From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 1 00:46:04 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:46:04 -0800 Subject: seven segment display history References: <47C726F6.1080406@gmail.com> <47C6D9E3.29813.1B705C5@cclist.sydex.com> <47C78A38.E3AC2391@cs.ubc.ca> <47C814F5.6080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47C8FBAB.6AD4F990@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > The earliest *off-the-shelf* 7-segment display modules that I've run across are > > from ca. 1967: > > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/dialco7seg/ > > As can be seen, they use neon bulbs. The displays themselves are not dated but > > other component date codes in the instrument they came out of were in the range > > 66xx-67xx. > > Now that looks like the sort of thing I saw in the mock-up (unfortunately > there's a lot of reflection in the photo that I took from the perspex screen > they'd covered the model with, so it's probably not worth sharing). > > It's impossible to tell from the mock-up exactly what type of technology it > was though; it was just the seven-segment nature that surprised me, as I don't > think I've seen it that early elsewhere (everything was either Nixie or stacks > of side-lit perspex plates with proper formed numerals on them). > > Interesting point from Chuck about the possible failure mode of 7-seg's > though. Perhaps they never thought of that! (.. just reminds me the 'LAMP TEST' button used to be a standard feature on control consoles, in general; and the 7447 7-seg decoder has a lamp-test input.) Don't know if it correlates with the sort of equipment you saw, but I agree with Chuck the mission control consoles in the pic he provided look like film-projection displays, the numerals are too well-formed. I have one frequency counter using that type of display. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 1 00:46:35 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:46:35 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <9e2403920802290852r704788f4wb0a016f27af14adc@mail.gmail.com>, <47C7EBEA.7318.5E56ED0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47C8FBCB.226DD9FC@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'm curious why anyone would want a front panel with lights and > switches. Except for some early IBM mainframe stuff, the number of > systems that I've worked with that had no front panel vastly > outnumber the ones that did. > > Indeed, the front panel on the MITS 8800 seemed to be a waste of good > components and an anachronism at that. Better to take the costs of > the panel and roll them into a good diagnostic ROM with loader. The > S-100 followup machine that I used, an Integrand box, had only a > reset button on the front panel. I never missed the switches. After > the MITS box, I never owned another system with a blinkenlights-and- > switches front panel. > > Just trying to understand. As much as the Altair and IMSAI panels can be considered unnecessary (the contemporary SWTPC 6800 went straight to a two-button panel (power and reset)), one might consider how much the Altair/IMSAI front panels influenced or hastened the take-off of the PC/computer-hobbyist market/revolution. Those front panels said: 'Look, you can have your own computer just like the ones the big boys have'. Would it have been the same if the cover of Popular Electronics in 1976 pictured a blank box with two switches? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 1 01:22:16 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 23:22:16 -0800 Subject: seven segment display history References: <47C726F6.1080406@gmail.com> <20080301053346.GA9265@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47C90428.4A52403B@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have something like that with me here in my bag-o-parts... approx 20mm > by 30mm, with a 2mm-thick body made of a rough, dark ceramic, with a 1mm > thick glass top. It's a 2.5 digit display with + and -. All the leads > come through the back of the package in what appears to be a straight- > through fashion (making it easy to figure out how to hook it up). > > There is a vendor and part number etched on the face: Sperry SP-738. > > I've never tried to hook it up to anything, and have no idea what > voltages it might want. It's a shame it's only 2.5 digits; if it > were 3.5 digits, it might make an interesting 12-hour clock face. > Not sure what I'd need to do that swings from -199 to +199 off the > top of my head. Temperature? Your description sounds like the Sperry/Beckman gas-discharge displays, e.g.: http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/trade08-panaplex.htm I think your part number is in there. Can be cascaded with more digits, or a lot of early DVMs were only 2.5 digits. From mikelee at tdh.com Sat Mar 1 01:35:18 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 01:35:18 -0600 Subject: Source for TTL chips In-Reply-To: <8CA494E01E572E2-CC4-955@webmail-nf19.sim.aol.com> References: <8CA494E01E572E2-CC4-955@webmail-nf19.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <47C90736.2020502@tdh.com> For small amounts I use Jameco Electronics... tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > >> DigiKey or Unicorn Electronics. > >> Both want $25 on the order or a handling fee applies. > >> Grant > >> At 09:03 AM 2/29/2008, you wrote: > > >> It used to be you could go to Radio Shack and pick up a couple of > 74ls02 >> chips as needed. Now it seems there isn?t a source for someone who > wants to >> purchase a handful of 74xx ttl chips. I have a ?brand new? s100 SIO > card >> that is just missing the 14 logic chips to go in the sockets, but I am > not >> finding a convenient source for them. >> >> Anyone know where I can go to find them in very small quantities? >> >> Jeff Erwin > > > The Digikey "Handling fee" used to be $5 . . . > > If you're buying 14 TTL's, you may already be at the $25 minimum. . . > > I don't usually start with Digikey, though. > > Try checking out MOUSER . . . MCM electronics, or JAMECO. > > All can be reached at their .com websites. . . > > (Jameco still has NOS 4164's and 41256's and decent prices.) > > > > > T > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Mar 1 01:38:35 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 08:38:35 +0100 Subject: Integral RAM upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47C907FB.5000505@bluewin.ch> > 1M (82916, settings after I upgraded my 512K board) > W3, W4, W5, W6, U45 ('ALS157), W14, W12, W13. 32 off 41256 RAMs. > Thanks for this info Tony. >> Jos, busy finding the DRAM's in my "archive" > > A it of advice if you're doing the upgrade. If, as I did, you decide to > socket the new RAMs, you can used turned-pin sockets, I tend to not use sockets in this case. I will test the boards after freeing the holes, test the 41256's before use, but then I will just solder them. I am just fighting multiple 4116 failues in my Lilith's spare memory boards, and these drams are soldered in. It is a pain, but i believe 41256 are less errorprone then those 3-voltage 4116's and I just dont like sockets. BTW Lilith hardware and microcode docs are up on bitsavers, if you are looking for some bedtime literature ! Jos From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 1 02:12:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:12:26 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <47C8FBCB.226DD9FC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <47C8FBCB.226DD9FC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <47C89F6A.2326.8A29566@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Feb 2008 at 22:46, Brent Hilpert wrote: > As much as the Altair and IMSAI panels can be considered unnecessary (the > contemporary SWTPC 6800 went straight to a two-button panel (power and reset)), > one might consider how much the Altair/IMSAI front panels influenced or > hastened the take-off of the PC/computer-hobbyist market/revolution. Those > front panels said: 'Look, you can have your own computer just like the ones the > big boys have'. Would it have been the same if the cover of Popular Electronics > in 1976 pictured a blank box with two switches? You know, in my case, it wouldn't have helped. To this day, I remember inviting a member of the fair sex to my apartment to see my newly-assembled MITS 8800 happily running some blinkenlights program. Her reaction was devastating--"THAT'S NOT A COMPUTER--THAT'S A TOY!". Mencken was right. "How little it takes to make life unbearable: a pebble in the shoe, a cockroach in the spaghetti, a woman's laugh." Cheers? Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 1 02:31:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:31:26 -0800 Subject: Source for TTL chips In-Reply-To: <47C90736.2020502@tdh.com> References: <8CA494E01E572E2-CC4-955@webmail-nf19.sim.aol.com>, <47C90736.2020502@tdh.com> Message-ID: <47C8A3DE.23896.8B3FACB@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Mar 2008 at 1:35, Michael Lee wrote: > For small amounts I use Jameco Electronics... Where does one go to find the not-very-common TTL? e.g., the 7497 rate multiplier; the 74199 8-bit register, etc. TI had some pretty estoteric circuits also--74LS362, 74LS444, 74S485, 74S481... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 1 02:35:59 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:35:59 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <004b01c87b39$6826ba60$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: , <004b01c87b39$6826ba60$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <47C8A4EF.2130.8B82503@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Feb 2008 at 20:13, Andrew Lynch wrote: > While working on this rather simple project, it kept occurring to me that > the PIC is practicaly begging to be made into a general purpose low chip > count computer. Add some address and data bus latches, static memory, an > EPROM, maybe a peripheral or two. The parallel and serial ports are > practically built in already. Yes, the PIC doesn't have your traditional > data and address bus but with a small 40 pin PIC protoboard like this, it > doesn't seem like it'd be all that hard to interface one to a small SRAM > like a 6264. Andrew and I have discussed this one. My idea would be to take a PIC or AVR and implement something like a P-code machine in the firmware. Fetch the instruction and data stream from the 6264. That way, there's no problem with the Harvard architecture uC running all instructions out of PROM. You could also construct a FORTH machine the same way, I suspect. Cheers, Chuck From wayne.smith at charter.net Sat Mar 1 03:24:54 2008 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 01:24:54 -0800 Subject: Integral RAM upgrade In-Reply-To: <200803010739.m217dp0S043831@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 00:06:39 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > I/O - but I have to say I was extremely impressed by the upgrade - > > almost exciting reading! > > I assume thats saracsm. It's a very simple upgrade -- it was > obvious what > the extra chipos should be, it was also obvious what most of > the links > did. And I do have a 'factory' 1M board in my other Integral > (although I > could have worked it out without that). > Tony: No sarcasm intended - what's simple to you is an adventure to others. For me it was a very educational read - and if it was really that simple, you wouldn't need to post the steps, would you? Thanks for the tour! -W From cheri-post at web.de Sat Mar 1 03:43:31 2008 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:43:31 +0100 Subject: IBM s/390 Coupling Facility conversion Message-ID: <410611825@web.de> Hello all, just a question out of couriosity: Does anybody of you have experience regarding a conversion of a s/390 coupling facility into a fully usable s/390 server system? I got a coupling facility Generation 3. The difference between such facilities and a fully usable server configuration is that it can only use a single type of interconnections, no ESCON adapters etc. I think that such a coupling facility is defined by the software installed on the front-end system (and IBM Thinkpad) and I heard that IBM can perform a conversion. Can a hobbyist do the same? And hints or advises are appreciated! Have a nice weekend and thanks alot in advance for your answers. Kind regards, Pierre _________________________________________________________________________ In 5 Schritten zur eigenen Homepage. Jetzt Domain sichern und gestalten! Nur 3,99 EUR/Monat! http://www.maildomain.web.de/?mc=021114 From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat Mar 1 03:43:56 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 04:43:56 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on Q-bus to CF/IDE Message-ID: <8CA4997E7299F5B-404-6076@webmail-nb16.sysops.aol.com> There has been alot of discussion, as well as some good (and not-so-good suggestions) with regards to the construction of a Q-bus to IDE interface. No doubt a good portion of it is from people in the field with the knowlege and experience to take on such a project. Being an end-user, I tend to look at things more from the standpoint of convenience, practicality, and feasability. We don't really need to know if it CAN be done, because we already know the answer. The REAL challenge is to design something that can be readily assembled without the need for very specialized or high-end equipment, and doesn't rely on obsolete or hard to find parts. After all, what is the point of designing something really cool, if it can't be easily reproduced by the average person, without spending tons of money? At that point, it's cheaper and easier to buy something that is already made. With that said, here are some things that would be important to me, when considering the design of such a device. I've heard on more than one occasion that MSCP isn't convenient to implement because of it's bad block replacement scheme, and that it would be easier to use an older emulation. For practicality purposes, that narrows it down to either MASSBUS (RM/RP), RK05/RK07, or RL01/RL02 emulation. To that end, my questions and suggestions are based on that premise. Note that some of these things are "easier said than done", but are nonetheless "something to think about". 1.) Construction Can it be easily assembled by someone with a modicum of technical skill, and resources? Some examples would be - Will the layout be relatively simple? i.e, can it be constructed on a a single or double-sided circuit board, rather than a multi-layer board? Can it be constructed with readily available parts? i.e., parts that aren't 20 years old, or hard to find? Will components be standard DIPS, or SMT? How easy will it be to get the firmware onto the prom? 2.) Ease of use How will you tell it what it needs to emulate? Obviously, a fixed emulation would be the easiest to implement. RM05, RP06, or whatever. One capacity, one prom. However, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to create selectable emulations via dip switches. Obviously NVRAM is nicer, but may add to the overall cost and complexity. 3.) Compatability Whatever the design, I'm sure most of us will agree that it should use STANDARD, unmodified DEC drivers for operation. From what I hear, RT11 drivers are a snap to create, but I personally dread the thought of trying to add an unproven driver into an operating system such as RSTS/E or RSX. I think from a compatability standpoint, we're better off trying to "pretend to be" something that is already supported across multiple platforms, and the source code for those drivers are readily available. Going further down the non-MSCP route, I had some thoughts on some of the basic implementation - A relatively SIMPLE design would yield something like this: Basic functions could be driven by a bank of seven dip switches. You'd have to pick ONE capacity, and stick with it. Three switches would be used to select the number of drives being emulated by the controller. (1 through 8) Four switches would be used to select the drive emulation. RM02/RM03/RM04/RM05 RP02/RP03/RP04/RP06/RP07 RK05/RK07 RL01/RL02 The controller would be forced as the first (primary controller) of it's type. Address and vectoring would be tied directly to the emulation switches, and it would set itself to the primary address and vectors automatically. Starting LUN is always ZERO. Are we an RL01? Then set our address to 17774400, vector 160. (And ignore bit 3 for the number of drives on the controller !) A more advanced approach would involve using NVRAM instead of switches. (Storing the parameters ON the drive could be used as well, as long as there was some sort of redundancy and recovery feature involved, in the event of a bad sector popping up in the parameters area.) If NVRAM or disk-based parameters were used, you could select your address and vectors manually. Additionally, this would allow you to mix-and-match some of the drive capacities, effectively allowing you to emulate two RM02's, and 3 RM05's, for example. Of course, you'd still have to stay within the same general emulation. Flexible drive sizes could cause problems down the road though, particularly if you want to change the size of a drive, when there are other emulations already on the disk. To get around this problem, a fixed partitioning scheme could be implemented, based on the maximum size drive for each emulation. Let's say you wanted RM emulation. An RM05 is the largest, at ~256MB. The firmware could be set to create 8 partitions of 256MB each. (Requiring a minimum of a 2.1GB drive). Each emulated drive would start at a fixed position on the disk, regardless of size, on 256MB boundaries. Then you could change/set the capacity of any of the units without affecting the others. In this instance, the drive type doesn't determine the starting position, only the amount of space being used by a particular unit. Later, if you decide you want drive #2 to be am RM03, you simply change it in NVRAM, and format it from your operating system. The space between the end of the RM03, and the 256MB boundary is simply ignored. A mixed RL01/RL02 emulation would work the same way; taking up ~40MB of space, regardless of drive type selected. Some other ideas: 40-pin header, and a CF card slot on the front edge of the board ! It might be trivial to implement RAID 1 (mirroring) on a 2nd (identical) hard drive set to "slave", particularly if we're looking at blind writes to disk. Any thoughts or suggestions? T From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 1 03:40:02 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 04:40:02 -0500 Subject: seven segment display history Message-ID: <01C87B58.877E50C0@MSE_D03> --------Original Messages: Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 23:22:16 -0800 From: Brent Hilpert Subject: Re: seven segment display history To: General at priv-edmwaa04.telusplanet.net, "Discussion at priv-edmwaa04.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <47C90428.4A52403B at cs.ubc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have something like that with me here in my bag-o-parts... approx 20mm > by 30mm, with a 2mm-thick body made of a rough, dark ceramic, with a 1mm > thick glass top. It's a 2.5 digit display with + and -. All the leads > come through the back of the package in what appears to be a straight- > through fashion (making it easy to figure out how to hook it up). > > There is a vendor and part number etched on the face: Sperry SP-738. > > I've never tried to hook it up to anything, and have no idea what > voltages it might want. It's a shame it's only 2.5 digits; if it > were 3.5 digits, it might make an interesting 12-hour clock face. > Not sure what I'd need to do that swings from -199 to +199 off the > top of my head. Temperature? Your description sounds like the Sperry/Beckman gas-discharge displays, e.g.: http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/trade08-panaplex.htm I think your part number is in there. Can be cascaded with more digits, or a lot of early DVMs were only 2.5 digits. ----------------Reply: A little tricky to interface because of the high voltage, keep-alive anodes, etc. I may have some of the driver chips though if you're serious. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 1 03:52:13 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 04:52:13 -0500 Subject: Empty Burroughs binders Message-ID: <01C87B58.88DD4480@MSE_D03> I know, I know; I should have kept the contents and thrown out the binders. What can I say... Anyway, if anyone wants some binders with the Burroughs logo, some generic and some machine-specific (L series, B80, B800) enough to pay postage, let me know. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 1 03:54:52 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 04:54:52 -0500 Subject: Sales brochures, price lists etc. Message-ID: <01C87B58.89E23160@MSE_D03> Time to finally clean out some file cabinets; what should I do with sales brochures, price lists, etc. from the 80s? Nothing exciting, not very informative, but hate to just toss 'em into the recycle bin. m From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Mar 1 03:07:40 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 01:07:40 -0800 Subject: Info on Total Impact "Total PowerSMP"? Message-ID: <47C91CDC.2030905@msu.edu> Ok, so this barely qualifies for the "10-year rule" but I'm asking it anyway because you guys are so forgiving of these things :). Picked up a "Total PowerSMP" PCI card made by "Total Impact" in the mid-90s. (I think around '96?). From the very limited information I've found on the 'net (mostly echoed info from press releases) this thing has four PPC 604e CPUs on it. (233Mhz, if I'm reading the chip correctly). This is about all the information I've been able to find on the board. Anyone have any documentation or software for this thing? Total Impact seems to have disappeared off the face of the planet. Thanks, Josh From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Mar 1 06:16:19 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 12:16:19 +0000 Subject: seven segment display history In-Reply-To: <47C90428.4A52403B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <47C726F6.1080406@gmail.com> <20080301053346.GA9265@usap.gov> <47C90428.4A52403B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20080301121619.GB9265@usap.gov> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 11:22:16PM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > I have something like that with me here in my bag-o-parts... > > Sperry SP-738. > > > > It's a shame it's only 2.5 digits... > > Not sure what I'd need to do that swings from -199 to +199 off the > > top of my head. > > Temperature? Good idea. Even here, 2.5 digits is enough. > Your description sounds like the Sperry/Beckman gas-discharge displays, e.g.: > http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/trade08-panaplex.htm Yep. That's it. Thanks for the pointer. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 1-Mar-2008 at 12:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -58.7 F (-50.4 C) Windchill -87.0 F (-66.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.7 kts Grid 133 Barometer 689.0 mb (10291 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Mar 1 06:18:54 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 12:18:54 +0000 Subject: seven segment display history In-Reply-To: <01C87B58.877E50C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C87B58.877E50C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20080301121854.GC9265@usap.gov> On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 04:40:02AM -0500, M H Stein wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > There is a vendor and part number etched on the face: Sperry SP-738. > > A little tricky to interface because of the high voltage, keep-alive > anodes, etc. Yeah... I read the specs. I'm know about nixies and plain neon tubes, etc., but I don't know anything about "keep-alive anodes". > I may have some of the driver chips though if you're serious. I would love to make this do something useful. The display was free (I got it in a pile of parts from a friend who retired and left the State), but I've always wanted to do something interesting with it. Perhaps an AVR-controlled, Dallas 1-wire thermometer display? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 1-Mar-2008 at 12:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -58.7 F (-50.4 C) Windchill -87.0 F (-66.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.7 kts Grid 133 Barometer 689.0 mb (10291 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Mar 1 09:11:43 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 10:11:43 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <47C88B3D.9050001@gmail.com> References: <8CA47E0A7969C16-ED8-3577@webmail-ne10.sysops.aol.com> <1204188073.32030.8.camel@elric> <47C681E6.8050900@gmail.com> <200802281443.JAA11662@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C7429F.8000907@dunnington.plus.com> <47C7496E.3070907@gmail.com> <47C880F8.4040708@compsys.to> <47C88B3D.9050001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <889c521e7c4a068083fced9dc639ae05@neurotica.com> On Feb 29, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> If anyone ever produces a Qbus / IDE (or any other PC >> current drive) controller, I will gladly enhance the HD(X).SYS >> device driver for RT-11 to use a DU(X).SYS translation >> type table. > > Wouldn't the concern then be that it would only be supported in RT-11, > and/or it would not be bootable? One of the primary motivations for > me in this exercise would be CD-ROM booting. I'm seriously > considering an off-the-shelf solution for the ATA/ATAPI side to save > myself some effort. No sense reinventing the wheel. That'd be my concern as well. While I do like RT-11, my DEC OS interests like in the areas of RSX-11 and especially RSTS/E. This is where the whole "emulating an standard controller" comes into play...and where I stall. I could easily build a Qbus ATA adapter...but not so easily one that emulates something that already exists. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 1 09:27:10 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 07:27:10 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <47C8A4EF.2130.8B82503@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <004b01c87b39$6826ba60$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <47C8A4EF.2130.8B82503@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 29 Feb 2008 at 20:13, Andrew Lynch wrote: > >> While working on this rather simple project, it kept occurring to me that >> the PIC is practicaly begging to be made into a general purpose low chip >> count computer. Add some address and data bus latches, static memory, an >> EPROM, maybe a peripheral or two. The parallel and serial ports are >> practically built in already. Yes, the PIC doesn't have your traditional >> data and address bus but with a small 40 pin PIC protoboard like this, it >> doesn't seem like it'd be all that hard to interface one to a small SRAM >> like a 6264. > > Andrew and I have discussed this one. My idea would be to take a PIC > or AVR and implement something like a P-code machine in the firmware. > Fetch the instruction and data stream from the 6264. That way, > there's no problem with the Harvard architecture uC running all > instructions out of PROM. > > You could also construct a FORTH machine the same way, I suspect. > Hi It would lack the on board compiler but I know of a company that sells an embilical Forth where the Forth runs on a Harvard machine and a PC is use to do the interactive part. It just uses the boot load to update the code in the chip. From the user, the PC end looks like it is the chip and the chip has just the needed code and no wasted space that isn't the final application. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 1 09:39:44 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 07:39:44 -0800 Subject: board scan, design reconstruction (was IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <004d01c87b39$684a6f00$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <004d01c87b39$684a6f00$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: > From: lynchaj at sbcglobal.net > > Hi, > > All those S-100 boards definitely sound interesting but here is a twist for > something I think would be highly useful for recovering data from vintage > computers using generic PCs. > > How about a PCI floppy controller board? Maybe with some supplementary > logic to allow raw track reads? Possibly a BIOS to boot from? An external > floppy drive connector? > > Just wondering how complicated such a thing would be. Thanks! > Hi It would be relatively easy if you did most of the work in a DSP chip. For the floppy end, you need a parallel port to read status and write controls. For reading raw data, a 7474 flipflop, an adjustable clock and a DSP chip, such as a ADSP2118 or similar. Then you'd need a bus interface to the PCI bus. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 1 09:52:35 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 10:52:35 -0500 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <200803011046.m21Akccb052194@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001e01c87bb4$44d07120$6500a8c0@barry> I am not a selectric guru, but I have one and I think that the most likely cause is that the lubricant has dried out, isn't lubricating and in fact is acting like glue or adhesive. The "right" way to fix this is to have the whole mechanism immersed in a bath of solvent (quite a few things have to be disassembled and removed before this is done) to clean off the old lubricant, and then relubricated afterwards. This used to be common, but there are not many places now that still do it and it's expensive (probably a couple hundred dollars). I have a full IBM service manual for the Selectric II, which is virtually identical to your machine, but I only have it in hard copy, not PDF, and it's bound. Perhaps there is a PDF copy of this manual on the 'net somewhere. A guy who did the immersion cleaning used to advertise his service on E-Bay, you might to a search there, or a google search. Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com PS - Actually I found the contact information for someone who was still doing this at least in 2006. His name is Rich Wiley, he is at 800-552-8592 and his E-Bay ID was coyote0153. From marvin at west.net Sat Mar 1 10:35:11 2008 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 08:35:11 -0800 Subject: Sales brochures, price lists etc. Message-ID: <47C985BF.8370B6FB@west.net> That is the same problem I have/had. I extablished a cutoff date recycled anything I didn't consider interesting after that. The sales brochures I generally kept, but for other stuff, I just put a cutoff date of sometime in the early 1980s for anything I considered common or not interesting. > From: M H Stein > > Time to finally clean out some file cabinets; what should I do with > sales brochures, price lists, etc. from the 80s? Nothing exciting, > not very informative, but hate to just toss 'em into the recycle bin. > > m From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 1 11:33:49 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 12:33:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Some time back (years), someone was working on an IDE interface for >> a Qbus MicroVAX and I was doing the driver. [...] >> We never got it working, and it is not clear to me, now, why not. >> [...] what memory I have indicates that there were hardware issues, > the likely reason is PDP-11 and VAX does read before write and IDE > does not like that. Huh? The only sense I can think of in which the PDP-1 and VAX could be said to do read before write is in the bus transaction sense, and anything that could be called "IDE" was insulated from bus transactions. While the card didn't have much smarts, it did have that much; it looked enough like a wdc that I did the driver as an "attach wdc at uba with wdc_uba" attachment layer, rather than a completely new driver. I find I still have my copy of the dev directory, including a boot-time console log: uba0 at ibus0: Q22 ubasearch: cf_loc[0] 0171000, pa 0x20001200 [wdc_uba_probe: ua->ua_ioh 020500251000] st0=52 st1=50 wdc_uba_probe: setting vector 774 wdc0 at uba0 csr 171000 vec 774 ipl 17 st0=52 st1=50 wd0 at wdc0 channel 0 drive 0: wd0: drive supports 16-sector pio transfers, chs addressing wd0: 114 MB, 917 cyl, 15 head, 17 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 233835 sectors wd1 at wdc0 channel 0 drive 1: wd1: drive supports 16-sector pio transfers, lba addressing wd1: 1222 MB, 2484 cyl, 16 head, 63 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 2503872 sectors wd1: drive supports PIO mode 3, DMA mode 1 wdc0: establishing interrupt, vector 1774 I'm not sure how it worked enough to query the disk like that but failed later. That serial-console log file seems to indicate that it worked fine for 512-byte transfers but attempts to do larger transfers led to an unending stream of "wdc_uba_intr: stray", meaning it was seeing interrupts that the wdc interrupt routine was declining to handle. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 1 11:58:34 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:58:34 -0700 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >>> Some time back (years), someone was working on an IDE interface for >>> a Qbus MicroVAX and I was doing the driver. [...] > >>> We never got it working, and it is not clear to me, now, why not. >>> [...] what memory I have indicates that there were hardware issues, > >> the likely reason is PDP-11 and VAX does read before write and IDE >> does not like that. > > Huh? The only sense I can think of in which the PDP-1 and VAX could be > said to do read before write is in the bus transaction sense, and > anything that could be called "IDE" was insulated from bus > transactions. While the card didn't have much smarts, it did have that > much; it looked enough like a wdc that I did the driver as an "attach > wdc at uba with wdc_uba" attachment layer, rather than a completely new > driver. I find I still have my copy of the dev directory, including a > boot-time console log: Well if my SBC6120 ( PDP 8 Clone) can have a IDE interface why not some other PDP. We are not looking for high speed just hardware in this case. From bob at jfcl.com Sat Mar 1 12:07:28 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 10:07:28 -0800 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> >Well if my SBC6120 ( PDP 8 Clone) can have a IDE interface >why not some other PDP Ah, but for the SBC6120 I wrote a custom device driver for OS/8. The IDE interface doesn't emulate any standard PDP-8 device. As somebody already pointed out, if you're willing to write device drivers for all the PDP-11 operating systems, it'd be easy enough to do the same thing for QBUS or UNIBUS. Bob From slawmaster at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 12:10:09 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 13:10:09 -0500 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <001e01c87bb4$44d07120$6500a8c0@barry> References: <200803011046.m21Akccb052194@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001e01c87bb4$44d07120$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <7d3530220803011010m3036c42cie6b20bf986dbc0ae@mail.gmail.com> On 3/1/08, Barry Watzman wrote: > I am not a selectric guru, but I have one and I think that the most likely > cause is that the lubricant has dried out, isn't lubricating and in fact is > acting like glue or adhesive. The "right" way to fix this is to have the > whole mechanism immersed in a bath of solvent (quite a few things have to be > disassembled and removed before this is done) to clean off the old > lubricant, and then relubricated afterwards. This used to be common, but > there are not many places now that still do it and it's expensive (probably > a couple hundred dollars). I have a full IBM service manual for the > Selectric II, which is virtually identical to your machine, but I only have > it in hard copy, not PDF, and it's bound. Perhaps there is a PDF copy of > this manual on the 'net somewhere. A guy who did the immersion cleaning > used to advertise his service on E-Bay, you might to a search there, or a > google search. > > Now, interestingly, I turned it on this morning and was able to type fine again for maybe 8 lines. As I typed, the carriage return speed got slower and slower until it would no longer reach the left margin. This leads me to believe that there might be some sort of problem where a pulley has grease that eventually warms up and causes it to slip, or something of that nature. I'll try to look for disassembly instructions online and see if I can open it up and clean out the pulleys related to carriage return. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From menadeau at comcast.net Sat Mar 1 12:28:26 2008 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 13:28:26 -0500 Subject: Selling off large literature collection References: Message-ID: <009a01c87bca$0a423320$6701a8c0@Mike> After a lot of thought, I've decided to sell off my collection of computer literature. This collection consists of presskits, brochures, photos, catalogs, and other items. Much of this collection came from my years as an editor for publications such as BYTE and 80 Micro. The age ranges from the early 1970s through the 1990s, and includes everything from PDAs, micros, portables, minis, and mainframes. It also includes material on software, peripherals, online services, and misc. related paraphernalia. If you have my book, Collectible Microcomputers, most of the images in it were scanned from this material. My plan is to sell it off piece by piece, and I'm giving list members first dibs. Pricing will be reasonable, below eBay rates. I do have a few rare items that I will need to get more for. I do not have a list, but it's filed in a somewhat orderly fashion. If you send me your want list offline, I can get back to you quickly. I'm also traveling frequently through early May, which might slow my responses. There is a catch. The reason I'm selling is that I'm going digital--it's a lot easier to manage everything that way. I plan to scan the items as I sell them. If you want a lot of items, it may take a little time for me to scan them. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 12:51:05 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 10:51:05 -0800 Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90803011051r3eae4ed9o68ff3cad328f41db@mail.gmail.com> Just out of curiosity I installed RSTS/E 9.6 on a SIMH PDP-11 and thought I'll try to install DECNET 4.1, but I've come up empty trying to find any info on how that is done. I know almost nothing about RSTS/E yet but I'm trying to slowly learn. I figured out that I could RESTORE INSTAL.BCK from the DECNET 4.1 tape image and that resulted in just a few files, one of which was DECNET.COM. That appeared to be an installation script, but it is not clear if that is something that is intended to be manually invoked, or if something else invokes it. I tried invoking it manually with some guesses for the parameters, but that didn't get me anywhere. Is there an installation guide on the net somewhere that I haven't been able to find? Does anyone have a sample SIMH session transcript showing the proper way to install DECNET 4.1 on RSTS/E 9.6? From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 1 13:39:46 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:39:46 -0500 Subject: Sales brochures, price lists etc. Message-ID: <01C87BAA.3990B220@mandr71> Yeah, same here; the trouble is that a lot of things that I deemed uninteresting and tossed out in the past turned out after the fact to be very interesting indeed for some other folks, as I discovered when I joined this list. And despite the general disdain for newer stuff and especially PC stuff, in 20 years that may also be interesting; now I don't dare throw anything out. Anyway, looks like they've found a new home and I hope that any interesting ones will be scanned & made available on the Web. Coincidentally and related to another recent thread on here, the first brochure I happened to pick up was from Techtran, who had a line of standalone and rack-mount RS-232 cassette and diskette units (Interacters); turns out I even have the remnants of one of their units in my junk pile. Think I'll keep the Russian (Cyrillic) Cromemco brochure though... mike ****************************************************************************** Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 08:35:11 -0800 From: Marvin Johnston Subject: Re: Sales brochures, price lists etc. That is the same problem I have/had. I extablished a cutoff date recycled anything I didn't consider interesting after that. The sales brochures I generally kept, but for other stuff, I just put a cutoff date of sometime in the early 1980s for anything I considered common or not interesting. > From: M H Stein > > Time to finally clean out some file cabinets; what should I do with > sales brochures, price lists, etc. from the 80s? Nothing exciting, > not very informative, but hate to just toss 'em into the recycle bin. > > m From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Mar 1 13:42:45 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 11:42:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Source for TTL chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Jeff Erwin wrote: > It used to be you could go to Radio Shack and pick up a couple of 74ls02 > chips as needed. Now it seems there isn?t a source for someone who wants to > purchase a handful of 74xx ttl chips. I have a ?brand new? s100 SIO card > that is just missing the 14 logic chips to go in the sockets, but I am not > finding a convenient source for them. > > Anyone know where I can go to find them in very small quantities? I always send off to Jameco for stuff like that. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 1 15:10:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:10:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Integral RAM upgrade In-Reply-To: <47C8411A.5802.73231F4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 29, 8 05:30:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Feb 2008 at 23:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> I would have thought the 5150 upgrade involved removing the > existing RAMs > > nad rpelacing them with larger-capacity chips, more like what I did to > > my HP9816. > > Only the first row of 4116s needed to be removed. The other three > rows were socketed. 'Removed' is not the same as 'unsoldered' :-). Only the first row needs to be unsoldered, ut all 4 rows need to be removed (if they're present). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 1 15:15:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:15:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9816 RAM upgrade In-Reply-To: <47C8411A.5802.73231F4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 29, 8 05:30:02 pm Message-ID: > >> I would have thought the 5150 upgrade involved removing the > existing RAMs > > nad rpelacing them with larger-capacity chips, more like what I did to > > my HP9816. I mentioned in passing that this was similar to what I did to my 9816.. That machine came to me with 32 4164s on the logic board, for a total of 256K RAM. After figuring out the circuity, it was clear that pin 1 (the extra address input on the 41256) was already bussed between the ICs. Moreover, there was a plasce o nthe PCB for an 'extra' 16 pin chip, whcih turned out to be for the multiplexer for this address line, and a place for the series terminating resistor. There were also some traces to cut and jumper, but in all cases, the cuts were little traces between jumper pads (i.e. one position of the jumper was already in the etch), the juper wires had to be soldered between adjacent pads. These mods changed which address line selected between the 2 backs of the ICs, and changed how many addres lines were used in the overall RAM select decoder. Anyway, that time I did have to desolder all 32 RAMs, and there wasn't height for sockets, so I had to solder in the 41256s. Added a 74F158 mux (a 74F157 would do as well, but the former was in my junk box), did the cuts and jumpers, and now have a 9816 with 1M on the logic board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 1 15:25:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:25:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Integral RAM upgrade In-Reply-To: <47C907FB.5000505@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Mar 1, 8 08:38:35 am Message-ID: > >> Jos, busy finding the DRAM's in my "archive" > > > > A it of advice if you're doing the upgrade. If, as I did, you decide to > > socket the new RAMs, you can used turned-pin sockets, > > I tend to not use sockets in this case. > I will test the boards after freeing the holes, test the 41256's > before use, but then I will just solder them. It's up to you. I've never had problems with turned pin sockets, so I used them, just in case one of the RAMs I pulled from an old PC memory board turned out to be dead or marginal. > > I am just fighting multiple 4116 failues in my Lilith's spare memory > boards, and these drams are soldered in. It is a pain, but i believe > 41256 are less errorprone then those 3-voltage 4116's and I just dont I think you're right there. Those 3-rail chips didn't like it if the -5V line came up after the other 2, for exmaple... > like sockets. > > BTW Lilith hardware and microcode docs are up on bitsavers, if you are > looking for some bedtime literature ! Thanks, I will take a look sometime. That's one machine I'd love to find, but there's little chance of that (perhaps fortuantely, I have no idea where I'd put one). Incidentally, getting back to the HP Integral, if you ever find any software that usppoerts the 'second' serial port on the RS232 card, let me know. I assume you know about that little easter egg... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 1 15:18:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:18:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Integral RAM upgrade In-Reply-To: <008701c87b45$253fd7c0$02fea8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza" at Feb 29, 8 11:34:17 pm Message-ID: > > > The links have the following functions : > > What about a web page? ;o) > Look, I spend all my time figuring out how to repair and hack the hardware of classic computers. I don't have time (or inclination) to learn html as well :-) More seriously, if anyone wants to take my link setting info and stick it on a web page (with acknowledgement), feel free to do so. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 1 15:33:19 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:33:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Integral RAM upgrade In-Reply-To: from "Wayne Smith" at Mar 1, 8 01:24:54 am Message-ID: > No sarcasm intended - what's simple to you is an adventure to others. Now, perhaps, you can understnad how I feel when something is described as a simple bit of programming (either for a PC or a microcontroller). What's easy for one person is not necessarily easy for another. This RAM upgrate was very much a p[roject o fill a spare afternoon while I was thinking about _another_ classic computer repair. [For example, getting back to that cassette decoder thread, I don't think I could write a tone decoder program for a PIC off the top of my head, and I certainly couldn't for an AVR, as I've never used thar series of microntrolelrs at all. But the pinouts of most TTL chips are in mask-ROM in my brain :-),. and I have a well-stocked junk box. Get the picture? ;-)] > For me it was a very educational read - and if it was really that > simple, you wouldn't need to post the steps, would you? Thanks for the Well, I decided to descrie it stages becuse 'Fit the extra RAMs and change the links' doesn't make much of a posting... -tony From grant at stockly.com Sat Mar 1 16:33:52 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 13:33:52 -0900 Subject: Source for TTL chips In-Reply-To: <47C8A3DE.23896.8B3FACB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8CA494E01E572E2-CC4-955@webmail-nf19.sim.aol.com> <47C90736.2020502@tdh.com> <47C8A3DE.23896.8B3FACB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0JX200ICNPCGCY40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 11:31 PM 2/29/2008, you wrote: >On 1 Mar 2008 at 1:35, Michael Lee wrote: > > > For small amounts I use Jameco Electronics... > >Where does one go to find the not-very-common TTL? e.g., the 7497 >rate multiplier; the 74199 8-bit register, etc. TI had some pretty >estoteric circuits also--74LS362, 74LS444, 74S485, 74S481... Unicorn has the 97 and 199, and can get you everything else. I have bought every single vintage IC for all of my kits through Unicorn. If it isn't listed on their web site, I custom order them. I've bought 8008s, the Kenbak memory, everything. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 1 16:54:20 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:54:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <47C8FBCB.226DD9FC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <9e2403920802290852r704788f4wb0a016f27af14adc@mail.gmail.com>, <47C7EBEA.7318.5E56ED0@cclist.sydex.com> <47C8FBCB.226DD9FC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20080301145032.L45545@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Brent Hilpert wrote: > As much as the Altair and IMSAI panels can be considered unnecessary (the > contemporary SWTPC 6800 went straight to a two-button panel (power and reset)), > one might consider how much the Altair/IMSAI front panels influenced or > hastened the take-off of the PC/computer-hobbyist market/revolution. Those > front panels said: 'Look, you can have your own computer just like the ones the > big boys have'. Would it have been the same if the cover of Popular Electronics > in 1976 pictured a blank box with two switches? I have heard a number of times that the actual machine never made it to that photo shoot, so what was pictured was an empty box mock-up. If that mock-up hadn't had lights and switches, then billg would have stayed at Harvard, IBM wouldn't have felt a need to protect their monopoly, and Sellam's warehouse(s) would be empty. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Mar 1 17:22:51 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 18:22:51 -0500 Subject: Source for TTL chips In-Reply-To: <0JX200ICNPCGCY40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <8CA494E01E572E2-CC4-955@webmail-nf19.sim.aol.com> <47C90736.2020502@tdh.com> <47C8A3DE.23896.8B3FACB@cclist.sydex.com> <0JX200ICNPCGCY40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <47C9E54B.8060405@nktelco.net> Grant Stockly wrote: > Unicorn has the 97 and 199, and can get you everything else. > > I have bought every single vintage IC for all of my kits through > Unicorn. If it isn't listed on their web site, I custom order them. > I've bought 8008s, the Kenbak memory, everything. > URL? Googling gives me at least 2 that sell ICs. -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 1 17:50:42 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 15:50:42 -0800 Subject: Integral RAM upgrade In-Reply-To: References: <47C8411A.5802.73231F4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 29, 8 05:30:02 pm, Message-ID: <47C97B52.4005.BFD93D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Mar 2008 at 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: > 'Removed' is not the same as 'unsoldered' :-). Only the first row needs > to be unsoldered, ut all 4 rows need to be removed (if they're present). In the case of the planar I modified, they were the same thing--only the first row was populated. :-b Cheers, Chuck From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Mar 1 11:20:22 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 09:20:22 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <47C89F6A.2326.8A29566@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <47C8FBCB.226DD9FC@cs.ubc.ca> <47C89F6A.2326.8A29566@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47C99056.30707@garlic.com> Chuck Guzis ????????: > > To this day, I remember inviting a member of the fair sex to my > apartment to see my newly-assembled MITS 8800 happily running some > blinkenlights program. Her reaction was devastating--"THAT'S NOT A > COMPUTER--THAT'S A TOY!". > What did you expect? Ok, I know, I know; boys love to show off their toys and all. Ze blinkenlichten iz zoooooo beeyooteefool! Girls just don't get it! All those computers with all those blinkenlichten on the telly and the movies were really cool, fascinating and hypnotic. Practically every kid--I mean, every boy, wanted blinkenlichten too, right? Besides, in the "Real World", blinkenlichten tell we who love them what the machine is thinking about (or not) at any given moment, right? It's better than having a black box that won't talk to you when it has a problem, if it talks at all. Between the days of the common blinkenlichten and effusively talkative software, there was that period of hell when systems contained very terse code that wouldn't do anything if something went wrong--wouldn't talk, wouldn't run, etc., adn. It practically took a computer psychic to figure out the problem. Besides being sooooooo beeyooteefool, they had a very practical purpose. I think they would still serve a useful purpose, even if it is only on extremely rare occasions. And they are cool and quite retro. Well, you might even be able to turn off the room lights... > Mencken was right. "How little it takes to make life unbearable: a > pebble in the shoe, a cockroach in the spaghetti, a woman's laugh." > Something can be done about the first two, though. > Cheers? ??? Not if my wife sees this. == jd From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 1 18:46:39 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 17:46:39 -0700 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> Message-ID: <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Well if my SBC6120 ( PDP 8 Clone) can have a IDE interface >> why not some other PDP > > Ah, but for the SBC6120 I wrote a custom device driver for OS/8. The IDE > interface doesn't emulate any standard PDP-8 device. > > As somebody already pointed out, if you're willing to write device drivers > for all the PDP-11 operating systems, it'd be easy enough to do the same > thing for QBUS or UNIBUS. True, but then it becomes a software rather than a hardware problem. > Bob From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 18:49:12 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 19:49:12 -0500 Subject: WaveMate Bullet Message-ID: <002701c87bff$3bce4570$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi All, Thanks to some very generous help from a few friends, I have been able to finally locate a boot disk for the WaveMate Bullet. In addition, I was able to repair the unit and now it boots and seems to be working at least to some degree. Along the way, I gathered up a lot of disk images, documentation, files, and assorted other items related to the WaveMate Bullet. As this is a rather unusual vintage computer I am considering storing this cache of stuff online someplace to help any other prospective WaveMate Bullet owners. My first reaction is to start another Yahoo! Group but I know a lot of people here absolutely hate those so I thought I'd poll the list to see if anyone could suggest a more palatable alternative. My requirements are simple; just a small amount of file storage, a simple web interface, and a mailing list. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From rickb at bensene.com Sat Mar 1 19:08:09 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 17:08:09 -0800 Subject: seven segment display history In-Reply-To: References: <47C726F6.1080406@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 28, 8 03:26:14 pm Message-ID: I remember that seven-segment format being used in TTL(Time To Launch)/MET (Mission Elapsed Time) on big signs by NASA in the early to mid-1960's. These were BIG digits that could be read from long distances. The segments were formed by putting together incandescent lights in rows and columns, and a seven-segment rendition made the digits. Also, many sports scoreboards did (and still today) use a similar seven-segment rendition using individual incandescent lamps to form segments. Also, Brent mentioned the HP 9100A using a 7-segment rendition. True, but the much earlier (1963 versus 1968) Friden 130 used a seven segment rendition on its CRT display. It was slightly modified so that the "1" was centered (by slightly shifting the deflection to the left a bit when a 1 was displayed). Also, a number of calculators introduced prior to the HP 9100 utilized CRT displays with seven-segment renditions, including the Victor 3900, and a couple of machines sold under contract under the Busicom brand name, but designed and manufactured by Wyle Laboratories (among them the Busicom 202), as well as Wyle Laboratories' original WS-01 and WS-02 calculators. These machines were all made between 1965 and 1968. The mission-control consoles of the 1960's and early '70's (before CRT displays pretty much displaced discrete displays) typically used projection-type displays, with small incandescent lights for each digit, which would shine through a photomask of the shape of the digit, and be focused on a frosted glass or plastic screen. I had an old digital clock years ago, using transistorized ring counters that used these type of displays. They were very readable, and nice, naturally formed digits, with a nice white digit against at darker background. The clock was made in 1966 if I remember correctly. Wish I still had that thing...it ended up getting tossed out by my parents :-( Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 1 19:27:22 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:27:22 -0500 Subject: Source for TTL chips In-Reply-To: <0JX0008ZDS23O110@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JX0008ZDS23O110@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <200803012027.22610.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 29 February 2008 16:37, Grant Stockly wrote: > DigiKey or Unicorn Electronics. > > Both want $25 on the order or a handling fee applies. > > Grant > > At 09:03 AM 2/29/2008, you wrote: > >It used to be you could go to Radio Shack and pick up a couple of 74ls02 > >chips as needed. Now it seems there isn?t a source for someone who wants > > to purchase a handful of 74xx ttl chips. I must've missed this the first time around, or it's lower down in the stack... > > I have a ?brand new? s100 SIO card that is just missing the 14 logic chips > > to go in the sockets, but I am not finding a convenient source for them. > > > >Anyone know where I can go to find them in very small quantities? Have a look here: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/w4s.html and use your browser's search function (usually ctrl-F) to find "TTL". That's only the stuff I have a lot of, I have somewhat lesser quantities of other numbers too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Mar 1 19:35:14 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:35:14 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47CA0452.3040203@nktelco.net> woodelf wrote: > > True, but then it becomes a software rather than a hardware problem. > True... and I think that was his point. There are not many people capable of writing *new* device drivers for PDP-11 or VAX OSs. Software development for a 20 year old OS is not easy. -chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 1 19:32:25 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:32:25 -0500 Subject: On interfaces, paper tape readers/punches, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803012032.25372.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 29 February 2008 19:34, Tony Duell wrote: > > Well yeah...anyone who would replace a single 74LS00 with a > > microcontroller would certainly earn a "moron" sticker on the forehead. > > Hang on a sec... > > Back in the 'decoding FSK cassette data' theard, somebody suggested 'a > couple of tone dectors and a microcontroller' I asusme the 'tone > detectors' are soemthing like an NE567. In whci case the logic to combine > them into a itstream is only a few logic gates. > > And I still feel that the bast way to impleemtn that logic is not a > microcontroller. I do indeed have a board around here someplace that I have no info on, but it's got a row of those -- 12? -- and the outputs of them seem to be coupled to a couple of 7400 chips. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 19:48:23 2008 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (Maurice.Smulders) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 18:48:23 -0700 Subject: hp 10391b inverse assembler/ HP1651A In-Reply-To: <000501c87b4c$97cc2ad0$6601a8c0@rc0537df8aaf14> References: <000501c87b4c$97cc2ad0$6601a8c0@rc0537df8aaf14> Message-ID: <47CA0767.30200@gmail.com> Christian wrote: > I have an identical item. I need a 720kb floppy LIF formatted floppy disk, mine is shot. If you would care to make a copy of the HP 1651A OS on your machine I would be glad to pay for it. For now I'm dead in the water. I have tried to create a OS disk but I have LOTS of gaps in my machine language understanding. Also any help in this direction would be GREATLY appreciated. > > Best Regards, > Chris Wolters > > Chris, You can download the files from agilent: http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?kt=1&cc=US&lc=eng&k=1651a If you then download the disks from http://www.hp1652bmanual.com/ It has a description how to make HP 1652B disks. Same story for the HP 1651A logic analyzer... Kind regards, Maurice From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 19:48:23 2008 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (Maurice.Smulders) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 18:48:23 -0700 Subject: hp 10391b inverse assembler/ HP1651A In-Reply-To: <000501c87b4c$97cc2ad0$6601a8c0@rc0537df8aaf14> References: <000501c87b4c$97cc2ad0$6601a8c0@rc0537df8aaf14> Message-ID: <47CA0767.30200@gmail.com> Christian wrote: > I have an identical item. I need a 720kb floppy LIF formatted floppy disk, mine is shot. If you would care to make a copy of the HP 1651A OS on your machine I would be glad to pay for it. For now I'm dead in the water. I have tried to create a OS disk but I have LOTS of gaps in my machine language understanding. Also any help in this direction would be GREATLY appreciated. > > Best Regards, > Chris Wolters > > Chris, You can download the files from agilent: http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?kt=1&cc=US&lc=eng&k=1651a If you then download the disks from http://www.hp1652bmanual.com/ It has a description how to make HP 1652B disks. Same story for the HP 1651A logic analyzer... Kind regards, Maurice From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Mar 1 20:11:31 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:11:31 -0500 Subject: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? In-Reply-To: <0JX000I9R97M3GZ2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > The same CPU and FPU are sued on the KA630cpu (uVAXII) and in early > microvax3100s so any of them should compare. I have a uVAXII which I'll be getting to eventually - right now it's not running, but I hope to change that eventually :-) > Is it possible that someone has overclocked the that uV2000??? I don't think so, as all the clocks (5Mhz, 40Mhz and 69Mhz) are right where they should be in frequency. > FYI: gate leakage would kill the chips not make it run hot. The > usual reasons for hot running are: > > Over voltage! > Overclock > Undercool > Excessive bus loads (capacitive or resistive) > > Since the machine is a closed system for the most part the first is > most likely and the others are least likely. I've checked the power and it's well within spec. Clocks appeare to be where they should be. Cooling fan is not binding, appears to be running at the right speed, there are no abnormal obstructions to the cooling flow. > I may add that over 60C is way too hot at the heatsink and the die > due to thermal resistance will be hotter. > > I'm trying to pull down one of my uV2ks and fire it up. > I pulled out NETBOT:: a 12mb uV2000 with a RD53 and booted it with the > case off to get the temp and the hotter of the two chips stabilized > at 58C +- a tiny bit while running VMS 5.4-3. Thanks! that at least tells me I'm not chasing an imaginary fault. At 82C mine is running significantly hotter than yours. I've partially convinced that the FPU is bad, but I don't have hard evidence/specs to confirm or deny this theory. Here's some of the factors which lead me to this hunch: There is some loading of the 40Mhz clock line going on (this is the one going to the CPU and FPU). With W4 removed (disconnects the 40Mhz clock at the osc, can) I measure a peak voltage of about 3.4V - with the jumper in (connected to CPU and FPU) it drops to about 2.3v ... Both chips have a CLKO line - on the CPU, this outputs a nice fat 20Mhz signal. On the FPU it outputs only about 130mv - but the technical manuals says this pin is not used on the FPU and it is a no-connect (so why label it CLKO - it's a different pinout than the CPU). This could be normal - I won't know until I get a chance to compare with another VS2000. There are a couple of no-connect pins from the FPU which show what appears to be a logic waveform at a very low level - possibly an indicator of contention somewhere within the chip, possibly normal, I don't know. The CPU is obviously running, but I have no real proof that the FPU us running other than that it passes the power-up '9' self-test. I have no idea how comprehensive this test is, and how much functionality is required to pass it. I do note that there are two series of accesses which occur during the self-test, measured on the !EPS (External Processor Select) line - this is a line running directly between the CPU and FPU which is used to communicate with the FPU. What I see are two accesses 200ns apart, then 800ns idle, followed by 13 acesses 200ns apart, followed by 1000ns. Then a long gap - I didn't measure it, but it's several ms. The second series of accesses is identical except that there are 14 accesses in the middle stretch instead of 13 (all 200ns apart). This would suggest that during the test it has at least issued a command ... But I really don't know. The extended system tests 101, 102 and 80000106 will not test the FPU - this may be normal, I don't know. The docs say they will test all hardware which is installed - this may mean that the FPU is not being full detected... I don't know. The CPU is obvously running - the FPU may or may not be, however it is directly connected to almost ALL signals in parallel with the CPU - if it were failed in a heat-generating way, it may well be loading the CPU and causing it to get hot as well - the CPU does run slightly cooler than the FPU. I think I've done about all I can do at this point - I see some suspicous signals, but without real signal diagrams, or another system to compare it to I can't confirm or deny a particular fault - I think the system is going to have to stay on the shelf until I locate another one to make comparisons with. Thanks for everyone for the great ideas and assistance. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From rollerton at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 20:46:29 2008 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 20:46:29 -0600 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803011010m3036c42cie6b20bf986dbc0ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <200803011046.m21Akccb052194@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001e01c87bb4$44d07120$6500a8c0@barry> <7d3530220803011010m3036c42cie6b20bf986dbc0ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0803011846o4ecbb427s455403c59b40a44f@mail.gmail.com> I have a Selectic II that I use now and then. Similar problem. I packed a few paper towels in there and sprayed a fair amount of good (not WD40) lubricant (LPS brand if I recall), let it soak for an hour and than wiped the insides out and removed the towels. It works great. This is not a restoration or preservation, but rather how I got a junk selectric II that I got for free to work wonderfully. Got a new ribbon at office depot too. If there was one thing I would like to do would be to have the platen turned down to level out all the pocks from years of use. On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 12:10 PM, John Floren wrote: > On 3/1/08, Barry Watzman wrote: > > I am not a selectric guru, but I have one and I think that the most > likely > > cause is that the lubricant has dried out, isn't lubricating and in > fact is > > acting like glue or adhesive. The "right" way to fix this is to have > the > > whole mechanism immersed in a bath of solvent (quite a few things have > to be > > disassembled and removed before this is done) to clean off the old > > lubricant, and then relubricated afterwards. This used to be common, > but > > there are not many places now that still do it and it's expensive > (probably > > a couple hundred dollars). I have a full IBM service manual for the > > Selectric II, which is virtually identical to your machine, but I only > have > > it in hard copy, not PDF, and it's bound. Perhaps there is a PDF copy > of > > this manual on the 'net somewhere. A guy who did the immersion > cleaning > > used to advertise his service on E-Bay, you might to a search there, or > a > > google search. > > > > > > Now, interestingly, I turned it on this morning and was able to type > fine again for > maybe 8 lines. As I typed, the carriage return speed got slower and slower > until > it would no longer reach the left margin. This leads me to believe > that there might be some sort of problem where a pulley has grease > that eventually warms up and causes it to slip, or something of that > nature. > I'll try to look for disassembly instructions online and see if I can > open it up and clean out the pulleys related to carriage return. > > John > -- > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn > From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Mar 1 21:02:35 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 22:02:35 -0500 Subject: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803012202.35594.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 01 March 2008 21:11, Dave Dunfield wrote: > The extended system tests 101, 102 and 80000106 will not test the FPU > - this may be normal, I don't know. The docs say they will test all > hardware which is installed - this may mean that the FPU is not being > full detected... I don't know. Is the FPU socketed? If so, can you remove it, and what the boot and test output looks like? I've not had my uV2000 opened up (or even turned on yet...), but that'd be my next step. If you can't remove the FPU (likely), the diagnostics would probably be complaining about it not working... Maybe if I have some time, I'll dig mine out and try playing with it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Mar 1 21:14:18 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 22:14:18 -0500 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC Message-ID: <004801c87c13$80ab6c40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> I'm curious why anyone would want a front panel with lights and switches. Except for some early IBM mainframe stuff, the number of systems that I've worked with that had no front panel vastly outnumber the ones that did. Indeed, the front panel on the MITS 8800 seemed to be a waste of good components and an anachronism at that. Better to take the costs of the panel and roll them into a good diagnostic ROM with loader. The S-100 followup machine that I used, an Integrand box, had only a reset button on the front panel. I never missed the switches. After the MITS box, I never owned another system with a blinkenlights-and- switches front panel. Just trying to understand. Cheers, Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi, I must have missed the whole "front panel on a microcomputer" thing too. I recall seeing microcomputers with front panels around but never owned one. It has always seemed to me a good boot ROM with monitor is the way to go. Vector Graphic did a good job with their Executive Monitor boot ROMs. I'd rather use a bus probe, logic probe, or VOM when I debug so it can be removed when the machine is finally working. That being said, I still think an IMSAI is a cool microcomputer and would love to get one some day. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From josefcub at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 21:21:27 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:21:27 -0600 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <004801c87c13$80ab6c40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <004801c87c13$80ab6c40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <9e2403920803011921o2b05da3cj8952d72f11e40bf2@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 9:14 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > I'm curious why anyone would want a front panel with lights and > switches. Except for some early IBM mainframe stuff, the number of > systems that I've worked with that had no front panel vastly > outnumber the ones that did. > > Indeed, the front panel on the MITS 8800 seemed to be a waste of good > components and an anachronism at that. Better to take the costs of > the panel and roll them into a good diagnostic ROM with loader. The > S-100 followup machine that I used, an Integrand box, had only a > reset button on the front panel. I never missed the switches. After > the MITS box, I never owned another system with a blinkenlights-and- > switches front panel. > > Just trying to understand. > > Cheers, > Chuck I never claimed my desire was reasonable, or even thought out. It's just one of those long standing desires, to interact with a machine as directly as possible, without a terminal or anything except some switches between me, the CPU, and the RAM. Sometimes a desire is a thoughtful one. Sometimes it predates thought. I've wanted a blinkenlighten machine since I was a very young child. I still want one enough that I'd gladly get rid of my minicomputer, my VAXstation, and any number of my other equipment to get one. Josef ...whose minicomputer doesn't even have a front panel. :( -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 1 22:51:12 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:51:12 -0800 Subject: HP-12531 C and D References: <47C8E39F.3080305@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <47CA323F.FB1D30AD@cs.ubc.ca> Tim Riker wrote: > > I have 4 HP-12531 cards. Two are have tabs labeled "HS TERMINAL" and 2 > have labels "BUF'R'D TTY REG". > > Three of cards have 307.200 Khz crystals, and one of the non-HS boards > has a 225.280 Khz crystal. > > >From what I read in: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/12531C.pdf > > and on: > > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/io12531BCD.html > > the only difference I can see between the C and the D is the crystal. > Does anyone know of another difference? I'll just add that that was the conclusion (= except for the crystal) I came to when I was working on the 12531D, based on a correlation between a physical 12531D (HST) and info in the manual for the 12531C (BUF'D TTY). If it helps any, there are usually two numbers (at least) on the HP PCBs, one in foil and one in ink, the foil number specifies the foil pattern, the ink number specifies the component population. (I also looked back at the 12531B manual, and IIRC, concluded the C&D are essentially the B with a crystal oscillator and 2 div-by-16 chips replacing the RC oscillator. I believe the B would function as a D if provided with an appropriate clock.) > Ok, here's the big one. Anyone know where to get another 307.200 Khz > crystal? :) Rather than looking for another 307 crystal, you're supposed to acquire a TTY, so you can use it at 110 baud with the 225 crystal. :) (More seriously) If necessary, there is an EXT CLK input on the connector - one could whip up a 1.8432 or 4.9152 MHz integrated crystal clock (common on scrapper '80/'90s serial boards) with another 74xx divider chip and feed it in. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 1 22:51:48 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:51:48 -0800 Subject: On interfaces, paper tape readers/punches, References: <200803012032.25372.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47CA3264.9E030368@cs.ubc.ca> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > I do indeed have a board around here someplace that I have no info on, but > it's got a row of those -- 12? -- and the outputs of them seem to be coupled > to a couple of 7400 chips. ..early DTMF decoder perhaps? (although the count should be 7 or 8 for DTMF). Alternatively, some proprietary radio signalling/control stuff used multiple tones. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 1 22:53:50 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:53:50 -0800 Subject: seven segment display history References: <47C726F6.1080406@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 28, 8 03:26:14 pm Message-ID: <47CA32DD.F6F43C94@cs.ubc.ca> Rick Bensene wrote: > > I remember that seven-segment format being used in TTL(Time To > Launch)/MET (Mission Elapsed Time) on big signs by NASA in the early to > mid-1960's. > These were BIG digits that could be read from long distances. The > segments were formed by putting together incandescent lights in rows and > columns, and a seven-segment rendition made the digits. Also, many > sports scoreboards did (and still today) use a similar seven-segment > rendition using individual incandescent lamps to form segments. It's my suspicion that stadium or horsetrack display boards were the first practical use of 7-seg displays, probably around the 1920s. I've been intending to go looking for historical photos of large long-established stadiums such as Yankee or some such, sometime. > Also, Brent mentioned the HP 9100A using a 7-segment rendition. True, > but the much earlier (1963 versus 1968) Friden 130 used a seven segment > rendition on its CRT display. Actually, it was Tony who mentioned the HP9100A; I had already mentioned the Friden 130 earlier in the thread. (And I used Rick's web site to confirm the year before I stuck my neck out!) -- (A lot of the points in this thread were mentioned on the list a year or so ago, in the AGC 7-seg display discussion.) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 1 22:54:10 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:54:10 -0800 Subject: seven segment display history References: <01C87B58.877E50C0@MSE_D03> <20080301121854.GC9265@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47CA32F2.F47AC8C1@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 04:40:02AM -0500, M H Stein wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > There is a vendor and part number etched on the face: Sperry SP-738. > > > > A little tricky to interface because of the high voltage, keep-alive > > anodes, etc. > > Yeah... I read the specs. I'm know about nixies and plain neon tubes, > etc., but I don't know anything about "keep-alive anodes". > > > I may have some of the driver chips though if you're serious. > > I would love to make this do something useful. The display was > free (I got it in a pile of parts from a friend who retired and > left the State), but I've always wanted to do something interesting > with it. Perhaps an AVR-controlled, Dallas 1-wire thermometer > display? Forgot before, Heathkit used those Sperry/Beckman displays in their 70's-era digital doodads like clocks, indoor-outdoor thermometers, weather monitors, tachs, & c., might be a place to look for schematics for examples of real-world use. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Mar 1 23:02:07 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 21:02:07 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <47C8FBCB.226DD9FC@cs.ubc.ca> <47C89F6A.2326.8A29566@cclist.sydex.com> <47C99056.30707@garlic.com> Message-ID: <47CA34CF.238CCB8E@cs.ubc.ca> As much as I like blinkenlights and rows of switches, I also have an appreciation for the 'blank monolith' or utilitarian cabinet style, for the contrast between the exterior simplicity and the complexity hidden within, imparting an element of mystery. I'm thinking of large old stuff here (perhaps like the 1401 Chuck mentioned), where you open it up and it's filled with rows and rows of little circuit boards, not a modern plain beige box where, once you open it up, you're met by another blank monolith in the form of a VLSI CPU chip. Digressing somewhat, in a fit of nostalgia my list of iconic aspects of computers would go something like: 1. blinkenlight panels 2. spinning open-reel vacuum-column tape drives 3. text in MICR font 4. punch cards 5. plugboards filled with a criss-cross maze of wires But I was a child in the 60's - those items were the popular/public face of computers in those days. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 1 23:19:02 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:19:02 -0500 Subject: On interfaces, paper tape readers/punches, In-Reply-To: <47CA3264.9E030368@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200803012032.25372.rtellason@verizon.net> <47CA3264.9E030368@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200803020019.03161.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 01 March 2008 23:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > I do indeed have a board around here someplace that I have no info on, > > but it's got a row of those -- 12? -- and the outputs of them seem to be > > coupled to a couple of 7400 chips. > > ..early DTMF decoder perhaps? I was thinking so, the input is fed through what could be a phone line transformer, not too different from what I've seen on some internal modems. > (although the count should be 7 or 8 for DTMF). I could be mis-remembering that part, too. It's been a while since I've seen it, a couple of years anyhow. > Alternatively, some proprietary radio signalling/control stuff used > multiple tones. It's a fairly populated board, for only being 4 or 5 inches square, with lots of stuff on it besides what was mentioned. I recall 2 or 3 TO-220 or TO-202 devices, a bunch of smaller transistors of assorted types, and a couple of handfuls of discrete components. It'd be nice if I knew what it came out of, then it might barely be possible to get some info on it without having to laboriously trace it out. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Sat Mar 1 23:44:19 2008 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 21:44:19 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <9e2403920802290852r704788f4wb0a016f27af14adc@mail.gmail.com>, <47C7EBEA.7318.5E56ED0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0bfc01c87c28$7604c7e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Chuck Guzis": > I'm curious why anyone would want a front panel with lights and > switches. Except for some early IBM mainframe stuff, the number of > systems that I've worked with that had no front panel vastly > outnumber the ones that did. > > Indeed, the front panel on the MITS 8800 seemed to be a waste of good > components and an anachronism at that. Better to take the costs of > the panel and roll them into a good diagnostic ROM with loader. The > S-100 followup machine that I used, an Integrand box, had only a > reset button on the front panel. I never missed the switches. After > the MITS box, I never owned another system with a blinkenlights-and- > switches front panel. > > Just trying to understand. I think of blinkenlights as way ahead of a ROM with a debugger in it, and not for just the aesthetic reasons folks are talking about. It's a little like Tony's fondness for "things he can understand". When I use a front panel, there's no question what's going on in the hardware or what's in the register. The front panel is such a simple device there is no way for it to lie to me. No way is it going to miss my breakpoint and wander into the weeds, etc. I'm not acting through an intermediary -- I really am in control of the machine, and I'm seeing the real machine state. Later, this got stretched a bit. The actual workings of an IMSAI front panel leave some potential for strange things to happen, as what going on there is a little like a debugger activated by switches. At least you can really stop the machine, etc. Some of the 7-segment front panels with the microprocessor in them are stretching the point, too. There's a lot that can go wonky in those, that will make it look like things are going on in the CPU that aren't. But the classic wall-of-switches and lights was wired into the machine directly, and couldn't lie to you if it wanted to (except for the occasional burned out incandescent bulb :-)). I do use debuggers in core, of course, but I percieve that as a trade of ease-of-use vs knowing what's really going on. Vince From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 00:25:35 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 01:25:35 -0500 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <0bfc01c87c28$7604c7e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com> <47C7EBEA.7318.5E56ED0@cclist.sydex.com> <0bfc01c87c28$7604c7e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <200803020125.35687.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 02 March 2008 00:44, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I think of blinkenlights as way ahead of a ROM with a debugger in it, > and not for just the aesthetic reasons folks are talking about. It's > a little like Tony's fondness for "things he can understand". When I > use a front panel, there's no question what's going on in the hardware > or what's in the register. The front panel is such a simple device > there is no way for it to lie to me. No way is it going to miss my > breakpoint and wander into the weeds, etc. I'm not acting through > an intermediary -- I really am in control of the machine, and I'm > seeing the real machine state. I think that's a pretty good point, there. > Later, this got stretched a bit. The actual workings of an IMSAI > front panel leave some potential for strange things to happen, as > what going on there is a little like a debugger activated by switches. > At least you can really stop the machine, etc. Which aspects of the IMSAI are you referring to here? The one I have does not have the original CPU board in it, and the front panel functions are seriously limited, as in most of it doesn't do much of anything. > Some of the 7-segment front panels with the microprocessor in them The Heath H-8 comes to mind. > are stretching the point, too. There's a lot that can go wonky in those, > that will make it look like things are going on in the CPU that aren't. Good point. Though that H8 only displayed things in octal, and I always preferred hex. Otherwise you get into silly nonsense like split octal or whatever. Too bad it wasn't as easy to get hex displays back when. > But the classic wall-of-switches and lights was wired into the machine > directly, and couldn't lie to you if it wanted to (except for the occasional > burned out incandescent bulb :-)). I can see where bi-color LEDs might come in handy here. :-) One of my first attempts at a logic probe, which I may still have someplace, was a bit of stuff on perfboard, where two transistors drove two LEDs so that with the input grounded or open the red one would be lit, and with +5 the green one, so by looking at what you had you could see the level pretty good. One more circuit detecting transitions and stretching the pulses (the yellow one of course :-) completed that half of things. I don't think the tricolor stuff that's out there now was available back when I built that. > I do use debuggers in core, of course, but I percieve that as a > trade of ease-of-use vs knowing what's really going on. It all depends on what you're trying to do. Get hardware working at all? Or something just a bit beyond that... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From slawmaster at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 01:06:08 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 02:06:08 -0500 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <2789adda0803011846o4ecbb427s455403c59b40a44f@mail.gmail.com> References: <200803011046.m21Akccb052194@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001e01c87bb4$44d07120$6500a8c0@barry> <7d3530220803011010m3036c42cie6b20bf986dbc0ae@mail.gmail.com> <2789adda0803011846o4ecbb427s455403c59b40a44f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220803012306i1b81a7ddn7c492ce7ec977a86@mail.gmail.com> On 3/1/08, Robert Ollerton wrote: > I have a Selectic II that I use now and then. Similar problem. I packed a > few paper towels in there and sprayed a fair amount of good (not WD40) > lubricant (LPS brand if I recall), let it soak for an hour and than wiped > the insides out and removed the towels. It works great. > > This is not a restoration or preservation, but rather how I got a junk > selectric II that I got for free to work wonderfully. Got a new ribbon at > office depot too. If there was one thing I would like to do would be to > have the platen turned down to level out all the pocks from years of use. > When you did this, did you remove the platen? The upper shell? The lower shell? It sounds like a quick fix that ought to be worth trying, but I want to make sure I replicate your procedure as closely as possible. Thanks John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Mar 2 01:09:29 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 07:09:29 +0000 Subject: seven segment display history In-Reply-To: <47CA32F2.F47AC8C1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <01C87B58.877E50C0@MSE_D03> <20080301121854.GC9265@usap.gov> <47CA32F2.F47AC8C1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20080302070929.GC17264@usap.gov> On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 08:54:10PM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > There is a vendor and part number etched on the face: Sperry SP-738. > > Forgot before, Heathkit used those Sperry/Beckman displays in their 70's-era > digital doodads like clocks, indoor-outdoor thermometers, weather monitors, > tachs, & c., might be a place to look for schematics for examples of real-world use. Oh, yeah. I even have one of those 6-digit Heathkit clocks. Still, the trick with those is that some of the Sperry/Beckman displays have keep- alive-anodes, and some do not. From the one link that was recently posted, it's clear that there was a large variety of displays made back in the day, and you could select a display for your requirements (especially how many primary anodes for multiplexing). In this case, I have a particular display, one of the more complex ones, looking for an application; not the other way around. Still... I'll have to go digging for some Heathkit schematics anyway. ISTR that my clock is a little funky - either the displays are wearing out, or I have something going off in the driver circuit. I _think_ the symptom was that as the clock warmed up, segments that shouldn't be lit started to fade in, then the clock went to 88:88:88. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Mar-2008 at 06:59 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.9 F (-48.3 C) Windchill -89.2 F (-67.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.5 kts Grid 13 Barometer 688.3 mb (10317 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 2 01:19:43 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 23:19:43 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <0bfc01c87c28$7604c7e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <0bfc01c87c28$7604c7e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <47C9E48F.18983.D98A854@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Mar 2008 at 21:44, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I think of blinkenlights as way ahead of a ROM with a debugger in it, > and not for just the aesthetic reasons folks are talking about. It's > a little like Tony's fondness for "things he can understand". Well, if I were debugging hardware, I'll take a logic analyzer and a scope, thank you. I'm not sure how broad the range of hardware faults is that a bunch of blinking LEDs will indicate. I'm not above using a bus card with indicators and switches on it--but the card goes as soon as the hardware gets debugged. I earned my stripes in the big-iron days. Hands-on-dedicated time on systems was hard to come by. Come in at 2AM or 3AM, in hopes of getting some work done, hang around for the 9AM status report, go home, eat supper and go to bed. A worse case happens when the closest available machine is half across the country--and you have to catch a flight to check out your system changes. It made me hate travel something awful. With hurdles like that, you tend to develop a habit of debugging your code *away* from the machine. Even when time was available, often there simply weren't any good tools. Try debugging a CDC 6600 PPU program. No lights, displays or anything else to help you. If you're patient and the CEs aren't too nosy (they don't like non-CE types going behind the skins), you can grab a scope and read the P- counter of a specific PPU--assuming that your code hasn't trashed its memory and rendered any postmortem dump you get meaningless. That isn't to say that I've never used a machine with an elaborate front panel; I just never found one to be terribly useful in the long run. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Mar 2 01:46:04 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 07:46:04 +0000 Subject: new disk controllers for DEC platforms (was Re: Q-bus to CF) In-Reply-To: <47CA0452.3040203@nktelco.net> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CA0452.3040203@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <20080302074604.GE17264@usap.gov> On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 08:35:14PM -0500, Charles H Dickman wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > > >True, but then it becomes a software rather than a hardware problem. > > > True... and I think that was his point. > > There are not many people capable of writing *new* device drivers for > PDP-11 or VAX OSs. > > Software development for a 20 year old OS is not easy. And in the case of the PDP-11, several 20-year-old OSes, or in the case of the VAX, a few old OSes, of many versions. I have an sbc6120 w/IDE interface. It's great. It's also a case of writing _a_ device driver for the most common case, OS/8. While there are a few versions of OS/8 out there, there's no compelling reason to want to write an IDE driver for, say, OS/8 v2, since there is little reason to _run_ OS/8 v2, even on real hardware. This is very much _not_ the case for newer DEC hardware. For the PDP-11, RT-11 is very popular for small systems, but does run on pretty much every -11 made, from an LSI-11 (11/03) all the way up to an 11/93. If you happen to have an 11/70, you are probably going to be running some flavor of RSTS/E or BSD UNIX, but it's not a requirement. Same goes for the other large Unibus machines - they will run RT-11, but you are probably going to have some multi-user OS on it. On real machines, I've seen the spread from RT-11 V2, V4.00, V5.X, to RSX-11 and -11/M 2.X, 3.X, 4.X, as well as nearly every version of RSTS/E from V5 up to V11 plus 2BSD in various flavors (2.9BSD and 2.11BSD being the most popular). To increase the fun and complexity, sticking merely with Unibus and Qbus VAXen, the interest is there for running VMS 1.0, VMS 3.X, VMS 4.X and VMS 5.X (I don't imagine someone is likely to run VMS 6.X on hardware with a Qbus or a Unibus, but it's not impossible). There are favorite spots in there, so it's not like you'd even try to support every single point-release of VMS, but at the very least, 3.6, 4.0, 4.5 and or 4.6, plus 5.4 or 5.5 come to mind, and there was a lot of evolution in drivers and priv mode code over that spread, especially between 4.x and 5.0 (adding SMP support with spinlocks, etc). My point is that it makes sense in the near monoculture of the PDP-8 to craft a new interface and a new driver. You can cover 90%+ of your audience with one piece of code. In the PDP-11 and VAX realm, there are so many more choices that even to hit 50% of your target audience, you'd need three drivers, let's say - RT-11 V5.3, some arbitrary version of VMS (V5.4?), and 2.11BSD. Emulating a real DEC or third-party disk controller wipes away a *lot* of software effort, concentrating the effort into one place - the microcode/firmware on the disk controller. If there are bugs, you fix them in one place, not potentially several. the behavior of most disk controllers is (was?) well known, so that any register-exact emulation failures should show up fairly quickly. When I used to run a room full of DEC equipment, we had nearly all DEC disk controllers, since we had to support about a dozen OSes based on what our customers were using. We had one VAX with RK07s that we _didn't_ upgrade, specifically because we could swap out a pair of packs, reboot, and match our customers' specific environment. Later, we did upgrade that same VAX to have a pair of RA81s (plus other disks) so that we could have two primary OSes on a largish system (VMS and Ultrix) for the same reason. Each of our PDP-11s was rigged to handle two or three OSes (some flavor of RSX-11, of RSX-11/M, and sometimes one or two flavors of RSTS/E) on two to four RL02 drives. Out of all of this variety, one machine stood out - our main company shared VAX on which we did all of our C development, word processing (MASS-11), and e-mail... it had a Fuji Eagle attached via an SI9900 - I've written about it here before - The single most difficult part of our entire machine room to deal with when it came time for upgrades. We had to wait until Systems Industries issued patch tapes to twiddle the DRDRIVER.EXE with a new geometry table. It was the real and genuine DEC driver for our OS, but we couldn't use our big disk because the driver didn't know about it. That's nowhere near as hard as a third-party disk with an entirely third-party driver. So... while a cheap and simple IDE interface might be a seductive path, given how many different OSes would have to be supported, I think it's worth a little design time to come up with something that can use the drivers that are already there on the install media for a large collection of platforms and operating systems. Obviously, older OSes might have a problem with a card that only speaks MSCP (newer ones will *love* it), but someone's suggestion for a flexible card that might be able to emulate an RL02 w/four drives (as was really done for small systems w/ST-506-type drives) or an RK611 w/multiple RK07 drives or even a third-party controller like an Emulex w/SMD or ESDI drives (hpdriver under 2BSD, for example) might be a way around both issues (OS MSCP support and the complexity of building an MSCP controller in the first place). My purely personal preferences would be to be able to run such a card under RT-11 v5.3 and newer, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD, and VAX/VMS from, say, 4.0 through 5.6, with VMS 3.6 being a bonus (since it was my first exposure to VMS). I might want to eventually run a different OS on a PDP-11 (RSX and RSTS), but I would not make a purchase based on those. I'm sure everyone else here has their own unique combinations of OS and platform priorities, but I thought I'd throw mine out there for debate. And, yes, I _would_ buy a card that fit that niche, as long as I could get it for, say $200 (even if I can only get a bare board and stuff it myself for that price). I'd be substantially less inclined at the $350 level. For that kind of money, I'd be more likely to slap an IDE interface on an old COMBOARD and start writing drivers (all COMBOARDs have DMA interfaces and 8MHz-10MHz 680x0 CPUs that could push about 200kb/sec to the bus. I have a pile of Unibus and VAXBI COMBOARDs, but only one or two Qbus). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Mar-2008 at 07:09 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.7 F (-47.6 C) Windchill -87.6 F (-66.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.5 kts Grid 11 Barometer 688.3 mb (10317 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vze323vd at verizon.net Sat Mar 1 04:47:16 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (Greg Manuel (V)) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 05:47:16 -0500 Subject: the Antikythera mechanism In-Reply-To: <20080229140407.H89160@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 5:05 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: the Antikythera mechanism > > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Greg N Shari (GMail) wrote: > > New information about the workings of the Antikythera mechanism. > > I do believe it counts as vintage enough. LOL > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/nov/30/uknews > > "NEW"?? > > "This article appeared in the Guardian on Thursday November 30 2006 on p12 > of the National news section. It was last updated at 15:26 on October 11 > 2007." > > It's still interesting. > > OOPS! Better check my dates better next time. Sorry. LOL Greg From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Mar 1 06:35:18 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 07:35:18 -0500 Subject: Qbus to CF / IDE Message-ID: <0JX100ILWX220RI9@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >>Subject: Re: Qbus to CF / IDE >> From: Doc Shipley >> Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:09:12 -0600 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> You could have, for example, four RL02s each capable of being >>>> assigned a "pack" from the card. >>> >>>> What were the biggest non-MSCP-attached drives? >>>> How hard would they be to emulate? >>> >>> >>> While RL02's would probably be easy to emulate, >>> at 10MB a pop, you don't get alot of bang for your buck. >> >> Forgive me if this is a silly question, but is 10MB a limitation of >>the firmware and drivers, or of the disk technology? > >None of the above. There is a limit of 32mb for RT11 disks because >because the sector pointer is only 16bits and sector size is 512bytes >(65536*512=32mb). > >The real problem is few people know how to write a driver and if they >do it's only for one OS and the list of OSs [UnixVn, RT11, RSTS, >RSX11, VMS, Ultrix, other?] means a driver for each. Once you have >a working driver a booter is possible. > >The RL driver cant be used as it's dependent on DMA and a simple IDE >interface will not likely include that. So the model for the driver >is more likely DD[tu58], DX [rx01], DY[rx02] or maybe some other but >with the dimension table altered as they used PIO for the transfer. > > >Allison > > >> >> Doc > >--m21CTBEw048667.1204374551/keith.ezwind.net-- From josecvalle at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 07:45:24 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (jose carlos valle) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 10:45:24 -0300 Subject: Sales brochures, price lists etc. In-Reply-To: <01C87B58.89E23160@MSE_D03> References: <01C87B58.89E23160@MSE_D03> Message-ID: Stein. Hi.. Please could send that to Brazil?? could you? to my Museum, I will save that out of trash. And that is history too. Please let me know Thank you JOse Carlos Vallr - curator of Museu do Computador. my direction: Jose carlos Valle Museu do computador Rua Roma, 75 - Itapecerica da serra - SP ZIP : CEP 068855-410 Brazil God blessing you 2008/3/1, M H Stein : > > Time to finally clean out some file cabinets; what should I do with > sales brochures, price lists, etc. from the 80s? Nothing exciting, > not very informative, but hate to just toss 'em into the recycle bin. > > > m > > -- Jos? Carlos Valle - Consultor - INOVACOMM - O evento do Ano. Museu do Computador & Futuro da Tecnologia tel:+5511-4666-7545 - cel 8609-7410 www.inovacomm.com.br www.museudocomputador.com.br Brazil From ljb007 at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 1 09:50:28 2008 From: ljb007 at sbcglobal.net (LEO BIERMANN) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 07:50:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer Message-ID: <661175.49414.qm@web82208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I have both Panasonic Hand Held Computer RLH1400 & Printer/Rom Extender RL-P1005. Both items are in a case and look in great shape. Does have 3 chips (new) along with owners manual. Some paper in printer. What is all this worth ? Will you direct me to anyone interested in purchasing all of the above ? Thank You, Leo From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Mar 1 12:38:07 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 13:38:07 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] Message-ID: <0JX200FKSEE9M6K4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:58:34 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >der Mouse wrote: >>>> Some time back (years), someone was working on an IDE interface for >>>> a Qbus MicroVAX and I was doing the driver. [...] >> >>>> We never got it working, and it is not clear to me, now, why not. >>>> [...] what memory I have indicates that there were hardware issues, >> >>> the likely reason is PDP-11 and VAX does read before write and IDE >>> does not like that. >> >> Huh? The only sense I can think of in which the PDP-1 and VAX could be >> said to do read before write is in the bus transaction sense, and >> anything that could be called "IDE" was insulated from bus FYI in the bus transaction sense is what counts as the device in this case the IDE disks sees that. The fix is simple isolate reads and writes. When I say bus I'm talking physical hardware interface not the "software" interface or other hardware abstactions. In the VAX case the Qbus or Ubus behaves the same as PDP11 even if the read is thrown away. >> transactions. While the card didn't have much smarts, it did have that >> much; it looked enough like a wdc that I did the driver as an "attach >> wdc at uba with wdc_uba" attachment layer, rather than a completely new >> driver. I find I still have my copy of the dev directory, including a >> boot-time console log: Doesnt need smarts. It only has to look like an SL! you have a series of about 8 registers, some read, some write and some are read/write for example the data register. Any incidental reads or writes to the data register during a transfer is unexpected and messes with the IDE (DISK) internal smarts. So the logic has to make that bunch or registers look like distinct read and write addresses that do not overlap. Thats why the serial line interfaces for U and Q buses need 4 addresses, Control write, Data write, Status read and Data read. >Well if my SBC6120 ( PDP 8 Clone) can have a IDE interface >why not some other PDP. We are not looking for high speed >just hardware in this case. Right, however it has to be done right or it doesn't work. Bob understands that designed accordingly. The read before write problem is important to status and data registers becuase if you touch them at the wrong time (like an incidental read when you mena to write) the devices internal logic is slightly messed up. The fix and even DEC does things for DL devices (and others) is that the write is gated to one set of addresses and the read is to another. Adds a little logic but nothing complex. Allison From jefferwin at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 13:37:48 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 11:37:48 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips Message-ID: <7c7c96a50803011137i1762cfd3tbf967822b9ae0527@mail.gmail.com> > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:31:26 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Source for TTL chips > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <47C8A3DE.23896.8B3FACB at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 1 Mar 2008 at 1:35, Michael Lee wrote: > > > For small amounts I use Jameco Electronics... > > Where does one go to find the not-very-common TTL? e.g., the 7497 > rate multiplier; the 74199 8-bit register, etc. TI had some pretty > estoteric circuits also--74LS362, 74LS444, 74S485, 74S481... > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > I have the same issue. I need three obsolete chips from National Semi, DM 8131, DM 8836 and DM 8837. I have scoured the internet with no luck. I do have a board with these chips in it, I may have to resort to desoldering them. I just hate doing that, it tends to ruin the source board. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Mar 2 04:54:28 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 11:54:28 +0100 Subject: SGI A/V Module question In-Reply-To: <200803010102.m21122wR040086@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803010102.m21122wR040086@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20080302105428.120960@gmx.net> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > It sounds like you have the audio only A/V modules. This is what I have > in both of my SGI O2's. :^( Hmm, the video connectors and all the major components are in place, and the board has the number 030-0728-004 on it - Gerhard Lenerz's SGIstuff page says this is an O2 Audio/Video Board (Audio only module would be 030-1145-XXX). Hinv however only detects the board as "Audio: A3 version 1" so the video circuitry must have been disabled somehow. Perhaps there's something to be done about it: There are a few open resistor lands next to the edge connector (R503, R504, R505; R510, R511, R513, R514) and along the lower edge of the board (R556, R557, R558; R569, R573, R575, R576; R587, R593) and three SMD inductors (L512, L513, L514) missing on the solder side. So long, Arno Kletzander -- Arno Kletzander Student Assistant // Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 05:14:01 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 22:14:01 +1100 Subject: WaveMate Bullet References: <002701c87bff$3bce4570$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <013001c87c56$860b0540$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Lynch To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 11:49 AM Subject: WaveMate Bullet > My first reaction is to start another Yahoo! Group but I know a lot of > people here absolutely hate those so I thought I'd poll the list to see if > anyone could suggest a more palatable alternative. My requirements are > simple; just a small amount of file storage, a simple web interface, and a > mailing list. Hi Andrew, Contact me off list, I can probably assist. Lance From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 2 05:41:43 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 05:41:43 -0600 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50803011137i1762cfd3tbf967822b9ae0527@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50803011137i1762cfd3tbf967822b9ae0527@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CA9277.4080602@mdrconsult.com> Jeff Erwin wrote: > I have the same issue. I need three obsolete chips from National Semi, DM > 8131, DM 8836 and DM 8837. I have scoured the internet with no luck. > > I do have a board with these chips in it, I may have to resort to > desoldering them. I just hate doing that, it tends to ruin the source board. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, MC Howard in Austin, Texas has been my source for everything from 74-series chips to 64-pin wirewrap sockets to RAM for my HP-9000. I basically populated my SBC6120 off their shelves, and the homebrew 6809 project I'm working on was provisioned there too. The prices on their website are insane, but I've never heard of them actually charging what's listed. Call the toll-free number or email them and get a quote. They ship internationally. 1-800-490-6896 mchoward at prismnet.com Not affiliated, satisfied customer for over 10 years, mumble mumble etc. I know a couple of other listfolk have dealt with them too. Doc From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Mar 2 06:11:41 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:11:41 +0000 Subject: Speaking of PPT (was: Re: Friden Flexowriter) In-Reply-To: <200802280816.m1S8G2r7083354@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200802280816.m1S8G2r7083354@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 28 Feb, 2008, at 08:16, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 25 > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:38:42 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Speaking of PPT (was: Re: Friden Flexowriter) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <47C5F482.14707.21D48412 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 28 Feb 2008 at 7:49, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > >> The latest HP papertape reader I sold on Ebay fetched all of 5 >> Euros...... > > I know that PPT readers can really zip right along, but what's the > fastest perforator ever made? Laser-driven, maybe? Catching up on old messages. The manuals for my ICT 1301 refer to the standard paper tape punch, and it ran at 300 characters per second and had a check reading station to verify every character punched before winding the tape onto a reel. Unfortunately I don't have one of them but my 1301 does still have one (of two) of the Elliott tape readers which runs at 1000 characters per second and which have a tape un-roller to prevent any drag on the reader itself. At 1000cps, the tape comes out almost horizontal from the reader and a bin has to be positioned correctly to catch it. Even at full speed, the reader can stop on character unlike the earlier Elliott tape readers, which was why when I worked for Marconi-Elliott Avionics, all text tapes were punched with four null characters after every line termination (ASCII CR-LF or Flexowriter newline). Binary tapes were expected to be read all in one go without stopping. My own Flexowriters have round military style Cannon plugs for I/O and use 110v signal levels designed for relay logic. A previous owner of my 1301 has grafted on a large Vero board full of discrete components, TTL and relays to drive one of the Flexowriters for output, and an old ICT keypunch keyboard for input as well as a smaller board to output to a Teletype BRPE (100 cps) paper tape punch. The non standard online Flexowriter and keyboard are currently disconnected and I control the 1301 the same way as 99% of 1301s were controlled via the control panel, which is, I estimate, 4 feet wide by 2.5 feet high. Most programs are small and I key them in through the front panel as I can't find anyone to repair my IBM keypunch. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 2 08:35:46 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 09:35:46 -0500 Subject: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? In-Reply-To: <200803012202.35594.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: Message-ID: > > The extended system tests 101, 102 and 80000106 will not test the FPU > > - this may be normal, I don't know. The docs say they will test all > > hardware which is installed - this may mean that the FPU is not being > > full detected... I don't know. > > Is the FPU socketed? If so, can you remove it, and what the boot and > test output looks like? Aw, I wish ... the only things socketed on this board are the ROMs and the serial device. The CPU/FPU are 68 pin surface mount devices. > If you can't remove the FPU (likely), the diagnostics would probably be > complaining about it not working... Which is the main reason I'm not 100% convinced the FPU is faulty. But I can't get the extended disgnostics to test it, and I don't know how "good" it has to be to pass the basic startup test. > I've not had my uV2000 opened up (or even turned on yet...), but that'd > be my next step. > > Maybe if I have some time, I'll dig mine out and try playing with it. If you do open it up and have it to the point where you can scope signals, please contact me ... I've got a few questions about the signals I see in mine. I've also got a couple of questions about the diagnostics and the FPU that could be answered with a running system (only the console ROM required). If anyone has a running VS2000 or UV2000 and is willing to open it up to help me do some comparison testing, here are the things I would most like to know: [For best results, it would be good if the system were configured to match mine - all expansion boards, drives, peripherals etc. disconnected, and the uVAX/VS jumper located about 3" directly behind the BNC ethernet connector set to the uVAX position, which is AWAY from the BNC connector.] [To run the extended diagnostics 101, 102 and 80000106 you need a DB-25-F connector installed (on the DB-25-M connector on the board) with pins 12 and 18 connected together] a) Whats tests are run by the "T 101" command? Mine runs: C, B, 7, 6 b) If you run "T 80000106" and then enter '9' at the "? >>>" prompt, do you get any test output other than the CPU designation title? [For the following, I would like a description of the waveforms observed, waveshape, amplitude and frequency where appropriate] c) The 40Mhz clock at the W4 jumper (right beside the 40Mhz oscillator "can") - with the jumper installed? I see 40Mhz sine wave, about 2.3v p-p d) The 40Mhz clock at the W4 jumper pin closest to the oscillator "can" with the jumper removed? I see 40Mhz sine wave about 3.4v p-p e) Pins on FPU 44 - I see about 160mv irregular square wave 59 - Same as above 15 - I see 40Mhz at about 160mv Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Sun Mar 2 09:04:49 2008 From: Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com (Brennan Mark) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 15:04:49 -0000 Subject: Selling off large literature collection In-Reply-To: <009a01c87bca$0a423320$6701a8c0@Mike> References: <009a01c87bca$0a423320$6701a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <299EB6FC242FCF47AA4118ED9365BF94BF1DDF@EUROPEV004.europe.fs.fujitsu.com> Hi Michael, I would like to add Tandem/Sequent/Pyramid/Wang and tricord to the list of interested items Again many thanks mark ________________________________________________________________________ ________________ Mark Brennan, System Engineer, Fujitsu Services, Airside Business Park, Swords, County Dublin, Ireland Mobile: +353-87-222-2326 Telephone: +353-1-813 6000 Facsimile: +353-1-813 6600 email: mark.brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Web: ie.fujitsu.com This e-mail is only for the use of its intended recipient. Its contents are subject to a duty of confidence and may be privileged. Fujitsu Services does not guarantee that this e-mail has not been intercepted and amended or that it is virus-free. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau Sent: 01 March 2008 18:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Selling off large literature collection After a lot of thought, I've decided to sell off my collection of computer literature. This collection consists of presskits, brochures, photos, catalogs, and other items. Much of this collection came from my years as an editor for publications such as BYTE and 80 Micro. The age ranges from the early 1970s through the 1990s, and includes everything from PDAs, micros, portables, minis, and mainframes. It also includes material on software, peripherals, online services, and misc. related paraphernalia. If you have my book, Collectible Microcomputers, most of the images in it were scanned from this material. My plan is to sell it off piece by piece, and I'm giving list members first dibs. Pricing will be reasonable, below eBay rates. I do have a few rare items that I will need to get more for. I do not have a list, but it's filed in a somewhat orderly fashion. If you send me your want list offline, I can get back to you quickly. I'm also traveling frequently through early May, which might slow my responses. There is a catch. The reason I'm selling is that I'm going digital--it's a lot easier to manage everything that way. I plan to scan the items as I sell them. If you want a lot of items, it may take a little time for me to scan them. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 2 09:18:56 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 07:18:56 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <9e2403920803011921o2b05da3cj8952d72f11e40bf2@mail.gmail.com> References: <004801c87c13$80ab6c40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <9e2403920803011921o2b05da3cj8952d72f11e40bf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi If one has a machine that doesn't have ROM and doesn't have a nice defined bus spec, having a front panel with a way to toggle in some minimal code is the way to go. It really wasn't until the creation of the EPROM that it was practical to develop a ROM based machine. The cost of a mask ROM was expensive to develop. The IMSAI and Altair were created just after Intel created the floating gate EPROM. It was a step the lead to the end of the front panel. I consider the EPROM to be more significant to computing than the 4004 was. Others were on the way to creating their own uP's. It was the EPROM that lowered the development cost making even the shoe string shops able to create products. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From bob at jfcl.com Sun Mar 2 09:18:51 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 07:18:51 -0800 Subject: new disk controllers for DEC platforms (was Re: Q-bus to CF) In-Reply-To: <20080302074604.GE17264@usap.gov> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CA0452.3040203@nktelco.net> <20080302074604.GE17264@usap.gov> Message-ID: <003801c87c78$b8c3f970$2a4bec50$@com> > Ethan Dicks (ethan.dicks at usap.gov) wrote: > >>On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 08:35:14PM -0500, Charles H Dickman wrote: >>... >> Software development for a 20 year old OS is not easy. > >And in the case of the PDP-11, several 20-year-old OSes, or in the case >of the VAX, a few old OSes, of many versions. All true, although it might not be as bad as it sounds. There are a lot of people on this list, and some of them used old DEC computers and operating systems. Some of them might already know how to write a driver for one of these OSes - get a group of them together and you'll have all the old OSes covered. And it is fairly well documented how to write device drivers for at least RT, RSX and VMS. And the first thing you should do is hack up simh to include emulation of your proposed new "RQATA" interface card; then you could start writing drivers before the hardware was even done, and simh is a great tool for debugging the driver software. If you actually had a group of motivated (i.e. they were getting paid for it :-) people together it would not be that hard. OTOH, the SBC6120 was sort of my experiment in open source old computer development. I always hoped people would expand and add to it, both in hardware and software, but for the most part that never really happened. Most people wanted to buy a turnkey system that they could plug in, turn on, and start using it - people seem to have jobs, families and real lives and just don't have the time to do a lot of development. Bob From rollerton at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 09:54:49 2008 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 09:54:49 -0600 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803012306i1b81a7ddn7c492ce7ec977a86@mail.gmail.com> References: <200803011046.m21Akccb052194@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001e01c87bb4$44d07120$6500a8c0@barry> <7d3530220803011010m3036c42cie6b20bf986dbc0ae@mail.gmail.com> <2789adda0803011846o4ecbb427s455403c59b40a44f@mail.gmail.com> <7d3530220803012306i1b81a7ddn7c492ce7ec977a86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0803020754q2c7ca2d5k7fab45fa54c97b4b@mail.gmail.com> I really did not get too fancy; I did pull the platen out and wiped it down with Naphtha (mild solvent) to get some of the ink off, and then a wash in 409 cleaner and hot water. Otherwise I used the spray can and its tube to direct the spray on to the parts that move. I made sure to wash down the rod that the carriage slides on. It had a lot of gunk on it and dried grease looking stuff. The spray softened it and I could wipe if off with towels. Gently sliding the carriage back and forth to clear the gunk under and inside its bushings, bit more spray and wipe. Other things to look for are dried grease and gunk (dead skin, dust, hair, donut sprinkles...) on the cable pulleys and the cable. I washed these with spray and used a couple of disposable 1" foam paint brushes to swab off the cable and other parts. Give the gears a spray too. Also take the type ball off and spray and wipe the top of the carriage as there are moving parts here that also had gunk and dried lube looking stuff. There is a cable in here that rotates the type ball, I wiped around in there and gave it a good spray. I would suggest something like LPS-2, something that will dissolve the old grease and gunk but also leave a lubricating film that wont flash off. WD40 will dissolve the gunk but its lubrication will flash off in a week or so. I found that the odor of the lube spray went away in a few days. I like to use the Blue shop paper towels you can get at places that sell paint. ( Lowes, HD). And, I am tempted to take a small paint brush (artists) and dab a bit of white grease on the gears and high movement areas but havent done that so far. Just use common sense. Do this where you have ventilation, unplug the Selectric (!), make sure to wipe off any overspray or drips from the finish with a 409 like cleaner after you are done. I am wondering how many different colors the Selectrics came in. Mine is tan. And also if there are any font balls still available. Best of luck with your project. bob. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 1:06 AM, John Floren wrote: > On 3/1/08, Robert Ollerton wrote: > > I have a Selectic II that I use now and then. Similar problem. I > packed a > > few paper towels in there and sprayed a fair amount of good (not WD40) > > lubricant (LPS brand if I recall), let it soak for an hour and than > wiped > > the insides out and removed the towels. It works great. > > > > This is not a restoration or preservation, but rather how I got a junk > > selectric II that I got for free to work wonderfully. Got a new ribbon > at > > office depot too. If there was one thing I would like to do would be > to > > have the platen turned down to level out all the pocks from years of > use. > > > > When you did this, did you remove the platen? The upper shell? The > lower shell? It sounds like a quick fix that ought to be worth trying, > but I want to make sure I replicate your procedure as closely as > possible. > Thanks > > John > -- > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn > From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 10:06:37 2008 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 08:06:37 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <0bfc01c87c28$7604c7e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <47C9E48F.18983.D98A854@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0c4a01c87c7f$6602ced0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 1 Mar 2008 at 21:44, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> I think of blinkenlights as way ahead of a ROM with a debugger in it, >> and not for just the aesthetic reasons folks are talking about. It's >> a little like Tony's fondness for "things he can understand". > > Well, if I were debugging hardware, I'll take a logic analyzer and a > scope, thank you. I'm not sure how broad the range of hardware > faults is that a bunch of blinking LEDs will indicate. I'm not above > using a bus card with indicators and switches on it--but the card > goes as soon as the hardware gets debugged. I'm not talking about debugging hardware. I'm not really very good at that, so wouldn't presume to tell you which tools to use :-). We always assumed our machines were in good repair, and that the hardware was essentially perfect. (Our PDP-8's never contradicted us, either :-).) What I am saying is that, when debugging software, it is useful to be really sure about what is happening, an the front panels gave that reassurance, in a way that debuggers and emulators just don't. Since debuggers and emulators crash or malfunction, they don't mimic the underlying hardware perfectly, whereas the front panels gave visibility into the real thing. > I earned my stripes in the big-iron days. Hands-on-dedicated time on > systems was hard to come by. Come in at 2AM or 3AM, in hopes of > getting some work done, hang around for the 9AM status report, go > home, eat supper and go to bed. A worse case happens when the > closest available machine is half across the country--and you have to > catch a flight to check out your system changes. It made me hate > travel something awful. Sure. > With hurdles like that, you tend to develop a habit of debugging your > code *away* from the machine. Even when time was available, often > there simply weren't any good tools. Try debugging a CDC 6600 PPU > program. No lights, displays or anything else to help you. If > you're patient and the CEs aren't too nosy (they don't like non-CE > types going behind the skins), you can grab a scope and read the P- > counter of a specific PPU--assuming that your code hasn't trashed its > memory and rendered any postmortem dump you get meaningless. The fact that you ever had to grap a 'scope and read the P-counter seems to support my argument for real lights, not refute it :-). > That isn't to say that I've never used a machine with an elaborate > front panel; I just never found one to be terribly useful in the long > run. I don't claim they are useful in the long run. They are useful in certain difficult debug situations, similar to what is done nowdays with ICE. Vince From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Mar 2 10:16:19 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 16:16:19 +0000 Subject: new disk controllers for DEC platforms (was Re: Q-bus to CF) In-Reply-To: <003801c87c78$b8c3f970$2a4bec50$@com> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CA0452.3040203@nktelco.net> <20080302074604.GE17264@usap.gov> <003801c87c78$b8c3f970$2a4bec50$@com> Message-ID: <20080302161619.GB5661@usap.gov> On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 07:18:51AM -0800, Bob Armstrong wrote: > > Ethan Dicks (ethan.dicks at usap.gov) wrote: > > > >>On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 08:35:14PM -0500, Charles H Dickman wrote: > >>... > >> Software development for a 20 year old OS is not easy. > > > >And in the case of the PDP-11, several 20-year-old OSes, or in the case > >of the VAX, a few old OSes, of many versions. > > All true, although it might not be as bad as it sounds. There are a lot > of people on this list, and some of them used old DEC computers and > operating systems. Some of them might already know how to write a driver > for one of these OSes - get a group of them together and you'll have all the > old OSes covered. True, but there are a lot of dusty neurons to polish before much progress could be made. I haven't written a device driver for DEC hardware in over 15 years (I've worked on Ultrix, and VMS 4.x and VMS 5.x, myself). > ... the first thing you should do is > hack up simh to include emulation of your proposed new "RQATA" interface > card; then you could start writing drivers before the hardware was even > done, and simh is a great tool for debugging the driver software. That's an excellent suggestion (and I say that having helped Bob Supnik debug one of _his_ drivers long ago). > OTOH, the SBC6120 was sort of my experiment in open source old computer > development. I always hoped people would expand and add to it, both in > hardware and software, but for the most part that never really happened. > Most people wanted to buy a turnkey system that they could plug in, turn on, > and start using it - people seem to have jobs, families and real lives and > just don't have the time to do a lot of development. >From my own standpoint, especially since I have an IOB6120 and FP6120, it does pretty much everything I'd want it to do. About the only feature I can think of off the top of my head would be to jimmy the IOB6120 FPGA firmware to be able to talk to a real RX01/RX02 hanging off of the I/O pins (with suitable line drivers/receivers, of course). I'd probably only want that to be able to image disks, anyway, though. Out of the box, the SBC6120 boots up OS/8 and that works for most of what I'd do with a "real" PDP-8 anyway - boot it up, play a few games, and marvel at what's going on under the hood. In terms of software dev, folks can just as easily fire up simh and work on software there. I always thought the appeal of the SBC6120 was to have a real 12-bit machine in ones hands, not the developement aspect of it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Mar-2008 at 15:49 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -52.8 F (-47.1 C) Windchill -87.4 F (-66.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.4 kts Grid 12 Barometer 685.9 mb (10406 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 10:22:00 2008 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 08:22:00 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com><47C7EBEA.7318.5E56ED0@cclist.sydex.com><0bfc01c87c28$7604c7e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <200803020125.35687.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0c4e01c87c81$8b3fd1a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Roy J. Tellason": > On Sunday 02 March 2008 00:44, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> I think of blinkenlights as way ahead of a ROM with a debugger in it, >> and not for just the aesthetic reasons folks are talking about. It's >> a little like Tony's fondness for "things he can understand". When I >> use a front panel, there's no question what's going on in the hardware >> or what's in the register. The front panel is such a simple device >> there is no way for it to lie to me. No way is it going to miss my >> breakpoint and wander into the weeds, etc. I'm not acting through >> an intermediary -- I really am in control of the machine, and I'm >> seeing the real machine state. > > I think that's a pretty good point, there. Thanks :-). >> Later, this got stretched a bit. The actual workings of an IMSAI >> front panel leave some potential for strange things to happen, as >> what going on there is a little like a debugger activated by switches. >> At least you can really stop the machine, etc. > > Which aspects of the IMSAI are you referring to here? The one I have > does not > have the original CPU board in it, and the front panel functions are > seriously limited, as in most of it doesn't do much of anything. I'm speaking from memory, so I may have the details wrong, but what I remember is that the way the front panel works, is that the "Examine" key works (for example) is that it forces a "JMP xxxx" onto the CPU bus, then returns the CPU to the halted state, ready to fetch the new location. Of course, this only works if the CPU understands an 8080 JMP instruction, etc. My understanding is that other front panel functions were implemented by this sort of strategic lying to the CPU. That makes it a different beast than the front panels of old :-). >> I do use debuggers in core, of course, but I percieve that as a >> trade of ease-of-use vs knowing what's really going on. > > It all depends on what you're trying to do. Get hardware working > at all? Or something just a bit beyond that... Generally, I'm assuming working hardware, but want to see how the software went wrong. But whatever software I'm running is interacting with the hardware (device drivers or the sort of low level programs we wrote back then). Remember that those old machines didn't have a debugged operating system under them, with a virtualization or protection layer to catch them when they crashed and save their memory and registers. Most of the programs ran stand-alone and directly controlled relevant hardware resources. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 2 10:23:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 08:23:29 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: References: <004801c87c13$80ab6c40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop>, <9e2403920803011921o2b05da3cj8952d72f11e40bf2@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <47CA6401.24789.F8A7A2C@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Mar 2008 at 7:18, dwight elvey wrote: > The cost of a mask ROM was expensive to develop. > The IMSAI and Altair were created just after Intel created the floating > gate EPROM. It was a step the lead to the end of the front panel. > I consider the EPROM to be more significant to computing than the > 4004 was. Others were on the way to creating their own uP's. It > was the EPROM that lowered the development cost making even the > shoe string shops able to create products. EPROM dates from 1971, before the 8080. Even then, the bipolar PROM was around (PROM dates from 1956, albeit not as an IC). Indeed, my first front-panel substitute 8080 system used bipolar TTL PROM and not an UV EPROM. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 2 10:50:52 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 08:50:52 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <0c4a01c87c7f$6602ced0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <0c4a01c87c7f$6602ced0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <47CA6A6C.13275.FA38EDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Mar 2008 at 8:06, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > The fact that you ever had to grap a 'scope and read the P-counter > seems to support my argument for real lights, not refute it :-). Nope--If I count the number of times I'd had to do that, I'd have fingers left over. Those few times would never have justified the cost of a dedicated front panel. I'm not even sure that the times I did resort to the scope provided any useful information; mostly it was an act of desperation. The front-panel thing seems to have been a cultural phenomenon. Seymour Cray put a nice front panel/console on the 1604, but it was gone by the time of the 6600. IBM seemed to be reluctant to get rid of them, but I wonder how many programmers actually had access to, or could effectively use the front panel on a midrange S/370 to debug their code. I suspect the argument about the front panel on the IMSAI and MITS boxes being part of the sales appeal holds quite a bit of merit. But it represented a lot of componentry. IMOHO, the most useful LED on the MITS front panel was the interrupts-enabled indicator (in a time when most 8080 code for the box made no use of interrupts at all). One could use it as a one-bit I/O port. My first experiments with microprocessor music used it quite a bit for audio output. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 2 10:52:28 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 11:52:28 -0500 Subject: board scan, design reconstruction (was IMSAI) In-Reply-To: References: <004d01c87b39$684a6f00$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <0e6998cc32bff36a038939fbb8478c52@neurotica.com> On Mar 1, 2008, at 10:39 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> How about a PCI floppy controller board? Maybe with some supplementary >> logic to allow raw track reads? Possibly a BIOS to boot from? An >> external >> floppy drive connector? >> >> Just wondering how complicated such a thing would be. Thanks! > > It would be relatively easy if you did most of the work in a DSP chip. > For the floppy end, you need a parallel port to read status and > write controls. > For reading raw data, a 7474 flipflop, an adjustable clock > and a DSP chip, such as a ADSP2118 or similar. > Then you'd need a bus interface to the PCI bus. Why not just build that bus interface and put a floppy controller chip (WD2797, 765, etc) on the other side of it? I suppose the DSP chip would give you much greater flexibility in terms of being able to download new code into it to support different formats (even different types of modulation), but it's much more complex. Hmm. Now that I think about it, a DSP-based floppy controller would be amazingly flexible. Wow.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Mar 2 12:03:27 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:03:27 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <47CA6A6C.13275.FA38EDA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7d3530220802280933i78ee04ffqdf4aa8c932cd85b8@mail.gmail.com>, <0c4a01c87c7f$6602ced0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <47CA6A6C.13275.FA38EDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47CAEBEF.6060702@mainecoon.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The front-panel thing seems to have been a cultural phenomenon. I suspect it has more to do with technology price-point. I couldn't have build an operating system for an unmapped Nova in 1974/5 without one; "program load" was an uncommon option on earlier versions of the later 800/1200 family and even then required the switch register in order to get the device code to use. Bigger iron had the option of dedicated supervisory processors, but I doubt that the "affordable" (i.e., low five figures) minicomputers of the early-to-mid 70s could have really managed that trick without breaking the bank. In my experience the front panel was also critical for figuring out what new and novel way the machine had broken. MTBF was measured in months, and while a machine might have been too sick to load diagnostics it's surprising how much could be learned by poking at it through the front panel with a scope handy. This proved true even in somewhat extreme cases, like the early S/200 with interleaved core in a memory expansion chassis that tended to fail pretty much any time the metal door to the machine room was opened or the 800 that we had to repair ourselves after the company with the maintenance contract refused to touch it (a current loop TTY with a hot chassis had worn through its data cable, dumped line voltage onto the loop, nuked the current loop/EIA converter, the mux, part of the bus interface on every board in the chassis and a chunk of both CPU1 and CPU2). -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 2 11:42:45 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:42:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-12531 C and D In-Reply-To: <47CA323F.FB1D30AD@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 1, 8 08:51:12 pm Message-ID: > If it helps any, there are usually two numbers (at least) on the HP PCBs, one > in foil and one in ink, the foil number specifies the foil pattern, the ink > number specifies the component population. I've also seen HP PCBs with an official lable stuck over the etched part number to specifiy different compoenns fitted. A classic example of this would be the microcode board in an HP9100. This is the board with the core-on-a-rope ROM on it, it's the same PCB in a -A and a -B, but different ROM 'programming'. The etched number is for the 'A version, the board in every -B machine I've seen ahs a label stuck over it. Or a PCB used for a ROM modele, the srtuck-on label depending on which ROMs are soldered to the PCB. Mind you, sometimes there are different PCBs that differ only in the etched part number (!). The ROM boards in a 9810 and 8820 (2 boards in the latter) are the same electically. They're the same connections to the edge fingers, they take the same type of chips (8 HP custom ROMs) and have the same tack layout. The only differece between the 3 boards is the etched part number, and etched numbers saying what ROMs go where and what chip select line drives them . -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 2 11:54:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:54:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dekatron article Message-ID: For those who've not seen it yet... In this month's Elektor magazine (or at least in the UK edition of it), there's a 2-page 'Retrotronics' article giving a design for a Dekatron counter driving a nixie tube with 6J6 (ECC91) triodes as buffers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 2 11:35:31 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:35:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: On interfaces, paper tape readers/punches, In-Reply-To: <200803012032.25372.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Mar 1, 8 08:32:25 pm Message-ID: > I do indeed have a board around here someplace that I have no info on, b= > ut=20 > it's got a row of those -- 12? -- and the outputs of them seem to be coup= I assume 'those' means HE567s > led=20 > to a couple of 7400 chips. Had it been 7 or 8, I'd have guessed they were set to the row and column tones for a standard teletphone DTMF keypad, and that the logic combined them to produce a separate output for each key. With 12, it _might_ be a selective calling decoder from a private radio system, or soemthing like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 2 12:01:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 18:01:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More on my CDC (MPI) floppy drive Message-ID: Yo umay rememebr my recent posting aasking for information on the damper assembly on the head carriage of a full-height 5.25" MPI floppy drive. I've done a little more work on it. Firstly, it appears the damper ron was glued ot the head carriage. Since this makes it very hard to work on (fitting the tension abnd is difficult at the best of times!), I cleaned out the holes, and drilled (1.6mm) and tapped (M2) an extra hole in each of the plasic rackets that hold this rod, 0.2" away from the existikng hole. I then screwed little rass plates in place to keep the rod in. Secondly, I've assembled (but not aligned) the positioned. Fittlng the tensio band ais a pain, I now think that little O-ring I found on one of the pins is an assembly aid to keep the tension band on that pin when you're trying to fit the other end in place. I will order some more O-rings (the pins are 1.5mm diameter, BTW) and see how I get on. Thirdly, I've had the positioner running on a disk exerciser. WIth a 6ms step rate (which seems about right), it sounds _much_ rougher with the damer wheight not fitted. Even without any grease (other than that I've not managed to clean out) on the assembly, fitting the weight makes it a lot smoother. Fourthly, I _still_ can't see how the grease is kept in place, and why it doesn't just leak all over everthing. -tony From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Mar 2 14:02:38 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 15:02:38 -0500 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <200803021758.m22Hwelu082905@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001b01c87ca0$5daf24b0$6500a8c0@barry> Re: On 3/1/08, Robert Ollerton wrote: > I have a Selectic II that I use now and then. Similar problem. I packed > a few paper towels in there and sprayed a fair amount of good (not WD40) > lubricant (LPS brand if I recall), let it soak for an hour and than wiped > the insides out and removed the towels. It works great. > When you did this, did you remove the platen? The upper shell? The lower shell?" **** It is VERY easy to remove the platen, and to remove the entire mechanism from both the upper and lower case. It can be done in about 20 seconds. From slawmaster at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 14:35:10 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 15:35:10 -0500 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <001b01c87ca0$5daf24b0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <200803021758.m22Hwelu082905@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001b01c87ca0$5daf24b0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <7d3530220803021235k72187e7alf193282fa708ebe4@mail.gmail.com> On 3/2/08, Barry Watzman wrote: > > Re: > > On 3/1/08, Robert Ollerton wrote: > > I have a Selectic II that I use now and then. Similar problem. I packed > > a few paper towels in there and sprayed a fair amount of good (not WD40) > > lubricant (LPS brand if I recall), let it soak for an hour and than wiped > > the insides out and removed the towels. It works great. > > > > When you did this, did you remove the platen? The upper shell? The > lower shell?" > > **** > > It is VERY easy to remove the platen, and to remove the entire mechanism > from both the upper and lower case. It can be done in about 20 seconds. > Yes, I've found how easy it is to remove the platen, and the rest of the case comes off pretty easily *if* I'm not averse to getting grease and what seems to be gunky old black glue all over my hands. Thanks! John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Mar 2 14:52:04 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 20:52:04 +0000 Subject: On interfaces, paper tape readers/punches, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47CB1374.8000603@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh, if that's the case, I would agree. I understood the original > suggestion was to implement the tone detection in firmware in the > microcontroller...a perfectly valid approach. The nifty thing about doing FSK demod with a microcontroller (especially something like a dsPIC) is that you can do things like tracking the frequency so tape speed has little effect on the decoding, and maybe some denoising to get rid of the cack in the filter zone. Could be an interesting project... maybe. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From FJGJR1 at aol.com Sun Mar 2 14:53:24 2008 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 15:53:24 EST Subject: JDR ? Re: Source for TTL chips Message-ID: Hi! I am jumping into this thread late, but has anyone checked JDR in CA? I see that they still have many of these 74xxx series chips. I am interested to tell people about them that buy the 6 Kaypro "8" 's [upgraded / modified Kaypro 4's 1983's] I will be selling on eBay in May / June. Prices are cheap - $0.25 up to a few dollars for Z80's etc. I even became a "commercial customer" with associated small discounts in the 1900's - not good for the bank account howerver!. Many of the others suppliers have gone out of business naturally from that era. I was pleasantly surprised they still supply these so inexpensively.. Just a thought in case it is useful and some did not know about JDR. Frank In a message dated 3/1/2008 8:33:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rtellason at verizon.net writes: On Friday 29 February 2008 16:37, Grant Stockly wrote: > DigiKey or Unicorn Electronics. > > Both want $25 on the order or a handling fee applies. > > Grant > > At 09:03 AM 2/29/2008, you wrote: > >It used to be you could go to Radio Shack and pick up a couple of 74ls02 > >chips as needed. Now it seems there isn?t a source for someone who wants > > to purchase a handful of 74xx ttl chips. I must've missed this the first time around, or it's lower down in the stack... > > I have a ?brand new? s100 SIO card that is just missing the 14 logic chips > > to go in the sockets, but I am not finding a convenient source for them. > > > >Anyone know where I can go to find them in very small quantities? Have a look here: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/w4s.html and use your browser's search function (usually ctrl-F) to find "TTL". That's only the stuff I have a lot of, I have somewhat lesser quantities of other numbers too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 15:03:15 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:03:15 -0500 Subject: On interfaces, paper tape readers/punches, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803021603.16083.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 02 March 2008 12:35, Tony Duell wrote: > > I do indeed have a board around here someplace that I have no info on, > > b= ut=20 > > it's got a row of those -- 12? -- and the outputs of them seem to be > > coup= > > I assume 'those' means HE567s Some kind of 567, anyhow. > > led=20 > > to a couple of 7400 chips. > > Had it been 7 or 8, I'd have guessed they were set to the row and column > tones for a standard teletphone DTMF keypad, and that the logic combined > them to produce a separate output for each key. As I posted earlier, I may have mis-remembered how many of them there were, it having been at least a couple of years since I've seen that board. The tone decoders and gates wouldn't be too much trouble to trace out, but then there's all that stuff on the rest of the board, with no easy pattern to it, and bunches of points tying to the card-edge connector. Is there any "standard" designations for the common 44-pin edge connector? Any "standard" about which pins are component-side and which are solder-side? Common usage of any of those pins? I haven't run across any such, so far. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From menadeau at comcast.net Sun Mar 2 16:01:43 2008 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:01:43 -0500 Subject: Selling off large literature collection References: <009a01c87bca$0a423320$6701a8c0@Mike> <299EB6FC242FCF47AA4118ED9365BF94BF1DDF@EUROPEV004.europe.fs.fujitsu.com> Message-ID: <002001c87cb1$006258c0$6701a8c0@Mike> Mark, I definitely have material for most of the systems you mentioned, and I'll try to send a list later tonight. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brennan Mark" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:04 AM Subject: RE: Selling off large literature collection > Hi Michael, > I would like to add Tandem/Sequent/Pyramid/Wang and tricord to the list > of interested items > Again many thanks mark > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________ > Mark Brennan, System Engineer, > Fujitsu Services, Airside Business Park, Swords, County Dublin, Ireland > Mobile: +353-87-222-2326 Telephone: +353-1-813 6000 Facsimile: > +353-1-813 6600 > email: mark.brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Web: ie.fujitsu.com > This e-mail is only for the use of its intended recipient. Its contents > are subject to a duty of confidence and may be privileged. Fujitsu > Services does not guarantee that this e-mail has not been intercepted > and amended or that it is virus-free. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau > Sent: 01 March 2008 18:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Selling off large literature collection > > After a lot of thought, I've decided to sell off my collection of > computer > literature. This collection consists of presskits, brochures, photos, > catalogs, and other items. Much of this collection came from my years as > an > editor for publications such as BYTE and 80 Micro. The age ranges from > the > early 1970s through the 1990s, and includes everything from PDAs, > micros, > portables, minis, and mainframes. It also includes material on software, > > peripherals, online services, and misc. related paraphernalia. If you > have > my book, Collectible Microcomputers, most of the images in it were > scanned > from this material. > > My plan is to sell it off piece by piece, and I'm giving list members > first > dibs. Pricing will be reasonable, below eBay rates. I do have a few rare > > items that I will need to get more for. > > I do not have a list, but it's filed in a somewhat orderly fashion. If > you > send me your want list offline, I can get back to you quickly. I'm also > traveling frequently through early May, which might slow my responses. > > There is a catch. The reason I'm selling is that I'm going digital--it's > a > lot easier to manage everything that way. I plan to scan the items as I > sell > them. If you want a lot of items, it may take a little time for me to > scan > them. > > > > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 2 08:37:26 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 14:37:26 -0000 Subject: 1st stage loader for IMSAI - need ascii to binary References: <719427.15333.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <47C5F66B.6090601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000201c87cbc$58bc9930$c5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "woodelf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:46 PM Subject: Re: 1st stage loader for IMSAI - need ascii to binary > Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > YouTube doesn't stream. It slowly downloads the flash video files to > > the temporary internet files folder where it's usually named "FlaXX.tmp". > > The XX is usually a hex number depending on how many tmp files you > > have in there. The file is also (99% of the time) deleted the second you > > close the page it is linked to. > > Now you tell me. :( Yes, it is unfortunate. You can't copy the file (or rename) it without getting an error message (something about a file sharing violation). So any video you wish to keep has to be downloaded using a special piece of software (Unplug and Media Pirate are the two I use), unless you know how to get around the sharing violation problem on windows, or you aren't using windows at all :) > > > The good thing is that you can watch the video before it's fully > > downloaded. A very good thing if you are on dial-up :) > > That is handy, but I like to download stuff over night like PDF's and > small Videos. The video's I download normally only take about 30 minutes on dial-up. > > > Does anyone have a list of retro video's on YouTube? I know most can be > > found by searching for the appropriate machine name, but not everyone > > has decent tags with there videos :( > > Any more Online Movies of Vintage computers? > Yeah that's what I meant. > > > Regards, > > Andrew B > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > PS: on the tag line: Watch the anime "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzmiya" > Thanks for the pointer, I'll check that out. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 18:31:02 2008 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 19:31:02 -0500 Subject: COMPAQ bag, 386 SBC, NCR 53c710 development kit, VGA card Message-ID: These are available from Ohio, US. If no one wants them in a few days, I am going to throw them away. shipping charge only. The bag is for the Compaq portable. Shipping $10 in the main chunk US. 53C710 development board (ISA) with manual. Detailed information of the 53C710. Shipping $10 in the main chunk US. 386 SBC board is the same as this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/Citadel-Single-Board-Computer-3-Real-Time-OS_W0QQitemZ190201766847 Shipping $10 in the US. I will combine the VGA card with it. For the above items you can choose actual shipping cost or choose the above mentioned fixed charge. Let me know, thank you. best, vax9000 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 20:03:52 2008 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:03:52 -0500 Subject: COMPAQ bag, 386 SBC, NCR 53c710 development kit, VGA card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 7:31 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: > These are available from Ohio, US. > If no one wants them in a few days, I am going to throw them away. > > shipping charge only. > The bag is for the Compaq portable. Shipping $10 in the main chunk US. This bag is spoken. > > 53C710 development board (ISA) with manual. Detailed information of the > 53C710. Shipping $10 in the main chunk US. > 386 SBC board is the same as this one: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Citadel-Single-Board-Computer-3-Real-Time-OS_W0QQitemZ190201766847 > Shipping $10 in the US. I will combine the VGA card with it. > > For the above items you can choose actual shipping cost or choose the > above mentioned fixed charge. > > Let me know, thank you. > > best, > vax9000 > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 2 20:11:07 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 21:11:07 -0500 Subject: new disk controllers for DEC platforms (was Re: Q-bus to CF) In-Reply-To: <003801c87c78$b8c3f970$2a4bec50$@com> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CA0452.3040203@nktelco.net> <20080302074604.GE17264@usap.gov> <003801c87c78$b8c3f970$2a4bec50$@com> Message-ID: <47CB5E3B.1040201@compsys.to> >Bob Armstrong wrote: >>>Ethan Dicks (ethan.dicks at usap.gov) wrote: >> >>>On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 08:35:14PM -0500, Charles H Dickman wrote: >>>... >>>Software development for a 20 year old OS is not easy. >>> >>And in the case of the PDP-11, several 20-year-old OSes, or in the case >>of the VAX, a few old OSes, of many versions. >> > All true, although it might not be as bad as it sounds. There are a lot >of people on this list, and some of them used old DEC computers and >operating systems. Some of them might already know how to write a driver >for one of these OSes - get a group of them together and you'll have all the >old OSes covered. And it is fairly well documented how to write device >drivers for at least RT, RSX and VMS. And the first thing you should do is >hack up simh to include emulation of your proposed new "RQATA" interface >card; then you could start writing drivers before the hardware was even >done, and simh is a great tool for debugging the driver software. If you >actually had a group of motivated (i.e. they were getting paid for it :-) >people together it would not be that hard. > > Jerome Fine replies: I have been writing new RT-11 device drivers and making bug fixes and enhancements to old, existing RT-11 device drivers for more than 20 years. If a new device driver is needed for an RT-11 (Qbus to CF) device, I would be glad to write a driver for RT-11 without any pay. If anyone else wants to get together for RSX, RSTS and VMS, I would enjoy the challenge. However, I have only Qbus hardware if any testing is needed. As Allison has mentioned elsewhere, RT-11 has a 16 bit limitation for the device size (as did V3.3 of DOS), so the solution was to use partitions with 65536 blocks. Any physical device in RT-11 that is larger than 65536 blocks is then split into partitions of exactly 65536 blocks each. In practice, DEC wrote only the MSCP device driver to be capable of handling devices with more than 65536 blocks. In RT-11, it was the DU(X).SYS device driver which initially (starting with V05.03 of RT-11) was able to handle disk drives with up to 8 GB of capacity, although with only 8 active RT-11 partitions could easily see only 256 MBytes at a time. With V05.05 of RT-11, 64 active partitions could easily see up to 2 GB at a time. As has been noted elsewhere, MSCP is a complex protocol and a Qbus to anything controller which handles the MSCP interface is not trivial. My suggestion is to take a page from John Wilson's Ersatz-11 and use the HD: interface which is MUCH easier to implement in real hardware / firmware for a host adapter on the Qbus or Unibus for a PDP-11. While the flexibility in an MSCP protocol is missing, the speed of drives these days probably makes that unnecessary. If anyone produces a controller for the Qbus, I will further enhance the HD(X).SYS device driver to use a translation table (in a manner similar to the DU.SYS device driver in RT-11) which can handle drives up to 2 TB. I already have a partially complete HD(X).SYS device driver which is able to read and write 64 contiguous partitions (i.e. up to 2 GB) within a file or device that is up to 2 TB, although in practice, the largest file under W98SE which I am using for testing is 2 GB in any case. The mention of SIMH leads me to ask that someone write the emulation code to allow SIMH to use the HD: device with the SIMH emulator. If anyone does write the code for SIMH for an HD: device, I will help debug the code from the RT-11 perspective. Once SIMH has an HD: device for RT-11, it will be almost trivial to modify one of the other device drivers for RSX and RSTS (probably the RL02) to handle the HD: device. >OTOH, the SBC6120 was sort of my experiment in open source old computer >development. I always hoped people would expand and add to it, both in >hardware and software, but for the most part that never really happened. >Most people wanted to buy a turnkey system that they could plug in, turn on, >and start using it - people seem to have jobs, families and real lives and >just don't have the time to do a lot of development. > I guess that being retired now - I am the exception. I have been making bug fixes and extensive enhancements to RT-11 for more than 25 years including my own set of Y2K bug fixes - which eventually I want to expand to Y9K. I think the problem with any 3rd party changes was that most companies felt that DEC was the only supplier which could be counted upon. By 1994, DEC had sold the PDP-11 software to Mentec - who supported RT-11 even less than DEC with good reason, of course, since there was really very little call for any bug fixes except for Y2K and even less call for enhancements. At present, I can't seem to find anyone else who is making changes and fixing bugs in RT-11. If you have made any recent changes to RT-11, I would be VERY interested in hearing about them!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 2 20:12:04 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 21:12:04 -0500 Subject: new disk controllers for DEC platforms (was Re: Q-bus to CF) In-Reply-To: <20080302161619.GB5661@usap.gov> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CA0452.3040203@nktelco.net> <20080302074604.GE17264@usap.gov> <003801c87c78$b8c3f970$2a4bec50$@com> <20080302161619.GB5661@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47CB5E74.8040400@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 07:18:51AM -0800, Bob Armstrong wrote: > >>All true, although it might not be as bad as it sounds. There are a lot >>of people on this list, and some of them used old DEC computers and >>operating systems. Some of them might already know how to write a driver >>for one of these OSes - get a group of them together and you'll have all the >>old OSes covered. >> >True, but there are a lot of dusty neurons to polish before much progress >could be made. I haven't written a device driver for DEC hardware in >over 15 years (I've worked on Ultrix, and VMS 4.x and VMS 5.x, myself). > > Jerome Fine replies: As I just stated, I am up and running for an RT-11 version of any device driver. >>... the first thing you should do is >>hack up simh to include emulation of your proposed new "RQATA" interface >>card; then you could start writing drivers before the hardware was even >>done, and simh is a great tool for debugging the driver software. >> >That's an excellent suggestion (and I say that having helped Bob Supnik >debug one of _his_ drivers long ago). > > The suggestion I made was to include john Wilson's HD: device drive in SIMH. Since I already have produced most of the RT-11 device drivers that would be needed, an HD: in SIMH would be off and running immediately. Is anyone here capable of writing the HD: code for SIMH? I guess that if I had some help, the way to go would be to modify the RK05 or the RL02 emulation. By the way, does SIMH allow for an equivalent to the RAM: device that Ersatz-11 uses: MOUNT DU0: RAM: /SIZE:65536 - which provides a 65536 block RAM: disk Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cctech at vax-11.org Sun Mar 2 21:32:59 2008 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 20:32:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: DEC Infoserver 100 In-Reply-To: References: <47A32AF5020000370001FC35@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <200802051953.OAA24150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200802051552.31928.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20080206024459.GB8060@usap.gov> <006301c868db$07c70870$17551950$@com> <20080206193917.GC17779@usap.gov> Message-ID: Is it possible to network boot Ultrix onto a VS3100 from an Infoserver 100? I found a webpage that talks about loading ISL_SVAXxxx.SYS to boot VMS from, but nothing equivalent for Ultrix. Clint From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Mar 2 23:48:40 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:48:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uniplus manual set Message-ID: I have a set of Uniplus manuals (flavor of Unix from circa 1990) that I've run a few times on Ebay. The thing weighs 11 pounds. Whoever wants it can have it for cost of shipping (which by media mail won't be much). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 2 06:27:04 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:27:04 -0500 Subject: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? Message-ID: <0JX3003DBRVTVT32@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 22:02:35 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Saturday 01 March 2008 21:11, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> The extended system tests 101, 102 and 80000106 will not test the FPU >> - this may be normal, I don't know. The docs say they will test all >> hardware which is installed - this may mean that the FPU is not being >> full detected... I don't know. > >Is the FPU socketed? If so, can you remove it, and what the boot and >test output looks like? It's soldered down and not removeable with out the right tools for handling high lead count surface mount. Me I'd pull a old MVII cpu card and do the remove and replace of the FPU and CPU. MicroVAXIIs with good cpus and FPU and bad Qbus interfaces are not uncommon. Allison >I've not had my uV2000 opened up (or even turned on yet...), but that'd >be my next step. > >If you can't remove the FPU (likely), the diagnostics would probably be >complaining about it not working... > >Maybe if I have some time, I'll dig mine out and try playing with it. > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:09:29 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:09:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: <47CA9277.4080602@mdrconsult.com> References: <7c7c96a50803011137i1762cfd3tbf967822b9ae0527@mail.gmail.com> <47CA9277.4080602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: > At the risk of sounding like a broken record, MC Howard in Austin, Texas > has been my source for everything from 74-series chips to 64-pin wirewrap > sockets to RAM for my HP-9000. I basically populated my SBC6120 off their > shelves, and the homebrew 6809 project I'm working on was provisioned there > too. > > The prices on their website are insane, but I've never heard of them > actually charging what's listed. Interesting. If I tripped over that website on my own, I wouldn't have the impression that it was worth my while to deal with them. Literally everything brings up a page stating "...Coming Soon". Still, your recommendation carries weight and I'll file the link for future reference. Steve -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 2 12:45:33 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:45:33 -0500 Subject: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? Message-ID: <0JX400GPE9EKYCW5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:35:46 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > The extended system tests 101, 102 and 80000106 will not test the FPU >> > - this may be normal, I don't know. The docs say they will test all >> > hardware which is installed - this may mean that the FPU is not being >> > full detected... I don't know. >> >> Is the FPU socketed? If so, can you remove it, and what the boot and >> test output looks like? > >Aw, I wish ... the only things socketed on this board are the ROMs and >the serial device. The CPU/FPU are 68 pin surface mount devices. > > >> If you can't remove the FPU (likely), the diagnostics would probably be >> complaining about it not working... > >Which is the main reason I'm not 100% convinced the FPU is faulty. But I >can't get the extended disgnostics to test it, and I don't know how "good" >it has to be to pass the basic startup test. It doesnt other than not jamming the busses. VAX does nto need the FPU to boot. > >> I've not had my uV2000 opened up (or even turned on yet...), but that'd >> be my next step. >> >> Maybe if I have some time, I'll dig mine out and try playing with it. > >If you do open it up and have it to the point where you can scope signals, >please contact me ... I've got a few questions about the signals I see in >mine. I've also got a couple of questions about the diagnostics and the >FPU that could be answered with a running system (only the console ROM >required). > >If anyone has a running VS2000 or UV2000 and is willing to open it up to >help me do some comparison testing, here are the things I would most like >to know: I had mine open for temperature testing, thats were I got the 58C from. I should play with console boot later. >[For best results, it would be good if the system were configured to match >mine - all expansion boards, drives, peripherals etc. disconnected, and >the uVAX/VS jumper located about 3" directly behind the BNC ethernet connector >set to the uVAX position, which is AWAY from the BNC connector.] Sounds like mine more or less. I cant scope it at this time as the wide band scope is burried and likely not going to emerge for a while. I have a 20mhz dual trace for most work handy as it's smaller but it will not see a 40mhz clock well nor do I use it for that kind of work. Allison >[To run the extended diagnostics 101, 102 and 80000106 you need a DB-25-F >connector installed (on the DB-25-M connector on the board) with pins 12 >and 18 connected together] > >a) Whats tests are run by the "T 101" command? > Mine runs: C, B, 7, 6 > >b) If you run "T 80000106" and then enter '9' at the "? >>>" prompt, > do you get any test output other than the CPU designation title? > >[For the following, I would like a description of the waveforms > observed, waveshape, amplitude and frequency where appropriate] > >c) The 40Mhz clock at the W4 jumper (right beside the 40Mhz oscillator > "can") - with the jumper installed? > I see 40Mhz sine wave, about 2.3v p-p > >d) The 40Mhz clock at the W4 jumper pin closest to the oscillator > "can" with the jumper removed? > I see 40Mhz sine wave about 3.4v p-p > >e) Pins on FPU > 44 - I see about 160mv irregular square wave > 59 - Same as above > 15 - I see 40Mhz at about 160mv > >Dave > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From fwujek at cox.net Sun Mar 2 14:05:15 2008 From: fwujek at cox.net (Fred H. Wujek) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 13:05:15 -0700 Subject: atc-510 simulator Message-ID: <001e01c87ca0$bae8f520$8801a8c0@usertd1v3kzvti> Hi Joe, Was wondering if you ran across or have a Service Manual for the ATC-510??? Thank you, Fred H. Wujek From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 19:20:16 2008 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 20:20:16 -0500 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <2789adda0803011846o4ecbb427s455403c59b40a44f@mail.gmail.co m> References: <200803011046.m21Akccb052194@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001e01c87bb4$44d07120$6500a8c0@barry> <7d3530220803011010m3036c42cie6b20bf986dbc0ae@mail.gmail.com> <2789adda0803011846o4ecbb427s455403c59b40a44f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0JX400CWJRU6UJQ0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> At 09:46 PM 3/1/2008, you wrote: >I have a Selectic II that I use now and then. Similar problem. I packed a >few paper towels in there and sprayed a fair amount of good (not WD40) >lubricant (LPS brand if I recall), let it soak for an hour and than wiped >the insides out and removed the towels. It works great. > >This is not a restoration or preservation, but rather how I got a junk >selectric II that I got for free to work wonderfully. Got a new ribbon at >office depot too. If there was one thing I would like to do would be to >have the platen turned down to level out all the pocks from years of use. Do you remember what LPS lubricant you used? I have a 'Ham Fest' IBM Selectric and it sticks a little. From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 19:27:50 2008 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 20:27:50 -0500 Subject: new disk controllers for DEC platforms (was Re: Q-bus to CF) In-Reply-To: <20080302161619.GB5661@usap.gov> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47C9F8EF.8060604@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CA0452.3040203@nktelco.net> <20080302074604.GE17264@usap.gov> <003801c87c78$b8c3f970$2a4bec50$@com> <20080302161619.GB5661@usap.gov> Message-ID: <0JX400II8S248TG1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Why can't the driver(s) for RAM disks be used? Then the hardware interface might be a whole lot simpler, just make the IDE drive look like an extended section of memory. At 11:16 AM 3/2/2008, you wrote: >On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 07:18:51AM -0800, Bob Armstrong wrote: > > > Ethan Dicks (ethan.dicks at usap.gov) wrote: > > > > > >>On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 08:35:14PM -0500, Charles H Dickman wrote: > > >>... > > >> Software development for a 20 year old OS is not easy. > > > > > >And in the case of the PDP-11, several 20-year-old OSes, or in the case > > >of the VAX, a few old OSes, of many versions. > > > > All true, although it might not be as bad as it sounds. There are a lot > > of people on this list, and some of them used old DEC computers and > > operating systems. Some of them might already know how to write a driver > > for one of these OSes - get a group of them together and you'll > have all the > > old OSes covered. > >True, but there are a lot of dusty neurons to polish before much progress >could be made. I haven't written a device driver for DEC hardware in >over 15 years (I've worked on Ultrix, and VMS 4.x and VMS 5.x, myself). > > > ... the first thing you should do is > > hack up simh to include emulation of your proposed new "RQATA" interface > > card; then you could start writing drivers before the hardware was even > > done, and simh is a great tool for debugging the driver software. > >That's an excellent suggestion (and I say that having helped Bob Supnik >debug one of _his_ drivers long ago). > > > OTOH, the SBC6120 was sort of my experiment in open source old computer > > development. I always hoped people would expand and add to it, both in > > hardware and software, but for the most part that never really happened. > > Most people wanted to buy a turnkey system that they could plug > in, turn on, > > and start using it - people seem to have jobs, families and real lives and > > just don't have the time to do a lot of development. > > >From my own standpoint, especially since I have an IOB6120 and FP6120, >it does pretty much everything I'd want it to do. About the only feature >I can think of off the top of my head would be to jimmy the IOB6120 >FPGA firmware to be able to talk to a real RX01/RX02 hanging off of the >I/O pins (with suitable line drivers/receivers, of course). I'd probably >only want that to be able to image disks, anyway, though. Out of the box, >the SBC6120 boots up OS/8 and that works for most of what I'd do with a >"real" PDP-8 anyway - boot it up, play a few games, and marvel at what's >going on under the hood. > >In terms of software dev, folks can just as easily fire up simh and work >on software there. I always thought the appeal of the SBC6120 was to >have a real 12-bit machine in ones hands, not the developement aspect of it. > >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Mar-2008 at 15:49 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -52.8 F (-47.1 C) Windchill -87.4 F (-66.3 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 13.4 kts Grid 12 Barometer 685.9 mb (10406 ft) > >Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Mar 3 01:24:33 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:24:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uniplus manual set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, David Griffith wrote: > I have a set of Uniplus manuals (flavor of Unix from circa 1990) that I've > run a few times on Ebay. The thing weighs 11 pounds. Whoever wants it > can have it for cost of shipping (which by media mail won't be much). The manuals are claimed. Thanks! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 01:48:19 2008 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 01:48:19 -0600 Subject: Selectric trouble In-Reply-To: <0JX400CWJRU6UJQ0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <200803011046.m21Akccb052194@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001e01c87bb4$44d07120$6500a8c0@barry> <7d3530220803011010m3036c42cie6b20bf986dbc0ae@mail.gmail.com> <2789adda0803011846o4ecbb427s455403c59b40a44f@mail.gmail.com> <0JX400CWJRU6UJQ0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <2789adda0803022348n2af9638fq57775f756bd3e036@mail.gmail.com> I used lps-2, which leaves a oily film that I then "moderated" with my wiping. LPS-1 would probably work too. Also Liquid Wrench products like their " L312 Liquid Wrench Non-Flammable Super Lubricant with PTFE" that you can get almost anywhere would also work. The solvent action of the spray lubricant does most of the good work. Please note that I had no intention of restoring or preserving good luck with yours. bob. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > At 09:46 PM 3/1/2008, you wrote: > >I have a Selectic II that I use now and then. Similar problem. I packed a > >few paper towels in there and sprayed a fair amount of good (not WD40) > >lubricant (LPS brand if I recall), let it soak for an hour and than wiped > >the insides out and removed the towels. It works great. > > > >This is not a restoration or preservation, but rather how I got a junk > >selectric II that I got for free to work wonderfully. Got a new ribbon at > >office depot too. If there was one thing I would like to do would be to > >have the platen turned down to level out all the pocks from years of use. > > Do you remember what LPS lubricant you used? I have a 'Ham Fest' IBM > Selectric and it sticks a little. > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 3 02:24:37 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 03:24:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? In-Reply-To: <0JX3003DBRVTVT32@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JX3003DBRVTVT32@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200803030827.DAA22023@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Is the [uV2k] FPU socketed? > It's soldered down and not removeable with out the right tools for > handling high lead count surface mount. > Me I'd pull a old MVII cpu card and do the remove and replace of the > FPU and CPU. MicroVAXIIs with good cpus and FPU and bad Qbus > interfaces are not uncommon. The uVII and the uV2k use identical FPU and CPU chips, even down to the packaging? That's definitely a tidbit worth remembering. I don't think I have a suitable uV2 donor card just now, though. :( /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doug at stillhq.com Mon Mar 3 03:26:15 2008 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:26:15 +1100 Subject: Neat find (in my own junk bin!) - NS 8073 In-Reply-To: <200803030750.m237nsk4091286@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803030750.m237nsk4091286@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47CBC437.9060306@stillhq.com> Hi I saw a message on the classic computer list in 2003 from Ethan saying that he had a RB5X robot controller with a 8073 SC/MP controller on it. The thread degenerated into a general car discussion from what I have been able to determine. Today, I received my INS8060 and INS8073 CPU chips from Unicorn - The 8060's are easy, I have been able to find tons of doco, and will be producing a couple of SC/MP blinken lights and swiches systems (but not with 2012 ram chips ;-) ) shortly - That's the easy bit. I am very interested in the INS8073 (with Tiny Basic onboard), and have so far come across a PDF of the 807x (8070/8072), as another spare time consuming system - My questions are; 1) Has anybody got a reference implementation for the 8073 - I suspect that it involves a 4Mhz xtal, and a RS232 line driver/receiver connected to SA (as RXD) and F1 (as TXD) - that can be breadboarded easily, but the real secret is what address will it be expecting the external 6164 ram to provide the 8k of massive storage... 2) Did anybody end up reverse engineering the RB5X board - in the words of a somebody wiser than me -- "That'l do in a pinch" 3) Does anybody have the basic reference guide that indicates the allowed word lists for this part? Thanks, Doug Jackson From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 03:43:13 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:43:13 +1100 Subject: Nostalgia trip References: <200803030750.m237nsk4091286@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CBC437.9060306@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <023a01c87d13$00f1b3f0$0100a8c0@pentium> I've just gone on a major nostalgia trip & put back online my original (1987) BBS running under the original software on the original BBS machine - an Amiga 1000 Am also restoring my Amiga files back to it as well. For those interested in a snapshot of the way BBS's were 21 years ago, point your telnet client at landover.no-ip.com cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org // From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Mar 3 03:55:41 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:55:41 +0000 Subject: Neat find (in my own junk bin!) - NS 8073 In-Reply-To: <47CBC437.9060306@stillhq.com> References: <200803030750.m237nsk4091286@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CBC437.9060306@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <20080303095541.GA26835@usap.gov> On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 08:26:15PM +1100, Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi > > I saw a message on the classic computer list in 2003 from Ethan saying > that he had a RB5X robot controller with a 8073 SC/MP controller on it. Yep. I even have it with me. I need to finish debugging a problem with the SC-02 speech board and why it acts differently depending on what vendor and model of 8255 is used to access it. > The thread degenerated into a general car discussion from what I have > been able to determine. Yes... well that does tend to happen, unfortunately. > Today, I received my INS8060 and INS8073 CPU chips from Unicorn Nice. > I am very interested in the INS8073 (with Tiny Basic onboard), and have > so far come across a PDF of the 807x (8070/8072), as another spare time > consuming system - My questions are; > > 1) Has anybody got a reference implementation for the 8073 http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/INS8073/APNOTE1.PDF > - I suspect > that it involves a 4Mhz xtal, and a RS232 line driver/receiver connected > to SA (as RXD) and F1 (as TXD) - that can be breadboarded easily, but > the real secret is what address will it be expecting the external 6164 > ram to provide the 8k of massive storage... The RAM needs to start at $1000 (Tiny BASIC lives at $0000-$0FFF). The other trick is that you need to provide a few jumper bits at $FFD0 so that the onboard ROM knows what baudrate to talk to you at. The reference design, I think, makes the right bit pattern out of resistors and floats the rest of the data bus so that the bit pattern shows up in all non-addressed spaces. I have another INS8073 board, the MC-1N, that uses a 32x8 PROM for address selection of RAM, ROM, and a couple of I/O chips, plus the baudrate detector. It's far more formal than the reference design, and might be a way to go if you want any I/O other than the two or three bits right off the processor. You can also put an EPROM at $8000, but that's not an essential part of the reference design. > 2) Did anybody end up reverse engineering the RB5X board - in the words > of a somebody wiser than me -- "That'l do in a pinch" Who needs to reverse-engineer it? The current owner of the pile of RB5X parts sent me the schematics. ;-) I can find out if I can send a copy to someone without a robot, or you could join the RB5X Yahoo Group and see if what you want is in this... > 3) Does anybody have the basic reference guide that indicates the > allowed word lists for this part? For just a programmer's card - If you want docs that delve more deeply into Tiny Basic (for the MC-1N) ASCII - PDF - All these resources are pointed to by: Feel free to send me questions directly, or post them on the list and I'll do what I can to answer them. Enjoy, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 3-Mar-2008 at 09:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -62.0 F (-52.2 C) Windchill -95.2 F (-70.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.3 kts Grid 80 Barometer 686.3 mb (10391 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Mar 3 04:26:15 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:26:15 +0000 Subject: Neat find (in my own junk bin!) - NS 8073 In-Reply-To: <20080303095541.GA26835@usap.gov> References: <200803030750.m237nsk4091286@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CBC437.9060306@stillhq.com> <20080303095541.GA26835@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080303102615.GA27250@usap.gov> On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 09:55:41AM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The RAM needs to start at $1000 (Tiny BASIC lives at $0000-$0FFF). A correction: INS8073 MEMORY MAP #0000 - #09FF Internal 8073 ROM (2.5K) #0A00 - #0FFF Not Available #1000 - #10FF Tiny BASIC Variables #1100 - #7FFF User Program Space (RAM) #8000 - #FCFF User Program Space (ROM, or more RAM) #FD00 - #FDFF Baud Rate Select #FE00 - #FFBF Not Available #FFC0 - #FFFF Internal 8073 MPU RAM (64 bytes) (I knew there was scratchpad RAM somewhere, but I didn't remember the exact extent off the top of my head). It's in the MC-1N documentation, but when you do a "NEW" on a freshly-booted chip, you have to tell it where the program starts. Typically, that's either "NEW #1100" for coding in RAM, or "NEW #8000" if you want to run what's in ROM. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 3-Mar-2008 at 10:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -62.0 F (-52.2 C) Windchill -92.9 F (-69.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.8 kts Grid 98 Barometer 686.6 mb (10380 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Mar 3 07:33:42 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:33:42 -0300 Subject: Nostalgia trip References: <200803030750.m237nsk4091286@dewey.classiccmp.org><47CBC437.9060306@stillhq.com> <023a01c87d13$00f1b3f0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <005001c87d33$e3777500$0502a8c0@portajara> > I've just gone on a major nostalgia trip & put back online my original > (1987) BBS running under the original software on the original BBS > machine - an Amiga 1000 Hmmm...you gave me a darn nice idea... :oD From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 3 08:57:59 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 06:57:59 -0800 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <47CA6401.24789.F8A7A2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004801c87c13$80ab6c40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop>, <9e2403920803011921o2b05da3cj8952d72f11e40bf2@mail.gmail.com>, <47CA6401.24789.F8A7A2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 2 Mar 2008 at 7:18, dwight elvey wrote: > >> The cost of a mask ROM was expensive to develop. >> The IMSAI and Altair were created just after Intel created the floating >> gate EPROM. It was a step the lead to the end of the front panel. >> I consider the EPROM to be more significant to computing than the >> 4004 was. Others were on the way to creating their own uP's. It >> was the EPROM that lowered the development cost making even the >> shoe string shops able to create products. > > EPROM dates from 1971, before the 8080. Even then, the bipolar PROM > was around (PROM dates from 1956, albeit not as an IC). Indeed, my > first front-panel substitute 8080 system used bipolar TTL PROM and > not an UV EPROM. > Hi I'm quite aware of when the first EPROMs were made. I worked at Intel for a number of years. What I meant was the use of EPROMs as a way to debug code. Bipolar PROMs were an expensive way to debug code for small shops. Even EPROMs were expensive until the 2716s dropped below 10 in cost. Programming EPROMs didn't get covenient until the 2732 ( or was it 2764 ) came with the faster programming algorithms. There was a transision time before thinking changed and front panels lost their glitter. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 3 09:22:49 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:22:49 -0800 Subject: board scan, design reconstruction (was IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <0e6998cc32bff36a038939fbb8478c52@neurotica.com> References: <004d01c87b39$684a6f00$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <0e6998cc32bff36a038939fbb8478c52@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On Mar 1, 2008, at 10:39 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> How about a PCI floppy controller board? Maybe with some supplementary >>> logic to allow raw track reads? Possibly a BIOS to boot from? An >>> external >>> floppy drive connector? >>> >>> Just wondering how complicated such a thing would be. Thanks! >> >> It would be relatively easy if you did most of the work in a DSP chip. >> For the floppy end, you need a parallel port to read status and >> write controls. >> For reading raw data, a 7474 flipflop, an adjustable clock >> and a DSP chip, such as a ADSP2118 or similar. >> Then you'd need a bus interface to the PCI bus. > > Why not just build that bus interface and put a floppy controller > chip (WD2797, 765, etc) on the other side of it? I suppose the DSP > chip would give you much greater flexibility in terms of being able to > download new code into it to support different formats (even different > types of modulation), but it's much more complex. > > Hmm. Now that I think about it, a DSP-based floppy controller would > be amazingly flexible. Wow.. > Hi I like the DSP over the PIC because it has several feature that make it easier to handle this application. My thinking is that the SPI port makes a great way to sample the bit stream from the drive. I'd still add a flipflop in front so that one doesn't have to sample the pulse width, only the spacing between pulses. The DSP comes with an efficient barral shifter that would be great to align data for pattern matching. It is designed to talk to a host computer with minimal external circuits and contains enough RAM to buffer the results of a track of data. The circuit would have almost no external components being that most of the work was software. The code could even be easily down loaded from the PC to select differing formats. With a PIC is it either a bit banging or adding external components to handle these operations. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 09:27:50 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:27:50 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> Message-ID: <47CC18F6.5000306@gmail.com> Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Well if my SBC6120 ( PDP 8 Clone) can have a IDE interface >> why not some other PDP > > Ah, but for the SBC6120 I wrote a custom device driver for OS/8. The IDE > interface doesn't emulate any standard PDP-8 device. > > As somebody already pointed out, if you're willing to write device drivers > for all the PDP-11 operating systems, it'd be easy enough to do the same > thing for QBUS or UNIBUS. Or if you're willing to write an MSCP layer into your controller firmware. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 3 10:34:26 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:34:26 -0800 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 Message-ID: Here is an odd question for everyone. In a printed article, which would be more accurate? "Apple ][", "Apple II", or "Apple 2" Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 10:44:09 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:44:09 -0600 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920803030844ybc400by6c406968090f884b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Here is an odd question for everyone. In a printed article, which > would be more accurate? "Apple ][", "Apple II", or "Apple 2" > > Zane > I sense an impending flame war. Everyone uses every kind of moniker for the A2 platform. I personally use mostly "Apple II", plus "Apple //". There's the Apple //, the Apple II Plus (II+), Apple IIe, the Apple IIc (and IIc Plus or IIc+), and the Apple IIgs. Josef From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 10:53:19 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Here is an odd question for everyone. In a printed > article, which > would be more accurate? "Apple ][", "Apple II", or > "Apple 2" That's probably open to interpretation, and depends on the machine you're referring to. I _believe_ that the original Apple II, the II+ and the early IIe's were identified as "Apple ][" (at boot), but later IIe's and the IIc were written as "Apple //". And then the GS got written as "Apple IIgs". I typically have always used the "Apple II" because it works for all machines, and looks good in any typeface. The brackets look OK, but are kinda funny when used in file names, and you can't use the // in file names at all, for obvious reasons. Rarely is the Apple II ever referred to as the Apple 2. Or, you could just avoid the whole mess alltogether and call it the "Extremely popular fruit-named company, 1980's market dominating, expandable personal computing system". And most people will know what you're talking about. -Ian From trag at io.com Mon Mar 3 11:16:37 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:16:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:09:29 -0500 (EST) > From: Steven Hirsch > On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> At the risk of sounding like a broken record, MC Howard in Austin, >> Texas >> has been my source for everything from 74-series chips to 64-pin >> wirewrap >> The prices on their website are insane, but I've never heard of them >> actually charging what's listed. > > Interesting. If I tripped over that website on my own, I wouldn't have > the impression that it was worth my while to deal with them. Literally > everything brings up a page stating "...Coming Soon". And if you're ever in Austin, it's worth a stop by to browse the store. It's not huge, but it's fairly large and there are many shelves of Stuff. They also have a nice assortment of old connectors. Take Loop 1 (AKA MoPac) to 183. Go south on 183 to Burnet Road. Take Burnet Road north two stop lights to Longhorn. Turn left on Longhorn, take it to the end (a few blocks) turn left again, and Howard is in the second set of industrial buildings on the left, next to the carpeting distributer. Jeff Walther From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 3 11:17:25 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:17:25 -0700 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: References: <7c7c96a50803011137i1762cfd3tbf967822b9ae0527@mail.gmail.com> <47CA9277.4080602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <47CC32A5.2090005@mdrconsult.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> At the risk of sounding like a broken record, MC Howard in Austin, >> Texas has been my source for everything from 74-series chips to 64-pin >> wirewrap sockets to RAM for my HP-9000. I basically populated my >> SBC6120 off their shelves, and the homebrew 6809 project I'm working >> on was provisioned there too. >> >> The prices on their website are insane, but I've never heard of them >> actually charging what's listed. > > Interesting. If I tripped over that website on my own, I wouldn't have > the impression that it was worth my while to deal with them. Literally > everything brings up a page stating "...Coming Soon". I know. The guy who built that site graduated and moved on 10 or 11 years ago, and I'm not sure it's been maintained since. I forgot to mention their eBay store: mchowardelectronics That's a much better example of their wares. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 3 11:27:51 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:27:51 -0800 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:53 AM -0800 3/3/08, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >Rarely is the Apple II ever referred to as the Apple >2. Thanks, I've sent feedback to the person writing the article. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 3 11:29:01 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:29:01 -0800 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920803030844ybc400by6c406968090f884b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920803030844ybc400by6c406968090f884b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:44 AM -0600 3/3/08, Josef Chessor wrote: >I sense an impending flame war. I really hope not. I now have the info I needed. My thanks to you both. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 3 11:44:19 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:44:19 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47CC38F3.6030504@atarimuseum.com> Don't forget Apple // ;-) I think Apple ][ and Apple II are more correct, the first being the most widely used. Curt Zane H. Healy wrote: > Here is an odd question for everyone. In a printed article, which > would be more accurate? "Apple ][", "Apple II", or "Apple 2" > > Zane > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 3 12:10:01 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:10:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200803031810.NAA25675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The brackets look OK, but are kinda funny when used in file names, > and you can't use the // in file names at all, for obvious reasons. Oh, come now, not *everything* is Unix. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bob at jfcl.com Mon Mar 3 12:13:00 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:13:00 -0800 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <47CC18F6.5000306@gmail.com> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47CC18F6.5000306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003601c87d5a$37839cc0$a68ad640$@com> > Sridhar Ayengar (ploopster at gmail.com) wrote: >Or if you're willing to write an MSCP layer into your controller firmware. I actually think this is the "right" way to solve the problem in the case of the PDP-11 and VAX, but then controller is no longer a simple device. Bob From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 3 12:13:52 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803031810.NAA25675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Mar 3, 8 01:10:01 pm" Message-ID: <200803031813.m23IDqSx005326@floodgap.com> > > The brackets look OK, but are kinda funny when used in file names, > > and you can't use the // in file names at all, for obvious reasons. > > Oh, come now, not *everything* is Unix. :-) But most of the rest isn't worth it. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Of course I run NetBSD. ---------------------------------------------------- (dodging tomatoes from VMS, Alpha Micro, DOS, Windows, VM/CMS, AS/400, ...) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 3 12:16:06 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:16:06 -0800 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <47CBCFE6.19041.695F8B@cclist.sydex.com> "Apple II" cannot really be cited as being wrong. I've never seen "Apple 2". The stylized versions, such as "Apple ][" are best left to those not having serious literary ambitions. My .02, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 12:48:16 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 11:48:16 -0700 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <003601c87d5a$37839cc0$a68ad640$@com> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47CC18F6.5000306@gmail.com> <003601c87d5a$37839cc0$a68ad640$@com> Message-ID: <47CC47F0.1040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Sridhar Ayengar (ploopster at gmail.com) wrote: > >> Or if you're willing to write an MSCP layer into your controller firmware. > > I actually think this is the "right" way to solve the problem in the case > of the PDP-11 and VAX, but then controller is no longer a simple device. The question is who is the interface for. Is this like the SCB1620 interface to provide a hard drive to a small system that may not have any other major storage device, or is this for a commercial system that has a *Standard* I/O allready? > Bob PS: I was reading the 1966 PDP 8 user handbook, I am finding usefull programing information since they give real detail in I/O devices. Any ideas on how impliment POWER on fail IRQ and restore? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 3 12:46:52 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:46:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803031813.m23IDqSx005326@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 03, 2008 10:13:52 AM Message-ID: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > The brackets look OK, but are kinda funny when used in file names, > > > and you can't use the // in file names at all, for obvious reasons. > > > > Oh, come now, not *everything* is Unix. :-) > > But most of the rest isn't worth it. ;-) Oh, now there is some flame bait! :^) I'll let this slide since you said "most of the rest", but you're getting dangerously close to talking bad about Commodore, and more importantly DEC! :^) Zane P.S. Yes, I know you're a bigger Commodore fan than I am. :^) From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 3 13:08:22 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison Parent) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:08:22 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] Message-ID: <0JX6004NM5AOHC60@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] > From: woodelf > Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 11:48:16 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Bob Armstrong wrote: >>> Sridhar Ayengar (ploopster at gmail.com) wrote: >> >>> Or if you're willing to write an MSCP layer into your controller firmware. >> >> I actually think this is the "right" way to solve the problem in the case >> of the PDP-11 and VAX, but then controller is no longer a simple device. > >The question is who is the interface for. Is this like the SCB1620 interface to provide >a hard drive to a small system that may not have any other major storage device, >or is this for a commercial system that has a *Standard* I/O allready? For commercial you have to deal with the holder of the MSCP intellectual rights. The other issue is MSCP is an intelligent system that has DMA and is able to run linked lists for queued IO.The pro for MSCP is most all of the DEC OSs had drivers for it. The minus is complex, firmware intensive, DMA and temporary bus master and it would try to do some of the buffering that IDE drives already do well. Simple IDE/CF to Qbus(Ubus)... design is near complete copy of a bdirectional parallel port described in the Small Computer Interfacing Manual with a bit more to look like IDE bus and isolate reads and writes. Minus here is the IO is slower using PIO (but still faster than RX02), a driver is required for most OSs. The plus is simple to construct, the driver needed is very simple, if CF is used the board and a 32MB CF is a complete package with as much space as many small Qbus 11s ever had! I'd suggest to anyone that does this a basic boot rom on the board is a sane thing. For RT11, the DD (tu58) driver would make a good prtotype as would the HX previously mentioned. The RT-11 docs cover creating new drivers and VMS docs too. NO, I don't volenteer, way too much going on right now. Allison >> Bob >PS: I was reading the 1966 PDP 8 user handbook, I am finding usefull programing >information since they give real detail in I/O devices. >Any ideas on how impliment POWER on fail IRQ and restore? First you must have core or ram that looks like core (doesn't lose data on power fail). The assumption for real PDP-8 is always core and program in core. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 13:17:56 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:17:56 -0700 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <47CC4EE4.9060204@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Oh, now there is some flame bait! :^) I'll let this slide since you said > "most of the rest", but you're getting dangerously close to talking bad > about Commodore, and more importantly DEC! :^) Well I can bad mouth the C64 ... to my knowlage they never had a OS just Basic in ROM like Coco's and assorted other fruit flavored computers. > Zane > P.S. Yes, I know you're a bigger Commodore fan than I am. :^) You think BASIC rather than some OS for the above 8 bit micros. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 3 13:31:25 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:31:25 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200803031431.25756.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 March 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Oh, come now, not *everything* is Unix. :-) > > > > But most of the rest isn't worth it. ;-) > > Oh, now there is some flame bait! :^) I'll let this slide since you > said "most of the rest", but you're getting dangerously close to > talking bad about Commodore, and more importantly DEC! :^) Lots of DEC stuff runs UNIX just fine. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 3 13:51:08 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:51:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CC4EE4.9060204@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 03, 2008 12:17:56 PM Message-ID: <200803031951.m23Jp8qB019260@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Oh, now there is some flame bait! :^) I'll let this slide since you said > > "most of the rest", but you're getting dangerously close to talking bad > > about Commodore, and more importantly DEC! :^) > > Well I can bad mouth the C64 ... to my knowlage they never had a OS > just Basic in ROM like Coco's and assorted other fruit flavored computers. > > > Zane > > P.S. Yes, I know you're a bigger Commodore fan than I am. :^) > > You think BASIC rather than some OS for the above 8 bit micros. There are OS's for the C-64, as far as I'm concerned, that is half the fun of the 64. :^) It is quite interesting to see what some people have managed to do in that department with the available hardware. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 3 13:53:08 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:53:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803031431.25756.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Mar 03, 2008 02:31:25 PM Message-ID: <200803031953.m23JrAqm019294@onyx.spiritone.com> > > On Monday 03 March 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Oh, come now, not *everything* is Unix. :-) > > > > > > But most of the rest isn't worth it. ;-) > > > > Oh, now there is some flame bait! :^) I'll let this slide since you > > said "most of the rest", but you're getting dangerously close to > > talking bad about Commodore, and more importantly DEC! :^) > > Lots of DEC stuff runs UNIX just fine. :) > > Pat How boring! :^) I've said it before, I'll say it again, I like my Unix nice and fast, and prefer to keep my DEC hardware for more interesting Operating Systems. OTOH, I do have one or two Alpha's that due to memory constraints are better suited to OpenBSD than OpenVMS. Zane From James at jdfogg.com Mon Mar 3 13:53:42 2008 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:53:42 -0500 Subject: Nostalgia trip Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25734A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > For those interested in a snapshot of the way BBS's were 21 years ago, > point > your telnet client at landover.no-ip.com This bangs me out of putty with haste. Does the server accept telnet on the standard port? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 3 13:58:46 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:58:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Mar 3, 8 10:46:52 am" Message-ID: <200803031958.m23JwkiR013176@floodgap.com> > > > > The brackets look OK, but are kinda funny when used in file names, > > > > and you can't use the // in file names at all, for obvious reasons. > > > > > > Oh, come now, not *everything* is Unix. :-) > > > > But most of the rest isn't worth it. ;-) > > Oh, now there is some flame bait! :^) I have to stir the pot a little now and then. ;-) > P.S. Yes, I know you're a bigger Commodore fan than I am. :^) Yet there's endless fascination in the Commodore 8-bit community with writing the next "Unix" for it. A good single-tasking system with proper memory protection or even true virtual memory would be a better goal. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 14:15:45 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:15:45 -0600 Subject: seven segment display history In-Reply-To: <01C87B58.877E50C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C87B58.877E50C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <47CC5C71.1050700@gmail.com> M H Stein wrote: > --------Original Messages: > Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 23:22:16 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: seven segment display history > To: General at priv-edmwaa04.telusplanet.net, > "Discussion at priv-edmwaa04.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Message-ID: <47C90428.4A52403B at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I have something like that with me here in my bag-o-parts... approx 20mm >> by 30mm, with a 2mm-thick body made of a rough, dark ceramic, with a 1mm >> thick glass top. It's a 2.5 digit display with + and -. All the leads >> come through the back of the package in what appears to be a straight- >> through fashion (making it easy to figure out how to hook it up). > > Your description sounds like the Sperry/Beckman gas-discharge displays, e.g.: > http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/trade08-panaplex.htm > I think your part number is in there. > > ----------------Reply: > A little tricky to interface because of the high voltage, keep-alive anodes, > etc. > I may have some of the driver chips though if you're serious. I actually have a bunch of those too, culled from the guts of an old gas pump. I remember rigging up something with a bunch of transistors a couple of years ago just to interface them to some LS-TTL and try them. Nice glow to them. In the context of Apollo displays, I'd figured them to be a lot later - mid '70s or so. (the biggest ones I have are about 3/4" for the actual digits too, a lot smaller than the mocked-up ones on the Apollo computer I saw) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 14:21:48 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:21:48 -0600 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25734A@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25734A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <47CC5DDC.50802@gmail.com> James Fogg wrote: >> For those interested in a snapshot of the way BBS's were 21 years ago, >> point >> your telnet client at landover.no-ip.com > > This bangs me out of putty with haste. Me too, only - helpfully - with a 'busy' message. Try again later, I think! :-) From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Mon Mar 3 14:23:50 2008 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:23:50 +0100 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions Message-ID: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Hello IBM folks, as an absolute (IBM) mainframe dummy I would like to know what an IBM 3088 was used for? I don't know anything about mainframes therefore many of the infos I found on the net don't give much meaning to me. Additional questions: Is its functionality limited to CTC? Can it be used as a standalone system, server, machine, ...? I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. Thanks Gerold From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 3 14:30:42 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:30:42 -0500 Subject: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? In-Reply-To: <0JX400GPE9EKYCW5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <15DFE64713D6@dunfield.com> > >Which is the main reason I'm not 100% convinced the FPU is faulty. But I > >can't get the extended disgnostics to test it, and I don't know how "good" > >it has to be to pass the basic startup test. > > It doesnt other than not jamming the busses. VAX does not need the FPU > to boot. Thats useful to know - now I'm toying with the idea of pulling it off - If the the CPU runs normally, then it would be a pretty clear indication that the FPU is indeed faulty - if the CPU still overheats it would suggest that the problem does in fact lie elsewhere. Not that removing it would be an easy task... :-( But what I'd really like to know, is "how much FPU functionality has to exist to pass the power-on test '9'" ? ... mine DOES pass the power-on FPU test... Does this actually indicate that the FPU is fully (or at least close to fully) functioning? > >If anyone has a running VS2000 or UV2000 and is willing to open it up to > >help me do some comparison testing, here are the things I would most like > >to know: > > I had mine open for temperature testing, thats were I got the 58C > from. I should play with console boot later. > > >[For best results, it would be good if the system were configured to match > >mine - all expansion boards, drives, peripherals etc. disconnected, and > >the uVAX/VS jumper located about 3" directly behind the BNC ethernet connector > >set to the uVAX position, which is AWAY from the BNC connector.] > > Sounds like mine more or less. I cant scope it at this time as the wide > band scope is burried and likely not going to emerge for a while. I > have a 20mhz dual trace for most work handy as it's smaller but it > will not see a 40mhz clock well nor do I use it for that kind of work. I realize it's a lot to ask for someone else to make the measurements, it requires not only removing the cover, but disconnecting the mainboard and flipping it over (on top of some suitble insulating base) so that you can access the component side ... but if anyone happens to have one apart for another reason, please do keep me in mind. If you can get a chance to check out the TEST 101, 102 and 80000106 test for FPU interaction, that would be a help. > Me I'd pull a old MVII cpu card and do the remove and replace of the FPU > and CPU. MicroVAXIIs with good cpus and FPU and bad Qbus interfaces are > not uncommon. I have an uVAXII - and while the 2000 would probably be a more "handy" machine, I'm not ready to sacrifice the uVAXII yet as I'd like to try my hand at getting a Qbus VAX going... If anyone does happen to have a spare VS2000/uVAX2000/uVAXII CPU board, I'd be interested ... even dead/defective ones may be useful, as the CPU & FPU may still be good. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 14:54:46 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:54:46 -0500 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: > I would like to know what an IBM 3088 was used for? These were used to link two mainframes up directly. > Is its functionality limited to CTC? More or less. > Can it be used as a standalone system, server, machine, ...? Not really. I suppose the firmware could be hacked so you could do other fun stuff, but you might as well get a more friendly machine to work on. > I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them > and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. > So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. Likely no, but there are people here that can. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 3 14:58:49 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:58:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920803030844ybc400by6c406968090f884b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920803030844ybc400by6c406968090f884b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080303125656.D37639@shell.lmi.net> > > Here is an odd question for everyone. In a printed article, which > > would be more accurate? "Apple ][", "Apple II", or "Apple 2" > I sense an impending flame war. Everyone uses every kind of moniker > for the A2 platform. > I personally use mostly "Apple II", plus "Apple //". There's the > Apple //, the Apple II Plus (II+), Apple IIe, the Apple IIc (and IIc > Plus or IIc+), and the Apple IIgs. The machine is the Apple II (roman numerals), or Apple 2. The ][ (and ///) were cute FONT variants of the roman numberals. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 3 15:01:07 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:01:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Or, you could just avoid the whole mess alltogether > and call it the "Extremely popular fruit-named > company, 1980's market dominating, expandable personal > computing system". And most people will know what > you're talking about. Or, you could create a major flame war, by calling it "the first personal computer" :-) From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 15:17:17 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:17:17 -0800 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Or, you could just avoid the whole mess alltogether > > and call it the "Extremely popular fruit-named > > company, 1980's market dominating, expandable personal > > computing system". And most people will know what > > you're talking about. > > Or, you could create a major flame war, by calling it "the first personal > computer" :-) > Yes, do! I'll stand back as the users of the Lisp Machines, PDP-8, LINC, IBM 1401, etc. mob you; after the Old Guard has had their turn, those punk kids with their Altairs and their rock and roll music can come in and work you over :) John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 15:24:35 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:24:35 -0700 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CC6C93.7020709@jetnet.ab.ca> John Floren wrote: > Yes, do! I'll stand back as the users of the Lisp Machines, PDP-8, > LINC, IBM 1401, etc. mob you; after the Old Guard has had their turn, > those punk kids with their Altairs and their rock and roll music can > come in and work you over :) In one respect the apple I was the first PC on the simple grounds it was the first computer I know of to use Dram. > John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 3 15:21:51 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:21:51 -0800 Subject: seven segment display history References: <01C87B58.877E50C0@MSE_D03> <20080301121854.GC9265@usap.gov> <47CA32F2.F47AC8C1@cs.ubc.ca> <20080302070929.GC17264@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47CC6BEF.FE88F8A3@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 08:54:10PM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > There is a vendor and part number etched on the face: Sperry SP-738. > > > > Forgot before, Heathkit used those Sperry/Beckman displays in their 70's-era > > digital doodads like clocks, indoor-outdoor thermometers, weather monitors, > > tachs, & c., might be a place to look for schematics for examples of real-world use. > > Oh, yeah. I even have one of those 6-digit Heathkit clocks. Still, the > trick with those is that some of the Sperry/Beckman displays have keep- > alive-anodes, and some do not. From the one link that was recently > posted, it's clear that there was a large variety of displays made back > in the day, and you could select a display for your requirements (especially > how many primary anodes for multiplexing). > > In this case, I have a particular display, one of the more complex ones, > looking for an application; not the other way around. No, I didn't mean to suggest that you would want to re-implement one of the Heathkit designs/apps, just that the Heath schematics might be available and might provide some circuit examples/hints of biasing techniques, drivers, & c. (not always included on spec sheets). e.g.: As it turns out, I have the schematic for the GC-1092 clock here (don't have the clock, just the schematic, which has been hanging around in my files since the 70's). It uses SP-352 displays, and shows the keep-alive cathode and supply, etc. Don't know why that web page refers to the Sperry/Beckman displays as Panaplex, my understanding was Panaplex was a Burroughs trade name for their 7-seg gas-discharge displays. From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 15:25:50 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:25:50 -0600 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 3:17 PM, John Floren wrote: > > Yes, do! I'll stand back as the users of the Lisp Machines, PDP-8, > LINC, IBM 1401, etc. mob you; after the Old Guard has had their turn, > those punk kids with their Altairs and their rock and roll music can > come in and work you over :) Wait! The Chinese and the abacus get first dibs! =D -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 3 15:46:39 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:46:39 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CC71BF.4000002@atarimuseum.com> Man, I'm getting a Compuserve & BBS flamewars flashback headache..... BTW... Atari's are better :-P ;-) Curt John Floren wrote: > On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> > Or, you could just avoid the whole mess alltogether >> > and call it the "Extremely popular fruit-named >> > company, 1980's market dominating, expandable personal >> > computing system". And most people will know what >> > you're talking about. >> >> Or, you could create a major flame war, by calling it "the first personal >> computer" :-) >> >> > > Yes, do! I'll stand back as the users of the Lisp Machines, PDP-8, > LINC, IBM 1401, etc. mob you; after the Old Guard has had their turn, > those punk kids with their Altairs and their rock and roll music can > come in and work you over :) > > John > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 3 15:50:54 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:50:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: "First" (was: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080303135017.W40648@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Josef Chessor wrote: > Wait! The Chinese and the abacus get first dibs! =D followed by Antikytheria From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 3 16:13:43 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:13:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <20080303125656.D37639@shell.lmi.net> References: <9e2403920803030844ybc400by6c406968090f884b@mail.gmail.com> <20080303125656.D37639@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >> Apple //, the Apple II Plus (II+), Apple IIe, the Apple IIc (and IIc >> Plus or IIc+), and the Apple IIgs. > > The machine is the Apple II (roman numerals), or Apple 2. The ][ (and > ///) were cute FONT variants of the roman numberals. AFAIR, the machines display "Apple ][" when booting. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Mar 3 16:12:28 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 17:12:28 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <0JX6004NM5AOHC60@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JX6004NM5AOHC60@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <47CC77CC.1060300@compsys.to> >Allison Parent wrote: >>Bob Armstrong wrote: >> >>The question is who is the interface for. Is this like the SCB1620 interface to provide >>a hard drive to a small system that may not have any other major storage device, >>or is this for a commercial system that has a *Standard* I/O allready? >> >For commercial you have to deal with the holder of the MSCP intellectual rights. >The other issue is MSCP is an intelligent system that has DMA and is able to run >linked lists for queued IO.The pro for MSCP is most all of the DEC OSs had drivers >for it. The minus is complex, firmware intensive, DMA and temporary bus master >and it would try to do some of the buffering that IDE drives already do well. > > Jerome Fine replies: As far as I seem to remember, the patent on MSCP has now expired. I don't believe that copyright applies in this case. But I do agree that if MSCP is possible, that is the way to go since, as Allison states, all of the major DEC OSs already have debugged drivers. >For RT11, the DD (tu58) driver would make a good prtotype as would the HX previously >mentioned. The RT-11 docs cover creating new drivers and VMS docs too. > > I would like to suggest as an alternative to MSCP, use John Wilson's HD: device definitions from Ersatz-11. The RT-11 device driver will be rather easy. In addition, if I am provided with the code for the RK05 and RL02 device drivers for other OSs, I can probably make a good effort to provide the changes needed for the HD: device. But someone else would need to debug the code. >NO, I don't volenteer, way too much going on right now. > > I will provide a suitable HD(X).SYS device driver over and above what John Wilson has already done for RT-11 with a translation table that will handle a 2 TB disk drive. Just send me a test board for a Qbus system. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 3 16:15:25 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:15:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CC71BF.4000002@atarimuseum.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> <47CC71BF.4000002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Man, I'm getting a Compuserve & BBS flamewars flashback headache..... > > BTW... Atari's are better :-P > > > ;-) > > > > > Curt > Not. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 3 16:16:03 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:16:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <242656.58362.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> If the name is printed on the machine (as is normally the case), then use that version! :) Personally I prefer ][ or //, which are more memorable to me than II (yes, I know my roman numerals... eg. MCMXCVIII is 1998 and MMVI is 2006. Ok, bit OTT. Alot of people know roman numerals 1 to 12 from clockfaces, but few know beyond that... or atleast in my experience that is the case). Do any other computers use roman numerals, either in the name or for labelling buttons/switches? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk "Zane H. Healy" wrote: Here is an odd question for everyone. In a printed article, which would be more accurate? "Apple ][", "Apple II", or "Apple 2" Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 16:33:34 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:33:34 -0600 Subject: "First" In-Reply-To: <20080303135017.W40648@shell.lmi.net> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> <20080303135017.W40648@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47CC7CBE.3020604@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Josef Chessor wrote: >> Wait! The Chinese and the abacus get first dibs! =D > > followed by Antikytheria Yes, but did an OS/2 port exist for it? (Sorry, Dan :-) From bob at jfcl.com Mon Mar 3 16:37:11 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:37:11 -0800 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <47CC47F0.1040800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JX000BJM1GYPM12@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200803011746.MAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47C9994A.2080406@jetnet.ab.ca> <006801c87bc7$1cf44ce0$56dce6a0$@com> <47CC18F6.5000306@gmail.com> <003601c87d5a$37839cc0$a68ad640$@com> <47CC47F0.1040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001e01c87d7f$1f902c80$5eb08580$@com> >woodelf (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) >The question is who is the interface for. Is this like the SCB1620 interface to provide >a hard drive to a small system that may not have any other major storage device, >or is this for a commercial system that has a *Standard* I/O allready? Sorry, I disagree. The target system hardware doesn't matter at all - it's the target system _software_ that counts. The SBC6120/PDP8 really has only one viable disk operating system, so all I had to do was make that work and the job was done. The PDP-11 has many disk operating systems, and there's even more if you plan on using this interface in a MicroVAX. I think we're just going in circles, though - somebody else already made this point before me. >Any ideas on how impliment POWER on fail IRQ and restore? Do you mean in the SBC6120? Power fail isn't that complicated - it's just a flag, a skip-on-flag IOT, and an interrupt. It seems pointless, though, since the SBC6120 doesn't have non-volatile main memory. OTOH, the SBC6120 is so low power to start with that you could run it for days on a gel cell - it'd be easier just to provide the whole system with a mini-UPS :-) Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 3 17:02:31 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:02:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: "First" In-Reply-To: <47CC7CBE.3020604@gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> <20080303135017.W40648@shell.lmi.net> <47CC7CBE.3020604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080303150154.G40648@shell.lmi.net> > > followed by Antikytheria On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Yes, but did an OS/2 port exist for it? (Sorry, Dan :-) Probably not even a Linux implementation! From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 17:12:00 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:12:00 -0800 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <242656.58362.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <242656.58362.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220803031512s16675965s2c7cbf65778a1dfa@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > If the name is printed on the machine (as is normally the case), then use that version! :) > > Personally I prefer ][ or //, which are more memorable to me than II (yes, I know my roman numerals... eg. MCMXCVIII is 1998 and MMVI is 2006. Ok, bit OTT. Alot of people know roman numerals 1 to 12 from clockfaces, but few know beyond that... or atleast in my experience that is the case). Do any other computers use roman numerals, either in the name or for labelling buttons/switches? > > The Symbolics keyboards had roman numerals I through IV across the top or on the side, depending on the keyboard. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 17:20:08 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:20:08 -0700 Subject: "First" In-Reply-To: <20080303150154.G40648@shell.lmi.net> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> <20080303135017.W40648@shell.lmi.net> <47CC7CBE.3020604@gmail.com> <20080303150154.G40648@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47CC87A8.4090008@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> followed by Antikytheria > > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Yes, but did an OS/2 port exist for it? (Sorry, Dan :-) > > Probably not even a Linux implementation! > But I heard it had the first Sea programing langauge. Runs and ducks. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 3 17:17:10 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:17:10 -0500 Subject: seven segment display history Message-ID: <01C87D5A.EFED63E0@mandr71> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:21:51 -0800 From: Brent Hilpert Subject: Re: seven segment display history >Don't know why that web page refers to the Sperry/Beckman displays as Panaplex, >my understanding was Panaplex was a Burroughs trade name for their 7-seg >gas-discharge displays. --------- Nixie, Panaplex and Self-Scan were all registered Burroughs trademarks for those respective products and technologies AFAIK. m From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Mar 3 18:20:28 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 00:20:28 +0000 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803032219.m23MIkQT004562@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803032219.m23MIkQT004562@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1CACE575-7A21-4205-9C04-330BFB5B8080@microspot.co.uk> On 3 Mar, 2008, at 22:19, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 30 > Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:16:03 +0000 (GMT) > From: Andrew Burton > > > If the name is printed on the machine (as is normally the case), > then use that version! :) I just got one of mine off the shelf and the lid of the case is labelled "apple ][ plus", without even a capital 'A' as the curve of the lower case 'a' fits into the bite in the apple logo. I think the titles on the cover of the four main manuals also said "][" on them, but I have not checked them. I can't actually remember what they were all for, there was the main reference manual with the circuit diagram in the back which was very useful for the odd machine which misbehaved when first delivered before being shipped to customers - in several instances I traced IC leads which had missed their sockets which were either bent underneath or down the side. There was a manual for DOS 3.3 and its utilities . I think there was an Applesoft manual. I can't remember what the other one was. It was not integer Basic, I never saw a manual for that. Of course there were the also manuals for UCSD Pascal, but they weren't one of the main four. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Mar 3 18:36:24 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 00:36:24 +0000 Subject: front panel display for a modern PC In-Reply-To: <200803021441.m22EfCXi080691@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803021441.m22EfCXi080691@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 2 Mar, 2008, at 14:41, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 23:19:43 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > Well, if I were debugging hardware, I'll take a logic analyzer and a > scope, thank you. I'm not sure how broad the range of hardware > faults is that a bunch of blinking LEDs will indicate. I find that about half of all CPU faults on my 1301 can be found from the front panel, but then it is a remarkable front panel. I can slow the clock rate down to three pulses per second and watch the individual steps in each instruction, watch data shifting through the registers, watch the carry bits in the mill, watch the instructions shifting through the registers etc. I can even run it at one pulse per button press and change the data in the registers and create parity errors and write them to core and read them back and watch the parity checker do its stuff. Not so useful with peripherals though, I find a storage scope is invaluable for them, the more traces the better, so I suppose a logic analyser would be useful, but does one exists for MINUS 6.3 volt logic? I always presumed they were only invented after silicon replaced germanium and so only work with positive logic voltages. Probably out of my price range anyway for home use. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 18:51:39 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:51:39 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803031810.NAA25675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200803031810.NAA25675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <47CC9D1B.3070602@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> The brackets look OK, but are kinda funny when used in file names, >> and you can't use the // in file names at all, for obvious reasons. > > Oh, come now, not *everything* is Unix. :-) And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with slashes in them in UNIX. The only OS I know of that completely prohibits it is Windows. Peace... Sridhar From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 18:55:41 2008 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:55:41 -0800 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <242656.58362.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <242656.58362.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090803031655h392c9ef2oda405207f5d2faa0@mail.gmail.com> Across the top of the Coleco Adam computer Keyboard they used roman numerals for the smart keys Chris On 3/3/08, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > If the name is printed on the machine (as is normally the case), then use > that version! :) > > Personally I prefer ][ or //, which are more memorable to me than II (yes, > I know my roman numerals... eg. MCMXCVIII is 1998 and MMVI is 2006. Ok, bit > OTT. Alot of people know roman numerals 1 to 12 from clockfaces, but few > know beyond that... or atleast in my experience that is the case). Do any > other computers use roman numerals, either in the name or for labelling > buttons/switches? > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: Here is an odd question for > everyone. In a printed article, which > would be more accurate? "Apple ][", "Apple II", or "Apple 2" > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 3 18:56:36 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:56:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CC9D1B.3070602@gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200803031810.NAA25675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47CC9D1B.3070602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080303165518.W40648@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with > slashes in them in UNIX. The only OS I know of that completely > prohibits it is Windows. Even Windoze can't stop us from creating files with "invalid" filenames. You can also create a file named *.* (getting rid of it may be harder) From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 19:08:57 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:08:57 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <20080303165518.W40648@shell.lmi.net> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200803031810.NAA25675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47CC9D1B.3070602@gmail.com> <20080303165518.W40648@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47CCA129.70408@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with >> slashes in them in UNIX. The only OS I know of that completely >> prohibits it is Windows. > > Even Windoze can't stop us from creating files with "invalid" filenames. > > You can also create a file named *.* > (getting rid of it may be harder) Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system character-set really. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 3 19:24:42 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:24:42 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CCA129.70408@gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303165518.W40648@shell.lmi.net> <47CCA129.70408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200803032024.42743.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 March 2008 20:08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with > >> slashes in them in UNIX. The only OS I know of that completely > >> prohibits it is Windows. > > > > Even Windoze can't stop us from creating files with "invalid" > > filenames. > > > > You can also create a file named *.* > > (getting rid of it may be harder) > > Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with > slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system > character-set really. No you can't. The only two characters you can't have in a filename are "/" and NUL, as far as the kernel is concerned. Of course, you can have a "\", but that's properly called a "backslash" not a "slash". :) I ran into this problem at work once; the HSM we use exports itself as an nfs share, and through timezone settings it didn't like, "/" got inserted into filenames that it automatically generated when useres deleted files. I can site a reference even (though a different one than I remember looking at when I was trying out how to fix the HSM): http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/faq/part2/section-2.html I can't think of any UNIX(-alike) kernel that wouldn't interpret a "/" passed to it in a filename as a directory separator. The only way to get around this is to go around the kernel and poke at the filesystem (or filesystem drivers) yourself, to convince them to shoot you in the foot. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From andreww at datanet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 19:27:27 2008 From: andreww at datanet.ab.ca (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:27:27 -0700 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CCA129.70408@gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200803031810.NAA25675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47CC9D1B.3070602@gmail.com> <20080303165518.W40648@shell.lmi.net> <47CCA129.70408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CCA57F.8050508@datanet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with >>> slashes in them in UNIX. The only OS I know of that completely >>> prohibits it is Windows. >> >> >> Even Windoze can't stop us from creating files with "invalid" filenames. >> >> You can also create a file named *.* >> (getting rid of it may be harder) > > > Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with > slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system > character-set really. > > Peace... Sridhar > Unix filenames can't have slashes in them (everything except slash and null is allowed). All Unices that I know of would interpret a path with slashes in it as a path with subdirectories, not a filename. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 19:32:56 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:32:56 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803032024.42743.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303165518.W40648@shell.lmi.net> <47CCA129.70408@gmail.com> <200803032024.42743.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <47CCA6C8.7010605@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 March 2008 20:08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with >>>> slashes in them in UNIX. The only OS I know of that completely >>>> prohibits it is Windows. >>> Even Windoze can't stop us from creating files with "invalid" >>> filenames. >>> >>> You can also create a file named *.* >>> (getting rid of it may be harder) >> Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with >> slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system >> character-set really. > > No you can't. The only two characters you can't have in a filename > are "/" and NUL, as far as the kernel is concerned. Of course, you can > have a "\", but that's properly called a "backslash" not a "slash". :) > > I ran into this problem at work once; the HSM we use exports itself as > an nfs share, and through timezone settings it didn't like, "/" got > inserted into filenames that it automatically generated when useres > deleted files. > > I can site a reference even (though a different one than I remember > looking at when I was trying out how to fix the HSM): > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/faq/part2/section-2.html > > I can't think of any UNIX(-alike) kernel that wouldn't interpret a "/" > passed to it in a filename as a directory separator. The only way to > get around this is to go around the kernel and poke at the filesystem > (or filesystem drivers) yourself, to convince them to shoot you in the > foot. I've done it, so I know it's possible. And I didn't have to do anything in the kernel to do it. That's not to say that I didn't do something very strange in a program I was writing to do it, but the file sat there happily in my filesystem. ls(1) displayed its name just fine. rm(1) couldn't remove it, so I had to do something similarly strange to remove it. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 3 19:56:51 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:56:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CCA57F.8050508@datanet.ab.ca> from Andrew Warkentin at "Mar 3, 8 06:27:27 pm" Message-ID: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> > > Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with > > slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system > > character-set really. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > Unix filenames can't have slashes in them (everything except slash and > null is allowed). All Unices that I know of would interpret a path with > slashes in it as a path with subdirectories, not a filename. Oh really? % touch \/path % ls -l \/path -rw-r--r-- 1 luser luser 0 Mar 3 17:55 /path % pwd /home/luser % ls -l /path ls: /path: No such file or directory % rm \/path % ls -l \/path ls: /path: No such file or directory -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- To generalize is to be an idiot. -- William Blake -------------------------- From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Mar 3 20:00:16 2008 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:00:16 -0500 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out (was: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CC4EE4.9060204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Oh, now there is some flame bait! :^) I'll let this slide since you said >>"most of the rest", but you're getting dangerously close to talking bad >>about Commodore, and more importantly DEC! :^) > >Well I can bad mouth the C64 ... to my knowlage they never had a OS >just Basic in ROM like Coco's and assorted other fruit flavored computers. Ah... but as of '82 or so, you could purchase a Unix-like OS for the CoCo that ran in 64K called OS-9 from MicroWare. People are speaking about writing "Unix for 6502" -now-... What about then? Admittedly, it took a fair investment in hardware, but anything back then that could run a multiuser multiprocessing OS generally did. IMHO, C64 = toy. Honestly, one damn fun toy! As toys, they *rocked!* Played Zork on it with a buddy for many an hour way back when. Graphics were great, sounds were awesome, Basic language *sucked*, peripherals were fairly expensive & damn slow. Basic CoCo = toy, and a crappy one at that. Most games sucked & were very expensive, peripherals were even more expensive, but awfully fast. At least the extended Basic didn't *completely* suck. Put enough money into a good printer, floppy drive, OS-9, languages that didn't suck (Basic09 didn't come bundled with OS-9L1 then) and you had a system with the power that a C64 couldn't touch... but the games still sucked[1]. ;-) [1] Until the CoCo3 - Rogue rocked on the CoCo; sucked on the IBM, didn't exist on the C64. There was a game called Micro[mumble] Mission[2] or somesuch - I remember reading a review where they compared the CoCo vs. IBM versions (dunno if they released it for the C64) - the CoCo version got 8/10, the IBM 3/10. If it came out for the C128, it prolly would've gotten a 10/10. ;-) [2] You were a "miniaturized doctor" in a little capsule traversing the bloodstream of a body healing illnesses & fighting bacteria & viruses; too many margaritas tonite to really remember a game I never had & hadn't even tried to remember for over 1.5 decades... ;-) If you haven't noticed: Lumping the CoCo with the C64... well... thems is fightin' words to some! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Mar 3 20:01:57 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:01:57 -0700 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> References: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <47CCAD95.7080306@Rikers.org> timr at slop:~$ touch \/path touch: cannot touch `/path': Permission denied timr at slop:~$ uname -a Linux slop 2.6.24-timriker #1 SMP Sun Feb 17 01:36:19 MST 2008 i686 GNU/Linux which *nix are you on? just curious. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 3 20:06:27 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CCAD95.7080306@Rikers.org> from Tim Riker at "Mar 3, 8 07:01:57 pm" Message-ID: <200803040206.m2426Rqf015822@floodgap.com> > timr at slop:~$ touch \/path > touch: cannot touch `/path': Permission denied > timr at slop:~$ uname -a > Linux slop 2.6.24-timriker #1 SMP Sun Feb 17 01:36:19 MST 2008 i686 > GNU/Linux > > which *nix are you on? just curious. This is OS X. Just for yuks, I tried it on NetBSD and got the same error you did, so score one for Apple. For the record, because someone will say "but Macs use : for directories!" -- % touch ":path" % ls -l ":path" -rw-r--r-- 1 luser luser 0 Mar 3 18:04 :path % ls -l ":" ls: :: No such file or directory % rm ":path" -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My Pink Floyd code: v1.2a s BO 1/0/pw tinG 0? 0 Relics 2 8 <6mar98> -------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 3 20:09:03 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:09:03 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> References: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200803032109.03709.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 March 2008 20:56, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with > > > slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system > > > character-set really. > > > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > Unix filenames can't have slashes in them (everything except slash > > and null is allowed). All Unices that I know of would interpret a > > path with slashes in it as a path with subdirectories, not a > > filename. > > Oh really? > > % touch \/path > % ls -l \/path > -rw-r--r-- 1 luser luser 0 Mar 3 17:55 /path > % pwd > /home/luser > % ls -l /path > ls: /path: No such file or directory > % rm \/path > % ls -l \/path > ls: /path: No such file or directory What version of UNIX is that? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Mar 3 20:11:20 2008 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:11:20 -0500 Subject: *nix & slashfilenames In-Reply-To: <47CCAD95.7080306@Rikers.org> References: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080303210833.03fa0fb8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tim Riker may have mentioned these words: >timr at slop:~$ touch \/path >touch: cannot touch `/path': Permission denied >timr at slop:~$ uname -a >Linux slop 2.6.24-timriker #1 SMP Sun Feb 17 01:36:19 MST 2008 i686 >GNU/Linux > >which *nix are you on? just curious. I was too, because it didn't work on this either: Linux mail.30below.com 2.4.20-8 #1 Thu Mar 13 17:18:24 EST 2003 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux Maybe 2.2? Now you've given me one heckuva reason to spark up the latest Vcc (that's not +5v, it's the latest virtual CoCo[1] from David Keil) & try it on OS-9. [1] http://vcc6809.bravehost.com/ Yea, a lame attempt at bringing it ontopic, but at least it was an attempt! ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 20:16:56 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:16:56 +1100 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out (was: Apple ][/II/2 References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com><200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Merchberger To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:00 PM Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out (was: Apple ][/II/2 >Well I can bad mouth the C64 ... to my knowlage they never had a OS >just Basic in ROM like Coco's and assorted other fruit flavored computers. Well, there was ACE for starters - ACE is an alternative uni-tasking operating system for the C128 and C64 that provides a Unix-like command shell. And GEOS for a full GUI. And others as well. > People are speaking about writing "Unix for 6502" -now-... What about > then? UNIX-128 was released for the C128. cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org // From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Mar 3 20:23:45 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:23:45 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: <47CCB2B1.6040303@msm.umr.edu> Gerold Pauler wrote: > Hello IBM folks, > > as an absolute (IBM) mainframe dummy > I would like to know what an IBM 3088 was used for? > they were a crosspoint switch for channels. The use for them could be channel to channel, or you could also use them to reassign cabling if you had a disaster plan or emergency plan. They had the unique capability to actually function with the power off of them with the last selected configuration. I do know we tried it with the unit we had. We could switch 3880's between a 4381 and a 9221 when we needed to for testing in our case. My understanding is they were developed for airline res center use and a lot of their capability was put in for that use. There was the capability to configure them to have two switch capabilities set up in their "firmware" whatever that was, and if the power was present to them, but not necessarily any CPUs functional, you could hit a switch on the front to select between configurations directly on the 3088. In that mode you could perhaps have a large comm setup like a Res center would have connected to alternate mainframes, and on the other side you could configure up switchable dasd farms so you could switch between those if need be. I don't know of a lot of systems which would work with the shared DASD, so it had limited use on that side outside of test switching, as most applications would want to drive redundant dasd if need be. I know that Brian Knittel on this list at one time had some mainframe as does Patrick Finnegan, but Patrick may have all Escon now, and not have the interest in the 3088 parallel channel stuff anymore. Jim From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Mar 3 20:31:03 2008 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:31:03 -0500 Subject: *nix & slashfilenames In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080303210833.03fa0fb8@mail.30below.com> References: <47CCAD95.7080306@Rikers.org> <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080303212712.03f696f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Roger Merchberger may have mentioned these words: >Now you've given me one heckuva reason to spark up the latest Vcc (that's >not +5v, it's the latest virtual CoCo[1] from David Keil) & try it on OS-9. > >[1] http://vcc6809.bravehost.com/ I did just that - boy howdy does OS-9 boot fast at even an emulated 10Mhz! ;-) Admittedly, they're just quick tests (the touch utility comes with NitrOS9) but I couldn't make a filename with either '/' or '\' - it assumes the '/' as part of the path, and just drops '\' and anything after it & just creates the "prefix" part. I didn't peek/poke/dEd/etc. with the FATs or anything... Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 3 20:34:59 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 02:34:59 +0000 Subject: *nix & slashfilenames Message-ID: <030420080234.2329.47CCB552000E78650000091922230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: Roger Merchberger > > Rumor has it that Tim Riker may have mentioned these words: > >timr at slop:~$ touch \/path > >touch: cannot touch `/path': Permission denied > >timr at slop:~$ uname -a > >Linux slop 2.6.24-timriker #1 SMP Sun Feb 17 01:36:19 MST 2008 i686 > >GNU/Linux > > > >which *nix are you on? just curious. > > I was too, because it didn't work on this either: > > Linux mail.30below.com 2.4.20-8 #1 Thu Mar 13 17:18:24 EST 2003 i686 athlon > i386 GNU/Linux > > Maybe 2.2? Taking a look at the ext3 source (it's in my mental cache from the book project), there's no escaping of the '/' character. In __link_path_walk(), it clearly splits on '/' and doesn't look at the previous character at all. To bring it back on topic (and because I was curious), I just pulled out my copy of Lions and in 6th edition namei(), it's the same thing. It definitely loops looking for '/' with no regard to the previous character. So, the old and the new both do not recognize a file with '/' in the name. I'm not sufficiently motivated to look through the BSD FFS :-) BLS From evan at snarc.net Mon Mar 3 20:47:59 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:47:59 -0500 Subject: VCF East 5.0 Message-ID: <010d01c87da2$29c10a30$f750f945@evan> Since Pat F. is holding VCF Midwest early this year, we decided to balance things out by holding VCF East later this year. So, VCF East 5.0 will be the weekend of September 13-14. Same place as the last two years -- InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey. This year there's no special theme, but there will be a special event -- the beta opening of our computer museum. We're going from the current 12x10-foot "preview" room into 800 sq. ft.! Details to be announced later. - Evan From andreww at datanet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 21:30:05 2008 From: andreww at datanet.ab.ca (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:30:05 -0700 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> References: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <47CCC23D.4010202@datanet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with >>>slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system >>>character-set really. >>> >>>Peace... Sridhar >>> >>> >>> >>Unix filenames can't have slashes in them (everything except slash and >>null is allowed). All Unices that I know of would interpret a path with >>slashes in it as a path with subdirectories, not a filename. >> >> > >Oh really? > >% touch \/path >% ls -l \/path >-rw-r--r-- 1 luser luser 0 Mar 3 17:55 /path >% pwd >/home/luser >% ls -l /path >ls: /path: No such file or directory >% rm \/path >% ls -l \/path >ls: /path: No such file or directory > > > Doesn't work for me as a regular user. I get: $ touch \/path touch: /path: Permission denied As root, it works, but it creates a file called "path" in the root directory, not a file called "/path" in the current directory. Escaping the slash doesn't change its meaning, since the handling of slashes is done by the kernel (or equivalent), not the shell (backslash only makes the shell treat special characters as literal characters). From andreww at datanet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 21:38:45 2008 From: andreww at datanet.ab.ca (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:38:45 -0700 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com><200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> Lance Lyon wrote: >> People are speaking about writing "Unix for 6502" -now-... What about >> then? > > > UNIX-128 was released for the C128. > > cheers, > > Lance > > // http://www.commodore128.org // > I don't think Unix 128 is multi-tasking. I'm not sure, though, because it didn't run in VICE or MESS when I last tried (does anyone know if there is an emulator that can run it?). I think it is something like a Unixish "shell" written in BASIC. There is also LUnix/LNG, which is a full multitasking operating system for the C64 and C128 which resembles a Unix (although it isn't quite what I would consider a true Unix). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 22:28:26 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:28:26 -0700 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com><200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Warkentin wrote: > Lance Lyon wrote: > >>> People are speaking about writing "Unix for 6502" -now-... What about >>> then? >> >> >> UNIX-128 was released for the C128. >> >> cheers, >> >> Lance >> >> // http://www.commodore128.org // >> > I don't think Unix 128 is multi-tasking. I'm not sure, though, because > it didn't run in VICE or MESS when I last tried (does anyone know if > there is an emulator that can run it?). I think it is something like a > Unixish "shell" written in BASIC. > > There is also LUnix/LNG, which is a full multitasking operating system > for the C64 and C128 which resembles a Unix (although it isn't quite > what I would consider a true Unix). CP/M card's , do they count as a OS. :) I suspect any OS using the 6502 can't have multi-tasking OS because you can't change page 0 or the stack page. > . > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Mar 3 22:42:32 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:42:32 -0600 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com><200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47CCD338.8070807@jbrain.com> woodelf wrote: > > I suspect any OS using the 6502 can't have multi-tasking OS > because you can't change page 0 or the stack page. Define "change"? LUnix and BOS (unfinished multitasker from the creator of ACE), as well as my BRIX could "change" zpage and stack on a 6502. It took either using the REU DMA or simply copying the page to another location in memory, but it worked. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 3 22:51:22 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:51:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Mar 3, 8 09:28:26 pm" Message-ID: <200803040451.m244pMdv008554@floodgap.com> > CP/M card's , do they count as a OS. :) > I suspect any OS using the 6502 can't have multi-tasking OS > because you can't change page 0 or the stack page. Yes, but you can still swap them in software. This involves a (relatively) expensive copy operation, but things like REUs make that easy to stomach; the REC could even be thought of as a 'stealth MMU' (even though it's not really remapping anything, its fast copy/swap achieves a similar effect). Or you can go the software 6502 approach. But I wouldn't know anything about that. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LET'S GO FORWARD ... INTO THE PAST! ---------------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 22:59:26 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:59:26 -0700 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCD338.8070807@jbrain.com> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com><200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CCD338.8070807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <47CCD72E.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Brain wrote: > woodelf wrote: >> >> I suspect any OS using the 6502 can't have multi-tasking OS >> because you can't change page 0 or the stack page. > Define "change"? LUnix and BOS (unfinished multitasker from the creator > of ACE), as well as my BRIX could "change" zpage and stack on a 6502. > It took either using the REU DMA or simply copying the page to another > location in memory, but it worked. A) Dma is cheating B) Well two tty's at 110 baud must be high speed multi-tasking :) > Jim > > > . > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 3 23:00:22 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:00:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCD72E.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Mar 3, 8 09:59:26 pm" Message-ID: <200803040500.m2450MnC014826@floodgap.com> > > Define "change"? LUnix and BOS (unfinished multitasker from the creator > > of ACE), as well as my BRIX could "change" zpage and stack on a 6502. > > It took either using the REU DMA or simply copying the page to another > > location in memory, but it worked. > > A) Dma is cheating So use the 128. The MMU will do that for you 'for real'. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Do not use for personal hygiene. -- Actual label, toilet brush ------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 3 23:04:22 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:04:22 -0700 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCD72E.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com><200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CCD338.8070807@jbrain.com> <47CCD72E.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47CCD856.5080403@jetnet.ab.ca> woodelf wrote: > A) Dma is cheating > B) Well two tty's at 110 baud must be high speed multi-tasking :) > Come to think of it, both the COCO and the C64 had to bit bang serial data. I know on the COCO a 300 baud modem was pushing the COCO. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Mar 3 23:12:51 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:12:51 -0600 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCD72E.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com><200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CCD338.8070807@jbrain.com> <47CCD72E.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47CCDA53.9030201@jbrain.com> woodelf wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: >> woodelf wrote: >>> >>> I suspect any OS using the 6502 can't have multi-tasking OS >>> because you can't change page 0 or the stack page. >> Define "change"? LUnix and BOS (unfinished multitasker from the >> creator of ACE), as well as my BRIX could "change" zpage and stack on >> a 6502. It took either using the REU DMA or simply copying the page >> to another location in memory, but it worked. > > A) Dma is cheating > B) Well two tty's at 110 baud must be high speed multi-tasking :) > A) Fine, if that's the game we're playing, direct zpage to non-zpage copy it is. B) You did not specify high speed. You specified multi-tasking. I would agree 5 minutes between task is not multi-tasking, but all 3 of the examples noted could do a task switch in 4096 cycles, or 4ms. I think that qualifies for speedy. Tasks were switched on the Jiffy CLOCK as part of the 50/60 Hz IRQ, meaning they each got about 12000 cycles of time. Definitely speedy enough for a 1MHz machine. jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 3 23:02:31 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 00:02:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CC9D1B.3070602@gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200803031810.NAA25675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47CC9D1B.3070602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200803040525.AAA04304@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with > slashes in them in UNIX. The only OS I know of that completely > prohibits it is Windows. There's been a lot of sloppy terminology floating around in this thread, and have some little expertise in the area - I've been doing system programming, on each side of the user/kernel divide, for decades, and I wrote my own user-land code to read a popular Unix filesystem.... "Filename" is an ambiguous term. The Unix file APIs traditionally have exactly two special byte values: 0x00 and '/'. The former is a string terminator; the latter is a pathname component separator. While it can look sort of as though you can use a / in pathnames by creating directories, it's a rather poor emulation; put a slash at the beginning or end of your "filename", or try to use two consecutive slashes as distinct from just one, and the fiction that you're using a / as just another character in a filename falls apart fast. That said, there _are_ some circumstances under which some systems will let a / sneak into a pathname component at some level. Some NFS server implementations do not do such checking, depending on the client to do it if it's to be done at all, and NFS clients that aren't traditional Unices can "offend" in this regard. (The example I've usually seen cited is Macs from the HFS days, before OS X moved to Unix APIs; they used : as a pathname separator, with / as an ordinary character. I've seen it said that more recent NFS clients for them swap : and / in the client code to avoid exactly this problem with Unix NFS servers.) But such "filenames" aren't usable on the server even when created, since the Unix APIs generally treat / as a pathname separator rather than a pathname component character, even when pathname components containing slashes exist. (You can get them out, with things like ls, but anything that passes string pathnames into the kernel can't touch them. Some systems have APIs, designed for use by things like NFS servers, that can let you at them, but they're difficult to use and usually require privileged access anyway.) It would be possible to design an alternative API, such something based on counted lists of counted strings, that did not have any reserved octet values. This could work to a point, but code that used the additional capabilities this provided would produce on-disk data not usable through the older APIs. Backslashes are not special to the filesystem in any Unix I know of. But they *are* special to the shell; to pick an example I've seen mentioned upthread, "touch \/path" to most shells is equivalent to just "touch /path", because the \ is treated by the shell as quoting the /, which doesn't do anything because / is not special to the shell. (By the time touch gets the pathname and passes it off to the kernel, the quoting has been lost; touch has no way to tell that the / was quoted at the shell level.) If you double the \ to get it past the shell, or you use some interface to which \ is not special, then \/path is a thing named "path" in a directory named "\", just as a/bcde is a thing named "bcde" in a directory named "a". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 3 23:33:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:33:01 -0800 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803040432.m244WcT4010793@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803040432.m244WcT4010793@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47CC6E8D.20113.2D515CA@cclist.sydex.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with >slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system >character-set really. Why all this talk about U**X? CP/M allows pretty much anything in a filename. I'm particularly fond of the file names with backspaces and carriage return-linefeed pairs in them. The problem with using "][" instead of "II" that text-to-speech programs get tonguetied trying to parse it. :) Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 3 23:53:18 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:53:18 -0800 Subject: "First" In-Reply-To: <47CC7CBE.3020604@gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080303130024.G37639@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> <20080303135017.W40648@shell.lmi.net> <47CC7CBE.3020604@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:33:34 -0600 > > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Josef Chessor wrote: >>> Wait! The Chinese and the abacus get first dibs! =D >> >> followed by Antikytheria > > Yes, but did an OS/2 port exist for it? (Sorry, Dan :-) Hi The Antikytheria could only single task while most large abacus' could multitask with ease. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 00:04:55 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:04:55 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: Hi What I'd like to know is where is a good source for DTL chips? While most can be replaced with a TTL, except the 8 input nand. It can be replaced if it is just used as an 8 input but if the circuit uses the diode expansion pin, you must use the DTL chip. Also, I'd love to know what numbers were used for this part by the different manufactures? It seems that each had their own numbering system. Anchor Electronic has a few DTLs but I have no cross reference to know what they are. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 00:24:41 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 00:24:41 -0600 Subject: Craigs: Apple // 80-col cards Message-ID: <51ea77730803032224k57d73e3vba1e90979bfd2e27@mail.gmail.com> Not mine, just spotted them here locally: http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/sys/594539036.html From axelsson at acc.umu.se Mon Mar 3 08:51:36 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:51:36 +0100 Subject: VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000 CPU/FPU overheating? In-Reply-To: <200803030827.DAA22023@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0JX3003DBRVTVT32@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200803030827.DAA22023@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <47CC1078.9070409@acc.umu.se> Maybe a stupid solution, but couldn't the over heating be solved by lowering the clock... if possible? My theory after following this thread is that the overheating was caused by a once borderline processor running too hot for too long causing migration of dopants in the transistors and increasing the static power drain. I once had a x86 server that I overclocked for a year (calculating prime numbers) running at full load until it started to become erratic. It was rock solid for a year and then I lowered the frequency to the marked frequency and five years later it was still running rock solid. I finally had to upgrade when I was /. by Ericsson after my web address was publicised on the intranet of Ericsson on a friday afternoon. Load was at 35 and rising fast. :-D Good luck! /G?ran der Mouse wrote: >>> Is the [uV2k] FPU socketed? >>> > > >> It's soldered down and not removeable with out the right tools for >> handling high lead count surface mount. >> > > >> Me I'd pull a old MVII cpu card and do the remove and replace of the >> FPU and CPU. MicroVAXIIs with good cpus and FPU and bad Qbus >> interfaces are not uncommon. >> > > The uVII and the uV2k use identical FPU and CPU chips, even down to the > packaging? That's definitely a tidbit worth remembering. > > I don't think I have a suitable uV2 donor card just now, though. :( > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From michel.rougie at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 15:51:51 2008 From: michel.rougie at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michel_Rougi=E9?=) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:51:51 +0100 Subject: I've got MS Money version 3 Message-ID: <47cc7302.0aec660a.5745.ffff812f@mx.google.com> Hello Kelly Found today your oooooold message. I still use Money 3 since 1994 even with my new dual core Centrino! It's really the best personal finances management tool! If you steel need the install disk, I can help you! Kind regards Michel from Paris --------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Leavitt CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Mar 31 19:13:10 CST 2005 * Previous message: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? * Next message: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ Copy right is 1996, so it is almost on topic. Does anyone have an install disk for this? A very good friend of mine needs to move his data to a new computer this weekend and he can't find his install disk. What amazes me is that he's been running this since 1996 without losing data once. Thanks for any help, (let the scolding begin) Kelly _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> * Previous message: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? * Next message: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list From bqt at softjar.se Mon Mar 3 16:39:54 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:39:54 +0100 Subject: Q-bus to CF In-Reply-To: <200803032220.m23MIkQV004562@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803032220.m23MIkQV004562@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47CC7E3A.9020004@softjar.se> "Bob Armstrong" skrev: > >> Sridhar Ayengar (ploopster at gmail.com) wrote: > >> Or if you're willing to write an MSCP layer into your controller firmware. > > I actually think this is the "right" way to solve the problem in the case > of the PDP-11 and VAX, but then controller is no longer a simple device. I'd say it would definitely be the right way. What people seem to forget (or ignore) is that unless you decide to emulate an existing DEC device, you not only need to write a device driver for the OS, which sure is some work, but doable. But you also need to write some bootstrap code, which needs to be placed in a rom. That will quickly get a bit more ugly... There is a big difference to a PDP-8, which this has been compared to up until now. The PDP-8 is really simple in design, and so is booting one, usually. A PDP-11 is way more complex to boot. Not only do you need the initial boot code, in the boot ROM. You then also need the bootstrap for the OS, which resides on disk. I don't know about RT-11, but for RSX, this is a separate piece of a driver which in no way is related to the device driver that you use once the system is booted. And this piece is tightly integrated with the OS and is embedded deep inside stuff. So, unless you want a disk that you can't boot from, you have a big chunk of work to get it working. So doing an emulation of an existing device makes much more sense. And of all the existing devices, MSCP is by far the best choice when picking something to map to modern hardware. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Mar 3 18:54:30 2008 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:54:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90803011051r3eae4ed9o68ff3cad328f41db@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90803011051r3eae4ed9o68ff3cad328f41db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You need to start your RSTS installation over completely. Simply restoring INSTAL.BCK will create a huge mess. What you should be doing to install layered products is the command @[0,1]INSTAL DECNET This will start the RSTS/E automated install procedure and subsequent configuration script. Note: RSTS/E 9.6 cannot be installed on a disk larger than 512MB. There is a bug that comes up when attempting to install layered products (they will hang during random parts of the installation script) if you violate this. DECnet does this especially, when attempting to detect network devices. My suggested product order of installation is: RSTS/E 9.6 DECnet/E 4.1 Language products. FMS-11 (depends on languages to be installed first) I must also stress that each language be tested to compile and run programs before installation of FMS-11 should you choose to install it. Good luck, Julian On Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Glen Slick wrote: > Just out of curiosity I installed RSTS/E 9.6 on a SIMH PDP-11 and > thought I'll try to install DECNET 4.1, but I've come up empty trying > to find any info on how that is done. I know almost nothing about > RSTS/E yet but I'm trying to slowly learn. > > I figured out that I could RESTORE INSTAL.BCK from the DECNET 4.1 tape > image and that resulted in just a few files, one of which was > DECNET.COM. That appeared to be an installation script, but it is not > clear if that is something that is intended to be manually invoked, or > if something else invokes it. I tried invoking it manually with some > guesses for the parameters, but that didn't get me anywhere. > > Is there an installation guide on the net somewhere that I haven't > been able to find? > > Does anyone have a sample SIMH session transcript showing the proper > way to install DECNET 4.1 on RSTS/E 9.6? > From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Mar 3 22:50:43 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:50:43 -0800 Subject: Looking for Quadra 900/950 in Puget Sound area... Message-ID: <47CCD523.5060402@msu.edu> Anyone got one they're looking to get rid of/sell/trade? My venerable IIfx's RAM has gone bad and rather than pay stupid prices for 64-pin simms (which are just going to be harder and harder to find) I'd like to get something that takes standard stuff. And while I'm doing that I might as well get something large and heavy :). Thanks! Josh From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 4 02:06:05 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 03:06:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Q-bus to CF In-Reply-To: <47CC7E3A.9020004@softjar.se> References: <200803032220.m23MIkQV004562@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CC7E3A.9020004@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200803040808.DAA05128@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > What people seem to forget (or ignore) is that unless you decide to > emulate an existing DEC device, you not only need to write a device > driver for the OS, which sure is some work, but doable. But you also > need to write some bootstrap code, Only if you want/need it to be bootable. To use the MicroVAX-II example (because that's what I have), I'd be perfectly content to netboot to get the OS kernel onto the machine, provided it has local disk once it gets there. Hence the Qbus-IDE project. Hence the plan to maybe even get that odd SCSI card (the KZQSA was it? I forget) working. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 4 02:45:19 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 00:45:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff Message-ID: Some of you are aware of a big snit over recent changes by Ebay. If you aren't, the basic rundown is that beginning May 1, these changes take place: 1) Sellers are no longer able to leave negative feedback. 2) Final fees are hiked 67%. 3) Listing fees drop by a few cents. This is annoying (I'd like to use stronger words) people greatly and another boycott is planned soon. I'm pondering leaving Ebay if they keep this abuse of their customers (ie me). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bear at typewritten.org Tue Mar 4 03:41:02 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 01:41:02 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. > > Likely no, but there are people here that can. I certainly can use a 3088 or two. I've never seen one, though. How big are they? ok bear From ats at offog.org Tue Mar 4 04:38:37 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 10:38:37 +0000 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> (Cameron Kaiser's message of "Mon\, 3 Mar 2008 17\:56\:51 -0800 \(PST\)") References: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser writes: > Oh really? > % touch \/path > % ls -l \/path > -rw-r--r-- 1 luser luser 0 Mar 3 17:55 /path > % pwd > /home/luser > % ls -l /path > ls: /path: No such file or directory If your machine *really* does that, not only do you have very different filesystem behaviour from every other Unix system I've seen, but also a very unusual shell, since it's not expanding \/ to /. Try "echo ls -l \/path" and "echo ls -l /path" -- do they give different output for you? Are you sure that something else didn't delete /path between the last two commands? If I do that on a MacOS X machine, the last command (correctly) gives me the same output as the previous "ls". The one oddity related to slashes in filenames in the POSIX spec is that absolute paths starting with two slashes "may be interpreted in an implementation-defined manner"; some systems use(d) this for distributed filesystems. -- Adam Sampson From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Tue Mar 4 06:23:20 2008 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:23:20 +0100 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: <1204633400.1013.3.camel@bladerider.local> Am Di, den 04.03.2008 schrieb r.stricklin um 10:41: > On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them > >> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. > >> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. > > > > Likely no, but there are people here that can. > > I certainly can use a 3088 or two. > > I've never seen one, though. How big are they? > I don't know because I haven't seen them yet. But I will have a look at them this week. So at the weekend I can give an update. Maybe with some pics too. -- Gerold From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Tue Mar 4 06:38:02 2008 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:38:02 +0100 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <47CCB2B1.6040303@msm.umr.edu> References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> <47CCB2B1.6040303@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <1204634282.1013.18.camel@bladerider.local> Am Di, den 04.03.2008 schrieb jim s um 03:23: > Gerold Pauler wrote: > > I would like to know what an IBM 3088 was used for? > > > they were a crosspoint switch for channels. The use for them could be > channel to channel, or you could also use them to reassign cabling if > you had a disaster plan or emergency plan. > ... > Jim Thanks for the interesting info. The more I learn about this interesting machine, the more likely it is that although interesting I don't have any use for it :-( -- Gerold From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 07:10:06 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:10:06 -0500 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I stopped selling on ebay long ago, and only bought things rarely. they kept various stupid games and rules which totally ruined it. I was ripped off a few times and Ebay did nothing about the sellers (neg feedback didnt help) so whats the point? is there a good auction site that treats people properly? if not, sounds like a great business opportunity. Dan. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 00:45:19 -0800 > From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff > > > Some of you are aware of a big snit over recent changes by Ebay. If you > aren't, the basic rundown is that beginning May 1, these changes take > place: 1) Sellers are no longer able to leave negative feedback. 2) > Final fees are hiked 67%. 3) Listing fees drop by a few cents. This is > annoying (I'd like to use stronger words) people greatly and another > boycott is planned soon. I'm pondering leaving Ebay if they keep this > abuse of their customers (ie me). > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? _________________________________________________________________ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 07:14:04 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 05:14:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CC9D1B.3070602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <915679.4630.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> The brackets look OK, but are kinda funny when > used in file names, > >> and you can't use the // in file names at all, > for obvious reasons. > > > > Oh, come now, not *everything* is Unix. :-) > > And there really isn't any reason one cannot create > filenames with > slashes in them in UNIX. The only OS I know of that > completely > prohibits it is Windows. True - you CAN create filenames with forward slashes in them. You CAN do pretty much anything you want to in a UNIX environment. I think the only thing you CAN'T call a file is . or .. But, if you do, it's a PITA to work with that file later... I should have said that "it's not a good idea" to create filenames with slashes in them. Ack! I didn't intend to start a flame war! -Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 07:21:30 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:21:30 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> References: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <47CD4CDA.80403@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with >>> slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system >>> character-set really. >>> >>> Peace... Sridhar >>> >> Unix filenames can't have slashes in them (everything except slash and >> null is allowed). All Unices that I know of would interpret a path with >> slashes in it as a path with subdirectories, not a filename. > > Oh really? > > % touch \/path > % ls -l \/path > -rw-r--r-- 1 luser luser 0 Mar 3 17:55 /path > % pwd > /home/luser > % ls -l /path > ls: /path: No such file or directory > % rm \/path > % ls -l \/path > ls: /path: No such file or directory That's exactly the behavior I got when I created a file with a slash in it. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 07:22:10 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:22:10 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CCAD95.7080306@Rikers.org> References: <200803040156.m241uppM011504@floodgap.com> <47CCAD95.7080306@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <47CD4D02.7010909@gmail.com> Tim Riker wrote: > timr at slop:~$ touch \/path > touch: cannot touch `/path': Permission denied > timr at slop:~$ uname -a > Linux slop 2.6.24-timriker #1 SMP Sun Feb 17 01:36:19 MST 2008 i686 > GNU/Linux > > which *nix are you on? just curious. AIX Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 07:30:44 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:30:44 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CC6E8D.20113.2D515CA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803040432.m244WcT4010793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CC6E8D.20113.2D515CA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47CD4F04.4040600@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Careful, Chuck. I actually wrote the below: >> Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with >> slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system >> character-set really. > Why all this talk about U**X? CP/M allows pretty much anything in a > filename. I'm particularly fond of the file names with backspaces > and carriage return-linefeed pairs in them. > > The problem with using "][" instead of "II" that text-to-speech > programs get tonguetied trying to parse it. :) I can imagine. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 07:34:08 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:34:08 -0500 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: <47CD4FD0.8080606@gmail.com> r.stricklin wrote: > > On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >> >> Likely no, but there are people here that can. > > I certainly can use a 3088 or two. As can I. Probably more than two, if they're available. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 4 07:55:06 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 05:55:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: / in names was Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: from Adam Sampson at "Mar 4, 8 10:38:37 am" Message-ID: <200803041355.m24Dt6Pg017206@floodgap.com> > > Oh really? > > % touch \/path > > % ls -l \/path > > -rw-r--r-- 1 luser luser 0 Mar 3 17:55 /path > > % pwd > > /home/luser > > % ls -l /path > > ls: /path: No such file or directory > > If your machine *really* does that, not only do you have very > different filesystem behaviour from every other Unix system I've seen, > but also a very unusual shell, since it's not expanding \/ to /. Try > "echo ls -l \/path" and "echo ls -l /path" -- do they give different > output for you? Well, I take this back. I'm not able to duplicate it now, so I'm not sure what's changed. FWIW, it's tcsh and Tiger on an HFSJ filesystem. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you had any brains at all, you'd be dangerous. -------------------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 08:42:56 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 06:42:56 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: > From: bear at typewritten.org > > > On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >> >> Likely no, but there are people here that can. > > I certainly can use a 3088 or two. > > I've never seen one, though. How big are they? > > ok > bear Hi I never saw a 3088 but I did see a 3081. As I recall, it was about 16 full height racks layed out like a cross except it had two cross bars. There were a lot of changes between these models. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 08:44:08 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:44:08 -0500 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0803040644w56d0b3bal4e9e6ace04354104@mail.gmail.com> I've read articles and heard interviews from pundits who say eBay is successful in spite of itself. They abuse their customers, make stupid purchases (Skype?) and haven't really made their site better in any meaningful way. While most web companies are moving to dynamic and clean, Google-style web interfaces, eBay keeps adding more and more clutter and annoying ads everywhere. Not to mention their search engine gets worse and worse. As for rate hikes - I think eBay is going to discover the Laffer curve effect pretty soon. At some point raising prices won't generate any more revenue, I think they are well beyond that point by now. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 08:54:37 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:54:37 -0500 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: <47CD62AD.8020706@gmail.com> dwight elvey wrote: >> From: bear at typewritten.org >> >> >> On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >>>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >>> Likely no, but there are people here that can. >> I certainly can use a 3088 or two. >> >> I've never seen one, though. How big are they? >> >> ok >> bear > > Hi > I never saw a 3088 but I did see a 3081. As I recall, it was about > 16 full height racks layed out like a cross except it had two cross > bars. There were a lot of changes between these models. Nowhere near the same kind of hardware. A 3081 is a large system. A 3088 is a peripheral. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 4 10:05:01 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:05:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <915679.4630.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <915679.4630.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200803041609.LAA07389@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with >> slashes in them in UNIX. There is, actually: the API doesn't permit it. Unless your "filenames" means pathnames (rather than pathname components), in which case it's true but trivially uninteresting. Some systems have APIs (or other interfaces, such as the NFS server network interface) that permit getting a slash into a pathname component, but to the extent that that's possible, I don't think it's fair to call them Unix, because the Unix filesystem APIs all treat slashes as pathname component separators. > True - you CAN create filenames with forward slashes in them. What OSes are you two using, and how are you creating these "filenames" containing slashes? Whatever they are, in this respect, they certainly aren't "Unix". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Mar 4 10:12:05 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 10:12:05 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 55, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <200803040432.m244WcSw010793@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803040432.m244WcSw010793@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 22:32 -0600 3/3/08, "Merch" wrote: >Now you've given me one heckuva reason to spark up the latest Vcc (that's >not +5v, it's the latest virtual CoCo[1] from David Keil) & try it on OS-9. > >[1] http://vcc6809.bravehost.com/ Dang it! Somebody needs to donate a Mac or linux box to David Keil, because I really like CoCo3's but I really don't ... -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 10:30:22 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:30:22 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803041609.LAA07389@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <915679.4630.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200803041609.LAA07389@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <47CD791E.5050000@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >>> And there really isn't any reason one cannot create filenames with >>> slashes in them in UNIX. > > There is, actually: the API doesn't permit it. Unless your "filenames" > means pathnames (rather than pathname components), in which case it's > true but trivially uninteresting. > > Some systems have APIs (or other interfaces, such as the NFS server > network interface) that permit getting a slash into a pathname > component, but to the extent that that's possible, I don't think it's > fair to call them Unix, because the Unix filesystem APIs all treat > slashes as pathname component separators. > >> True - you CAN create filenames with forward slashes in them. > > What OSes are you two using, and how are you creating these "filenames" > containing slashes? Whatever they are, in this respect, they certainly > aren't "Unix". It was (an older) AIX on JFS. I don't remember exactly what I screwed up to do it, but it was something fairly bizarre. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 4 12:13:00 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 10:13:00 -0800 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0803040644w56d0b3bal4e9e6ace04354104@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0803040644w56d0b3bal4e9e6ace04354104@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:44 AM -0500 3/4/08, Jason McBrien wrote: >As for rate hikes - I think eBay is going to discover the Laffer curve >effect pretty soon. At some point raising prices won't generate any more >revenue, I think they are well beyond that point by now. People jack the shipping & handling fee to cover the ebay fee's. Buyers don't buy because of insane shipping & handling fee's. Savvy buyers of books can sometimes go to the publisher and get "rare out of print" books far cheaper than eBay. Insane eBay fee's keep sellers from putting stuff on eBay. These sum up just some of the issues I've seen in the past few years with eBay. The frustrating thing is, I recently invested in 3 extra copies of a book that is quite literally "rare and out of print" even though it came out a few months ago. My intention is to sell the copies on eBay once the price goes up a bit more. Another book I was interested in recently was "rare and out of print" simply on pre-orders, you don't want to know what it's going for on eBay, I was lucky enough to get a copy from Barnes & Nobles online. I'm not sure if I have a point with that last paragraph. If I do it is that eBay, Amazon.com, and the other online book selling places have done insane things to the price of books. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 4 13:01:18 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:01:18 -0500 Subject: 1st stage loader for IMSAI - need ascii to binary conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EEADE26-261A-4534-A362-A6F2ECDBA876@neurotica.com> On Feb 28, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> In the context of a small microcontroller like the ones we're >> talking about, these things just don't have that much code space. >> Almost none of them allow self-modifying code. Nearly all of them >> have small, simple instruction sets. If the programmer NEEDS to >> actually trace the firmware to find a bug, I'd question that >> programmer's competency. Seriously. > > OK, so I;m an incompetent programmer. I'm happy to agree to that. > Because > I certainly deug firmware (where possible) by hanging a logic analyser > off the address lines and seeing where the code is going. If you > can do it without, great!. So do I, when I can't find a bug by reading the source code. My point is that these smaller processors are so simple that it's damn difficult to write a bug that's impossible to find without wanting to probe the internal circuitry of the chip. > Let me give you an alaogy. _I_ once tracked down a logic fault in a > P850 > by noticing some odd behviour of the front panel bulbs, in particular > that half were brighter than the other half. Knowing that it's > really an > 8 bit machine interlally made me suspect that one half of the data > wasn't > being latched properly. That lead me to a missing latch strobe signal, > and so on. > > On the other hand, most of the time I use a 'socpe and/or logic > analyser. > I like to debug by figuring out what the unit is doing and > comparing it > with what it should be doing. And I like to debug firmware the same > way. Sure, that makes sense. But for what we're talking about, you honestly don't think that's overkill? I too have a logic analyzer; I use it with some regularity and I'm comfortable with it...but in such a simple application, it'd likely take longer to hook up all the logic analyzer pin grabbers to the circuit than it would to find a bug in my own code running on a tiny processor with 1KB of program memory. Goal-oriented methodology isn't always a sellout. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Mar 4 13:03:20 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 19:03:20 -0000 Subject: Q-bus to CF In-Reply-To: <200803040808.DAA05128@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <002901c87e2a$6ad1f510$5b01a8c0@uatempname> der Mouse wrote: > To use the MicroVAX-II example (because that's what I have), I'd be > perfectly content to netboot to get the OS kernel onto the machine, > provided it has local disk once it gets there. Hence the Qbus-IDE > project. Hence the plan to maybe even get that odd SCSI card (the > KZQSA was it? I forget) working. This reminds me that there was a piece of code kicking around DEC that allowed a uVAX 3 series machine to boot from KZQSA. Basically it was (iirc) piece of bootable code (floppy boot, netboot, both ... I don't remember the details) which when booted would find a KZQSA and boot off that. Never kept hold of it and I never saw the source (which would have been instructuve I suppose). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.4/1309 - Release Date: 03/03/2008 18:50 From trag at io.com Tue Mar 4 13:24:54 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:24:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Looking for Quadra 900/950 in Puget Sound area... In-Reply-To: <200803041801.m24I1Dkl021703@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803041801.m24I1Dkl021703@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <61264.209.163.133.242.1204658694.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:50:43 -0800 > From: Josh Dersch > Anyone got one they're looking to get rid of/sell/trade? My venerable > IIfx's RAM has gone bad and rather than pay stupid prices for 64-pin > simms (which are just going to be harder and harder to find) I'd like to > get something that takes standard stuff. And while I'm doing that I > might as well get something large and heavy :). > > Thanks! > Josh 30 pin SIMMs in the 16 MB capacity aren't exactly falling off of trees these days, either. :-) Of course, if you're happy with the smaller capacities, then they almost are. And the Q9xx does have 16 SIMM sockets... I've been making 16MB SIMMs for the IIfx, so one could argue that they are not getting more rare, unless they are being lost by the population faster than I am making them. However, the prices may be stupid. I mainly sold them on Ebay and the prices for a set of four ranged from under $30 to over $250 with somewhere in the $120 - $150 range being typical. Right now I have components for several more sets, but have been overwhelmed with other priorities and have not assembled any more sets. Jeff Walther From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 4 15:22:13 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:22:13 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions (size) In-Reply-To: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: <47CDBD85.6020907@msm.umr.edu> Gerold Pauler wrote: > Hello IBM folks, > > as an absolute (IBM) mainframe dummy > I would like to know what an IBM 3088 was used for? > I don't know anything about mainframes therefore > many of the infos I found on the net don't give > much meaning to me. > Size is about chest high for me, or probably 40" to the top. There is a console much like the DASD with switches and indicators, and so forth. It is probably 36" or 40" square as well. Bus and Tag cables enter and exit the bottom, and can be serviced by opening the rear. I believe there is an 8" floppy service option, but we could program the thing either from the console or from something on the 4381. I'll check with my buddy and see what he remembers, as he programmed our setup. they probably weigh from 400# to 600# like all similar era IBM boxes. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 4 15:16:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 21:16:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Logic testing In-Reply-To: from "Roger Holmes" at Mar 4, 8 00:36:24 am Message-ID: > Not so useful with peripherals though, I find a storage scope is > invaluable for them, the more traces the better, so I suppose a logic > analyser would be useful, but does one exists for MINUS 6.3 volt > logic? I always presumed they were only invented after silicon > replaced germanium and so only work with positive logic voltages. I fail to see what silicon .vs. germanium has to d owith the polarity of the logic cignals. In general PNP transistors, and for that matter PMOS fets, imply -ve logic levels, and plenty of machines were built using those components. Also ECL chips have -ve logic levels (around -2V) wrt ground. The HP Logicdart (a handheld 3-input logic analyser) can certainly handle the PMOS logic signals in older HP handheld calculaotrs and the -15V logic levels in the discrete transistor circuitry of the HP9100. I don't see why it'd not work for you. And most _decent_ logic analysers (as opposed to the TTL-only toys...) can handle ECL levels. In cany case, I cna't believe the signals in your machine are all that fast. Is it not possible to make up level shifter stages to turn them into TTL-level sgiansl for testing? -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 4 15:48:59 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:48:59 -0600 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47CDC3CB.2050102@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Here is an odd question for everyone. In a printed article, which would > be more accurate? "Apple ][", "Apple II", or "Apple 2" For a printed article, "Apple II" is appropriate. Apple themselves used that in print. IIRC, the "][" was only adopted after people saw it on the Apple IIe's bootup screen. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Mar 4 21:22:34 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:22:34 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF In-Reply-To: <47CC7E3A.9020004@softjar.se> References: <200803032220.m23MIkQV004562@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CC7E3A.9020004@softjar.se> Message-ID: <47CE11FA.8080106@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > I'd say it would definitely be the right way. Jerome Fine replies: I agree that MSCP would provide the best overall solution. There were 4 reasons I suggested the HD: interface from Ersatz-11: (a) The code to implement is much less complicated (b) My testing indicates twice the throughput due to so many fewer instructions required in the device driver. (c) For RT-11, the MSCP device driver is simple only up to devices of 8 GB. For larger devices, the code still needs to be modified. (d) My still incomplete HD(X).SYS test device driver under RT-11 is able to handle devices up to 2 TB and contains boot code as well (although ROM boot code would obviously be required with a real hardware Qbus controller which all 3rd party controllers had no difficulty including in the past - and which Ersatz-11 obviously includes as well). I agree that the throughput with other OSs than RT-11 will likely differ depending on the system overhead. For example, under RT-11, it is quite simple to bypass the device driver and use code right within the user application, including NOT using interrupts - the DOS version of Ersatz-11 does not have asynchronous I/O so interrupts are actually unnecessary in any case. It takes about 20 instructions even for a mapped monitor. It also doubles the I/O throughput. Which means that the RT-11 request using the device driver must just about equal all of the code within Ersatz-11 plus those extra few instructions in PDP-11 code. > What people seem to forget (or ignore) is that unless you decide to > emulate an existing DEC device, you not only need to write a device > driver for the OS, which sure is some work, but doable. > But you also need to write some bootstrap code, which needs to be > placed in a rom. That will quickly get a bit more ugly... Every 3rd party controller that I ever used always included boot rom code for the device it handled - as opposed to DEC which I found never included device handler boot rom code on the controller. So I don't think it would be ugly at all, just a very small additional detail. > A PDP-11 is way more complex to boot. Not only do you need the initial > boot code, in the boot ROM. You then also need the bootstrap for the > OS, which resides on disk. I don't know about RT-11, but for RSX, this > is a separate piece of a driver which in no way is related to the > device driver that you use once the system is booted. And this piece > is tightly integrated with the OS and is embedded deep inside stuff. For RT-11, the situation is essentially the same. As with all other OSs, the DEC boot ROM reads a ONE block boot program from block zero of the device that is being booted. The code for that ONE block boot program must be included in the device driver as a separate piece - and updated when the CSR (and VECTOR) are modified. RT-11 has a separate command: COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: to copy that separate ONE block boot program to block zero of the device so that the DEC hardware boot program in the boot ROM is able to then read block zero and start the boot operation. However, for the HD: device, the necessary code is probably about a dozen instructions - much less than for MSCP and very easy to enter in via hardware ODT by hand. In fact, it would probably be even easier to just set up the 6 hardware I/O registers and read in block zero that way since many of the values are zero (i.e. number of bytes, block zero, address zero, zero extended address, zero extended block number - then the CSR value with the GO bit set and the read request). Obviously using the DEC boot ROM is much easier, but not ugly for HD: as compared with the code needed for an MSCP boot. > So, unless you want a disk that you can't boot from, you have a big > chunk of work to get it working. > So doing an emulation of an existing device makes much more sense. > And of all the existing devices, MSCP is by far the best choice when > picking something to map to modern hardware. As I stated above, I agree. But the fellow who is implementing the MSCP interface for a Qbus to CF might not agree. However, since I do not have the information required to produce the Qbus to anything controller, I really can't comment. Certainly back in the 1980s when Qbus host adapters were more than $ US 1000 and it would have been easy to find someone to write the device drivers for an HD: interface, this might have been a very useful alternative to MSCP. In fact, considering how many Qbus host adapters that CMD sold, the advantages that I noted for an HD: interface might have forced DEC to offer it as well. But not today! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Mar 4 21:23:02 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:23:02 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF In-Reply-To: <002901c87e2a$6ad1f510$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <002901c87e2a$6ad1f510$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <47CE1216.9090307@compsys.to> >Antonio Carlini wrote: >>der Mouse wrote: > > >>To use the MicroVAX-II example (because that's what I have), I'd be >>perfectly content to netboot to get the OS kernel onto the machine, >>provided it has local disk once it gets there. Hence the Qbus-IDE >>project. Hence the plan to maybe even get that odd SCSI card (the >>KZQSA was it? I forget) working. >> >> > >This reminds me that there was a piece of code kicking around >DEC that allowed a uVAX 3 series machine to boot from KZQSA. >Basically it was (iirc) piece of bootable code (floppy boot, netboot, >both ... I don't remember the details) which when booted would find >a KZQSA and boot off that. > >Never kept hold of it and I never saw the source (which would >have been instructuve I suppose). > Jerome Fine replies: DEC produced a boot program for MSCP which was in the RT-11 software release notes of V05.04D of RT-11. It is 55 words long and would likely take about 5 minutes to enter by hand. I probably used it about 10 times over the past 20 years when I was desperate and had no other means of booting RT-11. If anyone requests, I can enter it one more time. I seem to remember that this has already been done and even disassembled as well. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 4 16:58:32 2008 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 22:58:32 +0000 Subject: IBM L40SX boots from CF drive, was: Q-bus to CF In-Reply-To: <47CE1216.9090307@compsys.to> References: <002901c87e2a$6ad1f510$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <6buhm2$5d36to@toip7.srvr.bell.ca> With all this talk about CF as drive substitute, I was tinkering with my L40SX with a CF to IDE adapter in notebook drive factor and 256MB CF with DOS 5.00 (IBM too!) Does *work* and truly silent notebook, no whirring. :) The software to configure hardware ID'ed CF with no issues. Even I cannot use CF in my other 701C. :( Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 4 16:58:32 2008 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 22:58:32 +0000 Subject: I thought I saw a Thinkpad 500 or 510 at thrifty but... In-Reply-To: <47CE1216.9090307@compsys.to> References: <002901c87e2a$6ad1f510$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <6buhm2$5d36tq@toip7.srvr.bell.ca> Very cute tiny early subnotebook and I like good quality mono LCDs... But... Was in poor condition with several issues; missing power slider knob, battery pack can't be held in etc and missing other items. What scare me is they had gall to ask for 70! I got cold foot and scooted, oh, left behind 3 LVD (but two can be set as SE) of 2 fujitsus and IBM hd (unknown condition) that I was about to buy for 7.99 each. No idea what size they are, all are 1" height 3.5", the one I'm sure about is 10K type due to smaller top cover diameter. Sheesh. Cheers, Wizard From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 4 23:46:53 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 21:46:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25734A@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25734A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: >> For those interested in a snapshot of the way BBS's were 21 years ago, >> point >> your telnet client at landover.no-ip.com > > Just FYI, the system doesn't seem to "hang up" the line properly when you log out. Great job though! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 23:53:32 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 16:53:32 +1100 Subject: Nostalgia trip References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25734A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <045401c87e85$3fc19320$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Buckle To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 4:46 PM Subject: RE: Nostalgia trip >> For those interested in a snapshot of the way BBS's were 21 years ago, >> point >> your telnet client at landover.no-ip.com > > Just FYI, the system doesn't seem to "hang up" the line properly when you log out. Great job though! Yeah - working on that :( From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 23:55:10 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 21:55:10 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <47CD62AD.8020706@gmail.com> References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> <47CD62AD.8020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: ploopster at gmail.com > > dwight elvey wrote: >>> From: bear at typewritten.org >>> >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>>>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >>>>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>>>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >>>> Likely no, but there are people here that can. >>> I certainly can use a 3088 or two. >>> >>> I've never seen one, though. How big are they? >>> >>> ok >>> bear >> >> Hi >> I never saw a 3088 but I did see a 3081. As I recall, it was about >> 16 full height racks layed out like a cross except it had two cross >> bars. There were a lot of changes between these models. > > Nowhere near the same kind of hardware. A 3081 is a large system. A > 3088 is a peripheral. > > Peace... Sridhar Hi That sounds better. I couldn't imagine someone wanting to power up a 3081. Between water cooler and motor generator, it used more than $20K USD a month in electricity. We also had a couple 43?? computers as well. These were waste high and about as long as a couch. I think these were also water cooled. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 23:55:34 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 21:55:34 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <47CD62AD.8020706@gmail.com> References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> <47CD62AD.8020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: ploopster at gmail.com > > dwight elvey wrote: >>> From: bear at typewritten.org >>> >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>>>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >>>>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>>>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >>>> Likely no, but there are people here that can. >>> I certainly can use a 3088 or two. >>> >>> I've never seen one, though. How big are they? >>> >>> ok >>> bear >> >> Hi >> I never saw a 3088 but I did see a 3081. As I recall, it was about >> 16 full height racks layed out like a cross except it had two cross >> bars. There were a lot of changes between these models. > > Nowhere near the same kind of hardware. A 3081 is a large system. A > 3088 is a peripheral. > > Peace... Sridhar Hi That sounds better. I couldn't imagine someone wanting to power up a 3081. Between water cooler and motor generator, it used more than $20K USD a month in electricity. We also had a couple 43?? computers as well. These were waste high and about as long as a couch. I think these were also water cooled. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 23:55:35 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 21:55:35 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <47CD62AD.8020706@gmail.com> References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> <47CD62AD.8020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: ploopster at gmail.com > > dwight elvey wrote: >>> From: bear at typewritten.org >>> >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>>>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >>>>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>>>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >>>> Likely no, but there are people here that can. >>> I certainly can use a 3088 or two. >>> >>> I've never seen one, though. How big are they? >>> >>> ok >>> bear >> >> Hi >> I never saw a 3088 but I did see a 3081. As I recall, it was about >> 16 full height racks layed out like a cross except it had two cross >> bars. There were a lot of changes between these models. > > Nowhere near the same kind of hardware. A 3081 is a large system. A > 3088 is a peripheral. > > Peace... Sridhar Hi That sounds better. I couldn't imagine someone wanting to power up a 3081. Between water cooler and motor generator, it used more than $20K USD a month in electricity. We also had a couple 43?? computers as well. These were waste high and about as long as a couch. I think these were also water cooled. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Mar 5 00:44:24 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:44:24 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> References: <122496.30178.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7d3530220803031317u2db4b68ck177631f7a5bfc507@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920803031325o4fa44c65r9af533edfb7e636b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200803050144.25013.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 03 March 2008 16:25, Josef Chessor wrote: > On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 3:17 PM, John Floren wrote: > > Yes, do! I'll stand back as the users of the Lisp Machines, PDP-8, > > LINC, IBM 1401, etc. mob you; after the Old Guard has had their turn, > > those punk kids with their Altairs and their rock and roll music can > > come in and work you over :) > > Wait! The Chinese and the abacus get first dibs! =D Some of us prefer the soroban to the abacus. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Mar 5 01:15:46 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:15:46 -0500 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <47CC6E8D.20113.2D515CA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803040432.m244WcT4010793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CC6E8D.20113.2D515CA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200803050215.47084.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 04 March 2008 00:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >Except, in UNIX, one can have a completely *valid* filename with > >slashes in it. Or almost any other character in the system > >character-set really. > > Why all this talk about U**X? CP/M allows pretty much anything in a > filename. I'm particularly fond of the file names with backspaces > and carriage return-linefeed pairs in them. :-) And then of course there's "UZI", which is an acronym for "Unix Z80 Implementation" if I'm remembering right. It took 32 of your 64K for the OS, and gave you some basic shell commands, though it's been so long since I've looked at it I'm fuzzy on details beyond that point... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Mar 5 01:17:01 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:17:01 -0500 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: References: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: <200803050217.01399.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 04 March 2008 01:04, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > What I'd like to know is where is a good source for DTL chips? > While most can be replaced with a TTL, except the 8 input nand. > It can be replaced if it is just used as an 8 input but if the > circuit uses the diode expansion pin, you must use the DTL chip. > Also, I'd love to know what numbers were used for this part > by the different manufactures? It seems that each had their own > numbering system. > Anchor Electronic has a few DTLs but I have no cross reference to > know what they are. I'd also like to get a better handle on that stuff for my parts pages, and add the datasheets in if they're out there somewhere... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From vze323vd at verizon.net Tue Mar 4 05:27:52 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (Greg Manuel (V)) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 06:27:52 -0500 Subject: "First" (was: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <20080303135017.W40648@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Josef Chessor wrote: > > Wait! The Chinese and the abacus get first dibs! =D > > followed by Antikytheria > > > Never said it was the first, just said I was pretty sure that it qualified as vintage. LOL Greg From sieler at allegro.com Tue Mar 4 13:07:05 2008 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:07:05 -0800 Subject: HP 87 computer/calculator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47CD2D59.18581.4381066@sieler.allegro.com> Re: > When I was at the VCF in Mountain View this past fall, someone in the > concessions area had an HP 87 computer/calculator for sale. Does > anyone remember who that was? I find I'm getting interested in the HP > 8x series. It was probably me. I can't recall if I sold that one, but I'm fairly sure I have a spare of either an 85 or an 87 that I could part with. Drop me a line at sieler at allegro.com Stan Sieler -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From sieler at allegro.com Tue Mar 4 13:13:49 2008 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:13:49 -0800 Subject: Is there a program to analyze a mag tape In-Reply-To: <021520080726.26462.47B53EBD00011C810000675E22230647629B0A02D29B9@MHS> References: <021520080726.26462.47B53EBD00011C810000675E22230647629B0A02D29B9@MHS> Message-ID: <47CD2EED.26726.43E3A95@sieler.allegro.com> Re: > I a have a lot of mag tape/cartridge tape that I would like to analyze. > > I there a program that would write the whole tape then read it back, > logging the retries and the errors. Eric Smith has "tapecopy", which copies tapes to disk in a simple format. I think a number of people use that ... but I don't recall it logging error information. I've got my own TAPEDISK, which does something similar. My format allows me to record which records had errors or retries, where setmarks are (for DDS), and optionally internally compress the data (using open source zlib). If anyone's interested in my format, I'd be glad to open it up. At present, I use it mostly to read/save tapes on HP 3000s (where tape blocks can exceed 64 KB). Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From sieler at allegro.com Tue Mar 4 13:17:05 2008 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:17:05 -0800 Subject: Is there a program to analyze a mag tape In-Reply-To: <021520080726.26462.47B53EBD00011C810000675E22230647629B0A02D29B9@MHS> References: <021520080726.26462.47B53EBD00011C810000675E22230647629B0A02D29B9@MHS> Message-ID: <47CD2FB1.11407.4413826@sieler.allegro.com> Re: > I a have a lot of mag tape/cartridge tape that I would like to analyze. I may have misinterpreted your post. Are you trying to analyze the data currently on the tapes, or analyze the quality of the tape (trashing any data currently on the tape)? For the latter, I've got one (TAPECHK) for the HP 3000 which I'd be happy to send you ... but it's not readily portable to other platforms, unfortunately. (I originally called it TapeAnal, for "tape analyzer", until I re-read that name one day :) Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Mar 4 15:35:20 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 22:35:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com><200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9519.129.26.149.42.1204666520.squirrel@129.26.149.42> woodelf said: [...] > CP/M card's , do they count as a OS. :) > I suspect any OS using the 6502 can't have multi-tasking OS > because you can't change page 0 or the stack page. With additional hardware, you can. Just add a small address decoding logic which remaps pages 0 and 1, either by swapping to elsewhere in the address space or to a different RAM (additional address pins come from some D-register). I know this has been done in the past in some embedded systems. With only 64K of address space, you'll have to implement some sort of MMU anyway; the address mapping PLA of the C64 is already a primitive version of a MMU. Even without such hardware, you can write software to swap pages 0/1 to other locations - it is just not extremely fast to do task switching. this way. Hey, you can even refresh DRAM by periodically calling a subroutine that just contains 256 NOPs; already done in the past. -- Holger From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 4 19:32:37 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:32:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: old monitors In-Reply-To: <010201c879bc$00de99a0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <150933.49302.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > >A guy is offering me a pile of old monitors, he > describes as "mono, cga > >and > > ega", probably about a dozen or so altogether, > and presumably all > > working. > > > > I don't have anything that currently uses any of > these interfaces running > > at > > the moment. Any more data? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Mar 5 03:22:14 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 09:22:14 +0000 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25734A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20080305092214.GA20087@usap.gov> On Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 09:46:53PM -0800, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>For those interested in a snapshot of the way BBS's were 21 years ago, > >>point > >>your telnet client at landover.no-ip.com > > > > > Just FYI, the system doesn't seem to "hang up" the line properly when you > log out. Great job though! I just jumped in from a gnome-terminal session on a modern Linux box, and since it's missing the line-drawing chars, things looked a little funny, but I was able to get around. I did notice the lack-of-hangup problem (had to escape from Telnet and use 'exit'), plus a wee K2K bug... "Last call : 05-Mar-108" Got that right after "signing up". Fun to poke around, though. Thanks for putting it online. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-Mar-2008 at 09:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.7 F (-48.7 C) Windchill -86.6 F (-65.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.8 kts Grid 66 Barometer 685.4 mb (10425 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 03:39:56 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 20:39:56 +1100 Subject: Nostalgia trip References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25734A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <20080305092214.GA20087@usap.gov> Message-ID: <05ed01c87ea4$e05bad60$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ethan Dicks To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Nostalgia trip On Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 09:46:53PM -0800, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>For those interested in a snapshot of the way BBS's were 21 years ago, > >>point > >>your telnet client at landover.no-ip.com > > > > > Just FYI, the system doesn't seem to "hang up" the line properly when you > log out. Great job though! > I did notice the lack-of-hangup problem (had to escape from Telnet > and use 'exit'), plus a wee K2K bug... > "Last call : 05-Mar-108" Yup, one of the limitations with the software I'm afraid, but I am in contact with the author, so who know what may eventuate ? :) > Fun to poke around, though. Thanks for putting it online. I'm also in the middle of restoring my ancient Amiga filebase from back then, some of the stuff isn't around on the net anymore, so may be of interest to someone. cheers, Lance From ray at arachelian.com Wed Mar 5 05:17:01 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 06:17:01 -0500 Subject: Uniplus manual set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47CE812D.30501@arachelian.com> They're also up on bitsavers now http://bitsavers.org/pdf/unisoft/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 08:13:09 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:13:09 -0500 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: References: <1204575829.1037.11.camel@bladerider.local> <47CD62AD.8020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CEAA75.5030705@gmail.com> dwight elvey wrote: >> From: ploopster at gmail.com >> >> dwight elvey wrote: >>>> From: bear at typewritten.org >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >>>>>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>>>>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >>>>> Likely no, but there are people here that can. >>>> I certainly can use a 3088 or two. >>>> >>>> I've never seen one, though. How big are they? >>>> >>>> ok >>>> bear >>> Hi >>> I never saw a 3088 but I did see a 3081. As I recall, it was about >>> 16 full height racks layed out like a cross except it had two cross >>> bars. There were a lot of changes between these models. >> Nowhere near the same kind of hardware. A 3081 is a large system. A >> 3088 is a peripheral. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > Hi > That sounds better. I couldn't imagine someone wanting to > power up a 3081. Between water cooler and motor generator, > it used more than $20K USD a month in electricity. > We also had a couple 43?? computers as well. These were > waste high and about as long as a couch. I think these were > also water cooled. I would. That's a beautiful machine. In fact, for a number of years, I ran a newer water-cooled IBM machine continuously. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 5 11:45:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:45:34 -0800 Subject: "First" (was: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803050943.m259hYvh029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803050943.m259hYvh029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47CE6BBE.681.5446BA9@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 06:27:52 -0500 > From: "Greg Manuel \(V\)" > > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Josef Chessor wrote: > > > Wait! The Chinese and the abacus get first dibs! =D > > > > followed by Antikytheria > > > Never said it was the first, just said I was pretty sure that it qualified > as vintage. LOL I use my fingers for computation. I'd try to guess something earlier, but I have no idea what fish or bacteria use. Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 11:58:30 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 09:58:30 -0800 Subject: HP 9100 spotted, need value Message-ID: I found the Holy Grail in a computer thrift shop but they wont sell it to me because they do not know what it is worth and they think it is a lot. A nice HP 9100, fairly clean, some stickers, and complete. Not been fired up and I told them not too. I offered the $60 as it was all I had and they wouldn't take it. I think they are going to want a lot more. So the question is what is a reasonable price for the holy grail sitting on a shelf. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 5 12:29:30 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:29:30 -0700 Subject: "First" In-Reply-To: <47CE6BBE.681.5446BA9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803050943.m259hYvh029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CE6BBE.681.5446BA9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47CEE68A.5030400@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I use my fingers for computation. I'd try to guess something > earlier, but I have no idea what fish or bacteria use. Well bacteria use celular autiomation .... Ha Ha. > Cheers, > Chuck > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Mar 5 13:14:33 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 19:14:33 +0000 Subject: Logic testing In-Reply-To: <200803050944.m259hYvp029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803050944.m259hYvp029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Logic testing > > I fail to see what silicon .vs. germanium has to d owith the > polarity of > the logic cignals. In general PNP transistors, and for that matter > PMOS > fets, imply -ve logic levels, and plenty of machines were built using > those components. Also ECL chips have -ve logic levels (around -2V) > wrt > ground. I bow to your greater knowledge. I was employed as a programmer and picked up hardware later. > > The HP Logicdart (a handheld 3-input logic analyser) can certainly > handle > the PMOS logic signals in older HP handheld calculaotrs and the -15V > logic levels in the discrete transistor circuitry of the HP9100. I > don't > see why it'd not work for you. And most _decent_ logic analysers (as > opposed to the TTL-only toys...) can handle ECL levels. > > In cany case, I cna't believe the signals in your machine are all that > fast. Is it not possible to make up level shifter stages to turn them > into TTL-level sgiansl for testing? Indeed, the clock is 1MHz, 750ns high and 250ns low, with lots of wobbling about as the signal overshoots. Thanks Tony, if I see a logic analyser going cheap (though that is unlikely) I will buy it. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Mar 5 13:06:27 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 19:06:27 +0000 Subject: Apple ][/II/2 In-Reply-To: <200803050944.m259hYvp029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803050944.m259hYvp029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2E1DEC23-B56E-42DE-B684-4DCD890C1D2C@microspot.co.uk> > From: Jim Leonard > Subject: Re: Apple ][/II/2 > > IIRC, the "][" was only adopted after people saw it on the Apple IIe's > bootup screen. Not true. It was on the case of the Apple ][ years before the lower case 80 column model was introduced. Roger Holmes, Part owner of an Apple dealership since 1980. From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 5 14:15:16 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 21:15:16 +0100 Subject: HP 9100 spotted, need value References: Message-ID: <000701c87efd$a435bcf0$0501a8c0@xp1800> This one is on epay item 260216091671 -Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paxton Hoag" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: HP 9100 spotted, need value >I found the Holy Grail in a computer thrift shop but they wont sell it > to me because they do not know what it is worth and they think it is a > lot. > > A nice HP 9100, fairly clean, some stickers, and complete. Not been > fired up and I told them not too. > > I offered the $60 as it was all I had and they wouldn't take it. I > think they are going to want a lot more. So the question is what is a > reasonable price for the holy grail sitting on a shelf. > > Paxton > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Mar 5 14:23:16 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 12:23:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 9100 spotted, need value In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <780768.71984.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Paxton Hoag wrote: > A nice HP 9100, fairly clean, some stickers, and complete. Not been > fired up and I told them not too. > > I offered the $60 as it was all I had and they wouldn't take it. I > think they are going to want a lot more. So the question is what is a > reasonable price for the holy grail sitting on a shelf. I've seen a couple sell for over $1K on eBay. The seller is correct to hold out for a bit more than $60, though if they keep it off of eBay, they will likely not see that kind of money. Good luck, and hope you get a good deal on it. If you think these folks might be getting more good vintage stuff in, however, don't be too cheap with them. Make it worth their while to pull out the "good stuff" for you. --Bill From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Mar 5 14:30:12 2008 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:30:12 -0600 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E019D81A5@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Sounds like 4341 (or maybe 4331)'s (waist high, couch wide). They were air-cooled. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions > From: ploopster at gmail.com > > dwight elvey wrote: >>> From: bear at typewritten.org >>> >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>>>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them >>>>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>>>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >>>> Likely no, but there are people here that can. >>> I certainly can use a 3088 or two. >>> >>> I've never seen one, though. How big are they? >>> >>> ok >>> bear >> >> Hi >> I never saw a 3088 but I did see a 3081. As I recall, it was about >> 16 full height racks layed out like a cross except it had two cross >> bars. There were a lot of changes between these models. > > Nowhere near the same kind of hardware. A 3081 is a large system. A > 3088 is a peripheral. > > Peace... Sridhar Hi That sounds better. I couldn't imagine someone wanting to power up a 3081. Between water cooler and motor generator, it used more than $20K USD a month in electricity. We also had a couple 43?? computers as well. These were waste high and about as long as a couch. I think these were also water cooled. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 14:42:23 2008 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 15:42:23 -0500 Subject: COMPAQ bag, 386 SBC, NCR 53c710 development kit, VGA card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:03 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 7:31 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > These are available from Ohio, US. > > If no one wants them in a few days, I am going to throw them away. > > > > shipping charge only. > > The bag is for the Compaq portable. Shipping $10 in the main chunk US. > > > This bag is spoken. > > > > > > 53C710 development board (ISA) with manual. Detailed information of the > > 53C710. Shipping $10 in the main chunk US. > > This board is now claimed too. > > > 386 SBC board is the same as this one: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Citadel-Single-Board-Computer-3-Real-Time-OS_W0QQitemZ190201766847 > > Shipping $10 in the US. I will combine the VGA card with it. > > > > For the above items you can choose actual shipping cost or choose the > > above mentioned fixed charge. > > > > Let me know, thank you. > > > > best, > > vax9000 > > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 14:43:16 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:43:16 -0500 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E019D81A5@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E019D81A5@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <47CF05E4.6070009@gmail.com> Bob Brown wrote: > Sounds like 4341 (or maybe 4331)'s (waist high, couch wide). > They were air-cooled. Similar size, but it's a lot heavier than a 3088. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 14:53:26 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:53:26 -0500 Subject: "First" In-Reply-To: <47CEE68A.5030400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803050943.m259hYvh029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CE6BBE.681.5446BA9@cclist.sydex.com> <47CEE68A.5030400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47CF0846.7030105@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I use my fingers for computation. I'd try to guess something earlier, >> but I have no idea what fish or bacteria use. > > Well bacteria use celular autiomation .... Ha Ha. Groan! Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Mar 5 15:03:50 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:03:50 +0100 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <0JWZ003VA3HXKRR3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JWZ003VA3HXKRR3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20080305220350.3f7c7e36@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:47:07 -0500 Allison wrote: > MSCP is a complex protocal whols primary job is to create a logical > abstraction hardware from the software and I don't think an atmel uP > is enough and definatly enough ram plus enough is not known to create > it(MSCP) from scratch. 1. There is http://www.mscpscsi.com/ 2. There are several different Atmels. The 8 bit AVR line, 32 bit AVR32 and 32 bit ARM core based contolers. The later features a DMA engine... uCLinux runs on the ARM based devices. The AVR32 has a MMU and thus is capable of running "regular" Linux. Hell! With an AVR32 on the disk contoler the disk contoler can _emulate_ a VAX or PDP-11 at higer speed then the real CPU in your QBus box! PATA <=> SATA: SATA is a serial transport for ATAPI and ATAPI is more or less a subset of SCSI... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Mar 5 15:11:46 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:11:46 -0700 Subject: (non?)HP Basic Message-ID: <47CF0C92.5030801@Rikers.org> I got around to typing in a couple of my high school basic programs from a few old printouts. http://rikers.org/hp2100/dnd/ Anyone care to comment on the flavor of basic it used? This was an early version, and the instruction: 2440 PRINT "LOAD .DRAGN" was later replaced with a CHAIN command. This was he latest printed source I had, so I typed some in to see what folks can glean from it. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 5 15:33:44 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:33:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: New finds Message-ID: <18891.88.211.153.27.1204752824.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Just got back from collecting a few PDP related items. About 30 pocket books 1968 - 1980, a vaxmate with expansion box, software & manuals Microfiches with reseller price lists, a bunch of flip-chips with blue, white, red & greeb handles, apparently for the PFU of a PDP-9, 2 RS-03 (04?) disk platters, one woth groves, the other almost mirror finished a PDP-8/a user manual, a 3 volume PDP-8/e/f/m user , internal bus & external bus maintenance manual and some odd bits & pieces like motor brushes for a TU-10. Ed From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 5 15:44:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 21:44:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9100 spotted, need value In-Reply-To: from "Paxton Hoag" at Mar 5, 8 09:58:30 am Message-ID: > > I found the Holy Grail in a computer thrift shop but they wont sell it > to me because they do not know what it is worth and they think it is a > lot. > > A nice HP 9100, fairly clean, some stickers, and complete. Not been > fired up and I told them not too. > > I offered the $60 as it was all I had and they wouldn't take it. I > think they are going to want a lot more. So the question is what is a > reasonable price for the holy grail sitting on a shelf. I wouldn't call it the 'holy grail'. They're actually not _that_ rare (I can think of other HP calculators/computers that are significantly harder to find) , but of course they wer e the first HP electronic calculator [1], and as such have considerable 'collector' interest [1] A standing joke among HP calculator enthusiasts is to ask 'What was the first HP calculator'. Handheld fanatics answer 'HP35', those who consider the desktop say' HP9100A', while those who realise it's a trick question answer 'That relfection coefficient slide rule that came with some of the RF test gear' :-) Anyway, is this machine a -A or a -B? THe formse, being the first, is more valuable (and rarer). I've seen -As sell for over $1000, I would think a -B was worth around half that. That assumes the machine is repairable (all PCBs present, no physical damage, CRT good, and so on). Be warned that repairing one of thse machines is not that easy, the logic circutis _and_ the architecture are both very unconventional. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:35:05 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 17:35:05 -0500 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <20080305220350.3f7c7e36@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <0JWZ003VA3HXKRR3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <20080305220350.3f7c7e36@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <47CF2019.20209@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:47:07 -0500 > Allison wrote: > >> MSCP is a complex protocal whols primary job is to create a logical >> abstraction hardware from the software and I don't think an atmel uP >> is enough and definatly enough ram plus enough is not known to create >> it(MSCP) from scratch. > 1. There is http://www.mscpscsi.com/ > 2. There are several different Atmels. The 8 bit AVR line, 32 bit AVR32 > and 32 bit ARM core based contolers. The later features a DMA engine... > uCLinux runs on the ARM based devices. The AVR32 has a MMU and thus is > capable of running "regular" Linux. > > Hell! With an AVR32 on the disk contoler the disk contoler can _emulate_ > a VAX or PDP-11 at higer speed then the real CPU in your QBus box! > > PATA <=> SATA: SATA is a serial transport for ATAPI and ATAPI is more or > less a subset of SCSI... I was planning on using an 8-bitter with a couple-K of RAM built-in and a built-in IDE interface. Peace... Sridhar From jmiles007 at iquest.net Wed Mar 5 16:38:48 2008 From: jmiles007 at iquest.net (Jon Miles) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 17:38:48 -0500 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay Message-ID: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> Sorry if this is bad form - I ordinarily would not post a mention of one of my own auctions but this is probably somewhat special. I have decided to sell my complete 8/e system, peripherals, software, documentations, and spares. Ebay auction number 270217347007 Jon Miles From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Mar 5 16:47:09 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:47:09 +0000 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <47CF2019.20209@gmail.com> References: <0JWZ003VA3HXKRR3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <20080305220350.3f7c7e36@SirToby.dinner41.local> <47CF2019.20209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080305224709.GA10780@usap.gov> On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 05:35:05PM -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I was planning on using an 8-bitter with a couple-K of RAM built-in and > a built-in IDE interface. I've built and maintained 68000-based Unibus, Qbus, and VAXBIcommunications boards (not like anything DEC ever made, so we were free to/had to write all of our own drivers for RSX, RSTS, VMS, and Ultrix). Given that the IDE interface wants to be 16 bits, and given that the bus interface is 16 bits for Unibus and Qbus, a) that's a lot of I/O pins for an integral MCU, and b) it might take some external hardware to have an 8-bit CPU passing data between two 16-bit pipes (latches, or some way to handle a measurable delay between writing the top half and bottom half of your data. We had to resort to some tricks to interface a 16-bit CPU to the 32-bit VAXBI BIIC interface chip (the one in the corner of all VAXBI boards). I see similar issues with an 8-bit CPU on a Unibus or Qbus. Just something to keep in mind if you get high-byte/low-byte race conditions, etc. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-Mar-2008 at 22:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -57.5 F (-49.7 C) Windchill -91.9 F (-68.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.1 kts Grid 64 Barometer 682.5 mb (10534 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 5 16:54:31 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:54:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <05ed01c87ea4$e05bad60$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <934414.56449.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yes, please do put it online. Anything relating to AMOS Basic or assembler coding would be great for me. I'm helping a mate with the AMOS side of a new Amiga website. I have loads of Amiga projects at the "in progress" stage :) Also, I just learned how Bezier curves work (still don't understand the actual equation on the Wiki pages though!), but writing the code in AMOS Basic will probably be slow. Does anyone have any pointers of how to code it in assembler? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Lance Lyon wrote: I'm also in the middle of restoring my ancient Amiga filebase from back then, some of the stuff isn't around on the net anymore, so may be of interest to someone. cheers, Lance From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:54:53 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 17:54:53 -0500 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> References: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> Message-ID: <47CF24BD.3010301@gmail.com> Jon Miles wrote: > Sorry if this is bad form - I ordinarily would not post a mention of one of > my own auctions but this is probably somewhat special. I have decided to > sell my complete 8/e system, peripherals, software, documentations, and > spares. > > > > Ebay auction number 270217347007 Wow! What a beautiful machine! Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Mar 5 16:56:12 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> References: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Mar 2008, Jon Miles wrote: > Sorry if this is bad form - I ordinarily would not post a mention of one of > my own auctions but this is probably somewhat special. I have decided to > sell my complete 8/e system, peripherals, software, documentations, and > spares. > > Ebay auction number 270217347007 A very enviable setup. I can sympathise with your decision to sell it. So many fun things to play with, but only so much time. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 17:05:11 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 15:05:11 -0800 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> References: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> Message-ID: <7d3530220803051505l4b7feb25seb9a7208d74c4ef0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Jon Miles wrote: > Sorry if this is bad form - I ordinarily would not post a mention of one of > my own auctions but this is probably somewhat special. I have decided to > sell my complete 8/e system, peripherals, software, documentations, and > spares. > > > > Ebay auction number 270217347007 > > > > Jon Miles > I wish I had known about all this before you put up the auction... I would have liked to try and work out a deal for that teletype. Oh well, hope you get a good price and that it stays running! John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Mar 5 17:05:27 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:05:27 -0500 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: <47CF24BD.3010301@gmail.com> References: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> <47CF24BD.3010301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200803051805.27262.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 March 2008 17:54, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jon Miles wrote: > > Sorry if this is bad form - I ordinarily would not post a mention of one > > of my own auctions but this is probably somewhat special. I have decided > > to sell my complete 8/e system, peripherals, software, documentations, > > and spares. > > > > > > > > Ebay auction number 270217347007 > > Wow! What a beautiful machine! > > Peace... Sridhar Yes, it is real purty, and apparently dealt with through the application of much care and attention to detail. I don't feel at all bad about what I got for mine, a much lesser 8, a few years back. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Mar 5 17:26:48 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:26:48 +0000 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> References: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> Message-ID: <47CF2C38.6040402@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/03/2008 22:38, Jon Miles wrote: > Sorry if this is bad form - I ordinarily would not post a mention of one of > my own auctions but this is probably somewhat special. I have decided to > sell my complete 8/e system, peripherals, software, documentations, and > spares. Very nice indeed. Alas, too far away and beyond my budget but it looks great. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Mar 5 18:01:07 2008 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:01:07 -0500 Subject: (non?)HP Basic In-Reply-To: <47CF0C92.5030801@Rikers.org> References: <47CF0C92.5030801@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200803060001.m2601BP8017179@mail.bcpl.net> On 5 Mar 2008 at 14:11, Tim Riker wrote: > Anyone care to comment on the flavor of basic it used? It doesn't appear to be any of the HP 1000, 2000, or 3000 BASICs. 99% of the lines would pass for any of these, but these statements are unrecognized: 10 FILES = ".D&D" The HP FILES statement has either unquoted filenames or * characters to be referenced by later ASSIGN statements. Also, the filename shown would be illegal. 2070 ON FNA(3) THEN 2110,2140 The ON...THEN statement is implemented as GOTO...OF in HP BASICs. 2440 PRINT "LOAD .DRAGN" PRINTing a command certainly wouldn't execute it in HP BASICs. There were a few BASIC interpreters that were part of the 1000, 2000, and 3000 contributed libraries. Perhaps this is one of these, although the odd filename seems to argue against it. Was this the dialect that was running on the 2114B? -- Dave From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Mar 5 18:20:35 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 17:20:35 -0700 Subject: (non?)HP Basic In-Reply-To: <200803060001.m2601BP8017179@mail.bcpl.net> References: <47CF0C92.5030801@Rikers.org> <200803060001.m2601BP8017179@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <47CF38D3.1020204@Rikers.org> J. David Bryan wrote: > > 10 FILES = ".D&D" > > The HP FILES statement has either unquoted filenames or * characters to be > referenced by later ASSIGN statements. Also, the filename shown would be > illegal. I think the leading dot made the files hidden in directory listings. This was a work in progress, not something I expected users to be running yet. I was thinking it was a leading '!' but I trust the source more than my memory. :) > 2070 ON FNA(3) THEN 2110,2140 > > The ON...THEN statement is implemented as GOTO...OF in HP BASICs. > > 2440 PRINT "LOAD .DRAGN" > > PRINTing a command certainly wouldn't execute it in HP BASICs. I'm fairly sure this was just me debugging. It was a comment to myself that I now needed to "LOAD .DRAGN" :) Notes on the printouts mention CHAIN. I expect the format was exactly: 2440 CHAIN ".DRAGN" > There were a few BASIC interpreters that were part of the 1000, 2000, and > 3000 contributed libraries. Perhaps this is one of these, although the odd > filename seems to argue against it. I do recall that the leading "." was a feature our admin (Frank Stover as I recall) added to the system by request. There were no "libraries" or other storage areas that I know off. All terminals could see the same directory list, so students could access each others files. This added the desire to have a way to hide them, and the leading "." was the solution. > Was this the dialect that was running on the 2114B? Yes, this was on our 2114 which I think was a B. I'm pretty certain that the machine had 32k words of core memory on cards. That excludes an A, but not the (perhaps fictitious?) C model. This system had been at the school for quite some time, and probably originally had just the one asr-33, paper tape reader, punch, card reader and printer. The 2 crt terminals were added one at a time later. I'm not sure what other upgrades had happened. There was no large hard drive on the system. Just 2 floppy sized drives. I _think_ they were both 8" floppies, but they were inside a small locked rack case, and I as a lowly student did not have physical access. Thanx for the notes! -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 19:19:35 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 12:19:35 +1100 Subject: Nostalgia trip References: <934414.56449.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012601c87f28$27d50370$0100a8c0@pentium> Hi Andrew, From: Andrew Burton To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:54 AM Subject: Re: Nostalgia trip > Yes, please do put it online. > Anything relating to AMOS Basic or assembler coding would be great for me. > I'm helping a mate with the AMOS side of a new Amiga website. I have loads > of Amiga projects at the "in progress" stage :) There's a bit of both already restored. cheers, Lance From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Mar 5 20:21:55 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:21:55 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <47CF05E4.6070009@gmail.com> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E019D81A5@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <47CF05E4.6070009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CF5543.6090709@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Bob Brown wrote: >> Sounds like 4341 (or maybe 4331)'s (waist high, couch wide). >> They were air-cooled. the 4361 was the really desirable one because it had better comms built in, and a storage director for FBA. You could run VM on it quite nicely with a couple of 3370's (and I did on one I wish I could have gotten). Jim From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 5 21:01:16 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:01:16 -0600 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <934414.56449.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <05ed01c87ea4$e05bad60$0100a8c0@pentium> <934414.56449.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080305210029.0861b5d0@mail.threedee.com> At 04:54 PM 3/5/2008, Andrew Burton wrote: >Also, I just learned how Bezier curves work (still don't understand the actual equation on the Wiki pages though!), but writing the code in AMOS Basic will probably be slow. Does anyone have any pointers of how to code it in assembler? Computers love Beziers because it's all shifts and adds. Stare at the equations a little longer. - John -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.4/1312 - Release Date: 3/4/2008 9:46 PM From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 5 21:44:55 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:44:55 -0600 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080305210029.0861b5d0@mail.threedee.com> References: <05ed01c87ea4$e05bad60$0100a8c0@pentium> <934414.56449.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080305210029.0861b5d0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <47CF68B7.4060900@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > At 04:54 PM 3/5/2008, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Also, I just learned how Bezier curves work (still don't understand the actual equation on the Wiki pages though!), but writing the code in AMOS Basic will probably be slow. Does anyone have any pointers of how to code it in assembler? > > Computers love Beziers because it's all shifts and adds. Stare at the > equations a little longer. Bezier's aren't as useful as Catmull-Rom splines (the splines actually go THROUGH the defined points. But I can't see how either could be implemented via shifts and adds either, unless you were implying to implement them with fixed-point math... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 5 21:55:21 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:55:21 -0700 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <47CF68B7.4060900@oldskool.org> References: <05ed01c87ea4$e05bad60$0100a8c0@pentium> <934414.56449.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080305210029.0861b5d0@mail.threedee.com> <47CF68B7.4060900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47CF6B29.3030708@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Bezier's aren't as useful as Catmull-Rom splines (the splines actually > go THROUGH the defined points. But I can't see how either could be > implemented via shifts and adds either, unless you were implying to > implement them with fixed-point math... Long live fixed point math. :) I can think at least one problem that I know that needs exact calculations and lots and lots of tiny numbers. Ben alias woodelf From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 5 21:54:34 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:54:34 -0700 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:26:48 +0000. <47CF2C38.6040402@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: *drool* A VT05 with a spare! Plus all the ephemera and nice racks and panels, it sure is a beauty. I bet you have a nicer set there than what the Computer History Museum has for a PDP-8! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 5 21:57:52 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:57:52 -0700 Subject: someone's got an expensive wang (terminal) Message-ID: ebay # 160211814874 I have no idea why this went up to $300. Maybe they didn't realize it was only a terminal and not a computer? I could be wrong of course, but it looks virtually identical to the terminal I bought not too long ago. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 22:19:52 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 23:19:52 -0500 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <47CF2C38.6040402@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220803052019l15d9cba0nbd9b492508abe9e4@mail.gmail.com> All I saw at the CHM were three PDP-8 CPUs and an ASR33... pretty, but not near the amount of stuff in this auction! That reminds me... the Computer Science House at RIT has a PDP-8 somethingorother that just languishes in their storage room... if I could only find some way to pry it away from them :) They're not cool enough to have it. John On 3/5/08, Richard wrote: > *drool* A VT05 with a spare! > > Plus all the ephemera and nice racks and panels, it sure is a beauty. > I bet you have a nicer set there than what the Computer History Museum > has for a PDP-8! > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 5 22:46:35 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 20:46:35 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E019D81A5@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E019D81A5@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:30:12 -0600 > From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions > > Sounds like 4341 (or maybe 4331)'s (waist high, couch wide). > They were air-cooled. > -Bob 4341 sounds right. I wonder what happened to those machines when the company folded. Dwight > > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:56 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions > > >> From: ploopster at gmail.com >> >> dwight elvey wrote: >>>> From: bear at typewritten.org >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2008, at 12:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I am asking these questions because I might get hands on 3 of them > >>>>>> and according to my contact 2 out of 3 are still NOS. >>>>>> So I wonder if I (as a DEC/Unix Guy) can make any use out of them. >>>>> Likely no, but there are people here that can. >>>> I certainly can use a 3088 or two. >>>> >>>> I've never seen one, though. How big are they? >>>> >>>> ok >>>> bear >>> >>> Hi >>> I never saw a 3088 but I did see a 3081. As I recall, it was about >>> 16 full height racks layed out like a cross except it had two cross >>> bars. There were a lot of changes between these models. >> >> Nowhere near the same kind of hardware. A 3081 is a large system. A >> 3088 is a peripheral. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > Hi > That sounds better. I couldn't imagine someone wanting to power up a > 3081. Between water cooler and motor generator, it used more than $20K > USD a month in electricity. > We also had a couple 43?? computers as well. These were waste high and > about as long as a couch. I think these were also water cooled. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! > http://biggestloser.msn.com/ > _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 5 23:23:55 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 21:23:55 -0800 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay Message-ID: <18189617-4900-4E06-A226-3F9F1CEBDA99@bitsavers.org> > I bet you have a nicer set there than what the Computer History Museum > has for a PDP-8! Hardly What is in visible storage is a very small fraction of the Museum's DEC holdings which includes an RF08. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 23:24:47 2008 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 23:24:47 -0600 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> References: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> Message-ID: <624966d60803052124p5d3093bdn33a1b0b2acb241a7@mail.gmail.com> I have had the honor of meeting with Jon a few times. He is one of the nicest people I've met here, and really knows his 8-E and options. His system look like it just came off of a production line. I don't think pictures can do it justice. It could easily be the cornerstone of any collection. Paul Anderson On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 4:38 PM, Jon Miles wrote: > Sorry if this is bad form - I ordinarily would not post a mention of one > of > my own auctions but this is probably somewhat special. I have decided to > sell my complete 8/e system, peripherals, software, documentations, and > spares. > > > > Ebay auction number 270217347007 > > > > Jon Miles > > > > > > > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 6 00:12:23 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:12:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Mar 5, 8 08:54:34 pm" Message-ID: <200803060612.m266CNl1014438@floodgap.com> > Plus all the ephemera and nice racks and panels, it sure is a beauty. > I bet you have a nicer set there than what the Computer History Museum > has for a PDP-8! I don't think CHM has all of their PDP-8 stuff on display though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From g-wright at att.net Thu Mar 6 00:30:57 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 06:30:57 +0000 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay Message-ID: <030620080630.2655.47CF8FA0000D9A6000000A5F22243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Well belly up to the bar and show this piece that is finished and displayed better that this item Is......................... - Jerry -------------- Original message from Al Kossow : -------------- > > I bet you have a nicer set there than what the Computer History > Museum > > has for a PDP-8! > > Hardly > > What is in visible storage is a very small fraction of the Museum's > DEC holdings > which includes an RF08. > > > From chowell2 at pacbell.net Wed Mar 5 14:27:26 2008 From: chowell2 at pacbell.net (Colin Howell) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 12:27:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Albuquerque Craigslist posting: "Older RISC hardware free to collector" Message-ID: <894764.3253.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (note I'm not a cctalk subscriber, though I read through the archives fairly often.) I was informed of the following posting to the Albuquerque Craigslist and thought people here might be interested: http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/sys/596509820.html ----- Older RISC hardware free to collector Reply to: sale-596509820 at craigslist.org Date: 2008-03-05, 12:24PM MST We have several '90s vintage RISC computers; Decstation, VAXStation, HP9000, Sun4, and RS6000. I think that I have media kits, documentation, and licenses for all of them but most of it's in boxes and I will need to check. The disks have been wiped to ensure no corporate data goes with them. These are obviously not speed demons, but they served us well for many years. The boss wants me to send them off for scrap, but that seems like a waste if there are collectors or enthusiasts who would like them. Free if you pick them up. I will not ship. These systems all booted and ran when they were turned off, but the disks have been wiped and I don't have time to test them. They are as is, where is, but they are free. * Location: ABQ * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 596509820 From herby1620 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 16:00:29 2008 From: herby1620 at yahoo.com (Herbert C. Williams) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:00:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Logic testing In-Reply-To: <200803051802.m25I1akZ044305@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <611491.67574.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > Not so useful with peripherals though, I find a storage scope is > > invaluable for them, the more traces the better, so I suppose a logic > > analyser would be useful, but does one exists for MINUS 6.3 volt > > logic? I always presumed they were only invented after silicon > > replaced germanium and so only work with positive logic voltages. > > I fail to see what silicon .vs. germanium has to d owith the polarity of > the logic cignals. In general PNP transistors, and for that matter PMOS > fets, imply -ve logic levels, and plenty of machines were built using > those components. Also ECL chips have -ve logic levels (around -2V) wrt > ground. But... Logic levels are different when using PNP transistors. IBM in its SMS series cards used "S" levels (+S and -S) which were -12 and 0volts. Commonly germanium transistors were PNP, and the Vcc rail was a negative voltage (in the case of SMS cards -12 volts). If you have a logic analyzer, you can TRY to use it by connecting the ground level reference to -12 volts and hope that something doesn't blow because the analyzer's ground is now at -12 volts and logic levels go "up" from there. It usually helps to have a NEMA adapter (ground lifter) to isolate the third prong ground on the power connector (it has been known that some people cut off this connection). On PMOS levels (intel 4004 was an example) they used +5 for Vdd and -9 for Vss as I recall. You needed pull downs to -9 on some pins to interface with TTL. PMOS wasn't the easiest to interface with non-PMOS stuff (but it was done). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 6 01:25:31 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 02:25:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Albuquerque Craigslist posting: "Older RISC hardware free to collector" In-Reply-To: <894764.3253.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <894764.3253.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200803060727.CAA03160@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...quote from ABQ Craigslist...] I'm nowhere near ABQ, but I did find this amusing: > Older RISC hardware free to collector > We have several '90s vintage RISC computers; [...] VAXStation, [...] ...the VAX is about as far from RISC as it gets! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Mar 6 01:38:02 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 07:38:02 +0000 Subject: Complete pdp8/e system on eBay In-Reply-To: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> References: <001c01c87f11$ae260d00$6401a8c0@Offload26> Message-ID: <20080306073802.GA10136@usap.gov> On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 05:38:48PM -0500, Jon Miles wrote: > Sorry if this is bad form - I ordinarily would not post a mention of one of > my own auctions but this is probably somewhat special. I have decided to > sell my complete 8/e system, peripherals, software, documentations, and > spares. > > Ebay auction number 270217347007 Amazing. I have some individual parts to match, but I've never set up anything larger than a 2-bay system - maybe when I finish debugging my defective KK8E and I can move on to my RK8E and throw a couple of RK05s on it... (right now, my two most expansive systems are an -8/i w/2xDF32 and a PC04, and an -8/a w/RL01 and RX02). Very, very nice. Someone is going to be very happy with that system. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Mar-2008 at 07:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.0 F (-47.2 C) Windchill -90.3 F (-68.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.1 kts Grid 51 Barometer 680.4 mb (10613 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Mar 6 02:29:18 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 08:29:18 +0000 Subject: 1st stage loader for IMSAI - need ascii to binary conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1204792158.25783.5.camel@elric> On Wed, 2008-02-27 at 22:57 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On 26 Feb 2008 at 19:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Argh!. I grew up learning to design solutions to problems, rather than > > > throw microcontrollers at them in the hope they'd go away. > > > > Aw, Tony, a little 8 pin PIC or an ATiny can do this with no > > additional active packages. The algorithm can be tweaked with no > > component changes. > > No _new_ components, but you still have to reprogram the microcontroller > (which may involve pulling it from the board..). Personally, I'd rather > change some R's and C's I've got microcontrollers. I've got tools to deal with microcontrollers. I don't have any NE567s or pot cores left. Never mind if something is particularly suitable, I use what I've got. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Mar 6 02:30:02 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 08:30:02 +0000 Subject: 1st stage loader for IMSAI - need ascii to binary conversion In-Reply-To: <47C49D4B.3080200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47C49D4B.3080200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1204792202.25783.7.camel@elric> On Tue, 2008-02-26 at 16:14 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Feb 26, 2008, at 2:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Well, Chuck said it best, but I'll add this: You get fewer components, > > lower cost, easier maintainability and tweakability, increased > > flexibility, the possibility for a reusable design...how is this a bad > > thing? > > I question the over head ... with all the design software closed source > I bet Mr Gates has control of I guess 75% of your hardware product. Mr who? Gordon From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Mar 6 03:32:59 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:32:59 +0100 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions Message-ID: <20080306093259.129000@gmx.net> "Bob Brown" wrote: > Sounds like 4341 (or maybe 4331)'s (waist high, couch wide). > They were air-cooled. Yep - I always used to report the form factor of our 4331 (boarded in Hans Franke's warehouse in Munich) as "chest freezer". It has a big axial fan in a horizontal separator panel above the power supplies and two pairs of radial blowers on top of the logic gate - drawing ambient air in through the front grille and forcing it _down_wards through the cardcages. So long, -- Arno Kletzander Student Assistant // Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 6 05:13:55 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 03:13:55 -0800 Subject: Logic testing References: <200803050944.m259hYvp029644@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47CFD1F2.697E42CA@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > > Not so useful with peripherals though, I find a storage scope is > > invaluable for them, the more traces the better, so I suppose a logic > > analyser would be useful, but does one exists for MINUS 6.3 volt > > logic? I always presumed they were only invented after silicon > > replaced germanium and so only work with positive logic voltages.> > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I fail to see what silicon .vs. germanium has to d owith the > > polarity of > > the logic cignals. In general PNP transistors, and for that matter > > PMOS > > fets, imply -ve logic levels, and plenty of machines were built using > > those components. Also ECL chips have -ve logic levels (around -2V) > > wrt > > ground. > Roger Holmes wrote: > I bow to your greater knowledge. I was employed as a programmer and > picked up hardware later. Most Ge transistor equipment (pre-mid-60's) was PNP/-V, most post-mid-60's was Si/(NPN if bipolar)/+V, as per the supposition of your (Roger's) original question. Historically, or in terms of the prevalence of according systems, there is a correlation between the material and the polarity, although it's not a technically imperative correlation (there are exceptions). I'm not sure of the cause of the correlation, a guess would be that manufacturing issues lent a preference to Ge-PNP and Si-NPN. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Mar 6 05:16:16 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 11:16:16 +0000 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <200803060359.m263wmH4063112@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803060359.m263wmH4063112@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1F2B7341-B85F-4948-A924-C81A580FCCC3@microspot.co.uk> > From: woodelf > Long live fixed point math. :) > I can think at least one problem that I know that needs exact > calculations > and lots and lots of tiny numbers. I used to write/maintain compilers for a language with fixed point arithmetic built in (Coral 66). For some jobs much better than floating point, such as storing angles as a fraction of a circle, so that if you add/subtract two angles together you don't have to do mod 360 or 2Pi as it automatically overflows and gives you the correct answer. Not so useful for describing spirals and helixes though. Roger Holmes Ex employee of Elliott Brothers (London) Ltd / Marconi Elliott Avionic Systems Ltd / GEC Avionics in the 1970s From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 09:25:49 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 07:25:49 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: Hi Here is a list of the DTL that Anchor has. Does anyone have a pinouts and types for these?? 930 932 934 936 937 946 948 951 958 962 1800 9093 9034 9099 Knowing what these are would help in knowing what other DTL numbers are the same part. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 6 09:54:50 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:54:50 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: References: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: <47D013CA.7040005@sbcglobal.net> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Here is a list of the DTL that Anchor has. Does anyone have > a pinouts and types for these?? > > > 930 > 932 > 934 > 936 > 937 > 946 > 948 > 951 > 958 > 962 > 1800 > 9093 > 9034 > 9099 > > Knowing what these are would help in knowing what other DTL > numbers are the same part. > Dwight > I have data sheets for the following: 930 = expandable dual 4-input NAND 932 = expandable dual 4-input buffer 934 = hex inverter 936 = hex inverter 937 = hex inverter 946 = quad inverter 948 = clocked flip-flop 951 = multivibrator 962 = quad 2-input NAND gate plus inverter Bob From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 6 10:18:11 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 11:18:11 -0500 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator Message-ID: <2F130011-1483-4519-B39A-CC0225A38CD7@xlisper.com> Has anyone invented a way to use a PC (or Linux or a Mac) to emulate an HP-IB drive for the purposes of providing mass storage to an HP85 or HP87 computer? I know such a thing exists for emulating Atari drives on a PC. Has anyone done anything similar for HP-IB? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 6 10:54:00 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:54:00 -0700 Subject: 1st stage loader for IMSAI - need ascii to binary conversion In-Reply-To: <1204792202.25783.7.camel@elric> References: <47C49D4B.3080200@jetnet.ab.ca> <1204792202.25783.7.camel@elric> Message-ID: <47D021A8.5020501@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Mr who? No that is Dr. Who. :) > Gordon PS: I think the VDM-1 manual has a BOOT strap loader listing in a appendex. How many people had a TTY for hardcopy with 8080 machine? I have fond memories of using a CP/M system. If the 8" floppy sticks hit the drive. If you hit the drive TOO hard that machine reset for some reasion. Lots of fun. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 6 10:58:18 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 08:58:18 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics Message-ID: Hi, Someone sent me this yesterday and I thought it might be of interest to the various 6502 enthusiasts on this list. It's a PDF of the transistor schematic of the 6502 CPU. It's high resolution and fairly detailed (includes annotations of the various bits of the CPU). I put it up on my website at: http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/docs/6502.pdf Have fun! TTFN - Guy From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Mar 6 11:02:52 2008 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:02:52 -0500 Subject: (non?)HP Basic In-Reply-To: <47CF38D3.1020204@Rikers.org> References: <47CF0C92.5030801@Rikers.org>, <200803060001.m2601BP8017179@mail.bcpl.net>, <47CF38D3.1020204@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200803061702.m26H2vOh021017@mail.bcpl.net> On 5 Mar 2008 at 17:20, Tim Riker wrote: > I do recall that the leading "." was a feature our admin (Frank Stover > as I recall) added to the system by request. HP BASICs of the 2114 era restricted filenames to letters and digits, so neither the period nor the ampersand in ".D&D" would have been legal without local modifications to the interpreter. I had a quick squint at the contributed library catalog (e.g., "HP 2100 Program Catalog" at hpmuseum.net), and it seems as though all of the contributed BASICs (including MSU BASIC) were modelled on the language of the HP 20392 single-user product. None mention an ON...THEN statement. With the ON...THEN statement and the different FILES syntax, I'm pretty sure that this is either a non-HP BASIC, or it's a contributed library BASIC that was locally modified. -- Dave From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Mar 6 11:05:27 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 18:05:27 +0100 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <20080305224709.GA10780@usap.gov> References: <0JWZ003VA3HXKRR3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <20080305220350.3f7c7e36@SirToby.dinner41.local> <47CF2019.20209@gmail.com> <20080305224709.GA10780@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080306180527.44c260a7@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:47:09 +0000 Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I was planning on using an 8-bitter with a couple-K of RAM built-in > > and a built-in IDE interface. > I've built and maintained 68000-based Unibus, Qbus, and > VAXBIcommunications boards M68k is still alive: ColdFire! Looking at the MSCP-SCSI stuff: It seems that the data is pumped between QBus and SCSI by glue logic hardware. (There is a CPLD etc.) So the MCU has to do only supervisory tasks. With a faster (16 or 32 bit) MCU this could be done in software. A software solution would be more flexible and much easier to build. (debugging, PCB, programming a CPLD, ...) Also: There are ColdFire MCUs with PCI interface. This would ease attachment of a SATA controller... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From grant at stockly.com Thu Mar 6 12:01:08 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:01:08 -0900 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 07:58 AM 3/6/2008, you wrote: >Hi, > >Someone sent me this yesterday and I thought it might be of interest >to the various 6502 enthusiasts on this list. > >It's a PDF of the transistor schematic of the 6502 CPU. It's high >resolution and fairly detailed (includes annotations of the various >bits of the CPU). > >I put it up on my website at: http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/docs/6502.pdf Do you have any more information on this? Is it an official document or something done to make a processor similar to a 6502? I'd like to find the guy who did it. If he had the CAD file then we could make a gerber. : D From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 6 12:08:13 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:08:13 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips References: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> <47D013CA.7040005@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <47D0330C.494FD8C6@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > Here is a list of the DTL that Anchor has. Does anyone have > > a pinouts and types for these?? > > > > 930 > > 932 > > 934 > > 936 > > 937 > > 946 > > 948 > > 951 > > 958 > > 962 > > 1800 > > 9093 > > 9034 > > 9099 > > > > Knowing what these are would help in knowing what other DTL > > numbers are the same part. > > Dwight > > > I have data sheets for the following: > 930 = expandable dual 4-input NAND > 932 = expandable dual 4-input buffer > 934 = hex inverter > 936 = hex inverter > 937 = hex inverter > 946 = quad inverter = quad 2-in NAND > 948 = clocked flip-flop > 951 = multivibrator > 962 = quad 2-input NAND gate plus inverter = triple 3-in NAND 958 = CTL (RTL-class) decade counter 1800 = DTL dual 5-in NAND (although pin diagram shows dual 4-in with exp-in) 9093 = DTL dual JK FF 9034 = ? 9099 = DTL dual JK FF If 9034 is a type for 9094 then: 9094 = DTL dual JK FF Source: back pages of Fairchild TTL/78 data book, does not include full specs, just pinouts and packages. Also lists RTL stuff, in addition to the DTL. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 6 12:16:48 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:16:48 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips References: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> <47D013CA.7040005@sbcglobal.net> <47D0330C.494FD8C6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <47D0350F.A547092@cs.ubc.ca> A typo in "typo"! Brent Hilpert wrote: > If 9034 is a type for 9094 then: typo From hachti at hachti.de Thu Mar 6 12:52:16 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 19:52:16 +0100 Subject: Wanted: DEC Core memory (broken, too) Message-ID: <47D03D60.30202@hachti.de> Hi folks, I am looking for Omnibus core memory. If anyone can offer me a complete memory.... But I am also interested in a BROKEN DEC H619 core stack to repair. Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 6 13:02:11 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:02:11 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > Do you have any more information on this? Is it an official document or > something done to make a processor similar to a 6502? I'd like to find > the guy who did it. If he had the CAD file then we could make a > gerber. : D But who plans to solder in all them Fets. :) From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Mar 6 13:11:05 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 20:11:05 +0100 Subject: OFF TOPIC: Jodrell bank "to close" In-Reply-To: <47D0330C.494FD8C6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200803061911.m26JBnk9043463@keith.ezwind.net> Apologies for the off topic post (although it does, sort of, kinda, in a way, have a tenuous link to Classic Computing). The Government has announced the closure of the Jodrell Bank radio telescope in Cheshire, UK - to save just ?2.5m/year. This is, obviously, a major disaster for astronomy, physics, etc. in the UK. The Lovell Telescope (i.e. the big dish at Jodrell Bank) was build in 1952 & was the world's largest steerable radio telescope. It's still the 3rd largest to this day. Obvuiously, there's been loads of old computers on the site, although sadly I have no details. Maybe someone else knows? Anyway - an e-petition has been set up to try to persuade the Prime Minister (the odious Gordon Brown) to keep it open... Please do sign it if you're a UK resident or recent ex-pat. -------------------------------------------------------------- PLEASE do not reply to this post on this list (unless it's to relate some kind of ClassicCmp related story about Jodrell Bank). ESPECIALLY *please* don't reply just to say "I signed".... -------------------------------------------------------------- Many thanks. Link to the petition: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RadioAstronomy/ News in the Times: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article3492504.ece Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovell_Telescope Many thanks, and I apologise most humbly for hijacking the list for this post. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1315 - Release Date: 06/03/2008 09:07 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 6 12:57:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:57:39 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: <200803061800.m26I0N2Z070737@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803061800.m26I0N2Z070737@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47CFCE23.6763.AACC582@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:54:50 -0800 > From: Bob Rosenbloom > Subject: Re: Obsolete chips All of the following are from the Motorola Big Brown Book: > 930 = expandable dual 4-input NAND ... 958 - Dual 2-input NAND Power gate 1800 - Dual 5-input NAND gate The following were obtained from a "direct replacement" chart: 9093 - Dual J-K flip flop (same as 953) 9099 - Dual J-K flip flop (same as 952) I can find a mention in an old catalog of this one, but have no additional information: 9034 - 256 bit ROM Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 6 13:01:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 19:01:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: <2F130011-1483-4519-B39A-CC0225A38CD7@xlisper.com> from "David Betz" at Mar 6, 8 11:18:11 am Message-ID: > > Has anyone invented a way to use a PC (or Linux or a Mac) to emulate > an HP-IB drive for the purposes of providing mass storage to an HP85 > or HP87 computer? I know such a thing exists for emulating Atari > drives on a PC. Has anyone done anything similar for HP-IB? > There are 2 parts to this ... Firstly the interface, which is HPIB/GPIB/IEEE488. And scondly the 'command set' -- what to actually send to read/wrtie from the disk. As is well knwom the Commodore PET used HPIB-interfaced drive units, but they won't work on an HP machine becuase the command set is totally different (IIRC the Commodure units are file-orientated, the HP ones are block orientated, for example). Anyway, there were at least 3 command sets ued by HP -- Amigo (mostly used on older flippy drives), SS/80 (more modern floppies and small hard disks) and CS/80 (larger hard disks). I _think_ specifcations of all exist, I have some of the mon paper, or a poke around on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ may find something (for some odd reason this information is often included as an appendix to the boardswapper guides!). What I'd be interested in seeing (having got many old HP machines using such drives) would be a microocnotroller board with an HPIB interface on one side and IDE or SCSI on the other. Shouldn't be _too_ big a project, but it's not something I feel like tackling jsut yet. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 6 13:12:59 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 14:12:59 -0500 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> On Mar 6, 2008, at 2:02 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Do you have any more information on this? Is it an official >> document or something done to make a processor similar to a 6502? >> I'd like to find the guy who did it. If he had the CAD file then >> we could make a gerber. : D > But who plans to solder in all them Fets. :) I'll do it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Mar 6 13:13:01 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:13:01 -0300 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] References: <0JWZ003VA3HXKRR3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net><20080305220350.3f7c7e36@SirToby.dinner41.local><47CF2019.20209@gmail.com> <20080305224709.GA10780@usap.gov> Message-ID: <021301c87fbe$210700c0$0b0c010a@portajara> > IDE interface wants to be 16 bits, and given that the bus interface is > 16 bits for Unibus and Qbus, a) that's a lot of I/O pins for an > integral MCU, and b) it might take some external hardware to have an > 8-bit CPU passing data between two 16-bit pipes (latches, or some way > to handle a measurable delay between writing the top half and bottom > half of your data. Ethan, a very nice implementation of a simple CF interface is the speccy one. I don't have a link handy and I'm on a hurry. But look for cf interfaces for ZX Spectrum and you'll find a very simple way to drive a CF card. Maybe it can be implemented on your big iron :) From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Mar 6 13:25:11 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:25:11 -0700 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D04517.7010509@Rikers.org> Thanx for the info! At some point I'd like to get this up and running myself. Has anyone looked at this HPDrive project? http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ looks to be windows only, but source is available. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 6 13:29:52 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 14:29:52 -0500 Subject: Obsolete chips Message-ID: <01C87F96.8BD0D480@MSE_D03> Don't know if this made it first time; if dupe, pls excuse. -----Original Message: Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:54:50 -0800 From: Bob Rosenbloom Subject: Re: Obsolete chips dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Here is a list of the DTL that Anchor has. Does anyone have > a pinouts and types for these?? > > > 930 > 932 > 934 > 936 > 937 > 946 > 948 > 951 > 958 > 962 > 1800 > 9093 > 9034 > 9099 > > Knowing what these are would help in knowing what other DTL > numbers are the same part. > Dwight > I have data sheets for the following: 930 = expandable dual 4-input NAND 932 = expandable dual 4-input buffer 934 = hex inverter 936 = hex inverter 937 = hex inverter 946 = quad inverter 948 = clocked flip-flop 951 = multivibrator 962 = quad 2-input NAND gate plus inverter Bob ---------Reply: Hmm, I have slightly different info: 946 = Quad 2-input NAND 962 = Triple 3-input NAND On the other hand I can't find a 934 listed in my books... In addition: 958 = Quad 2-input power gate 1800 = Dual 5-input NAND 9093 = Dual J-K 9034 - S/B 9094 = Dual J-K 9099 = Dual J-K Also listed at Anchor: 935 = Hex Inverter (extendable) 949 = Quad 2-input NAND Equivalent devices usually differ in the value of the pullup resistor (if any): e.g. Dual 4-input NANDs: 930 = 6K P/U 932 = 2K P/U, driver 944 = O/C, driver 961 = 2K P/U The 935 was a 936 w/o any input diodes. Extendable (expandable) indicated a connection that bypassed the input diodes so that it could be externally expanded with more diodes or an extender like the 933. I still have some of these (maybe even some RTL) and of course the Databooks. Fairchild's DTL had a '9' prefix; NS used 'DM' m From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 6 13:37:26 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 14:37:26 -0500 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: <47D04517.7010509@Rikers.org> References: <47D04517.7010509@Rikers.org> Message-ID: > Thanx for the info! At some point I'd like to get this up and running > myself. Has anyone looked at this HPDrive project? > > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ > > looks to be windows only, but source is available. I guess I don't mind running this under Windows. This is just the sort of thing that I was looking for. Thanks! Now, I just have to find a HP-IB interface for my HP 85b! Anyone got a spare? From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Mar 6 13:52:03 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:52:03 -0700 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: References: <47D04517.7010509@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <47D04B63.3030100@Rikers.org> David Betz wrote: >> Thanx for the info! At some point I'd like to get this up and running >> myself. Has anyone looked at this HPDrive project? >> >> http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ >> >> looks to be windows only, but source is available. > > I guess I don't mind running this under Windows. This is just the sort > of thing that I was looking for. Thanks! Please report back on your findings! > Now, I just have to find a HP-IB interface for my HP 85b! Anyone got a > spare? Is this what you are after? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200205642428 -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 6 14:04:39 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:04:39 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> find the guy who did it. If he had the CAD file then we could make a >>> gerber. : D >> But who plans to solder in all them Fets. :) > > I'll do it! Since we seem to going backwards in tech dave will have the first 6500 for a Apple [] :) Now who has plans for a 1K DRAM ... > -Dave > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Mar 6 14:00:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 20:00:10 +0000 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <021301c87fbe$210700c0$0b0c010a@portajara> References: <20080305224709.GA10780@usap.gov> <021301c87fbe$210700c0$0b0c010a@portajara> Message-ID: <20080306200010.GA11725@usap.gov> On Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 04:13:01PM -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >IDE interface wants to be 16 bits, and given that the bus interface is > >16 bits for Unibus and Qbus... > Ethan, a very nice implementation of a simple CF interface is the speccy > one. I don't have a link handy and I'm on a hurry. But look for cf > interfaces for ZX Spectrum and you'll find a very simple way to drive a CF > card. Maybe it can be implemented on your big iron :) I didn't say "CF", I said "IDE". CF supports 8 or 16-bit access, but in any case, Qbus and Unibus are still 16 bits, and I think using an 8-bit CPU to talk to a Qbus or Unibus will add complexity to the project vs using a 16-bit CPU. It's been beaten to death on the list in the past, but CF is not a good choice for a long-term use with a swapping OS (VMS and Ultrix in this case). I don't know enough about RSX and RSTS internals to know if they do lots of writes to the boot drive or not. Oh... and not all CF-interfaced rotating media support 8-bit mode. I have a 5GB CF-interfaced drive here (in a USB wrapper), and from researching the drive mech on Seagate's site, it explicitly does *not* support 8-bit mode, only 16-bit "true IDE" mode. I was thinking of stuffing onto my IOB6120 until I found that out. I also have a real IBM-branded 340MB Microdrive with me; I haven't checked on that one yet. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Mar-2008 at 19:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.9 F (-40.5 C) Windchill -78.8 F (-61.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 21.8 kts Grid 17 Barometer 679.7 mb (10640 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 6 14:03:17 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:03:17 -0500 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: <47D04B63.3030100@Rikers.org> References: <47D04517.7010509@Rikers.org> <47D04B63.3030100@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <8E8FF5A2-B710-4AD5-B5C6-03EBDAB2FC24@xlisper.com> >> Now, I just have to find a HP-IB interface for my HP 85b! Anyone >> got a >> spare? > > Is this what you are after? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200205642428 Yeah, that's it. Thanks for the pointer! I'll watch this auction to see if it stays at a reasonable price. In the meantime, anyone want to trade a HP 82939A serial interface for an HP 82937A HP-IB interface? From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 6 13:25:04 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 14:25:04 -0500 Subject: Obsolete chips Message-ID: <01C87F95.E0CAC960@host-208-72-122-154.dyn.295.ca> -----Original Message: Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:54:50 -0800 From: Bob Rosenbloom Subject: Re: Obsolete chips dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Here is a list of the DTL that Anchor has. Does anyone have > a pinouts and types for these?? > > > 930 > 932 > 934 > 936 > 937 > 946 > 948 > 951 > 958 > 962 > 1800 > 9093 > 9034 > 9099 > > Knowing what these are would help in knowing what other DTL > numbers are the same part. > Dwight > I have data sheets for the following: 930 = expandable dual 4-input NAND 932 = expandable dual 4-input buffer 934 = hex inverter 936 = hex inverter 937 = hex inverter 946 = quad inverter 948 = clocked flip-flop 951 = multivibrator 962 = quad 2-input NAND gate plus inverter Bob ---------Reply: Hmm, I have slightly different info: 946 = Quad 2-input NAND 962 = Triple 3-input NAND On the other hand I can't find a 934 listed in my books... In addition: 958 = Quad 2-input power gate 1800 = Dual 5-input NAND 9093 = Dual J-K 9034 - S/B 9094 = Dual J-K 9099 = Dual J-K Also listed at Anchor: 935 = Hex Inverter (extendable) 949 = Quad 2-input NAND Equivalent devices usually differ in the value of the pullup resistor (if any): e.g. Dual 4-input NANDs: 930 = 6K P/U 932 = 2K P/U, driver 944 = O/C, driver 961 = 2K P/U The 935 was a 936 w/o any input diodes. Extendable (expandable) indicated a connection that bypassed the input diodes so that it could be externally expanded with more diodes or an extender like the 933. I still have some of these (maybe even some RTL) and of course the Databooks. Fairchild's DTL had a '9' prefix; NS used 'DM' m From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 6 15:16:38 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:16:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803062118.QAA08195@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Anyway, there were at least 3 command sets ued by HP -- Amigo (mostly > used on older flippy drives), SS/80 (more modern floppies and small > hard disks) and CS/80 (larger hard disks). I _think_ specifcations > of all exist, At one point (years ago by now) I was looking at making a computer act as an HP-IB disk. In the process I went looking for specs; I'm fairly sure I have CS/80 specs in softcopy somewhere, so if there's need, let me know and I can go looking. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 15:20:14 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:20:14 -0500 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: There is always http://www.6502.org which lists some places that still make and sell the chips such as http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/ > Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 13:04:39 -0700 > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > To: > Subject: Re: 6502 CPU schematics > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > >>> find the guy who did it. If he had the CAD file then we could make a > >>> gerber. : D > >> But who plans to solder in all them Fets. :) > > > > I'll do it! > > Since we seem to going backwards in tech > dave will have the first 6500 for a Apple [] :) > Now who has plans for a 1K DRAM ... > > -Dave > > > > _________________________________________________________________ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 6 15:27:26 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 21:27:26 +0000 Subject: Program The Baby competition Message-ID: <47D061BE.2090107@dunnington.plus.com> My friends in CompSci at York have reminded me that the School of Computer Science at the University of Manchester is organising a number of activities "to celebrate the 60th birthday of computing"" -- that is, to celebrate the 60th birthday of the "Baby" computer. There's to be a computer animation festival and a public open day in June that may be of interest to UK list members, and there's a "program the Baby" competition. Details at http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/Digital60/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 6 16:40:21 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:40:21 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > There is always http://www.6502.org I don't like them ... They have a *Evil* 6502 cpu design. :) > which lists some places that still make and sell the chips such as > http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/ But try and find a 6501 CPU! Other than the Apple 1, I can't think of any other computer that even said a thing about the 6501. From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Mar 6 16:39:55 2008 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 17:39:55 -0500 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: References: <2F130011-1483-4519-B39A-CC0225A38CD7@xlisper.com> from "David Betz" at Mar 6, 8 11:18:11 am, Message-ID: <200803062240.m26Me02X009875@mail.bcpl.net> On 6 Mar 2008 at 19:01, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, there were at least 3 command sets ued by HP -- Amigo (mostly > used on older flippy drives), SS/80 (more modern floppies and small > hard disks) and CS/80 (larger hard disks). I _think_ specifcations of > all exist.... At Bitsavers -- http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/ - 5955-3442_cs80-is-pm.pdf is CS/80 instruction set - 5958-4129_SS80_Nov-1985.pdf is SS/80 instruction set - 09134-90032-Aug-1983.pdf has Amigo command set in Appendix A -- Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 6 16:55:06 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:55:06 -0700 Subject: Program The Baby competition In-Reply-To: <47D061BE.2090107@dunnington.plus.com> References: <47D061BE.2090107@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <47D0764A.4030302@jetnet.ab.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: > My friends in CompSci at York have reminded me that the School of > Computer Science at the University of Manchester is organising a number > of activities "to celebrate the 60th birthday of computing"" -- that is, > to celebrate the 60th birthday of the "Baby" computer. There's to be a > computer animation festival and a public open day in June that may be of > interest to UK list members, and there's a "program the Baby" competition. The last winner I think was a noodle timer. With the real machine you could TIME and HEAT your noodles. :) > Details at http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/Digital60/ Has anybody duplicated the baby using modern components ( ie: solid state) but still keeping the CRT storage? From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 16:55:20 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 09:55:20 +1100 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com><47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <048301c87fdd$28b268e0$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "woodelf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:40 AM Subject: Re: 6502 CPU schematics > But try and find a 6501 CPU! Other than the Apple 1, I can't think > of any other computer that even said a thing about the 6501. Chuck Peddle stated in 2007 ""...we stopped producing the 6501 so none really made it to market in any numbers. We never intended anyone to buy it anyhow. It was an in your face to Motorola... It is indeed rare."" cheers, Lance // Retro Amiga BBS - original \\ // hardware & software! \\// telnet://landover.no-ip.com From lee at geekdot.com Thu Mar 6 17:28:01 2008 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 00:28:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: 6502 CPU schematics Message-ID: <2233.78.32.193.107.1204846081.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Do you have any more information on this? Is it an official > document or something done to make a processor similar to a > 6502? I'd like to find the guy who did it. If he had the > CAD file then we could make a gerber. I think it has been created from the information on this site .. http://impulzus.sch.bme.hu/6502/ Lee. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 6 17:35:44 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 16:35:44 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <048301c87fdd$28b268e0$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com><47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> <048301c87fdd$28b268e0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <47D07FD0.4000604@jetnet.ab.ca> Lance Lyon wrote: > Chuck Peddle stated in 2007 ""...we stopped producing the 6501 so none > really made it to market in any numbers. We never intended anyone to > buy it anyhow. It was an in your face to Motorola... It is indeed rare."" That is a lie, the 6501 was ment to be sold, until the lawyers said otherwise. :) Thinking back a homebrew computer ( with a change in the cpu card) was in BYTE a 6800 or a 6502 machine. > cheers, > > Lance From oldcomp at cox.net Thu Mar 6 21:51:26 2008 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 20:51:26 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics - 6501 In-Reply-To: <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47D0BBBE.2090006@cox.net> woodelf wrote: > But try and find a 6501 CPU! Other than the Apple 1, I can't think > of any other computer that even said a thing about the 6501. Eric Smith has one, made by the digital group: http://gallery.brouhaha.com/the_digital_group/img_3561 I also have a *working* one, but no pics yet. That makes TWO! -Bryan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 6 22:14:17 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 21:14:17 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics - 6501 In-Reply-To: <47D0BBBE.2090006@cox.net> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D0BBBE.2090006@cox.net> Message-ID: <47D0C119.6040303@jetnet.ab.ca> Bryan Blackburn wrote: > Eric Smith has one, made by the digital group: > > http://gallery.brouhaha.com/the_digital_group/img_3561 > > I also have a *working* one, but no pics yet. That makes TWO! > > -Bryan You might want to copy the Prom if you can. The one in the photo does not have a cover, so it could be erased by now. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Mar 6 22:56:50 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 23:56:50 -0500 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: References: <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200803062356.50664.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 06 March 2008 16:20, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > There is always http://www.6502.org > which lists some places that still make and sell the chips such as > http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/ I have a bunch of 65xx parts on hand, if anybody is looking for some... > > Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 13:04:39 -0700 > > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > > To: > > Subject: Re: 6502 CPU schematics > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > >>> find the guy who did it. If he had the CAD file then we could make a > > >>> gerber. : D > > >> > > >> But who plans to solder in all them Fets. :) > > > > > > I'll do it! > > > > Since we seem to going backwards in tech > > dave will have the first 6500 for a Apple [] :) > > Now who has plans for a 1K DRAM ... > > > > > -Dave > > _________________________________________________________________ -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 6 23:53:45 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 21:53:45 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: <47D0330C.494FD8C6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200803021801.m22I0wSV083009@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19657.209.163.133.242.1204564597.squirrel@webmail.io.com> <47D013CA.7040005@sbcglobal.net> <47D0330C.494FD8C6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 10:08:13 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at priv-edmwaa04.telusplanet.net > CC: > Subject: Re: Obsolete chips > > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> dwight elvey wrote: >>> Hi >>> Here is a list of the DTL that Anchor has. Does anyone have >>> a pinouts and types for these?? >>> >>> 930 >>> 932 >>> 934 >>> 936 >>> 937 >>> 946 >>> 948 >>> 951 >>> 958 >>> 962 >>> 1800 >>> 9093 >>> 9034 >>> 9099 >>> >>> Knowing what these are would help in knowing what other DTL >>> numbers are the same part. >>> Dwight >>> >> I have data sheets for the following: >> 930 = expandable dual 4-input NAND >> 932 = expandable dual 4-input buffer >> 934 = hex inverter >> 936 = hex inverter >> 937 = hex inverter >> 946 = quad inverter > = quad 2-in NAND >> 948 = clocked flip-flop >> 951 = multivibrator >> 962 = quad 2-input NAND gate plus inverter > = triple 3-in NAND > > 958 = CTL (RTL-class) decade counter > 1800 = DTL dual 5-in NAND (although pin diagram shows dual 4-in with exp-in) > 9093 = DTL dual JK FF > 9034 = ? > 9099 = DTL dual JK FF > > If 9034 is a type for 9094 then: yes, typo. should be 9094. It seem the 9093 aand 9094 are identical except one has a stronger pullup. I found some good information on: http://wps.archives/solid-state-datasheets/index.html Dwight > 9094 = DTL dual JK FF > > Source: back pages of Fairchild TTL/78 data book, > does not include full specs, just pinouts and packages. > Also lists RTL stuff, in addition to the DTL. _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From brain at jbrain.com Fri Mar 7 00:38:43 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 00:38:43 -0600 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47D0E2F3.70705@jbrain.com> woodelf wrote: > Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> There is always http://www.6502.org > > I don't like them ... They have a *Evil* 6502 cpu design. :) > >> which lists some places that still make and sell the chips such as >> http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/ > > But try and find a 6501 CPU! Other than the Apple 1, I can't think > of any other computer that even said a thing about the 6501. Would it be that hard to wire up an adapter to map the 6502 pinout to the 6800? Jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 7 01:00:14 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 23:00:14 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips In-Reply-To: <200803070555.m275tJiW077387@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803070555.m275tJiW077387@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47D0777E.28043.D424BA0@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:54:50 -0800 > 9034 - S/B 9094 = Dual J-K Argh. You have no idea how many databooks and catalogs I went through to find that 9034--and then was perplexed as to why anyone would carry a mask-programmed ROM as a generic part. Sigh. At any rate, there were a lot of manufacturers making DTL that we don't think of today. In particular, Philco: 9093 = 853 9094 = 856 9097 = 855 9099 = 852 9930 = 830 9931 = 831, etc. 800-series is the lower-cost "commercial" grade of 900-series logic with a narrower temp range, also available in plastic DIP. The confusing thing about DTL part numbers is how they're "shoehorned" within the RTL part number scheme. So, a 928 is RTL, but a 930 is DTL; A similar situation exists with the 9000 numbers. 9931 is DTL, 9989 is RTL. A point of curiosity that I have is what was the highest level of integration achieved before DTL was relegated to the "obsolescent" bin? I have a couple of Fairchild addressable 8-bit memories; was there anything more elaborate? A full adder, perhaps? Cheers, Chuck From rdbrown at pacific.net.au Thu Mar 6 15:05:46 2008 From: rdbrown at pacific.net.au (Rodney Brown) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 08:05:46 +1100 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator Message-ID: <1204837546.6161.92.camel@localhost.localdomain> The CS-80 & SS-80 information is up at bitsavers and linked off the IEEE-488 wikipedia article. Olivier De Smet's HP85 simulator has a 9121 emulation in. I have hpfddcs.pdf - Appendix A of some HP floppy manual documenting the Amigo command set for 9121 & the 5.25 posted by Frank McConnell in 2003 http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-May/021826.html http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/hpfddcs.pdf This mob http://www.isa-j.co.jp/english/product/HP/HPIB_SCSI/ supplies (expensively) new SS-80 HP-IB drives (Jon has it linked from the 9122 entry on hpmuseum.net). I think I also found a company in England providing CS-80 to SCSI drives for 1000s & 3000s. http://www.reactivedata.com/2-LegacyDiskAndTapeEmulators/leghp1000.htm I think some of the BSDs may have support for CS-80 drives. Since I just got myself a 7980 magtape (HP-IB), source for a unix driver would be really nice. Hope this gets to the list & is useful. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 6 18:21:57 2008 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:21:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Western Peripherals TC130 Message-ID: <42032.36291.qm@web53306.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I recently acquired a Western Peripherals TC130 controller set. Does anybody have any expeience with this controller and would I be better off getting a single board solution. I have a Cipher 1734 drive I would like to use. Thanks, Brian. From jrr at flippers.com Fri Mar 7 00:36:18 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 22:36:18 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics - 6501 In-Reply-To: <47D0C119.6040303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D0BBBE.2090006@cox.net> <47D0C119.6040303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47D0E262.3080608@flippers.com> woodelf wrote: > Bryan Blackburn wrote: > >> Eric Smith has one, made by the digital group: >> >> http://gallery.brouhaha.com/the_digital_group/img_3561 >> >> I also have a *working* one, but no pics yet. That makes TWO! >> >> -Bryan > > You might want to copy the Prom if you can. The one in the photo > does not have a cover, so it could be erased by now. > > > > > > I can read/copy 1702A's if needed to archive that 6501 system Eprom... John :-#)# From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Mar 7 01:11:31 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 23:11:31 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803062311.31923.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 06 March 2008 08:58, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > Someone sent me this yesterday and I thought it might be of > interest to the various 6502 enthusiasts on this list. > > It's a PDF of the transistor schematic of the 6502 CPU. It's high > resolution and fairly detailed (includes annotations of the > various bits of the CPU). > > I put it up on my website at: > http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/docs/6502.pdf > > Have fun! Now THAT'S cool. Thanks!!!! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From davis at saw.net Fri Mar 7 01:37:52 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 23:37:52 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <200803062311.31923.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200803062311.31923.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <47D0F0D0.8030101@saw.net> Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Thursday 06 March 2008 08:58, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Someone sent me this yesterday and I thought it might be of >> interest to the various 6502 enthusiasts on this list. >> >> It's a PDF of the transistor schematic of the 6502 CPU. It's high >> resolution and fairly detailed (includes annotations of the >> various bits of the CPU). >> >> I put it up on my website at: >> http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/docs/6502.pdf >> >> Have fun! >> > > Now THAT'S cool. Thanks!!!! > > Cheers, > Lyle > > The schematic seems funny on first look. Eight address lines look like they are missing. Or is it just my tired eyes. Jim. From technobug at comcast.net Fri Mar 7 01:43:33 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 00:43:33 -0700 Subject: Logic testing In-Reply-To: <200803061800.m26I0N2U070737@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803061800.m26I0N2U070737@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6ACFC4E8-5037-465F-B629-FF0D86B728BB@comcast.net> At Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:00:29 -0800 (PST), Herbert C. Williams wrote: > But... > Logic levels are different when using PNP transistors. IBM in its > SMS series > cards used "S" levels (+S and -S) which were -12 and 0volts. Commonly > germanium transistors were PNP, and the Vcc rail was a negative > voltage (in the > case of SMS cards -12 volts). If you have a logic analyzer, you > can TRY to use > it by connecting the ground level reference to -12 volts and hope that > something doesn't blow because the analyzer's ground is now at -12 > volts and > logic levels go "up" from there. My old Biomation K100 will take a +/- 50 volt signal and set reference levels to -6.4 to +6.35 volts. This should be sufficient to handle most logic levels out there. However, the newer logic analyzers typically restrict the reference levels to +/- 5V at best. Re-referencing ground still requires one to be able to set the reference level, which in the case of the cited logic probably requires +6 V. [...] CRC From davis at saw.net Fri Mar 7 01:44:05 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 23:44:05 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D0F0D0.8030101@saw.net> References: <200803062311.31923.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <47D0F0D0.8030101@saw.net> Message-ID: <47D0F245.6070801@saw.net> davis wrote: > Lyle Bickley wrote: >> On Thursday 06 March 2008 08:58, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Someone sent me this yesterday and I thought it might be of >>> interest to the various 6502 enthusiasts on this list. >>> >>> It's a PDF of the transistor schematic of the 6502 CPU. It's high >>> resolution and fairly detailed (includes annotations of the >>> various bits of the CPU). >>> >>> I put it up on my website at: >>> http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/docs/6502.pdf >>> >>> Have fun! >>> >> >> Now THAT'S cool. Thanks!!!! >> >> Cheers, >> Lyle >> >> > The schematic seems funny on first look. Eight address lines look like > they are missing. Or is it just my tired eyes. > Jim. > > Yep, tired eyes. High address buffers are on the top of the schematic. Jim. From davis at saw.net Fri Mar 7 03:33:50 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 01:33:50 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D10BFE.7080606@saw.net> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > Someone sent me this yesterday and I thought it might be of interest > to the various 6502 enthusiasts on this list. > > It's a PDF of the transistor schematic of the 6502 CPU. It's high > resolution and fairly detailed (includes annotations of the various > bits of the CPU). > > I put it up on my website at: > http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/docs/6502.pdf > > Have fun! > > TTFN - Guy > > Tracing the instruction decode output signals is the biggest problem with this very pretty document. Jim. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 7 03:39:28 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 10:39:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, woodelf wrote: > But try and find a 6501 CPU! Other than the Apple 1, I can't think > of any other computer that even said a thing about the 6501. No 6501, but I have several 6500. They are used as microcontrollers e.g. on Seagate ST-225. Christian From davis at saw.net Fri Mar 7 04:23:55 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 02:23:55 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47D117BB.5000505@saw.net> From what I understand, The 6501 was a 6800 instruction clone that was sued into history by Motor-ola. Jim From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Mar 7 05:21:42 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:21:42 +0000 Subject: Value of big iron In-Reply-To: <200803070555.m275tJie077387@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803070555.m275tJie077387@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7DA64C8F-82C0-4EB2-8565-E52825A5EB0F@microspot.co.uk> The Curator of the Computing Collection at the (UK) Science Museum is coming down to see it in May to see my second ICT1301 to give me a provisional decision on whether they want to take it. If they don't, I have found someone as mad as me, who would like to buy it, but he want me to give him a price. My question is, how much is it worth? I don't want to ask too much but I don't want to find something similar is sold a couple of months later for ten times as much. I have two bracketing values, that I bought it for 150 GBP in 1977, and that it was sold new for 247,000 GBP in 1962, both figures plus inflation of course. That is a somewhat wide range, and must be reduced by the fact it is not assembled and will probably need many months work to get it into working condition, but even as a static display it is quite impressive. Does anyone know of any experts who could come down and value such an unusual thing? Probably none have been sold since I bought mine so it would have to be based on other brands or models. Roger Holmes From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Mar 7 06:26:15 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 07:26:15 -0500 Subject: RT-11 MACRO V5.05 Y2K crash 4-Mar-2008 and fix In-Reply-To: <47cbfce5.50171272@freenews.ozemail.com.au> References: <47cbfce5.50171272@freenews.ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <47D13467.1040806@compsys.to> >paramucho wrote: >MACRO V5.05 crashed on 4-Mar-2008. > >It's a coding bug. MACRO was bit clearing a 5-bit rather than 4-bit >field for the month. The fix: > >Loc Old New >62160 177740 177760 > >For other versions you're looking for this sequence: > >Old New >000315 >006215 >006215 >042725 >177740 177760 >010015 > Jerome Fine replies: This post appeared on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 on Monday, March 3rd, 2008. While it fixes the bug for the month, the year is still incorrect. By the way, I can make available a full Y2K fix for V05.05 of MACRO which includes a 4 digit year - as opposed to DEC's version which only supports a 2 digit year. Just over a dozen words need to be modified, so an SLP file is probably the way to submit it. Naturally, the patch includes the above modification along with checking the rest of the year in the date word. Is there sufficient interest in having the patch? I have not found any interest in fixing bugs in RT-11, let alone in enhancements. Let me know. I can also produce Y2K bug fixes for DIR, PIP, IND, LINK, LIBR, etc. I use a free read only server to monitor a few text only news groups. Does anyone know of a free server that I can use to post a few times a year to news groups? Can anyone forward a post for me instead? I would request that you "modify" my e-mail address to prevent spam. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 07:29:30 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 08:29:30 -0500 Subject: WaveMate Bullet history Message-ID: <001501c88057$46706420$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I wrote a Wikipedia page for the WaveMate Bullet. I think it is a noteworthy historical computer but apparently the people at Wikipedia disagree. They have placed the "This article may not meet the general notability guideline " tag on the page. Apparently, this is a prelude to deletion as a non-relevant article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WaveMate_Bullet I will agree the WaveMate Bullet certainly isn't the most common vintage computer and even my Wikipedia page stub isn't all that great. However, there are ought to be *some* notation in the historical record of this machine existing. Practically nothing on it exists on the internet. If anyone has any pictures or reference material on the WaveMate Bullet and would like to include it in the Wikipedia page, please either edit the page or send it to me and I will include it. It sure would be a shame to see this classic vintage CP/M disappear without so much as minor footnote of it ever existing. Thanks in advance for any help. Andrew Lynch PS, Don Maslin thought it was a note worthy machine and he even thought it belonged in the top 150 most collectible vintage computers. Too bad he is not here to defend it any longer. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 7 07:46:58 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 05:46:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: WaveMate Bullet history In-Reply-To: <001501c88057$46706420$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> from Andrew Lynch at "Mar 7, 8 08:29:30 am" Message-ID: <200803071346.m27Dkw2T014190@floodgap.com> > I wrote a Wikipedia page for the WaveMate Bullet. I think it is a > noteworthy historical computer but apparently the people at Wikipedia > disagree. And that's why I don't write Wikipedia articles. Less headaches if you just put a page yourself and tell people about it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 7 08:51:29 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 09:51:29 -0500 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D35A02C-3267-4173-B674-5A29F173375B@neurotica.com> On Mar 6, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Someone sent me this yesterday and I thought it might be of > interest to the various 6502 enthusiasts on this list. > > It's a PDF of the transistor schematic of the 6502 CPU. It's high > resolution and fairly detailed (includes annotations of the various > bits of the CPU). > > I put it up on my website at: http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/ > docs/6502.pdf > > Have fun! Whoa...wow...I had no idea there were so few transistors in the 6502! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Mar 7 09:40:05 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 10:40:05 -0500 Subject: Reassembling an Atari cartridge Message-ID: <1793167A-0D17-4E84-8EC8-8DDE8113D2F7@xlisper.com> Well, I did something really stupid this time. I had an old Atari 800 cartridge that had lost its label. I figured that maybe something inside would tell me what kind of cartridge it was so I took it apart. First, there was no marking on the PC board that gave any clue as to what cartridge it was. But worse, I didn't pay enough attention to the original orientation of the PC board inside the plastic housing so I don't know how to put it together again. The circuit board has a big blob of glue on the top of what I assume is a ROM chip. Does that side of the PC board face the side of the plastic housing with the screw or the other side? To make matters worse, I *found* the label for the cartridge at the bottom of my box of old Atari stuff so I didn't really need to take the cartridge apart after all. Can anyone give me some advice about how to reassemble the cartridge with the circuit board in the correct orientation? Thanks! David From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Mar 7 10:03:54 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:03:54 +0000 Subject: Test software for PANDA display? In-Reply-To: <002401c839c8$d0de4850$729ad8f0$@com> References: <20071208155147.GA3171@usap.gov> <002401c839c8$d0de4850$729ad8f0$@com> Message-ID: <20080307160354.GA5695@usap.gov> Hi, Bob, I'm finally nearing completion of my Panda display, at last, and I rememeber another Panda display owner mentioning that you sent them a test program to cycle the LEDs. Could you send that to me? I'm using Linux, so I'd prefer C or C++ source than a compiled binary, if that's OK (I've been twiddling LEDs and such from the parallel port under Linux for a while, so I don't anticipate any problems if I have to massage the code; of course you'd be welcome to any changes I made). I didn't get a chance to place a last parts order before the last plane, so I'm improvising like mad here. I found a couple of 4.7K SIPs (one just yesterday, thus the progress), but I may have to use discretes for the LED current limiters. To help me in my search, what values are reasonable for RP1-RP5 and RP8? I think I can find a wad of 220 Ohm resistors, but other low values might or might not be present here in the necessary abundance. Thanks, -ethan P.S. - I do have the JEDEC file for the GAL, a programmer, and several blanks, so that's no problem - just the current limiters. -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Mar-2008 at 15:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.2 F (-42.9 C) Windchill -82.5 F (-63.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 18.8 kts Grid 35 Barometer 680.0 mb (10628 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 10:27:00 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:27:00 -0500 Subject: WaveMate Bullet history In-Reply-To: <200803071346.m27Dkw2T014190@floodgap.com> References: <001501c88057$46706420$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <200803071346.m27Dkw2T014190@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0803070827l42b0f2e4ka2ca472c5f217cee@mail.gmail.com> I added the page to the computer history category. I think if you put in what makes the machine notable, beyond Don Maslin thought it was, it may help with the not notable citation. On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I wrote a Wikipedia page for the WaveMate Bullet. I think it is a > > noteworthy historical computer but apparently the people at Wikipedia > > disagree. > > And that's why I don't write Wikipedia articles. Less headaches if you > just put a page yourself and tell people about it. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you > first. - > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 7 10:32:42 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 11:32:42 -0500 Subject: Reassembling an Atari cartridge In-Reply-To: <1793167A-0D17-4E84-8EC8-8DDE8113D2F7@xlisper.com> References: <1793167A-0D17-4E84-8EC8-8DDE8113D2F7@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <47D16E2A.80408@atarimuseum.com> Hi David, The chip side always faces the back of the cartridge (on the 400/800/XL "Brown" carts the chips will face outward with the back metal cover removed.) On the grey "XE" cartridges, same deal, you will place the PCB onto the label side with the chips facing you and then place the back cover over them. The PCB's themselves are generic, though interestingly enough, almost all Atariwriter wordprocessor and Atari Tennis games are on Red PCB's and most others are on green. The only way to know the game is the know the numbering codes of the chips, I've been compiling such a list for a couple of years, the revisions are sometimes a little overwhelming.) Simple rule of them on the carts, chips always face AWAY from you when plugged into a 400/800, 600/800XL and XE GS machines and face DOWN on the 1200XL and 65XE/130XE machines. Curt David Betz wrote: > Well, I did something really stupid this time. I had an old Atari 800 > cartridge that had lost its label. I figured that maybe something > inside would tell me what kind of cartridge it was so I took it apart. > First, there was no marking on the PC board that gave any clue as to > what cartridge it was. But worse, I didn't pay enough attention to the > original orientation of the PC board inside the plastic housing so I > don't know how to put it together again. The circuit board has a big > blob of glue on the top of what I assume is a ROM chip. Does that side > of the PC board face the side of the plastic housing with the screw or > the other side? To make matters worse, I *found* the label for the > cartridge at the bottom of my box of old Atari stuff so I didn't > really need to take the cartridge apart after all. Can anyone give me > some advice about how to reassemble the cartridge with the circuit > board in the correct orientation? > > Thanks! > David > > From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Mar 7 10:36:14 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:36:14 -0500 Subject: Reassembling an Atari cartridge In-Reply-To: <47D16E2A.80408@atarimuseum.com> References: <1793167A-0D17-4E84-8EC8-8DDE8113D2F7@xlisper.com> <47D16E2A.80408@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <2437277A-E34D-4C16-BF3A-9D2BBEAEBFAF@xlisper.com> Thanks very much for your help! David On Mar 7, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi David, > > The chip side always faces the back of the cartridge (on the > 400/800/XL "Brown" carts the chips will face outward with the back > metal cover removed.) On the grey "XE" cartridges, same deal, you > will place the PCB onto the label side with the chips facing you and > then place the back cover over them. > > The PCB's themselves are generic, though interestingly enough, > almost all Atariwriter wordprocessor and Atari Tennis games are on > Red PCB's and most others are on green. The only way to know the > game is the know the numbering codes of the chips, I've been > compiling such a list for a couple of years, the revisions are > sometimes a little overwhelming.) > > Simple rule of them on the carts, chips always face AWAY from you > when plugged into a 400/800, 600/800XL and XE GS machines and face > DOWN on the 1200XL and 65XE/130XE machines. > > > > Curt > > > > David Betz wrote: >> Well, I did something really stupid this time. I had an old Atari >> 800 cartridge that had lost its label. I figured that maybe >> something inside would tell me what kind of cartridge it was so I >> took it apart. First, there was no marking on the PC board that >> gave any clue as to what cartridge it was. But worse, I didn't pay >> enough attention to the original orientation of the PC board inside >> the plastic housing so I don't know how to put it together again. >> The circuit board has a big blob of glue on the top of what I >> assume is a ROM chip. Does that side of the PC board face the side >> of the plastic housing with the screw or the other side? To make >> matters worse, I *found* the label for the cartridge at the bottom >> of my box of old Atari stuff so I didn't really need to take the >> cartridge apart after all. Can anyone give me some advice about how >> to reassemble the cartridge with the circuit board in the correct >> orientation? >> >> Thanks! >> David >> >> From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Mar 7 10:19:27 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:19:27 +0000 Subject: Test software for PANDA display? In-Reply-To: <20080307160354.GA5695@usap.gov> References: <20071208155147.GA3171@usap.gov> <002401c839c8$d0de4850$729ad8f0$@com> <20080307160354.GA5695@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080307161927.GA8523@usap.gov> On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 04:03:54PM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm finally nearing completion of my Panda display... Oops... that was meant to be off-list. Sorry. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Mar-2008 at 16:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.0 F (-42.8 C) Windchill -79.5 F (-61.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.5 kts Grid 32 Barometer 680.1 mb (10624 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 7 10:49:22 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 09:49:22 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D117BB.5000505@saw.net> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D117BB.5000505@saw.net> Message-ID: <47D17212.7070203@jetnet.ab.ca> davis wrote: > > From what I understand, The 6501 was a 6800 instruction clone that was > sued into history by Motor-ola. That was a good thing in hindsight ... it gave them time to add better clock generation on the 6502. Looking back, the 6800 clock was as much a pain as the 8080A clock, and no IC's at the time to generate the clocks too.( when they first came out) > Jim > > > . > From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Mar 7 13:05:40 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 11:05:40 -0800 Subject: RT-11 MACRO V5.05 Y2K crash 4-Mar-2008 and fix In-Reply-To: <47D13467.1040806@compsys.to> References: <47cbfce5.50171272@freenews.ozemail.com.au> <47D13467.1040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <47D19204.8090101@mindspring.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >paramucho wrote: > >> MACRO V5.05 crashed on 4-Mar-2008. >> It's a coding bug. MACRO was bit clearing a 5-bit rather than 4-bit >> field for the month. The fix: >> >> Loc Old New >> 62160 177740 177760 >> >> For other versions you're looking for this sequence: >> >> Old New >> 000315 >> 006215 >> 006215 >> 042725 >> 177740 177760 >> 010015 >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > This post appeared on alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 on > Monday, March 3rd, 2008. While it fixes the bug for the month, > the year is still incorrect. > > By the way, I can make available a full Y2K fix for V05.05 of MACRO > which includes a 4 digit year - as opposed to DEC's version which only > supports a 2 digit year. Just over a dozen words need to be modified, > so an SLP file is probably the way to submit it. Naturally, the patch > includes the above modification along with checking the rest of the > year in the date word. > > Is there sufficient interest in having the patch? I have not found any > interest in fixing bugs in RT-11, let alone in enhancements. Let > me know. I can also produce Y2K bug fixes for DIR, PIP, IND, > LINK, LIBR, etc. > > I use a free read only server to monitor a few text only news groups. > Does anyone know of a free server that I can use to post a few times > a year to news groups? Can anyone forward a post for me instead? > I would request that you "modify" my e-mail address to prevent spam. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > When I run my PDP-11s I set the date back in the late 80s or early 90s. It just seems much more appropriate. From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 13:14:04 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:14:04 -0800 Subject: RT-11 MACRO V5.05 Y2K crash 4-Mar-2008 and fix In-Reply-To: <47D13467.1040806@compsys.to> References: <47cbfce5.50171272@freenews.ozemail.com.au> <47D13467.1040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <7d3530220803071114o7817cafbi5e783af51b2bf62e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:26 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I use a free read only server to monitor a few text only news groups. > Does anyone know of a free server that I can use to post a few times > a year to news groups? Can anyone forward a post for me instead? > I would request that you "modify" my e-mail address to prevent spam. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > http://dotsrc.org/usenet/ John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 7 13:16:25 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 19:16:25 -0000 Subject: WaveMate Bullet history In-Reply-To: <001501c88057$46706420$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <001d01c88087$be231690$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Andrew Lynch wrote: > I wrote a Wikipedia page for the WaveMate Bullet. I think it is a > noteworthy historical computer but apparently the people at Wikipedia > disagree. Put in the classiccmp wiki: http://classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1316 - Release Date: 06/03/2008 18:58 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 7 14:03:55 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 12:03:55 -0800 Subject: Obsolete chips References: <200803070555.m275tJiW077387@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47D0777E.28043.D424BA0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47D19FAA.BB370C29@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The confusing thing about DTL part numbers is how they're > "shoehorned" within the RTL part number scheme. So, a 928 is RTL, > but a 930 is DTL; A similar situation exists with the 9000 numbers. > 9931 is DTL, 9989 is RTL. Yes, I think you can blame Fairchild for that, CTL (and CuL) series are also mixed in there to add to the confusion. (And the 958 ambiguity in the earlier lists.) > A point of curiosity that I have is what was the highest level of > integration achieved before DTL was relegated to the "obsolescent" > bin? I have a couple of Fairchild addressable 8-bit memories; was > there anything more elaborate? A full adder, perhaps? Would that be an 1128? The Fairchild 1966 IC catalog shows 1128 as an 8-bit DTL memory, along with the 6-bit DTL 9030 (and a 16-bit TTL-class). I can't think of any other MSI DTL, however for RTL-class the most complex I've seen are the Fairchild CuL (Counter MicroLogic): 958 decade counter 959 4-bit latch 960 decimal decoder nixie driver 989 4-bit binary counter which would be MSI-level devices. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Mar 7 14:04:36 2008 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 12:04:36 -0800 Subject: Large Pile, S-100 Computer Goodies Available Message-ID: <200803071204360469.2DC841FD@192.168.42.129> EQUIPMENT LOCATION: Kent, Washington, southeast of Seattle. NO SHIPPING. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY. Fellow techies, Since I'm no longer in the computer collecting arena, I think this would be of more use to others who are. I have available a huge pile (about 5 foot high by 3 or so wide) of S-100 computer stuff. There's one complete computer (a big NNC chassis with 8-inch floppies), plus a huge load of boards, documentation, extenders, an external drive cabinet, etc. This is taking up valuable space in my garage. I would much prefer that it take up space in someone else's, preferably someone who can appreciate it. With that in mind, first person to offer me $100 for the entire lot can have it. That cost is based solely on the time, gas, and effort I spent getting the stuff home. NO SHIPPING! LOCAL PICKUP ONLY! I don't have the facilities or tools to ship this lot, and I'm not sure I'd want to trust any of it to FedEx Ground or whoever in any case. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "Quid Malmborg in Plano..." From brain at jbrain.com Fri Mar 7 14:06:22 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:06:22 -0600 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D17212.7070203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D117BB.5000505@saw.net> <47D17212.7070203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47D1A03E.2010909@jbrain.com> woodelf wrote: > davis wrote: >> >> From what I understand, The 6501 was a 6800 instruction clone that >> was sued into history by Motor-ola. > That was a good thing in hindsight ... it gave them time to add better > clock > generation on the 6502. Looking back, the 6800 clock was as much a > pain as > the 8080A clock, and no IC's at the time to generate the clocks too.( > when they > first came out) >> Jim >> >> >> . >> > Probably good in more ways than one. I seem to recall the suit helped Jack Tramiel buy the company. Now, maybe not good from a MOS perspective, but CBM's ownership of a chip fab gave the world better access to technologies like SID, VIC, etc. It also drive those prices down. I can;t remember if Jack got MOS from the suit draining MOS cash so much, or if he cancelled a large calc chip order and put MOS in a bind. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From grant at stockly.com Fri Mar 7 14:30:35 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 11:30:35 -0900 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0JXD00JQKNMX74D0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 10:12 AM 3/6/2008, you wrote: >On Mar 6, 2008, at 2:02 PM, woodelf wrote: >>>Do you have any more information on this? Is it an official >>>document or something done to make a processor similar to a 6502? >>>I'd like to find the guy who did it. If he had the CAD file then >>>we could make a gerber. : D >>But who plans to solder in all them Fets. :) > > I'll do it! To woodelf... http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Front_2718.jpg http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Back_2716.jpg Soldering a few thousand of them 3 legged critters doesn't seem like that big of a job...compared to soldering 19,008 LEDs. : ) When I said I wanted blinkin lights for an Alitar, I took myself seriously! : ) And I saved the legs! http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-Weight_of_39584_Legs_2696.jpg From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Mar 7 14:27:31 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:27:31 -0500 Subject: RT-11 MACRO V5.05 Y2K crash 4-Mar-2008 and fix In-Reply-To: <47D19204.8090101@mindspring.com> References: <47cbfce5.50171272@freenews.ozemail.com.au> <47D13467.1040806@compsys.to> <47D19204.8090101@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <47D1A533.5040705@compsys.to> >Don North wrote: >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> By the way, I can make available a full Y2K fix for V05.05 of MACRO >> which includes a 4 digit year - as opposed to DEC's version which only >> supports a 2 digit year. Just over a dozen words need to be modified, >> so an SLP file is probably the way to submit it. Naturally, the patch >> includes the above modification along with checking the rest of the >> year in the date word. >> >> Is there sufficient interest in having the patch? I have not found any >> interest in fixing bugs in RT-11, let alone in enhancements. Let >> me know. I can also produce Y2K bug fixes for DIR, PIP, IND, >> LINK, LIBR, etc. > > When I run my PDP-11s I set the date back in the late 80s or early > 90s. It just seems much more appropriate. ROFLOL!!!!! Best reply I have seen so far. I guess you will not be interested in the Y9K (yes - dates up to 9999) bug fix. The only technical problem will be where to store the extra word for the year. The calendar will probably change sufficiently by then that it will no longer apply in any case. I think that VMS has sufficient capacity until about the year 24,000. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 7 14:43:08 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 13:43:08 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <0JXD00JQKNMX74D0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <0JXD00JQKNMX74D0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <47D1A8DC.20302@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > To woodelf... > > http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Front_2718.jpg > http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Back_2716.jpg So what is the led display for? > Soldering a few thousand of them 3 legged critters doesn't seem like > that big of a job...compared to soldering 19,008 LEDs. : ) > > When I said I wanted blinkin lights for an Alitar, I took myself > seriously! : ) > > And I saved the legs! > > http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-Weight_of_39584_Legs_2696.jpg > > . > From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 7 14:40:42 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 20:40:42 -0000 Subject: RT-11 MACRO V5.05 Y2K crash 4-Mar-2008 and fix In-Reply-To: <47D1A533.5040705@compsys.to> Message-ID: <002301c88093$83faf8f0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I think that VMS has sufficient capacity until about the > year 24,000. There was an SPR raised (apparently) for the 4-digit year field that permeates much of the code. "Will be fixed some time before 31-DEC-9999" was the gist of the answer! Actually I think there are other buglets that bite before then. When DECnis was being tested for Y2K, they also had to do some testing for Y3K and I think they didn't do Y4K because of some issue or other that cropped up. Has anyone setup OpenVMS on SIMH, set the date to 27-FEB-4000 and rebooted? Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1316 - Release Date: 06/03/2008 18:58 From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Mar 7 15:04:54 2008 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 13:04:54 -0800 Subject: S-100 Goodies claimed! Message-ID: <200803071304540470.2DFF772B@192.168.42.129> My thanks to Glen Slick of Redmond. He was the first local responder, and the S-100 pile has been claimed. Thanks also to the listmembers for putting up with my occasional ads. Happy tweaking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "Quid Malmborg in Plano..." From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 7 15:36:27 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 21:36:27 -0000 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D1A8DC.20302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002801c8809b$4de2e220$5b01a8c0@uatempname> woodelf wrote: > Grant Stockly wrote: > >> http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Front_2718.jpg >> http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Back_2716.jpg > > So what is the led display for? Can we see it in action? Will we need a picture or can you just tell us when you plan to turn it on and we check for a glow in the sky :-) Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1316 - Release Date: 06/03/2008 18:58 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 7 16:04:17 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 14:04:17 -0800 Subject: Reassembling an Atari cartridge In-Reply-To: <1793167A-0D17-4E84-8EC8-8DDE8113D2F7@xlisper.com> References: <1793167A-0D17-4E84-8EC8-8DDE8113D2F7@xlisper.com> Message-ID: > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > > Well, I did something really stupid this time. I had an old Atari 800 > cartridge that had lost its label. I figured that maybe something > inside would tell me what kind of cartridge it was so I took it apart. > First, there was no marking on the PC board that gave any clue as to > what cartridge it was. But worse, I didn't pay enough attention to the > original orientation of the PC board inside the plastic housing so I > don't know how to put it together again. The circuit board has a big > blob of glue on the top of what I assume is a ROM chip. Does that side > of the PC board face the side of the plastic housing with the screw or > the other side? To make matters worse, I *found* the label for the > cartridge at the bottom of my box of old Atari stuff so I didn't > really need to take the cartridge apart after all. Can anyone give me > some advice about how to reassemble the cartridge with the circuit > board in the correct orientation? > > Thanks! > David Hi Take another cartridge apart but this time note the orientation. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 7 16:28:55 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:28:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WaveMate Bullet history In-Reply-To: <001d01c88087$be231690$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <999314.21208.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I was going to suggest that. I gotta find time to finish tidying up, and add more, to the games consoles section. (assuming noone else has already done it) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Antonio Carlini wrote: Andrew Lynch wrote: > I wrote a Wikipedia page for the WaveMate Bullet. I think it is a > noteworthy historical computer but apparently the people at Wikipedia > disagree. Put in the classiccmp wiki: http://classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 7 16:40:56 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:40:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Reassembling an Atari cartridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <372348.5250.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> "Note the orientation"? If I were you I'd video it or get some to take pictures at various stages. Atleast that way we can see inside the cartridge too :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk dwight elvey wrote: > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > > Well, I did something really stupid this time. I had an old Atari 800 > cartridge that had lost its label. I figured that maybe something > inside would tell me what kind of cartridge it was so I took it apart. > First, there was no marking on the PC board that gave any clue as to > what cartridge it was. But worse, I didn't pay enough attention to the > original orientation of the PC board inside the plastic housing so I > don't know how to put it together again. The circuit board has a big > blob of glue on the top of what I assume is a ROM chip. Does that side > of the PC board face the side of the plastic housing with the screw or > the other side? To make matters worse, I *found* the label for the > cartridge at the bottom of my box of old Atari stuff so I didn't > really need to take the cartridge apart after all. Can anyone give me > some advice about how to reassemble the cartridge with the circuit > board in the correct orientation? > > Thanks! > David Hi Take another cartridge apart but this time note the orientation. Dwight From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Mar 7 16:48:44 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 17:48:44 -0500 Subject: Reassembling an Atari cartridge In-Reply-To: <372348.5250.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <372348.5250.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B3A2AF6-9656-4CA4-AAB5-7616CC050FC7@xlisper.com> > "Note the orientation"? > > If I were you I'd video it or get some to take pictures at various > stages. Atleast that way we can see inside the cartridge too :) The inside wasn't that interesting. Just a PC board with a blob of glue on it (presumably hiding the ROM). Of course, it would be much *more* interesting if I actually had a machine to try it on. Anyone have a 48k 800 or an 800xl they want to part with? From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Mar 7 16:59:56 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:59:56 -0600 Subject: WaveMate Bullet history In-Reply-To: <001d01c88087$be231690$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <001d01c88087$be231690$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <47D1C8EC.7090001@pacbell.net> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Andrew Lynch wrote: >> I wrote a Wikipedia page for the WaveMate Bullet. I think it is a >> noteworthy historical computer but apparently the people at Wikipedia >> disagree. > > Put in the classiccmp wiki: > > http://classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page I don't get it. I went to that page and there are nothing but dead links. What is the point of putting in a line item for a machine when there is no content behind it? http://classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Microcomputers There isn't a single link there that has *anything* on it. (And it is silly to have separate sections for Radio Shack and Tandy.) What is the intent of the page at all? Is the idea that there is someone waiting to write a document containing information that isn't already copiously available via google or wikipedia, but the thing holding them back is access to a blank page? Like I said, I don't get it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 7 16:34:27 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:34:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D07FD0.4000604@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 6, 8 04:35:44 pm Message-ID: > Thinking back a homebrew computer ( with a change in the cpu card) was > in BYTE a 6800 or a 6502 machine. The 6800 and 6502 buses are indeed very similar, so this does not suprise me at all. I think the UK-designed Tangerine machine had a CPU card with overlapping 40 pin IC pads for either a 6800 or a 6502 (you had to change the monitor ROMs as well, of course). -tony From scheefj at netscape.net Fri Mar 7 17:32:30 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:32:30 -0500 Subject: WaveMate Bullet history In-Reply-To: <001501c88057$46706420$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <001501c88057$46706420$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <47D1D08E.4010907@netscape.net> Andrew, Add a link from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_machines_running_CP/M to your Wavemate entry. This will add "relavance". Jim Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > > > I wrote a Wikipedia page for the WaveMate Bullet. I think it is a > noteworthy historical computer but apparently the people at Wikipedia > disagree. > > > > They have placed the "This article may not meet the general notability > guideline " tag on the > page. Apparently, this is a prelude to deletion as a non-relevant article. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WaveMate_Bullet > > > > I will agree the WaveMate Bullet certainly isn't the most common vintage > computer and even my Wikipedia page stub isn't all that great. > > > > However, there are ought to be *some* notation in the historical record of > this machine existing. Practically nothing on it exists on the internet. > > > > If anyone has any pictures or reference material on the WaveMate Bullet and > would like to include it in the Wikipedia page, please either edit the page > or send it to me and I will include it. > > > > It sure would be a shame to see this classic vintage CP/M disappear without > so much as minor footnote of it ever existing. > > > > Thanks in advance for any help. > > > > Andrew Lynch > > > > PS, Don Maslin thought it was a note worthy machine and he even thought it > belonged in the top 150 most collectible vintage computers. Too bad he is > not here to defend it any longer. > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Mar 7 17:33:18 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 23:33:18 +0000 Subject: Q-bus to CF [was: IOmega] In-Reply-To: <20080306200010.GA11725@usap.gov> References: <20080305224709.GA10780@usap.gov> <021301c87fbe$210700c0$0b0c010a@portajara> <20080306200010.GA11725@usap.gov> Message-ID: <1204932798.12152.0.camel@elric> On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 20:00 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's been beaten to death on the list in the past, but CF is not a good > choice for a long-term use with a swapping OS (VMS and Ultrix in this case). > I don't know enough about RSX and RSTS internals to know if they do lots of > writes to the boot drive or not. So have a storage device and a swap device. The swap device can just be some RAM ;-) Gordon From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 7 18:02:24 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 00:02:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WaveMate Bullet history In-Reply-To: <47D1C8EC.7090001@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <264299.62639.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Well, I'll own up to adding the links for Radio Shack and Tandy, as I was planning on adding some stuff about TRS-80's at a later date. To my knowledge Tandy and Radio Shack were separate until around the time of the TRS-80's. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The whole Wiki site was set up about a year (or more) ago and like the knowledge-base pages has unfortunately been left pretty desolate :( I started adding stuff after Mark de Jong asked me to help out with www.amigacoding.com which is also wiki-based. However, time constraints and various projects have left me with little time for it lately :( As for adding a line with no content behind it, you have to add dead links to be able to create the page. Or atleast, thats how I believe Wiki sites work. I am fairly new to Wiki stuff, so could be wrong on that too. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Jim Battle wrote: Antonio Carlini wrote: > Andrew Lynch wrote: >> I wrote a Wikipedia page for the WaveMate Bullet. I think it is a >> noteworthy historical computer but apparently the people at Wikipedia >> disagree. > > Put in the classiccmp wiki: > > http://classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page I don't get it. I went to that page and there are nothing but dead links. What is the point of putting in a line item for a machine when there is no content behind it? http://classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Microcomputers There isn't a single link there that has *anything* on it. (And it is silly to have separate sections for Radio Shack and Tandy.) What is the intent of the page at all? Is the idea that there is someone waiting to write a document containing information that isn't already copiously available via google or wikipedia, but the thing holding them back is access to a blank page? Like I said, I don't get it. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 7 18:04:01 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:04:01 -0600 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <1F2B7341-B85F-4948-A924-C81A580FCCC3@microspot.co.uk> References: <200803060359.m263wmH4063112@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1F2B7341-B85F-4948-A924-C81A580FCCC3@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <47D1D7F1.9050900@oldskool.org> Roger Holmes wrote: > point, such as storing angles as a fraction of a circle, so that if you > add/subtract two angles together you don't have to do mod 360 or 2Pi as > it automatically overflows and gives you the correct answer. Not so Wouldn't that imply that your system works off of a basis of 256 degrees instead of 360? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 7 18:07:11 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 00:07:11 -0000 Subject: WaveMate Bullet history In-Reply-To: <47D1C8EC.7090001@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <002901c880b0$5ccce370$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jim Battle wrote: > I don't get it. I went to that page and there are nothing but dead > links. What is the point of putting in a line item for a machine when > there is no content behind it? No idea. I don't "do" wikis so I don't know what the "right" way to run one might be. You might think of the links as placeholders perhaps. > There isn't a single link there that has *anything* on it. (And it is > silly to have separate sections for Radio Shack and Tandy.) The "Video Games" link has some stuff on it. If I find where I've stuffed my collected VAX info, I'll go and add some pages for those. > What is the intent of the page at all? Is the idea that there is > someone waiting to write a document containing information that isn't > already copiously available via google or wikipedia, but the thing > holding them back is access to a blank page? Like I said, I don't > get it. Well apparently "copious" is an inappropriate adjective for the amount of extant information in regard to the WaveMate Bullet. Let's see if the blank pages help :-) The wiki has not been around that long: it's a little early to say that it's use will never take off. It just needs a bit of a kick start. The knowledge base is a little like that too. There are plenty of blank pages on the net: a few more won't hurt. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1316 - Release Date: 06/03/2008 18:58 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Mar 7 20:11:43 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 18:11:43 -0800 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803071811.44178.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Peter, On Friday 07 March 2008 12:45, pludikar at sympatico.ca wrote: --snip-- > If anyone is interested I wrote an HP-913x emulator which I have > used very successfully with my HP1630B logic analyser. Not the > most elegant pieces of code, but it does work! It behaves like an > HP drive to the 1630 but stores everything on my PC hard drive. > It's a base Amigo emulatation and I only included the > functionality necassary to make it work, but the code's should not > be difficult to extend to SS/80 and CS/80. I can post the source > for someone to put it somewhere more accessible and permanent. > Let me know. Yes, please post the source! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Mar 7 23:07:55 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 00:07:55 -0500 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803080007.55185.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 March 2008 17:34, Tony Duell wrote: > > Thinking back a homebrew computer ( with a change in the cpu card) was > > in BYTE a 6800 or a 6502 machine. > > The 6800 and 6502 buses are indeed very similar, so this does not suprise > me at all. > > I think the UK-designed Tangerine machine had a CPU card with overlapping > 40 pin IC pads for either a 6800 or a 6502 (you had to change the monitor > ROMs as well, of course). Which reminds me, does anybody else remember those machines that had multiple CPUs in them? Or the option of plugging different ones in? Seems to me real early on there were some mfrs trying to find as much compatibility as they could with pursuing options like that. I remember one Taiwanese-made clone of an Apple II that had a Z80 on the main board, and of course the c128 has that similar setup (though the way the hardware was structured the z80 effectively ran at something like 2.5MHz). I remember some other system where you could literally plug in different processors for different uses, but the brand name isn't coming to mind at the moment. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat Mar 8 02:13:41 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 03:13:41 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Xyplex MX1710 documentation Message-ID: <8CA4F0B7408906C-D8C-4900@webmail-nc09.sysops.aol.com> I'm have been trying (unsuccessfully) to locate documentation for a Xyplex MX1710 TCP/IP LAT Gateway. Naturally, I've tried the Xyplex website, which still has some of the software, but the documentation they have listed under the 1710 heading is generic access server information for totally unrelated hardware; nothing 1710 specific. I have also contacted Xyplex (MRV), and was told that since it was no longer supported, they wouldn't do a document search for me. I'd be happy to pay reasonable scanning/copying/mailing fees. Thanks in advance for your help ! T From philip at axeside.co.uk Fri Mar 7 14:29:02 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:29:02 +0000 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <200803062356.50664.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <200803062356.50664.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47D1A58E.20903@axeside.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I have a bunch of 65xx parts on hand, if anybody is looking for some... Well, I'm short of a 6520 PIA! Have you any of those left? If so, please contact me off list. When I was 13 (1980. Ouch!) I was given a PET for my birthday. A few years later I blew up an output buffer in one of the 6520s trying to use the Cassette 2 motor output as a controlled power supply. We connected one of those two-tone doobells that uses the back emf from the "ding" solenoid when you open the switch to sound the "dong". Said back emf killed the output buffer on that pin of the 6520. It managed to do so without any noticeable damage to the intervening circuitry, too! I have other PETs, but (a) I want to preserve my "original" one and (b) it goes against the grain to scavenge chips from another working system. My PET is useable, but I have to swap the 6520s around depending on what I/O function I need... Philip. From pludikar at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 7 14:45:56 2008 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (pludikar at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:45:56 +0000 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: <200803070711.m277BiO2078967@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: From: Tony Duell >Anyway, there were at least 3 command sets ued by HP -- Amigo (mostly used >on older flippy drives), SS/80 (more modern floppies and small hard disks) >and CS/80 (larger hard disks). I _think_ specifcations of all exist, I have >some of the mon paper, or a poke around on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ may >find something (for some odd reason this information is often included as >an appendix to the boardswapper guides!). If anyone is interested I wrote an HP-913x emulator which I have used very successfully with my HP1630B logic analyser. Not the most elegant pieces of code, but it does work! It behaves like an HP drive to the 1630 but stores everything on my PC hard drive. It's a base Amigo emulatation and I only included the functionality necassary to make it work, but the code's should not be difficult to extend to SS/80 and CS/80. I can post the source for someone to put it somewhere more accessible and permanent. Let me know. Peter From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Fri Mar 7 23:03:06 2008 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 21:03:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer History Museum Artifact Storage Open House Message-ID: <648014.68074.qm@web35304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> CHM had an open house today for its new artifact storage building. Some pictures can be found at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157604065526114/ Enjoy! Lee Courtney From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 8 03:00:01 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 04:00:01 -0500 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D1A58E.20903@axeside.co.uk> References: <200803062356.50664.rtellason@verizon.net> <47D1A58E.20903@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <200803080400.01943.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 March 2008 15:29, Philip Belben wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I have a bunch of 65xx parts on hand, if anybody is looking for some... > > Well, I'm short of a 6520 PIA! Have you any of those left? If so, > please contact me off list. > > When I was 13 (1980. Ouch!) I was given a PET for my birthday. A few > years later I blew up an output buffer in one of the 6520s trying to use > the Cassette 2 motor output as a controlled power supply. We connected > one of those two-tone doobells that uses the back emf from the "ding" > solenoid when you open the switch to sound the "dong". Said back emf > killed the output buffer on that pin of the 6520. It managed to do so > without any noticeable damage to the intervening circuitry, too! > > I have other PETs, but (a) I want to preserve my "original" one and (b) > it goes against the grain to scavenge chips from another working system. > My PET is useable, but I have to swap the 6520s around depending on > what I/O function I need... Them I don't seem to show in my list, though I have lots of 6522 and 6526. Maybe I'll do some digging and see if I can't find one someplace, but so far it's not looking good... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Mar 8 04:22:00 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 10:22:00 +0000 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D1A58E.20903@axeside.co.uk> References: <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <200803062356.50664.rtellason@verizon.net> <47D1A58E.20903@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <47D268C8.2050403@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/03/2008 20:29, Philip Belben wrote: > Well, I'm short of a 6520 PIA! Have you any of those left? If so, > please contact me off list. > > When I was 13 (1980. Ouch!) I was given a PET for my birthday. A few > years later I blew up an output buffer in one of the 6520s trying to use > the Cassette 2 motor output as a controlled power supply. We connected > one of those two-tone doobells that uses the back emf from the "ding" > solenoid when you open the switch to sound the "dong". Said back emf > killed the output buffer on that pin of the 6520. It managed to do so > without any noticeable damage to the intervening circuitry, too! Common problem -- 6520s are fragile. For that reason, it was common, at least here, to replace them with Motorola MC6821s, which was a later version of the MC6820, which is just the same as the MCS6520. Lots of the PETs at the college where I worked in the early 80s had Motorola replacements because the 6821 seems to be more robust than the 6520. So replacing the missing or damaged 6520 with a Motorola MC6821, which should be much easier to find, even has a degree of authenticity :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 8 05:26:42 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 03:26:42 -0800 Subject: Computer History Museum Artifact Storage Open House In-Reply-To: <648014.68074.qm@web35304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <648014.68074.qm@web35304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200803080326.42167.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 07 March 2008 21:03, Lee Courtney wrote: > CHM had an open house today for its new artifact > storage building. Some pictures can be found at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157604065526114/ Thanks for the pictures, Lee. It was fun being at the "Yosemite Open House" today - and I, along with many others, are sure appreciative of all of the work it took on the part of CHM staff and volunteers to accomplish this massive move! It's difficult to capture the size (enormous) of this facility for storage of items not on display at the CHM - but these pictures help. Now on to the next step - to move all the "invisible storage" goodies, etc., at the CHM to the new facility... :-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 8 10:36:06 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 08:36:06 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <200803080837.m288b6Aj091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803080837.m288b6Aj091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 00:07:55 -0500 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Which reminds me, does anybody else remember those machines that had > multiple CPUs in them? Or the option of plugging different ones in? > Seems to me real early on there were some mfrs trying to find as much > compatibility as they could with pursuing options like that. I remember > one Taiwanese-made clone of an Apple II that had a Z80 on the main board, > and of course the c128 has that similar setup (though the way the hardware > was structured the z80 effectively ran at something like 2.5MHz). I > remember some other system where you could literally plug in different > processors for different uses, but the brand name isn't coming to mind at > the moment. Extremely common in the S-100 world (think Godbout/Compupro, Cromemco, etc.). Bill Godbout may have offered the widest range of processor boards from a single manufacturer. Early on, there were 6502 S-100 boards, but not very popular. There were other non S-100 vendors of optional CPU configurations. Didn't The Digital Group offer a choice in their boxes? Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 14:03:58 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 14:03:58 -0600 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Well I finally got the IBM - mine is a 6151/115. Not sure what the last digits signify. Original hard drive? I didn't think it's like IBM to put the hard drive size on the faceplate like that. Keyboard connector - definitely odd. Fortunately the 'board itself is a regular Model M, which made replacing the keys damaged in shipping easy. Unfortunately the cable is not modular on the keyboard end, so I'll have to make sure to keep it out of range of the cats :) The mouse looks like a strange connector, too. Unfortunately I got no mouse with the system :( Don't know how much RAM I've got. How can I tell? The system doesn't turn the display on until AIX is booting, so if there's a POST screen I can't see it. As everyone noted, it is *heavy*! I'm used to heavy workstations from the mid-80s (Sun 3, SGI and the like) but this one tops the list, at least in my collection. There is what looks like the standard IBM 37-pin external floppy connector on one of the cards. Is that what it is? Or maybe for a tape drive? If it's the latter I may even have a drive for it... All in all an interesting historical footnote machine. I booted it and played Hunt the Wumpus on it last night, so I'm happy with it. :) It also had a Stallion 16-port RS-232 card in it, with breakout box, which I removed so as not to damage the cabling going to the box. Cool as it is, it's unlikely I will ever use more than one external serial device on this box, if any. Can anyone make use of this kit? I'd be happy to trade it for just about anything - help getting a copy of the O/S for this machine would be ideal. I believe these are all ISA slots, so perhaps it will work on a PC also? Here's a pic of the box: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/2318580337/ -- jht From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 8 14:39:57 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 15:39:57 -0500 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803080837.m288b6Aj091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200803081539.57797.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 08 March 2008 11:36, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 00:07:55 -0500 > > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > > > Which reminds me, does anybody else remember those machines that had > > multiple CPUs in them? Or the option of plugging different ones in? > > Seems to me real early on there were some mfrs trying to find as much > > compatibility as they could with pursuing options like that. I remember > > one Taiwanese-made clone of an Apple II that had a Z80 on the main board, > > and of course the c128 has that similar setup (though the way the > > hardware was structured the z80 effectively ran at something like > > 2.5MHz). I remember some other system where you could literally plug in > > different processors for different uses, but the brand name isn't coming > > to mind at the moment. > > Extremely common in the S-100 world (think Godbout/Compupro, > Cromemco, etc.). Bill Godbout may have offered the widest range of > processor boards from a single manufacturer. Early on, there were > 6502 S-100 boards, but not very popular. > > There were other non S-100 vendors of optional CPU configurations. > Didn't The Digital Group offer a choice in their boxes? S-100 wasn't really what I was thinking of, though they did tend toward heavier-duty chips when they became available a little later on. Digital Group was one name that was in the back of my mind when I posted that. I think Ohio Scientific also offered a number of choices for CPU, though I never got to know their equipment well enough to be able to say if one system could handle multiple choices. They also stand out in my mind as being the first company I remember seeing advertise a hard drive for personal computers, a whopping 74MB if I'm remembering right. A place I was working at considered them for a bit but on being asked if they could provide references in terms of folks that had bought one, they didn't come through with that info. There was one other company, though, and I still can't recall the name, that tried unsuccessfully to market some system that would let you plug in different CPU boards to run different software. I'm vaguely thinking of toy company names, but somehow that doesn't quite seem right. Time frame would've been a little later than a bunch of this other stuff, maybe early 1980s or so? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 8 14:31:52 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 20:31:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D1A58E.20903@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Mar 7, 8 08:29:02 pm Message-ID: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > I have a bunch of 65xx parts on hand, if anybody is looking for some... > > Well, I'm short of a 6520 PIA! Have you any of those left? If so, > please contact me off list. Is there any reason why this can't e replaced by a 6821, which is a lot more common? -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 8 16:09:17 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 14:09:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803080837.m288b6Aj091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080308134207.Q25753@shell.lmi.net> > Which reminds me, does anybody else remember those machines that had > multiple CPUs in them? Or the option of plugging different ones in? Dimension 68000 was deliberately a multi-processor machine: 68000, 8088, 6502, Z80? and, of course, we hafta mention Dec Rainbow and Eagle machines with 8088 and Z80 Basis? (Apple ][ copy) had Z80 +6502 at one point, somebody at Apple estimated that 20% of all Apple]['s had Z80 softcards There were alternate processor cards for PC, including Z80, 6502, 68000, 80386, . . . From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Mar 8 16:33:06 2008 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 14:33:06 -0800 Subject: Son of Motorola (or, the $20 CPU Chip) Message-ID: <000501c8816c$a5440a90$6601a8c0@downstairs2> The November 1975 issues of BYTE magazine has a seven page article comparing the Motorola 6800 to the upcoming MOS Technology MCS6501 and MCS6502. The article was written by Daniel Fylstra based on a visit to MOS Technology in August 1975, a month before the announcement at WESCON. I have scanned it and placed a copy on my web site. This is a searchable PDF file (1880 KB). It would be nice if someone with a 6500 focused web site wants to host this file. I also have 300 dpi tiff files and a 8.5 MB high resolution PDF file of this article http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/Nov1975/Son_Of_Motorola.pdf Here is an article from the Commodore site. Electrical Engineering Times. August 25, 1975. Does The Country Need A Good $20 Microprocessor? http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/magazines/misc/mos_605x_team_eetimes_august_1975.pdf Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Sat Mar 8 16:40:43 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 09:10:43 +1030 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics Message-ID: > To woodelf... > > ... > Soldering a few thousand of them 3 legged critters doesn't seem like > that big of a job...compared to soldering 19,008 LEDs. : ) > > When I said I wanted blinkin lights for an Alitar, I took myself > seriously! : ) > Wow. Do you mean to emulate the [i]image[/i] of an Altair front panel? Um, that would be, what, a hardware virtual implementation? Oy, my head hurts... -Bobby From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 8 16:47:03 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:47:03 -0500 Subject: Son of Motorola (or, the $20 CPU Chip) In-Reply-To: <000501c8816c$a5440a90$6601a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000501c8816c$a5440a90$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <200803081747.04081.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 08 March 2008 17:33, Michael Holley wrote: > The November 1975 issues of BYTE magazine has a seven page article > comparing the Motorola 6800 to the upcoming MOS Technology MCS6501 and > MCS6502. The article was written by Daniel Fylstra based on a visit to MOS > Technology in August 1975, a month before the announcement at WESCON. > > I have scanned it and placed a copy on my web site. This is a searchable > PDF file (1880 KB). It would be nice if someone with a 6500 focused web > site wants to host this file. I also have 300 dpi tiff files and a 8.5 MB > high resolution PDF file of this article > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/Nov1975/Son_Of_Motorola.pdf > > > Here is an article from the Commodore site. > Electrical Engineering Times. August 25, 1975. > Does The Country Need A Good $20 Microprocessor? > http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/magazines/misc/mos_605x_team_eetimes_august >_1975.pdf > > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com/mholley Fun stuff, and added to the pile here. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Sat Mar 8 17:04:34 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 09:34:34 +1030 Subject: 14-in disk platters (for 2N2/256-BSCP) Message-ID: I've acquired some scrap 14-in drive platters. They're scuffed up (no real dings) and a touch corroded (more like stained), so I reckon I'll have to remove the oxide coating and recoat them. Any ideas how to remove the oxide coating, short of sanding? Should I recoat with oxide, or would nickel plating be better? In the Olden Days I understand they just painted the oxide goop on, perhaps spinning the platters to smooth it out. Also, the platters came as just bare disks, no spindles or hubs (or whatever; I'm pretty hazy what the mechanics of these large drives were). Any suggestions about finding or improvising a spindle/hub for these puppies? Unfortunately, the dimensions involved are a bit outside the capacity of my wee Taig lathe :) I've been scavenging VCR drum heads, and the bearings in these are pretty high-class, so perhaps they might be a start. I don't think the drum motor itself would have the grunt to turn a 14-in platter at the required speed, not without rewinding the stator and replacing the ferrite rotor magnets with Neodymium magnets. The folks who rewind CD-ROM motors to power electric RC planes might have a few tricks I could use. -Bobby From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 8 17:35:39 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:35:39 -0700 Subject: Computer History Museum Artifact Storage Open House In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Mar 2008 21:03:06 -0800. <648014.68074.qm@web35304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing these photos! Is this a CDC console? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Mar 8 17:53:47 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 18:53:47 -0500 Subject: Computer History Museum Artifact Storage Open House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803081853.47664.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 08 March 2008 18:35, Richard wrote: > Thanks for sharing these photos! > > Is this a CDC console? > > 065526114/> Yes, from a CDC 6x00 Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 8 17:58:44 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:58:44 -0700 Subject: CDC console (was: Computer History Museum Artifact Storage Open House) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:53:47 -0500. <200803081853.47664.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200803081853.47664.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Saturday 08 March 2008 18:35, Richard wrote: > > Thanks for sharing these photos! > > > > Is this a CDC console? > > > > >065526114/> > > Yes, from a CDC 6x00 Does anyone have one of these in an operating condition? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mwichary at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 18:08:50 2008 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 16:08:50 -0800 Subject: Computer History Museum Artifact Storage Open House In-Reply-To: <200803081853.47664.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200803081853.47664.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1debc0350803081608m639a3dc1j233fef668b2ad476@mail.gmail.com> Yes, CDC 6400, to be precise... (First post. Hey, everyone! I will properly introduce myself tomorrow. :) ) On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 08 March 2008 18:35, Richard wrote: > > Thanks for sharing these photos! > > > > Is this a CDC console? > > > > >065526114/> > > Yes, from a CDC 6x00 > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > -- Marcin Wichary Sr. user experience designer, Google Graphical User Interface gallery >> www.guidebookgallery.org From davis at saw.net Sat Mar 8 18:50:10 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:50:10 -0800 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D33442.6010204@saw.net> Richard wrote: > In article <200803081853.47664.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > >> On Saturday 08 March 2008 18:35, Richard wrote: >> >>> Thanks for sharing these photos! >>> >>> Is this a CDC console? >>> >>> >> 065526114/> >>> >> Yes, from a CDC 6x00 >> > > Does anyone have one of these in an operating condition? > An apocryphal story I heard was that the graphics on the display are disk/?drum refreshed. If true, I assume you would need the better part of a CDC 6x00 to get anything out of it. Jim. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 8 20:11:41 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 21:11:41 -0500 Subject: wondering what 'puter this is? Message-ID: <200803082111.41988.rtellason@verizon.net> http://ed-thelen.org/stories_tech.html#BIRDiE-Techie -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Mar 8 21:14:57 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 22:14:57 -0500 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: <47D33442.6010204@saw.net> References: <47D33442.6010204@saw.net> Message-ID: <200803082214.57830.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 08 March 2008 19:50, davis wrote: > An apocryphal story I heard was that the graphics on the display are > disk/?drum refreshed. If true, I assume you would need the better > part of a CDC 6x00 to get anything out of it. I know that that's not correct. They can display parts of memory in realtime (a changeable address). From my (hazy) memory, I think they were a vector display, which did a text to vector conversion in the console hardware. I don't know how much cabling there was to connect it to the system itself, the 6x00 series of CDC stuff was a bit before my time. :) Some others on the list should know a bit more about it than I do. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rcini at optonline.net Sat Mar 8 21:27:46 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 22:27:46 -0500 Subject: Group buy of 1541-III PCB's? In-Reply-To: <471F4690.6030303@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: Following up on an old thread... On 10/24/07 9:20 AM, "Doc Shipley" wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I know there was some interest in 1541-III PCB's recently. Vincent >> Slyngstad and I have been discussing this since that time, and he has >> done up schematic in Eagle CAD and has the initial board layout done >> (actually three different versions using different SD Sockets). The big >> difference between this and the original design is that it uses through >> the hole parts wherever possible rather than surface mount parts. Did anyone ever hear from the project owner or have boards made on his own? Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 21:36:21 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 22:36:21 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D35B35.2090704@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > Well I finally got the IBM - mine is a 6151/115. Not sure what the > last digits signify. Original hard drive? I didn't think it's like > IBM to put the hard drive size on the faceplate like that. IBM's standard way of marking machines is Type-Model. XXXX-XXX The -XXX will tell you about its original configuration. CPU, memory, disk, everything. For example, an IBM 2007-AD1 (the machine I'm typing this on), is a ThinkPad T60p with a/b/g wireless, 2GB RAM, 100GB 7200RPM SATA disk, bluetooth, no fingerprint reader and ATI Mobility FireGL V5200 graphics. Knowing just the type and model is enough to tell me all I need to look *all* of that up. Usually, the first digit of the model is a major revision, and the last two refer to a specific configuration. I have my doubts as to whether a drive as large as 115MB would have been a common default factory configuration on that machine. > Keyboard connector - definitely odd. Fortunately the 'board itself is > a regular Model M, which made replacing the keys damaged in shipping > easy. Unfortunately the cable is not modular on the keyboard end, so > I'll have to make sure to keep it out of range of the cats :) > > The mouse looks like a strange connector, too. Unfortunately I got no > mouse with the system :( I wouldn't worry about it, if you don't have a Megapixel card and monitor. If you do, then it would be worth it to get a mouse. > Don't know how much RAM I've got. How can I tell? The system doesn't > turn the display on until AIX is booting, so if there's a POST screen > I can't see it. There's nothing there to see. IBM workstation posts didn't display anything on the screen until *very* recently. > As everyone noted, it is *heavy*! I'm used to heavy workstations from > the mid-80s (Sun 3, SGI and the like) but this one tops the list, at > least in my collection. Welcome to the world of IBM, with plastics heavier than steel. > There is what looks like the standard IBM 37-pin external floppy > connector on one of the cards. Is that what it is? Or maybe for a > tape drive? If it's the latter I may even have a drive for it... I can't help you there. I doubt any third-party tape drive would be compatible, though, > All in all an interesting historical footnote machine. I booted it > and played Hunt the Wumpus on it last night, so I'm happy with it. :) I don't know if I'd call it a footnote, since it led directly to RS/6000. > It also had a Stallion 16-port RS-232 card in it, with breakout box, > which I removed so as not to damage the cabling going to the box. > Cool as it is, it's unlikely I will ever use more than one external > serial device on this box, if any. Can anyone make use of this kit? > I'd be happy to trade it for just about anything - help getting a copy > of the O/S for this machine would be ideal. I believe these are all > ISA slots, so perhaps it will work on a PC also? Here's a pic of the > box: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/2318580337/ I'd be interested in that card, cable and box. Email me. We might be able to come to an arrangement. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 8 21:56:27 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 19:56:27 -0800 Subject: Group buy of 1541-III PCB's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:27 PM -0500 3/8/08, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> I know there was some interest in 1541-III PCB's recently. Vincent >>> Slyngstad and I have been discussing this since that time, and he has >>> done up schematic in Eagle CAD and has the initial board layout done >>> (actually three different versions using different SD Sockets). The big >>> difference between this and the original design is that it uses through >>> the hole parts wherever possible rather than surface mount parts. > >Did anyone ever hear from the project owner or have boards made on his own? I've not had time to research this any more, my wife and I had our third child in November. Since then I've had basically no free time to deal with classic computer stuff. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brain at jbrain.com Sat Mar 8 22:17:50 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 22:17:50 -0600 Subject: Group buy of 1541-III PCB's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D364EE.4060200@jbrain.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Following up on an old thread... > > On 10/24/07 9:20 AM, "Doc Shipley" wrote: > > >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> I know there was some interest in 1541-III PCB's recently. Vincent >>> Slyngstad and I have been discussing this since that time, and he has >>> done up schematic in Eagle CAD and has the initial board layout done >>> (actually three different versions using different SD Sockets). The big >>> difference between this and the original design is that it uses through >>> the hole parts wherever possible rather than surface mount parts. >>> > > Did anyone ever hear from the project owner or have boards made on his own? > I can't speak to the 1541-III, but I would plug the sd2iec, which offers many of the same features, and Can be breadboarded if you want) Jim From legalize at xmission.com Sat Mar 8 22:57:39 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 21:57:39 -0700 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:50:10 -0800. <47D33442.6010204@saw.net> Message-ID: In article <47D33442.6010204 at saw.net>, davis writes: > > Does anyone have one of these in an operating condition? > > > An apocryphal story I heard was that the graphics on the display are > disk/?drum refreshed. If true, I assume you would need the better part > of a CDC 6x00 to get anything out of it. Even if this was true, there would be a place in the hardware where you could playback "fake" drum outputs. But apparently its not true, so we don't need to worry about that :-). Does anyone know of a source for these kinds of round CRT tubes? The SAGE console also used round vector CRT tubes (although they look like they are much larger diameter tubes than what's in the CDC console) and it would be nice to find a modern supplier for these sorts of tubes. The CDC console is another one that looks like it would be nice to have as a working replica. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rickb at bensene.com Sat Mar 8 23:18:32 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 21:18:32 -0800 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: <200803082214.57830.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <47D33442.6010204@saw.net> <200803082214.57830.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: The displays on the console were driven by a PPU (Peripheral Processing Unit), which were small scalar processors (actually, one processor multiplexed to appear as a number of independent CPUs), akin to small minicomputers (like a PDP-8), which operated out of shared sections of main memory. There was a PPU program that ran the display, generating it from data in a section of memory. The displays were vector only, not raster. There was dedicated hardware in the display console that did CDC character set (a 6-bit code) conversion to vector characters. Vector graphics were possible, within the limitations of the speed of the PPU. On later 6x00-series systems, such as the CYBER-73, the PPUs ran fast enough to generate a nice looking all-vector chessboard on the left screen, and a text-based transcript of the moves on the right screen. There were also a number of other cute programs, one being a pair of eyes (one on each screen) which would look around and blink. The operating system was called KRONOS, and I clearly remember that the console command to run the "eye" program was "X.EYES". Some privileged users could remotely fire off this EYES program from a terminal, and it'd make for a bit of a surprise, especially when we gave tours of the computer center to schoolchildren. I had the distinct privilege of being a systems operator on a Tektronix Cyber 73 (which was a derivative of the 6600) in the 1977-1979 timeframe (by which time the system was somewhat dated, but still incredibly powerful). It was an truly amazing machine. The machine had an array of toggle switches called the "Coldstart Panel" in one of the CPU bays into which a small (I think it was something like twelve twelve-bit words) PPU bootstrap program could be toggled in. The system could be booted from one of the "washing machine" drives, which was the usual mode of startup, or from magtape. There was a small pushbutton located just underneath the twin displays on the console, centered between the two screens that was the "coldstart" button that would trigger this boot program to be read by one of the PPU's, and boot up the system. At one time the drive with the bootpack on it failed catastrophically (headcrash, bigtime), and I had to once boot the system from magtape into a mini-OS that allowed the system to be mainbooted from an alternate drive with a backup bootpack mounted. Another interesting story relating to this type of console. There were huge power tubes in the console that made up the deflection amplifiers. I believe that these displays were electrostatically deflected. Anyway, I was sitting at the console at one time, doing the normal job of monitoring the various queues and CPU/PPU activity, and all of a sudden, the displays "compressed" into one thin, bright horizontal line. I reached for the brightness control, because I was afraid the line was so bright that it might burn the phosphor (which was a somewhat long-persistance phosphor to help minimize refresh "blink"), and all of the sudden, there was a loud POP and from an area just below the CRT's, (where the coldstart button was located), a shower of molten metal and sparks shot vigorously out of the console, right toward my face. Fortunately, the pop gave me a bit of a shock, and I reflexively pushed away from the console in my chair(which was on wheels), just quickly enough that I only got a couple of small balls of molten metal on my pant legs. The small balls of metal burned through the denim of the jeans, and made small burns on my legs. Through it all, the Cyber kept on running just fine. The fire suppression system detected the smoke from the failure, and went into alarm mode, which we cancelled (so the Halon wouldn't dump and the room powered down), and a breaker somewhere powered off the console. We monitored the system through a Tektronix 4023 terminal connected to a serial port on the one of the MODCOMP communications front-end machines, running a special program that allowed portions of what would be read on the displays to be seen on the raster scan terminal at a whopping 9600 baud. CDC came in and repaired the console (including replacement of some of those huge tubes), and we had the console back up and running within the same day. The Tektronix Cyber 73 machine had dual CPU's, something like 24 washing-machine sized multi-platter (I think that there were 8 to 10 platters in a pack), dual MODCOMP communications processors that did all of the serial I/O to interactive users on terminals all over the campus, a high-speed (standar IBM-compatible 80-column) punched card reader/punch, one 7-track magtape drive, and a couple of 9-track drives. It was maxed out on PPUs (I think it had 20), and maxed out on main memory (I believe, something like 256KW of 60-bit words), a high-speed chain-based line printer (1200LPM, IIRC). Lots of wonderful memories working at the Tektronix "Scientific Computer Center". Thanks for reading. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 07:59:06 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 08:59:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <200803080007.55185.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200803080007.55185.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Mar 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 07 March 2008 17:34, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Thinking back a homebrew computer ( with a change in the cpu card) was >>> in BYTE a 6800 or a 6502 machine. >> >> The 6800 and 6502 buses are indeed very similar, so this does not suprise >> me at all. >> >> I think the UK-designed Tangerine machine had a CPU card with overlapping >> 40 pin IC pads for either a 6800 or a 6502 (you had to change the monitor >> ROMs as well, of course). > > Which reminds me, does anybody else remember those machines that had multiple > CPUs in them? Or the option of plugging different ones in? Seems to me real > early on there were some mfrs trying to find as much compatibility as they > could with pursuing options like that. I remember one Taiwanese-made clone > of an Apple II that had a Z80 on the main board, and of course the c128 has > that similar setup (though the way the hardware was structured the z80 > effectively ran at something like 2.5MHz). I remember some other system > where you could literally plug in different processors for different uses, > but the brand name isn't coming to mind at the moment. That may be the Dimension 2000. I have one in my collection, along with the Z80 and 6502 CPU boards. Always wanted to find the rarer board that used a National Semi 32?? something to run an earlier version of Unix. -- From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sat Mar 8 09:37:18 2008 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:37:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Midwest Gaming Classic In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080308085355.07f8e4d0@mail.threedee.com> from "John Foust" at Mar 08, 2008 09:02:18 AM Message-ID: <200803081537.m28FbJDg026731@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >I think I'll spam for the Midwest Gaming Classic, as last year's event >had a significant classic computing component. I enclose the info >for this year's show at the end of this month, as well as the >description posted by a list member last year, and my last >post-show memories. > >- John Hi John, thanks. Yes, all the classic computing stuff is from my archive every year (so's all the pre-NES console material). I'm a co-organizer for the show, and I run the Museum area (huge hall). I post on here every year normally asking for people to come and display, but it always gets ignored. Maybe people think there's no room for retro-computing there because of the name of the show (its always been equally dedicated to classic computers, consoles, video-coin and pinball), or that there's to many kids (average age is late 20's through 40's). This year we will also have some of the Chicago Commodore show people coming to display as well as a Tandy CoCo related area. > >Midwest Gaming Classic > >When: >Saturday Mar 29, 2008 >at 10:00 AM > Actually, its that Saturday and Sunday (2 day show). 10-8 on Saturday, and 10-5 on Sunday. 20,000 square feet (every bit of it used), and usually pretty full of people (we had about 2400 in attendance over the 2 days last year). >Where:: >Olympia Resort and Conference Center >1350 Royale Mile Road >Oconomowoc, Wisconsin|50 53066 >United States And for those not familiar, this is just 45 minutes outside of Milwaukee. Its a major resort in the area, so anyone coming from out of town, its a great place for a family (or spouse). My wife is coming and using the spa all weekend (was just $10 for the entire room to use it last year). That's my payment for being able to do this for the whole weekend and her dealing with all my "stuff" monopolizing things things during that time (though she calls it something other than stuff). ;) Marty From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Mar 8 12:15:13 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:15:13 +0000 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D268C8.2050403@dunnington.plus.com> References: <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <200803062356.50664.rtellason@verizon.net> <47D1A58E.20903@axeside.co.uk> <47D268C8.2050403@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <47D2D7B1.20706@axeside.co.uk> Pete Turnbull, quoting me: >> When I was 13 (1980. Ouch!) I was given a PET for my birthday. A few >> years later I blew up an output buffer in one of the 6520s trying to >> use the Cassette 2 motor output as a controlled power supply. We >> connected one of those two-tone doobells that uses the back emf from >> the "ding" solenoid when you open the switch to sound the "dong". >> Said back emf killed the output buffer on that pin of the 6520. It >> managed to do so without any noticeable damage to the intervening >> circuitry, too! > > Common problem -- 6520s are fragile. For that reason, it was common, at > least here, to replace them with Motorola MC6821s, which was a later > version of the MC6820, which is just the same as the MCS6520. Lots of > the PETs at the college where I worked in the early 80s had Motorola > replacements because the 6821 seems to be more robust than the 6520. > > So replacing the missing or damaged 6520 with a Motorola MC6821, which > should be much easier to find, even has a degree of authenticity :-) Thanks for the tip. 6821 or 6820 goes on my mental wish list. Philip. From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 19:05:54 2008 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 17:05:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer History Museum Artifact Storage Open House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <827575.23544.qm@web35303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Richard, Yes - CDC 6400 for this console. You can click "All Sizes" above the photo to see a larger image that shows the name-plate on top of the console. Hard to see on the original page. Cheers, Lee C. --- Richard wrote: > Thanks for sharing these photos! > > Is this a CDC console? > > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft > available for download > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 9 03:49:25 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:49:25 -0800 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics References: <200803080837.m288b6Aj091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> <200803081539.57797.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47D3A495.D1367E30@cs.ubc.ca> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > There was one other company, though, and I still can't recall the name, > that tried unsuccessfully to market some system that would let you plug in > different CPU boards to run different software. I'm vaguely thinking of toy > company names, but somehow that doesn't quite seem right. Thinker Toys? (.. 30 years later I finally clue in the name was a play on 'tinker toys'.) > Time frame > would've been a little later than a bunch of this other stuff, maybe early > 1980s or so? From bear at typewritten.org Sun Mar 9 04:11:43 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 01:11:43 -0800 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2008, at 12:03 PM, Jason T wrote: > Well I finally got the IBM - mine is a 6151/115. Not sure what the > last digits signify. Original hard drive? I didn't think it's like > IBM to put the hard drive size on the faceplate like that. /115 refers to the processor variant. You need this doc: http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/Catalog/card-sa23-2609-0.html And probably this one as you mention it's running AIX: http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/Catalog/card-sc23-0816-0.html Specifically, chapter 1 and appendix C. The VRM Programming Guide doesn't seem to mention it, but I believe it's ctrl+alt+ins which gets you into the VRM itself, to format disks, define minidisks, etc. If nothing else this key combination is in the RT FAQ. ok bear From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Mar 9 04:33:15 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 09:33:15 +0000 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D2D7B1.20706@axeside.co.uk> References: <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <200803062356.50664.rtellason@verizon.net> <47D1A58E.20903@axeside.co.uk> <47D268C8.2050403@dunnington.plus.com> <47D2D7B1.20706@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <20080309093315.GB27819@usap.gov> On Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 06:15:13PM +0000, Philip Belben wrote: > Pete Turnbull: > >So replacing the missing or damaged 6520 with a Motorola MC6821, which > >should be much easier to find, even has a degree of authenticity :-) I have done this as well and not noticed any unusual behavior. Because there was a 6821 on every COMBOARD-I, I have a few in my parts box, but not many 6520s. It also works on the display board for an AIM-65, FWIW. > Thanks for the tip. 6821 or 6820 goes on my mental wish list. Try Unicorn Electronics - http://198.170.117.30/IC/6800.html - $3.49 each, but they do have a $20 minimum order. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Mar-2008 at 09:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -58.5 F (-50.3 C) Windchill -76.9 F (-60.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.6 kts Grid 41 Barometer 682.0 mb (10553 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Mar 9 04:34:53 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 04:34:53 -0500 Subject: Multiple CPUs (was 6502 CPU schematics) Message-ID: <01C8819F.0C8539E0@MSE_D03> -------Original Message: Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 14:09:17 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: 6502 CPU schematics > Which reminds me, does anybody else remember those machines that had > multiple CPUs in them? Or the option of plugging different ones in? Dimension 68000 was deliberately a multi-processor machine: 68000, 8088, 6502, Z80? and, of course, we hafta mention Dec Rainbow and Eagle machines with 8088 and Z80 Basis? (Apple ][ copy) had Z80 +6502 at one point, somebody at Apple estimated that 20% of all Apple]['s had Z80 softcards There were alternate processor cards for PC, including Z80, 6502, 68000, 80386, . . . ---------Reply: Don't forget Cromemco's DPU (68K & Z80), XPU (68010 & Z80) and XXU (68020 & Z80 on I/O proc.) m From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Mar 9 04:37:31 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 09:37:31 +0000 Subject: Multi-architecture CPU systems (was Re: 6502 CPU schematics) In-Reply-To: <200803081539.57797.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200803080837.m288b6Aj091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> <200803081539.57797.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080309093731.GC27819@usap.gov> On Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 03:39:57PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > There was one other company, though, and I still can't recall the name, > that tried unsuccessfully to market some system that would let you plug in > different CPU boards to run different software. I'm vaguely thinking of toy > company names, but somehow that doesn't quite seem right. Time frame > would've been a little later than a bunch of this other stuff, maybe early > 1980s or so? Ohio Scientific had the Challenger III with three CPUs - 6502, Z80, and 6800, IIRC. A family friend had one. It was lots of fun to go over and visit when he had that running. The factory was only a couple hours from my house, but besides that C3, I only knew of a couple of folks who bought their "Superboard". They always looked like neat machines, but not as popular as the big three (Commodore, Tandy, and Apple). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Mar-2008 at 09:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -58.5 F (-50.3 C) Windchill -76.9 F (-60.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.6 kts Grid 41 Barometer 682.0 mb (10553 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ats at offog.org Sun Mar 9 05:22:31 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:22:31 +0000 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: (Richard's message of "Sat\, 08 Mar 2008 21\:57\:39 -0700") References: Message-ID: Richard writes: > Does anyone know of a source for these kinds of round CRT tubes? There certainly used to be companies that would rebuild dead CRTs for collectors of old TVs -- earlytelevision.org mentions Clinton Electronics, the sci.electronics.repair FAQ suggests Hawk-Eye Picture Tube Mfg, and curtpalme.com do it for projector CRTs. It's expensive, but it used to be a common process back in the 1960s, so the techniques are well-understood. If you've got non-working examples of the sort of tube you need, perhaps it might be possible to have them rebuilt rather than trying to replace them outright. -- Adam Sampson From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Mar 9 05:28:02 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:28:02 +0000 Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205058482.854.0.camel@elric> On Sat, 2008-03-08 at 14:03 -0600, Jason T wrote: > All in all an interesting historical footnote machine. I booted it > and played Hunt the Wumpus on it last night, so I'm happy with it. :) >From the Linux Audio Developer list... http://bethewumpus.sourceforge.net Gordon From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 07:46:27 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 12:46:27 +0000 Subject: Up for grabs: DECDataSystem (model not known), Lincs UK Message-ID: Hi list, In Skegness, Lincs there is a company called Ramco who deal with selling off military surplus via sealed-bid auctions. I've bought from them before. The only thing to bear in mind is that every item has a reserve, so it's not the case that if you bid ?1 and no-one else bids, you win. Now, on the latest tender list ( http://www.ramco.co.uk/tender-main.php ) the following appears: 328 PDP-11 DEC DATA SYSTEM Unfortunately only some of the lots have a photo, and this one doesn't. Everything they sell is in "as-is" condition, but a friend of mine buys from them all the time and almost 100% of what he gets does work. All the electrical/electronic gear I've ever bought worked. Just a heads-up in case anyone wants to go check this out and/or buy it. Ed. From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Mar 9 08:39:07 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 07:39:07 -0600 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D3E87B.6040003@ubanproductions.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200803081853.47664.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> On Saturday 08 March 2008 18:35, Richard wrote: >>> Thanks for sharing these photos! >>> >>> Is this a CDC console? >>> >>> >> 065526114/> >> Yes, from a CDC 6x00 > > Does anyone have one of these in an operating condition? I rescued what was left of one of these. Here is a bit of a writeup: http://ubanproductions.com/ConsoleRescue/index.html The parts are still sitting in my basement. --tom From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 9 09:55:54 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 10:55:54 -0400 Subject: Group buy of 1541-III PCB's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01767c579765c0beaf4b830a8c3bbe5c@neurotica.com> On Mar 8, 2008, at 10:56 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Did anyone ever hear from the project owner or have boards made on >> his own? > > I've not had time to research this any more, my wife and I had our > third child in November. Since then I've had basically no free time > to deal with classic computer stuff. Woohoo, congrats on the new spawn! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Mar 9 11:54:44 2008 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 12:54:44 -0400 Subject: CoCo vs. C64 duke it out In-Reply-To: <47CCD856.5080403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47CCD72E.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <200803031846.m23Ikqsg017175@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080303204012.0127e180@mail.30below.com> <002f01c87d9d$d370c660$0100a8c0@pentium> <47CCC445.7010904@datanet.ab.ca> <47CCCFEA.4020809@jetnet.ab.ca> <47CCD338.8070807@jbrain.com> <47CCD72E.3070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080309123713.03960ad8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >woodelf wrote: > > A) Dma is cheating >>B) Well two tty's at 110 baud must be high speed multi-tasking :) >Come to think of it, both the COCO and the C64 had to bit bang serial >data. I know on the COCO a 300 baud modem was pushing the COCO. Don't blame the computer for something that's due to bad coding on the part of the programmer. ;-) Straight outta the ROM, one way, 9600 baud was *no* problem - I ran my Epson printer at that, and that made graphics "Fly." (for weird values of "Fly" but hey, it was one heckuva lot faster than 300/600 baud). I tried overclocking my serial->parallel converter & doing 19200, but the converter had issues... not the CoCo. You should see what they're doing *now* with the CoCo's bitbanged port! 115200 on a CoCo3 and 57600 on a non-overclocked CoCo1/2 for a product called "DriveWire." Head over to http://www.cloud9tech.com - I'm just a very satisfied customer. It's a tad slower (but not much so) than a standard floppy, but the ability of keeping your entire floppy (and emulated hard drive) library on a PC is wicked fun. A guy by the name of Roger Taylor of http://www.coco3.com fame has said that he's now gotten 115200 reliably on a CoCo2! His product (which should make lots of us oldsters happy, not just the CoCo fanbois ;-) is the Rainbow IDE (for Integrated Development Environment - not the hard drives) - it's a sweet environment for coding for any classic machine that can be run in M.E.S.S., speeding up development time by a few orders of magnitude. Write your code, click one button & the IDE assembles/compiles your code, formats a virtual floppy (or ROM), starts M.E.S.S. & mounts the floppy or ROM and in the immortal word of Emeril: "Bam!" Pair that with Drivewire to test your software on a real CoCo without having to format floppies... Schweet! Check out the "Jewelled" proggie for the CoCo3 he's writing... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 11:58:44 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 11:58:44 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730803090958p6394f3ccn192ac36261fdc07f@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 4:11 AM, r.stricklin wrote: > > You need this doc: > > http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/Catalog/card-sa23-2609-0.html > > And probably this one as you mention it's running AIX: > > http://www.typewritten.org/Articles/Catalog/card-sc23-0816-0.html I was supposed to get manuals (though probably not the latter one above) with the RT, but none have arrived. These will be a major help. Thanks! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 12:05:39 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:05:39 -0400 Subject: replacing "failed" components question: causal or coincidental repairs? Message-ID: <00a501c88207$cd5857c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I have been fixing an old WaveMate Bullet computer and have come across a question I thought maybe the CCTALK mailing list could answer. I apologize if this is an overly long post but it takes some explaining to get to the real question. When I bought this WMB machine it was completely dead. It had no response at all and the Z80 CPU was completely static except for the clock input on pin 6. I used my oscilloscope to debug the circuit. The PS checked out fine. On power up the floppy drive turned on and would seek to home but I think was more a "nervous reflex" of the MB8877/SY1793 FDC powering up and being selected rather than something the CPU was intentionally doing. No data was being read from the disk drive with a known good working boot disk installed. After finding some illegal voltage values on the address bus and some other fault isolation, I noticed that if I put my finger on the CPU, then it briefly went into a flurry of activity before crashing again. I isolated the illegal voltages on the address bus to just between two chips. After touching CPU with my finger caused something to happen, I suspected the CPU was bad or possibly a cold solder joint. As a starting move, I replaced the Z80 with a new socket and new CPU and made sure all the solder connections were good and thoroughly good. The good news is on the next power up the WMB booted and seemed to work just fine. However, I have two known good boot disks; the first is a partial CP/M 2.2 system (boot tracks plus minimal generic OS utilities from Gaby's site. It did not include any WMB specific tools like FORMAT) and the second is a complete CP/M 3.0 customized for the WMB. I know both boot disks are good since I have repaired another WMB and both disks work on that machine. Here is where things start to get strange... The CP/M 2.2 disk booted just fine. However, the known good CP/M 3.0 disks, even ones written using the boot drive (to eliminate alignment issues, etc) would "half boot" and crash just after printing some or all of the initial boot message. CPMLDR would execute but apparently CCP never got properly launched before crashing. So I spent a couple of days searching for what I presumed to be a hardware failure. The CPU seemed stuck in a polling loop and I could not find the "broken" part. I ended up finding some strange voltage values on the PIO and replaced it and a buffer chip but the strange boot behavior persisted. The CP/M 3.0 disk still refused to boot. I inspected the source for the CP/M 3.0 CBIOS and found what appeared to be possible places where it was hanging. Since I had already replaced the CPU with a socket and a new CPU I thought maybe the "new" CPU was having problems during the "enable interrupts" command immediately prior to the printing of the initial boot message. Sure enough, I replaced the "new" CPU with another one and the problem went away. The WMB now boots CP/M 2.2 and CP/M 3.0 from the boot disks like nothing was ever wrong. So to my actual question; how do I know that the CPU's were really bad and it is not something else being tweaked during the "fixing"? I can see one CPU failing and replacing it to fix the computer. However, finding TWO bad CPUs in a row is just highly suspicious to me. Maybe there is a sneaky cold solder joint someplace? I think repairing old computers is just like any human endeavor - it is flawed and sometimes I follow incorrect logic and/or misdiagnose before finding and fixing the real broken part. Sometimes good parts get mistakenly identified as bad. That's life and if a part falls under suspicion I am likely to just replace it just to test the theory, right or wrong it gives information and vital clues. Anything labeled "suspect" is pulled aside and labeled as bad regardless. These parts are cheap and plentiful enough that if a few good ones get trashed in the process of fixing an old machine I consider it a worthy investment. Probably I am tossing some good parts occasionally but it is worth it time wise to take the chance and maybe find the root cause. Were I more skilled technician maybe I could fault isolate with more precision and just fix exactly what is broken but this is just a hobby and I do not have the time/experience to get more precise. What is bugging me in this case though is whether swapping the two CPUs is actually fixing the REAL problem or just coincidentally doing *something* which is the making it work but not actually fixing the underlying problem. I am uncertain if my "repairs" are actually causal or coincidental. The good news is in the end if the machine works reliably it doesn't matter all that much but I'd sure like to know for certain what actually happened. Is there some method to verify a Z80 CPU or PIO is actually bad or not? I have seen 74LSxxx chip testers which apparently work pretty well but nothing that can test a Z80 CPU or other LSI type chip. Thanks in advance for any advice or constructive comments. Andrew Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 9 12:10:57 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:10:57 -0400 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Jason T wrote: > I'd be happy to trade it for just about anything - help getting a copy > of the O/S for this machine would be ideal. What RT OS are you looking for? They ran BSD, AOS, and I think a flavor of AIX. I'm pretty sure I have at least the first two. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 12:20:26 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 12:20:26 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730803091020p2197fc15k506aa06e1d274380@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > What RT OS are you looking for? They ran BSD, AOS, and I think a > flavor of AIX. I'm pretty sure I have at least the first two. Anything it ran natively/supported by IBM. It's got AIX 2.x on there now, and I'd like to be able to do a fresh install of it someday. I know zero about AOS, but I'm sure that would be interesting as well. Was BSD a hobbyist project for the RT, or was that native also? From steve at radiorobots.com Sun Mar 9 13:57:08 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:57:08 -0400 Subject: Original Chipcom Stuff Message-ID: <47D43304.3070603@radiorobots.com> Trying to re-create, at least on paper, a system I used in the early '90s. Looking for docs for Chipcom ONline concentrator and NCS. Anyone got? Thanks, Steve From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 9 15:17:21 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <47D3A495.D1367E30@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200803080837.m288b6Aj091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> <200803081539.57797.rtellason@verizon.net> <47D3A495.D1367E30@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20080309131106.M67479@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Mar 2008, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > company names, but somehow that doesn't quite seem right. > Thinker Toys? > (.. 30 years later I finally clue in the name was a play on 'tinker toys'.) They changed their name to Morrow Designs. George Morrow (R.I.P.) was a clever fellow; see the book of his quotations (Sellam got his heirs to release rights). His chief engineer Howard Fullmer (also R.I.P.) was heavy into S100, Z80, and then 8088. The Morrow lunchbox was a nice attempt. Morrow licensed its design to Zenith. When the IRS wanted to place a BIG order, Zenith and Morrow were in competition. The IRS waited until Zenith no longer had to pay royalties, and Morrow Designs went belly up. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 9 15:21:32 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multiple CPUs (was 6502 CPU schematics) In-Reply-To: <01C8819F.0C8539E0@MSE_D03> References: <01C8819F.0C8539E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20080309131819.W67479@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Mar 2008, M H Stein wrote: > Don't forget Cromemco's DPU (68K & Z80), XPU (68010 & Z80) and > XXU (68020 & Z80 on I/O proc.) Tandy also had a Z80/68000 machine, model 12? A friend of a friend did computer Graphics software. He was SO proud of his new Cromemco, and SO offended by being told that Radio Shack had a machine with similar specs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 9 15:42:21 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: replacing "failed" components question: causal or coincidental repairs? In-Reply-To: <00a501c88207$cd5857c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <00a501c88207$cd5857c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <20080309133926.P67479@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Mar 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > I think repairing old computers is just like any human endeavor - it is > flawed and sometimes I follow incorrect logic and/or misdiagnose before > finding and fixing the real broken part. Sometimes good parts get > mistakenly identified as bad. That's life and if a part falls under > suspicion I am likely to just replace it just to test the theory, right or > wrong it gives information and vital clues. Anything labeled "suspect" is > pulled aside and labeled as bad regardless. > These parts are cheap and plentiful enough that if a few good ones get > trashed in the process of fixing an old machine I consider it a worthy > investment. Probably I am tossing some good parts occasionally but it is > worth it time wise to take the chance and maybe find the root cause. Were I > more skilled technician maybe I could fault isolate with more precision and > just fix exactly what is broken but this is just a hobby and I do not have > the time/experience to get more precise. Never discard the old parts, nor charge the customer, until the actual defect is found. Any reason to NOT plug the suspect Z80 back in and see whether the problems follow the chip v coming and going from other "random" acts? From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 9 16:23:24 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:23:24 -0600 Subject: Brother IF-50? Message-ID: <47D4554C.8080809@brutman.com> I have one of these things in the basement. It looks like it has a parallel port (Centronics) and a serial port on it. It also has 'COPY' and 'SEL' membrane style buttons on front, and a what looks like a really weird connector with 10 pins arranged in a 'star like' configuration on the end of a cable that is directly attached. From my searching I'm guessing this is a parallel to serial (or vice-versa) converter marketed by Brother for it's printers. Does anybody have more details? Pictures are up on eBay at the moment - there is a recent auction. Item number is 360028045061 . Thanks, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 9 16:25:56 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:25:56 -0700 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: <200803090917.m299HeEV006401@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803090917.m299HeEV006401@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47D3F374.5987.1AA79427@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:50:10 -0800 > From: davis > An apocryphal story I heard was that the graphics on the display are > disk/?drum refreshed. If true, I assume you would need the better part of > a CDC 6x00 to get anything out of it. Aprocryphal, indeed--and completely without basis in reality. The 6602/6612 display was directly driven by a single 4Kword PPU with no automatic refresh. If you generated a complex display, it tended to flicker, as the PPU couldn't refresh in time. This also explains why the graphics mode wasn't used more--it simply took too much time to generate anything other than a simple display. I speak as a writer of a DSD overlay or two. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 16:43:56 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 17:43:56 -0400 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803091020p2197fc15k506aa06e1d274380@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730803091020p2197fc15k506aa06e1d274380@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D45A1C.4000209@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> What RT OS are you looking for? They ran BSD, AOS, and I think a >> flavor of AIX. I'm pretty sure I have at least the first two. > > Anything it ran natively/supported by IBM. It's got AIX 2.x on there > now, and I'd like to be able to do a fresh install of it someday. I > know zero about AOS, but I'm sure that would be interesting as well. > Was BSD a hobbyist project for the RT, or was that native also? Both AOS and 4.4BSD are BSD of some kind. AOS was IBM's own flavor of BSD. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 9 17:17:51 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:17:51 -0700 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: <200803090917.m299HeEV006401@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803090917.m299HeEV006401@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47D3FF9F.27043.1AD71DB9@cclist.sydex.com> > From: "Rick Bensene" > There was dedicated hardware in the display console that did CDC > character set (a 6-bit code) conversion to vector characters. Vector > graphics were possible, within the limitations of the speed of the PPU. > On later 6x00-series systems, such as the CYBER-73, the PPUs ran fast > enough to generate a nice looking all-vector chessboard on the left > screen, and a text-based transcript of the moves on the right screen. > There were also a number of other cute programs, one being a pair of eyes > (one on each screen) which would look around and blink. I think you probably mean the CYBER 173 PPU--the CYBER 7x PPUs were essentially unchanged from the 6x00 series. 1 usec. cycle time. The character generator, IIRC, was an interesting array of LRC circuits, with the character size varied by simply increasing the amplitude of the drive waveform. This led to odd-shaped large characters. Chess was an oddball program. It was possible for a user program to request control of the display from the operator. There were two ways to do this. The first was to write your own display driver and request the display channel from DSD (DSD monitored R.RCH and R.DCH requests). An early version of chess I saw used a driver called (I think) CHD for this. There was also what was called the "T" display in DSD. This was a display mode that allowed a user-mode CP program provide a list of display directions in CM to be read by DSD. One of the directions was "jump", so the user program could allow DSD to regenerate the display without having to made additional system requests (which would have been too slow). I saw a later version of CHESS that used this method. The restriction on the T display was that it could generate a display for one screen or the other, but not both simultaneously. There was a very popular "programmer's display" driver called DIS that could attach to a control point and allow for job control entry, exchange package display, and numerous dump formats as well as a disassembler and CP breakpoint. There was a keypunch simulator called O26 (note the alpha "o") to allow the enterprising operator or programmer to generate a file of card images. A very expensive keypunch, indeed. > The operating > system was called KRONOS, and I clearly remember that > the console command > to run the "eye" program was "X.EYES". > Some > privileged users could > remotely fire off this EYES program from a > terminal, and it'd make for a bit of a surprise, especially when we > gave tours of the computer center to schoolchildren. KRONOS was a direct descendent of MACE, an alternative OS for the 6x00 written largely by Dave Callender and Greg Mansfield as a bootleg project at Arden Hills. Greg and Dave would visit the QA floor and cable together a system to do development on late at night, after the daytime shift had gone home. (MACE, if I remember correctly, stood for "Mansfield's answer to Customer Engineering". The "eye" display was part of every CE's deadstart (not "coldstart") tape. The "official" OS for the 6000 series was SCOPE--a system that was located largely in the PPUs, and pretty much oriented toward batch processing. Pat might want to investigate Dave and Greg's contribution to the OS that Purdue ran on their 6500 in the late 60's. I seem to recall that it was largely MACE with a lot of OS functionality moved into the CPMTR portion. A cultural war broke out in CDC over the two systems. SCOPE was pretty much a west coast Sunnyvale operation and KRONOS (i.e. enhanced MACE) an Arden Hills affair. Things really got pitched when PLATO elected to use KRONOS instead of SCOPE. The solution was to offer both as renamed entities. SCOPE 3.4 was followed by NOS/BE 1.0 (BE for batch environment) and KRONOS became NOS 1.0. A lousy move on the part of management, in my opinion and a huge duplication of resources. I have no particular ax to grind here, as I was Sunnyvale Ops, but Greg was a good friend, too. This doesn't include the "special" operating systems such as TCM, Zodiac, Rover, etc. One very positive thing that I can say about MACE was that Dave authored a set of fairly straightforward coding standards and adhered to them. So MACE systems code was easy to read; SCOPE was an agglutinative affiar with no particular coding standard being used anywhere. > I had the distinct privilege of being a systems operator on a Tektronix > Cyber 73 (which was a derivative of the 6600). The 73 was basically a 6400 with added goo, such as the Compare/Move Unit; the 74 was basically a 6600 (wherein a CMU was not possible). There was a Cyber 72, which was a slowed-down (via jumper) 6400. The Cyber 76 was the follow-on to the 7600. This is from recollection, but I'm pretty sure that I'm very close. The Cyber 7x's had the fake wood-and-blue-glass look, while the 6000 series was dark grey and beige-ish. > The machine had an array of toggle switches called the "Coldstart Panel" > in one of the CPU bays into which a small (I think it was something like > twelve twelve-bit words) PPU bootstrap program could be toggled in. The > system could be booted from one of the "washing machine" drives, which was > the usual mode of startup, or from magtape. You had an unusual shop. At Sunnyvale, deadstart was almost always from tape. The disk drives could be anything from the old 6603 Bryant disk, to a big 808 (4-spindle hydraulic positioner, bit- parallel drive) to one of the "little" 844 removable pack drives. I know--more than anyone asked for. But questions about old iron are getting less frequent. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 9 17:21:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:21:20 -0700 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: <200803091800.m29I0PgF015356@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803091800.m29I0PgF015356@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47D40070.25282.1ADA4DDB@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:22:31 +0000 > Does anyone know of a source for these kinds of round CRT tubes? I seem to remember that CDC got theirs from a German supplier. Cheers, Chuck From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sun Mar 9 17:25:47 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 18:25:47 -0400 Subject: Brother IF-50? Message-ID: <8CA504BA8076EBA-1540-365B@webmail-ne20.sysops.aol.com> The Brother IF-50 is a parallel interface and buffer, designed to turn certain Brother daisywheel typewriters such as the Correctronic 60 (CE-60) into printers. The interface draws power from the typewriter via the round, right-angle connector. The connector on the typewriter is typically found inside the cord-storage compartment on the back of the typewriter. The "Copy" button could be used to repeatedly print data that was sent to the typewriter. So, if you were using the typewriter to print return addresses on an envelope for example, you would hit the copy button, and print your information from the computer. Then you would press the Copy button again, and the information would be held in the buffer. Then, every time you hit the Copy button after that, it would send whatever was in the buffer to the typewriter. It's was a cool gadget to have, since it was fairly inexpensive, and you didn't have to have another bulky device sitting on your desk. Brother worked the idea from both angles; for example, the HR15 daisywheel printer also had a connector on it for an external (proprietary) keyboard. I couldn't tell you if Brother had subsequently released any typewriters that already had the printer port built in. I hope this helped. . . T From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 9 17:39:36 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 16:39:36 -0600 Subject: Brother IF-50? In-Reply-To: <8CA504BA8076EBA-1540-365B@webmail-ne20.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA504BA8076EBA-1540-365B@webmail-ne20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <47D46728.1090406@brutman.com> Ah! Very helpful! I have one. It was in a pile of other things. I have no possible use for it. If somebody would like it for something other than salvage, please drop me an email on the side. Mike From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Mar 9 17:35:35 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:35:35 +0000 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1205102135.5985.4.camel@elric> On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 08:10 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > is there a good auction site that treats people properly? > if not, sounds like a great business opportunity. At the risk of sounding like Top Gear, "How hard can it be?" What about - a simple (*SIMPLE*) auction site, exclusively using something like Google Checkout for paying (get rid of the Paypal bollocks) with a means to flag something as a cash payment. The main thing, as I say, is keeping it simple. Gordon From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 9 17:41:46 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 22:41:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <1205058482.854.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Is that game for Mac/linux? The only reason I say that is because once downloaded you have to "make" it, which is something we don't do on windows (to my knowledge, anyway). If anyone is interested I have the BASIC code listings for (hunting the) Wumpus 1 & 2 in the book BASIC Computer Games Vol. 2: TRS-80 Edition, from 1980. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Gordon JC Pearce wrote: On Sat, 2008-03-08 at 14:03 -0600, Jason T wrote: > All in all an interesting historical footnote machine. I booted it > and played Hunt the Wumpus on it last night, so I'm happy with it. :) >From the Linux Audio Developer list... http://bethewumpus.sourceforge.net Gordon From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 17:54:58 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 17:54:58 -0500 Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1205058482.854.0.camel@elric> <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730803091554g4cfa5f69v8553a6646c2408b3@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Is that game for Mac/linux? The only reason I say that is because once downloaded you have to "make" it, which is something we don't do on windows (to my knowledge, anyway). Looks like Linux only. The author's page says it was inspired by a similar Windows game "In the Pit:" http://www.studiohunty.com/itp/ I'd like to give it a try once I find an XBox360 controller. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Mar 9 17:58:57 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 17:58:57 -0500 Subject: Brother IF-50? In-Reply-To: <47D4554C.8080809@brutman.com> References: <47D4554C.8080809@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200803091858.57665.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 09 March 2008 17:23, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I have one of these things in the basement. It looks like it has a > parallel port (Centronics) and a serial port on it. It also has 'COPY' > and 'SEL' membrane style buttons on front, and a what looks like a > really weird connector with 10 pins arranged in a 'star like' > configuration on the end of a cable that is directly attached. > > From my searching I'm guessing this is a parallel to serial (or > vice-versa) converter marketed by Brother for it's printers. Does > anybody have more details? > > Pictures are up on eBay at the moment - there is a recent auction. Item > number is 360028045061 . This reminds me of some years ago, a guy brought me a couple of similar interfaces, though neither one was this number. They were interesting in that each one had an 8085 CPU and some other LSI stuff in it, I don't recall what else and don't know if I still have them someplace or not (doubtful). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Mar 9 18:10:57 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 23:10:57 +0000 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <200803080837.m288b6Ar091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803080837.m288b6Ar091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: From: Jim Leonard > Roger Holmes wrote: > >> point, such as storing angles as a fraction of a circle, so that >> if you >> add/subtract two angles together you don't have to do mod 360 or >> 2Pi as >> it automatically overflows and gives you the correct answer. Not so >> > > Wouldn't that imply that your system works off of a basis of 256 > degrees > instead of 360? > In this case, 1/262144 of a circle as it was on an 18 bit computer, but today you would probably use 32 bits. There's nothing special about dividing a circle into 360 parts anyway, 420 would have allowed division by all numbers up to 7, 840 up to 8, 2520 up to 10, 27720 up to 12 etc but 360 has no great benefit until we started dividing the day into 24 hours, which is also arbitrary. Roger Holmes. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 18:24:17 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 18:24:17 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <47D3B0A4.9060107@axeside.co.uk> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> <47D3B0A4.9060107@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <51ea77730803091624u7eb796a1l7ad0315e12eb0eca@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 4:40 AM, Philip Belben wrote > number for the mouse (somewhere). I phoned IBM to see if I could order > one, and they said it was discontinued, and the replacement (I suspect a > PS/2 mouse with an adaptor) would be 150 pounds. They woudln't tell me > the part number of the replacement, or of the adaptor, so I gave up at > that point. Ha! Well, please forward on that mouse part# if you find it. Who knows, one could turn up. I like how the keyboard and mouse ports are keyed with huge, shaped cowls, like a child's toy. No way to mix them up > Isn't there a 7 segment LED on the front for POST display? Don't think > it tells you the RAM, though. Best way to assess RAM is count the > chips, I'd think :-) There is. I just found a nice page of FAQs on the RT, so I suspect I'll be deciphering them soon. > I would think floppy. Floppy drives and stuff were very PC-ish on the 6150. I'm not at home now, but I was able to check my inventory of my storage unit and the tape drives I have are model 6157. I had always thought they were for either a PC or a System/34 type machine, but the RT FAQ shows one attached to a 6150: http://www.damage.fi/slas/rt/rtpics.html Hooray! Assuming the controller is indeed for tape, a drive I got for free I don't know how many years ago (and tried a few times to sell) now has a master. What will I do with it? Who knows, but at least it has a reason to live (assuming it hasn't committed gooey-roller suicide yet.) From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 9 19:41:56 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 19:41:56 -0500 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: <1205102135.5985.4.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200803092340.m29NdwER099173@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:35:35 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 08:10 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> is there a good auction site that treats people properly? >> if not, sounds like a great business opportunity. >At the risk of sounding like Top Gear, "How hard can it be?" >What about - a simple (*SIMPLE*) auction site, exclusively using >something like Google Checkout for paying (get rid of the Paypal >bollocks) with a means to flag something as a cash payment. History has shown that you will have alot of legal costs keeping it online. There are a bunch of Software patents currently owned by others. Mant of which will come out of the bushes with a smile as they slips one hand into your pocket, while others will be waveing C&D orders that will need to be fought. Sad but true...... Bob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 18:44:01 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 16:44:01 -0700 Subject: Brother IF-50? In-Reply-To: <47D4554C.8080809@brutman.com> References: <47D4554C.8080809@brutman.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:23:24 -0600 > From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Brother IF-50? > > > I have one of these things in the basement. It looks like it has a > parallel port (Centronics) and a serial port on it. It also has 'COPY' > and 'SEL' membrane style buttons on front, and a what looks like a > really weird connector with 10 pins arranged in a 'star like' > configuration on the end of a cable that is directly attached. > > From my searching I'm guessing this is a parallel to serial (or > vice-versa) converter marketed by Brother for it's printers. Does > anybody have more details? > > Pictures are up on eBay at the moment - there is a recent auction. Item > number is 360028045061 . > > > Thanks, > Mike > > Hi Mike I think this is a buffer. I suspect that both connectors are inputs. The printers had a connector that could be used by a keyboard or in this case, this buffer. The printer, I still have, has just such a connector. This most likely allowed one to repeat printouts of the same page or pages. The select button most likely selects between serial and parallel inputs. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Mar 9 18:50:20 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 19:50:20 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? Message-ID: <32266F1E-4FAF-4E97-A468-D853345055CA@xlisper.com> I have an Atari 800xl and a couple of 1050 disk drives. I also have two copies of the M.U.L.E. game on disk. Unfortunately, I can't get either to boot on the 800xl. I suspect that these are older games that were written for the 400/800 and may need the "translator disk" that allowed the 800xl to run games written for the older machines. Does anyone know where I could obtain a copy of this translator disk? Thanks! David Betz From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 9 19:56:15 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 19:56:15 -0500 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200803092354.m29NsH1g000637@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 23:10:57 +0000, Roger Holmes wrote: >> Wouldn't that imply that your system works off of a basis of 256 >> degrees >> instead of 360? >> >In this case, 1/262144 of a circle as it was on an 18 bit computer, >but today you would probably use 32 bits. There's nothing special >about dividing a circle into 360 parts anyway, 420 would have allowed 2PI are Round! There are 2Pi radians in a circle, very few in the graphics world use interger degrees for anything other than human readable or heman generated I/O. A line is bounded by 2 points or can be described as a angle and distance from a relitave point. While Arc's can be specified by a start, end, and center point, Curves are almost always specified in radians. Autodesk had an interesting bulge value. In the graphics world 2 pi are round and can represent an infinate number of angles, and truely not square :) Bob From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Mar 9 19:02:41 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:02:41 +0000 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: <200803092340.m29NdwER099173@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200803092340.m29NdwER099173@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1205107361.8715.0.camel@elric> On Sun, 2008-03-09 at 19:41 -0500, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:35:35 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 08:10 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > >> is there a good auction site that treats people properly? > >> if not, sounds like a great business opportunity. > > >At the risk of sounding like Top Gear, "How hard can it be?" > > >What about - a simple (*SIMPLE*) auction site, exclusively using > >something like Google Checkout for paying (get rid of the Paypal > >bollocks) with a means to flag something as a cash payment. > > History has shown that you will have alot of legal costs keeping it online. > There are a bunch of Software patents currently owned by others. Mant of which will > come out of the bushes with a smile as they slips one hand into your pocket, > while others will be waveing C&D orders that will need to be fought. Software patents don't exist. Gordon From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 19:14:14 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 20:14:14 -0400 Subject: replacing failed components question causal or coincidental repairs Message-ID: <002001c88243$acbe9510$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> On Sun, 9 Mar 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > I think repairing old computers is just like any human endeavor - it is > flawed and sometimes I follow incorrect logic and/or misdiagnose before > finding and fixing the real broken part. Sometimes good parts get > mistakenly identified as bad. That's life and if a part falls under > suspicion I am likely to just replace it just to test the theory, right or > wrong it gives information and vital clues. Anything labeled "suspect" is > pulled aside and labeled as bad regardless. > These parts are cheap and plentiful enough that if a few good ones get > trashed in the process of fixing an old machine I consider it a worthy > investment. Probably I am tossing some good parts occasionally but it is > worth it time wise to take the chance and maybe find the root cause. Were I > more skilled technician maybe I could fault isolate with more precision and > just fix exactly what is broken but this is just a hobby and I do not have > the time/experience to get more precise. Never discard the old parts, nor charge the customer, until the actual defect is found. Any reason to NOT plug the suspect Z80 back in and see whether the problems follow the chip v coming and going from other "random" acts? -----REPLY----- Hi Fred, Yes, I agree. I always "tag and bag" discarded parts from vintage computers I repair. "Tossing" was a poor choice of words. It means tossing them into the box of tagged baggies of suspect/broken parts. Since I am the owner I don't need to worry about charging anyone but I agree with the sentiment. Especially if this were a business I would not feel comfortable releasing the system unless I had firm evidence of root cause and not some coincidental fix. However, that is the dilemma. How to establish what exactly is the root cause without endangering the original piece of equipment? I would like some independent verification if possible. Everytime you touch or make a repair to an old computer there is a risk of unintended damage. Yes, I could swap the questionable components back into the system but I am very reluctant to "screw around with it" once it is working. I dislike using the restored piece as test equipment. Generally speaking, once it works reliably, I leave it alone until there is reason to attempt more repairs. I have found it is very easy to accidentally break things. That is why I rarely ever clean the boards or do anything to them other than the bare minimum to make them work again. One concern about swapping possible bad parts into a working system is that they could induce another failure and start the repair cycle all over again. What would be ideal is some sort of test equipment I could plug a bad part into and check to see if it is good or not. I can do that with EPROMs and apparently there are TTL chip testers like the TOP2049 which provide 74LSxxx testing. How do you test a LSI component like a Z80 CPU, PIO, DMA, or DART? Short of plugging it back in and hoping it doesn't cause more problems. I am an engineer by education and practice but self taught as a technician. Sometimes I wish I had more experience in these matters or at least took some coursework on how to diagnose and repair equipment. Thanks for your advice! Andrew Lynch From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Mar 9 19:22:10 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 17:22:10 -0700 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: <1205107361.8715.0.camel@elric> References: <200803092340.m29NdwER099173@keith.ezwind.net> <1205107361.8715.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <47D47F32.4060107@mainecoon.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Software patents don't exist. Right. What to OP probably intended to say was "process and business method patents related to software", which sadly do exist. See, for example, 6,604,107. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Mar 9 20:02:54 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 18:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prepare to chuckle... Message-ID: http://www.vintage.org/blog.php?action=read&pid=22 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 9 20:34:56 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 18:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Mar 9, 8 06:02:54 pm" Message-ID: <200803100134.m2A1YuDj017474@floodgap.com> > http://www.vintage.org/blog.php?action=read&pid=22 But it arrived anyway! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Silly is a state of mind, stupid is a way of life. -- Dave Butler ---------- From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 9 21:44:48 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 21:44:48 -0500 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: <1205107361.8715.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200803100142.m2A1goss009973@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:02:41 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Software patents don't exist. >Gordon Here is a link to a few online auction related patents that could not exsist if you were correct. I agree they should not exsist but they do .... And there are low life lawyers enforceing them. Got an extra few thousand dollard to test them with ? http://tinyurl.com/34phjj Bob From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 9 22:07:41 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 19:07:41 -0800 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:02 PM -0700 3/9/08, Sellam Ismail wrote: >http://www.vintage.org/blog.php?action=read&pid=22 That is a riot. BTW, if you think that display sucks, haven't you ever seen a Kaypro 2000? It looks like the //c LCD display might be slightly better! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 21:09:56 2008 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 02:09:56 +0000 Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803091554g4cfa5f69v8553a6646c2408b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205058482.854.0.camel@elric> <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <51ea77730803091554g4cfa5f69v8553a6646c2408b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640803091909w63f4a1e5oa05e5b563e964bf7@mail.gmail.com> On 09/03/2008, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > Is that game for Mac/linux? The only reason I say that is because once downloaded you have to "make" it, which is something we don't do on windows (to my knowledge, anyway). > > > Looks like Linux only. The author's page says it was inspired by a > similar Windows game "In the Pit:" > > http://www.studiohunty.com/itp/ > > I'd like to give it a try once I find an XBox360 controller. > You can play it online here : http://www.ifiction.org/games/play.php?game=249&mode=html Don't know how close it is to the original though. Dan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 9 21:20:53 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 20:20:53 -0600 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: <200803100134.m2A1YuDj017474@floodgap.com> References: <200803100134.m2A1YuDj017474@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <47D49B05.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> http://www.vintage.org/blog.php?action=read&pid=22 > > But it arrived anyway! So what is on the tape? From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 21:40:58 2008 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 02:40:58 +0000 Subject: Old books from WHSmith Message-ID: <26c11a640803091940u822ed70t6c4b51ac0263297b@mail.gmail.com> I was searching for a 480z game on google when I got a result from Whsmith (A book shop/Stationers over here in England). It still has a couple of books for sale from 1985. So I started looking further it's got a few C64 books, I then tried Vax. I hit the jackpot they have quite a few books, they are a bit pricy and I wonder if they are still in stock. When did WHSmith ever sell books like : User Guide to Stepper Motor Control on the Hvl Vax 11/730 priced at only 5 pounds Vax/Vms Internals and Data Structures Version 5.2 priced at only 155 pounds Have a look for yourself there might be some more gems on there. http://www.whsmith.co.uk/CatalogAndSearch/SearchWithinCategory.aspx?gq=vax&cat=%5cBooks&rst=1 Dan From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Mar 9 23:00:23 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:00:23 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? In-Reply-To: <32266F1E-4FAF-4E97-A468-D853345055CA@xlisper.com> References: <32266F1E-4FAF-4E97-A468-D853345055CA@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <47D4B257.3080600@atarimuseum.com> David do you have an SIO2PC interface??? If so, I can send you a Translator disk image and you can transfer it to a diskette on your XL system. Curt David Betz wrote: > I have an Atari 800xl and a couple of 1050 disk drives. I also have > two copies of the M.U.L.E. game on disk. Unfortunately, I can't get > either to boot on the 800xl. I suspect that these are older games that > were written for the 400/800 and may need the "translator disk" that > allowed the 800xl to run games written for the older machines. Does > anyone know where I could obtain a copy of this translator disk? > > Thanks! > David Betz > From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Mar 9 04:40:52 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:40:52 +0000 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D3B0A4.9060107@axeside.co.uk> Jason T wrote: > Well I finally got the IBM - mine is a 6151/115. Not sure what the > last digits signify. Original hard drive? I didn't think it's like > IBM to put the hard drive size on the faceplate like that. Well done! I have the floor standing one, the 6150. As someone said, 115 is a model number. It tells you a lot, if you can look it up, but I don't have much 6150 documentation, so I don't think I can. > Keyboard connector - definitely odd. Fortunately the 'board itself is > a regular Model M, which made replacing the keys damaged in shipping > easy. Unfortunately the cable is not modular on the keyboard end, so > I'll have to make sure to keep it out of range of the cats :) > > The mouse looks like a strange connector, too. Unfortunately I got no > mouse with the system :( I seem to recall that the 6150 had ribon-header style connectors for practically everything, in a little metal shell, and the whole thing in a rubber moulding that keyed with the appropriate hole in the back panel. The mouse port seems to be serial at RS232 levels. I have the IBM part number for the mouse (somewhere). I phoned IBM to see if I could order one, and they said it was discontinued, and the replacement (I suspect a PS/2 mouse with an adaptor) would be 150 pounds. They woudln't tell me the part number of the replacement, or of the adaptor, so I gave up at that point. Interesting that you got a standard keyboard. Mine has the standard layout, but slightly different key profile and different colours. > Don't know how much RAM I've got. How can I tell? The system doesn't > turn the display on until AIX is booting, so if there's a POST screen > I can't see it. Isn't there a 7 segment LED on the front for POST display? Don't think it tells you the RAM, though. Best way to assess RAM is count the chips, I'd think :-) > As everyone noted, it is *heavy*! I'm used to heavy workstations from > the mid-80s (Sun 3, SGI and the like) but this one tops the list, at > least in my collection. > > There is what looks like the standard IBM 37-pin external floppy > connector on one of the cards. Is that what it is? Or maybe for a > tape drive? If it's the latter I may even have a drive for it... I would think floppy. Floppy drives and stuff were very PC-ish on the 6150. > All in all an interesting historical footnote machine. I booted it > and played Hunt the Wumpus on it last night, so I'm happy with it. :) I think all I ever managed to do with mine, apart from replace blown diodes in the power supply, was run XINIT and do a screen dump to my Proprinter XL. Amazingly, the Proprinter is one of the printers supported with PIOBE. (PIOBE = Printer I/O Backend. IBM's solution to having a common printer interface.) Philip. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 13:01:15 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <20080308134207.Q25753@shell.lmi.net> References: <200803080837.m288b6Aj091921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47D24FF6.2949.1477DE25@cclist.sydex.com> <20080308134207.Q25753@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Mar 2008, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Which reminds me, does anybody else remember those machines that had >> multiple CPUs in them? Or the option of plugging different ones in? > > Dimension 68000 was deliberately a multi-processor machine: 68000, 8088, > 6502, Z80? Ack. Where did I get Dimension 2000 from? Anyway, yes, same box. -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 9 13:50:55 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:50:55 -0400 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics Message-ID: <0JXH00KS08CVILC3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 6502 CPU schematics > From: Brent Hilpert > Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:49:25 -0800 > To: General at priv-edtnaa06.telusplanet.net, > "Discussion at priv-edtnaa06.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >"Roy J. Tellason" wrote: >> >> There was one other company, though, and I still can't recall the name, >> that tried unsuccessfully to market some system that would let you plug in >> different CPU boards to run different software. I'm vaguely thinking of toy >> company names, but somehow that doesn't quite seem right. > >Thinker Toys? Digital Group. Cromemco Compupro (8085/8088, Z80, 68000, and x86 later versions). There were more than a few that were not exclusively one cpu. If anything S100 was the most diverse for CPUs other than 8080/8085/z80/8088/86/68000! Allison >(.. 30 years later I finally clue in the name was a play on 'tinker toys'.) > >> Time frame >> would've been a little later than a bunch of this other stuff, maybe early >> 1980s or so? From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 19:50:23 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 20:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803091020p2197fc15k506aa06e1d274380@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730803091020p2197fc15k506aa06e1d274380@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Mar 2008, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> What RT OS are you looking for? They ran BSD, AOS, and I think a >> flavor of AIX. I'm pretty sure I have at least the first two. > > Anything it ran natively/supported by IBM. It's got AIX 2.x on there > now, and I'd like to be able to do a fresh install of it someday. I > know zero about AOS, but I'm sure that would be interesting as well. > Was BSD a hobbyist project for the RT, or was that native also? AOS _was_ BSD 4.3. There is also a mostly-complete port of BSD 4.4 floating about, but it was a skunkworks project and not underwritten by IBM. -- From ed at ed-thelen.org Sun Mar 9 22:12:42 2008 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 20:12:42 -0700 Subject: CDC console References: <200803091801.m29I133k015402@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <048601c8825c$9b107bd0$0200a8c0@TIGERTV> > Message: 20 > Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 21:18:32 -0800 > From: "Rick Bensene" rickb at bensene.com ... > Message-ID: B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB4615D8AB at mail.bensene.com > > The displays on the console were driven by a PPU (Peripheral Processing > Unit), which were small scalar processors (actually, one processor > multiplexed to appear as a number of independent CPUs), akin to small > minicomputers (like a PDP-8), which operated out of shared sections of > main memory. There was a PPU program that ran the display, generating > it from data in a section of memory. In SCOPE, PP # 10 was dedicated to this purpose - Each time shared PP (using a common adder) had its own memory of 4 K 12 bit words. This reduced the traffic to main memory. PP # 1 was normally assigned to monitor requests from the jobs assigned to "control points". A job would place a request in its relative memory location 0 for service by the system. PP # 1 would monitor these requests and assign other PPs to do the work, causing a PP to load a new program if necessary. I worked in CDC Special Systems from 1966 to 1971 - We shipped a version of SCOPE modified to run "Time Critical" which used modified code in PP #1 to guarantee user choice of - analog and discrete inputs - x milliseconds CPU time - analog and discrete output on a guaranteed time cycle - This was the best in the world at the time for doing hybrid computing :-)) which unfortunately was on its way out :-(( A system program to calculate resources to see if a new "time critical" user could be added to the running list. > The displays were vector only, not raster. Yes :-)) > There was dedicated hardware in the display console that did > CDC character set (a 6-bit code) conversion to vector characters. Not in any system we shipped, and we could run the "EYE" and Northwestern University CHESS program with another PP displaying the chess pieces in nice form on the right hand scope. The left hand scope being assigned to monitoring activity at the normally 8 "control points", showing activity and requests for operator intervention such as mounting/removing tapes and printer(s) out of paper... > Vector graphics were possible, within the limitations of the speed of > the PPU. Each PP had a 100 nano-second time sharing of the adder each 1 microsecond - hence a relatively hard upper limit of 10 PPs with out a special order for another 10 ( for customers such as Boeing). On later 6x00-series systems, such as the CYBER-73, the PPUs > ran fast enough to generate a nice looking all-vector chessboard on the > left screen, and a text-based transcript of the moves on the right > screen. There were also a number of other cute programs, one being a > pair of eyes (one on each screen) which would look around and blink. > The operating system was called KRONOS, and I clearly remember that the > console command to run the "eye" program was "X.EYES". Greg Mansfield had KRONOS going, and shipping to some customers, - mostly educational - by the time I left. Greg was kind of a one man band - a bit of a Dilbert - a remarkably imaginative and productive individual - I left CDC long before the CYBER-73 .... > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Ed Thelen From mwichary at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 03:21:32 2008 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 01:21:32 -0700 Subject: Introduction and photos. Message-ID: Hey everyone, By way of the introduction I promised yesterday, I thought I will just share my various computer history photos... and let them speak for themselves. Photos from the recent CHM warehouse open house: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/sets/72157604083156622/ Other computer history museums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/collections/72157603746061266/ Computer history events and miscellany: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/collections/72157603691109915/ Random photos from when I volunteer at the Computer History Museum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/sets/72157603768627712/ Outside of volunteering and visiting various computer history museums/ events, I collect 8-bit Atari XL line (nostalgia), read tons of computer history books, and design computer history posters. Some of them you can find here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/sets/72157603821017622/ Enjoy! Let me know if you have any comments/questions. -- Marcin Wichary Sr. user experience designer, Google Graphical User Interface gallery >> www.guidebookgallery.org Aresluna >> www.aresluna.org From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Mar 10 04:52:59 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:52:59 -0000 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: <200803100142.m2A1goss009973@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <005e01c88294$87495580$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:02:41 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Software patents don't exist. > >> Gordon > > Here is a link to a few online auction related patents that could not > exsist if you were correct. > > I agree they should not exsist but they do .... > And there are low life lawyers enforceing them. > > Got an extra few thousand dollard to test them with ? He'd be testing with pounds sterling, which might be why he thinks (correctly) that software patents don't exist (yet). Not that this will help him implement a successful competitor to epay: there have been a number of attempts by organisations that have deep enough pockets to withstand a few patent trolls. What they haven't had is eyeballs. We already have the VCM (when it's up :-)) but that only really caters for the likes of us. That's too small a market, I would say. You need to catch all those people with C64s plus something interesting in the cupboard. When they want to get rid of these things, they'll head for somewhere where they can (almost) guarantee that their item will be sold. I'd have a few off-topic items that I want to sell but I don't know of a specialist auction site that deals in TV amplifiers, so it's either going to end up on epay or in the bin (or sit in my junk box :-)). Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1322 - Release Date: 09/03/2008 12:17 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Mar 10 06:25:55 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:25:55 +0000 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <200803100212.m2A2CMJi022540@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803100212.m2A2CMJi022540@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3675C746-AC27-4DAF-A693-D0B0C3401C8D@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Bob Bradlee" > >>> Wouldn't that imply that your system works off of a basis of 256 >>> degrees >>> instead of 360? >>> > >> In this case, 1/262144 of a circle as it was on an 18 bit computer, >> but today you would probably use 32 bits. There's nothing special >> about dividing a circle into 360 parts anyway, 420 would have allowed > > > 2PI are Round! > There are 2Pi radians in a circle, very few in the graphics world > use interger degrees for anything other > than human readable or heman generated I/O. A line is bounded by 2 > points or can be described as a > angle and distance from a relitave point. While Arc's can be > specified by a start, end, and center point, > Curves are almost always specified in radians. Autodesk had an > interesting bulge value. > > In the graphics world 2 pi are round and can represent an infinate > number of angles, and truely not > square :) Yes of course this is generally true now that we have floating point built into nearly every processor, but suppose you using say a Pic chip to process navigational data, I don't think these have floating point so fixed point would still be useful. For my work when programming Microspot Interiors (http://www.microspot.co.uk/products/ interiorsPro/index.htm) I mainly use normalised vectors which I find far better in 3D systems than angles from the axes, but it is horses for courses. I also work on MacDraft (http://www.microspot.co.uk/ products/macdraft/index.htm) which is an old 2D program, which used to store angles in fixed point degrees and I have changed to floating point degrees, but without rewriting a lot of code and possibly creating bugs, thats as far as I am going. There are issues using 2Pi because of rounding errors. Usually you end up having tolerance values. Without tolerances, if someone rotates something by 90 degrees four times, they don't QUITE get what they started with when using 2PI, but with degrees, they do. As for representing an infinite number of angles, don't be silly. Especially if you are using tolerances. Roger Holmes, Technical Director, Microspot Ltd. From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Mar 10 08:24:10 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:24:10 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? In-Reply-To: <47D4B257.3080600@atarimuseum.com> References: <32266F1E-4FAF-4E97-A468-D853345055CA@xlisper.com> <47D4B257.3080600@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <53F538DE-9A6F-40D8-9204-267D7EE71A90@xlisper.com> Well, I *do* have an SIO2PC interface. However, I've never actually tried it! I guess this might be a good opportunity to do that. So, please send me the Translator disk image. Thanks! David On Mar 10, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > David do you have an SIO2PC interface??? If so, I can send you a > Translator disk image and you can transfer it to a diskette on your > XL system. > > > > Curt > > > > David Betz wrote: >> I have an Atari 800xl and a couple of 1050 disk drives. I also have >> two copies of the M.U.L.E. game on disk. Unfortunately, I can't get >> either to boot on the 800xl. I suspect that these are older games >> that were written for the 400/800 and may need the "translator >> disk" that allowed the 800xl to run games written for the older >> machines. Does anyone know where I could obtain a copy of this >> translator disk? >> >> Thanks! >> David Betz >> From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 09:37:56 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:37:56 -0400 Subject: The Ford Museum computer display Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0803100737w33047864ud54de2bca0d759a0@mail.gmail.com> I visited the (Henry) Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI this weekend - first time in about a year. They had an interesting display on how technology affects culture, starting out with books and magazines, running through radio and television, up to personal computers in the 80's. They had a "typical teenagers" room set up - complete with an Apple IIc, 9" screen, and Imagewriter II. They also had an original Mac 128 or 512 behind glass, the home Pong machine, and a selection of electronic games like Mattel Football, the Tomy Tutor, the Wizard, and others. It was a neat display, if not a bit limited in breadth. The Ford used to have an awesome display of old telephone and telegraph equipment, including a complete turn-of-the-last-century switchboard from a small local exchange. They mothballed the whole thing, but the huge display on aviation they replaced it with is pretty neat. They also had a large antique steam engine operating on compressed air for a while. It's pretty impressive seeing a 20' iron flywheel spinning using nothing but air. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Mar 10 11:49:59 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:49:59 +0100 Subject: CDC console In-Reply-To: <47D3E87B.6040003@ubanproductions.com> References: <47D3E87B.6040003@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20080310174959.28ae9f84@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 07:39:07 -0600 Tom Uban wrote: > I rescued what was left of one of these. Here is a bit of a writeup: > > http://ubanproductions.com/ConsoleRescue/index.html > > The parts are still sitting in my basement. This is a newer version of the Cyber console: http://static.cray-cyber.org/General/LARGE/Cyber_Big_Console.JPG It uses only one (still vector) tube to display the contents of the two tubes from the older console type. This console is connected to a machine that is run every saturday. Have a look at: http://www.cray-cyber.org/ You may contact Mr. Zabolitzky. IIRC he has full schematics for all of his systems. AFAIK he has one of the older two tube consoles in storage. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 10 14:08:29 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:08:29 -0500 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <3675C746-AC27-4DAF-A693-D0B0C3401C8D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <200803101806.m2AI6VWW011692@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:25:55 +0000, Roger Holmes wrote: >There are issues using 2Pi >because of rounding errors. Usually you end up having tolerance >values. Without tolerances, if someone rotates something by 90 >degrees four times, they don't QUITE get what they started with when >using 2PI, but with degrees, they do. Were are not talking about rotating an image here just projecting one. >As for representing an infinite number of angles, don't be silly. >Especially if you are using tolerances. Point taken :-) You also pointedout corredtly that floating point hardware was not always available. We were punching fixed-point CAD data on 80 col cards and plotting bed sheets on a flatbead plotter, it was "old" when I first worked with it in the mid 70's at Western Electric. BTW: radians work fine with fixpoint provided you are not rotating things that were previously rotated. Back to topic, I think the subject was displaying tesx on a vector screen. In the 1960's Dr. A.V. Hershey of the Naval Weapons Laboratory while working with the U. S.. National Bureau of Standards created the Hershey's Repertory of Occidental Type Fonts. This is the origional data set I used when I built the CADfont set for AutoCAD that became the extened font set and package with the product. Over the years many conversions/translations have been made, somewhere around here I have a copy coded in (lisp) for driving a flame cutter. Check it out, and yes it is interger vector based .... Here is a google link for more info: http://tinyurl.com/36un8h Back under my rock ... Bob From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 10 14:13:34 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:13:34 +0000 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: <200803100142.m2A1goss009973@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200803100142.m2A1goss009973@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1205176414.11180.7.camel@elric> On Sun, 2008-03-09 at 21:44 -0500, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:02:41 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >Software patents don't exist. > > >Gordon > > Here is a link to a few online auction related patents that could not exsist if you were correct. > > I agree they should not exsist but they do .... > And there are low life lawyers enforceing them. > > Got an extra few thousand dollard to test them with ? Hint: most of the world *doesn't* use dollars, and doesn't have the same clueless legal system that the US has. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 10 14:17:24 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:17:24 +0000 Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1205176644.11180.10.camel@elric> On Sun, 2008-03-09 at 22:41 +0000, Andrew Burton wrote: > Is that game for Mac/linux? The only reason I say that is because once downloaded you have to "make" it, which is something we don't do on windows (to my knowledge, anyway). Being as it came from the Linux Audio Developer list, I'd say it was for Linux. You could probably get it to work on a Mac. I don't know anything about Windows, having never programmed for it and only used it once or twice. Gordon From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 14:36:29 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:36:29 -0400 Subject: ebay fee hikes and stuff In-Reply-To: <1205176414.11180.7.camel@elric> References: <200803100142.m2A1goss009973@keith.ezwind.net> <1205176414.11180.7.camel@elric> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0803101236r5fc38608rd7d7139fd336ed34@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Hint: most of the world *doesn't* use dollars, and doesn't have the same > clueless legal system that the US has. The "business practice" patent mess is a failing of the US Patent Office, which is in the executive branch under the department of commerce, and doesn't have much to do with the judiciary. From pichotjm at free.fr Mon Mar 10 14:27:44 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:27:44 +0100 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) Message-ID: <000201c882e7$b3fe41a0$2601a8c0@JM3800> hi, I spent my week-end to write a report on the restoration of the early French computer ODP-505. This computer is built with germanium transistors and has a core memory. I spent my monday to translate the job for you. You will find the result here: http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/ODP505/ODP505us.html For curious people: you can visit the entire site with http://pichotjm.free.fr/indexUS.html Visting http://pichotjm.free.fr/ will gives quite the same, but in French. More information can be found in French. You can find more pictures... Enjoy! JMP From austin at ozpass.co.uk Mon Mar 10 15:20:43 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:20:43 +0000 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <000201c882e7$b3fe41a0$2601a8c0@JM3800> References: <000201c882e7$b3fe41a0$2601a8c0@JM3800> Message-ID: <560911A3-147B-4B2D-8C98-9B894529761E@ozpass.co.uk> On 10 Mar 2008, at 19:27, pichotjm wrote: > hi, > > I spent my week-end to write a report on the restoration of the > early French computer ODP-505. Thanks JMP! That's a great looking machine. Where in France are you located? -Austin. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 10 15:58:46 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:58:46 -0600 Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <1205176644.11180.10.camel@elric> References: <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <1205176644.11180.10.camel@elric> Message-ID: <47D5A106.4060103@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Being as it came from the Linux Audio Developer list, I'd say it was for > Linux. You could probably get it to work on a Mac. I don't know > anything about Windows, having never programmed for it and only used it > once or twice. Umm ... This is the classic computer list ... Wumpus should run under almost any Basic ... the real way to play it. :) > Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 10 16:35:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:35:50 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <200803101800.m2AI0Ded039096@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803101800.m2AI0Ded039096@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47D54746.3468.1FD70443@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:50:55 -0400 Roy wondered about systems with various CPU options. What CPU did the Jolt system use? Was there more than one CPU option? Does anyone still have one of these? (basically a stack of interconnected PC boards) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 10 16:46:17 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:46:17 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics In-Reply-To: <200803101800.m2AI0Ded039096@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803101800.m2AI0Ded039096@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47D549B9.14035.1FE094D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Mar 2008 at 12:00, Ed Thielen wrote: > Greg Mansfield had KRONOS going, and shipping to some customers, > - mostly educational - by the time I left. > Greg was kind of a one man band - a bit of a Dilbert > - a remarkably imaginative and productive individual - Greg later left CDC (during the 1980's decline and fall) and went to Cray. He was an active microcomputer addict and at the time, had a pretty elaborate Compupro system, IIRC. I had the pleasure of introducing Greg to the wonders of gelato; I've lost contact with him over the years and am not aware of what he's up to. His compatriot in crime at Arden Hills, Dave Callender (sp?) was quite a character in his own right. "Dr. Dave" maintained an active interest in bats and had various specimens on display in his office. Greg's work with MACE would not likely have attracted any notice at CDC were it not for Dave. I was once told (but don't know if it's accurate) that he was a student of Harold Edgerton's and had suggested photographing bats using Edgerton's strobe--whence the great photos of the bats of Carlsbad Cavern originated. Perhaps someone can confirm this. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 10 16:51:35 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:51:35 +0000 Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <47D5A106.4060103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <1205176644.11180.10.camel@elric> <47D5A106.4060103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1205185896.11180.14.camel@elric> On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 14:58 -0600, woodelf wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Being as it came from the Linux Audio Developer list, I'd say it was for > > Linux. You could probably get it to work on a Mac. I don't know > > anything about Windows, having never programmed for it and only used it > > once or twice. > > Umm ... This is the classic computer list ... Wumpus should run under almost > any Basic ... the real way to play it. :) Did you read the article? The clue is in the title - "Be The Wumpus", not "Hunt The Wumpus"... Gordon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 10 17:10:16 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:10:16 -0600 Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <1205185896.11180.14.camel@elric> References: <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <1205176644.11180.10.camel@elric> <47D5A106.4060103@jetnet.ab.ca> <1205185896.11180.14.camel@elric> Message-ID: <47D5B1C8.40501@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Did you read the article? The clue is in the title - "Be The Wumpus", > not "Hunt The Wumpus"... I read the subject line. Since I don't have linux at the moment I will stick my discussions to the classics .... > Gordon > PS: Now back to typing in Classic Basic Games ... :) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 10 17:25:59 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:25:59 +0000 Subject: Semi-OT: Sampler workshop manual Message-ID: <1205187959.11180.27.camel@elric> I found a PDF of the workshop manual for the Casio FZ-1 sampler online, and rescued it from what seems to be a rather slow and flaky site. Why mention it here? Well, the FZ-1 (and indeed the FZ-10m I'm repairing) are at least 10 years old and probably nearer 20, and are an example of an 8086-based device that's a) not a PC, and b) is capable of running user-supplied code. Tony - you'd probably like the manual. It details what the various ASICs do pin-by-pin, and even includes about two pages on how dynamic RAM works and why it's such a good idea. Even if you're not into weird old musical equipment, it's probably worth a read. http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/FZ-1_Service-Manual.pdf - 60M, don't kill my server. Gordon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 10 17:52:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:52:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hunt The Wumpus, eh? In-Reply-To: <836477.37870.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at Mar 9, 8 10:41:46 pm Message-ID: > > > Is that game for Mac/linux? The only reason I say that is because once > downloaded you have to "make" it, which is something we don't do on > windows (to my knowledge, anyway). IIRC, the original 'Hunt the Wumpus' game as a standard Unix program. > > If anyone is interested I have the BASIC code listings for (hunting > the) Wumpus 1 & 2 in the book BASIC Computer Games Vol. 2: TRS-80 > Edition, from 1980. I have a version for the HP41 calculator (!) if anyone is crazy enough to want it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 10 18:07:03 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:07:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: replacing failed components question causal or coincidental In-Reply-To: <002001c88243$acbe9510$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> from "Andrew Lynch" at Mar 9, 8 08:14:14 pm Message-ID: > However, that is the dilemma. How to establish what exactly is the root > cause without endangering the original piece of equipment? I would like > some independent verification if possible. Everytime you touch or make a > repair to an old computer there is a risk of unintended damage. I think that risk is very small. Certainly I've demonstated classic computer equipment to otehrs (for example at HPCC meetings) and I _always_ take it apart to explain the internals. I don't worry about damaging it. I use my clasiscs. They are not there to look nice on the shelf (or in my case 'look nice in a large pile on the floor). > Yes, I could swap the questionable components back into the system but I am > very reluctant to "screw around with it" once it is working. I dislike > using the restored piece as test equipment. But it's a pretty certain test. If the unit works cosnistently with the new CPU and fails consistently with the old one, it's a good bet the old CPU is defective. I've had LSI chips fail in very obscure ways, to the extent that they'd pass a lot of simple tests, but fail in actual use. Of coruse there's a test they'd fail too, but unless you know exactly what your tester is doing, you can't be sure it's going to exercise the faulty bit of the chip. > > Generally speaking, once it works reliably, I leave it alone until there is > reason to attempt more repairs. I have found it is very easy to > accidentally break things. That is why I rarely ever clean the boards or do > anything to them other than the bare minimum to make them work again. Odd. I guess I have a lot more confidence, but I am always pulling machine apart -- right apart. I've never done irreprrale damage. > > One concern about swapping possible bad parts into a working system is that > they could induce another failure and start the repair cycle all over again. This is one of the arguaments I use against module-swapping. That a faulty module could damage the new replacement (especially if the faulty part is, in fact, the power supply!). But I think the risk is miniml with a CPU chip. Moreover, the machine has been used with the (suspected) fault CPU in it (to the extent, IIRC, that it would boot on OS,) with no other damage occuring. I'd not worry about damage from that source. And if the machien is so stouchy that removing and replacing a socketted chip causes problems, then IMHO it's not fully repaired. I'd certainly not trust a machine like that. > > What would be ideal is some sort of test equipment I could plug a bad part > into and check to see if it is good or not. I can do that with EPROMs and > apparently there are TTL chip testers like the TOP2049 which provide 74LSxxx > testing. And be very careful with those testers. Some of them will pass chips that don't work correctly in the circuit. THe main problem is timing-related (I've had chips 'go slow' and have excessivley large propagation delays, most testers will not pick that up). But some of the cheaper testers fail to distinguish between a 'high' output and a floating one, and thuse don't fial chips where the upper transistor of the output stage has failed. And yes, I've had that. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 10 18:41:02 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing failed components question causal or coincidental In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803102341.TAA25298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Odd. I guess I have a lot more confidence, but I am always pulling > machine apart -- right apart. I've never done irreprrale damage. Of course, your idea of "reparable" is a bit more..inclusive..than most. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 10 18:41:57 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:41:57 +0000 Subject: What do you need for Hunt The Wumpus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1205192517.11180.30.camel@elric> On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 22:52 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Is that game for Mac/linux? The only reason I say that is because once > > downloaded you have to "make" it, which is something we don't do on > > windows (to my knowledge, anyway). > > IIRC, the original 'Hunt the Wumpus' game as a standard Unix program. > > > > > If anyone is interested I have the BASIC code listings for (hunting > > the) Wumpus 1 & 2 in the book BASIC Computer Games Vol. 2: TRS-80 > > Edition, from 1980. > > I have a version for the HP41 calculator (!) if anyone is crazy enough to > want it. Obviously it doesn't take much. What's the smallest (in physical size or in relative power) that Hunt The Wumpus has been ported to? I think the HP41 is well in there... Gordon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Mar 10 19:16:00 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 00:16:00 +0000 Subject: What do you need for Hunt The Wumpus? In-Reply-To: <1205192517.11180.30.camel@elric> References: <1205192517.11180.30.camel@elric> Message-ID: <47D5CF40.4060309@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/03/2008 23:41, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 22:52 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> Is that game for Mac/linux? The only reason I say that is because once >>> downloaded you have to "make" it, which is something we don't do on >>> windows (to my knowledge, anyway). >> IIRC, the original 'Hunt the Wumpus' game as a standard Unix program. >> >>> If anyone is interested I have the BASIC code listings for (hunting >>> the) Wumpus 1 & 2 in the book BASIC Computer Games Vol. 2: TRS-80 >>> Edition, from 1980. >> I have a version for the HP41 calculator (!) if anyone is crazy enough to >> want it. > > Obviously it doesn't take much. What's the smallest (in physical size > or in relative power) that Hunt The Wumpus has been ported to? > > I think the HP41 is well in there... I think so too. It probably beats the PDP-8 assembly-language version which a colleague created a year or two back to demo my PDP-8. By the way, the original wasn't written for Unix, though IIRC a ported version did appear in the games directory in one or two BSD releases. The original was written in BASIC in 1972-73, and the late Greg Yob (the author) wrote a piece about which is in the BASIC Computer Games books. My BASIC Games page has a machine-readable version at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/basicgames/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Mar 10 20:57:06 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:57:06 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Sampler workshop manual In-Reply-To: <1205187959.11180.27.camel@elric> References: <1205187959.11180.27.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200803102157.06584.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 10 March 2008 18:25, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I found a PDF of the workshop manual for the Casio FZ-1 sampler online, > and rescued it from what seems to be a rather slow and flaky site. > > Why mention it here? Well, the FZ-1 (and indeed the FZ-10m I'm > repairing) are at least 10 years old and probably nearer 20, and are an > example of an 8086-based device that's a) not a PC, and b) is capable of > running user-supplied code. > > Tony - you'd probably like the manual. It details what the various > ASICs do pin-by-pin, and even includes about two pages on how dynamic > RAM works and why it's such a good idea. > > Even if you're not into weird old musical equipment, it's probably worth > a read. > > http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/FZ-1_Service-Manual.pdf - 60M, don't kill > my server. Well, since we're going there... I used to work on a lot of that stuff. Closed my shop up back in 1992. At that time I took a whole mess of manuals to another, nearby shop that we had a good relationship with, saying something like "You'll probably find some use for these before I do..." and there they sat. Until recently, when I heard from the guy who's now running it, and he wants the space back so they can do some other stuff. So I'm getting them out of there, transportation permitting (and my car is currently off the road). The results of the first trip over there can be seen here: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/manuals.jpg I've been working up a list of what's there, just typing stuff into a text file and so far it's up around 50K bytes or so, and I have a good bit of that material to go yet. Anybody looking for any of that sort of stuff? Also included in that was a bunch of material that I did not have before, very old Altec and Bogen stuff for things like installed systems in schools and similar. I'm told that these are of some interest to guitar players but I don't play and don't know of any lists where I might mention such stuff, so if you do either feel free to pass this info along. There's still a 5-drawer file cabinet over there yet that I have to arrange to go and get... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Mar 10 21:45:38 2008 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:45:38 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: What do you need for Hunt The Wumpus? Message-ID: <31760973.1205203538362.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >By the way, the original wasn't written for Unix, though IIRC a ported >version did appear in the games directory in one or two BSD releases. >The original was written in BASIC in 1972-73, and the late Greg Yob (the >author) wrote a piece about which is in the BASIC Computer Games books. > My BASIC Games page has a machine-readable version at >http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/basicgames/ >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York If anyone wants to play WUMPUS, I have it on my Wofford Witch system online. Just go to my web site http://www.woffordwitch.com, and log onto my system using the guest account 40,1. Once you've logged in, you can run WUMPUS by typing RUN GAME:WUMPUS at the READY prompt. If you want to see the BASIC PLUS listing, you can type OLD GAME:WUMPUS and then type LIST at the READY prompt. This version is from the early-to-mid 1970s. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 10 23:12:49 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:12:49 -0700 Subject: replacing failed components question causal or coincidental In-Reply-To: References: <002001c88243$acbe9510$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > ---snip--- > > And be very careful with those testers. Some of them will pass chips that > don't work correctly in the circuit. THe main problem is timing-related > (I've had chips 'go slow' and have excessivley large propagation delays, > most testers will not pick that up). But some of the cheaper testers fail > to distinguish between a 'high' output and a floating one, and thuse > don't fial chips where the upper transistor of the output stage has > failed. And yes, I've had that. > Hi It must have been a Fairchild part. When at Intel they were notorious for that. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 10 23:21:18 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:21:18 -0700 Subject: Nostalgia trip In-Reply-To: <200803101806.m2AI6VWW011692@keith.ezwind.net> References: <3675C746-AC27-4DAF-A693-D0B0C3401C8D@microspot.co.uk> <200803101806.m2AI6VWW011692@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net >> > On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:25:55 +0000, Roger Holmes wrote: > >>There are issues using 2Pi >>because of rounding errors. Usually you end up having tolerance >>values. Without tolerances, if someone rotates something by 90 >>degrees four times, they don't QUITE get what they started with when >>using 2PI, but with degrees, they do. > > > Were are not talking about rotating an image here just projecting one. > Hi This is a common problem for most math functions. One of the problem is rounding to zero ( bad idea for continuous number lines with positive and negative values ). Floor math doesn't usually have such problems. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From jrr at flippers.com Mon Mar 10 15:21:24 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:21:24 -0700 Subject: replacing "failed" components question: causal or coincidental repairs? In-Reply-To: <00a501c88207$cd5857c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <00a501c88207$cd5857c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <47D59844.1050808@flippers.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, ... > When I bought this WMB machine it was completely dead. It had no response > at all and the Z80 CPU was completely static except for the clock input on > pin 6. I used my oscilloscope to debug the circuit. The PS checked out > fine. >... > What is bugging me in this case though is whether swapping the two CPUs is > actually fixing the REAL problem or just coincidentally doing *something* > which is the making it work but not actually fixing the underlying problem. > I am uncertain if my "repairs" are actually causal or coincidental. The > good news is in the end if the machine works reliably it doesn't matter all > that much but I'd sure like to know for certain what actually happened. > > Is there some method to verify a Z80 CPU or PIO is actually bad or not? I > have seen 74LSxxx chip testers which apparently work pretty well but nothing > that can test a Z80 CPU or other LSI type chip. > > Thanks in advance for any advice or constructive comments. > > Andrew Lynch > Testing a Z80 or other microprosessor based system usually requires more than a scope, logic probe, and voltmeter. A Fluke 9010 (or 9100) with a Z80 pod is good, or another CPU based test fixtures. The advantage of the Fluke is the ability to test the RAM, ROM, and I/O even if you do not know the memory map of your system. Best if you have a working system then you can create a memory location based layout of the firmware that the CPU 'sees'. Knowing this you can test the suspect machine by punching in the same values and see if the RAM or ROM test OK or not. If you do not have a working comparison machine you can test the RAM knowing where the Z80 first looks for RAM and then extrapolate the size of the RAM bank by the RAM IC part numbers. If you have 8 X 4116s then you have a 16K X 8 bank of RAM. Your problem is likely RAM or possibly boot ROM based if a second Z80 CPU gives similar symptoms, but identifying the particular IC is going to be a bit painful without the right tools. John :-#)# PS - I purvey these machines, as do others - -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 10:38:49 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:38:49 +0000 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0803110838r46ea11ebn7b4d8148c70d6cad@mail.gmail.com> On 09/03/2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 8, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Jason T wrote: > > I'd be happy to trade it for just about anything - help getting a copy > > of the O/S for this machine would be ideal. > > > What RT OS are you looking for? They ran BSD, AOS, and I think a > flavor of AIX. I'm pretty sure I have at least the first two. Also Pick, I believe, altho' the only machine I ever saw had just AIX. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Mar 11 10:59:13 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:59:13 -0300 Subject: Semi-OT: Sampler workshop manual References: <1205187959.11180.27.camel@elric> Message-ID: <019301c88391$23f5d870$f0fea8c0@portajara> > http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/FZ-1_Service-Manual.pdf - 60M, don't kill > my server. Gordon, seems to be a very interesting manual. Why not put it on your site for posterity AND on rapidshare for general downloading? I'll not put a load onto your server - please up it to rapidshare so I'll download from there :o) From mardy at voysys.com Tue Mar 11 11:05:18 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:05:18 -0400 Subject: Looking for C/nix from The Software Toolworks Message-ID: <2EBA84B2-509F-4446-B290-095B01FF44E0@voysys.com> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of C/nix that was published by The Software Toolworks? C/nix was a software toolkit that implemented a bunch of UNIX commands like "cat", "ls", "grep", etc. for CP/M. I've looked in the usual places, but no luck. -Mardy From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 11 12:05:03 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:05:03 +0100 Subject: IBM RT 6150? References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com><47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu><47962699.1000503@gmail.com><51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0803110838r46ea11ebn7b4d8148c70d6cad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701c8839a$cf2a0960$0501a8c0@xp1800> I gave my RT 6150/115 (with monitor keyboard mous and two external IBM disc's) last year to Henry Keultjes hbkeultjes-at-earthlink.net (-at- = @)who claimed to be one of the developers of Pick. He wanted to reinstall Pick on the RT to play with it, he also got my diagnostic discs. I do have somewhere a lot of images regarding the RT and AIX so if you want them let me know. -Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: Re: IBM RT 6150? > On 09/03/2008, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Mar 8, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Jason T wrote: >> > I'd be happy to trade it for just about anything - help getting a copy >> > of the O/S for this machine would be ideal. >> >> >> What RT OS are you looking for? They ran BSD, AOS, and I think a >> flavor of AIX. I'm pretty sure I have at least the first two. > > Also Pick, I believe, altho' the only machine I ever saw had just AIX. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com > Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 12:12:01 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:12:01 -0400 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <003701c8839a$cf2a0960$0501a8c0@xp1800> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com><47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu><47962699.1000503@gmail.com><51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0803110838r46ea11ebn7b4d8148c70d6cad@mail.gmail.com> <003701c8839a$cf2a0960$0501a8c0@xp1800> Message-ID: <47D6BD61.4070808@gmail.com> Rik wrote: > I gave my RT 6150/115 (with monitor keyboard mous and two external IBM > disc's) last year to Henry Keultjes hbkeultjes-at-earthlink.net (-at- = > @)who claimed to be one of the developers of Pick. > He wanted to reinstall Pick on the RT to play with it, he also got my > diagnostic discs. > I do have somewhere a lot of images regarding the RT and AIX so if you > want them let me know. Incidentally, if anyone ever decides to rid themselves of an RT, I'm in the market. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 11 14:24:53 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D-shell hole punches? Message-ID: <200803111935.PAA01599@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I'm looking for D-shell hole punches, for DB and DE shells, and possibly DA as well - Greenlee is the name I know, but I daresay others make them too. The major constraints: (a) the seller must ship to Canada; (b) the seller must take phone or fax orders - I can tolerate looking for things on the Web, but I will _not_ pay over the Web; (c) they must be decent quality - no cheap knockoffs that break along about the fifth time you use them (as Tony, I think, put it, I'm not rich enough to buy cheap tools). There is no need to be especially fast to use; if it takes a minute or two to position the pieces and crank a bolt down with a wrench or something, that's OK. Of course, I'd like them to be inexpensive too, but "inexpensive and not cheap" is a combination I don't really expect to find. If I'm asking for a pony, I'd also want the vendor to be in Montreal or Ottawa, but that's, well, asking for a pony. :) Any suggestions? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 11 15:10:48 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: <200803111935.PAA01599@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200803111935.PAA01599@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Mar 2008, der Mouse wrote: > I'm looking for D-shell hole punches, for DB and DE shells, and > possibly DA as well - Greenlee is the name I know, but I daresay others > make them too. The major constraints: (a) the seller must ship to > Canada; (b) the seller must take phone or fax orders - I can tolerate > looking for things on the Web, but I will _not_ pay over the Web; (c) > they must be decent quality - no cheap knockoffs that break along about > the fifth time you use them (as Tony, I think, put it, I'm not rich > enough to buy cheap tools). There is no need to be especially fast to > use; if it takes a minute or two to position the pieces and crank a > bolt down with a wrench or something, that's OK. > > Of course, I'd like them to be inexpensive too, but "inexpensive and > not cheap" is a combination I don't really expect to find. If I'm > asking for a pony, I'd also want the vendor to be in Montreal or > Ottawa, but that's, well, asking for a pony. :) > > Any suggestions? What's your budget? Mouser has Greenlee, but they're $230 or so apiece. If you come across what you want on Ebay, I'll broker it for you. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 11 16:15:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:15:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: replacing failed components question causal or coincidental In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Mar 10, 8 09:12:49 pm Message-ID: > > to distinguish between a 'high' output and a floating one, and thuse > > don't fial chips where the upper transistor of the output stage has > > failed. And yes, I've had that. > > > > Hi > It must have been a Fairchild part. When at Intel they were > notorious for that. I'm not sure it was. I've seen it a few times (i.e. more than once), always in 74Hxx numbers in HP98x0 calculators. I suspect the former is significant, the latter isn't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 11 16:23:05 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:23:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: <200803111935.PAA01599@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Mar 11, 8 03:24:53 pm Message-ID: > > I'm looking for D-shell hole punches, for DB and DE shells, and > possibly DA as well - Greenlee is the name I know, but I daresay others > make them too. The major constraints: (a) the seller must ship to > Canada; (b) the seller must take phone or fax orders - I can tolerate > looking for things on the Web, but I will _not_ pay over the Web; (c) > they must be decent quality - no cheap knockoffs that break along about RS components (that's not Radio Shack) certainly used to sell them, and probably stil ldo. However, unless you have a trade account, you _have_ to pay by credit card ontheir web site. But snce RS are one of the large trade component suppliers in the UK, since they've been around for _many_ years, I have no qualms at all about doing that. Be warned these punches are not cheap. I have the DB size one, and it cost me over \pounds 100.00. On the other hand they work well, and I've used it many times without problems. > the fifth time you use them (as Tony, I think, put it, I'm not rich > enough to buy cheap tools). There is no need to be especially fast to > use; if it takes a minute or two to position the pieces and crank a > bolt down with a wrench or something, that's OK. With the RS one, you first drill a hole in the middle of the place you want to put the connector. Bolt down a template supplied with the punch (the instructions suggest using the punch and its bolt for this, I found it a lot better to provide a separate nut and bolt), then drill 2 holes throug hthe template and panel (these will eventially be the mounting holes for the connector). Remove the template, assemble the die to the pnel (locating pins throuhg the holes you've just drilled), fit the punch (olt through the hole you drilled first), fit the ball thrust bearing and the nut. Tighten the nut, and you've made the hole. It's not as fast as a punch tool in a press, of course, but it sure beats filing it out by hand. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 17:49:09 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:49:09 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <003701c8839a$cf2a0960$0501a8c0@xp1800> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0803110838r46ea11ebn7b4d8148c70d6cad@mail.gmail.com> <003701c8839a$cf2a0960$0501a8c0@xp1800> Message-ID: <51ea77730803111549l60446970u1e8172a292d5878b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Rik wrote: > I gave my RT 6150/115 (with monitor keyboard mous and two external IBM > disc's) last year to Henry Keultjes hbkeultjes-at-earthlink.net (-at- = > @)who claimed to be one of the developers of Pick. > He wanted to reinstall Pick on the RT to play with it, he also got my > diagnostic discs. > I do have somewhere a lot of images regarding the RT and AIX so if you want > them let me know. I definitely would - I have no s/w on floppy for this box. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing I could write them with a PC's 1.2mb 5.25" drive? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 18:13:07 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: <200803111935.PAA01599@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <346517.16020.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- der Mouse wrote: > I'm looking for D-shell hole punches, for DB and DE > shells, and > possibly DA as well - Greenlee is the name I know, > but I daresay others > make them too. You mean they actually made a _tool_ for that? I always used a 1/4" drill bit and one of those Radio Shack nibbler tools. -Ian From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 11 20:11:24 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803120140.VAA04489@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I'm looking for D-shell hole punches, [...]; (b) the seller must >> take phone or fax orders - I can tolerate looking for things on the >> Web, but I will _not_ pay over the Web; [...] > RS components (that's not Radio Shack) certainly used to sell them, > and probably stil ldo. However, unless you have a trade account, you > _have_ to pay by credit card ontheir web site. Someone else will get my business, then; they've just opted themselves completely out of consideration for me. > But snce RS are one of the large trade component suppliers in the UK, > since they've been around for _many_ years, I have no qualms at all > about doing that. Distrust of the merchant is a comparatively small part of the reason I refuse to pay "online". A larger part is that I have no SSL support; an even larger part is that I know too much about the technology and don't trust it. The CA chain is insanely weak and nobody publishes their server key via anything even vaguely out-of-band. Web hosts are routinely pwn3d, and there is comparatively little case law on who's responsible for any resulting losses (I'm sure there is some by now, but the technology is very new compared to phone orders; there simply hasn't been time to accumulate enough case law to keep me happy). And while I recognize that many vendors will simply have the phone clerk type the card number into their webform, (a) if that goes wrong *they*, not *I*, are at fault, if fault there is found to be, and (b) there is an at least moderately good chance that the phone clerk does so on their intranet rather than on their world-facing webserver, rendering it at least somewhat more secure. (I suppose some of this comes down to distrust, but it's distrust in the sense of my not trusting them to use the technology right rather than my not trusting them to be non-malicious.) Perhaps it's another aspect of some of the personality traits that make me a classiccmper - a liking for "too simple to break", a liking for "been around long enough to be comparatively well known".... > Be warned these punches are not cheap. I have the DB size one, and > it cost me over \pounds 100.00. I'm not surprised. I would be suspicious of anything under $100, and I expect to pay more like $200-$300. (If I go ahead and buy, that is.) > With the RS one, you [...] I'd be slightly concerned about repeated drilling through the template enlarging its holes slightly each time the drill bit brushes the side of the template hole; I might make my own duplicate template.... > It's not as fast as a punch tool in a press, of course, but it sure > beats filing it out by hand. Or even dremelling it...I just did that (dremel, with file touchup), and it makes me tend towards the position that, even if it makes no _economic_ sense for someone who wouldn't use it every day to buy a multi-hundred-dollar punch, the hassle it'll save me, over all the holes I make with it in the future, makes it worth it. Incidentally, is anyone familiar with a treatment for aluminum that renders the surface nonconductive? The housing I made this hole in is made of aluminum - but I got a surprise when I was working with it and checked resistance to the housing and got infinity (which means more than about 40 megohms, for that meter). For a while I thought it might be plastic, but it dremels like aluminum, and it turns out that if I stick the ohmmeter leads on the cut surfaces it conducts fine - the insulation must be a surface treatment of some sort, and, indeed, I note that where I hit the surface accidentally while dremelling, it looks visibly different (lighter and shinier). It doesn't seem to peel like a plastic film (doesn't feel like it, either), though it did smell a bit like a plastic while I was dremelling it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Mar 11 22:07:12 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:07:12 -0400 Subject: D-shell hole punches? Message-ID: <8CA52054D43D277-944-452E@webmail-nb10.sysops.aol.com> Usually, when I need a template for a DB25, DE9, or whatever, I just dig in the junk box for an old PC-type serial bracket. You know, from back in the day when the serial ports were in one of the blank spots for empty card slots, instead of being on the motherboard itself? Naturally, I'd prefer a punch myself, but as everyone agrees, they are kind of pricey. Fortunately, I've never really needed one that often, that I couldn't deal with using a nibbling tool. Depending on how you're planning on mounting it, the hole may or may not need to be perfect. If you're putting the D-connector BEHIND the panel / chassis, then you'll want a nice, neat opening. Although it's not as pretty, you can cut a rectangular opening with a screw-hole on each side, and mount the flanged portion of the D-sub on the OUTSIDE of the chassis. If you're careful, the metal frame of the D-sub will cover up any imperfections in the size/shape of the opening. And lastly, the "down and dirty method" is to cut a 3" x 1/2" rectangular opening, and use one of the afore-mentioned PC brackets from behind for mounting. I know. . . not pretty, but sometimes handy when working on a chassis with existing knock-outs/holes which need covering anyway. T From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 11 23:30:06 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:30:06 -0800 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730803111549l60446970u1e8172a292d5878b@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> <51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0803110838r46ea11ebn7b4d8148c70d6cad@mail.gmail.com> <003701c8839a$cf2a0960$0501a8c0@xp1800> <51ea77730803111549l60446970u1e8172a292d5878b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D75C4E.5060500@msm.umr.edu> Jason T wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Rik wrote: > >> I gave my RT 6150/115 (with monitor keyboard mous and two external IBM >> disc's) last year to Henry Keultjes hbkeultjes-at-earthlink.net (-at- = >> @)who claimed to be one of the developers of Pick. >> He wanted to reinstall Pick on the RT to play with it, he also got my >> diagnostic discs. >> I do have somewhere a lot of images regarding the RT and AIX so if you want >> them let me know. >> > > I definitely would - I have no s/w on floppy for this box. I'm not > sure, but I'm guessing I could write them with a PC's 1.2mb 5.25" > drive? > > > The images can be written on standard 5 1/4" drives. Only thing to recall is the format flag in sector 0 if you overwrite it with something that fools the AT bios. But you can format up a diskette, and dd an image onto it w/o any problem from another unix type system. Only problem arises when writing from dos. Jim From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Mar 11 22:58:10 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:58:10 -0400 Subject: WaveMate Computers archive and mailing list Message-ID: <006f01c883f5$49ad9d00$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I started a Google Groups mailing list and archive for the WaveMate computers like the Bullet SBC. If you are a current owner, former owner, or just plain interested please check it out at: http://groups.google.com/group/wavemate_computers The archive contains lots of technical information like manuals, schematics, boot disks images, files, pictures, etc. There is a mailing list with some WaveMate Bullet owners to help answer questions and help you restore your system. Any contributions of WaveMate technical data, files, disk images, articles, or experiences are greatly appreciated. Please forward this message to any WaveMate owners who may be off list. There appear to be very few WaveMate computers still in existence so it would be nice to reach as many people as possible. Thanks! Please contact me off list if you have any questions. Andrew Lynch From philip at axeside.co.uk Tue Mar 11 05:07:58 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:07:58 +0000 Subject: Semi-OT: Sampler workshop manual In-Reply-To: <200803102157.06584.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <1205187959.11180.27.camel@elric> <200803102157.06584.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47D659FE.2020407@axeside.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Well, since we're going there... > > I used to work on a lot of that stuff. Closed my shop up back in 1992. At > that time I took a whole mess of manuals to another, nearby shop that we had > a good relationship with, saying something like "You'll probably find some > use for these before I do..." and there they sat. Until recently, when I > heard from the guy who's now running it, and he wants the space back so they > can do some other stuff. So I'm getting them out of there, transportation > permitting (and my car is currently off the road). The results of the first > trip over there can be seen here: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/manuals.jpg > > I've been working up a list of what's there, just typing stuff into a text > file and so far it's up around 50K bytes or so, and I have a good bit of > that material to go yet. Anybody looking for any of that sort of stuff? In a word, Yes. (I almost typed, "In a word, Yes please", but while politer, it didn't make sense.) In your picture I noticed Tektronix manuals, the top being for a 3-series 'scope plugin. I don't have that particular plugin, but I do have a 564 scope... I also noticed Moog manuals. You haven't got an Opus 3 service manual hidden away there, have you? I'll not place a bulk order since shippling is likely to be prohibitive (you're not in England, are you?), but I'll eagerly await your catalogue. Or even your catalog :-) > There's still a 5-drawer file cabinet over there yet that I have to arrange to > go and get... :-) Go for it! Philip. From pichotjm at free.fr Tue Mar 11 05:22:16 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:22:16 +0100 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) Message-ID: <001701c88361$c7f02690$2601a8c0@JM3800> |On 10 Mar 2008, at 19:27, pichotjm wrote: | |> hi, |> |> I spent my week-end to write a report on the restoration of the |> early French computer ODP-505. | |Thanks JMP! | |That's a great looking machine. Where in France are you located? | |-Austin.I lives NW of Paris, close Rouen (20 km) in a small city named 'Pavilly' with http://maps.google.fr/maps type Pavilly and you will have the location.I have a problem, to answer to messages. I don't know how to do it. I just consult archives of the group, and there is no reply possibility.So i need to open my OE and copy manualy, title and text... Is there a better method? In France, collectors prefer to discuss in newsgroups (fr.comp.ordinosaures)Have a nice day!JMP From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Mar 11 21:44:52 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:44:52 -0700 Subject: Manual/Docs/Help for Micro-Term Ergo 201? Message-ID: <47D743A4.70901@msu.edu> I have a Micro-Term Ergo 201 that I'd like to use with my PDP-11. Just one problem -- I can't figure out how to get this thing to save the settings in the Set-Up menus, so I have to adjust the baud rate, etc. every time I power it on. There doesn't seem to be any obvious way to do it -- is this just supposed to happen automatically when I exit? Thanks, Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Mar 11 23:10:08 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:10:08 -0700 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? Message-ID: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> So I'm cleaning out the Ergo 201 terminal I mentioned earlier (and preparing to do a cap kit on it since it needs it) and I've run across something that looks kind of like an electrolytic capacitor on a diet. I'm unable to identify it and I feel like an idiot :). At any rate, it appears to be leaking something so I'd like to replace it, once I can figure out what it is. Wish I had a schematic for this thing. Here's a couple of pictures of it: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-1.jpg http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-2.jpg Any ideas? The only markings on it are: 1019 8320 TWN on one side, and C-H-L TDK on the other. The positive terminal is labeled (which is the opposite of most capacitors I've seen...) Any thoughts? As always, thanks... - Josh From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Mar 12 02:59:40 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:59:40 +0000 Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: <200803120140.VAA04489@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200803120140.VAA04489@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <47D78D6C.3010909@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/03/2008 01:11, der Mouse wrote: > Someone else will get my business, then; they've just opted themselves > completely out of consideration for me. You could try Newark (www.newark.com). They're part of the Farnell group (www.farnell.com). Farnell sell Greenlee and a couple of other good makes (search for "connector punch"), but in North America they sell through Newark. Newark tends to be a bit expensive, but they will take phone orders and do ship to Canada. >> Be warned these punches are not cheap. I have the DB size one, and >> it cost me over \pounds 100.00. About double that now. > I'm not surprised. I would be suspicious of anything under $100, and I > expect to pay more like $200-$300. (If I go ahead and buy, that is.) > I'd be slightly concerned about repeated drilling through the template > enlarging its holes slightly each time the drill bit brushes the side > of the template hole; I might make my own duplicate template.... You can buy spare templates for a few $$ each. > Incidentally, is anyone familiar with a treatment for aluminum that > renders the surface nonconductive? The housing I made this hole in is > made of aluminum - but I got a surprise when I was working with it and > checked resistance to the housing and got infinity (which means more > than about 40 megohms, for that meter). Anodizing will do that. Aluminium oxide (alumina) is a good insulator. The oxide will form naturally on the surface, but anodizing gives a more even layer and is a common treatment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Mar 12 03:19:59 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:19:59 -0400 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? Message-ID: <8CA5230FEF9735B-ABC-579A@webmail-nb03.sysops.aol.com> Well, my first guess would be an inductor of some sort; TDK produces a line of inductors with that basic outline. It looks like exposed enamel wire and wax on top. Although I am confused by the outer covering, which appears to be indicating polarity. . . Bizarre. . . T From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 12 04:21:14 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:21:14 +0100 Subject: IBM RT 6150? References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com><47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu><47962699.1000503@gmail.com><51ea77730803081203k6d5e4462u552e22d081beeb98@mail.gmail.com><575131af0803110838r46ea11ebn7b4d8148c70d6cad@mail.gmail.com><003701c8839a$cf2a0960$0501a8c0@xp1800> <51ea77730803111549l60446970u1e8172a292d5878b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01c88422$6b8b87c0$0501a8c0@xp1800> Yes, with the usual sowfware .. rawrite or something like that contact me off-list about it. -Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:49 PM Subject: Re: IBM RT 6150? > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Rik wrote: >> I gave my RT 6150/115 (with monitor keyboard mous and two external IBM >> disc's) last year to Henry Keultjes hbkeultjes-at-earthlink.net (-at- = >> @)who claimed to be one of the developers of Pick. >> He wanted to reinstall Pick on the RT to play with it, he also got my >> diagnostic discs. >> I do have somewhere a lot of images regarding the RT and AIX so if you >> want >> them let me know. > > I definitely would - I have no s/w on floppy for this box. I'm not > sure, but I'm guessing I could write them with a PC's 1.2mb 5.25" > drive? > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Mar 12 05:01:15 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:01:15 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: D-shell hole punches? References: Message-ID: <005501c88428$03831660$911ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:23 PM Subject: [personal] Re: D-shell hole punches? >> I'm looking for D-shell hole punches, for DB and DE shells, and >> possibly DA as well - Greenlee is the name I know, but I daresay others >> make them too. The major constraints: (a) the seller must ship to >> Canada; (b) the seller must take phone or fax orders - I can tolerate >> looking for things on the Web, but I will _not_ pay over the Web; (c) >> they must be decent quality - no cheap knockoffs that break along about > The RS Website gives http://www.alliedelec.com/ as their rep for Canada. They (RS) still sell D hole punches in several forms including an hydraulic hand tool. The panel mount D shells do not have to be fitted to a D shaped hole. As a manufacturer of many styles of panels with D connectors we never fit them into D shaped holes. If you have only a couple of holes to do, rectangular is much easier to cut and file, we have cutout drawings if you want them. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 09:46:19 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:46:19 -0700 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? In-Reply-To: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> References: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:10:08 -0700 > From: derschjo at msu.edu > To: > Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? > > So I'm cleaning out the Ergo 201 terminal I mentioned earlier (and > preparing to do a cap kit on it since it needs it) and I've run across > something that looks kind of like an electrolytic capacitor on a diet. > I'm unable to identify it and I feel like an idiot :). At any rate, it > appears to be leaking something so I'd like to replace it, once I can > figure out what it is. Wish I had a schematic for this thing. > > Here's a couple of pictures of it: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-1.jpg > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-2.jpg > > Any ideas? The only markings on it are: > > 1019 > 8320 > TWN > > on one side, and > > C-H-L > TDK > > on the other. > > The positive terminal is labeled (which is the opposite of most > capacitors I've seen...) > > Any thoughts? > > As always, thanks... > - Josh Hi Josh It is most likely a capacitor but it might even be a battery. The value is another problem. I don't know how you might determine what it was. None of the numbers look like value descriptions. You might peel the plastic cover off and look at what is hiding inside. It might be a resistor/capacitor or a coil/capacitor circuit. In any case you could see if it really was a cap or battery. Since it is already bad, you'll not do it much harm. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Mar 12 11:33:46 2008 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? In-Reply-To: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> References: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Mar 2008, Josh Dersch wrote: > So I'm cleaning out the Ergo 201 terminal I mentioned earlier (and preparing > to do a cap kit on it since it needs it) and I've run across something that > looks kind of like an electrolytic capacitor on a diet. I'm unable to > identify it and I feel like an idiot :). At any rate, it appears to be > leaking something so I'd like to replace it, once I can figure out what it > is. Wish I had a schematic for this thing. > > Here's a couple of pictures of it: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-1.jpg > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-2.jpg > > Any ideas? The only markings on it are: > > 1019 > 8320 > TWN Thats a TDK inductor, basically a ferrite spool wound with enameled copper wire. Dont know why its polarized, but some inductors have built in permanent magnets to oppose the field generated by the normal current direction, giving higher (unidirectional) saturation currents. Its very unlikely anything is wrong with the inductor... > > on one side, and > > C-H-L > TDK > > on the other. > > The positive terminal is labeled (which is the opposite of most capacitors > I've seen...) > > Any thoughts? > > As always, thanks... > - Josh > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 12 11:39:50 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:39:50 -0700 Subject: Morrow documentation Message-ID: <47D80756.2040604@bitsavers.org> CHM received a bunch of George Morrow's engineering documentation yesterday. Is there anything in particular from MD that hasn't already been scanned that people are looking for? There are a few odd things, like Adaptec IC data sheets, and the FDC-3 schematics that I've found. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 12:57:28 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:57:28 -0700 Subject: Manual/Docs/Help for Micro-Term Ergo 201? In-Reply-To: <47D743A4.70901@msu.edu> References: <47D743A4.70901@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 7:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a Micro-Term Ergo 201 that I'd like to use with my PDP-11. Just > one problem -- I can't figure out how to get this thing to save the > settings in the Set-Up menus, so I have to adjust the baud rate, etc. > every time I power it on. There doesn't seem to be any obvious way to > do it -- is this just supposed to happen automatically when I exit. I think there is a battery inside that saves the settings. Early terminals had them soldered on the Planar board. You probably need to replace that. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From lee at geekdot.com Wed Mar 12 12:59:14 2008 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:59:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? Message-ID: <2558.78.32.193.107.1205344754.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > I've run across something that looks kind of like an > electrolytic capacitor on a diet. I'm unable to > identify it and I feel like an idiot :). It's a polarised inductor. There will be a permanent magnet on one end or the other of the core. Inductors like this are often used in the linearity circuits in monitors. > At any rate, it appears to be leaking something so > I'd like to replace it That's probably just wax to damp any mechanical vibration and stop it making noise. These inductors can often run very hot but I wouldn't bother replacing it unless there was evidence of the windings burning, which would destroy the plastic outer. Lee. From oldcomp at cox.net Wed Mar 12 14:23:30 2008 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:23:30 -0700 Subject: 6502 CPU schematics - 6501 In-Reply-To: <47D0E262.3080608@flippers.com> References: <0JXB00HPQM1V4Z40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47D03FB3.8040103@jetnet.ab.ca> <997E347C-AE25-4688-ABEB-B13790D25ECA@neurotica.com> <47D04E57.6050004@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D072D5.2040702@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D0BBBE.2090006@cox.net> <47D0C119.6040303@jetnet.ab.ca> <47D0E262.3080608@flippers.com> Message-ID: <47D82DB2.4090402@cox.net> John Robertson wrote: >>> >>> http://gallery.brouhaha.com/the_digital_group/img_3561 >>> >> You might want to copy the Prom if you can. The one in the photo >> does not have a cover, so it could be erased by now. >> > I can read/copy 1702A's if needed to archive that 6501 system Eprom... > > John :-#)# > Thanks John, I may take you up on that! The one in the photo isn't mine - I have mine covered - but a backup would be sweet. -Bryan From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Mar 12 15:16:10 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:16:10 -0600 Subject: HP-21MX bootstrapping? In-Reply-To: <200802232330.m1NNUJxL019372@mail.bcpl.net> References: <47B8B614.7010600@Rikers.org>, <200802212259.m1LMxW2x017654@mail.bcpl.net>, <47BFCB4E.10107@Rikers.org> <200802232330.m1NNUJxL019372@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <47D83A0A.2040907@Rikers.org> J. David Bryan wrote: > Digi-Key may have a complete replacement cable; I'll have to look at my > 2108B on Monday when I get to work. But, from memory, the cable has a 50 > pin IDC edge connector on one end and a four-row IDC "transition" connector > on the other that's soldered into the board. Part number C3PET-5006G-ND > might be it. > > But you'd have to unsolder the 50-pin transition connector from the front > panel PCB. It'd be easier to cut off and replace the edge connector, I > believe. > > The OEM part for the edge connector is 3M part number 3415-0001. The cable assembly was cheaper than the connector itself, though not the factory gray. I ordered a C3PES-5006G-ND and put it in last night. Seems to be working fine now. IBL now loads code into memory. Thanx again! I wish I had a full diagnostics virtual tape image to more fully check out on all my systems. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Mar 12 15:27:27 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:27:27 -0000 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505(germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <001701c88361$c7f02690$2601a8c0@JM3800> Message-ID: <001e01c8847f$7e748e60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> pichotjm wrote: > method? In France, collectors prefer to discuss in newsgroups > (fr.comp.ordinosaures)Have a nice day!JMP Sadly my ISP doesn't carry that newsgroup (fr.comp.os.* is all they seem to have!). Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1325 - Release Date: 11/03/2008 13:41 From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Mar 12 16:52:41 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:52:41 -0400 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? In-Reply-To: <8CA5230FEF9735B-ABC-579A@webmail-nb03.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA5230FEF9735B-ABC-579A@webmail-nb03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <200803121752.41273.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 March 2008 04:19, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > Well, my first guess would be an inductor of some sort; > TDK produces a line of inductors with that basic outline. > > It looks like exposed enamel wire and wax on top. > > Although I am confused by the outer covering, > which appears to be indicating polarity. . . Yup, that's a coil all right... I have a number of them that look like that in my scrap parts. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Mar 12 12:57:00 2008 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:57:00 +0000 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electr In-Reply-To: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> Message-ID: <6bplrs$5ukchk@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> > So I'm cleaning out the Ergo 201 terminal I mentioned earlier (and > preparing to do a cap kit on it since it needs it) and I've run across > something that looks kind of like an electrolytic capacitor on a diet. > I'm unable to identify it and I feel like an idiot :). At any rate, it > appears to be leaking something so I'd like to replace it, once I can > figure out what it is. Wish I had a schematic for this thing. > > Here's a couple of pictures of it: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-1.jpg > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-2.jpg > > Any ideas? The only markings on it are: Yes this is inductor with a magnet superglued on top and sleeved with shrink tubing to protect it. I don't see anything serious wrong with it, just get that bit of glue off (it will come off with little nail finger scratching). The funny tan/brown bit stuck to the side of the shrink tubing is glue that you will find all over the board to glue the capacitors and stuff down. Scratch these off as you replace components, as it is bad stuff that turns conductive with time and heat. That inductor with magnet is for linearity to shape the horizontal pulses for the yoke. Resolder horizontal circuit, vertical circuit and power supply areas to take care of 90% solder issues. Cheers, Wizard From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Wed Mar 12 18:53:41 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:53:41 -0800 Subject: Data I/O 29A vs. 29B References: Message-ID: <001501c8849c$4ce1a500$0201a8c0@hal9000> In order to support my classic computers I need a GOOD EPROM Programmer ( that puts it on topic ... ). I've used and like the Data I/O 29B but don't know squat about the 29A. Are they about the same or is the 29A a POS ?? What would be a FAIR price for either ? Is it worth more to opt for the 29B ?? Thanks. Best regards, Steven P.S. I bought one of those Ebay special ( German ? ) single-board " Universal " programmers and it IS a POS !! From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Mar 12 18:04:13 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:04:13 +0000 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? In-Reply-To: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> References: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> Message-ID: <1205363053.11536.3.camel@elric> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 21:10 -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > So I'm cleaning out the Ergo 201 terminal I mentioned earlier (and > preparing to do a cap kit on it since it needs it) and I've run across > something that looks kind of like an electrolytic capacitor on a diet. > I'm unable to identify it and I feel like an idiot :). At any rate, it > appears to be leaking something so I'd like to replace it, once I can > figure out what it is. Wish I had a schematic for this thing. > > Here's a couple of pictures of it: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-1.jpg > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-2.jpg > > Any ideas? The only markings on it are: It's either an inductor or an electrolytic with a "thing" for corsetry. Gordon From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 12 18:09:38 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:09:38 -0400 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch Message-ID: <200803122309.m2CN9cVn017857@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Hi, Looking for switch setting info for the serial (multi interface?) board in a Facit 4070 tape punch. The stencilled on labels are a little cryptic, and there's no stencil for the big chrome toggle switch on the back. Thanks, De From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 12 18:11:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:11:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: <346517.16020.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Mar 11, 8 04:13:07 pm Message-ID: > You mean they actually made a _tool_ for that? I Oh yes. And for many other non-circular components (IEC mains connectors, rocker switches, etc). The only problems are (a) the price and (b) they don't work on thick metal panels (or most plastics). > always used a 1/4" drill bit and one of those Radio > Shack nibbler tools. Given 'normal' tools, I found the easiest way was to use a drill bit the same diameter as the width of the D-connector (it's not that large). Drile a line of holes along the centre line of the connector position, then cut between them and file to shape. I've been known to use a 118" slot drill in a milling machine [1] to cut rectangular holes in diecast boxes... Takes time, but it makes a lovely job of it. [1] Actually a small lathe with a vertical slide. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 12 18:19:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:19:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: <8CA52054D43D277-944-452E@webmail-nb10.sysops.aol.com> from "tiggerlasv@aim.com" at Mar 11, 8 11:07:12 pm Message-ID: > > > Usually, when I need a template for a DB25, DE9, or whatever, > I just dig in the junk box for an old PC-type serial bracket. > > You know, from back in the day when the serial ports were > in one of the blank spots for empty card slots, instead of > being on the motherboard itself? AS they still are on all the PCs here.... When I needed to cut a D-connector hole in a plastic blanking panel, with the ocnnector mounted from the back (so it had to be pretty neat), I did use a 'spare' PC beacket. I clamped it to the panel I wanted to make the hole in, and drilled the connector mounting holes. Then fixed the 2 parts together through said hoels and used the bracket to guide a drill bit round the areal I wanted to cut out (the metal is so much harder than the plstic that this worked very well). And then just filed it round, again it was obvious when I was trying to file the metal. What was I doing? Mounting a DC37 socket in the second drive bay of a single-drive Amstrad PPC640 laptop. That way I could use said laptop to run the Microtest system, used to align floppy drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 12 18:23:28 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:23:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic In-Reply-To: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Mar 11, 8 09:10:08 pm Message-ID: > > So I'm cleaning out the Ergo 201 terminal I mentioned earlier (and > preparing to do a cap kit on it since it needs it) and I've run across > something that looks kind of like an electrolytic capacitor on a diet. > I'm unable to identify it and I feel like an idiot :). At any rate, it > appears to be leaking something so I'd like to replace it, once I can > figure out what it is. Wish I had a schematic for this thing. > > Here's a couple of pictures of it: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-1.jpg > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-2.jpg > > Any ideas? The only markings on it are: > > 1019 > 8320 > TWN > > on one side, and > > C-H-L > TDK It looks like an inductor, and TDK are of course known for (electo)magnetic stuff. The only puzzler is the polarity marking. Now, as you may know, ferrite cores can saturate, so that the inductance of a ferrite-cored inductor depends on the current though it. And there are such inductors with a permanent bias magnet, so that the curent-inductance characteristic depends on the direction of the currnet. And yse, such components are commonly used in monitor, and thus terminal, horizontal deflection circuits as linearity correction devices. Some are adjustable (the magnet can be turned to alter its effect), some are fixed. The only thing is, I've never seen one with a polarity marking (often they pnly fit the PCB one way round), and they're normally larger than the comopneent you show. But have yo tried to see if it's magnetic? Will it attract a non-magnetised tool? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 12 18:38:00 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:38:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <200803122309.m2CN9cVn017857@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Mar 12, 8 07:09:38 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Looking for switch setting info for the serial (multi interface?) board > in a Facit 4070 tape punch. The stencilled on labels are a little > cryptic, and there's no stencil for the big chrome toggle switch on the > back. This is clearly not the same serial interface that i have in one of my Facits. Mine has no switches (just soldered jumpers) and half the PCB etch is text explaining how to set them (!). Can you give the labels on the switches on your board? And what are the main chips on it (is it a 1602/6402 type of UART, or a microprocessor-based circuit, or what?) -tony From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 12 19:29:23 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:29:23 -0400 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:38:00 -0000.) References: Message-ID: <200803130029.m2D0TNkW019591@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > This is clearly not the same serial interface that i have in one of my > Facits. Mine has no switches (just soldered jumpers) and half the PCB > etch is text explaining how to set them (!). > Can you give the labels on the switches on your board? And what are the > main chips on it (is it a 1602/6402 type of UART, or a > microprocessor-based circuit, or what?) Tony, Here's a rough list of what's on the board: Part no 1140 68 10-00 AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) MC14411P 24 pin dip (uart?) 1489 line driver 27 assorted 7400 series Various discretes, including 17 large transistors/regulators 8 wire jumpers labelled 1-8 Wire jumper labelled ERR Place for wire jumper labelled TL Large chrome toggle switch labelled SER/PAR/SERIAL WITH ERROR CODE on card edge (missed the labeling on this earlier) DB25 on card edge 8-switch dip pack labelled bit1-bit8 error code 4-switch dip pack unlabelled 5-switch dip pack labelled with baud rates 75-600 8-switch dip pack labelled as follows: 1. PARITY 2. 1STOP 3. NB 2 4. NB 1 5. ODD CH 6. BIT 8 7. / EVEN GEN 8. \ ODD Chip dates are mostly 1978. The toggle switch, error code and baud rate stuff is all obvious. I can figure out parity and 1stop by trial and error. For the rest I could use some clues. Thanks, De From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Mar 12 19:37:06 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:37:06 -0400 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <200803130029.m2D0TNkW019591@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200803130029.m2D0TNkW019591@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200803122037.07168.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 March 2008 20:29, Dennis Boone wrote: > > This is clearly not the same serial interface that i have in one of my > > Facits. Mine has no switches (just soldered jumpers) and half the PCB > > etch is text explaining how to set them (!). > > > > Can you give the labels on the switches on your board? And what are the > > main chips on it (is it a 1602/6402 type of UART, or a > > microprocessor-based circuit, or what?) > > Tony, > > Here's a rough list of what's on the board: > > Part no 1140 68 10-00 > > AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) UART, I think. I know I've run into that number somewhere before. > MC14411P 24 pin dip (uart?) Baud rate generator. Look for a crystal somewhere close to that part. > 1489 line driver > 27 assorted 7400 series > Various discretes, including 17 large transistors/regulators > 8 wire jumpers labelled 1-8 > Wire jumper labelled ERR > Place for wire jumper labelled TL > Large chrome toggle switch labelled SER/PAR/SERIAL WITH ERROR CODE on > card edge (missed the labeling on this earlier) > DB25 on card edge > 8-switch dip pack labelled bit1-bit8 error code > 4-switch dip pack unlabelled > 5-switch dip pack labelled with baud rates 75-600 Bet you can trace some of the connections from that one to that MC14411 chip. > 8-switch dip pack labelled as follows: > 1. PARITY > 2. 1STOP > 3. NB 2 > 4. NB 1 > 5. ODD CH > 6. BIT 8 > 7. / EVEN > GEN > 8. \ ODD > > Chip dates are mostly 1978. > > The toggle switch, error code and baud rate stuff is all obvious. I can > figure out parity and 1stop by trial and error. For the rest I could > use some clues. Mostly the later UARTs are programmed to set things up. Likewise a bunch of the baud rate chips. This is earlier stuff you're dealing with here... Anybody know who made those parts with numbers like AY-n-nnnn? I don't think I have much data on those offhand. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 12 19:59:45 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:59:45 -0400 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:37:06 EDT.) <200803122037.07168.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200803122037.07168.rtellason@verizon.net> <200803130029.m2D0TNkW019591@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200803130059.m2D0xjua020308@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) > UART, I think. I know I've run into that number somewhere before. If the 14411 is a baud rate generator, then this must be a uart, especially as now that I look at the traces, the puzzling 8-pack switches 1-5 go right to it. FWIW, The rest of the label is "GIMT 7816U". No logo. > > MC14411P 24 pin dip (uart?) > Baud rate generator. Look for a crystal somewhere close to that part. Yup: ITT 4729 7903 > > 5-switch dip pack labelled with baud rates 75-600 > Bet you can trace some of the connections from that one to that MC14411 > chip. Yup, a whole half inch away. De From g-wright at att.net Wed Mar 12 21:47:54 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 02:47:54 +0000 Subject: Morrow documentation Message-ID: <031320080247.23955.47D895D90006B79800005D9322230703629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Al Kossow : -------------- > CHM received a bunch of George Morrow's engineering documentation yesterday. > Is there anything in particular from MD that hasn't already been scanned that > people > are looking for? > > There are a few odd things, like Adaptec IC data sheets, and the FDC-3 > schematics > that I've found. > > 2 systems Anything on the "Decision I" S100 system would be nice. I have not looked lately. A few years back someone connected to his stash was going to send me the info on these. Never did happen. They were a S100 bus system, but had non standard things like serial IO on the mother board with lots of jumpers. The Morrow portable. The one I have is just a Micro Decision in a Compaq Portable type box with a built in monitor. a little smaller in size though . - Jerry From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Mar 12 21:52:54 2008 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:52:54 -0400 Subject: HP-21MX bootstrapping? References: <47B8B614.7010600@Rikers.org>, <200802212259.m1LMxW2x017654@mail.bcpl.net>, <47BFCB4E.10107@Rikers.org> <200802232330.m1NNUJxL019372@mail.bcpl.net> <47D83A0A.2040907@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <002601c884b5$56399360$6601a8c0@screamer> Its easy to bootstrap HP-IPL/OS, which has decent diagnostic capability to check out 21MX machines. Look at: http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Riker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: Re: HP-21MX bootstrapping? > J. David Bryan wrote: >> Digi-Key may have a complete replacement cable; I'll have to look at my >> 2108B on Monday when I get to work. But, from memory, the cable has a 50 >> pin IDC edge connector on one end and a four-row IDC "transition" >> connector >> on the other that's soldered into the board. Part number C3PET-5006G-ND >> might be it. >> >> But you'd have to unsolder the 50-pin transition connector from the front >> panel PCB. It'd be easier to cut off and replace the edge connector, I >> believe. >> >> The OEM part for the edge connector is 3M part number 3415-0001. > > The cable assembly was cheaper than the connector itself, though not the > factory gray. I ordered a C3PES-5006G-ND and put it in last night. Seems > to be working fine now. IBL now loads code into memory. > > Thanx again! > > I wish I had a full diagnostics virtual tape image to more fully check > out on all my systems. > -- > Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From technobug at comcast.net Wed Mar 12 22:36:17 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:36:17 -0700 Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: <200803121800.m2CI0qTj065986@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803121800.m2CI0qTj065986@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0E4A0FAB-F16A-4AA6-B6B9-96809F141029@comcast.net> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:24:53 -0400 (EDT), der Mouse wrote: > I'm looking for D-shell hole punches, for DB and DE shells, and > possibly DA as well - Greenlee is the name I know, but I daresay > others > make them too. [...] > > Any suggestions? I've gone a bit of different route than the use of punches and nibblers - the former being too expensive for an occasional job and the latter too much of a pain. I use a spiral cutter and a template. I picked up a cheap spiral cutter from my neighborhood China Town store and modified it by adding a template follower to the head. I generate the template on a cad program, expand it twice needed and print onto card stock which I then hand cut. I use this template to cut the final template in plastic. Drill a hole at the cut-out site, clamp the template on the target piece and cut away. You should ensure that you get a metal cutter if you are doing steel or aluminum (aluminium). I found that taking two steps to generate the template results in a much better result. My cutter was bought on sale for under US$ 20 for a one-off job and kept around and modified when I ran into a situation that needed a odd shape cut-out. A good cutter will run under US$ 75 and the bits are on the order of 5-10. I've used it to do D-holes for BNCs and power cords, connectors, as well as many other openings such as for fans. CRC From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 12 23:34:20 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:34:20 -0700 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? In-Reply-To: References: <47D757A0.7010609@msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:46:19 -0700 > Subject: RE: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? > > > > > >> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:10:08 -0700 >> From: derschjo at msu.edu >> To: >> Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic component? >> ---snip--- > > Hi Josh > It is most likely a capacitor but it might even be a battery. > The value is another problem. I don't know how you might determine > what it was. None of the numbers look like value descriptions. > You might peel the plastic cover off and look at what is hiding > inside. It might be a resistor/capacitor or a coil/capacitor > circuit. In any case you could see if it really was a cap or > battery. > Since it is already bad, you'll not do it much harm. > Dwight Hi I agree, it is a coil. Don't know what I was thinking. TDK is a sure giveaway. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Mar 13 00:30:57 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:30:57 -0600 Subject: HP-21xx assembly Message-ID: <47D8BC11.6000407@Rikers.org> Is there a pdf version of jeff's asmref.html? mirror: http://rikers.org/hp2100/jeff/asmref/index.html with some edits: http://rikers.org/hp2100/asmref.html I've been fixing obvious errors, but I'm not sure if the errors were from OCR or in the original. Also I don't have the diagrams in there from the original docs. I'm looking for docs on the REL tape format(s) to add support to asm21.pl The relocatable library docs don't seem to cover the tape format itself, just the calling convention etc. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/02116-91780_RelocatableSubroutines_Oct1973.pdf Pointers appreciated. :) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Mar 13 01:43:44 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:43:44 -0500 Subject: Tektronics 4051 collection -- on craigslist in austin, texas, usa, earth Message-ID: <47D8CD20.6040303@pacbell.net> Full text of the message, although the listing also contains a scan of a manual cover: My dad bought & used the 4051 series computers for many, many years, and accumulated several 4051 computers, peripherals, etc. He bought his first one in 1976, it was an amazing computer! Believe it or not, he was still programming the beast until about 3 years ago. So several of these computers still work. These things are RARE as hen's teeth now, and he has a lot of parts, even a screen for one that is new-old-stock still in the box (this is the computer that had the cool vector graphics screen!). I don't have pictures yet, but will get some. I want $2000 bucks for the whole collection of stuff. great find for a collector/tinkerer, as these don't show up very often. cash only, no checks. http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/604555003.html As the URL says, this is in Austin, Texas. $2000 seems kinda rich to me, but maybe to someone on this list it is worth it. I watch austin craigslist frequently and vintage computer gear doesn't show up all that often. I am not the seller; I don't know the seller; do your own vetting. Sorry, I'm not available to pick this up and ship it to a non-local buyer. Contents may settle during shipping. Your mileage may vary. From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Wed Mar 12 07:13:33 2008 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:13:33 +0100 Subject: motorola boards Message-ID: <001b01c8843a$81d44180$04000005@pcnierveze> hello everyone , since a long time I have lots of motorola ,exorciser bus,boards: I'd like to use them,I have looked on the web on several sites for documentation and found nothing, they are: *motorola microsystems m68mmoia2,it includes :cpu 6800+clock,two pias,one acia ,8 2012 rams ,sockets for rom * one exorset floppy interface *micro module 7 :4 serial lines.84dw6756x01 *another micromodule 1,with cpu+clock+2 pias ,no acia:84dw6200x01 *a debug2 oidw1708x01,test card . * static ram 2 mex68 84 dw6714x01 fith 4 rows of 9 2141 rams several of them may come from an exorciser ,I also have the backplane from an exorciser ,as I am playing with 6800 cpu now (and other ones) any information would be useful ,thanks very much best regards a.nierveze From jeffj at panix.com Thu Mar 13 00:55:19 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 32 sector 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <200803121803.m2CI3KJ0066049@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803121803.m2CI3KJ0066049@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I just found a box of about 15: 8 inch floppies 32 sectors (hard sectored) Double Sided Single Density. Some are TDK F1-H Any takers? I'm in Elizabeth (central) NJ: they're free if you can pick them up! From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Mar 13 01:25:13 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:25:13 -0700 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D8C8C9.3040809@msu.edu> Thanks for all the responses. It does look like it's an inductor, and it is magnetic (wouldn't have thought to try that :)). Now I know, for future reference. Josh Tony Duell wrote: >> So I'm cleaning out the Ergo 201 terminal I mentioned earlier (and >> preparing to do a cap kit on it since it needs it) and I've run across >> something that looks kind of like an electrolytic capacitor on a diet. >> I'm unable to identify it and I feel like an idiot :). At any rate, it >> appears to be leaking something so I'd like to replace it, once I can >> figure out what it is. Wish I had a schematic for this thing. >> >> Here's a couple of pictures of it: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-1.jpg >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mystery-2.jpg >> >> Any ideas? The only markings on it are: >> >> 1019 >> 8320 >> TWN >> >> on one side, and >> >> C-H-L >> TDK >> > > It looks like an inductor, and TDK are of course known for > (electo)magnetic stuff. The only puzzler is the polarity marking. > > Now, as you may know, ferrite cores can saturate, so that the inductance > of a ferrite-cored inductor depends on the current though it. And there > are such inductors with a permanent bias magnet, so that the > curent-inductance characteristic depends on the direction of the currnet. > And yse, such components are commonly used in monitor, and thus terminal, > horizontal deflection circuits as linearity correction devices. Some are > adjustable (the magnet can be turned to alter its effect), some are fixed. > > The only thing is, I've never seen one with a polarity marking (often > they pnly fit the PCB one way round), and they're normally larger than > the comopneent you show. > > But have yo tried to see if it's magnetic? Will it attract a > non-magnetised tool? > > -tony > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Mar 13 01:26:53 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:26:53 -0700 Subject: Manual/Docs/Help for Micro-Term Ergo 201? In-Reply-To: References: <47D743A4.70901@msu.edu> Message-ID: <47D8C92D.9040509@msu.edu> Paxton Hoag wrote: > I think there is a battery inside that saves the settings. Early > terminals had them soldered on the Planar board. You probably need to > replace that. > > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > > That's what I would have thought, too, but there isn't any battery that I can see on the PCB (nor does it look like there has ever been one). Were there other methods for storing settings aside from battery-backed ram? Thanks, Josh From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Mar 13 02:38:49 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 07:38:49 +0000 Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1205393929.12874.5.camel@elric> On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 23:23 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > The only thing is, I've never seen one with a polarity marking (often > they pnly fit the PCB one way round), and they're normally larger than > the comopneent you show. I'm surprised at that - they crop up in monitors a lot, usually where they linearise (or non-linearise) scan waveforms. The magnet gives the coil slightly different properties depending on which way round the current flows. Gordon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 13 04:25:00 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:25:00 -0800 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch References: <200803130029.m2D0TNkW019591@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200803122037.07168.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47D8F2EB.42070B38@cs.ubc.ca> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > Anybody know who made those parts with numbers like AY-n-nnnn? I don't think > I have much data on those offhand. General Instrument. Often there's a "GI" logo on their chips. Dennis Boone wrote: > > > AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) > > > UART, I think. I know I've run into that number somewhere before. > > If the 14411 is a baud rate generator, then this must be a uart, > especially as now that I look at the traces, the puzzling 8-pack > switches 1-5 go right to it. (Yes, the AY-5-1013 is a hardware/switch/pin-configured UART. Can supply pinout if needed.) From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Mar 13 03:35:01 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 04:35:01 -0400 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <47D8F2EB.42070B38@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200803122037.07168.rtellason@verizon.net> <47D8F2EB.42070B38@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200803130435.01681.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 13 March 2008 05:25, Brent Hilpert wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > Anybody know who made those parts with numbers like AY-n-nnnn? I don't > > think I have much data on those offhand. > > General Instrument. Often there's a "GI" logo on their chips. Ah yes. Vague recollections were nudging me in that direction... :-) > Dennis Boone wrote: > > > > AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) > > > > > > UART, I think. I know I've run into that number somewhere before. > > > > If the 14411 is a baud rate generator, then this must be a uart, > > especially as now that I look at the traces, the puzzling 8-pack > > switches 1-5 go right to it. > > (Yes, the AY-5-1013 is a hardware/switch/pin-configured UART. Can supply > pinout if needed.) That may be why I was recalling that number. The other one of those being what, a 6402 or similar? I'm thinking Standard Microsystems, for which I do have a databook someplace though I haven't seen it in ages. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Mar 13 05:51:31 2008 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:51:31 +0000 Subject: Z80 emulator in perl Message-ID: <20080313105131.GA30309@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Dunno if this will be considered on-topic or not, as it's not about real hardware - if not, my humble apologies. Last night I released a Z80 emulator written in perl to the CPAN. You can download it from: http://search.cpan.org/~dcantrell/CPU-Emulator-Z80-0.9/ and the source is in CVS on sourceforget: http://drhyde.cvs.sourceforge.net/drhyde/perlmodules/CPU-Emulator-Z80/ It emulates almost all of the "undocumented" instructions, I/O, and interrupt mode 1. I am very grateful to the author of FUSE for licencing it in such a way that I could use his comprehensive suite of tests. Now I have to write an assembler, and have the fun of writing an operating system :-) -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness On the bright side, if sendmail is tied up routing spam and pointless uknot posts, it's not waving its arse around saying "root me!" -- Peter Corlett, in uknot From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 08:26:15 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:26:15 -0400 Subject: Z80 emulator in perl In-Reply-To: <20080313105131.GA30309@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20080313105131.GA30309@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0803130626g54890ce3xe77fd3a7539ebc5f@mail.gmail.com> Impressive and insane at the same time. Nice work! What kind of speed are you getting? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 13 08:55:01 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 06:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z80 emulator in perl In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0803130626g54890ce3xe77fd3a7539ebc5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080313105131.GA30309@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <5f7d1b0e0803130626g54890ce3xe77fd3a7539ebc5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Impressive and insane at the same time. Nice work! What kind of speed are > you getting? > I'm definately in the "stunned" category myself. Whoda thunk it? :) Congrats! Now, who is going to do one in INTERCAL? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 08:55:51 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 06:55:51 -0700 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <47D8F2EB.42070B38@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200803130029.m2D0TNkW019591@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200803122037.07168.rtellason@verizon.net> <47D8F2EB.42070B38@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:25:00 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at priv-edtnaa04.telusplanet.net > CC: > Subject: Re: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch > > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: >> Anybody know who made those parts with numbers like AY-n-nnnn? I don't think >> I have much data on those offhand. > > General Instrument. Often there's a "GI" logo on their chips. > > > Dennis Boone wrote: >>>> AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) >> >>> UART, I think. I know I've run into that number somewhere before. >> >> If the 14411 is a baud rate generator, then this must be a uart, >> especially as now that I look at the traces, the puzzling 8-pack >> switches 1-5 go right to it. > > (Yes, the AY-5-1013 is a hardware/switch/pin-configured UART. Can supply pinout > if needed.) Hi I've got the pinout someplace as well. These were used on almost all the early serial cards ( serial/parallel ) used on Altairs and IMSAIs. I have one in my IMSAI. I liked them because they required no software init other than to clear the port. The pinout is all one needs to use these. The software is obvious from the pin names. Even the status bits are from pins. I think the SMS version started with COMxxxx. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 08:58:52 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 06:58:52 -0700 Subject: 32 sector 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <200803121803.m2CI3KJ0066049@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:55:19 -0400 > From: jeffj at panix.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: 32 sector 8 inch floppies > > I just found a box of about 15: 8 inch floppies > 32 sectors (hard sectored) Double Sided Single Density. > Some are TDK F1-H > Any takers? > > I'm in Elizabeth (central) NJ: they're free if you can pick them up! Hi I use this type of disk on my Nicolet. I'd be willing to pay shipping if you can't find a local taker. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 09:23:36 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:23:36 -0500 Subject: D-shell hole punches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D938E8.4060403@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > When I needed to cut a D-connector hole in a plastic blanking panel, with > the ocnnector mounted from the back (so it had to be pretty neat), I did > use a 'spare' PC beacket. I clamped it to the panel I wanted to make the > hole in, and drilled the connector mounting holes. Then fixed the 2 parts > together through said hoels and used the bracket to guide a drill bit > round the areal I wanted to cut out (the metal is so much harder than the > plstic that this worked very well). Been there, done that. Note that modern PC blanking plates aren't quite as robust as the thick steel ones of old :-) For some homebrew stuff, if I'm just dealing with one connector, I've been known to cut out a rectangular section from a suitable scrap panel with the relevant D-hole in it. Bolting that rectangular section to whatever I'm building still looks neat, and takes a lot less time. cheers Jules From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Mar 13 09:45:24 2008 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:45:24 -0400 Subject: HP-21xx assembly In-Reply-To: <47D8BC11.6000407@Rikers.org> References: <47D8BC11.6000407@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200803131445.m2DEjPsq023100@mail.bcpl.net> On 12 Mar 2008 at 23:30, Tim Riker wrote: > Is there a pdf version of jeff's asmref.html? It appears to be HP P/N 02116-9014, "HP Assembler Programmer's Reference Manual." That's available from: http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3561 (August 1975) and: http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3575 (June 1971) > I'm looking for docs on the REL tape format(s) to add support to asm21.pl Appendix H of the "RTE IV Assembler Reference Manual" documents the relocatable and absolute tape formats. It's available from: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/rteIV/92067-90003_Asm_Apr80.pdf Note that an "old relocatable" and a "new relocatable" format exist. The former is used for all systems up through RTE-6/VM. The new format is used for RTE-6/VM and RTE-A. -- Dave From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 10:07:41 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Manual/Docs/Help for Micro-Term Ergo 201? In-Reply-To: <47D8C92D.9040509@msu.edu> Message-ID: <786953.89462.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Josh Dersch wrote: > > Paxton Hoag wrote: > > I think there is a battery inside that saves the > settings. Early > > terminals had them soldered on the Planar board. > You probably need to > > replace that. > That's what I would have thought, too, but there > isn't any battery that > I can see on the PCB (nor does it look like there > has ever been one). > Were there other methods for storing settings aside > from battery-backed ram? Yes. A lot of the later terminals used NVRAM of some sort. Each terminal has a "method" for writing to this NVRAM. Typically you have to hold down a couple of keys in setup, or while exiting. Some even had a menu option to write the settings. Set power-up defaults, save and exit, that sort of thing. Each terminal is a little different - I'm in no way familiar with the Micro-Term though. You'll have to play with it if you can't find a manual. What does the terminal look like? Perhaps it was a rebadged Boundless or something. -Ian From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 13 10:13:14 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:13:14 -0500 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) Message-ID: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> -------Original Message: Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 04:35:01 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch On Thursday 13 March 2008 05:25, Brent Hilpert wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > Anybody know who made those parts with numbers like AY-n-nnnn? I don't > > think I have much data on those offhand. > > General Instrument. Often there's a "GI" logo on their chips. Ah yes. Vague recollections were nudging me in that direction... :-) > Dennis Boone wrote: > > > > AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) > > > > > > UART, I think. I know I've run into that number somewhere before. > > > > If the 14411 is a baud rate generator, then this must be a uart, > > especially as now that I look at the traces, the puzzling 8-pack > > switches 1-5 go right to it. > > (Yes, the AY-5-1013 is a hardware/switch/pin-configured UART. Can supply > pinout if needed.) That may be why I was recalling that number. The other one of those being what, a 6402 or similar? I'm thinking Standard Microsystems, for which I do have a databook someplace though I haven't seen it in ages. ----------Reply: Yes, those AA-N-NNNN numbers are GI; they made 6 or 7 versions of that UART, some dual-voltage PMOS and some 5V-only versions. The 6402 (Intersil, Harris etc.) was a pin-compatible 5V CMOS version. I've got a pretty complete set of GI datasheets, including their funky game chips etc. if anyone needs any info. m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 13 10:25:25 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:25:25 -0600 Subject: Z80 emulator in perl In-Reply-To: References: <20080313105131.GA30309@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <5f7d1b0e0803130626g54890ce3xe77fd3a7539ebc5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D94765.4080804@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Buckle wrote: > I'm definately in the "stunned" category myself. Whoda thunk it? :) > Congrats! > Now, who is going to do one in INTERCAL? :) Well I think the fact that standard card punches and readers are *NOT* a PC product, I think INTERCAL will have to be placed on the back burner. > g. What Did IBM plan to replace CARDS with in the late 70's? The PC was just a fluke of marketing? From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Mar 13 10:53:05 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:53:05 -0600 Subject: HP-21xx assembly In-Reply-To: <200803131445.m2DEjPsq023100@mail.bcpl.net> References: <47D8BC11.6000407@Rikers.org> <200803131445.m2DEjPsq023100@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <47D94DE1.4060703@Rikers.org> J. David Bryan wrote: > On 12 Mar 2008 at 23:30, Tim Riker wrote: > >> Is there a pdf version of jeff's asmref.html? > > It appears to be HP P/N 02116-9014, "HP Assembler Programmer's Reference > Manual." That's available from: > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3561 (August 1975) > > and: > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3575 (June 1971) Excellent. Thanx! >> I'm looking for docs on the REL tape format(s) to add support to asm21.pl > > Appendix H of the "RTE IV Assembler Reference Manual" documents the > relocatable and absolute tape formats. It's available from: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/rteIV/92067-90003_Asm_Apr80.pdf Again, exactly what I was after. Thanx! > Note that an "old relocatable" and a "new relocatable" format exist. The > former is used for all systems up through RTE-6/VM. The new format is used > for RTE-6/VM and RTE-A. The mentioned pdf only covers the old format then, correct? Where can I find docs on the new format? -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 10:55:14 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:55:14 -0700 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> References: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:13:14 -0500 > Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) > > -------Original Message: > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 04:35:01 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Subject: Re: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch > > > On Thursday 13 March 2008 05:25, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: >>> Anybody know who made those parts with numbers like AY-n-nnnn? I don't >>> think I have much data on those offhand. >> >> General Instrument. Often there's a "GI" logo on their chips. > > Ah yes. Vague recollections were nudging me in that direction... :-) > >> Dennis Boone wrote: >>>>> AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) >>>> >>>> UART, I think. I know I've run into that number somewhere before. >>> >>> If the 14411 is a baud rate generator, then this must be a uart, >>> especially as now that I look at the traces, the puzzling 8-pack >>> switches 1-5 go right to it. >> >> (Yes, the AY-5-1013 is a hardware/switch/pin-configured UART. Can supply >> pinout if needed.) > > That may be why I was recalling that number. The other one of those being > what, a 6402 or similar? I'm thinking Standard Microsystems, for which I > do have a databook someplace though I haven't seen it in ages. > > ----------Reply: > Yes, those AA-N-NNNN numbers are GI; they made 6 or 7 versions of that > UART, some dual-voltage PMOS and some 5V-only versions. > > The 6402 (Intersil, Harris etc.) was a pin-compatible 5V CMOS version. > > I've got a pretty complete set of GI datasheets, including their funky game > chips etc. if anyone needs any info. > > m > Hi Pinout and data sheet for the StandardMicrosystems is on Al's bitsaver: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/standardMicrosystems/_dataBooks/1985_StandardMicrosystems.pdf Go to page 91 for com2017. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 13 11:41:12 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:41:12 -0600 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> References: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> Message-ID: <47D95928.9040808@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > Yes, those AA-N-NNNN numbers are GI; they made 6 or 7 versions of that > UART, some dual-voltage PMOS and some 5V-only versions. > > The 6402 (Intersil, Harris etc.) was a pin-compatible 5V CMOS version. But not quite 100% functional. I think in some stand alone designs I seen on the web you still need the Gi chip. > I've got a pretty complete set of GI datasheets, including their funky game > chips etc. if anyone needs any info. Bring PONG back to life. :) > m Ben alias Woodelf PS. reminds me of a old dos shareware game, that also had PONG on watch as gimic. From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Mar 13 11:42:44 2008 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:42:44 -0400 Subject: HP-21xx assembly In-Reply-To: <47D94DE1.4060703@Rikers.org> References: <47D8BC11.6000407@Rikers.org>, <200803131445.m2DEjPsq023100@mail.bcpl.net>, <47D94DE1.4060703@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200803131642.m2DGgjNB018937@mail.bcpl.net> On 13 Mar 2008 at 9:53, Tim Riker wrote: > The mentioned pdf only covers the old format then, correct? Correct. All systems (BCS, DOS, RTE) on all machines (211x, 2100, 1000 MEF) supported the old relocatable format. The new format was introduced with RTE-A on the 1000 A-Series and was back-ported to the 1000 E/F with later revisions of RTE-6/VM. > Where can I find docs on the new format? Try: http://www.hp.com/products1/rte/tech_support/documentation/ ...and pick up the "MACRO/1000 Reference Manual" that's listed under "RTE-A Operating system manuals." Appendix H has the new (a.k.a. "extended") and old relocatable formats. -- Dave From pichotjm at free.fr Thu Mar 13 05:26:19 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:26:19 +0100 Subject: motorola boards Message-ID: <004301c884f4$adbbc5b0$2601a8c0@JM3800> Hi Alain! I have a lot of document describing the Exorcizer, with complete drawings, software, firmware... I still have a complete machine (a wrapped clone, i designed in this old time! two versions: one with 64k cmos RAM, and one 64k with DynRam) I knew very well 6800, 6300, 6801, 6301, ... In that time i created a real time emulator for these uP. But the system is old and needs to be restored. (I have a lot of spare parts, including 4 8" floppy mechanisms) . I intend to publish the story of this home brew computer, but i need time... (CPU, terminal, graphic printer, digital cassette, floppies, magnetic card reader B7400, Eprom prog) This machine is aslo able to run original OS9 with a 6809/6309 cpu. I have doc, 8" floppies, listings... too much matter... that needs to be sorted. Follow-up in french? Still in Bordeaux? Have a nice day! JMP From pichotjm at free.fr Thu Mar 13 05:51:36 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:51:36 +0100 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) Message-ID: <004701c884f8$35ed2930$2601a8c0@JM3800> |pichotjm wrote: |> method? In France, collectors prefer to discuss in newsgroups |> (fr.comp.ordinosaures)Have a nice day!JMP |Sadly my ISP doesn't carry that newsgroup (fr.comp.os.* is |all they seem to have!). |Antonio Hi, Be carefull! fr.comp.ordinosaures is in french.The best way for you, would be to subscribe to the news server Astraweb.com. You will have to pay a one time fee of about $9 (6 euros), and with that subscriptionyou are authorized to download 25 GB of data. (valid for your life!)A second way is to subscribe with Teranews or Bubbanews. The one time fee will be $3.95. And you were able to download 50 MB/day. (valid for your life!) but i dont know if you will have a problem at the first connection: the list of NG can be very heavy (more than 50 MB).I subscribed to all three. Without any problems. I do same subscriptions for friends (10 to 15 times)Just one small problem with Teranews, they correct within 10 mn! (note I live in France and they are in USA!)JMP From elromano1989 at wp.pl Thu Mar 13 11:27:21 2008 From: elromano1989 at wp.pl (roman.frankowski) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:27:21 +0100 Subject: TI-74 S calculator Message-ID: <001401c88527$1d8cbac0$56cf1653@f5c88a79fc4c14> Hello !!! I've got a calculator TI-74 S, and I don't have a instruction of this calculator. So, can You sent in my mail all about TI-74 S??? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Mar 13 12:02:02 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:02:02 -0300 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) References: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> <47D95928.9040808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <011801c8852c$b203d530$f0fea8c0@portajara> >> I've got a pretty complete set of GI datasheets, including their funky >> game chips etc. if anyone needs any info. > Bring PONG back to life. :) I have some of these chips in my home. I got them at Jameco years ago, was something like $1,99. Still waiting to become THE pong toy :oD From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 13 12:35:42 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:35:42 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? Message-ID: <47D965EE.7080208@bitsavers.org> I just put the user's and manager's guide for DECnet/E V2 on bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsts/DECnetE This was all I was able to come up with from the DEC archive at CHM. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 13 13:50:07 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:50:07 -0800 Subject: HP-21xx assembly References: <47D8BC11.6000407@Rikers.org> <200803131445.m2DEjPsq023100@mail.bcpl.net> <47D94DE1.4060703@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <47D9775F.D8FA385D@cs.ubc.ca> Tim Riker wrote: > > J. David Bryan wrote: > > >> I'm looking for docs on the REL tape format(s) to add support to asm21.pl > > > > Appendix H of the "RTE IV Assembler Reference Manual" documents the > > relocatable and absolute tape formats. It's available from: > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/rteIV/92067-90003_Asm_Apr80.pdf > > Again, exactly what I was after. Thanx! Thanks too, I've also been curious to see a definition of the REL format, to decode a tape that came with my 2116. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 13 13:13:50 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:13:50 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? In-Reply-To: <47D965EE.7080208@bitsavers.org> References: <47D965EE.7080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 10:35 AM -0700 3/13/08, Al Kossow wrote: >I just put the user's and manager's guide for DECnet/E V2 on >bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsts/DECnetE > >This was all I was able to come up with from the DEC archive at CHM. I think that V2 is all I have at CBHRC, although I think we have more than just those two manuals for RSTS/E. I believe we also have a complete set of RSTS/E V9 doc's minus the Admin manual. If I remember correctly, this set of manuals came from the same place Tim got most of the RSTS/E tapes from, he got the tapes and I got the manuals. A few years ago when I had time to mess with this I was able to get the following working under E11: RT-11 5.4 with TCP/IP RSX-11M 4.2 with DECnet RSX-11M+ 4.6 with DECnet RSX-11M+ 4.6 with TCP/IP But try as I could, I couldn't get DECnet/E to install under RSTS/E 9.6 or 10.1. SIMH has matured a lot since then, at that time it was just getting networking support, and the best I could do was to get RT-11 with TCP/IP to partially work. It took me a year or two to even get DECnet/E working on my PDP-11/73 under RSTS/E 10.1, the trick finally turned out to be I *HAD* to install from a TK50, it seems to be the one thing that can't be installed from a 4mm DAT tape. Then I had serious problems with a flakey 10/100 switch on my network. DECnet/E is very temperamental. Since then on one or two *COLD* days I've had my /73 running RSTS/E on HECnet. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 13:45:14 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:45:14 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? In-Reply-To: References: <47D965EE.7080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90803131145l3acbff64mc672807156b9453a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > It took me a year or two to even get DECnet/E working on my PDP-11/73 > under RSTS/E 10.1, the trick finally turned out to be I *HAD* to > install from a TK50, it seems to be the one thing that can't be > installed from a 4mm DAT tape. I haven't tried a 4mm DAT tape yet, but I was able to install DECnet/E 4.1 from an 8mm tape using an EXB-8200 SCSI tape drive connected to a TTi (Transitional Technology Inc) QTS-3 SCSI TMSCP controller to verify that that drive and controller combination works with real DEC software. I initially thought that drive and / or controller combination was not working correctly as I could never get 2.11BSD installed using it. Now I think it is something in the 2.11BSD installation tape 'boot' binary that probably has some TMSCP assumptions that are not always true on all controllers. I had the same problem with 2.11BSD using a CQD-200/T (aka MTI QTS30) controller, while a CMD CQD-220/TM worked fine. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 13 13:27:18 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:27:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <200803130029.m2D0TNkW019591@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Mar 12, 8 08:29:23 pm Message-ID: > Tony, > > Here's a rough list of what's on the board: > > Part no 1140 68 10-00 > > AY-5-1013 40 pin dip (cpu?) That's a dumb UART. Dumb meaning it doesn't need a microprocessor to control it, there are seprarte sets of pins for the transmit and receive parallel chracters, pins ot set the word length, parity, etc. > MC14411P 24 pin dip (uart?) Baud rate generator. > 1489 line driver Receiver, actually, It'll take the RS232 input and turn it into TTL levels. > 27 assorted 7400 series > Various discretes, including 17 large transistors/regulators > 8 wire jumpers labelled 1-8 > Wire jumper labelled ERR > Place for wire jumper labelled TL TL probably means 'tape low'. This is detected by a reed swtich and magnet, and this jumper might bring that signal out to an RS232 pin or something. > Large chrome toggle switch labelled SER/PAR/SERIAL WITH ERROR CODE on > card edge (missed the labeling on this earlier) > DB25 on card edge > 8-switch dip pack labelled bit1-bit8 error code IIRC these Facit serial board have the festure that if they detect an error (parity, framing, etc) on the incoming character, they then punch a special 'error code character' in place of it. I susepct these switches set what that character is > 4-switch dip pack unlabelled I really can't help with that one. > 5-switch dip pack labelled with baud rates 75-600 I suspect you can only have one switch turned on at a time. It'll select the appropriate output from the baud rate generator. Note that 600 baud ~ 60 characters/second. Since the Facit 4070 is rated to punch 75cps, it'll keep up with a 600 baud data stream without needing any flow control. That's why there aren't settings for faster baud rates here. > 8-switch dip pack labelled as follows: > 1. PARITY Maybe eneable parity checking on the incoming data stream > 2. 1STOP Number of stop bits (1 or 2) > 3. NB 2 > 4. NB 1 Number of data bits (5..8) > 5. ODD CH Maybe odd.even parity select for the incoming parity check. I usspect those 5 switchs go to pins on the UART, possibly with minimal logic in between, but most likely not. It'd be worth tracing them and getting a data sheet on any of the dumb 40 pin UARTs (there are all much the same!) and see what the switches control > 6. BIT 8 > 7. / EVEN > GEN > 8. \ ODD I suepct those are interrelated, and set what will be punched in track 8 of the tape. Either incoming it 8 (which is what you most likely want) or odd/even parity _generated_ from the other 7 its. > > Chip dates are mostly 1978. > > The toggle switch, error code and baud rate stuff is all obvious. I can > figure out parity and 1stop by trial and error. For the rest I could > use some clues. Am I correct tyhat this board is in the lower slot of the 4070 and that there's the normal punch control board in the top slot? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 13 13:37:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:37:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Manual/Docs/Help for Micro-Term Ergo 201? In-Reply-To: <47D8C92D.9040509@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Mar 12, 8 11:26:53 pm Message-ID: > > > That's what I would have thought, too, but there isn't any battery that > I can see on the PCB (nor does it look like there has ever been one). > Were there other methods for storing settings aside from battery-backed ram? How about an EAROM? I think that's what the VT100 uses. Is there an ER1400 chip? It is, of course, possible that the battery is elsewhere in the machine. Maybe in the PSU area? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 13 13:42:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:42:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: In which I further expose my ignorance: What is this electronic In-Reply-To: <1205393929.12874.5.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Mar 13, 8 07:38:49 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 23:23 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The only thing is, I've never seen one with a polarity marking (often > > they pnly fit the PCB one way round), and they're normally larger than > > the comopneent you show. > > I'm surprised at that - they crop up in monitors a lot, usually where > they linearise (or non-linearise) scan waveforms. I think you misunderstood me. I've seen many linearity coils with permanent magnet bias -- they turn up in most monitors. In fact I just have to look on my bench now to see the monitor PCB from an HP9826 machine [1] to see one of these devices. What I have never seen is one with a '+' marking. Of coruse they're polarised (getting them the wrong way round gives an 'interesting' display). Most of the time they are physically unsymmetircal so that they either only fit the right way (a third offset pin so the PCB pads will only take the compoennt one way round) or at least you can line them up with the silk screen. [1] THis 'monitor' PCB contains the video amplifier and horizontal deflcition circuits only. The vertical yoke connections go via varios connectors to the text video PCB which also contains the vertical deflection circuit. > > The magnet gives the coil slightly different properties depending on > which way round the current flows. Exactly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 13 13:45:09 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:45:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <200803130435.01681.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Mar 13, 8 04:35:01 am Message-ID: > > (Yes, the AY-5-1013 is a hardware/switch/pin-configured UART. Can suppl= > y > > pinout if needed.) > > That may be why I was recalling that number. The other one of those bein= > g=20 > what, a 6402 or similar? I'm thinking Standard Microsystems, for which= There was the AY-3-1015, the AY-5-1013, the 6402, and the 1602, and possibly others. They are all much the same (some need a -12V supply line as well as +5V, others have that pin as N/C), the configuration signals and pinouts are the same in all cases. So finding a data sheet for one of them will help. -tony From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 13 14:23:04 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:23:04 -0400 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:27:18 -0000.) References: Message-ID: <200803131923.m2DJN4vS013414@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Am I correct tyhat this board is in the lower slot of the 4070 and that > there's the normal punch control board in the top slot? Tony, Between yours and others comments, it finally (ok, I'm slow, I admit it) dawned on me that I could get pinouts for this UART online, and that it's pin compatible with the 6402 for which more data is available. I think that gives me enough clues to work out the right settings. This is the only board in the board bay, and it's in the top slot. The unit will feed tape, raw, with feed holes, or with lace holes, so it's at least somewhat alive. De From doug at stillhq.com Thu Mar 13 14:55:21 2008 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:55:21 +1100 Subject: RL01 Terminator In-Reply-To: <200803131330.m2DDUC1t077597@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803131330.m2DDUC1t077597@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47D986A9.1090906@stillhq.com> Hi list, I am the extremely proud owner (As much as one can own a piece of history.. More like current custodian, curator, or caretaker) of a wonderful PDP11/04 and RL01 drive. I am looking for either; 1) Two RL01/02 terminators, or 2) The schematic diagram for what is in a terminator (and possibly a faulty cable to use the connectors from) Having trawled the web, I can't find the appropriate schematic :-( Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 13 15:27:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <200803131923.m2DJN4vS013414@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Mar 13, 8 03:23:04 pm Message-ID: > This is the only board in the board bay, and it's in the top slot. The Very interesting. The older Facit 4070s (including all the ones I've every worked on) have a pounch cotnrol/PSU board in the top slot. It has a parallel interface. The interface connnections are wired to one side of the bottom edge connector, the other side of that connector is wired to the DB25 socket on the back of the machine. Normally there's a bridging board in that lower connector, so you get he parallel interfavce brought out there, but Facit also made an RS232 board (which is, of course, used along with the control/PSU board) that went in there, some other companies made custom boards for their own interfaces (HP was one such). If yuor RS23 board is the only one in the machine, then it must drive the punch solenoids and the stepper motor directly. That would explain all the power transistors on said board. > unit will feed tape, raw, with feed holes, or with lace holes, so it's > at least somewhat alive. And I've had another thought. With the units I'm familiar with, the 'Code Holes' button can be set to punch any character on the tape. 'Lace Holes' (0xFF) is the common one, but there are links on the cotnrol board to set it. I remember there being 8 unknown links on your comined interface/control board, maybe they have that function. -tony From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 13 15:52:02 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:52:02 -0700 Subject: RL01 Terminator References: <200803131330.m2DDUC1t077597@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47D986A9.1090906@stillhq.com> Message-ID: From: "Doug Jackson" > 2) The schematic diagram for what is in a terminator (and possibly a > faulty cable to use the connectors from) > > Having trawled the web, I can't find the appropriate schematic :-( Here's a pointer to a description that started a cctalk thread back in 2002: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2002-August/005182.html Vince From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Mar 13 16:13:28 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:13:28 +0000 Subject: of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <200803111800.m2BI0Hc1052015@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803111800.m2BI0Hc1052015@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <130D31AB-6CAE-48D2-8E94-DBDC36C16502@microspot.co.uk> > > From: "pichotjm" > > I spent my week-end to write a report on the restoration of the > early French > computer ODP-505. This computer is built with germanium transistors > and has > a core memory. Thank you that is very interesting. I have looked on the 'Big List' to find the date it was first sold but could not find it. Google only brings up pages in the French language. Could you please give us the year? It is tiny compared with my Germanium machine (ICT 1301) which weighs five tons. It has the same clock speed but is quite a bit slower, so I guess it is earlier than mine. But maybe the emphasis of the design was miniaturisation and the designers traded speed for size. Roger Holmes (Kent, England) From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Mar 13 17:17:34 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:17:34 -0600 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: <8E8FF5A2-B710-4AD5-B5C6-03EBDAB2FC24@xlisper.com> References: <47D04517.7010509@Rikers.org> <47D04B63.3030100@Rikers.org> <8E8FF5A2-B710-4AD5-B5C6-03EBDAB2FC24@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <47D9A7FE.2060102@Rikers.org> David Betz wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200205642428 > > Yeah, that's it. Thanks for the pointer! I'll watch this auction to see > if it stays at a reasonable price. congrats. :) Keep us posted on progress. What card do you have on the PC side? I'm very interested to hear your progress. I've been watching for a good cheap hp-ib pci or usb adapter, but I've not picked one up yet. Can't seem to find a good _and_ cheap one. :) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Mar 13 17:30:30 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:30:30 -0400 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> References: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> Message-ID: <200803131830.31115.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 13 March 2008 11:13, M H Stein wrote: > I've got a pretty complete set of GI datasheets, including their funky game > chips etc. if anyone needs any info. Maybe I oughta get a list from you and see about adding them to the pile. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 13 19:10:10 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:10:10 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? In-Reply-To: References: <47D965EE.7080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 11:13 AM -0700 3/13/08, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I think that V2 is all I have at CBHRC, although I think we have >more than just those two manuals for RSTS/E. I believe we also have >a complete set of >RSTS/E V9 doc's minus the Admin manual. If I remember correctly, >this set of manuals came from the same place Tim got most of the >RSTS/E tapes from, he got the tapes and I got the manuals. I was just up in the "Stacks", and we have Volumes 1-4 (we might have one other volume still in my possession). It looks like Al scanned Volume 4. We have the V2 doc's. This makes me wonder if they released a newer set of Doc's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 13 19:25:41 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:25:41 -0500 Subject: Cardboard Computer: Cardiac! New-Old-Stock Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080313190249.0d447330@localhost> Imagine my delight upon learning that there is NOS available of CARDIAC: Cardboard Illustrated Aid to Computing, the Bell Labs fold-flat computer that taught me so much about assembly language computing. Hurrah! In 1961, Bell introduced four kits to aid science education at the high school level. In 1968, they made a fifth kit available, called CARDIAC. Get 'em while their hot-- stock won't last long. I don't think these prices are accurate anymore, there's an email address for inquiries, since the company is going out of business. CARDIAC, $19.29, and Vu-Graph for CARDIAC $22.95. I have no idea what a VuGraph might be and don't think I've ever seen one. But I still have my trusty CARDIAC, given to me by my 5th grade teacher at the end of the year. http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/11/newold-stock-of-bell.html http://www.porticus.org/bell/belllabs_kits.html ----- 189. [Commentary] "Television has changed the American child from in irresistible force into an immovable object." --Laurence J. Peter --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Mar 13 20:15:35 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Massive lot of vintage hard drives Message-ID: The Great Vintage Disk Drive Jubilee!! I have a friend in town (Shrikant Desai, some of you may have seen his talk at VCFX last year) who has a huge collection of vintage to modern disk drives, including floppy and hard, magnetic and optical, 14", 8", 5.25", 3.5", 2", etc. His collection of drives numbers in the hundreds, possibly breaking the 1,000 barrier (everytime I turn a corner at his house I find a new stash, and he has other stashes around town). His informal goal was to create a comprehensive archive of every drive ever made. He thinks he has attained about 60% of that goal. There is definitely overlap and duplicate units.B Alas, Shrikant is getting on in years and no longer has the time or energy to maintain the collection. We had been trying to jointly start a computer museum in town to feature a conglomeration of my and his collections, but because of time and budgetary constraints we reluctantly abandoned the idea (for now at least). So Shrikant has decided to divest himself of his drive collection. The collection was a typical pack-rat pursuit, borne out of intellectual curiosity as well as an inherent urge to archive stuff for posterity. Shrikant has worked for almost every disk drive manufacturer from the 1960s through to current day in one form or another. For example, back in the 1970s and 1980s he was Directory of Technology Development at Shugart. The Computer History Museum already came out and took a few boxes of materials away (mostly documentation) so we're left with a huge pile of metal. Shrikant asked me to help disburse the remainder. At first I was thinking purely scrap, as my mindset these days is hued by my electronic recycling business (don't worry, nothing vintage/classic gets scrapped) and a great majority of the collection is modernish drives (MFM and IDE) but then I started to realize these are drives that other collectors may find useful to get or keep their vintage systems running, especially the older and rarer ones. If it hadn't been for the trouble I had trying to find a working ST-225 for an IBM PC 5150 I put together recently for a project I may not have given this the consideration it deserves. I came to the realization that it's hard to find working vintage hard drives these days, which is kind of a "duh" realization since that's pretty much a given. So, in the interest of helping both Shrikant and fellow collectors, I decided it would serve everyone's interest to offer the drives up for sale. I've set up a special request form here: http://www.vintage.org/special/2008/diskdrive.php On this form you are asked to enter your name, e-mail address, the drive(s) you are seeking, and the price you are willing to pay. The way this will work is we will give time for people to submit requests, say a couple weeks, then we're going to start going through the drives and identifying ones that have been requested. We'll try to determine if the drive is good or not using simple tests (i.e. visual inspection, shaking, and other highly technical considerations), but this will by no means guarantee the drive is working. This will be an "as-is" sale, so make your offer accordingly. We are not seeking huge sums here, just enough to cover time. If you want a known good drive, please note this in the request and make sure your offer takes into consideration the time and skill required to find a proper host machine, hook everything together, then run diagnostics, etc. It took me 22 hours to build the 5150 referenced above, a large portion of which was spent locating, testing, and troubleshooting a working ST-225. If you want to pay only $20 for a known working hard drive, that's not going to fly. Really, all I want to do is find the drive you're looking for, package it, then ship it to you. If you want a known good drive, we will have to discuss it as a consulting project, and I'm not cheap (and niether is Shrikant). Also, between you, I, and the mailing list, Shrikant could really use the money right now. Shipping costs (actual, via Fedex Ground) will be added to your offer. We will need to collect from you before we ship out the drive. PayPal is best, checks sent to me are fine. We'll discuss the details further when the time comes. The reason I want you to use the form and not to e-mail me a request is because my inbox already has 1,500 mostly unanswered e-mails in it and I tend to "lose" messages amid the deluge (I periodically try to knock down the backlog and at one point had it down to less than 1,200 but it has gained on me in recent weeks). So it would behoove you to use the form to make your request since that will be easier for me to manage and track. Do feel free to e-mail me directly if you have a question that can't be entered into the form but please keep in mind that I'm so busy these days I might not be able to respond right away. PLEASE NOTE: I do not follow the CC list regularly. I am subscribed but have delivery turned off. I scan the archives periodically to see what's being discussed but don't have time to actively participate. That being said, please send any relevant replies or inquiries to me directly, not to the list, or else there's a good chance I won't read it. Lastly, I'm sure I'm missing some details or something, so I'll follow up once I've had a number of people e-mail me asking me for obvious information that I've neglected to include here. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 13 21:04:52 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:04:52 -0400 Subject: Morrow documentation In-Reply-To: <200803131659.m2DGx6VZ080599@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803131659.m2DGx6VZ080599@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000601c88577$cb2fa980$6500a8c0@barry> Re: "CHM received a bunch of George Morrow's engineering documentation yesterday. Is there anything in particular from MD that hasn't already been scanned that people are looking for?" Yes; there are some Morrow / Thinker Toys memory boards that have never appeared anywhere, not even Herb has them in his files (and the boards do exist, I have some of these). Because they are "Thinker Toys", I'm not sure if they would be in what you received or not. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 13 21:08:34 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:08:34 -0400 Subject: 32 sector 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <200803131659.m2DGx6VZ080599@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803131659.m2DGx6VZ080599@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000701c88578$4f5c06e0$6500a8c0@barry> Re: "I just found a box of about 15: 8 inch floppies 32 sectors (hard sectored) Double Sided Single Density. Some are TDK F1-H. Any takers?" These are used in the Processor Technology Helios disk system (intended for, but not really specific to, the SOL-20 computer). I have what might be the last two such operational systems in existence, and I have to say that carefully because they have not been powered since 2004, when they were working and booting PT-DOS. However I have several boxes of the diskettes and don't really need more. From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Mar 13 21:15:17 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:15:17 -0400 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: <47D9A7FE.2060102@Rikers.org> References: <47D04517.7010509@Rikers.org> <47D04B63.3030100@Rikers.org> <8E8FF5A2-B710-4AD5-B5C6-03EBDAB2FC24@xlisper.com> <47D9A7FE.2060102@Rikers.org> Message-ID: > David Betz wrote: >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200205642428 >> >> Yeah, that's it. Thanks for the pointer! I'll watch this auction to >> see >> if it stays at a reasonable price. > > congrats. :) > > Keep us posted on progress. What card do you have on the PC side? I'm > very interested to hear your progress. I've been watching for a good > cheap hp-ib pci or usb adapter, but I've not picked one up yet. > > Can't seem to find a good _and_ cheap one. :) I don't have a card for the PC side yet. As you say, there don't seem to be any reasonably priced PCI cards. I've been thinking of buying an ISA card to use with an old Win98 machine I keep around. I've seen ISA cards pretty cheap on eBay. I'm also looking for an HP-IB floppy drive. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 22:27:09 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:27:09 -0700 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: <200803131830.31115.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C884F2.F59B3200@mandr71> <200803131830.31115.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi I posted this but I guess I'll post it again: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/standardMicrosystems/_dataBooks/1985_StandardMicrosystems.pdf AY-5-1013A = AMI S1883 = COM2017 page 91 AY-5-1013 = COM2502 page 91 AY-5-1015A = AMI S6850 = Fairchild F6860 = Harris HM6402 = Intesil IM6402 = COM8017 page 161 AY-5-1015 = Harris HM6403 = Intersil IM6403 = COM8502 page 161 Difference between A and non-A is number of stop bits. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From marvin at west.net Fri Mar 14 00:59:26 2008 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:59:26 -0700 Subject: OT? Google Checkout Message-ID: <47DA143E.69394885@west.net> I was checking out the Vintage Computer listings at http://www.onlineauctions.com, and noticed a number of listings accepting Google checkout. Has anyone had any experience/comments using it, and is it worth signing up for? I'm looking at putting up some listings there since VCM is down, so I am rather curious if offering it helps. From doug at stillhq.com Fri Mar 14 06:39:43 2008 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:39:43 +1100 Subject: PDP 11/04 -> 11/34 Conversion In-Reply-To: <200803131330.m2DDUC1t077597@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803131330.m2DDUC1t077597@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47DA63FF.3070503@stillhq.com> I have recently become the proud owner of a PDP-11/04 with a set of 11/34 cards (M8266 & M8265) This particular 11/04 has some stuff on an extension backplane that I don't understand: PDP11/04-LH configuration UNIBUS layout: A B C D E F M7263 M7263 M7263 M7263 M7263 M7263 1 M7891 M7891 M7891 M7891 M7891 M7891 2 blank blank blank GRANT blank blank 3 M9312 M9312 M7859 M7859 M7859 M7859 4 M7762 M7762 M7762 M7762 M7762 M7762 5 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 6 blank blank blank GRANT blank blank 7 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 8 M920 M920 blank GRANT blank blank 9 ------------------------------------10 M920 M920 M7219 M7219 M7219 M7219 11 (- M9688A-) M208 M208 M7821 M796 12 PWR M205 M611 M611 M112 M113 13 M9302 M9302 blank blank M116 M239 14 The M9688A is a very short card - titled DR11-B Test Board The stuff in slots 11-14 is what I have no idea about. Anyway - I also have a M8265 / M8266 pair that I would like to use to upgrade to 11/34A if possible. To do that - I suspect that the config changes to: A B C D E F M8266 M8266 M8266 M8266 M8266 M8266 1 M8265 M8265 M8265 M8265 M8265 M8265 2 M7891 M7891 M7891 M7891 M7891 M7891 3 M9312 M9312 M7859 M7859 M7859 M7859 4 M7762 M7762 M7762 M7762 M7762 M7762 5 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 6 blank blank blank GRANT blank blank 7 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 M7856 8 M9302 M9302 blank blank M116 M239 9 ------------------------------------10 The removal of the M920 should mean that the extension is effectively disconnected. blank blank M7219 M7219 M7219 M7219 11 (- M9688A-) M208 M208 M7821 M796 12 PWR M205 M611 M611 M112 M113 13 M9302 M9302 blank blank M116 M239 14 Any help from an expert would be appreciated. Doug From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 14 09:59:57 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:59:57 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? Message-ID: <47DA92ED.6070704@bitsavers.org> > I was just up in the "Stacks", and we have Volumes 1-4 http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/rstsdoc/ has most of the base RSTS/E documentation Is there any way to get the other three volumes of the DECnet material scanned? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 14 10:02:25 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:02:25 -0700 Subject: Cardboard Computer: Cardiac! New-Old-Stock Message-ID: <47DA9381.8080706@bitsavers.org> the company is going out of business. on March 21 ----- See our price list attached Kit #5 is $12.95 S&H is $10.00. If your shipping address is a business or a school then S&H $8.50 S&H will change slightly with larger quanitity. We also will discount orders of 5 or more by 10%. We accept only personal checks or money orders. Our last business day will be March 21st 2008. Phillip Dixon COMSPACE CORP. 117 ENGINEERS DRIVE HICKSVILLE, LONG ISLAND NEW YORK 11801 516-942-8191 VOICE 516-942-8193 FAX From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 14 10:11:29 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:11:29 -0700 Subject: Morrow documentation Message-ID: <47DA95A1.3070502@bitsavers.org> > Because they are "Thinker Toys", I'm not sure > if they would be in what you received or not. We have some docs back to the PACE system he did with Godbout up through the portable for Zenith. We only appear to have gotten what John didn't think he could sell (some of which I had to buy last year for more money than I wanted to spend). There are only pasteups for the manuals, for example, and no finished manuals. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 14 10:19:29 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:19:29 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/04 -> 11/34 Conversion Message-ID: <47DA9781.6090808@bitsavers.org> > This particular 11/04 has some stuff on an extension backplane that I > don't understand It is an RC11 controller for an RS11 fixed head disk. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 14 10:57:42 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eliza author passed away last week... In-Reply-To: <47DA92ED.6070704@bitsavers.org> References: <47DA92ED.6070704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23615538/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From rollerton at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 11:33:27 2008 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:33:27 -0500 Subject: Eliza author passed away last week... In-Reply-To: References: <47DA92ED.6070704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2789adda0803140933h17a1e737r193b9beb3977a33e@mail.gmail.com> I was just talking about Eliza with a freind of mine the other day, we were wondering if it was still around, if we had somehow saved the source (I think it was Fortran IV) from our Xerox Sigma work in the 70s, etc. I never knew of the author and his background, he must have been an interesting and fun person to know. Thanks for passing this on. b. On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23615538/ > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 14 14:12:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:12:25 -0700 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: <200803141800.m2EI0B7D097423@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803141800.m2EI0B7D097423@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47DA6BA9.7709.3CF8B11@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:27:09 -0700 > From: dwight elvey > Hi > I posted this but I guess I'll post it again: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/standardMicrosystems/_dataBooks/1985_Standard > Microsystems.pdf > > AY-5-1013A = AMI S1883 = COM2017 page 91 > > AY-5-1013 = COM2502 page 91 Also WD TR1402, Signetics 2536 and TI TMS6011 IIRC, the 1013 was also used in the TV Typewriter. A very common sub for the 1013/1013a was the WD TR1602/1402. Thedifference between the 1402 and 1602 was that the 1602 can generate 1.5 stop bits; not so with the 1402. The TI TMS6011 is likewise a non-A (1 or 2, but not 1.5 stop bits) equivalent. Also the Signetics 2536. If you need a 5v only version, try the Fujitsu MB8868A or SMC COM8017 or COM8502. Same pinout and functionality. Cheers, Chuck From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Mar 14 17:52:48 2008 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:52:48 +0000 Subject: compaq portable plus problems In-Reply-To: <938600c8b76450268fe9016deb9175b3@mac.com> References: <47A39157.9030300@bitsavers.org> <004601c86607$fb4a8bb0$f1dfa310$@com> <938600c8b76450268fe9016deb9175b3@mac.com> Message-ID: Just an update on this problem i was having. I obtained another WD MFM card with LL format program, formated the original Rodime and all is working. It seems the problem was with the Compaq controler. Thanks for your help guys Roger On 3 Feb 2008, at 15:52, Roger Pugh wrote: > Hi guys > > does anyone know the correct incantation to low level format an MFM > drive, a rodime 351, driven by a Compaq controller board. > > I,ve tried with debug G=C800:5 to no avail. there is no format > program there!. > The driver board has no real description on it, just > > Compaq computer corp 1983 and assy 61-031074-00 > > Any ideas??? > > thanks > > roger > From doug at stillhq.com Fri Mar 14 17:53:41 2008 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:53:41 +1100 Subject: Re RL01/02 terminator In-Reply-To: <200803141800.m2EI0B7H097423@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803141800.m2EI0B7H097423@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47DB01F5.8090907@stillhq.com> Sent to the list, because your email server reckons that I am a security or content violator... Timothy, Thanks for that - two is because I have 2 11/04 systems. At this stage, Curt from the atari museum has offered me one that will get me out of strife. If I end up being able to get both systems fully operational, I'll give you an email (probably via the list :-) ) . Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 14 17:47:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:47:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Mar 13, 8 08:27:09 pm Message-ID: > Difference between A and non-A is number of stop bits. In what way? The UARTs I am familiar with have a single pin that selects between either 1 or 2 stop bits (1 or 1.5 stop its if the word length is 5 bits). What does the other type do? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 14 17:50:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:50:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP 11/04 -> 11/34 Conversion In-Reply-To: <47DA63FF.3070503@stillhq.com> from "Doug Jackson" at Mar 14, 8 10:39:43 pm Message-ID: > ------------------------------------10 > M920 M920 M7219 M7219 M7219 M7219 11 > (- M9688A-) M208 M208 M7821 M796 12 > PWR M205 M611 M611 M112 M113 13 > M9302 M9302 blank blank M116 M239 14 > > The M9688A is a very short card - titled DR11-B Test Board > > The stuff in slots 11-14 is what I have no idea about. That's a DR11-B DMA parallel interface. It's a special 4 slot backplane (the slots are _NOT_ wired to take SPCs (small peripheral controllers), and are filled with the cards you have IIRC. The 2 blank connecotrs are, IIRC, the connections to the external device you put the test board in there (in place of the device cable) when running diagnostics. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Mar 14 18:05:57 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:05:57 -0500 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) Message-ID: <01C885FE.67CF85E0@MSE_D03> --------Original Message: Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:27:09 -0700 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) Hi I posted this but I guess I'll post it again: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/standardMicrosystems/_dataBooks/1985_StandardMicrosystems.pdf AY-5-1013A = AMI S1883 = COM2017 page 91 AY-5-1013 = COM2502 page 91 AY-5-1015A = AMI S6850 = Fairchild F6860 = Harris HM6402 = Intesil IM6402 = COM8017 page 161 AY-5-1015 = Harris HM6403 = Intersil IM6403 = COM8502 page 161 Difference between A and non-A is number of stop bits. Dwight ----------Reply: And, just to make the GI list complete: AY-3-1014A* (1) CMOS, 480kHz/30kb, AY-3-1015* (1) NMOS, 480kHz/30kb, Input pull-ups AY-5-1013 (2) PMOS, 480kHz/30kb AY-5-1013A (2) PMOS, 640kHz/40kb AY-6-1013 (2) PMOS, 360kHz/22.5kb * = 1 1/2 Stop bit capability PMOS = +5 and +12V, NMOS = +5 only Two sets of basic characteristics (1) & (2), pin compatible. m From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Mar 14 18:05:25 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:05:25 -0500 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) Message-ID: <01C885FE.66AA8DE0@MSE_D03> ---------Original Message: Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:30:30 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) On Thursday 13 March 2008 11:13, M H Stein wrote: > I've got a pretty complete set of GI datasheets, including their funky game > chips etc. if anyone needs any info. Maybe I oughta get a list from you and see about adding them to the pile. :-) ----------Reply: Well, it's a bulging 3" binder, not counting some superseded dupes, but I'll send you a scan of the index off-list for your reference. m From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 14 23:39:29 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:39:29 -0700 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: <47DA6BA9.7709.3CF8B11@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803141800.m2EI0B7D097423@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47DA6BA9.7709.3CF8B11@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> > > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:27:09 -0700> > From: dwight elvey > Hi> > I posted this but I guess I'll post it again:> > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/standardMicrosystems/_dataBooks/1985_Standard> > Microsystems.pdf> > > > AY-5-1013A = AMI S1883 = COM2017 page 91> > > > AY-5-1013 = COM2502 page 91> > Also WD TR1402, Signetics 2536 and TI TMS6011> > IIRC, the 1013 was also used in the TV Typewriter.> > A very common sub for the 1013/1013a was the WD TR1602/1402. > Thedifference between the 1402 and 1602 was that the 1602 can > generate 1.5 stop bits; not so with the 1402. The TI TMS6011 is > likewise a non-A (1 or 2, but not 1.5 stop bits) equivalent. Also > the Signetics 2536.> > If you need a 5v only version, try the Fujitsu MB8868A or SMC COM8017 > or COM8502. Same pinout and functionality.> > Cheers,> Chuck> Hi Chuck There is a xreference table on page 10 & 11.t shows all these and a few more. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 14 23:50:46 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:50:46 -0700 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: References: from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Difference between A and non-A is number of stop bits. > > In what way? The UARTs I am familiar with have a single pin that selects > between either 1 or 2 stop bits (1 or 1.5 stop its if the word length is > 5 bits). What does the other type do? > > -tony I my meant that the primary difference was that one could do 1.5 stop bits while the other could do 2. There is also the differences in supply voltages as mentioned by others. Still, as far as how they work, the data sheet in the catalog I point to is more than I've seen in other places. My IMSAI has the AMI chip. I recall programming it with just the pinouts. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 15 01:05:27 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:05:27 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? In-Reply-To: <47DA92ED.6070704@bitsavers.org> References: <47DA92ED.6070704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 7:59 AM -0700 3/14/08, Al Kossow wrote: > > I was just up in the "Stacks", and we have Volumes 1-4 > >http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/rstsdoc/ > >has most of the base RSTS/E documentation > >Is there any way to get the other three volumes of the DECnet material >scanned? At this point all of our scanning is manual, and limited to Genealogical and Historical documents. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jefferwin at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 15:03:47 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:03:47 -0800 Subject: Intel hex file loader in asm80 In-Reply-To: <200803131800.m2DI0cuF081317@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Ok, ok, I know I can just sit down and write one, but I know that a zillion of these have been written over time. I need an asm80 simple program loader that will take in the ascii stream from an intel hex file, parse it, convert the data to binary and put it in memory. The source doesn't matter, the loader portion can be from a floppy driver, paper tape reader or whatever, I can easily change the source, I would just like to not have to write all of the parsing stuff for the hex format. Anyone have any asm80 source that might include the loader portion? Jeff Erwin From jeffj at panix.com Thu Mar 13 20:37:12 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange xtal frequencies Message-ID: I have some strange frequency crystals and oscillators. Does anyone remember what "standard" they represent? 3.595295 MHz 13.824 MHz 18.72000 MHz From jeffj at panix.com Thu Mar 13 23:47:11 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 00:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange neon/plasma terminals Message-ID: Does anyone have any info or experience with either of these plasma (thin flat screen) displays/terminals? There's no keyboard: just a touch-screen and RS232 interface. Dow Jones Telerate used to use them. I'm concerned if I need to send them commands to read the touch-screen or configure it just to work. - Planar model EK IV (with touch screen added so it doesn't fold down) - Datamedia T-SLATE Thanks in advance -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj at panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide From Nopills2 at aol.com Fri Mar 14 22:43:21 2008 From: Nopills2 at aol.com (Nopills2 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:43:21 EDT Subject: Apple Scribe Printer Message-ID: But, before I get into opening it and regreasing it... I was seeing if anyone had a manual for it and can tell me what the blinking light indicates. When I turn it on, the Select Light blinks in patterns of three (three blinks, pause, three blinks, pause...). Do you still want a manual? Three blinks means there is a problem. Needs paper or print head is stuck or mosy commonly the ribbon cartridge is used up. pop the cartridge out and see if there is silver showing. If not advance the ribbon slightly and see if a silver band appears. Means you need a new ribbon. Do not try to print on the silver, willbhurt print head. **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) From ats at offog.org Sat Mar 15 05:56:28 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:56:28 +0000 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: (Jeff Jonas's message of "Thu\, 13 Mar 2008 21\:37\:12 -0400 \(EDT\)") References: Message-ID: Jeff Jonas writes: > 3.595295 MHz That's the crystal frequency used in Atari's Pong: http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/dedicated/pong_schematic.gif > 13.824 MHz 12 times 1.152 MHz, which is used as a data rate in IRDA, DECT and various other communications standards. -- Adam Sampson From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 15 09:54:43 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 07:54:43 -0700 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: ats at offog.org > > Jeff Jonas writes: > >> 3.595295 MHz TV color crystal frequncy. Any time one needs to create color display through a TV set, they'd use one of these. These are also the cheapest crystal out there since they are used in most every color TV. I see these a lot where a 4MHz would work but the controller was built with cost in mind and 3.6MHz was fast enough. Dwight > > That's the crystal frequency used in Atari's Pong: > http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/dedicated/pong_schematic.gif > >> 13.824 MHz > > 12 times 1.152 MHz, which is used as a data rate in IRDA, DECT and > various other communications standards. > > -- > Adam Sampson _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 15 11:31:11 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:31:11 -0500 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) Message-ID: <01C88690.2D34B260@mandr71> >>> Difference between A and non-A is number of stop bits. >> In what way? The UARTs I am familiar with have a single pin that selects >> between either 1 or 2 stop bits (1 or 1.5 stop its if the word length is > 5 >> bits). What does the other type do? >> > -tony I my meant that the primary difference was that one could do 1.5 > stop bits while the other could do 2. There is also the differences in supply > voltages as mentioned by others. Still, as far as how they work, the data > sheet in the catalog I point to is more than I've seen in other places. > My IMSAI has the AMI chip. I recall programming it with just the pinouts. > Dwight --------- I'm afraid I have to disagree with you again, Dwight: According to the Marketing Memo from GI announcing the discontinuation of the AY-5-1013, the -A replacement is identical except for the higher max baud rate (in fact, it is a 5-1013 that has been tested to 40kb instead of 30). The AY-3-1014A (there was no 1014) and 1015 are the two UARTS that use 1 1/2 stop bits instead of 2 in 5 bit mode. Looks like this previous post of mine didn't make it, so I'll repost it here: AY-3-1014A* CMOS, 480kHz/30kb AY-3-1015* NMOS, 480kHz/30kb AY-5-1013 PMOS, 480kHz/30kb AY-5-1013A PMOS, 640kHz/40kb AY-6-1013 PMOS, 360kHz/22.5kb * = 1 1/2 Stop bits PMOS = +5 & +12V, NMOS = +5V only m From ats at offog.org Sat Mar 15 11:06:28 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 16:06:28 +0000 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: (dwight elvey's message of "Sat\, 15 Mar 2008 07\:54\:43 -0700") References: Message-ID: dwight elvey writes: >> 3.595295 MHz > TV color crystal frequncy. No, that's 3.579545 MHz (or 4.43361875 MHz for PAL) -- this one's a bit faster than the NTSC colourburst, which presumably is what makes it unusual... Colourburst crystals do show up in quite a few computing devices, though. I built a couple of Z84C00 machines running at the PAL colourburst rate in the mid-1990s. -- Adam Sampson From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 15 11:20:58 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:20:58 -0500 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47DBF76A.2010707@oldskool.org> dwight elvey wrote: > >>> 3.595295 MHz > TV color crystal frequency. Any time one needs to create color display No, color freq is 3.579545. So that one above is a little weird (or maybe the OP mistyped it?) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 15 11:43:51 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:43:51 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E DECNET installation guides / pointers / tips? In-Reply-To: <47D965EE.7080208@bitsavers.org> References: <47D965EE.7080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200803150943.52135.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hey Al, On Thursday 13 March 2008 10:35, Al Kossow wrote: > I just put the user's and manager's guide for DECnet/E V2 on > bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsts/DECnetE > > This was all I was able to come up with from the DEC archive at > CHM. Thanks a LOT! I can use these too - I've never have got DECnet to work right with RSTS/E. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 15 14:00:56 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 12:00:56 -0700 Subject: Morrow documentation Message-ID: <47DC1CE8.8080903@bitsavers.org> > Anything on the "Decision I" S100 system would be nice. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/decision http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/cbios From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Mar 15 15:28:49 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:28:49 -0600 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <47DC1CE8.8080903@bitsavers.org> References: <47DC1CE8.8080903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <47DC3181.8070006@brutman.com> I received a TRS-80 Model 4 from Erik Klein (thanks Erik!) that needs a little care. The machine hasn't been opened in 25 years, and it's a bit grimy. The keyboard barely works, and the drives probably need disassembly and cleaning too. I have the Sams Computerfacts for the Model 3, which should be close enough to the Model 4 for the type of work I'm going to be doing. Any words of advise before I crack the case open and void the warranty? I plan on taking lots of pictures as I go to avoid forgetting how things go back together. I'm also going to be cleaning the inside of the machine as best as I can, keeping well clear of the CRT which I understand might try to kill me. Mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 15 15:06:36 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:06:36 -0700 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) In-Reply-To: <01C88690.2D34B260@mandr71> References: <01C88690.2D34B260@mandr71> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:31:11 -0500 > Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) > >>>> Difference between A and non-A is number of stop bits. > >>> In what way? The UARTs I am familiar with have a single pin that selects >>> between either 1 or 2 stop bits (1 or 1.5 stop its if the word length is> 5 >>> bits). What does the other type do? >>> >> -tony I my meant that the primary difference was that one could do 1.5 >> stop bits while the other could do 2. There is also the differences in supply >> voltages as mentioned by others. Still, as far as how they work, the data >> sheet in the catalog I point to is more than I've seen in other places. >> My IMSAI has the AMI chip. I recall programming it with just the pinouts. >> Dwight > --------- > I'm afraid I have to disagree with you again, Dwight: > > According to the Marketing Memo from GI announcing the discontinuation > of the AY-5-1013, the -A replacement is identical except for the higher max > baud rate (in fact, it is a 5-1013 that has been tested to 40kb instead of 30). Hi For AY-5-1013 to AY-5-1013A, I reference the table on page ten of the document. I don't disagree with the maximum rates but the table does show different stop bits. For most users, of old systems, 1200 or 9600 was maximum so the top rate of the part is of no special value. Dwight > > The AY-3-1014A (there was no 1014) and 1015 are the two UARTS that use > 1 1/2 stop bits instead of 2 in 5 bit mode. > > Looks like this previous post of mine didn't make it, so I'll repost it here: > > AY-3-1014A* CMOS, 480kHz/30kb > AY-3-1015* NMOS, 480kHz/30kb > AY-5-1013 PMOS, 480kHz/30kb > AY-5-1013A PMOS, 640kHz/40kb > AY-6-1013 PMOS, 360kHz/22.5kb > > * = 1 1/2 Stop bits > PMOS = +5 & +12V, NMOS = +5V only > > m > _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From kelly at catcorner.org Sat Mar 15 15:20:05 2008 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 16:20:05 -0400 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 Message-ID: > Any words of advise before I crack the case open and void the warranty? > Be careful of the tube neck when taking off or putting back the top of the shell. I've broken one myself. I think I have ONE more spare, but I'm hanging on to it. The CRT is fastened to the top shell, and it is precariously close to the main board and mountings in the back. Kelly No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1329 - Release Date: 3/14/2008 12:33 PM From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 15 15:20:42 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:20:42 -0700 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: ats at offog.org > Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 16:06:28 +0000 > Subject: Re: strange xtal frequencies > > dwight elvey writes: > >>> 3.595295 MHz >> TV color crystal frequncy. > > No, that's 3.579545 MHz (or 4.43361875 MHz for PAL) -- this one's a > bit faster than the NTSC colourburst, which presumably is what makes > it unusual... You are correct. That is 1 out of two today. Dwight > > Colourburst crystals do show up in quite a few computing devices, > though. I built a couple of Z84C00 machines running at the PAL > colourburst rate in the mid-1990s. > > -- > Adam Sampson _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Mar 15 16:48:10 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:48:10 -0600 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47DC441A.2050400@brutman.com> The Sams Computerfacts for the Model 3 says the following about opening the case: "Place Computer on its side. Remove ten screws from the cabinet bottom. Carefully place Computer in upright position. Remove one remaining screw from rear of cabinet. Very carefully remove CRT and cabinet top, lifting straight up and setting it aside to the left (if facing CRT). Be careful not to exceed the length of the video cable." How good is this procedure? Is the tube fairly well secured to the top half of the cabinet? Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 15 16:10:18 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:10:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at Mar 15, 8 04:06:28 pm Message-ID: > > dwight elvey writes: > > >> 3.595295 MHz > > TV color crystal frequncy. > > No, that's 3.579545 MHz (or 4.43361875 MHz for PAL) -- this one's a > bit faster than the NTSC colourburst, which presumably is what makes > it unusual... To be pedantic there are several PALs (including at least one 525 line one), and I asusme several NTSC-like standards, all of which have slightly different colourbust frequencies. I don't konw of any that's 3.59... MHz, though. > > Colourburst crystals do show up in quite a few computing devices, > though. I built a couple of Z84C00 machines running at the PAL > colourburst rate in the mid-1990s. The Science of Cambridge MK14 clocked the SC/MP at 4.43... MHz, presumably because that was the cheapest crystal around. And 3.57... MHz xtals turn up all over the place, including in things which have nothing at all to do with video -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 15 16:25:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:25:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <47DC3181.8070006@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Mar 15, 8 02:28:49 pm Message-ID: > > > I received a TRS-80 Model 4 from Erik Klein (thanks Erik!) that needs a > little care. The machine hasn't been opened in 25 years, and it's a bit > grimy. The keyboard barely works, and the drives probably need > disassembly and cleaning too. > > I have the Sams Computerfacts for the Model 3, which should be close > enough to the Model 4 for the type of work I'm going to be doing. Any > words of advise before I crack the case open and void the warranty? Mechanincally the machine is identical to the Model 3. The difference is in the CPU board and the keyboard. I think some later M4s have everything (including the disk controller and RS232 port) on the CPU board, the older ones like mine have the same disk controller and RS232 boards as a Model 3, the CPU board is the same size (and same connectors [1]) as a M3 one, but electtronically very different. [1] OK, there's one extra 4 pin header on a M4 CPU board. It links to the sound board stuck to the front of the screening metalwork. As regards dismantling it. Firstly, if you've never doen one before, take care. The CRT and monitor PCB are fixed ot the top case, and the CRT neck is vert close the screening metalwork in the lower case. It's very easy to reak the CRT when reassembling the machine, it's not much harder to do so when taking it apart!. The trick is to lift the case up vertically, in fact pull it forawrds slightly. Then when it's clear, turn it 90 degress anticlockwise (seen from the front) and put it down to the left side of the base assemnbly. Then unplug the cabling. Secondly, there are 2 SMPSU boards in there with mains all over the place. Of course you unplug the mains cable before taking it apart, but it's possile for stored charge to remain. Other things. If you have the type with the separate disk controller and RS232 boards, there are tapewires that link them to connectors on the CPU oard. These are very fragile, and seem to be the problem in 99% of cases when a M3 or M$ won't boot. OK, I exagerate a bit, but handle them with care. The keyaord is a simple matrix of switches (similar to the M3 keyoard in your manual (I assume) but with extra keys in the unused spaces of the M3 matrix. The switches can, and do, fail. What I did to my M4 was pull all the keycaps (make a diagram of where they go back), then desolder all the swtiches from the PCB (!). Take the whole lot apart, and then test the switches with an Ohmmerter. Don't expect a dead short (they're contuctive ruber contaics inside), but you can seprata the good from bad ones this way. The swtiches do come apart. Clean the conductive rubber part and the contacts and try aggain. This might get some of them going. The remaining duds come apart again, and I rubed a 6B (very soft) pencil on the conductive rubber part. That really reduced the resistance!. I then worked out the least-used keyoard locations (in my case the number pad) and put the dodgy/repaired switches there. I had enough good ones to fully populate the main area with a few dubious ones in the number pad. > > I plan on taking lots of pictures as I go to avoid forgetting how things > go back together. I'm also going to be cleaning the inside of the I didn't find that necessary. There are not that many small parts. > machine as best as I can, keeping well clear of the CRT which I > understand might try to kill me. The danger from CRTs is, IMHO, much overrated. The CRT in the M4 is a 12" monochrome CRT with a tension band. It's very unlikely to violently implode (due to said tension band), it's also not that high an EHT (12kV or so). I would remove the CRT/monitor PCB from the top case to clean things properly. The monotor PCB is held on by 2 scres near the bottom edge. The CRT is held in by 4 corner nuts. Either remove them separately (if you don't mind unplgging the EHT anode cap, etc), or together. The CRT will certianly need a clean!. One of those CRT nuts is _hell_ to get to, I used a very long nutdriver to get in to that corner. Oh yes, put the top case on the edge of the bench, resting on the screen face (with the keyoard surround overhanging the edge of the bench). And NEVER lift a CRT by its neck! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 15 16:27:21 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:27:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <47DC441A.2050400@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Mar 15, 8 03:48:10 pm Message-ID: > > > The Sams Computerfacts for the Model 3 says the following about opening > the case: > > "Place Computer on its side. Remove ten screws from the cabinet bottom. > Carefully place Computer in upright position. Remove one remaining screw > from rear of cabinet. Very carefully remove CRT and cabinet top, lifting > straight up and setting it aside to the left (if facing CRT). Be careful > not to exceed the length of the video cable." > > How good is this procedure? Is the tube fairly well secured to the top > half of the cabinet? Oh yes. The CRT is helt on by 4 nuts through lugs on its tension band. The nuts run onto studs moulded into the black plastic bezel. The CRT is not going to fall out. The reason to be careful is that you can break the neck of the CRT against things in the lower case. -tony From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Sat Mar 15 17:25:22 2008 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:25:22 +0100 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions -- Update and Pictures In-Reply-To: References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E019D81A5@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <1205619921.1040.107.camel@bladerider.local> Hello, don't have much time, so only a short update. To some list members I promised to take pictures. See list below for a little description. Pictures are up on http://pdp8.de/ibm/index.cgi There are the pictures of IBM and other mainframe(?) stuff I found at the location. The location has to be freed til the end of this month (March 2008) and after seeing the items and with regard to the lack of my knowledge I don't have any use for them. If you want some of these item I can give you contact informations off list. The person would like to get some money (in the amount a scrapper would pay) but is open for proposals. The less work for him the cheaper. He has to free 800 square meters. Mostly Compaq Proliant and FSC PrimePower stuff. But also one Unisys ES700 and one or two Compaq Alpha Systems. All systems located in the southern part of Germany. Things I found there are: 2 x IBM 3088 Channel Multiplexer *NOT* new on stock Pictures IMG_166.JPG - IMG_174.JPG 1 x IBM 3163-12 ASCII Terminal with keyboard some keys missing Pictures IMG_175.JPG, IMG_180.JPG 5 x IBM 3174- 2 x 82R, 1 x 81R, 1 x 53R, 1 x 52R Pictures IMG_160.JPG, IMG_163.JPG 1 x IBM 3745-170 Front End Processor according to a hand written notice 4 boards missing Pictures IMG_164.JPG, IMG_165.JPG and IMG_181.JPG - IMG_186.JPG 1 x SNI 9688 Transdata Front End Processor very likely incomplete 1 x SNI 9688 ripped Pictures IMG_155.JPG - IMG_159.JPG Greetings Gerold From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Mar 15 19:27:10 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:27:10 -0600 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47DC695E.3000309@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The keyaord is a simple matrix of switches (similar to the M3 keyoard in > your manual (I assume) but with extra keys in the unused spaces of the M3 > matrix. The switches can, and do, fail. What I did to my M4 was pull all > the keycaps (make a diagram of where they go back), then desolder all the > swtiches from the PCB (!). Take the whole lot apart, and then test the > switches with an Ohmmerter. Don't expect a dead short (they're contuctive > ruber contaics inside), but you can seprata the good from bad ones this way. > > The swtiches do come apart. Clean the conductive rubber part and the > contacts and try aggain. This might get some of them going. The remaining > duds come apart again, and I rubed a 6B (very soft) pencil on the > conductive rubber part. That really reduced the resistance!. I then > worked out the least-used keyoard locations (in my case the number pad) > and put the dodgy/repaired switches there. I had enough good ones to > fully populate the main area with a few dubious ones in the number pad. So far so good - the disassembly instructions were perfect. The printed circuit board on the back of the neck started to snag a bundle of wires but I was able to peer through and spot the problem before it got serious. The keyboard seems to be a major problem though. I'm not too keen on desoldering 65 keys (4 contacts per key), but I don't see any way to avoid this. Soldering is not my strong point, and even if I can do it cleanly that is a lot of work. I'm looking for other ideas on rejuvenating this keyboard. I'm not above sending it to a pro who knows what they are doing. (The Computer News 80 guys/gals in Wyoming are starting to look appealing.) The rest of the machine looks pretty good. I'm going to set the keyboard aside for now and work on cleaning the drives. -Mike From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 15 22:52:06 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:52:06 -0400 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803152352.07199.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 15 March 2008 10:54, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: ats at offog.org > > > > Jeff Jonas writes: > >> 3.595295 MHz > > TV color crystal frequncy. Any time one needs to create color display > through a TV set, they'd use one of these. Nope, that's 3.579545 MHz... > These are also the cheapest crystal out there since they are > used in most every color TV. Yeah, they are pretty common, as well as some that are multiples of it -- like 14.31818 MHz, used in a *lot* of stuff. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 15 22:55:35 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:55:35 -0400 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <47DC3181.8070006@brutman.com> References: <47DC1CE8.8080903@bitsavers.org> <47DC3181.8070006@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200803152355.35596.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 15 March 2008 16:28, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I received a TRS-80 Model 4 from Erik Klein (thanks Erik!) that needs a > little care. The machine hasn't been opened in 25 years, and it's a bit > grimy. The keyboard barely works, and the drives probably need > disassembly and cleaning too. > > I have the Sams Computerfacts for the Model 3, which should be close > enough to the Model 4 for the type of work I'm going to be doing. Any > words of advise before I crack the case open and void the warranty? It's been quite some time since I got into one of those, but what comes to mind is sharp edges. The thing will want to draw blood if you're not careful. :-) > I plan on taking lots of pictures as I go to avoid forgetting how things > go back together. I'm also going to be cleaning the inside of the > machine as best as I can, keeping well clear of the CRT which I > understand might try to kill me. The thing there is to avoid putting any stress on the neck of the tube, or the small board that's attached to it. Doing so will *not* be much fun if things snap, been there and done that one (I was helping carry a TV into my office to work on it, and the guy who brought it over had removed the back to fit it into the trunk of his car). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 15 23:43:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 22:43:36 -0600 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: <200803152352.07199.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200803152352.07199.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47DCA578.3040308@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Yeah, they are pretty common, as well as some that are multiples of it -- > like 14.31818 MHz, used in a *lot* of stuff. PC's come to mind. :) PS. get them quick ... the company closes march 21. > Imagine my delight upon learning that there is NOS available of CARDIAC: Cardboard Illustrated Aid to Computing, the Bell Labs fold-flat computer that taught me so much about assembly language computing. Hurrah! > > In 1961, Bell introduced four kits to aid science education at the high school level. In 1968, they made a fifth kit available, called CARDIAC. > > Get 'em while their hot-- stock won't last long. I don't think these prices are accurate anymore, there's an email address for inquiries, since the company is going out of business. CARDIAC, $19.29, and Vu-Graph for CARDIAC $22.95. I have no idea what a VuGraph might be and don't think I've ever seen one. But I still have my trusty CARDIAC, given to me by my 5th grade teacher at the end of the year. > > http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/11/newold-stock-of-bell.html > > http://www.porticus.org/bell/belllabs_kits.html From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Mar 16 00:00:00 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 01:00:00 -0400 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: <47DCA578.3040308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803152352.07199.rtellason@verizon.net> <47DCA578.3040308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200803160100.00669.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 16 March 2008 00:43, woodelf wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Yeah, they are pretty common, as well as some that are multiples of it > > -- like 14.31818 MHz, used in a *lot* of stuff. > > PC's come to mind. :) Yup. And c64s, too, and I forget what all else but I've run into that one in a bunch of places... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Mar 16 03:22:56 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 00:22:56 -0800 Subject: IBM 3088 - Dummy questions -- Update and Pictures In-Reply-To: <1205619921.1040.107.camel@bladerider.local> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E019D81A5@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1205619921.1040.107.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: <47DCD8E0.8030003@msm.umr.edu> Gerold Pauler wrote: > > Pictures are up on > http://pdp8.de/ibm/index.cgi > > > 2 x IBM 3088 Channel Multiplexer > *NOT* new on stock > Pictures IMG_166.JPG - IMG_174.JPG > > These are excellent photographs of the 3088. It jogged my memory that the unit is programmed with a 3278 or such, which you have shown on the top of the 3088. Also in IMG_179.jpg you can see the array of bus and tag connectors at the bottom of the box under the electronics you have swung out. Maybe there are 16 sets of connector sets total. There are clearly 12 visible in the photo, and I'm guessing another set covered by the card cage. Hope someone saves these. I suspect they are pretty rare. Jim From pichotjm at free.fr Sat Mar 15 13:02:41 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:02:41 +0100 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) Message-ID: <016201c886c6$c391ad90$2601a8c0@JM3800> > From: "pichotjm" > > I spent my week-end to write a report on the restoration of the > early French > computer ODP-505. This computer is built with germanium transistors > and has > a core memory. |Thank you that is very interesting. | |I have looked on the 'Big List' to find the date it was first sold |but could not find it. Google only brings up pages in the French |language. Could you please give us the year? It is difficult for me to give a precise date. I don't have any manufacturing notes/schematics about this machine. Published computer lists indicate 1965. But they don't know my work. It seems that the machine began a military career, before a commercial one. (My machine has a military color, and a customs seal)And I think that the 1965 date is only for commercial use (not reserved to military).Date codes on PCBs range from 1962 to 1964. It's why I think 1964. But the machine was used for manufacturing problems debugging / ECN. 1964 may be the date of the last ECN... So the date is between 1962 and 1965.|It is tiny compared with my Germanium machine (ICT 1301) which weighs |five tons. It has the same clock speed but is quite a bit slower, so |I guess it is earlier than mine. But maybe the emphasis of the design |was miniaturisation and the designers traded speed for size. | |Roger Holmes |(Kent, England)What is the manufacturing date of your ICT 1301?I have a earlier machine from the same company SEREL, named OA-1001. Built in 1959/1960.I need to restore it. It lays on the floor (horizontal position)... The blue one here:http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Photos/Photos.htmlI will start restoring next month (with the Sun!) RegardsJM PICHOT From steerex at ccvn.com Sat Mar 15 15:11:41 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:11:41 -0500 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator References: <47D04517.7010509@Rikers.org> <47D04B63.3030100@Rikers.org><8E8FF5A2-B710-4AD5-B5C6-03EBDAB2FC24@xlisper.com><47D9A7FE.2060102@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <000901c886d8$c8e26fc0$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> Yo, I haven't looked in a while but, you should be able to find a HPIB/ISA card on Ebay in the $25-$50 range. The real problem is getting compatible drivers and software development tools for the card. Every card is different. You may be able to find a card that includes LabView or National Instruments drivers. Those aren't open source so, you'd need their software suite to make use of the card. There is a Linux - HPIB project but, I don't think there is any active develpment work being done on it. Last time I tried to build the project, I could not get a successful build. The project is hardware dependent and I didn't feel like tweaking the ports and registers to make it work with my cards. Never did make any progress with it. The easiest way to get started with HPIB is too find an older HP-UX box with the HPIB support (IE 800 series). HP discontinued HPIB support with HPUX 10.20. So you'll need a system that supports that OS or older. It's not open source but the system calls and libraries are well documented. HPUX 10.20 has instrument drivers (allows communications with many instruments), disk drivers, and tape drivers built-in. Somewhere, I have a HPIB floppy that I'd be willing to part with. If I manage to dig it up, I'll let you know. In case anyone is interested, I may be convinced to part with a HPIB hard drive (ala 7963) or two. I also have a spare HPIB 7980 tape drive or two. Be forewarned, I'm not giving them away! Serious offers only. Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com > I don't have a card for the PC side yet. As you say, there don't seem > to be any reasonably priced PCI cards. I've been thinking of buying an > ISA card to use with an old Win98 machine I keep around. I've seen ISA > cards pretty cheap on eBay. I'm also looking for an HP-IB floppy drive. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Mar 15 23:23:20 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 00:23:20 -0400 Subject: Manuals and other data Message-ID: <200803160023.21586.rtellason@verizon.net> I have put together a web page listing some service manuals and other literature that I'm looking to part with, here: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/manuals.html More will be added as I get the chance, but that's a large part of it. Feel free to contact me via email if you have any questions. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trebor72 at execpc.com Sun Mar 16 08:07:00 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 08:07:00 -0500 Subject: IBM 5140 is it considered a Classic Message-ID: <47DD1B74.90809@execpc.com> Is a IBM 5140 considered a Classic. I have one but one of the floppy drives is flacky. Got to find a replacement. I also seem to have mis-placed the Wall Wart. Not sure what the Voltage should be. TIA Bob in Wisconsin From evan at snarc.net Sun Mar 16 08:25:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 9:25:00 -0400 Subject: IBM 5140 is it considered a Classic Message-ID: <200803161325.m2GDPQRw038059@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Is a IBM 5140 considered a Classic. Assuming that you mean "is it considered on-topic," then, yes. The 5140 "Convertible" (1984) was IBM's first laptop and is a nice example of creative engineering from the early days of laptops overall. I met the person who designed it. One if these days I'll get around to interviewing him... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 09:27:27 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:27:27 -0500 Subject: Z80 emulator in perl In-Reply-To: <20080313105131.GA30309@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20080313105131.GA30309@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <47DD2E4F.6020301@gmail.com> David Cantrell wrote: > Dunno if this will be considered on-topic or not, as it's not about real > hardware - if not, my humble apologies. OK, that's insane. :-) I just stumbled across an entire ZX Spectrum emulator written in perl this morning: http://sourceforge.net/projects/perl-spectrum (no idea if it works - I've not got any perl support on this box) cheers Jules From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 09:39:51 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:39:51 -0400 Subject: Manuals and other data In-Reply-To: <200803160023.21586.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200803160023.21586.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0803160739s5a1b2f10o4edf2fe0ad709751@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I have put together a web page listing some service manuals and other > literature that I'm looking to part with, here: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/manuals.html > > More will be added as I get the chance, but that's a large part of it. Feel > free to contact me via email if you have any questions. Hi Roy, I am interested in taking the Yamaha FB-01 service manual and the DX7II material(*) - those are the two synths on the list that I own - and I'd be willing to scan the material if not too prohibitive. I don't know what price to offer - would $20 + shipping be too lowball? I live in Montreal, Quebec, so if shipping costs get too high it might even be too much for me. I know how heavy books can get... Thanks, Joe. PS. if you find any extra material on the Korg Prophecy, (not on the list ATM) I'd be interested in that too. (*) except the "Memory Management" Supplemental booklet, which I already have From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 09:43:00 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:43:00 -0400 Subject: Manuals and other data In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0803160739s5a1b2f10o4edf2fe0ad709751@mail.gmail.com> References: <200803160023.21586.rtellason@verizon.net> <4affc5e0803160739s5a1b2f10o4edf2fe0ad709751@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0803160743n707b7377v6267e550b1f3f3cb@mail.gmail.com> Apologies - that was supposed to go to Roy personally! Joe. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sun Mar 16 12:39:47 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:39:47 -0800 Subject: Vintage Kaypro References: <47DC441A.2050400@brutman.com> Message-ID: <000501c8878c$baab7870$0201a8c0@hal9000> Vintage Kaypro on Ebay; Item 300039229895 for only $ 25,000.00 !! / sac From shumaker at att.net Sun Mar 16 11:54:45 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:54:45 -0400 Subject: Vintage Kaypro In-Reply-To: <000501c8878c$baab7870$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <47DC441A.2050400@brutman.com> <000501c8878c$baab7870$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <47DD50D5.5040600@att.net> Interesting how they carefully avoid saying the S/N is a TRACOR test set s/n and NOT the Kaypro number. This unit has been on epay before with almost the same verbiage. ahh well... caviat emptor s shumaker. back to lurking now Scanning wrote: > Vintage Kaypro on Ebay; > > Item 300039229895 for only $ 25,000.00 !! > > / sac > > > > > From shumaker at att.net Sun Mar 16 12:05:32 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:05:32 -0400 Subject: Decmate Message-ID: <47DD535C.3040000@att.net> A question for the list at large: I've an opportunity to acquire a Decmate - apparently a Decmate I - with terminal, keyboard ("missing a couple keys") and "drives". Unit "boots, but not sure what else it does" according to the owner. Photo shows a VT100 w/kybr on top of a large housing that apparently houses the drives. Owner agreed to $50.. Online info seems to indicate it's an early Dec PDP8 based word processor but little else seems available to a cursory search (haven't hit bitsavers yet) Worth saving? collectible? I've not delved into DEC before - is this a place to start? s shumaker From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Mar 16 12:46:21 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:46:21 +0000 Subject: Decmate In-Reply-To: <47DD535C.3040000@att.net> References: <47DD535C.3040000@att.net> Message-ID: <20080316174621.GC14586@usap.gov> On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 01:05:32PM -0400, Steve Shumaker wrote: > A question for the list at large: I've an opportunity to acquire a > Decmate - apparently a Decmate I - with terminal, keyboard ("missing a > couple keys") and "drives". Unit "boots, but not sure what else it > does" according to the owner. Photo shows a VT100 w/kybr on top of a > large housing that apparently houses the drives. Owner agreed to $50.. Sounds like a good price - the keyboard is a standard VT100 keyboard, possibly one with WPS keycaps. Electrically, though, it's standard. You might be able to get someone to send you the missing caps, or even an entire keyboard inexpensively. The "VT100" _is_ the CPU... or rather, the CPU (and possibly some I/O cards) is mounted inside a VT100 shell, next to the CRT. > Online info seems to indicate it's an early Dec PDP8 based word > processor but little else seems available to a cursory search (haven't > hit bitsavers yet) It was sold as a word processor, but it's an IM6120-microprocessor-based PDP-8. You should be able to run OS/278 on it, a slightly modified version of OS/8 (the console device (03/04) behaves slightly different on the DECmates than on a "real" PDP-8, so there are a few minor changes to the console handler). > Worth saving? collectible? I've not delved into DEC before - is this > a place to start? Personally, I think it's worth saving and a collectable. I have a DECmate I with only one set of drives in the pedestal that I'd love to expand to two sets of drives (you can dismantle a rack-mount RX02 and install it in the pedestal, but there's some internal cabling to add to get the signals out and in the correct mechanical format), and I'd really love to run across the RL278 interface and hang an RL02 off of mine. My DECmate I does have one interesting, and I think rare, feature - a side desk - there's a clip that mounts on the pedestal where the keyboard tray normally hangs. It's at the right height for a special desktop that only has one side panel. You turn the pedestal so the drives face you, mount the clip, then mount the desktop to the clip. I've been using mine for a computer desk for over 15 years (since I found the desk part and the clip at the local university surplus). I've only ever run WPS on my DECmate I, but when I get home, one of my projects is going to be to go through my boxes of DEC floppies and image what I can. IIRC, if you have an OS/278 boot disk already, the DECmate I should make a nice platform for making and sending floppy images over the serial port to a nearby PeeCee. It's a lot more portable than my -8/a or my -8/e, making it easier to bring the computer to the floppies than vice-versa (I happen to have a MINC-11 with a desk-top-packaged RX02 within cable-reach of my floppy storage, so it's doubly convenient). If someone local to me offered me a DECmate I for $50, keyboard or none, I'd drop what I was doing and get in my car. It's a nice compact package and probably a little less common these days than a DECmate II or III (which are similar internally, with the largest functional difference being RX02s vs RX50s, though it's _possible_ to hook RX02s to a DECmate II if you have the rare interface do to so). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Mar-2008 at 17:29 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.6 F (-57.0 C) Windchill -109.4 F (-78.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.7 kts Grid 35 Barometer 673.0 mb (10893 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Mar 16 12:49:26 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:49:26 -0400 Subject: Vintage Kaypro In-Reply-To: <47DD50D5.5040600@att.net> References: <000501c8878c$baab7870$0201a8c0@hal9000> <47DD50D5.5040600@att.net> Message-ID: <200803161349.26735.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 16 March 2008 12:54, Steve Shumaker wrote: > Interesting how they carefully avoid saying the S/N is a TRACOR test set > s/n and NOT the Kaypro number. This unit has been on epay before > with almost the same verbiage. ahh well... caviat emptor > > s shumaker. > back to lurking now > > Scanning wrote: > > Vintage Kaypro on Ebay; > > > > Item 300039229895 for only $ 25,000.00 !! > > > > / sac I'm not familiar with TRACOR nor do I understand the significance of the s/n. I do however have oh, six or so of those machines. :-) I thought only the real earliest ones were 2.5 MHz speed, though? And those didn't come with fans, which that page mentions it having. I know that only some of mine have a fan, some don't. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From shumaker at att.net Sun Mar 16 13:30:10 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:30:10 -0400 Subject: Vintage Kaypro In-Reply-To: <200803161349.26735.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <000501c8878c$baab7870$0201a8c0@hal9000> <47DD50D5.5040600@att.net> <200803161349.26735.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47DD6732.9020505@att.net> They were a large electronics contractor in the defense arena in the 60/70/80s Bought by Marconi in 1998. Based on the description, it would seem that the Kaypro was incorporated into some type of "test set" which was designed/built for a govt contract. Was not uncommon to add s/n label plates to such equipment with s/ns starting at 001 because that allowed the custom built hardware to be tracked as part of a contract. So this unit could be nothing more than the Kaypro with a custom data connector, OR the entire inside could be custom hardware/software. s shumaker back to lurking now Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 16 March 2008 12:54, Steve Shumaker wrote: >> Interesting how they carefully avoid saying the S/N is a TRACOR test set >> s/n and NOT the Kaypro number. This unit has been on epay before >> with almost the same verbiage. ahh well... caviat emptor >> >> s shumaker. >> back to lurking now >> >> Scanning wrote: >>> Vintage Kaypro on Ebay; >>> >>> Item 300039229895 for only $ 25,000.00 !! >>> >>> / sac > > I'm not familiar with TRACOR nor do I understand the significance of the s/n. > I do however have oh, six or so of those machines. :-) > > I thought only the real earliest ones were 2.5 MHz speed, though? And those > didn't come with fans, which that page mentions it having. I know that only > some of mine have a fan, some don't. > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Mar 16 13:33:40 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:33:40 -0400 Subject: strange xtal frequencies In-Reply-To: <200803161800.m2GI0SQv023610@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803161800.m2GI0SQv023610@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c88794$41f935e0$6500a8c0@barry> > dwight elvey writes: > > >> 3.595295 MHz > > TV color crystal frequncy. > > No, that's 3.579545 MHz (or 4.43361875 MHz for PAL) -- this one's a > bit faster than the NTSC colourburst, which presumably is what makes > it unusual... 3.595295 MHz is the color burst frequency (3,579,545) plus, EXACTLY, 15,750 (the horizontal scan rate). This crystal is used to produce a "rainbow" (normally a "gated rainbow") color test display. Going from left to right it continuously changes color through all 360 degrees of the color burst. [I'm kind of surprised that it's CB+15,760 instead of CB+15,764 ... the horizontal scan frequency for COLOR is bumped up slightly from 15,750 to 15,764]. From shumaker at att.net Sun Mar 16 14:09:54 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:09:54 -0400 Subject: Decmate In-Reply-To: <20080316174621.GC14586@usap.gov> References: <47DD535C.3040000@att.net> <20080316174621.GC14586@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47DD7082.5060403@att.net> Thanks for the info... sounds like a fun project! s shumnaker back to lurking now Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 01:05:32PM -0400, Steve Shumaker wrote: >> A question for the list at large: I've an opportunity to acquire a >> Decmate - apparently a Decmate I - with terminal, keyboard ("missing a >> couple keys") and "drives". Unit "boots, but not sure what else it >> does" according to the owner. Photo shows a VT100 w/kybr on top of a >> large housing that apparently houses the drives. Owner agreed to $50.. > > Sounds like a good price - the keyboard is a standard VT100 keyboard, > possibly one with WPS keycaps. Electrically, though, it's standard. > You might be able to get someone to send you the missing caps, or even > an entire keyboard inexpensively. > > The "VT100" _is_ the CPU... or rather, the CPU (and possibly some I/O > cards) is mounted inside a VT100 shell, next to the CRT. > >> Online info seems to indicate it's an early Dec PDP8 based word >> processor but little else seems available to a cursory search (haven't >> hit bitsavers yet) > > It was sold as a word processor, but it's an IM6120-microprocessor-based > PDP-8. You should be able to run OS/278 on it, a slightly modified version > of OS/8 (the console device (03/04) behaves slightly different on the > DECmates than on a "real" PDP-8, so there are a few minor changes to the > console handler). > >> Worth saving? collectible? I've not delved into DEC before - is this >> a place to start? > > Personally, I think it's worth saving and a collectable. I have a DECmate I > with only one set of drives in the pedestal that I'd love to expand to two > sets of drives (you can dismantle a rack-mount RX02 and install it in the > pedestal, but there's some internal cabling to add to get the signals out > and in the correct mechanical format), and I'd really love to run across the > RL278 interface and hang an RL02 off of mine. My DECmate I does have one > interesting, and I think rare, feature - a side desk - there's a clip that > mounts on the pedestal where the keyboard tray normally hangs. It's at > the right height for a special desktop that only has one side panel. You > turn the pedestal so the drives face you, mount the clip, then mount the > desktop to the clip. I've been using mine for a computer desk for over > 15 years (since I found the desk part and the clip at the local university > surplus). > > I've only ever run WPS on my DECmate I, but when I get home, one of my > projects is going to be to go through my boxes of DEC floppies and image > what I can. IIRC, if you have an OS/278 boot disk already, the DECmate I > should make a nice platform for making and sending floppy images over the > serial port to a nearby PeeCee. It's a lot more portable than my -8/a > or my -8/e, making it easier to bring the computer to the floppies than > vice-versa (I happen to have a MINC-11 with a desk-top-packaged RX02 > within cable-reach of my floppy storage, so it's doubly convenient). > > If someone local to me offered me a DECmate I for $50, keyboard or none, > I'd drop what I was doing and get in my car. It's a nice compact package > and probably a little less common these days than a DECmate II or III > (which are similar internally, with the largest functional difference > being RX02s vs RX50s, though it's _possible_ to hook RX02s to a DECmate II > if you have the rare interface do to so). > > -ethan > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 16 14:49:59 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:49:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <47DC695E.3000309@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Mar 15, 8 06:27:10 pm Message-ID: > The keyboard seems to be a major problem though. I'm not too keen on > desoldering 65 keys (4 contacts per key), but I don't see any way to This sounds as thought it might be slightly differnt to my keyboard. I only rememebr 2 contacts per key. On the other hand, when I ordered a replacement keyswitch for my Model 3 (about 20 years ago), I did have to specify the brand of the keyboard PCB (Radio shack apparently bought these in). The keyboards in oth my M3 and M4 are ALPS brand, FWIW. The reason I mention this is that dismantling the switches themselves will vary between brands. > avoid this. Soldering is not my strong point, and even if I can do it > cleanly that is a lot of work. The good news is that (at least for the ALPS keyoard), it's a single-sided PCB, bot plated through. So it desolders quite easily, The bad news is that it's a cheap SRBP oard, and the traces lift all too easily. I've completely sesoldered several keyboards for repair. It takes me an afternoon to get them apart without damage (and a lot less time to get it back together again). I guess if you need soldering practice, though, this is not a bad project ot undertake. There arer no ICs on the keyoard PCB, so there's no risk of static damage, and the parts are not particularly thermalliy sensitive. > The rest of the machine looks pretty good. I'm going to set the > keyboard aside for now and work on cleaning the drives. I don;t know what drives you have (Tandon TM100s were fairly standard), but if you take them significantly apart, you'll need an alignment disk and 'scope when you come to put them back together. Again, something that doesn't worry me _at all_ now, but it might be a problem for you. If you want to take the drives apart to clean them, let me (us?) know the model number (or any markings on them). I can then give you an idea what what you can take off without losing the alignment. -tony From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Mar 16 15:45:27 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:45:27 -0400 Subject: Decmate In-Reply-To: <47DD535C.3040000@att.net> References: <47DD535C.3040000@att.net> Message-ID: <47DD86E7.2040201@hawkmountain.net> Steve Shumaker wrote: > A question for the list at large: I've an opportunity to acquire a > Decmate - apparently a Decmate I - with terminal, keyboard ("missing a > couple keys") and "drives". Unit "boots, but not sure what else it > does" according to the owner. Photo shows a VT100 w/kybr on top of a > large housing that apparently houses the drives. Owner agreed to $50.. If you decide this isn't something your into... I've been wanting a pdp8/decmate for some time.... just haven't run across one at the right price.... The $50 the owner wants is within my range... so let me know if you don't get it and give the owner my e-mail address. If you do get it... it is PDP8 based. Most ran WPS word processing software, but there is an OS/8 version called OS/278 that I believe works on these. A PDP-8 (specifically PDP-8/I) is what got me 'hooked' on computers in 1982... so it is something I'd love to have again. (PDP-8's (mostly /e and /f) go for big $ on ePay... so until I have lots of disposable cash (heh... doubt that will be anytime soon) the decmate becomes the only thing in my price range :-) > > Online info seems to indicate it's an early Dec PDP8 based word > processor but little else seems available to a cursory search > (haven't hit bitsavers yet) > Yes, that would be WPS. The first version ran on the VT78, which was a PDP-8 inside a VT52 housing. Stinking idiot me, years ago I had no idea what that was... I had one that was mint. Just no software. My dad got tired of the space it was taking up in his garage.... and I got sick of the nagging and let him dump it... I've never forgiven myself since.... (and never will). > Worth saving? collectible? I've not delved into DEC before - is > this a place to start? > Saving... sure... collectible... maybe not as much as things like an Apple I/etc that have a more widespread appeal... but there are people like me out there (like me) that find them interesting to play with. > > s shumaker > -- Curt From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 16 17:39:29 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:39:29 -0600 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47DDA1A1.2000609@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: > This sounds as thought it might be slightly differnt to my keyboard. I > only rememebr 2 contacts per key. On the other hand, when I ordered a > replacement keyswitch for my Model 3 (about 20 years ago), I did have to > specify the brand of the keyboard PCB (Radio shack apparently bought > these in). The keyboards in oth my M3 and M4 are ALPS brand, FWIW. > > The reason I mention this is that dismantling the switches themselves > will vary between brands. This is an ALPS keyboard. Somebody at Erik's site mentioned that it is possible to coax a single keyswitch out of the unit by desoldering, squeezing some tabs near the top, and then lifting through the metal plate. As things stand now it looks like I need at least 30 key switch mechanisms .. it might be more practical to construct a replacement keyboard and hand wire it. (I'm naively thinking some new Cherry switches, a sheet of plexiglass, and a lot of wire. Not a pretty modification, but it gives me a new keyboard with switches that I can replace. Has anybody done something like this recently?) > I don;t know what drives you have (Tandon TM100s were fairly standard), > but if you take them significantly apart, you'll need an alignment disk > and 'scope when you come to put them back together. Again, something that > doesn't worry me _at all_ now, but it might be a problem for you. > > If you want to take the drives apart to clean them, let me (us?) know the > model number (or any markings on them). I can then give you an idea what > what you can take off without losing the alignment. Texas Peripherals 10-5355-001. The inside of the case was fairly good, thanks to all of the extreme shielding that Tandy put in. I cleaned the drive head and rails, and lubricated the rails with a teflon impregnated oil. They are quieter now. I'm not going to go much further than that without a scope and alignment disks. If these drives go bad I have double sided drives from the PC family that I can use, or I will convert to use double density 720KB drives. MIke From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 16 17:02:58 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:02:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <47DDA1A1.2000609@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Mar 16, 8 04:39:29 pm Message-ID: > > This is an ALPS keyboard. Somebody at Erik's site mentioned that it is > possible to coax a single keyswitch out of the unit by desoldering, > squeezing some tabs near the top, and then lifting through the metal It is. There are a couple of locking tabs that you sqeeze inwards to free the switch. In fact that's how you get the switches out if you desolder the lot and take the PCB off. My view is that if you have about half the switches defective (as you seem to), then you probably should take the whole thing apart, test the switches, etc. You can test them in place (an ohmmeter between the pins, then press the key), there anre no other components to confuse the resistance reading. > plate. As things stand now it looks like I need at least 30 key switch > mechanisms .. it might be more practical to construct a replacement > keyboard and hand wire it. As I mentioned, it is possible to take the swtiches apart and clean the contacts and/or coat them in a bit of pencil graphite. But how long it'll last I don't know. I did it to mine, they're still working _but_ I put them in places where I'd not really use them (I rarely use numeric keypads, so I put the bodged switches there). You;'ve got far too many duds to do that, though. > (I'm naively thinking some new Cherry switches, a sheet of plexiglass, > and a lot of wire. Not a pretty modification, but it gives me a new > keyboard with switches that I can replace. Has anybody done something > like this recently?) Not recently, nbut I have done it. The main problem with doing it on the M4 is that IIRC the scan lines are the CPU address bus, suitably buffered. Which means a lot of HF noise flying around (the scan lines are thus toggling all the time, even when the keyboard is not being read). THere has been talk on the list of using a microcontroller to interface a PC-type keyboard to a machine that expects a matrix of switches. Whether a microcotroller could keep up with the Z80 address lines and correctly output the keyboard data or whether you;d need a separate crosspoint switch chip (which is what I'd probably use anyway) I don't know. > > > I don;t know what drives you have (Tandon TM100s were fairly standard), > > but if you take them significantly apart, you'll need an alignment disk > > and 'scope when you come to put them back together. Again, something that > > doesn't worry me _at all_ now, but it might be a problem for you. > > > > If you want to take the drives apart to clean them, let me (us?) know the > > model number (or any markings on them). I can then give you an idea what > > what you can take off without losing the alignment. > > Texas Peripherals 10-5355-001. The inside of the case was fairly good, Which, IIRC, are a very close clone of the TM100. To the extent that most, if not all, parts interchange. > thanks to all of the extreme shielding that Tandy put in. I cleaned the > drive head and rails, and lubricated the rails with a teflon impregnated > oil. They are quieter now. > > I'm not going to go much further than that without a scope and alignment If these are TM100-a-likes, then the postiioner mechanism is on a little subschassis which you move to do the radial alignment. I've had great success in scribng a line to indicage the position of that subchassis on the main chassis, then carefully turning hte adjusting cam screw _without loosening the positioner fixing screws_ and scribing the limits of its travel on the positioner unit. When I put the positioner back in, I line up the marks, get the cam screw to have the same limits of travel, and clamp things up. I then put an alignment disk in (:-)). Every time I've done this I've been well within tolerance on the alignment disk. On the other hand, I'd probably not risk it if I didn't have the alignment stuff to hand. Now, the index timing is pretty unimoortant, so it's OK to take off the upper clamp arm. Of course you can remove the spindle motor, belt, spindle, beaerings, etc. If you want to remove the track 0 switch, again mark the position first. I've never had any problems getting that back right. Those swtiches do fail sometimes, amazingly an identical part (it's a low operating force microswitch, about 15g IIRC), is available still. > disks. If these drives go bad I have double sided drives from the PC > family that I can use, or I will convert to use double density 720KB drives. Perhaps I'm odd, but I like to keep machines as original as possible. Which includes keeping the origianl drives, PSUs, etc. -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Mar 16 17:43:19 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:43:19 +0000 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1205707399.10395.0.camel@elric> On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 22:02 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Perhaps I'm odd You said it, not me... Gordon From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 16 18:51:04 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:51:04 -0600 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080316174920.083b1758@mail.threedee.com> Does anyone recognize this archive as a mirror of other spots? http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static//S100/index.html It seems to be connected to majzel.com, registered to a Agata Majzel, Flat 22, 27 Hereford Road, London W2 4TQ. - John -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1327 - Release Date: 3/12/2008 1:27 PM From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 16 18:25:37 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:25:37 -0700 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: <47DDAC71.3050705@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone recognize this archive as a mirror of other spots? most of bitsavers is in there. From kelly at catcorner.org Sun Mar 16 20:21:46 2008 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:21:46 -0400 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: > Does anyone recognize this archive as a mirror of other spots? > > http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static//S100/index.html > > It seems to be connected to majzel.com, registered to a > Agata Majzel, Flat 22, 27 Hereford Road, London W2 4TQ. > > - John Seems like a case of "My archive is bigger than your archive." I see stuff in here from a lot of different archives and personal web sites. Kelly No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1331 - Release Date: 3/16/2008 10:34 AM From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Mar 16 22:43:38 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:43:38 -0600 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47DDE8EA.8030404@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Perhaps I'm odd, but I like to keep machines as original as possible. > Which includes keeping the origianl drives, PSUs, etc. No, not odd at all. (Not for that at least.) I'd like to keep the machine original too, but it also has to be usable. If I can't use it, there is no joy ... I'm thinking ahead a little bit, but I'm going to be in the market for an assembler and a C cross compiler. I need to write a TCP/IP stack for this one now. ;-0 (My DOS based TCP/IP is almost done .. I'm slogging through a DNS resolver now.) Mike From c_habib at bluewin.ch Sun Mar 16 17:00:56 2008 From: c_habib at bluewin.ch (charles habib) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:00:56 +0100 Subject: Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI 8080 cover Message-ID: <01c001c887b1$36512d70$b600a8c0@yannih> Hello does someone of us know the pantone or RAL reference of the blue paint on the IMSAI 8080 cover? I want to repaint mine but i don't find the exact reference of this blue. Many thanks in advance Charles From roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au Sun Mar 16 16:52:13 2008 From: roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au (Roman Szeremeta) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:52:13 +1100 Subject: Decmate References: <47DD535C.3040000@att.net> <20080316174621.GC14586@usap.gov> Message-ID: <001201c887af$feebec40$0200a8c0@inspiron> Looks like $50 is the magic number. I picked up a vt78, precursor to the Decmate, 10 years ago for the same amount! It is configured for WPS but apparently you can tweak it to run the OS. Anybody know how? Is there software available for it? I thought I saw a reference to Basic being available for the vt78. My project is to have every computer I have run a Basic program to read my GPS to get the time and date and display it. Keeps me frustrated! Roman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 4:46 AM Subject: Re: Decmate > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 01:05:32PM -0400, Steve Shumaker wrote: >> A question for the list at large: I've an opportunity to acquire a >> Decmate - apparently a Decmate I - with terminal, keyboard ("missing a >> couple keys") and "drives". Unit "boots, but not sure what else it >> does" according to the owner. Photo shows a VT100 w/kybr on top of a >> large housing that apparently houses the drives. Owner agreed to $50.. > > Sounds like a good price - the keyboard is a standard VT100 keyboard, > possibly one with WPS keycaps. Electrically, though, it's standard. > You might be able to get someone to send you the missing caps, or even > an entire keyboard inexpensively. > > The "VT100" _is_ the CPU... or rather, the CPU (and possibly some I/O > cards) is mounted inside a VT100 shell, next to the CRT. > >> Online info seems to indicate it's an early Dec PDP8 based word >> processor but little else seems available to a cursory search (haven't >> hit bitsavers yet) > > It was sold as a word processor, but it's an IM6120-microprocessor-based > PDP-8. You should be able to run OS/278 on it, a slightly modified > version > of OS/8 (the console device (03/04) behaves slightly different on the > DECmates than on a "real" PDP-8, so there are a few minor changes to the > console handler). > >> Worth saving? collectible? I've not delved into DEC before - is this >> a place to start? > > Personally, I think it's worth saving and a collectable. I have a DECmate > I > with only one set of drives in the pedestal that I'd love to expand to two > sets of drives (you can dismantle a rack-mount RX02 and install it in the > pedestal, but there's some internal cabling to add to get the signals out > and in the correct mechanical format), and I'd really love to run across > the > RL278 interface and hang an RL02 off of mine. My DECmate I does have one > interesting, and I think rare, feature - a side desk - there's a clip that > mounts on the pedestal where the keyboard tray normally hangs. It's at > the right height for a special desktop that only has one side panel. You > turn the pedestal so the drives face you, mount the clip, then mount the > desktop to the clip. I've been using mine for a computer desk for over > 15 years (since I found the desk part and the clip at the local university > surplus). > > I've only ever run WPS on my DECmate I, but when I get home, one of my > projects is going to be to go through my boxes of DEC floppies and image > what I can. IIRC, if you have an OS/278 boot disk already, the DECmate I > should make a nice platform for making and sending floppy images over the > serial port to a nearby PeeCee. It's a lot more portable than my -8/a > or my -8/e, making it easier to bring the computer to the floppies than > vice-versa (I happen to have a MINC-11 with a desk-top-packaged RX02 > within cable-reach of my floppy storage, so it's doubly convenient). > > If someone local to me offered me a DECmate I for $50, keyboard or none, > I'd drop what I was doing and get in my car. It's a nice compact package > and probably a little less common these days than a DECmate II or III > (which are similar internally, with the largest functional difference > being RX02s vs RX50s, though it's _possible_ to hook RX02s to a DECmate II > if you have the rare interface do to so). > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Mar-2008 at > 17:29 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.6 F (-57.0 C) Windchill -109.4 F (-78.6 > C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 12.7 kts Grid 35 Barometer 673.0 mb (10893 > ft) > > Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 17 03:24:27 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:24:27 -0500 Subject: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) Message-ID: <01C887DE.BDD37320@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:06:36 -0700 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: UARTs (was: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch) >> According to the Marketing Memo from GI announcing the discontinuation >> of the AY-5-1013, the -A replacement is identical except for the higher max >> baud rate (in fact, it is a 5-1013 that has been tested to 40kb instead of 30). >Hi > For AY-5-1013 to AY-5-1013A, I reference the table on page ten of the document. > I don't disagree with the maximum rates but the table does show different stop bits. > For most users, of old systems, 1200 or 9600 was maximum so the top rate of > the part is of no special value. > Dwight Not to belabour the issue, but since cross-references are notorious for their inaccuracies I think I'll go by GI's AY-5-1013/A datasheet, especially since they made a point of issuing a bulletin to their customers assuring them that the 5-1013A was in fact a 5-1013 selected for the higher baud rate. Also notice that this part was marked on your cross-reference with a note to consult the factory for detailed interchangeability information. Other cross-references list these SMC equivalents: AY-5-1013 COM2502 AY-5-1013A COM2502H (not 2017) And it makes more sense that the same number with a different suffix would indeed be the identical part with a different speed. (e.g. http://tvservice.org/components/CROSSREF.PDF) Finally, GI part numbers are easily confused. As an example, if you want to look at the AY-5-1013A data sheet to convince yourself that it is indeed a 1 & 2 stop bit UART, you will find it at datasheetarchive.com and alldatasheet.com, but listed as an AY-3-1013 at the former, and AY-3-1013A at the latter (neither of which, AFAIK, was ever a valid GI part number). I just wanted to set the record straight in case someone for whom it's actually relevant reads this thread some day. m From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 17 03:16:25 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:16:25 +0000 Subject: Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI 8080 cover In-Reply-To: <01c001c887b1$36512d70$b600a8c0@yannih> References: <01c001c887b1$36512d70$b600a8c0@yannih> Message-ID: <1205741786.19264.0.camel@elric> On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 23:00 +0100, charles habib wrote: > Hello > does someone of us know the pantone or RAL reference of the blue paint on the IMSAI 8080 cover? > I want to repaint mine but i don't find the exact reference of this blue. IIRC it's spraypainted sheet metal. I suspect your best bet would be to go to a car bodywork place. They'll be able to match and spray the paint, and do a far better job. Won't be cheap though. Gordon From grant at stockly.com Mon Mar 17 06:00:02 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:00:02 -0800 Subject: Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI 8080 cover In-Reply-To: <01c001c887b1$36512d70$b600a8c0@yannih> References: <01c001c887b1$36512d70$b600a8c0@yannih> Message-ID: <0JXV002HKFVXLT30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 02:00 PM 3/16/2008, you wrote: >Hello >does someone of us know the pantone or RAL reference of the blue >paint on the IMSAI 8080 cover? >I want to repaint mine but i don't find the exact reference of this blue. >Many thanks in advance If you get a color booklet, look for one called "Pantone Formula Guide Solid Coated". I had a lot of trouble before finding out it was an ink-jet color book. I don't understand why the color codes can't cross... Getting the colors to match on the Kenbak was one of the hardest parts of the project! : ) From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Mar 17 07:09:39 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:09:39 +0000 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <200803161752.m2GHqGTR023473@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803161752.m2GHqGTR023473@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <047D04D0-D2AF-4146-8D36-7A1DEED6FF7F@microspot.co.uk> On 16 Mar, 2008, at 17:52, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > It is difficult for me to give a precise date. I don't have any > manufacturing notes/schematics about this machine. Published > computer lists > indicate 1965. But they don't know my work. It seems that the > machine began > a military career, before a commercial one. (My machine has a military > color, and a customs seal)And I think that the 1965 date is only for > commercial use (not reserved to military).Date codes on PCBs range > from 1962 > to 1964. It's why I think 1964. But the machine was used for > manufacturing > problems debugging / ECN. 1964 may be the date of the last ECN... > So the > date is between 1962 and 1965. Thank. I presume ECN means PCB = Printed Circuit Board. > |It is tiny compared with my Germanium machine > (ICT 1301) which weighs > |five tons. It has the same clock speed but is quite a bit slower, so > |I guess it is earlier than mine. But maybe the emphasis of the design > |was miniaturisation and the designers traded speed for size. > | I should have made it clear that it is the 1301 which is the faster of the two. For example a 48 bit decimal (i.e. 12 digits) add to / subtract from a register takes 21 microseconds. > > What is the manufacturing date of your ICT 1301? Actually I have two. Serial number 6 was the first one to be sold and was installed in 1962 and it is this one which is assembled and works, though not all the peripherals are functional. Serial number 75 I would guess was made in 1963. I have a few parts of serial number 155, which I would think would be from 1965 when the machines were largely replaced by the ICT 1900 series. Designing of the machines was started in the late 1950s, and many of the engineering drawings have initial revisions from that period. The architecture of your machine reminds me of the first machine I was allowed to operate. It was an 18 bit binary machine, it had 8k of memory built in, expandable with external modules and was made by the Airborne Computing Division (ACD) of Elliotts, it was an Elliott 920B and was a compact, flyable version of the commercial Elliott 903. There had been an earlier model 920A which I think would have been Germanium and was roughly the size and shape of a carpenters work bench. This may have been contemporary with your earlier machine I think. Unfortunately I never saw one in the flesh, but there was a bench in the computer room which I found out later, was the empty chassis of a 920A. Behind the bench was a large panel full of electrical 'chocolate strip' connectors where the analogue and digital input and output signals of the 920A could be connected up. Apparently some of the analogue outputs had been connected up to an oscilloscope to provide a visual display unit, though it used a fair bit of processor time to keep it refreshed, even with the long persistence phosphor of an oscilloscope. The panel had been covered with board with pegs to hold mylar paper tapes and until the day it was scrapped I had not seen what was behind it. > I have a > earlier machine from the same company SEREL, named OA-1001. Built in > 1959/1960.I need to restore it. It lays on the floor (horizontal > position)... The blue one > here:http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Photos/Photos.htmlI will start > restoring > next month (with the Sun!) What is involved in the restoration? Do you intend to make it work, this would be very hard without the schematics. Roger. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Mar 17 08:59:32 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:59:32 -0400 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <47DDE8EA.8030404@brutman.com> References: <47DDE8EA.8030404@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1886666C-A736-4900-B5DF-0B6D1B875B76@neurotica.com> On Mar 16, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Perhaps I'm odd, but I like to keep machines as original as >> possible. Which includes keeping the origianl drives, PSUs, etc. > > No, not odd at all. (Not for that at least.) I'd like to keep the > machine original too, but it also has to be usable. If I can't use > it, there is no joy ... > > I'm thinking ahead a little bit, but I'm going to be in the market > for an assembler and a C cross compiler. I need to write a TCP/IP > stack for this one now. ;-0 Look at SDCC, it supports Z80 and is quite good. The Z80 port is still maturing, but it is usable. It comes with an assembler. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Mar 17 12:07:14 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI 8080 cover Message-ID: Wasn't the IMSAI case (and many others of the same era) powder-coated? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Mar 17 12:38:15 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:38:15 -0400 Subject: Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI 8080 cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Wasn't the IMSAI case (and many others of the same era) powder-coated? > Didn't you have one fully restored (including repainted) as a prize at an early VCF? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1331 - Release Date: 3/16/2008 10:34 AM From legalize at xmission.com Mon Mar 17 13:11:27 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:11:27 -0600 Subject: Decmate In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:05:32 -0400. <47DD535C.3040000@att.net> Message-ID: In article <47DD535C.3040000 at att.net>, Steve Shumaker writes: > Worth saving? collectible? I've not delved into DEC before - is this > a place to start? Worth saving and a bargain at $50, particularly if its in decent cosmetic shape and contains the drives. VT-100s in decent cosmetic shape go for $100+, for various values of "decent". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 17 16:06:14 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:06:14 -0500 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: <01C88848.F567C2E0@mandr71> ---------Original Message: Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:21:46 -0400 From: "Kelly Leavitt" Subject: RE: S100 archive? > Does anyone recognize this archive as a mirror of other spots? > > http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static//S100/index.html > > It seems to be connected to majzel.com, registered to a > Agata Majzel, Flat 22, 27 Hereford Road, London W2 4TQ. > > - John Seems like a case of "My archive is bigger than your archive." I see stuff in here from a lot of different archives and personal web sites. Kelly ----------Reply: Is this a problem or do you just like to belittle someone's hard work? As a fellow Cromemco fan I happen to know Marcus, the person behind that site (in Switzerland btw.) a little bit and I know for a fact that he has spent an enormous amount of time and effort scanning and indexing material that is not available elsewhere. Is there a problem with adding material that *is* already available in order to make a section as complete as possible, and to have it conveniently findable in an index? If any of the actual "owners" of that material want to keep it to themselves and *THEIR* site, I'm sure he would remove it. I've also never known him to brag about it in any way, only to point to his site on occasion when he runs across someone on a forum somewhere looking for something that he has. Since it's my own interest and in a very tiny part my contribution, I defy you to find any one of many dozens of his 300+ Cromemco documents elsewhere, unless they've been copied from his site. Compare it to bitsaver's Cromemco collection for example (6 manuals at last count, although I don't in any way mean to belittle Al's enormous effort), or even Harte's site which is one of the better ones. That's not to mention the actual code and disk images which are even rarer anywhere else, all a work constantly in progress. It's comments like yours that make some people ask why the hell they bother; I hope you don't have to grit your teeth one day and retrieve some elusive boot disk or manual from his site... And if you prefer to Google through the many fragmented and scattered sources on the Internet, by all means do do. m From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 17 15:28:39 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:28:39 +0100 Subject: Unknown Omnibus printer interface: Help needed Message-ID: <47DED477.2030003@hachti.de> Hi folks, I have two Omnibus printer interfaces, not from DEC. They could be something german... They are labeled "CSI printer interface" and have 20 pin Berg connector. It seems to be a 7 bit interface. Does anybody know anything or has any ideas? Docs? Perhaps the card is a clone of a DEC standard card. So it would be interesting to get information about the term "CSI printer".... Thanks a lot, Philipp P.S.: I could also need a DEC parallel printer card (Centronics or Data Products compatible) as well... From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 17 16:25:57 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:25:57 -0600 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <01C88848.F567C2E0@mandr71> References: <01C88848.F567C2E0@mandr71> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080317152156.08524f38@mail.threedee.com> At 03:06 PM 3/17/2008, M H Stein wrote: >It's comments like yours that make some people ask why the hell they >bother; I hope you don't have to grit your teeth one day and retrieve some >elusive boot disk or manual from his site... I didn't criticize it, and neither did Kelly as far as I saw. I wanted to point it out to the group and determine whether it was indeed a new trove or not. The site itself doesn't tell me whether it's copied from elsewhere or not. That would make it more useful and descriptive, wouldn't it? The "World's Largest Ball of Saved Twine Bits" approach doesn't tell me much. If you take something from elsewhere, why not attribute? If you made something yourself, why not tell me it's unique? - John -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1331 - Release Date: 3/16/2008 10:34 AM From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Mar 17 16:14:24 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:14:24 +0000 Subject: Unknown Omnibus printer interface: Help needed In-Reply-To: <47DED477.2030003@hachti.de> References: <47DED477.2030003@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20080317211424.GC7297@usap.gov> On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 09:28:39PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I have two Omnibus printer interfaces, not from DEC. They could be > something german... > > They are labeled "CSI printer interface" and have 20 pin Berg connector. > > It seems to be a 7 bit interface. > > Does anybody know anything or has any ideas? Docs? No specific ideas, but there should be IOT selection jumpers that may tell you if the card is responding to LP8E instructions or not. I'd look the defaults up, but I don't have satellite right now, and I haven't memorized those IOTs. If you look up the LP8E and check out the IOTs, you could try writing a small program and issuing the one to send a byte to the printer and check the activity on the Berg connector. A parallel printer is going to typically have data bits and handshaking. Most OMNIBUS cards are pretty sparse - it might not be too difficult to reverse-engineer it, especially if you start by looking at the bus interface and IOT section of a real LP8E - any driver-compatible clone is likely to be quite similar at that stage. If the card isn't using LP8E IOTs, it could be doing anything, though, which isn't impossible to figure out, but it adds a bit of complexity to the task of figuring it out. > Perhaps the card is a clone of a DEC standard card. So it would be > interesting to get information about the term "CSI printer".... I don't recognize that term. > P.S.: I could also need a DEC parallel printer card (Centronics or Data > Products compatible) as well... Yuo didn't say what kind of -8, but if you have an -8/a with the standard I/O cards installed, you can use the general purpose parallel I/O on the DKC8AA as a parallel printer interface. There is supposed to be a driver for OS/8 that knows about that ports IOTs and which does the data bit inversion in software (since the DKC8AA is not set up identically to the LP8E). I haven't tried to do it, but I've read about it, and it sounds straightforward. If you have an older OMNIBUS machine, you won't have room for a hex-height card, so you would need an LP8E or perhaps an LQP8E or similar. My -8/a has an LP8E running to an LA180 (when they are in the same room), mostly because I bought the LP8E back in the 1980s before I heard that you could use the DKC8AA, or else I probably would have spent the money on a different interface. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Mar-2008 at 21:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -76.5 F (-60.3 C) Windchill -114.0 F (-81.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.6 kts Grid 64 Barometer 675.8 mb (10787 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Mar 17 17:00:32 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI 8080 cover Message-ID: Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Wasn't the IMSAI case (and many others of the same era) powder-coated? > Didn't you have one fully restored (including repainted) as a prize at > an early VCF? Yes, at VCF 2.0 we gave away a prettied-up IMSAI 8080. My friend (who owns http://www.trimapintl.com) powder-coated the enclosure for me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 17 17:28:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI 8080 cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080317152810.L17641@shell.lmi.net> > > Didn't you have one fully restored (including repainted) as a prize at > > an early VCF? On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Yes, at VCF 2.0 we gave away a prettied-up IMSAI 8080. My friend (who > owns http://www.trimapintl.com) powder-coated the enclosure for me. . . . so, . . . the originals were NOT done with a can of spray paint from Pep Boys? From djg at pdp8.net Mon Mar 17 17:53:54 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:53:54 -0400 Subject: Decmate Message-ID: <200803172253.m2HMrss32356@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >I picked up a vt78, precursor to the Decmate, 10 years ago for the same >amount! >It is configured for WPS but apparently you can tweak it to run the OS. >Anybody know how? > On mine I can put in an OS78 disk to boot its version of OS/8 or WPS to boot WPS, no changes needed. Their were various rom packs that go on the back. I don't know if some would make it only run WPS. >Is there software available for it? I thought I saw a reference to Basic >being available for the vt78. > The standard OS78 has basic on it. See the os78 images on this page. http://www.pdp8online.com/images/images/os8.shtml Do you have anything that can write standard single density 8" disks? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 17 18:22:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:22:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <1205707399.10395.0.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Mar 16, 8 10:43:19 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 22:02 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Perhaps I'm odd > > You said it, not me... A freind of mine (and he's still a friend...) once said "When you first meet Tony, you might think he's mildly eccentric. When you get to know him, you'll realise that there's nothing mild about his eccentricities" -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 17 18:32:07 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:32:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <47DDE8EA.8030404@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Mar 16, 8 09:43:38 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Perhaps I'm odd, but I like to keep machines as original as possible. > > Which includes keeping the origianl drives, PSUs, etc. > > No, not odd at all. (Not for that at least.) I'd like to keep the > machine original too, but it also has to be usable. If I can't use it, > there is no joy ... I certianly agree with that. I don't collect ornaments. I collect computing machines (and related stuff). The purpose of those is to run programs, not to lokk pretty on the shelf. But I don't feel that is mutually exclusive with 'keep them as original as possible'. The 'as possible' bit covers replacing faulty parts so that the machines can run again. But I replace the smallest part possible. Obviously I don't have an IC fab line, so if a chip fails I have to replace it. Maybe not with the same type but with a compatible one, or worse with one that needs minor mofifications to the rest of the machine for it all to work. But I replace the chip. I don't replace the entire PCB. Similarly, I cna't repair a disk drive head. But I can replace the head carriage, and keep the rest of the original drive in the machine. Or, as I did recently, replace a track 0 sensor microswitch with an almost indentical part (the only difference was the manufacturer, from what I could see). Sometimes I do try to repair the original part, if there's no suitable new replacement. I've been known to rewind motors, for example. Of course what is 'possible' depends on who you are. But I try to take the view that if it's something I've not repaired before then it's a way of learning how to do something new, not a problem that I'll never manage to solve. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 19:39:33 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:39:33 -0400 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47DF0F45.8080000@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 22:02 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Perhaps I'm odd >> You said it, not me... > > A freind of mine (and he's still a friend...) once said > "When you first meet Tony, you might think he's mildly eccentric. When > you get to know him, you'll realise that there's nothing mild about his > eccentricities" I resemble that remark as well. I suspect that there are quite a few of us around here. Peace... Sridhar From shumaker at att.net Mon Mar 17 20:04:50 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:04:50 -0400 Subject: Decmate In-Reply-To: <200803172253.m2HMrss32356@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200803172253.m2HMrss32356@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <47DF1532.6050101@att.net> Unfortunately not with me. I have some 8" drives in storage in CA but brought almost nothing with me when I moved to VA... Will definitely have work that djg at pdp8.net wrote: >> I picked up a vt78, precursor to the Decmate, 10 years ago for the same >> amount! >> It is configured for WPS but apparently you can tweak it to run the OS. >> Anybody know how? >> > On mine I can put in an OS78 disk to boot its version of OS/8 or > WPS to boot WPS, no changes needed. Their were various rom packs that > go on the back. I don't know if some would make it only run WPS. > >> Is there software available for it? I thought I saw a reference to Basic >> being available for the vt78. >> > The standard OS78 has basic on it. See the os78 images on this page. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/images/images/os8.shtml > > Do you have anything that can write standard single density 8" disks? Unfortunately not with me. I have some 8" drives in storage in CA but brought almost nothing with me when I moved to VA... Will definitely have work on that when I finally get the unit! thanks for the link... looks like a lot of useful stuff! s shumaker From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Mar 17 21:11:00 2008 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:11:00 -0400 Subject: A little OT: Acculogic SIDE-1/16 Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience with this? It is an 8 bit ISA interface card for 16-bit IDE drives. I have one running on my 1000tx. It is configured at address c8000 and irq2 (the tx can use either 2 or 5 depending on a switch). Using this, nothing quite runs. I think it is due to the strange video of the 1000tx (it is the Tandy "CGA", and gets its memory from the top of system RAM). With this card installed, and using a CP 3104 hard drive and Tandy's Dos for this computer, I have 2 32 Meg partitions. However, just about every piece of software causes the machine to lock up. If I install a WDXT-GEN board everything runs fine. However, I don't have any working st-506 interface drives. Any tips or suggestions? Kelly No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1332 - Release Date: 3/17/2008 10:48 AM From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 17 21:48:30 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 03:48:30 +0100 Subject: Unknown Omnibus printer interface: Help needed In-Reply-To: <20080317211424.GC7297@usap.gov> References: <47DED477.2030003@hachti.de> <20080317211424.GC7297@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47DF2D7E.5050202@hachti.de> Hi, thanks for the reply! I kept on trying and.... The card is running! > No specific ideas, but there should be IOT selection jumpers > that may tell you if the card is responding to LP8E instructions > or not. > I'd look the defaults up, but I don't have satellite right > now, and I haven't memorized those IOTs. No, there is not even one jumper!!! This is hardwired to 66 but that worked immediately with the OS/8 printer driver. > If you look up the LP8E and check out the IOTs, you could try > writing a small program and issuing the one to send a byte to > the printer and check the activity on the Berg connector. That's what I did: First I found out that there are 7 data lines. There is an auxiliary line which is tied to ground. It can be optionally tied Vcc or the eighth bit. "Optionally" on this board means rubbing out a trace on the board and insert jumpers (it is prepared to do that). There is one other output line which comes through some open collectors drivers from a one-shot. I believed that should be a strobe. That turned out to be true. The polarity can be "optionally" inverted. There are two input signals. One going through buffers to the clock input of a 7474 flip flop. That has proved to be the acknowledge line. And the second input line is the active-low error line. After making some assumptions, I wrote a little PAL8 program (4 words) which prints AC and then waits for the flag. I measured on the connector and played with the ack signal. It worked fine and edge triggered. The error input has been tested manually. This is a Centronics interface, no Data Product interface... But I wanted to connect it to the Data Products 2230 printer (also sold as DEC LP05). I wired my interface to the Data Products printer via an also vintage custom build Centronics to Data Producs converter box. A "build" under OS/8, activating the printer handler, "DIR LPT:<" - and it printed! So I am happy now with another periperal... :-) Next step should be to organize rackmount paper tape reader and punch and OMNIBUS interface for them... >> Perhaps the card is a clone of a DEC standard card. So it would be >> interesting to get information about the term "CSI printer".... > > I don't recognize that term. Perhaps "CentronicS Interface"?? > >> P.S.: I could also need a DEC parallel printer card (Centronics or Data >> Products compatible) as well... > > Yuo didn't say what kind of -8, but if you have an -8/a with the > standard I/O cards installed, you can use the general purpose parallel > I/O on the DKC8AA as a parallel printer interface. There is supposed > to be a driver for OS/8 that knows about that ports IOTs and which > does the data bit inversion in software (since the DKC8AA is not set > up identically to the LP8E). I haven't tried to do it, but I've read > about it, and it sounds straightforward. I have two 8/e machines. An original card and direct cable to my printer would be a nice to have feature... > card, so you would need an LP8E or perhaps an LQP8E or similar. What is LPQ8E? And. Why do PAL, DIRECT etc. waste so much paper??? They send a ^L whenever there's an opportunity.... Best wishes, Philipp :-) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 17 23:49:22 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:49:22 -0700 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <01C88848.F567C2E0@mandr71> References: <01C88848.F567C2E0@mandr71> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > > ---------Original Message: > Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:21:46 -0400 > From: "Kelly Leavitt" > Subject: RE: S100 archive? > >> Does anyone recognize this archive as a mirror of other spots? >> >> http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static//S100/index.html >> >> It seems to be connected to majzel.com, registered to a >> Agata Majzel, Flat 22, 27 Hereford Road, London W2 4TQ. >> >> - John > > Seems like a case of > "My archive is bigger than your archive." > > I see stuff in here from a lot of different archives and personal web sites. > > Kelly > > ----------Reply: > > Is this a problem or do you just like to belittle someone's hard work? > Hi I think you miss the point. It is consider proper to credit the sources of such information. The work he has done is great and he has done it very well. There is just no mention of where he aquired much of it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Tue Mar 18 02:25:13 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:13 +1030 Subject: Motors for 14-in hard drives Message-ID: What size motor was typically used in a 14-in fixed drive, and what sort of mechanical interface did a disk pack have with the spindle or hub? I haven't been able to find any really clear pictures or diagrams of the mechanics of such units. -Bobby From gomesh at uol.com.br Mon Mar 17 04:32:12 2008 From: gomesh at uol.com.br (Henrique Gomes) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:32:12 -0300 Subject: PDP 11/93 + RSX 11M Message-ID: Dear Sir, I?m in trouble with the system as the boot stops at : RSX-11M - Plus V4.3 BL66 2044.KW System "Pt/Ps" > RED DU:=SY: when loading from RD53 (RZ 28M-E) and stops at: RSX-11M/RSX-11M Plus Standalone Copy System V03 when loading from RX33 (Brusys floppy) Do you have an idea why the boot does not go on? Thanks in advance, Henrique Gomes. From roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au Mon Mar 17 19:38:14 2008 From: roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au (Roman Szeremeta) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:38:14 +1100 Subject: Decmate References: <200803172253.m2HMrss32356@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <002501c88890$59c46350$0200a8c0@inspiron> David Thanks for the os78 source site - thats awesome! How does one normally get these images onto a disk? I' not sure if the older PCs supported 8"FDD. I would need something like Teledisk as well Roman ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Decmate > >I picked up a vt78, precursor to the Decmate, 10 years ago for the same >>amount! >>It is configured for WPS but apparently you can tweak it to run the OS. >>Anybody know how? >> > On mine I can put in an OS78 disk to boot its version of OS/8 or > WPS to boot WPS, no changes needed. Their were various rom packs that > go on the back. I don't know if some would make it only run WPS. > >>Is there software available for it? I thought I saw a reference to Basic >>being available for the vt78. >> > The standard OS78 has basic on it. See the os78 images on this page. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/images/images/os8.shtml > > Do you have anything that can write standard single density 8" disks? From tim at tim-mann.org Mon Mar 17 22:31:00 2008 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:31:00 -0700 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 Message-ID: <20080317203100.5450264f@venice.mumblefrotz.org> Sometimes the troglodyte approach to fixing keyboards works: just bang on the bad key for a while, and it may start to work again. Bang gently, of course -- don't take "troglodyte" too literally. :0) Also, on some types of keyboard, you can get at the contacts just by pulling off they keycap. I have no idea if any Model 4's used that type, though. Quite likely not. -- Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 18 03:49:03 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <20080317203100.5450264f@venice.mumblefrotz.org> References: <20080317203100.5450264f@venice.mumblefrotz.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Tim Mann wrote: > Sometimes the troglodyte approach to fixing keyboards works: just bang > on the bad key for a while, and it may start to work again. Bang > gently, of course -- don't take "troglodyte" too literally. :0) > > Also, on some types of keyboard, you can get at the contacts just by > pulling off they keycap. I have no idea if any Model 4's used that > type, though. Quite likely not. You can get at the contacts, but you'll have to desolder the entire switch first. I desoldered an entire PT210 keyboard, which uses the same keyswitches, and applied pcb-trace paint to the black rubber part. It works great now. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 18 04:28:52 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: stock tickers Message-ID: A big part of my involvement in classic computers comes from a fascination for antique machinery. For instance, I'm fascinated by old glass-domed stock tickers. Now, I can buy an exacting reproduction for some $25,000 or $3,000 from the stocktickercompany.com. That's way too pricey for me, so does anyone here know where I can get a fixer-upper? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 07:40:50 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:40:50 -0500 Subject: stock tickers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A big part of my involvement in classic computers comes from a fascination > for antique machinery. For instance, I'm fascinated by old glass-domed > stock tickers. Now, I can buy an exacting reproduction for some $25,000 > or $3,000 from the stocktickercompany.com. That's way too pricey for me, > so does anyone here know where I can get a fixer-upper? You will not be able to get a vintage fixer-upper for less than a grand or two. Stock tickers have been high demand/low supply antiques for many years, -- Will From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 18 12:08:07 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:08:07 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 games with VC8/VR14 display? Message-ID: <47DFF6F7.9050002@hachti.de> Hey folks, I am curious about the existence of PDP-8 games making use of a CRT display. Would be fun to have more than Spacewar... And: I found a SPCWR3.PA somewhere on the web. It has built in support for the LAB-8/e programmable real time clock. But... The clock doesn't generate interrupts, display is painted only on a key stroke. Anyone a clue? Best wishes, Philipp :-) From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Mar 18 13:25:06 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:25:06 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/93 + RSX 11M Message-ID: <47DFD0C2020000370002475E@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> > I?m in trouble with the system as the boot stops at : * RSX-11M - Plus V4.3 BL66 2044.KW System "Pt/Ps" * > RED DU:=SY: > when loading from RD53 (RZ 28M-E) > and stops at: * RSX-11M/RSX-11M Plus Standalone Copy System V03 > when loading from RX33 (Brusys floppy) > Do you have an idea why the boot does not go on? Most common cause for those symptoms is that the LTC (Line Time Clock aka "60 Hz" although probably "50 Hz" for you) clock is disabled. On a 11/93 in a BA23 or BA123, it might be disabled because of the little front panel DIP switches, or because the cable going to the front panel selectors switches fell off, or in the setup firmware on the processor board. I think the 11/93 can be configured to provide its own fake LTC interrupts from on-CPU-board crystal too (been a long time!) Tim. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Mar 18 13:46:28 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:46:28 -0300 Subject: S100 archive? References: <01C88848.F567C2E0@mandr71> <6.2.3.4.2.20080317152156.08524f38@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <013b01c88928$7c1afde0$150c010a@portajara> > The "World's Largest Ball of Saved Twine Bits" approach doesn't tell me > much. > If you take something from elsewhere, why not attribute? If you made > something yourself, why not tell me it's unique? I have some harsh words for that, but they do fit on this subject: Information is free. I have many articles that turned around the world. Most of then doesn't have my name anymore. Some sites just copied, ipsis leteris. Some sites changed my name to Alex or Al. Some said I allowed them to publish on their sites. And some are credited to another name. But who cares? I did many scans, published original circuits, many how-tos, thousands of photos and things maybe never seen. They are around the world. And so what? My objective was to make information free, to amuse people with new things and everyone get happy. Do you think someone will make a list like: file.pdf 102941 bytes copied from bitsavers file2.pdf 102384 bytes copied from sellam ismail file3.pdf 10938 bytes copied from msx.org who copied from speccy.org who copied from tabajara labs Hey people, why do you do the work? For personal promotion or to help people like you who needed this info sometime and didn't found it? Be cool...All my info is free and you can copy it however you want. Thanks if you keep my name near it. Thanks if not, but you spreaded the information for free. Wanna see me mad? Charge ANYTHING for my free info. You'll have a very mad man looking for you Greetings from Brazil Alexandre http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 18 13:54:08 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:54:08 -0700 Subject: Motors for 14-in hard drives In-Reply-To: <200803181800.m2II0f0i047710@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803181800.m2II0f0i047710@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47DFAD60.4092.6E9AD0@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:13 +1030 > From: Robert Nansel > What size motor was typically used in a 14-in fixed drive, and what sort > of mechanical interface did a disk pack have with the spindle or hub? I > haven't been able to find any really clear pictures or diagrams of the > mechanics of such units. Wait a sec--a "fixed disk" is just that--that medium is *not* removable. So, something like a Shugart SA-4000 is a fixed 14" disk drive. A drive using disk packs is a "removeable media" drive. Two birds of very different colors. Have a look at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/40823100D_853_Maint_Feb69.pdf for a manual on CDC's answer to the IBM 2311. There's a good description of the threaded-spindle pack mounting there, as well as the head-load mechanism. For a fixed 14" drive, have a look at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/39005-1_SA4000_OEM_Apr79.pdf Both use fractional-horsepower induction motors; the CDC drive uses a 3-phase motor that's probably somewhere around 1/3 hp (the specs don't say, but the start/run current ratings give a clue). The Shugart fixed drive uses a single-phase motor that's around 1/8 hp. Assuming that the motor can overcome the frictional losses and interia of the media assembly, the actual motor rating probably isn't terribly critical. Both use belt-drive. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Mar 18 14:04:57 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:04:57 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 games with VC8/VR14 display? In-Reply-To: <47DFF6F7.9050002@hachti.de> References: <47DFF6F7.9050002@hachti.de> Message-ID: <32449.1205867097@mini> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >Hey folks, > >I am curious about the existence of PDP-8 games making use of a CRT >display. Would be fun to have more than Spacewar... > >And: I found a SPCWR3.PA somewhere on the web. It has built in support >for the LAB-8/e programmable real time clock. But... The clock doesn't >generate interrupts, display is painted only on a key stroke. Anyone a clue? A long time ago there were a number of games for the VT01 written at Carleton College (in MN) for the PDP-8/L in a varient of FOCAL called COLPAC. The VT01 was a vector storage scope discussed here recently. I saw on ebay the other day a tray of tapes (which sold for an astounding price) one of which was something like "BYU boob tube" in COLPAC. It must have been a decus submission. I'd personally enjoy finding sources for COLPAC and some of the games if anyone has ever seen them. probably long gone... As I recall COLPAC ran on an 8/L with 8K. Some of the code was in the second field as well as the data. It had extensions to FOCAL to plot lines, arcs, circles and text. And to erase the screen. It had a built in font also which you could scale and you could input from that cool lost-in-space style joystick. The 8/L's were connect to a central 8/I running TSS/8 via a serial port. -brad From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 18 15:19:11 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:19:11 -0800 Subject: stock tickers References: Message-ID: <47E023BF.73932E22@cs.ubc.ca> David Griffith wrote: > A big part of my involvement in classic computers comes from a fascination > for antique machinery. For instance, I'm fascinated by old glass-domed > stock tickers. Now, I can buy an exacting reproduction for some $25,000 > or $3,000 from the stocktickercompany.com. That's way too pricey for me, > so does anyone here know where I can get a fixer-upper? ..tres cool. Going from their history pages, South America might be a better bet for an original: ".. It has also been reported that during World War II many of the Universal and self-winding tickers were scrapped for metal or sold off to businesses in South America." ".. In 1960, Western Union ordered all these remaining tickers destroyed" Does anybody know what the signalling technique (protocol) for these devices was? I've always been curious about this but never had a mechanism to peruse. My recollection from readings is that async bit-serial devices (tty, baudot codes & c.) ("automated telegraphy") were not really successful until into the 20th century, while these stock ticker networks were functioning decades before that. Looking at the photo gallery on the site and the apparent simplicity of the mechanism, I'm guessing it was just a series of pulses to increment/rotate the print wheel to select the character, followed by a pulse for a print hammer and to advance the tape. There would then be the question of whether it was separate circuits for the increment and print solenoids or whether there was some mechanism perhaps to separate an increment command from a print command sent over one circuit (such as shorter vs longer pulses). Technically, the other half of the system (sending/encoding equipment) would be just as interesting, but like some early fax equipment I have, where there was a similar one-to-many relationship, only a few of the many survive and next-to-none, if any, of the 'ones' have survived. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Mar 18 14:49:53 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:49:53 +0000 Subject: Motors for 14-in hard drives In-Reply-To: <200803181801.m2II0f0q047710@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803181801.m2II0f0q047710@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <79F37CA0-D68F-4E1A-B5B2-382569D4012E@microspot.co.uk> From: Robert Nansel > > What size motor was typically used in a 14-in fixed drive, and what > sort of mechanical interface did a disk pack have with the spindle or > hub? I haven't been able to find any really clear pictures or > diagrams of the mechanics of such units. I don't know, but I do know that they run up to more than their rated speed and then slow down so that they come online faster. There is a problem if you load a disc, realise its the wrong one, run the drive down, change the disc and power it up again. I did that once on an 80MB five high pack drive and burnt the motor out. It was on a GEC 4080 and I think the drive was a re-badged CDC one. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 18 15:49:36 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:49:36 -0700 Subject: S100 Archive Message-ID: <47E02AE0.3020804@bitsavers.org> > Do you think someone will make a list like: > > file.pdf 102941 bytes copied from bitsavers > file2.pdf 102384 bytes copied from sellam ismail no, what I would like to see is a file like: path/foo1.file MD5 sum of the file path/foo2.file MD5 sum of the file so I can write a script to trivially tell what is new/unique I can keep track of the provenance of the files just fine if you have a unique identifier (like an MD5 sum) in a simple text file at the top of the heirarchy. From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Mar 18 15:58:49 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:58:49 -0600 Subject: S100 Archive In-Reply-To: <47E02AE0.3020804@bitsavers.org> References: <47E02AE0.3020804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <47E02D09.6070407@Rikers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > I can keep track of the provenance of the files just fine if > you have a unique identifier (like an MD5 sum) in a simple text > file at the top of the hierarchy. Is there such a file on bitsavers? Just don't recall having seen one. I know of these: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/Index.txt http://bitsavers.org/pdf/IndexByDate.txt which are very useful. :) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 18 17:34:42 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:34:42 -0500 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: <01C8891E.753FD180@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:25:57 -0600 From: John Foust Subject: Re: S100 archive? At 03:06 PM 3/17/2008, M H Stein wrote: >>It's comments like yours that make some people ask why the hell they >>bother; I hope you don't have to grit your teeth one day and retrieve some >>elusive boot disk or manual from his site... >I didn't criticize it, and neither did Kelly as far as I saw. >I wanted to point it out to the group and determine whether it >was indeed a new trove or not. The site itself doesn't tell me >whether it's copied from elsewhere or not. That would make it >more useful and descriptive, wouldn't it? My mistake then; "Seems like a case of 'My archive is bigger than your archive.' and "I see stuff in here from a lot of different archives and personal web sites." struck me as critical and dismissive. Sorry if I misunderstood. I'd have thought something like, "Hey folks, I just ran across a site, etc. with lots of stuff, although some of it looks like unattributed copies from other sites; anybody know anything about it?" would express what you say above a little better. FWIW, it's been around for a few years and if this were the kind of bragging that "mine's bigger than yours" implies, I'd have thought it'd be better known by now. I couldn't care less whether he puts my name on the stuff I've scanned or copied and sent to him as long as it's out there and easy to find (and I'm a little PO'd about stuff I've sent to folks who promised to make it publicly available but never did AFAIK), and I don't see the need to put up yet another Web site of my own and fragment the resource even more. It might be different if I had a site and he copied it without my knowledge, but that'd be between him and me. If having their name mentioned is important to someone, let him or her send him an email. I don't see how attribution makes it any more useful or descriptive though; does it matter to you whether he scanned something or I did? The only attribution that matters to me is the "real" attribution, i.e. the name of the original company or publisher. Since some of the sites he copied from probably copied it from another site themselves, tracking down who actually "did the work" could be a lot of fun and extra work. >The "World's Largest Ball of Saved Twine Bits" approach doesn't tell me much. >If you take something from elsewhere, why not attribute? If you made >something yourself, why not tell me it's unique? >- John Guess I just don't get why it's so important to *you* where it came from as long as you can find it, unless it's material that you copied or scanned yourself. If pigs ever fly and someone actually wanted to thank the person who did the work after downloading something, they'd probably often have to sift through the various sites with identical copies anyway. Having said all that, although it'd be much extra work for thousands of files attribution would indeed be a courtesy and is the custom in this community; if it keeps you awake at night why not send Marcus an email instead of kvetching about it here, behind his back as it were. And thanks for the reminder; playing Al Y's "Biggest Ball of Twine in Minnesota" on my iTunes as I write... m From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 18 16:39:28 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <20080317203100.5450264f@venice.mumblefrotz.org> References: <20080317203100.5450264f@venice.mumblefrotz.org> Message-ID: <20080318143549.W75290@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Tim Mann wrote: > Sometimes the troglodyte approach to fixing keyboards works: just bang > on the bad key for a while, and it may start to work again. Bang > gently, of course -- don't take "troglodyte" too literally. :0) I had a model 3 with keyboard issues. I banged (gently) on one of the keys over and over, and eventually that key started to work. I put a Rochester Dynatyper (box of solenoids that converts a typewriter into a printer) on the keyboard, and dumped a lot of big text files to the printer interface. After a few hours of "typing", the keyboard was working satisfactorally. From amouses at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 16:53:34 2008 From: amouses at gmail.com (marcus bennett) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:53:34 +0100 Subject: S100 archive? replies marcus Message-ID: <007b01c88942$881280e0$983782a0$@com> Hi Kelly, To answer your comments from cctalk/cctech ... and to put things into context ... As a passionate computer person I have (over the last 5 years) tried to do something with my fond memories of the S100 days and in particular my Cromemco restoration project. I started to collect and scan my personal Cromemco documents and then some of the other peripherals and disks I was using. Before I knew it I was getting carried away and starting my own private archive. Things grew from there and I started to add other publically available archives. I don't store anything that I was not really involved or fascinated with. So for example DEC VAX and PDP stuff .. really no, the IBM VM370 CMS command guide ... really yes. The Cromemco RDOS 1.0 Instruction manual 1.0 .. I get a little misty eyed. The actual root of the S100 stuff is http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/index.html . Initially it was broadcast solely on port 8217 but now also on port 80 since people kept complaining about access (especially from behind corporate firewalls). Off topic is the fact that anybody who works with AIX, Backup, TSM, Storage or SAN should also be interested, since : your secret and my daily reference to the very best documentation in these areas. It's certainly not a bragging site and yes, some of the information is from other places, but it's a good reference for me and believe me I have spent hundreds of dollars and thousands of hours (yes really) producing high quality, text searchable PDF scans. I'm probably doing something wrong but uncle Google still does not index most of it correctly, but if you poke around there is a lot there. There is a CREDITS directory so if it's something that you'd like crediting or needs removing then you just have to ask. It seems the older I get the more nostalgia tugs harder and this is a good way to for me to remember the "good old days" when you perhaps felt you might understand it all from that TMS5501 on the TUART to the IOP Z80 code running to support those tightly offloaded processes, to the output to port FFH to switch the XPU from Z80 to 68010 mode or the rewiring and code insertion needed to support Tandon 8 inch drives over Persci under CDOS and CROMIX. Today I know too many software "experts" who never wrote a program let alone a compiler or hardware experts who never even used a soldering iron. It's shocking! And for the record (Ann and Kelly) , we absolutely love cats Kind regards, Marcus Bennett (and agata) From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 18 18:16:20 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:16:20 -0500 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: <01C88924.5208DE40@MSE_D03> ---------Original Message: Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:49:22 -0700 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: S100 archive? > From: dm561 at torfree.net > > ---------Original Message: > Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:21:46 -0400 > From: "Kelly Leavitt" > Subject: RE: S100 archive? > >> Does anyone recognize this archive as a mirror of other spots? >> >> http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static//S100/index.html >> >> It seems to be connected to majzel.com, registered to a >> Agata Majzel, Flat 22, 27 Hereford Road, London W2 4TQ. >> >> - John > > Seems like a case of > "My archive is bigger than your archive." > > I see stuff in here from a lot of different archives and personal web sites. > > Kelly > > ----------Reply: > > Is this a problem or do you just like to belittle someone's hard work? > Hi I think you miss the point. It is consider proper to credit the sources of such information. The work he has done is great and he has done it very well. There is just no mention of where he aquired much of it. Dwight ---------Reply: Well, as usual I think _you_ missed _my_ point: ;-) If you want to publicise the site here, fine. If you think his lack of attribution is self-serving, dishonest, discourteous, whatever, and it bothers you enough to write, then send an email to Marcus or the person who you think deserves mention (if you can find him/her), instead of bad-mouthing him here (since this is about courtesy, right?) m From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 18 16:55:10 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:55:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <20080317203100.5450264f@venice.mumblefrotz.org> from "Tim Mann" at Mar 17, 8 08:31:00 pm Message-ID: > > Sometimes the troglodyte approach to fixing keyboards works: just bang > on the bad key for a while, and it may start to work again. Bang > gently, of course -- don't take "troglodyte" too literally. :0) Be careful doing that on an M3 or M4 with the keyboard installed in the machine. In these amchiens the keyboard rests on 4 posts near the corners and is held down by the bezel, but there's a 5th post in the middle, under the PCB. Hitting the keyboard too hard can bend the fram enough for that last post to crack the PCB. How did I find that out? A medium sized transformer fell onto the keyboard of my M3 about 20 years ago, anf that post punched a nice hole through the SRBP board, ripping traces off in the process. I had to spend quite a time soldering wires between the switches to get it to work again. My M4 has not suffered the same way, I am a lot more careful now. > > Also, on some types of keyboard, you can get at the contacts just by > pulling off they keycap. I have no idea if any Model 4's used that > type, though. Quite likely not. Tbat sounds like the origianl M1 keyboard mechansim (also used in the DEC VT50 series, VT100s, HP85s, HP9816, TI99/4A, etc, etc, etc). I don't think any M4s used it. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 18 17:39:27 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <013b01c88928$7c1afde0$150c010a@portajara> References: <01C88848.F567C2E0@mandr71> <6.2.3.4.2.20080317152156.08524f38@mail.threedee.com> <013b01c88928$7c1afde0$150c010a@portajara> Message-ID: <20080318153420.F76557@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: > things and everyone get happy. Do you think someone will make a list like: > > file.pdf 102941 bytes copied from bitsavers > file2.pdf 102384 bytes copied from sellam ismail > file3.pdf 10938 bytes copied from msx.org who copied from speccy.org > who copied from tabajara labs I would contribute to help such a site. > Hey people, why do you do the work? For personal promotion or to help > people like you who needed this info sometime and didn't found it? "The purpose of the internet is for the free sharing and exchange of other people's intellectual property." ? > Wanna see me mad? Charge ANYTHING for my free info. You'll have a very > mad man looking for you THAT is a good argument for attribution and copyright. If you own the copyright, then YOU ('sposedly) control it and can make it free and prevent others from charging for it. If there is no attribution and copyright, then you have NO control over whether somebody else can charge for it. That is one reason why Richard Stallman has draconian copyright provisions. (You may not use ANYTHING of his if you include it in ANYTHING that will be sold - you may not copy one of his subroutines into a commercial product.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 18 17:31:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:31:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: stock tickers In-Reply-To: <47E023BF.73932E22@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Mar 18, 8 12:19:11 pm Message-ID: > Does anybody know what the signalling technique (protocol) for these devices > was? I've always been curious about this but never had a mechanism to peruse. > My recollection from readings is that async bit-serial devices (tty, baudot > codes & c.) ("automated telegraphy") were not really successful until into > the 20th century, while these stock ticker networks were functioning decades > before that. > > Looking at the photo gallery on the site and the apparent simplicity of the > mechanism, I'm guessing it was just a series of pulses to increment/rotate the > print wheel to select the character, followed by a pulse for a print hammer and > to advance the tape. There would then be the question of whether it was I beleive that is correct. I have some information in old books on telegraphy, I think there's a chapter on these fine machines in 'American Telegraphy and the Encyclopaedia of the Telegraph' (which was reprinted fairly recently). I will take a look. > separate circuits for the increment and print solenoids or whether there was some > mechanism perhaps to separate an increment command from a print command sent over > one circuit (such as shorter vs longer pulses). I think some were polarity-sensitive. A +ve pulse (say) stepped the print wheel, a -ve pusle fired the hammer and moved the tape. -tony From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 18 17:45:59 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:45:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed Message-ID: at home, 90: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4476240 _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Mar 18 17:54:58 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:54:58 -0000 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <20080318153420.F76557@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002301c8894b$18586d60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Fred Cisin wrote: > "The purpose of the internet is for the free sharing and exchange of > other people's intellectual property." ? To whom should you attribute? The corporation that originally produced the work or whoever scanned it? Even if you make use of (for example) DEC's (possibly limited) permission to make copies or even if you've gone so far as to ask for permission to make copies, I very much doubt that the originators of many of the copies on the net could claim any kind of ownership. I'd be happy with Al's suggestion of a top level MD5 file. That might save me from a large download of something I've already got, possibly from elsewhere, possibly under a different name. > If there is no attribution and copyright, then you have NO control > over whether somebody else can charge for it. That is one reason why > Richard Stallman has draconian copyright provisions. (You may not > use ANYTHING of his if you include it in ANYTHING that will be sold - > you may not copy one of his subroutines into a commercial product.) If RMS has some personal licence that is not the GPL, then you may be right. But if you mean the GPL, then you are wrong. I most certainly can charge for it and I can incorporate it into my software. I just have to comply with the terms of the licence (mostly making _all_ the sources available). If you want a "you can look and use but you cannot charge" licence then you'll have to find another one (or make one up). Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1332 - Release Date: 17/03/2008 10:48 From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Mar 18 18:11:48 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:11:48 -0500 Subject: Data I/O 29A vs. 29B Message-ID: >In order to support my classic computers I need a GOOD EPROM >Programmer (that puts it on topic ... ). > >I've used and like the Data I/O 29B but don't know squat about >the 29A. Are they about the same or is the 29A a POS ?? I have both the 29B and the 29A. The 29B is more capable, more common and in my opinion a better choice. Physically they look almost identical, but there are significant operational differences. According to the manual, the 29A can have a maximum of 16K of buffer memory - this would limit you to 16K or smaller devices (such as 27128), however my 29A came with 64K installed, and can do up to 64K devices (such as 27512). My 29B has 256k of buffer memory, which I believe is the max it can have, and this is enough for pretty much anything you are going to find in a classic computer. I don't use the 29A much - I got it mainly as a spare... but IIRC it either doesn't do automatic device identification, or does it in a more limited way... The 29B is quite good at it. This may be more more a function of the device adapter than the unit itself, which brings us to... Equally important is the device adapter that you get with the unit - you probably want one of the universal "unipak" adapters that supports many different devices. My 29A has a "Unipak2" and the 29B has a "Unipak2B". The 29B/Unipak2B combination can program many more devices. The family/pinout codes for the 29A/2 are only 2 digits where they are 3 digits on the 29B/2B. It would be worthwhile for you to get the device family/pinout code charts for the programming adapters offered with the units and look at the list of supported devices - this will give you an idea of the capability of the unit in question. You will also want to check the RAM installed in the unit, as it may be difficult to add (manuals reference expansion cards). The 29B shows the installed RAM at power-up. For the 29A you need to use the edit command to see how far up in memory you can modify. The 29B has more/better commands and functions as well, although the 29A is still a capable unit. >What would be a FAIR price for either ? Is it worth more to >opt for the 29B ?? Thanks. At the same/close price, I'd pick a 29B hands down. A 29A could still be a good choice if you get it cheap enough, and your needs don't require devices larger than it can do - be sure to check the installed RAM and device programming adapter. I have no idea what they are actually worth these days, but FYI - I paid $70 for my 29B quite a few years ago - it came with the Unipak2B and a Gangpak (lets you program up to 8 devices at once - I never use it). I picked up the 29A for $25 a couple of years ago, it came with the Unipak2. I've collected a fair bit of Data I/O documentation in PDF format, including manuals for both units, the programming adapters, and device family/pinout code charts for them. Contact me if you need anything. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 18 18:16:29 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <002301c8894b$18586d60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <002301c8894b$18586d60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <20080318160257.F76557@shell.lmi.net> > > "The purpose of the internet is for the free sharing and exchange of > > other people's intellectual property." ? On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > To whom should you attribute? The corporation that originally produced > the work or whoever scanned it? Even if you make use of (for example) yes, the "true" ownership is often not the current availability. Occasionally, a company will go ahead and explicitly move stuff to public domain. Unfortunately, many will never do that, and a significant part of what is available to us relies on the owner of the copyright not giving a shit. There is a popular [FALSE] myth that "abandonware" automagically becomes public domain. If I give somebody a copy of PC-DOS 1.00, then I rely on IBM and Microsoft not caring about the infringement. On the other hand, I have had to deal with people copying and selling copies of commercial software that I was still trying to pay the bills with. > If RMS has some personal licence that is not the GPL, then you may > be right. But if you mean the GPL, then you are wrong. I most certainly > can charge for it and I can incorporate it into my software. I just have > to > comply with the terms of the licence (mostly making _all_ the sources > available). My mistake, I was thinking in terms of his policies (and rants) in the 1980s. Did somebody eventually knock some sense into him? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 18 18:27:00 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:27:00 -0600 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <20080318160257.F76557@shell.lmi.net> References: <002301c8894b$18586d60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> <20080318160257.F76557@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47E04FC4.1030009@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > yes, the "true" ownership is often not the current availability. > Occasionally, a company will go ahead and explicitly move stuff to public > domain. Unfortunately, many will never do that, and a significant part of > what is available to us relies on the owner of the copyright not giving a > shit. There is a popular [FALSE] myth that "abandonware" automagically > becomes public domain. But if it is TRUE abandonware would you have a copywrite if you have no company? - > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Mar 18 18:30:47 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:30:47 -0000 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <20080318160257.F76557@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003001c88950$1b2ad500$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Fred Cisin wrote: > Occasionally, a company will go ahead and explicitly move stuff to > public domain. That would be once in a blue moon :-) > Unfortunately, many will never do that, and a The majority! > significant part of what is available to us relies on the owner of > the copyright not giving a shit. This is what we mostly rely on. At least some (like Agilent) seem to make a significant chunk of stuff available and even accept contributions. I'm not sure how they'd view redistribution, but for as long as their FTP site is up, that's probably not an issue. > My mistake, I was thinking in terms of his policies (and rants) in the > 1980s. IIRC his rants were that it should all be free (as in beer) ... I don't recall him ever saying that charging for stuff was bad, bad was just refusing to let someone else give away for free that for which you wished to charge. > Did somebody eventually knock some sense into him? Apparently not :-) Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1332 - Release Date: 17/03/2008 10:48 From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 18 18:33:55 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:33:55 -0500 Subject: stock tickers In-Reply-To: <47E023BF.73932E22@cs.ubc.ca> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080318183312.10261b18@localhost> Weren't they driven via a current loop with 5-level baudot? At 12:19 PM 2008-03-18 -0800, you wrote: >David Griffith wrote: > > A big part of my involvement in classic computers comes from a fascination > > for antique machinery. For instance, I'm fascinated by old glass-domed > > stock tickers. Now, I can buy an exacting reproduction for some $25,000 > > or $3,000 from the stocktickercompany.com. That's way too pricey for me, > > so does anyone here know where I can get a fixer-upper? > >..tres cool. > >Going from their history pages, South America might be a better bet for an >original: > ".. It has also been reported that during World War II many of the > Universal > and self-winding tickers were scrapped for metal or sold off to businesses > in South America." > ".. In 1960, Western Union ordered all these remaining tickers destroyed" > >Does anybody know what the signalling technique (protocol) for these devices >was? I've always been curious about this but never had a mechanism to peruse. >My recollection from readings is that async bit-serial devices (tty, baudot >codes & c.) ("automated telegraphy") were not really successful until into >the 20th century, while these stock ticker networks were functioning decades >before that. > >Looking at the photo gallery on the site and the apparent simplicity of the >mechanism, I'm guessing it was just a series of pulses to increment/rotate the >print wheel to select the character, followed by a pulse for a print >hammer and >to advance the tape. There would then be the question of whether it was >separate circuits for the increment and print solenoids or whether there >was some >mechanism perhaps to separate an increment command from a print command >sent over >one circuit (such as shorter vs longer pulses). > >Technically, the other half of the system (sending/encoding equipment) >would be >just as interesting, but like some early fax equipment I have, where there >was a >similar one-to-many relationship, only a few of the many survive and >next-to-none, >if any, of the 'ones' have survived. ----- 252. [Internet] WWW is the MS-DOS of hypertext systems... --Erik Naggum --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 18 18:37:01 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:37:01 -0500 Subject: Motors for 14-in hard drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080318183451.0d05add8@localhost> My boss used to run DG machines- their top-loader used a 3-phase AC motor. He told me today about the time an electrician wired the motor up with the phases wrong and it rotated in reverse, and apparently not quite fast enough. The drive would start to load the heads, then snap them back and go into fault. No one could figure out why. Then an older DG engineer asked, "which way is that drive rotating?" At 05:55 PM 2008-03-18 +1030, you wrote: >What size motor was typically used in a 14-in fixed drive, and what >sort of mechanical interface did a disk pack have with the spindle or >hub? I haven't been able to find any really clear pictures or >diagrams of the mechanics of such units. > >-Bobby ----- 977. Any teacher that can be replaced by a computer, deserves to be. -- David Thornburg --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Mar 18 19:37:54 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:37:54 -0000 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505(germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <004701c884f8$35ed2930$2601a8c0@JM3800> Message-ID: <003801c88959$79c075d0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> pichotjm wrote: > Hi, Be carefull! fr.comp.ordinosaures is in french. And this is somehow dangerous for my health :-) > The best way for you, > would be to subscribe to the news server Astraweb.com. You will have > to pay Actually an unrelated google search showed up "ordinosaure" on the French wikipedia and the very next link was google groups (or dejanews as I still like to think of it). 56000 messages ... I may be some time ... Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1332 - Release Date: 17/03/2008 10:48 From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Mar 18 20:38:11 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:38:11 -0800 Subject: Data I/O 29A vs. 29B References: Message-ID: <000501c88961$e4d9c850$0201a8c0@hal9000> > >In order to support my classic computers I need a GOOD EPROM > >Programmer (that puts it on topic ... ). > > > >I've used and like the Data I/O 29B but don't know squat about > >the 29A. Are they about the same or is the 29A a POS ?? > > I have both the 29B and the 29A. > > The 29B is more capable, more common and in my opinion a better choice. Physically they look almost > identical, but there are significant operational differences. > > According to the manual, the 29A can have a maximum of 16K of buffer memory - this would limit you > to 16K or smaller devices (such as 27128), however my 29A came with 64K installed, and can do up to > 64K devices (such as 27512). > > My 29B has 256k of buffer memory, which I believe is the max it can have, and this is enough for > pretty much anything you are going to find in a classic computer. > > I don't use the 29A much - I got it mainly as a spare... but IIRC it either doesn't do automatic > device identification, or does it in a more limited way... The 29B is quite good at it. This may be > more more a function of the device adapter than > the unit itself, which brings us to... > > Equally important is the device adapter that you get with the unit - you probably want one of the > universal "unipak" adapters that supports many different devices. > > My 29A has a "Unipak2" and the 29B has a "Unipak2B". The 29B/Unipak2B combination can program many > more devices. The family/pinout codes for the 29A/2 are only 2 digits where > they are 3 digits on the 29B/2B. It would be worthwhile for > you to get the device family/pinout code charts for the > programming adapters offered with the units and look at > the list of supported devices - this will give you an idea > of the capability of the unit in question. > > > You will also want to check the RAM installed in the unit, > as it may be difficult to add (manuals reference expansion > cards). The 29B shows the installed RAM at power-up. For the > 29A you need to use the edit command to see how far up in > memory you can modify. > > > The 29B has more/better commands and functions as well, > although the 29A is still a capable unit. > > > > >What would be a FAIR price for either ? Is it worth more to > >opt for the 29B ?? Thanks. > > At the same/close price, I'd pick a 29B hands down. A 29A > could still be a good choice if you get it cheap enough, and > your needs don't require devices larger than it can do - be > sure to check the installed RAM and device programming adapter. > > > I have no idea what they are actually worth these days, but > FYI - I paid $70 for my 29B quite a few years ago - it came > with the Unipak2B and a Gangpak (lets you program up to 8 > devices at once - I never use it). I picked up the 29A for > $25 a couple of years ago, it came with the Unipak2. > > > I've collected a fair bit of Data I/O documentation in PDF > format, including manuals for both units, the programming > adapters, and device family/pinout code charts for them. > Contact me if you need anything. > > > Dave Thank you Dave ! Best regards, Steven From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 19:44:29 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:44:29 -0400 Subject: PCB EAGLE CAD and simple Z80 computer design Message-ID: <002e01c8895a$64043b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am interested in making a simple Z80 computer. I would like to use a CAD program, preferably one with autorouting, to design a PCB for it rather than use prototype boards. Eagle PCB CAD looks promising but I have no experience in using a PCB CAD program. As this is a hobby, I'd like to keep the costs less than $200. The hobbyist license costs $125 which would be ideal. http://www.cadsoftusa.com/ I tried Kicad but it did not work very well for me. I was able to layout the schematic but the PCB layout was very complex and many of the parts were not supported correctly. I was not able to get the autorouting feature to work well either. Has any one use the Eagle CAD program to make a simple SBC and can offer some advice on how to do make my own PCB for a Z80 SBC? I'd like to start small so here is the circuit I have selected: http://z80.info/gfx/z80test.gif Has anyone done this and would be willing to advise and/or work on a Z80 SBC project? Thanks! Andrew Lynch PS, I think this is "on topic" since Z80 SBCs are definitely "classic computers" like in NorthStar, KayPro, WaveMate, Zenith, Vector Graphic, etc. From rcini at optonline.net Tue Mar 18 19:56:25 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:56:25 -0400 Subject: PCB EAGLE CAD and simple Z80 computer design In-Reply-To: <002e01c8895a$64043b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On 3/18/08 8:44 PM, "Andrew Lynch" wrote: > Hi, > > I am interested in making a simple Z80 computer. I would like to use a CAD > program, preferably one with autorouting, to design a PCB for it rather than > use prototype boards. > I actually use DipTrace for the schematic capture -- they have a non-commercial license for $145. The capture program is good but the autorouter is not so good. On the upside, it has a lot of netlist export formats. So, I import the netlist in to ExpressPCB and use that to make the board. The only thing to watch out for is differences in component footprint designations between the programs, causing some components to drop during import if they're not remapped properly. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From djg at pdp8.net Tue Mar 18 19:56:54 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:56:54 -0400 Subject: Decmate Message-ID: <200803190056.m2J0usT05895@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >Thanks for the os78 source site - thats awesome! How does one normally get >these images onto a disk? I' not sure if the older PCs supported 8"FDD. >I would need something like Teledisk as well. > With earlier 8's which you can manually load code into I have dump and restore programs you can use. On the VT78 their is no way I know of to get code into it without a special ROM on the back. Some older PC's controllers will work with 8" disks. I tried it so I could format but never got it working before I got a drive that could format itself. Don't know if its the PC or drive I was trying to use. PUTR looks like it should work http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/. I have used it for RX50 disks but not 8". I think the images I have are compatible with it. This may also work but I am not familiar with it. http://www.dunfield.com/dave/dsktools.htm If this doesn't seem practical email me, I can make you a disk. Won't guarantee how prompt though. From djg at pdp8.net Tue Mar 18 20:11:59 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:11:59 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 games with VC8/VR14 display? Message-ID: <200803190111.m2J1BxJ06576@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >I am curious about the existence of PDP-8 games making use of a CRT >display. Would be fun to have more than Spacewar... > I haven't found much. The Kaleidoscope was fun to play with. Its in the 8E small computer handbook page 7-51 (page 53 of scan below) http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=126 Java version at http://www.scoundrelspoint.com/kaleidoscope/index.html for people who don't have a VC8E. I have a tape of PDP-12 games online that I though about porting but haven't. They seem to be mostly 8 code (binary only). >And: I found a SPCWR3.PA somewhere on the web. It has built in support >for the LAB-8/e programmable real time clock. But... The clock doesn't >generate interrupts, display is painted only on a key stroke. Anyone a clue? > Are you sure you set the defines correct when you built it to select that clock? That your clock is working? I would either manually check out the clock or run the diagnostics. I have run it but using the 60hz clock. http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=dk8e&stype=Partial+Word&dtype=Document+Sets&submit=Submit+Query See dhdkaa.dg http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/diagpack2.rk05;sort=name From djg at pdp8.net Tue Mar 18 20:19:34 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:19:34 -0400 Subject: Motors for 14-in hard drives Message-ID: <200803190119.m2J1JYj06870@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >What size motor was typically used in a 14-in fixed drive, and what >sort of mechanical interface did a disk pack have with the spindle or >hub? I haven't been able to find any really clear pictures or >diagrams of the mechanics of such units. > The RK05 is a single platter 14" drive with the platter magnetically held on the spindle. Pictures here. http://www.pdp8online.com/rk05/rk05.shtml From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Mar 18 20:21:44 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCB EAGLE CAD and simple Z80 computer design In-Reply-To: <002e01c8895a$64043b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <002e01c8895a$64043b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I am interested in making a simple Z80 computer. I would like to use a CAD > program, preferably one with autorouting, to design a PCB for it rather than > use prototype boards. > > Eagle PCB CAD looks promising but I have no experience in using a PCB CAD > program. As this is a hobby, I'd like to keep the costs less than $200. > The hobbyist license costs $125 which would be ideal. Have you looked at gEDA? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Mar 18 20:48:17 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:48:17 -0400 Subject: Emailing: PCB EAGLE CAD and simple Z80 computer design.htm Message-ID: <000001c88963$4eca5670$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I am interested in making a simple Z80 computer. I would like to use a CAD > program, preferably one with autorouting, to design a PCB for it rather than > use prototype boards. > > Eagle PCB CAD looks promising but I have no experience in using a PCB CAD > program. As this is a hobby, I'd like to keep the costs less than $200. > The hobbyist license costs $125 which would be ideal. Have you looked at gEDA? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ________________________________ -----REPLY----- Hi Dave, I did try gEDA about a year ago and I recall having problems finding the Zilog chips supported by the library. Maybe that has changed? I downloaded the Eagle freeware version just to test drive it. I was able to make a rough layout of the SBC with out the chips placed on the schematic. Of course, I would still have to connect all the wires and such but at least the bare minimum components seem to be present and supported. It even gave a crude layout of the PCB, again with no traces due to no connections. Even with that simple Z80 SBC, it exceeded the capacity of the Eagle free version PCB. Has anyone used gEDA to make a simple Z80 SBC or something like it? Thanks! Andrew Lynch From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 18 20:56:53 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:56:53 -0600 Subject: PCB EAGLE CAD and simple Z80 computer design In-Reply-To: References: <002e01c8895a$64043b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <47E072E5.5000302@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am interested in making a simple Z80 computer. I would like to use a CAD >> program, preferably one with autorouting, to design a PCB for it rather than >> use prototype boards. > Have you looked at gEDA? For the windows people: http://www.freepcb.com/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Mar 18 20:55:04 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:55:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 games with VC8/VR14 display? In-Reply-To: <200803190111.m2J1BxJ06576@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200803190111.m2J1BxJ06576@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: Speaking of which, I wish I could get Trek7 restored (old fortran lots of problems) from pre 77 I also have the original printouts source code for Empire and Zork from the 70's as well as Adventure. Ah those were the days. I even "converted" an old 70's fortran game called "The New Castle" to the PC. Though "converted" is not the right word, basically re-written from the ground up using parts of source code, games, etc ah to play text games on a DEC teletype, that was fun Dan. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:11:59 -0400 > From: djg at pdp8.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: PDP-8 games with VC8/VR14 display? > >>I am curious about the existence of PDP-8 games making use of a CRT >>display. Would be fun to have more than Spacewar... >> > I haven't found much. The Kaleidoscope was fun to play with. > Its in the 8E small computer handbook page 7-51 (page 53 of scan below) > > http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=126 > > Java version at http://www.scoundrelspoint.com/kaleidoscope/index.html for > people who don't have a VC8E. > > I have a tape of PDP-12 games online that I though about porting but haven't. > They seem to be mostly 8 code (binary only). > >>And: I found a SPCWR3.PA somewhere on the web. It has built in support >>for the LAB-8/e programmable real time clock. But... The clock doesn't >>generate interrupts, display is painted only on a key stroke. Anyone a clue? >> > Are you sure you set the defines correct when you built it to select > that clock? That your clock is working? > I would either manually check out the clock or run the diagnostics. > I have run it but using the 60hz clock. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=dk8e&stype=Partial+Word&dtype=Document+Sets&submit=Submit+Query > See dhdkaa.dg > http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/diagpack2.rk05;sort=name > _________________________________________________________________ Spread the Love by installing 30 free Messenger Emoticons. Get them now! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/212 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 18 21:05:00 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:05:00 -0600 Subject: PCB EAGLE CAD and simple Z80 computer design In-Reply-To: References: <002e01c8895a$64043b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <47E074CC.5040103@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am interested in making a simple Z80 computer. I would like to use a CAD >> program, preferably one with autorouting, to design a PCB for it rather than >> use prototype boards. Try google - you may find a Z80 PCB already done. Does anybody still make a CP/M Z80 card? From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 18 21:04:53 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:04:53 -0700 Subject: Emailing: PCB EAGLE CAD and simple Z80 computer design.htm In-Reply-To: <000001c88963$4eca5670$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000001c88963$4eca5670$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <3AA298D4-4477-461C-8DDC-6EAFBD8D87F8@shiresoft.com> On Mar 18, 2008, at 6:48 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > Hi Dave, > I did try gEDA about a year ago and I recall having problems finding > the > Zilog chips supported by the library. Maybe that has changed? > > I downloaded the Eagle freeware version just to test drive it. I > was able > to make a rough layout of the SBC with out the chips placed on the > schematic. > > Of course, I would still have to connect all the wires and such but > at least > the bare minimum components seem to be present and supported. It > even gave > a crude layout of the PCB, again with no traces due to no connections. > > Even with that simple Z80 SBC, it exceeded the capacity of the Eagle > free > version PCB. > I've been using the professional version of EagleCAD for a number of years now and have been very happy with it. I've also been testing the Beta version of 5.0 (which should be out any day now) and I've found I can't go back to 4.1 (5.0 is *so* much better). So I find I'm not working on my projects until 5.0 is *done*. A couple of things about EagleCAD: It works on all of the popular OS' (Windows, Linux and Mac OS X). Since it generates Gerber files, you aren't limited to what board house you can have your project fabbed at. TTFN - Guy From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 18 21:37:54 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:37:54 -0400 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <47E04FC4.1030009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200803190239.m2J2dZ1i086736@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:27:00 -0600, woodelf wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: >> yes, the "true" ownership is often not the current availability. >> Occasionally, a company will go ahead and explicitly move stuff to public >> domain. Unfortunately, many will never do that, and a significant part of >> what is available to us relies on the owner of the copyright not giving a >> shit. There is a popular [FALSE] myth that "abandonware" automagically >> becomes public domain. >But if it is TRUE abandonware would you have a copywrite if you have no company? >- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com In the case of very hard to prove "true" abondonware, the rights reverts back to the author, photographer or artist of the origional work. The only person who has any residual claim is the origional creator. The idea that someone thinks they have a claim to an unauthorized scan or copy is delusional and not founded in fact or for that matter any law I am aware of. FYI: Here in the US copyright is implied on everything published unless stated othewise. The silly (c) copyright statement is not necessary, recomended but not required. Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 18 22:00:03 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <200803190239.m2J2dZ1i086736@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200803190239.m2J2dZ1i086736@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20080318194945.S88639@shell.lmi.net> > >Fred Cisin wrote: > >But if it is TRUE abandonware would you have a copywrite if you have no company? I did NOT write that. I have seen way too many assholes declare that stuff was "abandonware" and in the public domain, because they didn't know how or where to contact the original author. Hint: lack of results from a single Google query is insufficient to prove that nobody claims ownership. > FYI: Here in the US copyright is implied on everything published unless stated othewise. > The silly (c) copyright statement is not necessary, recomended but not required. Since the USA joined the Berne convention. Prior to that, "the silly (c) copyright statement" was ESSENTIAL. That played a significant role in the Intel V NEC case. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 18 22:18:34 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:18:34 -0600 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <20080318194945.S88639@shell.lmi.net> References: <200803190239.m2J2dZ1i086736@keith.ezwind.net> <20080318194945.S88639@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47E0860A.1050606@jetnet.ab.ca> > I did NOT write that. Woodelf did. > I have seen way too many assholes declare that stuff was "abandonware" and > in the public domain, because they didn't know how or where to contact the > original author. Hint: lack of results from a single Google query is > insufficient to prove that nobody claims ownership. I was thinking of a case, but no real ones come to mind since the example companies are still around. The example I was thinking of was a custom DOS for a 8088 machine I had got about 1996. That problem is I got some floppies but no DOS system disk. I ended tossing the machine, since I could not get a DOS system disk for formating floppies and stuff. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 18 22:18:45 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <002301c8894b$18586d60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <002301c8894b$18586d60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <200803190321.XAA03178@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But if you mean the GPL, then [...] I most certainly can charge for > it and I can incorporate it into my software. I just have to comply > with the terms of the licence (mostly making _all_ the sources > available). For GPL v1 and v2, yes. For v3, I'd hazard the opinion that nobody except the FSF's lawyers (and probably not even them, until some case law is made) knows what is permitted; the thing is a Byzantine morass, and I strongly recommend anyone contemplating doing anything it affects actually read it rather than just assuming it's an evolutionary step from GPLv2. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 18 23:40:18 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:40:18 -0800 Subject: stock tickers References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080318183312.10261b18@localhost> Message-ID: <47E09932.80C73B29@cs.ubc.ca> Tom Peters wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > >Does anybody know what the signalling technique (protocol) for these devices > >was? I've always been curious about this but never had a mechanism to peruse. > > Weren't they driven via a current loop with 5-level baudot? I do believe I addressed that in the message which you were replying to: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > >My recollection from readings is that async bit-serial devices (tty, baudot > >codes & c.) ("automated telegraphy") were not really successful until into > >the 20th century, while these stock ticker networks were functioning decades > >before that. Also: > >Looking at the photo gallery on the site and the apparent simplicity of the > >mechanism ... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 18 22:52:57 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <47E0860A.1050606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803190239.m2J2dZ1i086736@keith.ezwind.net> <20080318194945.S88639@shell.lmi.net> <47E0860A.1050606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080318204511.E88639@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, woodelf wrote: > I was thinking of a case, but no real ones come to mind since the example > companies are still around. The example I was thinking of was a custom > DOS for a 8088 machine I had got about 1996. That problem is I got some > floppies but no DOS system disk. I ended tossing the machine, since I > could not get a DOS system disk for formating floppies and stuff. I had one model 1 TRS-80 with Omikron CP/M and hardware mods. I had another one, with Parasitic Engineering CP/M and hardware mods. But, I had no CP/M system disk for the Parasitic Engineering system. I located Howard Fullmer of the defunct Parasitic Engineering (he went to Morrow) He would not give me a system disk unless I purchased the entire retail package (including the hardware mods). His legal right. Intellectual property can be transferred to another owner, or even inherited. When George Morrow died, his estate owned his intellectual property, including "Quotations from Chairman Morrow". Fortunately, his relatives released "quotations" into public domain. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Mar 19 00:21:46 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:21:46 -0500 Subject: PCB EAGLE CAD and simple Z80 computer design In-Reply-To: <002e01c8895a$64043b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <002e01c8895a$64043b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <47E0A2EA.9060102@jbrain.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Has any one use the Eagle CAD program to make a simple SBC and can offer > some advice on how to do make my own PCB for a Z80 SBC? I'd like to start > small so here is the circuit I have selected: > I have not designed an SBC with it, but I use it extensively, and I like it. I tried a bunch of different ones when I first started, and I thought EAGLE provided the best value and community support for the price. It's also nice that many board houses will take EAGLE brd files directly, saving the designer a step of creating Gerbers and NC Drill files. Jim From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Mar 19 03:27:18 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:27:18 +0000 Subject: stock tickers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080318183312.10261b18@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080318183312.10261b18@localhost> Message-ID: <1205915238.29726.10.camel@elric> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 18:33 -0500, Tom Peters wrote: = > 252. [Internet] WWW is the MS-DOS of hypertext systems... --Erik Naggum Simple, reliable, and easy enough to get your head around in an afternoon? Gordon From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Mar 18 15:04:25 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:04:25 -0700 Subject: Manual/Docs/Help for Micro-Term Ergo 201? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47E02049.3080409@msu.edu> Figured it out, finally. Should have thought of it earlier, but this terminal is sort of a rip-off of the VT100 (which is odd, since it emulates a VT52). The Setup menus are similar, the keyboard is similar (has the Setup A/B, Toggle 1/0, etc... key superscripts above the number keys). So you press Shift-S while in the Setup menu to save the settings, just like on a VT100. Thanks, Josh Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> >> That's what I would have thought, too, but there isn't any battery that >> I can see on the PCB (nor does it look like there has ever been one). >> Were there other methods for storing settings aside from battery-backed ram? >> > > How about an EAROM? I think that's what the VT100 uses. Is there an > ER1400 chip? > > It is, of course, possible that the battery is elsewhere in the machine. > Maybe in the PSU area? > > -tony > > > From elromano1989 at wp.pl Tue Mar 18 16:36:22 2008 From: elromano1989 at wp.pl (roman.frankowski) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:36:22 +0100 Subject: Fw: TI-74 S calculator Message-ID: <001001c88940$1c810970$52e31653@f5c88a79fc4c14> ----- Original Message ----- From: roman.frankowski To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:27 PM Subject: TI-74 S calculator Hello !!! I've got a calculator TI-74 S, and I don't have a instruction of this calculator. So, can You sent in my mail all about TI-74 S??? From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 19 04:42:12 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:42:12 +0100 Subject: TI-74 S calculator References: <001001c88940$1c810970$52e31653@f5c88a79fc4c14> Message-ID: <000a01c889a5$82814c20$0501a8c0@xp1800> Look here www.datamath.org -Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "roman.frankowski" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:36 PM Subject: Fw: TI-74 S calculator > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: roman.frankowski > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:27 PM > Subject: TI-74 S calculator > > > Hello !!! I've got a calculator TI-74 S, and I don't have a instruction of > this calculator. So, can You sent in my mail all about TI-74 S??? > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Mar 19 05:23:05 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:23:05 -0400 Subject: pdp-8 tapes on ebay Message-ID: <10380.1205922185@mini> I suppose there's little chance the person who just bought the pdp-8 paper tapes on ebay is on this list. but if you are, could you read them make and them available on the web? thanks, -brad From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 19 06:58:41 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:58:41 -0500 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: <01C88992.8098FEC0@mandr71> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: S100 archive? >On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Hey people, why do you do the work? For personal promotion or to help >> people like you who needed this info sometime and didn't found it? >"The purpose of the internet is for the free sharing and exchange of other >people's intellectual property." ? I wouldn't call a scan or photocopy of a manual "intellectual property." How about: "One of the goals of the Classic Computer community is the preservation and free sharing and exchange of documentation and media related to obsolete computer systems, with the assumed or explicit permission of the original owner of the intellectual property." m From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 08:55:43 2008 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:55:43 +0100 Subject: Apollo Domain 300 series in UK looking home Message-ID: Hi: This is in the newsgroups: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.apollo/browse_thread/thread/a53796e91c514447?hl=en# Paco From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 19 09:00:09 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <01C88992.8098FEC0@mandr71> References: <01C88992.8098FEC0@mandr71> Message-ID: <200803191403.KAA08248@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I wouldn't call a scan or photocopy of a manual "intellectual > property." The law does, at least in most jurisdictions. (Well, strictly, a manual, or a scan or photocopy thereof, *embodies* IP, rather than *being* IP. But that's a distinction not very relevant to the discussion at hand.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Mar 19 09:41:05 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:41:05 +0000 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed Message-ID: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Clarke was an early user of KayPro lugables. >From: Randy Dawson >Subject: OT: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed >at home, 90: >http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4476240 From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 19 10:03:42 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:03:42 -0700 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Clarke was an early user of KayPro lugables. Clarke was a fan of Wang Laboratories' 300-Series electronic calculators: http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/x-wacclarke.html It is sad that he has passed on. He was a brilliant, visionary man that, luckily for us, left a legacy of great writings that will live on. Rick Bensene From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 19 10:12:55 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:12:55 -0600 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> Rick Bensene wrote: > It is sad that he has passed on. He was a brilliant, visionary man > that, luckily for us, left a legacy of great writings that will live on. True. But if I remember authors right, 2001 never did come true. > Rick Bensene > > > . > From dan at ekoan.com Wed Mar 19 11:44:22 2008 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:44:22 -0500 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080319114302.0ad3aeb0@mail.marcal.com> At 10:03 AM 3/19/08, you wrote: > > Clarke was an early user of KayPro lugables. > >Clarke was a fan of Wang Laboratories' 300-Series electronic >calculators: He was also a fan of Hewlett-Packard's 9100 calculator: http://hp9100.com/#clarke --Dan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 19 12:01:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:01:58 -0600 Subject: Decmate In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:56:54 -0400. <200803190056.m2J0usT05895@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: In article <200803190056.m2J0usT05895 at h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > >Thanks for the os78 source site - thats awesome! How does one normally get > >these images onto a disk? I' not sure if the older PCs supported 8"FDD. > >I would need something like Teledisk as well. > > > With earlier 8's which you can manually load code into I have dump > and restore programs you can use. On the VT78 their is no way I > know of to get code into it without a special ROM on the back. The DECmate II (VT100 housing) has the ability to download code into the PDP-8 through the terminal port via a special control sequence. I haven't tried it on mine yet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Mar 19 12:38:44 2008 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:38:44 +0000 Subject: Z80 emulator in perl In-Reply-To: <47DD2E4F.6020301@gmail.com> References: <20080313105131.GA30309@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <47DD2E4F.6020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080319173844.GA2497@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 09:27:27AM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > David Cantrell wrote: > >Dunno if this will be considered on-topic or not, as it's not about real > >hardware - if not, my humble apologies. > OK, that's insane. :-) I'll take that as a compliment :-) > I just stumbled across an entire ZX Spectrum emulator written in perl this > morning: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/perl-spectrum > (no idea if it works - I've not got any perl support on this box) It appears to - at least, Jet Set Willy works. That's very impressive! -- David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club" I hate baby seals. They get asked to all the best clubs. From mardy at voysys.com Wed Mar 19 13:31:02 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:31:02 -0400 Subject: Expanding RAM on Data I/O 29B Message-ID: <310E0EA1-4DC1-463D-BEBD-A4F1FA13F8E1@voysys.com> I have a working Data I/O 29B with a 128K RAM module which only had half of the DRAM sockets populated. From looking at the schematic, it seemed that by simply populating the remaining DRAM sockets that I would bring the module up to the full 128K. I tried that, but the 29B still only reports 64K of RAM. What did I miss? -Mardy From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 19 14:06:05 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <01C88992.8098FEC0@mandr71> References: <01C88992.8098FEC0@mandr71> Message-ID: <20080319120214.O22856@shell.lmi.net> > >"The purpose of the internet is for the free sharing and exchange of other > >people's intellectual property." ? On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, M H Stein wrote: > I wouldn't call a scan or photocopy of a manual "intellectual property." I'd be interested in hearing more of your definition of "intellectual property". It seems to be different from that used by the USA legal system, in which a copyrighted manual IS an embodiment of intellectual property, as is any reproduction, particularly scan or photocopy. > How about: > "One of the goals of the Classic Computer community is the preservation > and free sharing and exchange of documentation and media related to > obsolete computer systems, with the assumed or explicit permission of > the original owner of the intellectual property." Sounds good. "There is even some stuff on the internet besides pornography!" From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 19 14:25:07 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:25:07 -0400 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <01C88992.8098FEC0@mandr71> Message-ID: <200803191926.m2JJQnPA084537@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:58:41 -0500, M H Stein wrote: >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:39:27 -0700 (PDT) >From: Fred Cisin >Subject: Re: S100 archive? >>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >>> Hey people, why do you do the work? For personal promotion or to help >>> people like you who needed this info sometime and didn't found it? >>"The purpose of the internet is for the free sharing and exchange of other >>people's intellectual property." ? > >I wouldn't call a scan or photocopy of a manual "intellectual property." >How about: >"One of the goals of the Classic Computer community is the preservation >and free sharing and exchange of documentation and media related to >obsolete computer systems, with the assumed or explicit permission of >the original owner of the intellectual property." >m Sounds good to me, I would reword it to read ... "... with the assumed or explicit permission of intellectual property owners of record." And then add ..... "If any intellectual property owners feel abused by this, then by all means speek up and place your concerns on the record, so they may be addressed." I think I will add that to my BS: page, I kinda think it says it all. But just my 2 cents .... Bob From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Mar 19 14:26:10 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:26:10 -0500 Subject: Expanding RAM on Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <310E0EA1-4DC1-463D-BEBD-A4F1FA13F8E1@voysys.com> Message-ID: <1142413E06B7@dunfield.com> > I have a working Data I/O 29B with a 128K RAM module which only had > half of the DRAM sockets populated. From looking at the schematic, it > seemed that by simply populating the remaining DRAM sockets that I > would bring the module up to the full 128K. I tried that, but the 29B > still only reports 64K of RAM. What did I miss? One of the manuals that I have says that the expansion board provides up to 64K of memory, and that "future expansion" will allow up to 128k of memory. Later on, it says: "64K or 128K (future) configuration is selected by the programming of PAL, U22". So this could be one issue. It could also be firmware related - you probably want to have the latest firmware installed (IIRC 6?). Later versions of the 29B supported up to 256K of RAM. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 19 14:31:48 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Expanding RAM on Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <1142413E06B7@dunfield.com> References: <1142413E06B7@dunfield.com> Message-ID: What's the difference between the 29A and 29B? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 19 14:39:40 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:39:40 -0400 Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <20080319120214.O22856@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200803191941.m2JJf9rU086090@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: >On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, M H Stein wrote: >> I wouldn't call a scan or photocopy of a manual "intellectual property." >I'd be interested in hearing more of your definition of "intellectual >property". It seems to be different from that used by the USA legal >system, in which a copyrighted manual IS an embodiment of intellectual >property, as is any reproduction, particularly scan or photocopy. I think we are in agreement that the IP value of the copy remains with the origional holder and does not transfer to the maker of holder of the copy. It gets trickey when dealing with a photograph of an item. Is the image the rights of the photographer or remain the rights of the creator of the photographed item. Before you answer check out the Rocking Roll Hall of Fame case. Case law has shown that without a release the local photographer could not sell his posters. in this case the RRHOF Inc had an exclusive with the gift shop and the local guy was cutting into their sales. Back under my rock ... Bob From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 19 14:47:18 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:47:18 -0400 Subject: Expanding RAM on Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <310E0EA1-4DC1-463D-BEBD-A4F1FA13F8E1@voysys.com> References: <310E0EA1-4DC1-463D-BEBD-A4F1FA13F8E1@voysys.com> Message-ID: <47E16DC6.20306@mdrconsult.com> Marden P. Marshall wrote: > I have a working Data I/O 29B with a 128K RAM module which only had half > of the DRAM sockets populated. From looking at the schematic, it seemed > that by simply populating the remaining DRAM sockets that I would bring > the module up to the full 128K. I tried that, but the 29B still only > reports 64K of RAM. What did I miss? I don't have the links on hand, but there's a hack to bring it up to either 256KB or 1MB; I disremember which. I do remember that the resistors on the memory board need to be moved to ID the new DRAMs. Ah, here is the old link: http://www.leopardcats.com/dio/upgrade.htm And I did happen to have that archived. So: http://www.mdrconsult.com/~doc/upgrade.htm Not mine, and I haven't had time to try it, so yer on yer own! And if the creator of that page is on the list, I can leave it up or take it down as you wish. Doc From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 14:57:58 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:57:58 +0000 Subject: FTGH: SGI 14" monitor (yes, really) - Yorks UK Message-ID: Hi cctech'ers, I have an SGI 14" monitor here which needs a new home. Yes, it really is a 13W3 monitor this small. Type number is Wyse WY-851, and it has the "old style" SGI logo plus the "Silicon Graphics" wording on the front. I can ship this anywhere in the UK (except highlands, islands and NI) for 8 GBP, you pay PayPal fees. I'll ship internationally if anyone is desperate for it, but it's likely to cost you more than $100US, so you'd have to be pretty keen. If it's not gone fairly soon it'll end up going to the recycler. Please drop me a mail if you'd like it. Ed. From mardy at voysys.com Wed Mar 19 15:05:00 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:05:00 -0400 Subject: Expanding RAM on Data I/O 29B In-Reply-To: <1142413E06B7@dunfield.com> References: <1142413E06B7@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <67976A47-AA1E-4E61-984B-9AB11C55B9CB@voysys.com> On Mar 19, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I have a working Data I/O 29B with a 128K RAM module which only had >> half of the DRAM sockets populated. From looking at the schematic, >> it >> seemed that by simply populating the remaining DRAM sockets that I >> would bring the module up to the full 128K. I tried that, but the >> 29B >> still only reports 64K of RAM. What did I miss? > > One of the manuals that I have says that the expansion board > provides up > to 64K of memory, and that "future expansion" will allow up to 128k of > memory. > > Later on, it says: "64K or 128K (future) configuration is selected by > the programming of PAL, U22". So this could be one issue. U22 is the address decode logic, so that makes sense. Changing it is an altogether different problem though. > > > It could also be firmware related - you probably want to have the > latest > firmware installed (IIRC 6?). Later versions of the 29B supported up > to > 256K of RAM. Are upgraded firmware images available anywhere? > > > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: > www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 19 15:07:27 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autonetics D37 ? In-Reply-To: <1142413E06B7@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <280654.32678.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I picked up what I believe is a console from an Autonetics model D-37 Minuteman I missile guidance computer. There's a little info on the web about the computer but nothing that shows the console. I assume the console was just used for testing on the ground or possibly it was used in the computer's development. Could even be unrelated to the D37 guidance system. Does anyone recognize it, or have any stories? http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/d37_1.JPG Thanks, Bob From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Mar 19 16:11:24 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autonetics D37 ? In-Reply-To: <280654.32678.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <299216.49379.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I picked up what I believe is a console from an Autonetics model D-37 > Minuteman I missile guidance computer. There's a little info > on the web about the computer but nothing that shows the console. It certainly looks plausible that it is a console for a disk-memory computer. > I assume the console was just used for testing on the ground or possibly it > was used in the computer's development. That would be my guess. Where did it come from? Any chance of getting the D-37 itself? Apparently, when the original guidance system was upgraded in the 1960s, some old Minuteman I CPUs were donated to universities. --Bill From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 19 17:02:01 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autonetics D37 ? In-Reply-To: <299216.49379.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <642913.21691.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> William Maddox wrote:It certainly looks plausible that it is a console for a disk-memory computer. > I assume the console was just used for testing on the ground or possibly it > was used in the computer's development. That would be my guess. Where did it come from? Any chance of getting the D-37 itself? Apparently, when the original guidance system was upgraded in the 1960s, some old Minuteman I CPUs were donated to universities. --Bill It came from one of the Government Liquidation auctions. It just looked interesting so I bought it. It required an EUC! Crazy for a system from the 1960's. No hint of the rest of the computer that I can find on the site, but I'm still looking (their search engine sucks). I would love to find the disc memory. Bob From djg at pdp8.net Wed Mar 19 20:10:23 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:10:23 -0400 Subject: Decmate Message-ID: <200803200110.m2K1ANV06588@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >The DECmate II (VT100 housing) has the ability to download code into >the PDP-8 through the terminal port via a special control sequence. I >haven't tried it on mine yet. > Do you know what the control sequence and data format is and/or what manual documents it? I though the sequence went VT78 (in VT52), DECmate/VT278 (in VT100), DECmate II (in big PC like case), DECmate III (in little PC like case), DECmate III+ (same) From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Mar 19 20:29:02 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:29:02 +0000 Subject: Decmate In-Reply-To: <200803200110.m2K1ANV06588@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200803200110.m2K1ANV06588@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <20080320012902.GA28002@usap.gov> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 09:10:23PM -0400, djg at pdp8.net wrote: > >The DECmate II (VT100 housing) has the ability to download code into > >the PDP-8 through the terminal port via a special control sequence. I > >haven't tried it on mine yet. > > > Do you know what the control sequence and data format is and/or what > manual documents it? I would be curious to hear of this, too. > I though the sequence went VT78 (in VT52), DECmate/VT278 (in VT100), > DECmate II (in big PC like case), DECmate III (in little PC like case), > DECmate III+ (same) That's the sequence I know of (and I own one of all of those except a VT78 - it's one of the three types of -8s that I'm missing, along with an -8/f and -8/m). Internally, though, I'm pretty sure the VT78 has an IM6100, while all the rest have IM6120s. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Mar-2008 at 01:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.0 F (-56.1 C) Windchill -106.3 F (-76.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.9 kts Grid 79 Barometer 685.0 mb (10440 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 19 21:04:37 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:04:37 -0400 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 Message-ID: I made a trip to my (far away) storage locker today, and brought home a few things that I hope to bring back to life in the coming weeks. First is an HP9810A. I just powered it up...Several LEDs turn on immediately, but the display is blank and the keys are unresponsive. Does anyone (Tony?) have any troubleshooting hints? Are schematics for this machine floating around anywhere? The second is a PDP-11/05. It hasn't been powered up in about twenty years, and has an empty backplane. I'm pretty sure I have all the right boards, but I'll have to dig through quite a few crates to locate them. I may do that tomorrow or Friday. Friday is my birthday (39, *shudder*) and I always make it a point to do things that I love on my birthday, and hacking on a PDP-11 definitely qualifies, so I'll probably work on it then. The first thing that sticks out about the 11/05 is that the keylock switch has a key broken off in it. At least it's in the "power" position. Does anyone have a spare key for this machine? If so, can I talk you out if it? It's not one of the ubiquitous XX2247s of which I have quite a few; it's a standard "slot" key. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 19 21:19:38 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:19:38 -0600 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47E1C9BA.2010602@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > The second is a PDP-11/05. It hasn't been powered up in about twenty > years, and has an empty backplane. I'm pretty sure I have all the right > boards, but I'll have to dig through quite a few crates to locate them. > I may do that tomorrow or Friday. Friday is my birthday (39, *shudder*) > and I always make it a point to do things that I love on my birthday, > and hacking on a PDP-11 definitely qualifies, so I'll probably work on > it then. Umm *shudder* 48 here this friday ... Why does this list make you feel old. Ben alias Woodelf PS. I wonder if I can get a cake, with a computer that pops out .... From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 19 21:50:57 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:50:57 -0600 Subject: Decmate In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:10:23 -0400. <200803200110.m2K1ANV06588@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: In article <200803200110.m2K1ANV06588 at h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > >The DECmate II (VT100 housing) has the ability to download code into > >the PDP-8 through the terminal port via a special control sequence. I > >haven't tried it on mine yet. > > > Do you know what the control sequence and data format is and/or what > manual documents it? IIRC, I read it in a manual from bitsavers. Ah, found it. DECmate System Architecture Manual, section 6.6 DOWN-LINE LOADING THE VT278, pg. 6-24. The same manual might be around on bitsavers somewhere. > I though the sequence went VT78 (in VT52), DECmate/VT278 (in VT100), > DECmate II (in big PC like case), DECmate III (in little PC like case), > DECmate III+ (same) I'm probably wrong about the designation, it was from memory. The one I have is the VT100 case with the PDP-8 inside. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 19 23:05:15 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:05:15 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 core questions Message-ID: <3A4AE3AF-2384-442E-8D37-E061D2043A86@neurotica.com> Ok, I decided to dive into the PDP-11/05 a bit tonight. First I'm trying to make sure I have all the right boards for when the time comes to assemble the system. I have the two CPU boards (M7260 and M7261, actually three of the latter!), the M9970A SCL connector board, and two M930 terminators...so now I need some memory. The stamped silver tag on the side of the chassis says "11/05 SC" which I assume means it's got an 11/05S backplane in it. This assumption is supported by the board location sticker inside the card cage, which is labeled for a 16K core subsystem (H217, G114, G235, M8293). The problem is, I don't have that core subsystem...I have enough boards (in multiple copies) to put together an 8K subsystem, using H214 (or H215?), G213, and G110 boards. My question is, will this subsystem function in this backplane, or is the 11/05S backplane only compatible with the higher-density core subsystem? There's one other problem...The circuit breaker on the rear of the chassis is physically damaged. Does anyone have a spare one kicking around, or know of a currently-available replacement that I can order from a component distributor? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 19 23:06:21 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:06:21 -0400 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <47E1C9BA.2010602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47E1C9BA.2010602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7654B1B5-FB10-404D-AC0B-7ECE8E18ADFA@neurotica.com> On Mar 19, 2008, at 10:19 PM, woodelf wrote: >> The second is a PDP-11/05. It hasn't been powered up in about >> twenty years, and has an empty backplane. I'm pretty sure I have >> all the right boards, but I'll have to dig through quite a few >> crates to locate them. I may do that tomorrow or Friday. Friday >> is my birthday (39, *shudder*) and I always make it a point to do >> things that I love on my birthday, and hacking on a PDP-11 >> definitely qualifies, so I'll probably work on it then. > > Umm *shudder* 48 here this friday ... Why does this list make you > feel > old. Hey, happy birthday! How odd to find another PDP geek born on March 21st. :) > PS. I wonder if I can get a cake, with a computer that pops out .... > Yes, but what kind of computer? I vote for a PDP-11/70. That'd be one hell of a cake! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 19 23:25:07 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:25:07 -0600 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <7654B1B5-FB10-404D-AC0B-7ECE8E18ADFA@neurotica.com> References: <47E1C9BA.2010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <7654B1B5-FB10-404D-AC0B-7ECE8E18ADFA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <47E1E723.3050704@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey, happy birthday! How odd to find another PDP geek born on March > 21st. :) Well the odds to find a specific birthday are really quite rare. With a list this size I expect about 1/2 dozen birthday matches. >> PS. I wonder if I can get a cake, with a computer that pops out .... >> > > Yes, but what kind of computer? I vote for a PDP-11/70. That'd be > one hell of a cake! I'll share my cake, but hands off the puter. Oddly I am glad you got the the 11 not me, since I don't have the room for a BIG computer. > -Dave From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 19 23:43:11 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 05:43:11 +0100 Subject: Plessey PMDD/8b - *ANY* Information available? Message-ID: <47E1EB5F.7030101@hachti.de> Hi folks, I want to get a Plessey PMDD/8b get to work on a PDP-8/e. It is not my system and I currently don't have access to it. So I would be very lucky to get every piece of information about the drive. I think it has a cartdridge. That's where my knowledge ends. And I know that there's no documentation with the machine. So I need the luck that somebody can help me out. Is that drive RK05 compatible and works with RK8-E? Could I hook a RK05 from a 11/23 to an RK8-E controller? Or are there differences? Would be great to be prepared when I arrive at the machine... Many thanks, best wishes, Philipp :-) From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Mar 20 00:07:42 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 05:07:42 +0000 Subject: Plessey PMDD/8b - *ANY* Information available? In-Reply-To: <47E1EB5F.7030101@hachti.de> References: <47E1EB5F.7030101@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20080320050742.GC6637@usap.gov> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 05:43:11AM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I want to get a Plessey PMDD/8b get to work on a PDP-8/e. It is not my > system and I currently don't have access to it. > > So I would be very lucky to get every piece of information about the > drive. I think it has a cartdridge. That's where my knowledge ends. > And I know that there's no documentation with the machine. So I need the > luck that somebody can help me out. > > Is that drive RK05 compatible and works with RK8-E? Unfortunately, I don't have any information on Plessey drives. > Could I hook a RK05 from a 11/23 to an RK8-E controller? Or are there > differences? No change to the drive should be required. You will, however, need a 16-sector RK05 pack to use it with an RK8E (PDP-11s use 12-sector packs - the same number of bits around the track, just chopped up differently). As for cables, The RK8E uses a similar cable arrangement to the RKV11D, which is presumably what you have on your 11/23. There might be a _slight_ difference with the paddle card (a jumper or one IC... I can't remember off the top of my head), but IIRC, the underlying card and its cables is identical between the RKV11D and the RK8E. If your RK8E already has cables, then you are set - just pull out one paddle card and install the other in the same place. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Mar-2008 at 05:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.9 F (-56.6 C) Windchill -106.6 F (-77.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.3 kts Grid 71 Barometer 685.2 mb (10433 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 20 00:08:04 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:08:04 -0400 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:27:08 -0000.) References: Message-ID: <200803200508.m2K585Xq012037@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The older Facit 4070s (including all the ones I've every worked on) have > a pounch cotnrol/PSU board in the top slot. It has a parallel > interface. The interface connnections are wired to one side of the > bottom edge connector, the other side of that connector is wired to the > DB25 socket on the back of the machine. Normally there's a bridging > board in that lower connector, so you get he parallel interfavce brought > out there, but Facit also made an RS232 board (which is, of course, used > along with the control/PSU board) that went in there, some other > companies made custom boards for their own interfaces (HP was one such). Tony and others interested: A photo of the component side of the board, and one of the back end of the unit, are available at: http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/facit4070/ These images are quite large, about 5 MB each. Forgive the quality; setting up some kind of copy stand and lights for this kind of work is still on the "pending round-tuit" list. But you should be able to read the chips, etc. Meant to do this a week ago, but it's been one of those weeks. De From mwichary at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 00:37:42 2008 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:37:42 -0700 Subject: Parametron/PC-1? Message-ID: <1debc0350803192237w1abbd915g2c302466cffe726b@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have any information (especially photos) of the Japanese Parametron/PC-1 machine, or any book/periodical sources where I can find some? Here are some links I found, but I was hoping for more: ? http://www.thocp.net/hardware/parametron.htm ? http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/computer/0080_e.html ? http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/computer/0180_e.html -- Marcin Wichary Sr. user experience designer, Google Graphical User Interface gallery >> www.guidebookgallery.org From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 00:50:49 2008 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:50:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 core questions In-Reply-To: <3A4AE3AF-2384-442E-8D37-E061D2043A86@neurotica.com> References: <3A4AE3AF-2384-442E-8D37-E061D2043A86@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <624966d60803192250s36ae8fb7p984c7e126f33dc62@mail.gmail.com> The Unibus trouble shooting handbook describes 4 or so 11/05 backplanes. Mine is still packed away. The 8K and 16K are not interchangable. I have seen systems where the backplane has been changed, so I would check the part number first. Paul On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ok, I decided to dive into the PDP-11/05 a bit tonight. First I'm > trying to make sure I have all the right boards for when the time > comes to assemble the system. I have the two CPU boards (M7260 and > M7261, actually three of the latter!), the M9970A SCL connector > board, and two M930 terminators...so now I need some memory. > > The stamped silver tag on the side of the chassis says "11/05 SC" > which I assume means it's got an 11/05S backplane in it. This > assumption is supported by the board location sticker inside the card > cage, which is labeled for a 16K core subsystem (H217, G114, G235, > M8293). > > The problem is, I don't have that core subsystem...I have enough > boards (in multiple copies) to put together an 8K subsystem, using > H214 (or H215?), G213, and G110 boards. My question is, will this > subsystem function in this backplane, or is the 11/05S backplane only > compatible with the higher-density core subsystem? > > There's one other problem...The circuit breaker on the rear of the > chassis is physically damaged. Does anyone have a spare one kicking > around, or know of a currently-available replacement that I can order > from a component distributor? > > Thanks, > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Mar 19 10:35:55 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:35:55 +0100 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> woodelf schrieb: > Rick Bensene wrote: > >> It is sad that he has passed on. He was a brilliant, visionary man >> that, luckily for us, left a legacy of great writings that will live on. > True. But if I remember authors right, 2001 never did come true. Nor did 1984 - however, meanwhile, I hear people call Orwell an optimist. Anyway, the old SF visionaries are leaving us. Asimov, Lem, now Clarke; the golden times of SF disappear. Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. -- Holger From c_habib at bluewin.ch Wed Mar 19 14:49:17 2008 From: c_habib at bluewin.ch (charles habib) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:49:17 +0100 Subject: Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI Message-ID: <02e101c889fa$5194ba70$b600a8c0@yannih> Thanks for all the interesting anectodes and tips in answer to my question. As i am restoring an Imsai, before asking my local car paint shop to repaint the cover, i was hoping to get the exact color reference from someone of our group. Just for the sake of exactitude of the restoration. It would be marvelous if Sellam Ismail would give us beside the address of his friend the reference of the paint he used, or was it a "decorative" paint far away from the IMSAI blue? Living in Switzerland sending the cover to California would be a rather expensive exercice! Incidentally yes i tend to agree that the original paint was powder coated (at least on on my cover). Kindest regards Charles From Michael.Elrick at telecom.co.nz Wed Mar 19 19:00:14 2008 From: Michael.Elrick at telecom.co.nz (Michael Elrick) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:00:14 +1300 Subject: NGEN B26 - CTOS floppy? Was Convergence Technologies Series 186 Message-ID: <23D44BA19118AE4FA83DEE506D01A61D03832D16@AKEXBE02.telecom.tcnz.net> Hi, Your posting was from quite a while a go but I thought I'd try dropping you a line. I was looking for some information related to the B26 hardware but there's not too much. I wondered how you got on with your one? I recently picked one up but I suspect that the floppy/HD card and perhaps the HD to be faulty so I can get to the 'L' prompt where it stops. The 'L' is where is checks for a floppy drive. I have changed what I can eg cables, floppy drive, cleaned it out etc but it does not want to go further. I picked it up with a pile of manuals, software and system disks. Did you ever get yours going? Any idea where I could source spares? If all else fails do you know someone who has an interest in the B26 and BTOS or CTOS? Michael Elrick. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 20:08:46 2008 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:08:46 -0400 Subject: A. C. Clarke has passed -> 2ost century visionary Message-ID: I agree to some extent with Rick. Nevertheless I think no matter what came to past or didn't the masses have come to accept, sometimes reluctantly, the technocracy we live in today. Even those in the developing world are being engaged in the communications and technical revolution. A. C. Clarke showed us that we need not fear the unknown. Murray McCullough Message: 28 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:12:55 -0600 From: woodelf Subject: Re: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <47E12D77.5080206 at jetnet.ab.ca> <47E12D77.5080206 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Rick Bensene wrote: > It is sad that he has passed on. He was a brilliant, visionary man > that, luckily for us, left a legacy of great writings that will live on. True. But if I remember authors right, 2001 never did come true. > Rick Bensene > > > . From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Thu Mar 20 04:11:27 2008 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:11:27 +0100 Subject: Plessey PMDD/8b - *ANY* Information available? In-Reply-To: <47E1EB5F.7030101@hachti.de> References: <47E1EB5F.7030101@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20080320091127.40330@gmx.net> Hi Phillip, IIRC I have the docs for that drive. But no access at the moment (not before March, 29th). Greetings Gerold -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 05:43:11 +0100 > Von: Philipp Hachtmann > An: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Betreff: Plessey PMDD/8b - *ANY* Information available? > Hi folks, > > I want to get a Plessey PMDD/8b get to work on a PDP-8/e. It is not my > system and I currently don't have access to it. > > So I would be very lucky to get every piece of information about the > drive. I think it has a cartdridge. That's where my knowledge ends. > And I know that there's no documentation with the machine. So I need the > luck that somebody can help me out. > > Is that drive RK05 compatible and works with RK8-E? > > Could I hook a RK05 from a 11/23 to an RK8-E controller? Or are there > differences? > > Would be great to be prepared when I arrive at the machine... > > Many thanks, > best wishes, > > Philipp :-) -- GMX startet ShortView.de. Hier findest Du Leute mit Deinen Interessen! Jetzt dabei sein: http://www.shortview.de/?mc=sv_ext_mf at gmx From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 04:50:01 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:50:01 +0000 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <47E1E723.3050704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47E1C9BA.2010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <7654B1B5-FB10-404D-AC0B-7ECE8E18ADFA@neurotica.com> <47E1E723.3050704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 4:25 AM, woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Hey, happy birthday! How odd to find another PDP geek born on March > > 21st. :) > > Well the odds to find a specific birthday are really quite rare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_paradox From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Mar 20 05:50:50 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:50:50 +0000 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <200803200902.m2K91a3W071566@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803200902.m2K91a3W071566@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >>> It is sad that he has passed on. He was a brilliant, visionary man >>> that, luckily for us, left a legacy of great writings that will >>> live on. >> True. But if I remember authors right, 2001 never did come true. But geostationary communications satellites did. > Nor did 1984 - however, meanwhile, I hear people call Orwell an > optimist. > > Anyway, the old SF visionaries are leaving us. Asimov, Lem, now > Clarke; > the golden times of SF disappear. > > Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. Nothing wrong with the hardware, it had been programmed to be a serial murderer under certain conditions. Deliberate, not even a bug and of course contrary to the laws of robotics. Somewhat like HAL, sadly my father has dementia and likes reciting nursery rhymes (and gets them wrong), which gets under the skin of the other residents of his nursing home and he had a fight with an old lady who broke his glasses and he hit her with his walking stick. The staff took the stick away and later we got a call to say he had had a fall, hardly surprising. Gone slightly off topic there a bit, sorry. Does anyone here have a use for a BROKEN wide format Hewlett Packard ink jet printer? I think we got it in 2000, so not ten years old quite yet but useful for printing schematics if you have the knowledge/patience to repair it. It might even be a current model, things move slowly in the wide format side of things where low volumes force design costs to be recouped over longer periods. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 20 08:21:14 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:21:14 -0600 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080320071801.081c7cd8@mail.threedee.com> At 09:35 AM 3/19/2008, Holger Veit wrote: >Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. And with a birthday of January 12, 1997, HAL would now fall under the ten-year-rule (the Rule That Doesn't Really Exist.) - John -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1331 - Release Date: 3/16/2008 10:34 AM From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 08:42:56 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 06:42:56 -0700 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <7d3530220803200642h403de655r88e3fbbc3a6d3889@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Holger Veit wrote: > woodelf schrieb: > > > Rick Bensene wrote: > > > >> It is sad that he has passed on. He was a brilliant, visionary man > >> that, luckily for us, left a legacy of great writings that will live on. > > True. But if I remember authors right, 2001 never did come true. > Nor did 1984 - however, meanwhile, I hear people call Orwell an optimist. > > Anyway, the old SF visionaries are leaving us. Asimov, Lem, now Clarke; > the golden times of SF disappear. > > Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. > Don't forget Heinlein... although I'm willing to forget his later stuff. Why do SF authors seem to get a little crazy when they get old? John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 20 10:04:26 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 11:04:26 -0400 Subject: NGEN B26 - CTOS floppy? Was Convergence Technologies Series 186 In-Reply-To: <23D44BA19118AE4FA83DEE506D01A61D03832D16@AKEXBE02.telecom.tcnz.net> References: <23D44BA19118AE4FA83DEE506D01A61D03832D16@AKEXBE02.telecom.tcnz.net> Message-ID: <47E27CFA.4010407@mdrconsult.com> Michael Elrick wrote: > Hi, > > Your posting was from quite a while a go but I thought I'd try dropping > you a line. > I was looking for some information related to the B26 hardware but > there's not too much. I wondered how you got on with your one? I > recently picked one up but I suspect that the floppy/HD card and perhaps > the HD to be faulty so I can get to the 'L' prompt where it stops. The > 'L' is where is checks for a floppy drive. > I have changed what I can eg cables, floppy drive, cleaned it out etc > but it does not want to go further. > I picked it up with a pile of manuals, software and system disks. > Did you ever get yours going? Any idea where I could source spares? If > all else fails do you know someone who has an interest in the B26 and > BTOS or CTOS? I would commit an unnatural act to get a set of CTOS system disks. :-) My B26 system (CP-001) boots through to a login prompt, but I don't have the admin account's password. Do you have any way to make disk images from your set? Doc Shipley > > Michael Elrick. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 20 11:23:26 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:23:26 -0600 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: References: <47E1C9BA.2010602@jetnet.ab.ca> <7654B1B5-FB10-404D-AC0B-7ECE8E18ADFA@neurotica.com> <47E1E723.3050704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47E28F7E.8040208@jetnet.ab.ca> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 4:25 AM, woodelf wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> > Hey, happy birthday! How odd to find another PDP geek born on March >> > 21st. :) >> >> Well the odds to find a specific birthday are really quite rare. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_paradox > Any idea about the number of people on the list ... if well over 365 the odds are quite good. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 20 11:31:48 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:31:48 -0600 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <47E29174.6050202@jetnet.ab.ca> Holger Veit wrote: > Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. It is a good computer,just remember to get the hardware update about planting explosive charges in the computer. From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 20 11:29:55 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:29:55 -0700 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > First is an HP9810A. I just powered it up...Several LEDs turn on >immediately, but the display is blank and the keys are unresponsive. >Does anyone (Tony?) have any troubleshooting hints? Are schematics >for this machine floating around anywhere? Tony Duell (a frequent contributor to this list), has reverse-engineered schematics of the 9810A. Hopefully he'll see this thread, and respond as to how to lay hands them. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 20 11:35:06 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:35:06 -0700 Subject: NGEN B26 - CTOS floppy? Message-ID: <47E2923A.1040800@bitsavers.org> > I would commit an unnatural act to get a set of CTOS system disks. It appears Bear Striklin (typewritten.org) has B2x software, though I've not been able to contact him about it. From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Mar 20 12:25:00 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:25:00 -0500 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: <01C88A86.4636B3E0@host-208-72-122-59.dyn.295.ca> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: S100 archive? On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, M H Stein wrote: >> I wouldn't call a scan or photocopy of a manual "intellectual property." >I'd be interested in hearing more of your definition of "intellectual >property". It seems to be different from that used by the USA legal >system, in which a copyrighted manual IS an embodiment of intellectual >property, as is any reproduction, particularly scan or photocopy. ------ My point exactly; a manual, and especially a scan or copy are the embodiment, not the IP itself; I think you'd have trouble copyrighting a copy of a copyrighted work. We were talking about "attribution;" if I were to quote one of Mark Twain's many witticisms it would still be attributed to him, not me. So "attribution" of a copy to one of several other copies of the same thing seems rather meaningless except as a matter of courtesy and I don't understand why some people seem to think it's useful and important information. But, having said that, you're absolutely right: the purpose of the Internet these days is indeed largely "the free sharing and exchange of other people's intellectual property," and a large part of that IP is specifically meant to be shared and exchanged. m From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 12:17:00 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:17:00 -0700 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90803201017w7f87950cl502c198b4397230@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > Tony Duell (a frequent contributor to this list), has reverse-engineered > schematics of the 9810A. > Hopefully he'll see this thread, and respond as to how to lay hands > them. > www.hpmuseum.net is always a good place to check for HP resources: 9810-SchematicsByTonyDuell-85pages.pdf http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=987 From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Mar 20 12:44:30 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:44:30 -0500 Subject: Morrow MD2 - Available in B.C. Message-ID: <160BA00117B3@dunfield.com> Forwarding (after confirming with originator) an offer for two MD2 system located in BC. If interested, email me off-list and I will forward to you the email of the originator. Dave ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Subject: Morrow MD2 Date sent: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:21:34 -0700 I have two Morrow MD2 CP/M computers which I would like to get rid of. One, when last checked a couple of years ago, was still working and complete with original software, books, and Lear Siegler terminal. The other was a spare and although it used to work I borrowed a disk drive from it. And I'm not sure about the books and software for this one. I see you already have one of these, but if you are interested please let me know. I'm in BC. ------- End of forwarded message ------- -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Mar 20 12:31:34 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBC Micro reunion TONIGHT at Science Museum in London Message-ID: Hopefully this gets out in time for those that may be able to attend: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7303288.stm -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 20 13:12:46 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:12:46 -0400 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 20, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> First is an HP9810A. I just powered it up...Several LEDs turn on >> immediately, but the display is blank and the keys are unresponsive. >> Does anyone (Tony?) have any troubleshooting hints? Are schematics >> for this machine floating around anywhere? > > Tony Duell (a frequent contributor to this list), has reverse- > engineered > schematics of the 9810A. > Hopefully he'll see this thread, and respond as to how to lay hands > them. Sweet! I look forward to his comments. In the meantime I'm cleaning the grime from the outside of the 9810A. Man this thing is dirty! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hachti at hachti.de Thu Mar 20 13:24:22 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:24:22 +0100 Subject: Plessey PMDD/8b - *ANY* Information available? In-Reply-To: <20080320091127.40330@gmx.net> References: <47E1EB5F.7030101@hachti.de> <20080320091127.40330@gmx.net> Message-ID: <47E2ABD6.7020302@hachti.de> Ah, gut zu wissen... Wann f?hrst Du nach dem 29. wieder nach Stuttgart? Ich werde mich vorher nochmal melden, bin gerade in Eile. Gru?, Philipp :-) Gerold Pauler wrote: > Hi Phillip, > > IIRC I have the docs for that drive. > But no access at the moment (not before March, 29th). > > Greetings > Gerold > > -------- Original-Nachricht -------- >> Datum: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 05:43:11 +0100 >> Von: Philipp Hachtmann >> An: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Betreff: Plessey PMDD/8b - *ANY* Information available? > >> Hi folks, >> >> I want to get a Plessey PMDD/8b get to work on a PDP-8/e. It is not my >> system and I currently don't have access to it. >> >> So I would be very lucky to get every piece of information about the >> drive. I think it has a cartdridge. That's where my knowledge ends. >> And I know that there's no documentation with the machine. So I need the >> luck that somebody can help me out. >> >> Is that drive RK05 compatible and works with RK8-E? >> >> Could I hook a RK05 from a 11/23 to an RK8-E controller? Or are there >> differences? >> >> Would be great to be prepared when I arrive at the machine... >> >> Many thanks, >> best wishes, >> >> Philipp :-) > -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Thu Mar 20 13:46:50 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:46:50 +0100 Subject: Plessey PMDD/8b - *ANY* Information available? In-Reply-To: <47E2ABD6.7020302@hachti.de> References: <47E1EB5F.7030101@hachti.de> <20080320091127.40330@gmx.net> <47E2ABD6.7020302@hachti.de> Message-ID: <47E2B11A.5040708@hachti.de> Sorry for my post in german - was intended to be a personal message... Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Ah, gut zu wissen... Wann f?hrst Du nach dem 29. wieder nach Stuttgart? > Ich werde mich vorher nochmal melden, bin gerade in Eile. > > Gru?, > Philipp :-) > > Gerold Pauler wrote: >> Hi Phillip, >> >> IIRC I have the docs for that drive. >> But no access at the moment (not before March, 29th). >> >> Greetings >> Gerold >> >> -------- Original-Nachricht -------- >>> Datum: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 05:43:11 +0100 >>> Von: Philipp Hachtmann >>> An: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Betreff: Plessey PMDD/8b - *ANY* Information available? >> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> I want to get a Plessey PMDD/8b get to work on a PDP-8/e. It is not >>> my system and I currently don't have access to it. >>> >>> So I would be very lucky to get every piece of information about the >>> drive. I think it has a cartdridge. That's where my knowledge ends. >>> And I know that there's no documentation with the machine. So I need >>> the luck that somebody can help me out. >>> >>> Is that drive RK05 compatible and works with RK8-E? >>> >>> Could I hook a RK05 from a 11/23 to an RK8-E controller? Or are there >>> differences? >>> >>> Would be great to be prepared when I arrive at the machine... >>> >>> Many thanks, >>> best wishes, >>> >>> Philipp :-) >> > -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 20 14:04:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:04:24 -0700 Subject: Parametron PC-1 In-Reply-To: <200803200901.m2K91a3O071566@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803200901.m2K91a3O071566@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47E252C8.2525.5C39AF0@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:37:42 -0700 > From: "Marcin Wichary" The parametron computers were late 50's/early 60's, not 70's. CHM has a brochure on the NEC box: http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=m- p&company=com-42bc20c009b92 A couple of photos here: http://www.math.cs.musashi-tech.ac.jp/~shida/museum/parametron.html This book dedicates a chapter to parametron computers: http://www.i-ise.com/en/lecture/lect_200512b.html Herb Grosch mentions meeting Eiichi Goto in his "Bit Slices" autobio: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/computer.html If you search on the Kana string for "Parametron", you'll find lots more: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%91%E3%83%A9%E3%83%A1%E3%83%88%E3%8 3%AD%E3%83%B3 Also, these Japanese papers on the PC-1: http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/guide/pdf/prosym/1996prosym_008.pdf http://www.iijlab.net/~ew/pc1/mtac.html Here's a page full of links to various PC-1 resources (many in English): http://www.iijlab.net/~ew/pc1/ ...and there's Eiichi Goto's parameteron patents in the uspto.gov database (I'll leave the search to you; it's pretty easy). Cheers, Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Mar 20 14:27:17 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:27:17 -0400 Subject: S100 archive? Message-ID: <47E282550200003700024C39@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > I think you'd have trouble copyrighting a copy of a copyrighted work. It depends. Certainly when Andy Warhol makes a mechanically- assisted reproduction of a Campbell's Soup Can, or 32 of them, he's making original art... just based on a trademarked logo. I know, trademarks are not the same as copyrights. But other artists do montages of newspaper clippings to great effect, and there the originals were protected by copyright. Or look at Blue Man Group's "Project 13". They didn't own the copyrights to the original documents, yet they make a perfectly good statement using them. At the same time I'm sure BMG pays for the clips of Devo and Freebird they use to great effect in their shows :-) His status as a former commercial artist of course has a lot to do with his other art. I bumped up against that specialty several times over my career and have a lot of respect for what they do. I also like Roy Lichtenstein, BTW :-). Others here probably don't like this kind pop-art stuff. But my experience with commercial artists has really made me appreciate mechanical processes as well as the results. Tim. From shumaker at att.net Thu Mar 20 16:12:21 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:12:21 -0400 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: References: <200803200902.m2K91a3W071566@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47E2D335.2070208@att.net> Is the printer still available? what model is it? s shumaker Roger Holmes wrote: > >>>> It is sad that he has passed on. He was a brilliant, visionary man >>>> that, luckily for us, left a legacy of great writings that will live >>>> on. >>> True. But if I remember authors right, 2001 never did come true. > > But geostationary communications satellites did. > > >> Nor did 1984 - however, meanwhile, I hear people call Orwell an optimist. >> >> Anyway, the old SF visionaries are leaving us. Asimov, Lem, now Clarke; >> the golden times of SF disappear. >> >> Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. > > Nothing wrong with the hardware, it had been programmed to be a serial > murderer under certain conditions. Deliberate, not even a bug and of > course contrary to the laws of robotics. Somewhat like HAL, sadly my > father has dementia and likes reciting nursery rhymes (and gets them > wrong), which gets under the skin of the other residents of his nursing > home and he had a fight with an old lady who broke his glasses and he > hit her with his walking stick. The staff took the stick away and later > we got a call to say he had had a fall, hardly surprising. > > Gone slightly off topic there a bit, sorry. > > Does anyone here have a use for a BROKEN wide format Hewlett Packard ink > jet printer? I think we got it in 2000, so not ten years old quite yet > but useful for printing schematics if you have the knowledge/patience to > repair it. It might even be a current model, things move slowly in the > wide format side of things where low volumes force design costs to be > recouped over longer periods. > > > > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 20 16:21:13 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 archive? In-Reply-To: <47E282550200003700024C39@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <47E282550200003700024C39@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <20080320142039.O94622@shell.lmi.net> > Fred Cisin wrote: > > I think you'd have trouble copyrighting a copy of a copyrighted work. I did NOT write that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 20 17:01:23 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <47E29174.6050202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> <47E29174.6050202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080320145953.T94622@shell.lmi.net> > > Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, woodelf wrote: > It is a good computer,just remember to get the hardware update about > planting explosive charges in the computer. Would installing Windoze work as an alternate method of disabling? (only a little more destructive than explosives) From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 17:06:02 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:06:02 -0700 Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <20080320145953.T94622@shell.lmi.net> References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> <47E29174.6050202@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080320145953.T94622@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220803201506q252ef340ocf9accea2692b832@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. > > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, woodelf wrote: > > It is a good computer,just remember to get the hardware update about > > planting explosive charges in the computer. > > Would installing Windoze work as an alternate method of disabling? > (only a little more destructive than explosives) > I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I can feel it... WELCOME TO WINDOWS 2001 Press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to Log In! -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 20 17:19:00 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aurthur C. Clarke has passed In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803201506q252ef340ocf9accea2692b832@mail.gmail.com> References: <031920081441.23341.47E12601000C35F900005B2D22070245539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> <47E12D77.5080206@jetnet.ab.ca> <47E132DB.6090302@iais.fraunhofer.de> <47E29174.6050202@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080320145953.T94622@shell.lmi.net> <7d3530220803201506q252ef340ocf9accea2692b832@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080320151506.M94622@shell.lmi.net> > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > Concerning 2001: I doubt I really want to have a HAL9000. I was quoting (without attribution). I DO really want to have a HAL9000. I promise to never install Windoze on it. I DID write: > > Would installing Windoze work as an alternate method of disabling? > > (only a little more destructive than explosives) On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, John Floren wrote: > I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel > it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I > can feel it... > WELCOME TO WINDOWS 2001 > Press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to Log In! Good luck finding a Windoze driver to open the Pod door. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 20 16:50:19 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:50:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <7654B1B5-FB10-404D-AC0B-7ECE8E18ADFA@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 20, 8 00:06:21 am Message-ID: > Hey, happy birthday! How odd to find another PDP geek born on > March 21st. :) Assuming there are at least 367 PDP enthusiasts in the world, then the pigeonhole princiiple proves that at least 2 will share a birthday. -tony > > PS. I wonder if I can get a cake, with a computer that pops out .... > > We've had cakes made in the shape of HP calculators at some of the HPCC conferences. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 20 15:37:59 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:37:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 19, 8 10:04:37 pm Message-ID: > First is an HP9810A. I just powered it up...Several LEDs turn on > immediately, but the display is blank and the keys are unresponsive. > Does anyone (Tony?) have any troubleshooting hints? Are schematics > for this machine floating around anywhere? However did you guess that I've worked on this machine :-). FIrst go to http://www.hpmuseum.net/ There are some manuals there, including te HP servive manual, which is, alas, a fairly pointless boardswapper guide. But if you can stand my handwriting, there's also a full set of scheamtics. Now, the machine is really a bit-serial computer. What I mean by that is that there's a 16 bit bit-serial processor with ROM and RAM hung off it. The display, keyoard, printer and magnetic card reader are peripherals to this processor. This means, alas, that since the display is scanned by the processor under the control of the firmware, just about any fault results in a blnak display. The keyboard LEDs are driven by an 8 bit latch on the keyboard cotnroller PCB, and in fact some are driven by the normal and inverted outputs of the same latch section (e.g. the fixed and floating LEDs), so if the 5V PSU is working, then at least some of the LEDs will be on. To get inside, first remove the top cover. It's held on by 4 screws under the printer flap. With those out, you can spring the cover out of the side castings and take it out. Inside the unit is divided into 4 main secitons. On the left is a metal box contianing PCBs. It's held down by 4 screws, then flip the ejectors (red and purple IIRC) to free its backplane from the main backplane, and take it out. The side comes off that box with 4 more screws. Inside are the memory and memory control PCBs. From the bottom (I thinK) : ROM (firmware), memroy timing, memory address register, mrmory data register, RAM, optional expansion RAM Back in the main chassis, the next section is 4 PCBs plugged into the main backplane. That's the processor. From the left, the data path (ALU + reguisters), control (micrcoder ROMs, sequencer, Q register), clock (and I/O sequencer) and I/O. Note that all tghe handles are colour-coded with the guides that edge of the board slots into, and that the handles also encode the last 2 digits of the PCB part number in the obvious code. The next section in the machine is basically peripherals. The I/O backplane at the back, the (optional) printer and the magnetic card reder interface. Finally, on the right are the 3 PSU boards under another cover. This machine has mmany supply rails -- +5V for the TTL logic, +12V for the card reader, -12V for the card reader and the ROMs, +24V for the printer, and +16V, +19V for the RAMs. Now some intiital debugging. After removing the cover, take off the keyboard. It's held on by 4 screws on the bottom. This is one place where I've found it best not to fit/remove them in a diagonal sequence. Take out the front 2 first, they go into bushes in the front plastic strip. Then remove the 2 rear screws. Unplug the keyboard logic harness under the front of the printer. The other cabel, with the in-line connector at the right hand side, carries mains to/from the on/off switch. Leave that for the momemnt. With hte keyoard out of hte way, power up and test the PSU voltages. The +5V lione is easy to find on the display PCB (now clearly visible), the others have marked testpoints on the PSU oards, accessile through holes in the cover. PSU problems are uncommon, but it's worth checking. Take out the card reader controller by unplugging the edge connector on its front edg (motor/sensor signals), releasing the PCB from the backplane, and freeing the locating stud from the PSU metalwork. Uplug the head connector from the PCB. Take out the printer (4 screws) and the I/O backplane (just pulls out). Take out the memory box and remove any optional expansion RAM oard (very top slot, may be empty). In the main machine, there's a cable harness plugged into the left edge of the main backplane under the memory box. Unplug it (it carries the parallel address/data buses to the ROM module slots) and put the memory box back in. That's now the minimum configuration to get a display (processor, memory, PSU, dipsly board). Power up. If still no display (and alas that's what I suspect), you need to really get into the machine. There are basically 2 ways to debug the machine. The one that's sure to work (but which takes a lot of time and a logic analyser) is to grab the M (memroy address), T (memory data) and microcode PC from the test connectors Then work out what the machine is doing and compare it to what it should be doing. The simpler one which works quite a bit of the time is to rememebr that this is a bit-seiral machine and that as bits are shifted through the various registers, many signals should be changing. On the display PCB connectore there's a strobe signal. I think I called it DispStb. Stick a logic proe on that first. If it's toggling, the CPU is trying to access the display. The fault might be on the display board (on the other hand, the CPU might be writing blanks to the display). If that signal is not doing anything, look at the M reigster outputs (memory address) on the test connector at the top of the memory box backplane. If the high-order its are changing and the low-order ones aren't, there's a fault in the M register (the bits are shifted in from the MSB end). The next test is to be sure the clock is running properly. With just the clock PCB and PSU boards in the backplane (the other 3 CPU boards and the memory box out), check the master clock. It should be 8 MHz. Then look at the muClk (micorcode clock) and bitclock signals. Both should be toggling. If you have a 'scope,. there should be 16 bitclocks between each muClk. It now gets even more difficult. I've found it helpful to look at the I/O flip-flop (on the clock PCB) to make sure the machine is not stuck in an I/O operation. And then to look at the micorocde PC lines (on the test connectoro n the CPU control oard) to see what the CPU is actually doing. If you ask me nicely, I can send you an annotated source listing of the 98x0 CPU microcode... > The first thing that sticks out about the 11/05 is that the > keylock switch has a key broken off in it. At least it's in the > "power" position. Does anyone have a spare key for this machine? If > so, can I talk you out if it? It's not one of the ubiquitous XX2247s > of which I have quite a few; it's a standard "slot" key. If you don't mind making hte machine a little non-original, I found it quite easy to take the lock apart (take the front panel off, remove the lights/switches PCB and the microswitch assembly, and it's quite obvious) and them to pull out the tumblers. Put it back without the tumblers, and you can turn it with a screwdriver. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 20 16:57:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:57:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <200803200508.m2K585Xq012037@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Mar 20, 8 01:08:04 am Message-ID: > Tony and others interested: > > A photo of the component side of the board, and one of the back end of > the unit, are available at: > > http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/facit4070/ > > These images are quite large, about 5 MB each. Forgive the quality; > setting up some kind of copy stand and lights for this kind of work is I modified an old photographic enlarger into a copy stand. BAsically just removed the enlarger head (but hept the slider mecanism that goes up and down the column). The head was fastened to that by a handwheel bolt which turned out to have a 3/8" BSW thread. Took a it of brass bar, tapped a 3/8" BSW hole in one end and a 1/4" BSW hole in the other. Fixed a short length of 1/4" BSW studding ito that to screw into the tripod ush of my camera (Oh, and made a second one with a 3/8" BSW stud on the end for some of my larger cameras...). I already had a set of copying lights, which I rewired with a series/parallel switch so as to save the life of the bulbs when setting up and focussing. > still on the "pending round-tuit" list. But you should be able to read > the chips, etc. Thanks, I did take a look. I recognise some of the largeer compoennts as being similar to those used o nthe parallel-only boards in my 4070s. I am nor pretty sure that unmarked block of 8 jumpers near the middle of the board is to set what will bepunched y the Code Holes switch. I asusme the DB26 _on_ the PCB is for RS232 only, and that the parallel inteerface comes in on the DB25 on the main chassis, next to the mains connector. Is there a ridging board in the lower slot? I would think there should be (since the pins of the latter DB25 only go to the lower slot) I guess you could put any of the custom interface boards in that slot as well -tony From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 20 17:54:21 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 18:54:21 -0400 Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:57:49 -0000.) References: Message-ID: <200803202254.m2KMsLLZ004492@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I am nor pretty sure that unmarked block of 8 jumpers near the middle of > the board is to set what will bepunched y the Code Holes switch. I didn't actually test, since they're labeled error code, but I'm sure that's right. It's the 4-position switch that's unlabeled which has me curious. > I asusme the DB26 _on_ the PCB is for RS232 only, and that the parallel > inteerface comes in on the DB25 on the main chassis, next to the mains > connector. Is there a ridging board in the lower slot? I would think > there should be (since the pins of the latter DB25 only go to the lower > slot) I guess you could put any of the custom interface boards in that > slot as well Yes, the DB25 on the card is serial, and the one on the chassis is parallel. There's no board in the lower slot, though some of the doco seems to suggest such a thing was routinely shipped. There's a metal bar across the card bay toward the front of the unit which prevents insertion of a card in the lower slot. I haven't tried to remove it, or open the chassis up yet. I have gotten it to punch stuff I sent it. The current issue is that the tension bar/spindle is pulled clear over against the corner spindle by the advancing tape, the tension rises too high, and the spacing of the punches drops way into overlap. Eventually the supply reel gets around to feeding some, and it clears up briefly. Lather/rinse/repeat. The unit knows it's in trouble; it's error light comes on at the right time. Haven't gotten to spend too much time chasing this one yet, and I'm not well equipped for this kind of mechanical repair: I lack the tension meter needed to check the drive against the manual specs. Thanks to Tony and others for helping me get with the serial config on this beast. De From bear at typewritten.org Fri Mar 21 03:03:21 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 01:03:21 -0700 Subject: NGEN B26 - CTOS floppy? In-Reply-To: <47E2923A.1040800@bitsavers.org> References: <47E2923A.1040800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <67E7AAE7-7A6C-4573-9A25-8879BEBD1516@typewritten.org> On Mar 20, 2008, at 9:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > It appears Bear Striklin (typewritten.org) has B2x software, though > I've not been able to contact him about it. I do, and this is a public apology for being about two months behind on email right now. I've had a lot of people ask me about the CTOS disks, so I've moved it up to the top of the list of projects to see what it'll take to copy them. Unfortunately it might be another month or so before I have the time to do it. I will do it, and everybody who's asked me about it in the last four years will get a reply. Promise. ok bear From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 21 06:03:39 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:03:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Rick Bensene wrote: > Tony Duell (a frequent contributor to this list), has reverse-engineered > schematics of the 9810A. > Hopefully he'll see this thread, and respond as to how to lay hands > them. I hope that I will be able to scan the HP blueprints for the 9810 as soon as we will get our new copiers with network and scanning function; they should be able handle the large paper size. Christian From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Mar 21 10:12:48 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:12:48 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [FG] [Fwd: viz, Arthur Clarke] Message-ID: <200803211112.48662.rtellason@verizon.net> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [FG] [Fwd: viz, Arthur Clarke] Date: Friday 21 March 2008 11:03 From: Gus Gere To: "fidoguns at fidoguns.org" Crosspost or via http://tinyurl.com/2hlgpu ------------------------------------------------------- -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 21 10:27:58 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 08:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: [FG] [Fwd: viz, Arthur Clarke] In-Reply-To: <200803211112.48662.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Mar 21, 8 11:12:48 am" Message-ID: <200803211527.m2LFRw2v018682@floodgap.com> > I'm sorry, HAL. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh ------------------- From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Mar 21 13:03:00 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest 4.0 on April 26-27 at Purdue University Message-ID: VCF Midwest is happening on April 26-27 at Purdue University in Indiana. Patrick has told me he's going to literally break the legs of any people who are able to come but don't. I've seen Patrick do this and it was not pretty. Please don't piss off Patrick. Start making your plans to attend NOW. http://www.vintage.org/2008/midwest/ Both VCF-MW and VCF Europa are occurring on the same weekend. We are hoping to have some sort of simulcast between the two to the extent possible in overcoming technical challenges and time zone differences. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 21 13:28:04 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:28:04 -0700 Subject: Matchpoint/DOB on 386/20? Message-ID: <47E39BC4.29131.49E2542@cclist.sydex.com> Please respond privately if you don't think a 20-year old topic is appropriate for the list. I was wondering if anyone's tried to use a Microsolutions Match Point and/or a Central Point Deluxe option board on a 386/20. I'll be using an old Micronics system (no custom VLSI) if that's any help. I'd like to find out if this works before I get out my screwdriver. Thanks, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 21 14:24:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:24:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Switch settings: Facit 4070 tape punch In-Reply-To: <200803202254.m2KMsLLZ004492@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Mar 20, 8 06:54:21 pm Message-ID: > > > I am nor pretty sure that unmarked block of 8 jumpers near the middle of > > the board is to set what will bepunched y the Code Holes switch. > > I didn't actually test, since they're labeled error code, but I'm sure > that's right. No, not those, the other set of 8 that you mentioned. 'Error Code' is what will be punched if there's a framing error (or parity error?) on the incoming serial character. > > It's the 4-position switch that's unlabeled which has me curious. It doesn't look to be impossible to trace out schematics :-) > > > I asusme the DB26 _on_ the PCB is for RS232 only, and that the parallel > > inteerface comes in on the DB25 on the main chassis, next to the mains > > connector. Is there a ridging board in the lower slot? I would think > > there should be (since the pins of the latter DB25 only go to the lower > > slot) I guess you could put any of the custom interface boards in that > > slot as well > > Yes, the DB25 on the card is serial, and the one on the chassis is > parallel. There's no board in the lower slot, though some of the doco > seems to suggest such a thing was routinely shipped. > > There's a metal bar across the card bay toward the front of the unit > which prevents insertion of a card in the lower slot. I haven't tried > to remove it, or open the chassis up yet. If the chassis wiring is stnadard, then the DB25 on the main chassis has many pins only conencted to the lower slot, with another set of pins on that slot going to the paralell interface on the control board. It's possible your machine has non-stnadard wiring and that the lower slot is not used (hence the metal bar to prevent a board being placed there, or that there are jumpers onthe back of the connector that you cut if you fit a special interface. I'd remove the bottom cover from the chassis (just 2 screws) and take a look. > > I have gotten it to punch stuff I sent it. The current issue is that > the tension bar/spindle is pulled clear over against the corner spindle > by the advancing tape, the tension rises too high, and the spacing of > the punches drops way into overlap. Eventually the supply reel gets > around to feeding some, and it clears up briefly. Lather/rinse/repeat. The supply reel should turn in juerks as you pull the tape off (or as the punch pulls it off), with the tension arn swining back and forth. The arm should nnever get right over, though (I think that causes and error condition). My guess is that eirther the linkage needs adjusting, or that the supply spool is stiff. > The unit knows it's in trouble; it's error light comes on at the right > time. Haven't gotten to spend too much time chasing this one yet, and > I'm not well equipped for this kind of mechanical repair: I lack the > tension meter needed to check the drive against the manual specs. I've never needed the tension gauge for this part. It's pretty crude and in general prolems like you're seeing are cuased by a fault rather than a misadjustment. Take the circlip off the centre spindle and remove the supply reel. Then take a look. -tony From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 14:53:37 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:53:37 +0000 Subject: Semi-OT: recommend a fast, high-capacity sheet-fed scanner? Message-ID: Hi list, I'd like to pick your collective brains, if I may? I have quite a few books here which, though I'd like to keep the content, do take up a lot of space*. I'm looking at some kind of solution for scanning them, and so far "cutting the spines off and loading the pages into a sheet-fed scanner" seems likely to be fastest - I can't afford an automatic book scanner, and whilst there are units like the Mustek OpticBook range, it'd take forever to be there picking the book up, turning the page and replacing it for each scan. This is only semi-OT inasmuch as I know various people on the list need to scan classic-computer-related documentation from time to time, so this info may be useful to others. So - does anyone know of a make/model scanner which has a high (ideally 100 pages or more) sheet-feed capacity, is fast (ideally SCSI, maybe USB2, Firewire is third choice) and produces good results for this sort of thing? New or secondhand is fine. Thanks, Ed. * nothing of any historic or cultural significance - mainly just recipe books. I wouldn't destroy anything rare or important. From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 21 15:02:44 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:02:44 -0000 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009301c88b8e$888036a0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Tony Duell wrote: > Assuming there are at least 367 PDP enthusiasts in the world, then the > pigeonhole princiiple proves that at least 2 will share a birthday. Only if there's a rule requiring 366 such enthusiasts to have their birthdays on different days :-) Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1337 - Release Date: 20/03/2008 20:10 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 21 15:16:16 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:16:16 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: recommend a fast, high-capacity sheet-fed scanner? Message-ID: <47E41790.8070504@bitsavers.org> > So - does anyone know of a make/model scanner which has a high > (ideally 100 pages or more) sheet-feed capacity, is fast (ideally > SCSI, maybe USB2, Firewire is third choice) and produces good results > for this sort of thing? There are many. I'm currently using a Kodak 2500D, which can be found used for a few hundred dollars on eBay. From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 15:18:22 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:18:22 -0700 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <009301c88b8e$888036a0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <009301c88b8e$888036a0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <7d3530220803211318p2a99ce26h2d01cfd5c8a47623@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > Assuming there are at least 367 PDP enthusiasts in the world, then the > > pigeonhole princiiple proves that at least 2 will share a birthday. > > Only if there's a rule requiring 366 such enthusiasts to have their > birthdays on different days :-) > No... you could have all 367 people with the same birthday and the pigeonhole principle still holds true. Given N days and M people where M > N, you obviously have at least M-N days with intersections of birthdays. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Mar 21 15:19:06 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:19:06 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: recommend a fast, high-capacity sheet-fed scanner? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47E4183A.3090501@pacbell.net> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Hi list, > > I'd like to pick your collective brains, if I may? ... > So - does anyone know of a make/model scanner which has a high > (ideally 100 pages or more) sheet-feed capacity, is fast (ideally > SCSI, maybe USB2, Firewire is third choice) and produces good results > for this sort of thing? New or secondhand is fine. Get a scanner that does duplexing in a single pass. This means it has CCDs on both sides of the paper. Scanners which have a mechanical contraption to flip over each page are very much slower than if you read all the fronts, manually flip them over, and then read all backs. I fell for the intentionally misleading HP description of their scanjet 8270. The summary description made it sound like it had dual CCDs, but in fact it doesn't. I now use it only in simplex mode and scan fronts and backs in separate passes. These days, for most pages, I scan 1 bpp @ 400 dpi. I sometimes do covers in color if the original is in color, but then I also scan at lower resolution, since such covers often have only very large fonts on them and don't require 400 dpi. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 21 15:15:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:15:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <009301c88b8e$888036a0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> from "Antonio Carlini" at Mar 21, 8 08:02:44 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Assuming there are at least 367 PDP enthusiasts in the world, then the > > pigeonhole princiiple proves that at least 2 will share a birthday. > > Only if there's a rule requiring 366 such enthusiasts to have their > birthdays on different days :-) Not so. If there are at least 367 PDP enthusiasts then at least 2 have a common birthday. But I didn't say that _only_ 2 share a brithday, or that there are n 3 that share a birthday. It's possible of course, for all 367 to have the same birthday, or for there to be a common birthday in a smaller set of people. So my original statement stands. Give a set of 367 people (in this case PDP enthusiasts), it's certain that 2 of them will share a birthday. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 21 15:37:28 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:37:28 -0000 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009601c88b93$624547a0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Tony Duell wrote: > Not so. If there are at least 367 PDP enthusiasts then at least 2 > have a common birthday. I misread the original statement and somehow mentally added a requirement that the birthday be on a specific day. I can only assume that the shock caused by an assumption that there might be 367 PDP enthusiasts was responsible for my aberration ! Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1337 - Release Date: 20/03/2008 20:10 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 21 16:43:20 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:43:20 -0400 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 20, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> First is an HP9810A. I just powered it up...Several LEDs turn on >> immediately, but the display is blank and the keys are unresponsive. >> Does anyone (Tony?) have any troubleshooting hints? Are schematics >> for this machine floating around anywhere? > > However did you guess that I've worked on this machine :-). ... [huge pile of excellent troubleshooting information snipped] Wow, thank you Tony! I hope to work on the 9810A within the next few days. I'm very excited about getting it working again. I'll let you know how it goes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 21 17:02:07 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:02:07 -0600 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803211318p2a99ce26h2d01cfd5c8a47623@mail.gmail.com> References: <009301c88b8e$888036a0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> <7d3530220803211318p2a99ce26h2d01cfd5c8a47623@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47E4305F.1050203@jetnet.ab.ca> John Floren wrote: > No... you could have all 367 people with the same birthday and the > pigeonhole principle still holds true. Given N days and M people where > M > N, you obviously have at least M-N days with intersections of > birthdays. I was hatched! :) > John Since birthdays is a organic function, I suspect the frequency of birthdays may not be linear. I wonder how that affects the odds? From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 21 17:13:27 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:13:27 -0500 Subject: Matchpoint/DOB on 386/20? In-Reply-To: <47E39BC4.29131.49E2542@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47E39BC4.29131.49E2542@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47E43307.70407@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Please respond privately if you don't think a 20-year old topic is > appropriate for the list. > > I was wondering if anyone's tried to use a Microsolutions Match Point > and/or a Central Point Deluxe option board on a 386/20. I'll be > using an old Micronics system (no custom VLSI) if that's any help. > > I'd like to find out if this works before I get out my screwdriver. I used a Central Point Option Board on a 386sx-16 and a 386dx-40 so I'd say you're safe. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From vwsage at adam.com.au Fri Mar 21 07:04:10 2008 From: vwsage at adam.com.au (Vaughan Karin Sage) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:34:10 +1030 Subject: NEC H03 APC III Message-ID: <000601c88b4b$ac6fb830$6501a8c0@homeeb7b058f31> Hi, I have an old NEC H03 APC III that has the inbuilt twin 8"floppies & colour screen. I have blown the High Tension transformer on the board to the left of the VDU. Wondering if anyone has parts for this old beastie. I used it to run EZCAM for 2axis CNC machining & would love to get it going again. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Mar 22 08:46:23 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:46:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: partnumber(s) of a TC-11 Message-ID: <11778.88.211.153.27.1206193583.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello, Can abyone help me with the partnumber or partnumbers of a TC11 controller (which is for the TU-56 tapedrives). Thanks, Ed From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Mar 22 09:20:39 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:20:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius-1 re-assembly In-Reply-To: <11778.88.211.153.27.1206193583.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200803221420.m2MEKRVb049273@keith.ezwind.net> Hi folks, I have a slight problem here.... Several months ago, I disassembled my Sirius-1 to try to ascertain why the hard-disk was not working. I've not actually got any further with that yet, so I decided today to re-assemble the machine, a) because I was fed up of the bits all lying around getting in the way, and b) because I was worried that I might lose some of the screws, etc. Now, the problem... There's a whole stack of connectors which come out of the FDD drive, and hook into a big long set of pins on the board which sits over the top of the disk drives. I did make a note of which went where, but that's on my "normal" computer, which is currently in Spain (unlike me)... So - does anyone know what order the B: drive connectors should be plugged into on the drive board? The connectors are marked thus (switch to a fixed-pitch font for clarity): MX-9 (2 off - I shall call them MX-9a and MX-9b): MX-9a has 5 pins & 4 wires coloured Yellow, Green, Red, Blue MX-9b has 4 pins & 4 wires coloured Black, Green, Brown, Red MX-3 has 3 pins & 3 white wires MX-19 has 4 pins & 2 white wires MX-8 has 4 pins & 2 white wires MX-11 has 4 pins & 4 white wires Note: Where a connector is not fully populated, all wires are in LH-most positions. On the circuit board, the positions are marked out for the connectors thus: B21 aka J8 has 5 pins (MX-9a) B11 aka J9 has 4 pins (MX-9b) B9 aka J10 has 4 pins B22 aka J11 has 3 pins (MX-3) B8 aka J12 has 4 pins B12 aka J13 has 5 pins I've guessed at MX-9a & b based on the no. of pins & length of wires (MX-9b won't stretch much further than position B11/J9); and MX-3 seems obvious because it's the only 3-pin connector. The others, however, are a mystery without my original reference... So, Q is: Does anyone have a Sirius-1 they could pop the top off to have a look at what order the connectors are in? Also... And this one I *didn't* make a note of (more fool me); next to the power brick are 2 MOLEX connectors going to the HDD. Both plugs (HDD side) have 4 wires coming out - one has 4 black wires, the other 4 white wires. On the PSU side, one socket has four black wires, the other has 2 black & one white wire, and a gap. Any idea which goes where? I'm guessing you'd need a hard-drive equipped Sirius to determine that one... Many thanks in advance! Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1338 - Release Date: 21/03/2008 17:52 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 22 15:20:57 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 13:20:57 -0700 Subject: Matchpoint/DOB on 386/20? In-Reply-To: <200803221800.m2MI0KmD006968@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803221800.m2MI0KmD006968@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47E507B9.11074.A2BD62A@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:13:27 -0500 > From: Jim Leonard > I used a Central Point Option Board on a 386sx-16 and a 386dx-40 so I'd > say you're safe. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) How about the Matchpoint? Anyone? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 22 16:03:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 21:03:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sirius-1 re-assembly In-Reply-To: <200803221420.m2MEKRVb049273@keith.ezwind.net> from "Ade Vickers" at Mar 22, 8 02:20:39 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > I have a slight problem here.... Several months ago, I disassembled my > Sirius-1 to try to ascertain why the hard-disk was not working. I've not > actually got any further with that yet, so I decided today to re-assemble > the machine, a) because I was fed up of the bits all lying around getting in > the way, and b) because I was worried that I might lose some of the screws, > etc. > > Now, the problem... There's a whole stack of connectors which come out of > the FDD drive, and hook into a big long set of pins on the board which sits > over the top of the disk drives. I did make a note of which went where, but > that's on my "normal" computer, which is currently in Spain (unlike me)... > > So - does anyone know what order the B: drive connectors should be plugged > into on the drive board? > > The connectors are marked thus (switch to a fixed-pitch font for clarity): > > MX-9 (2 off - I shall call them MX-9a and MX-9b): > MX-9a has 5 pins & 4 wires coloured Yellow, Green, Red, Blue > MX-9b has 4 pins & 4 wires coloured Black, Green, Brown, Red > > MX-3 has 3 pins & 3 white wires > MX-19 has 4 pins & 2 white wires > MX-8 has 4 pins & 2 white wires > MX-11 has 4 pins & 4 white wires Are you sure you're quoting the right numbers here? The numbers that matter are the ones stamped in black on the connector housings. I my Sirius (twin floppy model), the connectors are : 9 (4 pins, 2 white wires) to the front panel LED 21 (5 pins, Y, Gn, R, Bu wires to the spindle motor) 12 (4 pins, Bk, Gn, Br, R wires to the stepper) 8 (4 pins, 4 white wires to the write protect and door open switches) OR 8 (4 pins, 2 white wires to the write protect switch and 22 (3 pins, 3 white wires) to the door switch) 11 (4 white wires to the track 0 sensor Now : the connectors on the PCB are : J6 (A11) - 11 of drive A, track 0 J9 (B11) - 11 of drive B, track 0 J5 (A9) - 9 of deive A, LED J10 (B9) - 9 of drive B, LED J3 (A8) - 8 of drive A , write protect J4 (A22) - 22 of drive A, door switch (if used) J12 (B8) - 8 of drive B, write protect J11 (B22) - 22 of drive B, door switch (if used) J2 (A12) - 12 of drive A, stepper J13 (B12) - 12 of drive B, stepper J7 (A21) - 21 of drive A, spindle motor J8 (B21) - 21 of drive B, spindle motor > > Note: Where a connector is not fully populated, all wires are in LH-most > positions. > > > On the circuit board, the positions are marked out for the connectors thus: > > B21 aka J8 has 5 pins (MX-9a) Spindle mortor > B11 aka J9 has 4 pins (MX-9b) Track 0 sensor > B9 aka J10 has 4 pins Front panel LED > B22 aka J11 has 3 pins (MX-3) Door swtich > B8 aka J12 has 4 pins Write protect switch > B12 aka J13 has 5 pins Head stepper. The plug has 5 pins. One of them is conencted to the +12V line (find this on the +ve end of C28, for example), and that's the one that's not conencted to the stepper motor. > > I've guessed at MX-9a & b based on the no. of pins & length of wires (MX-9b > won't stretch much further than position B11/J9); and MX-3 seems obvious I think you've got one of thsoe wrong... > because it's the only 3-pin connector. The others, however, are a mystery > without my original reference... I'd trace the wiring to the various bits on the chassis and plug in as above. > > So, Q is: Does anyone have a Sirius-1 they could pop the top off to have a > look at what order the connectors are in? DOn't need to, I've got my schematics to hand... > > > Also... And this one I *didn't* make a note of (more fool me); next to the > power brick are 2 MOLEX connectors going to the HDD. Both plugs (HDD side) > have 4 wires coming out - one has 4 black wires, the other 4 white wires. On > the PSU side, one socket has four black wires, the other has 2 black & one > white wire, and a gap. Any idea which goes where? I'm guessing you'd need a > hard-drive equipped Sirius to determine that one... Alas I can't help you there. I only have a floppy drive machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 22 15:39:12 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 20:39:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 21, 8 05:43:20 pm Message-ID: > > On Mar 20, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> First is an HP9810A. I just powered it up...Several LEDs turn on > >> immediately, but the display is blank and the keys are unresponsive. > >> Does anyone (Tony?) have any troubleshooting hints? Are schematics > >> for this machine floating around anywhere? > > > > However did you guess that I've worked on this machine :-). > ... > [huge pile of excellent troubleshooting information snipped] > > Wow, thank you Tony! I hope to work on the 9810A within the next few > days. I'm very excited about getting it working again. I'll let you > know how it goes. Be warned that's only the start. I've worked on a couple of 9810s, a 9820 and a 9830 (all of which use the same CPU boards and are basically the same architecture). Some faults have been very easy to find, but I've had at least one that's had me staring at the logic analyser for hours ;-). If quick checks don;'t find the fualt, I would seriously recomend looking at the CPU microcode address lines and asking me nicely for the source listings. There's a web page (or there was a web page) from a guy in Germany who had a logic fault on his 9810 that I talked to him about. He connected a '688 comparator to the microcode address lines with the other inputs coming from switches. He could then see what micorcode instructions were being executed (although not their order) and quickly found it was stuck in the I/O loop. That got him to the faulty section quite quickly. Worth remembering if you don't have a logic analyser. The logic fault in my 9820 (bought as 'non working' on E-bay, which was an accurate description. It didn't work, but it was complete and not messed about with) was evil. OK, the display was blank (no suprise there). Doing the tests I suggested before showed that M(15)...M(12) were toggling, all lower M (memory address) lines were stuck low. OK, I thought, the shift register responsible for M11..M8 has failed, its outputs are always low, so the lower half of the M register just gets 0s shifted into it. I replaced that chip, only to still have a blank display. And worse still, the M-line activity was unchanged. I looked at the logic analyser more carefully and saw that the timing of the top 4 M lines was crazy. There were not being latched. So the lower 3/4s of the M register was, indeed always having a 0 on its input at the active edge of the clock -- it seemed to be working correct. I rreplaced the top 4-bit shfit reigster in the M regisater and the machine sprang to life. Anyway, back to your machine. When you've got the logic working, that's by no means the end of the restoration. The card reader roller will need replacing, my merhod for doing this involves pulling the old hub off the spindle and replacing it with a new one with a groove machined in it to take an O-ring. Not hard if you have a lathe, but almost impossible if you don't. I did have one machine where the hu was glued ot the spindle. Trying to pull it off resulted in the spindle buckling, then shattering, and a fright4ened cat ran from my workshop. I then had to calm the cat down and make a new spidnle from metal rod. The printer platten may have decyaed too. If you find sticky black gunge on the mainoard under the printer then that's where it came from. 3M 'Cold Shrink' can be used to replace this (Thanks to the 2 people on the MoHPC forum who suggested it). If you need to do it, I can talk you through it. You may have gueessed I like this series of HPs. Although the 9100 is historically more interesting (it was the first) and a beautiful piece of electronics, I find the 98x0 machinss more interesting in some ways. They were a lot easier to interface and the HP interfaces are themselves something to investigate. -tony From drew at asideworldwide.com Sat Mar 22 11:35:57 2008 From: drew at asideworldwide.com (Drew Cohen) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:35:57 -0700 Subject: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade Message-ID: <01fe01c88c3a$ce97b620$6601a8c0@DREUTRON> Hi - I'm looking for a PET 8032 for a photo shoot in Los Angeles. Could I possibly rent one from you? Are they for sale? Thanks! Drew (310)876-0304 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Mar 22 17:28:43 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:28:43 -0300 Subject: goodies from storage: HP9810A, PDP-11/05 References: <009301c88b8e$888036a0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC><7d3530220803211318p2a99ce26h2d01cfd5c8a47623@mail.gmail.com> <47E4305F.1050203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <005b01c88c6c$3a1a2e10$02fea8c0@portajara> > Since birthdays is a organic function, I suspect the frequency of > birthdays > may not be linear. I wonder how that affects the odds? Well, festivities helps a lot: Christmas, new year, valentine's day... From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Mar 22 21:29:44 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 02:29:44 -0000 Subject: Sirius-1 re-assembly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200803230229.m2N2TbZt013017@keith.ezwind.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> MX-9 (2 off - I shall call them MX-9a and MX-9b): >> MX-9a has 5 pins & 4 wires coloured Yellow, Green, Red, Blue >> MX-9b has 4 pins & 4 wires coloured Black, Green, Brown, Red >> >> MX-3 has 3 pins & 3 white wires >> MX-19 has 4 pins & 2 white wires >> MX-8 has 4 pins & 2 white wires >> MX-11 has 4 pins & 4 white wires > > Are you sure you're quoting the right numbers here? The numbers > that matter are the ones stamped in black on the connector > housings. I my Sirius (twin floppy model), the connectors are : I have no black numbers printed on the connectors - only the MX- numbers (which are moulded), and another number (starts with a 4) which is the same on all the connectors. I'll have another look tomorrow (er, today I mean), but I'm 99% sure there's nothing on them. > (list of stuff cut, ta) Hmm, I may have to take the drive carrier out again to see if I've got one of the wires tangled. From what you're saying, one of the coloured batch belongs on B21 (J8); and it'll be a real stretch to make it reach at the moment. Now, from your list, J13 (B12) (5-pin connection printed on the circuit board) should have connector 12 in it - which has only 4 pins.... Is the unconnected pin on the LH or RH end? > > because it's the only 3-pin connector. The others, however, are a > > mystery without my original reference... > > I'd trace the wiring to the various bits on the chassis and plug > in as above. I'll certainly try... But I'm not willing to re-power it until I've sorted the power plugs... Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1339 - Release Date: 22/03/2008 16:43 From doug at stillhq.com Sun Mar 23 02:51:02 2008 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:51:02 +1100 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <200803221800.m2MI0KmH006968@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803221800.m2MI0KmH006968@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47E60BE6.3010605@stillhq.com> Hi List, Following the wonderful advice so for, My shiny PDP 11/04 has now been upgraded to a 11/34, and I have a temporary terminator pack for my RL01 disk drive. I suspect that I have a system that is capable of booting. - Wo Hoo. (read - the disks spin, and the fault light stays off.....) My final problem (Dont hold me to that though) is that I while I have a number of disk packs, I don't believe that I have anything to boot!! The packs are not really usefully labeled. Having trawled the list, I can find many many messages about archiving data off RL disk packs, and onto archival systems (such as emulators, etc) - bit I cant find anything about how to take a disk image, and put it onto an real RL01 attached to real PDP11 where there is no other media... I suspect that I have to load in a serial receiver program, and dump an image - but the details are so far, sparse.... If somebody could provide some pointers - that would be awesome..... In an ideal world, I would be able to get RSTS onto this system (I have dual RL01's - so that may not work) - Alternately, just being able to boot RT11 to load a Forth interpreter would also work. [Yes, this is where I admit to being a Forth person - I hope people will still want to talk to me having admitted that] Thanks Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 23 02:59:58 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 00:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cassette interface of Panasonic HHC Message-ID: <57075.68.121.162.227.1206259198.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Can anyone provide a summary of how to use the cassette interface on a Panasonic HHC (or Quasar, etc.)? I don't have the relevant manuals. I expect that there must be some way to transfer files between memory (either internal RAM or external RAM modules) and the cassette, but it's not obvious how to do it, and the I/O menu doesn't list the cassette interface. Thanks, Eric From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Mar 23 06:10:00 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 11:10:00 +0000 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <47E60BE6.3010605@stillhq.com> References: <200803221800.m2MI0KmH006968@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47E60BE6.3010605@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <1206270600.29726.64.camel@elric> On Sun, 2008-03-23 at 18:51 +1100, Doug Jackson wrote: > If somebody could provide some pointers - that would be awesome..... In > an ideal world, I would be able to get RSTS onto this system (I have > dual RL01's - so that may not work) - Alternately, just being able to > boot RT11 to load a Forth interpreter would also work. [Yes, this is > where I admit to being a Forth person - I hope people will still want to > talk to me having admitted that] You're looking for vtserver, which will dump a disk image across a serial link (very very slowly). By far the easiest way would be to get someone near you to come round with some bootable media. You don't say where you are, but I'm sure someone can help you out here. Gordon From davis at saw.net Sun Mar 23 08:15:24 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 05:15:24 -0800 Subject: NRI 832 restoration. Message-ID: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> I've started restoring a National Radio Institute (remember the 60's pop-sci ads?) model 832 computer.The system was functional when I received it about 15 years ago, but it's showing it's age now.This system is very fragile, All the signal connection use 22-24? gauge kynar, tack soldered to the edges of machine screw sockets, the sockets being used to test and experiment with the dozen+ circuit boards constructed during the training program. I've looked on the net and can find close to nothing on this machine. Does anyone have schematics?or do I need to tear this thing down and draw up a decent print? Thanks. Jim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 23 10:23:12 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 11:23:12 -0400 Subject: RK05 rack slides? Message-ID: <43b16fb3b723e287ddb2ca174f97f532@neurotica.com> I have the age-old problem of a bunch of RK05 drives with only the "drive" half of the rack slides, and no "rack" half. Does anyone here have a stash of RK05 rack slides? Oh, and the other thing I'm looking for is a half-height (3U, 5.25") black blank panel, of the type that's often used on the top half of the front of a 10.5" PDP-11/34 chassis. I don't have much cash to offer (still trying to recover from a stretch of unemployment earlier this year) but I have LOTS of DEC stuff to trade. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Mar 23 12:40:14 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:40:14 -0400 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <0JY6006JLMBODZP9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JY6006JLMBODZP9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Mar 23, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Allison wrote: >> Following the wonderful advice so for, My shiny PDP 11/04 has now been >> upgraded to a 11/34, and I have a temporary terminator pack for my >> RL01 >> disk drive. >> >> I suspect that I have a system that is capable of booting. - Wo Hoo. >> (read - the disks spin, and the fault light stays off.....) >> >> My final problem (Dont hold me to that though) is that I while I have >> a >> number of disk packs, I don't believe that I have anything to boot!! >> The packs are not really usefully labeled. >> >> Having trawled the list, I can find many many messages about archiving >> data off RL disk packs, and onto archival systems (such as emulators, >> etc) - bit I cant find anything about how to take a disk image, and >> put >> it onto an real RL01 attached to real PDP11 where there is no other >> media... I suspect that I have to load in a serial receiver program, >> and dump an image - but the details are so far, sparse.... >> >> If somebody could provide some pointers - that would be awesome..... >> In >> an ideal world, I would be able to get RSTS onto this system (I have >> dual RL01's - so that may not work) - Alternately, just being able to >> boot RT11 to load a Forth interpreter would also work. [Yes, this is >> where I admit to being a Forth person - I hope people will still want >> to >> talk to me having admitted that] > > Two ways I know of and they are essentailly the same. Create a pack > on a > working system or bring up a pack from a working sytems. Other options > are a floppy based bring up (RT11 fits on floppy) or maybe loading core > via serial line with a bottable image. Last option is emulateted Tu58 > where the PC acts as a TU58 with RT11 and you use a serial line to boot > and run fromt hat to create a RL pack. IN any case I don't think > anyone > has come up with a way to write a RL from a PC directly. Generally > every > one has at least one other media (RX01/2 or RX50 OR TK50, TUxx) for > portability. > > It's look at the option where someone creates a pack for you or loans > a pack or the emulated TU58 option. Using vtserver is a good option here. Though I'm currently having trouble with it with an 11/23 I'm trying to load with RSTS/E, I've had good luck with it in the past with RSTS/E and 2.11BSD on an 11/83. I think my 11/23's console SLU is somehow flakey and screwing with data transfer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Mar 23 13:55:23 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:55:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DEF2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DEF2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <47E6A79B.2000902@comcast.net> Rod, I use both Tek scopes here, a 465 and a TDS410A. Most Tek scopes have the facility to perform a single sweep trigger to detect pulses such as that. However old your Tek scope is, there's supposed to be a button to select between 'Auto' and 'Single Swp' triggering. Also, there is a trigger source selector, this can be set for Chan.1, since your most likely to have one scope probe hooked up already. Then in the same area of the trigger panel there is an arming indicator light. This will let you know the scope is ready to detect a pulse after you set the trigger level--adjusting this to the middle should be good enough. You can also set the Horz sweep to somewhere between 100nsec and 500nsec to get a visual with the brightness turned up alittle more since it will be quick. If the pulse is detected the arming indicator will clear and the trigger indicator will blink just once. You'll have to arm the trigger again by selecting the "single sweep' button to check each signal. hope that helps, =Dan [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I recently aquired a complete PDP-8/e. As it had not run for a > while I took the usual precautions of reforming the electrolytics in the > PSU as well as dismantling the whole system and cleaning everything. > I was rewarded with a working system. I started to run some simple > toggle in programs and got to the stage of driving a VT 320 with a > display of whole the character set at 110baud. > > I was about to toggle in the next test which would have been a keyboard > echo routine when I discovered I could no longer load anything into > memory. > Load address works but setting the data to load into memory in the > switch register and raising DEP no longer writes the data to memory. > . > RUN works so it looks like the timing plus the RUN/STOP flipflop are > running ok. > However one shot operations like DEP and EXAM are difficult to diagnose > as is hard to see a one off 500nS pulse. > I don't think its the memory itself ( 4 x 4K of core) as I have tried > each 4K bank on its own with the same result. > I do have the CPU manual and a decent Tektronix scope. > Has anybody any suggestions? > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 23 14:14:59 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:14:59 -0700 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <47E60BE6.3010605@stillhq.com> References: <200803221800.m2MI0KmH006968@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47E60BE6.3010605@stillhq.com> Message-ID: At 6:51 PM +1100 3/23/08, Doug Jackson wrote: >If somebody could provide some pointers - that would be awesome..... >In an ideal world, I would be able to get RSTS onto this system (I >have dual RL01's - so that may not work) - Alternately, just being >able to boot RT11 to load a Forth interpreter would also work. [Yes, >this is where I admit to being a Forth person - I hope people will >still want to talk to me having admitted that] With dual RL01's you're going to be fairly limited on space, I don't know how old of a version of RSTS/E you'd need to go with in order to get it to fit. RT-11 is a good choice for a system with that limited of disk space. The easiest way to do what you want is to have a VMS system capable of reading and writing RL01's. I have a MicroVAX III buried in storage that was built for just this purpose. The other advantage of a VAX (or Alpha) is that you can use it to backup tapes to TPC images and restore those images back to tape. You can do all of this with an RSX-11M/M+ system as well, but TCP/IP is included with Hobbyist VMS. Getting to the point you can easily do all this was a time consuming process 10 years ago, not sure how hard the stuff is to get now. OTOH, there are some other options now, and the software is easier to obtain. Another way to do this easily is get a SCSI adapter for your system. Of course that can be difficult to do affordably. With the right setup, it is possible to install at least RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ off of a CD. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Sun Mar 23 14:35:35 2008 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:35:35 +0100 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator Message-ID: <0kjhTLuILloDjbBnrznTPKI5hN6zIQBQfa3MOwSNpd4@akmail> > My final problem (Dont hold me to that though) is that I while I have a > number of disk packs, I don't believe that I have anything to boot!! > The packs are not really usefully labeled. > Having trawled the list, I can find many many messages about archiving > data off RL disk packs, and onto archival systems (such as emulators, > etc) - bit I cant find anything about how to take a disk image, and put > it onto an real RL01 attached to real PDP11 where there is no other > media... I suspect that I have to load in a serial receiver program, > and dump an image - but the details are so far, sparse.... Hi Doug, I usually transfer software to my RL packs this way: 1. I prepare a disk image with simh on my PC 2. I transfer the image file with ftp onto my PDP-11/83 (RD54 system disk) running ULTRIX-11 V3.1 (with TCP/IP!) 3. The said PDP-11/83 has got an RL controller & drive and I use both to put the image onto a RL disk pack with the help of 'dd'. This method has proven its reliability several times with different PDP-11 OSses as well as with XXDP. Unfortunately you might be missing a PDP-11 capable of running ULTRIX-11 ... Regards Ulli P.S. A MicroVAX (e.g. MV II) with an RL Controller should do as well. Copying disk images to real disks with VMS is no problem at all. I've done it very often with RD3x and RD5x disks. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 23 14:36:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:36:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sirius-1 re-assembly In-Reply-To: <200803230229.m2N2TbZt013017@keith.ezwind.net> from "Ade Vickers" at Mar 23, 8 02:29:44 am Message-ID: > > Are you sure you're quoting the right numbers here? The numbers > > that matter are the ones stamped in black on the connector > > housings. I my Sirius (twin floppy model), the connectors are : > > I have no black numbers printed on the connectors - only the MX- numbers > (which are moulded), and another number (starts with a 4) which is the same > on all the connectors. Oh dear. You've got wome wiring to trace... > > I'll have another look tomorrow (er, today I mean), but I'm 99% sure there's > nothing on them. > > > > (list of stuff cut, ta) > > Hmm, I may have to take the drive carrier out again to see if I've got one > of the wires tangled. From what you're saying, one of the coloured batch > belongs on B21 (J8); and it'll be a real stretch to make it reach at the > moment. Yes. The connector numbering is actually the same as the connectors in a Tandon TM100, and number 21 is the psindle motor. It'll be 4 coloured wires (2 of the motor, 2 for the tacho) that go to that component. > > Now, from your list, J13 (B12) (5-pin connection printed on the circuit > board) should have connector 12 in it - which has only 4 pins.... Is the > unconnected pin on the LH or RH end? I don't know, but I explained it last night. Sirius used several different drive mechanisms in these machines, or at least had the capability to do so. The stepper motor is either 4 windings with a common connection (5 wires) or 2 separate windings (4 wires). The board can handle either (unlike, BTW, the Commodore 8050 which is of course somwhat similar, in that unit, there are 2 different 'analogue boards' for the 2 types of stepper motor). Anyway. one end pin on the PCB-mounted plug is linked to the +12V rail. That's the one you _don't use_ if you have a 4-wire motor. > > > > because it's the only 3-pin connector. The others, however, are a > > > mystery without my original reference... > > > > I'd trace the wiring to the various bits on the chassis and plug > > in as above. > > I'll certainly try... But I'm not willing to re-power it until I've sorted > the power plugs... Err, can't you just trace the grounds, +5V, etch on the connectors to see what would make sense? -tony From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Mar 23 15:06:41 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:06:41 -0000 Subject: Sirius-1 re-assembly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200803232006.m2NK6QRZ095624@keith.ezwind.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > I have no black numbers printed on the connectors - only the MX- > > numbers (which are moulded), and another number (starts with a 4) > > which is the same on all the connectors. > > Oh dear. You've got wome wiring to trace... Joy :) > > Hmm, I may have to take the drive carrier out again to see if I've got > > one of the wires tangled. From what you're saying, one of the coloured > > batch belongs on B21 (J8); and it'll be a real stretch to make it > > reach at the moment. > > Yes. The connector numbering is actually the same as the connectors in > a Tandon TM100, and number 21 is the psindle motor. It'll be 4 coloured > wires (2 of the motor, 2 for the tacho) that go to that component. OK. Well, that's the drive carrier coming out again then, and both the boards back off (damn). Are those schematics you talked about readily available for download anywhere (ie in the public domain), or are they ones you made yourself? > > Now, from your list, J13 (B12) (5-pin connection printed on the > > circuit board) should have connector 12 in it - which has only 4 > > pins.... Is the unconnected pin on the LH or RH end? > > I don't know, but I explained it last night. Sirius used several different > drive mechanisms in these machines, or at least had the capability to do > so. The stepper motor is either 4 windings with a common connection (5 > wires) or 2 separate windings (4 wires). The board can handle either (unlike, > BTW, the Commodore 8050 which is of course somwhat similar, in that unit, > there are 2 different 'analogue boards' for the 2 types of stepper motor). > Anyway. one end pin on the PCB-mounted plug is linked to the +12V rail. > That's the one you _don't use_ if you have a 4-wire motor. OK, so I just need to find that 12v line & avoid it - gotcha. > > I'll certainly try... But I'm not willing to re-power it until I've > > sorted the power plugs... > Err, can't you just trace the grounds, +5V, etch on the connectors > to see what would make sense? Yep, I guess so... Just need to dissasemble it all again. Still that's no problem now I know how it all comes apart & goes together. Thanks again, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1339 - Release Date: 22/03/2008 16:43 From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Mar 23 15:34:54 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NRI 832 restoration. In-Reply-To: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> Message-ID: <742614.88520.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- davis wrote: > I've looked on the net and can find close to nothing on this machine. > Does anyone have schematics?or do I need to tear this thing down and > draw up a decent print? I have a set of schematics for this machine. I will scan them and send you a copy. What I do not have is a user's manual, or any documentation on programming the machine. --Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 23 16:01:31 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:01:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sirius-1 re-assembly In-Reply-To: <200803232006.m2NK6QRZ095624@keith.ezwind.net> from "Ade Vickers" at Mar 23, 8 08:06:41 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have no black numbers printed on the connectors - only the MX- > > > numbers (which are moulded), and another number (starts with a 4) > > > which is the same on all the connectors. > > > > Oh dear. You've got wome wiring to trace... > > Joy :) Well, you don't need to trace out the detailed wiring, only which plug goes to the track 0 sensor, which to the frontpanel LED, and so on. > > > > Hmm, I may have to take the drive carrier out again to see if I've got > > > one of the wires tangled. From what you're saying, one of the coloured > > > batch belongs on B21 (J8); and it'll be a real stretch to make it > > > reach at the moment. > > > > Yes. The connector numbering is actually the same as the connectors in > > a Tandon TM100, and number 21 is the psindle motor. It'll be 4 coloured > > wires (2 of the motor, 2 for the tacho) that go to that component. > > OK. Well, that's the drive carrier coming out again then, and both the > boards back off (damn). Are those schematics you talked about readily > available for download anywhere (ie in the public domain), or are they ones > you made yourself? They're home-made (not suprisingly). I could probably be convinced to send you a copy... > > > > Now, from your list, J13 (B12) (5-pin connection printed on the > > > circuit board) should have connector 12 in it - which has only 4 > > > pins.... Is the unconnected pin on the LH or RH end? > > > > I don't know, but I explained it last night. Sirius used several different > > > drive mechanisms in these machines, or at least had the capability to do > > so. The stepper motor is either 4 windings with a common connection (5 > > wires) or 2 separate windings (4 wires). The board can handle either > (unlike, > > BTW, the Commodore 8050 which is of course somwhat similar, in that unit, > > there are 2 different 'analogue boards' for the 2 types of stepper motor). One thing I didn't mention. There may well be different firmware for the 2 types of drive, so don't go swapping them without checking. > > > Anyway. one end pin on the PCB-mounted plug is linked to the +12V rail. > > That's the one you _don't use_ if you have a 4-wire motor. > > OK, so I just need to find that 12v line & avoid it - gotcha. I mentioend that too. The +ve side of C28 is +12V. So (admittedly after some filter compoennts) is the middle pin of the spindle motor plug. > > > > I'll certainly try... But I'm not willing to re-power it until I've > > > sorted the power plugs... > > > Err, can't you just trace the grounds, +5V, etch on the connectors > > to see what would make sense? > > Yep, I guess so... Just need to dissasemble it all again. Still that's no > problem now I know how it all comes apart & goes together. THeyr'e really easy to take apart (or at least the floppy-only model is). You just have to _loosen_ the screws and things slide out. From what I rememebr, the drive chassis comes out first, then the PSU. -tony From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 17:06:27 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:06:27 -0400 Subject: mystery chip 608C62 Message-ID: <004201c88d32$24445b80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I found a mystery chip in a pile of stuff. Apparently, it was an AWARD BIOS in a former life. I can read it in my EPROM programmer and it is read compatible with a 27C512 (64Kx8 EPROM). The contents are consistent with an AWARD BIOS for a PC of some sort. However, the chip itself is rather unusual. There is no EPROM quartz window, the manufacturer symbol is a triangle, and the number is unlike anything I have seen before. Worse yet, I get no helpful hints on GOOGLE when I try. The chip number is 608C62. I am guessing it is either a One Time PROM or a mask ROM. Has anyone heard of this or know what family it is from? I am hoping it was a FLASH ROM or EEPROM but I can't seem to find anything on this chip. Any hints or help much appreciated! Andrew Lynch From davis at saw.net Sun Mar 23 21:14:09 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:14:09 -0800 Subject: NRI 832 restoration. In-Reply-To: <742614.88520.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <742614.88520.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47E70E71.7010603@saw.net> William Maddox wrote: > --- davis wrote: > > >> I've looked on the net and can find close to nothing on this machine. >> Does anyone have schematics?or do I need to tear this thing down and >> draw up a decent print? >> > > I have a set of schematics for this machine. I will scan them and > send you a copy. What I do not have is a user's manual, or any > documentation on programming the machine. > > --Bill > > > > Thanks Bill, I do not have any documentation. The original owner recently passed away. I failed to contact him about the coursework and documentation he undoubtedly did have and is now most likely in a landfill Jim.. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 23 20:26:15 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NRI 832 restoration. In-Reply-To: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> References: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, davis wrote: > I've started restoring a National Radio Institute (remember the 60's pop-sci > ads?) model 832 computer.The system was functional when I received it about If that's the machine I'm thinking of, a math teacher I had in 10th grade had built one and written a version of Othello for it. We used it to play against a Commodore 64, running Othello as well. It was pretty neat. Do you have any photos of the computer? tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Mar 23 23:34:32 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in Modcomp II gear? Message-ID: <695199.13965.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Last summer, I collected a large amount of surplus Modcomp II gear as part of a truckload computer rescue. I am looking to find homes for some of the excess. I've placed one complete system, but it looks like I have at least one more CPU. The Modcomp II is an early 70's vintage TTL machine with an instruction set that somewhat reminiscent of the IBM 360. It has a large register file, and both register-register and register-memory instructions. The CPU is packaged in a full-sized 19-inch cabinet, rather than a smaller enclosed chassis. These machines were built for real-time control in critical applications, and were a favorite of NASA. They were very solidly built. Programming and maintenance manuals, with schematics, are available. I would be interested in finding out how much interest there is in this gear. It is located in San Jose, California. --Bill From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 23 06:49:48 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 07:49:48 -0400 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator Message-ID: <0JY6006JLMBODZP9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator > From: Doug Jackson > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:51:02 +1100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi List, > >Following the wonderful advice so for, My shiny PDP 11/04 has now been >upgraded to a 11/34, and I have a temporary terminator pack for my RL01 >disk drive. > >I suspect that I have a system that is capable of booting. - Wo Hoo. >(read - the disks spin, and the fault light stays off.....) > >My final problem (Dont hold me to that though) is that I while I have a >number of disk packs, I don't believe that I have anything to boot!! >The packs are not really usefully labeled. > >Having trawled the list, I can find many many messages about archiving >data off RL disk packs, and onto archival systems (such as emulators, >etc) - bit I cant find anything about how to take a disk image, and put >it onto an real RL01 attached to real PDP11 where there is no other >media... I suspect that I have to load in a serial receiver program, >and dump an image - but the details are so far, sparse.... > >If somebody could provide some pointers - that would be awesome..... In >an ideal world, I would be able to get RSTS onto this system (I have >dual RL01's - so that may not work) - Alternately, just being able to >boot RT11 to load a Forth interpreter would also work. [Yes, this is >where I admit to being a Forth person - I hope people will still want to >talk to me having admitted that] Two ways I know of and they are essentailly the same. Create a pack on a working system or bring up a pack from a working sytems. Other options are a floppy based bring up (RT11 fits on floppy) or maybe loading core via serial line with a bottable image. Last option is emulateted Tu58 where the PC acts as a TU58 with RT11 and you use a serial line to boot and run fromt hat to create a RL pack. IN any case I don't think anyone has come up with a way to write a RL from a PC directly. Generally every one has at least one other media (RX01/2 or RX50 OR TK50, TUxx) for portability. It's look at the option where someone creates a pack for you or loans a pack or the emulated TU58 option. Allison >Thanks > >Doug From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Mar 23 07:10:49 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:10:49 -0000 Subject: PDP-8/e Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DEF2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I recently aquired a complete PDP-8/e. As it had not run for a while I took the usual precautions of reforming the electrolytics in the PSU as well as dismantling the whole system and cleaning everything. I was rewarded with a working system. I started to run some simple toggle in programs and got to the stage of driving a VT 320 with a display of whole the character set at 110baud. I was about to toggle in the next test which would have been a keyboard echo routine when I discovered I could no longer load anything into memory. Load address works but setting the data to load into memory in the switch register and raising DEP no longer writes the data to memory. . RUN works so it looks like the timing plus the RUN/STOP flipflop are running ok. However one shot operations like DEP and EXAM are difficult to diagnose as is hard to see a one off 500nS pulse. I don't think its the memory itself ( 4 x 4K of core) as I have tried each 4K bank on its own with the same result. I do have the CPU manual and a decent Tektronix scope. Has anybody any suggestions? Rod Smallwood From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Mar 23 14:38:07 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:38:07 -0400 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator Message-ID: <0JY700KBK7PW6KM9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:40:14 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" I don't write all that...! >On Mar 23, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Allison wrote: >>> Following the wonderful advice so for, My shiny PDP 11/04 has now been >>> upgraded to a 11/34, and I have a temporary terminator pack for my >>> RL01 >>> disk drive. >>> >>> I suspect that I have a system that is capable of booting. - Wo Hoo. >>> (read - the disks spin, and the fault light stays off.....) >>> >>> My final problem (Dont hold me to that though) is that I while I have >>> a >>> number of disk packs, I don't believe that I have anything to boot!! >>> The packs are not really usefully labeled. >>> >>> Having trawled the list, I can find many many messages about archiving >>> data off RL disk packs, and onto archival systems (such as emulators, >>> etc) - bit I cant find anything about how to take a disk image, and >>> put >>> it onto an real RL01 attached to real PDP11 where there is no other >>> media... I suspect that I have to load in a serial receiver program, >>> and dump an image - but the details are so far, sparse.... >>> >>> If somebody could provide some pointers - that would be awesome..... >>> In >>> an ideal world, I would be able to get RSTS onto this system (I have >>> dual RL01's - so that may not work) - Alternately, just being able to >>> boot RT11 to load a Forth interpreter would also work. [Yes, this is >>> where I admit to being a Forth person - I hope people will still want >>> to >>> talk to me having admitted that] >> I did write this. >> Two ways I know of and they are essentailly the same. Create a pack >> on a >> working system or bring up a pack from a working sytems. Other options >> are a floppy based bring up (RT11 fits on floppy) or maybe loading core >> via serial line with a bottable image. Last option is emulateted Tu58 >> where the PC acts as a TU58 with RT11 and you use a serial line to boot >> and run fromt hat to create a RL pack. IN any case I don't think >> anyone >> has come up with a way to write a RL from a PC directly. Generally >> every >> one has at least one other media (RX01/2 or RX50 OR TK50, TUxx) for >> portability. >> >> It's look at the option where someone creates a pack for you or loans >> a pack or the emulated TU58 option. This works! > Using vtserver is a good option here. Though I'm currently having >trouble with it with an 11/23 I'm trying to load with RSTS/E, I've had >good luck with it in the past with RSTS/E and 2.11BSD on an 11/83. I >think my 11/23's console SLU is somehow flakey and screwing with data >transfer. Slow the data rate. Stay under 4800 as you may be getting buffer overflows. Allison > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL From plamen at r00tcrew.eu.com Sun Mar 23 18:21:06 2008 From: plamen at r00tcrew.eu.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:21:06 +0200 Subject: About Atari UNIX Message-ID: <47E6E5E2.4070005@r00tcrew.eu.com> Hello, I'm writing you because I saw a message in classiccmp.org about Atari UNIX. >> "For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a >> hard >> disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a >> diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to >> recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. >> >> If anyone is interested, I can make ghost images of the 300MB SCSI >> hard disk >> for you. One word of caution, according the Atari engineer who >> wrote Atari >> Unix, it does not work on all TT030's. Some of the units had bugs and >> issues, most came back into Atari's service center where the -33 68030's >> were replaced with slower 16mhz CPU's, so while I will guarantee that >> the >> image works, I cannot guarantee if your TT will have a problem or >> not. So >> far I've tried it out with 3 TT's and they all work. Also Atari >> Unix will >> recognize Riebl VME ethernet cards and set them as /dev/en0 so you >> can hook >> the TT up to the internet directly. I personally am going to see if >> I can >> get Apache to work on the TT as it would be great to run a website for >> Atari's on an actual Atari computer. >> >> If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and >> you pay >> shipping to and from me. >> >> >> Curt The sender email was no longer available so I'm writing in the mail-list - hope it is ok. I didn't know the Atari UNIX release recognize any ethernet device, but since Riebl will work I'm going to buy a TT and the network adapter. Can someone who got the image upload it and give me a information about restoring it on a hard drive( is it obligatory at any cost to be a 300MB hdd )? Regards, Plamen From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Mar 24 02:26:30 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 07:26:30 -0000 Subject: PDP-8/e Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DEF4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Thanks for the information. However driving the scope is not the problem. I started out as a development engineer on VDU's in the early 1970's. Hence setting up the scope is not an isssue. This paticular problem is only related to the DEP and EXAM funtions. The 8e has a cycle split into parts. DEP or EXAM occur in one cycle. There's a Flipflop (RUN) on the 8330 board that is set in a time period at the beginning of the cycle by the debounced DEP key. The memory address would have been set up manually or auto incremented by a previous DEP. The switch register contents are then transferred to the data bus and the memory signalled to write into the preset address. A signal called stop the clears the RUN flipflop at the end of the cycle. So within one cycle the contents of the switch register (data) should be witten into memory when the DEP key is raised. Only it isn't Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Roganti Sent: 23 March 2008 18:55 To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: PDP-8/e Rod, I use both Tek scopes here, a 465 and a TDS410A. Most Tek scopes have the facility to perform a single sweep trigger to detect pulses such as that. However old your Tek scope is, there's supposed to be a button to select between 'Auto' and 'Single Swp' triggering. Also, there is a trigger source selector, this can be set for Chan.1, since your most likely to have one scope probe hooked up already. Then in the same area of the trigger panel there is an arming indicator light. This will let you know the scope is ready to detect a pulse after you set the trigger level--adjusting this to the middle should be good enough. You can also set the Horz sweep to somewhere between 100nsec and 500nsec to get a visual with the brightness turned up alittle more since it will be quick. If the pulse is detected the arming indicator will clear and the trigger indicator will blink just once. You'll have to arm the trigger again by selecting the "single sweep' button to check each signal. hope that helps, =Dan [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I recently aquired a complete PDP-8/e. As it had not run for a > while I took the usual precautions of reforming the electrolytics in > the PSU as well as dismantling the whole system and cleaning everything. > I was rewarded with a working system. I started to run some simple > toggle in programs and got to the stage of driving a VT 320 with a > display of whole the character set at 110baud. > > I was about to toggle in the next test which would have been a > keyboard echo routine when I discovered I could no longer load > anything into memory. > Load address works but setting the data to load into memory in the > switch register and raising DEP no longer writes the data to memory. > . > RUN works so it looks like the timing plus the RUN/STOP flipflop are > running ok. > However one shot operations like DEP and EXAM are difficult to > diagnose as is hard to see a one off 500nS pulse. > I don't think its the memory itself ( 4 x 4K of core) as I have tried > each 4K bank on its own with the same result. > I do have the CPU manual and a decent Tektronix scope. > Has anybody any suggestions? > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Mar 24 05:00:19 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:00:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius-1 re-assembly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200803241000.m2OA03VA055558@keith.ezwind.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Well, you don't need to trace out the detailed wiring, only which > plug goes to the track 0 sensor, which to the frontpanel LED, and so on. The good news is - I was wrong: There *are* black numbers printed on the connectors :) I'm a bit nonplussed (not to mention embarrassed) that I didn't spot them earlier... So, I shall use your earlier info to place them correctly - thanks! I've still got to trace the power leads, though, so that's the first job. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1340 - Release Date: 23/03/2008 18:50 From andreww at datanet.ab.ca Mon Mar 24 07:12:33 2008 From: andreww at datanet.ab.ca (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 06:12:33 -0600 Subject: About Atari UNIX In-Reply-To: <47E6E5E2.4070005@r00tcrew.eu.com> References: <47E6E5E2.4070005@r00tcrew.eu.com> Message-ID: <47E79AB1.60804@datanet.ab.ca> Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > Hello, > > I'm writing you because I saw a message in classiccmp.org about Atari > UNIX. > >>> "For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a >>> hard >>> disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a >>> diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to >>> recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. >>> >>> If anyone is interested, I can make ghost images of the 300MB SCSI >>> hard disk >>> for you. One word of caution, according the Atari engineer who >>> wrote Atari >>> Unix, it does not work on all TT030's. Some of the units had bugs and >>> issues, most came back into Atari's service center where the -33 >>> 68030's >>> were replaced with slower 16mhz CPU's, so while I will guarantee that >>> the >>> image works, I cannot guarantee if your TT will have a problem or >>> not. So >>> far I've tried it out with 3 TT's and they all work. Also Atari >>> Unix will >>> recognize Riebl VME ethernet cards and set them as /dev/en0 so you >>> can hook >>> the TT up to the internet directly. I personally am going to see if >>> I can >>> get Apache to work on the TT as it would be great to run a website for >>> Atari's on an actual Atari computer. >>> >>> If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and >>> you pay >>> shipping to and from me. >>> >>> >>> Curt >> > The sender email was no longer available so I'm writing in the mail-list > - hope it is ok. > I didn't know the Atari UNIX release recognize any ethernet device, but > since Riebl will work > I'm going to buy a TT and the network adapter. Can someone who got the > image upload it and give me a information about restoring it on a hard > drive( is it obligatory at any cost to be a 300MB hdd )? > > Regards, > Plamen > > > > > I would also like a copy. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Mar 24 10:12:53 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:12:53 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Electronics_101] Parts Message-ID: <200803241112.53411.rtellason@verizon.net> This guy has a bunch of 74xx parts, including some numbers that I just sent the last of what I had to a listmember here. :-) Some other bits too, some of you guys might find useful. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [Electronics_101] Parts Date: Sunday 23 March 2008 04:48 From: "Ben" To: Electronics_101 at yahoogroups.com Where is a good place to post for parts that I am getting rid of?? I made a website => http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeszd6i/bensplace/ Thanks, Ben http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/ ------------------------------------------------------- -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Mar 24 14:58:11 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:58:11 -0400 Subject: mystery chip 608C62 In-Reply-To: <004201c88d32$24445b80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <004201c88d32$24445b80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200803241558.11691.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 23 March 2008 18:06, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I found a mystery chip in a pile of stuff. Apparently, it was an AWARD > BIOS in a former life. I can read it in my EPROM programmer and it is read > compatible with a 27C512 (64Kx8 EPROM). The contents are consistent with > an AWARD BIOS for a PC of some sort. > > However, the chip itself is rather unusual. There is no EPROM quartz > window, the manufacturer symbol is a triangle, and the number is unlike > anything I have seen before. Worse yet, I get no helpful hints on GOOGLE > when I try. Maybe this'll help: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/logos/semiconductorlogos.html ? A triangle sounds like Matsushita, maybe. > The chip number is 608C62. I am guessing it is either a One Time PROM or a > mask ROM. Has anyone heard of this or know what family it is from? I've not heard of that one before. > I am hoping it was a FLASH ROM or EEPROM but I can't seem to find anything > on this chip. Any hints or help much appreciated! > > Andrew Lynch -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 15:13:30 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:13:30 -0500 Subject: FTGH: Stuff! Message-ID: <9e2403920803241313u37183387r3b133bdf6bf374ab@mail.gmail.com> All, Long story short, I have a bunch of stuff that I can't currently properly take care of. I'd like it to go to homes that can use it, or at least protect it better. I live in semi-rural Texas (Bastrop, TX about 50mi east of Austin). Things listed here are technically "classic", even if there's only one minicomputer involved. I also have myriad miscellaneous PC junk that can happily go too. I'd love to have traded this stuff for repairing/refurbing my workshop, but that's not likely going to happen. This stuff is pickup only, due to size, weight, and time constraints on my part. Take one thing, or take it all. Just take it and preserve it, please. (I will part out the DG though, if you take the innards and I keep the non-OEM racks) So here's the list for all y'all: * Twin rack HEAVY Data General MV-7800/U minicomputer, with: Overall Condition: Slight external rust, racks in good shape, boards clean and intact. Last powered up in 1993. Been in uncontrolled storage since. Card List in Nova 4 CPU enclosure: 16 15 40 ISC 14 27 BMX-1 DISK 13 22 WP TAPE 12 11 10 50 SLIM-16 (16-terminal communications card) 09 65 SLIM-16 08 17 DMA-LPT 07 06 05 04 03 02 ( DAUGHTER BOARD 8MB ) 01 MV-7800 CPU 2MB Tape Drive: Cipher Data Systems MOD NO: 0910640-98-0750U PART NO: 154000-132 OPTION: B DENSITY: 1600/800 bpi HDDs (x2): Century Data Systems Model: M315-1 Serial: 12718 / 11096 Part #: 26723-248 REV: AW * Apple Macintosh SEs (x2) 2.5MB and 4/20MB models, keyboards and mice if I can find 'em. * Apple II Plus: 48k+Language card, works. * Apple IIe: works * Apple IIc Plus: Works * Apple Monitor IIc: Works * Apple IIgs (x5 or so): Various memory configurations, all worked when put up. 2 Woz, one Rom 00. * A small army of Apple II 8-bit expansion cards, Disk II drives, and other parts. * TI-99/4A: A dozen carts, speech module, CPU in original box. Works. * Apple Monitor IIgs x2: Worked last I used them. * DEC DECStation 5000/120 with 5000/260 front cover. Works. 32MB/1GB. * TRS-80 Model 16 with twin 8" drives, keyboard, printer. Untested. * More as I find it. With this stuff gone to better homes, I can spend the money and time making a real workshop out of the mess, so I can collect, repair, and use the stuff I love once again. Josef PS: You'll have to seriously barter for my spare Newtons, Model 100s, Epson PX-8s, and VAXstation 3100 M38. Those are at least kept in the house. ;-) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From julian at jnt.me.uk Mon Mar 24 15:23:52 2008 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:23:52 +0000 Subject: mystery chip 608C62 In-Reply-To: <200803241558.11691.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <004201c88d32$24445b80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <200803241558.11691.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47E80DD8.4000206@jnt.me.uk> On Sunday 23 March 2008 18:06, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I found a mystery chip in a pile of stuff. Apparently, it was an AWARD > BIOS in a former life. I can read it in my EPROM programmer and it is read > compatible with a 27C512 (64Kx8 EPROM). The contents are consistent with > an AWARD BIOS for a PC of some sort. > > However, the chip itself is rather unusual. There is no EPROM quartz > window, the manufacturer symbol is a triangle, and the number is unlike > anything I have seen before. Worse yet, I get no helpful hints on GOOGLE > when I try. > > The chip number is 608C62. I am guessing it is either a One Time PROM or a > mask ROM. Has anyone heard of this or know what family it is from? > I found it on www.datasheets.org.uk - it's listed as an equivalent to a 6264 static ram, which sounds plausible... Julian > I am hoping it was a FLASH ROM or EEPROM but I can't seem to find anything > on this chip. Any hints or help much appreciated! > > Andrew Lynch > From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Mon Mar 24 17:26:53 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:56:53 +1030 Subject: Computer in 1900 Message-ID: <6088F948-45D1-496F-ACC6-B547D18A3C9A@bigpond.net.au> Thu Feb 14 Gavin Melville wrote: > ... > As the OP who started this discussion I appreciate all the comments. > The original spec was not to invent new components, but to use things > you could actually get in 1900. Just because I know how to make > an IC > now doesn't mean I could have made one in 1900. While I could have > obtained Silicon, it's unlikely it would have been usable purity, and > the imaging, etching and depositation would be simply impossible. > > The "was it available" we have looked hardest at is the transistor, > and > could have we made a point contact transistor then, even a FET (made > before the transistor but didn't recognise it). While we might be > able > to do this, we're trying to limit our search to things we could get, > rather than make, or materials we could get rather than make ie iron > cores, as opposed to point contact transistors. ( We are, however > keeping an eye on the 256 2n2222 project). > ... As an option for I/O, you might consider a Nipkow (pronounced 'Nip- kov') disk as a mechanical video display unit. Nipkow disks were well known in 1900, and several television designs had been proposed by then (and some of them even had much, much more than a snowball's chance of working). Another thing you might consider is to use a nickel coating on the disk; with suitable read & write heads you could build a sort of bit- mapped video memory. Poulsen had demonstrated magnetic recording in 1898, and it was used in some early Marconi equipment as a detector. A sensitive mirror galvanometer connected to the read head would modulate your light source behind the scanning disk. You need to write the appropriate bit images to the tracks, but assuming the disk spins at about 1500 RPM, you only need modulate at audio frequencies to produce usable video; you could use a carbon amplifier (as used by the phone company at that time) to drive each write head. Another thing magnetic recording might do for you is as a source of higher frequencies: prerecord at slow disk RPM, read at much higher RPM. -Bobby From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 24 17:28:46 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:28:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sirius-1 re-assembly In-Reply-To: <200803241000.m2OA03VA055558@keith.ezwind.net> from "Ade Vickers" at Mar 24, 8 10:00:19 am Message-ID: > The good news is - I was wrong: There *are* black numbers printed on the > connectors :) I'm a bit nonplussed (not to mention embarrassed) that I > didn't spot them earlier... IIRC, those connectors go on with the numbers on top, away from the PCB -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 24 20:20:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:20:00 -0700 Subject: 608C62 In-Reply-To: <200803241800.m2OI06PU028211@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803241800.m2OI06PU028211@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47E7F0D0.2030.158A4D8A@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:06:27 -0400 > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Subject: mystery chip > I found a mystery chip in a pile of stuff. Apparently, it was an AWARD > BIOS in a former life. I can read it in my EPROM programmer and it is > read compatible with a 27C512 (64Kx8 EPROM). The contents are consistent > with an AWARD BIOS for a PC of some sort. Well, if it's an EPROM (OTP or flash), it should have a "silicon signature"/"intelligent identifier" readable by your EPROM programmer. Does your programmer have an auto-identify capability? Cheers, Chuck From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Mar 24 20:55:44 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:55:44 -0400 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator Message-ID: <8CA5C3278721139-C10-6383@webmail-nf11.sim.aol.com> > With dual RL01's you're going to be fairly limited on space, > I don't know how old of a version of RSTS/E you'd need > to go with in order to get it to fit. RT-11 is a good choice > for a system with that limited of disk space. RSTS/E V7.0-07 will happily reside on a single RL01 pack. Depending on the program packages you install, you could wind up with as much as 3MB of space free. Add another RL01 as a public pack, and you're "living large". ;-) His real limitation will be the amount of memory on the 11/34. If he's got 256K, then he'd be able to run between 2 - 4 maximum size jobs without swapping, depending on the size he sets for SWAPMAX. T From steerex at ccvn.com Mon Mar 24 13:25:54 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:25:54 -0500 Subject: HP-21xx BACI board References: <47D8BC11.6000407@Rikers.org>, <200803131445.m2DEjPsq023100@mail.bcpl.net>, <47D94DE1.4060703@Rikers.org> <200803131642.m2DGgjNB018937@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <000f01c88ddc$80910b90$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> Hey Guys, I'm looking for a BACI board for my HP2100. I'd be willing to trade a MicroCircuit, High Speed Interface, HPIB, or other HP2100 board for one. If anyone is willing to trade, please let me know. Thanks, Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From sieler at allegro.com Mon Mar 24 19:08:47 2008 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:08:47 -0700 Subject: HP-IB drive simulator In-Reply-To: References: , <47D9A7FE.2060102@Rikers.org>, Message-ID: <47E7E01F.4192.6C4B6341@sieler.allegro.com> Re: Dave Betz wrote: > cards pretty cheap on eBay. I'm also looking for an HP-IB floppy drive. 5.25" or 3.5" Either way, email me ... I may have a spare. Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From davis at saw.net Tue Mar 25 07:40:16 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:40:16 -0800 Subject: NRI 832 restoration. In-Reply-To: References: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> Message-ID: <47E8F2B0.3070802@saw.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, davis wrote: > >> I've started restoring a National Radio Institute (remember the 60's >> pop-sci ads?) model 832 computer.The system was functional when I >> received it about > > If that's the machine I'm thinking of, a math teacher I had in 10th > grade had built one and written a version of Othello for it. We used > it to play against a Commodore 64, running Othello as well. It was > pretty neat. > > Do you have any photos of the computer? > > tnx! > > g. > Hi Gene, What sort of pictures do you want? I'm taking hi-res photos of everything. The pictures cover the top external and internal and package, but the underside of the boards are hidden at present. The boards are silk screened with the signals on top, but the wiring is a "rats-nest", literally. Othello? I thought it might have enough memory to play NIM, but I'm surprised anything like othello was possible. This machine is packaged in a 22"X14"X8" sloping console cabinet. Blue enameled steel on the base and brushed aluminum with red silkscreen surrounding the incandescent lamps and tons of switches on the top It has storage(switches) for 16X8 bit instructions, An acc and 16 or 32?X8 bit memory registers. Jim. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 25 08:33:58 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 06:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NRI 832 restoration. In-Reply-To: <47E8F2B0.3070802@saw.net> References: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> <47E8F2B0.3070802@saw.net> Message-ID: > Hi Gene, > What sort of pictures do you want? I'm taking hi-res photos of everything. > The pictures cover the top external and internal and package, but the > underside of the boards are hidden at present. > The boards are silk screened with the signals on top, but the wiring is a > "rats-nest", literally. > The description given tells me it's clearly not the machine I played with. Thanks for offering though! > Othello? I thought it might have enough memory to play NIM, but I'm surprised > anything like othello was possible. > > This machine is packaged in a 22"X14"X8" sloping console cabinet. Blue > enameled steel on the base and brushed aluminum with red silkscreen > surrounding the incandescent lamps and tons of switches on the top > > It has storage(switches) for 16X8 bit instructions, An acc and 16 or 32?X8 > bit memory registers. The NRI machine I'm thinking of had a keyboard mounted in a sloping metal cabinet and used a TV set as a display. It was fun making it battle the '64 in Othello. I just can't recall which one did better. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From davis at saw.net Tue Mar 25 10:35:53 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:35:53 -0800 Subject: NRI 832 restoration. In-Reply-To: References: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> <47E8F2B0.3070802@saw.net> Message-ID: <47E91BD9.2020703@saw.net> Gene Buckle wrote: >> Hi Gene, >> What sort of pictures do you want? I'm taking hi-res photos of >> everything. The pictures cover the top external and internal and >> package, but the underside of the boards are hidden at present. >> The boards are silk screened with the signals on top, but the wiring >> is a "rats-nest", literally. >> > The description given tells me it's clearly not the machine I played > with. Thanks for offering though! > >> Othello? I thought it might have enough memory to play NIM, but I'm >> surprised anything like othello was possible. >> >> This machine is packaged in a 22"X14"X8" sloping console cabinet. >> Blue enameled steel on the base and brushed aluminum with red >> silkscreen surrounding the incandescent lamps and tons of switches on >> the top >> >> It has storage(switches) for 16X8 bit instructions, An acc and 16 or >> 32?X8 bit memory registers. > > The NRI machine I'm thinking of had a keyboard mounted in a sloping > metal cabinet and used a TV set as a display. It was fun making it > battle the '64 in Othello. I just can't recall which one did better. :) > > g. > > > This one is a simple computer trainer. Much more than a walnut sided DEC logic trainer, a lot less then ANY micro SBC . The implementation is about 50-60+? SSI/MSI TTL parts spread across eight circuit boards that each implement a functional unit, such as: instruction decoder, ALU, memory, timing , display, switch memory...??? I didn't know NRI built anything other than ham radio trainer kits until I was given this toy in 91. cheers, Jim. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 25 10:59:03 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cassette interface of Panasonic HHC In-Reply-To: <57075.68.121.162.227.1206259198.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <57075.68.121.162.227.1206259198.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <34874.64.62.206.10.1206460743.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Can anyone provide a summary of how to use the cassette interface on > a Panasonic HHC (or Quasar, etc.)? I don't have the relevant manuals. I now have (some of) the relevant manuals. If you have the RL-P1004A printer/cassette interface, the top-level menu item is "PRINTER/CASSETTE", under which item 2 is "CASSETTE LOAD/SAVE", and it's all fairly obvious. I've got one of those now, but at the time I posed the question, the only cassette interface I had was part of the RL-P4003 acoustic modem (vs. the RL-P4001, which doesn't have the cassette interface). However, my RL-P4003 doesn't add any obvious menu items for the cassette. The RL-P4001 and RL-P4003 modems and the RL-P3001 RS-232 interface differ from the other HHC periperhals in that their control ROM is socketed and can be replaced by the user. I think my modem/cassette interface has the wrong ROM in it, and that the correct ROM would have the cassette routines. I'm still looking for an RL-P1002 color plotter (which I think uses the small ALPS mechanism also used in plotters sold by Radio Shack, Atari, and Sharp), an RL-P8001 EPROM programmer, any software other than Microsoft BASIC, SnapBASIC, SnapFORTH, and insurance software, and any technical documentation or software documentation (including docs on MS BASIC, SnapBASIC, and SnapFORTH). Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Mar 25 12:36:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:36:49 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 restoration. In-Reply-To: <47E91BD9.2020703@saw.net> References: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> <47E91BD9.2020703@saw.net> Message-ID: <200803251336.49263.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 25 March 2008 11:35, davis wrote: > This one is a simple computer trainer. Much more than a walnut sided > DEC logic trainer, a lot less then ANY micro SBC . The implementation is > about 50-60+? SSI/MSI TTL parts spread across eight circuit boards that > each implement a functional unit, such as: instruction decoder, ALU, > memory, timing , display, switch memory...??? > > I didn't know NRI built anything other than ham radio trainer kits until > I was given this toy in 91. I had no idea that they'd done anything with computers at all, though I do remember the ads well. What time frame would they have been doing that in? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 25 13:41:53 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:41:53 -0700 Subject: mystery chip 608C62 In-Reply-To: <200803251800.m2PI0MZM040484@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803251800.m2PI0MZM040484@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47E8E501.8710.194429A8@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:23:52 +0000 > From: Julian > I found it on www.datasheets.org.uk - it's listed as an equivalent to a > 6264 static ram, which sounds plausible... Not if it already contains a copy of a BIOS. If you take a closer look, you'll see that the referencing page is merely a search list, not a pointer to equivalents. Had me fooled too. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 25 15:19:31 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:19:31 -0800 Subject: NRI 832 restoration. References: <47E657EC.4070100@saw.net> <47E91BD9.2020703@saw.net> <200803251336.49263.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47E95E53.A9939AA5@cs.ubc.ca> davis wrote: > >> This machine is packaged in a 22"X14"X8" sloping console cabinet. > >> Blue enameled steel on the base and brushed aluminum with red > >> silkscreen surrounding the incandescent lamps and tons of switches on > >> the top > >> > >> It has storage(switches) for 16X8 bit instructions, An acc and 16 or > >> 32?X8 bit memory registers. > This one is a simple computer trainer. Much more than a walnut sided > DEC logic trainer, a lot less then ANY micro SBC . The implementation is > about 50-60+? SSI/MSI TTL parts spread across eight circuit boards that > each implement a functional unit, such as: instruction decoder, ALU, > memory, timing , display, switch memory...??? > > I didn't know NRI built anything other than ham radio trainer kits until > I was given this toy in 91. I well remember it from magazine ads from the early 70s when I was a kid. Never actually saw one, I suspect what you have is pretty rare today. ..Deserves a web page when you have all the info & c. collected about it. "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > I had no idea that they'd done anything with computers at all, though I do > remember the ads well. What time frame would they have been doing that in? ..pulled out a random Pop Electronics (Feb 72) and there's one right inside the front cover, again on page 11 of Radio Electronics Jul 74 (Mark 8 issue), and a slightly changed model on page 8 of Pop Electronics Jan 75 (Altair issue), so there were at least two versions of it. >From the pictures it looks likes it was enough to teach the basics of logic, processor organisation (ALU,PC,IR,MEMORY), and the fetch-increment-execute cycle. I don't think it could have survived for long after microprocs and SBC trainers were introduced. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Mar 25 16:20:07 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:20:07 -0400 Subject: advent sources? Message-ID: <20630.1206480007@mini> trolling through some old mit backups... I found a copy of "advent" fortran source from 1979. Is that interesting to anyone? It looks more complex than the Crowther sources but I have no idea. I also found a file with PDP-6 Space war sources. Anyone interested? It mentions a "340" display. It's an ITS "ar" file which I think would be easy to pull apart back into ascii files. -brad From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 25 16:31:37 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <20630.1206480007@mini> from "Brad Parker" at Mar 25, 2008 05:20:07 PM Message-ID: <200803252131.m2PLVb0K002249@onyx.spiritone.com> > trolling through some old mit backups... > > I found a copy of "advent" fortran source from 1979. Is that interesting > to anyone? It looks more complex than the Crowther sources but I have > no idea. > > I also found a file with PDP-6 Space war sources. Anyone interested? > It mentions a "340" display. It's an ITS "ar" file which I think would > be easy to pull apart back into ascii files. > > -brad Any chance of a copy of DND in there? Especially for RSTS/E or RT-11? I'm aware of what is at http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm Zane From legalize at xmission.com Tue Mar 25 16:48:11 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:48:11 -0600 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:20:07 -0400. <20630.1206480007@mini> Message-ID: In article <20630.1206480007 at mini>, Brad Parker writes: > I also found a file with PDP-6 Space war sources. Anyone interested? Yes! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Mar 25 18:49:37 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:49:37 -0400 Subject: advent sources? Message-ID: <8CA5CEA05148675-ECC-DCB@webmail-nc03.sysops.aol.com> I'd love to find an Advent fortran source that compiles on the PDP-11 under RSTS/E. I've run across about 20 different versions in various places on-line, but haven't been able to get any of them to compile successfully under Fortran-IV or Fortran-77. . . Zane -- When you say "DND", do you mean DND, as in Lamorte/Shvenk's Lair style DND, or do you mean DUNGEO, as in "You are standing in an open field west of a small white house." ? T From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 25 19:28:51 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:28:51 -0400 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <20630.1206480007@mini> References: <20630.1206480007@mini> Message-ID: <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> On Mar 25, 2008, at 5:20 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > trolling through some old mit backups... > > I found a copy of "advent" fortran source from 1979. Is that > interesting > to anyone? It looks more complex than the Crowther sources but I have > no idea. Yes! > I also found a file with PDP-6 Space war sources. Anyone interested? > It mentions a "340" display. It's an ITS "ar" file which I think would > be easy to pull apart back into ascii files. That'd be fun to look at. Can you put this stuff up somewhere? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 25 19:32:48 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:32:48 -0400 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <0JY700KBK7PW6KM9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JY700KBK7PW6KM9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <75361639ed383c692470039794eaa534@neurotica.com> On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:38 PM, Allison wrote: >> Using vtserver is a good option here. Though I'm currently having >> trouble with it with an 11/23 I'm trying to load with RSTS/E, I've had >> good luck with it in the past with RSTS/E and 2.11BSD on an 11/83. I >> think my 11/23's console SLU is somehow flakey and screwing with data >> transfer. > > Slow the data rate. Stay under 4800 as you may be getting buffer > overflows. I'll see about trying that tomorrow. I don't really mind if it takes days to copy (I'm moving a 300+MB image) as long as it's error-free. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Mar 25 19:57:34 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 00:57:34 +0000 Subject: GatorBox software install question Message-ID: <47E99F7E.80907@dunnington.plus.com> A long time ago, I had a couple of GatorBoxes, and I remember that you could run the code memory test to wipe all the settings -- and hence recover from a locked box or lost password. What I can't remember is the procedure to then re-install the Gatorshare software. I seem to recall it needs a Mac. Can anyone remind me? Someone I know has ended up with this problem. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 20:43:17 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:43:17 -0400 Subject: Emailing: mystery chip 608C62.htm Message-ID: <006301c88ee2$c4245e50$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:23:52 +0000 > From: Julian > I found it on www.datasheets.org.uk - it's listed as an equivalent to a > 6264 static ram, which sounds plausible... Not if it already contains a copy of a BIOS. If you take a closer look, you'll see that the referencing page is merely a search list, not a pointer to equivalents. Had me fooled too. Cheers, Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi Chuck! Thanks for the reply. Well, no luck yet but I will try your idea of seeing if my EPROM programmer can identify it. The date code in BIOS indicates about 1994 vintage or so. I am not sure how to read the chips date code though. I will fire up the EPROM programmer and see if it can identify the chip. Maybe we'll get lucky... Thanks! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 20:43:17 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:43:17 -0400 Subject: Emailing: mystery chip 608C62.htm Message-ID: <006701c88ee2$c4c8dbb0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> On Sunday 23 March 2008 18:06, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I found a mystery chip in a pile of stuff. Apparently, it was an AWARD > BIOS in a former life. I can read it in my EPROM programmer and it is read > compatible with a 27C512 (64Kx8 EPROM). The contents are consistent with > an AWARD BIOS for a PC of some sort. > > However, the chip itself is rather unusual. There is no EPROM quartz > window, the manufacturer symbol is a triangle, and the number is unlike > anything I have seen before. Worse yet, I get no helpful hints on GOOGLE > when I try. > > The chip number is 608C62. I am guessing it is either a One Time PROM or a > mask ROM. Has anyone heard of this or know what family it is from? > I found it on www.datasheets.org.uk - it's listed as an equivalent to a 6264 static ram, which sounds plausible... Julian > I am hoping it was a FLASH ROM or EEPROM but I can't seem to find anything > on this chip. Any hints or help much appreciated! > > Andrew Lynch > -----REPLY----- Hi Julian, Thanks for looking and the reply. That is the first place I went after Google looking for a datasheet. The only thing they said though was that I was not the only person who has searched for the device in the past. The chip is some sort of ROM because I can read the contents with my EPROM programmer in 27C512 mode. No luck on what it is though... At least it is not unique but it is starting to look a lot like a Mask ROM to me. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 20:43:17 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:43:17 -0400 Subject: mystery chip 608C62 Message-ID: <006801c88ee2$c53d9680$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> On Sunday 23 March 2008 18:06, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I found a mystery chip in a pile of stuff. Apparently, it was an AWARD > BIOS in a former life. I can read it in my EPROM programmer and it is read > compatible with a 27C512 (64Kx8 EPROM). The contents are consistent with > an AWARD BIOS for a PC of some sort. > > However, the chip itself is rather unusual. There is no EPROM quartz > window, the manufacturer symbol is a triangle, and the number is unlike > anything I have seen before. Worse yet, I get no helpful hints on GOOGLE > when I try. Maybe this'll help: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/logos/semiconductorlogos.html ? A triangle sounds like Matsushita, maybe. > The chip number is 608C62. I am guessing it is either a One Time PROM or a > mask ROM. Has anyone heard of this or know what family it is from? I've not heard of that one before. > I am hoping it was a FLASH ROM or EEPROM but I can't seem to find anything > on this chip. Any hints or help much appreciated! > > Andrew Lynch -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin -----REPLY----- Hi Roy, Thanks for the reply. I reviewed your page of chip logos and the Hundai/Hynix triangle seems the closest but even then not exact. The logo is a perfect equilateral triangle outline. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 25 22:57:26 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:57:26 -0700 Subject: mystery chip 608C62 In-Reply-To: <47E8E501.8710.194429A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803251800.m2PI0MZM040484@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47E8E501.8710.194429A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> > > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:23:52 +0000> > From: Julian > > > I found it on www.datasheets.org.uk - it's listed as an equivalent to a> > 6264 static ram, which sounds plausible...> > Not if it already contains a copy of a BIOS. If you take a closer > look, you'll see that the referencing page is merely a search list, > not a pointer to equivalents.> > Had me fooled too.> Hi It may have been a typo and they really meant 6364, that I think is a ROM. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ How well do you know your celebrity gossip? http://originals.msn.com/thebigdebate?ocid=T002MSN03N0707A From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 25 23:53:38 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:53:38 -0500 Subject: mystery chip 608C62 In-Reply-To: References: <200803251800.m2PI0MZM040484@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47E8E501.8710.194429A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: come on stop it guys its a standard 24, 28 pin thing everybody made these ROMS, we did not have otp and the cheap no window package untill - 87 I think. reading it out is the mystery and the fun inside Randy > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:57:26 -0700 > Subject: RE: mystery chip 608C62 > > > > From: cclist at sydex.com> > > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:23:52 +0000> > From: Julian > > > I found it on www.datasheets.org.uk - it's listed as an equivalent to a> > 6264 static ram, which sounds plausible...> > Not if it already contains a copy of a BIOS. If you take a closer > look, you'll see that the referencing page is merely a search list, > not a pointer to equivalents.> > Had me fooled too.> Hi > It may have been a typo and they really meant 6364, that I think is > a ROM. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > How well do you know your celebrity gossip? > http://originals.msn.com/thebigdebate?ocid=T002MSN03N0707A _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From pichotjm at free.fr Tue Mar 25 08:43:40 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:43:40 +0100 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) Message-ID: <014a01c88e7e$3cbcd190$2601a8c0@JM3800> |pichotjm wrote: | |> Hi, Be carefull! fr.comp.ordinosaures is in french. | |And this is somehow dangerous for my health :-) | |> The best way for you, |> would be to subscribe to the news server Astraweb.com. You will have |> to pay | |Actually an unrelated google search showed up "ordinosaure" on |the French wikipedia and the very next link was google groups |(or dejanews as I still like to think of it). | |56000 messages ... I may be some time ... | |Antonio [back to home] Hi, 'Ordinosaure' is a beautiful new word composed with 'Ordinateur' (computer) and Dinosaure. We could translate it by 'computosaure'. It has about the same definition as in this group: older than 10 years. (I would prefer more than 20 or 30 years, to minimise the use of the word...) In 56000 messages, you will find a lot without interest! If you need some french url, i can make a copy of my book-mark. JMP From pichotjm at free.fr Tue Mar 25 09:30:32 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:30:32 +0100 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) Message-ID: <014e01c88e84$c828bf40$2601a8c0@JM3800> Hi,[back to home]> It is difficult for me to give a precise date. I don't have any > manufacturing notes/schematics about this machine. Published > computer lists > indicate 1965. But they don't know my work. It seems that the > machine began > a military career, before a commercial one. (My machine has a military > color, and a customs seal)And I think that the 1965 date is only for > commercial use (not reserved to military).Date codes on PCBs range > from 1962 > to 1964. It's why I think 1964. But the machine was used for > manufacturing > problems debugging / ECN. 1964 may be the date of the last ECN... > So the > date is between 1962 and 1965. | Thank. I presume ECN means PCB = Printed Circuit Board. ECN: Engineering change notice. Indicates revision of PCB. > |It is tiny compared with my Germanium machine > (ICT 1301) which weighs > |five tons. It has the same clock speed but is quite a bit slower, so > |I guess it is earlier than mine. But maybe the emphasis of the design > |was miniaturisation and the designers traded speed for size. > | | I should have made it clear that it is the 1301 which is the faster | of the two. For example a 48 bit decimal (i.e. 12 digits) add to / | subtract from a register takes 21 microseconds. The ODP-505 is a pure binary machine, not designed for arithmetics, statistical purposes or BCD computations.It is a real time (!!!) computer. Get some datas (voltages, frequencies, switch states, motor speed, temperature...) compare to thresholds or values, and speed up / slow down motor, or move a cadmium bar (?) in a nuclear reactor...> What is the manufacturing date of your ICT 1301? | Actually I have two. Serial number 6 was the first one to be sold and | was installed in 1962 and it is this one which is assembled and | works, though not all the peripherals are functional. Serial number | 75 I would guess was made in 1963. I have a few parts of serial | number 155, which I would think would be from 1965 when the machines | were largely replaced by the ICT 1900 series. Designing of the | machines was started in the late 1950s, and many of the engineering | drawings have initial revisions from that period. | The architecture of your machine reminds me of the first machine I | was allowed to operate. It was an 18 bit binary machine, it had 8k of | memory built in, expandable with external modules and was made by the | Airborne Computing Division (ACD) of Elliotts, it was an Elliott 920B | and was a compact, flyable version of the commercial Elliott 903. | There had been an earlier model 920A which I think would have been | Germanium and was roughly the size and shape of a carpenters work | bench. This may have been contemporary with your earlier machine I | think. Unfortunately I never saw one in the flesh, but there was a | bench in the computer room which I found out later, was the empty | chassis of a 920A. Behind the bench was a large panel full of | electrical 'chocolate strip' connectors where the analogue and | digital input and output signals of the 920A could be connected up. | Apparently some of the analogue outputs had been connected up to an | oscilloscope to provide a visual display unit, though it used a fair | bit of processor time to keep it refreshed, even with the long | persistence phosphor of an oscilloscope. The panel had been covered | with board with pegs to hold mylar paper tapes and until the day it | was scrapped I had not seen what was behind it. Very interesting!There are some video connector in the earlier machine and the Serel companywas specialized in high tech video solutions. I have read somewhere in docs, thatthis computer have a screen output...I have found, last week a small notice describing microprogramming on ODP-505.http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/ODP505/MicroProgrammation/MicroProgrammation.html(doc found in photomultiplier doc!)I have found commercial document describing displays and analog memories...I don't know the date... (1970?) I have to study these documents... > I have a > earlier machine from the same company SEREL, named OA-1001. Built in > 1959/1960.I need to restore it. It lays on the floor (horizontal > position)... The blue one > here:http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Photos/Photos.htmlI will start > restoring > next month (with the Sun!) | What is involved in the restoration? Do you intend to make it work, | this would be very hard without the schematics.As you know, i am alone, here. I want to make an esthetic restoration:Photos and notes, dismantle, photos and notes, wash, dry, fix the rust, protect with Rustol, photos an reassemble. I hope to be capable to do that... may be one year, may be two... May be some reverse engineering to get 2 or 3 schematics. (need one week for a board! I have 2 boards in process...)JM Pichot From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Mar 26 06:23:41 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:23:41 -0400 Subject: GatorBox software install question In-Reply-To: <47E99F7E.80907@dunnington.plus.com> References: <47E99F7E.80907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <31321.1206530621@mini> Pete Turnbull wrote: >A long time ago, I had a couple of GatorBoxes, and I remember that you >could run the code memory test to wipe all the settings -- and hence >recover from a locked box or lost password. > >What I can't remember is the procedure to then re-install the Gatorshare >software. I seem to recall it needs a Mac. Can anyone remind me? >Someone I know has ended up with this problem. mmm. many moons have passed since I wrote *that* software :-) As I recall (dimly) you need to run GatorKeeper on a mac. If this is a CS (which I assume it is - the plastic tower), it should have a boot rom which will come up even if no code is in flash and register itself (via NBP) on the localtalk network. GatorKeeper will "find" it and then you should be able to download the software and setup a new config. The software is on the web somewhere. I don't think you can do it via tftp, however. You could on later products, but not on the CS. (I remember doing the prom for the "big orange box" and it would load code via bootp/tftp or via ethertalk phase 1 but I never got to revise the CS prom) -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 26 06:59:15 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:59:15 -0500 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <75361639ed383c692470039794eaa534@neurotica.com> References: <0JY700KBK7PW6KM9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <75361639ed383c692470039794eaa534@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <47EA3A93.8040908@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:38 PM, Allison wrote: >>> Using vtserver is a good option here. Though I'm currently having >>> trouble with it with an 11/23 I'm trying to load with RSTS/E, I've had >>> good luck with it in the past with RSTS/E and 2.11BSD on an 11/83. I >>> think my 11/23's console SLU is somehow flakey and screwing with data >>> transfer. >> >> Slow the data rate. Stay under 4800 as you may be getting buffer >> overflows. > > I'll see about trying that tomorrow. I don't really mind if it takes > days to copy (I'm moving a 300+MB image) as long as it's error-free. That won't fly. VTserver v2.x has a 32MB file-size limit. :( Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 26 09:39:41 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:39:41 -0400 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <47EA3A93.8040908@mdrconsult.com> References: <0JY700KBK7PW6KM9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <75361639ed383c692470039794eaa534@neurotica.com> <47EA3A93.8040908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <257465A2-3BCD-4333-9405-55823B3F8677@neurotica.com> On Mar 26, 2008, at 7:59 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>>> Using vtserver is a good option here. Though I'm currently >>>> having >>>> trouble with it with an 11/23 I'm trying to load with RSTS/E, >>>> I've had >>>> good luck with it in the past with RSTS/E and 2.11BSD on an >>>> 11/83. I >>>> think my 11/23's console SLU is somehow flakey and screwing with >>>> data >>>> transfer. >>> >>> Slow the data rate. Stay under 4800 as you may be getting buffer >>> overflows. >> I'll see about trying that tomorrow. I don't really mind if it >> takes days to copy (I'm moving a 300+MB image) as long as it's >> error-free. > > That won't fly. VTserver v2.x has a 32MB file-size limit. :( Whoa, are you sure? I'm quite certain that I used vtserver to transfer a full-sized RD54 image to an 11/83 a few years ago. My memory generally sucks; I may have done something else for that image, but I know I've moved *some* images to that 11/83 using vtserver. Well I guess I'll have to go to Plan B, which is somehow recreating the RSTS/E install tapes (from .tap files) and getting a tape drive working on the new system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 26 11:33:54 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:33:54 -0500 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <257465A2-3BCD-4333-9405-55823B3F8677@neurotica.com> References: <0JY700KBK7PW6KM9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <75361639ed383c692470039794eaa534@neurotica.com> <47EA3A93.8040908@mdrconsult.com> <257465A2-3BCD-4333-9405-55823B3F8677@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <47EA7AF2.7040304@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 26, 2008, at 7:59 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>>>> Using vtserver is a good option here. Though I'm currently having >>>>> trouble with it with an 11/23 I'm trying to load with RSTS/E, I've had >>>>> good luck with it in the past with RSTS/E and 2.11BSD on an 11/83. I >>>>> think my 11/23's console SLU is somehow flakey and screwing with data >>>>> transfer. >>>> >>>> Slow the data rate. Stay under 4800 as you may be getting buffer >>>> overflows. >>> I'll see about trying that tomorrow. I don't really mind if it >>> takes days to copy (I'm moving a 300+MB image) as long as it's >>> error-free. >> >> That won't fly. VTserver v2.x has a 32MB file-size limit. :( > > Whoa, are you sure? I'm quite certain that I used vtserver to > transfer a full-sized RD54 image to an 11/83 a few years ago. That's what Fred van Kempen, who was maintaining VTserver at the time, told me. It came up because I had been trying to build a 2.11BSD tape. At the time, the TU80 was the only 9-track drive I had, so I was doing it via vtserver. > My memory generally sucks; I may have done something else for that > image, but I know I've moved *some* images to that 11/83 using vtserver. I can relate to the wetware issues. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 26 13:04:08 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator In-Reply-To: <47EA7AF2.7040304@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Mar 26, 2008 11:33:54 AM Message-ID: <200803261804.m2QI48Ba010308@onyx.spiritone.com> > >> That won't fly. VTserver v2.x has a 32MB file-size limit. :( > > > > Whoa, are you sure? I'm quite certain that I used vtserver to > > transfer a full-sized RD54 image to an 11/83 a few years ago. > > That's what Fred van Kempen, who was maintaining VTserver at the > time, told me. It came up because I had been trying to build a 2.11BSD > tape. At the time, the TU80 was the only 9-track drive I had, so I was > doing it via vtserver. > > > My memory generally sucks; I may have done something else for that > > image, but I know I've moved *some* images to that 11/83 using vtserver. > > I can relate to the wetware issues. My memory is even worse, especially as I use other methods than vtserver. I'm pretty sure that this was a limitation a few years ago, but I think it might have been removed. My favorite way to do this is with a VAX, or CD-ROM (obviously this requires the PDP-11 to have a SCSI Adapter). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 26 13:26:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:26:26 -0700 Subject: mystery chip 608C62 In-Reply-To: <200803261800.m2QI06lK055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803261800.m2QI06lK055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47EA32E2.32457.70B783@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:53:38 -0500 > From: Randy Dawson > come on stop it guys > its a standard 24, 28 pin thing > everybody made these ROMS, we did not have otp and the cheap no window > package untill - 87 I think. reading it out is the mystery and the fun > inside Well, it's this comment from Andrew: > The date code in BIOS indicates about 1994 vintage or so... that makes me think it's probably flash/EEPROM. By 1994, almost nobody was putting BIOS code in ROMs for PeeCees. Maybe you know of someone, but I'm drawing a blank. And it might be an OTP also. Regardless, given the capacity, if it's a user-programmable ROM of any sort, there's bound to be manufacturer's information. Now, had Andrew said "1984", then I'd say you had a point; but even then, the size (512Kbit) would have been very unusual. Hey Andrew, if you can read the BIOS out, get the Award version number information too--the host system can often be identified from it, as there's a vendor ID in it. Cheers, Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 26 14:12:02 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:12:02 -0500 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EA32E2.32457.70B783@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803261800.m2QI06lK055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EA32E2.32457.70B783@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: This 680C62 thread reminded me of a clever thing Compaq put in their BIOS, the string "None of this code is copyright IBM" IBM's software would not run on a machine that did not have "copyright IBM" in the BIOS. hahaha their workaround made them the most compatible clone. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Test your Star IQ http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Mar 26 14:04:38 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macintosh IIfx: Seeking to acquire Message-ID: I'm seeking to acquire a functional Mac IIfx for a project. Does anyone have one they'd like to sell? If so, please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 26 17:34:11 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: References: <200803261800.m2QI06lK055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EA32E2.32457.70B783@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <34431.64.62.206.10.1206570851.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Randy wrote: > This 680C62 thread reminded me of a clever thing Compaq put in their BIOS, > the string "None of this code is copyright IBM" > IBM's software would not run on a machine that did not have "copyright > IBM" in the BIOS. The Vectrex home game console, developed my GCE and later sold by Milton Bradley, would not run a cartridge that didn't contain at a fixed offset near the beginning the string [copyright symbol]GCE 19xx. It became standard practice to fill in the xx with 00, to produce an obviously invalid copyright message that would nevertheless convince the Vectrex to run the code. In a legal battle (possibly Sega v. Accolade?), a court ruled that if the manufacturer built into a product a mechanism that looked for a specific data pattern to enable functionality, that the data pattern could not benefit from copyright because it is purely functional rather than being any form of protected expression. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 26 17:50:09 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft BASIC for the HHC: error in images and possibly in EPROMs Message-ID: <36318.64.62.206.10.1206571809.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> A few years back Roger Merchberger was kind enough to make available copies of the Microsoft BASIC "capsule" for the Matsushita/Panasonic/Quasar HHC. I haven't checked any of his actual MCM68764 EPROMs, but I found an error in the binary image he provided. The last byte of the EPROM, at offset 0x1fff, is 0xff, but should be 0xc8, an INY instruction. The HHC inverts address line A12 to the ROMs, so the two halves of the EPROM are logically swapped. The EPROM resides in the HHC address map at 0x4000..0x5fff, so the incorrect byte is at address 0x4fff. If you look at the source code for Microsoft 6502 BASIC (which few people have), this byte is the first of three INY instructions generated by a REPEAT directive shortly after the label STOMLT: STOMLT: STX CURTOL LDA COUNT REPEAT 3, STADY LOWTR ;SAVE NUMBER OF DIMENSIONS. LOPPTA: LDXI 11 ;DEFAULT SIZE. This is the (corrected) disassembled code: 4ffb 86 f1 stomlt: STX curtol 4ffd a5 44 LDA count 4fff c8 INY 5000 c8 INY 5001 c8 INY 5002 91 ee STA (lowtr),Y This is part of the array indexing code. The incorrect byte 0xff is an invalid opcode, so it probably will result in array indexing being done wrong, and could cause memory corruption. I found this error only because I was able to compare a disassembly of the image to the Microsoft source code. It's remotely possible that there could be other errors in the image. I now have an original Microsoft BASIC ROM for the HHC, so I'll try to verify the image against it. The ROM image ends with some credits (presumably for the HHC port): 001ff0 4e 45 49 4c 20 4b 20 26 20 48 45 4e 52 59 20 4c >NEIL K & HENRY L< "Neil K" is almost certainly Neil Konzen. Does anyone know who "Henry L" is? Eric From evan at snarc.net Wed Mar 26 17:59:23 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:59:23 -0400 Subject: Microsoft BASIC for the HHC: error in images and possibly in EPROMs In-Reply-To: <36318.64.62.206.10.1206571809.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <019d01c88f95$09ad4ab0$f750f945@evan> >>> "Neil K" is almost certainly Neil Konzen. Does anyone know who "Henry L" is? I do! It's almost certainly Henry Laxen. Henry is a FORTH expert who worked at Friends Amis in the early 1980s, before the HHC project became part of Matsushita. I interviewed Henry last summer for the book I'm writing. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Mar 26 18:13:07 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:13:07 +0000 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <200803261800.m2QI06lS055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803261800.m2QI06lS055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <93878A3E-2997-4BFF-A96D-A962F9DF0C42@microspot.co.uk> > > 'Ordinosaure' is a beautiful new word composed with > 'Ordinateur' (computer) > and Dinosaure. > We could translate it by 'computosaure'. I don't think we need the final 'e', alternatively how about dinoputer or jurassiputer? > It has about the same definition as in this group: older than 10 > years. (I > would prefer more than 20 or 30 years, to minimise the use of the > word...) > In 56000 messages, you will find a lot without interest! Well, to be fair, the same thing applies to cctalk. We all have our own interests and specialities within the broad range of machines and years of the 'computer age' and we have little interest in other models and periods. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Mar 26 18:42:06 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:42:06 -0400 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> References: <20630.1206480007@mini> <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <12368.1206574926@mini> Dave McGuire wrote: > > That'd be fun to look at. Can you put this stuff up somewhere? http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/ADVENT_DATA_13-01-1979.txt http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/ADVENT_F_13-01-1979.txt http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/AR_SPCWAR_16-07-1977.txt The "AR_SPCWAR" file is an ITS "archive device" file. Think 'tar' style composite. It's a bunch of files glued together. The other files seem to be reasonably intact. I found them on accident... :-) -brad From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 18:50:25 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:50:25 -0400 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <93878A3E-2997-4BFF-A96D-A962F9DF0C42@microspot.co.uk> References: <200803261800.m2QI06lS055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> <93878A3E-2997-4BFF-A96D-A962F9DF0C42@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <47EAE141.5040508@gmail.com> Roger Holmes wrote: >> 'Ordinosaure' is a beautiful new word composed with 'Ordinateur' >> (computer) >> and Dinosaure. >> We could translate it by 'computosaure'. > > I don't think we need the final 'e', alternatively how about dinoputer > or jurassiputer? We do if we're speaking French. Peace... Sridhar From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Mar 26 19:29:55 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:29:55 +0000 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <200803261800.m2QI06lS055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803261800.m2QI06lS055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: "pichotjm" > > ECN: Engineering change notice. Indicates revision of PCB. Thanks, I did not realise you had already translated it to English. > > The ODP-505 is a pure binary machine, not designed for arithmetics, > statistical purposes or BCD computations.It is a real time (!!!) > computer. > Get some datas (voltages, frequencies, switch states, motor speed, > temperature...) compare to thresholds or values, and speed up / > slow down > motor, or move a cadmium bar (?) in a nuclear reactor... I see. The Elliott machines were the same (but not the ICT1301), keeping the gun of a tank level and aimed in the right direction, accepting data from gyros and inertial sensors and tracking the position and orientation of an aircraft or ship, cross checking with compasses and other navigational systems, analysing sonar data and tracking enemy submarines etc. By the time of the 920ATC we even used a special real time programming language called Coral66, based on Algol60 syntax but with cut down semantics to give highly efficient run times. Before that everything was done in assembler (called S.I.R.) or machine code. >> | The architecture of your machine reminds me of the first machine I >> | was allowed to operate. It was an 18 bit binary machine, it had >> 8k of >> | memory built in, expandable with external modules and was made >> by the >> | Airborne Computing Division (ACD) of Elliotts, it was an Elliott >> 920B >> | and was a compact, flyable version of the commercial Elliott 903. >> | There had been an earlier model 920A which I think would have been >> | Germanium and was roughly the size and shape of a carpenters work >> | bench. This may have been contemporary with your earlier machine I >> | think. Unfortunately I never saw one in the flesh, but there was a >> | bench in the computer room which I found out later, was the empty >> | chassis of a 920A. Behind the bench was a large panel full of >> | electrical 'chocolate strip' connectors where the analogue and >> | digital input and output signals of the 920A could be connected up. >> | Apparently some of the analogue outputs had been connected up to an >> | oscilloscope to provide a visual display unit, though it used a >> fair >> | bit of processor time to keep it refreshed, even with the long >> | persistence phosphor of an oscilloscope. The panel had been covered >> | with board with pegs to hold mylar paper tapes and until the day it >> | was scrapped I had not seen what was behind it. > Very interesting!There are some video connector in the earlier > machine and > the Serel companywas specialized in high tech video solutions. Possible application for computers in video back then were superimposing images and standards conversion and just possibly titling and graphics. > I have read > somewhere in docs, thatthis computer have a screen output... If it has two or preferably three digital to analogue converters then a vector display is fairly easy, but maybe it was more complex than that, and you only need one digital to analogue converter for a raster display, provided you have enough CPU power to both drive the display in real time and do any processing required as well. I should explain what I said about two or three A/D converter, you have one to drive the X plate and one for the Y, ideally one for the brightness (Z), but with a fast enough converter, you can deflect the beam so fast so it will not mark the screen significantly and so no need to turn the beam off before moving to the next item to be displayed. > I have found, > last week a small notice describing microprogramming on > ODP-505.http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/ODP505/MicroProgrammation/ > MicroProgrammation.html(doc > found in photomultiplier doc!)I have found commercial document > describing > displays and analog memories...I don't know the date... (1970?) I > have to > study these documents... I had a look but my understanding of French is terrible, and technical details in French are even more difficult. >> I have a >> earlier machine from the same company SEREL, named OA-1001. Built in >> 1959/1960.I need to restore it. It lays on the floor (horizontal >> position)... The blue one >> here:http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Photos/Photos.htmlI will start >> restoring >> next month (with the Sun!) > > | What is involved in the restoration? Do you intend to make it work, > | this would be very hard without the schematics. > As you know, i am alone, > here. I want to make an esthetic restoration:Photos and notes, > dismantle, > photos and notes, wash, dry, fix the rust, protect with Rustol, > photos an > reassemble. I hope to be capable to do that... may be one year, may be > two... As I understand it, that is what the big museums call preservation. There has been a lot of discussion of the relative merits of preservation and restoration. Restoration is what they call it when we return a computer to running condition, preferably so it can be demonstrated. There is some truth that restoring a computer always destroys some of the original and that preservation is, to the purist, a better thing to do. As I have two 1301s, I have the luxury of being able to restore one and preserve the other, but restoration is a lot more enjoyable to me. The other thing of course is simulation. This can be done at various levels, simple simulation of the instruction set, more complex simulation at gate level and in theory the ultimate would be to have a 3D model of the computer you could walk around and inspect the inside of, and attach a virtual oscilloscope to and watch the analogue signal levels and be able to do hardware patches and have simulated hardware faults and diagnose and repair them whilst the lights and switches all worked like the real thing and the sounds and 3D models of the peripherals would also be like the real thing. Maybe I'd leave out the sound of a card deck being mangled and thrown into the air by the card reader though. > > May be some reverse engineering to get 2 or 3 schematics. (need one > week for > a board! I have 2 boards in process...)JM Pichot Good, are you able to identify the function of each type of board (such as 'And' gate, Flip-Flop etc) If not I could perhaps compare with my 1301 schematics and see if they have any similarities. How difficult is it to identify the power supply connections? Are you planning on doing schematics for the board interconnections? I imagine this would be very difficult, so probably best not to try. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Mar 26 20:35:34 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:35:34 -0500 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <12368.1206574926@mini> References: <20630.1206480007@mini> <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> <12368.1206574926@mini> Message-ID: <47EAF9E6.9010208@compsys.to> >Brad Parker wrote: >Dave McGuire wrote: > >>That'd be fun to look at. Can you put this stuff up somewhere? >> >http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/ADVENT_DATA_13-01-1979.txt >http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/ADVENT_F_13-01-1979.txt >http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/AR_SPCWAR_16-07-1977.txt > >The "AR_SPCWAR" file is an ITS "archive device" file. Think 'tar' style >composite. It's a bunch of files glued together. > >The other files seem to be reasonably intact. > >I found them on accident... :-) > >-brad > > Jerome Fine replies: Does anyone know of FORTRAN IV source files for Super Star Trek (SST) which are available at: http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rt11/games/ I have found a basic version and some FORTRAN IV source files which seem to be close, but I have not been able to find the exact sources. The SST.DOC file does provide some references that may help. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Mar 26 21:25:33 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:25:33 -0400 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <47EAF9E6.9010208@compsys.to> References: <20630.1206480007@mini> <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> <12368.1206574926@mini> <47EAF9E6.9010208@compsys.to> Message-ID: Would you be interested in Trek7 from 1976 (In fortran) ? ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:35:34 -0500 > From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to > To: > Subject: Re: advent sources? > > >Brad Parker wrote: > >>Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>That'd be fun to look at. Can you put this stuff up somewhere? >>> >>http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/ADVENT_DATA_13-01-1979.txt >>http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/ADVENT_F_13-01-1979.txt >>http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/AR_SPCWAR_16-07-1977.txt >> >>The "AR_SPCWAR" file is an ITS "archive device" file. Think 'tar' style >>composite. It's a bunch of files glued together. >> >>The other files seem to be reasonably intact. >> >>I found them on accident... :-) >> >>-brad >> >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > Does anyone know of FORTRAN IV source files for Super Star Trek (SST) > which are available at: > http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rt11/games/ > I have found a basic version and some FORTRAN IV source files which > seem to be close, but I have not been able to find the exact sources. > The SST.DOC file does provide some references that may help. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > _________________________________________________________________ Sympatico/MSN Autos wants to put YOU in a 2008 Eclipse! Click here to enter! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/212 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 26 21:30:01 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:30:01 -0600 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: References: <20630.1206480007@mini> <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> <12368.1206574926@mini> <47EAF9E6.9010208@compsys.to> Message-ID: <47EB06A9.3060200@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Would you be interested in Trek7 from 1976 (In fortran) ? What machine was it ment for? I remember stealing some time on a IBM-1130 to play Star Trek but I can't remember if was in basic or fortran? From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Mar 26 22:18:12 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:18:12 -0400 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <47EB06A9.3060200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20630.1206480007@mini> <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> <12368.1206574926@mini> <47EAF9E6.9010208@compsys.to> <47EB06A9.3060200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Trek7 was written in Fortran IV/Fortran 77, originally on a pdp-11, but the code I have is for the vax. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:30:01 -0600 > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > To: > Subject: Re: advent sources? > > Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> Would you be interested in Trek7 from 1976 (In fortran) ? > What machine was it ment for? > I remember stealing some time on a IBM-1130 to play Star Trek > but I can't remember if was in basic or fortran? > > > _________________________________________________________________ This Valentine's Day, get creative and show your sweetheart how much you care with flair! Find fun date ideas here! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/224 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 26 23:00:48 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:00:48 -0600 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:42:06 -0400. <12368.1206574926@mini> Message-ID: In article <12368.1206574926 at mini>, Brad Parker writes: > http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/mit/AR_SPCWAR_16-07-1977.txt This file says: ;---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUBTTL History of Space War ;WAR -> SWAR -> SUPER -> STAR -> SPACE -> SPACE4 -> NSPACE -> SPCWAR ;Present maintainers of Space-War are ; KLH at MIT-AI, GMP at MIT-MC, and CBF at MIT-ML ; The history of the game will be added here as it is determined. ; On the ninth of April 1976, the new nine-bit Space-War consoles were completed. ;The consoles were designed and constructed by Kevin Hunter (KH). Ken ;Harrenstein (KLH) and Lee Parks (LSP) spent ten hours wiring the new consoles ;into the PDP-6 alternate data switches bank. ;---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Mar 26 23:02:03 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:02:03 -0600 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:18:12 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dan Gahlinger writes: > Trek7 was written in Fortran IV/Fortran 77, originally on a pdp-11, but the c ode I have is for the vax. I'd like to see that too! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 27 00:46:06 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:46:06 -0700 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <47EB06A9.3060200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20630.1206480007@mini> <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> <12368.1206574926@mini> <47EAF9E6.9010208@compsys.to> <47EB06A9.3060200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 8:30 PM -0600 3/26/08, woodelf wrote: >Dan Gahlinger wrote: >>Would you be interested in Trek7 from 1976 (In fortran) ? >What machine was it ment for? >I remember stealing some time on a IBM-1130 to play Star Trek >but I can't remember if was in basic or fortran? I'm still looking for a version of Star Trek that I played on a Harris Minicomputer. Rather than playing on a 10x10 grid, you simply told it which direction you wanted to go in relation to the enemy ship. It was very basic, but I still thought it was pretty cool. I know the description is horrid, but it has been about 20 years since I played it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Mar 26 08:20:59 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:20:59 -0000 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF0A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hello All As I said before my PDP-8/e partly failed insofar as it would not load data into memory. I rewound my personal memory back thirty plus years and did a lot of relearning about how pre microprocessor systems worked. Toggling the Add Load switch puts the address on the bus and triggers the time state generator to cycle. In the correct time slot the address is set in the memory ready for the data. Setting the Switch Register with the data and toggling the DEP key should write data from the SR to the pre set memory location via the bus in another time slot. The time states are generated by a string of SN74194 shift registers and the slot for the data is not being decoded. It looks like the '194 is at fault. Now I need either a couple of 74194's or an M8330 board. Rod Smallwood TheDECcollector From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Mar 26 09:26:25 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:26:25 -0400 Subject: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator Message-ID: <0JYC00JPPDB3UW53@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Loading an OS onto a real PDP-11 - not an emulator > From: Doc Shipley > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:59:15 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:38 PM, Allison wrote: >>>> Using vtserver is a good option here. Though I'm currently having >>>> trouble with it with an 11/23 I'm trying to load with RSTS/E, I've had >>>> good luck with it in the past with RSTS/E and 2.11BSD on an 11/83. I >>>> think my 11/23's console SLU is somehow flakey and screwing with data >>>> transfer. I didn't write ^^^^. I wrote vvvv. >>> Slow the data rate. Stay under 4800 as you may be getting buffer >>> overflows. Someone else wrote vvvv. >> I'll see about trying that tomorrow. I don't really mind if it takes >> days to copy (I'm moving a 300+MB image) as long as it's error-free. > > That won't fly. VTserver v2.x has a 32MB file-size limit. :( Use Vtserver to install an OS and use that to do the heavy lifting... HOWEVER: RT11 has a 32mb limit (per file device) as well so use an OS that can handle that size files. Maybe UnixV6 is a possible choice. Allison > > Doc From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Mar 26 21:21:04 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:21:04 +0100 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <34431.64.62.206.10.1206570851.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200803261800.m2QI06lK055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EA32E2.32457.70B783@cclist.sydex.com> <34431.64.62.206.10.1206570851.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <47EB0490.2040308@acc.umu.se> My number one favourite string among the Vectrex cassettes is "This space available, what the heck are you looking at?" I don't remember which cassette it was. I had one of these games and we plugged it into a 6809 development system and had a lot of fun, modifying the code. :-) I still have the Vectrex and it is running fine. G?ran Eric Smith wrote: > Randy wrote: > >> This 680C62 thread reminded me of a clever thing Compaq put in their BIOS, >> the string "None of this code is copyright IBM" >> IBM's software would not run on a machine that did not have "copyright >> IBM" in the BIOS. >> > > The Vectrex home game console, developed my GCE and later sold by Milton > Bradley, would not run a cartridge that didn't contain at a fixed offset > near the beginning the string [copyright symbol]GCE 19xx. It became > standard practice to fill in the xx with 00, to produce an obviously > invalid copyright message that would nevertheless convince the Vectrex > to run the code. > > In a legal battle (possibly Sega v. Accolade?), a court ruled that > if the manufacturer built into a product a mechanism that looked for > a specific data pattern to enable functionality, that the data pattern > could not benefit from copyright because it is purely functional rather > than being any form of protected expression. > > Eric > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 27 09:00:53 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 07:00:53 -0700 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF0A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF0A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:20:59 +0000 > From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's > > Hello All > > As I said before my PDP-8/e partly failed insofar as it would > not load data into memory. > I rewound my personal memory back thirty plus years and did a lot of > relearning about how pre microprocessor systems worked. > Toggling the Add Load switch puts the address on the bus and triggers > the time state generator to cycle. > In the correct time slot the address is set in the memory ready for the > data. > Setting the Switch Register with the data and toggling the DEP key > should write data from the SR to the pre set memory location via the bus > in another time slot. > The time states are generated by a string of SN74194 shift registers and > the slot for the data is not being decoded. It looks like the '194 is at > fault. > Now I need either a couple of 74194's or an M8330 board. > > Rod Smallwood > > TheDECcollector > Hi A quick search on the web shows that both Anchor Electronics and Jameco carry 74194's. I'd expect others carry them as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 27 10:43:32 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:43:32 -0700 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <47EB63D8.5070503@softjar.se> References: <200803261800.m2QI06lU055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB63D8.5070503@softjar.se> Message-ID: At 10:07 AM +0100 3/27/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" skrev: >>Any chance of a copy of DND in there? Especially for RSTS/E or RT-11? I'm >>aware of what is at http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm > >I have atleast ADVENT compiled and running under RSX. Should work >fine under RSTS/E as well. > >Just check on MIM::SYS$GAMES: The VAX/VMS version of DND can be found at PDXVAX::GAMES: One of these days I'll get a few more games on there. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 27 11:03:33 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:03:33 -0600 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF0A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF0A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <47EBC555.5040307@jetnet.ab.ca> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hello All > > As I said before my PDP-8/e partly failed insofar as it would > not load data into memory. > I rewound my personal memory back thirty plus years and did a lot of > relearning about how pre microprocessor systems worked. > Toggling the Add Load switch puts the address on the bus and triggers > the time state generator to cycle. > In the correct time slot the address is set in the memory ready for the > data. > Setting the Switch Register with the data and toggling the DEP key > should write data from the SR to the pre set memory location via the bus > in another time slot. > The time states are generated by a string of SN74194 shift registers and > the slot for the data is not being decoded. It looks like the '194 is at > fault. > Now I need either a couple of 74194's or an M8330 board. TTL can be found here: http://www.unicornelectronics.com/prod.htm > Rod Smallwood > > TheDECcollector From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Mar 27 11:36:27 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:36:27 -0400 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: References: <20630.1206480007@mini> <571504e90f4a04e772ea99c6da8fd02b@neurotica.com> <12368.1206574926@mini> <47EAF9E6.9010208@compsys.to> <47EB06A9.3060200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: here's a repository for trek7 anyhow: http://trek7.sourceforge.net/ yes, it's my project :( > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:46:06 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Re: advent sources? > > At 8:30 PM -0600 3/26/08, woodelf wrote: > >Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >>Would you be interested in Trek7 from 1976 (In fortran) ? > >What machine was it ment for? > >I remember stealing some time on a IBM-1130 to play Star Trek > >but I can't remember if was in basic or fortran? > > I'm still looking for a version of Star Trek that I played on a > Harris Minicomputer. Rather than playing on a 10x10 grid, you simply > told it which direction you wanted to go in relation to the enemy > ship. It was very basic, but I still thought it was pretty cool. I > know the description is horrid, but it has been about 20 years since > I played it. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | _________________________________________________________________ Sympatico/MSN Autos wants to put YOU in a 2008 Eclipse! Click here to enter! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/212 From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Mar 27 11:39:28 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:39:28 -0400 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: References: <200803261800.m2QI06lU055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB63D8.5070503@softjar.se> Message-ID: How do you read those references? ie: MIM::SYS$GAMES: or PDXVAX::GAMES: ? can I access this from my regular PC somehow? or how will my vax access this? > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:43:32 -0700 > To: bqt at softjar.se; cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > CC: > Subject: Re: advent sources? > > At 10:07 AM +0100 3/27/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >"Zane H. Healy" skrev: > > >>Any chance of a copy of DND in there? Especially for RSTS/E or RT-11? I'm > >>aware of what is at http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm > > > >I have atleast ADVENT compiled and running under RSX. Should work > >fine under RSTS/E as well. > > > >Just check on MIM::SYS$GAMES: > > The VAX/VMS version of DND can be found at PDXVAX::GAMES: > > One of these days I'll get a few more games on there. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with free Messenger emoticons. Get them today! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 27 12:19:53 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <47EBD165.1060201@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200803271719.m2RHJtMb001790@onyx.spiritone.com> > I haven't ever checked DND, but I also have DUNGEON V3.2 running on RSX, > but I don't know if that could run under RSTS/E. I did a backport to > RSX, but I had to play around a lot with overlays as well as using split > I/D space to get it running. > > I suspect RT-11 is out of the question though. > > Johnny Dungeon V3.2 would be nice on RT-11, but realistically your Z-Code interpreter lets Zork and Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy run, what more do I need for games on RT-11? :^) The DND webpage http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm mentions versions for TOPS-20, RSTS/E, VAX/VMS, and RT-11 (written in Pascal). In spite of what the webpage states, everything that is there to download appears to be for VMS. Zane From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 15:03:02 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:03:02 -0700 Subject: Research Unix v9, v10 Message-ID: <7d3530220803271303x3d95fda7jbeeccfe5c55a0eef@mail.gmail.com> I've been thinking about some of the later versions of Research Unix, such as v9 and v10. If I could track down install tapes/disks, would I be able to run it on my VAXstation 4000-60? It seems that post-v7 didn't spread very far, so I guess I won't be too surprised if nobody knows :( John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 27 15:19:16 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <47EBDEF3.6060004@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200803272019.m2RKJGTC005656@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Dungeon V3.2 would be nice on RT-11, but realistically your Z-Code > > interpreter lets Zork and Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy run, what more do > > I need for games on RT-11? :^) > > :-) > But the Inform libraries are soo CPU-intentisive that it's no fun trying > to play ZDUNGEON on a real PDP-11. > In comparision, the Fortran version zipps ahead. > > But the original Infocom games run really well on a PDP-11 with ZEMU. > Which reminds me that I should make a new release. I have fixed some > rather obscure bugs these last few years. I only had the last version you released running on SIMH, but the original release seemed to be just fine under RT-11. Maybe it's time you give up on RSX, and switch to RT-11! :^) > > The DND webpage http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm mentions > > versions for TOPS-20, RSTS/E, VAX/VMS, and RT-11 (written in Pascal). In > > spite of what the webpage states, everything that is there to download > > appears to be for VMS. > > Hmm, trying to understand what it is, still... Multiplayer dungeon game? > I guess I could truy to get some version down on MIM, and see if I can > whip it into working... Log into the guest account on PDXVAX. I just placed it in [.DND2] under the guest account, and verified it works. It is sort of like Rogue or Nethack. I need to figure out what it takes to heal my character. :^) You can apparently have multiple players going through the dungeon, but I don't think there is any interaction. I really don't know anything about it, but have been wanting to play. While some source code for VMS at least exists, there really isn't any details on how to link the files together. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 27 15:20:11 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Research Unix v9, v10 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803271303x3d95fda7jbeeccfe5c55a0eef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200803272020.m2RKKBGG005683@onyx.spiritone.com> > I've been thinking about some of the later versions of Research Unix, > such as v9 and v10. If I could track down install tapes/disks, would I > be able to run it on my VAXstation 4000-60? It seems that post-v7 > didn't spread very far, so I guess I won't be too surprised if nobody > knows :( To the best of my knowledge the first Unix varient to support a VAXstation 4000 was NetBSD. Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 27 15:25:41 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Research Unix v9, v10 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803271303x3d95fda7jbeeccfe5c55a0eef@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220803271303x3d95fda7jbeeccfe5c55a0eef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42864.64.62.206.10.1206649541.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> John Floren wrote: > I've been thinking about some of the later versions of Research Unix, > such as v9 and v10. If I could track down install tapes/disks, would I > be able to run it on my VAXstation 4000-60? Not likely without some porting effort, akin to moving NetBSD to a formerly unsupported VAX model. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 27 14:44:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:44:24 -0700 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:12:02 -0500 > From: Randy Dawson > IBM's software would not run on a machine that did not have "copyright > IBM" in the BIOS. > > hahaha their workaround made them the most compatible clone. Actually, a lot of people spent a lot of time reverse-engineering the IBM BIOS. You really don't get a sense of this until you realize that Phoenix not only made sure that the functionality of the BIOS routines was the same, but that the routines themselves were located at the same place in memory. I wonder why this wasn't done with the Mac ROMs? Fear of Apple suing? Anyone know for certain? Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 16:39:09 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:39:09 -0400 Subject: Research Unix v9, v10 In-Reply-To: <200803272020.m2RKKBGG005683@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200803272020.m2RKKBGG005683@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <47EC13FD.1040504@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I've been thinking about some of the later versions of Research Unix, >> such as v9 and v10. If I could track down install tapes/disks, would I >> be able to run it on my VAXstation 4000-60? It seems that post-v7 >> didn't spread very far, so I guess I won't be too surprised if nobody >> knows :( > > To the best of my knowledge the first Unix varient to support a VAXstation > 4000 was NetBSD. What was the last VAX machine Ultrix supported? Peace... Sridhar From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Mar 27 16:50:51 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:50:51 -0400 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <200803272019.m2RKJGTC005656@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <47EBDEF3.6060004@softjar.se> <200803272019.m2RKJGTC005656@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: how to login to PDXCAX over the internet? possible? ALso, which of those files is pascal? Dan. ---------------------------------------- > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > To: bqt at softjar.se > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:19:16 -0700 > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: advent sources? > >>> Dungeon V3.2 would be nice on RT-11, but realistically your Z-Code >>> interpreter lets Zork and Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy run, what more do >>> I need for games on RT-11? :^) >> >> :-) >> But the Inform libraries are soo CPU-intentisive that it's no fun trying >> to play ZDUNGEON on a real PDP-11. >> In comparision, the Fortran version zipps ahead. >> >> But the original Infocom games run really well on a PDP-11 with ZEMU. >> Which reminds me that I should make a new release. I have fixed some >> rather obscure bugs these last few years. > > I only had the last version you released running on SIMH, but the original > release seemed to be just fine under RT-11. Maybe it's time you give up on > RSX, and switch to RT-11! :^) > >>> The DND webpage http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm mentions >>> versions for TOPS-20, RSTS/E, VAX/VMS, and RT-11 (written in Pascal). > In >>> spite of what the webpage states, everything that is there to download >>> appears to be for VMS. >> >> Hmm, trying to understand what it is, still... Multiplayer dungeon game? >> I guess I could truy to get some version down on MIM, and see if I can >> whip it into working... > > Log into the guest account on PDXVAX. I just placed it in [.DND2] under the > guest account, and verified it works. It is sort of like Rogue or Nethack. > I need to figure out what it takes to heal my character. :^) You can > apparently have multiple players going through the dungeon, but I don't > think there is any interaction. I really don't know anything about it, but > have been wanting to play. > > While some source code for VMS at least exists, there really isn't any > details on how to link the files together. > > Zane > _________________________________________________________________ Enter the Hunt & you could win a 2008 Eclipse Spyder! Click here to enter! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/213 From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Mar 27 17:12:08 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:12:08 -0500 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: ... > Actually, a lot of people spent a lot of time reverse-engineering the > IBM BIOS. You really don't get a sense of this until you realize > that Phoenix not only made sure that the functionality of the BIOS > routines was the same, but that the routines themselves were located > at the same place in memory. > > I wonder why this wasn't done with the Mac ROMs? Fear of Apple > suing? Anyone know for certain? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > Not for certain, but I'm sure relative market share had a lot to do with it. I'd say another factor was that the mac ROMs were quite a bit larger than the PC BIOS of the time (512KB vs 40 KB). From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 27 17:19:35 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:19:35 -0500 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47EC1D77.2030102@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually, a lot of people spent a lot of time reverse-engineering the > IBM BIOS. You really don't get a sense of this until you realize > that Phoenix not only made sure that the functionality of the BIOS > routines was the same, but that the routines themselves were located > at the same place in memory. Having them in the same place in memory seems like a big waste of time. I can't think of a single instance in which knowing where the routines are located in memory can help me write a faster or smaller program. If the routines do the same thing, and are at the same place in ROM, how different enough (to avoid copyright) from the originals could they be? It's been a while since I looked at the tech ref listings but they didn't seem all that horribly written (I know others will disagree, I myself found a bug in the cursor handling in my 5160 ROM, but that's not the point -- the point is that they weren't SO terrible that they could be significantly improved or made smaller)... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 27 17:18:32 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> > how to login to PDXCAX over the internet? possible? > > ALso, which of those files is pascal? > > Dan. PDXVAX is only accessable via DECnet (it is on HECnet). The RT-11 source is apparently in Pascal, however, I don't know of anyone having a copy. I have VAX BASIC source that I downloaded from the webpage I've referenced, http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm, the problem is, I'm not sure how to actually build it. I've played some with the source on my Alpha running OpenVMS 8.3 and I believe the current version of HP BASIC (that sounds so wrong). Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 27 17:25:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:25:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF0A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Mar 26, 8 01:20:59 pm Message-ID: > Now I need either a couple of 74194's or an M8330 board.=20 The former being a lot easier to find than the latter, quite apart from the moral aspect of keeping the machine as original as possible. I don;t know if they have them, but have you tried Cricklewood Electronics? They had some 74(LS)95 chips when I needed them to repair an old HP machine, and seem to be the only place that did. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 27 18:26:38 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Jim Battle wrote: > I'd say another factor was that the mac ROMs were quite a bit > larger than the PC BIOS of the time (512KB vs 40 KB). The PC BIOS was 8KB. The rest of the ROM (32KB) was Microsoft BASIC. Most (legitimate) clones didn't bother to include BASIC in ROM, instead supplying BASIC on disk (vs. BASICA on IBM-DOS, which was an extension to the ROM BASIC). The original Mac ROM was 128KB. Jim Leonard wrote: > Having them in the same place in memory seems like a big waste of time. Suppose you're trying to market a PC clone. How successful will you be if some piece of popular software for the PC won't run on your clone, because that software depends on direct calls into the ROM, or direct access to tables in the ROM (e.g., the character generator)? Back in those days, *lots* of software did wacky things like that. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 27 18:35:39 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <60091.64.62.206.10.1206660939.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The original Mac ROM was 128KB. Strike that. The original Mac ROM was 64KB. The 128KB ROM was introduced in 1986 for the Macintosh Plus and Macintosh 512KE. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 27 20:03:06 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reverse-engineering Snap (Panasonic HHC) Message-ID: <60552.64.62.206.10.1206666186.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I've confirmed my earlier guess that Snap uses bytecode rather than pointers as a normal FORTH. The BRK instruction ($00) is used for entry into Snap, and is followed by bytecodes. The interrupt handler checks the B flag to see if a BRK occurred. If so, it pulls the PC from the stack into registers, subtracts one, and stores it into the Snap instruction pointer at $0015/16. The BRK handler and Snap primitives end with a jump to NEXT at $0009, which points to $CC2E. The code there fetches the byte pointed to by the Snap instruction pointer, and depending on the two high order bits, jumps indirect via jump tables from $c000-$c0ff, $c100-$c17f, or $0000-$007f. At least, that's what happens if the contents of $66 is zero. If it's non-zero, it goes somewhere else, and I haven't figured out what's up with that. Anyone else ever dig into the innards of Snap? Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 27 21:53:50 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:53:50 -0500 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > Suppose you're trying to market a PC clone. How successful will you be > if some piece of popular software for the PC won't run on your clone, > because that software depends on direct calls into the ROM, or direct > access to tables in the ROM (e.g., the character generator)? Back in > those days, *lots* of software did wacky things like that. Yes, but *why*? I am getting to be what I consider a pretty decent assembler programmer, specifically on the 5150/5160, and I honestly can't see *why* I would *ever* want to specifically jump directly into the middle of the BIOS. I *call* BIOS routines, obviously, but what possible benefit or purpose could there be to jumping directly into ROM? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 27 22:06:32 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:06:32 -0700 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <41D186F8-4BBF-416D-8598-3C6611CA2B58@shiresoft.com> On Mar 27, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >> Suppose you're trying to market a PC clone. How successful will >> you be >> if some piece of popular software for the PC won't run on your clone, >> because that software depends on direct calls into the ROM, or direct >> access to tables in the ROM (e.g., the character generator)? Back in >> those days, *lots* of software did wacky things like that. > > Yes, but *why*? I am getting to be what I consider a pretty decent > assembler programmer, specifically on the 5150/5160, and I honestly > can't see *why* I would *ever* want to specifically jump directly > into the middle of the BIOS. I *call* BIOS routines, obviously, but > what possible benefit or purpose could there be to jumping directly > into ROM? 1. Because you can. 2. Because it can save a bit of RAM. Remember in the early days of the PC, saving bytes was important for a number of programs. They had to fit in "typical" machines at the time. In many cases this was on a 16K machine, every byte counted and not all of the functions in the BIOS were exported by INT xx entry points. In many ways IBM made it easy because they published the complete assembly listing of the BIOS ROM. While I was at IBM (Boca Raton, FL), there were rules on the locations of certain BIOS routines (ie their entry points needed to be at a certain address in the ROM). This continued into the 1990's. TTFN - Guy From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Mar 27 22:15:25 2008 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:15:25 -0400 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> References: <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080327230841.0127ec08@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Eric Smith wrote: >>Suppose you're trying to market a PC clone. How successful will you be >>if some piece of popular software for the PC won't run on your clone, >>because that software depends on direct calls into the ROM, or direct >>access to tables in the ROM (e.g., the character generator)? Back in >>those days, *lots* of software did wacky things like that. > >Yes, but *why*? I am getting to be what I consider a pretty decent >assembler programmer, specifically on the 5150/5160, and I honestly can't >see *why* I would *ever* want to specifically jump directly into the >middle of the BIOS. I *call* BIOS routines, obviously, but what possible >benefit or purpose could there be to jumping directly into ROM? But you wouldn't have to *jump* into the middle of a bios for wanting stuff in the right place - back in them thar daze, just peeking for a value (screen size / format / other things I can't begin to fathom as I don't know PeeSee's for diddle ;-) could cause programs to break... heck, even just poking into video memory was a widespread tactic to increase speed, and if Compaq could make their cleanroom BIOS as compatible as possible - trying to look ahead to squish bugs that may or may not exist (gosh, what if BG took that tactic with Vista nowadays??? ;-) Well, it must've worked even partway - Compaq was an awfully big company at one time... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 22:32:55 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:32:55 -0400 Subject: Reverse-engineering Snap (Panasonic HHC) In-Reply-To: <60552.64.62.206.10.1206666186.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <60552.64.62.206.10.1206666186.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0803272032t39601788hffa6e2f5c95a3268@mail.gmail.com> Hello Eric (and other HHC users), all this talk has made me dig out my Panasonic HHC - I also have the printer (RL-P1004A). Unfortunately I have no documentation and no ROMs that allow any sort of programming AFAICT... I have 6 ROMS, 4 dated 10/02/86, and two 08/18/87. They appear to be from La Laurentienne bank with some sort of banking software with a (c) QuadROM. I don't think they would be of any particular interest to anyone (unless you need to recalculate your 1986 RRSP contributions for your Quebec provincial tax) but if anyone wants them to examine/archive I'd be happy to send them. Does the order of ROMs in the sockets matter? I would assume so - but there is no (obvious to me) indication of which ROM would go where. How difficult would it be to copy a ROM? The bank ROMs are simply EPROMs with sticky paper labels, I think I could simply erase one and the reprogram it with a homebuild adapter so as not to damage the carrier... Is there any information out there on how to program the HHC in 6502 assembly? memory maps, keyboard and LCD interface, etc... Joe. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 27 22:50:08 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:50:08 -0500 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <41D186F8-4BBF-416D-8598-3C6611CA2B58@shiresoft.com> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> <41D186F8-4BBF-416D-8598-3C6611CA2B58@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <47EC6AF0.5030308@oldskool.org> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > 2. Because it can save a bit of RAM. Remember in the early days of the > PC, saving bytes was important for a number of programs. They had to > fit in "typical" machines at the time. In many cases this was on a 16K > machine, every byte counted and not all of the functions in the BIOS > were exported by INT xx entry points. In many ways IBM made it easy > because they published the complete assembly listing of the BIOS ROM. While I can appreciate this philosophy, I still can't see how it would be beneficial on the 5150/5160. For example, let's say I want to move the cursor to a new location, say (10,15). Typical way is something like this: mov ah,2 ;set video mode mov bh,0 ;video page 0 mov dh,15 ;col 15 mov dl,10 ;row 10 int 10h ;do it That's 10 bytes. The INT call pushes the flags, CS, and IP onto the stack, jumps to the routine, the routine executes, and then *in the ROM routine itself* there is an IRET, which POPs IP, CS, and flags and then continues from that point. It is the IRET that is causing me trouble on how to figure out what better way to do this, because once you hit the IRET you had better have the IP, CS, and flags on the stack because they're going to get restored whether you want them to or not. And you can't just patch in a JMP into the ROM code to return, because it's ROM. So the only scenario I can think of is something like, maybe you only want to move the cursor downward, on the same page, and you don't want to set those extra input registers. Let's also assume that you know the exact location in ROM where you want to JMP so that the BIOS routine can do only what you want it to. You would still have to do something like this: mov bh,0 ;set video page 0 mov dl,10 ;move cursor down only CALL 1234:5678 (go directly to your magic function) That's 9 bytes. So you have saved ONE byte, yes, but that is for an extremely specific optimized case. The CALL is necessary because of the IRET that is coming at the end of the function. If that was a more common practice than I realize, then I guess I stand corrected. But it just doesn't seem worth it. When I'm *that* pressured for space, I use code overlays (if the language allows it) or something else, like using non-visible video RAM for storage. (Yes, that's disgusting, but I'm not going to turn down 12K of free RAM just because I'm only using one video page! Remember, even a monochrome card, with it's single 80x25 video page, has 96 bytes of unused ram...) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 27 23:21:03 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:21:03 -0700 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EC6AF0.5030308@oldskool.org> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> <41D186F8-4BBF-416D-8598-3C6611CA2B58@shiresoft.com> <47EC6AF0.5030308@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <631F1992-D64D-4AC5-A8B3-C84E37612A34@shiresoft.com> On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:50 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> 2. Because it can save a bit of RAM. Remember in the early days of >> the PC, saving bytes was important for a number of programs. They >> had to fit in "typical" machines at the time. In many cases this >> was on a 16K machine, every byte counted and not all of the >> functions in the BIOS were exported by INT xx entry points. In >> many ways IBM made it easy because they published the complete >> assembly listing of the BIOS ROM. > > While I can appreciate this philosophy, I still can't see how it > would be beneficial on the 5150/5160. For example, let's say I want > to move the cursor to a new location, say (10,15). That's not what people were doing. As I said before, they called in to functions that weren't exported. Or they wanted a bit more speed, so they bypassed the higher level routine (done by the INT) and called directly in. In some cases it actually saved bytes because you didn't have to load the function ID into a register first, you just called the specific routine you wanted. Without having a BIOS listing in front of me, I can't quote an exact example. But the above was the philosophy...speed (skipping a few instructions *did* make a difference) or saving bytes by not having to do all of the setup. TTFN - Guy From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 28 00:33:20 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:33:20 -0500 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <631F1992-D64D-4AC5-A8B3-C84E37612A34@shiresoft.com> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> <41D186F8-4BBF-416D-8598-3C6611CA2B58@shiresoft.com> <47EC6AF0.5030308@oldskool.org> <631F1992-D64D-4AC5-A8B3-C84E37612A34@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <47EC8320.3000505@oldskool.org> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Without having a BIOS listing in front of me, I can't quote an exact > example. But the above was the philosophy...speed (skipping a few > instructions *did* make a difference) or saving bytes by not having to > do all of the setup. I have a BIOS listing of the PCjr (techref is in front of me); I will look at the listing to see if I can see obvious places where this would result in a savings. Thanks for the discussion and history. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Fri Mar 28 01:07:52 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:07:52 +0100 Subject: FTGH: Stuff! Message-ID: <20080328070752.yvjbq46by80k04g8@webmail.izone.at> Hi Joseph, as I told you in a former eMail, which probably miss you, I am interested on your TI-99/4a. So, could you think about shipping it to Austria/Europe, I will pay packing and shipping, no question. Thanks for any answer Gerhard gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at[1] Links: ------ [1] mailto:gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Fri Mar 28 01:00:15 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:00:15 +0100 Subject: M8330 or SN74194 needed. Message-ID: <20080328070015.q7ujdmxw6ckgc0cs@webmail.izone.at> Hi Rod, ? ?maybe I can help. I have a M8330 board, but status is unknown and I? think I also have sn74194s, but I have to search for them. ? ?How shure you are about this diagnose, did you take some? measuremens with an oszilloscope or similar? ? ?With best regards ? ?Gerhard From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 28 01:31:02 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:31:02 -0700 Subject: Research Unix v9, v10 In-Reply-To: <47EC13FD.1040504@gmail.com> References: <200803272020.m2RKKBGG005683@onyx.spiritone.com> <47EC13FD.1040504@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:39 PM -0400 3/27/08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>I've been thinking about some of the later versions of Research Unix, >>>such as v9 and v10. If I could track down install tapes/disks, would I >>>be able to run it on my VAXstation 4000-60? It seems that post-v7 >>>didn't spread very far, so I guess I won't be too surprised if nobody >>>knows :( >> >>To the best of my knowledge the first Unix varient to support a VAXstation >>4000 was NetBSD. > >What was the last VAX machine Ultrix supported? Doesn't Ultrix support early models of the VAXstation 3100? I don't believe it supports any model in the 4000 series. I honestly don't know, the tapes I have are V1 or V2, and only support MicroVAX I & II systems. I've only tried to run Ultrix on MIPS-based DECstation 5000/133 (the system was actually purchased to run NetBSD). As I've said before, I like my Unix nice and fast, and prefer to run interesting OS's on PDP-11's, VAXen, and Alpha's. If it's a VAX, it should be running VMS. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 01:56:51 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:56:51 -0400 Subject: Research Unix v9, v10 In-Reply-To: References: <200803272020.m2RKKBGG005683@onyx.spiritone.com> <47EC13FD.1040504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220803272356j78f3f724ne5f10c37d32cb587@mail.gmail.com> On 3/28/08, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Doesn't Ultrix support early models of the VAXstation 3100? I don't > believe it supports any model in the 4000 series. I honestly don't > know, the tapes I have are V1 or V2, and only support MicroVAX I & II > systems. I've only tried to run Ultrix on MIPS-based DECstation > 5000/133 (the system was actually purchased to run NetBSD). As I've > said before, I like my Unix nice and fast, and prefer to run > interesting OS's on PDP-11's, VAXen, and Alpha's. If it's a VAX, it > should be running VMS. > > Zane > I already have VMS on my Alpha and the VAX; if I can't get Research Unix on the VAX, I'll stay with VMS. The later additions to Research Unix evolved in some interesting directions which eventually led to Plan 9, the OS I develop for at work. I'd love to find a Blit (AT&T/Teletype model 5620) terminal and a VAX capable of running v10; that was a brilliant system. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From bqt at softjar.se Thu Mar 27 04:07:36 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:07:36 +0100 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <200803261800.m2QI06lU055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803261800.m2QI06lU055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47EB63D8.5070503@softjar.se> "Zane H. Healy" skrev: >> trolling through some old mit backups... >> >> I found a copy of "advent" fortran source from 1979. Is that interesting >> to anyone? It looks more complex than the Crowther sources but I have >> no idea. >> >> I also found a file with PDP-6 Space war sources. Anyone interested? >> It mentions a "340" display. It's an ITS "ar" file which I think would >> be easy to pull apart back into ascii files. >> >> -brad > > Any chance of a copy of DND in there? Especially for RSTS/E or RT-11? I'm > aware of what is at http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm I have atleast ADVENT compiled and running under RSX. Should work fine under RSTS/E as well. Just check on MIM::SYS$GAMES: Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ccrodie at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 27 10:15:59 2008 From: ccrodie at bellsouth.net (Chris Rodie) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:15:59 -0400 Subject: Need MK3801 datasheet Message-ID: <47EBBA2F.1070709@bellsouth.net> Does anyone out there have a datasheet and/or programming info (register addressing scheme) for the Mostek MK3801 multi-function I/O device (a Z80 peripheral)? I can't find one anywhere. (Info for MK68901 and other "derivatives" is available, but these devices are apparently not clones.) Any help much appreciated. Chris R. From bqt at softjar.se Thu Mar 27 11:55:01 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:55:01 +0100 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: References: <200803261800.m2QI06lU055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB63D8.5070503@softjar.se> Message-ID: <47EBD165.1060201@softjar.se> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:07 AM +0100 3/27/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> "Zane H. Healy" skrev: > >>> Any chance of a copy of DND in there? Especially for RSTS/E or >>> RT-11? I'm >>> aware of what is at http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm >> >> I have atleast ADVENT compiled and running under RSX. Should work fine >> under RSTS/E as well. >> >> Just check on MIM::SYS$GAMES: > > The VAX/VMS version of DND can be found at PDXVAX::GAMES: > > One of these days I'll get a few more games on there. I haven't ever checked DND, but I also have DUNGEON V3.2 running on RSX, but I don't know if that could run under RSTS/E. I did a backport to RSX, but I had to play around a lot with overlays as well as using split I/D space to get it running. I suspect RT-11 is out of the question though. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Thu Mar 27 12:00:53 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:00:53 +0100 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: References: <200803261800.m2QI06lU055520@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB63D8.5070503@softjar.se> Message-ID: <47EBD2C5.3050201@softjar.se> Those are filename specifications used on systems with DECnet. So no, you cannot generally, access them from your generic PC. The filenames consist of a machine name, device, directory and filename parts. And you also need to be on the "right" DECnet in order to access them. However, it's a easy way of give a reference to a file within a DEC-centric world. Similar to giving an URL to reference a file over the internet. However, Mim also happens to be a machine on the internet, on which anyone can log on. It's accessible as telnet:mim.update.uu.se, and you can log in with username GUEST, with password GUEST Johnny Dan Gahlinger wrote: > How do you read those references? > ie: MIM::SYS$GAMES: or PDXVAX::GAMES: ? > > can I access this from my regular PC somehow? > or how will my vax access this? > > > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:43:32 -0700 > > To: bqt at softjar.se; cctalk at classiccmp.org > > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > > CC: > > Subject: Re: advent sources? > > > > At 10:07 AM +0100 3/27/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >"Zane H. Healy" skrev: > > > > >>Any chance of a copy of DND in there? Especially for RSTS/E or > RT-11? I'm > > >>aware of what is at http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm > > > > > >I have atleast ADVENT compiled and running under RSX. Should work > > >fine under RSTS/E as well. > > > > > >Just check on MIM::SYS$GAMES: > > > > The VAX/VMS version of DND can be found at PDXVAX::GAMES: > > > > One of these days I'll get a few more games on there. > > > > Zane > > > > > > -- > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Express yourself with free Messenger emoticons. Get them today! > From jrr at flippers.com Thu Mar 27 12:06:15 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:06:15 -0700 Subject: Need MK3801 datasheet In-Reply-To: <47EBBA2F.1070709@bellsouth.net> References: <47EBBA2F.1070709@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <47EBD407.3000405@flippers.com> Chris Rodie wrote: > Does anyone out there have a datasheet and/or programming info > (register addressing scheme) for the Mostek MK3801 multi-function I/O > device (a Z80 peripheral)? I can't find one anywhere. (Info for > MK68901 and other "derivatives" is available, but these devices are > apparently not clones.) Any help much appreciated. > > Chris R. > > I have MOSTEK 1982/1983 Microelectronic Data Book that has 15 pages on the MK3801. Would scanning that help you? Do you need everything or just part - takes time to scan of course... John :-#)# From bqt at softjar.se Thu Mar 27 12:52:51 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:52:51 +0100 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <200803271719.m2RHJtMb001790@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200803271719.m2RHJtMb001790@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <47EBDEF3.6060004@softjar.se> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I haven't ever checked DND, but I also have DUNGEON V3.2 running on RSX, >> but I don't know if that could run under RSTS/E. I did a backport to >> RSX, but I had to play around a lot with overlays as well as using split >> I/D space to get it running. >> >> I suspect RT-11 is out of the question though. >> >> Johnny > > Dungeon V3.2 would be nice on RT-11, but realistically your Z-Code > interpreter lets Zork and Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy run, what more do > I need for games on RT-11? :^) :-) But the Inform libraries are soo CPU-intentisive that it's no fun trying to play ZDUNGEON on a real PDP-11. In comparision, the Fortran version zipps ahead. But the original Infocom games run really well on a PDP-11 with ZEMU. Which reminds me that I should make a new release. I have fixed some rather obscure bugs these last few years. > The DND webpage http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm mentions > versions for TOPS-20, RSTS/E, VAX/VMS, and RT-11 (written in Pascal). In > spite of what the webpage states, everything that is there to download > appears to be for VMS. Hmm, trying to understand what it is, still... Multiplayer dungeon game? I guess I could truy to get some version down on MIM, and see if I can whip it into working... Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Thu Mar 27 16:25:22 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:25:22 +0100 Subject: advent sources? In-Reply-To: <200803272019.m2RKJGTC005656@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200803272019.m2RKJGTC005656@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <47EC10C2.6090807@softjar.se> Zane H. Healy skrev: >>> Dungeon V3.2 would be nice on RT-11, but realistically your Z-Code >>> interpreter lets Zork and Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy run, what more do >>> I need for games on RT-11? :^) >> :-) >> But the Inform libraries are soo CPU-intentisive that it's no fun trying >> to play ZDUNGEON on a real PDP-11. >> In comparision, the Fortran version zipps ahead. >> >> But the original Infocom games run really well on a PDP-11 with ZEMU. >> Which reminds me that I should make a new release. I have fixed some >> rather obscure bugs these last few years. > > I only had the last version you released running on SIMH, but the original > release seemed to be just fine under RT-11. Maybe it's time you give up on > RSX, and switch to RT-11! :^) The original release runs fine for much stuff, but I've been hunting around for different "other" Z-machine games, such as the ones written for IF competitions, and all kind of "modern" games written for the Z-machine, and running those have uncovered some special cases that wasn't handled correctly, as well as some optimizations that I've done... But most people probably would not notice those problems. :-) Oh, I've extended ZEMU to handle up to V8 games as well. The previously released version only do up to V5 games. V6 games are still not working correctly, and I haven't figured out what the problem is. Those are kind of special anyway, and the only V6 game I have to test against is ZORK ZERO, which appearantly is kind of buggy as well, which makes it even harder to sort it out. When I have time... :-) >>> The DND webpage http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm mentions >>> versions for TOPS-20, RSTS/E, VAX/VMS, and RT-11 (written in Pascal). > In >>> spite of what the webpage states, everything that is there to download >>> appears to be for VMS. >> Hmm, trying to understand what it is, still... Multiplayer dungeon game? >> I guess I could truy to get some version down on MIM, and see if I can >> whip it into working... > > Log into the guest account on PDXVAX. I just placed it in [.DND2] under the > guest account, and verified it works. It is sort of like Rogue or Nethack. > I need to figure out what it takes to heal my character. :^) You can > apparently have multiple players going through the dungeon, but I don't > think there is any interaction. I really don't know anything about it, but > have been wanting to play. Aha. Okay, so it's kindof like a precursor to MORIA as well... :-) > While some source code for VMS at least exists, there really isn't any > details on how to link the files together. Hmm. Might take a look one of these days, but it don't feel that urgent... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 27 18:02:47 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:02:47 -0800 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EC1D77.2030102@oldskool.org> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1D77.2030102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47EC2797.4030108@jwsss.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Actually, a lot of people spent a lot of time reverse-engineering the >> IBM BIOS. You really don't get a sense of this until you realize >> that Phoenix not only made sure that the functionality of the BIOS >> routines was the same, but that the routines themselves were located >> at the same place in memory. > > Having them in the same place in memory seems like a big waste of > time. I can't think of a single instance in which knowing where the > routines are located in memory can help me write a faster or smaller > program. > > If the routines do the same thing, and are at the same place in ROM, > how different enough (to avoid copyright) from the originals could > they be? It's been a while since I looked at the tech ref listings > but they didn't seem all that horribly written (I know others will > disagree, I myself found a bug in the cursor handling in my 5160 ROM, > but that's not the point -- the point is that they weren't SO terrible > that they could be significantly improved or made smaller)... I worked with a number of people who worked for Phoenix and have also worked with people who who have had to make the BIOS work. it also is not so much that the routines have to be the same place, but the data tables do as well for things to work. Many drivers will go thru the bios table and find the routine then tables for various functions. They would fail if the signature was different or the tables didn't match. Many times the code that does this was in other rom drivers as well. It became simpler to just put all as near the same spot as possible and do away with such problems that way. Also as far as the Mac roms are concerned Apple never published them in any form, and may in fact have them under a copyrighted "unpubliished" form which cannot be legally reverse engineered as was the IBM BIOS. IBM did not come after the copiers until a stable clone of the BIOS appeared and the market demanded that IBM keep compatability with the model. Only marginal changes such as the AT updates took hold with few of the updates to the model which was in the originally closed PS2 design ever got traction. If Apple had ever let a reverse engineered version of their hardware out of their control take hold, they would have had the same situation as IBM w/o the resources to survive the competition. -- ********************************** * * note my email address is changing to jws at jwsss.com * ********************************** From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Thu Mar 27 19:35:09 2008 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:35:09 -0400 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> Anyone have manuals for DECserver 550's. I aquired two via ebay, drove about 320 miles rt for pickup. I have one MOP loaded already but would like to find some owner/tech manuals for reference. I have googled and looked in Manx and other archives, but nothing seems to be available. I would like to convert the other to a PDP 11/53 as both have the 53+ cpu's. As for the conversion to a PDP11, can I use a TK70 tape drive?, most I have seen have TK50's. What cards can I use? such as memory and disk drives. My memory is kind of fuzzy with PDP 11's I have not done any serious work on them for about 20 years. I remember the first one was a 11/03 (V03?) and the last was a 11/83. OS varied from RSTS to RSX11M+ I found the site(s) that detail the DS550 to PDP11/53 conversion, most conversions have MFM type drives, can I use DSSI such as a KFQSA? and what type of ethernet controller? TIA, Dan Snyder From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Thu Mar 27 20:16:27 2008 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:16:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Midwest Gaming Classic This Weekend In-Reply-To: <60552.64.62.206.10.1206666186.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 27, 2008 06:03:06 PM Message-ID: <200803280116.m2S1GSnq030592@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Just a reminder that the largest all encompassing event of its kind is this weekend in Wisconsin. The Midwest Gaming Classic is dedicated to consoles, computers, video coin-ops and pinball from past to present. There's a large ammount of displays, vendors, competitions, and the museum area (where everything is set up to use and enjoy, i.e. its all playable). 20,000 square feet, over 2 days. Retro-computing wise, The Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention group will be having a Commodore area there, and there is also a Tandy group coming. There will also be computing displays for Atari, TI, Apple and more.... They'll also be speakers - Yours truly on the relaunch of Microprose Walter Day of TwinGalaxies Ben Heckendorn on console hacking and more.... Olympia Resort and Conference Center 1350 Royale Mile Road Oconomowoc, WI 53066 1-800-558-9573 * Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 10:00am to 8:00pm * Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 10:00am to 5:00pm If you're interested on showing off anything of yours the last minute, let me know and I can arrange for space. This is not a "kiddies" gaming event, average age is 30-45, so anything you bring will be appreciated and enjoyed by the attendees. www.midwestgamingclassic.com for more info, or email me directly. Marty From pneubauer at bluerwhite.org Fri Mar 28 00:56:11 2008 From: pneubauer at bluerwhite.org (Peter Neubauer) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:56:11 -0700 Subject: HP150 and HP110 systems free to good home Message-ID: <47EC887B.8090209@bluerwhite.org> I have complete HP150 and HP110 systems that I would like to give to a collector. I am relocating and do not have the space for these machines anymore. Here's a summary of what I have: An HP150 system in good working condition - built-in thermal printer - dual HP-IB floppy drives - HP-IL/parallel expansion card - tilt-swivel base - keyboard - Thinkjet printer (HP-IB interface) - all HP-IB cables - lots of software and manuals, including original system, demo, Memomaker, Lotus 1-2-3, Visicalc, and calculator disks, among others - lots of manuals, including original system and DOS manuals, among others - The HP Museum (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=43) has details on the HP150 An HP110 system in non-working condition - the system has a bad memory chip somewhere in the RAM disk; the system boots and runs; the system diagnostics identify the bad chip; the RAM disk does not reliably retain data - two HP-IL floppy drives - Thinkjet printer (HP-IL) - all HP-IL cables - all power adapters - original system and software disks - original manuals - The HP Museum (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=48) has details on the HP110 I also have a TRS-80 Model III (no floppy drives), an IBM PC/XT keyboard (a heavy metal keyboard, PN#1801449), and an IBM 5152 Personal Computer Graphics Printer. Everything is boxed up at the moment. If you are interested, I will unbox them and provide details. I won't charge anything to pass the systems onto a collector who can pick them up in Phoenix, AZ USA. Please send me an e-mail if you're interested in anything. Thank you, -Peter Neubauer From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Mar 28 01:21:00 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:21:00 -0000 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF1C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Tony I agree that the concept of originality is important in what we do. The system I have is original in the sense that all the parts are from the right era. However the current configuration is not that as stated on the factory label. You could also say that any item with a date of later than the manufacturing date and not the result of a repair or upgrade is not original. Thanks for the tip re Cricklewood I will contact them. I must say that for the few days it did work I was really pleased with it. I had got as far as sending a stream of characters out to a screen at 110 Baud. I had forgotten how few instructions you needed to get it to do something useful. I actually used to service PDP8's at Harwell circa 1971. The first type had a large number of small boards with transistor based logic on them. The other type were as the one I have, using mainly TTL plus something that needs +3 Volts. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 27 March 2008 22:25 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's > Now I need either a couple of 74194's or an M8330 board.=20 The former being a lot easier to find than the latter, quite apart from the moral aspect of keeping the machine as original as possible. I don;t know if they have them, but have you tried Cricklewood Electronics? They had some 74(LS)95 chips when I needed them to repair an old HP machine, and seem to be the only place that did. -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Mar 28 03:03:49 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:03:49 +0000 Subject: Reverse-engineering Snap (Panasonic HHC) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0803272032t39601788hffa6e2f5c95a3268@mail.gmail.com> References: <60552.64.62.206.10.1206666186.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4affc5e0803272032t39601788hffa6e2f5c95a3268@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206691429.13612.1.camel@elric> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 23:32 -0400, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > How difficult would it be to copy a ROM? The bank ROMs are simply > EPROMs with sticky paper labels, I think I could simply erase one and > the reprogram it with a homebuild adapter so as not to damage the > carrier... If it's just an ordinary ROM, extremely easy. You just read it, and blow another. I've taken to using Flash memory from scrapped motherboards, with a suitable adaptor to make it fit 28-pin sockets and the additional address lines held low. It takes seconds to erase, rather than half an hour. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 28 05:03:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:03:39 -0700 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <200803280744.m2S7icdr079325@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803280744.m2S7icdr079325@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47EC600B.11145.8F11477@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:33:20 -0500 > From: Jim Leonard > I have a BIOS listing of the PCjr (techref is in front of me); I will look > at the listing to see if I can see obvious places where this would result > in a savings. Thanks for the discussion and history. I first noticed this when I first looked at the PC AT techref. "Why the heck did they code (fill in a routine name) in two pieces like that?" I asked myself. After I grabbled the PC 5150 techref it was obvious. Later, when I got the Phoenix BIOS books, routine locations were called out specifically in the literature, so I wasn't dreaming. I can well imagine that it's useful to some code to know the locations of entry points and ISRs. There was initially no standard convention for "hooking" interrupt vectors, so knowing where the default one was might be useful. I can think of at least one instance where that might be useful--reverse-engineering protection. Calling the ROM BIOS directly precludes a snoopy programmer from just hooking the INT 13H vector and logging a program's disk activity. When I was unraveling copy protection from some of the original PC games, I found having my own custom-hacked BIOS ROMs for such stuff very handy indeed. I do know that the convention continued into the PS/2 line--and, a spot check on the system I've got in front of me (an HP P4-equipped model) shows that the INT 10h vector still points to F000:F065; INT 16h points to F000:E82E--the same addresses used on the original 5150. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 28 05:42:04 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:42:04 -0500 Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EC6AF0.5030308@oldskool.org> References: <41D186F8-4BBF-416D-8598-3C6611CA2B58@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1E4DFFBA671C@dunfield.com> > While I can appreciate this philosophy, I still can't see how it would > be beneficial on the 5150/5160. For example, let's say I want to move > the cursor to a new location, say (10,15). Typical way is something > like this: It has nothing to do with efficiency, it has to do with compatibility. Everyone was jumping on the IBM bandwagon, and they were not all good designers - lots of commercial code depended on details of the ROM that they should not have ... but they did. Your clone might have a fantastically wonderful BIOS. Faster, more bug free than IBM, and code that was a work of art to appreciate... but as soon as some bit of software called a function in the IBM rom that you didn't provide, or provide in the right place, you machine became one of the many "incompatibles" that didn't make it. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Mar 28 07:14:51 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:14:51 -0300 Subject: ROM BIOS References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008a01c890cd$9fcf0860$0102a8c0@portajara> > I wonder why this wasn't done with the Mac ROMs? Fear of Apple > suing? Anyone know for certain? In theory it was. The Brazilian "Unitron 512" SAYS to have a made-from-scratch ROM. I have one, can dump it for analsys if you want. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Mar 28 08:20:14 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:20:14 -0500 Subject: Need MK3801 datasheet Message-ID: <01C890AC.90E72060@host-208-72-122-181.dyn.295.ca> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:15:59 -0400 From: Chris Rodie Subject: Need MK3801 datasheet >Does anyone out there have a datasheet and/or programming info (register >addressing scheme) for the Mostek MK3801 multi-function I/O device (a >Z80 peripheral)? I can't find one anywhere. (Info for MK68901 and >other "derivatives" is available, but these devices are apparently not >clones.) Any help much appreciated. >Chris R. ------ You're not thinking of the MK3881 by any chance? I've sure misread 8s & 0s a few times... mike From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 28 08:34:35 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:34:35 -0500 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> Message-ID: <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> Daniel Snyder wrote: > I found the site(s) that detail the DS550 to PDP11/53 conversion, most > conversions have MFM type drives, > can I use DSSI such as a KFQSA? and what type of ethernet controller? As far as I can tell, anything that's PDP-11 compatible works with my converted KDJ11, including DELQA and DEQNA ethernet, RQZX1 SCSI, RQDX3, and a TK50 drive hanging off a TQK70 board. I don't know about tthe KFQSA. Doc Shipley From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 28 11:00:52 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:00:52 -0700 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: At 8:34 AM -0500 3/28/08, Doc Shipley wrote: >Daniel Snyder wrote: > >>I found the site(s) that detail the DS550 to PDP11/53 conversion, >>most conversions have MFM type drives, >>can I use DSSI such as a KFQSA? and what type of ethernet controller? > > As far as I can tell, anything that's PDP-11 compatible works with >my converted KDJ11, including DELQA and DEQNA ethernet, RQZX1 SCSI, >RQDX3, and a TK50 drive hanging off a TQK70 board. I don't know >about tthe KFQSA. I don't believe I've ever heard about someone using DSSI on a PDP-11. No idea if that would work or not. I think it would in part depend on if it appears as simply another MSCP device. Try it and let us know! :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From drb at msu.edu Fri Mar 28 11:07:04 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:07:04 -0400 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:00:52 PDT.) References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200803281607.m2SG74nc010370@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I don't believe I've ever heard about someone using DSSI on a PDP-11. No > idea if that would work or not. I think it would in part depend on if > it appears as simply another MSCP device. There was some discussion a while back about using a KFQSA with an -11: http://fixunix.com/dec/98110-pdp-11-ba440-box.html It seems to be necessary to use a VAX to configure the KFQSA, at least. I haven't done that part yet, so don't know what else lies along the road. De From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Mar 28 11:20:59 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:20:59 -0400 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <47ED1AEB.1040800@nktelco.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I don't believe I've ever heard about someone using DSSI on a PDP-11. > No idea if that would work or not. I think it would in part depend on > if it appears as simply another MSCP device. > I've done it. For a while I had a KFQSA and an RF71 in a BA23 chassis with a KDJ11-B processor. I ran 2.11BSD. There was a little trouble getting the MSCP bootstrap to work with the KFQSA, but I think that is now included in the patches for 2.11BSD. It really helps if you have a qbus VAX like a KA650 that has DUP in the ROM so you can configure the DSSI disk. I thought it was cool when I discovered that the embedded processor in the RF71 was a VAX. -chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 28 11:25:40 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:25:40 -0700 Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 Message-ID: The following eBay seller has a few MMC Replay's and RR-Net's available for the Commodore 64. http://stores.ebay.com/Reds-Retro-Computing-Extravaganza I've not dealt with this seller before, but I just finished ordering mine from him, so should hopefully have it sometime next week. I'm excited to get it, as the new MMC Replay (the MMC64 and Retro Replay carts combined into one) allows mounting of D64 and D71 images. Not quite as good of a solution as the 1541-III would be, since it won't allow you to use a REU, but I don't own a REU anyway. If you're like me and had wanted to get the MMC64 and Retro Replay, but had never managed to get one, the MMC Replay looks to be a pleasant surprise. It has new features, and is supposed to be more compatible with the C64 and C128's. More details and the manual can be found here. http://www.vesalia.de/e_mmcreplay.htm Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 28 12:26:35 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Mar 28, 8 09:25:40 am" Message-ID: <200803281726.m2SHQZcf018828@floodgap.com> > The following eBay seller has a few MMC Replay's and RR-Net's > available for the Commodore 64. > > http://stores.ebay.com/Reds-Retro-Computing-Extravaganza > > I've not dealt with this seller before, but I just finished ordering > mine from him, so should hopefully have it sometime next week. He is a very reputable seller and I can personally vouch for him. I have an MMC64 and it's a really nice unit. I'm looking at an MMC Replay myself. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is coming to an end. Log off now. -------------------------------- From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 12:35:18 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:35:18 -0700 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: <47ED1AEB.1040800@nktelco.net> References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> <47ED1AEB.1040800@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90803281035q29e1e77cl76fb4c9747f78e54@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > > I've done it. For a while I had a KFQSA and an RF71 in a BA23 chassis > with a KDJ11-B processor. I ran 2.11BSD. There was a little trouble > getting the MSCP bootstrap to work with the KFQSA, but I think that is > now included in the patches for 2.11BSD. > > It really helps if you have a qbus VAX like a KA650 that has DUP in the > ROM so you can configure the DSSI disk. I thought it was cool when I > discovered that the embedded processor in the RF71 was a VAX. I haven't tried 2.11BSD on a KFQSA yet, but I didn't have any problem with RSTS/E 10.1 with a KFQSA. I have that configuration currently setup with a converted DECServer M7554-SD / KDJ11-SD in a BA213. I did have to use a KA655 to configure the KFQSA before using it with the -11. -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 28 12:55:00 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:55:00 -0400 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: <47ED1AEB.1040800@nktelco.net> References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> <47ED1AEB.1040800@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <1C8CF4C4-4F6E-444F-BA8F-181468E3507E@neurotica.com> On Mar 28, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > I thought it was cool when I discovered that the embedded processor > in the RF71 was a VAX. It is?? Wow that is VERY cool. Which chip did they use? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 28 12:58:34 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:58:34 -0400 Subject: Another trip to the storage locker Message-ID: <25870A1C-9477-4C58-830B-44D4A0F59EA7@neurotica.com> I went to my storage locker again yesterday, and retrieved a few more goodies: - VAX-11/730 (R80, RL02) - MINC-11 - VT50 I won't mess with these much until I make some more progress on my current projects, but it's good to have them at home. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 28 13:50:51 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reverse-engineering Mac ROMs (was Re: ROM BIOS) In-Reply-To: <47EC2797.4030108@jwsss.com> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1D77.2030102@oldskool.org> <47EC2797.4030108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <47302.64.62.206.10.1206730251.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> jim s wrote: > Also as far as the Mac roms are concerned Apple never published them in > any form, and may in fact have them under a copyrighted "unpubliished" > form which cannot be legally reverse engineered as was the IBM BIOS. Actually, having purchased a Macintosh 128 that contained those ROMs, there was no legal impediment whatsoever (at least in the US) to reverse-engineering them. In recent times, Sega tried to convince a court that any transient copy of a ROM produced in the course of reverse-engineering is an infringement of copyright, but the court rejected that concept. If someone had really wanted to clone the Mac ROM as part of a commercial venture, they would have needed to use two teams, one to reverse-engineer and write specs, and a the other to write new code from the specs. The fact that Apple published specifications (_Inside Macintosh_) that covered much of the functionality would have helped a lot. A clone produced in this way would have had problems with each successive release of Apple system software, because they implemented ROM patching in ways that were very dependent on the locations of specific call instructions in the ROMs. In other words, if ROM routine foo is broken, and it calls routine bar via a vector in RAM, foo is patched by intercepting the vector to bar, and having the patch check whether the return address is a precise address within foo. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 28 13:53:36 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ROM BIOS In-Reply-To: <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> References: <200803271800.m2RI09ll070777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EB96A8.5045.5DE71FE@cclist.sydex.com> <47EC1BB8.2080304@pacbell.net> <46949.64.62.206.10.1206660398.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <47EC5DBE.4060900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <44380.64.62.206.10.1206730416.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Suppose you're trying to market a PC clone. How successful will you be > if some piece of popular software for the PC won't run on your clone, > because that software depends on direct calls into the ROM, or direct > access to tables in the ROM (e.g., the character generator)? Back in > those days, *lots* of software did wacky things like that. Jim wrote: > Yes, but *why*? I am getting to be what I consider a pretty decent "Why" doesn't matter. The fact is that if you're a company trying to sell a BIOS to clone makers, and it doesn't work with some even modestly popular software, the clone makers aren't going to buy it. It's a business issue, not a technical issue. You could decry the practice of using unsupported entry points until you were blue in the face, but it wouldn't convince anyone to buy your BIOS. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 28 13:59:27 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reverse-engineering Snap (Panasonic HHC) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0803272032t39601788hffa6e2f5c95a3268@mail.gmail.com> References: <60552.64.62.206.10.1206666186.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4affc5e0803272032t39601788hffa6e2f5c95a3268@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <37794.64.62.206.10.1206730767.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > How difficult would it be to copy a ROM? The bank ROMs are simply > EPROMs with sticky paper labels, I think I could simply erase one and > the reprogram it with a homebuild adapter so as not to damage the > carrier... The EPROMs are most likely Motorola MCM68764, or (slightly less desirable) MCM68766. It should be no problem to erase and reprogram them. The only interesting (IMHO) ROMs you can program into an MC68764 (limited to 8K bytes) are the Microsoft BASIC ROM and the Scientific Calculator ROM. SnapBASIC and SnapFORTH require 16KB, and there are no 16KB EPROMs that will fit the 24-pin carrier. > Is there any information out there on how to program the HHC in 6502 > assembly? memory maps, keyboard and LCD interface, etc... I've been starting to reverse-engineer it, but it's a lot of work. Someone that did some HHC reverse-engineering back in 1981-1982 (due to inadequate documentation from Friends Amis) is sending me his notes, and I should have them in a few days. However, he advises me that since they were just notes to himself, they are probably too cryptic to be very useful. Still, I'm hoping I can tease some information out of them. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 28 14:06:00 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: <200803281726.m2SHQZcf018828@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 28, 2008 10:26:35 AM Message-ID: <200803281906.m2SJ60he018988@onyx.spiritone.com> > > The following eBay seller has a few MMC Replay's and RR-Net's > > available for the Commodore 64. > > > > http://stores.ebay.com/Reds-Retro-Computing-Extravaganza > > > > I've not dealt with this seller before, but I just finished ordering > > mine from him, so should hopefully have it sometime next week. > > He is a very reputable seller and I can personally vouch for him. I noticed he's a moderator on amiga.org, so wasn't too concerned. > I have an MMC64 and it's a really nice unit. I'm looking at an MMC Replay > myself. The MMC Replay looks like a serious upgrade, and in a lot of ways I'm glad I'd not previously purchased the MMC64 or Retro Replay. I don't manage to play with my C64 much anyway, so what little time I've had the past few years has been spent on other upgrades that I've built myself. This will save me the time and money of trying to build a 1541-III, at least for the time being (the 1541-III seems to be a better solution). Zane From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Mar 28 14:16:55 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:16:55 -0400 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: <1C8CF4C4-4F6E-444F-BA8F-181468E3507E@neurotica.com> References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> <47ED1AEB.1040800@nktelco.net> <1C8CF4C4-4F6E-444F-BA8F-181468E3507E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <47ED4427.2050202@nktelco.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 28, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: >> I thought it was cool when I discovered that the embedded processor >> in the RF71 was a VAX. > > It is?? Wow that is VERY cool. Which chip did they use? > > -Dave > :-( I just looked. The drive is actually an RF72... and it has a boring 68HC000 on it. The chip with the neat heatsink on it that I had convinced myself was a VAX, probably isn't. Any disk drive that can give you a command prompt of sorts is still pretty cool though. -chuck From gklinger at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 16:42:09 2008 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:42:09 -0400 Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: <200803281906.m2SJ60he018988@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200803281726.m2SHQZcf018828@floodgap.com> <200803281906.m2SJ60he018988@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: Yeah, he's a good guy. Be forewarned though that many (most) of the plug-ins (read most of the functionality) of the MMC Replay is not going to work with an NTSC 64. With that being said, I'm happy with mine. By the way, if anyone wants to buy an MMC64 and/or a 1541-III (fully assembled), let me know. I have spares of both that I don't need. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 28 17:16:50 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200803282216.m2SMGoPb022802@onyx.spiritone.com> > Yeah, he's a good guy. Be forewarned though that many (most) of the > plug-ins (read most of the functionality) of the MMC Replay is not > going to work with an NTSC 64. With that being said, I'm happy with > mine. Great. :^( That's the first I've heard this. What doesn't work? Zane From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Mar 28 17:50:00 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:50:00 +0000 Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: <47ED4427.2050202@nktelco.net> References: <200803272218.m2RMIW0i008247@onyx.spiritone.com> <000301c8906b$941b32d0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> <47ECF3EB.4010602@mdrconsult.com> <47ED1AEB.1040800@nktelco.net> <1C8CF4C4-4F6E-444F-BA8F-181468E3507E@neurotica.com> <47ED4427.2050202@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <20080328225000.GC32758@usap.gov> On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 03:16:55PM -0400, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >On Mar 28, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > >>I thought it was cool when I discovered that the embedded processor > >>in the RF71 was a VAX. > > > > It is?? Wow that is VERY cool. Which chip did they use? > > I just looked. The drive is actually an RF72... and it has a boring > 68HC000 on it. Hey! That's not so boring - it's a good chip. > Any disk drive that can give you a command prompt of sorts is still > pretty cool though. The oldest one I know of is the RA81, and what's more, I've _used_ the serial port to dignose HDA problems. Very handy. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 28-Mar-2008 at 22:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -66.5 F (-54.7 C) Windchill -106.2 F (-76.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.5 kts Grid 11 Barometer 680.2 mb (10621 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 28 17:52:21 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:52:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF1C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Mar 28, 8 06:21:00 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony > I agree that the concept of originality is important in what we > do. The system I have is original in the sense that all the parts are > from the right era. However the current configuration is not that as > stated on the factory label. You could also say that any item with a If this is the machine I think it is, I know not only the chap you got it from, but also the owner before that. IIRC, it originally had a TU56 (single drive versiun, and no I don't mean a TU55) which is currently on my desk, hooked up to my PDP8/e. And the RX8/e is not original. If you look at one of the CPU logic boards, you'll see one of the chips (I forget what) has been replaced. I did that over 10 years ago to cure a problem with the top 4 data lines in some operation or other. The TU56 was 'payment' for that repair... > date of later than the manufacturing date and not the result of a repair > or upgrade is not original. True, and some museums, alas, take it that way, and refuse to instal replacement parts to keep their machines going, even if said parts are contemporarty with the machine. Personally, I like all my classics to run. However, I also like to use as few spares as possible. If your clock generator was missing, or physically cracked in half, or... then I would agree you need an M8330 board. But if you can get your old one to run again, even by using more modern parts (I would have no problems fitting LS chips if they would work electrically, for example), then I'd rather keep the spare board for somebody who really did need it. > > Thanks for the tip re Cricklewood I will contact them. They may only have LS or something like that. As I said, I needed some 7495s, a rather oscure shift register chip that I couldn't find anywhere. They had 74LS95, which worked fine in my HP9820. OK, not original, but at least I can use the machine again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 28 17:57:47 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:57:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Reverse-engineering Snap (Panasonic HHC) In-Reply-To: <1206691429.13612.1.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Mar 28, 8 08:03:49 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 23:32 -0400, Joachim Thiemann wrote: [HHC ROMs] > > > How difficult would it be to copy a ROM? The bank ROMs are simply > > EPROMs with sticky paper labels, I think I could simply erase one and > > the reprogram it with a homebuild adapter so as not to damage the > > carrier... > > If it's just an ordinary ROM, extremely easy. You just read it, and > blow another. THey are stnadard EPROMs, in that they're not custom chips, but they're nto a particlarly common type. I forget the part number, but they're an 8K*8 chip in a 24 pin DIL package (24 pins = 2 power + 8 data + 13 address + CS/). Not all programmers can handle them. In the HHC, they're fitted into little plastic carriers which then plug into the sockets on the main board. IIRC, they go in 'upside down' -- that is the top face of the package -- the face where the window is -- ends up facing the board. One thing to watch for. The other curiousity is that in the HHC, the CS/ pin is tied to the A13 line. ROM chip select is done by switching the power to the ICs (the 3 ROM sockets are bank=switched into the same bit of the CPU address space). I am told that at least one ROM for the HHC was a 16K one, of course in a 24 pin package but with no CS/ line. I don;t think that was a stnadard chip, though. Oh, and the A12 lins is inverted between the CPU and the ROM socket, just to confuse you if you're creating a ROM image. -tony From gklinger at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 18:12:32 2008 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:12:32 -0400 Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: <200803282216.m2SMGoPb022802@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200803282216.m2SMGoPb022802@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: Zane H. Healy wrote (in reference to the MMC Replay): > What doesn't work? The DFI plug-in (d64 multi-loader which means that multi-load programs are a no-go), Retro Replay NTSC ROM fast load and save, Warp Copy fast d64 write and MMC64 fast d64 read and write. MMC kernal d64 reads and writes do work but are painfully slow. I'm sure the software will improve in time but it seems likely that NTSC support will always lag behind as the software development takes place in PAL-land and the truth of the matter is that they just don't care about NTSC support. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 28 18:08:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:08:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DECServer 500/550 Manuals - PDP 11/53 In-Reply-To: <20080328225000.GC32758@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 28, 8 10:50:00 pm Message-ID: > > Any disk drive that can give you a command prompt of sorts is still > > pretty cool though. > > The oldest one I know of is the RA81, and what's more, I've _used_ the > serial port to dignose HDA problems. Very handy. The R80 (and presumaly the RM80, I don't know aout the RA80) had a little 'front panel' inside on the processor PCB. A couple of thumbwheel switches, a couple of toggle switches, and IIRC 8 LEDs. You could do some interesting diagrnositcs with those, IIRC you oculd even read out any location of the control processor's (8085 I think) address space. -tony From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Mar 28 18:33:17 2008 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:33:17 +0000 Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <200803282216.m2SMGoPb022802@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <0efb14f656a6362ce3714265beca1467@mac.com> I am contemplating buying a MMC2IEC for my SX64.. link here.... http://www.nkcelectronics.com/mmc2iec-commodore-disk-drive-emulation- devic.html anyone with experience of theses?? roger From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 28 19:43:51 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200803290043.m2T0hpKf025470@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane H. Healy wrote (in reference to the MMC Replay): > > > What doesn't work? > > The DFI plug-in (d64 multi-loader which means that multi-load programs > are a no-go), Retro Replay NTSC ROM fast load and save, Warp Copy fast > d64 write and MMC64 fast d64 read and write. MMC kernal d64 reads and > writes do work but are painfully slow. I'm sure the software will > improve in time but it seems likely that NTSC support will always lag > behind as the software development takes place in PAL-land and the > truth of the matter is that they just don't care about NTSC support. So I can use this as a partial replacement for my disk drives, but not a total replacement. :^( At least I can put my Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop in storage, and stop messing with using it to read and write C1541 floppies. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 28 20:14:23 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: <0efb14f656a6362ce3714265beca1467@mac.com> from Roger Pugh at "Mar 28, 8 11:33:17 pm" Message-ID: <200803290114.m2T1ENnt015428@floodgap.com> > I am contemplating buying a MMC2IEC for my SX64.. link here.... > > http://www.nkcelectronics.com/mmc2iec-commodore-disk-drive-emulation-devic.html > > anyone with experience of theses?? I just got mine. I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't Be Evil. -- Paul Buchheit -------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 28 20:47:31 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (offlist) 1541-III In-Reply-To: from Golan Klinger at "Mar 28, 8 05:42:09 pm" Message-ID: <200803290147.m2T1lVdt013184@floodgap.com> > By the way, if anyone wants to buy an MMC64 and/or a 1541-III (fully > assembled), let me know. I have spares of both that I don't need. I'd be interested in the 1541-III. How much are you asking? Is it a 1.1? And do you know the firmware version loaded? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I see nothing! Nothing! -- Sgt. Schultz, "Hogan's Heroes" ------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 28 20:51:13 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (offlist) 1541-III In-Reply-To: <200803290147.m2T1lVdt013184@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Mar 28, 8 06:47:31 pm" Message-ID: <200803290151.m2T1pDns013288@floodgap.com> > > By the way, if anyone wants to buy an MMC64 and/or a 1541-III (fully > > assembled), let me know. I have spares of both that I don't need. > > I'd be interested in the 1541-III. sigh. Trying again. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Reality is when it finally happens to you, too. ---------------------------- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 28 22:01:48 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803290305.XAA04008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Now I need either a couple of 74194's or an M8330 board. > I don;t know if they have them, but have you tried Cricklewood > Electronics? They had some 74(LS)95 chips when I needed them to > repair an old HP machine, and seem to be the only place that did. Maybe worth considering if you have trouble finding TTL '194s is the possibility that one of the CMOS logic families might do. Depending on the surrounding circuitry, you may be able to use a 74ALS194 or 74HCT194 or maybe even a 74HC194 or some such instead of a real 74194. Of course, depending on how non-original you're willing to be.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 28 22:22:10 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:22:10 -0600 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <200803290305.XAA04008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200803290305.XAA04008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > Of course, depending on how non-original you're willing to be.... A 74F194 would be a better replacement I suspect over a 74194. Now does a persion here have a list of common replacement parts and rare parts. This 2008 and I don't expect spares to around much longer. > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > . > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 28 22:27:51 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:27:51 -0600 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803290305.XAA04008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47EDB737.9060004@jetnet.ab.ca> woodelf wrote: > A 74F194 would be a better replacement I suspect over a 74194. > Now does a persion here have a list of common replacement parts > and rare parts. This 2008 and I don't expect spares *are* to be around much longer. > From brain at jbrain.com Fri Mar 28 23:12:00 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:12:00 -0500 Subject: MMC Replay and RR-Net for C-64 In-Reply-To: <0efb14f656a6362ce3714265beca1467@mac.com> References: <200803282216.m2SMGoPb022802@onyx.spiritone.com> <0efb14f656a6362ce3714265beca1467@mac.com> Message-ID: <47EDC190.8060705@jbrain.com> Roger Pugh wrote: > I am contemplating buying a MMC2IEC for my SX64.. link here.... > > http://www.nkcelectronics.com/mmc2iec-commodore-disk-drive-emulation-devic.html > > > anyone with experience of theses?? > > > > > roger If you can wait, I would hold off for a better NKC version. The NKC hardware is OK, but it has a few problems in the PCB layout, and it has upgrade problems (the uC is too small). THe author is on the PETSCII forums and I believe he is considering a new run with a larger uC and a better layout. Regardless of whether you buy a current unit or new one, I would highly recommend you reflash the firmware to, or ask for a preinstalled copy of SD2IEC, which is a new set of firmware that offers a lot of features over the original MMC2IEC firmware (http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/MMC2IEC) In the interest of full disclosure, note that I have recently gotten involved in adding features to the SD2IEC firmware, though most of the features predate my involvement. While resurrecting my uIEC project to finish it (it's an IEC to CF/IDE interface, along the lines of the MMC2IEC), I found the SD2IEC firmware. Initially, I was planning to incorporate some of the neat features of the codebase into my firmware, but the more I learned about it, the more I liked it, so I eventually scrapped my firmware and modified SD2IEC to run on the uIEC hardware. I added long filename support, and helped with multiple partition support. The firmware (and by extension, the hardware) is very capable now. The latest firmware supports up to 2 physical drives, with up to 16 FAT16/32 partitions per drive. It uses the CMD HD syntax for CD/MD/RD commands and other things like partition directories (I added that day before yesterday). Once the SD2IEC firmware has been flashed onto the device and the bootloader installed, one can update their sd2iec-based unit to the newest code just by putting the new firmware on the root directory of the primary card and resetting the unit. Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 28 23:12:44 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:12:44 -0700 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803290305.XAA04008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:22:10 -0600 > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > To: > Subject: Re: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's > > der Mouse wrote: > >> Of course, depending on how non-original you're willing to be.... > > A 74F194 would be a better replacement I suspect over a 74194. > Now does a persion here have a list of common replacement parts > and rare parts. This 2008 and I don't expect spares to around much longer. > > Hi Anchor list 74194, 74LS194, 74S194, 74HC194 and 74F194. They also have 7495s. SO, what is the problem? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 29 00:06:15 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:06:15 -0600 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: References: <200803290305.XAA04008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47EDCE47.4080306@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > Anchor list 74194, 74LS194, 74S194, 74HC194 and 74F194. They also > have 7495s. > SO, what is the problem? > Dwight So for how long. At least unicorn has a '*' beside the TTL that is no longer manufactured. That is a good chunk of them. From ccrodie at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 28 07:43:05 2008 From: ccrodie at bellsouth.net (Chris Rodie) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:43:05 -0400 Subject: Need MK3801 datasheet In-Reply-To: <200803280745.m2S7jUJm079373@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803280745.m2S7jUJm079373@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47ECE7D9.3060102@bellsouth.net> > > Chris Rodie wrote: > > Does anyone out there have a datasheet and/or programming info > > (register addressing scheme) for the Mostek MK3801 multi-function I/O > > device (a Z80 peripheral)? I can't find one anywhere. (Info for > > MK68901 and other "derivatives" is available, but these devices are > > apparently not clones.) Any help much appreciated. > > > > Chris R. > > > > > I have MOSTEK 1982/1983 Microelectronic Data Book that has 15 pages on > the MK3801. Would scanning that help you? Do you need everything or > > just part - takes time to scan of course... > > John :-#)# John, Many thanks for the offer. If you would scan just the pages with the register set description that would be sufficient. Chris R. From ccrodie at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 28 13:10:00 2008 From: ccrodie at bellsouth.net (Chris Rodie) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:10:00 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 55, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: <200803281801.m2SI0vHb085288@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803281801.m2SI0vHb085288@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47ED3478.8010907@bellsouth.net> > >Does anyone out there have a datasheet and/or programming info (register > >addressing scheme) for the Mostek MK3801 multi-function I/O device (a > >Z80 peripheral)? I can't find one anywhere. (Info for MK68901 and > >other "derivatives" is available, but these devices are apparently not > >clones.) Any help much appreciated. > >Chris R. > ------ > You're not thinking of the MK3881 by any chance? I've sure misread 8s > & 0s > a few times... > > mike No, it's really an MK3801 that's of interest. Thanks for asking. Chris R. From a-kelavkar1 at ti.com Fri Mar 28 16:22:13 2008 From: a-kelavkar1 at ti.com (Kelavkar, Abhijit) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:22:13 -0500 Subject: Looking for info on VT284 and VT286 Message-ID: <61D52E9E907C3E45B1BDF24F95D8A48E85F078@dlee16.ent.ti.com> Sir, Do you VT286 units in stock? Price? Thanks, Abhi Texas Instruments (Houston) 281-274-2917 From wendywally at msn.com Fri Mar 28 20:37:13 2008 From: wendywally at msn.com (WALLY SMITH) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:37:13 -0500 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? Message-ID: HI, I see your posting from over a year ago. My dad has a Compugraphic Editwriter from 1978? that he wants to sell or a very nominal price. Do you have any idea where I can start looking for an interested party? Thanks Wendy From jeffj at panix.com Fri Mar 28 21:22:43 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Plan 9, GNOT, 5620 terminals In-Reply-To: <200803281801.m2SI0vHf085288@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803281801.m2SI0vHf085288@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:56:51 -0400 > From: "John Floren" > Subject: Re: Research Unix v9, v10 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <7d3530220803272356j78f3f724ne5f10c37d32cb587 at mail.gmail.com> > I already have VMS on my Alpha and the VAX; if I can't get Research > Unix on the VAX, I'll stay with VMS. The later additions to Research > Unix evolved in some interesting directions which eventually led to > Plan 9, the OS I develop for at work. Are you also using Inferno and Limbo? The last I knew, Rob Pike was still active with Plan 9. Can't you ask him directly since any Plan 9 user ought to be a "close personal friend of ..." :-) Or is all that gone with the Alcatel merger? I never got to touch Plan 9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs It was ramping up just as AT&T IS was ramping down. I adored the names of all the BAD movies and the mascot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenda,_the_Plan_9_Bunny Glenda is the mascot of the distributed operating system Plan 9 from Bell Labs. It was drawn by Renee French ... As Plan 9 is named after the Ed Wood film Plan 9 from Outer Space, Glenda is named after Wood's film Glen or Glenda. I was curious about the "Aleph" language but that was dropped long ago. I agree for the need to better express parallelism in programming instead of just inlines and libraries for threads. > I'd love to find a Blit (AT&T/Teletype model 5620) terminal > and a VAX capable of running v10; that was a brilliant system. In the late 80s while working on Unix developement at AT&T IS (information systems), the porting base for SVR4.0 was a 3b2/400 (desktop size) and the 5620. But later terminals were better. Citing http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/att/5620/5620_faq.html The successor to the 5620 was the 630 which came out 1987. The processor changed back to the Motorola 68000 which the developers had wanted all along. Most of the 630 monitors were amber, although white and green monitors were also available. The monitors had a non-interlaced 1024x1024 pixels and did not have slow phosphors. A second RS232 port was included with optional SSI (3270 connectivity) and 512K RAM cards. In 1989 new firmware for the 630 came out and the name was changed to the 730. This firmware supported 3 RS232 ports, LAN cards, built-in 4014 emulator, and enhanced PF-keys. Options to the 730 included the SSI card (which added the 3rd RS-232 port), ISO and TCP LAN cards, and an X-cartridge. The LAN cards supported from 512K to 4Meg of RAM. In 1990, the 730+ came out with a faster 68000, more EPROM space and RAM was moved from the LAN card to the main controller. In 1991, ISDN connectivity was provided to AT&T Bell Labs. Meanwhile, AT&T research came out with a totally new motherboard controller card using the 630 monitor with totally new software (Plan 9) and called it a GNOT. It had a Motorola 68030 as the main processor. What I'm trying to say is that the newer terminals ought to be more desirable since they use parts that you can probably still get and emulate. The 5620 was based on the AT&T WE32000 CPU, which was fun to use at the time (the heart of the companion 3b2) but I fear there's no support for it anymore. A friend has a 5620 but not the games and toolkits (since TOAD is gone: the AT&T toolchest of unsupported software). The windowing software used the "layers" serial line protocol which will also be hard to re-create. Sigh: it was fun running programs that downloaded into the terminal (cip: drawing program for PIC, GEBACA: Get Back At Corporate America: a game where you shoot corporate logos, the clock-of-all-nations with builtin printer driver and keyboard lock ...) If you succeeded in crashing the 5620's monitor, you got a mushroom shaped cloud with the panic message. I still have some of the red dome 5620 bus-mice because they were truly the most comfy mice ever made. I suddenly have renewed interest in making a USB adapter for it. I found the 5620 web page from: http://fixunix.com/plan9/241581-9fans-blit-gnot-portrait-monitors.html > John > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ^^^^^^^^^ If u cn rd ths u cn gt a gd jb in hll ? From trebor72 at execpc.com Sat Mar 29 07:46:59 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:46:59 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a NEC APC Message-ID: <47EE3A43.40607@execpc.com> I got my NEC APC running and was able to create a floppy that boots with Seattle Dos 2.0 on it. Most of the Programs seem to run. But if they don't then I overlay them with the ones from my MS-DOS 2.0. Strangly the dates on both Systems are really close; Late 1982 for the MS-DOS and early 1983 for SCP-DOS Got to figure out how to put a Boot for my CompuPro 816 on a floppy so I can boot to Dos on the CompuPro I may need a replacement 8" drive for one of my Two APC's TIA Bob in Wisconsin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 29 09:37:10 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:37:10 -0700 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <47EDCE47.4080306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803290305.XAA04008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> <47EDCE47.4080306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:06:15 -0600 > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > To: > Subject: Re: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's > > dwight elvey wrote: >> >> Hi >> Anchor list 74194, 74LS194, 74S194, 74HC194 and 74F194. They also >> have 7495s. >> SO, what is the problem? >> Dwight > > So for how long. At least unicorn has a '*' beside the TTL > that is no longer manufactured. That is a good chunk of them. > Hi The time may come that these part become hard to get but unless someone burns down places like Anchor and Unicorn, they'll be there for some time. My point is that most of these are still available. The fellow that needs one can still buy the correct replacement. Since both companies sell NOS parts, one might even get a good date code. I expect that someday, the supply will run dry. There are a few parts that are already getting hard to find. 74S38 are one of them. The ones that are really bad are the custom parts. The ROM chip for the KIM is a good example. I have a board that is waiting for a bus inteface chip. I watch but don't have a lot of hope. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Test your Star IQ http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 29 09:44:44 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:44:44 -0700 Subject: Bunch of stuff in Sidney In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080316174920.083b1758@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080316174920.083b1758@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: Hi Check The Vintage Computer Forum. I saw this posted: Hi all, I have a mix of CP/M hardware, software, and documentation, as well some PDP/LSI 11 HW & books. Some S-100 HW. Boxes of used and some unused 8" floppy disks. I need to clear out my garage for demolition, and would prefer not to have to take it all to the tip or metal recyclers, so if any one is interested I would like to know. I am in Western Sydney, Australia. It would be nice to see someone make use of some of it. Michael _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V3 From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 29 09:44:43 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 14:44:43 +0000 Subject: Plan 9, GNOT, 5620 terminals Message-ID: <032920081444.24383.47EE55DA000F3E0400005F3F22243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: Jeff Jonas > > From: "John Floren" > > > I already have VMS on my Alpha and the VAX; if I can't get Research > > Unix on the VAX, I'll stay with VMS. The later additions to Research > > Unix evolved in some interesting directions which eventually led to > > Plan 9, the OS I develop for at work. > > Are you also using Inferno and Limbo? > The last I knew, Rob Pike was still active with Plan 9. > Can't you ask him directly since any Plan 9 user > ought to be a "close personal friend of ..." :-) > Or is all that gone with the Alcatel merger? You might want to check out the 9fans mailing list. There also one for inferno, though you'll see some inferno discussion on 9fans too. You can get to them at: 9fans-request at 9fans.net (used to be 9fans-request at cse.psu.edu) inferno-list-request at vitanuova.com As to the people, Rob, and some of the others, are at Google now. They still frequent the list, but aren't actively involved anymore. On the other hand, there are several who are still involved as well as a small, but strong community. And no, we're not all close personal friends. In fact, I haven't even met any of them. Before his retirement, Dennis was on the list and he would probably have a pretty good idea if any of the 8th-10th editions were still around. At least in the fall, he still had his office at BellLabs but I don't know if his email address there still works. BLS From slawmaster at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 10:26:44 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:26:44 -0400 Subject: Plan 9, GNOT, 5620 terminals In-Reply-To: References: <200803281801.m2SI0vHf085288@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7d3530220803290826k10333010v9498afbf6eb99af4@mail.gmail.com> On 3/28/08, Jeff Jonas wrote: > > I already have VMS on my Alpha and the VAX; if I can't get Research > > Unix on the VAX, I'll stay with VMS. The later additions to Research > > Unix evolved in some interesting directions which eventually led to > > Plan 9, the OS I develop for at work. > > Are you also using Inferno and Limbo? > The last I knew, Rob Pike was still active with Plan 9. > Can't you ask him directly since any Plan 9 user > ought to be a "close personal friend of ..." :-) > Or is all that gone with the Alcatel merger? As Brian says in his reply (hi Brian!), Rob is at Google and I haven't had much contact with him, However, I spent last week working with Charles Forsyth (of Vita Nuova, makers of Inferno) and Jim McKie (Plan 9 developer at Bell Labs), so I do know some of the Masters ;) I have Inferno installed on all my computers but I don't use it much. Haven't written a line of Limbo yet, but I intend to get around to that eventually. > I never got to touch Plan 9 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs > It was ramping up just as AT&T IS was ramping down. > I adored the names of all the BAD movies and the mascot: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenda,_the_Plan_9_Bunny > Glenda is the mascot of the distributed operating system > Plan 9 from Bell Labs. It was drawn by Renee French ... > As Plan 9 is named after the Ed Wood film Plan 9 from Outer Space, > Glenda is named after Wood's film Glen or Glenda. > > I was curious about the "Aleph" language but that was dropped long ago. > I agree for the need to better express parallelism in programming > instead of just inlines and libraries for threads. Yeah, I was a little surprised to hear that a lot of Plan 9 was originally in Alef and was only (relatively) recently converted to C. > > > I'd love to find a Blit (AT&T/Teletype model 5620) terminal > > and a VAX capable of running v10; that was a brilliant system. > > In the late 80s while working on Unix developement at > AT&T IS (information systems), the porting base for SVR4.0 > was a 3b2/400 (desktop size) and the 5620. > But later terminals were better. > Citing > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/att/5620/5620_faq.html > > The successor to the 5620 was the 630 which came out 1987. > The processor changed back to the Motorola 68000 > which the developers had wanted all along. > Most of the 630 monitors were amber, > although white and green monitors were also available. > The monitors had a non-interlaced 1024x1024 pixels > and did not have slow phosphors. A second RS232 port was included > with optional SSI (3270 connectivity) and 512K RAM cards. > > In 1989 new firmware for the 630 came out > and the name was changed to the 730. > This firmware supported 3 RS232 ports, LAN cards, built-in 4014 emulator, > and enhanced PF-keys. Options to the 730 included the SSI card > (which added the 3rd RS-232 port), ISO and TCP LAN cards, > and an X-cartridge. The LAN cards supported from 512K to 4Meg of RAM. > In 1990, the 730+ came out with a faster 68000, > more EPROM space and RAM was moved from the LAN card to the main controller. > In 1991, ISDN connectivity was provided to AT&T Bell Labs. > > Meanwhile, AT&T research came out with a totally new > motherboard controller card using the 630 monitor > with totally new software (Plan 9) and called it a GNOT. > It had a Motorola 68030 as the main processor. > > > What I'm trying to say is that the newer terminals ought to be > more desirable since they use parts that you can probably still get > and emulate. The 5620 was based on the AT&T WE32000 CPU, > which was fun to use at the time (the heart of the companion 3b2) > but I fear there's no support for it anymore. > > A friend has a 5620 but not the games and toolkits > (since TOAD is gone: the AT&T toolchest of unsupported software). > The windowing software used the "layers" serial line protocol > which will also be hard to re-create. > Sigh: it was fun running programs that downloaded into the terminal > (cip: drawing program for PIC, > GEBACA: Get Back At Corporate America: a game where you shoot corporate logos, > the clock-of-all-nations with builtin printer driver and keyboard lock ...) > If you succeeded in crashing the 5620's monitor, > you got a mushroom shaped cloud with the panic message. > > I still have some of the red dome 5620 bus-mice > because they were truly the most comfy mice ever made. > I suddenly have renewed interest in making a USB adapter for it. > > I found the 5620 web page from: > http://fixunix.com/plan9/241581-9fans-blit-gnot-portrait-monitors.html > Well, I'd be happy to get a Gnot too, I even saw one when I visited Bell Labs (got to play with the red mouse too), but the Blit has more charm to it. The monochrome screen, the portrait orientation... just fun. Anybody who hasn't seen the 1982 video introducing the Blit, check out http://herpolhode.com/rob/movies/blit.mpg John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 29 11:49:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:49:28 -0700 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <200803291439.m2TEd1gc096082@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803291439.m2TEd1gc096082@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47EE10A8.16480.1101CC@cclist.sydex.com> Dwight wrote: > I expect that someday, the supply will run dry. There are a few > parts that are already getting hard to find. 74S38 are one of them. > The ones that are really bad are the custom parts. The ROM chip > for the KIM is a good example. > I have a board that is waiting for a bus inteface chip. I watch > but don't have a lot of hope. One can still find UV-201 tubes/valves for sale. I expect to be fertilizer by the time that the world's source of TTL runs dry. But even now, SMT and programmable logic has progressed far enough that some sort of accommodation can be made if one wants to mount components on DIP-sized PCBs. The problems that I see are with the very special-purpose chips whose function and pinout aren't well understood. If you know what should be in a ROM, for example, there should be no problem cobbling something up that will work. The problem arises when you don't know what the contents are--and the ROM goes bad. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 29 12:08:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:08:01 -0700 Subject: GRIDSCAN Message-ID: <47EE1501.4846.21FEBF@cclist.sydex.com> I was cleaning some bookshelves in my office and discovered a 3.5" DS2D diskette with the diagnostic program GRIDSCAN (for early-ish Grid laptops). If anyone wants it, I've posted a self-extracting diskette image at: http://www.sydex.com/temp/gridscan.exe I'll leave it up for a week or so. Thanks, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 29 15:56:07 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200803290305.XAA04008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <56827.68.121.162.227.1206824167.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> woodelf wrote: > A 74F194 would be a better replacement I suspect over a 74194. If a machine was designed for a 74194, a 74F194 will at best be an adequate replacement, but it won't be better. The 74F194 is faster, but that isn't necessarily an improvement. As part of being faster, it has faster edge (slew) rates on its outputs, which can cause problems. It also draws higher transient currents. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 29 16:39:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:39:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <47EDB5E2.6050508@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 28, 8 09:22:10 pm Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: [Using other logic families] > > > Of course, depending on how non-original you're willing to be.... There are problems, of course, when either the original chip never existed in a different logic family, or when it has significantly different pinouts or even characteristics. Certainly some 74Lxx numbers are different to the 74LSxx part of the same number, and I think there's one chip in the 7470-ish area) that has rather different functions in 2 logic families (I can look it up if you like). This doesn't apply to the '194 AFAIK. It has made life 'interesting' for me, though. I prefer, of course, to keep the original family, but I'd rather fit a substitute than have a non-working machine. Computers are not there to look nice on the shelf :-) -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 00:10:49 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:10:49 -0500 Subject: Plan 9, GNOT, 5620 terminals In-Reply-To: <7d3530220803290826k10333010v9498afbf6eb99af4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200803281801.m2SI0vHf085288@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7d3530220803290826k10333010v9498afbf6eb99af4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730803292210k7961621ei596aff7082409c7@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 10:26 AM, John Floren wrote: > Well, I'd be happy to get a Gnot too, I even saw one when I visited > Bell Labs (got to play with the red mouse too), but the Blit has more > charm to it. The monochrome screen, the portrait orientation... just > fun. Anybody who hasn't seen the 1982 video introducing the Blit, > check out http://herpolhode.com/rob/movies/blit.mpg Way cool! I had never seen or heard of this video. I've got a 5620 that came along with the 3B2/300 I picked up a year or so back. It thankfully had the keyboard and wild red mouse too. The terminal works, although the mouse doesn't track very well. Love those microswitches in the buttons! Sadly the 3B2's hard drive is near death so it's not yet a working machine. It did spin up long enough *once* to see Unix booting on the 5620, but not long enough to see Layers in action. I did get to see that on SDF's term at VCF last year, however: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/1971533476/in/set-72157603093681411/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 10:53:04 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a NEC APC In-Reply-To: <47EE3A43.40607@execpc.com> Message-ID: <492893.16798.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have 2. I haven't played with either yet. I was working on an adapter/cable to connect one of it's 8" drives to a modernish pc. I never finished. I could (and did begin the project) simply doing it by hand (with a ruler) but it would be useful to have a program whereby you can - with some degree of precision - print out a bar chart with the ability to specify the thickness of the bars and the distance apart. This way you could take that and reduce it on a copy machine. Any clues?... Sorry don't have any drives to spare. Don't think my disks are worth a lot either, haven't managed to boot off any of them. This too is a bummer, because one of my units has a rare card along with a set of 5 1/4" drives (external) and the driver software is on one of them. Butler Flats Associates was the vendor. Dave Dunfield has a few items on his site. He's currently working on archiving all the rest of what he's got - aren't ya Dave? ;) --- "Robert J. Stevens" wrote: > I got my NEC APC running and was able to create a > floppy that boots with > Seattle Dos 2.0 on it. Most of the Programs seem to > run. But if they > don't then I overlay them with the ones from my > MS-DOS 2.0. Strangly > the dates on both Systems are really close; Late > 1982 for the MS-DOS and > early 1983 for SCP-DOS > Got to figure out how to put a Boot for my CompuPro > 816 on a floppy so I > can boot to Dos on the CompuPro > I may need a replacement 8" drive for one of my Two > APC's > TIA > Bob in Wisconsin > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 29 11:45:28 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC H03 APC III In-Reply-To: <000601c88b4b$ac6fb830$6501a8c0@homeeb7b058f31> Message-ID: <286035.11355.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> the APC III was a run-of-the-mill (appearance wise) desktop pc. It had 5 1/4" floppies built in. I think you must be referring to the APC, an earlier model. I don't have parts for you, sorry, though I do have 2 of these. You might want to look into acquiring a substitute replacement. An original will be tough to find. I know of one bloke in Australia with a III, and another in New Zealand, but don't know of anyone over there with an original APC. They're probably as common, if not more so, then they were over here in the US. Good luck. I'm surprised to learn that there were early CNC warez for that line. What type of machine are you running? --- Vaughan Karin Sage wrote: > Hi, I have an old NEC H03 APC III that has the > inbuilt twin 8"floppies & colour screen. I have > blown the High Tension transformer on the board to > the left of the VDU. Wondering if anyone has parts > for this old beastie. I used it to run EZCAM for > 2axis CNC machining & would love to get it going > again. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 30 13:37:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:37:40 -0700 Subject: NEC APC III In-Reply-To: <200803301800.m2UI0U09008729@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803301800.m2UI0U09008729@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47EF7B84.7024.3662859@cclist.sydex.com> > --- Vaughan Karin Sage wrote: > > Hi, I have an old NEC H03 APC III that has the > inbuilt twin 8"floppies & colour screen. I have > blown the High Tension transformer on the board to > the left of the VDU. Wondering if anyone has parts > for this old beastie. I used it to run EZCAM for > 2axis CNC machining & would love to get it going > again. The APC was part of the NEC PC98 series of machines, which are fairly compatible from the first (1980s) to the last (ca. 2000) members of the series. Technically, a better platform than the IBM PC series and marketed under varioius export model numbers, such as N5220. But sill the venerable PC 9801 under the badge. PC 98 was hugely popular in Japan, holding the majority of the market for the 80s and much of the 1990s. A note to one of the Japanese PC98 user groups should get you what you need. Members of this family are still in use for various industrial uses; lots of manufacturers, such as Mitubishi used them as controllers for their iron (I see a LOT of Mitsubishi EDM disks here). I'd expect to see a higher prevalence of PC 9801 series gear in Oz than in the USA, for example, simply due to geographic proximity. Failing rehabilitation of your old system, there are several decent 9801 emulators that run under Windoze that you might try to get your software running. Cheers, Chuck From belray1 at aol.com Sun Mar 30 12:14:52 2008 From: belray1 at aol.com (belray1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:14:52 -0400 Subject: cashtrac.exe ??? Message-ID: <8CA60A0B3BF0295-16EC-47CA@webmail-nf13.sim.aol.com> Hi, I just say your message from 2004 about cashtrac. ?I have been using this great program for over twenty years and I would love to make it work with XP but I have no idea how to do it. ?When you say 95 dos box, what do you mean? ?Is there some way I can make my xp program work like 95 dos? If you have time to respond please do so to; Belray1 at aol.com and put cashtrac in the subject line so I do not spam your response. Thanks,? Gary Fetter From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Mar 30 16:06:51 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:06:51 -0400 Subject: pdp-8/l switch handles? Message-ID: <17178.1206911211@mini> I'm sure this has been hashed over 100 times, but I'm curious (and please set me straight - or laugh!) If I wanted to find 4-5 of the nice plastic "switch handles" used on the front panel of a PDP-8/L, is there any hope of finding them? I'm only missing about 5 (I think). I know someone was making them from scratch, but is that the only way? Does anyone have a handful they's like to sell? (I need to figure out which colors I need, I know) go ahead, chuckle away, but i had to ask... -brad From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 17:18:59 2008 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:18:59 -0400 Subject: Free microvax 3800 available in Cleveland Ohio, USA Message-ID: Hello people, I am dumping my small collection. If anybody is interested and is able to pick it up, you are welcome to get it. I do not ship or store. It was a complete microvax 3800 (upgraded to 3900) but I took the KA655 to fix my barebone 3900. You get the computer with RA7? DISK, DSSI disk controller, memory, ethernet card, tape card and tape drive. Plug in a KA655 and it is ready to go. If nobody is willing to take it, I will take it apart and sell the components to cover my time. vax9000 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 17:23:19 2008 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:23:19 -0400 Subject: PDP11-04 available in Cleveland, Ohio, USA for $100 Message-ID: This machine is not mine, which has been mine for a while. Somebody bought it but left it in my basement for the last two years. I can't store it for him any more, but his email stopped working and I can not find him. I sell it with the price he bought it from me, in case that he comes to me for it in the future. You are expected to pick it up. Otherwise you must arrange shipment. vax, 9000 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 20:53:47 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:53:47 -0500 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <47EE10A8.16480.1101CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200803291439.m2TEd1gc096082@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47EE10A8.16480.1101CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > One can still find UV-201 tubes/valves for sale. Yes, I bought one yesterday at Timonium from the big truck full of junk at the gate. Not a 201A, A UV-201 BBT. People that worry about a shortage of 74xx TTL need to get a grip. Or get off their ass. -- Will From tsw-cc at johana.com Mon Mar 31 02:28:40 2008 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A simple request? Message-ID: <697263.22927.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lots of people mention devices (of all types) that are in some state of transfer (for sale, for a good home, need help in moving, etc.). While I appreciate all of these informative descriptions, I am loathe to respond since I don't know if I could be of any help due to distance. I would like to recommend that those requesting assistance mention their locale. We here in the USA have these nice devices called ZIP codes which are quite helpful. In other parts of the world, similar postal codes exist, and along with a country would indicate to the casual reader (like me) as to what level of participation they could achieve. Basically I don't have a need to respond to a request for assistance for moving a large piece of equipment that is 3000 miles from my home. Thanks. ____________________________________________________________________________________ OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends:Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text2.com From pichotjm at free.fr Sun Mar 30 13:20:57 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:20:57 +0200 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) Message-ID: <019601c89292$ccdaf000$2601a8c0@JM3800> | > ECN: Engineering change notice. Indicates revision of PCB.| | Thanks, I did not realise you had already translated it to English.| >| > The ODP-505 is a pure binary machine, not designed for arithmetics,| > statistical purposes or BCD computations.It is a real time (!!!) | > computer.| > Get some datas (voltages, frequencies, switch states, motor speed,| > temperature...) compare to thresholds or values, and speed up / | > slow down| > motor, or move a cadmium bar (?) in a nuclear reactor...| | I see. The Elliott machines were the same (but not the ICT1301), | keeping the gun of a tank level and aimed in the right direction, | accepting data from gyros and inertial sensors and tracking the | position and orientation of an aircraft or ship, cross checking with | compasses and other navigational systems, analysing sonar data and | tracking enemy submarines etc. I think we are right. I never worked with this machine, so i do expectations (with my good knowlegde of micro-processing) | By the time of the 920ATC we even used | a special real time programming language called Coral66, based on | Algol60 syntax but with cut down semantics to give highly efficient | run times. Before that everything was done in assembler (called | S.I.R.) or machine code.I have no information about software. I don't know if they had even an assembleror if they do the job with a pencil and a rubber. (as i explain in my IBM 650 section)Have a look there: http://pichotjm.free.fr/IBM650/fileUS.html| >> | The architecture of your machine reminds me of the first machine I| >> | was allowed to operate. It was an 18 bit binary machine, it had | >> 8k of| >> | memory built in, expandable with external modules and was made | >> by the| >> | Airborne Computing Division (ACD) of Elliotts, it was an Elliott | >> 920B| >> | and was a compact, flyable version of the commercial Elliott 903.| >> | There had been an earlier model 920A which I think would have been| >> | Germanium and was roughly the size and shape of a carpenters work| >> | bench. This may have been contemporary with your earlier machine I| >> | think. Unfortunately I never saw one in the flesh, but there was a| >> | bench in the computer room which I found out later, was the empty| >> | chassis of a 920A. Behind the bench was a large panel full of| >> | electrical 'chocolate strip' connectors where the analogue and| >> | digital input and output signals of the 920A could be connected up.| >> | Apparently some of the analogue outputs had been connected up to an| >> | oscilloscope to provide a visual display unit, though it used a | >> fair| >> | bit of processor time to keep it refreshed, even with the long| >> | persistence phosphor of an oscilloscope. The panel had been covered| >> | with board with pegs to hold mylar paper tapes and until the day it| >> | was scrapped I had not seen what was behind it.| | > Very interesting!There are some video connector in the earlier | > machine and| > the Serel companywas specialized in high tech video solutions.| | Possible application for computers in video back then were | superimposing images and standards conversion and just possibly | titling and graphics.You seem to have not browsed completly my website. I show about 200 beautiful photos describing these kinds of applications. We did superimposing images and standards conversion for ship, nuclear plants,helicopters test, meteo ... have a look there http://pichotjm.free.fr/Techno73/Techno73.htmlI have not translated the pages (need time) but if you click on every linksyou will see these beautiful pictures i have taken in the 'Le Bourget' aeronautic international fair in 1973.I have no returns about these publishings, so i am not very encoraged to translate them... If you want I will try to take time.I just verify it's translated! http://pichotjm.free.fr/Techno73/Techno73US.html(probably badly, but sufficient) | > I have read| > somewhere in docs, thatthis computer have a screen output...| | If it has two or preferably three digital to analogue converters then | a vector display is fairly easy, but maybe it was more complex than | that, and you only need one digital to analogue converter for a | raster display, provided you have enough CPU power to both drive the | display in real time and do any processing required as well.| | I should explain what I said about two or three A/D converter, you | have one to drive the X plate and one for the Y, ideally one for the | brightness (Z), but with a fast enough converter, you can deflect the | beam so fast so it will not mark the screen significantly and so no | need to turn the beam off before moving to the next item to be | displayed.I have a picture of the display terminal for the earlier one: http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Notices/Serel%20computer%20dept/img_3673.htmlThe following english page indicates 'Oscilloscopic characters display' | > I have found,| > last week a small notice describing microprogramming on| > ODP-505.http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/ODP505/MicroProgrammation/ | > MicroProgrammation.html(doc| > found in photomultiplier doc!)I have found commercial document | > describing| > displays and analog memories...I don't know the date... (1970?) I | > have to| > study these documents...| | I had a look but my understanding of French is terrible, and | technical details in French are even more difficult.Do you know how I am tired after a translation to publish in english? ...| >> I have a| >> earlier machine from the same company SEREL, named OA-1001. Built in| >> 1959/1960.I need to restore it. It lays on the floor (horizontal| >> position)... The blue one| >> here:http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Photos/Photos.htmlI will start| >> restoring| >> next month (with the Sun!)| >| > | What is involved in the restoration? Do you intend to make it work,| > | this would be very hard without the schematics.| | | > As you know, i am alone,| > here. I want to make an esthetic restoration:Photos and notes, | > dismantle,| > photos and notes, wash, dry, fix the rust, protect with Rustol, | > photos an| > reassemble. I hope to be capable to do that... may be one year, may be| > two...| | As I understand it, that is what the big museums call preservation. | There has been a lot of discussion of the relative merits of | preservation and restoration. Restoration is what they call it when | we return a computer to running condition, preferably so it can be | demonstrated. There is some truth that restoring a computer always | destroys some of the original and that preservation is, to the | purist, a better thing to do. I know... but i can use a bad english word... It's why i precised esthetic!| As I have two 1301s, I have the luxury | of being able to restore one and preserve the other, but restoration | is a lot more enjoyable to me.May be, but i know the time needed. And I have many projects for the future.I don't used to watch back. I prefer future [i intend to live in! ;-) ]I do a lot of program in television, compression, splitting, ECC, FTP, transmission...(I have a son living in the USA, so he can watch french TV in broadcast quality... chutt!)| The other thing of course is simulation. This can be done at various | levels, simple simulation of the instruction set, more complex | simulation at gate level and in theory the ultimate would be to have | a 3D model of the computer you could walk around and inspect the | inside of, and attach a virtual oscilloscope to and watch the | analogue signal levels and be able to do hardware patches and have | simulated hardware faults and diagnose and repair them whilst the | lights and switches all worked like the real thing and the sounds and | 3D models of the peripherals would also be like the real thing. Maybe | I'd leave out the sound of a card deck being mangled and thrown into | the air by the card reader though.Yes i know all these kinds of technics... and can do the work (not 3D)It would probably be better to spend his time in creating a special software to do reverse engineering, (and more exciting for me) with a mixt of taking photos, and piloting schematics and routing simultaneously...| >| > May be some reverse engineering to get 2 or 3 schematics. (need one | > week for| > a board! I have 2 boards in process...)JM Pichot| | Good, Yes, but i have no courage to finish the task...| are you able to identify the function of each type of board | (such as 'And' gate, Flip-Flop etc)Probably, with the help of my lectures of the sixties...| If not I could perhaps compare with my 1301 schematics and see if | they have any similarities. How difficult is it to identify the power | supply connections?For the small computer, i have to analyse schematics (to be done!)For the earlier, cables are preserved and connected. I have power supplies, so it is allways possible to trace wires... (not really exciting!)| Are you planning on doing schematics for the board interconnections? Not today! or this year. First i plan to preserve the machine and publishphotos.| I imagine this would be very difficult, so probably best not to try.There is no national interest, today, in France, to preserve or studyold machines... It's a huge task. I can not do that... alone.So i will wait (or my sons..) that French speak, make meetings, makereports, ask for money... may be in 20 years. Museums are for paintings, ceramics, statues...I have to be more positive!!!By the way, if you are not still fed up, i spent last days in publishingan analysis about a display terminal designed in 1969, which use 32 TV delay lines as memory! Have a look there: http://pichotjm.free.fr/DisplayDL/DisplayDLus.htmlNote. I have not a perfect english, so i can misuse words. I never intend to be agressive, unpolite or to hurt any body. I wish you a good evening.Jean-Marie PICHOT From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 30 13:46:56 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC APC III In-Reply-To: <47EF7B84.7024.3662859@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <988678.83844.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> dude, I don't see how the original APC or even APC III (even with the Software Library Expander board) could be considered compatible with the later APC IV and beyond. The later ones were truly peecee compatible, the earlier ones were anything but. The APC uses a 7220 for graphics duty, probably the same in the III (can't swear to it though), so right there you're talking a good deal of incompatibility. I think it probably unnecessary, but I'd like the OP to clarify which machine they really have. Sounds like an APC (original). --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > --- Vaughan Karin Sage wrote: > > > > Hi, I have an old NEC H03 APC III that has the > > inbuilt twin 8"floppies & colour screen. I have > > blown the High Tension transformer on the board to > > the left of the VDU. Wondering if anyone has parts > > for this old beastie. I used it to run EZCAM for > > 2axis CNC machining & would love to get it going > > again. > > The APC was part of the NEC PC98 series of machines, > which are fairly > compatible from the first (1980s) to the last (ca. > 2000) members of > the series. Technically, a better platform than the > IBM PC series > and marketed under varioius export model numbers, > such as N5220. But > sill the venerable PC 9801 under the badge. > > PC 98 was hugely popular in Japan, holding the > majority of the market > for the 80s and much of the 1990s. A note to one of > the Japanese > PC98 user groups should get you what you need. > > Members of this family are still in use for various > industrial uses; > lots of manufacturers, such as Mitubishi used them > as controllers for > their iron (I see a LOT of Mitsubishi EDM disks > here). > > I'd expect to see a higher prevalence of PC 9801 > series gear in Oz > than in the USA, for example, simply due to > geographic proximity. > > Failing rehabilitation of your old system, there are > several decent > 9801 emulators that run under Windoze that you might > try to get your > software running. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends:Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text2.com From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Mar 30 14:13:47 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:13:47 +0100 Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF28@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Not only did Cricklewood have them, but they arrived Saturday morning. That effected a partial fix. The timing generator is a string of four bit shift registers clocked with 20Mhz. Various combinations of their outputs are used to set and reset bistables made out of cross coupled 7440's. As the problem I'm fixing is you can't load memory, which is a one shot operation, its slow old work. A spare 8330 would confirm if that's where the problem is and I expect would speed up the repair on the current one. I'll continue with fixing it and keep an eye open for a spare. Getting one from the US would be an option. I also return all systems to working order. Apart from a couple of VT420's with ticking SMPSU's everything I have restored runs. (Three VAX's, Two alphas, a Rainbow 100+, DECMateII, Pro350, Pro380, a DS3100, a VS3100 and assorted LA printers and VT terminals) Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 28 March 2008 22:52 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's > > Hi Tony > I agree that the concept of originality is important in what we do. > The system I have is original in the sense that all the parts are from > the right era. However the current configuration is not that as stated > on the factory label. You could also say that any item with a If this is the machine I think it is, I know not only the chap you got it from, but also the owner before that. IIRC, it originally had a TU56 (single drive versiun, and no I don't mean a TU55) which is currently on my desk, hooked up to my PDP8/e. And the RX8/e is not original. If you look at one of the CPU logic boards, you'll see one of the chips (I forget what) has been replaced. I did that over 10 years ago to cure a problem with the top 4 data lines in some operation or other. The TU56 was 'payment' for that repair... > date of later than the manufacturing date and not the result of a > repair or upgrade is not original. True, and some museums, alas, take it that way, and refuse to instal replacement parts to keep their machines going, even if said parts are contemporarty with the machine. Personally, I like all my classics to run. However, I also like to use as few spares as possible. If your clock generator was missing, or physically cracked in half, or... then I would agree you need an M8330 board. But if you can get your old one to run again, even by using more modern parts (I would have no problems fitting LS chips if they would work electrically, for example), then I'd rather keep the spare board for somebody who really did need it. > > Thanks for the tip re Cricklewood I will contact them. They may only have LS or something like that. As I said, I needed some 7495s, a rather oscure shift register chip that I couldn't find anywhere. They had 74LS95, which worked fine in my HP9820. OK, not original, but at least I can use the machine again. -tony From pichotjm at free.fr Sun Mar 30 16:40:00 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:40:00 +0200 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505(germanium CPU) Same message, but cleaned! References: <019601c89292$ccdaf000$2601a8c0@JM3800> Message-ID: <01a701c892ae$9b288d30$2601a8c0@JM3800> What happen? I dont understand! So to have a readable message, i clean the text. I hope to have done that without mistakes... ----- Original Message ----- From: "pichotjm" To: Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:20 PM Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505(germanium CPU) |> ECN: Engineering change notice. Indicates revision of PCB. ||Thanks, I did not realise you had already translated it to English. |>|> The ODP-505 is a pure binary machine, not designed for arithmetics, |> statistical purposes or BCD computations.It is a real time (!!!) |> computer. |> Get some datas (voltages, frequencies, switch states, motor speed, |> temperature...) compare to thresholds or values, and speed up / |> slow down motor, or move a cadmium bar (?) in a nuclear reactor... | I see. The Elliott machines were the same (but not the ICT1301), | keeping the gun of a tank level and aimed in the right direction, | accepting data from gyros and inertial sensors and tracking the | position and orientation of an aircraft or ship, cross checking with | compasses and other navigational systems, analysing sonar data and | tracking enemy submarines etc. I think we are right. I never worked with this machine, so i do expectations (with my good knowlegde of micro-processing) | By the time of the 920ATC we even used | a special real time programming language called Coral66, based on | Algol60 syntax but with cut down semantics to give highly efficient | run times. Before that everything was done in assembler (called | S.I.R.) or machine code. I have no information about software. I don't know if they had even an assembler or if they do the job with a pencil and a rubber. (as i explain in my IBM 650 section) Have a look there: http://pichotjm.free.fr/IBM650/fileUS.html |>>| The architecture of your machine reminds me of the first machine I |>>| was allowed to operate. It was an 18 bit binary machine, it had |>>| 8k of memory built in, expandable with external modules and was made |>>| by the Airborne Computing Division (ACD) of Elliotts, it was an Elliott |>>| 920B and was a compact, flyable version of the commercial Elliott 903. |>>| There had been an earlier model 920A which I think would have been |>>| Germanium and was roughly the size and shape of a carpenters work |>>| bench. This may have been contemporary with your earlier machine I |>>| think. Unfortunately I never saw one in the flesh, but there was a |>>| bench in the computer room which I found out later, was the empty |>>| chassis of a 920A. Behind the bench was a large panel full of |>>| electrical 'chocolate strip' connectors where the analogue and |>>| digital input and output signals of the 920A could be connected up. |>>| Apparently some of the analogue outputs had been connected up to an |>>| oscilloscope to provide a visual display unit, though it used a |>>| fair bit of processor time to keep it refreshed, even with the long |>>| persistence phosphor of an oscilloscope. The panel had been covered |>>| with board with pegs to hold mylar paper tapes and until the day it |>>| was scrapped I had not seen what was behind it. |> Very interesting!There are some video connector in the earlier |> machine and the Serel company was specialized in high tech video solutions. | Possible application for computers in video back then were | superimposing images and standards conversion and just possibly | titling and graphics. You seem to have not browsed completly my website. I show about 200 beautiful photos describing these kinds of applications. We did superimposing images and standards conversion for ship, nuclear plants, helicopter tests, meteo ... have a look there http://pichotjm.free.fr/Techno73/Techno73.html I have not translated the pages (need time) but if you click on every links you will see these beautiful pictures i have taken in the 'Le Bourget' aeronautic international fair in 1973.I have no returns about these publishings, so i am not very encouraged to translate them... If you want I will try to take time. I just verify it's translated! http://pichotjm.free.fr/Techno73/Techno73US.html (probably badly, but sufficient) |> I have read |> somewhere in docs, that this computer have a screen output... |If it has two or preferably three digital to analogue converters then | a vector display is fairly easy, but maybe it was more complex than | that, and you only need one digital to analogue converter for a | raster display, provided you have enough CPU power to both drive the | display in real time and do any processing required as well. | |I should explain what I said about two or three A/D converter, you | have one to drive the X plate and one for the Y, ideally one for the | brightness (Z), but with a fast enough converter, you can deflect the | beam so fast so it will not mark the screen significantly and so no | need to turn the beam off before moving to the next item to be | displayed. I have a picture of the display terminal for the earlier one: http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Notices/Serel%20computer%20dept/img_3673.html The following english page indicates 'Oscilloscopic characters display' |> I have found, |> last week a small notice describing microprogramming on |> ODP-505.http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/ODP505/MicroProgrammation/ |> MicroProgrammation.html(doc found in photomultiplier doc!)I have found commercial document describing |> displays and analog memories...I don't know the date... (1970?) I |> have to study these documents... | I had a look but my understanding of French is terrible, and | technical details in French are even more difficult. Do you know how I am tired after a translation to publish in english? ... ;-) |>> I have an earlier machine from the same company SEREL, named OA-1001. Built in |>> 1959/1960.I need to restore it. It lays on the floor (horizontal |>> position)... The blue one| |>> here:http://pichotjm.free.fr/Serel/Photos/Photos.htmlI will start |>> restoring|>> next month (with the Sun!) |>| |>| What is involved in the restoration? Do you intend to make it work, |>| this would be very hard without the schematics. |> As you know, i am alone, |> here. I want to make an esthetic restoration:Photos and notes, |> dismantle, photos and notes, wash, dry, fix the rust, protect with Rustol, |> photos and reassemble. I hope to be capable to do that... may be one year, may be |> two... | As I understand it, that is what the big museums call preservation. | There has been a lot of discussion of the relative merits of | preservation and restoration. Restoration is what they call it when | we return a computer to running condition, preferably so it can be | demonstrated. There is some truth that restoring a computer always | destroys some of the original and that preservation is, to the | purist, a better thing to do. I know... but i can use a bad english word... It's why i precised esthetic! | As I have two 1301s, I have the luxury | of being able to restore one and preserve the other, but restoration | is a lot more enjoyable to me. May be, but i know the time needed. And I have many projects for the future.I don't used to watch back. I prefer future [i intend to live in! ;-) ] I do a lot of programs in television, compression, splitting, ECC, FTP, transmission...(I have a son living in the USA, so he can watch french TV in broadcast quality... chutt!) | The other thing of course is simulation. This can be done at various | levels, simple simulation of the instruction set, more complex | simulation at gate level and in theory the ultimate would be to have | a 3D model of the computer you could walk around and inspect the | inside of, and attach a virtual oscilloscope to and watch the | analogue signal levels and be able to do hardware patches and have | simulated hardware faults and diagnose and repair them whilst the | lights and switches all worked like the real thing and the sounds and | 3D models of the peripherals would also be like the real thing. Maybe | I'd leave out the sound of a card deck being mangled and thrown into | the air by the card reader though. Yes i know all these kinds of technics... and can do the work (not 3D) It would probably be better to spend his time in creating a special software to do reverse engineering, (and more exciting for me) with a mixt of taking photos, and piloting schematics and routing simultaneously... |> May be some reverse engineering to get 2 or 3 schematics. (need one |> week for a board! I have 2 boards in process...)JM Pichot |Good, Yes, but i have no courage to finish the task... | are you able to identify the function of each type of board | (such as 'And' gate, Flip-Flop etc) Probably, with the help of my lectures of the sixties... | If not I could perhaps compare with my 1301 schematics and see if | they have any similarities. How difficult is it to identify the power | supply connections? For the small computer, i have to analyse schematics (to be done!)For the earlier, cables are preserved and connected. I have power supplies, so it is allways possible to trace wires... (not really exciting!) | Are you planning on doing schematics for the board interconnections? Not today! or this year. First i plan to preserve the machine and publish photos. | I imagine this would be very difficult, so probably best not to try. There is no national interest, today, in France, to preserve or study old machines... It's a huge task. I can not do that... alone. So i will wait (or my sons..) that French speak, make meetings, makereports, ask for money... may be in 20 years. Museums are for paintings, ceramics, statues... I have to be more positive!!! By the way, if you are not still fed up, i spent last days in publishing an analysis about a display terminal designed in 1969, which use 32 TV delay lines as memory! Have a look there: http://pichotjm.free.fr/DisplayDL/DisplayDLus.html Note. I have not a perfect english, so i can misuse words. I never intend to be agressive, unpolite or to hurt any body. I wish you a good evening. Jean-Marie PICHOT > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 03:47:58 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 04:47:58 -0400 Subject: End of restoration of the early French computer SEREL ODP-505 (germanium CPU) In-Reply-To: <019601c89292$ccdaf000$2601a8c0@JM3800> References: <019601c89292$ccdaf000$2601a8c0@JM3800> Message-ID: <47F0A53E.7000006@gmail.com> pichotjm wrote: > | > ECN: Engineering change notice. Indicates revision of PCB.| | > Thanks, I did not realise you had already translated it to English.| >| > > The ODP-505 is a pure binary machine, not designed for arithmetics,| > > statistical purposes or BCD computations.It is a real time (!!!) | > Some line-breaks would be nice. Peace... Sridhar From trebor72 at execpc.com Mon Mar 31 08:40:41 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:40:41 -0500 Subject: NEC APC cctalk Digest, Vol 55, Issue 49 In-Reply-To: <200803301800.m2UI0U0B008729@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803301800.m2UI0U0B008729@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47F0E9D9.2090207@execpc.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:53:04 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > Subject: Re: Anyone got a NEC APC > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <492893.16798.qm at web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > I have 2. > snipped Don't think my > disks are worth a lot either, haven't managed to boot > off any of them. This too is a bummer, because one of > my units has a rare card along with a set of 5 1/4" > drives (external) and the driver software is on one of > them. Butler Flats Associates was the vendor. > > --- "Robert J. Stevens" GOOD E-MAIL wrote: >> got my NEC APC running If you want to send me them [send your address to above E-Mail] and they are 8" I can test them. Then I can send you a couple back if they Don't boot to test your machine with or else Make Bootable copies of yours to send back with your originals. If they boot on my Machines then you'll know where the problem lies. I've got both CP/M-86 and MS-Dos 2.0 that boot up both of my Machines. Bob From steve at radiorobots.com Mon Mar 31 10:13:40 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:13:40 -0400 Subject: Caetron and Farallon Message-ID: <47F0FFA4.30907@radiorobots.com> Anyone have a pile of lit from either of these? Thanks, Steve From steve at radiorobots.com Mon Mar 31 10:33:38 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:33:38 -0400 Subject: Caetron and Farallon In-Reply-To: <47F0FFA4.30907@radiorobots.com> References: <47F0FFA4.30907@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <47F10452.5070106@radiorobots.com> Steve Stutman wrote: > Anyone have a pile of lit from either of these? > > Thanks, > Steve Sri, make that Cabletron. From doug at stillhq.com Mon Mar 31 16:38:33 2008 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson - pesonal email) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 08:38:33 +1100 Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: <200803311800.m2VI0TIB022275@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200803311800.m2VI0TIB022275@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> Hi Everybody I was reading some doco last night (specifically the DEC RL11/01 Disk Subsystem Training Handout), and I am confused. (That is nothing new...) In the "Subsystem commands section", the addresses specified for DAR and CSR are 774404, and 774400 respectively, but in the back of the document, under the 'toggle in programs' section, the DAR and CSR are shown as being at 174404 and 174400 respectively. Hmmm. I see three possibilities: 1. I have (re) discovered a documentation error - I wonder if DEC, no, HP, no Compaq, would be happy for me to submit an amendment :-) 2. The hardware throws away the upper bits so both references are correct. Hmmm Possibly not :-) 3. There is some other stuff happening that I missed... If anybody could shed some light on this I would appreciate it. The background to the problem is that I can not convince my shiny, wonderful, (and noisy) DL01 to perform the seek test - Me thinks there is a problem.... Doug From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Mar 31 16:44:39 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:44:39 -0500 Subject: Caetron and Farallon In-Reply-To: <47F10452.5070106@radiorobots.com> References: <47F0FFA4.30907@radiorobots.com> <47F0FFA4.30907@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080331163443.0d3cda50@localhost> At 11:33 AM 2008-03-31 -0400, you wrote: >Steve Stutman wrote: >>Anyone have a pile of lit from either of these? >> >>Thanks, >>Steve >Sri, make that Cabletron. I have new shrinkwrapped CD from Cabletron, called Hardware Manuals V.1.1 In the \Content folder is 159 adobe docs for the entire product line as of early 1997. I know because I have more than one copy and one is NOT still shrinkwrapped. It also has 244 PDF files in the \MANUALS folder, plus a few more elsewhere. The whole CD is organized elegantly and puts any manual for any product a few clicks away. The main menu is organized by product family with additional entries for training, legaleze, etc. Many of the manuals are 100 pages or more. Some have a Local Management appendix that's separate, a link listed below the one for the main manual. ----- 84. [Computing] You are writing real-time code when you have to fight for 10 instructions --Raul Izahi Lopez Hernandez, C-Cube Microsystems, Milpitas, CA, U.S.A. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From drb at msu.edu Mon Mar 31 16:47:13 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:47:13 -0400 Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 01 Apr 2008 08:38:33 +1100.) <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> References: <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> <200803311800.m2VI0TIB022275@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200803312147.m2VLlDqI019339@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > CSR are 774404, and 774400 respectively, but in the back of the 18 bit bus addresses. > shown as being at 174404 and 174400 respectively. 16 bit bus addresses. I'd have to look up the RL11 to know if it could be used in a 22 bit machine, but if so, it'd be 17777404 and 17777400. De From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 31 16:59:11 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:59:11 -0400 Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: <200803312147.m2VLlDqI019339@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> <200803311800.m2VI0TIB022275@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200803312147.m2VLlDqI019339@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200803311759.11567.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 31 March 2008, Dennis Boone wrote: > > CSR are 774404, and 774400 respectively, but in the back of the > > 18 bit bus addresses. > > > shown as being at 174404 and 174400 respectively. > > 16 bit bus addresses. > > I'd have to look up the RL11 to know if it could be used in a 22 bit > machine, but if so, it'd be 17777404 and 17777400. Supposedly, no the RLV11 is 18-bit or less only. The RLV12 is what you're supposed to use in a 22b system. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Mar 31 17:02:53 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:02:53 +0000 Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> References: <200803311800.m2VI0TIB022275@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <20080331220253.GA25708@usap.gov> On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 08:38:33AM +1100, Doug Jackson - pesonal email wrote: > Hi Everybody > > I was reading some doco last night (specifically the DEC RL11/01 Disk > Subsystem Training Handout), and I am confused. > > (That is nothing new...) > > In the "Subsystem commands section", the addresses specified for DAR and > CSR are 774404, and 774400 respectively, but in the back of the > document, under the 'toggle in programs' section, the DAR and CSR are > shown as being at 174404 and 174400 respectively. Yes. > Hmmm. I see three possibilities: > > 1. I have (re) discovered a documentation error - I wonder if DEC, no, > HP, no Compaq, would be happy for me to submit an amendment :-) It's not a documentation error. > 2. The hardware throws away the upper bits so both references are > correct. Hmmm Possibly not :-) The hardware doesn't throw away the upper bits... quite the opposite... > 3. There is some other stuff happening that I missed... What's happening is that you have a machine with 16-bit registers, but are working with, essentially, 18 address bits. Look at 174400... 16 bits, so it fits inside a PDP-11 register. 774404 takes 18 bits to represent, and _is_ what ends up on the Unibus. What's going on under the hood is that when you point to addresses near the top few K (2K? 8K?), what goes onto the Unibus _doesn't_ trigger an access to your RAM card - it adds two 1 bits on the Unibus and tickles I/O cards instead. In otherwords, if you write a program to scan all 64K that you can directly address with a register (and not fiddling with MMU registers), you'll hit whatever 64K bank of RAM is mapped in, until you hit the I/O page, then it's I/O registers to 177777. If you are at the pre-boot stage (i.e., no OS has set up your MMU or Unibus mapping registers), you should probably refer to the handbook for your exact processor for details about how to hit I/O registers from console ODT or your console keypad or whatever. Thinking back nearly 25 years, ISTR slight differences between, say, an 11/04 and an 11/34 about this sort of thing (because the 11/34 is a richer- featured machine). The 11/24 has either an 18-bit or 22-bit bus depending if you have a KT24 installed or not The 11/70 has a 22-bit address space always, AFAIK. I don't know enough about the internals of the 11/44 or other models like the 11/40, 11/45, 11/60, but I'm sure there are plenty of large -11 experts here who can chime in. You didn't say what machine you have, so I've kept things quite generic, mostly thinking of how the 11/04 and/or 11/34 do things since they are the most common. At the very least, you should be able to hit the CSR and DAR from either your front panel or console ODT and see that the board shows up. You mention a "seek test"... is this with XXDP or are you toggling-in a standalone test or what? Is this caution, or will the machine not boot with a bootable pack? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Mar-2008 at 21:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -59.8 F (-51.0 C) Windchill -100.6 F (-73.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.5 kts Grid 30 Barometer 691.5 mb (10197 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Mar 31 17:06:16 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:06:16 +0000 Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: <200803311759.11567.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> <200803311800.m2VI0TIB022275@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200803312147.m2VLlDqI019339@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200803311759.11567.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20080331220616.GB25708@usap.gov> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 05:59:11PM -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 31 March 2008, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > CSR are 774404, and 774400 respectively, but in the back of the > > > > 18 bit bus addresses. > > > > > shown as being at 174404 and 174400 respectively. > > > > 16 bit bus addresses. > > > > I'd have to look up the RL11 to know if it could be used in a 22 bit > > machine, but if so, it'd be 17777404 and 17777400. > > Supposedly, no the RLV11 is 18-bit or less only. The RLV12 is what > you're supposed to use in a 22b system. I've heard that one can use a bounce-buffer to use an RLV11 in a 22-bit machine (but the RLV12 is preferred, of course), however, the OP was asking about an RL11, an 18-bit Unibus interface. I have used an RL11 in my 11/24 w/KT24 (to load real 2BSD from real magtape), so I'm pretty sure it works fine in a 22-bit environment (but I can't say if the KT24 just smooths over DMA buffer address issues or what). Dunno if you can stuff an RL11 in an 11/70 or not, but I would hope so (since there really aren't any Unibus peripherals that "know" about 22 bits). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Mar-2008 at 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -59.4 F (-50.8 C) Windchill -99.5 F (-73.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.9 kts Grid 33 Barometer 691.4 mb (10201 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 31 17:09:12 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:09:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: <200803312147.m2VLlDqI019339@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Mar 31, 8 05:47:13 pm Message-ID: > I'd have to look up the RL11 to know if it could be used in a 22 bit > machine, but if so, it'd be 17777404 and 17777400. It can't. It's a Unibus device, and the Unibus only has 18 address lines. On Unibus machines with 22 bit memory addressing (11/44, 11/70, etc) there's a second 'MMU' -- the Unibus Map -- that translates 18 bit DMA addresses from peripherals into 22 it memory addresses. To access peripheral control registers, the 18 bit Unibus 'space' is mapped into the top of the 22 bit address space produced from the 16 bit prgram-generated address by the normal MMU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 31 16:52:13 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:52:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a M8330 or a couple of SN74194's In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DF28@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Mar 30, 8 08:13:47 pm Message-ID: > > > Not only did Cricklewood have them, but they arrived Saturday morning. I'm even luckier in that I live near enough to Cricklewood Electronics that I can pop over there and pick the chips up the same day ;-) > That effected a partial fix. > The timing generator is a string of four bit shift registers clocked > with 20Mhz. OK. > Various combinations of their outputs are used to set and reset > bistables made out of cross coupled 7440's. > As the problem I'm fixing is you can't load memory, which is a one shot > operation, its slow old work. I don;t know what test gear you have, but I find a simple logic probe to be more use than a 'scope for this sort of problem. The former can easily detect narrow pulses that are difficult, if not impossible, to see on a non-storage 'scope. Of course an 'Advanded Logic Probe' as HP called the LogicDart is even nicer, but... Do you have the maintenance manual? Not the printset (schematics), but the book which is a low-level circuit description? It's well worth reading!. I would have thought it wouldn't be too hard to keep on hitting the DEP key and seeing what, if any Omnius signals are generated. And then totrace back the missing one(s). [...] > I also return all systems to working order. Apart from a couple of > VT420's with ticking SMPSU's everything I have restored runs. (Three Any reason you';ve not fixed those? Ticking SMPSUs are often quite simple to fix, maybe just dried-up capacitors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 31 16:57:28 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:57:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: A simple request? In-Reply-To: <697263.22927.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Tom Watson" at Mar 31, 8 00:28:40 am Message-ID: > > Lots of people mention devices (of all types) that are in some state of > transfer (for sale, for a good home, need help in moving, etc.). While I > appreciate all of these informative descriptions, I am loathe to respond since > I don't know if I could be of any help due to distance. > > I would like to recommend that those requesting assistance mention their > locale. We here in the USA have these nice devices called ZIP codes which are > quite helpful. In other parts of the world, similar postal codes exist, and > along with a country would indicate to the casual reader (like me) as to what > level of participation they could achieve. I would agree. This is an interntational list (which is certainly a Good Thing), and the size/nature of the machines discussed here means that more help can be given from sombody who is local As an alternative to a ZIP code/postcode/..., a simple description of where you are, along with the country, would be OK I think. Something like 'Just north of Bristol, England'. > Basically I don't have a need to respond to a request for assistance for moving > a large piece of equipment that is 3000 miles from my home. Or in my case, seeing the dream machine I've alwaysed wnated, but then having this little bit of water in the way... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 31 17:06:35 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:06:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> from "Doug Jackson - pesonal email" at Apr 1, 8 08:38:33 am Message-ID: > > Hi Everybody > > I was reading some doco last night (specifically the DEC RL11/01 Disk > Subsystem Training Handout), and I am confused. > > (That is nothing new...) > > In the "Subsystem commands section", the addresses specified for DAR and > CSR are 774404, and 774400 respectively, but in the back of the > document, under the 'toggle in programs' section, the DAR and CSR are > shown as being at 174404 and 174400 respectively. > > Hmmm. I see three possibilities: > > 1. I have (re) discovered a documentation error - I wonder if DEC, no, > HP, no Compaq, would be happy for me to submit an amendment :-) > > 2. The hardware throws away the upper bits so both references are > correct. Hmmm Possibly not :-) Actaully, that's close. The thing is, the physcial Unius address is 18 bits wide (a full 6 octal digits), whereas the PDP11 is a 16 bit processor, so any addresses calculated by a program are 16 it numbers. Now, on the larger PDP11s, there's a memory management unit that translates 16 bit adresses into 18 bit ones. But on smaller machines, and on all machines when the MMU is not enabled (in software), the hardware extendes the 16 bit address to an 18 bit one by a very simple method. If the top 3 bits of the 16 bit address are all 1's (that is, it's between 160000 and 177777), then the top 2 address lines of the 18 bit address -- the ones that are not part of the 16 it address -- are both set. Otherwise they're both reset. These addresses correspond (normally) to I/O devices, not memory. So, if you/re not using the MMU, then from a program you talk to the RL11 at 174400. From the front paeel, which (on machines with an MMU, at least) generates the full 18 it address, you use 774400 -tony From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Mar 31 17:15:03 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:15:03 -0700 Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> References: <200803311800.m2VI0TIB022275@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <47F16267.4040504@mindspring.com> Doug Jackson - pesonal email wrote: > Hi Everybody > > I was reading some doco last night (specifically the DEC RL11/01 Disk > Subsystem Training Handout), and I am confused. > > (That is nothing new...) > > In the "Subsystem commands section", the addresses specified for DAR > and CSR are 774404, and 774400 respectively, but in the back of the > document, under the 'toggle in programs' section, the DAR and CSR are > shown as being at 174404 and 174400 respectively. > > Hmmm. I see three possibilities: > > 1. I have (re) discovered a documentation error - I wonder if DEC, > no, HP, no Compaq, would be happy for me to submit an amendment :-) > > 2. The hardware throws away the upper bits so both references are > correct. Hmmm Possibly not :-) > This is actually the closest to the truth when operating in unmapped mode. The hardware actually adds two extra bits, converting 16b program virtual addresses (what your code sees) to 18b UNIBUS physical addresses (what the controller sees). For this specific case 16b addresses in the range 160000-177777 are converted to 18b addresses 760000-777777. So the real answer to your question above is both are correct. It depends on where in the system you are looking. I would suggest you look at any one of the PDP-11 Processor handbooks to see how 16b to 18b address mapping works, and a discussion of the 'I/O page' architecture. > 3. There is some other stuff happening that I missed... > > If anybody could shed some light on this I would appreciate it. The > background to the problem is that I can not convince my shiny, > wonderful, (and noisy) DL01 to perform the seek test - Me thinks there > is a problem.... > > Doug > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 31 17:26:43 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:26:43 -0400 Subject: Caetron and Farallon References: <47F0FFA4.30907@radiorobots.com> <47F0FFA4.30907@radiorobots.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080331163443.0d3cda50@localhost> Message-ID: <003a01c8937e$4cbac4d0$c600a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Peters" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: Re: Caetron and Farallon > At 11:33 AM 2008-03-31 -0400, you wrote: > >Steve Stutman wrote: > >>Anyone have a pile of lit from either of these? > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Steve > >Sri, make that Cabletron. > I have new shrinkwrapped CD from Cabletron, called Hardware Manuals V.1.1 > > In the \Content folder is 159 adobe docs for the entire product line as of > early 1997. I know because I have more than one copy and one is NOT still > shrinkwrapped. > > It also has 244 PDF files in the \MANUALS folder, plus a few more > elsewhere. The whole CD is organized elegantly and puts any manual for any > product a few clicks away. The main menu is organized by product family > with additional entries for training, legaleze, etc. > > Many of the manuals are 100 pages or more. Some have a Local Management > appendix that's separate, a link listed below the one for the main manual. Are manuals for Apple cards in there as well? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 31 19:25:31 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11 RL11/01 Address confusion. In-Reply-To: <200803312147.m2VLlDqI019339@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <47F159D9.4020405@stillhq.com> <200803311800.m2VI0TIB022275@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200803312147.m2VLlDqI019339@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <40059.64.62.206.10.1207009531.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > I'd have to look up the RL11 to know if it could be used in a 22 bit > machine, but if so, it'd be 17777404 and 17777400. Nope. No Unibus peripherals support 22-bit NPR addressing, since Unibus has only 18 address bits. On a Unibus system with 22-bit addressing support (11/70, 11/84, 11/94) the Unibus Map has to be used to translate the 18-bit Unibus addresses into 22-bit memory addresses. The RH70 supports direct (unmapped) 22-bit addressing, but it isn't actually a Unibus device. For NPR, it transfers data via the cache subsystem, rather than over Unibus. Some Qbus devices support 22-bit NPR. If memory serves, the RLV21 has 22-bit addressing while the RLV11 does not. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 31 21:00:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:00:00 -0700 Subject: Adding a 3rd floppy to an old PC SCSI controller Message-ID: <47F134B0.22147.1E4A0D7@cclist.sydex.com> The other day, I noted that both the DTC 3280 and the UltraStor 14N SCSI controllers have an option to add a 3rd floppy drive to the common floppy cable. Essentially, they place the motor control on pin 4 and drive select on pin 6 for the extra drive. It's not hard to make up a cable (Ultrastor supplied one with their kits) and a simple DOS driver provides access to the third diskette. I have a couple of drivers, if anyone's interested. But I wanted to use a Future Domain 1670 controller in this case. It uses the same FDC (National DP8473), but doesn't bring the motor and drive select out to the floppy connector. So, for 5 minutes of time, and a couple of lengths of wire wrap wire and a hot soldering iron, all one need do is strap pin 4 of the floppy connect to pin 1 of the 8473 and pin 6 of the floppy connector to pin 42 of the 8473. Works great. Wish I would have thought of this trick when the controller was new 15 years ago. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Mar 31 21:43:48 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 02:43:48 +0000 Subject: Neat find (in my own junk bin!) - NS 8073 In-Reply-To: <47CBC437.9060306@stillhq.com> References: <200803030750.m237nsk4091286@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47CBC437.9060306@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <20080401024348.GA30031@usap.gov> On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 08:26:15PM +1100, Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi > > I saw a message on the classic computer list in 2003 from Ethan saying > that he had a RB5X robot controller with a 8073 SC/MP controller on it... Hi, Doug, Was that pointer to my INS8073 page of use? Have you gotten your chip working yet? You really can get it working with a byte-wide SRAM, a 4MHz clock, a TTL-RS-232 level shifter and a few baud-rate-select resistors. I just found a couple of rudimentary 8073 schematics in EagleCAD format, but there's nothing there that isn't in the Nat'l Semi reference design, really. I still have to complete my MC-1N schematic capture (2K RAM, 2K/4K ROM, MM58174 clock, 8255 PPI, 82S23 address select PROM). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 1-Apr-2008 at 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -59.8 F (-51.0 C) Windchill -100.3 F (-73.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.2 kts Grid 35 Barometer 690.2 mb (10246 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 22:43:20 2008 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:43:20 -0400 Subject: PDP11-04 available in Cleveland, Ohio, USA for $100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is claimed. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 31 23:15:26 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:15:26 -0700 Subject: Adding a 3rd floppy to an old PC SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <47F134B0.22147.1E4A0D7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47F134B0.22147.1E4A0D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:00:00 -0700 > Subject: Adding a 3rd floppy to an old PC SCSI controller > > The other day, I noted that both the DTC 3280 and the UltraStor 14N > SCSI controllers have an option to add a 3rd floppy drive to the > common floppy cable. Essentially, they place the motor control on > pin 4 and drive select on pin 6 for the extra drive. It's not hard > to make up a cable (Ultrastor supplied one with their kits) and a > simple DOS driver provides access to the third diskette. I have a > couple of drivers, if anyone's interested. > > But I wanted to use a Future Domain 1670 controller in this case. It > uses the same FDC (National DP8473), but doesn't bring the motor and > drive select out to the floppy connector. So, for 5 minutes of time, > and a couple of lengths of wire wrap wire and a hot soldering iron, > all one need do is strap pin 4 of the floppy connect to pin 1 of the > 8473 and pin 6 of the floppy connector to pin 42 of the 8473. > > Works great. Wish I would have thought of this trick when the > controller was new 15 years ago. > > Hi Chuck Pardon me for asking but are you sure the chip can provide enough drive? Most floppies expect to terminal with about 150 Ohms. That is more than an unbuffered output of most chips are designed for. Just asking? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V3 From hofmanwb at versatel.nl Mon Mar 31 14:51:05 2008 From: hofmanwb at versatel.nl (W.B.(Wim)Hofman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:51:05 +0200 Subject: Need a good home (currently in Arnhem, Netherlands) Message-ID: <47F140A9.8070008@versatel.nl> I would like to part from - a Compaq 286/SLT luggable - an LA75 (Dec) printer - an LA50 printer - 4 x RL02 drives - 2 x RL01 drives - 2 x PDP11/24, but one is a mess - 20 + RL02 disks Wim From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 16:17:39 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC APC cctalk Digest, Vol 55, Issue 49 In-Reply-To: <47F0E9D9.2090207@execpc.com> Message-ID: <596677.73133.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'd probably rather send them to Dave Dunfield in Canada, no offence, but out of curiosity where are you located? --- "Robert J. Stevens" wrote: > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:53:04 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Chris M > > Subject: Re: Anyone got a NEC APC > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > > > > Message-ID: > <492893.16798.qm at web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > I have 2. > > snipped Don't think my > > disks are worth a lot either, haven't managed to > boot > > off any of them. This too is a bummer, because one > of > > my units has a rare card along with a set of 5 > 1/4" > > drives (external) and the driver software is on > one of > > them. Butler Flats Associates was the vendor. > > > > --- "Robert J. Stevens" > GOOD E-MAIL wrote: > >> got my NEC APC running > If you want to send me them [send your address to > above E-Mail] and they > are 8" I can test them. Then I can send you a couple > back if they Don't > boot to test your machine with or else Make Bootable > copies of yours to > send back with your originals. If they boot on my > Machines then you'll > know where the problem lies. > I've got both CP/M-86 and MS-Dos 2.0 that boot up > both of my Machines. > Bob > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com