From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Oct 1 00:26:08 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (Bob Schwier) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 01:26:08 -0400 Subject: Toshiba T1000 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1222838768.48e309f09528c@webmail.uslec.net> This came out of the blue. I have a T1200. Almost but that only matters with horseshoes and handgranades. bs Quoting David Griffith : > > I seem to recall someone asking for manuals for the Toshiba T1000. I have > the user and tech manuals on Ebay now (item 230296780064). If you're not > on speaking terms with Ebay, email me privately. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 1 00:32:16 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual media ideas (was RE: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover) In-Reply-To: References: <20080930194157.B63507@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 feedle at feedle.net wrote: > > > On a mostly-unrelated note, does anyone recall the spam-boink-cheese > > protocol? > > You mean that goofy one-off thing Brian Enigma, myself, and a couple of > other random hackers did one year at DEFCON (I think it was DEFCON 9, when > we were trying to run 300 bps Bell 103 across two plastic cups and > string)? > > Hardly Classic Computer related. I know... I was trying to mess with heads. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 1 00:35:25 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more free-for-shipping Message-ID: I have some more free-for-shipping stuff that I'm tired of looking at: Seven LM-D501W 5.25" magneto-optical disks by Panasonic Six LMR1300 5.25" magneto-optical 5.25" disks by Micro Design International I'm in California. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 1 00:37:45 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morrow MD3 claimed Message-ID: The first to reply has claimed the MD3. Thanks. I'll have some motherboards for sale later on. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 1 00:54:35 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:54:35 -0600 Subject: choppers In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:26:37 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > I would be interested in one of the VT100s with the graphics options: > models VT105, VT125, VT240, VT241, VT330, VT340, VT340+, retrographics > or other 3rd-party add-in boards providing graphics or other > interesting video processing functions. I realize this could be read as saying I think the VT2xx/VT3xx are models of VT100. Rest assured, this is not the case :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 1 01:12:48 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:12:48 -0600 Subject: Building a system inside a VT100 (was Re: choppers) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Oct 2008 04:30:53 -0000. <20081001043053.GB1961@usap.gov> Message-ID: In article <20081001043053.GB1961 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > I have little experience with newer terminals, but the one I've wanted > for a while is a GiGi (VK100?). I had seen one of these when it first came out. I think we got a poor demo at the time from what I read of the specifications now. I picked up a couple of these from ebay recently. Lately I've been reorganizing my collection in my basement and I now have a room full of quite a bit of graphics hardware: +----------+ +----------+ |Rack 1 | |Rack 2 | | | | | +----------+ +----------+ +-++---+ |5|| 6 | +---+ +-++---+ +---+ Rack| Rack| |3 | |4 | | | | | | | | | | | | | +---+ +---+ Rack 1: SGI Rack 1 2 Indigo^2 (Teal and Purple) 2 Indigo 3 Octane 3 Octane Rack 2: SGI Rack 2 2 O2, 1 Indy 3 Octane 3 Octane 3 Octane Rack 3: Work Rack Commodore 64, Apple ][e Tektronix 4051 Mac Classic, HP 2645A terminal VT220, HP 2640B terminal VT320, Beehive terminal Rack 4: Graphics Decades Rack 3 HP 1351A graphics generators, 1 DEC GIGI terminal Control Data 110 Microcomputer System (PLATO terminal) Terak Graphics Workstation SGI Personal Iris 4D/35, CDC Cyber 910, SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 5 - Tektronix 4010 terminal 6 - Tektronix 4114 terminal > Worst case, I suppose, is that it boots up headless and you know it's > up when the login prompt shows up on the screen. You can always put the PC connectors on the back and plug in a second keyboard, second monitor and a mouse into your "VT100". :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Oct 1 01:19:49 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (Bob Schwier) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 02:19:49 -0400 Subject: 1/2 height 5.25" floppy drives (was: BASF) In-Reply-To: <200809261301.36946.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20080926151824.A2F7855DC1@mail.wordstock.com> <200809261301.36946.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1222841989.48e316855c275@webmail.uslec.net> Quoting "Roy J. Tellason" : > On Friday 26 September 2008 12:37, David Griffith wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Sep 2008, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Jules Richardson > > > > > > > Now who was it that did those slimline 5.25" drives (slightly less > than > > > > 1/2 height) with the eject button (rather than handle) on the front? > My > > > > brain's trying to tell me those are BASF too*, but I could be wrong. I > > > > know I have some in storage back in the UK, and they're not very > > > > reliable either. > > > > > > I remember using Compaq computers that had floppy drives matching > > > your description. > > > > I remember 5.25"/3.5" combo drives that were like that for the 5.25" side. > > They were made by Teac, I think. > Epson SD700. I've got one in my spare parts bin. bs > I may even have one or two of those. And some of those 3.5" drives that > would > mount directly into a 5.25" bay... > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > > M Dakin > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 01:56:01 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 02:56:01 -0400 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Help / advice wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E31F01.7070706@gmail.com> John S wrote: > 2. Is there a source to download diagnostic floppy set, I hadn't known about these until today. I doubt you need standalone diagnostics. AIX comes with most of the diags already. Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 1 02:02:38 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:02:38 +0100 Subject: Next Compaq question, was: Re: Compaq Portable II flat CMOS battery In-Reply-To: <48E274D7.7030009@gjcp.net> References: <48E274D7.7030009@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48E3208E.3030108@gjcp.net> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Before I go hauling all those little Torx screws out (yes Tony I *do* > have proper Torx bits, unlike the last person to be inside it), can > anyone point me in the direction of the CMOS battery? > > I bet it's right underneath the monitor, or something. No, it's under the motherboard, one of those awful 3v lithiums. The next question is - what's that funny header underneath the motherboard for? It looks like it's wired as the 8-bit part of an expansion slot, but it's a bit hard to tell. I can't even see anywhere that a cable might come out, if it was something like a modem (which would make sense). Gordon From bert at brothom.nl Wed Oct 1 03:11:35 2008 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:11:35 +0200 Subject: Looking for Norsk Data ND-100 info. In-Reply-To: <48E32518.3030606@acc.umu.se> References: <48E1B476.2030801@acc.umu.se> <48E1E63C.4060000@brothom.nl> <48E32518.3030606@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <48E330B7.6050906@brothom.nl> > That is great news! > > That manual would probably help us a lot. Do you want to sell it, lend > it to me, scan it or just tease me with it? I don't think I want to sell it. I will lend it to you iff you digitize it and make it publicly available. An alternative might be for me to find a local digitizing company. If you would pay the costs I could send you the file. That might be faster perhaps? There is even a third alternative. I am long planning to buy a descent scanner with sheet feeder. I could do that now. But the book is somewhat wrinkled so I'm not sure if a sheet feeder could handle it well. Regards, Bert From bear at typewritten.org Wed Oct 1 03:47:02 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 01:47:02 -0700 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: <722928.70783.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <722928.70783.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C6A3B38-2EDE-456F-81A1-FF70344EF9EA@typewritten.org> On Sep 30, 2008, at 3:55 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I forget what their rationale was for not connecting the computer to > the hi-fi directly, but there was a warning that you could damage > the computer. (Probably, they were afraid of people hooking the > _speaker_ outputs into the poor little computer, instead of the line > out) The primary reason is that it will only work in a handful of specific configurations, and assuming that everybody with a turntable at their disposal is able to comply is not really a sound business decision. There are only a small number of standalone turntables I am aware of which had (have) normal line outputs. The vast majority of them require preamplification (and equalization) if they are to be used on a line input. The "phono" input on many amplifiers provides this preamplification; in this case the amplifier's line out or tape monitor output may be connected to the computer without consternation. It's possible that some all-in-one style units may have had line outputs to connect, for example, cassette tape recorders; I don't know. Perhaps most at the time had a cassette deck built in and thus only speaker outputs. ok bear From trebor72 at execpc.com Wed Oct 1 08:05:31 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:05:31 -0500 Subject: Downsizing My Collection Message-ID: <48E3759B.3040400@execpc.com> I just had a bout with Colon Cancer and will have to start downsizing my Computer collection which goes back to the early 80's got some S-100 stuff then PC's from the first thru XT, AT, 286, 386, 486's, 586, up to PII's I also have a complete IBM Series/! 110V half rack and full rack and spare External floppy. Plus 4978, some 3101's some TI 810 printers Cabling. Everything has to go. I also have a Pair of NEC APC's that run. Got two old IMS 8000 8080 cabinets. Have some S-100 cards and 8"drives. Got a Teletek Systemaster 65K CP/m SBC that used to work. even a boot floppy and Docs. THIS Has been sold Got a Mariposa Design 64K Static Memory Board plus Manual.; Even have a Tarbell SBC 8-16 that used to run Got all the Boots and Docs Boy Am I Puter POOR. Got a N* Horizon and a ton of Cards thats up for Grabs. Got a Cromemco ZPU and a 16K static card Plus an 8K ByteSaver fully populated sans Proms. Got a ADS Promblaster wating for one chip. Found one at Unicorn but need to sell something to get the Bread to purchase Got a Advanced Digital Corp S-100 MFM Controller but not sure of its Status. Got a Tarbell FDC 1011C and a 1011D Fully populated that ought to work Got two Vector Graphic CPUs and a Z80 Got some spare Compu-Pro cards 8085, Disk1 that needs fixing, Disk3, couple RAM22.s RAM17.s Interfacer 3 and 4 that I may put up if the price is right Looking for Shipping and Handling and a few Bucks to put my pocketbook to rest. I'd go the E-Bay Route but they only allow Credit cards for PayPal and I don't have one. I am strictly "Cash on the Barrel head" which includes Money Orders My E-Mail is good if anyone is interested. I am located just NW of Milwaukee in Menomonee Falls right off of US 41-45 for PICK-UPS I will be posting Vintage Computer Market Place and Comp.os.cpm and Maybe even E-BAY Bob in Wisconsin From afinney at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 1 10:09:48 2008 From: afinney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Finney) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:09:48 -0700 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A9FF346-1162-4F94-B922-91A92A2AAC9A@wfi-inc.com> The IIfx was (is?) a very capable web-browsing machine. Considering the initial cost of that unit, it seems silly to grade it in these terms...but I was using a IIfx up until 1999 or so for web/ftp/email and it was rock-solid. Aaron On Sep 30, 2008, at 8:53 PM, Tim McNerney wrote: >> I've been told using the compact Macs are an exercise in futility. >> But what about the Mac II's? (original II, IIx, IIfx, IIcx). >> >> I was just curious. > > > Right. For a pre-Mac II (e.g. Mac Plus), even Appletalk network > file sharing was an exercise in futility, let alone Ethernet. Until > the Quadras came along, an Ethernet interface was not built-in. You > had to buy a separate network card for you Mac II, and more likely > than not, it used "thin ethernet" (coax) not 10-base-T. I did use > some 10-base-T SCSI Ethernet adapters for non-expandable Mac laptops > around 1975, but they were barely up-to-snuff. > > While I was in grad school, from 1997 through 1999, I used a Quadra > 700 running IE for browsing the web. It seemed unbearably slow even > then, and I think I switched to Netscape because its rendering > engine was more efficient (IE often had to redraw the whole web page > twice--e.g. to figure out how big the images were, and on a 68040 > that was a noticeable delay). Plus a lots of things have changed > since then. I don't think I even needed a Flash plugins at the > time. Not that you would even think of watching a YouTube video on > a processor that slow. For email I used GNU emacs RMAIL running on > my group's Unix server. I had to abandon it when MIME became the > norm around 2000. > > Bottom line: For small values of "access the internet" the older > Macs were serviceable. By modern standards, the old browsers are > curiosities at best. But if you need to transfer some old files off > your old Mac, the connectivity is there, and I have been grateful > that FTP still works even today. > > --Tim -- Aaron C Finney Technical Services Manager WFI Incorporated 626-857-5599 x314 afinney at wfi-inc.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 1 10:33:40 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:33:40 -0700 Subject: GIGI Message-ID: <48E39854.5080106@bitsavers.org> >> I have little experience with newer terminals, but the one I've wanted >> for a while is a GiGi (VK100?). > > I had seen one of these when it first came out. I think we got a poor > demo at the time from what I read of the specifications now. > > I picked up a couple of these from ebay recently. Someone was looking for someone to dump the roms from a GIGI a few months ago. From drb at msu.edu Wed Oct 1 10:37:31 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:37:31 -0400 Subject: GIGI In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:33:40 PDT.) <48E39854.5080106@bitsavers.org> References: <48E39854.5080106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200810011537.m91FbV76021320@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Someone was looking for someone to dump the roms from a GIGI a few > months ago. I'll look into dumping mine. Anyone have a good working Barco they'd part with? De From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Oct 1 10:47:57 2008 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:47:57 +0200 Subject: Looking for Norsk Data ND-100 info. In-Reply-To: <48E1B476.2030801@acc.umu.se> References: <48E1B476.2030801@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <48E39BAD.9030509@update.uu.se> G?ran Axelsson wrote: > Hi! > > I'm looking for ND-100 information. A couple of my friends have > started to work on a ND-100 emulator and it is progressing fast... > fast to a point where we are lacking information about the inner > workings of the ND-100 CPU. > > Specifically we are looking for information on the real time clock > interrupt and micro code programming but other information (manuals, > schematics or programs) is also interesting. > > I currently have the following manuals that I'm transforming into > pdf:s as time permits. > > * ND-06.007 BIG MULTIPORT MEMORY SYSTEM > * ND-06.014 ND-100 REFERENCE MANUAL > * ND-06.016 ND-100 INPUT/OUTPUT SYSTEM > * ND-30.003.06A : SINTRAN III System Supervisor > * ND-30.025.02 : COSMOS Operator Guide > * ND-30.071.1 EN : ND-5000 Series User Guide > * ND-40.004.06 : Norsk Data Documentation Catalogue > * ND-40.012.1 EN : Information Pamphlet for Norsk Data Customers > * ND-60.014.01 : Page III-1-1 to A-9 (some pages missing) > * ND-60.046 TRACE ROUTINE > * ND-60.047.03A : NORD PL User's Guide > * ND-60.050.06 : SINTRAN III Users Guide > * ND-60.066.04 : ND Relocating Loader > * ND-60.074.01 : NORD-10 FORTRAN SYSTEM Reference Manual > * ND-60.088.03 : ND Screen Handling System > * ND-60.096.01 : Page 2-16 to D-3 > * ND-60.111.03 : ND TPS User's Guide > * ND-60.132.03 : SINTRAN III Timesharing/Batch Guide > * ND-60.151.02A : SINTRAN III Utilities Manual > * ND-60.158.3 EN : SYMBOLIC DEBUGGER User Guide (2 ex) > * ND-60.163.4 EN : COSMOS User Guide > * ND-60.196.01 : BRF-LINKER User Manual > * ND-60.230.01 : SINTRAN III J-version Release Informaton > * ND-60.236.1 EN : ND-100/500 SORT-MERGE User Guide > * ND-60.264.1 EN : SINTRAN III User Guide > * ND-63.001.02 : Introduction to NOTIS-WP > * ND-63.026.02 : NOTIS-CALC Handbok (in Swedish) > * ND-63.042.1 EN : NOTIS-WP M Release Information for new users > * ND Ring binder with cable diagrams > * Am201B/Am2901C Four-Bit Bipolar Microprocessor Slice, AMD. Page > 5-1 to 5-18 > * PASCAL : Instructions in Swedish for running Pascal on ND-100 > > > If you have anything outside of this list please let me know. I will > borrow for scanning, buy or trade anything of interest. > > The hardware we got access to is a ND-100 satellite, two ND-100 racks > with disks and 8 inch floppys in parts and a nonfunctional NORD-10 in > a rack. When time permits we will try to get it running. > > /G?ran Hello. Great to see som ND-action :) Personally I don't have any documentation for the ND machines. But we have some docs and some floppys at the Update computer club in Uppsala, I could dive into the storage room and see what it is. Burbas, a friend of mine (bcc:ed on this mail) has some ND-500 docs. I do have a ND-100/CX Compact in somewhat working condition. Burbas has a satellite (working) and a ND-500 (semi-working) with the ND-100 frontend. Another friend, Bjarni (also bcc:ed) has begun work on a 10/100 emulator and could maybe provide some input to your project. I guess you know about Tore: http://folk.uio.no/toresbe/nd/ and Jonny: http://www.sintran.com/sintran/sintran.html (<-- this site is actually run on a ND-5850) Last but not least, It would be great if you could share your documentation as you get it digitized. And if you have any kind of ND-media (such as SINTRAN :) that would be lovely to, but we could probably talk more about that off-list. Kind regards, Pontus. From scheefj at netscape.net Wed Oct 1 11:16:35 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:16:35 -0400 Subject: Need Tecmar JrCaptain power supply specs Message-ID: <48E3A263.70706@netscape.net> Hello everyone, My JrCaptain and its power supply (the wall wart) have become separated. I'm pretty sure I still have it, it's just that I don't know which one it is. Naturally none have the Tecmar name. I'm sure someone here has one of these, so would you please look at the wall wart or power brick and tell me what it says? Thanks, Jim From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 1 11:33:18 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:33:18 +0200 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E3A64E.5010309@bluewin.ch> > > Not the same thing, but I beleive that Elektor magazine sold vinyl > records of programs for their computer projects (the TV games computer, > Junior computer, SC/MP system, etc). These were programs only, no > human-type music on the same disk. Correct, I have one : it is translucent blue color. It contains some programs for their SC/MP machine. Never could afford the machine itself. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 1 12:05:27 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:05:27 -0400 Subject: GIGI In-Reply-To: <48E39854.5080106@bitsavers.org> References: <48E39854.5080106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48086AD6-7731-4440-B77A-C967AF15BC04@neurotica.com> On Oct 1, 2008, at 11:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I have little experience with newer terminals, but the one I've > wanted > >> for a while is a GiGi (VK100?). > > > > I had seen one of these when it first came out. I think we got a > poor > > demo at the time from what I read of the specifications now. > > > > I picked up a couple of these from ebay recently. > > Someone was looking for someone to dump the roms from a GIGI a few > months ago. I have a GIGI sitting at a friend's house in Boston, waiting to be shipped to me. When it arrives, I can dump those ROMs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 1 12:10:59 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:10:59 -0400 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <200809302316.43736.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20080929224454.GA5521@usap.gov> <200809301421.38472.rtellason@verizon.net> <200809302316.43736.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1693A5F3-92E1-4BCA-A6DF-FF808A3CD301@neurotica.com> On Sep 30, 2008, at 11:16 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> I wouldn't mind playing with some, if I had the appropriate >>> transformer and such to drive them with. Used to be that you >>> could get a >>> transformer with a nominal 125VAC output fairly easily, I >>> haven't looked >>> to see if they're out there these days. >> >> Ugh, line power. Much safer to power stuff from low-voltage DC. > > I've been messing around with line power ever since I was a kid. > (And all the > batteries were dead, anyhow. :-) Not that big of a deal, really. I've been messing with it for just as long, but still...ugh. It is just a pain to deal with, IMO. >> Try this step-up circuit; it is based on an MC34063 app note design >> which I've tuned a bit and adapted for current component >> availability: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/step-up-regulator.png >> >> It's cheap, easy to build, and powers Nixies nicely. > > Yeah, but a transformer, bridge rectifier, and filter cap is > *so* much > simpler. Ugh. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 1 12:21:19 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:21:19 +0100 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E3B18F.7010908@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Junior computer, SC/MP system, etc). These were programs only, no > human-type music on the same disk. You're not really into Ceephax Acid Crew, are you? Gordon From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 1 12:48:08 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:48:08 -0700 Subject: GIGI Message-ID: <48E3B7D8.4090708@bitsavers.org> The thread was "DEC Gigi/VK100 ROM images?" on comp.sys.dec in mid April started by Andy Valencia. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 1 14:27:29 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:27:29 +0100 Subject: VT220 Keyboard Error 4? In-Reply-To: <8nn4e4ta0c20b3858p2qn8hotf06tq5bk1@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 30/09/2008 18:20, "Charles" wrote: > I turned on my VT220 for the first time in nearly a year. The > screen says "VT220 Keyboard Error 4", all four green LED's (on the > top right of the keyboard) stay lit, and nothing appears on the > screen when I type. > > Disconnecting and reconnecting the coiled-cord between the > keyboard and the terminal causes a cursor block to appear on the > screen, but the keyboard is still locked and the LEDs stay on. > Power-cycling the terminal shows the same error message. > > However, the boot prompts from the 11/23+ are displayed normally, > so the receive part of the terminal at least is working. > > Where should I start looking, before replacing the keyboard? Start with the keyboard - error 4 means the VT can't detect it. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 1 14:43:14 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:43:14 +0100 Subject: GIGI In-Reply-To: <200810011537.m91FbV76021320@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 01/10/2008 16:37, "Dennis Boone" wrote: >> Someone was looking for someone to dump the roms from a GIGI a few >> months ago. > > I'll look into dumping mine. > > Anyone have a good working Barco they'd part with? I use a VT241 that also gets used on a VT240 and an Amiga 500. Not at the same time obviously. I also can dump ROMs from my own GIGI if UK versions are needed. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 1 16:03:09 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:03:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201322.11845.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I can't believe noone has mentioned this yet, but I have heard that during the (early?) 80's a Radio station did play computer programs for people to record off the radio. No, I don't know which radio station this was, nor do I have any evidence other than heresay. I was hoping someone here would have mention it, or could possibly confirm it. Yes, the Spectrum was big here in the UK. As a Spectrum user (and owner) I believe there were several models. Not sure if you'd count the Z80 & Z81 as part of the family, but I know there was the ZX Spectrum 48k, 128k, 128k +2, 128k +2a, and 128k +3. The +3 version used a floppy drive whereas all the previous version primarily used tapes. The Spectrum I own (put somewhere "safe" by my parents) had a built-in tapedeck to the right of the keyboard. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From: Tony Duell Subject: Re: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 11:27 PM > > Tom Peters wrote: > > > Most of these programs were written for the Sinclair Spectrum home=20 > > computer series. The Sinclair Spectrum was a relatively cheap home=20 > > computer system that used a television set as a monitor and loaded=20 > > programs from tapes. It thrived in England in the early 80=92s: > > s/England/the UK/ I beleive both versions are correct. The Spectrum sold well throughout the UK I believe. It also sold well in England, which is part of the UK. -tony From dfgraemedf at btinternet.com Wed Oct 1 16:10:25 2008 From: dfgraemedf at btinternet.com (graeme) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:10:25 +0100 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: <201322.11845.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <201322.11845.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3AAA72B21BE94E0D88722FC285C192FF@graemPC> Hi, A Dutch radio station broadcast programs in a form of basic that could be read by most machines at the time . The code was basicode and translation programs for the common systems worked well. regards Graeme ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Burton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:03 PM Subject: Re: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover I can't believe noone has mentioned this yet, but I have heard that during the (early?) 80's a Radio station did play computer programs for people to record off the radio. No, I don't know which radio station this was, nor do I have any evidence other than heresay. I was hoping someone here would have mention it, or could possibly confirm it. Yes, the Spectrum was big here in the UK. As a Spectrum user (and owner) I believe there were several models. Not sure if you'd count the Z80 & Z81 as part of the family, but I know there was the ZX Spectrum 48k, 128k, 128k +2, 128k +2a, and 128k +3. The +3 version used a floppy drive whereas all the previous version primarily used tapes. The Spectrum I own (put somewhere "safe" by my parents) had a built-in tapedeck to the right of the keyboard. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From: Tony Duell Subject: Re: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 11:27 PM > > Tom Peters wrote: > > > Most of these programs were written for the Sinclair Spectrum home=20 > > computer series. The Sinclair Spectrum was a relatively cheap home=20 > > computer system that used a television set as a monitor and loaded=20 > > programs from tapes. It thrived in England in the early 80=92s: > > s/England/the UK/ I beleive both versions are correct. The Spectrum sold well throughout the UK I believe. It also sold well in England, which is part of the UK. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 1 15:26:13 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:26:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <200809302258.00571.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 30, 8 10:58:00 pm Message-ID: > > On Tuesday 30 September 2008 16:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Didn't Motorola package one if its early mask-programmed RTL ROMs as > > a standard BCD-to-seven segment part? > > I remember that, but if you wanted more bits either way than the number of > bits the chip was set up for their app info had you cascading some absurd > number of them. I can't think of why you'd want to cascaed 7-segment decoders in this way, and wonder if you're thinking of the BCD <-> binary converter chips that wrre in the Texas TTL range (and which were, I think, programmed ROMs). 74184 and 74185 I think. Cascading thos certainly used a lot of said chips, and it was not obvious at first glance how to extend the cascading for an arbitrary word size. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 1 15:59:34 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:59:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: <200810010006.20720.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Oct 1, 8 00:06:20 am Message-ID: > > Very few HP classic desktop computer service manuals contain scheamtics. > > You might, if you are lucky, get PSU schemaitcs, but not for the > > processor, etc, sections. I am, of course, trying to remedy this... > > That stinks. Waht does? The fact that HP desktop computer service manuals are anything but, or the fact that I am trying to do soemthing about it? > > Anyway, the HP9836 'service manual' is a boardswapper guide, and contains > > very little information that's not obvious from 10 minutes of looking at > > the machine. There's a large section on running the diagnostics, with > > what to do for each error, and alas the latter is 'repalce the > > board'. And very often those error messages give a lot more information > > once you've learnt to interpret them > > I've seen some diagnostics that were like that, and some that were much more THe HP ones are pretty specific. For example, this machine had a graphics board problem when I got it, the error would be reported as 'graphics failed Meory failed at W : R : ' It was a good bet those 3 hex numbers were an address, the value written and the value read. THe only problem was that the W anmd R numbers were 32 bits each (8 hex digits), the 68010 processor used in this machine [1] has a 16 bit data bus. Worse than that, the graphics memory uses the low nybble of each byte only -- this is to allow writes to individual pixels, there being 4 bits per pixel. So even knowing which bits had failed it wasn't immediately obvious which memory chip to change. In fact, after much testing, I discovered that 4 of the hex digits are always 0 (these correspond to the nybbles that don't actually exist), the other 4 nybbles are either all parts of high bytes or parts of low bytes, and these 4 nybbles correspod to different RAM chips on the PCB (there are 16 4416 RAMs on the graphics board...) having figured that out, I desoldered the chip I thought it was complaining about, replaced it (with one raided from an old EGA grapghics card) and was pleased to see that the graphics now passed diagnoistics And no, none of that is in the HP service manual either. If they'd explained how to decode the error message it would have saved me an hour or so's work [1] Yes, I know everyone claims it's a 68000 processor. This machine has a 68010 and an MMU circuit. It's the latest (AFAIK) version of the CPU board. > specific, telling you what chip you might want to look at changing out. But > not since the early days of the Zenith Data systems stuff. The trouble with > that sort of diagnostics is that most of the machine needs to be working in > the first place, or they don't load and run. Printed versions of the same Yes, I don't really trust diagnostics either. After all, the device producing the report (the computer you're working on) is probably not working correctly (otherwise you'd not be repairing it) so how can you trust the diagnostic program output. I prefer to use a 'scope or logic analyser whenever possible (and when finding the memory problem I've just desicribed, I did look at the RAS/ CAS/ etc signals first...) [...] > I've often wondered why there wasn't some standard way of numbering those. > This sounds like the serial connectors that were out there (and I have a pile > of them) for different I/O adapters, if you didn't happen on the right ones > the serial ports just wouldn't work, and it wasn't obvious why. The craziest one I've ever seen is on the PERQ. It uses a DB25 connector for a GPIB port (I am told this is an IEC625 interface or soemthing). The problem is that it simply maps the pin numbers pin-pin so pins 1-24 are used and pin 25 in a N/C. This puts one of the date lines on the top row of the connector after the shield pin (pin 12 is shield, pin 13 is a data line), it also means you can't simply crib an DB25 plug and a 24 pin microribbon socket onto a piece of 24 wire cabel to make an adapter. ARGH! > > > The dismantling procedures in that manual are a little odd too. Anyone > > who can follow the procedure for removing and replacing the internal CRT > > of the 9826 and not end up dropping it or using choice language is a lot > > cleverer than I am. > > I've thought for a long time that "using choice language" was a part of being > a technician. :-) YEs, but I tend to reserve it for when it's really needed. Like when a 30kV supply flasehs over to my hand, or I drop the power transformer on my foot. > > There's one curious thing about that servic manual. It contains no > > schematics at all. Not even of the mains side of the PSU, which is > > trivially field-repairable. > > Then they really ought not to call it a service manual, per se. Or at least > not in my view of things. Exactly... For information, the PSU is bascially as follows. Mains comes in on a filtered IEC plug, goes through the mains fuse and then to the power switch under the keyboard. From there it goes to a little PCB screwed ot the (inide of the) back panel of the machine which contains a pair of ovltage sleector swithces. THese link to the primaries of the mains transformer (2 windings each 0-100-120V, the switches let you configure the machine for any of the normal mains voltages). There is a single centre-tapped secodnary on the transformer, this goes back ot the PCB which contains a pair of small diodes used to provide a power-fail indication to the optional battery backup unit and a large double-diode unit (TO3 can) for the main supply. The output of this is smoothed by what a frield of mine would call a CFE (Capacitor F-ing Enormous) to provide about 30V DC. This is fused (15A) and fed to an edge connector socket screwed to the bottom of the case. One set of fingers on the PSU regualtor PCB plug in there -- this PCB contains step-down switching regulators providing +5V, +12V and -12V. The outputs of those go to more edge figners which plug into a connector on the motherboard. The battery backup option was an 18V (?) NiCd (?) which fitted into a cavity on the bottom of the machine and which provided an input to the regulator board. There was an extra control PCB that munted under the (RH) disk drive, I know little about this apart from the fact that it appears to have contained an 8041 microcontroller. The battery unit is one of the rew options I don;t have for this series of machines. > > > Yup, if you crank it way up. > > > > I _think_ the only misadjustment that will cause this is the A1 ('screen > > grid') adjustment on the flyback transformer. Maybe setting the clamps > > way too low will do it. > > Screen controls are singular these days, but the early stuff used to have one Yes. In fact this CRT has separate cathode pins for each colour, but for all the other electrodes, corresponding ones are linked inside the CRT and brought out to one pin. > for each color. You'd flip a "service switch" which would give you just > horizontal lines on the screen, and either adjust for all white or if they Yes, ben there, done that. On this monitor, the 'clamp' presets on the video PCB prerform essentially the same function > weren't exactly overlapping for equal apparent brightness. Or in some stuff > till they just went out. > > (Snip...) > > > I wonder if it would be possible to get from some aftermarket suppliers? > > > I > > > > Als I doubt it. IT was not a common machine, so I doubt anyone bothered > > to make a nrw flyback for it. > > How certain can you be that they went and made one that was unique to that > machine? I cna't be. All it has on it is an HP part number (which is not a lot of help). I have no idea who actually made it, whether it was used in any other HP product, or whether it was actually a standard one that was re-labelled (although I think that is unlikely). > > Different strokes, etc. I suspect that with a little digging it might be > possible to find out who actually made that. They likely didn't make it > themselves. And an off-the-shelf product is much cheaper than one that's > custom-made for one specific product. THis is HP we're talking about... I would not be at all suprised if it was a custom part. And even if you could find who'd actaully made it, they may well be under contract to to release any details. Of course now it has no real commerical importance, but trying to find somebody at HP who (a) realises this and (b) is prepared publically to say so is going to ba lot more work that designing and making a flyback from scratch. > > (Snip...) [Description of monitor horizontal deflction system snipped] > > Of course this information is not in the HP manual... > > Of course... > > Did you figure most of it out or come across it somewhere else? Now, given that I've had this machine in many bits over the last few months what do you think? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 1 15:20:52 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:20:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT220 Keyboard Error 4? In-Reply-To: <8nn4e4ta0c20b3858p2qn8hotf06tq5bk1@4ax.com> from "Charles" at Sep 30, 8 12:20:45 pm Message-ID: > > I turned on my VT220 for the first time in nearly a year. The > screen says "VT220 Keyboard Error 4", all four green LED's (on the > top right of the keyboard) stay lit, and nothing appears on the > screen when I type. > > Disconnecting and reconnecting the coiled-cord between the > keyboard and the terminal causes a cursor block to appear on the > screen, but the keyboard is still locked and the LEDs stay on. > Power-cycling the terminal shows the same error message. > > However, the boot prompts from the 11/23+ are displayed normally, > so the receive part of the terminal at least is working. > > Where should I start looking, before replacing the keyboard? This normally means there's a short in the keyboard matrix, as if one key is stuck down. What I would do is open up the keyboard casing (there are 2 screws under the plastic posts/feet) and remove the internals. The keyboard has 3 'tails' that are fixed to the PCB by little metal clamp-things -- bend up the 4 tabs on the underside of each one and remove them. If you like you can remove the PCB from the keybaord frame by removing the clip on the top of the voltage regulator (TO220 package) and the screw through the LED mounting block. Connect the PCB to the terminal with the normal cable and power up. Most likely the LEDs will go through the normal sequence and there'll be no error message, which shows the fault is in the keyboard itself. This is a membrane contact unit with the key housings head-staked in place and with leaf springs under each key. I've never managed to get one back together after taking it apart :-(. I suppose you could chack if any of the keys are mechanically stuck (the keys themselves can be removed by carefully twising them to free the locking barbs), and see if any of the leaf springs look bent. But I guess it's most likely you'll be looking for a replacement keyboard switch assembly or a complete keyboard (in the latter case keep all the bits of the old one, just in case you ever find one with a problem on the PCB). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 1 15:24:06 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:24:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unusual media ideas (was RE: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Sep 30, 8 07:05:39 pm Message-ID: > > I also recall one of the magazines from the early days championing > computer-readable strips printed in the magazine, similar to a UPC code > but obviously much longer. Byte? Kilobaud? It's not coming up from > long-term archive.... There was a barcode reader 'wand' for the HP41 calculator, and later tHP41 'solution books' (compilations of user-submitted programs came with barcodes for all the programs in that book so you could scan them in rather than typing them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 1 16:12:58 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:12:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: <9C6A3B38-2EDE-456F-81A1-FF70344EF9EA@typewritten.org> from "r.stricklin" at Oct 1, 8 01:47:02 am Message-ID: > > > On Sep 30, 2008, at 3:55 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > I forget what their rationale was for not connecting the computer to > > the hi-fi directly, but there was a warning that you could damage > > the computer. (Probably, they were afraid of people hooking the > > _speaker_ outputs into the poor little computer, instead of the line > > out) > > > The primary reason is that it will only work in a handful of specific > configurations, and assuming that everybody with a turntable at their > disposal is able to comply is not really a sound business decision. > > There are only a small number of standalone turntables I am aware of > which had (have) normal line outputs. The vast majority of them > require preamplification (and equalization) if they are to be used on > a line input. The "phono" input on many amplifiers provides this > preamplification; in this case the amplifier's line out or tape > monitor output may be connected to the computer without consternation. I cna think of a problem with doing that. If I remmeebr the CoCo well, it was fairly 'touchy' about the inptu signal level on the cassette port. No worse than most otehr machines, but you still had to fiddle with the volume control on the cassette recorder to get it to load. On 99% of hi-fi amplifiers, the line out/tape out sockets are not affected by the setting of the volume control. So there's no easy way to adjust that level. Copying the record to a cassette and then loading it in the normal way lets you use the cassette recorder volume control to do this. Of course it's not hard to rig up a potentiometer and if necessary an op-amp to boost the signal (I seem to remember the CoCo likes about 1V on the input, most tape outputs on hi-fi amplifers are around 100mV). But it might be more work than using a cassette recorder. I suspect dividing down the speaker output of the record player (phongrpah?) (a couple of resisotrs) and feeding that into the cassette input would work well. But if you got it wrong anf the amplifier was a high-power one it might fry the CoCo's input. And if the amplifier was one of those bridge-output ones (neither side of the speaker groudned), you might fry _that_. -tony From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Wed Oct 1 16:21:45 2008 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:21:45 +0100 Subject: VT220 Keyboard Error 4? In-Reply-To: <8nn4e4ta0c20b3858p2qn8hotf06tq5bk1@4ax.com> References: <8nn4e4ta0c20b3858p2qn8hotf06tq5bk1@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB0174077E@exch-be09.exchange.local> 0) The book says that during self test: - all keyboard indicators turn on and off - the bell tone sounds 1) In my experience the problem is with (in order of likelihood): - bad keyboard, unless the cable / connections are a repair - bad connections : bent out of shape or oxidised - cable defect 2) Four LEDS lit indicates a sad keyboard, I presume the 8051 sets the LEDs on reset and clears them on receipt of self test traffic from the main unit +) I can't offer any comment on the self-test traffic to/from the keyboard. Perhaps the place to start investigating, the signalling is RS-423, especially with a known good unit for comparison. The technical manual is on BitSavers. HTH Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Sent: 30 September 2008 18:21 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: VT220 Keyboard Error 4? I turned on my VT220 for the first time in nearly a year. The screen says "VT220 Keyboard Error 4", all four green LED's (on the top right of the keyboard) stay lit, and nothing appears on the screen when I type. Disconnecting and reconnecting the coiled-cord between the keyboard and the terminal causes a cursor block to appear on the screen, but the keyboard is still locked and the LEDs stay on. Power-cycling the terminal shows the same error message. However, the boot prompts from the 11/23+ are displayed normally, so the receive part of the terminal at least is working. Where should I start looking, before replacing the keyboard? thanks for any hints -Charles From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 1 16:29:45 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:29:45 +0100 Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c91fa9$ad0cc880$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Message-ID: <48E3EBC9.10504@philpem.me.uk> > On Sep 26, 2008, at 3:29 AM, wrote: >> I have this manual and have scanned in 40 pages but its allready 125 >> megs and its 400 plus pages most emails will not allow >> this much of an attachment got any ideas? You're doing something wrong... Probably scanning at too high a resolution, or scanning in colour or high-bit-depth greyscale (which for >80% of computer documentation is completely unnecessary). A few hints: * Scan in black and white, 300dpi. If you absolutely have to have greyscale, turn Descreening on and reduce to 16 shades of grey. Most of the time even greyscale is unnecessary -- most printing technologies don't do true greyscale (read up on dithering and halftoning if you're interested). As long as you scan at an integer multiple of the print resolution (and set up Descreening properly), you'll get a perfectly good scan. * Most mass-printing technologies only go up to 150dpi. Scanning at much beyond 300dpi is a waste of time. * TIFF with LZW or Zip compression usually does a pretty good job of greyscale, and TIFF with CCITT Group 4 FAX encoding works wonders on B&W. Think 40kbytes per page. IrfanView can handle all of these formats and batch-convert from just about any image format *to* just about any image format. If you're using *nix, install ImageMagick and "man mogrify". * If you want a PDF file, grab a copy of Eric Smith's "tumble" program: -- it converts a directory full of TIFFs into a single PDF. It's a little long in the tooth, but still about the best tool for the job. I've managed to compile it for Windows (using MinGW) - if there's any interest, I'll see if I can dig out the executable. I'm willing to host the resulting scan (although I suspect Al Kossow / Bitsavers might be interested as well) but not if it's a 1.2GB file... I'd be happy to take a look at one or two scanned pages and try and offer some assistance though. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Oct 1 16:29:21 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:29:21 -0500 Subject: VT220 Keyboard Error 4? In-Reply-To: References: <8nn4e4ta0c20b3858p2qn8hotf06tq5bk1@4ax.com> from "Charles" atSep 30, 8 12:20:45 pm Message-ID: Speaking of keyboard trouble: do NOT attempt to wash an LK201 keyboard in any kind of liquid. The "switches" are just membrane thingies, and they are not even close to liquid-tight. Any washing will put liquid inside your keyboard, wrecking it. I found this out the hard way (after spilling stuff on the keyboard -- washing it only made things worse). It may be possible to dismantle those switches, but it looks hard. It may be worse than that... paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 1 16:32:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:32:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: <201322.11845.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at Oct 1, 8 09:03:09 pm Message-ID: > > > I can't believe noone has mentioned this yet, but I have heard that during = > the (early?) 80's a Radio station did play computer programs for people to = > record off the radio. Indeed. > > No, I don't know which radio station this was, nor do I have any evidence o= > ther than heresay. It's certainly correct, I remember recording and using some of those programs. There was a standard called 'Basicode' (or actually Basicode-2). The idea was to get round the incompatibilities between the various (BASIC-programmable) home computers of the time, both differences in the cassette data format and the basic language itself (for example 'clear the screeen' might be 'HOME', 'CLS' or printing a control character depeding on the machine). The Basicode standard used a 1200 baud cassette format using 2 tones -- 1200Hz and 2400Hz. And there aws a set of smachine-specific subroutines to d things like clear the screen, move the cursor, plot a pixel and so on. These all had line numbers <1000 -- your program started at line 1000, and there were fixed entry points for each subroutine. So rather than writing CLS to clear the screen (or whatever), you used GOSUB 100 (I think that was the line). You bought (at least in the UK) a cassette where side 1 cotnained machine-specific traslator/subrotuing programs -- for the PET, BBC Micro, TRS-80, etc, Siee 2 contained various demo programs in Basicode. You lioaded the appropriate translator for your machine and could then load a Basicode program (either from side 2 of the tape or one you'd recorded off the radio). I beleive the idea started in the Netherlands, and the radio programme over there was called 'Hobbyscoop' (probably spelt incorrectly). In the UK, there was a raido programme on Radio 4 (one of the BBC stations) called 'The Chip SHop'. The Basicode programs were called 'The Chip Shop Takeaway service' and were transmitted in the middle of the night, I think the same program on firday, saturday, sunday of each week, so you could have another go if it didn't work first time). I cna well rememebr staying up to record them. For non-UKers, I should perhaps explain the pun in the radio programme title. In the UK, the common, non-computer meaning of 'chip' is a strip of fired potato, (as in 'Fries' across the Pond). A 'chip shop' is a place where you buy food with chips -- things like 'fish and chips', a common takeaway meal here. And of course that explains the 'takeway service' pun. I also believe that some programs for the BBC micro were transmitted as pages on the BBC's (TV company) teletext system -- probably pages with hex digits in the page number, whioch could not be displayed on most TVs. There were at least 2 teletext decoders that connected to the BBC micro, and which presumably could download said programs. Unfortunately I didn't have a BBC micro at the time and by the time I got round to experimenting with teletext decoders, such programs were no longer being transmitted. -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 1 16:38:09 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:38:09 -0400 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810011738.09467.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 01 October 2008 16:26, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Tuesday 30 September 2008 16:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Didn't Motorola package one if its early mask-programmed RTL ROMs as > > > a standard BCD-to-seven segment part? > > > > I remember that, but if you wanted more bits either way than the number > > of bits the chip was set up for their app info had you cascading some > > absurd number of them. > > I can't think of why you'd want to cascaed 7-segment decoders in this > way, and wonder if you're thinking of the BCD <-> binary converter chips > that wrre in the Texas TTL range (and which were, I think, programmed > ROMs). 74184 and 74185 I think. Whoops, you're right, that's exactly what I was thinking of, though I'm pretty sure I was also remembering Motorola... Perhaps one of those two companies was second-sourcing the other. All of my databooks are currently in boxes, and I'm not even sure which ones are in what boxes, a situation that I'm hoping to correct somtime soon, so I can't verify my recollection on this. > Cascading thos certainly used a lot of said chips, and it was not obvious > at first glance how to extend the cascading for an arbitrary word size. Yes. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 1 16:41:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:41:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT220 Keyboard Error 4? In-Reply-To: from "Paul_Koning@dell.com" at Oct 1, 8 04:29:21 pm Message-ID: > It may be possible to dismantle those switches, but it looks hard. It > may be worse than that... Dismantling one is easy -- I've mentioned how to remove the PCB and he kyecaps. After that you ahve to cut wasy all the heatstakes, at which point the key housings nad leaf springs fall off and you can sepaerate the memberane layers. Ressambling one is hard. Very hard. So hard that I never managed to do it. The problem is that there's not enough length left in the heatstake pins to form them over again. The walls of the key housings are not thick enough to drill them out and assemble them with screws. DEC never supplied spares for the keybaord switch assembly (even when the LK201 was a current product) so you couldn't get new hosuings with long heatstake posts and use those. And the fdxing has to be firm enoguh to reset the forces from the leaf springs. -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 1 16:53:03 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 23:53:03 +0200 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:32 PM To: Subject: Re: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover >> I can't believe noone has mentioned this yet, but I have heard that >> during >> the (early?) 80's a Radio station did play computer programs for people >> to record off the radio. > > Indeed. > >> >> No, I don't know which radio station this was, nor do I have any evidence >> other than heresay. > > It's certainly correct, I remember recording and using some of those > programs. > > [... snip lots of good info ...] > > -tony As usual, the post from Tony contains lots of information, and correct! Nope Tony, you did not spell the name of the program wrong, its name was "Hobbyscoop". I remember that my late father used a C=64 and recorded Basicode from IIRC the station called "Radio 5". He taped it on cassette, and it worked just fine. This was in the 1983-1985 time frame. - Henk, PA8PDP. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 1 05:05:10 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: <201322.11845.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <201322.11845.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I can't believe noone has mentioned this yet, but I have heard that > during the (early?) 80's a Radio station did play computer programs for > people to record off the radio. > No, I don't know which radio station this was, nor do I have any > evidence other than heresay. I was hoping someone here would have > mention it, or could possibly confirm it. KJR in Seattle, Washington did this on Sunday afternoons. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 1 16:55:21 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:55:21 -0400 Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810011755.21229.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 01 October 2008 16:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Very few HP classic desktop computer service manuals contain > > > scheamtics. You might, if you are lucky, get PSU schemaitcs, but not > > > for the processor, etc, sections. I am, of course, trying to remedy > > > this... > > > > That stinks. > > Waht does? The fact that HP desktop computer service manuals are anything > but, or the fact that I am trying to do soemthing about it? The former of course, and I don't know why you'd ask me such a silly question... > > > Anyway, the HP9836 'service manual' is a boardswapper guide, and > > > contains very little information that's not obvious from 10 minutes of > > > looking at the machine. There's a large section on running the > > > diagnostics, with what to do for each error, and alas the latter is > > > 'repalce the board'. And very often those error messages give a > > > lot more information once you've learnt to interpret them > > > > I've seen some diagnostics that were like that, and some that were much > > more > > THe HP ones are pretty specific. For example, this machine had a > graphics board problem when I got it, the error would be reported as > 'graphics failed Meory failed at W : R : number>' Not bad. > It was a good bet those 3 hex numbers were an address, the value written > and the value read. THe only problem was that the W anmd R numbers were > 32 bits each (8 hex digits), the 68010 processor used in this machine [1] > has a 16 bit data bus. Worse than that, the graphics memory uses the low > nybble of each byte only -- this is to allow writes to individual pixels, > there being 4 bits per pixel. So even knowing which bits had failed it > wasn't immediately obvious which memory chip to change. At least it was possible to figure it out. > In fact, after much testing, I discovered that 4 of the hex digits are > always 0 (these correspond to the nybbles that don't actually exist), the > other 4 nybbles are either all parts of high bytes or parts of low bytes, > and these 4 nybbles correspod to different RAM chips on the PCB (there > are 16 4416 RAMs on the graphics board...) having figured that out, I > desoldered the chip I thought it was complaining about, replaced it (with > one raided from an old EGA grapghics card) and was pleased to see that > the graphics now passed diagnoistics It's a nice feeling, isn't it? I miss that lately. > And no, none of that is in the HP service manual either. If they'd > explained how to decode the error message it would have saved me an hour > or so's work > > [1] Yes, I know everyone claims it's a 68000 processor. This machine has > a 68010 and an MMU circuit. It's the latest (AFAIK) version of the CPU > board. > > > specific, telling you what chip you might want to look at changing out. > > But not since the early days of the Zenith Data systems stuff. The > > trouble with that sort of diagnostics is that most of the machine needs > > to be working in the first place, or they don't load and run. Printed > > versions of the same > > Yes, I don't really trust diagnostics either. After all, the device > producing the report (the computer you're working on) is probably not > working correctly (otherwise you'd not be repairing it) so how can you > trust the diagnostic program output. I guess it all depends on the nature of the fault. > I prefer to use a 'scope or logic analyser whenever possible (and when > finding the memory problem I've just desicribed, I did look at the RAS/ CAS/ > etc signals first...) The scope was my most-used tool for that sort of thing, and I never had the use of a logic analyzer, mostly working for myself I could never justify the expense. Lots of positive aspects to being self-employed, but there were occasional negative aspects too. > [...] > > > I've often wondered why there wasn't some standard way of numbering > > those. This sounds like the serial connectors that were out there (and I > > have a pile of them) for different I/O adapters, if you didn't happen on > > the right ones the serial ports just wouldn't work, and it wasn't > > obvious why. > > The craziest one I've ever seen is on the PERQ. It uses a DB25 connector > for a GPIB port (I am told this is an IEC625 interface or soemthing). The > problem is that it simply maps the pin numbers pin-pin so pins 1-24 are > used and pin 25 in a N/C. This puts one of the date lines on the top row > of the connector after the shield pin (pin 12 is shield, pin 13 is a data > line), it also means you can't simply crib an DB25 plug and a 24 pin > microribbon socket onto a piece of 24 wire cabel to make an adapter. ARGH! Even with the standard pin and serial connectors there are apparently enough different ways to put them together to cause problems. > > > The dismantling procedures in that manual are a little odd too. Anyone > > > who can follow the procedure for removing and replacing the internal > > > CRT of the 9826 and not end up dropping it or using choice language is > > > a lot cleverer than I am. > > > > I've thought for a long time that "using choice language" was a part of > > being a technician. :-) > > YEs, but I tend to reserve it for when it's really needed. Like when a > 30kV supply flasehs over to my hand, or I drop the power transformer on > my foot. Yes, that sounds like situations that would call for it all right. But that may be a bit more reserved than I tend to be. :-) > > > There's one curious thing about that servic manual. It contains no > > > schematics at all. Not even of the mains side of the PSU, which is > > > trivially field-repairable. > > > > Then they really ought not to call it a service manual, per se. Or at > > least not in my view of things. > > Exactly... > > For information, the PSU is bascially as follows. Mains comes in on a > filtered IEC plug, goes through the mains fuse and then to the power > switch under the keyboard. From there it goes to a little PCB screwed ot > the (inide of the) back panel of the machine which contains a pair of > ovltage sleector swithces. THese link to the primaries of the mains > transformer (2 windings each 0-100-120V, the switches let you configure > the machine for any of the normal mains voltages). There is a single > centre-tapped secodnary on the transformer, this goes back ot the PCB > which contains a pair of small diodes used to provide a power-fail > indication to the optional battery backup unit and a large double-diode > unit (TO3 can) for the main supply. I don't think I've seen many diodes in TO-3 packages. Plastic ones, yeah. > The output of this is smoothed by what a frield of mine would call a CFE > (Capacitor F-ing Enormous) to provide about 30V DC. This is fused (15A) and > fed to an edge connector socket screwed to the bottom of the case. One set > of fingers on the PSU regualtor PCB plug in there -- this PCB contains > step-down switching regulators providing +5V, +12V and -12V. The outputs of > those go to more edge figners which plug into a connector on the > motherboard. I notice that edge connectors are a lot less common than they used to be. I wonder if there are reliability issues by comparison with other typies? > The battery backup option was an 18V (?) NiCd (?) which fitted into a > cavity on the bottom of the machine and which provided an input to the > regulator board. That'd be what, 15 cells? Yikes! > There was an extra control PCB that munted under the (RH) disk drive, I know > little about this apart from the fact that it appears to have contained an > 8041 microcontroller. The battery unit is one of the rew options I don;t > have for this series of machines. > > > > > Yup, if you crank it way up. > > > > > > I _think_ the only misadjustment that will cause this is the A1 > > > ('screen grid') adjustment on the flyback transformer. Maybe setting > > > the clamps way too low will do it. > > > > Screen controls are singular these days, but the early stuff used to > > have one > > Yes. In fact this CRT has separate cathode pins for each colour, but for > all the other electrodes, corresponding ones are linked inside the CRT > and brought out to one pin. I'm pretty sure that was one of the changes when they moved away from the original delta arrangement. > > for each color. You'd flip a "service switch" which would give you just > > horizontal lines on the screen, and either adjust for all white or if > > they > > Yes, ben there, done that. > > On this monitor, the 'clamp' presets on the video PCB prerform > essentially the same function Ok. > > weren't exactly overlapping for equal apparent brightness. Or in some > > stuff till they just went out. > > > > (Snip...) > > > > > > I wonder if it would be possible to get from some aftermarket > > > > suppliers? I > > > > > > Als I doubt it. IT was not a common machine, so I doubt anyone bothered > > > to make a nrw flyback for it. > > > > How certain can you be that they went and made one that was unique to > > that machine? > > I cna't be. All it has on it is an HP part number (which is not a lot of > help). I have no idea who actually made it, whether it was used in any > other HP product, or whether it was actually a standard one that was > re-labelled (although I think that is unlikely). That's what I was wondering, if there were any possible way to research that sort of thing. > > Different strokes, etc. I suspect that with a little digging it might > > be possible to find out who actually made that. They likely didn't make > > it themselves. And an off-the-shelf product is much cheaper than one > > that's custom-made for one specific product. > > THis is HP we're talking about... Which is not the same as saying it were say, IBM. :-) > I would not be at all suprised if it was a custom part. And even if you > could find who'd actaully made it, they may well be under contract to to > release any details. Of course now it has no real commerical importance, but > trying to find somebody at HP who (a) realises this and (b) is prepared > publically to say so is going to ba lot more work that designing and making > a flyback from scratch. Maybe so. And I could be totally wrong about this, but I just feel like there should be some way to characterize those, somehow. Maybe not, but maybe I'll play around with the idea at some point. > > (Snip...) > > [Description of monitor horizontal deflction system snipped] > > > > Of course this information is not in the HP manual... > > > > Of course... > > > > Did you figure most of it out or come across it somewhere else? > > Now, given that I've had this machine in many bits over the last few > months what do you think? If I had that much of an idea I wouldn't be asking now, would I? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 1 17:19:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:19:05 -0700 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <200810011738.09467.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <200810011738.09467.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48E394E9.10039.1B4BE6F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2008 at 17:38, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Whoops, you're right, that's exactly what I was thinking of, though I'm > pretty sure I was also remembering Motorola... > > Perhaps one of those two companies was second-sourcing the other. > > All of my databooks are currently in boxes, and I'm not even sure which ones > are in what boxes, a situation that I'm hoping to correct somtime soon, so > I can't verify my recollection on this. Okay, I dug out my Moto databook. Yes, Moto had a 7-segment decoder that was derived from the XC170 ROM and labeled MC4039 (MTTL not MRTL). Other notable MTTL circuits from the same memory array were the MC4038 1-of-8 demux, the MC4040 2-of-8 decoder and the MC4041 Hamming code generator/detector. On the subject of ganging these things, appnote AN446 has some interesting examples. A binary to 1-of-64 decoder using 9 of the ROMS, for example. But the most relevant is a circuit for driving a 16-segment alphanumeric display using 5 ROMs driven from 6 bits. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 1 12:47:51 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:47:51 -0700 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <1693A5F3-92E1-4BCA-A6DF-FF808A3CD301@neurotica.com> References: <20080929224454.GA5521@usap.gov>, <200809302316.43736.rtellason@verizon.net>, <1693A5F3-92E1-4BCA-A6DF-FF808A3CD301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48E35557.31967.1A5395A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2008 at 13:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yeah, but a transformer, bridge rectifier, and filter cap is > > *so* much > > simpler. > > Ugh. ;) I was under the impression that old "B+ supply" transformers were getting hard to find. Not so, apparently. I popped open a 1990's stereo receiver that was about to hit the junkpile to see what might be salvaged (one of the hybrid output ICs had fizzled and would cost more to replace than the receiver was worth)--and found a 70-0-70 (140vct) transformer in the power supply. Perfect for a Nixie application. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Oct 1 18:51:47 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:51:47 -0600 Subject: Need Tecmar JrCaptain power supply specs In-Reply-To: <48E3A263.70706@netscape.net> References: <48E3A263.70706@netscape.net> Message-ID: <48E40D13.8030806@brutman.com> Jim Scheef wrote: > Hello everyone, > > My JrCaptain and its power supply (the wall wart) have become separated. > I'm pretty sure I still have it, it's just that I don't know which one > it is. Naturally none have the Tecmar name. I'm sure someone here has > one of these, so would you please look at the wall wart or power brick > and tell me what it says? > > Thanks, > Jim > > Input: 120 VAC, 60Hz, 18 watts Output: 8.5 VAC, 1.35A, 11.5 VA Mike From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 1 19:41:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:41:38 -0400 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <48E35557.31967.1A5395A2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20080929224454.GA5521@usap.gov> <1693A5F3-92E1-4BCA-A6DF-FF808A3CD301@neurotica.com> <48E35557.31967.1A5395A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200810012041.38906.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 01 October 2008 13:47, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Oct 2008 at 13:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Yeah, but a transformer, bridge rectifier, and filter cap is > > > *so* much > > > simpler. > > > > Ugh. ;) > > I was under the impression that old "B+ supply" transformers were > getting hard to find. Not so, apparently. I popped open a 1990's > stereo receiver that was about to hit the junkpile to see what might > be salvaged (one of the hybrid output ICs had fizzled and would cost > more to replace than the receiver was worth)--and found a 70-0-70 > (140vct) transformer in the power supply. Perfect for a Nixie > application. Sounds good. And that's why I throw almost *nothing* away. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Oct 1 20:24:17 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:24:17 -0400 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure Message-ID: <31701.1222910657@mini> A friend of a friend has an old xenix machine; Compaq DeskPro 386 running Xenix. He shut if off after running for years and it won't boot because the cmos battery is dead. The disk is an ESDI drive attached to a Compaq ESDI/FLPY controller (copyright 1989) ISA bus card. He says can't see any way to enter a "setup" mode in the BIOS. Anyone know how to fix this? apparently it has his Alfa Romeo motor club data on it (so it's clearly +10yo :-) Anyone know if the xenix fs can be mounted on linux? (I doubt it, but I thought I'd ask) -brad From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 1 20:55:25 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:55:25 +0000 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <31701.1222910657@mini> Message-ID: <100220080155.10696.48E42A0C000B5C9A000029C822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > apparently it has his Alfa Romeo motor club data on it (so it's clearly > +10yo :-) I used to have one of those. I really miss that car. > Anyone know if the xenix fs can be mounted on linux? (I doubt it, but > I thought I'd ask) Don't quote me on this, but somewhere in the back of my head I have a vague memory that Xenix used the same file system layout as System V. If that is true, then you should be able to. I don't see a Xenix specific one in the source tree, so if it's not the same as one of the others, then you're probably out of luck unless you want to write one, which might not be too bad, especially since you only need to read and not write. BLS From tonym at compusource.net Wed Oct 1 21:03:19 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony Mori) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:03:19 -0400 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure References: <31701.1222910657@mini> Message-ID: <000801c92433$0ad7d9e0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:24 PM Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure > > A friend of a friend has an old xenix machine; Compaq DeskPro 386 > running Xenix. He shut if off after running for years and it won't > boot because the cmos battery is dead. > > The disk is an ESDI drive attached to a Compaq ESDI/FLPY controller > (copyright 1989) ISA bus card. > > He says can't see any way to enter a "setup" mode in the BIOS. > > Anyone know how to fix this? > Those old-school machines usually required a setup disk, unlike regular clones. I remember using a program naemd something like 'GSETUP.EXE" or .COM on a Compaq Portable III, and it worked fine. I think all you need is a bootable DOS disk, with a generic setup program, and set up the HD drive type in the BIOS. Changing the CMOS battery would be a good idea, so you don;t have to do the same process at every power-off. Tony From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 1 21:20:11 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:20:11 -0400 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <000801c92433$0ad7d9e0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <31701.1222910657@mini> <000801c92433$0ad7d9e0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: <200810012220.11738.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 01 October 2008 22:03, Tony Mori wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brad Parker" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:24 PM > Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure > > > A friend of a friend has an old xenix machine; Compaq DeskPro 386 > > running Xenix. He shut if off after running for years and it won't > > boot because the cmos battery is dead. > > > > The disk is an ESDI drive attached to a Compaq ESDI/FLPY controller > > (copyright 1989) ISA bus card. > > > > He says can't see any way to enter a "setup" mode in the BIOS. > > > > Anyone know how to fix this? > > Those old-school machines usually required a setup disk, unlike regular > clones. > I remember using a program naemd something like 'GSETUP.EXE" or .COM on a > Compaq Portable III, and it worked fine. > I think all you need is a bootable DOS disk, with a generic setup program, > and set up the HD drive type in the BIOS. Some of those also had a setup partition on the HD. If a dos or similar disk gets booted and fdisk is run (or linux equivalents) to see what's there, it may be possible to tell, then all you need to do after battery replacement is to get into it and tell it that what it finds in the hardware is okay. In terms of the one old machine like that we have, what I'm remembering is that somewhere in the powerup sequence the cursor changes from an underline to a block and ends up over on the right side of the screen. I'm not 100% sure on the keystroke but try looking for that behavior and hitting F10 when it does that. If there's a setup partition in place that should dump you into it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 1 21:58:38 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 04:58:38 +0200 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> In addition to radio and teletext, there was also a TV program in Germany that transmitted software by burying the data in the first few scanlines of the videosignal. The circuit to recover the datastream was quite simple. While the broadcast was running you would see a small box in the upperleft corner where you could actually see the data go by. Jos From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Oct 1 22:06:50 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 23:06:50 -0400 Subject: SS10s and SS20s free for local pickup or $10 + actual ship Message-ID: <48E43ACA.1040808@hawkmountain.net> I have 3 SS20s and 4 SS10s. Mostly complete. All have one or more processors (ranging from SM41 to SM61), I believe all have RAM, and some have one or more drives. No GFX as these were last used for servers. These are free for pickup in Sharon, MA 02067, or I can bring them with me to work in Cambridge, MA 02140 (on the same road as Alewife T station). If you want one shipped... $10 + actual ship with the $10 to cover the materials/time to pack and haul to PO/FedEx/UPS/etc. If these don't move before that dumpster leaves here (1-2 weeks from Friday), then I'll pull the CPUs, RAM, and drives, and heave them into the dumpster. The SS20s are all Aurora I chasis. I don't recall any having CD rom drives... one or two fo the might have floppy drives. -- Curt From gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz Wed Oct 1 22:12:59 2008 From: gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz (Gavin Melville) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:12:59 +1300 Subject: SS10s and SS20s free for local pickup or $10 + actual ship References: <48E43ACA.1040808@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <6BF8C93A8FE944368C35B582639ECEF8@acclipsegavin> Weren't SS10's and SS20's missiles -- the SS10 price seems OK -- it was a piece of junk, but the SS20's were nuclear and this seems a bit cheap?? http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/ss20.jpg :-) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 4:06 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: SS10s and SS20s free for local pickup or $10 + actual ship > I have 3 SS20s and 4 SS10s. Mostly complete. All have one or more > processors (ranging from SM41 to SM61), I believe all have RAM, > and some have one or more drives. No GFX as these were last > used for servers. > > These are free for pickup in Sharon, MA 02067, or I can bring > them with me to work in Cambridge, MA 02140 (on the same > road as Alewife T station). > > If you want one shipped... $10 + actual ship with the $10 to > cover the materials/time to pack and haul to PO/FedEx/UPS/etc. > > If these don't move before that dumpster leaves here (1-2 weeks > from Friday), then I'll pull the CPUs, RAM, and drives, and heave > them into the dumpster. > > The SS20s are all Aurora I chasis. I don't recall any having CD > rom drives... one or two fo the might have floppy drives. > > -- Curt > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 1 22:41:10 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:41:10 -0600 Subject: Two more Craters & Freighters happy experiences Message-ID: I recently had two more items packed and delivered to me by Craters & Freighters. Holy shit, what a difference it makes with that company. A Tektronix 4170 local graphics processor and an Evans & Sutherland PS 390 base unit arrived with no scratches, no falling apart pallets and everything intact. The tally so far: + seller freight packed deskside SGI Onyx + C&F packed lot from dovebid (Tektronix graphics terminals) + C&F packed Megatek graphics terminal + C&F packed E&S PS390 + C&F packed Tektronix 4170 - CTS packed deskside SGI Onyx & Octanes - adcom worldwide packed SGI Octanes, O2s and monitors In the case of CTS/adcom worldwide, the only reason that I used them and not C&F is that there wasn't a C&F that could go to Reading, PA and pick up the stuff from a dovebid auction. C&F may not be the cheapest; to be honest, when C&F service is available I don't even bother to check with other freight shipping service companies. However, what good does it do you to save a few dollars on shipping and have something arrive smashed or cosmetically ruined because of poor packing? I heartily recommend Craters & Freighters for your packing and freight shipping needs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 1 23:02:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:02:38 -0400 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200810020002.39337.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 01 October 2008 22:58, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > In addition to radio and teletext, there was also a TV program in Germany > that transmitted software by burying the data in the first few scanlines of > the videosignal. The circuit to recover the datastream was quite simple. > While the broadcast was running you would see a small box in the upperleft > corner where you could actually see the data go by. I've heard of all sorts of things being stuffed into the "vertical interval" but that stuff was not ordinarily visible onscreen, unless you fiddled with the vertical hold adjustment to roll the picture a little, and have the blanking bar showing. I've also been curious for some time as to how one could "pick off" a specific scan line to get at whatever data was in there, so if that circuit is online anyplace I'd be interested in taking a look at it, even if it's not precisely the same thing. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 1 23:05:52 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:05:52 -0400 Subject: Two more Craters & Freighters happy experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810020005.53308.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 01 October 2008 23:41, Richard wrote: > In the case of CTS/adcom worldwide, the only reason that I used them > and not C&F is that there wasn't a C&F that could go to Reading, PA > and pick up the stuff from a dovebid auction. While not exactly what I'd call local, Reading, PA is not an unreasonable distance from here. I'm in the next county over, to be precise. In case that might come in handy for someone... I've also seen stuff mentioned regarding auctions and such in Mechanicsburg, PA, which is also not unreasonably far from me (I worked there for a few years while living here in this town). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From tonym at compusource.net Wed Oct 1 23:43:18 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:43:18 -0400 Subject: Altos MP/M II Operating System Manual for Altos 580-10 and Series 5 References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> <200810020002.39337.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000d01c92449$646b83b0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> After sitting on Vintage-computer.com Erik Klein's manual for, oh, 6 months, I finally got around to scanning it. This has full schematics, diagnostic instructions, reload processes for HD and FDD-only systems, etc... it's a 29MB PDF, so Al Kossow and Gene Buckle, how do i get it to you guys? Tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 2 00:09:07 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 23:09:07 -0600 Subject: Two more Craters & Freighters happy experiences In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:05:52 -0400. <200810020005.53308.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <200810020005.53308.rtellason at verizon.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > While not exactly what I'd call local, Reading, PA is not an unreasonable > distance from here. I'm in the next county over, to be precise. In case > that might come in handy for someone... SGI gear seems to show up regularly on a recurring auction that dovebid runs out of Reading for "television station equipment". > I've also seen stuff mentioned regarding auctions and such in Mechanicsburg, > PA, which is also not unreasonably far from me (I worked there for a few > years while living here in this town). Cool! govliquidation.com seems to put a number of interesting items up for sale in Mechanicsburg, but I've always passed on them as I had no way to deal with the shipping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 01:01:06 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 02:01:06 -0400 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <100220080155.10696.48E42A0C000B5C9A000029C822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <100220080155.10696.48E42A0C000B5C9A000029C822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <48E463A2.7040107@gmail.com> Brian L. Stuart wrote: >> apparently it has his Alfa Romeo motor club data on it (so it's clearly >> +10yo :-) > > I used to have one of those. I really miss that car. They're coming back next year. Peace... Sridhar From mbg at world.std.com Thu Oct 2 01:22:12 2008 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 02:22:12 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) In-Reply-To: <46155D89.6050908@compsys.to> References: <0JGD00GIX8NRCZ6G@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <46155D89.6050908@compsys.to> Message-ID: <48E46894.2070807@world.std.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > At some time or other, I saw a VT103 with dual TU-58 > drives in the bottom. As noted, it took about the > lunch break to boot. At one point, I had a VT103 booting RT-11 from TU58 in about 30 seconds, through judicious placement of the files on the tape... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 2 04:25:55 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:25:55 +0100 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <31701.1222910657@mini> References: <31701.1222910657@mini> Message-ID: <1222939555.3910.3.camel@kusanagi> On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 21:24 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > A friend of a friend has an old xenix machine; Compaq DeskPro 386 > running Xenix. He shut if off after running for years and it won't > boot because the cmos battery is dead. > > The disk is an ESDI drive attached to a Compaq ESDI/FLPY controller > (copyright 1989) ISA bus card. > > He says can't see any way to enter a "setup" mode in the BIOS. > > Anyone know how to fix this? Argh. I used to know this. If it's like my 386N then you need to hit a key - possibly F12 - when the cursor scoots across to the right-hand side of the screen. You've got about a second to do this. Don't blink. > apparently it has his Alfa Romeo motor club data on it (so it's clearly > +10yo :-) It's probably well outlived most of the 10-year-old Alfas, although there's an early 80s one parked near my office that's not quite a Tetley teabag yet. > Anyone know if the xenix fs can be mounted on linux? (I doubt it, but > I thought I'd ask) Probably. As someone else mentioned, SysV rings a faint bell. There's bound to be some way to do it. At worst you can dd off the entire image and play with the image, leaving the disk alone. Gordon From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 2 04:26:51 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:26:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Unusual software carriers. In-Reply-To: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > In addition to radio and teletext, there was also a TV program in Germany > that transmitted software by burying the data in the first few scanlines of > the videosignal. The WDR Computerclub transmitted programs this way, this technique was called Videodat (later on commercialized as Channel Videodat). You could/needed to buy a Videodat decoder, you can find these occasionally on flea markets, but they are totally useless today. > While the broadcast was running you would see a small box in the upperleft > corner where you could actually see the data go by. I don't think so, the data was transmitted in the same manner as videotext signals. Christian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 2 04:27:35 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:27:35 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <200810020002.39337.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> <200810020002.39337.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1222939655.3910.5.camel@kusanagi> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 00:02 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've also been curious for some time as to how one could "pick off" a specific > scan line to get at whatever data was in there, so if that circuit is online > anyplace I'd be interested in taking a look at it, even if it's not > precisely the same thing. Detect vsync then count hsync pulses. Or, if you can make it accurate and stable enough, a monostable. Gordon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 07:49:32 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:49:32 -0500 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <100220080155.10696.48E42A0C000B5C9A000029C822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <100220080155.10696.48E42A0C000B5C9A000029C822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <48E4C35C.2080604@gmail.com> Brian L. Stuart wrote: >> apparently it has his Alfa Romeo motor club data on it (so it's clearly >> +10yo :-) > > I used to have one of those. I really miss that car. > >> Anyone know if the xenix fs can be mounted on linux? (I doubt it, but >> I thought I'd ask) > > Don't quote me on this, but somewhere in the back of > my head I have a vague memory that Xenix used the same > file system layout as System V. From the 'mount' man page: "Note that coherent, sysv and xenix are equivalent and that xenix and coherent will be removed at some point in the future -- use sysv instead" ... I've had quite a bit of luck mounting ancient Unix-and-friends filesystems under Linux, albeit often read-only (not a problem if just salvaging data) and sometimes with screwy file timestamps (possibly more critical in this case) The real problem is the partition table, as these are often proprietary and not very well documented, and Linux support for alien partition tables is a bit sparse. You need to know where the filesystem starts and ends on the disk in order to pull it out raw using 'dd' under Linux, and then mount the resulting file image as a Xenix filesystem loop option. For my Tek Unix box I ended up trawling the Tek's raw disk for fragments of ASCII related to partition support. That gave me just enough data to reverse-engineer the partition table format in the first few blocks of the disk, and then get access to the filesystem sizes/offsets. For this case, maybe someone has a suitable running Xenix install and can quote the format, or has some useful paper documentation... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 08:01:19 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:01:19 -0500 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E4C61F.5060409@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > You bought (at least in the UK) a cassette where side 1 cotnained > machine-specific traslator/subrotuing programs -- for the PET, BBC Micro, > TRS-80, etc, Siee 2 contained various demo programs in Basicode. You > lioaded the appropriate translator for your machine and could then load a > Basicode program (either from side 2 of the tape or one you'd recorded > off the radio). Indeed - I had one of those tapes, although I'm not sure if I still do; I think I may have parked it at Bletchley before I left the UK. Somewhere I still have an Acorn doc related to their implementation of the standard. Now, there was also a brief move to transmit data via TV for home computers in the UK (as mentioned by others for other countries) - I can't for the life of me remember what that was called, as I think it was something other than Basicode. (My brain wants to say it transmitted as part of the Teletext signal for use with the various Teletext adapters - Morley, Acorn etc. - but I'm not certain). I do have some documentation on it, but of course it's stuck in storage 4000 miles away :-( > I also believe that some programs for the BBC micro were transmitted as > pages on the BBC's (TV company) teletext system -- probably pages with > hex digits in the page number, whioch could not be displayed on most TVs. Gaaah, read entire message before typing, Jules :-) Hopefully someone has a name for it, though. > There were at least 2 teletext decoders that connected to the BBC micro I think someone - possibly Morley - did one for the Spectrum, too. cheers J. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 2 10:52:51 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altos MP/M II Operating System Manual for Altos 580-10 and Series 5 In-Reply-To: <000d01c92449$646b83b0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> <200810020002.39337.rtellason@verizon.net> <000d01c92449$646b83b0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: > After sitting on Vintage-computer.com Erik Klein's manual for, oh, 6 months, > I finally got around to scanning it. > > This has full schematics, diagnostic instructions, reload processes for HD > and FDD-only systems, etc... > > it's a 29MB PDF, so Al Kossow and Gene Buckle, how do i get it to you guys? > I've already got a backlog of stuff and no time to clear it, so just worry about getting it to Al for now. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Oct 2 09:00:23 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:00:23 -0400 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <48E4D3F7.1040100@verizon.net> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > In addition to radio and teletext, there was also a TV program in > Germany that transmitted software by burying the data in the first few > scanlines of the videosignal. I think there was some TV program here in the US that did something similar. They sold relatively inexpensive decoders, that I think attached via rs-232, which allowed you to receive the data. I believe, however, that they used the entire screen, or a box in the center of the screen, and everything was visible. I think this was during the 80's. I just stumbled on youtube-ish videos a couple years ago, and was impressed that they were doing such, ummm, high-tech stuff back then.(or seemingly high-tech, right? Distributing software/programs via TV sounds more current-generation comcast cable capabilities than 80's-tech) I think that was a great idea for wide distribution of things. Like multicast traffic today. Anyone know what the name of the programs, or the name of the decoder boxes/technology? Keith From ats at offog.org Thu Oct 2 09:07:34 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:07:34 +0100 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: <48E4C61F.5060409@gmail.com> (Jules Richardson's message of "Thu\, 02 Oct 2008 08\:01\:19 -0500") References: <48E4C61F.5060409@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson writes: > (My brain wants to say it transmitted as part of the Teletext signal > for use with the various Teletext adapters - Morley, Acorn etc. - but > I'm not certain). Yup -- the Advanced Teletext System manual refers to it as "telesoftware". There's a PDF of the ATS manual here containing some screenshots and a brief description of how the data was transmitted: http://www.astro.ljmu.ac.uk/~bbcdocs/hardware/ATS_Handbook.zip Mike Brown's web pages have lots of pictures of the Ceefax Telesoftware service, and the text of the shutdown notice: http://teletext.mb21.co.uk/gallery/ceefax/telesoftware/ -- Adam Sampson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 09:24:10 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:24:10 -0500 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: References: <48E4C61F.5060409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48E4D98A.50901@gmail.com> Adam Sampson wrote: > Jules Richardson writes: > >> (My brain wants to say it transmitted as part of the Teletext signal >> for use with the various Teletext adapters - Morley, Acorn etc. - but >> I'm not certain). > > Yup -- the Advanced Teletext System manual refers to it as > "telesoftware". There's a PDF of the ATS manual here containing some > screenshots and a brief description of how the data was transmitted: *that's it*, thanks. I remember now that the doc I have is a copy of a spec document, titled something like "A Redefinable Telesoftware format for the BBC micro" - I seem to recall the one I have was a preliminary release rather than a final version. I'll have to check later that I didn't bring a scanned copy across the pond with me, but I'm pretty sure the paper copy is all I have. > http://www.astro.ljmu.ac.uk/~bbcdocs/hardware/ATS_Handbook.zip > > Mike Brown's web pages have lots of pictures of the Ceefax Telesoftware > service, and the text of the shutdown notice: > > http://teletext.mb21.co.uk/gallery/ceefax/telesoftware/ Those were the days... sadly I got rid of my teletext units late last year before moving - they'd be even less useful in the US than they were in the UK! Hmm, did anyone ever transmit computer programs via satellite? I remember there was a brief period (at least in the UK) where home computer satellite decoders were very popular; it didn't need a lot of circuitry, so homebrew receivers existed alongside commercial units. I don't think anyone's mentioned program data stored on Laserdisc (Domesday etc.) yet... cheers Jules From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 10:29:56 2008 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:29:56 -0500 Subject: more Flexowriter In-Reply-To: <52B97CB9-2563-4DFF-85DC-33241938CD85@vt.edu> References: <52B97CB9-2563-4DFF-85DC-33241938CD85@vt.edu> Message-ID: <2789adda0810020829h7dd03d58rbda8a1639646e942@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Robert Sturges wrote: > Dear Classics: > > I just gotta get a Flexowriter. Who has one that will sell it to me? I had > one years ago and gave it up in time of crisis. (Yes, I deserve it.) No > reasonable asking price refused! > > Cheers, Dr. Bob > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Oct 2 11:04:50 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:04:50 -0400 Subject: TU-58s (was Re: Some progress with my PDP-11/73 system) In-Reply-To: <48E46894.2070807@world.std.com> References: <0JGD00GIX8NRCZ6G@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <46155D89.6050908@compsys.to> <48E46894.2070807@world.std.com> Message-ID: <48E4F122.3080803@verizon.net> I still have a small 11/23 in a BDV11-VA shoebox with a pair of Tu58s, with 256k of ram it boots RT-11 in about a minute and longer (about 10minutes) from there to copy it to VM: and reboot from there to save on running tape for small things. If it took a luch time then the user never read teh chapter on using the TU58 and there is a note on how to optimize that. Allison Megan Gentry wrote: > Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> At some time or other, I saw a VT103 with dual TU-58 >> drives in the bottom. As noted, it took about the >> lunch break to boot. > > At one point, I had a VT103 booting RT-11 from TU58 in about 30 > seconds, through judicious placement of the files on the tape... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 2 11:03:33 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:03:33 +0100 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: <48E4D98A.50901@gmail.com> References: <48E4C61F.5060409@gmail.com> <48E4D98A.50901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48E4F0D5.1070308@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Those were the days... sadly I got rid of my teletext units late last > year before moving - they'd be even less useful in the US than they were > in the UK! I've got a Ground Control / Solidisk "Universal Teletext Adapter" kicking around somewhere. It's a nifty little box that contains a Mullard UHF tuner, A/V demodulator (the Aux connector carries composite video and mono audio) and a Philips Teletext decoder chip. The digital interface is I2C -- the stock software communicates over the User Port, but I've got other software that will talk over the Podule bus's I2C port. I've actually got an A3000 (again, *somewhere*) and a RiscPC backplane that have been modified to feed the I2C signal to the "outside world" so I could wire up the UTA... > I don't think anyone's mentioned program data stored on Laserdisc > (Domesday etc.) yet... Let me see if I can remember this correctly.. The Domesday system was a Master Turbo with a SCSI card, wired up to a A Philips VP412 Laserdisc player that had been modified to add a SCSI interface and a chroma-keyed genlock. The Master could boot off the LD, load the software, then play back a video clip, still image or what have you. Then there were a few arcade games that used Laserdiscs for cutscenes and such, but I suspect those are off-topic for cc{talk,tech}. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 2 11:28:15 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:28:15 +0100 Subject: Vinyl Data- Classic Computers / Indie music tricks crossover In-Reply-To: <48E4F0D5.1070308@philpem.me.uk> References: <48E4C61F.5060409@gmail.com> <48E4D98A.50901@gmail.com> <48E4F0D5.1070308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <48E4F69F.4090000@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/10/2008 17:03, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Let me see if I can remember this correctly.. > > The Domesday system was a Master Turbo with a SCSI card, wired up to a A > Philips VP412 Laserdisc player that had been modified to add a SCSI > interface and a chroma-keyed genlock. The Master could boot off the LD, > load the software, then play back a video clip, still image or what have > you. > > Then there were a few arcade games that used Laserdiscs for cutscenes > and such, but I suspect those are off-topic for cc{talk,tech}. Yes, and various CAL systems using laserdiscs. For example, in the early-to-mid 1980s Jaguar Cars issued every authorised dealer/service agent with a training system consisting of an IBM AT with a genlocked video card, a Pioneer laservision player, a high-res Sony monitor, and a bunch of laserdiscs that explained all the service and maintenance procedures. The police used a training system involving laserdiscs playing various scenarios for training firearms officers with live ammunition (I got to play with one once, at Saville's, outside York, around 1987). The video images were projected onto a screen which consisted of two layers of paper on huge rolls, and the player stopped when the microphones picked up the sound of the shot(s). A detector then located the bullet hole in the screen, and after assessment, the two rolls were wound a fraction of an inch in opposite directions to obscure the hole and prepare for the next scenario. Now that's interactive video :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Oct 2 12:23:54 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:23:54 -0400 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <1222939655.3910.5.camel@kusanagi> References: <200810020002.39337.rtellason@verizon.net> <1222939655.3910.5.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <200810021323.54910.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 02 October 2008 05:27, Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 00:02 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I've also been curious for some time as to how one could "pick off" a > > specific scan line to get at whatever data was in there, so if that > > circuit is online anyplace I'd be interested in taking a look at it, > > even if it's not precisely the same thing. > > Detect vsync then count hsync pulses. Or, if you can make it accurate > and stable enough, a monostable. Maybe my grasp of current and recent signal processing techniques is a little too tenouous. My recollection of vertical sync is the composite sync pulses fed into an integrator which put out a fairly rounded waveform, giving a "start of sync" point that was fairly ambiguous. Maybe I oughta study up on that there digital stuff. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 2 12:33:50 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) counting syncs In-Reply-To: <200810021323.54910.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <341103.15489.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Roy J. Tellason wrote: From: Roy J. Tellason Subject: Re: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 10:23 AM On Thursday 02 October 2008 05:27, Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 00:02 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I've also been curious for some time as to how one could "pick off" a > > specific scan line to get at whatever data was in there, so if that > > circuit is online anyplace I'd be interested in taking a look at it, > > even if it's not precisely the same thing. > > Detect vsync then count hsync pulses. Or, if you can make it accurate > and stable enough, a monostable. Maybe my grasp of current and recent signal processing techniques is a little too tenouous. My recollection of vertical sync is the composite sync pulses fed into an integrator which put out a fairly rounded waveform, giving a "start of sync" point that was fairly ambiguous. Maybe I oughta study up on that there digital stuff. :-) An LM1881 sync separator chip and a counter (or PIC type chip) is all that you need to select a line, or group of lines. Bob From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 2 12:39:04 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:39:04 -0500 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <31701.1222910657@mini> References: <31701.1222910657@mini> Message-ID: <48E50738.8060006@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: > A friend of a friend has an old xenix machine; Compaq DeskPro 386 > running Xenix. He shut if off after running for years and it won't > boot because the cmos battery is dead. > > The disk is an ESDI drive attached to a Compaq ESDI/FLPY controller > (copyright 1989) ISA bus card. > > He says can't see any way to enter a "setup" mode in the BIOS. If the system has a diag partition, as a lot of Compaqs did, he'll need to hit F10 at boot time. The cursor will move from upper left corner to upper right on the screen, and you've got maybe 2 seconds to hit F10. Failing that, I might have the diagnostic/setup floppy image. I'll look for it this evening. Doc Shipley From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 2 12:29:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:29:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <48E35557.31967.1A5395A2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 1, 8 10:47:51 am Message-ID: > I was under the impression that old "B+ supply" transformers were > getting hard to find. Not so, apparently. I popped open a 1990's They're not _that_ hard to fimd, and there are plenty od workarounds. Since nixie tube current is pretty low, and the supply doesn't have to be that well smoothed, you can use a voltage doubler (or even a larger diode-capacitor multiplier circuit) to get that voltage from a lower voltage trasnformer. Alternatively, consider using a transformer 'back to front'. Start of taking in mains and stepping it down to, say, 12V AC using a normal transformer in the conventional way. Yo ucan rectify/smooth/regulate that for your logic supply. But then take another 220V-12V trasnformer and connect the 12V winding to the secondary (12V) side of the first transformer. You'll get around 230V from the other (original primary) winding of that transformer. OK, it's inefficient, but it's fine for nixie tubes, 1 and 2 valvle headphone radios, and the like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 2 12:52:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:52:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: <200810011755.21229.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Oct 1, 8 05:55:21 pm Message-ID: > > On Wednesday 01 October 2008 16:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Very few HP classic desktop computer service manuals contain > > > > scheamtics. You might, if you are lucky, get PSU schemaitcs, but not > > > > for the processor, etc, sections. I am, of course, trying to remedy > > > > this... > > > > > > That stinks. > > > > Waht does? The fact that HP desktop computer service manuals are anything > > but, or the fact that I am trying to do soemthing about it? > > The former of course, and I don't know why you'd ask me such a silly > question... Well, sometimes I can be a pedant, and one thing that irritates _me_ is the fact that English is not a precise language ... [Graphics PCB RAM chip allocation] > At least it was possible to figure it out. Yes. The circuitry is a little odd -- there are 16 4416 RAM chips, and the data pins are not liked -- effectively there's a 64 bit databus on that card. Each RAM chip can be written individually from the approprate 4 68K data lines -- there are a couple of '138s which select the appropriate chip (or pair of chips for a word access -- 2 pixels at a time) for wriing. I forget how the data is handles for reading, I think there re 8 off 8 input multiplexer chips which bring the 64 data lines down to 8, these then go to the appropriate 68K data lines again ('appropriate' here means the low nybble of each byte, so likes 0-3 and 8-11). The decoders and muxes are controlled by the low 3 bits (A1-A3) of the 68K address bus. The data also endes up in 4 16 bit shift registers (a total of 8 '166s I think), which send it a a 4 bit serial pixel stream to the colour lookup table and thence to the DACs. I guess this was the easiest way to get the necessary pixel rate from slow-ish DRAMs. Having worked all that out, it was still not obvious what diagnostic error was telling me. Since it occured at the first RAM location in the graphics RAM (there's a pattial memory map in HP's CE handbook for this machine), I first looked to see eich RAMs were being written to. When I found it was only 4 of them, all on the high half of th word. I guessed the diagnostic stopped as soon as it found an error, and that this was a simple read/write test. Then, by carefully grounding RAM data pins (rememebr everything was buffered, so this wouldn't crash the processor) and seeing how the R: value changed when I re-ran the diagnostic, I figured it out. Then it was just a matter of desoldering the RAM chip and fitting a replacement. > It's a nice feeling, isn't it? I miss that lately. Indeed yes!. I love it when a dead machine, or one with a reported fault, works perfectly again. [..] > > I prefer to use a 'scope or logic analyser whenever possible (and when > > finding the memory problem I've just desicribed, I did look at the RAS/ CAS/ > > etc signals first...) > > The scope was my most-used tool for that sort of thing, and I never had the > use of a logic analyzer, mostly working for myself I could never justify the Over 10 years ago I bought an HP LogicDart. It was expensive, but I have never regretted it. I've got other instrumetns that do all it will do and more, but that's a useful handheld tool that will find 99% of digital faults in classic computers, if used with that most important piece of diagnostic equipment -- the thing inside your head. > I don't think I've seen many diodes in TO-3 packages. Plastic ones, yeah. This is the modern equivalent of an EZ80 or whatever you call it :-). 2 diodes in one (To3) package with a common cathode connection (broung out to tthe case) and separate anodes (to the 2 pins). It's used for the classic biphase rectifier circuit with a centre-tapped transformer. I think I've seen them in DEC machines too. [...] > > > > > I wonder if it would be possible to get from some aftermarket > > > > > suppliers? I > > > > > > > > Als I doubt it. IT was not a common machine, so I doubt anyone bothered > > > > to make a nrw flyback for it. > > > > > > How certain can you be that they went and made one that was unique to > > > that machine? > > > > I cna't be. All it has on it is an HP part number (which is not a lot of > > help). I have no idea who actually made it, whether it was used in any > > other HP product, or whether it was actually a standard one that was > > re-labelled (although I think that is unlikely). > > That's what I was wondering, if there were any possible way to research that > sort of thing. Did any companies produce catalogues of flyback transformers giving the winding connections to the pins and the inductance/number of turns of the windings? If so, it would be possible to see if any of them matched up at all. The 3rd-party suppliers over here will sell you a flyback for TV model or monitor but they don't give any more details than that. > > > > Different strokes, etc. I suspect that with a little digging it might > > > be possible to find out who actually made that. They likely didn't make > > > it themselves. And an off-the-shelf product is much cheaper than one > > > that's custom-made for one specific product. > > > > THis is HP we're talking about... > > Which is not the same as saying it were say, IBM. :-) I am not so sure. HP used a lot of custom parts in their machines. The earlier desktop machines mostly had custom-designed processors, for example : 9100 : Custom, and very strange discrete-transistor thing. No ALU, even... 98x0 : Bit-serial 16 bit processor built from TTL chips. 9805 : Arithmetic/Registers and Control/Timing HP custom chips (as in handhelds), I think 9815 : Motoroal 6800 (OK, standard) 9825/9845/9835 : HP BPC processor custom hybrid module 8x series : HP custom 8 bit procesor (Capricorn?) 9000/200 series (the ones wr're talking about) : 68000, 68010 I would not be at all suprised if HP made/had made custom flyback transformers. > > > Did you figure most of it out or come across it somewhere else? > > > > Now, given that I've had this machine in many bits over the last few > > months what do you think? > > If I had that much of an idea I wouldn't be asking now, would I? Ok, OK... Well, if I get information from other sources I do try to give the reference (to a manual, a website, the person who told me, etc). So in this case I claim I figured it out myself, given some help from the HP service manual (connector pinouts), the CE manual (memory map) and plenty of databooks. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 2 14:41:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:41:05 -0700 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <48E35557.31967.1A5395A2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 1, 8 10:47:51 am, Message-ID: <48E4C161.17203.1FE197AC@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2008 at 18:29, Tony Duell wrote: > Alternatively, consider using a transformer 'back to front'. Start of > taking in mains and stepping it down to, say, 12V AC using a normal > transformer in the conventional way. Yo ucan rectify/smooth/regulate that > for your logic supply. But then take another 220V-12V trasnformer and > connect the 12V winding to the secondary (12V) side of the first > transformer. You'll get around 230V from the other (original primary) > winding of that transformer. If you happen to have one handy in the USA, of course. Although "universal" 95-240v transformers can be found in the US, most of the small ones (such as are found in wall warts) are 120vac primaries only. But if I had a 12vdc supply at sufficient current and needed to power some nixies, I'd be sore tempted to work up a boost supply using any of the currently available DC-DC converter ICs. EDN/Electronic Design is full of such circuits (e.g. using the Maxim MAX1771). Much more compact and not requiring much in the way of a DC filter capacitor. Where I'd draw the line is with any small signal application, such as a receiver using tubes/valves. Those converter ICs can really generate a lot of RF noise. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 2 16:43:05 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:43:05 +0100 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <48E25A05.7070500@gifford.co.uk> References: <20080929224454.GA5521@usap.gov> <200809292042.38680.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080930163328.GA837@n0jcf.net> <48E25A05.7070500@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <48E54069.4070205@philpem.me.uk> John Honniball wrote: > I got the filter material > from Maplin's, who are still in business, but I don't think they still > sell it. They stopped selling it ages ago, but Farnell still stock it: http://uk.farnell.com/178186/optoelectronics/product.us0?sku=visualux-2711xg1-5&_requestid=365374 A bit on the expensive side for what it is, but it does the job. I've been using it with HP HDSP-2112 (green) 5x7 LED displays. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Oct 2 17:04:16 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:04:16 +0000 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <48E54069.4070205@philpem.me.uk> References: <20080929224454.GA5521@usap.gov> <200809292042.38680.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080930163328.GA837@n0jcf.net> <48E25A05.7070500@gifford.co.uk> <48E54069.4070205@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20081002220416.GA2461@usap.gov> On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 10:43:05PM +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > John Honniball wrote: > > I got the filter material > >from Maplin's, who are still in business, but I don't think they still > >sell it. > > They stopped selling it ages ago, but Farnell still stock it: > http://uk.farnell.com/178186/optoelectronics/product.us0?sku=visualux-2711xg1-5&_requestid=365374 Down for maintenance, unfortunately. > A bit on the expensive side for what it is, but it does the job. I've been > using it with HP HDSP-2112 (green) 5x7 LED displays. I have a few of those at home I got from a friend who worked at a place that made avionics displays (when they cleared out buckets of old components). I've never tried to talk to them, but I have the datasheet here. They look interesting, but slightly complicated to talk to at the register level (physical interfacing seems easy enough). One idea I had for them was the date portion of a multi-time-zone clock (we have several on the walls here out of necessity, and a desktop-sized on seemed to be a good target). What have you been using yours for? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Oct-2008 at 21:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -72.0 F (-57.8 C) Windchill -116.8 F (-82.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.7 kts Grid 17 Barometer 674.9 mb (10821 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 2 17:34:42 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:34:42 +0100 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <20081002220416.GA2461@usap.gov> References: <20080929224454.GA5521@usap.gov> <200809292042.38680.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080930163328.GA837@n0jcf.net> <48E25A05.7070500@gifford.co.uk> <48E54069.4070205@philpem.me.uk> <20081002220416.GA2461@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48E54C82.5000802@philpem.me.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> http://uk.farnell.com/178186/optoelectronics/product.us0?sku=visualux-2711xg1-5&_requestid=365374 > > Down for maintenance, unfortunately. Aye, usually from 10PM to 7AM UK time. The words "pain in the backside" spring to mind... >> A bit on the expensive side for what it is, but it does the job. I've been >> using it with HP HDSP-2112 (green) 5x7 LED displays. > > I have a few of those at home I got from a friend who worked at a place that > made avionics displays (when they cleared out buckets of old components). > I've never tried to talk to them, but I have the datasheet here. They look > interesting, but slightly complicated to talk to at the register level > (physical interfacing seems easy enough). Not really. It's straight 8-bit with RD/WR/CS/addressing. If you don't need to read from the display, ignore the nRD line (tie it high), then tie nWR and nCS together (to save an I/O line). That leaves you with a requirement for 8 data lines, one write strobe, five address lines, a reset line and the "flash register access" line (effectively another address line). So that's 16 lines. I wanted to wire mine up to a PIC microcontroller, so I needed to save a few more I/O lines. The obvious solution (and the one I used) was to use a 74LS164 shift register to handle the data pins. Shift the data in (8 clocks), set the address and strobe nWR. Job done. If you need to save more I/O lines, add another shift register to handle the address and nFL lines. That brings the count down to four -- nWR/nCS, LS164_CLK, LS164_DATA, and RESET. Startup is a piece of cake -- you write a single byte to the Mode register, then you just write characters to the display RAM. User defined characters are just as easy -- you write the character address to one register, then write five bytes of character data to consecutive CGRAM addresses. > One idea I had for them was the date portion of a multi-time-zone clock > (we have several on the walls here out of necessity, and a desktop-sized > on seemed to be a good target). What have you been using yours for? I've only used one -- it's in a hand-held rev-counter I built for testing motor speed controllers. I'm working on the power supply for it now -- basically it's a lithium-ion battery pack from a digital camera (Canon NB-5L, from the new Ixus series, ?10) wired to a MAX1811 charge controller, an MC34063 step-up converter (to get +5V) and a PIC micro that acts as a battery charge monitor. The hard part is building a connector for the battery... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu Oct 2 21:37:29 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:37:29 -0400 Subject: VT220 Keyboard Error 4? Message-ID: <8CAF3181CF6FFE5-183C-1654@FWM-M38.sysops.aol.com> I tend to look for the simpler explanations first. If your keyboard was previously working, the first place I would check is the MMJ on the back of the terminal. I've seen everything from malformed pins, to corrosion, to spider webs, to dead bugs inside RJ12 / RJ45 connectors. Another point of failure is the?MMJ on the keyboard cable; you can try removing that, and re-crimping it. T From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Oct 2 22:20:09 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:20:09 -0700 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <1222939555.3910.3.camel@kusanagi> References: <31701.1222910657@mini> <1222939555.3910.3.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: The Linux sysv file system (as it existed a couple years ago) would mount a clean 80386 Xenix partition if given the proper flags. You should mount read only. I have fortunately never had to try it on a dirty filesystem. On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 2:25 AM, Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 21:24 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: >> A friend of a friend has an old xenix machine; Compaq DeskPro 386 >> running Xenix. He shut if off after running for years and it won't >> boot because the cmos battery is dead. >> >> The disk is an ESDI drive attached to a Compaq ESDI/FLPY controller >> (copyright 1989) ISA bus card. >> >> He says can't see any way to enter a "setup" mode in the BIOS. >> >> Anyone know how to fix this? > > Argh. I used to know this. If it's like my 386N then you need to hit a > key - possibly F12 - when the cursor scoots across to the right-hand > side of the screen. You've got about a second to do this. Don't blink. > >> apparently it has his Alfa Romeo motor club data on it (so it's clearly >> +10yo :-) > > It's probably well outlived most of the 10-year-old Alfas, although > there's an early 80s one parked near my office that's not quite a Tetley > teabag yet. > >> Anyone know if the xenix fs can be mounted on linux? (I doubt it, but >> I thought I'd ask) > > Probably. As someone else mentioned, SysV rings a faint bell. There's > bound to be some way to do it. > > At worst you can dd off the entire image and play with the image, > leaving the disk alone. > > Gordon > > From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Oct 2 22:34:05 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:34:05 -0400 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <48E50738.8060006@mdrconsult.com> References: <31701.1222910657@mini> <48E50738.8060006@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200810022334.06742.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 02 October 2008 13:39, Doc Shipley wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: > > A friend of a friend has an old xenix machine; Compaq DeskPro 386 > > running Xenix. He shut if off after running for years and it won't > > boot because the cmos battery is dead. > > > > The disk is an ESDI drive attached to a Compaq ESDI/FLPY controller > > (copyright 1989) ISA bus card. > > > > He says can't see any way to enter a "setup" mode in the BIOS. > > If the system has a diag partition, as a lot of Compaqs did, he'll > need to hit F10 at boot time. The cursor will move from upper left > corner to upper right on the screen, and you've got maybe 2 seconds to > hit F10. Nice to see my recollection confirmed. > Failing that, I might have the diagnostic/setup floppy image. I'll > look for it this evening. I think those are often pretty machine-specific, but the last time I needed one I was able to download it from Compaq's web site. Though that was admittedly not recently... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Oct 2 23:18:34 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 00:18:34 -0400 Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810030018.34783.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 02 October 2008 13:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Wednesday 01 October 2008 16:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Very few HP classic desktop computer service manuals contain > > > > > scheamtics. You might, if you are lucky, get PSU schemaitcs, but > > > > > not for the processor, etc, sections. I am, of course, trying to > > > > > remedy this... > > > > > > > > That stinks. > > > > > > Waht does? The fact that HP desktop computer service manuals are > > > anything but, or the fact that I am trying to do soemthing about it? > > > > The former of course, and I don't know why you'd ask me such a silly > > question... > > Well, sometimes I can be a pedant, and one thing that irritates _me_ is > the fact that English is not a precise language ... Well, it can be in the hands of some, and I envy those who have that knack. :-) > [Graphics PCB RAM chip allocation] > > > At least it was possible to figure it out. > > Yes. The circuitry is a little odd -- there are 16 4416 RAM chips, and > the data pins are not liked -- effectively there's a 64 bit databus on > that card. Each RAM chip can be written individually from the approprate > 4 68K data lines -- there are a couple of '138s which select the > appropriate chip (or pair of chips for a word access -- 2 pixels at a > time) for wriing. I forget how the data is handles for reading, I think > there re 8 off 8 input multiplexer chips which bring the 64 data lines > down to 8, these then go to the appropriate 68K data lines again > ('appropriate' here means the low nybble of each byte, so likes 0-3 and > 8-11). The decoders and muxes are controlled by the low 3 bits (A1-A3) of > the 68K address bus. Some engineer got very clever there, it sounds like, and then somebody else in the hierarchy decided not to let you in on how that worked, in detail... > The data also endes up in 4 16 bit shift registers (a total of 8 '166s I > think), which send it a a 4 bit serial pixel stream to the colour lookup > table and thence to the DACs. > > I guess this was the easiest way to get the necessary pixel rate from > slow-ish DRAMs. > > Having worked all that out, it was still not obvious what diagnostic > error was telling me. Since it occured at the first RAM location in the > graphics RAM (there's a pattial memory map in HP's CE handbook for this > machine), I first looked to see eich RAMs were being written to. When I > found it was only 4 of them, all on the high half of th word. I guessed > the diagnostic stopped as soon as it found an error, and that this was a > simple read/write test. Then, by carefully grounding RAM data pins > (rememebr everything was buffered, so this wouldn't crash the processor) > and seeing how the R: value changed when I re-ran the diagnostic, I > figured it out. Ah. > Then it was just a matter of desoldering the RAM chip and fitting a > replacement. > > > It's a nice feeling, isn't it? I miss that lately. > > Indeed yes!. I love it when a dead machine, or one with a reported fault, > works perfectly again. Yes. I spent some time getting my stuff organized today, hopefully I'll be able to finish that up and get it to the point where I'll be able to start doing something with all that stuff... > [..] > > > > I prefer to use a 'scope or logic analyser whenever possible (and when > > > finding the memory problem I've just desicribed, I did look at the RAS/ > > > CAS/ etc signals first...) > > > > The scope was my most-used tool for that sort of thing, and I never had > > the use of a logic analyzer, mostly working for myself I could never > > justify the expense. > > Over 10 years ago I bought an HP LogicDart. It was expensive, but I have > never regretted it. I've got other instrumetns that do all it will do and > more, but that's a useful handheld tool that will find 99% of > digital faults in classic computers, if used with that most important > piece of diagnostic equipment -- the thing inside your head. Yes... > > I don't think I've seen many diodes in TO-3 packages. Plastic ones, > > yeah. > > This is the modern equivalent of an EZ80 or whatever you call it :-). 2 > diodes in one (To3) package with a common cathode connection (broung out > to tthe case) and separate anodes (to the 2 pins). It's used for the > classic biphase rectifier circuit with a centre-tapped transformer. I > think I've seen them in DEC machines too. As long as I've been working with this stuff there are still surprises for me now and then. > [...] > > > > > > > I wonder if it would be possible to get from some aftermarket > > > > > > suppliers? I > > > > > > > > > > Als I doubt it. IT was not a common machine, so I doubt anyone > > > > > bothered to make a nrw flyback for it. > > > > > > > > How certain can you be that they went and made one that was unique to > > > > that machine? > > > > > > I cna't be. All it has on it is an HP part number (which is not a lot > > > of help). I have no idea who actually made it, whether it was used in > > > any other HP product, or whether it was actually a standard one that > > > was re-labelled (although I think that is unlikely). > > > > That's what I was wondering, if there were any possible way to research > > that sort of thing. > > Did any companies produce catalogues of flyback transformers giving the > winding connections to the pins and the inductance/number of turns of the > windings? If so, it would be possible to see if any of them matched up at > all. I know that years ago you could by some "universal" type replacements for flybacks and yokes, but that was a really long time ago, probably mostly for TV uses, and likely to predate most monitors. Whether that's something that's been continued since then I can't say, though my feelings are that since it was done once that shows that such a thing is possible and that it might've been done again in the intervening years. Although I used to run a service shop I've not done so for a nontrivial time -- 16 years this past spring was when I closed it -- so I'm seriously out of touch with what goes on in that business these days. > The 3rd-party suppliers over here will sell you a flyback for TV model > or monitor but they don't give any more details than that. A generic replacement type flyback? Or an OEM part? If it's the former then maybe there's some hope. > > > > Different strokes, etc. I suspect that with a little digging it > > > > might be possible to find out who actually made that. They likely > > > > didn't make it themselves. And an off-the-shelf product is much > > > > cheaper than one that's custom-made for one specific product. > > > > > > THis is HP we're talking about... > > > > Which is not the same as saying it were say, IBM. :-) > > I am not so sure. HP used a lot of custom parts in their machines. The > earlier desktop machines mostly had custom-designed processors, for > example : > > 9100 : Custom, and very strange discrete-transistor thing. No ALU, even... > > 98x0 : Bit-serial 16 bit processor built from TTL chips. > > 9805 : Arithmetic/Registers and Control/Timing HP custom chips (as in > handhelds), I think > > 9815 : Motoroal 6800 (OK, standard) > > 9825/9845/9835 : HP BPC processor custom hybrid module > > 8x series : HP custom 8 bit procesor (Capricorn?) > > 9000/200 series (the ones wr're talking about) : 68000, 68010 > > I would not be at all suprised if HP made/had made custom flyback > transformers. I will defer to your experience with them, but such stuff makes less and less economic sense as time goes on. I have no particular feel for the chronology of these models either, unfortunately. > > > > Did you figure most of it out or come across it somewhere else? > > > > > > Now, given that I've had this machine in many bits over the last few > > > months what do you think? > > > > If I had that much of an idea I wouldn't be asking now, would I? > > Ok, OK... Well, if I get information from other sources I do try to give > the reference (to a manual, a website, the person who told me, etc). So > in this case I claim I figured it out myself, given some help from the HP > service manual (connector pinouts), the CE manual (memory map) and plenty > of databooks. I think that giving credit is a good thing, but too often I can't remember where I read someting these days... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Oct 3 00:32:05 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 00:32:05 -0500 Subject: help (re) booting xenix after cmos battery failure In-Reply-To: <200810022334.06742.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <31701.1222910657@mini> <48E50738.8060006@mdrconsult.com> <200810022334.06742.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48E5AE55.5000406@mdrconsult.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Thursday 02 October 2008 13:39, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Failing that, I might have the diagnostic/setup floppy image. I'll >> look for it this evening. > > I think those are often pretty machine-specific, but the last time I needed > one I was able to download it from Compaq's web site. Though that was > admittedly not recently... The readme files show the 286/386 setup disks to be pretty generic. SP0308 was the one I remembered. I found what seems to be the entire SoftPaq library here: ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/ Impressive, no? Doc From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 3 00:42:57 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:42:57 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4108 terminal? Message-ID: Hi, I recently got a Tektronix 4170 and terminal from ebay. The terminal is a 4108, which I can't find in the 1985 catalog that introduces the 4170. The next catalog I have is 1989 and that lists no 41xx products. The enclosure for the terminal is very similar to a 4105, except that the finish is black and not that green-gray that is on most Tektronix gear of the period. The 4105 has a small cover on the back where you can add ROM to the terminal to enhance its functions. In this 4108, there is a cover in a similar area of the case, but it covers a set of 4 expansion slots. In my terminal, two of the slots are occupied. One looks to be memory and the other looks to be control. Had the tektronix terminal "mainframe" evolved by this time to be a substrate into which processing and memory cards were inserted to round out the system? I haven't opened the monitor case to look at it in detail. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Fri Oct 3 01:39:46 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:39:46 -0700 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) References: <48E35557.31967.1A5395A2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 1, 8 10:47:51 am, <48E4C161.17203.1FE197AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000901c92522$d39bd210$0301a8c0@hal9000> If I need a small HV power supply " on-the-cheap " I visit the local photo shop. The disposable cameras with flash have a nifty little DC-DC converter built-in and the shops throw them all in the trash after the film has been recovered. They run off of a single AA ( 1.5 VDC ) battery. The batteries are usually at about 90% of their life still left. And did I mention " free " ..... Best regards, Steven > On 2 Oct 2008 at 18:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Alternatively, consider using a transformer 'back to front'. Start of > > taking in mains and stepping it down to, say, 12V AC using a normal > > transformer in the conventional way. Yo ucan rectify/smooth/regulate that > > for your logic supply. But then take another 220V-12V trasnformer and > > connect the 12V winding to the secondary (12V) side of the first > > transformer. You'll get around 230V from the other (original primary) > > winding of that transformer. > > If you happen to have one handy in the USA, of course. Although > "universal" 95-240v transformers can be found in the US, most of the > small ones (such as are found in wall warts) are 120vac primaries > only. > > But if I had a 12vdc supply at sufficient current and needed to power > some nixies, I'd be sore tempted to work up a boost supply using any > of the currently available DC-DC converter ICs. EDN/Electronic > Design is full of such circuits (e.g. using the Maxim MAX1771). Much > more compact and not requiring much in the way of a DC filter > capacitor. > > Where I'd draw the line is with any small signal application, such as > a receiver using tubes/valves. Those converter ICs can really > generate a lot of RF noise. > > Cheers, > Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 03:02:46 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 01:02:46 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I recently got a Tektronix 4170 and terminal from ebay. The terminal is > a 4108, which I can't find in the 1985 catalog that introduces the 4170. > The next catalog I have is 1989 and that lists no 41xx products. > Actually my 1984 catalog lists the 4170 Processor. This is the local graphics processor for the terminal. It also runs versions of CPM-86 besides Tek Graphics SW. I think I still have some 4170 processor boards in my container. Are you sure of the number of the terminal. The first series of compatable terminals were the 4105, 4107, 4107(all 13") and the 4109 (19"). This is from the 1984 & 1985 catalogs. I don't seem to have a 1986. These are all Raster Graphics Terminals optimized for Tek's graphics. VT100, 4010, 4100 & 4110 compatability and need to plug into some sort of processor. In the 1987 catalog they were replaced by the 4205, 4206, 4208 and 4211. These changed the case & keyboard style and added a mouse. You can add extra ram and change the eproms for upgrade. I have manuals somewhere in the container. > The enclosure for the terminal is very similar to a 4105, except that > the finish is black and not that green-gray that is on most Tektronix > gear of the period. The 4105 has a small cover on the back where you > can add ROM to the terminal to enhance its functions. In this 4108, > there is a cover in a similar area of the case, but it covers a set of > 4 expansion slots. In my terminal, two of the slots are occupied. > One looks to be memory and the other looks to be control. > Memory is one of the slots, you can puit mopre than one in. Also there was a CX card, which was an IBM COAX interface card. > Had the tektronix terminal "mainframe" evolved by this time to be a > substrate into which processing and memory cards were inserted to > round out the system? I haven't opened the monitor case to look at it > in detail. Not really, all of these terminals used an external processing unit. The 41XX graphics terminals were full fledged graphics workstations of the time, with up to 8 plane graphics running on a 16 slot ? Multibus 1 bus. The last one I saw was upgraded to a 386 / 387. I like the 4170 because it makes a nice 8086 CPM-86 workstation. Did you get one with the 8 Meg hard drive option? Or just the Dual Floppy? Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 3 03:11:17 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 02:11:17 -0600 Subject: blog: Tektronix 4170 Local Graphics Processor Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 3 03:31:12 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 02:31:12 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Oct 2008 01:02:46 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > Actually my 1984 catalog lists the 4170 Processor. Ah, thanks for the correction. I've updated my blog post. > I think I still have some 4170 processor boards in my container. If you want to unload those, let me know. Its nice to have spares. > Are you sure of the number of the terminal. The first series of > compatable terminals were the 4105, 4107, 4107(all 13") and the 4109 > (19"). This is from the 1984 & 1985 catalogs. I don't seem to have a > 1986. Yes, its labelled in the Tektronix style quite clearly, as you can see in the photos linked from my blogpost. I have 4105s and 4205s. > You can add extra ram and change the eproms for upgrade. I have > manuals somewhere in the container. I have a 4170 User's Guide (which contains service information in the back along with a big theory of operation section; I will scan for bitsavers). The 4170 itself has two memory boards installed and a hard drive installed internal to the enclosure, so I don't think its the bargain basement model. > Memory is one of the slots, you can puit mopre than one in. Also there > was a CX card, which was an IBM COAX interface card. Are you talking about the slots on the 4170 or the 4108? I was referring to the slots on the 4108 in that post. My 4105 just has a cover to a place where you can add ROMs, but now that I look at the 4205s, they have two connectors similar (most likely identical) to the connectors in the 4108. However, the 4205 has two slots that are empty and the 4108 has four slots with two populated and two empty. > > Had the tektronix terminal "mainframe" evolved by this time to be a > > substrate into which processing and memory cards were inserted to > > round out the system? I haven't opened the monitor case to look at it > > in detail. > > Not really, all of these terminals used an external processing unit. Well, all the Tektronix terminals have microcomputers inside them handling the terminal processing. I was musing as to whether or not the 4108 used its own internal bus to do its terminal processing as well as supply an extension point. > The 41XX graphics terminals were full fledged graphics workstations of > the time, with up to 8 plane graphics running on a 16 slot ? Multibus > 1 bus. The last one I saw was upgraded to a 386 / 387. I have a 4114 that needs some work in restoring and a 4113 on its way that looks pretty tricked out and is appears to be in excellent cosmetic condition. > I like the 4170 because it makes a nice 8086 CPM-86 workstation. I'll have to inventory the diskettes and hard drive to make sure everything is backed up before playing. > Did you get one with the 8 Meg hard drive option? Or just the Dual Floppy? Ah, so its an 8 MB. I opened the case (haven't powered on yet) and inspected the inside and I could make out a 5.25" hard drive. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From james at jdfogg.com Fri Oct 3 07:42:30 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 07:42:30 -0500 Subject: Classic computing jobs Message-ID: <48e61336.204.5ac.16860@jdfogg.com> Is it appropriate to mention jobs with classic computing environments here? I know of an opening. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 07:50:00 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:50:00 +0100 Subject: Classic computing jobs In-Reply-To: <48e61336.204.5ac.16860@jdfogg.com> References: <48e61336.204.5ac.16860@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: I for one wont complain (looming redundancy) Dave Caroline On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 1:42 PM, james wrote: > Is it appropriate to mention jobs with classic computing > environments here? I know of an opening. > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Oct 3 08:07:02 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:07:02 -0400 Subject: Classic computing jobs In-Reply-To: <48e61336.204.5ac.16860@jdfogg.com> References: <48e61336.204.5ac.16860@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200810030907.02310.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 03 October 2008, james wrote: > Is it appropriate to mention jobs with classic computing > environments here? I know of an opening. Yes. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From james at jdfogg.com Fri Oct 3 10:15:38 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:15:38 -0500 Subject: VMS position in Massachusetts Message-ID: <48e6371a.4b.9d0.10466@jdfogg.com> A recruiter contacted me about a senior VMS (VAX, Alpha or Itanium) sysadmin position in Cambridge Massachusetts. This is for a permanent full-time position. The hiring company prefers deep experience (15 years), but is having trouble filling the position so my *guess* is that they are open to lesser experience. At this time, I do not know who the hiring company is. If anyone is interested in this job, drop me an email james at jdfogg.com. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 3 10:18:53 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:18:53 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E637DD.7090404@sbcglobal.net> Richard wrote: > Hi, > > I recently got a Tektronix 4170 and terminal from ebay. The terminal is > a 4108, which I can't find in the 1985 catalog that introduces the 4170. > The next catalog I have is 1989 and that lists no 41xx products. > > I looked in my 1986 and 1987 catalogs and the 4108 is not listed there. Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 3 10:29:27 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:29:27 -0700 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E63A57.8060509@sbcglobal.net> Richard wrote: > Snip... >> us. The last one I saw was upgraded to a 386 / 387. >> > > I have a 4114 that needs some work in restoring and a 4113 on its way > that looks pretty tricked out and is appears to be in excellent > cosmetic condition. > > I too have a 4114 (actually two of them) that don't work. Do you have or know where schematics can be obtained? Both of mine power up and beep what I think is an error code, but nothing on the screen. Thanks, Bob From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 3 12:33:00 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:33:00 -0600 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:29:27 -0700. <48E63A57.8060509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <48E63A57.8060509 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I too have a 4114 (actually two of them) that don't work. Do you have or > know where schematics can be obtained? I have a service manual; is there something in particular you want scanned quickly before I scan the whole thing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 13:27:48 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:27:48 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Yes, its labelled in the Tektronix style quite clearly, as you can see > in the photos linked from my blogpost. I have 4105s and 4205s. > >> You can add extra ram and change the eproms for upgrade. I have >> manuals somewhere in the container. > > I have a 4170 User's Guide (which contains service information in the > back along with a big theory of operation section; I will scan for > bitsavers). The 4170 itself has two memory boards installed and a > hard drive installed internal to the enclosure, so I don't think its > the bargain basement model. > >> Memory is one of the slots, you can puit mopre than one in. Also there >> was a CX card, which was an IBM COAX interface card. > > Are you talking about the slots on the 4170 or the 4108? I was > referring to the slots on the 4108 in that post. I was talking about the 4108 terminal. I looked at the pictures and I think what you have is a custom terminal. It has the 4208 plastics, but I suspect a 4107 card inside. The black color is custom as is the label, made by Tek. It could be an early 4208. The 4107s came stock with 256K RAM and the 4208 came stock with 512K RAM. Hopefully this would identify the board. The 4208 was expandable to 1.5 Meg of RAM with plug in memory cards. Check what the EPROMs are labeled also, I seem to remember that 4107 ROMs were labeled as such. Did you get the keyboard and mouse? I didn't see them in the pictures The 4208 case is nice because the plastic bezel above the CRT is removable and you can put two HH floppys in there. So Tek must have made a floppy controller card also. I have seen one so equipped. I have also seen custom made terminals with special Tek nametags. I think you have a rare custom terminal. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 3 13:41:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:41:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: <200810030018.34783.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Oct 3, 8 00:18:34 am Message-ID: [HP's odd designs] > Some engineer got very clever there, it sounds like, and then somebody else > in the hierarchy decided not to let you in on how that worked, in detail... That reminds me, in passing, of the HP98x0. The 'service manuals' are boardswapper guides with PSU schematics only. But HP patented the machines, and the patents (I have a list of the numbers, I think they're also on Eric Smith's site) are several hundred pages each, and include such interesting things as schematics (albeit of pre-production machines), interface schematics, the machine language instruction set, ROM sources (sysrem firmware and many of the expansion ROMs, etc). In other words what _should_ have been in the service manual... [...] > > Over 10 years ago I bought an HP LogicDart. It was expensive, but I have > > never regretted it. I've got other instrumetns that do all it will do and > > more, but that's a useful handheld tool that will find 99% of > > digital faults in classic computers, if used with that most important > > piece of diagnostic equipment -- the thing inside your head. > > Yes... I will emphasise that again. The best tools/test equipment/CAD system/whatever are no use at all unless you think about what you are doing and use them intellegently. > > The 3rd-party suppliers over here will sell you a flyback for TV model > > or monitor but they don't give any more details than that. > > A generic replacement type flyback? Or an OEM part? If it's the former then > maybe there's some hope. They're not generic, in that they don't fit more than 1 types of TV/monitor, but they're not really OEM parts, in that I suspect the original flyback came from a different supplier. I suspect in some cases the original was reverse-engineered and said third-party company came up with a functional equivalent. It's only worth their while to do this if they are likely to sell many of them, of course, so the HP9836C is not going to be on the list... I must admit I've never had any success with these third-party flybacks. I had an Amstrad VGA monitor with flyback trouble (the voltage divider block for the focus and A1 supply was reaking down), I ordered the so-called replacement and fortunately I checked out the winding connections before fitting it (that is, I checked which pins were connected by windings, which sets were totally isolated). I say fortunately, because if I'd fitted it, the 100V or so output from the monitor's SMPUS would have been directly connected to the CRT heater!. In the end Iought the genuine Amstrad part (yes, it was available, it was also a lot more expensive) and had no prolems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 3 13:27:09 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:27:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <48E4C161.17203.1FE197AC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 2, 8 12:41:05 pm Message-ID: > > Alternatively, consider using a transformer 'back to front'. Start of > > taking in mains and stepping it down to, say, 12V AC using a normal > > transformer in the conventional way. Yo ucan rectify/smooth/regulate that > > for your logic supply. But then take another 220V-12V trasnformer and > > connect the 12V winding to the secondary (12V) side of the first > > transformer. You'll get around 230V from the other (original primary) > > winding of that transformer. > > If you happen to have one handy in the USA, of course. Although > "universal" 95-240v transformers can be found in the US, most of the > small ones (such as are found in wall warts) are 120vac primaries > only. I am suprised. Over here, most mains transformers have 2 off 115V primary windings that you connect in series for 230V mains (Europe) and parallel for 115V mains (USA). I assumed (given that 115V-input transformers are not commonly needed over here) that such things were available worldwide. > But if I had a 12vdc supply at sufficient current and needed to power > some nixies, I'd be sore tempted to work up a boost supply using any > of the currently available DC-DC converter ICs. EDN/Electronic I really do find iron more reliable than silicon :-) > Design is full of such circuits (e.g. using the Maxim MAX1771). Much > more compact and not requiring much in the way of a DC filter > capacitor. > > Where I'd draw the line is with any small signal application, such as > a receiver using tubes/valves. Those converter ICs can really > generate a lot of RF noise. Totally OT, but if you're trying to run one of those valved portable radios that used a 90V HT supply, it's worth noting that a 30V transformer (the ends of a 15-0-15 winding, for example), voltage doubled, gives about 84V. That's run all the radios I've tried, including an AM/FM (yes, a valved FM portable radio) Vidor set. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 3 13:50:39 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:50:39 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:27:48 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > Did you get the keyboard and mouse? I didn't see them in the pictures Keyboard, yes. It has the joystick mouse pad on it, but did not have a separate mouse. I've noticed that Tektronix terminals of this period have a mouse port on the keyboard, but I've never gotten a mouse with the terminal. Is it known what kind of mouse you can use with the keyboard? > The 4208 case is nice because the plastic bezel above the CRT is > removable and you can put two HH floppys in there. So Tek must have > made a floppy controller card also. I have seen one so equipped. I'll take another look to see if this is the case when I get home. I don't recall seeing that bezel on top of the CRT but I wasn't looking for it. > I think you have a rare custom terminal. Excellent :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 3 14:22:39 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:22:39 -0700 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E670FF.4010100@sbcglobal.net> Richard wrote: > In article <48E63A57.8060509 at sbcglobal.net>, > Bob Rosenbloom writes: > > >> I too have a 4114 (actually two of them) that don't work. Do you have or >> know where schematics can be obtained? >> > > I have a service manual; is there something in particular you want > scanned quickly before I scan the whole thing? > Nothing in particular. If there's info on what the beeps and flashing light error codes mean, that would be a good start. I've had these terminals for a few years now so there's no hurry. I would love to get them working though. Thanks, Bob From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Oct 3 14:22:55 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:22:55 -0700 Subject: Wanted: ISO image of DEC 40th Anniversary CD Message-ID: <48E6710F.3000102@crash.com> I've just been sniped (again) for one of these on eBay (#290263627918). I don't especially care about the physical artifact, I'd just like to see what's on the thing. Anybody know where I can grab an ISO image? Thanks, --Steve. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 3 14:21:43 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:21:43 -0700 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <48E4C161.17203.1FE197AC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 2, 8 12:41:05 pm, Message-ID: <48E60E57.2594.A8286C@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2008 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > I am suprised. Over here, most mains transformers have 2 off 115V > primary windings that you connect in series for 230V mains (Europe) and > parallel for 115V mains (USA). I assumed (given that 115V-input > transformers are not commonly needed over here) that such things were > available worldwide. Well, if split-primary transformers were common here, the problem would be solved wouldn't it? Use one of the primaries as a 120v secondary and the low-voltage secondary as normal. I used to have a cache of surplus filament transformers that I'd use to power small tube/valve projects in that manner. But all wall-wart supplies that I've seen here (which is about the only easy way to obtain small power transformers) have a single 120vac primary. It might be that the cost of the extra copper required for 220vac operation justifies a separate product run for North America and Japan. (Somewhat OT is that Japanese mains power is spec-ed somewhere around 100vac. Expats who brought their US-rated appliances (such as a refrigerator) were often disappointed by the short motor life when run on Japanese power). > Totally OT, but if you're trying to run one of those valved portable > radios that used a 90V HT supply, it's worth noting that a 30V > transformer (the ends of a 15-0-15 winding, for example), voltage > doubled, gives about 84V. That's run all the radios I've tried, including > an AM/FM (yes, a valved FM portable radio) Vidor set. Given that many battery-powered sets used a 45vdc "B" battery, I would agree with you. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 3 15:29:17 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:29:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: <48E60E57.2594.A8286C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 3, 8 12:21:43 pm Message-ID: > But all wall-wart supplies that I've seen here (which is about the > only easy way to obtain small power transformers) have a single Ah... The wall-warts we have over here generally have a single primary winding too. But I don;t consider those to be particularly useful transformers. I generally buy 'loose' transformers from RS or Farnell. Although at least one of those companies sells 230V-only transfoemrs in some sizes, they certainly also sell the dual-primary ones I mentioned. > 120vac primary. It might be that the cost of the extra copper > required for 220vac operation justifies a separate product run for > North America and Japan. (Somewhat OT is that Japanese mains power is > spec-ed somewhere around 100vac. Expats who brought their US-rated Indeed. I've worked on many devices, particularly HP, which have 4 voltage selector settings -- 110V, 120V, 220 and 240V. There were typically 2 types of transformer used - -one had 2 primaries tapped 0-100-120V, the other had 1 primarly like that and a second primary of 120V (no tap). The settings worked as follows : 100V --For the first type, the 2 100V sections of the windings in parallel. For the second type, mains to the 100V sectionm, then this acted as an autotransformer providing 120V to the other winding which was connected in parallel with it 120V -- the 2 120V windings in parallel 220V -- A 120V winidng in series with a 100V one 240V -- The 2 120V windings in series. The HP THinkjet printers used the latter type, with a mains input module that contained the IEC connector, mains filter, fuse holder and a set of 5 contacts operated by a rotatable drum for the voltage selection. For some reason the exact operation of this is not in the Thinkjet service manual (even though all the rest of the schematic, PCB layouts, theory, etc are). The 9836 I've been talking about in another thread was the former type. Why, I don;t know, the votlage regulator PCB in that machine (the only thing run off the single secondary winding on the transformer) is happy with inputs from avout 18V up to 32V at least. So a simple 115/230V selector should have been fine. > appliances (such as a refrigerator) were often disappointed by the > short motor life when run on Japanese power). I am suprised that motors objected to too low a voltage. Wasn't there a frequency difference too -- I thought that some of Japan was 50Hz. That might have been more of a problem > > > Totally OT, but if you're trying to run one of those valved portable > > radios that used a 90V HT supply, it's worth noting that a 30V > > transformer (the ends of a 15-0-15 winding, for example), voltage > > doubled, gives about 84V. That's run all the radios I've tried, including > > an AM/FM (yes, a valved FM portable radio) Vidor set. > > Given that many battery-powered sets used a 45vdc "B" battery, I > would agree with you. Over here, a few sets used 67.5V HT batteries, but most used 90V. Older sets (with a 2V 'wet cell' accumulator for the LT (A battery)) used 120V or 150V I think. I'd seen 45V batteries listed, but I assumed (incorrectly, I guess) that they were normally used in pairs to give 90V. I've never seen a radio that used them, I do have one device, totally off-topic, that should use one. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Oct 3 15:37:47 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:37:47 -0400 Subject: rt-11 v4 manuals - still want them? Message-ID: <28475.1223066267@mini> I finally (months, years) boxed up the rt-11 v4 manuals I have. If I remember correctly you said you wanted them. If you email me your shipping address I will ups them to you. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 15:51:57 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:51:57 +0200 Subject: Wanted: ISO image of DEC 40th Anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <48E6710F.3000102@crash.com> References: <48E6710F.3000102@crash.com> Message-ID: From: "Steven M Jones" Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 9:22 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Wanted: ISO image of DEC 40th Anniversary CD > I've just been sniped (again) for one of these on eBay (#290263627918). I > don't especially care about the physical artifact, I'd just like to see > what's on the thing. Anybody know where I can grab an ISO image? > > Thanks, > --Steve. I could be wrong, but the buyer is also on CCtalk. If just a few people on this list are only interested in the contents, not the CD itself, perhaps the buyer can be persuaded to recover the shipping costs (and may be the puchase itself too), by setting up an ftp address a email that address to persons "donating" say $1 or $2. I'd be interested ... - Henk, PA8PDP From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Oct 3 16:39:45 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 14:39:45 -0700 Subject: Wanted: ISO image of DEC 40th Anniversary CD In-Reply-To: References: <48E6710F.3000102@crash.com> Message-ID: <48E69121.9040907@crash.com> Henk Gooijen wrote: > > I could be wrong, but the buyer is also on CCtalk. He is indeed, and was gracious enough to contact me despite any potential negative implications of my use of the term "sniping." ;^) He's offered to make the contents available somehow. Let's give him a chance to receive it first! I'd be happy to make it available if it isn't convenient for him to do so. --Steve. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 3 17:28:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:28:28 -0700 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <48E60E57.2594.A8286C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 3, 8 12:21:43 pm, Message-ID: <48E63A1C.14773.1532264@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2008 at 21:29, Tony Duell wrote: > I am suprised that motors objected to too low a voltage. Wasn't there a > frequency difference too -- I thought that some of Japan was 50Hz. That > might have been more of a problem Induction motors run on too-low voltage tend to draw too much current, leading to overheating, particularly in those applications where a more-or-less constant load that runs the motor near its nameplate rating is encountered. You can sometimes find under- voltage protection devices on industrial equipment motors. Many small motors are impedance-protected, so operating, say, an equipment cooling fan motor on low voltage is probably safe. On the other hand, I've run 220v 25Hz induction motors on 120v 60Hz just fine--or at least they didn't burn up. > I'd seen 45V batteries listed, but I assumed (incorrectly, I guess) that > they were normally used in pairs to give 90V. I've never seen a radio > that used them, I do have one device, totally off-topic, that should use one. The 45v batteries were widely used in photoflash units, as well as some early portable radios. 67.5 and 90v batters were also used here- -and then for photographic strobe applications, 225, 450 and 510v dry batteries for very fast recovery times. 510v was the highest-voltage widely-available primary battery that I'm aware of. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 3 20:13:05 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:13:05 -0400 Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810032113.06345.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 03 October 2008 14:41, Tony Duell wrote: > [HP's odd designs] > > > Some engineer got very clever there, it sounds like, and then somebody > > else in the hierarchy decided not to let you in on how that worked, in > > detail... > > That reminds me, in passing, of the HP98x0. The 'service manuals' are > boardswapper guides with PSU schematics only. But HP patented the > machines, and the patents (I have a list of the numbers, I think they're > also on Eric Smith's site) are several hundred pages each, and include > such interesting things as schematics (albeit of pre-production > machines), interface schematics, the machine language instruction set, > ROM sources (sysrem firmware and many of the expansion ROMs, etc). In > other words what _should_ have been in the service manual... They actually put ROM sources in the patent? Wow. I wouldn't have expected that. What I would like, if not stuff quite so detailed, is something along the lines of "this is how it's supposed to act" for a lot of stuff out there. Like all those VCRs that I encountered that simply wouldn't turn on, where I went looking for power supply and all sorts of other issues initially only to find that if the controller chip in there didn't get what it considered to be a sensible response from the mechanism when it tried to move things it would give up. Causes were as simple as bad belts, etc. > [...] > > > > Over 10 years ago I bought an HP LogicDart. It was expensive, but I > > > have never regretted it. I've got other instrumetns that do all it will > > > do and more, but that's a useful handheld tool that will find 99% of > > > digital faults in classic computers, if used with that most important > > > piece of diagnostic equipment -- the thing inside your head. > > > > Yes... > > I will emphasise that again. The best tools/test equipment/CAD > system/whatever are no use at all unless you think about what you are > doing and use them intellegently. I had the good fortune to have a teacher way back when who knew this stuff well, and who taught me how to troubleshoot, though some of that was late in coming to fruition. :-) > > > The 3rd-party suppliers over here will sell you a flyback for TV model > > > or monitor but they don't give any more details than that. > > > > A generic replacement type flyback? Or an OEM part? If it's the former > > then maybe there's some hope. > > They're not generic, in that they don't fit more than 1 types of > TV/monitor, but they're not really OEM parts, in that I suspect the > original flyback came from a different supplier. I suspect in some cases > the original was reverse-engineered and said third-party company came up > with a functional equivalent. It's only worth their while to do this if > they are likely to sell many of them, of course, so the HP9836C is not > going to be on the list... Hmm. > I must admit I've never had any success with these third-party flybacks. > I had an Amstrad VGA monitor with flyback trouble (the voltage divider > block for the focus and A1 supply was reaking down), Snap, Crackle, Pop! :-) > I ordered the so-called replacement and fortunately I checked out the > winding connections before fitting it (that is, I checked which pins were > connected by windings, which sets were totally isolated). I say > fortunately, because if I'd fitted it, the 100V or so output from the > monitor's SMPUS would have been directly connected to the CRT heater!. In > the end Iought the genuine Amstrad part (yes, it was available, it was > also a lot more expensive) and had no prolems. Interesting. And yes, I've encountered the occasoinal bad cross-reference too, though thankfully they're not all that common. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 3 20:15:35 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:15:35 -0400 Subject: LED displays (TIL305, TIL308, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810032115.35665.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 03 October 2008 14:27, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Alternatively, consider using a transformer 'back to front'. Start of > > > taking in mains and stepping it down to, say, 12V AC using a normal > > > transformer in the conventional way. Yo ucan rectify/smooth/regulate > > > that for your logic supply. But then take another 220V-12V trasnformer > > > and connect the 12V winding to the secondary (12V) side of the first > > > transformer. You'll get around 230V from the other (original primary) > > > winding of that transformer. > > > > If you happen to have one handy in the USA, of course. Although > > "universal" 95-240v transformers can be found in the US, most of the > > small ones (such as are found in wall warts) are 120vac primaries > > only. > > I am suprised. Over here, most mains transformers have 2 off 115V > primary windings that you connect in series for 230V mains (Europe) and > parallel for 115V mains (USA). I assumed (given that 115V-input > transformers are not commonly needed over here) that such things were > available worldwide. I've seen those in some equipment, and not in other stuff from the same mfr., said mfr. being into distributing products worldwide. In some cases they'd use a different transformer, rather than the single more "universal" one. > > But if I had a 12vdc supply at sufficient current and needed to power > > some nixies, I'd be sore tempted to work up a boost supply using any > > of the currently available DC-DC converter ICs. EDN/Electronic > > I really do find iron more reliable than silicon :-) :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 3 20:30:18 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:30:18 -0400 Subject: boards Message-ID: <200810032130.19013.rtellason@verizon.net> In going through my stuff I've come across some boards that may be of interest. I've uploaded some pictures here: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020085.jpg I'm not sure what this is. The big ceramic cased device is an 8x300 series part, maybe 8x305? I can double-check that if anyone's interested. The rest of the board is generic TTL mostly. http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020086.jpg http//mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020087.jpg This one I have no idea about, most of the 14/16-pin parts are generic 4000-series CMOS and the 8-pin parts appear to be linear chips, op amps and such. The second pic is the panel on the left side of the first pic. Then there's this one: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020088.jpg ...a PMMI modem! I remember seeing that referenced a whole lot when I was hacking away at CP/M comm programs, that seemed to be included in a bunch of them. Anybody interested in taking any of this stuff off my hands, feel free to contact me offlist. On that last one in particular, I'd like to get somewhat more than shipping costs. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 3 20:52:03 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:52:03 -0400 Subject: boards In-Reply-To: <200810032130.19013.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200810032130.19013.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200810032152.03804.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 03 October 2008 21:30, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020086.jpg > http//mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020087.jpg Whoops, that second one should be: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020087.jpg Looks like the ":" got left out first time around... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Oct 3 20:56:37 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 01:56:37 +0000 Subject: boards In-Reply-To: <200810032130.19013.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200810032130.19013.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20081004015637.GA14085@usap.gov> On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 09:30:18PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > In going through my stuff I've come across some boards that may be of > interest. I've uploaded some pictures here: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020085.jpg > > I'm not sure what this is. The big ceramic cased device is an 8x300 series > part, maybe 8x305? I can double-check that if anyone's interested. The > rest of the board is generic TTL mostly. It says on it "WD1001" - it's a Western Digital WD-1001 disk controller. I've never had one that old, but it resembles other 8-bit disk controllers of the era that I have seen. The mounting bracket makes me think of one of the early clone machines - Eagle? It appears to support up to 4 drives (from counting connectors). > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020086.jpg > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020087.jpg > > This one I have no idea about, most of the 14/16-pin parts are generic > 4000-series CMOS and the 8-pin parts appear to be linear chips, op amps and > such. The second pic is the panel on the left side of the first pic. I don't know what that one is, either, but UDS made modems and autodialers and such - perhaps some critical telecom-function daughtercard sits on those female molex connectors? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 4-Oct-2008 at 01:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -52.8 F (-47.1 C) Windchill -93.3 F (-69.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 19.9 kts Grid 35 Barometer 676.9 mb (10745 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Oct 3 21:06:14 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 22:06:14 -0400 Subject: Searching for Manual - Hazeltine 1410 Terminal Message-ID: <48E6CF96.6050204@comcast.net> Would anyone have a service manual for the Hazeltine 1410 terminal ? I have a peculiar problem where several keys output a different character. I found there's a pattern to this chaos. From looking at the ascii data, bits 5 and 6 become swapped only for characters between 40h and 5Fh. instead of an 'A' it displays a '!" and it continues like this. I'm afraid the i8243 chip might be bad but I'm not completely sure. I found the i8243 datasheet and currently trying to trace the connections. I hear this chip is hard to come by. I only found one supplier so far which I'm waiting to hear back on the rfq. thanks =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 3 21:28:22 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 22:28:22 -0400 Subject: boards In-Reply-To: <20081004015637.GA14085@usap.gov> References: <200810032130.19013.rtellason@verizon.net> <20081004015637.GA14085@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200810032228.24367.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 03 October 2008 21:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 09:30:18PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > In going through my stuff I've come across some boards that may be of > > interest. I've uploaded some pictures here: > > > > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020085.jpg > > > > I'm not sure what this is. The big ceramic cased device is an 8x300 > > series part, maybe 8x305? I can double-check that if anyone's > > interested. The rest of the board is generic TTL mostly. > > It says on it "WD1001" - it's a Western Digital WD-1001 disk controller. > I've never had one that old, but it resembles other 8-bit disk controllers > of the era that I have seen. The mounting bracket makes me think of one > of the early clone machines - Eagle? Duh! :-) I should've taken note of that... > It appears to support up to 4 drives (from counting connectors). > > > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020086.jpg > > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020087.jpg > > > > This one I have no idea about, most of the 14/16-pin parts are generic > > 4000-series CMOS and the 8-pin parts appear to be linear chips, op amps > > and such. The second pic is the panel on the left side of the first pic. > > I don't know what that one is, either, but UDS made modems and autodialers > and such - perhaps some critical telecom-function daughtercard sits on > those female molex connectors? Could be. The transformer is definitely similar to the line transformers I've seen in modems. The TO-66 cased device on that end of the board is _not_ simply a transistor, it has 8 or 9 pins in a circle, something I'd meant to mention in my post but forgot until I looked at the pic again. That board also appears to have a bunch of configuration stuff done by soldering jumpers in various places. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 3 21:59:27 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:59:27 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:50:39 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > > The 4208 case is nice because the plastic bezel above the CRT is > > removable and you can put two HH floppys in there. So Tek must have > > made a floppy controller card also. I have seen one so equipped. > > I'll take another look to see if this is the case when I get home. I > don't recall seeing that bezel on top of the CRT but I wasn't looking > for it. OK, I've had a chance to look in there and you're right. The bezel revealed a cavity in which the power and RS-232 cords were stored. Its about the size of two half-height 5.25" drives, just as you said. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tonym at compusource.net Fri Oct 3 23:29:43 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:29:43 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC References: <6068874CCDB54E17A4E289B5EDE672DA@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <003101c925d9$d39c5a20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Yo, Tony here (Sharkonwheels on VC) Got any boards left? CPU board, ECB backplane, and (if ready) FDD/IDE board. Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Lynch" To: Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 5:04 PM Subject: RE: Z80 home brew with FDC > > Z80 home brew with FDC > > Eric Smith eric at brouhaha.com > ply-To=200809220822.16872.thrashbarg%40kaput.homeunix.org> > Sun Sep 21 20:02:25 CDT 2008 > > * Previous message: Z80 home brew with FDC > * Next message: Z80 home brew with FDC > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > ________________________________ > > Alexis wrote: >> The FDC-1 uses a FD179x controller and it appears it uses the same >> data clock and raw data inputs as the 765. > > Not quite. I don't recall the details of the difference, but I think it > may have just been the polarity of one of the signals. The 9229 and > 9239 had a configuration input to select between 179x and 765 modes. > The 9216 would directly connect to one, and needed a small amount of > logic (maybe just an inverter) for the other. > >> The decoder is made up of a 74LS197 (clock divider), a dual 74LS74 > flip-flop, >> both used, a 74LS163 counter and an inverter. There are also some open >> collector NAND gates to select the clock rate for either 8" or 5.25" > drives. >> It'll use more individual IC packages, but they're *much* easier to find. > > Sure, but it doesn't sound like it's a very good data separator. The > good ones have a PLL (either analog or digital), because it is necessary > to track speed variations, not just of the drive that you're using to > read a disk, but also of the drive that wrote it. Non-PLL data > separators work OK when the disk is both written and read under optimal > conditions, but are unreliable otherwise. > > The 9216, 9229 or 9239 are *highly* recommended, as they have a good > digital data separator. The 9229 and 9239 also contain write precomp > logic. The 9239 uses higher resolution timing for its PLL, so it may > perform better. > > > ------REPLY------ > > Hi, > > Eric is right about the FDC9229 being mode selectable between 179x and 765 > modes. It makes a difference in a number of output frequencies, etc. > Check > the datasheet. It is at the bitsavers.org URL I posted previously. > > I can't speak to the PLL issue but Eric is consistent with what I have > read > and heard previously. You can make data separator replacements from TTL > but > the FDC9229 data separators are really good and provide more than just > data > separation. They do a whole host of functions such as FDC clock, data > window, variable write precompensation, etc. I recommend them and they > are > fairly easy to work with. They are not easy to find but they are > available > if you look enough. > > Is anyone interested in adding a 765 based FDC to their Z80 home brew > computer? This design is mostly done and just needs some road testing and > another set of eyes to check it out. The software is kind of crude but > working. There are only a couple of modifications left on the hardware. > First is to attach the FDC9229 write precompensation pins to the latch and > second is to connect the remaining two latch pins to FDC interface pin 2 > and > 34. The hardware will probably get finished this week some time. The > software will probably take a while though. > > Tonight I read and wrote sectors on the IBM PC 360K 5.25" floppy disk. On > the same disk, I formatted some tracks so these functions seem to be > working > in both DD and HD mode. Also verified with Catweasel that the 1.4M 3.5" > floppy disk is generating correct tracks. All the sector header > information > is checking out right it seems. > > BTW, when working on this FDC project, I cannot say enough good things > about > the Catweasel. It is like have having x-ray vision into what is being > written to the disk and shows all sorts of hidden stuff. Very helpful > when > you can check independently what the i8272 is doing compared to what it > will > tell you it is doing. > > Thanks! > > Andrew Lynch > > From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 4 00:05:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 23:05:58 -0600 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:22:39 -0700. <48E670FF.4010100@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hrm... I misremembered; I *don't* have a service manual for a 411[34]; I was thinking of the service manual for the 4014 and the 4051. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 00:52:48 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:52:48 -0700 Subject: Searching for Manual - Hazeltine 1410 Terminal In-Reply-To: <48E6CF96.6050204@comcast.net> References: <48E6CF96.6050204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90810032252g6653fc88p666df87cd412eea8@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > I'm afraid the i8243 > chip might be bad but I'm not completely sure. I found the i8243 datasheet > and currently trying to trace the connections. I hear this chip is hard to > come by. I only found one supplier so far which I'm waiting to hear back on > the rfq. 8243 I/O expander? Unicorn Electronics lists them at $4.29 http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 02:00:44 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:00:44 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Keyboard, yes. It has the joystick mouse pad on it, but did not have > a separate mouse. I've noticed that Tektronix terminals of this > period have a mouse port on the keyboard, but I've never gotten a > mouse with the terminal. Is it known what kind of mouse you can use > with the keyboard? The Tek mouse is a 3 button Logitech wedge shaped mouse. However I seem to remember it is a parallel mouse where the normal PC one was a serial mouse and not compatible. D9 connector. It worked with all Tek terminals of the day. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Oct 4 06:31:04 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 07:31:04 -0400 Subject: Searching for Manual - Hazeltine 1410 Terminal In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90810032252g6653fc88p666df87cd412eea8@mail.gmail.com> References: <48E6CF96.6050204@comcast.net> <1e1fc3e90810032252g6653fc88p666df87cd412eea8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48E753F8.2090302@comcast.net> Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> I'm afraid the i8243 >> chip might be bad but I'm not completely sure. I found the i8243 datasheet >> and currently trying to trace the connections. I hear this chip is hard to >> come by. I only found one supplier so far which I'm waiting to hear back on >> the rfq. >> > > 8243 I/O expander? Unicorn Electronics lists them at $4.29 > > http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ That's the one - thanks for the tip. I keep Unicorn Electronics at the top of my bookmarks for most searches I guess my eyes were tired that nite :) One thing I noticed is that search engine Octopart.com doesn't include parts suppliers like them. I already sent them feedback about the missing suppliers. =Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 4 11:45:01 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 09:45:01 -0700 Subject: WD1001 (Fortune-32?) Was: boards Message-ID: <48E79D8D.1080704@bitsavers.org> http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020085.jpg I haven't seen the inside of one for a while, but this may be for a Fortune-32 JAM or someone with a machine handy (Eric?) could confirm it. There were different 'dash' configurations for the WD1001, according to the WD catalog. The ones listed use ribbon cable connectors. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 4 12:08:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:08:46 -0700 Subject: WD1001 (Fortune-32?) Was: boards In-Reply-To: <48E79D8D.1080704@bitsavers.org> References: <48E79D8D.1080704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48E740AE.16565.2C9368@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Oct 2008 at 9:45, Al Kossow wrote: > There were different 'dash' configurations for the WD1001, according > to the WD catalog. The ones listed use ribbon cable connectors. There were *many* OEM specials of the WD1001. I've got one on my Durango F85 here using a proprietary bus. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 4 12:20:18 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:20:18 -0400 Subject: WD1001 (Fortune-32?) Was: boards In-Reply-To: <48E740AE.16565.2C9368@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48E79D8D.1080704@bitsavers.org> <48E740AE.16565.2C9368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200810041320.19134.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 04 October 2008 13:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Oct 2008 at 9:45, Al Kossow wrote: > > There were different 'dash' configurations for the WD1001, according > > to the WD catalog. The ones listed use ribbon cable connectors. > > There were *many* OEM specials of the WD1001. I've got one on my > Durango F85 here using a proprietary bus. Well, I posted the pics hoping that somebody might have a use for the thing, rather than I just end up scrapping it for the chips. Anybody wanna take it off my hands? Let me know. Not that it takes up all _that_ much room, but... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 14:30:49 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 15:30:49 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC Message-ID: ________________________________ Yo, Tony here (Sharkonwheels on VC) Got any boards left? CPU board, ECB backplane, and (if ready) FDD/IDE board. Tony [snip] -----REPLY----- Hi Tony! Thanks! Yes, I have several PCBs left. I have N8VEM SBCs, ECB backplanes, and ECB bus monitor PCBs. I just received the ECB bus monitor PCBs and haven't finished building mine yet. Some of the other builders are helping out by taking the lead on the first ECB bus monitor for build and test phase while I continue work on the Disk IO board. The ECB backplanes are going fast which rather surprises me. I have only a few left and am going to have to reorder. The builders who have ECB backplanes seem to like them though. The Disk IO prototype is working fine so I am writing up the schematic and doing the PCB layout right now. I'll be posting the schematic and PCB layout for some much appreciated peer review in the next few days. I am still doing quality checking on them to make sure they are right. The IDE portion looks OK but the FDC portion is complex and has me concerned. The big difference between the prototype and the manufactured PCB will be several option jumpers and a "feature" connector to help builders who want 8" drive support. Thanks and have a nice day! Please contact me offline if you'd like some PCBs. They are still $20 each plus shipping. Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 4 15:10:15 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:10:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: <200810032113.06345.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Oct 3, 8 09:13:05 pm Message-ID: > > That reminds me, in passing, of the HP98x0. The 'service manuals' are > > boardswapper guides with PSU schematics only. But HP patented the > > machines, and the patents (I have a list of the numbers, I think they're > > also on Eric Smith's site) are several hundred pages each, and include > > such interesting things as schematics (albeit of pre-production > > machines), interface schematics, the machine language instruction set, > > ROM sources (sysrem firmware and many of the expansion ROMs, etc). In > > other words what _should_ have been in the service manual... > > They actually put ROM sources in the patent? Wow. I wouldn't have expected Oh yes. With explanations of what's going on too ! > that. What I would like, if not stuff quite so detailed, is something > along the lines of "this is how it's supposed to act" for a lot of stuff out > there. Like all those VCRs that I encountered that simply wouldn't turn on, > where I went looking for power supply and all sorts of other issues initially > only to find that if the controller chip in there didn't get what it > considered to be a sensible response from the mechanism when it tried to move > things it would give up. Causes were as simple as bad belts, etc. Oh don't get me started on that. If we go back to the machine that started this thread, the HP9836C. One of the faults in mine was that it reported 'Floppy Disk Missing' in the power-on test. In other words it hadn't found the floppy controller card. Now, the normal way that add-ons are detected in these machines is by seeing if said device assets DTACK/ or whether there's a bus timout, but the DTACK/ for the floppy controller is producted on one of the other boards (basically all intenral I/O gets the DTACK/ produced there) So it wasn't that. In fact it didn[t take me long to rrealise that it detected a floppy controller iff it could do a read/write to the first byte (I think) of the 256 byte sector buffer on the card. As soon as I spotted this was implemented with 2114s [1]s, I knew what to do. I remplaced them, and put the card back in, not conencted to any drives, and tired again. A great improvement. It then reported 'Disk drive not responding' or something like that. Which made sense as there were no drives. So I cabled up drive 0 [2] and tried agqin. I then got a 'Floppy Drive Failed' error.. After much testing, putting the drive on an exerciser, looking at signals round the FDC chip, etc, I realised that being a 9836 (and not a 9826), it was expecting 2 drives. If you gave it 2 drives, it correctly reported '2 Floppy Drives'. If yoy gave it 1, you didn't get '1 Floppy Drive' you got 'Floppy Drive Failed'. And this isn't in the boardswapper guide either! [2] In this machine, the drives are jumpered to be permanently enabled, and have separate cables back to the controller board [3]. This means the controller board can continually monitor the Wprot/ line to detect when disks are changed. [3] The first version of the controller, which I've never seen 'in the flesh' had one 34 pin cable soldered to it, and could only be used with one drive. Thus this controller is used in the 9826 only. The second version has a 34 pin cable soldred to it for drive 0 (in 9826s and 9836s) and a 34 pin header plug, into which a second cable is pluged for drive 1 in the 9836. You would ahve liked the way I had the machine set up for this. I wanted to be able to work on the PCBs easily, which essentially meant not having any case parts in the way. So what I had was : The monitor on the bench, with the computer's motherboard on top of it. Monitor cable plugged into the back of the motherboard. Video boards (and brightness control cabled up in the normal way. CPU board in its normal slot. Floppy controller in its normal slot. 1M memory board in the slot for the expansion backplane (I didn't need any more slots, the pinputs are similar enough -- jsut 2 signals, not used on memory boards different -- for this to work Keyboard connected by normal ribbon cable and placed between the edge of the monitor and the top of a bench PSU (see later). PSU PCB in the normal motherboard slot, but not connected to the HP transoformer/rectifier bits. Instead I wired a spare edge connector to take power from that bench PSU to the regulator board input. [...] > > I must admit I've never had any success with these third-party flybacks. > > I had an Amstrad VGA monitor with flyback trouble (the voltage divider > > block for the focus and A1 supply was breaking down), > > Snap, Crackle, Pop! :-) Actually not. It was just that the picture got ever brighter and more out of focus as the monitor warmed up. Checking the CRT pin voltages revealed the obvious (A1 going up, and I think focus coming down, but I wouldn't bet on that).Further tests showed the problems was alsmost certainly the flyback and not leakage in the CRT, replacing the flyback proved it. -tony From kth at srv.net Sat Oct 4 15:57:37 2008 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 14:57:37 -0600 Subject: VT220 Keyboard Error 4? In-Reply-To: <8CAF3181CF6FFE5-183C-1654@FWM-M38.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAF3181CF6FFE5-183C-1654@FWM-M38.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <48E7D8C1.60408@srv.net> tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > I tend to look for the simpler explanations first. > > If your keyboard was previously working, > the first place I would check is the MMJ > on the back of the terminal. > > I've seen everything from malformed pins, > to corrosion, to spider webs, to dead bugs > inside RJ12 / RJ45 connectors. > > Another point of failure is the?MMJ on the keyboard cable; > you can try removing that, and re-crimping it. > > The keyboard doesn't use a MMJ connector. It's a regular RJ connector. Try replacing that cable first, it has RJ connectors on both ends for the LK201 models. Check to see if the keyboard has power by hitting the shift-lock key. The shift-lock light should go on. If it does go on, try the setup key. If you get a setup screen, then the keyboard is probably ok, and you actually have a communication problem between the terminal and the computer. A common problem seems to be corrosion on the connectors inside the keyboard. This is the connectors use to attach the plastic circuit board to the main logic board. They are tightly held, and you may need to un-bend the connector from the circuit board. Putting it back together can also be tricky, so do it as a last resort. From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Sat Oct 4 16:38:32 2008 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (sbolton) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 17:38:32 -0400 Subject: WD1001 (Fortune-32?) In-Reply-To: <200810041700.m94H0OUO086867@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810041700.m94H0OUO086867@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <90d673cfd0407e8f7103268ac6ce360b@bfree.on.ca> > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020085.jpg > I haven't seen the inside of one for a while, but this may be for a > Fortune-32 > JAM or someone with a machine handy (Eric?) could confirm it. Al - we have one of those machines here at the Personal Computer Museum (pcmuseum.ca) - if you can give me a couple of days, I can confirm this if nobody else has one handy. From devilanse at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 18:08:56 2008 From: devilanse at gmail.com (Keith Froedge) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 19:08:56 -0400 Subject: HP 9000/300 computers available Message-ID: <7d623c680810041608t5876f651xe87f1944745dc57b@mail.gmail.com> Hello, The company I work for has approximately 15 HP 9000/300 computers available. These are mainly the 310 models. There are a couple of other models too. Most of them have the SRM boards installed. There is also a HP9826 available. Also are keyboards and monitors. There are NO hard drives or floppy drives. We are going to do an renovation of the area they are stored in. They are free for local pick up in Lexington KY or if you arrange for freight pickup, we will put them on a pallet and wrap them. If there are no takers in 30 days, they will be scrapped. thanks Max From jam at magic.com Sat Oct 4 18:16:46 2008 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WD1001 (Fortune-32?) Was: boards Message-ID: <200810042316.QAA27708@magellan.magic.com> Roy, Al, > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/pa020085.jpg > > I haven't seen the inside of one for a while, but this may be for a Fortune-32 > JAM or someone with a machine handy (Eric?) could confirm it. Yes, that's a hard disk controller for the Fortune 32:16 computer. I would be happy to save it from going to the scrap heap. James Markevitch From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 19:21:04 2008 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 02:21:04 +0200 Subject: Got Nova 1220, but no key :( Message-ID: Hi, I have this Data General Nova 1220 sitting here which seems in good shape. But I don't have the front panel key, which is in the "lock" position. The PDP11 keys I have do not work :( Any hint ? Thank you ! -- Stephane Paris, France. From technobug at comcast.net Sat Oct 4 19:28:15 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:28:15 -0700 Subject: AM9511 - AM9512 Manuals In-Reply-To: <48E02094.70701@comcast.net> References: <3C841129-C0DF-45C1-9B53-1245C6D95CEB@comcast.net> <48E02094.70701@comcast.net> Message-ID: <105D5B05-1FEF-4CB2-8D6C-4ECD11F0C34A@comcast.net> I've uploaded scans of: "Algorithm Details for The Am9511 Arithmetic Processing Unit" "Am9511A/Am9512 Floating Point Processor Manual" Enjoy, CRC From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 4 19:32:46 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 18:32:46 -0600 Subject: Got Nova 1220, but no key :( In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 05 Oct 2008 02:21:04 +0200. Message-ID: In article , "Stephane Tsacas" writes: > I have this Data General Nova 1220 sitting here which seems in good shape. > > But I don't have the front panel key, which is in the "lock" position. Can you disassemble the cabinet enough to remove the lock core? Usually these things are simply lockwashered onto the back of the door and if you can disassemble the cabinet enough, then you can remove the core of the lock and replace it with another one, or remove it to have a key made. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Oct 4 19:51:41 2008 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:51:41 -0400 Subject: Got Nova 1220, but no key :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Any hint ? The code for a Data General key is XX2065. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 22:17:49 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:17:49 -0700 Subject: WD1001 (Fortune-32?) Was: boards In-Reply-To: <200810041320.19134.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48E79D8D.1080704@bitsavers.org> <48E740AE.16565.2C9368@cclist.sydex.com> <200810041320.19134.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi This would be a great board to connect a MFM hard drive to a project computer. It wouldn't take much to connect to most any computer, even an old S100. These used a sector buffer so there is no issue with a slow bus. Most all the implementations of the WD1001 used that same instructions. It would be truely easy to get this to work for most anything. I put a different version of a WD1001 on my Olivetti M20. It was a little easier than most because it already had the software driver for it but I did have to write my own low level format. This board is much easier to use than floppy boards because it buffers the data and doesn't require faster bus responses. Dwight > From: rtellason at verizon.net> > On Saturday 04 October 2008 13:08, Chuck Guzis wrote:> > On 4 Oct 2008 at 9:45, Al Kossow wrote:> > > There were different 'dash' configurations for the WD1001, according> > > to the WD catalog. The ones listed use ribbon cable connectors.> >> > There were *many* OEM specials of the WD1001. I've got one on my> > Durango F85 here using a proprietary bus.> > Well, I posted the pics hoping that somebody might have a use for the thing, > rather than I just end up scrapping it for the chips.> > Anybody wanna take it off my hands? Let me know. Not that it takes up all > _that_ much room, but...> > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and> ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can> be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"> -> Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From mbg at world.std.com Sat Oct 4 22:35:28 2008 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 23:35:28 -0400 Subject: Making an RT-11 boot disk In-Reply-To: References: <46830CE7-629C-4C28-89E7-C076BA8EBA45@xlisper.com> <006101c77ba7$b30c4870$6700a8c0@BILLING> <143E1501-8F46-4319-B781-3C4415025A0C@xlisper.com> <461C2CC3.3010101@hachti.de> <0D3AF900-FEEF-4497-A577-11F5951EE7E7@xlisper.com> <461C37FC.8030004@hachti.de> Message-ID: <48E83600.7020307@world.std.com> David Betz wrote: >> >>> Okay, I think I see how to do it: >>> set du0 unit=0, part=0 >>> set du1 unit=0, part=1 >>> set du2 unit=0, part=2 >>> set du3 unit=0, part=3 >> Yes, that looks familiar. >> >>> If I do this, I wonder where my RX33 will be assigned. Is it assigned >>> du4 since du0-3 are already taken by partitions? >> Hm.... >> Every MSCP device has a device number. And you have to tell the driver >> on which device number and partition it should work. >> So if your RX33 (what IS that??) has unit number 0, you can create the >> devices as above. If you have different drives, you have to use unit=x. > > An RX33 is a 1.2mb 5.25" floppy drive. Actually, I guess I just didn't > think hard enough. When I didn't have *any* set commands, the drives > were automatically assigned DU0=RD54 and DU1=RX33. My guess then is that > the RD54 is unit 0 and the RX33 is unit 1. The suggests that if I just > add the line: > > set du4 unit=1 > > I should get the RX33 assigned to DU4: > > I guess I should think before I type in questions. Sorry! > Typically, one would do set du0 unit=0 part=0 set du1 unit=1 part=0 set du2 unit=2 part=0 set du3 unit=3 part=0 so that all your physical units map to the device units in a way you expect... then you add the alternate partitions: set du4 unit=0 part=1 set du5 unit=0 part=2 set du6 unit=0 part=3 set du7 unit=0 part=4 or whatever you need to get at the other partitions on an RD drive. Or, you could use the 64-bit version of the driver, in which case you have units D00 - D77 (octal unit numbers)... I leave the mapping of ports, units and partitions to you... I can't keep that many straight in my head... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer From mbg at world.std.com Sat Oct 4 22:40:50 2008 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 23:40:50 -0400 Subject: Help with PDP-11 Unibus Map Hardware / Software under RT-11 In-Reply-To: <46B8CCB7.5080909@compsys.to> References: <46B8CCB7.5080909@compsys.to> Message-ID: <48E83742.3020009@world.std.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Megan are you still watching the list? Allison, if you can't answer, > can anyone > but Megan help? Is anyone else familiar enough with the "Unibus Map" that > you can suggest what RT-11 actually needs to do with the "Unibus Map"? I wasn't able to due to limitations of time from jobs, life and hardware problems... but I'm finally back now... I would suggest taking a look at the DEUNA/DELUA ethernet driver... I seem to remember it using the unibus map. I would have to consult the sources I have to find out what the system really does... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Oct 4 22:59:35 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 23:59:35 -0400 Subject: AM9511 - AM9512 Manuals In-Reply-To: <105D5B05-1FEF-4CB2-8D6C-4ECD11F0C34A@comcast.net> References: <3C841129-C0DF-45C1-9B53-1245C6D95CEB@comcast.net> <48E02094.70701@comcast.net> <105D5B05-1FEF-4CB2-8D6C-4ECD11F0C34A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48E83BA7.7060902@comcast.net> CRC wrote: > I've uploaded scans of: > > "Algorithm Details for The Am9511 Arithmetic Processing Unit" > > > "Am9511A/Am9512 Floating Point Processor Manual" > THANKS !!! they turned out great. =Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 5 11:03:22 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 09:03:22 -0700 Subject: Looking for Norsk Data ND-100 info. Message-ID: <48E8E54A.4030308@bitsavers.org> > I'm looking for ND-100 information. Some documents are now on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/norskData From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 5 12:24:08 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 10:24:08 -0700 Subject: UNIX PC 3.51 development floppies Message-ID: <48E8F838.2010803@bitsavers.org> are now up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/unixPC with the exception of the virtual device interface disk, which was completely unreadable (seems odd, since all the rest read perfectly) From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 5 13:45:58 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:45:58 -0400 Subject: a few more manuals Message-ID: <200810051445.58735.rtellason@verizon.net> I've added a few user manuals and such to my manuals page, some of which might be of interest... http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/manuals.html -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 5 14:15:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:15:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 4, 8 09:10:15 pm Message-ID: [...] > read/write to the first byte (I think) of the 256 byte sector buffer on > the card. As soon as I spotted this was implemented with 2114s [1]s, I I forgeot to expand that footnote, so here it is : [1] The PCB has overlapping 16 and 18 pin IC positiones, for either 2112 (256*4) or 2114 (1K*4) SRAMs. In the latter case 2 of the address lines are grounded, so only 256 locations are used. Presumably HP fitted whichever chips where cheaper/more avaialble at the time (I've seen boards with 2112s, I've seen them with 2114s. I've never seen one with one RAM of each type, but there's no logical reason why this won't work). Incidentally, this PCB is unusual (for HP) in that the silkscreen has, next to each IC positionm the last 4 digits of the HP part number _and_ the standard number (like 'LS164'). [...] > The monitor on the bench, with the computer's motherboard on top of it. > Monitor cable plugged into the back of the motherboard. Video boards (and > brightness control cabled up in the normal way. I also didn't mention that I had problems with the brightness control. It's quite simple, just a 500 Ohm (IIRC) pot with a thumbwheel glued on the spindle, which can be turned through a slot in the bottom of the case. The pot is mounted on a little metal bracket screwed to the metalwork around the vidro PCBs. The 3 connections of the pot are wired to a socket which fits onto a header plug on the graphics PCB -- why it connects there is , I assume, to make it easy to get to the plug, since all the grpahics PCB does with those 3 signals is route them to pins on a connector ot the text PCB under it, where they go into the DAC circuitry. Anyway, when I got the machine, turning that thumbwheel did nothing. It turned out the potentiomenter's spindle was very stiff to turn, and the glue holding the wheel in place had failed. So turning the wheel simply caused it to slip on the spindle. There was also minor corrosion damage to casing screws in that area. So I pulled the wheel off and remove the pot from its bracket. It's a physically small thing, a cylinder about 1/2" in diameter and 1/2" long, with tags on the face opposite to the spindle. The 'top' -- the face where the spindle came out, was held down by bent metal tabs, covered with some kinder of selant. Most of that was scraped off, the remainder removed by heating it with a soldering iron, and the tabs bent up. After removing the top, the 'wiper' was seen to consist of a carbon bock backed with a spring wire fitted into a plastic moulding on the end of the spinde. These parts were removed and the spindle slid out from the top. And yes, there was minor surace corrosion here. Cleaned up all the parts and put it back together. The pot tested correctly electrically, and turned a lot more freely. I was not happy about glue the thunbwheel back on, though. I don't trust glue. The thumbwheel consists of a disk with a tube moulded onto it, the potentiometer spindle going into this tube. The outside of the tube was slightly tapepred, so the first thing I did was machine it straight. I then made a brass collar to fit over this part of the wheel, with a radial hole tapped for a grub screw. A clearance hole for said screw was drilled i nthe tube and finally a flat milled on the spindle. That's not going to slip!. IMHO that's how it should have been made in the first place. WHy HP cut a little corner here in otherwise well-designed and well-made machine I will never know. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 5 14:32:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:32:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Got Nova 1220, but no key :( In-Reply-To: from "Stephane Tsacas" at Oct 5, 8 02:21:04 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > I have this Data General Nova 1220 sitting here which seems in good shape. > > But I don't have the front panel key, which is in the "lock" position. > > The PDP11 keys I have do not work :( > > Any hint ? I assume that this is a tubular lock like a PDP11 lock. Yo ucan normally dismantle the front panel of such a minicomputer even when 'locked' and remove the lock itself. You then have several options : 1) Buy a new lock (and keys) of the same design and fit that. These locks were almost certainly standard parts at the time. 2) Take it to a (good) locksmith with a 'tubular lock pick'. He can then pick the lock, and from the postiion of the sliders on said tubular lock pick cna then cut a replacement key. 3) DIsmantle the lock. If it's like most of these tubular locks, there's a pin in one side that you have to drill out. I seem to remember you then hold it vertically, front face upwards, and slide the outer shell off. Keep the pins in the right sequence. You can now a) From the lengths of said pinds, cut a new key to fit that lock b) Fit a new set of pins to make a given tubular key fit it (for example your XX2247 PDP11 key) c) Assemble it with no pins (or springs) so that any tubular key will work it. -tony From ics65 at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 5 14:53:23 2008 From: ics65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:53:23 -0400 Subject: Got Nova 1220, but no key :( References: Message-ID: <008301c92724$0745f160$25dcda45@efficienfhlqu9> I had several of these keys that I sold with Novas to Scott Mcintyre in Mich. several years ago. You might try him at computers at scottMcintyre.com 1-800-489-7177 or 248-299-5100 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Got Nova 1220, but no key :( > > > > Hi, > > I have this Data General Nova 1220 sitting here which seems in good shape. > > > > But I don't have the front panel key, which is in the "lock" position. > > > > The PDP11 keys I have do not work :( > > > > Any hint ? > > I assume that this is a tubular lock like a PDP11 lock. > > Yo ucan normally dismantle the front panel of such a minicomputer even > when 'locked' and remove the lock itself. You then have several options : > > 1) Buy a new lock (and keys) of the same design and fit that. These locks > were almost certainly standard parts at the time. > > 2) Take it to a (good) locksmith with a 'tubular lock pick'. He can then > pick the lock, and from the postiion of the sliders on said tubular lock > pick cna then cut a replacement key. > > 3) DIsmantle the lock. If it's like most of these tubular locks, there's a > pin in one side that you have to drill out. I seem to remember you then > hold it vertically, front face upwards, and slide the outer shell off. > Keep the pins in the right sequence. You can now > > a) From the lengths of said pinds, cut a new key to fit that lock > > b) Fit a new set of pins to make a given tubular key fit it (for example > your XX2247 PDP11 key) > > c) Assemble it with no pins (or springs) so that any tubular key will > work it. > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 5 14:50:55 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:50:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: (fwd) VT220 keyboard (cont'd) In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Oct 5, 8 01:40:41 pm Message-ID: > > >Thanks for the replies, all, especially Tony Duell who had it > >spot-on: Alas I've seen it dar too many times... > > > >>This normally means there's a short in the keyboard matrix, as if one = > key=20 > >>is stuck down. > >> > >>What I would do is open up the keyboard casing (there are 2 screws = > under=20 > >>the plastic posts/feet) and remove the internals.=20 > >(snip) > >>Connect the PCB to the terminal with the normal cable and power up. = > Most=20 > >>likely the LEDs will go through the normal sequence and there'll be no=20 > >>error message, which shows the fault is in the keyboard itself. > > > >The LED's do indeed cycle when the isolated PCB is hooked up, and > >eventually "VT220 OK" appears on the screen. So now I either have So the electronics is almsot certainly working. > >to find the shorted key (it's pretty dirty in there so blowing > >with compressed air might help) or just get another keyboard. I If uou are really keen, you could try to find the shorted key. I have a pinout of the keyboard tails, it's a 17*8 matrix : J1 : N/C Row 5 Row 7 N/C LockLED/ Col 2 Col 3 N/C Col 4 Col 1 Col 5 N/C J2 N/C Col 6 COl 7 Col 8 Col 0 Col 9 HoldLED/ Row 4 Col 10 Col 11 Con 12 LED+ J3 WaitLED/ Col 13 Row 0 Col 14 Col 15 Col 16 Row 1 Row 2 Col 17 Row 3 Row 6 ComposeLED/ If you're not sure what end the pins are numbered from, the 'Row' lines go, in order to port 0 of the 8051 microcontroller, the column lines come from the outputs of the '145 chips E2 (cols 0-9( and E3 (10-17) What you need to do is check each Row connection to each Column connection with an ohhmeter. See if you van find one that's low resistance. When you do, let me know the row and column and I can tell you which key that is. You might then be lucky in that removing the key and lifting the leaf spring away from the membrant might cure it. But alas it rarely does. > >won't try and wash it after reading the warnings here. > > > >BTW I see one on ebag right now (190254818657) but it's a > >"VT220-Style" unit, made by another manufacturer. Think it'd work > >with a real VT220? I doubt it. Many manufactuered copied the keyboard layout and design but not the interface. I thought LK201s were not that hard to find. -tony From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 5 15:01:17 2008 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:01:17 +0200 Subject: Problems with 2114s In-Reply-To: <200810051701.m95H0rO1000561@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810051701.m95H0rO1000561@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48E91D0D.6000005@xs4all.nl> Tony Duell wrote: > the card. As soon as I spotted this was implemented with 2114s [1]s, I > knew what to do. I replaced them, and put the card back in, not > I heard before that 2114 are considered unreliable. Is there an overview of brands that are not reliable? I have a computer in repair, a DAI, 8080 CPU with special stack RAM implemented with 2114s, so that could be the problem. But it would be nice to be more sure before soldering them out. An image of the suspect RAM is here: http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/2114s.jpg. Greetings, Fred Jan From tonym at compusource.net Sun Oct 5 15:02:51 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:02:51 -0400 Subject: Altos 580 troubleshooting References: Message-ID: <001801c92725$595844c0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Anyone got an Altos Series 5 / 580 that I can send my mainboard to for troubleshooting? No idea what is wrong, and I don;t have the electronics experience or equipment. It does absolutely nothing, even when placed in my Series 5 chassis, which works with it's mainboard. Tony S. Florida From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 5 15:51:37 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:51:37 +0200 Subject: Problems with 2114s In-Reply-To: <200810051701.m95H0rO1000561@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48E91D0D.6000005@xs4all.nl> References: <200810051701.m95H0rO1000561@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48E91D0D.6000005@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: From: "F.J. Kraan" Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 10:01 PM To: Subject: Problems with 2114s > Tony Duell wrote: >> the card. As soon as I spotted this was implemented with 2114s [1]s, I >> knew what to do. I replaced them, and put the card back in, not >> > I heard before that 2114 are considered unreliable. Is there an overview > of brands that are not reliable? I have a computer in repair, a DAI, > 8080 CPU with special stack RAM implemented with 2114s, so that could be > the problem. But it would be nice to be more sure before soldering them > out. > An image of the suspect RAM is here: > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/2114s.jpg. > > Greetings, > Fred Jan Hi Fred Jan, are you sure those are 2114's? Not that I am 100% sure, but to me those are 2111 RAMs, 400 ns types. - Henk, PA8PDP From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 5 16:05:48 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:05:48 +0200 Subject: Problems with 2114s In-Reply-To: References: <200810051701.m95H0rO1000561@dewey.classiccmp.org><48E91D0D.6000005@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <8D5CB021AB6446A08A043BB12871819D@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Henk Gooijen Verzonden: zondag 5 oktober 2008 22:52 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Problems with 2114s From: "F.J. Kraan" Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 10:01 PM To: Subject: Problems with 2114s > Tony Duell wrote: >> the card. As soon as I spotted this was implemented with 2114s [1]s, >> I knew what to do. I replaced them, and put the card back in, not >> > I heard before that 2114 are considered unreliable. Is there an > overview of brands that are not reliable? I have a computer in repair, > a DAI, 8080 CPU with special stack RAM implemented with 2114s, so that > could be the problem. But it would be nice to be more sure before > soldering them out. > An image of the suspect RAM is here: > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/2114s.jpg. > > Greetings, > Fred Jan Hi Fred Jan, are you sure those are 2114's? Not that I am 100% sure, but to me those are 2111 RAMs, 400 ns types. - Henk, PA8PDP Fred Jan, If you are sure those aren't 2111's I do have some 2114's on 'stock' . I'll have to look for 2111's I'm not sure I've those. But if you need them I'll search for them. -Rik From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 20:54:56 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:54:56 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory Message-ID: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> Hi. I'm looking for reference materials regarding very early implementations of virtual memory and/or memory protection. I'm really most interested in exploring the evolution of these features in operating systems. Anyone have any pointers for me as to where to look for this information? Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 5 21:26:53 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:26:53 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200810052226.53412.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 05 October 2008 21:54, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Hi. > > I'm looking for reference materials regarding very early implementations > of virtual memory and/or memory protection. I'm really most interested > in exploring the evolution of these features in operating systems. > > Anyone have any pointers for me as to where to look for this information? Not me, but perhaps when you do get your list together you can post it, that sounds like a rather interesting subject... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 21:30:13 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:30:13 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: <200810052226.53412.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> <200810052226.53412.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48E97835.1070203@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 05 October 2008 21:54, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I'm looking for reference materials regarding very early implementations >> of virtual memory and/or memory protection. I'm really most interested >> in exploring the evolution of these features in operating systems. >> >> Anyone have any pointers for me as to where to look for this information? > > Not me, but perhaps when you do get your list together you can post it, that > sounds like a rather interesting subject... I definitely will! Peace... Sridhar From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Oct 5 21:32:43 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:32:43 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of Message-ID: I have some more stuff I need to clear out. there' s the PDP-11 no one has asked for yet, And I just found an old Xyplex switch *8 slot* I believe, loaded. was working last I checked it (many years ago), has BGP also and some others: cisco 1721 (2 of these) cisco 2501 cisco 2505 I'm moving in a few weeks and they need to be gone by then. In in scarbough (part of Toronto, Canada) if I get no response, it's all going to the scrap dealer. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ From tonym at compusource.net Sun Oct 5 21:31:09 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:31:09 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f101c9275b$980484f0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 9:54 PM Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory > > Hi. > > I'm looking for reference materials regarding very early implementations > of virtual memory and/or memory protection. I'm really most interested in > exploring the evolution of these features in operating systems. > > Anyone have any pointers for me as to where to look for this information? > Micro, mini, or mainframe? I know I have some docs I set aside in acrobat format, from one of the IBM research journals, where they discussed the addition of virtual storage to the IBM 360, I think the 360-67 might've been the first? At least from IBM - I think there was another system, the "blaauw box" added to another 360 just before it, if my memory is correct. Found the IBM link: http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/255/ibmrd2505D.pdf covers how the model 67 introduced "virtual storage." Tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 5 21:35:24 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:35:24 -0600 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: <200810052226.53412.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> <200810052226.53412.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48E9796C.3060008@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Not me, but perhaps when you do get your list together you can post it, that > sounds like a rather interesting subject... > Other than the very early pre-computer computers, would not the drum be considered virtual memory? From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 21:40:25 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:40:25 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: <48E9796C.3060008@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> <200810052226.53412.rtellason@verizon.net> <48E9796C.3060008@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48E97A99.9010403@gmail.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Not me, but perhaps when you do get your list together you can post >> it, that sounds like a rather interesting subject... >> > Other than the very early pre-computer computers, would not the drum > be considered virtual memory? Well, certainly the storage system in the Manchester Atlas would be considered virtual memory. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 5 21:43:34 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:43:34 -0600 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E97B56.1030608@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > > there' s the PDP-11 no one has asked for yet, > > Umm what PDP was that again? > And I just found an old Xyplex switch *8 slot* I believe, loaded. was working last I checked it (many years ago), has BGP also > > and some others: > > cisco 1721 (2 of these) > cisco 2501 > cisco 2505 > > I'm moving in a few weeks and they need to be gone by then. > In in scarbough (part of Toronto, Canada) > > if I get no response, it's all going to the scrap dealer. > > Dan. > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > From tonym at compusource.net Sun Oct 5 21:47:30 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:47:30 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> <200810052226.53412.rtellason@verizon.net><48E9796C.3060008@jetnet.ab.ca> <48E97A99.9010403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <010801c9275d$e0ee3880$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 10:40 PM Subject: Re: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> Not me, but perhaps when you do get your list together you can post it, >>> that sounds like a rather interesting subject... >>> >> Other than the very early pre-computer computers, would not the drum >> be considered virtual memory? > > Well, certainly the storage system in the Manchester Atlas would be > considered virtual memory. > I find references pointing to the Atlas being the first to have it DESIGNED in, and the Burroughs B5000 as the first commercial computer to actually SHIP with virtual memory support, using segmentation, as opposed to paging. Tony From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Oct 5 22:00:13 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 23:00:13 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E97F3D.1070303@compsys.to> >Dan Gahlinger wrote: >I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > >there' s the PDP-11 no one has asked for yet, > > Jerome Fine replies: I should not ask, but any details? Qbus, Unibus, Memory, drives, terminals? >I'm moving in a few weeks and they need to be gone by then. >In in scarbough (part of Toronto, Canada) > > Yonge and Steeles. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From tonym at compusource.net Sun Oct 5 22:04:24 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:04:24 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> <200810052226.53412.rtellason@verizon.net><48E9796C.3060008@jetnet.ab.ca> <48E97A99.9010403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011701c92760$3ccb9b50$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 10:40 PM Subject: Re: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> Not me, but perhaps when you do get your list together you can post it, >>> that sounds like a rather interesting subject... >>> >> Other than the very early pre-computer computers, would not the drum >> be considered virtual memory? > > Well, certainly the storage system in the Manchester Atlas would be > considered virtual memory. > Oh - found a paper written in 1996 by Peter Denning of George Mason University, on the history of virtual memory. http://cs.gmu.edu/cne/pjd/PUBS/bvm.pdf Here's another on the Burroughs B5000, released in 1961. The Atlas was not completed until 1962. http://www.smecc.org/The%20Architecture%20%20of%20the%20Burroughs%20B-5000.htm Tony From legalize at xmission.com Sun Oct 5 22:39:50 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:39:50 -0600 Subject: ADDS Envoy schematics/service manual? Message-ID: Does anyone have a set of schematics/service manual for an ADDS Envoy terminal? I couldn't find anything on bitsavers or manx. Thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Oct 5 22:49:24 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:49:24 -0700 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E98AC4.8010206@crash.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > there' s the PDP-11 no one has asked for yet, I have Dan's earlier message handy, so... Below is the note he sent out on June 14th. Sounds like it's in a BA123, so I'd guess it's either an 11/53 or 11/73. Jerome, you were inquiring further about it on the list at the time... See also: www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2008-June/094900.html Don't contact me, I have nothing to do with it. --S. ======== I have a PDP-11 system, fairly recent, about the size of a mini-fridge, on wheels. last I checked it was still fully operational, but I can't speak to that now, it's spent the last 2 years in storage. I just don't have space for it, and it's a bit larger than I can find use for. its about 4 feet long, 2 feet wide and perhaps 3 feet high - thats by eye ball. it has a TK70 tape drive that's in excellent shape. the plastic cover over the front is missing which is why I'm not sure of the model. I'd rather sell or trade it, if there's interest. i'm looking for a vax station 3100 model 76 or a 4000 model 90 or some volker craig terminals. I'd prefer to avoid junking it. Keep in mind I'm not interested in shipping it, it weighs a bloody ton! located in Scarborough, Ontario (Canada), so anyone in the GTA area would be an easier pick up. Dan. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 5 22:58:37 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:58:37 -0700 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >I have some more stuff I need to clear out. >cisco 1721 (2 of these) >cisco 2501 >cisco 2505 Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some interest on the HECnet list. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 5 23:04:06 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 00:04:06 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810060004.06592.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 05 October 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > > > >cisco 1721 (2 of these) > >cisco 2501 > >cisco 2505 > > Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some > interest on the HECnet list. I've still got two Cisco 7000s that are perfectly capable of routing DECnet, with interface boards for serial, ethernet, ATM and FDDI, if anyone has any interest... They're in Lafayette, IN, and I'll ship if you cover costs + some extra for my time and effort. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 5 23:07:34 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:07:34 -0400 Subject: Anyone own a MAD Computer system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E98F06.4050704@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Just wanted to see if anyone on the list actually owns a MAD computer system. It has very similar specs and physical design to the Mindset and being an avid Mindset collector I wanted to get some first hand comparisons of the system from someone who actually owns one. Curt From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 5 23:13:39 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:13:39 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E99073.7090406@atarimuseum.com> If the CISCO route doesn't work out I've got a few copies of Netware for DEC Access for Novell 3.12 and 4.1 servers. So if you have a spare box that you want to build out to be a Novell server you can use this add-on to allow it to talk to DECnet (and if I recall it also supported LAT too...) Just need a pair of NIC's to install into the box.... Its been a looooooong time since I've done any active Netware work, but I still have just about every Novell product going back to 2.15 SFT. I would still like to find an original Novell 68000 server with a copy of S-NET. Curt Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > >> cisco 1721 (2 of these) >> cisco 2501 >> cisco 2505 > > Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some > interest on the HECnet list. > > Zane > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1709 - Release Date: 10/5/2008 9:20 AM > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 5 23:19:06 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:19:06 -0700 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48E92F4A.26754.7B8A08F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Oct 2008 at 21:54, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm looking for reference materials regarding very early implementations > of virtual memory and/or memory protection. I'm really most interested > in exploring the evolution of these features in operating systems. > > Anyone have any pointers for me as to where to look for this information? There are some issues of periodicals I never thow out. Get your hands on a copy of Vol. 26, No. 1 (January, 1983) of the Communcations of the ACM. This was a special 25th anniversary issue of the CACM and featured reprints of seminal papers that may be relevant. The first that comes to mind is Dennis and Van Horn's "Programming Semantics of Multiprogrammed Computations" (1966). Another is Peter Deming's "The Working Set Model for Program Behavior" (1967). Hardware memory protection may well go back to the 1950s. ISTR Project MAC had some interesting work on virtual memory also. You may want to look through 1960's FJCC and FIPS proceedings also. Cheers, Chuck From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Oct 5 23:22:31 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:22:31 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E99287.8020307@hawkmountain.net> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > > there' s the PDP-11 no one has asked for yet, > I'm not local or I'd check out the PDP11. If nobody takes the units, would you part with the cards to at least save those from the scrapper. That and the TK70 drive. If so, if you can inventory the cards... they should have #s visible on the ends of the cards... like M####. If you don't get a taker on the box, inventory the cards and send me a list. > And I just found an old Xyplex switch *8 slot* I believe, loaded. was working last I checked it (many years ago), has BGP also > > and some others: > > cisco 1721 (2 of these) > Does these have any WIC cards in them ? Do you know if they have the VPN option module ? Depending on the config I might be interested in them. -- Curt > cisco 2501 > cisco 2505 > > I'm moving in a few weeks and they need to be gone by then. > In in scarbough (part of Toronto, Canada) > > if I get no response, it's all going to the scrap dealer. > > Dan. > _________________________________________________________________ > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 5 23:23:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:23:01 -0700 Subject: Anyone own a MAD Computer system? In-Reply-To: <48E98F06.4050704@atarimuseum.com> References: , <48E98F06.4050704@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <48E93035.26098.7BC36C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2008 at 0:07, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Just wanted to see if anyone on the list actually owns a MAD computer > system. It has very similar specs and physical design to the Mindset > and being an avid Mindset collector I wanted to get some first hand > comparisons of the system from someone who actually owns one. As in "MAD Intelligent Systems"? Bruce Irvine once tried to recruit me for that outfit. I found it vaguely satisfying that it wasn't long after that, that I was picking up parts from the bankruptcy at Halted. I still have an XT mobo mounted in one of their boxes. Was their last product a 386 box? Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 5 23:35:09 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:35:09 -0700 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E9957D.8030609@sbcglobal.net> Richard wrote: > Hrm... I misremembered; I *don't* have a service manual for a 411[34]; > I was thinking of the service manual for the 4014 and the 4051. > Yes, those manuals appear to be much more common. The 4114 manual has been eluding me for quite some time now. Just having the beep error codes would point me in the right direction. At least the processor is running somewhat. Bob From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 5 23:36:52 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:36:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone own a MAD Computer system? In-Reply-To: <48E93035.26098.7BC36C1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <48E98F06.4050704@atarimuseum.com> <48E93035.26098.7BC36C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48E995E4.5050200@atarimuseum.com> Hi Chuck, Hmmm.... Bruce Irvine, same one who came out of CDC, worked at Atari's HCD for a short stint, then was actually at Mindset briefly ??? The box I'm referring to is their 80186 design in the black case with the CPU in the lower pizza-box and then expansion module mounted ontop of it. Basically a near identical design to the Mindset insofar as stacking modules and such. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Oct 2008 at 0:07, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> Just wanted to see if anyone on the list actually owns a MAD computer >> system. It has very similar specs and physical design to the Mindset >> and being an avid Mindset collector I wanted to get some first hand >> comparisons of the system from someone who actually owns one. >> > > As in "MAD Intelligent Systems"? Bruce Irvine once tried to recruit > me for that outfit. I found it vaguely satisfying that it wasn't > long after that, that I was picking up parts from the bankruptcy at > Halted. I still have an XT mobo mounted in one of their boxes. Was > their last product a 386 box? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1709 - Release Date: 10/5/2008 9:20 AM > > From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sun Oct 5 23:49:48 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 06:49:48 +0200 Subject: time to part with my PDP-11 system Message-ID: <80CD53F79DC64BB4B1ED373B785BFACB@mars> Hi Dan, I am interested, but you need to think about shipping it, on my cost no question. On the other hand, I will try to organise a VAX-Station, I think, I can get a 4000 or something like this, maybe more. With best regards Gerhard PS: Do you have pictures? From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 23:49:00 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:49:00 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E998BC.5010004@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > >> cisco 1721 (2 of these) >> cisco 2501 >> cisco 2505 > > Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some interest > on the HECnet list. They are. Well, maybe not the 1700s, but the 2500s definitely can. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 23:49:42 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:49:42 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <200810060004.06592.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200810060004.06592.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48E998E6.9010607@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 05 October 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >>> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. >>> >>> cisco 1721 (2 of these) >>> cisco 2501 >>> cisco 2505 >> Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some >> interest on the HECnet list. > > I've still got two Cisco 7000s that are perfectly capable of routing > DECnet, with interface boards for serial, ethernet, ATM and FDDI, if > anyone has any interest... > > They're in Lafayette, IN, and I'll ship if you cover costs + some extra > for my time and effort. But those are a lot heavier and use a bit more power than a 2500. A 2500 is a 1U box. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 6 00:00:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:00:23 -0700 Subject: Anyone own a MAD Computer system? In-Reply-To: <48E995E4.5050200@atarimuseum.com> References: , <48E93035.26098.7BC36C1@cclist.sydex.com>, <48E995E4.5050200@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <48E938F7.11918.7DE699B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2008 at 0:36, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hmmm.... Bruce Irvine, same one who came out of CDC, worked at > Atari's HCD for a short stint, then was actually at Mindset briefly ??? That's the guy. Another of the notorious SVLOPS CDC mafia. > The box I'm referring to is their 80186 design in the black case with > the CPU in the lower pizza-box and then expansion module mounted ontop > of it. Basically a near identical design to the Mindset insofar as > stacking modules and such. The box I have is taller, but less wide than an XT in beige. Really cramped inside, but can hold 2 5.25" hh floppies and a FH 5.25" hard drive. Beige with a 4-position keyswitch. First position is off, second is on/run, third is on, keyboard locked, fourth is momentary contact reset. Three LED indicators above that--a green one for power on, a yellow for keyboard locked and a red for HD access. Nothing mechanically standard as far as board mounting inside; I had to drill some holes to accept standoffs to mount an XT mobo. MAD got out of the box-making business and reorganized as an "AI technology" outfit with some name talent (I assume recruited with stock), then went down the chute not long after that. Cheers, Chuck From ubergeek316 at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 00:05:49 2008 From: ubergeek316 at gmail.com (Jason Savitt) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:05:49 -0700 Subject: Buying Vintage Technology Message-ID: <87c3e94b0810052205v2a965e2ax1c385c0f0fde45d9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I have a blog called "Vintage Technology Collector" (http://vintagetech.org) and working on an article called "buying/selling vintage technology". I have bought several vintage personal computers and device over the years, and one of the best and most reliable sources of this equipment is eBay. I am wanting to find out if anyone has any better places for buying/selling vintage electronics. Thanks, Jason From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 6 00:29:02 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 23:29:02 -0600 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:35:09 -0700. <48E9957D.8030609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <48E9957D.8030609 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Richard wrote: > > Hrm... I misremembered; I *don't* have a service manual for a 411[34]; > > I was thinking of the service manual for the 4014 and the 4051. > > Yes, those manuals appear to be much more common. The 4114 manual has > been eluding me for quite some time now. When "Manuals Plus" went out of business, I went in and scarfed up all the Tektronix manuals that I could afford. I've got a 4113 that's en route and should contain more manuals; in the pictures I was shown there wasn't a service manual included, but sometimes they don't always take pictures of everything. > Just having the beep error codes would point me in the right direction. > At least the processor is running somewhat. My 4114 is in a known state of non-working, but I haven't diagnosed it yet. The 4113 is supposed to be in working order. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Oct 1 02:22:00 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 09:22:00 +0200 Subject: Looking for Norsk Data ND-100 info. In-Reply-To: <48E1E63C.4060000@brothom.nl> References: <48E1B476.2030801@acc.umu.se> <48E1E63C.4060000@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <48E32518.3030606@acc.umu.se> Bert Thomas wrote: > I have ND110 functional description. I have more ND docs, but not at > hand. > That is great news! That manual would probably help us a lot. Do you want to sell it, lend it to me, scan it or just tease me with it? :-) There is another ND-100 emulator out there but it emulates the SINTRAN III os, our goal is to emulate the hardware good enough to be able to run SINTRAN III. We have some basic interrupt code in place right now implemented as multithreading. Regards, G?ran From hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net Wed Oct 1 04:00:19 2008 From: hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net (hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:00:19 -0600 Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" Message-ID: <000e01c923a4$21d1dc20$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Hello group: I have a person whom was kind enough to post the PDF excerps from scanning "Practical Microprocessors" which is the lab manual for the HP 5036 microprocessor trainer.. I scanned the schematics, rom listing and a few other pages. You can find it on Dave's site here http://www.neurotica.com/misc/practical_microprocessors.pdf be warned that in order to make it worth while to read its 125 megs I suggest that you print it out the 40 so pages. I printed it to make sure that its readable. Spent a day to scan it and build the pdf so I hope those with the trainer and have no manual will find it usefull. Jim From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 12:51:09 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Tecmar JrCaptain power supply specs In-Reply-To: <48E3A263.70706@netscape.net> Message-ID: <437129.6191.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> if all else fails you may want to open it up and look at the regulator it uses Jimbo. This might give an indication of the input voltage at least. Mikey Brutman should be able to help you with that though. Are you still looking for *possibly* a small stash of junior stuff? What about the monitor? I don't know exactly when I'll be up your way, but I could drop it off conceivably. --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Jim Scheef wrote: > From: Jim Scheef > Subject: Need Tecmar JrCaptain power supply specs > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 12:16 PM > Hello everyone, > > My JrCaptain and its power supply (the wall wart) have > become separated. > I'm pretty sure I still have it, it's just that I > don't know which one > it is. Naturally none have the Tecmar name. I'm sure > someone here has > one of these, so would you please look at the wall wart or > power brick > and tell me what it says? > > Thanks, > Jim From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 1 17:52:02 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: <200810011755.21229.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200810011755.21229.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200810012256.SAA06812@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I notice that edge connectors are a lot less common than they used to > be. I wonder if there are reliability issues by comparison with > other typies? What's the difference between an "edge connector" and, say, the connector used for a PCI card or a modern peecee memory stick? (Tony, I realize you may not be familiar with either one, but just wander into a mass-market computer store and I'm sure you can find plenty of each, probably with some examples in see-through packages.) The only difference I can see is how the "socket" side of the connection is usually mounted (so the socket and board edge mate perpendicular to the baord the socket is connected to, rather than parallel). Oh, and the size of the contact fingers, I suppose, but _that_ surely doesn't count! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dbstaats at gci.net Wed Oct 1 22:51:47 2008 From: dbstaats at gci.net (Doug an Brenda Staats) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:51:47 -0800 Subject: atc-510 simulator Message-ID: <4C4A608A5655418281AC6B463B7376DD@FamilyPC> Joe: I'm with the Alaska Chapter of the 99s and we have two 510 ATC's, one works and one does not. Do you have any for sell with the manuals? Also do you know who works on them? Thanks, Brenda From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Oct 2 02:55:26 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:55:26 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache: The adventure continues Message-ID: <48E47E6E.6070108@msu.edu> Thanks to TonyM, I have a replacement power supply that works and I now have the Otrona mostly running. (I do intend to repair the original power supply -- I found what looks to be a bad transistor and I've ordered a replacement (can't find it at the local shop.)). The Otrona almost works properly, it just won't boot from floppy. I need a bit of help debugging the floppy controller. Thus far I've verified that the following are good: - The drives themselves and the disks I'm trying to boot from (hooked the drives up to my PC and used ImageDisk to dump the disk contents successfully) - The drive cable - The NEC 765 controller (was originally bad! replaced with a known-good 765 from an old PC floppy controller and this improved things somewhat.) Symptoms are: Drive spins up, seeks to track 0 but won't boot; running the ROM diagnostics (thanks to Bob for a scan of the service manual!) helps narrow down things a bit: - The "Format" diagnostic runs, which means the heads load, the drive seeks, and enough is working so that the Otrona thinks it's formatting. I've tried reading the resultant diskette using ImageDisk and it chokes on it, so I'm not sure it's formatting correctly. - Reading or Writing a sector on a known good, CP/M formatted floppy fails. The error code returned (4004) indicates a missing Sector ID. There aren't a lot of chips involved in the floppy controller (about 12 or 13) so I'm hoping this shouldn't be too hard to track down. Any suggestions on where to start? (Schematic at http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf on page 6). Would it make sense to start investigating the chips leading back from the /RD DATA pin? Thanks as always, Josh From axelsson at acc.umu.se Thu Oct 2 05:51:04 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:51:04 +0200 Subject: Looking for Norsk Data ND-100 info. In-Reply-To: <48E39BAD.9030509@update.uu.se> References: <48E1B476.2030801@acc.umu.se> <48E39BAD.9030509@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <48E4A798.5030208@acc.umu.se> Pontus wrote: > G?ran Axelsson wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> I'm looking for ND-100 information. A couple of my friends have >> started to work on a ND-100 emulator and it is progressing fast... >> fast to a point where we are lacking information about the inner >> workings of the ND-100 CPU. >> >> Specifically we are looking for information on the real time clock >> interrupt and micro code programming but other information (manuals, >> schematics or programs) is also interesting. >> >> I currently have the following manuals that I'm transforming into >> pdf:s as time permits. >> >> * ND-06.007 BIG MULTIPORT MEMORY SYSTEM >> * ND-06.014 ND-100 REFERENCE MANUAL >> * ND-06.016 ND-100 INPUT/OUTPUT SYSTEM >> * ND-30.003.06A : SINTRAN III System Supervisor >> * ND-30.025.02 : COSMOS Operator Guide >> * ND-30.071.1 EN : ND-5000 Series User Guide >> * ND-40.004.06 : Norsk Data Documentation Catalogue >> * ND-40.012.1 EN : Information Pamphlet for Norsk Data Customers >> * ND-60.014.01 : Page III-1-1 to A-9 (some pages missing) >> * ND-60.046 TRACE ROUTINE >> * ND-60.047.03A : NORD PL User's Guide >> * ND-60.050.06 : SINTRAN III Users Guide >> * ND-60.066.04 : ND Relocating Loader >> * ND-60.074.01 : NORD-10 FORTRAN SYSTEM Reference Manual >> * ND-60.088.03 : ND Screen Handling System >> * ND-60.096.01 : Page 2-16 to D-3 >> * ND-60.111.03 : ND TPS User's Guide >> * ND-60.132.03 : SINTRAN III Timesharing/Batch Guide >> * ND-60.151.02A : SINTRAN III Utilities Manual >> * ND-60.158.3 EN : SYMBOLIC DEBUGGER User Guide (2 ex) >> * ND-60.163.4 EN : COSMOS User Guide >> * ND-60.196.01 : BRF-LINKER User Manual >> * ND-60.230.01 : SINTRAN III J-version Release Informaton >> * ND-60.236.1 EN : ND-100/500 SORT-MERGE User Guide >> * ND-60.264.1 EN : SINTRAN III User Guide >> * ND-63.001.02 : Introduction to NOTIS-WP >> * ND-63.026.02 : NOTIS-CALC Handbok (in Swedish) >> * ND-63.042.1 EN : NOTIS-WP M Release Information for new users >> * ND Ring binder with cable diagrams >> * Am201B/Am2901C Four-Bit Bipolar Microprocessor Slice, AMD. Page >> 5-1 to 5-18 >> * PASCAL : Instructions in Swedish for running Pascal on ND-100 >> >> >> If you have anything outside of this list please let me know. I will >> borrow for scanning, buy or trade anything of interest. >> >> The hardware we got access to is a ND-100 satellite, two ND-100 racks >> with disks and 8 inch floppys in parts and a nonfunctional NORD-10 in >> a rack. When time permits we will try to get it running. >> >> /G?ran >> > > Hello. > > Great to see som ND-action :) > > Personally I don't have any documentation for the ND machines. But we > have some docs and some floppys at the Update computer club in Uppsala, > I could dive into the storage room and see what it is. Burbas, a friend > of mine (bcc:ed on this mail) has some ND-500 docs. > > I do have a ND-100/CX Compact in somewhat working condition. Burbas has > a satellite (working) and a ND-500 (semi-working) with the ND-100 frontend. > > Another friend, Bjarni (also bcc:ed) has begun work on a 10/100 emulator > and could maybe provide some input to your project. > > I guess you know about Tore: http://folk.uio.no/toresbe/nd/ > and Jonny: http://www.sintran.com/sintran/sintran.html (<-- this site > is actually run on a ND-5850) > > Last but not least, It would be great if you could share your > documentation as you get it digitized. And if you have any kind of > ND-media (such as SINTRAN :) that would be lovely to, but we could > probably talk more about that off-list. > > Kind regards, > Pontus. > Hi Pontus! First and not least, I will share any information I have. Can you pass this reply on to Bjarni too? I don't have his address. We have started on a wiki at http://www.gnyrf.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page where we collect information. We have a documentation list, a list of test software we extracted from a test floppy and other bits of information. We also have the current source release of the emulator software. We have plans to move the wiki to a dedicated domain and only deal with Norsk Data computers... probably within a couple of weeks so this announcement is a bit premature. :-) We also have a mailing list for discussions about the emulator and general ND questions. https://www.gnyrf.net/cgi-bin/lsg2.cgi Both the mailing list and the wiki has to be approved by Roger... probably a revenge on cctech, he has tried to subscribe twice but never got any response. I have contacted both Tore and Jonny but haven't got any response yet. If you could make a list of which documentation you have I could add it to the documentation list, if it's okay with you. If we don't have the documents online it is still a good thing to have a list of where you could find a copy. Sorry, no SINTRAN media. We have it installed on the satellite and on the two ND100 but neither has been up for a couple of years. Sometime next month I will try to start up the satellite and make a binary copy. I have a QnD program to extract files from a binary image of a floppy, it will probably work on a disk image too with some work. We have got some simple programs and 32 test programs extracted from a ND test disk, but that's about all in software way. I'm out of town this weekend and will be off the net from friday morning until monday evening.... :-O If someone have problems with joining the mailing list or registering on the wiki, let me know and I will pass it on to Roger. /G?ran From hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net Thu Oct 2 14:38:21 2008 From: hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net (hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:38:21 -0600 Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" Message-ID: <000501c924c6$6fdf00a0$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Phil: If you download the manual you will see that it is in color and was scanned at 300 dpi color. I believe that HP did this on purpose so that you could not copy it on a copy machine but rather contact them and purchase another copy. On the rom listing I had to even play with the contrast and brightness just to get it to be read. Please if you want take a crack in reducing the file. As I spent the entire day just on the 40 pages it was the best I could do to get out the document for those folks whom have the trainer without the manual when it came to the schematics those were scanned in black and white as they are black and white. Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 16:46:47 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Standing Request: Need Xerox 820 II Message-ID: I have been on a quest to obtain one of these. If you have one for sale at non-bandit rates (see classcomputermuseum's auction for an example of the latter), or know of one, please advise! Thanks. (Have a real 820 motherboard and a Ferguson BigBoard already. I need the actual machine) STeve -- From matt.valerio at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 20:43:15 2008 From: matt.valerio at gmail.com (Matt Valerio) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:43:15 -0400 Subject: Tandy 1000 SX Motherboard and Manuals Message-ID: Hey everyone, I have a Tandy 1000 SX that I'm looking to get rid of. Anybody want it? Here's the scoop. Tandy 1000 SX (circa 1984) - Motherboard, cards, and power supply (sorry, I don't have the case, long story) - Intel 8088 CPU dual-speed 7.16/4.77 MHz (switch on back), 640K RAM - VGA graphics card (high-density 15-pin DSUB connector) - 1 parallel port, 1 serial port, and a light pen port - 2 Joysticks - Keyboard (if I can find it) (large 6-pin DIN connector) - 2x 5.25" floppy drives (A: and B:) - ISA expansion card with a 20MB (I think) hard drive (C:) - MS-DOS 6.22 installed on the hard drive - Various 5.25" floppies\ Manuals - Technical Reference Manual, Boxed (25-1511) (Schematics, low-level I/O details, etc) - BASIC Reference Manual, Boxed (25-1502) - MS-DOS Reference Manual, Boxed (25-1501) - Tandy 1000 SX Quick Reference, Spiral Bound - BASIC: A Reference Guide, Spiral Bound - Tandy 1000 SX Programmer's Reference, Spiral Bound (Assembly language guide) - Turbo Pascal 3.0 and 4.0 reference manuals If you'd like it and are in the Columbus, OH area to pick it up, shoot me an email! Highest offer gets it :) -Matt From jmartins at escrapusa.com Fri Oct 3 11:43:50 2008 From: jmartins at escrapusa.com (Jose Martins) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:43:50 -0400 Subject: desirous of acquiring a Tektronix TC-2000 Message-ID: <000001c92577$39c53050$ad4f90f0$@com> We have one unit available If any interest email us Thanks 45martins at comcast.net From d.panicacci at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 3 17:44:27 2008 From: d.panicacci at sbcglobal.net (David Panicacci) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:44:27 -0700 Subject: Century Data Systems T-50 disks Message-ID: <000001c925aa$08616b40$6401a8c0@mcneil> Patrick, It was in the late 70's that I was a young technician on the test line at Century Data Systems in Anahiem CA, I remember when the Trident line first got started (T25, T50, T80) they were the latest in high technology, I was one of the first techs to work on them. These disk drives were built to last, I beleive I have some of the old "theory of operation manuals" for them. Thanks for the memories. Do you have a web page with pictures? I also worked on some of the first disk drives that Century Data made back then, I had 18 years in with them untill 1988 just befor they went bankrupt, at lest that is what we were told. Dave From ben.christie at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 04:17:50 2008 From: ben.christie at hotmail.com (ben christie) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 19:47:50 +1030 Subject: wicat Message-ID: Hi Joe, I found a really old post that you put up many years ago. I am trying to get hold of an old Wicat 150ws or similar and was wondering if you knew of of anybody who has one and would like to sell it. Any info would be much appreciated. Kind Regards, Ben Christie _________________________________________________________________ From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Oct 5 09:07:43 2008 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 09:07:43 -0500 Subject: VT220 keyboard (cont'd) Message-ID: Thanks for the replies, all, especially Tony Duell who had it spot-on: >This normally means there's a short in the keyboard matrix, as if one key >is stuck down. > >What I would do is open up the keyboard casing (there are 2 screws under >the plastic posts/feet) and remove the internals. (snip) >Connect the PCB to the terminal with the normal cable and power up. Most >likely the LEDs will go through the normal sequence and there'll be no >error message, which shows the fault is in the keyboard itself. The LED's do indeed cycle when the isolated PCB is hooked up, and eventually "VT220 OK" appears on the screen. So now I either have to find the shorted key (it's pretty dirty in there so blowing with compressed air might help) or just get another keyboard. I won't try and wash it after reading the warnings here. BTW I see one on ebag right now (190254818657) but it's a "VT220-Style" unit, made by another manufacturer. Think it'd work with a real VT220? thanks Charles From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Oct 5 13:54:40 2008 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 13:54:40 -0500 Subject: Still FS: S-100 boards Message-ID: I still have the following S-100 boards for sale if anyone's interested: Wameco QMB-9 "The Little Mother" 9-slot motherboard with five connectors. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=20qzvq0&s=4 8K static RAM (2102) board by Ithaca Audio, fully socketed and populated. Needs a couple of heat sinks for the 7805 regulators. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29lefr8&s=4 Piiceon 8K Program Saver board (2708 EPROM programmer). Complete except for the TL497CN switching regulator chip. Includes two 2708's, can hold eight. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2r7x7jt&s=4 NOTE: The above boards were never powered up or tested (lost interest in the early '80's). No guarantee they will actually work! VB-1B Video Interface card by Solid State Music. This one was actually working with a different (homebrewed) 8080A board way back in 1979. I think it's 64 characters x 16 lines, monochrome of course. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2qa6bde&s=4 Please make offer on one or all. Shipping will be from zip 65775 (US). thanks Charles From jimgeneva at dorisland.net Sun Oct 5 20:21:33 2008 From: jimgeneva at dorisland.net (jimgeneva at dorisland.net) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:21:33 -0600 Subject: Software for HP 64000 Message-ID: <001f01c92751$df3d98c0$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Hi: I have reciently gotten the HP 64223B control Board and 64224A 80186 emulation Pod for the HP 64000 Development System and am looking for the software to use this hardware in my system any help would be greatly appreciated. Jim jimgeneva at yahoo.com From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Oct 6 01:53:42 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:53:42 +0200 Subject: HP NetServer LE config problem Message-ID: <20081006065342.310770@gmx.net> (This is a resend - I never got my original message back so I suppose it got stuck in that list server hiccup a few months ago...) Hello everybody, we recently acquired a HP NetServer 4/33 LE (later upgraded to 100 MHz) for the University computer museum and are trying to get it going now. This involves some configuration changes for which one needs a configurator disk - the one we got with it is flaky (reads unreliably). We did download the Netserver LE ECU (EISA configuration utility) disk images from HP's website but when the changes are made, the program complains that the actual system board ID differs from the one in the configuration file and does not save the new configuration to the CMOS. Clearing the CMOS via DIP switch did not improve the situation. We finally got the original disk to boot once but got the same message. A BIOS update/reflash is not possible because the update utility wants Video BIOS shadowing enabled, which would - you guessed it - be done by means of the configuration utility. Am I doing something wrong here, do I have the wrong disk image or is our mainboard toast? As usual, thanks in advance... Arno Kletzander -- Arno Kletzander Student Assistant // Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Oct 6 08:58:57 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:58:57 -0500 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: A very nice reference is "Computer Structures -- readings and examples" by Bell and Newell (McGraw-Hill, 1971). There's a section in it about "Virtual-address space and memory mapping" (page 77-80). It describes a whole lot of schemes and lists early instances. For example, there is a scheme that has protection but not relocation (IBM 1800 -- per word, and SDS Sigma-2 -- per page). There are schemes with a base address and length (PDP-6, CDC 6000) or two of those (PDP-10). And there are page mapping schemes (Atlas, CDC 3500) and segment descriptor table ones (Burroughs 5500). All those are early to mid 1960s. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 09:10:37 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:10:37 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache: The adventure continues In-Reply-To: <48E47E6E.6070108@msu.edu> References: <48E47E6E.6070108@msu.edu> Message-ID: Hi Most of the parts in the read path are easy to replace but there is a ROM ( 3601 ) used in the read window that is hard to find. This is part of the DDL used to create the read window from the data. Make sure the R-Pack used to load the input signals is working OK. It should be 150 to +5. Both the LS74 and the LS174 are common failures in the TTL devices. Dwight > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:55:26 -0700 > From: derschjo at msu.edu > To: > Subject: Otrona Attache: The adventure continues > > Thanks to TonyM, I have a replacement power supply that works and I now > have the Otrona mostly running. (I do intend to repair the original > power supply -- I found what looks to be a bad transistor and I've > ordered a replacement (can't find it at the local shop.)). > > The Otrona almost works properly, it just won't boot from floppy. I > need a bit of help debugging the floppy controller. Thus far I've > verified that the following are good: > > - The drives themselves and the disks I'm trying to boot from (hooked > the drives up to my PC and used ImageDisk to dump the disk contents > successfully) > - The drive cable > - The NEC 765 controller (was originally bad! replaced with a known-good > 765 from an old PC floppy controller and this improved things somewhat.) > > Symptoms are: Drive spins up, seeks to track 0 but won't boot; running > the ROM diagnostics (thanks to Bob for a scan of the service manual!) > helps narrow down things a bit: > > - The "Format" diagnostic runs, which means the heads load, the drive > seeks, and enough is working so that the Otrona thinks it's formatting. > I've tried reading the resultant diskette using ImageDisk and it chokes > on it, so I'm not sure it's formatting correctly. > - Reading or Writing a sector on a known good, CP/M formatted floppy > fails. The error code returned (4004) indicates a missing Sector ID. > > There aren't a lot of chips involved in the floppy controller (about 12 > or 13) so I'm hoping this shouldn't be too hard to track down. Any > suggestions on where to start? (Schematic at > http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf on page 6). Would it > make sense to start investigating the chips leading back from the /RD > DATA pin? > > Thanks as always, > Josh _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 6 09:58:41 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:58:41 +0000 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <100620081458.4281.48EA27A100034890000010B922243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > I'm looking for reference materials regarding very early implementations > of virtual memory and/or memory protection. I'm really most interested > in exploring the evolution of these features in operating systems. > > Anyone have any pointers for me as to where to look for this information? In addition to the other suggestions, don't forget Multics. http://www.multicians.org has a wealth of material, including the newly released source code. BLS From jchisolm at computer.org Mon Oct 6 09:59:36 2008 From: jchisolm at computer.org (Joe Chisolm) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:59:36 -0500 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48EA27D8.4030107@computer.org> Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: > A very nice reference is "Computer Structures -- readings and examples" by Bell and Newell (McGraw-Hill, 1971). There's a section in it about "Virtual-address space and memory mapping" (page 77-80). It describes a whole lot of schemes and lists early instances. For example, there is a scheme that has protection but not relocation (IBM 1800 -- per word, and SDS Sigma-2 -- per page). There are schemes with a base address and length (PDP-6, CDC 6000) or two of those (PDP-10). And there are page mapping schemes (Atlas, CDC 3500) and segment descriptor table ones (Burroughs 5500). All those are early to mid 1960s. > > paul > Search for some material on the Scientific Data Systems (SDS) 32 bit Sigma line (the 6,7 and 9) and UTS. These had multiple register sets and page protection / mapping. You might also search for the Xerox TTL follow on versions, the XDS 500 series boxes. -- Joe Chisolm Computer Translations, Inc. Marble Falls, Tx. 830-265-8018 From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Oct 6 10:25:29 2008 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:25:29 +0100 Subject: WTB: DEC AXP 3000/800 Motherboard, I/O Board Message-ID: <48EA2DE9.1070003@wickensonline.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I don't suppose anyone on this list has a DEC AXP 3000/800 motherboard and/or I/O board kicking around? I have had one of these for a while but it has a problem with one or other boards. If I can't get a spare I can't justify keeping it and will have to ditch it. I'd rather not, obviously. Regards, Mark. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjqLekACgkQR0vMj/mgdjbObwCaAsIxiwtezq1282qjwhd4Wni8 y2YAoINpLApFj8dp5SXbcsH35hkmVG1V =tgEA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 6 10:46:20 2008 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:46:20 +0200 Subject: Problems with 2114s In-Reply-To: <200810061312.m96DCEgb020120@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810061312.m96DCEgb020120@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48EA32CC.5040201@xs4all.nl> Henk Gooijen wrote: > Hi Fred Jan, > > are you sure those are 2114's? > Not that I am 100% sure, but to me those are 2111 RAMs, 400 ns types. > > Thanks for pointing out my camera optics are better than the internals ;-). The chips are clearly 2111s, even the schematics agree with this. Making it an even weirder design; 256 bytes of stack RAM. Fred Jan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 6 11:23:33 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:23:33 -0400 Subject: Altos 580 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <001801c92725$595844c0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <001801c92725$595844c0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2008, at 4:02 PM, Tony wrote: > Anyone got an Altos Series 5 / 580 that I can send my mainboard to > for troubleshooting? > No idea what is wrong, and I don;t have the electronics experience > or equipment. > > It does absolutely nothing, even when placed in my Series 5 > chassis, which works with it's mainboard. > > > Tony > S. Florida Depending on where in S. Florida you are, you're welcome to come up to my place (I'm in Port Charlotte, just south of Sarasota, on the Gulf coast) with your dead machine, and we can order a pizza and try to make it work. I have the equipment and (adequate?) experience. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 6 12:08:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 10:08:15 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache: The adventure continues In-Reply-To: <48E47E6E.6070108@msu.edu> References: <48E47E6E.6070108@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48E9E38F.7729.45D40E@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2008 at 0:55, Josh Dersch wrote: > The Otrona almost works properly, it just won't boot from floppy. I > need a bit of help debugging the floppy controller. Thus far I've > verified that the following are good: I wonder if you've got a DMA problem. When the 765 is formatting, it doesn't care too awfully much about the formatting data that's being passed along--it'll stick anything in the address headers. But you mentioned that it does perform the formatting, which means that the 765 program-mode I/O is working. Have you looked at your Otrona-formatted floppies with a utility that just does READ ID operations to figure out what's being written? Anadisk might be a good start. Something like the TE utility for the CopyIIPC option board would be another. Just a thought... Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 6 12:45:26 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:45:26 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <48E998E6.9010607@gmail.com> References: <200810060004.06592.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48E998E6.9010607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200810061345.26555.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 06 October 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Sunday 05 October 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >>> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > >>> > >>> cisco 1721 (2 of these) > >>> cisco 2501 > >>> cisco 2505 > >> > >> Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some > >> interest on the HECnet list. > > > > I've still got two Cisco 7000s that are perfectly capable of > > routing DECnet, with interface boards for serial, ethernet, ATM and > > FDDI, if anyone has any interest... > > > > They're in Lafayette, IN, and I'll ship if you cover costs + some > > extra for my time and effort. > > But those are a lot heavier and use a bit more power than a 2500. A > 2500 is a 1U box. I don't know why you'd be the one to complain about either of those facts. :) Besides, the 2500 is much slower and can't support nearly the number of media types (or number of connections) that a 7000 can... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 6 13:36:01 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:36:01 -0400 Subject: Wanted: ISO image of DEC 40th Anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <48E6710F.3000102@crash.com> References: <48E6710F.3000102@crash.com> Message-ID: <384A7466-32A4-4840-A9CE-04D08081F6EE@neurotica.com> On Oct 3, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > I've just been sniped (again) for one of these on eBay > (#290263627918). I don't especially care about the physical > artifact, I'd just like to see what's on the thing. Anybody know > where I can grab an ISO image? I've just managed to seriously disappoint myself. I was given a copy of this by Bob Mader about nine years ago. I dug it out with the intention of making an image, and I get 98MB into the disk and it fails on read errors. I've tried it in two drives so far, no luck. If anyone does manage to make an image of this disk, please make it available. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 6 13:43:06 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lying on customs forms Message-ID: I'm a bit annoyed at the latest request that I falsely put a value of $25 on a customs form. At least he's asking before he bids. Would someone in Europe please comment on customs duties and lying on forms? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From james at jdfogg.com Mon Oct 6 13:49:59 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:49:59 -0500 Subject: lying on customs forms Message-ID: <48ea5dd7.f2.394.16336@jdfogg.com> > I'm a bit annoyed at the latest request that I falsely put > a value of $25 on a customs form. At least he's asking > before he bids. Would someone in Europe please comment on > customs duties and lying on forms? I've had $giantUScorp expect me to lie to Customs officials about my purpose to enter Canada. They wanted to avoid paying a $200 work visa. I told them they can pay it or they can get someone else to do the job. I doubt $giantUScorp was going to bail me out of a foreign jail, hire a lawyer to get me undone and pay me for all my wages during that time. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 6 12:51:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:51:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking) In-Reply-To: <200810012256.SAA06812@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Oct 1, 8 06:52:02 pm Message-ID: > > > I notice that edge connectors are a lot less common than they used to > > be. I wonder if there are reliability issues by comparison with > > other typies? > > What's the difference between an "edge connector" and, say, the > connector used for a PCI card or a modern peecee memory stick? (Tony, > I realize you may not be familiar with either one, but just wander into > a mass-market computer store and I'm sure you can find plenty of each, > probably with some examples in see-through packages.) Last time I saw a PCI card and a PC motherboard that took it, the connector was certainly what I would call an 'edge connector. A finer pitch han the ISA one, but still an edge connector I have to admit the latest memory modules that I've handled are SIMMs. The connector on those is _close_ to being an edge connector, but I wouldn't call it one. The pads on the SIMM are like the pads for an edge connecotr, but you don't push it into the socky, you put it in at an angle and that lift it into the clips. This means the contacts are a pressure type of thing, not a wiping contact as in the edge connector. > The only difference I can see is how the "socket" side of the > connection is usually mounted (so the socket and board edge mate > perpendicular to the baord the socket is connected to, rather than Actually, that's very common with older edge connectors too. Think of ISA cards, they're perpendicular to the motherboard. Or the boards in this 9836. Or S100 boards. Or... > parallel). Oh, and the size of the contact fingers, I suppose, but > _that_ surely doesn't count! Indeed it doesn't -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 6 12:56:18 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 18:56:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Otrona Attache: The adventure continues In-Reply-To: <48E47E6E.6070108@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Oct 2, 8 00:55:26 am Message-ID: > > Thanks to TonyM, I have a replacement power supply that works and I now > have the Otrona mostly running. (I do intend to repair the original > power supply -- I found what looks to be a bad transistor and I've > ordered a replacement (can't find it at the local shop.)). > > The Otrona almost works properly, it just won't boot from floppy. I > need a bit of help debugging the floppy controller. Thus far I've > verified that the following are good: > > - The drives themselves and the disks I'm trying to boot from (hooked > the drives up to my PC and used ImageDisk to dump the disk contents > successfully) > - The drive cable > - The NEC 765 controller (was originally bad! replaced with a known-good > 765 from an old PC floppy controller and this improved things somewhat.) > > Symptoms are: Drive spins up, seeks to track 0 but won't boot; running > the ROM diagnostics (thanks to Bob for a scan of the service manual!) > helps narrow down things a bit: > > - The "Format" diagnostic runs, which means the heads load, the drive > seeks, and enough is working so that the Otrona thinks it's formatting. > I've tried reading the resultant diskette using ImageDisk and it chokes > on it, so I'm not sure it's formatting correctly. > - Reading or Writing a sector on a known good, CP/M formatted floppy > fails. The error code returned (4004) indicates a missing Sector ID. > > There aren't a lot of chips involved in the floppy controller (about 12 > or 13) so I'm hoping this shouldn't be too hard to track down. Any > suggestions on where to start? (Schematic at > http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf on page 6). Would it > make sense to start investigating the chips leading back from the /RD > DATA pin? I've not looked at the schematics, but in general it's easier to troubleshoot a 'write' fault than a 'read' one (if only because less analogue circuitry tends to be involved) and the fact that the machine doesn't format correctly indicates a write fault as well. Now, the 765 is certainly doing something, in that the heads move, the machine _thinks_ it's formatting and so on. I would start by looking at thw Write Clock signal (is it present, is it the right frequency). Then look at the write data and write gate outputs from the 765, trace them through any precompensation circuit to the disk drive connector. And then I'd look at the read clock. Is it running, is it on-frequency when you try to read a disk? -tony From drb at msu.edu Mon Oct 6 14:19:20 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:19:20 -0400 Subject: lying on customs forms In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:43:06 PDT.) References: Message-ID: <200810061919.m96JJKYD001107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm a bit annoyed at the latest request that I falsely put a value of > $25 on a customs form. At least he's asking before he bids. Would > someone in Europe please comment on customs duties and lying on forms? I'm not in Europe, but: 1. It sounds like the US doesn't really try to check for or enforce factual statements on outgoing customs declarations. There may not be a specific regulation requiring truthful statements. 2. It seems to be common practice for ebay buyers in other countries to ask for items to be low-balled or marked "gift". 3. It's quite clear that foreign customs have regulations requiring truthful statements on dec forms, and typically can either refuse or seize mislabeled packages if the catch them. This would leave the sender in a difficult place as regards remedies from ebay, paypal, the parcel service, etc. 4. Some carriers (*cough*UPS*cough*) will backcharge the sender for customs duties of the recipient fails to pay them. 5. Some (all?) European countries have hefty import duties which make it desirable for buyers to ask for this kind of treatment. De From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 6 14:20:03 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:20:03 +0100 Subject: lying on customs forms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7FBBEF1BA9E34C14AF7D31D8A2EEE411@FLEXPC> David Griffith wrote: > someone in Europe please comment on customs duties and lying on forms? Both exist here. Lying on forms is generally a poor idea; when you are the one doing the lying "poor" is something of an understatement! Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 6 14:27:47 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:27:47 +0200 Subject: lying on customs forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <282437084B8447CD88823C9ABA0A239A@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens David Griffith Verzonden: maandag 6 oktober 2008 20:43 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: lying on customs forms I'm a bit annoyed at the latest request that I falsely put a value of $25 on a customs form. At least he's asking before he bids. Would someone in Europe please comment on customs duties and lying on forms? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? I only can speak for Dutch customs,(but I think it's not that differnet for the other EU countries) but when a computer part costs more then ~35,- euro's you have to pay a tax of 30% of the combined price (item + shipping). Regardless if it's new or used.... It's not that poeple don't want to pay taxes but to pay 30%.... And also over the transport feels not very fair. -Rik From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 6 15:41:46 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:41:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: lying on customs forms In-Reply-To: <200810061919.m96JJKYD001107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <665562.92024.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> That is definately true. When I forget myself and buy stuff from Amazon.com (normally I use .co.uk) the packages always end up at customs where I have to pay import charges. Here's what the label says on the package: "Goods purchased and imported into the EU with a value over ?18, or goods imported from one private person to another private person as a gift with a value over ?36, are subject to customs charges. These reliefs do not extend to Excise goods (e.g. cigarettes, tobacco and alcohol)." Not sure if the charge varies here in the UK depending on the size of the package, but for a smallish box (A4 shape, with 3" depth) it cost me ?19.38 (?8.00 Royal Mail handling fee and the rest is VAT). The box in question contained some DVD's and CD's. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 6/10/08, Dennis Boone wrote: 5. Some (all?) European countries have hefty import duties which make it desirable for buyers to ask for this kind of treatment. De From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 6 15:51:13 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:51:13 -0700 Subject: Evolution of Memory Protection and Virtual Memory In-Reply-To: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> References: <48E96FF0.80703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48EA7A41.4010001@brouhaha.com> For memory protection, look for the book on CTSS, the title of which escapes me at the moment. For virtual memory, look for material regarding the Manchester/Ferranti/Plessy Atlas computer. The Wikipedia articles have useful references. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 6 16:14:03 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:14:03 -0700 Subject: DEC 40th anniversary CD Message-ID: <48EA7F9B.8070004@bitsavers.org> The disc is a hybrid audio/isofs, so I wasn't able to figure out how to make an image. A tarball of the isofs part is up now under http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/cd From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 6 16:36:53 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC 40th anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <48EA7F9B.8070004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200810062136.m96LarUN005345@onyx.spiritone.com> > The disc is a hybrid audio/isofs, so I wasn't able to figure out how to make > an image. A tarball of the isofs part is up now under > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/cd Out of curiousity wouldn't 'dd' on UNIX, or a the following on VMS work? $ MOUNT/FOREIGN $ COPY {source dev} {filename}.IMG Or is the "partitioning" being recognized at such a low level? If so how about doing it under something like RSX-11M+? Zane From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Oct 6 16:33:51 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48EA843F.5@compsys.to> >Dan Gahlinger wrote: >I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > >there' s the PDP-11 no one has asked for yet, > >And I just found an old Xyplex switch *8 slot* I believe, loaded. was working last I checked it (many years ago), has BGP also > >and some others: > >cisco 1721 (2 of these) >cisco 2501 >cisco 2505 > >I'm moving in a few weeks and they need to be gone by then. >In in scarbough (part of Toronto, Canada) > >if I get no response, it's all going to the scrap dealer. > > Jerome Fine replies: I want to pick up the PDP-11. I may also want the cisco. Please e-mail me or call me at (416) 667-8233 Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 6 17:55:27 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:55:27 -0700 Subject: DEC 40th anniversary CD Message-ID: <48EA975F.70605@bitsavers.org> > Out of curiousity wouldn't 'dd' on UNIX, or a the following on VMS work? A hybrid disk has multiple sessions recorded on it. On the DEC disk, the first session is a music track, and the second is a 9660 file system with Windows gunk on it. The tarball has everything from the second session. I tried making an ISO image, and it only saves the first session. The content is fairly lame. Some blocky AVI's, and the DEC timeline with low resolution images from the DEC archives, pretty much identical to the timeline that was on the DEC website. The whole thing is about 90mb. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 18:25:35 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:25:35 -0500 Subject: Problems with 2114s In-Reply-To: <48EA32CC.5040201@xs4all.nl> References: <200810061312.m96DCEgb020120@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48EA32CC.5040201@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48EA9E6F.9040301@gmail.com> F.J. Kraan wrote: > Making it an even weirder design; 256 bytes of stack RAM. Didn't the humble 6502 (and no doubt lots of others) have an 8-bit stack pointer? I suspect it wasn't uncommon for 256 bytes to be seen as adequate around that time period, although things would have moved on a few years later... From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Oct 6 18:31:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:31:49 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: HP 9000/300 computers available Message-ID: <200810061931.50239.rtellason@verizon.net> I contacted a friend of mine who lives in Kentucky, and forwarded that post to him. He's not interested in the machines, but might be willing to help out a bit: ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: Fwd: HP 9000/300 computers available Date: Monday 06 October 2008 18:45 To: "Roy J. Tellason" > > I work in Lexington, so it's not far at all. But, like you, > > I don't have room for those systems. I could assist someone > > in having them shipped somewhere if anyone wanted them > Ok, since you didn't respond to my earlier post and since I have the > feeling from earlier comments that you're not into putting your info out > there the way I do, how about I just take the above and forward _that_ bit > to the list? Then I can take what replies I get and forward 'em to you. > > Will that work for ya? Ok, that'll work. It's been a hectic day at work. I may be a bit slow about getting things shipped out, too. It's beginning to look like I may end up working lots of OT in the next few weeks. Dave ------------------------------------------------------- So, if someone wants those machines, email _me_. I'll batch up the replies and pass 'em along to Dave, to work out whatever he's able and willing to handle with the parties involved. How's that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Oct 6 18:33:21 2008 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:33:21 +0200 Subject: DEC 40th anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <48EA975F.70605@bitsavers.org> References: <48EA975F.70605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20081006233321.GB6898@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2008-10-06 15:55:27 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > Out of curiousity wouldn't 'dd' on UNIX, or a the following on VMS work? > > A hybrid disk has multiple sessions recorded on it. On the DEC disk, the > first session is a music track, and the second is a 9660 file system with > Windows gunk on it. The tarball has everything from the second session. > > I tried making an ISO image, and it only saves the first session. Sure. Maybe (on Linux at least) something like `readom -clone' does the trick? Or alternatively, `dd' the data session and extract the audio parts with `icedax'. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: 17:45 <@Eimann> Hrm, das E90 hat keinen Lebenszeit Call-Time Counter mehr the second : 17:46 <@jbglaw> Eimann: Wof?r braucht man das? 17:46 <@jbglaw> Eimann: F?r mich ist an 'nem Handy wichtig, da? ich mein Gege?ber h?ren kann. Und da? mein Gegen?ber mich versteht... 17:47 <@KrisK> jbglaw: was du meinst ist wodka. 17:47 <@KrisK> jbglaw: es klingelt und man h?rt stimmen From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 6 18:43:56 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Problems with 2114s In-Reply-To: <48EA9E6F.9040301@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Oct 6, 8 06:25:35 pm" Message-ID: <200810062343.m96NhuJ8013652@floodgap.com> > > Making it an even weirder design; 256 bytes of stack RAM. > > Didn't the humble 6502 (and no doubt lots of others) have an 8-bit stack > pointer? Yup. However, this was just ordinary RAM, fixed at location $0100. On RAM starved systems like the KIM-1, program code was often put in the stack and careful management of the stack employed to prevent it getting overwritten. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I need to clean my toilet brush." -------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 6 18:50:19 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Problems with 2114s In-Reply-To: <200810062343.m96NhuJ8013652@floodgap.com> References: <200810062343.m96NhuJ8013652@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20081006164913.N59680@shell.lmi.net> > > > Making it an even weirder design; 256 bytes of stack RAM. > > Didn't the humble 6502 (and no doubt lots of others) have an 8-bit stack > > pointer? On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Yup. However, this was just ordinary RAM, fixed at location $0100. On RAM > starved systems like the KIM-1, program code was often put in the stack and > careful management of the stack employed to prevent it getting overwritten. . . . and some languages, including C, create space for local variables in stack space From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 6 18:50:02 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:50:02 -0700 Subject: VAX 4000-300 shuts down Message-ID: All, I'm wondering if someone can confirm my diagnosis for a problem with my VAX 4000-300. One day, after it had been running for the better part of a week, I found it unresponsive with only the AC light glowing. I suspected an overheat problem, but the overtemp light wasn't on. Nonetheless, I shut the machine down, left it for a while and came back. It started up again, booted into VMS and seemed fine. I let it run for a half-hour or so, then shut it down normally. That was two days ago. I just tried to power it up again to do some work, and the power-on tests fail about halfway through (but never in the same spot, so I don't think it's actually a power-on test failure). The machine goes to the same state each time: just the AC lamp glowing. I even have the fans on high (and that's noisy), but no go. I figure it's time to replace the power supply unit (or refurbish it, but replacements are still relatively cheap). Any other thoughts? Thanks -- Ian From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 20:07:47 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:07:47 -0400 Subject: DEC 40th anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <48EA975F.70605@bitsavers.org> References: <48EA975F.70605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: dd would work if you do the whole disk ie: dd if=/dev/sda0 of=/tmp/diskfile.iso where /dev/sda0 is the actual device the disk is inserted in... ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:55:27 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: DEC 40th anniversary CD > > > Out of curiousity wouldn't 'dd' on UNIX, or a the following on VMS work? > > A hybrid disk has multiple sessions recorded on it. On the DEC disk, the > first session is a music track, and the second is a 9660 file system with > Windows gunk on it. The tarball has everything from the second session. > > I tried making an ISO image, and it only saves the first session. > > The content is fairly lame. Some blocky AVI's, and the DEC timeline with > low resolution images from the DEC archives, pretty much identical to the timeline that was > on the DEC website. The whole thing is about 90mb. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 20:08:45 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:08:45 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <48E97B56.1030608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48E97B56.1030608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: don't know, need to take pictures. its large, like a bar fridge, on four wheels the front panel is missing (plastic). controls are still there. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:43:34 -0600 > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > To: > Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of > > Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. >> >> there' s the PDP-11 no one has asked for yet, >> >> > Umm what PDP was that again? > >> And I just found an old Xyplex switch *8 slot* I believe, loaded. was working last I checked it (many years ago), has BGP also >> >> and some others: >> >> cisco 1721 (2 of these) >> cisco 2501 >> cisco 2505 >> >> I'm moving in a few weeks and they need to be gone by then. >> In in scarbough (part of Toronto, Canada) >> >> if I get no response, it's all going to the scrap dealer. >> >> Dan. >> _________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 20:10:10 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:10:10 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: not that I'm aware of no, they're very recent devices. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:58:37 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of > > At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >>I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > >>cisco 1721 (2 of these) >>cisco 2501 >>cisco 2505 > > Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some > interest on the HECnet list. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | _________________________________________________________________ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 6 23:00:57 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:00:57 -0600 Subject: High European Import Duties (was: lying on customs forms) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:19:20 -0400. <200810061919.m96JJKYD001107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <200810061919.m96JJKYD001107 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > 5. Some (all?) European countries have hefty import duties which make it > desirable for buyers to ask for this kind of treatment. In 1986 I had just graduated college and secured a job with a firm outside of Paris, France. I wanted to show them the possibilites of how scientific software could go, so I wanted to have my Amiga 1000 shipped over to France. Holy shit, you would not believe the amount of paperwork and red tape involved in doing this. It might be better now, but I don't expect it to be tons better just because they're under the EU now. I had to pay 4,000FFR "temporary import duty" and I had to pay it in *cash*. Supposedly the money would be returned when proof was presented at customs that the machine was shipped back. I also never found a good technical bookstore in Paris, which always amazed me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 6 23:20:16 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 00:20:16 -0400 Subject: lying on customs forms In-Reply-To: <200810061919.m96JJKYD001107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200810061919.m96JJKYD001107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200810070020.16216.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 06 October 2008, Dennis Boone wrote: > 4. Some carriers (*cough*UPS*cough*) will backcharge the sender for > customs duties of the recipient fails to pay them. I have discovered that FedEx does this too. It took them 2 months to tell me the receiver hadn't payed the duties, long after I could have taken any reasonable action with ebay against them. It would be nice if they wouldn't deliver the item without the duties being paid... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From grant at stockly.com Mon Oct 6 23:36:57 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:36:57 -0800 Subject: Copying Computer Audio Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0K8C001OJQ4WHB60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I'm trying to get some loose ends tied up, and that involves duplicating tape cassettes. I have a TC-WE635 "Stereo Cassette Deck". It says "DC Servo Controlled Motor" on the doors, so it must be good! : ) It has "Automatic Tape Selection", so I will have to trust that... It gives me a selection of: Dolby NR (OFF) (ON) (ON FILTER) and then a (B) and (C) Which settings do I want to use? It has stereo audio outputs on the back, of course, so I will also record the audio into a computer. However these days I don't want to put all of my trust into the computer... Grant From kim at hawtin.net.au Tue Oct 7 00:02:43 2008 From: kim at hawtin.net.au (Kim Hawtin) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:32:43 +1030 Subject: Copying Computer Audio Tapes In-Reply-To: <0K8C001OJQ4WHB60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0K8C001OJQ4WHB60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <48EAED73.9090804@hawtin.net.au> Grant Stockly wrote: > I'm trying to get some loose ends tied up, and that involves duplicating > tape cassettes. > > I have a TC-WE635 "Stereo Cassette Deck". It says "DC Servo Controlled > Motor" on the doors, so it must be good! : ) > > It has "Automatic Tape Selection", so I will have to trust that... > > It gives me a selection of: > > Dolby NR > (OFF) (ON) (ON FILTER) and then a (B) and (C) > > Which settings do I want to use? > > It has stereo audio outputs on the back, of course, so I will also > record the audio into a computer. However these days I don't want to > put all of my trust into the computer... You would want to turn off anything thing to do with Dolby filtering/mixing of the channels. I've done some duplication of tapes of code i wrote for VZ200 many years ago and key thing was turning off bass boost and keep the bass knob low and fiddle with the tone setting a bit. I remember band pass filters for different systems, I ended up making one for the VZ200 so I could make duplicates of my code =) also some had VU meter style level monitoring, etc... cheers, Kim From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Oct 7 00:31:39 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 01:31:39 -0400 Subject: The dumpster is here (re: Stuff available for free/donation -> cheap) Message-ID: <48EAF43B.4020607@hawkmountain.net> The dumpster is here... and I'm prepping for the first pass which I'll be doing this weekend. In addition to stuff I've previously listed, I also have a ton of Sun 411 drive boxes. Most people probably don't want any, but if someone wants a spare power supply, the fan, or the internal scsi cable, a replacement plastic top, etc... let me know... That pile of 411 cases has dumpster written all over it. I still have a bunch of SS10 bare bases. If you want a spare mainboard, power supply, internal scsi cabling, etc... speak up now.... I have one bare SS20 base left (with JPL Y2K 'OK' sticker on the front :-) ). I have a QMS PS810 printer that is going to the dumpster. It is a parts printer. The fuser I think is gone, and the power supply is suspect. The logic board is known good. This printer served to 'rescue' a QMS PS815 (donating it's power supply, fuser, and the plastic 'shell'). Any parts wanted off this (mainboard, etc) let me know. -- Curt From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 7 00:36:49 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:36:49 +0200 Subject: DEC 40th anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <48EA7F9B.8070004@bitsavers.org> References: <48EA7F9B.8070004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20081007073649.e14bb4c1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:14:03 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > The disc is a hybrid audio/isofs, so I wasn't able to figure out how > to make an image. CDRDAO is capable of correctly imaging this type of CD: http://cdrdao.sourceforge.net/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jzg22 at drexel.edu Tue Oct 7 01:03:50 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:03:50 -0400 Subject: TI990 tape interface mcu question Message-ID: <48EAFBC6.4080904@drexel.edu> Does anyone have the rom images for the TI990/10 (or other TI990?) cassette interface board? Its mentioned on the archive at bitsavers, yet I can't find a copy of the roms or mcu contents anywhere. Does it use a TMS1000-series mcu or something actually dumpable? -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From ats at offog.org Tue Oct 7 01:57:22 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:57:22 +0100 Subject: DEC 40th anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <200810062136.m96LarUN005345@onyx.spiritone.com> (Zane H. Healy's message of "Mon\, 6 Oct 2008 14\:36\:53 -0700 \(PDT\)") References: <200810062136.m96LarUN005345@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Out of curiousity wouldn't 'dd' on UNIX, or a the following on VMS > work? Not usually -- audio tracks are in a different low-level format with less error-correction than data tracks. Something like "cdrdao read-cd" can be used to produce a .bin/.cue image of a disk, or since the data track's already been extracted, you could just use cdparanoia or cdda2wav to rip the audio tracks. -- Adam Sampson From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Oct 3 15:53:57 2008 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:53:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Selling my LA36 DECwriter II Message-ID: <23014098.1223067237979.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi, Just thought I would let everyone know I'm selling my LA36, if anyone here is in need of one. The auction is listed here. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300263785183 Have a good day. Julian From eric2erica1962 at westnet.com.au Sat Oct 4 04:56:55 2008 From: eric2erica1962 at westnet.com.au (erica rawlings) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:56:55 +0800 Subject: FW: cashtrac.exe ??? Message-ID: <20081004095636.DB142223859@hosted06.westnet.com.au> 2nd request _____ Subject: cashtrac.exe ??? Dear sirs I have been using cash Trac for a long long long time but my disk got mutilated and would like to use this program again Please advise how can I download this again for free Look forward to your prompt reply Eric From jimgeneva at dorisland.net Sat Oct 4 14:29:45 2008 From: jimgeneva at dorisland.net (jimgeneva at dorisland.net) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 13:29:45 -0600 Subject: HP64000 System, Books, Software available Message-ID: <001001c92657$8fb19540$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Steve any chance in gettin email phone number something of the person you gave your HP 64000 to. Jim From jrr at flippers.com Mon Oct 6 11:03:41 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:03:41 -0700 Subject: Problems with 2114s In-Reply-To: <48E91D0D.6000005@xs4all.nl> References: <200810051701.m95H0rO1000561@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48E91D0D.6000005@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48EA36DD.5040706@flippers.com> F.J. Kraan wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> the card. As soon as I spotted this was implemented with 2114s [1]s, >> I knew what to do. I replaced them, and put the card back in, not > I heard before that 2114 are considered unreliable. Is there an > overview of brands that are not reliable? I have a computer in repair, > a DAI, 8080 CPU with special stack RAM implemented with 2114s, so that > could be the problem. But it would be nice to be more sure before > soldering them out. > > An image of the suspect RAM is here: > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/2114s.jpg. > > Greetings, > > Fred Jan > > Hi Fred, If you have a friend with a Fluke 9010A or 9100 and an 8080 pod you can thoroughly test your 2111 - 400ns (you pictures shows 2111-4, not 2114s) RAM without unsoldering them. Actually you can test any RAM that you can access from the CPU socket directly (with the correct pod of course), indirect addressing can be done, but you would need to write a small script or hard poke the locations first... Why do you want to replace them? The 2114 by the way is no more or less reliable than other RAM of the period - in my repair experience, they were VERY common back in the late 70s. John :-#)# From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 11:47:14 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: desirous of acquiring a Tektronix TC-2000 In-Reply-To: <000001c92577$39c53050$ad4f90f0$@com> Message-ID: <85562.30147.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> the subject line sounds like the author is looking for one... the body sounds like he's offering one... regardless, this is a nice luggable. Very nice if you ask me. I just found one on eBay a few weeks ago, and was glad to find it. It's called a protocol analyzer, but the guts are a peecee compatible (pretty much 100%, though I haven't tested it). My hard drive even works, o glory. --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Jose Martins wrote: > From: Jose Martins > Subject: desirous of acquiring a Tektronix TC-2000 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, October 3, 2008, 12:43 PM > We have one unit available > > If any interest email us > > Thanks > > 45martins at comcast.net From sieler at allegro.com Mon Oct 6 13:47:31 2008 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:47:31 -0700 Subject: Closed vs. open source timeline. In-Reply-To: <48ADB105.FF479387@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20080821152704.J12987@plum.flirble.org>, <48ADB105.FF479387@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48E9FAD3.14944.445632A@sieler.allegro.com> Re: > Andrew Back wrote: > > Does anyone know if the history of closed/unavailable vs. open/available > > source is documented anywhere? Ideally in a book or journal that can be > > properly referenced. Sorry for the late add-on ... based on the above and one other post, it looks like you're willing to consider source code from the vendor, so I'd add Burroughs Corporation. The mainframe group (B6500/B6700/B7700/etc) would send the source code out with each release of the operating system. >From personal experience, I saw this happen from 1970 through 1979, and suspect it happened at least somewhat before and after that period. Also, for "available", Hewlett-Packard used to sell the source code for the MPE operating system (on the Classic HP 3000) for $500 in the late 1970s and during the 1980s (I saw a copy purchased in 1977, and purchased a copy circa 1986), and used to sell the source code for MPE XL (later MPE/iX) operating system for about $30,000 in the mid/late 1980s and possibly the 1990s (I've talked to about three companies that purchased it), and used to sell the source for HP-UX (at least in the mid-1990s) (I've talked to one company that purchased it for HP-UX 10.20.) Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 6 14:43:28 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: edge connector rarity [was Re: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking)] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810061949.PAA20463@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> I notice that edge connectors are a lot less common than they used >>> to be. [...] >> What's the difference between an "edge connector" and, say, the >> connector used for a PCI card or a modern peecee memory stick? > Last time I saw a PCI card and a PC motherboard that took it, the > connector was certainly what I would call an 'edge connector. A > finer pitch han the ISA one, but still an edge connector Okay, so I havne't misunderstood anything there. > I have to admit the latest memory modules that I've handled are > SIMMs. The connector on those is _close_ to being an edge connector, > but [...actually pressure, not wiping...] Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that. DIMMs don't do that, at least in my experience; they are wiping contacts, very much like PCI or ISA slots. (I speculate that this is because while, like SIMMs, they have connection pads on both sides, they also, unlike SIMMs, connect different things to different sides' pads - and the pressure connectors SIMMs use aren't very well suited to that sort of pinout.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From philpem at philpem.me.uk Mon Oct 6 17:01:16 2008 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:01:16 +0100 Subject: DEC 40th anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <48EA7F9B.8070004@bitsavers.org> References: <48EA7F9B.8070004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48EA8AAC.3080806@philpem.me.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > The disc is a hybrid audio/isofs, so I wasn't able to figure out how to > make > an image. A tarball of the isofs part is up now under > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/cd Assuming you're using Linux or some other *nix variant, "cdparanoia" will extract the audio tracks as WAV files. Your best bet with those is probably to compress them as "flac" files (Free Lossless Audio Codec). You can go from WAV to FLAC and back again, compare the audio data from the WAV with the decompressed file, and they'll be bit-for-bit identical. Compression isn't as good as the lossy formats (and if you're going to use one of those, please make it Ogg Vorbis, bitrate-for-bitrate the quality is far better than MP3) but if you're after archiving, it's a better choice than keeping WAV files around. For the ISOFS bit, good old "dd" works a treat. Or perhaps "readcd". If you want to make an exact copy of the disc, you're going to need something like cdrdao to read and image the disc and create a "cuesheet" (which basically tells the authoring software what's on each track and allows you to use a CD recorder to make a near-identical copy). -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 01:33:08 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:33:08 -0500 Subject: MAC SE instability and floppy issues Message-ID: hello all, I have an original Mac SE here, which seems to be giving me lots of trouble. so far im in a new mobo, CRT (I let the magic gas out of the original one, second SE ive done that to!) SCSI and floppy cables, and floppy drive. the weirdest thing happens to it, and right now, im looking at power supply failure as the next logical guess. my problem is, I try to boot up my mac from either internal or external floppy, but regardless of which it is, it will read the disk, and on restart the floppy disk will be corrupted and will need to be reimaged. second, no matter the hard drive I put in it, the mac either will not see it, or it will go through, initialize, then at the end a dialog box will flash really fast on and off, and the computer I/O will lock up while doing this. the other thing that makes me think it is PS failure is the fact that one time i hooked the hard drive in to power while it was running, and when I did so, the fan speed bogged down significantly on spin-up of the drive. is there anyone with pinouts of this PS i can use to test it, or any advice as to what failure points I should check first? I tried google (they say its our friend...) and I get no info as to the voltages of the logic board connector or the like. any help is most appreciated!! thanks From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 7 02:44:41 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 00:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selling my LA36 DECwriter II In-Reply-To: <23014098.1223067237979.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23014098.1223067237979.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Oct 2008, Julian Wolfe (FireflyST) wrote: > Hi, > > Just thought I would let everyone know I'm selling my LA36, if anyone here is in need of one. > > The auction is listed here. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300263785183 > > Have a good day. Is there someone in Southern California who'd like to unload something like this? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Oct 7 06:00:25 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:00:25 -0400 Subject: Copying Computer Audio Tapes In-Reply-To: <0K8C001OJQ4WHB60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0K8C001OJQ4WHB60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <48EB4149.1060807@comcast.net> Grant Stockly wrote: > I'm trying to get some loose ends tied up, and that involves > duplicating tape cassettes. > > I have a TC-WE635 "Stereo Cassette Deck". It says "DC Servo > Controlled Motor" on the doors, so it must be good! : ) > > It has "Automatic Tape Selection", so I will have to trust that... > > It gives me a selection of: > > Dolby NR > (OFF) (ON) (ON FILTER) and then a (B) and (C) > > Which settings do I want to use? > > It has stereo audio outputs on the back, of course, so I will also > record the audio into a computer. However these days I don't want to > put all of my trust into the computer... Make Dolby = OFF I suppose these are original tapes ? I don't think these recordings ever used Dolby with such a narrow band of frequencies. The signal strength should be strong enough still if they were kept in a safe place. Even though you have a stereo deck and the tapes were usually recorded on a mono deck, you still might want to wire both right and left channels on the sound card to make your recording. Because when you insert the stereo plug without this you leave one of the inputs floating if it's not wired--might get some unexpected results. =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From trebor72 at execpc.com Tue Oct 7 08:11:45 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:11:45 -0500 Subject: Downsizing My Systems Message-ID: <48EB6011.6040201@execpc.com> As part of my Downsizing Efforts I am offering the Following three 8" SSSD Floppies SCP DISK 1 MS DOS v2.0 SCP DISK 2 MS DOS v2.0 SCP 86 DOS Cromemco Format I will make copies available to interested parties. Please contact me off-line to arrange Details Bob in Wisconsin From trebor72 at execpc.com Tue Oct 7 08:14:09 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:14:09 -0500 Subject: Downsizing my Computers Message-ID: <48EB60A1.5020208@execpc.com> I just had a bout With Colon Cancer and am Downsizing my Computer Collection. I have a N*Horizon with a Wooden Cover. I am going to stuff all the N* Cards I have into it along with a Pair of SA400's and Offer it to the Highest Bidder "AS IS" Got a CPU, W/Prom Option[Untested] a MDS-AD3, 2-MDC-A4, MDS-A2, 2-RAM 32A1, 2-16K RAM, 2-HRAM6, a SIO Rev3, HSIO [4 port serial] Weighs about 65# not including Packing. Then I have some Manuals and a box of 5 1/4 Floppies that I will have to send Separately Make an Offer. I can Only deal with Money Orders or Certified Checks Don't have a Credit Card so can't get PAYPAL Bob in Wisconsin Bout 15 Miles NW of Milwaukee right off Hwy 41-45 in Menomonee Falls Above E-Mail is good From trebor72 at execpc.com Tue Oct 7 08:16:58 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:16:58 -0500 Subject: Downzizing my Computers Message-ID: <48EB614A.6000905@execpc.com> As Part of my Downsizing efforts I am offering the following items to the BEST OFFER. I Can only handle Money Orders or certified Check as I can't acquire a PAYPAL acct. I will make copies Available to any Interested Party but will not be selling the Originals at this Time. CDOS 2.36 Drivers SSSD CDOS 2.53 64K SSSD CDOS 2.53 64K SSSD CDOS 2.53 SSSD CDOS 5.0 DSDDsystem disk 2 CCPM SSSD System rebuild disk 1 SSSD System rebuild disk 2 SSSD I believe all of these to be for a CROMEMCO System Some of them were readable on my NEC APC and some I was able to read on the Compu-Pro 8-16 From trebor72 at execpc.com Tue Oct 7 08:19:30 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:19:30 -0500 Subject: Downsizing my Computers Message-ID: <48EB61E2.8050508@execpc.com> As part of my Downsizing efforts I am making available Copies of any of the following to interested parties. I can only handle Money Orders and Certified checks as I don't have a PAYPAL Account CP/M 2.2 4FDG XEBEC BIOS 63K CP/M 2.2 Diagnostics 4FDC 4 8" Drives 4FDC BIOS 8-16-83 64K System Bios Unk bootable on a 16fdc 48K System boots on a 16FDC ITCCPM2.2 ITC 64K CP/M 2.2 A= 8MB HD B= 2MB HD C&D 8" floppies ITC 64K CP/M 2.2 A B C = 8" CP/M 2.2 no source boot fails 4FDC MP/M MASTER CP/M 2.2 56K 16FDC/WD1 4FDC TUART Routine Cromtvar ,asm, .com Intelligent Terminals Corporation Replacement disk CP/M 2.25 for 4FDC 3 SA800 drives 63K 4FDC SA800 A&B sa400 C&D 63K CP/M 2.2 Cromemco Bios CRBIOS.z80 Cromemco System Diagnostics I also have a ZPU and a 16K static RAM plus a 48K ByteSaver Bob in Wisconsin From trebor72 at execpc.com Tue Oct 7 08:21:56 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:21:56 -0500 Subject: CROMEMCO Systems & ZPU Message-ID: <48EB6274.2080603@execpc.com> I have a Cromemco ZPU I need to qualify. I also have a lot of Cromemco Floppies. If I could get the ZPU Working then I might be able to set up a Cromemco HD System. There is a lot of source on those floppies. I posted them for making copies. I just was able to look at all of them using my Compu-Pro 8-16 system booted up to CP/M 2.2. Is there anyone out there still running CROMEMCO's. Got a bunch of CDOS Floppies as well [they are also posted to make copies available] There is a wealth of Stuff here that should be wasted. Need to get them copied and saved somewhere. Job is to big for me right now. Bob in Wisconsin From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 09:57:22 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for some used floppy media Message-ID: <804430.27611.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm in need of some blank floppies... I need 8" soft sector disks for my TRS-80 Model II, I'm building an adapter cable to hook an 8" drive to a PC so I can write system disks for it. I've also got a Model 16 that's begging to get revived. I could also use some more 5 1/4" DSDD disks - I'm beginning to run low. A while back I had rescued a very large box of used disks from a school basement - and it turns out that they must have gotten damp at some point in their past life. Many of them have that "disk fungus", and won't format. I thought I was set for disks, and hadn't sought more out in years. I am primarily looking for used disks, I know that I used to run across large boxes of used 5 1/4" disks pretty regularly, but that was a few years ago. Thanks! -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 7 10:52:25 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:52:25 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C0FAD51-BF6D-4E18-AF9E-250E3E1D6508@neurotica.com> Recent devices? The 2500 platform is upwards of fifteen years old. -Dave On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:10 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > not that I'm aware of no, they're very recent devices. > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:58:37 -0700 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> From: healyzh at aracnet.com >> Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of >> >> At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >>> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. >> >>> cisco 1721 (2 of these) >>> cisco 2501 >>> cisco 2505 >> >> Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some >> interest on the HECnet list. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > _________________________________________________________________ > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tonym at compusource.net Tue Oct 7 11:07:37 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:07:37 GMT Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of Message-ID: <20081007120720.SM07908@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Dave McGuire mcguire at neurotica.com >Sent 10/7/2008 11:52:25 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only cctech at classiccmp.org >Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of > > > Recent devices? The 2500 platform is upwards of fifteen years old. > > -Dave > Plus, the next task would be finding an IOS for it with DECnet. Back then, Cisco was raping and pillaging for IOS. Then ya gotta hope the flash+RAM in the 25xx is enough for an IOS with DECnet, assuming you find someone with a Cisco support contract to get you an IOS for it. Tony From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Oct 7 11:25:42 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:25:42 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <7C0FAD51-BF6D-4E18-AF9E-250E3E1D6508@neurotica.com> References: <7C0FAD51-BF6D-4E18-AF9E-250E3E1D6508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: but they are still sold AFAIK the 2500 series is the true workhorse of cisco products. Dan. > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:52:25 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of > > > Recent devices? The 2500 platform is upwards of fifteen years old. > > -Dave > > On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:10 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > not that I'm aware of no, they're very recent devices. > > > > ---------------------------------------- > >> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:58:37 -0700 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> From: healyzh at aracnet.com > >> Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of > >> > >> At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >>> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. > >> > >>> cisco 1721 (2 of these) > >>> cisco 2501 > >>> cisco 2505 > >> > >> Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some > >> interest on the HECnet list. > >> > >> Zane > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > >> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > >> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > _________________________________________________________________ From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 7 12:10:51 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:10:51 -0500 Subject: MAC SE instability and floppy issues In-Reply-To: <200810071700.m97H09ba037380@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810071700.m97H09ba037380@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 10/7/08, Joe wrote: >hello all, >I have an original Mac SE here, which seems to be giving me lots of >trouble. so far im in a new mobo, CRT (I let the magic gas out of the >original one, second SE ive done that to!) SCSI and floppy cables, and >floppy drive. the weirdest thing happens to it, and right now, im >looking at power supply failure as the next logical guess. my problem >is, I try to boot up my mac from either internal or external floppy, >but regardless of which it is, it will read the disk, and on restart >the floppy disk will be corrupted and will need to be reimaged. >second, no matter the hard drive I put in it, the mac either will not >see it, or it will go through, initialize, then at the end a dialog >box will flash really fast on and off, and the computer I/O will lock >up while doing this. the other thing that makes me think it is PS >failure is the fact that one time i hooked the hard drive in to power >while it was running, and when I did so, the fan speed bogged down >significantly on spin-up of the drive. is there anyone with pinouts of >this PS i can use to test it, or any advice as to what failure points >I should check first? I tried google (they say its our friend...) and >I get no info as to the voltages of the logic board connector or the >like. any help is most appreciated!! thanks On my Plus, I had sporadic problems which ended up being due to the connector between the analog (including power supply) and digital boards. I took that loose, scrubbed pins lightly with very fine sandpaper and isopropanol, sprayed on silicone oil (but I'd recommend a contact cleaner instead), and re-seated both ends of the cable. Resistance across the cable (measured from solder joint on the back side of the analog board to solder joint on the back side of the digital board) went down from 10's of Ohms to fractions of an Ohm, and the system turned reliable. The resistance measurement is a pretty easy one to make, with the system off. I'd recommend that, at least. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 12:12:31 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:12:31 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <7C0FAD51-BF6D-4E18-AF9E-250E3E1D6508@neurotica.com> References: <7C0FAD51-BF6D-4E18-AF9E-250E3E1D6508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48EB987F.6020001@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Recent devices? The 2500 platform is upwards of fifteen years old. The 2500 is older. The 1700 is a bit newer. Peace... Sridhar > On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:10 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> not that I'm aware of no, they're very recent devices. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >>> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:58:37 -0700 >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> From: healyzh at aracnet.com >>> Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of >>> >>> At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >>>> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. >>> >>>> cisco 1721 (2 of these) >>>> cisco 2501 >>>> cisco 2505 >>> >>> Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some >>> interest on the HECnet list. >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >>> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >>> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >>> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >>> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >>> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >>> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> >> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 7 13:08:01 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:08:01 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <20081007120720.SM07908@[63.69.23.239]> References: <20081007120720.SM07908@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <317E4697-E0BB-4A8B-BCD4-5311611A54BD@neurotica.com> On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:07 PM, tonym wrote: >> Recent devices? The 2500 platform is upwards of fifteen years old. >> > Plus, the next task would be finding an IOS for it with DECnet. > Back then, Cisco was > raping and pillaging for IOS. Then ya gotta hope the flash+RAM in > the 25xx is enough > for an IOS with DECnet, assuming you find someone with a Cisco > support contract to > get you an IOS for it. True. I can get ahold of that, though, if I don't already have it here. (which I think I do; I used to manage a very large number of 2500-series routers and I always keep copies of firmware) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 7 13:17:12 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:17:12 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: <7C0FAD51-BF6D-4E18-AF9E-250E3E1D6508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: The 2501 in particular was discontinued in 2003. The last of the 2500 series, the 2525, was discontinued early last year, but it was a very different (modular) design. They 68030-based 2500 series was replaced by the PowerPC-based 2600 series. But as far as being the workhorse...most definitely yes. They're in datacenters everywhere, and will be for a very long time. They're capable, reliable, pull little power, generate little heat, and they just plain don't break. -Dave On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:25 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > but they are still sold AFAIK > the 2500 series is the true workhorse of cisco products. > > Dan. > >> From: mcguire at neurotica.com >> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:52:25 -0400 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of >> >> >> Recent devices? The 2500 platform is upwards of fifteen years >> old. >> >> -Dave >> >> On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:10 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >>> not that I'm aware of no, they're very recent devices. >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:58:37 -0700 >>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> From: healyzh at aracnet.com >>>> Subject: Re: some odds and ends to get rid of >>>> >>>> At 10:32 PM -0400 10/5/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >>>>> I have some more stuff I need to clear out. >>>> >>>>> cisco 1721 (2 of these) >>>>> cisco 2501 >>>>> cisco 2505 >>>> >>>> Are these capable of routing DECnet? If so there might be some >>>> interest on the HECnet list. >>>> >>>> Zane >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >>>> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >>>> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >>>> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >>>> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >>>> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >>>> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 7 13:15:31 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:15:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: edge connector rarity [was Re: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale In-Reply-To: <200810061949.PAA20463@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Oct 6, 8 03:43:28 pm Message-ID: > Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that. DIMMs don't do that, at least in my > experience; they are wiping contacts, very much like PCI or ISA slots. > (I speculate that this is because while, like SIMMs, they have > connection pads on both sides, they also, unlike SIMMs, connect > different things to different sides' pads - and the pressure connectors > SIMMs use aren't very well suited to that sort of pinout.) OK. In which case I'd class a DIMM socket as a particular type of edge connector (admittedly if I wanted to buy one, I'd ask for a 'DIMM socket' and not 'An edge connector with number-of-pins at pitch'). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 7 13:25:07 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:25:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX 4000-300 shuts down In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Oct 6, 8 04:50:02 pm Message-ID: > > All, > > I'm wondering if someone can confirm my diagnosis for a problem with > my VAX 4000-300. One day, after it had been running for the better part > of a week, I found it unresponsive with only the AC light glowing. I > suspected an overheat problem, but the overtemp light wasn't on. > Nonetheless, I shut the machine down, left it for a while and came > back. It started up again, booted into VMS and seemed fine. I let it > run for a half-hour or so, then shut it down normally. That was two > days ago. > > I just tried to power it up again to do some work, and the power-on > tests fail about halfway through (but never in the same spot, so I don't > think it's actually a power-on test failure). The machine goes to the > same state each time: just the AC lamp glowing. I even have the fans on > high (and that's noisy), but no go. > > I figure it's time to replace the power supply unit (or refurbish it, > but replacements are still relatively cheap). Any other thoughts? Disclaimer : I have never worked on this machine. Do you have/can you get a pinout of the PSU output connector? If so, I'd check the PSU output voltages (particularly when the machine has failed), and look at the state of any power_good / powe_fail lines. If you have a 'cope, look for excessive ripple on the supply outputs too. My guess, if it is a PSU problem, is that this is a dried-up (high ESR) electrolytic cacpaitor somewhere. The problem is finding it... -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 7 13:36:25 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for some used floppy media In-Reply-To: <804430.27611.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <804430.27611.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I'm in need of some blank floppies... > > I need 8" soft sector disks for my TRS-80 Model II, I'm building an > adapter cable to hook an 8" drive to a PC so I can write system disks > for it. I've also got a Model 16 that's begging to get revived. How many do you need? I have lots. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Oct 7 13:42:26 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:42:26 -0400 Subject: ps/2 floppy drive Message-ID: <200810071442.27236.rtellason@verizon.net> I have this drive sitting here, and no particular use for it. I'd started talking about it to a list member some time back, but that never went anywhere. A label on one side says "DFL413C04A" and "Alps Electric Co. Ltd.", the drive has no faceplace on the front, and on the rear is a single keyed edge connector and no separate power connector. Anybody want to take this off my hands? I have no use for it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 7 16:36:00 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:36:00 -0500 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <48E4D3F7.1040100@verizon.net> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> <48E4D3F7.1040100@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081007163013.0adaa0c0@mail.threedee.com> At 09:00 AM 10/2/2008, Keith Monahan wrote: >I think there was some TV program here in the US that did something similar. They sold relatively inexpensive decoders, that I think attached via rs-232, which allowed you to receive the data. I believe, however, that they used the entire screen, or a box in the center of the screen, and everything was visible. In the early 80s, I think there were some very low-speed data stream systems via teletext ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext ) that could send the stream out RS-232. Is my memory correct? In June 2001 and October 2004, this list discussed the Infocipher modems for cable systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X*Press_X*Change Much higher-speed. - John From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 7 12:39:31 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:39:31 -0700 Subject: edge connector rarity [was Re: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale tracking)] In-Reply-To: <200810061949.PAA20463@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <200810061949.PAA20463@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48EB3C63.15897.588CD6B@cclist.sydex.com> It should probably be mentioned that there are edge connectors and then there are edge connectors. The cheap ones use a simple leaf contact that can gradually lose some of its "springiness". The better ones use a more complex contact that retain their strength much longer and have multiple contact points. See, for example HP US patent 6152790. You get what you pay for--unfortunately for all of us, edge connectors were a common area of cost-cutting. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 7 17:45:59 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:45:59 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081007163013.0adaa0c0@mail.threedee.com> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> <48E4D3F7.1040100@verizon.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20081007163013.0adaa0c0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <48EBE6A7.1080208@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/10/2008 22:36, John Foust wrote: > In the early 80s, I think there were some very low-speed data stream systems > via teletext ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext ) that could send > the stream out RS-232. Is my memory correct? I don't know of any exactly like that, but here in the UK, the BBC provided some "telesoftware" on high-numbered teletext pages, encoded using the CET (Council for Educational Technology) standard, the same as for Prestel (see wikipedia). There were some trials with software for other machines, but almost all the broadcast telesoftware was for the BBC Microcomputer, not surprisingly, for which there were at least two teletext adapters (the original Acorn one and later one from a third party company called Morley Electronics). The teletext adapters connect to a BBC Micro via its 1MHZ expansion bus. Most of the BBC telesoftware was linked to their "Making the Most of the Micro" TV series. There was much more telesoftware on PRESTEL, which was a dial-up viewdata-based information service; 1200 baud downstream and 75 baud upstream. Much of it was on Micronet800 (the home pages, to use a modern term, were 3-digit numbers) and Viewfax258 -- I had some on both, as well as some development pages of my own a few levels under page 500 (IIRC) -- but quite a lot of it cost money. Pages could carry a charge, and even "free" programs cost (in terms of the telephone charges, albeit at low local call rates) but it was quite popular amongst micro users. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 19:00:44 2008 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 01:00:44 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <48EBE6A7.1080208@dunnington.plus.com> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> <48E4D3F7.1040100@verizon.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20081007163013.0adaa0c0@mail.threedee.com> <48EBE6A7.1080208@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <11c909eb0810071700k759866c3y3713d6a40619cc0b@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/7 Pete Turnbull > On 07/10/2008 22:36, John Foust wrote: > > In the early 80s, I think there were some very low-speed data stream >> systems >> via teletext ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext ) that could send >> the stream out RS-232. Is my memory correct? >> > > I don't know of any exactly like that, but here in the UK, the BBC provided > some "telesoftware" on high-numbered teletext pages, encoded using the CET > (Council for Educational Technology) standard, the same as for Prestel (see > wikipedia). There were Does anyone else remember 'Tomorrow's World' in the UK transmitting software via a flashing square in the bottom right of the TV picture? There was some kind of photocell dongle that attached to the computer. Memory is vague - did it plug into the tape input? I can't remember what the target system was, possible several via the basic translater mentioned earlier in the thread? No idea what the data rate was. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 7 19:12:49 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:12:49 -0600 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0810071700k759866c3y3713d6a40619cc0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <48E438DE.9070902@bluewin.ch> <48E4D3F7.1040100@verizon.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20081007163013.0adaa0c0@mail.threedee.com> <48EBE6A7.1080208@dunnington.plus.com> <11c909eb0810071700k759866c3y3713d6a40619cc0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48EBFB01.8030005@jetnet.ab.ca> Pete Edwards wrote: > 2008/10/7 Pete Turnbull > > >> On 07/10/2008 22:36, John Foust wrote: >> >> In the early 80s, I think there were some very low-speed data stream >> >>> systems >>> via teletext ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext ) that could send >>> the stream out RS-232. Is my memory correct? >>> >>> >> I don't know of any exactly like that, but here in the UK, the BBC provided >> some "telesoftware" on high-numbered teletext pages, encoded using the CET >> (Council for Educational Technology) standard, the same as for Prestel (see >> wikipedia). There were >> > > > Does anyone else remember 'Tomorrow's World' in the UK transmitting software > via a flashing square in the bottom right of the TV picture? There was some > kind of photocell dongle that attached to the computer. Memory is vague - > did it plug into the tape input? I can't remember what the target system > was, possible several via the basic translater mentioned earlier in the > thread? No idea what the data rate was. > No, but my guess would be 50 bits a second. Most likely done by the same branch of the post office, that does mind control. See almost any Dr Who to find out all the details of mind control. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 7 19:47:28 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:47:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0810071700k759866c3y3713d6a40619cc0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <800545.83031.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I remember Tomorrows World (and various presenters... Philippa Forrester, Judith someone, Howard Stableford etc.) and having various things demonstrated on it. Dual layer DVD's and the introduction of Teletext spring to mind. I don't remember the gadget you are on about though :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 8/10/08, Pete Edwards wrote: Does anyone else remember 'Tomorrow's World' in the UK transmitting software via a flashing square in the bottom right of the TV picture? There was some kind of photocell dongle that attached to the computer. Memory is vague - did it plug into the tape input? I can't remember what the target system was, possible several via the basic translater mentioned earlier in the thread? No idea what the data rate was. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 7 21:26:26 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:26:26 -0600 Subject: Wanted: DEC VT1300 manual(s) Message-ID: I checked vt100.net/manx and manuals are listed there but are not online and I couldn't find anything on bitsavers. Does anyone have information on this? I just know its an X terminal. Digging around on the net implies that this is a diskless VAX 3100 model 30. How does it get its X server loaded at boot up? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 7 21:27:31 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:27:31 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 07 October 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > The 2501 in particular was discontinued in 2003. The last of the > 2500 series, the 2525, was discontinued early last year, but it was a > very different (modular) design. > > They 68030-based 2500 series was replaced by the PowerPC-based > 2600 series. > > But as far as being the workhorse...most definitely yes. They're > in datacenters everywhere, and will be for a very long time. They're > capable, reliable, pull little power, generate little heat, and they > just plain don't break. That's funny, the "workhorse" of all of the datacenters I've seen lately are Cisco 6509's and 4948-10GE's, with a few older 3750 and 2950s laying around for "legacy" stuff. I think you're calling a "datacenter" what I'd call a "low end wiring closet". :) Hmm, I guess my environment has helped influence my hardware collecting habits... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 7 21:36:20 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:36:20 -0600 Subject: Wanted: HP264x terminal to host/modem cable Message-ID: Hi, I've got several HP 264x terminals. These terminals expose a card edge connector off the back of the terminal to which you attach an RS-232 serial cable. Before I go to the trouble of making one of these, I wondered if anyone had one to spare? Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 8 02:22:23 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:22:23 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <800545.83031.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <800545.83031.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48EC5FAF.6080205@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/10/2008 01:47, Andrew Burton wrote: > I remember Tomorrows World (and various presenters... Philippa > Forrester, Judith someone, Howard Stableford etc.) and having various > things demonstrated on it. Judith Hann. I don't remember Philippa Forrester being on it but I do remember Maggie Philbin. Perhaps the flashing-square software was in the earlier era of Raymond Baxter and James Burke (which I also remember). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jimgeneva at dorisland.net Tue Oct 7 02:33:29 2008 From: jimgeneva at dorisland.net (jimgeneva at dorisland.net) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:33:29 -0600 Subject: Welcome to HP Computer Museum - Discussions! Message-ID: <001801c9284e$feb0f5a0$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Hello group: Just a not to let everone know that the discussion groups are back at one of the Best OLD HP Computer site in the World! great place to advertise HP stuff for sale, buying or giving away. look here http://www.hpmuseum.net/forum/ Jim From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 7 14:33:37 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: edge connector rarity [was Re: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810071940.PAA04905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...DIMM sockets vs SIMM sockets...] > OK. In which case I'd class a DIMM socket as a particular type of > edge connector Okay, so edge connectors are very far from dead. Which was where I really was tryign to go with this. :-) > (admittedly if I wanted to buy one, I'd ask for a 'DIMM socket' and > not 'An edge connector with number-of-pins at pitch'). Especially since DIMM sockets have keying fins which match up with notches in the DIMMs - somewhat like the 3.3V-vs-5V notches in PCI cards. (There are at least some 6 or 8 different DIMM sockets by the time you account for different voltage, buffering or not, desktop vs laptop, DDR vs pre-DDR, SODIMM, etc...my impression is it's a bit of a mess. One thing, at least, that everyone seems to agree on when it comes to peecee memory: if it fits mechanically, it might not work, but trying it won't fry anything.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 8 03:45:24 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:45:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: edge connector rarity [was Re: HP9836C colour alignment (grey scale In-Reply-To: <200810071940.PAA04905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200810071940.PAA04905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote: > Okay, so edge connectors are very far from dead. Which was where I > really was tryign to go with this. :-) And they are far from being cheap or low-cost. I've recently ordered many different card edge connectors from DigiKey, the most needed were the 48 pin 0.156" ones used for the HP2100/HP1000. They cost 7,30 EUR each *plus* customs and VAT. And DigiKey is actually the only one that will sell you these, so I wouldn't say (apart from DIMM sockets) that they are still very common. Christian From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Oct 8 06:24:42 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 04:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay Message-ID: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This isn't my auction, and I don't know the seller. This thing is totally over the top, however, for lots of screens and buttons. Looks like the helmsman's station for a starship. It's in Mineapolis, and, as of this writing, its $9.99 with no bids. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170268552316 Aesthedes computer system vintage - eBay (item 170268552316 end time Oct-09-08 10:38:33 PDT) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 07:46:00 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:46:00 -0500 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <48EC5FAF.6080205@dunnington.plus.com> References: <800545.83031.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <48EC5FAF.6080205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <48ECAB88.1010901@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 08/10/2008 01:47, Andrew Burton wrote: >> I remember Tomorrows World (and various presenters... Philippa >> Forrester, Judith someone, Howard Stableford etc.) and having various >> things demonstrated on it. > > Judith Hann. I don't remember Philippa Forrester being on it but I do > remember Maggie Philbin. Hmm, I remember Judith, Maggie and Howard. I think the show had seriously gone downhill by the Phillipa days (early 90s?) - less about the science and technology behind the features, and more about dazzling people with glitzy effects (same thing that happened to Horizon and all the others). > Perhaps the flashing-square software was in the earlier era of Raymond > Baxter and James Burke (which I also remember). Sounds like that might have been a bit too early, though. I think Raymond Baxter left in the mid-late 70s, and there likely wouldn't have been enough home machines around then to justify the flashing-square feature. I'd guess at it being early-80s. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 08:17:10 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:17:10 -0500 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48ECB2D6.1020501@gmail.com> William Maddox wrote: > This isn't my auction, and I don't know the seller. This thing > is totally over the top, however, for lots of screens and buttons. > Looks like the helmsman's station for a starship. It's in > Mineapolis, and, as of this writing, its $9.99 with no bids. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170268552316 > Aesthedes computer system vintage - eBay (item 170268552316 end time Oct-09-08 10:38:33 PDT) Hmm, anyone know anything more about the internals of these (e.g. are they based on any kind of stock system with extended graphics capabilities)? Consider me irritated about the timing - I suspect a trip to go get it might be asking a bit too much of our truck this side of Christmas, or I'd jump at the chance. Sounds like the seller wants it gone ASAP, unfortunately :-( Anyway, I can offer enclosed storage for it in one of our sheds over winter (almost certainly longer if needed) if that ends up being useful to anyone - I'm about 5 hours NW from Minneapolis. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 08:40:35 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:40:35 -0500 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: <48ECB2D6.1020501@gmail.com> References: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48ECB2D6.1020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48ECB853.7070605@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > William Maddox wrote: >> This isn't my auction, and I don't know the seller. This thing >> is totally over the top, however, for lots of screens and buttons. >> Looks like the helmsman's station for a starship. A few specs here: http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/aesthedes.html Pretty impressive for early 80s. So near, and yet so far! I've just prodded the seller to see what's going to happen to it if it doesn't sell, but no reply (unsurprisingly) yet. cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 8 09:59:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:59:47 -0400 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200810081059.48333.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 08 October 2008 07:24, William Maddox wrote: > This isn't my auction, and I don't know the seller. This thing > is totally over the top, however, for lots of screens and buttons. > Looks like the helmsman's station for a starship. It's in > Mineapolis, and, as of this writing, its $9.99 with no bids. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170268552316 > Aesthedes computer system vintage - eBay (item 170268552316 end time > Oct-09-08 10:38:33 PDT) Yeah, that sure does look cool... :-) No way am I gonna drive to Minneapolis to pick that up, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Oct 8 11:15:09 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:15:09 +0100 Subject: [personal] RE: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA292555@ediserver.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <001101c92961$09c08bf0$961ca8c0@mss.local> > Judith Hann. I don't remember Philippa Forrester being on it but I do > remember Maggie Philbin. ....... Philippa Forrester Much later, probably almost in the dying days of the programme. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 9:19 AM Subject: [personal] RE: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) >I remember taking the first Apple Lisa in the UK to be demonstrated on > Tomorrows World. > They had me in the studio as the program went out live. > I sat on an unused display block about three feet off camera in case of > problems. > > Presenters: Kiren Prendeville (photographic memory), Maggie Philbin > (very nervous), Judith Hann( Nice lady - brought me a coffee!!) > > > > Rod Smallwood > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 08 October 2008 08:22 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic > Computers ) > > On 08/10/2008 01:47, Andrew Burton wrote: >> I remember Tomorrows World (and various presenters... Philippa >> Forrester, Judith someone, Howard Stableford etc.) and having various >> things demonstrated on it. > > Judith Hann. I don't remember Philippa Forrester being on it but I do > remember Maggie Philbin. > > Perhaps the flashing-square software was in the earlier era of Raymond > Baxter and James Burke (which I also remember). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 8 11:13:34 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:13:34 -0500 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081008111315.07292100@mail.threedee.com> At 06:24 AM 10/8/2008, William Maddox wrote: >This isn't my auction, and I don't know the seller. This thing >is totally over the top, however, for lots of screens and buttons. >Looks like the helmsman's station for a starship. It's in >Mineapolis, and, as of this writing, its $9.99 with no bids. Dutch! http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/aesthedes.html - John From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 8 11:31:12 2008 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer at tds.net) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:31:12 -0500 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay Message-ID: <20081008113112.M1QU6.1695588.root@webfep14> There is an NEC "supercomputer" currently with no bids ($100 starting) on Ebay (140272067125). I would hate to see it get scrapped, but I am not in a position to buy it. There are not many hits on the auction page, so I thought I would spread the word here. Only a few hours left. Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 8 11:53:26 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:53:26 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6992D98B-4670-4C14-9C9F-2B855CA757CC@neurotica.com> On Oct 7, 2008, at 10:27 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> The 2501 in particular was discontinued in 2003. The last of the >> 2500 series, the 2525, was discontinued early last year, but it was a >> very different (modular) design. >> >> They 68030-based 2500 series was replaced by the PowerPC-based >> 2600 series. >> >> But as far as being the workhorse...most definitely yes. They're >> in datacenters everywhere, and will be for a very long time. They're >> capable, reliable, pull little power, generate little heat, and they >> just plain don't break. > > That's funny, the "workhorse" of all of the datacenters I've seen > lately > are Cisco 6509's and 4948-10GE's, with a few older 3750 and 2950s > laying around for "legacy" stuff. I think you're calling > a "datacenter" what I'd call a "low end wiring closet". :) > > Hmm, I guess my environment has helped influence my hardware > collecting > habits... You lead a charmed life, my friend. ;) But no, I was speaking more of "business computer rooms" than research-class datacenters. Perhaps I should've been more specific. Every now and then, I do some consulting work for small businesses, fixing broken network stuff. I see 2501s in production everywhere, terminating T1 lines, that haven't been touched (or rebooted for that matter) in a decade. If they ever go down, they'll likely be replaced by a cheap DSL circuit (for those whose inbound bandwidth requirement outstrips their outbound anyway), but most people don't seem to want to fix it if it isn't broken. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Oct 8 12:13:51 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:13:51 -0400 Subject: any other Servo-8 owners? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48ECEA4F.4000502@verizon.net> Jeff.. I have a AmproLB+ and a SB180 both in use. Both have hard drives on them via SCSI adapters. Whats a Servo-8? Allison Jeff Jonas wrote: > I revived my Servo-8 Z80 SBC (single board computer) > for the NJ VCF (Vintage Computer Fest). > Is anyone still running any, or have notes/materials? > > Anyone still running Z80 Ampro Littleboards? > Circuit Cellar SB-180 ? > > -- Jeff Jonas > jeff_jonas at att.net > From austin at ozpass.co.uk Wed Oct 8 12:36:31 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:36:31 +0100 Subject: Cisco Switches/Routers (was: some odds and ends to get rid of) In-Reply-To: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <2F7A9CF4-6438-44C7-93D0-7ED557012C63@ozpass.co.uk> On 8 Oct 2008, at 03:27, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > That's funny, the "workhorse" of all of the datacenters I've seen > lately > are Cisco 6509's and 4948-10GE's, with a few older 3750 and 2950s > laying around for "legacy" stuff. I think you're calling > a "datacenter" what I'd call a "low end wiring closet". :) > > Hmm, I guess my environment has helped influence my hardware > collecting > habits... Yeah, I'll second that. All of the secondary school networks I've been installing recently have been based around dual 6509's with 720 Supervisor Fabrics, 8 x 10- Gig etherchannels between them and dual 10-Gig links to stacked 3750's. Technically switches, of course, but the lines betwixt routers and switches are seriously blurred at the high end (esp. with the Distributed Forwarding Cards). To bring the thread on-topicwards.... I've only been working with Cisco "big iron" for the last 3 years or so, but I've never been impressed with the build quality on the 6500's. Sure, the power supplies are hewn from solid basalt (or at least weigh like they do) but the little arms that hold the port cards in are unbelievably puny and naff. Were they always like this or have Cisco succumbed to the declining-quality bug like so much of the industry since the early 90's? -Austin. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 12:39:17 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:39:17 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <6992D98B-4670-4C14-9C9F-2B855CA757CC@neurotica.com> References: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6992D98B-4670-4C14-9C9F-2B855CA757CC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48ECF045.70200@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> The 2501 in particular was discontinued in 2003. The last of the >>> 2500 series, the 2525, was discontinued early last year, but it was a >>> very different (modular) design. >>> >>> They 68030-based 2500 series was replaced by the PowerPC-based >>> 2600 series. >>> >>> But as far as being the workhorse...most definitely yes. They're >>> in datacenters everywhere, and will be for a very long time. They're >>> capable, reliable, pull little power, generate little heat, and they >>> just plain don't break. >> >> That's funny, the "workhorse" of all of the datacenters I've seen lately >> are Cisco 6509's and 4948-10GE's, with a few older 3750 and 2950s >> laying around for "legacy" stuff. I think you're calling >> a "datacenter" what I'd call a "low end wiring closet". :) >> >> Hmm, I guess my environment has helped influence my hardware collecting >> habits... > > You lead a charmed life, my friend. ;) > > But no, I was speaking more of "business computer rooms" than > research-class datacenters. Perhaps I should've been more specific. > Every now and then, I do some consulting work for small businesses, > fixing broken network stuff. I see 2501s in production everywhere, > terminating T1 lines, that haven't been touched (or rebooted for that > matter) in a decade. > > If they ever go down, they'll likely be replaced by a cheap DSL > circuit (for those whose inbound bandwidth requirement outstrips their > outbound anyway), but most people don't seem to want to fix it if it > isn't broken. Here at IBM Poughkeepsie, there are still many 2500-series boxes in various places. If I had to guess at a number, it would be in the range of a hundred or so. Of course, we have many more 6500/7600-series boxes than that, even. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 12:39:17 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:39:17 -0400 Subject: some odds and ends to get rid of In-Reply-To: <6992D98B-4670-4C14-9C9F-2B855CA757CC@neurotica.com> References: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6992D98B-4670-4C14-9C9F-2B855CA757CC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48ECF045.70200@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> The 2501 in particular was discontinued in 2003. The last of the >>> 2500 series, the 2525, was discontinued early last year, but it was a >>> very different (modular) design. >>> >>> They 68030-based 2500 series was replaced by the PowerPC-based >>> 2600 series. >>> >>> But as far as being the workhorse...most definitely yes. They're >>> in datacenters everywhere, and will be for a very long time. They're >>> capable, reliable, pull little power, generate little heat, and they >>> just plain don't break. >> >> That's funny, the "workhorse" of all of the datacenters I've seen lately >> are Cisco 6509's and 4948-10GE's, with a few older 3750 and 2950s >> laying around for "legacy" stuff. I think you're calling >> a "datacenter" what I'd call a "low end wiring closet". :) >> >> Hmm, I guess my environment has helped influence my hardware collecting >> habits... > > You lead a charmed life, my friend. ;) > > But no, I was speaking more of "business computer rooms" than > research-class datacenters. Perhaps I should've been more specific. > Every now and then, I do some consulting work for small businesses, > fixing broken network stuff. I see 2501s in production everywhere, > terminating T1 lines, that haven't been touched (or rebooted for that > matter) in a decade. > > If they ever go down, they'll likely be replaced by a cheap DSL > circuit (for those whose inbound bandwidth requirement outstrips their > outbound anyway), but most people don't seem to want to fix it if it > isn't broken. Here at IBM Poughkeepsie, there are still many 2500-series boxes in various places. If I had to guess at a number, it would be in the range of a hundred or so. Of course, we have many more 6500/7600-series boxes than that, even. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 8 12:40:26 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AmproLB+ SCSI... In-Reply-To: <48ECEA4F.4000502@verizon.net> References: <48ECEA4F.4000502@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Allison wrote: > > Jeff.. > > I have a AmproLB+ and a SB180 both in use. Both have hard drives on them via > SCSI adapters. > I apologize for hijacking the thread. :) I've got an Ampro Littleboard with a SCSI interface on it (it uses the NCR chip) and I was wondering what drive you're using with yours? I've been unable to get mine to see any drives at all. Is there another board that plugs into the 50 pin header required to make it work? tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Oct 8 12:44:12 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:44:12 -0400 Subject: CROMEMCO Systems & ZPU Message-ID: <01C9294E.3682CEE0@MSE_D03> -------Original Message: Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:21:56 -0500 From: "Robert J. Stevens" Subject: CROMEMCO Systems & ZPU I have a Cromemco ZPU I need to qualify. I also have a lot of Cromemco Floppies. If I could get the ZPU Working then I might be able to set up a Cromemco HD System. There is a lot of source on those floppies. I posted them for making copies. I just was able to look at all of them using my Compu-Pro 8-16 system booted up to CP/M 2.2. Is there anyone out there still running CROMEMCO's. Got a bunch of CDOS Floppies as well [they are also posted to make copies available] There is a wealth of Stuff here that should be wasted. Need to get them copied and saved somewhere. Job is to big for me right now. Bob in Wisconsin --------Reply: Well, I've got several Cromemcos running here, but I'm not sure exactly what you want; copy disks, check the ZPU, and/or?? mike From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Oct 8 12:50:53 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:50:53 -0400 Subject: Looking for some used floppy media Message-ID: <01C9294E.4FC0E7C0@MSE_D03> --------Original Message: Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr Ian Primus Subject: Looking for some used floppy media I'm in need of some blank floppies... I need 8" soft sector disks for my TRS-80 Model II, I'm building an adapter cable to hook an 8" drive to a PC so I can write system disks for it. I've also got a Model 16 that's begging to get revived. I could also use some more 5 1/4" DSDD disks - I'm beginning to run low. A while back I had rescued a very large box of used disks from a school basement - and it turns out that they must have gotten damp at some point in their past life. Many of them have that "disk fungus", and won't format. I thought I was set for disks, and hadn't sought more out in years. I am primarily looking for used disks, I know that I used to run across large boxes of used 5 1/4" disks pretty regularly, but that was a few years ago. Thanks! -Ian -----------Reply: Well, I've got some boxes of each, but I like to get $10+S/dozen for the 8". I'm sure others on here will have some free or cheaper; just thought I'd mention it though, JIC. mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 8 13:05:07 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CROMEMCO Systems & ZPU In-Reply-To: <01C9294E.3682CEE0@MSE_D03> References: <01C9294E.3682CEE0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20081008110439.I58129@shell.lmi.net> > There is a wealth of Stuff here that should be wasted. I'm confused From us21090 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 13:28:06 2008 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple ][* stuff needs new homes Message-ID: <486735.60167.qm@web30805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, Out of the shadows to say, I need to sell/trade/other my Apple ][* gear. I've detailed some of the Apple ][* items at http://www.applefritter.com/node/23531 I'm also interested in hearing which items may be more valuable and worth putting up on ebay (be that as it is). If you have any interest or comments, contact me off-list. Thanks, Scott us21090 at yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 8 13:22:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:22:40 -0700 Subject: CROMEMCO Systems & ZPU In-Reply-To: <20081008110439.I58129@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C9294E.3682CEE0@MSE_D03>, <20081008110439.I58129@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48EC9800.15457.AD6A416@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2008 at 11:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > There is a wealth of Stuff here that should be wasted. > > I'm confused Hmmm--must be in financial services. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 14:11:21 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:11:21 -0500 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730810081211j2ba8a136qea181c60938f140@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:24 AM, William Maddox wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170268552316 > Aesthedes computer system vintage - eBay (item 170268552316 end time Oct-09-08 10:38:33 PDT) Please, someone buy this and give it a home so I don't have to. I'm experiencing an awesome overflow right now from that pic alone. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 14:14:16 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:14:16 -0400 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: <51ea77730810081211j2ba8a136qea181c60938f140@mail.gmail.com> References: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <51ea77730810081211j2ba8a136qea181c60938f140@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48ED0688.4050704@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:24 AM, William Maddox wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170268552316 >> Aesthedes computer system vintage - eBay (item 170268552316 end time Oct-09-08 10:38:33 PDT) > > > Please, someone buy this and give it a home so I don't have to. I'm > experiencing an awesome overflow right now from that pic alone. If it weren't so far away, I would've picked it up. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 14:17:10 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:17:10 -0500 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: <51ea77730810081211j2ba8a136qea181c60938f140@mail.gmail.com> References: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <51ea77730810081211j2ba8a136qea181c60938f140@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48ED0736.9090902@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > Please, someone buy this and give it a home so I don't have to. Would love to, and I have the space - I just can't figure out a sensible way of getting it here (what with one thing and another it's a really expensive time of the year for us, which makes paying for a full courier service not a sensible option). > I'm experiencing an awesome overflow right now from that pic alone. eww. :-) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 8 14:31:20 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:31:20 -0600 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:24:42 -0700. <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <23118.79266.qm at web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, William Maddox writes: > This isn't my auction, and I don't know the seller. This thing > is totally over the top, however, for lots of screens and buttons. > Looks like the helmsman's station for a starship. It's in > Mineapolis, and, as of this writing, its $9.99 with no bids. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170268552316 > Aesthedes computer system vintage - eBay (item 170268552316 end time Oct-09-0 8 10:38:33 PDT) *major drooling* I'm investigating acquiring this... Jules, I may take you up on the storage offer! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 14:33:11 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:33:11 -0500 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: <48ED0736.9090902@gmail.com> References: <23118.79266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <51ea77730810081211j2ba8a136qea181c60938f140@mail.gmail.com> <48ED0736.9090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730810081233y77bc73bbjd97ed6f7dce15d3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 2:17 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Would love to, and I have the space - I just can't figure out a sensible way > of getting it here (what with one thing and another it's a really expensive > time of the year for us, which makes paying for a full courier service not a > sensible option). Well, one thing that would be really helpful is to know the dimensions, and just how much of it can be disassembled. My tiny truck has carried many things, but the desk looks about 8' wide, maybe 3-4' deep. The monitors clearly are just sitting on top of it, but will still take up lots of space. That probably moves it into rental truck territory, which increases the cost quite a bit... From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 8 14:47:26 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:47:26 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20081008113112.M1QU6.1695588.root@webfep14> References: <20081008113112.M1QU6.1695588.root@webfep14> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2008, at 12:31 PM, wrote: > There is an NEC "supercomputer" currently with no bids ($100 > starting) on Ebay (140272067125). I would hate to see it get > scrapped, but I am not in a position to buy it. There are not many > hits on the auction page, so I thought I would spread the word > here. Only a few hours left. I'm going to see if I can grab that. I'll be in that area with a truck in a few weeks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 8 15:01:22 2008 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer at tds.net) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:01:22 -0500 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081008150122.U57QX.1700541.root@webfep14> ---- Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 8, 2008, at 12:31 PM, wrote: > > There is an NEC "supercomputer" currently with no bids ($100 > > starting) on Ebay (140272067125). I would hate to see it get > > scrapped, but I am not in a position to buy it. There are not many > > hits on the auction page, so I thought I would spread the word > > here. Only a few hours left. > > I'm going to see if I can grab that. I'll be in that area with a > truck in a few weeks. I live about 70 miles away from it. I _may_ be able to lend a hand. Let me know what your plans are. Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 8 15:06:10 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:06:10 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20081008150122.U57QX.1700541.root@webfep14> References: <20081008150122.U57QX.1700541.root@webfep14> Message-ID: <665C93DA-9D7F-4ACE-B0B4-DF86532FAB41@neurotica.com> On Oct 8, 2008, at 4:01 PM, wrote: >>> There is an NEC "supercomputer" currently with no bids ($100 >>> starting) on Ebay (140272067125). I would hate to see it get >>> scrapped, but I am not in a position to buy it. There are not many >>> hits on the auction page, so I thought I would spread the word >>> here. Only a few hours left. >> >> I'm going to see if I can grab that. I'll be in that area with a >> truck in a few weeks. > > I live about 70 miles away from it. I _may_ be able to lend a hand. > Let me know what your plans are. Will do, thank you. My trip plans haven't gelled yet. I'll let you know when they do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 8 15:27:40 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:27:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <48EBE6A7.1080208@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 7, 8 11:45:59 pm Message-ID: > BBC Microcomputer, not surprisingly, for which there were at least two > teletext adapters (the original Acorn one and later one from a third > party company called Morley Electronics). The teletext adapters connect > to a BBC Micro via its 1MHZ expansion bus. Most of the BBC telesoftware Minor correction. The Acorn teletext adapter, which used the SAA5020 etc chipset did, indeed connect via the 1MHz bus. But the (IMHO) nicer Morley one connected to the User Port. It had an I2C interface to an SAA5240 chip (this teletext decoder used the I2C bus mot only to select the page, etc, but also allowed you to read/write the teletext page memory, so transfering the page to the BBC micro was relatively easy). There was also a CITAC (Computer Interface for Tuning and Control) chip on that I2C bus (I forget which one was used), this was used to select the TV channel, IIRC the Acorn one had 4 preset pots to select the channel, the computer could then select one of 4 channels. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 8 15:34:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:34:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: edge connector rarity [was Re: HP9836C colour alignment (grey In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Oct 8, 8 10:45:24 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote: > > Okay, so edge connectors are very far from dead. Which was where I > > really was tryign to go with this. :-) > > And they are far from being cheap or low-cost. I've recently ordered many > different card edge connectors from DigiKey, the most needed were the 48 > pin 0.156" ones used for the HP2100/HP1000. They cost 7,30 EUR each *plus* Indeed, yes... The 0.156" pitch is not at all common in Europe, most older European stuff ises 0.1" connectors. And European suppliers (or at least the ones we commonly use in the UK) stock a very limited range of such connectors, if any at all. When I needed some 0.156" ones for HP repairs/hacking (maing a PSU test rig for the 9826/36 PSU module, for example), I had to get them from Digikey. Not cheap, and the shipping even less so :-( > customs and VAT. And DigiKey is actually the only one that will sell you > these, so I wouldn't say (apart from DIMM sockets) that they are still > very common. 0.1" pitch edge connectors, particularly the ones you crimp onto IDC cable (think of the 5.25" floppy drive connector), but the solder type too, are farirly easy to get in the UK. -tony From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Oct 8 16:16:43 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:16:43 +0000 Subject: Unusual software carriers. Message-ID: <100820082116.22926.48ED233B000499450000598E22007347489DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> >Message: 12 >Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 01:00:44 +0100 >From: "Pete Edwards" >Subject: Re: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic > Computers ) >Does anyone else remember 'Tomorrow's World' in the UK transmitting software >via a flashing square in the bottom right of the TV picture? There was some >kind of photocell dongle that attached to the computer. Memory is vague - >did it plug into the tape input? I can't remember what the target system >was, possible several via the basic translater mentioned earlier in the >thread? No idea what the data rate was. >-- >Pete Edwards My son had a Timex Ironman watch that you programmed by holding it up to a computer screen that flashed the data to a sensor on the watch. It would not work on an LCD, only a CRT. Bob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 8 16:29:24 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:29:24 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48ED2634.5040903@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/10/2008 21:27, Tony Duell wrote: > Minor correction. The Acorn teletext adapter, which used the SAA5020 etc > chipset did, indeed connect via the 1MHz bus. But the (IMHO) nicer Morley > one connected to the User Port. So it does. I'd forgotten. > It had an I2C interface to an SAA5240 > chip (this teletext decoder used the I2C bus mot only to select the page, > etc, but also allowed you to read/write the teletext page memory, so > transfering the page to the BBC micro was relatively easy). There was > also a CITAC (Computer Interface for Tuning and Control) chip on that I2C > bus (I forget which one was used), this was used to select the TV > channel, IIRC the Acorn one had 4 preset pots to select the channel, the > computer could then select one of 4 channels. Yes, the tuning on the Acorn one is definitely not one of its stronger points! Apart from only having four presets, which arguably made sense in the UK in 1982, they're very fiddly to set. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 8 17:11:10 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:11:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <48EC5FAF.6080205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <525198.54115.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Philippa Forrester was a presenter around 1993/4. I admittedly lost interest in the show after she left as it had become more about medical advances and less about electronics by then. It's a shame that there are no longer shows like it on TV. Sure there are gadget shows (eg. The Gadget Show) and stuff, but nothing that actually showed you how it worked from a technical standpoint. It's why list's like this are so useful, and enjoyable, to be part of. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 8/10/08, Pete Turnbull wrote: From: Pete Turnbull Subject: Re: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 8:22 AM On 08/10/2008 01:47, Andrew Burton wrote: > I remember Tomorrows World (and various presenters... Philippa > Forrester, Judith someone, Howard Stableford etc.) and having various > things demonstrated on it. Judith Hann. I don't remember Philippa Forrester being on it but I do remember Maggie Philbin. Perhaps the flashing-square software was in the earlier era of Raymond Baxter and James Burke (which I also remember). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 8 17:20:55 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:20:55 -0700 Subject: Unusual software carriers. In-Reply-To: <100820082116.22926.48ED233B000499450000598E22007347489DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <100820082116.22926.48ED233B000499450000598E22007347489DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: I worked with a guy who had one of those. He was a rather fidgety individual, so it always took him several tries to get it right. :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of feldman.r at comcast.net [feldman.r at comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 2:16 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Unusual software carriers. >Message: 12 >Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 01:00:44 +0100 >From: "Pete Edwards" >Subject: Re: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic > Computers ) >Does anyone else remember 'Tomorrow's World' in the UK transmitting software >via a flashing square in the bottom right of the TV picture? There was some >kind of photocell dongle that attached to the computer. Memory is vague - >did it plug into the tape input? I can't remember what the target system >was, possible several via the basic translater mentioned earlier in the >thread? No idea what the data rate was. >-- >Pete Edwards My son had a Timex Ironman watch that you programmed by holding it up to a computer screen that flashed the data to a sensor on the watch. It would not work on an LCD, only a CRT. Bob From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Oct 8 19:47:34 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:47:34 +0000 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? Message-ID: <20081009004734.GA5146@usap.gov> Hi, All, I'm sure many of us remember the "computer photo" craze of the late 1970s - go to a mall, get your photo taken by a computer, then buy one of a number of trinkets (calendars, coffee mugs, etc.) with your photo rendered by dot matrix... an old family friend even had one of those rigs - driven by an Ohio Scientific Challenger III (a machine I've long lusted after). There must be a way to simulate that look today - some sort of GIMP filter or web app or something. I've been googling around for "ASCII art" and "dot matrix photo", etc., and have found some interesting stuff (http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/07/27/ascii-art-1939/) but not what I'm looking for. Ultimately, I just want to take a snapshot of me and filter it to resemble that 1970s "computer photo" look. Any suggestions where to turn? Discussions of how it was done and how it could be done with vintage hardware now are interesting and probably on-topic, but not the goal of my question. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Oct-2008 at 00:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -67.5 F (-55.3 C) Windchill -105.5 F (-76.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.7 kts Grid 31 Barometer 667.8 mb (11092 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 8 20:09:59 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:09:59 -0600 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? In-Reply-To: <20081009004734.GA5146@usap.gov> References: <20081009004734.GA5146@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48ED59E7.8060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ultimately, I just want to take a snapshot of me and filter it to > resemble that 1970s "computer photo" look. Any suggestions where to > turn? Discussions of how it was done and how it could be done with > vintage hardware now are interesting and probably on-topic, but not > the goal of my question. > > All I can think of is line printer art instead. [1] A Ethan Nude Calendar 2009 comes to mind ... > Thanks, > > -ethan > > I don't think I have seen the 'computer photo' look. I suspect you if you find what you are looking for, you may have to use a real dot matrix printer, since as far as I can tell modern printers I don't think handle over strikes. 1) Don't worry ... I can afford real nude calendars now days, rather something printed on green bar. :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 8 20:17:03 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:17:03 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20081008150122.U57QX.1700541.root@webfep14> References: <20081008150122.U57QX.1700541.root@webfep14> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2008, at 4:01 PM, wrote: >>> There is an NEC "supercomputer" currently with no bids ($100 >>> starting) on Ebay (140272067125). I would hate to see it get >>> scrapped, but I am not in a position to buy it. There are not many >>> hits on the auction page, so I thought I would spread the word >>> here. Only a few hours left. >> >> I'm going to see if I can grab that. I'll be in that area with a >> truck in a few weeks. > > I live about 70 miles away from it. I _may_ be able to lend a hand. > Let me know what your plans are. I scored the SX-4B. Well, actually my (sorta-) boss did, on my behalf. He's in Oshkosh. I'll let you know how my travel plans shape up; I'm putting together a large trip involving two Sun E10Ks and two modern Sun big-iron boxen for work; I'll probably lump this machine in with that trip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Ahh, you voted for Bush? Port Charlotte, FL Happy now? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 8 20:51:55 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:51:55 -0700 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? Message-ID: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org> http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Oct 8 21:59:34 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 02:59:34 +0000 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? In-Reply-To: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org> References: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20081009025934.GC18482@usap.gov> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 06:51:55PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/ Thanks, Al. That's just the sort of thing I was looking for. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Oct-2008 at 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -66.8 F (-54.9 C) Windchill -106.7 F (-77.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.5 kts Grid 33 Barometer 668.0 mb (11084 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 8 22:01:03 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mona Lisa In-Reply-To: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org> References: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Does anyone here have the source code for the program (FORTRAN?) which produced the large Mona Lisa printout on the 1403? The one I remember had 3 or 4 printouts taped together. Have any of the card decks survived? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Oct 8 22:01:28 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 03:01:28 +0000 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? In-Reply-To: <48ED59E7.8060609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20081009004734.GA5146@usap.gov> <48ED59E7.8060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20081009030128.GD18482@usap.gov> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 07:09:59PM -0600, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Ultimately, I just want to take a snapshot of me and filter it to > >resemble that 1970s "computer photo" look. > > > All I can think of is line printer art instead. > [1] A Ethan Nude Calendar 2009 comes to mind ... Ah, no. > I don't think I have seen the 'computer photo' look. I suspect you > if you find what you are looking for, you may have to use a real > dot matrix printer, since as far as I can tell modern printers I don't > think handle over strikes. Postscript printers can certainly render letters on top of each other, and it's entirely possible to do all the overstrike rendering in RAM before emitting a JPG or a PNG that's easy to print. It looks like Al's suggestion of aa-lib and aview will do exactly what I'm after. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Oct-2008 at 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -66.8 F (-54.9 C) Windchill -106.7 F (-77.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.5 kts Grid 33 Barometer 668.0 mb (11084 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 22:08:13 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:08:13 -0500 Subject: Mona Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I remember reading it, and "Snoopy" A deck of FORMAT statements, with carriage control for mona lisa for the ovetyping (CR with no LF) > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:01:03 -0400 > From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Mona Lisa > > > Does anyone here have the source code for the program (FORTRAN?) which > produced the large Mona Lisa printout on the 1403? The one I remember had > 3 or 4 printouts taped together. Have any of the card decks survived? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 8 22:28:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 20:28:40 -0700 Subject: Mona Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org>, , Message-ID: <48ED17F8.10241.CCA7EB8@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2008 at 22:08, Randy Dawson wrote: > I remember reading it, and "Snoopy" > A deck of FORMAT statements, with carriage control for mona lisa for the ovetyping > (CR with no LF) I seem to remember that FORTRAN on many systems used the first character of a PRINT/WRITE statement as "carriage control". A "1" caused a page eject (actually a skip on channel 1 in the carriage control tape.) Similarly, other numbers caused skips to other channels--woe betide you if you forgot to put a perforation in each of the 12 channels--a skip in an unperfed channel would enpty a box of paper really quickly. A blank was the usual character for single- spaced output. You could also punch a tape so that a skip was executed over the perforation, but single-spaced output otherwise. "+" kept the paper from advancing, I believe. This is all from memory--I'd have to check to be sure. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Oct 8 23:03:21 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 04:03:21 +0000 Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: <48ED17F8.10241.CCA7EB8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48ED17F8.10241.CCA7EB8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081009040321.GA23855@usap.gov> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 08:28:40PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I seem to remember that FORTRAN on many systems used the first > character of a PRINT/WRITE statement as "carriage control". A "1" > caused a page eject (actually a skip on channel 1 in the carriage > control tape.) Similarly, other numbers caused skips to other > channels-- Yep. You could get very fancy with pre-printed form letters, but I only ever saw that done in textbook examples, not on a real printer. By the time I was playing around with such things, it was easier to just generate the entire letter on the computer rather than have the computer "fill in the blanks". I suspect in the days of the 1401 and friends, they didn't want to try to merge pre-formatted text with calculated values, addresses, etc., but once disk-based systems were common, mingling text and data was trivial. > woe betide you if you forgot to put a perforation in each > of the 12 channels--a skip in an unperfed channel would enpty a box > of paper really quickly. And 'channel 0' was always "unperfed" - it wasn't documented, but it _was_ a legal request (and you'll never see a hole in channel 0 since there's no wire for it). I heard tales of students who kept a "skip to channel 0" job handy (in the days of electronic, not punchcard job submission, so early 1980s, IIRC)... when they spotted an item (stack of cards, paper, disk pack!) sitting on top of one of the large printers, they'd submit the job to run the paper out intentionally, and, here's where the prank comes in, certain models of large printer would automatically open when the paper was out, spilling whatever was on top onto the floor. We had to emulate skip channels in COMBOARDs, since folks were submitting the same types of jobs they did with real printers via our HASP/3780 link, and expecting equivalent results to come back to their VAX. One of the (many) bugs I fixed was that if you submitted a job with a "skip to channel 0", our product's master control process would appear to hang. What was really happening was that the process was writing an infinite amount of blank lines to disk, i.e., "emptying" the box of "paper". No customer ever waited around long enough to fill their disk, so they'd kill the process and call us with a bug report. The call that solved it for us was that a student at some University kept submitting his job (since it never ran to completion) often enough that the sysops caught him at it and were able to examine the student's code to see what he was doing. Everyone, but the student of course, "knew" that you "can't" skip to channel 0 since it doesn't exist, but with no error message to tell you you "can't" do it, you'd never know (until perhaps after a real box of paper was spooled into the output tray). The bugfix was rather easy - we treated a "skip to channel 0" as a "skip to channel 1", which was by convention, a form-feed (though with our product as with a real printer, it was possible to assign that to another line on the page). I presume after a certain point in time, real printers did much the same thing. > A blank was the usual character for single- > spaced output. You could also punch a tape so that a skip was > executed over the perforation, but single-spaced output otherwise. Not sure about that - I've never punched a real forms control tape. > "+" kept the paper from advancing, I believe. This is all from > memory--I'd have to check to be sure. That sounds familiar from the one FORTRAN class I took. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Oct-2008 at 03:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.5 F (-57.5 C) Windchill -97.5 F (-72.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.4 kts Grid 49 Barometer 668.4 mb (11069 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From drb at msu.edu Wed Oct 8 23:24:31 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 00:24:31 -0400 Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 09 Oct 2008 04:03:21 -0000.) <20081009040321.GA23855@usap.gov> References: <20081009040321.GA23855@usap.gov> <48ED17F8.10241.CCA7EB8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200810090424.m994OVi6008550@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > A blank was the usual character for single- spaced output. You could > > also punch a tape so that a skip was executed over the perforation, > > but single-spaced output otherwise. > Not sure about that - I've never punched a real forms control tape. > > > "+" kept the paper from advancing, I believe. This is all from > > memory--I'd have to check to be sure. On the IBM, CDC and Prime systems I worked with, blank to single space, 0 to double space, + to overstrike, - to triple space. (Prime even had a variant they called "COBOL carriage control" in which the spooler inspected the leading _two_ columns for such characters.) MSU's SCOPE/HUSTLER installation assigned some channel, I don't recall which, to land just above the end of the page. They then used this to set up the lines of *** that were characteristic of banner pages, so that they spanned across the perf, making it easier for Ops to burst the listings. For some reason, the ** characters on their print chains were always mushy. :) Actually, they also sometimes printed dayfile output at the right side of the page, allegedly to even the wear on the "chain", though I suppose that would indicate that the printers weren't really "chain" printers. De From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 8 23:59:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:59:23 -0700 Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: <200810090424.m994OVi6008550@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20081009040321.GA23855@usap.gov>, <200810090424.m994OVi6008550@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <48ED2D3B.29211.D1D8B0E@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2008 at 0:24, Dennis Boone wrote: > MSU's SCOPE/HUSTLER installation assigned some channel, I don't recall > which, to land just above the end of the page. They then used this to > set up the lines of *** that were characteristic of banner pages, so > that they spanned across the perf, making it easier for Ops to burst the > listings. For some reason, the ** characters on their print chains were > always mushy. :) Standard for SCOPE (at least at CDC) was usually "M" or "=" (may have been channel 9 on the tape, but I'm not certain), but I'm sure it could be changed by the installation. Better to use an alpha character, though--there were more of them on the print train than the special characters. On the CDC in-house systems, it was the "0" that got fuzzy fastest, but then we were always printing dumps. You got so you could hear the distinctive pattern of the burst pages almost subconsciously--the job ahead of you could be printing a box- length job and you could be on the other side of the room talking to someone and still know that a new output job had started--even with the printer cover closed. The 512 train printer sounded like a screaming mimi; the 501 drum printers sounded like a muffled machine gun. Computer rooms could be very noisy places. Some funny words just came into my head in connection with printers: SPIM, SKIP, SKAP, SPAP. Can't remember the system or language they were associated with--although I'm certain it wasn't CDC. Cheers, Chuck From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 9 00:12:49 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:12:49 -0400 Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:59:23 PDT.) <48ED2D3B.29211.D1D8B0E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48ED2D3B.29211.D1D8B0E@cclist.sydex.com> <20081009040321.GA23855@usap.gov>, <200810090424.m994OVi6008550@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200810090512.m995CoSG009742@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Some funny words just came into my head in connection with printers: > SPIM, SKIP, SKAP, SPAP. Can't remember the system or language they > were associated with--although I'm certain it wasn't CDC. Sure sound like they'd fit in with things like WEOX. You sure they weren't COMPASS- or FTN5-related? De From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 9 00:28:12 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:28:12 -0700 Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: <200810090512.m995CoSG009742@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <48ED2D3B.29211.D1D8B0E@cclist.sydex.com>, <200810090512.m995CoSG009742@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <48ED33FC.14227.D37EF41@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2008 at 1:12, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Some funny words just came into my head in connection with printers: > > SPIM, SKIP, SKAP, SPAP. Can't remember the system or language they > > were associated with--although I'm certain it wasn't CDC. No, I don't think so. Probably IBM--maybe 1620 SPS II printer mnemonics? Cheers, Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 9 01:21:02 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:21:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay Message-ID: <25097.213.169.196.228.1223533262.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > At 06:24 AM 10/8/2008, William Maddox wrote: >>This isn't my auction, and I don't know the seller. This thing >>is totally over the top, however, for lots of screens and buttons. >>Looks like the helmsman's station for a starship. It's in >>Mineapolis, and, as of this writing, its $9.99 with no bids. > > Dutch! > > http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/aesthedes.html > > - John > > > Haha, that's interesting, the middle & right monitor shows (at least for us here in NL) a very familiar logo, the one from Heineken Beer. Ed From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Oct 8 03:19:22 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:19:22 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) Message-ID: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA292555@ediserver.EDICONS.local> I remember taking the first Apple Lisa in the UK to be demonstrated on Tomorrows World. They had me in the studio as the program went out live. I sat on an unused display block about three feet off camera in case of problems. Presenters: Kiren Prendeville (photographic memory), Maggie Philbin (very nervous), Judith Hann( Nice lady - brought me a coffee!!) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 08 October 2008 08:22 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) On 08/10/2008 01:47, Andrew Burton wrote: > I remember Tomorrows World (and various presenters... Philippa > Forrester, Judith someone, Howard Stableford etc.) and having various > things demonstrated on it. Judith Hann. I don't remember Philippa Forrester being on it but I do remember Maggie Philbin. Perhaps the flashing-square software was in the earlier era of Raymond Baxter and James Burke (which I also remember). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jeffj at panix.com Wed Oct 8 03:52:41 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 04:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: any other Servo-8 owners? Message-ID: I revived my Servo-8 Z80 SBC (single board computer) for the NJ VCF (Vintage Computer Fest). Is anyone still running any, or have notes/materials? Anyone still running Z80 Ampro Littleboards? Circuit Cellar SB-180 ? -- Jeff Jonas jeff_jonas at att.net From jeffj at panix.com Wed Oct 8 05:25:36 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 06:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USENET via TV broadcast In-Reply-To: <200810080758.m987w9Z6044972@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810080758.m987w9Z6044972@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > In the early 80s, I think there were some very low-speed data stream > systems via teletext ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext ) > that could send the stream out RS-232. Is my memory correct? Perhaps. In the mid 80s, many technologies were attempted with similar (and often re-used) names 1) Reading the wiki entry, I was confusing Teletext with "Teletex" and perhaps something else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletex I remember entering a contest, suggesting how a computer interface to the TV subtitles could allow linking things together (such as capturing phone numbers, URL, etc). My TV /still/ has no PC interface: USB or otherwise. (I think Sega's Dreamcast system received games via the cable TV channel). I remember attending trade shows in the late 80s where "smart phones" (desk sets with tiny terminals) and Teletex were touted as "the next big thing". Compared to Sears/IBM Prodigy, perhaps, but nothing compared to the Internet with hypertext browsing, multimedia and other new formats. In a way, today's cellular phones have replaced the landline "smart phones" since they allow texting and internet access. But here in the USA, teletext was just a terminal standard for low-res graphics, and it still used a modem via phone lines. The surplus terminals were often from France (obvious from the keyboard) since it was wildly popular there. 2) I'm unsure if it used the same technology as today's DSL, but AT&T used to offer employees "CO-LAN": piggybacking a dedicated serial line over the existing phone line. 3) Google finds nothing, but I remember project "Stargate" where USENET newsgroups were transmitted during the vertical blanking interval of the TV broadcast. I forgot if that was via satellite or cable. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 15:04:02 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> silly question...what would a person do with it? Yes some people actually do look for utility in some of their old clunkers (and that one isn't that old I reckon). Could I...surf the web? Could I...play some games? Obviously the thing could emulate anything on the planet (I realize that's a possible response, so the sky is the limit). But what are the practical applications that this thing could be set to use from the get-go? --- On Wed, 10/8/08, Dave McGuire wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Cc: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 3:47 PM > On Oct 8, 2008, at 12:31 PM, wrote: > > There is an NEC "supercomputer" currently > with no bids ($100 > > starting) on Ebay (140272067125). I would hate to see > it get > > scrapped, but I am not in a position to buy it. There > are not many > > hits on the auction page, so I thought I would spread > the word > > here. Only a few hours left. > > I'm going to see if I can grab that. I'll be in > that area with a > truck in a few weeks. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 8 18:17:25 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:17:25 -0400 Subject: AmproLB+ SCSI... Message-ID: <0K8G007DG0O580H5@vms172071.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: AmproLB+ SCSI... > From: Gene Buckle > Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:40:26 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Allison wrote: > >> >> Jeff.. >> >> I have a AmproLB+ and a SB180 both in use. Both have hard drives on them via >> SCSI adapters. >> >I apologize for hijacking the thread. :) > >I've got an Ampro Littleboard with a SCSI interface on it (it uses the NCR >chip) and I was wondering what drive you're using with yours? I've been >unable to get mine to see any drives at all. Is there another board that >plugs into the 50 pin header required to make it work? No other board. Your suffering from PCism, you expect it to work like a PC and it will not. I'm using a 45MB fujitsu 3.5" scsi drive That was given to me and a modified version of the ampro scsi bios. The base SCSI software supports a limited number of drives and SCSI to MFM bridges that were available in the mid to late 80s. Those would be the Xebec and Adaptec and one seagate drive all in the 10-30mb size range. Add to that at the time the AmproLB+ software was written SCSI nee SASI was still somewhat developmental. Yes, I had to take the Ampro sources and rework them a bit for that drive and debug them. The basic code is online in one of the repository sites and it's well done so modifying it should be resonable. I'll admit it's been 17 years since I did it and it's running so I haven't looked at it in a long while. Hope that helps. Allison > >tnx! > >g. >-- >Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jrr at flippers.com Wed Oct 8 21:04:35 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:04:35 -0700 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? In-Reply-To: <48ED59E7.8060609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20081009004734.GA5146@usap.gov> <48ED59E7.8060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48ED66B3.8090603@flippers.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Ultimately, I just want to take a snapshot of me and filter it to >> resemble that 1970s "computer photo" look. Any suggestions where to >> turn? Discussions of how it was done and how it could be done with >> vintage hardware now are interesting and probably on-topic, but not >> the goal of my question. >> >> I have a large computer photobooth from the late 70s' buried in my showroom here in Vancouver, BC, it generates dot matrix pictures in four formats, regular, one a US dollar bill, and a couple of others...this uses a 15 inch printer and a Z80 CPU based system. B&W camera of course! Two part carbonless paper... John :-#)# > All I can think of is line printer art instead. > [1] A Ethan Nude Calendar 2009 comes to mind ... >> Thanks, >> >> -ethan >> >> > I don't think I have seen the 'computer photo' look. I suspect you > if you find what you are looking for, you may have to use a real > dot matrix printer, since as far as I can tell modern printers I don't > think handle over strikes. > > 1) Don't worry ... I can afford real nude calendars now days, > rather something printed on green bar. :) > > > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 9 01:56:48 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 02:56:48 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> On Oct 8, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Chris M wrote: > silly question...what would a person do with it? Yes some people > actually do look for utility in some of their old clunkers (and > that one isn't that old I reckon). Could I...surf the web? Could > I...play some games? Obviously the thing could emulate anything on > the planet (I realize that's a possible response, so the sky is the > limit). But what are the practical applications that this thing > could be set to use from the get-go? Surf the web or play games? No. Fortunately, I don't do either of those things. The SX-4B, like most supercomputers, is a math machine. It is very good at many types of tasks that are mathematically intensive. Image processing, fluid mechanics, weather simulation, cryptography, etc. There's a lot more to computers than such trivial wastes of time as surfing the web and playing games. ;) As many here know, I have a few Cray supercomputers. Like the SX-4B, they are math machines. As a specific example, I bought my first Cray system for about $12,000.00. I used that machine to develop and test image processing algorithms for a digital video surveillance system that I built. I made back that $12,000.00 on the first sale of that system. This SX-4B is quite a bit faster than that particular Cray. To be fair, I could've done that image processing work on my (very fast) SGI desktop workstation instead of the Cray, but each test run would've taken days rather than hours, and I'm a very impatient man. I am currently using another Cray system in a medical application that I can't talk about right now. (NDA) It is mathematically- intensive and suits the architecture well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 9 02:00:16 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > I am currently using another Cray system in a medical application > that I can't talk about right now. (NDA) It is mathematically- > intensive and suits the architecture well. Can you tell us about the Cray system you're using? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 9 02:13:08 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4 Message-ID: This is my periodic query for original install media for SunOS 4.1.4. I have a special affinity for the Sun IPX and I'd like to get mine working with SunOS. By the way, has anyone here successfully attached an LCD monitor to an older Sun? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 9 04:05:53 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:05:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Mona Lisa In-Reply-To: <48ED17F8.10241.CCA7EB8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org>, , <48ED17F8.10241.CCA7EB8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Oct 2008 at 22:08, Randy Dawson wrote: >> I remember reading it, and "Snoopy" >> A deck of FORMAT statements, with carriage control for mona lisa for the ovetyping >> (CR with no LF) > > I seem to remember that FORTRAN on many systems used the first > character of a PRINT/WRITE statement as "carriage control". A "1" > caused a page eject (actually a skip on channel 1 in the carriage > control tape.) Similarly, other numbers caused skips to other > channels--woe betide you if you forgot to put a perforation in each > of the 12 channels--a skip in an unperfed channel would enpty a box > of paper really quickly. A blank was the usual character for single- > spaced output. You could also punch a tape so that a skip was > executed over the perforation, but single-spaced output otherwise. We've put two Fortran demo programs for the IBM 1130 on our FTP server: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ibm1130/cards/FORTRAN/ One prints out a James Bond (JBOND), the other a Snoopy (SNOPY). Christian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 9 04:15:05 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 03:15:05 -0600 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:29:27 -0700. <48E63A57.8060509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <48E63A57.8060509 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Both of mine power up and beep what I think is an error code, but > nothing on the screen. I did some research. The full explanation of the power-on self-test is described in the separate 4114 Service Manual, but a shorter explanation of the error codes is in appendix B of the Operator's Manual: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 05:04:17 2008 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:04:17 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA292555@ediserver.EDICONS.local> References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA292555@ediserver.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <11c909eb0810090304q4ef6c152p120bd54068231ce1@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/8 Rod Smallwood > I remember taking the first Apple Lisa in the UK to be demonstrated on > Tomorrows World. > They had me in the studio as the program went out live. > I sat on an unused display block about three feet off camera in case of > problems. > > Presenters: Kiren Prendeville (photographic memory), Maggie Philbin > (very nervous), Judith Hann( Nice lady - brought me a coffee!!) > Hehe, I remember telling my 'O' Level Computer Studies teacher about that program the next day, trying to explain the idea of the mouse/GUI combo. His response? 'It'll never catch on' > > > > > -- > Pete Edwards > "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels > Bohr > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 9 05:25:37 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:25:37 +0100 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? In-Reply-To: <20081009004734.GA5146@usap.gov> References: <20081009004734.GA5146@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48EDDC21.3050800@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > There must be a way to simulate that look today - some sort of GIMP > filter or web app or something. I've been googling around for I'd start by dithering the image down to 2-colour, then increasing the image size so each pixel becomes about 8x8, then applying some sort of dot mask ;-) Maybe a bit of blur and noise to simulate paper grain, too. Gordon From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Oct 9 06:37:05 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 07:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, David Griffith wrote: > By the way, has anyone here successfully attached an LCD monitor to an > older Sun? I have an IBM Thinkvision L190 running on my older Sun systems. The systems are connected to a Lightwave Serverswitch 8200. The 8200 is then connected to a PC-style KVM with a Raritan APSSUN converter, so I can also use the monitor with several Intel boxes. The systems are an IPC, LX, SS20, Ultra 2 and Ultra 10. The systems are all configured for 1152x900x66. Everything works with the LCD monitor EXCEPT the Ultra 10. The on-board PGX almost works, but the screen blinks on and off every second or two. I can't get the Elite3D to sync at all. I have two more Suns to connect: a SS2 and a 3/60. I need to make a keyboard adapter cable for the 3/60. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 07:09:41 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:09:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? In-Reply-To: <48EDDC21.3050800@gjcp.net> References: <20081009004734.GA5146@usap.gov> <48EDDC21.3050800@gjcp.net> Message-ID: This all takes me back to the 70's, we made the things, ours were hardware with a modded chrset in the printer, we used comparaters for the a-d, 16k dynamic rams and a french printer made by Logabax (huge lump) and Hitachi camera with the line scan fiddled to get the aspect ratio right. Quite a few went to Blackpool. Dave Caroline (archivist) From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Oct 9 08:26:32 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 09:26:32 -0400 Subject: looking for racks Message-ID: <48EE0688.1090508@hawkmountain.net> A friend is looking for 6 computer racks. He is looking for ones with "high ventilation (mesh doors, etc) and locking is a requirement". Anyone got anything like this in the MA/RI/NH area (or possibly local enough that can ship (at an affordable rate) via freight) ? If you don't have 6 then let me know what you have, and I'll pass it along with your contact info. -- Curt From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 9 08:30:19 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:30:19 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200810090930.20035.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > ? ?I'm going to see if I can grab that. ?I'll be in > that area with a ? > truck in a few weeks. Damn. I wish I saw this sooner, or could justify picking this up. Why do you get to have all the fun stuff? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 9 08:34:31 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:34:31 -0500 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? In-Reply-To: <20081009025934.GC18482@usap.gov> References: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org> <20081009025934.GC18482@usap.gov> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081009083006.072a22d0@mail.threedee.com> At 09:59 PM 10/8/2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 06:51:55PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/ > >Thanks, Al. That's just the sort of thing I was looking for. I don't think that does overstrike, does it? Illustrator will handle overstrike as well as let you choose a suitable font. You could print from there, or if you really wanted a bitmap, then PhotoShop will rasterize Illustrator at whatever resolution for printing. A long time ago, I wrote a simple filter to take old overstrike ASCII art and convert to .AI format: http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/ For that matter, certainly some of the old 70s picture booths used dot-matrix as dots and not fonts, and not teletype or Diablo, so they generally had easy-to-compute fixed dithering to make gray. - John From feedle at feedle.net Thu Oct 9 08:59:51 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 06:59:51 -0700 Subject: USENET via TV broadcast In-Reply-To: References: <200810080758.m987w9Z6044972@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <15DBA9EE-C629-4B3C-8456-B841EF9792CA@feedle.net> On Oct 8, 2008, at 3:25 AM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > 3) Google finds nothing, but I remember project "Stargate" > where USENET newsgroups were transmitted > during the vertical blanking interval of the TV broadcast. > I forgot if that was via satellite or cable. Technically, either one. I had this service at one point, and all that mattered is you received (if I remember properly, but it might have been another Turner channel) WTBS somehow. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 9 09:10:19 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:10:19 +0100 Subject: Stuff I need rid of, ASAP... Message-ID: <48EE10CB.1070606@gjcp.net> DEC LA-36 and some spare ribbons Tektronix Phaser 560 colour laser printer Two not-entirely-working Superbrains a Sanyo CP/M-86 machine (MBC-4050? possibly) In Glasgow I can hang onto them for a couple of days, but not much more than that. Gordon From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Oct 9 10:43:23 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:43:23 -0500 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200810091350.m99DoLTZ066201@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810091350.m99DoLTZ066201@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 8:50 -0500 10/9/08, Chris M wrote: >But what are the practical applications that this thing could be set >to use from the get-go? 1.) Wrong group to ask that question. 1.5 tonne paperweights are OK here, if the kewl factor is high enough. One that says "supercomputer" on the side is OK on kewl factor. (But it sounds like Dave actually has an answer, which is even better.) 2.) http://www.distributed.net/ Drool! (I still want to get a Mac OS 6.0.8 client going so I can put my Mac Plus on the stats chart...then on to the Color Computer and NitrOS9! :-) ) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 9 12:41:43 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:41:43 -0700 Subject: Mona Lisa Message-ID: <48EE4257.50108@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone here have the source code for the program (FORTRAN?) which > produced the large Mona Lisa printout on the 1403? I may have it on a couple of tapes with line printer art that have been given to me. The one I'm looking for is the one with Spock holding a model of the Enterprise... From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 9 13:33:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:33:58 -0600 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:21:02 +0200. <25097.213.169.196.228.1223533262.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Well, I had to put out the grand sum of $10 to get this puppy. I'm surprised noone else here bid on it. Now to figure out how to get it transported... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 9 13:38:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:38:58 -0600 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:04:02 -0700. <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <874378.89523.qm at web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > But what are the practical applications that this thing > could be set to use from the get-go? SETI @ Home :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Oct 9 13:48:06 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:48:06 +0000 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <25097.213.169.196.228.1223533262.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20081009184806.GA32500@usap.gov> On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 12:33:58PM -0600, Richard wrote: > Well, I had to put out the grand sum of $10 to get this puppy. I'm > surprised noone else here bid on it. Now to figure out how to get it > transported... I would have loved to have bid on it, but there's no way I could collect it for months. If it had gone up for sale 14 months ago when I was in Madison, WI, I might have tried. It looks really cool, and with eight 68000 processors, it's right up my alley, interest-wise (I still have all the 68K diagnostic gear we used to build COMBOARDs between 1983 and 1993 - makes working on Amigas a snap ;-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Oct-2008 at 18:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.1 F (-56.7 C) Windchill -111.3 F (-79.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.9 kts Grid 18 Barometer 671.8 mb (10939 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Oct 9 13:52:02 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:52:02 +0100 Subject: Mona Lisa In-Reply-To: <200810091350.m99DoLTn066201@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810091350.m99DoLTn066201@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <491C4174-B556-4EC7-B1C3-49C4DD5F979E@microspot.co.uk> > From: Mike Loewen > > > Does anyone here have the source code for the program (FORTRAN?) > which > produced the large Mona Lisa printout on the 1403? The one I > remember had > 3 or 4 printouts taped together. Have any of the card decks survived? I don't have it in Fortran nor for IBM but I think I have a deck of cards for my ICT 1301 which produces a two or three page printout, printing across the perforations. At the moment, I don't have a 100% working card reader and I'm in the process of selling my spare 1301 so all my 'spare' time is used up trying to put back together a 5 ton jig- saw I dismantled over 30 years ago. At least I have an assembled one for reference but I keep finding differences between the two machines, one being the first one to leave the factory and the other probably being one of the last. I hope to make all my 1301 software, including the Mona Lisa, Snoopy, the lady on a stool etc available online sometime together with some of my many manuals and a simulator which will run on a Mac. Will need to find someone to host the archive in perpituity, maybe BitSavers would be willing to do it, but I haven't got the data off the Ampex ten track tapes yet. Roger Holmes ICT 1301 S/N 006 and a cut and shut of 075 and 159. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 9 08:55:43 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:55:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: <20081009040321.GA23855@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 9, 8 04:03:21 am Message-ID: > I heard tales of students who kept a "skip to channel 0" job handy > (in the days of electronic, not punchcard job submission, so early > 1980s, IIRC)... when they spotted an item (stack of cards, paper, > disk pack!) sitting on top of one of the large printers, they'd > submit the job to run the paper out intentionally, and, here's > where the prank comes in, certain models of large printer would > automatically open when the paper was out, spilling whatever was > on top onto the floor. In my undergraduate days, I remember the time somebody (not me, I hasten to add) put a plastic cup of coffee on top of such a line printer. And by chance (there was no 'prank job' involved AFAIK) the printer ran out of paper. The result is obvious, shall we just say the printer, the user concerned, at least 2 innocent bystanders and a lot of printout got soaked... -tony From tsw-cc at johana.com Thu Oct 9 15:52:23 2008 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: <200810091604.m99G3VU2068002@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <649120.77589.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On 08 Oct 2008 22:28:12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 9 Oct 2008 at 1:12, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> > Some funny words just came into my head in >connection with printers: >> > SPIM, SKIP, SKAP, SPAP. Can't remember the system >or language they >> > were associated with--although I'm certain it wasn't >CDC. > >No, I don't think so. Probably IBM--maybe 1620 SPS II >printer >mnemonics? > >Cheers, >Chuck > Why right you are. For those of you who aren't reading at home, these mnemonics mean: SPIM: Space immediate (1-3 lines) SKIP: Skip immediate (to carriage control channel) SKAP: Skip after printing (carriage control) SPAP: Space after printing (1-3 lines) All of these were control instructions that referenced the printer (unit #9). The carriage control tape was a standard 12 channel one (IBM used them on LOTS of printers like 407's and 1403's). You could access any one of the 12 channels. The 1620 had two indicators for "summary line" (channel 9) and "end of printable page" (channel 12), which if you have a hard copy impact printer are probably still there. Yes, if you skipped to a channel that WASN'T punched, you fed lots of paper, which is why (if you were smart) you punched the unused channels on the same line as the "end of paper" channel (12). Oh, standard Fortran: blank, single space; 1, top of form; 0, double space; +, overprint (not supported everywhere). Feel free to consult your friendly Unix man page for the program 'asa' for further reference. One of these days I'll dig out the computer pic I made back in the late 60's using a video camera connected to an 1130. 16 levels of gray, and 200x160 or so resolution. Cool for the day! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 9 16:10:31 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 21:10:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USENET via TV broadcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <297198.59372.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I don't know whether the Dreamcast could do that, but certainly Sega did have something called Sega TV that would allow users to download and play videogames. It was available in the US only, afaik, and I thought it was around during the mid 90's. Since the Dreamcast had a built-in modem, or optional BBA (broadband adaptor) for US users, you may be correct. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 8/10/08, Jeff Jonas wrote: From: Jeff Jonas Subject: Re: USENET via TV broadcast To: "cctech" Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 11:25 AM My TV /still/ has no PC interface: USB or otherwise. (I think Sega's Dreamcast system received games via the cable TV channel). From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 9 16:15:09 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:15:09 -0700 Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: <649120.77589.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200810091604.m99G3VU2068002@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <649120.77589.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48EE11ED.23888.109AE3D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2008 at 13:52, Tom Watson wrote: > Why right you are. For those of you who aren't reading at home, these > mnemonics mean: > > SPIM: Space immediate (1-3 lines) > SKIP: Skip immediate (to carriage control channel) > SKAP: Skip after printing (carriage control) > SPAP: Space after printing (1-3 lines) Thanks--they're not in the "Monitor II-D" reference that I have on my bookshelf (the only 1620 book I have left), so it's remarkable that they popped into my conscious. But then, I haven't forgotten most of the numeric values for 1620 opcodes, either. Do enough of anything and it'll stick with you. Cheers, Chuck > > All of these were control instructions that referenced the printer (unit #9). The carriage control tape was a standard 12 channel one (IBM used them on LOTS of printers like 407's and 1403's). You could access any one of the 12 channels. The 1620 had two indicators for "summary line" (channel 9) and "end of printable page" (channel 12), which if you have a hard copy impact printer are probably still there. Yes, if you skipped to a channel that WASN'T punched, you fed lots of paper, which is why (if you were smart) you punched the unused channels on the same line as the "end of paper" channel (12). > > Oh, standard Fortran: blank, single space; 1, top of form; 0, double space; +, overprint (not supported everywhere). Feel free to consult your friendly Unix man page for the program 'asa' for further reference. > > One of these days I'll dig out the computer pic I made back in the late 60's using a video camera connected to an 1130. 16 levels of gray, and 200x160 or so resolution. Cool for the day! > > > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 16:58:22 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:58:22 -0500 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <25097.213.169.196.228.1223533262.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51ea77730810091458q508cb567k73c90928224dd266@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Richard wrote: > Well, I had to put out the grand sum of $10 to get this puppy. I'm > surprised noone else here bid on it. Now to figure out how to get it > transported... Well, your last sentence answers your second. That, and the unhelpfulness of the seller made me pass it up. Good to see someone will preserve it, tough. I want pics! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 9 18:27:42 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:27:42 -0600 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:58:22 -0500. <51ea77730810091458q508cb567k73c90928224dd266@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730810091458q508cb567k73c90928224dd266 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > Well, I had to put out the grand sum of $10 to get this puppy. I'm > > surprised noone else here bid on it. Now to figure out how to get it > > transported... > > Well, your last sentence answers your second. That, and the > unhelpfulness of the seller made me pass it up. Good to see someone > will preserve it, though. Unhelpfulness of the seller? They posted lots of questions that were asked and considering that I was the only bidder, that seems like it was more trouble than it was worth. I think what happened is that lots of us (like me) only saw this when there was 22 hrs left on the auction so he got a slew of questions on the last day. > I want pics! I want a camera! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 9 18:59:33 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:59:33 -0400 Subject: Cisco Switches/Routers (was: some odds and ends to get rid of) In-Reply-To: <2F7A9CF4-6438-44C7-93D0-7ED557012C63@ozpass.co.uk> References: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> <2F7A9CF4-6438-44C7-93D0-7ED557012C63@ozpass.co.uk> Message-ID: <862C4CA3-C1D6-43A4-A311-160AC56192F5@neurotica.com> On Oct 8, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Austin Pass wrote: > All of the secondary school networks I've been installing recently > have been based around dual 6509's with 720 Supervisor Fabrics, 8 x > 10-Gig etherchannels between them and dual 10-Gig links to stacked > 3750's. Technically switches, of course, but the lines betwixt > routers and switches are seriously blurred at the high end (esp. > with the Distributed Forwarding Cards). In a secondary school, for chrissakes! These schools are better- equipped than most companies. > I've only been working with Cisco "big iron" for the last 3 years > or so, but I've never been impressed with the build quality on the > 6500's. Sure, the power supplies are hewn from solid basalt (or at > least weigh like they do) but the little arms that hold the port > cards in are unbelievably puny and naff. Were they always like > this or have Cisco succumbed to the declining-quality bug like so > much of the industry since the early 90's? They're definitely dropping in build quality. It started much later with Cisco, since maybe 2000-2001 or so. Their last "battleship quality" switches are the 5500 series. They are built extremely well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Ahh, you voted for Bush? Port Charlotte, FL Happy now? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 9 19:00:44 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:00:44 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> I am currently using another Cray system in a medical application >> that I can't talk about right now. (NDA) It is mathematically- >> intensive and suits the architecture well. > > Can you tell us about the Cray system you're using? The code is being developed on a (slow but cheap to run) YMP-EL, and it will eventually run on a (fast but expensive to run) SV-1. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Ahh, you voted for Bush? Port Charlotte, FL Happy now? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 9 19:42:24 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:42:24 -0400 Subject: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:13 AM, David Griffith wrote: > This is my periodic query for original install media for SunOS > 4.1.4. I > have a special affinity for the Sun IPX and I'd like to get mine > working > with SunOS. I have 4.1.4. I'm at the girlfriend's place now, but I'll rummage for the CDROM when I return home later tonight and see if I can make an image of it. Please ping me off-list in a day or two if you don't hear back from me. I share your IPX affinity. I had one on my desk for a very long time, when they were state of the art. Wonderful little machine. And amazingly zippy, from a time when software wasn't so poorly- written and bloated. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Ahh, you voted for Bush? Port Charlotte, FL Happy now? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 22:26:15 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:26:15 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > The code is being developed on a (slow but cheap to run) YMP-EL, and it > will eventually run on a (fast but expensive to run) SV-1. Who is actually still using an SV1 in production? It is a ten year old super. -- Will From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Oct 9 22:31:14 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 03:31:14 +0000 Subject: Anyone know of a 1970s-style dot matrix "computer photo" generator/converter? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081009083006.072a22d0@mail.threedee.com> References: <48ED63BB.3090108@bitsavers.org> <20081009025934.GC18482@usap.gov> <6.2.3.4.2.20081009083006.072a22d0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <20081010033114.GB9328@usap.gov> On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 08:34:31AM -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 09:59 PM 10/8/2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 06:51:55PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > >> http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/ > > > >Thanks, Al. That's just the sort of thing I was looking for. > > I don't think that does overstrike, does it? No, but for what I was trying to do, it does the job nicely. I'm more going for the general effect than 100% authenticity to 1970s methods. I now have a nice ASCIIfied version of myself, which was the point of it all. I only ever had one overstrike ASCII art file back in the day, anyway - the really detailed picture of a cat. I have that file somewhere on an OS/8 floppy, and probably on an RL01 pack, but I'm pretty sure that particular file is not "lost". It was one of the more interesting things I ever printed out on my LA-180. I think everything else I had was simple (or not so simple) one-glyph-per-cell ASCII art. > Illustrator will handle overstrike as well as let you choose a suitable > font. You could print from there, or if you really wanted a bitmap, > then PhotoShop will rasterize Illustrator at whatever resolution for printing. I don't have those applications at hand, so unfortunately, that path won't work so well for me. > A long time ago, I wrote a simple filter to take old overstrike ASCII > art and convert to .AI format: http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/ I'll have to check it out when the satellite comes up next. > For that matter, certainly some of the old 70s picture booths used > dot-matrix as dots and not fonts, and not teletype or Diablo, so they > generally had easy-to-compute fixed dithering to make gray. Thinking of that OSI rig owned by that family friend, ISTR it was dithered dot-matrix, but the visual effect was similar to machine-crafted ASCIIfication - up close - chaotic jumble, far away - a smooth looking greyscale. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Oct-2008 at 03:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -67.9 F (-55.5 C) Windchill -109.4 F (-78.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.7 kts Grid 16 Barometer 673.2 mb (10886 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Oct 9 23:22:41 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:22:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for WD2010 chip Message-ID: <48EED891.4060009@hawkmountain.net> Anyone have one available ? -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Oct 9 23:24:36 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:24:36 -0400 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software Message-ID: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... -- Curt From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 10 00:27:23 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, William Donzelli wrote: > > The code is being developed on a (slow but cheap to run) YMP-EL, and it > > will eventually run on a (fast but expensive to run) SV-1. > > Who is actually still using an SV1 in production? It is a ten year old super. Along those lines, it doesn't appear that Cray has a vector machine in its current lineup. Am I wrong or does nobody make vector supers anymore? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 10 00:28:16 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:28:16 -0400 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 10 October 2008 00:24, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, > tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... > > -- Curt :-) Having fun with the new toy? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 9 09:18:01 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810091423.KAA29738@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > This is my periodic query for original install media for SunOS 4.1.4. > I have a special affinity for the Sun IPX and I'd like to get mine > working with SunOS. I dunno about original media, and I'm not sure exactly which version, but I think I have some pre-Solaris SunOS around. Lemme rummage some. > By the way, has anyone here successfully attached an LCD monitor to > an older Sun? FSVO "older", yes (actually, to be precise, I don't know whether they're LCD or something else - TFT, plasma, I don't know all the names). Flatscreens are the normal displays for my SS20 at home (cg14 and cg6) and the LXes at work and at my gf's place (cg6s). I've never had a problem connecting them to Sun framebuffers, thoguh I'm not sure I've ever tried a bw2. (13W3-using Sun framebuffers, that is. I wouldn't expect them to work with the DE9-using Sun-2/Sun-3 era stuff, and 3BNC/4BNC/5BNC stuff is a definite maybe, depending on sync.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 17:37:46 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> OI I know what supercomputers are used for. The essence of my question is are these things at all user friendly? What familiar apps COULD be run if I was disposed to want to? --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Dave McGuire wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 2:56 AM > On Oct 8, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Chris M wrote: > > silly question...what would a person do with it? Yes > some people > > actually do look for utility in some of their old > clunkers (and > > that one isn't that old I reckon). Could I...surf > the web? Could > > I...play some games? Obviously the thing could emulate > anything on > > the planet (I realize that's a possible response, > so the sky is the > > limit). But what are the practical applications that > this thing > > could be set to use from the get-go? > > Surf the web or play games? No. Fortunately, I > don't do either > of those things. > > The SX-4B, like most supercomputers, is a math machine. > It is > very good at many types of tasks that are mathematically > intensive. > Image processing, fluid mechanics, weather simulation, > cryptography, > etc. There's a lot more to computers than such trivial > wastes of > time as surfing the web and playing games. ;) > > As many here know, I have a few Cray supercomputers. > Like the > SX-4B, they are math machines. As a specific example, I > bought my > first Cray system for about $12,000.00. I used that > machine to > develop and test image processing algorithms for a digital > video > surveillance system that I built. I made back that > $12,000.00 on the > first sale of that system. This SX-4B is quite a bit > faster than > that particular Cray. > > To be fair, I could've done that image processing > work on my (very > fast) SGI desktop workstation instead of the Cray, but each > test run > would've taken days rather than hours, and I'm a > very impatient man. > > I am currently using another Cray system in a medical > application > that I can't talk about right now. (NDA) It is > mathematically- > intensive and suits the architecture well. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 10 00:40:39 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:40:39 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2008, at 6:37 PM, Chris M wrote: > OI I know what supercomputers are used for. Ahh. That's surprising, given your question. ;) > The essence of my question is are these things at all user friendly? It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in existence. At least for even moderately technical people. > What familiar apps COULD be run if I was disposed to want to? Familiar apps? Well, pretty much anything that runs under UNIX, possibly given some porting effort. Hell, my friend James Sharp ported Apache httpd to my Cray J90 and ran a web server on it. As far as "familiar apps", though...it's not exactly the type of equipment you'd want to run Firefox on. But surely you have a modern computer (or even a not-so-modern one, if you're still running Windows) for stuff like that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 10 00:52:13 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:52:13 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:26 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The code is being developed on a (slow but cheap to run) YMP-EL, >> and it >> will eventually run on a (fast but expensive to run) SV-1. > > Who is actually still using an SV1 in production? It is a ten year > old super. Eight, actually. My employer is about to be, and there are quite a few others. With design cycles measured in years rather than weeks, the supercomputer world doesn't consider things "obsolete" as quickly as the PC world. Indeed, the code is being developed on a 25- year-old super, but admittedly only because it's available and compatible. Besides, SV1ex machines are still pretty pricey, and T90s are pretty difficult to find, and WAY out of any reasonable price range. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 10 00:52:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:52:34 -0700 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <48EE8B32.25747.1274977D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2008 at 22:27, David Griffith wrote: > Along those lines, it doesn't appear that Cray has a vector machine in its > current lineup. Am I wrong or does nobody make vector supers anymore? Sure they do--they're called graphics chips now. :) Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 10 01:09:27 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 10 October 2008 00:24, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, > > tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... > > > > -- Curt > > :-) > > Having fun with the new toy? I'd like to get a hold of these images as well. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 10 01:43:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:43:01 -0700 Subject: Looking for WD2010 chip In-Reply-To: <48EED891.4060009@hawkmountain.net> References: <48EED891.4060009@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <48EE9705.23393.12A2C7B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Oct 2008 at 0:22, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Anyone have one available ? I'll look--what package did you have in mind? Cheers, Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 10 01:58:32 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:58:32 -0500 Subject: Beat the super was (RE: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave, I am sure you guys are really smart, but may have overlooked something or want to listen. I will make a guess, that this is gene sequencing related. Data small, search field large, and iterations many. Have you considered a FPGA for this? Tell me what you are doing, I might be able to help or present some hardware speedup alternatives. Randy > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:52:13 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay > > On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:26 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> The code is being developed on a (slow but cheap to run) YMP-EL, > >> and it > >> will eventually run on a (fast but expensive to run) SV-1. > > > > Who is actually still using an SV1 in production? It is a ten year > > old super. > > Eight, actually. My employer is about to be, and there are quite > a few others. With design cycles measured in years rather than > weeks, the supercomputer world doesn't consider things "obsolete" as > quickly as the PC world. Indeed, the code is being developed on a 25- > year-old super, but admittedly only because it's available and > compatible. > > Besides, SV1ex machines are still pretty pricey, and T90s are > pretty difficult to find, and WAY out of any reasonable price range. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 10 01:58:46 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:58:46 -0400 Subject: Did anyone archive the old Everex FTP before it went down? Message-ID: <2BD235D8E53D4A4DBB56FF087D79655E@game> In one of the forums I belong to someone is looking for the EISA configuration files and drivers for a Everex Step VL/E type 18210 EISA motherboard (EISA config. utility !EVX1698.CFG). I figured that company was popular in the early 90's and somebody might have mirrored the FTP here (we are all packrats I would think). Thanks TZ P.S. I wish archive.org would do FTP sites as well as HTTP. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 10 02:54:28 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:54:28 +0200 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. Verzonden: vrijdag 10 oktober 2008 6:25 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... -- Curt Al Kossow wrote on 10-5-2008 : UNIX PC 3.51 development floppies are now up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/unixPC with the exception of the virtual device interface disk, which was completely unreadable (seems odd, since all the rest read perfectly) Am I missing something ? -Rik From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Oct 10 03:32:16 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:32:16 +0100 Subject: Cisco Switches/Routers In-Reply-To: <862C4CA3-C1D6-43A4-A311-160AC56192F5@neurotica.com> References: <200810072227.31205.pat@computer-refuge.org> <2F7A9CF4-6438-44C7-93D0-7ED557012C63@ozpass.co.uk> <862C4CA3-C1D6-43A4-A311-160AC56192F5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48EF1310.4090205@gjcp.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > They're definitely dropping in build quality. It started much later > with Cisco, since maybe 2000-2001 or so. Their last "battleship > quality" switches are the 5500 series. They are built extremely well. A company I worked for a couple of years ago dropped Cisco and went for a Chinese company called Level One. They weren't exactly brilliant, but they were a quarter of the price. Oh, and crucially - and this is important for unattended sites - we didn't have any unexplained PSU fires (yes, fires) like we had with Cisco. Gordon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 07:50:34 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:50:34 -0500 Subject: USENET via TV broadcast In-Reply-To: References: <200810080758.m987w9Z6044972@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48EF4F9A.2070902@gmail.com> Jeff Jonas wrote: > My TV /still/ has no PC interface: USB or otherwise. > (I think Sega's Dreamcast system > received games via the cable TV channel). Hmm, I've seen lots of Nintendo 64 consoles in hotels, which presumably receive data via the hotel's cable TV system. > I remember attending trade shows in the late 80s where > "smart phones" (desk sets with tiny terminals) > and Teletex were touted as "the next big thing". > Compared to Sears/IBM Prodigy, perhaps, > but nothing compared to the Internet with hypertext browsing, > multimedia and other new formats. But then in Europe the 'net didn't take off quite as quickly as it did in the US - viewdata type services were very popular across Europe at one point in time (and I guess they did the job pretty well - it just eventually became cheaper to use the 'net for data services). > But here in the USA, teletext was just a terminal standard > for low-res graphics, and it still used a modem via phone lines. > The surplus terminals were often from France > (obvious from the keyboard) since it was wildly popular there. Minitel was the French system, wasn't it? cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 08:00:07 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:00:07 -0500 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48EF51D7.3070106@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > Unhelpfulness of the seller? They posted lots of questions that were > asked and considering that I was the only bidder, that seems like it > was more trouble than it was worth. I did get a little worried when they couldn't tell me if there was installation media there or not - if the hard disk is toast then without it it's just a big (albeit cool-looking) boat-anchor, unless the Dutch crowd with one of these can supply media copies or a hard disk image. But that's probably just my natural caution against using ebay as a selling medium - I tend to always feel like I'm going to get screwed :-) >> I want pics! > > I want a camera! :-) Surely you have an SGI with an Indycam knocking around? ;) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 08:09:16 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:09:16 -0500 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48EF53FC.1000201@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > As far as "familiar apps", though...it's not exactly the type of > equipment you'd want to run Firefox on. On one hand I suspect the numbers don't make sense in terms of "familiar app speed" vs. power required to run the machine. On the other hand, vintage computer collectors don't generally run their hardware for efficiency reasons anyway :-) Having said that, running "familiar apps" on a supercomputer seems a bit like only ever running console apps on a graphics-laden SGI; it's only using a fraction of the machine's capability, which seems a bit pointless. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Oct 10 08:38:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:38:10 +0000 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:40:39AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 9, 2008, at 6:37 PM, Chris M wrote: > >OI I know what supercomputers are used for. > > Ahh. That's surprising, given your question. ;) > > >The essence of my question is are these things at all user friendly? > > It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in > existence. At least for even moderately technical people. There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people (cf Unix Hater's Handbook). Personally, I fell in love with UNIX from the first day I ran across it in 1984, but the 36-bit crowd was, um, resistant. > >What familiar apps COULD be run if I was disposed to want to? > > Familiar apps? Well, pretty much anything that runs under UNIX, > possibly given some porting effort. Hell, my friend James Sharp > ported Apache httpd to my Cray J90 and ran a web server on it. Nice. > As far as "familiar apps", though...it's not exactly the type of > equipment you'd want to run Firefox on. But surely you have a modern > computer (or even a not-so-modern one, if you're still running > Windows) for stuff like that. If I had a Cray at my disposal, I'd probably give LCDproc a try, but that's strictly out of of the same perverse sense that makes someone want to run a webserver on a platform that isn't exactly built for "mudane" sorts of apps. I really don't know what I'd do to "open up the throttle" on a Cray. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Oct-2008 at 13:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.9 F (-54.4 C) Windchill -104.2 F (-75.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.3 kts Grid 25 Barometer 674.6 mb (10833 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 10 08:42:52 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:42:52 -0400 Subject: Looking for WD2010 chip In-Reply-To: <48EE9705.23393.12A2C7B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48EED891.4060009@hawkmountain.net> <48EE9705.23393.12A2C7B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48EF5BDC.4000808@hawkmountain.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Oct 2008 at 0:22, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > >> Anyone have one available ? >> > > I'll look--what package did you have in mind? > 40 pin DIP -- Curt > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 08:44:49 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:44:49 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Eight, actually. My employer is about to be, and there are quite a few > others. Still, getting long in the tooth. Wiki says ten years. > With design cycles measured in years rather than weeks, the > supercomputer world doesn't consider things "obsolete" as quickly as the PC > world. OK, but you have to admit that the SV1 line is at the end of the line. > Indeed, the code is being developed on a 25-year-old super, but > admittedly only because it's available and compatible. Well, that was one of the major selling points of the EL line. > Besides, SV1ex machines are still pretty pricey, and T90s are pretty > difficult to find, and WAY out of any reasonable price range. Is anyone even using a T90, for that matter? They are older than SV1s. -- Will From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 10 08:50:21 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:50:21 -0400 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48EF5D9D.60307@hawkmountain.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 10 October 2008 00:24, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > >> Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, >> tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... >> >> -- Curt >> > > :-) > > Having fun with the new toy? > yes. It is an interesting box. Not quite what I expected.... looking for software for it... and a WD2010 chip (which would allow me to exceed 1024 cylinders on the hard drive). If I can find someone to burn a PAL for me... I can also add support for the 4th head select line... upping the max heads from 8 to 16. I may not change these things... but if I can easily enough I will to give greatest drive flexibility. I had it all apart (it is difficult to take this thing apart !) There was a small 'sliver' of plastic cracked away at the front in front of the keyboard... I glued that. The larger crack in the back doesn't want to close well (even with a clamp), so I doubt superglue would work very well... so since it is not very apparant, I'll probably fill the crack with epoxy to strengthen it and that should do. The metal that was bent was straightened... but a metal tab where the back metal screws onto the side metal was a casualty... it broke off while trying to straighten it.... but not a big deal, as it is held on by 3 other screws.... assembled you'd never even know. I must say this thing is really difficult to take apart and put together.... it has pretty good build quality though. The toughest part is that the rear case binds on the floppy drive power connector.... if I had followed the 3B1 FAQ recommended disassembly procedure I probably would have broken the floppy drive PCB. I took the monitor off the top, that allowed me to see what I was doing... there was just enough room to use long needle nose pliers to disconnect the floppy drive power connector. reassembly will be fun.... Let me know when the laptop arrives. -- Curt -- Curt From auringer at tds.net Fri Oct 10 11:48:28 2008 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:48:28 -0500 Subject: Pinging Mr Griffith (Re: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081010114828.HOICP.1675908.root@webfep12> Hey David, I replied off-list to your request. Did you get my e-mail, or did it get eaten somewhere along the line? Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 10 12:04:02 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:04:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48EF5D9D.60307@hawkmountain.net> References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> <48EF5D9D.60307@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <7E3768D4-2E62-4108-8531-4F0302E0681E@neurotica.com> On Oct 10, 2008, at 9:50 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > yes. It is an interesting box. Not quite what I expected.... They're really neat machines. > looking for software for it... and a WD2010 chip (which would > allow me to exceed 1024 cylinders on the hard drive). If I can > find someone to burn a PAL for me... I can also add support for > the 4th head select line... upping the max heads from 8 to 16. I can burn that PAL for you. Contact me off-list and let me know what you need. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 10 12:09:19 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pinging Mr Griffith (Re: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4) In-Reply-To: <20081010114828.HOICP.1675908.root@webfep12> References: <20081010114828.HOICP.1675908.root@webfep12> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Jon Auringer wrote: > Hey David, > > I replied off-list to your request. Did you get my e-mail, or did it get > eaten somewhere along the line? No, I just forgot. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 10 13:45:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:45:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cisco Switches/Routers In-Reply-To: <48EF1310.4090205@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Oct 10, 8 09:32:16 am Message-ID: > A company I worked for a couple of years ago dropped Cisco and went for > a Chinese company called Level One. They weren't exactly brilliant, but > they were a quarter of the price. Oh, and crucially - and this is > important for unattended sites - we didn't have any unexplained PSU > fires (yes, fires) like we had with Cisco. OK, and how many _expalained_ PSU fires did you get with Level One? {Sorry, couldn't resist...} -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 10 14:58:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:58:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48EF5D9D.60307@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at Oct 10, 8 09:50:21 am Message-ID: > I had it all apart (it is difficult to take this thing apart !) > > There was a small 'sliver' of plastic cracked away at the front in front > of the keyboard... I glued that. The larger crack in the back doesn't > want to close well (even with a clamp), so I doubt superglue would > work very well... so since it is not very apparant, I'll probably fill the I haev never had much success with isocyano acryllic hydro copolymerising adhesives... If you can find a solvent for the plastic (and for quite a few thermoplastics dichloromethane (methylene choride) -- sold by good model shops unde the name 'Plastic Weld' -- works well), you can weld the plastic by pushing the edges together and then running a brush dipped in the solvent along the cracks. To make the joint even stronger, cut a piece of cotton fabric to fit over the back of the damaged area, put it in place, and 'paint' it with the solvent. Then push the fibres into the softenend plastic. If I have a plastic that I can't weld like this, or that needs to be as stong as possible, I cut a piece of metal or fibreglass (PCB material with the copper etched or sanded off) to fint over the breaks and then fix it in plasce with small nuts and bolts. It may not look neat, but it'll keep the case together. > crack with epoxy to strengthen it and that should do. The metal > that was bent was straightened... but a metal tab where the back > metal screws onto the side metal was a casualty... it broke off while > trying to straighten it.... but not a big deal, as it is held on by 3 Can you make an angle pracket to replace the damaged part here? > other screws.... assembled you'd never even know. > > I must say this thing is really difficult to take apart and put > together.... it has pretty good build quality though. The toughest > part is that the rear case binds on the floppy drive power > connector.... if I had followed the 3B1 FAQ recommended > disassembly procedure I probably would have broken the floppy > drive PCB. I took the monitor off the top, that allowed me to > see what I was doing... there was just enough room to use long > needle nose pliers to disconnect the floppy drive power connector. > reassembly will be fun.... On at least one amchine I've worked on, one of the drives has the power connector desoldered from the PCB and replaced by a cable-mounted connector (think of the male end of a PC drive power extension lead) with wires soldered to the original holes in the PCB. This meant the power connector didn't get in the way of another bit of the machine. If you try to make this modification, make sure, and check again, that you've not swapped the +5V and +12V wires round! -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 10 16:32:03 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:32:03 -0600 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:00:07 -0500. <48EF51D7.3070106@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <48EF51D7.3070106 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > But that's probably just my natural caution against using ebay as a selling > medium - I tend to always feel like I'm going to get screwed :-) I have never been "screwed" by ebay, only let down by poor packing by sellers, including ones that should know better. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pjhurst46 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 10 17:27:52 2008 From: pjhurst46 at hotmail.com (Paul Hurst) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:27:52 -0400 Subject: dec (digital) wirewrap module sockets (greenblocks) In-Reply-To: <48EF7745.6010702@retrotechnology.com> References: <48EF7745.6010702@retrotechnology.com> Message-ID: Are DEC Greenblocks (wirewrap module sockets H803 or similar) available from any source -- Besides the obvious route of unwrapping an existing backplane which is tedious and destroys the device. _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Oct 10 19:34:56 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:34:56 -0700 Subject: dec (digital) wirewrap module sockets (greenblocks) In-Reply-To: References: <48EF7745.6010702@retrotechnology.com> Message-ID: <0E7022F7-1E8D-4858-AD36-70CD0E64AAFE@shiresoft.com> I have a number (~20 or so) that are part of prototype unibus system units. Many have never been wrapped and some have had some "random" wirewrap on them (whose purpose has long faded into history). Let me know what your interest is and I'll dig them out. TTFN - Guy On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:27 PM, Paul Hurst wrote: > Are DEC Greenblocks (wirewrap module sockets H803 or similar) > available from any source -- Besides the obvious route of unwrapping > an existing backplane which is tedious and destroys the device. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from > Jamie. > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Oct 10 21:37:31 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 03:37:31 +0100 Subject: Cisco Switches/Routers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F0116B.3070600@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> A company I worked for a couple of years ago dropped Cisco and went for >> a Chinese company called Level One. They weren't exactly brilliant, but >> they were a quarter of the price. Oh, and crucially - and this is >> important for unattended sites - we didn't have any unexplained PSU >> fires (yes, fires) like we had with Cisco. > > OK, and how many _expalained_ PSU fires did you get with Level One? Heh. None, although the plugtop PSUs that came with certain Alvarion wireless bridges had a tendency to fail and cause weird problems like the bridge constantly rebooting - it would display the first few characters of its startup message, and then on the status lights, and it's booting up again. I tested 20 of the "suspect" PSUs. Four of them failed, hard. Failed hard as in "blew the case apart" failed. No, I don't know how they managed it. Gordon From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 10 22:23:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:23:58 -0600 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:32:03 -0600. Message-ID: OK, talked to the owner today. Apparently there was more in the auction than was obvious from the ebay listing: - 3 20" Barco monitors (PAL video format) - Main cabinet (approx. 450 lbs with box steel frame) - Operator's console/table (approx 50. lbs, with membrane keypad and tablet) - Printer: possibly made by Kodak, about 2'x2' with stand, has color resolution to 1/100" - Scanner: unknown brand, a separate peripheral from the main unit - Some sort of side piece for the unit, not shown in the photos on the net, that is driven by either an XT or an Apple ][. I believe this is some sort of console processor, but its unclear. - Large external power supply assembly - 3 totes full of manuals, etc. The totes contain the contents of a 40 hr. training course that tells you how to operate the unit from start to finish. Apparently the idea of training 40 hours to run the thing put off the current owner so he never turned it on. It was mothballed in the mid 90s and has been kept in a good location, but moved around several times after being decomissioned. The current owner told me a number of stories about this unit; I have not verified any of them. This particular system was used to create a large mail-order catalog (~1000 pgs) in the 80s and 90s to allow for rapid turnaround on late changing details in the catalog (product discontinued, price changed, etc.). The system was the result of a cooperative design effort between Apple, Kodak and Xerox to create the ultimate system for 2D graphic design. It originally came with two large drum scanners (SciTek brand), but since those were easily resold, they are not bundled with the Aesthedes. Later, Apple put together a system for the same market that addressed ~85% of the functionality of the Aesthedes for less than 10% of the cost. However, some graphic designers claim that the Aesthedes is still one of the best systems there is for graphic design. Supposedly the "Peanuts" strip was rendered with this system at some point (why, I don't know, it seems totally overkill!). The current owner came by the system because the company that purchased it went out of business and couldn't find a buyer for it. The current owner obtained the system along with a bunch of other equipment in a package deal from the company as it liquidated its assets. I'm guessing this thing is going to need a bonafide wood crate for the main unit at the very least. There's a Craters & Freighters in Minneapolis, so I'm going to get a quote from them. I would not be surprised if packing and freight shipping was in the 2-3K$ range, hopefully it will be more on the 2 side and less on the 3 side. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbg at world.std.com Fri Oct 10 22:45:26 2008 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:45:26 -0400 Subject: Mona Lisa In-Reply-To: <48EE4257.50108@bitsavers.org> References: <48EE4257.50108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48F02156.5010301@world.std.com> I had a number of those pictures on a tape I loaned to someone... I think they may have put it up on the net. The tape included things like the picture of the moon, the psa jet coming in for a landing, snoopy and mona lisa, among many others... I'll have to find out... If not, I may have a CD they produced for me with those files... Al Kossow wrote: > > Does anyone here have the source code for the program (FORTRAN?) > which > > produced the large Mona Lisa printout on the 1403? > > I may have it on a couple of tapes with line printer art that have been > given to > me. > > The one I'm looking for is the one with Spock holding a model of the > Enterprise... > > From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 11 00:42:28 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:42:28 -0400 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48EF5D9D.60307@hawkmountain.net> References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> <48EF5D9D.60307@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200810110142.28988.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 10 October 2008 09:50, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Friday 10 October 2008 00:24, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > >> Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, > >> tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... > >> > >> -- Curt > >> > > :-) > > > > Having fun with the new toy? > > yes. It is an interesting box. Not quite what I expected.... I wasn't sure what to expect with it. > looking for software for it... and a WD2010 chip (which would > allow me to exceed 1024 cylinders on the hard drive). If I can > find someone to burn a PAL for me... I can also add support for > the 4th head select line... upping the max heads from 8 to 16. > > I may not change these things... but if I can easily enough I > will to give greatest drive flexibility. > > I had it all apart (it is difficult to take this thing apart !) I started in that direction with the thought of disconnecting the monitor portion of it from the rest, and gave up on the idea after a bit. > There was a small 'sliver' of plastic cracked away at the front in front > of the keyboard... I glued that. The larger crack in the back doesn't > want to close well (even with a clamp), so I doubt superglue would > work very well... so since it is not very apparant, I'll probably fill the > crack with epoxy to strengthen it and that should do. The metal > that was bent was straightened... but a metal tab where the back > metal screws onto the side metal was a casualty... it broke off while > trying to straighten it.... but not a big deal, as it is held on by 3 > other screws.... assembled you'd never even know. > > I must say this thing is really difficult to take apart and put > together.... it has pretty good build quality though. The toughest > part is that the rear case binds on the floppy drive power > connector.... if I had followed the 3B1 FAQ recommended > disassembly procedure I probably would have broken the floppy > drive PCB. I took the monitor off the top, that allowed me to > see what I was doing... there was just enough room to use long > needle nose pliers to disconnect the floppy drive power connector. > reassembly will be fun.... Ah. > Let me know when the laptop arrives. It arrived today, and research and preparations will commence shortly. All was as expected, at the very least. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 01:52:43 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:52:43 -0700 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > - Scanner: unknown brand, a separate peripheral from the main unit > - Some sort of side piece for the unit, not shown in the photos on the > net, that is driven by either an XT or an Apple ][. I believe this > is some sort of console processor, but its unclear. I bet this is a RIP (Raster Image Processor) to generate film to burn plates for the for the press. In the early 80s most of them were hardware RIPs and were standalone boxes. I think you got a real nice graphics processor. Congrats. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Oct 11 02:55:25 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:55:25 +0200 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20081011095525.7150bab6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:27:23 -0700 (PDT) David Griffith wrote: > Am I wrong or does nobody make vector supers anymore? The SX9, successor of the SX-4, is a curret product. It approaches 1 Peta-FLOP. http://www.nec.com.br/download/sx9/SX9_Specs.pdf http://www.nec.com.br/download/sx9/nec_sx9_brochure.pdf -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Oct 11 03:00:49 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:00:49 +0200 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20081011100049.177eeae4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:38:10 +0000 Ethan Dicks wrote: > If I had a Cray at my disposal, I'd probably give LCDproc > a try Well, at least some of the SGI Origin machines had a LCD like this in every node, diplaying various things like CPU utilization etc.. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Oct 11 03:39:22 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:39:22 +0000 Subject: Textual LCDs on servers (was Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <20081011100049.177eeae4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> <20081011100049.177eeae4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20081011083922.GA31671@usap.gov> On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 10:00:49AM +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:38:10 +0000 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > If I had a Cray at my disposal, I'd probably give LCDproc > > a try > > Well, at least some of the SGI Origin machines had a LCD like this in > every node, diplaying various things like CPU utilization etc.. Interesting. The largest/newest SGI machines I ever got to play with were Onyx and Crimson boxes. Could you access the LCD from user-land processes, or was there always a system monitor running on them? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Oct-2008 at 08:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.3 F (-48.5 C) Windchill -94.7 F (-70.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.6 kts Grid 35 Barometer 676.9 mb (10745 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Oct 11 04:45:52 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:45:52 +0100 Subject: Textual LCDs on servers (was Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <20081011083922.GA31671@usap.gov> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> <20081011100049.177eeae4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20081011083922.GA31671@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48F075D0.8080304@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/10/2008 09:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 10:00:49AM +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:38:10 +0000 >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> Well, at least some of the SGI Origin machines had a LCD like this in >> every node, diplaying various things like CPU utilization etc.. > > Interesting. The largest/newest SGI machines I ever got to play > with were Onyx and Crimson boxes. > > Could you access the LCD from user-land processes, or was there > always a system monitor running on them? It's not in every node -- a node is usually taken to mean a processor board, with two R10K or R12K processors and some RAM on it, 4 boards to a module, and two modules per rack. Each module can be used as an 8-CPU system, and has its own local management unit, which can control the power, reset line, etc. The module midplanes are interconnected with a Craylink to make a larger system, up to 256 CPUs. The main rack in such a system has an LCD working off a little 486-based controller running a ROM-based monitor. It acts as a system monitor and overall manager, being connected to the console serial lines of the management units of the modules in the rack. Under Unix you can send messages to the 486, and the kernel does this to display system utilisation. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From austin at ozpass.co.uk Sat Oct 11 07:23:23 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:23:23 +0100 Subject: Textual LCDs on servers (was Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <20081011083922.GA31671@usap.gov> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> <20081011100049.177eeae4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20081011083922.GA31671@usap.gov> Message-ID: On 11 Oct 2008, at 09:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Could you access the LCD from user-land processes, or was there > always a system monitor running on them? I've never owned/tinkered with an Origin, so I can't comment. The Cray T3D used an Apple Powerbook built into the cabinet. Apparently its only purpose was to display Cray logos and associated animations! -Austin. From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Oct 11 07:45:13 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:45:13 -0400 Subject: Mona Lisa In-Reply-To: <48F02156.5010301@world.std.com> References: <48EE4257.50108@bitsavers.org> <48F02156.5010301@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200810111245.m9BCjFDh023888@mail.rickmurphy.net> At 11:45 PM 10/10/2008, Megan Gentry wrote: >I had a number of those pictures on a tape I loaned to someone... I have a tape somewhere with a bunch of those as well. I really should try to read it and see if it's still OK. A related war story (software breaking hardware): way back when (late '70s) I was printing the moon image (something like 4 panels wide by six panels high) on what I think was a DEC LP05 - a drum printer. This printer had hammers that fired to hit the ribbon at the right time when a character on the drum was in the right position. The printer had 66 hammers on a shuttle that moved back and forth to print even then odd characters across the 132 column page. Normally, you feed it a line and it prints half the columns, then shuttles over and prints the next half. Linefeed, print half, then shuttle again. Well, these printer images were heavily overprinted with lots of blank spaces, so you spent a lot of time shuttling the heads back and forth while printing just a few characters. So, I got smart. Wrote a program to convert the input so that the printer was fed all of the even characters (with spaces for the odd ones), overprinting as necessary, then fed the odd characters. I did this to save all the time spent shifting the hammer bank back and forth. It would take less time to feed to the printer, and would print a lot more quickly. Well, I fired it up and sent the output to the printer, which printed VERY loudly for about a minute then blew the circuit breaker. Too much, too fast, I guess. :-) -Rick From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Oct 11 10:34:23 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:34:23 -0400 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) Message-ID: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> Was wondering if 3.5" HD floppy drives can be jumpered/used in a system that only supports 720K, using them as 720K only drives ? I only own one 720K floppy drive (wouldn't mind a few more). If that is possible, and only possible with some drives, anyone know if it is possible with any of the following: Panasonic JU-257A827P Panasonic JU-256A216P Sony MP-F17W-09 SMM Samsung SFD-321D/T Epson SMD-1300 TEAC FD-235HF Also, anyone know if there if it is possible to slow the spindle speed so that 1.44M can be done on machines that only have DD data rate ? (and if so, any of the above drives capable of being slowed ?) Would that even work ? -- Curt From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 11 10:59:41 2008 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:59:41 +0100 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <48F0CD6D.5000105@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Was wondering if 3.5" HD floppy drives can be jumpered/used in > a system that only supports 720K, using them as 720K only > drives ? > > I only own one 720K floppy drive (wouldn't mind a few more). > > If that is possible, and only possible with some drives, anyone know > if it is possible with any of the following: Standard PC 1.44M drives will work fine as 720K drives as long as you ONLY use 720K DD media, most drives auto detect the media and adjust the data rate accordingly. The same is not true however for 1.2M 5.25" drives which IIRC must be told what rate to operate at, as the spindle speed is higher for 1.2M, and there is no density select hole as there is on 720K/1.44M. There are a couple of problems however, most 1.44M drives are jumpered to operate as drive 1 only, and cannot easily be changed, this can be fixed however by swapping lines in the cable e.g. swapping 10 and 12 will make the drive respond as drive 0. Also depending on your system, it may require a ready signal on Pin 34, most 1.44M drives supply disk change on this pin, however the couple of systems I have worked with that require this signal (Amstrad CPC, Spectrum +3), wiring the signal permenently to ground will do the trick. Note some of the older 1.44s may have jumpers to change the ID, and enable ready. I have some Teac FD-235F drives that are like this (they have a bunch of jimpers just to the left of the steper motor), unfortunatly the HF that you have does not. > Also, anyone know if there if it is possible to slow the spindle speed > so that 1.44M can be done on machines that only have DD data rate ? > (and if so, any of the above drives capable of being slowed ?) Would > that even work ? Unfortunatly I believe that the spindle speed in 1.44s is always 300rpm, even when operating in HD mode, and that is fixed in the drive, I don't think that's possible (with standard drives at least). Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 11 11:19:33 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Textual LCDs on servers (was Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <20081011083922.GA31671@usap.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Oct 11, 8 08:39:22 am" Message-ID: <200810111619.m9BGJXt2009310@floodgap.com> > > > If I had a Cray at my disposal, I'd probably give LCDproc > > > a try > > > > Well, at least some of the SGI Origin machines had a LCD like this in > > every node, diplaying various things like CPU utilization etc.. > > Interesting. The largest/newest SGI machines I ever got to play > with were Onyx and Crimson boxes. > > Could you access the LCD from user-land processes, or was there > always a system monitor running on them? The Apple Network Servers have a user-accessible LCD. There is an LCDproc for them, but ANS AIX will let you drive it directly with the lcdstring command. root has this in my 500's crontab: * * * * * /usr/bin/uptime | /usr/sbin/lcdstring The function of this should be obvious :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 11 11:37:08 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:37:08 -0600 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:52:43 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > > - Scanner: unknown brand, a separate peripheral from the main unit > > - Some sort of side piece for the unit, not shown in the photos on the > > net, that is driven by either an XT or an Apple ][. I believe this > > is some sort of console processor, but its unclear. > > I bet this is a RIP (Raster Image Processor) to generate film to burn > plates for the for the press. In the early 80s most of them were > hardware RIPs and were standalone boxes. That would make sense; the Dutch site mentioned earlier in this thread says that a RIP peripheral was available. > I think you got a real nice graphics processor. Congrats. Me too :-). I got in touch with the contact person listed at the Dutch museum site; he says they have no technical documentation on their system, so while it is assembled, it isn't functioning. I may be able to help them get their system back on-line if the documentation with this system provides the necessary information. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 11 11:38:16 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:38:16 -0600 Subject: Textual LCDs on servers (was Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:39:22 -0000. <20081011083922.GA31671@usap.gov> Message-ID: In article <20081011083922.GA31671 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > Could you access the LCD from user-land processes, or was there > always a system monitor running on them? I believe it always ran a system monitor; I haven't yet attempted to power up my Reality Monster which has such a display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 11 12:29:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:29:13 -0700 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <48F07FF9.12689.1A18BBB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2008 at 11:34, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Was wondering if 3.5" HD floppy drives can be jumpered/used in > a system that only supports 720K, using them as 720K only > drives ? Without running down my documentation on the drives, here's an approximate answer. Any 1.44MB drive will read and write 720K diskettes just fine (as you probably already know). However, using one as a 720K-only drive or to replace a 720K drive has a few issues, some of which can be resolved by reconfiguring the drive, sometimes not. For example, there are *many* variations on the Teac FD235HF; newer drives tend to be less configurable (or more difficult to configure) than older ones. The first issue is to get the drive to ignore the difference between 1.44MB and 720KB media (i.e. the media type aperture in the floppy jacket). If a drive could be configured to operate in "host media select" (also sometimes called "PS/2 mode") where the media type is signalled by driving pin 2 on the floppy interface, it's possible to get the drives to ignore the aperture. Otherwise, you have to use care to make sure that if you're using 1.44MB media as 720KB, the aperture is covered over. The second is the function of pin 34. The normal (PC) function of this pin is as a "disk changed" indicator; but some drives allowed for redefining this pin as "ready", which is the 720K convention. I've done that with Sony 1.44MB drives and know that it was a jumper option for some Teac models. If you've got one, also check out the Teac FD235J (2.88MB drive). Some models of this drive had jumpers for just about anything you could imagine, including media select and ready-vs-disk change. > Also, anyone know if there if it is possible to slow the spindle speed > so that 1.44M can be done on machines that only have DD data rate ? > (and if so, any of the above drives capable of being slowed ?) Would > that even work ? While it's possible to change the spindle speed on many 1.44MB drives, the speed change is to 360 RPM from 300 RPM. As far as slowing the spindle speed to 150 RPM, while it might be possible with some hacking, you wouldn't like the result. Read signal strength on a disk drive is proportional to the square of the speed of the medium passing by the head; halving the drive speed quarters the read signal level (one of the reasons, but not the only one, that inner tracks on a diskette tend to be less reliable than outer ones). In the early days of the PC AT, there were some offerings of 5.25" drives with 180 RPM spindle speeds to allow them to be used with a PC XT diskette controller for 1.2MB media. They barely worked at all. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 11 12:32:51 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:32:51 -0500 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48F0E343.8030009@mdrconsult.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> On Friday 10 October 2008 00:24, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>> Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, >>> tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... >>> >>> -- Curt >> :-) >> >> Having fun with the new toy? > > I'd like to get a hold of these images as well. David, do you know whether ImageDisk will image them correctly? I have them, but the last time I tried to copy them, none of the PC-based disk imagers would get a reliable image. I was taking backups on the PC7300 and making dupes there. Tedious, at best. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 11 12:38:19 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Was wondering if 3.5" HD floppy drives can be jumpered/used in > a system that only supports 720K, using them as 720K only > drives ? yes > Also, anyone know if there if it is possible to slow the spindle speed > so that 1.44M can be done on machines that only have DD data rate ? > (and if so, any of the above drives capable of being slowed ?) Would > that even work ? Nobody has successfully used a 3.5" at 150RPM. Yet. Besides the "normal" 300RPM drives, there are some 600RPM (old Sony), and 360RPM (NEC and a few others) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 11 12:44:08 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:44:08 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software Message-ID: <48F0E5E8.2040603@bitsavers.org> > David, do you know whether ImageDisk will image them correctly? It appears ImageDisk doesn't work with 8 sector ones. The 3.51 utilities disks were copied OK with ImageDisk, except for the VDI disk, which apparently is 8 sector. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 11 13:11:09 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:11:09 -0400 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0CD6D.5000105@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <48F0CD6D.5000105@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200810111411.09280.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 11 October 2008 11:59, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > There are a couple of problems however, most 1.44M drives are jumpered > to operate as drive 1 only, and cannot easily be changed, this can be > fixed however by swapping lines in the cable e.g. swapping 10 and 12 > will make the drive respond as drive 0. Hence the twist in the cable... > Also depending on your system, it may require a ready signal on Pin 34, > most 1.44M drives supply disk change on this pin, however the couple of > systems I have worked with that require this signal (Amstrad CPC, > Spectrum +3), wiring the signal permenently to ground will do the trick. I have somewhere several of those adapters that were suppled to convert the pin-type connectors common on 3.5" drives to the edge connector common on floppy cables supplied for earlier drives, and some of these at least have a jumper on them that I would guess allows for selecting this. At least I know that it does *something* with regard to pin 34 (Curtis, let me know if you need one... :-). > Note some of the older 1.44s may have jumpers to change the ID, and > enable ready. I have some Teac FD-235F drives that are like this (they > have a bunch of jimpers just to the left of the steper motor), > unfortunatly the HF that you have does not. I am going to have to look through the floppy drives I have on hand and see which models they are and which might offer some flexibility and which don't. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 11 13:37:15 2008 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:37:15 +0100 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <200810111411.09280.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <48F0CD6D.5000105@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <200810111411.09280.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48F0F25B.3030905@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 11 October 2008 11:59, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >> There are a couple of problems however, most 1.44M drives are jumpered >> to operate as drive 1 only, and cannot easily be changed, this can be >> fixed however by swapping lines in the cable e.g. swapping 10 and 12 >> will make the drive respond as drive 0. > > Hence the twist in the cable... Sort of, to use a 1.44 as a normal drive you only need to exchange pins 10 and 12 (which are the drive select lines), and not move the motor on line. The normal PC cable twist exchanges both. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Oct 11 13:53:07 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:53:07 -0400 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F0E5E8.2040603@bitsavers.org> References: <48F0E5E8.2040603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48F0F613.7000904@hawkmountain.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > David, do you know whether ImageDisk will image them correctly? > > It appears ImageDisk doesn't work with 8 sector ones. > > The 3.51 utilities disks were copied OK with ImageDisk, except for the > VDI disk, which apparently is 8 sector. > Hrm... any ideas why it won't image 8 sector ? I'd think that smaller # of sectors would be easier.... I remember using utilities under DOS to make funky formats... but I was always shooting for more capacity in the day (extra sector, extra tracks).... not less :-) Is the 3B1/7300 the only way to duplicate these disks ? -- Curt From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 11 13:49:10 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:49:10 -0400 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0F25B.3030905@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <200810111411.09280.rtellason@verizon.net> <48F0F25B.3030905@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200810111449.10957.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 11 October 2008 14:37, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Saturday 11 October 2008 11:59, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > >> There are a couple of problems however, most 1.44M drives are jumpered > >> to operate as drive 1 only, and cannot easily be changed, this can be > >> fixed however by swapping lines in the cable e.g. swapping 10 and 12 > >> will make the drive respond as drive 0. > > > > Hence the twist in the cable... > > Sort of, to use a 1.44 as a normal drive you only need to exchange pins > 10 and 12 (which are the drive select lines), and not move the motor on > line. The normal PC cable twist exchanges both. Ah. There was a time a while back when guy brought me a homebrew Xerox 820-1 system that had two different brands of 5.25" floppies in it, and I had what it took going on in my head at the time to look at all of the lines and whatnot and make it work. Somewhere around the time peecee hardware started to take over I started seeing less and less of those sorts of challenges, so those particular brain cells have been sound asleep for a while now. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Oct 11 14:03:39 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:03:39 -0400 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <48F0F88B.4030107@hawkmountain.net> Thanks all for the input.... so, if I understand it correctly I should be able to use any of these drives (other than the drive select and drive ready signal issue) as a 720K drive. I'd be using 720K media, so I'd imagine I don't need to worry about 'faking' out the HD sensor. Out of the drives I listed, are any of the makes/models considered good drives or lemon drives.... (would like to wee out lemons). (I know I had mixed luck with TEAC drives... as I recall issues about the sensor switches going up in resistance... I remember popping the backs off the switches on one and cleaning them up inside and restoring proper operation of the drive). Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Panasonic JU-257A827P > Panasonic JU-256A216P > Sony MP-F17W-09 SMM > Samsung SFD-321D/T > Epson SMD-1300 > TEAC FD-235HF And I think I have a few of the adapters around for IDC to edge connector... and I think at least one has a jumper or two... any idea what those do ? (drive ready vs disk change ?) Thanks, -- Curt From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 11 14:04:00 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:04:00 -0400 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F0F613.7000904@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F0E5E8.2040603@bitsavers.org> <48F0F613.7000904@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200810111504.00412.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 11 October 2008 14:53, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > > > David, do you know whether ImageDisk will image them correctly? > > > > It appears ImageDisk doesn't work with 8 sector ones. > > > > The 3.51 utilities disks were copied OK with ImageDisk, except for the > > VDI disk, which apparently is 8 sector. > > Hrm... any ideas why it won't image 8 sector ? I'd think that > smaller # of sectors would be easier.... > > I remember using utilities under DOS to make funky formats... > but I was always shooting for more capacity in the day (extra > sector, extra tracks).... not less :-) I remember some of those, too, and in fact had some in the files section of my bbs. But I also remember stuff that would deal with "foreign" formats, in particular there was "Media Master" and "Uniform". The former was simply a file transfer program, while the latter would actually "mount" a foreign format disk under an otherwise unused drive letter, both of which I had occasion to use under CP/M. I'm pretty sure that at least MM was available under DOS as well, dunno about Uniform. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 11 14:06:59 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:06:59 +0100 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48F0F953.9010405@philpem.me.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > Nobody has successfully used a 3.5" at 150RPM. Yet. > Besides the "normal" 300RPM drives, there are some 600RPM (old Sony), and > 360RPM (NEC and a few others) What about the old Amiga high-density drives that ran at 300RPM for DSDD and 150RPM for DSHD? The story I heard was that it worked out cheaper for CBM to get a bunch of speed-switching floppy drives made up instead of modifying the disc controller to support multiple data rates. I'm not sure I believe that... But yes, there were 600RPM 3.5" drives -- some Hewlett-Packard logic analysers (1650A/B series mainly, IIRC) used them. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 11 14:11:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:11:28 -0700 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0CD6D.5000105@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net>, <48F0CD6D.5000105@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <48F097F0.18330.1A765528@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2008 at 16:59, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Also depending on your system, it may require a ready signal on Pin 34, > most 1.44M drives supply disk change on this pin, however the couple of > systems I have worked with that require this signal (Amstrad CPC, > Spectrum +3), wiring the signal permenently to ground will do the trick. And often cause the system to hang without a diskette in the drive, unless there's some sort of deadman timer on I/O operations. There are also a few systems out there that have software to interrupt on ready-to-not-ready transitions to determine if a disk-changed condition should be checked for--but you mostly see this on systems with 8" drives with line-powered spindle motors. We just polled the write-protect sensor on old 5.25" drives to do the same thing. On many of those 34-conductor 5.25-3.5 adapters, the jumper for disk change switches between pin 34 and nothing. A drive with a pin 34 READY output on a PC that's expecting disk-change instead creates problems. Cheers, Chuck > > Note some of the older 1.44s may have jumpers to change the ID, and > enable ready. I have some Teac FD-235F drives that are like this (they > have a bunch of jimpers just to the left of the steper motor), > unfortunatly the HF that you have does not. > > > Also, anyone know if there if it is possible to slow the spindle speed > > so that 1.44M can be done on machines that only have DD data rate ? > > (and if so, any of the above drives capable of being slowed ?) Would > > that even work ? > > Unfortunatly I believe that the spindle speed in 1.44s is always 300rpm, > even when operating in HD mode, and that is fixed in the drive, I don't > think that's possible (with standard drives at least). > > Cheers. > > Phill. > > -- > Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! > > "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 11 14:24:59 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:24:59 -0700 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0F88B.4030107@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net>, <48F0F88B.4030107@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <48F09B1B.31320.1A82B83D@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2008 at 15:03, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Out of the drives I listed, are any of the makes/models considered > good drives or lemon drives.... (would like to wee out lemons). > (I know I had mixed luck with TEAC drives... as I recall issues about > the sensor switches going up in resistance... I remember popping > the backs off the switches on one and cleaning them up inside and > restoring proper operation of the drive). Older Teac drives are better(and generally more configurable) than the cost-reduced newer ones. I find that NEC and Toshiba drives, particularly the older ones are pretty good. My experiences with Sony, Chinon and Epson have been variable. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 11 14:26:59 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:26:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cisco Switches/Routers In-Reply-To: <48F0116B.3070600@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Oct 11, 8 03:37:31 am Message-ID: > > OK, and how many _expalained_ PSU fires did you get with Level One? > > Heh. None, although the plugtop PSUs that came with certain Alvarion I _hate_ those wall-wart style PSUs. They're often recommended in electronics magazines over here as being a safe way to make a mains powered device. Sorry, even if I say so myself, Id much rather use a quality mains transoformer, in an earthed metal case, with fuses on all windings, and so on, wired by me. I can't put any safety logos on it, but my homebrew PSUs have never run hot, never caught fire, and never given even a minor shock, which is more than I can say pf wall-warts. > wireless bridges had a tendency to fail and cause weird problems like > the bridge constantly rebooting - it would display the first few > characters of its startup message, and then on the status > lights, and it's booting up again. Sounds like excessive ripple on the outputs. Some of these wall-warts are actually SMPUSs internally, and with one common-ish controller chip the darn thing will pulse on and off at about 1Hz if one of the cpaacitors fails. Took me a longh time to find that the first time... > > I tested 20 of the "suspect" PSUs. Four of them failed, hard. Failed > hard as in "blew the case apart" failed. No, I don't know how they > managed it. Again, if an SMPSU, a shoted chopper or similar will do this. On linear type supplies, I've had shorted rectifiers or smoothing capacitors get the transformer hot enough tomelt the case (no internal fusing, apparently the transformer primary is supposed to burn out safely under such condiitions, all I can say is that it didn't (the primary was still continuous after I unplugged the thing and let it cool down). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 11 14:37:43 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:37:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0F953.9010405@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 11, 8 08:06:59 pm Message-ID: > But yes, there were 600RPM 3.5" drives -- some Hewlett-Packard logic analysers > (1650A/B series mainly, IIRC) used them. IIRC, the original Sony 3.5" drive was a 600RPM unit. Originally it was a single-sided unti, later there was a very similar double-sided one. These drives are not uncommon in classic computers -- HP used them a lot -- not just in logic analysers, but also in many of their floppy drive and hard/floppy drive units (HP9121, 9122, 9133V, 9133XV, 9133H, Integral PC, 9114A -- and that's just the ones I can see from here!). They are also used in at least some models of Apricot PC. There's a half-height ('slimline') Sony 600 RPM drive too, It shares many components with the Apple 800K drive (the main difference is in the control logic ASIC). It was used, for example, in the HP9114B. The HP9123 (dual foppy drive for the HP150-II) normally used the earlier DS drives, but I've seen one with slimline drives. The PCB has pads for both types of connector, there's a DIP switch to tell the firmware which drives are fitted. And yes I've repaired just about all of the above drives at some time or another... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 11 15:17:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 21:17:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F097F0.18330.1A765528@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 11, 8 12:11:28 pm Message-ID: [Disk Change] > with 8" drives with line-powered spindle motors. We just polled the > write-protect sensor on old 5.25" drives to do the same thing. The HP9836 system that I've been working on has a pair of 5.25" drives which are effectively permanently enabled (the 'MX' jumper is fitted) and thus have spearate cables back to the contoller board. The write-protect lines trigger flip-flops for a disk change function (as well, of course, as being used for the write protect function) while the index lines also trigger retriggerable monostables for a ready function (if index pulses are happening sufficiently often, there must be a disk in the drive, it must be turning). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 11 16:20:49 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:20:49 -0700 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: References: <48F097F0.18330.1A765528@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 11, 8 12:11:28 pm, Message-ID: <48F0B641.2155.1AECC348@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2008 at 21:17, Tony Duell wrote: > The HP9836 system that I've been working on has a pair of 5.25" drives > which are effectively permanently enabled (the 'MX' jumper is fitted) and > thus have spearate cables back to the contoller board. The write-protect > lines trigger flip-flops for a disk change function (as well, of course, > as being used for the write protect function) while the index lines also > trigger retriggerable monostables for a ready function (if index pulses > are happening sufficiently often, there must be a disk in the drive, it > must be turning). I've got some 5.25" MPI drives with a separate "ready" board that plugs into the main drive electronics board. It's got a 96L02 dual one-shot and some discretes to form a ready circuit. One of the problems with add-on ready circuits on the controller side of the select circuitry is that determinining ready has to involve enough time (3 revs usually) to make sure that spindle's up to speed. Unfortunately, this creates a delay every time one changes drive select. Conditioning the READY off of the motor signal is no guarantee, as some drives disable the motor when there's no diskette in the drive. So leaving drives always selected as you describe is a way around the problem. We were plagued by customers simply changing diskettes whenever they felt like it. Relying on a checksum-after-select scheme such as that used by CP/M and early MS-DOS versions was pretty ugly (and not at all airtight, something that plagued MICROSO~1 no end). While playing with the driver, I noted that the write protect signal was conditioned only on select, not on motor, head-load or ready. Experimenting with some of the other engineers to see how fast one could insert and remove a floppy gave a safe polling interval of about 250 msec, which was barely noticeable in normal system operation and performed only if there were open files on the drive. Some of the single-sided 600 RPM Sony (0A1?) drives were also used in a few CP/M systems, such as the Preis. It was a very noticeable improvement over 5.25" media. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Oct 11 18:18:16 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 18:18:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F0F613.7000904@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F0E5E8.2040603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <30D2822A5DE9@dunfield.com> > > It appears ImageDisk doesn't work with 8 sector ones. > > > > The 3.51 utilities disks were copied OK with ImageDisk, except for the > > VDI disk, which apparently is 8 sector. > > > Hrm... any ideas why it won't image 8 sector ? I'd think that > smaller # of sectors would be easier.... I doub't it's because if the number of sectors. ImageDisk has no trouble with 8 sectors - format an 8-sector disk on an old DOS system and try it. Exactly what do you get when you try and use ImageDisk on these disks..? Do you get some sectors, but not others? Does it fail to see any sectors at all? More likely it's because the 8-sector format has other charactistics which make it incompatible with the PC controller. For example, if you are missing one sector of every track, then a likely candidate is that it may squeeze things a little too tightly, moving data into the dead area following the index pulse of the PC controller. If it's only slightly too close, then slowing the drive may help - I've used this technique very successfully to both save and recreate Cromemco disks, which most of my systems can't read on a full speed drive. If you don't see any sectors, or get errors trying to read all sectors, then it may be another factor - perhaps the 8-sector format uses non- standard marks, or a different encoding altogether. Does anyone know the details of the AT&T 3B1 diskette format? What FDC is used in this machine? Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 11 18:48:16 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0F953.9010405@philpem.me.uk> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> <48F0F953.9010405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20081011164512.S22432@shell.lmi.net> > > Nobody has successfully used a 3.5" at 150RPM. Yet. On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Philip Pemberton wrote: > What about the old Amiga high-density drives that ran at 300RPM for DSDD and > 150RPM for DSHD? Sorry, I forgot about them. I've never had any Amigas THAT new. > The story I heard was that it worked out cheaper for CBM to get a bunch of > speed-switching floppy drives made up instead of modifying the disc controller > to support multiple data rates. I'm not sure I believe that... It also provided a way to retrofit to machines that didn't support the higher (1000bps) data transfer rate. The Weltek 180 RPM 5.25" drive provided 1.2M support to XTs. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 18:50:58 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 18:50:58 -0500 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F07FF9.12689.1A18BBB6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <48F07FF9.12689.1A18BBB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48F13BE2.1000908@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The first issue is to get the drive to ignore the difference between > 1.44MB and 720KB media I think drives nearly always do the detection via a microswitch, don't they? (It wouldn't surprise me if at least one wasn't using some kind of optical arrangement). In the event of no jumper, cutting traces or bridging switch pins with solder should do the job I would have thought. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 11 19:04:48 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 17:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F0B641.2155.1AECC348@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48F097F0.18330.1A765528@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 11, 8 12:11:28 pm, <48F0B641.2155.1AECC348@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081011170254.J22432@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > We were plagued by customers simply changing diskettes whenever they > felt like it. Relying on a checksum-after-select scheme such as that > used by CP/M and early MS-DOS versions was pretty ugly (and not at > all airtight, something that plagued MICROSO~1 no end). Why didn't MICROS~1 ever document that the CPM ^C was fully enabled to flush the disk buggers? While > playing with the driver, I noted that the write protect signal was > conditioned only on select, not on motor, head-load or ready. > Experimenting with some of the other engineers to see how fast one > could insert and remove a floppy gave a safe polling interval of > about 250 msec, which was barely noticeable in normal system > operation and performed only if there were open files on the drive. > > Some of the single-sided 600 RPM Sony (0A1?) drives were also used in > a few CP/M systems, such as the Preis. It was a very noticeable > improvement over 5.25" media. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From bear at typewritten.org Sat Oct 11 19:10:30 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 17:10:30 -0700 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <20081011164512.S22432@shell.lmi.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> <48F0F953.9010405@philpem.me.uk> <20081011164512.S22432@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <98FB6E74-4242-4289-A555-9F8C360B22F7@typewritten.org> On Oct 11, 2008, at 4:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Nobody has successfully used a 3.5" at 150RPM. Yet. > > On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> What about the old Amiga high-density drives that ran at 300RPM for >> DSDD and >> 150RPM for DSHD? > > Sorry, I forgot about them. > I've never had any Amigas THAT new. One might argue that given the cool reception the users had to that particular drive, it wasn't successful in the Amiga either. ok bear From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 11 19:12:23 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 17:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F13BE2.1000908@gmail.com> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <48F07FF9.12689.1A18BBB6@cclist.sydex.com> <48F13BE2.1000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081011171100.E22432@shell.lmi.net> > > The first issue is to get the drive to ignore the difference between > > 1.44MB and 720KB media On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > I think drives nearly always do the detection via a microswitch, don't they? Some use a microswitch, some use a photocell, some (early PS/2) have NO detection hardware. From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 19:18:47 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:18:47 -0400 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F13BE2.1000908@gmail.com> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <48F07FF9.12689.1A18BBB6@cclist.sydex.com> <48F13BE2.1000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F14267.5090200@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The first issue is to get the drive to ignore the difference between >> 1.44MB and 720KB media > > I think drives nearly always do the detection via a microswitch, don't > they? (It wouldn't surprise me if at least one wasn't using some kind of > optical arrangement). In the event of no jumper, cutting traces or > bridging switch pins with solder should do the job I would have thought. IBM PS/2s did it optically. Peace... Sridhar From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 21:46:11 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <200810111504.00412.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <680771.88333.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 10/11/08, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > > David, do you know whether ImageDisk will > image them correctly? > > > > > > It appears ImageDisk doesn't work with 8 > sector ones. > > > > > > The 3.51 utilities disks were copied OK with > ImageDisk, except for the > > > VDI disk, which apparently is 8 sector. > > > > Hrm... any ideas why it won't image 8 sector ? > I'd think that > > smaller # of sectors would be easier.... > > > > I remember using utilities under DOS to make funky > formats... > > but I was always shooting for more capacity in the day > (extra > > sector, extra tracks).... not less :-) > > I remember some of those, too, and in fact had some in > the files section of > my bbs. But I also remember stuff that would deal with > "foreign" formats, You shouldn't have any problems reading disks with unusual numbers of sectors. I've been reading/writing/formatting all sorts of wacky formats in Linux with no problems. Even 77 track/256 byte sector/DD/5 1/4" disks. Single density is still a challenge for the stock floppy controller though. All you have to do is figure out the formatting of the disk, by supplying fdrawcmd with commands to read a track, sector, etc and test the limits until you hit errors, so you can figure out the track/sector layout. Then, set the parameters of the drive with setfdprm, and dd the disk to a file. By setting the parameters of the drive with setfdprm, you can then use fdformat to format blank disks in that format, and then you can freely dd your image back to a disk. -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 11 22:28:59 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:28:59 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software Message-ID: <48F16EFB.705@bitsavers.org> > Does it fail to see any sectors at all? Correct. I haven't tried a catweasel on it yet to see what the details of the sectors are. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 22:47:38 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F14267.5090200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <828350.61209.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 10/11/08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> The first issue is to get the drive to ignore the > difference between > >> 1.44MB and 720KB media > > > > I think drives nearly always do the detection via a > microswitch, don't > > they? (It wouldn't surprise me if at least one > wasn't using some kind of > > optical arrangement). In the event of no jumper, > cutting traces or > > bridging switch pins with solder should do the job I > would have thought. > > IBM PS/2s did it optically. Hehe. Or not at all... I remember using one PS/2 that just assumed everything was HD unless told otherwise (or the disk was already readable). Didn't even need to drill holes in the disks to 'upgrade' them. Of course, these days, I find myself taping over the holes in disks, since DD media is hard to find. I've made high density 5 1/4" drives into 80 track double density (720K) drives by cutting the trace on the board that leads to pin 2, and tying it to ground. This forces the drive into DD recording. Never tried it with a 3 1/2" drive. Now, what I wonder, is how does the _controller_ know what kind of disk is inserted in the drive? According to the documentation I have, the density select line is defined as a unidirectional signal TO the drive, not from it. Having not worked as much with 3 1/2" drives, I don't know, but I would assume that the drive senses the disk's hole, and operates in that data rate and density recording, and the computer simply picks up on the data rate and works accordingly. Or, perhaps, in 3 1/2" drives, pin 2 is bidirectional, allowing the drive to tell the computer the type of disk inserted. I don't know. But, 1.44mb floppy drives are cheap and easy to get. Grab a soldering iron and try it :) -Ian From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Oct 11 22:47:15 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 03:47:15 +0000 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <98FB6E74-4242-4289-A555-9F8C360B22F7@typewritten.org> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> <48F0F953.9010405@philpem.me.uk> <20081011164512.S22432@shell.lmi.net> <98FB6E74-4242-4289-A555-9F8C360B22F7@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20081012034715.GB26924@usap.gov> On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 05:10:30PM -0700, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Oct 11, 2008, at 4:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>Nobody has successfully used a 3.5" at 150RPM. Yet. > > > >On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >>What about the old Amiga high-density drives that ran at 300RPM for > >>DSDD and > >>150RPM for DSHD? > > > >Sorry, I forgot about them. > >I've never had any Amigas THAT new. > > One might argue that given the cool reception the users had to that > particular drive, it wasn't successful in the Amiga either. I have several - one in my A4000 and at least one in a couple of A3000s. They were, to me, essential, for trading things between PCs and Amigas before everyone had a network card and/or was on the Internet. ISTR they were well over $100 each, so I only bought one for each of the machines that got daily use. I don't recall any reliability problems with them that weren't cheap-media related. The "nice" thing about them is that they are (electrically) compatible with every Amiga made. I can't guarantee that they fit inside every case style as FD0:, but you can plug them in and they will work, right back to a 1985 A1000. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Oct-2008 at 03:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -52.6 F (-47.0 C) Windchill -88.4 F (-66.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.6 kts Grid 35 Barometer 676.7 mb (10753 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 11 23:23:51 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 21:23:51 -0700 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <828350.61209.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <48F14267.5090200@gmail.com>, <828350.61209.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48F11967.31698.1C700A64@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2008 at 20:47, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > IBM PS/2s did it optically. > > Hehe. Or not at all... I remember using one PS/2 that just assumed > everything was HD unless told otherwise (or the disk was already > readable). Didn't even need to drill holes in the disks to 'upgrade' > them. Of course, these days, I find myself taping over the holes in > disks, since DD media is hard to find. At one time, diskette "punchers" were a popular item at computer swap meets. The price differential between HD and DD media at one point was substantial. I think I paid over $50 for my first box of 10 Fuji DSHD 3.5" diskettes. I found it easier just to stack up a bunch of DD diskettes on my drill press and drill a hole through the entire stack. > I've made high density 5 1/4" drives into 80 track double density > (720K) drives by cutting the trace on the board that leads to pin 2, > and tying it to ground. This forces the drive into DD recording. You're leaving something out here. While that forces the drive into DD recording mode, the spindle speed doesn't change unless the drive is also jumpered for "dual-speed" 300/360 mode. So there can be a real difference between a "fixed" drive and a genuine 720K DSQD drive. > Now, what I wonder, is how does the _controller_ know what kind of > disk is inserted in the drive? According to the documentation I have, > the density select line is defined as a unidirectional signal TO the > drive, not from it. Having not worked as much with 3 1/2" drives, I > don't know, but I would assume that the drive senses the disk's hole, > and operates in that data rate and density recording, and the computer > simply picks up on the data rate and works accordingly. Or, perhaps, > in 3 1/2" drives, pin 2 is bidirectional, allowing the drive to tell > the computer the type of disk inserted. I don't know. Grab some documentation on early 1.44MB drives. You could often configure them for "auto sense" (the way most recent drives are by default) or "remote sense" in which the status of the media sensor is fed back to the host and the host selects the density via pin 2. Or do it the way the PS/2 did and ignore the media type completely. Some drives are smarter than others. Most 3.5" USB drives will automatically sense 1.23MB media and adjust the spindle speek accordingly (they do not, however allow formatting of 1.23MB media). I've got a "legacy" interface drive from Toshiba that will also do the same. Appropriately configured 3.5" Teac GF and some HF drives can use a signal on pin 4 to change spindle speeds. There's more variation among HD 3.5" drive signals that most people realize, particularly in Japanese variants, where conventions used in the NEC 9801 held sway. A bog-standard 1.44MB PC drive will often refuse to work in that architecture. The 9801 used a very sane approach to diskettes--the format of an 8" diskette is exactly the same as the 5.25" and 3.5" varieties--77 cylinders, 2 sides, 8 sectors per side, 1024 bytes per sector and 360 RPM. Cheers, Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Oct 12 04:30:20 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:30:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Fred Cisin wrote: > Nobody has successfully used a 3.5" at 150RPM. Yet. All Amigas with HD floppy drives run HD media at 150RPM. Commodore used Chinon drives which would change speed according to the HD hole in the floppy jacket. And I have never had any problems with HD floppies on my Amiga. Altough the transfer rate is only half of an HD floppy on most other systems, it is nice to squeeze 1.9MB on a floppy (depending on the file system and trackdisk.device replacement). BTW it's working since 1992 (that's when I got my A3000). Christian From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Oct 12 06:50:42 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 06:50:42 -0500 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F16EFB.705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> > > Does it fail to see any sectors at all? > > Correct. I haven't tried a catweasel on it yet to see > what the details of the sectors are. Then most likely there is some other factor in the 8-sector format which makes it incompatible with the PC disk controller... Seems odd - if other formats commonly used on this machine use standard enough encoding, headers and marks for a PC controller to read, I wonder why they went with a different format for the 8-sector variety. Is the 8-sector type older? (ie: perhaps the changed to a more standard format somewhere along the way?) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 07:16:17 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 05:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F11967.31698.1C700A64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <176490.10358.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 10/12/08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > readable). Didn't even need to drill holes in the > disks to 'upgrade' > > them. Of course, these days, I find myself taping over > the holes in > > disks, since DD media is hard to find. > > At one time, diskette "punchers" were a popular > item at computer swap > meets. The price differential between HD and DD media at > one point > was substantial. I remember seeing the punchers, but I never had one. I just used a hand drill, and drilled them one at a time. I also had a couple that I had needed to convert at the computer lab at school - which I did by cutting that corner off the disk with a paper cutter... > > I've made high density 5 1/4" drives into 80 > track double density > > (720K) drives by cutting the trace on the board that > leads to pin 2, > > and tying it to ground. This forces the drive into DD > recording. > > You're leaving something out here. While that forces > the drive into > DD recording mode, the spindle speed doesn't change > unless the drive > is also jumpered for "dual-speed" 300/360 mode. > So there can be a > real difference between a "fixed" drive and a > genuine 720K DSQD > drive. You're right. I am leaving something out. I also changed a jumper on the drive to do that. And, on one drive, I had to mess with the wiring of the spindle motor. Thanks for reminding me. > Grab some documentation on early 1.44MB drives. You could > often > configure them for "auto sense" (the way most > recent drives are by > default) or "remote sense" in which the status of > the media sensor is > fed back to the host and the host selects the density via > pin 2. Or > do it the way the PS/2 did and ignore the media type > completely. Ah. that makes sense. I figured that there had to be some kind of function for that. -Ian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 12 08:59:11 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:59:11 +0100 Subject: Cisco Switches/Routers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F202AF.8090802@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> OK, and how many _expalained_ PSU fires did you get with Level One? >> Heh. None, although the plugtop PSUs that came with certain Alvarion > > I _hate_ those wall-wart style PSUs. They're often recommended in > electronics magazines over here as being a safe way to make a mains > powered device. Sorry, even if I say so myself, Id much rather use a > quality mains transoformer, in an earthed metal case, with fuses on all > windings, and so on, wired by me. I can't put any safety logos on it, but > my homebrew PSUs have never run hot, never caught fire, and never given > even a minor shock, which is more than I can say pf wall-warts. > >> wireless bridges had a tendency to fail and cause weird problems like >> the bridge constantly rebooting - it would display the first few >> characters of its startup message, and then on the status >> lights, and it's booting up again. > > Sounds like excessive ripple on the outputs. Some of these wall-warts are > actually SMPUSs internally, and with one common-ish controller chip the > darn thing will pulse on and off at about 1Hz if one of the cpaacitors > fails. Took me a longh time to find that the first time... These are SMPSUs. I never bothered to 'scope the outputs. They were run inside "secure" metal boxes in the lift plant room of tower blocks, so heat buildup was often a problem. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the caps were as dry as a... dry thing. >> I tested 20 of the "suspect" PSUs. Four of them failed, hard. Failed >> hard as in "blew the case apart" failed. No, I don't know how they >> managed it. > > Again, if an SMPSU, a shoted chopper or similar will do this. On linear > type supplies, I've had shorted rectifiers or smoothing capacitors get > the transformer hot enough tomelt the case (no internal fusing, > apparently the transformer primary is supposed to burn out safely under > such condiitions, all I can say is that it didn't (the primary was still > continuous after I unplugged the thing and let it cool down). The bits left looked like they had once been bits of an SMPSU, yes ;-) Gordon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 12 01:51:07 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 07:51:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F13BE2.1000908@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 11, 8 06:50:58 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The first issue is to get the drive to ignore the difference between > > 1.44MB and 720KB media > > I think drives nearly always do the detection via a microswitch, don't they? > (It wouldn't surprise me if at least one wasn't using some kind of optical Those full-height Sonys that I mentioned (which don't, of course, handle HD media [1]) use mechanical sesnors for disk-inserted and write-protect, which move little plastic 'flags' into slotted optoswitches. It wouldn't suprise me if at least one HD sensor worked that way. [1] The disk-inserted sensor pin lines up with the position of the 'HD hole' so the drive thinks it has no disk if an HD one is put in. I have been told this was deliberate, the HD media is of a higher coercivity than the DD (altough much closer than the differnce between DD and HD 5.25" diks), so using the wrong disk may well not be reliable. > arrangement). In the event of no jumper, cutting traces or bridging switch > pins with solder should do the job I would have thought. If the sensor is optical, then the same methods apply (cut a trace to force it 'dark', short the phototransistor to force it 'light'). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 12 02:24:03 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:24:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <20081011170254.J22432@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 11, 8 05:04:48 pm Message-ID: > Why didn't MICROS~1 ever document that the CPM ^C was fully enabled to > flush the disk buggers? ^^ I've made that typo many times, but fortunately I think I've always caught it before sending the e-mail... -tony From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Oct 12 13:59:58 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:59:58 +0200 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. Message-ID: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> Emulith, my ETH / Diser Lilith emulator is nearly complete. However I would really appriciate if someone with a good grasp of X11/xlib programming could have a look at the sourcecode. I am looking at tips to speed up the program, currently it runs, on my AMD64 2 GHz, at somewhat the speed of the real thing (7 MHz). There must be ways to speed it up... Any takers ? Jos From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 10 09:41:01 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200810101443.KAA12579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in >> existence. At least for even moderately technical people. > There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people (cf > Unix Hater's Handbook). Even aside from that, I'm not convinced. I think Symbolics Genera is arguably more programmer-friendly, though that could just be because I find Lisp a much nicer language than C. (There may be even better OSes; that's just what I have personal experience with.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 15:24:47 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <48EF53FC.1000201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <299099.36458.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> OI but what if you just wanted to play and not run some complicated simulation BY Crikey! --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Jules Richardson wrote: > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 9:09 AM > Dave McGuire wrote: > > As far as "familiar apps", > though...it's not exactly the type of > > equipment you'd want to run Firefox on. > > On one hand I suspect the numbers don't make sense in > terms of "familiar app > speed" vs. power required to run the machine. On the > other hand, vintage > computer collectors don't generally run their hardware > for efficiency reasons > anyway :-) > > Having said that, running "familiar apps" on a > supercomputer seems a bit like > only ever running console apps on a graphics-laden SGI; > it's only using a > fraction of the machine's capability, which seems a bit > pointless. > > cheers > > Jules From jeffj at panix.com Sat Oct 11 04:57:45 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 05:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: <200810101534.m9AFYsNh081887@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810101534.m9AFYsNh081887@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: replying to: > From: Tom Watson > Subject: Re: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) >> Probably IBM--maybe 1620 SPS II printer mnemonics? > Why right you are. For those of you who aren't reading at home, > these mnemonics mean: > SPIM: Space immediate (1-3 lines) > SKIP: Skip immediate (to carriage control channel) > SKAP: Skip after printing (carriage control) > SPAP: Space after printing (1-3 lines) I can't top that, my Autocoder mnemonics page is out of reach :-( > All of these were control instructions that referenced the printer > (unit #9). The carriage control tape was a standard 12 channel one > (IBM used them on LOTS of printers like 407's and 1403's). And re-used the carriage mechanisms in later machines. The tractor feed and carriage control tape from the 1132 printer was recycled from earlier accounting machines. > You could access any one of the 12 channels. > The 1620 had two indicators for "summary line" (channel 9) > and "end of printable page" (channel 12), > which if you have a hard copy impact printer are probably still there. RPG has program flags triggered by that for subtotals, totals, page footers, etc. They were triggered virtually if the printer was not real-time. I don't recall the model number, but the IBM RJE terminal my high school had around 1976 didn't have a carriage control tape but was programmed with perhaps 4 "jobs" that defined the page size, carriage control stops, horizontal tabs, etc. It was a nice sit-down console with keyboard, chain printer and cabinet on the left with a 8" floppy drive. > Yes, if you skipped to a channel that WASN'T punched, > you fed lots of paper, which is why (if you were smart) > you punched the unused channels on the same line > as the "end of paper" channel (12). I punched them all for top of page. Sigh, I wish I had taken photos of my college's IBM 1130s and all the little things like the bottle of genuine IBM mucilage for gluing the carriage control tape into a loop. I still have a pad of IBM forms for planning printouts, with the carriage control tape along the edge to indicate where to punch the holes. > Oh, standard Fortran: > blank, single space; 1, top of form; 0, double space; > +, overprint (not supported everywhere). and - for triple space. It took me a while to realize that there was nothing magic about the first character as carriage control, so instead of format (" ","and more") I evolved to format (" and more") > One of these days I'll dig out the computer pic I made back > in the late 60's using a video camera connected to an 1130. > 16 levels of gray, and 200x160 or so resolution. Cool for the day! Wow! How was that interfaced? I'm trying to find ANYONE who modded their 1130s, particularly with a SAC (storage access channel) interface. -- jeffj From jeffj at panix.com Sat Oct 11 05:07:44 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:07:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4 In-Reply-To: <200810101534.m9AFYsNh081887@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810101534.m9AFYsNh081887@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: replying to > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4 A friend had a beowulf cluster of IPXs but all running BSD. > I share your IPX affinity. I had one on my desk for a very long > time, when they were state of the art. Wonderful little machine. > And amazingly zippy, from a time when software wasn't so poorly- > written and bloated. I too was very satisfied with the Sun IPX when it was new, particularly with Sun's Answerbook (far better than any other online manual system I used at that time) and programmer's workbench development system. I got to know and like the S-Bus when writing a device driver for an SDLC card. I still remember the phonecall requesting assistance with my device driver. It wouldn't work on the Sun 4m processor. It turns out the processor delays bus writes in order to share the bus with other processors, so I had to add a magic .asm spell to flush the writes. I would've figured that mapping the I/O registers into the memory map would've implied write-thru. -- jeffj From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Oct 12 11:58:07 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:58:07 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0810090304q4ef6c152p120bd54068231ce1@mail.gmail.com> References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA292555@ediserver.EDICONS.local> <11c909eb0810090304q4ef6c152p120bd54068231ce1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F22C9F.1030501@axeside.co.uk> >> I remember taking the first Apple Lisa in the UK to be demonstrated on >> Tomorrows World. >> They had me in the studio as the program went out live. >> I sat on an unused display block about three feet off camera in case of >> problems. >> >> Presenters: Kiren Prendeville (photographic memory), Maggie Philbin >> (very nervous), Judith Hann( Nice lady - brought me a coffee!!) > > Hehe, I remember telling my 'O' Level Computer Studies teacher about that > program the next day, trying to explain the idea of the mouse/GUI combo. > His response? > 'It'll never catch on' You had a teacher for O-level computer studies? Hard luck! A friend and I studied it on our own. This may have been why we did so well (I got an A and he a B). Or maybe it was luck. Most candidates were about 3 generations of technology ahead of the examiners, so grades were pretty random, I think... Philip. From labomb_s at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 15:12:38 2008 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software Message-ID: <459752.33902.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Seems odd - if other formats commonly used on this machine use > standard enough encoding, headers and marks for a PC controller > to read, I wonder why they went with a different format for the > 8-sector variety. Is the 8-sector type older? (ie: perhaps the > changed to a more standard format somewhere along the way?) > It's been many years since I've used my 3b1's, but I seem to recall that while some of the distribution disks are indeed formatted (and I believe that the 3b1 used a 10 sector-per-track format) and can be mounted as per usual, I think that most of the factory distribution disks actually contained raw data created by the Unix cpio utility. These diskettes are essentially a backup set, and cpio treated the drive as a raw character device. Again it's been years, but I don't even recall having to format the disks prior to using cpio to back up data... Scott From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 12 15:15:40 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:15:40 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <299099.36458.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <299099.36458.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <64478604-06E6-47D4-856C-BA8DCC6D88AC@neurotica.com> On Oct 10, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Chris M wrote: > OI but what if you just wanted to play and not run some complicated > simulation BY Crikey! The buy a Windows machine. ;) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Oct 12 15:46:23 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:46:23 -0300 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> Message-ID: <028401c92cab$b56e3c20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > If I had a Cray at my disposal, I'd probably give LCDproc > a try, but that's strictly out of > of the same perverse sense that makes someone want to run > a webserver on a platform that isn't exactly built for "mudane" > sorts of apps. I really don't know what I'd do to "open up the > throttle" on a Cray. This is something that got me wondering: How much processing power a cray (any model/age, just for comparison) has against a current Pentium quad or Turion or whatever? I got a quad core but I'm still unninpressed by it :oP Alexandre From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 12 15:55:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:55:18 -0700 Subject: form feed tapes on printers (was Re: Mona Lisa) In-Reply-To: References: <200810101534.m9AFYsNh081887@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <48F201C6.16899.1FFBBE2E@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2008 at 5:57, Jeff Jonas wrote: > It took me a while to realize that there was nothing magic > about the first character as carriage control, > so instead of > format (" ","and more") > I evolved to > format (" and more") Wow, quoted literals in FORTRAN?! For me, it was pretty much: FORMAT( 1H , 8HAND MORE) CDC FORTRAN had an extension that allowed for: FORMAT( HX X, H*AND MORE*) But that one bit back. Consider that FORTRAN (at least in the II/IV variety) has no reserved words or significant spaces (outside of reserved statement columns and Hollerith literals). Some clever lad at (IIRC) ETH asked what one should make of the statements: DIMENSION FORMAT(10), Y(10) INTEGER X, HX ... 100 FORMAT(HX)=Y(X) That was one PSR that was put on "deferred" status indefinitely. It was suggested that if the FORMAT was referred to in some I/O statement that the ambiguity could be resolved, but there was no rule that FORMAT statements, like statement labels, had to be referenced by anything--i.e., "orphans" were permitted by the language. So the solution wasn't 100 percent reliable. Didn't some of the later train printers take to storing the carriage control tape in (printer) core to avoid problems with wear and breakage? Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 12 16:15:51 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F0E343.8030009@mdrconsult.com> References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> <48F0E343.8030009@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > >> On Friday 10 October 2008 00:24, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > >>> Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, > >>> tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... > >>> > >>> -- Curt > >> :-) > >> > >> Having fun with the new toy? > > > > I'd like to get a hold of these images as well. > > David, do you know whether ImageDisk will image them correctly? I > have them, but the last time I tried to copy them, none of the PC-based > disk imagers would get a reliable image. I was taking backups on the > PC7300 and making dupes there. Tedious, at best. I have no idea. I'm hoping that Al will have something good to say about using a Catweasel to do it. Have you tried dd under some sort of modern Unix? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 12 16:16:13 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:16:13 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <48EF53FC.1000201@gmail.com> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48EF53FC.1000201@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2008, at 9:09 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> As far as "familiar apps", though...it's not exactly the type of >> equipment you'd want to run Firefox on. > > On one hand I suspect the numbers don't make sense in terms of > "familiar app speed" vs. power required to run the machine. On the > other hand, vintage computer collectors don't generally run their > hardware for efficiency reasons anyway :-) Perhaps, but this is hardly a "vintage computer". > Having said that, running "familiar apps" on a supercomputer seems > a bit like only ever running console apps on a graphics-laden SGI; > it's only using a fraction of the machine's capability, which seems > a bit pointless. Completely. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 12 16:18:19 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:18:19 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <874378.89523.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6DF3261E-4E31-4071-9D6F-F6505EC4D4B6@neurotica.com> <41D106E8-0BC3-417F-B91B-7FDB5621D003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2008, at 9:44 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Eight, actually. My employer is about to be, and there are quite >> a few >> others. > > Still, getting long in the tooth. Not sure I agree, there. > Wiki says ten years. It was built in 2000. >> With design cycles measured in years rather than weeks, the >> supercomputer world doesn't consider things "obsolete" as quickly >> as the PC >> world. > > OK, but you have to admit that the SV1 line is at the end of the line. No, the J90 is at the end of the line. ;) >> Indeed, the code is being developed on a 25-year-old super, but >> admittedly only because it's available and compatible. > > Well, that was one of the major selling points of the EL line. Yup. Now THAT is what I'd call "vintage". >> Besides, SV1ex machines are still pretty pricey, and T90s are pretty >> difficult to find, and WAY out of any reasonable price range. > > Is anyone even using a T90, for that matter? They are older than SV1s. Yup. They're also faster than SV1s. There are quite a few C90s in production, and they're even older. I think you're thinking the production HPC world (as opposed to "research HPC") has faster "turnover" than it actually does. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 12 16:18:54 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:18:54 -0700 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <028401c92cab$b56e3c20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <028401c92cab$b56e3c20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <48F2074E.11976.20115815@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Oct 2008 at 17:46, Alexandre Souza wrote: > This is something that got me wondering: How much processing power a > cray (any model/age, just for comparison) has against a current Pentium quad > or Turion or whatever? > > I got a quad core but I'm still unninpressed by it :oP I'm more impressed by the graphics chips, such as the Nvidia GT200 that features SIMT (single instruction multiple task) facilities. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 12 16:26:57 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:26:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <299099.36458.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 10, 8 01:24:47 pm Message-ID: > > OI but what if you just wanted to play and not run some complicated > simulation BY Crikey! Then perhaps you should buy a modern PC and not an older supercomputer -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 12 17:51:11 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081012154802.R60972@shell.lmi.net> > > Why didn't MICROS~1 ever document that the CPM ^C was fully enabled to > > flush the disk buggers? On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > I've made that typo many times, but fortunately I think I've always > caught it before sending the e-mail... Considering the OS, the situation (OS using WRONG buffered content for disk I/O), the possible consequences, and the complete failure to ever document the problem and/or the work-around, I might be able to try to claim that it wasn't a typo :-( From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 12 18:15:57 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:15:57 -0700 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <20081012154802.R60972@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20081012154802.R60972@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48F222BD.17156.207C81FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Oct 2008 at 15:51, Fred Cisin wrote: > Considering the OS, the situation (OS using WRONG buffered content for > disk I/O), the possible consequences, and the complete failure to ever > document the problem and/or the work-around, I might be able to try to > claim that it wasn't a typo :-( No, I don't know. Microsoft does say in the documentation for INT 21H, function 0DH ("Reset disk") that "Function ODH should be part of Control-C interrupt handling routines so that the system is in a known state when an application is terminated." However, ISTR that after some point MS-DOS, this function didn't flush *all* buffers. (I'm quoting from a MS-DOS 2.10 reference). It could be that Ctrl-C, even at a command prompt didn't always do what it was supposed to and Microsoft didn't care to document this "feature". Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 12 18:20:26 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:20:26 +0100 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > Emulith, my ETH / Diser Lilith emulator is nearly complete. > > > However I would really appriciate if someone with a good grasp > of X11/xlib programming could have a look at the sourcecode. > > I am looking at tips to speed up the program, currently it > runs, on my AMD64 2 GHz, at somewhat the speed of the real thing (7 MHz). > There must be ways to speed it up... Don't use xlib. Use a real toolkit. You're wasting a lot of time in both reinventing old wheels and in code terms by handling stuff that's already dealt with by nice quick libraries... Gordon From feldman.r at comcast.net Sun Oct 12 19:03:22 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:03:22 +0000 Subject: Disk Translation software (was Re: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software) Message-ID: <101320080003.9600.48F2904A000DA3F90000258022028887449DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message: 10 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:04:00 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software >I remember some of those, too, and in fact had some in the files section of >my bbs. But I also remember stuff that would deal with "foreign" formats, >in particular there was "Media Master" and "Uniform". The former was simply >a file transfer program, while the latter would actually "mount" a foreign >format disk under an otherwise unused drive letter, both of which I had >occasion to use under CP/M. I'm pretty sure that at least MM was available >under DOS as well, dunno about Uniform. I have MS-DOS versions of Media Master and Uniform, if anyone is interested in a copy. As I remember Media Master, it would let you set up a drive as the foreign type, to read/write/format a disk (except you could not format a Kaypro and one other type using MM). Bob From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 12 19:14:51 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:14:51 -0500 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> <200810100128.16987.rtellason@verizon.net> <48F0E343.8030009@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <48F292FB.1060505@mdrconsult.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> David Griffith wrote: >>> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> >>>> On Friday 10 October 2008 00:24, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>>>> Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, >>>>> tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... >>>>> >>>>> -- Curt >>>> :-) >>>> >>>> Having fun with the new toy? >>> I'd like to get a hold of these images as well. >> David, do you know whether ImageDisk will image them correctly? I >> have them, but the last time I tried to copy them, none of the PC-based >> disk imagers would get a reliable image. I was taking backups on the >> PC7300 and making dupes there. Tedious, at best. > > I have no idea. I'm hoping that Al will have something good to say about > using a Catweasel to do it. Have you tried dd under some sort of modern > Unix? Yes, with no useful result. At one time I had the documentation bookmarked that explained this, but that mirror is gone and I don't remember enough to find it. I'll continue to look. I do have a system set up for ImageDisk that's proven capable of reading and writing SD media, so sometime this week I'll plug that in and try it out. Doc Shipley From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 19:19:46 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:19:46 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200810101443.KAA12579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> <200810101443.KAA12579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48F29422.5090702@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >>> It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in >>> existence. At least for even moderately technical people. >> There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people (cf >> Unix Hater's Handbook). > > Even aside from that, I'm not convinced. I think Symbolics Genera is > arguably more programmer-friendly, though that could just be because I > find Lisp a much nicer language than C. (There may be even better > OSes; that's just what I have personal experience with.) I find programming under batch-mode OS to be more pleasurable. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Sun Oct 12 20:38:37 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:38:37 -0600 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:19:46 -0400. <48F29422.5090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <48F29422.5090702 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > I find programming under batch-mode OS to be more pleasurable. ...and I find batch mode to be highly frustrating. I learned computing in an interactive environment on terminals and I never want to go to a batch environment, I always prefer the immediate feedback of interaction. Sometimes even waiting for a compiled language pisses me off :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Oct 12 20:39:37 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:39:37 -0600 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:59:58 +0200. <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <48F2492E.4020002 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > Emulith, my ETH / Diser Lilith emulator is nearly complete. > > However I would really appriciate if someone with a good grasp > of X11/xlib programming could have a look at the sourcecode. > > I am looking at tips to speed up the program, currently it > runs, on my AMD64 2 GHz, at somewhat the speed of the real thing (7 MHz). > There must be ways to speed it up... > > Any takers ? I can take a look, email me the URL where I can get the source (or better yet the subversion/CVS URL). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 12 20:49:01 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:49:01 -0600 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F2A90D.8050701@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > ...and I find batch mode to be highly frustrating. I learned > computing in an interactive environment on terminals and I never want > to go to a batch environment, I always prefer the immediate feedback > of interaction. Sometimes even waiting for a compiled language pisses > me off :-). > But back then ... you could go for a coffee break. Now days you have to baby sit the computer when it reboots, after a interactive edit under win-*insert year here* From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 12 21:08:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:08:18 -0700 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <48F24B22.25361.211A4A8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Oct 2008 at 19:38, Richard wrote: > ...and I find batch mode to be highly frustrating. I learned > computing in an interactive environment on terminals and I never want > to go to a batch environment, I always prefer the immediate feedback > of interaction. Sometimes even waiting for a compiled language pisses > me off :-). Another case of WYKIWYL - what you know is what you like. Even today, with all of the fancy development environments, I develop essentially in batch mode. Lots of desk and paper-and-pencil work before writing the first line of code. When a snake shows up, go back to the desk and run the code through in your head until things make sense. I find using an interactive IDE to be almost counterproductive--I can't keep my thoughts as well organized. When Sunnyvale was doing OS work for the CDC STAR-100, we used a couple of hardware emulators, STAR-1Bs, that ran at perhaps 1/100- 1/500 the speed of the real thing. Used the same peripherals and stations, just a great big pile of microcode to do all of the CPU stuff. (CDC eventually disposed of the things with two CEs working for a week with bolt-cutters and sledge hammers reducing them both to scrap. I still have a rectifier and heatsink from the PSU). Making an OS change and recompiling the kernel was a "submit your changes before you leave at night and hope the all-night compile works--and the machine stays up". Boot your new kernel, watch the system crash and burn and figure out why just in time for you to submit your changes for the next all-night compile. The only alternative was to hope you could snag some time from one of the STARs at LLL. Or catch a plane to Arden Hills and use the STAR at ADL. You learned to be very careful--and very patient. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Oct 12 21:17:26 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:17:26 +0000 Subject: Batch vs Interactive (was Re: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <48F29422.5090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081013021726.GB25970@usap.gov> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 07:38:37PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <48F29422.5090702 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > I find programming under batch-mode OS to be more pleasurable. > > ...and I find batch mode to be highly frustrating. I learned > computing in an interactive environment on terminals and I never want > to go to a batch environment, I always prefer the immediate feedback > of interaction. Sometimes even waiting for a compiled language pisses > me off :-). The one assignment I ever turned in late for my one FORTRAN class in college was because of the batch environment and job priority scheduling. I had a typo in a line-spacing specification, so my output wasn't identical to the format required by the assignment, and I had to resubmit my batch job. Normally, this is no problem - we were running on an Amdahl (OSU in the mid-1980s), and we were using WATIV or WATV (WAT-four or WAT-five), IIRC, and *most* assignments for my 200-level class were passed through the "quick-job compiler" - the highest priority with some miniscule CPU limit. The one late assignment was in FORTRAN-77 at six priority levels lower. I started writing the assignment the day before it was due (again, normally not a problem), but because I had to compile it 3 times to get the bugs out, it took 6 hours each time to bump up one priority level per hour to finally get submitted. It was my one experience being locked into a batch environment and it was quite unpleasant. Interesting, but aggravating. At least I knew where the 3270 terminals were so I didn't have to use the WYLBUR line editing terminals. By the time I took FORTRAN in school, I'd already been using FORTRAN on VAXen and PDP-11s and PDP-8s, with screen editors (TECO w/VTEDIT macro or EDT), so stepping back to a line editor wasn't my idea of fun. They had recently (within 5 years) eliminated punch cards as a primary submission method, so I've done it, but wasn't _forced_ into it. Again, interesing, but occasionally aggravating. I never wanted to run any programs on my own that needed the resources of the Amdahl, so I was perfectly happy to have a PDP-11 to myself or to share a VAX with 50 co-workers, even if the VAX did swap and slow down when more than about a dozen folks were sitting in MAIL.EXE. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Oct-2008 at 02:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.8 F (-48.2 C) Windchill -77.8 F (-61.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.5 kts Grid 65 Barometer 671.9 mb (10935 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 12 21:25:38 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:25:38 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> References: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <48F2B1A2.5010509@brouhaha.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > most likely there is some other factor in the 8-sector format > which makes it incompatible with the PC disk controller... I don't remember the particulars of the 3b1 disk formats, but they used a 2797 FDC, which is certainly capable of reading and writing some disk formats that the 765 FDCs can't deal with. As you say, there must be more different than just the 8 sectors per track, as IBM DOS 1.0 used 8 sectors per track on the PC. Possibly they are using a non-standard code for the sector length in the address fields. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 12 22:03:33 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:03:33 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <48F2A90D.8050701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48F2A90D.8050701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <56980C8A-5C25-4A48-A23F-780FADCEE1BA@neurotica.com> On Oct 12, 2008, at 9:49 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> ...and I find batch mode to be highly frustrating. I learned >> computing in an interactive environment on terminals and I never want >> to go to a batch environment, I always prefer the immediate feedback >> of interaction. Sometimes even waiting for a compiled language >> pisses >> me off :-). >> > But back then ... you could go for a coffee break. > Now days you have to baby sit the computer when it reboots, after a > interactive edit under win-*insert year here* Heh...*you* do. I don't put up with that crap; I don't have the patience! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 12 22:22:24 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:22:24 -0600 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <56980C8A-5C25-4A48-A23F-780FADCEE1BA@neurotica.com> References: <48F2A90D.8050701@jetnet.ab.ca> <56980C8A-5C25-4A48-A23F-780FADCEE1BA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48F2BEF0.30804@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Heh...*you* do. I don't put up with that crap; I don't have the > patience! > I don't have the patience to try several versions of linux to have one that likes my hardware. Oddly I find linux a pain since that is becoming too graphic for my liking. Still I think things have be come far worse since Dynamic link libraries have come into effect. You never know what is linked in. I guess I used to small programs and memory spaces. > -Dave > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 22:23:58 2008 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:23:58 -0500 Subject: Mona Lisa In-Reply-To: <200810111245.m9BCjFDh023888@mail.rickmurphy.net> References: <48EE4257.50108@bitsavers.org> <48F02156.5010301@world.std.com> <200810111245.m9BCjFDh023888@mail.rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <624966d60810122023u262a5f74q889bcbcd68ba7158@mail.gmail.com> Great war story. That was not my favorite printer to work on. One of our cuseomers had the moon and it was very nice. I've seen a lot of others, and at one time had a tape loaded with them. I'll look for it when i get moved back in. Paul On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 7:45 AM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 11:45 PM 10/10/2008, Megan Gentry wrote: > >> I had a number of those pictures on a tape I loaned to someone... >> > > I have a tape somewhere with a bunch of those as well. I really should try > to read it and see if it's still OK. > > A related war story (software breaking hardware): way back when (late '70s) > I was printing the moon image (something like 4 panels wide by six panels > high) on what I think was a DEC LP05 - a drum printer. This printer had > hammers that fired to hit the ribbon at the right time when a character on > the drum was in the right position. The printer had 66 hammers on a shuttle > that moved back and forth to print even then odd characters across the 132 > column page. > > Normally, you feed it a line and it prints half the columns, then shuttles > over and prints the next half. Linefeed, print half, then shuttle again. > Well, these printer images were heavily overprinted with lots of blank > spaces, so you spent a lot of time shuttling the heads back and forth while > printing just a few characters. > > So, I got smart. Wrote a program to convert the input so that the printer > was fed all of the even characters (with spaces for the odd ones), > overprinting as necessary, then fed the odd characters. I did this to save > all the time spent shifting the hammer bank back and forth. It would take > less time to feed to the printer, and would print a lot more quickly. > > Well, I fired it up and sent the output to the printer, which printed VERY > loudly for about a minute then blew the circuit breaker. Too much, too fast, > I guess. :-) > -Rick > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 12 22:36:10 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:36:10 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <48F2BEF0.30804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48F2A90D.8050701@jetnet.ab.ca> <56980C8A-5C25-4A48-A23F-780FADCEE1BA@neurotica.com> <48F2BEF0.30804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9259AC00-ECA4-4A1E-AB8F-A12E088A9DB0@neurotica.com> On Oct 12, 2008, at 11:22 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Heh...*you* do. I don't put up with that crap; I don't have the >> patience! >> > I don't have the patience to try several versions of linux to have > one that likes > my hardware. Oddly I find linux a pain since that is becoming too > graphic for > my liking. Still I think things have be come far worse since > Dynamic link libraries > have come into effect. You never know what is linked in. > I guess I used to small programs and memory spaces. It's only graphic if you tell it to be. I manage about half a dozen Linux systems (for an employer) and none of them have had monitors attached to them since they were installed. =) But for *real* work, I run Solaris on Sun hardware. No messing around; I have work to do. My PDP-11s are for hobby stuff...the tools for work WILL *just work*, or they will hit the trash. Zero tolerance, zero patience. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 12 22:41:05 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:41:05 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2008, at 9:38 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in >> existence. At least for even moderately technical people. > > There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people > (cf Unix Hater's Handbook). Yep. I've known quite a few of those guys. In every instance, they've been the "must find something to complain about" type. > Personally, I fell in love with UNIX from the first day I > ran across it in 1984, but the 36-bit crowd was, um, > resistant. Same here, in (I think) 1986. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Oct 12 23:08:31 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 04:08:31 +0000 Subject: PET composite video adapter Message-ID: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Hi, All, I'm just finishing up assembling a PET "Video Mixer" from an old JPG of a much older scan of said circuit. This particular one is annotated as being from the "Commodore Pet Users Club of England - Newsletter issues 1 & 2, page 9". It's the variant with three NOR gates ('LS02), with a few resistors, capacitors, and a diode. The part that I'm curious about is how much variation is allowed in the caps. The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that large lying around. The output of that gate (which NORs the inverted vertical sync with the massaged horizontal sync) feeds unto a "47mf" tantalum cap (then pulled down to ground by a diode, and wire-ored to inverted video out/composite out via a 470 Ohm resistor). I have 47uF caps, but that seems pretty large to me. I have a basic understanding of RS-170-type video, and I know this circuit is probably going to produce a signal that "modern" IC-based video inputs will not like (much the same way the classic RCA CDP1861 video behaves), but fortunately, I have an old B&W security-type monitor to plug this into (which has already been tested with a CDP1861). I'm just curious why the caps are so large. I think I get what's going on with this circuit (the way it combines the syncs and video), and I've heard of similar circuits being used successfully by others, so with luck, it'll work the first time. Oh... in case anyone is wondering why I'm bothering, I have a couple of naked PET boards here, no chasses, no CBM monitors. I did cobble up a DC-based harness (+5, +12, -5V, no tape motor voltage, but then no tape drive, either) for testing, and I do get "interesting" looking pips on a 'scope when I check for video, so I'm hopeful that the boards are working well enough to at least give me a screen full of _something_, even if it's the classic "garbage" screen you get when the machine isn't running well enough to zero video RAM. So has anyone here made an external PET video adapter and have any experiences to share about what worked and what might not have worked? Thanks, -ethan P.S. - I found another type of composite circuit using a CD4011 as an inverter and a CD4066 to mix the signals, but for some reason I don't have all the components labelled on my drawing - the cap on hsync in particular. One interesting variation with that one is that the 'LS02 circuit has a 1.5K pulldown on hsync between the cap and the gate, while the CD4011/CD4066 circuit has a 10K pot. How much adjustment on hsync is likely to be needed between the PET and the first gate of the composite circuit? -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Oct-2008 at 03:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.4 F (-48.0 C) Windchill -76.4 F (-60.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.1 kts Grid 65 Barometer 671.7 mb (10943 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 13 00:43:45 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:43:45 -0600 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:49:01 -0600. <48F2A90D.8050701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <48F2A90D.8050701 at jetnet.ab.ca>, "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > Richard wrote: > > ...and I find batch mode to be highly frustrating. I learned > > computing in an interactive environment on terminals and I never want > > to go to a batch environment, I always prefer the immediate feedback > > of interaction. Sometimes even waiting for a compiled language pisses > > me off :-). > > > But back then ... you could go for a coffee break. > Now days you have to baby sit the computer when it reboots, after a > interactive edit under win-*insert year here* Honestly, I have no idea what you people do with your Windows installations that makes them ticking time bombs. Maybe you should just stop doing whatever you are doing to your Windows installations if that's how it always ends up. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Oct 12 17:35:06 2008 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:35:06 -0500 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+ Message-ID: Now that my VT220 is working again after I replaced the defective LK201 keyboard, the 11/23+ (4 Mb, two RL02's) it's attached to has died!! Last week, although the keyboard was dead, it would come up as far as the prompt: 2048. KW START? to which I couldn't enter the usual "Y", of course. Now nothing comes up at all and the RUN lamp lights for about 3 seconds, then goes out. About 6-8 seconds later it flashes briefly. Entering various things from the keyboard e.g. Y, 773000G etc. has no apparent effect. Installing the "Field Service Test Jumper" (console port loopback) causes characters to echo to the screen, so the VT220 and port are ok. I pulled all the boards except the CPU - no change. +5 and +12 supplies (measured on the board) are spot-on according to my Fluke DVM. LED's lit on the KDF-11BA board are: green (Power), and D4 and D5 (the two LSB red ones). If the HALT front panel switch is down, then all four red LED's stay on after flipping the restart switch. Can someone point me to a table of the diagnostic LED meanings? The KDF-11BA User Manual mentions them but I can't find a list of just what they indicate. thanks for any helpful hints -Charles From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 12 19:30:58 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200810130033.UAA13852@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Emulith, my ETH / Diser Lilith emulator is nearly complete. > However I would really appriciate if someone with a good grasp of > X11/xlib programming could have a look at the sourcecode. I'm up for it. Jos, I note you're @bluewin.ch. There's someone else @bluewin.ch who had trouble sending to me; if you try to send off-list and get rejected, try mouse at netbsd.org - that's probably the least-filtered of my addresses, based on received spam load. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Oct 12 19:34:04 2008 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:34:04 -0500 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+, FIXED :) Message-ID: I found the table to interpret the LEDs, buried around page 256 of the KDF11-BA manual. It told me that 0011 is: waiting for SLU Transmit. Odd, since there's no handshaking on the console lines :) That pointed me immediately to the console serial port, since I already knew the VT220 and cable were working via the loopback test. It didn't take long to discover (with my trusty Tek 545) that there was no clock on either UART in transmit or receive. The 5.0688 MHz oscillator was working (surprisingly - I figured the recent move had broken the crystal), and its signal appeared normal at jumper J21/20. But there was barely a wiggle on the two gates that it connected to. Poor continuity also, which improved when pushing sideways on wirewrap pin J21. Close visual inspection with bright light and magnifying glass didn't show much. I resoldered the pins and voila - RUN light on, startup message on terminal, booted from DL0: etc. So it was just a bad factory solder joint from the 1980's... Sorry I panicked :) -Charles From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 12 19:45:47 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Emulith, my ETH / Diser Lilith emulator [...] > Don't use xlib. Use a real toolkit. You're wasting a lot of time in > both reinventing old wheels and in code terms by handling stuff > that's already dealt with by nice quick libraries... Xlib-based code can't be faster than toolkit-based code, unless the former has inefficiencies; this is obvious because the tookits themselves are Xlib-based. (Well, unless the toolkit is written in a more efficient language than the implementation; since Xlib is a C binding, this is unlikely to be the case, especially here.) There is some force to the wheel-reinvention argument, but it's also often the case that the wheels provided by the toolkit are a bad match to the application (to varying degrees), so it's a question of whether it's better to build a wheel that does just what the application wants or to use a preexisting wheel that doesn't quite. Without knowing more about the specifics of this case, I couldn't offer an opinion on which this is. Also, the toolkits often are themselves pretty horrible code; I recall the shudders that came over me, years ago, when I looked at the Xt API and saw that it depended on casting from a pointer to an integer and back to preserve the pointer (or was it the other way around, integer to pointer and back? I forget). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 13 02:23:07 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:23:07 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48F2F75B.70700@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/10/2008 05:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that > large lying around. The output of that gate (which NORs the inverted > vertical sync with the massaged horizontal sync) feeds unto a "47mf" > tantalum cap (then pulled down to ground by a diode, and wire-ored to > inverted video out/composite out via a 470 Ohm resistor). I have 47uF caps, > but that seems pretty large to me. I'm not familiar with that circuit, but I wonder if the scan or JPG has made an 'n' look like an 'm' and turned 2200nf into 2200mf? 2.2mfd (ie 2.2uF) is not uncommon for a non-polarised cap, being used in some telephone circuits. On the other hand, 47uF is more reasonable than 47nF for a tantalum. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Oct 13 03:21:18 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:21:18 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48F304FE.8010506@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm just curious why the caps are so large. I think I get what's going > on with this circuit (the way it combines the syncs and video), and I've > heard of similar circuits being used successfully by others, so with > luck, it'll work the first time. Because that's what the original "designer" had lying around? If they're just coupling caps, they're probably not terribly critical. Even if they're timing caps you probably won't need to be *too* picky. Old CCTV monitors work just great even with really horrible video. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Oct 13 03:34:22 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:34:22 +0100 Subject: Unusual software carriers. (Was :Vinyl Data- Classic Computers ) In-Reply-To: <48F22C9F.1030501@axeside.co.uk> References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA292555@ediserver.EDICONS.local> <11c909eb0810090304q4ef6c152p120bd54068231ce1@mail.gmail.com> <48F22C9F.1030501@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <48F3080E.6040300@gjcp.net> Philip Belben wrote: > You had a teacher for O-level computer studies? Hard luck! A friend > and I studied it on our own. This may have been why we did so well (I > got an A and he a B). Or maybe it was luck. Most candidates were about > 3 generations of technology ahead of the examiners, so grades were > pretty random, I think... Me too... Although the school I went to had a small "computer room" full of BBC Micros, I wasn't allowed to use any of them because they didn't have a computing teacher, or indeed any spare teacher who could just supervise. So I did my computing O-grade studies at home with my ZX Spectrum (careful examination of the "rules" said that it didn't actually matter *what* you wrote the practical code on), and submitted it as Spectrum BASIC, pseudocode and roughly transcribed by hand into BBC Basic with "This isn't tested but might be about right, barring any Atom-isms" caveats. The actual report I wrote up on a Sirius 1 borrowed from the company my Dad worked for. I was more proud of the homebrew printer port and printing software for the Spectrum than the coursework. That was my first "banging hardware" code, really, and it worked quite well. I just used the ROM routines to detokenise the code, and rattled it out to the printer instead of the screen. Oh, and I got a 2. Not bad considering how incredibly lazy and disinclined to do any school work I was (still am, really). As a sidenote, when I went up north to visit my Mum a couple of weeks ago, most of the 1970s-built main building of the school had been knocked down. The week before, they'd run a "last tour" before the JCBs moved in. I kind of wish I'd gone. I know a guy rescued a bunch of Mac Classics and Acorn Archimedeses though ;-) Gordon From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Oct 13 03:47:02 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:47:02 +0000 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F2F75B.70700@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <48F2F75B.70700@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20081013084702.GA27347@usap.gov> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 08:23:07AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 13/10/2008 05:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > >non-polarized cap.... > >a "47mf" tantalum cap... > > I'm not familiar with that circuit, but I wonder if the scan or JPG has > made an 'n' look like an 'm' and turned 2200nf into 2200mf? 2.2mfd (ie > 2.2uF) is not uncommon for a non-polarised cap, being used in some > telephone circuits. On the other hand, 47uF is more reasonable than > 47nF for a tantalum. I can't be certain, of course, but enlarging the scan to ludicrous size seems to show a clearly-rendered central descending stroke on the 'm'... it _really_ looks like 2200mf and 47mf. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Oct-2008 at 08:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -56.4 F (-49.1 C) Windchill -82.9 F (-63.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.0 kts Grid 65 Barometer 670.5 mb (10989 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 13 09:35:12 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:35:12 +0000 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch><48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <101320081435.3124.48F35CA000030E2400000C3422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: der Mouse > > There is some force to the wheel-reinvention argument, but it's also > often the case that the wheels provided by the toolkit are a bad match > to the application (to varying degrees), so it's a question of whether If no one reinvented the wheel, we wouldn't have the pneumatic tire, and I'd hate to think what my Miata would drive like on stone wheels. > Also, the toolkits often are themselves pretty horrible code; I recall > the shudders that came over me, years ago, when I looked at the Xt API Athena widgets was an improvement over all of its _successors_. (But then my taste has been spoiled by exposure to Plan 9 and Inferno. I won't ever see much beauty in any of the mainstream windowing systems again. Kind of like after TeX, everything else makes me physically nauseous to one degree or another.) BLS From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 13 11:11:47 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:11:47 -0400 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >> Emulith, my ETH / Diser Lilith emulator is nearly complete. >> >> >> However I would really appriciate if someone with a good grasp >> of X11/xlib programming could have a look at the sourcecode. > > Don't use xlib. Use a real toolkit. You're wasting a lot of time in > both reinventing old wheels and in code terms by handling stuff that's > already dealt with by nice quick libraries... Seconded. Go with something like wxWidgets or QT-4. I wasted many months reinventing the wheel, yes it's cool to write stuff raw in xlib, but it is a huge waste of time in the end. I had to rip out all that junk and redo it properly, and I don't regret that at all. Grab the wxWidgets book and go to town, you'll never look back. From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 13 11:25:00 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:25:00 -0400 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <101320081435.3124.48F35CA000030E2400000C3422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch><48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <101320081435.3124.48F35CA000030E2400000C3422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <48F3765C.50309@arachelian.com> Brian L. Stuart wrote: > From: der Mouse > >> There is some force to the wheel-reinvention argument, but it's also >> often the case that the wheels provided by the toolkit are a bad match >> to the application (to varying degrees), so it's a question of whether >> > > If no one reinvented the wheel, we wouldn't have the > pneumatic tire, and I'd hate to think what my Miata > would drive like on stone wheels. > It's already been done, and now there are standard wheels (GTK, QT, etc.). Using an existing system allows your application to function well, and allows you to think about more important things than "Gee, this thing would look better if I moved it 3 pixels to the left and changed the color a bit. Oh well, I'll have edit the code some more because I didn't make a facility to do that." Then, you have the disadvantage (some would say advantage, but I'd say that's misguided) of having your app look and behave completely different from everything else the end user runs. These days, end users expect well behaved applications that are similar in their interfaces. Besides that, there's a huge added bonus to using wheels that already exist, if you use the right kind, your app suddenly can run on OS X, Linux, *BSD, and, yes, even windows (assuming the rest of it is portable enough). Yes, it's perfectly fine to reinvent the wheel if you're in the business of making wheels. But if you're making cars, it's in your best interest to use standard wheels. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 13 11:46:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:46:01 -0700 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48F318D9.24261.243DE11A@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2008 at 4:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that > large lying around. The output of that gate (which NORs the inverted > vertical sync with the massaged horizontal sync) feeds unto a "47mf" > tantalum cap (then pulled down to ground by a diode, and wire-ored to > inverted video out/composite out via a 470 Ohm resistor). I have 47uF caps, > but that seems pretty large to me. That 2200mf is off by at least 3 orders of magnitude. 0.22 uF is probably more like it. The 47 uF might be okay, but I suspect that 4.7 uF may also work just fine. (But I don't have your circuit, so it's really difficult to say for certain). It's been a long time since I wired up one of these, but ISTR that I didn't find component values to be very critical. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 13 12:00:06 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:00:06 -0600 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:11:47 -0400. <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> Message-ID: In article <48F37343.8020303 at arachelian.com>, Ray Arachelian writes: > Seconded. Go with something like wxWidgets or QT-4. I can probably contribute a wxWdigets port. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 13 12:00:49 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:00:49 +0000 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F3765C.50309@arachelian.com> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch><48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG><101320081435.3124.48F35CA000030E2400000C3422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> <48F3765C.50309@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <101320081700.12020.48F37EC100064E4B00002EF422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > Yes, it's perfectly fine to reinvent the wheel if you're in the business > of making wheels. But if you're making cars, it's in your best interest > to use standard wheels. I don't disagree with this point on principle. However, characterizations such as: > Using an existing system allows your application to function well, and > different from everything else the end user runs. These days, end users > expect well behaved applications that are similar in their interfaces. > exist, if you use the right kind, your app suddenly can run on [mainstream OSs] define a particular part of the computing world. Following the car analogy, this is the part of the world that is designing cars for the mainstream audience, e.g. SUVs. I can't say for sure about everyone else, but I know that I'd have a hard time staying intellectually engaged in that part of the world: the "bread and butter programming" a co-worker once called it. I think I'd go crazy if I couldn't at least sometimes be a part of the world that does ask, "what if the wheel were a sphere instead of a torus?" As it is, the computing world has become so bland and homogeneous that I have my doubts that I'd get into this field if I was just starting my career. None of that is to say that there's anything wrong with the mainstream computing world or with programmers who are good at the bread and butter programming. It's just not for me, and there's nothing wrong with my computing world either. To butcher Shakespeare a little: There is more in the computing world than is dreamt of in the PC philosophy. ObClassic: After all, it's playing with, studying, and learning from the inventive and unusual that attracts a lot of us to classic computing. So this is a setting where I'm a little surprised to hear "don't reinvent the wheel." BLS From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Oct 13 12:49:29 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:49:29 -0400 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+, FIXED :) Message-ID: <8CAFB732D4ADA75-11AC-93@WEBMAIL-DG08.sim.aol.com> 2048KW Start? That must be a really old set of proms on that 11/23+ The newer 11/23+ proms will give you a 9-step memory test, and a much more interactive menu. Or do you have an MXV11 or BDV11 that you're using instead of the on-board boot proms? T From g-wright at att.net Mon Oct 13 13:01:24 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:01:24 +0000 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F2B1A2.5010509@brouhaha.com> References: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> <48F2B1A2.5010509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <101320081801.4500.48F38CF4000B85440000119422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Eric Smith : -------------- > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > most likely there is some other factor in the 8-sector format > > which makes it incompatible with the PC disk controller... > > I don't remember the particulars of the 3b1 disk formats, but they used > a 2797 FDC, which is certainly capable of reading and writing some disk > formats that the 765 FDCs can't deal with. As you say, there must be > more different than just the 8 sectors per track, as IBM DOS 1.0 used 8 > sectors per track on the PC. > > Possibly they are using a non-standard code for the sector length in the > address fields. > > Eric > When I image disked my set, it found both 8 and 10 sector disks. The 3B1 can format in either 8 or 10 sectors. It looks like the main software is all in 10 sector disks and the other add on software is in 8 sectors. The 2 disks that failed to image where from the same add on package, don't remember which and they showed up as 9 sectors ??? Anadisk finds the same and can read the first 8 sectors and errors on the 9th. I might try tonight to reload the OS on another drive to see what the Images them selves produce. Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 13 13:15:05 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:15:05 +0000 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <101320081801.4500.48F38CF4000B85440000119422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> <48F2B1A2.5010509@brouhaha.com> <101320081801.4500.48F38CF4000B85440000119422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <101320081815.14339.48F39029000B4EAF0000380322243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > When I image disked my set, it found both 8 and 10 sector disks. The 3B1 can format in either 8 or 10 sectors. It looks like the main software is all in 10 > sector disks and the other add on software is in 8 sectors. The 2 disks that failed to > image > where from the same add on package, don't remember which and they showed > up as 9 sectors ??? Anadisk finds the same and can read the first 8 sectors and > errors on the 9th. As I recall, earlier distributions of the system were all on 8 sectored disks. But as the distributions grew, they started using 10 sectors to fit more on the disk. But I do remember that at least one of the disks was always 8 sectors. I'm inclined to say that might have had to do with the on-board boot code. The PROM code may not have been able to boot from a 10 sectored disk, but that's as much or more speculation as it is memory. BLS From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 13:24:54 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:24:54 -0700 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+, FIXED :) In-Reply-To: <8CAFB732D4ADA75-11AC-93@WEBMAIL-DG08.sim.aol.com> References: <8CAFB732D4ADA75-11AC-93@WEBMAIL-DG08.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90810131124ga5c783bpc58f5032a6406dc1@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 10:49 AM, wrote: > > That must be a really old set of proms on that 11/23+ > > The newer 11/23+ proms will give you a 9-step memory test, > and a much more interactive menu. > Are these the most recent versions of 11/23+ proms? I have an 11/23+ that I was going to update. Are both of these versions compatible with all M8189 boards and would the M8189-BG version be the better image to use? 23-339E2 23-340E2 M8189-BA 8K KDF-11BA (PDP11/23+) boot 0 See also 380/381,183/184, 238/239,453/454 23-340E2 23-339E2 M8189-BA 8K KDF-11BA (PDP11/23+) boot 1 See also 380/381,183/184, 238/239,453/454 23-380E4 23-381E4 M8189-BG 8K KDF11-BG (uPDP11/23) boot 0 See also 339/340,183/184, 238/239,453/454 KDF11-B Maintenance Manual calls this -BH 23-381E4 23-380E4 M8189-BG 8K KDF11-BG (uPDP11/23) boot 1 See also 339/340, 183/184 238/239,453/454 KDF11-B Maintenance Manual calls this -BH From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 13 13:15:31 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:15:31 -0500 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software Message-ID: At 1:59 -0500 10/10/08, Curt wrote: >Looking for diskette images of the OS, development, >tcp/ip/ethernet, diagnostic diskette, etc.... > >-- Curt I have one, with a fair amount of stuff on its hard drive. It's buried and I won't be able to get to it for at least a month, probably after Christmas. Please ping me again in December, and I'll try to bump it up the priority. I'm going to feel very stupid if the hard drive won't come up when I get to it... -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Oct 13 13:32:08 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:32:08 +0200 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <48F39428.3060605@bluewin.ch> cq Xlib vs. the various Widget toolboxes My GUI needs were very limited : This is the main reason I could get away not using a toolkit. check on ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp for some screenshots of the emulator. Codesize for the GUI section is around 100 lines of C, time to implemement probably less than would be needed to master a widget set. And yes, I liked the idea of trying to limit myself to Xlib. Anyhow the interesting part should be the Lilith emulation itself, and writing documentation and preparing diskimages will be enough work. But, yes, if I ever port this to C++ I will go for WxWidgets. Jos From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Oct 13 13:48:14 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:48:14 +0000 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F318D9.24261.243DE11A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <48F318D9.24261.243DE11A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081013184814.GA12193@usap.gov> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 09:46:01AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2008 at 4:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > > non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that > > large lying around. The output of that gate (which NORs the inverted > > vertical sync with the massaged horizontal sync) feeds unto a "47mf" > > tantalum cap (then pulled down to ground by a diode, and wire-ored to > > inverted video out/composite out via a 470 Ohm resistor). I have 47uF caps, > > but that seems pretty large to me. > > That 2200mf is off by at least 3 orders of magnitude. 0.22 uF is > probably more like it. I can entirely believe that. What I'm wondering is if the original article should have read 2200pF. > The 47 uF might be okay, but I suspect that > 4.7 uF may also work just fine. (But I don't have your circuit, so > it's really difficult to say for certain). Agreed. > It's been a long time since I wired up one of these, but ISTR that I > didn't find component values to be very critical. Glad to hear it. I'm going to build the first version on a proto board so it will be easy to swap out caps. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Oct-2008 at 18:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.7 F (-47.6 C) Windchill -84.3 F (-64.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.9 kts Grid 52 Barometer 668.5 mb (11065 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 13 14:21:11 2008 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:21:11 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48F39FA7.3000602@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > P.S. - I found another type of composite circuit using a CD4011 as an > inverter and a CD4066 to mix the signals, Sounds like the circuit I have here from "The PET Revealed". > but for some reason I don't > have all the components labelled on my drawing - the cap on hsync in > particular. It's not labeled on the diagram in the book, nor does the text say what value it is. > One interesting variation with that one is that the 'LS02 > circuit has a 1.5K pulldown on hsync between the cap and the gate, > while the CD4011/CD4066 circuit has a 10K pot. How much adjustment on > hsync is likely to be needed between the PET and the first gate of the > composite circuit? The text in the book says "You may encounter problems with the horizontal hold, but these can usually be cured by adjusting R1", and goes on to speak of low quality monitors or converted TVs... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Oct 13 14:26:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:26:08 +0000 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F39FA7.3000602@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <48F39FA7.3000602@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20081013192608.GA14669@usap.gov> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 08:21:11PM +0100, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >P.S. - I found another type of composite circuit using a CD4011 as an > >inverter and a CD4066 to mix the signals, > > Sounds like the circuit I have here from "The PET Revealed". That is very likely, though I probably found a copy of just the diagram somewhere on the web. I have a copy of the book at home, but I didn't bring it with me. > > but for some reason I don't > >have all the components labelled on my drawing - the cap on hsync in > >particular. > > It's not labeled on the diagram in the book, nor does the text say what > value it is. That would explain why my schematic doesn't have it, then. > > One interesting variation with that one is that the 'LS02 > >circuit has a 1.5K pulldown on hsync between the cap and the gate, > >while the CD4011/CD4066 circuit has a 10K pot. How much adjustment on > >hsync is likely to be needed between the PET and the first gate of the > >composite circuit? > > The text in the book says "You may encounter problems with the > horizontal hold, but these can usually be cured by adjusting R1", and > goes on to speak of low quality monitors or converted TVs... Ah. Thanks much for that. I have plenty of small PCB pots... easy to fit on in. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Oct-2008 at 19:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.8 F (-48.2 C) Windchill -82.7 F (-63.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.0 kts Grid 52 Barometer 668.4 mb (11069 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Oct 13 14:30:22 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:30:22 +0100 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F39428.3060605@bluewin.ch> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> <48F39428.3060605@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <48F3A1CE.1020807@gjcp.net> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > cq Xlib vs. the various Widget toolboxes > > My GUI needs were very limited : This is the main reason I could get > away not using a toolkit. > check on ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp for some screenshots of the > emulator. > > Codesize for the GUI section is around 100 lines of C, time to > implemement probably less than would be needed to master a widget set. > And yes, I liked the idea of trying to limit myself to Xlib. Well, doing it for the intellectual challenge has its own merits. > Anyhow the interesting part should be the Lilith emulation itself, and > writing documentation and preparing diskimages will be enough work. > > But, yes, if I ever port this to C++ I will go for WxWidgets. Try to keep the emulation and presentation separate. That way when the time comes to port it to other enviroments it will be easier to update when wxWidgets changes, or if you want to use a different toolkit. Gordon From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Oct 13 15:05:07 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:05:07 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... Message-ID: Anybody recognize the board in this lot: 120314777595 transputer maybe? I hope the bidder isn't really going to reclaim the obvious "pounds" of gold on it. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 13 15:11:07 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:11:07 -0600 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:05:07 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > Anybody recognize the board in this lot: > > [ebay item #] 120314777595 > > transputer maybe? I've never seen any transputer packaging that looks like that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Oct 13 15:15:03 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:15:03 -0500 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some sort of IBM mainframe board? The 78nn numbers are possible date codes, 1978 is a plausible year for chip packaging like that. paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 4:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: "scrap" auction... Anybody recognize the board in this lot: 120314777595 transputer maybe? I hope the bidder isn't really going to reclaim the obvious "pounds" of gold on it. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Mon Oct 13 15:18:24 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:48:24 +1030 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810140648.25170.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:35:07 am Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Anybody recognize the board in this lot: > > 120314777595 > > transputer maybe? I hope the bidder isn't really going > to reclaim the obvious "pounds" of gold on it. The logo on top of each post looks like the Fairchild logo. The numbers suggest a date of 1976, but it looks *very* high tech for something of that vintage. Alexis. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Oct 13 15:22:15 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:22:15 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard wrote: > "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > > > Anybody recognize the board in this lot: > > > > [ebay item #] 120314777595 > > > > transputer maybe? > > I've never seen any transputer packaging that looks like that. That was just a wild-ass guess on my part. Very unusual, heat sinked chips in a 6 x 7 grid, custom wired on the back. I just noticed the Fairchild glyph on the tops of the heat sinks. In the photos where you can read the numbers on the chips, each one has a different set of numbers. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 15:23:32 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:23:32 -0700 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Anybody recognize the board in this lot: >> >> [ebay item #] 120314777595 >> >> transputer maybe? Not a transputer. I think the date codes, if they are that, indicate the chips were made in 1978 (7840, 7846, 7847...) The mounting structure looks like IBM Mainframe to me. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 15:26:02 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:26:02 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F3AEDA.5090303@gmail.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Richard wrote: >> "Bill Sudbrink" writes: >> >>> Anybody recognize the board in this lot: >>> >>> [ebay item #] 120314777595 >>> >>> transputer maybe? >> I've never seen any transputer packaging that looks like that. > > That was just a wild-ass guess on my part. Very unusual, heat > sinked chips in a 6 x 7 grid, custom wired on the back. I just > noticed the Fairchild glyph on the tops of the heat sinks. In > the photos where you can read the numbers on the chips, each one > has a different set of numbers. I does look like an IBM package. If it does contain Fairchild devices on it, it would still be feasible, since IBM used to buy a lot of parts from Fairchild. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 15:28:51 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:28:51 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F3AF83.5030601@gmail.com> Paxton Hoag wrote: >>> Anybody recognize the board in this lot: >>> >>> [ebay item #] 120314777595 >>> >>> transputer maybe? > > > Not a transputer. I think the date codes, if they are that, indicate > the chips were made in 1978 (7840, 7846, 7847...) > > The mounting structure looks like IBM Mainframe to me. S/370/158 maybe? Peace... Sridhar From tonym at compusource.net Mon Oct 13 15:30:02 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:30:02 GMT Subject: "scrap" auction... Message-ID: <200810131630422.SM07604@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Paxton Hoag innfoclassics at gmail.com >Sent 10/13/2008 4:23:32 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: "scrap" auction... > > Anybody recognize the board in this lot: > > [ebay item #] 120314777595 > Question of the day: Why is it listed under "Harley-Davidson" collectibles ? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 13 12:42:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:42:13 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> References: <48F16EFB.705@bitsavers.org>, <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <48F32605.12405.247153B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Oct 2008 at 6:50, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > Does it fail to see any sectors at all? > > > > Correct. I haven't tried a catweasel on it yet to see > > what the details of the sectors are. > > Then most likely there is some other factor in the 8-sector format > which makes it incompatible with the PC disk controller... Given (a) that these are 48 tpi 5.25" DD diskettes and (b) that the 3B1 uses a WD2797 at standard data rates, you should *at least* see returns from a Read ID operation. ISTR that while the 2797 could format using a variety of DAMs, there's only one recognized MFM IDAM and it must be preceded by three A1s to be recognized reliably. If you're not seeing at least the address headers, it doesn't look good. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 13 02:38:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:38:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 13, 8 04:08:31 am Message-ID: > > Hi, All, > > I'm just finishing up assembling a PET "Video Mixer" from an old JPG > of a much older scan of said circuit. This particular one is annotated Do you have a URL for said scheamtic? > as being from the "Commodore Pet Users Club of England - Newsletter > issues 1 & 2, page 9". It's the variant with three NOR gates ('LS02), > with a few resistors, capacitors, and a diode. The part that I'm > curious about is how much variation is allowed in the caps. > > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that IO think we can instantly eliminat 'mf' == millifarad (which is what it should be!), since that's then 2.2F, which is rediculously large 2200uF (microfarads) is also IMHO too large for a non-polarised capacitor, I've not seen non-polarised electrolytics that large, and anyhting else would be essentially hopeless. 2200uF as an aluminium electrolytic would be very possible. 2200nF (==2.2uF) would be possible, but it's a very odd way to write it. 2200pF (==2.2nF) is quite possible, for some reason some people (particularly in the States) don't like the unit 'nF'. That would also seem to be a suitable value for coupling a 15kHz signal. > large lying around. The output of that gate (which NORs the inverted > vertical sync with the massaged horizontal sync) feeds unto a "47mf" > tantalum cap (then pulled down to ground by a diode, and wire-ored to Well, tatalum caps tend to be in the range 0.47uF to 100uF (yes, they exist outside that range, but they're less common). so 47uF would be possible. > inverted video out/composite out via a 470 Ohm resistor). I have 47uF caps, > but that seems pretty large to me. > > I have a basic understanding of RS-170-type video, and I know this circuit > is probably going to produce a signal that "modern" IC-based video inputs > will not like (much the same way the classic RCA CDP1861 video behaves), > but fortunately, I have an old B&W security-type monitor to plug this into > (which has already been tested with a CDP1861). > > I'm just curious why the caps are so large. I think I get what's going Whenever I've wanted to combine syncs and video, I've used a circuit rouhly based on the TRS-80 Model 1 video output and/or the IBM PC CGA composite output. No capacitors involved. An XOR gate to combine syncs, a couple of transistors and a resistor chain. Never had any problems with it. -tony From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 13 15:50:06 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:50:06 -0400 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <101320081700.12020.48F37EC100064E4B00002EF422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch><48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG><101320081435.3124.48F35CA000030E2400000C3422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> <48F3765C.50309@arachelian.com> <101320081700.12020.48F37EC100064E4B00002EF422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <48F3B47E.6050804@arachelian.com> Brian L. Stuart wrote: > define a particular part of the computing world. Following > the car analogy, this is the part of the world that is > designing cars for the mainstream audience, e.g. SUVs. > Yes, but the car analogy isn't going to be perfect. :) > I can't say for sure about everyone else, but I know that > I'd have a hard time staying intellectually engaged in > that part of the world: the "bread and butter programming" > a co-worker once called it. I think I'd go crazy if I > couldn't at least sometimes be a part of the world that > does ask, "what if the wheel were a sphere instead of > a torus?" As it is, the computing world has become so > bland and homogeneous that I have my doubts that I'd > get into this field if I was just starting my career. > Nothing wrong with that. If you want to be in the business of making wheels, by all means. Reinvent away and build your own toolkit, and stick to whatever standards you need to stick to (or invent your own). If you're in the business of requiring wheels for a particular task, by all means use pre-built wheels. > None of that is to say that there's anything wrong with > the mainstream computing world or with programmers who > are good at the bread and butter programming. It's just > not for me, and there's nothing wrong with my computing > world either. > I hardly think building emulators is bread and butter programming. :-) But, building a UI from scratch in Xlib is a completely different task than building an emulator and making use of pre-build toolkits. There is at least an order of magnitude worth of difference between rolling your own from scratch and using a toolkit. So which business are you in? Making emulators? Making tookits from scratch, or both? If you're in both, hey, that's wonderful. But if you're just interested in making emulators, then building an entire toolkit seems a waste of time - sure there are reasons for it (you like the challenge, or you want to reuse it elsewhere, etc.) but if you don't meet those reasons, you're just wasting cycles better spent making the core of the emulator better. And there is a ton of stuff to do when rolling your own. You need preferences, file pickers, dialog boxes, windows, keyboard interfaces, etc. It's a huge undertaking. And in the end your application will be locked into to a single platform (or sets of platforms), will look and behave like nothing else (which annoys your users), and won't benefit from future improvements in the host OS's. example: Almost every desktop these days has certain preference settings that users can set as to color, look and feel, etc. > To butcher Shakespeare a little: There is more in the > computing world than is dreamt of in the PC philosophy. > Agreed. There's also using the right tool for the job too. Nothing wrong with building your own tools, and for that matter, your own screws. But if you go the route of making your own screws, they won't fit anyone else's. What would you gain exactly over say a flat, phillips, or torx? (I say screws because that's a problem Babbage had - no shop built screws quite the same way, so he had to pay a lot and spend a lot of time to get exactly the parts he needed.) > ObClassic: After all, it's playing with, studying, and > learning from the inventive and unusual that attracts > a lot of us to classic computing. So this is a setting > where I'm a little surprised to hear "don't reinvent > the wheel." > It's more than that, the implication is don't reinvent the wheel unless you have a specific justifiable need to do so. And who knows there are those who might. But for 99.99% of things, it's just a waste of time. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 13 15:51:15 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <101320081801.4500.48F38CF4000B85440000119422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> <48F2B1A2.5010509@brouhaha.com> <101320081801.4500.48F38CF4000B85440000119422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <20081013134817.O4426@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 g-wright at att.net wrote: > where from the same add on package, don't remember which and they showed > up as 9 sectors ??? Anadisk finds the same and can read the first 8 sectors and > errors on the 9th. Some systems that use multiple different numbers of sectoras on a track will format 9 (or 10), and then depending on which format is desired, only use 8 (or 9). Also, if you reuse disks that were previously formatted for 9 sectors per track (such as PC-DOS "360K"), some systems will see that the 8 sectors that they need are present, and mat choose to not reformat the disk. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 13 15:52:52 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F32605.12405.247153B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48F16EFB.705@bitsavers.org>, <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> <48F32605.12405.247153B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Oct 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Oct 2008 at 6:50, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > > > Does it fail to see any sectors at all? > > > > > > Correct. I haven't tried a catweasel on it yet to see > > > what the details of the sectors are. > > > > Then most likely there is some other factor in the 8-sector format > > which makes it incompatible with the PC disk controller... > > Given (a) that these are 48 tpi 5.25" DD diskettes and (b) that the > 3B1 uses a WD2797 at standard data rates, you should *at least* see > returns from a Read ID operation. ISTR that while the 2797 could > format using a variety of DAMs, there's only one recognized MFM IDAM > and it must be preceded by three A1s to be recognized reliably. > > If you're not seeing at least the address headers, it doesn't look > good. So, does anyone know if we can count on sometime in the next few months having a complete set of install disk images that can be written to floppy with or without a catweasel? This made me think of a possible alternative. How hard would it be to do a fresh install on a 3b1, then dump the hard drive? Would that eliminate the need to deal with weird formats? Would that be acceptable for the different variations of machines? Note, I have a catweasel specifically for weird formats like this. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Oct 13 15:57:05 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (ethan.dicks at usap.gov) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:57:05 +0000 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20081013205705.GA25954@usap.gov> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 08:38:30AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, All, > > > > I'm just finishing up assembling a PET "Video Mixer" from an old JPG > > of a much older scan of said circuit. This particular one is annotated > > Do you have a URL for said scheamtic? I do not. I have a jpg file that I acquired some time ago from I know not where. > > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > > non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that > > IO think we can instantly eliminat 'mf' == millifarad (which is what it > should be!), since that's then 2.2F, which is rediculously large Of course. I never thought it was millifarad. > 2200uF (microfarads) is also IMHO too large for a non-polarised > capacitor, I've not seen non-polarised electrolytics that large, and > anyhting else would be essentially hopeless. 2200uF as an aluminium > electrolytic would be very possible. Agreed. > 2200nF (==2.2uF) would be possible, but it's a very odd way to write it. Yes. This was also written in the 1970s, so I'm trying historical interpretation as well as what's obviously written. > 2200pF (==2.2nF) is quite possible, for some reason some people > (particularly in the States) don't like the unit 'nF'. That would also > seem to be a suitable value for coupling a 15kHz signal. 2200pF does sound reasonable. I am one of those who never grew up using nF, so I don't tend to use it (I learned milli-microfarad from my father for pF, he, in turn, was a Ham in the 1950s). > Well, tatalum caps tend to be in the range 0.47uF to 100uF (yes, they > exist outside that range, but they're less common). so 47uF would be > possible. Possible, but it seems large. > Whenever I've wanted to combine syncs and video, I've used a circuit > rouhly based on the TRS-80 Model 1 video output and/or the IBM PC CGA > composite output. No capacitors involved. An XOR gate to combine syncs, a > couple of transistors and a resistor chain. Never had any problems with it. This is probably a transistor-less version of a similar circuit. It has NORs rather than XORs (though I've seen that one) and a resistor chain, but no transistor. I don't know why there's a cap and a pull-down diode between the sync-combiner and the sync-and-video combiner gates, but it's there. I was guessing the cap was on the horizontal circuit, along with a pull-down resistor, to act as an RC delay of some sort to allow one to tweak the horizontal sync slightly to match up with whatever external monitor one is using, but I could be wrong about that. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Oct-2008 at 20:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -56.2 F (-49.0 C) Windchill -81.9 F (-63.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.6 kts Grid 58 Barometer 668.2 mb (11077 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 13 16:00:03 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:00:03 -0400 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F39428.3060605@bluewin.ch> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> <48F39428.3060605@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <48F3B6D3.6030909@arachelian.com> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > cq Xlib vs. the various Widget toolboxes > > My GUI needs were very limited : This is the main reason I could get > away not using a toolkit. > check on ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp for some screenshots of the > emulator. > > Codesize for the GUI section is around 100 lines of C, time to > implemement probably less than would be needed to master a widget set. > And yes, I liked the idea of trying to limit myself to Xlib. I'm not familiar with the Lilith, but won't you have the ability to change features? Insert disks or tapes? You might find it's a pain to build a file picker in Xlib. As an example. Dialog boxes for "Ooops, the emulator died." or "are you sure you want to destroy what you were working on", and so forth. > > Anyhow the interesting part should be the Lilith emulation itself, and > writing documentation and preparing diskimages will be enough work. Exactly. > But, yes, if I ever port this to C++ I will go for WxWidgets. Not trying to push wx on you, you might be able to do plain old C in QT or GTK (not sure, I don't know those). If you do go with wx, you don't need the whole thing in C++, just the UI pieces. Anyway, that's very cool to see another emulator. :-) From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 13 16:07:40 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: <48F3AF83.5030601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <246127.57305.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: "scrap" auction... To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 1:28 PM Paxton Hoag wrote: >>> Anybody recognize the board in this lot: >>> >>> [ebay item #] 120314777595 >>> >>> transputer maybe? > > > Not a transputer. I think the date codes, if they are that, indicate > the chips were made in 1978 (7840, 7846, 7847...) > > The mounting structure looks like IBM Mainframe to me. S/370/158 maybe? Peace... Sridhar Amdhal? Looks like they might be Fujitsu chips. Bob From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Oct 13 16:29:57 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:29:57 +0000 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20081013212957.GA25798@usap.gov> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 08:38:30AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, All, > > > > I'm just finishing up assembling a PET "Video Mixer" from an old JPG > > of a much older scan of said circuit. This particular one is annotated > > Do you have a URL for said scheamtic? Found it... Under http://oldcomputers.net/pet2001.html http://oldcomputers.net/pics/pet-video.jpg -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Oct-2008 at 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -56.2 F (-49.0 C) Windchill -84.6 F (-64.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.1 kts Grid 54 Barometer 668.1 mb (11080 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Oct 13 16:32:53 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:32:53 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: <200810131630422.SM07604@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: tonym wrote: > > Anybody recognize the board in this lot: > > > > [ebay item #] 120314777595 > > > > > Question of the day: > > Why is it listed under "Harley-Davidson" collectibles ? That's the main reason I posted it to cctalk. In case it was something important that might have been missed by the folks who knew what to do with it. My "nightmare vision" was that some Harley driver (nothing against them by the way) who knew nothing but what he read in some "get rich quick by reclaiming gold that people just throw away" book would destroy something rare and/or important. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 13 15:41:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:41:13 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <101320081801.4500.48F38CF4000B85440000119422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com>, <48F2B1A2.5010509@brouhaha.com>, <101320081801.4500.48F38CF4000B85440000119422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <48F34FF9.13293.251534D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2008 at 18:01, g-wright at att.net wrote: > When I image disked my set, it found both 8 and 10 sector disks. The 3B1 can > format in either 8 or 10 sectors. It looks like the main software is all in 10 sector > disks and the other add on software is in 8 sectors. The 2 disks that failed to image > where from the same add on package, don't remember which and they showed > up as 9 sectors ??? Anadisk finds the same and can read the first 8 sectors and > errors on the 9th. Depends on what the 9th sector display as. There's a Windoze-related glitch in the Anadisk sector map code to detect "orphan" sectors; i.e., those without an address header. If the sector shows up in the map as "109" or some such, you're seeing the artifact. Try it again with honest-to-gosh real-mode MS-DOS. Believe it or not, the "orphan" sector was someone's idea of copy protection back in the day. Shows up on a "Read Track" operation, but is otherwise inaccessible. Similarly, some vendors used to put about 50 orphan IDAMs on a floppy with no data sectors. Or put 2 sectors with identical IDAMs on a track--read one and then read the other immediately and compare the results. As well as sticking stuff in the inter-sector gap to identify the disk (I think Harvard Graphics did that one). Ah, the good old days.... :( Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 13 17:38:03 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:38:03 -0800 Subject: "scrap" auction... References: <200810140648.25170.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca> > The logo on top of each post looks like the Fairchild logo. Looks more like the Fujitsu logo. Also, the chip part numbers are of the form "MB....", which is a Fujitsu format. Fujitsu was into producing memory chips in that era I believe. They also produced entire 370 plug-compatible mainframes didn't they? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 13 17:01:27 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:01:27 -0700 Subject: "scrap" aution... Message-ID: <48F3C537.3050607@bitsavers.org> > 120314777595 Looks like Amdahl 470 style packaging. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 13 16:55:52 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:55:52 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013205705.GA25954@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <20081013205705.GA25954@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48F3C3E8.4060902@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/10/2008 21:57, ethan.dicks at usap.gov wrote: > 2200pF does sound reasonable. I am one of those who never grew up > using nF, so I don't tend to use it (I learned milli-microfarad from > my father for pF, he, in turn, was a Ham in the 1950s). I hope you didn't, because it would be wrong :-) One milli-microfarad is one nanofarad; I think you meant to write micro-microfarad, or more likely you meant to write nF instead of pF. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 17:06:27 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:06:27 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: <48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200810140648.25170.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: >> The logo on top of each post looks like the Fairchild logo. > > Looks more like the Fujitsu logo. Also, the chip part numbers are of the form > "MB....", which is a Fujitsu format. > > Fujitsu was into producing memory chips in that era I believe. They also > produced entire 370 plug-compatible mainframes didn't they? More like they financed Amdahl. When Gene Amdahl left IBM to start Amdahl Corp, he started up with capital from Fujitsu. Eventually, Fujitsu bought the remaining outstanding shares of Amdahl, which has operated as a subsidiary of Fujitsu since 1997. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Oct 13 17:11:34 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:11:34 +0000 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F3C3E8.4060902@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <20081013205705.GA25954@usap.gov> <48F3C3E8.4060902@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20081013221134.GC29110@usap.gov> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 10:55:52PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 13/10/2008 21:57, ethan.dicks at usap.gov wrote: > >2200pF does sound reasonable. I am one of those who never grew up > >using nF, so I don't tend to use it (I learned milli-microfarad from > >my father for pF, he, in turn, was a Ham in the 1950s). > > I hope you didn't, because it would be wrong :-) One milli-microfarad > is one nanofarad; I think you meant to write micro-microfarad, or more > likely you meant to write nF instead of pF. Ah, yes... micro-microfarad. My bad. I hadn't heard the term since I was about 10 and just mis-remembered it. I have seen old (1970s) construction articles in "Popular Electronics", etc., refer to "mmf" on occasion - presumably micro-microfarad. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Oct-2008 at 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.7 F (-48.7 C) Windchill -84.0 F (-64.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.1 kts Grid 39 Barometer 667.9 mb (11088 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 13 19:54:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:54:40 -0700 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> References: , <48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca>, <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F38B60.14275.25FD3E21@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2008 at 18:06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > When Gene Amdahl left IBM to start Amdahl Corp, he started up with > capital from Fujitsu. Eventually, Fujitsu bought the remaining > outstanding shares of Amdahl, which has operated as a subsidiary of > Fujitsu since 1997. Whatever happened to Gene's "next" venture--what was it, "Waferscale Technology" or some such thing. I recall that he received what was then an almost unheard-of first-round VC financing--something like 27 million. Cheers, Chuck From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 19:59:38 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:59:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone need a very old Xyplex switch? Message-ID: Stumbled across this in my closet, it's a very old (probably about 8 years) Xyplex switch, 8-12 slot, chasis. it's very large, at least half the size a PDP BA-123 chasis it runs usual routing protocols, and *may* include BGP. it hasn't been turned on in many many years I have to move at the end of the month and would like to get rid of it before then. Otherwise it's going to the scrappers. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Oct 13 20:02:22 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:02:22 -0500 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> References: <200810140648.25170.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org><48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca> <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: That fits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl -- it talks about ECL ASICs with cooling fins on the package. paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 6:06 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: "scrap" auction... Brent Hilpert wrote: >> The logo on top of each post looks like the Fairchild logo. > > Looks more like the Fujitsu logo. Also, the chip part numbers are of the form > "MB....", which is a Fujitsu format. > > Fujitsu was into producing memory chips in that era I believe. They also > produced entire 370 plug-compatible mainframes didn't they? More like they financed Amdahl. When Gene Amdahl left IBM to start Amdahl Corp, he started up with capital from Fujitsu. Eventually, Fujitsu bought the remaining outstanding shares of Amdahl, which has operated as a subsidiary of Fujitsu since 1997. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 13 20:44:32 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:44:32 -0600 Subject: Anyone need a very old Xyplex switch? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:59:38 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dan Gahlinger writes: > it runs usual routing protocols, and *may* include BGP. Battlestar Galactica Protocol? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 13 20:46:12 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:46:12 -0600 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:29:27 -0700. <48E63A57.8060509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <48E63A57.8060509 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I too have a 4114 (actually two of them) that don't work. Do you have or > know where schematics can be obtained? > Both of mine power up and beep what I think is an error code, but > nothing on the screen. I got my 4113 delivered the other day (another Craters & Freighters success story). It came with a user's manual that has the power on test sequence documented in an appendix. Still no service manual, but I can scan in the stuff for the power-on-reset test, its just a few pages long. Its not a 4114, but my feeling is that this portion of the system is going to be identical between the two. Do you want that, Bob? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 13 22:34:50 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:34:50 -0700 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F4135A.3000305@sbcglobal.net> Richard wrote: > > I got my 4113 delivered the other day (another Craters & Freighters > success story). It came with a user's manual that has the power on > test sequence documented in an appendix. Still no service manual, but > I can scan in the stuff for the power-on-reset test, its just a few > pages long. Its not a 4114, but my feeling is that this portion of > the system is going to be identical between the two. > > Do you want that, Bob? > Yes, I would like a copy. It might at least give me a hint. Both of my units give different errors. I did try swapping boards between them but no luck. Does your 4113 work OK? Bob From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Oct 13 22:41:48 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:41:48 -0400 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+, FIXED :) Message-ID: <8CAFBC5EC3F3016-114-1FEF@webmail-me19.sysops.aol.com> > Are these the most recent versions of 11/23+ proms?? I have an 11/23+ > that I was going to update.? Are both of these versions compatible > with all M8189 boards and would the M8189-BG version be the better > image to use? Got me on that one.?? All of the boards I've ever owned have had proms -183 and -184.?? I was thinking those boards were -BH, but I could be mistaken; they might have been -BF . . . As long as they would boot DU/MU, and supported auto-boot, I wasn't terribly concerned about anything else. . . T From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 13 23:11:30 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:11:30 -0600 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:34:50 -0700. <48F4135A.3000305@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <48F4135A.3000305 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > > Do you want that, Bob? > > Yes, I would like a copy. It might at least give me a hint. Both of my > units give different errors. I did try swapping > boards between them but no luck. Does your 4113 work OK? I'll just type in the appendix. I have only just received my 4113. Currently its in the warehouse and I haven't unpacked the pedestal yet. I unpacked the manuals and a few peripheral bits tonight. Appendix B Power-Up Sequence and Self-Test =============================== The Power-Up Sequence --------------------- Each time you turn the terminal on, it automatically tests parts of its memory and circuitry. This is called the power-up sequence. It takes from 15 to 60 seconds, depending on what options your terminal has, and requires no operator interaction. During the power-up sequence, the lights in the keyboard go through the following sequence: 1. All lights turn on. 2. The CAPS LOCK light turns off. 3. All other lights turn off. 4. The XMT and RCV lights flash once simultaneously. 5. All lights turn off. If the terminal bell does not ring during the power-up sequence (within 60 seconds of turning the terminal on), press the PAGE key. The screen is erased and the cursor flashes in the upper-left corner of the screen. If the dialog area is enabled, the light in the DIALOG key is on and the cursor appears on the first available line of the dialog area. As soon as the cursor appears on the screen, the terminal is ready for use. If the power-up sequence detects an error, the terminal bell rings one, two, three, or four times, depending ont he severity of the problem. There may also be a message on the screen. Power-Up Error If the power up sequence encounters an error that will not prevent you from using the terminal (a non-fatal error), the bell rings one time and a message is displayed on the screen. If the terminal bell rings and you cannot read the message that is displayed, press the MASTER RESET button (Figure B-1). This causes the screen to erase and the power-up sequence to run again so you can read the message. An example of such an error is when a problem exists that prevents you from using one of the terminal's options. If this happens, the bell rings once and a message is displayed. For example, if the disk option failed the power-up sequence, the following message would appear. ROM Set: 42-Fail If there is a problem with a tablet option, the following message appears: ROM Set: 13-Fail When an option fails, that option cannot be accessed but the rest of the terminal's features can still be used. You can report the failure to a service person, or run the self-test procedures (described later in this appendix) to isolate the failure more specifically. If an error occurs when the terminal is checking its keyboard, the following message can appear: Keyboard I-D -- XX where XX is a keyboard ID value. If this occurs, record the message and contact a service person. The terminal has a setup memory, which remembers many of the terminal's parameters or settings after it is turned off. These attributes are reinstated the next time the terminal is turned on. If that memory fails, the terminal bell rings once and the following message appears on the screen: Setup Defaults Reset This occurs if the terminal's configuration has been altered by putting in or taking out a circuit board. It also occurs if the battery that powers the setup memory fails. It is important to note that if you change one or more boards, only the parameters affected by the change are reset. If the setup memory battery fails, all parameters are reset to default. Fatal Errors The terminal is not operational (fatal error) if its standard system fails. If that happens, the terminal bell rings four times, once when the following message appears on the screen and three times when the fatal error is reported: ROM Set: 00-Fail If the power-up sequence encounters a fatal error before the screen is checked, the terminal bell rings three times and the indicator and keyboard lights blink in a particular sequence. The sequence in which they flash indicates the test that has failed. If this occurs, record the light pattern and report it to a qualified service technician. You may also want to run the self-test procedure, explained later in this section, which provides more detailed information that you can relay to a qualified service technician. When there is a fatal error, the terminal cannot be operated except to run the self-test procedure. Self-Test --------- General Self-Test The power-up sequence is an abbreviated test of the terminal's memory and circuitry. A more extensive test of the terminal's operating conditions is initiated by the SELF TEST button. Self-test thoroughly tests the terminal and allows a service technician to make any necessary adjustments. If the terminal detects an error in the power-up sequence, you can run the self-test procedure to isolate the problem. You can then report the specific problem to a technician. Self-test is initiated by pressing the SELF TEST and MASTER RESET buttons (Figure B-1) in the following sequence: 1. Press SELF TEST. 2. Continue to hold SELF TEST while you press and release MASTER RESET. 3. Continue to hold SELF TEST until the indicator lights begin to ripple. 4. Release SELF TEST. For about the first three minutes of the self-test, the light patterns continue to change as tests are run. If a module fails, the terminal bell rings twice and a light pattern remains on for 20 seconds, indicating which test has failed. Record that pattern to report to a technician. Submessages In addition to this initial light-coded message, many messages have up to three submessages which can provide a technician with even more information about the problem. If you want to view the submessages, start the following sequence within 20 seconds after the initial message appears. (If you take no action within 20 seconds, the self-test continues.) 1. Press the RETURN key. 2. The terminal bell rings twice and another light pattern is displayed. 3. Record the light pattern and press RETURN again. 4. If there is another submessage, the bell rings twice and another light pattern is displayed. 5. Record the light pattern and press RETURN. 6. If there is a third submessage, the bell rings twice and another light pattern is displayed. 7. Record the light pattern and press RETURN. 8. When you have seen all of the submessages, there is no bell when you press RETURN, the light in the CAPS LOCK key turns off, and the indicator light pattern changes to indicate that the next test in the self test procedure is being run. Error messages are displayed in this manner as the terminal checks its display. After the display has been checked, subsequent error messages are displayed on the screen instead of by light patterns. If the test halts during this part of the test, it is because the screen is filled with error messages. Make a hard copy or write down the error messages. Press the PAGE key and the test will continue. The self-test procedure is explained in more detail in the 4113 Service Manual. Resetting Setup Memory ---------------------- You may find it necessary or desirable to restore the terminal's operating environment to the factory defaults. This can be accomplished with the self-test procedure. To do so, take the following steps: 1. Initiate the self-test as explained earlier in this appendix. 2. Within 20 seconds of initiating the self-test, press and hold the CTRL key while you press and release the C key, then release the CTRL key. This causes the light in the CAPS LOCK key to stop flashing and the following menu is displayed on the screen: 411X Menu -- f1 4113 Display f2 Processor Board f3 Disk f4 Tablet f5 3PPI -- Selection * 3. Press Function Key 2 (F2). The following menu appears on the screen: Processor Board Menu -- f1 CMOS-Reset f2 Keyboard f3 Host Port -- Selection * 4. Press Function Key 1 (F1). The following message appears below the menu: Processor Board Menu -- f1 CMOS-Reset f2 Keyboard f3 Host Port -- Selection *f1 CMOS-Reset Selection * The term CMOS RESET means that the Setup memory has been restored to its factory default values. 5. Press and hold the CTRL key while you press and release the E key, then release the CTRL key. The terminal exits from the self-test procedure, runs the power-up sequence, and when the cursor appears, is ready for use. Figure B-1. The MASTER RESET and SELF TEST Buttons On the right side of the pedestal, underneath the keyboard are two buttons. The right button is the MASTER RESET button. The left button is the SELF TEST button. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 00:21:32 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:21:32 -0700 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: References: <200810140648.25170.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca> <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well it closed at $79.90. I checked the feedback of the person who bought it and I believe they are a scrapper so it is on the way to melt. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 14 00:53:11 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:53:11 -0400 Subject: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4 In-Reply-To: References: <200810101534.m9AFYsNh081887@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7D4B5BA8-C2F9-4B1B-BD9E-8028F5AD82CA@neurotica.com> On Oct 11, 2008, at 6:07 AM, Jeff Jonas wrote: >> From: Dave McGuire >> Subject: Re: Seeking SunOS 4.1.4 > > A friend had a beowulf cluster of IPXs but all running BSD. Sick, twisted. I like it. How many machines? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 14 00:49:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:49:25 -0700 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <48F3D075.31414.270B1530@cclist.sydex.com> Sort of on the topic of number-crunching, but on PCs, is anyone currently using CUDA? Just wondering, Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 13 12:04:24 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F3765C.50309@arachelian.com> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch><48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <101320081435.3124.48F35CA000030E2400000C3422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> <48F3765C.50309@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200810131715.NAA18900@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...coding in Xlib...wheel reinvention...] > It's already been done, and now there are standard wheels (GTK, QT, > etc.). Yeah, and I've yet to find one that supports interfaces I can actually stand (as user and programmer). (Of lower but still moderate importance, most of them require half of hell's back acre to build.) I've actually been thinking for a while now that I should go through my X programs and put together some kind of toolkit, even if only for my own use. > Using an existing system allows your application to function well, > and allows you to think about more important things than "Gee, this > thing would look better if I moved it 3 pixels to the left and > changed the color a bit. Oh well, I'll have edit the code some more > because I didn't make a facility to do that." Where do you get this delusion that using Xlib directly means a lack of configurability? Or constant macdinking? > Then, you have the disadvantage (some would say advantage, but I'd > say that's misguided) of having your app look and behave completely > different from everything else the end user runs. You mean, like, if you use one toolkit and most of the stuff the user runs uses a different one? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jefferwin at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 12:44:43 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:44:43 -0700 Subject: PLM80 V4 docs needed Message-ID: <7c7c96a50810131044m60e240c0qc4777ba0aaddddfa@mail.gmail.com> OK, time again to dust off the old brains out there. I found a ("the") ISIS-II emulator that runs under dos, which comes with a PLM80 compiler. It also comes with link, locate, objhex and other goodies. The PLM80 compiler identifies itself as PLM80 V4. I worked on the development of the ISIS-II stuff at Intel in the very early 80's as well as on the National Semiconductor Starplex system (anyone remember that one?) so I am able to tinker around and remember how most of this works, but version 4 of the PLM80 compiler is getting the better of me. I have the PLM80 Programmer's Manual, but it is for earlier versions of the two-pass version of PLM80, version 4 was a single pass version that used the linker and locator, all of which was the precursor to the PLM86 compiler and tools. I believe this version came out shortly before the 8086 was introduced, everyone went on to the segmented world and never looked back, which may explain why there isn't much out there for it. I am not able to locate any information on this version 4 of PLM80 anywhere, and the use and format is definitiely different from prior versions of PLM80. Anyone out there have any information or pointers for me? I have tried all of the excellent repositories of manuals and emailed Herb, his site indicates that he might have what I need. Anyone have an ISIS-II set of manuals sitting around that can check for me? Specifically, I am in need of: 98-00268B plm 80 programming manual, V4 Thanks. Jeff Erwin By the way, I am running the ISIS-II emulator in a DOS box under windows, itself an emulator. Windows is running under Parallels on my Mac Pro which is running OSx. Is it possible to get further from reality here?? From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Oct 13 15:25:19 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:25:19 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48F3AEAF.2080805@axeside.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > P.S. - I found another type of composite circuit using a CD4011 as an > inverter and a CD4066 to mix the signals, but for some reason I don't > have all the components labelled on my drawing - the cap on hsync in > particular. One interesting variation with that one is that the 'LS02 > circuit has a 1.5K pulldown on hsync between the cap and the gate, > while the CD4011/CD4066 circuit has a 10K pot. How much adjustment on > hsync is likely to be needed between the PET and the first gate of the > composite circuit? It's the 4011/4066 circuit that I recall. From (very rusty) memory: The circuit as given in "The Pet Revealed" by Nick Hampshire doesn't work, but I can't off-hand remember why not. Maybe he got two signal names swapped. You use a 4011 to combine the syncs, and maybe a second gate to invert the composite sync. The output of this drives the control input of the 4066, which gates the video line from the PET to the monitor. You may need a pull-dowm for when the 4066 is high impedance. I think the only capacuitor (apart from on the supply lines to the chips) should be on the composite output - the syncs that appear on the PET user port are at logic levels; only the video output is at video levels. I don't think any component values are critical as long as you don't try and draw too much current. The pull-down should be large compared to the on-resistance of the transmission gate, so several K ohms. Before you ask, I do possess copies of TPR and circuit diagrams for the PET. If you want me to find them, it may take some time to dig them out, since I have no idea where they are. HTH Philip. From brians69d24 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 16:09:22 2008 From: brians69d24 at hotmail.com (brian s) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:09:22 -0400 Subject: hero robots Message-ID: Hi I saw an older post about a couple of old hero robots for sale. Did you ever sell them? thanks brian _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 13 16:17:13 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F3B6D3.6030909@arachelian.com> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> <48F39428.3060605@bluewin.ch> <48F3B6D3.6030909@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200810132122.RAA20700@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Dialog boxes for "Ooops, the emulator died." or "are you sure you > want to destroy what you were working on", and so forth. A good example of...well, not policy imposed by a toolkit, but certainly promtped by one. It drives me absolutely up the wall to get dialog boxes for things like those; I would say they belong as messages to, or prompts-and-reads in, the emulator console. (Actually, the second example I would say depends. If the command that's being confirmed was issued in a pointy-clicky way, the confirmation should be pointy-clicky; if the command was typed into the console, the confirmation should be there too.) But it feels almost as if the author thought "oh, the toolkit has dialog boxes, I have to use them", rather than actually thinking about the UI design. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Oct 13 23:58:15 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:58:15 -0700 Subject: More stuff to get rid of Message-ID: <48F426E7.7070306@msu.edu> Well, once again I find myself with too much stuff and not enough places to put it. And my GF is moving in sometime soon so I really need the room :). So here's a few things I'm getting rid of, in case anyone's interested: Stuff is free, but local pick up (Seattle area) only! Works unless otherwise indicated. Anything not claimed 'll end up being recycled, most likely. Monitors: - Amdek Color-I. Color AND Sound! - Mitsubishi DiamondScan (CGA/EGA, composite, TTL) (needs a cap kit) - Magnavox Professional (EGA) - Gateway 15" SVGA (Trinitron) - NeXT 21" Color -- beat up, but worked last time I used it a few years back. - NeXT 17" Color -- same. Computers: - Dell Optiplex GX Pro - dual PPro upgraded to Dual PII (via overdrive CPUs). I have some RAM for it somewhere... works. - IBM PS/2 Model 25. Will not power up. Color screen, 20mb hard disk. Printers: - HP Laserjet 6P. Missing rear side covers (over power/parallel ports) but works fine. Relatively new toner cartridge. Misc Junk: - HP 1200B Oscilloscope. Needs repair. - Various AT and ATX cases, empty but I can throw in a power supply or two assuming I have one that fits. Inquire for details. From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Oct 14 00:14:48 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:14:48 -0700 Subject: Keyboard for Beehive B-100? Message-ID: <48F42AC8.9040001@msu.edu> Hey all -- I suppose this is extremely unlikely, but does anyone have a spare keyboard for a Beehive B-100 terminal? Picked this up awhile back and it needs some repair (cap kit, etc...) but I assume that I'm probably never going to find a matching keyboard for this thing :). I'm not nearly ready to take this one on as a project, but I'm making a list of things that I'm keeping vs. things that need to get into other hands, and while I'd love to hold onto this, if I can't get a keyboard I'm never going to get any use out of it... Anyone have any leads? Thanks, Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Oct 14 00:44:47 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:44:47 -0700 Subject: Keyboard for Beehive Terminal (was B-100)? In-Reply-To: <48F42AC8.9040001@msu.edu> References: <48F42AC8.9040001@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48F431CF.5060806@msu.edu> Just realized that this probably isn't a B-100, but rather a Super Bee terminal. Hard to find a decent rundown of what Beehive models are what, visually. I took a couple pictures (with my cell phone, my "good" camera is out on loan...) at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/beehive Any ideas what model this is? It has P/N 112-9075-0008 on the tag on the underside of the chassis, but that's not getting me anywhere... Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > I suppose this is extremely unlikely, but does anyone have a spare > keyboard for a Beehive B-100 terminal? Picked this up awhile back and > it needs some repair (cap kit, etc...) but I assume that I'm probably > never going to find a matching keyboard for this thing :). I'm not > nearly ready to take this one on as a project, but I'm making a list > of things that I'm keeping vs. things that need to get into other > hands, and while I'd love to hold onto this, if I can't get a keyboard > I'm never going to get any use out of it... > > Anyone have any leads? > > Thanks, > Josh > > > From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 02:21:13 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:21:13 +1100 Subject: PC term on 5.25" disk References: >, <48F3D075.31414.270B1530@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3573C4B18A6141929078558D05BDBE76@lance> Any list members in Australia that can provide me with a terminal program (Telix or ProComm Plus strongly preferred) on a 360k 5.25" floppy ? tnx, Lance From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 14 02:37:09 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:37:09 +0100 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+, FIXED :) In-Reply-To: <8CAFBC5EC3F3016-114-1FEF@webmail-me19.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAFBC5EC3F3016-114-1FEF@webmail-me19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <48F44C25.9020708@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/10/2008 04:41, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > >> Are these the most recent versions of 11/23+ proms?? I have an 11/23+ >> that I was going to update.? Are both of these versions compatible >> with all M8189 boards and would the M8189-BG version be the better >> image to use? > > Got me on that one.?? All of the boards I've ever owned > have had proms -183 and -184.?? I was thinking those > boards were -BH, but I could be mistaken; they might > have been -BF . . . The exact same board (M8189) is used for two different machines, PDP-11/23plus and microPDP-11, the difference being the ROMs (and the chassis) used. It's the ROMs (alone) that that make the difference to the suffix, and therefore whether the board is designated an 11/23plus CPU or a microPDP-11/23 CPU. 23-339E2 and 23-340E2 are 2k x 8 and make an PDP-11/23plus (-BA) 23-158E4 and 23-159E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (early -BE) 23-238E4 and 23-239E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (later -BE) 23-183E4 and 23-184E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (-BF) 23-380E4 and 23-381E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (-BG) 23-453E4 and 23-454E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (-BJ) When DEC brought out the microPDP-11 series they also brought out a range of I/O and storage devices to go with them; the difference between the "plus" and "micro" series bootstraps is partly support for those devices, but they also are more interactive. So there was only one set of ROMs released for the PDP-11/23plus but several sets for the microPDP-11/23. The later the version, the more MSCP boot devices are supported, and you're supposed to upgrade the ROMs in a KDF11 to match those in the RQDX1 or RQDX2 controller *and* vice-versa, and you should definitely use -BF or later for RQDX3. Version -BG (called -BH in some places, it's the same ROM set and same code) introduced TK50 boot support, and -BJ refined that to make it more reliable. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Oct 14 02:46:33 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: ISO image of DEC 40th Anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <48E6710F.3000102@crash.com> Message-ID: <96311.97787.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Steven M Jones wrote: > I don't especially care about the physical artifact, > I'd just like to > see what's on the thing. Anybody know where I can grab > an ISO image? Hi, Steve. The disk has arrived. I didn't follow all of the ensuing discussion on classiccmp. Did anyone post a satisfactory disk image online, or do you still need a copy? Best regards, --Bill From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 02:51:50 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 03:51:50 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <48F3D075.31414.270B1530@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <48F3D075.31414.270B1530@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48F44F96.1020008@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sort of on the topic of number-crunching, but on PCs, is anyone > currently using CUDA? There are a significant number of people out there running Folding at home on CUDA. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 03:00:26 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 04:00:26 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: <48F38B60.14275.25FD3E21@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca>, <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> <48F38B60.14275.25FD3E21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48F4519A.2080408@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> When Gene Amdahl left IBM to start Amdahl Corp, he started up with >> capital from Fujitsu. Eventually, Fujitsu bought the remaining >> outstanding shares of Amdahl, which has operated as a subsidiary of >> Fujitsu since 1997. > > Whatever happened to Gene's "next" venture--what was it, "Waferscale > Technology" or some such thing. I recall that he received what was > then an almost unheard-of first-round VC financing--something like 27 > million. It was called Trilogy. More like $200 million. Unfortunately, it imploded spectacularly. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 14 03:01:24 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:01:24 -0600 Subject: Keyboard for Beehive Terminal (was B-100)? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:44:47 -0700. <48F431CF.5060806@msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <48F431CF.5060806 at msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > Just realized that this probably isn't a B-100, but rather a Super Bee > terminal. That seems right. We used to use Super Bees at Project DELTA at the University of Delaware in the late 70s/early 80s. They were prone to failure, particularly capacitors IIRC. I have been actively searching for Beehive terminals and so far have only come up with terminals that are in moderate state of needing repair. One was OEM rebranded Cromemco and sold for more than typical on ebay due to the Cromemco-ness. That one has some sort of problem with input from the keyboard. I picked up a couple more Beehive terminals from Neil on this list. These have a keyboard that is similar to the one used with a Super Bee; you can see a picture of this similar keyboard here: The exact key layout and labelling was different for the Super Bee compared to what you see in that picture. At one point we had an ASCII animation notes program running where people would edit and type in their ASCII animations for playback on the terminal. I think that might have been a first compared to what other people were doing with public notes forums. As a time sharing shop, we were heavily influenced by the udel PLATO installation that ran concurrently with us. They had fancy graphics terminals, but we had Super Bees :-). I remember these terminals failing in an interesting way when they started to overheat. Bits in the display memory would start flipping causing characters at random positions on the screen to spontaneously change. We learned a quick key sequence that would clear the screen and then request a repaint from the host in order to restore the screen to sanity in the summer. (Our office didn't have air conditioning, so we had to live with the summer heat and humidity.) If you want to unload this "project", I'm happy to take it off your hands :-). Also, this serivce manual for the HP 2615 terminal, a rebadged Beehive, looks like it might have similarities to that terminal: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 14 03:47:16 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:47:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013221134.GC29110@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <20081013205705.GA25954@usap.gov> <48F3C3E8.4060902@dunnington.plus.com> <20081013221134.GC29110@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Oct 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 10:55:52PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 13/10/2008 21:57, ethan.dicks at usap.gov wrote: >>> 2200pF does sound reasonable. I am one of those who never grew up >>> using nF, so I don't tend to use it (I learned milli-microfarad from >>> my father for pF, he, in turn, was a Ham in the 1950s). >> >> I hope you didn't, because it would be wrong :-) One milli-microfarad >> is one nanofarad; I think you meant to write micro-microfarad, or more >> likely you meant to write nF instead of pF. > > Ah, yes... micro-microfarad. My bad. I hadn't heard the term since I > was about 10 and just mis-remembered it. I have seen old (1970s) > construction articles in "Popular Electronics", etc., refer to "mmf" > on occasion - presumably micro-microfarad. An analogy for you Americans comes to mind, as Obelix's "Ils sont fous, ces romains!" ;-)) Christian From dmabry at mich.com Tue Oct 14 05:54:35 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:54:35 -0400 Subject: PLM80 V4 docs needed In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50810131044m60e240c0qc4777ba0aaddddfa@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50810131044m60e240c0qc4777ba0aaddddfa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F47A6B.9060101@mich.com> Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/13/2008 1:44 PM: > OK, time again to dust off the old brains out there. I found a ("the") > ISIS-II emulator that runs under dos, which comes with a PLM80 compiler. It > also comes with link, locate, objhex and other goodies. The PLM80 compiler > identifies itself as PLM80 V4. I worked on the development of the ISIS-II > stuff at Intel in the very early 80's as well as on the National > Semiconductor Starplex system (anyone remember that one?) so I am able to > tinker around and remember how most of this works, but version 4 of the > PLM80 compiler is getting the better of me. > Yes, I remember the Starplex. But about all I remember was that it was NS's development system and competed with Intel's MDS. > I have the PLM80 Programmer's Manual, but it is for earlier versions of the > two-pass version of PLM80, version 4 was a single pass version that used the > linker and locator, all of which was the precursor to the PLM86 compiler and > tools. I believe this version came out shortly before the 8086 was > introduced, everyone went on to the segmented world and never looked back, > which may explain why there isn't much out there for it. I am not able to > locate any information on this version 4 of PLM80 anywhere, and the use and > format is definitiely different from prior versions of PLM80. > I've used PL/M-80 extensively in the past, but I don't remember V4 being that much different than earlier versions. All versions of PL/M-80 that ran under ISIS-II used the linker and locater. The only version that I know of that didn't was the Fortran version that ran on mainframes. It produced absolute object code, usually in the form of an Intel hex format. > Anyone out there have any information or pointers for me? I have tried all > of the excellent repositories of manuals and emailed Herb, his site > indicates that he might have what I need. Anyone have an ISIS-II set of > manuals sitting around that can check for me? > I'm sure I have a version of the manual that applies to V4 of the compiler. It *may* be in pdf form, but certainly on paper. Are there some specific questions that you have? I'll check when I get home tonight. At work now. > Specifically, I am in need of: > > 98-00268B plm 80 programming manual, V4 > > Thanks. > > Jeff Erwin > > By the way, I am running the ISIS-II emulator in a DOS box under windows, > itself an emulator. Windows is running under Parallels on my Mac Pro which > is running OSx. Is it possible to get further from reality here?? > I've done many "jobs" using that DOS emulator. It works great! And these days it is much faster than my real MDS systems. But it isn't nearly as elegant as the big blue box powering up, dimming the lights in my house, and the whir of cooling fans and glow of a real crt. Oh, those were the days. Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 07:37:03 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:37:03 -0500 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: References: <200810140648.25170.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca> <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F4926F.7070707@gmail.com> Paxton Hoag wrote: > Well it closed at $79.90. I checked the feedback of the person who > bought it and I believe they are a scrapper so it is on the way to > melt. Sad. I remember talking to an ex-Amdahl chap a year or two ago who said that some of their earlier systems were works of art inside - I believe he might still have some boards which are currently being held for sentimental reasons (but which shouldn't therefore end up in the hands of gold scrappers). I'm not sure if anyone anywhere has a complete system, though... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 07:38:25 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:38:25 -0500 Subject: More stuff to get rid of In-Reply-To: <48F426E7.7070306@msu.edu> References: <48F426E7.7070306@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48F492C1.2080106@gmail.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > And my GF is moving in sometime soon so I really need the > room :) priorities, man - priorities! ;) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 07:48:42 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:48:42 -0500 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <200810131715.NAA18900@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch><48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <101320081435.3124.48F35CA000030E2400000C3422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> <48F3765C.50309@arachelian.com> <200810131715.NAA18900@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48F4952A.8080607@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >>> [...coding in Xlib...wheel reinvention...] >> It's already been done, and now there are standard wheels (GTK, QT, >> etc.). > > Yeah, and I've yet to find one that supports interfaces I can actually > stand (as user and programmer). Bah, write your own wrapper that you can stand - what's a little extra bloat these days? Just throw more hardware it it if it's too slow... ;) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 07:54:37 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:54:37 -0500 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48EF53FC.1000201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F4968D.1020409@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 10, 2008, at 9:09 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> As far as "familiar apps", though...it's not exactly the type of >>> equipment you'd want to run Firefox on. >> >> On one hand I suspect the numbers don't make sense in terms of >> "familiar app speed" vs. power required to run the machine. On the >> other hand, vintage computer collectors don't generally run their >> hardware for efficiency reasons anyway :-) > > Perhaps, but this is hardly a "vintage computer". Point taken - it applies equally to modern 'unusual' machines that aren't just a network of PCs :-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 08:03:57 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:03:57 -0500 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <028401c92cab$b56e3c20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20081010133810.GA28375@usap.gov> <028401c92cab$b56e3c20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <48F498BD.1010308@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> If I had a Cray at my disposal, I'd probably give LCDproc >> a try, but that's strictly out of >> of the same perverse sense that makes someone want to run >> a webserver on a platform that isn't exactly built for "mudane" >> sorts of apps. I really don't know what I'd do to "open up the >> throttle" on a Cray. > > This is something that got me wondering: How much processing power a > cray (any model/age, just for comparison) has against a current Pentium > quad or Turion or whatever? It'll depend entirely on what you're trying to use it for, will it not? One of the things the museum wanted to do was some form of performance index to convey how fast various machines were - an idea that I think is flawed as it can't take into account *how* the various machines were used, and so gives a false impression. The only way to compare is to ask "how productive does this machine make me when doing the tasks I expect of it" - and in those terms, old Crays likely still stand up pretty well (which in a corporate world leaves you moving on to questions about reliability, concurrency, failsafe ability, longevity etc.) > I got a quad core but I'm still unninpressed by it :oP I suspect PCs still are, and always will be, totally hampered by all the cruft that has to exist around the CPU. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 08:07:17 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:07:17 -0500 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <48F2074E.11976.20115815@cclist.sydex.com> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <028401c92cab$b56e3c20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <48F2074E.11976.20115815@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48F49985.6010508@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm more impressed by the graphics chips, such as the Nvidia GT200 > that features SIMT (single instruction multiple task) facilities. I wonder how long it'll be before modern OSes run entirely within the framebuffer, and use the system CPU purely for IO... :-) From roosmcd at dds.nl Tue Oct 14 09:14:53 2008 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (Michiel) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:14:53 +0200 Subject: "scrap" auction... (Bob Rosenbloom) In-Reply-To: <200810140653.m9E6qx51030152@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810140653.m9E6qx51030152@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48F4A95D.4080502@dds.nl> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > S/370/158 maybe? > > Peace... Sridhar > > Amdhal? Looks like they might be Fujitsu chips. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------ > This looks like a match for the board on eBay: http://www.deadprogrammer.com/amdahl-business-in-the-front-party-in-the-back So what do I win? :) Also take note of the following statment: "and pound for pound there was more dead Amdahl hardware repackaged as kitsch on the desks in sales than we had actually moved in Amdahl equipment. ? with regards, Michiel From ray at arachelian.com Tue Oct 14 09:22:02 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:22:02 -0400 Subject: UI Design (was Re: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator.) In-Reply-To: <200810132122.RAA20700@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> <48F39428.3060605@bluewin.ch> <48F3B6D3.6030909@arachelian.com> <200810132122.RAA20700@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48F4AB0A.2020403@arachelian.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Dialog boxes for "Ooops, the emulator died." or "are you sure you >> want to destroy what you were working on", and so forth. >> > > A good example of...well, not policy imposed by a toolkit, but > certainly promtped by one. It drives me absolutely up the wall to get > dialog boxes for things like those; I would say they belong as messages > to, or prompts-and-reads in, the emulator console. > Well, UI design, is a long and huge topic. The toolkit doesn't generally enforce policy on UI design, typically, the vendor provides a best practices spec. For example, back in the day, Apple had a very nice little Hypercard tutorial called "Making it Macintosh" that showed what they thought was the proper way to do things. These things can be quite useful. For example they describe under which conditions to use a list, radio boxes, etc. In terms of what you want in an emulator, it all depends on how you virtualize access to the hardware. You need some way to tell the emulator what file to use as a virtual hard drive, where to direct serial ports, how to deal with networking, etc. Each of these can fail in their own way, and differently from the way the original hardware would, so you need some way to interact with the end user. And that's where the problem lies. Not all users are a like. Some want as little UI as possible, others want more. Some want a text log, others want to be notified. So it's hard to balance things out. Ideally, and this is a personal view, I'd like to be able to show the user what the hardware looked like and let them drag and drop cables or click on buttons. Granted, it's not the same as on the real hardware, but it's a step closer than just providing display output and not much else. I've avoided adding too many normal UI items in LisaEm, and stuck with using the menus as much as possible as they're less intrusive. But there are times when you need to be able to tell the user, "Hey this disk here has a serial number, deserialize it?" - and I've found that in the long run that kind of pop up dialog box when you've just seen a file picker is annoying. So yeah, in the current version (not yet released), that's been replaced with a menu command that deserializes disks. I don't know if that's a better approach, but personally it's less annoying. For other things, if the user runs without a ROM, I let them pick what device to boot off. Sure, I could have written my own ROM or taken screen shots of what it looks like with the ROM, but wanted to make it clear when they're running with or without a ROM, so instead, I presented a normal list picker, so it's clear they're interacting with the emulator and not the Lisa ROM or the OS. Was this a good decision, I don't know, but I'm comfortable with it and so far no one's complained. Now when you run without a ROM and your OS can't boot (maybe because you've tried to boot off a non-bootable device, etc.) I put up a dialog box saying that it failed and put up the error code the OS returned. Additionally, I keep a list of text descriptions for the failures and say those as well. You don't get that when you run with the ROM, but IMHO, it's helpful to know why something failed (so that as a programmer, I can be alerted to why it failed, not so much for the end user, although they benefit too.) So, in this case, a pop up dialog box is useful. Others have opted for a status display, maybe in the form of a bar, or button bar or a status line or whatever. I have some of this too, but I want to keep from being intrusive and I don't want this to be the UI that controls the operation of the emulator. Rather, I want the user to click on the floppy drive when inserting a disk - for example. Sure, there are a lot of analogs you can't provide for that way, and there are a lot of places inside LisaEm where I'd like to provide more real-life like configs. But I am very much interested in the process of making those decisions. Why use wxWidgets vs Qt vs GTK vs pure Xlib. Why implement is menu items vs a button bar, vs simulating what it looks like in real life. How to interact with the user, how to configure things, etc. Some of those decisions are personal, others are experiments, but most are "what do other apps which don't annoy their users do?" (and not necessarily other emulators.) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 14 10:13:56 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:13:56 +0100 Subject: UI Design (was Re: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator.) In-Reply-To: <48F4AB0A.2020403@arachelian.com> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> <48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <48F37343.8020303@arachelian.com> <48F39428.3060605@bluewin.ch> <48F3B6D3.6030909@arachelian.com> <200810132122.RAA20700@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <48F4AB0A.2020403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <48F4B734.8010605@gjcp.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Ideally, and this is a personal view, I'd like to be able to show the > user what the hardware looked like and let them drag and drop cables or > click on buttons. Granted, it's not the same as on the real hardware, > but it's a step closer than just providing display output and not much else. We are stepping terribly far from the path of on-topic here, but much as I like simple interfaces without pointless shiney, I've always liked a feature in the music software Reason. You assemble up virtual instruments in a rack, and when the time comes to plug it all together you hit tab - and the rack flips round to reveal the "sockets", with the cables danging, and swinging slightly from the movement ;-) Very cute, not much extra CPU to process (not compared to the unholy amount of DSP going on in some of the synth engines) and a nice little "user comfort" feature - makes it look like it's doing stuff instead of just sitting there. Gordon From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 10:14:29 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:14:29 -0700 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+, FIXED :) In-Reply-To: <48F44C25.9020708@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8CAFBC5EC3F3016-114-1FEF@webmail-me19.sysops.aol.com> <48F44C25.9020708@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90810140814t281eb98cy44e23957306c3d8c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > The exact same board (M8189) is used for two different machines, > PDP-11/23plus and microPDP-11, the difference being the ROMs (and the > chassis) used. It's the ROMs (alone) that that make the difference to the > suffix, and therefore whether the board is designated an 11/23plus CPU or a > microPDP-11/23 CPU. > > 23-339E2 and 23-340E2 are 2k x 8 and make an PDP-11/23plus (-BA) > 23-158E4 and 23-159E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (early -BE) > 23-238E4 and 23-239E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (later -BE) > 23-183E4 and 23-184E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (-BF) > 23-380E4 and 23-381E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (-BG) > 23-453E4 and 23-454E4 are 8k x 8 and make a microPDP11/23 (-BJ) > Thanks for the details here. I have a pair of 2716's in my M8189 so that must be the earliest version. I have some MCM68766's I can program and drop in place and I'll go ahead and do that now that I know it should work. You have the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 images on your site. Do you also have the 23-453E4 / 23-454E4 images? -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 14 11:20:43 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:20:43 -0400 Subject: CRTs, was Re: PLM80 V4 docs needed In-Reply-To: <48F47A6B.9060101@mich.com> References: <7c7c96a50810131044m60e240c0qc4777ba0aaddddfa@mail.gmail.com> <48F47A6B.9060101@mich.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Dave Mabry wrote: > I've done many "jobs" using that DOS emulator. It works great! > And these days it is much faster than my real MDS systems. But it > isn't nearly as elegant as the big blue box powering up, dimming > the lights in my house, and the whir of cooling fans and glow of a > real crt. Oh, those were the days. "glow of a real crt"...This is the first time I've seen a statement like that. It seems we are seeing the twilight of the CRT era; I wonder how long it'll be before they become "vintage" and "collectors'" technology. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 14 11:42:36 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:42:36 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: <48F38B60.14275.25FD3E21@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <48F3CDCA.F075797F@cs.ubc.ca>, <48F3C663.6030002@gmail.com> <48F38B60.14275.25FD3E21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2367AA1D-CA2F-4A18-8923-6E987C3197B4@neurotica.com> On Oct 13, 2008, at 8:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> When Gene Amdahl left IBM to start Amdahl Corp, he started up with >> capital from Fujitsu. Eventually, Fujitsu bought the remaining >> outstanding shares of Amdahl, which has operated as a subsidiary of >> Fujitsu since 1997. > > Whatever happened to Gene's "next" venture--what was it, "Waferscale > Technology" or some such thing. I recall that he received what was > then an almost unheard-of first-round VC financing--something like 27 > million. Waferscale was his company? I didn't know that. I have quite a few of their chips. I think (but am not certain) that they got swallowed up by STMicro. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Oct 14 11:47:16 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:47:16 -0400 Subject: Anyone need a very old Xyplex switch? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:59:38 -0400. Message-ID: uh no, that's an internet protocol, BGP = Border Gateway Protocol. Dan. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:44:32 -0600 > Subject: Re: Anyone need a very old Xyplex switch? > > > In article , > Dan Gahlinger writes: > > > it runs usual routing protocols, and *may* include BGP. > > Battlestar Galactica Protocol? :-) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! _________________________________________________________________ From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 14 11:50:30 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:50:30 -0400 Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? Message-ID: <17089.1224003030@mini> This is something I've never seen before; I'm trying to revive an old dead Compaq for a friend of a friend. I went to plug in a stock VGA cable (15 pin) and it would not go. The connector on the Dell motherboard (this is a very very old 386) has one pin blocked. Someone here must know what that means; what do I do? grab the needle nose and hack my cable? -brad From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 12:00:49 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <17089.1224003030@mini> Message-ID: <97672.57699.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/14/08, Brad Parker wrote: > This is something I've never seen before; I'm > trying to revive an old > dead Compaq for a friend of a friend. > > I went to plug in a stock VGA cable (15 pin) and it would > not go. The > connector on the Dell motherboard (this is a very very old > 386) has one > pin blocked. > > Someone here must know what that means; what do I do? grab > the needle > nose and hack my cable? That was pretty common at one point in time. Old monitors didn't have this pin (and a few others...). A lot of PC/clone video cards from the 286/386/486 era are like this. It normally only caused problems when you went to use the computer with a KVM setup - the male-male VGA cables always seem to have all the pins filled. The solution is to either use a monitor that doesn't have this pin filled, modify a cable, or do what I always did - drill a tiny hole in the port connector with a hand drill. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 14 12:14:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:14:34 -0700 Subject: "scrap" auction... In-Reply-To: <2367AA1D-CA2F-4A18-8923-6E987C3197B4@neurotica.com> References: , <48F38B60.14275.25FD3E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <2367AA1D-CA2F-4A18-8923-6E987C3197B4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48F4710A.4681.297E5A0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2008 at 12:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > Waferscale was his company? I didn't know that. I have quite a > few of their chips. I think (but am not certain) that they got > swallowed up by STMicro. No, it was Trilogy that I was thinking of. Trilogy was among the first to try to build a system-on-a-wafer, burning through a huge amount of capital, eventually abandoning the effort and changing focus to build VAX-compatible systems by taking the remaining VC and merging with Elxsi. A lesser-known personality would have been forced to shut down by the venture partners before being allowed to change direction so drastically. Amdahl is the perfect argument for the notion of success in a startup having a very large component of luck involved--and an argument against the notion of a "Midas touch" in innovators. Does anyone have one of the Elxsi systems in their collection? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 14 12:20:02 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:20:02 -0700 Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <17089.1224003030@mini> References: <17089.1224003030@mini> Message-ID: <48F47252.29686.29835C03@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2008 at 12:50, Brad Parker wrote: > I went to plug in a stock VGA cable (15 pin) and it would not go. The > connector on the Dell motherboard (this is a very very old 386) has one > pin blocked. It can't be "very very old" if it has a VGA controller on the mobo! Heck my Micronics 386 doesn't even have memory on the motherboard-- and it's a full-sized AT unit. Cheers, Chuck From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Oct 14 12:25:41 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:25:41 -0400 Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <17089.1224003030@mini> References: <17089.1224003030@mini> Message-ID: <48F4D615.9050005@radiorobots.com> Brad Parker wrote: > This is something I've never seen before; I'm trying to revive an old > dead Compaq for a friend of a friend. > > I went to plug in a stock VGA cable (15 pin) and it would not go. The > connector on the Dell motherboard (this is a very very old 386) has one > pin blocked. > > Someone here must know what that means; what do I do? grab the needle > nose and hack my cable? > > -brad > Many of the VGA cables I have omit one pin, I think. If you need I prob have extra. Steve From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 14 11:57:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:57:23 -0700 Subject: Keyboard for Beehive Terminal (was B-100)? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <48F46D03.16024.296E9D04@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2008 at 2:01, Richard wrote: > > Just realized that this probably isn't a B-100, but rather a Super Bee > > terminal. > The exact key layout and labelling was different for the Super Bee > compared to what you see in that picture. At one point we had an > ASCII animation notes program running where people would edit and type > in their ASCII animations for playback on the terminal. I think that > might have been a first compared to what other people were doing with > public notes forums. As a time sharing shop, we were heavily > influenced by the udel PLATO installation that ran concurrently with > us. They had fancy graphics terminals, but we had Super Bees :-). I > remember these terminals failing in an interesting way when they > started to overheat. Bits in the display memory would start flipping > causing characters at random positions on the screen to spontaneously > change. We learned a quick key sequence that would clear the screen > and then request a repaint from the host in order to restore the > screen to sanity in the summer. (Our office didn't have air > conditioning, so we had to live with the summer heat and humidity.) > > If you want to unload this "project", I'm happy to take it off your > hands :-). It's been awhile since I owned a couple of SuperBees, but they used welded-aluminum slab-sided cases and not the fiberglass one shown in the photo. The whole front CRT area was covered with a sheet of brown-tinted acrylic, held on with velcro-ish plastic fasteners. The keyboard itself was parallel output ASCII and had two shades of beige for most keys with yellow special-function keys. Several keys had little round "windows" illuminated by bi-pin lamps. The keyboard case could have been aluminum, but might also have been die-cast zinc- -I don't recall, except that it didn't have the sharp corners the main unit did. The SuperBees were page-editing terminals; you could shoot a page of text to it, edit it offline and then hit TRANSMIT to send the text back to the host. It was also possible to get the terminal into a state where you needed to cycle the power to get it out of some unresponsive condition. When transmitting a page, 1F (hex) was used as an EOL character. CPU in these was an 8008 with shift-register storage. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 14 12:33:02 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:33:02 +0100 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+, FIXED :) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90810140814t281eb98cy44e23957306c3d8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CAFBC5EC3F3016-114-1FEF@webmail-me19.sysops.aol.com> <48F44C25.9020708@dunnington.plus.com> <1e1fc3e90810140814t281eb98cy44e23957306c3d8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F4D7CE.7070906@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/10/2008 16:14, Glen Slick wrote: > Thanks for the details here. I have a pair of 2716's in my M8189 so > that must be the earliest version. I have some MCM68766's I can > program and drop in place and I'll go ahead and do that now that I > know it should work. > > You have the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 images on your site. Do you also > have the 23-453E4 / 23-454E4 images? Sorry, all the ones I have are on the site. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Oct 14 13:18:24 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:18:24 -0700 Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <97672.57699.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <17089.1224003030@mini> <97672.57699.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I usually sacrifice a connector saver to resolve this issue. Eric On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Tue, 10/14/08, Brad Parker wrote: > >> This is something I've never seen before; I'm >> trying to revive an old >> dead Compaq for a friend of a friend. >> >> I went to plug in a stock VGA cable (15 pin) and it would >> not go. The >> connector on the Dell motherboard (this is a very very old >> 386) has one >> pin blocked. >> >> Someone here must know what that means; what do I do? grab >> the needle >> nose and hack my cable? > > That was pretty common at one point in time. Old monitors didn't have this pin (and a few others...). A lot of PC/clone video cards from the 286/386/486 era are like this. It normally only caused problems when you went to use the computer with a KVM setup - the male-male VGA cables always seem to have all the pins filled. The solution is to either use a monitor that doesn't have this pin filled, modify a cable, or do what I always did - drill a tiny hole in the port connector with a hand drill. > > -Ian > From g-wright at att.net Tue Oct 14 13:22:05 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:22:05 +0000 Subject: Imaging, AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F34FF9.13293.251534D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com>, <48F2B1A2.5010509@brouhaha.com>, <101320081801.4500.48F38CF4000B85440000119422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <48F34FF9.13293.251534D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <101420081822.4117.48F4E34C000D418A0000101522216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Chuck Guzis" : -------------- > On 13 Oct 2008 at 18:01, g-wright at att.net wrote: snip >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> errors on the 9th. > > Depends on what the 9th sector display as. There's a Windoze-related > glitch in the Anadisk sector map code to detect "orphan" sectors; > i.e., those without an address header. If the sector shows up in the > map as "109" or some such, you're seeing the artifact. Try it again > with honest-to-gosh real-mode MS-DOS. > > Believe it or not, the "orphan" sector was someone's idea of copy > protection back in the day. Shows up on a "Read Track" operation, > but is otherwise inaccessible. Similarly, some vendors used to put > about 50 orphan IDAMs on a floppy with no data sectors. Or put 2 > sectors with identical IDAMs on a track--read one and then read the > other immediately and compare the results. As well as sticking stuff > in the inter-sector gap to identify the disk (I think Harvard > Graphics did that one). > > Ah, the good old days.... :( > > Cheers, > Chuck > Well Chuck you had me thinking for a while but copy protection on the print drives disks did not seem right. I was using real DOS with image disk and Anadisk. So I decided to try to use the Images had made. So I found a different HD drive, booted the OS from floppy and it all loaded just fine. The 2 add-on disks that would not image, I made copies on the UNIX PC and they loaded just fine. I then tried these copies with Image disk and that worked. So I would guess it may be a case of age and/or how they where made. All of the foundation disks are 10 sectors and the add-on and boot disks are 8 sectors. All of the Images where read and written using a 360k floppy drive and DSDD media. - Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Oct 14 13:25:32 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:25:32 -0600 Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <200810141700.m9EH08Qf037518@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810141700.m9EH08Qf037518@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48F4E41C.4090104@rogerwilco.org> Brad Parker said: > This is something I've never seen before; I'm trying to revive an old > dead Compaq for a friend of a friend. > > I went to plug in a stock VGA cable (15 pin) and it would not go. The > connector on the Dell motherboard (this is a very very old 386) has one > pin blocked. > > Someone here must know what that means; what do I do? grab the needle > nose and hack my cable? The VGA connector specification shows that Pin 9 is not connected and sometimes used as a key, that is, blocked, see: http://pinouts.ru/Video/VGA15_pinout.shtml I doubt it would hurt any future use of the cable to pull/break the pin on your monitor cable, but if you want to keep that side of things stock, you could use a 1/32" bit and drill out the position on the motherboard's connector, to allow the pin to pass through the plastic. - Jared From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 13:27:21 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:27:21 -0400 Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <48F49985.6010508@gmail.com> References: <323489.26723.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <028401c92cab$b56e3c20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <48F2074E.11976.20115815@cclist.sydex.com> <48F49985.6010508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F4E489.30001@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm more impressed by the graphics chips, such as the Nvidia GT200 >> that features SIMT (single instruction multiple task) facilities. > > I wonder how long it'll be before modern OSes run entirely within the > framebuffer, and use the system CPU purely for IO... :-) Personally, I think we're headed for mainframe-style coprocessed channel I/O. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 14 13:44:54 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "scrap" auction... (Bob Rosenbloom) In-Reply-To: <48F4A95D.4080502@dds.nl> References: <200810140653.m9E6qx51030152@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48F4A95D.4080502@dds.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, Michiel wrote: > This looks like a match for the board on eBay: > > http://www.deadprogrammer.com/amdahl-business-in-the-front-party-in-the-back > > So what do I win? :) Also take note of the following statment: > > "and pound for pound there was more dead Amdahl hardware repackaged as > kitsch on the desks in sales than we had actually moved in Amdahl > equipment. ? I'm feeling a need for something like that to hang on my wall. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 13:45:47 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:45:47 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... (Bob Rosenbloom) In-Reply-To: References: <200810140653.m9E6qx51030152@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48F4A95D.4080502@dds.nl> Message-ID: <48F4E8DB.30308@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, Michiel wrote: > >> This looks like a match for the board on eBay: >> >> http://www.deadprogrammer.com/amdahl-business-in-the-front-party-in-the-back >> >> So what do I win? :) Also take note of the following statment: >> >> "and pound for pound there was more dead Amdahl hardware repackaged as >> kitsch on the desks in sales than we had actually moved in Amdahl >> equipment. ? > > I'm feeling a need for something like that to hang on my wall. I feel a need for something like that to be running in my house. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 14 13:48:56 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "scrap" auction... (Bob Rosenbloom) In-Reply-To: <48F4E8DB.30308@gmail.com> References: <200810140653.m9E6qx51030152@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48F4A95D.4080502@dds.nl> <48F4E8DB.30308@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, Michiel wrote: > > > >> This looks like a match for the board on eBay: > >> > >> http://www.deadprogrammer.com/amdahl-business-in-the-front-party-in-the-back > >> > >> So what do I win? :) Also take note of the following statment: > >> > >> "and pound for pound there was more dead Amdahl hardware repackaged as > >> kitsch on the desks in sales than we had actually moved in Amdahl > >> equipment. > > > > I'm feeling a need for something like that to hang on my wall. > > I feel a need for something like that to be running in my house. How cold is it where you are? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 14 13:07:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:07:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013205705.GA25954@usap.gov> from "ethan.dicks@usap.gov" at Oct 13, 8 08:57:05 pm Message-ID: > > > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > > > non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that > > > > IO think we can instantly eliminat 'mf' == millifarad (which is what it > > should be!), since that's then 2.2F, which is rediculously large > > Of course. I never thought it was millifarad. Well, it's what it _should_ be. Mind you, millifarad is not a commonly-used unit for some unknown reason (I routinely see capacitors marked 100000uF rather than 100mF or even 0.1F), although i have seen it used in, I think, an HP manual Incidentally, I saw a 2.7kF (no, not a typo!) low-voltage electrolytic in a catalogue recently. And to think that when I was at school the physics 'teacher' told us that a 1F capacitor would be 'larger than this room' and that we'd never seen on. About a week later I dropped a square plasic object on his deck -- a 1F capacitor that I'd bought from Farnell or somewhere. > > 2200nF (==2.2uF) would be possible, but it's a very odd way to write it. > > Yes. This was also written in the 1970s, so I'm trying historical > interpretation as well as what's obviously written. nF was common in Europe in the 70's, much less common in the States, I think. > > > 2200pF (==2.2nF) is quite possible, for some reason some people > > (particularly in the States) don't like the unit 'nF'. That would also > > seem to be a suitable value for coupling a 15kHz signal. > > 2200pF does sound reasonable. I am one of those who never grew up > using nF, so I don't tend to use it (I learned milli-microfarad from > my father for pF, he, in turn, was a Ham in the 1950s). Err, millimicrofarad = nanofarad. The picofarad is the micromicrofarad. I've seen uuF (where the 'u' is actually $\mu$) in old manuals. Am I the only person to remember the millimicron as an equivalent for nm when talking about optical wavelengths, etc? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 14 14:06:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:06:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEC SX-4B on Ebay In-Reply-To: <48F49985.6010508@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 14, 8 08:07:17 am Message-ID: > I wonder how long it'll be before modern OSes run entirely within the > framebuffer, and use the system CPU purely for IO... :-) I think I've mentioned before that I have an old Xterminal that uses and 80188 for I/O (keyboard, mouse, serial port, ethernet, etc) but runs the Xserver on the (TMS34010) video chip. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 15:05:32 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:05:32 -0400 Subject: "scrap" auction... (Bob Rosenbloom) In-Reply-To: References: <200810140653.m9E6qx51030152@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48F4A95D.4080502@dds.nl> <48F4E8DB.30308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F4FB8C.8010807@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> David Griffith wrote: >>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, Michiel wrote: >>> >>>> This looks like a match for the board on eBay: >>>> >>>> http://www.deadprogrammer.com/amdahl-business-in-the-front-party-in-the-back >>>> >>>> So what do I win? :) Also take note of the following statment: >>>> >>>> "and pound for pound there was more dead Amdahl hardware repackaged as >>>> kitsch on the desks in sales than we had actually moved in Amdahl >>>> equipment. >>> I'm feeling a need for something like that to hang on my wall. >> I feel a need for something like that to be running in my house. > > How cold is it where you are? Not particularly right now. I'm in New York. Peace... Sridhar From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Oct 14 15:10:54 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:10:54 +0200 Subject: a DG /20 up for auction Message-ID: <48F4FCCE.5020602@bluewin.ch> A local auction site ( Switzerland ) lists a Data General DG/20 Micreclipse system. I believe it is rare enough to mention here . I would take it but there is just so much you can tackle. http://www.ricardo.ch/accdb/viewitem.asp?AuctionNr=550137758 Jos From james at jdfogg.com Tue Oct 14 15:24:47 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:24:47 -0500 Subject: a DG /20 up for auction Message-ID: <48f5000f.44.ef8.14646@jdfogg.com> > A local auction site ( Switzerland ) lists a Data General > DG/20 Micreclipse system. I believe it is rare enough to > mention here . > > I would take it but there is just so much you can tackle. > http://www.ricardo.ch/accdb/viewitem.asp?AuctionNr=550137758 That is beautiful. And small. And and probably an odd voltage for the USA. I can provide 220V, but if it requires 50hz I'm out of luck. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 14 15:39:52 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:39:52 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, I saw a 2.7kF (no, not a typo!) low-voltage electrolytic in > a catalogue recently. And to think that when I was at school the physics > 'teacher' told us that a 1F capacitor would be 'larger than this room' > and that we'd never seen on. About a week later I dropped a square plasic > object on his deck -- a 1F capacitor that I'd bought from Farnell or > somewhere. I remember having a similar conversation with my 'O' Grade Physics teacher in high school, about how a 1F capacitor would be huge and impractical. "Hang on a sec", I thought, "I've got 1000uF capacitors and they're about the size of my thumb. My Dad's got 10000uF capacitors for his audio amps, and they're the size of a coke can. I reckon 100 such capacitors would fit in my schoolbag, at worst..." And that's how I learned that school wasn't going to teach me anything useful, or basically true. Gordon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 14 15:53:12 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:53:12 -0600 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> References: <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48F506B8.9090006@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > > I remember having a similar conversation with my 'O' Grade Physics > teacher in high school, about how a 1F capacitor would be huge and > impractical. "Hang on a sec", I thought, "I've got 1000uF capacitors > and they're about the size of my thumb. My Dad's got 10000uF > capacitors for his audio amps, and they're the size of a coke can. I > reckon 100 such capacitors would fit in my schoolbag, at worst..." > > And that's how I learned that school wasn't going to teach me anything > useful, or basically true. All charged up for the the teacher to hold... ;) > All > Gordon > From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 16:15:50 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:15:50 -0700 Subject: a DG /20 up for auction In-Reply-To: <48f5000f.44.ef8.14646@jdfogg.com> References: <48f5000f.44.ef8.14646@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 1:24 PM, james wrote: >> A local auction site ( Switzerland ) lists a Data General >> DG/20 Micreclipse system. I believe it is rare enough to >> mention here . >> >> I would take it but there is just so much you can tackle. >> > http://www.ricardo.ch/accdb/viewitem.asp?AuctionNr=550137758 > > > That is beautiful. And small. And and probably an odd > voltage for the USA. I can provide 220V, but if it requires > 50hz I'm out of luck. Indeed... quite a nice little system! Mark From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 14 16:33:16 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:33:16 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <282EE80A7D4E4FB588002E01FD1328B2@FLEXPC> Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, I saw a 2.7kF (no, not a typo!) low-voltage Don't these potentially "self-charge" to some degree? Just how much energy can one of these hold (what is its rated voltage?) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 14 16:35:15 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:35:15 +0100 Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <48F4E41C.4090104@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <412582F777FD41728D318AA9FAD7A942@FLEXPC> J Blaser wrote: > I doubt it would hurt any future use of the cable to pull/break the > pin on your monitor cable, but if you want to keep that side of > things stock, you could use a 1/32" bit and drill out the position on > the motherboard's connector, to allow the pin to pass through the > plastic. Well a 386 may not count as vintage yet (or ever ...) but isn't it more in keeping with the spirit of what we do here to hack, twist and bend the modern to fit in with the old, where possible? Shouldn't the OP pull a pin on a common or garden cable rather than drill a mobo connector? Antonio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 14 16:44:13 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:44:13 -0600 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <282EE80A7D4E4FB588002E01FD1328B2@FLEXPC> References: <282EE80A7D4E4FB588002E01FD1328B2@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <48F512AD.4010209@jetnet.ab.ca> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Incidentally, I saw a 2.7kF (no, not a typo!) low-voltage >> > > Don't these potentially "self-charge" to some degree? > > Just how much energy can one of these hold (what is its > rated voltage?) > > Antonio > > I have no idea , but 2 volts feels right. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 14 16:49:08 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:49:08 -0400 Subject: was "Re: old 386 pc, vga port" now DS1287 Message-ID: <21873.1224020948@mini> "Antonio Carlini" wrote: > >Well a 386 may not count as vintage yet (or ever ...) but isn't it more >in keeping with the spirit of what we do here to hack, twist and bend >the modern to fit in with the old, where possible? Shouldn't the OP pull >a pin on a common or garden cable rather than drill a mobo connector? I pulled the pin :-) I got the compaq setup program to work but it would still not boot. I'm sure the DS1287 rtc has lost it's battery but I would have thought it would be ok as long as I didn't turn off the power. I reset all the settings but it complains when I reboot that it does not have it's settings. %^$^$^%$#$. Am I high to think that if I buy one of the DS1287's on ebay it might work? Or all those so old that it's a waste of money? Anyone try lately? A while back I brought an IPX back to life replacing the dallas chip, but that was easily 5 years ago, maybe longer. (I even tried putting the old compaq ESDI controller in a newer pc, but it's not happy; it does auto discover the drive & geometry but the boot fails with an error that looks like a bios problem) I'm going after the DS1287 with a dremel tonight and solder a 3v battery to it :-) hi ho! -brad From jim at photojim.ca Tue Oct 14 17:00:19 2008 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:00:19 -0600 Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? References: <412582F777FD41728D318AA9FAD7A942@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <4A865EA60B60468E8AA61CB28BE4F187@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Carlini" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 3:35 PM Subject: RE: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? > Well a 386 may not count as vintage yet (or ever ...) but isn't it more > in keeping with the spirit of what we do here to hack, twist and bend > the modern to fit in with the old, where possible? Shouldn't the OP pull > a pin on a common or garden cable rather than drill a mobo connector? I don't think it's a bad idea. Drilling the pin means modern cables (for the forseeable future at least) will fit the machine. If the machine is in pristine collectible condition, then I might be more prone to modifying a cable instead, but modifying the plug on the machine will be far more convenient. Is the goal to keep the machine original and collectible, or to make it usable? The goals are somewhat at odds. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 14 17:00:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:00:24 -0700 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> References: , <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48F4B408.615.2A8406EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2008 at 21:39, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I remember having a similar conversation with my 'O' Grade Physics > teacher in high school, about how a 1F capacitor would be huge and > impractical. "Hang on a sec", I thought, "I've got 1000uF capacitors > and they're about the size of my thumb. My Dad's got 10000uF capacitors > for his audio amps, and they're the size of a coke can. I reckon 100 > such capacitors would fit in my schoolbag, at worst..." Some schoolbag that holds most of 17 six-packs of Coke! To be fair to your teacher, some capacitor banks are very large. I do not know the working voltage or capacitance of the following: http://www.rheinmetall.de/index.php?fid=1805&lang=3 Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Oct 14 17:03:26 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:03:26 -0500 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F512AD.4010209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <282EE80A7D4E4FB588002E01FD1328B2@FLEXPC> <48F512AD.4010209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48F5172E.4020503@pacbell.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Antonio Carlini wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Incidentally, I saw a 2.7kF (no, not a typo!) low-voltage >>> >> >> Don't these potentially "self-charge" to some degree? >> >> Just how much energy can one of these hold (what is its >> rated voltage?) >> >> Antonio >> >> > I have no idea , but 2 volts feels right. > What? That answer is nonsense. Voltage and energy are two very different things, as you must know. The correct answer can be found by using the equation E=mc^2. How massive is this 2.7kF capacitor? :-) From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 14 17:34:25 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:34:25 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F5172E.4020503@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim Battle wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > What? That answer is nonsense. The answer wasn't stated so it cannot be nonsense. Or maybe, like the cat in the box, it both is and isn't until you look :-) > Voltage and energy are two very different things, as you must know. > The correct answer can be found by using the equation E=mc^2. How > massive is this 2.7kF capacitor? :-) As long as the capacitor isn't moving or changing shape or composition[*], then you might find 0.5*C*V*V to be the energy. C was given, I was looking for a possible V. Maybe we're drifting too far off topic. For how long could such a capacitor, fully charged, keep a ZX80 running, assuming a 100% efficient inverter? Antonio [*] ISTR a problem stated in an old issue of an IEE magazine: Take an oil filled jar used as a capacitor of capacitance C. Charge it to voltage V. Disconnect the voltage source. Drain the oil into an identical capacitor (initially uncharged). Describe the final disposition of charges, voltages, energy, anything else that takes your fancy. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 14 17:38:55 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <412582F777FD41728D318AA9FAD7A942@FLEXPC> References: <412582F777FD41728D318AA9FAD7A942@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <20081014153549.H68258@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Well a 386 may not count as vintage yet (or ever ...) but isn't it more > in keeping with the spirit of what we do here to hack, twist and bend > the modern to fit in with the old, where possible? Shouldn't the OP pull > a pin on a common or garden cable rather than drill a mobo connector? Why? By drilling out the unused position of the connector, he makes it more versatile in which cables it can connect with. No longer will he be limited to male cables in which the unused pin has been removed. 'course I don't see any problem with drilling out the 16 keys of a DB9. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From g-wright at att.net Tue Oct 14 17:39:45 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:39:45 +0000 Subject: a DG /20 , software needed ??? In-Reply-To: References: <48f5000f.44.ef8.14646@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <101420082239.22324.48F51FB0000E27140000573422230650629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Mark Davidson" : -------------- > On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 1:24 PM, james wrote: > >> A local auction site ( Switzerland ) lists a Data General > >> DG/20 Micreclipse system. I believe it is rare enough to > >> mention here . > Mark Anyone have the OS for one of theses. It's been on my needed list for years. - Jerry g-wright at att.net From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Oct 14 17:52:17 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:52:17 -0500 Subject: was "Re: old 386 pc, vga port" now DS1287 In-Reply-To: <21873.1224020948@mini> References: <21873.1224020948@mini> Message-ID: <48F522A1.8070201@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Am I high to think that if I buy one of the DS1287's on ebay it might > work? Or all those so old that it's a waste of money? Anyone try > lately? I've bought DS1287s off eBay that work fine. I always socket the little bastards when I replace them though. :) > I'm going after the DS1287 with a dremel tonight and solder a 3v battery > to it :-) hi ho! I've considered buying a minimum lot of new ones from Maxim. that'd set me up for another 20 years or so. I'd have about 992 to sell, too! Doc From gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz Tue Oct 14 18:17:06 2008 From: gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz (Gavin Melville) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:17:06 +1300 Subject: Supercaps (was PET composite video adapter) References: Message-ID: <0ED00BE25A52486DA6C4BAC585A4D08C@acclipsegavin> Hi, I have designed products using 150F 2.7 volts caps, and like a lot of these things the devil is in the details. The supercaps take a while to charge -- we limit the current to 2 amps. The charge is not like most capacitors -- they have a sort of dielectric soak effect, where charge doesn't reach the remote areas for a while -- maybe 10's of minutes. We use them down to 0.5volts, and would like to go lower, but it's hard work. Simply turn joules into watts for x seconds to work out the energy available. In practice we get 300 joules out of the 550 stored in the above capacitor -- the rest is lost to self discharge, the bit below 0.5volts, convertor losses when the voltage gets low, convertor losses stepping up to 3.3 volts etc. The normal discharge and charge curves are quite different on these supercaps -- due to all this hidden energy. >From memory the simple formulas were JoulesNeeded = (VoltageWorking + VoltageMinimum)/2 * LoadCurrent * Time. In my case (2.7+0.5)/2*0.05amps*1800seconds = 144 joules needed. Then Capacitance = 2 * VoltageWorking * LoadCurrent * Time / (VoltageWorking^2 - VoltageMinimum^2), in this case 41 Farads. Factor in a whole lot of losses and I needed 150 - 170 Farads to give 50mA for 30 minutes. The really neat trick would be to have put two in series -- CV^2 helps here, because (obviously) the capacitance halves, but the voltage squares. I played around for ages trying to balance the charge on the two caps -- isolated chargers -- the whole bit, but never got anything to work whose self discharge current wasn't more than the gain from having 5.4 volts. > Maybe we're drifting too far off topic. For how long could > such a capacitor, fully charged, keep a ZX80 running, assuming > a 100% efficient inverter? > > Antonio > > [*] ISTR a problem stated in an old issue of an IEE magazine: > > Take an oil filled jar used as a capacitor of capacitance C. > Charge it to voltage V. Disconnect the voltage source. Drain the > oil into an identical capacitor (initially uncharged). Describe > the final disposition of charges, voltages, energy, anything else > that takes your fancy. Intrigued by this -- any answers ? Regards, Gavin Melville. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 14 20:24:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:24:46 -0700 Subject: was "Re: old 386 pc, vga port" now DS1287 In-Reply-To: <48F522A1.8070201@mdrconsult.com> References: <21873.1224020948@mini>, <48F522A1.8070201@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <48F4E3EE.18900.2B3F1D87@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2008 at 17:52, Doc Shipley wrote: > I've considered buying a minimum lot of new ones from Maxim. that'd > set me up for another 20 years or so. I'd have about 992 to sell, too! Can you still get DS1287s from Maxim? I know you can still get DS12887s, but they're not always compatible. What might be best is to find someone's cache of MC146818As and forget about the internal battery. CHeers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Oct 14 20:41:19 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Deciphering disk format Message-ID: This is a somewhat OT request. I'm trying to recover files from a 4 disk (3.5") floppy set of Sybase SQL Anywhere for QNX Version 5.5.05. The first thing I tried to do is mount the disks under Linux using the QNX4 filesystem, but it bombs out. So I imaged the disks using ImageDisk (of course) and looked at the image file. It doesn't contain a filesystem as I had initially guessed, so now I'm trying to figure out what it represents. As best as I can currently determine it looks to be some sort of archive that spans across multiple disks. I'm not sure if this is a Sybase specific format, a QNX specific format, or what. The disks all have the following similar header information on T0, S0: vol 00001 00002 000000 5d69b244 11/Jul/99-17:00 wsql50 Disk 2 has: vol 00002 00002 000000 f9f96f2f 11/Jul/99-17:00 wsql50 ...etc. So the first group of digits is obviously the disk number, the third group is probably some CRC hash, etc. The contents of the disk are entirely binary. There is no text, lending further evidence that this is some sort of compressed archive. Does anyone recognize this as a header for a known archive format? Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 14 20:42:51 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:42:51 -0600 Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:06:38 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > I wonder how long it'll be before modern OSes run entirely within the > > framebuffer, and use the system CPU purely for IO... :-) > > I think I've mentioned before that I have an old Xterminal that uses and > 80188 for I/O (keyboard, mouse, serial port, ethernet, etc) but runs the > Xserver on the (TMS34010) video chip. Tony, do you have pictures or techie docs on this thing? It sounds interesting! I admit to having read a lot about TMS340x0 display processors, but I never got to program directly for one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Oct 14 20:45:09 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:45:09 -0500 Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <17089.1224003030@mini> References: <17089.1224003030@mini> Message-ID: <48F54B25.6050906@oldskool.org> Brad Parker wrote: > This is something I've never seen before; I'm trying to revive an old > dead Compaq for a friend of a friend. > > I went to plug in a stock VGA cable (15 pin) and it would not go. The > connector on the Dell motherboard (this is a very very old 386) has one > pin blocked. > > Someone here must know what that means; what do I do? grab the needle > nose and hack my cable? Yep! I'm guessing you have a Dell 316sx, like me. I picked a monitor I didn't care too much about and ripping the pin out. Works great. A lot of old 8-bit ISA VGA cards have this blocked out, and the Dell fixed-frequency monitor that came with my 316sx doesn't have this pin in the cable. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 14 20:45:30 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:45:30 -0600 Subject: a DG /20 up for auction In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:15:50 -0700. Message-ID: > > http://www.ricardo.ch/accdb/viewitem.asp?AuctionNr=550137758 When I try this URL, I get some error page in German. Did it get taken down already? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 14 21:01:29 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:01:29 -0400 Subject: a DG /20 up for auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810142201.29599.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 14 October 2008, Richard wrote: > > > http://www.ricardo.ch/accdb/viewitem.asp?AuctionNr=550137758 > > When I try this URL, I get some error page in German. Did it get > taken down already? I can't read German, but the message looks like the site is undergoing maintenance from 1-6am. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From us21090 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 21:03:10 2008 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple ][* stuff needs new homes Message-ID: <103825.70210.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, Thanks to all who responded with the good information. For now my plan is to put a decent Apple ][ together for keeps and sell the other software and hardware. I listed it at http://www.applefritter.com/node/23531 I have put up a few items on ebay : Apple II Pascal Apple II Fortran Apple II GEOS Apple II Software Cassettes I'll be putting more up there over the next couple weeks. If you like Apple stuff keep a watch for ebay seller "10types". I want to spare cctalk these "I'm selling this and this and this" posts. BTW, I told those who responded to me that I just remembered a fun college project with an Apple II, Pascal and a Diablo print wheel printer (actually a print terminal). I programmed it to form graphics and mathematical symbols by taking advantage of the Diablo's micro-spacing features (controlled with escape sequences). Does anyone else remember that? When? Well... I graduated college in 1981 (way back after the discovery of the first bit). Scott ----- Original Message ---- > From: Scott Austin > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 2:28:06 PM > Subject: Apple ][* stuff needs new homes > > All, > Out of the shadows to say, I need to sell/trade/other my Apple ][* gear. > > I've detailed some of the Apple ][* items at > http://www.applefritter.com/node/23531 > > I'm also interested in hearing which items may be more valuable and > worth putting up on ebay (be that as it is). > > If you have any interest or comments, contact me off-list. > > Thanks, > Scott > us21090 at yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 14 21:11:56 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:11:56 -0600 Subject: Apple IIe or Apple //gs FORTH or LOGO recommendations? Message-ID: Does anyone have any particular recommendations for a FORTH or LOGO environment on an Apple IIe or an Apple //gs? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 21:18:04 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:18:04 -0400 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F552DC.4040703@gmail.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Maybe we're drifting too far off topic. For how long could > such a capacitor, fully charged, keep a ZX80 running, assuming > a 100% efficient inverter? Why an inverter? Peace... Sridhar From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 21:39:09 2008 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:39:09 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe or Apple //gs FORTH or LOGO recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380810141939x3f14b2b1i3425c0420c1d8da7@mail.gmail.com> GraFORTH brian On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have any particular recommendations for a FORTH or LOGO > environment on an Apple IIe or an Apple //gs? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Oct 14 22:23:14 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:23:14 +0000 Subject: was "Re: old 386 pc, vga port" now DS1287 In-Reply-To: <48F522A1.8070201@mdrconsult.com> References: <21873.1224020948@mini> <48F522A1.8070201@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20081015032314.GC12640@usap.gov> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 05:52:17PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: > > >Am I high to think that if I buy one of the DS1287's on ebay it might > >work? Or all those so old that it's a waste of money? Anyone try > >lately? > > I've bought DS1287s off eBay that work fine. I always socket the > little bastards when I replace them though. :) I did that with my Compaq 286/SLT, using a low-profile socket, and that made it too tall to fit under the bottom of the battery bay. Since I didn't have a battery, I drimelled a hole in the floor of the battery bay and it fits reasonably well. For a desktop machine, of course, there's rarely any concern of vertical clearance. > >I'm going after the DS1287 with a dremel tonight and solder a 3v battery > >to it :-) hi ho! > > I've considered buying a minimum lot of new ones from Maxim. that'd > set me up for another 20 years or so. I'd have about 992 to sell, too! 20 years? I thought the Li batteries had closer to a 10-year shelf life. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Oct-2008 at 03:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -72.0 F (-57.8 C) Windchill -101.1 F (-73.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.6 kts Grid 79 Barometer 663.5 mb (11257 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Wed Oct 15 00:13:08 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:13:08 -0600 Subject: Lot of 4 VAXstation II/GPX in Mass. Message-ID: <48F57BE4.1070309@rogerwilco.org> eBay item 360098064240 I'm not usually one to spam the list, but thought someone local might be interested. Looks like a nice opening price, with no reserve. I have no relationship with the seller. - Jared From Nick.Jarmany at quixant.co.uk Tue Oct 14 03:39:21 2008 From: Nick.Jarmany at quixant.co.uk (Nick Jarmany) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:39:21 +0100 Subject: "scrap" auction... References: <200810140653.m9E6rMgk030198@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >> Anybody recognize the board in this lot: >> >> 120314777595 >> >> transputer maybe? I hope the bidder isn't really going >> to reclaim the obvious "pounds" of gold on it. > >The logo on top of each post looks like the Fairchild logo. The numbers >suggest a date of 1976, but it looks *very* high tech for something of that >vintage. > >Alexis. I'm certainly no expert on mainframes, but I do recognise a Fujitsu logo when I see one. So, my money is on this being a board out of a Fujitsu mainframe computer. Chips like that, with cooling towers etc.... Maybe ECL logic? I remember many years ago visiting Fujitsu's main development location. The whole of the basement was constructed as a museum of all Fujitsu major products over the years, including tons of computer stuff. I remember marvelling at PCBs with 20+ signal layers and integral fluid cooling etc, in the days when most PCBs were only double sided or 4 layers at best. Fascinating stuff! I suspect the winner of the auction has got himself something that would have cost major $$$ when new. Nick Jarmany From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 07:13:02 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: References: <48EED904.8090603@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Rik Bos wrote: > Al Kossow wrote on 10-5-2008 : > > UNIX PC 3.51 development floppies > > are now up under > http://bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/unixPC > > with the exception of the virtual device interface disk, which was > completely unreadable (seems odd, since all the rest read > perfectly) > > Am I missing something ? I sent Al an image of that diskette (which is 8-sectors per track as opposed to 9 for the rest of them), but never had any response or acknowledgement. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 07:15:46 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software In-Reply-To: <48F32605.12405.247153B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48F16EFB.705@bitsavers.org>, <3383B6CF4E4E@dunfield.com> <48F32605.12405.247153B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Oct 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Oct 2008 at 6:50, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>> > Does it fail to see any sectors at all? >>> >>> Correct. I haven't tried a catweasel on it yet to see >>> what the details of the sectors are. >> >> Then most likely there is some other factor in the 8-sector format >> which makes it incompatible with the PC disk controller... > > Given (a) that these are 48 tpi 5.25" DD diskettes and (b) that the > 3B1 uses a WD2797 at standard data rates, you should *at least* see > returns from a Read ID operation. ISTR that while the 2797 could > format using a variety of DAMs, there's only one recognized MFM IDAM > and it must be preceded by three A1s to be recognized reliably. I had no problems at all reading that diskette on my Linux box and capturing a 'dd' image. Al, I sent this to you but never received any response. Did you not receive it? Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 07:51:13 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Also, anyone know if there if it is possible to slow the spindle speed >> so that 1.44M can be done on machines that only have DD data rate ? >> (and if so, any of the above drives capable of being slowed ?) Would >> that even work ? > > Nobody has successfully used a 3.5" at 150RPM. Yet. > Besides the "normal" 300RPM drives, there are some 600RPM (old Sony), and > 360RPM (NEC and a few others) That's not entirely correct. Amiga 3000 and 4000 machines had a Chinon drive mechanism that could run at 1/2 speed in order to write hi-density formats with an FDC chip no capable of running at high data rates. -- From Nick.Jarmany at quixant.co.uk Tue Oct 14 08:53:14 2008 From: Nick.Jarmany at quixant.co.uk (Nick Jarmany) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:53:14 +0100 Subject: "scrap" auction... References: <200810140653.m9E6rMgk030198@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >> Anybody recognize the board in this lot: >> >> 120314777595 >> >> transputer maybe? I hope the bidder isn't really going >> to reclaim the obvious "pounds" of gold on it. > >The logo on top of each post looks like the Fairchild logo. The numbers >suggest a date of 1976, but it looks *very* high tech for something of that >vintage. > >Alexis. I'm certainly no expert on mainframes, but I do recognise a Fujitsu logo when I see one. So, my money is on this being a board out of a Fujitsu mainframe computer. Chips like that, with cooling towers etc.... Maybe ECL logic? I remember many years ago visiting Fujitsu's main development location. The whole of the basement was constructed as a museum of all Fujitsu major products over the years, including tons of computer stuff. I remember marvelling at PCBs with 20+ signal layers and integral fluid cooling etc, in the days when most PCBs were only double sided or 4 layers at best. Fascinating stuff! I suspect the winner of the auction has got himself something that would have cost major $$$ when new. Nick Jarmany From josecvalle at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 09:14:36 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:14:36 -0200 Subject: Wanted: ISO image of DEC 40th Anniversary CD In-Reply-To: <96311.97787.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <48E6710F.3000102@crash.com> <96311.97787.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: hi, Steve and Willian.. I would like to take a copy .. JCarlos 2008/10/14 William Maddox > --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Steven M Jones wrote: > > > I don't especially care about the physical artifact, > > I'd just like to > > see what's on the thing. Anybody know where I can grab > > an ISO image? > > Hi, Steve. > > The disk has arrived. I didn't follow all of the ensuing > discussion on classiccmp. Did anyone post a satisfactory > disk image online, or do you still need a copy? > > Best regards, > > --Bill > > -- Jos? Carlos Valle ? Presidente curador Av Jandira, 257 - 6 andar s 64 - Moema.- CEP 04088-001 www.museudocomputador.com.br Blog do curador:--http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br Tel office: 011 2609-6959 - celular prov: 8794-6730 Tel skype 3013-3946 - "Tudo posso naquele que fortalece, Felipenses 4:13" From jefferwin at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 12:56:58 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:56:58 -0700 Subject: PLM80 V4 docs needed Message-ID: <7c7c96a50810141056l79ba2375mcfe935249e6973a1@mail.gmail.com> >Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/13/2008 1:44 PM: >> OK, time again to dust off the old brains out there. I found a ("the") >> ISIS-II emulator that runs under dos, which comes with a PLM80 compiler. It >> also comes with link, locate, objhex and other goodies. The PLM80 compiler >> identifies itself as PLM80 V4. I worked on the development of the ISIS-II >> stuff at Intel in the very early 80's as well as on the National >> Semiconductor Starplex system (anyone remember that one?) so I am able to > >tinker around and remember how most of this works, but version 4 of the > >PLM80 compiler is getting the better of me. >> >Yes, I remember the Starplex. But about all I remember was that it was >NS's development system and competed with Intel's MDS. The Starplex was the NS answer to the MDS, but was much more 'late 70's' in its design. The prom programmer was built into the system, as was the screen and floppy drives. All very modular. I learned asm80 writing the editor and assembler for that beast. >> I have the PLM80 Programmer's Manual, but it is for earlier versions of the >>two-pass version of PLM80, version 4 was a single pass version that used the >>inker and locator, all of which was the precursor to the PLM86 compiler and >> tools. I believe this version came out shortly before the 8086 was >> introduced, everyone went on to the segmented world and never looked back, >> which may explain why there isn't much out there for it. I am not able to >> locate any information on this version 4 of PLM80 anywhere, and the use and >> format is definitiely different from prior versions of PLM80. >> >I've used PL/M-80 extensively in the past, but I don't remember V4 being >that much different than earlier versions. All versions of PL/M-80 that >ran under ISIS-II used the linker and locater. The only version that I >know of that didn't was the Fortran version that ran on mainframes. It >produced absolute object code, usually in the form of an Intel hex format. Version 4 was radically different from the 3.X and prior versions. The earlier versions used the $X controls, version 4 used the controls that were then used in the PLM86 compiler. Also, the DATA statement was eliminated and other language constructs were changed. PLM80 V3 code would not compile without mods. I remember it being released at about the same time the 8086 and PLM86 was was released and the effort was to make PLM80 and PLM86 somewhat similar. The PLM80 3.x docs are pretty much worthless if you are using the 4.0 compiler. 4.0 was also one executable, a big change from the PLM81 and PLM82 2-pass method the earlier versions used. >> Anyone out there have any information or pointers for me? I have tried all >> of the excellent repositories of manuals and emailed Herb, his site >> indicates that he might have what I need. Anyone have an ISIS-II set of >> manuals sitting around that can check for me? >> >I'm sure I have a version of the manual that applies to V4 of the >compiler. It *may* be in pdf form, but certainly on paper. Are there >some specific questions that you have? I'll check when I get home >tonight. At work now. I'd love to get a copy of whatever you have relative to 4.0. Emailing the PDF is probably easiest, I am more than happy to pay any costs associated. >> Specifically, I am in need of: >> >> 98-00268B plm 80 programming manual, V4 >> >> Thanks. >> >> Jeff Erwin >> >> By the way, I am running the ISIS-II emulator in a DOS box under windows, >> itself an emulator. Windows is running under Parallels on my Mac Pro which >> is running OSx. Is it possible to get further from reality here?? >> >I've done many "jobs" using that DOS emulator. It works great! And >these days it is much faster than my real MDS systems. But it isn't >nearly as elegant as the big blue box powering up, dimming the lights in >my house, and the whir of cooling fans and glow of a real crt. Oh, >those were the days. >Dave Yes indeed! The rumble of the 7Mb hard drive (14" across if I remember right) as it spun up. My favorite, of course, is the famous "Error 7, User PC = xxxx" which covered almost every error you could make... From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Oct 14 14:28:09 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:28:09 -0700 Subject: Keyboard for Beehive Terminal (was B-100)? In-Reply-To: <48F46D03.16024.296E9D04@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <48F46D03.16024.296E9D04@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48F4F2C9.2020307@msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's been awhile since I owned a couple of SuperBees, but they used > welded-aluminum slab-sided cases and not the fiberglass one shown in > the photo. The whole front CRT area was covered with a sheet of > brown-tinted acrylic, held on with velcro-ish plastic fasteners. The > keyboard itself was parallel output ASCII and had two shades of beige > for most keys with yellow special-function keys. Several keys had > little round "windows" illuminated by bi-pin lamps. The keyboard > case could have been aluminum, but might also have been die-cast zinc- > -I don't recall, except that it didn't have the sharp corners the > main unit did. > > The SuperBees were page-editing terminals; you could shoot a page of > text to it, edit it offline and then hit TRANSMIT to send the text > back to the host. It was also possible to get the terminal into a > state where you needed to cycle the power to get it out of some > unresponsive condition. When transmitting a page, 1F (hex) was used > as an EOL character. > > CPU in these was an 8008 with shift-register storage. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > That describes the terminal I have to a T. Aluminum casing, brown acrylic front, and 8008 CPU. Mine's dingy as heck on the outside but amazingly clean inside. Someone's done some hackery to the PCB in an attempt to consolidate several EPROMs into one, it looks like. Thanks, Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 14 15:24:25 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F4952A.8080607@gmail.com> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch><48F2863A.2080706@gjcp.net> <200810130055.UAA13935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <101320081435.3124.48F35CA000030E2400000C3422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> <48F3765C.50309@arachelian.com> <200810131715.NAA18900@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <48F4952A.8080607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200810142029.QAA03025@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Yeah, and I've yet to find one that supports interfaces I can >> actually stand (as user and programmer). > Bah, write your own wrapper that you can stand - That might work in some cases for API ugliness. It can't help when the toolkit imposes UI policy and that policy is what I can't stand. (As a really simple example, it's damn near impossible to get some things out of reverse video; I find large bright areas of screen real estate to be incompatible with extended use.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 14 15:56:15 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> References: <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200810142102.RAA03217@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > My Dad's got 10000uF capacitors for his audio amps, and they're the > size of a coke can. I reckon 100 such capacitors would fit in my > schoolbag, at worst..." That's a big schoolbag. I regularly carry five dozen 341-ml aluminum cans in my backpack (they're iced tea cans, not pop cans, but they're standard pop-can size), and it's a big backpack and they fill it right full up. 100 would be five-thirds as much, more like a sports equipment bag. And, of course, it depend heavily on the working voltage. a 1Fd 5V cap is generally smaller than a 1Fd 50V cap. (And, now that supercaps have shown up, low-voltage caps have gotten even smaller.) > And that's how I learned that school wasn't going to teach me > anything useful, or basically true. Well, you'd already learned to sanity-check claims you hear, which is arguably a more valuable lesson. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 14 17:46:24 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F5172E.4020503@pacbell.net> References: <282EE80A7D4E4FB588002E01FD1328B2@FLEXPC> <48F512AD.4010209@jetnet.ab.ca> <48F5172E.4020503@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200810142303.TAA03869@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Just how much energy can one of these hold (what is its rated >>> voltage?) >> I have no idea , but 2 volts feels right. > What? That answer is nonsense. > Voltage and energy are two very different things, as you must know. Yes. Two questions were asked (one of them parenthetical); the answer given answers one of them (but only that one, at least directly). It's not all _that_ difficult to work out the energy given the voltage and capacitance: joules equals farads times volts squared, which gives me 10.8kJ for 2.7kF at 2V. Kilojoules to watt-hours is a factor of 3.6, so 10.8kJ is 3WH. So, assuming a 100% efficient converter that works at any nonzero input voltage (which is admittedly unrealistic), it will run a hypothetical legacy machine drawing 1A at 5V for..um..3/5 of an hour, which is thirty-six minutes. Or, it'll juice a 100W light bulb for 108 seconds. (Um. Farads times volts squared. What is a squared volt? I suppose it's a bit like the squared seconds involved in acceleration.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From malcolm_h at optusnet.com.au Tue Oct 14 19:19:07 2008 From: malcolm_h at optusnet.com.au (malcolm_h) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:19:07 +1000 Subject: DEC LA75 printer Message-ID: <000601c92e5b$a472ac10$f53fefdc@charlie> Greetings from an old DEC Tech, Australia. I have a number of DEC LA 75 printers for repair. I am looking for circuit diagrams/ service manual for the LA 75 printer family. Can you help ..just a circuit diagram for the electronics board would be of assistance. Regards, Malcolm Holroyd malcolm_h at optusnet.com.au 31 Renwick Street, Marrickville. NSW Australia. 2204 Ph: 61 2 9558 7808 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 14 18:03:47 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810142319.TAA03950@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [*] ISTR a problem stated in an old issue of an IEE magazine: > Take an oil filled jar used as a capacitor of capacitance C. Charge > it to voltage V. Disconnect the voltage source. Drain the oil into an > identical capacitor (initially uncharged). Describe the final > disposition of charges, voltages, energy, anything else that takes > your fancy. Ouch. That makes the electrostatics part of my brain hurt. :) I'm reminded of the time I asked someone "energy has mass, right? so why don't batteries get heavier when you charge them?". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue Oct 14 22:33:48 2008 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:33:48 -0600 Subject: a DG /20 up for auction References: <200810142201.29599.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <192201c92e76$d7dcf310$a5b8d146@linksys> Note that this Desktop Generation does not appear to have any hard disk drive, only dual floppies. DG/RDOS [nor AOS or AOS/WS] will not run on that configuration... Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 08:01 PM Subject: Re: a DG /20 up for auction > On Tuesday 14 October 2008, Richard wrote: >> > > http://www.ricardo.ch/accdb/viewitem.asp?AuctionNr=550137758 >> >> When I try this URL, I get some error page in German. Did it get >> taken down already? > > I can't read German, but the message looks like the site is undergoing > maintenance from 1-6am. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Oct 15 03:03:15 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 04:03:15 -0400 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+, FIXED :) Message-ID: <8CAFCB39CB6BC0C-16D8-AA@FWM-M06.sysops.aol.com> > The later the version, the more MSCP boot devices are > supported, and you're supposed to upgrade the ROMs in a KDF11 to match > those in the RQDX1 or RQDX2 controller *and* vice-versa, and you should > definitely use -BF or later for RQDX3.? Version -BG (called -BH in some > places, it's the same ROM set and same code) introduced TK50 boot > support, and -BJ refined that to make it more reliable. That would make sense, then. I had the -BF proms, when my 11/23+ had an RQDX3 and some RD52's. (This was back around 1990-ish) At that time, I was using?a Cipher F880?under?TSV05 emulation, so I wouldn't have noticed the lack of MU boot support. . .?? The TK50 was on my "new" 11/73. Darned if I can remember what I was running for disk back then. Fujitsu Eagle, with an SC03, maybe???? ;-) T From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Oct 15 04:08:38 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 05:08:38 -0400 Subject: DEC LA75 printer Message-ID: <8CAFCBCBF0A90F4-16D8-165@FWM-M06.sysops.aol.com> I've seen an assortment of LA75 printers, many "new in the box" on e-bay over the last several months.???Several were selling for $19.95, plus shipping per printer. . . I'm not sure what they're going for "today", but it might be worth looking into.? .? . T From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 15 04:38:07 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:38:07 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <200810142102.RAA03217@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> <200810142102.RAA03217@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48F5B9FF.6030106@gjcp.net> der Mouse wrote: >> My Dad's got 10000uF capacitors for his audio amps, and they're the >> size of a coke can. I reckon 100 such capacitors would fit in my >> schoolbag, at worst..." > > That's a big schoolbag. I regularly carry five dozen 341-ml aluminum > cans in my backpack (they're iced tea cans, not pop cans, but they're > standard pop-can size), and it's a big backpack and they fill it right > full up. 100 would be five-thirds as much, more like a sports > equipment bag. That's about right. I used to carry a lot of fairly random stuff about... > And, of course, it depend heavily on the working voltage. a 1Fd 5V cap > is generally smaller than a 1Fd 50V cap. (And, now that supercaps have > shown up, low-voltage caps have gotten even smaller.) > >> And that's how I learned that school wasn't going to teach me >> anything useful, or basically true. > > Well, you'd already learned to sanity-check claims you hear, which is > arguably a more valuable lesson. :-) Now *that* is true... Gordon From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 08:49:59 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:49:59 -0400 Subject: Lot of 4 VAXstation II/GPX in Mass. In-Reply-To: <48F57BE4.1070309@rogerwilco.org> References: <48F57BE4.1070309@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: Don't forget this item: 360098065831 Lot of 5 vaxstation3100-M76 Damn, I wish I was local, I'd take the lot of 5 those vaxstation II's are too big for me though :( Dan. > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:13:08 -0600> From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org> To: > Subject: Lot of 4 VAXstation II/GPX in Mass.> > eBay item 360098064240> > I'm not usually one to spam the list, but thought someone local> might be interested. Looks like a nice opening price, with no> reserve. I have no relationship with the seller.> > - Jared> _________________________________________________________________ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 15 11:40:39 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:40:39 -0600 Subject: Keyboard for Beehive Terminal (was B-100)? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:57:23 -0700. <48F46D03.16024.296E9D04@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <48F46D03.16024.296E9D04 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > It's been awhile since I owned a couple of SuperBees, but they used > welded-aluminum slab-sided cases and not the fiberglass one shown in > the photo. The whole front CRT area was covered with a sheet of > brown-tinted acrylic, held on with velcro-ish plastic fasteners. The > keyboard itself was parallel output ASCII and had two shades of beige > for most keys with yellow special-function keys. Several keys had > little round "windows" illuminated by bi-pin lamps. The keyboard > case could have been aluminum, but might also have been die-cast zinc- > -I don't recall, except that it didn't have the sharp corners the > main unit did. Yes, this is exactly the kind of Beehive terminal we were using. > CPU in these was an 8008 with shift-register storage. Interesting! I didn't realize it was shift-register storage for the display, but that makes sense. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 15 11:55:56 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:55:56 +0200 Subject: a DG /20 up for auction In-Reply-To: <192201c92e76$d7dcf310$a5b8d146@linksys> References: <200810142201.29599.pat@computer-refuge.org> <192201c92e76$d7dcf310$a5b8d146@linksys> Message-ID: <48F6209C.2060506@bluewin.ch> Bruce Ray wrote: > Note that this Desktop Generation does not appear to have any hard disk > drive, only dual floppies. DG/RDOS [nor AOS or AOS/WS] will not run on > that configuration... > Seller claims in his text that it boots RDOS from the floppies... If required, what kind of harddisk would be needed ? a ST506 type or a DG specific ? Jos From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 15 11:58:21 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:58:21 -0400 Subject: Heath ET100 Message-ID: <640F8A53-B97A-4DA1-93E3-FDC3268F603B@neurotica.com> Hey folks. Does anyone here have any information about the Heath ET100 "Educational Computer"? Specifically, I'm looking for keyboard protocol information, as I have one that's lacking a keyboard, but I'd like to find any other available documentation as well. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Oct 15 11:58:58 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:58:58 +0100 Subject: DEC LA75 printer In-Reply-To: <000601c92e5b$a472ac10$f53fefdc@charlie> Message-ID: <0DE882A04D094455A0FF6D7E74CAD3B6@FLEXPC> malcolm_h wrote: > Greetings from an old DEC Tech, Australia. > I have a number of DEC LA 75 printers for repair. > I am looking for circuit diagrams/ service manual for the > LA 75 printer family. Can you help ..just a circuit diagram for the > electronics board would be of assistance. I can dig out scans of the IPB and the service manual if they'll help. Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 15 12:56:45 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:56:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 14, 8 07:42:51 pm Message-ID: > > I think I've mentioned before that I have an old Xterminal that uses and > > 80188 for I/O (keyboard, mouse, serial port, ethernet, etc) but runs the > > Xserver on the (TMS34010) video chip. > > Tony, do you have pictures or techie docs on this thing? It sounds IIRC it's called a 'Princeton Ultra-X' No photos, but I''ll try to describe it (from memory). It's a 'pizza box' style of case, about 12" square and3" high, obviosuly designed to go under a monitor. It uses standard-ish PC peripherals, the monitor is a VGA one (DE15 conenctor), the keyboard connecotr is a 5 pin DIN socket -- a PC/AT keyboard works, but I rememebr some issues (keys not in the right place or something), and IIRC one of the setup meuus has a selection for 'Microsoft' or 'Logitech' mouse (the mouse port is a DE9 plug, wired as a PC/AT RS232 port). Just as well, as all I have is the unit iteslf, with none of the original peripherals. There are 5 PCBs inside the case. One just holds 2 LEDs. Another is the SMPSU. Which leaves 3 boards for digital stuff. One has the 80188 and peripheral interface chips -- I forget the details, but theu're all pretty standard. Another has The TMS34010, RAMDAC and lots of RAM on it. And the last is a daughterboard for that one and contains 10 or so EPROMs containing the XSerer and fonts. I don;t have any official docs, but I might be able to find a schematic for it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 15 12:45:07 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:45:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: old 386 pc, vga port - but one pin is blocked? In-Reply-To: <4A865EA60B60468E8AA61CB28BE4F187@JIMM> from "Jim MacKenzie" at Oct 14, 8 04:00:19 pm Message-ID: > > Well a 386 may not count as vintage yet (or ever ...) but isn't it more > > in keeping with the spirit of what we do here to hack, twist and bend > > the modern to fit in with the old, where possible? Shouldn't the OP pull > > a pin on a common or garden cable rather than drill a mobo connector? > > I don't think it's a bad idea. Drilling the pin means modern cables (for > the forseeable future at least) will fit the machine. If the machine is in > pristine collectible condition, then I might be more prone to modifying a > cable instead, but modifying the plug on the machine will be far more > convenient. > > Is the goal to keep the machine original and collectible, or to make it > usable? The goals are somewhat at odds. How about making up a short adapter cable with DE15 connectors at each end. On the computer end, have only 14 pins fitted (so it'll plug into the unmodified socket on the motherboard), on the monitor end have a socket with all 15 holes (so any monitor will plug in). That keeps the machine origianl and allows the use of any VGA monitor or cable Personally, though, for something like a PC, I'd just drill the hole in the socket. I don't mind making small modifications to my classic computers to improve useability. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 15 12:50:13 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:50:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <200810142303.TAA03869@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Oct 14, 8 06:46:24 pm Message-ID: > > >>> Just how much energy can one of these hold (what is its rated > >>> voltage?) > >> I have no idea , but 2 volts feels right. > > What? That answer is nonsense. > > Voltage and energy are two very different things, as you must know. > > Yes. Two questions were asked (one of them parenthetical); the answer > given answers one of them (but only that one, at least directly). > > It's not all _that_ difficult to work out the energy given the voltage > and capacitance: joules equals farads times volts squared, which gives THe energy in a capacitor is actually (1/2)*C*V^2. Basically, you have to consider charging the capacitor in small increments (dQ at a time) and effectively do the integral. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 15 12:39:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:39:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F50398.9060900@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Oct 14, 8 09:39:52 pm Message-ID: > And that's how I learned that school wasn't going to teach me anything > useful, or basically true. Ah,m another one. I learnt _absolutely nothing_ at school. Fortunately I'd already taught myself the things I thought I'd find useful. Everything they tried to teach me was either woefully incomplete or so wrong as to be laughable. I rememebr having a long arguement with a physics teacher who insisted a bridge circuit couldn't be used to measure capacitance, but only to compare capacitors. I am strill trying to find a definition of 'measurement' which does not involve comparison to a standard. -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Oct 15 13:10:16 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:10:16 -0600 Subject: Interesting X terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F63208.3060804@e-bbes.com> Richard wrote: > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >>> I wonder how long it'll be before modern OSes run entirely within the >>> framebuffer, and use the system CPU purely for IO... :-) >> I think I've mentioned before that I have an old Xterminal that uses and >> 80188 for I/O (keyboard, mouse, serial port, ethernet, etc) but runs the >> Xserver on the (TMS34010) video chip. > > Tony, do you have pictures or techie docs on this thing? It sounds > interesting! I admit to having read a lot about TMS340x0 display > processors, but I never got to program directly for one. Weren't the vt1000 and vt1300 also made like that ? 34010 and some OTS CPU for I/O ? Cheers From trebor72 at execpc.com Wed Oct 15 13:26:53 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:26:53 -0500 Subject: Looking for Gifford's Concurrent Dos-86 for CompuPro 8-16 Message-ID: <48F635ED.7020803@execpc.com> I am Looking for Gifford's Concurrent Dos-86 for CompuPro 8-16. I have a set of 8" Floppies but the Files are not complete. I need a CCP/M.sys that boots to Concurrent Dos-86 V 5.0 Hopefully someone out there can help me Bob in Wisconsin From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 15 13:38:39 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:38:39 -0600 Subject: Interesting X terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:10:16 -0600. <48F63208.3060804@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: In article <48F63208.3060804 at e-bbes.com>, "e.stiebler" writes: > Weren't the vt1000 and vt1300 also made like that ? > 34010 and some OTS CPU for I/O ? I don't know if it contains a 34010, but the vt1300 is basically a VAXstation 3100 with no disc, according to the web. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 15 14:10:17 2008 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting X terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:38:39 -0600 > From: Richard > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Interesting X terminals > > > In article <48F63208.3060804 at e-bbes.com>, > "e.stiebler" writes: > >> Weren't the vt1000 and vt1300 also made like that ? >> 34010 and some OTS CPU for I/O ? > > I don't know if it contains a 34010, but the vt1300 is basically a > VAXstation 3100 with no disc, according to the web. No 34010 in the VT1300, but the VT1200 has one (and X11.3? or maybe even X10 something in ROM) Peter Wallace From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 15 15:16:18 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:16:18 -0800 Subject: print-wheel/daisy-wheel printers / was Re: Apple ][* stuff needs new homes References: <103825.70210.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48F64F93.A9DD033B@cs.ubc.ca> Scott Austin wrote: > > BTW, I told those who responded to me that I just remembered a fun college project with an Apple II, Pascal and a Diablo print wheel printer (actually a print terminal). I programmed it to form graphics and mathematical symbols by taking advantage of the Diablo's micro-spacing features (controlled with escape sequences). Does anyone else remember that? When? Well... I graduated college in 1981 (way back after the discovery of the first bit). I sure do remember that: as an undergrad, my first task for an OS research project was to convert the system troff-style fixed-pitch text formatter to support proportional font spacing. Output was to a daisy-wheel printer (don't recall the actual printer manuf/model) using that same sort of micro-spacing feature. This would have been late-'79/early-'80, so the same time frame as your task. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 15 15:16:59 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:16:59 -0800 Subject: article ref to 50th birthday of video games Message-ID: <48F64FBB.F0760548@cs.ubc.ca> Old news for many here perhaps, but here's a writeup about physicist William Higinbotham's creation of "Tennis-for-two" at Brookhaven Labs in 1958: http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/10/15/tech-games.html Mentions how the initial inspiration came from reading the manual for an analog computer and how it could be used for ballistic trajectory calculations. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Oct 15 14:24:38 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:24:38 -0500 Subject: article ref to 50th birthday of video games In-Reply-To: <48F64FBB.F0760548@cs.ubc.ca> References: <48F64FBB.F0760548@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Neat. That predates the PDP-1 "spacewar" game, which I had thought of as the oldest. And it may still be the oldest video game on a digital computer. paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:17 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: article ref to 50th birthday of video games Old news for many here perhaps, but here's a writeup about physicist William Higinbotham's creation of "Tennis-for-two" at Brookhaven Labs in 1958: http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/10/15/tech-games.html Mentions how the initial inspiration came from reading the manual for an analog computer and how it could be used for ballistic trajectory calculations. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 15 14:36:01 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:36:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: print-wheel/daisy-wheel printers / was Re: Apple ][* stuff needs In-Reply-To: <48F64F93.A9DD033B@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 15, 8 12:16:18 pm Message-ID: > I sure do remember that: as an undergrad, my first task for an OS > research project was to convert the system troff-style fixed-pitch > text formatter > to support proportional font spacing. Output was to a daisy-wheel > printer (don't > recall the actual printer manuf/model) using that same sort of > micro-spacing feature. > > This would have been late-'79/early-'80, so the same time frame as your task. > I rmeembr a program called ApplePlot which included a routine to dump the Apple ][ hires display to a Qume Sprint 5 (I think) daisywheel printer. It used the microspacing features of this printer, and printed the image using only the full stop (period) character of the printwheel. It was, of course, slow, noisy, and hard on the printwheel... This sort of thing must have been fairly common, since I remember (and may still have somehwere) plastic daisywheels with a metal pin in the full stop character so that it would last longer if used like this (all other characfters were the normal moulded plastic ones). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 15 15:09:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:09:29 -0700 Subject: (Fwd) Re: print-wheel/daisy-wheel printers / was Re: Apple ][* Message-ID: <48F5EB89.17397.2F44CF07@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2008 at 12:16, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I sure do remember that: as an undergrad, my first task for an OS > research project was to convert the system troff-style fixed-pitch text formatter > to support proportional font spacing. Output was to a daisy-wheel printer (don't > recall the actual printer manuf/model) using that same sort of micro-spacing feature. > > This would have been late-'79/early-'80, so the same time frame as your task. The first impact printer that I owned was a Diablo 1340 (? the one with the very noisy separate PSU). Raw 12- bit interface. I hooked it to a 3-port S-100 parallel I/O board and then went about figuring out how to make it act like a regular printer under CP/M, including bidirectional logic seeking. I even wrote up proportional spacing tables and still have the code somewhere. Sometime in the late 70's, I picked up a copy of "Proportional Spacing with WordStar". It seems that WordStar 3.0+ did have hooks for PS, but they were a bit buggy. The document I purchased (still have it if anyone's interested) gives patches and workarounds for the bugs. I used it for quite awhile. FWIW, I have a Diablo 1620 (RO, serial interface) for adoption if anyone wants to see to packing and shipping. It works. Cheers, Chuck From dmabry at mich.com Wed Oct 15 15:17:46 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:17:46 -0400 Subject: PLM80 V4 docs needed In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50810141056l79ba2375mcfe935249e6973a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50810141056l79ba2375mcfe935249e6973a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F64FEA.8060605@mich.com> Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/14/2008 1:56 PM: > The Starplex was the NS answer to the MDS, but was much more 'late 70's' in > its design. The prom programmer was built into the system, as was the > screen and floppy drives. All very modular. I learned asm80 writing the > editor and assembler for that beast. > > snip > Version 4 was radically different from the 3.X and prior versions. The > earlier versions used the $X controls, version 4 used the controls that were > then used in the PLM86 compiler. Also, the DATA statement was eliminated > and other language constructs were changed. PLM80 V3 code would not compile > without mods. I remember it being released at about the same time the 8086 > and PLM86 was was released and the effort was to make PLM80 and PLM86 > somewhat similar. The PLM80 3.x docs are pretty much worthless if you are > using the 4.0 compiler. 4.0 was also one executable, a big change from the > PLM81 and PLM82 2-pass method the earlier versions used. > > I'm confused. I have V4 of the "resident" compiler, that is, the one that runs on an MDS Series II or MDS-800. Those machines had either an 8080 or an 8085 cpu. What follows is a directory list of the PL/M-80 V4 compiler that I have. It shows that there are 7 overlay files to this compiler. It is not one monolithic executable. Are you sure you aren't talking about the PL/M-86 compiler that runs on an MDS Series III? That one is 8086-based. 11/17/2004 05:10 PM 7,082 PLM80 11/17/2004 05:09 PM 5,615 PLM80.LIB 11/17/2004 05:14 PM 20,324 PLM80.OV0 11/17/2004 05:18 PM 18,732 PLM80.OV1 11/17/2004 05:23 PM 29,035 PLM80.OV2 11/17/2004 05:25 PM 7,874 PLM80.OV3 11/17/2004 05:28 PM 16,915 PLM80.OV4 11/17/2004 05:30 PM 8,857 PLM80.OV5 11/17/2004 05:33 PM 15,261 PLM80.OV6 If, indeed, you have an 8080-based compiler for PL/M-80 that is one large file, I would like to see that. It is new to me. snip > > I'd love to get a copy of whatever you have relative to 4.0. Emailing the > PDF is probably easiest, I am more than happy to pay any costs associated. > > I did a quick look for my plm docs and didn't find them. I'll look more tonight. I know they are in my "collection", just have to find them. snip > Yes indeed! The rumble of the 7Mb hard drive (14" across if I remember > right) as it spun up. My favorite, of course, is the famous "Error 7, User > PC = xxxx" which covered almost every error you could make... > > > Mine has the "newer" technology hard drive. It is an 8" winchester drive with 20Mb, partitioned into four sections. I think ISIS-II was limited in drive size, so they split up the 20M into 4, :F0:, :F1:, :F2:, and :F3:. And that drive really dims the lights when it fires up! Don't remember Error 7, but Error 24 covered almost any error related to disk I/O and caused a full reboot. That's the one that plagued the floppy disk based systems when the disk was wearing out. Let me know more about your PL/M-80 compiler, if you can. Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 15 15:41:33 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:41:33 -0700 Subject: article ref to 50th birthday of video games In-Reply-To: References: <48F64FBB.F0760548@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48F6557D.3040906@brouhaha.com> Paul_Koning at dell.com wrote about Tennis For Two: > Neat. That predates the PDP-1 "spacewar" game, which I had thought of as the oldest. And it may still be the oldest video game on a digital computer. > There was no digital computer involved in Tennis For Two. It was effectively an analog computer custom designed for the game. OXO on the EDSAC may be the earliest known video game on a digital computer. Eric From g-wright at att.net Wed Oct 15 16:28:49 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:28:49 +0000 Subject: a DG /20 up for auction In-Reply-To: <48F6209C.2060506@bluewin.ch> References: <200810142201.29599.pat@computer-refuge.org><192201c92e76$d7dcf310$a5b8d146@linksys> <48F6209C.2060506@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <101520082128.6381.48F66090000DC751000018ED22230650629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel : -------------- > Bruce Ray wrote: > > Note that this Desktop Generation does not appear to have any hard disk > > drive, only dual floppies. DG/RDOS [nor AOS or AOS/WS] will not run on > > that configuration... > > > > Seller claims in his text that it boots RDOS from the floppies... > If required, what kind of harddisk would be needed ? > > a ST506 type or a DG specific ? > > Jos There made in sections and stack together. (floppy)-(CPU)-(Power supply) Its does not have a HD section. could have other sections for tape and expansion. Some where 30 " or better long. If it boots from floppy it should be fine. I believe the systems I have use ST 506 drives but the controller is built into the HD section. - Jerry g-wright at att.net From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 15 17:06:44 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:06:44 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software Message-ID: <48F66974.9080007@bitsavers.org> > Did you receive it? yes. From dmabry at mich.com Wed Oct 15 17:08:18 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:08:18 -0400 Subject: PLM80 V4 docs needed In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50810141056l79ba2375mcfe935249e6973a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50810141056l79ba2375mcfe935249e6973a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F669D2.1060108@mich.com> Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/14/2008 1:56 PM: > >> I've used PL/M-80 extensively in the past, but I don't remember V4 being >> that much different than earlier versions. All versions of PL/M-80 that >> ran under ISIS-II used the linker and locater. The only version that I >> know of that didn't was the Fortran version that ran on mainframes. It >> produced absolute object code, usually in the form of an Intel hex format. >> > > Version 4 was radically different from the 3.X and prior versions. The > earlier versions used the $X controls, version 4 used the controls that were > then used in the PLM86 compiler. Also, the DATA statement was eliminated > and other language constructs were changed. PLM80 V3 code would not compile > without mods. I remember it being released at about the same time the 8086 > and PLM86 was was released and the effort was to make PLM80 and PLM86 > somewhat similar. The PLM80 3.x docs are pretty much worthless if you are > using the 4.0 compiler. 4.0 was also one executable, a big change from the > PLM81 and PLM82 2-pass method the earlier versions used. > > Ok, Jeff, I am wondering what you might be referring to. I think you might be thinking of PL/M-86, which I'm not that familiar with. Intel, generally, would issue two manuals for PL/M-80 (and ASM-80 as well). One manual is the PL/M-80 Programming Manual and one is the ISIS-II PL/M-80 Compiler Operator's Manual. I have in front of me the "PL/M-80 Programming Manual", no. 9800268B, which is dated 1977, and the DATA construct is in it. It is used at load time to set initial values of variables. I believe that this manual applies to several versions of PL/M-80, including V4 and earlier ones. It is basically a syntax manual. I have the "ISIS-II PL/M-80 Compiler Operator's Manual", no. 9800300-04, dated 3/82. It is the manual that was issued specifically for V4.0 of the compiler. There are several "$" commands listed. All those "$" commands are also listed in the V3.0/V3.1 version of that manual (9800300C). The Programming Manual did not change from V3.0 to V4.0. The language was really the same. I programmed a lot in those days and I never had to change anything moving from V3 to V4. I think the main changes from 3 to 4 had to do with newer operating system environments. Newer versions of ISIS-II could have more than the four or six or seven disk drives by allowing networked drive assignments up through :F9:. File names could be longer, as well. I think those were some of the differences from V3.x to V4.0. But the language syntax was the same. > >>> Specifically, I am in need of: >>> >>> 98-00268B plm 80 programming manual, V4 >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Jeff Erwin >>> >>> By the way, I am running the ISIS-II emulator in a DOS box under windows, >>> itself an emulator. Windows is running under Parallels on my Mac Pro >>> > which > >>> is running OSx. Is it possible to get further from reality here?? >>> >>> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 15 17:36:00 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: print-wheel/daisy-wheel printers / was Re: Apple ][* stuff needs new homes In-Reply-To: <48F64F93.A9DD033B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <103825.70210.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48F64F93.A9DD033B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20081015153211.N21814@shell.lmi.net> > college project with an Apple II, Pascal and a Diablo print wheel > printer (actually a print terminal). I programmed it to form graphics > and mathematical symbols by taking advantage of the Diablo's > micro-spacing features (controlled with escape sequences). Does In 1980, I used a DTC300 (Diable Hytype I) to plot. I wanted to write primitives to use it with Calcomp 570 and Stromberg-Datagraphics 4020 plotting libraries. I was MUCH too lazy to finish the task. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wgungfu at uwm.edu Wed Oct 15 17:50:44 2008 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (wgungfu at uwm.edu) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:50:44 -0500 Subject: article ref to 50th birthday of video games In-Reply-To: References: <48F64FBB.F0760548@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1224111044.48f673c4a3527@panthermail.uwm.edu> Except both are computer games, not video games, despite the PR move by some companies to push them as otherwise. This was already all hashed out in the courts. Marty Quoting Paul_Koning at Dell.com: > Neat. That predates the PDP-1 "spacewar" game, which I had thought of as the > oldest. And it may still be the oldest video game on a digital computer. > > paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:17 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: article ref to 50th birthday of video games > > Old news for many here perhaps, but here's a writeup about physicist William > Higinbotham's creation of "Tennis-for-two" at Brookhaven Labs in 1958: > > http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/10/15/tech-games.html > > Mentions how the initial inspiration came from reading the manual for an > analog > computer and how it could be used for ballistic trajectory calculations. > > From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 17:51:08 2008 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe-Jacques?=) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Symbolics Genera (was "NEC SX-4B on Ebay") Message-ID: >>> It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in >>> existence. At least for even moderately technical people. >> There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people (cf >> Unix Hater's Handbook). > >Even aside from that, I'm not convinced. I think Symbolics Genera is >arguably more programmer-friendly, though that could just be because I >find Lisp a much nicer language than C. (There may be even better >OSes; that's just what I have personal experience with.) This message pertains to der Mouse's comment... Out of idle curiosity I looked up Symbolics Genera and the story of the Lisp machines... Fascinating! Any idea of how to get one's hands on such a machine? eBay is not forthcoming although they have been mentioned in some old messages on cctalk. - Alex From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 18:02:08 2008 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:02:08 +0200 Subject: Symbolics Genera (was "NEC SX-4B on Ebay") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2008/10/16 Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques > It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in >>>> existence. At least for even moderately technical people. >>>> >>> There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people (cf >>> Unix Hater's Handbook). >>> >> >> Even aside from that, I'm not convinced. I think Symbolics Genera is >> arguably more programmer-friendly, though that could just be because I >> find Lisp a much nicer language than C. (There may be even better >> OSes; that's just what I have personal experience with.) >> > > This message pertains to der Mouse's comment... Out of idle curiosity I > looked up Symbolics Genera and the story of the Lisp machines... > Fascinating! Any idea of how to get one's hands on such a machine? Check : http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/index.html Nice CADR emulator, works. St?phane (Looking for a Nova switch key). From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 18:11:23 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:11:23 -0700 Subject: Symbolics Genera (was "NEC SX-4B on Ebay") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: >>>> It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in >>>> existence. At least for even moderately technical people. >>> >>> There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people (cf >>> Unix Hater's Handbook). >> >> Even aside from that, I'm not convinced. I think Symbolics Genera is >> arguably more programmer-friendly, though that could just be because I >> find Lisp a much nicer language than C. (There may be even better >> OSes; that's just what I have personal experience with.) > > This message pertains to der Mouse's comment... Out of idle curiosity I > looked up Symbolics Genera and the story of the Lisp machines... > Fascinating! Any idea of how to get one's hands on such a machine? eBay is > not forthcoming although they have been mentioned in some old messages on > cctalk. > > - Alex I can help a bit here. Symbolics as a company still exists, although it only has 1 employee (David Schmidt, an extremely nice guy) who maintains working Symbolics machines everywhere. When he has inventory, he offers the machines for sale. See http://www.symbolics.com. They don't often show up on EBay (and can be somewhat tricky to ship). I ended up buying my Symbolics from David directly, driving down to Los Angeles to meet him and cart the machine home. Symbolics' Genera is an amazing environment. Mark From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Oct 15 18:25:22 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:25:22 -0600 Subject: Interesting X terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F67BE2.5060700@e-bbes.com> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > No 34010 in the VT1300, but the VT1200 has one (and X11.3? or maybe even > X10 something in ROM) You're right. Went to storage and checked. The vt1200 has an 34010 in it, bit nothing else (?) as an CPU. Didn't find any vt1300, probably threw them out as they were so close to vs1300. Found some forgotten vt2000 and vt2000+. VAX based again. cheers From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 15 18:27:16 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:27:16 -0600 Subject: Interesting X terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:10:17 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Peter C. Wallace" writes: > No 34010 in the VT1300, but the VT1200 has one (and X11.3? or maybe even X10 > something in ROM) Does anyone have a VT1200 they want to get rid of? ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 15 18:47:34 2008 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting X terminals In-Reply-To: <48F67BE2.5060700@e-bbes.com> References: <48F67BE2.5060700@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, e.stiebler wrote: > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:25:22 -0600 > From: e.stiebler > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: Interesting X terminals > > Peter C. Wallace wrote: >> No 34010 in the VT1300, but the VT1200 has one (and X11.3? or maybe even >> X10 something in ROM) > > You're right. Went to storage and checked. The vt1200 has an 34010 in it, bit > nothing else (?) as an CPU. Didn't find any vt1300, probably threw them out > as they were so close to vs1300. Found some forgotten vt2000 and vt2000+. VAX > based again. > > cheers > I think the only difference between a VT1300 and a VS1300-SPX is the plastic VT1300 logo and the missing SCSI disk controller... Peter Wallace From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 15 19:33:37 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: replacing the Model M Message-ID: Now that the current Sun keyboards are USB and don't feel like mush (like the Type 6 does), I'm pondering getting a Type 7. Furthermore, I'm thinking that perhaps other vendors of Linux machines should start offering Type 7 keyboards. If you think about it, such a keyboard would be perfect for getting people to use [lu]n[iu]x given the action keys along the left side. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Oct 15 19:42:03 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:42:03 -0400 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48F68DDB.2020605@hawkmountain.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> Also, anyone know if there if it is possible to slow the spindle speed >>> so that 1.44M can be done on machines that only have DD data rate ? >>> (and if so, any of the above drives capable of being slowed ?) Would >>> that even work ? >> >> Nobody has successfully used a 3.5" at 150RPM. Yet. >> Besides the "normal" 300RPM drives, there are some 600RPM (old Sony), >> and >> 360RPM (NEC and a few others) > > That's not entirely correct. Amiga 3000 and 4000 machines had a > Chinon drive mechanism that could run at 1/2 speed in order to write > hi-density formats with an FDC chip no capable of running at high data > rates. Is the interface on those drives compatable enough with non Amiga equipment such that if you had one, you could it on a 'double density' controller and do HD ? Or did Amiga 'mangle' the interface too far from standard ? Did the drive adjust speed on it's own (by detecting the HD hole) or did the Amiga have to tell it what speed to run ? -- Curt > > From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 19:40:15 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:40:15 -0400 Subject: replacing the Model M In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d3530220810151740t192c02c3r8d0889fdda062011@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 8:33 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Now that the current Sun keyboards are USB and don't feel like mush (like > the Type 6 does), I'm pondering getting a Type 7. Furthermore, I'm > thinking that perhaps other vendors of Linux machines should start > offering Type 7 keyboards. If you think about it, such a keyboard would > be perfect for getting people to use [lu]n[iu]x given the action keys > along the left side. > The most important question: is the Control key in the correct position? Assuming I could find the extra real estate necessary for it, I might even consider trying one of these in preference to the Model M I'm using right now, because it looks just like the Type 5's I quite like. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 15 19:48:18 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: replacing the Model M In-Reply-To: <7d3530220810151740t192c02c3r8d0889fdda062011@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220810151740t192c02c3r8d0889fdda062011@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, John Floren wrote: > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 8:33 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > > > Now that the current Sun keyboards are USB and don't feel like mush (like > > the Type 6 does), I'm pondering getting a Type 7. Furthermore, I'm > > thinking that perhaps other vendors of Linux machines should start > > offering Type 7 keyboards. If you think about it, such a keyboard would > > be perfect for getting people to use [lu]n[iu]x given the action keys > > along the left side. > > The most important question: is the Control key in the correct > position? Assuming I could find the extra real estate necessary for > it, I might even consider trying one of these in preference to the > Model M I'm using right now, because it looks just like the Type 5's I > quite like. That's the rub. The UNIX model has Control in the right place, but I never got used to the strange places that Backspace, Esc, \, and ` are. The PC model fixes this, but then Control appears to be in the wrong place. I'd like to get the PC model with a keycap kit to put a Control key where it belongs. IMHO, there is no need for a Caps Lock key. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 15 19:58:28 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop Message-ID: It seems that Sun has discontinued (hopefully temporarily) desktop Sparc machines. Can someone tell me how the prices of these machines compared with their line of x86 machines? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 15 20:21:36 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:21:36 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s Message-ID: What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? SAGE is the first one I can think of; I don't recall the predecessors at MIT having any sort of graphical display. Then, after the first machine, besides SAGE, what systems were utilizing graphic displays in the 1950s? Did the IBM commercial derivative of SAGE use any graphic displays? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From warren at databasics.us Wed Oct 15 20:35:43 2008 From: warren at databasics.us (warren at databasics.us) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:35:43 -1000 Subject: OT: Administrative Issue Message-ID: <20081016013544.17372.qmail@server318.com> Hello, Sorry to bother the list, but I've tried four or five times, and written to what appears to be Jay's address to no avail. I'm trying to swich my current list address, warren at ... to lists at ... I need some assistance, please. Warren From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 20:50:07 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:50:07 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 1963 isnt the 50's but close. Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad Theres some youtube out there too of this system in operation. Randy > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:21:36 -0600 > Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s > > What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? > > SAGE is the first one I can think of; I don't recall the predecessors at > MIT having any sort of graphical display. > > Then, after the first machine, besides SAGE, what systems were utilizing > graphic displays in the 1950s? Did the IBM commercial derivative of SAGE > use any graphic displays? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 15 21:02:35 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:02:35 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:50:07 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Randy Dawson writes: > > 1963 isnt the 50's but close. > > Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad Yes, I'm well familiar with Sutherland and sketchpad. I'm trying to drill back before Sketchpad. For most people, Sketchpad is where it starts, but after reading the book on the SAGE system, I realize that SAGE predates Sketchpad for a couple key innovations. I am wondering if they originate with SAGE or had already been known techniques used in other computers before that. So far, I can't find anything earlier than SAGE. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 15 21:16:24 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:16:24 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F6A3F8.4020302@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? Possibly the Manchester Mark I ("baby"). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 15 21:20:11 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:20:11 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F6A4DB.4060204@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > So far, I can't find anything earlier than SAGE. No offence, but you're not looking very hard. Any credible reference on SAGE will point you to the earlier MIT Whirlwind. Eric From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 15 21:20:27 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:20:27 -0400 Subject: OT: Administrative Issue In-Reply-To: <20081016013544.17372.qmail@server318.com> Message-ID: <200810160220.m9G2KUVB015484@keith.ezwind.net> I found it was easier to subscribe new using the new address, and then remove my old address after the new one was working. Bob Bradlee On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:35:43 -1000, warren at databasics.us wrote: >Hello, > Sorry to bother the list, but I've tried four or five times, and written >to what appears to be Jay's address to no avail. > I'm trying to swich my current list address, warren at ... to lists at ... >I need some assistance, please. > Warren From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 15 22:26:07 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:26:07 -0800 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s References: Message-ID: <48F6B450.2277EBCB@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > > I'm trying to drill back before Sketchpad. For most people, Sketchpad is > where it starts, but after reading the book on the SAGE system, I realize > that SAGE predates Sketchpad for a couple key innovations. I am > wondering if they originate with SAGE or had already been known > techniques used in other computers before that. So far, I can't find > anything earlier than SAGE. I'm not sure if you're distinguishing here between SAGE and Whirlwind, but I'm quite sure Whirlwind was using CRTs for graphical displays. I recall them being mentioned in the Whirlwind book, although it's been years since I've read it. Presumably it had to, as it was used to as a proof-of-concept (and marketing hook) for SAGE. Whirlwind did run 'real-world' tests of the bomber intercept system. I suspect it all started with the machines which used storage tube memory (Whirlwind being one of them). They generally had viewable CRTs driven by the same scan as the memory tubes and set up to help view and diagnose the memory state. I believe the Manchester Baby (1948) had this. I'm sure it wasn't long before someone decided to use these as a programmed display. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 15 21:31:34 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? > > SAGE is the first one I can think of; I don't recall the predecessors at > MIT having any sort of graphical display. The Whirlwind computer at MIT was used to develop the concepts used in SAGE. There's a picture of a display scope on the Whirlwind from 1950 on this page: http://www.mitre.org/about/photo_archives/whirlwind_photo.html And another here from 1953: http://www.mitre.org/about/photo_archives/sage_photo.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From feedle at feedle.net Wed Oct 15 21:48:09 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:48:09 -0700 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FF97EC1-FADE-46D2-A386-DEAA9ABA4EB4@feedle.net> On Oct 15, 2008, at 5:58 PM, David Griffith wrote: > It seems that Sun has discontinued (hopefully temporarily) desktop > Sparc > machines. Can someone tell me how the prices of these machines > compared > with their line of x86 machines? I was left with the impression that the Sparc machines were underperforming compared to what is possible using Xeon (or even Phenom) processors and standard PC chipsets, which is part of the reason why Sun is sunsetting the machines.. especially in the workstation-class machines. I'm sure the fact that Apple is hitting that segment hard with a dual-Quad Xeon (3.2GHz) chip based machine for under $5k doesn't help. Add to the fact that $5k workstation will do Windows as well as UNIX-flavor-of-the-decade at bare metal speed, and I'm sure Sun has seen their workstation business mosey right into Cupertino's sunset. Have you seen what a $200 AMD Phenom motherboard/CPU combo is today at your local computer chop shop? A quad-core 2.5 GHz processor, for crying out loud. That'll fluff up your World Community Grid statistics a wee. Sun is realizing what Apple figured out about 5 years ago: love it or hate it, x86 is here to stay and the war between AMD and Intel is only a "good thing" for you as a computer maker interested in the highest performance. You've never seen TOPS-20 move quite as fast as it does running in a [sim|em]ulator on a 64-bit Athlon machine running Linux. It isn't even capable of making the machine break a sweat on a quad-core Phenom. Haven't checked lately, but last I saw there was only one SPARC-based machine still on the TOP500, nowhere near the top. Sun's entry on the Top 10 is running Opteron, for crying out loud. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 15 22:12:06 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <6FF97EC1-FADE-46D2-A386-DEAA9ABA4EB4@feedle.net> References: <6FF97EC1-FADE-46D2-A386-DEAA9ABA4EB4@feedle.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, C. Sullivan wrote: > On Oct 15, 2008, at 5:58 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > > It seems that Sun has discontinued (hopefully temporarily) desktop > > Sparc machines. Can someone tell me how the prices of these machines > > compared with their line of x86 machines? > > I was left with the impression that the Sparc machines were > underperforming compared to what is possible using Xeon (or even > Phenom) processors and standard PC chipsets, which is part of the > reason why Sun is sunsetting the machines.. especially in the > workstation-class machines. I'm sure the fact that Apple is hitting > that segment hard with a dual-Quad Xeon (3.2GHz) chip based machine > for under $5k doesn't help. Add to the fact that $5k workstation will > do Windows as well as UNIX-flavor-of-the-decade at bare metal speed, > and I'm sure Sun has seen their workstation business mosey right into > Cupertino's sunset. > > Have you seen what a $200 AMD Phenom motherboard/CPU combo is today at > your local computer chop shop? A quad-core 2.5 GHz processor, for > crying out loud. That'll fluff up your World Community Grid > statistics a wee. PC Club closed shop here. CompUSA has been gone for a year. PCXGEN has mutated into a cybercafe with no meaningful hardware sales to speak of. That seems to leave Best Buy way on the other end of town past the molasses-like crawl that's known as Rosedale Highway. > Sun is realizing what Apple figured out about 5 years ago: love it or > hate it, x86 is here to stay and the war between AMD and Intel is only > a "good thing" for you as a computer maker interested in the highest > performance. At least I'd like to see them do something with the BIOS replacements like Coreboot. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 15 23:06:21 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:06:21 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F65B4D.740.30F95A73@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2008 at 19:21, Richard wrote: > What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? A 'scope or x-y chart recorder was a standard output device for just about any *analogue* computer, Richard. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 00:01:26 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:01:26 -0400 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Then, after the first machine, besides SAGE, what systems were utilizing > graphic displays in the 1950s? Did the IBM commercial derivative of SAGE > use any graphic displays? I am pretty sure there was a graphics device available for the IBM 700 series machines. It was probably not the first. Nothing is the first, anyway. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 00:06:33 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:06:33 -0400 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F65B4D.740.30F95A73@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48F65B4D.740.30F95A73@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > A 'scope or x-y chart recorder was a standard output device for just > about any *analogue* computer, Richard. There were also lots of hybrid analog/digital boxes the US Navy came up with in the 1950s for adding crude graphics to radar information. I have one, a Mk 26 Target Designation System, used for real time manipulation of four directors aiming at four targets. I need the tech manual, however. It is a very complex analog/digital/mechanical monster. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 00:45:20 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:45:20 -0500 Subject: L&S 7105 Color Terminal Message-ID: <51ea77730810152245h5f87f1cax2e24ebed83ab1e8d@mail.gmail.com> I took delivery tonight of this most interesting apparatus: http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/LearSiegler7105Terminal# I can find zero info out on the Internets about it. Has anyone seen/used/captured one? It seems to be ANSI and VT52 compatible, as well as a custom graphics language. I've yet to hook it up to a host, but that's coming soon. The setup screens are quite dazzling as they are, but I'd like to see what else it can do. I do know that my setup parameters are "questionable." I'd like to get the manual scanned for preservation as well, but I'd rather not destroy it to do so. So I guess it's one page at a time on the ol' flatbed... j From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 16 01:32:19 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:32:19 +0200 Subject: OT: Administrative Issue In-Reply-To: <200810160220.m9G2KUVB015484@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20081016013544.17372.qmail@server318.com> <200810160220.m9G2KUVB015484@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Bob Bradlee Verzonden: donderdag 16 oktober 2008 4:20 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: OT: Administrative Issue I found it was easier to subscribe new using the new address, and then remove my old address after the new one was working. Bob Bradlee On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:35:43 -1000, warren at databasics.us wrote: >Hello, > Sorry to bother the list, but I've tried four or five times, and >written to what appears to be Jay's address to no avail. > I'm trying to swich my current list address, warren at ... to lists at ... >I need some assistance, please. > Warren Not so long ago (3 month) I changed the adres through the web interface no problem at all. -Rik From dmabry at mich.com Wed Oct 15 03:54:51 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 04:54:51 -0400 Subject: PLM80 V4 docs needed In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50810141056l79ba2375mcfe935249e6973a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50810141056l79ba2375mcfe935249e6973a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F5AFDB.4040102@mich.com> Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/14/2008 1:56 PM: > The Starplex was the NS answer to the MDS, but was much more 'late 70's' in > its design. The prom programmer was built into the system, as was the > screen and floppy drives. All very modular. I learned asm80 writing the > editor and assembler for that beast. > > snip > Version 4 was radically different from the 3.X and prior versions. The > earlier versions used the $X controls, version 4 used the controls that were > then used in the PLM86 compiler. Also, the DATA statement was eliminated > and other language constructs were changed. PLM80 V3 code would not compile > without mods. I remember it being released at about the same time the 8086 > and PLM86 was was released and the effort was to make PLM80 and PLM86 > somewhat similar. The PLM80 3.x docs are pretty much worthless if you are > using the 4.0 compiler. 4.0 was also one executable, a big change from the > PLM81 and PLM82 2-pass method the earlier versions used. > > I'm confused. I have V4 of the "resident" compiler, that is, the one that runs on an MDS Series II or MDS-800. Those machines had either an 8080 or an 8085 cpu. I'm putting in a very small screen shot below of the files. Hopefully this is ok for the list. It shows that there are 6 overlay files to this compiler. It is not one monolithic executable. Are you sure you aren't talking about the PL/M-86 compiler that runs on an MDS Series III? That one is 8086-based. If, indeed, you have an 8080-based compiler for PL/M-80 that is one large file, I would like to see that. It is new to me. snip > > I'd love to get a copy of whatever you have relative to 4.0. Emailing the > PDF is probably easiest, I am more than happy to pay any costs associated. > > I did a quick look for my plm docs and didn't find them. I'll look more tonight. I know they are in my "collection", just have to find them. snip > Yes indeed! The rumble of the 7Mb hard drive (14" across if I remember > right) as it spun up. My favorite, of course, is the famous "Error 7, User > PC = xxxx" which covered almost every error you could make... > > > Mine has the "newer" technology hard drive. It is an 8" winchester drive with 20Mb, partitioned into four sections. I think ISIS-II was limited in drive size, so they split up the 20M into 4, :F0:, :F1:, :F2:, and :F3:. And that drive really dims the lights when it fires up! Don't remember Error 7, but Error 24 covered almost any error related to disk I/O and caused a full reboot. That's the one that plagued the floppy disk based systems when the disk was wearing out. Let me know more about your PL/M-80 compiler, if you can. Dave From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Wed Oct 15 12:04:28 2008 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:04:28 -0600 Subject: a DG /20 , software needed ??? References: <48f5000f.44.ef8.14646@jdfogg.com> <101420082239.22324.48F51FB0000E27140000573422230650629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <003901c92ee8$1804d4f0$eacfd146@linksys> Note that the Desktop Generation shown does not have a hard disk drive, only dual 700KB floppies. DG/RDOS, AOS, AOS/WS all need a hard drive to run. Bruce bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 04:39 PM Subject: Re: a DG /20 , software needed ??? > > > -------------- Original message from "Mark Davidson" > : -------------- > > >> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 1:24 PM, james wrote: >> >> A local auction site ( Switzerland ) lists a Data General >> >> DG/20 Micreclipse system. I believe it is rare enough to >> >> mention here . >> Mark > > Anyone have the OS for one of theses. It's been on my needed > list for years. > > - Jerry > > g-wright at att.net > From jefferwin at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 12:32:43 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:32:43 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <200810151703.m9FH2enm053647@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810151703.m9FH2enm053647@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7c7c96a50810151032w51c6cbc8gd1e3bae17f700273@mail.gmail.com> > > >Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/14/2008 1:56 PM: > >> The Starplex was the NS answer to the MDS, but was much more 'late 70's' > in > >> its design. The prom programmer was built into the system, as was the > >> screen and floppy drives. All very modular. I learned asm80 writing > the > >> editor and assembler for that beast. > ?>> > >> > >snip > >> Version 4 was radically different from the 3.X and prior versions. The > >> earlier versions used the $X controls, version 4 used the controls that > were > >> then used in the PLM86 compiler. Also, the DATA statement was > eliminated > >> and other language constructs were changed. PLM80 V3 code would not > compile > >> without mods. I remember it being released at about the same time the > 8086 > >> and PLM86 was was released and the effort was to make PLM80 and PLM86 > >> somewhat similar. The PLM80 3.x docs are pretty much worthless if you > are > >> using the 4.0 compiler. 4.0 was also one executable, a big change from > the > >> PLM81 and PLM82 2-pass method the earlier versions used. > >> > >> > > > >I'm confused. I have V4 of the "resident" compiler, that is, the one > >that runs on an MDS Series II or MDS-800. Those machines had either an > >8080 or an 8085 cpu. I'm putting in a very small screen shot below of > >the files. Hopefully this is ok for the list. It shows that there are > >6 overlay files to this compiler. It is not one monolithic executable. > >Are you sure you aren't talking about the PL/M-86 compiler that runs on > >an MDS Series III? That one is 8086-based. > > > >If, indeed, you have an 8080-based compiler for PL/M-80 that is one > >large file, I would like to see that. It is new to me. I think we are both right, although I am guilt of not being clearer. The earlier versions required two executables, plm81 and plm82. Version 4 went to a single executable with 7 overlays, plm80.ov0 to plm80.ov6. I think this is what you are seeing. It isn't really 'one big executable' so I misspoke. If you see the overlays, you have version 4. The source for CPM (2.2 I think) seems to be in the PLM80 v4 format, I am picking up a lot of the specifics from there, but if you can find the actual docs...! Thanks for looking. By the way, your boss was right to be wary of National Semi in those days, the management of the group creating Starplex was pretty squirrely. I stayed a year out of school before I was hired by INtel and moved to Oregon. Intel was a $300M company when I went there! Jeff > > > > >snip > >> > >> I'd love to get a copy of whatever you have relative to 4.0. Emailing > the > >> PDF is probably easiest, I am more than happy to pay any costs > associated. > >> > >> > > >I did a quick look for my plm docs and didn't find them. I'll look more > >tonight. I know they are in my "collection", just have to find them. > > snip > > > >Let me know more about your PL/M-80 compiler, if you can. > > > >Dave > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 15 18:39:08 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Symbolics Genera (was "NEC SX-4B on Ebay") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810152341.TAA16389@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Out of idle curiosity I looked up Symbolics Genera and the story of > the Lisp machines... Fascinating! Any idea of how to get one's hands > on such a machine? No, short of just going on the hunt, as it were, and staying that way for a (probably longish) time until you succeed. I don't have any. In some respects I wish I did; in others I'm glad I don't. (Machine or no, I do wish I had the keyboard; one of the LispM keyboards I've used is my gold standard for keyboards, though it's been long enough that it could be rosy-coloured memory to some extent.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 15 18:42:08 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810152350.TAA16424@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I rememebr having a long arguement with a physics teacher who > insisted a bridge circuit couldn't be used to measure capacitance, > but only to compare capacitors. I am strill trying to find a > definition of 'measurement' which does not involve comparison to a > standard. Yes, but that standard does not have to be another of the type of thing being measured. In the case of capacitance, I think it's fair to draw a distinctino between measuring capacitance in the form of "this capacitance is 12.7 times that one" and measuring capacitance in the form of, say, "it takes 137ms for a 10mA current to charge this capacitance up to 50mV" or "with a 50kohm resistor this capacitance exhibits an R-C time constant of 27ms". You will not, however, catch me defending said teacher's insistance that "measure" is an inappropriate verb for one of those. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From curtis at hawkmountain.net Wed Oct 15 23:20:04 2008 From: curtis at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:20:04 -0400 Subject: DEC LN03 laser printer 'goodies' Message-ID: <48F6C0F4.4010506@hawkmountain.net> I have maintenance kits, toner kits, font cartridges, RAM font cartridges (LN03X), and a LN03 Programmer Reference Manual. Any interest ? Make an offer on any item (toner kit, maintenance kit, font cartridges, the manual, etc).... -- Curt From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 16 00:48:45 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <6FF97EC1-FADE-46D2-A386-DEAA9ABA4EB4@feedle.net> References: <6FF97EC1-FADE-46D2-A386-DEAA9ABA4EB4@feedle.net> Message-ID: <200810160550.BAA23036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I was left with the impression that the Sparc machines were > underperforming If sheer CPU crunch is your only criterion (not not NOT, dammit, "criteria"![%]), sure. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B [%] Eh. Sorry. I've seen just a few too many people today use "criteria" as if it were the singular. From dmabry at mich.com Thu Oct 16 03:40:22 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:40:22 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50810151032w51c6cbc8gd1e3bae17f700273@mail.gmail.com> References: <200810151703.m9FH2enm053647@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7c7c96a50810151032w51c6cbc8gd1e3bae17f700273@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F6FDF6.9010709@mich.com> Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/15/2008 1:32 PM: >>> >>> I'm confused. I have V4 of the "resident" compiler, that is, the one >>> that runs on an MDS Series II or MDS-800. Those machines had either an >>> 8080 or an 8085 cpu. I'm putting in a very small screen shot below of >>> the files. Hopefully this is ok for the list. It shows that there are >>> 6 overlay files to this compiler. It is not one monolithic executable. >>> Are you sure you aren't talking about the PL/M-86 compiler that runs on >>> an MDS Series III? That one is 8086-based. >>> >>> If, indeed, you have an 8080-based compiler for PL/M-80 that is one >>> large file, I would like to see that. It is new to me. >>> > > > I think we are both right, although I am guilt of not being clearer. The > earlier versions required two executables, plm81 and plm82. Version 4 went > to a single executable with 7 overlays, plm80.ov0 to plm80.ov6. I think > this is what you are seeing. It isn't really 'one big executable' so I > misspoke. If you see the overlays, you have version 4. > > The source for CPM (2.2 I think) seems to be in the PLM80 v4 format, I am > picking up a lot of the specifics from there, but if you can find the actual > docs...! > > Thanks for looking. > > By the way, your boss was right to be wary of National Semi in those days, > the management of the group creating Starplex was pretty squirrely. I > stayed a year out of school before I was hired by INtel and moved to > Oregon. Intel was a $300M company when I went there! > > Jeff > > Well, I hope this discussion isn't getting boring for the rest of the list, but I still think you are referring to a different compiler. When you mentioned PLM81 and PLM82 that made me think of the cross-compiler that was written in Fortran and ran on mainframes. We had that when I started writing in PL/M-80, and it definitely was different, in syntax, than the "resident" compiler than Intel released for the MDS. I have no way to prove my hunch because all I have now is the resident MDS-based software. I do have the syntax manual for that compiler somewhere, but that would take a major excavation, I'm afraid, to locate. From memory, the cross compiler did NOT have the DATA construct because it made code that went into ROM. DATA was a way to initialize variables at load time of the executable. It assumed you were disk-based and loaded the executable from a drive just prior to execution. If you were running a program from ROM there is no "load time" per se. If you wanted to initialize variables you had to do it programmatically. I just looked in my V3.0/V3.1 compiler operator's manual (the C suffix version of 9800300) and it lists the same file list as V4.0 with the exception of overlay files from OV0 through OV4 only. Two fewer overlay files. And from memory, the version 2 was similar. I probably have all these versions of executables on 8" floppies. I'd have to dig through my 8" floppies to find the actual compiler, but I'm sure I have it. I will see what I can do to scan the syntax manual if you want. That is the manual number 9800268B. But it is NOT version-specific. Only the compiler operator's manual is version-specific. Dave From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 16 03:41:25 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 3.5" floppy drive question(s) In-Reply-To: <48F68DDB.2020605@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F0C77F.7060103@hawkmountain.net> <20081011103606.U11317@shell.lmi.net> <48F68DDB.2020605@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> That's not entirely correct. Amiga 3000 and 4000 machines had a Chinon >> drive mechanism that could run at 1/2 speed in order to write hi-density >> formats with an FDC chip no capable of running at high data rates. That's what I said. > Is the interface on those drives compatable enough with non > Amiga equipment such that if you had one, you could it on a > 'double density' controller and do HD ? Or did Amiga 'mangle' Yes, it it a standard Shugart bus drive, jumpered with /RDY on pin 34 and /DC on pin 2. > the interface too far from standard ? Did the drive adjust speed > on it's own (by detecting the HD hole) or did the Amiga have to > tell it what speed to run ? The drive does it on its own. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 16 03:54:58 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:54:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? I do consider plotter graphics as a graphical display of some sort. > Then, after the first machine, besides SAGE, what systems were utilizing > graphic displays in the 1950s? Did the IBM commercial derivative of SAGE We have an LGP-30 with Calcomp 565. But I think that analog computers have already created computer graphics on X-Y recorders long before the LGP-30 (thinking of Lissajous). And of course there have been mechanical apparatus before analog computers. Christian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 16 04:36:32 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:36:32 +0100 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <200810160550.BAA23036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <6FF97EC1-FADE-46D2-A386-DEAA9ABA4EB4@feedle.net> <200810160550.BAA23036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48F70B20.5080206@gjcp.net> der Mouse wrote: >> I was left with the impression that the Sparc machines were >> underperforming > > If sheer CPU crunch is your only criterion (not not NOT, dammit, > "criteria"![%]), sure. > Sorry, Jay, but I'm going to mention cars ;-) I always thought that x86 arch seemed more "revvy" and SPARC seemed more "torquey" if you can think of it in those terms. Something like x86 seems better for doing a couple of things very very quickly, where with a SPARC it wasn't that fast to begin with, but you can pile on the load without it slowing down. A bit like the way my mate's BMW with its 16-valve sporty engine will go like a poisoned ape but my Citroen with its 1970s tractor engine will sail past him on the first long hill... Gordon From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 06:21:59 2008 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:21:59 +0100 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/16 David Griffith : > > It seems that Sun has discontinued (hopefully temporarily) desktop Sparc > machines. Can someone tell me how the prices of these machines compared > with their line of x86 machines? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > I have just bought a dual 900mhz Sparc machine with 2gb memory. for ?130. I haven't got it yet. But I am quite sure it will be fast enough to use as a desktop machine. Also should be fairly quick at compiling bits and pieces. I haven't had a decent Sun machine for a few years so am looking forward to this one. I did have an Ultra 2 with dual 400 procs and it was my main machine for a good few years. I was looking at getting something similar, there was loads of old Sun machines on ebay a few years ago. Now there are only new expensive ones. Although I was disappointed they stopped making desktops this might mean the 2nd hand prices of the latest ones will drop as people go over to Intel. Although they may go up if they are rare. Dan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 16 07:54:24 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 05:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <48F70B20.5080206@gjcp.net> from Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ at "Oct 16, 8 10:36:32 am" Message-ID: <200810161254.m9GCsOvW014624@floodgap.com> > > If sheer CPU crunch is your only criterion (not not NOT, dammit, > > "criteria"![%]), sure. > Sorry, Jay, but I'm going to mention cars ;-) > I always thought that x86 arch seemed more "revvy" and SPARC seemed more > "torquey" if you can think of it in those terms. Something like x86 > seems better for doing a couple of things very very quickly, where with > a SPARC it wasn't that fast to begin with, but you can pile on the load > without it slowing down. I like the first sentence for the analogy -- not so fond of the second. Particularly for the deeply pipelined later x86en, individual pipeline steps are fast (thus "revvy" I think is apt) but it suffers like any pipeline from bubbles due to bad branches and so on, and being deeply pipelined suffers more. SPARC, and particularly POWER/PowerPC, can't rev clock speed like that because each step of the pipeline is doing more, but their shorter lines are more resistant to misprediction. Chips like the G4 also can be made very power-efficient because you're not grinding clock. It's more of an efficiency question than a load tolerance question, IMHO. As an example of how to do this wrong, the G5, which tried to ramp up clock by adopting Intel's approach, became a power hungry monster (as I listen to my Power Mac G5 quad whine) and I'm sure directly contributed to Apple going Intel since the G5 could never have made it into a laptop as originally designed. The nadir of Intel's fascination with super duper pipelines was Netburst and putting all their eggs into ramping up clock speed and building better speculative logic. This did pay off in marketing, but given their switch to Core, Intel appears to have realized that NetBurst was not sustainable. Indeed, the pipeline is half the size of Prescott's. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Heisenberg may have been here. --------------------------------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 08:02:19 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:02:19 -0500 Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F73B5B.8020406@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > There are 5 PCBs inside the case. One just holds 2 LEDs. Another is the > SMPSU. Which leaves 3 boards for digital stuff. One has the 80188 and > peripheral interface chips -- I forget the details, but theu're all > pretty standard. Another has The TMS34010, RAMDAC and lots of RAM on it. > And the last is a daughterboard for that one and contains 10 or so EPROMs > containing the XSerer and fonts. Interesting. I've seen quite a few network interfaces controlled via 80188 CPUs in larger systems around the mid-late 80s - I wonder if they borrowed one such design and added the ability for it to drive keyboard/mouse interfaces, or whether they designed the network side from scratch... I'm not familiar with the TMS34010 though. The only xterm I have is an NCD 88k one; there's just one main board (CPU, RAM, display) and a daughterboard (network and ROMs). Same deal as yours, though - takes a standard ps/2 keyboard and RS232 mouse. Video was via a DB26 though, for some obscure reason (IIRC most of the pins were n/c - maybe they had some future functionality in mind that never happened) cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 16 09:10:47 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:10:47 -0700 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:21 PM +0100 10/16/08, Dan Williams wrote: >I have just bought a dual 900mhz Sparc machine with 2gb memory. for >?130. I haven't got it yet. But I am quite sure it will be fast enough >to use as a desktop machine. Also should be fairly quick at compiling >bits and pieces. Is it a SunBlade 1000 by any chance? If so you'd better have a good A/C in the room. :-( I've only been able to run mine in the dead of winter when I could open the door and let cool air in. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 09:24:04 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:24:04 -0400 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> > On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: >> >> What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most >> likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? --- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 09:55:01 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:55:01 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F755C5.5050501@gmail.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: >>> What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most >>> likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? > > Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? *applause* Ahh, the minefield of "what was the first..." questions :-) In the electronic arena, the Manchester machine (Mk.1) had a visual display of what was going on inside the Williams Tubes, and I believe that system pre-dated Whirlwind by a few years (essentially completed in 1948 vs. 1951?) - however what I'm not sure of is whether the visual display was there from day one, or if it was added later as a debugging aid... Furthermore, what's a "graphical display", anyway? Most people seem to make the distinction between graphics and text-mode terminals - so maybe early CRTs etc. that only display machine state or rudimentary characters don't count? Perhaps the first graphical display is one that can render some form of graphics primitives (lines, arcs etc.) direct from software using a bitmapped or vector display? cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Oct 16 10:10:47 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:10:47 +0000 Subject: Mixed results with PET video circuit Message-ID: <20081016151047.GA27989@usap.gov> Hi, all, >From the amount of traffic my questions spawned, I thought it only fair to post a follow-up. I built the 74LS02 circuit nearly as described, but with no cap between the PET and the horizontal sync inverter. I wasn't surprised when I got nothing on an LCD with composite input, so I dragged out the 9" mono security monitor and was instantly rewarded with a PET BASIC prompt - the only problem was that I couldn't lock in the horizontal. I could get close, so that it was mostly stable, but over time, it would roll faster and faster, no matter how I tweaked the monitor. I tried the "PET Revealed" trick of a pot on the hsync pull-down, but that didn't seem to make much of an impact, and neither did removing it entirely. So I was able to see the PET work, but from a use standpoint, don't quite have the right tweaks on the basic circuit. I'm out of time for the season, or I'd keep fiddling with it (we could get new folks in here in as little as a week, if all the early-season plans go well, and weather permitting, as always). Thanks for all the feedback. I understand things a lot better now, and I'm happy to say that the first time I powered it up, I got recognizable video, even if it did list to port a bit. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Oct-2008 at 15:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -59.3 F (-50.7 C) Windchill -86.4 F (-65.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.0 kts Grid 336 Barometer 672.2 mb (10924 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Oct 16 10:13:53 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:13:53 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F755C5.5050501@gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> <48F755C5.5050501@gmail.com> Message-ID: >Furthermore, what's a "graphical display", anyway? Most people seem to make >the distinction between graphics and text-mode terminals - so maybe early CRTs >etc. that only display machine state or rudimentary characters don't count? >Perhaps the first graphical display is one that can render some form of >graphics primitives (lines, arcs etc.) direct from software using a bitmapped >or vector display? That's a reasonable principle -- something that can generate fairly arbitrary graphics that change in real time. PDP-1 Spacewar certainly fits that definition. So does the CDC 6600 console (3 years later). Neither of those do hardware vectors, but drawing lines given dot-plotting isn't a big deal so long as the graphics complexity is modest. (In the 6600, the job was made easier by the fact that the hardware did support character plotting.) paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 16 10:17:43 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:17:43 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: >> >>> What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most >>> likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? >>> > > Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? > > If it could count, it would be a computer. :) > --- > Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem > > From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 10:22:25 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:22:25 -0400 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> <48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? > > If it could count, it would be a computer. :) You might be trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but there is a well-woven argument here. However, I think we may be loosing the thread. I better stop before Jay tell us to put a sock in it. --- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 16 10:55:12 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:55:12 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> <48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: > >> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> >>> Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? >>> >> If it could count, it would be a computer. :) >> > > You might be trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but there is a > well-woven argument here. However, I think we may be loosing the > thread. > > I better stop before Jay tell us to put a sock in it. > > Yes, that could be looming ahead. > --- > Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 16 11:10:51 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:10:51 -0400 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 16, 2008, at 7:21 AM, Dan Williams wrote: > I have just bought a dual 900mhz Sparc machine with 2gb memory. for > ?130. I haven't got it yet. But I am quite sure it will be fast enough > to use as a desktop machine. Also should be fairly quick at compiling > bits and pieces. > I haven't had a decent Sun machine for a few years so am looking > forward to this one. > I did have an Ultra 2 with dual 400 procs and it was my main machine > for a good few years. Ohhhh my. :) You are going to LOVE your new machine, then. I've always loved the Ultra2; it's one of Sun's finest workstations. The UltraSPARC-II processor is a good design...but the UltraSPARC-III kicks the snot out of it. It's a whole different world. For about a year until a recent upgrade, I ran the following on a dual 900MHz UltraSPARC-III+ machine with 4GB of RAM and native FC disks, a Sun Fire 280r: - Eleven virtual machines (using Solaris "Zones" virtualization system) - An email server for about 100 people, comprising: = Incoming SMTP, 50K-70K messages per day, ~91% spam = Spam filtering (heavy REGEXP processing) = Virus scanning, for those few still running Windows = POP3, IMAP, and IMAPS spool access - Two web servers handling about thirty virtual hosts, most PHP-based - Network monitoring system - Real-time NEXRAD weather imagery processing system - A biggish (20 queries/sec) database server - Three Sun Ray thin client terminals (often running Firefox, Thunderbird, etc) - All of my software development (editing, compiling, testing) ...All on a SINGLE 4U rackmount machine with two 900MHz UltraSPARC- III+ processors (8MB L2 cache each) and 4GB of RAM. It was a bit swappy with only 4GB (450 processes in the process table, "ps" output scrolls and scrolls), but very responsive. I recently upgraded it to a dual 1.2GHz UltraSPARC-III+ machine with 8GB of RAM. Show THAT to an x86 fanboy and watch the pimply jaw drop. ;) > I was looking at getting something similar, there was loads of old Sun > machines on ebay a few years ago. Now there are only new expensive > ones. > Although I was disappointed they stopped making desktops this might > mean the 2nd hand prices of the latest ones will drop as people go > over to Intel. Although they may go up if they are rare. Sun discontinued the SPARC-based desktop machines for three main reasons. First, it's very hard to make them cost-effective; they'd have to trim their margins down to the near-nothing that the PC world is accustomed to...which means they'd have to start making cheap garbage. They tried that with the unbelievably crappy non-Sun-like Ultra5 and Ultra10 machines; everyone with more than a smidgen of real computer experience poo-pooed them loudly, and Sun listened. (but apparently the Blade 100 [not 1000] was already in the pipeline, too late to axe) Second, the later UltraSPARC processors are *big*...it's not easy to make a physically small machine with those. A proc/mem module for a V480 is the size of a phone book and is definitely a two-hander. These are not "desktop" processors. Third, Sun is having great success with the Sun Ray product line. These very effectively replace standalone desktops, and are being deployed by the thousands. I use them myself here; they are fantastic. There's not much point to try to make a low-cost standalone desktop machine when they're making money (and happy customers) with the Sun Ray line. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 16 11:13:43 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:13:43 -0400 Subject: DEC LN03 laser printer 'goodies' In-Reply-To: <48F6C0F4.4010506@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F6C0F4.4010506@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Oct 16, 2008, at 12:20 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I have maintenance kits, toner kits, font cartridges, RAM font > cartridges (LN03X), and a LN03 Programmer Reference Manual. > > Any interest ? > > Make an offer on any item (toner kit, maintenance kit, font > cartridges, the manual, etc).... ...and I've got an OPC belt, pretty sure it's for an LN03, unknown condition but I think it's new, free for the cost of shipping (continental US). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 16 11:19:00 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:19:00 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> <48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com>, <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca [bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:55 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: computer graphics in the 1950s Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: > >> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> >>> Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? >>> >> If it could count, it would be a computer. :) >> > > You might be trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but there is a > well-woven argument here. However, I think we may be loosing the > thread. > > I better stop before Jay tell us to put a sock in it. > > Yes, that could be looming ahead. > --- [snip] From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Thu Oct 16 12:11:06 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (michaelgreen42 at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:11:06 +0000 Subject: FS: Alto's 580 near Seattle WA Message-ID: <101620081711.17669.48F775AA000B3893000045052205884484CDCB020A0A9D09040A0E080C0703@comcast.net> After my last batch of Altos machines I managed to acquire a nice Alto's 580. I believe it is the HD model because there is only a single floppy in it. It came with some software most of it originals (MPM, Diags, etc) and about 10 or so original manuals. It powers up fine but I don't have the cable to hook it up to my terminal. The terminal I have is an ADDs model with keyboard/CRT that I am also considering selling (have the manual for this too). From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 16 12:44:01 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:44:01 -0500 Subject: replacing the Model M In-Reply-To: References: <7d3530220810151740t192c02c3r8d0889fdda062011@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F77D61.80702@mdrconsult.com> David Griffith wrote: > That's the rub. The UNIX model has Control in the right place, but I > never got used to the strange places that Backspace, Esc, \, and ` are. > The PC model fixes this, but then Control appears to be in the wrong > place. I'd like to get the PC model with a keycap kit to put a Control > key where it belongs. IMHO, there is no need for a Caps Lock key. I'm typing on a Matias "OS X Keyboard" that has Ctrl in the UNIX position (left of a) and PC position, below shift on both sides. Capslock is left of right-Ctrl. It also has 15 function keys (instead of PrtScrn, Scroll and Num locks), 3 volume control keys, and is programmable, at least in OS X. Size and spacing is almost exactly the same as my late-model SGI granite keyboard. Let's see - backslash is above Return and below backspace, and backspace is the proper size (wide). I just got it a few days ago, and haven't decided whether I like the action; it's very bouncy. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 12:46:15 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:46:15 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:20:11 -0700. <48F6A4DB.4060204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <48F6A4DB.4060204 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote: > > So far, I can't find anything earlier than SAGE. > > No offence, but you're not looking very hard. Any credible reference on > SAGE will point you to the earlier MIT Whirlwind. While the SAGE book I read (From Whirlwind to MITRE: The R&D Story of The SAGE Air Defense Computer) talked quite a bit about Whirlwind, the discussion was only in terms of its memory and CPU circuitry. I don't reclal any mention of Whirlwind having a graphics display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 12:47:28 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:47:28 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:26:07 -0800. <48F6B450.2277EBCB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <48F6B450.2277EBCB at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > I'm not sure if you're distinguishing here between SAGE and Whirlwind, but I' m > quite sure Whirlwind was using CRTs for graphical displays. I recall them bei ng > mentioned in the Whirlwind book, although it's been years since I've read it. > Presumably it had to, as it was used to as a proof-of-concept (and marketing > hook) for SAGE. Whirlwind did run 'real-world' tests of the bomber intercept system. Whirlwind was used in prototyping SAGE after it was built. However, I don't consider that to "predate SAGE" as its just part of the SAGE design effort. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 12:49:42 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:49:42 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:06:21 -0700. <48F65B4D.740.30F95A73@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <48F65B4D.740.30F95A73 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 15 Oct 2008 at 19:21, Richard wrote: > > > What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > > likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? > > A 'scope or x-y chart recorder was a standard output device for just > about any *analogue* computer, Richard. Sure; but I'm not talking about analog computers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 12:51:45 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:51:45 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:24:04 -0400. <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c at mail.gmail.com>, "Joachim Thiemann" writes: > > On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > >> > >> What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > >> likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? > > Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? Sorry, no. I don't want this to degenerate into another "but my pebble stacking box from 1500 BC is the first!" thread. I'm looking for genuine information along the directions in which I'm asking, not contorted attempts to turn any arbitrary device by some stretch of the imagination into a "computer graphics" device. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 12:53:43 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:53:43 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:55:01 -0500. <48F755C5.5050501@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <48F755C5.5050501 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Furthermore, what's a "graphical display", anyway? The only people that seem to torture themselves with these definitions are the ones on this list. Most reasonable people have no troulbe distinguishing between a text terminal and a graphics display. One displays TEXT. The other displays arbitrary figures and drawings, and no before someone gets off on another torturous stretch of the definition, "block" graphics character sets on text terminals don't count either. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 12:57:32 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:57:32 -0600 Subject: L&S 7105 Color Terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:45:20 -0500. <51ea77730810152245h5f87f1cax2e24ebed83ab1e8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730810152245h5f87f1cax2e24ebed83ab1e8d at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > I took delivery tonight of this most interesting apparatus: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/LearSiegler7105Terminal# *drool* I'm definately envious :) I didn't know this beast existed and I've been drilling down into terminals and graphics for a few years now. What's the manufacturing date? PS: Your album name says 7105, but the keyboard says 7107? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 16 13:02:21 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:02:21 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F781AD.4090303@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > and > no before someone gets off on another torturous stretch of the > definition, "block" graphics character sets on text terminals don't > count either. > So now you're adding a constraint on the pixel size? That seems rather arbitrary to me. It's unclear whether that would rule out Apple II low-resolution graphics; I'd say that clearly graphics, but the argument could be made that it consists of a "block graphics character set" in which each character is displayed as two colored blocks. From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Oct 16 13:10:37 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:10:37 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com><48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca><4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com>, <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: Ian King Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:19 AM > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca [bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:55 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: computer graphics in the 1950s > Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca >> wrote: >>> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >>>> Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? >>> If it could count, it would be a computer. :) >> You might be trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but there is a >> well-woven argument here. However, I think we may be loosing the >> thread. >> I better stop before Jay tell us to put a sock in it. > Yes, that could be looming ahead. >> --- > [snip] Woof. Now that's warped. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 16 13:12:08 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:12:08 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F783F8.1030000@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote > Whirlwind was used in prototyping SAGE after it was built. However, I > don't consider that to "predate SAGE" as its just part of the SAGE > design effort. > That's like claiming that the MX-774 ICBM was just part of the Apollo spacecraft design effort. Whirlwind was designed and partially constructed before the SAGE project was initiated. Whirlwind was not originally conceived as a SAGE prototype; it was used as one because it was available and has some (but not all) of the desired characteristics of a computer for such a system. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 16 13:18:51 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081016111123.V58869@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > > >> What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > > >> likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? > . . . > Sorry, no. I don't want this to degenerate into another "but my > pebble stacking box from 1500 BC is the first!" thread. TOO LATE. Any question that starts with "What was the first . . . " is doomed to it. > I'm looking > for genuine information along the directions in which I'm asking, not > contorted attempts to turn any arbitrary device by some stretch of the > imagination into a "computer graphics" device. Then DEFINE what you want. "genuine" is a bogus qualifier. 80 x 24 pixels may not be impressive, but it is still genuinely "a graphics display". You will NOT get the discussion that you are looking for until you can define what you want. 1) Not everybody has the same set of definitions that you do. For example, many people consider a non-CRT display to still be valid. If you don't want plotters, then you have to SAY SO. I consider a diablo micro-spaced graphics produced with the full-stop ("period") arm to be a graphics display. "You know what I mean" is NOT valid. 2) We're all a bunch of wise-asses who will look for and find the flaws in your query. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 16 13:31:33 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:31:33 +0000 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <20081016111123.V58869@shell.lmi.net> References: <20081016111123.V58869@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <101620081831.20516.48F788850006AB0D0000502422230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > > > >> What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most > > > >> likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? > > . . . > > Sorry, no. I don't want this to degenerate into another "but my > > pebble stacking box from 1500 BC is the first!" thread. > TOO LATE. Any question that starts with "What was the first . . . " is > doomed to it. As I've been reading this thread, it occurs to me that one of the big problems that arises with these "what was the first" questions is that they're usually asked from a user's point of view. But the question is being asked of people who know what's really going on behind the curtain. Not to pick on this particular question, but from the perspective of a designer, the difference between a text display and a graphics display is just not so big as to be an interesting question. But if we ask the question from a designer's point of view, such as, "what was the first CRT display that was under program control and was included for the express purpose of being an output device?" There's still room to debate a bit, but it gets to the salient features and we're more likely to have a useful answer. Just random 2 cents.. BLS From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 13:44:05 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:44:05 -0500 Subject: L&S 7105 Color Terminal In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730810152245h5f87f1cax2e24ebed83ab1e8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730810161144t18cb12e6r8cd033b5189aa443@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Richard wrote: > I didn't know this beast existed and I've been drilling down into > terminals and graphics for a few years now. And you're the one I was hoping *would* know about it :) > What's the manufacturing date? > > PS: Your album name says 7105, but the keyboard says 7107? I noticed that. The front of the terminal says 7105. The box has a line for box models, with 7105 checked. The manual applies to both. I'm assuming the keyboard does also. Either that or someone slipped in the wrong keyboard. I'll check the manual later to see if it gives any clues. I don't see a date on the terminal tags, but the manual seems to suggest 1985. I'll have more time later tonight to investigate. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 16 14:05:05 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:05:05 +0100 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com><48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca><4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com>, <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48F79061.9030401@gjcp.net> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Ian King > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:19 AM > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca [bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] >> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:55 AM >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: computer graphics in the 1950s > >> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca >>> wrote: > >>>> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > >>>>> Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? > >>>> If it could count, it would be a computer. :) > >>> You might be trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but there is a >>> well-woven argument here. However, I think we may be loosing the >>> thread. > >>> I better stop before Jay tell us to put a sock in it. > >> Yes, that could be looming ahead. >>> --- >> [snip] > > Woof. Now that's warped. > This is the sort of thing that is threatening the very fabric of our community. Gordon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 16 14:11:15 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:11:15 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F791D3.7000901@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Sorry, no. I don't want this to degenerate into another "but my > pebble stacking box from 1500 BC is the first!" thread. I'm looking > for genuine information along the directions in which I'm asking, not > contorted attempts to turn any arbitrary device by some stretch of the > imagination into a "computer graphics" device. > I know you have the '0's but, Sorry ONES's where invented about 1400 BC. :) Yet when you think about they all were FIRST, since the computer and I/O devices where invented indepenedant of each other, and about the same time. The only common idea was you could calculate using electricity rather than wheels and gears. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Oct 16 14:27:07 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:27:07 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <101620081831.20516.48F788850006AB0D0000502422230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <20081016111123.V58869@shell.lmi.net> <101620081831.20516.48F788850006AB0D0000502422230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: >... Not to pick on this particular question, but >from the perspective of a designer, the difference >between a text display and a graphics display is just >not so big as to be an interesting question. But if >we ask the question from a designer's point of view, >such as, "what was the first CRT display that was under >program control and was included for the express purpose >of being an output device?" By that definition, the year would be not later than 1961 (when the PDP-1 and its CRT I/O device appeared). paul From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 16 14:38:10 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:38:10 +0000 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: <20081016111123.V58869@shell.lmi.net><101620081831.20516.48F788850006AB0D0000502422230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <101620081938.26013.48F798220009F58E0000659D22230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > >not so big as to be an interesting question. But if > >we ask the question from a designer's point of view, > >such as, "what was the first CRT display that was under > >program control and was included for the express purpose > >of being an output device?" > > By that definition, the year would be not later than 1961 (when the PDP-1 and > its CRT I/O device appeared). And I'd say that being people of scientific inclination, this is exactly the right way to think about it. We find upper and lower bounds, and, as we learn more, we narrow those bounds. But we are careful to avoid falling into the trap of the courts where we would try to force more precision than can be justified. BLS From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 14:50:18 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:50:18 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:02:21 -0700. <48F781AD.4090303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <48F781AD.4090303 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote: > > and > > no before someone gets off on another torturous stretch of the > > definition, "block" graphics character sets on text terminals don't > > count either. > > > So now you're adding a constraint on the pixel size? That seems rather > arbitrary to me. Characters are not pixels, so no, I'm not setting a constraing on the pixel size. I *am* arbitrarily excluding text terminals with graphic character sets. Its not graphics in any sense that a practitioner of computer graphics would call it. If it were, bitmapped based displays Since I'm the one asking the question, I get to decide what the question means. This isn't the floor of the US House of Representatives. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 14:51:48 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:51:48 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:18:51 -0700. <20081016111123.V58869@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20081016111123.V58869 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > 2) We're all a bunch of wise-asses who will look for and find the flaws in > your query. Yep, that's the essence of the responses so far. Mostly useless, tangential and nitpicky. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 14:53:02 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:53:02 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:12:08 -0700. <48F783F8.1030000@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <48F783F8.1030000 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote > > Whirlwind was used in prototyping SAGE after it was built. However, I > > don't consider that to "predate SAGE" as its just part of the SAGE > > design effort. > > > That's like claiming that the MX-774 ICBM was just part of the Apollo > spacecraft design effort. No. I'm saying that I want to see some evidence that Whirlwind had such a display *before* SAGE was envisioned and that it was used for computer graphics like tasks (not for showing waveforms for test and debugging of the hardware) driven by software. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 14:55:24 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:55:24 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:50:18 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > computer graphics would call it. If it were, bitmapped based displays Somehow this got truncated. If it were, bitmap based displays would never have taken off. That bitmap based displays did take off and eventually completely displaced character cell oriented displays, just proves my point that character cell based displays are not graphic displays. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 15:43:53 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:43:53 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F79061.9030401@gjcp.net> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com><48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca><4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com>, <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> <48F79061.9030401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48F7A789.9030804@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Ian King >> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:19 AM >> >>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On >> Behalf Of bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca [bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] >>> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:55 AM >>> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: computer graphics in the 1950s >> >>> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca >>>> wrote: >> >>>>> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> >>>>>> Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? >> >>>>> If it could count, it would be a computer. :) >> >>>> You might be trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but there is a >>>> well-woven argument here. However, I think we may be loosing the >>>> thread. >> >>>> I better stop before Jay tell us to put a sock in it. >> >>> Yes, that could be looming ahead. >>>> --- >>> [snip] >> >> Woof. Now that's warped. > > This is the sort of thing that is threatening the very fabric of our > community. Gah - I read that as 'threadening'. Damn you all and the yarns that you spin! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 15:58:22 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:58:22 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: <20081016111123.V58869@shell.lmi.net> <101620081831.20516.48F788850006AB0D0000502422230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <48F7AAEE.7020504@gmail.com> Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: >> ... Not to pick on this particular question, but >>from the perspective of a designer, the difference >> between a text display and a graphics display is just >> not so big as to be an interesting question. But if >> we ask the question from a designer's point of view, >> such as, "what was the first CRT display that was under >> program control and was included for the express purpose >> of being an output device?" > > By that definition, the year would be not later than 1961 (when the PDP-1 and its CRT I/O device appeared). Although I still think a 1948 Mark 1 with the associated display qualifies (e.g. http://www.computer50.org/kgill/williams/display.html) It's specifically intended as a visual output device, and it is under program control... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 16:05:24 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:05:24 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F7AC94.2020101@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <48F783F8.1030000 at brouhaha.com>, > Eric Smith writes: > >> Richard wrote >>> Whirlwind was used in prototyping SAGE after it was built. However, I >>> don't consider that to "predate SAGE" as its just part of the SAGE >>> design effort. >>> >> That's like claiming that the MX-774 ICBM was just part of the Apollo >> spacecraft design effort. > > No. I'm saying that I want to see some evidence that Whirlwind had > such a display *before* SAGE was envisioned and that it was used for > computer graphics like tasks (not for showing waveforms for test and > debugging of the hardware) driven by software. *Ahh* - so the question is "what was the first computer with a display for displaying computer graphics", rather than "what was the first graphical display for a computer"? I think I see where we're going wrong, as the two do potentially have a subtly different meaning... Having said that, I'm willing to bet some engineer somewhere wrote some code specifically for displaying a graphical image on the earliest hardware even if the output device in question was supposed to just be a debugging aid*. Finding evidence of that might be rather tricky though - probably locked away in some long-forgotten book in a museum archive somewhere. I'm not sure it would meet your criteria anyway. * The temptation would surely be there. It's right up there with playing music using printers, disk drive heads etc. :-) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 16 15:46:17 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:46:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <48F73B5B.8020406@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 16, 8 08:02:19 am Message-ID: > > There are 5 PCBs inside the case. One just holds 2 LEDs. Another is the > > SMPSU. Which leaves 3 boards for digital stuff. One has the 80188 and > > peripheral interface chips -- I forget the details, but theu're all > > pretty standard. Another has The TMS34010, RAMDAC and lots of RAM on it. > > And the last is a daughterboard for that one and contains 10 or so EPROMs > > containing the XSerer and fonts. > > Interesting. I've seen quite a few network interfaces controlled via 80188 > CPUs in larger systems around the mid-late 80s - I wonder if they borrowed one > such design and added the ability for it to drive keyboard/mouse interfaces, > or whether they designed the network side from scratch... I am going ot have to find the schematics... The ethernet circuit used one of the stnadard (for the time) chipsets -- 8390 ethernet controller + 8391 encoder/decoder. There's a thinwire transceiver on the board (along with an AUI connector for other types of ethernet), that uses the 8392 chip. Other (main) components on the CPU board are the 80188, 512K of DRAM, a pair of 27C512 EPROMs (one lammed 'Comm', the other 'TCP'), an 8724 microcontroller (for the keyboard interface, it also has a 9346 E2PROM hung off some of its port lines, presumably to store setup data) and a 2692 serial chip, eused for RS232 and mouse ports. The video PCB contains the 34010, a apir of 27512 EPROMs. 8 megabytes of DRAM, 1 megabyte of video RAM and an 81C176 RAMDAC. The EPROM daughterboard contains 14 more 27512s -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 16 15:50:05 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:50:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at Oct 16, 8 09:55:12 am Message-ID: > > Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:17 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > > wrote: > > > >> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > >> > >>> Actually, shouldn't the Jacquard Loom count? > >>> > >> If it could count, it would be a computer. :) > >> > > > > You might be trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but there is a > > well-woven argument here. However, I think we may be loosing the > > thread. > > > > I better stop before Jay tell us to put a sock in it. > > > > > Yes, that could be looming ahead. I'm on tenterhooks waiting for the next installment of this thread. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 16 15:59:40 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:59:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 16, 8 11:53:43 am Message-ID: > > > In article <48F755C5.5050501 at gmail.com>, > Jules Richardson writes: > > > Furthermore, what's a "graphical display", anyway? > > The only people that seem to torture themselves with these definitions > are the ones on this list. Most reasonable people have no troulbe Mainly becuase you asked a question, expecting (I assume) a precise answer, and it's not at all clear what you will and will not include. A couple of messages ago, you excluded analuge computers, which I would most certainly consider to be computers. Of course you can consider digital machines only if you so wish, but surely you should state that from the outset. > distinguishing between a text terminal and a graphics display. One Well I am not use of the exact distinction. I've worked on devices which have used pixel-addressable LCD displays (that is, the display is capable of displaying graphics, it doesn't, in iteslf, have a 'text mode' or a character generator, but the (not normally changeable) firmware that controlled the device used said display to display text only (the character generator paterns were part of the firmware ROMs for the main procesor). To me, as a hardware person, that's a grpahical display module, but I'll bet you'd call it a text display. > displays TEXT. The other displays arbitrary figures and drawings, and > no before someone gets off on another torturous stretch of the > definition, "block" graphics character sets on text terminals don't > count either. OK, and what's the distinction here? Do you have a minimum resolution before somethign is caleld a 'graphical display' (if so, what is it?). Is a display of 80*24 pixels, with no other capabilites a graphical display? If it is, why does it lose that distinction when it can _also_ display text? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 16 14:34:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:34:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <200810152350.TAA16424@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Oct 15, 8 07:42:08 pm Message-ID: > > > I rememebr having a long arguement with a physics teacher who > > insisted a bridge circuit couldn't be used to measure capacitance, > > but only to compare capacitors. I am strill trying to find a > > definition of 'measurement' which does not involve comparison to a > > standard. > > Yes, but that standard does not have to be another of the type of thing > being measured. No, on the other hand, you can measure by comparing to a standard of the same time. A lot of common measuring instruments, starting with the ruler, do exactly that. Incidnetally, an AC-excited bridge circuit can meausure capacitance in terms of a standard capacitor, but you can also balance R:C against L:R (taking the obvious meaning). This is more commonly used to measure inductance (in that it's easier to get a stable stnadard capacitor than a stable standard inductor), but there's no reason in principle why you can't measure capacitance in terms of inductance and the ratio of 2 resistors. > In the case of capacitance, I think it's fair to draw a distinctino > between measuring capacitance in the form of "this capacitance is 12.7 > times that one" and measuring capacitance in the form of, say, "it > takes 137ms for a 10mA current to charge this capacitance up to 50mV" > or "with a 50kohm resistor this capacitance exhibits an R-C time > constant of 27ms". I would agree... However, M.G.Scroggie's 'Radio Laboratory Handbook' makes the probably valid point that in general it is more accurate to measure something against a standard of the same time (there are fewer 'conversions' to different physical quantities, each of which may not be exact). Said book (of course) treats assorted bridge circuits as methods of measuring 'circuit constants'. As does the _excellent_ 'Measurements in Radio Engineering' by Professor Terman (I am sure everyone here knows who he is. Now, I am sure there are people who know more about electrical measurements than Professor Terman, but I don't think such people are exactly common, and I am darn sure said physics teacher wasn't one of them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 16 16:14:15 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:14:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 16, 8 01:55:24 pm Message-ID: > That bitmap based displays did take off and eventually completely > displaced character cell oriented displays, just proves my point that > character cell based displays are not graphic displays. That strikes me as a complete non-sequitur. I want to change one phrase : 'That bitmapped displays did take of and eventually completely displaced vector displays just proves my point hat vector displays are not graphic displays'. I think that vector displays are now rarely used except for specialised application. But I would also claim that vector displays are most certainly a from of graphic display by any reasonable definition. So how you can claim your original statement is beyond me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 16 16:10:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:10:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 16, 8 01:50:18 pm Message-ID: > Characters are not pixels, so no, I'm not setting a constraing on the 'Pixel' == Picture Element, I beleive. Idon't see why a 'block graphics character' can't be an element of a picture. > pixel size. I *am* arbitrarily excluding text terminals with graphic > character sets. Its not graphics in any sense that a practitioner of > computer graphics would call it. If it were, bitmapped based displays > > Since I'm the one asking the question, I get to decide what the > question means. This isn't the floor of the US House of > Representatives. Of course you can decide what your question means. But please tell the rest of us. I've not got an ESP interface working yet. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 16 16:23:04 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081016142156.F74632@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > Of course you can decide what your question means. But please tell the > rest of us. I've not got an ESP interface working yet. What was the first computer to have an ESP interface? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 16 16:30:46 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081016143003.L74632@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > Since I'm the one asking the question, I get to decide what the > question means. This isn't the floor of the US House of > Representatives. You get to decide the WORDING of the question. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 16:41:22 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:41:22 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <20081016142156.F74632@shell.lmi.net> References: <20081016142156.F74632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48F7B502.8090703@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >> Of course you can decide what your question means. But please tell the >> rest of us. I've not got an ESP interface working yet. > > What was the first computer to have an ESP interface? You should know better - you forgot to define "computer"... From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 16:44:28 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:44:28 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:58:22 -0500. <48F7AAEE.7020504@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <48F7AAEE.7020504 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Although I still think a 1948 Mark 1 with the associated display qualifies > (e.g. http://www.computer50.org/kgill/williams/display.html) > > It's specifically intended as a visual output device, and it is under program > control... >From what I read there, this was used as an array of lights and not used to represent anything pictorially. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 16:46:30 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:46:30 -0600 Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:46:17 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > The video PCB contains the 34010, a apir of 27512 EPROMs. 8 megabytes of > DRAM, 1 megabyte of video RAM and an 81C176 RAMDAC. The EPROM > daughterboard contains 14 more 27512s I would be very interested to see a dump of the EPROMs, if you ever get a round tuit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 16:47:59 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:47:59 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:59:40 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Mainly becuase you asked a question, expecting (I assume) a precise > answer, and it's not at all clear what you will and will not include. A precise answer? No, not necessarily. A deliberate misinterpretation of commonly accepted definitions in order to prevent an answer that clearly isn't what I was expecting, but is tortured into "fitting" the discussion? Well no, I wasn't expecting that, but having subscribed to this list for some time, I should have known that was all I was likely to get. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 16:49:55 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:49:55 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:10:08 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > Characters are not pixels, so no, I'm not setting a constraing on the > > 'Pixel' == Picture Element, I beleive. Idon't see why a 'block graphics > character' can't be an element of a picture. The reason you don't see it is because you are torturing the definitions in order to come up with some crazy example. Characters are not pixels because you don't send characters to the CRT. Eventually characters are turned into a bitmap pattern of pixels and *that* is what is sent to the CRT. That's why pixels are picture elements, but characters are not. I can't believe I have to explain this basic element of digital video scanout to you Tony, I know for a fact you've delved into the circuitry of these kinds of subsystems often enough to know exactly the difference between a character and a pixel and why they are not the same. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 16 16:50:07 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081016143058.V74632@shell.lmi.net> > > 2) We're all a bunch of wise-asses who will look for and find the flaws in > > your query. On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > Yep, that's the essence of the responses so far. Mostly useless, > tangential and nitpicky. Which is MUCH more fun. Another fundamental flaw that we've been very merciful about, is that all PUBLIC definitions would only include those machines that were in such massive production that it was the first one that that writer was cognizant of. But the REAL first one was the prototype in my uncle's basement that never went into production, and that nobody knows about. I saw a CE connect an oscillosope to the innards of a machine for troubleshooting. He was looking at a bunch of squiggly pictures on it. Does that count? He also had a smaller box that he called a "vom" with some knobs and a dial, and the needle on it was bouncing back and forth in time with the actions of the computer! Surely nobody could question that a Calcomp 570 was a graphics device. But there were other plodders long before the etch-a-sketch (which I have seen interfaced to a home computer!) One of the engineers from pre-production NeXT said, "the difference between our computer and an etch-a-sketch is that you have to shake the etch-a-sketch to make the screen go blank." Oh, you meant a computer with a screen showing "point addressable" pixels! Everybody knows that it was the PC, invented by Al Gore and Bill Gates in 1986. Or one of those prototypes of the iPod that Steve Jobs invented, called the Macapple or something, which was also the first computer with a mouse and a user interface. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 16:51:07 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:51:07 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:05:24 -0500. <48F7AC94.2020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <48F7AC94.2020101 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > *Ahh* - so the question is "what was the first computer with a display for > displaying computer graphics", No. Look at the subject of this message. It doesn't ask anything about firsts. I merely commented that the first system I was aware of was the SAGE and I couldn't recall anything earlier than that. I most definately, absolutely was not asking people to identify a *first* anything. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 16 17:04:48 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F7B502.8090703@gmail.com> References: <20081016142156.F74632@shell.lmi.net> <48F7B502.8090703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081016150358.F74632@shell.lmi.net> > > What was the first computer to have an ESP interface? On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > You should know better - you forgot to define "computer"... Yes. "ESP" and "interface" are adequately defined From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 16 17:07:07 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:07:07 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:50:07 -0700. <20081016143058.V74632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20081016143058.V74632 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > Which is MUCH more fun. ...for one person had at the expense of many subscribers. Honestly I don't know what it is about email that makes people think its fun to be an asshole. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 16 17:10:09 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081016150917.M74632@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > No. Look at the subject of this message. It doesn't ask anything > about firsts. > I merely commented that the first system I was aware of was the SAGE > and I couldn't recall anything earlier than that. > I most definately, absolutely was not asking people to identify a > *first* anything. >> On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: >>> What was the first machine to have some sort of graphical display (most >>> likely oscilloscope style) driven by a computer? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 16 17:16:38 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081016151429.E74632@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Richard wrote: > Honestly I don't know what it is about email that makes people think > its fun to be an asshole. fundamental nature of the medium? Therein lies a significant on-topic sociological question: What it is about email that makes people think its fun to be an asshole? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 16 17:28:48 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:28:48 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <48F75DB0.4704.165DF54@cclist.sydex.com> If you're really curious, why not drop Carl Machover a line: http://www.arnetminer.org/personsearch.do?keyword=Carl%20Machover Carl's been giving historical presentations to ACM SIGGRAPH for donkey's years. But I'll bet he'll say Whirlwind. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 16 17:31:05 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:31:05 -0400 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810161831.05113.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 16 October 2008, Richard wrote: > Well no, I wasn't expecting that, but having subscribed to this list > for some time, I should have known that was all I was likely to get. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From evan at snarc.net Thu Oct 16 18:25:16 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:25:16 -0400 Subject: Things to do in Florida panhandle? Message-ID: <003801c92fe6$7385c560$0201a8c0@evan> I'm making plans to be in the Florida panhandle on May 2nd next year. (a relative's college graduation). I will be staying in Fort Walton Beach, although I can get a rental car. Anything to do there for a vintage computer geek like me? Or, anyone have a big collection there and just want to hang out? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 16 19:53:13 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:53:13 -0800 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s References: >, <48F75DB0.4704.165DF54@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48F7E1F8.43BE7043@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you're really curious, why not drop Carl Machover a line: > > http://www.arnetminer.org/personsearch.do?keyword=Carl%20Machover > > Carl's been giving historical presentations to ACM SIGGRAPH for > donkey's years. > > But I'll bet he'll say Whirlwind. If the question is what is the first CRT-based device *intended for use as* a programmed-output graphic display for attachment to a digital computer, I'd bet on Whirlwind too. If you want to answer the question of whether or not it predated the SAGE involvement/objectives, the following book may help: Project Whirlwind: The History of a Pioneer Computer Kent C. Redmond and Thomas M. Smith 1980 Digital Press, DEC TK 7889 W47 R43 It's a fairly detailed chronological rendition of the Whirlwind project, although weighted more to the political/administrative/funding side than the technical side. (If I were near the university I'd be pulling it off the shelf now to check.) While Whirlwind started out with a very different objective (aircraft flight trainer/simulator) than SAGE, that flight simulator objective and it's real-time processing objectives would suggest that a 'live action' CRT display device may well have been imagined and produced before the SAGE involvement. If the question is what is the first use of a CRT-based device as a programmed-output graphic display from a digital computer, I'd still guess at creative use of storage-tube-based-processor memory monitors. Various entries in the Manchester Baby 50th anniversary programming contest used the memory monitor for drawing coarse graphs and animations (executable and viewable in the Baby simulators), showing it could be done, but, needless to say, they aren't proof of historic use as such. Another line of inquiry might be to ask the Manchester Baby people whether they know of any period/historic use of the memory monitors as such. From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 16 19:09:38 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:09:38 -0400 Subject: Code reviewers sought for Lilith emulator. In-Reply-To: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> References: <48F2492E.4020002@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20081017000938.GA32301@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel once stated: > Emulith, my ETH / Diser Lilith emulator is nearly complete. > > However I would really appriciate if someone with a good grasp > of X11/xlib programming could have a look at the sourcecode. > > I am looking at tips to speed up the program, currently it > runs, on my AMD64 2 GHz, at somewhat the speed of the real thing (7 MHz). > There must be ways to speed it up... > > Any takers ? Sorry I'm coming to this late, but I can take a look at it. I've been doing Xlib programming (just finished writing a Sudoku helper [1] as a matter of fact). Part of the reason I'm doing stuff in Xlib is that I'm actually playing around with user interfaces. -spc (Besides, it's a nice break from PHP development 8-P [1] I have some window images at http://www.flummux.org/sudoku/ . I found it rather easy to write in X11 actually. You select the values by clicking on the small numbers in each square, and it'll fill in some values using some simple contraint checking. I haven't had time to release it (which means, writing documentation) but I do intend on releasing the code at some point in time. From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 16 19:29:43 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:29:43 -0400 Subject: Things to do in Florida panhandle? In-Reply-To: <003801c92fe6$7385c560$0201a8c0@evan> References: <003801c92fe6$7385c560$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <20081017002943.GB32301@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Evan Koblentz once stated: > I'm making plans to be in the Florida panhandle on May 2nd next year. (a > relative's college graduation). I will be staying in Fort Walton Beach, > although I can get a rental car. Anything to do there for a vintage > computer geek like me? Or, anyone have a big collection there and just want > to hang out? I have a collection, but I'm way down the peninsula in Boca Raton, home of the IBM PC (and just around the corner from the former home of IBM Boca Raton). And aside from that, I'm not aware of anything else classic computer related in Florida. -spc (Blue Lake ... um, T-Rex (as it's now known) is quite impressive) From tonym at compusource.net Thu Oct 16 20:22:10 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 01:22:10 GMT Subject: Things to do in Florida panhandle? Message-ID: <200810162122328.SM02868@[63.69.23.239]> Ft Walton Beach / Crestview - well, you can sit around and watch the grass grow..... Seriously - ain't "nuttin' fer miles around." If you're driving, you can check around local thrift shops and mom -n- pop computer shops. Check to see where the Gov't/military surplus depots are... other than that, you're kinda' stuck - that's the bush... not to mention the area is relatively barren, as that is sort of a military area, and most of the troops are deployed, so some areas are ghost towns. Friend of mine just moved back down here to Miami from Crestview, as he had to close up shop on his computer store, as there was just not enough business - everyone's gone. Sean - mebbe we need to get together and see if we can swap stuff :) Ping me offline. Tony -----Original Message----- From: Sean Conner spc at conman.org Sent 10/16/2008 8:29:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Things to do in Florida panhandle? It was thus said that the Great Evan Koblentz once stated: I'm making plans to be in the Florida panhandle on May 2nd next year. (a relative's college graduation). I will be staying in Fort Walton Beach, although I can get a rental car. Anything to do there for a vintage computer geek like me? Or, anyone have a big collection there and just want to hang out? I have a collection, but I'm way down the peninsula in Boca Raton, home of the IBM PC (and just around the corner from the former home of IBM Boca Raton). And aside from that, I'm not aware of anything else classic computer related in Florida. -spc (Blue Lake ... um, T-Rex (as it's now known) is quite impressive) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 20:32:25 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:32:25 -0400 Subject: Things to do in Florida panhandle? In-Reply-To: <20081017002943.GB32301@brevard.conman.org> References: <003801c92fe6$7385c560$0201a8c0@evan> <20081017002943.GB32301@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <48F7EB29.3090003@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Evan Koblentz once stated: >> I'm making plans to be in the Florida panhandle on May 2nd next year. (a >> relative's college graduation). I will be staying in Fort Walton Beach, >> although I can get a rental car. Anything to do there for a vintage >> computer geek like me? Or, anyone have a big collection there and just want >> to hang out? > > I have a collection, but I'm way down the peninsula in Boca Raton, home of > the IBM PC (and just around the corner from the former home of IBM Boca > Raton). And aside from that, I'm not aware of anything else classic > computer related in Florida. Dave McGuire lives in Port Charlotte. Joe Rigdon is near Orlando somewhere. Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 22:08:04 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:08:04 -0500 Subject: L&S 7105 Color Terminal In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730810152245h5f87f1cax2e24ebed83ab1e8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730810162008p74ad03d6tf3051b42c2f2cb70@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Richard wrote: > What's the manufacturing date? No evidence of a date on the unit itself, but the manual says "June 1985." Also of note, it is compatible to the Tek 4014's graphics language. From tonym at compusource.net Thu Oct 16 22:13:31 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:13:31 -0400 Subject: Zeos Pocket PC References: <003801c92fe6$7385c560$0201a8c0@evan><20081017002943.GB32301@brevard.conman.org> <48F7EB29.3090003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01c93006$57e2ace0$9964a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Anybody got a dead Zeos Pocket PC, and have the accessories? I need the parallel/serial cables, mebbe a PCMCIA card or 2 as well. on another front, if anyone has a gateway handbook, I think I have a parallel adapter for it. If someone is in need, I can take a pic and verify that's what it it. Tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 23:12:46 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:12:46 -0700 Subject: Need help with dead 11/23+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90810162112j2ab05f13p5fd96a5f44a5ad4@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Charles wrote: > > Last week, although the keyboard was dead, it would come up as far > as the prompt: > > 2048. KW > START? > I just verified that I could update my M8189 with the same old boot ROMs you have with the 23-380E4 / 23-381E4 ROM images programmed into a couple of MCM68766 EPROMs. The M8189 11/23+ now identifies itself as KDF11B-BH ROM V1.0 during initialization. The MAP feature in the newer ROMs is always nice to have to when reconfiguring boards to make sure you have the CSR jumpers set correctly. The ANSI console mode is interesting too but doesn't really add anything much unless you like menus. I noticed that the switch pack switches have different meaning than the old ROMs and was going to ask if anyone has documentation for the switches with the new ROMs, but found that the switches are documented in EK-245AA-MG-001 which you can find on http://www.vt100.net/manx/ I think the ROM upgrade on my 11/23+ was worth the bother of digging out the EPROM programming. Luckily I happened to have some blank 68766's on hand. -Glen From lists at databasics.us Fri Oct 17 00:10:21 2008 From: lists at databasics.us (lists at databasics.us) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:10:21 +0000 Subject: OT: Administrative Issue Message-ID: <20081017051021.21919.qmail@server318.com> Hello, All, Many thanks to those who offered assistance in my attempt to change my address on the list. I was successful. Apparently, the sixth time is the charm. Previous to writing, I followed the methods listed in the suggestions, including changing my current account, and adding a new account. Nothing worked. I went in through the main page of classiccmp.org. But, when I followed the links given in the suggestion messages, it worked. I don't understand it, but, I accept the results. Again, thank you to all who responded, publicly and privately... This is a good crowd. Sincerely, Warren Wolfe From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 17 00:47:21 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 01:47:21 -0400 Subject: Printers, printer parts (dye sub, laser, and inkjet), maintenance manuals Message-ID: <48F826E9.3030203@hawkmountain.net> I have: Tektronix Phaser 350 Model 2350 Options FX has PhaserShare Ethernet Card installed got it to spit out one page... was messy... might just need new ink and a good cleaning. I will part this out ... or free for local pickup (Sharon, MA or Cambridge, MA) Xerox DocuPrint P12 laser printer had paper feed issue... feeds ok with printer at 45 degree angle but not resting flat on desk. Did not investigate why... should be a simple fix (maybe even just clean paper feed roller?) free for local pickup (Sharon, MA or Cambridge, MA) HP Deskjet 660Cse inkjet printer will need new ink cartridge(s) free for local pickup (Sharon, MA or Cambridge MA) or $5 + actual ship Laserjet 98A toner cartridge, 2 (1 new in box, 1 new not in box) (for LJ4s and LJ5s) (would trade for LJ6 carts) Brother TN-5000PF toner for IntelliFAX FAX2750/3550/3650/3750 MFC-4450/4550/4550PLUS/4660 6550MC/6680MC/7550MC/7650MC/7750MC Digital LN03 toner kits Digital LN03 maintenance kits Digital LN03 Programmer Reference Manual Apple Service Technical Procedures for Laser Printers this covers the original Apple LaserWriter p/n 072-0163 TI Microlaser Personal Laser Printer Maintenance Manual p/n 2559877-0001 Canon SX engine laser printer parts (LaserWriter II/IINT/IINTX/IIF/IIG, Laserjet II, III, QMS PS810/PS815) including fans, power supplies, gears, logic boards (LaserWriter IINT, QMS PS810), etc. Anything not labelled free is make an offer. Some of this stuff will hit the dumpster by mid next week if not sooner. -- Curt From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 17 01:04:43 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 01:04:43 -0500 Subject: Great day at Tek Message-ID: Gang, I went to the Tektronix surplus sale today for the first time. Wow! welcome to Beaverton! I Picked up a 7004A and half a dozen plug ins for $90; 2006 cal tags on everything and it works fine. I also got a Dell P4 1.76 Ghz 40G hard drive PC for $35, boots up fine too. I plan to go on this by-monthly visit so if you need a good scope or parts let me know. I want a Ardent or Stellar or Stardent if any body finds one being dumped. Randy Dawson _________________________________________________________________ Want to read Hotmail messages in Outlook? The Wordsmiths show you how. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/wedowindowslive.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!20EE04FBC541789!167.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_092008 From jefferwin at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 08:03:00 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:03:00 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 62, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <200810160709.m9G79RYN063984@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810160709.m9G79RYN063984@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7c7c96a50810160603s723c6b01nb2e4470286a4e18f@mail.gmail.com> > > > > > Ok, Jeff, I am wondering what you might be referring to. I think you > might be thinking of PL/M-86, which I'm not that familiar with. No, it's definitely PLM80 I am currently using. > > > Intel, generally, would issue two manuals for PL/M-80 (and ASM-80 as > well). One manual is the PL/M-80 Programming Manual and one is the > ISIS-II PL/M-80 Compiler Operator's Manual. I have in front of me the > "PL/M-80 Programming Manual", no. 9800268B, which is dated 1977, and the > DATA construct is in it. It is used at load time to set initial values > of variables. I believe that this manual applies to several versions of > PL/M-80, including V4 and earlier ones. It is basically a syntax manual. Well...if you are going to let facts get in the way.... Your actual manual wins out over my rusty brain cells. It is the manual above, the Programmers Manual, that I lust after. The one thing that seems to have changed from V3 to V4 is the following statement: In V3: DECLARE HELLO DATA ('Hello world.'); in V4: DECLARE HELLO (*) BYTE DATA ('Hello world.'); There are other subtle changes I have found. I discovered these as I was using older PLM source code for CPM as a programming example, and certain constructs were being rejected by the V4 compiler. I could also just be screwing something up. I always reserve the right to do that... > > I have the "ISIS-II PL/M-80 Compiler Operator's Manual", no. 9800300-04, > dated 3/82. It is the manual that was issued specifically for V4.0 of > the compiler. There are several "$" commands listed. All those "$" > commands are also listed in the V3.0/V3.1 version of that manual > (9800300C). I have this for V3, I figured out the V4 compiler commands by going through the PLM80 executable. V3 used the $P=1 construct, V4 used the $CODE/$NOCODE constructs which were a lot clearer. The $P=1 model does not work with the V4 compiler I have, the one with the overlays. > > > The Programming Manual did not change from V3.0 to V4.0. The language > was really the same. I programmed a lot in those days and I never had > to change anything moving from V3 to V4. It would be interesting to look up the DATA syntax above in V3 and V4 and see what is confusing me. > > > I think the main changes from 3 to 4 had to do with newer operating > system environments. Newer versions of ISIS-II could have more than the > four or six or seven disk drives by allowing networked drive assignments > up through :F9:. File names could be longer, as well. I think those > were some of the differences from V3.x to V4.0. But the language syntax > was the same. > > > > >>> Specifically, I am in need of: > >>> > >>> 98-00268B plm 80 programming manual, V4 > >>> > >>> Thanks. > >>> > >>> Jeff Erwin > >>> > >>> By the way, I am running the ISIS-II emulator in a DOS box under > windows, > >>> itself an emulator. Windows is running under Parallels on my Mac Pro > >>> > > which > > > >>> is running OSx. Is it possible to get further from reality here?? > >>> > >>> > > > Can I offer to pay you for a copy of the two manuals you refer to above? Jeff Erwin > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:50:44 -0500 > From: wgungfu at uwm.edu > Subject: RE: article ref to 50th birthday of video games > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: <1224111044.48f673c4a3527 at panthermail.uwm.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Except both are computer games, not video games, despite the PR move by > some > companies to push them as otherwise. This was already all hashed out in > the > courts. > > Marty > > Quoting Paul_Koning at Dell.com: > > > Neat. That predates the PDP-1 "spacewar" game, which I had thought of as > the > > oldest. And it may still be the oldest video game on a digital computer. > > > > paul > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > > Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:17 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: article ref to 50th birthday of video games > > > > Old news for many here perhaps, but here's a writeup about physicist > William > > Higinbotham's creation of "Tennis-for-two" at Brookhaven Labs in 1958: > > > > http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/10/15/tech-games.html > > > > Mentions how the initial inspiration came from reading the manual for an > > analog > > computer and how it could be used for ballistic trajectory calculations. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:51:08 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques > Subject: Re: Symbolics Genera (was "NEC SX-4B on Ebay") > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII > > >>> It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in > >>> existence. At least for even moderately technical people. > >> There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people (cf > >> Unix Hater's Handbook). > > > >Even aside from that, I'm not convinced. I think Symbolics Genera is > >arguably more programmer-friendly, though that could just be because I > >find Lisp a much nicer language than C. (There may be even better > >OSes; that's just what I have personal experience with.) > > This message pertains to der Mouse's comment... Out of idle curiosity I > looked up Symbolics Genera and the story of the Lisp machines... > Fascinating! Any idea of how to get one's hands on such a machine? eBay is > not forthcoming although they have been mentioned in some old messages on > cctalk. > > - Alex > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 29 > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:02:08 +0200 > From: "Stephane Tsacas" > Subject: Re: Symbolics Genera (was "NEC SX-4B on Ebay") > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > 2008/10/16 Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques > > > It's a UNIX box, man. The most (programmer-)friendly OS in > >>>> existence. At least for even moderately technical people. > >>>> > >>> There are UNIX-compatible people and non-UNIX-compatible people (cf > >>> Unix Hater's Handbook). > >>> > >> > >> Even aside from that, I'm not convinced. I think Symbolics Genera is > >> arguably more programmer-friendly, though that could just be because I > >> find Lisp a much nicer language than C. (There may be even better > >> OSes; that's just what I have personal experience with.) > >> > > > > This message pertains to der Mouse's comment... Out of idle curiosity I > > looked up Symbolics Genera and the story of the Lisp machines... > > Fascinating! Any idea of how to get one's hands on such a machine? > > > Check : > http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/index.html > Nice CADR emulator, works. > > St?phane > (Looking for a Nova switch key). > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 62, Issue 34 > ************************************** > From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Oct 16 09:07:08 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:07:08 +0200 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F74A8C.7080606@iais.fraunhofer.de> Tony Duell schrieb: >>>> The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" >>>> non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that >>> IO think we can instantly eliminat 'mf' == millifarad (which is what it >>> should be!), since that's then 2.2F, which is rediculously large >> Of course. I never thought it was millifarad. I think in this case it was just sloppyness (or even lack of understanding, or in best case just a typo) of the circuit designer to specify 2200mf. > Well, it's what it _should_ be. Mind you, millifarad is not a > commonly-used unit for some unknown reason (I routinely see capacitors > marked 100000uF rather than 100mF or even 0.1F), although i have seen it > used in, I think, an HP manual mF has been uncommon because with the exception of gold caps, you rarely find capacitors with such large capacity, and in common circuits, you won't need these sizes. For the traditional power supply, I have seldomly used larger caps than 10000uF; if one needed more, it is more likely the wrong design has been chosen. > Incidentally, I saw a 2.7kF (no, not a typo!) low-voltage electrolytic in > a catalogue recently. And to think that when I was at school the physics > 'teacher' told us that a 1F capacitor would be 'larger than this room' > and that we'd never seen on. About a week later I dropped a square plasic > object on his deck -- a 1F capacitor that I'd bought from Farnell or > somewhere. Been there, having done and seen that, most teacher with pure physics background have no knowledge of practical electronics, so no surprise. >>> 2200nF (==2.2uF) would be possible, but it's a very odd way to write it. >> Yes. This was also written in the 1970s, so I'm trying historical >> interpretation as well as what's obviously written. > > nF was common in Europe in the 70's, much less common in the States, I think. Please don't speak for Europe when talking about GB. In Germany, pF, nF, and uF are still common nowadays, and everyone uses them where appropriate. I had to learn about circuits (mostly from US magazines) that contained rather uncommon values like 2200000pF or 0.000001uF which would be better understandable when written with less zeros. > Err, millimicrofarad = nanofarad. The picofarad is the micromicrofarad. > I've seen uuF (where the 'u' is actually $\mu$) in old manuals. > > Am I the only person to remember the millimicron as an equivalent for nm > when talking about optical wavelengths, etc? Reminds me of describing speeds as angstrom per fortnight. Infact, instead of nm, angstrom are frequently still used for wavelengths, but SI units are supposed to ever have only one single prefix pico, nano, micro, milli etc. and not combining them as in milli-micro-farad. OTOH, it might be a selling argument for a CPU with 2 MilliPeta-Hz, and surely a common distance is more challengingly written as 1000000000000 femtokilometers. -- Holger From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 16 14:55:41 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810162007.QAA27137@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Characters are not pixels, They can certainly be used as an implementation of pixels. Consider those Snoopy-picture printouts. > Since I'm the one asking the question, I get to decide what the > question means. Sure, but when the question as worded is ambiguous, you kinda have to expect people to explore the boundaries of it in their answers - at least until you clarify, and to a certain extent even then (we, as a list, have a tendency to respond to questions with answers to similar-but-a-bit-different questions). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 16 15:09:18 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810162012.QAA27181@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> computer graphics would call it. If it were, bitmapped based displays > If it were, bitmap based displays would never have taken off. > That bitmap based displays did take off and eventually completely > displaced character cell oriented displays, just proves my point that > character cell based displays are not graphic displays. Hardly. That bitmapped displays took off indicates they are better for a substantial fraction of the applications. It doesn't mean they are the only graphic displays. (LCD monitors took off; does this prove that CRTs are not video monitors?) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 16 16:50:21 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:50:21 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081016215021.GG13099@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (10/16/2008 at 10:10PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > Of course you can decide what your question means. But please tell the > rest of us. I've not got an ESP interface working yet. Hayes built the ESP interface around 1996... http://bill.herrin.us/freebies/hayes-esp8/ oh, wait... -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 17 04:03:42 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 02:03:42 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F854EE.5070500@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > In article <48F783F8.1030000 at brouhaha.com>, > Eric Smith writes: > > >> Richard wrote >> >>> Whirlwind was used in prototyping SAGE after it was built. However, I >>> don't consider that to "predate SAGE" as its just part of the SAGE >>> design effort. >>> >>> >> That's like claiming that the MX-774 ICBM was just part of the Apollo >> spacecraft design effort. >> > > No. I'm saying that I want to see some evidence that Whirlwind had > such a display *before* SAGE was envisioned and that it was used for > computer graphics like tasks (not for showing waveforms for test and > debugging of the hardware) driven by software. > Well, read just about any reference on Whirlwind. Information about it isn't particularly hard to find. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 17 04:08:57 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 02:08:57 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <200810162012.QAA27181@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200810162012.QAA27181@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48F85629.3070601@brouhaha.com> der Mouse wrote: > Hardly. That bitmapped displays took off indicates they are better for > a substantial fraction of the applications. Indicates that they're better as of the time that they took off, and that they were worse before that time. Vector displays had the advantage for many years because they didn't require as much expensive memory and processing power, and produced sharper lines. It wasn't until the late 1970s that the memory cost dropped enough that it essentially ceased to be an issue, and it wasn't until the mid 1990s that bitmap displays with high enough resolution to rival the sharp lines of vector displays became commonplace. From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Oct 17 05:31:20 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 04:31:20 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F85629.3070601@brouhaha.com> References: <200810162012.QAA27181@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <48F85629.3070601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48F86978.4090101@e-bbes.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Vector displays had the advantage for many years because they didn't > require as much expensive memory and processing power, and produced > sharper lines. It wasn't until the late 1970s that the memory cost > dropped enough that it essentially ceased to be an issue, and it wasn't > until the mid 1990s that bitmap displays with high enough resolution to > rival the sharp lines of vector displays became commonplace. > Still think that the vector displays look "sexier" ;-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 08:53:56 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 08:53:56 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <20081016143058.V74632@shell.lmi.net> References: <20081016143058.V74632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48F898F4.6090706@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Another fundamental flaw that we've been very merciful about, is that all > PUBLIC definitions would only include those machines that were in such > massive production that it was the first one that that writer was > cognizant of. But the REAL first one was the prototype in my uncle's > basement that never went into production, and that nobody knows about. Spot-on. Inventions normally stem from someone hacking away in a corner; it takes marketing and a fair amount of polishing to make a product and bring it to peoples' attention, but the way I see it the hacked prototype still does what it does 'first'. > Oh, you meant a computer with a screen showing "point addressable" > pixels! Heh. Define 'point' of course - but even a point on a colour CRT is made from three entities, so why can a 'point' not also be a more complicated pattern (such as a character cell)? Murky waters indeed. cheers Jules From dmabry at mich.com Fri Oct 17 09:02:33 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:02:33 -0400 Subject: PLM80 V4 docs needed In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50810160603s723c6b01nb2e4470286a4e18f@mail.gmail.com> References: <200810160709.m9G79RYN063984@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7c7c96a50810160603s723c6b01nb2e4470286a4e18f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F89AF9.80900@mich.com> Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/16/2008 9:03 AM: >> >> >> Ok, Jeff, I am wondering what you might be referring to. I think you >> might be thinking of PL/M-86, which I'm not that familiar with. >> > > > No, it's definitely PLM80 I am currently using. > > >> Intel, generally, would issue two manuals for PL/M-80 (and ASM-80 as >> well). One manual is the PL/M-80 Programming Manual and one is the >> ISIS-II PL/M-80 Compiler Operator's Manual. I have in front of me the >> "PL/M-80 Programming Manual", no. 9800268B, which is dated 1977, and the >> DATA construct is in it. It is used at load time to set initial values >> of variables. I believe that this manual applies to several versions of >> PL/M-80, including V4 and earlier ones. It is basically a syntax manual. >> > > > Well...if you are going to let facts get in the way.... > Your actual manual wins out over my rusty brain cells. It is the manual > above, the Programmers Manual, that I lust after. > Sorry about using facts. ;) I was really trying to validate MY rusty brain cells. One thing I do claim is a pretty good knowledge of PL/M-80. In the old days I did many projects with PL/M-80 and some with PL/M-51, and I think I still remember it. A couple of years ago I was able to write a small program in PL/M-80 using one of my working MDS's and get it to compile and run without opening the manual. > The one thing that seems to have changed from V3 to V4 is the following > statement: > > In V3: DECLARE HELLO DATA ('Hello world.'); > in V4: DECLARE HELLO (*) BYTE DATA ('Hello world.'); > > There are other subtle changes I have found. I discovered these as I was > using older PLM source code for CPM as a programming example, and certain > constructs were being rejected by the V4 compiler. > > I could also just be screwing something up. I always reserve the right to > do that... > I *was* wrong when I said that DATA was used to initialize a variable at run time. The DATA construct puts the variable initialization into ROM and therefore that variable can't be changed at runtime. It is fixed. The "*" in the array length declaration is called "implicit array length" and just means that the array is defined to be the length needed to hold the contents that follow the word DATA in the declaration. That implicit (*) specifier was part of the syntax in the very first version of PL/M-80 that ran on the MDS. It was NOT part of the syntax for the original cross-compiler that was written in Fortran for mainframes. I have found all my PL/M-80 documentation and it is a treasure trove. I have a short document from Intel that tells a programmer what has to be changed in source code in order for a cross-compiler compliant program to compile on the resident compiler. In that document it talks about the implicit specifier. So that construct was in the very first resident compiler (V1.0). In your example above, if the line you label V3 would actually compile correctly in V3, then it was not documented to work that way. It may have passed the compiler syntax check, but the manual never specified it would. If the (*) was required for V4 to be happy, it was a case of the compiler now enforcing what was *always* documented as the correct syntax. > > >> I have the "ISIS-II PL/M-80 Compiler Operator's Manual", no. 9800300-04, >> dated 3/82. It is the manual that was issued specifically for V4.0 of >> the compiler. There are several "$" commands listed. All those "$" >> commands are also listed in the V3.0/V3.1 version of that manual >> (9800300C). >> > > > I have this for V3, I figured out the V4 compiler commands by going through > the PLM80 executable. V3 used the $P=1 construct, V4 used the $CODE/$NOCODE > constructs which were a lot clearer. The $P=1 model does not work with the > V4 compiler I have, the one with the overlays. > $CODE and $NOCODE worked with V3.0 of the compiler. I have that in the documentation and I remember it. It would force 8080 assembly language equivalent to be placed into the listing file generated by the compiler. The $P=1 directive is unfamiliar to me. It is not in the manuals that I have and I don't remember it. Do you have an example of that? What does it do? It must predate the V3 compiler. > >> The Programming Manual did not change from V3.0 to V4.0. The language >> was really the same. I programmed a lot in those days and I never had >> to change anything moving from V3 to V4. >> > > > It would be interesting to look up the DATA syntax above in V3 and V4 and > see what is confusing me. > There is no mention of DATA in the operators manual. And, as I said, the syntax manual is the same. It didn't change from V3 to V4. > >> I think the main changes from 3 to 4 had to do with newer operating >> system environments. Newer versions of ISIS-II could have more than the >> four or six or seven disk drives by allowing networked drive assignments >> up through :F9:. File names could be longer, as well. I think those >> were some of the differences from V3.x to V4.0. But the language syntax >> was the same. >> >> >>>>> Specifically, I am in need of: >>>>> >>>>> 98-00268B plm 80 programming manual, V4 >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Erwin >>>>> >>>>> >> > Can I offer to pay you for a copy of the two manuals you refer to above? > > Jeff Erwin > > I will work on scanning these manuals. You don't have to pay me. It won't happen right away, but I will do it. Watch for further updates! For now, here are a few interesting documents. http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehp41cx/PLM/V4_letter.jpg http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehp41cx/PLM/V4_dear_PLM_owner.jpg http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehp41cx/PLM/V4_dear_PLM_owner (2).jpg http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehp41cx/PLM/V4_update.jpg Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 09:05:23 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:05:23 -0500 Subject: Great day at Tek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F89BA3.10803@gmail.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > I want a Ardent or Stellar or Stardent if any body finds one being dumped. Someone contacted me early in the year about an Ardent going surplus in Colorado, then the conversation went quiet on me :( I should do some more digging on that one and see what happened to it. I still want a Tex XD88/30, should you see one at your surplus sales :-) I'll get my XD88/10 shipped here at some point, but I'd still like to mess around with the 24-bit version! cheers Jules From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Oct 17 09:50:16 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:50:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F7AC94.2020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081017145016.6F99F55E65@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jules Richardson > > Richard wrote: > > In article <48F783F8.1030000 at brouhaha.com>, > > Eric Smith writes: > > > >> Richard wrote > >>> Whirlwind was used in prototyping SAGE after it was built. However, I > >>> don't consider that to "predate SAGE" as its just part of the SAGE > >>> design effort. > >>> > >> That's like claiming that the MX-774 ICBM was just part of the Apollo > >> spacecraft design effort. > > > > No. I'm saying that I want to see some evidence that Whirlwind had > > such a display *before* SAGE was envisioned and that it was used for > > computer graphics like tasks (not for showing waveforms for test and > > debugging of the hardware) driven by software. > > *Ahh* - so the question is "what was the first computer with a display for > displaying computer graphics", rather than "what was the first graphical > display for a computer"? I think I see where we're going wrong, as the two do > potentially have a subtly different meaning... > > Having said that, I'm willing to bet some engineer somewhere wrote some code > specifically for displaying a graphical image on the earliest hardware even if > the output device in question was supposed to just be a debugging aid*. > Finding evidence of that might be rather tricky though - probably locked away > in some long-forgotten book in a museum archive somewhere. I'm not sure it > would meet your criteria anyway. > Even the Commodore PET had an addon board made by Micro Technology Unlimited that gave it a 320 x 200 bitmap display. Cheers, Bryan > * The temptation would surely be there. It's right up there with playing music > using printers, disk drive heads etc. :-) > > cheers > > Jules > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 17 09:51:58 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:51:58 -0700 Subject: Great day at Tek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:04 AM -0500 10/17/08, Randy Dawson wrote: >Gang, > >I went to the Tektronix surplus sale today for the first time. Wow! >welcome to Beaverton! > >I Picked up a 7004A and half a dozen plug ins for $90; 2006 cal tags >on everything and it works fine. >I also got a Dell P4 1.76 Ghz 40G hard drive PC for $35, boots up fine too. I'm stunned! I don't believe I've seen test equipment there since the mid-80's. Of course I haven't been there since 2000 or before. Does this mean they have stuff there worth buying? The last time I was in there it was more of a furniture store than anything. Sometimes I think I grew up in that store, as my Dad worked at Tek and it seemed like every Saturday morning we'd go. That was back when it was employee's only, and it was in Beaverton where Dania is now (though I also remember it being on the other side of 217). My best find was a hand-held 80-column card punch back in the late-70's or early 80's. I still have it in the original box. I did buy an old PDP-11 rack (empty) there back around '99. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 09:53:20 2008 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:53:20 +0100 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640810170753r69d1112fnc875f85e88d5644e@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/16 Zane H. Healy : > At 12:21 PM +0100 10/16/08, Dan Williams wrote: >> >> I have just bought a dual 900mhz Sparc machine with 2gb memory. for >> ?130. I haven't got it yet. But I am quite sure it will be fast enough >> to use as a desktop machine. Also should be fairly quick at compiling >> bits and pieces. > > Is it a SunBlade 1000 by any chance? If so you'd better have a good A/C in > the room. :-( I've only been able to run mine in the dead of winter when I > could open the door and let cool air in. > > Zane > > > -- No it's a 2000. It's a lot bigger, noiser and heavier then I was expecting. I was thinking it was just a tower machine. I didn't realise the depth of it. Any idea how well these run with Solaris 10, do you know if it would run any quicker with 8 or 9. Dan > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Oct 17 10:03:48 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F86978.4090101@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20081017150348.994D356F85@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by e.stiebler > > Eric Smith wrote: > > Vector displays had the advantage for many years because they didn't > > require as much expensive memory and processing power, and produced > > sharper lines. It wasn't until the late 1970s that the memory cost > > dropped enough that it essentially ceased to be an issue, and it wasn't > > until the mid 1990s that bitmap displays with high enough resolution to > > rival the sharp lines of vector displays became commonplace. > > > Still think that the vector displays look "sexier" ;-) > The Star Wars vector arcade game from 1983 is just beautiful IMHO.. :-) Absolutely no jaggies at all! Cheers, Bryan From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 17 10:21:08 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:21:08 -0400 Subject: 2 items for $5 Message-ID: <48F8AD64.4060204@hawkmountain.net> pick any two items and they are just $5 + actual shipping costs. let me know ASAP if you want anything here, as this stuff will be going to the trash by Sunday. If you are local to me, you can pick up anything on this list for free.... but let me know ASAP so I can put it aside for you. PCI RAID card, SCSI HVD (differential), for Alpha (so I'm told) Sun 501-1720 SLC mainboard w/o NVRAM Sun 501-1720 SLC mainboard (w (dead?) NVRAM) 501-1840 Sbus expansion sbus card Coleco ADAM setup manual Artecon SmartBox adapter board (Artecon's version of sbus expansion) Global Villiage teleport Platinum Fax Modem model A812 (for Mac) Maxtor RXT-800S Magneto Optical drive (not tested (no media)) Syquest SparQ 1.0GB internal drive (not tested (no media)) Corporate Systems Center PCI DIFF SCSI card (HVD), for sparc ? Compaq drive 'sled' for Pentium II (and III ?) generation -- has the two purple tabs/levers on the left/right ediges LaCie FM radio tuner for Macs (ADB) Performance Technology PT-PCI450 SCSI 3 Ultra Wide Fast Diff (HVD) (Sun?) 2 PCI FDDI cards Olicom OC-3161 16 serial port ISA card (just ISA card) 2 x 5G + 1 x 4G laptop hard drives (password locked?) SyQuest EZ Drive 135M EZ135EXT,P/PORT parallel port drive untested SyQuest SQ555 40M drive Sun 501-1861 ELC board untested Apple QuickTake Battery Charger KB-39PA (4xAA charger) Sparcstation 20 hard drive 'carrier' 1G SCA scsi drives HP Deskjet 600Cse (needs new ink cartridge) Compaq PS4000 Power supply compaq part number 270371-001 HP C2490A 2G differential SCSI drives 3.5" HH (6 available) Compaq LCD front panel for Proliant 6000 and others Sealed Copy of PC Anywhere 9.0 Sealed copy of McAfee VirusScan Security Suite (from the 90s) -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 17 10:34:13 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:34:13 -0400 Subject: FS: $5 + $10 items Message-ID: <48F8B075.7030702@hawkmountain.net> $5 Items (plus actual ship, or you pick up in Sharon or Cambridge, MA) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- APEX Outlook EL-84DT (with the DT crossed out and SP handwritten) - 8 port serial concentrator Indigo 2 audio module - 2 available 4 x 8M 72 pin SIMMS for SGI with gold fingers - 2 sets available DEC Turbo Channel PMAG A card HP Printer PAL (turns LJ III, III/D/P, 4, 4P/L/PLUS, 5P) into laser fax machine - new sealed in box 2G SCA SCSI drive - multiple available 4G SCA SCSI drive - multiple available Maxtor MXT1240S 50 pin 1.2 G SCSI drive (3.5" HH) - these drives somtimes don't spin up on first power on SGI PM3 Indigo 2 CPU (200MHz 1M cache) $10 Items (plus actual ship, or you pick up in Sharon or Cambridge, MA) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9G SCA SCSI drive - multiple available SPARCClassic, no HD, 6 x 501-1991 SIMMs Ultra 10 with 333MHz 2M cache CPU, no ram, no HD Mouse Systems PC Jr Mouse (optical, no pad (could use pad from Sun)) 3Com 3C597TX Fast Ethernet EISA (use on Indigo 2 for 100baseTX !) Let me know if there is anything here you want.... before I scrap some of it, ebay other bits, etc... -- Curt From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 10:37:37 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:37:37 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <20081017150348.994D356F85@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20081017150348.994D356F85@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <48F8B141.2030000@gmail.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by e.stiebler >> Eric Smith wrote: >>> Vector displays had the advantage for many years because they didn't >>> require as much expensive memory and processing power, and produced >>> sharper lines. It wasn't until the late 1970s that the memory cost >>> dropped enough that it essentially ceased to be an issue, and it wasn't >>> until the mid 1990s that bitmap displays with high enough resolution to >>> rival the sharp lines of vector displays became commonplace. >>> >> Still think that the vector displays look "sexier" ;-) >> > > The Star Wars vector arcade game from 1983 is just beautiful IMHO.. :-) > Absolutely no jaggies at all! So what's the practical upper limit on a vector display? Did the speed at which the CRT guns could deflect become an issue, or were the limitations in vector display's heyday purely on the 'computer' side (i.e. how fast the machine could pull data from memory and drive the CRT)? I'm just wondering what could be done with a vector display on more modern hardware; whether a lot more detail than the old systems could be achieved... cheers Jules From JELynch at stny.rr.com Fri Oct 17 10:40:51 2008 From: JELynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:40:51 -0400 Subject: FS: $5 + $10 items In-Reply-To: <48F8B075.7030702@hawkmountain.net> References: <48F8B075.7030702@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <48F8B203.7020301@stny.rr.com> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > $5 Items (plus actual ship, or you pick up in Sharon or Cambridge, MA) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > APEX Outlook EL-84DT (with the DT crossed out and SP handwritten) > - 8 port serial concentrator > > Indigo 2 audio module > - 2 available > > 4 x 8M 72 pin SIMMS for SGI with gold fingers > - 2 sets available > > DEC Turbo Channel PMAG A card > > HP Printer PAL (turns LJ III, III/D/P, 4, 4P/L/PLUS, 5P) into laser > fax machine > - new sealed in box > > 2G SCA SCSI drive > - multiple available > > 4G SCA SCSI drive > - multiple available > > Maxtor MXT1240S 50 pin 1.2 G SCSI drive (3.5" HH) > - these drives somtimes don't spin up on first power on > > SGI PM3 Indigo 2 CPU (200MHz 1M cache) > > > $10 Items (plus actual ship, or you pick up in Sharon or Cambridge, MA) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > 9G SCA SCSI drive > - multiple available > > SPARCClassic, no HD, 6 x 501-1991 SIMMs > > Ultra 10 with 333MHz 2M cache CPU, no ram, no HD > > Mouse Systems PC Jr Mouse (optical, no pad (could use pad from Sun)) > > 3Com 3C597TX Fast Ethernet EISA (use on Indigo 2 for 100baseTX !) > > > > > Let me know if there is anything here you want.... before I scrap > some of it, ebay other bits, etc... > > -- Curt > Hi Curt, I may be interested in the HP Printer PAL. What is the HP model number? Thanks. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 17 11:02:14 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:02:14 -0400 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <26c11a640810170753r69d1112fnc875f85e88d5644e@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> <26c11a640810170753r69d1112fnc875f85e88d5644e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32128ABE-CA2C-45BB-A15B-6FF95C084F56@neurotica.com> On Oct 17, 2008, at 10:53 AM, Dan Williams wrote: > No it's a 2000. It's a lot bigger, noiser and heavier then I was > expecting. I was thinking it was just a tower machine. I didn't > realise the depth of it. Yes, it's a big box. > Any idea how well these run with Solaris 10, do you know if it would > run any quicker with 8 or 9. They are *fantastic* with Solaris 10. 10 is quite a bit quicker than 8 or 9 for most workloads. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 17 11:13:59 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:13:59 -0400 Subject: Things to do in Florida panhandle? In-Reply-To: <003801c92fe6$7385c560$0201a8c0@evan> References: <003801c92fe6$7385c560$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <936575A5-DB9D-4FCA-AA49-C44C536423A3@neurotica.com> On Oct 16, 2008, at 7:25 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm making plans to be in the Florida panhandle on May 2nd next > year. (a > relative's college graduation). I will be staying in Fort Walton > Beach, > although I can get a rental car. Anything to do there for a vintage > computer geek like me? Or, anyone have a big collection there and > just want > to hang out? I'm a few hours south of there, near Sarasota. I've got a decent collection here which you're more than welcome to fondle, but otherwise, as far as I can tell, this area is a total technological wasteland. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 17 11:21:49 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:21:49 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2008, at 10:15 AM, Granz wrote: > I have most of the stuff to put together a System 3. I have the > card cage with the 21-slot motherboard and a bunch of cards. The > manuals I got with the system include the Cromix manual, I have > more than 1 64-K RAM card and at least one TPU, so I believe that > mine was a multi-user system. I would like to put this back to > near-original, but need a case and power supply. > > Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide > the +/- 8 and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day > of using a PC power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage > regulators to allow them to work at the +5V and +12V of the power > supply. In order to do that though, I would need a small (3-5 > slot) motherboard to test a couple of cards together. I don't think it's going to be possible to short around the +5 and +12 regulators in a PC power supply, as they're not discrete in that way. Your best bet (IMO) is to surf eBay for an big open-frame linear power supply. These are usually based on LM723 voltage regulators and 2N3055 (or similar) pass transistors, and it's easy to bridge around that sort of regulator. Otherwise you can just tweak the voltage upward to the 8/16 that you want using the adjustment variable resistor that's usually present in such power supplies. > If anyone has any of these available, I would be interested in > obtaining them. Sadly I do not, but... > I do not have much money, but do have some other old computer > stuff that I can trade: a VAX Station 2000, an old Sun workstation, > many, many old PC parts and systems, lots of electronic parts, What model of Sun? > lots of microcontroller stuff including several Dev Kits. I'm definitely interested in that stuff, if I have anything else you may be looking for. What sort of microcontrollers and dev kits? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 17 11:23:42 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <26c11a640810170753r69d1112fnc875f85e88d5644e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200810171623.m9HGNgAU030912@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Is it a SunBlade 1000 by any chance? If so you'd better have a good A/C in > > the room. :-( I've only been able to run mine in the dead of winter when I > > could open the door and let cool air in. > > > > Zane > > > > > > -- > No it's a 2000. It's a lot bigger, noiser and heavier then I was > expecting. I was thinking it was just a tower machine. I didn't > realise the depth of it. > Any idea how well these run with Solaris 10, do you know if it would > run any quicker with 8 or 9. OK, I'm not sure but I think the 2000 is probably about as hot as the 1000, as it is basically the same system, and I believe the 900Mhz CPU's are the same part (I have dual 750Mhz CPU's in my 1000). I don't consider my 1000 to be noisy, but it is BIG and HEAVY! In some ways I regret retiring my dual 450Mhz Ultra 60, but the dual 750's with 4GB RAM make for a nicer machine. I run mine with Solaris 10, but I tend to run CDE rather than the Gnome based desktop as the Gnome desktop seems sluggish. The sad thing is, since it runs so hot, the main thing I've used my system for is to low-level format SCA SCSI HD's (in an external JBOD) prior to installing the drives in my OpenVMS system. I'd really like to upgrade to a nice Sun Ultra 24 system, but can't justify the expense (a Mac Pro would make more sense for me). Zane From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 17 11:50:10 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:50:10 -0400 Subject: Q on 3.5" Sony floppy drive Message-ID: <48F8C242.9090709@hawkmountain.net> I have MP-F17W-50L I've tried to use this on a PC (long time ago), and it wouldn't work. It came out of Codex equipment... Unsure if there is just some magic jumpers required, or this was custom made for Codex. So, anyone know anything about that model drive ? -- Curt From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Oct 17 11:54:30 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:54:30 -0500 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <200810171623.m9HGNgAU030912@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200810171623.m9HGNgAU030912@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <48F8C346.7030105@pacbell.net> Say, Can anybody tell me how to subscribe to the classic computer list? I don't know how it happened, but I accidentally got subscribed to this unix/solaris/linux list. Thanks a bunch. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 17 13:24:34 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F898F4.6090706@gmail.com> References: <20081016143058.V74632@shell.lmi.net> <48F898F4.6090706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081017105539.X26997@shell.lmi.net> > > PUBLIC definitions would only include those machines that were in such > > massive production that it was the first one that that writer was > > cognizant of. But the REAL first one was the prototype in my uncle's > > basement that never went into production, and that nobody knows about. On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Spot-on. Inventions normally stem from someone hacking away in a corner; it > takes marketing and a fair amount of polishing to make a product and bring it > to peoples' attention, but the way I see it the hacked prototype still does > what it does 'first'. Yes. That is the funadmental flaw in any discussion of "first". Occasionally, there will be some sort of official recognition of which is "first" - but ask Elisha Gray about the telephone patent! Authoritative determination of "first" is quite difficult, and is sabotaged by marketing. Does anybody believe that the "Sleep Number bed" was the "FIRST bed design to ever take into account personal comfort"? And, without publicity of "first"s, the discussion will ALWAYS be towards the one that achieved public notice, NOT the one that was earlier. Many writers in the industry will dismiss anything that came before they got involved. Hence, we get Cringely type "history" that ignores CP/M and asserts that the history of the "computer" (sic: not "microcomputer) was Apple -> IBM. And if you ask the general public, or "industry experts" about Processor Technology, Northstar (some sort of drivetrain package for Cadillac?), or even Morrow, . . . > > Oh, you meant a computer with a screen showing "point addressable" > > pixels! > Heh. Define 'point' of course - but even a point on a colour CRT is made from > three entities, so why can a 'point' not also be a more complicated pattern > (such as a character cell)? Murky waters indeed. What is the difference between a "pel" and a "pixel"? , other than IBM's desire to avoid something that sounds like "pixie", and their refusal to use "motherboard" due to the Black Panthers. Color displays are made up of discrete dots that are red, green, and blue. if the computer is closely matched and linked with the display, then each pixel contains one red, one green, and one blue dot. And, unless the computer attempts to exceed the capabilities of the display (ah, such wondrous artifacts!), every pixel is a block of many of those RGB dots. Hence, "ALL" computer graphic displays are BLOCK graphics, and any torturous stretch of the definition to differentiate whether or not those blocks are the size of complete character positions is mostly useless, tangential and nitpicky. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 17 13:50:34 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:50:34 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <20081017150348.994D356F85@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20081017150348.994D356F85@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <48F8DE7A.6060505@brouhaha.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > The Star Wars vector arcade game from 1983 is just beautiful IMHO.. :-) > Absolutely no jaggies at all! > That's true of many (but not all) the B&W vector games, such as Battlezone and Red Baron, but not of the color vector games. In the color vector games, the CRT itself introduces pixelization, because of the holes in the shadow mask and the discrete phosphor dots. The resolution isn't really all that great. There was a color vector display technology that didn't use a shadow mask or phosphor dots, but it was very uncommon. It used two layers of phosphor with different activation energies, and the high-voltage supply was actually switched between two voltages. The lower voltage only activated one phosphor, but the higer voltage activated both, so two different colors were available. This was used in the DEC VR20 monitor, of which few units were believed to have been sold. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 17 13:54:56 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:54:56 -0700 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <48F8C346.7030105@pacbell.net> References: <200810171623.m9HGNgAU030912@onyx.spiritone.com> <48F8C346.7030105@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <48F8DF80.1020906@brouhaha.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Can anybody tell me how to subscribe to the classic computer list? > I don't know how it happened, but I accidentally got subscribed to > this unix/solaris/linux list. It requires arcane rites involving ritual sacrifice. Make sure you have an elder sigil. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Oct 17 14:01:21 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (ethan.dicks at usap.gov) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:01:21 +0000 Subject: How to invoke the classiccmp aspect of the list (was Re: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop) In-Reply-To: <48F8DF80.1020906@brouhaha.com> References: <200810171623.m9HGNgAU030912@onyx.spiritone.com> <48F8C346.7030105@pacbell.net> <48F8DF80.1020906@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20081017190121.GC11910@usap.gov> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 11:54:56AM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: > >Can anybody tell me how to subscribe to the classic computer list? > >I don't know how it happened, but I accidentally got subscribed to > >this unix/solaris/linux list. > It requires arcane rites involving ritual sacrifice. Make sure you have > an elder sigil. Try sacrificing a blue-blue-blue resistor by overdriving it until the magic smoke is let out. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Oct-2008 at 18:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -51.7 F (-46.5 C) Windchill -79.1 F (-61.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.1 kts Grid 5 Barometer 677.3 mb (10730 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 14:05:52 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:05:52 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <20081017105539.X26997@shell.lmi.net> References: <20081016143058.V74632@shell.lmi.net> <48F898F4.6090706@gmail.com> <20081017105539.X26997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48F8E210.2040506@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Spot-on. Inventions normally stem from someone hacking away in a corner; it >> takes marketing and a fair amount of polishing to make a product and bring it >> to peoples' attention, but the way I see it the hacked prototype still does >> what it does 'first'. > > Yes. That is the funadmental flaw in any discussion of "first". > Occasionally, there will be some sort of official recognition of which is > "first" - but ask Elisha Gray about the telephone patent! The actual 'invention of the telephone' entry makes pretty interesting reading, and thankfully doesn't take the easy way out and credit everything to Bell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_telephone (I suspect the entry for the lightbulb is similarly convoluted!) > And, without publicity of "first"s, the discussion will ALWAYS be towards > the one that achieved public notice, NOT the one that was earlier. Many > writers in the industry will dismiss anything that came before they got > involved. Not only that, but after the fact no amount of evidence to change peoples' minds seems to do any good - they either outright don't believe, or they'll put endless provisos on their definition or order to come up with the same answer that's already been published. (I find these 'first' discussions completely fascinating - just when you think you know all there is to know, someone always seems to come up with something that nobody's yet mentioned) > Color displays are made up of discrete dots that are red, green, and blue. > if the computer is closely matched and linked with the display, then each > pixel contains one red, one green, and one blue dot. And, unless the > computer attempts to exceed the capabilities of the display (ah, such > wondrous artifacts!), every pixel is a block of many of those RGB dots. It might be possible to argue that a 'block' is a rectangular shape, I suppose - maybe within a CRT context we should be talking about triad graphics :-) To Richard: I bet all you can do is trawl physical Whirlwind archives - papers, (dated) photographs etc. and you might come across evidence to satisfy your curiosity (and I'm curious, too). I bet there are answers lurking there that haven't been scanned in, published in books, or exist sufficiently in the public conscious for someone on this list to be able to give a definite anwser :-( From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 17 14:40:37 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:40:37 -0700 Subject: A classic tale: looking for bits Message-ID: Not too long ago I scored a DEC VSXXX-AB graphics tablet on eBay, but after I'd put in the bid I realized I'd forgotten to verify that it came with the stylus and/or puck. Needless to say, it didn't. So now I'm looking for one, the other, or preferably both, preferably not too costly (I want to hook this up to my own DECstation 5000 at home). Anyone have such a thing rattling about in a drawer? Thanks - Ian UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Vintage Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. http://www.pdpplanet.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 17 14:13:04 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:13:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <48F74A8C.7080606@iais.fraunhofer.de> from "Holger Veit" at Oct 16, 8 04:07:08 pm Message-ID: > > Well, it's what it _should_ be. Mind you, millifarad is not a > > commonly-used unit for some unknown reason (I routinely see capacitors > > marked 100000uF rather than 100mF or even 0.1F), although i have seen it > > used in, I think, an HP manual > > mF has been uncommon because with the exception of gold caps, you rarely > find capacitors with such large capacity, and in common circuits, you > won't need these sizes. For the traditional power supply, I have > seldomly used larger caps than 10000uF; if one needed more, it is more 10000uF = 10mF, of course. And 1000uF (a very common value) = 1mF. But for some reason they're rarely written that way. > likely the wrong design has been chosen. I've seen values up to around 100000uF in classic computer supplies. > >>> 2200nF (==2.2uF) would be possible, but it's a very odd way to write it. > >> Yes. This was also written in the 1970s, so I'm trying historical > >> interpretation as well as what's obviously written. > > > > nF was common in Europe in the 70's, much less common in the States, I think. > > Please don't speak for Europe when talking about GB. In Germany, pF, nF, > and uF are still common nowadays, and everyone uses them where I think you have misuderstood what I wrote. THe reason I mentioned the 1970's was that the OP believed the circuit dated from then. At that time, the use of the unit 'nF' was common in many European countries (including the UK), but was much less common in the US. I made the comment as a justification for why I didn't believe the value was a typo for nF (it was a US schematic from a time when that unit was not commonly used in the States). I made no comment as to what units were used in the UK and other countires in 2008 However, I believe it's much the same today. Certainly 'nF' is commonly used in the UK (and other European countries), I beleive it's a lot less common in the States. Another convention that's common in the UK, and I beleive other European contries, is to use the 'multiplier prefix' in place of the decimal point when writing the value. For example, rather than writing 4.7nF, you write 4n7 (the fact that it's a cpaacitor pretty much means the value will be some number of farads). 'R' is used in place of ohms, so that a 5.6ohm resistor might be specified as 5R6. > > Am I the only person to remember the millimicron as an equivalent for nm > > when talking about optical wavelengths, etc? > > Reminds me of describing speeds as angstrom per fortnight. Infact, 'Furlongs per fortnight', please :-) Or, of course, the infamous 'attoparsec per microfortnight', which is close to the 'inch per second' and is thus useful for measuring tape speeds :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 17 14:15:01 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:15:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 16, 8 03:46:30 pm Message-ID: > I would be very interested to see a dump of the EPROMs, if you ever > get a round tuit. I am sure I have them dumped, but the total is pretty large. Can you cope with 1Mbyte+ e-mails? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 17 14:27:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:27:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 16, 8 03:49:55 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > Characters are not pixels, so no, I'm not setting a constraing on the > > > > 'Pixel' == Picture Element, I beleive. Idon't see why a 'block graphics > > character' can't be an element of a picture. > > The reason you don't see it is because you are torturing the > definitions in order to come up with some crazy example. > > Characters are not pixels because you don't send characters to the > CRT. Eventually characters are turned into a bitmap pattern of pixels Actually, I believe there was a CRT-like device (I forget the name -- 'Charactertron'?) where you did sort-of send the characters to the CRT. THe CRT had 3 deflection systems and an electode between them that cotnained the patterns for all the xymbols (characters, etc) that the device could display. You used the rearmost deflection system to direct the beam from the electron gun at the right pattern and the front deflection system to put it at the right place on the screen. No, I don;t have one. > and *that* is what is sent to the CRT. That's why pixels are picture And I don't send the bitmap directly to the CRT either. Typically you take the bitmap from the memory, extract the approprtiate number of bits (I assume you allow more than 1 bit/pixel), process those in some way (perhaps by feeding them itno a colour lookup table, then to a DAC), and only then feed them to the video amplifiers nad then to the CRT. > elements, but characters are not. I can't believe I have to explain > this basic element of digital video scanout to you Tony, I know for a > fact you've delved into the circuitry of these kinds of subsystems > often enough to know exactly the difference between a character and a > pixel and why they are not the same. My problem is that I've worked on plenty of things that fit _neither_ definition, and I want to know if oyu consider them to be graphics displays or not. Apart from the obvious vector displays (which you seem to ignore, for all the 1950's grpahics displays are very likely to be of this type since memory was expensive -- very -- back then), what about : 1)_ The DEC 'waveform generator' grapghics in the VT55 and VT105 (amongst others). It had a fairly high resolution and limited memory, but you could only display 2 points in each vertical column (or, IIRC, all the points below the specified one in that column). It was thus useless for displaying bitmapped images, but ideal for the intended application which was displaying mathematical function grapbs and histograms. 2) A design that can either be bitmapped or character based without changing the hardware. This was certainly used commercially in machines like the Sirius (victor 9000) and Apricot. Let me explain how it works. You have the conventional scan counters addressing 2K (or so) of 16 bit memory, as in a character display. But 11 bits of of that 16 bit value are used to address a programmable 'character generator' memory, the output of which is serialised, combined with attributes (blinking, etc) determined by the remaining 5 bits of the 16 bit 'character') and sent to the CRT. Now, the point is that 11 bits is enough to have a different 'character pattern' at each location on the screen. So you can use it in one of 2 ways : a) As a character based display. Store the patterns for the ASCII (or whatever) character in the second area of memory, store the character codes yoy want to display in the first area. b) as a bitmapped display. Initialise the first area of memory with a difference code at each location, and then set/reset bits in the second are to turn individual pixels on or off. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 17 14:31:40 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:31:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 16, 8 04:07:07 pm Message-ID: > > > In article <20081016143058.V74632 at shell.lmi.net>, > Fred Cisin writes: > > > Which is MUCH more fun. > > ...for one person had at the expense of many subscribers. > > Honestly I don't know what it is about email that makes people think > its fun to be an asshole. Actually, with the exception of the Jacquard loom (which I would argue is controlled by a sequencer and not a computer, since it doesn't have any read/write storage for variables or conditional branching', I've found the other answers to be interesting and sensible. Certianly things have been menitoned that i'd not really heard of before. And yes, I tend to be pedantic, both in e-mail and face-to-face. Before trying to answer a question (or solve a problem, or whatever), I like to be sure I know exactly what is being asked. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 17 14:42:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:42:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Q on 3.5" Sony floppy drive In-Reply-To: <48F8C242.9090709@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at Oct 17, 8 12:50:10 pm Message-ID: > > > I have MP-F17W-50L > > I've tried to use this on a PC (long time ago), and it wouldn't work. IU assume it therefore has PC-like connectors (34 pin data, 4 pin power). This is not always the case with old Sony drives, the earlier ones have a 26 pin data connector (along with a normal 4 pin power connecotr), I've also worked on ones with a 34 pin combined pwoer and data connector. Is there a visible number -- it'll start with 'FC' on the PCB? When you say 'it wouldn't work', did it do anything?Would the spindle motor start? The heads move? Some of the Sony drives turned at 600 rpm (not the nromal 300 rpm of PC drives). Having got the right equipment here, I'd stick it on an excerciser and measure the frequency of the index pulses. But I guess you don't have the stuff to do that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 17 15:38:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:38:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F8DE7A.6060505@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 17, 8 11:50:34 am Message-ID: > That's true of many (but not all) the B&W vector games, such as > Battlezone and Red Baron, but not of the color vector games. In the > color vector games, the CRT itself introduces pixelization, because of > the holes in the shadow mask and the discrete phosphor dots. The > resolution isn't really all that great. Did anyone try using 3 monochrome CRTs and combining the outputs optically (e.g. by back projectuion)? That would get round the need for a shadowmask (The reverse, splitting up the image into primary colours using dichroic prisms and imaging the result with 3 vidicon tubes, was not uncommon in colour video cameras at one time). > > There was a color vector display technology that didn't use a shadow > mask or phosphor dots, but it was very uncommon. It used two layers of > phosphor with different activation energies, and the high-voltage supply > was actually switched between two voltages. The lower voltage only > activated one phosphor, but the higer voltage activated both, so two > different colors were available. This was used in the DEC VR20 monitor, > of which few units were believed to have been sold. I haev an HP1350 'graphics translator' here -- it's an HPIB input vector display generator. The manual mentions an HP colour vector monitor for this unit, which would appear to work as you described, alas I've never seen one (I have the HP1311 monochrome monitor only). I cna dig out the model number if anyone wants to look for one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 17 15:40:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:40:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to invoke the classiccmp aspect of the list (was Re: Sparc In-Reply-To: <20081017190121.GC11910@usap.gov> from "ethan.dicks@usap.gov" at Oct 17, 8 07:01:21 pm Message-ID: > > It requires arcane rites involving ritual sacrifice. Make sure you have > > an elder sigil. > > Try sacrificing a blue-blue-blue resistor by overdriving it until the > magic smoke is let out. 66 Megohms? I think yoy're likely to exceed the voltaeg rating and cause flashover long before it burns out by dissipating too much power. Might I suggest a blue-blue-blue-black-brown one, if you can find it? (666 Ohms 1%). That'll be easier to find, easier to burn out, and probably more effective. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 15:49:09 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:49:09 -0400 Subject: Interesting X terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F8FA45.3080602@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I would be very interested to see a dump of the EPROMs, if you ever >> get a round tuit. > > I am sure I have them dumped, but the total is pretty large. Can you cope > with 1Mbyte+ e-mails? If not, you're welcome to drop them on my web server. Peace... Sridhar From db at db.net Fri Oct 17 16:16:08 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:16:08 -0400 Subject: How to invoke the classiccmp aspect of the list (was Re: Sparc In-Reply-To: References: <20081017190121.GC11910@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20081017211608.GA28931@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 09:40:48PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It requires arcane rites involving ritual sacrifice. Make sure you have > > > an elder sigil. ... > > Might I suggest a blue-blue-blue-black-brown one, if you can find it? > (666 Ohms 1%). That'll be easier to find, easier to burn out, and > probably more effective. And a lot of fun with some wax capacitors^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcandles. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 17 16:23:26 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081017142129.T40527@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > Did anyone try using 3 monochrome CRTs and combining the outputs > optically (e.g. by back projectuion)? That would get round the need for a > shadowmask In the 1970s, there were some projection TVs that had three CRTs. Convergence/alignment needed to be adjusted any time the set was moved. From rickb at bensene.com Fri Oct 17 16:34:16 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:34:16 -0700 Subject: DEC OMNIBUS Signal Definitions In-Reply-To: <20081017142129.T40527@shell.lmi.net> References: <20081017142129.T40527@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi, everyone, I'm looking for a reference document that defines the functions of the various signals on the DEC PDP 8/e/f/m Omnibus. In Volume 1 of the Maintenance Manual, there is an Omnibus locator that gives the names of the various signals and which pin on the backplane each function exists on, but there's nothing that I can find that gives the function definition of each of the signals. The information is buried in the test of the processor description, but there doesn't seem to be a place that I can find that summarizes the information all in one place. I'm troubleshooting a DEC RK8E disk controller that causes problems on the Omnibus when the controller boardset is installed in an otherwise fully operational PDP 8/e, and knowing what the various bus signals do would make the task a whole lot easier. Does anyone know of a document like this? Rick Bensene From rivie at ridgenet.net Fri Oct 17 16:43:52 2008 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC OMNIBUS Signal Definitions In-Reply-To: References: <20081017142129.T40527@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Rick Bensene wrote: > I'm looking for a reference document that defines the functions of the > various signals on the DEC PDP 8/e/f/m Omnibus. [[[snip]]] > > Does anyone know of a document like this? As I recall, the Small Computer Handbook that includes the 8/e (I think mine is from 1973, but I don't have it handy at the moment) has a chapter on building Omnibus interfaces that describes the signals. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 17 16:57:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:57:34 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: <48F8DE7A.6060505@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 17, 8 11:50:34 am, Message-ID: <48F8A7DE.23628.66F9E90@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2008 at 21:38, Tony Duell wrote: > Did anyone try using 3 monochrome CRTs and combining the outputs > optically (e.g. by back projectuion)? That would get round the need for a > shadowmask As Fred mentioned, projection TVs (I still see them), but convergence was a headache. The fewer optics, the better. Better to use field- sequential with a color wheel (as in the old CBS color TV system) as various computer-to-film systems did. If you've never seen one, the color on the old CBS system was quite good--far better than the RCA shadowmask tubes of the time. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 17 17:57:32 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:57:32 -0700 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F9185C.2070703@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I believe there was a CRT-like device (I forget the name -- > 'Charactertron'?) where you did sort-of send the characters to the CRT. > "Charactron" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charactron From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 17 18:50:18 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:50:18 -0600 Subject: Great day at Tek In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 17 Oct 2008 01:04:43 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Randy Dawson writes: > I went to the Tektronix surplus sale today for the first time. Wow! welcom= > e to Beaverton! Is this at the Tektronix facility, or just a local surplus sale with lots of Tek gear? > I want a Ardent or Stellar or Stardent if any body finds one being dumped. That makes at least three of us on this list... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 17 18:52:18 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:52:18 -0600 Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:15:01 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > I would be very interested to see a dump of the EPROMs, if you ever > > get a round tuit. > > I am sure I have them dumped, but the total is pretty large. Can you cope > with 1Mbyte+ e-mails? Yes, I can. I can also provide an FTP dropoff if that's easier for you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 17 18:53:31 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:53:31 -0600 Subject: L&S 7105 Color Terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:08:04 -0500. <51ea77730810162008p74ad03d6tf3051b42c2f2cb70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730810162008p74ad03d6tf3051b42c2f2cb70 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Richard wrote: > > What's the manufacturing date? > > No evidence of a date on the unit itself, but the manual says "June > 1985." Also of note, it is compatible to the Tek 4014's graphics > language. Yep. Just like VT100 set the standard for escape sequences for text terminals, the 4010 set the standard for escape sequences for graphics terminals. Hell, even xterm has 4010 support! Pretty much any terminal that did graphics until X terminals did 4010 support of some sort. Even later Tektronix terminals (including the raster ones) all have 4010 support. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 19:00:14 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:00:14 -0500 Subject: L&S 7105 Color Terminal In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730810162008p74ad03d6tf3051b42c2f2cb70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730810171700o7616c1ado91ec2c7134dc67e4@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Richard wrote: > Yep. Just like VT100 set the standard for escape sequences for text > terminals, the 4010 set the standard for escape sequences for graphics > terminals. Hell, even xterm has 4010 support! Pretty much any terminal > that did graphics until X terminals did 4010 support of some sort. Even > later Tektronix terminals (including the raster ones) all have 4010 > support. Well then, that sounds like I have half a chance of getting some gfx to display on this term then. Would it just be a matter of dumping a file with the appropriate escapes codes (and of course gfx data) over the serial line? Or can I expect to find a terminal driver in Linux or Solaris for it? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 17 19:07:52 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great day at Tek In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200810180007.m9I07quN016601@onyx.spiritone.com> > Randy Dawson writes: > > > I went to the Tektronix surplus sale today for the first time. Wow! welcom= > > e to Beaverton! > > Is this at the Tektronix facility, or just a local surplus sale with lots > of Tek gear? I assume he means the "Tek Country Store" which has operated in various locations since at least the early 70's. Last I heard it is somewhere on the Beaverton Tek Campus (is that the only one left?), and is only open once a month. I for one would love to know the current info on it. Zane From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 17 19:52:19 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:52:19 -0400 Subject: Q on 3.5" Sony floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F93343.70202@hawkmountain.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I have MP-F17W-50L >> >> I've tried to use this on a PC (long time ago), and it wouldn't work. >> > > IU assume it therefore has PC-like connectors (34 pin data, 4 pin power). > This is not always the case with old Sony drives, the earlier ones have a > 26 pin data connector (along with a normal 4 pin power connecotr), I've > also worked on ones with a 34 pin combined pwoer and data connector > 34 pin connector, 4 pin power. > Is there a visible number -- it'll start with 'FC' on the PCB? > > There are 2 PCBs... soldered together. One for motor (primarily), and one 'interface'. The interface has 1-627-945-12 and LG-13 on it. > When you say 'it wouldn't work', did it do anything?Would the spindle > motor start? The heads move? > PC didn't see it... no activity. It has been a long time though. The person who got them worked at Codex. He brought back the schematic of the floppy interface of the device. We compared that up and there seemed to be some differences. We tried making an 'adapter' cable... but had no luck either. At the time though we were pretty novice in that area.... I have 4 of these and if they can be used I'd prefer not to toss 'em. Seem like nice quality. -- Curt > Some of the Sony drives turned at 600 rpm (not the nromal 300 rpm of PC > drives). Having got the right equipment here, I'd stick it on an > excerciser and measure the frequency of the index pulses. But I guess you > don't have the stuff to do that. > > -tony > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 17 19:49:27 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:49:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Computer Quiz Message-ID: <397135.23679.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Here's a short (10 question) 'old computer quiz'. It'll probably only be up for a week or so, but should be in the quiz archives after that. Admittedly, the last 3 questions are rather modern, but fit within the 10 year rule (except possibly Q10). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7671677.stm For the record I failed the 1st question which I know I should have got after the recent discussion on Space War. I scored 8 out of 10, though with some questions only having 2 answers it's a bit 50:50! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 17 20:01:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:01:40 -0700 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <48F8D304.24365.71826F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2008 at 12:21, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide > > the +/- 8 and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day > > of using a PC power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage > > regulators to allow them to work at the +5V and +12V of the power > > supply. In order to do that though, I would need a small (3-5 > > slot) motherboard to test a couple of cards together. > > I don't think it's going to be possible to short around the +5 and > +12 regulators in a PC power supply, as they're not discrete in that > way. Your best bet (IMO) is to surf eBay for an big open-frame > linear power supply. Brute-force linear is definitely the way to go. I'd be tempted to grab a couple of filament transformers, a couple of bridge rectifiers and some big caps. The great thing about S100 power supplies is that PSU regulation isn't important. A 6.3VAC filament transformer hooked through a bridge rectifier and a big electrolytic should be close enough. +/-16 could be furnished by a small 12.6v transformer. The real job of regulation is furnished on each board (usually something like 78xx 79xx linear regulator ICs). Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 17 21:52:48 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:52:48 -0600 Subject: L&S 7105 Color Terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:00:14 -0500. <51ea77730810171700o7616c1ado91ec2c7134dc67e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730810171700o7616c1ado91ec2c7134dc67e4 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Richard wrote: > > Yep. Just like VT100 set the standard for escape sequences for text > > terminals, the 4010 set the standard for escape sequences for graphics > > terminals. [...] > > Well then, that sounds like I have half a chance of getting some gfx > to display on this term then. Oh, it should be trivial to display 4010 style graphics on it. This is vector move/draw style graphics and not pixel oriented operations. It would not be surprising to find that if you want to manipulate the frame buffer directly (set pixel, get pixel, etc.) that you have to use L&S 7105 specific escape sequences. > Would it just be a matter of dumping a > file with the appropriate escapes codes (and of course gfx data) over > the serial line? Or can I expect to find a terminal driver in Linux > or Solaris for it? Its just a matter of dumping the right escape codes over the serial line to the terminal. The 4010 escape codes are well documented if you want to write your own software. If you have a typical *nix distribution, try looking at the gnu plot command with the "tek" terminal type and the program tek2plot which can convert Tektronix escape sequences to a raster image like PNG. 4010 User's Manual: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 17 22:15:14 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:15:14 -0700 Subject: Old Computer Quiz In-Reply-To: <397135.23679.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <397135.23679.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48F8F252.6130.7926E33@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2008 at 0:49, Andrew Burton wrote: > Here's a short (10 question) 'old computer quiz'. It'll probably only be up for a week or so, but should be in the quiz archives after that. > Admittedly, the last 3 questions are rather modern, but fit within the 10 year rule (except possibly Q10). > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7671677.stm I missed 2 on the game console stuff (I don't do games), not bad, considering how UK-centric the questions were. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Oct 17 23:21:32 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:21:32 -0400 Subject: How to invoke the classiccmp aspect of the list (was Re: Sparc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810180021.32929.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 17 October 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It requires arcane rites involving ritual sacrifice. Make sure > > > you have an elder sigil. > > > > Try sacrificing a blue-blue-blue resistor by overdriving it until > > the magic smoke is let out. > > 66 Megohms? I think yoy're likely to exceed the voltaeg rating and > cause flashover long before it burns out by dissipating too much > power. Really? If my calculations are correct :), a 1/2 W resistor is would only need to be just under 6000V to exceed the wattage rating, and I think would be physically large enough to avoid flash-over in dry air (30V per mil works out to 0.2in of gap at 6000V). A small neon sign transformer should do the trick... Based on the my recollection of the common size of 1/2 W resistors, (~1cm), you should be able to go up to 10kV or so, giving you 1.5W, and a good margin to help burn out the resistor, in dry air. In any case, you should be able to increase the gap between the leads (and voltage rating) of the resistor by encasing it in paraffin or epoxy. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 17 23:33:17 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INS2651 uses Message-ID: I have a sparsely-populated S100 board carrying an INS2651 chip and a 50-pin header. There's little other clue as to the function of this board. I'm guessing it's a floppy drive interface of some sort, but the maker and model have me guessing. I've never heard of "Alloy Eng. C.P.D.". What appears to be a model number is "DWG NO. 100055 REV. H". Does anyone know anything helpful about this? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 17 23:47:21 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:47:21 -0700 Subject: Old Computer Quiz In-Reply-To: <397135.23679.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <397135.23679.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I got 7 out of 10 - thanks in part to those 'questionable' units. :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Burton [aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 5:49 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Old Computer Quiz Here's a short (10 question) 'old computer quiz'. It'll probably only be up for a week or so, but should be in the quiz archives after that. Admittedly, the last 3 questions are rather modern, but fit within the 10 year rule (except possibly Q10). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7671677.stm For the record I failed the 1st question which I know I should have got after the recent discussion on Space War. I scored 8 out of 10, though with some questions only having 2 answers it's a bit 50:50! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 18 00:02:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:02:33 -0700 Subject: INS2651 uses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F90B79.1932.7F4AD17@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2008 at 21:33, David Griffith wrote: > > I have a sparsely-populated S100 board carrying an INS2651 chip and a > 50-pin header. There's little other clue as to the function of this > board. I'm guessing it's a floppy drive interface of some sort, but the > maker and model have me guessing. I've never heard of "Alloy Eng. > C.P.D.". What appears to be a model number is "DWG NO. 100055 REV. H". > Does anyone know anything helpful about this? Alloy Engineering was mostly know for its tape backup systems. Since the 2651 is a USART, I suspect that this is what your board was used for--probably an early QIC system. December 1980, IEEE Computer shows a model DS-100 controller for S-100, driving a 17.4 MB 1/4" cartridge drive. Is this the widget? http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/alloy%20engineering/photos/Alloy%2 0unknown.jpg See the "DS-100" at the top? Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 18 00:14:33 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INS2651 uses In-Reply-To: <48F90B79.1932.7F4AD17@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48F90B79.1932.7F4AD17@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Oct 2008 at 21:33, David Griffith wrote: > > > I have a sparsely-populated S100 board carrying an INS2651 chip and a > > 50-pin header. There's little other clue as to the function of this > > board. I'm guessing it's a floppy drive interface of some sort, but the > > maker and model have me guessing. I've never heard of "Alloy Eng. > > C.P.D.". What appears to be a model number is "DWG NO. 100055 REV. H". > > Does anyone know anything helpful about this? > > Alloy Engineering was mostly know for its tape backup systems. Since > the 2651 is a USART, I suspect that this is what your board was used > for--probably an early QIC system. December 1980, IEEE Computer > shows a model DS-100 controller for S-100, driving a 17.4 MB 1/4" > cartridge drive. > > Is this the widget? > > http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/alloy%20engineering/photos/Alloy%2 > 0unknown.jpg > > See the "DS-100" at the top? Ah, yes. That's exactly what I have. How common are the tape drive it's supposed to go with? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 00:15:20 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:15:20 -0700 Subject: PDX surplus stores was: Great day at Tek Message-ID: > I assume he means the "Tek Country Store" which has operated in various > locations since at least the early 70's. Last I heard it is somewhere on > the Beaverton Tek Campus (is that the only one left?), and is only open once > a month. I for one would love to know the current info on it. It is the Tektronix surplus store, generally selling surplus of what they use not what they make. Sounds like I have to go back also. I used to enjoy the store, the wait before the door opens, the polite run and exploring the stuff. A quick google search brought up this on the Portland robotics web site. Tektronix Country Store Beaverton Campus Building 38 Loading Dock (East side of building). 503-627-6769 Public Hours: 1st and 3rd Thursday of the month from 2-4pm www.tek.com/ir/bv_map.html People start lining up before opening to get the best stuff (including the commercial surplus store owners). Now including Tek equipment for sale, too! When I did it I was one of those commercial surplus store owners..........And they mention test equipment has been added. Another store on the Robotics list is: SurplusGizmos 5797 NW Cornelius Pass Road Hillsboro Oregon 97124 Warehouse: 503-439-1249 Mobile: 503-345-9187 Hours: Wednesday and Friday 11am to 6pm Saturday 11am to 5pm surplusgizmos.com Surplus stuff with an online store. Anyone been there? I have yet to make it. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 18 00:46:44 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:46:44 -0500 Subject: PDX surplus stores was: Great day at Tek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:15:20 -0700 > From: innfoclassics at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDX surplus stores was: Great day at Tek > > > I assume he means the "Tek Country Store" which has operated in various > > locations since at least the early 70's. Last I heard it is somewhere on > > the Beaverton Tek Campus (is that the only one left?), and is only open once > > a month. I for one would love to know the current info on it. > > > It is the Tektronix surplus store, generally selling surplus of what > they use not what they make. > > Sounds like I have to go back also. I used to enjoy the store, the > wait before the door opens, the polite run and exploring the stuff. > > A quick google search brought up this on the Portland robotics web site. > > Tektronix Country Store > Beaverton Campus Building 38 Loading Dock (East side of building). > 503-627-6769 > Public Hours: 1st and 3rd Thursday of the month from 2-4pm > www.tek.com/ir/bv_map.html > > People start lining up before opening to get the best stuff (including > the commercial surplus store owners). Now including Tek equipment for > sale, too! > > When I did it I was one of those commercial surplus store > owners..........And they mention test equipment has been added. > > Another store on the Robotics list is: > > SurplusGizmos > 5797 NW Cornelius Pass Road > Hillsboro Oregon 97124 > Warehouse: 503-439-1249 > Mobile: 503-345-9187 > > Hours: > Wednesday and Friday 11am to 6pm > Saturday 11am to 5pm > surplusgizmos.com > > Surplus stuff with an online store. > > Anyone been there? I have yet to make it. > > Paxton > > > > > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA Yea I visited Surplus Gizmos too, last week. Good prices, lots of weird and vintage testgear. Lots of components Great robotics and positioner stuff, complete stepper assemblies from the fabs (presumably intel) I found an un released P4 motherboard, Intel Engineering sample, in the box with all the docs and CD Bought a Toshiba Microcontroller Eval Kit, including IAR C compiler and CMX realtime kernel for $20 Old databooks, tech books were $1. I got Packet Video Modeling and Signal Processing, and the old GE Transistor manual Theres a plug in area, to test stuff before you buy Tons and tons of scrap PCB's, motherboards $1 each Some kid stuff, comercial science toys and tools, robotic kits. I recommend a stop in, it was fun. For books, and a nice display of old PC's including an IMSAI, TRS-80, Comodore and a homebrew, dont forget Powells Tech Books downtown. They have all these museum pieces in a window display, and the shelves underneath are loaded with old homebrew style microprossessor boooks (Zaks chips to systems, The Z-80 cookbook etc.) Hundreds of mixed titles. most 2-10 dollars. Randy Dawson _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 18 00:56:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:56:29 -0700 Subject: INS2651 uses In-Reply-To: References: , <48F90B79.1932.7F4AD17@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <48F9181D.6533.8260F7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2008 at 22:14, David Griffith wrote: > Ah, yes. That's exactly what I have. How common are the tape drive it's > supposed to go with? This is all guesswork, but it's probably a QIC-36 interface. The thing is still listed on media selection sales lists as taking DC300XL tapes--very likely a Wangtek 5000E. Herb Johnson claims to have a manual for the Alloy unit, so you might ask him about it. Software, on the other hand, may be a bit difficult to come by. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 18 00:50:22 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 01:50:22 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System Message-ID: <01C930C4.6DBB8960@host-208-72-122-38.dyn.295.ca> ----------Original Message: Message: 28 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:01:40 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System On 17 Oct 2008 at 12:21, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide > > the +/- 8 and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day > > of using a PC power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage > > regulators to allow them to work at the +5V and +12V of the power > > supply. In order to do that though, I would need a small (3-5 > > slot) motherboard to test a couple of cards together. > > I don't think it's going to be possible to short around the +5 and > +12 regulators in a PC power supply, as they're not discrete in that > way. Your best bet (IMO) is to surf eBay for an big open-frame > linear power supply. Brute-force linear is definitely the way to go. I'd be tempted to grab a couple of filament transformers, a couple of bridge rectifiers and some big caps. The great thing about S100 power supplies is that PSU regulation isn't important. A 6.3VAC filament transformer hooked through a bridge rectifier and a big electrolytic should be close enough. +/-16 could be furnished by a small 12.6v transformer. The real job of regulation is furnished on each board (usually something like 78xx 79xx linear regulator ICs). Cheers, Chuck -------------- -----------------Reply: A misunderstanding, I think: he's talking about shorting out the regulators on the *cards*, not in the PSU, and running regulated +5 & +/-12 on the bus; should be doable with a heavy enough bus and sufficient bypassing, in fact I think some manufacturers did indeed do just that. I have a Cromemco PSU BTW, but probably not worth shipping. mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 18 01:35:16 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:35:16 -0700 Subject: PDX surplus stores was: Great day at Tek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:15 PM -0700 10/17/08, Paxton Hoag wrote: >When I did it I was one of those commercial surplus store >owners..........And they mention test equipment has been added. Back when it was employee's only (which ended in the 80's I believe) old Tek equipment was commonplace. >SurplusGizmos >5797 NW Cornelius Pass Road >Hillsboro Oregon 97124 >Warehouse: 503-439-1249 >Mobile: 503-345-9187 > >Hours: >Wednesday and Friday 11am to 6pm >Saturday 11am to 5pm >surplusgizmos.com > >Surplus stuff with an online store. > >Anyone been there? I have yet to make it. I've been there once, back before they moved to this place, it was quite interesting. I've been meaning to check them out again, but haven't had the time. Does anyone know anything about "Computer Drive Connection" in Cornelius? Another place I've been meaning to check out for a few years. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From granz_consult at hotmail.com Fri Oct 17 09:15:03 2008 From: granz_consult at hotmail.com (Granz) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:15:03 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System Message-ID: I have most of the stuff to put together a System 3. I have the card cage with the 21-slot motherboard and a bunch of cards. The manuals I got with the system include the Cromix manual, I have more than 1 64-K RAM card and at least one TPU, so I believe that mine was a multi-user system. I would like to put this back to near-original, but need a case and power supply. Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide the +/- 8 and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day of using a PC power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage regulators to allow them to work at the +5V and +12V of the power supply. In order to do that though, I would need a small (3-5 slot) motherboard to test a couple of cards together. If anyone has any of these available, I would be interested in obtaining them. I do not have much money, but do have some other old computer stuff that I can trade: a VAX Station 2000, an old Sun workstation, many, many old PC parts and systems, lots of electronic parts, lots of microcontroller stuff including several Dev Kits. Also if anyone has done this before please let me know how it went. Thanks, Art From jefferwin at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 12:17:24 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:17:24 -0700 Subject: PLM/80 compiler docs Message-ID: <7c7c96a50810171017v4eab00behdcef64d9c3cd879c@mail.gmail.com> Love the old update letters. I was working for Intel in Oregon back then on the 380 and 310 RMX development systems. We never saw anything that went out to actual customers. The compiler cost $250? Wow. I appreciate the scanning of the docs. If you email me the actual docs I will get them up on the various archive sites as well. There could be other dinosaurs out there looking for it. I am able to compile and run PLM80 apps on my Imsai 8080 now, I am rewriting all of my floppy drive control stuff from asm80 to plm80 as we speak. I have forgotten how much easier PLM was from asm80! Thanks again for the info. Jeff Erwin > > > > > Sorry about using facts. ;) I was really trying to validate MY rusty > brain cells. One thing I do claim is a pretty good knowledge of > PL/M-80. In the old days I did many projects with PL/M-80 and some with > PL/M-51, and I think I still remember it. A couple of years ago I was > able to write a small program in PL/M-80 using one of my working MDS's > and get it to compile and run without opening the manual. > > > > The one thing that seems to have changed from V3 to V4 is the following > > statement: > > > > In V3: DECLARE HELLO DATA ('Hello world.'); > > in V4: DECLARE HELLO (*) BYTE DATA ('Hello world.'); > > > > There are other subtle changes I have found. I discovered these as I was > > using older PLM source code for CPM as a programming example, and certain > > constructs were being rejected by the V4 compiler. > > > > I could also just be screwing something up. I always reserve the right > to > > do that... > > > > I *was* wrong when I said that DATA was used to initialize a variable at > run time. The DATA construct puts the variable initialization into ROM > and therefore that variable can't be changed at runtime. It is fixed. > The "*" in the array length declaration is called "implicit array > length" and just means that the array is defined to be the length needed > to hold the contents that follow the word DATA in the declaration. > > That implicit (*) specifier was part of the syntax in the very first > version of PL/M-80 that ran on the MDS. It was NOT part of the syntax > for the original cross-compiler that was written in Fortran for mainframes. > > I have found all my PL/M-80 documentation and it is a treasure trove. I > have a short document from Intel that tells a programmer what has to be > changed in source code in order for a cross-compiler compliant program > to compile on the resident compiler. In that document it talks about > the implicit specifier. So that construct was in the very first > resident compiler (V1.0). > > In your example above, if the line you label V3 would actually compile > correctly in V3, then it was not documented to work that way. It may > have passed the compiler syntax check, but the manual never specified it > would. If the (*) was required for V4 to be happy, it was a case of the > compiler now enforcing what was *always* documented as the correct syntax. > > > > > > > >> I have the "ISIS-II PL/M-80 Compiler Operator's Manual", no. 9800300-04, > >> dated 3/82. It is the manual that was issued specifically for V4.0 of > >> the compiler. There are several "$" commands listed. All those "$" > >> commands are also listed in the V3.0/V3.1 version of that manual > >> (9800300C). > >> > > > > > > I have this for V3, I figured out the V4 compiler commands by going > through > > the PLM80 executable. V3 used the $P=1 construct, V4 used the > $CODE/$NOCODE > > constructs which were a lot clearer. The $P=1 model does not work with > the > > V4 compiler I have, the one with the overlays. > > > > $CODE and $NOCODE worked with V3.0 of the compiler. I have that in the > documentation and I remember it. It would force 8080 assembly language > equivalent to be placed into the listing file generated by the > compiler. The $P=1 directive is unfamiliar to me. It is not in the > manuals that I have and I don't remember it. Do you have an example of > that? What does it do? It must predate the V3 compiler. > > > > >> The Programming Manual did not change from V3.0 to V4.0. The language > >> was really the same. I programmed a lot in those days and I never had > >> to change anything moving from V3 to V4. > >> > > > > > > It would be interesting to look up the DATA syntax above in V3 and V4 and > > see what is confusing me. > > > There is no mention of DATA in the operators manual. And, as I said, > the syntax manual is the same. It didn't change from V3 to V4. > > > >> I think the main changes from 3 to 4 had to do with newer operating > >> system environments. Newer versions of ISIS-II could have more than the > >> four or six or seven disk drives by allowing networked drive assignments > >> up through :F9:. File names could be longer, as well. I think those > >> were some of the differences from V3.x to V4.0. But the language syntax > >> was the same. > >> > >> > >>>>> Specifically, I am in need of: > >>>>> > >>>>> 98-00268B plm 80 programming manual, V4 > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks. > >>>>> > >>>>> Jeff Erwin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > Can I offer to pay you for a copy of the two manuals you refer to above? > > > > Jeff Erwin > > > > > I will work on scanning these manuals. You don't have to pay me. It > won't happen right away, but I will do it. Watch for further updates! > > For now, here are a few interesting documents. > > http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehp41cx/PLM/V4_letter.jpg > > http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehp41cx/PLM/V4_dear_PLM_owner.jpg > > http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehp41cx/PLM/V4_dear_PLM_owner (2).jpg > > http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehp41cx/PLM/V4_update.jpg > > > Dave > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:05:23 -0500 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: Great day at Tek > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <48F89BA3.10803 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > I want a Ardent or Stellar or Stardent if any body finds one being > dumped. > > Someone contacted me early in the year about an Ardent going surplus in > Colorado, then the conversation went quiet on me :( I should do some more > digging on that one and see what happened to it. > > I still want a Tex XD88/30, should you see one at your surplus sales :-) > I'll > get my XD88/10 shipped here at some point, but I'd still like to mess > around > with the 24-bit version! > > cheers > > Jules > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:15:03 -0400 > From: "Granz" > Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have most of the stuff to put together a System 3. I have the card cage > with the 21-slot motherboard and a bunch of cards. The manuals I got with > the system include the Cromix manual, I have more than 1 64-K RAM card and > at least one TPU, so I believe that mine was a multi-user system. I would > like to put this back to near-original, but need a case and power supply. > > Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide the +/- 8 > and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day of using a PC > power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage regulators to allow them > to work at the +5V and +12V of the power supply. In order to do that > though, I would need a small (3-5 slot) motherboard to test a couple of > cards together. > > If anyone has any of these available, I would be interested in obtaining > them. I do not have much money, but do have some other old computer stuff > that I can trade: a VAX Station 2000, an old Sun workstation, many, many old > PC parts and systems, lots of electronic parts, lots of microcontroller > stuff including several Dev Kits. > > Also if anyone has done this before please let me know how it went. > > Thanks, > > Art > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:53:20 +0100 > From: "Dan Williams" > Subject: Re: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <26c11a640810170753r69d1112fnc875f85e88d5644e at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > 2008/10/16 Zane H. Healy : > > At 12:21 PM +0100 10/16/08, Dan Williams wrote: > >> > >> I have just bought a dual 900mhz Sparc machine with 2gb memory. for > >> ?130. I haven't got it yet. But I am quite sure it will be fast enough > >> to use as a desktop machine. Also should be fairly quick at compiling > >> bits and pieces. > > > > Is it a SunBlade 1000 by any chance? If so you'd better have a good A/C > in > > the room. :-( I've only been able to run mine in the dead of winter when > I > > could open the door and let cool air in. > > > > Zane > > > > > > -- > No it's a 2000. It's a lot bigger, noiser and heavier then I was > expecting. I was thinking it was just a tower machine. I didn't > realise the depth of it. > Any idea how well these run with Solaris 10, do you know if it would > run any quicker with 8 or 9. > > Dan > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:21:08 -0400 > From: "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." > Subject: 2 items for $5 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <48F8AD64.4060204 at hawkmountain.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > pick any two items and they are just $5 + actual shipping costs. > let me know ASAP if you want anything here, as this stuff will be > going to the trash by Sunday. > > If you are local to me, you can pick up anything on this list for > free.... but let me know ASAP so I can put it aside for you. > > > PCI RAID card, SCSI HVD (differential), for Alpha (so I'm told) > Sun 501-1720 SLC mainboard w/o NVRAM > Sun 501-1720 SLC mainboard (w (dead?) NVRAM) > 501-1840 Sbus expansion sbus card > Coleco ADAM setup manual > Artecon SmartBox adapter board (Artecon's version of sbus expansion) > Global Villiage teleport Platinum Fax Modem model A812 (for Mac) > Maxtor RXT-800S Magneto Optical drive (not tested (no media)) > Syquest SparQ 1.0GB internal drive (not tested (no media)) > Corporate Systems Center PCI DIFF SCSI card (HVD), for sparc ? > Compaq drive 'sled' for Pentium II (and III ?) generation > -- has the two purple tabs/levers on the left/right ediges > LaCie FM radio tuner for Macs (ADB) > Performance Technology PT-PCI450 SCSI 3 Ultra Wide Fast Diff (HVD) (Sun?) > 2 PCI FDDI cards > Olicom OC-3161 16 serial port ISA card (just ISA card) > 2 x 5G + 1 x 4G laptop hard drives (password locked?) > SyQuest EZ Drive 135M EZ135EXT,P/PORT parallel port drive untested > SyQuest SQ555 40M drive > Sun 501-1861 ELC board untested > Apple QuickTake Battery Charger KB-39PA (4xAA charger) > Sparcstation 20 hard drive 'carrier' > 1G SCA scsi drives > HP Deskjet 600Cse (needs new ink cartridge) > Compaq PS4000 Power supply compaq part number 270371-001 > HP C2490A 2G differential SCSI drives 3.5" HH (6 available) > Compaq LCD front panel for Proliant 6000 and others > Sealed Copy of PC Anywhere 9.0 > Sealed copy of McAfee VirusScan Security Suite (from the 90s) > > -- Curt > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:34:13 -0400 > From: "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." > Subject: FS: $5 + $10 items > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <48F8B075.7030702 at hawkmountain.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > $5 Items (plus actual ship, or you pick up in Sharon or Cambridge, MA) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > APEX Outlook EL-84DT (with the DT crossed out and SP handwritten) > - 8 port serial concentrator > > Indigo 2 audio module > - 2 available > > 4 x 8M 72 pin SIMMS for SGI with gold fingers > - 2 sets available > > DEC Turbo Channel PMAG A card > > HP Printer PAL (turns LJ III, III/D/P, 4, 4P/L/PLUS, 5P) into laser fax > machine > - new sealed in box > > 2G SCA SCSI drive > - multiple available > > 4G SCA SCSI drive > - multiple available > > Maxtor MXT1240S 50 pin 1.2 G SCSI drive (3.5" HH) > - these drives somtimes don't spin up on first power on > > SGI PM3 Indigo 2 CPU (200MHz 1M cache) > > > $10 Items (plus actual ship, or you pick up in Sharon or Cambridge, MA) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 9G SCA SCSI drive > - multiple available > > SPARCClassic, no HD, 6 x 501-1991 SIMMs > > Ultra 10 with 333MHz 2M cache CPU, no ram, no HD > > Mouse Systems PC Jr Mouse (optical, no pad (could use pad from Sun)) > > 3Com 3C597TX Fast Ethernet EISA (use on Indigo 2 for 100baseTX !) > > > > > Let me know if there is anything here you want.... before I scrap > some of it, ebay other bits, etc... > > -- Curt > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Re: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <200810171623.m9HGNgAU030912 at onyx.spiritone.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > Is it a SunBlade 1000 by any chance? If so you'd better have a good > A/C in > > > the room. :-( I've only been able to run mine in the dead of winter > when I > > > could open the door and let cool air in. > > > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > -- > > No it's a 2000. It's a lot bigger, noiser and heavier then I was > > expecting. I was thinking it was just a tower machine. I didn't > > realise the depth of it. > > Any idea how well these run with Solaris 10, do you know if it would > > run any quicker with 8 or 9. > > OK, I'm not sure but I think the 2000 is probably about as hot as the 1000, > as it is basically the same system, and I believe the 900Mhz CPU's are the > same part (I have dual 750Mhz CPU's in my 1000). I don't consider my 1000 > to be noisy, but it is BIG and HEAVY! In some ways I regret retiring my > dual 450Mhz Ultra 60, but the dual 750's with 4GB RAM make for a nicer > machine. I run mine with Solaris 10, but I tend to run CDE rather than the > Gnome based desktop as the Gnome desktop seems sluggish. > > The sad thing is, since it runs so hot, the main thing I've used my system > for is to low-level format SCA SCSI HD's (in an external JBOD) prior to > installing the drives in my OpenVMS system. I'd really like to upgrade to > a > nice Sun Ultra 24 system, but can't justify the expense (a Mac Pro would > make more sense for me). > > Zane > > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 62, Issue 38 > ************************************** > From jimgeneva at dorisland.net Fri Oct 17 13:55:07 2008 From: jimgeneva at dorisland.net (jimgeneva at dorisland.net) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:55:07 -0600 Subject: Looking for Gifford's Concurrent Dos-86 for CompuPro 8-16 Message-ID: <000501c93089$e52c5370$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Do you only have 8 inch disks or do you hae 5.25 disks as well? jim From stevew at intrinsix.com Fri Oct 17 16:22:15 2008 From: stevew at intrinsix.com (Steven Wilson) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:22:15 -0700 Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? Message-ID: <48F90207.8010507@intrinsix.com> Is it going to happen? Thanks, Steve Wilson From jonb at meyersound.com Fri Oct 17 18:53:56 2008 From: jonb at meyersound.com (Jon Barrilleaux) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:53:56 -0700 Subject: need schematic for BLC 80/05 multibus board Message-ID: I am a volunteer at the Oakland Aviation Museum. We are trying to restore a 1980 vintage cockpit training system. It contains a Multibus board by National Semiconductor, model BLC 80/05 (along with dual CA Naked Minis, and several other 8085 boards). Evidently this is a knockoff of the Intel SBC 80/05. We are trying to locate documentation for this board so that we can repair it. We are in desperate need of a schematic. Even an SBC 80/05 schematic may help. Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated. --jon CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachment hereto may contain confidential information of Meyer Sound Laboratories, Incorporated and is intended for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipient(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient), you have received this message in error and any review, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment hereto is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please promptly notify the sender and permanently delete it from your computer. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 18 01:56:52 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INS2651 uses In-Reply-To: <48F9181D.6533.8260F7D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <48F90B79.1932.7F4AD17@cclist.sydex.com>, <48F9181D.6533.8260F7D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Oct 2008 at 22:14, David Griffith wrote: > > > Ah, yes. That's exactly what I have. How common are the tape drive it's > > supposed to go with? > > This is all guesswork, but it's probably a QIC-36 interface. The > thing is still listed on media selection sales lists as taking > DC300XL tapes--very likely a Wangtek 5000E. Herb Johnson claims to > have a manual for the Alloy unit, so you might ask him about it. > > Software, on the other hand, may be a bit difficult to come by. Interesting. This card is for sale, in case anyone is interested. By the way, where can one get DC300XL tapes nowadays? Google gets me lots of hits for degaussers and cleaning tapes, but no media. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 18 02:01:34 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Granz wrote: > I have most of the stuff to put together a System 3. I have the card > cage with the 21-slot motherboard and a bunch of cards. The manuals I > got with the system include the Cromix manual, I have more than 1 64-K > RAM card and at least one TPU, so I believe that mine was a multi-user > system. I would like to put this back to near-original, but need a case > and power supply. > > Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide the > +/- 8 and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day of using > a PC power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage regulators to > allow them to work at the +5V and +12V of the power supply. In order to > do that though, I would need a small (3-5 slot) motherboard to test a > couple of cards together. > > If anyone has any of these available, I would be interested in obtaining > them. I do not have much money, but do have some other old computer > stuff that I can trade: a VAX Station 2000, an old Sun workstation, > many, many old PC parts and systems, lots of electronic parts, lots of > microcontroller stuff including several Dev Kits. Are you set on having a System 3 chassis for this? I think I have at least one more 21-slot chassis, the name of which I'm not at all sure of. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Sat Oct 18 02:13:44 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 03:13:44 -0400 Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? In-Reply-To: <48F90207.8010507@intrinsix.com> Message-ID: <000701c930f1$0faf0630$0201a8c0@evan> No. Sellam cancelled this year because of the economy. Plus, after 10 shows in 11 years (cancelled in 2001 because of scheduling close to 9/11), he deserves and needs a year off. Although, VCF East 5.0 last month was very successful! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Wilson Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 5:22 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? Is it going to happen? Thanks, Steve Wilson From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 18 02:53:04 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:53:04 -0700 Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? In-Reply-To: <000701c930f1$0faf0630$0201a8c0@evan> References: <000701c930f1$0faf0630$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <48F995E0.9070107@brouhaha.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Sellam cancelled this year because of the economy. What economy? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Oct 18 04:07:35 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:07:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I believe there was a CRT-like device (I forget the name -- > 'Charactertron'?) where you did sort-of send the characters to the CRT. > THe CRT had 3 deflection systems and an electode between them that > cotnained the patterns for all the xymbols (characters, etc) that the > device could display. You used the rearmost deflection system to direct > the beam from the electron gun at the right pattern and the front > deflection system to put it at the right place on the screen. No, I don;t > have one. Interesting. This reminds me of the CRT display of a Cogar C4 (or ICL/Friden 1501). It is a standard 5" CRT with an almost ordinary deflection system. But the deflection itself is rotated/mirrored, i.e. the "vertical" sweep is from left to right and the "horizontal sweep" from top to bottom. So the display controller writes all characters from the first text column first (and then IIRC only the text lines 1,3,5 and 7). Then comes the next columns. After all 32 columns come the even text lines (there's a display mode which only displays lines 1,2,3 and 4; the display has a 32 x 8 character cells). But that's not all. There is a second horizontal deflection coil that interferes with the first main deflection coil (I think this is called twiggle sweep or something like that). This second coil deflects the beam according to the width of one character cell, and one raster line of a character is written on the screen during this time. Christian From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 05:26:24 2008 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:26:24 +0100 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <48F8C346.7030105@pacbell.net> References: <200810171623.m9HGNgAU030912@onyx.spiritone.com> <48F8C346.7030105@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640810180326p2954ebfcvb58037dd52259efd@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/17 Jim Battle : > Say, > > Can anybody tell me how to subscribe to the classic computer list? > > I don't know how it happened, but I accidentally got subscribed to this > unix/solaris/linux list. > > Thanks a bunch. > I promise not to talk about this machine on this list for another 4 years ;) Dan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 06:26:21 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 04:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Computer Quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <877995.97550.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 10/18/08, Ian King wrote: > I got 7 out of 10 - thanks in part to those > 'questionable' units. :-) -- Ian I actually got 10 out of 10, the vintage computer section isn't hard, and I happen to know a fair amount about video game machines too... And I'll never forget that last one, having unpacked and installed over a hundred of them at the school I used to work at. -Ian (the other Ian) From dmabry at mich.com Sat Oct 18 08:26:24 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 09:26:24 -0400 Subject: PLM/80 compiler docs In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50810171017v4eab00behdcef64d9c3cd879c@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50810171017v4eab00behdcef64d9c3cd879c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F9E400.2030505@mich.com> Jeff Erwin said the following on 10/17/2008 1:17 PM: > > Love the old update letters. I was working for Intel in Oregon back then on > the 380 and 310 RMX development systems. We never saw anything that went > out to actual customers. The compiler cost $250? Wow. > Seemed like a lot at the time! I think the $295 price was for a one year extension of the warranty on PL/M-80 and it covered updates. The compiler itself was $2000 if I remember. Intel's tools were very expensive. But they were intended for companies that were making products to sell. You know how businesses charge other businesses lots of money. > I appreciate the scanning of the docs. If you email me the actual docs I > will get them up on the various archive sites as well. There could be other > dinosaurs out there looking for it. > I will start scanning the PL/M-80 syntax manual next week. It is the largest of the manuals. After that I'll work on the compiler operator's manuals. > I am able to compile and run PLM80 apps on my Imsai 8080 now, I am rewriting > all of my floppy drive control stuff from asm80 to plm80 as we speak. I > have forgotten how much easier PLM was from asm80! > PL/M was my favorite language. In those days I was designing and programming control and data acquisition systems for automotive R&D. How do you have Intel compilers and assemblers running on the Imsai? You must have ISIS-II running on it. How much work was that to do? Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 18 12:09:19 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:09:19 -0700 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: <01C930C4.6DBB8960@host-208-72-122-38.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C930C4.6DBB8960@host-208-72-122-38.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <48F9B5CF.13650.A8E0FDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2008 at 1:50, M H Stein wrote: > A misunderstanding, I think: he's talking about shorting out the > regulators on the *cards*, not in the PSU, and running regulated > +5 & +/-12 on the bus; should be doable with a heavy enough > bus and sufficient bypassing, in fact I think some manufacturers > did indeed do just that. Ah, I understand. Seems like a lot of bother when a plain unregulated linear supply would do the trick and maintain a certain measure of "authenticity", whatever that might be. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 18 12:12:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:12:28 -0700 Subject: INS2651 uses In-Reply-To: References: , <48F9181D.6533.8260F7D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <48F9B68C.10040.A90F40F@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2008 at 23:56, David Griffith wrote: > Interesting. This card is for sale, in case anyone is interested. By the > way, where can one get DC300XL tapes nowadays? Google gets me lots of > hits for degaussers and cleaning tapes, but no media. If the drive was indeed a 5000E, it's supposed to be able to tell the difference between DC300XL and DC600XL media automagically and adjust write current. So you might try a DC600XL tape if you get the thing going--they shouldn't be hard to find. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 18 11:19:12 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:19:12 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: <01C930C4.6DBB8960@host-208-72-122-38.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C930C4.6DBB8960@host-208-72-122-38.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <9F683104-A08A-4AF7-86B5-D3F9EFC8E5E8@neurotica.com> On Oct 18, 2008, at 1:50 AM, M H Stein wrote: >>>> Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide >>>> the +/- 8 and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day >>>> of using a PC power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage >>>> regulators to allow them to work at the +5V and +12V of the power >>>> supply. In order to do that though, I would need a small (3-5 >>>> slot) motherboard to test a couple of cards together. >>> >>> I don't think it's going to be possible to short around the +5 >>> and >>> +12 regulators in a PC power supply, as they're not discrete in that >>> way. Your best bet (IMO) is to surf eBay for an big open-frame >>> linear power supply. >> >> Brute-force linear is definitely the way to go. >> >> I'd be tempted to grab a couple of filament transformers, a couple of >> bridge rectifiers and some big caps. The great thing about S100 >> power supplies is that PSU regulation isn't important. A 6.3VAC >> filament transformer hooked through a bridge rectifier and a big >> electrolytic should be close enough. +/-16 could be furnished by a >> small 12.6v transformer. >> >> The real job of regulation is furnished on each board (usually >> something like 78xx 79xx linear regulator ICs). > > A misunderstanding, I think: he's talking about shorting out the > regulators on the *cards*, not in the PSU, and running regulated > +5 & +/-12 on the bus; should be doable with a heavy enough > bus and sufficient bypassing, in fact I think some manufacturers > did indeed do just that. Hmm yes, upon giving the original message a second read, I'm sure that's exactly what he meant. The only drawback to his approach is that the boards will make smoke if used in a "standard" S-100 chassis later on (in case someone forgets). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 18 12:20:38 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:20:38 -0500 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F79061.9030401@gjcp.net> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> <48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com> <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> <48F79061.9030401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081018121603.07ab0850@mail.threedee.com> At 02:05 PM 10/16/2008, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >This is the sort of thing that is threatening the very fabric of our community. But will it unravel? - John From vrs at msn.com Sat Oct 18 12:49:49 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:49:49 -0700 Subject: PDX surplus stores was: Great day at Tek References: Message-ID: From: "Paxton Hoag" > Another store on the Robotics list is: > > SurplusGizmos > 5797 NW Cornelius Pass Road > Hillsboro Oregon 97124 I've been there many times. I bought my digital calipers there, and a friend likes to buy their small end-mill bits there, from the small tools and stuff in the glass counters. They have a nice selection of switches, connectors, resistors, and other small parts. I've also purchased a number of things from their selection of small boards and whatnot for $.50 to $2. I've seen lots of Z80 SBC's there in the past, and a number of boards with socketed SRAM as well. (Which is amusing, as the SRAM removed from the boards is sold in the small parts area for about the same price per chip as for a board of the stuff.) I haven't bought much of the test equipment or manufacturing robotics, as I don't need it. I did buy a bunch of those fancy ZIF sockets that fit all kinds of different chips (which appear to be meant as shippers; they have all the pins grounded, and a hard plastic case). Loads of fun :-)! > Hours: > Wednesday and Friday 11am to 6pm > Saturday 11am to 5pm Hmm. I went there a couple weeks ago on a Tuesday, I thought. I knew they were closed on Mondays -- have they closed on more days of the week recently? Vince From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Oct 18 13:00:11 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:00:11 -0700 Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? In-Reply-To: <000701c930f1$0faf0630$0201a8c0@evan> References: <000701c930f1$0faf0630$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <200810181100.11305.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 18 October 2008, Evan Koblentz wrote: > No. Sellam cancelled this year because of the economy. Not necessarily the economy. He asked a number of us locally to support him this year - spreading the responsibility for VCF West around more this year than in previous years. Unfortunately, almost all of those he contacted (including myself) are simply swamped with work - and literally don't have the time to spare. So blame it on us locals for not supporting Sellam - not Sellam himself or the economy... > Plus, > after 10 shows in 11 years (cancelled in 2001 because of scheduling > close to 9/11), he deserves and needs a year off. There is that... Lyle > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Wilson > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 5:22 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? > > > Is it going to happen? > > > Thanks, > Steve Wilson -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 18 13:39:38 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:39:38 -0600 Subject: dead 4114's was: Re: Tektronix 4108 terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:30:17 -0600. Message-ID: Appendix B for the 4113 appears identical to the Appendix B in the 4114 Operator's Manual that's online. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 14:10:14 2008 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe-Jacques?=) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AlphaServer 1000a troubles Message-ID: Hello all, This is a slightly modified version of the message that I've posted to comp.os.vms. Wanted to see if anyone here might have an idea. I'm trying to prepare an old AlphaServer 1000a with installed video card for an installation of VMS or Tru64. The difficulty starts when I turn it on. Sometimes the LCD on the front is active and displays the self tests and beeps once. More often than not, however, it remains blank and there is no beep. When the LCD _does_ turn on, the blue SRM console appears _temporarily_ some moments later on the monitor. For example, I notice that the tests have been successful and the machine gives me the ">>>" prompt. Then, about 1 min later, the screen goes dark -- even if I'm in the middle of typing something! Any ideas? Thanks, - Alex From djg at pdp8.net Sat Oct 18 14:19:44 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:19:44 -0400 Subject: DEC OMNIBUS Signal Definitions Message-ID: <200810181919.m9IJJiU13361@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >I'm looking for a reference document that defines the functions of the >various signals on the DEC PDP 8/e/f/m Omnibus. It's in here, see chapter 9 http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/queryb.pl?level=1D-09-100;id=122 From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 14:19:28 2008 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe-Jacques?=) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Symbolics Genera Message-ID: Thanks to those who responded publicly and privately to my request for information. It appears that OpenGenera, the port of Genera to the Alpha running Tru64, is the quickest way to gain exposure to the operating system. (Which is why you'll notice my previous messages concerning one of my misbehaving Alphas. The other is running OpenVMS 8.3 -- no touch!) Will try to get my hands on a copy. The hardware -- i.e. a real Symbolics computer or alternatively an Alpha or a Mac with the necessary hard or software -- can be had from the source (David Schimdt) but it's not cheap and he's based in Virginia. Which is not to say that it's not an interesting offer -- I just need to try the OS first! - Alex From djg at pdp8.net Sat Oct 18 14:24:20 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:24:20 -0400 Subject: Line printer available Message-ID: <200810181924.m9IJOK813564@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> A digital line printer LG05 Plus is available for pickup in Gaithersburg MD. Comes with spare ribbons and a box of paper. This is a high speed dot matrix line printer for the standard wide pinfeed paper. 500 LPM. 29"x27"x41". Its a little too new for my pdp-8 collection, deafening drum or chain is more appropriate. http://www.sinca.biz/compaq-line-printer-speed-500-lpm-lg05-plus-lg05plus-p-5431 .html May have windows drivers for people without vaxes. http://www.tallygenicom.com/support/line/LG-drv.htm Reply to me, not list. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 18 14:34:04 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:34:04 -0700 Subject: PLM/80 compiler docs Message-ID: <48FA3A2C.2080705@bitsavers.org> > I will start scanning the PL/M-80 syntax manual next week. here is a list of Intel documents that have already been scanned. 121539-003 121539-005 121570-002 121575-003 121609-003 121612-001 121616-001 121616-002 121616-004 121617-001a 121618-002 121628-001 121628-003 121636-002 121636-003 121703-002 121711-001 121748-001 121752-001 121753-001 121753-004 121756-002 121756-003 121757-002 121757-005 121758-003 121776-002 121880-001 121966-003 122014-002 122015-001 122085-001 134860-001 142721-003 142887-001 142926-004 142978-001 142982-002 9800292-04d 9800306-06 9800317D 9800463b 9800478-04 9800555-02 9800556-02 9800559-03 9800559-05 9800605-02b 9800639-03 9800639-04e 9800642-02 9800672-02 9800758-02 9800819-03 9800902-02 9800938-01 9800949-01 9803122-02 9803123-05 9803124-02 ice85 prompt48 serIII_Schem serIIrom_rev_1.2 9800447-03_79 121539-001_pascal86 121725-001_8087lib 9800481a_fortran80 9800640-02_86macro 9800478-04D_plm86operInstr 9800967-01_flp_nov79 121703-003_asm86 9800133F_promProg 210341-004_jun83 9800292D_isisII8080macro 162180-001A_hse-49_Oct80 121797-001_uSftUtilSw_nov81 9800451A_sdk85um_jul77 121570-003_fort86ug 9800758-02_basic80 9800452-03_8080fpLib 9800268B_PLMprogMan 9800902-02_isisIIcredit 121624-001_x86macro 121776-002_runtime 9800268b_plm80 121956-001_alterTextEditor 121570-001_fortran86 9800641-02_isisIIx86macro 121539-003_pascal86 9800642-02_x86asmConv 9800301-04_8080asmLang 145412-001_videotex_mar83 143587-001_edit 121505-002_ddenUpgr From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 18 14:34:05 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INS2651 uses In-Reply-To: <48F9B68C.10040.A90F40F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <48F9181D.6533.8260F7D@cclist.sydex.com>, <48F9B68C.10040.A90F40F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Oct 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Oct 2008 at 23:56, David Griffith wrote: > > > Interesting. This card is for sale, in case anyone is interested. By the > > way, where can one get DC300XL tapes nowadays? Google gets me lots of > > hits for degaussers and cleaning tapes, but no media. > > If the drive was indeed a 5000E, it's supposed to be able to tell the > difference between DC300XL and DC600XL media automagically and adjust > write current. So you might try a DC600XL tape if you get the thing > going--they shouldn't be hard to find. I'd have to find a drive first, then fiddle around with getting it working. I don't have a working S100 system. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 18 14:49:28 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:49:28 -0600 Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:55:41 -0400. <200810162007.QAA27137@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: In article <200810162007.QAA27137 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, der Mouse writes: > > Characters are not pixels, > > They can certainly be used as an implementation of pixels. They are not pixels, tortured imaginations aside. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Oct 18 15:07:33 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:07:33 -0700 Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? In-Reply-To: <200810181100.11305.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <000701c930f1$0faf0630$0201a8c0@evan> <200810181100.11305.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > So blame it on us locals for not supporting Sellam - not > Sellam himself or the economy... > I blame Sellam for the economy. The housing bubble was all his idea. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Oct 18 15:07:33 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:07:33 -0700 Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? In-Reply-To: <200810181100.11305.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <000701c930f1$0faf0630$0201a8c0@evan> <200810181100.11305.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > So blame it on us locals for not supporting Sellam - not > Sellam himself or the economy... > I blame Sellam for the economy. The housing bubble was all his idea. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 18 15:24:56 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081018121603.07ab0850@mail.threedee.com> References: <4affc5e0810160724y2992379dne8df46778a34d5c@mail.gmail.com> <48F75B17.3000106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0810160822u9944ddam9e5d45e55eac9fea@mail.gmail.com> <48F763E0.20703@jetnet.ab.ca> <48F79061.9030401@gjcp.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20081018121603.07ab0850@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <20081018132337.U86664@shell.lmi.net> > >This is the sort of thing that is threatening the very fabric of our community. > At 02:05 PM 10/16/2008, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > But will it unravel? Darn it! Can we mend it before it becomes too frayed and threadbare? From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 15:25:24 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:25:24 -0700 Subject: Symbolics Genera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: > Thanks to those who responded publicly and privately to my request for > information. I'm going to add a bit more here... :) > It appears that OpenGenera, the port of Genera to the Alpha running Tru64, > is the quickest way to gain exposure to the operating system. (Which is why > you'll notice my previous messages concerning one of my misbehaving Alphas. > The other is running OpenVMS 8.3 -- no touch!) Will try to get my hands on a > copy. Unless things have changed, OpenGenera was far more expensive than some of the older Symbolics machines that David sometimes has for sale. For example, if he still has MacIvory boards, that's several thousand dollars cheaper than OpenGenera. > The hardware -- i.e. a real Symbolics computer or alternatively an Alpha or > a Mac with the necessary hard or software -- can be had from the source > (David Schimdt) but it's not cheap and he's based in Virginia. Which is not > to say that it's not an interesting offer -- I just need to try the OS > first! He also has an office in LA, if that helps. :) Mark From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 18 13:52:15 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:52:15 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System Message-ID: <01C9313F.812731E0@host-208-72-122-68.dyn.295.ca> ---------------Original Message: Message: 11 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:15:03 -0400 From: "Granz" Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System I have most of the stuff to put together a System 3. I have the card cage with the 21-slot motherboard and a bunch of cards. The manuals I got with the system include the Cromix manual, I have more than 1 64-K RAM card and at least one TPU, so I believe that mine was a multi-user system. I would like to put this back to near-original, but need a case and power supply. Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide the +/- 8 and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day of using a PC power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage regulators to allow them to work at the +5V and +12V of the power supply. In order to do that though, I would need a small (3-5 slot) motherboard to test a couple of cards together. If anyone has any of these available, I would be interested in obtaining them. I do not have much money, but do have some other old computer stuff that I can trade: a VAX Station 2000, an old Sun workstation, many, many old PC parts and systems, lots of electronic parts, lots of microcontroller stuff including several Dev Kits. Also if anyone has done this before please let me know how it went. Thanks, Art --------------Reply: In my Cromemco pile I have a System3 that I will probably scrap, but I don't suppose that's much help since shipping for the box & PS would be pretty steep. Why not just use your backplane for your test? What's a TPU? Did you mean ZPU or DPU by any chance? The most important card in a Cromemco is probably the FDC; hope you've got a working one. Pretty well every Cromemco manual has been scanned and is on the Web in several places; good luck! mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 18 14:51:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:51:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 17, 8 09:38:08 pm Message-ID: > > There was a color vector display technology that didn't use a shadow > > mask or phosphor dots, but it was very uncommon. It used two layers of > > phosphor with different activation energies, and the high-voltage supply > > was actually switched between two voltages. The lower voltage only > > activated one phosphor, but the higer voltage activated both, so two > > different colors were available. This was used in the DEC VR20 monitor, > > of which few units were believed to have been sold. > > I haev an HP1350 'graphics translator' here -- it's an HPIB input vector > display generator. The manual mentions an HP colour vector monitor for > this unit, which would appear to work as you described, alas I've never > seen one (I have the HP1311 monochrome monitor only). I cna dig out the > model number if anyone wants to look for one. I have looked in the HP1350 manual, the monitor in question is the HP1338. I can find no mention of it on the web at all, alas. According to the HP1350 manual, it had a 2-bit colour selection input, providing 3 colours (the 4th state repeated one of the other colours). Said colours were red, yellow, and green. I have no idea how it worked, whether it was a shaddowmask CRT (but if it was, why not also have blue?) or one with difference energy phosphors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 18 14:55:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:55:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <20081017142129.T40527@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 17, 8 02:23:26 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > Did anyone try using 3 monochrome CRTs and combining the outputs > > optically (e.g. by back projectuion)? That would get round the need for a > > shadowmask > > In the 1970s, there were some projection TVs that had three CRTs. > Convergence/alignment needed to be adjusted any time the set was moved. Sure, and actually, thay applies to delta-gun shadowmask CRTs too. You had to converge those in the place where the set was going to be used [1]. But I was sepcifically asking about a vector displaym biot a raster one. A vector display using 3 monochrome CRTs optically combined would not have the resolution limit imposed by the shadowmask. [1] The coming of the in-line gun CRT firstly allowed for portable colour TVs, and secondly meant the colour TVs could be sold by what are known in the UK as 'box shifters' -- shops with almost no knowledge of their products, they just sell you the unit. Before that, a colour TV had to be set up in the customers house, something that few people did themselves. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 18 14:59:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:59:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer graphics in the 1950s In-Reply-To: <48F8A7DE.23628.66F9E90@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 17, 8 02:57:34 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Oct 2008 at 21:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Did anyone try using 3 monochrome CRTs and combining the outputs > > optically (e.g. by back projectuion)? That would get round the need for a > > shadowmask > > As Fred mentioned, projection TVs (I still see them), but convergence > was a headache. The fewer optics, the better. Better to use field- > sequential with a color wheel (as in the old CBS color TV system) as > various computer-to-film systems did. > > If you've never seen one, the color on the old CBS system was quite > good--far better than the RCA shadowmask tubes of the time. > Of course the problem, for TV, was that the signal was not compatible with the monochrome system (in either direction). That was, I believe, a major reason for not using sequential colour systems. Of course this doesn't apply for vector graphics displays, and thinking about it, at least one vector display system did use a rotating colour wheel on a spectacle-like frame in front of the useres eyes. Not only did this give colour, but also a 3D effect (the wheel could blank off each eye alternately so that you could have the 2 images of a stereo pair viewed by each eye). The machine I am thinking of is, of course, the Vectrex video game. The colour/3D spectacles are, alas, very hard to find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 18 16:08:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:08:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Old Computer Quiz In-Reply-To: <397135.23679.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at Oct 18, 8 00:49:27 am Message-ID: > > > Here's a short (10 question) 'old computer quiz'. It'll probably only be up= > for a week or so, but should be in the quiz archives after that. > Admittedly, the last 3 questions are rather modern, but fit within the 10 y= > ear rule (except possibly Q10). > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7671677.stm > > > For the record I failed the 1st question which I know I should have got aft= > er the recent discussion on Space War. I scored 8 out of 10, though with so= > me questions only having 2 answers it's a bit 50:50! You beat me then :-). I got 7 out of 10. I got both games consoles wrong (but then the only 2 games consoles I own are the G7000 and the Vectrex...), and I'd never heard of an E-Mac. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 18 16:09:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:09:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Q on 3.5" Sony floppy drive In-Reply-To: <48F93343.70202@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at Oct 17, 8 08:52:19 pm Message-ID: > The person who got them worked at Codex. He brought back > the schematic of the floppy interface of the device. We > compared that up and there seemed to be some differences. > We tried making an 'adapter' cable... but had no luck either. Do you still have that information, and how you wired the adapter? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 18 16:14:58 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:14:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to invoke the classiccmp aspect of the list (was Re: Sparc In-Reply-To: <200810180021.32929.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 18, 8 00:21:32 am Message-ID: > > On Friday 17 October 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > It requires arcane rites involving ritual sacrifice. Make sure > > > > you have an elder sigil. > > > > > > Try sacrificing a blue-blue-blue resistor by overdriving it until > > > the magic smoke is let out. > > > > 66 Megohms? I think yoy're likely to exceed the voltaeg rating and > > cause flashover long before it burns out by dissipating too much > > power. > > Really? If my calculations are correct :), a 1/2 W resistor is would > only need to be just under 6000V to exceed the wattage rating, and I Yes, I'll agree with that. > think would be physically large enough to avoid flash-over in dry air > (30V per mil works out to 0.2in of gap at 6000V). A small neon sign The voltage rating of resistors is lower than you might expect. For most small wire-ended resistors it's only a few hundred volts. The main problem is intenral flashover between parts of the resisive element -- it's not a uniform block of resistive material, it's more likely to be helical in structure (possibly a resisive coating on an insulator with a helical path cut in the coating, thus leaving a helical resistive coating to form the actual resistor. I suspect if you took a 66 Meg 0.5Wresistor and slowly increased the voltage across it, it would fail from an internal flashover long before the voltage was reached that should burn it out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 18 16:23:02 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:23:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Oct 18, 8 11:07:35 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, I believe there was a CRT-like device (I forget the name -- > > 'Charactertron'?) where you did sort-of send the characters to the CRT. > > THe CRT had 3 deflection systems and an electode between them that > > cotnained the patterns for all the xymbols (characters, etc) that the > > device could display. You used the rearmost deflection system to direct > > the beam from the electron gun at the right pattern and the front > > deflection system to put it at the right place on the screen. No, I don;t > > have one. > > Interesting. > This reminds me of the CRT display of a Cogar C4 (or ICL/Friden 1501). It > is a standard 5" CRT with an almost ordinary deflection system. But the I once worked on some kind of scientific instrument, controlled by a NOVA 1210 IIRC which displayed a graph on a 9" composite video monitor _turned on its side_. This considerably simplified the circuity -- all the vidoeo circuit had to do was generate sync pulses and then turn on the video signal for a short time (giving a 'pixel') at the right time after each line sync pulse (thus putting said 'pixel' at the right height on the screen). > deflection itself is rotated/mirrored, i.e. the "vertical" sweep is from > left to right and the "horizontal sweep" from top to bottom. So the > display controller writes all characters from the first text column first > (and then IIRC only the text lines 1,3,5 and 7). Then comes the next > columns. After all 32 columns come the even text lines (there's a display > mode which only displays lines 1,2,3 and 4; the display has a 32 x 8 > character cells). But that's not all. There is a second horizontal > deflection coil that interferes with the first main deflection coil (I > think this is called twiggle sweep or something like that). This second > coil deflects the beam according to the width of one character cell, and > one raster line of a character is written on the screen during this time. That sounds a bit like the display circuit for the HP9100 calculator. This machine displays 3 rows of '7 segment' digits on an electrostatically-deflected CRT. There are, IIRC, 2 integrator circuits for each axis, the outputs are combined and fed to the deflection plates. One integratro for each axis is used to geenrate the individual segment lines, the other is used to move between characters or rows. The Charactron, though has 2 entirely separate deflection systems operating on the beam at differnt points. As I understand it, there's an electron gun, a deflection system to get the beam at the right point on the 'character generator target', then a second deflection system to get that character image at the right place on the screen. -tony From dmabry at mich.com Sat Oct 18 16:41:44 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:41:44 -0400 Subject: PLM/80 compiler docs In-Reply-To: <48FA3A2C.2080705@bitsavers.org> References: <48FA3A2C.2080705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48FA5818.5080002@mich.com> Al Kossow said the following on 10/18/2008 3:34 PM: > > I will start scanning the PL/M-80 syntax manual next week. > > here is a list of Intel documents that have already been scanned. > Snip lots of manuals... Al, The one that Jeff is asking for is in this list. 9800268B Is there a place that these manuals exist online for download? Otherwise, how would I go about getting a copy of them? Looks like a fairly complete collection. Thanks, Dave From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 18 16:51:47 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:51:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Computer Quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <816226.90302.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> My forte is games consoles (especially 90's or later), but I lucked out on a couple of the earlier questions. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 18/10/08, Tony Duell wrote: From: Tony Duell Subject: Re: Old Computer Quiz To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, 18 October, 2008, 10:08 PM You beat me then :-). I got 7 out of 10. I got both games consoles wrong (but then the only 2 games consoles I own are the G7000 and the Vectrex...), and I'd never heard of an E-Mac. -tony From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Oct 18 18:15:35 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:15:35 -0400 Subject: Newsgroups Server: freetext.usenetserver.com Message-ID: <48FA6E17.1060304@compsys.to> Does anyone use the following server for newsgroups? freetext.usenetserver.com [208.49.83.84] I am able to ping and get a response, but for the last 2 days, when I try to download posts from my favourite pdp-11 newsgroups, I get no reply. Can anyone help? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 19:37:32 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Antique Intel Intellect MDS-230 computer - $550 in Phoenix Message-ID: <157182.19863.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Saw this on Oct 10th Craigslist: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/sys/874746543.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Oct 18 20:35:51 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:35:51 -0400 Subject: Q on 3.5" Sony floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FA8EF7.5010502@hawkmountain.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> The person who got them worked at Codex. He brought back >> the schematic of the floppy interface of the device. We >> compared that up and there seemed to be some differences. >> We tried making an 'adapter' cable... but had no luck either. >> > > Do you still have that information, and how you wired the adapter? > Possibly, but not here.... it would be back at my parents with some of my old old PCs. -- Curt > -tony > > From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 20:48:48 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:48:48 -0400 Subject: West Coast VCF scheduled this year? In-Reply-To: <48F90207.8010507@intrinsix.com> References: <48F90207.8010507@intrinsix.com> Message-ID: <48FA9200.6010403@gmail.com> Steven Wilson wrote: > Is it going to happen? Nope. Peace... Sridhar From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Oct 18 21:02:54 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:02:54 -0500 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FA954E.1080909@pacbell.net> Christian Corti wrote: ... > This reminds me of the CRT display of a Cogar C4 (or ICL/Friden 1501). > It is a standard 5" CRT with an almost ordinary deflection system. But > the deflection itself is rotated/mirrored, i.e. the "vertical" sweep is > from left to right and the "horizontal sweep" from top to bottom. So the > display controller writes all characters from the first text column > first (and then IIRC only the text lines 1,3,5 and 7). Then comes the > next columns. After all 32 columns come the even text lines (there's a > display mode which only displays lines 1,2,3 and 4; the display has a 32 > x 8 character cells). But that's not all. There is a second horizontal > deflection coil that interferes with the first main deflection coil (I > think this is called twiggle sweep or something like that). This second > coil deflects the beam according to the width of one character cell, and > one raster line of a character is written on the screen during this time. The Datapoint 2200 used a serial mos memory in its first incarnation. Sweeping each row of text implies scanning the same characters seven times in a row. They couldn't afford to add a line buffer, so they invented "diddle scan". They actually scan to the upper left corner of each character, then sweep out the 5x7 dot matrix for that character, before adjusting the x,y deflection to the upper left corner of the next character. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 18 21:23:41 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:23:41 -0400 Subject: Disk Translation software (was Re: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software) In-Reply-To: <101320080003.9600.48F2904A000DA3F90000258022028887449DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <101320080003.9600.48F2904A000DA3F90000258022028887449DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200810182223.42447.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 12 October 2008 20:03, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:04:00 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Subject: Re: Looking for AT&T 3B1/UNIXPC/PC7300 software > > > >I remember some of those, too, and in fact had some in the files section > > of my bbs. But I also remember stuff that would deal with "foreign" > > formats, in particular there was "Media Master" and "Uniform". The > > former was simply a file transfer program, while the latter would > > actually "mount" a foreign format disk under an otherwise unused drive > > letter, both of which I had occasion to use under CP/M. I'm pretty sure > > that at least MM was available under DOS as well, dunno about Uniform. > > I have MS-DOS versions of Media Master and Uniform, if anyone is interested > in a copy. As I remember Media Master, it would let you set up a drive as > the foreign type, to read/write/format a disk (except you could not format > a Kaypro and one other type using MM). I can't recall now which one it was, but I had one of those, found on some random floppy, and what I found was that it did not deal at all well with the fact that I had a HD drive in the box. I guess it was looking for a "360K" in there, or something. I wouldn't mind getting a hold of those at some point, though I'm really doing very little with dos these days, and don't anticipate doing much except perhaps for a machine controller box or two at some point later on. The one place where I could use such right now is this box of floppies I found that a kind gentleman in Australia had sent to me. These are in Kaypro SS format, which was what I could deal with at the time, my only machine when he sent them being my Osborne Executive. I have some vague recollections of looking at the contents and finding alternate ROM listings (and maybe BIOS stuff?) for the Bigboard II. One thing that stands out in my memory was there being a ROM choice in there that'd set the ROM up for different sweep speeds, the default being 18.something KHz which my monitors back then sure didn't seem to care for much. I suppose I could dig out the one Kaypro machine I have handy, and hope that there's a boot disk in it, to read them, or maybe dig out my Exec, which I'm pretty sure has at least some floppies with it though I don't recall if MM is in there or not, and then feed them over to something else via serial cable... Too bad I don't have a linux box handy with a 5.25" drive in it. I've had idle thoughts of making a "media server" with four floppy drives of various types in it, perhaps a tape drive or two, etc. Maybe one of these days I'll get around to it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sat Oct 18 21:31:22 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:31:22 -0500 Subject: Newsgroups Server: freetext.usenetserver.com In-Reply-To: <48FA6E17.1060304@compsys.to> References: <48FA6E17.1060304@compsys.to> Message-ID: That server's port 119 is firewalled, but it is listening on 563 (NNTPS) On Oct 18, 2008, at 6:15 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Does anyone use the following server for newsgroups? > freetext.usenetserver.com [208.49.83.84] > I am able to ping and get a response, but for the last 2 days, when I > try > to download posts from my favourite pdp-11 newsgroups, I get no reply. > > Can anyone help? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 18 21:44:42 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:44:42 -0400 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200810182244.42948.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 13 October 2008 00:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm just finishing up assembling a PET "Video Mixer" from an old JPG > of a much older scan of said circuit. This particular one is annotated > as being from the "Commodore Pet Users Club of England - Newsletter > issues 1 & 2, page 9". It's the variant with three NOR gates ('LS02), > with a few resistors, capacitors, and a diode. The part that I'm > curious about is how much variation is allowed in the caps. > > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that > large lying around. That value definitely doesn't sound right to me. Maybe 2200 nF? > The output of that gate (which NORs the inverted vertical sync with the > massaged horizontal sync) feeds unto a "47mf" tantalum cap (then pulled down > to ground by a diode, and wire-ored to inverted video out/composite out via > a 470 Ohm resistor). I have 47uF caps, but that seems pretty large to me. For a coupling cap? Maybe not. Particularly if that's coupling vertical sync. > I have a basic understanding of RS-170-type video, and I know this circuit > is probably going to produce a signal that "modern" IC-based video inputs > will not like (much the same way the classic RCA CDP1861 video behaves), > but fortunately, I have an old B&W security-type monitor to plug this into > (which has already been tested with a CDP1861). > > I'm just curious why the caps are so large. I think I get what's going > on with this circuit (the way it combines the syncs and video), and I've > heard of similar circuits being used successfully by others, so with > luck, it'll work the first time. With the right parts in there, yeah. The abbreviation "mf" is not common on stuff coming out of Europe, it sounds more like early us-based tech, 1960s or earlier, but that doesn't agree with the rest of what you say here about the origins of the circuit. (Snip) > P.S. - I found another type of composite circuit using a CD4011 as an > inverter and a CD4066 to mix the signals, but for some reason I don't > have all the components labelled on my drawing - the cap on hsync in > particular. One interesting variation with that one is that the 'LS02 > circuit has a 1.5K pulldown on hsync between the cap and the gate, > while the CD4011/CD4066 circuit has a 10K pot. How much adjustment on > hsync is likely to be needed between the PET and the first gate of the > composite circuit? I suspect that pot might be to set black level? It's really hard to say much more without looking at the schematic you're looking at. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Oct 18 22:05:01 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 03:05:01 +0000 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <200810182244.42948.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <200810182244.42948.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20081019030501.GC23545@usap.gov> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:44:42PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 13 October 2008 00:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Hi, All, > > > > I'm just finishing up assembling a PET "Video Mixer" from an old JPG > > of a much older scan of said circuit. This particular one is annotated > > as being from the "Commodore Pet Users Club of England - Newsletter > > issues 1 & 2, page 9". It's the variant with three NOR gates ('LS02), > > with a few resistors, capacitors, and a diode. The part that I'm > > curious about is how much variation is allowed in the caps. > > > > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 mf" > > non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic caps that > > large lying around. > > That value definitely doesn't sound right to me. Maybe 2200 nF? As has been hashed over before, I'm more inclined to think some hand-drawn original was marked 2200pF (and then poorly transcribed to a formal print drawing). The graphic clearly shows "mf", though, not "nf" or "nF". In practice, though, since I didn't have anything quickly at hand, I gave the circuit a try with no cap (based on Tony's comments about a similar circuit for the TRS-80 that had no RC on hsync). I did get recognizable video, but I couldn't get a perfect horizontal lock. The screen slowly (at best) slid left or right. The text was perfect and the pixels were perfectly aligned, at least. I'm beginning to think (based on another circuit) that this cap and the attendant pull down resistor are a simple delay circuit to allow one to phase-shift the hsync relative to video-out, but perhaps that's an incomplete understanding of it. > > The output of that gate (which NORs the inverted vertical sync with the > > massaged horizontal sync) feeds unto a "47mf" tantalum cap (then pulled down > > to ground by a diode, and wire-ored to inverted video out/composite out via > > a 470 Ohm resistor). I have 47uF caps, but that seems pretty large to me. > > For a coupling cap? Maybe not. Particularly if that's coupling vertical > sync. Having now built it, it seems to work, but I still think it's awfully large. > > I have a basic understanding of RS-170-type video, and I know this circuit > > is probably going to produce a signal that "modern" IC-based video inputs > > will not like (much the same way the classic RCA CDP1861 video behaves), > > but fortunately, I have an old B&W security-type monitor to plug this into > > (which has already been tested with a CDP1861). To confirm - yes. This circuit produced video on a security monitor, but a modern LCD wouldn't sync to it. > With the right parts in there, yeah. The abbreviation "mf" is not common on > stuff coming out of Europe, it sounds more like early us-based tech, 1960s > or earlier, but that doesn't agree with the rest of what you say here about > the origins of the circuit. It's clearly designed for the PET, so 1960s is right out, unless that was the mindset and sematic context of the designer. > I suspect that pot might be to set black level? I would doubt that, since the pot is long before anything that mixes with video-out. Based on comments from another design, it's part of a horizontal sync compensation circuit (along with that "2200 mf" cap, I suspect). > It's really hard to say much more without looking at the schematic you're > looking at. I posted the URL in a followup once I rediscovered where I found it... http://oldcomputers.net/pics/pet-video.jpg As I've said - that circuit basically works, but I do get a slight horizontal roll with the one monitor I have access to (and its h.hold knob is quite twitchy - probably a dirty pot). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Oct-2008 at 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -56.2 F (-49.0 C) Windchill -89.1 F (-67.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.1 kts Grid 18 Barometer 679.8 mb (10636 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 18 22:05:53 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:05:53 -0400 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081013212957.GA25798@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <20081013212957.GA25798@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200810182305.53297.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 13 October 2008 17:29, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 08:38:30AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Hi, All, > > > > > > I'm just finishing up assembling a PET "Video Mixer" from an old JPG > > > of a much older scan of said circuit. This particular one is annotated > > > > Do you have a URL for said scheamtic? > > Found it... > > Under http://oldcomputers.net/pet2001.html > > http://oldcomputers.net/pics/pet-video.jpg Oh my. I'd say that 2200pF is indeed the correct value for that cap... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 18 22:50:42 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:50:42 -0700 Subject: PLM/80 compiler docs Message-ID: <48FAAE92.6060303@bitsavers.org> > The one that Jeff is asking for is in this list. 9800268B It's now up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/PLM From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 18 23:52:09 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 00:52:09 -0400 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200810190052.09965.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 16 October 2008 12:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 16, 2008, at 7:21 AM, Dan Williams wrote: > > I have just bought a dual 900mhz Sparc machine with 2gb memory. for > > ?130. I haven't got it yet. But I am quite sure it will be fast enough > > to use as a desktop machine. Also should be fairly quick at compiling > > bits and pieces. > > I haven't had a decent Sun machine for a few years so am looking > > forward to this one. > > I did have an Ultra 2 with dual 400 procs and it was my main machine > > for a good few years. > > Ohhhh my. :) You are going to LOVE your new machine, then. I've > always loved the Ultra2; it's one of Sun's finest workstations. The > UltraSPARC-II processor is a good design...but the UltraSPARC-III > kicks the snot out of it. It's a whole different world. > > For about a year until a recent upgrade, I ran the following on a > dual 900MHz UltraSPARC-III+ machine with 4GB of RAM and native FC > disks, a Sun Fire 280r: > > - Eleven virtual machines (using Solaris "Zones" virtualization > system) > - An email server for about 100 people, comprising: > = Incoming SMTP, 50K-70K messages per day, ~91% spam > = Spam filtering (heavy REGEXP processing) > = Virus scanning, for those few still running Windows > = POP3, IMAP, and IMAPS spool access > - Two web servers handling about thirty virtual hosts, most PHP-based > - Network monitoring system > - Real-time NEXRAD weather imagery processing system > - A biggish (20 queries/sec) database server > - Three Sun Ray thin client terminals (often running Firefox, > Thunderbird, etc) > - All of my software development (editing, compiling, testing) > > ...All on a SINGLE 4U rackmount machine with two 900MHz UltraSPARC- > III+ processors (8MB L2 cache each) and 4GB of RAM. It was a bit > swappy with only 4GB (450 processes in the process table, "ps" output > scrolls and scrolls), but very responsive. I recently upgraded it to > a dual 1.2GHz UltraSPARC-III+ machine with 8GB of RAM. Oh my. > Show THAT to an x86 fanboy and watch the pimply jaw drop. ;) I've no particular attachment to peecee architecture/hardware, except for the fact that my budget for equipment seems to be way down there on that level... What'd you do with the old machine? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 19 00:29:14 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:29:14 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810190129.14703.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 17 October 2008 12:21, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 17, 2008, at 10:15 AM, Granz wrote: > > I have most of the stuff to put together a System 3. I have the > > card cage with the 21-slot motherboard and a bunch of cards. The > > manuals I got with the system include the Cromix manual, I have > > more than 1 64-K RAM card and at least one TPU, so I believe that > > mine was a multi-user system. I would like to put this back to > > near-original, but need a case and power supply. > > > > Since I have been unable to find any power supplies which provide > > the +/- 8 and +/- 16 volts, I just thought of an idea the other day > > of using a PC power supply and shorting out the on-board voltage > > regulators to allow them to work at the +5V and +12V of the power > > supply. In order to do that though, I would need a small (3-5 > > slot) motherboard to test a couple of cards together. > > I don't think it's going to be possible to short around the +5 and > +12 regulators in a PC power supply, as they're not discrete in that > way. I don't think that's what he was talking about there. I remember some S-100 cards coming with regulators (all of them did, early on), and later the input and output points where those regulators _had been_ were connected with a wire jumper in the assumption that a switching power supply of some sort with regulated outputs would be used instead of the original S-100 unregulated supply. The catch, though, is that the System 3 needs a +24V supply as well, for the FDD. I have one, and it uses an oddball connector, too, which is one of the reasons I haven't gotten around to fixing the drive yet (which has problems), I need to make an extension power cable for the drive so it can be powered up and out in front of the case. (Snip) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 19 00:54:28 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:54:28 -0400 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: <20081019030501.GC23545@usap.gov> References: <20081013040831.GA4224@usap.gov> <200810182244.42948.rtellason@verizon.net> <20081019030501.GC23545@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200810190154.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 18 October 2008 23:05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:44:42PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 13 October 2008 00:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Hi, All, > > > > > > I'm just finishing up assembling a PET "Video Mixer" from an old JPG > > > of a much older scan of said circuit. This particular one is annotated > > > as being from the "Commodore Pet Users Club of England - Newsletter > > > issues 1 & 2, page 9". It's the variant with three NOR gates ('LS02), > > > with a few resistors, capacitors, and a diode. The part that I'm > > > curious about is how much variation is allowed in the caps. > > > > > > The schematic shows the horizontal sync coupled to a gate via a "2200 > > > mf" non-polarized cap. I don't know that I have any disc or ceramic > > > caps that large lying around. > > > > That value definitely doesn't sound right to me. Maybe 2200 nF? That should've said "2200pF" there... > As has been hashed over before, I'm more inclined to think some hand-drawn > original was marked 2200pF (and then poorly transcribed to a formal print > drawing). The graphic clearly shows "mf", though, not "nf" or "nF". > > In practice, though, since I didn't have anything quickly at hand, I > gave the circuit a try with no cap (based on Tony's comments about a > similar circuit for the TRS-80 that had no RC on hsync). I did get > recognizable video, but I couldn't get a perfect horizontal lock. The > screen slowly (at best) slid left or right. The text was perfect and > the pixels were perfectly aligned, at least. I'm beginning to think > (based on another circuit) that this cap and the attendant pull down > resistor are a simple delay circuit to allow one to phase-shift the > hsync relative to video-out, but perhaps that's an incomplete > understanding of it. > > > > The output of that gate (which NORs the inverted vertical sync with the > > > massaged horizontal sync) feeds unto a "47mf" tantalum cap (then pulled > > > down to ground by a diode, and wire-ored to inverted video > > > out/composite out via a 470 Ohm resistor). I have 47uF caps, but that > > > seems pretty large to me. > > > > For a coupling cap? Maybe not. Particularly if that's coupling vertical > > sync. > > Having now built it, it seems to work, but I still think it's awfully > large. Yes, perhaps. Now that I've seen the thing maybe figuring some time constants is in order. (But it's awfully late here at the moment. :-) > > > I have a basic understanding of RS-170-type video, and I know this > > > circuit is probably going to produce a signal that "modern" IC-based > > > video inputs will not like (much the same way the classic RCA CDP1861 > > > video behaves), but fortunately, I have an old B&W security-type > > > monitor to plug this into (which has already been tested with a > > > CDP1861). > > To confirm - yes. This circuit produced video on a security monitor, but > a modern LCD wouldn't sync to it. Probably fussier about what it was being fed. > > With the right parts in there, yeah. The abbreviation "mf" is not > > common on stuff coming out of Europe, it sounds more like early us-based > > tech, 1960s or earlier, but that doesn't agree with the rest of what > > you say here about the origins of the circuit. > > It's clearly designed for the PET, so 1960s is right out, unless that > was the mindset and sematic context of the designer. > > > I suspect that pot might be to set black level? > > I would doubt that, since the pot is long before anything that mixes > with video-out. Based on comments from another design, it's part of > a horizontal sync compensation circuit (along with that "2200 mf" cap, > I suspect). > > > It's really hard to say much more without looking at the schematic you're > > looking at. > > I posted the URL in a followup once I rediscovered where I found it... > > http://oldcomputers.net/pics/pet-video.jpg That "black level" comment was just a guess based on what I'd read, before I saw the diagram. > As I've said - that circuit basically works, but I do get a slight > horizontal roll with the one monitor I have access to (and its > h.hold knob is quite twitchy - probably a dirty pot). Or nowhere near enough horizontal sync amplitude. No cap in there now? That'd give you some different waveform coming out, probably. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 13:06:59 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Computer Quiz In-Reply-To: <397135.23679.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <255998.7257.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> phew. Pulled it off. --- On Fri, 10/17/08, Andrew Burton wrote: > From: Andrew Burton > Subject: Old Computer Quiz > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 8:49 PM > Here's a short (10 question) 'old computer > quiz'. It'll probably only be up for a week or so, > but should be in the quiz archives after that. > Admittedly, the last 3 questions are rather modern, but fit > within the 10 year rule (except possibly Q10). > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7671677.stm > > > For the record I failed the 1st question which I know I > should have got after the recent discussion on Space War. I > scored 8 out of 10, though with some questions only having 2 > answers it's a bit 50:50! > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 19 10:10:18 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:10:18 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: <48F9B5CF.13650.A8E0FDA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C930C4.6DBB8960@host-208-72-122-38.dyn.295.ca> <48F9B5CF.13650.A8E0FDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2008, at 1:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> A misunderstanding, I think: he's talking about shorting out the >> regulators on the *cards*, not in the PSU, and running regulated >> +5 & +/-12 on the bus; should be doable with a heavy enough >> bus and sufficient bypassing, in fact I think some manufacturers >> did indeed do just that. > > Ah, I understand. Seems like a lot of bother when a plain > unregulated linear supply would do the trick and maintain a certain > measure of "authenticity", whatever that might be. Not to mention reliability! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 19 10:14:01 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:14:01 -0400 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <200810190052.09965.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> <200810190052.09965.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Oct 19, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Oh my. Yes. :) >> Show THAT to an x86 fanboy and watch the pimply jaw drop. ;) > > I've no particular attachment to peecee architecture/hardware, > except for the > fact that my budget for equipment seems to be way down there on > that level... Eh, life's too short to use crappy computers. > What'd you do with the old machine? :-) It's sitting here. I suppose it's waiting for you to make me a decent swap offer. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 19 10:24:37 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:24:37 -0400 Subject: Shameless plug - new USB controller for retro systems In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640810160421y48ce0995tbbf452cc68066d7@mail.gmail.com> <200810190052.09965.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48FB5135.3070903@atarimuseum.com> Hi everyone, Just wanted to let those interested know about a new USB controller I've designed for PC/Win, Mac OSX and Linux systems which is perfect for playing games through emulators of vintage computer, video game systems and arcade machines: The Classic USB Joystick Controller: http://www.legacyengineer.com/store.html I also put 10 contact points onto the PCB to allow up to 10 additional buttons to be wired into the board, which is great for those who build their own arcade controls and are looking for an easy and inexpensive way to connect up joysticks, fire, coin, player select and other buttons. Curt From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 19 11:14:07 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:14:07 -0400 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: References: <200810190052.09965.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200810191214.07503.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 19 October 2008 11:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 19, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Oh my. > > Yes. :) > > >> Show THAT to an x86 fanboy and watch the pimply jaw drop. ;) > > > > I've no particular attachment to peecee architecture/hardware, > > except for the fact that my budget for equipment seems to be way down > > there on that level... > > Eh, life's too short to use crappy computers. Well, yeah, but being able to afford better is another matter entirely. I'm working on it... > > What'd you do with the old machine? :-) > > It's sitting here. I suppose it's waiting for you to make me a > decent swap offer. ;) Hm. I don't know what I might have offhand that you'd consider. But we could kick that around offlist... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rickb at bensene.com Sun Oct 19 11:56:40 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 09:56:40 -0700 Subject: UTek 3.0 Standalone Utilities Media Image? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's an oddball request, that I hope someone out there may be able to assist with. I have an old Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation that I used to use a long time ago. The hard disk died at one point, and I put the system aside. I had all of the installation media (1/4" QIC 24 tape) for UTek 3.0 and figured some day I'd get around to rebuilding the machine when I got a spare hard disk drive (SCSI). Well, that some day took a long time. I finally dug the machine out and got a hard disk for it (a nice HP 5 1/4" SCSI drive), and went to reload it, and found that my UTek 3.0 Standalone Utilities tape is bad. I know that it's the tape, because I put the drive on another (Linux) system, and I can read images of other tapes that I have, but I get I/O erroes when I try to read the Standalone Utilities tape. So, I figure that either the tape went bad due to the extreme length of time it went unused. I'm wondering if anyone out there managed to capture an image (dd or whatever) of this tape, and has it such that I might be able to use dd or whatever utility to make a new copy. I have been successful in using the drive (a WangTek) to read and write data to tapes with no troubles. I'd love to bring this old machine (the 4132 is a follow-on Unix workstating to the original Tektronix 6130, which was Tektronix' first mass-marketed UNIX workstation, using a National 32016 CPU, running a Unix based on Berkeley 4.2bsd.) back to life. The standalone utilities tape has tools on it which are used to partition and format the hard disk, and load the installation media onto the hard disk. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Rick Bensene From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 19 12:09:53 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:09:53 -0700 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: References: <01C930C4.6DBB8960@host-208-72-122-38.dyn.295.ca>, <48F9B5CF.13650.A8E0FDA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <48FB0771.1259.FB4E815@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2008 at 11:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > Not to mention reliability! Yeah, but it's that nice toasty brown spot on the PCB where the regulator is that lends a certain je ne sais quoi to the whole experience. :) Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 19 12:21:20 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:21:20 -0400 Subject: Mindset hard disk interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FB6C90.5020400@atarimuseum.com> Steven, Just did some digging through my Mindset Documents, low and behold, I found a Supplement in the MSDOS documentation on none other than: "Setting Up a Hard Disk With MS-DOS" including details on the Mindset Fixed Disk Utility... Curt Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone on the list know anything about this? I was given a > Mindset with two plug-in modules: > > Mindset Host Adapter Interface Module > Mindset Hard Disk Cartridge > > The former has a bus connector at one end and a DB37F on the other. > No disk controller chip, just a bunch of TTL logic. I'm guessing > either a proprietary bus or SCSI managed in software (a la Apple 2 > Sider). > > The "Hard Disk Cartridge" contains a pair of EPROMs. > > Any information appreciated! > > > Steve > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 19 12:21:20 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:21:20 -0400 Subject: Mindset hard disk interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FB6C90.5020400@atarimuseum.com> Steven, Just did some digging through my Mindset Documents, low and behold, I found a Supplement in the MSDOS documentation on none other than: "Setting Up a Hard Disk With MS-DOS" including details on the Mindset Fixed Disk Utility... Curt Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone on the list know anything about this? I was given a > Mindset with two plug-in modules: > > Mindset Host Adapter Interface Module > Mindset Hard Disk Cartridge > > The former has a bus connector at one end and a DB37F on the other. > No disk controller chip, just a bunch of TTL logic. I'm guessing > either a proprietary bus or SCSI managed in software (a la Apple 2 > Sider). > > The "Hard Disk Cartridge" contains a pair of EPROMs. > > Any information appreciated! > > > Steve > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 19 13:25:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:25:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <48FA954E.1080909@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Oct 18, 8 09:02:54 pm Message-ID: > The Datapoint 2200 used a serial mos memory in its first incarnation. > Sweeping each row of text implies scanning the same characters seven > times in a row. They couldn't afford to add a line buffer, so they > invented "diddle scan". > > They actually scan to the upper left corner of each character, then > sweep out the 5x7 dot matrix for that character, before adjusting the > x,y deflection to the upper left corner of the next character. I seem to recall the DEC VT11 (and thus GT40) did something similar. When it displayed a character it scanned a little raster at the appropriate place on the screen and used a normal dot-matrix character generator to turn the beam on and off. The HP1350, though, had a set of ROMs that were tables of the vector movements needed for each character. It didn't scan a raster for each character. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 19 15:06:03 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: imsai.net Message-ID: Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net regarding the Series 2 machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive chassis, but that's gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Oct 19 16:10:19 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: imsai.net Message-ID: <252747.50911.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 10/19/08, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net > regarding the Series 2 > machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive > chassis, but that's > gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. This page is still there: http://imsai.net/products/MDE.htm If you click on the picture of Todd with the dollhouse (at the top of the main page) it takes you to another page that has navigation links to a bunch of other stuff. I don't know if this is just atrocious website design, or an incomplete attempt to take down the other pages. --Bill From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Oct 19 16:11:40 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:11:40 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System Message-ID: <01C9320D.DDFA45A0@host-208-72-122-30.dyn.295.ca> -------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:29:14 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System The catch, though, is that the System 3 needs a +24V supply as well, for the FDD. I have one, and it uses an oddball connector, too, which is one of the reasons I haven't gotten around to fixing the drive yet (which has problems), I need to make an extension power cable for the drive so it can be powered up and out in front of the case. (Snip) ----------------Reply: Sounds like you've got one of the later System 3's with a Tandon TM848; the older ones used dual-slot Perscis, which used 110VAC for the motor. And of course he could also use a 5 1/4" drive instead. m From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 19 16:27:31 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: <252747.50911.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <252747.50911.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Oct 2008, William Maddox wrote: > --- On Sun, 10/19/08, David Griffith wrote: > > > Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net > > regarding the Series 2 > > machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive > > chassis, but that's > > gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. > > This page is still there: > > http://imsai.net/products/MDE.htm I found that one. I was hoping to get one of those enclosured of the same width as the computer and containing two 5.25" and two 3.5" bays. Would someone please suggest an alternative? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 19 16:31:02 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:31:02 -0700 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: <01C9320D.DDFA45A0@host-208-72-122-30.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C9320D.DDFA45A0@host-208-72-122-30.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <48FB44A6.4685.10A3FAB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2008 at 17:11, M H Stein wrote: > Sounds like you've got one of the later System 3's with a Tandon TM848; > the older ones used dual-slot Perscis, which used 110VAC for the motor. > > And of course he could also use a 5 1/4" drive instead. The Persci 270/277 dual drives still require +24v for the positioner, no? Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Oct 19 17:38:57 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:38:57 -0500 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: <48FB44A6.4685.10A3FAB2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C9320D.DDFA45A0@host-208-72-122-30.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <7DB3423A34@dunfield.com> > On 19 Oct 2008 at 17:11, M H Stein wrote: > > > Sounds like you've got one of the later System 3's with a Tandon TM848; > > the older ones used dual-slot Perscis, which used 110VAC for the motor. > > > > And of course he could also use a 5 1/4" drive instead. > > The Persci 270/277 dual drives still require +24v for the positioner, > no? Yes they do - I have both the newer (dual tandon) and older (persci) System-3's, and they both have a 24v supply, and it's needed for the drives in both cases. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 19 16:40:58 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:40:58 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System In-Reply-To: <01C9320D.DDFA45A0@host-208-72-122-30.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C9320D.DDFA45A0@host-208-72-122-30.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <200810191740.58389.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 19 October 2008 17:11, M H Stein wrote: > -------------Original Message: > Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:29:14 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Subject: Re: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System > > > The catch, though, is that the System 3 needs a +24V supply as well, for > the FDD. I have one, and it uses an oddball connector, too, which is > one of the reasons I haven't gotten around to fixing the drive yet (which > has problems), I need to make an extension power cable for the drive so it > can be powered up and out in front of the case. > (Snip) > > ----------------Reply: > Sounds like you've got one of the later System 3's with a Tandon TM848; > the older ones used dual-slot Perscis, which used 110VAC for the motor. Hm, that might've been a bad asumption on my part. I do believe the ones in there is indeed one of those dual-slot Persci drives. > And of course he could also use a 5 1/4" drive instead. Sure, anything's possible, but the box really isn't set up for those. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Oct 19 16:50:37 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:50:37 -0400 Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System Message-ID: <01C93213.372F8B80@host-208-72-122-30.dyn.295.ca> --------Original Message(s): ---------- From: M H Stein[SMTP:dm561 at torfree.net] Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 5:11 PM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System -------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:29:14 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System The catch, though, is that the System 3 needs a +24V supply as well, for the FDD. I have one, and it uses an oddball connector, too, which is one of the reasons I haven't gotten around to fixing the drive yet (which has problems), I need to make an extension power cable for the drive so it can be powered up and out in front of the case. (Snip) ----------------Reply: Sounds like you've got one of the later System 3's with a Tandon TM848; the older ones used dual-slot Perscis, which used 110VAC for the motor. And of course he could also use a 5 1/4" drive instead. m ---------Correction: It's been a while, and memory's fading - of course the Perscis also used 24VDC, for head load etc, so yes, that's a snag unless he uses 5 1/4s. m From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Oct 19 18:39:54 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:39:54 -0400 Subject: Sun + SGI plastic Message-ID: <48FBC54A.6000207@hawkmountain.net> SS10 top, excellent condition SS20 top, excellent condition SGI Indigo 2 top (Purple), some scuffs, nice condition SGI Indigo 2 top (Teal), some scuffs, nice condition SGI Indigo 2 teal front 'door' plastics SGI Indy top, very nice condition Sun 411 case top, no scuffs or digs Make an offer, this stuff is just taking up space. -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Oct 19 18:41:49 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:41:49 -0400 Subject: SGI and Sun mainboards Message-ID: <48FBC5BD.7090008@hawkmountain.net> SS10 mainboard SGI Indy mainboard SGI Indigo2 R4400 mainboard SGI Indigo2 non impact midplane SGI Indigo2 audio module -- Curt From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 19 20:16:35 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Req: Help/Advice on Cromemco System Message-ID: <2945.71.251.75.245.1224465395.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Sun, October 19, 2008 1:09 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Not to mention reliability! > > Yeah, but it's that nice toasty brown spot on the PCB where the > regulator is that lends a certain je ne sais quoi to the whole > experience. :) Yes! :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 19 22:20:19 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 23:20:19 -0400 Subject: Sparc desktop vs x86 desktop In-Reply-To: <200810191214.07503.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200810190052.09965.rtellason@verizon.net> <200810191214.07503.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CD00423-66A0-42A1-9544-8156A8129BE6@neurotica.com> On Oct 19, 2008, at 12:14 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Eh, life's too short to use crappy computers. > Well, yeah, but being able to afford better is another matter > entirely. > I'm working on it... Well, lower-end or older systems are easily obtained at prices comparable to that of PeeCee hardware. The only big difference is that you can't find a decent Sun on the side of the road on trash day...PC hardware shows up that way all the time, as long as it's more than about six months old. But if you're patient, or if you have a friend who has a very large quantity of Sun gear (AHEM), you can get good stuff. >>> What'd you do with the old machine? :-) >> >> It's sitting here. I suppose it's waiting for you to make me a >> decent swap offer. ;) > > Hm. I don't know what I might have offhand that you'd consider. > But we could > kick that around offlist... Yep, ping me off-list. There isn't much stuff I really "need" right now, aside from cash and perhaps some antidepressants, so I'd mainly be interested in stuff that...well, catches my interest. Aside from that, though, I'd like to find some RK05 rack slides and a DEC 3U dark-style blank rack panel, but those are already covered, I think, by people here with whom I need to get back into touch. I'd really like to find an RK11-D, and a VT11 board set (have the VT11 backplane already). And a PDP-8/a. Oh, and a core subsystem for a PDP-11/05, but I don't know which version of the backplane I have. Even lacking that stuff, though, I'm sure we won't have any trouble coming up with a swap deal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Oct 19 10:07:56 2008 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:07:56 -0400 Subject: AlphaServer 1000a troubles References: Message-ID: <000701c931fc$77baf2f0$6401a8c0@HP24150918428> Alex, Two items to question: fans and their tachs and maybe the power supply crow barring.. Dan Snyder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques" To: Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 3:10 PM Subject: AlphaServer 1000a troubles > Hello all, > > This is a slightly modified version of the message that I've posted to > comp.os.vms. Wanted to see if anyone here might have an idea. > > I'm trying to prepare an old AlphaServer 1000a with installed video card > for an installation of VMS or Tru64. > > The difficulty starts when I turn it on. Sometimes the LCD on the front is > active and displays the self tests and beeps once. More often than not, > however, it remains blank and there is no beep. > > When the LCD _does_ turn on, the blue SRM console appears _temporarily_ > some moments later on the monitor. For example, I notice that the tests > have been successful and the machine gives me the ">>>" prompt. Then, > about 1 min later, the screen goes dark -- even if I'm in the middle of > typing something! > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > - Alex > From jefferwin at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 18:05:41 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:05:41 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 62, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <200810181601.m9IG0w12006710@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810181601.m9IG0w12006710@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7c7c96a50810191605r378b410ar255ff3c86fbebb41@mail.gmail.com> > > > > > PL/M was my favorite language. In those days I was designing and > programming control and data acquisition systems for automotive R&D. > > How do you have Intel compilers and assemblers running on the Imsai? > You must have ISIS-II running on it. How much work was that to do? > > Dave I wish! Although it isn't a bad idea, if one could find the source to ISIS. I am running the ISIS simulator in a DOS box in WIndows XP which is running in Parallels on my Mac Pro quad procesor. I use ZTERM on the Mac as a dumb terminal and load programs using the 'send text' command. I wrote a hex loader into the SCS monitor which I have in EPROM in the IMSAI so I just send the hex output from OBJHEX to the loader through zterm. I am now working on the floppy primitives and perhaps eventually will try to get CPM running. ISIS would be more fun, any idea where the source is? I did a consulting gig with an automotive diagnostic company in Kalamazoo, MI back in 1979 when I was working at National Semtconductor. Great fun, although I had NO idea what I was doing, being less than a year out of UC Berkeley. Those were heady days! Jeff E From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 19:33:09 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mindset hard disk interface In-Reply-To: <48FB6C90.5020400@atarimuseum.com> References: <48FB6C90.5020400@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Oct 2008, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Steven, > > Just did some digging through my Mindset Documents, low and behold, I found > a Supplement in the MSDOS documentation on none other than: "Setting Up a > Hard Disk With MS-DOS" including details on the Mindset Fixed Disk Utility... Question is, do you or anyone else _have_ the setup utilities? Does it indicate what the interface is? -- From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Oct 20 04:48:36 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 02:48:36 -0700 Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits Message-ID: <48FC53F4.6000504@crash.com> I just received what I believe is an HP 9000/380 (thanks Stan!), details below. I'd like to get hold of the following: - Any 98229 RAM (4, 8, or 16MB) (or Kingston KTH400t/16, Dataram DRH9400 or 69310/69311) - A 3-button HP-HIL mouse - A 98550A framebuffer (or something compatible that'll do 1280x1024 with at least 8 bit color - SRX would be grand) - matching SCSI disk enclosure What I've got is: 98574Y enclosure - classic 9000/3xx look 98574-66511 rev C system board (25MHz 68040, 1818-5062 ROM) w/ 2 98229C 4MB memory cards (98229-66521) 98549A Catseye framebuffer (1024x768, 6 bits) 98626A RS-232 Serial Port (DIO-I ?) card 46021A HP-HIL keyboard (courtesy Weirdstuff Warehouse) Can try for trades, but a lot of my stuff is inaccessible these days so cash-equivalents may be easier. Thanks, --Steve. From aserlanger at earthlink.net Mon Oct 20 08:35:11 2008 From: aserlanger at earthlink.net (aserlanger at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:35:11 -0400 Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stay away, stay away! This guy has a track record of misrepresenting his products, talking your money, and then ... nothing. No refund, no regrets, nothing. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:06 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: imsai.net Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net regarding the Series 2 machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive chassis, but that's gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 20 12:49:04 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:49:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: <48FC53F4.6000504@crash.com> from "Steven M Jones" at Oct 20, 8 02:48:36 am Message-ID: I can't help with the rest of it (being much more an HP9000/200 person) but I know a little about these... > 98626A RS-232 Serial Port (DIO-I ?) card Yes, DIO-I. It's the same physical connector as S100 bus (and HP actally stated this somewhere), but oviously different pinouts/signals. It's basically the plain 68000 bus with signals for DMA, etc. The 98626 is a fairly simple RS232 port based, oddly, on the 8250 chip. The 50 pin connector is a stnadard-for-HP pinout, but that pinout takes some tracking down. IIRC it's in some of the _software_ manuals, BASIC and Pascal on hpmuseum,net. Or I can find it if you need it (I am pretty sure I have the scheamtic for this board). > > 46021A HP-HIL keyboard (courtesy Weirdstuff Warehouse) The internals of that keyoard are a little strage. I took one apart (IIRC, there are screws under the bottom lable), and removed a small encoder PCB containing a custom HP chip linked to an E2PROM (which, IIRC, stores the ID word, which is different for different key layouts), along with the key matrix itself. Connecting an ohmmeter to the 'tails' of that showed no noticable continuity when I presed on the appropriate area of the matrix, but using a _capacitance_ meter showed an increase in capacitance. I then looked up the 2 patent numbers on the matrix assembly, to finf they refered to a capacitve keyoard 'switch'. It's the only keyboard I've seen that works like this. -tony From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Oct 20 14:11:28 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:11:28 -0700 Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FCD7E0.6080008@crash.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >> 98626A RS-232 Serial Port (DIO-I ?) card > > Yes, DIO-I. The backplane has what appears to be a DIO-I adapter fitted for the top slot of the backplane, with two card edge connectors - one impossibly close to the top, you'd only ever fit one card. The rest of the slots use two DIN connectors, a la VME and other busses. One looks like a standard VME connector, the other is reverse gender IIRC and about a third the pincount. I'm wondering if these slots are the DIO-II that I've seen mentioned, or some other designation. > The 98626 is a fairly simple RS232 port based, oddly, on the 8250 chip. > The 50 pin connector is a stnadard-for-HP pinout, [...] At the moment I don't need to fuss with it, as there's a 16550 on the system board with what looks like a standard "DB9" connector. But thanks for the info, it may come in handy later. >> 46021A HP-HIL keyboard (courtesy Weirdstuff Warehouse) > > The internals of that keyoard are a little strage. Hopefully it will turn out to be a working example, and I won't need to open it up! I remembered quite liking the keyboard from an HP 700/22 terminal many years ago, but don't especially care for this one. The keys are very loose and wiggle around / rotate on the mechanism, and the pitch/width of the keycaps seems to be enough smaller than my Thinkpad keyboards that I'll be fumbling a lot. I know there are converters to allow the use of standard keyboards and mice, but at the moment I'm thinking of sticking with more-or-less stock parts. Just wondering if there are other HIL keyboard options. Thanks for the info! --Steve. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 20 15:29:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:29:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: <48FCD7E0.6080008@crash.com> from "Steven M Jones" at Oct 20, 8 12:11:28 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> 98626A RS-232 Serial Port (DIO-I ?) card > > > > Yes, DIO-I. > > The backplane has what appears to be a DIO-I adapter fitted for the top > slot of the backplane, with two card edge connectors - one impossibly > close to the top, you'd only ever fit one card. The standard DIO backplanes on HP9000/200 machines have twice ans many connectors as spaces for connector panels. The idea is that the 'hidden slots' canbe used for options that don't need connectors -- RAM, ROM (BASIC, HPL, etc), bubble memory, DMA, floating point, and so on. Some of the 9000/200 video cards are 2 PCBs, one with a bracket (with the video output socket), the other which fits in the hidden slot immediately above it. I wonder if that's what you have. Many of the internal-only options wouldn't be applicale to a 9000/300 machine, but the bubble memory card should work, for example. > > The 98626 is a fairly simple RS232 port based, oddly, on the 8250 chip. > > The 50 pin connector is a stnadard-for-HP pinout, [...] > > At the moment I don't need to fuss with it, as there's a 16550 on the Serial portd are always useful. > system board with what looks like a standard "DB9" connector. But thanks > for the info, it may come in handy later. I've made up my own cables for these ports (the same connector/pinout is used on the uilt-in RS232 port of the HP9816 and HP9817). If you need it, I can dig out the wirelist. > > >> 46021A HP-HIL keyboard (courtesy Weirdstuff Warehouse) > > > > The internals of that keyoard are a little strage. > > Hopefully it will turn out to be a working example, and I won't need to > open it up! I remembered quite liking the keyboard from an HP 700/22 That's no excuse. Ecerything needs to be taken apart :-) > terminal many years ago, but don't especially care for this one. The > keys are very loose and wiggle around / rotate on the mechanism, and the > pitch/width of the keycaps seems to be enough smaller than my Thinkpad > keyboards that I'll be fumbling a lot. > > I know there are converters to allow the use of standard keyboards and > mice, but at the moment I'm thinking of sticking with more-or-less stock > parts. Just wondering if there are other HIL keyboard options. There's the HP46020 keyboard. It looks much the same, and has the same size/layout of keycaps, but it's different internally. It uses mechanical keyswticehs soldered to a PCB, the circuitry is a mask-programmed COP400 microcontroller, the HP-HIL slave chip and a couple of 4000-series logic chips. The feel is somewhat different to the 46021, I think the older one is preferable. There are other HP-HIL keyboards with, IIRC, fewer keys. The Integral has one that stores on the front of the machine. AFAIK it'll work with other HP-HIL machines (it does, however, send back a different ID byte) -- the 46020/1 keyboards work on the Integral. This one has much the same mechanical design (and size/feel) as the 46020. There's also a rare version of one of the compact keyboards used with the 9816, but with an HP-HIL interface not the custom one for the 9816. I have never seen this one, though. If oyu are desperate, yuo could try using the electronics of the 46020 with another matrix of switches with a feel/spacing that you like. Alas the encoder and switches of that keyboard are all on one PCB, so you'd either have to desolder the HP-HIL chip and microcontroller and wire them up with the rest of the circuitry on a new PCB, or you'd have to cut the original board to separate the switch area from the electronics. I've never found any data on the HP-HIL slave chip. It seems to have an SPI-like interface to the COP, but I have no idea what the regiters, etc, are. -tony From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 20 16:15:21 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:15:21 -0400 Subject: Need to get rid of - Xypex switch Message-ID: It's a rather old (on the order of 10 years) old Xyplex switch. it's an 8 slot or 12 slot chasis, I believe it runs BPG (Border Gateway Protocol). So it probably has about 40 ports or so... Hasn't been powered on in years. The ports may only be 10MB, perhaps 100MB at best. It's about the size of a bar fridge or a BA-23 chasis. weighs a lot. May be worth more to a scrap dealer. I need it gone by the end of the month, or I scrap it myself. last chance! Dan. _________________________________________________________________ From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 20 16:18:44 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:18:44 -0400 Subject: [Spam] Re: Mindset hard disk interface In-Reply-To: References: <48FB6C90.5020400@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <48FCF5B4.4020102@atarimuseum.com> Why yes... yes I do as a matter of fact :-) Along with just about any Mindset released software ever written as well... the utility came on the Mindset MSDOS 2.11 release diskette set. Curt Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 19 Oct 2008, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Steven, >> >> Just did some digging through my Mindset Documents, low and behold, >> I found a Supplement in the MSDOS documentation on none other than: >> "Setting Up a Hard Disk With MS-DOS" including details on the Mindset >> Fixed Disk Utility... > > Question is, do you or anyone else _have_ the setup utilities? Does > it indicate what the interface is? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: 10/19/2008 6:02 PM > > From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 20 19:26:17 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 02:26:17 +0200 Subject: Some PDP-8 software saved Message-ID: <48FD21A9.6060107@hachti.de> Hi folks, I just got a bunch of DECTapes. They're online: http://pdp8.hachti.de?download/lab8e_dectapes Does anyone know the "Advanced Averager"? It seems to be complicated and I don't have a clue what it is... It belongs to the LAB-8/e software package (resp. it IS the package). When I start it using the supplied .BI file, it says something like "trigger" and starts drawing a moving dot on the VR14 CRT.... Best wishes, Philipp :-) P.S.: Would cool to see the stuff on bitsavers :-) From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 20 20:10:04 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:10:04 +0200 Subject: Some PDP-8 software saved - Corrected link! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FD2BEC.8080802@hachti.de> Hi again, Richard wrote: >> http://pdp8.hachti.de?download/lab8e_dectapes > > When I put this URL into IE7, I get a page that says "Not found! Go > home." The correct link is http://pdp8.hachti.de?software/lab8e_dectapes Sorry for any inconvenience! Ph :-) From ken at seefried.com Mon Oct 20 20:26:24 2008 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) Message-ID: <20081021012624.1E5953800072F@portal.seefried.com> > IIRC it's called a 'Princeton Ultra-X' Thought so. I worked for Princeton at one point, or rather, the company scooped them up. Inherited a warehouse full of them that they couldn't get rid on. Put them to reasonable use with Dell SVR4 servers on the back end. Unfortunately, they code was long in the tooth and full of bugs even then, so I don't image that they lasted too long. Used to have the source code, and the TI 34010 dev environment for Sun3. Undoubtedly gone in one purge or another. KJ P.S. - Dell SVR4 was an awfully good distro. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 20 20:37:54 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:37:54 -0600 Subject: Interesting X terminals (was: NEC SX-4B on Ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:26:24 -0400. <20081021012624.1E5953800072F@portal.seefried.com> Message-ID: In article <20081021012624.1E5953800072F at portal.seefried.com>, ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) writes: > Used to have the source code, and the TI 34010 dev environment for Sun3. > Undoubtedly gone in one purge or another. Any chance you could take a look-see through your Pile O' Stuff (a seemingly obligatory requirement for membership to our strange fraternity) and see if you still have this kicking around? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Oct 20 22:26:54 2008 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:26:54 -0400 Subject: New Hardware Available Soon! ... yet oddly ontopic!!! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20081020225608.012a2668@mail.30below.com> Yes, it's a shameless plug, but no it's not for my hardware. An individual by the name of Ken Pettit has designed a new piece of computer hardware called NADSBox - it's centered around simple portable file storage for the Tandy Model 100/102/200/NEC 820x (Kyocera-OEMmed) laptops that allows you to use an SD card to be used as a (dang big) floppy drive - and preserves the DOS file structure so you can easily transfer files from the SD card to your Winders/Mac (and I'll assume Linux, but it's not specifically mentioned) machine. Here's a press release on the unit: http://www.club100.org/nadsboxoverview.html And the user manual: http://www.club100.org/nadsboxusersguide_v10.pdf More info at: http://www.club100.org/ The inventor has several built and are slated for a 1 November 08 ship date, and if you [pre]order before 1 Jan 09, you'll get it for a cheaper price. Now... they're not cheap, at the preorder price of $150 & $10 worldwide shipping, but these things really are designed for the customer - they come with a 512Meg SD card with a built-in USB port so if you don't have a media reader, you won't have to buy one! Lo & Behold, tho - if that's not big enough, the NADSBox will support 16G SD cards! See the webpage mentioned above for more information on this *very* interesting piece of hardware for the Model 'T' laptops! Oh, and no, I'm not dead... yet anyway. My current employment situation is working on changing that in short order... but at least I'm employed. Laterz! "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 21 00:47:29 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Hardware Available Soon! ... yet oddly ontopic!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20081020225608.012a2668@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Oct 20, 8 11:26:54 pm" Message-ID: <200810210547.m9L5lThY012896@floodgap.com> > An individual by the name of Ken Pettit has designed a new piece of > computer hardware called NADSBox - it's centered around simple portable > file storage for the Tandy Model 100/102/200/NEC 820x (Kyocera-OEMmed) > laptops that allows you to use an SD card to be used as a (dang big) floppy > drive - and preserves the DOS file structure so you can easily transfer > files from the SD card to your Winders/Mac (and I'll assume Linux, but it's > not specifically mentioned) machine. > > Here's a press release on the unit: > > http://www.club100.org/nadsboxoverview.html > > And the user manual: > > http://www.club100.org/nadsboxusersguide_v10.pdf That looks AWESOME. I'll get one -- I've had too much "fun" getting my 8201A to speak to my PDD2. This looks like a much better option. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why did the chicken cross the Moebius strip? To get to the other ... uh ... From a.financial.engineer at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 10:52:51 2008 From: a.financial.engineer at gmail.com (Financial Engineer) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:52:51 -0400 Subject: Transputer-based stuff on ebay Message-ID: Hi, I am moving and hence I need to sell some of my transputer hardware, books, and other stuff since space is limited.. In the coming weeks, I am going to post a ton of stuff on ebay..Check out the current stuff at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260303159467 Cheers, Fin Engineer From save at savesysteme.com Mon Oct 20 13:29:45 2008 From: save at savesysteme.com (Daniel Fecteau) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:29:45 -0400 Subject: TI-980B Message-ID: Hi Tim We are interested on the to 980b system Can you call or email back ASap Daniel Fecteau Save Syst?me Inc. 1368, Chemin Du Bord-de-L'eau Laval (Qu?bec) H7Y 1C4 Tel. (450) 969-1616 Ext.10 Fax.: (450) 969-5855 Courriel: save at savesysteme.com web: www.savesysteme.com From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Oct 20 14:41:08 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:41:08 +0100 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FCDED4.60409@axeside.co.uk> >> They actually scan to the upper left corner of each character, then >> sweep out the 5x7 dot matrix for that character, before adjusting the >> x,y deflection to the upper left corner of the next character. > > I seem to recall the DEC VT11 (and thus GT40) did something similar. When > it displayed a character it scanned a little raster at the appropriate > place on the screen and used a normal dot-matrix character generator to > turn the beam on and off. The Tektronix 4052 and 4006 (and presumaby 4051 and 4012) do this. These machines all have storage-tube vector displays, but when you want to display text, scan a little dot matrix of the character. The 4052 at least can put this little dot matrix at any addressable point on the screen, not limited by the character block spacing or even (AFAIK) the dot matrix spacing. (The 4014 and 4054, iirc, drew the characters in a line draw font, which meant they could be scrolled or rotated. I don't have either... yet) Philip. From james at machineroom.info Mon Oct 20 16:17:01 2008 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:17:01 +0100 Subject: Transputer-based stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FCF54D.2050201@machineroom.info> Financial Engineer wrote: > Hi, > > I am moving and hence I need to sell some of my transputer hardware, books, > and other stuff since space is limited.. In the coming weeks, I am going to > post a ton of stuff on ebay..Check out the current stuff at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260303159467 > > Cheers, > > Fin Engineer > > Hi, there's some nice looking kit there. Would you be happy posting some of this to the UK, assuimg I win the auctions? Thanks, James (ebay : machineroom) From axelsson at acc.umu.se Mon Oct 20 18:18:59 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:18:59 +0200 Subject: Transputer-based stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FD11E3.6060702@acc.umu.se> Financial Engineer wrote: > Hi, > > I am moving and hence I need to sell some of my transputer hardware, books, > and other stuff since space is limited.. In the coming weeks, I am going to > post a ton of stuff on ebay..Check out the current stuff at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260303159467 > > Cheers, > > Fin Engineer > > Transputers... that brings me back ... 15 years. Waiting for the T9000 in vain. The only thing I ever saw was the data book and the cad drawing I made. Was there ever any samples out that real people could get their hands on? I would like to finally get a chip of that processor. My final thesis... the first one, went down the drain because of the constant delays. :-) Don't you worry, I will bid on your transputer hardware and if I win I'll give it a good home. /G?ran From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Oct 20 23:29:28 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:29:28 -0700 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) Message-ID: <48FD5AA8.6050402@msu.edu> Hey -- Stumbled across an old Teletype ksr-43 this weekend and couldn't pass it up. Seems to be working but the ribbon's (obviously) dried up. Was considering re-inking it but it's so worn through in places it's about to fall apart. Can't find anyplace on the 'net that still stocks them (lots of them /list/ it, though, which is annoying). Anyone have any leads? And while I'm on the subject -- anyone have any good leads for old typewriter ribbons? I have an old L.C. Smith Bros typewriter that's in need of one... Thanks as always (and still working on the Otrona Attache...), Josh From paul at frixxon.co.uk Tue Oct 21 04:26:20 2008 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (paul at frixxon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:26:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals available in West Sussex, UK Message-ID: <33784.208.51.31.162.1224581180.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> I've been taking an inventory of my storage and the following terminals need to go, free to anyone who can come and pick them up. I don't have the time or inclination to ship them. Take one, take ten, I need them gone in the next month. These were all working when put into storage. Sorry, these are the dull ones. There will be more interesting ones later. 4 x VT320 (1 x -B3, 3 x -C3) 3 x VT420 (2 x -A4, 1 x -B4) 1 x VT510-B4 8 x VT520 (4 x -A4, 3 x -B4, 1 x -C4) > 13 x LK201 keyboards > 10 x LK401 keyboards approx. 20 Wyse WY-420 terminals + keyboards 1 x LA100-BB DEC Letterwriter 100 1 x DECserver 200/MC 1 x Wyse WY-50 + keyboard From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 21 04:44:55 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:44:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <48FCDED4.60409@axeside.co.uk> References: <48FCDED4.60409@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008, Philip Belben wrote: > (The 4014 and 4054, iirc, drew the characters in a line draw font, which > meant they could be scrolled or rotated. I don't have either... yet) The 4014 and 4015 draw characters like the 4006, 4010 and 4012. You can address any valid point of the screen to display a character. A very nice application for Tektronix terminals today is gnuplot ("set term tek40xx"). BTW you can't scroll anything on a storage tube (in storage mode). Christian From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Oct 21 05:56:58 2008 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:56:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transputer-based stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: <48FD11E3.6060702@acc.umu.se> References: <48FD11E3.6060702@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <20081021115047.C96344@plum.flirble.org> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > Financial Engineer wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I am moving and hence I need to sell some of my transputer hardware, books, >> and other stuff since space is limited.. In the coming weeks, I am going >> to >> post a ton of stuff on ebay..Check out the current stuff at: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260303159467 >> >> Cheers, >> >> Fin Engineer >> >> > > Transputers... that brings me back ... 15 years. Waiting for the T9000 in > vain. The only thing I ever saw was the data book and the cad drawing I made. > > Was there ever any samples out that real people could get their hands on? I > would like to finally get a chip of that processor. Yep. I once saw a very cute little purple (IIRC) desktop cube, sized perhaps between a Mac Cube and a NeXT Cube. Made by Parsys I believe, and so could well be as mentioned in this PR: http://www.cbronline.com/news/parsys_has_desktop_t9000_parallel_transputer_lines Cheers, Andrew (who is still looking for software for his Meiko Computing Surface) From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Oct 21 06:03:07 2008 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:03:07 +0200 Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FDB6EB.6020803@update.uu.se> David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net regarding the Series 2 > machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive chassis, but that's > gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. > > Its probably vaporware. Read my thread here (and follow the links in the replies): http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=12007 /P From steve at cosam.org Tue Oct 21 08:08:34 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:08:34 +0200 Subject: Graphical developement environment for PDP-11 Message-ID: <95838e090810210608w5edd2d4byf3b6aa18b1b8bc60@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I'm posting this on behalf of -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From steve at cosam.org Tue Oct 21 08:11:41 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:11:41 +0200 Subject: Graphical developement environment for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <95838e090810210608w5edd2d4byf3b6aa18b1b8bc60@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090810210608w5edd2d4byf3b6aa18b1b8bc60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95838e090810210611j556e6846v66a8fe70836bc20a@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/21 Steve Maddison : > Hi all, > > I'm posting this on behalf of > Sorry about that - try again... ;-) Here's a message on behalf of Joerg Hoppe (currently having trouble registering on the list). Cheers, Steve ------ classiccmp message ------------------- Hi, I developed a graphical developement environment for PDP-11's. It's name is "PDP11GUI". Since it is spreading on the net already, I'm forced to announce it early. Status is "mostly beta". I begun building it in spring 2008 as a tool for my own 11/44 restauration project, but it quickly developed it's own momentum. Key features: - interfaces to 11/44 and SimH, ODT interface is under development. - interfaces through physical COM ports or via telnet. - visual display and manipulation of memory content - symbolic display and manipulation of I/O registers and bits. - can assemble and deposit MACRO-11 programs - can Run/Stop/Single step through code, displays execution position in source code and/or disassembly - can also be operated through photorealistic simulated PDP11/70 panel. - I/O page register scanner - Memory loader - 11/44 micro code display - MS Windows MDI application. - Free for non-commercial use. It is free for non-commercial use, download at http://www.j-hoppe.de/PDP-11/Resources/setup.exe Mandatory documentation at www.j-hoppe.de/pdp11gui.html Enjoy! Joerg Hoppe From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 21 09:54:44 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:54:44 -0700 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <48FD5AA8.6050402@msu.edu> References: <48FD5AA8.6050402@msu.edu> Message-ID: I looked a while back, because I also have a KSR43. There was one company that listed them but, when I ordered them, they informed me they no longer had some component or another and refunded my money. I'll see if I can find the reference again - maybe market forces (TWO customers!) would be stronger incentive. :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch [derschjo at msu.edu] Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:29 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) Hey -- Stumbled across an old Teletype ksr-43 this weekend and couldn't pass it up. Seems to be working but the ribbon's (obviously) dried up. Was considering re-inking it but it's so worn through in places it's about to fall apart. Can't find anyplace on the 'net that still stocks them (lots of them /list/ it, though, which is annoying). Anyone have any leads? And while I'm on the subject -- anyone have any good leads for old typewriter ribbons? I have an old L.C. Smith Bros typewriter that's in need of one... Thanks as always (and still working on the Otrona Attache...), Josh From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Oct 21 11:00:06 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:00:06 -0700 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <48FD5AA8.6050402@msu.edu> References: <48FD5AA8.6050402@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200810210900.08315.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 20 October 2008, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey -- > > Stumbled across an old Teletype ksr-43 this weekend and couldn't > pass it up. Seems to be working but the ribbon's (obviously) dried > up. Was considering re-inking it but it's so worn through in > places it's about to fall apart. > > Can't find anyplace on the 'net that still stocks them (lots of > them /list/ it, though, which is annoying). Anyone have any leads? I had the same problem. I kept hitting dead ends, as you, with all the places that list that they have them - and don't. I started calling back those same places - and leaving my name - asking that if they ever found any, to please let me know. Several weeks later, one of them actually called me back - they had found a box of six ribbons. I grabbed them, of course - and asked if they ever found more to let me know. They never called back again - and that was over nine months ago. The problem seems to be related to the unavailability of the unusual Teletype 43 cartridge. BTW: While I was waiting to get ribbons, I re-inked the one ribbon I had (there's a "reservoir" in the cartridge) and that worked - but not as good as new. So my suggestion is to just keep trying to find someone who has them "stashed" in a back room someplace. It sure doesn't look good for any new ribbons in the future... > And while I'm on the subject -- anyone have any good leads for old > typewriter ribbons? I have an old L.C. Smith Bros typewriter > that's in need of one... I use Los Altos Typewriter, 300 State St, Los Altos, CA 94022, Phone: (650) 948-0714. If you're in the SF Bay Area, Weirdstuff Warehouse has lots of them. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 21 12:34:13 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:34:13 -0600 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:29:28 -0700. <48FD5AA8.6050402@msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <48FD5AA8.6050402 at msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > Can't find anyplace on the 'net that still stocks them (lots of them > /list/ it, though, which is annoying). Anyone have any leads? A guy apparently found a case of ribbons and was selling them on ebay for a while. He had them at $15 ea. IIRC. I ended up purchasing two. He wouldn't reduce the per-unit price if I bought several of them. He claimed that lots of people were willing to buy them, so there was no need to reduce his price. My regular ebay searches turned up him lowering the price after I bought two at $15 ea. Grrr. The seller's ebay id is mikesdavis -- he has some vintage gear up for sale now, but not the ribbons. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 21 12:38:03 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:38:03 -0600 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:41:08 +0100. <48FCDED4.60409@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <48FCDED4.60409 at axeside.co.uk>, Philip Belben writes: > >> They actually scan to the upper left corner of each character, then > >> sweep out the 5x7 dot matrix for that character, before adjusting the > >> x,y deflection to the upper left corner of the next character. > > > > I seem to recall the DEC VT11 (and thus GT40) did something similar. When > > it displayed a character it scanned a little raster at the appropriate > > place on the screen and used a normal dot-matrix character generator to > > turn the beam on and off. > > The Tektronix 4052 and 4006 (and presumaby 4051 and 4012) do this. > These machines all have storage-tube vector displays, but when you want > to display text, scan a little dot matrix of the character. [...] In all of these machines they do *not* send characters to the monitor. They send dots or vectors. Just like in any character based terminal, there is a circuit that takes a character and turns it into a pixel or vector representation and *that* is sent to the monitor. Monitors don't eat characters as input. Even an LCD display does not eat characters directly, there is always something before it that turns a character into a dot or segment pattern. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Oct 21 13:03:41 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:03:41 -0500 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:41:08 +0100.<48FCDED4.60409@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: >> The Tektronix 4052 and 4006 (and presumaby 4051 and 4012) do this. >> These machines all have storage-tube vector displays, but when you want >> to display text, scan a little dot matrix of the character. [...] > >In all of these machines they do *not* send characters to the monitor. >They send dots or vectors. Just like in any character based terminal, >there is a circuit that takes a character and turns it into a pixel or >vector representation and *that* is sent to the monitor. Monitors >don't eat characters as input. Not unless they are a Charactron -- which was mentioned earlier. Wikipedia has a good description. paul From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 21 13:24:55 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:24:55 -0700 Subject: Graphical developement environment for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <95838e090810210611j556e6846v66a8fe70836bc20a@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090810210608w5edd2d4byf3b6aa18b1b8bc60@mail.gmail.com> <95838e090810210611j556e6846v66a8fe70836bc20a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I tried it on Ubuntu with Wine and on Vista - both places, I get a never-ending stream of assertions, all with the same message: "Assertion fehlges (c:\progs\pdp11gui\FormExecuteU.pas, Zeile 134)". FWIW -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Maddison Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 6:12 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Graphical developement environment for PDP-11 2008/10/21 Steve Maddison : > Hi all, > > I'm posting this on behalf of > Sorry about that - try again... ;-) Here's a message on behalf of Joerg Hoppe (currently having trouble registering on the list). Cheers, Steve ------ classiccmp message ------------------- Hi, I developed a graphical developement environment for PDP-11's. It's name is "PDP11GUI". Since it is spreading on the net already, I'm forced to announce it early. Status is "mostly beta". I begun building it in spring 2008 as a tool for my own 11/44 restauration project, but it quickly developed it's own momentum. Key features: - interfaces to 11/44 and SimH, ODT interface is under development. - interfaces through physical COM ports or via telnet. - visual display and manipulation of memory content - symbolic display and manipulation of I/O registers and bits. - can assemble and deposit MACRO-11 programs - can Run/Stop/Single step through code, displays execution position in source code and/or disassembly - can also be operated through photorealistic simulated PDP11/70 panel. - I/O page register scanner - Memory loader - 11/44 micro code display - MS Windows MDI application. - Free for non-commercial use. It is free for non-commercial use, download at http://www.j-hoppe.de/PDP-11/Resources/setup.exe Mandatory documentation at www.j-hoppe.de/pdp11gui.html Enjoy! Joerg Hoppe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 21 12:54:16 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:54:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <48FCDED4.60409@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Oct 20, 8 08:41:08 pm Message-ID: [Raster-scan characters on a vector display] > The Tektronix 4052 and 4006 (and presumaby 4051 and 4012) do this. > These machines all have storage-tube vector displays, but when you want > to display text, scan a little dot matrix of the character. The 4052 at > least can put this little dot matrix at any addressable point on the > screen, not limited by the character block spacing or even (AFAIK) the > dot matrix spacing. I believe that's true of the VT11 too. You can put a character wherever you want it . > > (The 4014 and 4054, iirc, drew the characters in a line draw font, which > meant they could be scrolled or rotated. I don't have either... yet) Interesting. I knew the main differnce between the 4051 and 4052 (processor goes from a 6800 to a oard of 2900-series chips implementing most of the 6800 instruction set). But I assumed the 4054 was just a 4052 with a larger CRT. I didn't realise there were design differences too. Not that it matters to me. I don't have any of them, and I don;t think I'm likely to find them -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 21 13:44:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:44:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: from "Paul_Koning@dell.com" at Oct 21, 8 01:03:41 pm Message-ID: > >vector representation and *that* is sent to the monitor. Monitors > >don't eat characters as input. Depends on how you define 'monitor' I have a classic computer where the box that most people would call the 'monitor' (in that it contains the CRT and stacks on top of the part that has the keyboard, cartridge tape drives, printer, inteface slots, etc) contains a fair amoumt of digital logic. Including a graphics processor/memory and the character generator/atribute logic for the text mode display (the video mmeory and line buffer are in the main part of the machine). The machine? An HP9845B But I will agree that no _CRT_ (apart from charactrons and closely related devices) accept characters directly -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 21 15:27:14 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:27:14 -0600 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:03:41 -0500. Message-ID: In article , writes: > >vector representation and *that* is sent to the monitor. Monitors > >don't eat characters as input. > > Not unless they are a Charactron [...] ...which is not a monitor, so no characters are not sent to monitors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 21 15:28:20 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:28:20 -0600 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:44:11 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > >vector representation and *that* is sent to the monitor. Monitors > > >don't eat characters as input. > > Depends on how you define 'monitor' For this list: "monitor" is any asshole checking messages to look for ways in which they can deliberately misinterpret commonly held definitions. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Oct 21 15:32:22 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:32:22 -0500 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:03:41 -0500. Message-ID: >In article , > writes: > >> >vector representation and *that* is sent to the monitor. Monitors >> >don't eat characters as input. >> >> Not unless they are a Charactron [...] > >...which is not a monitor, so no characters are not sent to monitors. Sure it is. Wikipedia mentions it was used as a display device on SAGE. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 21 13:01:22 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:01:22 -0700 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <48FDB682.19000.1A30B12D@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2008 at 11:34, Richard wrote: > A guy apparently found a case of ribbons and was selling them on ebay > for a while. He had them at $15 ea. IIRC. I ended up purchasing two. > He wouldn't reduce the per-unit price if I bought several of them. He > claimed that lots of people were willing to buy them, so there was no > need to reduce his price. My regular ebay searches turned up him > lowering the price after I bought two at $15 ea. Grrr. The seller's > ebay id is mikesdavis -- he has some vintage gear up for sale now, but > not the ribbons. Can the cartridges be reloaded? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 21 15:37:56 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:37:56 -0600 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:32:22 -0500. Message-ID: In article , writes: > Sure it is. Wikipedia mentions it was used as a display device on SAGE. While all monitors are display devices, not all display devices are monitors. Seriously guys, does anyone have anything useful to contribute on this subject or do you all just sit around on your asses waiting for a chance to nitpick on definitions of words? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 21 15:39:02 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:39:02 -0600 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:01:22 -0700. <48FDB682.19000.1A30B12D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <48FDB682.19000.1A30B12D at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Can the cartridges be reloaded? Earlier on the thread, some success was reported for re-inking a ribbon, although the results were less than what you'd get with a new ribbon. If you have an existing ribbon cartridge, I'd say re-inking is going to be your best bet at this point. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Oct 21 15:46:26 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:46:26 -0500 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:32:22 -0500. Message-ID: I give up. I can't figure out how you define "monitor". Is it a raster-scan CRT? If so, then yes, it doesn't directly do characters. Is it a vector-only CRT? If so, then again it doesn't directly do characters. Is it a vacuum tube with a phosphor face intended as an output device viewed by humans? That would be the definition I would assume you're using. If so, then the SAGE displays fit: those are direct view tubes that can display both vectors and characters, and the character display is a Charactron. paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 4:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In article , writes: > Sure it is. Wikipedia mentions it was used as a display device on SAGE. While all monitors are display devices, not all display devices are monitors. Seriously guys, does anyone have anything useful to contribute on this subject or do you all just sit around on your asses waiting for a chance to nitpick on definitions of words? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 21 16:21:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:21:20 -0700 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <48FDE560.10606.1AE7C442@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2008 at 14:39, Richard wrote: > Earlier on the thread, some success was reported for re-inking a > ribbon, although the results were less than what you'd get with a new > ribbon. > > If you have an existing ribbon cartridge, I'd say re-inking is going > to be your best bet at this point. Not exactly what I had in mind. I've had some oddball ribbon carts in the past and have scavenged the ribbon from more widely-available carts and used it to refill the hard-to-get-ones, bringing them essentially back to like-new condition. I've had less-than-wonderful results with re-inking, particularly where the polyester fabric of the ribbon has been worn away. I've got some large HP-style line-printer carts that are stuffed with single-strike film ribbon for NLQ use that I've found can be refilled with ordinary typewriter (IIRC, IBM Selectric) film ribbon quite successfully. In the case of fabric ribbon as an endless loop, ends can be ultrasonically welded or even stitched together. Cheers, Chuck From locutus at puscii.nl Tue Oct 21 16:32:53 2008 From: locutus at puscii.nl (locutus at puscii.nl) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:32:53 +0200 Subject: Graphical developement environment for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090810210608w5edd2d4byf3b6aa18b1b8bc60@mail.gmail.com> <95838e090810210611j556e6846v66a8fe70836bc20a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <874p35fxbu.wl%locutus@puscii.nl> I tried it on Windows XP / SP2, and got a exception on startup, and after that exactly the same error msg. I'd love to see this run btw ;-) From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 21 16:34:56 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:34:56 -0700 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:32:22 -0500. Message-ID: Someone touched on this before and, despite the risk of being either slammed with dissent or nibbled to death by ducks, I'm going to restate, reiterate and otherwise pontificate. IMHO, the concept of 'graphical display' turns on what constructs were presented by the device to the programmer for manipulating the display. Something like a VT100 allows the programmer to ask for representations of characters; the fact that someone created either an image of Snoopy or a pair of double-Ds by selecting the sequence of characters does not change the nature of the display primitive: textual. OTOH, some systems offered the ability to ask that a point be plotted at (X,Y), that a line of length N be drawn from (X1,Y1) to (X2, Y2) (or equivalent polar coordinates), and perhaps other graphical primitives (circles, etc.). That is a graphical display. Some offered both, e.g. the Tektronix 4010, but the textual display was an abstraction on top of the underlying graphical display. It could be argued that a raster-scan text display is likewise an abstraction on top of an underlying graphical display, but I would disagree: the device as presented to a programmer (again, think VT100) does not allow for manipulation of objects at a lower level than character selection. You cannot access the dot-level of a VT100 from the computer. The raster-scan text display is an *implementation*, not an abstraction. That doesn't mean a raster-scan display can't be a graphical display, obviously, but again it turns on what the devices lets you write code to do. Anyway, that's how I think of it, FWIW. I'm going to go do something meaningful now.... -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul_Koning at dell.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 1:46 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] I give up. I can't figure out how you define "monitor". Is it a raster-scan CRT? If so, then yes, it doesn't directly do characters. Is it a vector-only CRT? If so, then again it doesn't directly do characters. Is it a vacuum tube with a phosphor face intended as an output device viewed by humans? That would be the definition I would assume you're using. If so, then the SAGE displays fit: those are direct view tubes that can display both vectors and characters, and the character display is a Charactron. paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 4:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In article , writes: > Sure it is. Wikipedia mentions it was used as a display device on SAGE. While all monitors are display devices, not all display devices are monitors. Seriously guys, does anyone have anything useful to contribute on this subject or do you all just sit around on your asses waiting for a chance to nitpick on definitions of words? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 16:46:18 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:46:18 -0400 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FE4DAA.70407@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article , > writes: > >> Sure it is. Wikipedia mentions it was used as a display device on SAGE. > > While all monitors are display devices, not all display devices are > monitors. > > Seriously guys, does anyone have anything useful to contribute on this > subject or do you all just sit around on your asses waiting for a > chance to nitpick on definitions of words? If a charactron isn't a monitor, then CGA, MDA, EGA and DVI screens aren't either. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 16:47:35 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:47:35 -0400 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Depends on how you define 'monitor' > > For this list: "monitor" is any asshole checking messages to look for > ways in which they can deliberately misinterpret commonly held > definitions. This needs to be carved into stone. It is possibly the wisest thing I have ever heard on this list. -- Will From aserlanger at earthlink.net Tue Oct 21 16:56:34 2008 From: aserlanger at earthlink.net (aserlanger at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:56:34 -0400 Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: References: <200810211700.m9LH0rug046778@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7999A54562EB4F91967B008F5BE729BE@hpmpc01> Abandoned the idea, maybe, but kept the money. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Erwin Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:29 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: imsai.net > > Stay away, stay away! This guy has a track record of misrepresenting his > products, talking your money, and then ... nothing. No refund, no regrets, > nothing. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:06 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: imsai.net > > > Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net regarding the Series 2 > machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive chassis, but that's > gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. I had heard something to this affect as well. Several people had placed orders and paid deposits and all went into a black hole. The word on the street was that he abandoned the idea but left the web site up. I sent him email about six months ago asking about one of his replacement part kits for the Imsai and never got a response back. From mardy at voysys.com Tue Oct 21 17:19:28 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:19:28 -0400 Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Jeff Erwin wrote: > >> >> Stay away, stay away! This guy has a track record of >> misrepresenting his >> products, talking your money, and then ... nothing. No refund, no >> regrets, >> nothing. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >> ] >> On Behalf Of David Griffith >> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:06 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: imsai.net >> >> >> Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net regarding the >> Series 2 >> machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive chassis, but >> that's >> gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. > > I had heard something to this affect as well. Several people had > placed > orders and paid deposits and all went into a black hole. The word > on the > street was that he abandoned the idea but left the web site up. I > sent him > email about six months ago asking about one of his replacement part > kits for > the Imsai and never got a response back. > > I've heard the horror stories as well, but actually did have a fairly pleasant experience with Todd. Back in January of this year I ordered a bunch of replacement IMSAI parts, switch caps, replacement front panels, sheet metal, etc. I first e-mailed him asking about price and availability. I received a quick response with details regarding pricing and shipping costs. After I placed the order I did have to prod him once, to which he quickly apologized for the delay and then proceeded to ship the items. All I can suggest is to try and contact him. If he does offer to sell what you are looking for, use PayPal. That way, if there is an issue later on, you can probably get PayPal to arbitrate. -Mardy From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Oct 21 17:35:39 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:35:39 -0400 Subject: RTS-8 Message-ID: <48FE593B.8010109@nktelco.net> Anybody here have direct experience with RTS-8? I have a PDP-8/e, some digital and analog I/O cards and have toyed with the idea of trying to get RTS-8 running to control something (not sure what exactly). I think DECnet for the PDP-8 requires RTS-8 too. -chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Oct 21 17:53:00 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:53:00 +0000 Subject: RTS-8 In-Reply-To: <48FE593B.8010109@nktelco.net> References: <48FE593B.8010109@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <20081021225300.GA4220@usap.gov> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 06:35:39PM -0400, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Anybody here have direct experience with RTS-8? Some, from 20+ years ago. > I have a PDP-8/e, some digital and analog I/O cards and have toyed with > the idea of trying to get RTS-8 running to control something (not sure > what exactly). I did not get that far into it - I built it on an -8/m at Ohio State (they used to have a pair of /ms to collect and analyze data from a mass spectrometer for the purpose of looking for performance enhancing drugs in horse urine for the state racing commission), and on my own -8/a w/KT8A and 128kW of MOS mem. Mostly, I have built RTS-8 per the instructions, including an example program or two, and did get the OS/8 task working on it with little effort. I never attempted to do any "real" work or development on it, since, at the time, it was to me a curiosity, and didn't give me anything I couldn't already get from an ordinary OS/8 system. If I could have run two or more OS/8 tasks (which I do not think is possible by default), that would have made it more interesting to me. If you have all the sources and the contemporary docs, my recollection is that everything builds and runs as documented. I do not remember any 'gotchas' or any undocumented tricks. ISTR that it was mostly useful as a starting point for your own development. There were a few sample programs in the docs to demonstrate how to work with co-routines and how to pass messages between tasks, but essentially no ready-to-roll-out applications for it. I also have a memory that by the time v3 came out, the expected platform was an -8/a w/more than 32kW, but that was mostly so you could run an OS/8 task with the full 32kW for it and still have some core left over for RTS-8 itself. If you can get away with 16kW or 24kW for OS/8 (no ADVENT for you!), then it should run fine on a maxxed-out -8/e. If you don't care about running an OS/8 task while your code is frobbing your I/O cards, then memory is less of an issue. > I think DECnet for the PDP-8 requires RTS-8 too. I believe that is the case, but until this year, I hadn't ever run across more then mere mention of DECnet-8. Only recently, I have at least found (on bitsavers or one of the other major repositories) some docs on it. I looked for it 22 years ago, but was unable to trace it down then. I don't believe it does much more than simple message and file passing, and I don't think it's compatible with DECnet on any other platform, but it _is_ vendor-supplied basic networking for an otherwise ignored architecture. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-Oct-2008 at 22:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.6 F (-43.1 C) Windchill -70.2 F (-56.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 342 Barometer 679.5 mb (10647 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 21 18:20:18 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081021161825.O62734@shell.lmi.net> > ...which is not a monitor, so no characters are not sent to monitors. neither are pixels. On MOST computers, both characters and pixels exist only as a data structure in "video memory". Additional circuitry reads that data and creates a video signal. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 21 18:37:25 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RTS-8 In-Reply-To: <20081021225300.GA4220@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200810212337.m9LNbPgj029382@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I think DECnet for the PDP-8 requires RTS-8 too. > > I believe that is the case, but until this year, I hadn't ever run > across more then mere mention of DECnet-8. Only recently, I have > at least found (on bitsavers or one of the other major repositories) > some docs on it. I looked for it 22 years ago, but was unable to > trace it down then. > > I don't believe it does much more than simple message and file > passing, and I don't think it's compatible with DECnet on any > other platform, but it _is_ vendor-supplied basic networking > for an otherwise ignored architecture. Does anyone actually have a copy of the DECnet-8 software, or is it like the DECnet for RT-11 software I've been searching for years for? Though I do know one person that *might* have a copy of DECnet for RT-11. They just haven't been able to get dug back to where it might be last I checked. Zane From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 21 18:42:09 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:42:09 -0600 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:21:20 -0700. <48FDE560.10606.1AE7C442@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <48FDE560.10606.1AE7C442 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Not exactly what I had in mind. I've had some oddball ribbon carts > in the past and have scavenged the ribbon from more widely-available > carts and used it to refill the hard-to-get-ones, bringing them > essentially back to like-new condition. Yeah, that might be a better route unless you can find someone selling NOS ribbons as I did. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Oct 21 18:48:43 2008 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:48:43 -0400 Subject: hero robots References: Message-ID: <07CF6B8499E24ACB9A9212B8233B02B8@screamer> I have a complete Hero 2000, needs a new battery, wrist calibration, and a minor repair to the AC charger station DC output cable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "brian s" To: Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: hero robots Hi I saw an older post about a couple of old hero robots for sale. Did you ever sell them? thanks brian _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 18:54:00 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:54:00 -0400 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 21 October 2008 16:39, Richard wrote: > In article <48FDB682.19000.1A30B12D at cclist.sydex.com>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > Can the cartridges be reloaded? > > Earlier on the thread, some success was reported for re-inking a > ribbon, although the results were less than what you'd get with a new > ribbon. > > If you have an existing ribbon cartridge, I'd say re-inking is going > to be your best bet at this point. And while we're on that, I remember those re-inking kits that were popular some years back. Around the time when the c64 was too. :-) Are they even being sold any more? Anybody have opinions on spraying a ribbon with WD-40? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 21 19:15:41 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20081021171510.W65945@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Anybody have opinions on spraying a ribbon with WD-40? If you're going to that effort, why not spray it with INK? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 21 19:18:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:18:33 -0700 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48FE0EE9.24316.1B8A012E@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2008 at 19:54, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > And while we're on that, I remember those re-inking kits that were popular > some years back. Around the time when the c64 was too. :-) > > Are they even being sold any more? Yup. http://www.cfriends.com/dotmat.html Computer Friends is apparently still selling the MacInker--I've got one from many years ago. > Anybody have opinions on spraying a ribbon with WD-40? If you've got a new-ish dry ribbon, it works, for at least a couple of times. Very messy, however. It doesn't do that well on old worn ribbons though. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 19:23:27 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <20081021171510.W65945@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <960776.11024.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Anybody have opinions on spraying a ribbon with WD-40? > > If you're going to that effort, why not spray it with > INK? Because WD-40 is easier :) I don't remember spraying a ribbon DIRECTLY with WD-40. The trick was to spray the WD-40 into a ziplock bag, then put the ribbon cartridge in there, and seal it for a day or two. The WD-40 vapors would cause the ink that was already on the ribbon to soften and flow, and 'fill in' the spots where the ink had been used up. It was a stopgap solution, and of course, does nothing for a truly worn-out ribbon. -Ian From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Oct 21 19:24:59 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:24:59 +0000 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <48FE0EE9.24316.1B8A012E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> <48FE0EE9.24316.1B8A012E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081022002459.GA13247@usap.gov> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 05:18:33PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Oct 2008 at 19:54, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Anybody have opinions on spraying a ribbon with WD-40? > > If you've got a new-ish dry ribbon, it works, for at least a couple > of times. Very messy, however. It doesn't do that well on old worn > ribbons though. Since I know I have some new-in-bag ribbons that will work with an ASR-33 (along with many classic dot matrix printers), and they are old enough that I expect they are dried out, is there a better substance than WD-40 to rehydrate the ink? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2008 at 00:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -47.6 F (-44.2 C) Windchill -75.8 F (-59.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.3 kts Grid 351 Barometer 679.1 mb (10662 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 21 20:04:30 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:04:30 -0700 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <48FE19AE.20407.1BB4121A@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2008 at 17:42, Richard wrote: > Yeah, that might be a better route unless you can find someone selling > NOS ribbons as I did. Computer Friends sells bulk ribbon by the yard. Might be worth buying some and keeping it tightly wrapped in your freezer should the need arise. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 20:11:24 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:11:24 -0400 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <20081021171510.W65945@shell.lmi.net> References: <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> <20081021171510.W65945@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200810212111.25077.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 21 October 2008 20:15, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Anybody have opinions on spraying a ribbon with WD-40? > > If you're going to that effort, why not spray it with INK? Ink being a pigment and some sort of a solvent, when a ribbon dries out there's plenty of pigment there already, it just needs a bit of solvent. The one time I tried it the results were surprisingly good, for a while. Then pushing my luck a bit further I repeated the application. I was using a rebuilt printhead at that time and the front face of it got loose, the company I was getting them from stood behind it. I still have one of their rebuilds in my old Oki 92. :-) And besides which, I'm not aware of any ink available in spray cans like that, is it? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 20:13:23 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:13:23 -0400 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <960776.11024.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <960776.11024.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200810212113.23775.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 21 October 2008 20:23, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Anybody have opinions on spraying a ribbon with WD-40? > > > > If you're going to that effort, why not spray it with > > INK? > > Because WD-40 is easier :) > > I don't remember spraying a ribbon DIRECTLY with WD-40. The trick was to > spray the WD-40 into a ziplock bag, then put the ribbon cartridge in there, > and seal it for a day or two. The WD-40 vapors would cause the ink that was > already on the ribbon to soften and flow, and 'fill in' the spots where the > ink had been used up. It was a stopgap solution, and of course, does > nothing for a truly worn-out ribbon. I'll have to remember that approach. I have a *pile* of dot matrix printers that have been sitting around for a while, and only need to print out a test page on each of them, to sell 'em. Got plenty of WD40 at the garage where I'm storing this stuff at, too. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 20:15:54 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:15:54 -0400 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <20081022002459.GA13247@usap.gov> References: <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> <48FE0EE9.24316.1B8A012E@cclist.sydex.com> <20081022002459.GA13247@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200810212115.54499.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 21 October 2008 20:24, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 05:18:33PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 21 Oct 2008 at 19:54, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > Anybody have opinions on spraying a ribbon with WD-40? > > > > If you've got a new-ish dry ribbon, it works, for at least a couple > > of times. Very messy, however. It doesn't do that well on old worn > > ribbons though. > > Since I know I have some new-in-bag ribbons that will work with an ASR-33 > (along with many classic dot matrix printers), and they are old enough that > I expect they are dried out, is there a better substance than WD-40 to > rehydrate the ink? Probably. The solution recommended with putting some in a ziploc bag with the ribbon sounds good. WD-40 is only "Petroleumn Distillates" and kerosene, and it's probably the latter that does the trick. I'd imagine that the former is what would tend to gum things up... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 21 20:33:42 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <200810212111.25077.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200810211954.00872.rtellason@verizon.net> <20081021171510.W65945@shell.lmi.net> <200810212111.25077.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20081021182139.E65945@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > And besides which, I'm not aware of any ink available in spray cans like > that, is it? If there is, I don't know where to find it. But, I have had good results using "roll-on stamp pad inker"s. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 21:14:05 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:14:05 -0400 Subject: Teletype Model 43 ribbons (and old ribbons in general...) In-Reply-To: <20081021182139.E65945@shell.lmi.net> References: <200810212111.25077.rtellason@verizon.net> <20081021182139.E65945@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200810212214.05993.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 21 October 2008 21:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > And besides which, I'm not aware of any ink available in spray cans like > > that, is it? > > If there is, I don't know where to find it. > > But, I have had good results using "roll-on stamp pad inker"s. And I think I still have one of those in my desk drawer... Dunno why, since there aren't any stamp pads in there, and haven't been any stamps for a *really* long time. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 21 21:26:56 2008 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:26:56 -0400 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FE8F70.80602@world.std.com> Tony Duell wrote: > [Raster-scan characters on a vector display] > >> The Tektronix 4052 and 4006 (and presumaby 4051 and 4012) do this. >> These machines all have storage-tube vector displays, but when you want >> to display text, scan a little dot matrix of the character. The 4052 at >> least can put this little dot matrix at any addressable point on the >> screen, not limited by the character block spacing or even (AFAIK) the >> dot matrix spacing. > > I believe that's true of the VT11 too. You can put a character wherever > you want it . Keep in mind that the VT11 is a second processor which is reading through the same main memory as the PDP-11 processor. Any vectors or characters are refreshed with every pass through the "display file" which is simply the list of display commands in memory. All one needs to do to move the vectors or text is to alter the data for the beam positioning commands, and viola, the text or vectors 'move' on the next refresh. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 developer (and developer of some programs which did simple circuit design and test using the GT40) From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 21 21:37:00 2008 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:37:00 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals In-Reply-To: <48FE18DA.8060402@spies.com> References: <48FE18DA.8060402@spies.com> Message-ID: <48FE91CC.9050703@world.std.com> There was also a pdp-11 version of spacewar written by a college friend of mine. It was written to run on the 11/40 at WPI (which also had a VT11 and VR17 display). Originally it was written to use the switches for thrust, rotate and fire. Later, we built some boxes with two three-position toggle switches and a mometary pushbutton, and they used batteries and a resistor network to provide power to a set of ADCs on a Lab Peripheral System (LPS) which was also on the machine. Later, when both Frank and I were working at DEC, we got ahold of a few DR11-C parallel I/O boards and built some new boxes which were hard-wired to the boards and which simply turned on bits of the input side, which the program was modified to read from. A lot of hours were spent playing that game at WPI in the wee hours of the night... Al Kossow wrote: > Here is part of an oral history I recorded with Steve Russel last > August which discusses how the Spacewar! program works internally. > > > Exerpt of an oral history of Steve Russell > August 2008 > CHM Reference Number X4970.2008 > (C) 2008 Computer History Museum > > > Russell: Anyway, the PDP-1 arrived, and Marvin Minsky wrote the tripos > demonstration, generally called the Minskytron, and there was > the famous weekend > where the mob of undergraduates transcribed the macro > assembler from TX-0 to the > PDP-1, because they didn't like FRAP. And then fairly quickly > thereafter, they > wrote DDT and connected up the macro symbols to DDT. So that > was all sort of in > place by the middle of the fall of 1961. And the combination > of the Minskytron and > having DDT with interactive debugging with symbols was very > tempting. I don't > remember the exact order of things, but I'm pretty sure I > started talking up a better > demonstration program than the Minskytron, and eventually, > Alan Kotok went up > to Maynard and collected the sine and cosine routines from > DECUS, presented > them to me, and said, "Okay, here are the sine and cosine > routines; now what's your > excuse?" And I discovered I had run out of excuses; I had to > actually think. And so > I started work and figured out the basic trick of Spacewar! > display which is that you > only need to calculate a unit vector pointing in the direction > of the spaceship. And > you can express everything else the spaceship does, and the > outline of the spaceship > in terms of that unit vector, suitably scaled. So it's > basically a lot of addition in the > usual program upkeep. > > Kossow: Do you want to just give an overview, then, of how Spacewar! > actually > works? > > Russell: It's one big loop, and the loop is on the displayable objects. > And I called > them displayable objects, although I didn't know about object > orientation or object- > oriented programming at the time. > > Kossow: So you have the sun-- > > Russell: Colliding objects, not displayable objects. The colliding > object is a space > ship, there are two of those. And that has a lot of extra data > with it. It shares the > position and velocity tables with all of the torpedoes and > explosions that are running > around. So there's just one big loop through the colliding > objects, and it looks at all > the higher-numbered colliding objects to see if there's a > collision, using an octagon > because you don't need to calculate the square root of > anything, you can do that by > work on X difference, Y difference, and X+Y difference-- > > Kossow: So the bounding box for the collision detection is an octagon? > > Russell: Yes. So it goes through, it sees if this object is colliding > with any higher- > numbered object. If it is, it replaces the calculation > routines. That's another thing > that every colliding object has, is a calculation routine. It > replaces the calculation > routine with the explosion calculation routine. And then > things take care of > themselves. Then, after it's decided whether it's an explosion > or not, it goes off to > the calculation routine. And the calculation routine updates > the position, since all > colliding objects have velocity; and if it's a spaceship, it > worries about reading the > controls and updating the other things about the spaceship in > deciding whether to > launch a torpedo or not. And if a torpedo needs to be > launched, it searches up the > colliding object table for an empty slot, indicated by having > no calculation routine. > It searches up the table for an empty slot, puts a torpedo > calculation routine there, > and the spaceship position plus the suitable increments, so it > won't run into its > torpedo, and of the velocity of the spaceship plus an > increment for the torpedo, and > it goes on. When that the main loop gets done, you go off and > do some star display > and display the sun, and calculate -- and part of the > spaceship calculation is to > calculate the effect of gravity on the spaceship. Originally, > there wasn't any gravity, > and I had an interpreter, which interpreted the outline > description, and Dan > Edwards, sometime in late 1961 or early 1962, looked at that > code and decided if he > could write a special purpose compiler which would compile > precisely the right > code, and proceeded to. And there's one compiled outline for > each spaceship; each > spaceship actually does half of the spaceship outline and then > you twiddle the > vectors and do the other half. That keeps the display running > just as fast as it can. > That gives time to calculate the effect of gravity on the two > spaceships, but not on > the torpedoes. So we decided that they were photon torpedoes > not affected by > gravity. > > Kossow: So when the explosion routine starts, it continues calculating > motion, so > the explosion moves? > > Russell: Yes. If you see two spaceships collide, if you watch closely, > you will see > that there are two explosions that continue off in the > direction that the two > spaceships were going. There is another number in the table > for all colliding > objects, which is the size. And this is, roughly speaking, > proportional to the amount > of computing it takes to compute that object. And at the end > of the loop, as you go > through the main loop, you accumulate the sizes also; and so > at the end of the loop, > there's fritter away time loop that attempts to keep the frame > rate approximately > constant. It doesn't do a wonderful job; it's visually > adequate, but God help you > when you try to take a movie of it. > > Kossow: One of the complaints with all modern kids trying to play it > now is > that it's TOO SLOW. > > Russell: Kids who are used to something like Asteroids seem to think > that. But > when we do the demos, we get a number of people who seem to be > still quite > addicted to it with the old, slow version. Now, that was > always a complaint; the > reason that all the parameters got accumulated in the first > page of the listing, which > says you can put that first page of the listing of the > console, and anyone who wanted > to try a different set of parameters could. But the ones that > were compiled in or > assembled in were the ones that I thought were good. Now it > turns out I'm not a > representative arcade game player, and so my version of the > parameters is slower > and gives more opportunity for marksmanship than the arcade > version. > > Kossow: Right, that's the whole thing with gravity and doing the, > what's that called, > where you whip around the sun? Does it have a name, where you > whip around the > sun and you shoot? > > Russell: The closest name is the "CBS maneuver" is what happens when > two lazy > experts fight each other, which is they both turn at right > angles to the sun, and fire > for 3.5 or 4 seconds, so they're now in stable orbits, and > they know it. And then they > turn at each other and start trying to place torpedoes where > they think the other one > is going to be. And so the trails turn into an eye around the > sun, and CBS used that > as a logo, so it got called the "CBS maneuver". You can-- one > of the spaceships can > go the other way around the sun, so that both ships meet on > the same side of the > sun. But that seems usually to have less chance of winning. > Not much less, but > somewhat less. > > Kossow: It's better that you stay on opposite sides, then? > > Russell: Yes. > > Kossow: And then at some point, you added hyperspace? > > Russell: Yes, and we realized that that was going-- I don't remember > whether we > actually had it. I may have had it for a little while with no > limit, but it became very > clear that someone who didn't understand could use hyperspace > to escape their > proper justice forever, and so we added the unreliability of > hyperfield generators > very quickly. One thing that Asteroids and the arcade > versions, the later arcade > versions of Spacewar! added, which actually was a big help, > especially with their > high acceleration rates, was "training mode" where space was > actually viscous. So > if you got your ship accelerated so that it was going across > the screen so fast you > couldn't understand what was going on, if you took your hands > off, the situation > would gradually become understandable. I don't think I would > have been persuaded > to do that in the original Spacewar! because it was > unrealistic. But it definitely > made it easier to learn. > > Kossow: So are there any other favorite anecdotes about Spacewar!, or > just the > spread of Spacewar!? > > Russell: Well, the "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"-- many > people saw > Spacewar! as, some people ask for copies of the source, and of > course we gave them > out because we very briefly considered trying to sell > Spacewar!. We realized the > only possible customer was Digital Equipment, and we also, on > a little reflection, > that they were too cheap to do it. So we gave it out to anyone > who wanted it, and > some people got the listing and thought about it, and by > reading it-- a lot of people > simply saw the game and had a computer that wasn't the PDP-1 > but did have a > display, and implemented Spacewar! their own way. I suspect > most of them figured > out the "basic trick", but I'm not sure. > > Kossow: What "basic trick" were you thinking of? > > Russell: That you could do everything based on the spaceship unit > vector. How are > you fixed for the source code for different implementations of > Spacewar!? > > Kossow: We have a few. I don't know if we have the PDP-10 version. We > have the > 12 version, and I think we have a PDP-7 version. > > Russell: I think Bob Saunders wrote the PDP-7 version. I think one 6 > version > simply ran on the PDP-1 simulator. I think there must have > been others, but I don't > know. Something for some history grad student to pursue. When > we were running a > demo for the Yelp event, there was one woman who had done > Spacewar! in turtle > graphics as a high school programming project, which she > wasn't too happy with. > She seemed to like the demo of the original Spacewar!. > > Kossow: So turtle graphics running on a micro or something like that? > > Russell: I didn't quiz her. I didn't have the opportunity to quiz her > further. > > Kossow: So she thought this version was better? > > Russell: No, she just thought it was nice to see the original. > > Kossow: So she was in her mid-20s? > > Russell: 20s or early 30s; probably 20s. The DEC field service story > where the > DEC production people got into the practice of loading > Spacewar! the last thing > before PDP-1 shipped, and field service would then unpack it, > make sure that > nothing horrible had happened, tryed turning on power, and > starting Spacewar!. > And if it worked, they would call the customer over and say, > "See, it works." If it > didn't work, then they'd worry about it. In the restoration > project, we had a little > reflection and we decided that probably if Spacewar! works, > just about everything > works, as far as machine instructions go. It doesn't guarantee > all the I/O gear works, > but it does multiply and divides, and just about every > instruction. So a lot of people > implemented Spacewar! just from knowing that it existed and > having seen it maybe > once. > > From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 21 21:39:57 2008 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:39:57 -0400 Subject: RTS-8 In-Reply-To: <200810212337.m9LNbPgj029382@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200810212337.m9LNbPgj029382@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <48FE927D.20007@world.std.com> DECNET for RT was phase-III only. I was on a project at one point to update it to Phase-IV and Ethernet, but the project got canned... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> I think DECnet for the PDP-8 requires RTS-8 too. >> I believe that is the case, but until this year, I hadn't ever run >> across more then mere mention of DECnet-8. Only recently, I have >> at least found (on bitsavers or one of the other major repositories) >> some docs on it. I looked for it 22 years ago, but was unable to >> trace it down then. >> >> I don't believe it does much more than simple message and file >> passing, and I don't think it's compatible with DECnet on any >> other platform, but it _is_ vendor-supplied basic networking >> for an otherwise ignored architecture. > > Does anyone actually have a copy of the DECnet-8 software, or is it like the > DECnet for RT-11 software I've been searching for years for? Though I do > know one person that *might* have a copy of DECnet for RT-11. They just > haven't been able to get dug back to where it might be last I checked. > > Zane > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Oct 22 00:19:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 05:19:10 +0000 Subject: RTS-8 In-Reply-To: <200810212337.m9LNbPgj029382@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20081021225300.GA4220@usap.gov> <200810212337.m9LNbPgj029382@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20081022051910.GA32155@usap.gov> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 04:37:25PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I believe that is the case, but until this year, I hadn't ever run > > across more then mere mention of DECnet-8. Only recently, I have > > at least found (on bitsavers or one of the other major repositories) > > some docs on it. I looked for it 22 years ago, but was unable to > > trace it down then. > > Does anyone actually have a copy of the DECnet-8 software? I would love to hear about it if a copy turns up. Now that I've had a chance to read the docs, I'm more interested now in trying it out than I was 20 years ago. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2008 at 04:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -46.5 F (-43.6 C) Windchill -75.0 F (-59.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.7 kts Grid 343 Barometer 678.3 mb (10692 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From chris at cdenham.freeserve.co.uk Tue Oct 21 03:04:11 2008 From: chris at cdenham.freeserve.co.uk (Chris Denham) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:04:11 +0100 Subject: Nascom In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20081020225608.012a2668@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20081020225608.012a2668@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <943rf4tk2c653dmidl74068dijrmnikted@4ax.com> Hi just dug an old nascom out of the loft cant remember where it came from , I switched it on and all the screen says is DCS-DOS2-DF0049 And that's it nothing else , is there a way to get into basic ? I suppose its trying to boot from disk but I aint got no disk drives for it .It would just be nice to get it to do something before I put it back in the loft . regards chris From j_hoppe at t-online.de Tue Oct 21 04:43:20 2008 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?J=F6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:43:20 +0200 Subject: PDP11GUI: a graphical diagnostic environment for PDP-11's Message-ID: <48FDA438.8020503@t-online.de> Hi, I developed a graphical developement environment for PDP-11's. It's name is "PDP11GUI". Since it is spreading on the net already, I'm forced to announce it early. Status is "mostly beta". I begun building it in spring 2008 as a tool for my own 11/44 restauration project, but it quickly developed it's own momentum. Key features: - interfaces to 11/44 and SimH, ODT interface is under development. - interfaces through physical COM ports or via telnet. - visual display and manipulation of memory content - symbolic display and manipulation of I/O registers and bits. - can assemble and deposit MACRO-11 programs - can Run/Stop/Single step through code, displays execution position in source code and/or disassembly - can also be operated through photorealistic simulated PDP11/70 panel. - I/O page register scanner - Memory loader - 11/44 micro code display - MS Windows MDI application. - Free for non-commercial use. It is free for non-commercial use, download at http://www.j-hoppe.de/PDP-11/Resources/setup.exe Mandatory documentation at www.j-hoppe.de/pdp11gui.html Enjoy! Joerg Hoppe From philip at axeside.co.uk Tue Oct 21 08:22:23 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:22:23 +0100 Subject: Old Computer Quiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FDD78F.4090000@axeside.co.uk> >> For the record I failed the 1st question which I know I should have got aft= >> er the recent discussion on Space War. I scored 8 out of 10, though with so= >> me questions only having 2 answers it's a bit 50:50! > > You beat me then :-). I got 7 out of 10. I got both games consoles wrong > (but then the only 2 games consoles I own are the G7000 and the > Vectrex...), and I'd never heard of an E-Mac. I didn't see the announcement on the list, but a colleague found it at work. We scored 8 between us - I knew the old computers (or could guess without difficulty, as with the PDP1), and he knew one of the games consoles, but we too hadn't heard of an E-mac. What the heck is an E-mac? Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Tue Oct 21 08:25:40 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:25:40 +0100 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: <48FCDED4.60409@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <48FDD854.2010607@axeside.co.uk> Christian Corti, quoting me: >> (The 4014 and 4054, iirc, drew the characters in a line draw font, >> which meant they could be scrolled or rotated. I don't have either... >> yet) > > The 4014 and 4015 draw characters like the 4006, 4010 and 4012. You can > address any valid point of the screen to display a character. A very > nice application for Tektronix terminals today is gnuplot ("set term > tek40xx"). In that case, what was the terminal that drew text in line-draw font on a big (4054-sized?) storage tube? When Tony and I were at Cambridge, there was one in the user area. Tony, do you remember what it was? Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Tue Oct 21 08:41:05 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:41:05 +0100 Subject: PET composite video adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FDDBF1.3050705@axeside.co.uk> > 10000uF = 10mF, of course. And 1000uF (a very common value) = 1mF. But > for some reason they're rarely written that way. I suspect that the abbreviation (outside the usual system of unit symbols and prefixes) MFD for microfarad had already become so common that nobody dared. It occurs to me that the mF in the video circuit might have been a mistranscribed uuF >> Reminds me of describing speeds as angstrom per fortnight. Infact, > > 'Furlongs per fortnight', please :-) Furlong per fortnight is roughly 0.1 mm/s, isn't it? What's that used for? Angstrom per fortnight isn't useful for anything, except possibly creep erosion of metal tracks on an ic. > Or, of course, the infamous 'attoparsec per microfortnight', which is > close to the 'inch per second' and is thus useful for measuring tape > speeds :-) I tend to normalise that with the multiplier prefix only in the denominator, as is recommended for SI units, but no-one else seems to. ISTR the conversion between ips and picoparsecs per fortnight is about 1.004, but I can't remember which way. In similar vein, I tend to quote lengths of magnetic tape spools in stadia. Philip. From a.financial.engineer at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 09:03:23 2008 From: a.financial.engineer at gmail.com (Financial Engineer) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:03:23 -0400 Subject: Transputer-based stuff on ebay Message-ID: In response to James regarding whether or not I will ship to UK. Yes, I will ship worldwide if: 1) Paypal is accepted 2) You pay for shipping of course... Note that there is going to be a HUGE lot of stuff that is going to be listed. There is just too many things and the we are moving. The wife is complaining too :-) I will of course keep some of the rarer transputer hardware, but majority of the other stuff is going. The books and documents I collected are massive and that will be the next to go up. I really hope someone in the newsgroup gets them as I really want these preserved and scanned (if possible)... From aek at spies.com Tue Oct 21 13:00:58 2008 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals Message-ID: <48FE18DA.8060402@spies.com> Here is part of an oral history I recorded with Steve Russel last August which discusses how the Spacewar! program works internally. Exerpt of an oral history of Steve Russell August 2008 CHM Reference Number X4970.2008 (C) 2008 Computer History Museum Russell: Anyway, the PDP-1 arrived, and Marvin Minsky wrote the tripos demonstration, generally called the Minskytron, and there was the famous weekend where the mob of undergraduates transcribed the macro assembler from TX-0 to the PDP-1, because they didn't like FRAP. And then fairly quickly thereafter, they wrote DDT and connected up the macro symbols to DDT. So that was all sort of in place by the middle of the fall of 1961. And the combination of the Minskytron and having DDT with interactive debugging with symbols was very tempting. I don't remember the exact order of things, but I'm pretty sure I started talking up a better demonstration program than the Minskytron, and eventually, Alan Kotok went up to Maynard and collected the sine and cosine routines from DECUS, presented them to me, and said, "Okay, here are the sine and cosine routines; now what's your excuse?" And I discovered I had run out of excuses; I had to actually think. And so I started work and figured out the basic trick of Spacewar! display which is that you only need to calculate a unit vector pointing in the direction of the spaceship. And you can express everything else the spaceship does, and the outline of the spaceship in terms of that unit vector, suitably scaled. So it's basically a lot of addition in the usual program upkeep. Kossow: Do you want to just give an overview, then, of how Spacewar! actually works? Russell: It's one big loop, and the loop is on the displayable objects. And I called them displayable objects, although I didn't know about object orientation or object- oriented programming at the time. Kossow: So you have the sun-- Russell: Colliding objects, not displayable objects. The colliding object is a space ship, there are two of those. And that has a lot of extra data with it. It shares the position and velocity tables with all of the torpedoes and explosions that are running around. So there's just one big loop through the colliding objects, and it looks at all the higher-numbered colliding objects to see if there's a collision, using an octagon because you don't need to calculate the square root of anything, you can do that by work on X difference, Y difference, and X+Y difference-- Kossow: So the bounding box for the collision detection is an octagon? Russell: Yes. So it goes through, it sees if this object is colliding with any higher- numbered object. If it is, it replaces the calculation routines. That's another thing that every colliding object has, is a calculation routine. It replaces the calculation routine with the explosion calculation routine. And then things take care of themselves. Then, after it's decided whether it's an explosion or not, it goes off to the calculation routine. And the calculation routine updates the position, since all colliding objects have velocity; and if it's a spaceship, it worries about reading the controls and updating the other things about the spaceship in deciding whether to launch a torpedo or not. And if a torpedo needs to be launched, it searches up the colliding object table for an empty slot, indicated by having no calculation routine. It searches up the table for an empty slot, puts a torpedo calculation routine there, and the spaceship position plus the suitable increments, so it won't run into its torpedo, and of the velocity of the spaceship plus an increment for the torpedo, and it goes on. When that the main loop gets done, you go off and do some star display and display the sun, and calculate -- and part of the spaceship calculation is to calculate the effect of gravity on the spaceship. Originally, there wasn't any gravity, and I had an interpreter, which interpreted the outline description, and Dan Edwards, sometime in late 1961 or early 1962, looked at that code and decided if he could write a special purpose compiler which would compile precisely the right code, and proceeded to. And there's one compiled outline for each spaceship; each spaceship actually does half of the spaceship outline and then you twiddle the vectors and do the other half. That keeps the display running just as fast as it can. That gives time to calculate the effect of gravity on the two spaceships, but not on the torpedoes. So we decided that they were photon torpedoes not affected by gravity. Kossow: So when the explosion routine starts, it continues calculating motion, so the explosion moves? Russell: Yes. If you see two spaceships collide, if you watch closely, you will see that there are two explosions that continue off in the direction that the two spaceships were going. There is another number in the table for all colliding objects, which is the size. And this is, roughly speaking, proportional to the amount of computing it takes to compute that object. And at the end of the loop, as you go through the main loop, you accumulate the sizes also; and so at the end of the loop, there's fritter away time loop that attempts to keep the frame rate approximately constant. It doesn't do a wonderful job; it's visually adequate, but God help you when you try to take a movie of it. Kossow: One of the complaints with all modern kids trying to play it now is that it's TOO SLOW. Russell: Kids who are used to something like Asteroids seem to think that. But when we do the demos, we get a number of people who seem to be still quite addicted to it with the old, slow version. Now, that was always a complaint; the reason that all the parameters got accumulated in the first page of the listing, which says you can put that first page of the listing of the console, and anyone who wanted to try a different set of parameters could. But the ones that were compiled in or assembled in were the ones that I thought were good. Now it turns out I'm not a representative arcade game player, and so my version of the parameters is slower and gives more opportunity for marksmanship than the arcade version. Kossow: Right, that's the whole thing with gravity and doing the, what's that called, where you whip around the sun? Does it have a name, where you whip around the sun and you shoot? Russell: The closest name is the "CBS maneuver" is what happens when two lazy experts fight each other, which is they both turn at right angles to the sun, and fire for 3.5 or 4 seconds, so they're now in stable orbits, and they know it. And then they turn at each other and start trying to place torpedoes where they think the other one is going to be. And so the trails turn into an eye around the sun, and CBS used that as a logo, so it got called the "CBS maneuver". You can-- one of the spaceships can go the other way around the sun, so that both ships meet on the same side of the sun. But that seems usually to have less chance of winning. Not much less, but somewhat less. Kossow: It's better that you stay on opposite sides, then? Russell: Yes. Kossow: And then at some point, you added hyperspace? Russell: Yes, and we realized that that was going-- I don't remember whether we actually had it. I may have had it for a little while with no limit, but it became very clear that someone who didn't understand could use hyperspace to escape their proper justice forever, and so we added the unreliability of hyperfield generators very quickly. One thing that Asteroids and the arcade versions, the later arcade versions of Spacewar! added, which actually was a big help, especially with their high acceleration rates, was "training mode" where space was actually viscous. So if you got your ship accelerated so that it was going across the screen so fast you couldn't understand what was going on, if you took your hands off, the situation would gradually become understandable. I don't think I would have been persuaded to do that in the original Spacewar! because it was unrealistic. But it definitely made it easier to learn. Kossow: So are there any other favorite anecdotes about Spacewar!, or just the spread of Spacewar!? Russell: Well, the "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"-- many people saw Spacewar! as, some people ask for copies of the source, and of course we gave them out because we very briefly considered trying to sell Spacewar!. We realized the only possible customer was Digital Equipment, and we also, on a little reflection, that they were too cheap to do it. So we gave it out to anyone who wanted it, and some people got the listing and thought about it, and by reading it-- a lot of people simply saw the game and had a computer that wasn't the PDP-1 but did have a display, and implemented Spacewar! their own way. I suspect most of them figured out the "basic trick", but I'm not sure. Kossow: What "basic trick" were you thinking of? Russell: That you could do everything based on the spaceship unit vector. How are you fixed for the source code for different implementations of Spacewar!? Kossow: We have a few. I don't know if we have the PDP-10 version. We have the 12 version, and I think we have a PDP-7 version. Russell: I think Bob Saunders wrote the PDP-7 version. I think one 6 version simply ran on the PDP-1 simulator. I think there must have been others, but I don't know. Something for some history grad student to pursue. When we were running a demo for the Yelp event, there was one woman who had done Spacewar! in turtle graphics as a high school programming project, which she wasn't too happy with. She seemed to like the demo of the original Spacewar!. Kossow: So turtle graphics running on a micro or something like that? Russell: I didn't quiz her. I didn't have the opportunity to quiz her further. Kossow: So she thought this version was better? Russell: No, she just thought it was nice to see the original. Kossow: So she was in her mid-20s? Russell: 20s or early 30s; probably 20s. The DEC field service story where the DEC production people got into the practice of loading Spacewar! the last thing before PDP-1 shipped, and field service would then unpack it, make sure that nothing horrible had happened, tryed turning on power, and starting Spacewar!. And if it worked, they would call the customer over and say, "See, it works." If it didn't work, then they'd worry about it. In the restoration project, we had a little reflection and we decided that probably if Spacewar! works, just about everything works, as far as machine instructions go. It doesn't guarantee all the I/O gear works, but it does multiply and divides, and just about every instruction. So a lot of people implemented Spacewar! just from knowing that it existed and having seen it maybe once. From jefferwin at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 13:28:42 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:28:42 -0700 Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: <200810211700.m9LH0rug046778@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > Stay away, stay away! This guy has a track record of misrepresenting his > products, talking your money, and then ... nothing. No refund, no regrets, > nothing. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:06 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: imsai.net > > > Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net regarding the Series 2 > machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive chassis, but that's > gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. I had heard something to this affect as well. Several people had placed orders and paid deposits and all went into a black hole. The word on the street was that he abandoned the idea but left the web site up. I sent him email about six months ago asking about one of his replacement part kits for the Imsai and never got a response back. From a.financial.engineer at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 21:02:43 2008 From: a.financial.engineer at gmail.com (Financial Engineer) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:02:43 -0400 Subject: KMAX Kuma Atari Transputer Development System on Ebay Message-ID: Kurt et al, For those Atari fans (and transputer fans as well), I just posted a KMAX TDS for you lads. EXTREMELY RARE. Far more than the Atari Transputer Workstation which can be found once in a while... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=260304127531&Category=4193&_trksid=p3907.m29 Good luck, more to come... From locutus at puscii.nl Wed Oct 22 06:33:27 2008 From: locutus at puscii.nl (locutus at puscii.nl) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:33:27 +0200 Subject: PDP11GUI: a graphical diagnostic environment for PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <48FDA438.8020503@t-online.de> References: <48FDA438.8020503@t-online.de> Message-ID: <873aiog8zc.wl%locutus@puscii.nl> Hello, if you havent read our original replies yet on the first post of this, on both Ubuntu with WINE, and Windows XP/SP2, installing the application works fine, but once you start it you get a exception (adress 005124F1 in modul pdpgui.exe read from 0000000c) if you just click OK, the application starts, and prompts for which connection setting you want, but then ends up in a infinite loop of spawning error msg boxes with "Assertion fehlges (C:\Progs\pdp11gui\FormExecuteU.pas, Zeile 134) >From your webpage, this looks like an awesome application, and i'm really looking forward to it! Best regards, and good luck with the debugging ;-) From djg at pdp8.net Wed Oct 22 06:54:04 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:54:04 -0400 Subject: RTS-8 Message-ID: <200810221154.m9MBs4C26194@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > Does anyone actually have a copy of the DECnet-8 software > I have disk images which seem to be it. http://www.pdp8online.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=decnet The first two are from disks which were labeled decnet 1 and decnet 2 All the RTS docs I have seen are from dbit. http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=rts ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/ I have never tried to use it. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Oct 22 07:23:41 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:23:41 +0000 Subject: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) In-Reply-To: <200810221154.m9MBs4C26194@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200810221154.m9MBs4C26194@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <20081022122341.GA7133@usap.gov> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 07:54:04AM -0400, djg at pdp8.net wrote: > > Does anyone actually have a copy of the DECnet-8 software > > > I have disk images which seem to be it. > http://www.pdp8online.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=decnet I will poke around in that tomorrow when our sat rises. > The first two are from disks which were labeled decnet 1 and decnet 2 Sounds promising. > All the RTS docs I have seen are from dbit. > http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=rts > ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/ After looking all day, I finally found the doc file I recently discovered (most likely from dbit). It's an ASCII file named 'decnet8.doc', internally designated "AA-5184A-TA", and happens to briefly reference a couple of other DEC docs, "DEC-08-ORTMA", and "DEC-8E-HMM3A". The primary doc file describes programs like TLK and LSN and NIP. TLK and LSN are a line-at-a-time messaging pair. NIP (Network Information Program) prints network status and diagnostic information. At first pass, DECNET/8 appears to support local traffic (process-to- process or terminal-to-terminal) as well as a variety of interfaces for node-to-node traffic. One list includes the KL8E, KL8J-A, KL8A, KL8M, DP8E (interprocessor buffer), and DKC8-A (parallel). So to amend my previous speculations, DECNET/8 appears to provide a basic messaging utility and user-written applications, but does not come with any bundled file transfer capabilities. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2008 at 12:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.4 F (-43.0 C) Windchill -74.5 F (-59.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.4 kts Grid 1 Barometer 677.0 mb (10742 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bob at jfcl.com Wed Oct 22 08:43:33 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:43:33 -0700 Subject: DECnet-RT (was RE: RTS-8) In-Reply-To: <48FE927D.20007@world.std.com> References: <200810212337.m9LNbPgj029382@onyx.spiritone.com> <48FE927D.20007@world.std.com> Message-ID: <002301c9344c$2d6bad00$88430700$@com> >DECNET for RT was phase-III only. I was on a project at one point to >update it to Phase-IV and Ethernet, but the project got canned... Can a Phase-III node talk to a Phase-IV node? Lack of Ethernet is inconvenient, but it's always possible to set up a DDCMP link (either sync or async) to another machine. Bob From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Oct 22 08:57:34 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:57:34 -0500 Subject: DECnet-RT (was RE: RTS-8) In-Reply-To: <002301c9344c$2d6bad00$88430700$@com> References: <200810212337.m9LNbPgj029382@onyx.spiritone.com><48FE927D.20007@world.std.com> <002301c9344c$2d6bad00$88430700$@com> Message-ID: >>DECNET for RT was phase-III only. I was on a project at one point to >>update it to Phase-IV and Ethernet, but the project got canned... > > Can a Phase-III node talk to a Phase-IV node? Lack of Ethernet is >inconvenient, but it's always possible to set up a DDCMP link (either sync >or async) to another machine. Yes, it can. With limitations -- a Phase III address is 8 bits so it can only reference nodes in its own area, and only node numbers 1-255 at that. Also, some apps are new with Phase IV, though the most interesting ones (set host, file access) existed in Phase III. paul From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 09:28:57 2008 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe-Jacques?=) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tru64 5.1 ISO Message-ID: Hello all, Does anyone here have a copy of Tru64 5.1? I need to get the last version that supported the Turbochannel architecture (i.e. DEC 3000 AXP and friends) and 5.1A and 5.1B have dropped it if I understand correctly. I'd take care of the licencing of course... I just need an ISO or something. Thanks! - Alex From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 09:35:49 2008 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe-Jacques?=) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tru64 5.1 ISO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sorry, according to the release notes of 5.1A, the Turbochannel architecture is *not* excluded. (To be exact, it is not included in the "retired hardware" section.) So 5.1A would do. On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: > Hello all, > > Does anyone here have a copy of Tru64 5.1? I need to get the last version > that supported the Turbochannel architecture (i.e. DEC 3000 AXP and friends) > and 5.1A and 5.1B have dropped it if I understand correctly. > > I'd take care of the licencing of course... I just need an ISO or something. > > Thanks! > - Alex > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 22 11:41:03 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:41:03 -0700 Subject: Nascom In-Reply-To: <943rf4tk2c653dmidl74068dijrmnikted@4ax.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20081020225608.012a2668@mail.30below.com>, <943rf4tk2c653dmidl74068dijrmnikted@4ax.com> Message-ID: <48FEF52F.5523.1F0D7C44@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2008 at 9:04, Chris Denham wrote: > Hi just dug an old nascom out of the loft cant remember where it > came from , I switched it on and all the screen says is > > DCS-DOS2-DF0049 > > And that's it nothing else , is there a way to get into basic ? I > suppose its trying to boot from disk but I aint got no disk drives for > it .It would just be nice to get it to do something before I put it > back in the loft . regards chris There's a ton of information on the N1 and N2 here: http://www.nascomhomepage.com/ I'd think that this would go far toward answering just about any question you might have. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 22 14:43:34 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:43:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: from "Paul_Koning@dell.com" at Oct 21, 8 03:46:26 pm Message-ID: > > I give up. I can't figure out how you define "monitor". Nor can I. It's clear (I hope) that the thing I use on my workbench with a raster-scanned CRT and a composite video input is a 'monitor' by any normal defintiion. It's equally clear to me that the DEC VT100 is not a monitor, it's a terminal (although it contains a monitor). But there are plenty of grey areas between them. > > Is it a raster-scan CRT? If so, then yes, it doesn't directly do characters. > > Is it a vector-only CRT? If so, then again it doesn't directly do characters. Try as I will, I can't think of a _CRT_ that can only be raster scanned or vector scanned. > Is it a vacuum tube with a phosphor face intended as an output device viewed by humans? That would be the definition I would assume you're using. If so, then the SAGE displays fit: those are direct view tubes that can display both vectors and characte rs, and the character display is a Charactron. Esactly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 22 14:38:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:38:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 21, 8 02:27:14 pm Message-ID: > > >vector representation and *that* is sent to the monitor. Monitors > > >don't eat characters as input. > > > > Not unless they are a Charactron [...] > > ...which is not a monitor, so no characters are not sent to monitors. You can, of course, use words to mean what you like, but it helps if we all know that definition. So could you please tell us what you mean by (video) monitor [1], what inputs it may have, and so on. [1] I put the 'video' in to avoid discussion of monitor programs, and the like. And what do you call the HP98780? -tony From lee_courtney at acm.org Wed Oct 22 11:26:53 2008 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals In-Reply-To: <48FE18DA.8060402@spies.com> Message-ID: <100541.90698.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Al, Very nice interview. Is there an audio of the entire interview available on the Museum web site, or Youtube? Lee Courtney --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 11:00 AM > Here is part of an oral history I recorded with Steve Russel > last > August which discusses how the Spacewar! program works > internally. > > > Exerpt of an oral history of Steve Russell > August 2008 > CHM Reference Number X4970.2008 > (C) 2008 Computer History Museum > > > Russell: Anyway, the PDP-1 arrived, and Marvin Minsky > wrote the tripos > demonstration, generally called the Minskytron, > and there was the famous weekend > where the mob of undergraduates transcribed the > macro assembler from TX-0 to the > PDP-1, because they didn't like FRAP. And > then fairly quickly thereafter, they > wrote DDT and connected up the macro symbols to > DDT. So that was all sort of in > place by the middle of the fall of 1961. And the > combination of the Minskytron and > having DDT with interactive debugging with > symbols was very tempting. I don't > remember the exact order of things, but I'm > pretty sure I started talking up a better > demonstration program than the Minskytron, and > eventually, Alan Kotok went up > to Maynard and collected the sine and cosine > routines from DECUS, presented > them to me, and said, "Okay, here are the > sine and cosine routines; now what's your > excuse?" And I discovered I had run out of > excuses; I had to actually think. And so > I started work and figured out the basic trick > of Spacewar! display which is that you > only need to calculate a unit vector pointing in > the direction of the spaceship. And > you can express everything else the spaceship > does, and the outline of the spaceship > in terms of that unit vector, suitably scaled. > So it's basically a lot of addition in the > usual program upkeep. > > Kossow: Do you want to just give an overview, then, of how > Spacewar! actually > works? > > Russell: It's one big loop, and the loop is on the > displayable objects. And I called > them displayable objects, although I didn't > know about object orientation or object- > oriented programming at the time. > > Kossow: So you have the sun-- > > Russell: Colliding objects, not displayable objects. The > colliding object is a space > ship, there are two of those. And that has a lot > of extra data with it. It shares the > position and velocity tables with all of the > torpedoes and explosions that are running > around. So there's just one big loop through > the colliding objects, and it looks at all > the higher-numbered colliding objects to see if > there's a collision, using an octagon > because you don't need to calculate the > square root of anything, you can do that by > work on X difference, Y difference, and X+Y > difference-- > > Kossow: So the bounding box for the collision detection is > an octagon? > > Russell: Yes. So it goes through, it sees if this object is > colliding with any higher- > numbered object. If it is, it replaces the > calculation routines. That's another thing > that every colliding object has, is a > calculation routine. It replaces the calculation > routine with the explosion calculation routine. > And then things take care of > themselves. Then, after it's decided whether > it's an explosion or not, it goes off to > the calculation routine. And the calculation > routine updates the position, since all > colliding objects have velocity; and if it's > a spaceship, it worries about reading the > controls and updating the other things about the > spaceship in deciding whether to > launch a torpedo or not. And if a torpedo needs > to be launched, it searches up the > colliding object table for an empty slot, > indicated by having no calculation routine. > It searches up the table for an empty slot, puts > a torpedo calculation routine there, > and the spaceship position plus the suitable > increments, so it won't run into its > torpedo, and of the velocity of the spaceship > plus an increment for the torpedo, and > it goes on. When that the main loop gets done, > you go off and do some star display > and display the sun, and calculate -- and part > of the spaceship calculation is to > calculate the effect of gravity on the > spaceship. Originally, there wasn't any gravity, > and I had an interpreter, which interpreted the > outline description, and Dan > Edwards, sometime in late 1961 or early 1962, > looked at that code and decided if he > could write a special purpose compiler which > would compile precisely the right > code, and proceeded to. And there's one > compiled outline for each spaceship; each > spaceship actually does half of the spaceship > outline and then you twiddle the > vectors and do the other half. That keeps the > display running just as fast as it can. > That gives time to calculate the effect of > gravity on the two spaceships, but not on > the torpedoes. So we decided that they were > photon torpedoes not affected by > gravity. > > Kossow: So when the explosion routine starts, it continues > calculating motion, so > the explosion moves? > > Russell: Yes. If you see two spaceships collide, if you > watch closely, you will see > that there are two explosions that continue off > in the direction that the two > spaceships were going. There is another number > in the table for all colliding > objects, which is the size. And this is, roughly > speaking, proportional to the amount > of computing it takes to compute that object. > And at the end of the loop, as you go > through the main loop, you accumulate the sizes > also; and so at the end of the loop, > there's fritter away time loop that attempts > to keep the frame rate approximately > constant. It doesn't do a wonderful job; > it's visually adequate, but God help you > when you try to take a movie of it. > > Kossow: One of the complaints with all modern kids trying > to play it now is > that it's TOO SLOW. > > Russell: Kids who are used to something like Asteroids seem > to think that. But > when we do the demos, we get a number of people > who seem to be still quite > addicted to it with the old, slow version. Now, > that was always a complaint; the > reason that all the parameters got accumulated > in the first page of the listing, which > says you can put that first page of the listing > of the console, and anyone who wanted > to try a different set of parameters could. But > the ones that were compiled in or > assembled in were the ones that I thought were > good. Now it turns out I'm not a > representative arcade game player, and so my > version of the parameters is slower > and gives more opportunity for marksmanship than > the arcade version. > > Kossow: Right, that's the whole thing with gravity and > doing the, what's that called, > where you whip around the sun? Does it have a > name, where you whip around the > sun and you shoot? > > Russell: The closest name is the "CBS maneuver" > is what happens when two lazy > experts fight each other, which is they both > turn at right angles to the sun, and fire > for 3.5 or 4 seconds, so they're now in > stable orbits, and they know it. And then they > turn at each other and start trying to place > torpedoes where they think the other one > is going to be. And so the trails turn into an > eye around the sun, and CBS used that > as a logo, so it got called the "CBS > maneuver". You can-- one of the spaceships can > go the other way around the sun, so that both > ships meet on the same side of the > sun. But that seems usually to have less chance > of winning. Not much less, but > somewhat less. > > Kossow: It's better that you stay on opposite sides, > then? > > Russell: Yes. > > Kossow: And then at some point, you added hyperspace? > > Russell: Yes, and we realized that that was going-- I > don't remember whether we > actually had it. I may have had it for a little > while with no limit, but it became very > clear that someone who didn't understand > could use hyperspace to escape their > proper justice forever, and so we added the > unreliability of hyperfield generators > very quickly. One thing that Asteroids and the > arcade versions, the later arcade > versions of Spacewar! added, which actually was > a big help, especially with their > high acceleration rates, was "training > mode" where space was actually viscous. So > if you got your ship accelerated so that it was > going across the screen so fast you > couldn't understand what was going on, if > you took your hands off, the situation > would gradually become understandable. I > don't think I would have been persuaded > to do that in the original Spacewar! because it > was unrealistic. But it definitely > made it easier to learn. > > Kossow: So are there any other favorite anecdotes about > Spacewar!, or just the > spread of Spacewar!? > > Russell: Well, the "imitation is the sincerest form > of flattery"-- many people saw > Spacewar! as, some people ask for copies of the > source, and of course we gave them > out because we very briefly considered trying to > sell Spacewar!. We realized the > only possible customer was Digital Equipment, > and we also, on a little reflection, > that they were too cheap to do it. So we gave it > out to anyone who wanted it, and > some people got the listing and thought about > it, and by reading it-- a lot of people > simply saw the game and had a computer that > wasn't the PDP-1 but did have a > display, and implemented Spacewar! their own > way. I suspect most of them figured > out the "basic trick", but I'm not > sure. > > Kossow: What "basic trick" were you thinking of? > > Russell: That you could do everything based on the > spaceship unit vector. How are > you fixed for the source code for different > implementations of Spacewar!? > > Kossow: We have a few. I don't know if we have the > PDP-10 version. We have the > 12 version, and I think we have a PDP-7 version. > > Russell: I think Bob Saunders wrote the PDP-7 version. I > think one 6 version > simply ran on the PDP-1 simulator. I think there > must have been others, but I don't > know. Something for some history grad student to > pursue. When we were running a > demo for the Yelp event, there was one woman who > had done Spacewar! in turtle > graphics as a high school programming project, > which she wasn't too happy with. > She seemed to like the demo of the original > Spacewar!. > > Kossow: So turtle graphics running on a micro or something > like that? > > Russell: I didn't quiz her. I didn't have the > opportunity to quiz her further. > > Kossow: So she thought this version was better? > > Russell: No, she just thought it was nice to see the > original. > > Kossow: So she was in her mid-20s? > > Russell: 20s or early 30s; probably 20s. The DEC field > service story where the > DEC production people got into the practice of > loading Spacewar! the last thing > before PDP-1 shipped, and field service would > then unpack it, make sure that > nothing horrible had happened, tryed turning on > power, and starting Spacewar!. > And if it worked, they would call the customer > over and say, "See, it works." If it > didn't work, then they'd worry about it. > In the restoration project, we had a little > reflection and we decided that probably if > Spacewar! works, just about everything > works, as far as machine instructions go. It > doesn't guarantee all the I/O gear works, > but it does multiply and divides, and just about > every instruction. So a lot of people > implemented Spacewar! just from knowing that it > existed and having seen it maybe > once. From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 22 12:35:21 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:35:21 +0200 Subject: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) In-Reply-To: <200810221700.m9MH04Sm063640@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200810221700.m9MH04Sm063640@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48FF6459.90408@softjar.se> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 07:54:04AM -0400, djg at pdp8.net wrote: >>> Does anyone actually have a copy of the DECnet-8 software >>> >> I have disk images which seem to be it. >> http://www.pdp8online.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=decnet > > I will poke around in that tomorrow when our sat rises. That definitely looks like DECNET/8. Fun! >> The first two are from disks which were labeled decnet 1 and decnet 2 > > Sounds promising. > >> All the RTS docs I have seen are from dbit. >> http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=rts >> ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/ > > After looking all day, I finally found the doc file I recently > discovered (most likely from dbit). It's an ASCII file named > 'decnet8.doc', internally designated "AA-5184A-TA", and happens > to briefly reference a couple of other DEC docs, "DEC-08-ORTMA", > and "DEC-8E-HMM3A". > > The primary doc file describes programs like TLK and LSN and NIP. > TLK and LSN are a line-at-a-time messaging pair. NIP (Network > Information Program) prints network status and diagnostic information. > > At first pass, DECNET/8 appears to support local traffic (process-to- > process or terminal-to-terminal) as well as a variety of interfaces > for node-to-node traffic. One list includes the KL8E, KL8J-A, KL8A, > KL8M, DP8E (interprocessor buffer), and DKC8-A (parallel). > > So to amend my previous speculations, DECNET/8 appears to provide a > basic messaging utility and user-written applications, but does not > come with any bundled file transfer capabilities. That matches my impression as well. There is a DDCMP implementation in there as well. I wonder if the TLK and LSN programs are compatible with the ones on RSX. Someone asked about compatibility between phase III and phase IV, which Paul Koenig answered. I have another question, though. As I've read it, phase III nodes can talk with phase II nodes, just as phase IV can talk with phase III. But can phase IV talk with phase II? Since DECNET/8 is phase II, this is somewhat interesting... I doubt I'll have time to look more into this any time soon, but unless someone else manage to get this working I definitely will try it sooner or later. Could anyone put up the files for convenient access with ftp? Johnny From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 22 16:00:06 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810222130.RAA03919@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Is it a raster-scan CRT? If [...] >> Is it a vector-only CRT? If [...] > Try as I will, I can't think of a _CRT_ that can only be raster > scanned or vector scanned. Well...one without deflection plates is rather difficult to use as a vector display, but that's a matter of complicated and unconventional driving electronics more than a matter of possibility proper. (Or, I suppose, one could use electrostatic deflection with the deflection plates outside the vacuum envelope, but that gets interesting in other ways.) But, that aside, if you want to use that narrow a definition of CRT, then no, characters are never sent to any CRT, Charactron or not; it's all voltage levels. I suppose you could view the voltage levels sent to a Charactron's pre-mask deflection electrodes as an encoding of a character; this point of view has some justice to it, since you could equally well say that a serial line doesn't carry characters, just voltage waveforms - but in that case you can view the relevant inputs to any CRT that's displaying a character as an encoding of that character, so it's really a question of which point of view is most useful. But I think we already got an explanation upthread that basically said it depended on software's view of it, making it more a question of design intent than anything else, since either "graphics" or "character" can be pressed into service as the other.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From steerex at ccvn.com Wed Oct 22 19:25:45 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:25:45 -0400 Subject: FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System Message-ID: <1224721545.17212.5.camel@bart> Thinning my collection of collectible books. If anyone is interested, make an offer for Tab Books: "How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System" by Robert P. Haviland Pub. 1979 . 308 ppg. This is a complete how-to for the SC/MP microprocessor. Reply to me directly. Postage will be from Western North Carolina. -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Oct 23 02:40:59 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:40:59 +0000 Subject: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) In-Reply-To: <48FF6459.90408@softjar.se> References: <200810221700.m9MH04Sm063640@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48FF6459.90408@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20081023074059.GA7597@usap.gov> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 07:35:21PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>http://www.pdp8online.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=decnet > > > >I will poke around in that tomorrow when our sat rises. > > That definitely looks like DECNET/8. Fun! Yep... I dug around today and it looks good. > I wonder if the TLK and LSN programs are compatible with the ones on RSX. There's a comment in TLK.PA about a change made in 1976 to add "PDP11 COMPATIBILITY", so I think it's possible. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 23-Oct-2008 at 07:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.5 F (-47.5 C) Windchill -86.9 F (-66.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.1 kts Grid 21 Barometer 676.2 mb (10772 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From lanoevr41 at aol.com Thu Oct 23 04:51:11 2008 From: lanoevr41 at aol.com (lanoe) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:51:11 +0200 Subject: DDC BUS-65517 1553 card Message-ID: Hi Wouter, I have seen on an internet site that a few yeras ago you were discussing about BUS-65517 1553 card. I'm currently looking fo one o this PC board, do you have any information about the procurement of this PCB please, DDC is no longer proposing this reference. Thanks by advance Best ragrds P. LANOE From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 08:08:32 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth Message-ID: <190818.54386.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I find stuff like this funny http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/tag/889529620.html Video Game Collectors Sale - $1 (New York, NY) Reply to: sale-889529620 at craigslist.org [?] Date: 2008-10-22, 5:29PM EDT $200 Atari 2600 Video Computer System with varies games(Pac-Man, Missle Command, etc.) $150 Nintendo Entertainment System with varies games(Top Gun, Bases Loaded, etc.) $100 Commodore VIC-20 Computer Collectors wanting to own a piece of video game history. All original packaging and box. Systems still works. Local delivery available Ethan, 917-334-8123 Location: New York, NY it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 08:10:50 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Atari 2600 w 10 games $400 Message-ID: <605098.29305.qm@web110514.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Some of this stuff is crazy http://newyork.craigslist.org/brx/clt/881172465.html Original Atari 2600 with games - $400 (Bronx) Reply to: sale-881172465 at craigslist.org [?] Date: 2008-10-16, 3:09AM EDT Selling an original ATARI 2600 I got in 1982 Atari 2600 with games about 10-=15 games Including defender, yars revenge, combat, misslecommand ,break out , asteroids, Frogger, Raidersof the lost ark , ET, River Raid, Space Caverns, night driver , original pac man , bezerk , championsip soccer among some, Have the original Joysticks and paddle controls. I have had them since 1982 since I was a little boy and now I am 36 . Serious inquiries only for you old timers who know what I am talking about. console works perfect and so do the cartirdges. will not negotiate on this one guys so dont even ask . $400 even no less if not then I hold on to it a few more Yrs and Get much more $$$$$ i am a maticulous man keeping my things in perfect conditions. Also have Nintendo , Super NES and Sega Genesis , Commodore 64 , And many other items in my day which are mint and flawless. Once again serious inquieries only NO LESS THAN 400 and you old timers now that is a bargin !!! Eddie (347) 702-3918 Location: Bronx it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 881172465 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 08:12:31 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Here is another Mac IICi $595 Message-ID: <983369.60357.qm@web110511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I like where he talks about "Advanced Hardware" http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/886217650.html Apple Macintosh II ci Computer - $595 (East Hills, Long Island) Reply to: sale-886217650 at craigslist.org [?] Date: 2008-10-20, 11:38AM EDT A ?Like New? Apple Macintosh II ci Graphics Computer with Color Monitor, loaded with Hardware and Software. This can be a great Workstation for development or graphics. This computer has advanced hardware and software as follows: Hardware: 330 MB Hard Drive; Network Card; SCSI Card; PLI Infinity 40 Turbo SCSI Drive; three 44 MB SyQuest Cartridges and much more. Software: System 7.0.1 Operating System; QuarkXpress; Unitron; Norton Utilities; Alliance Power Tools and much much more. This is a GREAT BUY! Please call David or Ehud at: (516)625-3476 Location: East Hills, Long Island it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 886217650 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 23 09:17:57 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:17:57 -0700 Subject: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth In-Reply-To: <190818.54386.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <190818.54386.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:08 AM -0700 10/23/08, Christian Liendo wrote: >I find stuff like this funny > >http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/tag/889529620.html I've been watching Craigslist the past few months looking for some camera equipment I'm after. I can typically buy used stuff from a dealer with some sort of warranty for about the same price people want, or less. What really gets me is the stuff people are trying to sell for more than it costs new. The strange thing is, it's typically on the very high-end expensive stuff you can get a good deal. So far I've not purchased anything off Craigslist, as what I'm looking for hasn't turned up at a price that makes it worth messing with. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Oct 23 09:52:05 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:52:05 -0500 Subject: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) In-Reply-To: <48FF6459.90408@softjar.se> References: <200810221700.m9MH04Sm063640@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48FF6459.90408@softjar.se> Message-ID: >I wonder if the TLK and LSN programs are compatible with the ones on RSX. FWIW, TLK/LSN exists in RSTS also. >Someone asked about compatibility between phase III and phase IV, which >Paul Koenig answered. >I have another question, though. > >As I've read it, phase III nodes can talk with phase II nodes, just as >phase IV can talk with phase III. But can phase IV talk with phase II? >Since DECNET/8 is phase II, this is somewhat interesting... I thought the comment was that DECnet/8 is Phase III? In any case, the question is no. Compatibility is one phase up, so Phase III understands II, and IV understands III, but IV->II isn't supported. It's possible that someone did implement that; it wouldn't be all that difficult. But for example DECnet/E does not. I just checked... the message code for the Phase II init message is in the definitions file, but it isn't mentioned in the routing layer code so the state machine for handling that message is absent. paul PS. I noticed that the pdf/dec/DECnet directory on bitsavers.org has some Phase II and some Phase III docs (not clearly differentiated -- the 1978 docs are Phase II, the 1980 ones are Phase III). But there are no Phase IV docs there. I know they exist elsewhere; having those copied to bitsavers would be a good thing. From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 10:26:51 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:26:51 -0400 Subject: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth In-Reply-To: References: <190818.54386.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220810230826s6935423eh419d888dfaa10f65@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:08 AM -0700 10/23/08, Christian Liendo wrote: >> >> I find stuff like this funny >> >> http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/tag/889529620.html > > I've been watching Craigslist the past few months looking for some camera > equipment I'm after. I can typically buy used stuff from a dealer with some > sort of warranty for about the same price people want, or less. What really > gets me is the stuff people are trying to sell for more than it costs new. > The strange thing is, it's typically on the very high-end expensive stuff > you can get a good deal. > > So far I've not purchased anything off Craigslist, as what I'm looking for > hasn't turned up at a price that makes it worth messing with. > > Zane > > Step on any college campus and see all the flyers for used laptops selling for more than they cost new... John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 23 14:42:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:42:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <200810222130.RAA03919@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Oct 22, 8 05:00:06 pm Message-ID: > > >> Is it a raster-scan CRT? If [...] > >> Is it a vector-only CRT? If [...] > > Try as I will, I can't think of a _CRT_ that can only be raster > > scanned or vector scanned. > > Well...one without deflection plates is rather difficult to use as a > vector display, but that's a matter of complicated and unconventional One without _any_ deflection system is hard to use as either a vector or raster display :-) But I assume you're refereing to electromagnetically-deflected CRTs, like most TVs use(d). Those can certainly be used for vector displays, the deflection yoke is non-standard (in that both axes are essentially the same), you drive it from a controllable current source (magnetic field is proproational to current). You need a source with a reasonable 'compliance' (maximum output voltage) due to the back emf from the yoke windings when you try to change the field quickly, but that's mot an impossile problem. I have several vector displays here. The ones that were designed by companies known for making CRT-based instruments like 'scopes -- HP and Tektronix -- use large-screen electrostatic CRTs. But the DEC VR14 and the Vectrex video game both use electromagnet CRTs. > driving electronics more than a matter of possibility proper. (Or, I > suppose, one could use electrostatic deflection with the deflection > plates outside the vacuum envelope, but that gets interesting in other > ways.) > > But, that aside, if you want to use that narrow a definition of CRT, > then no, characters are never sent to any CRT, Charactron or not; it's And nor, strictly, is a graphics bitmap. Or a table of vectors. Both have to processed in some way (as do characters) to produce the correct voltage waveforms on the electrodes. > all voltage levels. I suppose you could view the voltage levels sent > to a Charactron's pre-mask deflection electrodes as an encoding of a > character; this point of view has some justice to it, since you could > equally well say that a serial line doesn't carry characters, just > voltage waveforms - but in that case you can view the relevant inputs > to any CRT that's displaying a character as an encoding of that > character, so it's really a question of which point of view is most > useful. -tony From Apergy at aol.com Thu Oct 23 12:19:52 2008 From: Apergy at aol.com (Apergy at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:19:52 EDT Subject: Relatively Early Computer Generated Art (1963) Message-ID: Hello, This is my first post. Several months ago, I purchased a limited edition (12/50) photographic print of computer generated sine waves that was executed by Efriam Arazi in 1963. Arazi is considered to be a pioneer in leading edge computer graphics. I believe that the work was created by Arazi at MIT. Might anyone within or without the CCTALK community shed further light onto this work? Thank you, Randy In a message dated 10/23/2008 1:07:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] (Tony Duell) 2. Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] (Tony Duell) 3. Re: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals (Lee Courtney (ACM)) 4. Re: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) (Johnny Billquist) 5. Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] (der Mouse) 6. FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System (Steve Robertson) 7. Re: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) (Ethan Dicks) 8. DDC BUS-65517 1553 card (lanoe) 9. OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth (Christian Liendo) 10. OT: Atari 2600 w 10 games $400 (Christian Liendo) 11. OT: Here is another Mac IICi $595 (Christian Liendo) 12. Re: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth (Zane H. Healy) 13. RE: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) 14. Re: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth (John Floren) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:43:34 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > I give up. I can't figure out how you define "monitor". Nor can I. It's clear (I hope) that the thing I use on my workbench with a raster-scanned CRT and a composite video input is a 'monitor' by any normal defintiion. It's equally clear to me that the DEC VT100 is not a monitor, it's a terminal (although it contains a monitor). But there are plenty of grey areas between them. > > Is it a raster-scan CRT? If so, then yes, it doesn't directly do characters. > > Is it a vector-only CRT? If so, then again it doesn't directly do characters. Try as I will, I can't think of a _CRT_ that can only be raster scanned or vector scanned. > Is it a vacuum tube with a phosphor face intended as an output device viewed by humans? That would be the definition I would assume you're using. If so, then the SAGE displays fit: those are direct view tubes that can display both vectors and characte rs, and the character display is a Charactron. Esactly. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:38:39 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > >vector representation and *that* is sent to the monitor. Monitors > > >don't eat characters as input. > > > > Not unless they are a Charactron [...] > > ...which is not a monitor, so no characters are not sent to monitors. You can, of course, use words to mean what you like, but it helps if we all know that definition. So could you please tell us what you mean by (video) monitor [1], what inputs it may have, and so on. [1] I put the 'video' in to avoid discussion of monitor programs, and the like. And what do you call the HP98780? -tony ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:26:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lee Courtney \(ACM\)" Subject: Re: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <100541.90698.qm at web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Al, Very nice interview. Is there an audio of the entire interview available on the Museum web site, or Youtube? Lee Courtney --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 11:00 AM > Here is part of an oral history I recorded with Steve Russel > last > August which discusses how the Spacewar! program works > internally. > > > Exerpt of an oral history of Steve Russell > August 2008 > CHM Reference Number X4970.2008 > (C) 2008 Computer History Museum > > > Russell: Anyway, the PDP-1 arrived, and Marvin Minsky > wrote the tripos > demonstration, generally called the Minskytron, > and there was the famous weekend > where the mob of undergraduates transcribed the > macro assembler from TX-0 to the > PDP-1, because they didn't like FRAP. And > then fairly quickly thereafter, they > wrote DDT and connected up the macro symbols to > DDT. So that was all sort of in > place by the middle of the fall of 1961. And the > combination of the Minskytron and > having DDT with interactive debugging with > symbols was very tempting. I don't > remember the exact order of things, but I'm > pretty sure I started talking up a better > demonstration program than the Minskytron, and > eventually, Alan Kotok went up > to Maynard and collected the sine and cosine > routines from DECUS, presented > them to me, and said, "Okay, here are the > sine and cosine routines; now what's your > excuse?" And I discovered I had run out of > excuses; I had to actually think. And so > I started work and figured out the basic trick > of Spacewar! display which is that you > only need to calculate a unit vector pointing in > the direction of the spaceship. And > you can express everything else the spaceship > does, and the outline of the spaceship > in terms of that unit vector, suitably scaled. > So it's basically a lot of addition in the > usual program upkeep. > > Kossow: Do you want to just give an overview, then, of how > Spacewar! actually > works? > > Russell: It's one big loop, and the loop is on the > displayable objects. And I called > them displayable objects, although I didn't > know about object orientation or object- > oriented programming at the time. > > Kossow: So you have the sun-- > > Russell: Colliding objects, not displayable objects. The > colliding object is a space > ship, there are two of those. And that has a lot > of extra data with it. It shares the > position and velocity tables with all of the > torpedoes and explosions that are running > around. So there's just one big loop through > the colliding objects, and it looks at all > the higher-numbered colliding objects to see if > there's a collision, using an octagon > because you don't need to calculate the > square root of anything, you can do that by > work on X difference, Y difference, and X+Y > difference-- > > Kossow: So the bounding box for the collision detection is > an octagon? > > Russell: Yes. So it goes through, it sees if this object is > colliding with any higher- > numbered object. If it is, it replaces the > calculation routines. That's another thing > that every colliding object has, is a > calculation routine. It replaces the calculation > routine with the explosion calculation routine. > And then things take care of > themselves. Then, after it's decided whether > it's an explosion or not, it goes off to > the calculation routine. And the calculation > routine updates the position, since all > colliding objects have velocity; and if it's > a spaceship, it worries about reading the > controls and updating the other things about the > spaceship in deciding whether to > launch a torpedo or not. And if a torpedo needs > to be launched, it searches up the > colliding object table for an empty slot, > indicated by having no calculation routine. > It searches up the table for an empty slot, puts > a torpedo calculation routine there, > and the spaceship position plus the suitable > increments, so it won't run into its > torpedo, and of the velocity of the spaceship > plus an increment for the torpedo, and > it goes on. When that the main loop gets done, > you go off and do some star display > and display the sun, and calculate -- and part > of the spaceship calculation is to > calculate the effect of gravity on the > spaceship. Originally, there wasn't any gravity, > and I had an interpreter, which interpreted the > outline description, and Dan > Edwards, sometime in late 1961 or early 1962, > looked at that code and decided if he > could write a special purpose compiler which > would compile precisely the right > code, and proceeded to. And there's one > compiled outline for each spaceship; each > spaceship actually does half of the spaceship > outline and then you twiddle the > vectors and do the other half. That keeps the > display running just as fast as it can. > That gives time to calculate the effect of > gravity on the two spaceships, but not on > the torpedoes. So we decided that they were > photon torpedoes not affected by > gravity. > > Kossow: So when the explosion routine starts, it continues > calculating motion, so > the explosion moves? > > Russell: Yes. If you see two spaceships collide, if you > watch closely, you will see > that there are two explosions that continue off > in the direction that the two > spaceships were going. There is another number > in the table for all colliding > objects, which is the size. And this is, roughly > speaking, proportional to the amount > of computing it takes to compute that object. > And at the end of the loop, as you go > through the main loop, you accumulate the sizes > also; and so at the end of the loop, > there's fritter away time loop that attempts > to keep the frame rate approximately > constant. It doesn't do a wonderful job; > it's visually adequate, but God help you > when you try to take a movie of it. > > Kossow: One of the complaints with all modern kids trying > to play it now is > that it's TOO SLOW. > > Russell: Kids who are used to something like Asteroids seem > to think that. But > when we do the demos, we get a number of people > who seem to be still quite > addicted to it with the old, slow version. Now, > that was always a complaint; the > reason that all the parameters got accumulated > in the first page of the listing, which > says you can put that first page of the listing > of the console, and anyone who wanted > to try a different set of parameters could. But > the ones that were compiled in or > assembled in were the ones that I thought were > good. Now it turns out I'm not a > representative arcade game player, and so my > version of the parameters is slower > and gives more opportunity for marksmanship than > the arcade version. > > Kossow: Right, that's the whole thing with gravity and > doing the, what's that called, > where you whip around the sun? Does it have a > name, where you whip around the > sun and you shoot? > > Russell: The closest name is the "CBS maneuver" > is what happens when two lazy > experts fight each other, which is they both > turn at right angles to the sun, and fire > for 3.5 or 4 seconds, so they're now in > stable orbits, and they know it. And then they > turn at each other and start trying to place > torpedoes where they think the other one > is going to be. And so the trails turn into an > eye around the sun, and CBS used that > as a logo, so it got called the "CBS > maneuver". You can-- one of the spaceships can > go the other way around the sun, so that both > ships meet on the same side of the > sun. But that seems usually to have less chance > of winning. Not much less, but > somewhat less. > > Kossow: It's better that you stay on opposite sides, > then? > > Russell: Yes. > > Kossow: And then at some point, you added hyperspace? > > Russell: Yes, and we realized that that was going-- I > don't remember whether we > actually had it. I may have had it for a little > while with no limit, but it became very > clear that someone who didn't understand > could use hyperspace to escape their > proper justice forever, and so we added the > unreliability of hyperfield generators > very quickly. One thing that Asteroids and the > arcade versions, the later arcade > versions of Spacewar! added, which actually was > a big help, especially with their > high acceleration rates, was "training > mode" where space was actually viscous. So > if you got your ship accelerated so that it was > going across the screen so fast you > couldn't understand what was going on, if > you took your hands off, the situation > would gradually become understandable. I > don't think I would have been persuaded > to do that in the original Spacewar! because it > was unrealistic. But it definitely > made it easier to learn. > > Kossow: So are there any other favorite anecdotes about > Spacewar!, or just the > spread of Spacewar!? > > Russell: Well, the "imitation is the sincerest form > of flattery"-- many people saw > Spacewar! as, some people ask for copies of the > source, and of course we gave them > out because we very briefly considered trying to > sell Spacewar!. We realized the > only possible customer was Digital Equipment, > and we also, on a little reflection, > that they were too cheap to do it. So we gave it > out to anyone who wanted it, and > some people got the listing and thought about > it, and by reading it-- a lot of people > simply saw the game and had a computer that > wasn't the PDP-1 but did have a > display, and implemented Spacewar! their own > way. I suspect most of them figured > out the "basic trick", but I'm not > sure. > > Kossow: What "basic trick" were you thinking of? > > Russell: That you could do everything based on the > spaceship unit vector. How are > you fixed for the source code for different > implementations of Spacewar!? > > Kossow: We have a few. I don't know if we have the > PDP-10 version. We have the > 12 version, and I think we have a PDP-7 version. > > Russell: I think Bob Saunders wrote the PDP-7 version. I > think one 6 version > simply ran on the PDP-1 simulator. I think there > must have been others, but I don't > know. Something for some history grad student to > pursue. When we were running a > demo for the Yelp event, there was one woman who > had done Spacewar! in turtle > graphics as a high school programming project, > which she wasn't too happy with. > She seemed to like the demo of the original > Spacewar!. > > Kossow: So turtle graphics running on a micro or something > like that? > > Russell: I didn't quiz her. I didn't have the > opportunity to quiz her further. > > Kossow: So she thought this version was better? > > Russell: No, she just thought it was nice to see the > original. > > Kossow: So she was in her mid-20s? > > Russell: 20s or early 30s; probably 20s. The DEC field > service story where the > DEC production people got into the practice of > loading Spacewar! the last thing > before PDP-1 shipped, and field service would > then unpack it, make sure that > nothing horrible had happened, tryed turning on > power, and starting Spacewar!. > And if it worked, they would call the customer > over and say, "See, it works." If it > didn't work, then they'd worry about it. > In the restoration project, we had a little > reflection and we decided that probably if > Spacewar! works, just about everything > works, as far as machine instructions go. It > doesn't guarantee all the I/O gear works, > but it does multiply and divides, and just about > every instruction. So a lot of people > implemented Spacewar! just from knowing that it > existed and having seen it maybe > once. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:35:21 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <48FF6459.90408 at softjar.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 07:54:04AM -0400, djg at pdp8.net wrote: >>> Does anyone actually have a copy of the DECnet-8 software >>> >> I have disk images which seem to be it. >> http://www.pdp8online.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=decnet > > I will poke around in that tomorrow when our sat rises. That definitely looks like DECNET/8. Fun! >> The first two are from disks which were labeled decnet 1 and decnet 2 > > Sounds promising. > >> All the RTS docs I have seen are from dbit. >> http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=rts >> ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/ > > After looking all day, I finally found the doc file I recently > discovered (most likely from dbit). It's an ASCII file named > 'decnet8.doc', internally designated "AA-5184A-TA", and happens > to briefly reference a couple of other DEC docs, "DEC-08-ORTMA", > and "DEC-8E-HMM3A". > > The primary doc file describes programs like TLK and LSN and NIP. > TLK and LSN are a line-at-a-time messaging pair. NIP (Network > Information Program) prints network status and diagnostic information. > > At first pass, DECNET/8 appears to support local traffic (process-to- > process or terminal-to-terminal) as well as a variety of interfaces > for node-to-node traffic. One list includes the KL8E, KL8J-A, KL8A, > KL8M, DP8E (interprocessor buffer), and DKC8-A (parallel). > > So to amend my previous speculations, DECNET/8 appears to provide a > basic messaging utility and user-written applications, but does not > come with any bundled file transfer capabilities. That matches my impression as well. There is a DDCMP implementation in there as well. I wonder if the TLK and LSN programs are compatible with the ones on RSX. Someone asked about compatibility between phase III and phase IV, which Paul Koenig answered. I have another question, though. As I've read it, phase III nodes can talk with phase II nodes, just as phase IV can talk with phase III. But can phase IV talk with phase II? Since DECNET/8 is phase II, this is somewhat interesting... I doubt I'll have time to look more into this any time soon, but unless someone else manage to get this working I definitely will try it sooner or later. Could anyone put up the files for convenient access with ftp? Johnny ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:00:06 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse Subject: Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <200810222130.RAA03919 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Is it a raster-scan CRT? If [...] >> Is it a vector-only CRT? If [...] > Try as I will, I can't think of a _CRT_ that can only be raster > scanned or vector scanned. Well...one without deflection plates is rather difficult to use as a vector display, but that's a matter of complicated and unconventional driving electronics more than a matter of possibility proper. (Or, I suppose, one could use electrostatic deflection with the deflection plates outside the vacuum envelope, but that gets interesting in other ways.) But, that aside, if you want to use that narrow a definition of CRT, then no, characters are never sent to any CRT, Charactron or not; it's all voltage levels. I suppose you could view the voltage levels sent to a Charactron's pre-mask deflection electrodes as an encoding of a character; this point of view has some justice to it, since you could equally well say that a serial line doesn't carry characters, just voltage waveforms - but in that case you can view the relevant inputs to any CRT that's displaying a character as an encoding of that character, so it's really a question of which point of view is most useful. But I think we already got an explanation upthread that basically said it depended on software's view of it, making it more a question of design intent than anything else, since either "graphics" or "character" can be pressed into service as the other.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:25:45 -0400 From: Steve Robertson Subject: FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <1224721545.17212.5.camel at bart> Content-Type: text/plain Thinning my collection of collectible books. If anyone is interested, make an offer for Tab Books: "How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System" by Robert P. Haviland Pub. 1979 . 308 ppg. This is a complete how-to for the SC/MP microprocessor. Reply to me directly. Postage will be from Western North Carolina. -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:40:59 +0000 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20081023074059.GA7597 at usap.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 07:35:21PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>http://www.pdp8online.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=decnet > > > >I will poke around in that tomorrow when our sat rises. > > That definitely looks like DECNET/8. Fun! Yep... I dug around today and it looks good. > I wonder if the TLK and LSN programs are compatible with the ones on RSX. There's a comment in TLK.PA about a change made in 1976 to add "PDP11 COMPATIBILITY", so I think it's possible. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 23-Oct-2008 at 07:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.5 F (-47.5 C) Windchill -86.9 F (-66.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.1 kts Grid 21 Barometer 676.2 mb (10772 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:51:11 +0200 From: "lanoe" Subject: DDC BUS-65517 1553 card To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Wouter, I have seen on an internet site that a few yeras ago you were discussing about BUS-65517 1553 card. I'm currently looking fo one o this PC board, do you have any information about the procurement of this PCB please, DDC is no longer proposing this reference. Thanks by advance Best ragrds P. LANOE ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:08:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Christian Liendo Subject: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <190818.54386.qm at web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I find stuff like this funny http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/tag/889529620.html Video Game Collectors Sale - $1 (New York, NY) Reply to: sale-889529620 at craigslist.org [?] Date: 2008-10-22, 5:29PM EDT $200 Atari 2600 Video Computer System with varies games(Pac-Man, Missle Command, etc.) $150 Nintendo Entertainment System with varies games(Top Gun, Bases Loaded, etc.) $100 Commodore VIC-20 Computer Collectors wanting to own a piece of video game history. All original packaging and box. Systems still works. Local delivery available Ethan, 917-334-8123 Location: New York, NY it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:10:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Christian Liendo Subject: OT: Atari 2600 w 10 games $400 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <605098.29305.qm at web110514.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some of this stuff is crazy http://newyork.craigslist.org/brx/clt/881172465.html Original Atari 2600 with games - $400 (Bronx) Reply to: sale-881172465 at craigslist.org [?] Date: 2008-10-16, 3:09AM EDT Selling an original ATARI 2600 I got in 1982 Atari 2600 with games about 10-=15 games Including defender, yars revenge, combat, misslecommand ,break out , asteroids, Frogger, Raidersof the lost ark , ET, River Raid, Space Caverns, night driver , original pac man , bezerk , championsip soccer among some, Have the original Joysticks and paddle controls. I have had them since 1982 since I was a little boy and now I am 36 . Serious inquiries only for you old timers who know what I am talking about. console works perfect and so do the cartirdges. will not negotiate on this one guys so dont even ask . $400 even no less if not then I hold on to it a few more Yrs and Get much more $$$$$ i am a maticulous man keeping my things in perfect conditions. Also have Nintendo , Super NES and Sega Genesis , Commodore 64 , And many other items in my day which are mint and flawless. Once again serious inquieries only NO LESS THAN 400 and you old timers now that is a bargin !!! Eddie (347) 702-3918 Location: Bronx it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 881172465 ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:12:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Christian Liendo Subject: OT: Here is another Mac IICi $595 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <983369.60357.qm at web110511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I like where he talks about "Advanced Hardware" http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/886217650.html Apple Macintosh II ci Computer - $595 (East Hills, Long Island) Reply to: sale-886217650 at craigslist.org [?] Date: 2008-10-20, 11:38AM EDT A ?Like New? Apple Macintosh II ci Graphics Computer with Color Monitor, loaded with Hardware and Software. This can be a great Workstation for development or graphics. This computer has advanced hardware and software as follows: Hardware: 330 MB Hard Drive; Network Card; SCSI Card; PLI Infinity 40 Turbo SCSI Drive; three 44 MB SyQuest Cartridges and much more. Software: System 7.0.1 Operating System; QuarkXpress; Unitron; Norton Utilities; Alliance Power Tools and much much more. This is a GREAT BUY! Please call David or Ehud at: (516)625-3476 Location: East Hills, Long Island it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 886217650 ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:17:57 -0700 From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 6:08 AM -0700 10/23/08, Christian Liendo wrote: >I find stuff like this funny > >http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/tag/889529620.html I've been watching Craigslist the past few months looking for some camera equipment I'm after. I can typically buy used stuff from a dealer with some sort of warranty for about the same price people want, or less. What really gets me is the stuff people are trying to sell for more than it costs new. The strange thing is, it's typically on the very high-end expensive stuff you can get a good deal. So far I've not purchased anything off Craigslist, as what I'm looking for hasn't turned up at a price that makes it worth messing with. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:52:05 -0500 From: Subject: RE: DECNET/8 (was Re: RTS-8) To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >I wonder if the TLK and LSN programs are compatible with the ones on RSX. FWIW, TLK/LSN exists in RSTS also. >Someone asked about compatibility between phase III and phase IV, which >Paul Koenig answered. >I have another question, though. > >As I've read it, phase III nodes can talk with phase II nodes, just as >phase IV can talk with phase III. But can phase IV talk with phase II? >Since DECNET/8 is phase II, this is somewhat interesting... I thought the comment was that DECnet/8 is Phase III? In any case, the question is no. Compatibility is one phase up, so Phase III understands II, and IV understands III, but IV->II isn't supported. It's possible that someone did implement that; it wouldn't be all that difficult. But for example DECnet/E does not. I just checked... the message code for the Phase II init message is in the definitions file, but it isn't mentioned in the routing layer code so the state machine for handling that message is absent. paul PS. I noticed that the pdf/dec/DECnet directory on bitsavers.org has some Phase II and some Phase III docs (not clearly differentiated -- the 1978 docs are Phase II, the 1980 ones are Phase III). But there are no Phase IV docs there. I know they exist elsewhere; having those copied to bitsavers would be a good thing. ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:26:51 -0400 From: "John Floren" Subject: Re: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <7d3530220810230826s6935423eh419d888dfaa10f65 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:08 AM -0700 10/23/08, Christian Liendo wrote: >> >> I find stuff like this funny >> >> http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/tag/889529620.html > > I've been watching Craigslist the past few months looking for some camera > equipment I'm after. I can typically buy used stuff from a dealer with some > sort of warranty for about the same price people want, or less. What really > gets me is the stuff people are trying to sell for more than it costs new. > The strange thing is, it's typically on the very high-end expensive stuff > you can get a good deal. > > So far I've not purchased anything off Craigslist, as what I'm looking for > hasn't turned up at a price that makes it worth messing with. > > Zane > > Step on any college campus and see all the flyers for used laptops selling for more than they cost new... John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn End of cctalk Digest, Vol 62, Issue 49 ************************************** **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics ? check it out! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir= http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Oct 23 19:50:57 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:50:57 -0400 Subject: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth In-Reply-To: <190818.54386.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <190818.54386.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49011BF1.5060509@hawkmountain.net> How about a Sun 3/80 for $262.85 ! (not as bad as wanting more for it than when it was new :-)... but I don't know anyone willing to pay over $250 for a 3/80.... if I did I could probably be pursuaded to part with one of mine :-) ). -- Curt Christian Liendo wrote: > I find stuff like this funny > > http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/tag/889529620.html > > Video Game Collectors Sale - $1 (New York, NY) > > Reply to: sale-889529620 at craigslist.org [?] > > Date: 2008-10-22, 5:29PM EDT > > > > > > > $200 Atari 2600 Video Computer System with varies games(Pac-Man, Missle Command, etc.) > > > $150 Nintendo Entertainment System with varies games(Top Gun, Bases Loaded, etc.) > > > $100 Commodore VIC-20 Computer > > > > > > Collectors wanting to own a piece of video game history. All original packaging and box. Systems still works. > > > > > > Local delivery available > > > Ethan, 917-334-8123 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Location: New York, NY > it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests > > > > > > > > From cluno at gmx.de Thu Oct 23 14:14:35 2008 From: cluno at gmx.de (Christian Lehnert) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:14:35 +0200 Subject: free: Tektronix Microlab I with complete docs Message-ID: <20081023191435.68260@gmx.net> Hi Kurt, I contact you in regard to the Tektronix Microlab I. Do you still have it? If it's gone, do you know to whom? Is there any documentation available? I'm asking this, because I don't have any manual about it and need it for repair of Tek 7854. Please get in contact with me. Best regards, Christian Lehnert ----------------------------------------------- People, I recently bought a Tektronix Microlab I on eBay. It was sold as is, and in fact does not work. If anybody wants to take a stab at fixing it, you can have it. It is some kind of combination trainer/emulator. It has RS-232 and audio in/out to be used by the monitor program for loading programs into RAM. It looks like a microprocessor trainer: hex keypad, LED display, buttons for stepping through and starting and stopping the program. It can support a variety of different processors via personality cards. The card that is in there is for the TI TMS9900. Good luck finding other personality cards. They definitely were produced. When it is powered up, it shows different things on the LED and never responds to user input. I have made no effort at further diagnosis. Who knows, it might just be a power supply problem (linear, I think). It comes with complete documentation on microfiche including schematics. If somebody is interested in fixing it, it's free. -kurt -- Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From james at machineroom.info Thu Oct 23 15:02:55 2008 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:02:55 +0100 Subject: FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System In-Reply-To: <1224721545.17212.5.camel@bart> References: <1224721545.17212.5.camel@bart> Message-ID: <4900D86F.8070807@machineroom.info> Steve Robertson wrote: > Thinning my collection of collectible books. > > If anyone is interested, make an offer for Tab Books: "How To Design > Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System" by Robert P. Haviland > Pub. 1979 . 308 ppg. This is a complete how-to for the SC/MP > microprocessor. > > Reply to me directly. Postage will be from Western North Carolina. > > Strangely, I'm sure I have the same title from the same publisher sitting on my shelf but it's for an 8080. When I was younger my Father built the design on some veroboard and found many errors in the book. One of these days I'll get around to finishing it! Cheers, James From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 24 04:17:05 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:17:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >> Well...one without deflection plates is rather difficult to use as a >> vector display, but that's a matter of complicated and unconventional > > One without _any_ deflection system is hard to use as either a vector or > raster display :-) I just want to mention that there were polar-coordinate tubes. They may be either completely electrostatic or mixed static/magnetic. I've just read an interesting discussion on the 3DP1 on the net. > I have several vector displays here. The ones that were designed by > companies known for making CRT-based instruments like 'scopes -- HP and > Tektronix -- use large-screen electrostatic CRTs. But the DEC VR14 and > the Vectrex video game both use electromagnet CRTs. The DEC VR14/VR17 are electromagnetic CRTs. The two push-pull power amplifiers for both ordinates as well as the current through the deflection coils are quite impressive. Christian From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 07:36:54 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:36:54 -0400 Subject: OT: Here is another Mac IICi $595 In-Reply-To: <983369.60357.qm@web110511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <983369.60357.qm@web110511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220810240536ra637a85s317ef062d50c337@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > I like where he talks about "Advanced Hardware" > > > http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/886217650.html > Apple Macintosh II ci Computer - $595 (East Hills, Long Island) > > Reply to: sale-886217650 at craigslist.org [?] > > Date: 2008-10-20, 11:38AM EDT > > > > > > > A "Like New" Apple Macintosh II ci Graphics Computer with Color > Monitor, loaded with Hardware and Software. This can be a great > Workstation for development or graphics. This computer has advanced > hardware and software as follows: > > Hardware: 330 MB Hard Drive; Network Card; SCSI Card; PLI Infinity > 40 Turbo SCSI Drive; three 44 MB SyQuest Cartridges and much more. > Software: System 7.0.1 Operating System; QuarkXpress; Unitron; Norton > Utilities; Alliance Power Tools and much much more. > "This can be a great Workstation for development or graphics". You'll be super productive with an outdated desktop publishing program, an extremely old anti-virus suite, and much much more! John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From hachti at hachti.de Fri Oct 24 11:17:06 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:17:06 +0200 Subject: DEC Frontpanel color data? Message-ID: <4901F502.9090104@hachti.de> Hi folks, does anyone have a specification of the frontpanel colors used by DEC? I need information (RGB or CMYK value or pantone name...) about the dark green used on PDP12 and LAB-8/e frontpanels. I need the correct color for a restauration project. If anyone has further information, or the ability to check his frontpanel colors against a color chart... Would be very good. Best wishes, Philipp :-) From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 24 11:57:54 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:57:54 -0400 Subject: FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System In-Reply-To: <4900D86F.8070807@machineroom.info> References: <1224721545.17212.5.camel@bart> <4900D86F.8070807@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <200810241257.54610.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 23 October 2008 16:02, James Wilson wrote: > Steve Robertson wrote: > > Thinning my collection of collectible books. > > > > If anyone is interested, make an offer for Tab Books: "How To Design > > Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System" by Robert P. Haviland > > Pub. 1979 . 308 ppg. This is a complete how-to for the SC/MP > > microprocessor. > > > > Reply to me directly. Postage will be from Western North Carolina. > > Strangely, I'm sure I have the same title from the same publisher > sitting on my shelf but it's for an 8080. When I was younger my Father > built the design on some veroboard and found many errors in the book. > One of these days I'll get around to finishing it! I have both of these somewhere, and the titles are not exactly the same, though they're pretty close. I've been posting a few odd books here and there over on amazon, it hadn't occurred to me to get into the TAB books yet (or I haven't encountered that box yet :-). Yes, there are many errors in them. Lots of typos, and lots of blatant errors too, that seemed to be typical of the stuff from that publisher for some reason. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 24 12:43:10 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:43:10 -0700 Subject: OT: Here is another Mac IICi $595 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220810240536ra637a85s317ef062d50c337@mail.gmail.com> References: <983369.60357.qm@web110511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <7d3530220810240536ra637a85s317ef062d50c337@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Christian Liendo > wrote: > > I like where he talks about "Advanced Hardware" > > > > > > http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/886217650.html > > Apple Macintosh II ci Computer - $595 (East Hills, Long Island) > > > > Reply to: sale-886217650 at craigslist.org [?] > > > > Date: 2008-10-20, 11:38AM EDT > > [snip] > > "This can be a great Workstation for development or graphics". You'll > be super productive with an outdated desktop publishing program, an > extremely old anti-virus suite, and much much more! > I'm not sure there are too many script kiddies working up 680x0 or MacOS 7 exploits these days. :-) Besides, on a machine this slow, 'zero-day exploits' become 'zero-week'. Cheers -- Ian From imsaicollector at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 14:02:51 2008 From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com (Michael Hart) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: <252747.50911.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <39692.18882.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> As far as IMSAI II is concern don't believe a word on the site. It is not real the original designer builder is of the case. The person who is left is out of his mind and dreaming of the good old days --- On Sun, 10/19/08, William Maddox wrote: From: William Maddox Subject: Re: imsai.net To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 5:10 PM --- On Sun, 10/19/08, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net > regarding the Series 2 > machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive > chassis, but that's > gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. This page is still there: http://imsai.net/products/MDE.htm If you click on the picture of Todd with the dollhouse (at the top of the main page) it takes you to another page that has navigation links to a bunch of other stuff. I don't know if this is just atrocious website design, or an incomplete attempt to take down the other pages. --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 24 12:55:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:55:25 -0700 Subject: TI Silent 700 on Craigslist Message-ID: <4901A99D.22336.351C95@cclist.sydex.com> http://eugene.craigslist.org/sys/891552741.html Don't know if $100 is a good price nowadays or not. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 24 14:42:48 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:42:48 -0400 Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: <39692.18882.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <39692.18882.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49022538.2080005@atarimuseum.com> I would've paid for an ATX motherboard case replacement in an IMSAI styled case, maybe sell a deluxe kit where the front panel led's randomly blinked, it would make for a cool piece. Even an Altair case for ATX motherboards would make a PC a lot more fun to use :-) Curt Michael Hart wrote: > As far as IMSAI II is concern don't believe a word on the site. It is not real the original designer builder is of the case. The person who is left is out of his mind and dreaming of the good old days > --- On Sun, 10/19/08, William Maddox wrote: > From: William Maddox > Subject: Re: imsai.net > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 5:10 PM > > --- On Sun, 10/19/08, David Griffith wrote: > > >> Does anyone know what's going on with imsai.net >> regarding the Series 2 >> machines? I looked at the site hoping to get a drive >> chassis, but that's >> gone along with related to communication with Todd Fischer. >> > > This page is still there: > > http://imsai.net/products/MDE.htm > > If you click on the picture of Todd with the dollhouse (at the top > of the main page) it takes you to another page that has navigation > links to a bunch of other stuff. I don't know if this is just atrocious > website design, or an incomplete attempt to take down the other pages. > > --Bill > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1743 - Release Date: 10/24/2008 8:33 AM > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 24 14:57:26 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: imsai.net In-Reply-To: <49022538.2080005@atarimuseum.com> References: <39692.18882.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49022538.2080005@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Oct 2008, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I would've paid for an ATX motherboard case replacement in an IMSAI > styled case, maybe sell a deluxe kit where the front panel led's > randomly blinked, it would make for a cool piece. Even an Altair case > for ATX motherboards would make a PC a lot more fun to use :-) Shrug. Grant's Altair kit certainly looks good. I'll get one of those in a few months if/when I have the money. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 24 15:24:55 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:24:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Oct 24, 8 11:17:05 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 23 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Well...one without deflection plates is rather difficult to use as a > >> vector display, but that's a matter of complicated and unconventional > > > > One without _any_ deflection system is hard to use as either a vector or > > raster display :-) > > I just want to mention that there were polar-coordinate tubes. They may be Interesting,. I'd not heard of those before. I will have to try to find some data sheets, etc. I don't recall them being mentioned in the ook 'CRT Displays' (part of the Radiation Lab series), but I may well have missed them. > > Tektronix -- use large-screen electrostatic CRTs. But the DEC VR14 and > > the Vectrex video game both use electromagnet CRTs. > > The DEC VR14/VR17 are electromagnetic CRTs. The two push-pull power As is th VR12 (used on the PDP12) I believe. No, I don't have one, but I do have the complete PDP12 technical docs, etc. I think I also have a 'spare' VR12 deflection module somewhere. > amplifiers for both ordinates as well as the current through the > deflection coils are quite impressive. YEs, there's a heatsink with 4 large power trnasitors under the flip-chip backplane IIRC. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 24 15:46:48 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:46:48 -0700 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: from "Christian Corti" at Oct 24, 8 11:17:05 am, Message-ID: <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2008 at 21:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > I just want to mention that there were polar-coordinate tubes. They may be > > Interesting,. I'd not heard of those before. I will have to try to find > some data sheets, etc. > > I don't recall them being mentioned in the ook 'CRT Displays' (part of > the Radiation Lab series), but I may well have missed them. Weren't they used for radar displays? Cheers, Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 21:57:08 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:57:08 -0500 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: from <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I dont think the electrodes changed in the tubes. I think it was sine / cosine on the XY deflection plates, (which would generate a circle). Modulating from 0,0 to X, Y display circle max was from a sine cos pot on the antenna. The line was drawn with a sawtooth generator at a ramp rate that was scaled to the grid ('radar mile', 1 Usec). This produced the familiar rotating radar display. Echoes modulated Z (beam intensitiy). Randy > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:46:48 -0700 > Subject: Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] > > On 24 Oct 2008 at 21:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I just want to mention that there were polar-coordinate tubes. They may be > > > > Interesting,. I'd not heard of those before. I will have to try to find > > some data sheets, etc. > > > > I don't recall them being mentioned in the ook 'CRT Displays' (part of > > the Radiation Lab series), but I may well have missed them. > > Weren't they used for radar displays? > > Cheers, > Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ When your life is on the go?take your life with you. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 22:00:51 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:00:51 -0500 Subject: radar display [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: from <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: opps, that sine cosine pot X sweep sawtooth generator to create the rotating vector. Randy > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:46:48 -0700 > Subject: Re: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] > > On 24 Oct 2008 at 21:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I just want to mention that there were polar-coordinate tubes. They may be > > > > Interesting,. I'd not heard of those before. I will have to try to find > > some data sheets, etc. > > > > I don't recall them being mentioned in the ook 'CRT Displays' (part of > > the Radiation Lab series), but I may well have missed them. > > Weren't they used for radar displays? > > Cheers, > Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008 From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Oct 24 23:22:50 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:22:50 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server test (again) Message-ID: <49029F1A.3030506@brutman.com> I'm getting ready for the 25h anniversary of the PCjr announcement on Nov 1st. I plan to have the machine up and running serving as an 'electronic' guestbook for anybody who wants to look at it. If anybody wants to preview it and help me test it (again), it is running. Just telnet to 97.86.233.68. Since the last series of tests I've: - Added user registration and passwords - Added a session timeout - Added a 'leave a comment' feature - Fixed a major bug in the TCP reset segment handling code - Added a 'memdump' command so that you and peek at me in realtime - Recognize ASCII 127 (Rubout) as well as ASCII 8 (DEL) for editing - And quite a few other miscellaneous changes. I didn't do much with the telnet option negotiation. It should be usable by common Linux and Windows clients. It did pretty well with other telnet clients last time, but I didn't get around to things like auto-login or anything specific to terminal types. The code is around 80KB in size, which includes all of the TCP/IP stack. RAM utilization is a bit higher - most of it is buffer space. It has sockets and buffers available for 10 simultaneous users; I'm kind of curious to see how it holds up. (Tracing is at a minimum to speed it up, but it is still a 4.77Mhz machine.) Oh, and while you are on, don't forget to leave a comment! Thanks in advance, Mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 23:26:31 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:26:31 -0400 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Weren't they used for radar displays? If he means J-scopes, yes. They have a trace that runs in a circle, and a deflection plate - actually a pin - running down the centerline of the tube. The signal on the pin can deflect the trace out a bit. Early radar alitimeters have them. I am not sure if that is what he means, however... And then there is the 6762 Wamoscope. It had electrostatic plates for centering the trace, but the business was done with klystron-ish action. They were combination CRT/TWT tubes. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 23:32:39 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:32:39 -0400 Subject: radar display [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > opps, that sine cosine pot X sweep sawtooth generator to create the rotating vector. That sounds pretty standard for a PPI scope - there is nothing weird about those CRTs. Either electrostatic (sin/cos on the plates) or magnetic (generally a rotating yoke) deflection was used to make the raster. The antenna position sensors were almost always selsyns, as potentiometers are just too sloppy. -- Will From steerex at ccvn.com Fri Oct 24 08:06:46 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:06:46 -0400 Subject: FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System In-Reply-To: <4900D86F.8070807@machineroom.info> References: <1224721545.17212.5.camel@bart> <4900D86F.8070807@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <1224853606.4416.14.camel@bart> > > If anyone is interested, make an offer for Tab Books: "How To Design > > Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System" by Robert P. Haviland > > Pub. 1979 . 308 ppg. This is a complete how-to for the SC/MP > > microprocessor. > > > > Reply to me directly. Postage will be from Western North Carolina. > > > > > Strangely, I'm sure I have the same title from the same publisher > sitting on my shelf but it's for an 8080. When I was younger my Father > built the design on some veroboard and found many errors in the book. > One of these days I'll get around to finishing it! > > Cheers, > James Hmm.... I received several replies to the offer and did some more searching on the net. It seems books with the same title are available on both Amazon and Abebooks and are very reasonably priced. The booksellers listings indicate they are all softcover. The version I have is hardcover. The book is a pretty complete "how-to" for building the authors SC/MP based "SCAMP" computer. It's quite possible the author did versions with the same title except focusing on different microprocessors. Other logical offspring would be the Z80, 6502,and 6800. Does anyone have other versions of the book? See ya, SteveRob -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 24 09:24:40 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810241426.KAA21559@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...CRTs...vector...raster...electrostatic...magnetic...] > I just want to mention that there were polar-coordinate tubes. Wow. I can't even imagine how I'd build a deflection system that worked in polar coordinates. Do you happen to know anything about how the deflection worked? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordon.oliver at optusnet.com.au Sat Oct 25 00:39:52 2008 From: gordon.oliver at optusnet.com.au (Gordon Oliver) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:39:52 +1100 Subject: HP4952A and HP4957A software Message-ID: <006001c93664$1adc1430$50943c90$@oliver@optusnet.com.au> I'm trying to find some software for these two testers, I'd appreciate if someone could help me. Gordon. From gordon.oliver at optusnet.com.au Sat Oct 25 00:48:32 2008 From: gordon.oliver at optusnet.com.au (Gordon Oliver) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:48:32 +1100 Subject: Just won HP 4952A / HP 18179A protocol analyzer/serial adapter Message-ID: <006501c93665$50cdc830$f2695890$@oliver@optusnet.com.au> Al, do you still have those HP4852A disk images? - I have a 4952 and 4957 I'm searching for utilities and other software for. I'd be really grateful if you could help. Gordon From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Oct 25 07:11:55 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:11:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <200810241426.KAA21559@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200810241426.KAA21559@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote: >> I just want to mention that there were polar-coordinate tubes. > > Wow. I can't even imagine how I'd build a deflection system that > worked in polar coordinates. Do you happen to know anything about how > the deflection worked? I've never seen such a tube in any equipment myself, but there is a very interesting (German) discussion on the RCA 3DP1 polar-coordinate tube: http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/3dp1_3dp1_polarkoordinaten_roehre.html Nonetheless I recommend having a look at this link as there are great pictures from the tube including pinout, data and photos from a disassembled tube. This particular tube has four deflection plates as in an ordinary electrostatically deflected tube. You apply a sine/cosine voltage to the plates to create a circle. But additionally there's a needle at the center of the screen used for the polar deflection. Maybe there is more information in the patents 2328259 (Polar coordinate cathode-ray tube, 1943) and 2864033 (Polar coordinate tube, 1958), both found on freepatentsonline.com, but the site seems to be non-functional at the moment. Christian From rcini at optonline.net Sat Oct 25 08:20:05 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:20:05 -0400 Subject: Just won HP 4952A / HP 18179A protocol analyzer/serial adapter In-Reply-To: <006501c93665$50cdc830$f2695890$%oliver@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 10/25/08 1:48 AM, "Gordon Oliver" wrote: > Al, do you still have those HP4852A disk images? - I have a 4952 and 4957 > I'm searching for utilities and other software for. I'd be really grateful > if you could help. > > > > Gordon 4952 information is available under "Hewlett Packard" on this page of my Web site: http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/systems.htm Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Oct 25 08:26:39 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:26:39 -0400 Subject: identify, and need any parts from old (ppro?) Unisys tower Message-ID: <49031E8F.9060500@hawkmountain.net> A friend of mine put in the dumpster before it goes and old Unisys tower. It is just a chassis. A big 'monster' for what appears to be an ATXish chassis. It has a huge power supply... with 3 connectors similar to ATX but in various sizes. It has 8 removable wide scsi trays and at the top had 3 or 5 5.25" bays and 1 3.5" floppy drive. The P/N within the front drive bay door is 91.58701.029 and the trays are 55.59903.031. I don't know what this is ? tried identifying it online, but no luck. Wonder if this could have been a 6x6 ? (in which case too bad the person he bought the case from gutted it) (he was going to use it for a PC case, but the huge power supply with custom wiring shelved the project for several years and now you can have a storage powerhouse in a smaller than regular ATX tower... so the behemoth went to the dumpster). If anyone can use these trays or power supply (or any other part from the chassis (front plastic, etc)... let me know... figure $5 for 4 drive trays, $5 for the power supply... not sure what else anyone could use off it... (front plastic is good except for where someone tried to paint/etc over the Unisys logo). -- Curt From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Oct 25 06:52:38 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:52:38 +0000 Subject: HP4952A and HP4957A software In-Reply-To: <006001c93664$1adc1430$50943c90$@oliver@optusnet.com.au> References: <006001c93664$1adc1430$50943c90$@oliver@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20081025115238.GA30260@usap.gov> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 04:39:52PM +1100, Gordon Oliver wrote: > I'm trying to find some software for these two testers, I'd appreciate if > someone could help me. I have a 4951A, 4951B and 4952C. I have some software on TU-58-like tapes (for the 4951A ad 4951B), but no idea if a TU58 can be used to archive them. I have no 4952 software, but would love to have the terminal emulator package for it. I won't have access to my HP serial analyzers until December, but if it's possible to back up what I have, I think it should be saved and/or shared. If anyone knows how to generate 4952C diskettes, I'd love to hear about it. My understanding is that you can back up original software with the real hardware, but there's some form of simplistic DRM that prevents "sharing" application disks. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Oct-2008 at 11:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -59.8 F (-51.0 C) Windchill -88.5 F (-67.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.8 kts Grid 80 Barometer 674.0 mb (10855 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rcini at optonline.net Sat Oct 25 09:38:39 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:38:39 -0400 Subject: HP4952A and HP4957A software In-Reply-To: <20081025115238.GA30260@usap.gov> Message-ID: On 10/25/08 7:52 AM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > If anyone knows how to generate 4952C diskettes, I'd love to hear about it. > My understanding is that you can back up original software with the real > hardware, but there's some form of simplistic DRM that prevents "sharing" > application disks. > > -ethan I have a 4952A with the disks (available on my Web site). I made duplicates of the disks using Teledisk, but I'm sure that IMD or any other disk imaging tool work fine as well. The diskettes themselves are standard 720k DSDD disks, but if looked at through an MS-DOS "lens", the format is something less than 80 tracks (it might be 72 tracks with 9 SPT, 2 heads and 512b/sector). So, I recommend bulk erasing the disks first to avoid garbage in that space after the format, but that's just my Type-A neatness coming through. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 10:45:19 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:45:19 -0400 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <200810241426.KAA21559@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200810241426.KAA21559@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > Wow. I can't even imagine how I'd build a deflection system that > worked in polar coordinates. Do you happen to know anything about how > the deflection worked? Get some WW2 vintage radar tech manuals. They explain it all. -- Will From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Oct 25 12:28:18 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:28:18 -0600 Subject: C code to drive Packet driver posted (Was Re: PCjr Telnet Server test (again) In-Reply-To: <49029F1A.3030506@brutman.com> References: <49029F1A.3030506@brutman.com> Message-ID: <49035732.1070102@brutman.com> I forgot to mention .. if anybody is interested in playing with packet drivers in DOS, I posted the source code that I'm using for the TCP/IP stack. This is the code that I wish I had when I first got started. It can be found at http://brutman.com/Dos_Networking/mTCP.html on the downloads section of the page. The code is in C with a little bit of assembler. It is commented well enough so that somebody should be able to port to other dialects of C (I used Turbo C++ 3.0) or even a language like Pascal. I'd be open to comments if anybody wants to give it a critical look. Regards, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 25 11:45:04 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:45:04 -0700 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: , <200810241426.KAA21559@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, Message-ID: <4902EAA0.31965.51B0985@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2008 at 14:11, Christian Corti wrote: >> Maybe there is more information in the patents 2328259 (Polar > coordinate cathode-ray tube, 1943) and 2864033 (Polar coordinate tube, > 1958), both found on freepatentsonline.com, but the site seems to be > non-functional at the moment. Far better is to use the US Patent and Trademark Office online database: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 12:59:54 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:59:54 -0700 Subject: TI Silent 700 on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <4901A99D.22336.351C95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4901A99D.22336.351C95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Wow, the dual cassette terminal. I think this is quite rare and collectable but not for me. If anyone wants it inspected, and/or shipped, I have experience with these and am in Eugene Oregon twice a month for meetings. At 60 pounds (from the listing) and my memory it is difficult to pack but I am sure I could do it. It has been about 15 years since I have seen one of these. Paxton Astoria, Oregon On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://eugene.craigslist.org/sys/891552741.html > > Don't know if $100 is a good price nowadays or not. > > --Chuck > > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 13:59:34 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:59:34 -0500 Subject: TI Silent 700 on Craigslist In-Reply-To: References: <4901A99D.22336.351C95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730810251159l47b332b1jba379957d315e90a@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > Wow, the dual cassette terminal. I think this is quite rare and > collectable but not for me. Well, given my login, I should be snapping this up :) I've never seen one - in fact I didn't know the cassette model existed. It looks like the large (original) "suitcase" model (hard to tell from the blurry photo.) Was the cassette unit an add-on, or is this a separate model entirely? This looks like at least $50 to ship to IL. Ufff. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 25 14:36:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 12:36:28 -0700 Subject: TI Silent 700 on Craigslist In-Reply-To: References: <4901A99D.22336.351C95@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <490312CC.25630.5B7FBE1@cclist.sydex.com> I'm in Eugene, so if anyone is really serious, drop the seller and me a note and I'll go get it and let shipment, etc. get worked out later. Cheers, Chuck On 25 Oct 2008 at 10:59, Paxton Hoag wrote: > Wow, the dual cassette terminal. I think this is quite rare and > collectable but not for me. > > If anyone wants it inspected, and/or shipped, I have experience with > these and am in Eugene Oregon twice a month for meetings. > > At 60 pounds (from the listing) and my memory it is difficult to pack > but I am sure I could do it. > > It has been about 15 years since I have seen one of these. > > Paxton > Astoria, Oregon > > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > http://eugene.craigslist.org/sys/891552741.html > > > > Don't know if $100 is a good price nowadays or not. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 25 15:56:18 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 12:56:18 -0800 Subject: FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working ComputerSystem References: <1224721545.17212.5.camel@bart> <4900D86F.8070807@machineroom.info> <1224853606.4416.14.camel@bart> Message-ID: <490387F3.42CE0BA0@cs.ubc.ca> Steve Robertson wrote: > Hmm.... > > I received several replies to the offer and did some more searching on > the net. It seems books with the same title are available on both Amazon > and Abebooks and are very reasonably priced. The booksellers listings > indicate they are all softcover. The version I have is hardcover. > > The book is a pretty complete "how-to" for building the authors SC/MP > based "SCAMP" computer. It's quite possible the author did versions with > the same title except focusing on different microprocessors. Other > logical offspring would be the Z80, 6502,and 6800. > > Does anyone have other versions of the book? There are two books "How to Design, Build And Program Your Own Working Computer System" (1979) and "How to Design, Build And Program Your Own Advanced Working Computer System" (1981) ("Advanced" is actually underlined), by the same author, and both from TAB books. The second book continues with some expansion ideas for an SC/MP based system, and then has some chapters discussing the Z80 and INS8073 processors. They are kind of weird books IMHO. As construction books I find them somewhat lacking. There is no complete schematic or board layouts, more like back-of-the-envelope snippets, now you figure out the details (a criticism I'd level at a lot of TAB books from the 60s/70s, actually). One has to do a lot of interpolation between the book and what might be a final, complete system. I'd almost be surprised if anyone actually built a system from the book, or alternately, someone who was competent to build such a system from the info provided didn't need the book. I keep them around, not with the intention of ever building such a system from them, but as historical examples of hobbyist computing from the period, although they were arguably 2-or-so years out-of-date relative to the market by the time they were published. They are more in line with what I would have expected to see published around 1976-77. They do have some other perhaps helpful sections for reference about such things as interfacing to current-loop TTYs, etc. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 25 15:17:16 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI Silent 700 on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <490312CC.25630.5B7FBE1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4901A99D.22336.351C95@cclist.sydex.com>, <490312CC.25630.5B7FBE1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Oct 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm in Eugene, so if anyone is really serious, drop the seller and me > a note and I'll go get it and let shipment, etc. get worked out > later. Did any of these portable printing terminals support lowercase, pipe, and backslash? I think I'm set with my collection of PT210s, but if I can find something like I just described... -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 25 15:48:09 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:48:09 -0700 Subject: TI Silent 700 on Craigslist In-Reply-To: References: <4901A99D.22336.351C95@cclist.sydex.com>, <490312CC.25630.5B7FBE1@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49032399.3553.5F99BBD@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2008 at 13:17, David Griffith wrote: > Did any of these portable printing terminals support lowercase, pipe, and > backslash? I think I'm set with my collection of PT210s, but if I can > find something like I just described... ISTR that the Silent 700 printed lowercase as smaller versions of uppercase characters. But that's a very fuzzy memory and it could well have been another terminal. Cheers, Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 15:49:58 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:49:58 -0400 Subject: FS How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System Message-ID: <4F9CC0D6EAD145208869C95A5820665D@andrewdesktop> ________________________________ On Thursday 23 October 2008 16:02, James Wilson wrote: > Steve Robertson wrote: > > Thinning my collection of collectible books. > > > > If anyone is interested, make an offer for Tab Books: "How To Design > > Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System" by Robert P. Haviland > > Pub. 1979 . 308 ppg. This is a complete how-to for the SC/MP > > microprocessor. > > [snip] ------REPLY------ If anyone is interested in building their own home brew computer they are welcome to join us on the N8VEM project. There is a known working Z80 CP/M home brew computer with all hardware and software information published and freely available. PCBs are available for the SBC, an ECB backplane, and the recently verified working ECB bus monitor (sort of a Jade Bus Probe for ECB). There are some builder created videos of the ECB bus monitor in action here: http://www.hd64180-ecb.de/html/video.html Soon I will be having a Prototype board PCB manufactured and hopefully not too long after that I will be making a Disk IO board PCB available as well. There are numerous N8VEM builder projects in various states of completion ranging from the GIDE, LCD displays, SD reader/writers, wireless links, NVRAM, and various other things better described by the builders. If you are interested in building your own home brew computer please consider joining the N8VEM project. Thank you and have a nice day! http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Andrew Lynch From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Oct 25 16:12:59 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 17:12:59 -0400 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access Message-ID: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> Hi One of my students was able to repair an AT&T 7300 (67MB version) UNIX PC powersupply. Now it boots up, but we don't have the username and password. Any suggestions? BillDeg From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 25 15:26:27 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:26:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <4901D1C8.13618.D205E7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 24, 8 01:46:48 pm Message-ID: > > On 24 Oct 2008 at 21:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I just want to mention that there were polar-coordinate tubes. They may be > > > > Interesting,. I'd not heard of those before. I will have to try to find > > some data sheets, etc. > > > > I don't recall them being mentioned in the ook 'CRT Displays' (part of > > the Radiation Lab series), but I may well have missed them. > > Weren't they used for radar displays? That's why I mentioned that book. The 'Radiation Lab Series' is. IMHO a classic set of books on radar and related technologies. I don't have all the volumes by any means (I think the full set is 28 books), but those I have are certainly worth reading. And I can't see how to make a polar deflection CRT either. I can think of plenty of ways (electronically or electromechanically (e.g. by rotating a defleciton coil around the CRT)) to do it with a normal-ish CRT, but I can't immediately think of a set of coils and/or plates where one applied signal give the radius and the other the angle of rotation. I did wonder about a longtitudinal magnetic field, like the 'trace rotate' coil in some 'scopes. But you can't get a full revolution from that, and I think it has some effect on the defelction senstivity. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 25 16:41:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:41:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: TI Silent 700 on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <51ea77730810251159l47b332b1jba379957d315e90a@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason T" at Oct 25, 8 01:59:34 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > Wow, the dual cassette terminal. I think this is quite rare and > > collectable but not for me. > > Well, given my login, I should be snapping this up :) I've never seen > one - in fact I didn't know the cassette model existed. It looks like > the large (original) "suitcase" model (hard to tell from the blurry > photo.) Was the cassette unit an add-on, or is this a separate model > entirely? I beelive it's an add-on. I have one and almost enough to make a second one, the latter being a Silent 700 and a cassette unit, obtained separately There are a couple of blanking plates you remove from the top of the Silent 700, the cassette unit mounting pillers then fit in the holes and are screwed down. There's a calb that hinks the cassette unit to an edge connector on the back of the Silent 700. I don't think there are any changes to the PCBs in the Silent 700, but I could well be wrong about that. -tony From rickb at bensene.com Sat Oct 25 17:54:05 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:54:05 -0700 Subject: TI Silent 700 on Craigslist References: <4901A99D.22336.351C95@cclist.sydex.com>, <490312CC.25630.5B7FBE1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >Did any of these portable printing terminals support lowercase, pipe, and >backslash? I think I'm set with my collection of PT210s, but if I can >find something like I just described... I have a number of the "briefcase'-sized portable units that have the built-in acoustic coupler., along with a bunch of spare parts. These were very popular with real-estate fand insurance folks back in the day, for use in gainin access to large timeshare systems where their databases ran. The models that I have (sorry, I can't get to them right now to get the model number(s0), do print lower case as smaller versions of the uppercase characters. They don't, however have the vertical bar (pipe) and backslash on the keyboard. The dual-cassette unit in the Craig's list posting is definitely uncommon. These were more for use as fixed location (not portable) terminals. The cassette drives acted like punched paper tape reader/punches, and could capture data coming down the line and write it to tape, as well as reading data from tape in response to control codes (or through manual activation) and sending it to the host. I used one of these many years ago, as a console on a PDP 8/e system. It was really handy. Programs could be stored on the cassettes as if they were RIM or BIN images, and loaded from the tapes using the standard RIM or BIN loaders. I have an excuse to go to Eugene, but don't know if I'll get time to get there before someone else snaps this up. Rick Bensene From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Oct 25 21:56:15 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:56:15 -0400 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> B Degnan wrote: > Hi > One of my students was able to repair an AT&T 7300 (67MB version) UNIX > PC powersupply. Now it boots up, but we don't have the username and > password. Any suggestions? > BillDeg > I don't know which exact version of OS you'd have on that, but I will say that many many initial versions of unix had tons of default username/pw combinations. There are lists to be found via google. If it's a 3B1 running AT&T System V, then I'm almost positive there were some very popular default accts that had to be removed -- most people didn't and resulted in many machines being vulnerable. Also, don't know anything about the file system, but if it's a common one, you could potentially (and carefully) install the HD into a linux box, mount it, retrieve /etc/passwd, and crack the sucker. With today's machines you might be able to brute-force the keyspace, or worst case, put a pretty good dictionary attack on it. HTH Keith From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 22:12:32 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:12:32 -0500 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> Message-ID: Totaly different machine, but I hacked a SGI Personal Iris I bought from Compaq this way: Piped the drive out the serial port to a PC (boot rom feature) found the /passwd dir took the encrypted string and rinsed it thru a program, 'john the ripper' with a dictionary kosdict It came back in a day of crunching on a 2 Ghz Machine with the password it was 'annamarie' but typed as if you moved your home keys up one. John searches for stuff like this. The SGI had the chicago source on it. Fun Randy > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:56:15 -0400 > From: keithvz at verizon.net > To: > Subject: Re: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access > > B Degnan wrote: > > Hi > > One of my students was able to repair an AT&T 7300 (67MB version) UNIX > > PC powersupply. Now it boots up, but we don't have the username and > > password. Any suggestions? > > BillDeg > > > > I don't know which exact version of OS you'd have on that, but I will > say that many many initial versions of unix had tons of default > username/pw combinations. There are lists to be found via google. > > If it's a 3B1 running AT&T System V, then I'm almost positive there were > some very popular default accts that had to be removed -- most people > didn't and resulted in many machines being vulnerable. > > Also, don't know anything about the file system, but if it's a common > one, you could potentially (and carefully) install the HD into a linux > box, mount it, retrieve /etc/passwd, and crack the sucker. With today's > machines you might be able to brute-force the keyspace, or worst case, > put a pretty good dictionary attack on it. > > HTH > > Keith > > > _________________________________________________________________ Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive. http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008 From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 25 22:50:36 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:50:36 -0500 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4903E90C.1030202@mdrconsult.com> Keith wrote: > Also, don't know anything about the file system, but if it's a common > one, you could potentially (and carefully) install the HD into a linux > box, mount it, retrieve /etc/passwd, and crack the sucker. With today's > machines you might be able to brute-force the keyspace, or worst case, > put a pretty good dictionary attack on it. Am I smoking crack, or do the "mount it on a PC" answers ignore the fact that it's an RLL drive? Doesn't that mean that a PC is not going to handle the 7300's low-level format? Doc From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 26 01:34:18 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M Handbook Message-ID: Would someone here like a copy of the CP/M Handbook by Rodney Zaks? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 26 03:10:40 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 01:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: last call for free-for-shipping stuff Message-ID: I offered some stuff here as free for shipping. They were claimed, but the claiments seem to have disappeared. This is your last call. All of this stuff is packed and ready to go. I'm starting a "Free For Shipping" page at http://frotz.homeunix.org/freestuff/ beginning with the below-listed items. Does anyone have a cleaner idea for doing this? Is the classic computer marketplace back up? * Morrow MicroDecision 3 with two extra motherboards. When turned on, the power supply hums but nothing else happens. Maybe with the two spares boards you can fix it. Two floppy drives are present. I never got a reply from the one who wanted this. Weight 25 pounds. * UniPlus UNIX manual set. It seems complete. This one was offered in March. Claiment was contacted a couple weeks ago who still expressed interest (you know who you are). Weight 11 pounds. * Empty 8-inch floppy drive cabinet with power supply. I forgot who wanted this one, so I'm tossing it to you. First email gets it. Weight 13 pounds. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 26 05:46:39 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 11:46:39 +0100 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <4903E90C.1030202@mdrconsult.com> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> <4903E90C.1030202@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Doc Shipley Verzonden: zondag 26 oktober 2008 4:51 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access Keith wrote: > Also, don't know anything about the file system, but if it's a common > one, you could potentially (and carefully) install the HD into a linux > box, mount it, retrieve /etc/passwd, and crack the sucker. With > today's machines you might be able to brute-force the keyspace, or > worst case, put a pretty good dictionary attack on it. Am I smoking crack, or do the "mount it on a PC" answers ignore the fact that it's an RLL drive? Doesn't that mean that a PC is not going to handle the 7300's low-level format? Doc You could of course use a standard RLL ISA controller WD and others made them when RLL was hot. And even a 486 out runs a 3B1 several times. But there are of course lots of P1/P2/P3 systems with one or 2 ISA-slots witch can be used. -Rik From apat at hol.gr Sat Oct 25 13:26:15 2008 From: apat at hol.gr (Alexander Paterakis) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:26:15 +0300 Subject: Amiga A2065 Message-ID: <8C96F51A-FB2E-4CDC-B141-DBAB778A65FC@hol.gr> Ethan, I saw in a very old post of yours that you have a couple of A2065 around. I am interested in obtaining one (if they are still available) to use for my A1000. If not let me know if you know where I can source one. Alexander From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Oct 26 06:57:47 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 07:57:47 -0400 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> <4903E90C.1030202@mdrconsult.com> <44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> Message-ID: <49045B3B.2080908@hawkmountain.net> Rik Bos wrote: > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Doc Shipley > Verzonden: zondag 26 oktober 2008 4:51 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access > > Keith wrote: > > >> Also, don't know anything about the file system, but if it's a common >> one, you could potentially (and carefully) install the HD into a linux >> box, mount it, retrieve /etc/passwd, and crack the sucker. With >> today's machines you might be able to brute-force the keyspace, or >> worst case, put a pretty good dictionary attack on it. >> > > Am I smoking crack, or do the "mount it on a PC" answers ignore the fact > that it's an RLL drive? Doesn't that mean that a PC is not going to handle > the 7300's low-level format? > > > Doc > > You could of course use a standard RLL ISA controller WD and others made > them when RLL was hot. > And even a 486 out runs a 3B1 several times. But there are of course lots of > P1/P2/P3 systems with one or 2 ISA-slots witch can be used. > As I understand it there was no 'standard' format for ST-506/ST-412 formats. It varied from chip to chip/controller to controller/ implementation to implementation.... I'm not sure what specifically differed.... but even from PC to PC, the one or two times I attempted to do it didn't work (different brand/model controllers). I suppose that it the PC MFM controller used the same chip that the AT&T 3B1/UnixPC used you would stand a chance, otherwise, doubtful. Anyone care to confirm/deny ? -- Curt > -Rik > > From locutus at puscii.nl Sun Oct 26 07:42:32 2008 From: locutus at puscii.nl (locutus) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:42:32 +0100 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> Message-ID: Is there no simple way to just pass a boot time argument so you can have /bin/sh as the init ? then its simply 'mount -o remount,rw /; passwd ' From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Oct 26 10:26:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:26:08 +0000 Subject: Amiga A2065 In-Reply-To: <8C96F51A-FB2E-4CDC-B141-DBAB778A65FC@hol.gr> References: <8C96F51A-FB2E-4CDC-B141-DBAB778A65FC@hol.gr> Message-ID: <20081026152608.GA11881@usap.gov> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 09:26:15PM +0300, Alexander Paterakis wrote: > Ethan, > > I saw in a very old post of yours that you have a couple of A2065 > around. That sounds odd to me, because as far as I recall, I only have one A2065. Most of my Amigas (with slots) have Ethernet, but that's because I make the GG2 Bus+ card and have plenty of unsold cards lying around. > I am interested in obtaining one (if they are still available) to use > for my A1000. I will not be selling my A2065, but depending on what sort of expansion case you have for your A1000, you might be able to get a GG2 Bus+ working in there (along with an NE2000 or possibly a WD80x3 ISA NIC). I can help you with that path. > If not let me know if you know where I can source one. I have no idea where you'd find an A2065 these days except the Vintage Computer Marketplace or that infamous auction website. My guess is that most people who have them, want to keep them. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Oct-2008 at 15:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -57.6 F (-49.8 C) Windchill -84.4 F (-64.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.0 kts Grid 122 Barometer 669.3 mb (11034 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Oct 26 10:44:19 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:44:19 +0000 Subject: OT:Humor What people think their stuff is worth In-Reply-To: <49011BF1.5060509@hawkmountain.net> References: <190818.54386.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49011BF1.5060509@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <20081026154419.GC11881@usap.gov> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 08:50:57PM -0400, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > How about a Sun 3/80 for $262.85 ! > > (not as bad as wanting more for it than when it was new :-)... but > I don't know anyone willing to pay over $250 for a 3/80.... if I did > I could probably be pursuaded to part with one of mine :-) ). I've never had a 3/80 (my first Sun box was a SPARC-1, followed much later by a 3/60). They looked neat, but I wasn't tied into the M68K line, so when they were throwing them away, I never bothered to pick one up. For $250, I probably won't ever bother to, either (but someday, I'd really like to get that 3/60 fired up). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Oct-2008 at 15:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -58.5 F (-50.3 C) Windchill -87.3 F (-66.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.0 kts Grid 118 Barometer 669.4 mb (11031 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 26 11:31:23 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:31:23 +0100 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <2116E9CBCBFD4E19A55D76C9E3434722@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens B Degnan Verzonden: zaterdag 25 oktober 2008 23:13 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access Hi One of my students was able to repair an AT&T 7300 (67MB version) UNIX PC powersupply. Now it boots up, but we don't have the username and password. Any suggestions? BillDeg You did of course tried the username 'install' witch is the name they (AT&T) used for the rootuser. By default this acount is not password protected. -Rik From g-wright at att.net Sun Oct 26 11:44:43 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:44:43 +0000 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <102620081644.16461.49049E7B0002AA340000404D22230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from B Degnan : -------------- > Hi > One of my students was able to repair an AT&T 7300 (67MB version) UNIX > PC powersupply. Now it boots up, but we don't have the username and > password. Any suggestions? > BillDeg > Hi, You might try "install" as a User name and see if it has a password on it. By now the drive will be having read errors and it might be best to just reload the OS. If you need floppy images contact me off list - Jerry From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 26 14:01:32 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:01:32 -0400 Subject: FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System In-Reply-To: <1224853606.4416.14.camel@bart> References: <1224721545.17212.5.camel@bart> <4900D86F.8070807@machineroom.info> <1224853606.4416.14.camel@bart> Message-ID: <200810261501.32742.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 24 October 2008 09:06, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > If anyone is interested, make an offer for Tab Books: "How To Design > > > Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System" by Robert P. Haviland > > > Pub. 1979 . 308 ppg. This is a complete how-to for the SC/MP > > > microprocessor. > > > > > > Reply to me directly. Postage will be from Western North Carolina. > > > > Strangely, I'm sure I have the same title from the same publisher > > sitting on my shelf but it's for an 8080. When I was younger my Father > > built the design on some veroboard and found many errors in the book. > > One of these days I'll get around to finishing it! > > > > Cheers, > > James > > Hmm.... > > I received several replies to the offer and did some more searching on > the net. It seems books with the same title are available on both Amazon > and Abebooks and are very reasonably priced. The booksellers listings > indicate they are all softcover. The version I have is hardcover. As are the ones I have (the two with the similar titles). > The book is a pretty complete "how-to" for building the authors SC/MP > based "SCAMP" computer. It's quite possible the author did versions with > the same title except focusing on different microprocessors. Other > logical offspring would be the Z80, 6502,and 6800. > > Does anyone have other versions of the book? I have two books with similar titles, but they're not at all similar in terms of content, nor are they by the same author. Perhaps one of these days I can find the box with my TAB books in them and see if anyone here is interested... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 26 14:02:27 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:02:27 -0400 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: References: <200810241426.KAA21559@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <200810261502.28140.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 25 October 2008 11:45, William Donzelli wrote: > > Wow. I can't even imagine how I'd build a deflection system that > > worked in polar coordinates. Do you happen to know anything about how > > the deflection worked? > > Get some WW2 vintage radar tech manuals. They explain it all. Do you know offhand if these are available online anyplace? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 26 14:10:42 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:10:42 -0400 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <49045B3B.2080908@hawkmountain.net> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> <44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> <49045B3B.2080908@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200810261510.43138.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 26 October 2008 07:57, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Rik Bos wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > > Namens Doc Shipley > > Verzonden: zondag 26 oktober 2008 4:51 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: Re: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access > > > > Keith wrote: > >> Also, don't know anything about the file system, but if it's a common > >> one, you could potentially (and carefully) install the HD into a linux > >> box, mount it, retrieve /etc/passwd, and crack the sucker. With > >> today's machines you might be able to brute-force the keyspace, or > >> worst case, put a pretty good dictionary attack on it. > > > > Am I smoking crack, or do the "mount it on a PC" answers ignore the > > fact that it's an RLL drive? Doesn't that mean that a PC is not going to > > handle the 7300's low-level format? > > > > > > Doc > > > > You could of course use a standard RLL ISA controller WD and others made > > them when RLL was hot. > > And even a 486 out runs a 3B1 several times. But there are of course lots > > of P1/P2/P3 systems with one or 2 ISA-slots witch can be used. > > As I understand it there was no 'standard' format for ST-506/ST-412 > formats. It varied from chip to chip/controller to controller/ > implementation to implementation.... I'm not sure what specifically > differed.... but even from PC to PC, the one or two times I attempted > to do it didn't work (different brand/model controllers). > > I suppose that it the PC MFM controller used the same chip that the > AT&T 3B1/UnixPC used you would stand a chance, otherwise, > doubtful. > > Anyone care to confirm/deny ? It's even worse than that -- the same mfr's card wouldn't necessarily work as a replacement if you had a different BIOS revision on it. I ran into this with some cards early on... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ken at seefried.com Sun Oct 26 14:08:40 2008 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FS: How To Design Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System Message-ID: <20081026190840.494FB3800072F@portal.seefried.com> >> > > If anyone is interested, make an offer for Tab Books: "How To Design >> > > Build & Program Your Own Working Computer System" by Robert P. Haviland >> > > Pub. 1979 . 308 ppg. This is a complete how-to for the SC/MP >> > > microprocessor. >> > > >> > > > > Strangely, I'm sure I have the same title from the same publisher > > sitting on my shelf but it's for an 8080. > Hmm.... > The book is a pretty complete "how-to" for building the authors SC/MP > based "SCAMP" computer. It's quite possible the author did versions with > the same title except focusing on different microprocessors. Other > logical offspring would be the Z80, 6502,and 6800. I had the SC/MP version. I found the TAB books to be uniformly low quality, both in production and content. I found enough fundamental errors in them that I never tried to build the actual machine, as I was prett sure it would not work, or, at least, it wasn't going to be more useful than grabbing data sheets and whipping it up myself. KJ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 26 16:38:06 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 14:38:06 -0700 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <200810261510.43138.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> <44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> <49045B3B.2080908@hawkmountain.net> <200810261510.43138.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4904E33E.6060805@brouhaha.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> As I understand it there was no 'standard' format for ST-506/ST-412 >> formats. It varied from chip to chip/controller to controller/ >> implementation to implementation.... I'm not sure what specifically >> differed.... but even from PC to PC, the one or two times I attempted >> to do it didn't work (different brand/model controllers). >> You're correct that there wasn't true standard. The 7300/3B1 uses a WD 1010 HDC, which IIRC was second sourced as the Intel 82062. (Some people field-upgraded them to the 2010/Intel 82064.) It is MFM, *not* RLL, so it definitely will not be possible to access the data using an RLL controller on a PC. Many, though not all, MFM controllers on PCs should be able to read it, especially genuine WD MFM controllers. Some other MFM controllers will be compatible, and others won't. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 26 16:40:49 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 14:40:49 -0700 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> <4903E90C.1030202@mdrconsult.com> <44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> Message-ID: <4904E3E1.8090305@brouhaha.com> Rik Bos wrote: > Am I smoking crack, or do the "mount it on a PC" answers ignore the fact > that it's an RLL drive? The 7300/3B1 does NOT use RLL, so using an RLL controller on a PC certainly won't be helpful. Some MFM controllers might work, but not all of them. Eric From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 26 16:51:08 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:51:08 +0100 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <4904E3E1.8090305@brouhaha.com> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com><4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> <4903E90C.1030202@mdrconsult.com><44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> <4904E3E1.8090305@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <8A23CA3439EA46D999139C00CE7B7484@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Eric Smith Verzonden: zondag 26 oktober 2008 22:41 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access Rik Bos wrote: > Am I smoking crack, or do the "mount it on a PC" answers ignore the fact > that it's an RLL drive? The 7300/3B1 does NOT use RLL, so using an RLL controller on a PC certainly won't be helpful. Some MFM controllers might work, but not all of them. Eric That's not my quote ;-) -Rik From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 16:55:30 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:55:30 -0400 Subject: anyone got any transactor magazine? Message-ID: anyone got any copies of Transactor magazine? this was a popular c64 magazine from the 80's out of toronto canada. I have quite a few, interested in collecting all the published issues if possible. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 19:29:30 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 20:29:30 -0400 Subject: CRT displays [was: computer graphics in the 1950s] In-Reply-To: <200810261502.28140.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200810241426.KAA21559@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200810261502.28140.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Do you know offhand if these are available online anyplace? Probably not. -- Will From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 26 21:24:11 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:24:11 -0500 Subject: AT&T UNIX PC - Need to hack user/password for access In-Reply-To: <4904E3E1.8090305@brouhaha.com> References: <49038BDB.3090901@degnanco.com> <4903DC4F.8050009@verizon.net> <4903E90C.1030202@mdrconsult.com> <44D987FCEE5B4EB9AAE665A525D7215C@xp1800> <4904E3E1.8090305@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4905264B.5030903@mdrconsult.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Rik Bos wrote: > > > Am I smoking crack, or do the "mount it on a PC" answers ignore the fact > > that it's an RLL drive? > > The 7300/3B1 does NOT use RLL, so using an RLL controller on a PC > certainly won't be helpful. Some MFM controllers might work, but not > all of them. My mistake, then. The drive that came in mine is an RLL unit, so I assumed it had an RLL controller. Doc From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 26 22:27:25 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:27:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCjr Telnet Server test (again) In-Reply-To: <49029F1A.3030506@brutman.com> References: <49029F1A.3030506@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200810270328.XAA14671@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > - Recognize ASCII 127 (Rubout) as well as ASCII 8 (DEL) for editing Um, 8 is not DEL; it is BS. DEL is 127 (rubout is another name for it; I don't know which, if either, the actual ASCII standard uses). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 27 05:01:12 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:01:12 +0000 Subject: Space Invaders Message-ID: <49059168.9090607@dunnington.plus.com> Does anybody in the UK have a classic Space Invaders console? I'm looking for one to borrow for a short while for a TV program. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Oct 27 07:40:14 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:40:14 -0500 Subject: CP/M Handbook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4905B6AE.8060307@ubanproductions.com> Is it a scan? Either way, I'm interested... David Griffith wrote: > Would someone here like a copy of the CP/M Handbook by Rodney Zaks? > From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 10:37:30 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:37:30 -0400 Subject: can anyone help jog my mmeory of an old vax model? Message-ID: The year was somewhere between 1984 and 1989 (I think). I was working in London, Ontario (Canada) at a place called "The Software Library", We arranged with DEC (A guy named Arpad Deak) to get a MicroVax, at least, for a while. I thought it was MicroVax-II or a MicroVax-2000, but it seems not. It would have been an early/late model. It wasn't a BA-23 chasis, or typical IBM PS2 looking case, it actually looked a lot like a toaster, sort of. it looked like a big white block, it was approximately 6" to 1' tall, 6" to 1' wide, and 2 feet long. I think the drive was 146 megs, it could only handle one. It definitely ran VMS. I vaguely remember I think the front cover came off, and the drive was right there, not sure the technology. it's been ages. but does anyone have the slightest idea which one I'm referring to? I tried google, but I can't find any pictures that look remotely like it. the closest thing is like this - http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://hampage.hu/vax/kepek/3300_B.JPG&imgrefurl=http://hampage.hu/vax/e_1990.html&h=310&w=300&sz=85&hl=en&start=31&um=1&usg=__TTdOJlc2feW8aRQafmy81FzSdwM=&tbnid=loYcS8ps3oqfKM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmicrovax%2Bpictures%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN but that's all "wrong". too tall, and the look is wrong. the unit we had was basically flat white, I don't remember any LED's (perhaps one). too many years gone by. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 10:54:14 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: can anyone help jog my mmeory of an old vax model? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4929.89929.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It wasn't a BA-23 chasis, or typical IBM PS2 looking > case, it actually looked a lot like a toaster, sort of. > > it looked like a big white block, it was approximately > 6" to 1' tall, 6" to 1' wide, and 2 feet > long. > Sounds kinda like a MicroVax 2000 : http://hampage.hu/vax/e_1987.html#2000 -Ian From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 11:11:11 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:11:11 -0400 Subject: can anyone help jog my mmeory of an old vax model? In-Reply-To: <4929.89929.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4929.89929.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: this picture looks close: http://hampage.hu/vax/kepek/vs2-2.jpg but that's not it, FAR too "blocky" I'm starting to side with the BA440 chasis as the most likely culprit. Dan. > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:54:14 -0700 > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: can anyone help jog my mmeory of an old vax model? > > --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > It wasn't a BA-23 chasis, or typical IBM PS2 looking > > case, it actually looked a lot like a toaster, sort of. > > > > it looked like a big white block, it was approximately > > 6" to 1' tall, 6" to 1' wide, and 2 feet > > long. > > > > Sounds kinda like a MicroVax 2000 : http://hampage.hu/vax/e_1987.html#2000 > > -Ian _________________________________________________________________ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 27 14:14:03 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cpm handbook claimed Message-ID: The CP/M handbook has been claimed. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From drb at msu.edu Mon Oct 27 17:07:22 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:07:22 -0400 Subject: Arpanet video Message-ID: <200810272207.m9RM7MDM017232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I'm always the last one to see this silly things, but in case lightning struck for once... A documentary about Arpanet, featuring some key names, including F.J. Corbato, and various BBN folks. http://preview.tinyurl.com/6jkh5a Google video and tinyurl, sure to annoy some, to whom apologies. De From jzg22 at drexel.edu Mon Oct 27 22:38:24 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:38:24 -0400 Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? Message-ID: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> I have a Qume DT-8 8" DS drive here which I'm trying to restore/repair to dump a number of 8" floppies, but I lack the manual and schematic for it, and I have no idea what the pinout for the data/power/spindle drive/etc connectors is. It doesn't use a standard shugart connector for data at least, its a 50-pin thing, so I'll need to make some sort of pinout converter once I know the proper pinout. The 2 terminators are both installed. I do know the drive needs 5v and 24v to run, and I'm not about to power it up without checking EVERYTHING first. I'm also missing the funny 3-pin and 6-pin molex-like connectors used to supply power to the pcb and the spindle motor, if anyone has any spares. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From jzg22 at drexel.edu Mon Oct 27 22:40:46 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:40:46 -0400 Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? In-Reply-To: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> References: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <490689BE.7050305@drexel.edu> Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > I have a Qume DT-8 8" DS drive here which I'm trying to restore/repair > to dump a number of 8" floppies, but I lack the manual and schematic > for it, and I have no idea what the pinout for the data/power/spindle > drive/etc connectors is. It doesn't use a standard shugart connector > for data at least, its a 50-pin thing, so I'll need to make some sort > of pinout converter once I know the proper pinout. The 2 terminators > are both installed. > I do know the drive needs 5v and 24v to run, and I'm not about to > power it up without checking EVERYTHING first. I'm also missing the > funny 3-pin and 6-pin molex-like connectors used to supply power to > the pcb and the spindle motor, if anyone has any spares. > Argh, of course. 50 pins, terminators, it must be SCSI or SASI. well, that makes hooking it up more interesting for sure... -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 27 22:48:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 20:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? In-Reply-To: <490689BE.7050305@drexel.edu> References: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> <490689BE.7050305@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <20081027204310.H78734@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > Argh, of course. 50 pins, terminators, it must be SCSI or SASI. well, > that makes hooking it up more interesting for sure... "normal" 8" drives (with SA800 interface) that do not use 50 pins and have provision for termination are rare. Even the early Mitsubishi 4854 1.2M 5.25" drive had an SA800 style 50 pin interface. That data interface is reasonably standardized and well documented. But, POWER connections for 8" drives were NOT standardized. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 27 23:31:26 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:31:26 -0700 Subject: Manual for MS780-E/F? Message-ID: Does anyone have documentation for the later MS780-E, based on the M8375/76 modules? I have the engineering drawings (thanks, Bitsavers!), but I'd like to find documentation similar to what exists online for the earlier subsystems (the 1978 docs). I'm troubleshooting a MS780-E in a VAX-11/785, and I'd like to understand just what I'm supposed to do about that glaring red LED (it's a misconfiguration indicator of some sort). I'm getting SBI errors while trying to run the diagnostics, and the memory subsystem seems the likely culprit. Thanks! -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 27 23:57:02 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:57:02 -0700 Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? In-Reply-To: <20081027204310.H78734@shell.lmi.net> References: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu>, <490689BE.7050305@drexel.edu>, <20081027204310.H78734@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4906392E.15688.1205DC34@cclist.sydex.com> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > Argh, of course. 50 pins, terminators, it must be SCSI or SASI. well, > that makes hooking it up more interesting for sure... Nope, plain old SA800 floppy interface. For docs, look at the QumeTrak842 docs on bitsavers.org. There's likely much more there than you need (unless you're thinking about building a drive from scratch). Cheers, Chuck From n6ki at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 27 02:38:11 2008 From: n6ki at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Vernacchia) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 00:38:11 -0700 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query Message-ID: <49056FE3.6060807@sbcglobal.net> I have come acquired a Heathkit Box of an RTTY Software program, unopened and I do not want to open the box and ruin it's value to collectors The only number on the box are there SF-9006 00108 In the estate sale there was a unbuilt kit with an 8 inch disk drive that a ham friend of mine bought The box size is about 12" X 12" X 3" thick I expect it is full of Floppy disks and a manual or instruction sheet I expect there may be 8 inch floppies in it as if they were 5 inch, why would teh box be so big ??? Any info on contents and value appreciated Thanks 73, Dennis N6KI From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 20:23:18 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Help with Sun video Message-ID: I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For the past week, I've been battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a Belkin 8-port KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD. - Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 Sync-On-Green adapter (no passthrough of sync signals): Works fine. - Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 adapter that brings out H+V sync: Works fine. - Connect either of the above to a port on the KVM switch: Switch does not recognize that anything is connected and refuses to pull in the relay (I can hear an audible click from any channel with recognized video). The status LED on the KVM keeps flashing to say "no one there!". Obviously no video. - Purchase Belkin Sun adapter box from eBay and connect it between the U60 and the KVM: KVM recognizes that video is there and pulls in the relay. The monitor _seems_ to believe that something is there, as the blinking green "nothing attached to me" LED goes solid on. However, nothing ever appears on the screen. I tried all DIP switch settings on the adapter (connected to Sun monitor sense lines). - In desperation, connect monitor directly to HD15 port on the Belkin adapter: Same thing. Solid green LED, no display. The same machine worked perfectly through an older 4-port Belkin unit (that I've outgrown, thus the 8-port). What on earth am I missing here? I don't even see a common denominator, but am hoping that someone more familiar with the details of Sun video can give me a nudge in the right direction. On the subject of the Belkin KVM: Is it possible that their "detection" is simply looking for a grounded pin or a pair of pins looped back by virtue of the computer being connected? Maybe expecting a voltage? If I could trick it into activating the port, I could just feed through from the 13W3 adapter and be done with it. Naturally Belkin's site has no information at this low level of detail... Steve -- From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 02:41:43 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <49056FE3.6060807@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <314235.97647.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Sorry, I can't even guess. --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Dennis Vernacchia wrote: > From: Dennis Vernacchia > Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query > To: > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 12:38 AM > I have come acquired a Heathkit Box of an RTTY Software > program, > unopened and > I do not want to open the box and ruin it's value to > collectors > > The only number on the box are there > > SF-9006 > 00108 > > In the estate sale there was a unbuilt kit with an 8 inch > disk drive > that a ham friend of mine bought > > The box size is about 12" X 12" X 3" thick > > I expect it is full of Floppy disks and a manual or > instruction sheet > > I expect there may be 8 inch floppies in it as if they were > 5 inch, why > would teh box be so big ??? > > Any info on contents and value appreciated > > Thanks > > 73, Dennis N6KI From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 28 05:01:36 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:01:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? In-Reply-To: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> References: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > I have a Qume DT-8 8" DS drive here which I'm trying to restore/repair to > dump a number of 8" floppies, but I lack the manual and schematic for it, and > I have no idea what the pinout for the data/power/spindle drive/etc > connectors is. It doesn't use a standard shugart connector for data at least, > its a 50-pin thing, so I'll need to make some sort of pinout converter once I > know the proper pinout. The 2 terminators are both installed. 50-pin *is* the standard Shugart connector for 8" drives. It is definitely *not* SCSI. And of course there are terminators, or least provision for mounting them, as in each floppy drive. Christian From ray at arachelian.com Tue Oct 28 05:37:06 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 06:37:06 -0400 Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4906EB52.9080806@arachelian.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For the past week, I've > been battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a Belkin > 8-port KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD. ... > - Connect either of the above to a port on the KVM switch: Switch > does not recognize that anything is connected and refuses to pull in > the relay (I can hear an audible click from any channel with > recognized video). The status LED on the KVM keeps flashing to say > "no one there!". Obviously no video. I don't know about your specific KVM, however, the Belkin 8 port one I have specifically looks for a keyboard port. Even if there is an active video source, unless I also plug in the KVM into a PS/2 style port on the computer end, it will refuse to display video. I'm not sure if it's looking for 5V or something else. You might experiment with a PS/2 style plug and see if you can provide ground and +5V on the appropriate pins - that might do the trick. I've had troubles even using a PS/2<->USB keyboard plug with some machines (i.e. G4 Macintosh), but there are boxes that simulate an always connected keyboard and mouse. When connected to those, it always worked. I don't know if you can still get those anymore - they were meant for PC servers whose BIOS (or badly written OS) would freak out if there was no keyboard attached and therefore behaved badly when attached to KVMs. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 08:02:54 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 06:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <367629.32366.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For the past > week, I've been > battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a > Belkin 8-port > KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD. > What on earth am I missing here? I don't even see a > common denominator, > but am hoping that someone more familiar with the details > of Sun video can > give me a nudge in the right direction. > > On the subject of the Belkin KVM: Is it possible that > their "detection" > is simply looking for a grounded pin or a pair of pins > looped back by > virtue of the computer being connected? Maybe expecting a > voltage? If I > could trick it into activating the port, I could just feed > through from > the 13W3 adapter and be done with it. Naturally > Belkin's site has no > information at this low level of detail... A lot of KVM's I have seen base their detection on receiving power from the keyboard port. This precludes their operation with a Macintosh, SUN, or other machine where you're not switching the keyboard through the KVM. Try connecting the keyboard input to another computer, and then you should be able to select that port. As for the video itself, most SUN machines use sync-on-green. In this mode, the sync signals are riding on the green video signal. The KVM might not know what to make of this, since it's not going to be getting a sync signal on the appropriate sync pins. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 28 14:11:21 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:11:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Oct 27, 8 09:23:18 pm Message-ID: > > I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For the past week, I've been > battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a Belkin 8-port > KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD. > > - Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 Sync-On-Green > adapter (no passthrough of sync signals): Works fine. > > - Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 adapter that brings > out H+V sync: Works fine. Does this adapater do anything to the green signal? Is it possile that the monitor is still using sync-on-green and ignroing the H and V Syncs from the adapter (if, indeed, they're even active)? > > - Connect either of the above to a port on the KVM switch: Switch does > not recognize that anything is connected and refuses to pull in the relay > (I can hear an audible click from any channel with recognized video). The > status LED on the KVM keeps flashing to say "no one there!". Obviously no > video. > > - Purchase Belkin Sun adapter box from eBay and connect it between the U60 > and the KVM: KVM recognizes that video is there and pulls in the relay. Does this just connect ot the video port on the switch, or to the keyboard and/or mouse ports as well? It wouldn't suprise me if checking for +5V on, say, the keyboard port was part of the 'I have a computer connected' detection. If it does just connect to the video port, it's possible that the swithc needs active sync signals on the H and/or V lines. Have you stuck a 'scope on the outputs of the adapter to see just which signals are active? > The monitor _seems_ to believe that something is there, as the blinking > green "nothing attached to me" LED goes solid on. However, nothing ever > appears on the screen. I tried all DIP switch settings on the adapter > (connected to Sun monitor sense lines). > > - In desperation, connect monitor directly to HD15 port on the Belkin > adapter: Same thing. Solid green LED, no display. Do you use the same connector on the monitor in all tests, or are the first 2 using BNC sockets or similar? It's possible the the monitor wi;ll not accept sync-on-green over the DE15 connector. It would be intereting to know what, if anything, is coming out on the H and V lines of that adapter -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 28 14:00:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:00:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? In-Reply-To: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Oct 27, 8 11:38:24 pm Message-ID: > > I have a Qume DT-8 8" DS drive here which I'm trying to restore/repair > to dump a number of 8" floppies, but I lack the manual and schematic for > it, and I have no idea what the pinout for the data/power/spindle > drive/etc connectors is. It doesn't use a standard shugart connector for > data at least, its a 50-pin thing, so I'll need to make some sort of Eh? A 50 pin connector on an 8" drive sounds like a standard Shuagart (SA800 type) interface to me. Why do you suspect it's anything different? > pinout converter once I know the proper pinout. The 2 terminators are > both installed. > I do know the drive needs 5v and 24v to run, and I'm not about to power > it up without checking EVERYTHING first. I'm also missing the funny > 3-pin and 6-pin molex-like connectors used to supply power to the pcb > and the spindle motor, if anyone has any spares. You should be able to find the +5V and ground pins (at least) by tracing the connections from the 6 pin connector to the logic ICs. The spindle motor _may_ be an AC motor, the 3 pins on that connector being the 2 sides of a power line and gound (the latter is easy to identify). Many of these motors, even in Europe, were 110V (and run off an (auto)transformer over here), there are a few 230V ones around, though. And of course the AC freqeuncy is critical, it determines the spindle speed (in general it was possible change the motor pulley to get the spindle speed correct at either 50 or 60Hz). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 28 14:06:15 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:06:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <49056FE3.6060807@sbcglobal.net> from "Dennis Vernacchia" at Oct 27, 8 00:38:11 am Message-ID: > > I have come acquired a Heathkit Box of an RTTY Software program, > unopened and > I do not want to open the box and ruin it's value to collectors I wonder why _anyone_ would want to buy a sealed box of unknown contents and then not open it up. Surely the purpose of software (if, indeed, that's what's in the box) is to be run on a suitable computer. -tony From mardy at voysys.com Tue Oct 28 14:26:33 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:26:33 -0400 Subject: FS: Grant Stockly Altair 8800 Kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F088FFD-6B65-4748-96E7-88F1F94B5759@voysys.com> I need to buy a snow blower so I'm going to sell my un-built Altair 8800 replica. This is from the first run of replicas that Grant Stockly produced. The kit is complete with the exception of the front name plate, which I seem to have lost when I moved this spring. I'm sure that Grant would be willing to supply another one, if asked. I paid $1650.00 for the kit back in February, but given that the nameplate is missing, I would be willing to sell for $1550.00 with free shipping to anywhere within the lower 48. Here are a couple of links showing the case. If someone is interested, I can supply additional photos of the remainder of the kit. http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/Altair/front.jpg http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/Altair/back.jpg Since this isn't eBay, I can also include the cat at no charge. -Mardy From ics65 at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 28 15:04:14 2008 From: ics65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:04:14 -0500 Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV References: <699694.90856.qm@web37105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c93938$5b00a310$20e0da45@efficienfhlqu9> Did you check with Bruce Ray at http://www.simulogics.com/ E-mail Address(es): bkr at WildHareComputers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julian Skidmore" To: Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:34 AM Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV > Hi folks, > > It seems to me that self-hosting 16-bit compilers for old minicomputers > are very thin on the ground. Yet from my viewpoint they are interesting > and worth preserving, because they are a good demonstration of what > could be achieved using fairly limited hardware. > > Recently, I've been looking at the Data General RDOS Fortran IV compiler > manual. It seems a very comprehensive version of the language, and it's > actually Fortran '66 with some extensions, and looks very practical. > However, the standard RDOS images for SIMH don't come with the Fortran > compiler, only assembler. > > Here are the only two references I've found on the net for the Fortran > IV tapes: > > http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/paper-tapes.html > > http://www.ludd.luth.se/~ragge/nova/swdocs.html > > How easy would it be to get these tapes transcribed; dumped onto an RDOS > disk and made available for SIMH? > > -cheers from julz @P > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 28 16:31:34 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:31:34 +0100 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: References: <49056FE3.6060807@sbcglobal.net> from "Dennis Vernacchia" at Oct27, 8 00:38:11 am Message-ID: <9AE731F3B9C24790A48CFACE50B5879F@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: dinsdag 28 oktober 2008 20:06 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query > > I have come acquired a Heathkit Box of an RTTY Software program, > unopened and I do not want to open the box and ruin it's value to > collectors I wonder why _anyone_ would want to buy a sealed box of unknown contents and then not open it up. Surely the purpose of software (if, indeed, that's what's in the box) is to be run on a suitable computer. -tony Yep and they all think they have the crown juwels.. Are you coming to the mainland this weekend ? Going to Allschwil I mean.(I can't ) -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 28 15:32:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:32:33 -0700 Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? In-Reply-To: References: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Oct 27, 8 11:38:24 pm, Message-ID: <49071471.16041.155E5C3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2008 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > You should be able to find the +5V and ground pins (at least) by tracing > the connections from the 6 pin connector to the logic ICs. The QT-8/842 even uses the same power connector as an SA-800 (i.e. 6 pin locking). And the motor is indeed AC. I have QT-8's with both 120v 60Hz and 220v 50Hz motors--and a pulley to convert the 50Hz motor to spin the drive at 360 RPM. Generally, the QT-8 is a drop-in for the SA-800 drives. It mostly has the same jumpers, including HS and 8/16/32 sector selection as well as the same bezel configuration. Bitsavers has all of the appropriate poop. About the only problem I've ever had with mine is the tendency for the head support springs to hang up, thereby making contact with the media impossible. Fortunately, it's easy to correct--just nudge the head laterally within its supports. All in all, a good drive; better than most 8" drives and a darned sight better than the Qumetrak 5.25" models. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 28 18:20:02 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:20:02 -0600 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:06:15 -0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I wonder why _anyone_ would want to [...] Haven't we already been through this on the list a hundred times before, Tony? People do things you wouldn't do because other people are not you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rickb at bensene.com Tue Oct 28 18:23:23 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:23:23 -0700 Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? In-Reply-To: <49071471.16041.155E5C3D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Oct 27, 8 11:38:24 pm, <49071471.16041.155E5C3D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: >The QT-8/842 even uses the same power connector as an SA-800 (i.e. 6 >pin locking). And the motor is indeed AC. I have QT-8's with both >120v 60Hz and 220v 50Hz motors--and a pulley to convert the 50Hz >motor to spin the drive at 360 RPM. >Generally, the QT-8 is a drop-in for the SA-800 drives. It mostly >has the same jumpers, including HS and 8/16/32 sector selection as >well as the same bezel configuration. --- Is there a difference between a QT-8 and (what the original poster asked about) the DT-8? I know that the DT-8 was a double-sided, double-density drive. The DT-8 (DataTrak-8) did have a spindle motor that ran on Mains AC. Back in the long ago days, I designed a floppy controller that worked with DT-8's (using an LSI controller chip and a custom data separator circuit). It was used in a proprietary bus structure system, that ran with Motorola 6809 CPU. I wrote drivers for FLEX and OS-9. They were nice, fast drives, as floppy drives go. As I recall (and this might be incorrect), they were "half height" (as compared to an SA-800) drives. Rick Bensene http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From grant at stockly.com Tue Oct 28 17:23:45 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:23:45 -0800 Subject: FS: Grant Stockly Altair 8800 Kit In-Reply-To: <3F088FFD-6B65-4748-96E7-88F1F94B5759@voysys.com> References: <3F088FFD-6B65-4748-96E7-88F1F94B5759@voysys.com> Message-ID: <0K9H00LMN2OYQ8L0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 11:26 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: >I need to buy a snow blower so I'm going to sell my un-built Altair >8800 replica. This is from the first run of replicas that Grant >Stockly produced. The kit is complete with the exception of the front >name plate, which I seem to have lost when I moved this spring. I'm >sure that Grant would be willing to supply another one, if asked. > >I paid $1650.00 for the kit back in February, but given that the >nameplate is missing, I would be willing to sell for $1550.00 with >free shipping to anywhere within the lower 48. Here are a couple of >links showing the case. If someone is interested, I can supply >additional photos of the remainder of the kit. I buy name plates from Jerry Schneider . He would be able to sell one cheaper than me because it wouldn't needlessly come to Alaska first. : ) He has sold them from time to time on ebay. Grant From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 28 18:53:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:53:28 -0700 Subject: QUME DT/8 - anyone have a manual/schematic for this? In-Reply-To: References: <49068930.8050608@drexel.edu>, <49071471.16041.155E5C3D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49074388.24317.16164D47@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2008 at 16:23, Rick Bensene wrote: > Is there a difference between a QT-8 and (what the original poster asked > about) the DT-8? I know that the DT-8 was a double-sided, > double-density drive. The Bitsavers docs for the 842 identifies the 842 as the "Datatrak 8": http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/qume/30006_QumeTrak842pd_Apr79.pdf My own drives are labeled as "QumeTrak 842", but match the (full- height) drives described in the aforementioned (DT-8) document perfectly. It could be that Qume models had a name change sometime around 1980 or so. The QumeTrak 242 is the half-height 8", but I don't believe it was ever referred to as a "DataTrak 8". It used a DC spindle motor and did not have native hard-sector (i.e. sector output and 32/16/8 sector selection; also, no optional on-board FM data separator.) As far as built-like-a-battleship-ness goes, a poor relative to its full- height 842 cousin. But if the OP has the 242, there's a document for it also on bitsavers. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 28 18:56:53 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:56:53 -0700 Subject: FS: Grant Stockly Altair 8800 Kit In-Reply-To: <0K9H00LMN2OYQ8L0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: , <3F088FFD-6B65-4748-96E7-88F1F94B5759@voysys.com>, <0K9H00LMN2OYQ8L0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <49074455.10428.16196CA1@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2008 at 14:23, Grant Stockly wrote: > I buy name plates from Jerry Schneider > . He would be able to sell one cheaper > than me because it wouldn't needlessly come to Alaska first. : ) > > He has sold them from time to time on ebay. I checked with Jerry a couple of months back on the Altair nameplates. ISTR he wanted about $50 for one--more than I wanted to pay for a machine I haven't used in ca. 30 years. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 28 22:49:05 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAXstation keyboard on a Wyse terminal? Message-ID: On Ebay auction number 110304716214 is what is claimed to be a keyboard for assorted Wyse terminals with an RJ-9 jack. However the keyboard shown looks more like a VAXstation / vt220 keyboard. I'm not talking just about the layout, but the case too. I have some VAXstation keyboards already. Dare I try them with my Wyse 99GT? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 28 22:56:02 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 23:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core Message-ID: I received this request for information on a core memory stack - does anyone recognize it? I passed on some general info to him about core memory and how they work. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:36:53 EDT From: BALLSHOP at aol.com To: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core Hello, I was hoping you could help me figure out what I have here. I bought it an estate and it had a note attached that said "40k Ferrite Memory Core". It's pretty amazing to look at, there are thousands of tiny wires and it has little black "doughnuts" at the intersection of each wire. Any help in identifying this would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, Scott http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/1.jpg http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/2.jpg http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/3.jpg http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/4.jpg http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/5.jpg From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 28 23:11:37 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:11:37 -0600 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca> Mike Loewen wrote: > > I received this request for information on a core memory stack - > does anyone recognize it? I passed on some general info to him about > core memory and how they work. I have no idea, but 40K sounds more like the original selling price. The big question here is the word width on the stack - Core memory tends to come in 4K blocks x N. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 28 23:49:02 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADDS VP90 terminal info Message-ID: Does anyone here know anything about the ADDS VP90 serial terminal? I'd like to somehow find a keyboard for it and get rid of it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 28 02:40:11 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:40:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200810280743.DAA02597@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] I've been battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable > through a Belkin 8-port KVM switch. [...] In case it helps, I have a Belkin 8-port (might even be the same model as yours) and my impression is that the KVM's idea of whether something is connected is driven off voltage on the keyboard connector. For example, if I have the KVM switched to a machine and everything's working, then I pull the keyboard connector, the relay clicks and the video goes away, even though I haven't touched the video connections. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 05:34:29 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV Message-ID: <699694.90856.qm@web37105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, It seems to me that self-hosting 16-bit compilers for old minicomputers are very thin on the ground. Yet from my viewpoint they are interesting and worth preserving, because they are a good demonstration of what could be achieved using fairly limited hardware. Recently, I've been looking at the Data General RDOS Fortran IV compiler manual. It seems a very comprehensive version of the language, and it's actually Fortran '66 with some extensions, and looks very practical. However, the standard RDOS images for SIMH don't come with the Fortran compiler, only assembler. Here are the only two references I've found on the net for the Fortran IV tapes: http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/paper-tapes.html http://www.ludd.luth.se/~ragge/nova/swdocs.html How easy would it be to get these tapes transcribed; dumped onto an RDOS disk and made available for SIMH? -cheers from julz @P __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 08:56:50 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: <200810280743.DAA02597@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200810280743.DAA02597@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote: >> [...] I've been battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable >> through a Belkin 8-port KVM switch. [...] > > In case it helps, I have a Belkin 8-port (might even be the same model > as yours) and my impression is that the KVM's idea of whether something > is connected is driven off voltage on the keyboard connector. For > example, if I have the KVM switched to a machine and everything's > working, then I pull the keyboard connector, the relay clicks and the > video goes away, even though I haven't touched the video connections. Bingo! That was the ticket. The one thing I didn't try was leaving the adapter box connected to the mouse and keyboard ports (which was indeed responsible for "activating" the port) and connecting video from one of my 13w3 adapters to the KVM port instead of trying to pass video through the Sun adapter. Now, I have keyboard, mouse and video :-). Next mystery: Why on earth won't this work with video going through the Belkin adapter? I did note that the options offered all use vertical refresh rates well north of 60Khz (fast for an LCD), but since I have more reasonable ones selected in software for both console and X server I thought those would preside anyway. Is it possible that the DIP switch settings on the Belkin adapter are overriding this to ill effect? Anyone familiar enough with Sun internals to know which presides? Steve -- From robert.galipeau at ge.com Tue Oct 28 10:05:57 2008 From: robert.galipeau at ge.com (Galipeau, Robert (GE Infra, Aviation, US)) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:05:57 -0400 Subject: STR LINK IIa Message-ID: It's old post but if you are still looking for a STR-LINK II let me know. STR LINK IIa Jack Gershon jgershon at steelindustriesinc.com Fri Aug 8 09:40:42 CDT 2003 * Previous message: Retro printer ribbons still up for grabs <017922.html> * Next message: Interesting Burroughs Photo Site <017905.html> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] I saw a post of yours from last year. I have a manual for this item if you still require it. I am actually looking for a replacement for our STR LINK IIa, or at the very least, the belt for the tape drive on it. Jack * Previous message: Retro printer ribbons still up for grabs <017922.html> * Next message: Interesting Burroughs Photo Site <017905.html> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the cctech mailing list GE Aviation ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ b Bob Galipeau Cell Support Leader Plant IV Maintenance General Electric Company 1000 Western Ave MD 164M1 Lynn, MA 01910 * Phone: (781) 594-6426 dial comm 263-6426 * Mobile: (781) 858-5998 * Fax: (781) 594-7815 dial comm 263-7815 * E-mail: robert.galipeau at ge.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 18:34:43 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For the past week, I've been >> battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a Belkin 8-port >> KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD. >> >> - Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 Sync-On-Green >> adapter (no passthrough of sync signals): Works fine. >> >> - Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 adapter that brings >> out H+V sync: Works fine. > > Does this adapater do anything to the green signal? Is it possile that > the monitor is still using sync-on-green and ignroing the H and V Syncs > from the adapter (if, indeed, they're even active)? Not sure what you mean. If there's sync-on-green, it will be there. The second adapter just happens to pass through H&V sync also. Both work when the monitor is connected to the workstation through them. These are strictly passive adapters - not to be confused with the Belkin adapter which has active circuitry and handle keyboard and mouse along with video. >> - Connect either of the above to a port on the KVM switch: Switch does >> not recognize that anything is connected and refuses to pull in the relay >> (I can hear an audible click from any channel with recognized video). The >> status LED on the KVM keeps flashing to say "no one there!". Obviously no >> video. >> >> - Purchase Belkin Sun adapter box from eBay and connect it between the U60 >> and the KVM: KVM recognizes that video is there and pulls in the relay. > > Does this just connect ot the video port on the switch, or to the > keyboard and/or mouse ports as well? It wouldn't suprise me if checking > for +5V on, say, the keyboard port was part of the 'I have a computer > connected' detection. It connects to all of the above. I've already heard from just about everyone (thanks!) that the +5V keyboard power is what it's looking for to activate the port in the first place. One of the things I want to run through it is video from one of my Amigas, so it appears I'll need to build up a little 5V supply with a keyboard connector that I can use to fool that port (since the Amiga 1200 has its own keyboard and mouse). >> The monitor _seems_ to believe that something is there, as the blinking >> green "nothing attached to me" LED goes solid on. However, nothing ever >> appears on the screen. I tried all DIP switch settings on the adapter >> (connected to Sun monitor sense lines). >> >> - In desperation, connect monitor directly to HD15 port on the Belkin >> adapter: Same thing. Solid green LED, no display. > > Do you use the same connector on the monitor in all tests, or are the > first 2 using BNC sockets or similar? It's possible the the monitor > wi;ll not accept sync-on-green over the DE15 connector. Sorry. In all cases I'm using a PC-standard VGA-VGA (HD15M-HD15M) cable. I'm starting to suspect that the Belkin converter box may be defective, in that it appears sync _is_ getting through while video is not. I can't think of any other reason why the monitor comes out of standby and yet displays a black screen. Will get a scope on it soonish and see what's coming out. Steve -- From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue Oct 28 19:07:13 2008 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:07:13 -0600 Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV References: <699694.90856.qm@web37105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001f01c93938$5b00a310$20e0da45@efficienfhlqu9> Message-ID: <002301c9395a$5084f360$10e2d746@linksys> The short version of the story is... EMC still considers all of its Data General 16-bit software intellectual property, subject to license restrictions and not available for any non-approved distribution. There is no "hobbyist" or "educational use" or "non-commercial use" exceptions at this point. The one-of-a-kind RDOS license for use with SIMH is truly a thorn in the EMC legal department's side, and they state that it applies to that specific version and copy of RDOS (i.e. does not extend to any other flavor of RDOS, such as Eclipse, or Mapped Eclipse, or Mapped Nova, or Mapped Nova 3, or...). Perhaps the upcoming year will see a change in the official EMC position... ;-) If you were looking at compilers, then the DG FORTRAN 5 could be compared to the FORTRAN IV. The F5 compiler was a very impressive piece of software, and dwarfed the FIV product in almost all aspects. And if you wanted an even better sample of what could be done in a 16-bit environment, then look at the original DG ALGOL, and its subsequent DG/L compiler. In fact, the DG F5 compiler was written in ALGOL. Truly a fantastic, under-appreciated 16-bit computer implementation. Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Wiegand" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 02:04 PM Subject: Re: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV > Did you check with Bruce Ray at http://www.simulogics.com/ > > E-mail Address(es): > bkr at WildHareComputers.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Julian Skidmore" > To: > Cc: ; > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:34 AM > Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV > > >> Hi folks, >> >> It seems to me that self-hosting 16-bit compilers for old minicomputers >> are very thin on the ground. Yet from my viewpoint they are interesting >> and worth preserving, because they are a good demonstration of what >> could be achieved using fairly limited hardware. >> >> Recently, I've been looking at the Data General RDOS Fortran IV compiler >> manual. It seems a very comprehensive version of the language, and it's >> actually Fortran '66 with some extensions, and looks very practical. >> However, the standard RDOS images for SIMH don't come with the Fortran >> compiler, only assembler. >> >> Here are the only two references I've found on the net for the Fortran >> IV tapes: >> >> http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/paper-tapes.html >> >> http://www.ludd.luth.se/~ragge/nova/swdocs.html >> >> How easy would it be to get these tapes transcribed; dumped onto an RDOS >> disk and made available for SIMH? >> >> -cheers from julz @P >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 29 00:23:16 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:23:16 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> I counted 52 wires x 52 wires in the top plane I counted either 20 or 19 total planes In looking at the photo, it appears that there are 2 of those wires thru each core, so this is 26*26*20 or 13520 bits total The connector marked X has 40 conductors. I would assume there is also a Y connector, and maybe fewer sense lines? maybe only 1 sense line per plane? This looks a lot in size and constructions as many 50's era core stacks I have seen, but that and a quarter will get you a cup or coffee (somewhere). Jim bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> I received this request for information on a core memory stack - >> does anyone recognize it? I passed on some general info to him about >> core memory and how they work. > I have no idea, but 40K sounds more like the original selling price. > The big question here is > the word width on the stack - Core memory tends to come in 4K blocks x N. > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 29 03:24:31 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:24:31 +0000 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49081DBF.1070101@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/10/2008 03:56, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I received this request for information on a core memory stack - does > anyone recognize it? I passed on some general info to him about core > memory and how they work. Just counting the X and Y wires and the stack height suggests it's 40K bits, so it could be around 4K words. It looks just like one a friend has, so I'll ask next time I see him. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 29 03:38:40 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:38:40 +0000 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca> <4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/10/2008 05:23, jim s wrote: > I counted 52 wires x 52 wires in the top plane > I counted either 20 or 19 total planes I count 50 x 40, and 20 planes. I think you need glasses, Jim :-) > In looking at the photo, it appears that there are 2 of those wires thru > each core, so this is 26*26*20 or 13520 bits total I only see one X and one Y plus the sense wire through each core (and the cores are laid out like that), so I make it 2000 x 20 = 40000. > The connector marked X has 40 conductors. I would assume there is also > a Y connector, and maybe fewer sense lines? 5.jpg shows 50 Y connections. > maybe only 1 sense line per plane? That's normal. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ats at offog.org Wed Oct 29 04:27:25 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:27:25 +0000 Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: (Steven Hirsch's message of "Tue\, 28 Oct 2008 19\:34\:43 -0400 \(EDT\)") References: Message-ID: Steven Hirsch writes: > One of the things I want to run through it is video from one of my > Amigas, so it appears I'll need to build up a little 5V supply with a > keyboard connector that I can use to fool that port There is a +5V line on the Amiga video connector that you could use for this. The classic Amiga-to-VGA adaptor has some 5V-powered logic inside it to buffer the sync signals, so it'd be easy enough to add a PS/2 connector too. -- Adam Sampson From trebor72 at execpc.com Wed Oct 29 06:27:07 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 05:27:07 -0600 Subject: DIGITAL 5 1/4 Floppies Message-ID: <4908488B.40502@execpc.com> I have a package containing five DIGITAL 5 1/4 Floppies as follows BJ-P598-RV SELECT/V2.30 MASTER BIN RX18 LIC. TO DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. DIGITAL TESTED 1981 SELECT INFO. SYS. INC. RJ-P599B-RV SELECT/V2.30 SUPERSPL BINRX18 LIC. TO DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. DIGITAL TESTED 1981 SELECT INFO. SYS. INC. BJ-P600B-RV SELECT/V2.30 INST/TCH BINRX18 LIC. TO DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. DIGITAL TESTED 1981 SELECT INFO. SYS. INC. Copy Working Installed Select Master Copy Working Select Install/Teach If any one is interested E-Mail me and we can discuss them Bob in Wisconsin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Oct 29 05:52:39 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:52:39 -0200 Subject: Grant Stockly Altair 8800 Kit References: <3F088FFD-6B65-4748-96E7-88F1F94B5759@voysys.com> Message-ID: <0fae01c939b4$a4e7a1f0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Since this isn't eBay, I can also include the cat at no charge. Does the cat has a cat-face to the Altair? Thanks Alexandre From ray at arachelian.com Tue Oct 28 18:50:06 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:50:06 -0400 Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4907A52E.9090200@arachelian.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > > It connects to all of the above. I've already heard from just about > everyone (thanks!) that the +5V keyboard power is what it's looking > for to activate the port in the first place. One of the things I want > to run through it is video from one of my Amigas, so it appears I'll > need to build up a little 5V supply with a keyboard connector that I > can use to fool that port (since the Amiga 1200 has its own keyboard > and mouse). I would build a multi-headed cable with maybe say upto as many heads as you might have non PC machines, then have one of them be a pass through male-female plug. You'd connect your real keyboard to the pass through, then the other heads would only get the GND and +5V. I don't think the KVM draws power from the keyboard ports, it's probably only there as a signal. You could of course hook them up to a real power supply. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Oct 29 07:30:24 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 07:30:24 -0500 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49085760.9070004@ubanproductions.com> I'm not any help in determining the machine that core came from, but I do think that it is beautiful! Part of what makes it cool to me is the three dimensionality of the entire stack. And when I saw the final picture, the one which had the soda can in it for reference, the full size of the stack was realized! What is to become of this core stack? Mike Loewen wrote: > > I received this request for information on a core memory stack - does > anyone recognize it? I passed on some general info to him about core > memory and how they work. > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:36:53 EDT > From: BALLSHOP at aol.com > To: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core > > > Hello, > I was hoping you could help me figure out what I have here. I bought > it an > estate and it had a note attached that said "40k Ferrite Memory > Core". It's > pretty amazing to look at, there are thousands of tiny wires and it has > little black "doughnuts" at the intersection of each wire. Any help in > identifying this would be greatly appreciated. > Thank You, > Scott > > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/1.jpg > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/2.jpg > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/3.jpg > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/4.jpg > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/5.jpg > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 07:30:43 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 05:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAXstation keyboard on a Wyse terminal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <459444.39122.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/28/08, David Griffith wrote: > On Ebay auction number 110304716214 is what is claimed to be > a keyboard > for assorted Wyse terminals with an RJ-9 jack. However the > keyboard shown > looks more like a VAXstation / vt220 keyboard. I'm not > talking just about > the layout, but the case too. I have some VAXstation > keyboards already. > Dare I try them with my Wyse 99GT? That isn't a true DEC keyboard, it's definitely something else. Many third party terminal manufacturers made almost identical-looking keyboards. I've also seen third party Wyse keyboards (although, not DEC-ish, more like PC-ish). I've got several third party terminal keyboards that came from VT-220 clones, and these are NOT compatible with a real DEC terminal. Terminal keyboards are almost always unique to the terminal model/series they came with. You can't mix Wyse and DEC keyboards. You can't even be sure that a Wyse keyboard will work on other models of Wyse terminals - there were several different types. Link keyboards can sometimes be compatible with Wyse as well (they made third party Wyse compatible keyboards, as well as terminals. Look for a switch on the bottom to change the pinout). You'll also find rebadged Wyse terminals. For example, the Altos terminals are generally just Wyse terminals with different logos. But plugging an LK-201 into a Wyse isn't going to work. -Ian From mardy at voysys.com Wed Oct 29 07:34:04 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:34:04 -0400 Subject: FS: Grant Stockly Altair 8800 Kit In-Reply-To: <3F088FFD-6B65-4748-96E7-88F1F94B5759@voysys.com> References: <3F088FFD-6B65-4748-96E7-88F1F94B5759@voysys.com> Message-ID: On Oct 28, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > I need to buy a snow blower so I'm going to sell my un-built Altair > 8800 replica. This is from the first run of replicas that Grant > Stockly produced. The kit is complete with the exception of the > front name plate, which I seem to have lost when I moved this > spring. I'm sure that Grant would be willing to supply another one, > if asked. > > I paid $1650.00 for the kit back in February, but given that the > nameplate is missing, I would be willing to sell for $1550.00 with > free shipping to anywhere within the lower 48. Here are a couple of > links showing the case. If someone is interested, I can supply > additional photos of the remainder of the kit. > > http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/Altair/front.jpg > http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/Altair/back.jpg Thanks to Peter C., I corrected the second photo link. Everyone can now see what Grant's "John Hancock" looks like. -Mardy From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Oct 29 07:54:00 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:54:00 -0400 Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV In-Reply-To: <002301c9395a$5084f360$10e2d746@linksys> References: <699694.90856.qm@web37105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001f01c93938$5b00a310$20e0da45@efficienfhlqu9> <002301c9395a$5084f360$10e2d746@linksys> Message-ID: <9118.1225284840@mini> "Bruce Ray" wrote: >The short version of the story is... > >EMC still considers all of its Data General 16-bit software intellectual >property, subject to license restrictions and not available for any >non-approved distribution. There is no "hobbyist" or "educational use" or >"non-commercial use" exceptions at this point. The one-of-a-kind RDOS >license for use with SIMH is truly a thorn in the EMC legal department's >side, and they state that it applies to that specific version and copy of >RDOS (i.e. does not extend to any other flavor of RDOS, such as Eclipse, or >Mapped Eclipse, or Mapped Nova, or Mapped Nova 3, or...). Perhaps the >upcoming year will see a change in the official EMC position... ;-) I'd find it humorous if a barrage of email went to Joe Tucci (he's the CEO). This email used to work: Tucci_Joe at emc.com I have no love for EMC or their attitudes or practices. -brad From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Oct 29 08:04:42 2008 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 06:04:42 -0700 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <49085760.9070004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <06F5409138FB4545A5AD678A33B39F97@NFORCE4> Tom Uban Wrote: > What is to become of this core stack? Per my discussion with the owner it's headed for eBay shortly. . . hopefully intact. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Oct 29 08:16:46 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:16:46 -0500 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <06F5409138FB4545A5AD678A33B39F97@NFORCE4> References: <06F5409138FB4545A5AD678A33B39F97@NFORCE4> Message-ID: <4908623E.5020405@ubanproductions.com> Please be sure to give us the heads up when it is listed. Erik Klein wrote: > Tom Uban Wrote: > >> What is to become of this core stack? > > Per my discussion with the owner it's headed for eBay shortly. . . hopefully > intact. > > Erik Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums > marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming > Marketplace > > > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 09:23:31 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:23:31 -0500 Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV In-Reply-To: <9118.1225284840@mini> References: <699694.90856.qm@web37105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001f01c93938$5b00a310$20e0da45@efficienfhlqu9> <002301c9395a$5084f360$10e2d746@linksys> <9118.1225284840@mini> Message-ID: > I'd find it humorous if a barrage of email went to Joe Tucci (he's the > CEO). Would it be humorous if Mr. Tucci then decides to simply destroy all Data General software and ban any chance of a hobbyist license during his time at EMC? Just because of a relative few hobbyists acted like dicks? -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 29 09:26:40 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 07:26:40 -0700 Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV In-Reply-To: References: <699694.90856.qm@web37105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001f01c93938$5b00a310$20e0da45@efficienfhlqu9> <002301c9395a$5084f360$10e2d746@linksys> <9118.1225284840@mini>, Message-ID: Not that anything like that has ever happened before. My inference from Bruce Ray's email is that someone is in talks with EMC, and it seems it would be ill-advised to stir things up. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:23 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV > I'd find it humorous if a barrage of email went to Joe Tucci (he's the > CEO). Would it be humorous if Mr. Tucci then decides to simply destroy all Data General software and ban any chance of a hobbyist license during his time at EMC? Just because of a relative few hobbyists acted like dicks? -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 29 12:42:29 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:42:29 -0400 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought I recognized it, until I saw the last photo with the soda can. Good heavens...that stack is HUGE!! I have one that's nearly identical, but about 1/4 the size of this one. I was told it was from an early IBM 360, but I've still not verified that. -Dave On Oct 28, 2008, at 11:56 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > I received this request for information on a core memory stack - > does anyone recognize it? I passed on some general info to him > about core memory and how they work. > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:36:53 EDT > From: BALLSHOP at aol.com > To: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core > > > Hello, > I was hoping you could help me figure out what I have here. I > bought it an > estate and it had a note attached that said "40k Ferrite Memory > Core". It's > pretty amazing to look at, there are thousands of tiny wires and > it has > little black "doughnuts" at the intersection of each wire. Any > help in > identifying this would be greatly appreciated. > Thank You, > Scott > > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/1.jpg > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/2.jpg > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/3.jpg > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/4.jpg > > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/5.jpg -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 29 14:55:01 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:55:01 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca> <4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> <49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 29/10/2008 05:23, jim s wrote: > > I counted 52 wires x 52 wires in the top plane > > I counted either 20 or 19 total planes > > I count 50 x 40, and 20 planes. I think you need glasses, Jim :-) > > > In looking at the photo, it appears that there are 2 of those wires thru > > each core, so this is 26*26*20 or 13520 bits total > > I only see one X and one Y plus the sense wire through each core (and > the cores are laid out like that), so I make it 2000 x 20 = 40000. > > > The connector marked X has 40 conductors. I would assume there is also > > a Y connector, and maybe fewer sense lines? > > 5.jpg shows 50 Y connections. > > > maybe only 1 sense line per plane? > > That's normal. My read on this is it's a (X=40)*(Y=48) matrix, going by the number of pins on the X&Y connectors, with 21 planes. I count 52 pins on the Y-side of each plane of the actual matrix. This makes sense as the extra 4 pins (52-48) would be 2 for the sense line and 2 for the inhibit line of each plane. (The sense and inhibit connections do not come out to the connectors, there would have been additional wires connecting down the stack when installed). In http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/3.jpg, one can see there are 4 wires through each core: X, Y, sense (diagonal), and inhibit (parallel to X), making it a pure 3D, 4-wire construction (the loopbacks for the inhibit lines are also visible). Given other aspects of it's construction (in part, the diagonal sense line) I think a 3-wire setup would be have been problematic or impossible. It does give the impression of being 50's-era construction, probably from a tube machine. Very pretty, I hope it doesn't get broken up, as intact 3D-stacks like that are pretty rare these days. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Oct 29 14:05:42 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:05:42 -0500 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca> <4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> <49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4908B406.9050404@ubanproductions.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 29/10/2008 05:23, jim s wrote: >>> I counted 52 wires x 52 wires in the top plane >>> I counted either 20 or 19 total planes >> I count 50 x 40, and 20 planes. I think you need glasses, Jim :-) >> >>> In looking at the photo, it appears that there are 2 of those wires thru >>> each core, so this is 26*26*20 or 13520 bits total >> I only see one X and one Y plus the sense wire through each core (and >> the cores are laid out like that), so I make it 2000 x 20 = 40000. >> >>> The connector marked X has 40 conductors. I would assume there is also >>> a Y connector, and maybe fewer sense lines? >> 5.jpg shows 50 Y connections. >> >>> maybe only 1 sense line per plane? >> That's normal. > > My read on this is it's a (X=40)*(Y=48) matrix, going by the number of pins on > the X&Y connectors, with 21 planes. I count 52 pins on the Y-side of each plane > of the actual matrix. This makes sense as the extra 4 pins (52-48) would be 2 > for the sense line and 2 for the inhibit line of each plane. (The sense and > inhibit connections do not come out to the connectors, there would have been > additional wires connecting down the stack when installed). In > http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/3.jpg, one can see there are 4 wires > through each core: X, Y, sense (diagonal), and inhibit (parallel to X), making > it a pure 3D, 4-wire construction (the loopbacks for the inhibit lines are also > visible). > > Given other aspects of it's construction (in part, the diagonal sense line) I > think a 3-wire setup would be have been problematic or impossible. > > It does give the impression of being 50's-era construction, probably from a > tube machine. > > Very pretty, I hope it doesn't get broken up, as intact 3D-stacks like that are > pretty rare these days. > > I agree about the hopes of it not being broken up. When I see these, I always have the urge to want to create some logic to drive it and to "see" it work. Not a particularly useful project, but interesting... Thanks for your analysis! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 14:28:30 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:28:30 -0500 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4908B95E.2080202@gmail.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > > I received this request for information on a core memory stack - does > anyone recognize it? Is there any info on country of origin? That might narrow it down a lot... I think it probably is late '50s, as core seemed to get a lot more compact in the '60s, and a single stack of 40k capacity would have probably been unusual on earlier '50s systems. Problem is, it looks like a lot of stacks that I've seen on machines around that time - same materials, same white lettering etc.; as we know the capacity then perhaps knowing which country's system it was would be enough (I'm not sure if it's possible to guess at machine word length purely from the core organisation?) cheers Jules From rickb at bensene.com Wed Oct 29 14:52:34 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:52:34 -0700 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca><4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> <49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Brent wrote: >My read on this is it's a (X=40)*(Y=48) matrix, going by the number of pins on >the X&Y connectors, with 21 planes. I count 52 pins on the Y-side of each plane >of the actual matrix. This makes sense as the extra 4 pins (52-48) would be 2 >for the sense line and 2 for the inhibit line of each plane. (The sense and >inhibit connections do not come out to the connectors, there would have been >additional wires connecting down the stack when installed). In >http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/3.jpg, one can see there are 4 wires >through each core: X, Y, sense (diagonal), and inhibit (parallel to X), making >it a pure 3D, 4-wire construction (the loopbacks for the inhibit lines are also >visible). I agree with Brent's analysis. I too counted 21 planes, which seems a bit odd, as typically each plane represented one bit in a word structure, which would indicate a 21-bit word...not something that matches up with commonly-used word sizes in 50's/60's era computers (12, 16, 18, 20, 24, 32, 36, 48, 60 or 64 bits). Perhaps some of the planes have already been removed? It is possible that whatever machine used this stack didn't use the "bit per plane" methodology, and instead used a 48-bit word (Y aspect of matrix), which would mean that each plane held 40 words, for a total of 40*21 (840) words of 48-bits each. This stack would likely be just one of many used in whatever computer it was part of, in order to have sufficient memory to be useful. It is also possible that this stack was used alone in some type of peripheral device. Frequently devices like line printers, rotating memory controllers, and other peripherals of the '50's and early '60's used smaller arrays of core for buffering purposes, which may account for its rather unusual arrangement. >It does give the impression of being 50's-era construction, probably from a >tube machine. I figure late '50's/early '60's. By the mid-60's, the size of the ferrite cores had been dramatically reduced. While the general construction was similar (in terms of 3D core stacks like this one), their physical size was significantly smaller by the mid-'60's. The reduction in the physical size of the ferrite cores was somewhat mandated by the use of transistorized driver circuitry. The amount of current required to "flip" a larger diameter core was sufficiently high that tube-type driver circuit was required in the early days of transistors. As the cores got smaller, so did the current requirements, which led to the practicality of transistorized X/Y/Inhibit drive circuits. The cores in this stack are large enough that as Brent suggests, the machine may have (at least) had tube-based drive circuitry, if not being a completely tube-based machine. Later, the three-dimensional aspect of core memory was changed, such that multiple arrays were woven into the same plane of core, making the core array fit on a single circuit board (typically with additional board(s) that provided the address decoding, constant current source, X&Y drive, sense, and inhibit functionality) in a 2-dimensional arrangement. Whatever this stack is from, it is definitely a work of art that should be preserved intact. Like Brent, I sincerely hope that it doesn't end up being reduced to 21 individual planes to "optimize" its sales value on whatever venue it is marketed under. Rick Bensene http://oldcalculatormuseum.com (where some of the old calculators have core memory, some 3D, and some 2D) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 29 11:19:16 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:19:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <9AE731F3B9C24790A48CFACE50B5879F@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Oct 28, 8 10:31:34 pm Message-ID: > > I have come acquired a Heathkit Box of an RTTY Software program, > > unopened and I do not want to open the box and ruin it's value to > > collectors > > I wonder why _anyone_ would want to buy a sealed box of unknown contents and > then not open it up. Surely the purpose of software (if, indeed, that's > what's in the box) is to be run on a suitable computer. > > -tony > > Yep and they all think they have the crown juwels.. When in fact it could be just an empty box. Without opening it there's no way to know what's inside. Many years ago, before the web actually, I bought a new, shrink-wrapped HP71 service manual at an HPCC meeting. The first thing I did, to the amazement of collectors present, was to rip off the shrink wrap. I pointed out that I bought the manual to learn how to repair HP71s, not to look nice on the shelf. > Are you coming to the mainland this weekend ? > Going to Allschwil I mean.(I can't ) Alas not. Thrre's no way I have enough spare money for something like this. I have to restrict my meetings to those of HPCC, which I can get to essentially for nothing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 29 11:28:55 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:28:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Oct 28, 8 07:34:43 pm Message-ID: > >> - Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 Sync-On-Green > >> adapter (no passthrough of sync signals): Works fine. > >> > >> - Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 adapter that brings > >> out H+V sync: Works fine. > > > > Does this adapater do anything to the green signal? Is it possile that > > the monitor is still using sync-on-green and ignroing the H and V Syncs > > from the adapter (if, indeed, they're even active)? > > Not sure what you mean. If there's sync-on-green, it will be there. The Exactly. I was asking if the adapter somehow separated the sync from the 'green' and passed on only the 'green' to the monitor (this is technically possible, of course). > second adapter just happens to pass through H&V sync also. Both work when > the monitor is connected to the workstation through them. These are My point is that in both cases the monitor could be using the sync in the sync-on-green signal and not using the seaprate H and V sync signals provided by the second adapter. In other words whether the adapter provides the sync signals might be irrelevant to the monitor, but might, somehow, affect the swtich. > > Does this just connect ot the video port on the switch, or to the > > keyboard and/or mouse ports as well? It wouldn't suprise me if checking > > for +5V on, say, the keyboard port was part of the 'I have a computer > > connected' detection. > > It connects to all of the above. I've already heard from just about > everyone (thanks!) that the +5V keyboard power is what it's looking for to Right. > activate the port in the first place. One of the things I want to run > through it is video from one of my Amigas, so it appears I'll need to > build up a little 5V supply with a keyboard connector that I can use to > fool that port (since the Amiga 1200 has its own keyboard and mouse). I thought there was a +5V output on at least one of the Amiga connectors. But maybe only on some models. > Sorry. In all cases I'm using a PC-standard VGA-VGA (HD15M-HD15M) cable. > > I'm starting to suspect that the Belkin converter box may be defective, in > that it appears sync _is_ getting through while video is not. I can't > think of any other reason why the monitor comes out of standby and yet > displays a black screen. Will get a scope on it soonish and see what's > coming out. This is an LCD monitor, isn't it? I have little experience of those, but I have seen a video projector that would detect a signal will incorrect scan rates, but not attempt to display it. Maybe your monitor is similar. I would try to measure the H and V sync frequencies. It may be (as your other message implied) that the adapter somehow gets the workstation to output some scan rate that uour monitor can't handle. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 29 11:21:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:21:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 28, 8 05:20:02 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > I wonder why _anyone_ would want to [...] > > Haven't we already been through this on the list a hundred times > before, Tony? > > People do things you wouldn't do because other people are not you. Of course. And there are plenty of things that _I_ don't want to do -- in fact that I have no interest in at all (whether doing them, watching them, or somehow making use of the results) that others do want to do. Fine. And in many cases I can understand why said people want to do whatever it is. But I really can't understnad collecting cardboard boxes that may or may not contain some piece of software, and then never opening them to check. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 29 15:20:29 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:20:29 +0100 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Oct 28, 8 05:20:02 pm Message-ID: <9C5F133D2B804D7C9F4043D561749FA7@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: woensdag 29 oktober 2008 17:22 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > I wonder why _anyone_ would want to [...] > > Haven't we already been through this on the list a hundred times > before, Tony? > > People do things you wouldn't do because other people are not you. Of course. And there are plenty of things that _I_ don't want to do -- in fact that I have no interest in at all (whether doing them, watching them, or somehow making use of the results) that others do want to do. Fine. And in many cases I can understand why said people want to do whatever it is. But I really can't understnad collecting cardboard boxes that may or may not contain some piece of software, and then never opening them to check. -tony You want to know if the cat is alive or dead ;-) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 29 15:30:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:30:20 -0700 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: , <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4908656C.8119.3157AD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2008 at 12:52, Rick Bensene wrote: > I agree with Brent's analysis. I too counted 21 planes, which seems a > bit odd, as typically each plane represented one bit in a word > structure, which would indicate a 21-bit word...not something that > matches up with commonly-used word sizes in 50's/60's era computers (12, > 16, 18, 20, 24, 32, 36, 48, 60 or 64 bits). An extra parity bit per word was very common(some Seymour Cray boxes excepted). My guess is this might be from a GE 200-series mainframe. Can one still get ferrite cores with hard magnetization curves for logic any more? I've always had this secret desire to play with magnetic core logic (not memory). Cheers, Chuck From gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz Wed Oct 29 15:43:31 2008 From: gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz (Gavin Melville) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:43:31 +1300 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca><4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com><49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Hi All, This might help date it. The Mullard core in these photos was purchased in 1960, and the planes are 48 x 48, 100 layers. So far I've resisted the temptation to cut it up and make some real money out of it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/8788341 at N05/1799948181/ Regards, Gavin Melville -------------------------------------------------- From: "Rick Bensene" Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:52 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: 40k Ferrite Memory Core > Brent wrote: > >>My read on this is it's a (X=40)*(Y=48) matrix, going by the number of > pins on >>the X&Y connectors, with 21 planes. I count 52 pins on the Y-side of > each plane >>of the actual matrix. This makes sense as the extra 4 pins (52-48) > would be 2 >>for the sense line and 2 for the inhibit line of each plane. (The sense > and >>inhibit connections do not come out to the connectors, there would have > been >>additional wires connecting down the stack when installed). In >>http://www.thegolfballshop.com/oct28/3.jpg, one can see there are 4 > wires >>through each core: X, Y, sense (diagonal), and inhibit (parallel to X), > making >>it a pure 3D, 4-wire construction (the loopbacks for the inhibit lines > are also >>visible). > > I agree with Brent's analysis. I too counted 21 planes, which seems a > bit odd, as typically each plane represented one bit in a word > structure, which would indicate a 21-bit word...not something that > matches up with commonly-used word sizes in 50's/60's era computers (12, > 16, 18, 20, 24, 32, 36, 48, 60 or 64 bits). Perhaps some of the planes > have already been removed? It is possible that whatever machine used > this stack didn't use the "bit per plane" methodology, and instead used > a 48-bit word (Y aspect of matrix), which would mean that each plane > held 40 words, for a total of 40*21 (840) words of 48-bits each. This > stack would likely be just one of many used in whatever computer it was > part of, in order to have sufficient memory to be useful. It is also > possible that this stack was used alone in some type of peripheral > device. Frequently devices like line printers, rotating memory > controllers, and other peripherals of the '50's and early '60's used > smaller arrays of core for buffering purposes, which may account for its > rather unusual arrangement. > >>It does give the impression of being 50's-era construction, probably > from a >>tube machine. > > I figure late '50's/early '60's. By the mid-60's, the size of the > ferrite cores had been dramatically reduced. While the general > construction was similar (in terms of 3D core stacks like this one), > their physical size was significantly smaller by the mid-'60's. The > reduction in the physical size of the ferrite cores was somewhat > mandated by the use of transistorized driver circuitry. The amount of > current required to "flip" a larger diameter core was sufficiently high > that tube-type driver circuit was required in the early days of > transistors. As the cores got smaller, so did the current requirements, > which led to the practicality of transistorized X/Y/Inhibit drive > circuits. The cores in this stack are large enough that as Brent > suggests, the machine may have (at least) had tube-based drive > circuitry, if not being a completely tube-based machine. > > Later, the three-dimensional aspect of core memory was changed, such > that multiple arrays were woven into the same plane of core, making the > core array fit on a single circuit board (typically with additional > board(s) that provided the address decoding, constant current source, > X&Y drive, sense, and inhibit functionality) in a 2-dimensional > arrangement. > > Whatever this stack is from, it is definitely a work of art that should > be preserved intact. Like Brent, I sincerely hope that it doesn't end > up being reduced to 21 individual planes to "optimize" its sales value > on whatever venue it is marketed under. > > Rick Bensene > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com (where some of the old calculators have > core memory, some 3D, and some 2D) > > > From gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz Wed Oct 29 15:52:21 2008 From: gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz (Gavin Melville) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:52:21 +1300 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core References: , <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca>, <4908656C.8119.3157AD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6639DCD41D2F4583825CACC5DB1FFB92@acclipsegavin> Hi Chuck, Could you PM me off list about magnetic core logic if interested. gavin.melville at acclipse.co.nz Regards, Gavin. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Chuck Guzis" Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:30 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: 40k Ferrite Memory Core > On 29 Oct 2008 at 12:52, Rick Bensene wrote: > >> I agree with Brent's analysis. I too counted 21 planes, which seems a >> bit odd, as typically each plane represented one bit in a word >> structure, which would indicate a 21-bit word...not something that >> matches up with commonly-used word sizes in 50's/60's era computers (12, >> 16, 18, 20, 24, 32, 36, 48, 60 or 64 bits). > > An extra parity bit per word was very common(some Seymour Cray boxes > excepted). My guess is this might be from a GE 200-series mainframe. > > Can one still get ferrite cores with hard magnetization curves for > logic any more? I've always had this secret desire to play with > magnetic core logic (not memory). > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 29 15:52:39 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081029135036.B71975@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > When in fact it could be just an empty box. Without opening it there's no > way to know what's inside. . . . or whether Schroedinger's cat is dead or alive From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 29 16:07:39 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:07:39 +0100 Subject: Looking for a ST419 Message-ID: <4908D09B.1020009@bluewin.ch> I am in the market for a known working ST419 MFM disk System software forces me to the 306 Cyl / 6 Heads format (@ 32 256-byte sectors ) Location : Switzerland . Jos Dreesen From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 29 16:13:00 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:13:00 +0100 Subject: HP9133D disk replacement. Message-ID: <4908D1DC.1080505@bluewin.ch> Closely related to the previous post : I actually have an ST419, but is in use inside a HP9133D. Looking back to old classiccmp articles indicate that it is not easy to replace the ST419 by other MFM drives of different geometries. Has this changed ? i.e can somebody report a success in replacing the internal drive of an HP9133 ? Jos From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Oct 29 17:10:54 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:10:54 GMT Subject: HP9133D disk replacement. Message-ID: <20081029.151054.23960.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com> Yah, I done that. The key is to find an MFM drive that has the same or greater Cylnder/Head geometry: It has to have at least the same number of cylnders, and at least the same number of heads. Keep in mind, though, that geometry alone does *NOT* guarantee that this will work!! The 9133 seems to be allergic to some MFM drives-- I could get most Seagate drives to work, for example, but not NEC's. My fave at the time was the Quantum Q540. I 'wasted' over half the drive, but I had alot of them at the time! When you format such a drive, you will not have a capacity greater than the original.[1] [1] Not quite true for the older 9133 V/X/XV drives. If you have a 'V' for example, you can replace it with a bigger drive, adjust the jumpers inside, and format for 10 or 15MB. -- Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: Closely related to the previous post : I actually have an ST419, but is in use inside a HP9133D. Looking back to old classiccmp articles indicate that it is not easy to replace the ST419 by other MFM drives of different geometries. Has this changed ? i.e can somebody report a success in replacing the internal drive of an HP9133 ? Jos _____________________________________________________________ Find the apartment of your dreams by clicking here now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3miig3oq0XVBmhWGbEvHZPivSHXPDcZh5ZgGa078tNALqmHU/?count=1234567890 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Oct 29 17:56:13 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:56:13 GMT Subject: Looking for a ST419 Message-ID: <20081029.155613.26951.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com> Geez, the 419 was uncommon, even in it's own time. And then, most of the ones I saw didn't work. If you don't mind 'wasting' part of the drive, I would think just about any 6-headed mfm drive would work. There's some difference (which I have been unable to quantify) between different models of MFM drives (of equal or similar geometry) that allows some drives to work in some applications, but not others. If there's anyone out there intimately familiar with the ST-506/412 interface, now would be a good time to offer some suggestions as to why this is so. -- Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: I am in the market for a known working ST419 MFM disk System software forces me to the 306 Cyl / 6 Heads format (@ 32 256-byte sectors ) Location : Switzerland . Jos Dreesen _____________________________________________________________ Get the party started with a huge selection of quality party supplies. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3lzvGedBaI1hnMJrqILfEueSSmE3OdO7ScuemGp0mfNPpgA2/?count=1234567890 From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Oct 29 18:23:09 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (ethan.dicks at usap.gov) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:23:09 +0000 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <20081029.155613.26951.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com> References: <20081029.155613.26951.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:56:13PM +0000, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > Geez, the 419 was uncommon, even in it's own time. Indeed. I don't ever recall running across one. > There's some difference (which I have been unable to quantify) > between different models of MFM drives (of equal or similar > geometry) that allows some drives to work in some applications, > but not others. > > If there's anyone out there intimately familiar with the > ST-506/412 interface, now would be a good time to offer > some suggestions as to why this is so. If you had to play with MFM and RLL drives back in the day, there were *four* drive geometry parameters you had to match up with what your controller/firmware was expecting: Cylinders Heads Write Precomp Reduced Write Current RWC was important with the ST-506 standard, but, IIRC, it fell away with the ST-412 standard, and the pin that the controller used to tell the drive to reduce the write current was recycled as another head-select line, allowing an ST-412-compatible drive to have 9-16 heads. More modern drives kept track of which track they were on and handled RWC internally, sometimes based on the Write Precomp value, I think. I don't know anything about the HP9133D, but I did fiddle with plenty of MFM and RLL drives on ISA controllers and non-PC controllers (DEC RQDXn, Commodore D9060/D9090, Dialog DQ614, etc., etc.) There was no hard and fast rule that X drive could always be replaced by Y drive of a larger size, but there were many specific cases where it worked - one I've done is replacing a Tandon TM602S with a Seagate ST225 in a Commodore D9060. They have the same number of heads (4), and although the ST225 is 20MB and the TM602S is 5MB, what you end up with is a 75%-unused ST225, and there's no conflict between the Write Precomp and the RWC parameters. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 29-Oct-2008 at 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.0 F (-47.8 C) Windchill -86.1 F (-65.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.9 kts Grid 28 Barometer 680.1 mb (10624 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 29 18:25:03 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:25:03 +0000 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca><4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> <49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4908F0CF.9010306@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/10/2008 19:52, Rick Bensene wrote: > I agree with Brent's analysis. I too counted 21 planes, which seems a > bit odd, as typically each plane represented one bit in a word > structure, which would indicate a 21-bit word...not something that > matches up with commonly-used word sizes in 50's/60's era computers (12, > 16, 18, 20, 24, 32, 36, 48, 60 or 64 bits). It looks pretty intact, and I don't think anything's been stripped. However, while I count 21 layers (image 2 and image 4) in the construction, the top layer has no cores (plain to see in images 3 and 4), so there are 20 planes by my reckoning. And counting rows and columns of cores (not just the wires), I see 40 x 50 (you can easily count them in image 4), which matches the X and Y numbering on the connectors. So I still reckon that stack is 2000 words x 20 bits. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 29 18:50:29 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:50:29 -0600 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <20081029135036.B71975@shell.lmi.net> References: <20081029135036.B71975@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4908F6C5.6050905@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > >> When in fact it could be just an empty box. Without opening it there's no >> way to know what's inside. >> > > . . . or whether Schroedinger's cat is dead or alive > > If he would feed his cat ... From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 29 18:46:09 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:46:09 +0000 Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4908F5C1.7080305@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/10/2008 16:28, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm starting to suspect that the Belkin converter box may be >> defective, in that it appears sync _is_ getting through while video >> is not. I can't think of any other reason why the monitor comes >> out of standby and yet displays a black screen. Will get a scope >> on it soonish and see what's coming out. > > This is an LCD monitor, isn't it? I have little experience of those, > but I have seen a video projector that would detect a signal will > incorrect scan rates, but not attempt to display it. Maybe your > monitor is similar. A lot of LCD monitors do that -- including the two in front of me now. > It may be (as your other message implied) that the adapter somehow > gets the workstation to output some scan rate that uour monitor can't > handle. Sun (and SGI) 13W3 connector use some of the pins not otherwise reserved for sync as monitor sense pins -- and the permutation of which are tied high or low tells some video adapters what resolutions (and hence scan rates, sometimes) to use. So it's possible. I think it's unlikely, though, because most adapters I've seen don't connect those pins in any exciting way, and anyway, Suns don't usually change resolution except during the boot process. All I can say is that I've never had much luck with Belkin KVMs on Suns and SGIs, or even PCs in some cases, and tend to stick to others that I know are less picky. The best ones I found are cheap Newlink ones. I have one here working happily with a Sun, an SGI, a PC, an Apple Mac, an Acorn Archimedes, and a BBC micro (actually it's a 4-way KVM and the SGI and Mac are not usually connected to it), without a PS/2 keyboard in sight. Sadly they don't make that model any more :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 29 19:22:42 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:22:42 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> References: <20081029.155613.26951.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>, <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> Message-ID: <49089BE2.14043.3EA32B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2008 at 23:23, ethan.dicks at usap.gov wrote: > I don't know anything about the HP9133D, but I did fiddle with > plenty of MFM and RLL drives on ISA controllers and non-PC > controllers (DEC RQDXn, Commodore D9060/D9090, Dialog DQ614, etc., > etc.) There was no hard and fast rule that X drive could always > be replaced by Y drive of a larger size, but there were many > specific cases where it worked - one I've done is replacing a > Tandon TM602S with a Seagate ST225 in a Commodore D9060. They > have the same number of heads (4), and although the ST225 is 20MB > and the TM602S is 5MB, what you end up with is a 75%-unused > ST225, and there's no conflict between the Write Precomp and the > RWC parameters. In general, it's useful to think of MFM drives as being large, fast floppies in that by and large, they consist of two parts--the drive- selection, head positioning and side-select electronics and the read/write electronics. The drive is pretty much blind to the data being placed on it, like a floppy. So picking a drive that meets or exceeds the original in all of the parameters generally works pretty well. Unlike ESDI, IDE and SCSI drives, there is no "identify" facility in an MFM drive. If you want to figure out the capacity the hard way, you can try seeking to successively higher cylinders and tracks until you hit an error (a binary search will speed the process up). There are some exceptions--one of which is the MFM drives used on the "baby" models of the DG MV series. Apparently (as nearly as I can determine), the controller firmware looks for a specially formatted track that contains the drive parameters--just plonking an off-the- shelf drive of the same model number just doesn't work. The other exception that comes to mind are drives that have a higher rotation speed than the customary 3600 RPM. Whether or not the HP drive in question falls in this latter category, I am unable to say. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 19:52:14 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KVM's (was - Re: Help with Sun video) In-Reply-To: <4908F5C1.7080305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <148360.19421.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Pete Turnbull wrote: > All I can say is that I've never had much luck with > Belkin KVMs on Suns > and SGIs, or even PCs in some cases, and tend to stick to > others that I > know are less picky. The best ones I found are cheap > Newlink ones. I > have one here working happily with a Sun, an SGI, a PC, an > Apple Mac, an > Acorn Archimedes, and a BBC micro (actually it's a > 4-way KVM and the SGI > and Mac are not usually connected to it), without a PS/2 > keyboard in > sight. Sadly they don't make that model any more :-( I haven't had that good of luck with the "electronic" KVM's either. They tend to attempt to do too much thinking and not enough doing what they're told. Many only work properly with PC's, and even then, I've seen some screw up when running at really high resolutions - they just blank out the video, even though the monitor and the computer can handle it just fine without the KVM in the way. Also, many really want there to be a keyboard connected, and often times I only really want to switch the video. I guess the device I need is really just a "V", in that case... Some also don't like the really old IBM 84 key AT keyboard I use. The old mechanical switch KVM's are great for these odd situations. Although some of the cheap ones aren't that well sheilded and introduce ringing in the video at high resolution. The best KVM I have found has been the Hewlett Packard J1484A. I found it in a pile of junk PC's at the scrapper. It has worked flawlessly with whatever I throw at it. It's an electronic design, but the people that made this one got it right. It's powered by... get this... a power cord! Wonder of wonders, it contains it's _own_ power supply! No external brick! It has a button for each channel, not just one to "cycle". When you press a button, it changes to that channel - wether there is anything there or not. The indicator flashes to let you know that it doesn't see anything, but it passes video and I/O through just the same. -Ian From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Oct 29 19:52:38 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:52:38 GMT Subject: Looking for a ST419 Message-ID: <20081029.175238.26157.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> -- ethan.dicks at usap.gov wrote: >On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:56:13PM +0000, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: >> Geez, the 419 was uncommon, even in it's own time. > >Indeed. I don't ever recall running across one. > >> There's some difference (which I have been unable to quantify) >> between different models of MFM drives (of equal or similar >> geometry) that allows some drives to work in some applications, >> but not others. >> >> If there's anyone out there intimately familiar with the >> ST-506/412 interface, now would be a good time to offer >> some suggestions as to why this is so. > >If you had to play with MFM and RLL drives back in the day, >there were *four* drive geometry parameters you had to match >up with what your controller/firmware was expecting: > >Cylinders >Heads >Write Precomp >Reduced Write Current > >RWC was important with the ST-506 standard, but, IIRC, it fell >away with the ST-412 standard, and the pin that the controller >used to tell the drive to reduce the write current was recycled >as another head-select line, allowing an ST-412-compatible drive >to have 9-16 heads. More modern drives kept track of which track >they were on and handled RWC internally, sometimes based on the >Write Precomp value, I think. A-HA! I think you nailed it! That explains why you could use an older drive that could be used with an XT controller, on an AT comntroller, but *NOT* vice-versa! I was totally unaware that the fourth head-select line on the bigger drives had been previously used for RWC. > >I don't know anything about the HP9133D, but I did fiddle with >plenty of MFM and RLL drives on ISA controllers and non-PC >controllers (DEC RQDXn, Commodore D9060/D9090, Dialog DQ614, etc., >etc.) There was no hard and fast rule that X drive could always >be replaced by Y drive of a larger size, but there were many >specific cases where it worked - one I've done is replacing a >Tandon TM602S with a Seagate ST225 in a Commodore D9060. They >have the same number of heads (4), and although the ST225 is 20MB >and the TM602S is 5MB, what you end up with is a 75%-unused >ST225, and there's no conflict between the Write Precomp and the >RWC parameters. OKay, looks like the 9133 wants a drive that supports RWC (or, at least, does not have a fourth head select bit!). Looks like the write precomp has to match also. Wow, I must have led a sheltered life: This is the first instance I've seen where the RWC and precomp actually have a discernable effect. I'll have to consult my drive guide to confirm this . . . . Thanks Ethan! _____________________________________________________________ Find the apartment of your dreams by clicking here now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3miigqNmkWe4aQzJukOnbX02vkQ270cpkTl3qRWM2Xn56kqi/?count=1234567890 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 29 20:17:16 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:17:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> References: <20081029.155613.26951.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com> <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> Message-ID: <49090B1C.1020007@brouhaha.com> ethan.dicks at usap.gov wrote: > RWC was important with the ST-506 standard, but, IIRC, it fell > away with the ST-412 standard, and the pin that the controller > used to tell the drive to reduce the write current was recycled > as another head-select line, allowing an ST-412-compatible drive > to have 9-16 heads. More modern drives kept track of which track > they were on and handled RWC internally, sometimes based on the > Write Precomp value, I think. > Yes, ST-412 interface drives did RWC internally, if they needed it, but they decided based on maintaining their own cylinder counter. It was unrelated to any write precomp cylinder threshold in the controller settings, since the drive had no practical way to know what the precomp setting was. Eric From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed Oct 29 20:56:06 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:56:06 -0400 Subject: QUME DT/8 - current progress Message-ID: <49091436.20602@drexel.edu> Ok, thanks to many people calling my foul on terms of how the drive works, I have figured out what I need to get it up and running for the most part. I wired up a power connector for the spindle motor and verified (first with a meter, then by applying power) that indeed the spindle motor works properly. Now: I could use verification that the diagram for wiring the 50 pin 8" shugart connector to the 36 pin 5.25" shugart connector which is in the cp/m faq (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/CPM-faq/) is correct. Secondly, I cannot source one of those ?locking? Shugart DC power plugs to fit into the connector, the connector which looks like (paste in notepad): _________ | | | 0 0 0 | |__ ____| __| |____ | | | 0 0 0 | |_________| I'm wondering if I should just solder wires to the pcb to supply gnd, 5v and 24v, or does someone know where I can get one of those plugs which mates with that connector, or perhaps has one spare? Thirdly, what should I set the jumpers and fuse-block to, to allow this to work properly with a catweasel or anadisk? Thanks for all the help so far! -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed Oct 29 21:22:50 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:22:50 -0400 Subject: QUME DT/8 - current progress - one more thing In-Reply-To: <49091436.20602@drexel.edu> References: <49091436.20602@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <49091A7A.2030409@drexel.edu> Whoops, one more thing: the drive is missing its disk-eject spring. In pictures of the Qume DT-8 which I've seen, both by Michael Holley (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Floppy_Disk_Drives_8_5_3.jpg and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Floppy_Disk_Drive_8_inch.jpg) the eject spring is a copper colored spring which at its most unstretched form seems to pull the disk eject metal piece to its most forward position. Is there a particular type/model/thickness/tension-rating/etc of spring I should look for as a replacement part? Currently I'm considering tying a snapped-in-half rubber band there for the time being, but that will eventually degrade. Thanks again! -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 21:33:08 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:33:08 -0700 Subject: QUME DT/8 - current progress In-Reply-To: <49091436.20602@drexel.edu> References: <49091436.20602@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90810291933ueb40ac3h7fb7a47c5c835af5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > Secondly, I cannot source one of those ?locking? Shugart DC power plugs to > fit into the connector, the connector which looks like (paste in notepad): > _________ > | | > | 0 0 0 | > |__ ____| > __| |____ > | | > | 0 0 0 | > |_________| > http://www.mouser.com/ Housing: 1-480270-0 Contact: 60619-1 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 29 21:47:11 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:47:11 -0700 Subject: QUME DT/8 - current progress In-Reply-To: <49091436.20602@drexel.edu> References: <49091436.20602@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4908BDBF.19728.46E7C97@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2008 at 21:56, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > Ok, thanks to many people calling my foul on terms of how the drive > works, I have figured out what I need to get it up and running for the > most part. > I wired up a power connector for the spindle motor and verified (first > with a meter, then by applying power) that indeed the spindle motor > works properly. > Now: I could use verification that the diagram for wiring the 50 pin 8" > shugart connector to the 36 pin 5.25" shugart connector which is in the > cp/m faq (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/CPM-faq/) is correct. > Secondly, I cannot source one of those ?locking? Shugart DC power plugs > to fit into the connector, the connector which looks like (paste in > notepad): It's a currently-available (and cheap) Amp 1-480270-0 Mate-n-lock connector--available from DigiKey, Allied, Mouser, etc. Be sure to order the appropriate pins (60619-1) when you get the shell. > Thirdly, what should I set the jumpers and fuse-block to, to allow this > to work properly with a catweasel or anadisk? Fuse block? 36 pin? Do you mean jumper block and 34 pin? At any rate, there's a very cute adapter that uses a PIC to keep track of the head position to assert the TG43/RWC signal and also do the cable adaptation: http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html Otherwise, try here: http://users.bart.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/8-525.html Be sure you use the appropriate terminator (150 ohm) pack if this is the only drive on the cable. Cheers, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 21:51:36 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:51:36 -0400 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <4908F0CF.9010306@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca> <4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> <49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> <4908F0CF.9010306@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0810291951lfccabf5he71208d2f029cdb2@mail.gmail.com> I've got one of those on my desk; see http://www.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem/IMG_1904.jpg I counted 32 planes (on the stack +1 separate), each with 64x64 (=4096) cores. Not visible on the picture between the black plates is the massive bunch of cables coming out. A 500GiB 3.5in drive for size comparison next to it. Note while I have those cores, I can't morally claim to own them. They were in a display case here in the ECE dept. at McGill (der Mouse might know more about it, he's been in this building longer than I have, albeit 3 floors down). The display case showed a bit of the evolution of storage... more useful when undergrads still came in here. The display case got dismantled at some point and the contents moved into a storage room - recently the storage room got cleared out to become part of a new lab and the contents were mostly to be junked - so I snagged the cores. Joe. --- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed Oct 29 22:32:21 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:32:21 -0400 Subject: QUME DT/8 - current progress Message-ID: <49092AC5.1020608@drexel.edu> **On /Wed Oct 29 20:33:08 CST 2008/ Glen Slick wrote: //> >On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu > wrote: >>/ Secondly, I cannot source one of those ?locking? Shugart DC power plugs to />>/ fit into the connector, the connector which looks like (paste in notepad): />>/ _________ />>/ | | />>/ | 0 0 0 | />>/ |__ ____| />>/ __| |____ />>/ | | />>/ | 0 0 0 | />>/ |_________| />>/ /> >http://www.mouser.com/ > >Housing: 1-480270-0 >Contact: 60619-1 Thanks! I was looking in the completely wrong place for this part, and I had NO idea what it was called. "Mate-N-Lok" -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Oct 29 22:26:31 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:26:31 -0700 Subject: HP9133D disk replacement. In-Reply-To: <4908D1DC.1080505@bluewin.ch> References: <4908D1DC.1080505@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <49092967.2020809@garlic.com> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel ????????: > Looking back to old classiccmp articles indicate that it is not easy to > replace the ST419 by other MFM drives of different geometries. > Has this changed ? i.e can somebody report a success in replacing the > internal drive of an HP9133 ? > I installed a 10Mb disk in a 9133A. I had to format it in a 9133XV box first. Works fine. I managed to get two 5Mb disks into another 9133A. It works fine. I don't remember how I did it. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 30 00:39:27 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca><4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> <49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> <4908F0CF.9010306@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4909488E.8C920ADF@cs.ubc.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 29/10/2008 19:52, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > I agree with Brent's analysis. I too counted 21 planes, which seems a > > bit odd, as typically each plane represented one bit in a word > > structure, which would indicate a 21-bit word...not something that > > matches up with commonly-used word sizes in 50's/60's era computers (12, > > 16, 18, 20, 24, 32, 36, 48, 60 or 64 bits). > > It looks pretty intact, and I don't think anything's been stripped. > However, while I count 21 layers (image 2 and image 4) in the > construction, the top layer has no cores (plain to see in images 3 and > 4), so there are 20 planes by my reckoning. > > And counting rows and columns of cores (not just the wires), I see 40 x > 50 (you can easily count them in image 4), which matches the X and Y > numbering on the connectors. So I still reckon that stack is 2000 words > x 20 bits. Agreed, looks like the upper 21st 'plane' is just a header for the address wires. I had arrived at y=48 from looking at the blurry numbers on the Y connector on photo 5, but a recount indicates 50. That left me wondering where the 4 connections for the sense and inhibit wires are: looking again at the other photos, it appears there are two extra pins on *each* axis (42 & 52) of each plane, so 4 extra pins per plane. (In photo 4, looking down the planes starting at the left end of the row of yellow wires one can see the cut-off wires soldered to the pins of what should be either the sense or inhibit lines.) From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Wed Oct 29 23:57:11 2008 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 05:57:11 +0100 Subject: DEC AlphaServer 8400 for Trade Message-ID: I will trade off my AlphaServer 8400 for a VAX-11/750. This is the AlphaServer 8400 current configuration: 8 CPUs = 4*Dual-CPU 300 MHz E2056-DA 4GB Memory = 2*2GB MS7CC-FA 2 KFTIA I/O Modules (4*SCSI / 2*Network) E2054-AA 1 Bus-Terminator E2034-AA 3 48V DC Power Supplies 303379602 3 BA356 StorageWorks SCSI-Boxes 12 DEC SCSI-Drives (RZs) 1 AlphaServer 8400 PCI Box There are some AlphaServer 8400 spares that will go together with the computer: 1 48V DC Power Supply 303379602 2 CPUs = 1*Dual-CPU 300 MHz E2056-DA 2GB Memory = 1*2GB MS7CC-FA 1 Bus-Terminator E2034-AA 1 Box BA655-AA The AlphaServer 8400 is in working condition, but without software and licenses. The only known deficiency is that the console CDROM drive (RRD45) does not open properly, but is nevertheless usable. The condition of the spares is unknown. The AlphaServer 8400 system is located in Northern Germany. What do I expect in return: - A VAX-11/750 in working order - 1MB VAX-11/750 memory - A working VAX-11/750 disk subsystem (controller & drive, any model) - A DEUNA or DELUA UNIBUS ethernet adapter All items are negotiable. The VAX-11/750 will become part of my private collection of VAX computers and will be used to run VMS version 2, 3 & 4, ULTRIX-32 and some old UNIX versions. Regards, Ulli (The VAXorcist) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Oct 30 00:46:44 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 06:46:44 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 Message-ID: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, I was able to acquire 4 Zilog S8000 boards lately. - S8000 Central Processing Unit - S8000 Winchester Disk Controller - S8000 Cartridge Tape Controller - S8000 ECC Controller I'm trying to get my hands on the Case and the 1MB memory card, but I was wondering if someone has still pieces of the S8000 at hand? What about tape images of ZEUS? I mean - when I'm getting the minimum required hardware sooner or later - without an installation tape I'm a bit lost - right? ;) I've tried to put all the information I was able to found about the S8000 together at http://pofo.de/S8000/ I've scanned the boards I got and put all the EPROM images online. COPYRIGHT, ZILOG, INC. 1980 S8000 Monitor 1.2 - Press START to Load System ;) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 00:48:32 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:48:32 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <4908D09B.1020009@bluewin.ch> References: <4908D09B.1020009@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > I am in the market for a known working ST419 MFM disk > > System software forces me to the 306 Cyl / 6 Heads format (@ 32 256-byte > sectors ) > > Location : Switzerland . This is a 85 milisecond MFM drive. I am sure that will figure into the replacement. A direct replacement might be the Tandon TM 503 or the IMI 5018, Also the OTARI C 519, Disktron D-519, NPL 4191 are similar 6 platter drives. The CMI CM 5619 is similar but slower at 105 ms. The Hitachi DK 301-2 is a 3 1/2 inch version of the same, (6 HD, 306 cyl, 85 ms.) Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 30 03:12:03 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 08:12:03 +0000 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <4909488E.8C920ADF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4907E279.2040802@jetnet.ab.ca><4907F344.8010802@jwsss.com> <49082110.70708@dunnington.plus.com> <4908BF95.9791FD3B@cs.ubc.ca> <4908F0CF.9010306@dunnington.plus.com> <4909488E.8C920ADF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49096C53.80404@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/10/2008 05:39, Brent Hilpert wrote: > That left me wondering where the 4 connections for the sense and inhibit > wires are: looking again at the other photos, it appears there are two extra > pins on *each* axis (42 & 52) of each plane, so 4 extra pins per plane. Yes, I saw that too, but forgot to post it. I wonder why there's not a connector block for all those. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 29 13:10:36 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: References: <200810280743.DAA02597@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <200810291811.OAA03584@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I did note that the options offered all use vertical refresh rates > well north of 60Khz (fast for an LCD), [...] 60KHz is indeed very fast for a vertical sync frequency. ITYPM 60Hz. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 16:48:17 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: <200810291811.OAA03584@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200810280743.DAA02597@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200810291811.OAA03584@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote: >> I did note that the options offered all use vertical refresh rates >> well north of 60Khz (fast for an LCD), [...] > > 60KHz is indeed very fast for a vertical sync frequency. ITYPM 60Hz. Heh. Yes, that would be one hell of a fast refresh wouldn't it? -- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 30 04:02:27 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:02:27 +0000 Subject: Help with Sun video In-Reply-To: References: <200810280743.DAA02597@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200810291811.OAA03584@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <49097823.7010804@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/10/2008 21:48, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote: > >>> I did note that the options offered all use vertical refresh rates >>> well north of 60Khz (fast for an LCD), [...] >> >> 60KHz is indeed very fast for a vertical sync frequency. ITYPM 60Hz. > > Heh. Yes, that would be one hell of a fast refresh wouldn't it? But somebody, somewhere, would still complain about the flicker. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 07:44:42 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:44:42 -0500 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <49089BE2.14043.3EA32B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20081029.155613.26951.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>, <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> <49089BE2.14043.3EA32B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4909AC3A.20000@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Oct 2008 at 23:23, ethan.dicks at usap.gov wrote: > There are some exceptions--one of which is the MFM drives used on the > "baby" models of the DG MV series. Apparently (as nearly as I can > determine), the controller firmware looks for a specially formatted > track that contains the drive parameters So they were LLF'd at the DG plant and the LLF routine never escaped into the wild? I suppose there are probably a few others around like that, too. Plus lots of systems using Adaptec ST-SCSI bridges where the first track is reserved for drive geometry storage (although those can at least be LLFd out in the field by prodding the bridge board directly) >--just plonking an off-the- > shelf drive of the same model number just doesn't work. The other > exception that comes to mind are drives that have a higher rotation > speed than the customary 3600 RPM. I suspect step rate may come into play with a lot of high-end systems, too. Lesser machines probably expected much less of the disk technology. cheers Jules From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Oct 30 08:07:08 2008 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 06:07:08 -0700 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <4908623E.5020405@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <1EED75A32D8249EBB29B306557714E99@NFORCE4> Tom Uban Wrote: >Please be sure to give us the heads up when it is listed. Here ya'll go: eBay Item Number 330282554507 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item =330282554507 I'm sure it'll be out of my price range soon. :) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Oct 30 08:26:24 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 08:26:24 -0500 Subject: Core Beads (was Re: 40k Ferrite Memory Core) In-Reply-To: <1EED75A32D8249EBB29B306557714E99@NFORCE4> References: <1EED75A32D8249EBB29B306557714E99@NFORCE4> Message-ID: <4909B600.6000606@ubanproductions.com> For the person who was looking for core memory beads, I noticed a few boxes of them while searching eBay for core memory stuff... No affiliation, etc. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 08:57:16 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 06:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT - Sources of magneto-optical disks? Message-ID: <12025.27562.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I posted this over on the rescue list, but I figured it's probably close enough for here too, since I use these for classic machines. I'm looking for magneto-optical disk cartridges. Primarily the 3 1/2" versions, I use the 128mb disks for shuffleing data around between old machines, but I actually have a mix of drives - 128mb mostly, but also a 230mb and a 640mb drive. I also checked last might, and found the 600mb 5 1/4" drive I had forgotten about. Just no media for it. I've been checking on eBay, and they turn up from time to time, and I actually just bought a few 128mb disks there. But mostly, the MO disks available tend to be the expensive, higher capacity disks that I can't use. These old, small ones rarely get listed, and I almost never see used ones. Or, when they do get listed, the shipping is wildly inflated. For example, I found an auction for 20 used 128mb disks. Flat rate $20 shipping. How it can possibly cost $20 to ship a small box of disks is beyond me. Likewise the BIN of $2 for five disks, with flat rate $12 shipping. So, anyone have a good source of these critters? I remember buying a few boxes many years ago (back when the Zip drive was the great new thing) from an online media store, and paying about five bucks apiece for brand new 128mb cartridges. Surely the prices should have come down, but the the cheapest I can find them is $7 each. I'd really like to just buy some used cartridges, but I guess the used media market isn't what it was, I don't really even see used tapes much anymore. So, anyone know of a source of 128mb, 230mb, 540mb or 640mb 3 1/2" disks, or the 600mb 5 1/4" disks? -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 09:51:44 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:51:44 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT - Sources of magneto-optical disks? In-Reply-To: <12025.27562.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <12025.27562.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > So, anyone know of a source of 128mb, 230mb, 540mb or 640mb 3 1/2" disks, or the 600mb 5 1/4" disks? Be careful when buying MO disks. They tend to be *really* picky about what drives they want to work with. Most brands do not work reliably in other brands' drives, even if all the specs and formats say they should. I think WORMs had less of a problem, but you probably do not want WORMs. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 30 11:19:11 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:19:11 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT - Sources of magneto-optical disks? In-Reply-To: References: <12025.27562.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <49097C0F.20185.755E011@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2008 at 9:51, William Donzelli wrote: > Be careful when buying MO disks. They tend to be *really* picky about > what drives they want to work with. Most brands do not work reliably > in other brands' drives, even if all the specs and formats say they > should. The same goes for drives, particularly in the gigabyte capacities. They tend to be fairly fragile (the large Pinnacle drives had a tendency to fail after a few months in use). All in all, that was one technology that I was glad to see die. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 30 11:16:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:16:28 -0700 Subject: Core Beads (was Re: 40k Ferrite Memory Core) In-Reply-To: <4909B600.6000606@ubanproductions.com> References: <1EED75A32D8249EBB29B306557714E99@NFORCE4>, <4909B600.6000606@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <49097B6C.19217.75364B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2008 at 8:26, Tom Uban wrote: > For the person who was looking for core memory beads, I > noticed a few boxes of them while searching eBay for core > memory stuff... 'Twas I. Not the teeny core memory beads, but larger hard ferrite toroids usable for magnetic core logic use; i.e. the ability to put several windings on a core. FWIW, In my desk drawer, along with some other arcane stuff,I've got a frame from what I believe was an old Philco system. Much larger and much much less dense than the "40K" module shown. Still, the cores are way too small for what I'd need. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 30 11:37:21 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:37:21 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT - Sources of magneto-optical disks? References: <12025.27562.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <49097C0F.20185.755E011@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <61A0E64F86D944D2AA2F545E9749CCF7@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:19 PM Subject: Re: Semi-OT - Sources of magneto-optical disks? > On 30 Oct 2008 at 9:51, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Be careful when buying MO disks. They tend to be *really* picky about >> what drives they want to work with. Most brands do not work reliably >> in other brands' drives, even if all the specs and formats say they >> should. > > The same goes for drives, particularly in the gigabyte capacities. > They tend to be fairly fragile (the large Pinnacle drives had a > tendency to fail after a few months in use). All in all, that was > one technology that I was glad to see die. > > Cheers, > Chuck > It is hard to find cheap drives these days. I have a 1.3GB (650MB per side) 5.25" drive with a large amount of media but could use another drive (incase my current drive bites the dust). Ebay tends to have the drives but the prices are insane. I like storing old Mac programs on the MO disks because of the solid case that keeps them for getting scratched like a cdr or dvdr would. And they are supposed to last a long time. TZ From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Oct 30 13:16:39 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking manual for Farallon Ether10-T Starlet/16 hub ($$$) Message-ID: I'm seeking the manual for a Farallon Ether10-T Starlet/16 hub (circa 1994-1995). I'm willing to pay $50 for it. If you have one, please contact me directly (and immediately). Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 30 13:16:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:16:39 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <4909AC3A.20000@gmail.com> References: <20081029.155613.26951.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>, <49089BE2.14043.3EA32B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4909AC3A.20000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49099797.23812.7C16CC8@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2008 at 7:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > So they were LLF'd at the DG plant and the LLF routine never escaped into the > wild? What I understand to have been the case is that there were some "authorized service agents" who had the capability to provide the LLF- ed drives. The ugly part was that if a customer obtained a new off- the-shelf model of the needed drive, the system wouldn't see it. So not only did you need a specific drive, but you needed the correct format on it. Reminds me of the old Drivetec floppies--formatted with an embedded servo, so you didn't dare pick up used ones--they could be erased or have errors that would render them useless. I've still got some of the old Drivetec/Kodak drives and some media, but I'm not aware of anyone offering the media in the last 15 years or so (my last samples came from the Dysan Sunnyvale plant liquidation). What do Kaypro Robie collectors use for blank media? Cheers, Chuck From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Oct 30 14:46:45 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:46:45 GMT Subject: Drivetec Floppy Drives Message-ID: <20081030.124645.3637.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> -- "Chuck Guzis" wrote: On 30 Oct 2008 at 7:44, Jules Richardson wrote: >Reminds me of the old Drivetec floppies--formatted with an embedded >servo, so you didn't dare pick up used ones--they could be erased or >have errors that would render them useless. I've still got some of >the old Drivetec/Kodak drives and some media, but I'm not aware of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Whoa, hold the phone here. Okay, I'm trying to solve a twenty-year- old mystery. So, you say the media for these drives were made by Kodak? Did they, per chance, have *triangular* notches in place of the traditional rectangular ones? I'm asking, because in 1985 or '86 I was at an electronics scrap yard in L.A., and saw a *very* large heap of these kinda strange looking floppy drives. I don't remember too much about them, but I just remember they looked *weird*. The media was made by Kodak (something I had never seen before), and the notch on the edge of the floppy disk was *triangular*. I figured it was some special media for bio-medical equipment, or for some bizarre photographic process, or something. Anyways, I never saw drives (or floppies) like that ever again, and always wondered about it. They looked brand-new, and the whole incident sticks out in my mind because I remember the owner was mad as hell-- apparently he spent a small fortune on these things, but nobody wanted them because they weren't 'standard'. _____________________________________________________________ Live the good life! Click now for great retirement planning assistance! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3mK7BUhrxexcthLC9q3BBc6GoJ8wIqwL4BeYjrWIf9idmH2u/?count=1234567890 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 30 15:19:14 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:19:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <20081030154517.GC6976@n0jcf.net> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> <49089BE2.14043.3EA32B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4909AC3A.20000@gmail.com> <20081030154517.GC6976@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com> On Oct 30, 2008, at 11:45 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I'm still dreaming about a way to emulate these drives with modern > hardware and I know that has been hashed over a lot over the years... > but I have no interest directly mapping an old drive to a new one. > I'd be happy with emulating the old drive in a file (image) on a new > drive or say, compact flash or other non-rotating media. I sure would love that as well. Not easy to do, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 30 13:53:31 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:53:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9133D disk replacement. In-Reply-To: <20081029.151054.23960.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Oct 29, 8 10:10:54 pm Message-ID: > > Yah, I done that. The key is to find an MFM drive that has the > same or greater Cylnder/Head geometry: It has to have at least > the same number of cylnders, and at least the same number of > heads. Right. Some machines seem to check if the drive actually _matches_ (as opposed to exceeds) the required geometry. They'll attempt to select a non-existant head and check an error is generated, and so on. > Keep in mind, though, that geometry alone does *NOT* guarantee > that this will work!! The 9133 seems to be allergic to some One problem is that HP made a number of devices called a '9133' that had little internal similarity. They were all hard/floppy disk units, they all had HPIB interfaces, but that's about it. The earlier ones (9133V, XV, etc) had separate hard and floppy disk controller boards inside, each with their own HPIB address and used the Amigo command set. The later ones (9133H, etc) had one controller with one HPIB address and used the SS/80 command set iIRC. So saying that something works/doesn't work for a 9133 is somewhat meaningless. It may work for some versions and not others. > MFM drives-- I could get most Seagate drives to work, for example, > but not NEC's. My fave at the time was the Quantum Q540. I > 'wasted' over half the drive, but I had alot of them at the time! > > When you format such a drive, you will not have a capacity > greater than the original.[1] > > > [1] Not quite true for the older 9133 V/X/XV drives. If you have > a 'V' for example, you can replace it with a bigger drive, adjust > the jumpers inside, and format for 10 or 15MB. The 9133H has a set of 3 jumpers on the controller board labelled 'Ident Sea'. These seem to set the controller for different geometries, but I have no idea what all 16 possiilites actually are. Anyone? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 30 13:56:28 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:56:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <20081029.155613.26951.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Oct 29, 8 10:56:13 pm Message-ID: > > Geez, the 419 was uncommon, even in it's own time. And then, I beleive it was the largest of a set of three drives, the others being the 406 and the 412 (the last, of course, is very well known). It appears these were 2,4,6 head units (i.e. 1,2,3 platters) and were otherwise much the same. And that the last 2 digits of the model number give the (unformatted?) capactity. I believe the standard drive in an HP9133XV was an ST419 (and in a 9133V, it was an ST406). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 30 14:16:00 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:16:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> from "ethan.dicks@usap.gov" at Oct 29, 8 11:23:09 pm Message-ID: > RWC was important with the ST-506 standard, but, IIRC, it fell > away with the ST-412 standard, and the pin that the controller > used to tell the drive to reduce the write current was recycled > as another head-select line, allowing an ST-412-compatible drive > to have 9-16 heads. More modern drives kept track of which track > they were on and handled RWC internally, sometimes based on the > Write Precomp value, I think. I doubt that. Precompenation is slightly altering the timing of the write pulses, and there's no easy way for the drive to detect that. More likely the drive simply knew what cylinder the heads were on (e.g. by keeping a count of step pulses inside the microcontroller) and simply reduced the write current on cylinders beyond a certain value. I think some drives did the precompensation themselves too, thus the controller didn't have to bother with either the RWC or the Precompensation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 30 14:18:05 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:18:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <4908F6C5.6050905@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at Oct 29, 8 05:50:29 pm Message-ID: > > . . . or whether Schroedinger's cat is dead or alive > > > > > If he would feed his cat ... If 'he' == 'ard' then I can assure you I do feed my cat. And I know he's very much alive, AFAIK dead cats do not sit and purr next to me, and don't deposit dead rodents on the floor... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 30 15:48:26 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Drivetec Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20081030.124645.3637.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> References: <20081030.124645.3637.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <20081030134622.E32462@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > Whoa, hold the phone here. Okay, I'm trying to solve a twenty-year- > old mystery. So, you say the media for these drives were made > by Kodak? Did they, per chance, have *triangular* notches in place > of the traditional rectangular ones? > > I'm asking, because in 1985 or '86 I was at an electronics scrap > yard in L.A., and saw a *very* large heap of these kinda strange > looking floppy drives. I don't remember too much about them, but > I just remember they looked *weird*. The media was made by Kodak > (something I had never seen before), and the notch on the edge of > the floppy disk was *triangular*. I figured it was some special > media for bio-medical equipment, or for some bizarre photographic > process, or something. > Anyways, I never saw drives (or floppies) like that ever again, > and always wondered about it. They looked brand-new, and the > whole incident sticks out in my mind because I remember the > owner was mad as hell-- apparently he spent a small fortune > on these things, but nobody wanted them because they weren't > 'standard'. The Amlyn drives also had extra/strange notches. They used 5 600 Oersted 5.25" ("1.2M") diskettes in a plastic caddy, and could switch diskettes under program control. The drive was a little weird. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 30 15:48:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:48:26 -0700 Subject: Drivetec Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20081030.124645.3637.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> References: <20081030.124645.3637.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <4909BB2A.12170.84C61BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2008 at 19:46, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > Whoa, hold the phone here. Okay, I'm trying to solve a twenty-year- > old mystery. So, you say the media for these drives were made > by Kodak? Did they, per chance, have *triangular* notches in place > of the traditional rectangular ones? The media I have is all Dysan with the usual rectangular notching. > I'm asking, because in 1985 or '86 I was at an electronics scrap > yard in L.A., and saw a *very* large heap of these kinda strange > looking floppy drives. I don't remember too much about them, but > I just remember they looked *weird*. The media was made by Kodak > (something I had never seen before), and the notch on the edge of > the floppy disk was *triangular*. I figured it was some special > media for bio-medical equipment, or for some bizarre photographic > process, or something. I can't say. What I recall of the Drivetec saga is that they went bankrupt around 1985 or so and were bought by Kodak. I have a 6.6 MB Kodak 1987 drive as well as a 2.4(?) Drivetec 1984 unit. They appear to be almost identical, except that the Kodak drive is about 1/2" shorter and doesn't have the additional 8-bin additional edge connector on the PCB. Same bezel, however. The Drivetec units could handle standard 360K media (with a benefit of spinning it at 600 RPM). The high-density proprietary media used a dual-stepper (coarse and fine positioning) and preformatted media with an embedded servo recorded at 192 tpi (at least for the 2.4 models; I don't know what the 6.6 uses). For a floppy drive, it was pretty cool, but it was that expensive pre-formatted media that proved to be the stumbling block, I think. Drivetec also offered their own controller that was pretty conventional, except for the higher data rate. Kodak did make a foray into commodity floppies, but were probably done in by price competition and an insane warranty that said something to the effect of "if your floppy ever fails, we'll not only replace it but we'll recover the data." Too bad, because they *were* pretty good floppies. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 30 16:50:28 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:50:28 -0600 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490A2C24.8010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >>> . . . or whether Schroedinger's cat is dead or alive >>> >>> >>> >> If he would feed his cat ... >> > > If 'he' == 'ard' then I can assure you I do feed my cat. And I know he's > very much alive, AFAIK dead cats do not sit and purr next to me, and > don't deposit dead rodents on the floor... > > I ment the OTHER cat ... > -tony > > PS... you are expected to eat them , why else would the cat bring them to you ... ;) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Oct 30 17:08:12 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:08:12 -0700 Subject: Osborne and unusual TI Terminal in Weirdstuff Bid Sale... Message-ID: <200810301508.13579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I dropped by Weirdstuff today and found a clean Osborne and a dusty (but unusual) TI Terminal in their Bid Sale. You can see pictures of them via: ftp://bickleywest.com/ws/ or ftp bickleywest.com User: anonymous Password: your email address cd ws Here's the info on the WS bid sale: http://www.weirdstuff.com/sunnyvale/html/bid_sale.htm Note that you can FAX you bids to WS. The webpage doesn't say it - but they will ship items won in the bid sale. I have no monetary interest in the auction or sale of these items. I am a "regular" bidder at WS - but will not be bidding on either of these items (otherwise I wouldn't be posting them to the list, would I ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 17:44:36 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:44:36 -0500 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> <49089BE2.14043.3EA32B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4909AC3A.20000@gmail.com> <20081030154517.GC6976@n0jcf.net> <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 30, 2008, at 11:45 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> I'm still dreaming about a way to emulate these drives with modern >> hardware and I know that has been hashed over a lot over the years... >> but I have no interest directly mapping an old drive to a new one. >> I'd be happy with emulating the old drive in a file (image) on a new >> drive or say, compact flash or other non-rotating media. > > I sure would love that as well. Not easy to do, though. I think the end of the last discussion on this resulted in the conclusion that it could be done, but required frequencies high enough to rule out just slapping some TTL together on a bit of prototype board... To be honest I'd just be happy with something that could snapshot a drive for now, without necessarily having to understand the contents or give write access - far as I'm concerned, the priority is to get the data off* the ageing media; a drop-in replacement for the physical hardware is a secondary consideration (I do like to keep my systems running, but it's no good if a bells-and-whistles system comes along ten years too late) * I'd even sell my soul and consider a USB solution for that ;) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 30 17:54:59 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:54:59 -0600 Subject: Osborne and unusual TI Terminal in Weirdstuff Bid Sale... In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:08:12 -0700. <200810301508.13579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200810301508.13579.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > I dropped by Weirdstuff today and found a clean Osborne and a dusty > (but unusual) TI Terminal in their Bid Sale. You can see pictures of > them via: ftp://bickleywest.com/ws/ That is an interesting terminal; it looks similar to this Informer terminal tha I picked up recently: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Oct 30 19:00:01 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:00:01 -0200 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query References: <490A2C24.8010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > PS... you are expected to eat them , why else would the cat bring them > to you ... ;) My cat brings cockroaches to my feet. Am I expected to eat them? :oO Nooo, I'll change my pet. Maybe an Aibo!? Alexandre - Brazil, you know. The land of confusion From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 30 19:52:10 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:52:10 -0700 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: , <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <4909F44A.13461.92B8564@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2008 at 22:00, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > PS... you are expected to eat them , why else would the cat bring them > > to you ... ;) > > My cat brings cockroaches to my feet. Am I expected to eat them? :oO It's just courtesy on the cat's part. When I had a cat, she used to bring dead marsh shrews and rough-skinned newts to me. Nothing eats those (outside of bacteria), not even cats. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 30 20:26:02 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:26:02 -0600 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <490A2C24.8010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <490A5EAA.7020705@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> PS... you are expected to eat them , why else would the cat bring >> them to you ... ;) > > My cat brings cockroaches to my feet. Am I expected to eat them? :oO No, you kill them for the cat ... > > Nooo, I'll change my pet. Maybe an Aibo!? > > Alexandre - Brazil, you know. The land of confusion > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 30 23:35:27 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:35:27 -0400 Subject: FrameMaker for SunOS Message-ID: I have ten (yes ten) boxes of FrameMaker v5 for SunOS. Includes manuals, CDROM, I think even license keys. I only opened one box, but I assume they're all the same. If anyone wants all of them, they are free for the cost of shipping, probably $40 or so. Let me know soon or they hit the trash. I'm not really interested in breaking them up. Contact me off-list if interested. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 01:05:25 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 02:05:25 -0400 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <4909F44A.13461.92B8564@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <4909F44A.13461.92B8564@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <490AA025.5000108@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> PS... you are expected to eat them , why else would the cat bring them >>> to you ... ;) >> My cat brings cockroaches to my feet. Am I expected to eat them? :oO > > It's just courtesy on the cat's part. When I had a cat, she used to > bring dead marsh shrews and rough-skinned newts to me. Nothing eats > those (outside of bacteria), not even cats. My cat somehow knew I was afraid of bugs, and so would kill them, hide the carcass, and then produce a particular meow to let me know it was okay to come out. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 31 01:31:21 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <490AA025.5000108@gmail.com> References: , <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <4909F44A.13461.92B8564@cclist.sydex.com> <490AA025.5000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > My cat somehow knew I was afraid of bugs, and so would kill them, hide > the carcass, and then produce a particular meow to let me know it was > okay to come out. What happened when you accidentally found where the cat was hiding the bodies? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 31 01:33:16 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <490A5EAA.7020705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <490A2C24.8010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <490A5EAA.7020705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> PS... you are expected to eat them , why else would the cat bring > >> them to you ... ;) > > > > My cat brings cockroaches to my feet. Am I expected to eat them? :oO > No, you kill them for the cat ... Ah, this must be why my cat brought live rodents into my bed before I finally put a screen on the bedroom window. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From emil at chookfest.net Thu Oct 30 03:51:20 2008 From: emil at chookfest.net (Emil Sarlija) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:51:20 +1100 Subject: DG Tapes: Nova Fortran IV In-Reply-To: <699694.90856.qm@web37105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <699694.90856.qm@web37105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1D6319AA-ECAC-4181-AF41-7F3B43F2443A@chookfest.net> Hi Julian, All my paper tapes are currently in storage along with my DG minis. I tried archiving some of them but was unable to get a decent reading with the equipment I had. Unfortunately, all I can offer at this point is encouragement. :-( Have fun! Emil On 28/10/2008, at 9:34 PM, Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi folks, > > It seems to me that self-hosting 16-bit compilers for old > minicomputers > are very thin on the ground. Yet from my viewpoint they are > interesting > and worth preserving, because they are a good demonstration of what > could be achieved using fairly limited hardware. > > Recently, I've been looking at the Data General RDOS Fortran IV > compiler > manual. It seems a very comprehensive version of the language, and > it's > actually Fortran '66 with some extensions, and looks very practical. > However, the standard RDOS images for SIMH don't come with the Fortran > compiler, only assembler. > > Here are the only two references I've found on the net for the Fortran > IV tapes: > > http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/paper-tapes.html > > http://www.ludd.luth.se/~ragge/nova/swdocs.html > > How easy would it be to get these tapes transcribed; dumped onto an > RDOS > disk and made available for SIMH? > > -cheers from julz @P > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 30 10:45:17 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:45:17 -0500 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <4909AC3A.20000@gmail.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov> <49089BE2.14043.3EA32B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4909AC3A.20000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081030154517.GC6976@n0jcf.net> Did these MFM interfaces and associated controllers ever expect to write individual sectors on a track? or was the entire track always written at once? I realize that the operating system had individual sector write-ability but was that accomplished by read-modify-write of that individual sector in a controller buffer and then the entire track rewritten? or did the controller sync to the beginning of the specific sector and write it in place? I'm still dreaming about a way to emulate these drives with modern hardware and I know that has been hashed over a lot over the years... but I have no interest directly mapping an old drive to a new one. I'd be happy with emulating the old drive in a file (image) on a new drive or say, compact flash or other non-rotating media. -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 30 15:21:41 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:21:41 -0800 Subject: Drivetec Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20081030.124645.3637.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> References: <20081030.124645.3637.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <490A1755.2040402@jwsss.com> Drivetec was located somewhere around Orange county because a lot of their engineering parts ended up at ACP in Santa Ana. I got a few of their prototype drives that functioned and a lot of castings and other stuff that is in a box somewhere in my pile. I don't recall that the diskettes had a notch. The ones I had did not have the usual notch, which was compatable with AT drives, etc. They could be inserted in regular drives and not be writable because there was material where the usual write protect was located for other floppy media. I thin there was a sort of small notch on the leading edge that was the write protect, but I don't recall a triangular shape to it. I had the 3.3mb media, which was eventually scaled up when Kodak tried to keep the technology going. I had a program to write the format and a special controller as well. I thought that later versions could reformat the media, but I could be wrong. There are or were others here with more experience with the Drivetec / Kodak drives. I think the main thing that I recall was that they used a screw jack type seek mechanism rather than the usual method of a servo motor, and one would be reminded of a small PerSci drive when you watched it go. My specimens are too well buried to look any time soon. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Whoa, hold the phone here. Okay, I'm trying to solve a twenty-year- > old mystery. So, you say the media for these drives were made > by Kodak? Did they, per chance, have *triangular* notches in place > of the traditional rectangular ones? > > I'm asking, because in 1985 or '86 I was at an electronics scrap > yard in L.A., and saw a *very* large heap of these kinda strange > looking floppy drives. I don't remember too much about them, but > I just remember they looked *weird*. The media was made by Kodak > (something I had never seen before), and the notch on the edge of > the floppy disk was *triangular*. I figured it was some special > media for bio-medical equipment, or for some bizarre photographic > process, or something. > > Anyways, I never saw drives (or floppies) like that ever again, > and always wondered about it. They looked brand-new, and the > whole incident sticks out in my mind because I remember the > owner was mad as hell-- apparently he spent a small fortune > on these things, but nobody wanted them because they weren't > 'standard'. > > > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 20:33:14 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KVM's (was - Re: Help with Sun video) In-Reply-To: <148360.19421.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <148360.19421.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> All I can say is that I've never had much luck with Belkin KVMs on Suns >> and SGIs, or even PCs in some cases, and tend to stick to others that I >> know are less picky. The best ones I found are cheap Newlink ones. I >> have one here working happily with a Sun, an SGI, a PC, an Apple Mac, >> an Acorn Archimedes, and a BBC micro (actually it's a 4-way KVM and the >> SGI and Mac are not usually connected to it), without a PS/2 keyboard >> in sight. Sadly they don't make that model any more :-( > > I haven't had that good of luck with the "electronic" KVM's either. They > tend to attempt to do too much thinking and not enough doing what > they're told. Many only work properly with PC's, and even then, I've > seen some screw up when running at really high resolutions - they just > blank out the video, even though the monitor and the computer can handle > it just fine without the KVM in the way. Also, many really want there to > be a keyboard connected, and often times I only really want to switch > the video. I guess the device I need is really just a "V", in that > case... Turns out that the Belkin <--> Sun interface box is simply not passing video. It was just as easy to run video directly from the box to the KVM input, so no big deal. The keyboard and mouse are operating fine and that was the main issue. I took the advice given to me in this chain of notes and build an adapter that goes inline between my keyboard and the KVM. Two tails come out of it with PS2 mini-DIN plugs on the ends. I can connect this to the keyboard input of any channel where I simply want to switch video. The Amiga works a treat now! Thanks to everyone for the good ideas! Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 31 02:48:21 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:48:21 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <20081030154517.GC6976@n0jcf.net> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <4909AC3A.20000@gmail.com>, <20081030154517.GC6976@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <490A55D5.15278.AA88883@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2008 at 10:45, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I realize that the operating system had individual sector write-ability > but was that accomplished by read-modify-write of that individual sector > in a controller buffer and then the entire track rewritten? or did the > controller sync to the beginning of the specific sector and write it > in place? Just that way--like a floppy--there are address marks and sector headers that mark the beginning of each sector. At least that's the way most controllers work. Of course, since the data stream from an ST412 interface is just a raw bunch of pulses, one could record anything on a track that one wanted, within the electrical limits of the drive. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 31 03:06:31 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:06:31 -0700 Subject: Drivetec Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <490A1755.2040402@jwsss.com> References: <20081030.124645.3637.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com>, <490A1755.2040402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <490A5A17.930.AB92C1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2008 at 12:21, jim s wrote: > I think the main thing that I recall was that they used a screw jack > type seek mechanism rather than the usual method of a servo motor, and > one would be reminded of a small PerSci drive when you watched it go. > My specimens are too well buried to look any time soon. No servos, but two stepper motors. The first drives the main head leadscrew through a slip coupling and provides "coarse" positioning. The second stepper drives a fine-pitch leadscrew that works one end of a fulcrum, the other end of which is attached to the slip coupling on the leadscrew and provides "fine" positioning. Very clever--it's fun to watch the drive working. I talked to Kodak around 1988 and they swore that media had to be factory-formatted (although you could format 360K media normally). I've got the OEM manual for the 3.3MB drive and it's completely silent about user formatting. I'd love some details (or even some software) on formatting of the 3.3/6.6 media if anyone has any. It might be fun getting the old things going again. Cheers, Chuck > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Whoa, hold the phone here. Okay, I'm trying to solve a twenty-year- > > old mystery. So, you say the media for these drives were made > > by Kodak? Did they, per chance, have *triangular* notches in place > > of the traditional rectangular ones? > > > > I'm asking, because in 1985 or '86 I was at an electronics scrap > > yard in L.A., and saw a *very* large heap of these kinda strange > > looking floppy drives. I don't remember too much about them, but > > I just remember they looked *weird*. The media was made by Kodak > > (something I had never seen before), and the notch on the edge of > > the floppy disk was *triangular*. I figured it was some special > > media for bio-medical equipment, or for some bizarre photographic > > process, or something. > > > > Anyways, I never saw drives (or floppies) like that ever again, > > and always wondered about it. They looked brand-new, and the > > whole incident sticks out in my mind because I remember the > > owner was mad as hell-- apparently he spent a small fortune > > on these things, but nobody wanted them because they weren't > > 'standard'. > > > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 31 03:12:21 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:12:21 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com>, <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2008 at 17:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > I think the end of the last discussion on this resulted in the conclusion that > it could be done, but required frequencies high enough to rule out just > slapping some TTL together on a bit of prototype board... ISTR the bitrate from a ST412 drive was about 5 MHz, or one bit every 200 nsec/8 bits per 1.2 usec. That doesn't seem to be all that high to me--at least not in terms of today's logic. I think I remember that RLL 2,7 drives had to be able to handle 7.5 MHz data. Cheers, Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 31 04:37:40 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:37:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP9133D disk replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > The 9133H has a set of 3 jumpers on the controller board labelled 'Ident > Sea'. These seem to set the controller for different geometries, but I > have no idea what all 16 possiilites actually are. Anyone? In such cases I usually throw the firmware image at the IDA disassembler (we actually have bought two licenses) and look how it works. It shouldn't be a problem at all to locate the geometries table, and I would simply patch the firmware to work with the "new" drive. For example, I have disassembled the firmware of the HP 7958A and found out how to low-level format a foreign ESDI disk (the original one had failed) with different geometry (the geometry is read from the drive since it is ESDI). In this case HP-UX mediainit in guru mode was my friend. Christian From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 07:17:14 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:17:14 +0000 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0810310517n32ec5104kb72023bfaf23867a@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/22 Chris M : > I've been told using the compact Macs are an exercise in futility. But what about the Mac II's? (original II, IIx, IIfx, IIcx). > > I was just curious. I have tried 2 classic Macs on the Web in the last few years. A maxed-out Classic II: 68030 @ 16MHz on a 16-bit bus, 10MB RAM, MacOS 7.6.1, Netscape 3 and 4, Dayna Ethernet-SCSI adaptor on 8Mb/s ADSL. It worked in the theoretical sense: 25 *min* to render the top-left corner of Slashdot. Later, I set up a Quadra 630 as a "media centre". 25MHz 68040EC, 40MB RAM, comms slot 10base-T Ethernet, MacOS 8.1, IE 4, Netscape Navigator 4.04 and Netscape Communicator 4.6, with Quicktime, Flash, Acrobat Reader 3, stuff like that. Again, it "worked". On the 630, OS 8.1 gave me Netscape 3 and IE 3. Both pretty useless today; they can't render the Google homepage. I put Netscape 4 and IE 4 onto a Zip disk from an OS X Mac, installed 'em and at least I could get online. Both really struggle with the C21 Web and rendering is dog-slow but if you exercise Buddha-like patience you can use it. It's not unakin to being on dial-up. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 07:24:04 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:24:04 +0000 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <44EE4164-CC30-4AAA-B952-74F2B64DEE75@typewritten.org> References: <401750.53382.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48CA6B53.3090405@gmail.com> <44EE4164-CC30-4AAA-B952-74F2B64DEE75@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <575131af0810310524y73fa1a72yd263298defbdd2d9@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/12 r.stricklin : > > On Sep 12, 2008, at 7:13 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: > >> * The etherenet network card is a 3com model - exact model escapes me >> at the moment. You will probably need Apollo ROMs to use the card. > > 3C505. It's pretty recognizable as it's full-length and has a blue PCB. The > Apollo ROM is only needed to boot the machine diskless from ethernet, and to > make remote dumps over the ethernet. Is that the 16-bit ISA Etherlink 16? If so, I think I have 2 or 3 of those in my bits pile. Free if anybody wants 'em. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From jvdg at sparcpark.net Fri Oct 31 07:29:26 2008 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:29:26 +0100 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: <575131af0810310517n32ec5104kb72023bfaf23867a@mail.gmail.com> References: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <575131af0810310517n32ec5104kb72023bfaf23867a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2008/10/31 Liam Proven : > 2008/9/22 Chris M : > >> I've been told using the compact Macs are an exercise in futility. But what about the Mac II's? (original II, IIx, IIfx, IIcx). > > I have tried 2 classic Macs on the Web in the last few years. > > A maxed-out Classic II: 68030 @ 16MHz on a 16-bit bus, 10MB RAM, MacOS > 7.6.1, Netscape 3 and 4, Dayna Ethernet-SCSI adaptor on 8Mb/s ADSL. > > It worked in the theoretical sense: 25 *min* to render the top-left > corner of Slashdot. That's preposterous. I would blame the web master more than the browser and machine. > Later, I set up a Quadra 630 as a "media centre". 25MHz 68040EC, 40MB > RAM, comms slot 10base-T Ethernet, MacOS 8.1, IE 4, Netscape Navigator > 4.04 and Netscape Communicator 4.6, with Quicktime, Flash, Acrobat > Reader 3, stuff like that. > > Again, it "worked". On the 630, OS 8.1 gave me Netscape 3 and IE 3. > Both pretty useless today; they can't render the Google homepage. I > put Netscape 4 and IE 4 onto a Zip disk from an OS X Mac, installed > 'em and at least I could get online. Both really struggle with the C21 > Web and rendering is dog-slow but if you exercise Buddha-like patience > you can use it. It's not unakin to being on dial-up. I would use a browser like iCab (www.icab.de) on such systems. They offer more modern features and adhere to newer standards. To speed things up a bit, just override sites' CSS and always refer to a local, bare-bones CSS. Properly built sites will then display pretty well (Lynx-like, but usable). .tsooJ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 07:33:15 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 05:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Problems with VAX 11/750 console In-Reply-To: <26472043.1225442327967.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <456680.14707.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 10/31/08, Julian Wolfe (FireflyST) wrote: > I'm trying again to get my 11/750 running. It turns > on, power lights are green, machine comes up halted with the > dim error light as it should. THe problem I am having is, I > get no console...I get an echo back of the characters I > type, but nothing else. Doing a BREAK command or a Ctrl-P > does nothing. > Any suggestions? I'm out of ideas at this point. Do you have the RDM board? I had a similar problem, although mine was also throwing odd errors at the console. I have the RDM board, but it had faulty memory. The RDM (Remote Diagnostic Module, L0006) has it's own microprocessor and RAM. In my case, with bad RAM on the RDM, I couldn't get the RDM to run well enough to talk to the 11/750's console. There are different rows of headers on the backplane, with jumpers. The functions should be described on the cover plate sticker. Move the console serial port over to talk directly to the 11/750's console, instead of using the RDM board. Pull the RDM board. If you don't have the RDM board at all, then it's unlikely you have a blown receiver/transmitter chip, if characters are echoing. Is your terminal set for full or half duplex? If it's on half duplex, then yes, you could have a blown chip. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 31 09:43:28 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:43:28 -0400 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com>, <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> On Oct 31, 2008, at 4:12 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I think the end of the last discussion on this resulted in the >> conclusion that >> it could be done, but required frequencies high enough to rule out >> just >> slapping some TTL together on a bit of prototype board... > > ISTR the bitrate from a ST412 drive was about 5 MHz, or one bit every > 200 nsec/8 bits per 1.2 usec. That doesn't seem to be all that high > to me--at least not in terms of today's logic. I think I remember > that RLL 2,7 drives had to be able to handle 7.5 MHz data. What do the signals on the data connector look like? I seem to recall that there are some differential pairs on there...are they analog or digital? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Oct 31 11:43:02 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:43:02 -0500 Subject: Looking for a ST419 Message-ID: <01C93B4D.D6E62F60@host-208-72-122-71.dyn.295.ca> -----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:48:21 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Looking for a ST419 On 30 Oct 2008 at 10:45, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I realize that the operating system had individual sector write-ability > but was that accomplished by read-modify-write of that individual sector > in a controller buffer and then the entire track rewritten? or did the > controller sync to the beginning of the specific sector and write it > in place? Just that way--like a floppy--there are address marks and sector headers that mark the beginning of each sector. At least that's the way most controllers work. Of course, since the data stream from an ST412 interface is just a raw bunch of pulses, one could record anything on a track that one wanted, within the electrical limits of the drive. Cheers, Chuck ----------------Reply: The Cromemco STDC ST506-type controllers are an example of a controller that *did* format/read/write entire 10K tracks (no physical sectors), with a four-track cache. m From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 31 11:23:33 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:23:33 -0700 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:14 PM -0700 9/22/08, Chris M wrote: >I've been told using the compact Macs are an exercise in futility. >But what about the Mac II's? (original II, IIx, IIfx, IIcx). > > I was just curious. Can any pre-Mac OS X system run a browser that supports modern websites? This was the problem that caused my Mom to upgrade a couple years ago. Besides now that they've been selling Intel-based Mac's for a few years, doesn't the G5 2x2 I'm using count as an "early" Mac? :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jvdg at sparcpark.net Fri Oct 31 11:27:28 2008 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:27:28 +0100 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: References: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2008/10/31 Zane H. Healy : > Can any pre-Mac OS X system run a browser that supports modern websites? Not really. > This was the problem that caused my Mom to upgrade a couple years ago. > Besides now that they've been selling Intel-based Mac's for a few years, > doesn't the G5 2x2 I'm using count as an "early" Mac? :-) Considering "the Mac" as a family of computer systems celebrates its twenty-fifth anniversary next year, and the PowerMac G5, which was cancelled merely three years ago, certainly doesn't qualify as an "early Mac". IMHO, of course. :-P .tsooJ From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Oct 31 11:40:40 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:40:40 -0500 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <490AA025.5000108@gmail.com> References: , <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <4909F44A.13461.92B8564@cclist.sydex.com> <490AA025.5000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: When we lived further out of town and I could allow the cats to roam, my cat used to bring me fish. There was a creek in the woods with a footbridge over the shallow part, and he would sit on the bridge and pounce on fish as they swam under. It didn't happen very often, but it did. On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:05 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> PS... you are expected to eat them , why else would the cat bring >>>> them to you ... ;) >>> My cat brings cockroaches to my feet. Am I expected to eat >>> them? :oO >> It's just courtesy on the cat's part. When I had a cat, she used >> to bring dead marsh shrews and rough-skinned newts to me. Nothing >> eats those (outside of bacteria), not even cats. > > My cat somehow knew I was afraid of bugs, and so would kill them, > hide the carcass, and then produce a particular meow to let me know > it was okay to come out. > > Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 11:57:08 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:57:08 -0400 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: References: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <490B38E4.6020902@gmail.com> Joost van de Griek wrote: >> Can any pre-Mac OS X system run a browser that supports modern websites? > > Not really. Didn't one of the browsers work under Carbon? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 31 12:07:53 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Oct 31, 8 09:23:33 am" Message-ID: <200810311707.m9VH7rNY007356@floodgap.com> > > I've been told using the compact Macs are an exercise in futility. > > But what about the Mac II's? (original II, IIx, IIfx, IIcx). > > I was just curious. > > Can any pre-Mac OS X system run a browser that supports modern > websites? This was the problem that caused my Mom to upgrade a > couple years ago. Besides now that they've been selling Intel-based > Mac's for a few years, doesn't the G5 2x2 I'm using count as an > "early" Mac? :-) I use iCab 3.0.5 on my 9.2.2 iBook G3. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense. -------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 12:12:10 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:12:10 -0500 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com>, <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <490B3C6A.8040507@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Oct 2008 at 17:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I think the end of the last discussion on this resulted in the conclusion that >> it could be done, but required frequencies high enough to rule out just >> slapping some TTL together on a bit of prototype board... > > ISTR the bitrate from a ST412 drive was about 5 MHz, or one bit every > 200 nsec/8 bits per 1.2 usec. That doesn't seem to be all that high > to me--at least not in terms of today's logic. I think I remember > that RLL 2,7 drives had to be able to handle 7.5 MHz data. Sure, but I believe one of the assumptions was that it'd be useful to oversample the data and decode in software (possibly as an aid in error recovery, possibly to make the hardware independent of data encoding used - I don't remember which). That ends up pushing things into tens of MHz, and I suspect there's quite a few people who can happily throw LS-TTL logic onto a bit of breadboard but who don't have the experience or equipment to make something running at that sort of speed. Perhaps I'm completely misremembering, though, and mixing up a device which can archive a drive from a device which emulates such a drive (and it's only the emulation which needs the oversampling aspect) Related note: I think there's a whole range of data recovery devices / techniques that are worth thinking about (not only just with hard drives) - I keep wondering if a separate discussion medium for such topics would be useful, along with the support of various computer museums, but then we know how people can't generally agree on anything when it comes to some of these things :-) Seems a shame both that there's a wealth of info scattered around out there that could in theory be collected together, and that separate groups could easily end up doing the same tasks in parallel. cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Oct 31 12:25:51 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:25:51 -0500 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: References: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <490B3F9F.9060908@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:14 PM -0700 9/22/08, Chris M wrote: >> I've been told using the compact Macs are an exercise in futility. But >> what about the Mac II's? (original II, IIx, IIfx, IIcx). >> >> I was just curious. > > Can any pre-Mac OS X system run a browser that supports modern > websites? This was the problem that caused my Mom to upgrade a couple > years ago. Besides now that they've been selling Intel-based Mac's for > a few years, doesn't the G5 2x2 I'm using count as an "early" Mac? :-) Any system that supports 8GB of RAM and 2TB of internal storage counts as "current enough" in my book. :) Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 31 12:20:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:20:05 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <490ADBD5.5281.27023C@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2008 at 10:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > What do the signals on the data connector look like? I seem to > recall that there are some differential pairs on there...are they > analog or digital? Differential, but digital on the data connector. 26LS31 drivers, 26LS32 receivers across 100 ohm termination (one section of four is used in early drives). All the control signals are the usual 74LS38 open collector types. For the data line driver/receiver, probably most RS-422-capable devices would work. Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 31 14:09:07 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:09:07 -0500 Subject: Anyone seen a Corvus 386 Novell Server? In-Reply-To: <490ADBD5.5281.27023C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> <490ADBD5.5281.27023C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <490B57D3.7020508@atarimuseum.com> Wondering if anyone out there has or has seen a Corvus made Novell 386 Server? I have a promo sheet showing a 386 (and available at the time - 486) File Server in a custom Corvus Plastic case design. Meant to be a Novell 386 OS (3.11) fileserver with protocols to support IPX/SPX and Corvus RS422 "Omninet" protocol as well. Curt From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 31 13:16:57 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:16:57 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com>, <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <490B4B99.1070708@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote about the ST412 interface: > What do the signals on the data connector look like? I seem to recall that there > are some differential pairs on there...are they analog or digital? All electrical signals are analog, but I suppose we shouldn't start that discussion again. In practical terms, the differential pairs are RS-422, so they are digital, but you need RS-422 drivers and receivers to talk to them properly, and termination on the receivers. There are many suitable quad driver and quad receiver chips, such as the MC3486/3487 and Am26LS31/32. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 31 13:22:57 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:22:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <490B4B99.1070708@brouhaha.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com>, <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> <490B4B99.1070708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6E48C932-6833-48F7-98DD-5ED5572E63CD@neurotica.com> On Oct 31, 2008, at 2:16 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > What do the signals on the data connector look like? I seem to > recall that there > > are some differential pairs on there...are they analog or digital? > > All electrical signals are analog, but I suppose we shouldn't start > that discussion again. Well yes, you're preaching to the choir on that one. ;) > In practical terms, the differential pairs are RS-422, so they are > digital, but you need RS-422 drivers and receivers to talk to them > properly, and termination on the receivers. There are many > suitable quad driver and quad receiver chips, such as the > MC3486/3487 and Am26LS31/32. Ahh, that's not so bad. Is the whole interface spec available anywhere? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 31 13:56:08 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:56:08 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <6E48C932-6833-48F7-98DD-5ED5572E63CD@neurotica.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com>, <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> <490B4B99.1070708@brouhaha.com> <6E48C932-6833-48F7-98DD-5ED5572E63CD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <490B54C8.8040808@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote about the ST412 interface: > Is the whole interface spec available anywhere? There was never any formal standard. The closest thing is the ST 506/412 OEM Manual: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST412_OEMmanual_Apr82.pdf That doesn't cover some of the changes introduced in later drives, such as the head select 3 signal that replaced reduced write current, first introduced with the Maxtor XT-1105 and XT-1140, and documented in the Maxtor XT-1000 Product Specification and OEM Manual: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/maxtor/XT1000_OEM.pdf From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 31 13:58:06 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:58:06 -0400 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <490B54C8.8040808@brouhaha.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <119E2190-DD3C-43C2-88CC-DE70586E87FF@neurotica.com>, <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> <490B4B99.1070708@brouhaha.com> <6E48C932-6833-48F7-98DD-5ED5572E63CD@neurotica.com> <490B54C8.8040808@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <42987871-3369-4F4A-BBC2-DF761A34E6D4@neurotica.com> On Oct 31, 2008, at 2:56 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Is the whole interface spec available anywhere? > > There was never any formal standard. The closest thing is the ST > 506/412 OEM Manual: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST412_OEMmanual_Apr82.pdf > > That doesn't cover some of the changes introduced in later drives, > such as the head select 3 signal that replaced reduced write > current, first introduced with the Maxtor XT-1105 and XT-1140, and > documented in the Maxtor XT-1000 Product Specification and OEM Manual: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/maxtor/XT1000_OEM.pdf That's plenty to go on. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 31 14:24:55 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:24:55 -0700 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: <490B3F9F.9060908@mdrconsult.com> References: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <490B3F9F.9060908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: At 12:25 PM -0500 10/31/08, Doc Shipley wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Can any pre-Mac OS X system run a browser that supports modern >>websites? This was the problem that caused my Mom to upgrade a >>couple years ago. Besides now that they've been selling >>Intel-based Mac's for a few years, doesn't the G5 2x2 I'm using >>count as an "early" Mac? :-) > > Any system that supports 8GB of RAM and 2TB of internal storage >counts as "current enough" in my book. :) Fair enough since most of the current Mac's only support 4GB RAM, and that isn't enough for me. I'm trying to decide if I should rip out 1GB RAM to take mine up to the full 8GB. Moving from 5.5GB to 7GB a couple weeks ago really helped performance wise. I've not maxed out the disk space, I have a 750GB and a 1TB drive, not two 1TB drives (will the G5 take 1.5TB drives?). I really want an 8-core Mac Pro with 16GB RAM, and to start adding 1.5TB drives to it! :-) Though if it wasn't for my digital photography, I wouldn't even feel a need to upgrade my G5! To me that speaks well of a 5 year old computer. Realistically I think this says more about how the top of the line Mac's are so far ahead of the curve, than anything. The sad thing is system won't even be supported in 10.6 from what everyone is hearing (I'm still at 10.4.11). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bear at typewritten.org Fri Oct 31 14:55:48 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:55:48 -0700 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <575131af0810310524y73fa1a72yd263298defbdd2d9@mail.gmail.com> References: <401750.53382.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48CA6B53.3090405@gmail.com> <44EE4164-CC30-4AAA-B952-74F2B64DEE75@typewritten.org> <575131af0810310524y73fa1a72yd263298defbdd2d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BF1688A-8963-49B6-B89B-E546709D8114@typewritten.org> On Oct 31, 2008, at 5:24 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > 2008/9/12 r.stricklin : >> >> 3C505. It's pretty recognizable as it's full-length and has a blue >> PCB. The >> Apollo ROM is only needed to boot the machine diskless from >> ethernet, and to >> make remote dumps over the ethernet. > > Is that the 16-bit ISA Etherlink 16? If so, I think I have 2 or 3 of > those in my bits pile. Free if anybody wants 'em. It isn't. The Etherlink 16 is 3C507. ok bear From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 31 15:05:38 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Oct 31, 8 12:24:55 pm" Message-ID: <200810312005.m9VK5c1e015220@floodgap.com> > Realistically I think this says more about how the top of the line > Mac's are so far ahead of the curve, than anything. The sad thing is > system won't even be supported in 10.6 from what everyone is hearing > (I'm still at 10.4.11). I need 10.4.11 to still run Classic apps (which, happily, brings this thread back almost on topic ;-). I'm probably going to use X11 and run apps from my AIX server rather than upgrade. I'm starting to get a little exasperated with Apple these days. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If elected, I will win. -- Pat Paulsen for President ----------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 31 15:13:02 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: References: , <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <4909F44A.13461.92B8564@cclist.sydex.com> <490AA025.5000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081031131148.W87089@shell.lmi.net> > > My cat somehow knew I was afraid of bugs, and so would kill them, hide > > the carcass, and then produce a particular meow to let me know it was > > okay to come out. > What happened when you accidentally found where the cat was hiding the bodies? There is enough room in a good mainframe to NEVER find them. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Oct 31 15:43:57 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:43:57 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> So - none has a S8000... at home? ;) I'm missing a backplane so I tried at first hooking up power on my CPU module and connecting a serial interface to the tty1 (console) pins of the bus-connector.... powering on the system makes the cpu getting a bit warm but my console is quiet :( I'm not sure if I've to connect some other pins as well with +5V or GND. NMI... RESET whatever... so I wonder if someone has a S8000 at hand and can measure some things? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 15:56:35 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:56:35 -0400 Subject: Old Heath Software - New In Box - Query In-Reply-To: <20081031131148.W87089@shell.lmi.net> References: , <017201c93aeb$c47cab40$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <4909F44A.13461.92B8564@cclist.sydex.com> <490AA025.5000108@gmail.com> <20081031131148.W87089@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <490B7103.3070406@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> My cat somehow knew I was afraid of bugs, and so would kill them, hide >>> the carcass, and then produce a particular meow to let me know it was >>> okay to come out. >> What happened when you accidentally found where the cat was hiding the bodies? > > There is enough room in a good mainframe to NEVER find them. The mainframe would've chopped the cat up into tiny pieces and cooked it. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 31 16:16:47 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:16:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 31, 8 10:43:28 am Message-ID: > > ISTR the bitrate from a ST412 drive was about 5 MHz, or one bit every > > 200 nsec/8 bits per 1.2 usec. That doesn't seem to be all that high > > to me--at least not in terms of today's logic. I think I remember > > that RLL 2,7 drives had to be able to handle 7.5 MHz data. > > What do the signals on the data connector look like? I seem to > recall that there are some differential pairs on there...are they > analog or digital? They are digital level signals. Normally there's a differential pair for read data nad one for write data. The drivers are 26LS31s or similar, the recievers 26LS32s. But of course they're sort-of analogue in time. In that they're a repreestation of the raw data stream to/from the heads. IIRC it's very like a floppy drive, a pulse on the write data input causes a flux transition on the disk on writing, while on reading a flux transisiton on the disk casues a constnat-width pulse on the read data signal. While the pulse width is not controlled by data on the disk (but by a one-shot on the logic board), the exact timing of that pulse does come from the disk, and can be essentially any value within the spec of the drive. The obvious thing to do is to sample the data stream (either from the controller wehn writing/formatting, or from a good drive if you want to copy it) at about 10 times the data rate (that's where the 'high speed' requirement comes from) and record it in flash memory or something. Then replay it back to the cotnroller for reading. It's doable, but getting it all working at 50MHz is not going to be trivial. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 31 16:10:21 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:10:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9133D disk replacement. In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Oct 31, 8 10:37:40 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > The 9133H has a set of 3 jumpers on the controller board labelled 'Ident Make that _4_ jumpers... > > Sea'. These seem to set the controller for different geometries, but I > > have no idea what all 16 possiilites actually are. Anyone? > > In such cases I usually throw the firmware image at the IDA disassembler Well, if you want to give it a go, I can probably find an image of the 9133H firmware EPROM. And I should have the memory/IO map of the unit somewhere. At least that would tell you which address corresponds to reading those jumpers. The processor is a 68B09, BTW (most of the smaller HP disk/tape units used the 6809. I think the 82901 5.25" drive used a 6802 or someing, and the 9145 tape drive has a full-blown 68000 in it). > For example, I have disassembled the firmware of the HP 7958A and found > out how to low-level format a foreign ESDI disk (the original one had > failed) with different geometry (the geometry is read from the drive since > it is ESDI). In this case HP-UX mediainit in guru mode was my friend. I hope you've kept a record of this procedure. It's the sort of thing others may have to do sometime... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 31 13:54:49 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:54:49 -0700 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <6E48C932-6833-48F7-98DD-5ED5572E63CD@neurotica.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <490B4B99.1070708@brouhaha.com>, <6E48C932-6833-48F7-98DD-5ED5572E63CD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <490AF209.13369.7DBFF4@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2008 at 14:22, Dave McGuire wrote: > > In practical terms, the differential pairs are RS-422, so they are > > digital, but you need RS-422 drivers and receivers to talk to them > > properly, and termination on the receivers. There are many > > suitable quad driver and quad receiver chips, such as the > > MC3486/3487 and Am26LS31/32. What I said. In fact, no need for quad devices if you're just emulating a single drive. There are plenty of dual-unit RS-422 drivers/receivers available. > Is the whole interface spec available anywhere? How about the ST-412 OEM doc? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST412_OEMmanual_Apr82.pdf As a matter of fact, on page 21 it states "NOTE: ANY EIA RS-422 DRIVER/RECEIVER PAIR WILL INTERFACE". Cheers, Chuck From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 31 16:36:45 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50784.67.93.24.222.1225489005.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> >> > ISTR the bitrate from a ST412 drive was about 5 MHz, or one bit every >> > 200 nsec/8 bits per 1.2 usec. That doesn't seem to be all that high >> > to me--at least not in terms of today's logic. I think I remember >> > that RLL 2,7 drives had to be able to handle 7.5 MHz data. >> >> What do the signals on the data connector look like? I seem to >> recall that there are some differential pairs on there...are they >> analog or digital? > > They are digital level signals. Normally there's a differential pair for > read data nad one for write data. The drivers are 26LS31s or similar, the > recievers 26LS32s. > > But of course they're sort-of analogue in time. In that they're a > repreestation of the raw data stream to/from the heads. IIRC it's very > like a floppy drive, a pulse on the write data input causes a flux > transition on the disk on writing, while on reading a flux transisiton on > the disk casues a constnat-width pulse on the read data signal. While the > pulse width is not controlled by data on the disk (but by a one-shot on > the logic board), the exact timing of that pulse does come from the disk, > and can be essentially any value within the spec of the drive. > > The obvious thing to do is to sample the data stream (either from the > controller wehn writing/formatting, or from a good drive if you want to > copy it) at about 10 times the data rate (that's where the 'high speed' > requirement comes from) and record it in flash memory or something. Then > replay it back to the cotnroller for reading. It's doable, but getting it > all working at 50MHz is not going to be trivial. If emulating a drive though, couldn't one standardize on one valid (faster) data rate (versus the difference between inner/outer cylinders) ? If you have the bitstream represented, and the timing variability need not be duplicated, wouldn't this become simpler (and hence more feasable) ? -- Curt > > -tony > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 16:42:09 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:42:09 -0400 Subject: Catweasel Mailing List Message-ID: <95999FFAD9204A909AE04BECF6312B61@andrewdesktop> Hi, The original 1998 Catweasel mailing list has been reclaimed and is operational again. If you are interested in Catweasel please join the mailing list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catweasel Thank you and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Oct 31 17:05:57 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:05:57 +0000 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: References: <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20081031220557.GB27443@usap.gov> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 09:16:47PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > ISTR the bitrate from a ST412 drive was about 5 MHz... > > The obvious thing to do is to sample the data stream (either from the > controller wehn writing/formatting, or from a good drive if you want to > copy it) at about 10 times the data rate (that's where the 'high speed' > requirement comes from) and record it in flash memory or something. Then > replay it back to the cotnroller for reading. It's doable, but getting it > all working at 50MHz is not going to be trivial. I agree that a 50MHz digitizer is not a trivial device, but if it would still work backed down to 25MHz or even a little slower, say 4x or 5x the rate of the raw stream, there'd be a lot more margin to work with, especially with modern high-speed microcontrollers like the Dallas DS89C450-MNG. You still need a local storage system fast enough to handle the bits once they are collected and possibly partially analyzed/reduced. That's one arena in which a rotating disk is simpler than many solid-state solutions. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Oct-2008 at 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.9 F (-47.7 C) Windchill -79.6 F (-62.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.9 kts Grid 9 Barometer 676.5 mb (10761 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 31 17:23:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:23:50 -0700 Subject: HP9133D disk replacement. In-Reply-To: References: from "Christian Corti" at Oct 31, 8 10:37:40 am, Message-ID: <490B2306.22203.13D18A5@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2008 at 21:16, Tony Duell wrote: > The obvious thing to do is to sample the data stream (either from the > controller wehn writing/formatting, or from a good drive if you want > to copy it) at about 10 times the data rate (that's where the 'high > speed' requirement comes from) and record it in flash memory or > something. Then replay it back to the cotnroller for reading. It's > doable, but getting it all working at 50MHz is not going to be > trivial. I suspect that 8x oversampling may do the trick; i.e. 40MHz for plain- Jane MFM. Assume that this will work--will timings really be faster than is practicable? Let's see if the math works. Back-of-the-envelope, so you're advised to double-check my numbers. Assume a brute-force, one-bit-per-sample implementation. An ST412 spins at 3600 RPM, giving a rotational period of 16.667 milliseconds. The datarate is 5MHz, so a track can hold about 83335 transitions (less than a 1.44MB floppy track, BTW). We want to oversample by 8, so we need to sample 666680 times per revolution. If we use a 16-bit-wide RAM to hold sample data, that's about 42K 16- bit words, so a 16x65K memory will be more than sufficient and perhaps allow for a bit faster sampling rate (Tony's 50 MHz) if we need it. So, while the bit shifting (or its equivalent) is performed at a 40 MHz clock rate, access to the RAM occurs at 40/16 = 2.5 MHz or 400 nsec--or perhaps 200 nsec while writing (a read is necessary to "splice" the bit stream). Not bad at all--and a 40MHz shift register (or its equivalent) is certainly doable using some of the faster TTL- compatible logic families (e.g. 74AS). And note that you're only sampling a bit stream whose maximum frequency is 5MHz. Who wants to build one? Cheers, Chuck From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 17:32:35 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:32:35 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: Google Indexing OCR'd PDFs Message-ID: <9e2403920810311532y418508cfm1bfa643122d5b423@mail.gmail.com> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/picture-of-thousand-words.html Could this indeed be useful, especially when sites like Bitsavers are indexed? Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Oct 31 17:50:55 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:50:55 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: Google Indexing OCR'd PDFs In-Reply-To: <9e2403920810311532y418508cfm1bfa643122d5b423@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920810311532y418508cfm1bfa643122d5b423@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <490B8BCF.2030105@pacbell.net> Josef Chessor wrote: > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/picture-of-thousand-words.html > > Could this indeed be useful, especially when sites like Bitsavers are indexed? yes, but does Al want each of the crawlers sucking down gigabytes of PDF images? On my own much smaller websites, I've segregated image-only PDFs into their own directories and then put an exclusion of those directories in robots.txt to keep out the crawlers. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 31 19:00:05 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:00:05 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: Google Indexing OCR'd PDFs Message-ID: <490B9C05.1050209@bitsavers.org> > Could this indeed be useful, especially when sites like Bitsavers are indexed? I've been watching this fairly closely, since I started to see the content being OCRed on the mirrors. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 21:01:48 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:01:48 -0700 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: I have a card set and backplane saved from a machine that went to scrap, nothing else. It is lost in my container. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 31 21:56:26 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Catweasel Mailing List In-Reply-To: <95999FFAD9204A909AE04BECF6312B61@andrewdesktop> References: <95999FFAD9204A909AE04BECF6312B61@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > The original 1998 Catweasel mailing list has been reclaimed and is > operational again. If you are interested in Catweasel please join the > mailing list. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catweasel > > Thank you and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch Nice! I have a mk4. The thought of a list just for this little gem is very very intriguing. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 03:38:47 2008 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:38:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Problems with VAX 11/750 console Message-ID: <26472043.1225442327967.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi all, I'm trying again to get my 11/750 running. It turns on, power lights are green, machine comes up halted with the dim error light as it should. THe problem I am having is, I get no console...I get an echo back of the characters I type, but nothing else. Doing a BREAK command or a Ctrl-P does nothing. The closest thing I can find to this problem is in the 11/50 FAQ, found here: http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/750faq.html Here is what the FAQ states: "Help! My machine isn't listening to the console! Symptoms: machine starts up normally and prints the successful microverify double percent and the console prompt, but ignores console input. This may be because the RS232 line receiver on the console port has given up the ghost. I've had to replace the one on mine twice. Note that it isn't a good idea to leave the console terminal switched on if the machine is switched off -- the line receiver chip doesn't like this and tends to fail eventually. To replace the line receiver: a) Locate and remove the L0004 UBI module. b) Hold the UBI component-side up with the edge connectors down the RHS. c) Locate E53, a 1489, at the right-hand side of the board, near the top of the second edge connector. This is the only 1489 on the board. d) Replace E53. I strongly recommend using a socket for the replacement. " Now, this does not sound similar to my problem. I have indeed verified that all the jumpers on the backplane are in the right place, and so are the connectors. The jumper is set to 300 baud, and that is indeed the only setting I get a clean echo back without garbage on. Any suggestions? I'm out of ideas at this point. Julian From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 12:53:23 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <575131af0810310524y73fa1a72yd263298defbdd2d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <953553.41369.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> interested mate. Let me know the details. Something tells me you're in the UK (I'm in New Jersey). Thanks. --- On Fri, 10/31/08, Liam Proven wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Subject: Re: any Apollo fans out yonder? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 8:24 AM > 2008/9/12 r.stricklin : > > > > On Sep 12, 2008, at 7:13 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: > > > >> * The etherenet network card is a 3com model - > exact model escapes me > >> at the moment. You will probably need Apollo ROMs > to use the card. > > > > 3C505. It's pretty recognizable as it's > full-length and has a blue PCB. The > > Apollo ROM is only needed to boot the machine diskless > from ethernet, and to > > make remote dumps over the ethernet. > > Is that the 16-bit ISA Etherlink 16? If so, I think I have > 2 or 3 of > those in my bits pile. Free if anybody wants 'em. > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: > http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: > lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + > 44 870-9151419 > AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: > lproven at hotmail.com > Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? > ICQ: 73187508 From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Oct 31 16:24:54 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:24:54 -0400 Subject: Memory test util for classic macs? Message-ID: Anyone know of a decent memory test utility that runs on classic macs (68k based)? I have an old Mac Portable that I'm struggling to get an OS on -- I consistently get "bad F-line instruction" traps when booting from System 7 disks (floppies and CD-ROMs), which from what I can tell probably means bad memory. I'd like to find out if it IS memory, and if so, whether it's the onboard 1mb (I hope not) or on the 4mb expansion... My internet searches have come up dry (I've found stuff for OS X, and early PowerMacs, but nothing for the 68k line). Thanks, Josh From chrise at pobox.com Fri Oct 31 16:30:49 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:30:49 -0500 Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <490B3C6A.8040507@gmail.com> References: <490A38D4.3040004@gmail.com> <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com> <490B3C6A.8040507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081031213049.GM16012@n0jcf.net> I'm new here so I apologize for opening this old can of worms :-) On Friday (10/31/2008 at 12:12PM -0500), Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 30 Oct 2008 at 17:44, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> I think the end of the last discussion on this resulted in the conclusion >>> that it could be done, but required frequencies high enough to rule out >>> just slapping some TTL together on a bit of prototype board... >> >> ISTR the bitrate from a ST412 drive was about 5 MHz, or one bit every 200 >> nsec/8 bits per 1.2 usec. That doesn't seem to be all that high to me--at >> least not in terms of today's logic. I think I remember that RLL 2,7 >> drives had to be able to handle 7.5 MHz data. > > Sure, but I believe one of the assumptions was that it'd be useful to > oversample the data and decode in software (possibly as an aid in error > recovery, possibly to make the hardware independent of data encoding used - > I don't remember which). That's the path I've been on. I envision over-sampling and then just playing and recording what was sent to the drive. I'd make no attempt to go inside that datastream and try to interpret what was read or written. If entire tracks were always written, then it seems rather straightforward to just store track images and play and record them as they are seeked to. It may not be that much harder to do the same on a sector basis. It's just more critical timing of when you play back stuff or decide which sector you are in when data comes at you with the write gate open. I have considered using the SPI (or similar) interface on a microcontroller to yield a parallel to serial/serial to parallel conversion but that is about as far as I have thought about this... other than reading the ST-506 manual that has been referenced elsewhere. > That ends up pushing things into tens of MHz, and I suspect there's quite a > few people who can happily throw LS-TTL logic onto a bit of breadboard but > who don't have the experience or equipment to make something running at > that sort of speed. We've got a lot of microcontroller options these days with most of that highspeed stuff already on the device. > Perhaps I'm completely misremembering, though, and mixing up a device which > can archive a drive from a device which emulates such a drive (and it's > only the emulation which needs the oversampling aspect) > > Related note: I think there's a whole range of data recovery devices / > techniques that are worth thinking about (not only just with hard drives) - > I keep wondering if a separate discussion medium for such topics would be > useful, along with the support of various computer museums, but then we > know how people can't generally agree on anything when it comes to some of > these things :-) Seems a shame both that there's a wealth of info > scattered around out there that could in theory be collected together, and > that separate groups could easily end up doing the same tasks in parallel. Ya... so, again I'm new here :-) But I'll go away quitely and think about this some more-- knowing now that I can't cheat and do tracks at a time. Thanks for the input in any case. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 17:29:02 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone seen a Corvus 386 Novell Server? In-Reply-To: <490B57D3.7020508@atarimuseum.com> References: <20081029232309.GH31694@usap.gov>, <490A5B75.31351.ABE82EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <25B2B610-A76B-4814-A8DE-240F461E2F9A@neurotica.com> <490ADBD5.5281.27023C@cclist.sydex.com> <490B57D3.7020508@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Wondering if anyone out there has or has seen a Corvus made Novell 386 > Server? I have a promo sheet showing a 386 (and available at the time - > 486) File Server in a custom Corvus Plastic case design. Meant to be a > Novell 386 OS (3.11) fileserver with protocols to support IPX/SPX and Corvus > RS422 "Omninet" protocol as well. Curt, I've seen the literature for that machine, too. It is quite possible that it existed only in the minds of the marketing department. Wouldn't be the first time :-). Steve --