From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jul 1 03:07:48 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 00:07:48 -0800 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply References: <200806292026.27785.rtellason@verizon.net> <55262.71.139.49.106.1214857168.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200806302042.54690.rtellason@verizon.net> <46781.64.62.206.10.1214873526.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4869E5D4.974A199B@cs.ubc.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > > I wote: > > Why does it require isolation between the 9VAC and the +5V DC? It's not > > obvious to me from the schematic. > > Roy wrote: > > The 9VAC supply is fed into a voltage doubler to derive the regulated +12V > > and a separate +5VDC supply, and I don't think that either of those 9VAC > > lines can be grounded. > > Neither side needs to be grounded. > > The C64 *already* has a bridge rectifier and 5V linear regulator powered > by the 9VAC input to produce an auxiliary 5V supply, so I don't see why > building an external power supply using a transformer with a single 9VAC > secondary, and a bridge rectifier and 5V regulator (linear or switching) > would be a problem. > > However, I haven't tried it, and don't accept any responsibility for > anyone else trying it. > > Eric If I'm reading the C64 schematic (Sam's photofact version) correctly, the ground-side diodes of the two bridges (the original low-current one in the C64 and the new/main one in the power supply) would end up in parallel (or almost in parallel: there's a noise suppression inductor, fuse, etc. involved), so one may have unpredictable behaviour as to which diodes take the current and/or issues with unintended current flow in some supply paths. I haven't looked at what the low-current bridge diodes are rated for, perhaps it would work for the currents involved, but I think it looks bad from a 'design principles' perspective. If one were willing to modify the C64 you could open the ground lead of the existing bridge (so that you have two half-bridges for the two positive sides, and one half-bridge for the ground side). Or perhaps the ground-side diodes of the bridge in the C64 would just go poof and effectively open the ground lead for you :) From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jul 1 02:35:27 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:35:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Available PDP 11/35 Message-ID: <6643.213.169.196.228.1214897727.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello All, I have available one PDP 11/35 in a 10.5" BA-11 box. It contains the processor backplane, programmers console, a cpu with the base processor, EIS option, stack limit, MMU and a 256Kb memory card. Next to that is has a 9 slot DD11 expansion backplane, and optionally a complete RK-11D disk controller. Please contact me off list with your offer. Thanks, Ed From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jul 1 03:23:42 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:23:42 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 02:24:16AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Making a switching supply to give a 50Hz or 60Hz AC output would be > decidedly non-trivial (and IMHO not senisble here). The obvious way to And yet I've got a couple of C64 power supplies that are most definitely switchers. *Someone* did it, but since they're currently 220 miles away it's a bit hard to read the label. We used to sell them in a computer shop I worked in about 16 years ago. IIRC they were about 20 quid, half the price of the "real" Commodore one. Gordon From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 03:27:44 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:27:44 +0100 Subject: HP 1826-1388 Network interface chip In-Reply-To: <20080630233939.d0b4fe0f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20080630233939.d0b4fe0f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: >From an internal HP document Bench Briefs 3rd and 4th quarters 1990 1826-1388 makers code 03794 AM7960 Dave Caroline archivist (IRC) From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jul 1 03:27:36 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:27:36 +0200 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 - restoration project In-Reply-To: <20080630231629.e2e71e27.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20080630195553.026d2078.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20080630231629.e2e71e27.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20080701082736.GA22089@frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:16:29PM +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:35:05 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Incidentally, I found some acetic acid (fairly concentrated too), in > > the 'Kosher' section of the local supermarket. I have no idea what > > the intended application of it is, but it's quite useful for cleaning > > up NiCd corrosion too. > Well. Actually acetic acid is the acid in vinegar. Most likely this > stuff is just pure acetic acid without any "flavor". > > Remember: If you are going to dilute concentrated acid _allways_ pour the acid into water. Never do it the other way around. Pouring water into concentrated acid may cause the water to heat up quite quick. High enough to make the water boil instantly. The result are drops of water and concentrated acid jumping around. Preferably onto your skin and into your eyes... > > > > (I use citric acid in the dark room because it doesn't smell.) > > As a stop bath? > Yes. Actually I use the special photo stuff with ph-indicator. But simple citric acid from the drug store does as well. It is much cheaper then the photo stuff. Unfortunately I got this knowledge after I had purchased the photo stuff already. Simply grab yourself a large bag (a few kg) of food grade citric acid (I got a 5 kg bag from EBay 3 years bag - I still have enough left despite using it liberally for cleaning). It should be pure enough for the job. > Coca Cola should work too as it contains phosphoric acid. (For cleaning. I am surely not going to dip my fibre based photo paper in Coke. ;-) ) *yrch* Coca Cola might work due the phosporic acid - but it also contains an enormous amount of sugar. So you might have removed the alkali from the board, but now it is coated in a sticky sugary mixture ... better stick with pure citric acid and clean water ;-) > Obviously all this stuff works great to remove chalky deposit caused by > water evaporation. E.g. on the water cooling of your mainframe - or > your coffee machine or tee kettle. Yep - half a centimetre of chalk buildup in a water kettle? No problem, just fill up with water, add several large heaped spoons of citric acid, boil, wait and rinse. Clean ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cctech at blala.de Tue Jul 1 03:41:06 2008 From: cctech at blala.de (cctech at blala.de) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:41:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP Keyboards In-Reply-To: <00ABA88B609849268552DA439E272851@xp1800> References: <00ABA88B609849268552DA439E272851@xp1800> Message-ID: Hi, the HP9816-(HP9000/216)-keyboard is definitively not HP-HIL-type. HP-HIL is a bi-directional-bus-poll type protocol, HP9816 is unidirectional synchronous "long shift register" type. Here is a raw diagram of the keyboard protocol and connector http://www.kbdbabel.org/hp9816kbd.png http://www.kbdbabel.org/conn/kbd_connector_hp9816.png There exists an protocol converter from the HP9816-keyboard to PS2 http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-hp9816-ps2/ PS2 to HP9816 should be possible as well. Alexander On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Rik wrote: > > > > > Does any one knows if the keyboards of the 9000/200 series are > interchangeble with the HP-150 keyboards ? > > Rik > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jul 1 07:02:51 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:02:51 -0300 Subject: RFC re Willem EEPROM programmers References: <4869253E.3080802@mdrconsult.com><262901c8dafe$17e52260$160c010a@portajara> <48696550.6040407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <28d301c8db72$b8c3bf10$160c010a@portajara> > Admittedly it was a rather simple bug to fix, and it only covered one > chip, > but it's nice to know the service is there. I really do fancy buying one > of > their universal (pin-driver) programmers, though I doubt the pennies in my > 'equipment and upgrades' budget will go quite that far :( Phil, it is not THAT expensive. Take a look on used equipment on ebay, you'll find nice offers with cheap prices :) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 08:59:41 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 08:59:41 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <486A384D.1060006@gmail.com> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 02:24:16AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> Making a switching supply to give a 50Hz or 60Hz AC output would be >> decidedly non-trivial (and IMHO not senisble here). The obvious way to > > And yet I've got a couple of C64 power supplies that are most definitely > switchers. *Someone* did it, but since they're currently 220 miles away > it's a bit hard to read the label. Were those custom jobs, or off-the-shelf supplies (that someone stuffed into a box)? I don't think I've seen an off-the-shelf switcher with a 9VAC output* before, but Farnell, Plessey, Astec and Weir crop up all over the place in UK equipment... * I don't think, anyway. Some of them do seem to have an 'aux'-type output that the user can tweak to their own spec, though. From trag at io.com Tue Jul 1 10:36:18 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:36:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Is Needham Electronics Out of Business? In-Reply-To: <200807011051.m61ApmYw070015@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807011051.m61ApmYw070015@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <29710.209.163.133.242.1214926578.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Watching a few of the [E]EPROM programmer threads got me to thinking about my EMP-30, made by Needham Electronics. I have not been able to get their website to come up for months. Anyone know if they have gone out of business? I noticed that prices for their programmer accessories (e.g. family modules) jumped substantially a few years ago which is usually not a good sign. If they are gone, anyone know what the latest version of their software was? I know, it was me asking for support of some older Lattic CPLDs which pushed them over the edge... ;-) Jeff Walther From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 1 09:45:16 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:45:16 -0400 Subject: The first Programmer? In-Reply-To: <003201c8dadf$aef36cd0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <003201c8dadf$aef36cd0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <62A0AEB4-44C1-4A79-92A5-D8C0AFDC2671@neurotica.com> On Jun 30, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/2188963/David-Caminer.html > > I suppose someone will say it depends on what I mean by first and > programmer ... Well...first or not, it's an interesting read! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gstreet at indy.net Tue Jul 1 11:26:47 2008 From: gstreet at indy.net (Robert) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:26:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Does anyone have an older copy of Ontrack Disk Manager? Message-ID: <16624537.1214929608349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello, I'm looking for an older version of Ontrack Disk Manager. I need to perform a bad sector check and low-level format for an MFM HD. I actually have 2 legit copies of the program (from the late 1980's), but, of course, I cannot find them now. Thank you, Robert Greenstreet gstreet at indy.net From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 1 12:27:55 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:27:55 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have an older copy of Ontrack Disk Manager? In-Reply-To: <16624537.1214929608349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <16624537.1214929608349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:26 AM, Robert wrote: > Hello, > > I'm looking for an older version of Ontrack Disk Manager. I need to perform > a bad sector check and low-level format for an MFM HD. I have copies that shipped with disk drives. These are locked to support the specific drive manufacturer and drives that existed at the time. I think I have one for microsci and seagate MFM drives. Is this drive in an AT without a low level format program in the BIOS? For a more general solution, I tend to use spinrite (available from grc.com), especially if I have a drive with data on it that is starting to get seek failures. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 1 12:28:53 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:28:53 -0400 Subject: RFC re Willem EEPROM programmers In-Reply-To: References: <4869253E.3080802@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <9116AA49-C1F6-46DC-A651-396BA6A20065@neurotica.com> On Jul 1, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The VCCp on the the board is normally switched through a small > PNP transistor that inserts a non-linear voltage drop as a function > of current. The kit adds a little relay to directly switch VCCp > and avoid the drop. Gads, a relay? I'd have used a MOSFET there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 1 12:48:41 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:48:41 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 1:23 AM, wrote: > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 02:24:16AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Making a switching supply to give a 50Hz or 60Hz AC output would be >> decidedly non-trivial (and IMHO not senisble here). The obvious way to > > And yet I've got a couple of C64 power supplies that are most definitely > switchers. *Someone* did it, but since they're currently 220 miles away > it's a bit hard to read the label. > > We used to sell them in a computer shop I worked in about 16 years ago. > IIRC they were about 20 quid, half the price of the "real" Commodore > one. I haven't looked at the AC circuitry in the C64, is it dependent on the input being AC? I've a fair amount of equipment that ships with an AC wall wart that is perfectly fine with DC. If all the AC is doing is feeding a rectifier that can handle the full current through any path, DC would probably do the job. If there's actual items that require AC (transformers, things that generate clocks from the AC), then, of course, it won't work. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jul 1 13:00:37 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:00:37 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <486A384D.1060006@gmail.com> References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> <486A384D.1060006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486A70C5.8090600@jbrain.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 02:24:16AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Making a switching supply to give a 50Hz or 60Hz AC output would be >>> decidedly non-trivial (and IMHO not senisble here). The obvious way to >> >> And yet I've got a couple of C64 power supplies that are most definitely >> switchers. *Someone* did it, but since they're currently 220 miles away >> it's a bit hard to read the label. > > Were those custom jobs, or off-the-shelf supplies (that someone > stuffed into a box)? I don't think I've seen an off-the-shelf switcher > with a 9VAC output* before, but Farnell, Plessey, Astec and Weir crop > up all over the place in UK equipment... > > * I don't think, anyway. Some of them do seem to have an 'aux'-type > output that the user can tweak to their own spec, though. > Late in the game, CBM switched (no pun intended) to switchers. I have a C128 PSU that is a switcher. They were mounted in the same case, but you can tell by the weight. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 1 13:46:19 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:46:19 -0700 Subject: Colorado Memory Systems Jumperless Tape Controller In-Reply-To: <200807011700.m61H04ZT076150@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807011700.m61H04ZT076150@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <486A190B.10441.4D2A585@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:53:36 -0700 > From: "Glen Slick" > Anyone have any info on a Colorado Memory Systems Jumperless Tape > Controller 026-328? > > It's an 8-bit ISA card with an Intel 82077AA floppy controller. I > have no intention of using this as a tape controller, but wondering if > it would be useful as a floppy controller? I think I've got that one as well as the 2Mb/sec follow-on one in my hellbox. IIRC, it sets the DMA/port/IRQ via the ISA-PNP mechanism (which accounts for the extra logic). If you've got an ISA PNP inventory program, you can easily verify this. An early version of PNP, but later ISA-equipped PCs support it via BIOS and there is usually some sort of manual configuration program for those that don't. Otherwise, it's pretty much a garden-variety floppy controller, though I don't recall if all of the ancillary signals are brought out to the connector (e.g., DISK CHANGE). Depending on the exact date code and stepping of the 82077, the card may or may not support writing FM-encoded data. Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 1 13:47:40 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:47:40 -0700 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 - restoration project In-Reply-To: <20080701082736.GA22089@frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20080630195553.026d2078.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20080630231629.e2e71e27.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20080701082736.GA22089@frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> Coca Cola should work too as it contains phosphoric acid. > Coca Cola might work due the phosporic acid - but it also contains an > enormous amount of sugar. So you might have removed the alkali from the > board, but now it is coated in a sticky sugary mixture ... Sugar, properly treated, can form a hard insulating coating. I'm sure I once saw MyGuyver fix arcing high tension lines with nothing more than a creme brule and a soda straw. From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Jul 1 13:48:15 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:48:15 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Eric J Korpela wrote: > If there's actual items that require AC (transformers, things that > generate clocks from the AC), then, of course, it won't work. There is at least the time of day clock. It's driven off of the 50Hz/60Hz AC. -Seth From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jul 1 14:47:24 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:47:24 +0100 Subject: RFC re Willem EEPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <4869253E.3080802@mdrconsult.com> References: <4869253E.3080802@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <486A89CC.2020605@gjcp.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > 3) Yes, I know the software's Windows-only. If anybody knows of a > sub-$100 programmer with OS X software, I'd be overjoyed to hear about > it. Otherwise, BFD; I have to keep a Windows box for work anyhow. I've never tried it under Windows (I don't have Windows to try it on...) but the Willem software works perfectly okay under wine. Gordon From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 1 15:26:43 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <4869E5D4.974A199B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200806292026.27785.rtellason@verizon.net> <55262.71.139.49.106.1214857168.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200806302042.54690.rtellason@verizon.net> <46781.64.62.206.10.1214873526.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4869E5D4.974A199B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <39460.64.62.206.10.1214944003.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Brent wrote: > so one may have unpredictable behaviour as to which diodes take > the current and/or issues with unintended current flow in some supply > paths. It generally won't matter that much which bridge is providing the ground return path. It will provide the necessary reference voltage. If the lower-rated diode happens to have a slightly lower forward drop at low current, it will start carrying more current, but that will make its forward drop rise, and the higher-rated diode will then start conducting more. (Unless the forward ratings of the two bridges are significantly different.) > I haven't looked at what the low-current bridge diodes are rated for, > perhaps it would work for the currents involved, but I think it looks bad > from a 'design principles' perspective. I won't claim that it's great, but I've seen it done in many pieces of equipment, and haven't ever actually seen a problem result from it. > If one were willing to modify the C64 you could open the ground lead of > the existing bridge (so that you have two half-bridges for the two > positive sides, and one half-bridge for the ground side). That will cause a worse problem than the one you're trying to solve. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 1 15:29:31 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43359.64.62.206.10.1214944171.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: > If there's actual items that require AC (transformers, things that > generate clocks from the AC), then, of course, it won't work. It won't work because it feeds a voltage doubler. The 9VAC is also provided to an expansion connector, so any number of accessories might not work either. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jul 1 16:22:15 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:22:15 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <486A70C5.8090600@jbrain.com> References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> <486A384D.1060006@gmail.com> <486A70C5.8090600@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <486AA007.7070408@gjcp.net> Jim Brain wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> * I don't think, anyway. Some of them do seem to have an 'aux'-type >> output that the user can tweak to their own spec, though. >> > Late in the game, CBM switched (no pun intended) to switchers. I have a > C128 PSU that is a switcher. They were mounted in the same case, but > you can tell by the weight. These are third-party, in a case more-or-less reminiscent of the old style C64/VIC-20 PSU, but definitely lighter. Gordon From brianjp50 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Jul 1 07:34:48 2008 From: brianjp50 at tiscali.co.uk (brianjp50 at tiscali.co.uk) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:34:48 +0100 (GMT+01:00) Subject: Interak Message-ID: <22887497.1214915688671.JavaMail.root@ps25> Hi Errol just found your post regarding surplus Interak kit. I suppose it has gone long time ago. If not email me bacjk and we can talk. Regards Brian __________________________________________________________ Free games from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play __________________________________________________________ From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jul 1 16:49:17 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:49:17 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <486AA007.7070408@gjcp.net> References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> <486A384D.1060006@gmail.com> <486A70C5.8090600@jbrain.com> <486AA007.7070408@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <486AA65D.6060202@jbrain.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: > >>> * I don't think, anyway. Some of them do seem to have an 'aux'-type >>> output that the user can tweak to their own spec, though. >>> >> Late in the game, CBM switched (no pun intended) to switchers. I >> have a C128 PSU that is a switcher. They were mounted in the same >> case, but you can tell by the weight. > > These are third-party, in a case more-or-less reminiscent of the old > style C64/VIC-20 PSU, but definitely lighter. > > Gordon are you referring to mine? If so, I will check for sure, but I am almost positive there are actual CBM HD power supplies. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 1 17:20:40 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: making C64 power supplies Message-ID: In case anyone's interested, there is quite a bit of material on building replacement C64 power supplies at http://www.midibox.org/. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 1 21:34:02 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:34:02 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200807012234.03033.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 01 July 2008 13:48, Eric J Korpela wrote: > I haven't looked at the AC circuitry in the C64, is it dependent on > the input being AC? I've a fair amount of equipment that ships with > an AC wall wart that is perfectly fine with DC. If all the AC is > doing is feeding a rectifier that can handle the full current through > any path, DC would probably do the job. > > If there's actual items that require AC (transformers, things that > generate clocks from the AC), then, of course, it won't work. One of the things it feeds is a voltage doubler circuit the output of which is fed to the 7812 +12V regulator. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 1 21:35:24 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:35:24 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <486A70C5.8090600@jbrain.com> References: <486A384D.1060006@gmail.com> <486A70C5.8090600@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200807012235.25045.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 01 July 2008 14:00, Jim Brain wrote: > Late in the game, CBM switched (no pun intended) to switchers. I have a > C128 PSU that is a switcher. They were mounted in the same case, but > you can tell by the weight. I don't recall ever seeing a 128 PS that wasn't a switcher. The 128D had it inside the case with the computer, rather than separate in a "brick", but it wasn't that different, just a little more spread out. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jul 1 23:13:56 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 23:13:56 -0500 Subject: making C64 power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486B0084.6060509@oldskool.org> David Griffith wrote: > In case anyone's interested, there is quite a bit of material on building > replacement C64 power supplies at http://www.midibox.org/. I searched the site for "power" and found nothing...? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 07:28:18 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:28:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RFC re Willem EEPROM programmers In-Reply-To: <4869253E.3080802@mdrconsult.com> References: <4869253E.3080802@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: > 1) I know a few folks on the list have willem boards. What board version do > you have, where did you get it (if you remember), and are there any major > pros and cons? I bought a Sivava programmer, which is quite similar to the Willem PCB4.5. The good news is that it was cheap (purchased directly from mfr in Thailand), well built and arrived quickly. The bad news is that the documentation is a mess and technical support from the vendor non-existant. They have a perfect record of not replying to e-mails. The folks on the Willem.org message board are quite helpful and supportive, though. Cons: The board has a USB connector on it, but this is just for +5V power. Don't even think about using it. Most USB ports cannot supply enough current. There's a stand wall-wart coax plug for a 12V external supply. That's what you should plan on. The unit uses a small DC/DC step-up converter to provide, e.g 21V for programming 2732s and the like. There are some known issues with quality of power and regulation. The vendor took a free design and software package, which unfortunately were not under GPL, and made them closed and proprietary. He does not participate in the community and will not answer questions regarding any of his updates or changes. This has caused some hard feelings. There are some questionable design shortcuts, primary of which is the decision to drop only the VCCp voltage to 3.3V for newer parts while driving the inputs of the device-under-programming from 5V TTL logic. Not a good bet for longevity. I ended up buying a little parts kit from one of the Willem message board regulars to replace the entire power supply with one that's been properly designed. Now, I have to provide, e.g. 23V externally to program a 2732A, but it's a stable situation with no cutting of corners. The VCCp on the the board is normally switched through a small PNP transistor that inserts a non-linear voltage drop as a function of current. The kit adds a little relay to directly switch VCCp and avoid the drop. At $80 US delivered, I don't feel it was necessarily a bad investment but go into it with your eyes open and with reasonable expectations. > 2) Does anybody here have experience with Kee Electronics? > > http://www.keeelectronics.com/ > > I'd rather buy direct than off eBay, and they look like a good product > line. Never heard of them. You can deal direct with Sivava through their web site, FWIW. > 3) Yes, I know the software's Windows-only. If anybody knows of a sub-$100 > programmer with OS X software, I'd be overjoyed to hear about it. Otherwise, > BFD; I have to keep a Windows box for work anyhow. I just bit the bullet and use an old Dell box running Win98 to run the programmer. The heck with Open Source purity. Steve -- From marozzi at asu.edu Tue Jul 1 16:57:03 2008 From: marozzi at asu.edu (William Marozzi) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:57:03 -0700 Subject: Sony MP-F52W-00D needed Message-ID: <623006430807011457l54c2105ma3f82c5e610c3881@mail.gmail.com> Do you happen to know where I can locate one of these drives? Thank you, Bill -- William Marozzi Engineer Principal Department of Electronic Systems Arizona State University at the Polytechnic Campus From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jul 2 01:32:06 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 23:32:06 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <48694696.4040504@axeside.co.uk> References: <48682411.9070504@arachelian.com> <200806292026.27785.rtellason@verizon.net> <48694696.4040504@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Philip Belben wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> The 9VAC has to be a separate transformer winding from the one that >> provides the +5VDC eventually, because of how it's used... > > There are plenty of transformers around with two 9V secondaries. I'd reckon > on using on of at least 20VA rating even if you have a switching regulator. Oddly enough, whereas two 9V secondary windings seem common in the UK, I'm having a VERY difficult time finding one in the US. I suppose it's got something to do with the fact that UK/European transformers are stepping down from 230V mains, where the North American ones are stepping down from 110-120V mains. I have been able to find transformers with a 115 V primary winding and two 18 V secondary windings with center taps. I assume I can use the center taps, but honestly I'm not sure. Time to consult some higher authorities! (i.e., Chapter 6 of "The Art of Electronics" and Chapter 17 of "The ARRL Handbook"!) -Seth From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 2 02:34:10 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:34:10 +0200 Subject: Connecting IBM GXT550P to SGI monitor. In-Reply-To: <20080630185025.GA54321@traszkan.ds7> References: <20080630185025.GA54321@traszkan.ds7> Message-ID: <20080702093410.b007550c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:50:25 +0200 Edward Tomasz Napierala wrote: > Is there any way to connect 13W3 output of GXP550P (graphics card > in RS/6000 p43) to 13W3 SGI monitor (GDM-20E21)? In order to connect > SPARCstation I had to make a little modification of the SS2 to make > it generate sync-on-green signal. Will the same modification work > with IBM? Most likely not as the Sun generates C-Sync. The IBM machine generates either Sync on Green or separate H/V-Sync. Just try. Connect the RGB-leads and wait to get a picture. If you get one, the IBM does Sync on green and you are done. If not it does separate H/V-Sync. In that case you have to build a custom cable. Google for pinouts. The SGI CRTs are Sony OEM Trinitron CRTs. To my experience the Sonys sync to anything they can find. C-Sync, H/V-Sync or Sync on Green, what ever they get as long as the monitor can take the timing. -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 2 02:50:01 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 02:50:01 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <200807012235.25045.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <486A384D.1060006@gmail.com> <486A70C5.8090600@jbrain.com> <200807012235.25045.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <486B3329.1010606@jbrain.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 01 July 2008 14:00, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Late in the game, CBM switched (no pun intended) to switchers. I have a >> C128 PSU that is a switcher. They were mounted in the same case, but >> you can tell by the weight. >> > > I don't recall ever seeing a 128 PS that wasn't a switcher. The 128D had it > inside the case with the computer, rather than separate in a "brick", but > it wasn't that different, just a little more spread out. > > OK, I stand corrected. I finally got home tonight, and was smug enough to go out and pull the units. First, the lightweight PSU I have with a C128 is not a C128 PSU at all, but a A500 PSU. I am sure we tested the PSU with a C128 last week (we were going through the units prior to the C4 CBM EXPO this past weekend), but I'll have to check. The reason's it is so light is it only provides DC on the outputs. 5 and +-12. It simply chops mains to get what it needs, I would guess. The other C128 PSUs are heavy as a common brick, and Roy looks to be right. They have what looks like a switcher under the huge transformer. My apologies for the incorrect information. I would assume the C64 HD PSUs (being the same as the C128 PSU, just a different plug, use the same switcher design. I could swear, though, that the older non-serviceable 64 PSUs are not switchers. I have somewhere here in the stash a schematic for a MA701 PSU, that looks to be a HD linear for the 64. I have a couple of the units. Is the OP looking to just buy one, or is the design the big thing? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jul 2 03:45:27 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:45:27 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20080702084527.GA16136@gjcp.net> On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 03:59:32AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Just to confirm : There are mains swithces, yes? There is no > mains-frequency trandormer in them, rather the mains is recrtified, > smoothed, and then chopped/ I've never had one apart. If there's a mains transformer inside then it must be tiny, because the power supplies are lighter than any linear power supply I have. I suppose it's possible that the transformer is quite small - what's the current draw on the 9V AC line anyway Gordon From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 2 03:58:20 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 01:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Willem programmer hackery Message-ID: This discussion of chip programmers prompted me to try yet again to find something useful for programming chips using Linux. I found the software info page at www.willem.org which states that the DOS version of the controlling software is kept current. Now, suppose we run FreeDOS on a tiny x86 board talking out the rs232 port... -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 2 04:05:47 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:05:47 +0000 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? Message-ID: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> Hi, all, I'm in the middle of getting two bare PET boards working, one static, one dynamic. I don't have great honking transformers lying around, so the easiest way to power them is going to be a bench-top DC supply. One thing that makes this a little easier is that I don't need to worry about cassette motor power in this configuration - no tape drives and no tapes. The static PET is easy - it has a few TO-220 7805s on it (which were removed to get the very tall heat sinks off for easier packing and shipping). I am not even sure I need +12VDC for that one - I don't think I do - just +5VDC at a few amps (also made easier because it came with no ROMs and no SRAMs, so I'm using one of Nicholas Welte's ROM/RAM boards that sits in the CPU socket). The dynamic PET, since it has soldered-in DRAMs, is a bit more complicated. Unless I care to remove the DRAM and fit another ROM/RAM board for the SRAM or adapt a 62256 in some other way, I need +12V and -5V for Vdd and Vbb on the 4116 chips. My question (after all this background info) is... does anyone have enough knowledge of the ICL7660 chip to give an opinion on how well it would work for supplying -5VDC? Looking at datasheets, the max draw I can find on Intel uP416s is 200uA @ -5VDC (along with all its other needs). It looks like the ICL7660 will provide up to 10mA @ -5VDC, but at some higher amount of inefficiency than at lower draws. 16x0.200 is 3.2mA, well under the max draw of the ICL7660, so I think I'm OK, but I wanted to ask other folks about this in case I'm overlooking some important detail. I do have a real C= keyboard that made it before the last plane, and I plan to build either a 74LS86 or 4066-based video adapter to drive a standard monochrome security monitor (that I saved from being discarded two years ago), so keyboard and video are taken care of (plus I have a "C=Key" board that I probably have time to assemble to try using a modern keyboard with). For a base PET, besides video and keyboard, the only other issue is power, thus my question. If the DRAM were socketed, I'd probably just pull it and use a 62256 in the ROM/RAM board and be done with it, but it might just be easier to feed this board +5V and +12V and synthesize the -5V, unless it turns out that I have a bad DRAM chip - then it's time to yank them like a bad tooth (though I _think_ I know where I can find a few 4116 chips on a shelf here if it comes down to just one or two chips). If I were home, it would be easy - I'd pull out a board from one of my PETs, drop these boards in there at least for testing, then see about mounting them in a box of some sort. Now, at least, the only C= stuff I have are these boards and a few loose parts (like 65C02s and 65C22s). One memory that's filtering up to the surface is that ISTR some order-of-DC-powerup requirement for 4116s, like don't apply -5V first or remove it last or some such. I plan to power the ICL7660 off of the +5V rail, but if there is a very specific order that really matters, I might consider running it off the +12V rail (with a 78L05 in-between) instead. Thanks for any input or observations on the ICL7660 and/or 4116s. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jul-2008 at 08:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83.7 F (-64.3 C) Windchill -114.0 F (-81.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 58 Barometer 678.1 mb (10700 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 07:30:00 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:30:00 -0400 Subject: Connecting IBM GXT550P to SGI monitor. In-Reply-To: <20080630185025.GA54321@traszkan.ds7> References: <20080630185025.GA54321@traszkan.ds7> Message-ID: <486B74C8.4030704@gmail.com> Edward Tomasz Napierala wrote: > Is there any way to connect 13W3 output of GXP550P (graphics card > in RS/6000 p43) to 13W3 SGI monitor (GDM-20E21)? In order to connect > SPARCstation I had to make a little modification of the SS2 to make > it generate sync-on-green signal. Will the same modification work > with IBM? I'm pretty sure that the SOG signal should already be there. The way I'd do it is to hook: 13w3 -> IBM Cable -> 3BNC -> BNC Couplers -> 3BNC -> SGI Cable -> 13w3 It's one sure way to get the pinouts right. Peace... Sridhar From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jul 2 07:44:46 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:44:46 -0300 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> Message-ID: <2e6301c8dc41$aace9770$160c010a@portajara> > Thanks for any input or observations on the ICL7660 and/or 4116s. Dear Penguim, wouldn't that be easier to just use a PC power supply? You'll have -5 and -12 at you disposition :) From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 08:57:09 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 06:57:09 -0700 Subject: Colorado Memory Systems Jumperless Tape Controller In-Reply-To: <486A190B.10441.4D2A585@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200807011700.m61H04ZT076150@dewey.classiccmp.org> <486A190B.10441.4D2A585@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90807020657l6ad441f7k19b1ce0aa304a41a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I think I've got that one as well as the 2Mb/sec follow-on one in my > hellbox. IIRC, it sets the DMA/port/IRQ via the ISA-PNP mechanism > (which accounts for the extra logic). > The Colorado Memory Systems Jumperless Tape Controller 026-328 PCB has a copyright date of 1990, which predates the ISAPNP specification by 4 years so it must use a proprietary configuration method. > Depending on the exact date code and stepping of the 82077, the card > may or may not support writing FM-encoded data. > If it supports FM that would make it useful. -Glen From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 2 09:33:49 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:33:49 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <48694696.4040504@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <200807021033.49970.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 02 July 2008, Seth Morabito wrote: > Oddly enough, whereas two 9V secondary windings seem common in the > UK, I'm having a VERY difficult time finding one in the US. I > suppose it's got something to do with the fact that UK/European > transformers are stepping down from 230V mains, where the North > American ones are stepping down from 110-120V mains. This may work for you: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TX-1616/TRANSFORMER-16VCT/1.6A-OR-8V/3.2A/1.html Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gil at baudot.net Wed Jul 2 10:14:32 2008 From: gil at baudot.net (gil smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:14:32 -0700 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Hi Ethan: I use the 7660 all the time -- it needs two 100uF caps -- works great! Can't draw a lot of current, but if the spec fits it is a great solution. There is a bit of switching noise (at about the switching freq of 5 to 10 KHz, IIRC), but it is usually not a problem. There is some loss, which goes up as you load the device; ie: if you drive it from +5.0V and load it lightly, you will get close to -5.0V, but as you draw more current it will drop down to almost -4.0V. You can compensate for this by driving it with about +6V instead (eg: a 78L05 with a diode or two stuck in the ground lead). Another was to go is to use a real switcher like an LM2674M-5.0, but configured for -5 instead of +5 -- I use this chip all the time too for both pos and neg 5V -- very efficient. Drive from unreg volage (eg: +12 to +20 or so); you also need a 100uH inductor, a schottky diode, and a few caps. Pricier, but can efficiently source up to an amp. gil smith Who is still looking for a Cromemco SCC board, BTW folks. At 02:05 AM 7/2/2008, you wrote: >Hi, all, > >I'm in the middle of getting two bare PET boards working, one static, one >dynamic. I don't have great honking transformers lying around, so the >easiest way to power them is going to be a bench-top DC supply. One thing >that makes this a little easier is that I don't need to worry about cassette >motor power in this configuration - no tape drives and no tapes. > >The static PET is easy - it has a few TO-220 7805s on it (which were removed >to get the very tall heat sinks off for easier packing and shipping). I >am not even sure I need +12VDC for that one - I don't think I do - just +5VDC >at a few amps (also made easier because it came with no ROMs and no SRAMs, >so I'm using one of Nicholas Welte's ROM/RAM boards that sits in the CPU >socket). > >The dynamic PET, since it has soldered-in DRAMs, is a bit more complicated. >Unless I care to remove the DRAM and fit another ROM/RAM board for the SRAM >or adapt a 62256 in some other way, I need +12V and -5V for Vdd and Vbb on >the 4116 chips. My question (after all this background info) is... does >anyone have enough knowledge of the ICL7660 chip to give an opinion on how >well it would work for supplying -5VDC? Looking at datasheets, the max >draw I can find on Intel uP416s is 200uA @ -5VDC (along with all its other >needs). It looks like the ICL7660 will provide up to 10mA @ -5VDC, but at >some higher amount of inefficiency than at lower draws. 16x0.200 is 3.2mA, >well under the max draw of the ICL7660, so I think I'm OK, but I wanted to >ask other folks about this in case I'm overlooking some important detail. > >I do have a real C= keyboard that made it before the last plane, and I >plan to build either a 74LS86 or 4066-based video adapter to drive a >standard monochrome security monitor (that I saved from being discarded >two years ago), so keyboard and video are taken care of (plus I have a >"C=Key" board that I probably have time to assemble to try using a >modern keyboard with). For a base PET, besides video and keyboard, the >only other issue is power, thus my question. > >If the DRAM were socketed, I'd probably just pull it and use a 62256 >in the ROM/RAM board and be done with it, but it might just be easier >to feed this board +5V and +12V and synthesize the -5V, unless it >turns out that I have a bad DRAM chip - then it's time to yank them >like a bad tooth (though I _think_ I know where I can find a few 4116 >chips on a shelf here if it comes down to just one or two chips). If >I were home, it would be easy - I'd pull out a board from one of my PETs, >drop these boards in there at least for testing, then see about mounting >them in a box of some sort. Now, at least, the only C= stuff I have are >these boards and a few loose parts (like 65C02s and 65C22s). > >One memory that's filtering up to the surface is that ISTR some >order-of-DC-powerup requirement for 4116s, like don't apply -5V >first or remove it last or some such. I plan to power the ICL7660 >off of the +5V rail, but if there is a very specific order that >really matters, I might consider running it off the +12V rail >(with a 78L05 in-between) instead. > >Thanks for any input or observations on the ICL7660 and/or 4116s. > >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jul-2008 at 08:40 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83.7 F (-64.3 C) Windchill -114.0 F (-81.1 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 58 Barometer 678.1 mb (10700 ft) > >Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html Vaux Electronics, Inc. 480-354-5556 (fax: 480-354-5558) www.vauxelectronics.com From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 2 10:50:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:50:10 +0000 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Message-ID: <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 08:14:32AM -0700, gil smith wrote: > Hi Ethan: > > I use the 7660 all the time -- it needs two 100uF caps -- works > great! Can't draw a lot of current, but if the spec fits it is a great > solution. Right. I've used them before, but mostly for negative LCD bias voltage for HD44780-type LCDs - they don't need much current at all (I think I was using 10uF caps, but 100uF is no problem to find). > There is a bit of switching noise (at about the switching freq of 5 to 10 > KHz, IIRC), but it is usually not a problem. Probably won't be an issue for this application. > There is some loss, which goes up as you load the device; ie: if you > drive it from +5.0V and load it lightly, you will get close to -5.0V, but > as you draw more current it will drop down to almost -4.0V. Right. That was what I was a little concerned by - 16 DRAMs do add up to some measurable current, even at 100-200uA each. What I wasn't sure about is how quickly the ICL7660 drops off in a real application (vs a nice clean curve on a spec sheet). > You can > compensate for this by driving it with about +6V instead (eg: a 78L05 with > a diode or two stuck in the ground lead). Hmm... Hadn't thought of that trick; that might be handy if I need a little boost. > Another was to go is to use a real switcher like an LM2674M-5.0, but > configured for -5 instead of +5 -- I use this chip all the time too for > both pos and neg 5V -- very efficient. Drive from unreg volage (eg: +12 to > +20 or so); you also need a 100uH inductor, a schottky diode, and a few > caps. Pricier, but can efficiently source up to an amp. I've seen mini-switchers like that in the past, 5 lead T-220 package, IIRC, but I don't happen to have any handy, and I wouldn't be able to get an order from Digikey for nearly 4 months in any case. I have to use what's on hand. Tonight, in preparation, I've been scraping off the broken wire stubs and such from a previous owner's attempt to hack more memory onto it. It looks like he mostly added external wires and only cut two or three traces, but after I hit the old flux with some cleaner, the board should look nearly good as new. One thing I hope to find on funet/zimmers.net tomorrow when the 'net comes up is a copy of the diag ROM at $9000 that's part of the offical C= diagnostic dongle - I have one at home, a 40-pin clip for the CPU that you clamp on, then press reset, then unclamp - inside is a '138 decoder and a 2716 EPROM - according to the docs, the clip forces the CPU to execute at $9xxx not $Fxxx so it can pick up the ROM contents, then it copies itself somewhere (zero page?) and performs some rudimentary diagnostics. It's not as good as plugging in a Fluke 9010A, but for a machine that mostly works (CPU, low mem, video, decode logic...) it's a quick way to test things. Fortunately, there's room in the RAM/ROM board for several sets of ROMs (it uses a 29F010 FLASH with a DIP switch and a PAL), so even if I don't find the official C= diagnostic pod code, I'm sure I can bang something out pretty quickly and drop it into the FLASH instead of the official ROM code at $Fxxx. If anyone has any comments on 4116 voltage "gotchas", I'd still love to hear about them. Thanks for the reply, Gil, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jul-2008 at 15:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.1 F (-61.7 C) Windchill -114.0 F (-81.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.7 kts Grid 33 Barometer 680.4 mb (10613 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 2 10:54:35 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:54:35 +0000 Subject: *48*? pin Cinch connector? (HP 5060-8339?) Message-ID: <20080702155435.GB22228@usap.gov> Hi, All, I was going through a box of old stuff and ran across something I've ever seen before - a 48-pin 0.156" Cinch connector w/cable hood. From my Commodore days, I've seen lots of 6 and 12 and 44-pin connectors, but not 48. One telling thing is in fine print on the documentation is the legend "HP Part No 5060-8339". It suggests to me that it might be useful for something in the HP1000 or HP2000 era, if I remember anything about the innards. So, Jay, or other HP fans... does this sound like a familiar connector? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jul-2008 at 15:49 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -75.6 F (-59.8 C) Windchill -109.7 F (-78.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.7 kts Grid 39 Barometer 680.5 mb (10609 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 11:36:23 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:36:23 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <48694696.4040504@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <200807021236.23974.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 July 2008 02:32, Seth Morabito wrote: > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Philip Belben wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> The 9VAC has to be a separate transformer winding from the one that > >> provides the +5VDC eventually, because of how it's used... > > > > There are plenty of transformers around with two 9V secondaries. I'd > > reckon on using on of at least 20VA rating even if you have a switching > > regulator. > > Oddly enough, whereas two 9V secondary windings seem common in the UK, > I'm having a VERY difficult time finding one in the US. I suppose > it's got something to do with the fact that UK/European transformers > are stepping down from 230V mains, where the North American ones are > stepping down from 110-120V mains. > > I have been able to find transformers with a 115 V primary winding and > two 18 V secondary windings with center taps. I assume I can use the > center taps, but honestly I'm not sure. Time to consult some higher > authorities! (i.e., Chapter 6 of "The Art of Electronics" and Chapter > 17 of "The ARRL Handbook"!) Which chapter depends on what edition of the handbook. :-) If you're talking about a full-wave (4-diode) bridge across a 9V winding you can get the same result by using two diodes with an 18V winding. For the other, where what you want is only 9VAC, you can use half the winding, just one end and the center tap and not use the other end. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 11:40:27 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:40:27 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <486B3329.1010606@jbrain.com> References: <200807012235.25045.rtellason@verizon.net> <486B3329.1010606@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200807021240.27645.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 July 2008 03:50, Jim Brain wrote: > I could swear, though, that the older non-serviceable 64 PSUs are not > switchers. Yup. I did take a couple of those apart, though eventually I decided that it just wasn't worth the hassle to try and get past all that potting compound, and what's in there is a fuse (!), a 5V regulator running of a bridge, etc. like you'd expect for a simple linear supply. One of the funnier aspects of it is that there were some where the heatsink for the regulator went along one short side and both long sides, and others where the heatsink only went partway along the long sides, I guess they figured they could cut corners there too? When we had the shop we had such a pile of those that at one point I used to joke about how I was gonna stick 'em all together and make a lawn sculpture for them down there in West Chester... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 11:41:51 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:41:51 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20080702084527.GA16136@gjcp.net> References: <20080701082342.GA7692@gjcp.net> <20080702084527.GA16136@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200807021241.51644.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 July 2008 04:45, gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 03:59:32AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Just to confirm : There are mains swithces, yes? There is no > > mains-frequency trandormer in them, rather the mains is recrtified, > > smoothed, and then chopped/ > > I've never had one apart. If there's a mains transformer inside then it > must be tiny, because the power supplies are lighter than any linear > power supply I have. I suppose it's possible that the transformer is > quite small - what's the current draw on the 9V AC line anyway I believe it's spec'd at 1A, if we're still talking about the original c64 supply here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 11:46:36 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:46:36 -0400 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200807021246.36482.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 July 2008 05:05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The dynamic PET, since it has soldered-in DRAMs, is a bit more complicated. > Unless I care to remove the DRAM and fit another ROM/RAM board for the SRAM > or adapt a 62256 in some other way, I need +12V and -5V for Vdd and Vbb on > the 4116 chips. My question (after all this background info) is... does > anyone have enough knowledge of the ICL7660 chip to give an opinion on how > well it would work for supplying -5VDC? Looking at datasheets, the max > draw I can find on Intel uP416s is 200uA @ -5VDC (along with all its other > needs). It looks like the ICL7660 will provide up to 10mA @ -5VDC, but at > some higher amount of inefficiency than at lower draws. 16x0.200 is 3.2mA, > well under the max draw of the ICL7660, so I think I'm OK, but I wanted to > ask other folks about this in case I'm overlooking some important detail. That might be workable in terms of current draw, but that's not what I'd be worried about there. I'm not real sure about the 4116 chips, but I seem to recall that at least some of that early stuff that needed multiple supplies needed to have that Vbb supply present _first_ and going away _last_. It's getting it to come up first that I'd be worried about.... (Snip) > One memory that's filtering up to the surface is that ISTR some > order-of-DC-powerup requirement for 4116s, like don't apply -5V > first or remove it last or some such. I plan to power the ICL7660 > off of the +5V rail, but if there is a very specific order that > really matters, I might consider running it off the +12V rail > (with a 78L05 in-between) instead. Just what I was thinking, above. But it's been so long that I really don't remember in detail. It might not even have been the 4116 I was thinking of, as there were a bunch of other chips that used multiple power supplies like that, the 2708 coming to mind as well. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gil at baudot.net Wed Jul 2 12:24:22 2008 From: gil at baudot.net (gil smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:24:22 -0700 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080702100540.0274deb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> At 08:50 AM 7/2/2008, you wrote: >On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 08:14:32AM -0700, gil smith wrote: > > Hi Ethan: > > > > I use the 7660 all the time -- it needs two 100uF caps -- works > > great! Can't draw a lot of current, but if the spec fits it is a great > > solution. > >Right. I've used them before, but mostly for negative LCD bias voltage >for HD44780-type LCDs - they don't need much current at all (I think I >was using 10uF caps, but 100uF is no problem to find). Yeah, it probably uses 10uF in the spec, but we standardize on a minimal number of component values, and 100u works just fine, so less unique parts to deal with for us -- whatever you have on hand should work for you. Likewise, the 2674 specs a .01 uf feedback cap, but .1 works just fine. I think one of the 7660's caps sees +/-5V switching for 10V total, IIRC, so don't put a 6V part in there. Also, I think the standard 7660 is good up to about 10V input. There is a higher-volt part that I believe is a 7660S -- should work fine at 5 or 6V input too, if that is what you scrounge up from your parts box. > Another was to go is to use a real switcher like an LM2674M-5.0, but > > configured for -5 instead of +5 -- I use this chip all the time too for > > both pos and neg 5V -- very efficient. Drive from unreg volage (eg: > +12 to > > +20 or so); you also need a 100uH inductor, a schottky diode, and a few > > caps. Pricier, but can efficiently source up to an amp. > >I've seen mini-switchers like that in the past, 5 lead T-220 package, >IIRC, but I don't happen to have any handy, and I wouldn't be able to >get an order from Digikey for nearly 4 months in any case. I have >to use what's on hand. The 2674 is an 8-pin dip or soic. Nice part. Are you really at the South Pole? 4 months to get stuff from digikey? Must be UPS (underwater parcel service). gil Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jul-2008 at 15:30 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.1 F (-61.7 C) Windchill -114.0 F (-81.1 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 8.7 kts Grid 33 Barometer 680.4 mb (10613 ft) > >Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html Vaux Electronics, Inc. 480-354-5556 (fax: 480-354-5558) www.vauxelectronics.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 2 12:33:56 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:33:56 -0400 Subject: *48*? pin Cinch connector? (HP 5060-8339?) In-Reply-To: <20080702155435.GB22228@usap.gov> References: <20080702155435.GB22228@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was going through a box of old stuff and ran across something I've > ever seen before - a 48-pin 0.156" Cinch connector w/cable hood. From > my Commodore days, I've seen lots of 6 and 12 and 44-pin connectors, > but not 48. One telling thing is in fine print on the documentation > is the legend "HP Part No 5060-8339". It suggests to me that it might > be useful for something in the HP1000 or HP2000 era, if I remember > anything about the innards. Doesn't that part number suggest that it might have been used in the HP 5060 cesium beam oscillator? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 2 12:41:21 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:41:21 -0400 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> There is some loss, which goes up as you load the device; ie: if >> you >> drive it from +5.0V and load it lightly, you will get close to >> -5.0V, but >> as you draw more current it will drop down to almost -4.0V. > > Right. That was what I was a little concerned by - 16 DRAMs do add up > to some measurable current, even at 100-200uA each. What I wasn't > sure > about is how quickly the ICL7660 drops off in a real application (vs a > nice clean curve on a spec sheet). DRAM chips tend to draw spikes of current during refresh, as those little capacitors get charged. If you have adequate low-impedance bypassing to supply those short-term demands, things should be fine with the 7660. It's a fairly predictable and dependable chip. > I've seen mini-switchers like that in the past, 5 lead T-220 package, > IIRC, but I don't happen to have any handy, and I wouldn't be able to > get an order from Digikey for nearly 4 months in any case. I have > to use what's on hand. Good heavens, one would think you're in Antarctica or something. Oh, wait.. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 2 12:48:43 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:48:43 +0000 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080702174843.GA12879@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 01:41:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > DRAM chips tend to draw spikes of current during refresh, as those > little capacitors get charged. Sure... I'm used to that with +5V-only chips like the 4164 and up, but I don't have any design experience with the multi-voltage parts, thus my caution. > If you have adequate low-impedance > bypassing to supply those short-term demands, things should be fine > with the 7660. It's a fairly predictable and dependable chip. By low-impedance bypassing, you mean monolithic (not electrolytic) caps, or do you mean something else? > >... I wouldn't be able to get an order from Digikey for nearly 4 > > months in any case. I have to use what's on hand. > > Good heavens, one would think you're in Antarctica or something. > > Oh, wait.. ;) Yes... ;) indeed. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jul-2008 at 17:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.9 F (-63.3 C) Windchill -121.1 F (-85.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.8 kts Grid 46 Barometer 680.7 mb (10602 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 2 12:51:03 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:51:03 +0000 Subject: *48*? pin Cinch connector? (HP 5060-8339?) In-Reply-To: References: <20080702155435.GB22228@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080702175103.GB12879@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 01:33:56PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I was going through a box of old stuff and ran across something I've > >ever seen before - a 48-pin 0.156" Cinch connector w/cable hood... > >(with the) legend "HP Part No 5060-8339". It suggests to me that it might > >be useful for something in the HP1000 or HP2000 era... > > Doesn't that part number suggest that it might have been used in > the HP 5060 cesium beam oscillator? I don't have access to the 'net for another 4 hours, or I'd look up the HP 5060 myself, but that doesn't sound like an unreasonable piece of equipment to have had here once. I do know we used to have a pair of HP1000s (that I posted about late last year), so I was just guessing about that bit. There's not much HP stuff of recent vintage here, but I'm sure 15+ years ago, it was a different story. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jul-2008 at 17:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.9 F (-63.3 C) Windchill -121.1 F (-85.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.8 kts Grid 46 Barometer 680.7 mb (10602 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 2 13:48:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:48:45 -0700 Subject: Colorado Memory Systems Jumperless Tape Controller In-Reply-To: <200807021700.m62H07AB094078@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807021700.m62H07AB094078@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <486B6B1D.9671.9FB38ED@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 06:57:09 -0700 > From: "Glen Slick" > The Colorado Memory Systems Jumperless Tape Controller 026-328 PCB has > a copyright date of 1990, which predates the ISAPNP specification by 4 > years so it must use a proprietary configuration method. Argh--bad memory bit--wrong floppytape controller! Yup--CMS used their own configuration protocol. Linux has a routine that's used by the ftape driver called fc-10.c that probes for the FC-10 and FC-20 controllers. I'm not sure if you have an FC-10, but it might be worth a try. The FC-20 that I have in front of me is PCB 026-121. I've got an FC-10 somewhere, but it'll take some time to dig it out if you're interested. FWIW, the FC-20 uses an Intel 82078 FDC to get 2Mbps. Now that I think about it, the FC-10 indeed wasn't PNP; you had to use a configuration program to set the I/O, IRQ and DMA options. Programs wanting to use the card simply probed a known range of I/O addresses to determine what the setup was. > If it supports FM that would make it useful. Maybe--it depends on the date code of the 82077AA. Earlier ones support FM fully; later ones don't. If the 82077AA is in a PLCC socket, you can replace it with the National equivalent (8477?) to get full FM support. But IMOHO, getting an FC-10/20 to work as a generic floppy controller seems like too much work to me. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 21:09:02 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 03:09:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <48694696.4040504@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Jun 30, 8 09:48:22 pm Message-ID: > There are plenty of transformers around with two 9V secondaries. I'd > reckon on using on of at least 20VA rating even if you have a switching > regulator. I'd proably go for overkill and get a 50VA one. But then I like over-rating power-handling components... > > I went on to the RS Components web site and found this, despite its > being an utter pig to search: > > http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=5405163 > > (Note for our American readers. RS Components is not Tandy, it's the > supplier formerly known as Radio Spares. People still sometimes call it I thought it was all one word -- Radiospares. I still have a few -- a very few -- components wih that name on them. > Radio Spares, although AFAIK that hasn't been its name for at least a > quarter century...) I believe the name changed in 1972. The RS sales reps get annoyed if you call them Radiospares, but everyone does :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 21:13:18 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 03:13:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sony MP-F52W-00D needed In-Reply-To: <623006430807011457l54c2105ma3f82c5e610c3881@mail.gmail.com> from "William Marozzi" at Jul 1, 8 02:57:03 pm Message-ID: > > Do you happen to know where I can locate one of these drives? A version of thia drive was used in the HP9114 drive unit (and I suspect in other HP peripherals). You can find 'my' schematics for the 9114B on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ and yes, I did include diagrams for the drive itself. Most of the special parts other than the digial ASIC are used on the Apple 800K dirve I think. That might be a useful source of spares. I have no idea what the different versions are. The one in the 9114B rotates at 600rpm (not the 300rpm of normal PC drives) and has the power supplies coming in on the odd-numbered pins of the 34 pin connector (no separate power connecotr). That can certainly be changed by soldered jumpers on the PCB (and there are pads for a normal 4 pin power connector). There also seems to be the capability to add a motorised eject mechanism. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 21:19:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 03:19:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: from "Seth Morabito" at Jul 1, 8 11:32:06 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Philip Belben wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> The 9VAC has to be a separate transformer winding from the one that > >> provides the +5VDC eventually, because of how it's used... > > > > There are plenty of transformers around with two 9V secondaries. I'd reckon > > on using on of at least 20VA rating even if you have a switching regulator. > > Oddly enough, whereas two 9V secondary windings seem common in the UK, > I'm having a VERY difficult time finding one in the US. I suppose > it's got something to do with the fact that UK/European transformers > are stepping down from 230V mains, where the North American ones are > stepping down from 110-120V mains. That shouldn't make any difference (you can wind the primary winding for any input voltage, and have any combination of secondary windings that you like). In fact many (although not all) transofrmers sold in the UK have a pair of 115V primary windings which you connect in series for 230V or parallel for 115V input. Note, of course, that when connecting windings together, the polarity _does_ matter. It is AC, but you need to get the phase correct. Otherwise you may end up effectively short-circuiting things and blowing fuses or worse. > > I have been able to find transformers with a 115 V primary winding and > two 18 V secondary windings with center taps. I assume I can use the > center taps, but honestly I'm not sure. Time to consult some higher You can, but you'd then only be using half of each secondary winding (you'd use the tap and one end, of course). You could use the whole of one winding to provide the pwoer for your 5V regulator, by using a biphase (2 diode) rather than a bridge rectifier. Can you get a trapsformer with 2 9V centre-tapped windings? You could simply ignore the taps then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 21:23:19 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 03:23:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <486B3329.1010606@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jul 2, 8 02:50:01 am Message-ID: > OK, I stand corrected. I finally got home tonight, and was smug enough > to go out and pull the units. > > First, the lightweight PSU I have with a C128 is not a C128 PSU at all, > but a A500 PSU. I am sure we tested the PSU with a C128 last week (we > were going through the units prior to the C4 CBM EXPO this past > weekend), but I'll have to check. The reason's it is so light is it > only provides DC on the outputs. 5 and +-12. It simply chops mains to > get what it needs, I would guess. The A500 PSU is, indeed, a conventional switcher. Rectifies the mains, chops it, feeds it into a transformer, rectifies the output, and has control feedback fro mthe 5V output to the chopper controller for regulation. The 12V outputs just 'tag along'. I thought it was very foolish of Commodore to have 2 PSUs with different outputs that used the same custom connector (a thing that looks like a square DIN plug). IIRC plugging the Amiga PSU into a C64 does no daamge (I can't remember if the machine basically works or not), pluggling the C64 PSU into an Amiga can do damage (applying 9V AC to DC rails). > > The other C128 PSUs are heavy as a common brick, and Roy looks to be > right. They have what looks like a switcher under the huge transformer. That's what my C128 PSU has. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 21:36:35 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 03:36:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: *48*? pin Cinch connector? (HP 5060-8339?) In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 2, 8 01:33:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I was going through a box of old stuff and ran across something I've > > ever seen before - a 48-pin 0.156" Cinch connector w/cable hood. From > > my Commodore days, I've seen lots of 6 and 12 and 44-pin connectors, > > but not 48. One telling thing is in fine print on the documentation > > is the legend "HP Part No 5060-8339". It suggests to me that it might > > be useful for something in the HP1000 or HP2000 era, if I remember > > anything about the innards. > > Doesn't that part number suggest that it might have been used in > the HP 5060 cesium beam oscillator? No, I don;t think so. HP component part numbers are off the form xxxx-xxxx (2 4-digit groups) where the first group essentially gives the type of component (1820 == digitial IC, 1826 == linear IC, 1853 == PNP transistor, 1854 == NPN transistor, 9100 == transformer, etc). HP subassembly part numbers are of the form xxxxx-xxxxx (2 5 digit groups), where the first group is the model number of the instrument/option where it was first used. For example, the CPU control board in an HP98x0 machine is an 09810-66513. It was first used in the HP9810 (and was also used in the 9820, 9830 and 9821). The fact that most HP transformers have 9100-zzzz numbers doesn't mean they were all used in the HP9100 calculator. I've seen plenty of HP hooded card edge connectors, ceertainl in 0.125" and 0.156" pitch (and problably 0.1" too). A common one is a 44 pin (22 pins each side) 0.125" one (very hard to find in non-HP stuff). As regards the 0.156" ones, I've certainly seen 15 pins/side and 18 pins/side ones used in HP instrumetns. 24 pins would not suprise me. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 16:24:34 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:24:34 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486BF212.3090806@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> OK, I stand corrected. I finally got home tonight, and was smug enough >> to go out and pull the units. >> >> First, the lightweight PSU I have with a C128 is not a C128 PSU at all, >> but a A500 PSU. I am sure we tested the PSU with a C128 last week (we >> were going through the units prior to the C4 CBM EXPO this past >> weekend), but I'll have to check. The reason's it is so light is it >> only provides DC on the outputs. 5 and +-12. It simply chops mains to >> get what it needs, I would guess. > > The A500 PSU is, indeed, a conventional switcher. JOOI, what changed between iterations of the A500 PSU? I had one A500 with a beige PSU that felt like it must have dark matter inside - my other one had a white/cream PSU which felt more like it was little more than an empty shell... Were the beige ones non-switchmode designs, with a heavy transformer, caps and big regulators or something? Or did they just have some serious heatsinks / screening? I never did take a look inside, but always meant to... From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 2 16:34:19 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:34:19 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486BF45B.5090304@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Personally I regard them as about the most dangerous thing around. I've > yet to see one with proper mains fusing, most don't have output > current limiting, and so on.One common type sold in the UK has a 4-way > cross-shapped plug on it (3.5mm jack, 2.5mm jack, 2.1mm coax, 2.5mm coax) > with separate 1.3mm coax ('Walkman' plug) and a 9V battery clip on the > same cable. It's very easy to get a short-circuited output if those > conenctors touch each other. It's even more "fun" when the 4-way is plugged into the power jack on a machine, and the 9V connector wipes against, say, an edge connector. Instant fried chips, and not the edible kind. That's pretty much how my Jupiter Ace got wrecked (and speaking of which, I *still* haven't managed to get in touch with the guy who was *supposed* to be repairing it....) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 16:34:58 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:34:58 -0700 Subject: *48*? pin Cinch connector? (HP 5060-8339?) In-Reply-To: <20080702155435.GB22228@usap.gov> References: <20080702155435.GB22228@usap.gov> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90807021434x79c7a568v470e357d29e79e5e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I was going through a box of old stuff and ran across something I've > ever seen before - a 48-pin 0.156" Cinch connector w/cable hood. From > my Commodore days, I've seen lots of 6 and 12 and 44-pin connectors, > but not 48. One telling thing is in fine print on the documentation > is the legend "HP Part No 5060-8339". It suggests to me that it might > be useful for something in the HP1000 or HP2000 era, if I remember > anything about the innards. > A 48-pin card edge connector is common on HP-1000 I/O interface boards, for example the 12531C and 12996A serial interfaces. From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Wed Jul 2 17:45:17 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:45:17 -0700 Subject: NeXT Computer Prototype (Seattle) In-Reply-To: <200807021700.m62H0pts094127@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807021700.m62H0pts094127@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <75A9875EBDBA443BB6EFBFB303F0A194@odin> I've got a full NeXT slab setup with monitor/keyboard/mouse. It's a basic slab the neat thing is it was a prototype. I compared it once to my other slab and the lettering/logo was a bit different and this one has prototype printed on it. I should even have the original power cord here somewhere and a short stack of original software and developer stuff (magazines, etc). Taking offers, I'd prefer to deal local and I'm not above trades but I mostly need the cash. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 20:13:22 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:13:22 -0700 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> <20080702174843.GA12879@usap.gov> Message-ID: <000b01c8dca9$fcdaca80$0301a8c0@hal9000> Ethan, According to the Motorola datasheet - " All voltages referenced to Vss ( 0V) and Vbb ( -5 Volts ) must be applied before and removed after other supply voltages ". What exacerbates things is that the current spikes from all the chips are perfectly lined up during the RAS* cycle, but the biggest hit is on the Vdd line ( +12 Volts ). If they don't already have a 0.1 uFd across each chip on the Vdd I'd add one. I agree the 7660 should be okay on the - 5 Volts. Also, don't think these will run at -63 C ( ha ha ha ). Stay warm, Best regards, Steven > On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 01:41:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > DRAM chips tend to draw spikes of current during refresh, as those > > little capacitors get charged. > > Sure... I'm used to that with +5V-only chips like the 4164 and > up, but I don't have any design experience with the multi-voltage > parts, thus my caution. > > > If you have adequate low-impedance > > bypassing to supply those short-term demands, things should be fine > > with the 7660. It's a fairly predictable and dependable chip. > > By low-impedance bypassing, you mean monolithic (not electrolytic) caps, > or do you mean something else? > > > >... I wouldn't be able to get an order from Digikey for nearly 4 > > > months in any case. I have to use what's on hand. > > > > Good heavens, one would think you're in Antarctica or something. > > > > Oh, wait.. ;) > > Yes... ;) indeed. > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jul-2008 at 17:40 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.9 F (-63.3 C) Windchill -121.1 F (-85.1 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 10.8 kts Grid 46 Barometer 680.7 mb (10602 ft) > > Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 21:29:33 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:29:33 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <486BF45B.5090304@philpem.me.uk> References: <486BF45B.5090304@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200807022229.33613.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 July 2008 17:34, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > Personally I regard them as about the most dangerous thing around. I've > > yet to see one with proper mains fusing, most don't have output > > current limiting, and so on.One common type sold in the UK has a 4-way > > cross-shapped plug on it (3.5mm jack, 2.5mm jack, 2.1mm coax, 2.5mm coax) > > with separate 1.3mm coax ('Walkman' plug) and a 9V battery clip on the > > same cable. It's very easy to get a short-circuited output if those > > conenctors touch each other. > > It's even more "fun" when the 4-way is plugged into the power jack on a > machine, and the 9V connector wipes against, say, an edge connector. > Instant fried chips, and not the edible kind. > > That's pretty much how my Jupiter Ace got wrecked (and speaking of which, I > *still* haven't managed to get in touch with the guy who was *supposed* to > be repairing it....) Then there was the customer who plugged his power supply in to the _back_ of his 64, in the only socket where it would fit -- the video connector. Funny how that works sometimes... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 21:31:24 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:31:24 -0400 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <000b01c8dca9$fcdaca80$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <20080702174843.GA12879@usap.gov> <000b01c8dca9$fcdaca80$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <200807022231.24861.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 July 2008 21:13, Scanning wrote: > According to the Motorola datasheet - " All voltages referenced to Vss ( > 0V) and Vbb ( -5 Volts ) must be applied before and removed after other > supply voltages ". Ah. I'd recalled that as being the case with some chips, but wasn't remembering whether that applied to the 4116 in particular... Nice to have it confirmed. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 2 21:36:14 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:36:14 -0400 Subject: IBM floppy drives Message-ID: <200807022236.14874.rtellason@verizon.net> I tore apart a couple of assemblies that came out of an IBM "SSA" setup, these had a small switch panel, LCD, keyswitch (useless since I don't have keys), and a floppy drive which, when I pulled it out, resembled a PS/2 style drive, though it did have a separate 4-pin power connector and no faceplate. The short ribbon cable in there went to a single connector (pin type) that had the power wiring coming out of it as well. Can anybody use these? I also have a regular PS/2 floppy drive as well, and no particular need for it. I'd corresponded with somebody about that a while back, pulled it out of the box it was in, and it never went anywhere. This one has the single card-edge connector in the back of it, and again no faceplate. Either of these items of interest, feel free to contact me off-list. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Jul 2 21:42:27 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple Lisa 1 - restoration project In-Reply-To: <20080630231629.e2e71e27.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20080630195553.026d2078.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20080630231629.e2e71e27.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: First, one of the elements of kosher is cleaning and severe cleaning to purify dishes, pots and utensils. Secondly, in the military, 'bug juice' powder, think Kool Aid straight from the packet, was soveriegn for cleaning cooking surfaces. bs On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:35:05 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Incidentally, I found some acetic acid (fairly concentrated too), in > > the 'Kosher' section of the local supermarket. I have no idea what > > the intended application of it is, but it's quite useful for cleaning > > up NiCd corrosion too. > Well. Actually acetic acid is the acid in vinegar. Most likely this > stuff is just pure acetic acid without any "flavor". > > Remember: If you are going to dilute concentrated acid _allways_ pour the acid into water. Never do it the other way around. Pouring water into concentrated acid may cause the water to heat up quite quick. High enough to make the water boil instantly. The result are drops of water and concentrated acid jumping around. Preferably onto your skin and into your eyes... > > > > (I use citric acid in the dark room because it doesn't smell.) > > As a stop bath? > Yes. Actually I use the special photo stuff with ph-indicator. But simple citric acid from the drug store does as well. It is much cheaper then the photo stuff. Unfortunately I got this knowledge after I had purchased the photo stuff already. > > Coca Cola should work too as it contains phosphoric acid. (For cleaning. I am surely not going to dip my fibre based photo paper in Coke. ;-) ) > > Obviously all this stuff works great to remove chalky deposit caused by > water evaporation. E.g. on the water cooling of your mainframe - or > your coffee machine or tee kettle. > -- > > > tsch__, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 2 21:45:10 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:45:10 -0700 Subject: Colorado Memory Systems Jumperless Tape Controller Message-ID: <486BDAC6.27211.BAF57D5@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 06:57:09 -0700 > From: "Glen Slick" > The Colorado Memory Systems Jumperless Tape Controller 026-328 PCB has > a copyright date of 1990, which predates the ISAPNP specification by 4 > years so it must use a proprietary configuration method. Went back through my notes--it's not the FC-10 or FC-20 from Colorado that's ISA PNP--it's the Exabyte "Floppy Tape Accelerator", PCB 317235-000 that's the PNP one. Circa 1996, using an 82078. Unlike the Colorado, there's no external drive connector. There are also empty pads for what I suspect might be a data compression processor chip. While both the Exabyte and Colorado 2Mb accelerator cards are nominally 16-bit ISA, the Exabyte uses only the 16-bit additional IRQ lines, while the Colorado uses both the 16-bit data and DMA lines in addition to the extra IRQs. Both cards use 48MHz XCOs. The brief user documentation for both state that they can be used in 8-bit slots; but the Colorado specifies that data rates up to 1Mb/sec are supported in 8-bit mode. For what it's worth... Cheers, Chuck From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Jul 2 21:45:18 2008 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:45:18 -0400 Subject: *48*? pin Cinch connector? (HP 5060-8339?) In-Reply-To: <20080702155435.GB22228@usap.gov> References: <20080702155435.GB22228@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 15:54, Ethan Dicks wrote: > One telling thing is in fine print on the documentation is the legend > "HP Part No 5060-8339". It suggests to me that it might be useful for > something in the HP1000 or HP2000 era.... That's the standard HP21xx/1000 I/O interface connector, used with any number of interfaces, e.g.: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/12566.pdf See page 1-1. -- Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 2 22:06:05 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:06:05 -0400 Subject: *48*? pin Cinch connector? (HP 5060-8339?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2008, at 10:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I was going through a box of old stuff and ran across something I've >>> ever seen before - a 48-pin 0.156" Cinch connector w/cable hood. >>> From >>> my Commodore days, I've seen lots of 6 and 12 and 44-pin connectors, >>> but not 48. One telling thing is in fine print on the documentation >>> is the legend "HP Part No 5060-8339". It suggests to me that it >>> might >>> be useful for something in the HP1000 or HP2000 era, if I remember >>> anything about the innards. >> >> Doesn't that part number suggest that it might have been used in >> the HP 5060 cesium beam oscillator? > > No, I don;t think so. > > HP component part numbers are off the form xxxx-xxxx (2 4-digit > groups) > where the first group essentially gives the type of component (1820 == > digitial IC, 1826 == linear IC, 1853 == PNP transistor, 1854 == NPN > transistor, 9100 == transformer, etc). > > HP subassembly part numbers are of the form xxxxx-xxxxx (2 5 digit > groups), where the first group is the model number of the > instrument/option where it was first used. For example, the CPU > control > board in an HP98x0 machine is an 09810-66513. It was first used in the > HP9810 (and was also used in the 9820, 9830 and 9821). > > The fact that most HP transformers have 9100-zzzz numbers doesn't mean > they were all used in the HP9100 calculator. Understood. I've had a few HP 5061 cesium beam oscillators over the years, and their subassemblies are usually labeled 05061-xxxxx; I must've missed the 4-digit vs. 5-digit distinction. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 2 22:13:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:13:00 -0700 Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability Message-ID: <486BE14C.15165.BC8D595@cclist.sydex.com> Does anyone have any extensive experience with CF Microdrive disks-- in particular, the ST1 models? On everyone's least-favorite auction site, I'm seeing tons of refurbs for sale, which makes me wonder if the things hold up at all... Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Wed Jul 2 22:19:42 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:19:42 -0400 Subject: Microdrive reliability In-Reply-To: <486BE14C.15165.BC8D595@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00d701c8dcbb$a43a5320$f750f945@evan> I don't know what you mean by "ST1". But I had an IBM 340MB CF Microdrive when they were brand new. It still works. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:13 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability Does anyone have any extensive experience with CF Microdrive disks-- in particular, the ST1 models? On everyone's least-favorite auction site, I'm seeing tons of refurbs for sale, which makes me wonder if the things hold up at all... Cheers, Chuck From tonym at compusource.net Wed Jul 2 22:21:00 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:21:00 GMT Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability Message-ID: <200807022321882.SM05140@[63.69.23.239]> I use the IBM one's, and I love 'em. Tony -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis cclist at sydex.com Sent 7/2/2008 11:13:00 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability Does anyone have any extensive experience with CF Microdrive disks-- in particular, the ST1 models? On everyone's least-favorite auction site, I'm seeing tons of refurbs for sale, which makes me wonder if the things hold up at all... Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 22:50:28 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 20:50:28 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <200807021236.23974.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48694696.4040504@axeside.co.uk> <200807021236.23974.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > On Wednesday 02 July 2008 02:32, Seth Morabito wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Philip Belben wrote: >>> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>> The 9VAC has to be a separate transformer winding from the one that >>>> provides the +5VDC eventually, because of how it's used... >>> >>> There are plenty of transformers around with two 9V secondaries. I'd >>> reckon on using on of at least 20VA rating even if you have a switching >>> regulator. >> >> Oddly enough, whereas two 9V secondary windings seem common in the UK, >> I'm having a VERY difficult time finding one in the US. I suppose >> it's got something to do with the fact that UK/European transformers >> are stepping down from 230V mains, where the North American ones are >> stepping down from 110-120V mains. >> >> I have been able to find transformers with a 115 V primary winding and >> two 18 V secondary windings with center taps. I assume I can use the >> center taps, but honestly I'm not sure. Time to consult some higher >> authorities! (i.e., Chapter 6 of "The Art of Electronics" and Chapter >> 17 of "The ARRL Handbook"!) > > Which chapter depends on what edition of the handbook. :-) > > If you're talking about a full-wave (4-diode) bridge across a 9V winding you > can get the same result by using two diodes with an 18V winding. For the > other, where what you want is only 9VAC, you can use half the winding, > just one end and the center tap and not use the other end. > Hi I thought I might mention that one could get a 12v transformer and remove some turns. The easiest ones are the double bobin types used now days for isolation. These are usually easiest to unwind. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Do more with your photos with Windows Live Photo Gallery. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_photos_022008 From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 2 22:54:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 03:54:08 +0000 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <000b01c8dca9$fcdaca80$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> <20080702174843.GA12879@usap.gov> <000b01c8dca9$fcdaca80$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <20080703035408.GE11261@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:13:22PM -0700, Scanning wrote: > Ethan, > > According to the Motorola datasheet - " All voltages referenced to Vss ( 0V) > and Vbb ( -5 Volts ) must be applied before and removed after other supply > voltages ". OK. I don't have _that_ 4116 datasheet to reference, but that does sound familiar. Looking carefully at the Commodore power supply schematics from zimmers.net, I don't see anything that would bring up Vbb first or remove it last. To all appearances, it's all three at once. I don't know of any voltage priority in the Apple II, either (as an example of a contemporaneous design to the dynamic PET), so presumably, "at the same time" suffices. The unanswered (unanswerable?) question is then how close is close enough. Given the replies, I think I'm going to try the ICL7660. It means that I can run the board off a dual supply instead of trying to find other means. There is a remote chance that it could blow all the 4116s on a semi-common PET 3032 motherboard and I'll have to extract the chips - not a preferred outcome, but it seems no more risky than the factory supply. The safest alternative appears to be to remove the DRAM in the first place and run a static chip on a ROM/RAM board, but that still involves a lot of work on the board. What is clear is that providing +5V and +12V without covering the -5V requirement is _not_ a reasonable option. > What exacerbates things is that the current spikes from all the chips are > perfectly lined up during the RAS* cycle, but the biggest hit is on the Vdd > line ( +12 Volts ). If they don't already have a 0.1 uFd across each chip on > the Vdd I'd add one. I agree the 7660 should be okay on the - 5 Volts. As originally manufactured by Commodore, the chips have 0.1 uF on both the +12V and +5V rails. They are so notoriously cheap that I take it as proof that they are required. > Also, don't think these will run at -63 C ( ha ha ha ). Fortunately, we have this nice warm indoor space - _I_ get to walk ~10 hrs/week outside, but the classic toys stay inside where it's nice and toasty. Thanks for all the advice, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 3-Jul-2008 at 03:39 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83.2 F (-64.0 C) Windchill -121.6 F (-85.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.1 kts Grid 45 Barometer 681.6 mb (10568 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 2 23:00:52 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 04:00:52 +0000 Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability In-Reply-To: <486BE14C.15165.BC8D595@cclist.sydex.com> References: <486BE14C.15165.BC8D595@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080703040052.GG11261@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 08:13:00PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone have any extensive experience with CF Microdrive disks-- > in particular, the ST1 models? On everyone's least-favorite auction > site, I'm seeing tons of refurbs for sale, which makes me wonder if > the things hold up at all... I have a no-name USB pocket drive (Tone?) with me that has an OEM ST1 inside (it explicitly does not provide 8-bit mode, but works fine in 16-bit mode according to the Seagate data sheets). It was given to me just over a year ago and sees weekly usage for hauling around a variety of files from machine to machine. I have had no problems with it, but neither have I beaten the hell out of it (except to operate it above 10000'). How cheap are the refurbs? I don't know what mine cost last year - it was a going-away present from my summer job back home between seasons. If they were cheap enough, I might like to pick up a few. I also have a 340MB IBM Microdrive, but I think that was well under $10 from some surplus vendor last year. It hasn't seen as much usage as the ST1, but the ST1 was new when I got it and the IBM was not. Neither have failed as of yet. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 3-Jul-2008 at 03:49 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.0 F (-62.8 C) Windchill -120.8 F (-84.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.3 kts Grid 40 Barometer 681.6 mb (10568 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 3 00:57:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:57:33 -0700 Subject: Microdrive reliability In-Reply-To: <200807030352.m633q8Fq000890@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807030352.m633q8Fq000890@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <486C07DD.23636.C5F789D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2008 at 22:52, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:19:42 -0400 > From: "Evan Koblentz" > I don't know what you mean by "ST1". But I had an IBM 340MB CF > Microdrive when they were brand new. It still works. The Seagate line are all labeled "ST1 Drive". On closer inspection, it looks as if a bunch of Chinese merchants are trying to use refurb units to sell their USB-to-CF adapters. Best to stick with a US vendor, methinks. I'm working on a project that would normally take a standard (i.e. flash) CF card, but I'm debugging code and I'd like to use something that was a little more tolerant of repeated writing. Cheers, Chuck From les at hildenbrandt.com Wed Jul 2 08:30:31 2008 From: les at hildenbrandt.com (Les Hildenbrandt) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:30:31 -0600 Subject: Subject: Is Needham Electronics Out of Business? In-Reply-To: <200807021109.m62B9Wmp088707@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807021109.m62B9Wmp088707@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <486B82F7.4060302@hildenbrandt.com> I think that they are out of business.. One of there competitors had a note on their web site to the effect that since needhams is out of business, they will give a trade in to their programmer. I have not been able to get on the Needhams page for 6 months or more. Les From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jul 2 23:09:06 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 00:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability In-Reply-To: <486BE14C.15165.BC8D595@cclist.sydex.com> References: <486BE14C.15165.BC8D595@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200807030421.AAA08907@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Does anyone have any extensive experience with CF Microdrive disks-- > in particular, the ST1 models? Well, I don't know about "extensive", but my favourite laptop has CF as the only disk-like interface it has (it also has a PCMCIA slot, but that is rather necessary for the network, as it's old enough to have no built-in network). I have two microdrives, an IBM "340MB" (actually 342MB, the only instance I can think of where anything disk-like has actually had _more_ space than it's marked as having) and a Seagate "8.0GB" which is actually 7.45+G; I normally use the Seagate, as 340M is too small for me to fit comfortably in (340M isn't even big enough to hold a source tree). The Seagate runs a little hot (it's marked "CompactFlash Photo Hard Drive", so it's presumably designed for the low duty cycle experienced in use as a digital camera photo holder). On a handful of occasions, when I've left the machine doing a lengthy build (which is necessarily disk-intensive), the disk has fallen over and I've had to pull it out and reboot to recover. It's never needed more than that, though. The Seagate may be one of your "ST1 models"; when I pop it in a PCMCIA adapter and plug it in, I see the "ST1" string in the resulting text: wdc2 at pcmcia1 function 0: pcic0: port 0x400-0x40f wdc2: i/o mapped mode pcmcia1: card irq 5 atabus3 at wdc2 channel 0 wd2 at atabus3 drive 0: wd2: drive supports 16-sector PIO transfers, LBA addressing wd2: 7629 MB, 15501 cyl, 16 head, 63 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 15625008 sectors wd2: drive supports PIO mode 4 /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Jul 2 23:30:22 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:30:22 -0700 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) Message-ID: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> Thought some of you PERQ fanatics out there might be interested in an update... I've had some time to work on projects the past few days and so I picked up my poor, neglected PERQ emulator and brushed it off. And this is the result: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/perq/emulator/perq-5th.png http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/perq/emulator/perq-chess.png As you can see the emulator is now capable of booting POS from an image of my real PERQ's hard drive! I had to hack in a few things I'm not proud of -- most notably, a simulation of the RASTEROP QCode instruction since emulating the real thing has proven to be a nightmare -- but I plan on doing a proper emulation of the stuff I've hacked around as I work out more of the hardware details... If you want to try it out and see the glory of POS (and who doesn't, really?) you can download version 0.1 at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/perq/emulator/perqemu0.1.zip Includes all you need to get going. You'll need a Windows machine with .NET Framework 2.0. (Yes, I hear the jeering from the peanut gallery. Sorry I didn't write this for your OS. If you want to help with a Mono port when I get this thing more finished, let me know :)). Be sure to read the readme.txt file as it covers some work-arounds for some annoying emulation issues. Well, back to the grindstone. Need to implement GPIB tablet, disk writes, hardware cursors, serial, ethernet, video timing, real RasterOp emulation, 16K CPU support... and whatever else I've forgotten... - Josh From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jul 3 01:21:22 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:21:22 -0500 Subject: Microdrive reliability In-Reply-To: <486C07DD.23636.C5F789D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200807030352.m633q8Fq000890@dewey.classiccmp.org> <486C07DD.23636.C5F789D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <486C6FE2.7080605@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I don't know what you mean by "ST1". But I had an IBM 340MB CF >> Microdrive when they were brand new. It still works. > > I'm working on a project that would normally take a standard (i.e. > flash) CF card, but I'm debugging code and I'd like to use something > that was a little more tolerant of repeated writing. The IBM Microdrive 340MB CF cards are actually tiny hard drives, with substantially higher write tolerance (ie. the same as any hard drive). I use them wherever possible in my vintage IBM PCs and clones wherever possible, since they're cheap and fast. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jul 3 01:40:02 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:40:02 -0500 Subject: Microdrive reliability In-Reply-To: <486C6FE2.7080605@oldskool.org> References: <200807030352.m633q8Fq000890@dewey.classiccmp.org> <486C07DD.23636.C5F789D@cclist.sydex.com> <486C6FE2.7080605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <486C7442.5090306@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I don't know what you mean by "ST1". But I had an IBM 340MB CF >>> Microdrive when they were brand new. It still works. >> >> I'm working on a project that would normally take a standard (i.e. >> flash) CF card, but I'm debugging code and I'd like to use something >> that was a little more tolerant of repeated writing. > > The IBM Microdrive 340MB CF cards are actually tiny hard drives, with > substantially higher write tolerance (ie. the same as any hard drive). I > use them wherever possible in my vintage IBM PCs and clones wherever > possible, since they're cheap and fast. Sorry! I didn't see the original post. You already knew this. Yes, I have had excellent experiences with my 340MB CF microdrives, and if you cough up the auctions you're seeing, I will buy more :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 01:46:49 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:46:49 -0700 Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability References: <486BE14C.15165.BC8D595@cclist.sydex.com> <20080703040052.GG11261@usap.gov> Message-ID: <000b01c8dcd8$92186ca0$0301a8c0@hal9000> Chuck, I'm sorry if this starts to sound like an info-mercial as that is not my intent. I have been playing with the IBM 1.0 GB Microdrives ( CF+ Type II ) for a while now ( model number DSCM-11000 ). Tough little bastards. They've been dropped and put thru hell and still keep working. These are new factory sealed units that came in an IBM " travel kit " that also included a PCMCIA adapter, travel case and a WIN98 driver disk ( floppy ). I still have about a dozen factory sealed units if anyone on this list wants one ( or more ) at my cost plus shipping. If you are interested please contact me offline so we don't piss off anyone. They ( IBM ) claim sustained data rates up to 4 MB / second ( I have not verified that yet ). I can only vouch for these IBMs, I have not tried any other brand or any refurbs. I've always had extremely good luck with IBM drives and especially these little 1 inch hard drives. Best regards, Steven C. > On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 08:13:00PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Does anyone have any extensive experience with CF Microdrive disks-- > > in particular, the ST1 models? On everyone's least-favorite auction > > site, I'm seeing tons of refurbs for sale, which makes me wonder if > > the things hold up at all... > > I have a no-name USB pocket drive (Tone?) with me that has an OEM ST1 > inside (it explicitly does not provide 8-bit mode, but works fine in > 16-bit mode according to the Seagate data sheets). It was given to > me just over a year ago and sees weekly usage for hauling around a > variety of files from machine to machine. I have had no problems > with it, but neither have I beaten the hell out of it (except to > operate it above 10000'). > > How cheap are the refurbs? I don't know what mine cost last year - it > was a going-away present from my summer job back home between seasons. > > If they were cheap enough, I might like to pick up a few. > > I also have a 340MB IBM Microdrive, but I think that was well under $10 > from some surplus vendor last year. It hasn't seen as much usage as the > ST1, but the ST1 was new when I got it and the IBM was not. Neither > have failed as of yet. > > -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jul 3 06:06:11 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 04:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit H-11 Message-ID: Just in case anyone's interested, someone's selling a Heathkit H-11 on Ebay (#380042473453). Looking at the card cage of the thing, it seems that Heathkit simply cloned some DEC boards. What's actually going on? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mardy at voysys.com Thu Jul 3 06:21:25 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:21:25 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56241565-38B2-49DA-82EB-49B757E113EC@voysys.com> On Jul 3, 2008, at 7:06 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Just in case anyone's interested, someone's selling a Heathkit H-11 on > Ebay (#380042473453). Looking at the card cage of the thing, it seems > that Heathkit simply cloned some DEC boards. What's actually going > on? They didn't clone the boards. They're real DEC boards. It's basically a dumbed down LSI-11, very similar to something like a PDP-11/03. There is actually a pretty nice looking 11/03 for sale on Ebay (#280239289598) for $249.95 -Mardy From rcini at optonline.net Thu Jul 3 06:26:15 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:26:15 -0400 Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability In-Reply-To: <200807022321882.SM05140@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: I have a 6gb Hitachi (nee, IBM) one I bought two years ago for my DSLR and it works fine. You have to remember to grab it from the sides only, but other than that, it works great. On 7/2/08 11:21 PM, "tonym" wrote: > I use the IBM one's, and I love 'em. > > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis cclist at sydex.com > Sent 7/2/2008 11:13:00 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: OT: Microdrive reliability > > Does anyone have any extensive experience with CF Microdrive disks-- > in particular, the ST1 models? On everyone's least-favorite auction > site, I'm seeing tons of refurbs for sale, which makes me wonder if > the things hold up at all... > > Cheers, > Chuck > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jul 3 07:53:37 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:53:37 +0000 Subject: Heathkit H-11 In-Reply-To: <56241565-38B2-49DA-82EB-49B757E113EC@voysys.com> References: <56241565-38B2-49DA-82EB-49B757E113EC@voysys.com> Message-ID: <20080703125337.GA15177@usap.gov> On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 07:21:25AM -0400, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > > On Jul 3, 2008, at 7:06 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > >Just in case anyone's interested, someone's selling a Heathkit H-11 on > >Ebay (#380042473453). Looking at the card cage of the thing, it seems > >that Heathkit simply cloned some DEC boards. What's actually going > >on? > > They didn't clone the boards. They're real DEC boards. It's > basically a dumbed down LSI-11, very similar to something like a > PDP-11/03. I can't check that particular auction right now, but I do know a bit about DEC equipment and I do own a working H-11. In my experience, I'd say it's a bit of both - Heath made their own boards _and_ they sold DEC boards. I don't know what "officiall" came with an H-11 back in the day, but in my experience, folks bought an H-11 rather than a real DEC box to save money, so they used whatever came along that was the cheapest (to buy). I have a Heath parallel printer board (LPV11 equiv, AFAIK), a couple of Heath serial boards (DLV11-E? equiv) including one unassembled, plus the backplane in my H-11 does *not* use DEC edge connectors. In addition, I have a Heath H-27 interface card that is register- compatible with, I think, the RXV11, but that talks its own protocol out the connector to a Heath-specific intellegent drive (Z-80-based with "standard" 8" drives inside). In addition to that, my H-11 has a genuine DEC CPU board and genuine DEC memory. Heath tended to use generic white plastic module handles for their dual-height cards; I don't know if they ever made any quad- height cards. If you see an H-11 picture and you see maroon handles, those are probably DEC boards, especially if the M-numbers make sense (DEC CPU, memory, disk, etc). You might also see other vendors' boards in there, too, depending on how extensively the previous owner(s) stuffed in upgrades. I've seen green (not DEC G-series green), blue (same), and yellow for sure, plus white, of course. I don't know that DEC made too many dual-height boards for Qbus outside of the M-series (perhaps an A-series or two?) There's much more variety in the Unibus line, and of course, for non-bussed machines like pre-OMNIBUS PDP-8s. I'll have to check the auction out when the 'net comes up. I don't want to sell my H-11 (it was a gift from a former employer when the company went bust and he moved), but it would be nice to know what one can get these days. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 3-Jul-2008 at 12:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -80.7 F (-62.6 C) Windchill -119.7 F (-84.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.9 kts Grid 44 Barometer 681.8 mb (10560 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Jul 3 08:10:25 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:10:25 -0400 Subject: Vinegar and acetic acid and stop bath Message-ID: <486C97810200003700030A60@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Jochen writes: > Well. Actually acetic acid is the acid in vinegar. Most likely this > stuff is just pure acetic acid without any "flavor". > > Remember: If you are going to dilute concentrated acid > _allways_ pour the acid into water. Never do it the other way around. Another tip from the school of hard knocks: never sniff glacial acetic acid to see what it smells like :-). Rather pure acetic acid of varying concentrations is sold in photography supply stores as stop bath or a hardener add-in for fixer. Certainly pure enough for PC cleanup followed by a wash. You want a concentration way way less than "glacial" (99.5% acetic acid) but much more concentrated than the typical percent or two used in stop bath working solutions. Get it with the indicator in it (most common form for photography) and you'll know that you're done washing/rinsing when it stops turning purple. Tim. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 08:56:27 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:56:27 -0500 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> Message-ID: <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Includes all you need to get going. You'll need a Windows machine with > .NET Framework 2.0. (Yes, I hear the jeering from the peanut gallery. > Sorry I didn't write this for your OS. If you want to help with a Mono > port when I get this thing more finished, let me know :)) :-) Is it written in such a way that a port will be easy? (if it *needs* .NET, maybe not! :-) It's beyond my expertise, but my assumption about emulators was always that the guts don't really change across (modern) platforms - it's mainly the graphics layer that will be tightly coupled to the OS. Good work, anyway! cheers Jules From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jul 3 09:17:30 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <200807022229.33613.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080703141730.B764956EEC@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > > On Wednesday 02 July 2008 17:34, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Personally I regard them as about the most dangerous thing around. I've > > > yet to see one with proper mains fusing, most don't have output > > > current limiting, and so on.One common type sold in the UK has a 4-way > > > cross-shapped plug on it (3.5mm jack, 2.5mm jack, 2.1mm coax, 2.5mm coax) > > > with separate 1.3mm coax ('Walkman' plug) and a 9V battery clip on the > > > same cable. It's very easy to get a short-circuited output if those > > > conenctors touch each other. > > > > It's even more "fun" when the 4-way is plugged into the power jack on a > > machine, and the 9V connector wipes against, say, an edge connector. > > Instant fried chips, and not the edible kind. > > > > That's pretty much how my Jupiter Ace got wrecked (and speaking of which, I > > *still* haven't managed to get in touch with the guy who was *supposed* to > > be repairing it....) > > Then there was the customer who plugged his power supply in to the _back_ of > his 64, in the only socket where it would fit -- the video connector. > > Funny how that works sometimes... ^^^^^ Did something light up inside of the poor 64? Cheers, Bryan From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 10:23:37 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:23:37 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H-11 In-Reply-To: <20080703125337.GA15177@usap.gov> References: <56241565-38B2-49DA-82EB-49B757E113EC@voysys.com> <20080703125337.GA15177@usap.gov> Message-ID: <486CEEF9.40605@verizon.net> The standard H-11 was heath varients of dec cards and a official DEC LSI-11/03 quad height card. Memory was heath design and usually static. Some heath cards were better than dec some no so. one item in the h11 that was really no so was the power supply as it tended to fail easily and frequently. What is often seen is a H11 upgraded with 11/2 or 11/23 cards and a plethora of DEC boards as often they were available in later years cheap and could (for the 11/23) give a substantial performance boost over the older 11/03. Allison Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 07:21:25AM -0400, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > >> On Jul 3, 2008, at 7:06 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> >>> Just in case anyone's interested, someone's selling a Heathkit H-11 on >>> Ebay (#380042473453). Looking at the card cage of the thing, it seems >>> that Heathkit simply cloned some DEC boards. What's actually going >>> on? >>> >> They didn't clone the boards. They're real DEC boards. It's >> basically a dumbed down LSI-11, very similar to something like a >> PDP-11/03. >> > > I can't check that particular auction right now, but I do know a bit > about DEC equipment and I do own a working H-11. In my experience, > I'd say it's a bit of both - Heath made their own boards _and_ they > sold DEC boards. I don't know what "officiall" came with an H-11 > back in the day, but in my experience, folks bought an H-11 rather > than a real DEC box to save money, so they used whatever came along > that was the cheapest (to buy). > > I have a Heath parallel printer board (LPV11 equiv, AFAIK), a couple > of Heath serial boards (DLV11-E? equiv) including one unassembled, > plus the backplane in my H-11 does *not* use DEC edge connectors. > In addition, I have a Heath H-27 interface card that is register- > compatible with, I think, the RXV11, but that talks its own protocol > out the connector to a Heath-specific intellegent drive (Z-80-based > with "standard" 8" drives inside). In addition to that, my H-11 has > a genuine DEC CPU board and genuine DEC memory. > > Heath tended to use generic white plastic module handles for > their dual-height cards; I don't know if they ever made any quad- > height cards. If you see an H-11 picture and you see maroon > handles, those are probably DEC boards, especially if the M-numbers > make sense (DEC CPU, memory, disk, etc). You might also see other > vendors' boards in there, too, depending on how extensively the > previous owner(s) stuffed in upgrades. I've seen green (not DEC > G-series green), blue (same), and yellow for sure, plus white, > of course. I don't know that DEC made too many dual-height boards > for Qbus outside of the M-series (perhaps an A-series or two?) There's > much more variety in the Unibus line, and of course, for non-bussed > machines like pre-OMNIBUS PDP-8s. > > I'll have to check the auction out when the 'net comes up. I don't > want to sell my H-11 (it was a gift from a former employer when the > company went bust and he moved), but it would be nice to know what > one can get these days. > > -ethan > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 3 11:33:26 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:33:26 -0400 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> On Jul 3, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Includes all you need to get going. You'll need a Windows machine >> with .NET Framework 2.0. (Yes, I hear the jeering from the peanut >> gallery. Sorry I didn't write this for your OS. If you want to >> help with a Mono port when I get this thing more finished, let me >> know :)) > > :-) > > Is it written in such a way that a port will be easy? (if it > *needs* .NET, maybe not! :-) That's the whole point of .NET. Proprietary lock-in is the only reason Microsoft is in business today. Sleazy, but very effective. > It's beyond my expertise, but my assumption about emulators was > always that the guts don't really change across (modern) platforms > - it's mainly the graphics layer that will be tightly coupled to > the OS. The PCB layout software that I use (called, oddly enough, "PCB") runs on UNIX platforms with X11. Some time ago, DJ Delorie (of DJGPP fame, also has a project featured on the front cover of this month's Circuit Cellar Ink) did a huge amount of work to decouple the innards of PCB from the GUI. He calls the result "HID" (Human Interface Device) and it has been used to create instances of PCB with a Motif GUI, a GTK+ GUI, and someone (Der Mouse, is he here?) is even working on a raw X11 GUI. That sort of abstraction is nontrivial to achieve, but it is possible. > Good work, anyway! Seconded! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 3 11:34:29 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:34:29 -0700 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <000b01c8dca9$fcdaca80$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> <20080702174843.GA12879@usap.gov> <000b01c8dca9$fcdaca80$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Scanning wrote: > Also, don't think these will run at -63 C ( ha ha ha ). You can get them rated -55C -- +125C. If the rest of your board works at -63C, this probably will, too. So long as you don't have a lot of money hanging on it. So Ethan can probably take this board outside for a while. We usually put thermal controls (heaters and thermostats) on a board if we actually think it's going to see temperatures that low. But if you want to go for simple and you don't have too many exposed parts you can attach a small resistor to the TO-99 as a heater that you can run off of an unregulated voltage. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 3 11:57:43 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:57:43 -0400 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <20080702174843.GA12879@usap.gov> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> <20080702174843.GA12879@usap.gov> Message-ID: <2F43DCF6-8FCF-41DA-9016-C53F87AB0668@neurotica.com> On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> DRAM chips tend to draw spikes of current during refresh, as those >> little capacitors get charged. > > Sure... I'm used to that with +5V-only chips like the 4164 and > up, but I don't have any design experience with the multi-voltage > parts, thus my caution. I've only worked with 41256s design-wise. We used 8207 DRAM controllers, which were great in terms of functionality, but good heavens did we have problems with noisy power on those boards. I never want to go through that again. Those refresh spikes had such fast rise times (in ca. 1987 terms) that short, low-inductance paths to the bypass capacitors within the DRAM array turned out to be very important. >> If you have adequate low-impedance >> bypassing to supply those short-term demands, things should be fine >> with the 7660. It's a fairly predictable and dependable chip. > > By low-impedance bypassing, you mean monolithic (not electrolytic) > caps, > or do you mean something else? I just mean putting some decent bypassing electrically close to the board; presumably there are already a reasonable number of bypass capacitors in the DRAM array. Steven Canning said the supply that's affected worst by refreshing is +12V...I didn't know that; if that's the case then you shouldn't have to worry all that much about bypassing -5V anyway. >>> ... I wouldn't be able to get an order from Digikey for nearly 4 >>> months in any case. I have to use what's on hand. >> >> Good heavens, one would think you're in Antarctica or something. >> >> Oh, wait.. ;) > > Yes... ;) indeed. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jul 3 12:40:36 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:40:36 +0000 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <2F43DCF6-8FCF-41DA-9016-C53F87AB0668@neurotica.com> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> <20080702174843.GA12879@usap.gov> <2F43DCF6-8FCF-41DA-9016-C53F87AB0668@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20080703174036.GA2868@usap.gov> On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 12:57:43PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've only worked with 41256s design-wise. We used 8207 DRAM > controllers, which were great in terms of functionality, but good > heavens did we have problems with noisy power on those boards. I > never want to go through that again. Those refresh spikes had such > fast rise times (in ca. 1987 terms) that short, low-inductance paths > to the bypass capacitors within the DRAM array turned out to be very > important. My design experience goes back only a tad farther - to 4164s and 74S409 DRAM controllers in a 128K array on the COMBOARD2 (circa 1983-1984). I didn't design it, but I was working with the engineers when we had to figure out why it didn't work reliably (we had to add 33Ohm resistors inline with the CAS/RAS lines to dampen undershoot - a topic which has come up here in the past once or twice). > I just mean putting some decent bypassing electrically close to > the board; presumably there are already a reasonable number of bypass > capacitors in the DRAM array. Yep. The PET board has two caps per DRAM chip (+12V and +5V) right there next to the chips. > Steven Canning said the supply that's > affected worst by refreshing is +12V...I didn't know that; if that's > the case then you shouldn't have to worry all that much about > bypassing -5V anyway. I didn't know about the larger noise on +12V either, but for this particular application, I don't recall much else besides the RAM array hanging off of the +12V line. As long as the noise doesn't screw up refresh cycles, I don't think it will be a problem. Cheers, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 3-Jul-2008 at 17:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82.7 F (-63.7 C) Windchill -114.0 F (-81.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.6 kts Grid 56 Barometer 681.1 mb (10587 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jul 3 12:50:10 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:50:10 -0700 Subject: Vinegar and acetic acid and stop bath In-Reply-To: <486C97810200003700030A60@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <486C97810200003700030A60@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Another tip from the school of hard knocks: never sniff glacial acetic acid > to see what it smells like :-). SECONDED. I even 'wafted', the way I was taught way back in High School chemistry. That stuff burns the nose quite effectively :) -Seth From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jul 3 13:54:58 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:54:58 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H-11 In-Reply-To: <56241565-38B2-49DA-82EB-49B757E113EC@voysys.com> References: <56241565-38B2-49DA-82EB-49B757E113EC@voysys.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > There is > actually a pretty nice looking 11/03 for sale on Ebay (#280239289598) for > $249.95 Ouch, $249.95 seems pretty high for a PDP-11/03 without peripherals!! But, like we've learned thousands of times over the last decade of ClassicCmp, "it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it" > -Mardy From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jul 3 15:55:53 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:55:53 +0000 Subject: Using an ICL7660 to feed -5VDC to 4116 DRAMs? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20080702100540.0274deb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> References: <20080702090547.GA13349@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702080151.02734fb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <20080702155010.GA22228@usap.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20080702100540.0274deb0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Message-ID: <20080703205553.GA23068@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 10:24:22AM -0700, gil smith wrote: > The 2674 is an 8-pin dip or soic. Nice part. I found some TNY267 parts - I know it's a switcher of some sort, but I'm wondering how it relates to the 2674 you mentioned. The TNY267s I have are 8-pin DIPs, minus pin 6 (not broken - just no leg where you'd normally find pin 6). Ring any bells? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 3-Jul-2008 at 20:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.0 F (-62.8 C) Windchill -119.7 F (-84.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.6 kts Grid 59 Barometer 680.6 mb (10606 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jul 3 17:19:19 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:19:19 -0500 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> ... >> It's beyond my expertise, but my assumption about emulators was >> always that the guts don't really change across (modern) platforms - >> it's mainly the graphics layer that will be tightly coupled to the OS. > > The PCB layout software that I use (called, oddly enough, "PCB") runs > on UNIX platforms with X11. Some time ago, DJ Delorie (of DJGPP fame, > also has a project featured on the front cover of this month's Circuit > Cellar Ink) did a huge amount of work to decouple the innards of PCB > from the GUI. He calls the result "HID" (Human Interface Device) and it > has been used to create instances of PCB with a Motif GUI, a GTK+ GUI, > and someone (Der Mouse, is he here?) is even working on a raw X11 GUI. > > That sort of abstraction is nontrivial to achieve, but it is possible. Have a look at Qt. Have a look at wxWidgets (which is what I use). There is no need to write separate interfaces; in my experience, 98% of the code is the same across windows and osx (I haven't attempted to get a linux port running) I do agree that reengineering the model/view abstraction after the fact is a lot of work, but that error is easily avoided. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 17:57:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:57:38 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20080703141730.B764956EEC@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080703141730.B764956EEC@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200807031857.38995.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 July 2008 10:17, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > > > On Wednesday 02 July 2008 17:34, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Personally I regard them as about the most dangerous thing around. > > > > I've yet to see one with proper mains fusing, most don't have output > > > > current limiting, and so on.One common type sold in the UK has a > > > > 4-way cross-shapped plug on it (3.5mm jack, 2.5mm jack, 2.1mm coax, > > > > 2.5mm coax) with separate 1.3mm coax ('Walkman' plug) and a 9V > > > > battery clip on the same cable. It's very easy to get a > > > > short-circuited output if those conenctors touch each other. > > > > > > It's even more "fun" when the 4-way is plugged into the power jack on a > > > machine, and the 9V connector wipes against, say, an edge connector. > > > Instant fried chips, and not the edible kind. > > > > > > That's pretty much how my Jupiter Ace got wrecked (and speaking of > > > which, I *still* haven't managed to get in touch with the guy who was > > > *supposed* to be repairing it....) > > > > Then there was the customer who plugged his power supply in to the _back_ > > of his 64, in the only socket where it would fit -- the video connector. > > > > Funny how that works sometimes... > > ^^^^^ > > Did something light up inside of the poor 64? Not much, and that power supply had really poor resolution, too! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 18:07:31 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:07:31 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H-11 In-Reply-To: <56241565-38B2-49DA-82EB-49B757E113EC@voysys.com> References: <56241565-38B2-49DA-82EB-49B757E113EC@voysys.com> Message-ID: <200807031907.31815.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 July 2008 07:21, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > On Jul 3, 2008, at 7:06 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Just in case anyone's interested, someone's selling a Heathkit H-11 on > > Ebay (#380042473453). Looking at the card cage of the thing, it seems > > that Heathkit simply cloned some DEC boards. What's actually going > > on? > > They didn't clone the boards. They're real DEC boards. It's > basically a dumbed down LSI-11, very similar to something like a > PDP-11/03. I built an H11 for a company I worked for back in 1978. Their price for the whole system was several thousand or so, I forget exactly, but that included the DECWriter too. The CPU board came "pre-wired" (I'm guessing because it was a 4-layer board?) from DEC and the rest of the boards in there were Heath, and I wired 'em, including the backplane. We started out with only paper tape with that system, which was great fun when a storm would glitch the power briefly -- stick the absolute loader tape in there, type in the bootstrap loader to load that, put the BASIC tape in and load that, then put in the last tape you'd punched for whatever program you were working on. After a bit they added a dual floppy drive. All this with the hard-copy "terminal" being used. Later they got a Zenith terminal to talk to it with, but that was a bit after I'd left them. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jul 3 18:30:12 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:30:12 -0400 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> Jim Battle wrote: > > Have a look at Qt. Have a look at wxWidgets (which is what I use). > There is no need to write separate interfaces; in my experience, 98% > of the code is the same across windows and osx (I haven't attempted to > get a linux port running) > Indeed, I'm hearing very good things about Qt, and getting a bit of pressure to rewrite LisaEm using that instead of wxWidgets, but I find wxWidgets to be robust and perfectly fine for LisaEm. I'm not sure what wxWidgets 3.0 will bring, but I'm looking forward to it. There are of course licensing issues with Qt, but if you're not going to produce anything commercial, it's perfectly fine to use Qt. Otherwise wx seems a better choice. wx has a hidden interface for directly manipulating wxBitmaps. wx is very fast at blitting these to the display, but slow at drawing inside wxBitmaps. I've managed to use the hidden rawbitmap interface very nicely for both OS X and win32, however, under Linux it doesn't work too well, so I've instead uses the wxImage classes and convert the image to a wxBitmap before blitting. It's a little bit slower, but works just fine. The only serious problem I've see with wx is the lack of proper sound. It'll play WAV files just fine, but that's the problem - they must be files. There is a way to load them in memory and play them back, but I've found it doesn't always work, and I've had to compose a WAV file in memory, write it to /tmp and then tell wx to play the file. I'm sure I could use some other library such as Allegro for this, but meh, it really should be properly handled under wx. (I've no idea if this is handled properly in Qt or not.) For sound emulation you want to be able to compose a sound buffer containing the wave and play it back on the fly and also you should be able to add more data to the sound buffer or somehow work with it like a circular buffer... Lisa's sounds are very limited (just square waves produced by a VIA's shift register, so it's not too bad.) Ideally you should be able to play MIDI files (or play them from memory), work with multiple voices, and be able to handle envelopes for notes, etc. it would be really cool for example to be able to build a C64 SID emulator using wxWidgets for example. Of course the real problem is that since it was written in .NET it will have to be a whole rewrite into C or C++ or something that either Qt or wx supports. I'd opt for pure C for all the low level stuff and C++ or something else for the UI. mono and .Net are nice and all, but I'd say they're far from an ideal platform for an emulator. Yes, I know, there's a PC emulator written in JAVA, today's machines are capable of running an emulator inside a virtual machine (ok, with JIT compilation), but why put up with all the overhead? wxWidgets works beautifully under Linux with GTK. I've had issues providing binaries that would work under multiple distros (it's hard to compile statically with GTK), so perhaps it's best to just provide source and contact the ports managers for the distros you're interested in. There's also a pure X11 version of wxWidgets that can be used, but I've found it clunky and slow compared to the GTK one - and also some stuff that worked under GTK didn't work under X11 there. But GTK is fairly universal. (Ok, it would be nice if a wxQT existed too, but that's less critical.) I haven't been able to get LisaEm to work under Solaris, although it should, it's probably some sort of endian issue or something, but there is a wxMotif as well - certainly would work on any platform that still uses Motif, though it might run better if GTK+ was installed on Solaris... :-) One idea I'ved toyed with but haven't done anything with is using wxLua as the UI and C for the core emulation. It might be worth looking at, well providing you allow the C code to do all the heavy work of refreshing the display as well. The benefit here is that it makes it easier to edit the UI. Anyway, I'm very happy to see a PERQ emulator, in any form. From mike at fenz.net Thu Jul 3 21:12:56 2008 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:12:56 +1200 Subject: DEC Gigi key caps? In-Reply-To: <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu><486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com><486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <3417BEC4264F4082A6F1D592675F972C@fluke> Hi everyone, I have a Digital GIGI, missing two keys (Set-Up, and No Scroll). Does anyone have spares of these? The actual switches look to be in good condition, fortunately. Mike. From vze323vd at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 01:43:59 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (Greg Manuel (V)) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:43:59 -0400 Subject: NeXT Computer Prototype (Seattle) In-Reply-To: <75A9875EBDBA443BB6EFBFB303F0A194@odin> Message-ID: Hi Mike, How much are you looking to get for it or give us some ideas of what you would consider for possible trades. I know I for one am very interested in it. Greg Manuel http://www.gmconsulting.net gmanuel at gmconsulting.net "People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs." - Unknown > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:45 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: NeXT Computer Prototype (Seattle) > > > I've got a full NeXT slab setup with monitor/keyboard/mouse. It's a basic > slab the neat thing is it was a prototype. I compared it once to my other > slab and the lettering/logo was a bit different and this one has prototype > printed on it. I should even have the original power cord here somewhere > and a short stack of original software and developer stuff > (magazines, etc). > Taking offers, I'd prefer to deal local and I'm not above trades but I > mostly need the cash. > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jul 3 12:20:34 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200807031722.NAA13316@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > He calls the result "HID" (Human Interface Device) and it has been > used to create instances of PCB with a Motif GUI, a GTK+ GUI, and > someone (Der Mouse, is he here?) is even working on a raw X11 GUI. Mouse is here, yes. :) "Working on" is perhaps somewhat misleading at the moment, because other things have dragged me away from it recently; "partly done but on hold" would be more accurate. I don't know when I'm going to pick it back up again, but I certainly intend to. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Jul 3 12:38:55 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:38:55 -0700 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <486D0EAF.30100@msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jul 3, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Includes all you need to get going. You'll need a Windows machine >>> with .NET Framework 2.0. (Yes, I hear the jeering from the peanut >>> gallery. Sorry I didn't write this for your OS. If you want to >>> help with a Mono port when I get this thing more finished, let me >>> know :)) >> >> :-) >> >> Is it written in such a way that a port will be easy? (if it *needs* >> .NET, maybe not! :-) > > That's the whole point of .NET. Proprietary lock-in is the only > reason Microsoft is in business today. Sleazy, but very effective. In the case of .NET, there's the whole Mono initiative (http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page) which is an open source .NET runtime on top of your favorite unix variants. C# and the CLR are openly specified (ECMA/ISO). There's no particular reason that PERQemu couldn't be compiled under Mono, but I haven't tried it. Additionally, I plan on releasing the source to this once I get it to a state I'm happy with. (The code right now is... ugly, let's say.) So if you want to rewrite it in C or Fortran 77 or MIX you can feel free :). > Seconded! Thanks :). > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > From trasz at FreeBSD.org Thu Jul 3 17:28:29 2008 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (Edward Tomasz Napierala) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:28:29 +0200 Subject: Connecting IBM GXT550P to SGI monitor. In-Reply-To: <20080702093410.b007550c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20080630185025.GA54321@traszkan.ds7> <20080702093410.b007550c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20080703222829.GA23986@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> On 0702T0934, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Is there any way to connect 13W3 output of GXP550P (graphics card > > in RS/6000 p43) to 13W3 SGI monitor (GDM-20E21)? In order to connect > > SPARCstation I had to make a little modification of the SS2 to make > > it generate sync-on-green signal. Will the same modification work > > with IBM? > Most likely not as the Sun generates C-Sync. The IBM machine generates > either Sync on Green or separate H/V-Sync. Just try. Connect the > RGB-leads and wait to get a picture. If you get one, the IBM does Sync > on green and you are done. If not it does separate H/V-Sync. In that > case you have to build a custom cable. Google for pinouts. Yup, it does sync-on-green. However, the picture is _very_ badly distorted, and, what's strange, in several ways. First, the palette seems to be (it's hardly visible) messed up. Second, there is something wrong with synchronisation - vertical screen edges are not vertical at all, they are 'torn' - but at least don't move, the distortion is still. However, if the monitor's OSD menu is on the screen, it 'jumps' up and down two milimeters every half a second, probably due to yet another problem with synchronisation. Is the card toast? From the diagnostic software point of view (diag under AIX) it's ok. I don't think that software checks the analog part ;-) -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Jul 3 19:00:31 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:00:31 -0400 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> Message-ID: Ray Arachelian writes: > > Of course the real problem is that since it was written in .NET it will > have to be a whole rewrite into C or C++ or something that either Qt or wx > supports. I'd opt for pure C for all the low level stuff and C++ or > something else for the UI. mono and .Net are nice and all, but I'd say > they're far from an ideal platform for an emulator. Yes, I know, there's > a PC emulator written in JAVA, today's machines are capable of running an > emulator inside a virtual machine (ok, with JIT compilation), but why put > up with all the overhead? > I like C# (and 'managed' code in general) because it allows me to focus on the problem rather than the tool. I can fool around with ideas and write fairly clean code in C# very quickly and I don't have to worry about mundane details like memory management, bad pointers, and stupid "shoot yourself in the foot" mistakes (I consider myself a good programmer, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate a language that helps me write better code). I wrote most of the code for this emulator in my spare time over just 5 weeks at the end of 2006, it just got moved to the back burner until recently. Yes, it's probably not as fast as something written in pure C but I'm not too concerned about that. The portability issue is unfortunate, but I'm hoping that Mono will make it possible to run it on non-Windows platforms. (It looks like Mono now has some manner of Winforms support, so it may not even be necessary to make any changes at all...) I wouldn't mind rewriting it in C after getting everything worked out in C#, to make it more palatable for other OSes. But it helps me immensely to write it in a high-level OOP language first to keep my code (and my mind) in order. (I don't consider C++ to be "high level" :)). I've tried to keep the emulation code fairly abstracted from the UI (there's really only a window and keyboard/mouse input, so it should be trivial to port to a different system if need be.) > Anyway, I'm very happy to see a PERQ emulator, in any form. > Thanks. It's been a fun process and I hope that someone somewhere gets some use out of it once I get it working better :). Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 4 00:26:52 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 01:26:52 -0400 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <200807031722.NAA13316@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <200807031722.NAA13316@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2008, at 1:20 PM, der Mouse wrote: >> He calls the result "HID" (Human Interface Device) and it has been >> used to create instances of PCB with a Motif GUI, a GTK+ GUI, and >> someone (Der Mouse, is he here?) is even working on a raw X11 GUI. > > Mouse is here, yes. :) "Working on" is perhaps somewhat misleading at > the moment, because other things have dragged me away from it > recently; > "partly done but on hold" would be more accurate. I don't know when > I'm going to pick it back up again, but I certainly intend to. Excellent. I look forward to seeing it when it's ready. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 4 00:27:53 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 01:27:53 -0400 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486D0EAF.30100@msu.edu> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D0EAF.30100@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > In the case of .NET, there's the whole Mono initiative (http:// > www.mono-project.com/Main_Page) which is an open source .NET > runtime on top of your favorite unix variants. C# and the CLR are > openly specified (ECMA/ISO). There's no particular reason that > PERQemu couldn't be compiled under Mono, but I haven't tried it. I wonder how difficult it'd be to set up the build environment for that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 4 00:32:42 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 01:32:42 -0400 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <2A89CB86-256B-40BB-90E2-3DFFB2DFBC20@neurotica.com> On Jul 3, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Jim Battle wrote: >>> It's beyond my expertise, but my assumption about emulators was >>> always that the guts don't really change across (modern) >>> platforms - it's mainly the graphics layer that will be tightly >>> coupled to the OS. >> The PCB layout software that I use (called, oddly enough, "PCB") >> runs on UNIX platforms with X11. Some time ago, DJ Delorie (of >> DJGPP fame, also has a project featured on the front cover of this >> month's Circuit Cellar Ink) did a huge amount of work to decouple >> the innards of PCB from the GUI. He calls the result "HID" (Human >> Interface Device) and it has been used to create instances of PCB >> with a Motif GUI, a GTK+ GUI, and someone (Der Mouse, is he here?) >> is even working on a raw X11 GUI. >> That sort of abstraction is nontrivial to achieve, but it is >> possible. > > Have a look at Qt. Have a look at wxWidgets (which is what I use). > There is no need to write separate interfaces; in my experience, > 98% of the code is the same across windows and osx (I haven't > attempted to get a linux port running) Qt was discussed at great length and eventually dismissed, but I don't recall exactly why. The main point of PCB's HID system wasn't cross-platform portability, though, but GUI portability. Some people wanted Motif, some people wanted GTK+, MacOS X runs either one beautifully, and we don't give a crap about Windows... > I do agree that reengineering the model/view abstraction after the > fact is a lot of work, but that error is easily avoided. PCB has been around for a very long time...I believe it originally got its start in Atari ST land eighteen years ago, and ported to X11 fourteen years ago. The need for that type of abstraction really couldn't have been anticipated from the start. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 4 01:59:33 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:59:33 +0200 Subject: Connecting IBM GXT550P to SGI monitor. In-Reply-To: <20080703222829.GA23986@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> References: <20080630185025.GA54321@traszkan.ds7> <20080702093410.b007550c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20080703222829.GA23986@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> Message-ID: <20080704085933.b5c3c850.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:28:29 +0200 Edward Tomasz Napierala wrote: > First, the palette > seems to be (it's hardly visible) messed up. In this case it seems that the RGB leads got messed up. E.g. the green output going to the red input. No surprise that this also messes up sync if sync is expected on green... Usually I do the same as Sridhar: Connecting two 13W3-BNC cables together with BNC couplers. (BNC-T pieces from your old Cheapernet cabling can be used in absence of proper BNC couplers.) -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From alanp at snowmoose.com Fri Jul 4 02:00:06 2008 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:00:06 -0700 Subject: Free (plus shipping) Sun Ultra5 Message-ID: <486DCA76.1000600@snowmoose.com> This was a rescue. I work for Sun and generally love the hardware. However, the exception is the attempts to make SPARC boxes as inexpensive as PC by using PC-like components and boxes (i.e., Ultra 5/10). However, I saw a Sun keyboard and system stuffed behind some PCs at a rummage sale and complained, so the seller asked if I wanted the system for free. As noted, it is an Ultra 5 with a 366MHz (I think) UltraSPARC IIi processor and 256M of memory. It also has a 3.5" floppy, but I don't have any working floppy disks left, so I can't confirm that it works. The system had a non-original 52x CD drive and non-original HDD. The seller had tried to install Linux, but it would not boot the CD and the system would try and boot from the HDD and hang (such that it would respond to L1-A). I replaced the HDD with a 120G that I had lying around. I used another CD drive to install Solaris (I work in the Solaris kernel group, so what else am I going to install?). Then I figured out what was wrong with the CD drive that the system was given to me with. So, now, it has a 52x CD-ROM and a 120G IDE HDD. The system seems to work fine. It has Solaris 10 (update 5) installed now, but it is a little underpowered to be running that. Included with the system is a Sun 5c keyboard. I just want money to cover shipping it. Or a SPARCstation IPX (I collect the Sun shoebox systems) in trade. Located in the Seattle area. alan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 4 02:37:30 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:37:30 +0200 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20080704093730.4d3a9adb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:00:31 -0400 "Joshua Alexander Dersch" wrote: > I like C# (and 'managed' code in general) because it allows me to > focus on the problem rather than the tool. Well. C# is just an other reinvention of that wheel. M$ reinvented it purely to chain customers to their products. There have been Java and Smalltalk before. They could just use Java, but Java is "not invented here"... I would use Smalltalk. I don't know of any other language that can express statements in such a natural way with such a high grade of flexibility, orthogonality and abstraction. But implementing an emulator in a language that is interpreted by a virtual machine? I don't know... But we get OT. -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 4 02:57:27 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:57:27 -0700 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486D0EAF.30100@msu.edu> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D0EAF.30100@msu.edu> Message-ID: At 10:38 AM -0700 7/3/08, Josh Dersch wrote: >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On Jul 3, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>Includes all you need to get going. You'll need a Windows >>>>machine with .NET Framework 2.0. (Yes, I hear the jeering from >>>>the peanut gallery. Sorry I didn't write this for your OS. If >>>>you want to help with a Mono port when I get this thing more >>>>finished, let me know :)) >>> >>>:-) >>> >>>Is it written in such a way that a port will be easy? (if it >>>*needs* .NET, maybe not! :-) >> >> That's the whole point of .NET. Proprietary lock-in is the only >>reason Microsoft is in business today. Sleazy, but very effective. >In the case of .NET, there's the whole Mono initiative >(http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page) which is an open source .NET >runtime on top of your favorite unix variants. C# and the CLR are >openly specified (ECMA/ISO). There's no particular reason that >PERQemu couldn't be compiled under Mono, but I haven't tried it. We've used Mono at work in production for several years now. The crazy thing being, I've been the one building new versions of Mono, even though I've not been writing anything in C#. Having said that, I've been working on learning C# the last couple weeks, and quite honestly rather like what I see. I'm rapidly starting to consider C# and .NET as the best reason for having a Windows box. I've installed Mono on my G5, and the main problem I see with .NET, Mono, or Portable.NET, is that none of them run on OpenVMS. Using a language that doesn't support OpenVMS is a personal problem for me. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jul 4 02:58:34 2008 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:58:34 -0700 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <20080704093730.4d3a9adb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> <20080704093730.4d3a9adb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Jul 4, 2008, at 12:37 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:00:31 -0400 > "Joshua Alexander Dersch" wrote: > >> I like C# (and 'managed' code in general) because it allows me to >> focus on the problem rather than the tool. > Well. C# is just an other reinvention of that wheel. M$ reinvented it > purely to chain customers to their products. There have been Java and > Smalltalk before. They could just use Java, but Java is "not invented > here"... I'll refrain from comment, other than saying that every language has been a reinvention of Lisp, Fortran, Smalltalk or Simula :). > > > I would use Smalltalk. I don't know of any other language that can > express statements in such a natural way with such a high grades of > flexibility, orthogonality and abstraction. > > But implementing an emulator in a language that is interpreted by a > virtual machine? I don't know... I don't want to sideline my own thread any longer (anyone have any questions or comments related to the PERQ or the emulator? ;)) but c# (and Java) are not interpreted. They're just-in-time compiled in most cases. There's no reason either of them couldn't be compiled to native code (and I believe there are native Java compilers out there.) Josh > > > But we get OT. > -- > > > tsch__, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jul 4 02:59:46 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: terminal servers Message-ID: I'm considering a terminal server for playing with multiple computers using multiple terminals. Can someone recommend something inexpensive and/or used? The idea is that I'd sit at one of several terminals and select which host I want to talk to. While mentally rolling this around this afternoon, I found my way to this perverse fantasy -- going "online" in public with a Sparkfun portable rotary phone[1] and a portable printing terminal (say, a Tandy PT-210). [1] http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=287 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jul 4 03:21:59 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:21:59 +0100 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20080704082159.GA32739@gjcp.net> On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 07:30:12PM -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote: > could use some other library such as Allegro for this, but meh, it > really should be properly handled under wx. (I've no idea if this is > handled properly in Qt or not.) Indeed. And I really should be able to use the wheelbrace from my car to sew a patch on my jeans. > For sound emulation you want to be able to compose a sound buffer > containing the wave and play it back on the fly and also you should be > able to add more data to the sound buffer or somehow work with it like a > circular buffer... Lisa's sounds are very limited (just square waves > produced by a VIA's shift register, so it's not too bad.) > Ideally you should be able to play MIDI files (or play them from > memory), work with multiple voices, and be able to handle envelopes for > notes, etc. it would be really cool for example to be able to build a > C64 SID emulator using wxWidgets for example. Why would you use a graphics toolkit to write an audio app? Wouldn't it be better to use an audio toolkit to handle the sound and leave the graphics toolkit to do the graphics? Incidentally, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned SDL for this yet. Gordon From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Jul 4 09:14:17 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:14:17 -0400 Subject: terminal servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486E3039.4000701@nktelco.net> David Griffith wrote: > I'm considering a terminal server for playing with multiple computers > using multiple terminals. Can someone recommend something inexpensive > and/or used? The idea is that I'd sit at one of several terminals and > select which host I want to talk to. I've been using some DECserver90TL for that purpose. I connect the serial consoles to the DECserver and the use telnet to access them. The 90TL does TCP protocols as well as DECnet protocols. They come up on eBay frequently. One complication with them is that they netboot their system software on power up, so you have to have a MOP server available to get them started. No experience with anything else, so I don't have any comparisons... -chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jul 4 10:01:26 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 17:01:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: terminal servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jul 2008, David Griffith wrote: > I'm considering a terminal server for playing with multiple computers > using multiple terminals. Can someone recommend something inexpensive > and/or used? The idea is that I'd sit at one of several terminals and > select which host I want to talk to. Look around at your univerisity, you should be able to locate terminal servers which aren't used any more. At least I was able to find several Bridge CS/1, Emulex Performance and Lantronix ETS, all of them were out of service and for free. Christian From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 10:04:06 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It's funny what some people think things are worth Message-ID: <716188.13335.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I check craigslist and honestly it's getting to be a waste but I do get to see what some insane people think their stuff is worth ======================================================== http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/741485335.html COMMODORE 64 PORTABLE COMPUTER - $1000 (Garden City) Reply to: sale-741485335 at craigslist.org Date: 2008-07-03, 12:08PM EDT This is a real collectors items, it works perfectly and comes with a few cartridges and floppy disk games. There was a time when this was the second portable computer on the market. Just plug it into electric and off you go for hours and house of fun. ALL ORIGINAL. Serious Inquiries Only. $1,000.00 OR Best Offer!!! Thanks. * Location: Garden City * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 741485335 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 11:29:20 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:29:20 -0500 Subject: DECTalk Express on Ebay Message-ID: <51ea77730807040929l115b8130o345dce892c999884@mail.gmail.com> Not mine, but I recall a few folks interested in one here a while back. This one is an exception in that it's up for a non-crazy price: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200236310450 From ray at arachelian.com Fri Jul 4 11:57:55 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:57:55 -0400 Subject: It's funny what some people think things are worth In-Reply-To: <716188.13335.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <716188.13335.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <486E5693.8060108@arachelian.com> Hey Chris, nice running into you here. That's a C64-SX which are rare, but certainly not $1K worth of rare. :-) Christian Liendo wrote: > I check craigslist and honestly it's getting to be a waste but I do get to see what some insane people think their stuff is worth > > > ======================================================== > http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/741485335.html > > COMMODORE 64 PORTABLE COMPUTER - $1000 (Garden City) > Reply to: sale-741485335 at craigslist.org > Date: 2008-07-03, 12:08PM EDT > > > This is a real collectors items, it works perfectly and comes with a few cartridges and floppy disk games. > There was a time when this was the second portable computer on the market. > > Just plug it into electric and off you go for hours and house of fun. > > ALL ORIGINAL. > > Serious Inquiries Only. $1,000.00 OR Best Offer!!! > Thanks. > > > > > * Location: Garden City > * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests > > PostingID: 741485335 > > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 4 12:38:45 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20080704103757.A32054@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Joshua Alexander Dersch wrote: > I like C# (and 'managed' code in general) because it allows me to focus on > the problem rather than the tool. I can fool around with ideas and write > fairly clean code in C# very quickly and I don't have to worry about mundane > details like memory management, bad pointers, and stupid "shoot yourself in > the foot" mistakes "In C++ it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot, but when you do, you blow off your whole leg." Bjarne Stroustrup. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Jul 4 13:30:47 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:30:47 -0400 Subject: terminal servers Message-ID: <01C8DDE2.998C1120@host-208-72-123-38.dyn.295.ca> If you're happy with RS-232 only (but with HS and baud rate conversion) then I've got some 16-port NetCommanders for ya. Also some modems and statmux concentrators if they're in different cities ;-) And I could probably also find a nice model 500 phone (and maybe even the DataPhone version) and an acoustic coupler for that other project ;-) Yeah, I thought it was neat first time I saw it, but a little pricey... Couldn't resist defying your sig BTW... mike *********************************************************************************** Original Message: Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:59:46 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith Subject: terminal servers I'm considering a terminal server for playing with multiple computers using multiple terminals. Can someone recommend something inexpensive and/or used? The idea is that I'd sit at one of several terminals and select which host I want to talk to. While mentally rolling this around this afternoon, I found my way to this perverse fantasy -- going "online" in public with a Sparkfun portable rotary phone[1] and a portable printing terminal (say, a Tandy PT-210). [1] http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=287 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 4 13:55:33 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:55:33 -0700 Subject: C++ (was Re: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!)) In-Reply-To: <20080704103757.A32054@shell.lmi.net> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> <20080704103757.A32054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <486E7225.7050907@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > "In C++ it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot, but when you do, you > blow off your whole leg." Bjarne Stroustrup. With all due respect to Mr. Stroustrup, it is NOT any harder to shoot yourself in the foot with C++ than with C. It has all the problems of C plus a whole lot of new ones. Eric C++ is a fairytale language. Unfortunately, the fairytale is not The Goose that laid the Golden Eggs, but rather The Emperor has no Clothes. -- Peter van der Linden C++ is already too large and complicated for our taste. -- X3J16, (SIGPLAN notices, June 1992) C++ will do for C what Algol-68 did for Algol. -- David L. Jones If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor and when was the last time you needed one? -- Tom Cargin It has been discovered that C++ provides a remarkable facility for concealing the trivial details of a program - such as where its bugs are. -- David Keppel When your hammer is C++, everything begins to look like a thumb. -- Steve Haflich C++ has it's place in the history of programming languages. Just as Caligula has his place in the history of the Roman Empire. -- Robert Firth If C++ has taught me one thing, it's this: Just because the system is consistent doesn't mean it's not the work of Satan. -- Andrew Plotkin Being really good at C++ is like being really good at using rocks to sharpen sticks. -- Thant Tessman Whenever the C++ language designers had two competing ideas as to how they should solve some problem, they said, "OK, we'll do them both". So the language is too baroque for my taste. -- Donald E Knuth To me C++ seems to be a language that has sacrificed orthogonality and elegance for random expediency. -- Meilir Page-Jones I consider C++ the most significant technical hazard to the survival of your project and do so without apologies. -- Alistair Cockburn C++ is the only current language making COBOL look good. -- Bertrand Meyer C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C. -- Linus Torvalds From ray at arachelian.com Fri Jul 4 14:26:08 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:26:08 -0400 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <20080704103757.A32054@shell.lmi.net> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> <20080704103757.A32054@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <486E7950.3030706@arachelian.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > "In C++ it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot, but when you do, you > blow off your whole leg." Bjarne Stroustrup. > > I prefer the "C++ is stapling on extra legs on a dog to make an octopus" line, but I'm not sure who said it. D looks really promising from what I've read, but not having used it for any real project, it's hard to say. From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 14:35:57 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:35:57 -0400 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486E7950.3030706@arachelian.com> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D5067.9020304@pacbell.net> <486D6104.7050301@arachelian.com> <20080704103757.A32054@shell.lmi.net> <486E7950.3030706@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220807041235r35f5d819lb2c3ec35ef9abafa@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> "In C++ it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot, but when you do, you >> blow off your whole leg." Bjarne Stroustrup. >> >> > > I prefer the "C++ is stapling on extra legs on a dog to make an octopus" > line, but I'm not sure who said it. D looks really promising from what I've > read, but not having used it for any real project, it's hard to say. > > "Object-Oriented Programming is the roman numerals of computing" -- Rob Pike "In C# you want to shoot yourself in the foot when you realize you just wrote a big project... in C#" -- Me Yeah, I spent a summer coding C#; working in Maui, great co-workers, but writing C# in Visual Studio under Vista really soured me. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 4 15:27:37 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:27:37 -0600 Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <486D0EAF.30100@msu.edu> References: <486C55DE.4080206@msu.edu> <486CDA8B.8090904@gmail.com> <623C2C33-74B4-4629-A31D-53D300745254@neurotica.com> <486D0EAF.30100@msu.edu> Message-ID: <486E87B9.1050300@jetnet.ab.ca> Josh Dersch wrote: > > Additionally, I plan on releasing the source to this once I get it to > a state I'm happy with. (The code right now is... ugly, let's say.) > So if you want to rewrite it in C or Fortran 77 or MIX you can feel > free :). > I wonder how many people on this list like myself think FORTRAN IV. Strange how the standards people like to mess things up. I think after K&R C langauges went dowhill. >> Seconded! > Thanks :). > >> >> -Dave >> >> --Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> >> >> >> > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 4 16:23:19 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:23:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) In-Reply-To: <200807031722.NAA13316@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <787958.86328.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hehe, sounds like my Dymo Labelwriter project for the Amiga. I thought of the idea at the start of 2006. I have the necessary docs (for the model I have), but haven't had the time to write any code yet!! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 3/7/08, der Mouse wrote: From: der Mouse Subject: Re: Further PERQ Emulator progress (and a download!) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, 3 July, 2008, 6:20 PM > He calls the result "HID" (Human Interface Device) and it has been > used to create instances of PCB with a Motif GUI, a GTK+ GUI, and > someone (Der Mouse, is he here?) is even working on a raw X11 GUI. Mouse is here, yes. :) "Working on" is perhaps somewhat misleading at the moment, because other things have dragged me away from it recently; "partly done but on hold" would be more accurate. I don't know when I'm going to pick it back up again, but I certainly intend to. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 10:55:16 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: making C64 power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jul 2008, David Griffith wrote: > > In case anyone's interested, there is quite a bit of material on building > replacement C64 power supplies at http://www.midibox.org/. > Well, I find a lot of peripheral discussion about it, but can you post a link to some actual technical information? Their search system is just short of useless... From philip at axeside.co.uk Fri Jul 4 15:52:00 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:52:00 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <200807021236.23974.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48694696.4040504@axeside.co.uk> <200807021236.23974.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <486E8D70.3070607@axeside.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > If you're talking about a full-wave (4-diode) bridge across a 9V winding you > can get the same result by using two diodes with an 18V winding. For the > other, where what you want is only 9VAC, you can use half the winding, > just one end and the center tap and not use the other end. That would be ideal. Just remember that the 18V winding will be rated for half the current that a 9V winding would have been, and that still applies even if you only use half the winding. In this case I'd definitely follow Tony's advice and get a transformer rated for 50VA (18V at 2*1.4A) or more. Philip. From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Jul 5 02:10:17 2008 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 00:10:17 -0700 Subject: asr33 on ebay Message-ID: <486EBBE9.20727.7D6DA07@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi folks, FYI there's an ASR-33 on ebay with no bids, ending today, item 220251461521 Looks like it's in good cosmetic condition but seller notes it has an electrical problem. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jul 5 14:32:31 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FS: used 5.25" MO media Message-ID: I have seven Panasonic LM-D501W disks (940 MB) and six LMR1300 (1.3 GB, MDI and Verbatim) magneto-optical disks available for $5 each plus shipping. They're used, but seem okay. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 4 20:40:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 02:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <486E8D70.3070607@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Jul 4, 8 09:52:00 pm Message-ID: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > If you're talking about a full-wave (4-diode) bridge across a 9V winding you > > can get the same result by using two diodes with an 18V winding. For the > > other, where what you want is only 9VAC, you can use half the winding, > > just one end and the center tap and not use the other end. > > That would be ideal. Just remember that the 18V winding will be rated > for half the current that a 9V winding would have been, and that still > applies even if you only use half the winding. In this case I'd Now, this is more your filed than mine, but the rating of a transformer is determined by at least 2 things : 1) 'Copper losses' due to the resisance of the secondary winding 2) Ditto for the primary winding 3) The size of the core / the flux density in the core. Now, I think that (2) and (3) would be the same whether you used the whole winding or half the winding at twice the current. And for small transformers, the copper loss in the secondary is rarely the limiting factor (For example it's very rare for the seocndary to be the winding that fiales on a burn-out). Soe while I'd not try and use half the secodnary at twice the rated current, I think you would get away with rather more than the current you could draw if you used the whole winding. But then again I like over-rating transformers, so I'd probably not do this anyway. -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jul 5 15:12:33 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:12:33 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200807051612.34056.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 04 July 2008 21:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > If you're talking about a full-wave (4-diode) bridge across a 9V > > > winding you can get the same result by using two diodes with an 18V > > > winding. For the other, where what you want is only 9VAC, you can > > > use half the winding, just one end and the center tap and not use the > > > other end. > > > > That would be ideal. Just remember that the 18V winding will be rated > > for half the current that a 9V winding would have been, and that still > > applies even if you only use half the winding. In this case I'd > > Now, this is more your filed than mine, but the rating of a transformer > is determined by at least 2 things : > > 1) 'Copper losses' due to the resisance of the secondary winding > 2) Ditto for the primary winding > 3) The size of the core / the flux density in the core. > > Now, I think that (2) and (3) would be the same whether you used the > whole winding or half the winding at twice the current. And for small > transformers, the copper loss in the secondary is rarely the limiting > factor (For example it's very rare for the seocndary to be the winding > that fiales on a burn-out). I'd tend to agree with this. > Soe while I'd not try and use half the secodnary at twice the rated > current, I think you would get away with rather more than the current you > could draw if you used the whole winding. Yup. > But then again I like over-rating transformers, so I'd probably not do > this anyway. If I'm going to spec one, yeah, but more often than not if I'm building something from scratch I'll end up using some transformer I salvaged somewhere, and mostly it works out. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 5 16:32:24 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 14:32:24 -0700 Subject: ISO Interleaf for SunOS Message-ID: <486FE868.7070401@bitsavers.org> CHM has a large collection of HP 1000 documents on tape in Interleaf format It would be nice to convert these to Postscript/PDF. Does someone have an old copy of Interleaf that would run on a Sun box (like a SparcStation)? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jul 5 21:21:28 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:21:28 -0700 Subject: ISO Interleaf for SunOS In-Reply-To: <486FE868.7070401@bitsavers.org> References: <486FE868.7070401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200807051921.28561.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hi Al, On Saturday 05 July 2008 14:32, Al Kossow wrote: > CHM has a large collection of HP 1000 documents on tape in Interleaf format > It would be nice to convert these to Postscript/PDF. Does someone have an > old copy of Interleaf that would run on a Sun box (like a SparcStation)? You might also give a shot at: http://www.tagwrite.com/ Converts to Word/RTF - easy conversion to PDF from there. They might be willing to "donate" a copy to the CHM... If it makes sense and you want me to give it a shot, let me know off list... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 6 00:41:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:41:00 -0700 Subject: C++ (was Re: Further PERQ Emulator progress In-Reply-To: <200807051700.m65H03Am034161@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807051700.m65H03Am034161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <486FF87C.30944.D4088B4@cclist.sydex.com> It used to be a genuine item of concern in X3J3 (FORTRAN), and, for all I know, other X3 standards committees, whether the role of the committee was to certify and clarify existing practice or to extend the language. Fortunately, a lot of people back in the days of F77 remembered what a nightmare PL/I turned out to be. By the time of F90 (was supposed to have been F88), that had been largely forgotten. That awful word "deprecated" seems to spell doom for a language, as in "EXAMINE is deprecated; we're going to give you a new verb, INSPECT, with about fifty jillion new options that you'll never remember anyway." COBOL was never the same after that. It always seemed to me that the C++ people never even had the discussion. For what it's worth, I do use C++ for some projects, but it's generally at the level that C++ was when C++ was pretty much a standalone preprocessor for a C compiler. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 15 00:22:58 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5.25" MO disks to get rid of right now Message-ID: I have six LMR-1300 and seven LM-D501W 5.25" magneto-optical disks that I want to be rid of ASAP. They're yours for cost of shipping. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Jul 15 03:51:25 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:51:25 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 M16b board identification... Message-ID: <487C650D.4020809@msu.edu> Amongst some TRS-80 Model 16 parts I picked up this past weekend is a board I can't identify. It's labeled as a "Tandy 16B Adapter", PCA 00717000 REV 0. It doesn't seem to have much on it, a few TTL chips and a 50 pin connector. I put a pic up at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/IMG_0165.JPG Anyone know what it is? Thanks, Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Jul 15 04:10:55 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:10:55 -0700 Subject: TRS-Xenix 1.0 Development System disks? Message-ID: <487C699F.3060204@msu.edu> Anyone have the development system disks for TRS-Xenix 1.0? I just recently got my Model 16 running Xenix 1.03 and having a compiler (or any other software, for that matter) would be nice. I've found images for Xenix 3.0's development system, but my M16 lacks the proper modifications to run 3.0. Thanks, Josh From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 07:35:34 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:35:34 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 M16b board identification... In-Reply-To: <487C650D.4020809@msu.edu> References: <487C650D.4020809@msu.edu> Message-ID: <487C9996.4090808@gmail.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Amongst some TRS-80 Model 16 parts I picked up this past weekend is a > board I can't identify. It's labeled as a "Tandy 16B Adapter", PCA > 00717000 REV 0. It doesn't seem to have much on it, a few TTL chips and > a 50 pin connector. > > I put a pic up at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/IMG_0165.JPG > > Anyone know what it is? SCSI/SASI maybe? I'm no TRS-80 expert (at all!), but the 50-pin connector, handful of TTL and the resistor packs all make it 'smell' about right... Wouldn't surprise me if it's just SASI, for hookup to one of the Adaptec / Xebec / OMTI / Emulex bridge boards (and from there to a ST506/412 hard disk or QIC tape unit) cheers Jules From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Jul 15 07:49:53 2008 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:49:53 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 M16b board identification... Message-ID: <7C512ED813CEE545AA3E75DF26F6B2DE015CD7@MEOW.catcorner.org> > Amongst some TRS-80 Model 16 parts I picked up this past weekend is a > board I can't identify. It's labeled as a "Tandy 16B Adapter", PCA > 00717000 REV 0. It doesn't seem to have much on it, a few TTL chips and > a 50 pin connector. > > I put a pic up at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/IMG_0165.JPG Looks to be the adapter for the "cartridge drive" AKA the bernoulli drive. I have a couple of the boards, but no drives. I'm trying to get my hands on one now. Kelly From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Jul 15 07:52:10 2008 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:52:10 -0400 Subject: Anyone have the development system disks for TRS-Xenix 1.0? Message-ID: <7C512ED813CEE545AA3E75DF26F6B2DE015CD8@MEOW.catcorner.org> > Anyone have the development system disks for TRS-Xenix 1.0? I just > recently got my Model 16 running Xenix 1.03 and having a compiler (or > any other software, for that matter) would be nice. I've found images > for Xenix 3.0's development system, but my M16 lacks the proper > modifications to run 3.0. I'll have to check my disks. I may. I have several hundred various disks for this series of computers. If I don't reply soon, remind me. I tend to get a little flakey. Kelly From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 15 08:14:22 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:14:22 -0400 Subject: woa - what happened (to cctalk) ? Message-ID: <31071.1216127662@mini> I missed my fix of cctalk for a week. What happened? Server died? From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 15 08:21:36 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:21:36 -0400 Subject: free BA11 shell, RA81 shell, 9-track tape cleaner; Boston area Message-ID: <31302.1216128096@mini> I'm moving out of my old rented garage (into a new garage :-) and I have two things to give away (for pickup) in the Boston area. - BA11 cabinet which is solid but missing various power supplies. It was ` once an expansion cab for an 11/730. I think it is 1/2 full of backplane. - RA81 which is missing an HDA. I think it has everything else. - nice 1/2" 9-track tape cleaner device; good for retentioning also (I ended up with two of these and don't need two) If anyone would like these let me know. Local pick up only. -brad From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 08:19:22 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:19:22 -0500 Subject: woa - what happened (to cctalk) ? In-Reply-To: <31071.1216127662@mini> References: <31071.1216127662@mini> Message-ID: <487CA3DA.8020007@gmail.com> Brad Parker wrote: > I missed my fix of cctalk for a week. What happened? Server died? me too "nice" to know that it wasn't just me, anyway. Maybe Jay was patching the PDP systems that host classiccmp.org... (now there's a nice rumour to start! ;) cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jul 15 10:43:50 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: woa - what happened (to cctalk) ? In-Reply-To: <31071.1216127662@mini> References: <31071.1216127662@mini> Message-ID: <487CC5B6.4010306@oldskool.org> Brad Parker wrote: > I missed my fix of cctalk for a week. What happened? Server died? /var filled up. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Tue Jul 15 12:25:56 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:25:56 -0700 Subject: Northstar Advantage In-Reply-To: <200807151700.m6FH0hX9069982@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807151700.m6FH0hX9069982@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <16A05950E4D94AB2A9154DEBC4543196@odin> Can anybody tell me a rough estimate of what a Northstar Advantage would be worth? I believe it has one floppy and a HD in it (definitely not dual floppies). From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jul 15 13:00:51 2008 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:00:51 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/45 multi processor systems Message-ID: <003701c8e6a4$b861c7a0$0300a8c0@XPBOX> Hi all, whilst reading my 11/45 processor manual the other night, I came across the statement that, if Unibus A and B are separated, Unibus B can be used for inter-processor links, so long as one of the connected devices is a Unibus controller. Does anyone have any experience of this configuration, and if so, what operating system was used. Finally, is there any reason why I couldn't link the Unibus in my 11/44 to Unibus B in my 11/45, assuming I had some software that could take advantage of it. Jim. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jul 15 14:04:14 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:04:14 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/45 multi processor systems Message-ID: <487CBC6E0200003700031DD1@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Jim Beacon asks: > whilst reading my 11/45 processor manual the other > night, I came across the statement that, if Unibus A and > B are separated, Unibus B can be used for inter-processor > links, so long as one of the connected devices is a Unibus controller. I and John Wilson had wondered about this in the past, and in 2001 John Holden mentioned the following in vmsnet.pdp-11: > Tom Uban wrote: >> The 11/45 processor handbook talks about the utility of a multiprocessor >> system, considering the dual UNIBUS architecture and fast/slow memory >> scheme. >> I know that many discussions have gone by about a multiprocessor 11/70, >> but did DEC ever make (internally?), produce, or sell a multiprocessor >> 11/45 system? >> Did anyone in put a pair (or more) of 11/45's together on their own? > I had an 11/45 with a 11/20 front end, but it gets tricky. You can > only > separate the two Unibuses (unbusi?) if you have fastbus memory. The > controllers were dual ported, one to unibus B and the other a direct > path to the processor. Unibus A was always used by the processor, and > had the bus arbitration logic. Unibus B had no such logic, and was > used > for DMA transfers from peripherals to the fastbus memory. > If you separate the buses (just remove a jumper), and run a second > processor on Unibus B there is a problem. The second processor and > its peripherals have full access to the fastbus memory (only), but the > peripherals on the 11/45 had no access. > In my case using an 11/20 (which doesn't have memory management) the > fastbus memory has to be strapped into the first 56Kb of memory. The > DMA > devices on the 11/45 couldn't have access to this memory, so I had to > write a special bootstrap loader that buffered data in normal memory, > then transferred it to the fastbus segment. > A different hardware solution was the 'Unibus Window', where you could > transparently map chunks of memory (or peripherals) between to > unibus machines. From pgheude at picknowl.com.au Tue Jul 15 11:52:44 2008 From: pgheude at picknowl.com.au (Peter Gheude) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:22:44 +0930 Subject: Eprom Programmer Bytek 135H Message-ID: <109B053A76164BF3BC1FB149B104C0E9@gateway> Hi there, I am sorry I do not know your name and I came across your message while browsing and I am hoping you can help. I have dusted down my old programmer a Bytek 135H as I have a project I where I need to program an eprom. Have not used it for some time now and have lost the manual and application used to drive it. There was a floppy I used to insert into my PC, however it was so long ago all is lost or misplaced it. I am trying to find out some details on the unit. Did you ever locate a copy of the application floppy and manual for the unit you acquired? Regards, Peter Fingers crossed. Mylor Australia. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 15 14:59:56 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I BASIC dump Message-ID: <200807151959.m6FJxu4c024374@floodgap.com> A fascinating little blog entry on the Apple I BASIC (4K), converted from an MP3 of the tape. Includes code and the 4K binary. http://www.pagetable.com/?p=32 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I may have invented CtrlAltDel, but Microsoft made it popular. -- D. Bradley From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 15 16:32:05 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:32:05 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/45 multi processor systems In-Reply-To: <003701c8e6a4$b861c7a0$0300a8c0@XPBOX> References: <003701c8e6a4$b861c7a0$0300a8c0@XPBOX> Message-ID: <487D1755.7010605@brouhaha.com> Jim wrote: > whilst reading my 11/45 processor manual the other night, I came across the statement that, if Unibus A and B are separated, Unibus B can be used for inter-processor links, so long as one of the connected devices is a Unibus controller. > Does anyone have any experience of this configuration, and if so, what operating system was used. There was no operating system support for this. Making it do anything useful is challenging. > Finally, is there any reason why I couldn't link the Unibus in my 11/44 to Unibus B in my 11/45, assuming I had some software that could take advantage of it. Electrically you can do it, but it's not clear that there is any actual benefit. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 15 20:48:33 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:48:33 -0400 Subject: woa - what happened (to cctalk) ? In-Reply-To: <31071.1216127662@mini> Message-ID: <200807160148.m6G1maZe015387@keith.ezwind.net> I thought it was an intervention or forced rehab of some kind..... So it wasn't just my handlers, messing with me :) It turns out that others have been subjected to this cruel cold turkey therapy :( The other Bob On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:14:22 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: >I missed my fix of cctalk for a week. What happened? Server died? From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 21:07:09 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:07:09 -0500 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? Message-ID: hello, anybody know where I can get an 800k drive for my mac SE? mine seems to have quit working. thanks -Joe From us21090 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 01:07:42 2008 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I finally finished my Obtronix Apple 1 reproduction! Message-ID: <351845.40672.qm@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, I finally finished my Obtronix Apple 1 reproduction! Actually, building the Apple 1 didn't take much time at all! It was the custom work on the mounting board, the curved and angled plastic leg brackets, and, and ... I uploaded photos of it to http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/album.php?u=6611 I also have a request: My Obtronix Apple 1 reproduction had a bad Signetics 2504v. I don't think it was DOA (I believe it just "developed" the problem recently). The Signetics 2504v is a 1024-bit dynamic shift register, 8-pin dip. It's used here to as part of the display control. The problem I saw was odd numbers (1,3,5,7,9,A,C,E) in every other screen column were displayed as the preceding ASCII character (0,2,4,6,8,@,B,D). Data from the keyboard was stored correctly in main RAM. The video memory problem just displayed it incorrectly. Anyway, does anyone have a source of a Signetics 2504v? Or possibly, is there other more readably available junk-hardware-for-parts that I could pull a 2504v? Thanks! Scott Austin From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 16 01:57:17 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:57:17 -0400 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? References: Message-ID: <001301c8e711$2f80a740$6601a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? > hello, > anybody know where I can get an 800k drive for my mac SE? mine seems to > have > quit working. thanks > -Joe Try joining the forum at 68kmla.net and post a wanted in the marketplace. The only 800K drives I have are in my SE. so I don't have a spare for you. TZ From hugh at blemings.org Wed Jul 16 07:04:45 2008 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:04:45 +1000 Subject: Free: Apple odds and Ends Message-ID: <20080716220445.0da7af2e.hugh@blemings.org> Hiya, Folk are welcome to the following for the cost of postage (from Canberra, Australia or Austin, TX if you don't mind waiting an extra couple of weeks) Two new 3Com EtherLink SE 3C563 cards - 10Base-T and AUI port 10Mbit for Mac SE Dozen or so original AppleTalk interfaces - DB9 male at one end, 3 pin Appletalk connector at the other. Have a bunch of 3pin-3pin Appletalk cables too - 6ft long. Please contact me off list if of interest, goes into recycling in a weeks time otherwise :) Cheers, Hugh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jul 16 07:31:15 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:31:15 -0400 Subject: WTB TU-58 drives and tapes Message-ID: <487DEA13.6070004@compsys.to> I have been asked to find some TU-58 drives and tapes. The drive would need to be the external dual TU-58 with an RS-232 header interface (of 10 pins). Does anyone have any to spare? Does anyone have any price estimates as to how much they cost these days? Please contact me off list if you have any that are actually available. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jul 16 09:07:43 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:07:43 -0400 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <487E00AF.9090905@arachelian.com> joe lobocki wrote: > hello, > anybody know where I can get an 800k drive for my mac SE? mine seems to have > quit working. thanks > -Joe > > I'd try to repair it first... see: http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-floppy_lube.html There probably are other instructions on the web as well. Note that the above is for 400K floppies, which should be very similar, but be aware that the stuff about "felt" on the top of the drive arm isn't going to apply as you'd have a real read/write head there instead. :-) From trag at io.com Wed Jul 16 12:19:28 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:19:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <200807161700.m6GH0akd079777@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807161700.m6GH0akd079777@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9145.209.163.133.242.1216228768.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:07:09 -0500 > From: "joe lobocki" > > hello, > anybody know where I can get an 800k drive for my mac SE? mine seems to > have > quit working. thanks > -Joe Let's see.... Listed at $3 but they charge $7 shipping (last time I checked before fuel prices increased so) per drive so the real price is $10 per drive shipped, assuming the shipping hasn't changed. If your order is trouble free, then Shreve is reliable. If there are problems with your order (e.g. defective/missing items), they have a reputation for not being particularly helpful. Jeff Walther From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jul 16 12:43:40 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I BASIC dump Message-ID: Well, nice work on his part, but all he had to do was e-mail me and I could've sent him a perfect copy, which I've had for years, and which I've given out to several people. Also, I simply read the program from a copy I have on tape into an Apple ][+. Once you get the volume levels correct on the cassette tape (not trivial, but do-able after enough tries) then it's a no-brainer. No fancy waveform graphs or C code required. Finally, Apple-1 BASIC is simply "Integer BASIC", which came with the Apple ][ and is pretty readily available itself. Anyway, it was a nice intellectual exercise. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jul 16 12:48:16 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I BASIC dump Message-ID: P.S. The folly of storing cassette data in MP3 format has been discussed here in detail before. DON'T DO IT. Use WAV only. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jul 16 12:49:31 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: Macintosh IIx Message-ID: I require a Macintosh IIx. Not a II, not a IIfx, nor a IIcx nor IIci, but a IIx. If you have one and wish to sell it, please contact me ASAP. Any physical/cosmetic condition (within reason, i.e. nothing that's been through a crusher) is acceptable. It need not be functional. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From george at rachors.com Wed Jul 16 13:08:13 2008 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080716110638.T65628@racsys.rachors.com> Somewhere I remember reading about a way to take a stock Apple ][ system and being able to build up a dos system disk from a pc download through th e serial port. Anyone else remember that link? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Well, nice work on his part, but all he had to do was e-mail me and I > could've sent him a perfect copy, which I've had for years, and which I've > given out to several people. > > Also, I simply read the program from a copy I have on tape into an Apple > ][+. Once you get the volume levels correct on the cassette tape (not > trivial, but do-able after enough tries) then it's a no-brainer. No fancy > waveform graphs or C code required. > > Finally, Apple-1 BASIC is simply "Integer BASIC", which came with the > Apple ][ and is pretty readily available itself. > > Anyway, it was a nice intellectual exercise. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jul 16 13:11:25 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:11:25 -0500 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080716110638.T65628@racsys.rachors.com> References: <20080716110638.T65628@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: <487E39CD.3070602@pacbell.net> George L. Rachor Jr. wrote: > Somewhere I remember reading about a way to take a stock Apple ][ system > and being able to build up a dos system disk from a pc download through > th e serial port. Anyone else remember that link? > > George http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 13:17:38 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:17:38 +0100 Subject: UK101 Message-ID: <575131af0807161117qbcae564h7863c82a83b922eb@mail.gmail.com> Anyone interested in this early 8-bit micro? I've just been offered one for free, but I don't really have the room. Happy to post it on if the recipient pays P&P from London. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 13:18:51 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:18:51 +0100 Subject: Free: Apple odds and Ends In-Reply-To: <20080716220445.0da7af2e.hugh@blemings.org> References: <20080716220445.0da7af2e.hugh@blemings.org> Message-ID: <575131af0807161118yed46550qc475206171648f4d@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/16 Hugh Blemings : > Hiya, > > Folk are welcome to the following for the cost of postage (from Canberra, Australia or Austin, TX if you don't mind waiting an extra couple of weeks) > > Two new 3Com EtherLink SE 3C563 cards - 10Base-T and AUI port 10Mbit for Mac SE This is probably a stupid question, but this wouldn't work in an SE/30, would it? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jul 16 13:22:36 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:22:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Sellam Ismail > > > Well, nice work on his part, but all he had to do was e-mail me and I > could've sent him a perfect copy, which I've had for years, and which I've > given out to several people. > > Also, I simply read the program from a copy I have on tape into an Apple > ][+. Once you get the volume levels correct on the cassette tape (not > trivial, but do-able after enough tries) then it's a no-brainer. No fancy > waveform graphs or C code required. > > Finally, Apple-1 BASIC is simply "Integer BASIC", which came with the > Apple ][ and is pretty readily available itself. > > Anyway, it was a nice intellectual exercise. > Or an excellent example of a Rube Goldberg machine? :) Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 13:25:16 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:25:16 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080716110638.T65628@racsys.rachors.com> References: <20080716110638.T65628@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: <487E3D0C.5040504@gmail.com> George L. Rachor Jr. wrote: > Somewhere I remember reading about a way to take a stock Apple ][ system > and being able to build up a dos system disk from a pc download through > th e serial port. Anyone else remember that link? http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/ Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 16 13:25:31 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Jul 16, 8 10:48:16 am" Message-ID: <200807161825.m6GIPVJB028872@floodgap.com> > P.S. The folly of storing cassette data in MP3 format has been discussed > here in detail before. > > DON'T DO IT. > > Use WAV only. Actually, I like AIFF since it's guaranteed to be non compressed (instead of AIFC). WAV could have compression too thanks to Microsoft extending the format to be a generic audio container. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Those wise enough to avoid politics are governed by those who aren't. ------ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 13:30:37 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:30:37 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <200807161825.m6GIPVJB028872@floodgap.com> References: <200807161825.m6GIPVJB028872@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <487E3E4D.4020902@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> P.S. The folly of storing cassette data in MP3 format has been discussed >> here in detail before. >> >> DON'T DO IT. >> >> Use WAV only. > > Actually, I like AIFF since it's guaranteed to be non compressed (instead > of AIFC). WAV could have compression too thanks to Microsoft extending > the format to be a generic audio container. Is it possible to use FLAC? It's lossless, after all. Peace... Sridhar From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 14:02:21 2008 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:02:21 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 4000/60: from dumpster to desktop Message-ID: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> Hello all. I picked up this morning a VAXstation 4000/60 from the local recycling center's computer dumpster. I could not find the monitor or keyboard. Is there any way to make a VGA monitor, and PS/2 Keyboard/mouse work on this machine? Thanks Joe Giliberti From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jul 16 14:10:07 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:10:07 +0100 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <487E478F.9060901@gjcp.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > P.S. The folly of storing cassette data in MP3 format has been discussed > here in detail before. > > DON'T DO IT. > > Use WAV only. > Yes, I've found that's mostly because if you store your synthesizer patch dumps as .mp3 files, rhythmbox will promptly index them next time you start it up. Then you just need shuffle play and... Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 14:14:00 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:14:00 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 4000/60: from dumpster to desktop In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <487E4878.4090406@gmail.com> Joe Giliberti wrote: > Hello all. > I picked up this morning a VAXstation 4000/60 from the local recycling > center's computer dumpster. I could not find the monitor or keyboard. Is > there any way to make a VGA monitor, and PS/2 Keyboard/mouse work on this > machine? Nope. The keyboard and mouse are serial in nature. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a set, though. They're around. The keyboard you want is the DEC LK201 or LK401. (I like the 401 better.) The mouse you want is VSXXX. There are two kinds of mice. One has a mouse ball. The other has two rollers that contact the desk surface at angles to get vertical and horizontal movement. I like the latter better. For the monitor, you want something that can deal with Sync-on-green (SOG). Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 16 14:23:09 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:23:09 +0200 Subject: VAXstation 4000/60: from dumpster to desktop In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080716212309.6c30f768.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:02:21 -0400 "Joe Giliberti" wrote: > I picked up this morning a VAXstation 4000/60 from the local recycling > center's computer dumpster. I could not find the monitor or keyboard. > Is there any way to make a VGA monitor, and PS/2 Keyboard/mouse work > on this machine? Most likely it has a 3W3 video connector. Connect the three coax signals of the 3W3 connector to the RGB pins of a VGA monitor, that is capable of sync on green and you are done. You can use a LK401 or LK201 keyboard and a DEC VSxxx mouse with the VAXstation. It shouldn't be that hard to get one of each. You can also build a KBDbabel: http://www.kbdbabel.org/ (You need PS2 Keyboard ---> DEC VT320) -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jul 16 14:23:47 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WANTED: Macintosh IIx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63574.67.93.24.222.1216236227.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> > Sellam, I had one of these at one time... I'll dig to see if I still have it (but it might have left my posession some time back upgraded to a IIfx (my first IIfx was an upgraded IIx)). I'll let you know if I have one. -- Curt > I require a Macintosh IIx. Not a II, not a IIfx, nor a IIcx nor IIci, but > a IIx. > > If you have one and wish to sell it, please contact me ASAP. > > Any physical/cosmetic condition (within reason, i.e. nothing that's been > through a crusher) is acceptable. It need not be functional. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jul 16 14:27:00 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:27:00 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 4000/60: from dumpster to desktop In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Hello all. > I picked up this morning a VAXstation 4000/60 from the local recycling > center's computer dumpster. I could not find the monitor or keyboard. Is > there any way to make a VGA monitor, and PS/2 Keyboard/mouse work on this > machine? Did it include the monitor cable? If I remember right, the 4000 used a 3W3 (*NOT* 13W3) connector for video, which might be hard to come by. But if you can find a 3W3 connector, you can make your own 3W3 to VGA cable fairly easily. Any monitor that does Sync-on-Green should work. Most 17-inch and larger CRT displays seem to have this feature. I've even used my ViewSonic VP201b LCD display -- the analog input does sync-on-green, which I've found to be incredibly useful. If you do have the video cable, you can use pretty much any CRT that has three R-G-B BNC connectors and sync-on-green, or you can use a short 3 female BNC to VGA converter, which I've found to be a little tricky to come by, but not impossible. Again, you can always make your own if pressed! > Joe Giliberti -Seth From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jul 16 14:28:11 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:28:11 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Sellam Ismail > >> Anyway, it was a nice intellectual exercise. >> >> > > Or an excellent example of a Rube Goldberg machine? :) > > Nah, a Rube Goldberg inspired solution would have included paper cups, string, an acoustic coupler or two, several amps, one of those dancing ipod dog things, a fan, a spoon, a ball, several springs, a toy monkey (or two), and to keep it on topic (barely) a paper tape puncher. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jul 16 14:37:16 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:37:16 -0500 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <200807161825.m6GIPVJB028872@floodgap.com> References: <200807161825.m6GIPVJB028872@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <487E4DEC.2040407@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> P.S. The folly of storing cassette data in MP3 format has been discussed >> here in detail before. >> >> DON'T DO IT. >> >> Use WAV only. > > Actually, I like AIFF since it's guaranteed to be non compressed (instead > of AIFC). WAV could have compression too thanks to Microsoft extending > the format to be a generic audio container. The solution to that is FLAC. Losslessly compressed, open source decoder. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 16 14:38:12 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Nah, a Rube Goldberg inspired solution would have included paper cups, > string, an acoustic coupler or two, several amps, one of those dancing > ipod dog things, a fan, a spoon, a ball, several springs, a toy monkey > (or two), and to keep it on topic (barely) a paper tape puncher. . . . and the printer output feeding straight into the Automatic Document Feeder of the OCR scanner? From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 14:39:28 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:39:28 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 4000/60: from dumpster to desktop In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <487E4E70.3020702@gmail.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: >> Hello all. >> I picked up this morning a VAXstation 4000/60 from the local recycling >> center's computer dumpster. I could not find the monitor or keyboard. Is >> there any way to make a VGA monitor, and PS/2 Keyboard/mouse work on this >> machine? > > Did it include the monitor cable? If I remember right, the 4000 used > a 3W3 (*NOT* 13W3) connector for video, which might be hard to come > by. But if you can find a 3W3 connector, you can make your own 3W3 to > VGA cable fairly easily. Any monitor that does Sync-on-Green should > work. Most 17-inch and larger CRT displays seem to have this feature. > I've even used my ViewSonic VP201b LCD display -- the analog input > does sync-on-green, which I've found to be incredibly useful. It's FAR easier to find a 3w3->3BNC cable than to find a bare 3w3 connector. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 14:52:51 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:52:51 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> Nah, a Rube Goldberg inspired solution would have included paper cups, >> string, an acoustic coupler or two, several amps, one of those dancing >> ipod dog things, a fan, a spoon, a ball, several springs, a toy monkey >> (or two), and to keep it on topic (barely) a paper tape puncher. > > . . . and the printer output feeding straight into the Automatic Document > Feeder of the OCR scanner? I've done that to do a file transfer before. Peace... Sridhar From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jul 16 15:15:51 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WANTED: Macintosh IIx In-Reply-To: <63574.67.93.24.222.1216236227.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> References: <63574.67.93.24.222.1216236227.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <58646.67.93.24.222.1216239351.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> grrr... sorry for the wasted electrons/photons/chronons? Meant to go to just Sellam. -- Curt > > > > Sellam, > > I had one of these at one time... I'll dig to see if I still have it > (but it might have left my posession some time back upgraded to a IIfx > (my first IIfx was an upgraded IIx)). > > I'll let you know if I have one. > > -- Curt > >> I require a Macintosh IIx. Not a II, not a IIfx, nor a IIcx nor IIci, >> but >> a IIx. >> >> If you have one and wish to sell it, please contact me ASAP. >> >> Any physical/cosmetic condition (within reason, i.e. nothing that's been >> through a crusher) is acceptable. It need not be functional. >> >> Thanks! >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> Festival >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> http://www.vintage.org >> >> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage >> Computers >> ] >> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >> >> > > From db at db.net Wed Jul 16 15:18:26 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:18:26 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 03:52:51PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >>Nah, a Rube Goldberg inspired solution would have included paper cups, > >>string, an acoustic coupler or two, several amps, one of those dancing > >>ipod dog things, a fan, a spoon, a ball, several springs, a toy monkey > >>(or two), and to keep it on topic (barely) a paper tape puncher. > > > >. . . and the printer output feeding straight into the Automatic Document > >Feeder of the OCR scanner? > > I've done that to do a file transfer before. Both ways. Barefoot. In the snow. Uphill both ways. etc. etc. Actually, I wrote some 6502 asm to bit bang out the game port data, ttl rs232 ;-). It isn't that hard. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From hugh at blemings.org Wed Jul 16 15:20:32 2008 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:20:32 +1000 Subject: Free: Apple odds and Ends In-Reply-To: <575131af0807161118yed46550qc475206171648f4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080716220445.0da7af2e.hugh@blemings.org> <575131af0807161118yed46550qc475206171648f4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080717062032.f404a1a0.hugh@blemings.org> Hi Liam, > > Two new 3Com EtherLink SE 3C563 cards - 10Base-T and AUI port 10Mbit for Mac SE > > This is probably a stupid question, but this wouldn't work in an > SE/30, would it? No, afraid not, I believe they're very much specific to the SE. Cheers, Hugh From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Wed Jul 16 15:26:49 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:26:49 -0700 Subject: Flex circuit repair ?? References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000b01c8e782$46de07e0$0301a8c0@hal9000> This is probably a " Tony " question but I'll take answers from anyone in the know.... How can you remove the " Kapton " looking covering off of a flex circuit without jacking-up the circuit traces underneath so as to repair same ?? Heat sorta works but makes a huge mess .... This crap is used in many of my HP calculators and some old computers. Thanks for any advice !! Best regards, Steven From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 16 15:28:27 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAXstation 4000/60: from dumpster to desktop In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550807161202w1cd15b13w94f353470a9f8509@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200807162028.m6GKSSrd028633@onyx.spiritone.com> > Hello all. > I picked up this morning a VAXstation 4000/60 from the local recycling > center's computer dumpster. I could not find the monitor or keyboard. Is > there any way to make a VGA monitor, and PS/2 Keyboard/mouse work on this > machine? It's easier just to plug a serial terminal in and access it via the network. I don't run a monitor on any of my VAXen, and rarely on an Alpha. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 16 15:33:50 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080716133254.E22357@shell.lmi.net> > > . . . and the printer output feeding straight into the Automatic Document > > Feeder of the OCR scanner? On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I've done that to do a file transfer before. My favorite was Rochester Dynatypers and KGS-80s to transfer TRS80 to Merganthaler From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 15:56:33 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:56:33 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> Message-ID: <487E6081.7030103@gmail.com> Diane Bruce wrote: >>>> Nah, a Rube Goldberg inspired solution would have included paper cups, >>>> string, an acoustic coupler or two, several amps, one of those dancing >>>> ipod dog things, a fan, a spoon, a ball, several springs, a toy monkey >>>> (or two), and to keep it on topic (barely) a paper tape puncher. >>> . . . and the printer output feeding straight into the Automatic Document >>> Feeder of the OCR scanner? >> I've done that to do a file transfer before. > > Both ways. Barefoot. In the snow. Uphill both ways. etc. etc. Except I wasn't kidding. I had an IBM mainframe with only SNA capabilities, and a Honeywell-Bull machine with no network interfaces at all. I used the lineprinter on the Bull to print, drum-scanned it into an IBM PS/2, then used a Microchannel 3270 emulation card as the main console of the IBM mainframe to transfer the file to the mainframe. Took a while, but worked just fine. Made a good pile of money on that one. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 15 22:03:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:03:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Flex circuit repair ?? In-Reply-To: <000b01c8e782$46de07e0$0301a8c0@hal9000> from "Scanning" at Jul 16, 8 01:26:49 pm Message-ID: > > This is probably a " Tony " question but I'll take answers from anyone in > the know.... > > How can you remove the " Kapton " looking covering off of a flex circuit > without jacking-up the circuit traces underneath so as to repair same ?? > > Heat sorta works but makes a huge mess .... This crap is used in many of my > HP calculators and some old computers. Thanks for any advice !! Waht machine are you repairing? The easiest way, alas, is to find a replacement flexiprint, possibly from a machine with defective custom chips. Is the re pace to rpelace it with conventional ribbon cable? I did that in an HP71 once. I have never managed to repair the flexiprint in a Thinkjet printer. The ink corrodes the carriage end of the flexiprint, ruining the connections to the cartridge :-( -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 16 16:24:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:24:37 -0700 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <487E6081.7030103@gmail.com> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com>, <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net>, <487E6081.7030103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <487E04A5.5524.10F73441@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2008 at 16:56, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Except I wasn't kidding. I had an IBM mainframe with only SNA > capabilities, and a Honeywell-Bull machine with no network interfaces at > all. I used the lineprinter on the Bull to print, drum-scanned it into > an IBM PS/2, then used a Microchannel 3270 emulation card as the main > console of the IBM mainframe to transfer the file to the mainframe. > Took a while, but worked just fine. Has anyone used a camera and software to transfer data from a system's CRT display? I've come close to doing that once or twice, but never actually tried it. I found that I could get pretty fine program control on a status LED and taped a phototransistor over it and sent the data as a serial stream. It worked better than I'd thought it would. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 16 16:28:53 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:28:53 -0700 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <487E6815.30900@brouhaha.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Finally, Apple-1 BASIC is simply "Integer BASIC", which came with the > Apple ][ and is pretty readily available itself. Apple 1 BASIC is very close to but not identical to Apple II Integer BASIC. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jul 16 17:07:40 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:07:40 -0300 Subject: Flex circuit repair ?? References: Message-ID: <010601c8e790$6a015c00$160c010a@portajara> > I have never managed to repair the flexiprint in a Thinkjet printer. The > ink corrodes the carriage end of the flexiprint, ruining the connections > to the cartridge :-( A dremel tool and a sand attachment does wonders. It grinds enough the plastic to expose the metal part, which you can solder or use conductive paint. From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jul 16 18:41:11 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:41:11 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? Message-ID: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> I've found machine that I think is a prototype for the Osborne Vixen. >From the outside the case looks exactly like a Vixen case except that mine is a ugly brown color rather than the grey/white color scheme you usually see and when you open it up it's slightly different from a "production" Vixen - the floppy drives in mine are horizontal rather than vertical and the back panel is re-arranged a little. There are no labels of any kind on the machine except for the giant "OSBORNE" that's molded into the plastic, and the PCB inside says "Osborne Computer Corp, Rev 2". When you turn it on, though, it identifies itself as an "OCC 4" and asks for a boot diskette, so I'm thinking that must be what it is. Has anybody seen a Vixen in this style? None of the photos I've found on the web look like this configuration. And does anybody have software for the OCC4? Will the boot diskettes for an OCC1 or Executive work on it? Thanks, Bob Armstrong From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 16 19:00:02 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:00:02 -0400 Subject: IBM 360 Mod 70 picture desired. Message-ID: <200807170000.m6H005HB051795@keith.ezwind.net> Hi all, I am looking for information and most importantly a picture of the IBM 360 mod 70. What I know about it is : It was introduced in 1964 along with the "30, 40, 50, and 60's. There were mockups and photos of the 360 family made, 8x10's were sent out to key sales people and press as part of a product launch kit of some sort, most with an assortment of disclaimers on the back. As I understand it, the 360 Mod 70 was never shipped. But what happened to it? It has been said that it evolved into the Mod 75 before it hit the streets. Was it shipped to an undisclosed location, under a new GSA number? Or was it scrapped early in life, and gave up its core to something else? if so what? My first question is what did it, or was it suspose to look like. What I am real interested in is any picture showing the console. Bob Bradlee From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jul 16 19:17:29 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> References: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Bob Armstrong wrote: > I've found machine that I think is a prototype for the Osborne Vixen. >> From the outside the case looks exactly like a Vixen case except that mine > is a ugly brown color rather than the grey/white color scheme you usually > see and when you open it up it's slightly different from a "production" > Vixen - the floppy drives in mine are horizontal rather than vertical and > the back panel is re-arranged a little. There are no labels of any kind on > the machine except for the giant "OSBORNE" that's molded into the plastic, > and the PCB inside says "Osborne Computer Corp, Rev 2". When you turn it > on, though, it identifies itself as an "OCC 4" and asks for a boot diskette, > so I'm thinking that must be what it is. I have a Vixen that looks exactly like the one here: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/osborne/index.htm ...except that it has no nameplate on the front and no labels in the back. There are no signs that it ever had them. Mine powers up with "OCC4 1.04" with a copyright date of 1984, and asks for a disk. http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Osborne/Vixen.html Dave has a set of disks for the Vixen: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img03806/d/o4vixen.zip They work on my machine. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 19:22:37 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:22:37 -0400 Subject: IBM 360 Mod 70 picture desired. In-Reply-To: <200807170000.m6H005HB051795@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200807170000.m6H005HB051795@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <487E90CD.4010906@gmail.com> Bob Bradlee wrote: > Hi all, > I am looking for information and most importantly a picture of the IBM 360 mod 70. > What I know about it is : > > It was introduced in 1964 along with the "30, 40, 50, and 60's. > > There were mockups and photos of the 360 family made, 8x10's were sent out to key sales people and > press as part of a product launch kit of some sort, most with an assortment of disclaimers on the back. > > As I understand it, the 360 Mod 70 was never shipped. > But what happened to it? > It has been said that it evolved into the Mod 75 before it hit the streets. > Was it shipped to an undisclosed location, under a new GSA number? > Or was it scrapped early in life, and gave up its core to something else? > if so what? > > My first question is what did it, or was it suspose to look like. > What I am real interested in is any picture showing the console. I thought the S/360/70 was just *renamed* the S/360/75 for marketing reasons. Peace... Sridhar From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 16 19:32:25 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:32:25 -0700 Subject: IBM 360 Mod 70 picture desired. In-Reply-To: <200807170000.m6H005HB051795@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200807170000.m6H005HB051795@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <487E9319.1030309@brouhaha.com> Bob wrote: > As I understand it, the 360 Mod 70 was never shipped. > But what happened to it? > It has been said that it evolved into the Mod 75 before it hit the streets. As far as I've ever heard, no model 60, 62, or 70 systems were ever built. I would expect that the prototype hardware in development became the 65 and 75 prototypes. > Was it shipped to an undisclosed location, under a new GSA number? That seems extremely unlikely. What use would the government have had for an unsupported prototype machine? Even if the machine existed, it wouldn't have been worthwhile for the government to buy it, or for IBM to sell it (or even give it away). Supporting a prototype machine at a customer site would have been a nightmare. When the government purchased one-off (or nearly one-off) machines from IBM, they did so because they wanted machines with capabilities not available from the normal product line, and the machines were still considered to be production, fully supported IBM products, e.g. the two 360/95 systems built for NASA, or the one-of-a-kind HARVEST (IBM 7950 Data Processing System) build for the NSA. > My first question is what did it, or was it suspose to look like. > What I am real interested in is any picture showing the console. If a model 70 had been built, the console would probably have looked about the same as the console of the model 75. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 16 19:33:03 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:33:03 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> References: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> Message-ID: <487E30CF.32293.11A3B64F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2008 at 16:41, Bob Armstrong wrote: > I've found machine that I think is a prototype for the Osborne Vixen. > >From the outside the case looks exactly like a Vixen case except that mine > is a ugly brown color rather than the grey/white color scheme you usually > see and when you open it up it's slightly different from a "production" > Vixen - the floppy drives in mine are horizontal rather than vertical and > the back panel is re-arranged a little. There are no labels of any kind on > the machine except for the giant "OSBORNE" that's molded into the plastic, > and the PCB inside says "Osborne Computer Corp, Rev 2". When you turn it > on, though, it identifies itself as an "OCC 4" and asks for a boot diskette, > so I'm thinking that must be what it is. Is that "ugly brown" the color of the foam on a root-beer float? If so, that's the color of the high-density foam used to make cases. Maybe not a prototype, but at least unpainted. Could be a Vixen cobbled together for internal use (by the technical staff) or by some enterprising technician who got his hands on a pile of parts. The prototype O1 that I saw didn't have a case. It was simply a bunch of stuff wired up and strewn across a tabletop at Sorcim. Back then, a lot of model shops would machine up prototype cases from acrylic sheet and have then painted. It was usual for the molding shops to produce a few unpainted "proof" cases of the structural foam for the customer's approval--that's likely what you've got. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 19:33:28 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:33:28 -0400 Subject: IBM 360 Mod 70 picture desired. In-Reply-To: <200807170000.m6H005HB051795@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200807170000.m6H005HB051795@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > As I understand it, the 360 Mod 70 was never shipped. > But what happened to it? > > It has been said that it evolved into the Mod 75 before it hit the streets. > Was it shipped to an undisclosed location, under a new GSA number? > Or was it scrapped early in life, and gave up its core to something else? > if so what? Was it ever built? I would guess it was no more than paper. Not weird or shameful...every company has a few abortions. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 16 19:38:27 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:38:27 -0700 Subject: IBM 360 Mod 70 picture desired. In-Reply-To: <487E90CD.4010906@gmail.com> References: <200807170000.m6H005HB051795@keith.ezwind.net> <487E90CD.4010906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <487E9483.5050305@brouhaha.com> Sridhar wrote: > I thought the S/360/70 was just *renamed* the S/360/75 for marketing > reasons. Models 60, 62, and 70 were announced in April of 1964. During development, they improved the designs enough that they substantially exceeded the promised performance, and eliminated the reason for having separate models 60 and 62. Rather than introducing the machines under those previously announced model numbers, which would have led to confusion regarding the specs, they announced them as the models 65 and 75. Eric From db at db.net Wed Jul 16 19:44:23 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:44:23 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <487E6081.7030103@gmail.com> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> <487E6081.7030103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080717004423.GA57893@night.db.net> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 04:56:33PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Diane Bruce wrote: > >>>>Nah, a Rube Goldberg inspired solution would have included paper cups, ... > > > >Both ways. Barefoot. In the snow. Uphill both ways. etc. etc. > > Except I wasn't kidding. I had an IBM mainframe with only SNA I'm sorry it came across that way. ;-) > capabilities, and a Honeywell-Bull machine with no network interfaces at > all. I used the lineprinter on the Bull to print, drum-scanned it into > an IBM PS/2, then used a Microchannel 3270 emulation card as the main > console of the IBM mainframe to transfer the file to the mainframe. > Took a while, but worked just fine. That's way cool. 'drum-scanned' ? The first OCR stuff I worked on developing was a page scanner, not very practical for books. ;-) It was fun doing it on a pair of PDP-11/23's though. > > Made a good pile of money on that one. > > Peace... Sridhar > - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jul 16 20:06:22 2008 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:06:22 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> (Bob Armstrong's message of "Wed\, 16 Jul 2008 16\:41\:11 -0700") References: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> Message-ID: <200807170106.m6H16NeD008365@lots.reanimators.org> Bob Armstrong wrote: > I've found machine that I think is a prototype for the Osborne Vixen. > From the outside the case looks exactly like a Vixen case except that mine > is a ugly brown color rather than the grey/white color scheme you usually > see and when you open it up it's slightly different from a "production" > Vixen - the floppy drives in mine are horizontal rather than vertical and > the back panel is re-arranged a little. There are no labels of any kind on > the machine except for the giant "OSBORNE" that's molded into the plastic, > and the PCB inside says "Osborne Computer Corp, Rev 2". When you turn it > on, though, it identifies itself as an "OCC 4" and asks for a boot diskette, > so I'm thinking that must be what it is. > Has anybody seen a Vixen in this style? None of the photos I've found on > the web look like this configuration. I'm remembering.... There was an issue of Microcomputing/Kilobaud that ran photos of Adam Osborne showing the Executive and the Vixen, and the Vixen in those photos had drives in the "other" orientation from the example I have. I don't recall which issue this was, but am certain that it was in Microcomputing/Kilobaud, and I'm thinking it was the issue that went to press just after OCC filed Chapter 11. I'm thinking the unit shown may have had a smaller CRT than the production Vixen/OCC4 too. > And does anybody have software for the OCC4? Will the boot diskettes for > an OCC1 or Executive work on it? I think I've got it but it'll take a while for me to get to 'em. -Frank McConnell From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jul 16 21:25:57 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:25:57 -0500 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> Message-ID: <1817A3C575F9@dunfield.com> > And does anybody have software for the OCC4? Will the boot diskettes for > an OCC1 or Executive work on it? I have images of the O4 (Vixen) disks up on my site. www.classiccmp.org/dunfield - Visit "Software/Images" near the end of the main page. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jul 16 21:25:57 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:25:57 -0500 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: References: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> Message-ID: <1817A3771BAE@dunfield.com> > Dave has a set of disks for the Vixen: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img03806/d/o4vixen.zip > > They work on my machine. I was wondering if you could explain to me what is not clear about this request, which is posted (bolded) at both the top and bottom of my disk images page: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please DO NOT link to any section below this page - It is important that anyone accessing these files view this page first. NOTE: These pages are moved on a regular basis to discourage direct links. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- You couldn't possibly have gotten to the file you posted without passing through this page - there simply are no other stable links to that file than on the page carrying these notices. I'm trying to understand why people are don't see or understand this simple request - I think it's a reasonable request... There are notices on the images page that I want people to see before downloading files. Plus, the images page will give them access to the tools and information they need to recreate disks from the images. And ... they even get a little description telling them that the file they are downloading might be. Yet people ignore this request, and continue to post broken links (fwiw, the link you posted is broken by now). The best way to access the disk image archive is by going to the main site: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield And clicking on the "Download Software/Images" link at the bottom of the main page. If you really just can't bear to go to the main site, then the images page itself is relatively stable: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.htm although I won't make any guarantees about this. Anything further in *IS* guaranteed to NOT be stable, and moves on a regular basis. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:41:18 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:41:18 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080717004423.GA57893@night.db.net> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> <487E6081.7030103@gmail.com> <20080717004423.GA57893@night.db.net> Message-ID: <487EA33E.3060902@gmail.com> Diane Bruce wrote: >>>>>> Nah, a Rube Goldberg inspired solution would have included paper cups, > ... >>> Both ways. Barefoot. In the snow. Uphill both ways. etc. etc. >> Except I wasn't kidding. I had an IBM mainframe with only SNA > > I'm sorry it came across that way. ;-) 8-) >> capabilities, and a Honeywell-Bull machine with no network interfaces at >> all. I used the lineprinter on the Bull to print, drum-scanned it into >> an IBM PS/2, then used a Microchannel 3270 emulation card as the main >> console of the IBM mainframe to transfer the file to the mainframe. >> Took a while, but worked just fine. > > That's way cool. 'drum-scanned' ? The first OCR stuff I worked on developing > was a page scanner, not very practical for books. ;-) It was fun doing it > on a pair of PDP-11/23's though. This actually wasn't all that long ago. Certainly recent enough for drum-scanners to be somewhat more common than they used to be. Surprisingly, there are still companies out there running Bull DPS9000-class mainframes. Not many, but one here and there. These people had been doing their data transfers in and out of their DPS8 box by tape, but their last tape drive had just died, and so they decided to rid themselves of the machine. However, they had some data they hadn't backed up, and they wanted it in an IBM format. I just drum-scanned into TIFF and used OCR software on the PS/2 to do the heavy lifting. I used the PS/2 because 3270/A cards are a dime a dozen and I happen to have a rather large pile of PS/2 equipment lying around. Peace... Sridhar From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 16 20:50:49 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:50:49 -0700 Subject: deep linking policy (was Re: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype?) In-Reply-To: <1817A3771BAE@dunfield.com> References: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> <1817A3771BAE@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <487EA579.50707@brouhaha.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I was wondering if you could explain to me what is not clear about > this request, which is posted (bolded) at both the top and bottom > of my disk images page: The problem is the usage model of the web. Just because something happens to be on a page, at the top or bottom (or both), doesn't mean that anyone is going to bother to read it. Your URL randomization scheme is a (somewhat) reasonable way to prevent deep linking. Expecting people not to do so simply out of respect for a statement on a web page that they may or may not have actually read is doomed to failure. > I'm trying to understand why people are don't see or understand this simple > request If I search for "sinusoidal depleneration" using a search engine, and go to a web page from the results, I'm more likely to just hit control-F and search for that term within the page, rather than bother to read notices at the top of the page. > I think it's a reasonable request... Opinions are bound to vary on that. I would argue that simply by virtue of that fact that almost no web sites make such a request, that it is effectively not reasonable. Best regards, Eric From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:56:06 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:56:06 -0400 Subject: deep linking policy (was Re: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype?) In-Reply-To: <487EA579.50707@brouhaha.com> References: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> <1817A3771BAE@dunfield.com> <487EA579.50707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <487EA6B6.2010303@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I was wondering if you could explain to me what is not clear about >> this request, which is posted (bolded) at both the top and bottom >> of my disk images page: > > The problem is the usage model of the web. Just because something > happens to be on a page, at the top or bottom (or both), doesn't mean > that anyone is going to bother to read it. > > Your URL randomization scheme is a (somewhat) reasonable way to prevent > deep linking. Expecting people not to do so simply out of respect for a > statement on a web page that they may or may not have actually read is > doomed to failure. Dave, You can always have your web server software check the referring URL for all of your downloadable files to make sure that people are clicking through your website. Not foolproof, but it'll work the vast majority of the time. Peace... Sridhar From spc at conman.org Wed Jul 16 21:05:25 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:05:25 -0400 Subject: deep linking policy (was Re: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype?) In-Reply-To: <487EA6B6.2010303@gmail.com> References: <003501c8e79d$6e67d780$4b378680$@com> <1817A3771BAE@dunfield.com> <487EA579.50707@brouhaha.com> <487EA6B6.2010303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080717020525.GA11732@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sridhar Ayengar once stated: > Eric Smith wrote: > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>I was wondering if you could explain to me what is not clear about > >>this request, which is posted (bolded) at both the top and bottom > >>of my disk images page: > > > >The problem is the usage model of the web. Just because something > >happens to be on a page, at the top or bottom (or both), doesn't mean > >that anyone is going to bother to read it. > > > >Your URL randomization scheme is a (somewhat) reasonable way to prevent > >deep linking. Expecting people not to do so simply out of respect for a > >statement on a web page that they may or may not have actually read is > >doomed to failure. > > Dave, > > You can always have your web server software check the referring URL for > all of your downloadable files to make sure that people are clicking > through your website. Not foolproof, but it'll work the vast majority > of the time. And on the page you want people to hit first, add the following to the section: That means (to the search engines that respect it, like Google) to index the contents of the page, but not to follow any links (like, to the individual files). -spc From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jul 16 21:18:40 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:18:40 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? Message-ID: <003c01c8e7b3$6e19b580$4a4d2080$@com> >Mike Lowen wrote: >Mine powers up with "OCC4 1.04" Mine says "1.01" - I wonder if an EPROM update is called for too? >Chuck Guzis wrote: >Is that "ugly brown" the color of the foam on a root-beer float? No, it's a very dark chocolate (I guess most people would just say "black"). Judging from the photos I've seen, I'd guess that my whole case is about the color of the end panels on a "production" Vixen. And it's not structural foam or acrylic or painted as far as I can tell. I took a few photos - http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Vixen1.jpg http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Vixen2.jpg http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Vixen3.jpg http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Vixen4.jpg Notice the horizontal floppy drives... To Dave Dunfield, et al - thanks for the pointers to the diskette images. Bob From db at db.net Wed Jul 16 21:19:39 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:19:39 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <487EA33E.3060902@gmail.com> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> <487E6081.7030103@gmail.com> <20080717004423.GA57893@night.db.net> <487EA33E.3060902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080717021939.GA63313@night.db.net> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 09:41:18PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Diane Bruce wrote: ... > This actually wasn't all that long ago. Certainly recent enough for > drum-scanners to be somewhat more common than they used to be. Ah, just read up on it on wiki. The ones we were using were rotary scanners, we had an early CCD array a whopping 1024 pixels in one line as I recall (this was a while ago), a rubber roller pulled the page through. There was some code to try to 'straighten' the page in software and then the OCR code itself. It was DMA'd into one PDP-11/23 then DMA'd across to the other PDP-11/23 for operator intervention. > Surprisingly, there are still companies out there running Bull > DPS9000-class mainframes. Not many, but one here and there. These I'm not at all surprised. > people had been doing their data transfers in and out of their DPS8 box > by tape, but their last tape drive had just died, and so they decided to > rid themselves of the machine. However, they had some data they hadn't > backed up, and they wanted it in an IBM format. I still have a few 9t reels sitting around, they have all turned into goo I'm afraid. I wasn't that careful with storage. > I just drum-scanned into TIFF and used OCR software on the PS/2 to do > the heavy lifting. I used the PS/2 because 3270/A cards are a dime a > dozen and I happen to have a rather large pile of PS/2 equipment lying > around. cool. > > Peace... Sridhar > - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jul 16 21:27:41 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:27:41 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? Message-ID: <003d01c8e7b4$b0276340$107629c0$@com> > Mike Loewen wrote: > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Osborne/Vixen.html P.S. I found your site earlier today with Google. Thanks for all the good photos - it's one of the things that convinced me that I really did have an OCC4. Bob From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 16 22:44:50 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 03:44:50 +0000 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20080717034450.GB20783@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 04:18:26PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote: > > I've done that to do a file transfer before. > > Both ways. Barefoot. In the snow. Uphill both ways. etc. etc. > > Actually, I wrote some 6502 asm to bit bang out the game port > data, ttl rs232 ;-). It isn't that hard. Did that to move Infocom game sectors from an Apple II to a C-64. It was a bit rough, but with both CPUs bit-banging away at 1200 baud, it took a while. In the end, though, the operation was a success. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jul-2008 at 03:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -87.7 F (-66.5 C) Windchill -123.7 F (-86.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.2 kts Grid 59 Barometer 675.8 mb (10787 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 16 22:45:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:45:25 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <003c01c8e7b3$6e19b580$4a4d2080$@com> References: <003c01c8e7b3$6e19b580$4a4d2080$@com> Message-ID: <487E5DE5.29857.1253D111@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2008 at 19:18, Bob Armstrong wrote: > No, it's a very dark chocolate (I guess most people would just say > "black"). Judging from the photos I've seen, I'd guess that my whole case > is about the color of the end panels on a "production" Vixen. And it's not > structural foam or acrylic or painted as far as I can tell. > > I took a few photos - > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Vixen1.jpg > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Vixen2.jpg > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Vixen3.jpg > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Vixen4.jpg > > Notice the horizontal floppy drives... It looks like a Vixen case, just black-ish, but same off-white handle. The motherboard looks to have the same connector positions as the Vixen. But that little monitor! What could the people at OCC been thinking? One would have thought that they would have learned their lesson on that one. Wonder if yours is a "concept" system, trotted out for the marketing people. Or maybe a way to get rid of a warehouse full of 5" O1 monitor assemblies? Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 16 23:34:45 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:34:45 -0700 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080717034450.GB20783@usap.gov> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> <20080717034450.GB20783@usap.gov> Message-ID: <487ECBE5.90204@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote about bit-banging serial between two computers: > Did that to move Infocom game sectors from an Apple II to a C-64. Amazing! I did the exact same thing, when I owned the Apple II games but wanted to play them on a C-64 at school. On later occasions, I transferred Infocom game images serially from an Atari 800 to the Apple II, from the Apple II to an IBM PC, and from the IBM PC to a Mac, but I didn't have to write any bit-banging code for any of those. I also wrote a Turbo Pascal program on the PC to read Infocom games from Kaypro disks. I'd reverse-engineered the Apple II Infocom interpreter myself around 1982-1983, and based on that wrote my own in Turbo Pascal in 1985. I should have posted it to comp.sources back then, but since Infocom was still a going concern at the time, I was afraid they would sue me. Unfortunately I no longer have any of the software I wrote in that era. A friend kept a printed listing of my reverse-engineered source code for the Apple II interpreter, so I've got a PDF of scan of it here: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/if/zip/ Eric From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jul 17 00:09:19 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:09:19 +0000 Subject: meta-gaming Infocom games (was Re: Apple I BASIC dump) In-Reply-To: <487ECBE5.90204@brouhaha.com> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> <20080717034450.GB20783@usap.gov> <487ECBE5.90204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080717050919.GA24784@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 09:34:45PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote about bit-banging serial between two computers: > >Did that to move Infocom game sectors from an Apple II to a C-64. > > Amazing! I did the exact same thing, when I owned the Apple II games > but wanted to play them on a C-64 at school. I was testing the Spartan Mimic, a bolt-on-the-side Apple II "emulator" for the C-64 (it was really more of a headless Apple clone that could run parasitically from the C-64). At one point, to show that things wouldn't lock up, mostly, I was running two simultaneous Infocom games, one on the C-64 CPU and one on the Mimic CPU, then switching between them with the keyboard shortcuts while each one loaded the results from the latest command. Due to disk I/O, the Apple side was much faster than the C-64 side, but that's hardly a revalation. > On later occasions, I transferred Infocom game images serially from an > Atari 800 to the Apple II, from the Apple II to an IBM PC, and from the > IBM PC to a Mac, but I didn't have to write any bit-banging code for any > of those. I've done similar things with slightly different platforms (I wasn't ever into the Atari universe, and I only had an Apple II because one of my early jobs was writing children's software for it - I pretty much stayed with Commodore from the days of the 8K PET all the way through until I bought an Amiga 4000 in NZ and refitted the PSU to work in the U.S.) One unusual platform for my game file transformations was VMS. I got the ITF V3 interpreter working on the 11/750 running VMS 4.6 at work in the early 1990s, so I needed to snarf game files from my original C-64 disks. That was a chore. I forget exactly how I did it, but it probably involved writing a program to read the sectors in game order (slightly dependent on exactly which of the three C-64 interpreters was on the game disk), then pushing them up a dial-up pipe to work (I never brought my C-64 in... it was all done remotely) then reassembling the fragments into a working game file. I only did that for a few games (Zork I, II, III, Starcross, and Planetfall, IIRC). > I also wrote a Turbo Pascal program on the PC to read Infocom > games from Kaypro disks. Pascal was never a language I liked to use, but I did a lot of game file fiddling with stuff I wrote in C. > I'd reverse-engineered the Apple II Infocom interpreter myself around > 1982-1983, and based on that wrote my own in Turbo Pascal in 1985. I > should have posted it to comp.sources back then, but since Infocom was > still a going concern at the time, I was afraid they would sue me. > Unfortunately I no longer have any of the software I wrote in that era. Unfortunate. > A friend kept a printed listing of my reverse-engineered source code for > the Apple II interpreter, so I've got a PDF of scan of it here: > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/if/zip/ I've seen it (and have a copy). My similar project was to reverse-engineer the first version of the C-64 interpreter, as shipped with Zork I, into mostly-commented source that compiles back to the original binary. I started back in the late 1980s, then dropped it for a while, since assembly development on the C-64 is really a pain, but then when VICE matured enough to be useful, I picked up the project again, but this time using a SPARCstation as my emulation and development platform. Editing source on a workstation display then running the binary without having to cut floppies sped things along at a dizzying rate by comparison. So about 10 years ago, I was able to run the C-64 code on a VIC-20 (with the interpreter living up in ROM cartridge space). Just this past month, I finally figured out two bugs - one zero-page-related, one 40-column-related, so that now, I can run Infocom games on a PET! I first ran across Zork when it was fresh and new on the TRS-80. Since I'd played a few Scott Adams games (writing an interpreter for the PET on Supermon before I had a disk drive or assembler), the richness of the interaction was stunning. I read the articles that are now easy to find from Creative Computing and the IEEE journal (courtesy of the nearby college engineering library), but was thwarted at playing them myself until late 1983 when the games were put out for the C-64. The only practical application for my porting the games to the PET is to prove to myself, if noone else, that they _could_ have supported the platform if they'd decided there would be enough sales to warrant (which there probably would not have been, given the immense cost of a 32K PET and a 4040 disk drive when Infocom was just starting out - not so many folks had a system that decked out). Obviously, by 1982-1983, when they would have been writing the C-64 interpreter, it had already established itself as an affordable platform with a large userbase. I've written plenty of Infocom-related tools over the years (fortunately in my case, I still have +90% of what I've written still around), but one thing I've never done is to write an interpreter from scratch. The closest I've come is to help Mike Reilly, author of ElfOS, debug a V3 interpreter for the 1802. Since I've owned an Elf since the late 1970s, it was a real thrill to port the games to that platform - another case of "could have done it if they'd wanted to" for one of the machines that shaped my formative years. Of course, it's much easier for us now with modern tools and modern understanding of 1970s architectures, so what was once a major commercial development undertaking is now a hobby project of a few weeks. The evolution of my C-64 interpreter reverse-engineering project is a clear demonstration of that - going from 40-column poking around to a nearly instant edit-compile-test cycle on modern hardware, aided by web-based hyperlinked ROM listings. A completely different environment, but in the end, it all just comes down to the ">" prompt. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jul-2008 at 04:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -87.2 F (-66.2 C) Windchill -118.7 F (-83.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.3 kts Grid 59 Barometer 675.6 mb (10795 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 11:20:58 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:20:58 -0500 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <487E00AF.9090905@arachelian.com> References: <487E00AF.9090905@arachelian.com> Message-ID: see, its not a matter of not going in or coming out, it does that fine, but when i put the floppy in, it barely reads, and a second later spits it right back out and gives me the X disk icon. what exactly does the floppy need to be a bootable system disk? On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > joe lobocki wrote: > >> hello, >> anybody know where I can get an 800k drive for my mac SE? mine seems to >> have >> quit working. thanks >> -Joe >> >> >> > I'd try to repair it first... see: > http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-floppy_lube.html > > There probably are other instructions on the web as well. Note that the > above is for 400K floppies, which should be very similar, but be aware that > the stuff about "felt" on the top of the drive arm isn't going to apply as > you'd have a real read/write head there instead. :-) > From jmmolloy at juno.com Wed Jul 16 12:30:16 2008 From: jmmolloy at juno.com (James M Molloy) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:30:16 -0400 Subject: VAX equipment Message-ID: <20080716.133017.28700.2.jmmolloy@juno.com> My company had a cash flow problem and had to close the office. We thought we might come out of it and saved our system in my garage. We did not turn around and so I have a VAX with DecServers and a printer to divest. I also included the VMS documents. Primarily I would be happy to work with someone to relieve me of the hardware. Jim Molloy 221 Howe Ave. Passaic NJ 07055 973 778 1286 ____________________________________________________________ Live the good life! Click now for great retirement planning assistance! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mK7B4GB411CfVV5RqiVzgQCeOBfIAkLtlSpXefy0C9FmPoe/ From iamvirtual at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 22:01:50 2008 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:01:50 -0600 Subject: VAX Cobol Message-ID: <2645f9870807162001l8a72f9cuc47dbc22bca41699@mail.gmail.com> I am trying to locate a copy of Cobol suitable for OpenVMS 7.3 for my hobbyist VAX 4100 machine. Does anyone know where I could stumble upon a copy? I have also searched for the VAX OpenVMS Software Layered Products Library (AKA the 'motherload'), but have not located a source. I am really interested in a copy of this CD. Thanks! --barrym From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jul 17 01:21:56 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:21:56 +0100 Subject: deep linking policy (was Re: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen)prototype?) In-Reply-To: <20080717020525.GA11732@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <009101c8e7d5$6b004810$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Sean Conner wrote: > And on the page you want people to hit first, add the following to > the section: > > > > That means (to the search engines that respect it, like Google) to > index > the contents of the page, but not to follow any links (like, to the > individual files). Doesn't that mean that the Internete Archive (aka wayback) won't make copies of stuff? This has turned out to be pretty useful in recovering "vanished" stuff before now! Antonio From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jul 17 01:26:56 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:26:56 -0400 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? References: <487E00AF.9090905@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <00a201c8e7d6$1d1174c0$6601a8c0@game> Do you have any disks with an operating system on them? Mac OS 6.08, 7.0, 7.1, etc should work. Do you have another Mac to make system disks with? http://www.info.apple.com/support/oldersoftwarelist.html You can find disk images of OS 6.0.8 at the above link in 800K format. You will need diskcopy 6.3.3 to convert the images to disk. TZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: Re: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? > see, its not a matter of not going in or coming out, it does that fine, > but > when i put the floppy in, it barely reads, and a second later spits it > right > back out and gives me the X disk icon. what exactly does the floppy need > to > be a bootable system disk? > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Ray Arachelian > wrote: > >> joe lobocki wrote: >> >>> hello, >>> anybody know where I can get an 800k drive for my mac SE? mine seems to >>> have >>> quit working. thanks >>> -Joe >>> >>> >>> >> I'd try to repair it first... see: >> http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-floppy_lube.html >> >> There probably are other instructions on the web as well. Note that the >> above is for 400K floppies, which should be very similar, but be aware >> that >> the stuff about "felt" on the top of the drive arm isn't going to apply >> as >> you'd have a real read/write head there instead. :-) >> From eric940 at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 01:29:18 2008 From: eric940 at gmail.com (Eric) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:29:18 -0700 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) Message-ID: Terminal Buffs and others interested: I've seen screen rot before -- even owning one with perimeter symptoms, but this is an example of _extreme_ "screen rot" (separation of the protective plate from the CRT) on an ADM-3a. See picture(s) -- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360070017833 I realize this issue has been brought up and discussed numerous times in the past -- but I thought I'd give ClassicCMP'ers a peek. I'm unsure if we've ever come to the conclusion if this is just an adhesion separation issue resulting in blotches resembling mold, or actual mold causing the separation. (Have we had some sort of cause for this problem?) Anyway, FYI for those interested. May be good for parts, although the initial bid price is a quite high side given the condition. -eric P.S. I have no connection to the seller, am not pushing a purchase in any way. From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 01:19:22 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? Message-ID: Doug Salot (used to be a regular here a long while back) was the first person that I know to find one out in the wild. Judging by the number of people who claim to have one (3-4 it would seem as of now) there are probably a handful that were made for prototypes, and then they decided to rotate the drives for the production models (perhaps to accomodate the larger display?) I have a "normal" Vixen, which are difficult to find themselves. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jul 17 01:34:42 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Eric wrote: > Terminal Buffs and others interested: > > I've seen screen rot before -- even owning one with perimeter > symptoms, but this is an example of _extreme_ "screen rot" (separation > of the protective plate from the CRT) on an ADM-3a. > > See picture(s) -- Eww... That's a teeny bit worse than the rot on the ADM-3A I liquidated a couple months ago. That one sold for $75, I think. This starting price is way out of line. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Jul 17 06:38:59 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:38:59 +0100 Subject: UK101 In-Reply-To: <575131af0807161117qbcae564h7863c82a83b922eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0807161117qbcae564h7863c82a83b922eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <487F2F53.6080907@gifford.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > Anyone interested in this early 8-bit micro? I've just been offered > one for free, but I don't really have the room. Yes, please! I have the UK101 web-site at: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101 > Happy to post it on if the recipient pays P&P from London. I'm sure we could come up with a plan... -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jul 17 08:10:50 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:10:50 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? Message-ID: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com> > Chuck Guzis wrote: > But that little monitor! It is small, isn't it? But it's very sharp, even on 80x24 text, so it's easy to read if you sit about 6" away from the screen. Makes me want to get a Fresnel lens on a swing arm, a la Brazil :-) Bob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 08:24:47 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:24:47 -0500 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <487F481F.8030404@gmail.com> Eric wrote: > Terminal Buffs and others interested: > > I've seen screen rot before -- even owning one with perimeter > symptoms, but this is an example of _extreme_ "screen rot" (separation > of the protective plate from the CRT) on an ADM-3a. That's about how bad the one on the HP-250 display was that I 'attacked'. > I'm unsure if we've ever come to the conclusion if this is just an > adhesion separation issue resulting in blotches resembling mold, or > actual mold causing the separation. (Have we had some sort of cause > for this problem?) I believe Sellam still has an offer open to analyse the decay if someone can send him a sample - I'd already ditched the pile of rot from the HP-250 by that point. cheers Jules From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 09:05:30 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <533512.40304.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Eric wrote: > I've seen screen rot before -- even owning one with > perimeter > symptoms, but this is an example of _extreme_ "screen > rot" (separation > of the protective plate from the CRT) on an ADM-3a. I had an ADM3A with bad rot like that, but I never tried to fix that one. The rest of the terminal was in such terrible shape, it just got parted out. I've got a couple other terminal tubes with light rot forming around the edges though. > I'm unsure if we've ever come to the conclusion if > this is just an > adhesion separation issue resulting in blotches resembling > mold, or > actual mold causing the separation. (Have we had some sort > of cause > for this problem?) I don't know about the terminal picture tubes, or how they're bonded, but I do know that this problem also affects old color television picture tubes as well. The old color tubes from the late 50's/60's will develop similar rot all along the edges, sometimes all the way to the middle. It's referred to as "cataracts". I don't know if it's mold, but it basically results in the breakdown of the PVA bonding compound that holds the safety glass to the face of the tube. To remove it, at least on the TV tubes, you take the the tube out of the set, put it neck down in a large bucket/barrel so that it's supported, and use a heat gun to heat up the screen. After a while, the PVA will soften, and the faceplate can be gently separated from the tube. Don't pry it up - try to gently induce air bubbles under it with wooden shims and heat. Once the bond breaks over most of the tube, the glass should come off without breaking. Then you clean out all the PVA gunk, and reattach the safety glass with packing tape along the edges. I've never run across a terminal that was bad enough to warrent fixing (and where the rest of the terminal was intact enough to bother with). Fortunately, the 12" mono tubes in the ADM3 and the like are pretty easy to find, so replacement is usually an option. Now, with the old color TV tubes, it's a different story. Try finding a replacement 21FJP22! (It's a round, 21" color picture tube, 70 degree deflection angle) Note that on some color TV tubes (Zenith, IIRC), the bonding compound is different and won't come off with a heat gun. Those tubes require "persuasion", in the form of a car battery and nichrome wire. I have no idea what class of bonding compounds the terminals fall under. But, if anyone has a badly delaminated tube, I would be interested to hear how far you get with the heat gun. -Ian From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jul 17 09:26:23 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: <533512.40304.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <533512.40304.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > middle. It's referred to as "cataracts". I don't know if it's mold, but > it basically results in the breakdown of the PVA bonding compound that > holds the safety glass to the face of the tube. To remove it, at least > on the TV tubes, you take the the tube out of the set, put it neck down > in a large bucket/barrel so that it's supported, and use a heat gun to > heat up the screen. After a while, the PVA will soften, and the > faceplate can be gently separated from the tube. Don't pry it up - try > to gently induce air bubbles under it with wooden shims and heat. Once > the bond breaks over most of the tube, the glass should come off without > breaking. Then you clean out all the PVA gunk, and reattach the safety > glass with packing tape along the edges. I have a HP 2647A terminal with a severe case of screen rot which I would like to refurbish: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/HP2647A-1L.jpg http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/ Do you think this would be a candidate for the heat gun method, or acetone around the edges of the shield as others have suggested? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 17 10:37:12 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:37:12 -0700 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on a TEC terminal In-Reply-To: References: <533512.40304.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <487F6728.2030607@sbcglobal.net> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> middle. It's referred to as "cataracts". I don't know if it's mold, >> but it basically results in the breakdown of the PVA bonding compound >> that holds the safety glass to the face of the tube. To remove it, at >> least on the TV tubes, you take the the tube out of the set, put it >> neck down in a large bucket/barrel so that it's supported, and use a >> heat gun to heat up the screen. After a while, the PVA will soften, >> and the faceplate can be gently separated from the tube. Don't pry it >> up - try to gently induce air bubbles under it with wooden shims and >> heat. Once the bond breaks over most of the tube, the glass should >> come off without breaking. Then you clean out all the PVA gunk, and >> reattach the safety glass with packing tape along the edges. This sounds like it might work. I just found an old TEC series 400 terminal that has a bad case of rot. I'll give the heat gun a try this weekend. I'll post what I find out. Here's a photo of the terminal's screen: http://www.dvq.com/tek/or/tec_440_front.jpg Thanks for the ideas, Bob From trag at io.com Thu Jul 17 10:46:09 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:46:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <200807171249.m6HCnYxa093551@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807171249.m6HCnYxa093551@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <11175.209.163.133.242.1216309569.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:25:51 -0500 > From: "joe lobocki" > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: >> >> > well, i just looked, and they have 1.44m drives only, so that wont work. > but, I have bought from shreve before in the past (although, over ebay) > and > found them to be reliable, but that was a while ago. thanks for the help > though > My bad. I was thinking of "autoinject" and not 800K vs. 1.44MB. However, unless you're a purist for collector's reasons, I think the 1.44 MB drive will work fine in the SE. It will read and write 800K and 400K disks just as well as an 800K disk drive. The only issue I can remember is that you might need a different floppy drive cable (red stripe vs. yellow stripe) or was that an auto-inject vs manual-inject cable issue? It's been so long since I've dealt with floppy replacement that that old knowledge isn't terribly accessible any more. But I do know that the 1.44 MB auto-inject drive is a good functional replacement for the 800KB auto-inject drive and the only reason not to do it is if you're trying to keep the machine pristinely original. Jeff Walther From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 17 10:46:45 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:46:45 -0700 Subject: TRS-Xenix 1.0 Development System disks? In-Reply-To: <487C699F.3060204@msu.edu> References: <487C699F.3060204@msu.edu> Message-ID: I might have them. I'll look around. Eric On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone have the development system disks for TRS-Xenix 1.0? I just recently > got my Model 16 running Xenix 1.03 and having a compiler (or any other > software, for that matter) would be nice. I've found images for Xenix 3.0's > development system, but my M16 lacks the proper modifications to run 3.0. > > Thanks, > Josh > From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jul 17 10:50:54 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:50:54 -0400 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on a TEC terminal References: <533512.40304.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <487F6728.2030607@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <18559.27230.791411.708108@frederic-us-nas.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Rosenbloom writes: Bob> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> middle. It's referred to as "cataracts". I don't know if it's >>> mold, but it basically results in the breakdown of the PVA >>> bonding compound that holds the safety glass to the face of the >>> tube. To remove it, at least on the TV tubes, you take the the >>> tube out of the set, put it neck down in a large bucket/barrel so >>> that it's supported, and use a heat gun to heat up the >>> screen. After a while, the PVA will soften, and the faceplate can >>> be gently separated from the tube. Don't pry it up - try to >>> gently induce air bubbles under it with wooden shims and >>> heat. Once the bond breaks over most of the tube, the glass >>> should come off without breaking. Then you clean out all the PVA >>> gunk, and reattach the safety glass with packing tape along the >>> edges. Bob> This sounds like it might work. I just found an old TEC series Bob> 400 terminal that has a bad case of rot. I'll give the heat gun Bob> a try this weekend. Be sure to wear good quality protective gear (full face shield plus safety glasses) in case the tube decides to blow up from thermal stress. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 10:54:40 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:54:40 -0700 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: References: <533512.40304.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90807170854sa9ef3ealb65ab62e38bbf75@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:26 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I have a HP 2647A terminal with a severe case of screen rot which I would > like to refurbish: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/HP2647A-1L.jpg > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Terminals/ > > Do you think this would be a candidate for the heat gun method, or acetone > around the edges of the shield as others have suggested? > There is also the nichrome wire method which has been used on HP 264x terminal CRTs: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-February/059554.html From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 11:32:26 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bushy Tree Wikia (fwd) Message-ID: See below. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: John Redant [mailto:john.redant(over at)gmail(do da dot)com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 6:37 PM Subject: Bushy Tree Wikia Hello! I am the author of a 1999 term paper for the University of Regina in Canada called the "Downfall and Contributions of the Xerox Star" which featured a now oft referenced and updated bushy tree diagram. I recently started a Wikia about the HCI using the said diagram as a reference. My mission for the Wikia is to create a collaborative online encyclopeadia about the evolution of the human computer interface, the people and developers involved, and the terms that are used. It's about two weeks old and a lot of what's on there is mostly stubs. Naturally, it's a lot for one person to tackle alone. I'm looking for collaborators, authors and editors to help hammer it into shape. I'm wondering if you yourself would be willing to have a peek, or if you can help point me in the right direction. If you are interested or if you are willing to pass the word along, the address is: http://bushytree.wikia.com . Thank you in advance! J Redant From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Jul 17 11:44:48 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:44:48 -0600 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <200807170513.m6H5D2Sj087724@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807170513.m6H5D2Sj087724@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <487F7700.7060401@rogerwilco.org> >> Actually, I wrote some 6502 asm to bit bang out the game port >> data, ttl rs232 ;-) . It isn't that hard. > Did that to move Infocom game sectors from an Apple II to a C-64. > It was a bit rough, but with both CPUs bit-banging away at 1200 > baud, it took a while. In the end, though, the operation was a success. Likewise, once did a similar thing to transfer a particularly interesting textual adventure game from an Apple II to an Atari 800. Cobbled together a three-wire cable between game ports on each machine and used a very simplistic transfer method: Used one conductor as a single-bit DATA line, another for RCVR-READY, the last for signal ground. We sent just one bit at a time, with the RCVR-READY basically ACKing each bit. Certainly wasn't an efficient way to send data, but there was no reason to finesse it any more, since it was a one-time setup. If I remember right, we figured that our 42KB transfer would take about 75 minutes. After a slightly extended lunch, the transfer was complete. I guess that works out to about 10 bytes per second! With a few more minutes to patch the 'TTY-IN' and 'TTY-OUT' entry points, we had a fully working app. If I remember correctly, we even figured out how to modify the game save functionality for the Atari, too. - Jared From jwb at paravolve.net Thu Jul 17 13:32:50 2008 From: jwb at paravolve.net (James W. Brinkerhoff) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:32:50 -0400 Subject: VAX equipment In-Reply-To: <20080716.133017.28700.2.jmmolloy@juno.com> References: <20080716.133017.28700.2.jmmolloy@juno.com> Message-ID: <51BABAB3-CF4D-42A6-A015-676E566128CD@paravolve.net> Jim, I might be interested in some/all of the stuff you have, could you describe it in more detail? I'm in NYC (Grew up in Bergen Country NJ myself..) Regards, -jwb On Jul 16, 2008, at 1:30 PM, James M Molloy wrote: > My company had a cash flow problem and had to close the office. We > thought we might come out of it and saved our system in my garage. > We did > not turn around and so I have a VAX with DecServers and a printer to > divest. I also included the VMS documents. Primarily I would be > happy to > work with someone to relieve me of the hardware. > > Jim Molloy > 221 Howe Ave. > Passaic NJ 07055 > 973 778 1286 > ____________________________________________________________ > Live the good life! Click now for great retirement planning > assistance! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mK7B4GB411CfVV5RqiVzgQCeOBfIAkLtlSpXefy0C9FmPoe/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 13:25:42 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:25:42 -0500 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: <533512.40304.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <533512.40304.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <487F8EA6.9070407@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I don't know about the terminal picture tubes, or how they're bonded, but I > do know that this problem also affects old color television picture tubes > as well. The old color tubes from the late 50's/60's will develop similar > rot all along the edges, sometimes all the way to the middle. It's referred > to as "cataracts". Interesting; I've seen that often on old car windshields - it always seems to be at the edges though and without "mould spots", whereas a terminal CRT seems just as likely to develop patches anywhere on its surface. I'm not sure if it's exactly the same breakdown process, or if the 'cataracts' one requires an air ingress element, whilst the 'mould spots' doesn't... > Note that on some color TV tubes (Zenith, IIRC), the bonding compound is > different and won't come off with a heat gun. Those tubes require > "persuasion", in the form of a car battery and nichrome wire. That's the method I used for the HP-250 - it still took a little effort (the PSU I had to hand was rather under-spec for the job) but went easily enough. cheers Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jul 17 13:45:31 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:45:31 +0100 Subject: UK101 In-Reply-To: <487F2F53.6080907@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <001c01c8e83d$4e71d070$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> John Honniball wrote: > http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101 FWIW: "The requested URL /~coredump/uk101 was not found on this server" Antonio From db at db.net Thu Jul 17 14:59:07 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:59:07 -0400 Subject: Apple I BASIC dump In-Reply-To: <20080717034450.GB20783@usap.gov> References: <20080716182236.5ACB956F05@mail.wordstock.com> <487E4BCB.9000606@arachelian.com> <20080716123726.O22357@shell.lmi.net> <487E5193.9050208@gmail.com> <20080716201826.GA22707@night.db.net> <20080717034450.GB20783@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080717195907.GB90166@night.db.net> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 03:44:50AM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 04:18:26PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > I've done that to do a file transfer before. > > > > Both ways. Barefoot. In the snow. Uphill both ways. etc. etc. > > > > Actually, I wrote some 6502 asm to bit bang out the game port > > data, ttl rs232 ;-). It isn't that hard. > > Did that to move Infocom game sectors from an Apple II to a C-64. > It was a bit rough, but with both CPUs bit-banging away at 1200 > baud, it took a while. In the end, though, the operation was a success. Yes, I did it to run Apple disks on my Apple ][ emulator (written in 68k asm) - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 17 16:04:49 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:04:49 -0800 Subject: UK101 References: <001c01c8e83d$4e71d070$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <487FB3F0.56EBCAF2@cs.ubc.ca> Antonio Carlini wrote: > > John Honniball wrote: > > > http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101 > > FWIW: "The requested URL /~coredump/uk101 was not found on this server" Missing suffix, try: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101.htm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 16 21:06:05 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 03:06:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at Jul 16, 8 11:20:58 am Message-ID: > > see, its not a matter of not going in or coming out, it does that fine, but > when i put the floppy in, it barely reads, and a second later spits it right Have you tried cleaning the heads with a cotton bud dipped in propan-2-ol? [It may sound obvious, but I once spent an afternoon chasing up and down the analogue board ina a Commodore 8250LP, only to find the reason for the low-amplitude read signal was dirty heads...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 16 21:25:16 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 03:25:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on a TEC terminal In-Reply-To: <18559.27230.791411.708108@frederic-us-nas.equallogic.com> from "Paul Koning" at Jul 17, 8 11:50:54 am Message-ID: > Be sure to wear good quality protective gear (full face shield plus > safety glasses) in case the tube decides to blow up from thermal > stress. As it says in my Whitechapel MG1 technical manual : 'All persons handling a CRT should be wearing the following items : a) Gauntlets to protect the hands b) A Class 1 British Standard BS2092 (impact resistant) face visor with headband, to protect the face and eyes c) Canvas apropn to protect those other preceious parts ' :-) -tony From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 16:05:23 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More computers needed for project ($$$) Message-ID: I'm working on a consulting project that is ballooning in terms of equipment needed. I am seeking the following computers: Toshiba T1600/40 Macintosh IIx IBM PS/2 Model 90 Any AST laptop that was brought to market prior to Fall of 1989 (must include original power brick) Atari STacy Cosmetic condition is not a concern, but functionality is: they must work. Please contact me at your earliest convenience if you have any of these computers you'd like to sell. Time is of the essence, so please contact me soon. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jul 17 19:30:28 2008 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:30:28 -0500 Subject: Eprom Programmer Bytek 135H References: <109B053A76164BF3BC1FB149B104C0E9@gateway> Message-ID: <002001c8e86d$7c73c3e0$0e406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Gheude" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:52 AM Subject: Eprom Programmer Bytek 135H > Hi there, > > I am sorry I do not know your name and I came across your message while > browsing and I am hoping you can help. I have dusted down my old > programmer > a Bytek 135H as I have a project I where I need to program an eprom. Have > not used it for some time now and have lost the manual and application > used > to drive it. There was a floppy I used to insert into my PC, however it > was > so long ago all is lost or misplaced it. > > I am trying to find out some details on the unit. Did you ever locate a > copy of the application floppy and manual for the unit you acquired? > > Regards, > Peter > > Fingers crossed. Mylor Australia. > Sorry, never found a manual or any help with it. That was 5 years ago that I put out the help request. From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 17 21:02:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:02:00 -0400 Subject: VCF East exhibit registration Message-ID: <017001c8e87a$45781190$f750f945@evan> http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/exhibit.php A few details (exact show schedule, lodging, etc.) are still being worked out. But exhibit registration is now open. Please start using it and let me know ASAP if you encounter any problems. From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jul 17 22:26:30 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:26:30 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: I thought I had posted this, perhaps not. Anyhow, I have what's purported to be the "First" computer on the internet, the one that joined the pieces together and I guess you could say "made" the internet, or conversely, the "last" node, as it were (depending how you count). It's also the system where E-Mail was first created. It's a Sun SLC workstation, owned by Einar Steffard. I have the original box (very slightly torn), and the workstation itself is in very good shape except one cosmetic crack, which I believe can be fixed very easily. I tried the smithsonian, and other computer museums, but basically was told they already had too many of this model, never mind the significance of this particular unit. it still runs, last I checked, and has all the original data still intact on it, such as it is. now, I find myself with a severe lack of space, and need to part with it. I would like a little bit of money for it, it wasn't a donation to me, and shipping maybe expensive. or I would be willing to trade it for a vaxstation 4000, or perhaps a 3100 or two. (I have a need for 2 working vaxen you see) so anyhow, that's how it is, this piece of history sitting in the corner of my office, collecting dust, and not doing much else. I'd like to see it get to a good home, and never scrapped, I think it's too important for that. so anyhow, anyone who wants this piece of history, drop me a note. and yes, I have pics (including the shipping labels from Einar to me) for what it's worth... Dan. _________________________________________________________________ If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 22:22:41 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: Unless "First" (in quotes) signifies its node name was "First", I don't know how it could be the first on the internet. Year of first internet node connectivity: 1969 Year Sun SLC Workstation was brought to market: 1990 There's a 21 year gap there. The first e-mail communications occured sometime in the 1970s. What are we missing here? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jul 17 22:38:49 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:38:49 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:26 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I thought I had posted this, perhaps not. > Anyhow, > > I have what's purported to be the "First" computer on the internet, > the one that joined the pieces together and I guess you could say "made" the internet, > or conversely, the "last" node, as it were (depending how you count). > > It's also the system where E-Mail was first created. > It's a Sun SLC workstation, owned by Einar Steffard. I don't understand how this could possibly have been first, second, third, fourth, or even 100,000th computer on the Internet? The SPARCstation SLC was released in 1990, long after the ARPAnet had gone away and TCP/IP had become well established as the protocol of the Internet. Email had been around for almost 15 years by that time, as well. Could you have misunderstood what it was used for? -Seth From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 22:42:34 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:42:34 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Unless "First" (in quotes) signifies its node name was "First", I don't > know how it could be the first on the internet. And I have a whole pile of NSFnet debris here. Oh, and some AUTODIN junk. But that does not count as a network, now, does it? -- Will From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 17 22:45:18 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:45:18 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <018201c8e888$b3ae73d0$f750f945@evan> Also ... Who is this man? Here's a bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einar_Stefferud -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:sellam at vintagetech.com] Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:23 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: "first" computer on the internet Unless "First" (in quotes) signifies its node name was "First", I don't know how it could be the first on the internet. Year of first internet node connectivity: 1969 Year Sun SLC Workstation was brought to market: 1990 There's a 21 year gap there. The first e-mail communications occured sometime in the 1970s. What are we missing here? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 22:44:55 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:44:55 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The first e-mail communications occured sometime in the 1970s. WHACK! You should know better - put quotes around *your* first, mister. -- Will From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 22:34:25 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) Message-ID: I've seen worse, as recently as a few days ago. A beige/brown color-schemed ADM 3a came in for recycling and it looked like the CRT face was ready to just fall apart. It was literally almost ten times worse than that in the subject eBay auction. > I'm unsure if we've ever come to the conclusion if this is just an > adhesion separation issue resulting in blotches resembling mold, or > actual mold causing the separation. (Have we had some sort of cause > for this problem?) We came to the conclusion that it was a delamination issue. If you can find it in the list archives, one of our intrepid list members did some experiment that pretty much conclusively proved it was delamination. These are now starting to be worth real bucks. I say they are worth getting in any condition at this point, especially if they can be rehabilitated. I think if someone can find an equivalent CRT in a common piece of gear, like maybe an Apple monochrome monitor, then that would be useful. I guess I could do that, if I make the time. $250 is way too high for this one. Drop the zero. But add $25-$50 for the original manual. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 22:42:49 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Jules sayeth: > I believe Sellam still has an offer open to analyse the decay if someone > can send him a sample - I'd already ditched the pile of rot from the > HP-250 by that point. Yes, I believe that opportunity is still available. But I don't think that's necessary. I think one could be analyzed adequately if it was removed, de-vaccumed, and a hole of 1cm is drilled through the face where the affliction is at its worst. Then blow the dust away and see what you got. If there's something biological there, isn't there a simple test you can apply (say "hello" to it and see if it responds)? If it's delamination, I think it will be apparent at the cross-section. The drilling would not be that trivial, but doable. If I get time I'll try this, just to put this to rest once and for all. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 22:50:10 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Donzo quoth: > WHACK! > > You should know better - put quotes around *your* first, mister. Silly, of course you know I meant on The Internet :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 22:53:20 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops, re-post with proper subject added. On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Jules sayeth: > > > I believe Sellam still has an offer open to analyse the decay if someone > > can send him a sample - I'd already ditched the pile of rot from the > > HP-250 by that point. > > Yes, I believe that opportunity is still available. But I don't think > that's necessary. I think one could be analyzed adequately if it was > removed, de-vaccumed, and a hole of 1cm is drilled through the face where > the affliction is at its worst. Then blow the dust away and see what you > got. > > If there's something biological there, isn't there a simple test you can > apply (say "hello" to it and see if it responds)? If it's delamination, I > think it will be apparent at the cross-section. > > The drilling would not be that trivial, but doable. > > If I get time I'll try this, just to put this to rest once and for all. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 17 22:54:48 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm suddenly rendered retarded. Proper subject added. Donzo quoth: > WHACK! > > You should know better - put quotes around *your* first, mister. Silly, of course you know I meant on The Internet :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ingrammp at earthlink.net Thu Jul 17 23:54:43 2008 From: ingrammp at earthlink.net (mike ingram) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:54:43 -0700 Subject: free SGI Octanes in Tucson Message-ID: All I have 6 SGI Octane computers available for free to anyone who can come by to pick them up. They have various sets of memory and graphics cards, and if you're interested and can pick up in Tucson, I can do a better inventory for you ahead of time. All were working as of last usage, but will be delivered without a hard drive ( but with the hard drive sled !! ) I also have three VS160 Quantum scsi DLT tape drives and two Quantum scsi autochangers that hold 8 VS160 tapes. Again, the machines and the tape drives are free, but I'am not able to ship ( but I could drop them off someplace locally, if you made arrangements for someone else to ship them... ) Mike Ingram From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 18 00:04:44 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:04:44 -0700 Subject: Another "first" available for sale (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4880246C.2040105@brouhaha.com> I've got the "first" sneaker ever used for sneakernet, back in 1988. I paid quite a bit of money for it due to the obvious historical interest, but I'm running out of storage space, so I'm willing to entertain offers. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 18 00:13:32 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another "first" available for sale (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <4880246C.2040105@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jul 17, 8 10:04:44 pm" Message-ID: <200807180513.m6I5DWPi021802@floodgap.com> > I've got the "first" sneaker ever used for sneakernet, back in 1988. I > paid quite a bit of money for it due to the obvious historical interest, > but I'm running out of storage space, so I'm willing to entertain offers. Does it smell bad? I want an authentic stench. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- To describe bitter medicine will not improve its flavor. -- Charlie Chan --- From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 01:25:51 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:25:51 -0500 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <9145.209.163.133.242.1216228768.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200807161700.m6GH0akd079777@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9145.209.163.133.242.1216228768.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: well, i just looked, and they have 1.44m drives only, so that wont work. but, I have bought from shreve before in the past (although, over ebay) and found them to be reliable, but that was a while ago. thanks for the help though On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:07:09 -0500 > > From: "joe lobocki" > > > > hello, > > anybody know where I can get an 800k drive for my mac SE? mine seems to > > have > > quit working. thanks > > -Joe > > Let's see.... > > > > Listed at $3 but they charge $7 shipping (last time I checked before fuel > prices increased so) per drive so the real price is $10 per drive shipped, > assuming the shipping hasn't changed. If your order is trouble free, > then Shreve is reliable. If there are problems with your order (e.g. > defective/missing items), they have a reputation for not being > particularly helpful. > > Jeff Walther > > > From vbriel at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 06:47:29 2008 From: vbriel at yahoo.com (Vince Briel) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 BASIC dump Message-ID: <792737.62845.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well, this is nice work but it was done 5 years ago, has been disassembled and currently is in the replica 1 kits EPROM. Achim Breidenbach wrote a program on his Amiga to read a .wav file of an original copy of BASIC and disassemble it. I would say, Achim deserves credit for being the first to read the tape and make a listing available. By the way, replica 1 users found an error in this "confirmed" version of BASIC. Using my Apple IIplus I was able to read Star Trek and Lunar Lander from .wav files of original tapes. Vince Briel Computers home of the replica 1 and Micro-KIM http://www.brielcomputers.com From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 12:34:54 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:34:54 -0500 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <11175.209.163.133.242.1216309569.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200807171249.m6HCnYxa093551@dewey.classiccmp.org> <11175.209.163.133.242.1216309569.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: jeff, you may be right, but my understanding was that a 1.44 drive wont function in a system with an 800k set of chips, and that it needs to be chipped or the logic board swapped. yes, I am a purist, but i think i might be able to slide on this one if it works. On 7/17/08, Jeff Walther wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:25:51 -0500 >> From: "joe lobocki" > >> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: > >>> >>> >> well, i just looked, and they have 1.44m drives only, so that wont work. >> but, I have bought from shreve before in the past (although, over ebay) >> and >> found them to be reliable, but that was a while ago. thanks for the help >> though >> > > My bad. I was thinking of "autoinject" and not 800K vs. 1.44MB. > However, unless you're a purist for collector's reasons, I think the 1.44 > MB drive will work fine in the SE. It will read and write 800K and 400K > disks just as well as an 800K disk drive. > > The only issue I can remember is that you might need a different floppy > drive cable (red stripe vs. yellow stripe) or was that an auto-inject vs > manual-inject cable issue? It's been so long since I've dealt with > floppy replacement that that old knowledge isn't terribly accessible any > more. > > But I do know that the 1.44 MB auto-inject drive is a good functional > replacement for the 800KB auto-inject drive and the only reason not to do > it is if you're trying to keep the machine pristinely original. > > Jeff Walther > > > From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Thu Jul 17 15:15:44 2008 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:15:44 -0400 Subject: Bernoulli/Syquest carts available In-Reply-To: <86.6710e60.2d72d185@aol.com> References: <86.6710e60.2d72d185@aol.com> Message-ID: <20080717201548.NZSO14962.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@gene-PC.tampabay.rr.com> At 01:24 AM 2/29/2004, you wrote: >I've more of these than anyone will need and they're all brand new. > >3 packs of Bernoulli 5.25 44meg disks >KAO 5.25 88meg syquest disks. The label inside says they are formatted for >Macs but includes software for wintel machines also. >$1 each plus whatever for shipping and they're yours. Just say how many you >want. Dave do you still have any of these left? Gene Ehrich From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 15:57:17 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:57:17 -0500 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yeah, i cleaned the heads, no help. im thinking the arm that holds the upper head is bent, and i took the drive out and tried booting while watching, the arm stays in one place (worm drive doesnt move at all) and it spits the disk out. On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > see, its not a matter of not going in or coming out, it does that fine, > but > > when i put the floppy in, it barely reads, and a second later spits it > right > > Have you tried cleaning the heads with a cotton bud dipped in propan-2-ol? > > [It may sound obvious, but I once spent an afternoon chasing up and down > the analogue board ina a Commodore 8250LP, only to find the reason for > the low-amplitude read signal was dirty heads...] > > -tony > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 18 00:37:48 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:37:48 -0400 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? References: Message-ID: <006501c8e898$6a2f0ac0$6601a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 4:57 PM Subject: Re: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? > yeah, i cleaned the heads, no help. im thinking the arm that holds the > upper > head is bent, and i took the drive out and tried booting while watching, > the > arm stays in one place (worm drive doesnt move at all) and it spits the > disk > out. > What about those little sensors in front that detect when a disk is in place, could they be damaged? From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Jul 18 05:48:26 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:48:26 +0100 Subject: UK101 In-Reply-To: <001c01c8e83d$4e71d070$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <001c01c8e83d$4e71d070$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <488074FA.10100@gifford.co.uk> Antonio Carlini wrote: > John Honniball wrote: > >>http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101 > > FWIW: "The requested URL /~coredump/uk101 was not found on this server" Oops! I left off the ".htm", should have been: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101.htm Thanks for spotting that, and sorry for the confusion! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jul 18 07:50:19 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:50:19 -0300 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? References: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com> Message-ID: <06cd01c8e8d4$e5c91310$160c010a@portajara> > It is small, isn't it? But it's very sharp, even on 80x24 text, so it's > easy to read if you sit about 6" away from the screen. Makes me want to > get > a Fresnel lens on a swing arm, a la Brazil :-) What my country has to do with fresnels and swing arms? ;oD From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 18 08:23:49 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:23:49 -0600 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on a TEC terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:37:12 -0700. <487F6728.2030607@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <487F6728.2030607 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: >>[heat gun approach] > > This sounds like it might work. I just found an old TEC series 400 > terminal that has a bad case of rot. I'll give the heat gun a try this > weekend. > I'll post what I find out. Here's a photo of the terminal's screen: > > http://www.dvq.com/tek/or/tec_440_front.jpg Wow Bob, that's a new one for me. What year is it from? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 18 09:38:28 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:38:28 -0500 Subject: Rescue FWD: USUS Software, Sage II in Sunnyvale, CA Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080718093736.05f0f270@mail.threedee.com> >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:45:43 -0700 >From: "Dennis R. Cohen" >Subject: USUS Software Library > > >Hi, > >A long time ago, I was pretty active in USUS and have a pretty complete >copy of the USUS Library. Your article implied interest. The bulk of the >set is on 8", but there is some on the 5.25" that I used with the Sage >II. > >I'm getting ready to move from the Silicon Valley to Spokane, WA, so if >you are interested, please contact me while I can still find them. I >also have an old Sage II with Televideo 925 terminal and an Apple /// if >your USUS Museum would be interested. I would be willing to donate them >if you have someone to come and get them. > >Dennis R. Cohen >Sunnyvale, CA From gil at baudot.net Fri Jul 18 10:32:33 2008 From: gil at baudot.net (gil smith) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:32:33 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <06cd01c8e8d4$e5c91310$160c010a@portajara> References: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com> <06cd01c8e8d4$e5c91310$160c010a@portajara> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080718083021.0263e928@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Think he means the Terry Gilliam movie -- great teletypes in that one too. "We're all in this together!" gil smith At 05:50 AM 7/18/2008, you wrote: >> It is small, isn't it? But it's very sharp, even on 80x24 text, so it's >>easy to read if you sit about 6" away from the screen. Makes me want to get >>a Fresnel lens on a swing arm, a la Brazil :-) > > What my country has to do with fresnels and swing arms? ;oD Vaux Electronics, Inc. 480-354-5556 (fax: 480-354-5558) www.vauxelectronics.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 18 10:45:11 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:45:11 -0400 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam Ismail wrote: > These are now starting to be worth real bucks. I say they are worth > getting in any condition at this point, especially if they can be > rehabilitated. I think if someone can find an equivalent CRT in a common > piece of gear, like maybe an Apple monochrome monitor, then that would be > useful. I guess I could do that, if I make the time. I though someone had identified a supplier of a suitable new replacement CRT in the earlier discussion, but I can't find it in my archives. Darn. I had intended to order one myself... I seem to remember that they were not expensive, something like $70-$80. The replacement process is not hard, I have swapped CRTs between ADM-3a's before. Bill From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 18 11:46:31 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:46:31 -0700 Subject: TEC terminals - was:Re: Extreme screen "rot" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4880C8E7.1070000@sbcglobal.net> Richard wrote: > Wow Bob, that's a new one for me. What year is it from? > The date on the manual is January 1973. One of the reasons I picked it up is it came with them manual and a set of schematics. It uses MOS shift registers for it's memory. The rest is mostly 74xx series TTL. I actually have three of these terminals. The other two are rack mount ones that I've had for awhile. They can be seen about 3/4 the way down on this page: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/misc.htm They display 24 lines of 80 or 72 characters and it appears to be upper case only. Bob From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jul 18 11:48:44 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080718164844.351D756ECF@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Sellam Ismail > > Oops, re-post with proper subject added. > > On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Jules sayeth: > > > > > I believe Sellam still has an offer open to analyse the decay if someone > > > can send him a sample - I'd already ditched the pile of rot from the > > > HP-250 by that point. > > > > Yes, I believe that opportunity is still available. But I don't think > > that's necessary. I think one could be analyzed adequately if it was > > removed, de-vaccumed, and a hole of 1cm is drilled through the face where > > the affliction is at its worst. Then blow the dust away and see what you > > got. > > > > If there's something biological there, isn't there a simple test you can > > apply (say "hello" to it and see if it responds)? If it's delamination, I > > think it will be apparent at the cross-section. > > > > The drilling would not be that trivial, but doable. > > Sellam, Please make sure your are wearing proper face and body protection. The last time you had a run-in with a monitor, the monitor won! I have seen the Powerpoint presentation detailing that event... ;) You do not want to have to remove bits of monitor from your self that have an unknown organism living on them... (although I am sure it could be turned into an interesting horror B-movie!) Cheers, Bryan > > If I get time I'll try this, just to put this to rest once and for all. > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 12:39:28 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:39:28 -0700 Subject: Extreme screen "rot" on an ADM-3a (an ebay auction) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90807181039x36c5491cp9d2088b0071af66e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > I though someone had identified a supplier of a suitable new replacement CRT > in the earlier discussion, but I can't find it in my archives. Darn. I had > intended > to order one myself... I seem to remember that they were not expensive, > something like $70-$80. The replacement process is not hard, I have swapped > CRTs between ADM-3a's before. > This 2005 thread mentions www.cathoderaytubes.com. Send them a quote request and post your results. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-February/059554.html From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jul 18 12:44:03 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:44:03 -0500 Subject: Rescue FWD: USUS Software, Sage II in Sunnyvale, CA In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080718093736.05f0f270@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080718093736.05f0f270@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4880D663.6040501@pacbell.net> John Foust wrote: >> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:45:43 -0700 >> From: "Dennis R. Cohen" >> Subject: USUS Software Library >> >> >> Hi, >> >> A long time ago, I was pretty active in USUS and have a pretty complete >> copy of the USUS Library. Your article implied interest. The bulk of the >> set is on 8", but there is some on the 5.25" that I used with the Sage >> II. >> >> I'm getting ready to move from the Silicon Valley to Spokane, WA, so if >> you are interested, please contact me while I can still find them. I >> also have an old Sage II with Televideo 925 terminal and an Apple /// if >> your USUS Museum would be interested. I would be willing to donate them >> if you have someone to come and get them. >> >> Dennis R. Cohen >> Sunnyvale, CA > > I replied via private email too, but I just pointed out that David Erhardt runs www.sageandstride.org. If this software gets to him, it is pretty much guaranteed to be preserved and shared, vs ending up on someone's trophy pile. From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jul 18 12:53:53 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:53 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no, I didn't misunderstand. perhaps it was the last one Einar had. But it was what he created Email on. Check the Wiki for him. The internet didn't become a really public thing until around 1994. Sure it existed in various forms, but when you talk about the "Internet" (Capital "I"), the public wasn't aware of it or using it until late 1994. To give you some idea, the ISP I worked with in Sept 1994 had an ARIN user registration number 79. Yes, the 79th person to register with ARIN. That's pretty damn EARLY! So enough with your stupid jokes and mockery, this isn't a scam or slight, it's the real thing, speaking from a public perspective anyhow. Hey I was there in the mid to late 80's using NA-Net, etc as well, but that WASN'T the internet. And hey, I was sending "email" via university systems back in the mid to late 70's too, but that's not what we call "email" today. there wasn't TCP then, at least where I was (It was Dec-net and PAX). BTW I helped WRITE TCP-mail, the predecessor to pine/elm, so I think I know a bit about what I'm talking about. And yes, I know there was other stuff too, in the 80s, networking like Envoy, but that too, wasn't the Internet. I think there are two aspects, the research network, NA-Net, Arpanet and so forth, and what we, the public now refer to as the Internet. Sure the worlds FIRST website was built 6 August 1991 but that's not when the public was aware of it. So you can see, the 1990 release of the SLC is very much in-line with this time-line. I was there, I lived through this, I helped the universities build their system for students so they could reserve research materials from the Canadian National Archives. The "properly" public internet didn't really come into full view, I would say until sometime around 1996, perhaps to some, 1995, but really. BTW I also built the FIRST, Canadian National backbone network link in March of 1994, and yes, really the first, in Canada. So been there, done that, got the t-shirt. That's why "first" was in quotes. I wasn't trying to skewer dates or make some big claim, but I still think it's an important piece of history. So go ahead, continue making your immature little jokes about sneakers, if someone is serious on the list, drop me a note. Dan. > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:38:49 -0700 > From: sethm at loomcom.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:26 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > I thought I had posted this, perhaps not. > > Anyhow, > > > > I have what's purported to be the "First" computer on the internet, > > the one that joined the pieces together and I guess you could say "made" the internet, > > or conversely, the "last" node, as it were (depending how you count). > > > > It's also the system where E-Mail was first created. > > It's a Sun SLC workstation, owned by Einar Steffard. > > I don't understand how this could possibly have been first, second, > third, fourth, or even 100,000th computer on the Internet? The > SPARCstation SLC was released in 1990, long after the ARPAnet had gone > away and TCP/IP had become well established as the protocol of the > Internet. Email had been around for almost 15 years by that time, as > well. Could you have misunderstood what it was used for? > > -Seth _________________________________________________________________ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jul 18 13:19:34 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:19:34 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: Message-ID: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Gahlinger writes: Dan> no, I didn't misunderstand. perhaps it was the last one Einar Dan> had. But it was what he created Email on. Check the Wiki for Dan> him. Dan> The internet didn't become a really public thing until around Dan> 1994. Sure it existed in various forms, but when you talk about Dan> the "Internet" (Capital "I"), the public wasn't aware of it or Dan> using it until late 1994. ... If you're going to use fuzzy metrics like "public awareness" you can prove anything you want. What's your threshold? 1% of the public? 0.001% of the public? Whose survey are you using? When did Mosaic come out? If you want to pick a point in time when the Internet changed from a specialist tool to a worldwide utility, that would be the one. I forgot the year, but I'm sure it's well before 1994. And I remember looking into an "Information Superhighway Onramp" as a product or service at that time, so clearly it was emerging as a consumer utility then. paul From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 18 13:32:27 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53412.65.126.154.6.1216405947.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Dan, you are grossly over-reacting. Yes, some people here made light of your email, but then don't join a list passionate computer geeks if you can't tolerate some criticism. Fact is, you brought this on yourself by writing things such as "where E-Mail was first created." E-mail, as YOU noted, is hardly limited to the Internet. It existed long before the mainstream, modern Internet was born. I would argue that the telegraph was the first electronic mail system. So then, why did you wrote "where E-Mail was first created," knowing full well that such as claim is wildly off-base? People are only attacking you because of the sweeping generalization that you made. If you were to say SPECIFICALLY what this guy created, with details, then that's great. But to come along say he "created" email for any network is pretty silly. It's like saying Henry Ford "created" the automobile or (more appropriate for this list) IBM "created" computers. Maybe that's acceptable for ordinary drivers or computer users, but don't try pulling it here. >>>>> I was there, I lived through this (blah blah blah ........) That's nice. Use your experience and knowledge to tell us something new and interesting about it. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:33:36 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:33:36 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The internet didn't become a really public thing until around 1994. > Sure it existed in various forms, but when you talk about the "Internet" (Capital "I"), the public wasn't aware of it or using it until late 1994. Wow, hair splitting EXTREME! If you count the creation of the _I_nternet as the point at which the academic networks went public in the early/mid 1990s, well that all this NSFnet junk in my shop would probably qualify. One clock pulse after the official ruling, then all these RS/6000s would then be contenders to be "first". Depending, of course, on which machine got their clock pulse first. But I think the _I_nternet was being referred to with the big _I_ well into the 1980s. -- Will, ex william at ans.net From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 18 13:34:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>>> When did Mosaic come out? If you want to pick a point in time when the Internet changed from a specialist tool to a worldwide utility, that would be the one. Mosaic made the WEB into a public tool, but remember, the web is just one application residing on the Internet. From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jul 18 13:47:53 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:47:53 -0500 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4880E559.8040401@pacbell.net> Dan Gahlinger wrote: ... > To give you some idea, the ISP I worked with in Sept 1994 had an ARIN user registration number 79. > Yes, the 79th person to register with ARIN. That's pretty damn EARLY! Wikipedia says: "ARIN opened its doors for business on 22 December 1997[1] after incorporating on 18 April 1997" > So enough with your stupid jokes and mockery, this isn't a scam or slight, > it's the real thing, speaking from a public perspective anyhow. I don't think anybody has accused you of a scam, just of making claims that are provably false. > Hey I was there in the mid to late 80's using NA-Net, etc as well, but that WASN'T the internet. > And hey, I was sending "email" via university systems back in the mid to late 70's too, but that's not what we call "email" today. > there wasn't TCP then, at least where I was (It was Dec-net and PAX). TCP has been around since at least 1981. > BTW I helped WRITE TCP-mail, the predecessor to pine/elm, so I think I know a bit about > what I'm talking about. You are talking about clients, not protocols. I have no doubt that people were writing new email clients in 1990 or whatever. The original message sounded like you were claiming the email protocol was developed on a machine that wasn't available until many years after the protocol had already been in use. From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jul 18 13:54:20 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:54:20 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4880E6DC.90006@mainecoon.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > To give you some idea, the ISP I worked with in Sept 1994 had an ARIN > user registration number 79. Yes, the 79th person to register with > ARIN. That's pretty damn EARLY! I think we call all accept that if one defines terms in a tortured enough way that you can make the semantics fit. The question is whether anyone else cares to embrace those tortured semantics. For those of us who had InterNIC handles in the '70s having an early ARIN number is a major yawn. > So enough with your stupid jokes and mockery, this isn't a scam or > slight, it's the real thing, speaking from a public perspective > anyhow. So it's a "real thing" only in the presence of ignorance? > Hey I was there in the mid to late 80's using NA-Net, etc as well, > but that WASN'T the internet. And hey, I was sending "email" via > university systems back in the mid to late 70's too, but that's not > what we call "email" today. there wasn't TCP then, at least where I > was (It was Dec-net and PAX). RFC793 is dated September 1981. RFC 821 is dated August 1982, well in advance of the machine in question. > BTW I helped WRITE TCP-mail, the predecessor to pine/elm, so I think > I know a bit about what I'm talking about. The lineage of a specific *client* defines email? Who wants to break the news to Mr. Allman? > And yes, I know there was other stuff too, in the 80s, networking > like Envoy, but that too, wasn't the Internet. Then what, prey, is the "Internet"? Certainly there's nothing about the networking stack or applications that were available in the Sun4 family that were not available in the Sun3 family that would been heralded as a major shift. > I think there are two aspects, the research network, NA-Net, Arpanet > and so forth, and what we, the public now refer to as the Internet. > Sure the worlds FIRST website was built 6 August 1991 but that's not > when the public was aware of it. Websites having what to do with the Internet, aside from some using the Internet as a transport mechanism? > So you can see, the 1990 release of the SLC is very much in-line with > this time-line. What is this? Proof by intimidation? > I was there, I lived through this, I helped the universities build > their system for students so they could reserve research materials > from the Canadian National Archives. If that's your basis for the claims you're asserting you really needed to get out more. > The "properly" public internet didn't really come into full view, I > would say until sometime around 1996, perhaps to some, 1995, but > really. There it is again, the hint of some unique definition of "the Internet" that is used as the basis of your argument. > That's why "first" was in quotes. I wasn't trying to skewer dates or > make some big claim, but I still think it's an important piece of > history. An opinion obviously not universally shared. > So go ahead, continue making your immature little jokes about > sneakers, if someone is serious on the list, drop me a note. *plonk* -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:56:14 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:56:14 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4880E74E.3080904@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> The internet didn't become a really public thing until around 1994. >> Sure it existed in various forms, but when you talk about the >> "Internet" (Capital "I"), the public wasn't aware of it or using it >> until late 1994. > > Wow, hair splitting EXTREME! > > If you count the creation of the _I_nternet as the point at which the > academic networks went public in the early/mid 1990s, well that all > this NSFnet junk in my shop would probably qualify. One clock pulse > after the official ruling, then all these RS/6000s would then be > contenders to be "first". Depending, of course, on which machine got > their clock pulse first. > > But I think the _I_nternet was being referred to with the big _I_ > well into the 1980s. It was certainly available to me, and I was using it, before 1990. Peace... Sridhar From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:57:26 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:57:26 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d3530220807181157w40fbdfdby700b586598d874a1@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > no, I didn't misunderstand. perhaps it was the last one Einar had. But it was what he created Email on. > Check the Wiki for him. > > The internet didn't become a really public thing until around 1994. > Sure it existed in various forms, but when you talk about the "Internet" (Capital "I"), the public wasn't aware of it or using it until late 1994. > > To give you some idea, the ISP I worked with in Sept 1994 had an ARIN user registration number 79. > Yes, the 79th person to register with ARIN. That's pretty damn EARLY! > > So enough with your stupid jokes and mockery, this isn't a scam or slight, it's the real thing, speaking from a public perspective anyhow. > > Hey I was there in the mid to late 80's using NA-Net, etc as well, but that WASN'T the internet. > And hey, I was sending "email" via university systems back in the mid to late 70's too, but that's not what we call "email" today. > there wasn't TCP then, at least where I was (It was Dec-net and PAX). > > BTW I helped WRITE TCP-mail, the predecessor to pine/elm, so I think I know a bit about what I'm talking about. > > And yes, I know there was other stuff too, in the 80s, networking like Envoy, but that too, wasn't the Internet. > > I think there are two aspects, the research network, NA-Net, Arpanet and so forth, and what we, the public now refer to as the Internet. > Sure the worlds FIRST website was built 6 August 1991 but that's not when the public was aware of it. > > So you can see, the 1990 release of the SLC is very much in-line with this time-line. > > I was there, I lived through this, I helped the universities build their system for students so they could reserve research materials from the Canadian National Archives. > > The "properly" public internet didn't really come into full view, I would say until sometime around 1996, perhaps to some, 1995, but really. > > BTW I also built the FIRST, Canadian National backbone network link in March of 1994, and yes, really the first, in Canada. > > So been there, done that, got the t-shirt. > > That's why "first" was in quotes. I wasn't trying to skewer dates or make some big claim, but I still think it's an important piece of history. > > So go ahead, continue making your immature little jokes about sneakers, if someone is serious on the list, drop me a note. > > Dan. > Is this thing going to turn into your "OS/2 for the PDP-11" debacle all over again? http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-January/253028.html I'd swear we were being trolled. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jul 18 13:58:00 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:58:00 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20080718083021.0263e928@mail.vauxelectronics.com> References: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com> <06cd01c8e8d4$e5c91310$160c010a@portajara> <6.1.2.0.2.20080718083021.0263e928@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Message-ID: <000b01c8e908$3635e110$a2a1a330$@com> > gil smith > Think he means the Terry Gilliam movie Indeed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(movie) and the movie is named for the theme song, not the country. Bob From db at db.net Fri Jul 18 13:59:27 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:59:27 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080718185927.GA34522@night.db.net> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 02:33:36PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > The internet didn't become a really public thing until around 1994. > > Sure it existed in various forms, but when you talk about the "Internet" (Capital "I"), the public wasn't aware of it or using it until late 1994. > > Wow, hair splitting EXTREME! > > If you count the creation of the _I_nternet as the point at which the > academic networks went public in the early/mid 1990s, well that all I remember having to sign a piece of paper so we could use the entire "_I_nternet". How things have changed. > -- > Will, ex william at ans.net > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 18 13:59:46 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:59:46 +0000 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <071820081859.25174.4880E822000E2AF10000625622218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > But I think the _I_nternet was being referred to with the big _I_ well > into the 1980s. It was. The distinction between Internet and internet was used by Comer in his classic TCP/IP book, the first edition of which is from 1988. How long that distinction had been in place, I don't know. That was also the year of the Morris worm. Public popularity (or lack thereof) doesn't change the fact that the worm transported itself across the Internet and exploited a debugging backdoor of sendmail, also establishing email as a very pre-90s thing. At the time the public was added to the Internet, none of us thought of it as a new or different network: just that it was now "perpetual September." BLS From db at db.net Fri Jul 18 14:01:36 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:01:36 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 02:34:00PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>>> When did Mosaic come out? If you want to pick a point in time when > the Internet changed from a specialist tool to a worldwide utility, > that would be the one. > > Mosaic made the WEB into a public tool, but remember, the web is just one > application residing on the Internet. gopher, veronica.... It's hugely funny or sad to see domain registrar's automatically prefixing domain names with 'www'. I have often joked to others that we could safely remove the destination port from tcp/ip packets, after all, it's always going to be port 80 right? We could save two bytes per packet. (Again, I was joking! apart from DNS and e-mail not working it would work fine right? ;-) ) -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 18 14:09:18 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:09:18 +0000 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <4880E559.8040401@pacbell.net> References: <4880E559.8040401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <071820081909.16588.4880EA5E000C0EAF000040CC22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > You are talking about clients, not protocols. [and other pointed discussions of email] Keep in mind that the email began* as an application of the ARPAnet file transfer protocol. Very soon after the first nodes were hooked up in '69/'70, people began using the file transfer capabilities to leave notes for each other. It didn't take long at all before someone said, "hey, lets put together an addressing and delivery mechanism" and you had email. Everything since, has just been refinement of protocols and particular implementations. The "first" of one of these warrants very little historical interest. *Here I'm talking about email between distinct computers at geographically separated locations. Leaving notes for each other on the same machine predates even that. BLS From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Jul 18 14:10:28 2008 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim @ work) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:10:28 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: Message-ID: <8A1232DA022647DF8D17D49ABADED74C@jimsystem> A co-worker sent me this link a little earlier today. Seems a decent history and just might be germane to this conversation. http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/07/internet200807?printable=true¤tPage=all Jim From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Jul 18 14:14:22 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:14:22 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <7d3530220807181157w40fbdfdby700b586598d874a1@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7d3530220807181157w40fbdfdby700b586598d874a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200807181914.m6IJEC7I027267@mail.itm-inst.com> At 02:57 PM 7/18/2008, John Floren wrote: >Is this thing going to turn into your "OS/2 for the PDP-11" debacle >all over again? >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-January/253028.html > >I'd swear we were being trolled. Naah. Do you think so? :-) -Rick From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 14:23:49 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:23:49 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <071820081859.25174.4880E822000E2AF10000625622218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <071820081859.25174.4880E822000E2AF10000625622218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: > At the time the public was added to the Internet, > none of us thought of it as a new or different network: > just that it was now "perpetual September." A term coined by one of the RCS/RI guys, no less... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 14:35:27 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:35:27 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <071820081909.16588.4880EA5E000C0EAF000040CC22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <4880E559.8040401@pacbell.net> <071820081909.16588.4880EA5E000C0EAF000040CC22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: > Keep in mind that the email began* as an application > of the ARPAnet file transfer protocol. Very soon > after the first nodes were hooked up in '69/'70, > people began using the file transfer capabilities > to leave notes for each other. It didn't take long > at all before someone said, "hey, lets put together > an addressing and delivery mechanism" and you had > email. Something the military had been doing for some years, already... -- Will From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 18 14:42:01 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:42:01 +0000 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <071820081859.25174.4880E822000E2AF10000625622218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <071820081942.27786.4880F2090002B00C00006C8A22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: "William Donzelli" > > At the time the public was added to the Internet, > > none of us thought of it as a new or different network: > > just that it was now "perpetual September." > > A term coined by one of the RCS/RI guys, no less... I never knew who came up with it, but it sure fits. The worst part is that when it was just the September phenomenon, most of them would eventually learn the community's netiquette. Now it seems pretty much a lost cause. BLS From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 14:45:26 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:45:26 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <4880E559.8040401@pacbell.net> <071820081909.16588.4880EA5E000C0EAF000040CC22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <4880F2D6.6030803@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Keep in mind that the email began* as an application >> of the ARPAnet file transfer protocol. Very soon >> after the first nodes were hooked up in '69/'70, >> people began using the file transfer capabilities >> to leave notes for each other. It didn't take long >> at all before someone said, "hey, lets put together >> an addressing and delivery mechanism" and you had >> email. > > Something the military had been doing for some years, already... And PROFS came out in 1981. I started using PROFS around 1987. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jul 18 14:56:51 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FS: PCjr stuff Message-ID: I have three PCjr units. One has four sidecars. One has one. The third has none. There are also four chiclet keyboards, four "regular" keyboards (one sealed new-in-box), a technical manual, and lots of keyboard overlays. Make me an offer. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jul 18 16:00:12 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:00:12 -0800 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4881045C.D01AFCFC@cs.ubc.ca> - My recollection is what had been called the ARPAnet became the "Internet" around 1982, certainly we were calling it the "Internet" by '84-85. The transition to the 5 .mil/.edu/.net/.gov/.com domains was in that time period as well. It was a "large", functioning, useful network by that time, not just an experimental/prototype system. - IIRC, the NSFnet funding/expansion/backbone were slightly later. - As one who was developing (X.400) multi-node store-and-forward email systems starting in 1982-3, and was involved in establishing such a Canada-wide and world-wide functioning email network by 1984-5, by which time "Internet" email was already very well-established, I won't bother making any further comment about email firsts. - The "@.." address format was also well-established by the early '80s. The machine Dan has may have been 'first' at something but without a further qualifier any claim of historic significance is pointless. Given the ~1990 date, I was guessing it might have something to do with the opening of the internet to the public: first machine to route to a public ISP?, first machine to provide SLIP access?, who knows...? I'm not familiar with the model of machine mentioned so even those random guesses may be well off. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 18 15:13:41 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080718123807.L78235@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > no, I didn't misunderstand. perhaps it was the last one Einar had. But > it was what he created Email on. Check the Wiki for him. > The internet didn't become a really public thing until around 1994. > . . . > So go ahead, continue making your immature little jokes about sneakers, > if someone is serious on the list, drop me a note. I'm serious. You are full of it. You are off by a full decade. By 1994, Netscape replaced Mosaic, Cantor & Siegel sent their "Green Card" SPAM, and damn near every Walmart shopper knew about the internet. Those are not the BIRTH of the internet, those are its pubescent antics. Check the dates for Usenet (1980), FTP (1985), Gopher(1991), even WWW (1993). Watch Hyperland for the point of view of what internet users in 1990 expected in the near future. E-mail was in use onf CTSS in 1965. My first use of e-mail was in 1969 (NASA). I didn't send e-mail from a home computer until 1979. (Source, Compuserve) There are plenty of email discussion groups similar to this one that are older than YOUR perception of the birth of the internet, albeit many have changed servers a few times. As to your having written predecessor to PINE, . . . PINE is easily traceable back to 1989. PINE is variously backronymed to Pine Is Not Elm and Pine Is Nearly Elm. ELM's first release was 1986. Sorry, but the fact that YOU and my grandmother weren't aware of the internet until 1995 does NOT mean that it didn't exist then. Grow up. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 15:15:03 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:15:03 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <4881045C.D01AFCFC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4881045C.D01AFCFC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > - IIRC, the NSFnet funding/expansion/backbone were slightly later. 1985, but things were not really together until 1986. The last part of the NSFnet went down a couple years ago, very quietly. By then it had changed hands a couple of times. > The machine Dan has may have been 'first' at something but without a further > qualifier any claim of historic significance is pointless. I think the failure of any of the museums to show any interest has something to say... -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 18 15:27:30 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4881045C.D01AFCFC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20080718132656.U78235@shell.lmi.net> When did Al Gore invent it? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 15:40:29 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:40:29 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080718132656.U78235@shell.lmi.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4881045C.D01AFCFC@cs.ubc.ca> <20080718132656.U78235@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > When did Al Gore invent it? OK, who DIDN'T see this joke coming? Sorry... -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 18 15:57:48 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4881045C.D01AFCFC@cs.ubc.ca> <20080718132656.U78235@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080718135602.Y78235@shell.lmi.net> > > When did Al Gore invent it? On Fri, 18 Jul 2008, William Donzelli wrote: > OK, who DIDN'T see this joke coming? > Sorry... It was inevitable. Sorry... From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 18 16:00:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:00:00 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: <200807182100.m6IL0HLr084622@keith.ezwind.net> No, no ... email is pipes. Didn't the Romans invent that? -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin Subj: Re: "first" computer on the internet Date: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:34 pm Size: 34 bytes To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" When did Al Gore invent it? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 18 16:22:43 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:22:43 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080718123807.L78235@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080718123807.L78235@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2008, at 4:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> no, I didn't misunderstand. perhaps it was the last one Einar had. >> But >> it was what he created Email on. Check the Wiki for him. >> The internet didn't become a really public thing until around 1994. >> . . . >> So go ahead, continue making your immature little jokes about >> sneakers, >> if someone is serious on the list, drop me a note. > > I'm serious. You are full of it. > You are off by a full decade. Yeah, I've got to agree with Fred here. Even my employer at that time was selling Internet access commercially to end users well before 1994. And several years before that, I was slurping down free software via the Internet and taking it home on 10MB Bernoulli cartridges. Good grief, 1994? Talk to someone who was actually *there* rather than guessing about it...many are right here on this list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 18 16:46:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:46:01 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: , <20080718123807.L78235@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4880ACA9.30819.13BA6D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jul 2008 at 17:22, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah, I've got to agree with Fred here. Even my employer at that > time was selling Internet access commercially to end users well > before 1994. And several years before that, I was slurping down free > software via the Internet and taking it home on 10MB Bernoulli > cartridges. Good grief, 1994? Talk to someone who was actually > *there* rather than guessing about it...many are right here on this > list. Heck, I've still got email on my PC that predates 1994. Of course, it was picked up using UUCP, but there ya go. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 17 22:16:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 04:16:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at Jul 17, 8 03:57:17 pm Message-ID: > > yeah, i cleaned the heads, no help. im thinking the arm that holds the upper > head is bent, and i took the drive out and tried booting while watching, the > arm stays in one place (worm drive doesnt move at all) and it spits the disk > out. Does the disk start spinning (does the motor rotor on the underside of the drive spin)? If you carefully move the heads towards the spindle with the machine turned off (you can tilt the head assembly to free it from the leadscrew), do they go back to cylinder 0 when you turn the machine on and/or insert a disk (I am not sure when an Apple would do this)? -tony From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jul 18 17:08:21 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:08:21 -0500 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <4880ACA9.30819.13BA6D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20080718123807.L78235@shell.lmi.net>, <4880ACA9.30819.13BA6D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48811455.6090607@jbrain.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Heck, I've still got email on my PC that predates 1994. Of course, > it was picked up using UUCP, but there ya go. > Being on an NSFNet hub (UIUC), we called it the Internet as soon as we started. I don't have anything archived from < 91, but here is a 1992, non UUCP message: Received: from a.cs.uiuc.edu by uxa.cso.uiuc.edu with SMTP id AA01950 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 12 Feb 1992 10: >>> 24:48 -0600 Received: from relay.tek.com by a.cs.uiuc.edu with SMTP id AA29216 (5.64+/IDA-1.3.4 for jlb31348 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu); Wed, 12 Feb 92 10:25:0 >>> 1 -0600 Received: by relay.tek.com id ; Wed, 12 Feb 92 07: >>> 33:32 -0800 Received: from tekgen.bv.tek.com by tektronix.TEK.COM (4.1/7.1) id AA29834; Wed, 12 Feb 92 07:34:31 PST Received: from aice.BV.TEK.COM by tekgen.bv.tek.com (4.1/7.1) id AA11368; Wed, 12 Feb 92 07:33:28 PST Received: by aice.BV.TEK.COM (5.17/6.24) id AA27454; Wed, 12 Feb 92 07:35:49 PST From: stephenc at aice.bv.tek.com (Stephen Coan) Message-Id: <9202121535.AA27454 at aice.BV.TEK.COM> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 92 07:35:47 PST To: brain at cs.uiuc.edu Fcc: inbox Subject: Re: PET info to give and IEEE info wanted Lines: 21 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 18 17:11:11 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080718150535.L78235@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It's also the system where E-Mail was first created. > It's a Sun SLC workstation, owned by Einar Steffard. There doesn't seem to be ANY mentions anywhere of an Einar Steffard. Can we assume that you are talking about Einar Stefferud? (He did do some important work, but didn't "create E-Mail". (I wrote a program named EMAIL.COM; does that mean that _I_ created EMAIL?)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com (computers since mid-1960's; no significant contribution until 1984) From trag at io.com Fri Jul 18 17:22:51 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:22:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <200807181700.m6IH0dDQ020885@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807181700.m6IH0dDQ020885@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5458.209.163.133.242.1216419771.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:34:54 -0500 > From: "joe lobocki" > On 7/17/08, Jeff Walther wrote: >> My bad. I was thinking of "autoinject" and not 800K vs. 1.44MB. >> However, unless you're a purist for collector's reasons, I think the >> 1.44 >> MB drive will work fine in the SE. It will read and write 800K and 400K >> disks just as well as an 800K disk drive. > jeff, you may be right, but my understanding was that a 1.44 drive > wont function in a system with an 800k set of chips, and that it needs > to be chipped or the logic board swapped. yes, I am a purist, but i > think i might be able to slide on this one if it works. First, please do not top post, and please do edit away irrelevant quoted text. Second, the 1.44 MB drive will not function as a 1.44 MB drive in a system with 800K chips. However, it will function just fine as an 800K drive. There is no chipping or logic board swapping needed to use the 1.44 MB floppy drive as an 800K drive. The only possible issue is the floppy drive cable, as I wrote earlier, but the difference (IIRC) was only one line which would be easy enough to change. Still, I'm pretty certain that the floppy cable issue was one of auto-inject vs. manual-inject drives, not 800K vs. 1.44MB drives, because I remember installing an auto-inject drive in a machine normally equipped with manual-inject drives, once, and the drive began continuously ejecting. That's caused by a difference in the cable, but is completely irrelevant (IIRC) to your situation. Jeff Walther From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jul 18 17:25:46 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <5458.209.163.133.242.1216419771.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200807181700.m6IH0dDQ020885@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5458.209.163.133.242.1216419771.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008, Jeff Walther wrote: > Still, I'm pretty certain that the floppy cable issue was one of > auto-inject vs. manual-inject drives, not 800K vs. 1.44MB drives, because > I remember installing an auto-inject drive in a machine normally equipped > with manual-inject drives, once, and the drive began continuously > ejecting. That's caused by a difference in the cable, but is completely > irrelevant (IIRC) to your situation. Based on the Catweasel documentation, the difference in the cable is if a certain line is cut or not. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 18 17:31:00 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <7d3530220807181157w40fbdfdby700b586598d874a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220807181157w40fbdfdby700b586598d874a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080718151940.V78235@shell.lmi.net> > > And hey, I was sending "email" via university systems back in the mid > > to late 70's too, but that's not what we call "email" today. It wasn't? We called in email in the 1980s What difference do YOU consider important? Spam? (howzbout DEC product announcement? (5/2/1978 according to Stefferud); it and the responses sure looked like email to me) "ransom-note" abuse of fonts? dancing kangaroos? Microsoft Outhouse? > > there wasn't TCP then, at least where I was (It was Dec-net and PAX). Is THAT how you are defining email? (What were the dates for TCP/IP?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 17:31:02 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:31:02 -0400 Subject: RS Wall Wart Message-ID: Anyone have specs (voltage, polarity, etc.) for the Radio Shack 270-1551 power pack? I want to test out an old tabletop computer game, and do not want to invest in six C cells. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 18 17:35:51 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:35:51 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48811AC7.40803@brouhaha.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > no, I didn't misunderstand. perhaps it was the last one Einar had. But it was what he created Email on. > Check the Wiki for him. You've been sold a bill of goods. Einar didn't "create email", and certainly not on a Sun workstation. Internet email was created in 1971 by Ray Tomlinson: http://openmap.bbn.com/~tomlinso/ray/firstemailframe.html Sum Microsystems wasn't even *founded* until 1982, so there's no way that a Sun product was involved in the original creation of email. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 18 17:40:51 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:40:51 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080718123807.L78235@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080718123807.L78235@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48811BF3.5090602@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Check the dates for Usenet (1980), FTP (1985), Gopher(1991), even WWW > (1993). And not to disagree at all, but the 1985 for FTP is just the date for *modern* FTP. An earlier incarnation of internet FTP existed in the early 1970s. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Jul 18 17:43:59 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:43:59 -0700 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > If you carefully move the heads towards the spindle with the machine > turned off (you can tilt the head assembly to free it from the > leadscrew), do they go back to cylinder 0 when you turn the machine on > and/or insert a disk (I am not sure when an Apple would do this)? If I can make any judgments based upon the speed of a typical 800k Mac drive and noise coming from it, I think they go back to cylinder zero between each sector read. (It's a joke, but the noise of a Mac drive IS pretty distinctive.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 18 18:00:54 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807181914.m6IJEC7I027267@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <7d3530220807181157w40fbdfdby700b586598d874a1@mail.gmail.com> <200807181914.m6IJEC7I027267@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <20080718160001.K78235@shell.lmi.net> > Is this thing going to turn into your "OS/2 for the PDP-11" debacle > all over again? > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-January/253028.html Who has a copy of the OS/2 for Sun SLC workstation? From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 18 18:13:19 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:13:19 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48811AC7.40803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <010601c8e92b$df2ccd60$f750f945@evan> >> You've been sold a bill of goods. Einar didn't "create email", and certainly not on a Sun workstation. Maybe what he actually said was, "This was the computer I which I created email," as in, "This is the computer on which I happened the SEND my emails".... Maybe someone just took his use of "created" a bit too literally.... Think about it.... By clicking "new" and then typing and clicking "send", I just created (an) email. :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 18 18:27:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:27:33 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807182100.m6IL0HLr084622@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200807182100.m6IL0HLr084622@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4880C475.31747.1989908@cclist.sydex.com> I think everyone's missing the point here. We're talking about the "Internet" wherein any sort of garbage distributed widely enough is treated as honest truth. As in "Let me tell you how I get 100 mpg on my Ford Expedition using a mason jar full of water connected to my alternator..." Sorry for the OT, but let's just let this thread die. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 18 18:29:23 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:29:23 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <010601c8e92b$df2ccd60$f750f945@evan> References: <010601c8e92b$df2ccd60$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <48812753.2050203@brouhaha.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Think about it.... By clicking "new" and then typing and > clicking "send", I just created (an) email. :) Woo-hoo! I just sent an internet! This "series of tubes" think is great! From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 18 19:25:47 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:25:47 -0400 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend Message-ID: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> Hi all, This weekend is the seventh "Hackers On Planet Earth" conference, once again at the Hotel Pennsylvania, in New York City. Tomorrow my user group, MARCH, will have a hacker-themed vintage computer exhibit there from about 10am - late. Come visit us! - Evan From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 18 20:39:40 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:39:40 -0500 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> Evan Koblentz wrote: > This weekend is the seventh "Hackers On Planet Earth" conference, once again It is not merely the 7th, but the last. So if you ever wanted to go, this is the one. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From feedle at feedle.net Fri Jul 18 20:41:36 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:41:36 -0700 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2008, at 3:31 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Anyone have specs (voltage, polarity, etc.) for the Radio Shack > 270-1551 power pack? I want to test out an old tabletop computer game, > and do not want to invest in six C cells. Could you give more information? RadioShack has made at least three different products with that catalog number. The current 270-1551 is a 12VDC cigarette lighter plug with a pass- through on the back for plugging in another cigarette lighter jack. It uses an Adaptaplug, so polarity can be changed. Almost without exception, RadioShack always printed the voltage and amperage on every wall-wart they sold. Are batteries that expensive? Seems to me you should be able to pick up some cheap drug-store C cells for under $10. Lastly, it seems like it is almost a requirement that anybody who is interested in collecting classic hardware invest in a good laboratory power supply with variable current-regulated output. 6 C batteries = 9 VDC. I'd set my lab supply to 8.9V, clip alligator clips to the battery terminals, and play away. Similarly, somebody who hasn't invested in (at minimum) a dollar-store voltmeter? A Wal-Mart $5 special VOM (from the automotive department) would tell you the voltage and polarity. From feedle at feedle.net Fri Jul 18 20:45:09 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:45:09 -0700 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> This weekend is the seventh "Hackers On Planet Earth" conference, >> once again > > It is not merely the 7th, but the last. So if you ever wanted to > go, this is the one. Well, not necessarily the "last." 2600 management is well-known for saying things like this (the first HOPE was supposed to be the ONLY HOPE) to try to boost attendance. It will certainly be the last at the Hotel Pennsylvania, a place that has some meaning to telephony history. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 18 21:02:25 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> This weekend is the seventh "Hackers On Planet Earth" conference, once >> again > > It is not merely the 7th, but the last. So if you ever wanted to go, this is > the one. > Why is it the last one? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From tonym at compusource.net Fri Jul 18 21:05:24 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:05:24 GMT Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: <20080718220503.SM04988@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Evan Koblentz evan at snarc.net >Sent 7/17/2008 11:45:18 PM >To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: RE: "first" computer on the internet > >Also ... Who is this man? Here's a bio: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einar_Stefferud > > That Wikipedia page is like a year old, and I can't really find much info on that person. Besides the fact the Wikipedia is about as trustable as a lion in a butcher shop, where everything you type becomes "fact." I worked at Citrix Systems back in 1994 until 1995, and we ALREADY had system on the Internet, or internet, when I started there early 1994, and already had CITRIX.COM, and used it for email back then. We used the Microsoft Gateway for MS Mail. I also remember registering ASPID.COM with Ann Westine @ ISI back in about 1991 or so, and there were ISP's cropping up already, with UUNet being the leader (at the time) - I happened to be going through the University of Miami (FL) using mthvax.cs.miami.edu, first using UUCP, and later SLIP/PPP. I mean - wasn't AOL and CompuServe accessing the internet by then? I think the email address had to have :INTERNET> prefixing it, or something similar? A Sun SLC? in 1994? Don't think so - way too late to the party - we were already drunk! T From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 21:15:48 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:15:48 -0400 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Could you give more information? RadioShack has made at least three > different products with that catalog number. That is all I have. Just a sticker, basically saying to use the 270-1551. > Are batteries that expensive? Seems to me you should be able to pick up > some cheap drug-store C cells for under $10. I do not want to invest ten bucks into something that is probably worth ten bucks. I do not have anything else that uses C cells. > Lastly, it seems like it is almost a requirement that anybody who is > interested in collecting classic hardware invest in a good laboratory power > supply with variable current-regulated output. 6 C batteries = 9 VDC. Yes, I do indeed have power supplies of all flavors. > set my lab supply to 8.9V, clip alligator clips to the battery terminals, > and play away. They are a bit hard to get to, and I would rather not break open the case. I would rather just use my crappy universal wall wart thing, if I knew the settings. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 18 21:49:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:49:44 -0700 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4880F3D8.106.251AE3F@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jul 2008 at 22:15, William Donzelli wrote: > That is all I have. Just a sticker, basically saying to use the 270-1551. Well, it's a good thing that they invented the "Internet" last year. According to this site, the 270-1551 is a 12VDC 3A auto cigar lighter plug-in gizmo: http://www.markdownalley.com/ShowItem.cfm?itemid=1458&catid=113 Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 18 22:00:10 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:00:10 -0700 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4880F64A.226.25B3DA2@cclist.sydex.com> Here's a page that shows the doodad from the Jordanian Radio Shack franchise: http://www.radioshackjordan.com/ProductCatalogue_ProductDetails.aspx?P roductID=21101&SelectedCategoryID=808&Child=10&ProductName=12VDC%20ADP T%20W/EXTN 12V output. Cheers, Chuck From eric940 at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 22:07:00 2008 From: eric940 at gmail.com (Eric) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:07:00 -0700 Subject: The Day the Infant Internet Uttered its First Words Message-ID: As a tangent to the "first" computer on the internet, I reference this interesting link, showing the IMP log, along with the date and time of the "birth" of said [I][i]nternet. See: http://www.lk.cs.ucla.edu/first_words.html -eric From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Jul 18 23:26:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 04:26:10 +0000 Subject: The Day the Infant Internet Uttered its First Words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 08:07:00PM -0700, Eric wrote: > As a tangent to the "first" computer on the internet, I reference this > interesting link, showing the IMP log, along with the date and time of > the "birth" of said [I][i]nternet. > > See: > > http://www.lk.cs.ucla.edu/first_words.html I'd heard the story before that the first traffic was "lo" (since something crashed in the middle of "login")... good to see some hardcopy backing that up. Thanks for sharing that. Thinking back to the early days of the 'net, does anyone happen to have an electronic copy of the article describing the construction of the "BBN 1822" async interface that was used to connect PDP-11s to an IMP? Here's a link to the abstract of the original article: Essentially, it's a high-speed parallel-async interface - parallel from the PDP-11 (using an available-at-the-time DRV11C or DR11C), serial to the IMP. From what I know about mid-1970s PDP-11 peripherals, I expect that DEC's serial cards weren't up to the task for some reason - probably too slow or lacked some essential handshake that the IMP depended on, or it could just be that the BBN 1822 interface handled 16-bit-to-8-bit conversion in hardware to let the CPU worry about message headers and content. Looking at the original article would probably reveal some design element that could shed light on why it was specifically necessary to throw external hardware at the problem. The original document is known as "BBN 1822" or "STD 39", but according to RFC 3109, the document in which "STD 39" was deprecated from a standard to "historical", STD 39 was never republished as an RFC itself (thus is not part of the various collections of RFCs). I'm more interested in schematics of the PDP-11 IMP interface than pages of IMP protocol descriptions. Anyone have even that part of BBN 1822 around? Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Jul-2008 at 04:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -68.1 F (-55.6 C) Windchill -103.4 F (-75.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.6 kts Grid 14 Barometer 681.4 mb (10575 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 18 23:42:57 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:42:57 -0500 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080718220503.SM04988@[63.69.23.239]> References: <20080718220503.SM04988@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <488170D1.4030504@oldskool.org> tonym wrote: > Besides the fact the Wikipedia is about as trustable as a lion in a butcher shop, where everything you type becomes "fact." Especially since most of that page was created by the person it describes (see the History of the article). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From feedle at feedle.net Sat Jul 19 01:25:10 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:25:10 -0700 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2008, at 7:15 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Could you give more information? RadioShack has made at least three >> different products with that catalog number. > > That is all I have. Just a sticker, basically saying to use the > 270-1551. Okay, but.. like, does it plug into the wall? A cigarette lighter? Does it take the modern "Adaptaplugs" (the ones with two pins on them), the older friction-fit barrel style, or is it one of those "four plugs on the end of a wire, with a 9V clip" dealies? Again, usage of basic tools that anybody who is even remotely serious about collecting this stuff (a $5 voltmeter) would likely answer your question for you. > I do not want to invest ten bucks into something that is probably > worth ten bucks. I do not have anything else that uses C cells. Wow, what kind of gadget geek are you? I've got old freebie flashlights from Radio Shack that date back to the Reagan Administration that use C cells. And I'm not by far the oldest guy out here on the list. Also, you do know that in a pinch AA batteries and some duct tape make wonderful C cells. AAs are the same length and voltage: rolling them up with duct tape to make them thick enough to not rattle around works wonders in a pinch. Note that you'll drain them in a hurry, however. As a side note, many NiCd "C" and "D" cells (and more than one NiMH I've seen) are just AA batteries in bigger shells. One of the battery makers even sells a kit that includes the sleeves to turn rechargeable AAs into Cs and Ds. > Yes, I do indeed have power supplies of all flavors. Supply. One. See my notes below: a junk drawer full of wall-warts is a poor substitute for a real laboratory power supply. > They are a bit hard to get to, and I would rather not break open the > case. I would rather just use my crappy universal wall wart thing, if > I knew the settings. Hang on a second, I want to make sure I understand your request, because in your haste to handwave my help you may have answered your own question. You have a device that takes 6 C batteries, which is of low enough value to you that you won't spend a pittance to purchase the proper batteries for. You have a power supply of unknown origin, that you think is a Radio Shack #270-1551. Is that the power supply you received with the unit and it does not work? Or, is that the power supply you have, and you want to know if it will work? I'm going to out on a limb here and assume that you are trying to use a variable power supply wall-wart with one of those little slider switches on it to do different voltages (is that the Radio Shack # 270-1551?). In this scenario, there's a 50/50 chance that the device requires the same voltage from the wall-wart that it would get from the batteries. I refer you to my previous answer. A "safe" answer would be to start at 3V, and step it up until you find the minimum voltage that would operate the device consistently. The polarity is a big question: you could do one of three things to determine that. 1: use a meter to attempt to find which side of the power plug on the back is tied to the negative battery terminal, 2: open the device and see which side is the likely "ground", and therefore, the negative, or 3: just plug it in, and pray to the gods that the polarity protection diode is still good enough to keep the unit from going "poof!" and flip it if it doesn't work. All this, of course, assumes that the original device doesn't have an AC requirement, or had "connector conspiracy" to require you to purchase a replacement factory supply. You still have a BIG potential problem. Just about all the wall-warts I've ever seen with the little slider switches from 1.5-12VDC on the front are 150mA supplies, at least up until a few years ago. Just about any "pong" machine (or similar device) would probably not function properly with only 150mA. Worse, most cheap supplies of this type will sag as the load exceeds the rated maximum: so while it might indeed be 9VDC at 100mA, at 175mA of load it can drop to 7.5V or lower. If you have any serious interest in classic hardware, you _MUST_ invest in a lab supply. You can mail order one for well under $100 (I use a Velleman one that cost me $50 at Fry's Electronics in Portland, Oregon), and if you live in a "major city" you should be able to find a surplus house with one for peanuts. If you fancy yourself handy, or want to learn soldering skills, Velleman makes a 1A kit power supply that is more than adequate for a lot of this kind of stuff AND has the bonus of being real easy and fun to build. It is $12.95 from Ramsey Electronics (www.ramsey.com). A proper lab supply will allow you to give anything you find the RIGHT power, cleanly, and with overcurrent protection that could save the device from frying. I think you might be laboring under a "false economy" here. You don't want to spend money on dry cells, but you are unwilling to "break the plastic" (which might not even be required anyway, there's more than one way to skin that cat)? Either the unit has value, in which case it is worth doing right.. or it doesn't, and who gives a load of dingo's kidneys if you snap the plastic to get at the terminals! What's the deal? From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Jul 19 01:18:43 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: Brian L. Stuart said: > The "first" of one of these warrants very little historical interest. I disagree with just this part. It is of interest, but your point is taken. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Jul 19 01:36:02 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: I'd pile on here but the point has been well made by far. Sheesh. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 09:40:19 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:40:19 -0500 Subject: free SGI Octanes in Tucson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: id pay shipping on one.. On 7/17/08, mike ingram wrote: > All > > I have 6 SGI Octane computers available for free to anyone who can > come by to pick them up. They have various sets of memory and > graphics cards, and if you're interested and can pick up in Tucson, > I can do a better inventory for you ahead of time. All were > working as of last usage, but will be delivered without a hard drive > ( but with the hard drive sled !! ) > > > I also have three VS160 Quantum scsi DLT tape drives and two Quantum > scsi autochangers that hold 8 VS160 tapes. > > > Again, the machines and the tape drives are free, but I'am not able > to ship ( but I could drop them off someplace locally, if you made > arrangements for someone else to ship them... ) > > Mike Ingram > > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jul 18 23:36:13 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> Message-ID: <200807190441.AAA05732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have often joked to others that we could safely remove the > destination port from tcp/ip packets, after all, it's always going to > be port 80 right? Heh. And, of course, all port 80 traffic is HTTP, right? I'm typing this over an ssh session run over IP tunneled through port-53 UDP. The place I'm staying has wireless "Internet". But turns out they severely cripple it unless you pay - but their crippling lets port 53 through, apparently without checking that the traffic is actually DNS traffic. So I'm just tunneling on port 53. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 02:46:22 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:46:22 -0700 Subject: free SGI Octanes in Tucson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As would I... is there a possibility you would consider shipping them? Mark On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 7:40 AM, joe lobocki wrote: > id pay shipping on one.. > > On 7/17/08, mike ingram wrote: > > All > > > > I have 6 SGI Octane computers available for free to anyone who can > > come by to pick them up. They have various sets of memory and > > graphics cards, and if you're interested and can pick up in Tucson, > > I can do a better inventory for you ahead of time. All were > > working as of last usage, but will be delivered without a hard drive > > ( but with the hard drive sled !! ) > > > > > > I also have three VS160 Quantum scsi DLT tape drives and two Quantum > > scsi autochangers that hold 8 VS160 tapes. > > > > > > Again, the machines and the tape drives are free, but I'am not able > > to ship ( but I could drop them off someplace locally, if you made > > arrangements for someone else to ship them... ) > > > > Mike Ingram > > > > > > > > > From db at db.net Sat Jul 19 06:30:38 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:30:38 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807190441.AAA05732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <200807190441.AAA05732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20080719113038.GA83988@night.db.net> On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:36:13AM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > I have often joked to others that we could safely remove the > > destination port from tcp/ip packets, after all, it's always going to > > be port 80 right? > > Heh. And, of course, all port 80 traffic is HTTP, right? Of course! ... > actually DNS traffic. So I'm just tunneling on port 53. Yepp. I've heard of people doing that. You cheapskate you. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From evan at snarc.net Sat Jul 19 06:36:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 7:36:00 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: <200807191136.m6JBaqUM049888@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Yepp. I've heard of people doing that. You cheapskate you. Have you ever MET sellam? :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 07:50:33 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:50:33 -0400 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Okay, but.. like, does it plug into the wall? A cigarette lighter? Does it > take the modern "Adaptaplugs" (the ones with two pins on them), the older > friction-fit barrel style, or is it one of those "four plugs on the end of a > wire, with a 9V clip" dealies? I do not have the power unit at all. Just the game. The sticker on the games tells me to use the 270-1551. > Supply. One. See my notes below: a junk drawer full of wall-warts is a > poor substitute for a real laboratory power supply. Supplies - I have plenty of them. Probably more than most people on this list. HP, Manson, Fluke, Lambda, and even Hipotronics, if I want some real excitement from this game. I would use one of these (an appropriate one), but clipping to the battery terminals would be a chore, due to the design of the game. > You have a device that takes 6 C batteries, which is of low enough value to > you that you won't spend a pittance to purchase the proper batteries for. > You have a power supply of unknown origin, that you think is a Radio Shack > #270-1551. Is that the power supply you received with the unit and it does > not work? Or, is that the power supply you have, and you want to know if it > will work? I do not have the power unit. > I'm going to out on a limb here and assume that you are trying to use a > variable power supply wall-wart with one of those little slider switches on > it to do different voltages (is that the Radio Shack # 270-1551?). I plan on using one of those, for convenience. They have served me well in the past. > All this, of course, assumes that the > original device doesn't have an AC requirement, or had "connector > conspiracy" to require you to purchase a replacement factory supply. See, this is the problem. I do not know what this game wants. > I think you might be laboring under a "false economy" here. You don't want > to spend money on dry cells, but you are unwilling to "break the plastic" > (which might not even be required anyway, there's more than one way to skin > that cat)? Either the unit has value, in which case it is worth doing > right.. or it doesn't, and who gives a load of dingo's kidneys if you snap > the plastic to get at the terminals! What's the deal? I am going to throw this on the pile to sell. It is likely only worth ten bucks, so spending any real money on it is not a good business plan. -- Will From feedle at feedle.net Sat Jul 19 09:09:47 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:09:47 -0700 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > Why is it the last one? Ostensibly, this is the last one because the Hotel Pennsylvania is being converted into a residential property, and the lack of suitable venues in New York City makes relocation difficult. If only there was a similar convention in another city with lots of convention space... oh, wait. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jul 19 09:44:53 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:44:53 -0700 Subject: Rescue FWD: USUS Software, Sage II in Sunnyvale, CA In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080718093736.05f0f270@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080718093736.05f0f270@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <200807190744.53416.lbickley@bickleywest.com> John, On Friday 18 July 2008, John Foust wrote: > >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:45:43 -0700 > >From: "Dennis R. Cohen" > >Subject: USUS Software Library > > > > > >Hi, > > > >A long time ago, I was pretty active in USUS and have a pretty complete > >copy of the USUS Library. Your article implied interest. The bulk of the > >set is on 8", but there is some on the 5.25" that I used with the Sage > >II. > > > >I'm getting ready to move from the Silicon Valley to Spokane, WA, so if > >you are interested, please contact me while I can still find them. I > >also have an old Sage II with Televideo 925 terminal and an Apple /// if > >your USUS Museum would be interested. I would be willing to donate them > >if you have someone to come and get them. > > > >Dennis R. Cohen > >Sunnyvale, CA I, too, responded privately to Dennis. I'll make sure whatever he's got is preserved and/or the software goes is placed in a publically available library. I'm located minutes from Dennis. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 10:06:33 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:06:33 -0500 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <488202F9.5000504@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: > But I think the _I_nternet was being referred to with the big _I_ well > into the 1980s. It all depends on whether you're using a case-sensitive OS or not. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 19 11:20:41 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:20:41 -0600 Subject: free SGI Octanes in Tucson In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:46:22 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Mark Davidson" writes: > As would I... is there a possibility you would consider shipping them? > > Mark > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 7:40 AM, joe lobocki wrote: > > > id pay shipping on one.. Mike already said he wasn't able to ship them; however, I'm in SLC and I've driven down to get stuff from Mike before. Once I get them back to SLC I could arrange shipping for them. However, you should be forewarned that shipping will be expensive because these guys are heavy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jul 19 14:27:14 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:27:14 -0600 Subject: FS: PCjr stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48824012.7060602@brutman.com> David Griffith wrote: > I have three PCjr units. One has four sidecars. One has one. The third > has none. There are also four chiclet keyboards, four "regular" keyboards > (one sealed new-in-box), a technical manual, and lots of keyboard > overlays. > > Make me an offer. > > I'm the resident Jr expert .. Can you describe what's on the sidecars? Have you looked inside of the systems for strange motherboard modifications? Which technical manual is it? Details on identifying stuff can be found here: http://www.brutman.com/PCjr Mike From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jul 19 14:03:39 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:03:39 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> Message-ID: <48823A8B.600@arachelian.com> Diane Bruce wrote: > It's hugely funny or sad to see domain registrar's automatically > prefixing domain names with 'www'. I have often joked to others that > we could safely remove the destination port from tcp/ip packets, after > all, it's always going to be port 80 right? We could save two bytes > per packet. (Again, I was joking! apart from DNS and e-mail not working > it would work fine right? ;-) ) > I think it goes back to the original idea of using a separate server for each service. So back in the day, ftp.apple.com was really a dedicated ftp server. (DNS round-robin I think came later, is that the case or am I smoking crack?) Other machines were used for other purposes, hence ns1. ns2, mail, etc. The ports had little to do with it. ftp to apple.com would get you nowhere. ftp.anycompany.com would likely work. Even if the machine might be named gandalf, or sneetch, or mickey, or potassium. So they just extended that idea and slapped on www. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 19 14:07:02 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807191136.m6JBaqUM049888@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200807191136.m6JBaqUM049888@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20080719120421.P19408@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Yepp. I've heard of people doing that. You cheapskate you. On Sat, 19 Jul 2008, Evan wrote: > Have you ever MET sellam? :) I believe that it was der Mouse posting about tunnelling on 53. I doubt that Sellam would post about circumventing the hotel's attempt to charge extra. until after he checked out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 18 12:39:03 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:39:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 18, 8 10:15:48 pm Message-ID: > > > Could you give more information? RadioShack has made at least three > > different products with that catalog number. > > That is all I have. Just a sticker, basically saying to use the 270-1551. Oh, I see, You don't have the supply, rather something that was designed to be powered from it. So you can't test the supply itself. I wopuld guess the supply is 9V (same as the battery pack -- assuming the cells are in series). Try sticking a bare plug of the appropriate type into the power socket. You will most likely find that one terminal of said plug is connected to one side of the battery pack (check with an ohmmeter), which will then give you the polarity. > > > Are batteries that expensive? Seems to me you should be able to pick up > > some cheap drug-store C cells for under $10. > > I do not want to invest ten bucks into something that is probably > worth ten bucks. I do not have anything else that uses C cells. Jury-rig an alternative 9V pack from cells that you do use? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 18 12:34:04 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:34:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: from "C. Sullivan" at Jul 18, 8 06:41:36 pm Message-ID: > Are batteries that expensive? Seems to me you should be able to pick > up some cheap drug-store C cells for under $10. I don't know about the States, but over here, 'Pound shops' (the equivalent of your Dollar stores, I guess) sell standard batteries. The quality is not great, but a couple of packs of C cells from there would probably do for testing an electronic game. > > Lastly, it seems like it is almost a requirement that anybody who is > interested in collecting classic hardware invest in a good laboratory > power supply with variable current-regulated output. 6 C batteries I certainly agree. The 3 insturemnts that get used _a lot_ on my bench are (in no particular order) : 1) A Multimeter. Actually a Fluke 85. I'd prefer an 87, but I found a second-hand 85 at a good price becasue some display segements were out. Cleaning the Zebra strips fixed that. I have to clean them again from time to time, but it's very obvious when it needs doing, and it gives accurate readings. The only thinkg I don't like about it is the fucntion swithc (including power on/off) partly formed by a wiping contact on PCB traces. 2) An HP LogicDart. Need I say more? 3) A bench PSU. I built a Velleman kit one -- 30V 8A continuous, 10A peak. The advantage of the kit is, even if I say so myself, I know it's been built properly, that safety earths are in place, and so on. Which is more than I can say about some commercial Far-eastern supplies at a place I was working. > 9 VDC. I'd set my lab supply to 8.9V, clip alligator clips to the > battery terminals, and play away. Similarly, somebody who hasn't Another very useful thing that I bought (from Maplin) was a set of all hose little 2-pin plug to power-connector adapters (the Adaptaplugs you mentioned, I think) and a cable with a socket to take those moulded on one end and, IIRC, spade lugs on the other. I cut the latter off and fitted 4mm plugs to go on the bench supply, fitting them so that if I put the red plug in the +ve socket of the supply, the polarity of the final power plug would be as indicated on it. That set-up has been very useful for powering up all sorts of things fitted which were supposed to use wall-warts. Another useful cable is a car cigar lighter socket to 4mm plugs. To run in-car adapters, etc, off the bench supply. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 18 12:21:41 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:21:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <5458.209.163.133.242.1216419771.squirrel@webmail.io.com> from "Jeff Walther" at Jul 18, 8 05:22:51 pm Message-ID: > There is no chipping or logic board swapping needed to use the 1.44 MB > floppy drive as an 800K drive. The only possible issue is the floppy > drive cable, as I wrote earlier, but the difference (IIRC) was only one > line which would be easy enough to change. That confused me for a moment when I was looking at my Mac Plus. There was this pin on the floppy conenctor that, on the CPU board side was tied, IIRC, to a power line. And on the disk drive side it was clearly an input to the elect circuitry. Only after carefully examining the floppy drive cable did I realise it was not a normal 20 way ribon. 1 or 2 of the 'cores' were solid plastic, with no wire. So no connection between those pins at the ends of the cable. IIRC, the colour of the pin-1 marker on these cables is important -- it indicates which cores are missing. And people wonder why I hate working on Apple stuff... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 18 12:24:36 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:24:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 18, 8 06:31:02 pm Message-ID: > > Anyone have specs (voltage, polarity, etc.) for the Radio Shack > 270-1551 power pack? I want to test out an old tabletop computer game, > and do not want to invest in six C cells. Are you seriously saying that you don't have a voltmeter? That would instantly answer your quesiton. It would actually be better than one of us tracking down the spec because it would be the data for _your_ unit. It's always possible soembody has modified it in the past, Somebody might, for example, have swapped the wires in the output cable, thus reversing the polarity. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jul 19 15:23:30 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FS: PCjr stuff In-Reply-To: <48824012.7060602@brutman.com> References: <48824012.7060602@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Jul 2008, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > I have three PCjr units. One has four sidecars. One has one. The third > > has none. There are also four chiclet keyboards, four "regular" keyboards > > (one sealed new-in-box), a technical manual, and lots of keyboard > > overlays. > > > > Make me an offer. > > I'm the resident Jr expert .. > > Can you describe what's on the sidecars? Have you looked inside of the > systems for strange motherboard modifications? Which technical manual > is it? > > Details on identifying stuff can be found here: > > http://www.brutman.com/PCjr Parallel port, two memory modules, one power module, and one microphone module. I haven't looked inside any of them. The tech manual is a typical IBM blue binder with "Technical Reference -- Personal Computer -- PCjr" on the spine. I have some pics at http://frotz.homeunix.org/pics/pcjr/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 19 18:28:26 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 16:28:26 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48823A8B.600@arachelian.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48823A8B.600@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4882789A.40002@brouhaha.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > I think it goes back to the original idea of using a separate server for > each service. That certainly was NOT the original idea. When the protocols were being developed, computers were big and expensive, and you generally only got one, which you had to use for all your services. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 19 19:34:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:34:36 -0600 Subject: Another "first" available for sale (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <4880246C.2040105@brouhaha.com> References: <4880246C.2040105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4882881C.80804@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > I've got the "first" sneaker ever used for sneakernet, back in 1988. > I paid quite a bit of money for it due to the obvious historical > interest, but I'm running out of storage space, so I'm willing to > entertain offers. > I'll send you a can of foot spray that should keep it good for a few more years. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jul 19 20:04:31 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:04:31 -0500 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807190441.AAA05732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <200807190441.AAA05732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48828F1F.7060201@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > I'm typing this over an ssh session run over IP tunneled through > port-53 UDP. The place I'm staying has wireless "Internet". But turns > out they severely cripple it unless you pay - but their crippling lets > port 53 through, apparently without checking that the traffic is > actually DNS traffic. So I'm just tunneling on port 53. But how did you know that before you got there to set up the other end of the tunnel? Or do you always leave an sshd listening on 53? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 20:11:16 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:11:16 -0500 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48828F1F.7060201@oldskool.org> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <200807190441.AAA05732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <48828F1F.7060201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730807191811r79fe20abm27134bf61b29648@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > But how did you know that before you got there to set up the other end of > the tunnel? Or do you always leave an sshd listening on 53? Thanks for asking the question I was afraid to ask, lest the answer be too obvious to all but me ;) From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jul 19 20:34:48 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:34:48 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <4882789A.40002@brouhaha.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48823A8B.600@arachelian.com> <4882789A.40002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48829638.2020801@arachelian.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Ray Arachelian wrote: >> I think it goes back to the original idea of using a separate server >> for each service. > > That certainly was NOT the original idea. When the protocols were > being developed, computers were big and expensive, and you generally > only got one, which you had to use for all your services. > Yes, you've gone back further than I have, so your version of original is older than mine, good for you. :-) If that were the case, there would be no reason to name hosts (or cnames to hosts) based on their role. Somehow I doubt that any large company used a single machine to handle all if their internet traffic which most certainly included an ftp support site, usenet, mail, etc. Whether Apple, DEC, Xerox or Sun. Yes, perhaps in the very early days that was feasible, but not a bit later, not right around 1994 when we started seeing www.domainname.tld hosts. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 19 22:15:36 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 23:15:36 -0400 Subject: IE4 for Alpha running NT4 Message-ID: <002001c8ea16$e19a6030$6601a8c0@game> Anybody have a link for IE4 for alpha? Casn't seem to find it on the net and a friend is looking for it. Thanks, TZ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 19 23:38:40 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:38:40 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48829638.2020801@arachelian.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48823A8B.600@arachelian.com> <4882789A.40002@brouhaha.com> <48829638.2020801@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4882C150.5010606@brouhaha.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Yes, perhaps in the very early days that was > feasible, but not a bit later, not right around 1994 when we started > seeing www.domainname.tld hosts. Even then, it was rare for a company to have an internet host that did nothing but act as a web server. Internet-facing services were typically either on a single server or distributed onto a small number of servers, so using standardized hostnames for services allowed the specific machine assignments to be done transparently, and also allowed some uniformity for remote users, being able to expect www.somecompany.com to be a web server, rather than having to know that for that particular company the web server was server3.nw.mt.somecompany.com. It wasn't until more recent times that it has become common practice to use a dedicated machine for many or all services, and even now, that trend may be reversing as services are deployed on virtual machines running on a shared physical machine. Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 00:48:19 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 01:48:19 -0400 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com> References: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com> Message-ID: <200807200148.19857.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 17 July 2008 09:10, Bob Armstrong wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > But that little monitor! > > It is small, isn't it? But it's very sharp, even on 80x24 text, so it's > easy to read if you sit about 6" away from the screen. Makes me want to > get a Fresnel lens on a swing arm, a la Brazil :-) > > Bob Heh. I remember being able to read text on the O-1 in 104-column mode after I'd installed a screen-pac upgrade. I doubt I could do it these days, though. Yes, those monitors were *very* sharp! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 20 01:31:19 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 23:31:19 -0700 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <200807200148.19857.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com>, <200807200148.19857.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48827947.19872.842E1C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2008 at 1:48, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I remember being able to read text on the O-1 in 104-column mode after I'd > installed a screen-pac upgrade. I doubt I could do it these days, though. > > Yes, those monitors were *very* sharp! :-) Funny. I got frustrated trying to read 80x24 text on a 9" monitor and went to a 12" (An old Four-Phase job) when I saw the O1 prototype. I turned to Richard Frank and told him that it'd never sell because of the tiny screen. Shows what I know. Heck, I can barely read a 17" screen nowadays... Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 01:40:33 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:40:33 -0400 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? In-Reply-To: <48827947.19872.842E1C1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com> <200807200148.19857.rtellason@verizon.net> <48827947.19872.842E1C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200807200240.33613.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 20 July 2008 02:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Jul 2008 at 1:48, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I remember being able to read text on the O-1 in 104-column mode after > > I'd installed a screen-pac upgrade. I doubt I could do it these days, > > though. > > > > Yes, those monitors were *very* sharp! :-) > > Funny. I got frustrated trying to read 80x24 text on a 9" monitor > and went to a 12" (An old Four-Phase job) when I saw the O1 > prototype. I turned to Richard Frank and told him that it'd never > sell because of the tiny screen. > > Shows what I know. Heck, I can barely read a 17" screen nowadays... When we were first looking to acquire our own personal machine (early 1980s sometime?) there weren't a whole lot of choices out there. I remember looking at the TI 99/4A, the O-1, and a few other things, and although I wanted an 80-column screen and at _two_ floppy drives (which ruled out the TI box once you added in the required expansion box and such) I couldn't get into the idea of having to scroll horizontally to see those 80 columns. And yes, that monitor was too darn small! :-) However in 1985 I ended up opening my repair business in the same building where the Osborne dealer was, got involved with the LUG, and started seeing a bunch of those anyhow. And when a store employee offered me his Executive (along with an Oki 92 printer, and nice carrying cases for both) I took him up on it. I was okay with that monitor for a good long time, and used that machine well after lots of other folks had moved on from their c64s and O-1s to peecee hardware, though eventually I ended up going there myself. Dunno how readable I'd find it these days, and it's been a really long time since I fired it up. I should probably do something about that one of these days, I guess. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From malcolm at avitech.com.au Sat Jul 19 02:34:20 2008 From: malcolm at avitech.com.au (Malcolm Macleod) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:34:20 +1000 Subject: Does anyone have a DEC VT100 Keyboard they can spare? In-Reply-To: <200807181701.m6IH0dDY020885@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807181701.m6IH0dDY020885@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003c01c8e971$dbfa2840$6702a8c0@inspiron700m> Just wondering if anyone has a VT100 keyboard they can spare for a reasonable price? I recently received a VT100 terminal (minus keyboard) and am keen to bring this back to life. Malcolm From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jul 19 10:41:09 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080719113038.GA83988@night.db.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <200807190441.AAA05732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20080719113038.GA83988@night.db.net> Message-ID: <200807191546.LAA07712@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> So I'm just tunneling on port 53. > Yepp. I've heard of people doing that. You cheapskate you. I might agree, except for the way the people running the motel spoke of the wireless system when we asked them about it. The system is outsourced and the people running the motel probably don't even know what a port number _is_. When we asked them about it, they outright recommended trotting a couple of blocks over to a place that really does have open wireless (it's the place I used to connect back home to set this tunnel up). I don't quite understand why they have it at all under those circumstances, but.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jul 19 11:07:35 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:07:35 +0100 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> >>> Could you give more information? RadioShack has made at least three >>> different products with that catalog number. >> >> That is all I have. Just a sticker, basically saying to use the 270-1551. > > Okay, but.. like, does it plug into the wall? A cigarette lighter? > Does it take the modern "Adaptaplugs" (the ones with two pins on them), > the older friction-fit barrel style, or is it one of those "four plugs > on the end of a wire, with a 9V clip" dealies? > > Again, usage of basic tools that anybody who is even remotely serious > about collecting this stuff (a $5 voltmeter) would likely answer your > question for you. Please, before you fill up this list with your rant at him, could you do Will - and the rest of us - the courtesy of reading what he wrote. A multimeter will not tell him the voltage or current of the supply, because he HASN'T GOT the supply. What he has is: - A piece of kit he wants to test. - A sticker on this kit which says that the supply it requires is called 270-1551. - Various power supplies he might use to power it. He has stated that (a) he doesn't want to buy C cells for it and (b) the battery terminals are so arranged that it would be difficult to connect directly to his bench supply. Rather than break open the case (this is presumably a sealed unit), he has asked whether anyone knows what voltage, current and polarity the machine would expect from a 270-1551. Armed with this information, he can choose a suitably rated supply and set it to deliver the right voltage at the right polarity. I can't answer his question, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable one. (That said, I'd probably buy some cheap C-cells from the local pound shop. Or even some decent C-cells for stock - they're bound to come in handy.) Philip. From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 19:53:50 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:53:50 -0500 Subject: free SGI Octanes in Tucson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: well, seeing as the price ive seen them for, shipping would be worth it... On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > "Mark Davidson" writes: > > > As would I... is there a possibility you would consider shipping them? > > > > Mark > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 7:40 AM, joe lobocki wrote: > > > > > id pay shipping on one.. > > Mike already said he wasn't able to ship them; however, I'm in SLC and > I've driven down to get stuff from Mike before. Once I get them back > to SLC I could arrange shipping for them. However, you should be > forewarned that shipping will be expensive because these guys are > heavy. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From feedle at feedle.net Sun Jul 20 07:32:54 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 05:32:54 -0700 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jul 19, 2008, at 9:07 AM, Philip Belben wrote: >>>> Could you give more information? RadioShack has made at least >>>> three >>>> different products with that catalog number. >>> >>> That is all I have. Just a sticker, basically saying to use the >>> 270-1551. >> Okay, but.. like, does it plug into the wall? A cigarette >> lighter? Does it take the modern "Adaptaplugs" (the ones with two >> pins on them), the older friction-fit barrel style, or is it one of >> those "four plugs on the end of a wire, with a 9V clip" dealies? >> Again, usage of basic tools that anybody who is even remotely >> serious about collecting this stuff (a $5 voltmeter) would likely >> answer your question for you. > > Please, before you fill up this list with your rant at him, could > you do Will - and the rest of us - the courtesy of reading what he > wrote. In our defense: it wasn't clear exactly what he wanted until well into this discussion. In fact, if you read my entire post, I was later specifically asking exactly what he was looking for, and it was only then that it was clear what he needed. To that end, he did indeed get his question answered. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 20 07:51:20 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:51:20 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have a DEC VT100 Keyboard they can spare? In-Reply-To: <003c01c8e971$dbfa2840$6702a8c0@inspiron700m> References: <200807181701.m6IH0dDY020885@dewey.classiccmp.org> <003c01c8e971$dbfa2840$6702a8c0@inspiron700m> Message-ID: <488334C8.30806@compsys.to> >Malcolm Macleod wrote: >Just wondering if anyone has a VT100 keyboard they can spare for a >reasonable price? I recently received a VT100 terminal (minus keyboard) and >am keen to bring this back to life. > > Jerome Fine replies: I have a VT100 keyboard that I can sell you at a low price. It looks like you are in Australia. I am in Canada, so the shipping and handling will likely be high. Can you found one locally? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jul 20 10:13:49 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:13:49 -0300 Subject: Osborne Computer 4 (Vixen) prototype? References: <005d01c8e80e$8900db20$9b029160$@com> <06cd01c8e8d4$e5c91310$160c010a@portajara><6.1.2.0.2.20080718083021.0263e928@mail.vauxelectronics.com> <000b01c8e908$3635e110$a2a1a330$@com> Message-ID: <0ab901c8ea7b$4b524920$160c010a@portajara> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(movie) > and the movie is named for the theme song, not the country. But it looks just like Brazil :o) From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 10:31:31 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:31:31 -0400 Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web In-Reply-To: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> Message-ID: I still say all these postings confuses small "i" internet with big "I" Internet. was the public on the net at that time? not really, residential home users certainly didn't exist. most of the public considers the "web" to be the Internet. hey, don't fault me for that, it's public thinking. and that, at least according to Wiki, was the CERN site in Aug of 1991, almost 30 years later than this. and again, it wasn't publically published until starting in 1994/1995 at the earliest. Even at this time, BBSes were the way of things, the web wasn't really thought of. I worked for a rather large PC manufacturer at the time, companies weren't advertising or using "Internet" until around 1995, perhaps it was a bit earlier in other places, but I hardly think so. For example, the first Cisco 2501 router to roll off the assembly lines was in 1994. And at least in the early days, the only addressing they had was Novell IPX. neither igrp nor ospf were there yet. (just putting things in perspective). Again, the university and research environment was different. but that's how it was. So continue with your stupid jokes, and ancient references that mean nothing to the public at large. I thought this list was a bit more mature than this So fine, into the garbage a piece of history goes. congratulations! I hope you're happy Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 10:35:48 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:35:48 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> Message-ID: actually mentioning that, wasn't there a point in time around 1994-1996 where you *HAD* to use the "www" for domains, no matter what? my memory is a little hazy on exact times of finite events, but I seem to recall that. I remember a period where you couldn't actually reach a site without the stupid "www" up front, and when I mentioned doing it, people would give you this big scared look like "oh no, you can't do THAT!" yikes. those were the crazy, hazy days of the (cough) "net" Dan. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:01:36 -0400 > From: db at db.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 02:34:00PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>>> When did Mosaic come out? If you want to pick a point in time when >> the Internet changed from a specialist tool to a worldwide utility, >> that would be the one. >> >> Mosaic made the WEB into a public tool, but remember, the web is just one >> application residing on the Internet. > > gopher, veronica.... > > It's hugely funny or sad to see domain registrar's automatically > prefixing domain names with 'www'. I have often joked to others that > we could safely remove the destination port from tcp/ip packets, after > all, it's always going to be port 80 right? We could save two bytes > per packet. (Again, I was joking! apart from DNS and e-mail not working > it would work fine right? ;-) ) > > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 20 10:41:29 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Save a Solbourne: 5/600 on eBay for pickup Message-ID: <200807201541.m6KFfTcg018968@floodgap.com> For people who don't have enough hot and heavy VME bus action, noticed this on eBay. Pickup only -- otherwise I'd be bidding on it myself. Looks like a nice 5/600 for anyone with an interest in Solbournes or SPARCs in general. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170241777050 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Apparently I am not very good at being tricky. -- John Hughes -------------- From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 10:44:07 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:44:07 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Mosaic huh? hrm, don't think so. I wouldn't pin it down to that time. Yes, it's a fuzzy bit of math. and what *DO* we choose as that "moment" in time. What is "public awareness"? what represents consumer awareness? it's a tough nut to crack. for that matter, as you say, does it HAVE a precise number? I personally rather doubt it. I think, like all marketing situations (that's technically what we're talking about, a marketing term) public awareness would be when a good percentage of the public knows what you're talking about. when people line up at 8pm the night before at FutureShop (or name of your store) to buy the thing that goes on say 10am the next day. Remember those days? Actually, that's when it's already got "market penetration". How about when you can post an article in the newspaper about the "Internet/web" and people know what youre talking about. when was the "net" first advertised publiclly in wide distribution? that might be an acceptable "moment", even if still, a bit late. working for a PC manufacturer in north america, with 6 offices in Canada and the US, back in 1994, "we" didn't really push it until late 1995/early 1996 is that a good benchmark? (shrug) certainly on the consumer level its a good barometer Pick any product you may find the same thing. how about MIcrowave ovens? or LCD monitors? vcrs ? dvd players? Dan. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:19:34 -0400 > From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: "first" computer on the internet > >>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Gahlinger writes: > > Dan> no, I didn't misunderstand. perhaps it was the last one Einar > Dan> had. But it was what he created Email on. Check the Wiki for > Dan> him. > > Dan> The internet didn't become a really public thing until around > Dan> 1994. Sure it existed in various forms, but when you talk about > Dan> the "Internet" (Capital "I"), the public wasn't aware of it or > Dan> using it until late 1994. ... > > If you're going to use fuzzy metrics like "public awareness" you can > prove anything you want. What's your threshold? 1% of the public? > 0.001% of the public? Whose survey are you using? > > When did Mosaic come out? If you want to pick a point in time when > the Internet changed from a specialist tool to a worldwide utility, > that would be the one. I forgot the year, but I'm sure it's well > before 1994. And I remember looking into an "Information Superhighway > Onramp" as a product or service at that time, so clearly it was > emerging as a consumer utility then. > > paul > _________________________________________________________________ Find hidden words, unscramble celebrity names, or try the ultimate crossword puzzle with Live Search Games. Play now! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/212 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jul 20 11:09:02 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:09:02 +0100 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4883631E.6020504@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2008 16:44, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > working for a PC manufacturer in north america, with 6 offices in Canada and the US, back in 1994, "we" didn't really push it until late 1995/early 1996 > is that a good benchmark? (shrug) certainly on the consumer level its a good barometer Good benchmark? No, I don't think so. The manufacturer I was working for in the UK had ISP accounts in 1988, and I recall friends having personal accounts with Demon Internet by 1990. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spc at conman.org Sun Jul 20 11:13:49 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:13:49 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dan Gahlinger once stated: > > Mosaic huh? hrm, don't think so. I wouldn't pin it down to that time. Mosaic was released in 1993 [1] and I certainly remember it blowing me away when I first saw it. I even remember downloading and compiling it under IRIX as I was tired of logging into the Sun machines upstairs and running it remotely [2]. I do know that I set up my first home page in mid-to-late 1994 [3] and for that, I had to download the NCSA web server and compile that. Also around that time the first ISPs in south Florida (if not in all of Florida) open their doors to the public and at the time I remember thinking "It's about time!" AOL had given its subscribers access to USENET since 1993. > What is "public awareness"? what represents consumer awareness? Arguably, the first mass-public mention of the Internet happened in 1988. I remember my Mom mentioning an article she read about some nation-wide network going down. > when was the "net" first advertised publiclly in wide distribution? that > might be an acceptable "moment", even if still, a bit late. Depends upon the service. AOL with USENET and email in 1993. Compuserve probably a bit before that. Heck, still remember the Trumpet IP stack for Windows. -spc (First used the Internet in 1989 ... ) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_%28web_browser%29 [2] College. I worked on the second floor out of the math department. Computer Science was on the third floor. [3] http://pineal.math.fau.edu/~spc/ Don't bother really---it's no longer a valid address. From spc at conman.org Sun Jul 20 11:15:03 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:15:03 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20080720161503.GB32554@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dan Gahlinger once stated: > > actually mentioning that, > > wasn't there a point in time around 1994-1996 where you *HAD* to use the > "www" for domains, no matter what? Only because of convention. Remember back when Time Magazine ran a gopher server? I do. -spc (I remember a lot of gopher servers actually ... ) From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jul 20 11:27:11 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:27:11 -0400 Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web Message-ID: <01C8EA64.00D44680@mandr71> ----------Original Message: Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:31:31 -0400 From: Dan Gahlinger Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web >So continue with your stupid jokes, and ancient references that mean nothing to the public at large. >I thought this list was a bit more mature than this >So fine, into the garbage a piece of history goes. congratulations! I hope you're happy >Dan. ----------Reply: You're absolutely right; we all need to feel guilty and assume responsibility for your decision to throw this (so-called) piece of history into the garbage. You have so much to teach us about maturity; thank you! m From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 20 11:40:48 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:40:48 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> References: , , <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <48830820.201.A70E2CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2008 at 12:13, Sean Conner wrote: > Depends upon the service. AOL with USENET and email in 1993. > Compuserve probably a bit before that. Heck, still remember the > Trumpet IP stack for Windows. I may still have the diskettes from my "internet Starter Kit" from around then with NCSA Mosaic, Trumpet and (IIRC) Eudora. Web site hosting back then was pretty rough if you had to go through a commercial ISP to do it. Does anyone remember how much of a hassle it was to transfer hosting on a domain? Fill out a form, mail or FAX it (Network Solutions obviously didn't trust email), sometimes furnishing a copy of ID in case you had an uncooperative ISP. And because there weren't a lot of hosting services (and competition), there could be some real a**holes to deal with. But that was only because I was coming off of Compuserve--and I'd been sending and receiving Usenet email there since about 1989. If you were a Microsoft developer back then, CIS was almost a necessity-- it was the only way to get any sort of a timely answer to a question from Bill's boys. When Windows 3.0 deployed VxDs, CIS was the easiest way to get your VxD ID from Microsoft. Lynx dates from about 1993, doesn't it? Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 11:37:09 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:37:09 -0500 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <4883631E.6020504@dunnington.plus.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4883631E.6020504@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <488369B5.7020208@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 20/07/2008 16:44, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> working for a PC manufacturer in north america, with 6 offices in >> Canada and the US, back in 1994, "we" didn't really push it until late >> 1995/early 1996 >> is that a good benchmark? (shrug) certainly on the consumer level its >> a good barometer > > Good benchmark? No, I don't think so. The manufacturer I was working > for in the UK had ISP accounts in 1988, and I recall friends having > personal accounts with Demon Internet by 1990. Demon's personal account offerings are probably a good metric for when the 'net went mainstream in the UK - but doubtless the timeframe in the US and the rest of the world was a little different. It's not good indication of when anything was invented though - just of when it reached wider public consciousness... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 11:41:10 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:41:10 -0500 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <48836AA6.1050002@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > Mosaic was released in 1993 [1] and I certainly remember it blowing me > away when I first saw it. Heh. I saw it back around then and remember thinking what an utter waste of time it all was - I was perfectly content with Gopher, FTP, telnet, and various inter-system instant messaging clients :-) The web was of little use. 15 years later and I still think it's a shame people push web-based services above anything else; so much more could be done with the concept of a vast computer network... cheers J. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 20 11:59:06 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:59:06 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> Message-ID: <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > wasn't there a point in time around 1994-1996 where you *HAD* to use the "www" for domains, no matter what? No. It was always a convention for DNS entries, nothing more. It was always possible for a site to use non-www names for web servers. It may be more common now for web sites to have names without the www, or to have two names that resolve to the same server, one with and one without the www. Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 20 12:01:33 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080720161503.GB32554@brevard.conman.org> from Sean Conner at "Jul 20, 8 12:15:03 pm" Message-ID: <200807201701.m6KH1XYv015384@floodgap.com> > Remember back when Time Magazine ran a gopher server? > I do. > -spc (I remember a lot of gopher servers actually ... ) There's still a few out there :) *cough*gopher.floodgap.com*cough* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. ------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 20 12:03:10 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:03:10 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3C2D40A2-C351-461E-8990-45A8F87521A5@neurotica.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > wasn't there a point in time around 1994-1996 where you *HAD* to > use the "www" for domains, no matter what? No, most definitely not. Where are you hearing this stuff, Dan? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 20 12:05:18 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:05:18 -0700 Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web In-Reply-To: References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4883704E.4090906@brouhaha.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > So continue with your stupid jokes, and ancient references that mean nothing to the public at large. What the "public at large" thinks, knows, or believes might be interesting but often has little to do with actual history. > I thought this list was a bit more mature than this > So fine, into the garbage a piece of history goes. congratulations! I hope you're happy The response from people here seems entirely appropriate given that you posted wild claims that you still haven't been able to substantiate or even explain. The Sum workstation you described may indeed have been the first to do something interesting, but cannot possibly have been the first to send Internet email as you apparently claimed. If it really was the first computer to be used for something interesting and memorable, to get anyone interested in it, you need to know what it actually did, with details, and be able to authenticate it. So far you haven't given us any indication that you are able to do any of that. It is unsurprising, therefore, that no museums you have contacted show the slightest interest. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 20 12:15:47 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Sean Conner wrote: > Depends upon the service. AOL with USENET and email in 1993. Compuserve > probably a bit before that. Heck, still remember the Trumpet IP stack for > Windows. Compuserve started in 1969! When internet access started becoming popular, like AOHell, it even tried to compete with the internet for a while, with forums, etc. Now it is owned by AOL? Remember when Netcom, etc. put their own wrappers around internet content? Remember Prodigy? There is certainly some validity to examining the historical point wherein public awareness crossed some specific or arbitrary threshold. For example, when was the first NON-COMPUTER oriented advertsing containing a URL? Who was the first politician to mention a website? Who decided to paint a URL on the fenders of UC campus police cars? When did Fry's finally get a website? But, looking at the time period when Dan first became aware of the internet is mutually incompatible with ANY sort of "first computer on the internet" type of claim to fame. There is some valid curiousity about the 1048576th computer on the internet, but museum interest?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From shumaker at att.net Sun Jul 20 12:16:35 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:16:35 -0400 Subject: Save a Solbourne: 5/600 on eBay for pickup In-Reply-To: <200807201541.m6KFfTcg018968@floodgap.com> References: <200807201541.m6KFfTcg018968@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <488372F3.60001@att.net> FWIW, If someone is really interested and wants to bid , I'm in Reston, VA and could pickup and arrange shipping. You'd be at the mercy of whatever the local packing and shipping place wanted to send it from Reston, VA though. s shumaker Cameron Kaiser wrote: > For people who don't have enough hot and heavy VME bus action, noticed this > on eBay. Pickup only -- otherwise I'd be bidding on it myself. Looks like > a nice 5/600 for anyone with an interest in Solbournes or SPARCs in general. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170241777050 > From tonym at compusource.net Sun Jul 20 12:16:37 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony Mori) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:16:37 -0400 Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> Message-ID: <001001c8ea8c$5eb2b430$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Gahlinger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 11:31 AM Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web > > I still say all these postings confuses small "i" internet with big "I" > Internet. > was the public on the net at that time? not really, residential home users > certainly didn't exist. > > most of the public considers the "web" to be the Internet. hey, don't > fault me for that, it's public thinking. > and that, at least according to Wiki, was the CERN site in Aug of 1991, > almost 30 years later than this. > > and again, it wasn't publically published until starting in 1994/1995 at > the earliest. > Even at this time, BBSes were the way of things, the web wasn't really > thought of. > > I worked for a rather large PC manufacturer at the time, companies weren't > advertising or using "Internet" > until around 1995, perhaps it was a bit earlier in other places, but I > hardly think so. > > For example, the first Cisco 2501 router to roll off the assembly lines > was in 1994. > And at least in the early days, the only addressing they had was Novell > IPX. > neither igrp nor ospf were there yet. (just putting things in > perspective). Um, I don't really know what's up with that, but what the heck - I'll bite. By the time the 25xx series rolled out, most large companies with a T1-or-greater connection were most likely running a Cisco AGS/IGS series router - we had an AGS+ at Citrix, so I don't really know what your reference to the 25xx series has anything remotely to do with it...as to IPX only, well, I don't know - seems we were doing IP just fine even on the AGS+. I never know you could connect to, say, UUNet, using IPX. Learn something new every day, I suppose.... > > Again, the university and research environment was different. but that's > how it was. > > So continue with your stupid jokes, and ancient references that mean > nothing to the public at large. > > I thought this list was a bit more mature than this > > So fine, into the garbage a piece of history goes. congratulations! I hope > you're happy The issue is you are trying to tell a bunch of geeks (no offense, folks - I'm included) the history of the internet, that probably 99% of us actually WENT THROUGH, and are apparently trying to do some history changing?? I wouldn't get too ticked off, I mean, you're talking to a serious amount of concentrated computer/mainframe/networking/development knowledge on this list, and quite frankly, trying to tell us that email was invented on a SparcStation SLC in 1994 is, well, a tad insulting. We are QUITE a bit more intelligent than that, and no amount of Wikipedia-diving on your part is going to change the fact that we know better. As to the Sun, well, if it WAS that valuable, "ain't no way" you'd trash it - I know that, YOU know that, and THEY know that, and yet another case of underestimating the group... I'm not feeding any more trolls. From tonym at compusource.net Sun Jul 20 12:19:18 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony Mori) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:19:18 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: , , <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <48830820.201.A70E2CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002301c8ea8c$be218d10$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:40 PM Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > On 20 Jul 2008 at 12:13, Sean Conner wrote: > >> Depends upon the service. AOL with USENET and email in 1993. >> Compuserve probably a bit before that. Heck, still remember the >> Trumpet IP stack for Windows. > > I may still have the diskettes from my "internet Starter Kit" from > around then with NCSA Mosaic, Trumpet and (IIRC) Eudora. Web site > hosting back then was pretty rough if you had to go through a > commercial ISP to do it. Does anyone remember how much of a hassle > it was to transfer hosting on a domain? Fill out a form, mail or FAX > it (Network Solutions obviously didn't trust email), sometimes > furnishing a copy of ID in case you had an uncooperative ISP. And > because there weren't a lot of hosting services (and competition), > there could be some real a**holes to deal with. Still have the # for NSI memorized: 703-742-4777 Sad, huh? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 20 12:23:24 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <3C2D40A2-C351-461E-8990-45A8F87521A5@neurotica.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> <3C2D40A2-C351-461E-8990-45A8F87521A5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20080720101953.G54554@shell.lmi.net> Obligatory_car_analogy: A guy up the street has the "first" car in America! It's a 1930 Ford. Does Dan have OS/2 on the SLC workstation? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 20 12:25:21 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:25:21 -0400 Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web In-Reply-To: <4883704E.4090906@brouhaha.com> References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> <4883704E.4090906@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <68873744-CD45-476E-852A-4BD7EB6BF699@neurotica.com> On Jul 20, 2008, at 1:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > The Sum workstation you described may indeed have been the first to > do something interesting, but cannot possibly have been the first > to send Internet email as you apparently claimed. This was about a SPARCstation-SLC, right? The SLC was introduced in May of 1990. I was by no means a "very early Internet user" (by tech geek standards, not general public standards), but even I had been exchanging email regularly for years before this. Good grief. The assertion that a SPARCstation-SLC (or any SPARCstation, or any Sun system at all for that matter) was involved in the "creation of email" is nothing short of absurd. It's right up there with the "Microsoft created the Internet" crap that I hear from clueless people all the time. The one thing that bothers me the most about this is that this assertion will now be archived on the WWW, which someone might run across via a search engine, and the absurdity will be propagated. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tonym at compusource.net Sun Jul 20 12:29:09 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony Mori) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:29:09 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:15 PM Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Sean Conner wrote: >> Depends upon the service. AOL with USENET and email in 1993. >> Compuserve >> probably a bit before that. Heck, still remember the Trumpet IP stack >> for >> Windows. > > Compuserve started in 1969! > When internet access started becoming popular, like AOHell, it even tried > to compete with the internet for a while, with forums, etc. > Now it is owned by AOL? > > Remember when Netcom, etc. put their own wrappers around internet content? > > Remember Prodigy? Heh - Prodigy, the Source, CompuServe, BRS After Dark, there were a TON of them... I remember starting out on CompuServe in 1982 or so - 76576,2064 - I guess I will NEVER forget it! 300 baud on a Tandy CoCo2 (which I STILL have...). As I recall, I *LEFT* AOL in about 1993/1994 - my original username was PowerTrip :) AOL, as I recall, also rolled-in the PC-Link system that Radio Shack/Tandy included with all their PC's. REAL old-timers will remember that there was even an AOL client for the Apple ][GS! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 20 12:42:59 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080720104013.X54554@shell.lmi.net> > Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > wasn't there a point in time around 1994-1996 where you *HAD* to use the "www" for domains, no matter what? On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > No. It was always a convention for DNS entries, nothing more. It was > always possible for a site to use non-www names for web servers. My old teaching [cob]-website was/is http://merritt.edu/~fcisin It has never been a www. But, some demented browsers will connect even with an extraneous www. From feedle at feedle.net Sun Jul 20 12:45:45 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:45:45 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Tony Mori wrote: > REAL old-timers will remember that there was even an AOL client for > the Apple ][GS! Nah. REAL old timers remember AOL as that Atari 2600 cartridge modem thingy called GameLine. *shudder* I still think I owe my parents for some hours I racked up. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 12:53:59 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:53:59 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200807201353.59483.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 20 July 2008 13:15, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Sean Conner wrote: > > Depends upon the service. AOL with USENET and email in 1993. > > Compuserve probably a bit before that. Heck, still remember the Trumpet > > IP stack for Windows. > > Compuserve started in 1969! > When internet access started becoming popular, like AOHell, it even tried > to compete with the internet for a while, with forums, etc. > Now it is owned by AOL? > > Remember when Netcom, etc. put their own wrappers around internet content? > > Remember Prodigy? Hey, anybody else out there remember fidonet? I was a user, then a point, then a node, and finally an NC before I pulled the plug on it -- in late 2006! Not to mention moderating a whole bunch of "echos"... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 20 13:19:30 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: from "C. Sullivan" at "Jul 20, 8 10:45:45 am" Message-ID: <200807201819.m6KIJU36013692@floodgap.com> > > REAL old-timers will remember that there was even an AOL client for > > the Apple ][GS! > > Nah. REAL old timers remember AOL as that Atari 2600 cartridge modem > thingy called GameLine. And don't forget about QuantumLink. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Homestar has a web site? -- Strong Bad ------------------------------------- From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Jul 20 13:21:46 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:21:46 -0500 Subject: vintage computers for pick-up in austin, tx Message-ID: <4883823A.40409@pacbell.net> I decided to give away most of my collection. I just don't have the time anymore to play with any of it, and the thought of wrapping this all for ebay gives me convulsions. The condition is (please read carefully, and sorry for shouting): ####################################################### ### ### ### THIS IS FOR PICK-UP AT MY HOUSE IN AUSTIN TEXAS ### ### ### ####################################################### No, I can't ship. Sorry. Really. I'm not going to do it. The sooner you pick it up the better, as I might loose my mind and decide to keep it all. If there is interest from more than one person, I reserve the right to parcel things up how I see fit. If you have some special connection or need for any of these items, let me know and I'll take it into consideration. (1) IBM 5120. BASIC-only. Dual 8" disk drives. Works. Needs terminator to allow the disk drives to work (the terminator is built into the printer that is daisy-chained off the expansion bus, but when I bought the 5120, I didn't want to pay for shipping a hundred pound dot matrix printer with it). Has manuals and a few floppies. (2) An Apple II+, and Apple IIe with an accelerator card (3.5 MHz), a bunch of floppies, some games new in box, joysticks, a few disk drive units, a few cards (3) Northstar Horizon, in the aluminum case. With one 5.25" drive, one 10 MB (I think) hard drive. Works. Currently turbodos is installed and is working, but I have turbodos, hdos, and normal nsdos disks available too. I have a number of manuals for it as well. (4) A Sage II computer. Dual 5.25' floppies. This is a 68000-based system. Works. Boot media too. (5) A PT Helios disk system and controller board set. This doesn't work, but I believe is repairable. These were touchy to begin with, so it would take a lot of perseverance and some skill to get it going again. (6) Two Sol-20s. Both have been tricked out with Hogg Labs upgrades to 80x24 text, and relocation of the monitor roms to F000 (switchable). Both had their keypads replaced and work fine. This will come with a large collection of manuals, pretty much everything that is on www.sol20.org (7) TRS-80 Model 4P. That is the luggable model. Works. Perhaps I can find some boot disks. Thanks. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 20 13:23:34 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Save a Solbourne: 5/600 on eBay for pickup In-Reply-To: <488372F3.60001@att.net> from s shumaker at "Jul 20, 8 01:16:35 pm" Message-ID: <200807201823.m6KINYmE015442@floodgap.com> > FWIW, If someone is really interested and wants to bid , I'm in Reston, > VA and could pickup and arrange shipping. You'd be at the mercy of > whatever the local packing and shipping place wanted to send it from > Reston, VA though. It would probably have to go freight to most places, I would imagine. A 5/500 is a heavy sucker, and that cost me around $50 to ship, and is less than a third the size of a /600. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If they give you ruled paper, write the other way. -- Juan Ramon Jimenez --- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jul 20 13:16:14 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:16:14 +0100 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <488369B5.7020208@gmail.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4883631E.6020504@dunnington.plus.com> <488369B5.7020208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488380EE.30801@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2008 17:37, Jules Richardson wrote: > Demon's personal account offerings are probably a good metric for when > the 'net went mainstream in the UK - but doubtless the timeframe in the > US and the rest of the world was a little different. It's not good > indication of when anything was invented though - just of when it > reached wider public consciousness... Agreed, I'm sure the US would have been somewhat different. I was just pointing out that some part of the public had that consciousness before the 90s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From db at db.net Sun Jul 20 13:51:31 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:51:31 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807191136.m6JBaqUM049888@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200807191136.m6JBaqUM049888@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20080720185131.GA45941@night.db.net> On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 07:36:00AM -0400, Evan wrote: > >>> Yepp. I've heard of people doing that. You cheapskate you. > > Have you ever MET sellam? :) I have met der Mouse ;-) - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sun Jul 20 14:07:06 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:07:06 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> Tony Mori wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:15 PM > Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > > >> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Sean Conner wrote: >>> Depends upon the service. AOL with USENET and email in 1993. >>> Compuserve >>> probably a bit before that. Heck, still remember the Trumpet IP >>> stack for >>> Windows. >> >> Compuserve started in 1969! >> When internet access started becoming popular, like AOHell, it even tried >> to compete with the internet for a while, with forums, etc. >> Now it is owned by AOL? >> >> Remember when Netcom, etc. put their own wrappers around internet >> content? >> >> Remember Prodigy? > > Heh - Prodigy, the Source, CompuServe, BRS After Dark, there were a TON > of them... > I remember starting out on CompuServe in 1982 or so - 76576,2064 - I > guess I will NEVER forget it! > 300 baud on a Tandy CoCo2 (which I STILL have...). > > > As I recall, I *LEFT* AOL in about 1993/1994 - my original username was > PowerTrip :) > > AOL, as I recall, also rolled-in the PC-Link system that Radio > Shack/Tandy included with all their PC's. > > REAL old-timers will remember that there was even an AOL client for the > Apple ][GS! > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for internet access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN networking? OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for IBM's ISP as well as a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released in 1994, but not a full TCP/IP stack until Warp Connect in 1995. I assume Unix, Linux, AppleOS or AmigaOS must have had this prior to that? I remember all those damn AOL floppy disks for all the windows users. FORMAT A: was a good use for them. Mark From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 20 14:18:34 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:18:34 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <48838F8A.9080004@brouhaha.com> Mark wrote: > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for > internet access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just > LAN networking? It certainly wasn't any Microsoft operating system. Microsoft was at least ten years late to the party. If you define "internet access" as "having TCP/IP", it might have been BSD 4.1a, which included the crufty BBN TCP/IP code, and was released in 1982. ARPANET switched from NCP to TCP/IP on January 1, 1983 ("flag day"). From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 20 14:24:55 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:24:55 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> References: , <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>, <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <48832E97.13715.B072208@cclist.sydex.com> Tymnet (from Tymshare)? The network service of SBC in the 1970's escapes me, but I recall a lot of head-banging going at CDC corporate after they'd picked it up from IBM (via lawsuit). Ticketron, IIRC, was one of the results of the corporate brainstorming. Cheers, Chuck From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sun Jul 20 14:27:31 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:27:31 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48838F8A.9080004@brouhaha.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <48838F8A.9080004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <488391A3.2010205@ptdprolog.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Mark wrote: >> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for >> internet access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that >> just LAN networking? > > It certainly wasn't any Microsoft operating system. Microsoft was at > least ten years late to the party. > > If you define "internet access" as "having TCP/IP", it might have been > BSD 4.1a, which included the crufty BBN TCP/IP code, and was released in > 1982. ARPANET switched from NCP to TCP/IP on January 1, 1983 ("flag day"). It was stupid of me to leave out BSD. I knew that IBM used the TCP/IP stack in BSD for their OS/2 and probably AIX as well. Mark From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 14:39:28 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:39:28 -0400 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48839470.3030809@gmail.com> C. Sullivan wrote: > > On Jul 18, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Why is it the last one? > > Ostensibly, this is the last one because the Hotel Pennsylvania is being > converted into a residential property, and the lack of suitable venues > in New York City makes relocation difficult. > > If only there was a similar convention in another city with lots of > convention space... oh, wait. You're talking about the Javits Center, I presume? Too expensive. Anyway, Vornado Realty Trust has apparently scrapped the conversion plans due to the mortgage bust. Peace... Sridhar From tonym at compusource.net Sun Jul 20 14:43:58 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony Mori) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:43:58 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: <200807201819.m6KIJU36013692@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <004901c8eaa0$f423c130$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet >> > REAL old-timers will remember that there was even an AOL client for >> > the Apple ][GS! >> >> Nah. REAL old timers remember AOL as that Atari 2600 cartridge modem >> thingy called GameLine. > > And don't forget about QuantumLink. Isn't QuantumLink what became AOL? Which was also PC-Link on the Tandy/Radio Shack side? From feedle at feedle.net Sun Jul 20 15:06:37 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:06:37 -0700 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: <48839470.3030809@gmail.com> References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> <48839470.3030809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A855AA5-2CCB-4133-9050-87939079D723@feedle.net> On Jul 20, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > C. Sullivan wrote: >> On Jul 18, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> Why is it the last one? >> Ostensibly, this is the last one because the Hotel Pennsylvania is >> being converted into a residential property, and the lack of >> suitable venues in New York City makes relocation difficult. >> If only there was a similar convention in another city with lots of >> convention space... oh, wait. > > You're talking about the Javits Center, I presume? Too expensive. Actually, that was more a thinly veiled jab at the supposed "competition" between 2600 and a similar convention (DefCon) that takes place in another city (Las Vegas) with lots of convention space (and keeps building more). From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Jul 20 15:11:11 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:11:11 +0000 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080720104013.X54554@shell.lmi.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> <20080720104013.X54554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080720201111.GB32566@usap.gov> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:42:59AM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > wasn't there a point in time around 1994-1996 where you *HAD* to use the "www" for domains, no matter what? > > On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > > No. It was always a convention for DNS entries, nothing more. It was > > always possible for a site to use non-www names for web servers. > > My old teaching [cob]-website was/is > http://merritt.edu/~fcisin > It has never been a www. > But, some demented browsers will connect even with an extraneous www. Not that this thread needs much help, but in 1995 (hardly any sort of "first"), I used to serve a small number of text pages from the Amiga 3000 I took with me to Antarctica; it was accessible from all over the world as http://kumiss.mcmurdo.gov/ This sort of thing is no longer possible due to changes in rules backed up with a fairly tight firewall, but once upon a time, it was as easy as getting a name inserted in our nameserver and firing up something to serve pages. While it may have been commonplace in the early days of the web to "require" that a default web server live at www.whatever.com, it was merely uncommon, not forbidden, to also point whatever.com to the web server as well (which is now somewhat ordinary). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Jul-2008 at 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.7 F (-56.5 C) Windchill -103.4 F (-75.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.3 kts Grid 22 Barometer 672.7 mb (10905 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Jul 20 15:28:07 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:28:07 +0000 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: <20080720202807.GC32566@usap.gov> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:45:45AM -0700, C. Sullivan wrote: > > On Jul 20, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Tony Mori wrote: > > >REAL old-timers will remember that there was even an AOL client for > >the Apple ][GS! > > Nah. REAL old timers remember AOL as that Atari 2600 cartridge modem > thingy called GameLine. We never had an Atari 2600 back in the day, but when I moved up from a PET to a C-64 (1982), the first thing I stuck on it after a disk drive was a VIC-MODEM. It came with some sort of CompuServe promotional offer (a few free hours or free sign-up or something), but the simple character-echo program in the back of the VIC-MODEM manual was too simple to be really useful. I ended up having to write my own to support CompuServe and the BBSes I used to call (AppleII-based, mostly, IIRC). When QuantumLink came along some time later, I pretty much ignored it. Most ironic that I eventually worked for them for a couple of years after they became AOL (though I was originally employed by CompuServe as they were being digested - about half-way through my time there, my badge changed over, my payday changed, the sign on the building changed, etc... > *shudder* I still think I owe my parents for some hours I racked up. If my mother had written things down, I might yet owe her for more than a few $6/hour (offpeak) hours at 300 baud from those days. It was really easy to rack up quite a bill, especially after one finds the CIS on-line shop with posters and other paraphernalia (my first on-line shopping experience, as I expect it was for many people). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Jul-2008 at 20:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.1 F (-56.7 C) Windchill -103.1 F (-75.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.9 kts Grid 19 Barometer 672.9 mb (10897 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From george at rachors.com Sun Jul 20 15:49:52 2008 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807201819.m6KIJU36013692@floodgap.com> References: <200807201819.m6KIJU36013692@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20080720134939.N94464@racsys.rachors.com> and "Samuel"... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> REAL old-timers will remember that there was even an AOL client for >>> the Apple ][GS! >> >> Nah. REAL old timers remember AOL as that Atari 2600 cartridge modem >> thingy called GameLine. > > And don't forget about QuantumLink. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Homestar has a web site? -- Strong Bad ------------------------------------- > From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 15:48:00 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:48:00 -0400 Subject: vintage computers for pick-up in austin, tx In-Reply-To: <4883823A.40409@pacbell.net> References: <4883823A.40409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200807201648.00758.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 20 July 2008 14:21, Jim Battle wrote: > No, I can't ship. Sorry. Really. I'm not going to do it. I understand, really. Too bad there's no way in hell I can pick up. > (4) A Sage II computer. Dual 5.25' floppies. This is a 68000-based > system. Works. Boot media too. This is the one on the list that's of most interest to me, as I remember well lusting after those when I saw the magazine ads. I say this just on the off chance that something can somehow be arranged. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 15:51:09 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:51:09 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> References: <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <200807201651.10052.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 20 July 2008 15:07, madodel wrote: > I remember all those damn AOL floppy disks for all the windows users. > FORMAT A: was a good use for them. Did that, and have since found that when I go to use them I have to format 'em again, though surprisingly I'm not seeing bad sectors like I am with some of the "brand name" floppies I also have around. Got plenty of 'em left, too, even this many years later. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 16:17:03 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:17:03 -0400 Subject: Experience with ECB bus? Message-ID: Hi I am designing an ECB bus backplane for my N8VEM SBC project and am looking for some peer review prior to going to manufacturing of these PCBs. The N8VEM SBC seems to be working out alright. About a half dozen people have successfully built the SBC so now it is time to start thinking about peripheral expansion. Although the N8VEM SBC uses the ECB bus for expansion, I have not ever used ECB bus machines as they are common in Europe but extremely rare in the US. I have made an ECB bus backplane prototype using prototype boards and it works well enough so I think the basic concept is sound. However, I would like to make this ECB backplane as common and general as possible so other hobbyists can use it not just N8VEM SBC builders. I would really like to avoid any inadvertent N8VEM unique extensions. If you have experience with ECB bus based machines, I would like to hear your comments and suggestions. So far, the ECB bus backplane has six DIN 41612 connectors. All 96 pins are routed. Pins for IEI/IEO have jumper pads per connector to allow usage of Zilog peripheral interrupt priority scheme. The backplane has its own Vcc and Gnd, including a power switch and LED power indicator. The PCB is 2 layer to keep costs low. Each side has a ground fill zone for a low impedance ground. I will be using the double thick PCB material (3.2 mm) for rigidity and the double weight copper trace for low impedance. Vcc and ground traces are triple wide (51 mils) minimum and also routed on both the component and copper sides of the board. The rest of the traces are the usual 17 mils wide. After I order some of these backplanes, I will make them available in a similar fashion as the N8VEM SBC. The PCBs will be available for $20 each plus shipping. The builder will have to source the rest of the parts. If you are interested in helping or have questions, please review the PCB backplane design at: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/files?&sort=rdate There are two recently uploaded PDF files containing the schematic and the PCB layout. Thanks in advance for any *constructive* feedback. Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Jul 20 16:48:32 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:48:32 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080720104013.X54554@shell.lmi.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> <20080720104013.X54554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4883B2B0.8070008@crash.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > > My old teaching [cob]-website was/is > http://merritt.edu/~fcisin Fred, did they *really* change the name of the school because of Windows Vista?!? Nice rumor to start either way... ;^) From tonym at compusource.net Sun Jul 20 17:00:08 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony Mori) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:00:08 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net><004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <20080720202807.GC32566@usap.gov> Message-ID: <005c01c8eab3$f9d48840$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 4:28 PM Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > When QuantumLink came along some time later, I pretty much ignored it. > Most ironic that I eventually worked for them for a couple of years > after they became AOL (though I was originally employed by CompuServe > as they were being digested - about half-way through my time there, > my badge changed over, my payday changed, the sign on the building > changed, etc... > >> *shudder* I still think I owe my parents for some hours I racked up. > > If my mother had written things down, I might yet owe her for more than > a few $6/hour (offpeak) hours at 300 baud from those days. It was really > easy to rack up quite a bill, especially after one finds the CIS on-line > shop with posters and other paraphernalia (my first on-line shopping > experience, as I expect it was for many people). > Hmmm....I dunno Ethan - On CIS, CB Simulator was a REALLY good way to rack up the hours! Thank goodness they came up with the package for CBSim'ers, or I might've gone bankrupt! From shumaker at att.net Sun Jul 20 17:09:28 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:09:28 -0400 Subject: Save a Solbourne: 5/600 on eBay for pickup In-Reply-To: <200807201823.m6KINYmE015442@floodgap.com> References: <200807201823.m6KINYmE015442@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4883B798.6000707@att.net> yup.. would expect some serious charges just looking at the images - but figured I'd make the offer. ss Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> FWIW, If someone is really interested and wants to bid , I'm in Reston, >> VA and could pickup and arrange shipping. You'd be at the mercy of >> whatever the local packing and shipping place wanted to send it from >> Reston, VA though. > > It would probably have to go freight to most places, I would imagine. A > 5/500 is a heavy sucker, and that cost me around $50 to ship, and is less > than a third the size of a /600. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 20 17:33:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:33:13 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <4883B2B0.8070008@crash.com> References: , <20080720104013.X54554@shell.lmi.net>, <4883B2B0.8070008@crash.com> Message-ID: <48835AB9.30487.BB380A5@cclist.sydex.com> Well, if we're going to have fun with "first" claims, there's a Washington Post article by Kenneth Baer that contains the following interesting claim: "Computers were quickly becoming more pervasive, too. VisiCalc, an early spreadsheet program, was introduced in 1978 and quickly became the first commercially successful piece of software" Read the article here: http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/editorial/stories/07/20/0720b aer_edit.html BTW, Baer is a former speechwriter for Al Gore. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 20 19:14:59 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:14:59 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48835AB9.30487.BB380A5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20080720104013.X54554@shell.lmi.net>, <4883B2B0.8070008@crash.com> <48835AB9.30487.BB380A5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4883D503.3010208@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, if we're going to have fun with "first" claims, there's a > Washington Post article by Kenneth Baer that contains the following > interesting claim: > > "Computers were quickly becoming more pervasive, too. VisiCalc, an > early spreadsheet program, was introduced in 1978 and quickly became > the first commercially successful piece of software" I seem to recall there being a thriving market for commercial software for IBM mainframes by the early 1970s. I suppose the claim depends on how you define "commercial success". If you measure it by units sold (rather than dollars), and set a high enough bar, VisiCalc could be a "first". Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 20 19:19:59 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <004901c8eaa0$f423c130$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> from Tony Mori at "Jul 20, 8 03:43:58 pm" Message-ID: <200807210019.m6L0Jxiq019840@floodgap.com> > > And don't forget about QuantumLink. > > Isn't QuantumLink what became AOL? Which was also PC-Link on the Tandy/Radio > Shack side? I don't know about PC-Link, but yeah, QuantumLink became AOL. They left a Stratus in the back office for the QL people but never really attempted to incorporate them into AOL, and then eventually pulled the plug. A lot of us in the Commodore community have never forgiven Steve Case for that, although I do still maintain an AOL account because so far I have never once failed to find a local access number even out in absolutely nowhere. And my roadgeek hobby does take me to absolutely nowhere sometimes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Save a horse, starve a fever. Wait, what? -- Alex Payne -------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 19:45:45 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 01:45:45 +0100 Subject: UK101 In-Reply-To: <575131af0807161117qbcae564h7863c82a83b922eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0807161117qbcae564h7863c82a83b922eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0807201745l462fc7ay298caafdfbe649@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/16 Liam Proven : > Anyone interested in this early 8-bit micro? I've just been offered > one for free, but I don't really have the room. > > Happy to post it on if the recipient pays P&P from London. [Apols for replying to myself, here] My word! I'm astonished at the levels of interest in this box. I'm still trying to contact the donor to arrange collection at the moment. In addition to this thread, I've also had multiple emails from would-be claimants; between multiple time zones and transmission lag, I have no idea who was first. My current thought is this: I could put it on eBay, and whatever the selling price it goes for, I will donate that to Bletchley Park or some other suitable charity relating to preserving classic computers. How does that sound to everyone? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 19:54:21 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:54:21 -0400 Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web In-Reply-To: References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> Message-ID: > For example, the first Cisco 2501 router to roll off the assembly lines was in 1994. > And at least in the early days, the only addressing they had was Novell IPX. > neither igrp nor ospf were there yet. (just putting things in perspective). NSFnet hung Cisco AGS routers off the RS/6000-T3B backbone routers. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 20:00:05 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:00:05 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > For example, when was the first NON-COMPUTER oriented advertsing > containing a URL? I knew the world was coming to an end when I first saw a URL on a banana. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 20:04:02 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:04:02 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807210019.m6L0Jxiq019840@floodgap.com> References: <004901c8eaa0$f423c130$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <200807210019.m6L0Jxiq019840@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > I do still maintain an AOL account because so far I have never once failed > to find a local access number even out in absolutely nowhere. And my roadgeek > hobby does take me to absolutely nowhere sometimes. Did you have a SureRemote account? Those were pretty scarce. And yes, AOL dialup racks (called Big Dial) were placed in the weirdest places. One (I think in New Jersey) was in the basement of a museum, surrounded by stuffed wild animals. -- Will From ray at arachelian.com Sun Jul 20 20:04:05 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:04:05 -0400 Subject: IE4 for Alpha running NT4 In-Reply-To: <002001c8ea16$e19a6030$6601a8c0@game> References: <002001c8ea16$e19a6030$6601a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4883E085.5020605@arachelian.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody have a link for IE4 for alpha? Casn't seem to find it on the net and a friend is looking for it. > > Hi Ted, Try asking on the AlphaNT list. http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/?forum=alphant (I used to run NT on a Multia for a while, and the w2k beta... Perhaps one of the service packs includes IE4, but I don't remember my early windows days much...) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 20 20:15:59 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <4883B2B0.8070008@crash.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <48836EDA.5040707@brouhaha.com> <20080720104013.X54554@shell.lmi.net> <4883B2B0.8070008@crash.com> Message-ID: <20080720180351.P70292@shell.lmi.net> > > My old teaching [cob]-website was/is > > http://merritt.edu/~fcisin On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Steven M Jones wrote: > Fred, did they *really* change the name of the school because of Windows > Vista?!? Nice rumor to start either way... ;^) They never formally admitted that that was the reason, and there were several supplemental reasons cited. The president of the school has transferred to a different district, the vice-president died, none of the deans from that time are still around, . . . If you'd like, I'll look up the Compuserve account number of the head of the CIS department, and we can contact him for an independent opinion of the motivation. FWIW, I advocated for keeping the 30 year old Vista College name, so that we could get more successful marketing of courses that involved MICROS~1 products. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 20 20:16:27 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:16:27 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <4883D503.3010208@brouhaha.com> References: , <48835AB9.30487.BB380A5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4883D503.3010208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <488380FB.24669.C48EE20@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2008 at 17:14, Eric Smith wrote: > I suppose the claim depends on how you define "commercial success". If > you measure it by units sold (rather than dollars), and set a high > enough bar, VisiCalc could be a "first". WordStar, CP/M were also-rans? Seems to me that the also-rans pretty much obliterated VisiCalc sales before too long (e.g. SuperCalc, Multiplan, Microplan and a host of others). If you want to set a really high bar, then Lotus 1-2-3 might be the "first" with VisiCalc just a bit player. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 20 20:24:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:24:28 -0700 Subject: IE4 for Alpha running NT4 In-Reply-To: <002001c8ea16$e19a6030$6601a8c0@game> References: <002001c8ea16$e19a6030$6601a8c0@game> Message-ID: <488382DC.16055.C5046D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2008 at 23:15, Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody have a link for IE4 for alpha? Casn't seem to find it on the net and a friend is looking for it. > > Thanks, > > TZ Teo, I think I've got it here, so if you strike out for a link, let me know and I'll UL it to an ftp for you. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 20:28:37 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:28:37 -0400 Subject: vintage computers for pick-up in austin, tx In-Reply-To: <4883823A.40409@pacbell.net> References: <4883823A.40409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4883E645.80007@gmail.com> Jim Battle wrote: > (1) IBM 5120. BASIC-only. Dual 8" disk drives. Works. Needs > terminator to allow the disk drives to work (the terminator is built > into the printer that is daisy-chained off the expansion bus, but when I > bought the 5120, I didn't want to pay for shipping a hundred pound dot > matrix printer with it). Has manuals and a few floppies. Is there anyone in Austin who'd be willing to pick this up and ship it for me? I'll make it worth your while. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 20:35:30 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:35:30 -0400 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: <7A855AA5-2CCB-4133-9050-87939079D723@feedle.net> References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> <48839470.3030809@gmail.com> <7A855AA5-2CCB-4133-9050-87939079D723@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4883E7E2.4080609@gmail.com> C. Sullivan wrote: >>>> Why is it the last one? >>> Ostensibly, this is the last one because the Hotel Pennsylvania is >>> being converted into a residential property, and the lack of suitable >>> venues in New York City makes relocation difficult. >>> If only there was a similar convention in another city with lots of >>> convention space... oh, wait. >> >> You're talking about the Javits Center, I presume? Too expensive. > > Actually, that was more a thinly veiled jab at the supposed > "competition" between 2600 and a similar convention (DefCon) that takes > place in another city (Las Vegas) with lots of convention space (and > keeps building more). The problem is that 2600 is cheap. New York has a comparable amount of convention space and significantly more hotel space than Las Vegas. It's just that a lot of it is expensive, and a good bit of it is not hacker-convention-friendly. Las Vegas is somewhat more tolerant of what conservative people call "fringe" groups. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 20:48:30 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:48:30 -0400 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: > In our defense: it wasn't clear exactly what he wanted until well into this > discussion. In fact, if you read my entire post, I was later specifically > asking exactly what he was looking for, and it was only then that it was > clear what he needed. > > To that end, he did indeed get his question answered. Did I? I still do not know what to feed this thing. Considering it has a VF display, I can't assume anything about this, since there is probably some sort of high voltage stuff going on in there. And recently with a TR-606 I got at a hamfest, I found that sometimes the power plug and battery of these types of things are not the same. This project pretty much ended up in the "aw...fuck it" category. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 20 20:53:18 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:53:18 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <488380FB.24669.C48EE20@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <48835AB9.30487.BB380A5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4883D503.3010208@brouhaha.com> <488380FB.24669.C48EE20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4883EC0E.4000107@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > WordStar, CP/M were also-rans? Seems to me that the also-rans pretty > much obliterated VisiCalc sales before too long (e.g. SuperCalc, > Multiplan, Microplan and a host of others). If you want to set a > really high bar, then Lotus 1-2-3 might be the "first" with VisiCalc > just a bit player. Well, that was basically my point. If you set the bar for "commercial success" at an arbitrary point, you get an arbitrary "first". From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 20 23:54:13 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:54:13 -0400 Subject: IE4 for Alpha running NT4 References: <002001c8ea16$e19a6030$6601a8c0@game> <488382DC.16055.C5046D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <006d01c8eaed$d2d9d8a0$6601a8c0@game> It's been found, one of the original pressed IE4 cds had it. Thanks, TZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:24 PM Subject: Re: IE4 for Alpha running NT4 > On 19 Jul 2008 at 23:15, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> Anybody have a link for IE4 for alpha? Casn't seem to find it on the net >> and a friend is looking for it. >> >> Thanks, >> >> TZ > > Teo, > > I think I've got it here, so if you strike out for a link, let me > know and I'll UL it to an ftp for you. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 12:44:47 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: <58971.9512.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> remember GeNiE (however it was spelled)? I sure don't, but I do know a guy who developed a pretty impressive MODULA-2 app to run on a '286 w/any number of "4 port" cards (these typically were 80186 based). It had massive capabilities if you were to ask me. The service provider opted out though, and preferred to make use of a rather expensive mini they had just purchased. From jvdg at jvdg.net Sun Jul 20 13:03:11 2008 From: jvdg at jvdg.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:03:11 +0200 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807201353.59483.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <200807201353.59483.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2008, at 19:53, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Hey, anybody else out there remember fidonet? Most certainly! I dialled into a BBS to get my email, and also access to several usenet groups. This was my internet (Internet?) access until I went to university and got direct access via their Unix workstations at the faculty, and a little later via dial-up shell access at home. (Still through the university servers; public ISP's didn't surface in the Netherlands for another year or so.) All this on my good old Philips MSX NMS-8255 with a 1200 baud modem. Good times! ,xtG .tsooJ -- When someone asks if you're a god, say "yes." -- Joost van de Griek From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 20 16:58:30 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:58:30 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > From: Eric Smith > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:18:34 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Mark wrote: >> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for >> internet access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just >> LAN networking? > >It certainly wasn't any Microsoft operating system. Microsoft was at >least ten years late to the party. > >If you define "internet access" as "having TCP/IP", it might have been >BSD 4.1a, which included the crufty BBN TCP/IP code, and was released in >1982. ARPANET switched from NCP to TCP/IP on January 1, 1983 ("flag day"). I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. Allison From sales at c-reset.com Sun Jul 20 21:27:58 2008 From: sales at c-reset.com (sales) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:27:58 -0500 Subject: FS: PCjr stuff, Richard from m CArlos PCjr.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080721022758.12017.qmail@mail.neospire.net> 7-20-2008 Hello Carlos: Thanks for passing along the message on the IBM PCjr computers etc. We have plenty of PCjr items at this time and can not purchase more at this time. We are still working on the office building to make it meet the City of Dallas Code. This has been going on since Mid March and I am close to the end. We owe a BIG Thank You GOD for his help in sending us some volunteers from our church to help with the work. I found some new LNW80 Technical Reference Manuals and also some NEW copies of the CP/M 2.2 Operating system while cleaning up - Do you want one ? ? You may remember this was an early CP/M machine similar to the TRS-80 Model 1. If you do I will give pass them along to Bruno the next time I see him. Best Regards Richard Computer Reset Dallas, TX Remember: Faith expects from GOD what is beyond all expectation. Jose carlos Valle writes: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: cs.csubak.edu > Date: 2008/7/18 > Subject: FS: PCjr stuff > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > I have three PCjr units. One has four sidecars. One has one. The third > has none. There are also four chiclet keyboards, four "regular" keyboards > (one sealed new-in-box), a technical manual, and lots of keyboard > overlays. > > Make me an offer. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > -- > Jos? Carlos Valle ? Presidente curador > www.museudocomputador.com.br > Blog do curador:--HTTP://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com > Tel office: 011 4666-7545 - celular prov: 8794-6730 > Tel skype 3013-3946 - "Tudo posso naquele que fortalece, Felipenses 4:13" From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jul 20 21:42:17 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48828F1F.7060201@oldskool.org> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <53764.65.126.154.6.1216406040.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20080718190135.GB34522@night.db.net> <200807190441.AAA05732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <48828F1F.7060201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200807210245.WAA16892@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'm typing this over an ssh session run over IP tunneled through >> port-53 UDP. The place I'm staying has wireless "Internet". But >> turns out they severely cripple it unless you pay - but their >> crippling lets port 53 through, apparently without checking that the >> traffic is actually DNS traffic. So I'm just tunneling on port 53. > But how did you know that before you got there to set up the other > end of the tunnel? I didn't. I set up the tunnel using the place a couple of blocks down the street, the one I mentioned in my other message in this thread, the one that _does_ have open wireless. > Or do you always leave an sshd listening on 53? That wouldn't help much; they blocked TCP 53. Only UDP 53 seemed open. (Yes, _I_ know the DNS uses TCP. _They_ apparently don't, or perhaps just don't care. In this case, I suspect ignorance, but also suspect they wouldn't care if they did know.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jul 21 01:21:09 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:21:09 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. While uucp can be run over the internet, it is fundamentally a store-and-forward system, and unrelated to internet protocols. IIRC uucp was invented by Mike Lesk around 1976. From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jul 21 01:28:47 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:28:47 -0700 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2008, at 6:48 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Did I? Yes, you did. > I still do not know what to feed this thing. Then you weren't paying attention. > Considering it has a VF display, I can't assume anything about this, > since there is probably some sort of high voltage stuff going on in > there. And recently with a TR-606 I got at a hamfest, I found that > sometimes the power plug and battery of these types of things are not > the same. If it takes 9V of batteries, it will run off 9V, somewhere. It sounds like you expected us to spoon-feed an answer, and now that we've asked you to spend a couple of minutes of your time to actually research the problem a bit, you're all butt-hurt. But you've been told what to feed it, and how. So, STFU, and/or do it. From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jul 21 01:42:08 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:42:08 -0700 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: <4883E7E2.4080609@gmail.com> References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> <48839470.3030809@gmail.com> <7A855AA5-2CCB-4133-9050-87939079D723@feedle.net> <4883E7E2.4080609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58EF1986-7B62-43A0-A0DE-9E75DB1BC315@feedle.net> On Jul 20, 2008, at 6:35 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The problem is that 2600 is cheap. New York has a comparable amount > of convention space and significantly more hotel space than Las > Vegas. It's just that a lot of it is expensive, and a good bit of it > is not hacker-convention-friendly. Las Vegas is somewhat more > tolerant of what conservative people call "fringe" groups. You think the average Vegas casino likes the idea of opening their doors to a bunch of hackers? DefCon has, many times, almost "not happened next year" because of Vegas hotel nervousness. Only now that DefCon has developed a reputation of running up a bar tab (the Alexis Park outright told them one year we outdrank the Air Force) will many casinos even take their calls. It is still been an uphill challenge for DefCon to find hotel space. Las Vegas might, as a city be more tolerant.. but nothing makes casinos nervous than the thought of a thousand sweaty hackers running loose on their slot machine networks. Remember: it was classic "hackers" that came up with the whole card-counting schemes that cleaned up the blackjack tables all those years ago. And Vegas supposedly has the most hotel rooms of any metropolitan area in the world, and the most convention space in the United States. One corner, Tropicana Ave. and Las Vegas Blvd., has over 20,000 rooms. Even "smaller" properties in Vegas typically have 500 rooms. In 2008 alone, Vegas is adding almost 10,000 rooms: and 2008 is a "slow year". 18 of the world's 25 largest hotels? In Las Vegas. There isn't even a New York hotel on that list. As somebody who's lived and worked in Sin City, Vegas is insane. New York might be a big city, but imagine if 5th Avenue was all 2,500+ room hotels, and you might have an idea what Las Vegas Blvd. South is like. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 21 02:11:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:11:44 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> References: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4883D440.13193.D8E30F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2008 at 23:21, Eric Smith wrote: > Allison wrote: > > I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. > > While uucp can be run over the internet, it is fundamentally a > store-and-forward system, and unrelated to internet protocols. Thought I mentioned it earlier in connection with email. Cheers, "no one" From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Jul 21 01:55:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:55:10 +0000 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> References: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080721065510.GB4714@usap.gov> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 11:21:09PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Allison wrote: > >I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. > > While uucp can be run over the internet, it is fundamentally a > store-and-forward system, and unrelated to internet protocols. That is a concise way of putting it - in one sense, an assemblage of UUCP hosts is a network of sorts, but by a technique that optimises passing discrete gobs of prewritten content (files/e-mails/articles) over any sort of real-time interaction. Part of, but not all of what "The Internet" is and does. I myself had nearly 10 years of experience with UUCP before I ever sent or received a single packet using TCP/IP. I also used UUCP more than 10 years after that point, too (it was still in widespread use within Lucent through the late 1990s as an in-house software distibution channel - my co-workers were surprised that someone a) as young as me, and b) who hadn't already been working at Bell Labs for years, came in the door in the mid-1990s knowing how to set up UUCP). Certainly for a number of years, it was the primary way in which most people got e-mail from outside their employer/institution, but e-mail is not the whole of "The Internet" (and neither is the Web). > IIRC uucp was invented by Mike Lesk around 1976. I knew it was old when I first loaded it up, but wasn't sure how old. Thanks for the datapoint. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-Jul-2008 at 06:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -90.9 F (-68.3 C) Windchill -123.8 F (-86.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.5 kts Grid 36 Barometer 674.7 mb (10829 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 21 03:25:54 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:25:54 -0800 Subject: RS Wall Wart References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <48844813.C0E29240@cs.ubc.ca> "C. Sullivan" wrote: > But you've been told what to feed it, and how. > > So, STFU, and/or do it. This is un-called for, as was the rest of the message. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 21 03:31:44 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:31:44 -0800 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48844971.9AEEED6C@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. I think there was some brief mention of UUCP in the thread. I remember UUCP from circa 1981/2 just before we got a connection to the ARPANET/Internet. It was not a 'transparent' user experience. I put it in that class of "pre-networking networks": we can copy a file from machine to machine, let's hack together some user apps to make use of it and hack together a rudimentary routing technique. From tonym at compusource.net Mon Jul 21 02:36:41 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:36:41 GMT Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: <200807210336862.SM00692@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Allison ajp166 at bellatlantic.net >Sent 7/20/2008 5:58:30 PM >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > > >I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. > >Allison > > Why I mentioned UUCP yesterday, I think. I used it to connect to miami.edu for email. This woulda' been reeeeeally early 90's Tony From jvdg at sparcpark.net Mon Jul 21 02:50:10 2008 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:50:10 +0200 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On 21/07/2008, C. Sullivan wrote: > It sounds like you expected us to spoon-feed an answer, and now that we've > asked you to spend a couple of minutes of your time to actually research the > problem a bit, you're all butt-hurt. Who's this "we" you keep referring to? Certainly you don't pretend to be speaking for me in this unneccesarily rude tone, are you? Looking back on the thread, it has been quite clear what exactly the question was from the beginning, there appears to be no reason whatsoever for your condescending tirade. .tsooJ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Jul 21 04:04:02 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:04:02 +0100 Subject: Sticky cable (was Re: UK1010 In-Reply-To: <200807210644.m6L6i6jO059948@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807210644.m6L6i6jO059948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > My word! I'm astonished at the levels of interest in this box. I'm > still trying to contact the donor to arrange collection at the moment. > > In addition to this thread, I've also had multiple emails from > would-be claimants; between multiple time zones and transmission lag, > I have no idea who was first. > > My current thought is this: I could put it on eBay, and whatever the > selling price it goes for, I will donate that to Bletchley Park or > some other suitable charity relating to preserving classic computers. > > How does that sound to everyone? Sounds very fair to me, though I was not one of the claimants as I have had one of these from new. On a related subject, the mains cable of my UK101 has become sticky where it has been in contact with expanded polystyrene for many years. Has this happened to anyone else and does anyone know if this is a chemical reaction? It might just be coincidence and maybe I spilt something on it and have forgotten about it. I used a large ceiling tile to stand the machine on when I first got it so it would not scratch the table and its been there ever since. Yes I know NOW about static and expanded polystyrene (I think its called styrofoam in the states), but back then all the 74 series chips I bought, came by post pressed into bits of normal white (non antistatic) expanded polystyrene so I presumed it was safe, apart from the fire risk of course. I bought my UK101 ready assembled though I had to insert the second 4k of chips about 6 months later because every time I rang to complain they said they went out yesterday and were in the post. By the time I got them the chips had fallen in price considerably. I built an expansion board with a 6522 on it though I cannot remember why, nor what a 6522 can do. About then I was offered a moonlighting job programming the Apple ][+ with the offer of a machine (with two disk drives) as payment so I lost interest in the UK101. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 04:31:05 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:31:05 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48845759.7000702@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >> If you define "internet access" as "having TCP/IP", it might have been >> BSD 4.1a, which included the crufty BBN TCP/IP code, and was released in >> 1982. ARPANET switched from NCP to TCP/IP on January 1, 1983 ("flag day"). > > I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. I did, at some point. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 04:31:05 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:31:05 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48845759.7000702@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >> If you define "internet access" as "having TCP/IP", it might have been >> BSD 4.1a, which included the crufty BBN TCP/IP code, and was released in >> 1982. ARPANET switched from NCP to TCP/IP on January 1, 1983 ("flag day"). > > I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. I did, at some point. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 04:34:24 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:34:24 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> References: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48845820.9030001@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Allison wrote: >> I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. > > While uucp can be run over the internet, it is fundamentally a > store-and-forward system, and unrelated to internet protocols. I'm not sure that's relevant. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 04:41:32 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:41:32 -0400 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: <58EF1986-7B62-43A0-A0DE-9E75DB1BC315@feedle.net> References: <011001c8e935$fe949cf0$f750f945@evan> <488145DC.2050504@oldskool.org> <48839470.3030809@gmail.com> <7A855AA5-2CCB-4133-9050-87939079D723@feedle.net> <4883E7E2.4080609@gmail.com> <58EF1986-7B62-43A0-A0DE-9E75DB1BC315@feedle.net> Message-ID: <488459CC.2060009@gmail.com> C. Sullivan wrote: > As somebody who's lived and worked in Sin City, Vegas is insane. New > York might be a big city, but imagine if 5th Avenue was all 2,500+ room > hotels, and you might have an idea what Las Vegas Blvd. South is like. We're not just talking about Manhattan here, although the hotel capacity of Manhattan is nothing to sneeze at. The New York metro area is *big*. Actually the best place to read up on that sort of thing is New York's documents for the failed Olympic bid. I've spent a *lot* of time in LV. Enough time to know that the end of the metro area isn't very far from the center, and it ends rather abruptly. New York's doesn't end so abruptly, but there's no special reason for that, it's just that it's a couple hundred years older. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jul 21 06:17:26 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:17:26 +0100 Subject: Sticky cable (was Re: UK1010 In-Reply-To: References: <200807210644.m6L6i6jO059948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48847046.6010805@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/07/2008 10:04, Roger Holmes wrote: > On a related subject, the mains cable of my UK101 has become sticky > where it has been in contact with expanded polystyrene for many years. > Has this happened to anyone else and does anyone know if this is a > chemical reaction? I've seen this often, especially on equipment stored in expanded polystyrene shells. It's the result of the plasticiser in the PVC insulation softening the expanded polystyrene, which then sticks to the cable, and isn't usually hard to remove. Wipe it with a little turpentine substitute/white spirit on a piece of kitchen roll to remove the sticky goo, then dry with a fresh piece of kitchen roll. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 07:28:48 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:28:48 -0500 Subject: Sticky cable (was Re: UK1010 In-Reply-To: <48847046.6010805@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200807210644.m6L6i6jO059948@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48847046.6010805@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <48848100.9080601@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 21/07/2008 10:04, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> On a related subject, the mains cable of my UK101 has become sticky >> where it has been in contact with expanded polystyrene for many years. >> Has this happened to anyone else and does anyone know if this is a >> chemical reaction? > > I've seen this often, especially on equipment stored in expanded > polystyrene shells. Yep. Acorn mains cables in particular, for some reason! Like you say, it can be removed pretty easily - I've even just peeled it off in a long strip in some cases. The lesson seems to be to never put anything into a polystyrene shell without bagging it first. cheers Jules From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jul 21 08:40:34 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:40:34 -0700 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 21/07/2008, C. Sullivan wrote: > >> It sounds like you expected us to spoon-feed an answer, and now >> that we've >> asked you to spend a couple of minutes of your time to actually >> research the >> problem a bit, you're all butt-hurt. > > Who's this "we" you keep referring to? Certainly you don't pretend to > be speaking for me in this unneccesarily rude tone, are you? No, I was speaking in the royal. Perhaps an apology is in order. I felt like the gentleman in question got his question answered, and was just being bitchy because the answer required him to do a little work... and that this person was just interested in the financial side of the equation ("Hey, maybe I can eBay this thing I found at a yard sale and make a buck!") and not about "the love of collecting" or the history behind the hardware. If I misinterpreted his intentions, I apologize. From madodel at ptdprolog.net Mon Jul 21 08:55:06 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:55:06 -0400 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? Message-ID: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the battery compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. Is there a safe way to remove this? Mark From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 09:07:27 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <639454.44670.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Yea for anyone that stayed till the end, this was not "The Last" Hope The "next" hope called "The Next Hope" will be in 2010 --- On Fri, 7/18/08, C. Sullivan wrote: > From: C. Sullivan > Subject: Re: HOPE Conference this weekend > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 9:45 PM > On Jul 18, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> This weekend is the seventh "Hackers On > Planet Earth" conference, > >> once again > > > > It is not merely the 7th, but the last. So if you > ever wanted to > > go, this is the one. > > Well, not necessarily the "last." 2600 > management is well-known for > saying things like this (the first HOPE was supposed to be > the ONLY > HOPE) to try to boost attendance. > > It will certainly be the last at the Hotel Pennsylvania, a > place that > has some meaning to telephony history. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 21 09:27:56 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:27:56 -0700 Subject: polymorphic on ebay In-Reply-To: <4883823A.40409@pacbell.net> References: <4883823A.40409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Hi I'm not the seller or even know who it is. There is a Polymorphic 8813/2 on ebay. If anyone in this group gets it, I can help with disks for it. It doesn't look to come with any disks. I always thought the machine I got was the one Jim smoked at VCF. It had a RAM board with the blown tantalum. It may be that I just got the RAM board that was swapped from the other machine ( Jim had two machines ). Mine also came with a blown main power cap as well. I suspect they just made a best of two. Mine was one of Jim's anyway and this seems to be the other unit, by the description. If someone gets this one, it looks like it has schematics for the single density disk drive. I've been looking for this. I have the rest of the manuals shown. The machine does require a parallel ASCII keyboard and a video monitor. It also uses hard sectored disk. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 From trag at io.com Mon Jul 21 09:41:34 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:41:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <200807201705.m6KH545u050518@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807201705.m6KH545u050518@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <19015.209.163.133.242.1216651294.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:21:41 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Only after carefully examining the floppy drive cable did I realise it > was not a normal 20 way ribon. 1 or 2 of the 'cores' were solid plastic, > with no wire. So no connection between those pins at the ends of the > cable. > > IIRC, the colour of the pin-1 marker on these cables is important -- it > indicates which cores are missing. There is a yellow striped cable and a red striped cable. The color stripes are the pin-1 marker, but the different colors indicated different wiring. > And people wonder why I hate working on Apple stuff... Oh, I doubt that many of us, even the ones who concentrate all their classic computer fun on Apple machines, really wonder at that. :-) I try not to dwell on the silly hardware decisions and focus on the things I like, but there are these oddities which consume little bits of my wetware memory--like the differently striped floppy cables. And I more or less ignore the existence of the old models that were very poor design decisions from the concept, such as the 68030 based machines with 16 bit data busses. The SE/30 though, there's an elegant little machine--with just enough imperfections to provide fodder for the hardware hacking inclined. :-) Jeff Walther From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 10:13:37 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:13:37 -0400 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: > Perhaps an apology is in order. I felt like the gentleman in question got > his question answered, and was just being bitchy because the answer required > him to do a little work... and that this person was just interested in the > financial side of the equation ("Hey, maybe I can eBay this thing I found at > a yard sale and make a buck!") and not about "the love of collecting" or the > history behind the hardware. If I misinterpreted his intentions, I > apologize. Hey, that veiled insult there was about a subtle as a sloppy fart from an opera singer. I make no attempt to hide that, YES, I am a dealer of old technology, both computer and radio, and yes, I AM out to make a buck. I am the guy that goes out and buys literally tons of equipment at a time to gets it to collectors. I bet there are at least a hundred customers of mine on this list, and many are regulars. Reasonable collectors understand this relationship. Now if you want to paint me as the "typical evil Ebay dealer", black top hat, waxed mustache, permanent mischievous smile and all - go ahead. Just look up the term "blowback". So do us all a favor and unsubscribe from this list. You are not making a good impression of yourself. Oh, and I opened the game up. It wants AC. And another thing - this game was part of my father's estate. Yes, a buck would have been nice to make for my brother and I. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 10:14:39 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:39 +0100 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <575131af0807210814t7d62980ckc101c6c98d186050@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/21 madodel : > I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am > attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the battery > compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. Is there a > safe way to remove this? I'd like to know too, as this has happened to my TP701C too. However, I've heard that they are /fearsome/ beasts to strip. "Motie engineering" was one description. True? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 10:17:57 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:17:57 +0100 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <19015.209.163.133.242.1216651294.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200807201705.m6KH545u050518@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19015.209.163.133.242.1216651294.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: <575131af0807210817l580988efxd05590c09274c59b@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/21 Jeff Walther : > The SE/30 though, there's an elegant little machine--with just enough > imperfections to provide fodder for the hardware hacking inclined. :-) If I ever get mine working, what I'd like to do, at some point, is max it out with RAM, Ethernet and so on and have it driving an external 21" screen with AU/X. I'm not sure *why* I want it - I have no actual use for it - but this was the sort of spec that was to unrealistically expensive to be even worth /dreaming/ about in 1988 or so when I first started working with Macs. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From madodel at ptdprolog.net Mon Jul 21 10:30:11 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:30:11 -0400 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <575131af0807210814t7d62980ckc101c6c98d186050@mail.gmail.com> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807210814t7d62980ckc101c6c98d186050@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4884AB83.2040802@ptdprolog.net> Liam Proven wrote: > 2008/7/21 madodel : >> I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am >> attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the battery >> compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. Is there a >> safe way to remove this? > > I'd like to know too, as this has happened to my TP701C too. > > However, I've heard that they are /fearsome/ beasts to strip. "Motie > engineering" was one description. True? > I had to buy a Torx T1 driver to get the four tiny screws in the front out, the others came out with a T6 driver that I had. I haven't attempted to remove the main board yet, but once the screws are out it was pretty simple to get the keyboard off. Disassembly instructions are included in ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/tpvol2.pdf Hopefully it all goes back together. Mark From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 11:00:42 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <559137.30115.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/21/08, C. Sullivan wrote: > Perhaps an apology is in order. I felt like the gentleman > in question > got his question answered, and was just being bitchy > because the > answer required him to do a little work... and that this > person was > just interested in the financial side of the equation > ("Hey, maybe I > can eBay this thing I found at a yard sale and make a > buck!") and not > about "the love of collecting" or the history > behind the hardware. If > I misinterpreted his intentions, I apologize. It did come off quite harshly, really. Reading this thread, I am amazed that people would get so righteous about such a simple, clear question. I mean, the guy asked a polite question, and he gets an inbox full of flames about how he should be probing this thing with a $100 bench supply, and how he needs to buy a multimeter. If we look at the original question, we see that it was : "Anyone have specs (voltage, polarity, etc.) for the Radio Shack 270-1551 power pack?" Now, the reports that this number now matches up to some car cigarette lighter adapter aren't too useful, because it goes to an old tabletop computer game, probably from the late 70's. I'm sure that we are all more than well aware of how often Radio Shack changes or discontinues part numbers, and that the current catalog isn't going to match up with one from thirty years ago. Now, I didn't post initially - although I read the first question. I don't know the answer to this question, so I didn't have anything useful I thought that I could add. But, someone out there with a thirty year old Radio Shack catalog can probably look this tidbit of information up rather easily. Yes, we can guess "it's probably 12v", or "should be 9v", but we don't know. Is it AC? DC? Who knows? These old electronic games had all sorts of different adapters. We can make assumptions about the suitable quality of wall wart adapters in general, and complain about the fact that cheap switchable adapters are or aren't suitable. We can argue until the cows come home. We have in the past. But none of this helps the original poster, who's asking a polite, simple question, to a group of intelligent computer collectors. This list has degraded into flame wars more than once in the past, over various people's feelings and the way these electronics should be treated, cared for, repaired or powered. And frankly, things like this make me afraid of asking simple questions myself. Who knows when I might accidentally ask something that I should have looked up elsewhere, or ask about something that I shouldn't be trying to do. C'mon guys. We're all adults here. Relax - this is a hobby. Have fun. And if anyone has an ancient Radio Shack catalog, could they look up that number and help our friend Will out? -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 11:01:10 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <236060.74126.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/21/08, C. Sullivan wrote: > Perhaps an apology is in order. I felt like the gentleman > in question > got his question answered, and was just being bitchy > because the > answer required him to do a little work... and that this > person was > just interested in the financial side of the equation > ("Hey, maybe I > can eBay this thing I found at a yard sale and make a > buck!") and not > about "the love of collecting" or the history > behind the hardware. If > I misinterpreted his intentions, I apologize. It did come off quite harshly, really. Reading this thread, I am amazed that people would get so righteous about such a simple, clear question. I mean, the guy asked a polite question, and he gets an inbox full of flames about how he should be probing this thing with a $100 bench supply, and how he needs to buy a multimeter. If we look at the original question, we see that it was : "Anyone have specs (voltage, polarity, etc.) for the Radio Shack 270-1551 power pack?" Now, the reports that this number now matches up to some car cigarette lighter adapter aren't too useful, because it goes to an old tabletop computer game, probably from the late 70's. I'm sure that we are all more than well aware of how often Radio Shack changes or discontinues part numbers, and that the current catalog isn't going to match up with one from thirty years ago. Now, I didn't post initially - although I read the first question. I don't know the answer to this question, so I didn't have anything useful I thought that I could add. But, someone out there with a thirty year old Radio Shack catalog can probably look this tidbit of information up rather easily. Yes, we can guess "it's probably 12v", or "should be 9v", but we don't know. Is it AC? DC? Who knows? These old electronic games had all sorts of different adapters. We can make assumptions about the suitable quality of wall wart adapters in general, and complain about the fact that cheap switchable adapters are or aren't suitable. We can argue until the cows come home. We have in the past. But none of this helps the original poster, who's asking a polite, simple question, to a group of intelligent computer collectors. This list has degraded into flame wars more than once in the past, over various people's feelings and the way these electronics should be treated, cared for, repaired or powered. And frankly, things like this make me afraid of asking simple questions myself. Who knows when I might accidentally ask something that I should have looked up elsewhere, or ask about something that I shouldn't be trying to do. C'mon guys. We're all adults here. Relax - this is a hobby. Have fun. And if anyone has an ancient Radio Shack catalog, could they look up that number and help our friend Will out? -Ian From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jul 21 11:03:44 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:03:44 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <200807191700.m6JH0DSA039038@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807191700.m6JH0DSA039038@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 7/19/08, C. Sullivan wrote: >...I'm going to out on a limb here and assume that you are trying to use >a variable power supply wall-wart with one of those little slider >switches on it to do different voltages (is that the Radio Shack # >270-1551?). >... I have one like that. It works in many cases, but I'm not much of a fan. See below. >...Worse, most cheap supplies of this >type will sag as the load exceeds the rated maximum: so while it might >indeed be 9VDC at 100mA, at 175mA of load it can drop to 7.5V or lower. Worse yet... mine does the inverse. Plugging it in unloaded, with the switch set to 3V, still lets the voltage rise to around 10V (as indicated by my analog multimeter, so it's not *totally* unloaded). That scares me. I'm sure any reasonable load would drag it down near 3V, but ... is there any silicon in my load that wants to not see 12V, even powered off? >A proper lab supply will allow you to >give anything you find the RIGHT power, cleanly, and with overcurrent >protection that could save the device from frying. Seconded, even though I have not done so myself (yet). While on the topic, has anyone any experience with the Velleman integrated DMM/Power supply/soldering iron? http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=522812 Price isn't that great and all of the parts look sort of beginner-level, but the compact size is appealing. >...Velleman makes a 1A kit power supply >that is more than adequate for a lot of this kind of stuff AND has the >bonus of being real easy and fun to build. It is $12.95 from Ramsey >Electronics (www.ramsey.com). maybe http://www.ramseyelectronics.com ? The given URL advertises winches. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jul 21 11:33:16 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:33:16 -0300 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <0c9001c8eb4f$93c6eb50$160c010a@portajara> >I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am >attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the battery >compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. Is there a >safe way to remove this? Acetic Acid (vinegar - yes!) do wonders! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 11:40:58 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:40:58 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: <200807191700.m6JH0DSA039038@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4884BC1A.2090108@gmail.com> Mark Tapley wrote: > While on the > topic, has anyone any experience with the Velleman integrated DMM/Power > supply/soldering iron? > > http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=522812 The way I look at it, that's three bits of test gear that might potentially get knocked out if one of them develops a fault. I'm not a fan of x-in-one anything... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 11:47:13 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:47:13 -0500 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: <559137.30115.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <559137.30115.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4884BD91.70803@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > But none of this helps the original poster, who's asking a polite, simple > question, to a group of intelligent computer collectors. Hey, speak for yourself! ;) > And frankly, things like this make me afraid of asking simple questions > myself. Who knows when I might accidentally ask something that I should > have looked up elsewhere, or ask about something that I shouldn't be trying > to do. To be honest, I feel like nobody here should never be afraid of asking a question that might also be answered by good ol' research elsewhere. Talking about the things that we do is what keeps the hobby (and this list) alive, and there's *always* going to be questions asked that have been covered in the past. cheers Jules From trag at io.com Mon Jul 21 12:31:02 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:31:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <200807211702.m6LH2nHf071531@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807211702.m6LH2nHf071531@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <65233.209.163.133.242.1216661462.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:17:57 +0100 > From: "Liam Proven" > 2008/7/21 Jeff Walther : >> The SE/30 though, > I'm not sure *why* I want it - I have no actual use for it - but this > was the sort of spec that was to unrealistically expensive to be even > worth /dreaming/ about in 1988 or so when I first started working with > Macs. :?) Could it be mid-life crisis? Instead of buying sports cars, we're looking for the computer configurations we longed for but couldn't afford in our youths? Although, I must say, my head has been turned by the prospect of MythTV running on a shiny *new* collection of hardware. I'm seriously considering decimating my collection of old Macs and just focusing my attention on playing around with modern stuff for a few years. Of course, I want to perfect replacing the FBGA soldered memory chips in the Apple TV and use hacked ATVs as the MythTV front ends. If there's no hardware hacking, where's the fun? Jeff Walther From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jul 21 12:42:46 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:42:46 -0500 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <65233.209.163.133.242.1216661462.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200807211702.m6LH2nHf071531@dewey.classiccmp.org> <65233.209.163.133.242.1216661462.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: <4884CA96.3030103@oldskool.org> Jeff Walther wrote: > Could it be mid-life crisis? Instead of buying sports cars, we're looking > for the computer configurations we longed for but couldn't afford in our > youths? Oh hell yes. That's why I have an IBM Music Feature Card. $700 when it first came out, much cheaper now :) but nearly unobtainium. I remember being blown away by the demo more than two decades ago. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 21 12:51:21 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <65233.209.163.133.242.1216661462.squirrel@webmail.io.com> from Jeff Walther at "Jul 21, 8 12:31:02 pm" Message-ID: <200807211751.m6LHpLoM018286@floodgap.com> > Could it be mid-life crisis? Instead of buying sports cars, we're looking > for the computer configurations we longed for but couldn't afford in our > youths? I know I'm that way with classic Macs. :) :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Traditionally, most of Australia's imports come from overseas. -K. Enderbery From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jul 21 12:44:45 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend Message-ID: First, I think I speak for Jessie Jackson when I say I'm glad to hear that they will be keeping HOPE alive. With regards to Vegas, I spent more time there when I was 21 than I care to admit, but it wasn't for the gambling and sin (the true story is even wilder). I haven't been back since except for a couple short stop overs on business trips, so I'm interested to see how it's all changed. When I was going there the Bob Stupak tower was still up and they were just starting to build that big emerald glass casino, the MGM Grand I believe. I've never been to DefCon but would like to go, and it would be good justification for finally seeing modern Vegas. Back to HOPE, I attended in 2006 and it was one of those experiences where you think it was going to be lame but it completely overwhelmed your low expectations and turned into an excellent experience (like Mardi Gras in NO :) I was expecting a bunch of dorky wannabe hackers running around trying to out-impress each other with their h4x0r tricks but it was nothing of the sort: just a bunch of serious-minded people converging in the HOtel PEnnsylvania to learn and share knowledge. I highly recommend it. I would've gone this year but for my sagging bank account :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 21 13:04:57 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:04:57 -0600 Subject: Does anyone have a DEC VT100 Keyb ^H^H^H^Hterminal they can spare? In-Reply-To: <488334C8.30806@compsys.to> References: <200807181701.m6IH0dDY020885@dewey.classiccmp.org> <003c01c8e971$dbfa2840$6702a8c0@inspiron700m> <488334C8.30806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4884CFC9.8070002@jetnet.ab.ca> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> Malcolm Macleod wrote: > >> Just wondering if anyone has a VT100 keyboard they can spare for a >> reasonable price? I recently received a VT100 terminal (minus >> keyboard) and >> am keen to bring this back to life. >> >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > I have a VT100 keyboard that I can sell you at a low price. > > It looks like you are in Australia. I am in Canada, so the > shipping and handling will likely be high. > > Can you found one locally? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > > Do you have a real VT-100 terminal for a low price. Shipping is no problem , I live in Canada. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 21 13:11:10 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:11:10 -0600 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4884D13E.6030800@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >> For example, when was the first NON-COMPUTER oriented advertsing >> containing a URL? >> > > I knew the world was coming to an end when I first saw a URL on a banana. > > -- > Will > > I don't know about ... Just reading a box some thing like -- Pacific Tomato Growers... product of Florida. From madodel at ptdprolog.net Mon Jul 21 13:10:13 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:10:13 -0400 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <0c9001c8eb4f$93c6eb50$160c010a@portajara> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <0c9001c8eb4f$93c6eb50$160c010a@portajara> Message-ID: <4884D105.9030506@ptdprolog.net> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am >> attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the >> battery compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. >> Is there a safe way to remove this? > > Acetic Acid (vinegar - yes!) do wonders! Thanks, that and an awl to chip away the caked stuff worked. Now to figure out how to clear the password. Mark From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jul 21 13:17:41 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:17:41 -0300 Subject: "first" computer on the internet References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <4884D13E.6030800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0cf301c8eb5e$9ce55eb0$160c010a@portajara> >> I knew the world was coming to an end when I first saw a URL on a banana. I've seen that in worst places... :o) From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jul 21 13:21:50 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:21:50 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48845820.9030001@gmail.com> References: <0K4B000XLRPHTBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <48842AD5.5060509@brouhaha.com> <48845820.9030001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4884D3BE.20504@brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> While uucp can be run over the internet, it is fundamentally a >> store-and-forward system, and unrelated to internet protocols. Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm not sure that's relevant. I thought the discussion was about the first internet email? From evan at snarc.net Mon Jul 21 13:23:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:23:00 -0400 Subject: HOPE Conference this weekend Message-ID: <200807211824.m6LIO02m083997@keith.ezwind.net> We at MARCH were very pleased to see so many people at HOPE express interest in vintage computers. Our booth Saturday didn't feature anthing wild -- just an Osborne, a Mac 128K, and a IIe running Oregon Trail. But it was packed with excited hackers almost the entire day. -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail Subj: HOPE Conference this weekend Date: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:58 pm Size: 1K To: Classic Computers Mailing List First, I think I speak for Jessie Jackson when I say I'm glad to hear that they will be keeping HOPE alive. With regards to Vegas, I spent more time there when I was 21 than I care to admit, but it wasn't for the gambling and sin (the true story is even wilder). I haven't been back since except for a couple short stop overs on business trips, so I'm interested to see how it's all changed. When I was going there the Bob Stupak tower was still up and they were just starting to build that big emerald glass casino, the MGM Grand I believe. I've never been to DefCon but would like to go, and it would be good justification for finally seeing modern Vegas. Back to HOPE, I attended in 2006 and it was one of those experiences where you think it was going to be lame but it completely overwhelmed your low expectations and turned into an excellent experience (like Mardi Gras in NO :) I was expecting a bunch of dorky wannabe hackers running around trying to out-impress each other with their h4x0r tricks but it was nothing of the sort: just a bunch of serious-minded people converging in the HOtel PEnnsylvania to learn and share knowledge. I highly recommend it. I would've gone this year but for my sagging bank account :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 21 15:10:44 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:10:44 -0400 Subject: IBM System 360 Mod 70 info. In-Reply-To: <200807211824.m6LIO02m083997@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200807212010.m6LKAlXZ096672@keith.ezwind.net> To: anyone who can be of some help. For those who do not know me, I have a website IBMcollectables.com and am very interested in the history, use, and abuse of the IBM logo. While running down some 2070 images, I came across this press release in the computerhistory.org archive. any assistance in determining the Who, Where, and When of this photo will be appreciated. Here is a direct link to the picture.... http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/still-image/IBM/IBM_360/IBM.360.19xx.102657020.lg.jpg I have started a Mutttering, and Comments are welcome (well till the ringtone spammers find I have comments turned back on) http://ibmcollectables.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=2070-cpu&id=IBM_360_19xx_102657020_lg aka http://tinyurl.com/6bsgjq Thanks in advance. Bob Bradlee Bob at Bradlee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 21 15:18:37 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:18:37 -0700 Subject: IBM System 360 Mod 70 info Message-ID: <4884EF1D.9060002@bitsavers.org> > I came across this press release in the computerhistory.org archive. > any assistance in determining the Who, Where, and When of this photo will be appreciated. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/still-image/IBM/IBM_360/IBM.360.19xx.102657020.lg.jpg Fred Brooks press photo from the 360 product intro. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jul 21 15:55:58 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:55:58 -0500 Subject: IBM System 360 Mod 70 info In-Reply-To: <4884EF1D.9060002@bitsavers.org> References: <4884EF1D.9060002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080721155246.066d7280@mail.threedee.com> At 03:18 PM 7/21/2008, Al Kossow wrote: >Fred Brooks press photo from the 360 product intro. And today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Brooks - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 20 13:39:28 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:39:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sticky cable (was Re: UK1010 In-Reply-To: from "Roger Holmes" at Jul 21, 8 10:04:02 am Message-ID: > On a related subject, the mains cable of my UK101 has become sticky > where it has been in contact with expanded polystyrene for many > years. Has this happened to anyone else and does anyone know if this > is a chemical reaction? It might just be coincidence and maybe I I beleieve it is a chemcial reaction. I'ce heard reports of house fires caesed by expanded polystrene loft insulation in contact with power/lighting cables, the insulation on the latter having failed. Also, when uou buy a new , the mains lead is inside a plastic bag, to keep it away from the polystrenet packing. > spilt something on it and have forgotten about it. I used a large > ceiling tile to stand the machine on when I first got it so it would > not scratch the table and its been there ever since. Yes I know NOW > about static and expanded polystyrene (I think its called styrofoam > in the states), but back then all the 74 series chips I bought, came > by post pressed into bits of normal white (non antistatic) expanded It was OK for 74xx and most 74LS parts, but I'd not use it for anything MOS. And I would have thought the UK101's Processor, RAM and ROM were all MOST devices... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 21 16:54:19 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:54:19 -0700 Subject: IBM System 360 Mod 70 info In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080721155246.066d7280@mail.threedee.com> References: <4884EF1D.9060002@bitsavers.org>, <6.2.3.4.2.20080721155246.066d7280@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4884A31B.31643.15E7431@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jul 2008 at 15:55, John Foust wrote: > And today: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Brooks When "The Mythical Man-month" came out, our division GM purchased copies for all project managers and made it required reading. Who wrote ""the first 50 percent of a project takes 90 percent of the time. The remaining 50 percent of the project takes the other 90 percent of the time."? Not from TMMM, I know. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 21 17:07:25 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:07:25 -0600 Subject: IBM System 360 Mod 70 info In-Reply-To: <4884A31B.31643.15E7431@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4884EF1D.9060002@bitsavers.org>, <6.2.3.4.2.20080721155246.066d7280@mail.threedee.com> <4884A31B.31643.15E7431@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4885089D.9030503@jetnet.ab.ca> > Who wrote ""the first 50 percent of a project takes 90 percent of the > time. The remaining 50 percent of the project takes the other 90 > percent of the time."? Not from TMMM, I know. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I thought that was 10% rather than 50%. From madodel at ptdprolog.net Mon Jul 21 17:28:38 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:28:38 -0400 Subject: Any ideas on how to clear a BIOS password on a Thinkpad 701C? Message-ID: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> I'm trying to get a TP 701c I bought off of eBay working to install OS/2 Warp on. But it has a password set in the BIOS. According to the service manual ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/tpvol2.pdf there are two Power-On Password Bypass Pads on the bottom of the lower system board, but no instructions on what to do with them. Do I need to short them out? If so how? Someone else suggested desoldering the backup battery, but if I can just short two pads, that would be preferred. Right now its completely disassembled. I have two other 701c machines, but they each have their own problems. Worse case if I can't clear the password I can try to take the display off this one and put it on the 701c that has a display problem. Mark From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jul 21 18:15:22 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:15:22 -0500 Subject: Any ideas on how to clear a BIOS password on a Thinkpad 701C? In-Reply-To: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> References: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4885188A.6090303@mdrconsult.com> madodel wrote: > I'm trying to get a TP 701c I bought off of eBay working to install OS/2 > Warp on. But it has a password set in the BIOS. According to the > service manual ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/tpvol2.pdf > there are two Power-On Password Bypass Pads on the bottom of the lower > system board, but no instructions on what to do with them. Do I need to > short them out? If so how? Someone else suggested desoldering the > backup battery, but if I can just short two pads, that would be > preferred. Right now its completely disassembled. I have two other > 701c machines, but they each have their own problems. Worse case if I > can't clear the password I can try to take the display off this one and > put it on the 701c that has a display problem. This is probably peripherally helpful, at best, but an SGI Indigo2 has the same setup to clear the password. You short two solder pads on the system board. IIRC, with the Indigo2, it had to be done powered up. I just remember that the whole process made me nervous as hell. :\ Doc From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 21:51:14 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:51:14 -0400 Subject: adm3a and Linux Message-ID: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> I pulled out my ADM-3A today in an effort to stave off studying and homework and such; hooked it up to my Debian box, only to find that there isn't really very good support for it under Debian. I use this line in my inittab: T0:23:respawn:/sbin/getty -h -L ttyS0 9600 adm3a and while I can log in, vim for example looks TERRIBLE, ls tries to do color and fails miserably, etc. When I log on to one of the Solaris machines on campus via SSH, they handle things gracefully. ls works right, vi is excellent. Is the difference in our terminfo files, or what? I'm not really sure how these things work so I'm hoping somebody can help me figure out what's up here, because I'd like my Debian computer to play nicely with the terminal. Thanks John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jul 21 23:40:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:40:47 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <200807201353.59483.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200807220040.48088.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 20 July 2008 14:03, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On Jul 20, 2008, at 19:53, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Hey, anybody else out there remember fidonet? > > Most certainly! > > I dialled into a BBS to get my email, and also access to several > usenet groups. This was my internet (Internet?) access until I went to > university and got direct access via their Unix workstations at the > faculty, and a little later via dial-up shell access at home. (Still > through the university servers; public ISP's didn't surface in the > Netherlands for another year or so.) Heh. I *ran* a fido-internet gateway for a bit. And had a dialup shell account to the guy who was feeding the newsgroups as well. There were some appliance operators in those days, but everything I ran used config files that I had to edit and it was an interesting chore to get all the bits working with each other and then batch files and whatnot to tie it all together... Much more "technical" than most of my employment has been over the years, unfortunately. I was 1:270/615 when I stopped, and various other node numbers along the way. Also NC270, and moderated as many as eight echos at one time. Way too much of that stuff shows up in archives still when my last name gets punched into google. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 00:04:39 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:04:39 -0400 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4884AB83.2040802@ptdprolog.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807210814t7d62980ckc101c6c98d186050@mail.gmail.com> <4884AB83.2040802@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <200807220104.39519.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 21 July 2008 11:30, madodel wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > 2008/7/21 madodel : > >> I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am > >> attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the > >> battery compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. Is > >> there a safe way to remove this? > > > > I'd like to know too, as this has happened to my TP701C too. > > > > However, I've heard that they are /fearsome/ beasts to strip. "Motie > > engineering" was one description. True? > > I had to buy a Torx T1 driver to get the four tiny screws in the front out, > the others came out with a T6 driver that I had. I haven't attempted to > remove the main board yet, but once the screws are out it was pretty simple > to get the keyboard off. Disassembly instructions are included in > ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/tpvol2.pdf Hopefully it all > goes back together. Where did you find a T1 driver? I went looking a while back for smaller than the T10 that I had on hand, and what I ended up with were four of those hexagonal bits that fit into a magnetic handle/holder, I thiink numbers 6, 7, 8, and 9 (they're not here) and am still bumping into smaller stuff than what those will handle. But that was the smallest that the Snap-On guy had available that day on his truck... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 00:07:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:07:38 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <4884BC1A.2090108@gmail.com> References: <200807191700.m6JH0DSA039038@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4884BC1A.2090108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200807220107.38255.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 21 July 2008 12:40, Jules Richardson wrote: > Mark Tapley wrote: > > While on the > > topic, has anyone any experience with the Velleman integrated DMM/Power > > supply/soldering iron? > > > > http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=522812 > > The way I look at it, that's three bits of test gear that might potentially > get knocked out if one of them develops a fault. I'm not a fan of x-in-one > anything... Agreed! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 00:22:34 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:22:34 -0700 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <200807220104.39519.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807210814t7d62980ckc101c6c98d186050@mail.gmail.com> <4884AB83.2040802@ptdprolog.net> <200807220104.39519.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90807212222g24c19d44k73fa586a851a2a0a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Where did you find a T1 driver? > Here's one source... http://www.wihatools.com/200seri/278serie.htm From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jul 21 05:51:34 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:51:34 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet Message-ID: <0K4C00HNVRHUNEZ9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "first" computer on the internet > From: Eric Smith > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:21:09 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. > >While uucp can be run over the internet, it is fundamentally a >store-and-forward system, and unrelated to internet protocols. > >IIRC uucp was invented by Mike Lesk around 1976. > It is true that many system that didn't have connectviity to the big hub systems that formed tha backbone if DARPA-net then later ARPAnet used UUCP to pass their traffic? Allison From jrr at flippers.com Mon Jul 21 11:50:07 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:50:07 -0700 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4884BE3F.108@flippers.com> madodel wrote: > I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am > attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the > battery compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. > Is there a safe way to remove this? > > Mark > > I have a page devoted to battery leakage in games (and computers too), this information applies to both ni-cad and alkaline batteries. http://flippers.com/battery.html John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Jul 21 15:28:41 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:28:41 +0100 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4884F179.9080006@axeside.co.uk> >>>>> Could you give more information? RadioShack has made at least three >>>>> different products with that catalog number. >>>> >>>> That is all I have. Just a sticker, basically saying to use the >>>> 270-1551. >>> Okay, but.. like, does it plug into the wall? A cigarette lighter? >>> Does it take the modern "Adaptaplugs" (the ones with two pins on >>> them), the older friction-fit barrel style, or is it one of those >>> "four plugs on the end of a wire, with a 9V clip" dealies? >>> Again, usage of basic tools that anybody who is even remotely serious >>> about collecting this stuff (a $5 voltmeter) would likely answer your >>> question for you. >> >> Please, before you fill up this list with your rant at him, could you >> do Will - and the rest of us - the courtesy of reading what he wrote. > > In our defense: it wasn't clear exactly what he wanted until well into > this discussion. In fact, if you read my entire post, I was later > specifically asking exactly what he was looking for, and it was only > then that it was clear what he needed. Well, it was clear to me from the start, but since I see now that others made the same mistake I won't press the point. Unfortunately the delay between cctalk and cctech meant that I sent my message after a lot more explanation had been posted that I didn't see until later, so my remark was (literally) out of order. Ah well. Philip. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 22 01:15:12 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:15:12 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <200807220107.38255.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200807191700.m6JH0DSA039038@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4884BC1A.2090108@gmail.com>, <200807220107.38255.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48851880.19373.32901ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jul 2008 at 1:07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > The way I look at it, that's three bits of test gear that might potentially > > get knocked out if one of them develops a fault. I'm not a fan of x-in-one > > anything... > > Agreed! You can't go wrong in buying the best basic tools that you can afford. I'm still using my Weller WTCPT soldering station after more than 30 years. It's still being made--and is arguably one of the best conventional soldering irons out there. Buy a good multimeter if that's what you need. Fluke DVMs seem to be the digital version of the old Simpson 260 VOM. If I needed to save money, I'd buy either one on the used market without a second thought. It's a good idea to stay away from "Swiss Army Knife" approaches to fundamental tools. Reminds me of one of those little hammers whose handle unscrews to form a screwdriver. Makes neither a good hammer nor a good screwdriver. Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 22 01:30:30 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:30:30 -0700 Subject: IBM System 360 Mod 70 info. In-Reply-To: <200807212010.m6LKAlXZ096672@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200807212010.m6LKAlXZ096672@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200807212330.30333.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 21 July 2008, you wrote: > To: anyone who can be of some help. > > For those who do not know me, I have a website IBMcollectables.com and am > very interested in the history, use, and abuse of the IBM logo. While > running down some 2070 images, I came across this press release in the > computerhistory.org archive. any assistance in determining the Who, Where, > and When of this photo will be appreciated. > > Here is a direct link to the picture.... > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/still-image/IBM/IBM_360/IBM.36 >0.19xx.102657020.lg.jpg The "who" looks to be Fred Brooks. I'd guess the time of the photo to be June, 1964 - the announcement of the System 360. I was in the IBM Poughkeepsie lab at the time - and about monthly was in meetings with Brooks in his office. I wrote a diagnostic monitor for the first 360/40 produced and became technical manager of a team which modeled System 360 hardware and OS software. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jul 22 06:35:55 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:35:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for a GT40 keayboard Message-ID: <12179.213.169.196.228.1216726555.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi, I'm looking for a keyboard which goes with the GT-40. I do have the terminal and video processor, but to make it complete I need the keyboard as well. Thanks, Ed From bert at brothom.nl Tue Jul 22 06:59:04 2008 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:59:04 +0200 Subject: adm3a and Linux In-Reply-To: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4885CB88.3030709@brothom.nl> John Floren schreef: > I pulled out my ADM-3A today in an effort to stave off studying and > homework and such; hooked it up to my Debian box, only to find that > there isn't really very good support for it under Debian. I use this > line in my inittab: > T0:23:respawn:/sbin/getty -h -L ttyS0 9600 adm3a > and while I can log in, vim for example looks TERRIBLE, ls tries to do > color and fails miserably, etc. > When I log on to one of the Solaris machines on campus via SSH, they > handle things gracefully. ls works right, vi is excellent. > Is the difference in our terminfo files, or what? I'm not really sure > how these things work so I'm hoping somebody can help me figure out > what's up here, because I'd like my Debian computer to play nicely > with the terminal. I'm no expert on this topic, but I think you need to adapt the TERM environment variable. The curses library uses this to determine what control codes to send to your terminal to draw the screen. Regards, bert From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 07:29:26 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:29:26 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <48851880.19373.32901ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200807191700.m6JH0DSA039038@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4884BC1A.2090108@gmail.com>, <200807220107.38255.rtellason@verizon.net> <48851880.19373.32901ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4885D2A6.2010300@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's a good idea to stay away from "Swiss Army Knife" approaches to > fundamental tools. Reminds me of one of those little hammers whose > handle unscrews to form a screwdriver. Makes neither a good hammer > nor a good screwdriver. The same is probably true of computer software... and hardware... Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the way most of the world sees it. In any environment (computing or otherwise) it's getting harder to find things that do a single job only (but do it well and are built to last). But that's an OT discussion... cheers J (not quite awake yet) From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 08:05:54 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:05:54 -0400 Subject: adm3a and Linux In-Reply-To: <4885CB88.3030709@brothom.nl> References: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> <4885CB88.3030709@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <7d3530220807220605v24ddc254qde8c98af5a0480d5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 7:59 AM, Bert Thomas wrote: > John Floren schreef: >> >> I pulled out my ADM-3A today in an effort to stave off studying and >> homework and such; hooked it up to my Debian box, only to find that >> there isn't really very good support for it under Debian. I use this >> line in my inittab: >> T0:23:respawn:/sbin/getty -h -L ttyS0 9600 adm3a >> and while I can log in, vim for example looks TERRIBLE, ls tries to do >> color and fails miserably, etc. >> When I log on to one of the Solaris machines on campus via SSH, they >> handle things gracefully. ls works right, vi is excellent. >> Is the difference in our terminfo files, or what? I'm not really sure >> how these things work so I'm hoping somebody can help me figure out >> what's up here, because I'd like my Debian computer to play nicely >> with the terminal. > > I'm no expert on this topic, but I think you need to adapt the TERM > environment variable. The curses library uses this to determine what control > codes to send to your terminal to draw the screen. > > Regards, > bert > > But adapt it to what? "adm3a" doesn't seem to help. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 08:51:51 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:51:51 -0500 Subject: HK ET-1000 Trainer Message-ID: <51ea77730807220651p12fcb19cobb10142865b1f601@mail.gmail.com> Looking for some advice on the ET-1000. I think Heath trainers were discussed here not too long ago. I have an opportunity to buy one locally for what I think is a fair price. While it would be nice to own as a relic, I'd like to actually use it as well (I intend to begin an electronics curriculum in the Fall.) It seems to have the features I'd need, and I'm assured it's working properly, but is too vintage to use regularly? Would I be better off just going with some Rat Shack kit? Thanks to all -- j From ats at offog.org Tue Jul 22 08:53:27 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:53:27 +0100 Subject: adm3a and Linux In-Reply-To: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> (John Floren's message of "Mon\, 21 Jul 2008 22\:51\:14 -0400") References: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "John Floren" writes: > Is the difference in our terminfo files, or what? Probably. There aren't a lot of Debian users who need a terminfo entry for an ADM3A these days, so only the most commonly used terminal definitions are installed by default. To get the rest of them (including adm3a and variants), install the "ncurses-term" package. -- Adam Sampson From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 08:53:58 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More great moments in Craigslist ads In-Reply-To: <7A855AA5-2CCB-4133-9050-87939079D723@feedle.net> Message-ID: <382334.15669.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/ele/763947554.html ATARI 8BIT SHI* FOR SALE! ! ! - $200 (East Village) Reply to: sale-763947554 at craigslist.org Date: 2008-07-21, 2:24PM EDT ASSORTED COMPUTER GEAR THE WORKS COME AND GET IT * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 763947554 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 09:04:31 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:04:31 -0400 Subject: adm3a and Linux In-Reply-To: <4885CB88.3030709@brothom.nl> References: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> <4885CB88.3030709@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <4885E8EF.9090301@gmail.com> Bert Thomas wrote: > John Floren schreef: >> I pulled out my ADM-3A today in an effort to stave off studying and >> homework and such; hooked it up to my Debian box, only to find that >> there isn't really very good support for it under Debian. I use this >> line in my inittab: >> T0:23:respawn:/sbin/getty -h -L ttyS0 9600 adm3a >> and while I can log in, vim for example looks TERRIBLE, ls tries to do >> color and fails miserably, etc. >> When I log on to one of the Solaris machines on campus via SSH, they >> handle things gracefully. ls works right, vi is excellent. >> Is the difference in our terminfo files, or what? I'm not really sure >> how these things work so I'm hoping somebody can help me figure out >> what's up here, because I'd like my Debian computer to play nicely >> with the terminal. > > I'm no expert on this topic, but I think you need to adapt the TERM > environment variable. The curses library uses this to determine what > control codes to send to your terminal to draw the screen. No, the TERM variable just tells the system which TERMCAP/TERMINFO entry to use. You still need a proper TERMCAP or TERMINFO entry for the terminal you're using. Peace... Sridhar From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 09:23:04 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:23:04 -0400 Subject: adm3a and Linux In-Reply-To: References: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220807220723h4446c7c5n8138e711e4dc6637@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > "John Floren" writes: > >> Is the difference in our terminfo files, or what? > > Probably. There aren't a lot of Debian users who need a terminfo entry > for an ADM3A these days, so only the most commonly used terminal > definitions are installed by default. To get the rest of them > (including adm3a and variants), install the "ncurses-term" package. > > -- > Adam Sampson > Thank you Adam, that seems to have done the trick! John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From madodel at ptdprolog.net Tue Jul 22 09:32:45 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:32:45 -0400 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <200807220104.39519.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807210814t7d62980ckc101c6c98d186050@mail.gmail.com> <4884AB83.2040802@ptdprolog.net> <200807220104.39519.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 21 July 2008 11:30, madodel wrote: >> Liam Proven wrote: >>> 2008/7/21 madodel : >>>> I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am >>>> attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the >>>> battery compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. Is >>>> there a safe way to remove this? >>> I'd like to know too, as this has happened to my TP701C too. >>> >>> However, I've heard that they are /fearsome/ beasts to strip. "Motie >>> engineering" was one description. True? >> I had to buy a Torx T1 driver to get the four tiny screws in the front out, >> the others came out with a T6 driver that I had. I haven't attempted to >> remove the main board yet, but once the screws are out it was pretty simple >> to get the keyboard off. Disassembly instructions are included in >> ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/tpvol2.pdf Hopefully it all >> goes back together. > > Where did you find a T1 driver? > > I went looking a while back for smaller than the T10 that I had on hand, and > what I ended up with were four of those hexagonal bits that fit into a > magnetic handle/holder, I thiink numbers 6, 7, 8, and 9 (they're not here) > and am still bumping into smaller stuff than what those will handle. But > that was the smallest that the Snap-On guy had available that day on his > truck... > No where local, though Sears had a T6. I had to order online. I found a vendor on Amazon.com (Micro-Tools) that sold them as separate items. Most places only had sets and those rarely had lower than a T6 or T10. Mark From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jul 22 10:12:05 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:12:05 -0500 Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807210814t7d62980ckc101c6c98d186050@mail.gmail.com> <4884AB83.2040802@ptdprolog.net> <200807220104.39519.rtellason@verizon.net> <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4885F8C5.9000702@mdrconsult.com> madodel wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> >> Where did you find a T1 driver? >> >> I went looking a while back for smaller than the T10 that I had on >> hand, and what I ended up with were four of those hexagonal bits that >> fit into a magnetic handle/holder, I thiink numbers 6, 7, 8, and 9 >> (they're not here) and am still bumping into smaller stuff than what >> those will handle. But that was the smallest that the Snap-On guy had >> available that day on his truck... >> > > No where local, though Sears had a T6. I had to order online. I found > a vendor on Amazon.com (Micro-Tools) that sold them as separate items. > Most places only had sets and those rarely had lower than a T6 or T10. Dunno about a T1, but Home Despot usually has a mini-driver set that's 8 bits - 4 double-ended inserts with 3 stored in the plastic handle. They go from T4-T10 + T15, they're about 8 bucks, they look cheesy as hell, and they're GOOD bits. I have a Philips/blade set and a Torx set. IIRC they're made by Husky. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 22 10:35:52 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:35:52 -0400 Subject: UV PALs? Message-ID: <45DD2779-ECBF-441F-B40B-24297D306362@neurotica.com> Does anyone here have any UV-erasable PALs (16V8 or 22V10) that they can spare? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gstreet at indy.net Tue Jul 22 10:36:55 2008 From: gstreet at indy.net (Robert) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:36:55 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? Message-ID: <4368960.1216741015962.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I just took apart a Thinkpad 701c that has a BIOS password that I am >> attempting to clear. There is some powdery residue caked inside the >> battery compartment that has leaked into a few areas surrounding it. >> Is there a safe way to remove this? > > Acetic Acid (vinegar - yes!) do wonders! > You might consider trying to rinse the affected area with distilled water after using the vinegar. (You want to neutralize the affected area as well as possible.) Then take a hair dryer and gently dry the area. I recently found a discarded power supply that was so coated with oily, nasty, soot-like "stuff," that I decided to experiment. I disassembled everything and got my special green soap used for cleaning aircraft interiors and a brush. It worked wonders. I then rinsed the whole pcb (with components) and blew it off with compressed air. Then I dried it with a heat gun (very carefully, as this heat gun could easily ruin everything). I allowed the pcb sit for a few hours, then put it all back together and fired it up without incident. Caution: "Your mileage may vary..." Regards, Robert Greenstreet From leolists at seidkr.com Tue Jul 22 13:01:08 2008 From: leolists at seidkr.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Philip_Leonard_WV=D8T?=) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:01:08 +0000 Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards In-Reply-To: <261896.52293.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <261896.52293.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48862064.3040602@seidkr.com> How about a Heathkit H29 terminal? I have one that needs a home. Philip Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, I just acquired some VT100's, albiet without keyboards. So, now I'm looking for some VT100 keyboards - even broken or damaged ones. > > Also, I _just_ missed a Zenith Z29 terminal (newer than the Z19, with detachable keyboard), on eBay, simply because I forgot to bid before I left the house. Augh! So, I'm looking for one of those too - does anyone have one that is looking for a home? > > Also, while I'm looking for stuff, anyone have a Qbus Pertec tape drive controller that'll work in a Vax? > > Thanks guys! > > -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 13:07:17 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards In-Reply-To: <48862064.3040602@seidkr.com> Message-ID: <42152.13372.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Philip Leonard WV?T wrote: > How about a Heathkit H29 terminal? I have one that needs a > home. > > Philip Sure! That's the same terminal, just with the Heath badging. Do you have the keyboard too? I'm definitely intereseted. -Ian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jul 22 13:18:45 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:18:45 +0100 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <48862485.5060304@gjcp.net> William Donzelli wrote: > Considering it has a VF display, I can't assume anything about this, > since there is probably some sort of high voltage stuff going on in > there. And recently with a TR-606 I got at a hamfest, I found that > sometimes the power plug and battery of these types of things are not > the same. TR-606 as in the Roland drum machine? According to the circuit diagram here: http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Roland/TR-606/schematics/roland.TR-606.schem-6.gif it takes 6v either from four AA batteries, or from an external PSU, which matches with my hazy memory of them. Gordon From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 13:20:04 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards In-Reply-To: <42152.13372.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <810407.56146.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Whoops. That wasn't supposed to go to the list. I've been having all kinds of problems with Yahoo lately. If it hangs when sending a message, hitting 'Back' clears any changes you've made to the 'To:' field. I've also had issues with it hanging, then going through, resulting in sending out duplicate messages. I've even called Yahoo about it, and they are of no help. The sad thing is, that I'm actually _paying_ for Yahoo Premium email! (Yes, I know, better alternatives exist now, but ten years ago...) -Ian From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jul 22 13:17:28 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOD8/80 hardware? Message-ID: I'm passing along this request from Zbigniew Stachniak, a regualr VCF speaker and Associate Professor at York University in Toronto who also does a lot of excellent computer history research. He's looking for Microsystems International MOD8 and MOD80 hardware for some current research (see below). If you can help him, please contact him directly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:22:44 -0500 From: Zbigniew Stachniak To: Sellam Ismail Subject: Re: VCF 10.0 Sellam, It was so nice to be able to attend VCF again. It was a great event, I have met a number of interesting people -- thanks. I have briefly mentioned to you my search for Microsystems International Ltd. (MIL) MOD8 and MOD80 hardware. These are little blue boards that plugged into a backplane which is depicted on our museum's page http://www.cse.yorku.ca/museum/v_tour/artifacts/artifacts.htm The MOD8 and MOD80 hardware (as well as the MONITOR8 software and MIL cassette interface) were reasonably popular among the hobbyists in the mid 1970s. I'm looking for the MOD8/80 boards not only to supplement our museum's MIL collection but also because I need them for my current research. If you could help in finding some of these MOD8/80 boards it would be great. Best Zbigniew -- Zbigniew Stachniak Associate Professor Department of Computer Science York University 4700 Keele Street Toronto, Ontario, M3J 1P3 Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 13:29:39 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:29:39 -0400 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: <48862485.5060304@gjcp.net> References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> <48862485.5060304@gjcp.net> Message-ID: > TR-606 as in the Roland drum machine? According to the circuit diagram > here: > > it takes 6v either from four AA batteries, or from an external PSU, which > matches with my hazy memory of them. Yup, but the TR-606 wall wart is 9 VDC, yet uses 6 VDC from batteries. -- Will From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Tue Jul 22 13:34:46 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards In-Reply-To: <810407.56146.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <810407.56146.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You're not the only one having fun with Yahoo. Yahoo Groups keeps insisting on bouncing my mail. I see that they are providing evidence to Microsoft that they are properly pigheaded so the merger can proceed properly. bs On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Whoops. That wasn't supposed to go to the list. I've been having all kinds of problems with Yahoo lately. If it hangs when sending a message, hitting 'Back' clears any changes you've made to the 'To:' field. I've also had issues with it hanging, then going through, resulting in sending out duplicate messages. I've even called Yahoo about it, and they are of no help. The sad thing is, that I'm actually _paying_ for Yahoo Premium email! (Yes, I know, better alternatives exist now, but ten years ago...) > > -Ian > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jul 22 13:44:43 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:44:43 +0100 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> <48862485.5060304@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48862A9B.3030409@gjcp.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> TR-606 as in the Roland drum machine? According to the circuit diagram >> here: >> >> it takes 6v either from four AA batteries, or from an external PSU, which >> matches with my hazy memory of them. > > Yup, but the TR-606 wall wart is 9 VDC, yet uses 6 VDC from batteries. Probably just for parts commonality. There's nothing there that actually needs or even wants 9v. Gordon From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Tue Jul 22 13:46:56 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM System 360 Mod 70 info In-Reply-To: <4885089D.9030503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4884EF1D.9060002@bitsavers.org>, <6.2.3.4.2.20080721155246.066d7280@mail.threedee.com> <4884A31B.31643.15E7431@cclist.sydex.com> <4885089D.9030503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In the government it was that the last two percent of the project requirements took up fifty percent of the effort. bs On Mon, 21 Jul 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > > Who wrote ""the first 50 percent of a project takes 90 percent of the > > time. The remaining 50 percent of the project takes the other 90 > > percent of the time."? Not from TMMM, I know. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > > > I thought that was 10% rather than 50%. > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 13:51:05 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:51:05 -0400 Subject: RS Wall Wart In-Reply-To: <48862A9B.3030409@gjcp.net> References: <48821147.9060802@axeside.co.uk> <48862485.5060304@gjcp.net> <48862A9B.3030409@gjcp.net> Message-ID: > Probably just for parts commonality. There's nothing there that actually > needs or even wants 9v. Yes, the innards are not picky, but considering how finicky 606s can be, and there value on the market, the less time fooling around inside the better. -- Will From RLAAG at pacbell.net Tue Jul 22 14:11:10 2008 From: RLAAG at pacbell.net (RLAAG at pacbell.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:11:10 +0000 Subject: ADM 3 OR 3A NOT SURE AVAILIABLE Message-ID: <072220081911.16512.488630CE000318700000408022230703629B0A02D204040A0D0C0E9FBFB9BEBEB4AD@att.net> I HAVE AN ADM 3 OR 3A, NOT SURE WHICH, I THINK THAT I DON'T NEED... WHEN I USED IT YEARS AGO IT HAD SOME HORIZONTAL PULLING BUT MORE OR LESS WORKED THEN... NOW I DON'T KNOW BUT DIDN'T WANT TO TEST IT OUT... THE SCREEN HAS SOME STRANGE SPOTS APPEARING BUT THEY MIGHT BE JUST ON THE SURFACE OR MIGHT BE INSIDE LIKE THE OTHER POSTS ON HERE ABOUT THAT... I DON'T KNOW, BUT MIGHT BE GOOD FOR PARTS ANYWAY... CAN LET THIS GO FOR SHIPPING AND A LITTLE POCKET CHANGE... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 22 14:21:28 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807210814t7d62980ckc101c6c98d186050@mail.gmail.com> <4884AB83.2040802@ptdprolog.net> <200807220104.39519.rtellason@verizon.net> <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <20080722121458.C52703@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, madodel wrote: > No where local, though Sears had a T6. I had to order online. I found a > vendor on Amazon.com (Micro-Tools) that sold them as separate items. Most > places only had sets and those rarely had lower than a T6 or T10. Take a look at: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97517 They don't go down to the truly TINY sizes. Those are NOT 1/4" drive. If you have one of the Victorinox Swiss Army Knife "Cybertool"s, these bits will fit it! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 14:32:40 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:32:40 -0400 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <20080722121458.C52703@shell.lmi.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> <20080722121458.C52703@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200807221532.40797.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 July 2008 15:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, madodel wrote: > > No where local, though Sears had a T6. I had to order online. I found a > > vendor on Amazon.com (Micro-Tools) that sold them as separate items. > > Most places only had sets and those rarely had lower than a T6 or T10. > > Take a look at: > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97517 > > They don't go down to the truly TINY sizes. > Those are NOT 1/4" drive. What are they, then? That's the sort of bit that I acquired most recently, and I can either use them with my Snap-On SSDM41 (magnetic handle) or with a 1/4" nut driver if I don't mind the bit falling out all the time. Looks like a handy set, though, anyway, and I'll have to try and remember to take a look at it next time I get in there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jul 22 14:47:49 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:47:49 -0400 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> <20080722121458.C52703@shell.lmi.net> <200807221532.40797.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <18566.14693.506738.539673@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Roy" == Roy J Tellason writes: Roy> On Tuesday 22 July 2008 15:21, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Take a look at: >> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97517 >> >> They don't go down to the truly TINY sizes. Those are NOT 1/4" >> drive. Roy> What are they, then? That's the sort of bit that I acquired Roy> most recently, and I can either use them with my Snap-On SSDM41 Roy> (magnetic handle) or with a 1/4" nut driver if I don't mind the Roy> bit falling out all the time. It says "5/32 shank". Bizarre. There are some unusual bits in there. Triwing, for one. 5 pointed star -- haven't seen that before. I recently ordered a security bits set from Harbor Freight. Stuff like torx with a hole in the middle... nice to have. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 22 14:54:44 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <200807221532.40797.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> <20080722121458.C52703@shell.lmi.net> <200807221532.40797.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080722124545.K52703@shell.lmi.net> > > Take a look at: > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97517 > > They don't go down to the truly TINY sizes. > > Those are NOT 1/4" drive. On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > What are they, then? 5/32" drive / ~4mm These are the small ones. Last time that I was there, they had two different sets of 5/32" drive bits. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 22 15:29:25 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <18566.14693.506738.539673@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <4885EF8D.50604@ptdprolog.net> <20080722121458.C52703@shell.lmi.net> <200807221532.40797.rtellason@verizon.net> <18566.14693.506738.539673@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20080722132051.L52703@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, Paul Koning wrote: > It says "5/32 shank". Bizarre. Bits larger than 1/4" also exist. But 1/4" is the defacto standard. Harbor Freight has 5/16" http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95321 (including T40, T45, T50) and my 40 year old hand hammer impact wrench takes 3/8" > I recently ordered a security bits set from Harbor Freight. Stuff > like torx with a hole in the middle... nice to have. Lately they've been putting their 32 piece set and 100? piece set on sale frequently From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 22 15:35:07 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:35:07 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <0K4C00HNVRHUNEZ9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K4C00HNVRHUNEZ9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4886447B.7070606@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > It is true that many system that didn't have connectviity to the big hub systems > that formed tha backbone if DARPA-net then later ARPAnet used UUCP to pass their > traffic? Systems that were on ARPANET passed their internet email over ARPANET. There generally weren't "part time" connections to ARPANET; either a site was connected to ARPANET or it wasn't. ARPANET used leased lines. It was not uncommon for ARPANET sites to also participate in UUCP, and if they were given email with a bang path, it's possible that they would send email by UUCP that could otherwise have gone over the internet. That doesn't make UUCP a part of the internet, nor does it make UUCP email a part of internet email. Eric From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jul 22 15:40:09 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:40:09 +0100 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <20080722121458.C52703@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003301c8ec3b$22f36060$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Fred Cisin wrote: > They don't go down to the truly TINY sizes. > Those are NOT 1/4" drive. If you have one of the Victorinox Swiss > Army Knife "Cybertool"s, these bits will fit it! When I needed a T4 (or thereabouts) to dismantle a camera, I found a cheap set on that-auction-site. Less than ?5 (including P+P) got me a handle with double-ended interchangeable bits. The advantage of those is that they can reach more deeply into recessed screws than the sort you've pointed at. That said, I'd still like a set of those if I can find somewhere in the UK that sells them at a similar price. There aren't enough bits that I don't already have for me to worry too much about not having them, but you never know when those oddball bits will come in handy! Antonio From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 15:44:25 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:44:25 -0400 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <18566.14693.506738.539673@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <200807221532.40797.rtellason@verizon.net> <18566.14693.506738.539673@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200807221644.25957.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 July 2008 15:47, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Roy" == Roy J Tellason writes: > > Roy> On Tuesday 22 July 2008 15:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Take a look at: > >> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97517 > >> > >> They don't go down to the truly TINY sizes. Those are NOT 1/4" > >> drive. > > Roy> What are they, then? That's the sort of bit that I acquired > Roy> most recently, and I can either use them with my Snap-On SSDM41 > Roy> (magnetic handle) or with a 1/4" nut driver if I don't mind the > Roy> bit falling out all the time. > > It says "5/32 shank". Bizarre. I must have missed it, there's a headache out there on the fringes of my head that won't completely leave... > There are some unusual bits in there. Triwing, for one. 5 pointed > star -- haven't seen that before. Yes, that's why I considered maybe at least looking at that. > I recently ordered a security bits set from Harbor Freight. Stuff > like torx with a hole in the middle... nice to have. I know, I need to get some of those too. One place I recall using them was for an IBM external floppy drive enclosure -- though they used standard philips-head screws in some of the holes. I got them out finally and threw 'em out. :-) It'd be nice to be able to deal with them easily though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jul 22 15:58:06 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:58:06 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <0K4C00HNVRHUNEZ9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K4C00HNVRHUNEZ9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > From: Allison > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:52 AM >> From: Eric Smith >> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:21:09 -0700 >> Allison wrote: >>> I'm a bit surpirzed no one has mentioned UUCP. >> While uucp can be run over the internet, it is fundamentally a >> store-and-forward system, and unrelated to internet protocols. >> IIRC uucp was invented by Mike Lesk around 1976. > It is true that many system that didn't have connectviity to the big hub systems > that formed tha backbone if DARPA-net then later ARPAnet used UUCP to pass their > traffic? There never was a "DARPA-net". ARPA was renamed DARPA more than a decade after the ARPANET was originally created. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jul 22 16:15:49 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:15:49 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48838F8A.9080004@brouhaha.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com><48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <48838F8A.9080004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: Eric Smith > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:19 PM > Mark wrote: >> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for >> internet access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just >> LAN networking? > It certainly wasn't any Microsoft operating system. Microsoft was at > least ten years late to the party. > If you define "internet access" as "having TCP/IP", it might have been BSD > 4.1a, which included the crufty BBN TCP/IP code, and was released in 1982. > ARPANET switched from NCP to TCP/IP on January 1, 1983 ("flag day"). While BSD 4 may have had a TCP/IP implementation, the reference implementation was done on TENEX and TOPS-20 systems and Multics. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jul 22 16:19:45 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:19:45 -0500 Subject: PRINTOS MARSH CPU II+ operating instructions Message-ID: <48864EF1.2090006@jbrain.com> Someone gave me a copied copy of the PRINTOS MARSH CPU II+ Operating Instructions. I have scanned it to PDF. I do not want or need it here. So, I am happy to ship the hardcopy to someone for cost of shipping. I am happy to provide the PDF to someone who can archive it. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 21 13:32:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:32:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <200807220104.39519.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jul 22, 8 01:04:39 am Message-ID: > Where did you find a T1 driver? I am pretty sure MicroTools have a set from T1 to T6. Not cheap, but I really must get round to ordering them one day. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 21 13:41:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:41:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <48851880.19373.32901ED@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 21, 8 11:15:12 pm Message-ID: > > On 22 Jul 2008 at 1:07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > > The way I look at it, that's three bits of test gear that might potentially > > > get knocked out if one of them develops a fault. I'm not a fan of x-in-one > > > anything... > > > > Agreed! > > You can't go wrong in buying the best basic tools that you can I guess it's time for me to say again : 'I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools' > Buy a good multimeter if that's what you need. Fluke DVMs seem to be You do need a multimeter. And I'd rather have a reliable and accurate one with a few ranges than a dodgy one with every range under the sun on it. > the digital version of the old Simpson 260 VOM. In the UK, the Avo Model 8 is the classic analogue multimeter, to the extent that AVO (an acronym for Amps, Volts, Ohms, of course) is often a generic name for a multimeter. You can't go wrong buying one of those provided it's not been misused (if second-hand). > If I needed to save money, I'd buy either one on the used market > without a second thought. I bought my Fluke 85 second-hand. I didn't really need it, but when I saw a Fluke 80-series at a good price, I decided I wanted it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 21 13:36:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:36:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <200807220107.38255.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jul 22, 8 01:07:38 am Message-ID: > > > While on the > > > topic, has anyone any experience with the Velleman integrated DMM/Pow= > er > > > supply/soldering iron? > > > > > > http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=3D522812 > > > > The way I look at it, that's three bits of test gear that might potenti= > ally > > get knocked out if one of them develops a fault. I'm not a fan of x-in-= > one > > anything... > > Agreed! M. G. Scroggie, in his 'Radio Laboratory Handbook' makes a comment something like 'Versatility is useful, but beware of buying a 'jack of all trades and master of none'. Also remember that any instrument, no matter how versatile, can only be in one part of the circuit at a time'. The latter doesn't apply to soemthing like a PSU and multimeter in the same box, of course. But some of these multimeters with all sorts of odd ranges on them may look very nice, until the day when you have to measure a voltage and a frequency at the same time :-). I'd certainly not want my only multimeter in the same box as my bench PSU. The latter (if it's any good) will be heavy, but I want to be able to carry the meter around. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 22 16:32:54 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:32:54 -0700 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <200807221644.25957.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <18566.14693.506738.539673@gargle.gargle.HOWL>, <200807221644.25957.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jul 2008 at 16:44, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I know, I need to get some of those too. One place I recall using them was > for an IBM external floppy drive enclosure -- though they used standard > philips-head screws in some of the holes. I got them out finally and > threw 'em out. :-) It'd be nice to be able to deal with them easily though. The 6-lobed Torx security bits are pretty easy to come by just about anywhere. The 5-lobed Torx security bits, on the other hand, are considerably more difficult to find, though not unobtanium. Torx in the non-security version is great. I'm working on a construction project on the house and much to my surprise, I found that ceramic-coated deck screws are now made with T25 heads. Much better than the older square-drive or phillips types. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 22 16:37:25 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:37:25 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com><48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <48838F8A.9080004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48865315.2030707@brouhaha.com> Mark wrote: > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for > internet access? I wrote: > If you define "internet access" as "having TCP/IP", it might have been > BSD 4.1a, which included the crufty BBN TCP/IP code, and was released > in 1982. Rich Alderson wrote: > While BSD 4 may have had a TCP/IP implementation, the reference > implementation was done on TENEX and TOPS-20 systems and Multics. In 1982, did either TENEX or TOPS-20, as distributed, include TCP/IP? My (possibly incorrect) recollection was that TOPS-20 didn't actually ship with "built in" TCP/IP support at that time, while BSD 4.1a did. Eric From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jul 22 16:43:13 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:43:13 -0700 Subject: the "history" of the Internet/Web In-Reply-To: References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> Message-ID: > From: Dan Gahlinger > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 8:32 AM > For example, the first Cisco 2501 router to roll off the assembly lines was > in 1994. And at least in the early days, the only addressing they had was > Novell IPX. neither igrp nor ospf were there yet. (just putting things in > perspective). All right, let's review the history here. cisco Systems[1] was incorporated in 1984 by Len Bosack and Sandy Lerner, the directors respectively of the Computer Science Department Computer Facility and the Graduate School of Business Computer Facility of Stanford University; their first two employees were Kirk Lougheed, systems manager for the Electrical Engineering Department Computer Facility, and Richard Troiano, a programmer at GSB. What were their products? The MEIS (Massbus-Ethernet Interface Subsystem), a 3Mbit Ethernet for the DECSYSTEM-20 (for which Digital would not produce an Ethernet until 1988), a TCP/IP router based on SUN-1 cards in a VME chassis, and a terminal interface processor (TIP) based on the same hardware. Who were their target market? Anyone intending to build an internet linking two or more Ethernet-based local-area networks, a topology demonstrated at Xerox PARC (where Ethernet was invented) using another internetworking protocol suite called PUP (PARC Universal Packets).[2] They did this because they saw a time when the Internet would be available to any business, not just those under contract to the US Department of Defense or the US Department of Energy, and they wanted to be in place to take advantage of that with an already deployed technology. So the capabilities of the 2501 (which, if I remember correctly, originated as a product from Catalyst, a smaller competitor which cisco bought out around 1992 while I was working for them) are irrelevant to what cisco gear could do with respect to the Internet. [1] The original spelling even had a leading apostrophe: 'cisco Systems. The first part of the name is an abbreviation of "San Francisco". (Personal communication from Sandy Lerner) [2] In point of fact, the cisco router was capable of doing PUP as well as TCP/IP. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 22 16:47:09 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:47:09 -0700 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <18566.14693.506738.539673@gargle.gargle.HOWL>, <200807221644.25957.rtellason@verizon.net> <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The 6-lobed Torx security bits are pretty easy to come by just about > anywhere. The 5-lobed Torx security bits, on the other hand, are > considerably more difficult to find, though not unobtanium. If it has five lobes, I don't know what it is, but it isn't Torx. From tonym at compusource.net Tue Jul 22 16:52:39 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:52:39 GMT Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? Message-ID: <200807221752921.SM01296@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com >Sent 7/22/2008 3:21:28 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? > >On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, madodel wrote: > No where local, though Sears had a T6. I had to order online. I found a > vendor on Amazon.com (Micro-Tools) that sold them as separate items. Most > places only had sets and those rarely had lower than a T6 or T10. > I bought a set at Sears that went down to like a T3 or so - $9.99 or $14.99 for the set of 5. Tony From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jul 22 17:16:44 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:16:44 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48865315.2030707@brouhaha.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com><48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <48838F8A.9080004@brouhaha.com> <48865315.2030707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: Eric Smith > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:37 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> While BSD 4 may have had a TCP/IP implementation, the reference >> implementation was done on TENEX and TOPS-20 systems and Multics. > In 1982, did either TENEX or TOPS-20, as distributed, include TCP/IP? My > (possibly incorrect) recollection was that TOPS-20 didn't actually ship with > "built in" TCP/IP support at that time, while BSD 4.1a did. I want to say yes, but the memory has grown fuzzy. If you had an ARPANET connection you could order TOPS-20AN, and I know who did the TCP/IP work for Digital, but do I want to swear that TOPS-20AN was TCP/IP by 1982? Not really. On the other hand, TENEX, as a BB&N product, probably did, but I'll admit to speculation here. From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Jul 22 17:20:04 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:20:04 -0600 (MDT) Subject: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? Message-ID: <1216765204.48865d14dc105@www.jblaser.org> > Dunno about a T1, but Home Despot usually has a mini-driver set > that's 8 bits - 4 double-ended inserts with 3 stored in the plastic > handle. They go from T4-T10 + T15, they're about 8 bucks, they look > cheesy as hell, and they're GOOD bits. I have a Philips/blade set and a > Torx set. IIRC they're made by Husky. Doc is correct, it is a Husky brand tool, model #HD-74502T. I got mine from Lowe's for $9 about a year ago. The bits are definitely hardened, I can't begin to see any rounding on mine though they've been used a lot in the last year. The cap on the end of the handle spins like a jeweler's screwdriver, and for me at least, it works very well in one hand. - Jared From us21090 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 17:24:35 2008 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADM 3 OR 3A NOT SURE AVAILIABLE Message-ID: <513045.36795.qm@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Where are you located? Scott ----- Original Message ---- > From: "RLAAG at pacbell.net" > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:11:10 PM > Subject: ADM 3 OR 3A NOT SURE AVAILIABLE > > I HAVE AN ADM 3 OR 3A, NOT SURE WHICH, I THINK THAT I DON'T NEED... WHEN I USED > IT YEARS AGO IT HAD SOME HORIZONTAL PULLING BUT MORE OR LESS WORKED THEN... NOW > I DON'T KNOW BUT DIDN'T WANT TO TEST IT OUT... THE SCREEN HAS SOME STRANGE > SPOTS APPEARING BUT THEY MIGHT BE JUST ON THE SURFACE OR MIGHT BE INSIDE LIKE > THE OTHER POSTS ON HERE ABOUT THAT... I DON'T KNOW, BUT MIGHT BE GOOD FOR PARTS > ANYWAY... CAN LET THIS GO FOR SHIPPING AND A LITTLE POCKET CHANGE... From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jul 22 18:04:12 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:04:12 +0100 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <18566.14693.506738.539673@gargle.gargle.HOWL>, <200807221644.25957.rtellason@verizon.net> <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4886676C.3040207@gjcp.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The 6-lobed Torx security bits are pretty easy to come by just about >> anywhere. The 5-lobed Torx security bits, on the other hand, are >> considerably more difficult to find, though not unobtanium. > > If it has five lobes, I don't know what it is, but it isn't Torx. Torx-plus, and the ones with a centre pin are called "Resistorx". You also get them with the "male" side on a bolt head in both six- and five-lobe versions, the latter being used to hold certain VW brake calipers onto the hub. Gordon From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 18:14:57 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:14:57 -0400 Subject: Sun & DEC stuff in Rochester Message-ID: <7d3530220807221614q60360ed0g11de671f46d4446d@mail.gmail.com> I'm trying to get rid of some stuff I'm not using, so if anybody wants to come and get it... I'm open to deals, trades, and negotiation on everything. Sun Ultra 10, 440 Mhz, 256 MB RAM, 9 GB drive. I'd like a little cash ($20?) or booze in exchange for this. Sun Ultra 1, 175Mhz (?), 64 MB RAM, 9 GB hard drive. Trade for beer? 20" Sun monitor, 13w3. Take it for $5 or I'll throw it in with either of the Sun boxes Sun Type 5 keyboard & mouse to go with either of the computers. DEC Multia, Alpha processor @ 166Mhz, 64 MB of RAM, no hard disk. $10? and finally Cisco 7505 router w/ 4 fiber Fast Ethernet ports and FDDI interface. I have tested it, I know it boots. $75 (I feel the need for compensation after hauling this around for 2 years) John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 22 18:23:04 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:23:04 -0700 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48860968.23377.6D60BFB@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jul 2008 at 14:47, Eric Smith wrote: > If it has five lobes, I don't know what it is, but it isn't Torx. You've obviously not run into these, you lucky fellow: http://www.toolwarehaus.com/STAR%20TORX.asp But it's Torx, by gosh. Sometimes called Torx-IPR. Still under patent protection; some vendors (e.g. Wiha) insist on a note from your mother before they'll sell them to you. Reminds me of when Torx first came out. You had to purchase the Torx tools from Textron--good stuff, but very very pricey. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 22 18:32:32 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:32:32 -0700 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <48860968.23377.6D60BFB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> <48860968.23377.6D60BFB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48866E10.8070108@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You've obviously not run into these, you lucky fellow: You and Gordon are right, I hadn't heard of Torx Plus or had the misfortune to encounter any. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 21:18:34 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:18:34 -0400 Subject: Experience with ECB bus? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 5:17 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: Experience with ECB bus? > > Hi > > I am designing an ECB bus backplane for my N8VEM SBC project and am > looking for some peer review prior to going to manufacturing of these > PCBs. The N8VEM SBC seems to be working out alright. About a half dozen > people have successfully built the SBC so now it is time to start thinking > about peripheral expansion. > > Although the N8VEM SBC uses the ECB bus for expansion, I have not ever > used ECB bus machines as they are common in Europe but extremely rare in > the US. I have made an ECB bus backplane prototype using prototype boards > and it works well enough so I think the basic concept is sound. > > However, I would like to make this ECB backplane as common and general as > possible so other hobbyists can use it not just N8VEM SBC builders. I > would really like to avoid any inadvertent N8VEM unique extensions. > > If you have experience with ECB bus based machines, I would like to hear > your comments and suggestions. > > So far, the ECB bus backplane has six DIN 41612 connectors. All 96 pins > are routed. Pins for IEI/IEO have jumper pads per connector to allow > usage of Zilog peripheral interrupt priority scheme. The backplane has > its own Vcc and Gnd, including a power switch and LED power indicator. > > The PCB is 2 layer to keep costs low. Each side has a ground fill zone > for a low impedance ground. I will be using the double thick PCB material > (3.2 mm) for rigidity and the double weight copper trace for low > impedance. > > Vcc and ground traces are triple wide (51 mils) minimum and also routed on > both the component and copper sides of the board. The rest of the traces > are the usual 17 mils wide. > > After I order some of these backplanes, I will make them available in a > similar fashion as the N8VEM SBC. The PCBs will be available for $20 each > plus shipping. The builder will have to source the rest of the parts. > > If you are interested in helping or have questions, please review the PCB > backplane design at: > > http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/files?&sort=rdate > > There are two recently uploaded PDF files containing the schematic and the > PCB layout. > > Thanks in advance for any *constructive* feedback. Have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch [AJL>] Hi All, Well, it seems like no one has experience with the ECB bus which rather surprises me as I am sure there are many people on this list from Europe and/or the UK. If there is anyone with PCB design experience who could review my design, I would appreciate it. The PCB will run at around 4 MHz and some may take it as high as 10 MHz. The N8VEM SBC runs at 4 MHz so that is my desired operating speed but I cannot rule out people modifying their SBCs to run faster. Specifically, I am concerned about using the extensive ground fill zones and also the ground and VCC traces are on both the copper and component sides of the PCB. Even though the PCB is small, am I causing potential ground loops with excessive traces? I am trying very hard to make low impedance paths to ground and also allow sufficient low impedance current carrying capacity for VCC. I suspect the fully loaded ECB bus would draw maybe an amp or two on the VCC rail. The worst case for the N8VEM SBC is about 500 mA or so and much less if CMOS components are used. If anyone could help, I would much appreciate it. The ECB is a rather uncommon bus in the US but was used extensively in home brew computer projects in Europe. The ECB bus is a natural extension of the Z80 and is very nice to work with not to mention extremely affordable compared to S-100 or STD since you can make your own inexpensive peripherals with a cheap prototype board ($5) and a DIN 41612 connector ($3). My N8VEM SBC project uses the ECB bus and will plug into the ECB backplane when it is available. I will be selling the ECB backplane connector PCBs to anyone interested in the same manner as the SBC PCBs are available. You can see additional details at the N8VEM website: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 21:58:42 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:58:42 -0400 Subject: more adm3 stuff Message-ID: <7d3530220807221958v507cd957g1fd165c9a343aa81@mail.gmail.com> The ADM-3A seems to be working ok now, but I really notice the high-pitched whine of the CRT. It's waaaay up at the upper limit of hearing and not very loud but it IS extremely piercing. To the point where I think it is causing headaches. Do you guys know any good fixes for that kind of thing, or am I cursed to hearing that terrible head-numbing whine forever? John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 22:14:36 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:14:36 -0500 Subject: more adm3 stuff In-Reply-To: <7d3530220807221958v507cd957g1fd165c9a343aa81@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220807221958v507cd957g1fd165c9a343aa81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Some varnish or 'coil dope' on the deflection yoke may help. Could also be coming from the flyback transformer... Randy > Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:58:42 -0400 > From: slawmaster at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: more adm3 stuff > > The ADM-3A seems to be working ok now, but I really notice the > high-pitched whine of the CRT. It's waaaay up at the upper limit of > hearing and not very loud but it IS extremely piercing. To the point > where I think it is causing headaches. Do you guys know any good fixes > for that kind of thing, or am I cursed to hearing that terrible > head-numbing whine forever? > > John > -- > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jul 22 23:20:37 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more adm3 stuff Message-ID: John Floren queried: > Do you guys know any good fixes for that kind of thing, or am I cursed > to hearing that terrible head-numbing whine forever? No, just until you're about in your mid-30s or so. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 09:06:26 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:06:26 -0500 Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE? In-Reply-To: <65233.209.163.133.242.1216661462.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200807211702.m6LH2nHf071531@dewey.classiccmp.org> <65233.209.163.133.242.1216661462.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: well, the drive is shot, i pulled an external out of storage and got an immediate boot. i tried to clean the heads, tried bending it back into place, nothing. so im seeking out a new drive. and as to the other comment, for me its a quarter-life crisis ;D On 7/21/08, Jeff Walther wrote: > >> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:17:57 +0100 >> From: "Liam Proven" > >> 2008/7/21 Jeff Walther : >>> The SE/30 though, > >> I'm not sure *why* I want it - I have no actual use for it - but this >> was the sort of spec that was to unrealistically expensive to be even >> worth /dreaming/ about in 1988 or so when I first started working with >> Macs. :?) > > Could it be mid-life crisis? Instead of buying sports cars, we're looking > for the computer configurations we longed for but couldn't afford in our > youths? > > Although, I must say, my head has been turned by the prospect of MythTV > running on a shiny *new* collection of hardware. I'm seriously > considering decimating my collection of old Macs and just focusing my > attention on playing around with modern stuff for a few years. > > Of course, I want to perfect replacing the FBGA soldered memory chips in > the Apple TV and use hacked ATVs as the MythTV front ends. If there's no > hardware hacking, where's the fun? > > Jeff Walther > > > > From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Jul 22 09:38:39 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:38:39 +0200 Subject: adm3a and Linux In-Reply-To: <4885CB88.3030709@brothom.nl> References: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> <4885CB88.3030709@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <4885F0EF.7020007@iais.fraunhofer.de> Bert Thomas schrieb: > John Floren schreef: >> I pulled out my ADM-3A today in an effort to stave off studying and >> homework and such; hooked it up to my Debian box, only to find that >> there isn't really very good support for it under Debian. I use this >> line in my inittab: >> T0:23:respawn:/sbin/getty -h -L ttyS0 9600 adm3a >> and while I can log in, vim for example looks TERRIBLE, ls tries to do >> color and fails miserably, etc. >> When I log on to one of the Solaris machines on campus via SSH, they >> handle things gracefully. ls works right, vi is excellent. >> Is the difference in our terminfo files, or what? I'm not really sure >> how these things work so I'm hoping somebody can help me figure out >> what's up here, because I'd like my Debian computer to play nicely >> with the terminal. > > I'm no expert on this topic, but I think you need to adapt the TERM > environment variable. The curses library uses this to determine what > control codes to send to your terminal to draw the screen. Actually, he sets the TERM variable; that's what the 'adm3a' in the getty line above is supposed to do. This will then by exported to the login shell. I rather think the problem is that contemporary linux versions attempt to be clever, in running additional /etc/profile or /etc/login.csh etc. files which nowadays no longer have any clue that one might connect through a rather dumb terminal. I have seen such profile files that simple replace whatever setting there is with its own idea (TERM=linux, TERM=ansi) or alike, without any further check. Knowledge about former best practices have largely degraded with modern Linux use - who the heck will run anything below KDE on 1920x1600 in 4M-color modes anyway? ;-( The advice is correct: check what TERM, LANG, LC_* etc. will tell you, and be sure that it will fall back to 7 bit ASCII modes (not UTF). I have also seen some "color ls" which implicitly assumes ANSI colors without checking the terminal. Yet, even with this, it has been an eternal problem that termcap/terminfo settings were and are grossly buggy and untested; so depending on the terminal settings and the used curses/ncurses version, the few codes for an adm3a may no longer be sufficient to display even a modest vi correctly, leave alone such great implementations (not!) of text windowing software which imply PC line drawing characters >0x80 (it might already be ncurses that is the culprit). -- Holger From malcolm at avitech.com.au Tue Jul 22 17:18:38 2008 From: malcolm at avitech.com.au (Malcolm Macleod) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:18:38 +1000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 59, Issue 19 In-Reply-To: <200807221702.m6MH1mpk087693@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807221702.m6MH1mpk087693@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <013f01c8ec48$e436dba0$6602a8c0@inspiron700m> Thanks Jerome, I mailed you off-list, not sure if my response reached you though? I haven't had any luck finding one locally in Australia, so I am very interested in getting hold of the one you have. I will be in the U.S. for the next few weeks (Seattle), so postage/packing charges shouldn't be quite so much of a problem. Regards, Malcolm. Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> Malcolm Macleod wrote: > >> Just wondering if anyone has a VT100 keyboard they can spare for a >> reasonable price? I recently received a VT100 terminal (minus >> keyboard) and >> am keen to bring this back to life. >> >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > I have a VT100 keyboard that I can sell you at a low price. > > It looks like you are in Australia. I am in Canada, so the shipping > and handling will likely be high. > > Can you found one locally? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jul 23 02:01:35 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:01:35 +0100 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <48866E10.8070108@brouhaha.com> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> <48860968.23377.6D60BFB@cclist.sydex.com> <48866E10.8070108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4886D74F.2010605@gjcp.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> You've obviously not run into these, you lucky fellow: > > You and Gordon are right, I hadn't heard of Torx Plus or had the > misfortune to encounter any. > Sorry Jay for the OT car stuff, but it may be worth pointing out that VW was also where I first saw those 12-lobe spline heads, where the bolt head looks like the inside of a socket - that was on an '84 Passat. They really don't want non-VW people opening things up. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jul 23 02:03:29 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:03:29 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4886D7C1.7010605@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > The latter doesn't apply to soemthing like a PSU and multimeter in the > same box, of course. But some of these multimeters with all sorts of odd > ranges on them may look very nice, until the day when you have to measure > a voltage and a frequency at the same time :-). Aha, but since they're usually less than a tenner, you buy two or even three at the outset. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 02:31:44 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 03:31:44 -0400 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4886D74F.2010605@gjcp.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> <48860968.23377.6D60BFB@cclist.sydex.com> <48866E10.8070108@brouhaha.com> <4886D74F.2010605@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4886DE60.6000302@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> You've obviously not run into these, you lucky fellow: >> >> You and Gordon are right, I hadn't heard of Torx Plus or had the >> misfortune to encounter any. >> > > Sorry Jay for the OT car stuff, but it may be worth pointing out that VW > was also where I first saw those 12-lobe spline heads, where the bolt > head looks like the inside of a socket - that was on an '84 Passat. They > really don't want non-VW people opening things up. That's not really a spline-head. It's triple-square. The cut angles are 90-degrees. They're all over the place on my Audi. They use them, not to make them difficult to remove by non-VAG personnel, but because they are capable of taking a truly enormous amount of torque before camming out. Makes them great for suspension and brake parts. You can get a set of sockets for them for about $10. Peace... Sridhar From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jul 23 03:54:49 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:54:49 +0100 Subject: [personal] RE: Experience with ECB bus? References: Message-ID: <002901c8eca1$c4143e90$961ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Lynch" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:18 AM Subject: [personal] RE: Experience with ECB bus? >> Vcc and ground traces are triple wide (51 mils) minimum and also routed >> on >> both the component and copper sides of the board. The rest of the traces >> are the usual 17 mils wide. >> >> After I order some of these backplanes, I will make them available in a >> similar fashion as the N8VEM SBC. The PCBs will be available for $20 >> each >> plus shipping. The builder will have to source the rest of the parts. >> >> If you are interested in helping or have questions, please review the PCB >> backplane design at: >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/files?&sort=rdate >> >> Thanks in advance for any *constructive* feedback. Have a nice day! >> >> Andrew Lynch > [AJL>] Hi, just seen the post, I do pcb design for a living so here goes. I presume the file is "printing backplane-brd.pdf". If you have Gerber output I can view them directly and check hole/pad sizes as the DIN connector hole to pad size looks to have big (oversize) holes. I read you spec as - 2oz (70um) Cu, 3.2mm. 50thou track @ 1oz is good for 3.5A, 2oz 7A, Etc. 10thou track will handle 0.5A @ 1oz etc. Comments - What is the plane to pad/track gap ? Around the end connectors there are "fingers" of plane around the B row of the connector, try altering the plane cut-out / limits / flood to remove these as they will serve no great useful purpose. The ground thermals are too wide, the thermal will not serve as a thermal due to the width. Go one way or the other - reduce the width and set them at 45deg and you should get all 4 legs in, or make them solid. Each ground thermal has a tiny (<10thou ?) routing "connection" presumably for the net connection, try routing this over the actual thermal leg. The mounting holes need not be isolated if your ground is at chassis, if not you may need insulating washers under the screws. Add identification text in the planes, name board # etc in small text, does not detract too much from the functionality. Could set the planes supply one side and ground the other, sandwiched planes work better. However I would probably split the planes horizontally at about pin 2, and make the area above pin 2 all supply plane, and the rest ground plane. If you wanted you could then add decoupling on the board for each connector. Tracking to the indicator LED can be much smaller 10thou would be Ok. Add a solder mask for both sides, should not add to the cost especially if you use a company like PCB Train http://www.pcbtrain.co.uk/ (for UK and Europe, must be something like this in the US), makes soldering a lot easier, and it looks just that bit more "professional". A lot there but all offered constructively. At 4 - 10 Mhz a double sided board will not be noticeably better for more or less plane, 4 layer would be better but I do realise the cost implication. What sort of current is drawn by each board ?. If you agree I'd like to see Gerbers, mail me direct, I'll destroy them after. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 07:26:14 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more adm3 stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <553679.37242.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > The ADM-3A seems to be working ok now, but I really > notice the > > high-pitched whine of the CRT. It's waaaay up at > the upper limit of > > hearing and not very loud but it IS extremely > piercing. To the point > > where I think it is causing headaches. Do you guys > know any good fixes > > for that kind of thing, or am I cursed to hearing that > terrible > > head-numbing whine forever? I haven't had an ADM3 do that, but I have had it happen on Wyse 75's a lot. Use a short legnth of tubing as a stethoscope, and see what component is actually creating the noise. It could be a transformer or a coil that's resonating (check the deflection yoke), or the horizontal frequency might be running just a bit off (usually will cause picture tearing and instability). On the Wyse terminals, it was typically a small transformer on the monitor board - the laminations had started to come loose. Crimping the case back together and wedging toothpicks in it quieted them. Those terminals were sometimes _really_ loud and annoying! Or, get an iPod with earbuds, and blast heavy metal music until you can no longer hear those frequencies. -Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 07:37:34 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:37:34 -0500 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4886DE60.6000302@gmail.com> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> <48860968.23377.6D60BFB@cclist.sydex.com> <48866E10.8070108@brouhaha.com> <4886D74F.2010605@gjcp.net> <4886DE60.6000302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4887260E.2060305@gmail.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > That's not really a spline-head. It's triple-square. The cut angles > are 90-degrees. They're all over the place on my Audi. Hmm, ISTR coming across them on Fords as well... > camming out. Makes them great for suspension and brake parts. You can > get a set of sockets for them for about $10. Non-OT: it always seems to be worth buying a set when it comes to things like this and gambling on needing at least one other size at some point down the line. Individual "specialist" tools always seem to have a huge mark-up... Trouble is, at least back in the UK, the walk-in stores often only carry the individual tools; sets have to be ordered online, which is no use when you need it right away... cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 23 08:23:55 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what happens when a Tandem NonStop stops Message-ID: <200807231323.m6NDNtSq014148@floodgap.com> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Designed-For-Reliability.aspx Those of you who find the Tandem NonStops fascinating will enjoy this story of when this particular Tandem NonStop does in fact stop (due, of course, to human failings). Highlights: in-memory patching and repair guy hits the wrong switch. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Police To Begin Campaign To Run Down Jaywalkers ------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 23 11:24:59 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4886D74F.2010605@gjcp.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net>, <4885EF96.3873.67130FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> <48860968.23377.6D60BFB@cclist.sydex.com> <48866E10.8070108@brouhaha.com> <4886D74F.2010605@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20080723092029.I98900@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > was also where I first saw those 12-lobe spline heads, where the bolt > head looks like the inside of a socket - that was on an '84 There are numerous similar looking fasteners Double hex Triple-square (76 Honda head bolts) 12 spline A flank drive 12 point socket will work on almost all of them. But, get the right tool, particularly if you ever expect to do it again. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 23 12:24:49 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:24:49 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for internet > access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN > networking? I'm fairly sure WfW had TCP/IP. > OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for IBM's ISP as well as > a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released in 1994, but not a full TCP/IP > stack until Warp Connect in 1995. I assume Unix, Linux, AppleOS or AmigaOS > must have had this prior to that? Unix and Linux, yes. MacOS didn't have built in TCP/IP until MacOS 8 in 1997. Apple had a long history of resistance to reason. It seemed that for most of its history on Macs, TCP/IP was encapsulated in AppleTalk packets, even when run over Ethernet, which required that you have a gateway to strip the TCP/IP out of the AppleTalk. Of course the gateway software was neither free, nor did it ship with the TCP/IP software. Even if you had software to direct TCP/IP over a modem, it probably wouldn't do TCP/IP over Ethernet without AppleTalk encapsulation. Trying to tie a Mac into a TCP/IP over Ethernet network used to be an exercise in frustration. Here at the lab in the late 80s we used to localtalk the Macs together and have a single localtalk to TCP/IP over Ethernet gateway. It was slow, but it worked and didn't require as much setup and software on each individual Mac. I assume that AmigaOS was essentially static in the mid90s. The late 80s versions had no networking included that I'm aware of. At least for a PC under DOS, free packet drivers with TCP/IP were available even if it wasn't included with the OS. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 22 10:13:00 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:13:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4887260E.2060305@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 23, 8 07:37:34 am Message-ID: > Non-OT: it always seems to be worth buying a set when it comes to things like > this and gambling on needing at least one other size at some point down the > line. Individual "specialist" tools always seem to have a huge mark-up... The other reason is that if you need one size of such a tool, you'll use it to get the cover off and then find some other size of the same type of tool is needed to go further. Been there, done that :-) > > Trouble is, at least back in the UK, the walk-in stores often only carry the > individual tools; sets have to be ordered online, which is no use when you Odd... I find the reverse. Plenty of places will sell me a set of spanners, finding a shop that will sell an idividual spanner is a lot harder. The problem with ets is that they don't always include every size. Most UK-sets of inch-size Allen keys do not include 9/64", which is a stnadard size for a small UNX bold. You'll have 'fun' dismantling an ASR33 or getting the backplane out of a PDP11/45 without one. And how many UK spanner sets include 11/32 A/F? An open-ended spanner of that size is esential for getting the PSU panel out of an HP9810 or 9820. I did manage to get one from a good local tool shop, it was _very_ expensive, but excellent quality (and worth it to restore an old HP machine...) > need it right away... -tony From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 12:41:04 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:41:04 +0100 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <575131af0807231041y22098a58if962e33d33bd67a4@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/23 Eric J Korpela : >> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for internet >> access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN >> networking? > > I'm fairly sure WfW had TCP/IP. Optional extra, downloaded from MS, for 3.1. Built in to 3.11 but only a 16-bit DOS stack; the 32-bit protect-mode stack came later. Only ran over LANs, couldn't do dialup; IE included its own dialup stack licences in from Shiva. > Unix and Linux, yes. MacOS didn't have built in TCP/IP until MacOS 8 > in 1997. OpenTransport came in with MacOS 7.6, I think in '96 or so. Before that, 7.5 came with MacTCP, which was available back to System 6. I have a Classic II running it. > Trying to tie a Mac into a TCP/IP over Ethernet > network used to be an exercise in frustration. Here at the lab in the > late 80s we used to localtalk the Macs together and have a single > localtalk to TCP/IP over Ethernet gateway. It was slow, but it worked > and didn't require as much setup and software on each individual Mac. I used to get it working without too much trouble. IPX for Novell, too. > I assume that AmigaOS was essentially static in the mid90s. The late > 80s versions had no networking included that I'm aware of. 3.5 and 3.9 came with bundled 3rd party stacks, I believe. Dialup only, though. > At least for a PC under DOS, free packet drivers with TCP/IP were > available even if it wasn't included with the OS. The MS Workgroup Client did TCP/IP and was a free download and bundled on the CD with NT Server from 3.1, the first version, in 1993. I still use it today for Ghosting PCs. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 22 10:02:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:02:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: know where I can get a 800k drive for a mac SE?t In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at Jul 22, 8 09:06:26 am Message-ID: > > well, the drive is shot, i pulled an external out of storage and got Assuming you connected the external drive as an external, then surely the problem _could_ be the drive select logic on the processor board? > an immediate boot. i tried to clean the heads, tried bending it back > into place, nothing. so im seeking out a new drive. and as to the Well, after bending any part of the head assembly, I think it is safe to assume the drive is 'shot'. But before that there was a good chance it could have been repaired. -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 12:47:51 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:47:51 -0400 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <4886676C.3040207@gjcp.net> References: <4884953A.2070501@ptdprolog.net> <4886555D.2030304@brouhaha.com> <4886676C.3040207@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200807231347.53343.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 July 2008 19:04, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> The 6-lobed Torx security bits are pretty easy to come by just about > >> anywhere. The 5-lobed Torx security bits, on the other hand, are > >> considerably more difficult to find, though not unobtanium. > > > > If it has five lobes, I don't know what it is, but it isn't Torx. > > Torx-plus, and the ones with a centre pin are called "Resistorx". You > also get them with the "male" side on a bolt head in both six- and > five-lobe versions, the latter being used to hold certain VW brake > calipers onto the hub. I've run across those somewhere else, too, though I can't remember where at the moment. *Very* frustrating to try and deal with, and I don't recall now whether I ended up drilling them out or what... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 12:56:09 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:56:09 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <488770B9.3020402@gmail.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: >> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for internet >> access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN >> networking? > > I'm fairly sure WfW had TCP/IP. But wasn't an OS. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 23 13:09:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:09:24 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: References: , <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net>, Message-ID: <48871164.20152.94706C@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jul 2008 at 10:24, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for > internet > > access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN > > networking? > > I'm fairly sure WfW had TCP/IP. Depends on what you'd call an "Operating System", I suppose. WFWG was built on DOS, couldn't run without it. Network support wasn't "built in", by any means, but offered as a standard component of WFWG. NT 3.1 perhaps? I've still got a system or two that run MSLANMAN--add TCP/IP support and you've got one big memory hog, though, particularly on an 8088- class system. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 13:24:19 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:24:19 -0400 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <48871164.20152.94706C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48871164.20152.94706C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200807231424.19635.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 23 July 2008 14:09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Jul 2008 at 10:24, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for > > > > internet > > > > > access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN > > > networking? > > > > I'm fairly sure WfW had TCP/IP. > > Depends on what you'd call an "Operating System", I suppose. WFWG > was built on DOS, couldn't run without it. Network support wasn't > "built in", by any means, but offered as a standard component of > WFWG. > > NT 3.1 perhaps? > > I've still got a system or two that run MSLANMAN--add TCP/IP support > and you've got one big memory hog, though, particularly on an 8088- > class system. I found it much easier to load a crynwyr (sp?) driver for my card, and use the ftp client from the NCSA telnet package. There was one other ftp client I got later that turned out to be a good bit faster, but I don't recall how that package was called, just ftp followed by some number... Worked well on my BBS machine to get things into and out of it when the rest of the LAN were boxes running linux, though I had to get out of desqview to do that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 23 13:38:50 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:38:50 -0700 Subject: "first" computer on the internet In-Reply-To: <200807220040.48088.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200807201353.59483.rtellason@verizon.net> <200807220040.48088.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Heh. I *ran* a fido-internet gateway for a bit. And had a dialup shell > account to the guy who was feeding the newsgroups as well. Ahh the joys of email gateways. In 86 or so I had an account on a FIDO (node 121/1 I think) that also did UUCP. At work I had an email account on a VAX that was on HEPNET. One of the joys of the time was seeing how many mail gateways you could go through... The easy way to forward my work email to my FIDO account was to go HEPNET to SMTP to UUCP. I don't have it here but and I'm sure I've got the gateway names wrong and I'm missing UUCP nodes MAILGATE::smtp%"ucbvax!three!other!systems!fido121!korpela at gateway.dec.com". Yes, open forwarding of email was a necessary thing. And yes, I had to route mail through Massachusetts and California to get it from Stoughton, WI to Madison, WI. At least I didn't find an easier route. You could waste days thinking about how to mail someone or how they could mail you. When I came to Berkeley, I was still on HEPNET (BKYAST::KORPELA) and through the bitnet gateway my address was korpela%bkyast at ucbjade. BKYAST had multinet with SMTP installed so I got my first real smtp address (korpela at bkyast.berkeley.edu) in 1988. That's why I'm still considered a newbie. Or was it some other VMS TCP/IP package? Outgoing SMTP was addressed as PONY%"user at node.domain.edu". Pony express? Eric From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jul 23 15:43:03 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:43:03 +0000 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <575131af0807231041y22098a58if962e33d33bd67a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807231041y22098a58if962e33d33bd67a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 06:41:04PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > 2008/7/23 Eric J Korpela : > >> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for internet > >> access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN > >> networking? > > > > I'm fairly sure WfW had TCP/IP. > > Optional extra, downloaded from MS, for 3.1. Built in to 3.11 but only > a 16-bit DOS stack; the 32-bit protect-mode stack came later. Only ran > over LANs, couldn't do dialup; IE included its own dialup stack > licences in from Shiva. My recollection from 1995 is having to download a package direct from MS to use TCP/IP with WfW 3.11, but perhaps that was just clients and the stack was built-in. I never did TCP/IP dialup directly from a Windows box - I always had something "smarter" between me and the phone (like a "WebRamp", OS/68K- based dial-up appliance). > > Unix and Linux, yes. MacOS didn't have built in TCP/IP until MacOS 8 > > in 1997. > > OpenTransport came in with MacOS 7.6, I think in '96 or so. Before > that, 7.5 came with MacTCP, which was available back to System 6. I > have a Classic II running it. I don't recall specifics, but given those version numbers, I think we must have been running MacTCP on the first Macs I used that weren't using Localtalk-only. > > Trying to tie a Mac into a TCP/IP over Ethernet > > network used to be an exercise in frustration. Here at the lab in the > > late 80s we used to localtalk the Macs together and have a single > > localtalk to TCP/IP over Ethernet gateway. It was slow, but it worked > > and didn't require as much setup and software on each individual Mac. > > I used to get it working without too much trouble. I don't recall any specific troubles hanging a Mac off of a TCP/IP network in 1995-1996. We definitely did not have any gateway boxes (like Gatorboxes I saw at other facilities). We configured the static addresses and DNS servers right on the Macs (all of which had internal Ethernet interfaces, of course, NuBus for most, PDS slots for some). This was with at least one PowerMac (8100/av) and a wad of IIcs, FWIW. We didn't have any compact or B&W Macs around by 1995. > > I assume that AmigaOS was essentially static in the mid90s. The late > > 80s versions had no networking included that I'm aware of. > > 3.5 and 3.9 came with bundled 3rd party stacks, I believe. Dialup only, though. The initial versions of AmigaDOS (1.0 for the A1000, 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3 for the A500 and A2000), did not have any sort of networking support from C=, but I think there were a few products from third parties one could buy. I don't remember them being very popular. By the late 1980s or very early 1990s, C= released docs on "SANA2", Standard Amiga Network Architecture, but for a number of years, there wasn't much out there to take advantage of it. Long after LAN networking was available for most contemporary desktops, it finally came to the Amiga. The SANA2 spec was more about the low-level interface between your hardware and the lowest layer of your networking stack - not quite wire-level protocol, but it was more of a standard API than anything, with the intention that you could insert some NIC-independence into the network stack. There's a tale I remember running across back in the day that dave Haynie repeatedly designed in a twisted-pair Arcnet interface based on, IIRC, the COM20020 chip (or something close) with an RS-485 media layer, but higher-ups equally repeatedly forced him to delete it. I don't know if that hardware was ever built, but I did acquire some samples and _almost_ built it. It was probably around 1991 or so, long enough ago that there might still be some debates on comp.sys.amiga.* about it and what sort of network stack to put above it. By the early-to-mid-1990s, C= came out with a less-than-universally-popular SANA2-compliant network stack and application set to share drives and printers and such. I even resold a few copies, bought from a former C= employee (Dale Luck?) who got a license to resell it himself. I think I probably have 10-15 unsold copies in the original envelopes, lying around the house. By about 1994 or so, TCP/IP networking did come to the Amiga, first for developers only and for the A2065 LANCE-chipset-based Ethernet card, then for anything with a SANA2 driver. I did get a copy of that after I bought a used A2065, but eventually, there were other stacks from other sources, like MIAMI, that would also do dialup. IIRC, MIAMI isn't SANA2, but does have drivers for all the popular ethernet cards and for dialup. I started manufacturing the GG2 Bus+ right around this time. The most popular ISA card to use was an NE2000 with its SANA2 driver and one of the TCP/IP stacks (serial and printer cards were another common use, but Ethernet dominated the interests of the buyers). Since I charged $100-$125 for a GG2 Bus+, and you could add a $20-$45 Ethernet card, it did take up two slots, but it was _much_ cheaper than an A2065. There were also drivers for WD/SMC 8013 cards and at least one other type of ISA 10Mbps card, but that solution really lost popularity when some of the accelerator cards included 10/100 NICs onboard. There was only ever one 10/100 NIC I know of for the ISA bus, an obscure and expensive one from 3Com, so GG2 Bus+ sales pretty much dried up after 1997. > > At least for a PC under DOS, free packet drivers with TCP/IP were > > available even if it wasn't included with the OS. > > The MS Workgroup Client did TCP/IP and was a free download and bundled > on the CD with NT Server from 3.1, the first version, in 1993. I still > use it today for Ghosting PCs. I use free TCP/IP with 8-bit machines all the time - MS-Kermit on top of a packet driver. I use it to telnet around various machines in my house, and to move files to/from my PC-based EPROM burner. The burner _can't_ go in a modern machine (proprietary 8-bit ISA parallel interface card), so the fastest machine I've used for that is a Compaq laptop and docking station (for the burner card and the NIC). I've also used this same software arrangement with a dual-floppy Zenith laptop and a Xircom pocket adapter, but mostly as an Ethernet-equipped portable terminal. Literally DOS + packet driver + Kermit... nothing else on the boot floppy. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 23-Jul-2008 at 20:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.2 F (-59.0 C) Windchill -102.8 F (-74.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.2 kts Grid 4 Barometer 667.0 mb (11122 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 23 17:25:46 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:25:46 -0600 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807231041y22098a58if962e33d33bd67a4@mail.gmail.com> <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> Some old digital data books are online line - many around 1968 ish. TTL-RTL-ECL-DTL ect. http://tech-systems-labs.com/data_books.htm From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 23 18:10:46 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:10:46 -0700 Subject: Old data books online Message-ID: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> leeched from bitsavers From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jul 23 18:24:37 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:24:37 -0400 Subject: multiprocessor microPDP-11/83 Message-ID: <4887BDB5.8080907@nktelco.net> A post about a multiprocessor PDP-11/45 made me think about a multiprocessor microPDP-11/83. Is it possible to connect the Qbus of two microPDP-11/83s together? what about Unibus PDP-11/84s? The -11/83 is more interesting, because I can replicate it. Since bus arbitration is handled by the processor, arbitration on one of the processors would need to be disabled. The KDJ11-B Users Guide doesn't suggest a way to do this. The arbitrating processor would also have to field all the interrupts. I am tired of reading about the first computer on the internet... Besides, I have not heard any of you wise guys argue that there couldn't be a first computer on the internet (or Internet) or any network since a single computer can't make up a network. -chuck From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 18:31:10 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:31:10 -0400 Subject: adm3a and Linux In-Reply-To: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220807211951s369a6bd1r2b1699876bcb810a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220807231631t3c79b28as324bccc1eaf16378@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:51 PM, John Floren wrote: > I pulled out my ADM-3A today in an effort to stave off studying and > homework and such; hooked it up to my Debian box, only to find that > there isn't really very good support for it under Debian. I use this > line in my inittab: > T0:23:respawn:/sbin/getty -h -L ttyS0 9600 adm3a > and while I can log in, vim for example looks TERRIBLE, ls tries to do > color and fails miserably, etc. > When I log on to one of the Solaris machines on campus via SSH, they > handle things gracefully. ls works right, vi is excellent. > Is the difference in our terminfo files, or what? I'm not really sure > how these things work so I'm hoping somebody can help me figure out > what's up here, because I'd like my Debian computer to play nicely > with the terminal. > Thanks > > John Ok, one more thing. When I turn on the terminal, I don't get a login prompt, just the cursor in the upper left. I hit enter and break a bunch of times but don't get anything. If I unplug the serial cable and reconnect it, however, I'll suddenly get all the login prompts that I should have seen from hitting enter all those times. Here's what I've got in my inittab: T0:23:respawn:/sbin/getty -h -L ttyS0 9600 adm3a Anybody know what's going on here? I seem to remember it working fine hooked up to my Debian laptop... John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 23 18:35:48 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:35:48 -0700 Subject: multiprocessor microPDP-11/83 In-Reply-To: <4887BDB5.8080907@nktelco.net> References: <4887BDB5.8080907@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4887C054.5090506@brouhaha.com> Charles H Dickman wrote: > Is it possible to connect the Qbus of two > microPDP-11/83s together? what about Unibus PDP-11/84s? Neither one without a lot of hardware hacking. > Since bus arbitration is handled by the processor, arbitration on one of > the processors would need to be disabled. The KDJ11-B Users Guide > doesn't suggest a way to do this. AFAIK, there's no feature to do that designed into it. IIRC, the MicroVAX II CPU module (KA630) was designed to do exactly what you describe. > I am tired of reading about the first computer on the internet... I haven't seen any discussion of that here, and it's not controversial. > Besides, I have not heard any of you wise guys argue that there couldn't > be a first computer on the internet (or Internet) or any network since a > single computer can't make up a network. Well, one of them had to be the first to send a packet, and I think you can argue that you are connected to the internet until you actually send or receive a packet. The node receiving that first packet would then be the second node on the internet, since it started receiving the packet at a later time than the first node started sending it (due to propogation delay). Eric From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jul 23 19:00:12 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:00:12 -0400 Subject: multiprocessor microPDP-11/83 In-Reply-To: <4887C054.5090506@brouhaha.com> References: <4887BDB5.8080907@nktelco.net> <4887C054.5090506@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4887C60C.7020609@nktelco.net> Eric Smith wrote: > > IIRC, the MicroVAX II CPU module (KA630) was designed to do exactly > what you describe. > And knowing that kind of triggered my thinking. I would not have been surprised that they would have built the capability into the hardware. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 23 21:31:59 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:31:59 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov>, <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> I was musing today about the old recirculating stores (mercury delay line, magnetostrictive, acoustic, etc.) used for memory on old iron. Suppose one wanted simulate one in modern components. How would you do it, if you had, say, a million bits to store? Would you use a 1x1Mb DRAM and a counter to cycle through the addresses? Or an 8x128Kb SRAM with an external 8 bit shift register? Any other thoughts? Access has to be read and write and make the bitrate about 10MHz. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jul 23 21:40:13 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:40:13 -0400 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? Message-ID: <01C8ED15.13AF2280@host-208-79-60-109.dyn.295.ca> Don't overlook the Dollar stores (or whatever they're called in your part of the world); that's where I found my tiny torx. And FWIW, up here N of 49 Active sells a fairly complete 32-pc security bit set for ~$10.00. m From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 23 22:03:59 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:03:59 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... Message-ID: <4887F11F.2090903@bitsavers.org> > Suppose one wanted simulate one in modern components. How would you > do it, if you had, say, a million bits to store? Fewest parts would be to use a FIFO feeding the "O" back to the "I" I had thought about building a state sequencer this way once for a project where the sequence was of programmable length, but didn't require branching. -- The ADM3 'A' version differed from the original by replacing the recirculating shift registers with 2102's and a 10 bit counter. From drb at msu.edu Wed Jul 23 22:10:34 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:10:34 -0400 Subject: multiprocessor microPDP-11/83 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:24:37 EDT.) <4887BDB5.8080907@nktelco.net> References: <4887BDB5.8080907@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200807240310.m6O3AYOq027286@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > A post about a multiprocessor PDP-11/45 made me think about a > multiprocessor microPDP-11/83. Is it possible to connect the Qbus of two > microPDP-11/83s together? what about Unibus PDP-11/84s? The -11/83 is > more interesting, because I can replicate it. How about a T-11 (Falcon)? They were designed to be slave processors in a multiprocessor system. De From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 23 22:34:55 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:34:55 -0400 Subject: multiprocessor microPDP-11/83 In-Reply-To: <200807240310.m6O3AYOq027286@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4887BDB5.8080907@nktelco.net> <200807240310.m6O3AYOq027286@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200807232334.55516.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 23 July 2008, Dennis Boone wrote: > > A post about a multiprocessor PDP-11/45 made me think about a > > multiprocessor microPDP-11/83. Is it possible to connect the Qbus > > of two microPDP-11/83s together? what about Unibus PDP-11/84s? The > > -11/83 is more interesting, because I can replicate it. > > How about a T-11 (Falcon)? They were designed to be slave processors > in a multiprocessor system. Sure, a KXT11 (M8377), or KXJ11 (M7616) slave processor board would probably fit the bill here. I have a KXJ11 or two thanks to another cctalk member, which I mean to get back to playing with at some point. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From eric940 at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 22:51:07 2008 From: eric940 at gmail.com (Eric) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:51:07 -0700 Subject: more adm3 stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:20 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > John Floren queried: > >> Do you guys know any good fixes for that kind of thing, or am I cursed >> to hearing that terrible head-numbing whine forever? > > No, just until you're about in your mid-30s or so. What? ;-) From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jul 23 22:56:59 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:56:59 -0400 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov>, <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4887FD8B.7010509@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was musing today about the old recirculating stores (mercury delay > line, magnetostrictive, acoustic, etc.) used for memory on old iron. > > Suppose one wanted simulate one in modern components. How would you > do it, if you had, say, a million bits to store? > > Would you use a 1x1Mb DRAM and a counter to cycle through the > addresses? Or an 8x128Kb SRAM with an external 8 bit shift register? > > Any other thoughts? Access has to be read and write and make the > bitrate about 10MHz. > It wouldn't matter really. What does is that it behaves the same way. If I had to do it, I'd almost always do it in software, I would base it on a cycle counter. At whatever rate is proper. If you say 10MHz, ok fine, so if I had a 10MHz CPU clock, I'd use that, if not I'd adjust for whatever would reconcile the CPU clock cycle rate versus the period (1/freq) for the memory. In the end, you can always figure out what the proper math for it is, and get at the right bit. If I had to emulate it, I'd do something like figure out what my current clock cycle is, and which bit out of those I needed, and do the modulo math to get at it. So at some point, you'd divide by 8. Since you're dividing by a power of two, you can (under most architectures) use a right shift, and use the left over bits to figure out the rest. So if the CPU clock was 10MHz (and you need to be careful of how long each instruction takes), then use the clock cycle as a pointer into that memory, modulo its size. If it really wasn't a million bits, but rather a power of two, say 2^20, it makes it a little bit easier. (Mind you I'm horribly drunk - so I shouldn't even be typing, let alone trying to figure out powers of 2 here, but as a recently jobless unix sysadmin loser bum, indulge me my two seconds of neuronal discharge. :-) So don't actually rotate the bits around, but instead look at the clock cycle counter and use that as an index into the memory at the moment in time you care about. i.e. use 2^20-1 as a filter and AND that against the counter like so (apply grains of salt as needed): valuenow=memory[ (counter & 0xFFFFF)>>8 ] & 1<<(counter & 0x07); If you had to do it in hardware, well, use whatever you can as a counter, fed at the proper speed as an index into the address space. I suspect a 555 timer wired up the right way to pulse at 10MHz, and wired to feed a 20 bit counter circuit which acts as the address bus of said memory would work, but there's probably more elegant ways of doing it. Just my drunken worthless $10^-93 ;-) From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Jul 23 23:08:43 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:38:43 +0930 Subject: Micro Data PC230 (South Australian computer) Message-ID: <200807241338.44079.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi, A while ago I got one of these off a friend of a friend and got it going a few days ago. I was wondering if anyone had any information about it, specifically a technical reference manual. I'd like to have a closer look at its architecture, just out of curiocity and for this... The hard disk interface is a WD33C93 and has a BIOS to let MS-DOS access it. It currently has its original 20MB Miniscribe hard drive internally and I attached an external 140MB 5.25" SCSI drive. Just as an experiment, I attached a CD-ROM drive to it and set the number of SCSI drives to three. It detected the CD-ROM drive when there was a disk in it, but MS-DOS doesn't natively support ISO9660 drives. So I made a 20MB hard disk image in QEMU, partitioned it in FDISK and formatted it, then burnt the image to a CD. MS-DOS detected it as a drive first go. This shouldn't be a surprise if you know a thing or two about the SCSI architecture. This makes me wonder if there's such thing as an ISO9660 extension for MS-DOS that will let me access CD's in this way. The issue is if I don't have a disc in the CD-ROM drive when it boots it will fail to detect the drive. The other option is writing a driver for the WD33C93... Thanks, Alexis From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jul 23 23:13:30 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:13:30 -0500 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887F11F.2090903@bitsavers.org> References: <4887F11F.2090903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4888016A.5060708@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Suppose one wanted simulate one in modern components. How would you > > do it, if you had, say, a million bits to store? > > Fewest parts would be to use a FIFO feeding the "O" back to the "I" > > I had thought about building a state sequencer this way once for a project > where the sequence was of programmable length, but didn't require > branching. The recirculation is only part of the problem. There needs to be logic that will accept an address and a datum and will know when is the right time to accept this datum instead of recirculating, and will send an ack to some other datapath that the write is complete. Likewise for read, it must wait for the right word to come around and then signal when the data is finally there. I think the best approach would be an SRAM and a small FPGA. If the word was 8b, this would imply a recirc time of 8 Hz, so presumably Chuck is thinking of a wider datapath. In this case, keep using an 8b SRAM and clock it at 40 MHz or 80 MHz and mux/demux on the fpga to provide a 32b or 64b data port to the outside world. I'm sure you can buy an FPGA with 1 MB of on-chip SRAM, but it would still probably be cheaper to use a small & cheap FPGA and an an external SRAM. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 00:08:13 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:08:13 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... References: , <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov>, <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> Chuck, It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the respect and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode. A photo transistor or photo PIN diode at the end will read your data so that it can be replicated at the beginning of the fibre and start the whole loop over again. Makes me tingle just thinking about it. For reference whomever suggested a 555 as a clock source, they crap out at about 1 MHz. A really good CMOS 555 ( a 7555 ) on a good day may make it to 2 MHz but I wouldn't hold my breathe. Come on Chuck, show us what your made of ....... Best regards, Steven > I was musing today about the old recirculating stores (mercury delay > line, magnetostrictive, acoustic, etc.) used for memory on old iron. > > Suppose one wanted simulate one in modern components. How would you > do it, if you had, say, a million bits to store? > > Would you use a 1x1Mb DRAM and a counter to cycle through the > addresses? Or an 8x128Kb SRAM with an external 8 bit shift register? > > Any other thoughts? Access has to be read and write and make the > bitrate about 10MHz. > > Cheers, > Chuck From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Thu Jul 24 00:11:28 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:11:28 -0700 Subject: Northstar Advantage in Seattle for sale trade. In-Reply-To: <200807240506.m6O56ar6016935@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807240506.m6O56ar6016935@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5252E013581B4FC8BEF2AB99850E0C60@odin> Any interest in a Northstar Advantage? I know pretty much nothing about this machine but it does appear in good shape. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 00:39:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:39:49 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars Message-ID: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> Looking at the image on the linked page, I'm wondering what kind of a dual drive setup that is. Mine doesn't look like that. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars Date: Thursday 24 July 2008 00:39 From: "Steve Gunhouse" To: "fidoguns at fidoguns.org" Was it really 25 years ago? -- Steve Gunhouse ------------------------------------------------------- -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From tommytune123 at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 07:09:37 2008 From: tommytune123 at gmail.com (Tom Manos) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:09:37 -0400 Subject: ultrix on simh Message-ID: <6d4ad1ed0807230509ka374844jb8a6d4ac3a96ccb7@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I'm running Ultrix V2 on Simh quite happily today and have a couple of goals I don't know how to accomplish. I'm hoping someone here can help. First, the tape I installed from created two very small virtual disks and filesystems on rl00 and rl01. I would like to be able to create a third virtual disk with more space so I could actually get some work done. Does anyone know how to create and mount a new filesystem on a new virtual image under simh/ultrix? Second, I would maybe like to upgrade to Ultrix 3.1, maybe on a vax if it is supported. Is there a howto for doing so under simh, including where to find a good boot tape? Third, I would like to find and install the online manuals, which were missing from my distribution. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find them. Are they available online, or does someone have a set they can tar up and share? I'm pretty UNIX savvy, but I really started getting deeply interested and involved in the SYSVR2 days. My experience with DEC hardware and software from an administrator's position is nonexistent, but I really want to learn. Someday I would actually like to have a microvax running UNIX here to play with. But that's another story. Thanks in advance for any wisdom you can impart. Tom From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 13:58:15 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:58:15 -0500 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: References: <4887260E.2060305@gmail.com> Message-ID: home depot has a "husky" brand torx driver, has something like 3 two-headed bits that go in the handle,all of them are the tiny sizes, i think i paid something like $10 for it, that thing has been an invaluable tool for working on old systems and new systems alike, a MUST for any toolbox. On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Non-OT: it always seems to be worth buying a set when it comes to things > like > > this and gambling on needing at least one other size at some point down > the > > line. Individual "specialist" tools always seem to have a huge mark-up... > > The other reason is that if you need one size of such a tool, you'll use > it to get the cover off and then find some other size of the same type of > tool is needed to go further. Been there, done that :-) > > > > > > Trouble is, at least back in the UK, the walk-in stores often only carry > the > > individual tools; sets have to be ordered online, which is no use when > you > > Odd... I find the reverse. Plenty of places will sell me a set of > spanners, finding a shop that will sell an idividual spanner is a lot > harder. > > The problem with ets is that they don't always include every size. Most > UK-sets of inch-size Allen keys do not include 9/64", which is a stnadard > size for a small UNX bold. You'll have 'fun' dismantling an ASR33 or > getting the backplane out of a PDP11/45 without one. > > And how many UK spanner sets include 11/32 A/F? An open-ended spanner of > that size is esential for getting the PSU panel out of an HP9810 or 9820. > I did manage to get one from a good local tool shop, it was _very_ > expensive, but excellent quality (and worth it to restore an old HP > machine...) > > > need it right away... > > -tony > > From steerex at ccvn.com Wed Jul 23 19:48:31 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:48:31 -0400 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807231041y22098a58if962e33d33bd67a4@mail.gmail.com> <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov> <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1216860511.2378.0.camel@bart> On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 16:25 -0600, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Some old digital data books are online line - many around 1968 ish. > TTL-RTL-ECL-DTL ect. > http://tech-systems-labs.com/data_books.htm > Very nice... Thanks -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Wed Jul 23 20:44:41 2008 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:44:41 -0500 Subject: ultrix on simh In-Reply-To: <6d4ad1ed0807230509ka374844jb8a6d4ac3a96ccb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/23/08 7:09 AM, "Tom Manos" wrote: > Hi, > I'm running Ultrix V2 on Simh quite happily today and have a couple of goals > I don't know how to accomplish. I'm hoping someone here can help. > > First, the tape I installed from created two very small virtual disks and > filesystems on rl00 and rl01. I would like to be able to create a third > virtual disk with more space so I could actually get some work done. Does > anyone know how to create and mount a new filesystem on a new virtual image > under simh/ultrix? > > Second, I would maybe like to upgrade to Ultrix 3.1, maybe on a vax if it is > supported. Is there a howto for doing so under simh, including where to find > a good boot tape? > > Third, I would like to find and install the online manuals, which were > missing from my distribution. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find > them. Are they available online, or does someone have a set they can tar up > and share? > > I'm pretty UNIX savvy, but I really started getting deeply interested and > involved in the SYSVR2 days. My experience with DEC hardware and software > from an administrator's position is nonexistent, but I really want to learn. > Someday I would actually like to have a microvax running UNIX here to play > with. But that's another story. > > Thanks in advance for any wisdom you can impart. > > Tom I have an image of an Ultrix V3.1 upgrade tape I can send if you want to try it. You should be able to mount it as a tape in the simh vax emulator and boot it. If you want to go a little further, I also have V4.x images. Richard Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 24 01:09:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:09:29 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: , <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jul 2008 at 22:08, Scanning wrote: > It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the respect > and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic > cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode. A > photo transistor or photo PIN diode at the end will read your data so that > it can be replicated at the beginning of the fibre and start the whole loop > over again. Makes me tingle just thinking about it. Crikey, I couldn't afford enough fiber to recirculate a megabit! Let's see--I'm after a 10MHz bitrate and the speed of light through glass is about 2.00x10**8 m/sec... Think of the logic speed that would be required to keep track of position of any given bit within the loop... ! Cheers, Chuck From wgungfu at uwm.edu Thu Jul 24 01:17:04 2008 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (wgungfu at uwm.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:17:04 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars In-Reply-To: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1216880224.48881e605a57c@panthermail.uwm.edu> I find this comment in the comments area interesting as well: "Punked by WIRED! We provided the original "WarGames IMSAI" and related props with promise of proper credits and reimbursement for expenses. Neither has happened. Sleaziness and manipulation at its higher level. Credits for providing the equipment considered "so vital" for this article should have been given to Thomas "Todd" Fischer and imsai dot net, as well as Sellam Ismail at vintage dot org (for loan of the IMSAI Dual Disk Drives). Conde Nast at its nastiness!" Quoting "Roy J. Tellason" : > Looking at the image on the linked page, I'm wondering what kind of a dual > drive setup that is. Mine doesn't look like that. > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks > Into Stars > Date: Thursday 24 July 2008 00:39 > From: "Steve Gunhouse" > To: "fidoguns at fidoguns.org" > > > > Was it really 25 years ago? > > -- > Steve Gunhouse > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 24 01:25:41 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:25:41 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887F11F.2090903@bitsavers.org> References: <4887F11F.2090903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4887BDF5.14508.16FA892@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jul 2008 at 20:03, Al Kossow wrote: > Fewest parts would be to use a FIFO feeding the "O" back to the "I" > > I had thought about building a state sequencer this way once for a project > where the sequence was of programmable length, but didn't require branching. Still need that counter to figure out where things are, so I'm not sure if the use of a FIFO drops the parts count by much. Probably a CPLD+RAM would be the lowest package count. Cheers, Chuck From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 02:00:57 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:00:57 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... References: , <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000901c8ed5b$06035e30$0301a8c0@hal9000> Chuck, If you kicked your clock rate up to 100 MHz you would only need about 3048 Kilometers of fibre ..... Best regards, Steven P.S. What about bouncing a beam of coherent light between two not quite so parallel front-surface mirrors .... ? P.P.S. Maybe a SAW device and a piece of glass... ? Subject: Re: Pointless question... > On 23 Jul 2008 at 22:08, Scanning wrote: > > > It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the respect > > and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic > > cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode. A > > photo transistor or photo PIN diode at the end will read your data so that > > it can be replicated at the beginning of the fibre and start the whole loop > > over again. Makes me tingle just thinking about it. > > Crikey, I couldn't afford enough fiber to recirculate a megabit! > Let's see--I'm after a 10MHz bitrate and the speed of light through > glass is about 2.00x10**8 m/sec... > > Think of the logic speed that would be required to keep track of > position of any given bit within the loop... ! > > Cheers, > Chuck From davidfrkane at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 02:02:05 2008 From: davidfrkane at gmail.com (David Kane) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:02:05 +1000 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 4:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Jul 2008 at 22:08, Scanning wrote: > > Crikey, I couldn't afford enough fiber to recirculate a megabit! > Let's see--I'm after a 10MHz bitrate and the speed of light through > glass is about 2.00x10**8 m/sec... > > Think of the logic speed that would be required to keep track of > position of any given bit within the loop... ! > > Cheers, > Chuck > > 1000000 bit on copper wire would occupy about 50000 metres of the stuff to rely on the propagation delay to store the data. How about you do a serial to 8 bit parallel conversion on the data then transmit it in parallel over 8 by 200ish metre cables then re-serialise the data at the other end. Or even don't bother with the serialisation and leave it as a byte wide delay line and then you don't have to stress on the logic speed issue. David From davidfrkane at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 02:17:57 2008 From: davidfrkane at gmail.com (David Kane) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:17:57 +1000 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 5:02 PM, David Kane wrote: > > > > 1000000 bit on copper wire would occupy about 50000 metres of the stuff to > rely on the propagation delay to store the data. How about you do a serial > to 8 bit parallel conversion on the data then transmit it in parallel over 8 > by 200ish metre cables then re-serialise the data at the other end. Or even > don't bother with the serialisation and leave it as a byte wide delay line > and then you don't have to stress on the logic speed issue. > David > > Maybe if I engaged my brain when I did my math it would be best. Copper is 20m/bit not 20bit/m oops.So my idea would need 8 by 78km wires. And even then my logic was no good anyway, the segmentation of the line length does not get power of 2 increase in data density. *backing out into the shadows again* David From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 24 02:41:56 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:41:56 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <000901c8ed5b$06035e30$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: , <000901c8ed5b$06035e30$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4887CFD4.29358.1B5778B@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2008 at 0:00, Scanning wrote: > P.P.S. Maybe a SAW device and a piece of glass... ? Many years ago, when "thin film" memories were hot stuff, I recall reading something about an experiment wherein proton precession (as in a proton precession magnetometer) was proposed as a storage mechanism. Store a megabit in a bottle of water sort of thing. The details escape me after 40 or so years, but I do recall it was a LIFO sort of arrangement--the bits came out in the reverse order that they went in. So, no good for my application. Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 07:42:53 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:42:53 -0500 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Jul 2008 at 22:08, Scanning wrote: > >> It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the respect >> and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic >> cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode. A >> photo transistor or photo PIN diode at the end will read your data so that >> it can be replicated at the beginning of the fibre and start the whole loop >> over again. Makes me tingle just thinking about it. > > Crikey, I couldn't afford enough fiber to recirculate a megabit! > Let's see--I'm after a 10MHz bitrate and the speed of light through > glass is about 2.00x10**8 m/sec... Hmm, big laser and a Mars-mounted reflector? Cue "world's biggest computer " and "world's first interplanetary computer" threads :-) JOOI, what was the typical speed for original delay-storage technology? How does your intended 10MHz compare? cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 09:35:13 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:35:13 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887BDF5.14508.16FA892@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4887F11F.2090903@bitsavers.org> <4887BDF5.14508.16FA892@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> > On 23 Jul 2008 at 20:03, Al Kossow wrote:> > > Fewest parts would be to use a FIFO feeding the "O" back to the "I"> > > > I had thought about building a state sequencer this way once for a project> > where the sequence was of programmable length, but didn't require branching.> > Still need that counter to figure out where things are, so I'm not > sure if the use of a FIFO drops the parts count by much.> > Probably a CPLD+RAM would be the lowest package count.> > Cheers,> Chuck> > Hi I had to create a pattern generator once. It needed two sequences. It needed an initialization sequence and a repeat sequence. This was to be stored in SRAM. I did the counter circuit with just a loadable counter and two sets of latches. There were no address comparitors. I used the carry from the counter to reload the loop begining address. I'd use the other latch to enter the inialization address that was something less than the loop address. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Jul 24 10:08:07 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:08:07 -0400 Subject: Sun & DEC stuff in Rochester In-Reply-To: <7d3530220807221614q60360ed0g11de671f46d4446d@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220807221614q60360ed0g11de671f46d4446d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48889AD7.3020303@Rikers.org> Which Rochester? Just curious. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! ? ? ????????u poo? ??n??u??s ?no? u? 8-??n s? ? ? From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jul 24 10:27:43 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:27:43 -0400 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov> References: <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807231041y22098a58if962e33d33bd67a4@mail.gmail.com> <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov> Message-ID: <13962.1216913263@mini> Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 06:41:04PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: >> 2008/7/23 Eric J Korpela : >> >> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for inter >net >> >> access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN >> >> networking? >> > >> > I'm fairly sure WfW had TCP/IP. You could add TCP/IP to WFW. But as I recall (dimly) MacTCP beat WFW on the pc to the Internet. mmm. it's coming back to me. The pc based tcp/ip work done at MIT. That was the first tcp/ip on a pc I think (unless you count a lisp machine as a PC, which I would, since it was a 32 bit single user machine with a graphics display and keyboard :-) The pc/tcp code was ported to the Macintosh (at Dartmouth I think) for use with the early gateways like the fastpath (and before that the gateway based on the old SUN - as in Stanford - boards). So, I guess the old pc/tcp code from MIT was first. That has telnet, ftp and basic mail as I recall. Then the ports to the macintosh. This was in the "ethernet is the thick yellow cable" era, around 1986. Well before 1995. I remember using telnet on a mac to our various vaxen in 1986. I had to add a bunch of appletalk routing code to the fastpath to get it to work. But telnet was faster than serial and way more fun. >> > Unix and Linux, yes. MacOS didn't have built in TCP/IP until MacOS 8 >> > in 1997. I don't think that is correct. Unless you're claiming that MacTCP was not "built in", which you could claim, but John Veizades would probably have something to say about that. It was certainly available long before 1995. The ip-over-appletalk working group inside the IETF was very active in the late '80s. -brad From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 10:37:57 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:37:57 -0400 Subject: Sun & DEC stuff in Rochester In-Reply-To: <48889AD7.3020303@Rikers.org> References: <7d3530220807221614q60360ed0g11de671f46d4446d@mail.gmail.com> <48889AD7.3020303@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <7d3530220807240837u49edd04and653babc35ce04e8@mail.gmail.com> New York. However, everything except the monitor has been spoken for. John On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Tim Riker wrote: > Which Rochester? Just curious. > -- > Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > ? ? ????????u poo? ??n??u??s ?no? u? 8-??n s? ? ? > -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 24 10:54:00 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:54:00 -0400 Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars In-Reply-To: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C753020-89F4-4D15-82FC-1E4D260C6CD3@neurotica.com> Is that not a standard IMSAI floppy subsystem, the one that uses the same drives as the DEC RX01? -Dave On Jul 24, 2008, at 1:39 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Looking at the image on the linked page, I'm wondering what kind > of a dual > drive setup that is. Mine doesn't look like that. > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks > and Phreaks > Into Stars > Date: Thursday 24 July 2008 00:39 > From: "Steve Gunhouse" > To: "fidoguns at fidoguns.org" > > ff_wargames> > > Was it really 25 years ago? > > -- > Steve Gunhouse > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet > Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > lies. --James > M Dakin > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 24 10:58:54 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <13962.1216913263@mini> from Brad Parker at "Jul 24, 8 11:27:43 am" Message-ID: <200807241558.m6OFwsCa014484@floodgap.com> > >> > Unix and Linux, yes. MacOS didn't have built in TCP/IP until MacOS 8 > >> > in 1997. > > I don't think that is correct. Unless you're claiming that MacTCP was > not "built in", which you could claim, but John Veizades would probably > have something to say about that. It was certainly available long before > 1995. I don't believe neither MacTCP nor Open Transport were standard parts of MacOS until, in fact, OS 8. When I installed 7.1 and 7.5 (gag), I had to go scare up separate networking stacks. I don't remember if 7.6 had anything built in but I'm pretty sure Open Transport was still sold separately then too. They were available, though, even MacTCP for System 6 IIRC. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A straw vote only shows which way the hot air blows. -- O. Henry ----------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 11:23:42 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:23:42 -0500 Subject: Small Torx (Was: What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: References: <4887260E.2060305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4888AC8E.6010609@gmail.com> joe lobocki wrote: > home depot has a "husky" brand torx driver For all their cheapness, I've been hurling lots of physical abuse at a set of Husky wrenches and bits that I bought (until I can get my nicer set shipped over from the UK) and they seem to be standing up well. It's hard to quantify, but there do seem to be cases where cheap tools will do a job well (and last). Expensive isn't always better, but there's a definite art to picking reliable tooling. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 11:29:00 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:29:00 -0500 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> References: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4888ADCC.1040703@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > leeched from bitsavers Thanks for the heads-up - I was just about to bookmark their site! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 24 11:51:07 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:51:07 -0600 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <4888ADCC.1040703@gmail.com> References: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> <4888ADCC.1040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4888B2FB.4050909@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> leeched from bitsavers > > Thanks for the heads-up - I was just about to bookmark their site! > Well it can't hurt to have duplicates. I tend to find bitsavers nice but hard to find stuff if you don't know where to look. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jul 24 11:57:02 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:57:02 -0300 Subject: Old data books online References: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> <4888ADCC.1040703@gmail.com> <4888B2FB.4050909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <097f01c8edae$6e689820$0102a8c0@portajara> >>> leeched from bitsavers Better to have a backup to have someone to start scanning everything again. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 24 12:02:02 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:02:02 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov>, <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4888B58A.30303@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was musing today about the old recirculating stores (mercury delay > line, magnetostrictive, acoustic, etc.) used for memory on old iron. > > Suppose one wanted simulate one in modern components. How would you > do it, if you had, say, a million bits to store? CCD memory, e.g., 16 pieces of Intel 2464. > Would you use a 1x1Mb DRAM and a counter to cycle through the > addresses? Or an 8x128Kb SRAM with an external 8 bit shift register? Oh, *that* modern. If I was just building one, I certainly wouldn't bother with DRAM. Is there some reason you don't want to use a 1Mx1 SRAM, e.g., Cypress CY7C1007D-10VXI? Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 24 12:04:40 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:04:40 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887FD8B.7010509@arachelian.com> References: , <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov>, <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> <4887FD8B.7010509@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4888B628.501@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Any other thoughts? Access has to be read and write and make the > bitrate about 10MHz. Ray Arachelian wrote: > If I had to do it, I'd almost always do it in software, I would base it > on a cycle counter. At whatever rate is proper. If you say 10MHz, ok > fine, so if I had a 10MHz CPU clock, I'd use that, How are you going to use any conventional CPU at 10 MHz to bit-bang a 10 MHz bitstream? Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 12:04:52 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:04:52 -0400 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> References: <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200807241304.53980.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 24 July 2008 08:42, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 23 Jul 2008 at 22:08, Scanning wrote: > >> It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the > >> respect and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of > >> fibre optic cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED > >> or LASER diode. A photo transistor or photo PIN diode at the end will > >> read your data so that it can be replicated at the beginning of the > >> fibre and start the whole loop over again. Makes me tingle just thinking > >> about it. > > > > Crikey, I couldn't afford enough fiber to recirculate a megabit! > > Let's see--I'm after a 10MHz bitrate and the speed of light through > > glass is about 2.00x10**8 m/sec... > > Hmm, big laser and a Mars-mounted reflector? Cue "world's biggest computer > " and "world's first interplanetary computer" threads :-) Mars? What the heck do you do then when it's on the other side of the sun? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 24 12:11:05 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:11:05 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: , <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov>, <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4888B7A9.2000707@brouhaha.com> Scanning wrote: > It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the respect > and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic > cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode. Storing 1 Mbit at 10 MHz in a spool of fiber would definitely inspire awe of a sort, but perhaps not the kind you had in mind. You'll definitely need lasers, not LEDs, and you'll have to splice an optical amplifier into the spool for every few km of fiber. Just dealing with the power consumption would be non-trivial. Got a substation next door? Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 24 12:12:24 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:12:24 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4888B7F8.200@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Think of the logic speed that would be required to keep track of > position of any given bit within the loop... ! No more than with any other kind of 10 MHz delay line. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 24 12:12:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:12:34 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4888B58A.30303@brouhaha.com> References: , <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4888B58A.30303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48885592.30066.3BFE83D@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2008 at 10:02, Eric Smith wrote: > Oh, *that* modern. If I was just building one, I certainly wouldn't > bother with DRAM. Is there some reason you don't want to use a 1Mx1 > SRAM, e.g., Cypress CY7C1007D-10VXI? Huh, I'd blown right by that one, quietly thinking that the part description had to have been a misprint. Useful to know that 1Mx1 SRAM parts do exist. Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 24 12:00:21 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Double-wide equipment cabinets available Message-ID: I have a couple large double-wide 19" equipment cabinets that used to contain the components for a Nicolet NMR spectrometer. They are six feet tall and would hold lots of gear. Before I scrap them I wanted to offer them to anyone who could use them. I would like a token amount (basically the cost of the steel scrap, which would be maybe $30-$40. Local pick-up would be required (I really doubt someone would want to ship these). If there's any interest let me know ASAP and I'll send photos. I need to be rid of these within the next few days as they are consuming valuable space that I need to recover. Please reply directly to me. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jul 24 12:18:16 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:18:16 +0100 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> References: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4888B958.6050804@gjcp.net> Al Kossow wrote: > leeched from bitsavers Ask them if they'll do a proper mirror. Gordon From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 24 12:50:06 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more adm3 stuff Message-ID: Eric pondered: > > No, just until you're about in your mid-30s or so. > What? Seriously: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/12/technology/12ring.html?_r=1&oref=slogin -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 24 13:07:34 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:07:34 -0700 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations Message-ID: <4888C4E6.8010400@bitsavers.org> > The pc based tcp/ip work done at > MIT. That was the first tcp/ip on a pc I think And THAT software (which was sold by FTP Software) was based on BCPL code for the Alto. From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 24 13:01:52 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rant about loaning vintage computers for ad shoots and props (was Fwd: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars) Message-ID: Dave McGuire asked: > Is that not a standard IMSAI floppy subsystem, the one that uses the > same drives as the DEC RX01? Yes. However, it's missing the control logic board :( As has been pointed out, Wired totally stiffed us on the credit. They gave partial (partial as in they didn't follow my instructions) credit to me...can you find it? These guys are total douchebags. And on this note I would like to entreat the CC community to realize that the items in their collection are rare and valuable and in demand, and not only that but so is your time. This stuff is getting harder to find. You can't just go to the local hamfest or surplus shop anymore and pick up a dual 8" floppy drive, not to mention an IMSAI dual 8" floppy drive. Many of you have paid good money to collect, restore, and store this stuff for years now. You should get compensated for it. If any media company comes to you to ask if they can borrow something from your collection, your first question to them should be, "What's your budget?" And if they fumble around with a non-answer or say you'll get exposure or credit or other useless intangibles, tell them to take a hike. They are just trying to take advantage of your naivete. At a minimum you should request $100 in compensation for your time and trouble. Also make sure they put down a deposit, or at least put in writing and HAVE SOMEONE SIGN OFF ON IT that if they damage any part of it, even a tiny scratch, they will compensate you for $X (fill in the X). It's either that or they have to dredge up stock photos or footage, and that will cost them way more, not just in licensing fees but in the time to locate what they need. You guys all maintain a valuable resource with your blood, sweat and tears. Don't underestimate the value of your time and trouble. Don't let anyone take advantage of you. I'll be happy to consult with you or even represent you if such cases arise. I will be happy to do this at no charge. I don't want to see anyone taken advantage of. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 13:22:26 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The $2500 Ataril 600XL In-Reply-To: <4888B958.6050804@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <310203.88376.qm@web56213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/sys/767297661.html 1984 Atari 600XL - In Box Never Opened with Receipt - $2500 (Oregon) Reply to: sale-767297661 at craigslist.org Date: 2008-07-23, 6:33PM EDT Bought this when I was in college. Stored like a Time Capsule >>> New>> Never Opened >> still in plastic with the receipt still in it. >>>*Like a Museum Piece*<<< In Portland Oregon >>> I thought of selling it to the maker for their archives. (Only serious Buyers please.) $2,500 (Firm) You may call (503) 789-0931 for Details. ***REMEMBER: I am in Pacific Time >> call 12pm to 12am Eastern Time!!! ONLY * Location: Oregon * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests PostingID: 767297661 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 24 13:26:42 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:26:42 -0700 Subject: Rant about loaning vintage computers for ad shoots and props Message-ID: <4888C962.6040202@bitsavers.org> > As has been pointed out, Wired totally stiffed us on the credit. > These guys are total douchebags. > If any media company comes to you to ask if they can borrow something from > your collection, your first question to them should be, "What's your > budget?" And if they fumble around with a non-answer or say you'll get > exposure or credit or other useless intangibles, tell them to take a hike. > They are just trying to take advantage of your naivete. yup... I wasted half a day looking for the Electrohome brown monitor these jerks wanted for the shoot because they were being nagging PIAs to our publicity person. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 24 13:43:33 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <200807241304.53980.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> <200807241304.53980.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080724113955.V56686@shell.lmi.net> > > Hmm, big laser and a Mars-mounted reflector? Cue "world's biggest computer > > " and "world's first interplanetary computer" threads :-) On Thu, 24 Jul 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Mars? What the heck do you do then when it's on the other side of the sun? System maintenance? Reroute the packet through Jupiter? Ask the mice for a system reconfiguration? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 24 14:01:18 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:01:18 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <20080724113955.V56686@shell.lmi.net> References: <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> <200807241304.53980.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080724113955.V56686@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4888D17E.4060407@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Ask the mice for a system reconfiguration? Meddle not in the affairs of mice, for they are pandimensional and may replace your brain with an electronic one. (A simple one should do.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 24 14:11:53 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4888D17E.4060407@brouhaha.com> References: <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> <200807241304.53980.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080724113955.V56686@shell.lmi.net> <4888D17E.4060407@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080724121013.H56686@shell.lmi.net> > > Ask the mice for a system reconfiguration? On Thu, 24 Jul 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > Meddle not in the affairs of mice, for they are pandimensional and may > replace your brain with an electronic one. (A simple one should do.) What? I don't understand. Where's the tea? From bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie Thu Jul 24 14:13:07 2008 From: bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie (Brian Foley) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:13:07 +0100 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <200807241558.m6OFwsCa014484@floodgap.com> References: <13962.1216913263@mini> <200807241558.m6OFwsCa014484@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20080724191307.GA28879@riviera.nuigalway.ie> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 08:58:54AM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >> > Unix and Linux, yes. MacOS didn't have built in TCP/IP until MacOS 8 > > >> > in 1997. > > > > I don't think that is correct. Unless you're claiming that MacTCP was > > not "built in", which you could claim, but John Veizades would probably > > have something to say about that. It was certainly available long before > > 1995. > > I don't believe neither MacTCP nor Open Transport were standard parts of > MacOS until, in fact, OS 8. When I installed 7.1 and 7.5 (gag), I had to go > scare up separate networking stacks. I don't remember if 7.6 had anything > built in but I'm pretty sure Open Transport was still sold separately then > too. OpenTransport first shipped on the PowerMac 9500 with System 7.5.2, and was bundled with System 7.5.3 and later. A standalone installer was available for System 7.1 and later. http://developer.apple.com/qa/nw/nw64.html http://web.archive.org/web/20030407165534/developer.apple.com/macos/opentransport/docs/user/Open_Transport_1.1_Manual.pdf > They were available, though, even MacTCP for System 6 IIRC. Yes. MacTCP worked with any version of System 6 or later--I remember using NSCA Telnet and the like on an SE running 6.0.7. It didn't ship with the OS until System 7.5. http://www.amc.anl.gov/ANLSoftwareLibrary/MacShareware(notsupported)/Communications/MacTCP-Watcher-100/Eric%20Behr?s%20MacTCP%20Info http://www.tengutech.net/help/mac/mactcp.html http://www.metronet.lib.mi.us/help/ConnectionProblems/SetupDocs/MacOS75.pdf Cheers, Brian Foley. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 14:13:39 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:13:39 -0400 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <20080724113955.V56686@shell.lmi.net> References: <200807241304.53980.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080724113955.V56686@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200807241513.40037.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 24 July 2008 14:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Hmm, big laser and a Mars-mounted reflector? Cue "world's biggest > > > computer " and "world's first interplanetary computer" threads :-) > > On Thu, 24 Jul 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Mars? What the heck do you do then when it's on the other side of the > > sun? > > System maintenance? > > Reroute the packet through Jupiter? > > Ask the mice for a system reconfiguration? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 24 14:41:13 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <20080724191307.GA28879@riviera.nuigalway.ie> from Brian Foley at "Jul 24, 8 08:13:07 pm" Message-ID: <200807241941.m6OJfDjg021136@floodgap.com> > > > I don't think that is correct. Unless you're claiming that MacTCP was > > > not "built in", which you could claim, but John Veizades would probably > > > have something to say about that. It was certainly available long before > > > 1995. > > > > I don't believe neither MacTCP nor Open Transport were standard parts of > > MacOS until, in fact, OS 8. When I installed 7.1 and 7.5 (gag), I had to go > > scare up separate networking stacks. I don't remember if 7.6 had anything > > built in but I'm pretty sure Open Transport was still sold separately then > > too. > > OpenTransport first shipped on the PowerMac 9500 with System 7.5.2, and > was bundled with System 7.5.3 and later. A standalone installer was > available for System 7.1 and later. I remember the standalone installer. Thanks for the correction on 7.5.3. Back in those days we were still on 7.5.0. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped. -- Groucho Marx ----------------- From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 15:11:05 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:11:05 -0400 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <200807241941.m6OJfDjg021136@floodgap.com> References: <20080724191307.GA28879@riviera.nuigalway.ie> from Brian Foley at <200807241941.m6OJfDjg021136@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Are you guys possibly forgetting "Trumpet Winsock" and the likes? Intel LanDesk manager ring any bells? Novell or Intel DOS (windows 3.11) disks, using VJ compression. The late-great company known as Ascend (in the US), although ISDN came later, at least, again, to public residential consciousness. 128K ISDN unlimited used to be $50 a month, you can't get that any more. Hey I ran several FIDONet BBSes with links to NA-Net, and CRS, etc If govts keep up with trying to overly police the net, we may just go back to BBSes yet. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 24 15:40:17 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars In-Reply-To: <1216880224.48881e605a57c@panthermail.uwm.edu> References: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> <1216880224.48881e605a57c@panthermail.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <57719.65.126.154.6.1216932017.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > I find this comment in the comments area interesting as well: > > "Punked by WIRED! We provided the original "WarGames IMSAI" and related > props > with promise of proper credits and reimbursement for expenses. Neither has > happened. Sleaziness and manipulation at its higher level. > > Credits for providing the equipment considered "so vital" for this article > should have been given to Thomas "Todd" Fischer and imsai dot net, as well > as > Sellam Ismail at vintage dot org (for loan of the IMSAI Dual Disk Drives). > > Conde Nast at its nastiness!" Conversely, the people at Esquire (Hearst) treated us in MARCH quite well. They were a pleasure to work with, including their subcontractors, and everything was handled with professionalism, from the contract to the schlepping to getting us our paycheck. We had a fine-print credit in the physical magazine, and a big red hyperlink here: http://www.esquire.com/style/fashion-story/suits-0708 ... so we're happy campers. (I asked if I could write a sidebar noting the Esquire link to Crunch, etc., but they declined. Oh well.) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jul 24 17:18:30 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:18:30 -0800 Subject: Pointless question... References: , <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4888FFB5.CF40B53D@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 23 Jul 2008 at 22:08, Scanning wrote: > > > >> It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the respect > >> and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic > >> cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode. A > >> photo transistor or photo PIN diode at the end will read your data so that > >> it can be replicated at the beginning of the fibre and start the whole loop > >> over again. Makes me tingle just thinking about it. > > > > Crikey, I couldn't afford enough fiber to recirculate a megabit! > > Let's see--I'm after a 10MHz bitrate and the speed of light through > > glass is about 2.00x10**8 m/sec... ... > > JOOI, what was the typical speed for original delay-storage technology? How > does your intended 10MHz compare? Typical bit rates for magnetostrictive delay lines used in 1960s-era calculators was on the order of 200 - 600KHz. I did calculations for propagation speed and 'physical bit length' for one of these calcs at one time but don't have the figures at hand. What's the maximum bit rate on optical fiber these days? If one were to utilise the full bandwidth of the fiber to time-slice the fiber into n channels, recirculate the bits sequentially through each of those channels, one could achieve a factor of n reduction in the length of fiber needed. I had to make a variable-length binary delay line a year or two ago for a project to get two 1950s-era Deskfax fax machines communicating (needed storage for one line of the image because the drums were not synchronised, and could start at an arbitrary phase relationship to each other). It was only a couple thousand bits of storage needed but I ended up just using 1 bit-line of an 8*8K static RAM and ignored the other 7 bit-lines. It was much simpler than trying to optimise on a smaller 8*x or 4*x RAM and feed it with shift registers. The variable delay was accomplished with two counters (read and write) started at different times and multiplexed into the RAM address lines. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 16:29:46 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:29:46 -0500 Subject: The $2500 Ataril 600XL In-Reply-To: <310203.88376.qm@web56213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4888B958.6050804@gjcp.net> <310203.88376.qm@web56213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730807241429tf3e1386n828a91e35eb5acdb@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > > http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/sys/767297661.html Heh, "the maker." Not sure they have that kind of cash still sitting around... From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Jul 24 17:40:23 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:40:23 -0400 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4888FFB5.CF40B53D@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> <4888FFB5.CF40B53D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <488904D7.7080902@comcast.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 23 Jul 2008 at 22:08, Scanning wrote: >>> >>> >>>> If you want the respect and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode. >>>> >>> Crikey, I couldn't afford enough fiber to recirculate a megabit > Typical bit rates for magnetostrictive delay lines used in 1960s-era > calculators was on the order of 200 - 600KHz. There's been some big developments in the past several years on slowing the speed of light, for future computer design applications, including memory storage. It'll save far more space in your footprint with optical fiber. Some experimental solutions have already decreased the speed of light to slower than a baseball pitch using a gelled sodium solution cooled down to near absolute zero. Maybe you can get your hands on these recent new devices, such as the photonic waveguides from IBM which are more practical but still need work on reducing the speed even further at room temperature. It might be still $$$ too :) http://tinyurl.com/6s6j96 =Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] * * From doug at stillhq.com Thu Jul 24 17:58:30 2008 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson - pesonal email) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:58:30 +1000 Subject: Clearing BIOS Passwords - Was - What is a safe way to clean corrosion? In-Reply-To: <200807221203.m6MC2arU082368@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807221203.m6MC2arU082368@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48890916.4040109@stillhq.com> Mark I had a Digital laptop a couple of years ago that somebody gave me that has a BIOS password. The configuration data including password was stored in a 24C01 8 pin NV memory chip. I searched for a solution without success, and eventually did the following. 1. With a 12" (30CM) lead, tie the serial data line of the memory chip to ground, pass the cable out of the computer case as a loop, and re-assemble the case. 2. Power on the device - Gosh - The machine believes that the memory chip is full of zeroes, so the configuration is invalid. 3. Access the setup utility. 4. Using sidecutters, open the link from the data line to ground (thats why I used 12" of wire). 5. Make the required configuration changes and save a new default password. Nothing beats a brute force hardware solution when the vendor wants you to use a convoluted USB key or "link the secret pads" solution..... Hope that this is helpful. -- Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE Principal Information Security Consultant EWA-AUSTRALIA PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 http://www.ewa-australia.com ============================================ IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). ============================================ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 24 16:41:21 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:41:21 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4888FFB5.CF40B53D@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4888FFB5.CF40B53D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48889491.27778.4B5FDA9@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2008 at 14:18, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I had to make a variable-length binary delay line a year or two ago for a > project to get two 1950s-era Deskfax fax machines communicating (needed storage > for one line of the image because the drums were not synchronised, and could > start at an arbitrary phase relationship to each other). It was only a couple > thousand bits of storage needed but I ended up just using 1 bit-line of an 8*8K > static RAM and ignored the other 7 bit-lines. It was much simpler than trying to > optimise on a smaller 8*x or 4*x RAM and feed it with shift registers. The > variable delay was accomplished with two counters (read and write) started at > different times and multiplexed into the RAM address lines. One could even use an 8x SRAM to form 8 separate loops (or 16x to form 16...). Select the appropriate loop using a little mux/demux glue. No need for shift registers. Have to latch all the bits to do a write, though, but still not too bad. Thanks for the inspiration... Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jul 24 20:01:36 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macintosh IIsi and Performa in original boxes FREE (Chicago, IL) Message-ID: A nice lady named Ann has a Macintosh IIsi and Performa (don't know what model) with all manuals, original system disks, and original boxes free for the taking in Chicago, Illinois. You can probably even convince her to ship it if you're willing to pay for the privelege. > > I have some old Mac computer equipment (IIsi and Performa) and all the > > original sofware, boxes and manuals from that era. Also, Adobe > > magazines from the early 1990's. I have an organized pile but now it's > > time to move the stuff to someone who needs certain items for their > > collectibles or send them to be recycled. The Performa isn't terribly exciting. The IIsi is just old enough now to start being interesting as a collectable. I just worked a fairly involved project that required nearly every Mac II model (hence all the recent requests) and am now more familiar with them and thus appreciate them more. The IIsi was the penultimate model of the II series (the IIvx and IIvi came last). If interested, please contact me and I will forward to you the contact information for Ann. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 22:44:23 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:44:23 -0500 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: References: <20080724191307.GA28879@riviera.nuigalway.ie> from Brian Foley at <200807241941.m6OJfDjg021136@floodgap.com> Message-ID: PCP-IP? There was the comercial version, and then some guys at The Austin Code Works advertised in Dr. Dobbs, started selling disks to those of us without access to the internet archives. I bought all kinds of cool stuff from them, there moto was 'source code, of course' PCP-IP was the tcpip stack from Carnegie Mellon, it compiled just fine with MSC and TurboC, and drivers for Novell ethernet boards. this was '86-87 Randy > From: dgahling at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:11:05 -0400 > Subject: RE: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) > > > Are you guys possibly forgetting "Trumpet Winsock" and the likes? > > Intel LanDesk manager ring any bells? > > Novell or Intel DOS (windows 3.11) disks, using VJ compression. > > The late-great company known as Ascend (in the US), although ISDN came later, at least, again, to public residential consciousness. > > 128K ISDN unlimited used to be $50 a month, you can't get that any more. > > Hey I ran several FIDONet BBSes with links to NA-Net, and CRS, etc > > If govts keep up with trying to overly police the net, we may just go back to BBSes yet. > > Dan. > > _________________________________________________________________ > If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! > http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 From scheefj at netscape.net Thu Jul 24 23:07:59 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:07:59 -0400 Subject: Any ideas on how to clear a BIOS password on a Thinkpad 701C? In-Reply-To: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> References: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4889519F.1080509@netscape.net> Mark, Are there just pads or are there pins on those pads? On a normal MB the procedure to drain the CMOS is to short the pins with a standard jumper. Try shorting the pins for 15 minutes with no power. If that has no effect, try power with the pins shorted. This is quite a crap shoot. Some MBs require a jumper on similar pins to enable a BIOS update so there is no universal procedure. BTW, I bought a 701c as well. Mine is pretty rough. The battery pack was swollen and leaking so I need to open up the case and do some cleaning before I get to see if I have the same problem. I guess you haven't gotten to the point where you find out if Warp has the drivers for the 701c or not. Let me know what you find. Also... the CMOS backup battery is soldered? It's not a nice replaceable button battery that you can just pop out and replace? Oh joy. Jim madodel wrote: > I'm trying to get a TP 701c I bought off of eBay working to install OS/2 > Warp on. But it has a password set in the BIOS. According to the > service manual ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/tpvol2.pdf > there are two Power-On Password Bypass Pads on the bottom of the lower > system board, but no instructions on what to do with them. Do I need to > short them out? If so how? Someone else suggested desoldering the > backup battery, but if I can just short two pads, that would be > preferred. Right now its completely disassembled. I have two other > 701c machines, but they each have their own problems. Worse case if I > can't clear the password I can try to take the display off this one and > put it on the 701c that has a display problem. > > Mark From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 23:32:17 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free Amiga 2000 in Middle Island, NY Message-ID: <354872.54787.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Contact Eugene below, not me - this is not my system. -------------------------------------------------- Name: Eugene DiFabio - Damescena at aol.com Where: Middle Island, NY Hi - I am looking to give away my Amiga 2000 and accessories. I have the computer, monitor, mouse, and a printer, and the complete maintenance schematics for this computer. I also have a stack of Amiga World magazines from about the year 1988- early 1990's or so. Thanks. Damescena at aol.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 25 01:10:06 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:10:06 -0700 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: References: <20080724191307.GA28879@riviera.nuigalway.ie> from Brian Foley at <200807241941.m6OJfDjg021136@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <48896E3E.9070905@brouhaha.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > PCP-IP? I think you mean PC-IP. The history of it is explained here: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/internaut/pc-ip.html From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Fri Jul 25 02:33:50 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:33:50 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... References: , <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> <4888FFB5.CF40B53D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <000f01c8ee28$c8447010$0301a8c0@hal9000> A reasonable bit rate these days is 100 Gbit / sec with the high dollar lab stuff pushing into the Terabit range.... Chuck, using ECL Gbit stuff is do-able and would shorten the length of the fibre...? A 1 Meg static RAM just sounds too easy. Best regards, Steven > What's the maximum bit rate on optical fiber these days? > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 23 Jul 2008 at 22:08, Scanning wrote: > > > > > >> It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the respect > > >> and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic > > >> cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode. A > > >> photo transistor or photo PIN diode at the end will read your data so that > > >> it can be replicated at the beginning of the fibre and start the whole loop > > >> over again. Makes me tingle just thinking about it. > > > > > > Crikey, I couldn't afford enough fiber to recirculate a megabit! > > > Let's see--I'm after a 10MHz bitrate and the speed of light through > > > glass is about 2.00x10**8 m/sec... > ... > > > > JOOI, what was the typical speed for original delay-storage technology? How > > does your intended 10MHz compare? > > Typical bit rates for magnetostrictive delay lines used in 1960s-era > calculators was on the order of 200 - 600KHz. I did calculations for > propagation speed and 'physical bit length' for one of these calcs at one time > but don't have the figures at hand. > > What's the maximum bit rate on optical fiber these days? If one were to utilise > the full bandwidth of the fiber to time-slice the fiber into n channels, > recirculate the bits sequentially through each of those channels, one could > achieve a factor of n reduction in the length of fiber needed. > From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jul 25 07:46:38 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:46:38 -0500 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <48896E3E.9070905@brouhaha.com> References: <20080724191307.GA28879@riviera.nuigalway.ie> from Brian Foley at <200807241941.m6OJfDjg021136@floodgap.com> <48896E3E.9070905@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4889CB2E.1020708@mdrconsult.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Randy Dawson wrote: >> PCP-IP? > > I think you mean PC-IP. The history of it is explained here: > http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/internaut/pc-ip.html If he lived in Austin in the mid-80s, he probably did mean PCP-IP. ;^) Doc From dogas at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 25 08:23:25 2008 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:23:25 -0400 Subject: pickup only - Lakewood, Illinois References: Message-ID: <001501c8ee59$a0689e50$1f02a8c0@DOGASzerPUTER> I saw this auction on ebay: ( not mine ) http://cgi.ebay.com/Mostek-Z80-Microcomputer-Development-System_W0QQitemZ250272717712QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem no bids, one day out, and $9.99... to big to ship. Wish I were closer, maybe someone here is and can get it cheap and keep it complete.. Looks like a sweet Z80 dev. system. Cheers - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net From devonstopps at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 08:43:26 2008 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:43:26 -0400 Subject: AIX 3.2 Weird Networking Problem In-Reply-To: <200807250434.m6P4XoP2033419@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807250434.m6P4XoP2033419@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4889D87E.60506@gmail.com> Hi All, I've run into a problem with TCP/IP on AIX 3.2, hopefully someone can shed some light on this weird problem. I've used smit to configure the network - which works fine within the subnet. The gateway points at the building router (x.x.132.1), and, a netstat -rn returns this on the default route as well. But, no traffic gets out of the building. A traceroute shows the first hop is made to x.x.132.63, where it dies - a seemingly random PC, which is not in any configuration file on the system. Any ideas why this might happen? T.H.x. Devon From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 25 09:04:34 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX 3.2 Weird Networking Problem In-Reply-To: <4889D87E.60506@gmail.com> from Devon Stopps at "Jul 25, 8 09:43:26 am" Message-ID: <200807251404.m6PE4Z8V024000@floodgap.com> > I've run into a problem with TCP/IP on AIX 3.2, hopefully someone can > shed some light on this weird problem. I've used smit to configure the > network - which works fine within the subnet. The gateway points at the > building router (x.x.132.1), and, a netstat -rn returns this on the > default route as well. > > But, no traffic gets out of the building. A traceroute shows the first > hop is made to x.x.132.63, where it dies - a seemingly random PC, which > is not in any configuration file on the system. Any ideas why this > might happen? Correct netmask? Correct interface? Anything interesting in the arp tables? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. -- Carl Sagan -------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 09:08:50 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:08:50 -0400 Subject: AIX 3.2 Weird Networking Problem In-Reply-To: <4889D87E.60506@gmail.com> References: <200807250434.m6P4XoP2033419@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4889D87E.60506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4889DE72.7010208@gmail.com> Devon Stopps wrote: > Hi All, > > I've run into a problem with TCP/IP on AIX 3.2, hopefully someone can > shed some light on this weird problem. I've used smit to configure the > network - which works fine within the subnet. The gateway points at the > building router (x.x.132.1), and, a netstat -rn returns this on the > default route as well. > > But, no traffic gets out of the building. A traceroute shows the first > hop is made to x.x.132.63, where it dies - a seemingly random PC, which > is not in any configuration file on the system. Any ideas why this > might happen? Post your 'netstat -rn' please. Peace... Sridhar From mikelee at tdh.com Fri Jul 25 09:30:18 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:30:18 -0500 Subject: pickup only - Lakewood, Illinois In-Reply-To: <001501c8ee59$a0689e50$1f02a8c0@DOGASzerPUTER> References: <001501c8ee59$a0689e50$1f02a8c0@DOGASzerPUTER> Message-ID: <4889E37A.5030104@tdh.com> I'll bid on it, if it stays inexpensive, I'm not too far away from me for pickup and looks like a nice complete setup! Mike wrote: > I saw this auction on ebay: ( not mine ) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mostek-Z80-Microcomputer-Development-System_W0QQitemZ250272717712QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > no bids, one day out, and $9.99... to big to ship. Wish I were closer, > maybe someone here is and can get it cheap and keep it complete.. Looks > like a sweet Z80 dev. system. > > Cheers > - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net > > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 10:09:31 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:09:31 -0500 Subject: pickup only - Lakewood, Illinois In-Reply-To: <4889E37A.5030104@tdh.com> References: <001501c8ee59$a0689e50$1f02a8c0@DOGASzerPUTER> <4889E37A.5030104@tdh.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730807250809x339484baub9d67c905515a9a9@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Michael Lee wrote: > I'll bid on it, if it stays inexpensive, I'm not too far > away from me for pickup and looks like a nice complete setup! I'm close to it too (no I won't outbid you, Mike ;) Any idea what it runs as an O/S? Can it run as a regular CP/M machine, or was all the software specialized for the development system? From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jul 25 10:48:53 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:48:53 -0700 Subject: Alphas available Message-ID: <843903A6-5615-4A36-934F-D3ACE90652EB@shiresoft.com> Hi, I have a number DS20s (~16) and DS40s (~8) plus (new style & old style) DEC storage arrays with 9GB drives (total > 1TB). Free for pickup in San Jose (ie you come by my storage unit and haul off what you want...sorry no shipping and no delivery). Any of it that's left after 8/23 will be scrapped. They were pulled working years ago, but they've been moved a couple of times so I don't know the actual operating condition. I also don't know what's in 'em (except that they're pretty max'd out) so don't ask about specific configs. Contact me off-list for making arrangements. Thanks. TTFN - Guy From jrr at flippers.com Thu Jul 24 12:11:03 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:11:03 -0700 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <4888B2FB.4050909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> <4888ADCC.1040703@gmail.com> <4888B2FB.4050909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4888B7A7.7000903@flippers.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Al Kossow wrote: >>> leeched from bitsavers >> >> Thanks for the heads-up - I was just about to bookmark their site! >> > Well it can't hurt to have duplicates. I tend to find bitsavers nice > but hard to find stuff if you don't know where to look. > > > I think Al's point is the leech is SELLING copies of the files on CD/DVD - that is doubly offensive as the seller has no permission, nor is he/she giving credit to bitsavers for doing the scanning in the first place. Now if the cost of the CDs was made as a donation to Bitsavers (ducking)... Bitsavers is mirrored to a number of sites - with appropriate credits - that do not charge either. I have no trouble refinding Bitsavers when doing a search on the 'net - if I've lost it in amongst way too many bookmarks... John :-#)# From phil at ultimate.com Thu Jul 24 13:30:02 2008 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <13962.1216913263@mini> Message-ID: <200807241830.m6OIU2tH062596@ultimate.com> Brad Parker wrote: > mmm. it's coming back to me. The pc based tcp/ip work done at > MIT. That was the first tcp/ip on a pc I think This would be Romkey's PC/IP; http://www.apocalypse.org/~romkey/from.html I think the original version handled only a single TCP connection at a time! Romkey went on to co-found FTP Software (whose clients (ie; FTP) bore a charming resemblance to their old-time (PDP-10) counterparts). > The pc/tcp code was ported to the Macintosh (at Dartmouth I think) for > use with the early gateways like the fastpath (and before that the > gateway based on the old SUN - as in Stanford - boards). I think PC/IP was also used as the basis for "NCSA Telnet" on the Mac, which despite it's name, also had an FTP server (there was a hotkey to send an FTP command to establish a connection (back) to the Mac's FTP server). I also seem to recall a PC version of NCSA Telnet. I still have a tote bag from the May 1992 InterOp in Washington D.C. The social was at the Smithsonian Air&Space Museum, and the sponsors (either of the social, or the event) were FTP Software, InterCon, and TGV -- all suppliers of third party TCP/IP (DOS, MacOS, and VMS respectively). My favorite 3rd party MacOS classic TCP/IP tool (probably MacTCP based) was Dartmouth's "Fetch", whose "working on it" active cursor was a running dog. I think someone reincarnated the "Fetch" name in recent history. Neon Software also made TCP/IP tools for the Mac (Apple Supplied only MacTCP-- the transport, but not any tools). The principal was Michael Swan, one of the original principals at Kinetics, orginators of the FastPath (a repackgaing of the Stanford SeaGate, which used a SUN (Stanford University Network) 68000 multibus card, and a hand wired SCC-based AppleTalk (LocalTalk) card. Intercon may have also been founded by one of the Kinetics guys... > The ip-over-appletalk working group inside the IETF was very active in > the late '80s. Ah yes, I remember it well. Shiva and Cayman (Brad's company) were both Boston based, and we joked that the developers of US AppleTalk/IP gateways could be wiped out in a single plane crash. Phil Budne (Shiva FastPath 5 project leader) From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Jul 24 15:25:21 2008 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:25:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for final rev IBM PC/AT roms. Message-ID: Hi, I have a PC/AT that I believe the ROM BIOS has gone bad in. Does anyone here have the final rev (November 1985?) BIOS ROM image around that I can use to check my ROM against and/or burn another copy if need be? I use this machine on a constant basis so to have it running again would be a real boon. Thanks Julian From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Thu Jul 24 20:19:41 2008 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:19:41 -0400 Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars References: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000901c8edf4$8365a920$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Imsai drives were typically Calcomp 140K types, same as DEC used with some PDP's I have the same type for my Imsai. If I recall there were two S100 Cards IFM/IFB?? and in the drive case was a data separator??. I would have to look again.. Dan Snyder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 1:39 AM Subject: Fwd: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars > Looking at the image on the linked page, I'm wondering what kind of a > dual > drive setup that is. Mine doesn't look like that. > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and > Phreaks > Into Stars > Date: Thursday 24 July 2008 00:39 > From: "Steve Gunhouse" > To: "fidoguns at fidoguns.org" > > > > Was it really 25 years ago? > > -- > Steve Gunhouse > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > lies. --James > M Dakin > > From w.reses at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 04:11:36 2008 From: w.reses at yahoo.com (W Reses) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GA Zebra Computers Message-ID: <74342.5150.qm@web59101.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Jay, ? I recently saw your 2007 post about your GA collection. I have a GA 1750 with 1MB of memory, a 60MB Archive tape, 18 ports, and a Maxtor XT-2190 140MB hard drive. I am running GA Pick O/S version 3.8T1 (the latest). I also have the dealer.assy account and the sysgen acount. ? I have written lots of assembly code for multiple Pick platforms. I specialize in on-line, retail point of sale transaction processing which can be done with a combination of Basic, Pick assembler and InfoLinke (or on the PC - Mainlink.II) interfaces. ? I am also interested in obtaining an A200 or related R91 machine. If any of these things are of interest to you, please write me back. Thank you, Wayne From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jul 25 11:43:15 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:43:15 -0300 Subject: The $2500 Ataril 600XL References: <310203.88376.qm@web56213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44f301c8ee75$c9e39a20$0102a8c0@portajara> >Subject: The $2500 Ataril 600XL Whatever this guy is smoking, I want 3 kilos :o) From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 25 11:54:53 2008 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:54:53 -0400 Subject: Scientists decry Bletchley Park's decline | The Register Message-ID: <488A055D.2000301@sbcglobal.net> Demand government action to save Station X http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/24/bletchley_park_appeal/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, >From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 11:50:30 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:50:30 -0500 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <4888B7A7.7000903@flippers.com> References: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> <4888ADCC.1040703@gmail.com> <4888B2FB.4050909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4888B7A7.7000903@flippers.com> Message-ID: <488A0456.3010100@gmail.com> John Robertson wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Al Kossow wrote: >>>> leeched from bitsavers >>> >>> Thanks for the heads-up - I was just about to bookmark their site! >>> >> Well it can't hurt to have duplicates. I tend to find bitsavers nice >> but hard to find stuff if you don't know where to look. >> > I think Al's point is the leech is SELLING copies of the files on CD/DVD Regardless of the selling aspect, the implication was that they hadn't asked Al first before making the content available. Although part of me wants to give them the benefit of the doubt, in that someone may have given them the content and implied that they were the original source of it, rather than bitsavers. I've had no end of folk give me photos and scans with the implication that they did the work, only to find out later that they got it from elsewhere by whatever means. > Bitsavers is mirrored to a number of sites - with appropriate credits - > that do not charge either. I have no trouble refinding Bitsavers when > doing a search on the 'net - if I've lost it in amongst way too many > bookmarks... Finding content on bitsavers can be a bit tricky sometimes though, given that various things are OEMed or sold to different companies over the years, or that the company which made a product can be obscure (such that the product name is well-known but the company is not*, and a scan is logically filed under the company name). Filenames aren't always obvious or immediately intuitive either - but then it can be hard giving a meaningful filename which doesn't end up being huge! * I always seem to do that with OMTI bridge boards whenever I need the manual and don't have my paper copy to hand... [file all of the above under observation, not criticism :-) ] cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 11:58:11 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:58:11 -0500 Subject: Scientists decry Bletchley Park's decline | The Register In-Reply-To: <488A055D.2000301@sbcglobal.net> References: <488A055D.2000301@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <488A0623.8070500@gmail.com> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Demand government action to save Station X > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/24/bletchley_park_appeal/ Appears to be getting a lot of press these last couple of days. There's been coverage of the Times letter in various UK newspapers, plus an article on the BBC news website yesterday and coverage on UK's Radio 4. Prince Charles seems to have given his backing according to the local paper: http://www.mk-news.co.uk/mknews/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=334118 (And for those in the UK / overseas territories / expats, there's a government petition you can 'sign' at: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/BletchleyPark ) cheers Jules From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Jul 25 12:40:49 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:40:49 -0400 Subject: Looking for final rev IBM PC/AT roms Message-ID: <01C8EE5C.19F752A0@host-208-72-122-228.dyn.295.ca> ---------Original Message: Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:25:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Julian Wolfe Subject: Looking for final rev IBM PC/AT roms. Hi, I have a PC/AT that I believe the ROM BIOS has gone bad in. Does anyone here have the final rev (November 1985?) BIOS ROM image around that I can use to check my ROM against and/or burn another copy if need be? I use this machine on a constant basis so to have it running again would be a real boon. Thanks Julian ************* Go to: http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/bios.htm mike From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 25 12:46:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:46:45 -0700 Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars In-Reply-To: <000901c8edf4$8365a920$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> References: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net>, <000901c8edf4$8365a920$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Message-ID: <4889AF15.20281.687F8D@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2008 at 21:19, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Imsai drives were typically Calcomp 140K types, same as DEC used with some > PDP's > I have the same type for my Imsai. If I recall there were two S100 Cards > IFM/IFB?? > and in the drive case was a data separator??. I would have to look again.. 2-board 8080-based controller, 2708 EPROM, 2111-4 SRAMs, independent PSUs, one per drive in the box. A little LED array behind the plexiglas on top of the drives to show status. I don't recall that there was a data separator in the case, however. I've got the docs for the thing somewhere, if it matters. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jul 25 14:04:53 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:04:53 -0800 Subject: Pointless question... References: , <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4887BA29.525.160D455@cclist.sydex.com> <488878CD.6050003@gmail.com> <4888FFB5.CF40B53D@cs.ubc.ca> <000f01c8ee28$c8447010$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <488A23D6.4AD72ADA@cs.ubc.ca> Scanning wrote: > > A reasonable bit rate these days is 100 Gbit / sec with the high dollar lab > stuff pushing into the Terabit range.... > > Chuck, using ECL Gbit stuff is do-able and would shorten the length of the > fibre...? A 1 Meg static RAM just sounds too easy. OK, going with the numbers provided earlier, if the single-delay length required is 2*10^8m/S * 1Mb / 10Mb/S = 2*10^7m = 20,000km and we can get 100Gb/S / 10Mb/S = 10,000 (10Mb/S channels) out of the fibre, then we can reduce the fibre length required to 20,000km / 10,000 = 2 km Just put the spool of fibre out in the garden... From gklinger at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 13:07:59 2008 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:07:59 -0400 Subject: The $2500 Ataril 600XL In-Reply-To: <44f301c8ee75$c9e39a20$0102a8c0@portajara> References: <310203.88376.qm@web56213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <44f301c8ee75$c9e39a20$0102a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: Why is the ad in NY and the item listed as being in Oregon? Something seems off here. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jul 25 13:08:01 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage Computing in San Diego In-Reply-To: <01C8EE5C.19F752A0@host-208-72-122-228.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C8EE5C.19F752A0@host-208-72-122-228.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: I'm going to be in San Diego during the 3rd week in August. Are there any vintage computing sites worth visiting in the general area? Surplus dealers? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jul 25 13:08:23 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:08:23 -0400 Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks Into Stars In-Reply-To: <4889AF15.20281.687F8D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> <000901c8edf4$8365a920$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> <4889AF15.20281.687F8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200807251408.23979.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 25 July 2008 13:46, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Jul 2008 at 21:19, Daniel Snyder wrote: > > Imsai drives were typically Calcomp 140K types, same as DEC used with > > some PDP's I have the same type for my Imsai. If I recall there were two > > S100 Cards IFM/IFB?? and in the drive case was a data separator??. I would > > have to look again.. > > 2-board 8080-based controller, 2708 EPROM, 2111-4 SRAMs, independent > PSUs, one per drive in the box. A little LED array behind the > plexiglas on top of the drives to show status. I don't recall that > there was a data separator in the case, however. I've got the docs > for the thing somewhere, if it matters. It was that little LED array that caught my attention. Blinkelights are cool. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 13:20:00 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:20:00 -0400 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <48896E3E.9070905@brouhaha.com> References: <20080724191307.GA28879@riviera.nuigalway.ie> from Brian Foley at <200807241941.m6OJfDjg021136@floodgap.com> <48896E3E.9070905@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: was FTP Software bought out by Novell, or am I thinking of Xerox ? There's another quagmire of history right there. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jul 25 13:56:39 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:56:39 -0700 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computeron the internet) In-Reply-To: <200807241830.m6OIU2tH062596@ultimate.com> References: <13962.1216913263@mini> <200807241830.m6OIU2tH062596@ultimate.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, July 24, 2008, Phil Budne wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: >> mmm. it's coming back to me. The pc based tcp/ip work done at >> MIT. That was the first tcp/ip on a pc I think > This would be Romkey's PC/IP; > http://www.apocalypse.org/~romkey/from.html > I think the original version handled only a single TCP connection at a time! > Romkey went on to co-found FTP Software (whose clients (ie; FTP) bore > a charming resemblance to their old-time (PDP-10) counterparts). Until they didn't. We had a problem with FTP Software's product on Windows: We could not get a new release to work when attempting to transfer files to anything other than the login directory on a TOPS-20 system. I called them to find out what was going on, and was told that we had the wrong syntax for a TOPS-20 directory specification, and should change our software. This was at XKL. We had purchased the 36-bit intellectual property rights from Digital, all of us had been using TOPS-20 for years--in some cases for decades --and these people were telling *us* that *we* had the syntax wrong. When I insisted that they did not know what they were talking about, and explained why I believed this to be true, their response was to remove TOPS-20 as a possible remote system type from their product rather than to fix the problem. Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From madodel at ptdprolog.net Fri Jul 25 14:15:25 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:15:25 -0400 Subject: Any ideas on how to clear a BIOS password on a Thinkpad 701C? In-Reply-To: <4889519F.1080509@netscape.net> References: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> <4889519F.1080509@netscape.net> Message-ID: <488A264D.3070501@ptdprolog.net> Jim Scheef wrote: > Mark, > > Are there just pads or are there pins on those pads? When I finally got it disassembled to the point of removing the lower mainboard, there really weren't any pads. Just a small device that looked like it might be a PROM at the place marked on the layout in the pdf I have. So I tried shorting that out. But it wouldn't boot. Then when I tried to put it all back together the display case cracked on both sides where the hinges are. The plastic case is very brittle and breaks way too easily. I've given up on this one for now. I have another 701c that I am now working on getting running. It was working but now all I get is a couple beeps and then it asks for a floppy. Its such a nifty looking little machine. Its a shame its all plastic. Hopefully I have a lot less problems disassembling and re-assembling my daughter's Macbook Pro in a couple of weeks when I have to do a drive upgrade for her. :-P At least with an aluminum case it shouldn't fall apart when I try to put it back together. > On a normal MB the > procedure to drain the CMOS is to short the pins with a standard jumper. > Try shorting the pins for 15 minutes with no power. If that has no > effect, try power with the pins shorted. This is quite a crap shoot. > Some MBs require a jumper on similar pins to enable a BIOS update so > there is no universal procedure. I know and the only mention in the docs is to call IBM service. That was why I asked here before trying it. > > BTW, I bought a 701c as well. Mine is pretty rough. The battery pack was > swollen and leaking so I need to open up the case and do some cleaning > before I get to see if I have the same problem. > > I guess you haven't gotten to the point where you find out if Warp has > the drivers for the 701c or not. Let me know what you find. Warp should support the 701c. I don't know if the 701c ever came preloaded with OS/2 though. All the ones I see on eBay have win 3.1 or win95 on them. But of course you will need the external floppy drive to install it and a copy of Warp that is on 3.5in floppies. I'll have to get a copy of Warp on floppies at InfoAge next time I'm there. Or I can build the floppies from the CD I have here if I can dredge up enough diskettes. > > Also... the CMOS backup battery is soldered? It's not a nice replaceable > button battery that you can just pop out and replace? Oh joy. > Yes the one on the lower board is soldered. Mark From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 14:30:07 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:30:07 -0400 Subject: Any ideas on how to clear a BIOS password on a Thinkpad 701C? In-Reply-To: <488A264D.3070501@ptdprolog.net> References: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> <4889519F.1080509@netscape.net> <488A264D.3070501@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <488A29BF.4020408@gmail.com> madodel wrote: > I have another 701c that I am now working on getting running. It was > working but now all I get is a couple beeps and then it asks for a > floppy. Its such a nifty looking little machine. Its a shame its all > plastic. Couple of beeps followed by floppy-prompt is IBMese for "no bootable device found". Sounds like there either isn't a proper boot sector on the hard drive, or the hard drive is dead. Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Jul 25 12:53:01 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:53:01 -0400 Subject: Looking for final rev IBM PC/AT roms Message-ID: <01C8EE5D.C2CF64C0@MSE_D03> ISP trouble; sorry if this is duplicated. mike ---------Original Message: Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:25:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Julian Wolfe Subject: Looking for final rev IBM PC/AT roms. Hi, I have a PC/AT that I believe the ROM BIOS has gone bad in. Does anyone here have the final rev (November 1985?) BIOS ROM image around that I can use to check my ROM against and/or burn another copy if need be? I use this machine on a constant basis so to have it running again would be a real boon. Thanks Julian ************* Go to: http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/bios.htm mike From madodel at ptdprolog.net Fri Jul 25 14:55:10 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:55:10 -0400 Subject: Any ideas on how to clear a BIOS password on a Thinkpad 701C? In-Reply-To: <488A29BF.4020408@gmail.com> References: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> <4889519F.1080509@netscape.net> <488A264D.3070501@ptdprolog.net> <488A29BF.4020408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488A2F9E.5000306@ptdprolog.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > madodel wrote: >> I have another 701c that I am now working on getting running. It was >> working but now all I get is a couple beeps and then it asks for a >> floppy. Its such a nifty looking little machine. Its a shame its all >> plastic. > > Couple of beeps followed by floppy-prompt is IBMese for "no bootable > device found". > > Sounds like there either isn't a proper boot sector on the hard drive, > or the hard drive is dead. > That was my guess, but both drives I have had worked earlier in the day in the same machine. But the caddies they are in are plastic and maybe are warped or maybe the IDE connector inside the machine has a bent pin, but I can't see anything obvious. Mark From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 15:14:23 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:14:23 -0400 Subject: Any ideas on how to clear a BIOS password on a Thinkpad 701C? In-Reply-To: <488A2F9E.5000306@ptdprolog.net> References: <48850D96.1050409@ptdprolog.net> <4889519F.1080509@netscape.net> <488A264D.3070501@ptdprolog.net> <488A29BF.4020408@gmail.com> <488A2F9E.5000306@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <488A341F.1070904@gmail.com> madodel wrote: >>> I have another 701c that I am now working on getting running. It was >>> working but now all I get is a couple beeps and then it asks for a >>> floppy. Its such a nifty looking little machine. Its a shame its >>> all plastic. >> >> Couple of beeps followed by floppy-prompt is IBMese for "no bootable >> device found". >> >> Sounds like there either isn't a proper boot sector on the hard drive, >> or the hard drive is dead. > > That was my guess, but both drives I have had worked earlier in the day > in the same machine. But the caddies they are in are plastic and maybe > are warped or maybe the IDE connector inside the machine has a bent pin, > but I can't see anything obvious. Could be a misconfigured BIOS. Try running the SPSD. Peace... Sridhar From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jul 25 16:00:06 2008 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:00:06 -0700 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: (Dan Gahlinger's message of "Fri\, 25 Jul 2008 14\:20\:00 -0400") References: <20080724191307.GA28879@riviera.nuigalway.ie> <200807241941.m6OJfDjg021136@floodgap.com> <48896E3E.9070905@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200807252100.m6PL06uj082141@lots.reanimators.org> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > was FTP Software bought out by Novell, or am I thinking of Xerox ? > There's another quagmire of history right there. Netmanage. I used to work for The Wollongong Group, who I think were the first company to rework MIT PC-IP as a commercial product (WIN/PC). (I didn't get involved with the PC stuff, except on the other side of yelling matches, until about 1994. So you can blame me for WIN/TCP for MPE/V and PathWay Runtime 4.0.) The story I've been told by the guy who did the WIN/PC work is that some of the PC-IP folks saw the advertisement which confirmed the commercial potential they had suspected, started FTP Software, and found a really good deal on some three-ring binders which happened to be green. The first part of that fits with John Romkey's story. -Frank McConnell From devonstopps at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 16:21:19 2008 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:21:19 -0400 Subject: AIX 3.2 Weird Networking Problem Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20080725171224.0214dbb8@pop.gmail.com> Definitely the right netmask, and seems to be the right interface (en0) - although, as a side note, can you explain the difference between this and the et0 interface? No problems with any other system in the building. I've set up many a solaris or linux box with no problems. arp -a shows nothing interesting, just another system I ftp'd into - have tried adding a static entry for the gateway, with no luck: ? (xxx.xx.132.118) at 0:b0:d0:26:7b:5d [ethernet] the netstat -rn (x's added, obviously): Routing tables Destination Gateway Flags Refcnt Use Interface Netmasks: (root node) (0)0 ff00 0 (0)0 ffff ff00 0 (root node) Route Tree for Protocol Family 2: (root node) default xxx.xx.132.1 UG 0 472 en0 127 127.0.0.1 U 50 340667 lo0 xxx.xx.132 xxx.xx.132.191 U 11 1773 en0 (root node) Route Tree for Protocol Family 6: (root node) (root node) T.H.x. Devon From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jul 25 22:45:29 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 23:45:29 -0400 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <488A0456.3010100@gmail.com> References: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> <4888ADCC.1040703@gmail.com> <4888B2FB.4050909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4888B7A7.7000903@flippers.com> <488A0456.3010100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488A9DD9.9020408@comcast.net> >>> >>>> Al Kossow wrote: >>>>> leeched from bitsavers Al, I noticed from the WHOIS that there's 1 yr left on your domain after 8 yrs. ___Please____ don't let it expire :) =Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 23:18:07 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:18:07 -0700 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: <4888B7A9.2000707@brouhaha.com> References: , <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov>, <4887AFEA.2080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <4887872F.31052.99B49C@cclist.sydex.com> <000d01c8ed4b$467e94d0$0301a8c0@hal9000> <4888B7A9.2000707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:11:05 -0700> From: eric at brouhaha.com> To: > Subject: Re: Pointless question...> > Scanning wrote:> > It has to be done in hardware otherwise why bother. If you want the respect> > and awe of the group show us your gravitas and use a spool of fibre optic> > cable as the "media" and blink your data in through an LED or LASER diode.> > Storing 1 Mbit at 10 MHz in a spool of fiber would definitely inspire > awe of a sort, but perhaps not the kind you had in mind. You'll > definitely need lasers, not LEDs, and you'll have to splice an optical > amplifier into the spool for every few km of fiber. Just dealing with > the power consumption would be non-trivial. Got a substation next door?> > Eric Hi Why does everyone think that the bits need to be stored sequencially. One could pack a lot more bits into a shorter cable and interleave the bits. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger2_072008 From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Jul 26 01:00:27 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:30:27 +0930 Subject: Pointless question... In-Reply-To: References: <4888B7A9.2000707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200807261530.27505.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> > Hi > Why does everyone think that the bits need to be stored sequencially. > One could pack a lot more bits into a shorter cable and interleave the > bits. > Dwight Sounds like the IBM 650. Alexis. From broswell at syssrc.com Fri Jul 25 15:18:49 2008 From: broswell at syssrc.com (Bob Roswell) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:18:49 -0400 Subject: Anybody know details on this diode matrix patch panel? Message-ID: <15BDDC14871D2A49BFCEEEF409EB2983060E0865@exchange.syssrcad.syssrc.com> Hello all, I have an old memory patch panel, probably a diode matrix. Estimated to be from the early 60's, maybe IBM? Pictures are at http://i36.tinypic.com/29paqfb.jpg http://i37.tinypic.com/2h6tzd5.jpg http://i34.tinypic.com/51wl6h.jpg I have 3 kinds of diode plugs that fit in the sockets It has white plugs with one type of diode in it. It has brown plugs with a different type of diode in it It has grey plugs that will be a short. So it appears that each location can have one of four values open, short, diode1 or diode2. I am interested to find out more about this - any information such as documentation, model, or what it belonged to would be helpful. Thanks! Bob Roswell broswell at syssrc.com Bob Roswell System Source broswell at syssrc.com (410) 771-5544 ext 4336 From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jul 25 17:15:04 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:15:04 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computing in San Diego In-Reply-To: References: <01C8EE5C.19F752A0@host-208-72-122-228.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <488A5068.2050604@jwsss.com> Surplus dealers: this is a nice list someone made up http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_surplus_us.html To answer directly though Industrial Liquidators 4887 Convoy St. san diego san diego electrniocs supply 8148 ronson rd san diego http://www.sdelectronicsupply.com/ (ex gateway employee run. I have not visited) Murphy's Electronic 401 N Johnson Ave. El Cajon, CA 92020 http://www.murphyjunk.com/ I think there is another junk store near murphys but I dont recall the address, and dont' have it handy. gateway electronics is closed in san diego, only open in st. Louis now. I dont know if the replacement above is a surplus business or not. Jim Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm going to be in San Diego during the 3rd week in August. Are > there any vintage computing sites worth visiting in the general area? > Surplus dealers? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > From evan at snarc.net Sat Jul 26 01:33:50 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:33:50 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computing in San Diego In-Reply-To: <488A5068.2050604@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <006d01c8eee9$92759830$f750f945@evan> Used to be: http://www.computer-museum.org/ -----Original Message----- From: jim s [mailto:jws at jwsss.com] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:15 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Vintage Computing in San Diego Surplus dealers: this is a nice list someone made up http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_surplus_us.html To answer directly though Industrial Liquidators 4887 Convoy St. san diego san diego electrniocs supply 8148 ronson rd san diego http://www.sdelectronicsupply.com/ (ex gateway employee run. I have not visited) Murphy's Electronic 401 N Johnson Ave. El Cajon, CA 92020 http://www.murphyjunk.com/ I think there is another junk store near murphys but I dont recall the address, and dont' have it handy. gateway electronics is closed in san diego, only open in st. Louis now. I dont know if the replacement above is a surplus business or not. Jim Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm going to be in San Diego during the 3rd week in August. Are > there any vintage computing sites worth visiting in the general area? > Surplus dealers? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jul 26 03:58:29 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:58:29 +0100 Subject: Old data books online In-Reply-To: <4888B7A7.7000903@flippers.com> References: <4887BA76.7070101@bitsavers.org> <4888ADCC.1040703@gmail.com> <4888B2FB.4050909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4888B7A7.7000903@flippers.com> Message-ID: <488AE735.7060301@gjcp.net> John Robertson wrote: l's point is the leech is SELLING copies of the files on CD/DVD > - that is doubly offensive as the seller has no permission, nor is > he/she giving credit to bitsavers for doing the scanning in the first > place. Now if the cost of the CDs was made as a donation to Bitsavers > (ducking)... So how do we know they came from bitsavers? MD5sums? Gordon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 07:53:09 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:53:09 -0400 Subject: Anybody know details on this diode matrix patch panel? In-Reply-To: <15BDDC14871D2A49BFCEEEF409EB2983060E0865@exchange.syssrcad.syssrc.com> References: <15BDDC14871D2A49BFCEEEF409EB2983060E0865@exchange.syssrcad.syssrc.com> Message-ID: > I have an old memory patch panel, probably a diode matrix. Estimated to > > be from the early 60's, maybe IBM? This is most likely from a large test set for some sort of electronics, probably for testing something just after fabrication on the line. These diode patch panels were part of the setup done to get the set to test specific tubes/transistors/ICs/assemblies. -- Will From gstreet at indy.net Sat Jul 26 12:50:27 2008 From: gstreet at indy.net (Robert) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:50:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Scientists decry Bletchley Park's decline | The Register Message-ID: <3177723.1217094627334.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I went to the Bletchly Park website and tried to make a small donation (even though I realize the USD only half the value of the Pound). After attempting to create an account, they were supposed to email me a password so I could properly login. I'm not sure why they've not yet send a password, since it did not seem to indicate that folks outside of Britian could not contribute. I can only hope that so many are trying to donate that it's overloaded their servers -- but I'm sure that's a pipe dream... It would at least be nice for the Yanks to show their support. Regards, Robert Greenstreet From jzg22 at drexel.edu Sat Jul 26 20:34:10 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:34:10 -0400 Subject: Looking for final rev IBM PC/AT roms. In-Reply-To: <200807261701.m6QH1KKD063953@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200807261701.m6QH1KKD063953@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <488BD092.1000108@drexel.edu> cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Go to: > > http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/bios.htm > > mike The PC 5150 revision 2 (10/19/81) dump on that site is bad (first few bytes are correct but the rest is garbage?). I have a good copy here (thanks, Jim Leonard and billdeg from http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ ) though I don't have the proper chip numbers from it. Speaking of AT 5170, if the rtc clock crystal from an AT is missing/cut off, will it boot at all, or will the RTC chip hold the PIT (and CPU) in reset forever? -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From us21090 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 21:18:15 2008 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 Obtronix Message-ID: <842683.37815.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The next step in my evil plan... For various reasons I'm selling my Apple 1 Reproduction from Obtronix. Ebay auction: 290247234821 , ie, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&&item=290247234821 Scott From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jul 26 02:16:47 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:16:47 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computing in San Diego In-Reply-To: <006d01c8eee9$92759830$f750f945@evan> References: <006d01c8eee9$92759830$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <488ACF5F.4030804@jwsss.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Used to be: http://www.computer-museum.org/ > I think they jacked his rent up and ran him out (he has been closed for some time). I think that there is an expansion of the model train museum there in the space there now. I will see if there has been any contact with the original owner, as he had some things in his collection that matched things in a friends collection and they had exchanged info. I'll post if there is any word where the collection is other than what is on the web site, or perhaps someone on the list may know as well. The zoo is excellent to visit if you are there, as is the Fleet museum. Also if it is a postcard clear day, visit point loma's museum, the views of North Island are fantastic. However on topic, El Cajon may have more junk stores, I just can't find them online, sorry. Jim From josecvalle at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 08:57:08 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:57:08 -0300 Subject: Vintage Computing in San Diego In-Reply-To: References: <01C8EE5C.19F752A0@host-208-72-122-228.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: Mike HI I am from Brazil.. I have a Computer Museum... I have 1 box of IBM original blank card. and a lot of old computers.. around 15.000 pcs.. like books, computers.. Is close, right now, I need i big space and some sponsor and money.. In Brazil nobody care about to preserve the history. but I survive to make some events in show.. like Comdex..in old times. Let me know your adress I will send you some cards.. Jose carlos Valle http://computermuseumbrazil.blogspot.com 2008/7/25 Mike Loewen > > I'm going to be in San Diego during the 3rd week in August. Are there > any vintage computing sites worth visiting in the general area? Surplus > dealers? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > -- Jos? Carlos Valle ? Presidente curador www.museudocomputador.com.br Blog do curador:--HTTP://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com Tel office: 011 4666-7545 - celular prov: 8794-6730 Tel skype 3013-3946 - "Tudo posso naquele que fortalece, Felipenses 4:13" From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jul 26 12:21:44 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 18:21:44 +0100 Subject: IBM System 360 Mod 70 info In-Reply-To: <4885089D.9030503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4884EF1D.9060002@bitsavers.org>, <6.2.3.4.2.20080721155246.066d7280@mail.threedee.com> <4884A31B.31643.15E7431@cclist.sydex.com> <4885089D.9030503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <488B5D28.3030801@axeside.co.uk> >> Who wrote ""the first 50 percent of a project takes 90 percent of >> the time. The remaining 50 percent of the project takes the other >> 90 percent of the time."? Not from TMMM, I know. >> >> Cheers, Chuck >> >> > I thought that was 10% rather than 50%. I agree about the 10%. I know it as the Ninety-ninety Rule of Project Schedules. "The first 90% of the work takes the first 90% of the time. The last 10% takes the other 90%." I can't remember where I encountered it. It was either in the magazine "Micrcomputer Printout" that flourished in the UK from 1978 to 1983, or in one of the paperback "Murphy's Law" books. In either case that was early 1980s, and the joke wasn't new then. Philip. From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Sun Jul 27 12:06:28 2008 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:06:28 +0200 Subject: VERY Old RDB Manuals (V2.3) wanted! Message-ID: RDB V2.3 (or any other Version 2.x or 3.x) manuals wanted to borrow, buy oder trade for hobbyist use. Genuine manuals, copies or files (pdf/tiff/...), anything is welcome! Regards Ulli From fire at dls.net Sun Jul 27 13:48:19 2008 From: fire at dls.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:48:19 -0500 Subject: Old computers available Message-ID: <60255.1217184499@dls.net> Dear CC readers, I have decided to divest myself of a number of older computers. Some may be interesting to folks on the list. I live near Chicago, items can be picked up for free. Only item I may sell are the Q-Bus SCSI cards, the rest is available for free. S-100 machines free for pick-up Three dual 8" drive units One iOmega dual 8" Bernoulli cartridge disk system Three CompuPro System 8/16 chassis, One unknown S-100 chassis One chassis with power supply (no boards) Two empty chassis One large box of 8" disks, One medium box of iOmega Bernoulli cartridges, Several boxes of assorted S-100 cards, cables, documentation, IBM J30 with J01 expansion chassis This is an 8-way 75MHz PowerPC machine built around the MicroChannel bus HalStation 375 HalStation 385 with 3GB RAM Wang Word Processor Model 1220 Evans & Sutherland PS-390 MicroVax II Two KZQSA Q-Bus SCSI cards ($$$ make offer) Maxtor 190MB hard drive DEC RD53A drive DataTech CM6426 DEC RH12E drive TK50 tape drive TK70 tape drive Complete Apple IIc system CPU, color monitor Commodore 128D Four Commodore 64 Four Commodor 1541 drives TRS-80 Model I Technical Manual (578-2980090) TRS-80 Color computer Two TRS-80 Color computer II Two Apple II+ Two Apple IIe Several of the black Apple disk drives Complete Apple IIGS system One 3.5" drive Three 5 1/4" drives Cassette drive System Saver IIGS Apple IIGS Technical Reference Vol 1-3 Apple Pascal Learning Apple Pascal Apple IIGS Reference (binder) Apple IIGS Color monitor Keyboard, mouse, Other programming books and material From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 27 15:39:45 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:39:45 +0100 Subject: Floating-point numbers (on the Amiga) Message-ID: <000701c8f028$fc54c0b0$bcfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Hi, I am trying (and failing) to learn how AMOS Basic (and Amiga's) store floating point numbers. Whilst it is clear that it uses Motorola Fast Floating Point (MFPP) I have been unable to get it to work based on an equation found online (the Amiga RKRM's all say to use the FPP functions in the maths libraries, and also confirm the layout - 24 bit mantissa, 1bit sign, 7bit exponent). Am I doing something wrong with my maths?? Formula: FP result =[(-1)^SIGN] * [2^(EXP - 0x40)] * [MANTISSA / 0x1000000] 0x1000000 = 16,777,216 0x40=64 floating-point variable value=0.5 Binary value of variable=%10000000 00000000 00000000 01000000 Values calculated using formula (above): SIGN=0 (positive) EXPONENT=64 - 64 (bias) = 0 MANTISSA=2.51658 E+07 / 16,777,216 = 1.5 Thus: result = [(-1)^SIGN] * [2^(EXP - 0x40)] * [MANTISSA / 0x1000000] = [(-1)^0]*[2^(0)]*[1.5] = 1*1*1.5 = 1.5! I have uploaded a bitmap image of my maths to my site if it isn't clear from above what I am doing. http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/MFPP_problem.bmp Please help! Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 21:05:26 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 03:05:26 +0100 Subject: Best OS for an IBM Butterfly (was: Any ideas on how to clear a BIOS password on a Thinkpad 701C?) Message-ID: <575131af0807271905t2a29f348k71d44590b3cc94c0@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/25 madodel : > Warp should support the 701c. I don't know if the 701c ever came preloaded > with OS/2 though. All the ones I see on eBay have win 3.1 or win95 on them. > But of course you will need the external floppy drive to install it and a > copy of Warp that is on 3.5in floppies. I'll have to get a copy of Warp on > floppies at InfoAge next time I'm there. Or I can build the floppies from > the CD I have here if I can dredge up enough diskettes. Just FYI... I did get Warp 3 working on my Butterfly. I have a SCSI CD-ROM for mine with a PCMCIA SCSI host adaptor; the OS/2 setup disks couldn't see this. I do have a floppy drive, though. So what I did was pull the HD, connect it to a desktop machine, and copy the installation CD to a folder of the same pathname on the HD. The ideal is to have a boot drive, then another partition with the install files on - that way, it /thinks/ it's looking at a CD drive that is [boot drive+1]. I think the way mine was set up was that I had a smallish FAT16 C drive with Win95OSR2 on it, then a logical drive for OS/2, then a 2GB FAT16 data drive to share between them. You need to keep C: in FAT16; the suspend/resume code is part of the BIOS and it reads/writes FAT16 directly, without using an OS. If you use any other filesystem, the BIOS can't read it and you lose suspend/resume. I think it whinges at you each boot, too. This is some 10y ago now - I couldn't swear to it being Warp 3. I think it was. IIRC, it worked OK - it found the PCMCIA slots, it understood power management and sound. However, I never got the screen working. It's only a VGA-res screen but it should run in 32K colours, maybe even truecolour, and it should be able to drive an external monitor at 1024x768 or maybe even 1280x1024. However I could never get OS/2 to recognise the chipset, which is some kind of Cirrus Logic one from memory. I also tried Linux on mine. Debian was, as ever, a battle, but it did run. SuSE worked fine but was sluggish and barely fit on my ~700M drive. I also ran Win98SE, NT4 and Windows 2000. I cut down Win98 *hard* with 98Lite, removing anything that wasn't absolutely essential, such as Internet Explorer & all the other Internet tools, but it was still notably slower than Win95. A pain since I had to use Laplink to get it on there and it was a slow process. NT4 worked fine and drove both PCMCIA slots, but it can't do plug&play in any useful way and has no power management, so it's not ideal. Win2K worked amazingly well, considering, but was e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y slow. I got power management & PnP, but it was unusable. (FWIW, my Butterfly has 40MB RAM, an unofficial upgrade and the max its planar can recognise. I also replaced its HD with first a 700MB and then a 4GB one. The BIOS displayed this as something like a D92MB drive, lapsing into hex as it didn't expect more than 3 digits, but it worked fine, including suspend-to-disk.) In my experience - which was fairly considerable; this was my main notebook from about 1996 to 2000 or 2001 - Win95B is the best OS for the Butterfly. Performance is good, all the hardware works fine, battery life is decent as power management works, and it's easy to get working. There's a few updates to apply - WinSock 2, DUN 1.3, stuff like that - but it's easy enough to get working. You can keep C: small and efficient - <512MB - and have a nice big FAT32 D: for apps and data. IE5.5 works well but Opera was for most purposes better. Suitable apps are MS Office 95, with the 97 import filters, Acrobat 4 or 5, some lightweight email client - maybe Pegasus or Eudora; I used Ameol (www.ameol.com) - and so on. It even has a good stab at running Doom! The main limitations of W95 are actually fairly few. Don't press it hard and it's quite stable. It can only understand 4 IP addresses; I had a NIC and a modem card, plus the internal modem, and also ran the AOL client for international dial-up, and that maxed out my available IPs. (This is why I tried W98, which does not have this limit, but 98 was too much for a 40MB 486.) W95's PnP is flakey; it took me a *lot* of fiddling to find stable combinations of 2 PCMCIA cards and I had to apply various patches and updates concerning the PCMCIA controller chip to get it working. It was often a case of power down, insert 1 specific card in 1 specific slot, power up, then insert 2nd specific card in 2nd specific slot, that sort of thing. In the end, though, I had it working stably and reliably with either 56K dial-up+SCSI or NIC+SCSI, but it was too much hassle for daily use so I mainly just used a single card at a time. It's a *lot* easier to get Win95 running than OS/2, which was a battle, as it all too often is. I plan to resurrect the machine with a new battery, replace its crashed 4GB hard disk (a large heavy book fell on the machine when it was running; the HD died, the laptop was fine) with a CF card in an adaptor, and try to bring it back to life. I may have another bash at OS/2 - it would feel artistically /right/ to run an IBM OS on this classic IBM machine. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dgreelish at mac.com Sun Jul 27 12:38:29 2008 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:38:29 -0400 Subject: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! Message-ID: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> The IBM System/36 was a minicomputer series marketed by IBM from 1983 to 2000, see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System/36 A local businessman contacted me about getting rid of his installation. I live just south of Jacksonville, FL, the machine is in Switzerland, FL - http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Switzerland%2C%20FL&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl He has a unit 5360, with a 5224 line printer, and two 5291 terminals. Here's some pics I found online - http://www.corestore.org/36.htm Please contact me directly if interested and I'll put you in touch. I do not subscribe to the list. Best, David David Greelish Classic Computing We fix Mac's and PC's! 904-537-5192 classiccomputing.com From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Jul 27 23:40:49 2008 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:40:49 +0100 Subject: Floating-point numbers (on the Amiga) In-Reply-To: <000701c8f028$fc54c0b0$bcfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <000701c8f028$fc54c0b0$bcfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <1217220049.30368.9.camel@entasis> Andrew, Where does the 2.51658E+07 come from? The mantissa of %10000000 00000000 00000000 = 8388608 which would come out right. Is the "Binary value of variable" what you actually see (by looking at memory) for a variable which is printed as 0.5? Is there something going on with normalisation, where the top "1" bit is assumed and omitted? If the value had been 1.5 and your calculation worked out as 0.5 that would be an explanation, so maybe I'm interpreting this backwards. Lawrence On Sun, 2008-07-27 at 21:39 +0100, Andrew Burton wrote: > Hi, > > I am trying (and failing) to learn how AMOS Basic (and Amiga's) store floating point numbers. Whilst it is clear that it uses Motorola Fast Floating Point (MFPP) I have been unable to get it to work based on an equation found online (the Amiga RKRM's all say to use the FPP functions in the maths libraries, and also confirm the layout - 24 bit mantissa, 1bit sign, 7bit exponent). > Am I doing something wrong with my maths?? > > > Formula: > > FP result =[(-1)^SIGN] * [2^(EXP - 0x40)] * [MANTISSA / 0x1000000] > > > 0x1000000 = 16,777,216 > 0x40=64 > floating-point variable value=0.5 > Binary value of variable=%10000000 00000000 00000000 01000000 > > > Values calculated using formula (above): > SIGN=0 (positive) > EXPONENT=64 - 64 (bias) = 0 > MANTISSA=2.51658 E+07 / 16,777,216 = 1.5 > > Thus: > > result = [(-1)^SIGN] * [2^(EXP - 0x40)] * [MANTISSA / 0x1000000] > = [(-1)^0]*[2^(0)]*[1.5] > = 1*1*1.5 > = 1.5! > > I have uploaded a bitmap image of my maths to my site if it isn't clear from above what I am doing. > > http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/MFPP_problem.bmp > > > Please help! > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 00:43:23 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:43:23 -0500 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker Message-ID: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> As long as the rule is "no smoking in the machine room:" http://www.archive.org/details/tobacco_jmu03f00 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jul 28 00:58:36 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:58:36 -0700 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com> Jason T wrote: > As long as the rule is "no smoking in the machine room:" Who says there's no smoking in the machine room? One of the largest computer systems ever built, the AN/FSQ-7, had operator consoles with built-in ashtrays. From wayne.smith at charter.net Mon Jul 28 02:09:43 2008 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:09:43 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computing in San Diego In-Reply-To: <200807261700.m6QH0XlU063890@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20080728071359.SPKR7436.aarprv04.charter.net@WaynePC> You missed a prime opportunity for double geekdom - Comic-con was this weekend. If you attend Comic-con and VCF in the same year you achieve the rare Geek Half-Slam. I am half way there. > Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:08:01 -0400 (EDT) > From: Mike Loewen > Subject: Vintage Computing in San Diego > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > I'm going to be in San Diego during the 3rd week in > August. Are there > any vintage computing sites worth visiting in the general > area? Surplus > dealers? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jul 28 03:05:45 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 03:05:45 -0500 Subject: Wang 2200 in Portsmouth, England Message-ID: <488D7DD9.1030904@pacbell.net> This is a message that I sent out during the classiccmp blackout in early july. I didn't realize at the time that the message wasn't delivered. Here it is again: I received an email today from a gentleman in Portsmouth. He said it was OK to share the message with the list. (begin quote) Hiya im due to pick up a wang 2200 from one of my relatives houses as my grandad has recently passed away and was wondering if you know anyone in the uk either portsmouth or liverpool that might be interested in it. It is a Wang 2200 A which comes with a cassette drive built into the screen/keyboard, a separate CPU, a separate power supply and a separate I/O unit. I have found some manuals. They are a Wang Basic Language Ref Manual, A Wang System 2200 STATS/Engineering General program library & a Matematics general program library. There are also 3 cassette albums each containing about 12 cassettes with various programs and one game. Whether these work or not is unknown. As far as i know it was working before it was put in the loft 12 months ago. Regards malcolm (end quote) I know he would like some money for it, but I'm not sure what his expectations are. I don't think he knows either. :-) It would be hard to set a price on it as these systems appear on ebay rarely, and also he doesn't know whether it is functional. If you are interested, email me and I'll forward his contact information to you (frustum at pacbell.net). I don't want to post his email address for fear of email address bots might pick it up. I don't care if they get mine though. I'll also send along a couple small photos of the system. The 2200 came out in the early 70s and was Wang's first successful general purpose computer. The BASIC interpreter was written in microcode, and systems had from 4KB to 32KB of RAM. You can visit my site, www.wang2200.org, to get more information about this family of computers. Malcolm said that this is a Wang 2200A, which would make it very early, but many of these machines had board upgrades, turning them into later model machines. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jul 28 06:27:23 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com> References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > Jason T wrote: >> As long as the rule is "no smoking in the machine room:" > > Who says there's no smoking in the machine room? One of the largest computer > systems ever built, the AN/FSQ-7, had operator consoles with built-in > ashtrays. ...and cigarette lighters! http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Ashtray.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jul 28 09:24:25 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:24:25 -0400 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200807281024.26178.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 28 July 2008 07:27, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > > Jason T wrote: > >> As long as the rule is "no smoking in the machine room:" > > > > Who says there's no smoking in the machine room? One of the largest > > computer systems ever built, the AN/FSQ-7, had operator consoles with > > built-in ashtrays. > > ...and cigarette lighters! > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Ashtray.jpg What was the rotary dial in that pic for? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jul 28 09:30:20 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: <200807281024.26178.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com> <200807281024.26178.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 28 July 2008 07:27, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> ...and cigarette lighters! >> >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Ashtray.jpg > > What was the rotary dial in that pic for? Telephone. The long, narrow recess under the ashtray was where the handset lived. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jul 28 09:39:06 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:39:06 -0400 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> <200807281024.26178.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200807281039.06240.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 28 July 2008 10:30, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 28 July 2008 07:27, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> ...and cigarette lighters! > >> > >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Ashtray.jpg > > > > What was the rotary dial in that pic for? > > Telephone. The long, narrow recess under the ashtray was where the > handset lived. Ah. I thought I'd remembered them being used for other purposes, on some equipment or other... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jul 28 09:38:12 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:38:12 -0400 Subject: Old computers available In-Reply-To: <60255.1217184499@dls.net> References: <60255.1217184499@dls.net> Message-ID: <200807281038.13149.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 July 2008 14:48, Bradley Slavik wrote: > Dear CC readers, > > I have decided to divest myself of a number of older computers. > Some may be interesting to folks on the list. I live near Chicago, > items can be picked up for free. Only item I may sell are the > Q-Bus SCSI cards, the rest is available for free. I'd tried to reply to this offlist, but for some reason it bounced... Dang, ?I'd be interersted in some of this stuff, ?but I'm not anywhere near you and don't know how much I could afford to spend on shipping, ?even if that were an option. I'd like to acquire more S-100 stuff, ?and the c= stuff is also of interest. ? And, ?I have a IIgs system but no docs or SW at all, ?so the books you mention are also very much of interest as well. ?What's "system saver"? > S-100 machines free for pick-up > > Three dual 8" drive units > One iOmega dual 8" Bernoulli cartridge disk system > Three CompuPro System 8/16 chassis, > One unknown S-100 chassis > One chassis with power supply (no boards) > Two empty chassis > One large box of 8" disks, > One medium box of iOmega Bernoulli cartridges, > Several boxes of assorted S-100 cards, > cables, documentation, > > IBM J30 with J01 expansion chassis > This is an 8-way 75MHz PowerPC > machine built around the MicroChannel bus > > HalStation 375 > HalStation 385 with 3GB RAM > > Wang Word Processor Model 1220 > > Evans & Sutherland PS-390 > > MicroVax II > Two KZQSA Q-Bus SCSI cards ($$$ make offer) > Maxtor 190MB hard drive > DEC RD53A drive > DataTech CM6426 > DEC RH12E drive > TK50 tape drive > TK70 tape drive > > Complete Apple IIc system > CPU, color monitor > > Commodore 128D > Four Commodore 64 > Four Commodor 1541 drives > > TRS-80 Model I Technical Manual (578-2980090) > TRS-80 Color computer > Two TRS-80 Color computer II > Two Apple II+ > Two Apple IIe > Several of the black Apple disk drives > > Complete Apple IIGS system > One 3.5" drive > Three 5 1/4" drives > Cassette drive > System Saver IIGS > Apple IIGS Technical Reference Vol 1-3 > Apple Pascal > Learning Apple Pascal > Apple IIGS Reference (binder) > Apple IIGS Color monitor > Keyboard, mouse, > Other programming books and material -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 09:48:47 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:48:47 -0500 Subject: Teledisk archive format Message-ID: <488DDC4F.6010801@gmail.com> Hi all, What's the current status as to the copyright and reverse-engineering of Teledisk's archive format? I have a feeling that someone was working on documenting the file format, but that the copyright is still owned by some company or other (not Sydex any more)? cheers Jules From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jul 28 10:12:12 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:12:12 -0400 Subject: Teledisk archive format References: <488DDC4F.6010801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18573.57804.185730.400024@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Hi all, Jules> What's the current status as to the copyright and Jules> reverse-engineering of Teledisk's archive format? I have a Jules> feeling that someone was working on documenting the file Jules> format, but that the copyright is still owned by some company Jules> or other (not Sydex any more)? Does that matter? Copyright doesn't keep others from documenting the file format. paul From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jul 28 11:31:14 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:31:14 -0500 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488DDC4F.6010801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net> > What's the current status as to the copyright and reverse-engineering of > Teledisk's archive format? I have a feeling that someone was working on > documenting the file format, but that the copyright is still owned by some > company or other (not Sydex any more)? When I did my TD02IMD utility for ImageDisk, I dug into the TeleDisk format fairly deeply. My notes on the format are available on my web page, go to the Disks/Software images section linked near the end of the main page, then click on "TeleDisk" under "Transfer Utilities" - There's a link to my notes on that page. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 28 10:55:27 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:55:27 -0600 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: <200807281024.26178.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com> <200807281024.26178.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <488DEBEF.3080008@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 28 July 2008 07:27, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>> Jason T wrote: >>> >>>> As long as the rule is "no smoking in the machine room:" >>>> >>> Who says there's no smoking in the machine room? One of the largest >>> computer systems ever built, the AN/FSQ-7, had operator consoles with >>> built-in ashtrays. >>> >> ...and cigarette lighters! >> >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Ashtray.jpg >> > > What was the rotary dial in that pic for? > > Not looking at site... I'm guessing to call late night pizza for the Puter Programers. :) From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jul 28 11:29:11 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker Message-ID: Wow, there's something very creepy pornographic about that commercial. Nice find, Jason! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 11:37:04 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:37:04 -0500 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <488DF5B0.1040804@gmail.com> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > When I did my TD02IMD utility for ImageDisk, I dug into the TeleDisk format > fairly deeply. D'oh - sorry, I'd completely forgotten that you'd done some digging into this :( Those notes are useful - thanks. I like the way the case of the signature in the header dictates the data compression type! Silly question time, but has anyone actually tried poking NTI to see if they'll release an 'official' spec? (I'd assume that they have, but you never know :-) > My notes on the format are available on my web page, go to the > Disks/Software images section linked near the end of the main page Hmm, is it an idea to put the software/images and simulators/emulators links at the top of your site's main page rather than the bottom? My logic was that a lot of people probably visit your site for those rather than machine-specific images, and it's a big page to scroll through (which'll only get bigger as more stuff's added) cheers! J. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 28 12:33:58 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:33:58 -0400 Subject: vintage IBM board? Message-ID: <9CA790C6-BE50-4AD8-8F06-B3C49CFC6216@neurotica.com> I just spotted this on eBay. Isn't this a very early (pre-S/360) IBM board? eBay item #230231322529 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 12:46:07 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:46:07 -0400 Subject: vintage IBM board? In-Reply-To: <9CA790C6-BE50-4AD8-8F06-B3C49CFC6216@neurotica.com> References: <9CA790C6-BE50-4AD8-8F06-B3C49CFC6216@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I just spotted this on eBay. Isn't this a very early (pre-S/360) IBM > board? > > eBay item #230231322529 While it is weird to have SLT on an SMS board, it is well within reason. SMS (the form factor for the board at auction) was used for 25 some years. The part number (397563) puts in pretty much in the S/360 era. -- Will From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 28 13:07:24 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:07:24 -0400 Subject: vintage IBM board? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200807281807.m6SI7R7m051819@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:46:07 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> I just spotted this on eBay. Isn't this a very early (pre-S/360) IBM >> board? >> >> eBay item #230231322529 >While it is weird to have SLT on an SMS board, it is well within >reason. SMS (the form factor for the board at auction) was used for 25 >some years. >The part number (397563) puts in pretty much in the S/360 era. >-- >Will A lot of 360 I/O lived on in the 370 family. The 370/135 had an Intergreate Printer Adapter (IPA) feature that would drive a 1403N1 and an (ICA) Intergrated Communications Adaptor, It looks like a line driver for/from some kind of I/O to me. Bob From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 13:22:04 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:22:04 -0500 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com> References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com> <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730807281122jca15829s79760a8db8066ed7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Who says there's no smoking in the machine room? One of the largest > computer systems ever built, the AN/FSQ-7, had operator consoles with > built-in ashtrays. OK - how about no smoking in the machine room that has open-reel tape drives in it? From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jul 28 13:28:49 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:28:49 +0100 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <457BE71C1DF3463386F34EADD762AE44@FLEXPC> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Jason T wrote: >>> As long as the rule is "no smoking in the machine room:" >> >> Who says there's no smoking in the machine room? One of the largest >> computer systems ever built, the AN/FSQ-7, had operator consoles >> with built-in ashtrays. > > ...and cigarette lighters! > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Ashtray.jpg My only on-site call-out to France was a customer (just outside of Paris) who had also obviously never heard of the "no smoking" rule. This was the late 1990s though, so no real excuse! Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 28 14:33:19 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:33:19 -0700 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488DF5B0.1040804@gmail.com> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488DF5B0.1040804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488DBC8F.18252.103D139F@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2008 at 11:37, Jules Richardson wrote: > Those notes are useful - thanks. I like the way the case of the > signature in the header dictates the data compression type! Thank you. > Silly question time, but has anyone actually tried poking NTI to see > if they'll release an 'official' spec? (I'd assume that they have, but > you never know :-) I actually don't know the state of NTI, having been out of the picture for 8 years now. Armor was acquired by BAE last year. A bunch of NTI's business (but I don't know if that includes software) was sold to Breakwater Technologies in Seattle a few years ago. They may be the ones to contact--they might not even know they own it. So one might ask them--assuming that they haven't been gobbled up by someone else. Cheers, Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Jul 28 15:17:18 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:17:18 +0200 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488DDC4F.6010801@gmail.com> References: <488DDC4F.6010801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080728221718.8ada08c0.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hi all, > > What's the current status as to the copyright and reverse-engineering of > Teledisk's archive format? I have a feeling that someone was working on > documenting the file format, but that the copyright is still owned by some > company or other (not Sydex any more)? Do you know libdsk? This can read Teledisk (and CopyQM - this is what I use) and dump it into the raw format http://www.seasip.info/Unix/LibDsk/ Example for CopyQM (works with teledisk as well) olivleh1 at kartoffel olivleh1> file w11bas.cqm w11bas.cqm: data olivleh1 at kartoffel olivleh1> dsktrans -otype raw w11bas.cqm w11bas.dmp Input driver: CopyQM file driver Output driver:Raw file driver olivleh1 at kartoffel olivleh1> file w11bas.dmp w11bas.dmp: tar archive olivleh1 at kartoffel olivleh1> tar -tf w11bas.dmp README INSTALL install ... -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 28 16:12:06 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floating-point numbers (on the Amiga) In-Reply-To: <1217220049.30368.9.camel@entasis> References: <000701c8f028$fc54c0b0$bcfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <1217220049.30368.9.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <20080728140651.M41015@shell.lmi.net> > I am trying (and failing) to learn how AMOS Basic (and Amiga's) store > floating point numbers. Whilst it is clear that it uses Motorola Fast > Floating Point (MFPP) I have been unable to get it to work based on an > equation found online (the Amiga RKRM's all say to use the FPP > functions in the maths libraries, and also confirm the layout - 24 bit > mantissa, 1bit sign, 7bit exponent). Am I doing something wrong with > my maths?? IF it is the same as IEEE single precision, there is a sign bit, and 23 bits to store a 24 bit mantissa, (normalization always forces the highest bit on, so there is no need to store it), and an 8 bit exponent (with 128 offset) Zero, therefore, has to be stored as a special case. From g-wright at att.net Mon Jul 28 16:54:33 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:54:33 +0000 Subject: wang network cabling and junction boxes Free >. + shipping Message-ID: <072820082154.6843.488E40190006313E00001ABB22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> This is a repost from a week or so Ago.... did not see it go through I have a box of cable and some junction boxes for a Wang system. Free + shipping. located in the Kent, Wa. area Have not seen any CCtalk traffic in my IN box in a week. hope this is working - Jerry g-wright at att.net From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 28 15:50:54 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:50:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floating-point numbers (on the Amiga) In-Reply-To: <1217220049.30368.9.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <722433.64950.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks to Lawrence and Lee, I solved the problem. I was getting the mantissa value by reading the longword with an offset of -1. However the byte before the mantissa had a value of 1, thus adding 16777216 to the value when read in with the mantissa! Oops. I shall check my code more carefully next time :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jul 28 17:56:25 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:56:25 -0700 Subject: Floating-point numbers (on the Amiga) In-Reply-To: <20080728140651.M41015@shell.lmi.net> References: <000701c8f028$fc54c0b0$bcfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <1217220049.30368.9.camel@entasis> <20080728140651.M41015@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <488E4E99.9060804@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > IF it is the same as IEEE single precision, > there is a sign bit, I don't know much about the Amiga, but I think he said it was using Motorola's Fast Floating Point library (MC68343). That doesn't use IEEE format natively, though it includes functions to convert to and from IEEE format. The FFP was not IEEE because by using a nonstandard encoding they were able to get higher performance. Eric From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 20:25:26 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:25:26 -0400 Subject: AOS "manual" Message-ID: <7d3530220807281825r192f0264v79009e2a89129dec@mail.gmail.com> Hi all Just got my hands on the local library's copy of The New Hacker's Dictionary, 2nd ed (couldn't pass it up even though I've read it online), and I noticed that the entry for AOS mentions a joke manual called "How to Goad and Levitate your CHAOS System". Does anybody have a copy of this? Bitsavers? John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 21:08:13 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:08:13 -0500 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730807281908m6d8d9645xcdfd0e98810d50cd@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Wow, there's something very creepy pornographic about that commercial. > Nice find, Jason! Always happy to skate the edges of on-topicness for the benefit of the group. -j From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 28 21:16:57 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:16:57 -0700 Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: <51ea77730807281122jca15829s79760a8db8066ed7@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com>, <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com>, <51ea77730807281122jca15829s79760a8db8066ed7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <488E1B29.1042.11AE9999@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jul 2008 at 13:22, Jason T wrote: > OK - how about no smoking in the machine room that has open-reel tape > drives in it? ISTR a few folks smoking in the machine rooms at CDC; what was verboten was soft drinks and coffee on the console. Go ahead, eat a sandwich or a candy bar, but no drinks. Apparently a lot of hassle cleaning out Coke spilled into the keyboards. But smoking? Okay as long as you brought an ashtray. Ah, the bad old days. The guys who shared the cube across the aisle from mine smoked a pipe and cigars (rum-soaked Crooks). I minded the pipe more than the cigars--the guy smoked all of these really sick flavored tobaccos. Periodically when the air got too blue, I'd pull out one the really cheap 25 cent stogies I kept in my desk drawer, light up, and saunter over for a conversation. I'dve stuffed one with rubber bands if that wouldn've worked better. The guy in the cube next to mine was a chain smoker. (Unfiltered Camels) I suspect he's probably dead by now. But no one yelled too much if you smoked in the machine room (I think "officially" you weren't supposed to). Maybe with all that HVAC, it didn't matter all that much. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 28 21:31:14 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: <488E1B29.1042.11AE9999@cclist.sydex.com> References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com>, <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com>, <51ea77730807281122jca15829s79760a8db8066ed7@mail.gmail.com> <488E1B29.1042.11AE9999@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080728192321.F58262@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ISTR a few folks smoking in the machine rooms at CDC; what was > verboten was soft drinks and coffee on the console. Go ahead, eat a > sandwich or a candy bar, but no drinks. Apparently a lot of hassle > cleaning out Coke spilled into the keyboards. For some unknown reason, Pepsi was the more notorious. After Three Mile Island, Saturday Night Live postulated that it was caused by "The Pepsi Syndrome", the result of spilling a Pepsi into a computer keyboard. Shortly after that, the U.S.A. and USSR (CCCP) normalized diplomatic relations enough to import vodka and export Pepsi to Russia. That was followed almost immediately by Chernobyl. Surely that could not be coincidence! What did "Pepsi" Sculley do to Apple? From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Jul 28 21:34:45 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:34:45 -0700 Subject: AOS "manual" In-Reply-To: <7d3530220807281825r192f0264v79009e2a89129dec@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220807281825r192f0264v79009e2a89129dec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <488E81C5.5030507@mainecoon.com> John Floren wrote: > Just got my hands on the local library's copy of The New Hacker's > Dictionary, 2nd ed (couldn't pass it up even though I've read it > online), and I noticed that the entry for AOS mentions a joke manual > called "How to Goad and Levitate your CHAOS System". Does anybody have > a copy of this? Bitsavers? You might try tracking down Terry Dowling, last at Adobe, and see if you can get a pointer to a copy. What would really be nice are the spoof advertisements that they did, including the Infos ad (a spoof on the "Rinso" ads, with an arm holding a box labeled "Infos" coming out of a Zebra SMD drive) and the "Look for the DG label" parody (sung to the tune of "Look for the union label"). -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Mon Jul 28 22:03:52 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:03:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Capri: The Rule Breaker In-Reply-To: <488E1B29.1042.11AE9999@cclist.sydex.com> References: <51ea77730807272243n61dae671mee2b33b23b3a870e@mail.gmail.com>, <488D600C.80401@brouhaha.com>, <51ea77730807281122jca15829s79760a8db8066ed7@mail.gmail.com> <488E1B29.1042.11AE9999@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Jul 2008 at 13:22, Jason T wrote: > > > OK - how about no smoking in the machine room that has open-reel tape > > drives in it? > > ISTR a few folks smoking in the machine rooms at CDC; what was > verboten was soft drinks and coffee on the console. Go ahead, eat a > sandwich or a candy bar, but no drinks. Apparently a lot of hassle > cleaning out Coke spilled into the keyboards. > > But smoking? Okay as long as you brought an ashtray. > > Ah, the bad old days. The guys who shared the cube across the aisle > from mine smoked a pipe and cigars (rum-soaked Crooks). I minded the > pipe more than the cigars--the guy smoked all of these really sick > flavored tobaccos. Periodically when the air got too blue, I'd pull > out one the really cheap 25 cent stogies I kept in my desk drawer, > light up, and saunter over for a conversation. I'dve stuffed one > with rubber bands if that wouldn've worked better. > > The guy in the cube next to mine was a chain smoker. (Unfiltered > Camels) I suspect he's probably dead by now. > > But no one yelled too much if you smoked in the machine room (I think > "officially" you weren't supposed to). Maybe with all that HVAC, it > didn't matter all that much. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > One of the problems that turned Three Mile Island from a place to an event was spilled coke on the control panel. Apparently enough switches did not go better with coke that false indications caused the operators to do the wrong things. Airborne particles such as smoke were probably figured to be caught by the HVAC filters. I remember how leaving NAVALEX every day my body had to rapidly adjust from sixty to the typically ninety degree Norfolk heat. I got home, opened a beer, and was quickly sound asleep. bs From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 23:31:42 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Osborne Vixen prototype? Message-ID: <325961.98611.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have this system, but is it an Osborne Vixen prototype or early release? 1. It's all black, instead of white 2. horizontal drives, instead of vertical 3. smaller screen than 'later model' 4. screen says "OCC4 1.01 BIOS - 1984" pictures here: http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/vixen.html Let me know what you think, know, or think you know. From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Jul 28 14:47:28 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:47:28 +0100 Subject: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! In-Reply-To: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> Message-ID: <488E2250.30201@axeside.co.uk> > The IBM System/36 was a minicomputer series marketed by IBM from 1983 to > 2000, see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System/36 That takes me back. In my first job, at IBM, I managed a database running on a System/34 - the S/36's older sister, if you like. My favourite bit was the diskette drive. You loaded eight-inch floppies into boxes of ten, and stuck up to two boxes (and three loose floppies) in the drive. The whole lot moved along until the floppy it wanted was in front of the slot; it then sucked the floppy in and read or wrote it at great speed. When our S/34 had a fault on one hard drive I had to back up the remaining drives onto floppies. I discovered about half way through this process that the help line I'd been phoning was support for the database software, not for the machine. I wish they'd told me sooner! The S/34, the big S/36 (5360) and a word processing system of which I can't remember the number all had this drive, but I never saw it anywhere else. When I was at IBM (1985-6) the 5362 compact S/36 (the size of a desk pedestal) and the 5364 desktop S/36 (same box as the PC/AT) had just been released. The 5362 took 8" floppies one at a time, and the 5364 took 5.25" floppies one at a time. How a developer with a 5364 distributed programs to users with the large machines I never discovered... Because I was familiar with the S/34, and was a student on low wages, I got the job of writing some DOS batch files to get a PC to talk to the S/36 at a customer site. The customer was Imperial Tobacco - an office where you couldn't see across the room for smoke - and I was offered more cigarettes on the day I installed the program than in my entire previous life. (I didn't accept, and even so I was barely breathing when I escaped :-) ) > A local businessman contacted me about getting rid of his installation. > I live just south of Jacksonville, FL, the machine is in Switzerland, FL I'd love a System/36, even though I've nowhere to put it. But Switzerland, FL is much too far away, so there's no hope... (Sobering thought. At IBM I worked in the large accounts side of marketing - customers who'd pay many millions for a 3084 or 3090 less powerful than a modern PC) Philip. From josecvalle at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 17:43:11 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:43:11 -0300 Subject: vintage IBM board? In-Reply-To: <9CA790C6-BE50-4AD8-8F06-B3C49CFC6216@neurotica.com> References: <9CA790C6-BE50-4AD8-8F06-B3C49CFC6216@neurotica.com> Message-ID: OH my God, I have a lot of that boards in my Museum.. By the way I have two hard disk of B500 Burroughs, from decade 60?s with 100 kb each one. I saw at Southebys in London for 150,000..00 I do not know how much is today.. Jose Carlos Valle curator , of Computer museum Brazil PS: By the way anything I wrote, nobody care about. 2008/7/28 Dave McGuire > > I just spotted this on eBay. Isn't this a very early (pre-S/360) IBM > board? > > eBay item #230231322529 > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > -- Jos? Carlos Valle ? Presidente curador www.museudocomputador.com.br Blog do curador:--HTTP://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com Tel office: 011 4666-7545 - celular prov: 8794-6730 Tel skype 3013-3946 - "Tudo posso naquele que fortalece, Felipenses 4:13" From summersigh6teen at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 00:45:36 2008 From: summersigh6teen at comcast.net (carl margolis) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:45:36 -0700 Subject: DMS 3F Fox portable computer available for sale/adoption... Message-ID: <99880084-40B1-4125-82BE-E55D7E648914@comcast.net> Hello; I have a DMS 3F with the original nylon carry bag for computer and keyboard. Bag is damaged but computer is in excellent shape. Unfortunately no software comes with it. It has the Hi-Net LAN built in. This was my first work computer in 1984-5. I don't want to just throw it away. Please contact me if you are interested. Thanks... Carl M. summersigh6teen at comcast.net From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 09:42:04 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:42:04 -0400 Subject: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! In-Reply-To: <488E2250.30201@axeside.co.uk> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <488E2250.30201@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <488F2C3C.6070801@gmail.com> Philip Belben wrote: > (Sobering thought. At IBM I worked in the large accounts side of > marketing - customers who'd pay many millions for a 3084 or 3090 less > powerful than a modern PC) Bleh. Comparing a 3090 to a modern PC is meaningless. I have no doubt that there will *eventually* be a PC more powerful (read having more I/O throughput capacity) than today's System z10. But by then mainframes will have moved on. I'll bet a cellphone or pocket scientific calculator would have more horsepower than a first-generation S/360. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 11:33:44 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:33:44 -0500 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488DBC8F.18252.103D139F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488DF5B0.1040804@gmail.com> <488DBC8F.18252.103D139F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <488F4668.3020004@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Jul 2008 at 11:37, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Those notes are useful - thanks. I like the way the case of the >> signature in the header dictates the data compression type! > > Thank you. Heh. Certainly an interesting way of doing it - presumably done to avoid breaking existing tools that might be out there? >> Silly question time, but has anyone actually tried poking NTI to see >> if they'll release an 'official' spec? (I'd assume that they have, but >> you never know :-) > > I actually don't know the state of NTI, having been out of the > picture for 8 years now. Armor was acquired by BAE last year. A > bunch of NTI's business (but I don't know if that includes software) > was sold to Breakwater Technologies in Seattle a few years ago. They seem to be calling themselves "Breakwater Security Associates" now, although their website seems to actually hit a company called "Perimeter eSecurity". Having said that, some articles seem to refer to the acquisition as "NTI Breakwater", and a google on that redirects to forensics-intl.com. Murky waters indeed! I'll try the latter lot first as they seem a little more approachable - the former look like they won't touch anyone who doesn't have a whole pile of money to throw their way... cheers! Jules From devonstopps at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 12:07:36 2008 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:07:36 -0400 Subject: AIX 3.2 Weird Networking Problem Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20080729130550.021c46b8@pop.gmail.com> No one has any ideas about this problem? Devon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 29 12:29:49 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:29:49 -0700 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488F4668.3020004@gmail.com> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488DBC8F.18252.103D139F@cclist.sydex.com>, <488F4668.3020004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488EF11D.2583.14F25E65@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2008 at 11:33, Jules Richardson wrote: > Heh. Certainly an interesting way of doing it - presumably done to avoid > breaking existing tools that might be out there? To be honest, I can't tell you why I did it that way. Probably for compatibility's sake, but it's been too many years. I do recall thinking that one could have TD tD Td and td as variations. > I'll try the latter lot first as they seem a little more approachable - the > former look like they won't touch anyone who doesn't have a whole pile of > money to throw their way... If they'll release me from the NDA that they inherited, I'm perfectly content to release the source code to the public of any tools they might have acquired (I've got every iteration since 1987). But I have a very-well justified fear of lawyers, so not before then. Certainly, any interest in floppies has to be marginal by now. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 29 12:52:31 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488EF11D.2583.14F25E65@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488DBC8F.18252.103D139F@cclist.sydex.com>, <488F4668.3020004@gmail.com> <488EF11D.2583.14F25E65@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080729105050.N93272@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To be honest, I can't tell you why I did it that way. Probably for > compatibility's sake, but it's been too many years. I do recall > thinking that one could have TD tD Td and td as variations. and by setting the high bit, you can have 8 variations, . . . > Certainly, any interest in floppies has to be marginal by now. We have been marginalized? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 29 13:56:44 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:56:44 -0700 Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home!) In-Reply-To: <488F2C3C.6070801@gmail.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <488E2250.30201@axeside.co.uk> <488F2C3C.6070801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488F67EC.4050301@brouhaha.com> Sridhar wrote: > I'll bet a cellphone or pocket scientific > calculator would have more horsepower than a first-generation S/360. Your average $10 hang-tag scientific calculator doesn't, but the new $40 hp 20b calculator does. It's sold as a business/financial calculator, but does have scientific functions. It's based on an ARM-7DTMI processor running at 36 MHz with 134KB of memory. People on the MoHPC forums are already discussing repurposing it, and have set up a Wiki for developer information. Eric From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 14:03:41 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:03:41 -0400 Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home!) In-Reply-To: <488F67EC.4050301@brouhaha.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <488E2250.30201@axeside.co.uk> <488F2C3C.6070801@gmail.com> <488F67EC.4050301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <488F698D.8070307@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Sridhar wrote: > > I'll bet a cellphone or pocket scientific >> calculator would have more horsepower than a first-generation S/360. > > Your average $10 hang-tag scientific calculator doesn't, but the new $40 > hp 20b calculator does. It's sold as a business/financial calculator, > but does have scientific functions. It's based on an ARM-7DTMI > processor running at 36 MHz with 134KB of memory. People on the MoHPC > forums are already discussing repurposing it, and have set up a Wiki for > developer information. Actually, the calculators I had in the front of my mind were the HP 49G and the TI 89. Peace... Sridhar From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 29 14:11:10 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:11:10 -0700 Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home!) In-Reply-To: <488F698D.8070307@gmail.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <488E2250.30201@axeside.co.uk> <488F2C3C.6070801@gmail.com> <488F67EC.4050301@brouhaha.com> <488F698D.8070307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488F6B4E.7040806@brouhaha.com> Sridhar wrote: > Actually, the calculators I had in the front of my mind were the HP 49G > and the TI 89. Since you said "pocket scientific calculator", I infer that you have at least one really big pocket! :-) Eric From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 29 14:44:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:44:38 -0700 Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home!) In-Reply-To: <488F67EC.4050301@brouhaha.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com>, <488F2C3C.6070801@gmail.com>, <488F67EC.4050301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <488F10B6.23177.156DCE0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2008 at 11:56, Eric Smith wrote: > Your average $10 hang-tag scientific calculator doesn't, but the new $40 > hp 20b calculator does. It's sold as a business/financial calculator, > but does have scientific functions. It's based on an ARM-7DTMI > processor running at 36 MHz with 134KB of memory. People on the MoHPC > forums are already discussing repurposing it, and have set up a Wiki for > developer information. Has there been any talk of repurposing DTV "set top" converter boxes? I've got one here with an RS-232 connector on it that responded with a BSOD display, complete with register dump and MMU status when we had a power glitch. The video and audio capabilities should be pretty good for the price. Cheers, Chuck From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Jul 29 14:48:08 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:48:08 -0400 Subject: AIX 3.2 Weird Networking Problem In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20080725171224.0214dbb8@pop.gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20080725171224.0214dbb8@pop.gmail.com> Message-ID: <488F73F8.6020206@netscape.net> Devon, Could the router be spoofing a MAC address? Perhaps the mystery pc and the router have the same MAC address. Does traffic from any other machines get out of the building? Jim Devon Stopps wrote: > Definitely the right netmask, and seems to be the right interface (en0) > - although, as a side note, can you explain the difference between this > and the et0 interface? No problems with any other system in the > building. I've set up many a solaris or linux box with no problems. > > arp -a shows nothing interesting, just another system I ftp'd into - > have tried adding a static entry for the gateway, with no luck: > ? (xxx.xx.132.118) at 0:b0:d0:26:7b:5d [ethernet] > > the netstat -rn (x's added, obviously): > > Routing tables > Destination Gateway Flags Refcnt Use Interface > Netmasks: > (root node) > (0)0 ff00 0 > (0)0 ffff ff00 0 > (root node) > > Route Tree for Protocol Family 2: > (root node) > default xxx.xx.132.1 UG 0 472 en0 > 127 127.0.0.1 U 50 340667 lo0 > xxx.xx.132 xxx.xx.132.191 U 11 1773 en0 > (root node) > > Route Tree for Protocol Family 6: > (root node) > (root node) > > T.H.x. > Devon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 29 14:48:07 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:48:07 -0700 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <20080729105050.N93272@shell.lmi.net> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488EF11D.2583.14F25E65@cclist.sydex.com>, <20080729105050.N93272@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <488F1187.16730.1570FE61@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2008 at 10:52, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > To be honest, I can't tell you why I did it that way. Probably for > > compatibility's sake, but it's been too many years. I do recall > > thinking that one could have TD tD Td and td as variations. > > and by setting the high bit, you can have 8 variations, . . . 16 no? TD *TD T*D *T*D td *td t*d *t*d... where the * indicates high bit set. But then, who's counting? Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jul 29 14:48:48 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:48:48 +0100 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488EF11D.2583.14F25E65@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488DBC8F.18252.103D139F@cclist.sydex.com>, <488F4668.3020004@gmail.com> <488EF11D.2583.14F25E65@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <488F7420.6030404@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Certainly, any interest in floppies has to be marginal by now. Well, I wish you'd told me that before I started building the disc analyser :) FWIW, I'm getting perilously close to building a prototype -- the FPGAs are here, and I've got >90% of the other parts, including those for the homebrew Byteblaster II cable (which I put together this morning). I'm short a 50MHz 3.3V CMOS oscillator, but that's an easy problem to solve (relatively speaking). Analyser-wise, I've just got the write controller state machine to pass the testbench in Quartus -- it's spitting out a few dire warnings and the data separator / sync word detector needs a few bugs killing. But of course there's only so much the design software can tell you... I think it's got a good chance of working on its first test run. I'm hoping that PC66 SDRAM timing isn't critical enough that I need to start doing trace-length matching... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jul 29 14:55:04 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:55:04 +0100 Subject: Floppy controller Q - VCO Inhibit / VCO Sync, and IBM format Message-ID: <488F7598.2010800@philpem.me.uk> Hi, I've been playing about with the HDL code for the floppy reader (after a "short break") and started thinking about how the VCO Sync/Inhibit line on the data separator should be driven. At the moment it's driven permanently high; this seems to work OK insofar as the sync detector (which is why the datasep is there -- to extract a clock signal for the MFM data stream) will pick up SYNC-A1 signals and the data seems to be valid. What I don't know is if this is how things are supposed to be done... The uPD765 and 827x datasheets are predictably rather sketchy on this front... All they really say is that the VCO line inhibits the VCO in the PLL, which would have the effect of allowing the PLL's loop filter to discharge, and reset it to a predetermined state. What they don't say is under what conditions the FDC will do that... So I guess the million dollar question is what I should do with said VCO line. Wire it to /INDEX via an inverter to reset the PLL on every rotation? Or just wire it to VCC (VCO enabled) and leave it? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 14:50:27 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:50:27 -0500 Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home!) In-Reply-To: <488F10B6.23177.156DCE0D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com>, <488F2C3C.6070801@gmail.com>, <488F67EC.4050301@brouhaha.com> <488F10B6.23177.156DCE0D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <488F7483.5030507@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Jul 2008 at 11:56, Eric Smith wrote: >> Your average $10 hang-tag scientific calculator doesn't, but the new $40 >> hp 20b calculator does. It's sold as a business/financial calculator, >> but does have scientific functions. It's based on an ARM-7DTMI >> processor running at 36 MHz with 134KB of memory. People on the MoHPC >> forums are already discussing repurposing it, and have set up a Wiki for >> developer information. > > Has there been any talk of repurposing DTV "set top" converter boxes? > I've got one here with an RS-232 connector on it that responded with > a BSOD display, complete with register dump and MMU status when we > had a power glitch. The video and audio capabilities should be > pretty good for the price. It could certainly be done in the old days of set top boxes; I remember booting RISC OS on one of the ARM-based late-80s systems (can't remember if it was a Bush or Pace one now). Hook up a keyboard and they potentially made quite nice low-power, silent terminals for web browsing. Kind of nice in a way; I've always been a fan of hardware X terminals, but the lack of audio capabilities were really annoying. I'm kind of surprised a more modern set top box is running Windows - I thought they'd all be using *BSD / Linux or something totally proprietary. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 29 15:19:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:19:46 -0700 Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home!) In-Reply-To: <488F7483.5030507@gmail.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com>, <488F10B6.23177.156DCE0D@cclist.sydex.com>, <488F7483.5030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488F18F2.29921.158DF6A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2008 at 14:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm kind of surprised a more modern set top box is running Windows - I thought > they'd all be using *BSD / Linux or something totally proprietary. Oh, I don't know if it was Windows--I should have said "bsod" in miniscules. The screen was blue with white characters. What was behind it is anyone's guess. Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 15:17:28 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:17:28 -0500 Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home!) In-Reply-To: <488F18F2.29921.158DF6A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com>, <488F10B6.23177.156DCE0D@cclist.sydex.com>, <488F7483.5030507@gmail.com> <488F18F2.29921.158DF6A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <488F7AD8.9070404@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Oh, I don't know if it was Windows--I should have said "bsod" in > miniscules. The screen was blue with white characters. What was > behind it is anyone's guess. Hmm, maybe it was a blue screen of health, then :-) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 29 16:49:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:49:23 -0700 Subject: Floppy controller Q - VCO Inhibit / VCO Sync, and IBM format In-Reply-To: <488F7598.2010800@philpem.me.uk> References: <488F7598.2010800@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <488F2DF3.9450.15E000C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2008 at 20:55, Philip Pemberton wrote: > At the moment it's driven permanently high; this seems to work OK insofar > as the sync detector (which is why the datasep is there -- to extract a clock > signal for the MFM data stream) will pick up SYNC-A1 signals and the data > seems to be valid. What I don't know is if this is how things are supposed to > be done... ISTR (and it's been a long time since I read the document) that the later versions of the 765 (765A?) imposes something like a 500 usec. VCO inhibit after the leading edge of INDEX/. Earlier versions (765, 8272) imposed something like a 1000 usec. VCO inhibit. This can be a real problem if the original disk was not formatted with an IAM, leading to failure to recognize the IDAM for the first sector on the track. Even so, the 500 usec. "blind spot" exhibited by the 8272A/765A can be a problem for diskettes formatted on other systems where a too- short gap occurs before the first sector header. This leads to all sorts of dodges in reading them on PCs, such as taping over the index hole or tweaking the drive spindle speed down a bit. WD controllers of the 17xx family did not do this; you could start a sector very close to the index pulse and still be fine. My advice would be to fuggedaboudit, particularly if you want to read diskettes produced on other systems than PCs. Cheers, Chuck > > The uPD765 and 827x datasheets are predictably rather sketchy on this > front... All they really say is that the VCO line inhibits the VCO in the PLL, > which would have the effect of allowing the PLL's loop filter to discharge, > and reset it to a predetermined state. What they don't say is under what > conditions the FDC will do that... > > So I guess the million dollar question is what I should do with said VCO line. > Wire it to /INDEX via an inverter to reset the PLL on every rotation? Or just > wire it to VCC (VCO enabled) and leave it? > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jul 29 17:13:03 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:13:03 -0500 Subject: AIX 3.2 Weird Networking Problem In-Reply-To: <4889D87E.60506@gmail.com> References: <200807250434.m6P4XoP2033419@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4889D87E.60506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <488F95EF.3090806@mdrconsult.com> Devon Stopps wrote: > Hi All, > > I've run into a problem with TCP/IP on AIX 3.2, hopefully someone can > shed some light on this weird problem. I've used smit to configure the > network - which works fine within the subnet. The gateway points at the > building router (x.x.132.1), and, a netstat -rn returns this on the > default route as well. > > But, no traffic gets out of the building. A traceroute shows the first > hop is made to x.x.132.63, where it dies - a seemingly random PC, which > is not in any configuration file on the system. Any ideas why this > might happen? I'm coming to this thread way late, but better Nate than lever.... If you've exhausted all the basic prospects, probably the next thing I'd do is an rmtcpip and reboot. That (assuming 3.2 *had* rmtcpip; I don't have a 3.2 box or docs available) unconfigures everything including the interface. AIX pre-v5 is really bad about retaining ghosts of previous network configs if they're not reconfigured in exactly the right procedures. It's possible to track all that down, but just whacking everything and starting clean is much easier. Doc From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 29 17:31:00 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:31:00 -0700 Subject: early desktop TCP/IP implementations (was Re: "first" computer on the internet) In-Reply-To: <13962.1216913263@mini> References: <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org> <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net> <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0807231041y22098a58if962e33d33bd67a4@mail.gmail.com> <20080723204303.GD25182@usap.gov> <13962.1216913263@mini> Message-ID: >>> > Unix and Linux, yes. MacOS didn't have built in TCP/IP until MacOS 8 >>> > in 1997. > > I don't think that is correct. Unless you're claiming that MacTCP was > not "built in", which you could claim, but John Veizades would probably > have something to say about that. He might have something to say about it, but it certainly wasn't built in. It certainly didn't come with System 6 or early System 7. (I stand corrected in my earlier statement, because apparently MacOS 7.5.3 shipped with TCP/IP). I'm sure we can all agree that "built in TCP/IP" means "ships with the operating system" and not "you need to go get this extra software to get 'built in TCP/IP'". If you use that kind of definition every operating system to which TCP/IP could be added had built in TCP/IP. Look, my Commodore 64 has 'built in' TCP/IP. Eric From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jul 29 18:24:11 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:24:11 -0400 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488F7420.6030404@philpem.me.uk> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488DBC8F.18252.103D139F@cclist.sydex.com>, <488F4668.3020004@gmail.com> <488EF11D.2583.14F25E65@cclist.sydex.com> <488F7420.6030404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <488FA69B.1090008@verizon.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Certainly, any interest in floppies has to be marginal by now. > > Well, I wish you'd told me that before I started building the disc > analyser :) And I wish he would have told me before I started my external usb amiga floppy drive controller a couple years ago. :) > FWIW, I'm getting perilously close to building a prototype -- the FPGAs > are here, While I haven't dug into the past posts to see what exactly you are doing, I use a Parallax uC for my solution to create .ADF (amiga emulator files) from amiga formatted disks w/ a standard pc drive. > Analyser-wise, I've just got the write controller state machine to pass > the testbench in Quartus -- it's spitting out a few dire warnings and > the data separator / sync word detector needs a few bugs killing. My blog has considerable detail (although spread out) about how I go about syncing to the data stream -- first at the bit-level(pulses/transitions) and then at the byte level(to the sync word) I'd encourage you to check my blog --- everything is ad-free and open source --- though it needs better organization.......... http://www.techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog high-level overview http://www.techtravels.org/amiga/amiga.html Schematic http://www.techtravels.org/AFPschematic.gif Pictures http://www.techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog/?p=139 Hope this helps Keith From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 29 18:55:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:55:34 -0700 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488FA69B.1090008@verizon.net> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488F7420.6030404@philpem.me.uk>, <488FA69B.1090008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <488F4B86.32491.165385BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jul 2008 at 19:24, Keith wrote: > And I wish he would have told me before I started my external usb amiga > floppy drive controller a couple years ago. :) Understand the context of my statement. Breakwater is a computer secturity/investigative firm. Their interests in obsolescent media have to be very marginal, if for no other reason than the time limit placed by the statute of limitations. I recall that I ran across a laptop PC review a few years ago describing the inclusion of a floppy drive "quaint". The writing was on the wall. For those still using floppies, the need is for something other than a floppy. This is a very problematic issue for those with expensive iron (machine tools, weaving machines, lab equipment). They're not particularly interested in fooling with the little buggers, just finding some way to live with them. For those of you archiving antique floppies, your need is very different--you need to preserve the contents of existing diskettes before they turn to goo or dust--or wear out. But for a security firm, floppies are nice to be able to process, but they're not going to see a lot of them nowadays. I hope this explains my statement better. Cheers, Chuck From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Wed Jul 30 00:27:18 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:27:18 -0700 Subject: HK ET-1000 Trainer References: <51ea77730807220651p12fcb19cobb10142865b1f601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01c8f204$ef723750$0301a8c0@hal9000> Jason, Can't go wrong with Heathkit trainers for learning. There stuff is timeless. If you are looking for just Electronics stuff I would also recommend the ET-3100. If you want to learn more about microprocessors and programming look for an ET-3400 which uses the Motorola 6800 8 bit micro. If you just want an ET-3400 software emulator ( free ) contact me offline. Good luck. Best regards, Steven > Looking for some advice on the ET-1000. I think Heath trainers were > discussed here not too long ago. I have an opportunity to buy one > locally for what I think is a fair price. While it would be nice to > own as a relic, I'd like to actually use it as well (I intend to begin > an electronics curriculum in the Fall.) It seems to have the features > I'd need, and I'm assured it's working properly, but is too vintage to > use regularly? Would I be better off just going with some Rat Shack > kit? > > Thanks to all From philip at axeside.co.uk Tue Jul 29 15:48:42 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:48:42 +0100 Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home!) In-Reply-To: <488F6B4E.7040806@brouhaha.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <488E2250.30201@axeside.co.uk> <488F2C3C.6070801@gmail.com> <488F67EC.4050301@brouhaha.com> <488F698D.8070307@gmail.com> <488F6B4E.7040806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <488F822A.4020806@axeside.co.uk> >> Actually, the calculators I had in the front of my mind were the HP >> 49G and the TI 89. > > Since you said "pocket scientific calculator", I infer that you have at > least one really big pocket! :-) Jacket pockets, trouser pockets, none particularly oversized... it's not a tight squeeze unless I put the HP-49G and my wallet in the same pocket at the same time. Now if I wore jeans it'd be a different matter. Philip. From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Jul 29 17:49:10 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:49:10 -0700 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? Message-ID: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> I picked up an old 9-track drive and thus far I've been unable to identify what, precisely, it is. I have a couple of pictures at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/9-track It has no manufacturer or brand information on it other than an "Interface Data, Inc." label on the front and a label on the back indicating that it is Model No. 9946. I can't find any information at all on the 'net going by this information. I'm guessing that it's a rebranded drive. It is a desktop unit, horizontally mounted and self-threading. As far as I can tell from examining it and fooling around with the front panel buttons it has a SCSI interface and does 1600 and 3200bpi. In the back of the unit are 5 slots, 4 of which are filled with cards. It appears to power up fine, but I can't get it to show up on the SCSI bus when hooked to a PC -- I don't know if the interface is broken or if there's some configuration I need to do. Any ideas? I'd like to find a manual for it so I can figure out what it can do and how to configure it. Thanks as always, Josh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 29 17:52:53 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:52:53 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller Q - VCO Inhibit / VCO Sync, and IBM format Message-ID: <0K4S00IENI7DX1R5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Floppy controller Q - VCO Inhibit / VCO Sync, and IBM format > From: Philip Pemberton > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:55:04 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Hi, > I've been playing about with the HDL code for the floppy reader (after a >"short break") and started thinking about how the VCO Sync/Inhibit line on the >data separator should be driven. > > At the moment it's driven permanently high; this seems to work OK insofar >as the sync detector (which is why the datasep is there -- to extract a clock >signal for the MFM data stream) will pick up SYNC-A1 signals and the data >seems to be valid. What I don't know is if this is how things are supposed to >be done... > > The uPD765 and 827x datasheets are predictably rather sketchy on this >front... All they really say is that the VCO line inhibits the VCO in the PLL, >which would have the effect of allowing the PLL's loop filter to discharge, >and reset it to a predetermined state. What they don't say is under what >conditions the FDC will do that... The VCO is allowed to hold at nominal freq during index gap. It's in the datasheet and a time after index. The VCO filter should not discharge but insead remain at niminal frequency rather than seeking phase lock. This is PLL 101. > >So I guess the million dollar question is what I should do with said VCO line. >Wire it to /INDEX via an inverter to reset the PLL on every rotation? Or just >wire it to VCC (VCO enabled) and leave it? The VCO line is an output from the FDC to the PLL. Some systems do not use it other use it as specified. Allison >Thanks, >-- >Phil. >classiccmp at philpem.me.uk >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Jul 30 01:55:52 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:55:52 +0200 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> Message-ID: <001601c8f211$4ee49c30$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" To: ; "Discussion at mxscan01.zitechnet.dk:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:49 AM Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? > I picked up an old 9-track drive and thus far I've been unable to > identify what, precisely, it is. > > I have a couple of pictures at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/9-track > The innards look very much (identical as far as I can see) like an M4 9914. However, the 9914 accommodates all 4 densities (800 1600 3200 6250 bpi), and has a small display in the bottom right hand corner. Some cards appear to be identical to the ones I have. The one with the yellow sticker and the red dip switch is the SCSI interface. So my best guess is that it could be the older brother of the 9914, maybe the 9906P ? Nico From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jul 30 02:05:53 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:05:53 +0100 Subject: Teledisk archive format In-Reply-To: <488FA69B.1090008@verizon.net> References: <200807281533.m6SFXAfH029929@keith.ezwind.net>, <488DBC8F.18252.103D139F@cclist.sydex.com>, <488F4668.3020004@gmail.com> <488EF11D.2583.14F25E65@cclist.sydex.com> <488F7420.6030404@philpem.me.uk> <488FA69B.1090008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489012D1.4030305@philpem.me.uk> Keith wrote: > While I haven't dug into the past posts to see what exactly you are > doing, I use a Parallax uC for my solution to create .ADF (amiga > emulator files) from amiga formatted disks w/ a standard pc drive. I'm using an Altera Cyclone II FPGA to do the data read/write stuff, a Micron SDRAM for data storage, an Atmel DataFlash chip to store the FPGA microcode and a Microchip PIC18F4550 to handle the USB interface and boot the FPGA (although strictly speaking I could use a smaller PIC and let the FPGA handle the USB interface...) It's been designed from the get-go to do everything required to image and restore soft- and hard-sectored discs. Timing resolution is around the 25ns range (which is an integer multiple of the standard data rates -- 1Mbps, 500kbps, 300kbps, and 250kbps). There's an index-pulse, track-mark and sync-word detector that handles read/write synchronisation. The FPGA contains two distinct modules - a read module and a write module. The read module is basically a chunk of logic that counts the number of clock cycles between pulses on the RD_DATA line and writes the timing values to RAM. The write module is a finite state machine that has a few simple instructions: WRITE_TIMING_R(N) -- wait N cycles and strobe WRITE_DATA SET_WR_GATE(B) -- enable/disable WRITE_GATE WAIT_TMARK -- halt the FSM until a track mark is detected (hard sector discs only) WAIT_INDEX(N) -- halt the FSM until N index pulses have been detected HALT -- stop the FSM and set the DONE flag So for a soft-sector disc you'd use WAIT_INDEX(1) then SET_WR_GATE(1) followed by a bunch of WRITE_TIMING_R() instructions and finished with a SET_WR_GATE(0). For hard-sectored, you'd use WAIT_TMARK, SET_WR_GATE(1), write some data, then SET_WR_GATE(0). That would write to sector 1 -- if you wanted to write to (e.g.) sector 5, add a WAIT_INDEX(4) after WAIT_TMARK. > http://www.techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog I've seen that before, and I'm sure I've commented on it (more than likely as "philpem"). Interesting project, though I wouldn't have used a Parallax SX... It looks like you're just wanting to read and write Amiga discs -- I'm wanting to take this to the point where it's possible to read, analyse and then remaster discs -- especially copy-protected discs. I'm also planning to add some form of auto-analysis to the driver software, which will (hopefully) allow it to use some basic heuristics to figure out the data rate and disc format, spit out a .RDI file (custom open-spec Raw Disc Image -- stores decoded MFM or FM streams or timing values) then decode the data into a .IMA file (PC), .ADF (Amiga / Acorn), .SSD/.DSD (BBC Micro) etc. for use on an emulator. One other thing that might be worth playing with is density analysis -- in theory, no two drives will write at exactly the same speed (motor speeds are rarely perfect). You can - again, theoretically - exploit this to figure out if a disc has been written to after it was mastered (e.g. high score tables, etc. have changed). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From drb at msu.edu Wed Jul 30 08:08:29 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:08:29 -0400 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:49:10 PDT.) <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200807301308.m6UD8TS5028198@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I picked up an old 9-track drive and thus far I've been unable to > identify what, precisely, it is. > I have a couple of pictures at: > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/9-track > It has no manufacturer or brand information on it other than an > "Interface Data, Inc." label on the front and a label on the back > indicating that it is Model No. 9946. Hunting around at interface-data.com, externally it looks somewhat like the rebranded Qualstar 3402/3404 they sell. De From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 08:34:59 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 06:34:59 -0700 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? In-Reply-To: <4890212A.60603@msu.edu> References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> <001601c8f211$4ee49c30$2101a8c0@finans> <4890212A.60603@msu.edu> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90807300634r33c5914bi919e7a3c3601e373@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 1:07 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Ahhh, that does appear to be similar (just perused the 9914 manuals on > bitsavers). If I'm reading it right, I have the 768K differential SCSI > interface, which would explain why my single-ended SCSI controller wouldn't > see it. I think I have an old MCA machine with a differential controller > somewhere, I guess I'll have to dig it out and give it a go... > If it's like the 9914 you should be able to pull the SCSI board from the card cage and there should be Pertec P1 and P2 50-pin card edge connectors behind a cover plate in the back. If you wanted to attach it to a Q-bus it would be easy to do so through the Pertec interface. -Glen From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Jul 30 08:37:56 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:37:56 +0200 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> <200807301308.m6UD8TS5028198@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <000601c8f249$79d0a370$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Boone" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 3:08 PM Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? > > I picked up an old 9-track drive and thus far I've been unable to > > identify what, precisely, it is. > > > I have a couple of pictures at: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/9-track > > > It has no manufacturer or brand information on it other than an > > "Interface Data, Inc." label on the front and a label on the back > > indicating that it is Model No. 9946. > > Hunting around at interface-data.com, externally it looks somewhat like > the rebranded Qualstar 3402/3404 they sell. > Sorry, but I dont agree. The 34xx series do not have a plastic cover between the lid and the drive mechanism. The H and W sizes dont match either, but the correspond to the M4 drive Nico From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 09:20:55 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:20:55 -0500 Subject: HK ET-1000 Trainer In-Reply-To: <001c01c8f204$ef723750$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <51ea77730807220651p12fcb19cobb10142865b1f601@mail.gmail.com> <001c01c8f204$ef723750$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <51ea77730807300720m7b6d3f5eja17775ed3c3175d0@mail.gmail.com> - Original message - > Jason, Can't go wrong with Heathkit trainers for learning. There stuff .. Well I went ahead and got the HT-1000 and it's great. A very solid machine. Those other models look like the next step. Thanks for mentioning the existence of the trainer, I found it myself :) J On 7/30/08, Scanning wrote: > Jason, > > Can't go wrong with Heathkit trainers for learning. There stuff is timeless. > If you are looking for just Electronics stuff I would also recommend the > ET-3100. If you want to learn more about microprocessors and programming > look for an ET-3400 which uses the Motorola 6800 8 bit micro. If you just > want an ET-3400 software emulator ( free ) contact me offline. Good luck. > > Best regards, Steven > > >> Looking for some advice on the ET-1000. I think Heath trainers were >> discussed here not too long ago. I have an opportunity to buy one >> locally for what I think is a fair price. While it would be nice to >> own as a relic, I'd like to actually use it as well (I intend to begin >> an electronics curriculum in the Fall.) It seems to have the features >> I'd need, and I'm assured it's working properly, but is too vintage to >> use regularly? Would I be better off just going with some Rat Shack >> kit? >> >> Thanks to all > > -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 30 09:24:31 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:24:31 +0100 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? In-Reply-To: <000601c8f249$79d0a370$2101a8c0@finans> References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> <200807301308.m6UD8TS5028198@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000601c8f249$79d0a370$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <4890799F.2040501@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/07/2008 14:37, Nico de Jong wrote: > Sorry, but I dont agree. The 34xx series do not have a plastic cover between > the lid and the drive mechanism. The H and W sizes dont match either, but > the correspond to the M4 drive I'm with Nico. It's definitely an M4 Data drive. I have a very similar model (a 9900), and it looks almost exactly like the pictures. Mine does 1600bpi and 3200bpi; 800bpi needs an extra card which I don't have (and the M4 guys told me that not all the head assemblies they used are good for 800bpi/NRZ anyway). Mine has two connectors for a Pertec interface, no SCSI, and connects to a QBus controller on one of my 11/73s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Jul 30 09:34:23 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:34:23 +0200 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> <200807301308.m6UD8TS5028198@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000601c8f249$79d0a370$2101a8c0@finans> <4890799F.2040501@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <001001c8f251$5c3e03e0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: ; "Discussion at mxscan01.zitechnet.dk:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? > On 30/07/2008 14:37, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > Sorry, but I dont agree. The 34xx series do not have a plastic cover between > > the lid and the drive mechanism. The H and W sizes dont match either, but > > the correspond to the M4 drive > > I'm with Nico. It's definitely an M4 Data drive. I have a very similar > model (a 9900), and it looks almost exactly like the pictures. Mine > does 1600bpi and 3200bpi; 800bpi needs an extra card which I don't have > (and the M4 guys told me that not all the head assemblies they used are > good for 800bpi/NRZ anyway). Mine has two connectors for a Pertec > interface, no SCSI, and connects to a QBus controller on one of my 11/73s. > I'd better hang on to my 9914 then ! It's a quad-density model Nico From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jul 30 10:39:40 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and In-Reply-To: <200807240139.49506.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080730153940.56DA14F835@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > > > Subject: [FG] WarGames: A Look Back at the Film That Turned Geeks and Phreaks > Into Stars > Date: Thursday 24 July 2008 00:39 > From: "Steve Gunhouse" > To: "fidoguns at fidoguns.org" > > > > Was it really 25 years ago? > On the 24th WarGames was also being shown at theatres across the country.. It was *awesome* to finally see it on the big screen! :-) Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 29 10:39:04 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:39:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computing, then and now (was Re: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system In-Reply-To: <488F822A.4020806@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Jul 29, 8 09:48:42 pm Message-ID: > > Since you said "pocket scientific calculator", I infer that you have at > > least one really big pocket! :-) > > Jacket pockets, trouser pockets, none particularly oversized... it's not > a tight squeeze unless I put the HP-49G and my wallet in the same pocket > at the same time. I have no problem at all fitting an HP49G in my shirt pocket. I once fitted an HP41 + card reader, digitial cassette drive (82161), thermal printer (82162) and an assortment of modules/cards in my coat pocket. Of course it's a Barbour... -tony From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 30 13:21:04 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG disk drive on Govliquidation In-Reply-To: <200807301308.m6UD8TS5028198@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <948120.53886.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Data General cartridge disk drive, auction ends today. Too far away for me, can anyone closer use it? http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1835336&convertTo=USD Bob From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 30 15:18:44 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:18:44 -0600 Subject: Anyone near Battle Creek, MI? I need some local help. Message-ID: I'm trying to negotiate the sale of some rare E&S graphics gear, but the person is located in Battle Creek, MI and isn't willing to ship the item. Can someone help me out with transporting the item to the Craters & Freighters office in Detroit? I can paypal you money for your gas and time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jul 30 17:10:07 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:10:07 -0400 Subject: Cool IBM System/34 -- was: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! In-Reply-To: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> Message-ID: <4890E6BF.60401@nktelco.net> David Greelish wrote: > He has a unit 5360, with a 5224 line printer, and two 5291 terminals. I have a 5340, 5225, and three 5291 in my garage. It has been a couple of years since I powered it up. I don't know much about it other than reading the technical manuals. Is there any development software available for this machine? All I have seen is accounting applications and report generators. Are there any assemblers or tools for developing system software? The research I did in the past says that there weren't any. Whats the simplest (cheapest) way to get 5250 terminal emulation on a PC? -chuck From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Jul 30 03:07:06 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:07:06 -0700 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? In-Reply-To: <001601c8f211$4ee49c30$2101a8c0@finans> References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> <001601c8f211$4ee49c30$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <4890212A.60603@msu.edu> Nico de Jong wrote: >> I picked up an old 9-track drive and thus far I've been unable to >> identify what, precisely, it is. >> >> I have a couple of pictures at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/9-track >> >> > The innards look very much (identical as far as I can see) like an M4 9914. > However, the 9914 accommodates all 4 densities (800 1600 3200 6250 bpi), and > has a small display in the bottom right hand corner. Some cards appear to be > identical to the ones I have. The one with the yellow sticker and the red > dip switch is the SCSI interface. > > So my best guess is that it could be the older brother of the 9914, maybe > the 9906P ? > > Nico > > > Ahhh, that does appear to be similar (just perused the 9914 manuals on bitsavers). If I'm reading it right, I have the 768K differential SCSI interface, which would explain why my single-ended SCSI controller wouldn't see it. I think I have an old MCA machine with a differential controller somewhere, I guess I'll have to dig it out and give it a go... Thanks! Josh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 30 06:36:47 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:36:47 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller Q - VCO Inhibit / VCO Sync, and IBM format Message-ID: <0K4T00M3DHKGFMCA@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> The 765 does the skip of index gap thing regardless of VCO connection an that is triggeerd off the index pulse. VCO inhibit is there to prevent the PLL from trying to track the the mistiming an index gap can introduce. Not always required and some VCO designs are better behaved. Allison > >Subject: Re: Floppy controller Q - VCO Inhibit / VCO Sync, and IBM format > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:49:23 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 29 Jul 2008 at 20:55, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> At the moment it's driven permanently high; this seems to work OK insofar >> as the sync detector (which is why the datasep is there -- to extract a clock >> signal for the MFM data stream) will pick up SYNC-A1 signals and the data >> seems to be valid. What I don't know is if this is how things are supposed to >> be done... > >ISTR (and it's been a long time since I read the document) that the >later versions of the 765 (765A?) imposes something like a 500 usec. >VCO inhibit after the leading edge of INDEX/. Earlier versions (765, >8272) imposed something like a 1000 usec. VCO inhibit. This can be a >real problem if the original disk was not formatted with an IAM, >leading to failure to recognize the IDAM for the first sector on the >track. > >Even so, the 500 usec. "blind spot" exhibited by the 8272A/765A can >be a problem for diskettes formatted on other systems where a too- >short gap occurs before the first sector header. This leads to all >sorts of dodges in reading them on PCs, such as taping over the index >hole or tweaking the drive spindle speed down a bit. > >WD controllers of the 17xx family did not do this; you could start a >sector very close to the index pulse and still be fine. > >My advice would be to fuggedaboudit, particularly if you want to read >diskettes produced on other systems than PCs. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > >> >> The uPD765 and 827x datasheets are predictably rather sketchy on this >> front... All they really say is that the VCO line inhibits the VCO in the PLL, >> which would have the effect of allowing the PLL's loop filter to discharge, >> and reset it to a predetermined state. What they don't say is under what >> conditions the FDC will do that... >> >> So I guess the million dollar question is what I should do with said VCO line. >> Wire it to /INDEX via an inverter to reset the PLL on every rotation? Or just >> wire it to VCC (VCO enabled) and leave it? >> >> Thanks, >> -- >> Phil. >> classiccmp at philpem.me.uk >> http://www.philpem.me.uk/ >> > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jul 30 12:11:00 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:11:00 -0700 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? In-Reply-To: <001001c8f251$5c3e03e0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> <200807301308.m6UD8TS5028198@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000601c8f249$79d0a370$2101a8c0@finans> <4890799F.2040501@dunnington.plus.com> <001001c8f251$5c3e03e0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <4890A0A4.7020802@jwsss.com> I didn't see anyone mention the "invisible on SCSI" symptom you mentioned. Did you check whether it was HVD vs SE vs LVD scsi? HVD is common in older drives with external connectors due to better external noise immunity. It would not be able to hook the HVD up to an SE, though the LVD and SE can be mixed. when you hook an HVD device to SE there is a pin which shorts out the SE drivers and HVD drivers so that there should be no damage, as long as you do the connecting while the power is off. I look at the driver farm on the controller and the target device for clues as to which I have, also as to whether you have a real SCSI device or just some connector which is the same as SCSI, but isn't scsi. Jim From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Wed Jul 30 17:43:00 2008 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:43:00 -0600 Subject: AOS "manual" References: <7d3530220807281825r192f0264v79009e2a89129dec@mail.gmail.com> <488E81C5.5030507@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <09ba01c8f295$a0be3cd0$6fced146@linksys> "How to Goad and Levitate Your CHAOS System" is a spoof by some renegade Data General employees on the venerable "How to Load and Generate Your AOS System". It was a professionally-done manual with the same look and feel as the original manual, but with substantially different text content. Its contents are irreverant and humorous, and unfortunately only partially in the DG archives. DG's published ads were pretty funny also: "Batch is a Bitch", "It's too Hairy to be a Minicomputer", "The Bastards say 'Welcome'", "Sorry it Took Us So Long", "The Big Mouth Strikes Again" to mention a few. Data General - 40 years old this year. Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kennedy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 08:34 PM Subject: Re: AOS "manual" > John Floren wrote: > >> Just got my hands on the local library's copy of The New Hacker's >> Dictionary, 2nd ed (couldn't pass it up even though I've read it >> online), and I noticed that the entry for AOS mentions a joke manual >> called "How to Goad and Levitate your CHAOS System". Does anybody have >> a copy of this? Bitsavers? > > You might try tracking down Terry Dowling, last at Adobe, and see if you > can get a pointer to a copy. > > What would really be nice are the spoof advertisements that they did, > including the Infos ad (a spoof on the "Rinso" ads, with an arm holding a > box labeled "Infos" coming out of a Zebra SMD drive) and the "Look for the > DG label" parody (sung to the tune of "Look for the union label"). > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." > From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jul 31 09:18:47 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:18:47 -0400 Subject: Free HP 85B and accessories Message-ID: I purchased an HP85B and a few accessories a while back and I've now come to the conclusion that I am not going to have enough time to do anything with it. I've verified that the HP85B itself works except for the tape drive. It has the sticky capstan problem and will need to be repaired. The printer seems to work though. The collection includes the following: HP85B ROM drawer 82936A with the following ROMs: - plotter/printer 00085-15002 - matrix 00085-15004 - advanced programming 00085-15005 I also have the following modules: HP-IB Interface 82937A Opt 001 Serial Interface 82939A 128K Memory Module 82909A Of course, it would be great to trade this equipment for something interesting. At the moment, I'm more interested in music synthesizers than in classic computers. I don't really expect anyone on this list to offer that sort of trade but if you just happen to have some old music stuff laying around that you don't want, I'd love to hear about it. In any case, I don't really want to pack this stuff up. I live in Bedford, NH and would be happy to give this equipment to someone who is willing to come here and pick it up. David From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jul 31 10:26:52 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:26:52 +0200 Subject: Apple GS II power supply References: Message-ID: <000c01c8f321$dbb54720$2101a8c0@finans> Hi all Would anyone be interested in an Apple GS II powersupply? It is made by Astec, odl AA13591, and features +5V at 4.0 Amp, +12V at 2.5 Amp, and 0,25Afor -5 and-12V The unit is for 230V, 50/60 Hz. Shipping weight around 3 pounds Nico From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Thu Jul 31 12:21:53 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:21:53 +0200 Subject: Free HP 85B and accessories Message-ID: <20080731192153.zhl1pa1s3k8sscs4@webmail.izone.at> Hi David, I collect old computers and calculators and I have a hp85b, but no accessoirs. So I am interested, but, yeah, but I am not near, maybe, if nobody will pick it up, you may think about packing the stuf?? With best regards Gerhard From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Thu Jul 31 12:23:27 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:23:27 +0200 Subject: Free HP 85B and accessories Message-ID: <20080731192327.ty91gve7ois40s4g@webmail.izone.at> Hi David, just forgotten, take a look at www.tuko.at[1] --> Computermusuem. With best regards Gerhard Links: ------ [1] http://www.tuko.at From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 13:24:10 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Discovering How Greeks Computed in 100 B.C In-Reply-To: <948120.53886.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58288.93044.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/31/science/31computer.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jul 31 19:08:43 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:08:43 -0400 Subject: Free HP 85B and accessories In-Reply-To: <20080731192153.zhl1pa1s3k8sscs4@webmail.izone.at> References: <20080731192153.zhl1pa1s3k8sscs4@webmail.izone.at> Message-ID: Gerhard, Thanks for your interest but I've already found someone local who is interested. Sorry! David On Jul 31, 2008, at 1:21 PM, DI Gerhard Kreuzer wrote: > > > Hi David, > > I collect old computers and calculators and I have a hp85b, but no > accessoirs. So I am interested, but, yeah, but I am not near, maybe, > if nobody will pick it up, you may think about packing the stuf?? > > With best regards > > Gerhard > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jul 31 02:36:14 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? In-Reply-To: <4890212A.60603@msu.edu> References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> <001601c8f211$4ee49c30$2101a8c0@finans> <4890212A.60603@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200807310737.DAA18412@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If I'm reading it right, I have the 768K differential SCSI interface, > which would explain why my single-ended SCSI controller wouldn't see > it. I think I have an old MCA machine with a differential controller > somewhere, I guess I'll have to dig it out and give it a go... If this is HVD, and you have an SBus-based SPARCstation available to use for the purpose, well, I have far more HVD SBus cards than I'm going to personally have any need for and would be happy to send you a couple of them.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lee_courtney at acm.org Thu Jul 31 17:34:22 2008 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1975 IBM Slide Set In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <920572.83871.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Interesting look back on computing in 1975. http://www.squareamerica.com/ib.htm Enjoy, Lee C. From julian at twinax.org Thu Jul 31 19:04:42 2008 From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:04:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cool IBM System/34 -- was: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! In-Reply-To: <4890E6BF.60401@nktelco.net> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <4890E6BF.60401@nktelco.net> Message-ID: I'd take something like this, if it wasn't so damn heavy and massive. It's the predecessor to the AS/400 if you didn't know that. Expect to find nothing for it other than what's included with the machine. Compilers will be RPG-III, and *maybe* COBOL if you are lucky. It's a cute machine, but IMO not worth the time and aggrivation it entails, especially if you have no idea how to operate it. I think it's also three-phase, if I'm not mistaken. On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Charles H Dickman wrote: > David Greelish wrote: >> He has a unit 5360, with a 5224 line printer, and two 5291 terminals. > I have a 5340, 5225, and three 5291 in my garage. It has been a couple of > years since I powered it up. I don't know much about it other than reading > the technical manuals. > > Is there any development software available for this machine? All I have seen > is accounting applications and report generators. Are there any assemblers or > tools for developing system software? The research I did in the past says > that there weren't any. > > Whats the simplest (cheapest) way to get 5250 terminal emulation on a PC? > > -chuck > > > > > From julian at twinax.org Thu Jul 31 19:04:42 2008 From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:04:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cool IBM System/34 -- was: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! In-Reply-To: <4890E6BF.60401@nktelco.net> References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <4890E6BF.60401@nktelco.net> Message-ID: I'd take something like this, if it wasn't so damn heavy and massive. It's the predecessor to the AS/400 if you didn't know that. Expect to find nothing for it other than what's included with the machine. Compilers will be RPG-III, and *maybe* COBOL if you are lucky. It's a cute machine, but IMO not worth the time and aggrivation it entails, especially if you have no idea how to operate it. I think it's also three-phase, if I'm not mistaken. On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Charles H Dickman wrote: > David Greelish wrote: >> He has a unit 5360, with a 5224 line printer, and two 5291 terminals. > I have a 5340, 5225, and three 5291 in my garage. It has been a couple of > years since I powered it up. I don't know much about it other than reading > the technical manuals. > > Is there any development software available for this machine? All I have seen > is accounting applications and report generators. Are there any assemblers or > tools for developing system software? The research I did in the past says > that there weren't any. > > Whats the simplest (cheapest) way to get 5250 terminal emulation on a PC? > > -chuck > > > > >