From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 1 00:00:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:00:16 -0600 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <200709010352.l813qjVU015380@floodgap.com> References: <200709010352.l813qjVU015380@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46D8F1E0.7040108@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> The colour palette is very nice, however. (121 colours) >> That's an interesting number -- how was that number reached? 11 x 11? > > No, 16 colours x 8 luminances, but one of the colours is black. (The greys > are under the 'white' colour.) > Must be the same designer as in the Hitch-hikers guide the the Galaxy. "You mean the blinking back light on the black background !?"... From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 1 00:11:53 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex Sinclair tape In-Reply-To: <668044.21688.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <668044.21688.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > Would someone here be interested in a Timex Sinclair "Power Pack 1" tape? > What games/programs are on it? TSCALC (calculator with trig functions) TSBAR (bargraphs) TSGRAPH (polynomial graphing) TSBANNER (moving banner "very useful in a store display window or even to leave messages on the TV at home!") -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Sep 1 01:34:46 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:34:46 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <166237.48415.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <166237.48415.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D90806.2000103@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/09/2007 01:22, Chris M wrote: > NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS Made by Research Machines, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 1 02:14:13 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 09:14:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: NCR UNIX puter on eBay In-Reply-To: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12258.88.211.153.27.1188630853.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hmm, seem to remember that it may be a Tower-16 (68000 cpu, 1 or 2M Ram, 200Mb disk). Ed > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=290110351771&Category=1247 > > comments? thoughts? suggestions? Virtually nothing > retrieved by googling, though there is a vendor that > has one presumably. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Need a vacation? Get great deals > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 1 02:16:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 08:16:24 +0100 Subject: NCR UNIX puter on eBay In-Reply-To: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D911C8.9010003@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=290110351771&Category=1247 > > comments? thoughts? suggestions? Virtually nothing > retrieved by googling, though there is a vendor that > has one presumably. Tower model of some sort. Nice system if it's a later one with SCSI, s bit bulky and slow otherwise ('slow' being a relative term on here :-) I'd worry about the utter lack of testing, though. Worry even more about the 'not been inside' aspect; that always reads like a nice get-out clause to me when you find someone's pulled the drives or half the boards out of it... It's still got the PMC board in it (CPU and bus control) at least, as that's what the status LEDs, reset switch etc. are mounted on. If it's all there and working then it could be a nice system to have. If it's not, then you'd be screwed as OS media for these things doesn't seem to exist any more. (See Jerry's recent thread about these machines on here) cheers Jules From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Sep 1 00:15:37 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 06:15:37 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Tony Well I got a good response to my musings re British Computers. I'm busy cutting and pasting all of the data to give me a list of who said what and who has what. A passing thought.. should there be a British Section at Bletchley? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 31 August 2007 23:35 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: British Computers. > Wasn't the Dragons (Dragon 32 & Dragon 64) made by a Welsh company? > (Still British, but I don't know anything about the computers other > than their name) Yes. The Dragon 32 was based on the same Motorola Application Note (for the 6883) as the Tandy Color Computer, anf is a very similar machine. Although for some inexplicable reason, the BASIC tokens are differnntly ordered, so a binary BASIC program from a Dragon won;t load on a CoCo and vice versa... The main differece between the hardware of the Dragon and the CoCo is the printer port. There were 3 PIA lines left over once the necessary signal had been taken for the sound, cassette port, keyboard, VDG control, etc. As er all know, the CoCo used them for a bit-banged RS232 port. On the Dragon, they were the Strobe, Busy and ACK lines of a Centronics port. The data for that came from the 8 keyboard scan lines (one port of a PIA), suitably buffered. There was no problem with the dual use of this port, the machine didn't try to read the ekybaord inptus when it was sending a character to the printer, and the printer ignored the keyboard scan 'data' because there was no Strobe signal along with it. The Dragon 64 has (not surpisingly) twice as much RAM, and also a real hardware RS23 port, based IIRC on the 6551. > > Amstrad > > Weren't the Amstrad's called Schneiders in some European country(s)? Yes, I beleive so. -tony From james.rice at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 08:40:08 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 07:40:08 -0600 Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: <46D87F9D.8040300@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200708311648.38949.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46D87F9D.8040300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 8/31/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken offline. Don't know > >> about existing mirrors at this time, but if you want it now's the > >> time to get it (before September 4). > > > > Huh? URL? > > And is someone sorting out a rescue? :-) > > > I'm adding a mirror to ftp.blackcube.org I have been planning a clean up of blackcube's archives as it's pretty disorganized and I also need to add more disk space so I guess this it the time to get started on those projects. At this time, I've archived 14.5gb and have a bit over 12gb to go. James (blackcube) -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 1 09:43:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 09:43:40 -0500 Subject: another test Message-ID: <003401c7eca6$7cef1cc0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I've been working on the mail gateway that sits in front of the classiccmp machine, just a test to make sure things are going the way I expect. No reply needed. Jay From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 10:38:58 2007 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:38:58 +0200 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid Message-ID: http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?itemid=smi26204 Lot n? 2028 Lot of the following: 6-6in Wafer Loader Conversion Kits - Type 3: 3-6in Wafer Loader Conversion Kits - Type 2, 7-Digital - VAX Workstation systems, most with peripherals (visual controllers, monitors, keyboards, printers, cables), 5- 9.1GB SCSI Hard Drives: All items 10 year old condition good working condition when removed from tools 2 years ago. (palletized and ready for loading) (location : Corvallis, OR). -- Stephane Paris, France. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 1 12:16:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:16:15 -0700 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D93BEF.311.57D0200@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2007 at 17:38, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?itemid=smi26204 What do you think? Either surplus OSU equipment or possibly from the HP Corvallis facility? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 1 12:25:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:25:01 -0700 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid In-Reply-To: <46D93BEF.311.57D0200@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46D93BEF.311.57D0200@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46D93DFD.30048.5850AA1@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2007 at 10:16, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What do you think? Either surplus OSU equipment or possibly from the > HP Corvallis facility? Never mind--it's the HP stuff as described by the listing. I needed another cup of coffee... Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 1 14:45:22 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 15:45:22 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes and racks Message-ID: <200709012023.l81KNC2j021807@billy.ezwind.net> We have a bunch, as in too many to count at this point in time, of 9 track tapes and the free standing tape racks they are hanging on, to dispose of over the next few weeks. I will putting a few on ebay along with other stuff as it gets sorted out what has and has not been spoken for. Mucho thanks to those to all of you who bid in the ebay selloff. All involved conceder it has been a success, and IBMcollectables now has a TrueBlue xSeries quad Xeon with twin RAIDS, it is not NEW but it is a whole lot more computer then the 1850R-400 it is currently crawling along on. I hope to get Gallery 2.x loaded and SQL loaded so I can get the site updated and moved over soon. Oh ya....I digress ... as for the 9 tracks and racks Question One: anyone interested in picking things up here in Columbus, contact me offlist. Question Two: anyone know of any use for 9 track tapes ? Question Three: what is the "Green" thing to do with them, or do we let the local recycler take them all ? PS: we have 4 3350's spares and two 3420 Tape Units (spare / parts - mostly complete but not working), and , some card cabnets currently not spoken for. Please contact me off list. Have a happy weekend everyone, OSU WON ! and that school up north just LOST ! Bob at GoBucks.com Bob at IBMcollectables.com From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 1 15:32:25 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 16:32:25 -0400 Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200709011632.25286.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 29 August 2007 03:44, der Mouse wrote: > > as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) have extra rom > > sockets. If you want to obtain a dump of an eprom, could you simply > > plug them into these spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to > > capture an image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured it > > wouldn't hurt to ask... > > Perhaps - if you have such a machine. (I don't.) > > I cobbled together a breadboard of TTL (mostly latches/counters and > muxes) which, with suitable software support on the host, lets me read > ROMs via a parallel port. It's not especially fast, but it's a good > deal faster than a serial line....I really need to transfer it from a > breadboard to something a bit more permanent. If there's interest I > can draw up a schematic and parts list.... That would be of interest to me. Also of interest would be something similar that would allow writing to a RAM chip that would appear as read-only to an 8-bit target system. I have *lots* of TTL on hand here... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 15:45:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D90806.2000103@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <703909.65755.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> of this I was aware --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 01/09/2007 01:22, Chris M wrote: > > NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS > > Made by Research Machines, though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 1 15:59:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 16:59:47 -0400 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <46D6D681.4843.1473875@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070830080852.C74015@shell.lmi.net> <46D6D681.4843.1473875@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709011659.48158.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 30 August 2007 17:38, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Aug 2007 at 16:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I can imagine someone cutting a Centronics printer cable in half, and > > asking how to connect it to the severed end of an HPIB cable... > > Not out of the question in my book. A PC parallel port can drive a > single HPIB device just fine--all it takes is software... :) And while they're not "PC"s, Osborne computers typically had a "Printer/IEEE" port... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 1 16:01:33 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:01:33 -0400 Subject: semi-modern HP mini available In-Reply-To: <003501c7eb53$53bdf780$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <103029.80004.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <003501c7eb53$53bdf780$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200709011701.33870.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 30 August 2007 18:15, Jay West wrote: > Ian wrote.... > > > Gah. If only it were closer... > > And here I was hoping to trade them for some Pr1me Gear ;) > > > Hopefully someone rescues this. These are really neat boxen. > > Yes, but especially the Autoraid units. Those are really nice arrays. If I had the resources, I'd come and get 'em. Unfortunately my truck is still a work in progress, and other consideratoins (like getting laid off again) are also putting a damper on the idea... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 16:09:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 14:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... Message-ID: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I turn to y'all. Please help. Please... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 1 16:12:46 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:12:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <43751.74295.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Rod Smallwood wrote:> Hi Tony > Well I got a good response to my musings re > British Computers. > I'm busy cutting and pasting all of the data to > give me a list of who > said what and who has what. A passing > thought.. should there be a > British Section at Bletchley? > > Rod Yup, definately. Would make it an even better experience when going there. I mean there are loads of computers with have all heard about, but very few we have actually seen (or have the priviledge to use). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 16:48:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:48:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP integral , 82297a In-Reply-To: <46D87BFB.2050608@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Aug 31, 7 10:37:15 pm Message-ID: > > I seem to rember that people on this list ( Tony ?) have extended a > 512K memory expansion for the HP integral. Alas not me. I've upgraded an HP9816 mainboard from 256K to 1M (and for that matter an HP42S from 8K ro 32K), but that's all. However, my Integral came with a 1M memory board which claims to be an HP82916 (PCB 82916-60001). > < from "Chris M" at Aug 31, 7 05:22:32 pm Message-ID: > > NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS Which is a Research Machines (RML) machine (all 3 times!) -tony From james at machineroom.info Sat Sep 1 04:33:27 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:33:27 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D8AB89.603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <46D8AB89.603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46D931E7.7050506@machineroom.info> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 31/08/2007 23:18, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Whitechaple Computer Works (MG1 32016-based workstation, Hitec >> MIPS-based workstations) > > Ah, that's the one I was trying to remember. I know someone who has > one, or perhaps two. > And: (from Jim Austins collection) : Elliot & Ferranti Psion (organiser etc.) Whitecross (WX9xxx & later). Massively parallel transputer (and later x86) SQL machines. Doesn't do much without a Sun frontend but the machine itself was designed & manufactured in the UK. Sadly, the transputers it uses are ST rather than Inmos. I have one as a pet :-) Flite (68K training systems). Still going too! Does British Olivetti count? I once had a BCS2??? machine. Strangely, I don't recall anything from Ireland. With a lot of IT compnies now having a large presence there it strikes me as strange. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 1 18:49:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:49:40 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46D9FA94.5020202@yahoo.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > A passing thought.. should there be a British Section at Bletchley? Don't worry, there will be :-) Plus there'll be various other British machines littering other sections (Inmos, ICL, Elliott, Marconi, BCL, Digico, Diamond etc.) which naturally fit better with some of the other 'themes'. I'm not quite sure when the room with the focus on British machines will come on-line; notionally we're starting at the top end of the building (Colossus, Tunny et al, workshop, really big iron, analogue machines) and working our way down the corridor room-by-room. The 'British Room' is about halfway down - hopefully get to that one in around 6 months or so. It's slow going as every room ends up having to be gutted, cleaned and repainted... I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there first; did Ireland ever make any micros? We spent today doing some final assessment work on the ICL 2966 mainframe prior to its move to final destination (as well as the 40 or so cabinets there seems to be a metric buttload of spares). Wall-painting's now finished in the room that it'll be going in to, and a couple of different firms are coming in on Monday to see the beast and give us a quote for moving it. If all goes well hopefully it'll get shifted in the next couple of weeks... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 1 19:36:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:36:09 -0600 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D9FA94.5020202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D9FA94.5020202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46DA0579.90508@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there > first; did Ireland ever make any micros? I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in Ireland. I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland. > cheers > Jules > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 20:09:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO Message-ID: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/8-Free-Vintage-Computers-IBM-Sun-NEC-in-St-Louis_W0QQitemZ200148007909QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem too bad the NEC 9801 is missing the k/b :( ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From grant at stockly.com Sat Sep 1 20:29:49 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:29:49 -0800 Subject: Best way to toast TTL Message-ID: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Before I write to the group, Kurt Klemm, if you read this please try sending me a message on my web forum at http://www.stockly.com I am getting your e-mails but based on them it sounds like you are not getting mine! : ( --- Now to the rest: I'm wishing I've kept all the broken TTL chips over the years... I am evaluating a TOP2004 programmer for testing TTL chips. I bought it off of ebay from http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp I bought it on ebay because the price was cheaper. They are located in Canada and it took 5 days to get shipped to Alaska. Very well packed. The other TOP programmers ship from china/japan. I want to be able to recommend a TTL tester to my customers of the Kenbak kit. With 132 74xx TTL chips it would really come in handy! So far I think it does a good job. If I lift a signal leg on a 74LS04 it both can't auto detect anything and will report a 7404 as bad. I only have one known bad part, a 74LS376. It DID report it as bad and undetectable. What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a TTL device or simulate static failure. I'd like to try to test how thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for knowing the chip works (mostly) On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak 500%. Its running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot hotter! I need heat sinks... --I suppose giving one 12v to simulate hooking up a power supply wrong? --Hooking 12v to a device normally powered at 5v? --Shorting out a buffer output? (I think some buffers are designed to be shorted out though) --Vehicle ignition coil to an input? : D Grant From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Sep 1 20:42:45 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:42:45 -0400 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> Awhile back, perhaps early '80s, there was a paper or monograph from Tektronix which discussed affects of ESD on TTL. Many people believe(d) that ESD can damage or destroy MOS parts, but that there is no effect on TTL parts. The above publication claimed differently. Stated that although ESD does not destroy TTL function, immunty to noise and (IIRC) switching speeds are impacted because of damage to gate structures. Steve Grant Stockly wrote: > Before I write to the group, Kurt Klemm, if you read this please try > sending me a message on my web forum at http://www.stockly.com I am > getting your e-mails but based on them it sounds like you are not > getting mine! : ( > > --- Now to the rest: > > I'm wishing I've kept all the broken TTL chips over the years... > > I am evaluating a TOP2004 programmer for testing TTL chips. I bought > it off of ebay from > http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp I > bought it on ebay because the price was cheaper. They are located in > Canada and it took 5 days to get shipped to Alaska. Very well > packed. The other TOP programmers ship from china/japan. > > I want to be able to recommend a TTL tester to my customers of the > Kenbak kit. With 132 74xx TTL chips it would really come in handy! > > So far I think it does a good job. If I lift a signal leg on a 74LS04 > it both can't auto detect anything and will report a 7404 as bad. I > only have one known bad part, a 74LS376. It DID report it as bad and > undetectable. > > What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a TTL > device or simulate static failure. I'd like to try to test how > thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the > difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for > knowing the chip works (mostly) > > On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak 500%. > Its running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot hotter! I > need heat sinks... > > --I suppose giving one 12v to simulate hooking up a power supply wrong? > --Hooking 12v to a device normally powered at 5v? > --Shorting out a buffer output? (I think some buffers are designed to > be shorted out though) > --Vehicle ignition coil to an input? : D > > Grant > From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Sep 1 20:46:27 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:46:27 -0400 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <46DA15F3.7010103@radiorobots.com> Should have been "effects of ESD on TTL"; prdn. Steve Stutman wrote: > Awhile back, perhaps early '80s, there was a paper or monograph from > Tektronix which discussed affects of ESD on TTL. Many people > believe(d) that ESD can damage or destroy MOS parts, but that there is > no effect on TTL parts. > > The above publication claimed differently. Stated that although ESD > does not destroy TTL function, immunty to noise and (IIRC) switching > speeds are impacted because of damage to gate structures. > > Steve > > > > > > > Grant Stockly wrote: > >> Before I write to the group, Kurt Klemm, if you read this please try >> sending me a message on my web forum at http://www.stockly.com I am >> getting your e-mails but based on them it sounds like you are not >> getting mine! : ( >> >> --- Now to the rest: >> >> I'm wishing I've kept all the broken TTL chips over the years... >> >> I am evaluating a TOP2004 programmer for testing TTL chips. I bought >> it off of ebay from >> http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp I >> bought it on ebay because the price was cheaper. They are located in >> Canada and it took 5 days to get shipped to Alaska. Very well >> packed. The other TOP programmers ship from china/japan. >> >> I want to be able to recommend a TTL tester to my customers of the >> Kenbak kit. With 132 74xx TTL chips it would really come in handy! >> >> So far I think it does a good job. If I lift a signal leg on a >> 74LS04 it both can't auto detect anything and will report a 7404 as >> bad. I only have one known bad part, a 74LS376. It DID report it as >> bad and undetectable. >> >> What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a >> TTL device or simulate static failure. I'd like to try to test how >> thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the >> difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for >> knowing the chip works (mostly) >> >> On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak 500%. >> Its running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot hotter! I >> need heat sinks... >> >> --I suppose giving one 12v to simulate hooking up a power supply wrong? >> --Hooking 12v to a device normally powered at 5v? >> --Shorting out a buffer output? (I think some buffers are designed >> to be shorted out though) >> --Vehicle ignition coil to an input? : D >> >> Grant >> > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 1 20:59:09 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 21:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007, Paxton Hoag wrote: > On an old Spenser Tracy, Kate Hepburn movie called "Desk Set" playing > on the Family Movie Channel. 1957 > > Looked like an IBM 700 series computer. Unfortunitely it was only > shown during the opening credits. If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen captures from "Desk Set": http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 1 21:00:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:00:54 -0600 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <46DA1956.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a TTL > device or simulate static failure. Well Just look for the MAGIC SMOKE floating around the room, ITS DEAD JIM :) I'd like to try to test how > thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the difference > between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for knowing the > chip works (mostly) From what I remember reading about bad chips is that they did not meet AC measurements not DC ones. The flip/flop works great a 1 MHz but not 20Mhz like the spec sheet states. > On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak 500%. Its > running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot hotter! I need > heat sinks... God what next ... 12 bits? Ben alias woodelf From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Sep 1 21:06:28 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <28447.92289.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Grant Stockly wrote: > I'd like to > try to test how > thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't > tell the > difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't > too important for > knowing the chip works (mostly) Note that cheap IC testers are just truth-table checkers. They cannot identify parts that are out of their rated electrical specs, but which can still drive the load provided by the tester to an acceptable logic level. They are no good for checking timing characteristics, input loading, output drive, etc. This is one reason why such testers cannot distinguish, say, between ordinary gates and logically-equivalent buffers. Similarly, they cannot identify parts that need external components to operate, such as one-shots. As such simple testers go, I have one of these, which is conveniently self-contained: http://www.elexp.com/tst_100.htm The device is called the "Leaper-1" and is sold widely, but Electronix Express has the best price that I could find. An advantage of a PC-based tester, such as the testing function on a device programmer, is that some will let you program your own test vectors. --Bill From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:14:34 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:14:34 -0400 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen > captures from "Desk Set": > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ Quick quiz - who designed the floor? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:17:14 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:17:14 -0400 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: > The above publication claimed differently. Stated that although ESD does > not destroy TTL function, immunty to noise and (IIRC) switching speeds > are impacted because of damage to gate structures. Long term reliability also takes a hit, even if noise immunity and speed are not impacted. -- Will From grant at stockly.com Sat Sep 1 21:18:31 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:18:31 -0800 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <0JNP00EGAYEGL780@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 05:42 PM 9/1/2007, you wrote: >Awhile back, perhaps early '80s, there was a paper or monograph from >Tektronix which discussed affects of ESD on TTL. Many people >believe(d) that ESD can damage or destroy MOS parts, but that there >is no effect on TTL parts. > >The above publication claimed differently. Stated that although ESD >does not destroy TTL function, immunty to noise and (IIRC) switching >speeds are impacted because of damage to gate structures. I thought static could poke holes in (that might have been a simple description) or separate PN / NP junctions which in the end didn't impact function but current capacity. I think this was specifically talking about mosfets. Grant From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 21:33:56 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > --I suppose giving one 12v to simulate hooking up a > power supply wrong? > --Hooking 12v to a device normally powered at 5v? > --Shorting out a buffer output? (I think some > buffers are designed > to be shorted out though) > --Vehicle ignition coil to an input? : D Reverse ground and +5v Clock an input way too fast Heat it up far too much (soldering iron/heat gun) Microwave oven. Shufffle....shuffle...shuffle..shuffle....ZAP! Or, of course, to make things appear dead or damaged, all you need to do is manually short an input or output to ground with a wire. Some chips are suprisingly resiliant. I once tried to kill a mask PROM on purpose using static electricity. It took at least three or four good zaps to kill it. -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 1 21:38:07 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:38:07 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and racks Message-ID: <46DA220F.2020004@bitsavers.org> > anyone interested in picking things up here in Columbus would be difficult. These are wright-line freestanding racks without rollup doors? The computer muesuem was looking for some, but we were just offered six at JPL. > anyone know of any use for 9 track tapes ? I have lots of tapes that have broken wright-line seals. If you can't find anyone to take them all, I could use the seals, though it's likely you're using the hard plastic auto-load types if they were used with a 3420. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 1 21:43:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:43:56 -0700 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <46D9C0FC.4056.784B9C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2007 at 21:59, Mike Loewen wrote: > If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen > captures from "Desk Set": > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ There's not a lot here to go on--but the printing unit looks to me like an IBM 402/403 accounting machine and the tape drives like 727s. A bunch of 024/026 keypunches, a 533 read/punch unit and what looks to be a 705 console in the far background. The blinkenlights display, on the other hand, really looks as if it was reused for several TV series... Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 21:49:22 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 9 track tapes and racks In-Reply-To: <200709012023.l81KNC2j021807@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <551697.15839.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Question One: anyone interested in picking things up > here in Columbus, contact me offlist. > > Question Two: anyone know of any use for 9 track > tapes ? > Most definitely - I am in need of nine track tapes. Columbus, where? -Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 1 21:55:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070901195329.F2103@shell.lmi.net> Hand it over to a college administator? or a professor of "Computer Science"? give it a fixed term warranty? From grant at stockly.com Sat Sep 1 21:59:01 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:59:01 -0800 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <28447.92289.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <28447.92289.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JNQ0036K09X6K70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >As such simple testers go, I have one of these, >which is conveniently self-contained: > > http://www.elexp.com/tst_100.htm > >The device is called the "Leaper-1" and is >sold widely, but Electronix Express has the >best price that I could find. That is the exact device I'm going to buy next. Can it tell the difference between a 12/10 or a bad 10 to a good one? Have you ever found a chip that tested good but was bad? >An advantage of a PC-based tester, such as the >testing function on a device programmer, >is that some will let you program your own test >vectors. This one can't do custom vectors I think. Its a cheap made in china device. I thought that I could have a recommendation for a cheap and expensive device. Also being able to program/read EPROMs and microcontrollers was a point in favor of the cheap TOP2004. I did just find a bad 7400 in my pile of "tainted" chips. : ) It wouldn't detect as anything. The worst thing to have is a false positive. I would much rather have a tester that returned false negatives. Grant From grant at stockly.com Sat Sep 1 22:07:37 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:07:37 -0800 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA1956.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <46DA1956.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0JNQ003GI0OA6K70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >>On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak >>500%. Its running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot >>hotter! I need heat sinks... > >God what next ... 12 bits? >Ben alias woodelf If I told you, I might loose some credibility! ; ) Grant From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 1 22:25:37 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:25:37 -0600 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DA2D31.5020802@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Some chips are suprisingly resiliant. I once tried to > kill a mask PROM on purpose using static electricity. > It took at least three or four good zaps to kill it. Wonders if I have any old TTL to toss in the toaster ??? So far I tend to toast transistors in a high voltage ( 300 Volt) power supply. > -Ian PS. Any body got a good schematic for a low noise 300 volt 220 ma power supply with low ripple. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 1 22:25:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:25:03 -0700 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <46D9CA9F.14547.7AA5E63@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2007 at 22:14, William Donzelli wrote: > > If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen > > captures from "Desk Set": > > > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ > > Quick quiz - who designed the floor? Only because I'm old enough, but that floor design looks like the work of Piet Mondrian. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Sep 1 22:26:49 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:26:49 -0700 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV References: Message-ID: <46DA2D78.8B0E040A@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen > > captures from "Desk Set": > > > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ > > Quick quiz - who designed the floor? It has all the appearance of being by Mondrian, along the lines of "Composition with Red, Blue and Yellow". () The hardware appears to be a mixture of perhaps 700-series tape drives, assorted card equipment and a made-up "CPU" to fulfill the poular expectations of many blinkenlights. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 22:29:23 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:29:23 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO In-Reply-To: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> On 9/1/07, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/8-Free-Vintage-Computers-IBM-Sun-NEC-in-St-Louis_W0QQitemZ200148007909QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > too bad the NEC 9801 is missing the k/b :( I guess according to his rules it's already gone (there's a 1 penny bid.) Too bad, there are a few interesting machines there. If the winner is up Chicago-way and has some cast-offs, let me know. -- j From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 1 22:53:19 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 23:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: <46D9C0FC.4056.784B9C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46D9C0FC.4056.784B9C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The blinkenlights display, on the other hand, really looks as if it > was reused for several TV series... It was. If you remember Irwin Allen's "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" series, you'll find the light panel on the Seaview: http://www.vttbots.com/interiors_1.html According to that page, it was also used in "The Invisible Boy" and "The Fly". Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cpfeeney at carolina.rr.com Sun Sep 2 02:16:33 2007 From: cpfeeney at carolina.rr.com (Christopher Feeney) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 03:16:33 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com> I'm sure you hate this question, but did anything ever happen with Don Maslin's disk collection? I spoke with and exchanged disks with Don over the years and just tonight learned of his death. I'm looking for the MS-DOS 2.11 bootdisk for the Sanyo MBC 555-2 From hugh at blemings.org Sun Sep 2 05:58:40 2007 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:58:40 +1000 Subject: [Free] Assorted Bits & Pieces (Australia) Message-ID: <20070902205840.a00cf9cd.hugh@blemings.org> Hi, I've been lurking on the list for a while now enjoying the various discussions. Being my first post I'm hoping this email isn't out of place - just hate to junk stuff if it is of use/interest to someone else. I apologise in advance if it truly is complete rubbish - even feedback to that effect is useful, can chuck it with confidence then :) So - the following items are available for the cost of postage or for pickup from Canberra. - Hardware - Motorola "Versamodule Monoboard Microcomputer" 68000 based, c.1980 has a two gold plated edge connectors, one 60 way, other 70 way, board is 14.5" x 9". Also have a matching prototyping board but no backplane or other information. Electrical condition unknown, physically boards are ok but a few bent pins. Advanced Gravis Mousestick Controller - ADB Model for Mac SE, II Classic and LC. Dusty but believed to be working.. - Software - OpenVMS Alpha Operating System V7.1 Binaries December 1996 Novell Netware 4.11 and Groupwise 5.2 Spectrum Holobyte "Vette" Street Racing Simulation - Mac Plus or Mac II Microsoft Flight Simulator V4.0 For Mac Plus, Classic, LC, SE, SE/30 or other Mac II family computer. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Sep 2 06:57:33 2007 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 21:27:33 +0930 Subject: [Free] Assorted Bits & Pieces (Australia) In-Reply-To: <20070902205840.a00cf9cd.hugh@blemings.org> References: <20070902205840.a00cf9cd.hugh@blemings.org> Message-ID: <200709022127.34149.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 08:28:40 pm Hugh Blemings wrote: > Hi, > > I've been lurking on the list for a while now enjoying the various > discussions. Ditto > > Being my first post I'm hoping this email isn't out of place - just hate to > junk stuff if it is of use/interest to someone else. > > I apologise in advance if it truly is complete rubbish - even feedback to > that effect is useful, can chuck it with confidence then :) > > So - the following items are available for the cost of postage or for > pickup from Canberra. > > > - Hardware - > > Motorola "Versamodule Monoboard Microcomputer" 68000 based, c.1980 has a > two gold plated edge connectors, one 60 way, other 70 way, board is 14.5" x > 9". Also have a matching prototyping board but no backplane or other > information. Electrical condition unknown, physically boards are ok but a > few bent pins. Nice! How much to post to Adelaide? Cheers. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 2 12:31:26 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:31:26 -0700 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <46DAF36E.1000807@bitsavers.org> > but did anything ever happen with Don > Maslin's disk collection? It is assumed to be lost. Parallel efforts are ongoing to build collections from what survives in other sources. Sadly, a dozen book boxes of 8" disks that I gave him when I didn't have the time to do anything with them are gone as well. Fortunately the really obscure stuff was already read from the set. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 2 13:52:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 14:52:55 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <46DAF36E.1000807@bitsavers.org> References: <46DAF36E.1000807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6939235A-93FC-4E98-B7D9-364D862F3F2E@neurotica.com> On Sep 2, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > but did anything ever happen with Don > > Maslin's disk collection? > > It is assumed to be lost. So what actually happened...did his family just throw it all in the trash or something? Does anyone know? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 2 15:29:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 13:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com> References: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <20070902132855.F31999@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Christopher Feeney wrote: > I'm sure you hate this question, but did anything ever happen with Don > Maslin's disk collection? I spoke with and exchanged disks with Don over > the years and just tonight learned of his death. The world lost a lot when he died. And his collection is gone, too. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 16:14:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 22:14:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> from "Grant Stockly" at Sep 1, 7 05:29:49 pm Message-ID: > What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a > TTL device or simulate static failure. I'd like to try to test how > thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the > difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for > knowing the chip works (mostly) IIRC, the 7410 is a triple 3-input NAND gate (totem pole outputs), the 7412 is the open-collector version. If it can't tell those apart, how can it reject a 7410 where one or more of the 'top' transsitors in the totem pole output have failed? And yes, I've had that failure mode (actually in 74H series devices). FOr that matter can it tell if 3-state outputs are working correctly (rather than, say, being stuck high when they should be disabled)? If you twant to simulate simple failures, how about wiring the IC to a DIL header with one or more pins open-circuited (and maybe tying pins that should be outputs to ground rather than to the output pin of the chip). -tony From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Sep 2 17:35:01 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:35:01 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <200709020304.l8233WQ7043527@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709020304.l8233WQ7043527@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <91E0C6EA-3211-4E34-B5F5-A9D668732CBF@microspot.co.uk> > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > Ireland. > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 2 18:46:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:46:15 -0700 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20070902132855.F31999@shell.lmi.net> References: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com>, <20070902132855.F31999@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DAE8D7.11329.C086AB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2007 at 13:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > And his collection is gone, too. Fortunately, for everyone, Don was generous with his material. I suspect that a fair amount can be obtained from those with whom he regularly corresponded. I know that I have a few of his samples. Cheers, Chuck From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sun Sep 2 21:10:40 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:10:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188785440.46db6d20ebe25@www.jblaser.org> I've got a H771-A (120V/60Hz) that's acting up on me. Part of an old PDP-11/03 that I'm trying to get back on its feet. As I've done with 4 or 5 other RX units in the past couple of years, after cleaning it up and reforming the capacitors, but before plugging everything together, I wanted to check output voltages. I'm sure glad I did because this guy is not normal! Where you usually see 24V, I'm getting 42V! And the so- called 'Raw DC' which is normally around 10V is 17V. At least the +/-5V lines are more or less correct at +5.1V and -5.3V, respectively. I need some help here. I've checked the printset on this, and frankly, this analog stuff is so much voodoo (to me). I get lost pretty quickly unless the circuit is simple, say, like a flashlight. Anyway, I've checked a number of voltages and voltage drops at various places[1] that I thought might lead me to something, but I can't say that I'm any wiser now. I'm sure this is fixable, even by me, IF I can locate out the faulty component(s). Hints or guidance on what else I should look at would surely be appreciated! - Jared [1] Here are voltage readings taken at a few locations: - Transformer outputs (these look normal): blue: 27.8VAC purple: 11.2VAC - PCB connector P1: 2 (blu): -5.3v 3 (blk): 0v 4 (gry/red): 5.1v 5 (blk): 0v 6 (red): 42v (should be 24v!!!) - PCB connector P2: 1 (org): 17v (should be 9.5v!!!) 3 (blk): 0v 4 (gry/red): 5.1v 5 (blk): 0v - Voltage drop across: D5 15v Zener: 17v D11 6.8v Zener: 7v R12: 25v R13: 12v From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 21:21:50 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:21:50 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Tangerine (the Microtan) >.... > Oric (offshoot of Tangerine, made Oric-1 and Atmos) I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? Also, I'm certain I remember seeing "Tangerine" etched on the PCBs of the Orics I used to own. > Transam (the Tuscan) They produced at least one other (8080 based) machine prior to the Tuscan, but for the life of me I cannot remember what it was called; like the Tuscan it appeared as a build it yourself series in ETI. > Memotech Originally a maker of add-ons for the ZX-81, RAM packs etc. Great machines IMHO. TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 2 21:23:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:23:07 -0700 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA2D31.5020802@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46DA2D31.5020802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DB0D9B.28772.C9806BC@cclist.sydex.com> Ian Primus wrote: > Some chips are suprisingly resiliant. I once tried to > kill a mask PROM on purpose using static electricity. > It took at least three or four good zaps to kill it. Aw, Ian, if you're serious about this, you need your own HiPot. Lots of fun trying to zap operation pieces of equipment with one. Or build your own Marx generator, for even more spectacular results: http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/marxthree.html Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 21:27:42 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:27:42 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <00ca01c7edd2$019d9c90$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > RAIR Black box RAIR was a British company???? You learn summat new every day! You can also add the "Mimi" from "British Micro" to that list. We had a lab full of them at Leicester Polytechnic when I was there. I believe they ran CP/M but I can't verify that since the course I was on used the Superbrain lab.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 21:28:53 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:28:53 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <00d501c7edd2$2c10c4c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Not forgetting Sinclair Why!?? I'm trying *VERY* hard....they don't even make passable doorstops.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 21:35:12 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:35:12 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <166237.48415.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f401c7edd3$0dab4900$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS RML RML RML.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Sep 2 22:07:39 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quay 900 (generic S-100) systems available in Denver Message-ID: Anyone interested in these? http://www.siconic.com/crap/Quay-900-1.jpg http://www.siconic.com/crap/Quay-900-2.jpg They are in Denver, Colorado. I have a couple myself, though they are not "Quay" branded. Mine are generically generic (no branding at all). I believe they have Godbout inside. ContactP: Alan -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] _______________________________________________ BACCL mailing list BACCL at lists.baccl.net http://lists.baccl.net/mailman/listinfo/baccl From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 2 22:21:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:21:17 -0600 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DB0D9B.28772.C9806BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46DA2D31.5020802@jetnet.ab.ca> <46DB0D9B.28772.C9806BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DB7DAD.70100@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Or build your own Marx generator, for even more spectacular results: > > http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/marxthree.html Well that is fun, but right now I am planning to toast transistors. I plan to build a 300 volt power supply @ 230 ma but the transformer under line high conditions is 415 volts. All the transistors I can find easily are 400 vceo. Ben alias woodelf PS. All the heatsinks I can find are good to 5 watts. I need about a 30 watt heat sink... Sigh. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Sep 2 22:56:40 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quay 900 (generic S-100) systems available in Denver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <667068.53944.qm@web82610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Anyone interested in these? > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Quay-900-1.jpg > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Quay-900-2.jpg > > They are in Denver, Colorado. > > I have a couple myself, though they are not "Quay" > branded. Mine are > generically generic (no branding at all). I believe > they have Godbout > inside. I used a Quay system briefly in 1980 that looked like these. The innards appeared to be proprietary, and were built on a couple of large boards mounted horizontally, IIRC, not S-100 style. --Bill From legalize at xmission.com Sun Sep 2 23:13:16 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:13:16 -0600 Subject: Quay 900 (generic S-100) systems available in Denver In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:07:39 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Sellam Ismail writes: > Anyone interested in these? The terminals look interesting; are they part of the deal? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 2 23:21:31 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 21:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from Ensor at "Sep 3, 7 03:21:50 am" Message-ID: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com> > I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from > Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? Yes, I believe that is correct. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everything you think you know is wrong. -- Jack Chalker -------------------- From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 23:26:32 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 05:26:32 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local><46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <01fc01c7ede2$9b90fa30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> >> Transam (the Tuscan) > > They produced at least one other (8080 based) machine prior >to the Tuscan, but for the life of me I cannot remember what >it was called.... Ah, the "Triton"! I knew it would come back to me. :-) TTFN - Pete. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 2 23:34:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 21:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com> References: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070902213404.N44792@shell.lmi.net> > I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from > Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? . . . but does it have the true personality of the Oric computer on Blake's 7? From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 3 00:04:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 01:04:00 -0400 Subject: President Computer? Message-ID: <006d01c7ede7$d88cc180$eb4df945@evan> Hi all, Anyone heard of an Australian company called President Computer, circa early/mid 1980s? - Evan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 00:08:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 00:08:57 -0500 Subject: Belgian computers? Message-ID: I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. I'm mostly interested in 1980s micros, but any sort of machines would be germane. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 00:53:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:53:15 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <789006.72792.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46D856CC.6743.1FDF41B@cclist.sydex.com>, <789006.72792.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DB3EDB.14882.D5864FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 18:09, Chris M wrote: > You can get into trouble by using *cpu* on this list > I see. I should know better. I should have said mine > don't have the uP's. MPU would have done just fine. An MPU does not necessarily a CPU make. > These come with rom based word processor, spread- > sheet, etc., and are said to be worth less then the > silicon they're *printed on*. So I guess there's no > point in inquiring whether a 6510 or such could be > hacked in. But you got to admit, it would be fun regardless. It depends on how determined you are. I suspect that even a 65C02 with an appropriate amount of external "glue" to provide the 7 I/O port pins could be pressed into servce. I haven't had the cover off on the one that I have (and may not bother), but I understand that a 7501 MPU was used. As I understand it, location 0000 was used for the port data and 0001 was used to set the direction on the port pins. BTW, the original owner of mine seems to have had the reaction that I did when powering this one up--"ho hum". Mine appears to have been tried once or twice then put away--the box has all of the original packing right down to the twist-ties on the PSU cables. I've also got a 1541 drive that has a game (name escapes me) diskette for the box. The 40x25 text limitation really is too bad. Better keyboard than most modern notebook computers with an odd layout. If you want to buy or trade for my Plus 4 and 1541, drop me a line. I'll even toss in the printer. Cheers, Chuck From janprunk at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 05:21:33 2007 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 12:21:33 +0200 Subject: Computer books from the years 1970-1990 for sale Message-ID: Hello ! Old computer books for sale or trade. I still have most of the collection available. The books vary from the years 1970-1990 The collection contains books about: LISP, Data management, Artificial Intelligence, Automatic data processing, Computer programming etc. >From publishers like: McGraw Hill, M&T Books, Wiley Press, Microsoft They are all in English language and in good condition. The price for one book is 3 Euros + postage. The books are shipped from Slovenia, Europe. I could also trade the books for some older computers. The link to the list is available at: http://yang.mtveurope.org/books.html If you are interested, contact me to my private email address. Kind regards, Jan Prunk -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jan Prunk GPG key: 00E80E86 | | E-mail: jan at prunk.be Fingerprint: 77C5 156E 29A4 EB6C 1C4A | | http://blog.prunk.be 5EBA 414A 29F5 00E8 0E86 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Sep 2 09:15:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:15:01 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA66@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well that's interesting.... How much of it will be running? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 02 September 2007 00:50 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. Rod Smallwood wrote: > A passing thought.. should there be a British Section at Bletchley? Don't worry, there will be :-) Plus there'll be various other British machines littering other sections (Inmos, ICL, Elliott, Marconi, BCL, Digico, Diamond etc.) which naturally fit better with some of the other 'themes'. I'm not quite sure when the room with the focus on British machines will come on-line; notionally we're starting at the top end of the building (Colossus, Tunny et al, workshop, really big iron, analogue machines) and working our way down the corridor room-by-room. The 'British Room' is about halfway down - hopefully get to that one in around 6 months or so. It's slow going as every room ends up having to be gutted, cleaned and repainted... I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there first; did Ireland ever make any micros? We spent today doing some final assessment work on the ICL 2966 mainframe prior to its move to final destination (as well as the 40 or so cabinets there seems to be a metric buttload of spares). Wall-painting's now finished in the room that it'll be going in to, and a couple of different firms are coming in on Monday to see the beast and give us a quote for moving it. If all goes well hopefully it'll get shifted in the next couple of weeks... cheers Jules From paul0926 at comcast.net Sun Sep 2 11:29:57 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:29:57 -0600 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 1, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Jason T wrote: > > I guess according to his rules it's already gone (there's a 1 penny > bid.) Too bad, there are a few interesting machines there. Yeah, that was pretty stupid. I would have paid more than a penny and picked up the equipment as well. We didn't have much time, did we? Paul From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 3 00:33:00 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 06:33:00 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Not as far as I know, but BARCO are a big Belgian maker of TV's and monitors. They may have been involved. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 03 September 2007 06:09 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Belgian computers? I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. I'm mostly interested in 1980s micros, but any sort of machines would be germane. -ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 3 00:42:47 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 06:42:47 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I think the Blakes 7 computer may have been called ZEN. ORAC on Blakes 7 was a device that could predict the future. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 03 September 2007 05:35 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. > I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name > from Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? . . . but does it have the true personality of the Oric computer on Blake's 7? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 3 01:52:06 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 07:52:06 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <20070902213404.N44792@shell.lmi.net> References: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com> <20070902213404.N44792@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DBAF16.6020303@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/09/2007 05:34, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from >> Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? > > . . . but does it have the true personality of the Oric computer on > Blake's 7? That's "Orac" :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Sep 3 05:31:25 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:31:25 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DBE27D.7050805@gifford.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, > and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the > list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. Wasn't there an 8080 or Z80 machine called the DAI that was Belgian? I seem to recall wanting one when I saw the specs, but I can't quite remember why -- maybe it had the TI sprite graphics chip? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From laurens at daemon.be Mon Sep 3 05:42:56 2007 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 10:42:56 +0000 Subject: Belgian computers? Message-ID: <20070903104256.6802.qmail@sequoia.daemon.be> John Honniball wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, >> and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the >> list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. > > Wasn't there an 8080 or Z80 machine called the DAI that was Belgian? > I seem to recall wanting one when I saw the specs, but I can't > quite remember why -- maybe it had the TI sprite graphics chip? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAI_Personal_Computer That's the first I heard about a Belgian computer. Not sure whether you'll actually find one seen that I never came across one (and in fact, I didn't even know we made computers at one time...) From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 3 04:48:13 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:48:13 +0100 Subject: British Computers Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> DEC Did indeed make systems in Ireland. There where two plants one in Galway and something else at Clonmel I went to Galway loads of times. It was a big FA&T operation assembling 11/34's, 11/70's etc. VAX I suppose later. I think Clonmel was a software duplicating and packing operation for Europe. There was also a plant at Ayr in Scotland. The Scottish plant was called Silicon Glen and the Irish one Silicon Bog. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 02 September 2007 23:35 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: British Computers > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > Ireland. > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. From c.cooke21 at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 3 05:42:28 2007 From: c.cooke21 at ntlworld.com (Clint) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:42:28 +0100 Subject: Lonesome Minicomputer Owner Message-ID: <000a01c7ee17$215c3ce0$33f40752@talltower1> Hi, do you still have the H716 minicomputer? I worked on them from 1970 for some 20 years woth Honeywell in the UK. Do you still need help with your wonderful machine? If you are thinking of disposing of it please let me know. Regards, Clint, UK From Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Mon Sep 3 06:55:00 2007 From: Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com (Brennan Mark) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:55:00 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <299EB6FC242FCF47AA4118ED9365BF94815FE9@EUROPEV004.europe.fs.fujitsu.com> Hi There, I worked for Wang Computer from 1988-1996, we had a large plant in Limerick making VS and Risc/Intel systems it was also the European Hub for Wang's Network they also ran the DR solutions from that location, I also worked for as Dublin Based Company in 1986/7 hat made PC systems for Thomson. Regards mark ________________________________________________________________________ ________________ Mark Brennan, System Engineer, Fujitsu Services, Airside Business Park, Swords, County Dublin, Ireland Mobile: +353-87-222-2326 Telephone: +353-1-813 6000 Facsimile: +353-1-813 6600 email: mark.brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Web: ie.fujitsu.com This e-mail is only for the use of its intended recipient. Its contents are subject to a duty of confidence and may be privileged. Fujitsu Services does not guarantee that this e-mail has not been intercepted and amended or that it is virus-free. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood Sent: 03 September 2007 10:48 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: RE: British Computers DEC Did indeed make systems in Ireland. There where two plants one in Galway and something else at Clonmel I went to Galway loads of times. It was a big FA&T operation assembling 11/34's, 11/70's etc. VAX I suppose later. I think Clonmel was a software duplicating and packing operation for Europe. There was also a plant at Ayr in Scotland. The Scottish plant was called Silicon Glen and the Irish one Silicon Bog. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 02 September 2007 23:35 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: British Computers > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > Ireland. > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. From pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Mon Sep 3 07:57:12 2007 From: pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 13:57:12 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: British Computers Message-ID: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> > I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there > first; did Ireland ever make any micros? Several multinationals had or have a presence in Ireland including: Amdahl Apple Dell Digital EMC Fujitsu Siemens Gateway HP IBM Memorex Many of these built computers or peripherals here for the European market. However, it is pretty much the same as equipment thats found everywhere else in the world. I am not aware of anything that could be regarded as being uniquely Irish in the same way that for example Acorn kit could be regarded as being British. Intel also have a large manufacturing presence here as have/had Analog Devices and Motorola (although I think Motorolas operation here was more involved in mobile phones) so unfortunately we're responsible for the production of lots of x86 type microprocessors. I hope none of them were designed here, especially the ones that couldn't divide accurately :-) > >Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. > I was disappointed to find that my Mac SE from Cork doesn't have any signatures inside the case so I guess they didn't copy the case moulds used in the US. Regards, Peter. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Sep 3 08:21:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <200709011632.25286.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200709011632.25286.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709031529.LAA12541@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I cobbled together a breadboard of TTL (mostly latches/counters and >> muxes) which, with suitable software support on the host, lets me >> read ROMs via a parallel port. [...] > That would be of interest to me. Okay, I'll see if I can't put together a schematic. > Also of interest would be something similar that would allow writing > to a RAM chip that would appear as read-only to an 8-bit target > system. I have *lots* of TTL on hand here... :-) I did that, once. I have a TVI955 (what would now be called a dumb terminal, but in its time was called a smart terminal). It includes three ROMs. One is the terminal firmware, one is a character generator, and one is a user-supplied firmware (there's an escape sequence in the standard firmware that jumps to the user-supplied firmeware). I once put together a simple game that ran entirely in the terminal, in the user-supplied-firmware ROM.... I pulled the character-generator ROM and replaced it with flying wires to a breadboard on which I had a similar amount of RAM, plus logic to allow a host to write to it via a serial line. This gave me downloadable characters. It wasn't a very good setup; something about it (the flying wires, at a guess) produced lots of read errors, appearing as snow on the screen. And the way the host wrote to it was cycle-stealing; while the host was writing, the read circuits got garbage - 0xff, or the data being written, probably - which produced more artifacts on the screen. Definitely not suitable for firmware, for which read errors would be fatal, but tolerable for hacking around with character bitmaps. Unfortunately that breadboard circuit has been torn down long since. But I still have the ROM-reader circuit; I'll put together a schematic and parts list for that and drop a note here when it's done. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 3 12:07:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:07:20 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <01fc01c7ede2$9b90fa30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local><46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <01fc01c7ede2$9b90fa30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46DC3F48.5070505@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: > >> Transam (the Tuscan) > > > They produced at least one other (8080 based) machine prior > >to the Tuscan, but for the life of me I cannot remember what > >it was called.... > > Ah, the "Triton"! I knew it would come back to me. :-) Quite by chance I stumbled across an ETI magazine today which announced the system on the front cover as the "ETI Triton"; I didn't have time to read the article itself, but found some more literature which said that the designer created the machine for "Transam and ETI", as though it were some sort of joint venture. I've set the magazine to one side at the museum; I'll have to have a proper read of the article when I get chance. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 3 12:13:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:13:39 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA66@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA66@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46DC40C3.4000705@yahoo.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: [BP stuff] > Well that's interesting.... > How much of it will be running? Well the aim is for as much as possible; I suspect we can manage 95% for the machines actually set up on display, but then there'll probably be other things on shelves or incomplete so that people can see their internals etc. Not 95% at once, of course - but 95% capable of running whenever the relevant people who know how to operate and look after them are on site :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 3 12:32:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 3 Sep 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I think the Blakes 7 computer may have been called ZEN. > ORAC on Blakes 7 was a device that could predict the future. "What qualifies as a computer?" Zen and Orac were both computers, although with different characteristics and personalities, and emphasis at different times in the epic. From nickandlori at charter.net Mon Sep 3 12:34:16 2007 From: nickandlori at charter.net (Nick) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:34:16 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com><51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> > On Sep 1, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> >> I guess according to his rules it's already gone (there's a 1 penny >> bid.) Too bad, there are a few interesting machines there. > > Yeah, that was pretty stupid. I would have paid more than a penny and > picked up the equipment as well. We didn't have much time, did we? > > Paul > These computers were given to me over the years, selling them off didn't seem right. I've found that eBay auctions with local pickup only works better than craigslist or freecycle, both of which I've tried with these. Nick From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 12:40:28 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:40:28 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO In-Reply-To: <007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> <007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> Message-ID: <51ea77730709031040n58af5e67n3e48e56494c1eafd@mail.gmail.com> On 9/3/07, Nick wrote: > > These computers were given to me over the years, selling them off didn't > seem right. I've found that eBay auctions with local pickup only works > better than craigslist or freecycle, both of which I've tried with these. Ebay is certainly better as far as getting the word out (and this list, of course :) Hey, didn't I drive down and pick up an Iris system from you a few years ago? From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 12:50:49 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 18:50:49 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my collecting urge. I should think old/slow ones would be cheap enough on eBay, though. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:00:38 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:00:38 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709031100w305efa9exae348aa9c434ce43@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 3 Sep 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I think the Blakes 7 computer may have been called ZEN. > > ORAC on Blakes 7 was a device that could predict the future. > > "What qualifies as a computer?" > > Zen and Orac were both computers, although with different characteristics > and personalities, and emphasis at different times in the epic. And, IIRC, "Slave" at a late stage. (And I wasn't even a particular fan of Blake's 7, tho' I always rated it above Dr Who.) All voiced by Peter Tuddenham, AIR. Died just this July, aged 88. :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:01:59 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:01:59 -0700 Subject: Quay 900 (generic S-100) systems available in Denver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > The terminals look interesting; are they part of the deal? The terminal on the right looks like a Soroc 120. Could the one on the left be a Soroc 140, the keyboard is different..... There are probably a lot less of these around than the S100 mainframe. PaX -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 13:19:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:19:53 -0700 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DBEDD9.9540.1003F5B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2007 at 10:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > "What qualifies as a computer?" > > Zen and Orac were both computers, although with different characteristics > and personalities, and emphasis at different times in the epic. ...and let's not forget Holly; although I suspect now we're getting into the difference between AI and computer. (Very sorry for the OT posting, Jay) Cheers, Chuck From nickandlori at charter.net Mon Sep 3 13:37:12 2007 From: nickandlori at charter.net (Nick) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:37:12 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com><51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com><007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> <51ea77730709031040n58af5e67n3e48e56494c1eafd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401c7ee59$7156ea50$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> >> These computers were given to me over the years, selling them off didn't >> seem right. I've found that eBay auctions with local pickup only works >> better than craigslist or freecycle, both of which I've tried with these. > > Ebay is certainly better as far as getting the word out (and this > list, of course :) > > Hey, didn't I drive down and pick up an Iris system from you a few years > ago? > Yep, that one sold for $0.06 since I let it run its course. My wife had never been happier to see anything leave the house, it was a monster. Nick From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 3 13:44:32 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Sep 3, 7 06:50:49 pm" Message-ID: <200709031844.l83IiX6K013312@floodgap.com> > On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... > > I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned > 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my > collecting urge. > > I should think old/slow ones would be cheap enough on eBay, though. If you want an interesting/exotic AIX machine, I think the Apple Network Servers will fill the bill. They only run their tweaked version of AIX 4 (you can coerce them into running Linux or NetBSD, but that's dull, man!), they're really nice looking machines and they are cantankerous enough to be fun to mess with. Most people dump them when they find out they won't run Mac OS (or at least won't run without a lot of extremely tedious work, and then won't run well). This E-mail comes to you from an ANS 500 with a 200MHz card, which has been my favourite ornery beast since 1998 and has run continuously since then. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" ---------------------- From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Sep 3 13:52:43 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:52:43 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20397e214feb252eef01bafcbced0089@mac.com> AGFA made some computer equipment for its digital printing and PrePress equipment. UNIX derived language running on 2 or 3 paralleled 68040 or powerPC boards. These were fitted into heavy metal cases with grey fronts. No Monitor or keyboard, you hooked up a terminal to a serial port AGFA are based outside of Antwerp > I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, > and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the > list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. > I'm mostly interested in 1980s micros, but any sort of machines would > be germane. > > -ethan > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:03:05 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:03:05 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO In-Reply-To: <001401c7ee59$7156ea50$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> <007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> <51ea77730709031040n58af5e67n3e48e56494c1eafd@mail.gmail.com> <001401c7ee59$7156ea50$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> Message-ID: <51ea77730709031203s72fb6af1tf6661dd560821db4@mail.gmail.com> On 9/3/07, Nick wrote: > > Hey, didn't I drive down and pick up an Iris system from you a few years > > ago? > > > > Yep, that one sold for $0.06 since I let it run its course. My wife had > never been happier to see anything leave the house, it was a monster. It's still downstairs, still nearly immobile :) I never got a console up on it, and then it sat for a while 'til a friend bought a Crimson with a dead PSU, and the Iris became a donor. Someday I'll get around to taking another crack at it. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Sep 3 13:20:23 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:20:23 -0300 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <01C7EE3E.1D2203E0@MSE_D03> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 03:16:33 -0400 From: "Christopher Feeney" Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive To: Message-ID: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'm sure you hate this question, but did anything ever happen with Don >Maslin's disk collection? I spoke with and exchanged disks with Don over >the years and just tonight learned of his death. I'm looking for the MS-DOS 2.11 bootdisk for the Sanyo MBC 555-2 ------------------------------------ I should have a Teledisk image somewhere that I got from Don a few years back. Email me off-list so I'll be reminded when I get back to the office in a few days. mike From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Sep 3 14:55:23 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 20:55:23 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1295698f86f39db8f66e1b7c6a4c6ac3@mac.com> On 3 Sep 2007, at 06:33, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Not as far as I know, but BARCO are a big Belgian maker of TV's and > monitors. > They may have been involved. > > Rod > BARCO were big with Air traffic control systems i think. From scheefj at netscape.net Mon Sep 3 15:04:00 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:04:00 -0400 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DC68B0.4050309@netscape.net> Richard, Some thoughts: * Cooling requirements can be adjusted based on how many machines are running at the same time and for how long. * Winter cooling needs may be nill, or even undesireable. * Dehumidification is probably more important to the collection than heating or cooling. My "machine room" is a section of the basement - a naturally cool place except during the hottest, most humid days of summer. I run a simple dehumidifier as needed during the summer and leave the door open to the upstairs to allow heat to rise. In winter the machines contribute to keeping the basement a little warmer. My running machines are 2-3 PC-based servers plus a microVax and occasionally 1-2 machines under test. This is closer to a "server garden" than what you want to run. But cooling may be less of a problem if continuous operation is not the goal. Jim Richard wrote: > In article <68073390 at web.de>, > Pierre Gebhardt writes: > > >> in order to get another impression of what it means to build a machine ro= >> om, have a look >> at Bernd Ulmann's website: www.vaxman.de >> > > That was an interesting read, thanks! > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:13:24 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:13:24 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031844.l83IiX6K013312@floodgap.com> References: <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031844.l83IiX6K013312@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > > > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > > > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > > > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > > > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > > > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > > > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... > > > > I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned > > 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my > > collecting urge. > > > > I should think old/slow ones would be cheap enough on eBay, though. > > If you want an interesting/exotic AIX machine, I think the Apple Network > Servers will fill the bill. They only run their tweaked version of AIX 4 > (you can coerce them into running Linux or NetBSD, but that's dull, man!), > they're really nice looking machines and they are cantankerous enough to > be fun to mess with. Most people dump them when they find out they won't > run Mac OS (or at least won't run without a lot of extremely tedious work, > and then won't run well). > > This E-mail comes to you from an ANS 500 with a 200MHz card, which has > been my favourite ornery beast since 1998 and has run continuously since > then. Oooh, that's true! I forgot about those! Yes, if someone offered me one of those, I'd take their arm off! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:29:26 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:29:26 -0700 Subject: holy crap, another Cat on ePay! In-Reply-To: <497194.11193.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <497194.11193.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090709031329p744b19cbt99e53402ea6fd41a@mail.gmail.com> The canon cat on ebay sold for $788.89 not 2 shabby On 8/30/07, Chris M wrote: > > well it is summer time. The time when oftentimes you > can find bargains on eBay. Remember though...the last > one ended an order of magnitude higher then the > current bid. It's bound to go considerably higher. > Now that I'm back in Joisy for a bit, I'm going to > crack open my Cat hopefully, to get a gander at it's > innards. Problem: that's my old bedroom, and all the > other *cats* spent the winter in there. Place is > loaded w/fleas LOL LOL. I'm not supposed to go in > there at all! > > --- dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com> > AND NO PAYMENTS > > NECESSARY UNTIL 2008! WOOHOO!> > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-CANON-CAT-WORK-PROCESSOR-Jef-Raskin_W0QQitemZ110162860314QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > > I might be selling mine soon. Need a house. Tired > > of> sleeping in the car LOL LOL LOL.> > > Hi > > You might want to hold off for a while. I suspect > > that the market is > > reaching saturation. There just aren't that many > > that are expecting > > to pay $600+ for a Cat. > > For those that are interested in hacking the Cat or > > writing another > > printer driver as I've done, look at the Cat info on > > the DigiBarn > > web page. I've been doing other hacking since then > > for anyone > > that is interested. I've found the video RAM and I'm > > thinking of creating > > some graphics functions. Right now I just have a > > simple XOR to > > each bit but I realize that a line drawing routine > > would be good as > > well. > > If someone on this group wants to talk offline > > about the Cat, > > let me know. It is a remarkable computer. > > Dwight > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > See what you're getting into?before you go there > > > http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready > for the edge of your seat? > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 15:46:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031844.l83IiX6K013312@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <216832.50596.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > If you want an interesting/exotic AIX machine, I > think the Apple Network > Servers will fill the bill. They only run their > tweaked version of AIX 4 So Macs have been IBM compatilbe ;) for quite some time I see! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 15:49:14 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Liam Proven wrote: > Yes, if someone offered me one of those, I'd take > their arm off! :?) Nah, not me. I'm too much of a die hard. Frankly can't even say why I'd like to explore the more *esoteric* UNIX flavas out there (especially considering the "bad press" I've been getting regarding UX, AIX,..). Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the first machine to run AIX the IBM/RT's? Googling... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 15:59:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 Message-ID: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> There are 1 of these on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 IIRC would go hand in hand w/the terminal/controller thing someone had for sale on here in the last couple of weeks. the 5364 looks cool. Needs a 5170 - no more, no less - for the front end. Even looks like an AT. Not enough krazee Big Blue stuph floating around if my opinion means anything. IINM, I spoke to a gentleman - YO DUDE! ;) - who was working on a "System/36 on a chip". Just way too groovy. Stupid Cat's final bid didn't even break 8 bills :( ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Sep 3 16:05:57 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <200709031529.LAA12541@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200709011632.25286.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709031529.LAA12541@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200709032109.RAA14346@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> I cobbled together a breadboard of TTL (mostly latches/counters and >>> muxes) which, with suitable software support on the host, lets me >>> read ROMs via a parallel port. [...] >> That would be of interest to me. > Okay, I'll see if I can't put together a schematic. On ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca there's a directory /mouse/misc/schematics/ that contains, among other things, parport-rom-reader.pbm and parport-rom-reader.txt (the former is the schematic proper; the latter, accompanying text). If you'd like it but can't handle PBM files, let me know what you can handle and I'll see what I can do. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:12:27 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:12:27 -0500 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730709031412s2a48517fy26482a6e63253cb3@mail.gmail.com> On 9/3/07, Chris M wrote: > There are 1 of these on eBay: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 I want! Oh, it's in Oklahoma. It's got to weight >150lbs, no? From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 3 16:12:09 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:12:09 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 September 2007 13:50, Liam Proven wrote: > On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... > > I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned > 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my > collecting urge. POWER is an inherently interesting processor architecture (especially the 6-chip versions), and the machines are built like a tank - even the models with a plastic case are practically bulletproof. POWER is amazingly zippy for the relative clock speed, especially for floating point ops... And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 3 16:18:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Sep 3, 7 05:12:09 pm" Message-ID: <200709032118.l83LIUei013478@floodgap.com> > And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see > how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. Ain't that the truth. (sysadmin on AIX 3.2.5 and 4.1 systems before I got my MD, and still maintain my own AIX boxen) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Really???? WOW!!!!! I'm shallow TOO!!!!! ----------------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:20:21 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:20:21 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 September 2007 13:50, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > > > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > > > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > > > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > > > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > > > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > > > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... > > > > I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned > > 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my > > collecting urge. > > POWER is an inherently interesting processor architecture (especially > the 6-chip versions), and the machines are built like a tank - even the > models with a plastic case are practically bulletproof. POWER is > amazingly zippy for the relative clock speed, especially for floating > point ops... I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see > how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. Only done a tiny bit of /very/ basic stuff, but mostly, I only keep machines around that I have some *use* for, unless they're something from my youth that I lusted over, like the Amiga/ST/QL/Archimedes. RS/6000s were impressive but I never really wanted one and I have no conceivable use for one now! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 3 16:24:47 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:24:47 -0500 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DC7B9F.2010207@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see > how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. AIX is Not Unix. Not any more than OS X is Unix. I realize that AIX (and OS X 10.5) *is* UNIX, certified and trademarked, but trying to approach it as one would a traditional unix (HP/UX, Solaris, etc) is a recipe for heartbreak. It's an extremely robust operating system with a very nice POSIX API. Under the covers, it's its very own thing. Doc From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 16:25:42 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709031412s2a48517fy26482a6e63253cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <293911.27835.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason T wrote: > On 9/3/07, Chris M wrote: > > There are 1 of these on eBay: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 > > I want! > > Oh, it's in Oklahoma. It's got to weight >150lbs, > no? I just had a shipment (SoCal > NE PA). 150 lbs., about 90$. FedEx. BE WARNED. They routinely, gratuitously, by necessity it seems beat the living hell out of everything. You NEED to have the person pack it well. Make that VERY WELL. I can pack something that could withstand an H-bomb. Others typically don't show the care :(. Granted this wasn't an old puter, but a piece of cast iron that arguably was worth 10x what I payed for it (300$). I was prepared for the worst, though it just might not turn out so bad. You gotta learn as you live. Perhaps someone near the auction can buy it, store it for a bit, if you're short of cash. I like to hold off on long distance shipments as much as possible. I keep telling myself stuff like that will turn up nearer to *home*, and will be free :). Sometimes it does. But you can't count on this stuff being available forevermore. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:34:27 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:34:27 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the real POWER processors. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:36:59 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:36:59 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DC7B9F.2010207@mdrconsult.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46DC7B9F.2010207@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709031436l111ba74co16f5e2a66a913b66@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see > > how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. > > AIX is Not Unix. Not any more than OS X is Unix. > > I realize that AIX (and OS X 10.5) *is* UNIX, certified and > trademarked, but trying to approach it as one would a traditional unix > (HP/UX, Solaris, etc) is a recipe for heartbreak. > > It's an extremely robust operating system with a very nice POSIX API. > Under the covers, it's its very own thing. I remember IBM proudly proclaiming, around the time of AIX 3, that "we've taken Unix and added 3 million lines of code to it". IBM fans looked interested; Unix fans looked faintly sick. But I have a tiny bit of exposure to AIX. It is a Unix, all right, from my experience. It's got lots of extensions, it has SMIT and things, but it's more like Unix than, say, QNX or BeOS or something, OSs which also have a bash (or sh-like) shell and POSIX. AIX is real Unix underneath: I think it was an AT&T kernel originally, it's got the classic filesystem layout, etc. etc. Mac OS X is if anything more unlike classic Unix in the canonical sense - it's Mach with a honking great kernel-space Unix layer taken from FreeBSD. I'd say there are 3 or 4 families of "Unix": - direct lineal descendants: Solaris, SCO OpenServer, HP/UX, AIX (and the whole BSD-Lite branch is a spinoff of the direct line: Free/Net/Open BSD, Dragonfly BSD, but also 386BSD, BSD/ix, BSD-OS and other long dead forms) - direct clones or intentionally-compatible: Linux is the best-known, Minix, but OS X also qualifies, & OSF/1 did too (and thus its scion Tru64), - things that aren't remotely Unix-like underneath but find it convenient to sport a layer offering some degree of Unix-compatibility: QNX, BeOS/Haiku, OpenVMS, Windows NT, some IBM offerings, I believe. Does that seem fair? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:41:08 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:41:08 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the real > POWER processors. Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important riders on to that. [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm not sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a 2-core POWER4, AIUI [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX makes a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for day-to-day use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be much use on the desktop today. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 16:44:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709031412s2a48517fy26482a6e63253cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9050.37820.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason T wrote: > On 9/3/07, Chris M wrote: > > There are 1 of these on eBay: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 > > I want! > > Oh, it's in Oklahoma. It's got to weight >150lbs, > no? Before I forget, and as I'm sure most already know, someone's been trying to give away a 5360 on marketplace.vintage.org for sometime. I don't feel like logging in, so I can't "see everything", so I don't know if it's still available, but I imagine it would be. I bet Sridhar already has one, so you won't have to fight him for it LOL LOL LOL. Can't remember where it was located, I want to say Connecticut, but I could very well be wrong. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 16:45:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479059.42208.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> so what sort of development tools are available for these? Uh, FLAYX I made up, so don't go looking for it LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 3 16:47:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:47:31 -0600 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <293911.27835.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <293911.27835.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DC80F3.8080308@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > I just had a shipment (SoCal > NE PA). 150 lbs., > about 90$. FedEx. BE WARNED. They routinely, > gratuitously, by necessity it seems beat the living > hell out of everything. You NEED to have the person > pack it well. Make that VERY WELL. I can pack > something that could withstand an H-bomb. Others > typically don't show the care :(. > Granted this wasn't an old puter, but a piece of cast > iron that arguably was worth 10x what I payed for it > (300$). I was prepared for the worst, though it just > might not turn out so bad. You gotta learn as you > live. Well what can it be that is 150 lbs, and worth $3K. Well it can't be a classic bath-tub ( the best kind ). You could always ship by Greyhound. Ben alias Woodelf. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 16:53:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <46DC80F3.8080308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <315146.83746.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Well what can it be that is 150 lbs, and worth $3K. > Well it can't be a classic bath-tub ( the best kind > ). > You could always ship by Greyhound. > Ben alias Woodelf. Namely a German made metal lathe. Missing a few parts hehe. But any competent machinist would tell you the most important part is the bed anyway. I would have loved to ship my keester out there. But truthfully I probably wouldn't need a return ticket. Not quite ready for that yet though. Maybe in a year+ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From grant at stockly.com Mon Sep 3 15:30:54 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:30:54 -0800 Subject: Calling Kurt Klemm Message-ID: <0JNT00KXMDUJ2T60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Sorry about the personal message here but I've exhausted the means to contact him. If you get this please try to send me a message on my website: http://www.stockly.com/forums/index.php I can't seem to send you e-mail! Grant From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 18:40:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:40:34 -0700 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <46DC80F3.8080308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <293911.27835.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <46DC80F3.8080308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DC3902.18218.11298B39@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2007 at 15:47, woodelf wrote: > Well what can it be that is 150 lbs, and worth $3K. > Well it can't be a classic bath-tub ( the best kind ). > You could always ship by Greyhound. > Ben alias Woodelf. I've had good results with Amtrak Express for medium-to-large packages; Greyhound isn't bad either. Cheers, Chuck From hugh at blemings.org Mon Sep 3 18:50:10 2007 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:50:10 +1000 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) Message-ID: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> Hi, Meant to include this in my earlier post - Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices, Memories etc. Date range late 70's to early '90s. If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling please let me know. My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the various archives. Thanks! Cheers, Hugh From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 3 18:53:20 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 19:53:20 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709031953.20505.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 03 September 2007 17:20, Liam Proven wrote: > > POWER is an inherently interesting processor architecture (especially > > the 6-chip versions), and the machines are built like a tank - even the > > models with a plastic case are practically bulletproof. POWER is > > amazingly zippy for the relative clock speed, especially for floating > > point ops... > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) Are those on-topic in here? I just acquired one not too long ago... Dunno what I'm gonna do with it yet, I've never had anything to do with those machines. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 17:56:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:56:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D931E7.7050506@machineroom.info> from "James" at Sep 1, 7 10:33:27 am Message-ID: > >> Whitechaple Computer Works (MG1 32016-based workstation, Hitec > >> MIPS-based workstations) > > > > Ah, that's the one I was trying to remember. I know someone who has > > one, or perhaps two. Indeed you do -- me. I have a complete MG1 (with original mouse, monitor, etc, it even has the ISA slot backplane in it). I also have a Hitec, but not in the original case. The Hitecs have a motherboard that's the same form factor as a PC/ZT motherboard (nad which use a PC/AT PSU). The board contains the disk controllers (floppy, SCSI, ST412), serial ports, keyboard interfcace, etc. There are 8 slots at the normal spacing. 3 ISA slots, and 5 DIN41612s. The latter take the processor card, video card, and RAM cards. I have a complete machine, and many spare boards, but it's in a PC tower case. > > > > And: > > (from Jim Austins collection) : Elliot & Ferranti I thought we were excluding larger machines. > > Psion (organiser etc.) > > Whitecross (WX9xxx & later). Massively parallel transputer (and later > x86) SQL machines. Doesn't do much without a Sun frontend but the > machine itself was designed & manufactured in the UK. Sadly, the > transputers it uses are ST rather than Inmos. I have one as a pet :-) What's the difference? > > Flite (68K training systems). Still going too! SOmewhere I even have their 68000 cross assembler ROM for the BBC micro... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 18:20:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:20:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188785440.46db6d20ebe25@www.jblaser.org> from "J Blaser" at Sep 2, 7 08:10:40 pm Message-ID: > > I've got a H771-A (120V/60Hz) that's acting up on me. Part > of an old PDP-11/03 that I'm trying to get back on its feet. > As I've done with 4 or 5 other RX units in the past couple > of years, after cleaning it up and reforming the capacitors, > but before plugging everything together, I wanted to check > output voltages. I'm sure glad I did because this guy is > not normal! > > Where you usually see 24V, I'm getting 42V! And the so- > called 'Raw DC' which is normally around 10V is 17V. At IIRC, the 'raw DC' is unregulated, just rectified and smoothed from the transformer. As is the 24V line. Both are about 1.7* what they should be. It's gettign late, so I'll not find the prints tonight. But IIRC, the transformer in this supply is a ferroresonant one, and that's what stabilises the 'raw' and 24V lines. What happens if the capacitor hung off that is defective? > least the +/-5V lines are more or less correct at +5.1V and > -5.3V, respectively. > > I need some help here. I've checked the printset on this, > and frankly, this analog stuff is so much voodoo (to me). > I get lost pretty quickly unless the circuit is simple, > say, like a flashlight. Anyway, I've checked a number of > voltages and voltage drops at various places[1] that I > thought might lead me to something, but I can't say that > I'm any wiser now. I'm sure this is fixable, even by me, > IF I can locate out the faulty component(s). I suspect the last part is very ture. Actually replacing the faulty part is the easy bit :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 18:25:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:25:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Sep 3, 7 03:21:50 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > Tangerine (the Microtan) > > >.... > > Oric (offshoot of Tangerine, made Oric-1 and Atmos) > > I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from > Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? IIRC, the Tiger was also a Tangerine design (although made by HH electronics). > > Memotech > > Originally a maker of add-ons for the ZX-81, RAM packs etc. Great machines > IMHO. I was given one recently. The mechancial design in beautiful, the case is mafe from 2 anodised aluminium extrusions and 2 end plates. To get inside you remove one screw at each side and the top extrusion (carrying the keyboard) hinges up. If you want to go further, unplug the keyboard cable, remove the end plate at one end (2 more screws), then slide the extrusions apart. Is the manaul for these machines on the web anywhere? I remmeber seeing it on paper many years ago, and IIRC it contained not only a schematic, but also the PAL equations for the 14L4 on the logic board. -tony From paul at pgdeng.co.uk Mon Sep 3 17:33:26 2007 From: paul at pgdeng.co.uk (paul drescher) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 23:33:26 +0100 Subject: trs 80 model 16B Message-ID: <46DC8BB6.5050402@pgdeng.co.uk> Is there anyone who can help me? I am needing an 8" boot disc of suitable software, to breathe life into my 16B monster! I can't believe there is no 8" disk's available? I have made a suitable cable to connect a 5,25 drive, so any suitable software will do, please contact me if you think you can help. regards paul I use BullGuard Spamfilter to keep my inbox clean. It is completely free: www.bullguard.com/freespamfilter From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Sep 3 18:59:34 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> Message-ID: <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Meant to include this in my earlier post - > Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of > old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National > Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, > ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices, Memories etc. > Date range late 70's to early '90s. Interesting you mention that now. I just today found I have 22 tubes of assorted DIPs. 16 of them I've been able to find enough info to use, if I have a need for them - but there are six more I haven't. I was going to write here and ask if anyone knows where to find specs (including pinouts) for these - I spent some time with google, and even checked bitsavers.org and vt100.net (neither of which seems to have that kind of info - perhaps I missed something?). Specifically, what I have that's a mystery (/ represents a line break): MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 MC14034B / CP QQ8318 > If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling > please let me know. I'd like to snag them myself, but I can't help suspecting it would cost an unpleasant amount to get them clear around the globe. > My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the > various archives. Perhaps, but I cahn't help wondering where. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 3 19:17:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:17:49 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> Message-ID: <46DCA42D.8070907@jetnet.ab.ca> Hugh Blemings wrote: > Hi, > > Meant to include this in my earlier post - > > Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices, Memories etc. Date range late 70's to early '90s. > > If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling please let me know. > > My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the various archives. Well at 1:13 am I tend not to want to wait for the puter to warm up and connect to find the pin out of a 7400 online from umm yawn where was that site again ... not get your **** bigger . You can find many modern chips but it take a bit a digging to find older chip. Often the database sites you pay to view. > Thanks! > > Cheers, > Hugh Ben alias Woodelf PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 3 19:31:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:31:54 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DCA77A.4090902@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > Perhaps, but I cahn't help wondering where. Or the same data sheet from a NOW off-line site? The PDF's do add up if you need more than a few parts. What I find more useful is the PDF'ed old magizines and other material out of print long before I was born. Ben alias woodelf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 3 19:35:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:35:20 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DCA848.4070504@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > Specifically, what I have that's a mystery (/ represents a line break): > > CY7C409A-25PC cascadable 64 x 8/9 fifo. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > . > From vrs at msn.com Mon Sep 3 19:34:57 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:34:57 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <075101c7ee8b$6c0b6760$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "der Mouse": > Specifically, what I have that's a mystery (/ represents a line break): > > MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 > CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 > GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 > MC14034B / CP QQ8318 I found data sheets for three of those and a description of the fourth at: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/ Vince From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 20:28:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:28:42 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DCA848.4070504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org>, <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <46DCA848.4070504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DC525A.26168.118C8A94@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2007 at 19:59, der Mouse wrote: > MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 > CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 > GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 > MC14034B / CP QQ8318 In no particular order, the MC14304B is a 4000-series CMOS quad "NOR" latch. The MCM2016 is a generic 2Kx8 SRAM, the CY7C409A is a 64x9 FIFO, the GAL16V8A is a CMOS PLD (64x32 arry, registered outputs). The others are a bit of a mystery to me. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 3 20:53:45 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:53:45 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the real > > POWER processors. > > Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important riders > on to that. > > [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm not > sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a 2-core > POWER4, AIUI As I've read, the 601 is more POWER than the rest of the PPC chips. Still much slower and dumbed down than the proper POWER (non-PC) versions. And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. I guess a dual-core G5 is close to a POWER4, but it's still lacking some things, like cache. And, the G5 has VMX/Altivec, which the POWER4 doesn't. Mostly, the POWER4 was designed to be a enterprise server grade CPU, and the G5 is designed to be a consumer-grade CPU. There's a lot of trade-offs that they made when designing one vs the other. I guess that a POWER3 is technically also a "PowerPC 630", but no resemblance to the PPC60x series of chips. The POWER5 and POWER6 are quite a bit more interesting than any PowerPC chip. > [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on > PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX makes > a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for day-to-day > use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a > server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be > much use on the desktop today. Interesting depends on what you mean by it. POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 3 20:57:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:57:29 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709032157.29273.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a > server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be > much use on the desktop today. I guess I should add, that there are 10-year old RS/6000s (43P models) that run current versions of AIX (5.3), and can run most any OSS you'd want to throw at them. I spend most of my time using konsole (kde tabbed xterm), kmail (IMAP client) and firefox. Beyond that, everything else is mostly just another X-windows or console application. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 22:18:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 23:18:58 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more interesting > to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, I'm "one of those > people" who runs Linux on their work-provided PowerMac G5. I just > can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k for a proper POWER5 > workstation from IBM. ;) The POWER5+ workstation on my desk at work costs (retail) a touch more than half that. It's fast, too. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 22:20:10 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 23:20:10 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032157.29273.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032157.29273.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DCCEEA.9010800@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a >> server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be >> much use on the desktop today. > > I guess I should add, that there are 10-year old RS/6000s (43P models) > that run current versions of AIX (5.3), and can run most any OSS you'd > want to throw at them. Hell, we have designers using recent versions of CATIA on 10-year-old RS/6000s. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 3 22:24:26 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:24:26 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 September 2007 23:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more > > interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, > > I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided > > PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k > > for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) > > The POWER5+ workstation on my desk at work costs (retail) a touch > more than half that. It's fast, too. The Intellistation POWER 285? IBM Web Price for the lowest end model is $8,099: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/intellistation/power/hardware/285/browse.html If you want a decent dual-core model, list price is $14.074. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 3 23:27:32 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 05:27:32 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com><20070902213404.N44792@shell.lmi.net> <46DBAF16.6020303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <001a01c7eeab$e9be0030$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > That's "Orac" :-) And who built "Orac"? :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 3 23:29:08 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 05:29:08 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <002701c7eeac$22c6d4b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I think the Blakes 7 computer may have been called ZEN. >ORAC on Blakes 7 was a device that could predict the future. ZEN was the mainframe, Orac was their laptop.... 8-) TTFN - Pete. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 23:51:31 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:51:31 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DCE453.1030009@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 September 2007 23:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more >>> interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, >>> I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided >>> PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k >>> for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) >> The POWER5+ workstation on my desk at work costs (retail) a touch >> more than half that. It's fast, too. > > The Intellistation POWER 285? > > IBM Web Price for the lowest end model is $8,099: > http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/intellistation/power/hardware/285/browse.html > > If you want a decent dual-core model, list price is $14.074. System p5-520 + GXT6500P. Peace... Sridhar From bear at typewritten.org Tue Sep 4 00:10:15 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:10:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99E94131-6674-4C1E-B220-72C612BD7A5B@typewritten.org> On Sep 3, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Chris M wrote: > the 5364 looks cool. Needs a 5170 - no more, no less - > for the front end. Even looks like an AT. I understand this to be the conventional wisdom on the 5364, but the conventional wisdom is wrong in this case. I have personally used both an original 16k 5150 and a 5170 as a front end to my 5364. I have been in contact with a gentleman who uses a PS/2 8530. The requirements are strict, but not THAT strict. ok bear From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Sep 4 00:41:14 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:41:14 -0500 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DCEFFA.1080104@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 September 2007 23:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more >>> interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, >>> I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided >>> PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k >>> for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) >> The POWER5+ workstation on my desk at work costs (retail) a touch >> more than half that. It's fast, too. > > The Intellistation POWER 285? > > IBM Web Price for the lowest end model is $8,099: > http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/intellistation/power/hardware/285/browse.html > > If you want a decent dual-core model, list price is $14.074. Yebbut, if you don't need the CATIA-grade graphics, a p5-52x with very nearly the same specs as the IntelliStation can be had for under $5K. Doc From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 3 21:55:58 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 03:55:58 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. Two security guys dragging me out of the building. The visitors would love that!! Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 03 September 2007 18:14 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. Rod Smallwood wrote: [BP stuff] > Well that's interesting.... > How much of it will be running? Well the aim is for as much as possible; I suspect we can manage 95% for the machines actually set up on display, but then there'll probably be other things on shelves or incomplete so that people can see their internals etc. Not 95% at once, of course - but 95% capable of running whenever the relevant people who know how to operate and look after them are on site :-) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 4 02:48:15 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:48:15 +0200 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Chris M wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the first machine to > run AIX the IBM/RT's? Googling... It was called AIX, but it doesn't have much in common with the later AIX. The RT-AIX was a more or less straight port of some 4BSD to the RT. The later AIX is an IBM reimplementation of UNIX. (AFAIK) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 04:12:22 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 03:12:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> > IIRC, the 'raw DC' is unregulated, just rectified and smoothed from the > transformer. As is the 24V line. Both are about 1.7* what they should be. That's the strange thing to me. The two secondaries from the transformer (one for the 24V line, and the other for the 10V line [which sources the regulated 5V output]) are 'proper' at 27.8V and 11.2V, respectively. What I don't understand is how a 24V line can suddenly produce 42V! It's like something is 'pumping' the circuit, and I admit I have never studied how such things work. The funny thing is that the 5V regulation is working, even with 17V input instead of 10V. > It's gettign late, so I'll not find the prints tonight. But IIRC, the > transformer in this supply is a ferroresonant one, and that's what > stabilises the 'raw' and 24V lines. What happens if the capacitor hung > off that is defective? Fair point, but can a faulty capacitor 'pump' up the voltage like I'm seeing? > I suspect the last part is very ture. Actually replacing the faulty part > is the easy bit :-) Hey, thanks for your confidence! :-) I can use a little outside support! ;-) Let me add that this RX01 is the second of two RX01 units in this system. When I went through the first one a week ago, it checked out fine...that is I saw 25V/10.2v on the outputs, without a load. And you're not going to like this :-), but for an electronics novice, tonight I followed my instinct and swapped the regulator PCBs between units. Yup, the 'good' system's PCB now is putting out 42V and 17V! So, it's not the regulation circuit, I guess, or any component on the two system's PCBs. But after swapping the PS regulator PCBs, all that's left are the transformer (which appears to be putting out 'expected' voltages), a 660V AC capacitor thingy (which I obviously don't understand...is it part of the ferrroresonance?) that only connects back to the transformer itself, and the two smoothing caps (one for the 24V line and one for the 10V line). Is it possible that one/both caps are 'pumping' the circuit? I'm just too novice to know. Another suggestion I received privately hints that putting a dummy load on the PS might bring it into line, and that I will try. I have access to an oscilloscope, and will put it on the thing, too, to see if I can discover anything strange. Thanks, Jared From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 05:43:24 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:43:24 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> On 04/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > > > > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the real > > > POWER processors. > > > > Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important riders > > on to that. > > > > [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm not > > sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a 2-core > > POWER4, AIUI > > As I've read, the 601 is more POWER than the rest of the PPC chips. > Still much slower and dumbed down than the proper POWER (non-PC) > versions. Can you give some supporting evidence for that assertion? I've been following the development of POWER and PowerPC since their first announcements, and as far as I can see, the process has been one of gradual convergence. The PPC601 was a single-chip implementation of what was still a processor /chipset/ on the IBM side - IIRC, I think the contemporary IBM processor was spread over 5 chips or something. Since the PPC601, the PPC has gained more power, more integration, more cache, better branch prediction, more logic units and so on. The POWER chipset was shrunk onto a chip, then followed a similar evolution. > And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but is a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs such as OS/400 or zOS. > I guess a > dual-core G5 is close to a POWER4, but it's still lacking some things, > like cache. (?) The 970 has onboard primary and secondary cache. In the first model, 64KB of direct-mapped L1 instruction cache and 32KB of L1 data cache, plus 512KB of 2-way associative L2 cache. > And, the G5 has VMX/Altivec, which the POWER4 doesn't. > Mostly, the POWER4 was designed to be a enterprise server grade CPU, > and the G5 is designed to be a consumer-grade CPU. There's a lot of > trade-offs that they made when designing one vs the other. You might find it instructive to read these articles: http://www.arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/ppc970.ars http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q1/ppc970/ppc970-0.html They discuss the tradeoffs between POWER4 and PPC970 in some detail. The PPC is and always has been a desktop processor for the retail consumer market; its rivals were the Athlon64 and Pentium 4D. As such it's tuned towards different demands than the POWER4, which is aimed for expensive, non-cost-sensitive IBM servers, minis and mainframes - not that there's a lot of difference between those 3 categories today. To copy the 1st article I link's summary of the differences: "In sum, the 970 is made to be faster, cheaper, and significantly less reliable than the Power4." > I guess that a POWER3 is technically also a "PowerPC 630", but no > resemblance to the PPC60x series of chips. So PPC 60x is different to PPC63x? No, *really?* :?) > The POWER5 and POWER6 are quite a bit more interesting than any PowerPC > chip. Yes, arguably, but now Apple has abandoned the PPC, it's dead in the water as far as the desktop is concerned, so it won't really evolve any further. (Which I think is a great shame.) On the other hand, in the embedded market, there are fascinating chips like PA Semi's PWRficient line. http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5907281.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/pasemi_power/print.html These will carry the torch forward for PPC, but we won't find them in any affordable desktop machines. > > [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on > > PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX makes > > a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for day-to-day > > use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a > > server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be > > much use on the desktop today. > > Interesting depends on what you mean by it. Well, of course, but I went on to define what I meant in the same sentence on the same line. Desktop-relevant stuff that I can actually use. I'm reading and writing this on a web page; for the 2007 Web, I need a modern CSS2-capable browser, Flash, Javascript, Java, RealPlayer, QuickTime and Windows Media support. OS X delivers those; even PowerPC Linux, probably the most-widely-supported desktop Unix environment on PPC, does not. > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more interesting > to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, I'm "one of those > people" who runs Linux on their work-provided PowerMac G5. I just > can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k for a proper POWER5 > workstation from IBM. ;) A snag! I find these to be academically interesting OSs, ones I'd like to work with and know more about, but neither I nor my small-business clients have any direct personal or professional use or need for them. Unlike a Mac. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 4 07:26:16 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 07:26:16 -0500 Subject: trs 80 model 16B In-Reply-To: <46DC8BB6.5050402@pgdeng.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709041130.l84BUPvU012870@hosting.monisys.ca> > Is there anyone who can help me? I am needing an 8" boot disc of > suitable software, to breathe life into my 16B monster! I can't > believe there is no 8" disk's available? I have made a > suitable cable to connect a 5,25 drive, so any suitable software will > do, please contact me if you think you can help. regards paul Kelly Leavitt has a set of 16B/6000 Xenix disk images posted at: www.catcorner.org/Tandy www.catcorner.org/Xenix If you dig up a copy of TRSDOS16 (TRSDOS ported to the 68k) I'd love to have an copy of the image for my archive. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Sep 4 08:13:03 2007 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:13:03 -0400 Subject: trs 80 model 16B Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B14E2@MEOW.catcorner.org> >> Is there anyone who can help me? I am needing an 8" boot disc of >> suitable software, to breathe life into my 16B monster! I can't >> believe there is no 8" disk's available? I have made a >> suitable cable to connect a 5,25 drive, so any suitable software will >> do, please contact me if you think you can help. regards paul > > Kelly Leavitt has a set of 16B/6000 Xenix disk images posted at: > www.catcorner.org/Tandy > www.catcorner.org/Xenix > > If you dig up a copy of TRSDOS16 (TRSDOS ported to the 68k) I'd love > to have an copy of the image for my archive. > > Dave Although pretty slow at doing so, I have most of the operating systems that ran on this series of computers either archived in imagedisk format, or ready to be made so. I have TRS-DOS 16, II, and a lot of different CP/M versions that I can image. And Dave, you and anyone else doing so, are welcome to either link or make a copy of my images available for download in your archives. A little acknowledgement would be nice, but not required. Kelly From james at machineroom.info Tue Sep 4 03:21:19 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:21:19 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DD157F.2080601@machineroom.info> >> (from Jim Austins collection) : Elliot & Ferranti > > I thought we were excluding larger machines. Ah, missed that bit... Ferranti did seem like an obvious miss :-) >> >> Whitecross (WX9xxx & later). Massively parallel transputer (and later >> x86) SQL machines. Doesn't do much without a Sun frontend but the >> machine itself was designed & manufactured in the UK. Sadly, the >> transputers it uses are ST rather than Inmos. I have one as a pet :-) > > What's the difference? French vs. English. It'd be nice if the chips were british too whilst we're being all patriotic From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 4 09:33:53 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:33:53 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 04 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > On 04/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > > > On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > > > > > > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the > > > > real POWER processors. > > > > > > Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important > > > riders on to that. > > > > > > [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm > > > not sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a > > > 2-core POWER4, AIUI > > > > As I've read, the 601 is more POWER than the rest of the PPC chips. > > Still much slower and dumbed down than the proper POWER (non-PC) > > versions. > > Can you give some supporting evidence for that assertion? I've been > following the development of POWER and PowerPC since their first > announcements, and as far as I can see, the process has been one of > gradual convergence. The PPC601 was a single-chip implementation of > what was still a processor /chipset/ on the IBM side - IIRC, I think > the contemporary IBM processor was spread over 5 chips or something. I don't feel like looking this up. Go look at SPECfp numbers for PPC and POWER chips of the same era, for a starting point. There's also a number of POWER architecture descriptions floating around the internet which detail differences. > > And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. > > I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. > I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; > given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the > POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did > not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. > PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but > is a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. The POWER4 is dual core, the original G5 is single core. The newest G5 is dual core. IBM didn't make ANY quad-core processors until the POWER5+. > I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER > can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs > such as OS/400 or zOS. The POWER chips have a bunch of hypervisor goo, and many, many MBs of L3 cache on the multicore versions. > > I guess a > > dual-core G5 is close to a POWER4, but it's still lacking some > > things, like cache. > > (?) The 970 has onboard primary and secondary cache. In the first > model, 64KB of direct-mapped L1 instruction cache and 32KB of L1 data > cache, plus 512KB of 2-way associative L2 cache. I wasn't say it was without *any* cache. It just has a lot less than POWER4. No one builds modern processors without ANY cache, that'd just be silly. > > And, the G5 has VMX/Altivec, which the POWER4 doesn't. > > Mostly, the POWER4 was designed to be a enterprise server grade > > CPU, and the G5 is designed to be a consumer-grade CPU. There's a > > lot of trade-offs that they made when designing one vs the other. > > They discuss the tradeoffs between POWER4 and PPC970 in some detail. > The PPC is and always has been a desktop processor for the retail > consumer market; its rivals were the Athlon64 and Pentium 4D. As such > it's tuned towards different demands than the POWER4, which is aimed > for expensive, non-cost-sensitive IBM servers, minis and mainframes - > not that there's a lot of difference between those 3 categories > today. > > To copy the 1st article I link's summary of the differences: "In sum, > the 970 is made to be faster, cheaper, and significantly less > reliable than the Power4." Why should I read those? That was the exact point I was trying to make. > > The POWER5 and POWER6 are quite a bit more interesting than any > > PowerPC chip. > > Yes, arguably, but now Apple has abandoned the PPC, it's dead in the > water as far as the desktop is concerned, so it won't really evolve > any further. (Which I think is a great shame.) POWER5 and POWER6 have evolved quite a bit from where POWER4 was. IBM made a lot more money selling POWER processors, systems, and consulting to go with it, than they ever did with selling PPC chips to apple. IBM was dragging their feet with PPC features on the G5 (and whatever would have been G6), which is why Apple abandoned them; if IBM was making enough money from Apple on their G5s, I'm sure that they would have payed more attention to what Apple wanted (like low-power noteboot CPUs). > On the other hand, in the embedded market, there are fascinating > chips like PA Semi's PWRficient line. > > http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5907281.html > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/pasemi_power/print.html > > These will carry the torch forward for PPC, but we won't find them in > any affordable desktop machines. Depends on what you mean by "affordable". Easily more affordable than an inflation-adjusted IBM 5150 or similar. > > > [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on > > > PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX > > > makes a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for > > > day-to-day use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 > > > except as a server - as a workstation running Motif or something, > > > it wouldn't be much use on the desktop today. > > > > Interesting depends on what you mean by it. > > Well, of course, but I went on to define what I meant in the same > sentence on the same line. Desktop-relevant stuff that I can actually > use. I'm reading and writing this on a web page; for the 2007 Web, I > need a modern CSS2-capable browser, Flash, Javascript, Java, > RealPlayer, QuickTime and Windows Media support. OS X delivers those; > even PowerPC Linux, probably the most-widely-supported desktop Unix > environment on PPC, does not. Whether or not you need Flash is a matter of debate... but a lot of that can be handled by firefox, IBM's PPC JREs, and mplayer/xine. Who needs three separate media players, when you can use one of two OSS players, and play almost anything. I hear that the OSS flash player is even very close to being able to play youtube/google flash videos. But, alas, this still doesn't make a platform intersting to me. > > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more > > interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, > > I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided > > PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k > > for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) > > A snag! > > I find these to be academically interesting OSs, ones I'd like to > work with and know more about, but neither I nor my small-business > clients have any direct personal or professional use or need for > them. Unlike a Mac. Who said personal/professional use? I though that people collected computers because they were "interesting", not just because they were useful. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bear at typewritten.org Tue Sep 4 10:26:59 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:26:59 -0700 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <56E6967D-310B-4D09-98BC-F68090527F2B@typewritten.org> On Sep 4, 2007, at 12:48 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > It was called AIX, but it doesn't have much in common with the later > AIX. The RT-AIX was a more or less straight port of some 4BSD to > the RT. > The later AIX is an IBM reimplementation of UNIX. (AFAIK) You're thinking of AOS (Academic OS). AIX was from the earliest days derived from Interactive's IN/ix, which IBM claims was "the first commercial UNIX." ok bear From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 10:41:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:41:15 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> On Sep 4, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. > > I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. > I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; > given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the > POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did > not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. > PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but is > a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. The PPC970 is a dual-core processor? The one I'm typing this on certainly doesn't seem to be. > I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER > can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs such > as OS/400 or zOS. z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. Am I just blind today or something? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 4 10:58:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:58:18 -0600 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:04:00 -0400. <46DC68B0.4050309@netscape.net> Message-ID: In article <46DC68B0.4050309 at netscape.net>, scheefj at netscape.net writes: > * Dehumidification is probably more important to the collection than > heating or cooling. I live in a desert. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 11:13:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:13:44 -0400 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: <46DC68B0.4050309@netscape.net> References: <46DC68B0.4050309@netscape.net> Message-ID: On 9/3/07, scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > Richard, > > Some thoughts: > > * Cooling requirements can be adjusted based on how many machines > are running at the same time and for how long. Sure. > * Winter cooling needs may be nill, or even undesireable. I live in Central Ohio. Winter temps range from a typical low of -5F (it gets lower, but not every winter, and not for long), to a typical high around +20F, but we have had a number of "Green Christmases" over the years, and do exceed +60F in December and January on occasion. When working for employers with tons of AC cooling multi-hundred square-foot machine rooms, I have had to call for AC repair in the winter. We got the strangest reactions from the HVAC contractors, but we really did need to have our AC repaired. > * Dehumidification is probably more important to the collection than > heating or cooling. In Ohio, dehumidification is essential in summer, whereas humidification is frequently warranted in the winter, at least above ground. In my area, moisture in basements isn't normally too hard to achieve. In my area, natural gas is the most ordinary heating fuel. For those that live in areas where electric heat is common, an in-house machine room will add heat to the house "for free". Summertime, though, is a different matter. I have aspirations of building a new structure next to my 30'x50' quonset hut. I already have several hundred square feet of steel-backed raised tiles and all the pegs. Money, naturally, is the factor that's holding me back. At this point, my intention is to plan for a 40'x60' structure with straight walls, giving me substantially more usable space over what I have now. Depending on how well insulated the place would end up, from my prior experience in machine rooms, I'd say that 5 tons of AC wouldn't be oversized, and might be a bit small. Expensive to run, though, especially in July and August. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 4 11:15:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:15:10 -0600 Subject: ebay: ANSI Electron Tubes, Bases, Capsn and Terminals Message-ID: Ebay # 320152907541 Here we have ANSI American National Standards, ANSI for electron tubes and related items. Including: 1. C60.1-1964 (UDC 621.385.1; 621.3.032), EIA RS-209-A. Dimensional Characteristics of Electron Tubes, Bases, Caps, and Terminals (including Gauges). 3 sections: 51, 112 and 48 pages. **Cover edges are worn on this one. 2. C60.6-1959 (UDC 621.3.032.2:621.317.335) EIA RS-191-A. Direct Interelectrode Capacitances, 16 pages. 3. C60.8-1963 (UDC 621.3.032.2:621.3.011.4) EIA RS-263. Interelement Capacitance for Electron Tubes. 2 page. 4. C60.9-1964 (UDC 621.385.13.001.3) 62 IRE 7.52. Definitions of Terms for Electron Tubes, 8 pages. 5. C60.4-1950 (UDS 003.62:621.3.032.71) JETEC JO-C3, Designation System for Metal Electron Tub Shells, 2 page. ***NOTE: These are currently in a ANSI binder - please advise if binder is NOT desired so we can adjust the shipping rate. Previously a library copy. Lightly read, virtually no page creasing, no rips or tears found. Jacket/cover has light edge and corner wear. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 11:32:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <46DC3902.18218.11298B39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <268558.1778.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Sep 2007 at 15:47, woodelf wrote: > > > Well what can it be that is 150 lbs, and worth > $3K. > > Well it can't be a classic bath-tub ( the best > kind ). > > You could always ship by Greyhound. > > Ben alias Woodelf. > > I've had good results with Amtrak Express for > medium-to-large > packages; Greyhound isn't bad either. I didn't realize they shipped large packages/crates. AAMOF, I wanted to buy something (an old Rivett lathe) in the Chicago area over a year ago, and Greyhound was telling me I couldn't even put the thing in the cargo area. I guess your mileage can vary depending on which idiot you get on the other end of the tin can. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 11:37:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trs 80 model 16B In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B14E2@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <404396.67703.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kelly Leavitt wrote: > Although pretty slow at doing so, I have most of the > operating systems that ran on this series of > computers either archived in imagedisk format, or > ready to be made so. I'll say. Slow indeed. Here I am waiting 4+ months for even a reply to the last e-mail I sent. Are you on dial-up hoser LOL LOL. Crikeys. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 12:11:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) Message-ID: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> I suppose I could just drive and save myself the headaches. And looking at some of these websites and just trying to find a freaking schedule, aside from the crap about scheduled getaways and WHATEVER THE FRIG, can someone tell me (who's done it) if it's practical to get to Boston from NYC by train? Amtrak is just to expensive (~120$ round trip). I doubt sincerely that anyone on this list would have done this, so I guess I'll be driving. I hear Massachusetts people have lost the ability (as if they ever had it) to drive... Metro north only goes as far as Waterbury, CT, so I guess you get off there and start thumbing??? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Sep 4 12:31:30 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:31:30 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) Message-ID: <46DD5E3302000037000107AA@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Chuck wrote: > On 3 Sep 2007 at 19:59, der Mouse wrote: >> MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 >> CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 >> GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 >> MC14034B / CP QQ8318 > In no particular order, the MC14304B is a 4000-series CMOS quad "NOR" > latch. The MCM2016 is a generic 2Kx8 SRAM, the CY7C409A is a 64x9 > FIFO, > the GAL16V8A is a CMOS PLD (64x32 arry, registered outputs). > The others are a bit of a mystery to me. "The others" are speed ranges (15ns) and date codes from the 80's and 90's :-). Tim. From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 4 13:05:45 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43827.65.126.154.6.1188929145.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>> can someone tell me (who's done it) if it's practical to get to Boston from NYC by train? Amtrak is just to expensive (~120$ round trip). I've taken the train between Boston and NYC a zillion times. Is it "practical"...? Yes, of course. Train technology became practical many, many, many years ago. It's also quicker than driving and you can relax, plug in a laptop, eat, pee, or do whatever you like. It's quite a nice trip actually. Being pricey doesn't make it impractical. Just makes you cheap. However it does cost less if you travel at an off-peak time and use a student or AAA discount. Nor is the drive so bad. Don't take 95 (the Bronx is a terrible ride); instead take Tappan Zee, to the Westchester parkways, to 91, to 84, to 90 (Mass Pike) which takes you right to Cambridge. Four hours. Or take a bus. Much cheaper that way. From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Sep 4 13:05:15 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:05:15 -0400 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DD9E5B.8080206@radiorobots.com> Chris M wrote: > I suppose I could just drive and save myself the >headaches. And looking at some of these websites and >just trying to find a freaking schedule, aside from >the crap about scheduled getaways and WHATEVER THE >FRIG, can someone tell me (who's done it) if it's >practical to get to Boston from NYC by train? Amtrak >is just to expensive (~120$ round trip). I doubt >sincerely that anyone on this list would have done >this, so I guess I'll be driving. I hear Massachusetts >people have lost the ability (as if they ever had it) >to drive... > Metro north only goes as far as Waterbury, CT, so I >guess you get off there and start thumbing??? > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search >that gives answers, not web links. >http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > Look up "Fung Wah Bus". Steve From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 13:12:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <43827.65.126.154.6.1188929145.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <884208.81482.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > Being pricey doesn't make it impractical. Just > makes you cheap. Right. Coming from the person who wants to be driven across the fruited plain to VCF whatever, but for some strange reason using his vehicle in never an option. > Nor is the drive so bad. Don't take 95 (the Bronx > is a terrible ride); > instead take Tappan Zee, to the Westchester > parkways, to 91, to 84, to 90 > (Mass Pike) which takes you right to Cambridge. > Four hours. I prefer the GW/95. The ride across Connecticut on 84 is boring as all get out. There are of course many places to pull over and pee though. > Or take a bus. Much cheaper that way. You ought to know. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 13:33:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:33:24 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DD5E3302000037000107AA@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <46DD5E3302000037000107AA@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <46DD4284.142.1536AF0E@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 13:31, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Chuck wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2007 at 19:59, der Mouse wrote: > >> MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 > >> CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 > >> GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 > >> MC14034B / CP QQ8318 > "The others" are speed ranges (15ns) and date codes > from the 80's and 90's :-). Yeah, I almost asked if the "15LP" wasn't part of the GAL16V8A number. Shows you how well I read. :( Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 14:18:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:18:59 -0700 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <46DD4D33.29061.15606C07@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 3:12, J Blaser wrote: > That's the strange thing to me. The two secondaries from the transformer (one > for the 24V line, and the other for the 10V line [which sources the regulated > 5V output]) are 'proper' at 27.8V and 11.2V, respectively. What I don't understand is how a 24V line can suddenly produce 42V! It's like something > is 'pumping' the circuit, and I admit I have never studied how such things work. Your measurement of the AC output (27.8 volts) is the RMS value of the voltage. In an unloaded rectifier-capacitor setup, the capacitor will charge to the *peak* value of the AC voltage. 42 vdc is "close enough". Notice that there's no regulator on the +24 PSU line--just a simple full-wave rectifier formed by D1 and D2 and C1 as a filter cap. There's a 10K bleeder on the line, but that accounts for only 2 ma of current draw at 24 volts on a supply that's rated for 1000 times that current. Put a load on it, say 12-24 ohms or even two automovtive lamps hooked in series and watch the voltage drop. Cheers, Chuck From ceby2 at csc.com Tue Sep 4 14:13:26 2007 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 20:13:26 +0100 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <200709040511.l845BdXU070823@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >> On 9/3/07, Chris M wrote: >> There are 1 of these on eBay: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 >> >> I want! >> >> Oh, it's in Oklahoma. It's got to weight >150lbs, >> no? FWIW I believe the 5362 is a sublime machine. The machine architecture and operating system are totally unlike the VMS/UNIX stuff many of us are used to. The mainframe derived, yet somehow unique approach is weird and wonderful... Even a familiarity with its descendant AS/400 won't quite give the same thing. Just for example, the system runs in 8 bit compartmentalised process spaces. The processors are 8 bit, but the machines often have as much as 2 MB on them. So they've taken the concept of memory windowing to something of an extreme. You can't program outside the 64 MB RAM bounds without invoking a separate program in another memory space. On the other hand, you have have as many applications running in either shared or single instance mode as you have memory for. As a second 'for instance', there are actually 2 CPUs. One is more or less equivalent to a channel controller in that it does all the IO. Truly, this is a machine worth having. There has never been an emulator written to reflect this architecture, so the only way you can really experience it is first hand. Add to that the library/directory/file data storage paradym, RPG/Basic/Cobol/Assembler as the programming languages, and an extensive menu/terminal IO driven interface and you have something as un-cshell like as I can imagine in a machine you are ever likely to actually possess. Compared to this a PDP/11 running RT-11 (or the like) feels a pimped version of CP/M. IMHOP: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... (I'm already ducking my head for fear of the flaming retribution of the DEC collectors on the list) --- Jason T wrote: > Before I forget, and as I'm sure most already know, > someone's been trying to give away a 5360 on > marketplace.vintage.org for sometime. I don't feel > like logging in, so I can't "see everything", so I > don't know if it's still available, but I imagine it > would be. > I bet Sridhar already has one, so you won't have to > fight him for it LOL LOL LOL. > Can't remember where it was located, I want to say > Connecticut, but I could very well be wrong. Now I just happen to be the poor sap with this thundering albatross. After making my pitch, and singing the platforms virtues let me ask, nee plead for a new keeper to step foward. Here is the revised 'scoop'. I haven't laid eyes on this system in at least 5 years. It's stored in a ground level lock-up (garage door style) outside Hartford. I will give a copy of the key to ANYONE who will relieve me of the storage rental. But that's ALL I can give you. Over the years I have indeed tried to give away this system to a number of well intentioned people. The problem is they always want me help transport it. Well my ability to 'help' has descended from the sublime to the ridiculous. I no longer living in the area (by which I mean I live 4000 miles away in England and can be of no imaginable assistance at all). Tempted? Drop me a mailing address and I will eagerly post you a copy of the padlock key. From there... over to you. Do your best to collect it (all of it, please). You MUST have (1) a forklift (2) a tail lift (3) a team of oxen (a fraternity pledge class would be ideal). The photo published on 'marketplace' is of the actual machine, just before I moved it. The 'vette' in the background should give you a clear idea of scale. Go on, I know you want to. Sridhar's no threat to your acquisition. He wisely turned me down so long ago I imagine he's forgotten about it altogether. Thanks, Colin Eby From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 14:38:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <101265.31388.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Colin Eby wrote: > Compared to this a PDP/11 running RT-11 (or the > like) feels a pimped > version of CP/M. LOL LOL @ pimping the puter. LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 14:46:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:46:29 -0600 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46DDB615.1090409@jetnet.ab.ca> Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? > That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. > Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. > Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. > Two security guys dragging me out of the building. > The visitors would love that!! > > Rod Well if you have Hard Drives Dancing to music from the *DISCO* panel lights, I am sure you would have I nice padded cell waiting for you as well. Ben Alias Woodelf PS.With Broadcast Band Valve Radio Blasting away the DISCO music from the CPU,I guess the security just don't like music. :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 15:12:50 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:12:50 -0400 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <101265.31388.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <101265.31388.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > LOL LOL @ pimping the puter. LOL Clearly an Oxford man. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 15:20:15 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <872526.77453.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > LOL LOL @ pimping the puter. LOL > > Clearly an Oxford man. And from what prestigious institution did you graduate? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 15:25:54 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:25:54 -0400 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <872526.77453.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <872526.77453.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > > LOL LOL @ pimping the puter. LOL > > > > Clearly an Oxford man. > > And from what prestigious institution did you > graduate? I think that joke went over your head. Look up "OED" on wiki. -- Will, MSOE BS CSE 1991 From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 15:30:04 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:30:04 -0500 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: References: <200709040511.l845BdXU070823@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730709041330j13062ba4h8388476adbdb61ed@mail.gmail.com> On 9/4/07, Colin Eby wrote: > > FWIW I believe the 5362 is a sublime machine. The machine architecture and And it went to a single bidder for $25! Had it been local, I would have gone for it. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 13:58:47 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? Message-ID: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Is there any interest in reverse engineering the MatchPoint PC card? I have one the cards and it appears fairly simple. It is mostly a small number of 74LSXX TTL chips and buffers. There are a small number of PALs on the board which pose the biggest challenge, I think. An open sourced version of the MatchPoint PC card design would be a powerful tool for those of us interested in making disk images of legacy CP/M hard and soft sector formats. Of course, it would imply some software being written as well to be useful outside of just the Uniform PC software which comes with it. Is reverse engineering the MatchPoint PC feasible and/or worthwhile? It might be slightly cheaper than a Catweasel but I doubt it would be as useful or flexible. I think the Catweasel ISA is probably a better deal but they can be hard to get. Are any of the original MicroSolutions MatchPoint PC designers still around? Does anyone own the MatchPoint PC IP or is it now officially "abandonware"? I would like to hear people's thoughts on the topic. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 20:05:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:05:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DCA42D.8070907@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 3, 7 06:17:49 pm Message-ID: > > Hugh Blemings wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Meant to include this in my earlier post - > > > > Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices , Memories etc. Date range late 70's to early '90s. > > > > If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling please let me know. > > > > My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the various archives. > > Well at 1:13 am I tend not to want to wait for the puter to warm up > and connect to find the pin out of a 7400 online from umm yawn where was that I, too, much prefer to have paper datasheets/databooks. It's a lot easier to flip thorugh a databook than try to find what you want on the web. Before the days of 'everything on the web' the semiconductor manufacturers used to send the databooks to companies, universities, etc. Whenerver a new one came in where I was working, I'd read through it, making a mental note of any chips that 'looked interesting'. There doesn't seem to be any way of doing that sort of thing on the websites :-( Anyway, the other reason for keeping old paper databooks is that the web changes. Far too often something I _knew_ was on a particular site is no longer there. Datasheets for chips often disappear when the chip is discontinued, which is not a lot of help when you're trying to fix something made 30 years ago. Yes, I know paper databooks can be lost, damaged, fall apart, etc, but that's not an argument for not _also_ keeping them, alongside web pages,etc. > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) So have I. Into my brain. I think I'll rememebr that one until my dying day. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 21:41:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 03:41:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> from "J Blaser" at Sep 4, 7 03:12:22 am Message-ID: > > > IIRC, the 'raw DC' is unregulated, just rectified and smoothed from the > > transformer. As is the 24V line. Both are about 1.7* what they should be. > > That's the strange thing to me. The two secondaries from the transformer (one > for the 24V line, and the other for the 10V line [which sources the regulated > 5V output]) are 'proper' at 27.8V and 11.2V, respectively. What I > don't understand is how a 24V line can suddenly produce 42V! It's like > something > is 'pumping' the circuit, and I admit I have never studied how such > things work. The normal voltage quoted for an AC signal (like the transformr secondary windings) is the RNS value. A simple rectifier/smoothing circuit will have an output approximately equal to the peak value of the AC input, which is sqrt(2) times as large. sqrt(2)+27.8 is about 40V. Hmmm... Are you sure those secondary voltages are reasoable? > > The funny thing is that the 5V regulation is working, even with 17V input > instead of 10V. The whole point of a regulator circuit is that the output voltage is independant of the input. Of course too high an input voltage will do damage, and for linear regulator circuits they run hotter as the input voltage increases. But I could well believe a reasonably designed regualtor would work correctly on double the input voltage, particularly on no load. > > > It's gettign late, so I'll not find the prints tonight. But IIRC, the > > transformer in this supply is a ferroresonant one, and that's what > > stabilises the 'raw' and 24V lines. What happens if the capacitor hung > > off that is defective? > > Fair point, but can a faulty capacitor 'pump' up the voltage like I'm seeing? The capacitor I am talking about is conencted to an extra winding on the trasnformer. It forms a resonant circuit with the inductance of this winding, normally tuned to the 3rd harmonic of the mains freqeucny. If that capacitor is defective, the winding will not be tuned, and I _think_ the output voltages go high, and are not regulated. > And you're not going to like this :-), but for an electronics novice, tonight I > followed my instinct and swapped the regulator PCBs between units. > Yup, the 'good' system's PCB now is putting out 42V and 17V! So, it's not > the regulation circuit, I guess, or any component on the two system's PCBs. > > But after swapping the PS regulator PCBs, all that's left are the > transformer (which appears to be putting out 'expected' voltages), a > 660V AC capacitor thingy (which I obviously don't understand...is it > part of the ferrroresonance?) that only connects That's the one that I susepct. > back to the transformer itself, and the two smoothing caps (one for the > 24V line and one for the 10V line). Is it possible that one/both > caps are 'pumping' the circuit? I'm just too novice to know. No, the smoothing capacitors could cause low outputs and excessive ripple, but I don't see how they could cause high outputs. > > Another suggestion I received privately hints that putting a dummy load > on the PS might bring it into line, and that I will try. I have access to an Thing is, you havve an identical PSU that works without a dummy load (as, BTW, do the ones in my RX01s and RX02s). I don't think you need a load on this supply/ -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 16:13:28 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:13:28 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > POWER5 and POWER6 have evolved quite a bit from where POWER4 was. IBM > made a lot more money selling POWER processors, systems, and consulting > to go with it, than they ever did with selling PPC chips to apple. IBM > was dragging their feet with PPC features on the G5 (and whatever would > have been G6), which is why Apple abandoned them; if IBM was making > enough money from Apple on their G5s, I'm sure that they would have > payed more attention to what Apple wanted (like low-power noteboot > CPUs). Looking back, the POWER lines for Apple were starting to be more of a nuisance for IBM. I do not think anyone was crying in Fishkill when the news came down about the Mac architecture change. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 16:20:41 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:20:41 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER > can, Feel the vibrations while chanting the mantra: Arrrrrrrrrr, Ayyyyyyy, Esssssss > other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs such > as OS/400 or zOS. ! (that is all I have say about that). > As such > it's tuned towards different demands than the POWER4, which is aimed > for expensive, non-cost-sensitive IBM servers, minis and mainframes - > not that there's a lot of difference between those 3 categories today. Feel the vibrations... -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 4 16:34:14 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:34:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <617183.65754.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Tony Duell wrote:> > > I, too, much prefer to have paper > datasheets/databooks. It's a lot easier > to flip thorugh a databook than try to find what > you want on the web. > > Before the days of 'everything on the web' the Relying on everything being on the web is very bad. All it takes is a server failure, closing of a website or someone to "leave the web forever" and all the data is gone. I am busy archiving a programming group (AMOS-LIST) over on Yahoo before it vanishes (Yahoo often delete groups without reason, regardless of how active it is). Mainly for my own use, but I have uploaded some of it to Aminet for fellow Amiga enthusiasts. Got a long way to go though, I have 3000 messages out of 8300 on my laptop. Hard work, but alot of valuable info (and example code). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 4 17:41:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? In-Reply-To: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070904153719.V35573@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Are any of the original MicroSolutions MatchPoint PC > designers still around? Does anyone own the > MatchPoint PC IP or is it now officially > "abandonware"? Although MicroSolutions does not sell it any more, they are definitely still around, and would protect their intellectual property. It is NOT "abandonware". (Legally, there ain't no sech animal - just because you don't know who owns something does NOT mean that you can lay claim to it) There is nothing special to the design. You could easily design your own board to do the same, or comparable. Take a close look at what the hardware does on it, "Apple Turnover", "CP Option board deluxe", and Catweasel. It would be EASIER to design your own than to try to reverse engineer the existing product. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 17:44:58 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:44:58 -0500 Subject: Wang 300 Calc Message-ID: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> I've got a line on one of these old Nixie-tube calculators at a fair price. I know they used an outboard processor, making them little more than (very pretty) terminals to a central CPU. Are they of any use other than a doorstop or eye candy for the collection? (And don't say "harvest them for the Nixies!") -- jht From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 18:11:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:11:30 -0600 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DDE622.7080608@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > The whole point of a regulator circuit is that the output voltage is > independant of the input. Of course too high an input voltage will do > damage, and for linear regulator circuits they run hotter as the input > voltage increases. But I could well believe a reasonably designed > regualtor would work correctly on double the input voltage, particularly > on no load. Well that may not be practical. Even with household AC you have your voltage bouncing around -- here 120V to 130V. Playing around with a high voltage supply @ 300V regulated I have about 475 peak volts. I don't want to handle twice input that since my 1200 volt diodes will go bang! Ben alias Woodelf From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 17:18:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:18:17 -0700 Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? In-Reply-To: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DD7739.20928.160492E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 11:58, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Is there any interest in reverse engineering the > MatchPoint PC card? I have one the cards and it > appears fairly simple. It is mostly a small number of > 74LSXX TTL chips and buffers. There are a small > number of PALs on the board which pose the biggest > challenge, I think. Outside of any IP legal issues (and there may be some whoppers), the value of the MP is, IMOHO, in the software, not the hardware. When the MP was created, technology was very limited. You're better off with a Catweasel or rolling your own with a PIC or AVR. I designed an Apple II disk controller piggybacked onto a PC (to do drive control) back in the early 80's. There's plenty of info around about the format and one would be almost trivial now. I wouldn't bother trying to RE an old card. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 18:12:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:12:33 -0700 Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? In-Reply-To: <20070904153719.V35573@shell.lmi.net> References: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <20070904153719.V35573@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DD83F1.20897.16363FE0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 15:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > Although MicroSolutions does not sell it any more, they are definitely > still around, and would protect their intellectual property. > It is NOT "abandonware". (Legally, there ain't no sech animal - just > because you don't know who owns something does NOT mean that you can lay > claim to it) Fred, I don't know if MS is still around. Their web site (micro- solutions.com) is gone and their phone is disconnected. I've searched around for what might have happened to them in Dekalb, but I can't find a thing. Anyone know for certain what happened to them? If you wanted to license the IP, you'd have to find out who acquired the assets. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 18:21:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:21:12 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason T wrote: > I've got a line on one of these old Nixie-tube calculators at a fair > price. I know they used an outboard processor, making them little > more than (very pretty) terminals to a central CPU. Are they of any > use other than a doorstop or eye candy for the collection? (And don't > say "harvest them for the Nixies!") > Well they still may be a good but slow calculator! At the original price they where built to last and are doing so still. Ben alias woodelf. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 18:28:07 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:28:07 -0500 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> On 9/4/07, woodelf wrote: > Well they still may be a good but slow calculator! > At the original price they where built to last and are doing > so still. > Ben alias woodelf. But aren't they simply front-end units to a central processor? I didn't think the 300 could do anything on it's own.. From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 18:47:27 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:47:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org> > which is sqrt(2) times as large. sqrt(2)+27.8 is about 40V. Hmmm... Are > you sure those secondary voltages are reasoable? I think so. The printset doesn't seem to specify the transformer's secondary voltages, but reviewing my historical notes from other RX0? revivals, the 'normal' voltages are roughly 24 and 10. > voltage increases. But I could well believe a reasonably designed > regualtor would work correctly on double the input voltage, particularly > on no load. It appears that the DEC designer did his/her job well, then, on this particular PS! :) > > Another suggestion I received privately hints that putting a dummy load > > on the PS might bring it into line, and that I will try. I have access to an > Thing is, you havve an identical PSU that works without a dummy load (as, > BTW, do the ones in my RX01s and RX02s). I don't think you need a load on > this supply/ Point taken, but after swapping the 660v AC cap between the units this afternoon, and seeing no difference. The only real thing left is the transformer, but I can test it's output directly, and it's at the 'normal' levels. So, I guess it's a 'dynamic' issue, rather than a static one. Maybe the load does matter. I'm going to try that next. - Jared From rickb at bensene.com Tue Sep 4 18:50:18 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:50:18 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The 300 - Series Wang Calculators consisted of two parts: an electronics package, and "Keyboard/Display Units". The electronics packages are usually small-briefcase-sized (single-user) or longer, shorter packages with a connector (or connectors for the multi-user versions) that the keyboard/display units plug into. The Keyboard/Display units are pretty much useless by themselves -- they need the "brains" in the electronics package to do anything. All the keyboard/display units consist of are a keyboard and keyboard encoding circuitry, and a Nixie tube display with display decode/driver electronics. There are no mathematical electronics in the Keyboard/display units. There were single-user calculator electronics packages and two "multi-user" electronic packages that could Run four simultaneous keyboard/display units. There were a number of different keyboard/display units made, with varying functions. There were two special Keyboard/display units (370 and 380) which had programming functionality in them, which would allow programs to be read from punched cards (370) or magnetic tape (380). These particular keyboard/display units are pretty hard to find. The other 300-series keyboard display units were the 300, 310, 320, and 360/362. These units varied in the number of math functions they provided. There were also four models of special keyboard/display units with diode ROMS and sequencers in them that would provide trigonometric functions (albeit slowly). These, too, are rather hard to find. The keyboard/display units have pretty simple circuitry inside them. It wouldn't be too hard to build some kind of microprocessor or microcontroller-based gizmo that would emulate the electronics package and bring a Keyboard/Display unit to life. You'd need some good math knowledge to implement the various math routines, but the interface is a very simple multiplexed BCD display, and a six-bit key code for each key, encoded by a diode matrix. You can lear more at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang360.html. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Wang 300 Calc > > I've got a line on one of these old Nixie-tube calculators at > a fair price. I know they used an outboard processor, making > them little more than (very pretty) terminals to a central > CPU. Are they of any use other than a doorstop or eye candy > for the collection? (And don't say "harvest them for the Nixies!") > > -- > jht > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 18:52:57 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:52:57 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DDEFD9.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason T wrote: > On 9/4/07, woodelf wrote: > >> Well they still may be a good but slow calculator! >> At the original price they where built to last and are doing >> so still. >> Ben alias woodelf. > > But aren't they simply front-end units to a central processor? I > didn't think the 300 could do anything on it's own.. A quick google proves you are right. Well if you can't get the 'brain' part you are out of luck I guess. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Sep 4 18:54:07 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:54:07 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> Jason T wrote: >On 9/4/07, woodelf wrote: > > > >>Well they still may be a good but slow calculator! >>At the original price they where built to last and are doing >>so still. >>Ben alias woodelf. >> >> > >But aren't they simply front-end units to a central processor? I >didn't think the 300 could do anything on it's own.. > > > > there is a tabletop box with nixies and keys and switches. There is a box, not a mainframe that was about the size of a desktop in the case of the ones at UMR that several heads were connected to. I believe that they had payed in the tens of thousands for a unit with 5 or so heads and a card reader for entering programs, in 1970 dollars. I have seen both the head and the processor and a working unit on ebay, but not very often. I have one of the card reader units, but nothing else. Jim From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 19:11:22 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:11:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> Quoting J Blaser : > So, I guess it's a 'dynamic' issue, rather than a static one. Maybe the > load does matter. I'm going to try that next. > Success! Well, well, what do you know! A load does indeed make a difference. As suggested earlier (thanks guys!), I tried to scrounge around for something that I could use to load the PS. I thought I had a few vehicle headlamps, but short of stealing a couple from my car, I came up short. Hmmm......why can't I just use a regular household lightbulb? They're designed for 120v (or, as Tony pointed out, actually peak voltage of 170), right? I didn't expect to see light at just 24 or even 42 volts, but I figured I could easily replace a $1.98 light bulb if things went bad for me. Sure enough, just that simple addition to the circuit put things right. I read 27.5v and 11.5v on the two outputs in question. (And, no, I saw no light.) Though these voltages were not exactly spot on to the 'spec', they were close enough to convince me that I'd be safe attaching the PS to the PCBs. I took the plunge, and things are looking just fine. I'm now reading 24.8v and 9.7v with everything connected, which are pretty close to 'spec'. So, I guess there is some quirk in this particular PS that lets the voltage 'runaway' when not loaded. Even so, I'm now a happy camper with my incredibly powerful PDP-11/03 running with 64KB and four (count 'em....four!) RX01 devices for total storage of just under 1MB! That'll knock the socks off my neighborhood high- school computer whiz! I'll be the envy of town! ;-p Many thanks to all that helped me work through this. - Jared From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 19:24:44 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:24:44 -0500 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DDEFD9.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> <46DDEFD9.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <51ea77730709041724v1bfa83fcgcd20cc5ae3bdc7bc@mail.gmail.com> On 9/4/07, woodelf wrote: > A quick google proves you are right. Well if you can't get > the 'brain' part you are out of luck I guess. Ah, but it's still a cool-looking, 40+ year old box with a keypad and a bunch of Nixie tubes :) So maybe I'll go for it anyway. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 4 19:24:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:24:01 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46DDF721.3080505@yahoo.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? > That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. > Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. > Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. > Two security guys dragging me out of the building. > The visitors would love that!! Heh :-) Being as hands-on as possible is still one of our primary goals - although there's always going to be caveats on what's left running, or what level of supervision any given system has of course, but for the majority of machines we actively encourage people to sit down and have a play. The best will in the world probably isn't going to keep this stuff operational much beyond a few decades, and I'm not sure if anyone really knows what's going to happen to the plastics a few more decades beyond that; whilst we have a duty to store inactive systems for future generations, it also seems wise to let people extract maximum enjoyment out of these systems now whilst they still can... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 20:30:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:30:11 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041724v1bfa83fcgcd20cc5ae3bdc7bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> <46DDEFD9.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041724v1bfa83fcgcd20cc5ae3bdc7bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DE06A3.1010007@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason T wrote: > Ah, but it's still a cool-looking, 40+ year old box with a keypad and > a bunch of Nixie tubes :) So maybe I'll go for it anyway. Or be creative ... Hide a calculator chip somewhere inside. Regardless make sure you have DOC's from somewhere. If they got the terminals who has the brain? They all came once as a set you know. Ben alias woodelf. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 20:39:38 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:39:38 -0600 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org> <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <46DE08DA.6070805@jetnet.ab.ca> J Blaser wrote: > Even so, I'm now a happy camper with my incredibly > powerful PDP-11/03 running with 64KB and four (count > 'em....four!) RX01 devices for total storage of just under > 1MB! That'll knock the socks off my neighborhood high- > school computer whiz! I'll be the envy of town! ;-p I don't want to see a 40 year nerd with no socks walking around ... Give me a 20 year old with no on making a quick dash instead. :) > Many thanks to all that helped me work through this. Would that be a standard system 4 RX01's? > - Jared PS. Nice to talk about a classic computers again. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 20:41:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:41:15 -0700 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org>, <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <46DDA6CB.13185.16BE6365@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 18:11, J Blaser wrote: > Well, well, what do you know! A load does indeed make > a difference. Well, the 24v is used primarily for the head positioner and the head- load solenoid, so its voltage isn't terribly critical. If you want to feel secure with a regulated voltage, try putting something like a 7824KC or 78H24 (2A, 24v) TO-3 regulator. But if your RX01 has lasted this long without, it's probably not important. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 4 21:04:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, jim wrote: > I have one of the card reader units, but nothing else. If it's like the one that I have, and/or the one that I used briefly in about 1970, it is 40 column, using every other column of a standard IBM card, making the "port-a-punch" cards ideal for it. (If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 21:25:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:25:47 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 03 September 2007 19:59, der Mouse wrote: > > Meant to include this in my earlier post - > > > > Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of > > old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National > > Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, > > ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices, Memories etc. > > Date range late 70's to early '90s. > > Interesting you mention that now. I just today found I have 22 tubes > of assorted DIPs. 16 of them I've been able to find enough info to > use, if I have a need for them - but there are six more I haven't. I > was going to write here and ask if anyone knows where to find specs > (including pinouts) for these - I spent some time with google, and even > checked bitsavers.org and vt100.net (neither of which seems to have > that kind of info - perhaps I missed something?). > > Specifically, what I have that's a mystery (/ represents a line break): > > MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 > CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 > GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 I've no direct experience with these, but have heard of "GAL" chips, sort of like "PAL" chips is about all that comes to mind offhand. > MC14034B / CP QQ8318 This one I can pretty well identify. Motorola had already used their 4000 series numbers on some earlier TTL stuff so they couldn't use them after the 4000 series CMOS parts came out, therefore they tacked a 1 in front of the number. By any other maker that'd be a 4034. I'm pretty sure my parts pages have data on that one. (Try http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/by-generic-number.html ) > > If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling > > please let me know. > > I'd like to snag them myself, but I can't help suspecting it would cost > an unpleasant amount to get them clear around the globe. Indeed. > > My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the > > various archives. > > Perhaps, but I cahn't help wondering where. Got three DVDs full of datasheets here, I'm updating and organizing as fast as I can, as time permits. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lee at geekdot.com Tue Sep 4 21:30:39 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 04:30:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PC/PCMCIA cards Message-ID: <1363.82.71.40.17.1188959439.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> IBM Turbo 16/4 Token-Ring PC Card 2 no lead IBM Turbo 16/4 Token-Ring PC Card no lead Toshiba V34 FAX Class II PCMCIA with lead Available for postage from UK Lee. From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 21:33:47 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:33:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188959627.46de158b81aa3@www.jblaser.org> woodelf said: > I don't want to see a 40 year nerd with no socks walking around ... > Give me a 20 year old with no on making a quick dash > instead. :) Ha! > Would that be a standard system 4 RX01's? I don't think so. This system appears to be circa 1977, and my oldest DEC handbook is from 1981, so doesn't even describe the old short, 4-slot BA-11M box that houses the CPU. But the handbook does describe a PDP-11/03 system with just the LSI-11 CPU, 8KW (16KB) and a single dual-drive RX01 storage subsystem. That would obviously be 'reasonably' the minimal system possible, I suppose. If you were a bit more willing to part with money, then you'd have an 11/23 CPU with one or even two RL01 5MB removable cartridge disks. Woohoo, huge step up in storage capacity! - Jared From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 4 21:33:52 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:33:52 -0500 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA Message-ID: <46DE1590.3070707@pacbell.net> Today I received an email from a gentleman in possession of an AT&T PC6300, wanting to know if I wanted it for the cost of shipping. I'm not interested in collecting PCs, so I said I'd pass it on to the list. Here is his description of the machine: (start of quote) As the original purchaser, I am seeking a new home for a pristine 1985 Personal Computer with peripherals, software, and original documentation. All were functioning perfectly in February 1998, when replaced and stored. All items are in their original boxes: AT&T PC6300 with 256KB RAM and two 5-1/4" floppy drives, Color Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse, and Citizen MSP-15 dot matrix printer with 8-1/2x11 and 11x15 tractor feed paper. As you know, this PC was the state of the art technology in 1985 and the best and fastest of the pre-"Windows" operating system platforms. It is an excellent representation depicting the end of the Dot Matrix and DOS eras. (end of quote) If you are interested, please mail me off-list at frustum at pacbell.net. I'll forward his contact information to you (I'd put it here, but some people reasonably don't like having their personal information stuck in a public forum archive). Thanks. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 21:34:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:34:22 -0400 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <200709042234.22794.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 04 September 2007 05:12, J Blaser wrote: > > IIRC, the 'raw DC' is unregulated, just rectified and smoothed from the > > transformer. As is the 24V line. Both are about 1.7* what they should be. > > That's the strange thing to me. The two secondaries from the transformer > (one for the 24V line, and the other for the 10V line [which sources the > regulated 5V output]) are 'proper' at 27.8V and 11.2V, respectively. What > I don't understand is how a 24V line can suddenly produce 42V! It's like > something is 'pumping' the circuit, and I admit I have never studied how > such things work. What pops into my head on reading this is that you might possibly be seeing some sort of an artifact, if you're using a digital meter! > The funny thing is that the 5V regulation is working, even with 17V input > instead of 10V. > > > It's gettign late, so I'll not find the prints tonight. But IIRC, the > > transformer in this supply is a ferroresonant one, and that's what > > stabilises the 'raw' and 24V lines. What happens if the capacitor hung > > off that is defective? > > Fair point, but can a faulty capacitor 'pump' up the voltage like I'm > seeing? A faulty cap can have all sorts of noise, hum, hash, and other nonsense riding on top of the DC level, and that might (falsely) end up giving you a higher reading than what you'd expect. > > I suspect the last part is very ture. Actually replacing the faulty part > > is the easy bit :-) > > Hey, thanks for your confidence! :-) I can use a little outside support! > ;-) > > Let me add that this RX01 is the second of two RX01 units in this system. > When I went through the first one a week ago, it checked out fine...that is > I saw 25V/10.2v on the outputs, without a load. > > And you're not going to like this :-), but for an electronics novice, > tonight I followed my instinct and swapped the regulator PCBs between > units. Yup, the 'good' system's PCB now is putting out 42V and 17V! So, > it's not the regulation circuit, I guess, or any component on the two > system's PCBs. > > But after swapping the PS regulator PCBs, all that's left are the > transformer (which appears to be putting out 'expected' voltages), a 660V > AC capacitor thingy (which I obviously don't understand...is it part of the > ferrroresonance?) that only connects back to the transformer itself, and > the two smoothing caps (one for the 24V line and one for the 10V line). Is > it possible that one/both caps are 'pumping' the circuit? I'm > just too novice to know. One point about ferroresonant transformers -- that capacitor you mention is typically "selected" to go with that particular transformer. If you look, you'll probably find a small dot of the same color paint on both of them. > Another suggestion I received privately hints that putting a dummy load > on the PS might bring it into line, and that I will try. I have access to > an oscilloscope, and will put it on the thing, too, to see if I can > discover anything strange. One more point about ferroresonant transformers -- their output is often NOT sinewave, but a rather distorted waveform, that would tend to upset some meters, I'd think. Your scope should show you more of what's actually going on there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 21:46:22 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:46:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188960382.46de187e05f92@www.jblaser.org> Chuck said: > Well, the 24v is used primarily for the head positioner and the head- > load solenoid, so its voltage isn't terribly critical. This is good to know. I admit, I haven't gone through the RX01 logic PCB schematics. You've saved me some trouble. Thanks. > If you want to feel secure with a regulated voltage, try putting > something like a 7824KC or 78H24 (2A, 24v) TO-3 regulator. But if > your RX01 has lasted this long without, it's probably not important. Yes. I'm probably not worried enough to do this. Like you said, if this 30-year old system has survived all these years so far, it's probably going to be okay (unlike an RD53 that just failed on me, but that's another story....). - Jared From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 21:48:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 21:48:27 -0500 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188959627.46de158b81aa3@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188959627.46de158b81aa3@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: On 9/4/07, J Blaser wrote: > If you were a bit more willing to part with money, then you'd > have an 11/23 CPU with one or even two RL01 5MB removable > cartridge disks. Woohoo, huge step up in storage capacity! I think you'd want a BA-11N to stick an RLV11 in there. I'm reasonably certain, from the top of my head, that a BA-11N has CD slots and the BA-11M does not, but I could easily be misremembering. My first -11 hard drive controller was an RLV11 that ran me about $100. I dropped into a BA-11N w/KDF11, DLV11J, MSV11-mumble (M8044), and LPV11 that all ran me $300 in 1986. I borrowed a VT220, an RL01, and an LA180 from my main PDP-8/a, I made a living on that -11 for almost two years. I still have it in a slightly improved form (I upgraded the backplane to 22-bit and threw more memory into it). I ran RT-11 v5.something on it for years (5.3?) Very nice system, but so is the OP's 11/03 w/floppy. RT-11 works fine on a floppy-only system. It works *great* on a hard-disk system. It was one of my favorite environments before I managed to scrape together my first UNIX system a few years later. -ethan From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Sep 4 21:53:05 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:53:05 -0500 Subject: Bug reports Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070904215140.0b2dfd08@localhost> I found this in my ancient documents collection. Thought it might have some reminiscence value. WORDSTAR 5.5 PROBLEM REPORTS Ed Zollars [72235,1234] Date: June 25, 1989 The following file summarizes some of the possible bug reports and undocumented features in the WordStar 5.5 editor. These listings apply to Revision A of WordStar 5.5 and represent only a summary of those items reported on the WordStar Forum on Compuserve. If you find any errors in this document, or believe you have found something else that should be included in this document, please post a message on the WordStar forum on Compuserve and I will work it into a new file. This file only summarizes problems and undocumented features with the editor itself--I have not attempted to describe possible problems with the printer drivers. I have attempted to give credit to the individuals who first posted the problem or undocumented feature on the WordStar forum--I apologize to anyone I left off. This file is meant to serve the same purpose for WordStar 5.5 that the BUGS.WS4 file written by Robert J. Sawyer did for WordStar 4, and that BUGWS5.COM does for WordStar 5.0. ---------------------------------------------------------------- BUGS AND DOCUMENTATION ERRORS ---------------------------------------------------------------- ADVANCED PAGE PREVIEW SHOWS LINE HEIGHT CHANGES TAKING PLACE ONE LINE HIGHER THAN THEY ACTUALLY DO: (Reported by Kurt Gebauer) Problem: Advanced Page preview shows a line height change as taking place one line before it actually will during printing. A line height command will actually control the amount of space after the line following the command--APP shows it as affecting the line preceding the command. ADVANCED PAGE PREVIEW WILL RESET A HERCULES INCOLOR CARD TO MONOCHROME MODE: (Reported by Gary Gibson) Problem: The README file indicates that you set colors for a Hercules InColor Card by using the PALETTE.COM program prior to entering WordStar. This will work just fine until the user enters page preview using ^OP. At that point the card will be reset to monochrome. AUTOMATIC LEADING DOES NOT CHANGE LINE HEIGHTS ON THE PROPER LINE: (Reported by Kurt Gebauer) Problem: When using automatic leading (.LH AUTO), line height changes on the line AFTER a font change is made, which is one line after it should in order to maintain proper spacing. Workaround: Trick WS55 by placing a font change on the end of the line before the line you want to use the new font. That will cause WordStar to use the proper spacing. WordStar International reports that this problem will be corrected in Revision C of the program, to be released at the beginning of July. AUTOPATCHING FROM A WORDSTAR 5.0 COPY WITHOUT REMOVING CERTAIN LABELS CAN CAUSE LOSS OF FILES: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Problem: The following is taken directly from a message posted by James Burton. CAUTION must be used when creating a patch file in WordStar 5.0 and reading it into WordStar 5.5 with the Auto-Patcher in WSCHANGE. Some labels from WordStar 5.0 are obsolete and should be removed from a WordStar 5.0 patch file before it is read into 5.5; there is a list of these labels in README Section 20.2.1. One problem related to this: ^KQ can sometimes delete a file if WordStar 5.5 has been patched indiscriminately from a WordStar 5.0 Auto-Patch file. CURSOR POSITIONING FOR PROMPTS IS ERRATIC IN ROM BIOS MODE: (Reported by Chuck Christenson) Problem: The following description of a problem was posted by Chuck Christenson: On my HP150 (running in ROM BIOS mode), when a prompt is displayed onscreen, the cursor is typically positioned somewhere to the southeast of the field in which the response is supposed to be typed, and the response character is displayed onscreen where the cursor is positioned. This is sometimes cleared up when the screen is refreshed after the response is entered, and in any case can be cleared up by using ^\. CURSOR IS IMPROPERLY POSITIONED ON THE SCREEN FOLLOWING A GLOBAL REFORM: Problem: Following a global reform (^QU), the cursor is positioned at the top left corner of the screen, rather than at the end of the file. The cursor also refuses to respond to most positioning commands. Workaround: Press ^\ after doing a global reform. WSI is aware of this problem, and has announced that it should be fixed in the first inline release due at the end of June. CURSOR SIZING AND OVERWRITE MODE (Reported by Jim Gainsley) Problem: WordStar 5.5 includes a feature to set the cursor to differing sizes depending upon whether insert mode is on or off. Unfortunately, if insert mode is set off as the default, WordStar 5.5 won't set the cursor to the correct size upon entry into WordStar. The cursor will also be set to the incorrect size if you use Advanced Page Preview or run a DOS command while insert is set off. Workaround: If the cursor is out of synch, pressing ^V or insert twice will bring it back into agreement with the state of the insert mode. WSEX for WordStar 5.5 (a copyrighted free program available in Library 4 of the WordStar Forum on Compuserve) will fix this bug in most situations. WSI has announced that this bug should be fixed in the Revison C inline for WordStar 5.5, due out at the end of June. DELETING TO THE LEFT OF THE LINE (^Q) ON A LINE IMMEDIATELY BEFORE A PAGE BREAK CAN CAUSE THE LOSS OF THE LINE IMMEDIATELY ABOVE THE PAGE BREAK: (Reported by Roger Mayer) Problem: Attempting to delete to the left of the cursor on the line before a page break can result in WS deleting both the characters to the left of the cursor and the line above the page break. Also, the page break itself will disappear and can only be brought back with ^QR/^QP. Workaround: No real workaround except to remember to hit ^U to restore the deleted text if this happens to you. DISPLAY OF ENHANCEMENTS ON THE SCREEN IS IN ERROR WHEN A PRINT CONTROL IS WRAPPED ONTO COLUMN ONE: (Reported by Daniel A. Murphy) Problem: If you are editing a document and a print control code gets wrapped into the column one (as will happen if the first word affected by code happens to come at the beginning of the line), WordStar will display the wrong attributes on the screen for the code in question. For instance, if the code is a ^S for underlining, all the text on the screen that isn't going to be printed with underlines will be displayed with underling. Workaround: Hit ^\ when this happens. That causes WS to redraw the screen. When WS does that, it will "notice" the problem and correct it. EDITING A DOCUMENT FILE THAT USES STYLES IN NONDOCUMENT MODE WILL CAUSE A SYSTEM CRASH: Problem: If you open a document file in nondocument mode in WordStar, the program will freeze as you attempt to cursor past a style setting. WSI has acknowledged this problem and has announced plans to correct it in the Revision C inline upgrade for WS5.5, due out at approximately the end of June. ENTERING A LINE HEIGHT COMMAND IMMEDIATELY BEFORE A CONDITIONAL PAGE BREAK WILL CAUSE A CRASH: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Problem: If you attempt to enter a line height command immediately before a conditional page break, the program will crash with a Divide Overflow. Note also that attempting to edit a line height command immediately preceding a conditional page break could cause the same problem. Workaround: Comment out the conditional page break before editing the line height command. It is best to move the line height command way from that position if at all possible, or to use a style to replace the line height command. WSI has acknowledged this problem and has announced plans to correct it in the Revision C inline upgrade for WS5.5, due out at approximately the end of June. FOOTNOTE SEPARATOR CANNOT BE SET TO AN UPPER ASCII (> 128) VALUE IN WSCHANGE. (Reported by Robert Vanatta) Problem: If you attempt to use a character in the upper ASCII set (like the line drawing horizontal bar) as your footnote separator, WS will strip off the high bit and treat the character as its lower ASCII equivalent. FINAL PAGE OF A DOCUMENT IS NOT EJECTED IN SOME CASES: (Reported by Robert H. Herrin) Problem: If pause between pages is turned on when printing, WordStar will not eject the last page (at least when using certain daisy wheel printers). FUNCTION KEY LABELS DISAPPEAR AFTER SELECTING A PRINTER: (Reported by Jerry Cudmore) Problem: When a printer is selected with ^P?, the function key labels will disappear from the bottom of the screen. Workaround: Hit ^\ to force a repainting of the screen. The function key labels will reappear. This problem has been acknowledged by WSI, and is supposed to be fixed in the Revision C inline version of WS5.5, due out at the end of June. GLOBAL REFORM WILL NOT UPDATE THE SCREEN WHILE RUNNING EVEN IF THE OPTION IS SET IN WSCHANGE: (Reported by Robert Vannatta) Problem: If you turn on the option in WSCHANGE to cause WS to not suppress the display when doing a global reform (^QU), the program will not properly show the reform taking place. While the cursor will move up and down the screen, no text will be rewritten. Workaround: None. This problem has been acknowledged by WordStar International and will be fixed in the Revision C inline upgrade to WS5.5, which should be released at the beginning of July. HIGH BITS ARE BEING STRIPPED OFF FILES WHEN THEY ARE SAVED FROM NONDOCUMENT MODE: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If you load a file that contains "high bit" characters (ECS characters) that aren't surrounded by the appropriate WS document mode fence characters (such as a file downloaded from a BBS), WS will strip off the high bits when it saves the file. Note that WS has always displayed such characters as if the high bits were gone, but it used to still save the high bits unless you explicitly issued a ^QU to clear those bits. Workaround: The following patch was posted by James Burton of WordStar International on the forum to fix this problem: You reported that nondocument mode was stripping high bits on saving. I've been provided with a patch for that effect, to wit: REN WS.EXE WS DEBUG WS -R (Check the DS register and add 2000 to its value,.ie., 3237+2000=5237. Let nnnn = the result). -E nnnn:74B0 (you'll see): .7F . (Enter): FF -W -Q Rename the file back to WS.EXE and you should be fixed. This problem is also fixed in the current version of WSEX that is available in Library 4 of the WordStar forum on Compuserve. WordStar International has acknowledged this problem, and it will be fixed in the Revision C inline that will be available at the beginning of July. HIJAAK TRANSLATED GRAPHICS FILES SOMETIMES CAN'T BE DISPLAYED BY PAGE PREVIEW: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: Some Hijaak translated files (some TIFF format files have been implicated) will not be displayed in APP, and instead you will receive an improper graphic format complaint. The graphic will print fine, and you can use Inset to preview the graphic on the text screen. ITALICIZING TEXT THAT HAS BEEN BOLDED WITH A STYLE DOES NOT WORK CONSISTENTLY: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If text has been set to boldface by using a style, you may not get italicized text if you attempt to set italics with ^PY. Workaround: If you encounter this situation, use hard formatting (^PB) to set boldface rather than using the style. WordStar International has acknowledged the problem, and this will be corrected in the Revision C inline upgrade available at the beginning of July. LEFT MARGIN SET TO LARGE NUMBER THAT IS WIDER THAN THE RIGHT MARGIN WILL RESULT IN AN INFINITE RIGHT MARGIN WHEN LEFT MARGIN IS CORRECTED: (Reported by Mark Peterson) Problem: If you happen to enter a large left margin value (such as 150) that is greater than the right margin, WordStar will reset the right margin to an infinite length. This can easily happen if you work with insert on and go to the dot command line to change the left margin. For instance, if you typed in ".LM 10" as your original right margin command, then went back to change it to 20, you might place your cursor on the 1, type a 2 and then delete the 1. When you do this, you will find your right margin has been reset to an infinite length. Workaround: Return to the top of the file (^QR) then return to your old edit position (^QP). This will force WS to reread the dot commands and set its margins accordingly. LINES IN THE MIDDLE OF PARAGRAPHS IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING A PAGE BREAK ARE MISALIGNED AT TIMES ON THE SCREEN: (Reported by Peter Mierau) Problem: If a paragraph spans a page break and the left margin is set to a value other than zero, the first line following the page will be offset approximately twice as much as it should be to the left on the screen. The printout is not affected, and Advanced Page Preview shows that the line is properly aligned. This doesn't always happen when reforming across a page break, but will eventually appear if you edit the paragraph. Workaround: You can force WS to move the line back if you want the onscreen display to be correct. Turn on soft space display (^OB) and print control code display (^OD). You will see two "tabs" to the left of the first character. Go to the left margin and delete BOTH of them--WS should reform the line with just one of these characters. WordStar International has acknowledged this problem and it should be fixed in the Revision C inline upgrade, to be available in early July. LOGGING ONTO A NEW DIRECTORY WHILE EDITING A DOCUMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME WILL CAUSE THE FILE TO BE SAVED IMPROPERLY: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If the directory is changed with ^KL while editing a brand new document that has not previously been saved, exiting the document with ^KD will cause the document to be saved with the proper filename, but with the temporary file extension of $B$. That name will flash briefly on the status line during the save when this problem is encountered. The $B$ file will not be visible in a WordStar directory listing (unless the default exclusion list has been changed). Attempting to edit this file will cause an immediate loss of the information in the file. This problem has also been reported by other users in slightly different circumstances. Workaround: If you do create the $B$ file, rename the file and then edit it as normal in WordStar. You can protect yourself from deleting the file accidentally by setting up WordStar through WSCHANGE as if it is being used on a multiuser system--then when it detects the presence of the $B$ files, it will refuse to edit the file. PAGE PREVIEW AT TIMES SHOWS THE WRONG FONT WHEN THIRD PARTY FONTS ARE ADDED: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: At times, Page Preview will show a number of your third party fonts which you have generated screen for as the same font in the preview page. Workaround: From a message left by Richard Zuris of WordStar International: Page Preview gets confused by some fonts and puts in the wrong font code in FONTID.CTL. The font code is a four- character hexademinal word that comes at the end of the line where the font is listed in FONTID. This number is supposed to be read from the PDF. You can read it from the PDF and straighten FONTID out yourself. In PDFEDIT, select Typestyle/font information, choose a typeface, then hit enter on "Key (# and characteristics)." This reveals the font code, which can be used in FONTID to replace the incorrect number the. The symptom of having wrong font codes in FONTID is that all of your third-party (i.e., LSRFONTS-generated) fonts will display in Preview with the style/face of whatever the LAST font is in the FONTID list. PARAGRAPH NUMBERING SOMETIMES SHOWS IMPROPER NUMBERS ON THE SCREEN: (Reported by Thomas J. River) Problem: At times, the paragraph numbers shown on the screen contain incorrect values. Workaround: Go out to Page Preview or go to the top of the file and return (^QR^QP). That should restore the proper onscreen numbering. PHRASES MARKED FOR INDEXING WITH ^PK THAT WRAP OVER TWO LINES WHERE THE LEFT MARGIN IS NOT 1 WILL NOT INDEX PROPERLY: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If the left margin is set to a value other than one and ^PK is used to mark a phrase for indexing, a problem can occur if the phrase is split over two lines. Workaround: Use ^ONI to indicate phrase index entries in areas of text where the left margin will be other than 1. PRCHANGE WILL NOT GENERATE PROPER SCREEN FONTS IF A FONT IS AVAILABLE ONLY IN BOLDFACE: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If you allow PRCHANGE to generate screen fonts in a case where some of the fonts are available only in boldface, you will lose the ability to display any fonts in boldface in page preview. Workaround: First install only those fonts that have standard weight fonts available. Generate those screen fonts and exit PRCHANGE. Later, reenter PRCHANGE and add the other fonts. DO NOT generate screen fonts for these fonts, but instead use the defaults. PREVIEW CRASHES IF INSET IS LOADED AND A GRAPHIC EXISTS ON THE PAGE: (Reported by Robert P. Vannatta) Problem: If Inset has been loaded as a TSR (from the DOS command line and not using ^P&), attempting to preview a graphic will cause WS to lock up, requiring a reboot. Workaround: Inset should not be loaded as a TSR when working inside WordStar. PRINT COMMAND SOMETIMES FAILS TO WORK ON COMPLICATED DOCUMENTS: Problem: The "P"rint command from the main menu sometimes fails when confronted with a complicated document to print. For example, most users have had problems using the "P"rint command to print out the WSEX 1.05 documentation. The program will freeze at certain points in the printing process, requiring a reboot. Workaround: Use the merge command to print the file. Merge has not had the problems the print command has had in printing the files. As a practical matter, the merge command can be used as the "standard" printing system for WS5.5, unless you intentionally want to supress the action of merge commands. PRINTING WHEN THERE IS A "MODE=LPT1:,,p" IN EFFECT WILL CAUSE A SYSTEM HANG: Problem: If your AUTOEXEC.BAT file contains a MODE setting for LPT1 that includes the "p" parameter or you later invoke that command while working with your computer, WordStar will hang when you attempt to print. Workaround: Don't use the MODE command in this manner. WSI has announced that this bug will be fixed in the first inline for WordStar 5.5 (scheduled for the end of June). RECURSIVE MACROS CANNOT BE EXITED WITH ^U IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES: (Reported by Jerry Cudmore) Problem: If WordStar is given a macro that calls itself (a recursive macro), you may not be able to stop execution the macro with ^U and will find that the only way out is to reboot the machine. Workaround: Put a ^P in the repeating portion of the macro. During the execution of that command, WS will check the keyboard buffer for a ^U. Since the command does nothing, it has no real effect on the macro. SEARCHING FOR A CARRIAGE RETURN BY ITSELF CAUSES AN UNUSUAL DISPLAY IF THE FOUND CARRIAGE RETURN IS AT THE END OF A PAGE: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If the search function is looking for a bare carriage return (^M^J), when it finds one at the end of a page the display will be corrupted. Workaround: Press ^\ when the display is corrupted--the actual text in your file has not been damaged, and ^\ will update the screen to reflect this fact. SETTING EDITING VALUES IN WSCHANGE APPEARS TO HAVE NO EFFECT: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Problem: The following comment was posted by James Burton on the forum message board: Resetting some default values in WSCHANGE will appear to have no effect while editing. This is because the Body Text Paragraph Style currently overrides those settings (left and right margins, tabs, default font, etc.). To set defaults for those parameters, make the changes to the Body Text Style and save them to the library. This is covered on the OOPS sheet that came with the package. SETTING THE HELP LEVEL TO AN ERRONEOUS VALUE CAUSES AN ERRONEOUS ERROR MESSAGE TO BE ISSUED: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If you type an invalid response (such as a letter) when attempting to change help levels using ^JJ, WordStar will respond with an error message that states "Only numbers and the + and - characters are valid". In fact, the + and - signs are also invalid. SOFT FORMATTING DOES NOT WORK (Reported by Elias Davis) Problem: If you have turned off the insertion of dot commands in WSCHANGE, WordStar will not change margins when you exit the tabs & margins dialogue box. Workaround: There really isn't one, except to go ahead and insert hard formatting codes into the document, or define and use a style. STYLES SOMETIMES DON'T TAKE EFFECT DEPENDING UPON THEIR POSITION IN THE LINE: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: Style sheet attributes sometimes don't take effect depending upon their position with regard to soft spaces in the line. Workaround: Try moving the style in the line if you encounter this problem. The best place to put a style code is at the beginning of a line. STAR EXCHANGE IGNORES STYLE SHEET SETTINGS: (Reported by Elias Davis) Problem: Star Exchange does not pick up changes that are made to a WordStar file through the use of styles. The last hard formatting command entered will control the translated formatting. Workaround: Any document that is to be shipped to another format using Star Exchange should be formatted with dot commands, and *not* with styles. TABS CANNOT BE CONVERTED FROM LEFT ALIGNED TO DECIMAL: (Reported by Jerry Cudmore) Problem: If a tab is first entered with the ruler line showing the tab as left aligned, changing the tab in the ruler line to a decimal tab will not cause the text to align correctly, even after reforming. Workaround: Delete the tab and reenter it. WSSETUP DOES NOT WORK CORRECTLY WITH DOS 4.0X IF SHARE.EXE IS LOADED: (Reported by John Jurewicz) Problem: DOS 4.0x users with large hard disk partitions (greater than 32 Meg.) have reported problems running WSSETUP. The conflict appears to be with the SHARE.EXE that DOS 4.0x loads to support the larger partition. WSSETUP will report that it can't find WINSTALL.HLP and won't recognize the Advanced Customization Disk. Workaround: The only way around this one is to do a manual installation, copying your files from the distribution disks to the hard drive. Some users have reported success by removing SHARE.EXE from their CONFIG.SYS and using DOS 4.0's automatic load (by having SHARE.EXE in the root directory). Apparently the automatic load does not cause conflicts with WSSETUP. WordStar International has acknowledged the problem, and the Revision C inline (due out at the beginning of July) should fix this problem with WSSETUP. ---------------------------------------------------------------- UNDOCUMENTED FEATURES ---------------------------------------------------------------- ^] TO REDUCE SIZE OF SECOND WINDOW (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Description: If you are using a help level of 3 or lower, you can use ^] to reduce the size of the second window. At help level 4 this command puts the cursor on the pull down window line (performs like Alt-Space). ^L IN DIALOGUE BOXES: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Description: WordStar 5 will let you use ^L to move backwards through a dialogue box, in addition to the Shift-Tab command that is documented. ^O? DISPLAYS MEMORY USAGE: (Reported by Peter Mierau) Description: The undocumented ^O? command will display the amount of memory usage of WordStar while editing a document. In addition, it displays the current language in use and whether Inset is currently loaded. ^P1 - ^P9 FOR EXTENDED CHARACTERS: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Description: In addition to using ^P0 to call up the ECS entry window, you can call up the window by hitting any of the other number keys after hitting ^P. The number you hit will be automatically entered as the first number in the dialogue box. ^Q~--SET INSERT MODE AND DON'T FLUSH BUFFER Description: When WS5 receives this command, it automatically turns insert on and disables the flushing of the keyboard buffer that WS normally does until the buffer is empty. This command is useful for external keyboard enhancers that need to be able to disable WS5's keyboard buffer flushing and want insert mode set on. This command is not new in WS5, but existed in Release 4. ^QU WILL CONVERT A FILE TO ASCII IN NONDOCUMENT MODE: (Reported by Chuck Christenson) Description: ^QU will remove the WS5 header from a document file, convert tabbed symmetrical sequences to spaces, remove all other symmetrical sequences and strip off any high bits set in the file. What it does not do is remove print control codes (like ^PB, ^PS, etc.). CONFIGURATION FILES CAN BE USED WITH WORDSTAR 5.5: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Description: Beginning with the 09x releases of WordStar 5.0, configuration files were supported. These files allow you to put together various patched versions of WS without having to have an entire extra copy of WS on your hard drive. In Release 5.5 they appear to have disappeared again, but you can get them back. The steps to use are taken from a message from James Burton of WordStar International Corporation that is listed below: Run WINSTALL, select WSCHANGE. (Don't just run WSCHANGE). Select E for Patching. Hit "=", enter the label MPMFLG. Add 4 to the left digit of the first byte, i.e.: 30 +4 =70 Enter the result. Hit "." to display the change. Hit "X", "^X", and "Y" to exit and save changes. As you leave WSCHANGE, you'll hit the CFG selection screen. The current setup sort of locks you in to using CFG files, but I personally have not found this to be a burden. Additional information: CFG files cannot be used to define the default paths for WordStar. WS will continue to use the defaults that were set in the WS.EXE file before you switch to CFG files. DOUBLE UNDERLINING CAN BE FULLY IMPLEMENTED USING ".XX_": (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Description: The WordStar manual and the PRINT.TST file says that if the user sets the strikeout character to "_" and then surrounds the text to be double underlined with both ^X and ^S characters, the text will be double underlined. All that is necessary is the ^PX command--once you reassign the strikeout character to "_", WS will do all of the work of building a true double underline character. If you set your default in WSCHANGE to make the strikeout character "_", then by default ^PX will invoke double underlining. FILES CAN BE SELECTIVELY INCLUDED IN THE FILE DIRECTORY: (Reported by Peter Mierau) Description: If you want to include files with extensions listed in the NOTYPE table in the default directory rather than exclude them, you can patch the undocumented USETYP flag to do so. FONTID.CTL IS AN ASCII FILE THAT CAN BE EDITED USING NONDOCUMENT MODE TO CONTROL VARIOUS DEFAULTS IN ADVANCED PAGE PREVIEW: Description: The FONTID.CTL file that is copied to your hard disk during the installation of Advanced Page Preview is a pure ASCII file that can be edited in nondocument mode. This file allows setting the type of graphics adapter that WS should use (rather than allowing WS to autosense the adapter), the aspect ratio that should be used by APP for displaying text, the type of grid that should be displayed when on is requested (6 per inch, 10 per inch, or 4 per inch) and the page size. CAUTION: Do not allow edit this file in document mode--if you do, WordStar will most likely freeze at your first attempt to preview text. I would strongly suggest that you make a backup of the FONTID.CTL file before attempting to modify values in the file. LANGUAGE TABLES ENTRIES MUST BE INSTALLED FOR ALL MEMBERS OF A FONT FAMILY IF IT IS INSTALLED FOR ANY: (Reported by Jim Gainsley) Description: When using PDFEDIT to change a font, if a symbol set table is added for one variety of the font, it must be defined for all varieties of that font. Failure to do this will cause error messages to be generated at print time and possibly enter the printout. LINE HEIGHT CAN BE SET IN POINTS: (Reported by Ed Zollars) Description: Line height can be set in points by using the fact that WordStar allows mathematical equations to be placed in most dot commands. To set a line height in points, the following dot command is entered: .lh n/72" where n is replaced by an appropriate point value. LINE NUMBERING UNDOCUMENTED FEATURES: (Reported by Gary Gibson) Description: The following excerpt is from a message left by Gary Gibson on the forum about line numbering: 1. The last byte in the INIEDT patch area controls the line numbering defaults. PATCH.LST file's comments describe this, but they don't say that bits 0-6 of this byte control the DEFAULT value for the "spacing". As released, this value is zero. If set non-zero, all documents are line numbered by default UNLESS you turn it off (.l# 0) at the top of a page. Also, this isn't really "spacing", but an indication that for spacing=n, every nth line is numbered, the others just have the bars. The manual also shows only values 0, 1, and 2. Values up to 127 work just fine. 2. You can omit the "style" in the .l# command: .l# p1 and .l# 1 are the same. 3. Unusual "column" values have unusual results, like fractional values or a column value of 32768. MAILLIST CAN USE DEF FILES FROM THE OLD DATASTAR PROGRAM: (Reported by Phil Burnside and Ed Greenberg) Description: MailList can use the "DEF" files from the old DataStar program. You can also use FORMGEN to edit and create DEF files for MailList. DataStar was sold by itself and as part of the old InfoStar database package that MicroPro used to sell. MARGINS IN A DIALOGUE BOX CAN BE SET IN COLUMNS: (Reported by Peter Mierau) Description: If you add an "R" after the setting, WS5 will interpret your setting entered in the margins & tabs dialogue box as being expressed in characters. ONSCREEN JUSTIFICATION CAN BE SUPPRESSED WHILE STILL JUSTIFYING THE OUTPUT BY USING AN ALWAYS FALSE CONDITIONAL COMMAND: (Reported by Ed Zollars, based upon an idea discussed by Mojo Jones and Ed Greenberg for use with WordStar 2000) Description: The fact that WordStar doesn't evaluate conditional commands until print time can be used to suppress the onscreen display of justified text. The following dot commands will result in unjustified text appearing on the screen, but the output being justified. .OJ ON .IF 10#=5 .OJ OFF .EI This solution can also be used to set up onscreen rulers that allow all of the text to be seen on the screen, while actually using a different ruler for printing purposes. In that case, you probably will need to add a ".PF ON" command at the top of the file to force WordStar to reform the paragraphs at print time. "POINT AND SHOOT" WORKS TO CHANGE DIRECTORIES IN HELP LEVEL 4: (Reported by Ed Zollars) Description: If WordStar is working in help level 4, you can change the current directory from the opening menu by moving the cursor into the directory listing (using the down arrow or ^X). If you point at a directory name, WS will log onto that directory. If you point at a filename, WS will open it up to edit. Remember that selecting ".." directory in the directory display will take you back one level in the directory tree. RELATIVE VALUES ARE SUPPORTED IN A NUMBER OF DOT COMMANDS BESIDES THOSE LISTED IN THE MANUAL: (Reported by Gary Gibson) Description: You can use a "+" or "-" value for a number of dot commands besides the left margin and right margin dot commands that are documented. Specifically, you can change the line height by using "+" and "-" to change it relative to the last setting. SPELL CHECKS PERFORMED ON NONDOCUMENT FILES WILL CHECK DOT COMMANDS: (Reported by Robert Vannatta) Description: If you run the spelling check while in non-document mode, text in dot commands will be spell-checked. UNDOCUMENTED KEYS ON THE OPENING MENU: (Reported by Gary Gibson): Description: Although not listed on the menu, the H, W and Z keys will have certain affects when the Opening Menu is displayed. "H" will take you directly to the change help level screen (the equivalent of pressing "JJ" using the officially listed commands). Pressing W or Z will cause the file directory to scroll in the appropriate direction without having to hold down the control key. VERSION 5.0 PRINTER CAN BE USED WITH VERSION 5.5 WITH CERTAIN LIMITATIONS: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Description: The following is from a message posted by James Burton on the forum: Can you use a WordStar 5.0 Printer Definition File (PDF) with WordStar 5.5? Yes, although there are limitations. First, you can't use the Auto Leading feature (.LH A) with these PDFs. Second, you can't use WordStar 5.5 PDFEDIT to edit them; the PDF format has changed slightly to accommodate the addition of previewed graphics. ----- 976. Any teacher that can be replaced by a computer, deserves to be. -- David Thornburg --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 21:54:24 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:54:24 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200709042254.24446.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 04 September 2007 22:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, jim wrote: > > I have one of the card reader units, but nothing else. > > If it's like the one that I have, and/or the one that I used briefly in > about 1970, it is 40 column, using every other column of a standard IBM > card, making the "port-a-punch" cards ideal for it. > > (If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) Hollerith or those smaller ones that came along a bit later? :-) Been a long time since I've seen one of any variety, now that you mention it, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 22:41:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:41:25 -0500 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/4/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 > > I've no direct experience with these, but have heard of "GAL" chips, sort of > like "PAL" chips is about all that comes to mind offhand. GALs and PALs are similar devices, with a few key differences... PALs are bipolar devices, and are programmable once. GALs are made of newer technologies, like FLASH or EAROMs, thus can be erased and reprogrammed a number of times. PALs come in pre-coded flavors like 10L6 or 16H2, meaning 10 inputs with 6 low-true outputs or 16 inputs and 2 high-true outputs. With PALs, you took a fistful of your equations, then you, yourself, picked a part in which the equations would fit. To make a complex product, you might have 6 or 8 or 10 flavors of PALs in the same design. GALs are "Generic Arrayed Logic", thus are not pre-configured for certain geometries. A small part would routinely be described as a 16V8, meaning _up to_ 16 inputs and _up to_ 8 outputs, with Versatile choice of high true or low true for the outputs (also there were "registered" PALs like the 16R4 with flip-flops on the outputs for clocking or latching - GAL outputs are also optionally "registered"). In the early 1980s, PALs were popular because one PAL could replace a dozen TTL parts. GALs became popular because you only had to stock one type of 18-pin part, one type of 20-pin part, one type of 24-pin part, etc., rather than well over a dozen non-interchangable, non-reprogrammable parts. Eventually, even GALs were too simplistic for most professional product designs, but they are still popular with hobby projects - look at the Spare Time Gizmos line to see how easy it is to make GAL-based projects. GALs are still readily available for $1 or less. I don't think they've made PALs in a large number of years (not that there aren't still millions of loose parts on the resale market). Hope that illuminates more than obscures, -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 4 23:23:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 21:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709042254.24446.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> <200709042254.24446.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070904212117.C51118@shell.lmi.net> > > (If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Hollerith or those smaller ones that came along a bit later? :-) The ones with circuit traces and components on them, and a 62 position .1" edge connector near the end with the bracket. > Been a long time since I've seen one of any variety, now that you mention it, > though. At the college, they still have a few odds and ends of forms printed on what used to be "Hollerith" cards. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 23:56:28 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:56:28 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 04 September 2007 23:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hope that illuminates more than obscures, Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of XT-class machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there will ever be a use for them. GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be useful for all sorts of things. I should probably seek out some data on these parts, or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific numbers? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 23:57:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:57:57 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070904212117.C51118@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <200709042254.24446.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070904212117.C51118@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200709050057.57310.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 00:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > (If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) > > On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Hollerith or those smaller ones that came along a bit later? :-) > > The ones with circuit traces and components on them, and a 62 position .1" > edge connector near the end with the bracket. Aw, now see if you'd stuck "peecee" in there someplace I would've interpreted it that way... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 5 00:23:29 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:23:29 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DE3D51.4010002@msm.umr.edu> Fred Cisin wrote: >On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, jim wrote: > > >>I have one of the card reader units, but nothing else. >> >> > >If it's like the one that I have, and/or the one that I used briefly in >about 1970, it is 40 column, using every other column of a standard IBM >card, making the "port-a-punch" cards ideal for it. > >(If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) > > > We could punch the cards on a standard keypunch, though I never did when I was in school with an operational unit. I didn't peer inside the card unit I have to see what the spacing was. It reads whatever it does from the card without moving the card, via static means. YOu slide in the card, and leave it, then "read" it via whatever means from the calculator keyboard, but the card is sensed in place. Again as you mention and I observed a couple of weeks ago, there are those who have no idea what the use of cards are, nor have they seen one punched, or a working device to do so. It was a lot of fun to punch some cards for the children on my 129 keypunch. Wish I had a working IBM reader to read them on, but I'll have to settle for the M1000 Documation, and Hercules. And no, these are the paper hollerith cards, not the ones with the 62 pin edge connectors :-) Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 00:35:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:35:12 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org>, <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <46DDDDA0.8224.17949046@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 22:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > GALs and PALs are similar devices, with a few key differences... PALs > are bipolar devices, and are programmable once. GALs are made of > newer technologies, like FLASH or EAROMs, thus can be erased and > reprogrammed a number of times. ...and all of the relatives, such as EPLD and PEEL. Out of vogue today, but really cool when they first came out--and a foreshadowing of FPGAs and CPLD. Still can be very handy for fitting a medium- hairy functionality into a 20-pin DIP. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 00:40:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:40:39 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DE3D51.4010002@msm.umr.edu> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com>, <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net>, <46DE3D51.4010002@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46DDDEE7.25424.17998B13@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 22:23, jim wrote: > And no, these are the paper hollerith cards, not the ones with the 62 > pin edge connectors :-) There was a paper/mylar-based capacitive ROM used for high-speed applications on some 60's computers. Basically, you did the same thing--punched holes where you wanted 1's. Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Sep 4 21:36:41 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac development environments Message-ID: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Hi all -- I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the development itself on a IIfx. In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying around (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk network to keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). Thanks for any suggestions... - Josh From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Sep 4 22:01:50 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 04:01:50 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Seriously though.a lecture plus demo of programming (next performance 3:30) Might enhance things a bit. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 04 September 2007 20:46 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? > That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. > Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. > Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. > Two security guys dragging me out of the building. > The visitors would love that!! > > Rod Well if you have Hard Drives Dancing to music from the *DISCO* panel lights, I am sure you would have I nice padded cell waiting for you as well. Ben Alias Woodelf PS.With Broadcast Band Valve Radio Blasting away the DISCO music from the CPU,I guess the security just don't like music. :) From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Sep 5 01:39:53 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 07:39:53 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DDDEE7.25424.17998B13@cclist.sydex.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> , <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net>, <46DE3D51.4010002@msm.umr.edu> <46DDDEE7.25424.17998B13@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1188974393.20635.5.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 22:40 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There was a paper/mylar-based capacitive ROM used for high-speed > applications on some 60's computers. Basically, you did the same > thing--punched holes where you wanted 1's. Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but see http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/photos/ for an example of a "CCROS" card. If you go to the 360/30 Links page, there are some IBM papers on how these things work. Yes, you punch these on a standard punch; this is how microcode updates or patches were done. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 02:02:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:02:40 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <1188974393.20635.5.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com>, <46DDDEE7.25424.17998B13@cclist.sydex.com>, <1188974393.20635.5.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <46DDF220.17331.17E4A33E@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 7:39, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but see > http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/photos/ for an example of a "CCROS" card. There was a book in the 60's about user microprogramming various S/360 mainframes and their cousins. IIRC, the 360/30 was a great candidate because of the easily-created ROS. The Model 40 wasn't as good a candidate because it used magnetic technology (core of some kind?) ROS. The Spectra 70 was another great candidate for user microprogramming, but I don't recall the technology used for the microprogram memeory. The CDC Star-1B used "paper' ROS for its microcode. IIRC, crashes because of errors were very common. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 5 02:04:38 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 03:04:38 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac development environments References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Message-ID: <005a01c7ef8b$0671c380$1300a8c0@game> Think Pascal should work too and generate 68000 code (atleast version 2.0 does). TZ From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 02:57:21 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:57:21 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: Also.... Masscomp, when they were absorbed into Concurrent Computer Corperation, temporally manufactured Masscomp Multibus systems at CCUR's re-manufacturing (repair) facility in Cork but only during the inital takeover period. This was because most of the assembly staff in the Masscomp USA (Westford) plant resigned, suprisingly when they refused to relocate to Detroit which was the location of the manufacturing plant for CCUR. Andy. On 03/09/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > DEC Did indeed make systems in Ireland. There where two plants one in > Galway and something else at Clonmel > I went to Galway loads of times. It was a big FA&T operation assembling > 11/34's, 11/70's etc. VAX I suppose later. I think Clonmel was a > software duplicating and packing operation for Europe. There was also a > plant at Ayr in Scotland. > The Scottish plant was called Silicon Glen and the Irish one Silicon > Bog. > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes > Sent: 02 September 2007 23:35 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: British Computers > > > > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there > >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > > Ireland. > > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland > > Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. > > > > > > From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 02:57:21 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:57:21 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: Also.... Masscomp, when they were absorbed into Concurrent Computer Corperation, temporally manufactured Masscomp Multibus systems at CCUR's re-manufacturing (repair) facility in Cork but only during the inital takeover period. This was because most of the assembly staff in the Masscomp USA (Westford) plant resigned, suprisingly when they refused to relocate to Detroit which was the location of the manufacturing plant for CCUR. Andy. On 03/09/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > DEC Did indeed make systems in Ireland. There where two plants one in > Galway and something else at Clonmel > I went to Galway loads of times. It was a big FA&T operation assembling > 11/34's, 11/70's etc. VAX I suppose later. I think Clonmel was a > software duplicating and packing operation for Europe. There was also a > plant at Ayr in Scotland. > The Scottish plant was called Silicon Glen and the Irish one Silicon > Bog. > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes > Sent: 02 September 2007 23:35 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: British Computers > > > > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there > >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > > Ireland. > > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland > > Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. > > > > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 5 05:58:24 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:58:24 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:04:38 EDT." <005a01c7ef8b$0671c380$1300a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200709051058.l85AwONv021392@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Teo Zenios" wrote: >Think Pascal should work too and generate 68000 code (atleast version 2.0 >does). Back in the day, "Think C" was the hot setup. -brad From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Sep 5 06:01:37 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 12:01:37 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> References: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> Message-ID: <20070905110136.GA28475@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 01:57:12PM +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Several multinationals had or have a presence in Ireland ... > > Many of these built computers or peripherals here for the European market. > However, it is pretty much the same as equipment thats found everywhere else > in the world. I am not aware of anything that could be regarded as being > uniquely Irish in the same way that for example Acorn kit could be regarded > as being British. I'd be inclined to count the Mentec PDP-11s, even though they didn't create them to start with. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life -- Samuel Johnson From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 06:55:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:55:12 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2007, at 12:56 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of > XT-class > machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there will > ever be a > use for them. GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be > useful for > all sorts of things. I should probably seek out some data on these > parts, > or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific numbers? Datasheets for these parts aren't difficult to come by. Despite all the hype about them having been replaced by FPGAs and CPLDs, they are still a current product line from a few different manufacturers (Cypress and Atmel come to mind) and are available from most of the major distributors. The most popular ones seem to be the 16V8 and 22V10 (GAL16V8 and GAL22V10). It's worth noting that some CPLD families are more-or-less direct implementations of common PAL architectures. A Xilinx XC9536 CPLD, for example, is very similar to two of what might have been called PAL36V18. This comes in very handy if you're experienced with PAL design and want to move into higher-density devices. The PALs that you have a pulls are likely useless because they're one-time programmable. GALs and PALCE devices are electrically- eraseable, and possibly some others, but not straight PALs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 5 07:03:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:03:12 -0600 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0700. <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <46DE1639.6080400 at msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > two, or three, or six...) [...] In 1988 I was a teaching assistant for the Pascal course at the University of Utah. We used Mac classics and "Lightspeed Pascal"; I found it to be a fairly decent programming environment for the Mac. It compiled everything in memory IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Sep 5 07:07:50 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:07:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <20070905110136.GA28475@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> <20070905110136.GA28475@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070905124610.S38778@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, David Cantrell wrote: > On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 01:57:12PM +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> Several multinationals had or have a presence in Ireland ... >> >> Many of these built computers or peripherals here for the European market. >> However, it is pretty much the same as equipment thats found everywhere else >> in the world. I am not aware of anything that could be regarded as being >> uniquely Irish in the same way that for example Acorn kit could be regarded >> as being British. > > I'd be inclined to count the Mentec PDP-11s, even though they didn't > create them to start with. In terms of British minis there were at British Gas in Leeds (England) in the 80s a system made by Cossor Electronics (also made scopes and valve radios etc) that was based around a TMS9900, finished in a very fetching orange with flicky-switches operator panel. It had Pertec disk drives each with a separate 19" 2U 'formatter' unit (controller?), remote graphics heads that had some kind of controller (kb in, and RGB out to big 20 inch or so CCTV-style monitors) hooked-up to the CPU by extended serial links. It also had banks and banks of modems, and operated in some sort of dual config with hardware watchdogs. It performed 'grid control' for the distribution of gas in the North East of England, via UHF radio links to inhouse designed (hw+sw) telemetry 'outstations' that could open and close valves, control compressors etc, and report back temp, pressure and so on. When I arrived at British Gas as a trainee it was sat uncoupled in the corner of the workshop, and had been replaced by a VAXserver cluster with satellite VS2000 nodes as workstations. I used to get in early to hook-up the Cossor and play around with it. It made a real racket as the bearings were gone in a Pertec drive, and so my elders and betters would throw tools at me on arrival until I powered it all down! Never seen or heard of a Cossor computer since, but I did hear at the time (early 90s) that Heathrow airport had the same systems still in use. This has also just reminded me of another very cool device we had at BG. A thing called a 'Radac' that was essentially a metal drum a bit smaller than a can of coke. With tracks of mag tape inside, a motor attached to the outside, and a mechanical selector to move the heads. These were part of alarm systems that had a mechanical dialler, and would dial you up if at a remote radio site a burglar was detected, fire alarm went off, or backup genny kicked in etc. You'd get a call with "ALARM! GARROWBY HILL! FIRE!" or something... I wish I'd hung on to some Radacs when the system was replaced! Andrew From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 5 07:32:29 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 05:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Sep 5, 7 06:03:12 am" Message-ID: <200709051232.l85CWT1P012436@floodgap.com> > > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > > two, or three, or six...) [...] > > In 1988 I was a teaching assistant for the Pascal course at the > University of Utah. We used Mac classics and "Lightspeed Pascal"; I > found it to be a fairly decent programming environment for the Mac. > It compiled everything in memory IIRC. I myself (if you feel like being a little perverse) like MacMETH: http://www.sysecol.ethz.ch/RAMSES/MacMETH.html This is a free, small, very fast Modula-2 development environment which I've used for quick one-offs. The apps will even run under Classic (although not on an Intel Mac), but have extremely small system requirements; with the right coding, you can squeeze them into 128K Macs running System 1.1! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Sep 5 07:45:52 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 08:45:52 -0400 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) Message-ID: <46DE6CC002000037000108B9@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Chris M asks: > if it's practical to get to Boston from NYC by train? The northeast corridor is the best train service in the US between Boston/NYC/ Washington downtowns and a number of the suburbs. > Amtrak is just to expensive (~120$ round trip). Having to go up and down between downtown Washington and NYC for work, Amtrak is way too convenient compared to airline travel. There's no friggin way I'm ever gonna sit on a runway at LaGuardia for hours again. For getting between NYC/Boston/Washington very very cheaply, google up "chinatown bus". Most make some stops in the Bronx, the burbs, etc. The bus stops are frequently just people sitting on their luggage in the streets, and the operations may seem a little shady, but a lot of people on a budget go this way. Tim. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Sep 5 03:51:26 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:51:26 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA8E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Now for something a bit more serious. I have been building up my collection of DEC equipment. The vast majority of it works at least to a level where it passes the diagnostics. DEC equipment was always well built. The OEM market installed DEC equipment in all kinds of bad environments. As the equipment is robust you can be fairly heavy on the cleaning side. The yellowing on VT series cases responds to a Brillo Pad No, it does not scratch it for the same reason they use wire wool and turpentine on antique furniture On LK series keyboards you can remove the key caps put then in a bucket and zap with a power washer. No, the letters will not come off they are two part moulded. The letter is part of the plastic. Whilst I don't travel much these days. (Broadband means I can get to a customers system in seconds) I must make an effort to come up to BP. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 05 September 2007 01:24 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? > That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. > Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. > Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. > Two security guys dragging me out of the building. > The visitors would love that!! Heh :-) Being as hands-on as possible is still one of our primary goals - although there's always going to be caveats on what's left running, or what level of supervision any given system has of course, but for the majority of machines we actively encourage people to sit down and have a play. The best will in the world probably isn't going to keep this stuff operational much beyond a few decades, and I'm not sure if anyone really knows what's going to happen to the plastics a few more decades beyond that; whilst we have a duty to store inactive systems for future generations, it also seems wise to let people extract maximum enjoyment out of these systems now whilst they still can... cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 08:36:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:36:12 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <46DEB0CC.10008@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) > Chris M wrote: > >> Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the first machine to >> run AIX the IBM/RT's? Googling... > It was called AIX, but it doesn't have much in common with the later > AIX. The RT-AIX was a more or less straight port of some 4BSD to the RT. > The later AIX is an IBM reimplementation of UNIX. (AFAIK) Nope. The RT AIX is the predecessor of the current AIX. You're thinking of AOS, which was a port of 4.3BSD (or was it 4.2BSD?). Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 5 08:42:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:42:26 -0500 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) References: <884208.81482.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09b301c7efc2$9b6c04f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Evan wrote... >> Being pricey doesn't make it impractical. Just >> makes you cheap. Careful... > Right. Coming from the person who wants to be driven > across the fruited plain to VCF whatever, but for some > strange reason using his vehicle in never an option. Offbase. Can it Chris. This should have been sent offlist. Also, perhaps I'm missing something, but just how is a train to boston considered on-topic? Jay From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 08:46:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:46:51 -0400 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <43827.65.126.154.6.1188929145.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <43827.65.126.154.6.1188929145.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <46DEB34B.9080409@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Nor is the drive so bad. Don't take 95 (the Bronx is a terrible ride); > instead take Tappan Zee, to the Westchester parkways, to 91, to 84, to 90 > (Mass Pike) which takes you right to Cambridge. Four hours. You don't need to take 91. Just take the Taconic to 84 East to 90 East. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 08:51:39 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:51:39 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DEB46B.7090705@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> POWER5 and POWER6 have evolved quite a bit from where POWER4 was. IBM >> made a lot more money selling POWER processors, systems, and consulting >> to go with it, than they ever did with selling PPC chips to apple. IBM >> was dragging their feet with PPC features on the G5 (and whatever would >> have been G6), which is why Apple abandoned them; if IBM was making >> enough money from Apple on their G5s, I'm sure that they would have >> payed more attention to what Apple wanted (like low-power noteboot >> CPUs). > > Looking back, the POWER lines for Apple were starting to be more of a > nuisance for IBM. I do not think anyone was crying in Fishkill when > the news came down about the Mac architecture change. I can verify that no-one in Fishkill gave a damn. I was onsite when the announcement came. Peace... Sridhar From trag at io.com Wed Sep 5 08:56:09 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:56:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 8k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <200709051324.l85DO6hg008801@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709051324.l85DO6hg008801@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <40181.207.71.28.21.1189000569.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Message: 16 > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0700 > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: 68k Mac development environments > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a > Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a > development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm > flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so > I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the > development itself on a IIfx. > You might look around for a copy of Think C 5.x by Symantec (It's on 4 floppies). It had a great reputation in its day and some of the learning books used examples which were based on Think C's IDE. Later, they based their examples on Codewarrior, but Codewarrior arose around the time of the PPC era, so Think C is probably the better choice. I'm pretty sure that early Codewarrior included the ability to compile for 68000, but I'm not certain and if you're developing on the IIfx, Codewarrior might be a bit cycle hungry. Jeff Walther From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Sep 5 09:15:16 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:15:16 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? Message-ID: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" ports looked like. Thanks! Brian From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 09:21:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:21:35 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <46DEBB6F.8060504@gmail.com> Brian Wheeler wrote: > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > ports looked like. Try Minix or ELKS. I don't know if either of them could be considered "UNIX Ports" specifically, but I've used both and they work well enough. Peace... Sridhar From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 09:47:03 2007 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:47:03 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Have you seen Coherent ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherent_%28operating_system%29 Paco On 9/5/07, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > ports looked like. > > Thanks! > Brian > > > From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Sep 5 09:49:45 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:49:45 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1189003785.24579.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 16:47 +0200, Paco Linux wrote: > Have you seen Coherent ? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherent_%28operating_system%29 > I completely forgot about them... thanks! Brian > Paco > > On 9/5/07, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > > ports looked like. > > > > Thanks! > > Brian > > > > > > From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 09:49:54 2007 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:49:54 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Also, you can look the source of ultrix ftp://ifctfvax.harhan.org/pub/UNIX/thirdparty/Ultrix-32/sources/ (not x86 code, vax and mips code) Paco On 9/5/07, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > ports looked like. > > Thanks! > Brian > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Sep 5 10:11:02 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:11:02 -0500 Subject: 8k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <200709051448.l85EmIHF010759@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709051448.l85EmIHF010759@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 9:48 -0500 9/5/07, Trag wrote: > Later, they based >their examples on Codewarrior, but Codewarrior arose around the time of >the PPC era, so Think C is probably the better choice. I'm pretty sure >that early Codewarrior included the ability to compile for 68000, but I'm >not certain and if you're developing on the IIfx, Codewarrior might be a >bit cycle hungry. I can pretty much confirm this. CodeWarrior is a thing of beauty, but it's a thing of beauty with a substantial disk footprint. 411 MB for a full install, literally thousands of files. It seems fast on my PB3400, but I don't think that much speaks to its usability on a IIfx. Turbo Pascal rocks on the Mac Plus, FWIW; I'd expect Turbo C to be roughly as good but don't know from experience. MPW (Macintosh Programmer's Workshop?) hasn't been mentioned yet; that was the Apple-supported environment, but rarely held up as a standard of usability. http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/ Also in the "you should know about" category is "Inside Macintosh", the Apple manual set for how to write Mac Applications, of which the oft-quoted description is "(n > 10) volumes, to understand the content of any one of which you have to have already read the other (n-1)". I think at least some of the content is available at http://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos8/mac8.html Good luck! -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Sep 5 10:23:05 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:23:05 -0500 Subject: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector In-Reply-To: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, spotted in the San Antonio Goodwill Computerworks: A Mac 512k, but with a minor difference. On the back side, above where the power switch normally is and far away from the rest of the connectors, is a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac "SCSI" connectors on Mac Plus and other machines. I did not disassemble or power up the machine (no KB or Mouse in evidence), so I don't know what it is. Don't know whether they'll pak/n/ship. They were asking $5 for the machine. No connection. Let me know (off list for quicker response) if you want me to go back for it and work on boxes and postage for you. Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors is, and wanted to get this out fast in case anyone wants it. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 5 10:32:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:32:21 -0700 Subject: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 10:23 AM -0500 9/5/07, Mark Tapley wrote: >All, > spotted in the San Antonio Goodwill Computerworks: > > A Mac 512k, but with a minor difference. On the back side, >above where the power switch normally is and far away from the rest >of the connectors, is a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac >"SCSI" connectors on Mac Plus and other machines. I did not >disassemble or power up the machine (no KB or Mouse in evidence), so >I don't know what it is. Might very well be a SCSI connector. My Mac 512k has SCSI added. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Sep 5 10:33:54 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:33:54 -0500 Subject: MAC emulation? Message-ID: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and a MIDI interface? --tom From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:48:33 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:48:33 -0400 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <09b301c7efc2$9b6c04f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <884208.81482.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <09b301c7efc2$9b6c04f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: > Also, perhaps I'm missing something, but just how is a train to boston > considered on-topic? To get the the MIT flea, held every month during the warm parts of the year. You can still find some good junk there. Lots of just-on-topic networking and workstation stuff shows up there. Occasionally a gem show up, like last month's DEC logic trainer, on a Lisa earlier in the year. Also lots of interesting people. The man who was the last head of the whole VAX thing at DEC is a regular. And if you are REALLY good at taking the train, it will get you RIGHT to the show! -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:49:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:49:50 -0500 Subject: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Mark Tapley wrote: > All, > spotted in the San Antonio Goodwill Computerworks: > > A Mac 512k, but with a minor difference. On the back side, > above where the power switch normally is and far away from the rest > of the connectors, is a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac > "SCSI" connectors on Mac Plus and other machines. I did not > disassemble or power up the machine (no KB or Mouse in evidence), so > I don't know what it is. Could be SCSI. I have one myself - it was one of the 512K Macs my mother used in the mid 1980s for her typing and typesetting shop. I upgraded that one to a 512Ke (double-sided floppies and replacement ROMs), then installed a "Dove Snap" 512K and SCSI expansion. You removed the 512K mobo, then positioned the Dove Snap over the right part of the mobo, then pressed down with a *large* amount of force to "snap" the expansion board connectors right over the legs of chips on the mobo. Think of a bunch of 5mm-tall Gompers Clips and you aren't too far off. I don't recall what pins were tapped, but it was certainly all the necessary signals from the memory field to refresh another 512K. There must have been some unused memory select on a 74LS138 or something to enable the new memory, and probably the 5380 SCSI chip. The connector for this one was on the back of the battery door - you removed the factory battery door, threaded a 24-pin cable through the back of the battery compartment, then plugged it into the Dove Snap before reassembling the case. In effect, the Dove Snap turned her 512Ke into a Mac Plus, with DE9 serial/printer connectors. She was using Farallon PhoneNet, with a networked Apple LaserWriter, so the lack of DIN serial/network didn't matter. This was all in the 1985-1989 timeframe - I was happy to be her in-house Mac hardware dude, especially since it meant that I had a key and could work on papers after hours with, in effect, a personal laser printer. If you think back to those days, that was a nice perk. (We also used to go over and play NetTrek on her collection of 512Kes and Pluses and SEs, but the laser printer was what really did it for me). > Don't know whether they'll pak/n/ship. They were asking $5 > for the machine. If you don't already have a 512K machine, that certainly sounds cheap. Keyboards and mice shouldn't be hard to find. > Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors > is, and wanted to get this out fast in case anyone wants it. Mac SCSI is a DB25F - it's one of those times when it _really_ is a DB connector. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:52:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:52:34 -0500 Subject: 8k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: References: <200709051448.l85EmIHF010759@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Mark Tapley wrote: > Also in the "you should know about" category is "Inside Macintosh", > the Apple manual set for how to write Mac Applications, of which the > oft-quoted description is "(n > 10) volumes, to understand the > content of any one of which you have to have already read the other > (n-1)". There's a set of those at a downtown bookstore in Madison, WI, but the individual volumes are priced at more than a few dollars each. I don't know the exact total, but I would suspect that you'd need to show up with between $80-$120 to walk away with the 8-10 volumes. They are moving soon, so perhaps they'd bargain... -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 5 10:47:30 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac "SCSI" connectors on > Mac Plus and other machines. [...] > Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors is, and > wanted to get this out fast in case anyone wants it. The 25-pin size - the one used for the MAC SCSI you refer to, the one called for by the mechanical portion of the RS-232 spec, the one used for peecee parallel ports - is DB. Using pin count for that same pin spacing, the table is DA=15, DB=25, DC=39 (I think), DD=50 (three rows), DE=9. The DE shell is also used in a 15-pin variant ("VGA"), but the pins are spaced substantially closer than in the DE-9. DA is probably best known for peecee joystick connectors, but it also got used for AUI Ethernet back in the 10base5 days, before even 10base2, much less 10baseT. DC doesn't get used much in my experience; I think I have a few SBus cards that use it for the fat end of their octopus cables. DD was used by Sun for SCSI back in the Sun-2 and Sun-3 era, and also got used for IPI disks. DE is probably best known for peecee serial ports and "VGA" video (a lot of people don't realize the shell size is the same for those two), but I've seen it used for other things, such as Sun-3 monochrome video. I'm sure each size has plenty of other uses I know nothing about, too. I don't know why they are out of order. I speculate that someone designed DA through DD, never expecting D-shell to get used for anything under 15 pins, then had to tack on the 9-pin size later. (Arguably they should have called it D@, but that would probably have been too geeky. :) There exist D-shell connectors of other sizes, like the NeXT "black" hardware video connector (which held something like 19 pins). I don't know whether they have names in the DA..DE series; I suspect they have no standard names because they're not standard sizes. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 11:11:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:11:59 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:15, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > ports looked like. If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 11:40:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:40:07 -0700 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DE7977.16908.19F54DC1@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 11:47, der Mouse wrote: > DC doesn't get used much in my experience; I think I have a few SBus > cards that use it for the fat end of their octopus cables. 37-pin External floppy drive connectors on PC and PS/2. Some SCSI cards (e.g. the Iomega Bernoulli PC version) also used them. There's also a 68-pin 3-row "high-density" version used on Overland and Chi Pertec 9-track adapters. There's also a "thicker" 50-pin 3-row (not HD) connector used for the external connector for some PC-based QIC- 02 and QIC-36 controllers (Wangtek, I think). There were also non-standard sizes, such as the 19-pin D connector used for Atari ST ACSI connections. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 11:53:15 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:53:15 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <51ea77730709050953l196d9b78g623491604dd7e910@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: > the Sun-2 and Sun-3 era, and also got used for IPI disks. DE is > probably best known for peecee serial ports and "VGA" video (a lot of How about CGA/EGA video on the PC, or Atari/CBM game controller ports? Or is that a different shell size? And there's this non-standard serial connector on the Grid Compass: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/522484668/in/set-72157600033400926/ From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 11:55:07 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 12:55:07 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0709050955g620d004bmf8989b5a15f20712@mail.gmail.com> Lesee, there's also VENIX/86 and VENIX/286. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 11:59:14 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:59:14 -0500 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) Message-ID: On 9/4/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 04 September 2007 23:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Hope that illuminates more than obscures, > > Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of XT-class > machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there will ever be a > use for them. Indeed. You might check for "PALCE" - those are CMOS PALs that _can_ be reprogrammed. Bipolar PALs by MMI and other vendors are strictly OTP. You _could_ poke around the PAL with a signal generator and a logic analyzer/logic probe/VOM/O-scope and divine the internal programming, but, honestly, blown PALs are rarely useful out of their original context. The only use _I_ have ever had for them is a pattern to be able to make modifications to an existing device - I've started with PALs for, say, an Amiga 3000, then burned a faster GAL to get rid of video jitter - I was partially successful. I've never tried to take a PAL out of a circuit and re-use it in a new circuit. > GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be useful for > all sorts of things. Indeed they are. Bob Armstrong is a heavy user of GALs for the Spare Time Gizmos line of hobby products. In the case of the Elf 2000, for example, you can change the logic equations yourself (he provides the source) and change the memory and/or I/O map - all of the select logic goes through a GAL, so the memory map is mutable. If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or 24-pin GAL can replace several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of being able to make changes later that don't involve cutting traces and adding blue wires. You lose the ability to poke around in the middle of select circuits, and to make substantial changes, but it all depends on what your goals for the project are if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not. You do have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not all hobbyists have them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob does, you should consider selling programmed parts for those that can't burn their own. > I should probably seek out some data on these parts, > or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific numbers? The two most common parts I've worked with are the 18-pin Lattice GAL 16V8 and the 24-pin Lattice GAL 22V10. There's also a 22-pin GAL 20V8, and I do have a few pull, but I've never run into a hobby project that uses them. I would expect to pay $1.25 for small quantities of 16V8s and up to $3.50 for small quantities of 22V10s. Bargains can be had, but to be honest, when I see 22V10s for under $2.00 each, I tend to buy a few. They aren't as easy to find cheaply as 16V8s. One type of occasional bargain are surplussed already-programmed parts. Just throw them in your programmer, erase them, then you are ready to go with only a couple of burn cycles ticked off their lifetime. AMD also makes (made?) the PALCE line of PLDs. They are pin compatible with GALs, and should program in the same programmer as a GAL. I do not know if there are any substantial technical advantages of PALCEs over GALs or not. In general, for non-modern circuits, a GAL is going to be fast compared to layer after layer of TTL. For example, 15ns GALs are not particularly fast or expensive. 15ns would be a problem for a multi-gate address select circuit for, say, a 6502. Fortunately, with 1MHz and 8Mhz designs and such, speed really isn't a factor, but it's nice to know how much slack you have in your design. You can start here for technical details... http://www.latticesemi.com/products/cpldspld/gal.cfm -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 12:14:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:14:54 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever Well once Intel gets the bugs out of the 80286 I am sure M$ will get the real programs like BASIC for Xenix. :) Did not Xenix follow the Small 8086 model - 64K data & 64K code? > Cheers, > Chuck Ben alias woodelf. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 5 12:11:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:11:04 +0100 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: > Using pin count for that same pin spacing, the table is DA=15, DB=25, > DC=39 (I think), DD=50 (three rows), DE=9. The DE shell is also used > in a 15-pin variant ("VGA"), but the pins are spaced substantially > closer than in the DE-9. DA is probably best known for peecee joystick > connectors, but it also got used for AUI Ethernet back in the 10base5 > days, before even 10base2, much less 10baseT. I tend to think of the shell sizes in terms of approximate finger widths as it's easier to relate to people compared to the semi-random Dx ordering :-) Some NCD X Terminals had a DA26 connector - 3 rows of pins in a 'A'-sized (two-finger ;-) shell. I think some Cisco gear used to use the same connector. Plus of course there are some weird designs out there in D-shells with a variety of pin sizes - e.g. 13W3 connectors for Sun/SGI video, and ISTR HP using something similar but with a smaller (DA?) shell size. (Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 on an DE-sized shell?) There's some other weird stuff about too which uses D-type shells with round pins, but a much smaller form-factor (shell and pin diameters). I was going to give an e.g. but although I can picture such a line of machines in my head, my brain's refusing to put a name to them right now! I'm not sure if they ever got a D-type designation... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 12:28:02 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:28:02 -0600 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Indeed they are. Bob Armstrong is a heavy user of GALs for the Spare > Time Gizmos line of hobby products. In the case of the Elf 2000, for > example, you can change the logic equations yourself (he provides the > source) and change the memory and/or I/O map - all of the select logic > goes through a GAL, so the memory map is mutable. Good digital products for sale. I just question his audio amp just because the better quality parts are more $$$. > If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or 24-pin GAL can replace > several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of being able to make > changes later that don't involve cutting traces and adding blue wires. > You lose the ability to poke around in the middle of select circuits, > and to make substantial changes, but it all depends on what your goals > for the project are if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not. You do > have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not all hobbyists have > them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob does, you should > consider selling programmed parts for those that can't burn their own. That is the downside , the programmer for them. I suspect 18 pin GAL is a typo. They come in 20 and 24(thin) pin packages. > -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:27:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <46DE1590.3070707@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Battle wrote: > Today I received an email from a gentleman in > possession of an AT&T > PC6300, wanting to know if I wanted it for the cost > of shipping. I'm > not interested in collecting PCs, so I said I'd pass > it on to the list. > > Here is his description of the machine: > > (start of quote) > > As the original purchaser, I am seeking a new home > for a pristine 1985 > Personal Computer with peripherals, software, and > original > documentation. All were functioning perfectly in > February 1998, when > replaced and stored. > > All items are in their original boxes: > AT&T PC6300 with 256KB RAM and two 5-1/4" floppy > drives, Color Monitor, > Keyboard, Mouse, and Citizen MSP-15 dot matrix > printer with 8-1/2x11 and > 11x15 tractor feed paper. Being that *presumably* it has color graphics capability, someone should grab it. They're not that easy to come by. > As you know, this PC was the state of the art > technology in 1985 and the > best and fastest of the pre-"Windows" operating > system platforms. It is > an excellent representation depicting the end of the > Dot Matrix and DOS > eras. I'm not so sure about SOTA, but an interesting machine IMHO. May take a number of peecee style expansion cards (but DON'T quote me on that). Uses an 8086 instead of the typical 8088. Uses a passive-backplane motherboard. A fun machine to tinker around w/if you ask me. Oh, you didn't ask me...well then BUZZ OFF! LOL LOL Keep up the good work Jimbo ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 12:33:34 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:33:34 -0700 Subject: 8k Mac development environments Message-ID: <46DEE86E.9080104@bitsavers.org> > There's a set of those at a downtown bookstore The entire set was distributed as PDF's on a CD. I wouldn't bother with the dead tree version. There was also an overview volume added in the later versions. and > MPW (Macintosh Programmer's Workshop?) hasn't been mentioned yet; > that was the Apple-supported environment, but rarely held up as a > standard of usability. We used it for all system development 'til the switch to OSX. Think of what the Mac would have been with a command line interface, and you have MPW. Code management (projector) was OK, but had some nasty constraints when building big projects. The big problem with all the 68K programming environments for the Mac is A5 relative addressing, creating a segmented 64K environment on a machine that originally had a flat address space. That was the big thing we changed on PPC machines. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:34:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <09b301c7efc2$9b6c04f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <532336.5351.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Being that Boston is somewhat of a *hub* as far as vintage shows go, I didn't think it terrible to ask some advice about getting there. I'll suffer a resulting rebuke if I have to, but I really don't think it was all that OT. I could stand to be corrected though. I just wish people who have no business at all answering my posts, and if they choose to, would at least do so w/o the usual odious inhospitable mannerisms. But I guess it's asking too much for some to be polite. --- Jay West wrote: > Evan wrote... > >> Being pricey doesn't make it impractical. Just > >> makes you cheap. > Careful... > > > Right. Coming from the person who wants to be > driven > > across the fruited plain to VCF whatever, but for > some > > strange reason using his vehicle in never an > option. > Offbase. Can it Chris. This should have been sent > offlist. > > Also, perhaps I'm missing something, but just how is > a train to boston > considered on-topic? > > Jay > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:36:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <46DEB34B.9080409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <37666.58377.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Nor is the drive so bad. Don't take 95 (the Bronx > is a terrible ride); > > instead take Tappan Zee, to the Westchester > parkways, to 91, to 84, to 90 > > (Mass Pike) which takes you right to Cambridge. > Four hours. > > You don't need to take 91. Just take the Taconic to > 84 East to 90 East. woosis :). I'll take the GW/95 anyday. Not that upstate NY isn't exceedingly beautiful, but that long ride along 84 is just so boring (Connecticut is nice too, but there's just no, uh, distractions along that route). Sorry sorry I'm done now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:46:35 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <992479.62593.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for > the 80286 weren't > > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, > not Unix (yes, I > > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd > arrangement--Microsoft was > > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was > working on the kernel > > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever Do you mean like development systems? I'm not aware of any pre-AT '286's - not saying there weren't any. They seem to have less exposure then pre-5150 Intel stuph. > Well once Intel gets the bugs out of the 80286 I am > sure M$ will > get the real programs like BASIC for Xenix. :) > > Did not Xenix follow the Small 8086 model - 64K data > & 64K code? Dunno. Let's not forget - and here's where I get tarred and feathered - early *servers* like the Televideo Personal Mini and Northstar Dimension (both sporting 80186's) for instance. They ran OEM versions of Netware. Like UNIX internally - I can't really say, but a lot of the utilitarian stuff was UNIXY at least. I have a PM/16t, but the disks are bad :(. Need them! I haven't rigged a terminal up to it yet, so can't say if the hd is loopy. I bet it is - ~235$ and all the idiot used for packing was a couple of scraps of newspaper. Got a line on a NS Dimension. Inoperable. Don't know about software. I need these folks *whimpers*. There was a *version* of UNIX specific to the NEC APC III (was anything like it available for the APC *1*???). I have Tanenbaum's first book, but it's in storage in Pennsylhoma. Not quite sure when I'll be up that way, but *possibly* it could be as early as this weekend (no promises though). It's in great shape, but has a razored spine. It's yours for the cost of shipping. Sources included. Yay. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:51:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > > If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or > 24-pin GAL can replace > > several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of > being able to make > > changes later that don't involve cutting traces > and adding blue wires. > > You lose the ability to poke around in the middle > of select circuits, > > and to make substantial changes, but it all > depends on what your goals > > for the project are if that's a worthwhile > tradeoff or not. So the benefits of pals/gals are not so much integration or a high degree of, but rather modification? You wouldn't want to, for instance, attempt a *reproduction* (of say a unobtainium piece of silicon) by using a bunch of galpals instead of an FPGA? How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they *easy enough* to build? You do > > have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not > all hobbyists have > > them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob > does, you should > > consider selling programmed parts for those that > can't burn their own. > > That is the downside , the programmer for them. > I suspect 18 pin GAL is a typo. They come in 20 and > 24(thin) pin packages. > > > -ethan > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 5 13:00:33 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:00:33 +0100 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > So have I. Into my brain. I think I'll rememebr that one until my dying day. If you can get hold of one, the Texas Instruments Digital Logic Pocket Data Book (doc code SCYD013A) is a great little desktop reference. It's about A5 size and has pinouts and logic diagrams for just about all of TI's 4000- and 74-series logic chips. They used to give them out free-for-the-asking, but I'm not sure if they still do. If I wanted another copy, I'd probably try calling the local TI sales office and asking nicely. Of course, when I got mine, they also sent me a box full of other databooks as well - basically the whole logic databook series and most of the analog product guides and databooks. The box was about 4ft long by 2ft wide and 1.5ft tall... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:02:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:02:09 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <992479.62593.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca>, <992479.62593.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DE8CB1.16005.1A406BB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:46, Chris M wrote: > Do you mean like development systems? I'm not aware > of any pre-AT '286's - not saying there weren't any. > They seem to have less exposure then pre-5150 Intel > stuph. Definitely were. I worked on the port for the Durango Poppy, for example, using early steppings of the 80286. Interesting thing is that pre-production silicon was available on the 286 and the 186 at about the same time. I wonder if there were any 80286 coprocessor plug-in boards for the XT before the AT? Did Compupro and/or Altos have a pre-PC-AT 80286 system out? I think so. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:09:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:09:47 -0700 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DE1590.3070707@pacbell.net>, <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:27, Chris M wrote: > I'm not so sure about SOTA, but an interesting > machine IMHO. May take a number of peecee style > expansion cards (but DON'T quote me on that). Uses an > 8086 instead of the typical 8088. When Sears had a chain of computer stores, they really flogged the 6300s. I don't know if I'd call the 6300 "state of the art" though. Wasn't it an Olivetti machine under the skin? There were other 8086-based PeeCee-type machines. The Stearns is one that comes to mind. Made somewhere in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis- St. Paul) area, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:10:42 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE8CB1.16005.1A406BB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:46, Chris M wrote: > > > Do you mean like development systems? I'm not > aware > > of any pre-AT '286's - not saying there weren't > any. > > They seem to have less exposure then pre-5150 > Intel > > stuph. > > Definitely were. I worked on the port for the > Durango Poppy, for > example, using early steppings of the 80286. > Interesting thing is > that pre-production silicon was available on the 286 > and the 186 at > about the same time. Yes that does seem to be true. Was the 80186 actually intended for embedded applications? It readily found it's way into that market (probably weren't too many embedded controllers when it was introduced though). > I wonder if there were any 80286 coprocessor plug-in > boards for the > XT before the AT? I'm guessing so, w/o specific knowledge. One of the first though was the Orchid Turbo-186, but was revamped with a '286 before very long. There were patents assigned to the original board: www.freepatentsonline.com/4799150.html funny, Google's cached deposits are as slow as the original server's. Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 5 13:11:51 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:11:51 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <230201c7efe8$3bdba510$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Chuck Guzis": > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. I don't recall which was "first", but I worked with the team that did the XENIX kernel work at Intel. (That work was done on Multibus systems.) Vince From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 5 13:17:45 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:17:45 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu><46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "woodelf": > Did not Xenix follow the Small 8086 model - 64K data & 64K code? XENIX 286 would run small, middle, large, and huge model programs. Most of the utility programs were built small model, as they didn't need much memory. I remember that 'vi' was built middle model. I think back on v7 it was much the same -- most programs didn't need seperate I and D, but vi did. I actually ported GNU emacs to XENIX 286 once. That was a waste of time -- when I got it working, there was only enough RAM left to enter about 40 characters into the buffer. And I was on a 2Mb machine, which was considered large at the time! Vince From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:17:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wasn't it an Olivetti machine under the skin? Yes. Made by Olivetti. It did appear under their name in some incarnations, and also Xerox. The Xerox version came with a b $ w monitor. Damn their so hard to find. > There were other 8086-based PeeCee-type machines. > The Stearns is one > that comes to mind. Made somewhere in the Twin > Cities (Minneapolis- > St. Paul) area, IIRC. NEC APC, APC III off the top of my head. There's others: ACT Apricot F1 ACT Apricot F10 ACT Apricot F2 ACT Apricot PC ACT Apricot Portable ACT Apricot Xi Altos 586 Amstrad PC20 Datavue 25 Fujitzu Micro 16s Grid Case Grid Compass Hewlett-Packard HP-110 Morrow Pivot Olivetti M21 Olivetti M24 Olympia People Osborne Encore Osborne Vaden Panafacom Limited Duet-16 Sinclair PC200 there are a few missing... found this: http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/16bit/gcc/ "very much experimental". There has been a bit of buzz about this same topic on the Linux-86 mailing list. Alan Cox regularly chimes in there. found this too: http://www.redsofts.com/soft/119/18329/ NGASM_80868088_Assembler.html ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:19:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <230201c7efe8$3bdba510$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <109927.52699.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I don't recall which was "first", but I worked with > the team that > did the XENIX kernel work at Intel. (That work was > done on Multibus > systems.) M$ sold XENIX to SCO, right? Did that include every version of XENIX (68000, Tandy 6000 for instance?). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:19:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:19:19 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> References: , <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> Someone wrote: PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 5 13:20:30 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:20:30 +0100 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DEF36E.2050709@philpem.me.uk> Chris M wrote: > So the benefits of pals/gals are not so much > integration or a high degree of, but rather > modification? You wouldn't want to, for instance, > attempt a *reproduction* (of say a unobtainium piece > of silicon) by using a bunch of galpals instead of an > FPGA? The main thing they're good for is squashing a few TTL chips worth of address decoding into a single chip. CPLDs are good for adding simple peripheral interfaces (e.g. I2C, SPI, IDE) to a microprocessor design. FPGAs are good for taking a board full of really fast logic and squashing the whole thing into a single chip. Admittedly a single chip that needs a beastly amount of power and a heatsink similar to those used on the old Pentiums, but a single chip nontheless. > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they > *easy enough* to build? Very easy. Two 7407 buffers, a 74HC573 latch, a few passives and an MC34063-based switch mode voltage converter. The three-diode 3.3V "regulator" is dire and should be replaced with a proper LDO, which isn't difficult - +VE to where D2's anode would go, Vout to where D4's cathode would go, remove R25 and the ground point is the ground-facing side of R25. I'd also be sorely tempted to replace Q2 with an N-channel enhancement-mode MOSFET (no voltage drop!), but that's entirely optional. As presented, though, the design works fine. Just you might have to substitute some parts (especially the transistors) based on local availability. Just about any jellybean medium-power PNP transistor will do for Q2, and Q1 can be swapped for just about any NPN transistor (e.g. BC557, 2N3904) as it's used solely as an inverter for the LATCH signal. The GALBlast software itself is a bit nasty, and only supports 8.3 filenames (despite being a 32-bit application), but it gets the job done. You'll need to install UserPort if you're running Win2K, XP or 2003, otherwise you'll get a "Privileged Instruction" fatal error from Windows, due to the OUT and IN (port I/O) instructions being limited to ring-0 (kernel mode) on the NT-based OSes. Userport allows port I/O, but also allows you to specify allowed port ranges (e.g. just the parallel ports) while blocking everything else. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:25:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <202458.91901.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "woodelf": > > Did not Xenix follow the Small 8086 model - 64K > data & 64K code? > > XENIX 286 would run small, middle, large, and huge > model programs. Huge for the '286 would indicate running in it's version of protected mode? I'm still a bit confused over the difference. I know there was a Windows-286 - does this mean it utilized the '286 in full force - 16megs of ram, etc.? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:31:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:31:15 -0700 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com>, <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DE9383.26813.1A5B0E08@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 11:17, Chris M wrote: > NEC APC, APC III off the top of my head. There's > others: I meant systems that would load and run PC-DOS right out of the box, i.e. "PC compatible" systems. The Grid would fall under that heading, but not many of the others--and certainly not the NEC APC. The 8086 was attractive for the Grid because it came in a low-power CMOS version--the 80c88 came along a bit later. Cheers, Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 13:35:15 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:35:15 -0700 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90709051135m51ad606bma3bb4c3a33a6f331@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, Chris M wrote: > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they > *easy enough* to build? > If you do eBay, you could currently pick up a used BP Microsystems PLD-1100 for $25 (330156113930) or a PLD-1128 for $75 (250055852664), sometimes cheaper. Both of those do GAL22V10 & PALCE22V10 devices. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:36:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Radio PC's Message-ID: <376021.96224.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> I haven't yet laid my hands on them, idiot eBay vendors keep using my stored address instead of sending it where I tell them, but I have a couple of these. Info seems a little hard to find. Used an 80c186 so arguably they're on topic. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:38:22 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90709051135m51ad606bma3bb4c3a33a6f331@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <235733.81649.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Glen Slick wrote: > On 9/5/07, Chris M wrote: > > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are > they > > *easy enough* to build? > > > > If you do eBay, you could currently pick up a used > BP Microsystems > PLD-1100 for $25 (330156113930) or a PLD-1128 for > $75 (250055852664), > sometimes cheaper. > > Both of those do GAL22V10 & PALCE22V10 devices. Ok, thanks. But do these also read gals/pals? I have an old XT/IDE card *somewhere* that I want to replicate. The vintage world is crying out for these suckers! Good luck getting a new hard drive to work w/it though I guess.. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 13:45:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:45:11 -0600 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > So the benefits of pals/gals are not so much > integration or a high degree of, but rather > modification? You wouldn't want to, for instance, > attempt a *reproduction* (of say a unobtainium piece > of silicon) by using a bunch of galpals instead of an > FPGA? > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they > *easy enough* to build? Most of the New Eprom programmers I have seen do GALS. However the last crop of programmers are windows USB that I have been looking around on the net. Atmel has a nice CPLD programing kit for about $100 US. Most low end EPROM programmers are about the same price. The only reason I am not using the CPLD's is the PCB package I am using does not have a 84 Pin PLCC thru the hole footprint. Ben alias Woodelf PS. The real reason is no round tuit's for the footprint once I decide on the CPU instruction set. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 13:46:43 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:46:43 +0200 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DEB0CC.10008@gmail.com> References: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> <46DEB0CC.10008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070905204643.69c75881@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:36:12 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Nope. The RT AIX is the predecessor of the current AIX. You're > thinking of AOS, which was a port of 4.3BSD (or was it 4.2BSD?). Ohh, I didn't know that there was a version of AIX for the RT. I allways thought there was only BSD for the RT. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:47:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:47:34 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <202458.91901.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, <202458.91901.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DE9756.26496.1A6A001E@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 11:25, Chris M wrote: > Huge for the '286 would indicate running in it's > version of protected mode? I'm still a bit confused > over the difference. "Tiny" = 1 segment/selector for both code and data "Small" = 1 segment for code; 1 segment for data "Compact" = 1 segment for code; more than one for data "Medium" = more than one segment for code; 1 segment for data "Large" = more than one segment for both code and data, but no data item larger than 64K "Huge" = more than one segment for both code and data, with individual data elements larger than 64K. There's one model not categorized; one segment for code, and more than one for data with elements larger than 64K. I found that I used this model more than "Huge". Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 13:48:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:48:59 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Someone wrote: > > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) > I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with > "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common chips with middle supply pins. > Cheers, > Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 5 13:48:20 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Plus of course there are some weird designs out there in D-shells > with a variety of pin sizes - e.g. 13W3 connectors for Sun/SGI video, > and ISTR HP using something similar but with a smaller (DA?) shell > size. I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell size). > (Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 > on an DE-sized shell?) Could be; I don't know either way, though. > There's some other weird stuff about too which uses D-type shells > with round pins, but a much smaller form-factor (shell and pin > diameters). I have a few SBus SCSI/Ethernet cards for which the Ethernet is a funny connector with a shell that looks about like a DA scaled by 1/2, and the female connector just has hollow metal cylinders for the pins, without the plastic fill that most female D-shell connectors have. (Also, it's possible that pin sex and shell sex are reversed with respect to one another, as compared to full-size D-shell connectors - again, they're at home and I'm not.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 13:54:55 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:54:55 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca> <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <20070905205455.657efd67@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:17:45 -0700 "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: > I actually ported GNU emacs to XENIX 286 once. That was a waste > of time -- when I got it working, there was only enough RAM left > to enter about 40 characters into the buffer. And I was on a 2Mb > machine, which was considered large at the time! EMACS = Eight Megabytes And Continuously Swapping. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:06:27 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:06:27 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Plus of course there are some weird designs out there in D-shells >> with a variety of pin sizes - e.g. 13W3 connectors for Sun/SGI video, >> and ISTR HP using something similar but with a smaller (DA?) shell >> size. > > I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the > ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA > size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell > size). I can verify that a 3w3 is actually a DA3w3. >> (Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 >> on an DE-sized shell?) > > Could be; I don't know either way, though. The only 5w2 I know of is the DC5w2, which is quite a bit bigger than a DE-shell. I don't know how one would go about cramming five mini-coax connectors into a DE-shell. >> There's some other weird stuff about too which uses D-type shells >> with round pins, but a much smaller form-factor (shell and pin >> diameters). > > I have a few SBus SCSI/Ethernet cards for which the Ethernet is a funny > connector with a shell that looks about like a DA scaled by 1/2, and > the female connector just has hollow metal cylinders for the pins, > without the plastic fill that most female D-shell connectors have. > (Also, it's possible that pin sex and shell sex are reversed with > respect to one another, as compared to full-size D-shell connectors - > again, they're at home and I'm not.) There was also AAUI at one time, no? Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 14:06:44 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:06:44 +0200 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070905210644.428ffbbd@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:11:04 +0100 Jules Richardson wrote: > Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 > on an DE-sized shell? IIRC the ATR used 7W2 in a DA shell. Some IBM graphic cards use 3W3 in a DA shell. Intergraph used some wired D shell like connectors with more then three coax connectors and lots of normal pins. I have SMD cables on my PDP-11/73 with D shell like connectors and high density pins. I think the big one is DC size with 68 pins and the smaler one is DA size with 26 pins. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 14:07:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:07:55 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46DE1590.3070707@pacbell.net>, <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5A34736E-18F5-4366-AB70-AD50C618B6D0@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2007, at 2:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm not so sure about SOTA, but an interesting >> machine IMHO. May take a number of peecee style >> expansion cards (but DON'T quote me on that). Uses an >> 8086 instead of the typical 8088. > > When Sears had a chain of computer stores, they really flogged the > 6300s. I don't know if I'd call the 6300 "state of the art" though. > Wasn't it an Olivetti machine under the skin? Yes, it was built by Olivetti. They sure are nice machines. I've been in touch with the guy in Texas and am going to try to grab the machine...I've wanted one for a long time; I used to sell and service those machines at an after-school job when I was a teenager. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:12:56 2007 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:12:56 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <4677.217.225.115.249.1189018129.squirrel@217.225.115.249> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> <4677.217.225.115.249.1189018129.squirrel@217.225.115.249> Message-ID: Hi Seems that some copies have survived: ac:~/Desktop/OSes/microport paco$ strings build-disk.img | more SYSV386 ERROR reading bootstrap Base memory < 512k, can't boot UNIX Diskette unit 0 must be quad density Loading Unix Paco On 9/5/07, Holger Veit wrote: > > > Chuck Guzis said: > > On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:15, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > >> I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for > 8086 > >> or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > >> with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > >> ports looked like. > > > > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. > > Long time ago I had 5.25" floppies for a Microport/286 Unix in hands, > later a 386 version of that. I think this was a real SYSV UNIX, not a > Xenix UNIX-lookalike. Must have been in the mid 80s, but eventually these > floppies got lost when the 386 and the various 386bsd and Linux > experiments came up. Unfortunately, this Unix died together with Microport > long ago, and not only I have lost the media set. > > Regards > > -- > Holger > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:16:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:16:51 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. >> I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; >> given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the >> POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did >> not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. >> PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but is >> a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. > > The PPC970 is a dual-core processor? The one I'm typing this on > certainly doesn't seem to be. Not all are, but they were available. Still are, if you want to get an IBM Bladecenter JS20. Just not in a Mac. >> I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER >> can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs such >> as OS/400 or zOS. > > z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. > > Am I just blind today or something? I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now than it ever has in the past. Also, in other messages in this thread, people have been saying stuff to the effect that pSeries and zSeries aren't architecturally all that different anymore. Anyone who says that hasn't used zSeries hardware. That would be like saying that the Tandem NonStop S is similar to the SGI Indigo^2 because they're both based on MIPS R4400. Or that the Cray T3E is similar to the Compaq Alphastation 1200 because they're both based on Alpha EV56. Hogwash. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:18:09 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:18:09 -0500 Subject: 8k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46DEE86E.9080104@bitsavers.org> References: <46DEE86E.9080104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > There's a set of those at a downtown bookstore > > The entire set was distributed as PDF's on a CD. I wouldn't bother > with the dead tree version. There was also an overview volume added > in the later versions. I figured it was available electronically - one of the reasons I didn't get it (cost was the other - $20 for the set and I might have). -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:18:59 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:18:59 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF0123.7090009@gmail.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The only 5w2 I know of is the DC5w2, which is quite a bit bigger than a > DE-shell. I don't know how one would go about cramming five mini-coax > connectors into a DE-shell. Crap. I just realized I had it backwards. *never mind* Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:19:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:19:24 -0500 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, woodelf wrote: > I suspect 18 pin GAL is a typo. They come in 20 and 24(thin) pin packages. Yes... sorry... I was working with 74C922s and some flavor of PIC in 18-pin packages and entered the wrong number. The 16V8 is in a 20-pin package. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:21:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:21:36 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: > I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the > ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA > size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell > size). Sounds like the back of one of my DEC MIPS workstations... a DA shell with enough room for 3 large coax pins. Not sure how to call it. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:23:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:23:25 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DF022D.3080804@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: >> I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the >> ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA >> size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell >> size). > > Sounds like the back of one of my DEC MIPS workstations... a DA shell > with enough room for 3 large coax pins. > > Not sure how to call it. DA3w3. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 14:32:04 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:32:04 +0200 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070905213204.45f40903@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Chris M wrote: > So the benefits of pals/gals are not so much > integration or a high degree of, but rather > modification? There are many different variants of PALs. Clocked, registered, tristate, ... I can't remember waht was available. GALs have configurable outputs. With a PAL you have to choose a special chip to get tristate outputs. You need an other chip for open collector outputs. (Or somthing like that.) A GAL has all this build in. You can switch the type by programming it. So a single type, a GAL 16V8, can replace many different PAL variants. > You wouldn't want to, for instance, > attempt a *reproduction* (of say a unobtainium piece > of silicon) by using a bunch of galpals instead of an > FPGA? GALs are much, _much_ lower integrated as FPGAs. FPGAs are more flexible then GALs also. > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they > *easy enough* to build? A long time ago I was building a GAL programmer baised on a BASIC stamp. Given the limited capabilities of the BASIC stamp you can imagin that it isn't that hard to programm a GAL. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 14:47:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:47:26 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 12:48, woodelf wrote: > I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) > Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common > chips with middle supply pins. If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to 7- segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK FF, 7476 = dual JK FF and almost all of the other "non-7400" TTL stuff, such as the MC400, 500, 2000, etc. series. It seems to me that there was one oddball case of a 74L series chip having a different pinout that the 74 "vanilla" flavor. Anyone remember? Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:57:52 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:57:52 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <51ea77730709051257g413073dcl71993edf07e43a10@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: > I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the > ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA > size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell > size). I believe the color card on my Vaxstation 3100 uses this connector. I'd always called it "0W3." From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 15:05:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <20070905130438.A86688@shell.lmi.net> Xenix was kinda bloated. Although it would run happily on an XT, it wanted 16M of hard disk! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 15:08:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070905130716.V86688@shell.lmi.net> Is that one of the "rare" ones with the developers' names on the inside of the case :-? On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Mark Tapley wrote: > Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors > is, Believe it or not, that one IS a DB25. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Sep 5 08:51:43 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:51:43 +0100 Subject: British Computers Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well trust me to forget Mentec. They have gone very quiet. I doubt they have made (or have had made) any processor boards in a while. Pity ... But there it is.. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Cantrell Sent: 05 September 2007 12:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: British Computers On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 01:57:12PM +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Several multinationals had or have a presence in Ireland ... > > Many of these built computers or peripherals here for the European market. > However, it is pretty much the same as equipment thats found > everywhere else in the world. I am not aware of anything that could be > regarded as being uniquely Irish in the same way that for example > Acorn kit could be regarded as being British. I'd be inclined to count the Mentec PDP-11s, even though they didn't create them to start with. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life -- Samuel Johnson From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Sep 5 13:38:57 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:38:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4657.217.225.115.249.1189017537.squirrel@217.225.115.249> woodelf said: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or 24-pin GAL can replace >> several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of being able to make >> changes later that don't involve cutting traces and adding blue wires. >> You lose the ability to poke around in the middle of select circuits, >> and to make substantial changes, but it all depends on what your goals >> for the project are if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not. You do >> have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not all hobbyists have >> them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob does, you should >> consider selling programmed parts for those that can't burn their own. > > That is the downside , the programmer for them. > I suspect 18 pin GAL is a typo. They come in 20 and 24(thin) pin packages. There are also 28 pin versions. There is a very good design on the internet, namely the GALBLAST of Manfred Winterhoff (check google). But although they are handy, IMHO they are meanwhile outdated. I prefer CPLDs (xilinx 9536 or 72 for instance) for the same purpose even if these require PLCC44 or 84 pin sockets, because they are even easier to program through their boundery scan interface, and do no longer need the obscure programming voltages. GALs are good for any kind of decoding logic, but are rather weak when it comes to multilevel sequential logic. So I'd say: while a GAL might replace square inches of TTLs (I'd think about the graveyard of 7400, 7404, 7402, 7432, 7451, 7454 chips frequently found in old machines, where often a well-specified 74188 ROM decoder would have been sufficient), a CPLD will replace some inches of GAL glue logic. Plus the CPLD usually doesn't suck that much current as the old PAL/GAL technology. Regards -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Sep 5 13:48:49 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:48:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4677.217.225.115.249.1189018129.squirrel@217.225.115.249> Chuck Guzis said: > On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:15, Brian Wheeler wrote: > >> I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 >> or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing >> with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" >> ports looked like. > > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. Long time ago I had 5.25" floppies for a Microport/286 Unix in hands, later a 386 version of that. I think this was a real SYSV UNIX, not a Xenix UNIX-lookalike. Must have been in the mid 80s, but eventually these floppies got lost when the 386 and the various 386bsd and Linux experiments came up. Unfortunately, this Unix died together with Microport long ago, and not only I have lost the media set. Regards -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Sep 5 14:16:08 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:16:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4695.217.225.115.249.1189019768.squirrel@217.225.115.249> Dave McGuire said: > It's worth noting that some CPLD families are more-or-less direct > implementations of common PAL architectures. A Xilinx XC9536 CPLD, > for example, is very similar to two of what might have been called > PAL36V18. This comes in very handy if you're experienced with PAL > design and want to move into higher-density devices. Nah, while you can use ABEL and PALASM scripts to convert into programming patterns for a CPLD, you can't vice versa map Verilog and VHDL descriptions of certain complexity into PALs/GALs. It is not the gate count alone that counts, but at that point the flexibility of the interconnection network between the logic blocks. A difficulty with GAL/PALs is that their logic blocks typically contain a flipflop whose output is more or less directly associated with an output pin of the chip. You can feed it back to the input and/or matrix to build Moore-style finite state machines, but you usually lose an output pin for those hidden feedbacks. CPLDs in contrast separate logic blocks an I/O blocks and allow almost free assignment between logic and I/O. Regards -- Holger From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 15:34:32 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070905133249.R86688@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. IIRC, Xenix WAS Unix. There were two parts of a Unix license, code and name. Xenix was fully licensed on code, but did not license the "Unix" name trademark. Leastwise, that's how it was written up in infoworld, etc. at the time. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 5 15:43:21 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 13:43:21 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) References: , <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5 Sep 2007 at 12:48, woodelf wrote: > > > I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) > > Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common > > chips with middle supply pins. > > If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to > 7-segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK ^^^^^^^^^ 7441=nixie tube driver > FF, 7476 = dual JK FF and almost all of the other "non-7400" TTL > stuff, such as the MC400, 500, 2000, etc. series. (For me, the 7473 always seemed to stand out as the oddball pinout as the chip was so common.) > It seems to me that there was one oddball case of a 74L series chip > having a different pinout that the 74 "vanilla" flavor. Anyone > remember? The 74L86 quad XOR pinout differs from that of 7486, also 'L85/'85, 'L93/'93, 'L95/'95. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Sep 5 15:55:04 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:55:04 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes In-Reply-To: <200709051854.l85IsYkn018065@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709051854.l85IsYkn018065@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I am *so* sorry - I left off the correct letter (thought it was "B", just wasn't sure) in hopes of *avoiding* kicking off the annual D-shell connector nomenclature thread. Have we dug up the horse bones, beat them into flour, baked the flour into bread, and punched it down enough now? Guess not. I'll add to the mess: At 13:54 -0500 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: >I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the >ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA >size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell >size). My DEC VAX4000VLC uses a connector that sounds just like that for video output. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 5 15:55:44 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:55:44 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu><46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> <4677.217.225.115.249.1189018129.squirrel@217.225.115.249> Message-ID: <233e01c7efff$21171bd0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Holger Veit": > Long time ago I had 5.25" floppies for a Microport/286 Unix in hands, > later a 386 version of that. I think this was a real SYSV UNIX, not a > Xenix UNIX-lookalike. Must have been in the mid 80s, but eventually these > floppies got lost when the 386 and the various 386bsd and Linux > experiments came up. Unfortunately, this Unix died together with Microport > long ago, and not only I have lost the media set. I still have the pilot evaluation units of Intel's XENIX 3.0 distribution for the System 310 (Multibus 286). Vince From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 16:05:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:05:47 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070905133249.R86688@shell.lmi.net> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070905133249.R86688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DEB7BB.7436.1AE88AFB@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 13:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > IIRC, Xenix WAS Unix. There were two parts of a Unix license, code and > name. Xenix was fully licensed on code, but did not license the "Unix" > name trademark. > Leastwise, that's how it was written up in infoworld, etc. at the time. There were, I recall, some significant differences. Like BSD, I think it'd be safest to term it "Unix derivative". AT&T got really strange in the early 80's about their licensing terms. At some point, I think, they were pushing a per-seat fee. No more of "Pay us $50K and we'll send you a tape that you can play with however you'd like". I have MS-DOS 2.0 release notes from Microsoft that says that they intended to turn MS-DOS into a single-user Xenix-work-alike. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 16:10:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:10:26 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9BB9C9F8-B1D6-4847-B0D3-456B9CFA7C27@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER >>> can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs >>> such >>> as OS/400 or zOS. >> z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. >> Am I just blind today or something? > > I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* > > I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now > than it ever has in the past. Indeed, I've read that as well. > Also, in other messages in this thread, people have been saying > stuff to the effect that pSeries and zSeries aren't architecturally > all that different anymore. Anyone who says that hasn't used > zSeries hardware. That would be like saying that the Tandem NonStop > S is similar to the SGI Indigo^2 because they're both based on MIPS > R4400. Or that the Cray T3E is similar to the Compaq Alphastation > 1200 because they're both based on Alpha EV56. Hogwash. "Hogwash" is definitely a good way to put it. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 16:12:42 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:12:42 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes In-Reply-To: References: <200709051854.l85IsYkn018065@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I am *so* sorry - I left off the correct letter (thought it was "B", > just wasn't sure) in hopes of *avoiding* kicking off the annual > D-shell connector nomenclature thread. Thats OK. I forgive you. So far, over the years NOBODY has managed to give the proper nomenclature. I suggest anyone interested should look up the mil standard. It tells all. -- Will, who has nothing more to add to this annual time waster. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 16:15:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:15:36 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46DEBA08.16574.1AF186A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 13:43, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to > > 7-segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK > ^^^^^^^^^ 7441=nixie tube driver "Nixie" refers to a Burroughs-trademarked product. I believe that a 7441 can also drive Numicators. Also VFDs, so my term of "gas tube" isn't even accurate. How's that for pedantic? ;) > The 74L86 quad XOR pinout differs from that of 7486, also 'L85/'85, 'L93/'93, 'L95/'95. It was the L86 that I was thinking of. Gate pinout oriented as face- to-face instead of head-to-tail. "L" gates could be wire-ORed also; something I recall that you can find in the MITS 8800 front panel (along with bare mains AC traces). (The two ARE related in my computer, one accidental probe leading to the demise of an L00 in the Altair). Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 16:18:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:18:33 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25D904FA-86DB-44CA-914D-AC9DE93DC990@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2007, at 1:27 PM, Chris M wrote: > Being that *presumably* it has color graphics > capability, someone should grab it. They're not that > easy to come by. Yup. And they do 640x400, which was kinda unusual at the time. > I'm not so sure about SOTA, but an interesting > machine IMHO. May take a number of peecee style > expansion cards (but DON'T quote me on that). Uses an > 8086 instead of the typical 8088. 8086 at 8MHz in fact. > Uses a passive-backplane motherboard. It does use a passive backplane for the ISA slots, but the logic board itself isn't a card in that backplane. The logic board is on the bottom of the machine (chips facing down, if memory serves) and that contains nearly all of the system logic. > A fun machine to tinker > around w/if you ask me. Oh, you didn't ask me...well > then BUZZ OFF! LOL LOL I spent quite a bit of time working on those machines. They are really, really nice. The monitors are crisp and sharp, the keyboards are *fantastic*, and the chassis are built like tanks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 5 17:10:41 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:10:41 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> Jason T wrote: > > I've got a line on one of these old Nixie-tube calculators at > > a fair price. I know they used an outboard processor, making > > them little more than (very pretty) terminals to a central > > CPU. Are they of any use other than a doorstop or eye candy > > for the collection? (And don't say "harvest them for the Nixies!") Rick Bensene wrote: > The 300 - Series Wang Calculators consisted of two parts: an electronics > package, and > "Keyboard/Display Units". The electronics packages are usually > small-briefcase-sized (single-user) or longer, shorter packages with a > connector (or connectors for the multi-user versions) that the > keyboard/display units plug into. > > The Keyboard/Display units are pretty much useless by themselves -- they > need the "brains" in the electronics package to do anything. All the > keyboard/display units consist of are a keyboard and keyboard encoding > circuitry, and a Nixie tube display with display decode/driver > electronics. There are no mathematical electronics in the > Keyboard/display units. ... > The keyboard/display units have pretty simple circuitry inside them. It > wouldn't be too hard to build some kind of microprocessor or > microcontroller-based gizmo that would emulate the electronics package > and bring a Keyboard/Display unit to life. You'd need some good math > knowledge to implement the various math routines, but the interface is a > very simple multiplexed BCD display, and a six-bit key code for each > key, encoded by a diode matrix. I received two orphan 320K keyboard/display units a few years ago (no logic unit). Hobbled up a little level-shifting hardware and wrote some calculator code to drive them from a SWTPC 6800 - in other words the 6800 was replacing the missing logic unit. Worked fine but the next (intended) step was to redo it all in a microcontroller and stuff it inside the 320K case so it would be a stand-alone 'modern' nixie desktop calculator. Would be kinda nice because the 320K KDUs have a small footprint compared to other nixie desktop calcs. There is very little spare room in the case however. I think I anticipated it would be feasible if one used an external wal-wart (ugly) for the power transformer. The KDUs are very well built: cast aluminum case, micro-switches for the keys... From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 5 17:11:03 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:11:03 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) References: , <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> <46DEBA08.16574.1AF186A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5 Sep 2007 at 13:43, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to > > > 7-segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK > > ^^^^^^^^^ 7441=nixie tube driver > > "Nixie" refers to a Burroughs-trademarked product. I believe that a > 7441 can also drive Numicators. Also VFDs, so my term of "gas tube" > isn't even accurate. How's that for pedantic? ;) Whoops, yes, I should have said 1-of-10 decoder - was just trying to distinguish that it's logically quite different than a 7-seg decoder. I think I actually did see a 7441 used for something other than driving a nixie once, as you suggest, but I can't remember what it was in. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 17:23:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <25D904FA-86DB-44CA-914D-AC9DE93DC990@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <237916.97495.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 5, 2007, at 1:27 PM, Chris M wrote: > > Being that *presumably* it has color graphics > > capability, someone should grab it. They're not > that > > easy to come by. > > Yup. And they do 640x400, which was kinda > unusual at the time. Not so much unusual, just not so use-ual. Tandy 2000, NEC APC, APC III, a number of pre-EGA graphics boards. I really really wanted an IBM 5150 (a real peecee, not that *Taiwanese junk*, which in reality was just as good), with a Sigma 400 video card, and a Princeton PG-12 (I may have screwed the model designation up). ~2500$ in 1986 dollars. A little too pricey for a 19 year old making 3.40$/hour. So I settled on a Tandy 1000. Kept it for about 2 weeks LOL. The following year I bought a T2K when it went on sale. The rest is history. In fact all of it is history. And now so is this here message... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 5 17:38:43 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:38:43 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46DEBA08.16574.1AF186A7@cclist.sydex.com> <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200709051838.43175.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 05 September 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Whoops, yes, I should have said 1-of-10 decoder - was just trying to > distinguish that it's logically quite different than a 7-seg decoder. > I think I actually did see a 7441 used for something other than > driving a nixie once, as you suggest, but I can't remember what it > was in. Maybe a bar (dot) graph? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:46:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:46:52 +0100 Subject: D-shell sizes In-Reply-To: References: <200709051854.l85IsYkn018065@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46DF31DC.5030006@yahoo.co.uk> Mark Tapley wrote: > > > I am *so* sorry - I left off the correct letter (thought it was "B", > just wasn't sure) in hopes of *avoiding* kicking off the annual D-shell > connector nomenclature thread. Place just wouldn't be the same without it! We all have to start that thread sooner or later too; it's something akin to a classiccmp rite of passage I think :-) > Have we dug up the horse bones, beat them into flour, baked the flour > into bread, and punched it down enough now? Are those DE- horse bones or DB- ? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 17:55:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:55:44 -0500 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> <46DEBA08.16574.1AF186A7@cclist.sydex.com> <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Whoops, yes, I should have said 1-of-10 decoder - was just trying to distinguish > that it's logically quite different than a 7-seg decoder. > I think I actually did see a 7441 used for something other than driving a nixie > once, as you suggest, but I can't remember what it was in. I _think_ I remember seeing a 7441 being used as a solenoid driver in "The TTL Cookbook" or something of that vintage. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:18:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:18:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 5, 7 11:47:30 am Message-ID: > The 25-pin size - the one used for the MAC SCSI you refer to, the one > called for by the mechanical portion of the RS-232 spec, the one used > for peecee parallel ports - is DB. > > Using pin count for that same pin spacing, the table is DA=15, DB=25, > DC=39 (I think), DD=50 (three rows), DE=9. The DE shell is also used DC37, actually > in a 15-pin variant ("VGA"), but the pins are spaced substantially > closer than in the DE-9. DA is probably best known for peecee joystick In the high-density range, the standard sizes seem to be (in increasing shell size) : DE15 DA26 DB44 DC62 DD78 > connectors, but it also got used for AUI Ethernet back in the 10base5 > days, before even 10base2, much less 10baseT. DC doesn't get used much > in my experience; I think I have a few SBus cards that use it for the The common uses (on various machines) are : DE9 : MDA, CGA monitors, PC/AT serial ports, some DEC printer (serial) ports, Commodore/Atari Joysticks DA15 : PC joystick, BBC micro analogue port (joystick :-)), AUI ethernet DB25 : Real RS232 ports, PC parallel ports, Mac SCSI port, IEC625 interface (IEEE-488 on a DB25 connector!) DC37 : PC external floppy interface. Some QIC tape interfaces. Canon 'VDO' direct laser printer engine interface. DD50 : Sun (and PERQ 3A) SCSI interface DE15 : PC VGA (and higher) video DA26 : Not seen it DB44 : Not seen that either DC62 : PC expansion unit DD78 : Some HP multple seiral ports Of course all these connectors were used for many other things besides (my ACW has a DB25 keyboard socket, a DB25 user port and a DC37 '1MHz bus'. I've wired all my HP 8-bit parallel interfaces for the 98x0 and 9815 to DC37 sockets, and so on). and they're used on things other than computers. [...] > I don't know why they are out of order. I speculate that someone > designed DA through DD, never expecting D-shell to get used for > anything under 15 pins, then had to tack on the 9-pin size later. > (Arguably they should have called it D@, but that would probably have > been too geeky. :) I bleieve that's correct. Also '@' is 'letter 0' only in ascii :-) > > There exist D-shell connectors of other sizes, like the NeXT "black" > hardware video connector (which held something like 19 pins). I don't > know whether they have names in the DA..DE series; I suspect they have > no standard names because they're not standard sizes. I've heard them called the 'DF19' and 'DG23' (Amiga video connector?) but I don't know how official that is. Probsbly not at all! I've heard that HP used 3 pin and 5 pin D-shaped seiral connectors on some of their older machines. Were these DE-size shells or something else? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:23:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:23:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with In-Reply-To: <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 5, 7 06:11:04 pm Message-ID: > Plus of course there are some weird designs out there in D-shells with a > variety of pin sizes - e.g. 13W3 connectors for Sun/SGI video, and ISTR HP > using something similar but with a smaller (DA?) shell size. (Also, weren't DEC 9and maybe HP) put 3 coax connectors in a DA-size shell (RGB video, sync-on-green). > some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 on an DE-sized shell?) I thought that was a DA shell too, but I've not seen one for years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:27:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:27:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 5, 7 07:00:33 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > > > So have I. Into my brain. I think I'll rememebr that one until my dying day. > > If you can get hold of one, the Texas Instruments Digital Logic Pocket Data > Book (doc code SCYD013A) is a great little desktop reference. It's about A5 > size and has pinouts and logic diagrams for just about all of TI's 4000- and > 74-series logic chips. I'll stick to my 'full' TI TTL databooks. I have an old hard-backed one, covering things like 74Hxxx numbers (it's late enough to contain 74LS, but nothing after that), and the full 3-volume set. Volume 1 is plain, S and LS, Volume 2 is AS and ALS, Volume 3 is programmable stuff (PROMs, PALs). I forget which book contains RAMs ;-) > > They used to give them out free-for-the-asking, but I'm not sure if they still > do. If I wanted another copy, I'd probably try calling the local TI sales > office and asking nicely. > > Of course, when I got mine, they also sent me a box full of other databooks as > well - basically the whole logic databook series and most of the analog > product guides and databooks. The box was about 4ft long by 2ft wide and 1.5ft > tall... You were lucky. I had to _pay_ for all my databooks.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:30:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:30:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE8CB1.16005.1A406BB6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 5, 7 11:02:09 am Message-ID: > I wonder if there were any 80286 coprocessor plug-in boards for the > XT before the AT? I don't know when thay came out (relative to the AT), but 80286 add-on boards for the XT exist(ed). There's one in my junk box. It's a half-length ISA card containing an 80286, 80287 and glue logic, with a ribbon cable ending in a 40 pin DIL plug that presumanly goes in the 8088 socket on the PC/XT motherboard. I also have an 8086 board for the XT. Of course the benefit of that processor over the 8088 was the 16 bit databus, which sould be lost if the thing had to do 8 bit accesses to memory. So there's full 640K of RAM on this board too. Of course it does use 8 bit transfers to access ROMs and peripherals. This is a full-length card, again with a cable and DIL plug to go in the 8088 socket. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:58:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:58:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 5, 7 12:47:26 pm Message-ID: > It seems to me that there was one oddball case of a 74L series chip > having a different pinout that the 74 "vanilla" flavor. Anyone > remember? There are many .A quick flip through my old TTL book shows : 74H01 (pinout as 7400!) as against 7401 ('gates turned round') 7451/74H51/74S51 as against 74L51/74LS51 (the latter has one more input on each of the NANDs in one of the AOIs) 7454 as agains 74H54 (the latter has one extra input on one of the ANDs) 74H55 as against 74L55/74LS55 (the former has an 'expander' input) 74H71 (AND-D-OR gated JK master/slave flipflop with preset) as against 74L71 (AND gated R-S master-slave flipflop with preset and clear). And the pinouts are totally different too! 7493 as against 74L93 (even the power pins move!) 7495/74LS95 as against 74L95 (the former has corner power pins, the latter middle power pins.) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:34:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:34:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Sep 5, 7 11:17:46 am Message-ID: > > There were other 8086-based PeeCee-type machines. [...] > Hewlett-Packard HP-110 Yes, amazingly the HP MS-DOS laptops (HP110 and 110+ (Portable Plus) were 8086 machines, the desktop MS-DOS HP's of the time (HP150, HP150-II) were 8088s. Go figure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:36:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:36:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 5, 7 11:19:19 am Message-ID: > > Someone wrote: > > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) No, the O/C version of the 7400 is the 7403. > I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with > "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. Ne too, And I can never remember the pinouts of the more obscure JK flip-flops, or some the lower-numbered counters with the outputs in a crazy order. The other thing to watch for (if you're repairing old hardware...) is that there are some (IIRC) 74Hxxx chips where the pinout is totally differeint for the 'plain' or LS version. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:41:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:41:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 5, 7 12:48:59 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Someone wrote: > > > > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > > > Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) > > I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with > > "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. > > I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) > Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common Don;'t you mean 7483 here? The 7486 is a quad XOR gate, pinout similar to the 8400, and with corner supply pins. The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply pins). > chips with middle supply pins. The ones I come acorss most often are the 7490, 7492, 7493 counters. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 18:18:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <479685.71795.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I also have an 8086 board for the XT. Of course the > benefit of that > processor over the 8088 was the 16 bit databus, > which sould be lost if > the thing had to do 8 bit accesses to memory. So > there's full 640K of > RAM on this board too. Of course it does use 8 bit > transfers to access > ROMs and peripherals. This is a full-length card, > again with a cable and > DIL plug to go in the 8088 socket. Is it's intended to supplant or supplement the 8088? Are you sure it just isn't a mpu board for some unit w/a passive backplane? I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just that it's a possibility. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 5 18:11:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:11:23 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <20070905124610.S38778@plum.flirble.org> References: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> <20070905110136.GA28475@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20070905124610.S38778@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <46DF379B.4070005@yahoo.co.uk> Andrew Back wrote: > In terms of British minis there were at British Gas in Leeds (England) > in the 80s a system made by Cossor Electronics (also made scopes and > valve radios etc) that was based around a TMS9900, finished in a very > fetching orange with flicky-switches operator panel. It had Pertec disk > drives each with a separate 19" 2U 'formatter' unit (controller?), > remote graphics heads that had some kind of controller (kb in, and RGB > out to big 20 inch or so CCTV-style monitors) hooked-up to the CPU by > extended serial links. That's interesting; we were given a few 19" 3U instrument cases the other week with video out (PC-style VGA), keyboard in (PC-AT type connector, but no guarantee that's what they actually require), and a serial port on them. No other I/O, and no idea what they were originally used for. Very professionally-built circuitry inside. I'll have to dig up some model details; I can't remember who they were made by now. Seems a bit weird if someone went to that much trouble to re-implement a dumb serial terminal, so it may be they do a similar job to what your gadgets did. > Never seen or heard of a Cossor computer since Sounds like a pretty interesting crate. Sadly lots of manufacturers seemed to sideline into computing in the 70s and 80s and have now all but forgotten their computing past (if the company still exists at all) :-( > This has also just reminded me of another very cool device we had at BG. > A thing called a 'Radac' Very interesting... I'll have to keep an eye out for one; I've never heard of anyone putting the data surfaces on the inside before. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 18:20:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070905161931.Y96315@shell.lmi.net> > > I wonder if there were any 80286 coprocessor plug-in boards for the > > XT before the AT? On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > half-length ISA card containing an 80286, 80287 and glue logic, with a > ribbon cable ending in a 40 pin DIL plug that presumanly goes in the 8088 > socket on the PC/XT motherboard. > > I also have an 8086 board for the XT. Of course the benefit of that ISA: 80386 "Elevator"? Z80 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 18:22:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <479685.71795.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <479685.71795.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > Is it's intended to supplant or supplement the 8088? > Are you sure it just isn't a mpu board for some unit > w/a passive backplane? I don't mean to insult your > intelligence, just that it's a possibility. I've had ones that were explicitly to replace (supplant?) the 8088 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 18:31:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:31:11 -0500 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? ... > > The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply pins). Ah... good to know. The PDP-8/L and -8/i have a 7483 on each M220 card, but I remember seeing either a 74283 or, if it exists, a 74183 in the design for that PDP-8/i work-alike I mentioned here a few weeks ago. The difference, I would guess, is probably that the designer of the clone didn't want to fiddle with an older, odd chip. I should probably find a source of a handful of 7483s since I have a small stack of dead M220s. I don't know what's wrong with them yet (probably dead 7474s if the rest of the machine is any indication), but I'd hate to trace it to the adder and have no spares on hand. I did not realize it was a strange-power-pin part. I would have figured it out eventually, but it's best to be forwarned. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 18:32:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 00:32:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <479685.71795.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Sep 5, 7 04:18:43 pm Message-ID: > > I also have an 8086 board for the XT. Of course the > > benefit of that > > processor over the 8088 was the 16 bit databus, > > which sould be lost if > > the thing had to do 8 bit accesses to memory. So > > there's full 640K of > > RAM on this board too. Of course it does use 8 bit > > transfers to access > > ROMs and peripherals. This is a full-length card, > > again with a cable and > > DIL plug to go in the 8088 socket. > > Is it's intended to supplant or supplement the 8088? > Are you sure it just isn't a mpu board for some unit > w/a passive backplane? I don't mean to insult your > intelligence, just that it's a possibility. I think the name etched into the copper implied it was an add-on for the PC/XT, and given the fact that it has this ribbon cable ending in the 40 pin DIL header plug, I assume it replaces the 8088 (and therefore doesn't go in a passive backplane). -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 18:33:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > > Is it's intended to supplant or supplement the > 8088? > > Are you sure it just isn't a mpu board for some > unit > > w/a passive backplane? I don't mean to insult your > > intelligence, just that it's a possibility. > > I've had ones that were explicitly to replace > (supplant?) the 8088 We could be getting our lines crossed here. Typically these things are called "coprocessors". I defy that designation. Granted there could be some offloading of instructions (sort of kind of like what happens w/an onboard 8087), but regardless, the objective is to replace the 8088. I had been wondering if there were boards for a pc that supplemented the operation of the onboard mpu by providing another processor altoghether, and in no way replacing the old 8088, thereby in effect giving you 2 pc's in one. Of course there were z80 boards, 68k? boards that accomplished this. Referring to an IBM PGA card is cheating :). It's function was not to provide a second environment. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 18:37:52 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <933650.24487.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I think the name etched into the copper implied it > was an add-on for the > PC/XT, and given the fact that it has this ribbon > cable ending in the 40 > pin DIL header plug, I assume it replaces the 8088 > (and therefore doesn't > go in a passive backplane). Uh, yes I actually did read that, but evidently lost the knowledge rather quickly. Nuff said. Funny though that someone would go to all the trouble, and expense, to simply add an 8086 though. I guess it could have been a fast 8086. But a board like that probably wasn't cheap. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 19:00:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:00:06 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net>, <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DEE096.10771.1B882019@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 16:33, Chris M wrote: >> We could be getting our lines crossed here. Typically > these things are called "coprocessors". I defy that > designation. Granted there could be some offloading of > instructions (sort of kind of like what happens w/an > onboard 8087), but regardless, the objective is to > replace the 8088. I had been wondering if there were > boards for a pc that supplemented the operation of the > onboard mpu by providing another processor > altoghether, and in no way replacing the old 8088, > thereby in effect giving you 2 pc's in one. Of course > there were z80 boards, 68k? boards that accomplished > this. The Intel Inboard 286 or 386 PC/XT? IIRC, the 8088 booted, then turned over the bus to the 286 or 386. I don't know if there were any applications that switched between the two, but I don't doubt that one could devise an application such that one or the other would be running. I do recall the "This will not run on an Inboard 286!" notices, however. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 5 18:55:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:55:24 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: <1295698f86f39db8f66e1b7c6a4c6ac3@mac.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <1295698f86f39db8f66e1b7c6a4c6ac3@mac.com> Message-ID: <46DF41EC.4080001@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Pugh wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2007, at 06:33, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Not as far as I know, but BARCO are a big Belgian maker of TV's and >> monitors. >> They may have been involved. >> >> Rod >> > > BARCO were big with Air traffic control systems i think. I remember NATS at West Drayton in the UK were using Barco displays when I visited them a couple of years ago. The CRT screens must have been something like a 28" diagonal and the resolution was very high, several thousand pixels in each axis. Engineering on them looked to be a very high standard, too. One of those few times I've seen a piece of modern technology that I've actually wanted to own :-) From bear at typewritten.org Wed Sep 5 20:28:29 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:28:29 -0700 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DE7977.16908.19F54DC1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DE7977.16908.19F54DC1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2007, at 9:40 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 37-pin External floppy drive connectors on PC and PS/2. Some SCSI > cards (e.g. the Iomega Bernoulli PC version) also used them. There's > also a 68-pin 3-row "high-density" version used on Overland and Chi > Pertec 9-track adapters. Nit, it has 62 pins. It's a DC62. > There's also a "thicker" 50-pin 3-row (not HD) connector used for > the external connector for some PC-based QIC-02 and QIC-36 > controllers (Wangtek, I think). That's the D-size. The DD50. There are also DD78 and DD100 connectors. > There were also non-standard sizes, such as the 19-pin D connector > used for Atari ST ACSI connections. I've heard them described as DF19 (NeXT monitor, Macintosh floppy) and DG23 (Amiga floppy, Amiga RGB), though this is not part of the standard. Jules mentioned alternate pin designations too. Besides the "W" for coaxial "pins", there are also "high current" pins, physically the same size as the coaxial ones but with a single conductor, and perhaps others besides. Gee, look what I found. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature ok bear From bear at typewritten.org Wed Sep 5 20:39:49 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:39:49 -0700 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39EC8C85-0E06-4272-B183-30CA9AA131C0@typewritten.org> On Sep 5, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> (Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a >>> 5W2 >>> on an DE-sized shell?) >> Could be; I don't know either way, though. > > The only 5w2 I know of is the DC5w2, which is quite a bit bigger > than a DE-shell. I don't know how one would go about cramming five > mini-coax connectors into a DE-shell. ATR is a DA7W2. There are only two coaxial connectors in an nW2. (@; ok bear From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 5 21:55:50 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 22:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI/IDE laptop adapters: outcome Message-ID: <200709060324.XAA17119@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Back on August 25th, I wrote of a possible group buy of adapters to take a laptop IDE disk and use it in a machine expecting a laptop SCSI disk. One person (you know who you are, and thank you very much) wrote to one of these lists and named a vendor that carried them as of a day or two earlier (the post said something like "I just ordered a few more"); interestingly enough, it was the very vendor who had denied all knowledge of them on the phone to me: MCE Technologies, LLC, mcetech.com, +1 949 458 0800, or, in the NANPA, 1-800-500-0622. (I can't speak to the validity of the 949-458-0800 number; I used the 800-500-0622 number when calling as outlined below.) However, this post also named an MCE Tech part number for them ("sta-idescsi25", and indeed the invoice copy packed with the devices says "STA-IDESCSI25" in the "Item No." column). So I called them again, and, not letting on I'd called before, asked about them by that number. They said they had some in stock, so I ordered two. They arrived today, and as far as I can tell are exactly what I wanted: I have a Toshiba laptop IDE drive of slightly over 4G in my Voyager right now using one of them. I did hear from some people wanting into the group buy. MCE said on the phone that they ship worldwide (they use FedEx, or at least they did for me), and their price of (US)$20 is enough below the $65 I was expecting to pay that I daresay anyone who was willing to join the group buy can just order directly and still come out ahead. (Usual disclaimers apply - I have no relationship with them other than that of customer with supplier, etc.) They did get one thing wrong: they asked whether I'd rather have express or ground shipping, and I'm quite sure I said ground, but they shipped express anyway. The extra cost was a little annoying, but still got me two of them for about what I was expecting to pay for one, so I'm not kicking - but anyone who wants non-express shipping might want to be fairly emphatic about it. (As before, I'm setting a reply-to to a bitbucket; please fix up your to-line if you're replying, to point to the list or person to whom you intend to reply.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 22:51:37 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:51:37 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DF7949.7090905@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? The 7486 is a quad XOR gate, pinout similar to > the 8400, and with corner supply pins. Yes I did. Don't ask why I thinking 86? > The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply pins). And faster too I think. I was looking at some old TTL databooks (bitsavers) and noticed it was two two bit adders glued into the same package. That was lots of transistors back then. > > The ones I come acorss most often are the 7490, 7492, 7493 counters. I don't see them often, a TTL digital clock (with nixes) comes to mind using them that may have been some early 70's magazine. > -tony > Odd how the old stuff is coming back for projects. You don't see I built a PeeCee project from scratch using ... , just "I added blinking lights to my case" as todays project. Ben alias woodelf. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 23:02:24 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:02:24 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DF7BD0.1060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ah... good to know. The PDP-8/L and -8/i have a 7483 on each M220 > card, but I remember seeing either a 74283 or, if it exists, a 74183 > in the design for that PDP-8/i work-alike I mentioned here a few weeks > ago. The difference, I would guess, is probably that the designer of > the clone didn't want to fiddle with an older, odd chip. Unicorn electronics still have 74XX listed but many of the chips are (Discontinued -- limited to stock on hand). Oddly the 7483 does not state that. They also may have 7482's -- dual adder, as I think they where used the original PDP-11. > I should probably find a source of a handful of 7483s since I have a > small stack of dead M220s. I don't know what's wrong with them yet > (probably dead 7474s if the rest of the machine is any indication), > but I'd hate to trace it to the adder and have no spares on hand. Where do most people get their spares from? > I did not realize it was a strange-power-pin part. I would have > figured it out eventually, but it's best to be forwarned. > -ethan Ben alias woodelf From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 5 23:23:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:23:06 -0500 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <25D904FA-86DB-44CA-914D-AC9DE93DC990@neurotica.com> References: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <25D904FA-86DB-44CA-914D-AC9DE93DC990@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46DF80AA.7050904@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > 8086 at 8MHz in fact. 7.16MHz, actually. (Nice even division of the base clock) >> Uses a passive-backplane motherboard. > > It does use a passive backplane for the ISA slots, but the logic board > itself isn't a card in that backplane. The logic board is on the bottom > of the machine (chips facing down, if memory serves) and that contains > nearly all of the system logic. Yes, and unfortunately the floppy interface was down there too, so you had to route a cable through Hoboken and back just to hook up the floppy drives. The machine was a rebranded Olivetti M24. And the first x86 machine I ever personally owned, so of course I know it inside and out. > I spent quite a bit of time working on those machines. They are > really, really nice. The monitors are crisp and sharp, the keyboards > are *fantastic*, and the chassis are built like tanks. Not sure I agree about the keyboard and chassis, but the monitors were to die for. Incredibly crisp. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Sep 5 23:38:58 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:38:58 -0700 Subject: 286 accelerator cards - Was : Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070905130438.A86688@shell.lmi.net> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20070905130438.A86688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <209f01c7f03f$d717de20$6a01a8c0@liberator> There was also one for the Dec-Rainbow, it went into the 8086 socket, the Turbow 286. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 5 23:57:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:57:21 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200709060057.21792.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 07:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 5, 2007, at 12:56 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of > > XT-class machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there will > > ever be a use for them. GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be > > useful for all sorts of things. I should probably seek out some data on > > these parts, or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific > > numbers? > > Datasheets for these parts aren't difficult to come by. Despite > all the hype about them having been replaced by FPGAs and CPLDs, they > are still a current product line from a few different manufacturers > (Cypress and Atmel come to mind) and are available from most of the > major distributors. > > The most popular ones seem to be the 16V8 and 22V10 (GAL16V8 and > GAL22V10). I just need some point at which to get started. I'll have a look around, then, with those numbers in mind... > It's worth noting that some CPLD families are more-or-less direct > implementations of common PAL architectures. A Xilinx XC9536 CPLD, > for example, is very similar to two of what might have been called > PAL36V18. This comes in very handy if you're experienced with PAL > design and want to move into higher-density devices. I've little experience with the current crop of programmable hardware, it's just too "out there" for most of what I'd be into doing... > The PALs that you have a pulls are likely useless because they're > one-time programmable. GALs and PALCE devices are electrically- > eraseable, and possibly some others, but not straight PALs. Sure. Unless I run into somebody who for some reason wants to repair one of those machines, or similar. But I'll use 'em as push pins before I just toss 'em out. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:13:20 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:13:20 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?) -25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 11:47, der Mouse wrote: > > [...] a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac "SCSI" connectors on > > Mac Plus and other machines. [...] > > > > Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors is, and > > wanted to get this out fast in case anyone wants it. > > The 25-pin size - the one used for the MAC SCSI you refer to, the one > called for by the mechanical portion of the RS-232 spec, the one used > for peecee parallel ports - is DB. > > Using pin count for that same pin spacing, the table is DA=15, DB=25, > DC=39 (I think), I'm thinking 37... > DD=50 (three rows), DE=9. The DE shell is also used > in a 15-pin variant ("VGA"), but the pins are spaced substantially > closer than in the DE-9. DA is probably best known for peecee joystick > connectors, but it also got used for AUI Ethernet back in the 10base5 > days, before even 10base2, much less 10baseT. DC doesn't get used much > in my experience; I think I have a few SBus cards that use it for the > fat end of their octopus cables. Didn't the original peecee's floppy adapter card have one of those on the metal bracket to connect external floppy drives with? I had an external IBM floppy drive a while back, pulled the drive out of the box to use for something, and now I have this box with a little bitty switching power supply in it and a short cable with one of those connectors on the end of it... > DD was used by Sun for SCSI back in the Sun-2 and Sun-3 era, and also got > used for IPI disks. DE is probably best known for peecee serial ports > and "VGA" video (a lot of people don't realize the shell size is the same > for those two), but I've seen it used for other things, such as Sun-3 > monochrome video. I'm sure each size has plenty of other uses I know nothing > about, too. Joystick ports on lots and lots of things, the c64, vic-20, Yamaha CX5, Atari 2600 (?) game consoles, etc. > I don't know why they are out of order. I speculate that someone > designed DA through DD, never expecting D-shell to get used for > anything under 15 pins, then had to tack on the 9-pin size later. > (Arguably they should have called it D@, but that would probably have > been too geeky. :) :-) > There exist D-shell connectors of other sizes, like the NeXT "black" > hardware video connector (which held something like 19 pins). I don't > know whether they have names in the DA..DE series; I suspect they have > no standard names because they're not standard sizes. Didn't the Atari ST machines use something odd of the sort? I'm thinking it had 23 pins but I've never actually seen one of those or worked with one. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:21:19 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:21:19 -0400 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709060121.20135.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 12:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/4/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Tuesday 04 September 2007 23:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Hope that illuminates more than obscures, > > > > Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of > > XT-class machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there > > will ever be a use for them. > > Indeed. You might check for "PALCE" - those are CMOS PALs that _can_ > be reprogrammed. Bipolar PALs by MMI and other vendors are strictly > OTP. > > You _could_ poke around the PAL with a signal generator and a logic > analyzer/logic probe/VOM/O-scope and divine the internal programming, > but, honestly, blown PALs are rarely useful out of their original > context. The only use _I_ have ever had for them is a pattern to be > able to make modifications to an existing device - I've started with > PALs for, say, an Amiga 3000, then burned a faster GAL to get rid of > video jitter - I was partially successful. I've never tried to take a > PAL out of a circuit and re-use it in a new circuit. I really had little expectation of having any use for them, though I do somewhere have manuals for that stuff -- used to be a ZDS service center back when -- and I could probably at least see what they are. I'm guessing mostly address decoding glue or similar. > > GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be useful for > > all sorts of things. > > Indeed they are. Bob Armstrong is a heavy user of GALs for the Spare > Time Gizmos line of hobby products. In the case of the Elf 2000, for > example, you can change the logic equations yourself (he provides the > source) and change the memory and/or I/O map - all of the select logic > goes through a GAL, so the memory map is mutable. > > If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or 24-pin GAL can replace > several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of being able to make > changes later that don't involve cutting traces and adding blue wires. > You lose the ability to poke around in the middle of select circuits, > and to make substantial changes, but it all depends on what your goals > for the project are if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not. You do > have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not all hobbyists have > them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob does, you should > consider selling programmed parts for those that can't burn their own. Hm, how complicated would one of those programmers be? Or expensive? This may not be something I'd want to pursue after all... :-) > > I should probably seek out some data on these parts, > > or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific numbers? > > The two most common parts I've worked with are the 18-pin Lattice GAL > 16V8 and the 24-pin Lattice GAL 22V10. There's also a 22-pin GAL > 20V8, and I do have a few pull, but I've never run into a hobby > project that uses them. I would expect to pay $1.25 for small > quantities of 16V8s and up to $3.50 for small quantities of 22V10s. > Bargains can be had, but to be honest, when I see 22V10s for under > $2.00 each, I tend to buy a few. They aren't as easy to find cheaply > as 16V8s. One type of occasional bargain are surplussed > already-programmed parts. Just throw them in your programmer, erase > them, then you are ready to go with only a couple of burn cycles > ticked off their lifetime. Sounds good. At least I can go for a better understanding of the parts. > AMD also makes (made?) the PALCE line of PLDs. They are pin > compatible with GALs, and should program in the same programmer as a > GAL. I do not know if there are any substantial technical advantages > of PALCEs over GALs or not. This is the first I can recall ever hearing of them. > In general, for non-modern circuits, a GAL is going to be fast > compared to layer after layer of TTL. For example, 15ns GALs are not > particularly fast or expensive. 15ns would be a problem for a > multi-gate address select circuit for, say, a 6502. Fortunately, with > 1MHz and 8Mhz designs and such, speed really isn't a factor, but it's > nice to know how much slack you have in your design. > > You can start here for technical details... > > http://www.latticesemi.com/products/cpldspld/gal.cfm Thanks for the link, I'll have a look... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:31:10 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:31:10 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:10, Chris M wrote: > Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor > boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that > way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on > the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary > processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you > plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, > and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading sometime in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of that family straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's all very fuzzy... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trag at io.com Thu Sep 6 00:41:42 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 00:41:42 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with In-Reply-To: <200709052201.l85M15ps024416@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709052201.l85M15ps024416@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:55:04 -0500 >From: Mark Tapley >Subject: Re: D-shell sizes >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > > >I am *so* sorry - I left off the correct letter (thought it was "B", >just wasn't sure) in hopes of *avoiding* kicking off the annual >D-shell connector nomenclature thread. > >Have we dug up the horse bones, beat them into flour, baked the flour >into bread, and punched it down enough now? > >Guess not. I'll add to the mess: Going back to your earlier topic, so I really should nest another "Was:" up there. :-) Jim's old Mac had the same kind of SCSI connector. You probably never looked closely at it at an early Geekathon. Or maybe he only brought it to the first one and brought the Outbound the next few years. Anyway, the upgrades for the 128K and 512K[E] models which provided a SCSI port, typically routed the ribbon cable around the edge of the battery compartment. A few ran the cable over the floppy connector. The more elegant ones actually provided a replacement battery compartment cover which had the DB25 connector (awww, back to the topic) mounted in the plastic cover. One removed the old battery compartment cover, routed the SCSI ribbon cable out of the case around the edge of the battery compartment and secured the new cover over the battery compartment, which gave one a DB25 connector mounted over the battery compartment. There were several SCSI upgrades for those old machines. The SCSI-only upgrades usually plugged into the ROM sockets, provided sockets on top of the upgrade daughter board for the two ROM chips and then bore a 53C80 and ribbon header. There might have been a bit more logic, but not much. IIRC, they did require that the host machine be upgraded to the later 512KE or Plus ROMs because the original 128K and 512K ROMs did not contain a SCSI port driver. Other upgrades provided additional memory as well and those typically required tapping all the CPU lines, so they either used a Killy Clip (clear plastic receptacle with embedded pins which fits snuggly over the 68000 DIP) which provided a double row of pins above the clip in the standard 64 pin DIP spacing, or they relied on headers soldered directly to the 68000 pins. My favorite was the NewLife brand upgrades because they provided eight SIMM sockets on the daughter board. If one had a 512KE, one could install the NewLife upgrade and add a SCSI port and eight SIMM sockets. Then two 1MB SIMMs and six 256KB SIMMs later, one had a 4MB (maximum) RAM equipped Mac Plus equivalent, which was supposedly somewhat faster for reasons I never really understood. The CPU ran at the same speed, but the Newlife guys claimed some part of their interface to the peripheral logic or maybe to the RAM was faster. The advantage of that memory arrangement was that back at that time (early 90s) 1 MB SIMMs were still close to $100 each, but 256KB SIMMs cost between free and $5, or $10 if one totally failed one's merchant skill. Jeff Walther From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:48:05 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:48:05 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709060148.06032.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:19, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Someone wrote: > > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) That would be the 7403, no? I never could understand why they needed two kinds of those... > I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with > "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. And 7490? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:49:53 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:49:53 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <46DE9383.26813.1A5B0E08@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <46DE9383.26813.1A5B0E08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709060149.53462.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2007 at 11:17, Chris M wrote: > > NEC APC, APC III off the top of my head. There's > > others: > > I meant systems that would load and run PC-DOS right out of the box, > i.e. "PC compatible" systems. The Grid would fall under that > heading, but not many of the others--and certainly not the NEC APC. > > The 8086 was attractive for the Grid because it came in a low-power > CMOS version--the 80c88 came along a bit later. I'm vaguely remembering an Epson machine -- Equity III? Something like that, I found out it had an 8086 in there when I went to stick a v20 in it, one client had a bunch of machines and had me do that to a number of them for him... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 01:02:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:02:22 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709060202.22967.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 15:47, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2007 at 12:48, woodelf wrote: > > I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) > > Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common > > chips with middle supply pins. > > If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to 7- > segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK > FF, 7476 = dual JK FF and almost all of the other "non-7400" TTL > stuff, such as the MC400, 500, 2000, etc. series. > > It seems to me that there was one oddball case of a 74L series chip > having a different pinout that the 74 "vanilla" flavor. Anyone > remember? Yes, though I'm not sure of the number. '95? Something like that... I do have an old TI databook around someplace but it's currently buried in some box somewhere and I have *no* idea which box at present. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 01:14:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:14:31 -0700 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?) -25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46DF3857.12798.1CDEE823@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 1:13, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Didn't the Atari ST machines use something odd of the sort? I'm thinking it > had 23 pins but I've never actually seen one of those or worked with one. 19 actually. I've still got a couple of the male versions (as well as a hood or two). ACSI connector--a somewhat perverted implementation of SCSI. I never understood why Atari had to go out and re-invent it. Anyone have one of the "gutless" Atari laser printers? Did it connect to the ACSI port or to the printer port--or somewhere else? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 01:23:32 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:23:32 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200709060223.32236.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 19:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? ... > > > > The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply > > pins). > > Ah... good to know. The PDP-8/L and -8/i have a 7483 on each M220 > card, but I remember seeing either a 74283 or, if it exists, a 74183 > in the design for that PDP-8/i work-alike I mentioned here a few weeks > ago. The difference, I would guess, is probably that the designer of > the clone didn't want to fiddle with an older, odd chip. > > I should probably find a source of a handful of 7483s since I have a > small stack of dead M220s. I don't know what's wrong with them yet > (probably dead 7474s if the rest of the machine is any indication), > but I'd hate to trace it to the adder and have no spares on hand. Are 7474s problematic for some reason? I seem to remember having a bunch of those, but I think in storage... > I did not realize it was a strange-power-pin part. I would have > figured it out eventually, but it's best to be forwarned. This seems to be as good a place as any to mention that I've got as many of those "generic" numbers as I could find any data on, along with the datasheets, here: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/by-generic-number.html Along with other stuff elsewhere nearby. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 01:28:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:28:07 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709060202.22967.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709060202.22967.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46DF3B87.25650.1CEB5AE8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 2:02, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I do have an old TI databook around someplace but it's currently buried in > some box somewhere and I have *no* idea which box at present. http://www.datasheets.org.uk/databooks/databook.php?q=32 has a 1978 Ferranti IC book that shows both vanilla and L-series pinouts. One- page-at-a-time-with-an-enter-what-you-see-displayed-prompt. But it's there. The 7486/L86 was what I was thinking of, but Tony added others. Over the years, I've run into otherwise rational people who swore that it just couldn't be--that the only major differences were speed, fanin/out and power. Another gotcha is that some "vanilla" 74xx flip-flops are level- triggered while their LS counterparts are edge-triggered. My first LED clock used 7492s and 7493s. Anyone know if the old TI TTL Databook is online anywhere? I've found some individual TTL datasheets on the TI site, but I'd like to see the whole thing as a downloadable file. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 01:52:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 01:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709060223.32236.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> <200709060223.32236.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/6/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 05 September 2007 19:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I should probably find a source of a handful of 7483s since I have a > > small stack of dead M220s. I don't know what's wrong with them yet > > (probably dead 7474s if the rest of the machine is any indication), > > but I'd hate to trace it to the adder and have no spares on hand. > > Are 7474s problematic for some reason? I seem to remember having a bunch of > those, but I think in storage... In the case of my PDP-8/L repairs, I've found the two most common ICs to find dead are the 7474s and 7440s (and there are a lot of them in there). -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 6 06:11:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:11:07 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46DFE04B.8010103@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:10, Chris M wrote: >> Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor >> boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that >> way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on >> the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary >> processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you >> plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, >> and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm > > I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading sometime > in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of that family > straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's all very > fuzzy... I've got a couple of ISA boards here with ARM1 processors on; one has Acorn Podule bus hardware fitted so that in theory it can interact with Acorn-specific expansion cards. I'm jumping in here mid-thread though so have lost some of the context - I can't think of a scenario where you plugged an entire machine (implying things like keyboard and video interfaces too) into an AT, but there were certainly all sorts of cards of the "CPU/memory/ROM/ISA interface" around onto which code could be offloaded. I suppose the question is: "when is a coprocessor card not a computer"? :-) cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Sep 6 07:48:00 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:48:00 -0500 Subject: Next Question Message-ID: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Guys, Picked up a Next Slab yesterday ... complete with a couple boxed versions of NextStep. Got it to boot up - It was configured to prompt for a username and password - which of course I didn't have. I managed to restart it into single-user mode, and used "passwd root" to change the root password. I also looked at /etc/passwd and noted that "me" didn't have a password (blank field). I did confirm that after "passwd root" the encrypted string in /etc/passwd was changed. On restarting in multi-user mode, I was still unable to login to the graphical interface - neither "root" with the password I had set, or "me" with no password would work. Restarted in single-user mode - this time I dug around on the net and found information to use "nu -m" to set the password. I reset the root password (again), and also reset the "me" password to a null string. Looking at /etc/passwd I noted that the password field for "me" was no longer blank but now has an encrypted field (isn't no password supposed to be represented by a blank field). Now the system boots up in multiuser mode and automatically logs in as "me" - so I got to play with NextStep which is kindof interesting (mouse is painfully slow however). Ideally, I'd like to have it prompt for login name so that I could login as either root or me - anyone know: - How to configure it back to having a login screen - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical interface after I had just set the password (and yes, I checked that the password was entered correctly) Thanks, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 08:03:03 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:03:03 -0600 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: assign a password to the me user. If "me" has a blank password it will autolog-in On 9/6/07, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Picked up a Next Slab yesterday ... complete with a couple > boxed versions of NextStep. > > Got it to boot up - It was configured to prompt for a > username and password - which of course I didn't have. > > I managed to restart it into single-user mode, and used > "passwd root" to change the root password. I also looked > at /etc/passwd and noted that "me" didn't have a password > (blank field). I did confirm that after "passwd root" the > encrypted string in /etc/passwd was changed. > > On restarting in multi-user mode, I was still unable to > login to the graphical interface - neither "root" with > the password I had set, or "me" with no password would > work. > > Restarted in single-user mode - this time I dug around on > the net and found information to use "nu -m" to set the > password. > > I reset the root password (again), and also reset the > "me" password to a null string. Looking at /etc/passwd > I noted that the password field for "me" was no longer > blank but now has an encrypted field (isn't no password > supposed to be represented by a blank field). > > Now the system boots up in multiuser mode and automatically > logs in as "me" - so I got to play with NextStep which is > kindof interesting (mouse is painfully slow however). > > Ideally, I'd like to have it prompt for login name so that > I could login as either root or me - anyone know: > - How to configure it back to having a login screen > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, > I checked that the password was entered correctly) > > Thanks, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Sep 6 08:10:50 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:10:50 -0300 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > reason I am not using the CPLD's is the PCB package > I am using does not have a 84 Pin PLCC thru the hole > footprint. Which pcb package are you using, Ben? Have you tried diptrace? :) From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 07:47:05 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:47:05 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> On Sep 5, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I received two orphan 320K keyboard/display units a few years ago > (no logic unit). > Hobbled up a little level-shifting hardware and wrote some > calculator code to > drive them from a SWTPC 6800 - in other words the 6800 was > replacing the > missing logic unit. Worked fine but the next (intended) step was to > redo it > all in a microcontroller and stuff it inside the 320K case so it > would be a > stand-alone 'modern' nixie desktop calculator. Would be kinda nice > because the > 320K KDUs have a small footprint compared to other nixie desktop > calcs. There > is very little spare room in the case however. I think I > anticipated it would be > feasible if one used an external wal-wart (ugly) for the power > transformer. > The KDUs are very well built: cast aluminum case, micro-switches > for the keys... Cool idea. Did you find the hardware interface documented somewhere, or did you reverse engineer it somehow? Was it something standard like RS-232? From drb at msu.edu Thu Sep 6 08:32:02 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:32:02 -0400 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:48:00 CDT.) <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200709061332.l86DW2Vh029435@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, > I checked that the password was entered correctly) Not sure about single-user mode, but normally, NeXT machines use nis/yp for authentication, so the fact that the /etc/passwd file was updated isn't all that helpful. The nidump and niload commands might be of interest to you in understanding this. Also, there are other tables besides passwd stored in nis. De From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 08:56:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:56:43 -0400 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46E0071B.6000904@gmail.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Picked up a Next Slab yesterday ... complete with a couple > boxed versions of NextStep. > > Got it to boot up - It was configured to prompt for a > username and password - which of course I didn't have. > > I managed to restart it into single-user mode, and used > "passwd root" to change the root password. I also looked > at /etc/passwd and noted that "me" didn't have a password > (blank field). I did confirm that after "passwd root" the > encrypted string in /etc/passwd was changed. > > On restarting in multi-user mode, I was still unable to > login to the graphical interface - neither "root" with > the password I had set, or "me" with no password would > work. > > Restarted in single-user mode - this time I dug around on > the net and found information to use "nu -m" to set the > password. > > I reset the root password (again), and also reset the > "me" password to a null string. Looking at /etc/passwd > I noted that the password field for "me" was no longer > blank but now has an encrypted field (isn't no password > supposed to be represented by a blank field). > > Now the system boots up in multiuser mode and automatically > logs in as "me" - so I got to play with NextStep which is > kindof interesting (mouse is painfully slow however). > > Ideally, I'd like to have it prompt for login name so that > I could login as either root or me - anyone know: > - How to configure it back to having a login screen > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, > I checked that the password was entered correctly) If memory serves, you need to use Netinfo to do all of this stuff. Exactly how you go about it is something I don't remember clearly, but it's definitely in Netinfo Manager somewhere. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:00:04 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:00:04 -0400 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <200709061332.l86DW2Vh029435@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> <200709061332.l86DW2Vh029435@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <46E007E4.6020905@gmail.com> Dennis Boone wrote: > > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical > > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, > > I checked that the password was entered correctly) > > Not sure about single-user mode, but normally, NeXT machines use nis/yp > for authentication, so the fact that the /etc/passwd file was updated > isn't all that helpful. > > The nidump and niload commands might be of interest to you in > understanding this. Also, there are other tables besides passwd stored > in nis. NIS/YP and NetInfo aren't *exactly* the same thing. Peace... Sridhar From rickb at bensene.com Thu Sep 6 09:13:17 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:13:17 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com><46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> Message-ID: The keyboard/display units were simple -- WAY more simple than serial RS-232. Logic levels were not TTL (remember, these machines were made with all-transistor...no IC's anywhere either the keyboard/display units, nor the electronics package). RS-232 serial did exist back then, but IC UARTs didn't exist, and everything had to be implemented using transistor logic, which could fill a small drawer full of circuit boards alone. If you wanted to interface with one of the 300-Series keyboard/display units, you'd have to design some level shifters to make standard TTL (or whatever) levels. The interface to the display was a 4 bit digit select (selects which nixie tube is to light up), and a 4-bit BCD code for the number to light up in that nixie tube. Since the display was multiplexed, you just incremented the digit select, and sequentially presented the digits to be displayed on each tube. The timing was somewhat important, as Nixie tubes have some on/off duty-cycle timing issues, and the cycle rate has to be fast enough that the display looks continuous, but not too fast, or the digits won't be at full brightness. The keyboard was encoded by a diode array to a 6-bit code, and a signal indicating when a key has been pressed. There were also a few toggle switches on the keyboard that selected various operational modes which were just unconditioned switch closures. The keyboard switches were microswitches, which switch pretty cleanly, but still a little conditioning is needed to get reliable key entry (e.g., a bit of delay after the "key pressed" signal goes active before sampling the keycode). The keyboard/display unit has a cable that comes out of it that terminates in a telco-style (similar to old Centronics printer connectors, but with a different number of pins). Power for logic and Nixie drive (about +250V) was provided through the cable, as well as all of the other signals. I believe Brent Hilpert has derived schematics of the display, the keyboard, and pinout of the connector of one of the Model 320K keyboard/display units, which is has online on his website. Check out: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calctd/Wang320K/index.html By the way, early design 300-series calculator keyboard/display units had cast metal cabinets. Later, the design was changed to a heavy cast-plastic cabinet for cost savings. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Heller > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:47 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Wang 300 Calc > > > On Sep 5, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > I received two orphan 320K keyboard/display units a few > years ago (no > > logic unit). > > Hobbled up a little level-shifting hardware and wrote some > calculator > > code to drive them from a SWTPC 6800 - in other words the 6800 was > > replacing the missing logic unit. Worked fine but the next > (intended) > > step was to redo it all in a microcontroller and stuff it > inside the > > 320K case so it would be a stand-alone 'modern' nixie desktop > > calculator. Would be kinda nice because the 320K KDUs have a small > > footprint compared to other nixie desktop calcs. There is > very little > > spare room in the case however. I think I anticipated it would be > > feasible if one used an external wal-wart (ugly) for the power > > transformer. > > The KDUs are very well built: cast aluminum case, > micro-switches for > > the keys... > > Cool idea. Did you find the hardware interface documented > somewhere, or did you reverse engineer it somehow? Was it > something standard like RS-232? > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 09:22:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:22:22 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sep 6, 2007, at 1:31 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor >> boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that >> way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on >> the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary >> processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you >> plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, >> and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm > > I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading > sometime > in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of that > family > straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's all very > fuzzy... Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump Card. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 09:21:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:21:04 -0400 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <46E007E4.6020905@gmail.com> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> <200709061332.l86DW2Vh029435@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <46E007E4.6020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93DC389B-6BA3-4033-8384-4A8247488550@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 10:00 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical >> > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, >> > I checked that the password was entered correctly) >> Not sure about single-user mode, but normally, NeXT machines use >> nis/yp >> for authentication, so the fact that the /etc/passwd file was updated >> isn't all that helpful. >> The nidump and niload commands might be of interest to you in >> understanding this. Also, there are other tables besides passwd >> stored >> in nis. > > NIS/YP and NetInfo aren't *exactly* the same thing. They're nowhere near the same thing, though they perform similar functions. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:38:27 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:38:27 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> On 05/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Not all are, but they were available. Still are, if you want to get an > IBM Bladecenter JS20. Just not in a Mac. They aren't now, as they're all Intel Core2 today. They were, though: http://lowendmac.com/ppc/g5-dual.html http://lowendmac.com/ppc/g5-quad.html > > z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. > > > > Am I just blind today or something? > > I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* > > I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now than > it ever has in the past. It may well be, yes. But is it not more relevant to ask: [1] how large is its proportional market share now compared to 5, 10, 20, 30y ago? I don't have any figures, but I bet its %age of the market /now/ is tiny compared to in the 1970s. [2] how many new green-field deployments are happening? > Also, in other messages in this thread, people have been saying stuff to > the effect that pSeries and zSeries aren't architecturally all that > different anymore. Anyone who says that hasn't used zSeries hardware. Well, it's a fair cop, I haven't. But then, this discussion at least started out as one about CPUs. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:40:23 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:40:23 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709060740s4050406bn171cece4a346704b@mail.gmail.com> On 04/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > Looking back, the POWER lines for Apple were starting to be more of a > nuisance for IBM. I do not think anyone was crying in Fishkill when > the news came down about the Mac architecture change. Because IBM is /renowned/ for its long-term vision of the future of the PC industry. It's been right so many times, with the PS/2, for instance. I think its own estimation of its skills and knowledge of the PC business is amply demonstrated by its sale of its PC division to Lenovo. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:43:35 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:43:35 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net> <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, Chris M wrote: > I had been wondering if there were > boards for a pc that supplemented the operation of the > onboard mpu by providing another processor > altoghether, and in no way replacing the old 8088, > thereby in effect giving you 2 pc's in one. Of course > there were z80 boards, 68k? boards that accomplished > this. There were the HP Viper 82300 and Hyper-Viper 82324 68K based boards for running Rocky Mountain BASIC on a PC. ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html (I hope people have archived the above directory for the day when that info disappears...) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:58:41 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:58:41 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709060758q4502edbdmcf21cdea7565af6b@mail.gmail.com> On 04/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 04 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 04/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > > > > > > > > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the > > > > > real POWER processors. > > > > > > > > Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important > > > > riders on to that. > > > > > > > > [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm > > > > not sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a > > > > 2-core POWER4, AIUI > > > > > > As I've read, the 601 is more POWER than the rest of the PPC chips. > > > Still much slower and dumbed down than the proper POWER (non-PC) > > > versions. > > > > Can you give some supporting evidence for that assertion? I've been > > following the development of POWER and PowerPC since their first > > announcements, and as far as I can see, the process has been one of > > gradual convergence. The PPC601 was a single-chip implementation of > > what was still a processor /chipset/ on the IBM side - IIRC, I think > > the contemporary IBM processor was spread over 5 chips or something. > > I don't feel like looking this up. Go look at SPECfp numbers for PPC > and POWER chips of the same era, for a starting point. There's also a > number of POWER architecture descriptions floating around the internet > which detail differences. > > > > And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. > > > > I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. > > I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; > > given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the > > POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did > > not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. > > PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but > > is a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. > > The POWER4 is dual core, the original G5 is single core. The newest G5 > is dual core. IBM didn't make ANY quad-core processors until the > POWER5+. Whoops! I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. I was getting my early versus my late models muddled up. I humbly apologise. > > I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER > > can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs > > such as OS/400 or zOS. > > The POWER chips have a bunch of hypervisor goo, and many, many MBs of L3 > cache on the multicore versions. > > > > I guess a > > > dual-core G5 is close to a POWER4, but it's still lacking some > > > things, like cache. > > > > (?) The 970 has onboard primary and secondary cache. In the first > > model, 64KB of direct-mapped L1 instruction cache and 32KB of L1 data > > cache, plus 512KB of 2-way associative L2 cache. > > I wasn't say it was without *any* cache. It just has a lot less than > POWER4. No one builds modern processors without ANY cache, that'd just > be silly. Fair call. I think your phrasing was ambiguous, though: "it's still lacking some things, like cache." I have seen references to a cacheless Intel Celeron Ultra-Low-Voltage, but I can't find mention of it now. > > > And, the G5 has VMX/Altivec, which the POWER4 doesn't. > > > Mostly, the POWER4 was designed to be a enterprise server grade > > > CPU, and the G5 is designed to be a consumer-grade CPU. There's a > > > lot of trade-offs that they made when designing one vs the other. > > > > They discuss the tradeoffs between POWER4 and PPC970 in some detail. > > The PPC is and always has been a desktop processor for the retail > > consumer market; its rivals were the Athlon64 and Pentium 4D. As such > > it's tuned towards different demands than the POWER4, which is aimed > > for expensive, non-cost-sensitive IBM servers, minis and mainframes - > > not that there's a lot of difference between those 3 categories > > today. > > > > To copy the 1st article I link's summary of the differences: "In sum, > > the 970 is made to be faster, cheaper, and significantly less > > reliable than the Power4." > > Why should I read those? That was the exact point I was trying to make. Well, because it makes points like this: "One of the MPF seminar attendees, David Wang of RWT, revealed some interesting information in a *very recent article* on the 970. Allow me to summarize: As it turns out, at some tasks the PPC 970 will actually outperform its big brother, the Power4, because the 970 is made to run at higher clock rates. Apparently, in order to increase the reliability of the Power4 for the high-end server market, IBM used much thicker gate oxides on the chip's transistors. The trade-off for this decreased failure rate and improved reliability was that the Power4's transistors have slower switching speeds, so even with process shrinks it's harder to push the design to higher clock speeds. Since the 970 is made for the desktop market, there's no need for such measures and therefore the new chip's clock speed will scale much higher than the Power4's. In sum, the 970 is made to be faster, cheaper, and significantly less reliable than the Power4. (Of course, when I say "significantly less reliable than the Power4," you have to understand that this puts the 970's product life and failure rate on par with other mainstream CPUs, since the Power4's increased gate oxide thickness makes it significantly more reliable than most mainstream CPUs.)" The *very recent article* is here: http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?AID=RWT101502203725 Which states that IBM, at the PPC970 launch, said: "In the case of the PowerPC 970, the processor does not need to meet similar reliability requirements as the POWER4 processor, and as a consequence, circuit and process technology can be tweaked to obtain higher performance by trading away the near-absolute reliability required by the POWER4 processor." > > > The POWER5 and POWER6 are quite a bit more interesting than any > > > PowerPC chip. In a somewhat theoretical sense, perhaps, yes. > > Yes, arguably, but now Apple has abandoned the PPC, it's dead in the > > water as far as the desktop is concerned, so it won't really evolve > > any further. (Which I think is a great shame.) > > POWER5 and POWER6 have evolved quite a bit from where POWER4 was. IBM > made a lot more money selling POWER processors, systems, and consulting > to go with it, than they ever did with selling PPC chips to apple. IBM > was dragging their feet with PPC features on the G5 (and whatever would > have been G6), which is why Apple abandoned them; if IBM was making > enough money from Apple on their G5s, I'm sure that they would have > payed more attention to what Apple wanted (like low-power noteboot > CPUs). Right now, PowerPC is selling like never before, as it's the basis of the Xbox360, Playstation 3 and Nintendo Wii. It's shipping millions of units - maybe tens of millions. After their year or two in the sun, though, I think it might subside into something of a minority niche. > > On the other hand, in the embedded market, there are fascinating > > chips like PA Semi's PWRficient line. > > > > http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5907281.html > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/pasemi_power/print.html > > > > These will carry the torch forward for PPC, but we won't find them in > > any affordable desktop machines. > > Depends on what you mean by "affordable". Easily more affordable than > an inflation-adjusted IBM 5150 or similar. About the only company even claiming to make personal computers based around PowerPC now are Amiga-compatibles. Amiga's products are vapourware, as far as I can tell. At least you can buy Genesi EFIKA boxes. They're years away from any of the state-of-the-art stuff we've been discussing, though. They're looking at well-sub-1GHz SoC processors. > > > > [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on > > > > PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX > > > > makes a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for > > > > day-to-day use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 > > > > except as a server - as a workstation running Motif or something, > > > > it wouldn't be much use on the desktop today. > > > > > > Interesting depends on what you mean by it. > > > > Well, of course, but I went on to define what I meant in the same > > sentence on the same line. Desktop-relevant stuff that I can actually > > use. I'm reading and writing this on a web page; for the 2007 Web, I > > need a modern CSS2-capable browser, Flash, Javascript, Java, > > RealPlayer, QuickTime and Windows Media support. OS X delivers those; > > even PowerPC Linux, probably the most-widely-supported desktop Unix > > environment on PPC, does not. > > Whether or not you need Flash is a matter of debate... but a lot of that > can be handled by firefox, IBM's PPC JREs, and mplayer/xine. Who needs > three separate media players, when you can use one of two OSS players, > and play almost anything. I hear that the OSS flash player is even > very close to being able to play youtube/google flash videos. But, > alas, this still doesn't make a platform intersting to me. OK. Clearly we find very different things of relevance. I found PowerPC of interest because it was the Other Desktop Platform. It is no longer. Now, pretty much, the desktop is x86 from horizon to horizon, with a soupcon of ARM in a few low-power handheld and pocket devices. I think that's a damned shame. I personally use towers and notebooks. My clients, generally small businesses, use PCs and the occasional Mac. That means x86 all the way, with x86-64 starting to show on the horizon now. So what happens in big enterprise iron is of little direct import or interest to me. > > > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more > > > interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, > > > I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided > > > PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k > > > for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) > > > > A snag! > > > > I find these to be academically interesting OSs, ones I'd like to > > work with and know more about, but neither I nor my small-business > > clients have any direct personal or professional use or need for > > them. Unlike a Mac. > > Who said personal/professional use? I though that people collected > computers because they were "interesting", not just because they were > useful. I daresay most do. Me, I don't collect it unless I have some *use* for it, even if that's just in theory. I have Atari machines I've never turned on, because I wanted to play with MINT and the like. Maybe one day I'll have time... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 10:01:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:01:25 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >>> z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. >>> >>> Am I just blind today or something? >> I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* >> >> I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now than >> it ever has in the past. > > It may well be, yes. But is it not more relevant to ask: > [1] how large is its proportional market share now compared to 5, 10, > 20, 30y ago? I don't have any figures, but I bet its %age of the > market /now/ is tiny compared to in the 1970s. It depends on how you define the market for a mainframe. It's not the same market as for a Windows PC, and it never was. > [2] how many new green-field deployments are happening? Many, many, MANY more than before. Less profit per install, but many, many more installs. Read up on zLinux and what it's doing to the market for mainframes. Peace... Sridhar From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Sep 6 10:22:20 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:22:20 -0500 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <200709061414.l86EEnBR040396@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709061414.l86EEnBR040396@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 9:14 -0500 9/6/07, Dave wrote: >Now the system boots up in multiuser mode and automatically >logs in as "me" - so I got to play with NextStep which is >kindof interesting (mouse is painfully slow however). All the below applies to NS 3.3, don't recall for earlier versions (none of which are recommended, with some minor caveats) One of the "Dock" icons should be a clock/calendar (or some subset thereof). Double-click that, and it'll bring up "localization preferences". Click on the mouse, and you can change the mouse speed. People always comment on how fast my mouse is... As others have said, if a "me" password is set, you get the login screen. If not, it logs you straight in as "me", which is not a recommended way to run the machine (but if you've got boxed versions, you can always rebuild the HD...) To set the password, go back to Localization Preferences, and click on the padlock. To create other accounts, I always use UserManager (found in the NextAdmin folder). -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Sep 6 10:35:43 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:35:43 -0500 Subject: After Next Question Message-ID: ...and once you have an account set up... use NeXTAdmin/Hostmanager (click on the local.. menu item) to set up your ip address (no DHCP, sorry). ftp to ftp.peak.org, login as anonymous cd /pub/next-ftp/next browse away. Recommended: /apps/internet/www/OmniWeb gets you a web browser, which you can then use to hit http://www.distributed.net go to Download, then "Official Distributed.net clients", and you can pick up the current NeXT client and start crunching Optimal Golomb Ruler candidates. You need never waste another 68040 clock cycle! -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 11:14:48 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:14:48 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF3B87.25650.1CEB5AE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709060202.22967.rtellason@verizon.net> <46DF3B87.25650.1CEB5AE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E02778.8040609@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Anyone know if the old TI TTL Databook is online anywhere? I've > found some individual TTL datasheets on the TI site, but I'd like to > see the whole thing as a downloadable file. Bitsavers does. It looks around 1970 ish, but it is rather BIG. BTW* Does anybody know if "Designing with TTL integrated circuits" by TI is online? > Cheers, > Chuck Ben alias Woodelf * I hope not in Australia for a hardcopy. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 11:20:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:20:11 -0600 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca> <010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46E028BB.9000002@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> reason I am not using the CPLD's is the PCB package >> I am using does not have a 84 Pin PLCC thru the hole >> footprint. > > Which pcb package are you using, Ben? Have you tried diptrace? :) < cheap > You mean a PCB program that costs money. < /cheap > I've looked at most and I don't need to pay $$$$ when I got a Free program here. The problem with the PLCC footprint is the socket has weird pin numbering on the corners. Ben alias woodelf. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 11:34:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:34:49 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net>, <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> Seems to me that there was also a Burroughs (branded?) machine with a proporietary (i.e. Burroughs legacy architecture) board. How about S/370 emulator cards? --Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Sep 6 12:32:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:32:02 -0300 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca><010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46E028BB.9000002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <018901c7f0ac$3b2944f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > < cheap > > You mean a PCB program that costs money. > < /cheap > No, it is free up to a reasonable sized size/pincount. Take a look, it costs nothing to look and Stanslaw is a nice guy (the developer). > I've looked at most and I don't need to pay $$$$ when I got a > Free program here. The problem with the PLCC footprint is the > socket has weird pin numbering on the corners. I use to create my own components here, I use some oddballs and not always I can find a ready-made component :( From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 12:55:48 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:55:48 -0600 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <018901c7f0ac$3b2944f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca><010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46E028BB.9000002@jetnet.ab.ca> <018901c7f0ac$3b2944f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46E03F24.4070504@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > No, it is free up to a reasonable sized size/pincount. Take a look, > it costs nothing to look and Stanslaw is a nice guy (the developer). I am thinking the design I will be several boards 8 x 10 inches this first one 40 74LS chips. This more the medium sized project. >> I've looked at most and I don't need to pay $$$$ when I got a >> Free program here. The problem with the PLCC footprint is the >> socket has weird pin numbering on the corners. I plan later to do that with the PLCC socket but I have find the pinout for it again on the web. > I use to create my own components here, I use some oddballs and not > always I can find a ready-made component :( From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:15:22 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:15:22 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >>> z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. > >>> > >>> Am I just blind today or something? > >> I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* > >> > >> I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now than > >> it ever has in the past. > > > > It may well be, yes. But is it not more relevant to ask: > > [1] how large is its proportional market share now compared to 5, 10, > > 20, 30y ago? I don't have any figures, but I bet its %age of the > > market /now/ is tiny compared to in the 1970s. > > It depends on how you define the market for a mainframe. It's not the > same market as for a Windows PC, and it never was. Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is infinitisemal compared to what it once what. Even if they're shifting a million seats a year, which I really very much doubt, they're doing so in a market of hundreds of millions of users a year of other platforms. It's marginal. It may be high-margin, but it's a tiny drop in a big ocean. I think to describe a 33yo OS with a minute market share as a legacy system is a fair call, even if it is still in active development and being actively sold. > > [2] how many new green-field deployments are happening? > > Many, many, MANY more than before. Less profit per install, but many, > many more installs. Read up on zLinux and what it's doing to the market > for mainframes. All right, up to a point, yes. I've been watching the progress of Linux on S/390 and zSeries with some interest. I still don't reckon it's a very significant market share, and furthermore, every site running primarily or totally on Linux/390 is a site that's running less on actual IBM OSs. Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:21:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:21:41 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net>, <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E04535.8020007@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about S/370 emulator cards? I believe the S/370 8-bit card was an off-the-shelf processor running custom microcode. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:22:15 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:22:15 +0100 Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? Message-ID: <575131af0709061122j62b954e5t2ef830ff515cbc7a@mail.gmail.com> I have a VESA multi-I/O board on eBay at the mo', and a clutch of PCMCIA cards, mostly 3c589D NICs. On eBay UK. Items: - 270163133234 - 270163148732 - 270163155958 (I hope this is not against list rules, but AFAICR, I've not seen any list rules...) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:24:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:24:34 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >> It depends on how you define the market for a mainframe. It's not the >> same market as for a Windows PC, and it never was. > > Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up to > you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > infinitisemal compared to what it once what. The problem is that "users" is a somewhat nebulous concept when it comes to mainframes, and "seats" is a completely meaningless measure when it comes to mainframes. The average non-computer-using American probably accesses a mainframe at least a dozen times a week. More if you use a computer. It's not that there's a lot of mainframes out there, it's that they're quite pervasive. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:29:25 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:29:25 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >> It depends on how you define the market for a mainframe. It's not the > >> same market as for a Windows PC, and it never was. > > > > Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up to > > you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > > infinitisemal compared to what it once what. > > The problem is that "users" is a somewhat nebulous concept when it comes > to mainframes, and "seats" is a completely meaningless measure when it > comes to mainframes. The average non-computer-using American probably > accesses a mainframe at least a dozen times a week. More if you use a > computer. > > It's not that there's a lot of mainframes out there, it's that they're > quite pervasive. All right, conceded. But I suspect that there is a user count involved somewhere for licensing purposes! Re your point about accessing a mainframe - that would generally be very indirectly, though, no? They access a web server or an ATM or something, that probably talks to another server, that talks to a mainframe. Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer models instead. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 6 13:31:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:31:19 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 06 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up > to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > infinitisemal compared to what it once what. > > Even if they're shifting a million seats a year, which I really very > much doubt, they're doing so in a market of hundreds of millions of > users a year of other platforms. It's marginal. It may be > high-margin, but it's a tiny drop in a big ocean. How do you count "number of users" on a payroll system? There's probably only a couple of users, but it's the number of people who get paid which matters... Number of users isn't always a useful benchmark. > All right, up to a point, yes. I've been watching the progress of > Linux on S/390 and zSeries with some interest. I still don't reckon > it's a very significant market share, and furthermore, every site > running primarily or totally on Linux/390 is a site that's running > less on actual IBM OSs. Unless they're running the typical Linux/390 environment under zVM. >From what I'm told, this is the most common arrangement, and lets IBM still sell large amounts of VM while customers are running Linux on the end layer. > Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling > that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR > under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is > probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. Yeah, but zVM isn't free any more than zOS is. In effect, "zLinux" is helping IBM sell zVM. (And, more importantly to IBM, helping to sell maintenance contracts, and consulting work). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 13:34:06 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:34:06 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E04535.8020007@gmail.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net>, <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> <46E04535.8020007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E0481E.6020805@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> How about S/370 emulator cards? > > I believe the S/370 8-bit card was an off-the-shelf processor running > custom microcode. The rumor I heard it was a 68000 with different microcode. That was the first and last time I heard of it. > Peace... Sridhar Ben alias woodelf From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 6 13:36:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:36:48 -0600 Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:22:15 +0100. <575131af0709061122j62b954e5t2ef830ff515cbc7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I also have some VLB cards that are free for cost of shipping. I'm in 84106. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 13:44:09 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:44:09 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology Message-ID: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 How to make an unreliable medium even LESS reliable. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:44:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:44:58 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >> It's not that there's a lot of mainframes out there, it's that they're >> quite pervasive. > > All right, conceded. > > But I suspect that there is a user count involved somewhere for > licensing purposes! Well, sort of. There are actually different ways of doing it, but if memory serves, the most popular is by prcoessor-load. There's even still a small but enthusiastic group of users who trade compute time. > Re your point about accessing a mainframe - that would generally be > very indirectly, though, no? They access a web server or an ATM or > something, that probably talks to another server, that talks to a > mainframe. Yes. Definitely. > Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider > the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer > models instead. The benefit of recent mainframe software architecture is that you can run all of the upstream layers on one machine. Run the web server on Linux, with transaction management or application backend running on VSE with the backend database on MVS. Run the whole rigamarole in LPARs or, most popularly, in VM guests. Each OS doing what it does best. Without that advance, I don't think there would be nearly as many mainframes out there as there are. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:50:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:50:11 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46E04BE3.9060700@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling >> that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR >> under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is >> probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. > > Yeah, but zVM isn't free any more than zOS is. In effect, "zLinux" is > helping IBM sell zVM. (And, more importantly to IBM, helping to sell > maintenance contracts, and consulting work). I suspect it's probably actually helping to sell z/OS too. z/OS does high-performance database work much better than Linux. Why have a separate database server and a separate web server when you can do both on the same machine and have them talk to each other over high-speed intra-machine links instead of much slower LAN or cluster interconnect hardware? Linux has definitely started to displace z/VSE though. There's a bit too much overlap. I have seen installation with all three (and sometimes even z/TPF and others) on the same machine for the same application systems. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:08:12 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:08:12 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 06 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up > > to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > > infinitisemal compared to what it once what. > > > > Even if they're shifting a million seats a year, which I really very > > much doubt, they're doing so in a market of hundreds of millions of > > users a year of other platforms. It's marginal. It may be > > high-margin, but it's a tiny drop in a big ocean. > > How do you count "number of users" on a payroll system? There's > probably only a couple of users, but it's the number of people who get > paid which matters... Is it? Even if none of those people access said computer in any way? I don't know any metric, off the top of my head, that attempts to measure systems' importance. What matters, what sets prices, is users, number of processors, number of systems, things like that. This is what determines sales charts and so on. Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. Take the mainframe away, lots of people would be inconvenienced, yes. But the same is true of those millions of PCs. > > All right, up to a point, yes. I've been watching the progress of > > Linux on S/390 and zSeries with some interest. I still don't reckon > > it's a very significant market share, and furthermore, every site > > running primarily or totally on Linux/390 is a site that's running > > less on actual IBM OSs. > > Unless they're running the typical Linux/390 environment under zVM. > >From what I'm told, this is the most common arrangement, and lets IBM > still sell large amounts of VM while customers are running Linux on the > end layer. > > > Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling > > that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR > > under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is > > probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. > > Yeah, but zVM isn't free any more than zOS is. In effect, "zLinux" is > helping IBM sell zVM. (And, more importantly to IBM, helping to sell > maintenance contracts, and consulting work). No argument there. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:09:11 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 > > How to make an unreliable medium even LESS reliable. Hehe - I remember seeing those advertised in computer magazines way back when. I used to do the same thing sometimes, only I used a drill. Either that, or a paper cutter could cut the entire corner off the disk. Funny thing was, disks modified in this fashion never gave me any problems. I know that the media is different, and that it should have been unreliable, but, back then anyway, it worked just fine. I even remember reading an old disk as recently as last year, and it still worked. I never had the problem with floppies ten years ago that I have now with brand new disks. I think that at some point, the quality of the media just went through the floor. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:09:49 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:09:49 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I think to describe a 33yo OS How old is Unix now? Or Windows for that matter? -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:11:42 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:11:42 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >> It's not that there's a lot of mainframes out there, it's that they're > >> quite pervasive. > > > > All right, conceded. > > > > But I suspect that there is a user count involved somewhere for > > licensing purposes! > > Well, sort of. There are actually different ways of doing it, but if > memory serves, the most popular is by prcoessor-load. There's even > still a small but enthusiastic group of users who trade compute time. > > > Re your point about accessing a mainframe - that would generally be > > very indirectly, though, no? They access a web server or an ATM or > > something, that probably talks to another server, that talks to a > > mainframe. > > Yes. Definitely. > > > Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider > > the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer > > models instead. > > The benefit of recent mainframe software architecture is that you can > run all of the upstream layers on one machine. Run the web server on > Linux, with transaction management or application backend running on VSE > with the backend database on MVS. Run the whole rigamarole in LPARs or, > most popularly, in VM guests. Each OS doing what it does best. Without > that advance, I don't think there would be nearly as many mainframes out > there as there are. I am sure you're right. I've read lots about this myself. But from what I have read, it is not actually selling that many new mainframes. I've read figures of single-digit sales per year. It may be millions of US$ worth of business but it's not many actual systems. Indeed I think a fair bit of this sort of consolidation is happening by way of outsourcing to 3rd party datacentres - possibly on machines still owned by IBM. Yes, it's doing well. We are still not talking large volumes, though, by /any/ measure. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:16:40 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:16:40 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061216k2383a944x72d7ee3576a26f9e@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > I think to describe a 33yo OS > > How old is Unix now? Or Windows for that matter? Windows 1: 1985. 22y old. Current version is a derivative of NT, released 1993; 14y old. Unix: depends who you ask. The C version is from 1973, so it's 1y older than MVS, but some of the mainframe heritage goes back over 40y. But I'd submit that Unix and Windows have come vastly further from their origins than any mainframe OS. Multiple complete rewrites, complete changes of look, feel and capabilities, changes of platform, etc. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:16:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:16:45 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I am sure you're right. I've read lots about this myself. But from > what I have read, it is not actually selling that many new mainframes. > I've read figures of single-digit sales per year. Maybe single digit sales for Unisys. Oh yeah, they still make mainframes... -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:17:48 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:17:48 +0100 Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0709061122j62b954e5t2ef830ff515cbc7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061217j4bcd824al2b324458896c41d@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Richard wrote: > I also have some VLB cards that are free for cost of shipping. I'm in > 84106. The starting price on my card is UK$0.01, which is as near as damnit free. If anyone actually wants it and it doesn't fetch at least a penny, they can have it for free too. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:18:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 286 accelerator cards - Was : Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <209f01c7f03f$d717de20$6a01a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <477067.73858.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Geoff Reed wrote: > There was also one for the Dec-Rainbow, it went into > the 8086 socket, the > Turbow 286. Did this by any chance offer some degree of IBM compatibility, or was it just a speed-up? There were at least a couple of '286 upgrades for the Texas Instruments Professional Computer. Turns out there were also '286 versions of the TI PC and TI PPC. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:19:00 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:19:00 +0100 Subject: MAC emulation? In-Reply-To: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> References: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061219t2c00ef87xe457588679e905f4@mail.gmail.com> On 05/09/07, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for > one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. > My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC > which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these > applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and > a MIDI interface? Emulation: several. Basilisk II is the best-regarded, I believe. But MIDI - very little chance, I think. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:19:36 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <993638.16679.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I > stopped reading sometime > in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the > numbers of that family > straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some > sort. It's all very > fuzzy... Speaking of Byte, there was a Circuit Cellar project board based around a MC68020. I think it may have been a graphics coprocessor, really don't remember. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:24:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DFE04B.8010103@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm jumping in here mid-thread though so have lost > some of the context - I > can't think of a scenario where you plugged an > entire machine (implying things > like keyboard and video interfaces too) into an AT, > but there were certainly > all sorts of cards of the "CPU/memory/ROM/ISA > interface" around onto which > code could be offloaded. What was the purpose of offloading in this context? Simply acceleration? No, I can't think of any "whole puters" that could get plugged into a pc or at either, just thought I'd ask. But keep in mind you don't really need a distinct k/b and screen to do that. Years later they were quite common. I think it was Orange Micro or AST that came out w/286 Nubus cards for the early Nubus equipped Macs. I never bothered to get mine working, but I'm guessing the environment ran in a window on the Mac desktop. Nevertheless I think it would be very kewell to plug a whole 'nother puter into something vintij. Very kewell. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 14:25:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070906122109.H36602@shell.lmi.net> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 > > How to make an unreliable medium even LESS reliable. On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Funny thing was, disks modified in this fashion never > gave me any problems. I know that the media is > different, and that it should have been unreliable, > but, back then anyway, it worked just fine. I even > remember reading an old disk as recently as last year, > and it still worked. The difference in coercivity of 720K v 1.4M is slight - 600 v ~730, as opposed to 300 v 600 for 360K v 1.2M. Therefore, you can usually get away with the reduction in reliability, where you couldn't with 5.25". > I never had the problem with floppies ten years ago > that I have now with brand new disks. I think that at > some point, the quality of the media just went through > the floor. Arg, don't get me started on how they don't make things like they usta. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:26:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in > BYTE, called Trump > Card. Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember *something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into the later 80's... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:27:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <249616.92651.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Glen Slick wrote: > There were the HP Viper 82300 and Hyper-Viper 82324 > 68K based boards > for running Rocky Mountain BASIC on a PC. > > ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html The early Vectras had cards w/68k's. For instrumental control IIRC. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 14:28:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070906122754.N36602@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, William Donzelli wrote: > Maybe single digit sales for Unisys. > Oh yeah, they still make mainframes... Surely the worldwide market can't be much more than half a dozen :-) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:29:10 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:29:10 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E05506.5020700@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > I am sure you're right. I've read lots about this myself. But from > what I have read, it is not actually selling that many new mainframes. > I've read figures of single-digit sales per year. Much, much more than single-digit sales per year. I can see them being shipped from just down the hall from my office. It's a lot more than single digits per year. > It may be millions of US$ worth of business but it's not many actual > systems. Indeed I think a fair bit of this sort of consolidation is > happening by way of outsourcing to 3rd party datacentres - possibly on > machines still owned by IBM. > > Yes, it's doing well. We are still not talking large volumes, though, > by /any/ measure. Be careful with words like "any". Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:30:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <488639.72912.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Seems to me that there was also a Burroughs > (branded?) machine with a > proporietary (i.e. Burroughs legacy architecture) > board. I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There was a group of 286 (386?) Burroughs machines that were bios-less. Saw 1 on eBay a couple of years back. I should have grabbed them :( Did Burroughs ever build a real IBM compatible? Most know about the '186 based ICON. It almost seems like you're referring to something pcish w/some mini/mainframe card installed. But what do I know... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:31:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:31:16 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E05584.90805@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I am sure you're right. I've read lots about this myself. But from >> what I have read, it is not actually selling that many new mainframes. >> I've read figures of single-digit sales per year. > > Maybe single digit sales for Unisys. Indeed. I would wager IBM ships somewhere in the mid-single digits per *week*. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:32:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:32:13 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061216k2383a944x72d7ee3576a26f9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709061216k2383a944x72d7ee3576a26f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E055BD.2040306@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > But I'd submit that Unix and Windows have come vastly further from > their origins than any mainframe OS. Multiple complete rewrites, > complete changes of look, feel and capabilities, changes of platform, > etc. You need to get yourself an old mainframe and a new one and play with them to see the differences yourself. You'll never take my word for it. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:35:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:35:19 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E05677.3060705@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >> How do you count "number of users" on a payroll system? There's >> probably only a couple of users, but it's the number of people who get >> paid which matters... > > Is it? Even if none of those people access said computer in any way? Yes. Without a doubt. > I don't know any metric, off the top of my head, that attempts to > measure systems' importance. What matters, what sets prices, is users, > number of processors, number of systems, things like that. This is > what determines sales charts and so on. But sales numbers are by no means the only measure of importance. If sales numbers were the only measure, then every mainframe would be replaced by a giant pile of PCs to take advantage of the economies of scale. They tried that and failed miserably. > Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would > still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. > > Take the mainframe away, lots of people would be inconvenienced, yes. > But the same is true of those millions of PCs. More people would be inconvenienced by the loss of, say, 5000 mainframes than by the loss of 5000 PCs. Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:35:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <753686.25648.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- Al Kossow wrote: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 > > > > How to make an unreliable medium even LESS > reliable. Aw Al I used to nibble-notch my Commie 64 disks all the bloomin time LOL. I know, apples and oranges. The disks were double sided in fact, but you had to notch 'em before you flipped them over. > Funny thing was, disks modified in this fashion > never > gave me any problems. I know that the media is > different, and that it should have been unreliable, > but, back then anyway, it worked just fine. I even > remember reading an old disk as recently as last > year, > and it still worked. Many quality branded disks could "double up" on the density. I couldn't believe it when a friend told me that for quads he was using regular DD floppies. Yeah back then floppies were big business I guess, and in order to avoid a bad name, they were over engineered. > I never had the problem with floppies ten years ago > that I have now with brand new disks. I think that > at > some point, the quality of the media just went > through > the floor. It probably has a lot to do w/the media, but I also think the new drives are basically crap also. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 14:44:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:44:59 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org>, <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DFF64B.14573.1FC4E82E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 12:09, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I never had the problem with floppies ten years ago > that I have now with brand new disks. I think that at > some point, the quality of the media just went through > the floor. Indeed, when the price of a box of 1.44 DSHD (Fuji, IIRC) was around $50 and 720K DS2D diskettes were a fraction of that, it paid to punch the holes. I had a hole punch at one time, but then just decided to stack up a pile of them in the drill press and drill the hole out with a brad-point bit. Worked just fine--and I still have some of those "modified" diskettes that are still very readable. Not at all like the "new" DSHD media that I have. You could also do the same trick, albeit with less success to get DSED from DS2D. But then DSED was never that reliable anyway... What surprises me is the occasional 5.25" diskette that shows up for conversion that's written on DSHD media but formatted for 360K 2D. Many still are quite readable after 20 years. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 14:11:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:11:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 5, 7 06:31:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? ... > > > > The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply pins). [...] > I did not realize it was a strange-power-pin part. I would have > figured it out eventually, but it's best to be forwarned. It's even better to have a TTL databook to hand when working on such machines. Then you're not tempted to guess. Actually, that's another advantage of paper databooks. Since the databooks cover many related chips, you're likely to have the data on most of the chips in the machine to hand if you have the databooks on some of them. Whereas if you download infividual datasheets, you'll only have the data on the chips you've downloaded data for. Which means that if you're debugging an old machine and come across some chip you didn't realise was used in said machine, if you have the databook, you probably have the datahsset, and will look it up. If you are relying on the web, you might say 'Oh, I know that one' and not bother to downloasd and print the datasheet. And then spend hours sorting out a problem due to the fact that you didn't really know said chip... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 14:20:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:20:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: <46DF41EC.4080001@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 6, 7 00:55:24 am Message-ID: > I remember NATS at West Drayton in the UK were using Barco displays when I > visited them a couple of years ago. The CRT screens must have been something > like a 28" diagonal and the resolution was very high, several thousand pixels > in each axis. Engineering on them looked to be a very high standard, too. I can't comment on modern Barco stuff, but I have an old Barco TV monitor here (about 27 yeras old). It is quite simply the best engineered monitor it's ever been my pleasure to work on or use. The picture is, of course, second-to-none (given the limitations of a TV-rate signal, OK...). The think is built like a tank, with solid metal chassis work, plug-in cards, labelled testpoints, a drawer that slides out at the fornt containing the converegence PCB and deflection boards (where most of the adjustments are), even an extender board stored inside the unit. The manual contains full schematics, waveform data, parts lists, and so on. Truely an excellent piece of engineering. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 14:23:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:23:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF7949.7090905@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 5, 7 09:51:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? The 7486 is a quad XOR gate, pinout similar to > > the 8400, and with corner supply pins. > I meant 'pinout like the 7400', of course. The 74L86 is aonther one of the 'different pinouts to the plain version'. It has the outputs on the centre pins of each side (corner power), rather like the normal 4000-series CMOS quad gates. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 6 15:15:43 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:15:43 -0500 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E05FEF.4080900@mdrconsult.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 06/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Thursday 06 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: >>> Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up >>> to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is >>> infinitisemal compared to what it once what. >>> > Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would > still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. As it has been since roughly 1975. I'm really confused as to what point you're trying to make. If the point is that Dell sells a metric buttload more PC crap than IBM sells mainframes, I don't believe anyone disagrees. If the point is that zSeries or s/390 systems are obsolete, that point will never hold water. A very good analogy would be a comparison of passenger-car sales to diesel/electric locomotive sales. Trains have been around a hell of a lot longer than passenger cars, and they still do exactly what they've always done. And, for every locomotive engine sold today, there are likely millions of cars sold. Not only does that not prove that trains are obsolete, but the comparison is absolutely meaningless. >>> Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling >>> that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR >>> under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is >>> probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. In fact, the instance of z/OS compared to z/VM is going *up*, not down. Those "marginally interesting" p5 systems are scaling into the low-end LPAR market, while a lot of high-end work, especially in database ops, is scaling into the realm of single-image mainframes. I've been following both branches of this thread (zOS market share, and POWER vs 970FX), and I really have to ask: Do you have any actual experience with, first-hand knowledge of, or formal training in *any* of IBM's non-x86 server platforms? Because everyone who has replied to you, including myself, work with them daily. I'm probably the least knowledgeable, as I have very little experience with the mainframes and none at all with AS/400 or i5. My point is that Pat, Sridhar, William, and even I might know what we're talking about. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 15:23:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:23:56 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <488639.72912.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com>, <488639.72912.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DFFF6C.3615.1FE89366@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 12:30, Chris M wrote: > Did Burroughs ever build a real IBM compatible? Most > know about the '186 based ICON. It almost seems like > you're referring to something pcish w/some > mini/mainframe card installed. But what do I know... Definitely a PC base with some technology installed. It was discussed (last year?) in the archives. I'm thinking about the XE550 (Intel 186+4 Moto 68K) and all of the NGEN IOP modules that could run CTOS. The Intel CPU ran Win NT, IIRC. I'm very fuzzy on it all right now. Cheers, Chuck From wdg3rd at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 15:26:07 2007 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:26:07 +0000 Subject: Second processor cards Message-ID: <090620072026.21065.46E0625F000B68BF0000524922135753330B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> > Message: 24 > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:24:55 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > Subject: Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? > What was the purpose of offloading in this context? > Simply acceleration? No, I can't think of any "whole > puters" that could get plugged into a pc or at either, > just thought I'd ask. But keep in mind you don't > really need a distinct k/b and screen to do that. > Years later they were quite common. I think it was > Orange Micro or AST that came out w/286 Nubus cards > for the early Nubus equipped Macs. I never bothered to > get mine working, but I'm guessing the environment ran > in a window on the Mac desktop. > Nevertheless I think it would be very kewell to plug > a whole 'nother puter into something vintij. Very kewell. This was discussed in another thread a little while ago. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1997-November/092425.html -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net Well, if you're gonna buy a ticket on the Titanic, you might as well go First Class. Captain Audie Murphy, Texas Ranger, in _Roswell, Texas_ by L. Neil Smith, Rex May and Scott Bieser. http://www.bigheadpress.com/roswell/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 15:30:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:30:29 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <753686.25648.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <753686.25648.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E000F5.6024.1FEE9275@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 12:35, Chris M wrote: > Many quality branded disks could "double up" on the > density. I couldn't believe it when a friend told me > that for quads he was using regular DD floppies. Yeah > back then floppies were big business I guess, and in > order to avoid a bad name, they were over engineered. Let's be clear here--I interpret 5.25 DD to be 360K (250K data rate at 300 RPM) at 48 tpi. And "quad" to me is the same data rate but narrower tracks for 96 tpi and 720K. AFAIK, the only difference between DSDD and DSQD was the supposed certification provided by the mnaufacturer. I never found any difference at all. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 6 15:31:46 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <249616.92651.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <249616.92651.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > --- Glen Slick wrote: > > > There were the HP Viper 82300 and Hyper-Viper 82324 > > 68K based boards > > for running Rocky Mountain BASIC on a PC. > > > > ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html > > The early Vectras had cards w/68k's. For instrumental > control IIRC. Does anyone here remember or have a Sparcplug? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:33:38 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:33:38 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <20070906122754.N36602@shell.lmi.net> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> <20070906122754.N36602@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Surely the worldwide market can't be much more than half a dozen :-) I bet less than 50, seriously. I would actually like to get my hands on a Unisys - actually, both flavors - just to see what they are all about. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 15:34:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <46E000F5.6024.1FEE9275@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <956510.23785.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Let's be clear here--I interpret 5.25 DD to be 360K > (250K data rate > at 300 RPM) at 48 tpi. And "quad" to me is the same > data rate but > narrower tracks for 96 tpi and 720K. AFAIK, the > only difference > between DSDD and DSQD was the supposed certification > provided by the > mnaufacturer. I never found any difference at all. Well I wish you could have been clear about this ~20 years back. I thus wouldn't have blown all those extra cordobas on senseless certification! Sheesh! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 15:36:12 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <194882.16120.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > > > --- Glen Slick wrote: > > > > > There were the HP Viper 82300 and Hyper-Viper > 82324 > > > 68K based boards > > > for running Rocky Mountain BASIC on a PC. > > > > > > > ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html > > > > The early Vectras had cards w/68k's. For > instrumental > > control IIRC. > > Does anyone here remember or have a Sparcplug? O sure. I got 6. Can't spare a one though. I hate rattling down the road on less then all-cylinders LOL LOL LOL LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:41:47 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:41:47 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> <20070906122754.N36602@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46E0660B.4050509@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Surely the worldwide market can't be much more than half a dozen :-) > > I bet less than 50, seriously. > > I would actually like to get my hands on a Unisys - actually, both > flavors - just to see what they are all about. One of the things I have in my pile is a Honeywell/Bull DPS9000. How many of those do you think are left? And yes, GCOS 8 machines are still being made too. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 16:02:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:02:58 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > --- Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in >> BYTE, called Trump >> Card. > > Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my > previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember > *something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into > the later 80's... > I kind of dumped Steve after he did his PC clone. :( Too bad 68000's and 8088's are the only cpu's that hit the home market. Now I find out about the better chips. Ben alias Woodelf. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Sep 6 16:04:04 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 22:04:04 +0100 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?) -25connector] References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> <46DF3857.12798.1CDEE823@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <015a01c7f0c9$768ad050$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Anyone have one of the "gutless" Atari laser printers? Did >it connect to the ACSI port or to the printer port--or somewhere >else? I never had one back in the day, but my understanding was that it connected to the ACSI port. TTFN - Pete. From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Sep 6 16:09:41 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF X - November 3-4 Message-ID: Hey All! Just a quick heads-up that things are starting to roll for the tenth anniversary VCF event this November 3-4. I'm working on some pretty incredible stuff behind the scenes that will be announced in the next couple of weeks. As of now we have about 5 registered exhibits. I'll be posting more speakers to the roster in the next couple days and have several more to confirm that will go up in the next several weeks. If anyone has an idea for a talk or workshop they'd like to give I'd love to hear it, so e-mail me off-list if you'd like to participate. With two months to go things are going to start to move fast, so anyone planning to exhibit at the VCF this year is encouraged to register ASAP. http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Sep 6 14:46:51 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:46:51 +0100 Subject: MAC emulation? In-Reply-To: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> References: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <1189108011.8667.2.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:33 -0500, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for > one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. > My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC > which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these > applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and > a MIDI interface? I've got a couple of powerbooks of similar era that I'd like to get some sort of sequencer for. Maybe an early version of Cubase, like I used to use on the ST. Gordon From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Thu Sep 6 16:48:56 2007 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:48:56 -0400 Subject: MAC emulation? In-Reply-To: <1189108011.8667.2.camel@elric> Message-ID: <00f001c7f0cf$b9cee8f0$0c3ca8c0@ctrenaissance.net> There's BasiliskII... Not sure if it will meet your requirements. http://basilisk.cebix.net/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: MAC emulation? On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:33 -0500, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for > one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. > My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC > which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these > applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and > a MIDI interface? I've got a couple of powerbooks of similar era that I'd like to get some sort of sequencer for. Maybe an early version of Cubase, like I used to use on the ST. Gordon From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 6 16:56:49 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MAC emulation? In-Reply-To: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> References: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for > one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. > My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC > which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these > applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and > a MIDI interface? I don't know about MIDI with Mac emulators, but at least two Atari ST emulators (STEEM and Hatari) will talk to midi ports. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 16:57:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <69835.40776.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > I kind of dumped Steve after he did his PC clone. :( > Too bad 68000's and 8088's are the only cpu's that > hit the home market. Now I find out about the better > chips. Um, wasn't that like 1982? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 17:15:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:15:24 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org> References: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46E0198C.30413.204EA012@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 11:44, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 > > How to make an unreliable medium even LESS reliable. Well, I don't know. In the universe of "read-and-write unreliable media", floppies rate as pretty darned reliable from the standpoint of "How many years can elapse between writing and reading before the medium becomes unreadable?" Hard disks seem to develop problems regularly (bumpers turning to goo etc., not being able to locate the correct controller to read the old stuff), tapes seem to have all sorts of problems from QIC cartridges shedding to the wonderful experience of oxide sticking to the next layer on 1/2" 9-track tape (it really makes a mess on a 200 ips streamer). MO carts that fail mysteriously or problems locating the appropriate drive. I don't know how USB flash will fare in 30 years. Punched cards are still pretty good. I can still read the first floppies I wrote over 30 years ago just fine--and have 3.5" diskettes more than 20 years old that read just fine. Basalt tablets--now there's a reliable medium. Cheers, Chuck From James at jdfogg.com Thu Sep 6 17:32:26 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:32:26 -0400 Subject: Once upon a time Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256FDE@sbs.jdfogg.com> When one spoke of computer research and manufacture, you were speaking of Massachusetts. And it was all clustered along Rt. 128 (except DEC). Someone made a poster of it. http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/for/415042460.html Link probably has a limited life expectancy. James - "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle" From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 18:04:06 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:04:06 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709061904.06605.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 06 September 2007 10:22, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 6, 2007, at 1:31 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor > >> boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that > >> way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on > >> the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary > >> processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you > >> plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, > >> and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm > > > > I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading > > sometime in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of > > that family straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's > > all very fuzzy... > > Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump > Card. That's probably the one I'm remembering, then. That was a better magazine before he left... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 18:06:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:06:30 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8C74A25E-2F95-4A25-AF64-2BEB963BFF9E@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Chris M wrote: >> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in >> BYTE, called Trump >> Card. > > Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my > previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember > *something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into > the later 80's... I have (I think) everything Ciarcia has ever written...I don't think he ever did anything with the 68020. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 6 18:09:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:09:50 -0600 Subject: power brownout logger? Message-ID: Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking for. OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly sucks. Any suggestions? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 18:10:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <8C74A25E-2F95-4A25-AF64-2BEB963BFF9E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <209208.65248.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > I have (I think) everything Ciarcia has ever > written...I don't > think he ever did anything with the 68020. Hmm. I would think it had to be him. I hope I wasn't just reading a product review. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 18:10:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:10:01 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <305BBFC6-261C-465A-8BCF-F89C0593D773@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 2:29 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider > the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer > models instead. Well...the IT management press has never really had much of a clue of how things are done in the real data processing world, so this is not entirely surprising. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 18:13:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <8C74A25E-2F95-4A25-AF64-2BEB963BFF9E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <967887.97474.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > I have (I think) everything Ciarcia has ever > written...I don't > think he ever did anything with the 68020. this is probably it: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=19038. 19042&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=28963802&CFTOKEN=27219755 I guess it was SC after all... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 18:14:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:14:19 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <489223CD-22DC-482E-9F10-5F53F547E7A7@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 5:02 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my >> previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember >> *something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into >> the later 80's... > > I kind of dumped Steve after he did his PC clone. :( Well his column in BYTE didn't last a whole lot longer than that. His magazine, however, is something that I'd skip meals in order to keep receiving. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 18:22:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:22:32 -0600 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E08BB8.1060408@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the > net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking > for. > > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. > > Any suggestions? check here. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ From steve at radiorobots.com Thu Sep 6 18:23:13 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:23:13 -0400 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E08BE1.4040506@radiorobots.com> Richard wrote: >Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the >net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking >for. > >OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all >too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the >public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't >showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > >So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >sucks. > >Any suggestions? > > Have heard of, but not used: http://www.duncaninstr.com/pqr2020.htm From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 18:28:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:28:04 -0700 Subject: Dranetz (was power brownout logger?) Message-ID: <46E08D04.401@bitsavers.org> The industry-standard device is made by Dranetz and has been around in various forms for decades. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 18:29:38 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:29:38 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <489223CD-22DC-482E-9F10-5F53F547E7A7@neurotica.com> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> <489223CD-22DC-482E-9F10-5F53F547E7A7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46E08D62.60908@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Well his column in BYTE didn't last a whole lot longer than that. His > magazine, however, is something that I'd skip meals in order to keep > receiving. GRAND-MA ... Eat Grandson, Eat you are getting thin, Eat. > -Dave Well BYTE may have lasted longer, but then it was not SMALL SYSTEMS ... but Me the PeeCee. Ben alias Grandma PS. Grandma's favorite nine letter word: Eat-Eat-Eat ('~) From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Sep 6 18:27:13 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:27:13 -0700 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E08CD1.6010606@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the >net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking >for. > >OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all >too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the >public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't >showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > >So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >sucks. > >Any suggestions? > > Dranetz one we used at Microdata for problem analysis is on ebay right now Dranetz Disturbance Analyzer Model 606-3 280149645284 look for Dranetz anyway and they seem to come up farily often. Jim From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 6 18:30:03 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:30:03 -0400 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200709062330.l86NU5g9043310@billy.ezwind.net> I built one years ago using a Rustrak Recorder and a simple resistor bridge. http://tinyurl.com/yv24cs will give you a selection to choose from. When I had a showdown with the power company, their response was... if I cared that much about power I should have a USP and I might want to think about a backup genertaor. I ended up with both :) till later... The other Bob On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:09:50 -0600, Richard wrote: >Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the >net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking >for. >OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all >too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the >public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't >showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. >So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >sucks. >Any suggestions? >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 18:36:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070906163308.P49526@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Richard wrote: > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. Vertex (who were for a brief time authorized to distribute my XenoCopy) had such a device. It had a walwart and connected to a PC. Unfortunately, whenever there were power problems, it would crash and lose all the data. Therefore, it should only be used on systems with no power problems. Hmmm. wonder why it never caught on From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 18:36:41 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E08D62.60908@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> <489223CD-22DC-482E-9F10-5F53F547E7A7@neurotica.com> <46E08D62.60908@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 6, 2007, at 7:29 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Well his column in BYTE didn't last a whole lot longer than >> that. His magazine, however, is something that I'd skip meals in >> order to keep receiving. > > GRAND-MA ... Eat Grandson, Eat you are getting thin, Eat. Oh, I am NOT getting thin. ;) > Well BYTE may have lasted longer, but then it was not SMALL > SYSTEMS ... but Me the PeeCee. > Ben alias Grandma > PS. Grandma's favorite nine letter word: Eat-Eat-Eat ('~) Yep. BYTE changed from a respectable technical magazine to a PC sales rag. Very sad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 19:01:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:01:02 -0700 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E0324E.3989.20AF529D@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 17:09, Richard wrote: > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. And then what? You don't expect them to do anything about it, do you? It's funny--20 years ago, I could call the telco and have them adjust the EQ on the line gratis. Now their standard is "hear and be heard" and "can we sell you wireless service or Dish TV?". Of course, 20 years ago, the installation tech would come back a few days after hookup and ask how things were operating. It took almost 6 months before my power company would come out and adjust the taps on the distribution transformer. Mains voltage was about 135/270 volts most of the time. Incandescent bulbs didn't last long. Now it measures (let's see here) about 123/246. Close enough. Get a UPS if outages are a problem (generator if they last more than an hour or so) or a line conditioner if it's just sags and brownouts. I've got all three and they get used at least once per year. Complaining (unless you're a commercial customer with big bills) will generally only get you a bad case of hypertension. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 19:21:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <46E0324E.3989.20AF529D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46E0324E.3989.20AF529D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070906171923.G49526@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It took almost 6 months before my power company would come out and > adjust the taps on the distribution transformer. Mains voltage was > about 135/270 volts most of the time. Incandescent bulbs didn't last > long. Now it measures (let's see here) about 123/246. Close enough. PG&E (1986): "Oh, well voltages like that wouldn't hurt computers, only things like electric typewriters." But, they did install a recording monitor, and a few weeks later adjusted the voltage. > > Get a UPS if outages are a problem (generator if they last more than > an hour or so) or a line conditioner if it's just sags and brownouts. > I've got all three and they get used at least once per year. > > Complaining (unless you're a commercial customer with big bills) will > generally only get you a bad case of hypertension. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 19:22:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:22:01 -0500 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/6/07, Richard wrote: > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. Unsurprising. > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. > > Any suggestions? I've used this one... http://www.tequipment.net/FlukePowerQualityVOLT.html You'll need a Windows PC to run their EventView app. I'd always intended to stick a serial analyzer between the PC and the VR101S, but I didn't happen to have an HP 4951 on hand, and I never got around to building a 2-serial-port box with some serial tracing app. I _suspect_ it wouldn't be difficult to write a simple C app to dump the VR101S to a comma-separated-value file (as EventView will do upon request), but I didn't happen to take those thought to conclusion. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 19:54:21 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 01:54:21 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E055BD.2040306@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709061216k2383a944x72d7ee3576a26f9e@mail.gmail.com> <46E055BD.2040306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061754k4e9d76eag2892ac1cbce09988@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > But I'd submit that Unix and Windows have come vastly further from > > their origins than any mainframe OS. Multiple complete rewrites, > > complete changes of look, feel and capabilities, changes of platform, > > etc. > > You need to get yourself an old mainframe and a new one and play with > them to see the differences yourself. You'll never take my word for it. :?) I have a bit of a shortage of space, 3-phase power, cooling systems and so on. But if I could have afforded the freight, I'd have had that baby/36 thing that came up recently... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:02:27 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:02:27 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E05677.3060705@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> <46E05677.3060705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061802r2ea9135bg49a1383b7b2b8c71@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >> How do you count "number of users" on a payroll system? There's > >> probably only a couple of users, but it's the number of people who get > >> paid which matters... > > > > Is it? Even if none of those people access said computer in any way? > > Yes. Without a doubt. I think if we're trying to compare sales volumes, market shares or anything like that, how many people per dollar spent are affected or something might count. That would disproportionately favour big iron, I'm sure. > > I don't know any metric, off the top of my head, that attempts to > > measure systems' importance. What matters, what sets prices, is users, > > number of processors, number of systems, things like that. This is > > what determines sales charts and so on. > > But sales numbers are by no means the only measure of importance. If > sales numbers were the only measure, then every mainframe would be > replaced by a giant pile of PCs to take advantage of the economies of > scale. They tried that and failed miserably. Absolutely - and I'm delighted to see the big systems making something of a comeback. I mean, hey, if I wasn't interested in and keen on such things, I wouldn't have been looking for a VAX or indeed a job in OpenVMS support! :?) I'm delighted to learn that OpenVMS is still widely used and new systems are being put in, and that what I'd thought was an obsolete skill on my CV is attracting attention. But we do need some metric, some base of comparison, to talk about them meaningfully and be able to compare their relative success... no? > > Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would > > still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. > > > > Take the mainframe away, lots of people would be inconvenienced, yes. > > But the same is true of those millions of PCs. > > More people would be inconvenienced by the loss of, say, 5000 mainframes > than by the loss of 5000 PCs. That's very true, certainly. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:03:32 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:03:32 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <305BBFC6-261C-465A-8BCF-F89C0593D773@neurotica.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <305BBFC6-261C-465A-8BCF-F89C0593D773@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061803q5c58db86g232683e1481ffac5@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 6, 2007, at 2:29 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider > > the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer > > models instead. > > Well...the IT management press has never really had much of a clue > of how things are done in the real data processing world, so this is > not entirely surprising. Good point, well made. (An IT journalist writes. One of the worst freelance commissions I ever had was a piece on "knowledge management". It's such an empty phrase...) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:13:32 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:13:32 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E05FEF.4080900@mdrconsult.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> <46E05FEF.4080900@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061813yd238128l1b3d6f9996fe106c@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 06/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> On Thursday 06 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up > >>> to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > >>> infinitisemal compared to what it once what. > >>> > > Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would > > still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. > > As it has been since roughly 1975. I'm really confused as to what > point you're trying to make. If the point is that Dell sells a metric > buttload more PC crap than IBM sells mainframes, I don't believe anyone > disagrees. If the point is that zSeries or s/390 systems are obsolete, > that point will never hold water. I never said they were obsolete, nor anything like it. I described them as "legacy systems" (or words to that effect) and said that they had little direct relevance to me personally or to me professionally, inasmuch as they're not relevant to any of my clients. And I stand by that. > A very good analogy would be a comparison of passenger-car sales to > diesel/electric locomotive sales. Trains have been around a hell of a > lot longer than passenger cars, and they still do exactly what they've > always done. And, for every locomotive engine sold today, there are > likely millions of cars sold. Not only does that not prove that trains > are obsolete, but the comparison is absolutely meaningless. Train sales versus car sales? Meaningless. Number of people travelling by train versus number travelling by car? Highly meaningful and relevant, especially vis-a-vis Greenhouse Effect/Global Warming discussions. > >>> Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling > >>> that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR > >>> under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is > >>> probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. > > In fact, the instance of z/OS compared to z/VM is going *up*, not > down. Those "marginally interesting" p5 systems are scaling into the > low-end LPAR market, while a lot of high-end work, especially in > database ops, is scaling into the realm of single-image mainframes. I lose track of IBM's regular renaming of its enterprise lines. I thought the pSeries was basically RS/6000, versus zSeries being S/390 and iSeries = AS/400? (You might think "i" = "Intel" or "i" = "i386", but noooooo...) I think eSeries was the x86 stuff, wasn't it? But anyway, AIUI, pSeries - which is what I'm guessing you mean by p5 - was AIX boxes maybe running Linux maybe in a VM, whereas zSeries was S/390s, VM boxes running Linux maybe in an LPAR? > I've been following both branches of this thread (zOS market share, > and POWER vs 970FX), and I really have to ask: > > Do you have any actual experience with, first-hand knowledge of, or > formal training in *any* of IBM's non-x86 server platforms? I have worked on and supported early RT/PC systems (6150, 6151) under AIX, System/36 and several AS/400s - some in the last 5y. I've also worked on PDP/11, more VAXen than I can remember, Alphas, SunOS & Solaris on SPARC and other things. So, not all x86, but most of the non-x86 stuff has been Unix. So, yes, I have some experience beyond x86, where I've covered everything from Xenix to Netware to Concurrent CP/M and Concurrent DOS, outside of the vanilla world of Micros~1 operating systems. But, really, very little mainframe experience & not much with minis. I am a desktop and PC server type, really. I am still trying to broaden my experience. > Because everyone who has replied to you, including myself, work with > them daily. I'm probably the least knowledgeable, as I have very little > experience with the mainframes and none at all with AS/400 or i5. My > point is that Pat, Sridhar, William, and even I might know what we're > talking about. I don't doubt it; I did, when replying to Pat, but I had misunderstood him and I didn't have my own facts straight either. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:25:18 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:25:18 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DFE04B.8010103@yahoo.co.uk> <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061825m313b7099jcc8e140c6493b0ba@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: > > > I'm jumping in here mid-thread though so have lost > > some of the context - I > > can't think of a scenario where you plugged an > > entire machine (implying things > > like keyboard and video interfaces too) into an AT, > > but there were certainly > > all sorts of cards of the "CPU/memory/ROM/ISA > > interface" around onto which > > code could be offloaded. > > What was the purpose of offloading in this context? > Simply acceleration? No, I can't think of any "whole > puters" that could get plugged into a pc or at either, > just thought I'd ask. But keep in mind you don't > really need a distinct k/b and screen to do that. > Years later they were quite common. I think it was > Orange Micro or AST that came out w/286 Nubus cards > for the early Nubus equipped Macs. I never bothered to > get mine working, but I'm guessing the environment ran > in a window on the Mac desktop. I've seen and played with such things, and yes, it did. VirtualPC, done in hardware. Not very good graphics compatibility, generally - CGA was typical, and often it was just BIOS-compatible, not hardware or register level. > Nevertheless I think it would be very kewell to plug > a whole 'nother puter into something vintij. Very kewell. There was also the Golden Gate 386, a PC on a card for an Amiga: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=348 There was the Amiga Sidecar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Sidecar And the Siamese system, which linked a real Amiga to a PC via an ISA card to turn a PC into an Amiga-compatible: http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~pnolan/siamese.html There was the QXL and QXL2, Sinclair QL-compatibles on an ISA card, using the PC as a host and for I/O: http://sinclairql.emuunlim.com/hardware.html ISTR an Amiga version of something like this but I can't recall any details, alas. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:30:55 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:30:55 +0100 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Message-ID: <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a > Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a > development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm > flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so > I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the > development itself on a IIfx. > > In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of > sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying around > (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one > digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk network to > keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be > a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some > otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various elderly Macs... http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 21:30:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:30:50 -0700 Subject: Dali Clock Message-ID: <46E0B7DA.3090605@bitsavers.org> > I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the > story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and from the URL: > The original (Steve Capps) version of Dali Clock Which is REALLY a port of the graphics from the XEROX ALTO Dali Clock. From scrappylaptop at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 21:33:21 2007 From: scrappylaptop at yahoo.com (Scrappy Laptop) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061217j4bcd824al2b324458896c41d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <692872.98494.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Liam Proven wrote: On 06/09/07, Richard wrote: > I also have some VLB cards that are free for cost of shipping. I'm in > 84106. The starting price on my card is UK$0.01, which is as near as damnit free. If anyone actually wants it and it doesn't fetch at least a penny, they can have it for free too. :?) -- Yes, but will you throw in item 270163174907, the Cute furry snail cuddly toy? --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 21:36:40 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:36:40 -0700 Subject: A few cromemco floppy images Message-ID: <46E0B938.7030201@bitsavers.org> I bought several eBay lots of floppies, one of which purported to be cromix discs. It appears only one was a cromix disc, the rest appear to be cdos. I haven't looked at them in detail. About half of them have been read and are up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Cromemco/floppy There are also what appear to be UCSD Pascal I.5 discs for CP/M up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/UCSD_Pascal/cpm From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu Sep 6 21:42:21 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:42:21 -0500 Subject: Strange ADVENT error messages (OS/8) In-Reply-To: <200709062154.l86Lsu5f051839@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709062154.l86Lsu5f051839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Today I set out to debug my other (previously donated/defective) 16K core board in order to have a full 32K in my 8/A. The board was completely dead (0000 at all locations). A quick test program to read all locations in field 4-7 and a little scope work (it's handy to have a current probe) showed that one of the two paralleled X Read/Write drive transistors was defective and so that stack current pulse was only half amplitude. After replacing the transistor, powering back up and booting OS/8 from my RL02, a MEM command now showed "32K MEMORY!" :) Everything pretty much seems to be working just like before (such as LUNAR in PFOCAL, and various BASIC programs). But when I attempt to run ADVENT I get the following bizarre error messages: DIVIDE BY 0 ID("IL 0000 DIVIDE BY 0 ID("IL 0000 DIVIDE BY 0 ID:SIL 0357 DIVIDE BY 0 IE\/IM 0000 BAD ARG IE\/IM 0000 ID:SIL 0357 IANBII 0000 IEG8IM 0000 IEH?IM 0000 IE BIM 7240 IAVBII 0000 and then it either returns to the dot prompt or crashes. This disk image works perfectly (including ADVENT) on my laptop running SIMH. This looks to me like part of a file is corrupted (the presumed garbles are repeatable), but I don't know which one... any thoughts? I haven't run a test pattern on the "new" core board and wonder if it could be the source of this error. Rick M. are you out there? ;) thanks for any help. -Charles From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 22:56:35 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 04:56:35 +0100 Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? In-Reply-To: <692872.98494.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0709061217j4bcd824al2b324458896c41d@mail.gmail.com> <692872.98494.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709062056r87103c8hfc4e821994f7782d@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Scrappy Laptop wrote: > > > Liam Proven wrote: On 06/09/07, Richard wrote: > > I also have some VLB cards that are free for cost of shipping. I'm in > > 84106. > > The starting price on my card is UK$0.01, which is as near as damnit > free. If anyone actually wants it and it doesn't fetch at least a > penny, they can have it for free too. :?) > > -- > > Yes, but will you throw in item 270163174907, the > Cute furry snail cuddly toy? Hey, if you're paying! ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 22:57:51 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 04:57:51 +0100 Subject: Dali Clock In-Reply-To: <46E0B7DA.3090605@bitsavers.org> References: <46E0B7DA.3090605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709062057x523e331v92dc13756d9da8bd@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the > > story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock > > and from the URL: > > > The original (Steve Capps) version of Dali Clock > > Which is REALLY a port of the graphics from the XEROX ALTO Dali Clock. To be fair, he does mention that... http://www.jwz.org/xdaliclock/ "This is a very old program! The original version was written some time in the early 1980s by Steve Capps for the Xerox Alto workstation. In 1984, he ported it to the original Macintosh 128K." -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Sep 6 23:49:16 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 05:49:16 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <46DFE04B.8010103@yahoo.co.uk><976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709061825m313b7099jcc8e140c6493b0ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01c7f10a$724cef00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > There was the QXL and QXL2, Sinclair QL-compatibles on >an ISA card, using the PC as a host and for I/O.... > ISTR an Amiga version of something like this but I can't >recall any details, alas. I know that there exists an Atari ST on a PCI (or ISA?) card....don't know any more than that really (other that it's possibly from a German company) since I got out of the ST "scene" *many* moons ago. TTFN - Pete. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 7 00:58:21 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:58:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Genuine DEC H8571-J MMJ adapters available Message-ID: I managed a buyout of genuine DEC H8571-J MMJ adapters awhile back and just got them in. They are brand new and are in factory sealed DEC packaging. I'm planning to list some on eBay and VCM, but I thought I'd post an offer to the list first. They are $25.00 each + postage and I can ship internationally. I also have about a dozen of the H8571-J work-alike adapter+cable kits that I've been building for $20.00 each, but I'll probably make some more once those are gone since they have been extremely popular. -Toth From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Sep 7 01:20:11 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 23:20:11 -0700 Subject: power brownout logger? References: <46E08BB8.1060408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000f01c7f117$2852b800$0201a8c0@hal9000> > Richard wrote: > > Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the > > net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking > > for. > > > > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > > > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > > sucks. > > > > Any suggestions? > check here. > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ > > Even though that is a lovely device and I am certainly a fan of SpareTimeGizmos - that particular unit only monitors the frequency of the AC line and not any voltage monitoring. Best regards, Steven C. From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Sep 7 01:25:52 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 07:25:52 +0100 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70709062325q246d6949hebaea1d6b9534686@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Richard wrote: > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. > We used to have a device at a place I worked at about 18 years ago; size of a briefcase, with built in printer that output line conditions. Sorry no idea on make now.. What I have *here* though that would do the job is an old (APC) Smart UPS - it's got a not-quite-RS232 port on the back, and there's monitoring software I could run (on the protected PC!) that will show what's been going on. If anybody local (Manchester, UK) wants one, incidentally, I've got spares that just need new batteries, but there's no way you want to be paying for shipping one! From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Sep 6 16:56:57 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:56:57 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Message-ID: <46E077A9.3070606@msu.edu> Thanks to all for the great suggestions -- I'll (hopefully) have some time this weekend to track down a few of the suggested packages and give them a shot. And I'll let you know when (if) I ever finish my little project :). Thanks again! - Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac > (or two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any > programming on a Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any > recommendations for a development environment to use or to avoid. I'd > prefer C/C++, but I'm flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code > on a Mac Classic/SE (so I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) > but I'll be doing the development itself on a IIfx. > > In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock > of sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying > around (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will > display one digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an > Appletalk network to keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the > theory. Figure it'll be a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat > interesting use for some otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). > > Thanks for any suggestions... > - Josh > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 6 18:43:05 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:43:05 -0400 Subject: power brownout logger? Message-ID: <0JNZ008WN0IA11I7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: power brownout logger? > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:36:29 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Richard wrote: >> So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >> before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >> sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >> reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >> their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >> sucks. > >Vertex (who were for a brief time authorized to distribute my XenoCopy) >had such a device. It had a walwart and connected to a PC. >Unfortunately, whenever there were power problems, it would crash and lose >all the data. Therefore, it should only be used on systems with no power >problems. Hmmm. wonder why it never caught on Company the name I remember is DRANITZ made a power logger that could report things liek brown or drop outs, length of disturbance and even things like common mode or neutral to protective ground currents. Handy device and like can be found at surplus equipment shops. Allison From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Sep 7 00:46:13 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:46:13 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> Liam Proven wrote: > On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or >> two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a >> Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a >> development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm >> flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so >> I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the >> development itself on a IIfx. >> >> In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of >> sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying around >> (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one >> digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk network to >> keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be >> a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some >> otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). >> > > That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. > > I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the > story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various > elderly Macs... > > http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html > > Thanks for the vote of support :). I think most of the code should be dead simple but I'm not sure how the time-sync networking portion's going to go. I also need to pick up some serial Appletalk cabling; the SEs and the SE/30s have ethernet cards, but the Classics are unexpandable and thus do not. Maybe I can just find some more SEs to use :). I hope to get most of the work done this weekend, assuming nothing interrupts me... ha ha ha. And I have a copy of the original Mac Dali clock on one of my macs... somewhere :). - Josh From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 7 01:46:56 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 01:46:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709062325q246d6949hebaea1d6b9534686@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70709062325q246d6949hebaea1d6b9534686@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, Rob wrote: > On 07/09/07, Richard wrote: > >> So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >> before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >> sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >> reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >> their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >> sucks. > > We used to have a device at a place I worked at about 18 years ago; size > of a briefcase, with built in printer that output line conditions. > Sorry no idea on make now.. > > What I have *here* though that would do the job is an old (APC) Smart > UPS - it's got a not-quite-RS232 port on the back, and there's > monitoring software I could run (on the protected PC!) that will show > what's been going on. Be aware that the original SmartUPS series don't have full line monitoring even though they are in the "smartups" category. Their functions are somewhat more limited compared to the later SmartUPS series. The original SmartUPS 600 is a good example of these. It has a metal case (with a plastic front bezel over the metal), uses 2x 12V 7Ah batteries and has no battery service door/compartment. These are the type you have to disassemble and service very carefully due to the metal bracket that holds the batteries being right next to the live heatsinks (even when disconnected from mains). I had a little plastic tool that I made to disconnect the battery lead before removing the bracket. A plastic spudger tool would do the trick too. -Toth From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 7 02:23:29 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:23:29 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> Paul Heller wrote: > > On Sep 5, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > I received two orphan 320K keyboard/display units a few years ago > > (no logic unit). > > ... > Cool idea. Did you find the hardware interface documented somewhere, > or did you reverse engineer it somehow? Was it something standard > like RS-232? Rick Bensene wrote: > >The keyboard/display units were simple -- WAY more simple than serial >RS-232. Logic levels were not TTL (remember, these machines were made >with all-transistor...no IC's anywhere either the keyboard/display >units, nor the electronics package). ... ... everything Rick said. (Yes, it was RE'd.) The level shifters just needed a few transistors and resistors - logic levels in the Wang are 0V and ?10V. Another nice thing about the Wang KDUs for this purpose is the key-caps are composed of snap-on clear plastic tops with a paper label underneath, so it's easy to print/relabel the entire keyboard to whatever calculator layout you like, rather than being stuck with either the Wang functions/semantics (which are a little unusual) or obtuse labels. For my desires, the target user interface was straightforward RPN style, essentially modeled on my little old HP-21. (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, anything more than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, and it's straight to the spreadsheet app kept idling in the background.) From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 02:58:51 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:58:51 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> Hi, i've collected some of those processor boards (all of them are ISA cards), among them - 2 different Opus SparcCards - Opus 32332 - Definicon DSI-32 (32032), DSI-780 (68020) - 2 different Microway NumberSmasher (Intel i860, one EISA) - Yarc ProTran (Transputer) - Zaiaz 933 (Clipper) : unfortunately no docs/software :( - QXL (68040) - Janus (68000, Atari) - various Z-80 boards Some of them include a complete Operating System (mostly UNIX), others have only some basic runtime environment, so you're mostly on your own (which makes more fun :)) There are at least two cards, that i really want to add to this collection : Steve Ciarcia's Trump Card (Z-8001) Siamese 68040 (Mac on a PCI card), developed by a UK company but i'm constantly looking for other cards as well Ciao Bernd On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:31:10 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:10, Chris M wrote: >> Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor >> boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that >> way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on >> the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary >> processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you >> plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, >> and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm >I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading sometime >in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of that family >straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's all very >fuzzy... >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 03:00:11 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:00:11 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070907074641.B667AFB77A@mac-mini.local> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:26:24 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: >--- Dave McGuire wrote: >> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in >> BYTE, called Trump >> Card. > Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my >previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember >*something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into >the later 80's... I think, those were the Definicon DSI cards ... Ciao Bernd From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 03:02:00 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:02:00 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:22:22 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump >Card. Ahhh, i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( Ciao Bernd From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 03:08:52 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:08:52 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <001c01c7f10a$724cef00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070907075522.4D93BFB785@mac-mini.local> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 05:49:16 +0100, Ensor wrote: >Hi, > > There was the QXL and QXL2, Sinclair QL-compatibles on > >an ISA card, using the PC as a host and for I/O.... > > ISTR an Amiga version of something like this but I can't > >recall any details, alas. >I know that there exists an Atari ST on a PCI (or ISA?) card....don't know >any more than that really (other that it's possibly from a German company) >since I got out of the ST "scene" *many* moons ago. There's at least the Janus card, which implements a basic Atari ST on an ISA board ... ... i own the 68000 version, but it seems, there was an 68020 version available too. A DOS based driver is available, that handles all the I/O handling via the PC. I always wanted to get that driver ported to OS/2 (running Atari SW in a OS/2 PM-Window is definitely amazing :)), but never got any technical information ... Ciao Bernd From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 7 04:53:38 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Nova 4 needs a new home Message-ID: I am helping to liquidate a collection of stuff belonging to a guy near Pasadena California. Among the items is a Data General Nova 4 and related peripherals. It includes the Nova 4 itself, a 25 megabyte hard drive, magtape drive, paper tape (I think), and assorted other fiddly bits. The whole thing is in a 6-foot-tall rack, so you'll need to pick it up yourself and get a couple friends to help. It also includes a decent amount of documentation and paper-tape software. This fellow got caught in the recent storm of mortgage forclosures and needs to clean out all the stuff he's not keeping (which is most of it) by the end of September: this month. So, this thing needs to go NOW. No reasonable offer refused. If you're interested, please email me at the below address or my yahoo address (cupricus) if that doesn't work for you. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 7 05:19:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:19:28 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E125B0.9070504@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > Nevertheless I think it would be very kewell to plug > a whole 'nother puter into something vintij. Very kewell. That's what RS-232 ports are for ;) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 7 05:23:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:23:57 +0100 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?) -25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DF3857.12798.1CDEE823@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> <46DF3857.12798.1CDEE823@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E126BD.9000205@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anyone have one of the "gutless" Atari laser printers? Did it > connect to the ACSI port or to the printer port--or somewhere else? Hmm, Witchy has one, but I don't think he's currently subscribed after the list software got upset with him following an ISP change :-) Far as I know his re-subscription request is still pending (it's been that way for a couple of weeks - but then we know Jay's busy!) Hopefully he'll be back soon, although in the meantime you could always prod him via binarydinosaurs. From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Fri Sep 7 06:28:54 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:28:54 +0100 Subject: Next Question, re: "you can always rebuild the HD" In-Reply-To: References: <200709061414.l86EEnBR040396@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <77C75094-74DF-4CA1-95B1-45B1EE566922@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 6 Sep 2007, at 16:22, Mark Tapley wrote: > ... > As others have said, if a "me" password is set, you get the login > screen. If not, it logs you straight in as "me", which is not a > recommended way to run the machine (but if you've got boxed > versions, you can always rebuild the HD...) Hi there, What's the score with obtaining o/s installation disks for NeXT, please? I have a slab here which I obtained a while back but which (to my shame) I haven't gotten around to tinkering with. I believe it has a fresh o/s install, but I'd feel more comfortable if I knew I had all the facilities to do a reinstall if necessary. Is NeXTstep considered abandonware yet? Or should I be looking on eBay for the latest version? Cheers, Stroller. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Sep 7 07:11:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200709071214.IAA03756@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, > anything more than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, > and it's straight to the spreadsheet app kept idling in the > background.) Me, for example. First, calculators are a lot more physically portable than "the spreadsheet app kept idling in the background" (which in my case is rather different, but I'm using it to refer to any kind of calculator facility on a computer). I have calculators in parts of the house where there is no computer handy. Second, the user interface is, at least in my experience of calculators and programs that can serve for similar purposes, substantially better-designed for the task. Part of this is the physical portability, but not all; a general-purpose keyboard is not the best input device for calculator functionality. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 08:56:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:56:13 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709071214.IAA03756@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> <200709071214.IAA03756@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46E1587D.40702@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, >> anything more than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, >> and it's straight to the spreadsheet app kept idling in the >> background.) > > Me, for example. > > First, calculators are a lot more physically portable than "the > spreadsheet app kept idling in the background" (which in my case is > rather different, but I'm using it to refer to any kind of calculator > facility on a computer). I have calculators in parts of the house > where there is no computer handy. > > Second, the user interface is, at least in my experience of calculators > and programs that can serve for similar purposes, substantially > better-designed for the task. Part of this is the physical > portability, but not all; a general-purpose keyboard is not the best > input device for calculator functionality. Third, it's a lot easier to do things in other number systems on a calculator than on a spreadsheet. That isn't to say it's impossible, it's just hard. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 09:44:54 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:44:54 +0100 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> Message-ID: <575131af0709070744p7748463eq4df49d69ea8249d@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > >> Hi all -- > >> > >> I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > >> two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a > >> Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a > >> development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm > >> flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so > >> I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the > >> development itself on a IIfx. > >> > >> In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of > >> sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying around > >> (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one > >> digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk network to > >> keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be > >> a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some > >> otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). > >> > > > > That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. > > > > I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the > > story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various > > elderly Macs... > > > > http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html > > > > > Thanks for the vote of support :). I think most of the code should be > dead simple but I'm not sure how the time-sync networking portion's > going to go. I also need to pick up some serial Appletalk cabling; the > SEs and the SE/30s have ethernet cards, but the Classics are > unexpandable and thus do not. Maybe I can just find some more SEs to > use :). > > I hope to get most of the work done this weekend, assuming nothing > interrupts me... ha ha ha. > > And I have a copy of the original Mac Dali clock on one of my macs... > somewhere :). I have a great deal of LocalTalk & Farallon PhoneNet that you're welcome to - but I suspect it's on the wrong side of the Atlantic. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 10:01:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:01:19 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 4:02 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump >> Card. > > Ahhh, > i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... > ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a construction article, after all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 10:03:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:03:21 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 3:23 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, > anything more > than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, and it's > straight to the > spreadsheet app kept idling in the background.) I do. I use an HP-28S (for programming-related tasks) and an HP-41CV (for everything else) pretty much daily. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 10:07:52 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:07:52 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <967887.97474.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <967887.97474.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <596748FE-5D6F-4191-A3BA-581831253A64@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 7:13 PM, Chris M wrote: >> I have (I think) everything Ciarcia has ever >> written...I don't >> think he ever did anything with the 68020. > > this is probably it: > > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=19038. > 19042&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=28963802&CFTOKEN=27219755 > > I guess it was SC after all... I assume you meant "wasn't"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 11:01:36 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:01:36 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070907154806.4E268FB8E0@mac-mini.local> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:01:19 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Sep 7, 2007, at 4:02 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >>> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump >>> Card. >> >> Ahhh, >> i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... >> ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( > Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a >construction article, after all. ... my fingers are all thumbs when it comes to hardware development. I'm more interested in "low level" programming Ciao Bernd From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Sep 7 11:22:41 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:22:41 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc Message-ID: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> der Mouse wrote: > Second, the user interface is, at least in my experience of calculators > and programs that can serve for similar purposes, substantially > better-designed for the task. Part of this is the physical > portability, but not all; a general-purpose keyboard is not the best > input device for calculator functionality. I think older calculators actually do a better job than many modern calculators. With modern calculators, I feel like I do with modern DVD player remote controls: way too many buttons, way too many suboptions and menus to do what I actually want. Bit-mapped LCD screens with their ability to do menus and option lists are part of the evil. Go back to devices before them, and you find the core functionality (and all functionality for that matter) directly accessible. After them, everything is on a menu on a submenu on a ... You'd think there'd be fewer buttons with all the menus, but you'd be wrong! Of course I am often frustrated with modern digital scopes. Several of the better brands actually bring out onto knobs (well, they're probably really shaft encoders now) all the traditional analog knobs that should be on a scope. But other brands and lesser models put everything behind a menu. Arggghhh! As for the perfect user interface for VCR's, I think back to the first home units: to record a program in advance, you turn the channel knob to the channel you want, and turn some dials to set the timers for start and stop times. Wonderful! Here we are, decades later, and some of the low-end VCR's are actually approaching this functionality with one or two record buttons. But it's still not as good! Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 12:07:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:07:40 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 9:58, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Steve Ciarcia's Trump Card (Z-8001) >From the article at http://www.dtweed.com/circuitcellar/trumpcrd.pdf It seems that the big advantage cited by Ciarcia was the ability to run a compile-in-place languge called TBASIC to gain performance. Given the prices on his cards, it hardly seems like a bargain. If one wanted to goof around with the Z8000 family as a coprocessor card, I'd be sore tempted to wire up something with a Z8002 and 64K of SRAM. You get the instructions without the expense and you don't have to deal with the (awful) Z8000 segmented mode. And relatively easy to do a lashup. Instead of Ciarcia's bucket, you could probably do with a single Z8036. Fit the whole thing on a "short" card. IMOHO, only Motorola and NS of all of the "16 bit" chip producers ever understood the importance of a continuous non-segmented memory space. Given the time of introduction, I consider the 68K to be a marvel of MPU design. Too bad IBM didn't adopt it for the PC. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 12:12:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:12:54 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <46E12426.4843.246004E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:22, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I think older calculators actually do a better job than many modern > calculators. Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto radios--while a passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would tune to a certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't know--I haven't figured out how to work the thing yet". I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for volume, the other for tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. Pull to set, push to switch. Cheers, Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 7 13:18:23 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:18:23 -0500 Subject: Compupro Concurrent DOS 4.1 bug report Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> C O M P U P R O PRODUCT ASSURANCE TECHNICAL BULLETIN BULLETIN #39 6/3/86 ***************************************************************** SUBJECT: PATCHES TO BDOS.CON TO CORRECT BUGS DEALING WITH DOS MEDIA ON CONCURRENT DOS 4.1 SYSTEMS PRODUCTS AFFECTED: ALL SYSTEMS USING CONCURRENT DOS 4.1 WITH DOS MEDIA PROBLEM: Two bugs have been identified by Mickey Singer from Personalized Programming in the BDOS.CON module from Digital Research. These two patches deal with a bug in the LRU buffering with DOS media, and a record locking bug in subdirectories in DOS media. These two patches have been recommended by Personalized Programming, but are not official Digital Research patches. CompuPro is not currently installing these patches in the 4.1 releases of Concurrent DOS, but recommends that they be installed if using record locking with DOS media. SOLUTION: The solution to this problem is to patch the BDOS.CON module and then regenerate the CCPM.SYS file from this patched module. The procedure for this patch is listed below: PATCH PROCEDURE: Make a back-up copy of BDOS.CON before using SID86.CMD to make the following changes. User entries are underlined. 0A>SID86 SID86 1.0 #rBDOS.CON START END XXXX:0000 XXXX:5AFF #XCS CS 0000 YYYY (Where YYYY=XXXX+8) DS 0000 YYYY SS WXYZ . #LA3A,A3A XXXX:0A3A JNZ 0A59 (LRU BUG) #aA3A XXXX:0A3A JNZ A9A XXXX:0A3C . #L2189,218F XXXX:2189 MOV AX,[0BB9] (RECORD LOCKING BUG) XXXX:218C MOV [0882,AX XXXX:218F MOV AX,[08E7] PRODUCT ASSURANCE TECHME39.DOC 6/3/86 PAGE 1 of 2 #a2189 XXXX:2189 CALL 1EF4 XXXX:218C JZ 21A2 XXXX:218E NOP XXXX:218F NOP XXXX:2190 NOP XXXX:2191 NOP XXXX:2192 . #L1EF4,1EF8 XXXX:1EF4 MOV BX,[BX] XXXX:1EF6 OR BX,BX XXXX:1EF8 JZ 1F08 #A1EF4 XXXX:1EF4 MOV AX,[0BB9] XXXX:1EF7 MOV [0882],AX XXXX:1EFA OR AX,AX XXXX:1EFC MOV AX,[08E7] XXXX:1EFF RET XXXX:1F00 . #wBDOS.CON #^C 0A> Save this new corrected copy of BDOS.CON so that the next time you GENCCPM a system, you will use the corrected module. At this time, you can regenerate your CCPM.SYS file as described in your documentation. Any questions concerning this Technical Bulletin should be addressed to: Product Assurance Department CompuPro/Viasyn Corporation 26538 Danti Court Hayward, CA 94545-3999 PRODUCT ASSURANCE TECHME39.DOC 6/3/86 PAGE 2 of 2 ----- 190. [Internet] "Ist es eine Leitungsst?rung? Ist es ein Coredump? Nein, es ist sendmail.cf." --Kristian K?hntopp --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:26:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:26:49 -0600 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <000f01c7f117$2852b800$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <46E08BB8.1060408@jetnet.ab.ca> <000f01c7f117$2852b800$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <46E197E9.6040402@jetnet.ab.ca> Steven Canning wrote: > Even though that is a lovely device and I am certainly a fan of > SpareTimeGizmos - that particular unit only monitors the frequency of the AC > line and not any voltage monitoring. Well I think that would be a useful addition. I knew he did something with AC but just not what. > Best regards, Steven C. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:30:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:30:19 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Ahhh, > i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... > ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( That was the only Z8000 project I knew of. I wonder if it was do to the fact the Z8000 could of had lots of hardware bugs nobody could use it. > Ciao Bernd From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Sep 7 13:30:44 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:30:44 -0400 Subject: Strange ADVENT error messages (OS/8) In-Reply-To: References: <200709062154.l86Lsu5f051839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200709071830.l87IUilG016953@mail.itm-inst.com> At 10:42 PM 9/6/2007, you wrote: >Today I set out to debug my other (previously donated/defective) >16K core board in order to have a full 32K in my 8/A. The board >was completely dead (0000 at all locations). A quick test program >to read all locations in field 4-7 and a little scope work (it's >handy to have a current probe) showed that one of the two >paralleled X Read/Write drive transistors was defective and so >that stack current pulse was only half amplitude. After replacing >the transistor, powering back up and booting OS/8 from my RL02, a >MEM command now showed "32K MEMORY!" :) > >Everything pretty much seems to be working just like before (such >as LUNAR in PFOCAL, and various BASIC programs). But when I >attempt to run ADVENT I get the following bizarre error messages: > >DIVIDE BY 0 ID("IL 0000 >DIVIDE BY 0 ID("IL 0000 >DIVIDE BY 0 ID:SIL 0357 >DIVIDE BY 0 IE\/IM 0000 >BAD ARG IE\/IM 0000 >ID:SIL 0357 >IANBII 0000 >IEG8IM 0000 >IEH?IM 0000 >IE BIM 7240 >IAVBII 0000 > >and then it either returns to the dot prompt or crashes. That's pretty bad. How are you starting up ADVENT, and what version are you using? If it's an old ADVENT.SV, there's a chance it's gotten screwed up due to different environment. For the new version, I don't try to build a core image precisely for that reason. Your FRTS may also be outdated, old, etc. However, that's less likely given that the copy works OK under SIMH. >This looks to me like part of a file is corrupted (the presumed >garbles are repeatable), but I don't know which one... any >thoughts? I haven't run a test pattern on the "new" core board and >wonder if it could be the source of this error. Rick M. are you >out there? ;) It's also possible that the core module is still flaky. Might want to consider running the diags and see what happens. -Rick From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:36:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:36:15 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a construction > article, after all. Since when have you seen a computer contruction article that you DID not have send alway for PCB layouts or firmware? > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 13:36:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:36:54 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 2:30 PM, woodelf wrote: >> i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... >> ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( > > That was the only Z8000 project I knew of. I wonder if it was > do to the fact the Z8000 could of had lots of hardware bugs nobody > could use it. That's funny. I used a Z8000-based system for quite a while. It certainly wasn't the case that *nobody* could use it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:39:01 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:39:01 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E19AC5.9060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > IMOHO, only Motorola and NS of all of the "16 bit" chip producers > ever understood the importance of a continuous non-segmented memory > space. Given the time of introduction, I consider the 68K to be a > marvel of MPU design. Too bad IBM didn't adopt it for the PC. Too bad IBM sold the WRONG PC. Some sort of LAB computer IBM made had a 68000 I think. > Cheers, > Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:42:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:42:31 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E12426.4843.246004E5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <46E12426.4843.246004E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E19B97.4050503@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto radios--while a > passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would tune to a > certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't know--I haven't > figured out how to work the thing yet". Why bother ... they all play THUMP THUMP THUMP music. :( > I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for volume, the other for > tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. Pull to set, push > to switch. The same goes for microwaves, full of buttons. Commerical microwaves I have seen are different. One row of 10 buttons, 1 to 10 minutes. They don't have time to play the buttons, just use the product. > Cheers, > Chuck > > > . > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 13:44:32 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E12426.4843.246004E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:22, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I think older calculators actually do a better job > than many modern > > calculators. > > Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto > radios--while a > passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would > tune to a > certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't > know--I haven't > figured out how to work the thing yet". > > I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for > volume, the other for > tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. > Pull to set, push > to switch. Agreed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people (people here, especially) will agree that user interfaces on devices of all kinds has gone downhill. Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls are a thing of the past. Everything now needs to be an aesthetic design element. Cars, calculators, hi-fi equipment, it's all turned to this mess. I wonder just what happened. All-encompassing function knobs, menus for Bass and Treble, confusing symbols, unlabeled indicator lamps - it's a mess. Gone is the simplicity of a switch labeled "HEADLIGHTS", replaced with a confusing array of symbols on a knob. While they were at it, designers decided that it would be a good idea for power indicators to light up when something is off, and go out when it's on. Or how about a stereo with an animated "attract mode" when off? I could go on and on, but I'm sure everyone gets the point. There was a time when you could walk up to any radio/hi-fi/television/car and instantly be able to operate it. Not anymore. But - remember - all these craptacular interfaces are cheaper to build, think of that. Yay. And... this is drifting off topic too... -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:48:02 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:48:02 -0400 Subject: ST-412 Message-ID: Anyone need an ST-412 HDD? I am pretty sure this one works. Cheap! Five bucks? Ten bucks? I think this should fit in a Flat Rate box, so shipping anywhere US should be about 9 or 10 bucks as well. -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Sep 7 13:45:16 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:45:16 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? Message-ID: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what purpose. For myself, I have the addiction of fixing RT-11 bugs in the operating system as well as making enhancements. Ten years ago, I even produced most of the Y2K changes that were required for V05.04G of RT-11 for a customer who could not wait for Mentec. Eventually, I want to produce a set of Y9K changes to allow years up to 9999 to be used. Other enhancements include SL: and a new pseudo device driver, SB: (SymBolic device list device driver) which is similar to the VMS SNL (Symbolic Name List), but operates only on a device which supports a directory as does PATH for DOS. At one point it was named PH: for Path Handler, but SB: seems a better choice. Even more reasonable would be Symbolic device List or SL:, but SL: is already used by the Single Line editor (or the DOSKEY interface). Symbolic Debugger is also taken for SD: Lately, I mostly use Ersatz-11 and I have been making changes and enhancements to the HD: (Hypothetical Disk) device driver that John Wilson originally wrote in 1995. The challenge I set myself was to produce a VM(X).SYS equivalent that is: (a) Faster - about 3 times as fast (b) Higher capacity - a full 65536 blocks vs 8192 blocks (c) Smaller number of LOADed words in low memory (d) Support the command SET VM: [NO]WRITE plus a number of other useful features. Well, one idea led to another and other versions are also being tested which support 8 units and eventually 64 units (with monitors that have that support as well). If there is any interest, eventually a translation table similar to the one used by DU(X).SYS is possible. In addition, full 32 bit block number support will be done eventually which will allow 2 TeraByte disk drives. The other HD: related code that is also interesting is the ability to interface the HD: device directly from user code WITHOUT a device driver. So while the HD: is about twice as fast as DU(X).SYS when a device driver HD(X).SYS is used, the direct user interface (which avoids all the overhead of a system EMT call) is about twice as fast again. For this user interface, 32 bit blocks numbers are already possible. Under a Windows (YEK !! Double YEK) operating system or even just DOS, all disk access is completed before the HD: returns control to the RT-11 operating system. Consequently, no interrupts are required. I am not sure about Linux operation, but if anyone does know, please advise. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Sep 7 13:46:06 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:46:06 -0400 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: References: <1188959627.46de158b81aa3@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <46E19C6E.8070300@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >My first -11 hard drive controller was an RLV11 that ran me about >$100. I dropped into a BA-11N w/KDF11, DLV11J, MSV11-mumble (M8044), >and LPV11 that all ran me $300 in 1986. I borrowed a VT220, an RL01, >and an LA180 from my main PDP-8/a, I made a living on that -11 for >almost two years. I still have it in a slightly improved form (I >upgraded the backplane to 22-bit and threw more memory into it). I >ran RT-11 v5.something on it for years (5.3?) Very nice system, but >so is the OP's 11/03 w/floppy. > Jerome Fine replies: I seem to remember that my first (i.e. not the system I used at work sites) was a VT103 with a PDP-11/23 inside and a DSD 880/8 floppy / hard drive combo. The latter was an 8 MB RL01 emulation combined with RX02 (actually RX03 although DEC never released their version) 1/2 MB SSDD 8" floppy emulation. I seem to remember V04.00 of RT-11. The floppy served as the backup, but I found the floppy far too slow to be truly useful as compared with the hard drive. Plus, with only the single floppy drive, it would not have been possible to save files, etc. >RT-11 works fine on a floppy-only system. It works *great* on a >hard-disk system. It was one of my favorite environments before I >managed to scrape together my first UNIX system a few years later. > I agree that if someone had a dual RX02 floppy system without a hard drive, useful work could be done but much more slowly. I also seem to remember that the VT103 backplane was upgraded to 22 bit memory support and a Sigma RQD11-B MFM controller was briefly added to the backplane to support a Seagate 10 MB hard drive (was actually an old DEC RD51) that somehow was squeezed in beside the power supply. At one even shorter period of time, the VT103 backplane had a PDP-11/73 quad CPU, 4 MB of memory, DHV11 and a Sigma RQD11-EC controller that supported FOUR * 600 MB ESDI Hitachi hard drives although it was essential that all of the hard drives were placed OUTSIDE the VT103 since each required its own fan and all of the hard drives and their fans also used a separate external power supply. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:56:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:56:42 -0500 Subject: ST-412 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/07, William Donzelli wrote: > Anyone need an ST-412 HDD? I am pretty sure this one works. Cheap! > Five bucks? Ten bucks? I think this should fit in a Flat Rate box, so > shipping anywhere US should be about 9 or 10 bucks as well. As an incentive, if anyone out there has a Rainbow or a MicroVAX I or a DEC Professional, this drive is also known as an RD51 and will work, unmodified, in a variety of DEC machines. -ethan P.S. - for the pedantic, all ST-506/ST-412 drives need to be formatted to their specific host controller - that doesn't count as "modification"; certainly not in the sense of needing to add the R7 jumper to make a Micropolis 1335 into an RD53. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 13:58:23 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:58:23 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5CF849D5-8ACB-4D40-B90A-9D8EDB399D86@neurotica.com> On Sep 7, 2007, at 2:36 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a >> construction article, after all. > Since when have you seen a computer contruction article that > you DID not have send alway for PCB layouts or firmware? Send away for them? I've not seen many for which that was a requirement. Indeed, the Trump Card schematics are present in the article (the prototype was wire-wrapped)...The code has got to be floating around somewhere. The point is...if one were suitably motivated to construct a Trump Card, it certainly wouldn't be impractical to attempt. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:10:17 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:10:17 -0500 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. Twenty years ago, I wrote a custom Computer-aided Instruction (CAI) application for an PDP-11-based ultrasonic parts inspection machine in MACRO-11 for RT-11. Besides having to carve up multi-megabyte files full of scan nybbles and throw them up onto a high-res screen with lecture text, then later administrating automated tests of the material, I also had to tweak the ultrasonic scanning machine itself, a bit of a nightmare since all the non-MACRO code was written in PASCAL. Since then, I've mostly used RT-11 for recreation and hardware checkout. If I can slap a CPU, some memory, a serial port and a disk controller together and boot it up to a '.', it tells me that I probably have a pile of working hardware. I haven't written any apps for RT-11 since 1989, but I have always wanted to fire up PLANETFALL or ZORK I on it, since long, long ago, before I owned a machine that could run Zork, I saw Planetfall on 8" floppy, hanging up in the Digital store in downtown Columbus. It's a bit of a silly play-time project, considering how many machines I now own that run a Z-machine, but I've never gotten around to running a Z-machine on a PDP-11. I know it's not hard; I just haven't whittled down the project pile to that depth yet. I probably split my PDP-11 time between RT-11 and 2BSD, having a fondness and appreciation for both. If I had a PDP-11 with mass storage that was smaller than a Professional or a BA23, I'd probably have more time to fiddle with hardware, but lately, I seem to spend more time in simh than using the real thing. I love the hardware, and I have lots of it, but it's difficult to pack one more machine into my office than I have right now. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 7 14:16:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <20070907121429.P90651@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, Tim Shoppa wrote: > As for the perfect user interface for VCR's, I think back to the > first home units: to record a program in advance, you turn the > channel knob to the channel you want, and turn some dials to > set the timers for start and stop times. Wonderful! Here we A REAL video recorder doesn't need to have a timer. If you want timer, then connect the JACK for the remote control to an unused port on your computer. A WIRED remote control can always be found by following the wire. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Sep 7 15:22:56 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:22:56 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... Message-ID: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> I'm looking for a few people to connect to a small 'server' I am running to help me test my TCP/IP for DOS. It can be reached at: telnet 24.159.200.228 2023 It does not do telnet parameter negotiation so echo and line editing are dependent upon your particular telnet client. I've found that the standard telnet client in Win XP does local echoing, Win 2K does not do local echoing, and Linux does local echoing with local line editing. If something doesn't work just try it again without any extra whitespace chars or backspaces. For the sake of traffic on the list, please use discretion when replying to this - obviously stuff of general interest should be posted publicly .. Some background on the project: I've been writing my own TCP/IP for DOS machines since around Nov 2005. Everything except the packet drivers that I am using is new code that I wrote for this project. I was busy with other things the last eight months and I'm finally getting back to working on it. (The last round of testing was in late Dec.) The development machine is a 386-40 using Turbo C++ 3.0 for DOS. The code runs reasonably well on my PCjr. Eventually I want to do a telnet BBS. A Linux box is tracing incoming and outgoing traffic in case I need to debug something that crops up. The test is running on the 386 today because I am doing extensive tracing in the code as well. This particular test code accepts connections from up to 9 clients and lets you play around with some simple commands. The idea is to exercise the TCP/IP code with multiple concurrent connections, so please excuse the simple interface. Thanks! Mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:20:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:20:34 -0500 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >My first -11 hard drive controller was an RLV11 that ran me about > >$100. I dropped into a BA-11N w/KDF11, DLV11J, MSV11-mumble (M8044), > >and LPV11 that all ran me $300 in 1986... > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I seem to remember that my first... was > a VT103 with a PDP-11/23 inside and a DSD 880/8 floppy / hard drive combo. > The latter was an 8 MB RL01 emulation combined with RX02 (actually RX03 > although DEC never released their version) 1/2 MB SSDD 8" floppy emulation. Nice rig. > At one even shorter period of time, the VT103 backplane had a > PDP-11/73 quad CPU, 4 MB of memory, DHV11 and a Sigma RQD11-EC > controller that supported FOUR * 600 MB ESDI Hitachi hard drives > although it was essential that all of the hard drives were placed > OUTSIDE the VT103 since each required its own fan and all of the > hard drives and their fans also used a separate external power > supply. Wow... that's a lotta stuff for a VT103. I have a VT103 up in the attic. I _might_ be able to squeeze a VT100 case somewhere in my office... these days, though, I'd go with a 3.5" SCSI drive and a Qbus SCSI controller. The real question is, what to choose for CPU and memory. I could easily pull a KDF11B from the shelf, add a meg or two on a quad-height board, and between those three boards, have a running system. What I think I'd prefer, though, is something with a KDJ11. So presuming one is starting from the assumption that you have a VT103 and a Qbus SCSI controller, what are good choices for the remainder of the system? One can assume that 1MB is minimum, but 4MB wouldn't be unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so I'm not as conversant with what's out there, but ISTR that there's the dual-height KDJ11A, and there must be a quad-height KDJ11 of some flavor, with a variety of common accessories, but I couldn't quote chapter and verse. I have an 11/53-level KDJ11 board from a DEC comms controller, with -11 ROMs installed, but it still has S-box handles, and only has, IIRC, 1MB on it. I'm thinking that any sort of 11/83 or 11/93 board is probably going to be priced out of my range, but I'm willing to entertain the idea. I really don't _need_ the speed of an 11/83 or 11/93, but 4MB on board is attractive (if I've got my boards right). Anyone else have any ideas on how to trick out a VT103? -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:33:17 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:33:17 +0100 Subject: Compupro Concurrent DOS 4.1 bug report In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> Message-ID: <575131af0709071233k5231ea99yea97dbd1ab7753d@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Tom Peters wrote: > 190. [Internet] "Ist es eine Leitungsst?rung? Ist es ein Coredump? Nein, es > ist > sendmail.cf." --Kristian K?hntopp [Laughter] I had to ask my German lodger for what "leitungstoering" meant, mind. Translation: "Is it line noise? Is it a coredump? No, it's sendmail.cf." :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 14:34:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:34:44 -0600 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:20:34 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > Anyone else have any ideas on how to trick out a VT103? I'd also like to hear them since I have a VT103 :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:36:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:36:08 -0500 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a construction > > article, after all. > Since when have you seen a computer contruction article that > you DID not have send alway for PCB layouts or firmware? The mid-1970s? I have a Popular Electronics with a 2/3ds-size photo-ready image of the Elf II PCB. I regularly contemplate attempting to make that one, but feel I need more PCB etching experience before trying a board that large. Of course, these days, it's easy just to recapture the schematic and make a new layout, as people have done with that exact design already. I just look at the hand-taped swirls of traces and feel that it'd be nice design to tackle. Lotsa tiny holes to drill (and stuff with bridging wires) though. But your point is taken - after that era, most designs were writeups with an address to send to for professional-quality PCBs. -ethan From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 7 15:00:50 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:00:50 -0500 Subject: Compupro Concurrent DOS 4.1 bug report In-Reply-To: <575131af0709071233k5231ea99yea97dbd1ab7753d@mail.gmail.com > References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907150001.0da2cec8@localhost> At 08:33 PM 9/7/2007 +0100, you wrote: >On 07/09/07, Tom Peters wrote: > > 190. [Internet] "Ist es eine Leitungsst?rung? Ist es ein Coredump? Nein, es > > ist > > sendmail.cf." --Kristian K?hntopp > >[Laughter] > >I had to ask my German lodger for what "leitungstoering" meant, mind. > >Translation: >"Is it line noise? Is it a coredump? No, it's sendmail.cf." :?) Glad to provide a chuckle. My file of one-liners is up to about 1200 quotes now. ----- 205. [Philosophy] Life: a sexually transmitted disease that is fatal. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 15:21:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:21:45 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E19AC5.9060707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E19AC5.9060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46E15069.20730.250CEC27@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:39, woodelf wrote: > Too bad IBM sold the WRONG PC. Some sort of LAB computer IBM made > had a 68000 I think. Ah, the IBM CS9000 "instrument computer". It was announced shortly before the 5150 and had a few people speculating that the 5150 would be 68K based also. Sadly, no: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/cs9000.html But the aesthetics were terrible... Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 7 16:11:14 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 07, 2007 02:10:17 PM Message-ID: <200709072111.l87LBEaQ023277@onyx.spiritone.com> > I haven't written any apps for RT-11 since 1989, but I have always > wanted to fire up PLANETFALL or ZORK I on it, since long, long ago, > before I owned a machine that could run Zork, I saw Planetfall on 8" > floppy, hanging up in the Digital store in downtown Columbus. It's a > bit of a silly play-time project, considering how many machines I now > own that run a Z-machine, but I've never gotten around to running a > Z-machine on a PDP-11. I know it's not hard; I just haven't whittled > down the project pile to that depth yet. You do realize that a Z-machine exists for RT-11, don't you? Johnny wrote it a few years back (~2001 probably), Megan ported it, and some work was done a couple years ago to get the latest version building on RT-11 again. Zane From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Sep 7 16:31:56 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:31:56 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <200709071510.l87FAF1x064399@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709071510.l87FAF1x064399@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 10:10 -0500 9/7/07, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Hi there, > >What's the score with obtaining o/s installation disks for NeXT, >please? I have a slab here which I obtained a while back but which >(to my shame) I haven't gotten around to tinkering with. I believe it >has a fresh o/s install, but I'd feel more comfortable if I knew I >had all the facilities to do a reinstall if necessary. > >Is NeXTstep considered abandonware yet? Or should I be looking on >eBay for the latest version? > >Cheers, > >Stroller. Vendors I know about: http://www.blackholeinc.com/specials/blackhardware.shtml http://www.channelu.com/Turbo/NeXT/software.html Have dealt with the latter, he's a good guy. Don't know about the former. EBay is not a bad bet. For an early cube or slab, be sure you get the boot floppy with the media, or if not let me know and I (?) think I can write one for you. You'll also need the correct cable and a 512-byte SCSI CD drive; a FAQ that should help with that is pointed to from: http://www.museplan.com/projects/next-mac-faq/next-mac-faq.html Look down to the Q: Where can I find the main NextStep FAQ?, follow that link, go to section 5.6. Hope this helps. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 16:51:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:51:00 -0500 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <200709072111.l87LBEaQ023277@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200709072111.l87LBEaQ023277@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > You do realize that a Z-machine exists for RT-11, don't you? Johnny wrote > it a few years back (~2001 probably), Megan ported it, and some work was > done a couple years ago to get the latest version building on RT-11 again. Yes. I am entirely aware of that effort and have a copy already. I was more thinking of running the classic (c. 1984) Z-machine on contemporary hardware, for the sole fact that at that time, I had a PDP-8, but lusted after a PDP-11 (I bought my first one in 1986, the $300 I wrote about recently). This is entirely a nostalgia thing. Nothing practical about it. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 7 17:07:03 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 07, 2007 04:51:00 PM Message-ID: <200709072207.l87M73wR024741@onyx.spiritone.com> > Yes. I am entirely aware of that effort and have a copy already. I > was more thinking of running the classic (c. 1984) Z-machine on > contemporary hardware, for the sole fact that at that time, I had a > PDP-8, but lusted after a PDP-11 (I bought my first one in 1986, the > $300 I wrote about recently). > > This is entirely a nostalgia thing. Nothing practical about it. > > -ethan That is understandable. Though good luck finding a copy. I'm not aware of *anyone* that has a copy, in fact you're about the only one that has even seen a copy. :^( Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 17:15:49 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:15:49 -0500 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <200709072207.l87M73wR024741@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200709072207.l87M73wR024741@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > That is understandable. Though good luck finding a copy. I'm not aware of > *anyone* that has a copy, in fact you're about the only one that has even > seen a copy. :^( I _may_ have a copy of a .SAV file of an RT-11 Z-machine somewhere in an ancient e-mail or an archive somewhere on a disk, but I am reasonably certain that I do not have a whole-game disk image. I really did see a commercial copy, printed package and all, hanging on a peg. It's one of those things that I'm regretting that I didn't purchase, but, as I said, at the time, I only had a 4K PDP-8, and merely lusted after a *POWERFUL* PDP-11 ;-) Another one my dream projects is a 12-bit Z-machine. There are a variety of technical reasons that make it a difficult project, so I am mired in the woolgathering stage. :-( -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 17:46:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:46:03 -0600 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 Message-ID: I received this email today offering a VAX 11/750. I have no connection with the current owner. I have set the Reply-To for this message to the owner. Hopefully someone can rescue this. -- Richard =-=-=-=-=-=-= Original email We have a Digital VAX 11750 in storage that we need to find a home for. We have never used this as it was acquired by us when we purchased another company and was simply put into storage at that time. Do you have any idea if anyone would be interested in this? I would hate to see it hauled to the garbage if there is someone out there that would like to have it. Thank you for any help that you may provide. Regards, Lori G. Lee Quintek Technologies, Inc. 208-847-3618 208-847-3619 Fax llee at quintek.com www.quintek.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 17:50:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:50:29 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Richard wrote: > I received this email today offering a VAX 11/750. I have no > connection with the current owner. I have set the Reply-To for this > message to the owner. Hopefully someone can rescue this. > > -- Richard > > =-=-=-=-=-=-= Original email > > We have a Digital VAX 11750 in storage that we need to find a home for. > We have never used this as it was acquired by us when we purchased another > company and was simply put into storage at that time. Do you have any > idea if anyone would be interested in this? I would hate to see it hauled > to the garbage if there is someone out there that would like to have it. > > > Regards, > > Lori G. Lee > Quintek Technologies, Inc. > > 208-847-3618 > 208-847-3619 Fax > llee at quintek.com Idaho?!? Wow... hopefully someone is close enough to pick this up. The 11/750 is a *niiiice* machine. I can't believe there's still a NOS 11/750 out there, but it'll be a sweet acquisition for someone. -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 17:50:44 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:50:44 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... Message-ID: Hi, I have a Dazzler board set that _almost_ works. Gray scale looks good and color looks OK, except that it's gray too. The shades of gray change when I flip the color bit at I/O address 0x0F and the red and green pots and the blue variable cap change the display when in color mode. The monitor I'm using is tested good with a color CCTV camera I have lying around. The geometry changes as expected with bit changes at 0x0F and the "dots" change as expected when the memory at the address assigned at 0x0E is modified. My guess is that something is wrong in the color burst (is that the right name?) circuit? Or is it possible that there is something different about the signal that a newer (manufactured Jan. 1993) color monitor wouldn't like? Unfortunately, the scan of the Dazzler manual on the Harte Technologies web site is not at a high enough resolution for the schematics to be read in detail. A better scan of the schematics would be greatly appreciated as would any other help, video signal generation is not my strong suit. Thanks, Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 3:18 PM From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 17:55:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:55:01 -0600 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:46:03 -0600. Message-ID: Oops, looks like the Reply-To setting gets changed, so please reply to the owner directly. Its apparently in Montpelier, ID. Hopefully someone can adopt this to a loving home. If you need help arranging pickup or whatnot, give me a hollar. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 18:03:33 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:03:33 -0600 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:50:29 -0500. Message-ID: I guess I was under the impression that the 11/750 was a larger machine than it seems as pictured here: Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Sep 7 18:07:22 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:07:22 -0400 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> Check out the UPS backups, APC has a line which I'm certain has a power monitoring log so you can see when the voltage sags or spikes and records power outages. Curt Richard wrote: > Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the > net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking > for. > > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. > > Any suggestions? > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 18:07:51 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 18:07:51 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Richard wrote: > > I guess I was under the impression that the 11/750 was a larger > machine than it seems as pictured here: > > > Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? > > If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. Dunno about a VUE, but I did transport an 11/750 across Ohio in the back of a Chevy Astro. I even managed to extract it alone - they aren't that heavy - lots of empty space. If you de-install the PSUs, one person should be able to move it solo without too much difficulty. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:18:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:18:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <46E000F5.6024.1FEE9275@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 6, 7 01:30:29 pm Message-ID: > Let's be clear here--I interpret 5.25 DD to be 360K (250K data rate > at 300 RPM) at 48 tpi. And "quad" to me is the same data rate but > narrower tracks for 96 tpi and 720K. AFAIK, the only difference > between DSDD and DSQD was the supposed certification provided by the > mnaufacturer. I never found any difference at all. When the PC was the only current machine with 5.25" drives, I bought several boxes of name=brand 5.25" DD disks that would format reliably as 40 cylinder disks on a PC and similarly on other machines (and which are still readable), but which would not format reliably as 80 cylinder disks. And yes, I am clueful enough not be be complaining they didn't work as HD disks on a PC/AT. What I a talking about is formatting them as 80 cylinder disks on BBC micros, TRS80s, etc. I assume it was something like an increased background noise level. I cna think of no other explanation. Incidentally, I was given a couple of plastic carrier bags full of bulk-erased DEC RX50 disks. Although these were only ever indended to be used as signle-sided disks, I have never had one fail to format 80 cylinders _double_ sided. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:46:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:46:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Sep 7, 7 00:23:29 am Message-ID: > (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, anything mor= Me, for one... > e > than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, and it's straight t= > o the > spreadsheet app kept idling in the background.) > You clearly work near a computer all the time, I don't. It's a darn site easier to find somewhere to stick the HP16C when working on a minicomputer system, than to find somewhere to put even a laptop computer. And similarly it's a lot easier to sit an HP42S on a lathe bed than a PC. For more 'mathematical' stuff, I use my HP48 or HP49. For 'programming-realted' stuff I use an HP41 or HP71... Note the common manufacturer ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:58:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:58:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Sep 7, 7 12:22:41 pm Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: > > Second, the user interface is, at least in my experience of calculators > > and programs that can serve for similar purposes, substantially > > better-designed for the task. Part of this is the physical > > portability, but not all; a general-purpose keyboard is not the best > > input device for calculator functionality. > > I think older calculators actually do a better job than many modern > calculators. Now why do you think there's an HP16C on my electronics bench and rarely a day goes by that I don't turn on at least one of my HP41s.... > > With modern calculators, I feel like I do with modern DVD player > remote controls: way too many buttons, way too many suboptions > and menus to do what I actually want. > > Bit-mapped LCD screens with their ability to do menus and option > lists are part of the evil. Go back to devices before them, and you > find the core functionality (and all functionality for that matter) > directly accessible. After them, everything is on a menu on a > submenu on a ... You'd think there'd be fewer buttons with all > the menus, but you'd be wrong! For a classic example of this, try using the binary, octal, or hex modes on the latest HP35S. To call then unusable would be being kind. Let me explain To selet the mode, you select the 'Bases' menu, then either press 1 ... 4 or move the curser to the apropratiate item on the display and hit enter. The problem is that this only sets the _display_ mode. If yoy select hex mode and then enter 42, it's interpretted as 42 _decimal_ (and displayed as 2A). To get 42 hex you type 42, then select the bases menu, scroll down, and select the lower case 'h' on that menu. I think you can hit the appropratie digit key -- if you can remember it. Whoever thought up that user interface has clearly never had to decode a hex tump. And that's why that 16C is staying on my bench! > > Of course I am often frustrated with modern digital scopes. > Several of the better brands actually bring out onto knobs (well, > they're probably really shaft encoders now) all the traditional > analog knobs that should be on a scope. But other brands and > lesser models put everything behind a menu. Arggghhh! Or haev one know that sets the Y gain, trigger level, timebase speed, X shift, Y shift, etc depending on which menu/key you used last. And often said instruments don't even display what the knob currently controls. If you gorget, you can find you meant to shift the trace across a bit, but in fact you've just twiddeled your carefully-adjusted trigger level. > As for the perfect user interface for VCR's, I think back to the > first home units: to record a program in advance, you turn the > channel knob to the channel you want, and turn some dials to > set the timers for start and stop times. Wonderful! Here we The first home VCR in the UK (Philips N1500) had an analogue clock. To set the timer, you twlddled knobs onthat that changed the position and length of a coloured arc on the clock face. When the hour hand was within that arc, the machine fired up. Since the longest tape was one hour, the lrngth of the arc was limited to 1 hour on the dial. There was another knob with '12' and '24' positins. In the former case, the machine turned on the first time the hour hand came round to the arc (in other words sometime in the next 12 hours), in the latter, the second time it came round (12-24 hours). Worked well, easy to understand... Another thin I can't stnad are touch-sensitive displays on cellular phones, handhelds, etc. A real keyboard can be used one-handed, _without looking at it_. There ahve been many times I've been watching something else (say a measuring instruemtn) and wanted to type in numbers to a calculator. Impossible on these modern touch-screen PDA.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 18:03:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 00:03:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 7, 7 12:36:15 pm Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a construction > > article, after all. > Since when have you seen a computer contruction article that > you DID not have send alway for PCB layouts or firmware? I know that's a rhetorical question, but I have to answer it :-) PE (Practical Electorncc) 'CHAMP' system, in 1977 or so. It was built on stribboard (and IC postion layouts were given, but you had to work out where to run the wires from the shcematic). As was the assembly listing of the monitor ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:38:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:38:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061825m313b7099jcc8e140c6493b0ba@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 7, 7 02:25:18 am Message-ID: > There was the QXL and QXL2, Sinclair QL-compatibles on an ISA card, > using the PC as a host and for I/O: > http://sinclairql.emuunlim.com/hardware.html > > ISTR an Amiga version of something like this but I can't recall any > details, alas. Has anyone mentioned the Apple-][-on-an-ISA-card yet? There were at least 2 of them, they connected to the disk drives and CGA card too, and let you run Apple ][ software on a PC system, copy files between PC and Apple disks, etc. And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an ISA card. Never seen it, though -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 18:19:13 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:19:13 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I can't believe there's still a NOS 11/750 out there, but it'll be a > sweet acquisition for someone. You can not assume it is NOS. It could have been working in a coal mine for years, by the previous owner, not the current one. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 7 18:32:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070907162822.F747@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Has anyone mentioned the Apple-][-on-an-ISA-card yet? There were at least > 2 of them, they connected to the disk drives and CGA card too, and let > you run Apple ][ software on a PC system, copy files between PC and Apple > disks, etc. Quadlink from Quadram: We had a 70% DOA rate on about 3 dozen, including 70% DOA rate on the replacements, including connectors installed wrong (such that the board could not be installed) Diamond Trackstar 128: for a while was available through Radio Shack From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 18:44:20 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <131049.32610.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its > side or back? > > > > If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. > > Dunno about a VUE, but I did transport an 11/750 > across Ohio in the > back of a Chevy Astro. I even managed to extract it > alone - they > aren't that heavy - lots of empty space. If you > de-install the PSUs, > one person should be able to move it solo without > too much difficulty. I transported mine in the back of a Chevy Venture, along with a Vax 6000. They're bulky, but not impossible to move alone. Uses the same side panels as a TU80, and it's about 30" wide. -Ian From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 7 18:43:47 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:43:47 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200709071943.47782.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 07 September 2007 14:30, woodelf wrote: > Bernd Kopriva wrote: > > Ahhh, > > i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... > > ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( > > That was the only Z8000 project I knew of. I wonder if it was > do to the fact the Z8000 could of had lots of hardware bugs nobody > could use it. That seems unlikely, considering that Tellabs used the Z8002 in a lot of telco gear (of which I have some boards from). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 18:46:46 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BA123 power supply signal question Message-ID: <278854.92368.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On a BA123 power supply, each regulator has three non-power pins - LTC, POK and DCOK. Am I correct to assume these are TTL level outputs? What is the computer expecting to get from these three lines if everything is OK? -Ian From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Sep 7 19:11:04 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:11:04 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> At 07:03 PM 9/7/2007, Richard wrote: >I guess I was under the impression that the 11/750 was a larger >machine than it seems as pictured here: > > >Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? > >If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. I think so. The back of the VUE has 37 inches between the wheel well humps in the back; as long as you fold the rear seats down it should fit OK. ("Should" as I don't know the height, but don't think it's much more than a yard tall. -Rick From rcini at optonline.net Fri Sep 7 19:11:24 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:11:24 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill: To me it does sound like the color burst frequency is off. Maybe there's a trimmer cap somewhere that needs adjusting. Take a look at my Web site ( http://www.altair32.com/Altair32links.htm) and look for the Dazzler manual near the end of the page. My docs are from a different source than Howard's and might be of a better quality. Rich On 9/7/07 6:50 PM, "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > Hi, > > I have a Dazzler board set that _almost_ works. > Gray scale looks good and color looks OK, except > that it's gray too. The shades of gray change > when I flip the color bit at I/O address 0x0F and > the red and green pots and the blue variable cap > change the display when in color mode. The monitor > I'm using is tested good with a color CCTV camera > I have lying around. The geometry changes as > expected with bit changes at 0x0F and the "dots" > change as expected when the memory at the address > assigned at 0x0E is modified. My guess is that > something is wrong in the color burst (is that the > right name?) circuit? Or is it possible that there > is something different about the signal that a newer > (manufactured Jan. 1993) color monitor wouldn't like? > Unfortunately, the scan of the Dazzler manual on the > Harte Technologies web site is not at a high enough > resolution for the schematics to be read in detail. > A better scan of the schematics would be greatly > appreciated as would any other help, video signal > generation is not my strong suit. > > Thanks, > Bill > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 > 3:18 PM > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From martinm at allwest.net Fri Sep 7 19:14:20 2007 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 18:14:20 -0600 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c7f1ad$3705ed40$0202a8c0@p4266> > > Its apparently in Montpelier, ID. Hopefully someone can > adopt this to a loving home. If you need help arranging > pickup or whatnot, give me a hollar. > -- Richard: Do you know when it needs to be removed? I live in Evanston, WY, and I need to go to Fish Haven, ID in a week or so. Fish Haven is about 35 miles from Montpelier. I can fit it in my Suburban then. This could lead to the VAX / VMS world.... Martin From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 7 19:14:01 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:14:01 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 07 September 2007 20:11, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 07:03 PM 9/7/2007, Richard wrote: > >I guess I was under the impression that the 11/750 was a larger > >machine than it seems as pictured here: > > > > > >Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? > > > >If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. > > I think so. The back of the VUE has 37 inches between the wheel well > humps in the back; as long as you fold the rear seats down it should > fit OK. ("Should" as I don't know the height, but don't think it's > much more than a yard tall. My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 19:18:49 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:18:49 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730709071718q69765f62j2d804b8717dda3c1@mail.gmail.com> On 9/7/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Idaho?!? > > Wow... hopefully someone is close enough to pick this up. The 11/750 > is a *niiiice* machine. Must....deny....desire....for.....road....trip... ~1400 miles each way...beautiful country....big VAX.... Hope *someone* gets it, anyway. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 19:20:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:20:58 -0700 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 20:14, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. That's just the CPU--if there is a complete installation with extra cabinets for disk/tape drives (not atypical), it could get to be a bit bigger :). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 19:35:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:35:08 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: References: <46E000F5.6024.1FEE9275@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 6, 7 01:30:29 pm, Message-ID: <46E18BCC.13589.25F4E440@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 23:18, Tony Duell wrote: > And yes, I am clueful enough not be be complaining they didn't work as HD > disks on a PC/AT. What I a talking about is formatting them as 80 > cylinder disks on BBC micros, TRS80s, etc. > > I assume it was something like an increased background noise level. I cna > think of no other explanation. Dunno, but when we were selling our own-branded Dysan 100 tpi diskettes, I was told by the Dysan sales tech that the formulation was exactly the same as the 48 tpi versions; that only the verification process was different. Maybe the UK got all of the floor sweepings; I don't know. I do know that the certifiers used for DSDD diskettes were programmed to toss a cookie that verified fine on one side but not the other into the "about to become SSDD" media pile. That's not to say that the occasional branded-and-certified-as-100- tpi diskette failed to format either. There was a reason that everyone had a flawing mechanism of some sort built into most operating systems. And our application was a bit tougher than most as we were packing something like 950K in a 77cyl * 2sides *12sect * 512bytes format using GCR and an elevated clock rate. This was a couple of years before Osborne was putting, what, 90K on a 5.25" floppy? Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 7 19:37:24 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:37:24 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709072037.24575.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 07 September 2007 20:20, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Sep 2007 at 20:14, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. > > That's just the CPU--if there is a complete installation with extra > cabinets for disk/tape drives (not atypical), it could get to be a > bit bigger :). Hey, at least you can put UNIBUS cards in the CPU box, unlike the 11/780, which requires another rack for that. With a UNIBUS SCSI disk controller, and a little bit of clever placement, you could fit an entire system for an 11/750 into just the CPU rack. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 7 19:29:37 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:29:37 +0100 Subject: BA123 power supply signal question In-Reply-To: <278854.92368.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <278854.92368.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E1ECF1.90008@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/09/2007 00:46, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > On a BA123 power supply, each regulator has three > non-power pins - LTC, POK and DCOK. Am I correct to > assume these are TTL level outputs? What is the > computer expecting to get from these three lines if > everything is OK? They're TTL open-collector signals, same as the rest of the QBus. The LTC is a square wave at line frequency used for a real-time clock. DCOK is an active-high signal indicating that the DC power is available to run the processor. It's derived from the regulator output and when the power isn't OK, it's pulled low. POK is derived from the AC input and is also high when everything is fine. It's pulled low when the AC power disappears and is used to initiate a power-fail trap on the processor, shortly before the DC power is lost. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 19:49:12 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:49:12 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > To me it does sound like the color burst frequency is off. > Maybe there's > a trimmer cap somewhere that needs adjusting. Yup, that was it. The "blue" variable cap is very tight and, requiring a screwdriver to adjust, very difficult to adjust in place. What I interpreted to be its stop point was, in fact, not. A little extra push and color appears. Next problem, with the addition of color, the image has some significant "ghosting". Any suggestions on fixing? Thanks, Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 3:18 PM From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:41:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:41:52 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > I can't believe there's still a NOS 11/750 out there, but it'll be a > > sweet acquisition for someone. > > You can not assume it is NOS. It could have been working in a coal > mine for years, by the previous owner, not the current one. That's always a possibility, but what I read was that the previous owner bought it as a spare. I'm only going on the OPs claims. Of course, I can't substantiate it. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:42:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:42:25 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200709072037.24575.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> <200709072037.24575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Hey, at least you can put UNIBUS cards in the CPU box, unlike the > 11/780, which requires another rack for that. With a UNIBUS SCSI disk > controller, and a little bit of clever placement, you could fit an > entire system for an 11/750 into just the CPU rack. :) Including a 5.25" or 3.5" disk. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:44:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:44:31 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Sep 2007 at 20:14, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. > > That's just the CPU--if there is a complete installation with extra > cabinets for disk/tape drives (not atypical), it could get to be a > bit bigger :). A typical installation did have more than the CPU cabinet (the one I ran for a decade had the CPU plus an H960 plus a TU-80 cab), but in this era, you can throw enough cards to be useful (disk, ethernet, serial, printer...) in the internal DD-11DK _plus_ a smallish disk right in the CPU cab. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:45:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:45:53 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 07:03 PM 9/7/2007, Richard wrote: > >Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? > > I think so. The back of the VUE has 37 inches between the wheel well > humps in the back; as long as you fold the rear seats down it should > fit OK. ("Should" as I don't know the height, but don't think it's much > more than a yard tall. It should be closer to 42" tall, but less than a yard wide or long... perhaps on its side? -ethan From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Sep 7 22:07:32 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:07:32 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I'm looking for a few people to connect to a small 'server' I am running > to help me test my TCP/IP for DOS. It can be reached at: > > telnet 24.159.200.228 2023 > > Hi everybody ... not sure if this got missed or not, but it has been really really slow. A grand total of 20 connects, and no more than 4 of them at the same time. I'd appreciate it if some more of you took a whack at it .. I'm on session 0 if anybody wants to try the crude chat feature. Once again, all of this is to stress test my TCP/IP code under normal/realistic conditions. Thanks, Mike From djg at pdp8.net Fri Sep 7 21:04:49 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 22:04:49 -0400 Subject: Strange ADVENT error messages (OS/8) Message-ID: <200709080204.l8824n516881@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >This disk image works perfectly (including ADVENT) on my laptop >running SIMH. > The way advent is saved it is dependant on exact conditions when it is saved. If hardware is changed or files are moved it will not work. If you follow the instructions in advent.dc you can resave it. For reference http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/os8_html/ADVENT.DC?act=file;fn=images/os8/diag-games-kermit.rk05;blk=2243,9,1;to=auto An updated version is at http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 21:18:05 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 22:18:05 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 9:44 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. >> >> That's just the CPU--if there is a complete installation with extra >> cabinets for disk/tape drives (not atypical), it could get to be a >> bit bigger :). > > A typical installation did have more than the CPU cabinet (the one I > ran for a decade had the CPU plus an H960 plus a TU-80 cab), The 11/750 one I adminned from 1991-1993 consisted of the CPU cabinet, a TU80 cabinet with an RA60 in the bottom, and two CDC 9762 drives (CDC-labeled, not RM02s) connected via an Emulex controller. > but in > this era, you can throw enough cards to be useful (disk, ethernet, > serial, printer...) in the internal DD-11DK _plus_ a smallish disk > right in the CPU cab. That sure would be nice! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 22:11:39 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:11:39 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 September 2007 14:44, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:22, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I think older calculators actually do a better job > > > than many modern calculators. > > > > Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto radios--while a > > passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would tune to a > > certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't know--I haven't > > figured out how to work the thing yet". > > > > I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for volume, the other for > > tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. Pull to set, push > > to switch. > > Agreed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people (people here, especially) > will agree that user interfaces on devices of all kinds has gone downhill. Indeed. Seems to me I remember Ted Nelson talking about this very issue, way back in 1974! > Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls are a thing of the past. > Everything now needs to be an aesthetic design element. Cars, calculators, > hi-fi equipment, it's all turned to this mess. Worse yet, in those cases where the user interface is entirely done in software ("skins") it's difficult to find something without all that crap and that gives a basic user interface! > I wonder just what happened. All-encompassing function knobs, menus > for Bass and Treble, confusing symbols, unlabeled indicator lamps - it's a > mess. Gone is the simplicity of a switch labeled "HEADLIGHTS", replaced with > a confusing array of symbols on a knob. I am getting SO tired of symbols on stuff -- just tell me WTF that does! > While they were at it, designers decided that it would be a good idea for > power indicators to light up when something is off, and go out when it's on. > Or how about a stereo with an animated "attract mode" when off? Ick. > I could go on and on, but I'm sure everyone gets the point. There was a time > when you could walk up to any radio/hi-fi/television/car and instantly be > able to operate it. Not anymore. But - remember - all these craptacular > interfaces are cheaper to build, think of that. Yay. Indeed they are. And things like quality switches and pots are getting ever harder to find. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 22:26:24 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:26:24 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709072326.24665.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 September 2007 18:50, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Hi, > > I have a Dazzler board set that _almost_ works. > Gray scale looks good and color looks OK, except > that it's gray too. The shades of gray change > when I flip the color bit at I/O address 0x0F and > the red and green pots and the blue variable cap > change the display when in color mode. The monitor > I'm using is tested good with a color CCTV camera > I have lying around. The geometry changes as > expected with bit changes at 0x0F and the "dots" > change as expected when the memory at the address > assigned at 0x0E is modified. My guess is that > something is wrong in the color burst (is that the > right name?) circuit? Or is it possible that there > is something different about the signal that a newer > (manufactured Jan. 1993) color monitor wouldn't like? > Unfortunately, the scan of the Dazzler manual on the > Harte Technologies web site is not at a high enough > resolution for the schematics to be read in detail. > A better scan of the schematics would be greatly > appreciated as would any other help, video signal > generation is not my strong suit. Got a scope? That's the best way to look at the output signal, and work your way back into it until you find out why there's no colorburst in there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 22:33:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:33:21 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709072333.21620.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 September 2007 20:49, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > To me it does sound like the color burst frequency is off. > > Maybe there's > > a trimmer cap somewhere that needs adjusting. > > Yup, that was it. The "blue" variable cap is very tight and, > requiring a screwdriver to adjust, very difficult to adjust in place. > What I interpreted to be its stop point was, in fact, not. A little > extra push and color appears. Next problem, with the addition > of color, the image has some significant "ghosting". Any > suggestions on fixing? Cables, connections, maybe a bad ground somewhere? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 22:49:03 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:49:03 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <200709072349.03888.rtellason@verizon.net> So I was poking around at bitsavers after snagging those TI databooks, and stumbled across some files pertaining to TurboDOS. I'd read about that before, might even have some manual or other on it someplace, but I've never had the pleasure. I do have one box that was supposed to be a multi-user system, that being my TeleVideo 816, which had TurboDOS as an option but the one I have came with something called MMMOST, which I wasn't all that impressed with. A guy was talking about sending me a tape but that never happened. I remember hearing about one or two other packages that were similar (never mind MP/M, which I've also not messed with and don't get the impression I want to bother with really), but have never had the pleasure of running any of them. A while back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a box" systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I think that's the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it. Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going there (RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their "network" out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case is none. I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more cards, and somehow or other make it work. And speaking of the networking aspect of it, do any of you guys know how they did it? I recall one time getting a glimpse of some system or other that was S-100 but also had a set of connectors at thet op of each card, which is what they used for their inter-processor linking rather than trying to push it through the bus. The reason for this is not apparent to me. I've also seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was supposed to work through serial ports, which pretty many machines had, althogh they appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to wire-OR RS232 signals, which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. And what software support there was for this wasn't real apparent. I dunno, I've just got this fascination for assorted 8-bit parts talking to each other through some smallish number of wires, I guess it's easier to deal with than some of the big iron you guys handle regularly, which I can't afford to go get never mind housing. And I've seen multiple processors used in stuff already, as in some musical equipment that passed "event information" from one chip to the next with only a couple of pins, or the daisywheel printer that had _four_ 804x procesors in it for different functions. TurboDOS is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's too much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software, stuff I'd leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same old Console / Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to something different or unique. I found the same thing to be the case when I looked at FORTH, too much of the usual stuff, and that was supposed to have been used in some control applications? I must've missed something there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Sep 8 00:19:42 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:19:42 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> Message-ID: <46E230EE.4020200@hawkmountain.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or >>> two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming >>> on a >>> Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations >>> for a >>> development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm >>> flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE >>> (so >>> I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the >>> development itself on a IIfx. >>> >>> In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of >>> sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying >>> around >>> (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one >>> digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk >>> network to >>> keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be >>> a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some >>> otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). >>> >> >> That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. >> >> I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the >> story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various >> elderly Macs... >> >> http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html >> >> > Thanks for the vote of support :). I think most of the code should be > dead simple but I'm not sure how the time-sync networking portion's > going to go. I also need to pick up some serial Appletalk cabling; > the SEs and the SE/30s have ethernet cards, but the Classics are > unexpandable and thus do not. Maybe I can just find some more SEs to > use :). time sync ? only one needs to tell time :-) ... the rest just need to display the remainder of the digits... Either use messages over the appletalk of what to display... or treat each computer 'up' the chain like a dumb mechanical counter.... call the boxes H1, H2, M1, M2, S1, S2.... S2 tells the time... when it rolls over to zero it sends a 'tick' to S1... S1 knows its 'position', so when it rolls over from 5 to 0, it sends a tick to M2.... and up the 'ticking' goes. Either way would be 'fun' :-) -- Curt > > I hope to get most of the work done this weekend, assuming nothing > interrupts me... ha ha ha. > > And I have a copy of the original Mac Dali clock on one of my macs... > somewhere :). > > - Josh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 8 00:23:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:23:17 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E231C5.3080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Indeed they are. And things like quality switches and pots are getting ever > harder to find. Forget quality , how about just replacement parts. Well it is the allmighty $ that is giving us NO-Cost No-quality parts. Take for example my DVD/CD player $ 1,200.00 Canadian for 'elite' quality.About $30 for a DVD/CD player at Wall-mart. Hopefully you get what you pay-for and I get a few years out of my DVD-player before they introduce a MUST have new non-standard standard in Audio or Video Playback. Ben alias Woodelf PS. Pioneer DV-AVi-S Elite From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 8 01:09:29 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Nova 4 needs a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, David Griffith wrote: > I am helping to liquidate a collection of stuff belonging to a guy near > Pasadena California. Among the items is a Data General Nova 4 and related > peripherals. It includes the Nova 4 itself, a 25 megabyte hard drive, > magtape drive, paper tape (I think), and assorted other fiddly bits. The > whole thing is in a 6-foot-tall rack, so you'll need to pick it up > yourself and get a couple friends to help. It also includes a decent > amount of documentation and paper-tape software. > > This fellow got caught in the recent storm of mortgage forclosures and > needs to clean out all the stuff he's not keeping (which is most of it) by > the end of September: this month. So, this thing needs to go NOW. No > reasonable offer refused. > > If you're interested, please email me at the below address or my yahoo > address (cupricus) if that doesn't work for you. Here's an update. It doesn't have a paper tape reader, but it does have an 8-inch floppy drive and lots of serial ports. The Nova needs to be gone by the 24th of this month at the absolute latest -- preferable sooner. Pictures can be seen at http://frotz.homeunix.org/tmp/nova/. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Sep 8 01:39:35 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:39:35 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46E243A7.3080602@msm.umr.edu> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > > Once again, all of this is to stress test my TCP/IP code under > normal/realistic conditions. Hi mike. I don't have a solaris system up, but maybe someone has a spray command ported elsewhere. I recall it on sunos or solaris and it would generate quite a bit of traffic for you if we fired at your connection. Jim From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 05:27:30 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 03:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Nova 4 needs a new home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <288920.96310.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Here's an update. It doesn't have a paper tape > reader, but it does have > an 8-inch floppy drive and lots of serial ports. > The Nova needs to be > gone by the 24th of this month at the absolute > latest -- preferable > sooner. Pictures can be seen at > http://frotz.homeunix.org/tmp/nova/. I really, really, really wish I were close enough. Why is all the good stuff on the other side of the country! Someone buy this beautiful machine! -Ian From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Sep 8 08:39:19 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 07:39:19 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E243A7.3080602@msm.umr.edu> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> <46E243A7.3080602@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46E2A607.2@brutman.com> jim wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Once again, all of this is to stress test my TCP/IP code under >> normal/realistic conditions. > > Hi mike. > > I don't have a solaris system up, but maybe someone has a spray command > ported elsewhere. I recall it on sunos or solaris and it would generate > quite a bit of traffic for you if we fired at your connection. > > Jim > > I don't know if the DOS box is ready to handle a DOS attack just yet. ;-) I have thought about doing some sort of scripting on a Unix box to simulate sessions; a few hours of that would probably be a good exercise. But I like asking the list for help because besides getting a variety of machines from across the net, some of you use the sysop page function to say hello. :-) Current stats: stats Server started: Fri Sep 07 13:54:57 2007 Session start: Fri Sep 07 13:55:17 2007 Current time: Sat Sep 08 07:29:04 2007 Active sessions 4, Max Active sessions 4, Total Sessions: 41 Tcp Pkts Sent 2682 Rcvd 2726 Retrans 23 Seq/Ack errs 4 Dropped 0 Pkt stats: Incoming pkts: 3537 Dropped: 0 Sent: 2821 Mike From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 8 08:16:25 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:16:25 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20070908131626.0B6C5BA456B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. I find myself firing it up a few times a year to try building a crufty old DECUS program that I recovered. But really I haven't found a big stash of DECUS stuff since you got me some of the Canadian collections a decade ago. Just don't have any patience or time for computers in general these days! Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 8 08:24:23 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:24:23 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070908132423.CED4ABA456B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > Worse yet, in those cases where the user interface is entirely done in > software ("skins") it's difficult to find something without all that crap and > that gives a basic user interface! Some of the very-low end consumer equipment (e.g. grocery store $20 VCR's and DVD players) actually put a few truly functional buttons ("play", "stop") that can be used without any menu interaction at all. Of course on a consumer DVD it is likely to disable the buttons when the DVD content says the button must be disabled, but that's not the UI's fault, that's the DVD licensing. Get much above the bargain-basement stuff (like $30!) and you're into not creeping but exploding featuritis territory. Tim. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 08:47:00 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 14:47:00 +0100 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> References: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <11c909eb0709080647r4d2a08a8v2d9d45af8c2d9c79@mail.gmail.com> On 08/09/2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Check out the UPS backups, APC has a line which I'm certain has a power > monitoring log so you can see when the voltage sags or spikes and > records power outages. > > Use a UPS so your logs are maintained. There's some neat open source software called NUT which will do line quality logging if the UPS supports it. Big list of supported devices too. http://www.networkupstools.org/ -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 8 09:19:32 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 07:19:32 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:30:19 -0600> From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> To: > Subject: Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?> > Bernd Kopriva wrote:> > > Ahhh,> > i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ...> > ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :(> > That was the only Z8000 project I knew of. I wonder if it was> do to the fact the Z8000 could of had lots of hardware bugs nobody> could use it.> > Ciao Bernd Hi I have an Olivetti M20 and it uses the Z8000. It doesn't seem to have any bugs. It works just fine. It just isn't a 8086. In some ways the Z8000 was much better than the 8086 but it just never caught on. Olivetti sold thousands of M20's and a few larger machines as well using the Z8000. A lot of embedded machines use Z8000's as well. To my knowledge, there were no specific bug problems related to the Z8000. The M20 was designed in Cupertino,Ca. M20's are rare here in the US but still relatively common in Italy and Germany. A check of the Italian ebay shows about 3 or 4 a year. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Can you find the hidden words?? Take a break and play Seekadoo! http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 8 09:36:16 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 07:36:16 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:07:40 -0700> Subject: Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?> > On 7 Sep 2007 at 9:58, Bernd Kopriva wrote:> > > Steve Ciarcia's Trump Card (Z-8001)> > >From the article at http://www.dtweed.com/circuitcellar/trumpcrd.pdf> > It seems that the big advantage cited by Ciarcia was the ability to > run a compile-in-place languge called TBASIC to gain performance. > Given the prices on his cards, it hardly seems like a bargain.> > If one wanted to goof around with the Z8000 family as a coprocessor > card, I'd be sore tempted to wire up something with a Z8002 and 64K > of SRAM. You get the instructions without the expense and you don't > have to deal with the (awful) Z8000 segmented mode. And relatively > easy to do a lashup. Instead of Ciarcia's bucket, you could probably > do with a single Z8036. Fit the whole thing on a "short" card. Hi You can still use a Z8001 because it boots to non-segmented mode and looks like a Z8002. The trick is to find the memory management chip and add it to the Z8001. One can still use the Z8001 without this and treat it as a Z8002. You can just ignore the segments. Still, if you want to get the CP/M8000 running, you'll need to embrace segmented code. Once you are running segmented code, the only reason you need to worry about it is that you can't run continuous code or data for more than 64K. The main disadvantage of running segemented is that many instructions take more code space. One can still switch back and forth between segmented code and non-segmented. This saves a lot of code space. If one does their memory decoding correctly, one can have 64K code and 64K data space in either segmented or non-segmented modes. ( the M20 does this for part of the memory map ). > > IMOHO, only Motorola and NS of all of the "16 bit" chip producers > ever understood the importance of a continuous non-segmented memory > space. Given the time of introduction, I consider the 68K to be a > marvel of MPU design. Too bad IBM didn't adopt it for the PC. That is true, it mades the 68K look real good for it's time. Still, it had a memory limit, just bigger than 64K. Dwight > > Cheers,> Chuck> > > _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf?. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 11:18:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: oi nice Message-ID: <10021.76065.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sharp-x68000-XVI-Clean-Tested- Beautiful-Japan-Import_W0QQitemZ300146680786QQihZ020QQ categoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 11:31:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's this? Message-ID: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-HARRIS-DISKRITER-COMPUTER- PARTS-REPAIR_W0QQitemZ170147139531QQihZ007QQ categoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and notice the 2 mangy mutts at the head of the bed. Yup, I sure want to lay my face exactly where they left their fleas, and worse (if you can imagine that). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sat Sep 8 11:34:52 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:34:52 -0600 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <200709072136.l87LaP5i070053@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709072136.l87LaP5i070053@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46E2CF2C.4050803@rogerwilco.org> Jerome H. Fine said: > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. I'll pipe up here and confess I never professionally worked with RT-11, or any other DEC OS, for that matter, except for a very, very short 2-month stint with RSTS/E. And all I really was doing was making some small adjustments to DIBOL-coded accounting software for a customer. Then my world shifted, and I was sucked into the world of networking PC's (Novell) where I spent the better part of my career. Anyway, I *am* using RT-11 to image my collection of floppies (some of which probably belong on Tim Shoppa's site; TOPS-20 related stuff, looks like). Other than that, I'm basically a complete DEC newbie, and am just starting to dip into MACRO-11 on RT-11. Part of a pickup included a college textbook focused entirely on RT-11 MACRO-11, so I'm having some fun! :-) As for Ethan's interest in a Z-machine, I'll second that! But I don't even know where to start! - Jared PS. Thanks, again, to all that assisted the reviving of my PDP-11/03! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 11:35:22 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: groovy Message-ID: <773604.86637.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Ampro-series-100-industrial-computer_ W0QQitemZ200149653632QQihZ010QQ categoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 12:09:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:09:02 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46E274BE.2934.2982D2C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2007 at 7:36, dwight elvey wrote: > You can still use a Z8001 because it boots to non-segmented mode > and looks like a Z8002. The trick is to find the memory management > chip and add it to the Z8001. One can still use the Z8001 without > this and treat it as a Z8002. You can just ignore the segments. > Still, if you want to get the CP/M8000 running, you'll need to > embrace segmented code. I understand--and if Ciarcia had offered a full-blown OS for his card, it might be worth exploring Z8001 segmented mode. The M20 and even the Onyx Z8000 Unix box that I used once upon a time would be worthwhile examples. But just to run a compile-in-place BASIC? The Z8000 wasn't a bad chip; it just didn't have anything going for it that was particularly exciting. But then, neither did the 8086-- but for the massive presence and production capabilities of Intel. To be fair, there were Z80-to-Z8000 translation tools, so one could ostensibly port an existing application. I've got the manual for one called TRANZ from AMC. I recall talking with the design guys from NS about the (then) 16032 and was blown away by the ambitious design. Had they been able to offer silicon in 1981, we would have signed with them. But it was always "Real Soon Now". From what I heard from friends who had attempted to use the first silicon, it was an experience that I was better for having missed. And then there was National's typical noncommitment to supporting any given design (IMP-16, SC/MP, PACE, 8080, 8086...) given the way the wind was blowing at any time. Apparently the NS32xxx series had better success overseas than it did domestically, where I'm sure there were plenty of frustrated people who gave up waiting on the "Real Soon Now". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 12:20:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:20:05 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2007 at 9:31, Chris M wrote: eBay item 170147139531 Looks like a Harris Lanier box from the 80's, though I'm not familiar with the "Diskriter" model. Word processing, not terribly exciting and probably takes HS diskettes. Chris, please just post the item number for these things or use TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay links wrap several lines in my email reader and require me to dig the number out manually. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 12:28:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 13:28:57 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46E2DBD9.3010900@gmail.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. I use it, but nowadays, mostly for fun. I used to use it in robotics data acquisition. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 8 12:24:32 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 18:24:32 +0100 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E2DAD0.9060407@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Chris, please just post the item number for these things or use > TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay links wrap > several lines in my email reader and require me to dig the number out > manually. ... and where possible say in the message what the item is (sounds like that wasn't possible in this case!) rather than just posting a "look at this" link. I rarely waste the CPU cycles to fire up a browser unless I have some idea of what I'm going to be looking at! p.s. I think most modern-ish apps will make sense of URLs between <> characters and not wrap them across multiple lines; I think it is some standard or other, but there's no guarantee that *everything* from the last ten years will handle it :-) cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 8 12:36:44 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:36:44 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 10:20 AM -0700 9/8/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 8 Sep 2007 at 9:31, Chris M wrote: > >eBay item 170147139531 > >Looks like a Harris Lanier box from the 80's, though I'm not familiar >with the "Diskriter" model. Word processing, not terribly exciting >and probably takes HS diskettes. Did they run MUSE? I must confess to having a fondness for MUSE. It probably doesn't hurt that initially the only alternative to the Harris Mini was a Xerox 860 that I was only allowed near for editing one manual, or an IBM Selectric. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 12:44:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:44:44 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E2DAD0.9060407@yahoo.co.uk> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E2DAD0.9060407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46E27D1C.14296.29A3840B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2007 at 18:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > p.s. I think most modern-ish apps will make sense of URLs between <> > characters and not wrap them across multiple lines; I think it is some > standard or other, but there's no guarantee that *everything* from the last > ten years will handle it :-) Maybe, but I read all of my email in plaintext (not HTML) only. I use Pegasus for my reader, which isn't all that old (Version 4.41, July, 2006)--and the eBay URLs don't carry over as links from one line to the next. If it's longer than about 72 characters, forget it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 13:01:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:01:20 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46E28100.3100.29B2B5A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2007 at 10:36, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Did they run MUSE? I must confess to having a fondness for MUSE. It > probably doesn't hurt that initially the only alternative to the > Harris Mini was a Xerox 860 that I was only allowed near for editing > one manual, or an IBM Selectric. I thought that the Lanier WaPro was something called "OneStep" or the like. Wasn't MUSE an emacs addon? A shame that no one collects the old word processing systems; some of them were quite remarkable in design. Star and Cat seems to be about as far as people want to go. Cheers, Chuck From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Sat Sep 8 13:23:54 2007 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:23:54 +0200 Subject: IBM 3270 ANR coax protocol. Message-ID: Hi, Can anyone help me with detailed information of the IBM ANR coax protocol used between IBM 3271/72 and IBM 3277 terminals ? 'ANR' stands for Alpha Numeric Replacement. This is what I know sofar of the ANR protocol: - transmission was done with words of 13 bits. - one bit time was 7 x 210nS = 1.47 uS (Not sure about the 7 x) - a logical ZERO was defined as an negative pulse of 210 nS. a logical ONE was defined as an negative pulse of 630 nS. (3 x 210 nS) - the 13 bits where used as follows: bit 1 - start bit (Busy bit) bit 2,3,4 - control bits bit 5 - 11 data bits bit 12 - odd parity over bits 2-11 bit 13 - buffer size (480 / 1920 bits) Transmission started with a dummy word with all 13 bits zero. I assume this was needed to establish word synchronisation. Followed by a WRITE CW1 and 480/1920 words. The 480/1920 words can be of any mix of attribute / data words. Currently I am building an async RS232 to ANR convertor and having difficulties in transfering data to an original IBM 3277 model 1 terminal. The problem is most likely timing. Does any one have an answer on the following question: Q1: the exact bit time ? Q2: exact pulse duration of logical ZERO and ONE ? Q3: time between words (if any). Q4: how was serial synchronisation maintained ? Any piece of information of this ANR protocol is welcome. Thanks ! Henk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 13:44:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Sep 2007 at 9:31, Chris M wrote: > > eBay item 170147139531 > > Looks like a Harris Lanier box from the 80's, though > I'm not familiar > with the "Diskriter" model. Word processing, not > terribly exciting > and probably takes HS diskettes. > > Chris, please just post the item number for these > things or use > TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay > links wrap > several lines in my email reader and require me to > dig the number out > manually. I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on this list (muahahahahahahaha). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 13:45:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E2DAD0.9060407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <412339.28186.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Chris, please just post the item number for these > things or use > > TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned > eBay links wrap > > several lines in my email reader and require me to > dig the number out > > manually. > > ... and where possible say in the message what the > item is (sounds like that > wasn't possible in this case!) rather than just > posting a "look at this" link. > I rarely waste the CPU cycles to fire up a browser > unless I have some idea of > what I'm going to be looking at! > > p.s. I think most modern-ish apps will make sense of > URLs between <> > characters and not wrap them across multiple lines; > I think it is some > standard or other, but there's no guarantee that > *everything* from the last > ten years will handle it :-) Goofy yahoo even has a new feature (creature) whereby a balloon opens up if you hover over a url. I can understand why the goofy thing doesn't recognize such a url. Goofy ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 13:49:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E27D1C.14296.29A3840B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <777477.26297.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe, but I read all of my email in plaintext (not > HTML) only. Schmott. Velly velly schmott ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 8 13:52:11 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 13:52:11 -0500 Subject: what's this? References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02cd01c7f249$5dc0f690$6400a8c0@BILLING> ***TRIM YOUR REPLIES*** From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Sep 8 14:48:51 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:48:51 +0100 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709081248v2413c1c6k1f9a01dc413da7c3@mail.gmail.com> On 08/09/2007, Chris M wrote: > > I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny > thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. > Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on > this list (muahahahahahahaha). > > Just quote the item number.. Or if you really want to post a URL, http://search.ebay.co.uk/nnnnnnnnnn works nicely where nnn..etc is the item number. (And you can even use the .com ..) Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 8 16:02:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:02:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA123 power supply signal question In-Reply-To: <278854.92368.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Sep 7, 7 04:46:46 pm Message-ID: > > On a BA123 power supply, each regulator has three > non-power pins - LTC, POK and DCOK. Am I correct to > assume these are TTL level outputs? What is the I'm pretty sure they're open-collector outputs. They can be pulled low by the PSU, but are pulled high by a resistor on the bus terminator (maybe the CPU in Q-bus systems?) > computer expecting to get from these three lines if > everything is OK? POK = Power OK, and is pulled low by the PSU if the AC input to the regulator fails DCOK is pulled low if the DC output of the regulator is too low. In normal operation, both these signals are high LTC = Line Time Clock, and is a regular square wave. What I can't remember is if the frequency is the same as mains (50/60Hz) or twice it (100/120Hz). -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 8 17:45:41 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 15:45:41 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E28100.3100.29B2B5A9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E28100.3100.29B2B5A9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0700 9/8/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I thought that the Lanier WaPro was something called "OneStep" or the >like. Wasn't MUSE an emacs addon? I'm pretty sure that the version of MUSE I used wasn't an emacs addon, it was a screen editor, and you went forward or back one screen at a time, and couldn't scroll beyond one is on the screen one line at a time like on pretty much any other system I've ever used. Still it was very nice, and it was what really got my typing speed and accuracy up. Not to mention the Harris Mini I used it on probably couldn't have handled any version of emacs! :^) >A shame that no one collects the old word processing systems; some of >them were quite remarkable in design. Star and Cat seems to be about >as far as people want to go. I'm pretty sure that some people have Xerox 860's in their collections. I do have a Tandy kind of like the M100 that was basically only for writing. For some insane reason I picked it up in the early 90's when it was being phased out, and it proved to hard to get text on and off of it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 8 21:16:23 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200709090216.WAA15689@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> telnet 24.159.200.228 2023 > I'd appreciate it if some more of you took a whack at it .. Well, when I tried just now, each SYN packet elicited a "host unreachable" ICMP about three seconds later: 22:13:46.280313 206.248.151.73.65358 > 24.159.200.228.2023: S 3271716993:3271716993(0) win 16384 (DF) 22:13:49.354198 24.159.200.228 > 206.248.151.73: icmp: host 24.159.200.228 unreachable 22:13:51.925999 206.248.151.73.65358 > 24.159.200.228.2023: S 3271716993:3271716993(0) win 16384 (DF) 22:13:55.008518 24.159.200.228 > 206.248.151.73: icmp: host 24.159.200.228 unreachable 22:14:03.926831 206.248.151.73.65358 > 24.159.200.228.2023: S 3271716993:3271716993(0) win 16384 (DF) 22:14:06.985624 24.159.200.228 > 206.248.151.73: icmp: host 24.159.200.228 unreachable 22:14:27.928751 206.248.151.73.65358 > 24.159.200.228.2023: S 3271716993:3271716993(0) win 16384 (DF) 22:14:30.986354 24.159.200.228 > 206.248.151.73: icmp: host 24.159.200.228 unreachable /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Sep 8 22:27:27 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 21:27:27 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46E3681F.9000007@brutman.com> Testing is done. Thanks to all of you who connected and helped me exercise it. Nothing particularly interesting came up. There was one person who managed to get their sockets 'wedged' in FIN_WAIT2 state, which I thought was interesting - I think it was caused by the other machine not acking my FIN packets. Thanks again, Mike From davis at saw.net Sat Sep 8 21:53:52 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 19:53:52 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E3681F.9000007@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> <46E3681F.9000007@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46E36040.6040606@saw.net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Testing is done. Thanks to all of you who connected and helped me > exercise it. > > Nothing particularly interesting came up. There was one person who > managed to get their sockets 'wedged' in FIN_WAIT2 state, which I > thought was interesting - I think it was caused by the other machine > not acking my FIN packets. > > > Thanks again, > Mike > > > > A FIN_WAIT2 is a classic DOS attack method. Heh heh. Jim Davis. From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 22:36:59 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:36:59 -0500 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> I hope to have it running on an 11/05 and a 11/34 late this year' Paul On 9/7/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. > > For myself, I have the addiction of fixing RT-11 bugs > in the operating system as well as making enhancements. > Ten years ago, I even produced most of the Y2K changes > that were required for V05.04G of RT-11 for a customer > who could not wait for Mentec. Eventually, I want to > produce a set of Y9K changes to allow years up to 9999 > to be used. > > Other enhancements include SL: and a new pseudo device > driver, SB: (SymBolic device list device driver) which > is similar to the VMS SNL (Symbolic Name List), but > operates only on a device which supports a directory > as does PATH for DOS. At one point it was named PH: > for Path Handler, but SB: seems a better choice. Even > more reasonable would be Symbolic device List or SL:, but > SL: is already used by the Single Line editor (or the DOSKEY > interface). Symbolic Debugger is also taken for SD: > > Lately, I mostly use Ersatz-11 and I have been making > changes and enhancements to the HD: (Hypothetical Disk) > device driver that John Wilson originally wrote in 1995. > The challenge I set myself was to produce a VM(X).SYS > equivalent that is: > (a) Faster - about 3 times as fast > (b) Higher capacity - a full 65536 blocks vs 8192 blocks > (c) Smaller number of LOADed words in low memory > (d) Support the command SET VM: [NO]WRITE > plus a number of other useful features. > > Well, one idea led to another and other versions are also > being tested which support 8 units and eventually 64 units > (with monitors that have that support as well). If there is > any interest, eventually a translation table similar to the > one used by DU(X).SYS is possible. In addition, full 32 bit > block number support will be done eventually which will > allow 2 TeraByte disk drives. > > The other HD: related code that is also interesting is the > ability to interface the HD: device directly from user code > WITHOUT a device driver. So while the HD: is about twice > as fast as DU(X).SYS when a device driver HD(X).SYS is used, > the direct user interface (which avoids all the overhead of > a system EMT call) is about twice as fast again. For this > user interface, 32 bit blocks numbers are already possible. > > Under a Windows (YEK !! Double YEK) operating system or even > just DOS, all disk access is completed before the HD: returns > control to the RT-11 operating system. Consequently, no > interrupts are required. I am not sure about Linux operation, > but if anyone does know, please advise. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 22:52:30 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:52:30 -0500 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0709080647r4d2a08a8v2d9d45af8c2d9c79@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> <11c909eb0709080647r4d2a08a8v2d9d45af8c2d9c79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <624966d60709082052r572453d6w579eabedb1495c47@mail.gmail.com> I might have a Dranetz around here that I would be willing to ship stateside (loan), but won't be able to find it for a while. When you need one, I'm not sure what else will work. I run part of my house for over 3 years now on an APC UPS, using 4000AH of 48DVDC that are charged with solar panels(PV). Most of the time I don't even know when the power goes out. Paul On 9/8/07, Pete Edwards wrote: > > On 08/09/2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > > Check out the UPS backups, APC has a line which I'm certain has a power > > monitoring log so you can see when the voltage sags or spikes and > > records power outages. > > > > > Use a UPS so your logs are maintained. There's some neat open source > software called NUT which will do line quality logging if the UPS supports > it. Big list of supported devices too. http://www.networkupstools.org/ > > -- > Pete Edwards > "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - > Niels > Bohr > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 8 23:45:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 22:45:49 -0600 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <624966d60709082052r572453d6w579eabedb1495c47@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> <11c909eb0709080647r4d2a08a8v2d9d45af8c2d9c79@mail.gmail.com> <624966d60709082052r572453d6w579eabedb1495c47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E37A7D.9050709@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Anderson wrote: > I run part of my house for over 3 years now on an APC UPS, using 4000AH of > 48DVDC that are charged with solar panels(PV). Most of the time I don't even > know when the power goes out. Umm when it is dark outside. :) > Paul Sorry but I could not resist. Ben alias woodelf From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 8 23:45:14 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 21:45:14 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E274BE.2934.2982D2C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E274BE.2934.2982D2C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> > On 8 Sep 2007 at 7:36, dwight elvey wrote:> > > You can still use a Z8001 because it boots to non-segmented mode> > and looks like a Z8002. The trick is to find the memory management> > chip and add it to the Z8001. One can still use the Z8001 without> > this and treat it as a Z8002. You can just ignore the segments.> > Still, if you want to get the CP/M8000 running, you'll need to> > embrace segmented code.> > I understand--and if Ciarcia had offered a full-blown OS for his > card, it might be worth exploring Z8001 segmented mode. The M20 and > even the Onyx Z8000 Unix box that I used once upon a time would be > worthwhile examples. But just to run a compile-in-place BASIC? > > The Z8000 wasn't a bad chip; it just didn't have anything going for > it that was particularly exciting. But then, neither did the 8086--> but for the massive presence and production capabilities of Intel. > To be fair, there were Z80-to-Z8000 translation tools, so one could > ostensibly port an existing application. I've got the manual for one > called TRANZ from AMC. Hi Chuck I had a chance to ask Faggin why he did finish the math coprocessor for the Z8000's. He stated that the handwriting was quite clear. The 8086 would soon dominate. I wasn't worth the effort to get the math coprocessor working. Other than the addressing, the Z8000 had a nice register arangement. It was much closer to a RISC than the 8086 ever was. > > I recall talking with the design guys from NS about the (then) 16032 > and was blown away by the ambitious design. Had they been able to > offer silicon in 1981, we would have signed with them. But it was > always "Real Soon Now". From what I heard from friends who had > attempted to use the first silicon, it was an experience that I was > better for having missed. And then there was National's typical > noncommitment to supporting any given design (IMP-16, SC/MP, PACE, > 8080, 8086...) given the way the wind was blowing at any time. > Apparently the NS32xxx series had better success overseas than it did > domestically, where I'm sure there were plenty of frustrated people > who gave up waiting on the "Real Soon Now". I still have a couple of NA2000 series boards. This was another National start and drop. These has the 800 processor as dies on a PC board with other components. One could stack the units as well. Some came with an early version of Forth in ROM as well. I had a power unit as well but I'll have to spend some serious time working on it because of the NiCad leaking. Dwight > > Cheers,> Chuck> _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf?. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sun Sep 9 09:12:56 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 09:12:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for some RL02 packs Message-ID: Now that I have two functioning systems (PDP-8/A running OS/8, PDP-11/23+ with RT-11XM) that have two RL02 drives each, I'm short of disk packs. I'm looking for three or four. Please let me know if you have any, and how much you want for them. I'd much prefer disks with no bad blocks at all (but at least none in the first 64 locations, or they won't be useable for OS/8). My zip is 65775 for shipping calculations... thanks Charles From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 10:04:30 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 16:04:30 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> <46E274BE.2934.2982D2C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709090804u63ce8580v35fbeba56f06f299@mail.gmail.com> Er. I found this difficult to follow... On 09/09/2007, dwight elvey wrote: > I had a chance to ask Faggin why he did finish the math coprocessor You mean, "didn't"? > for the Z8000's. He stated that the handwriting was quite clear. (Z8000s. No apostrophes on plurals. Not even on numbers. None, ever.) > The 8086 would soon dominate. I wasn't worth the effort to get the "It wasn't"? > math coprocessor working. > Other than the addressing, the Z8000 had a nice register arangement. ("arrangement") > It was much closer to a RISC than the 8086 ever was. > I still have a couple of NA2000 series boards. This was another National > start and drop. > These has the 800 processor as dies on a PC board with other components. ("These have".) I don't meant to nitpick - the corrections in parentheses did not impede my comprehension. The ones outside them, though, *did*. I suggest taking just a few more seconds over a post? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 10:09:34 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 16:09:34 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> On 08/09/2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 07 September 2007 14:44, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:22, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > I think older calculators actually do a better job > > > > than many modern calculators. > > > > > > Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto radios--while a > > > passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would tune to a > > > certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't know--I haven't > > > figured out how to work the thing yet". > > > > > > I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for volume, the other for > > > tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. Pull to set, push > > > to switch. > > > > Agreed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people (people here, especially) > > will agree that user interfaces on devices of all kinds has gone downhill. I think that for computers, the peak was in the early to mid-1990s, when programmers got creative with buttons and toolbars and things but the marketdroids had not yet got to it and made them festoon everything with unnecessary options. > > Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls are a thing of the past. > > Everything now needs to be an aesthetic design element. Cars, calculators, > > hi-fi equipment, it's all turned to this mess. > > Worse yet, in those cases where the user interface is entirely done in > software ("skins") it's difficult to find something without all that crap and > that gives a basic user interface! > > > I wonder just what happened. All-encompassing function knobs, menus > > for Bass and Treble, confusing symbols, unlabeled indicator lamps - it's a > > mess. Gone is the simplicity of a switch labeled "HEADLIGHTS", replaced with > > a confusing array of symbols on a knob. > > I am getting SO tired of symbols on stuff -- just tell me WTF that does! I sympathise, but most of the world does not speak English and a lot of it can't read very well. Words need to be read, and what's more, in these days of globalisation, words need to be translated to sell abroad. Icons, pictograms and so on need no translation and little literacy. This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 9 11:15:00 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 09:15:00 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? Message-ID: > From: lproven at gmail.com> > Er. I found this difficult to follow...> > On 09/09/2007, dwight elvey wrote:> > > I had a chance to ask Faggin why he did finish the math coprocessor> > You mean, "didn't"?> > > for the Z8000's. He stated that the handwriting was quite clear.> > (Z8000s. No apostrophes on plurals. Not even on numbers. None, ever.)> > > The 8086 would soon dominate. I wasn't worth the effort to get the> > "It wasn't"?> > > math coprocessor working.> > Other than the addressing, the Z8000 had a nice register arangement.> > ("arrangement")> > > It was much closer to a RISC than the 8086 ever was.> > > I still have a couple of NA2000 series boards. This was another National> > start and drop.> > These has the 800 processor as dies on a PC board with other components.> > ("These have".)> > I don't meant to nitpick - the corrections in parentheses did not> impede my comprehension. The ones outside them, though, *did*. I> suggest taking just a few more seconds over a post?> Hi Sorry about that. I usually read before sending. Some is my dyslexia while the rest was my rushing. I'm also typing on a keyboard that tends to drop characters. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 9 11:34:06 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 09:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > I am getting SO tired of symbols on stuff -- just > tell me WTF that does! > > I sympathise, but most of the world does not speak > English and a lot > of it can't read very well. Words need to be read, > and what's more, in > these days of globalisation, words need to be > translated to sell > abroad. > > Icons, pictograms and so on need no translation and > little literacy. I agree that a certain amount of symbols may be required for the language barrier problem, and the fact that they take up less space. But, I was very confused recently - I rented a truck for a trip to pick up some computer hardware. On the highway, I was struggleing to turn on the headlights. Keep in mind, this is a GMC truck - an american made vehicle. The knob for the headlights was very confusing. On the dashboard, there was a little lit up picture that looked like a headlight with dots in front fo it. Dots? WTH? The knob was labeled with some symbols: 0 - Obvious, this must be off. Little picture of a headlight with dots in front of it - no clue. Little picture of headlight with lines in front of it, angled down. - regular headlights, I assume. Little picture of headlight with lines straight ahead - high beams, I take it. Little picture of two little lights - no clue. The problem was, turning the knob to the "headlight with angled down lines" did not give me a matching indicator on the dash. Not like "headlight with dots". Turning the knob to "0" resulted in the knob springing backwards a position or two. Sometimes displaying "headlight with dots" on the dashbaord, sometimes not. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out what was wrong with the knob - why wouldn't it stick at the off position. Who in their right mind spring loads a knob? I played with it on and off on the journey. I don't know if my headlights were on or off, or what was going on. It's almost as bad on my father's van. Where the "0" position doesn't actually work half the time. If the van feels like turning the headlights on, it will. The knob serves very little purpose, other than if you really want the headlights on, you have to set it that way, because sometimes it decides that it wants to turn them off, even in the middle of the night while you're driving, and it will do so. This is in stark contrast to my Toyota. Which has a knob with three positions - Picture of headlight with lines, blank, and "OFF". The knob works, it works all the time, and it's consistant. The blank position turns on small yellow lights in the front. It's not obvious if you'd never used it, but it doesn't take control of itself, and I'm used to it. Pushing the stalk in turns on high beams. Again, not obvious, but I am used to it. Now, I would assume that something as important as headlights would have been standardized by now, but it's not. And they should really include words, (With the pictures, if they really want those damned symbols). I don't care if that means they need to make different panels for other countries. How much extra could it cost? I don't want to decypher symbols. I want simple, easily glanced at, words. Now, on an on-topic tangent. The symbols on the switches on the back of a Microvax are even more confusing. Why, on a COMPUTER of all things, couldn't they write a word, something like "AUTOBOOT", rather than this trangle/circle/dot thing? -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 9 11:41:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 09:41:06 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <575131af0709090804u63ce8580v35fbeba56f06f299@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, , <575131af0709090804u63ce8580v35fbeba56f06f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E3BFB2.23828.2E8F989C@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Sep 2007 at 16:04, Liam Proven wrote: > (Z8000s. No apostrophes on plurals. Not even on numbers. None, ever.) Clearly, Liam, one has to watch one's grammatical p's and q's when you're around... :) Cheers, Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Sep 9 12:17:58 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:17:58 -0700 Subject: Crappy automobile user interfaces (was: Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E42AC6.1010802@mainecoon.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: [snip] > I agree that a certain amount of symbols may be > required for the language barrier problem, and the > fact that they take up less space. But, I was very > confused recently - I rented a truck for a trip to > pick up some computer hardware. [snip] We recently had a somewhat similar situation. About a week ago we ended up renting a car for a few hours. We were eventually delivered a Nissan Altima, which was already running. As we were climbing into the car, the rental agent tossed us a keyring dongle _but no key_ and said "To start the car, hold the key to the start/stop button, then press the button". Whatever, we were in a hurry so off we went. Upon completing our appointment, we returned to the car, dutifully held dongle to button and pressed said button. 'Acc' lights on the bezel. Press again, 'On' lights on the bezel and the Tokyo-by-night disco dashboard and environmental controls come to life. Press again and...everything turns off. WTF? Fortunately the owner's manual was still in the car; buried in chapter five is disclosed that in order to start the car it must be in park or neutral (check), the parking brake set (check) and the brake peddle depressed (ah, there we go). Dongle in place, press...'acc'...press 'On'...press...start! What irked us was the fact that despite having enough chatty real estate on the dash for the car to announce useful things like "Good morning!" (literally) there was precisely zero prompting of any sort that the configuration of the controls wasn't precisely what it wanted in order to cause that third button press to take the 'start' arc rather than the 'stop' arc. Driving back to the airport it occurred to us that there were other problems with this little dongle. It's an active device, so if the battery goes dead you have to stick it into a hidden "docking port" in order to start the car. Unfortunately, if the battery is dead and the doors are locked you can't get into the car in the first place. The manufacturer recognized that flaw and provides normal key locks in the doors, but the rental company doesn't provide keys because "they're not needed". Then there's nifty secondary effects; for example the steering column lock is electrically actuated so low/no bus voltage translates into "you can't unlock the steering". In the end we were left with the distinct feeling that this was one of those ideas that fell out of Marketing; further, regardless of the genesis of the concept it's a very bad idea for the user interface of a rental car to differ significantly from the mainstream. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 12:30:48 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 10:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070909102832.G74198@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Sep 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > dashboard, there was a little lit up picture that > looked like a headlight with dots in front fo it. > Dots? WTH? The knob was labeled with some symbols: That is the control for the shower. Find the one with the picture of Towelie, first. In Microsoft Weird, what does the little picture of a brick do? or the building on its side? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 9 12:28:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:28:41 -0700 Subject: Moto MVME121 paper Message-ID: <46E3CAD9.19003.2EBB26DD@cclist.sydex.com> Under the heading of "where did *that* come from?", I've stumbled on a loose leaf binder from Motorola titled "MVME121 System Hardware Manual". There are several publications within, but the bulk of the binder's taken up by a document called "MVME319 Intelligent Disk/Tape Controller User's Manual", which contains all sorts of detail, including principles of operation, command layouts and schematics. Circa 1986. A customer must've sent it to me; I have no use for it. Anyone want it for the cost of shipping? Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 9 12:41:36 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 10:41:36 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc Message-ID: > From: lproven at gmail.com ---snip---> > Icons, pictograms and so on need no translation and little literacy.> > This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/.> The problem is that even pictorial icons require context. They are as useless as another language if the user can't determine what the symbol refers to. I'm entering on a Windows Live mail tool. About the only symbol that makes any sense is the closed envelope. Others I recognize because I use them often. I could just as easily have learned Chinese symbols for these functions. As reference, read Jef Raskin's ( note: proper use this time ) book. Making universal symbols is just as limiting and using language. In many cases worse. It was a nice idea that just wasn't based on fact. Now we are all stuck with it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 9 13:01:25 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 14:01:25 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>At one even shorter period of time, the VT103 backplane had a >>PDP-11/73 quad CPU, 4 MB of memory, DHV11 and a Sigma RQD11-EC >>controller that supported FOUR * 600 MB ESDI Hitachi hard drives >>although it was essential that all of the hard drives were placed >>OUTSIDE the VT103 since each required its own fan and all of the >>hard drives and their fans also used a separate external power >>supply. >> >Wow... that's a lotta stuff for a VT103. > Jerome Fine replies: The "lotta stuff" was there only for a very short demonstration to show it could be done. At the time, the "lotta" stuff" was worth far more in a BA123 with triple the number of boards, although those same Hitachi hard drives were used there as well. >I have a VT103 up in the attic. I _might_ be able to squeeze a VT100 >case somewhere in my office... these days, though, I'd go with a 3.5" >SCSI drive and a Qbus SCSI controller. The real question is, what to >choose for CPU and memory. I could easily pull a KDF11B from the >shelf, add a meg or two on a quad-height board, and between those >three boards, have a running system. What I think I'd prefer, though, >is something with a KDJ11. > >So presuming one is starting from the assumption that you have a VT103 >and a Qbus SCSI controller, what are good choices for the remainder of >the system? One can assume that 1MB is minimum, but 4MB wouldn't be >unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so >I'm not as conversant with what's out there, but ISTR that there's the >dual-height KDJ11A, and there must be a quad-height KDJ11 of some >flavor, with a variety of common accessories, but I couldn't quote >chapter and verse. > >I have an 11/53-level KDJ11 board from a DEC comms controller, with >-11 ROMs installed, but it still has S-box handles, and only has, >IIRC, 1MB on it. I'm thinking that any sort of 11/83 or 11/93 board >is probably going to be priced out of my range, but I'm willing to >entertain the idea. I really don't _need_ the speed of an 11/83 or >11/93, but 4MB on board is attractive (if I've got my boards right). > >Anyone else have any ideas on how to trick out a VT103? > Probably the first step is to add 22 bit address support to the backplane. That requires a steady hand with a soldering iron and probably is best done with old lead solder since the added wires will be attached to solder points that already have lead solder. In any case, almost no additional solder is needed. About the best wire to use is wire-wrap since it is thin, but very sturdy. Keep all the insulation except for the 6 mid points where the wire must be soldered to the existing backplane. 4 wires with 8 connections each are all that is required. If you require help locating the solder points, I can look at one of the VT103 backplanes that have been modified. Fortunately, DEC never attempted to use a PDP-11/03, so the 4 address lines at not attached to anything else - like power. And having mentioned power, it is possible to solder wires to the backplane 5V and 12V that can then be used to power a hard disk drive. Any 3.5" SCSI hard drive can be supported, but the less power needed the better. The VT103 power supply has a maximum draw on the 5V of just 16 Amps, so be careful. Back when all of that work was first being done, an ST412 (actually an old RD51) 5 1/4" hard disk drive was available and could be just barely squeezed under the tube. However, an RQDX1,2 was out of the question since they require 6 Amps for the 5V. An RQDX3 is probably OK when used with a quad CPU like the M8189 or the M8190 (since there are no boot ROMs on any RQDXn controller). I guess that you could type in a boot program (if you don't do it too often) using hardware ODT - it takes about 5 minutes. Either a dual or a quad KDJ11 can be used. Almost EVERY quad KDJ11 is really the same as a PDP-11/83 except for the 18 MHz crystal. And since you can't use PMI memory without further modification of the first 2 slots to add ABCD like the first 3 slots on a BA23, it seems that you are stuck with an ordinary PDP-11/73. Most VT103 systems came with a paddle card that was intended to be used with a DLV11-J and a dual PDP-11 Qbus card. The paddle card connected the terminal and keyboard to the 4th channel on the DLV11-J that was then strapped as consol and the normal 25 pin serial connector on the back could then be connected to a second serial channel on the DLV11-J (and probably sent to a serial line printer). As for the SCSI host adapter, if it has boot ROMs (most third party DEC MSCP SCSI host adapters do), then you can easily use a dual M8192 with a DLV11-J as the serial interface. Add memory and you are in business - after you load the SCSI hard drive with files. In most cases, an RX23 (3 1/2" HD floppy) can be attached to the SCSI host adapter which can then be used to transfer small file. In addition, if you can find an Iomega SCSI insider, they support 100 MB replaceable media. Since both replaceable media drives can also be attached to a PC running E11, that can serve as your source for files. Of course, E11 will also allow your SCSI hard drives, but Windows is extremely difficult to convince (I have done it - ask if you want the details) that there is a SCSI hard drive that has an RT-11 file structure. And finally, ask Zane about what you need to connect a CDROM drive to your SCSI host adapter on the PDP-11. On the PC side, I think that E11 will recognize a DVD drive with a CD and it is possible to burn a CD on the PC with an RT-11 file structure, although I will have to recall the details of how the actual burn was done from the file of the CD image. Can I answer any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 9 13:02:07 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 14:02:07 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> >Paul Anderson wrote: >I hope to have it running on an 11/05 and a 11/34 late this year' > > Jerome Fine replies: Yes that seems to be the goal, but what will you do with RT-11 at that point? If playing games is the objective, then RT-11 is not really being used except to start the process. Based on the few responses, I guess that no one is writing any programs, let alone modifying any utilities. And almost certainly, no one seems to be modifying device drivers or the operating system itself. If anyone is actually interested in that aspect, please let me know. Tim also sent a short reply which was very appreciated. However his job and family commitments are such that Tim no longer has any time to give to RT-11. But any help in locating old source files would be appreciated. I have been unable to locate the most recent source code for SDX.SYS which places most of the code and data in high memory. Also missing is the most recent source code for MACRO-11. The Y2K source code modifications would also be interesting, but are not extensive. One interesting (and almost trivial) modification to the operating system is support for READ ONLY files. The resident monitor requires modifications in only a couple of areas to support READ ONLY files. However, DIR and PIP require far more - is anyone interested? Probably the user visual interface is the most easily decided. Protected files are shown by DIR with a "P" beside the file name. If the file is READ ONLY, then an "R" can be used. I suggest using "r" (lower case) when the file is both READ ONLY and Protected. Does anyone have any other suggestions - other than using TWO characters as with "PR"? When two files are displayed per line (as is the normal case) and the starting block numbers are included, 40 characters per file description is just too limited and more than 80 characters per line is not recommended. Now that the year requires 4 digits, there is not enough room for even 2 more characters on the line. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 13:13:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 13:13:05 -0500 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 9/9/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I have a VT103 up in the attic... > > Probably the first step is to add 22 bit address support > to the backplane. That requires a steady hand with a > soldering iron and probably is best done with old lead > solder since the added wires will be attached to solder > points that already have lead solder. Naturally. > In any case, almost > no additional solder is needed. About the best wire to use > is wire-wrap since it is thin, but very sturdy. Keep all > the insulation except for the 6 mid points where the > wire must be soldered to the existing backplane. 4 wires > with 8 connections each are all that is required. If you > require help locating the solder points, I can look at one > of the VT103 backplanes that have been modified. Fortunately, > DEC never attempted to use a PDP-11/03, so the 4 address > lines at not attached to anything else - like power. I have upgraded backplanes in the past. I found the easiest way to do it was to use recycled DEC backplane power strips - bits of thin metal that have a small (pin-sized hole) alternating with a larger hole that misses the next pin. I recovered some from a PDP-8/L that arrived to me with broken backplane. DEC used to sell it as a separate item for customers who were working with foundation modules and such. I don't know where I'd get it now. > ... However, an RQDX1,2 > was out of the question since they require 6 Amps for > the 5V. An RQDX3 is probably OK when used with a quad > CPU like the M8189 or the M8190 (since there are no > boot ROMs on any RQDXn controller). I guess that you > could type in a boot program (if you don't do it too often) > using hardware ODT - it takes about 5 minutes. I was already presuming a SCSI interface. > Either a dual or a quad KDJ11 can be used. Almost EVERY > quad KDJ11 is really the same as a PDP-11/83 except for > the 18 MHz crystal. And since you can't use PMI memory > without further modification of the first 2 slots to add > ABCD like the first 3 slots on a BA23, it seems that you > are stuck with an ordinary PDP-11/73. True enough. I was more thinking of the advanced processors (11/93?) for any onboard memory, not for PMI. > Most VT103 systems came with a paddle card that was intended > to be used with a DLV11-J and a dual PDP-11 Qbus card. The > paddle card connected the terminal and keyboard to the 4th > channel on the DLV11-J that was then strapped as consol > and the normal 25 pin serial connector on the back could > then be connected to a second serial channel on the DLV11-J > (and probably sent to a serial line printer). I do not have this card, but do know about it, and have been looking for one, casually, for 20 years. > Since both replaceable media drives can also > be attached to a PC running E11... We work in different worlds... I'd be doing any off-line prep work with Simh and Linux. > Can I answer any other questions? Since I'm not likely to be attempting this for a year or two (after getting back from another winter at Pole), I'll probably ask questions as they come up. For now, though, I can easily put together a KDF11 system, so I'll probably start there. I was just interested in what I might need to put together a SCSI-based KDJ11 system with 4MB. -ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Sep 7 03:07:27 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:07:27 +0100 Subject: power brownout logger? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA94@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well I would call it a data logger. Some DPM (Digital Panel Meters) have RS232 (or 458 balanced line) outputs. They can be set for one output per second. Just capture and store. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 07 September 2007 00:23 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: power brownout logger? Richard wrote: > Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the > net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking > for. > > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. > > Any suggestions? check here. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Sep 8 00:23:07 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:23:07 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46E230EE.4020200@hawkmountain.net> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> <46E230EE.4020200@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <46E231BB.8060205@msu.edu> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> Liam Proven wrote: >>> On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all -- >>>> >>>> I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac >>>> (or >>>> two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming >>>> on a >>>> Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations >>>> for a >>>> development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm >>>> flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac >>>> Classic/SE (so >>>> I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the >>>> development itself on a IIfx. >>>> >>>> In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a >>>> clock of >>>> sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying >>>> around >>>> (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display >>>> one >>>> digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk >>>> network to >>>> keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure >>>> it'll be >>>> a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some >>>> otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). >>>> >>> >>> That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. >>> >>> I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the >>> story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various >>> elderly Macs... >>> >>> http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html >>> >>> >> Thanks for the vote of support :). I think most of the code should >> be dead simple but I'm not sure how the time-sync networking >> portion's going to go. I also need to pick up some serial Appletalk >> cabling; the SEs and the SE/30s have ethernet cards, but the Classics >> are unexpandable and thus do not. Maybe I can just find some more >> SEs to use :). > > time sync ? only one needs to tell time :-) ... the rest just need to > display > the remainder of the digits... > > Either use messages over the appletalk of what to display... or treat > each > computer 'up' the chain like a dumb mechanical counter.... > > call the boxes H1, H2, M1, M2, S1, S2.... S2 tells the time... when it > rolls over to > zero it sends a 'tick' to S1... S1 knows its 'position', so when it > rolls over from 5 > to 0, it sends a tick to M2.... and up the 'ticking' goes. > > Either way would be 'fun' :-) > > -- Curt > The former's basically what I was planning on doing. The "challenge" I spoke of is that I'm new to programming the Mac and new to Appletalk so I need to dig into what it'll take to write client/server code for "distributing" the time amongst the machines :). I've found all the requisite documentation, it's just a matter of sitting down and digging into it now... - Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Sep 8 02:51:13 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 00:51:13 -0700 Subject: Looking for BA23 "back door" & MicroVAX II memory interconnect cable Message-ID: <46E25471.5000700@msu.edu> Hi all -- Title says it all -- I have a BA23 enclosure (soon to contain a MicroVAX II) that's missing the door that covers the card cage (not sure what the "official" name for this part is). Right now all the patch panels for the console and ethernet are left dangling and I'd love to have something to anchor them to :). I'm also looking for a memory interconnect cable to connect two M7609 memory boards to the CPU, but I can probably build one of those myself if push comes to shove. Anyone have these parts for sale/trade? Thanks in advance, - Josh From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Sep 8 16:54:46 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 17:54:46 -0400 Subject: DEC Alphaserver 800 front panel doors Message-ID: <002a01c7f262$dee64c20$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> Anyone have a Alphaserver 800 front bezel or front doors for $$ or trade? From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 18:00:22 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 19:00:22 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <000001c7f26c$0997c6c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> >Roy J. Tellason rtellason at verizon.net >Fri Sep 7 22:49:03 CDT 2007 > >So I was poking around at bitsavers after snagging those TI databooks, and >stumbled across some files pertaining to TurboDOS. I'd read about that [snip] Roy, The NorthStar Horizon ran TurboDOS and there were special versions of the Horizon specifically to run multiuser applications. The manuals are available here: http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Northstar/ I think Dave Dunfield has some TurboDOS disk images on his site: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm I suppose in theory you could boot his Horizon simulator with the TurboDOS images and use the manuals to experiment with it. If you really want to use real hardware, you could either buy one of the specially modified Horizons or just upgrade a normal one. I have seen the Horizon multi serial port and the "slave processor" cards on Ebay from time to time. Thanks and I wish you the best of luck with your search. I hope this helps. Andrew Lynch From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 9 04:22:03 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:22:03 +0100 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <200709072207.l87M73wR024741@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1189329723.842.1.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-09-07 at 17:15 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I really did see a commercial copy, printed package and all, hanging > on a peg. It's one of those things that I'm regretting that I didn't > purchase, but, as I said, at the time, I only had a 4K PDP-8, and > merely lusted after a *POWERFUL* PDP-11 ;-) I'm sure we can all contribute to a Jay-annoying massively off-topic thread of stories of stuff we nearly bought. Mine ends with "And the thing is I had 50 quid on me at the time, they're worth ten times that now..." Gordon From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 13:39:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:39:45 -0400 Subject: Apple boot disks? Message-ID: <30904C61-CEAD-4723-BEEC-5823E39BC2A3@neurotica.com> Is there anyone here with a running Apple ][-class system who would be willing to cut some boot floppies of Apple DOS 3.3 and/or ProDOS and send them to me? I finally got a good composite video monitor and I'm in need of a diversion. This would be for a ][+ and a //e. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 13:46:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:46:59 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070907154806.4E268FB8E0@mac-mini.local> References: <20070907154806.4E268FB8E0@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >>>> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump >>>> Card. >>> >>> Ahhh, >>> i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... >>> ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( > >> Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a >> construction article, after all. > > ... my fingers are all thumbs when it comes to hardware > development. I'm more > interested in "low level" programming This would hardly be "development"; nearly everything in the Trump Card design is readily available and easy to find, with the possible exception of the Z8581 clock generator. All you need is a bunch of parts, a blank ISA prototyping board, a wire-wrap gun, and some time! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 9 14:24:43 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari Portfolio won't shut off Message-ID: <200709091924.l89JOhfG010400@floodgap.com> Or more to the point, it won't *stay* off -- I type Fn-O and it blinks off for a second or two, then comes right back on. Anyone have an easy fix for this? Warm and cold resetting the unit didn't work. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Once used rectally, [it] should not be used orally. --Real thermometer label From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 14:47:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 15:47:46 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E15069.20730.250CEC27@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E19AC5.9060707@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E15069.20730.250CEC27@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Too bad IBM sold the WRONG PC. Some sort of LAB computer IBM made >> had a 68000 I think. > > Ah, the IBM CS9000 "instrument computer". It was announced shortly > before the 5150 and had a few people speculating that the 5150 would > be 68K based also. Sadly, no: > > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/cs9000.html > > But the aesthetics were terrible... Wow...I think it's gorgeous, myself! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 14:53:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 15:53:56 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova 4 needs a new home In-Reply-To: <288920.96310.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <288920.96310.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7B72B6CA-3F18-4035-9987-EF89850AB749@neurotica.com> On Sep 8, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Here's an update. It doesn't have a paper tape >> reader, but it does have >> an 8-inch floppy drive and lots of serial ports. >> The Nova needs to be >> gone by the 24th of this month at the absolute >> latest -- preferable >> sooner. Pictures can be seen at >> http://frotz.homeunix.org/tmp/nova/. > > I really, really, really wish I were close enough. Why > is all the good stuff on the other side of the > country! Someone buy this beautiful machine! Yeah, my sentiments exactly. :-( Sometimes I think the oldest hardware in Florida (aside from mine) is a few 486 boxes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 15:00:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 16:00:34 -0400 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 8, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Chris M wrote: >> Chris, please just post the item number for these >> things or use >> TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay >> links wrap >> several lines in my email reader and require me to >> dig the number out >> manually. > > I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny > thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. > Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on > this list (muahahahahahahaha). Why the worry about never knowing what you're clicking on? If you're worried about viruses, you're using a computing platform that's unsuitable for networked applications. If you're worried about accidentally seeing some bizarre bestiality porn, you need to just grow a pair and click the "close" button. 'Tis just that simple. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 9 15:12:13 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacCon driver disk Message-ID: Does someone here have the driver disk for a Maccon MC+30IET64 ethernet board? I would very much like to have an image of this disk so I can get my Mac SE/30 networked. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Sep 9 15:18:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 15:18:12 -0500 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E45504.8010604@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 8, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Chris M wrote: > Why the worry about never knowing what you're clicking on? If you're > worried about viruses, you're using a computing platform that's > unsuitable for networked applications. If you're worried about > accidentally seeing some bizarre bestiality porn, you need to just grow > a pair and click the "close" button. 'Tis just that simple. And if you're on dialup, or even EVDO, waiting for an eBay page to load and finding that you're totally uninterested is the pits. Basic mailing list etiquette. If I post a URL, it's just *polite* to post a 10-word description. Even more simple. Doc From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sun Sep 9 16:14:30 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 22:14:30 +0100 Subject: Tiny URL (was: what's this?) In-Reply-To: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8 Sep 2007, at 19:44, Chris M wrote: > ... > I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny > thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. > Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on > this list (muahahahahahahaha). If you go to it sets a cookie on your browser; thereafter everytime you click on a tiny URL it takes you to a "preview" page first, shows you the full URL and invites you to click on it. Stroller. From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Sep 9 16:54:43 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so > I'm not as conversant with what's out there... I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name was Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 9 17:04:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:04:20 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > I sympathise, but most of the world does not speak English and a lot > of it can't read very well. Words need to be read, and what's more, in > these days of globalisation, words need to be translated to sell > abroad. I play some Japanese Games -- English Words often are used as Current/ Futuristic details not in text, but in the graphics shown. > Icons, pictograms and so on need no translation and little literacy. But the problem with Icons is that they are culture specfic. + This may be a FAN in the USA. V This is a FAN in Japan. > This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/. > All I want to know is the A/C on in the summer? :) Ben alias woodelf From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 9 18:14:54 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:14:54 -0700 Subject: Steven Spielberg's father and the IBM 1800/1130 Message-ID: <46E47E6E.6010305@bitsavers.org> Interesting bit of trivia I discovered today. I was digitizing an oral history recorded in Mar 1988 with Arnie Spielberg today, and it turns out he was the architect of the 1800/1130 at IBM San Jose before becoming VP of Engineering at SDS in 1965. A transcript will be up on the CHM web site eventually, and will post a URL when it's available. From useddec at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 18:59:29 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 18:59:29 -0500 Subject: DEC RF and RZ drives and more Message-ID: <624966d60709091659r27aab879w4a719b5e7853f075@mail.gmail.com> > > I just found a hige supply of drives, and have to move them before the C-4 > goes off. I hope to be rebuilt by thanksgiving. Please contact meoff list. > > Thanks, Paul > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 7 13:05:27 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:05:27 -0500 Subject: Adaptec ACB2002(a) Controller Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907120249.0da2cec8@localhost> Adaptec ACB2002(a) Controller I think this was an ISA MFM controller Jumper settings: Adaptec ACB2002(a) Controller Card Drive Type Table: Type Head Cyl E.G. 0 2 612 Miniscribe 3012 1 2 306 Syquest 306 2 4 480 Miniscribe 4020 3 4 306 Seagate ST-412 Jumper Settings Tables: Drive 0: Drive 1: Type Inst Remove Type Inst Remove 0 MNOP 0 QRST 1 MN OP 1 QR ST 2 OP MN 2 ST QR 3 MNOP 3 QRST ----- 986. Everything that can be invented has been invented. -- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 21:34:58 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 03:34:58 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0709091934s11b9b63dpc589fea18cf8ee2d@mail.gmail.com> On 09/09/07, dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: lproven at gmail.com> > Er. I found this difficult to follow...> > On 09/09/2007, dwight elvey wrote:> > > I had a chance to ask Faggin why he did finish the math coprocessor> > You mean, "didn't"?> > > for the Z8000's. He stated that the handwriting was quite clear.> > (Z8000s. No apostrophes on plurals. Not even on numbers. None, ever.)> > > The 8086 would soon dominate. I wasn't worth the effort to get the> > "It wasn't"?> > > math coprocessor working.> > Other than the addressing, the Z8000 had a nice register arangement.> > ("arrangement")> > > It was much closer to a RISC than the 8086 ever was.> > > I still have a couple of NA2000 series boards. This was another National> > start and drop.> > These has the 800 processor as dies on a PC board with other components.> > ("These have".)> > I don't meant to nitpick - the corrections in parentheses did not> impede my comprehension. The ones outside them, though, *did*. I> suggest taking just a few more seconds over a post?> > Hi > Sorry about that. I usually read before sending. Some is my dyslexia while > the rest was my rushing. I'm also typing on a keyboard that tends to > drop characters. Ahhhh. Hope I didn't come over as too arsey... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 9 22:02:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 20:02:57 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com>, <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Sep 2007 at 16:04, woodelf wrote: > But the problem with Icons is that they are culture specfic. > + This may be a FAN in the USA. > V This is a FAN in Japan. > > This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/. Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee hardware? I have to admit that I'm another one who's mystified by icons; unless they're part of some very specialized application. Such as in musical transcription software, where an eighth note (quaver for you in the UK) means just that--to write it out in words would take longer to interpret than "You want an eighth note? Just click on the eighth note." "Sixty-fourth note" or "hemidemisemiquaver" is just too cumbersome. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 22:20:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 23:20:26 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <08BA91E9-F1E4-4FA5-9741-350E430BF6E2@neurotica.com> On Sep 7, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If one wanted to goof around with the Z8000 family as a coprocessor > card, I'd be sore tempted to wire up something with a Z8002 and 64K > of SRAM. You get the instructions without the expense and you don't > have to deal with the (awful) Z8000 segmented mode. And relatively > easy to do a lashup. Instead of Ciarcia's bucket, you could probably > do with a single Z8036. Fit the whole thing on a "short" card. I would love to do that. Actually, even more than that, I'd really like to put together a Z8000-based SBC with some dialect of Forth in ROM. I have a few Z16C02 and Z8536 chips here that might be well-suited to that purpose. > IMOHO, only Motorola and NS of all of the "16 bit" chip producers > ever understood the importance of a continuous non-segmented memory > space. Given the time of introduction, I consider the 68K to be a > marvel of MPU design. Too bad IBM didn't adopt it for the PC. ...a bad decision for which the world is still paying the price. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 22:23:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 23:23:16 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709072349.03888.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200709072349.03888.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 11:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going > there > (RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their > "network" > out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case > is none. > I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more > cards, and > somehow or other make it work. They were RS422 if memory serves. I worked at a computer store when I was in high school, from 1984 to 1986...we used one of those Televideo distributed CP/M-ish systems (810?) there, for store operations/POS/inventory stuff. It worked very well and was reliable, but it wasn't very fast. Our POS and inventory system was written in CBASIC-80. It was good stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Sep 9 22:38:36 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steven Spielberg's father and the IBM 1800/1130 In-Reply-To: <46E47E6E.6010305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <380722.20158.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> He was apparently at the GE Computer Division in the early days, and designed one of GE's process control computers, and was previously working for RCA on the Bizmac program. See Homer R. Oldfield, "King of the Seven Dwarfs: General Electric's Ambiguous Challenge to the Computer Industry", IEEE Computer Society Press, 1996. --- Al Kossow wrote: > Interesting bit of trivia I discovered today. > > I was digitizing an oral history recorded in Mar > 1988 with > Arnie Spielberg today, and it turns out he was the > architect > of the 1800/1130 at IBM San Jose before becoming VP > of Engineering > at SDS in 1965. > > A transcript will be up on the CHM web site > eventually, and will > post a URL when it's available. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 9 22:49:46 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Symbols on computers (was: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <439218.60892.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first > used on PeeCee > hardware? > Well, I'm not sure about PeeCee's, but I have complained before about the icons used on the MicroVax switches. They don't make too much sense, and simple words would have been MUCH better. I'm sorry, but it's hard to design a picture that means "Halt at the Chevron, don't boot automatically" I know that on early clones, indicators were clearly marked. "POWER", "DISK", etc. Later, cheaper machines went to a little picture of a stack of platters for disk activity. Macintosh computers fairly early on used symbols, and the "Programmer's Switch" option featured some confusing little pictures to represent what should have been labeled "RESET" and "INTERRUPT". We are at a point where the indicator for POWER is universal as being a picture of a zero with a one in it. I don't remember that being used on early machines - the power switch was typically marked with a 1 and a 0 (of course, they were real switches too, none of this soft-power stuff). And pushbuttons were typically labeled with 1/0. Anyone know when this symbol got established? -Ian From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Sep 9 15:22:12 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:22:12 -0400 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070909160807.03ac42f8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave McGuire may have mentioned these words: >On Sep 8, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Chris M wrote: >>>Chris, please just post the item number for these >>>things or use >>>TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay >>>links wrap >>>several lines in my email reader and require me to >>>dig the number out >>>manually. >> >> I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny >>thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. >>Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on >>this list (muahahahahahahaha). You'll try? What's so hard to take this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Tandy-200-48k-dual-bank-RAM-module-not-Model-100-102_W0QQitemZ290157890837QQihZ019QQcategoryZ74947QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and trim it down to: http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ290157890837 ??? [[ Simple instructions in Engrish: Trim all between last slash & first underscore, then trim all after item number. ]] Unless you're viewing the link on the aforementioned Tandy 200 (which would then only wrap by 2 characters) I seriously doubt there's a MUA that would have a problem with the latter URL. > Why the worry about never knowing what you're clicking on? If >you're worried about viruses, you're using a computing platform >that's unsuitable for networked applications. Aren't we all? [[ read: who here actually read the list on their OS/2, VMS, MVS/XA, etc. machines? IINM, there are a few viruses for MacOS, Linux & friends... and at least a proof-of concept boot-sector virus written in x86 assembly that can infect anything running x86 no matter what OS, I believe... ]] > If you're worried >about accidentally seeing some bizarre bestiality porn, you need to >just grow a pair and click the "close" button. Something tells me if there someone were to post a link to such a site, Jay would 1) have a conniption, then 2) ban said induhvidual and post a warning WRT the link. > 'Tis just that simple. Couldn't agree more. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 10 01:16:42 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 23:16:42 -0700 Subject: Symbols on computers (was: Wang 300 Calc) References: <439218.60892.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E4E149.1F21F3F@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first > > used on PeeCee > > hardware? ... > - the power switch was typically marked with a 1 and a > 0 (of course, they were real switches too, none of > this soft-power stuff). And pushbuttons were typically > labeled with 1/0. Anyone know when this symbol got > established? I'm of the impression the 0 and 1 for power switches is an IBMism, at least I think I first saw it on IBM equipment perhaps in the 70s, before others took up with it. Something makes me think I've seen it on IBM equipment older than that as well. 0 and 1 never made much sense to me for the power switch, inasmuch as 0 and 1 can refer to lots of things besides main power, and the 0 is typically more of circle than a 0. 0 and 1? Circle and stick? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 9 15:04:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:04:25 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JO400AU8AF10K19@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:49:03 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >So I was poking around at bitsavers after snagging those TI databooks, and >stumbled across some files pertaining to TurboDOS. I'd read about that >before, might even have some manual or other on it someplace, but I've >never had the pleasure. I do have one box that was supposed to be a >multi-user system, that being my TeleVideo 816, which had TurboDOS as an >option but the one I have came with something called MMMOST, which I wasn't >all that impressed with. A guy was talking about sending me a tape but that >never happened. > >I remember hearing about one or two other packages that were similar (never >mind MP/M, which I've also not messed with and don't get the impression I >want to bother with really), but have never had the pleasure of running any >of them. > >A while back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a box" >systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I think that's >the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it. Multibus, very nice bus and expensive cards. I have a few multibus cards. Intel used it in their MDS800 and a few otehrs as well. >Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going there >(RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their "network" >out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case is none. >I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more cards, and >somehow or other make it work. > >And speaking of the networking aspect of it, do any of you guys know how they >did it? I recall one time getting a glimpse of some system or other that was >S-100 but also had a set of connectors at thet op of each card, which is >what they used for their inter-processor linking rather than trying to push >it through the bus. The reason for this is not apparent to me. Many ways to do it, using a commmon port or a pool of common memory for in box networking and serial ports as well. There were also ARCnet, pre Ethernet and even Ethernet. >I've also seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was supposed to >work through serial ports, which pretty many machines had, althogh they >appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to wire-OR RS232 signals, >which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. And what software support >there was for this wasn't real apparent. That was a poor mans networking. Basically the serial ports were used as CD/CSMA bus and there was some protocal like Ethernet but slower and could use the usually common async chips. I have such a net going for my CP/M crates and all. >I dunno, I've just got this fascination for assorted 8-bit parts talking to >each other through some smallish number of wires, I guess it's easier to >deal with than some of the big iron you guys handle regularly, which I can't >afford to go get never mind housing. And I've seen multiple processors used >in stuff already, as in some musical equipment that passed "event >information" from one chip to the next with only a couple of pins, or the >daisywheel printer that had _four_ 804x procesors in it for different >functions. This is not a new thing. >TurboDOS is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's too >much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software, stuff I'd >leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same old Console / >Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to something different or >unique. I found the same thing to be the case when I looked at FORTH, too >much of the usual stuff, and that was supposed to have been used in some >control applications? I must've missed something there... ???? Whats the question or point? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 9 15:09:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:09:50 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? Message-ID: <0JO40083PAO2DWQ6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Does anyone use RT-11? Yes, I have at this time four Qbus systems from 11/03 through 11/73 and run RT-11 on them. Rarely games but usually for hacking around and good OS fun. Often to just get away from M$! One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. Alllison From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 01:52:42 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:52:42 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee > hardware? Hmm... I've been mystified by strange symbols above connectors on the backs of machines for a while now... Especially when it's from a manufacturer I don't usually deal with. At least my own interest, the BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. > > I have to admit that I'm another one who's mystified by icons; unless > they're part of some very specialized application. Such as in > musical transcription software, where an eighth note (quaver for you > in the UK) means just that--to write it out in words would take > longer to interpret than "You want an eighth note? Just click on the > eighth note." "Sixty-fourth note" or "hemidemisemiquaver" is just > too cumbersome. > Music is a good example where the symbology has had a good time to develop and get standardised, so there's not a lot of choice when you want to depict a quaver, etc. Computers are so new, though, and the use of pictographs on them even newer, that there seems to be no standard for even typical items, never mind the esoteric ports for functions... I've seen "=" for parallel and "- - -" for serial on one box, and symbols reminicent from flow-charts for printers on another.. If you don't already know what a port might be, then you've no chance.. Just write "printer port" FGS.... (I had a light come on the car dash the other day. Looked a bit like the logo on some alien space ship in a Sci-Fi show. Nothing recognisable, nor memorable enough for me to describe it now. But it was yellow, rather than green, so I had to stop, dig out the handbook from under the passenger seat, and look it up. Then look up the mysterious acronym that the description referred to. ["This indicates that the XYZ subsystem has activated" - almost as usefull as some PC BIOS handbooks. "FooBar activation option? - This allows you to enable or disable this option" Yes, I worked that out, but what does the option DO??] It took me a good couple of minutes to find out that it was nothing to worry about, and I wasn't being warned that the engine was about to blow up. Now where's the advantage in that??) I agree with Dwight; icons: nice idea.. shame it doesn't work... Rob From cc at corti-net.de Mon Sep 10 04:33:39 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:33:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2007, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Yes that seems to be the goal, but what will you do with > RT-11 at that point? If playing games is the objective, > then RT-11 is not really being used except to start the > process. I do this on our 11/10 with VT11/VR17 to play lunar lander (the visitors and especially children like it!). > Based on the few responses, I guess that no one is writing > any programs, let alone modifying any utilities. And almost > certainly, no one seems to be modifying device drivers or > the operating system itself. If anyone is actually interested > in that aspect, please let me know. Don't say that. My "main" PDP11 in our museum is a 11/34 with all sorts of peripherals. I've built a small interface to attach a PC to a DR11-C and wrote a RT-11 device driver (works in FB and XM). On the PC side I have virtual disk images of various sizes (up to 65536 RT-11 blocks) and on the RT-11 side I have up to eight devices that map to these disk images. Although the data path between the 11 and the PC is only 8 bits (I was too lazy to make it 16 bits, that would have required two latches and logic for multiplexing/demultiplexing) I achieve data rates of about 70kB/s. I can transfer whole RK05 disk images in less than one minute (that's btw. the reason why I built this interface) with COPY/DEV (in both directions). And I can boot from the virtual disk... The project isn't finished yet (no time, other projects, ...). The protocol needs to be more robust and fault tolerant, and I need to implement some kind of timeouts on both sides. Ah, almost forgot that: Since there is no official way to format DECtapes under RT-11, I've enhanced the modified TC11 formatter from the spring '76 sigtape to be verbose and tell the user what to do. I think this counts as "modifying utilities", doesn't it? :-) Christian From asholz at topinform.de Mon Sep 10 04:35:34 2007 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:35:34 +0200 Subject: DEC Minc 11 Message-ID: <46E50FE6.6060702@topinform.de> Hello all, last weekend I got a MINC 11 including docs (book 6 is missing), but no software. I'm interested in the system and demonstration disk, even as disk images, mentioned in the MINC's manuals. Andreas (from Germany) From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Sep 10 05:47:41 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 03:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 10.0 - VCFX Message-ID: Announcing, Vintage Computer Festival 10.0 _ _ ______ ______ __ __ | | | | | __ | | ____| \ \ / / | | | | | | |_| | | \ \/ / | | | | | | | |___ \ / | | | | | | | ___| / \ \ \/ / | | _ | | / /\ \ \ / | |__| | | | / / \ \ \/ |______| |_| /_/ \_\ November 3-4, 2007 Computer History Museum Mountain View, California http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/ Ten years! From a quirky little event at the county fairgrounds, the Vintage Computer Festival has grown into the preeminent celebration of computers and their history. We want you to come help us celebrate the tenth anniversary of the VCF in proper style! WHAT: The tenth annual Vintage Computer Festival: VCFX! WHEN: Saturday and Sunday, November 3rd & 4th, 2007 WHERE: The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. WHY: Vintage computers, baby! WHO: Why YOU, silly! This announcement is simply a harbinger. The next long-awaited edition of the VCF Gazette is on its way soon with complete VCFX details. In the meantime, you can also check the VCFX web pages for the latest information: http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/ VOLUNTEERS NEEDED We can use some volunteers this year to help make this the smoothest event yet. Contact VCF Producer Sellam Ismail at for details. EXHIBITORS If you've been waiting for that one year to finally do an exhibit at the VCF, THIS IS THAT YEAR. Sign up now! http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/exhibit.php VENDORS We currently have plenty of vendor booths available. But don't wait, sign up now because booths sell out quickly: http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/vendor.php Stay tuned for further announcements of VCFX coming your way soon! Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org/ To remove yourself from the VCF mailing list, please visit: http://www.vintage.org/maillist.php?reset=1&state=find From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 06:22:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:22:14 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sep 9, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so >> I'm not as conversant with what's out there... > > I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I > never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was > some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the > normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine > was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name > was Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: Are you sure that wasn't "Ernie"? That sounds like something my old friend and mentor Ernie Perez might have tried. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 09:32:18 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:32:18 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/07, Rob wrote: > On 10/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee > > hardware? > > Hmm... I've been mystified by strange symbols above connectors on the > backs of machines for a while now... Especially when it's from a > manufacturer I don't usually deal with. At least my own interest, the > BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? Probably not. What if it were clearly labelled in Russian? Or Arabic? Or Chinese? No bally use at all. But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. Stop being so provincial! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Sep 10 09:42:28 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 9, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I >> never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was >> some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the >> normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine >> was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name was >> Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: > > Are you sure that wasn't "Ernie"? That sounds like something my old friend > and mentor Ernie Perez might have tried. Pretty sure it was Ozzie. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 10:48:23 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:48:23 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general public these days will never have seen such a beast! A quick rundown of parallel printer ports here shows: - a symbol very like the MS word one. - the word "Parallel" - a rectangle with a knob on the side with an overlayed square with equal horizontal lines on it. - a rectangle with an overlayed square with different length lines - similar but looks more like paper falling out of a slot - a rectangle with a corner cut off above a horizontal line I couldn't find two that were exactly the same! And you think that makes it easier? I've come across connectors on machines in the past with cryptic symbols on them that I haven't a clue what they mean, so have no idea what the connector is for! At least with "IMPRIMATEUR" I can look it up in a dictionary, or type it into google! No wonder mass-market PCs are produced with *colour coded* connectors, and mass-market peripherals are issued with matching coloured plugs... > Stop being so provincial! Hey, we ruled half the world at one point... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 10:50:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:50:49 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com>, <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E50569.1419.3387E29B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 15:32, Liam Proven wrote: > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. I have very recent software that uses an icon of a 5.25" floppy (or maybe it's an 8" floppy) for "Save to disk". How many people today even knows what a 5.25" floppy looks like? When will the icon of a floppy of any stripe cease to have any popular meaning? An icon of a printer is useful as long as printers keep looking like the icon. At one time, most printers resembled the top half of a typewriter. Most don't today. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 11:54:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:54:54 -0500 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: On 9/9/07, Allison wrote: > One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC > drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. I'd like to hear more about this, either on-list, if you feel your ideas are fleshed out enough to share widely, or off-list, if you are not as far along with the creative process. Ever since I had a PDT-11 (and let it go to another collector, sadly for me), I've wanted a portable PDP-11. It might or might not be easy (read inexpensive ;-) to implement an 80x24 LCD, some form of 40x25 isn't expensive at all since it only takes a 320x200 mono LCD panel. Of course, one could just have serial out from the basic PDP-11 design, then worry about a portable display as a secondary project. As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most things. CF is easy to interface to, and CF cards 1GB and smaller are quite inexpensive. MMC/SD are also inexpensive and even easier to interface to, with a bit more work on the driver side to man the SPI interface. While textual LCDs are cheaper and easier to interface to, the largest one I've seen is 4x40. A graphical LCD panel with a SED1335 or t6963 of a size of 640x200 would be perfect for 80x25, and, since the common graphical LCD controllers are well documented, not difficult to talk to. One could either attach the graphical display right to the T-11 bus as a peripheral and do all the work in PDP-11 software, or hang a microcontroller off of the T-11 via serial, and write some microcontroller firmware to turn the LCD into an ANSI terminal. Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I don't see that as a fatal flaw. So, Allison, does any of this sound like what you had in mind, or am I going off in an entirely different direction? -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:09:59 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:09:59 +0200 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:33:39 +0200> From: cc at corti-net.de> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Does anyone use RT-11?> > On Sun, 9 Sep 2007, Jerome H. Fine wrote:> > Yes that seems to be the goal, but what will you do with> > RT-11 at that point? If playing games is the objective,> > then RT-11 is not really being used except to start the> > process.> > I do this on our 11/10 with VT11/VR17 to play lunar lander (the visitors > and especially children like it!).> > > Based on the few responses, I guess that no one is writing> > any programs, let alone modifying any utilities. And almost> > certainly, no one seems to be modifying device drivers or> > the operating system itself. If anyone is actually interested> > in that aspect, please let me know.> > Don't say that. My "main" PDP11 in our museum is a 11/34 with all sorts of > peripherals. I've built a small interface to attach a PC to a DR11-C and > wrote a RT-11 device driver (works in FB and XM). On the PC side I have > virtual disk images of various sizes (up to 65536 RT-11 blocks) and on the > RT-11 side I have up to eight devices that map to these disk images. > Although the data path between the 11 and the PC is only 8 bits (I was too > lazy to make it 16 bits, that would have required two latches and logic > for multiplexing/demultiplexing) I achieve data rates of about 70kB/s. I > can transfer whole RK05 disk images in less than one minute (that's btw. > the reason why I built this interface) with COPY/DEV (in both directions).> And I can boot from the virtual disk...> The project isn't finished yet (no time, other projects, ...). The > protocol needs to be more robust and fault tolerant, and I need to > implement some kind of timeouts on both sides.> > Ah, almost forgot that: Since there is no official way to format DECtapes > under RT-11, I've enhanced the modified TC11 formatter from the spring '76 > sigtape to be verbose and tell the user what to do. I think this counts as > "modifying utilities", doesn't it? :-)> > Christian That DR11-C interface sounds very interesting Christian. Do you happen to have a webpage on that, or (brief) descriptions? Would love to see and try that here! - Henk www.pdp-11.nl From cc at corti-net.de Mon Sep 10 12:12:15 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:12:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? No, because a printer is called 'imprimante' in French :-)) Christian From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:20:27 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:20:27 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Rob wrote: > On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require literacy. The symbols in Chinese no longer resemble the concepts behind them in any recognisable way, but it is the single biggest single-language nation on the planet. Their literally hundreds of dissimilar mutually-unintelligible dialects and tongues are united by a single written language, one which has no connection with the spoken forms, which is based on pictograms. It *works.* > No wonder mass-market PCs are produced with *colour coded* connectors, > and mass-market peripherals are issued with matching coloured plugs... That is a good plan, I must concede. Unless, of course, you're colour-blind. > > Stop being so provincial! > > Hey, we ruled half the world at one point... Long before my parents were born, or, I suspect, my grandparents, so not terribly relevant now! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:22:35 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:22:35 +0100 Subject: PS/2 webserver Message-ID: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> Merely curious. Does anyone know of any IBM PS/2 machines - the proper Microchannel ones - hosting websites today? I know of a number of very old Macs doing so, including a Mac Plus with a website on floppy, machines running System 6 and AU/X. I've even visited a website hosted on a Commodore 64, I seem to recall. But never a PS/2 one. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 10 12:37:09 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:37:09 -0600 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it > doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to > design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so > that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) > There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I > don't see that as a fatal flaw. Why not just use the J-11, and have it all ? From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:39:24 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:39:24 +0200 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> Message-ID: Sorry all, this is my first post to the list after changing from employer.It seems that the settings in Outlook Express are not that fantastic to generate a decent reply :-( I seem to be able to post to the list again. Thanks Jay! A quick update ... I moved to a new job in another company. That means that my oce.nl or oce.com mail account is now unreachable. The new job is great, but one thing I already miss is the very nice capability to scan documents. I have setup a hotmail account, so no more company footers :-) - Henk, www.pdp-11.nl From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:43:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:43:52 -0500 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> References: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 9/10/07, e.stiebler wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it > > doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to > > design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so > > that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) > > There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I > > don't see that as a fatal flaw. > > Why not just use the J-11, and have it all ? I would think that for one thing, T-11 chips are much easier to find than J-11 chips - DEC used the T-11 in a variety of peripheral cards and terminals, and such. I personally probably have half-a-dozen T-11 chips, and two J-11 chips (one Pro380 and one KDJ11 board). If course, if a project were to erupt that was some form of portable J-11 design w/1MB or more of SRAM and some local mass storage, I would certainly strongly consider building one, even if I had to borrow a J-11 chip from one of my two sources. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 00:53:47 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:53:47 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Merely curious. Does anyone know of any IBM PS/2 machines - the proper > Microchannel ones - hosting websites today? > > I know of a number of very old Macs doing so, including a Mac Plus > with a website on floppy, machines running System 6 and AU/X. I've > even visited a website hosted on a Commodore 64, I seem to recall. > > But never a PS/2 one. It's down at the moment, but anchor.ikickass.org is a PS/2 Model 95. Peace... Sridhar From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 10 13:18:26 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:18:26 -0600 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: References: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46E58A72.8040100@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > If course, if a project were to erupt that was some form of portable > J-11 design w/1MB or more of SRAM and some local mass storage, I would > certainly strongly consider building one, even if I had to borrow a > J-11 chip from one of my two sources. But the j-11 are alos very easy to get, as a lot 11/73 boards are showing even on ebay for dirt cheap. And a SBC-11-+++ would be also a nice project, getting SCSI or IDE, 4 MBytes of ram, 100 mbit ethernet, ... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:14:37 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:14:37 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > On 10/09/07, Rob wrote: >> On 10/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee >>> hardware? >> Hmm... I've been mystified by strange symbols above connectors on the >> backs of machines for a while now... Especially when it's from a >> manufacturer I don't usually deal with. At least my own interest, the >> BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. > > The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. I suspect it was more that the primary market was education, so it made sense to be as user-friendly as possible by stating exactly what each port was. > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French to get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. Given that manuals and software have to be regionalised for the intended market, it hardly seems much effort on the part of the manufacturer to issue case decals that are also regionalised. There seems little excuse for a pictogram that might be ambiguous in *all* languages just because the manufacturer was lazy or was trying to save a few pennies. > What if it were clearly labelled in Russian? Or Arabic? Or Chinese? > > No bally use at all. I suspect the number of times that a person is plonked in front of an alien machine with absolutely no knowledge of the written language of the country from which the machine is from is pretty small. In most cases it would only happen when the person is visiting a foreign country, and in that case you'd expect them to be making an effort to understand the language anyway. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 13:23:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070910112115.Y23141@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. THAT is a printer?? I thought that it was an external early modem. The Chinese character WOULD work as well for me. > Stop being so provincial! Sorry. Here in the colonies, we've buggered up a lot of what could have been simple, and use some hardly recognizable icons. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 10 13:31:58 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:31:58 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > On 10/09/2007, Rob wrote: > > On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > literacy. A pictogram which is not obviously a representation of it's target is not a pictogram, it's a symbol. Learning to associate a symbol with it's meaning is pretty much the definition of literacy. The argument is that due to their diversity, inconsistency, and non-pictogram-ness (sorry), these symbols haven't solved anything (other than being politically correct in not giving priority to one culture's natural language), they've just become a new obscure language to learn. (A language which as someone else pointed out, is unsearchable, at least for the time being.) > The symbols in Chinese no longer resemble the concepts behind them in > any recognisable way, but it is the single biggest single-language > nation on the planet. Their literally hundreds of dissimilar > mutually-unintelligible dialects and tongues are united by a single > written language, one which has no connection with the spoken forms, > which is based on pictograms. I would argue that your example of written Chinese actually makes the opposite point to your intent: one has to be literate in the now arbitrary association of symbols to meaning to understand the symbols. It may be freed from a spoken form but that's not the issue, the arbitrariness or non-intuitive-ness of the association is. To try to bring this back on-topic, I was hoping somebody would weigh in with 'earliest' examples of 0/1 on IBM equipment, which might be argued to be where the whole trend started. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:28:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:28:34 +0100 Subject: Motorola Exormacs - disk cable Message-ID: <46E58CD2.3000400@yahoo.co.uk> We've just acquired a Motorola Exormacs system, which is sadly without its floppy drive cable (40 pins on the Exormacs side, 50 on the 8" floppy unit (Exordrive III I believe). I suspect the floppy side is just straight-through to the drives, but can anyone confirm that, and does anyone know the pinout on the system unit side of things? Worst-case we'll have to reverse engineer it, but maybe someone knows (we've got no floppies for the system and no useful manuals unfortunately) cheers Jules From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 10 04:11:33 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:11:33 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46DC3F48.5070505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <01fc01c7ede2$9b90fa30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46DC3F48.5070505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709101011.33348.gordon@gjcp.net> On Monday 03 September 2007 18:07:20 Jules Richardson wrote: > Quite by chance I stumbled across an ETI magazine today which announced the > system on the front cover as the "ETI Triton"; I didn't have time to read > the article itself, but found some more literature which said that the > designer created the machine for "Transam and ETI", as though it were some > sort of joint venture. Well they did that with Powertran a lot. In particular, the Powertran synthesizers and effects were published as ETI articles. I really really wanted a Transcendent 2000 when they came out first and I was just a little geeklet. Many years (>20) later, I got hold of one that a friend of mine had been given and had never got to work properly. A quick Goooooooooogle turned up scans of the original ETI article pages, with the construction and setup details and circuits. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 13:18:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:18:17 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO6000ZS05SW414@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:54:54 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/9/07, Allison wrote: >> One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC >> drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. > >I'd like to hear more about this, either on-list, if you feel your >ideas are fleshed out enough to share widely, or off-list, if you are >not as far along with the creative process. I have a lot on paper plus the ever important T-11 manual. However it has stopped at that phase mostly due to other projects having my interest. I did some prototyping a few years back with the T11 to see in in action without a lot of DEC hardware around it. I have that but it was never meant to grow and is only 8KW ram, 8KW Eprom and a DLART for serial IO. Since then I've been doing 8085, Z80, Z280, 6809 and 1802 stuff when not building HF and VHF tranceivers. >Ever since I had a PDT-11 (and let it go to another collector, sadly >for me), I've wanted a portable PDP-11. It might or might not be easy >(read inexpensive ;-) to implement an 80x24 LCD, some form of 40x25 >isn't expensive at all since it only takes a 320x200 mono LCD panel. >Of course, one could just have serial out from the basic PDP-11 >design, then worry about a portable display as a secondary project. The display is really the harder part at least for portability and power consumption. However for this one I was considering packaging along the lines of the Kaypro totables and wall power. Part of this recognizes the T-11 uses a fair amount of power (Z80 NMOS is similar) and most of the parts around it will not be CMOS so battery operation is not easily accomplished. >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most >things. CF is easy to interface to, and CF cards 1GB and smaller are >quite inexpensive. MMC/SD are also inexpensive and even easier to >interface to, with a bit more work on the driver side to man the SPI >interface. None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. >While textual LCDs are cheaper and easier to interface to, the largest >one I've seen is 4x40. A graphical LCD panel with a SED1335 or t6963 >of a size of 640x200 would be perfect for 80x25, and, since the common >graphical LCD controllers are well documented, not difficult to talk >to. One could either attach the graphical display right to the T-11 >bus as a peripheral and do all the work in PDP-11 software, or hang a >microcontroller off of the T-11 via serial, and write some >microcontroller firmware to turn the LCD into an ANSI terminal. I planned on text. However it's possible to get LCDs used for laptops but the logic to drive them is non trivial. >Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it >doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to >design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so >that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) >There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I >don't see that as a fatal flaw. Correct on the OS and software. However the MMU is very buildable and not near as hardware intensive as would seem. For an example look at the T-11 interface in the VT240. It takes a few 16x4 bipolar rams and some loose logic to implement the paging (2 74189, 3 74ls257 and a bit of TTL glue) to make a a compatable (mostly) mapper. One of the things I've given consideration to in recent years is a nonDEC and non *nix OS such as CUBIX as that would translate reasonably from 6908 to PDP-11. This arises from the fact that RT-11 has a very primitive filesystem compared to CP/M and an OS that is not encumbered would be easier to work with. >So, Allison, does any of this sound like what you had in mind, or am I >going off in an entirely different direction? You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in the 7-9" size. Right now it's a static project from the build it perspective but as new ideas surface and other projects supply different expereinces it morphs some. What I'd have built say 6 years ago and noew would be very different. It will eventually get attention as I have parts stored away for it. Allison > >-ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 13:26:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:26:32 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO60029K0JJP3W0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:43:52 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/10/07, e.stiebler wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it >> > doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to >> > design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so >> > that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) >> > There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I >> > don't see that as a fatal flaw. >> >> Why not just use the J-11, and have it all ? > >I would think that for one thing, T-11 chips are much easier to find >than J-11 chips - DEC used the T-11 in a variety of peripheral cards >and terminals, and such. I personally probably have half-a-dozen T-11 >chips, and two J-11 chips (one Pro380 and one KDJ11 board). T-11 is designed along the lines of 8085 or Z280 and far easier to interface than J-11. That and I have a handful of T-11s out of defunct RQDX1s and VT240s. If all else the T11 is 40pin DIP and far easier to remove and socket for wire wrap than the huge J-11. T-11s appeared as loose parts, RQDXn controller, VT240/241, HSC50 KXT-11 and KXT-21 to name a few. For raw volume it outnumbers the J11. Doesn't hurt that all software design work can be done on any PDP11 but does not rely on features not available on most all -11s. > >If course, if a project were to erupt that was some form of portable >J-11 design w/1MB or more of SRAM and some local mass storage, I would >certainly strongly consider building one, even if I had to borrow a >J-11 chip from one of my two sources. >-ethan J11 and 1MB of sram is not battery friendly unless one is willing to invest in a lot of 74HCxx parts and a big battery. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 13:38:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070910113524.M23141@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Rob wrote: > A quick rundown of parallel printer ports here shows: > - a symbol very like the MS word one. > - the word "Parallel" > - a rectangle with a knob on the side with an overlayed square with > equal horizontal lines on it. > - a rectangle with an overlayed square with different length lines > - similar but looks more like paper falling out of a slot > - a rectangle with a corner cut off above a horizontal line Don't forget the "piano" symbol for hardcopy output on IBM flowchart templates. > I couldn't find two that were exactly the same! > No wonder mass-market PCs are produced with *colour coded* connectors, > and mass-market peripherals are issued with matching coloured plugs... Are the COLOR (in the case of USA) coded connectors standardized? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 10 13:42:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:42:12 -0600 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <46E58A72.8040100@e-bbes.com> References: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> <46E58A72.8040100@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46E59004.1040103@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > But the j-11 are alos very easy to get, as a lot 11/73 boards are > showing even on ebay for dirt cheap. And a SBC-11-+++ would be also a > nice project, getting SCSI or IDE, 4 MBytes of ram, 100 mbit ethernet, ... How about a nice PDP-11 for the people that never haver used a PDP-11. As for ebay they start cheap ... what about the last second of bidding. I have dial up -- does this mean I have already lost my bid since they are sitting on a router staight to ebay? Ben alias woodelf From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 10 13:44:10 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:44:10 -0600 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: References: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46E5907A.1050902@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/10/07, e.stiebler wrote: > > I would think that for one thing, T-11 chips are much easier to find > than J-11 chips - DEC used the T-11 in a variety of peripheral cards > and terminals, and such. I personally probably have half-a-dozen T-11 > chips, and two J-11 chips (one Pro380 and one KDJ11 board). Google is a funny thing. Just found my own reply from june 2007: >There is a guy who made his own SBC with a T-11, and even ported Forth >on it. I thought I knew his webpage, but it seems, I lost the bookmark. >But check google groups for "peter mccollum forth t11" and you will find >at least the discussions ... From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 13:49:55 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:49:55 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > literacy. I think you have just made the point you were trying to avoid. You need to learn to associate the pictogram with it's meaning. So it matters not if it is one of a hundred unique visions of an obsolete printer, a pair of parallel lines(which I've also seen) or the sequence of mostly recognisable characters p, r, i, n, t, e and r. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 10 13:53:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:53:18 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910112115.Y23141@shell.lmi.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <20070910112115.Y23141@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46E5929E.5060706@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > The Chinese character WOULD work as well for me. Not realy -- Chinese is still limited in some ways, since the Icons stack on top of each other. >> Stop being so provincial! So how goes life in ROME? Say hi to the Emperor for me. > Sorry. Here in the colonies, we've buggered up a lot of what could have > been simple, and use some hardly recognizable icons. The point is writing is clear for some things. Icons for other things like in schematics. As for windows icons and other things like scroll bars they waste *my* screen space. Ben alias Woodelf Now back to classic computers before we all are fed to the Lions. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 10 13:54:24 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <0JO6000ZS05SW414@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Sep 10, 2007 02:18:17 PM Message-ID: <200709101854.l8AIsPww020566@onyx.spiritone.com> > >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most > >things. CF is easy to interface to, and CF cards 1GB and smaller are > >quite inexpensive. MMC/SD are also inexpensive and even easier to > >interface to, with a bit more work on the driver side to man the SPI > >interface. > > None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE > using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. I believe converters for IDE to CF cards are pretty cheap, so if you have IDE, you effectively have CF. > You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that > but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. You might want to look at some of the "Laptops" that others have built for things such as the Amiga. It might not be as difficult as you might think. > The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), > Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) > and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool > to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal > logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in > the 7-9" size. > > Right now it's a static project from the build it perspective but > as new ideas surface and other projects supply different expereinces > it morphs some. What I'd have built say 6 years ago and noew would > be very different. It will eventually get attention as I have parts > stored away for it. Sounds fun. Zane From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 13:55:56 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:55:56 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910113524.M23141@shell.lmi.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <20070910113524.M23141@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709101155kfc2923eoc95700b31e3c5f9d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Don't forget the "piano" symbol for hardcopy output on IBM flowchart > templates. Indeed not... I've seen others, and I'm sure there are several more in the house too; those were just the few immediately visible on disconnected machines lying about. > > No wonder mass-market PCs are produced with *colour coded* connectors, > > and mass-market peripherals are issued with matching coloured plugs... > > Are the COLOR (in the case of USA) coded connectors standardized? I have no idea if it's a standard, but where parts I've encountered have been coloured, it's been consistent. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 13:55:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:55:56 -0500 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <0JO6000ZS05SW414@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JO6000ZS05SW414@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 9/10/07, Allison wrote: > > "Ethan Dicks" > > >On 9/9/07, Allison wrote: > >> One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC > >> drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. > > > >I'd like to hear more about this... > > I have a lot on paper plus the ever important T-11 manual. Very handy. > However > it has stopped at that phase mostly due to other projects having > my interest. Fair enough. I think most of us have a variety of projects cluttering our foreground task. > ... only 8KW ram, 8KW Eprom and a DLART for serial IO. Certainly minimal, though today, 28KW of RAM isn't a stretch. > The display is really the harder part at least for portability and power > consumption. However for this one I was considering packaging along > the lines of the Kaypro totables and wall power. Part of this recognizes > the T-11 uses a fair amount of power (Z80 NMOS is similar) and most of > the parts around it will not be CMOS so battery operation is not easily > accomplished. Understandable. > >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most > >things... > > None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE > using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. That's certainly a larger device than I'd envisioned (my initial idea was a "pod" the size of a modem or smaller, with an external display/keyboard/host port). > >While textual LCDs are cheaper and easier to interface to, the largest > >one I've seen is 4x40. A graphical LCD panel with a SED1335 or t6963 > >of a size of 640x200 would be perfect for 80x25... > > I planned on text. However it's possible to get LCDs used for laptops > but the logic to drive them is non trivial. Yes. I have a 640x400 laptop display, with specs, that ran me about $10 a few years back. If I ever decide to learn VHDL, I might try to interface it to my IOB6120, but, yes, it takes a bit of work to talk to those. > >Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it > >doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to > >design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... > > Correct on the OS and software. However the MMU is very buildable > and not near as hardware intensive as would seem. For an example > look at the T-11 interface in the VT240. It takes a few 16x4 > bipolar rams and some loose logic to implement the paging (2 74189, > 3 74ls257 and a bit of TTL glue) to make a a compatable (mostly) mapper. Interesting. I suppose it couldn't be _too_ complicated, then, since it one like it does fit on a few square inches of 11/34 CPU board. I even happen to have a small pad of 74189s. > One of the things I've given consideration to in recent years is a nonDEC > and non *nix OS such as CUBIX as that would translate reasonably from > 6908 to PDP-11. This arises from the fact that RT-11 has a very > primitive filesystem compared to CP/M and an OS that is not encumbered > would be easier to work with. Hmm... from what I've seen of CUBIX, it sounds feasible for a PDP-11 host, and it certainly gets around the issue of what OS to distribute, but I would think that porting CUBIX could be an entirely independent project (focusing on whatever display and mass-storage interfaces are available). > >So, Allison, does any of this sound like what you had in mind... ? > > You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that > but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. I hadn't specifically been requiring a laptop shape, more of a tiny luggable - on the order of one of the modern Tektronix LCD-screen digital scopes. > The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), > Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) > and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool > to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal > logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in > the 7-9" size. OK. I'm not sure I get the "VK170" reference. Is that some sort of DEC or 3rd party embedded product? Thanks for sharing your design ideas. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 14:09:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070910120417.T26091@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French to > get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. It still takes a little time to get used to the 'A' and 'Z' being where the 'Q' and 'W' OUGHTA be. Particularly on an older machine with the key legends worn off. > > What if it were clearly labelled in Russian? Or Arabic? Or Chinese? > > No bally use at all. Think Clint Eastwood in "Firefox" - "You have to think in Russian". Might just as well go with the Disaster Area stunt ship - black on black, with a little black light lighting up. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 14:15:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Motorola Exormacs - disk cable In-Reply-To: <46E58CD2.3000400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46E58CD2.3000400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070910121326.A26091@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > We've just acquired a Motorola Exormacs system, which is sadly without its > floppy drive cable (40 pins on the Exormacs side, 50 on the 8" floppy unit > (Exordrive III I believe). > I suspect the floppy side is just straight-through to the drives, but can > anyone confirm that, and does anyone know the pinout on the system unit side > of things? Better check that! "normal" 5.25" floppy is 34 pin. 40 pin implementations, such as some PS/2s put power on those other 6 pins. 34 to 50 pin cabling information is readily available. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Sep 10 14:15:26 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:15:26 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46E597CE.6080605@compsys.to> >Roger Ivie wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so >> I'm not as conversant with what's out there... > > I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I > never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was > some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the > normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine > was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name was > Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: Jerome Fine replies: I also heard about that system. I received the impression that the fellow was in Australia. The name fits. The requirement (if I remember what I was told) is that the CPU and memory must be placed into ABCD slots - which are standard in the BA23 (the first 3) and BA123 (the first 4) backplanes. Since I have trouble even thinking about using a soldering iron, attempting to set up ABCD slots was just beyond my ability. Now software on RT-11 is a different story for me. But most everyone who reads this is more concerned about hardware than software. As far as I know, the MicroVAX I would have run in a standard VT103 backplane, but modified to support 22 bit addresses. So there may have been a challenge to see if it could be done with the MicroVAX II. Anyone know how many amps that CPU draws on the 5V? With a 16 Amp limit to the 5V and much less on the 12V, the VT103 can't support very much. It was fun to bring in the VT103 (as if it was just a VT100 terminal) and boot RT-11 on the hard disk drive inside. The only concern was to never move the VT103 around while the hard drive was spinning. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Sep 10 14:16:04 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:16:04 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46E597F4.90408@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >I have upgraded backplanes in the past. I found the easiest way to do >it was to use recycled DEC backplane power strips - bits of thin metal >that have a small (pin-sized hole) alternating with a larger hole that >misses the next pin. I recovered some from a PDP-8/L that arrived to >me with broken backplane. DEC used to sell it as a separate item for >customers who were working with foundation modules and such. I don't >know where I'd get it now. > Jerome Fine replies: Since I had never even heard of a DEC power strip, using insulated wire wrap seemed to be the best solution. The solder points stick out a bit. So stripping the wire about 1/8" was about right. Perhaps it was also prudent to pull the insulation back another 1/4" before soldering and then pushing the insulation forward again after making the connection and cooling off. >>... However, an RQDX1,2 >>was out of the question since they require 6 Amps for >>the 5V. An RQDX3 is probably OK when used with a quad >>CPU like the M8189 or the M8190 (since there are no >>boot ROMs on any RQDXn controller). I guess that you >>could type in a boot program (if you don't do it too often) >>using hardware ODT - it takes about 5 minutes. >> >I was already presuming a SCSI interface. > I realize, but most everyone else reading this might not have a SCSI host adapter for the Qbus. I also have a SCSI host adapter for the Qbus and for a time it was the most costly Qbus board that I ever owned. >>Either a dual or a quad KDJ11 can be used. Almost EVERY >>quad KDJ11 is really the same as a PDP-11/83 except for >>the 18 MHz crystal. And since you can't use PMI memory >>without further modification of the first 2 slots to add >>ABCD like the first 3 slots on a BA23, it seems that you >>are stuck with an ordinary PDP-11/73. >> >True enough. I was more thinking of the advanced processors (11/93?) >for any onboard memory, not for PMI. > >From my point of view, the PDP-11/93 is vastly over rated and even more so over priced. On the other hand, for the VT103, the PDP-11/93 actually makes a lot of sense when you are looking at only 4 quad backplane slots and have an important project that needs 5 quad slots with a normal CPU and separate memory. But a BA23 box is not that much bigger and heavier if more than 4 quad slots are essential. As for the speed of the PDP-11/93, when I did buy one to sell to a customer over 10 years ago, I did a few benchmarks. For pure CPU speed, the PDP-11/93 is about 10% faster than the PDP-11/83 which agrees with the crystal of 20 MHz vs 10 MHz, respectively. However, the PDP-11/83 is only about 35% faster than the quad PDP-11/73 (M8190) which has a 15 MHz crystal and uses normal memory. Add PMI memory to the PDP-11/73 (almost all quad PDP-11/73 CPUs are able to handle this) and the speed difference is only about 15% - which means that the PMI memory speeds up a PDP-11/73 by about 20%. At one point, PMI memory demand was so low that it sold for less than normal Qbus memory. Shows what people really know. >>Most VT103 systems came with a paddle card that was intended >>to be used with a DLV11-J and a dual PDP-11 Qbus card. The >>paddle card connected the terminal and keyboard to the 4th >>channel on the DLV11-J that was then strapped as consol >>and the normal 25 pin serial connector on the back could >>then be connected to a second serial channel on the DLV11-J >>(and probably sent to a serial line printer). >> >I do not have this card, but do know about it, and have been looking >for one, casually, for 20 years. > I have one which I would gladly trade if someone was truly interested in RT-11 software. Eventually I will need to abandon my collection, so ... >>Since both replaceable media drives can also >>be attached to a PC running E11... >> >We work in different worlds... I'd be doing any off-line prep work >with Simh and Linux. > Since E11 can also run on Linux, I should consider moving. For some of my work, speed is important - sieving for prime numbers. E11 is MUCH, MUCH faster than Simh. But maybe someone would be interested in a faster drive interface for Simh. The HD: drive under E11 would probably be ideal for emulation by Simh and that would mean the the RT-11 device driver would work under Simh as well. The interface is almost trivial. Does anyone want the details? >>Can I answer any other questions? >> >Since I'm not likely to be attempting this for a year or two (after >getting back from another winter at Pole), I'll probably ask questions >as they come up. For now, though, I can easily put together a KDF11 >system, so I'll probably start there. I was just interested in what I >might need to put together a SCSI-based KDJ11 system with 4MB. > Just add a hard drive and a DLV11-J with the M8186. With a quad M8189, you already have 2 serial ports. Probably best in that case to use the BA23 cabinet kit (if you have one) for the serial ports. Using the paddle board with an M8189 might be a problem since I seem to remember that the ports used with the paddle board did not use the baud rate selection on the DLV11-J but rather the baud rate was selected by the VT103. How many 4 MB Qbus memory cards do you have? Do you have any PMI Qbus memory cards? Christlen made a 4 MB PMI board, but by the time I became interested, it was not possible to justify the expense. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 14:18:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. I went looking for an impact printer at the college. There were none. While it may be "distictive" to US, in another few years, we're going to be the only ones who know what one looks like. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 14:08:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:08:27 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <46E533BB.18673.343CD13D@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 19:12, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? > > No, because a printer is called 'imprimante' in French :-)) Ah, then the keyboard is called "Nihil Obstat"? :) Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 14:26:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:26:33 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> On Sep 10, 2007, at 3:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more >> distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > I went looking for an impact printer at the college. There were none. > While it may be "distictive" to US, in another few years, we're > going to > be the only ones who know what one looks like. Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how huge the impact printer business is in certain indusries such as auto parts stores and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I buy a part for a car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that technology...it could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them any trouble. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 14:33:13 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:33:13 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709101233l39ed0c98x7aed658fe2681905@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how huge the impact > printer business is in certain indusries such as auto parts stores > and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I buy a part for a > car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. > > I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that technology...it > could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them any trouble. > Most of the businesses I dealt with had them for one reason: Multi-part forms..... Sometimes you need assurance that a copy actually is a copy.. Rob From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 14:37:17 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Impact printers (was: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <153193.13635.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > I went looking for an impact printer at the > college. There were none. > Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how > huge the impact > printer business is in certain indusries such as > auto parts stores > and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I > buy a part for a > car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. > > I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that > technology...it > could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them > any trouble. The technology does "just work". It's simple, reliable, works very easily with preprinted forms, it's easy to maintain, easy to make multiple copies with carbons, handles labels and weird print media (window stickers, etc) well, and many other niceties. For auto repair centers, they hold up very well to a grimy environment - the pin fed paper doesn't need to be picked up with easily gunked up rubber rollers, the paper path is typically simple, etc. And not just auto centers use impact printers. The big, high end ones are found in many places, printing reports, labels, checks, report cards, etc. I am still maintaining Printronix P600 matrix line printers, as well as other, newer Printronix machines. Dataproducts band printers and Fujitsu band printers are still out there as well. IBM, Lexmark, OkiData, and other small dot matrix printers are still in service in many places too. Printronix still makes high end matrix line printers, and OkiData dot matrix printers now have USB ports. They're not gone, they've just gone into hiding :) -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:31:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:31:56 +0100 Subject: Motorola Exormacs - disk cable In-Reply-To: <20070910121326.A26091@shell.lmi.net> References: <46E58CD2.3000400@yahoo.co.uk> <20070910121326.A26091@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46E59BAC.6010304@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> We've just acquired a Motorola Exormacs system, which is sadly without its >> floppy drive cable (40 pins on the Exormacs side, 50 on the 8" floppy unit >> (Exordrive III I believe). >> I suspect the floppy side is just straight-through to the drives, but can >> anyone confirm that, and does anyone know the pinout on the system unit side >> of things? > > Better check that! > "normal" 5.25" floppy is 34 pin. 40 pin implementations, such as some > PS/2s put power on those other 6 pins. Aha - no, I merely meant that the cable between the drives (8") and the back of the disk cabinet is *probably* straight-through. How it's wired between the 40 pin connector on the Exormacs itself and the 50 pin connector on the drive cab is a complete unknown (to us). Hopefully someone knows; failing that it's *probably* a recognised FDC in the system unit and so will be traceable. I'll do some more digging inside the machine if needs be, but I'm sure someone on here has mentioned that they have an Exormacs machine in the past... Of course there's a question of how usable it may be given the absence of any media; I'm not sure how much was in ROM on these machines and how much was booted from floppy. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:35:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:35:21 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709101233l39ed0c98x7aed658fe2681905@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> <2f806cd70709101233l39ed0c98x7aed658fe2681905@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E59C79.7010602@yahoo.co.uk> Rob wrote: > On 10/09/2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how huge the impact >> printer business is in certain indusries such as auto parts stores >> and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I buy a part for a >> car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. >> >> I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that technology...it >> could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them any trouble. >> > > Most of the businesses I dealt with had them for one reason: > Multi-part forms..... Sometimes you need assurance that a copy > actually is a copy.. Valid point. I suspect impact printers handle a dirty / dusty environment a heck of a lot better than inkjets or lasers too. Plus given the high cost of toner / cartridges, there's perhaps still some cost savings in the old impacts where the line of work simply doesn't *need* to use anything else. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 14:52:49 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:52:49 -0700 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid In-Reply-To: <46D93DFD.30048.5850AA1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46D93BEF.311.57D0200@cclist.sydex.com> <46D93DFD.30048.5850AA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90709101252m24a9cea0r932b9aa331e9b1bf@mail.gmail.com> On 9/1/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Sep 2007 at 10:16, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > What do you think? Either surplus OSU equipment or possibly from the > > HP Corvallis facility? > > Never mind--it's the HP stuff as described by the listing. I needed > another cup of coffee... > ~Only~ $35K http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=smi26204 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 10 15:08:02 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:08:02 -0600 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:52:49 -0700. <1e1fc3e90709101252m24a9cea0r932b9aa331e9b1bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1e1fc3e90709101252m24a9cea0r932b9aa331e9b1bf at mail.gmail.com>, "Glen Slick" writes: > ~Only~ $35K > http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=smi26204 Its the wafer equipment that's driving the price, not the VAXes. You can always contact the seller directly and ask if the vaxes can be listed separately. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 10 15:12:00 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:12:00 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <200709072349.03888.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709101612.01230.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 09 September 2007 23:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 7, 2007, at 11:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going > > there (RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their > > "network" out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my > > case is none.I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more > > cards, and somehow or other make it work. > > They were RS422 if memory serves. Probably. I never could keep those straight. I remember reading up on it at the time and that it was some kind of differential-current interface, and I might even have the datasheets for the chips they used, though heaven only knows where I'd get one if I needed one (probably ask on this list :-). > I worked at a computer store when I was in high school, from 1984 to > 1986...we used one of those > Televideo distributed CP/M-ish systems (810?) > there, for store operations/POS/inventory stuff. It worked very well and > was reliable, but it wasn't very fast. Our POS and inventory system was > written in CBASIC-80. It was good stuff. The difficulty I see is that if I were to ever want to try and use one of those I'd have to find hardware that would talk to it. Though I *did* get a hold of an ISA card with a boot rom that wanted to talk to that. I haven't the assembly skills to do a dump of it and see what it's trying for, but apparently it wants to load some file from the other end and of course isn't finding it. I guess if I'm ever gonna do anything with that box I'm gonna have to find some more TeleVideo hardware. Got a 40M _eight inch_ HD in it, along with a tape drive, I forget what kind but the book tells me that it stores a whopping 14MB. :-) The HD is belt-driven, and that slipping was I think one of the difficulties I was having the last time I tried to boot the machine. Don Maslin (sp?) sent me another belt, but I never got around to putting it in there. Too bad those aren't rs232 ports, that box could be useful for some things even if I never went anywhere near the original application. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 10 15:15:33 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:15:33 -0400 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070909160807.03ac42f8@mail.30below.com> References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070909160807.03ac42f8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200709101615.33301.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 09 September 2007 16:22, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Why the worry about never knowing what you're clicking on? If > >you're worried about viruses, you're using a computing platform > >that's unsuitable for networked applications. > > Aren't we all? [[ read: who here actually read the list on their OS/2, VMS, > MVS/XA, etc. machines? IINM, there are a few viruses for MacOS, Linux & > friends... and at least a proof-of concept boot-sector virus written in x86 > assembly that can infect anything running x86 no matter what OS, I > believe... ]] Linux here, and I'm not worried about it, but also don't care to waste my time with following links to I know not what... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 10 15:24:01 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:24:01 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <0JO400AU8AF10K19@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JO400AU8AF10K19@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200709101624.02055.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 09 September 2007 16:04, Allison wrote: > >A while back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a box" > >systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I think > > that's the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it. > > Multibus, very nice bus and expensive cards. I have a few multibus cards. > Intel used it in their MDS800 and a few otehrs as well. I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike me as being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-) > >Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going there > >(RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their "network" > >out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case is > > none. I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more cards, > > and somehow or other make it work. > > > >And speaking of the networking aspect of it, do any of you guys know how > > they did it? I recall one time getting a glimpse of some system or other > > that was S-100 but also had a set of connectors at thet op of each card, > > which is what they used for their inter-processor linking rather than > > trying to push it through the bus. The reason for this is not apparent > > to me. > > Many ways to do it, using a commmon port or a pool of common memory for > in box networking and serial ports as well. There were also ARCnet, pre > Ethernet and even Ethernet. I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade show, and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace, though I don't forsee me ever using them. > >I've also seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was supposed > > to work through serial ports, which pretty many machines had, althogh > > they appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to wire-OR RS232 > > signals, which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. And what > > software support there was for this wasn't real apparent. > > That was a poor mans networking. Basically the serial ports were used as > CD/CSMA bus and there was some protocal like Ethernet but slower and could > use the usually common async chips. I have such a net going for my CP/M > crates and all. What does that take on the software side of things? > >I dunno, I've just got this fascination for assorted 8-bit parts talking > > to each other through some smallish number of wires, I guess it's easier > > to deal with than some of the big iron you guys handle regularly, which > > I can't afford to go get never mind housing. And I've seen multiple > > processors used in stuff already, as in some musical equipment that > > passed "event information" from one chip to the next with only a couple > > of pins, or the daisywheel printer that had _four_ 804x procesors in it > > for different functions. > > This is not a new thing. Nope. It's just my particular fascination these days. And probably a lot easier to deal with than lots of big iron. :-) > >TurboDOS is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's > > too much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software, > > stuff I'd leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same old > > Console / Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to something > > different or unique. I found the same thing to be the case when I looked > > at FORTH, too much of the usual stuff, and that was supposed to have > > been used in some control applications? I must've missed something > > there... > > ???? Whats the question or point? Just that I'd like to see some stuff that isn't oriented that way. You have a SBC, you obviously need some way to talk to it, but the standard "console" stuff gets a little old, I probably don't want to hook a printer up to it, and may not even want a disk drive of any sort, depending on what I wanna do with it. I'm up for exploring some alternative approaches to doing things. Unfortunately the embedded stuff that's out there doesn't satisfy too often, the design being too specific to the app, source code not available, etc. I'm thinking that it should be possible to have some sort of a more generalized framework to hang things on, and then you could optimize it for specific uses, or expand it in different directions. Even from the earliest days "personal" computers all seemed to take pretty much the same approach to things... I realized in other messaging a while back that it's been well over a year since I fired up a soldering iron, and this is a bad thing. :-) And even then, it was a matter of scrapping stuff, not building anything new and interesting. I need to get out of that particular rut and get back to it, or there's no point to all those parts I've been scrounging for decades. Maybe one of these days I will... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 15:51:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:51:12 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709101624.02055.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0JO400AU8AF10K19@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <200709101624.02055.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E54BD0.18775.349AE246@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 16:24, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike me as > being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-) For the purist, Multibus has a lot more going for it than any of the "hobbyist" buses. If you look at the signal layout, it appears that some thought actually went into the design. AFAIK, Multibus cards in some incarnation are still being produced or at least sold. And the MDS-800 was built like a battleship. re: CP/M Networking: > What does that take on the software side of things? A CP/M add-on called CP/NET. The downside is that it takes valuable memory. PC's had a number of "cheap" networking setups. I've got one here called "The $25 Network", basically run through serial (maybe parallel) ports. There were others, some with low-cost cards, such as "The Invisible Network". I wonder if a ring could be set up using the old DOS Interlink. MS-DOS has had some flavor of networking "hooks" for a very long time. CD-ROM access is implemented as a networked device. I've implemented a number of foreign filesystem drivers using networking where file naming conventions or oddball block sizes weren't amenable to normal DOS filesystem conventions. Cheers, Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Sep 10 15:53:08 2007 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 22:53:08 +0200 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> References: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070910205308.GA5101@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 03:26:33PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 10, 2007, at 3:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > >>distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > > >I went looking for an impact printer at the college. There were none. > >While it may be "distictive" to US, in another few years, we're > >going to > >be the only ones who know what one looks like. > > Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how huge the impact > printer business is in certain indusries such as auto parts stores > and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I buy a part for a > car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. > > I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that technology...it > could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them any trouble. Try getting a (real) carbon copy with an inkjet or a laser ... and yes, the ability to print several forms with identical contents is important in some places (one for the customer, one for the archive, one for the guy handing out the parts from the warehouse, ...). Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 16:16:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:16:52 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910205308.GA5101@thangorodrim.de> References: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com>, <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com>, <20070910205308.GA5101@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <46E551D4.1979.34B26122@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 22:53, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Try getting a (real) carbon copy with an inkjet or a laser ... > and yes, the ability to print several forms with identical contents is > important in some places (one for the customer, one for the archive, one > for the guy handing out the parts from the warehouse, ...). Some operations required (may still require) forms produced in triplicate and not simply copied. The real estate title business used to be that way, though I suspect it doesn't now. What raised my eyebrows were the extra-wide carriage (i.e. 3-4 feet) multiple-headed Diablo daisywheels used in banks. Or so I was told when I saw one in a surplus dealer's store and asked about it. I still use a typewriter (Selectric III) for filling in forms and addressing envelopes. It's best for me--my handwriting is atrocious and block printing just doesn't seem like something an adult should be doing on correspondence. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 17:21:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:21:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 10, 7 03:32:18 pm Message-ID: > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? I thought it was actually 'Imprimante' but anyway... > > Probably not. > > What if it were clearly labelled in Russian? Or Arabic? Or Chinese? > > No bally use at all. Yes it darn well is..... There exist these wonderful things called 'foreign language dictionaries' that I cna look up said words in (and for the record, I have managed to use a Russian dictionary to =figrue out the repair manual for a Russian camera). Or, if I can't use, say., a Chinese dictionary, there are plenty of people who speak both Chinese and English and who could help me by translating the 'words' on the back of my machine. The problem with the icons is that they're not universal. If I can't find the manual for whatever I am working on, there's no 'dictionary' I can look them up in. Finding a native speaker of the language of the country where the machine was made (or intended to be sold) won't help. I've had electornic devices with the connectors/controlls labelled in French, German, Russian, and problaby several other languages. None has caused me any problems -- unlike those darn icons. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 17:28:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:28:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 10, 7 06:20:27 pm Message-ID: > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > literacy. Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer is totally beyond me... If you have to learn that $icon means 'connect printer cable here' you can equally easilly learn that you connect said cable to a connector labelled wit hte string of chracters 'printer'. Or 'imprimante'. Or 'drucker' or whatver it is in any other langage. Am English-language manual fro a French device could quite easliy contain the statement 'Connect the parellel printer cable to the 25 pin socket labelled 'imprimante'' . That would be as easy to follow as using the icon, with the benefit that if the manual got lost, a French-English dictionary would explain the use of that connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 17:13:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:13:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 9, 7 08:02:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Sep 2007 at 16:04, woodelf wrote: > > > But the problem with Icons is that they are culture specfic. > > + This may be a FAN in the USA. > > V This is a FAN in Japan. > > > This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/. > > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee > hardware? If you mean IBM-compatible, then the IBM monitors, right back to the 5151 (original MDA monitor) had the 'sun' for brightness and the 'half moon' for contrast. THe PC/AT had icons on the front of the case. The hard disk LED has a 'drum store'-like symbol above it (the one you'd use in flowcharting for a disk/drum operation), the power-on LED has a 'light bulb' icon and the keylock has the open and close padlock icons (normally called the 'oil can' and 'handbag' over here :-)) > > I have to admit that I'm another one who's mystified by icons; unless > they're part of some very specialized application. Such as in You are not alone. > musical transcription software, where an eighth note (quaver for you > in the UK) means just that--to write it out in words would take > longer to interpret than "You want an eighth note? Just click on the > eighth note." "Sixty-fourth note" or "hemidemisemiquaver" is just > too cumbersome. Yes, but musical notation is, AFAIK, pretty much standardised, and the icons used in such a program are those used on printes sheet music too. Similarly I'd have no problem with an electronic CAD program that let me choose a resistor by clicking on an icon that looked like --/\/\/-- . That is one of the standard symbols for such a component, understood almost universally. But this is not the case with some of the other icons I see on PC cases. Darn it, different manufucaturers seem to use similar, but different-in-detail icons for serial and parallel ports... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 17:54:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:54:45 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 9, 7 08:02:57 pm, Message-ID: <46E568C5.19558.350BFD63@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 23:13, Tony Duell wrote: > If you mean IBM-compatible, then the IBM monitors, right back to the 5151 > (original MDA monitor) had the 'sun' for brightness and the 'half moon' > for contrast. I remember that and also that it didn't seem strange to me. Were there icons on the 5100 cable fittings or controls? Cheers, Chuck From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Sep 10 18:00:13 2007 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:00:13 -0600 Subject: Apple boot disks? In-Reply-To: <30904C61-CEAD-4723-BEEC-5823E39BC2A3@neurotica.com> References: <30904C61-CEAD-4723-BEEC-5823E39BC2A3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46E5CC7D.7060107@Rikers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > Is there anyone here with a running Apple ][-class system who would be > willing to cut some boot floppies of Apple DOS 3.3 and/or ProDOS and > send them to me? I finally got a good composite video monitor and I'm > in need of a diversion. This would be for a ][+ and a //e. If you have a serial card (like the apple super serial card) you can boot the machine over serial and image over a boot disk to use later. look for ADT in the various versions. Here's one for that handles other prodos devices too: http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/ In short, you hook up another computer to the serial card. you enter IN#2 so that you can control the machine over serial, then you send a text file with the ADT apple app over which enters itself in hex in the apple debugger. Note: this can also be done over an audio link as if you were a cassette loader. I've not tried this. The serial version has worked well for me. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 18:12:27 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:12:27 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: Message-ID: <006201c7f400$0f87e4d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > PE (Practical Electorncc) 'CHAMP' system, in 1977 or so. It >was built on stribboard (and IC postion layouts were given, but >you had to work out where to run the wires from the shcematic). >As was the assembly listing of the monitor ROM. A couple of years later they produced the "System 68", a 6800 based machine constructed on Eurocard sized PCBs (though using an edge connector rather than a DIN-whatever connector). IIRC circuit diagrams and PCB layouts were provided, along with a full listing of the system monitor program. You could even buy ready made PCBs (and kits of parts?) from a little company called "Newbury Data"....they actually had an office a couple of miles down the road from here at the time. Not sure whether ETI published the PCB layout for the "Triton" (I'm pretty sure they didn't, it was a fairly large, through hole plated PCB), but they sure publisged the schematics and monitor listings. Then there was the UK101.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 18:21:17 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:21:17 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: Message-ID: <006701c7f401$49ed46a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > There's at least the Janus card, which implements a basic Atari ST >on an ISA board ... That name sounds familiar, it's likely the one I was thinking of. One of my friends has one (the one I sold all my ST gear to around '92/'92 as it happens) but even though he's mentioned the name to me several times I'm a bit hazy on it. For some reason "Spectrum" or some (probably incredibly vaguely) similar sounding name also lingers at the back of my mind.... > .... i own the 68000 version, but it seems, there was an 68020 >version available too. I *think* there may also be a "TT-on-a-card"....but don't quote me on that (I've never checked). > A DOS based driver is available, that handles all the I/O handling via >the PC. I always wanted to get that driver ported to OS/2 (running Atari >SW in a OS/2 PM-Window is definitely amazing :)), but never got any >technical information ... I've toyed with the idea of getting one of these cards on several occasions, but since the drivers won't run under NT based operating systems they're not of any use to me whatsoever. :-( TTFN - Pete. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 18:22:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:22:31 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <006201c7f400$0f87e4d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <006201c7f400$0f87e4d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46E5D1B7.4080805@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: [System 68] > IIRC circuit diagrams and PCB layouts were provided, along with a full > listing of the system monitor program. That latter's the important bit; there are just too many computing-related projects in magazines of old for which the software / firmware had to be sent away for - and of course whilst the magazines (and hence schematics) survive, the code which they ran has typically long since gone :-( > You could even buy ready made > PCBs (and kits of parts?) from a little company called "Newbury > Data" Hmm, that name rings a bell for some reason. > Not sure whether ETI published the PCB layout for the "Triton" (I'm > pretty sure they didn't, it was a fairly large, through hole plated > PCB), but they sure publisged the schematics and monitor listings. I'll have a look if I remember; I think we've got a pretty comprehensive set of ETIs from around that period. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 18:38:49 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:38:49 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: Message-ID: <008401c7f403$bd67bc80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an >ISA card. Never seen it, though. There was also an Atari Jaguar on an PCI card, Creative Labs' "Jaguar Blaster". They seem to be pretty thin on the ground though, I'd love to get one.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 18:46:14 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:46:14 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: Message-ID: <008b01c7f404$d940fd30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Actually, thinking about it, ISTR that the "Jaguar Blaster" never made it to market (despite being demoed at several electronics shows). Which would certainly explain their scarcity, LOL. Anyone know for sure? TTFN - Pete. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 18:52:49 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:52:49 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E5D8D1.60400@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an ISA card. Never > seen it, though Looking at a photo of one of mine (the one with the additional I/O controller and Acorn bus connector), it seems to be an ARM2 CPU - not an ARM1 as I'd remembered. (At least Google gives the impression that the VL-2333 chip is a second-generation). I think I even have software for it. Unfortunately I'm not sure that I have the firmware, which makes it a little bit useless :-) (Given that it seems to use a standard TUBE ULA to communicate with the ISA bus, I suppose there's a very slim chance that it'll work with Acorn's 'Brazil' ROMs from some of their other early/dev hardware, but I wouldn't hold my breath...) From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 19:04:21 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:04:21 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c7f407$4e2a9370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls >are a thing of the past.... Amen to that. Many devices nowadays are labelled with what appear to be heiroglyphics.... >....While they were at it, designers decided that it >would be a good idea for power indicators to light up >when something is off, and go out when it's on.... First time I encountered that little doozy was with the tuner on my hi-fi, that would have been around 1987ish. And we're talking a ?250 (~$500) tuner here, not some cheap tat.... >....Or how about a stereo with an animated "attract >mode" when off? That sort of stuff drives me up the wall. My ex-girlfriend has a stereo (Toshiba I think) with that wonderful feature too....hey, you can even play games ot it!!!! 8-| TTFN - Pete. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:27:33 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:27:33 +0100 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > Merely curious. Does anyone know of any IBM PS/2 machines - the proper > > Microchannel ones - hosting websites today? > > > > I know of a number of very old Macs doing so, including a Mac Plus > > with a website on floppy, machines running System 6 and AU/X. I've > > even visited a website hosted on a Commodore 64, I seem to recall. > > > > But never a PS/2 one. > > It's down at the moment, but anchor.ikickass.org is a PS/2 Model 95. Cheers for that! M95, eh? That's quite a modern one, isn't it - a 486 or even a Pentium? I am considering trying to put my old Model 80-A21 - once the LAN server on my home net - on the Web as a webserver. I like the idea of a webserver that is significantly older than the Web itself. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:30:11 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:30:11 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E5D8D1.60400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46E5D8D1.60400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0709101730i21f8ea35qb9a2f0392d42a553@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an ISA card. Never > > seen it, though > > Looking at a photo of one of mine (the one with the additional I/O controller > and Acorn bus connector), it seems to be an ARM2 CPU - not an ARM1 as I'd > remembered. (At least Google gives the impression that the VL-2333 chip is a > second-generation). > > I think I even have software for it. Unfortunately I'm not sure that I have > the firmware, which makes it a little bit useless :-) (Given that it seems to > use a standard TUBE ULA to communicate with the ISA bus, I suppose there's a > very slim chance that it'll work with Acorn's 'Brazil' ROMs from some of their > other early/dev hardware, but I wouldn't hold my breath...) Wasn't there an ARM "accelerator" for PCs, called the Springboard IIRC? Most of an Archimedes' core logic, but no sound/display or storage, on a big ISA board. [Googles] Here we go... http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Mags/PCW/PCW_Jan88_Springboard.pdf -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:47:37 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:47:37 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels In-Reply-To: <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 10/09/2007, Rob wrote: > > > On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > > > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > > > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > > > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > > > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > > > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] > > > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > > literacy. > > A pictogram which is not obviously a representation of it's target is not a > pictogram, it's a symbol. Er, no. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictogram > Learning to associate a symbol with it's meaning is > pretty much the definition of literacy. It is a /form/ of literacy, yes. It's an easy one without international bias, though. > The argument is that due to their > diversity, inconsistency, and non-pictogram-ness (sorry), these symbols > haven't solved anything (other than being politically correct in not giving > priority to one culture's natural language), they've just become a new obscure > language to learn. (A language which as someone else pointed out, is > unsearchable, at least for the time being.) It is simply not possible to make an image that resembles /all/ printers. What you would then be trying to achieve is not a pictogram but an ideogram, a symbol representing an idea or concept. The best that we can do is a picture of a box with, coming out of it, a piece of paper with writing on. That pretty clearly represents a printer in every country in the world, which /no/ word for printer in any language does. > I would argue that your example of written Chinese actually makes the opposite > point to your intent: one has to be literate in the now arbitrary association > of symbols to meaning to understand the symbols. It may be freed from a spoken > form but that's not the issue, the arbitrariness or non-intuitive-ness of the > association is. To read and write Chinese, one needs to memorise a whole writing system, including stroke order, bases and radicals, involving some ten thousand odd symbols for good literacy. A few thousand will suffice for everyday non-technical use. To know a printer socket from a SCSI socket, you need to memorise what, half a dozen? Maybe a dozen? If you can't do that, you shouldn't be playing with computers, they're too hard for you. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:54:17 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:54:17 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 10/09/07, Rob wrote: > >> On 10/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> > >>> Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee > >>> hardware? > >> Hmm... I've been mystified by strange symbols above connectors on the > >> backs of machines for a while now... Especially when it's from a > >> manufacturer I don't usually deal with. At least my own interest, the > >> BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. > > > > The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. > > I suspect it was more that the primary market was education, so it made sense > to be as user-friendly as possible by stating exactly what each port was. Education /in Britain/. It was the *BBC* Micro. > > > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? > > If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French to > get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. > > Given that manuals and software have to be regionalised for the intended > market, it hardly seems much effort on the part of the manufacturer to issue > case decals that are also regionalised. There seems little excuse for a > pictogram that might be ambiguous in *all* languages just because the > manufacturer was lazy or was trying to save a few pennies. I think that is absolute reverse of the case, actually. Printing a new manual is cheap; redesigning case mouldings or even just what's printed onto the case means retooling production lines, producing different models for different markets, tracking which country each machine is destined for... Vast amounts of complexity. Any manager or designer who suggested this would deserve to be fired for incompetence. > I suspect the number of times that a person is plonked in front of an alien > machine with absolutely no knowledge of the written language of the country > from which the machine is from is pretty small. In most cases it would only > happen when the person is visiting a foreign country, and in that case you'd > expect them to be making an effort to understand the language anyway. I think you believe that because you speak the world's most widespread international language. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 20:02:33 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 02:02:33 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > > > > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > > > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > > > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > > > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > > > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > > > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] > > > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > > literacy. > > Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer is > totally beyond me... I never can tell with you, Tony, whether you faking it and taking the mick, being deliberately obtuse to make some kind of point, or genuinely think in a very strange way. The point, as I have already spelled out abundantly clearly, is that someone may be perfectly literate and fluent in multiple languages and completely unfamiliar with English or even the Roman script. People who do not speak, read or write English use computers too, you know. What's more, they outnumber us by a very large margin. The biggest country in the world not only doesn't use our alphabet, it doesn't natively use an alphabet of any kind whatsoever. > If you have to learn that $icon means 'connect printer cable here' you > can equally easilly learn that you connect said cable to a connector > labelled wit hte string of chracters 'printer'. Or 'imprimante'. Or > 'drucker' or whatver it is in any other langage. Am English-language > manual fro a French device could quite easliy contain the statement > 'Connect the parellel printer cable to the 25 pin socket labelled > 'imprimante'' . That would be as easy to follow as using the icon, with > the benefit that if the manual got lost, a French-English dictionary > would explain the use of that connector. It is much simpler for everyone concerned /all over the world/ if you just match the symbol on the end of the cable with the one on the socket on the back of the computer. Yes, the word is easier, *in a single country*. But the computer market is, and has been for many decades, an international one. Hint: never wonder why there was a Psion 1, 2, 3 and 5 but not a 4? Because "4" in Mandarin Chinese - a tonal language where a single syllable has from 5 to 9 totally different meanings depending on the tone of voice in which you sing it - Chinese is sung, not spoken - the word for "4" is the same as the word for "death". You can't indicate the tone in non-Chinese writing, so when you write 4, you write death. A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing business in China does the same. Of course, if you write /four/ in Chinese it looks totally different from the ideogram for /death/ - but you would have difficulty marketing one product in a range internationally when it was named only in Chinese. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 10 20:39:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:39:16 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc - OT stereo In-Reply-To: <00cc01c7f407$4e2a9370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <00cc01c7f407$4e2a9370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46E5F1C4.9000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Ensor wrote: > That sort of stuff drives me up the wall. My ex-girlfriend has a stereo > (Toshiba I think) with that wonderful feature too....hey, you can even > play games ot it!!!! 8-| How about the TIME to upgrade to Better sounding Err Higher priced stuff game. > TTFN - Pete. I have a idea for a nice 2 watt valve/tube amp but need a second view point on the design. I have general schematic roughed out, but not sure if it will work as it all depends on the Power Supply, something I need help with? Any takers on this list ... Contact me off list. Ben alias woodelf From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 20:46:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:46:01 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com>, , <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E590E9.25276.35A8C6DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2007 at 2:02, Liam Proven wrote: > It is much simpler for everyone concerned /all over the world/ if you > just match the symbol on the end of the cable with the one on the > socket on the back of the computer. Symbols and labels on connectors on consumer devices have always smelled like a hack to me. It would seem that the optimal solution is to design the connectors so that it's IMPOSSIBLE to mate them up improperly. Why have a mouse that can plug into the same mini-DIN connector into which a keyboard can plug? Why not devise each connector with a uniquely-shaped and sized receptacle and plug (a simple receptacle collar and molded cable head would do) so that installation becomes a matter of plugging the triangular shaped plug into the like-shaped receptacle? I've never heard of anyone trying to plug an RJ-45 network connector into a DB-25 printer socket. For an extreme example of the wrong-headedness of thoughtless design, consider the lowly "wall wart" power supply. As an exercise, take all of the warts from all of the devices in your house and place them in a pile in the middle of a room. Draw the curtains and turn off the lights and try to match warts up with devices without toasting any. How the seeing-impaired manage in this world is beyond comprehension. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 21:07:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> > > Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer is > > totally beyond me... On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > I never can tell with you, Tony, whether you faking it and taking the > mick, being deliberately obtuse to make some kind of point, or > genuinely think in a very strange way. > The point, as I have already spelled out abundantly clearly, is that > someone may be perfectly literate and fluent in multiple languages and > completely unfamiliar with English or even the Roman script. > People who do not speak, read or write English use computers too, you Why can't they just open the box and look at the circuitry? If it's got a UART, and maybe some 1488,1489 chips, then it is serial, etc. I don't know much of anything about electronics, but I can still usually recognize what ports are for. > It is much simpler for everyone concerned /all over the world/ if you > just match the symbol on the end of the cable with the one on the > socket on the back of the computer. > Yes, the word is easier, *in a single country*. But the computer > market is, and has been for many decades, an international one. But, if a computer is made in a different country than the printer, then the pictures will probably not match. There is at least one documented case of a fatality from the frustration of "RS232" printer interfacing. > A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious > reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing > business in China does the same. That would be a nice item to have in a collection. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 22:32:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:32:34 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Cheers for that! > > M95, eh? That's quite a modern one, isn't it - a 486 or even a Pentium? It's an AMD K6-2, believe it or not. I have another mod 95 as a print server. I chose it because it has two parallel ports on the motherboard. I could probably switch to something that uses less juice, but it's been so freakin' rock-solid that I don't feel I should screw with it. It's running four printers. Two parallel, one serial and one SCSI. > I am considering trying to put my old Model 80-A21 - once the LAN > server on my home net - on the Web as a webserver. I like the idea of > a webserver that is significantly older than the Web itself. :-) I'd consider an 8580-Axx newish. It has *gasp* CACHE! I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. Peace... Sridhar From g-wright at att.net Mon Sep 10 22:45:04 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:45:04 +0000 Subject: Motorola Exormacs - disk cable Message-ID: <091120070345.23340.46E60F3F0008F91D00005B2C21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Jules Richardson : -------------- > > We've just acquired a Motorola Exormacs system, which is sadly without its > floppy drive cable (40 pins on the Exormacs side, 50 on the 8" floppy unit > (Exordrive III I believe). > > I suspect the floppy side is just straight-through to the drives, but can > anyone confirm that, and does anyone know the pinout on the system unit side > of things? > > Worst-case we'll have to reverse engineer it, but maybe someone knows (we've > got no floppies for the system and no useful manuals unfortunately) > > cheers > > Jules I have a Disk II here and the cable is 40 pin from the back of the drive to te controller card.. If needed it can open it up and see what happens inside. The boot images are on Bit Savers but not set up yet. I have the URL if needed Still working on the NCR's - Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From g-wright at att.net Mon Sep 10 22:51:27 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:51:27 +0000 Subject: Moto MVME121 paper Message-ID: <091120070351.28959.46E610BE000013AF0000711F21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Chuck Guzis" : -------------- > Under the heading of "where did *that* come from?", I've stumbled on > a loose leaf binder from Motorola titled "MVME121 System Hardware > Manual". There are several publications within, but the bulk of the > binder's taken up by a document called "MVME319 Intelligent Disk/Tape > Controller User's Manual", which contains all sorts of detail, > including principles of operation, command layouts and schematics. > Circa 1986. > > A customer must've sent it to me; I have no use for it. Anyone want > it for the cost of shipping? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi Chuck If you have not found a home for this, I will take it. Jerry Wright JLC inc. 1517 So Central Ave Kent, Wa. 98032 Just let me know how much and where to send it. - Jerry From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 10 22:57:14 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:57:14 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009001c7f427$d70242e0$1300a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver > I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! > > I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. > > Peace... Sridhar What MCA hardware is used for video editing? From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 10 23:25:45 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:25:45 -0400 Subject: Shelby HamFest References: <1187833285.10606.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002d01c7f42b$d4626de0$0100a8c0@screamer> Hello Steve, We should talk about swapping those machines soon. I may need to travel south shortly. Bob S. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Robertson" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:41 PM Subject: Shelby HamFest > Hey guys, > > What is advertised as the "granddaddy of all hamfests" is coming up, at > the end of this month, in Shelby North Carolina. I have never been to > this particular event and will likely attend this years festivities. > > Does anyone else on this list plan on attending? > Has anyone attended the Shelby hamfest before? > > Thanks, SteveRob > steerex ccvn com > > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 23:37:36 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:37:36 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <009001c7f427$d70242e0$1300a8c0@game> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <009001c7f427$d70242e0$1300a8c0@game> Message-ID: <46E61B90.4060208@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >> I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! >> >> I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. > > What MCA hardware is used for video editing? M-Motion Video Capture Adapter/A. Only does 640x480x16, but has *loads* of I/O. The editing is done in software, very slowly. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 13:43:22 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:43:22 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) Message-ID: <0JO6004ZZ1BLI223@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) > From: Roger Ivie > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:42:28 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Sep 9, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: >>> >>> I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I >>> never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was >>> some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the >>> normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine >>> was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name was >>> Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: >> >> Are you sure that wasn't "Ernie"? That sounds like something my old friend >> and mentor Ernie Perez might have tried. > >Pretty sure it was Ozzie. The big problem with putting a MicroVAX in the VT103 is enough slots for memory and a disk interface. It's certainly doable and when you consider some of the plans floated for 11/73s, why not uVAX. Allison >-- >roger ivie >rivie at ridgenet.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 13:47:20 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:47:20 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO6000791I8W464@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "e.stiebler" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:18:26 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If course, if a project were to erupt that was some form of portable >> J-11 design w/1MB or more of SRAM and some local mass storage, I would >> certainly strongly consider building one, even if I had to borrow a >> J-11 chip from one of my two sources. > >But the j-11 are alos very easy to get, as a lot 11/73 boards are >showing even on ebay for dirt cheap. And a SBC-11-+++ would be also a >nice project, getting SCSI or IDE, 4 MBytes of ram, 100 mbit ethernet, ... IF you have the part on Qbus already then a small backplance with other scaled sized parts and it's left to being a programming project. Seriously I already have a BA11VA with 11/23, 235kb ram, IO and RQDX3 in only four dual slots, why bother smaller? For that fact why wreck a J11 CPU board to make a J11 system? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 14:03:35 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:03:35 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO6002VY29AP111@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:54:24 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most >> >things. CF is easy to interface to, and CF cards 1GB and smaller are >> >quite inexpensive. MMC/SD are also inexpensive and even easier to >> >interface to, with a bit more work on the driver side to man the SPI >> >interface. >> >> None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE >> using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. > >I believe converters for IDE to CF cards are pretty cheap, so if you have >IDE, you effectively have CF. True but then I ahve to buy an adaptor and the CF. And I don't get to use up that pile of drives.. ;) >> You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that >> but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. > >You might want to look at some of the "Laptops" that others have built for >things such as the Amiga. It might not be as difficult as you might think. If you have to wirewarp the system board first then create a CRT/LCD driver board yes it gets nasty. If you have RS170 video already then there are screens available. I've traversed this path a few times already and the basic thing is if you have excess money to throw at it then it's easier. >> The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), >> Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) >> and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool >> to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal >> logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in >> the 7-9" size. >> >> Right now it's a static project from the build it perspective but >> as new ideas surface and other projects supply different expereinces >> it morphs some. What I'd have built say 6 years ago and noew would >> be very different. It will eventually get attention as I have parts >> stored away for it. > >Sounds fun. One day I'll just decide to do it.. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 14:22:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:22:04 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO6000D6343VM44@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:55:56 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/10/07, Allison wrote: >> > "Ethan Dicks" > > >> >On 9/9/07, Allison wrote: >> >> One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC >> >> drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. >> > >> >I'd like to hear more about this... >> >> I have a lot on paper plus the ever important T-11 manual. > >Very handy. Required! ;) >> However >> it has stopped at that phase mostly due to other projects having >> my interest. > >Fair enough. I think most of us have a variety of projects cluttering >our foreground task. > >> ... only 8KW ram, 8KW Eprom and a DLART for serial IO. > >Certainly minimal, though today, 28KW of RAM isn't a stretch. At the time I was just hacking and wanted to use the smaller parts I had for simplicity reasons. >> The display is really the harder part at least for portability and power >> consumption. However for this one I was considering packaging along >> the lines of the Kaypro totables and wall power. Part of this recognizes >> the T-11 uses a fair amount of power (Z80 NMOS is similar) and most of >> the parts around it will not be CMOS so battery operation is not easily >> accomplished. > >Understandable. > >> >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most >> >things... >> >> None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE >> using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. > >That's certainly a larger device than I'd envisioned (my initial idea >was a "pod" the size of a modem or smaller, with an external >display/keyboard/host port). > >> >While textual LCDs are cheaper and easier to interface to, the largest >> >one I've seen is 4x40. A graphical LCD panel with a SED1335 or t6963 >> >of a size of 640x200 would be perfect for 80x25... >> >> I planned on text. However it's possible to get LCDs used for laptops >> but the logic to drive them is non trivial. > >Yes. I have a 640x400 laptop display, with specs, that ran me about >$10 a few years back. If I ever decide to learn VHDL, I might try to >interface it to my IOB6120, but, yes, it takes a bit of work to talk >to those. I ahve three of them, monchrome. They are easy enough to drive but the little "gotchas" are nasty. First one is the display is really two 640x240 segments running in parallel top and bottom so there are two "video" data paths running concurrently unlike a CRT. If your doing bit mapped (1BPP) that's some 40k of total memory to address, oh and that has to really two memories or a funny dual output scheme to feed the display. Doing character only simplifies it some if you don't mind doing some logic twice (font, bit shifter, memory). >> >Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it >> >doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to >> >design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... >> >> Correct on the OS and software. However the MMU is very buildable >> and not near as hardware intensive as would seem. For an example >> look at the T-11 interface in the VT240. It takes a few 16x4 >> bipolar rams and some loose logic to implement the paging (2 74189, >> 3 74ls257 and a bit of TTL glue) to make a a compatable (mostly) mapper. > >Interesting. I suppose it couldn't be _too_ complicated, then, since >it one like it does fit on a few square inches of 11/34 CPU board. Basic circuit is the same. >I even happen to have a small pad of 74189s. Same here. > >> One of the things I've given consideration to in recent years is a nonDEC >> and non *nix OS such as CUBIX as that would translate reasonably from >> 6908 to PDP-11. This arises from the fact that RT-11 has a very >> primitive filesystem compared to CP/M and an OS that is not encumbered >> would be easier to work with. > >Hmm... from what I've seen of CUBIX, it sounds feasible for a PDP-11 >host, and it certainly gets around the issue of what OS to distribute, >but I would think that porting CUBIX could be an entirely independent >project (focusing on whatever display and mass-storage interfaces are >available). The OS can be logically seperated from the mass storage and addressed as a series of logical blocks so that going to floppy, IDE or whatever is easy as most do (or can do) 512byte sectors as a consistant thing. That divorces the CHS/LBA thing from the os. > > >So, Allison, does any of this sound like what you had in mind... ? >> >> You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that >> but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. > >I hadn't specifically been requiring a laptop shape, more of a tiny >luggable - on the order of one of the modern Tektronix LCD-screen >digital scopes. totable. ;) >> The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), >> Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) >> and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool >> to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal >> logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in >> the 7-9" size. > >OK. I'm not sure I get the "VK170" reference. Is that some sort of >DEC or 3rd party embedded product? VK170 was a DEC Qbus/Ubus card that did RS232/423 IO and had outputs for RS170 video or Video/Hsync/Vsync and took a parallel keyboard to serial (used LK02 or similar). The bus edge connector was power only so it could even be externally mounted as a minimal VT52 (80x25). It's in the Microcomputer handbooks. >Thanks for sharing your design ideas. They aren't patented. ;) Allison From berste28 at cogeco.ca Mon Sep 10 17:07:16 2007 From: berste28 at cogeco.ca (Edith Stevenson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:07:16 -0400 Subject: Relisys 4816 scanner - anyone have info on it? References: 9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146767F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Message-ID: <46E5C014.10904@cogeco.ca> yes it is a 4800dpi optical full colour scanner and can take legal size. this is a high end scanner. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Sep 11 02:12:01 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:12:01 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E63FC2.3AD17F9B@cs.ubc.ca> > To know a printer socket from a SCSI socket, you need to memorise > what, half a dozen? Maybe a dozen? > If you can't do that, you shouldn't be playing with computers, they're > too hard for you. I wasn't being nasty, there was no need for you to start. Be aware that while you may have intended that insult for me, you actually hit all those who had earlier expressed confusion over many of the 'few' symbols. It's also doubly cheap in that you yourself set up the conditions (relative quantity of symbols - irrelevant to the point being made) from which to derive it. You're responses to my points were all misdirections from the issue, except for the one in which you further undermine your own position (printer symbols). You failed to address the argument. (And wikipedia isn't exactly anything to rely on for precise definitions.) This is OT as I tried to point in my earlier message, and considering your approach to debating, I'm not interested in dragging it out further. From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Sep 11 02:44:42 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:44:42 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > I think that is absolute reverse of the case, actually. Printing a new > manual is cheap; redesigning case mouldings or even just what's > printed onto the case means retooling production lines, producing > different models for different markets, tracking which country each > machine is destined for... Vast amounts of complexity. Any manager or > designer who suggested this would deserve to be fired for > incompetence. Most consumer electronics manufacturers already support manufacturing for several different markets, even if it's only a different power plug/wall wart that's required on the device. So just supply all reasonable varients of labeling with each model. Place I worked used to sell (Lexmark?) laser printers. They came with a selection of bezels to clip around the front panel buttons, with WORDS in a variety of languages, Heck, even the Fisher Price toys I've been buying rather a lot of lately come with an A4 sheet of stickers with the H&S warnings in each of a couple of dozen languages - pick yours & stick it here... If they can do it, surely a manufacturer of a expensive technology can produce a sheet of stickers for the user to pick one and place alongside the connectors.. The manuals come in about twenty different languages, after all!! (Hmm... back in the 486 days, pre-ATX, some of the really cheap chinese clone PC cases we used to buy, themselves came with a sheet of stickers for you to apply to the case to describe the ports. Individual labels for mouse, serial, monitor, keyboard, printer, scsi, scanner, etc. All in written out in English !) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 11 05:39:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:39:27 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E6705F.4050306@yahoo.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: >>>> BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. >>> The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. >> I suspect it was more that the primary market was education, so it made sense >> to be as user-friendly as possible by stating exactly what each port was. > > Education /in Britain/. It was the *BBC* Micro. I think you missed my point. It wasn't a typical general-purpose 'home' machine of the time, it was a machine designed primarily for a specific market - namely one where the majority of the users would be children who were actively encouraged to be plugging things into the machine. (unfortunately the only technical spec I have is 09/1981 and just states "colour scheme and markings to be agreed by BBC" - it doesn't detail the thinking about the labeling) >> Given that manuals and software have to be regionalised for the intended >> market, it hardly seems much effort on the part of the manufacturer to issue >> case decals that are also regionalised. There seems little excuse for a >> pictogram that might be ambiguous in *all* languages just because the >> manufacturer was lazy or was trying to save a few pennies. > > I think that is absolute reverse of the case, actually. Printing a new > manual is cheap; redesigning case mouldings or even just what's > printed onto the case means retooling production lines, producing > different models for different markets, tracking which country each > machine is destined for... Vast amounts of complexity. Most cases - even modern PCs - seem to have at least something stuck to the front which isn't part of the basic underlying moulding. It hardly seems like rocket science to regoinalise what amounts to a printed label knocked up in a design package. >> I suspect the number of times that a person is plonked in front of an alien >> machine with absolutely no knowledge of the written language of the country >> from which the machine is from is pretty small. In most cases it would only >> happen when the person is visiting a foreign country, and in that case you'd >> expect them to be making an effort to understand the language anyway. > > I think you believe that because you speak the world's most widespread > international language. OK; I wouldn't travel to France without knowing some French. I wouldn't go to Japan without learning Japanese. To not do so would just be an insult to the people of the country that I'm visiting, not to mention downright rude. Now, if I were in a situation where I was going abroad and going to be plugging bits of hardware together (rather than merely anticipating being a user of an assembled machine - in an office or Internet cafe, say) then it hardly seems difficult to extend my education to the few necessary words needed to figure out ports on a computer. In fact that's probably even easier for me than being in a foreign country where I'm not fluent in the language and am faced with a bunch of mysterious pictograms - not having the port functions spelled out actually makes it worse, because I not only have to ask what the ports are in the native tongue, but also interpret the response (so I still need to know what 'printer', 'serial' etc. is anyway) (sorry, pet peeve, but people who bumble into foreign countries and expect to communicate solely in their own tongue rather annoy me!) From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Sep 11 06:20:43 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:20:43 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:23:07 PDT." <46E231BB.8060205@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200709111120.l8BBKhYs031268@mwave.heeltoe.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > >The former's basically what I was planning on doing. The "challenge" I >spoke of is that I'm new to programming the Mac and new to Appletalk so >I need to dig into what it'll take to write client/server code for >"distributing" the time amongst the machines :). I've found all the >requisite documentation, it's just a matter of sitting down and digging >into it now... If you just use the datagram protocol it should be pretty simple; as I recall (dimly) you can add a handler pretty easily from an app. And you can broadcast which removes all the configuration issues. I think you might need to add a little asm wrapper to get it to work with think c. back in the day I had examples but I don't think I do any more. I might have docs somewhere - "inside appletalk" -brad From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Sep 11 07:07:10 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:07:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Jaguar Blaster (was Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?) Message-ID: > There was also an Atari Jaguar on an PCI card, Creative Labs' "Jaguar > Blaster". > > They seem to be pretty thin on the ground though, I'd love to get > one.... The only mention I've ever seen anywhere of a Jaguar Blaster card is here: http://justclaws.atari.org/altatari/dxnews.htm Read some of the other items, and you'll soon get the idea that the stories aren't exactly true. Actually, there was a Jaguar-on-a-PCI-card project called JagPC that was at least announced by Sigma Designs. I don't think a prototype ever existed, but I could be wrong. Jaguars were pretty good 2D pixel-pushers, and would have made a respectable graphics card for the time period. -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Tue Sep 11 08:21:04 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:21:04 +0100 Subject: Free: PowerMac 6500/250 (UK) Message-ID: Any interest in this? It's just come from a customer of mine who's had it from new, with compatible inkjet printer, o/s disks & virtual PC. If I don't hear any responses it'll go on the local Freecycle when I've shredded the disk, but I thought I'd offer here first. Stroller. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 08:25:38 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:25:38 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709110625q64043e02o982a6513323983fb@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer is > > > totally beyond me... > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > I never can tell with you, Tony, whether you faking it and taking the > > mick, being deliberately obtuse to make some kind of point, or > > genuinely think in a very strange way. > > The point, as I have already spelled out abundantly clearly, is that > > someone may be perfectly literate and fluent in multiple languages and > > completely unfamiliar with English or even the Roman script. > > People who do not speak, read or write English use computers too, you > > Why can't they just open the box and look at the circuitry? > If it's got a UART, and maybe some 1488,1489 chips, then it is serial, > etc. [Laughter] Hang on... that *was* a joke, right? > But, if a computer is made in a different country than the printer, then > the pictures will probably not match. > There is at least one documented case of a fatality from the frustration > of "RS232" printer interfacing. Do tell? > > A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious > > reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing > > business in China does the same. > > That would be a nice item to have in a collection. I'd rather have a modern Psion. I'd give good money for a fast colour one with a few gigs of storage, USB, Wifi and Bluetooth. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 08:27:57 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:27:57 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709110627y33a4dcdcpe44812be09a22497@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Rob wrote: > On 11/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > I think that is absolute reverse of the case, actually. Printing a new > > manual is cheap; redesigning case mouldings or even just what's > > printed onto the case means retooling production lines, producing > > different models for different markets, tracking which country each > > machine is destined for... Vast amounts of complexity. Any manager or > > designer who suggested this would deserve to be fired for > > incompetence. > > Most consumer electronics manufacturers already support manufacturing > for several different markets, even if it's only a different power > plug/wall wart that's required on the device. > > So just supply all reasonable varients of labeling with each model. > Place I worked used to sell (Lexmark?) laser printers. They came with > a selection of bezels to clip around the front panel buttons, with > WORDS in a variety of languages, > > Heck, even the Fisher Price toys I've been buying rather a lot of > lately come with an A4 sheet of stickers with the H&S warnings in each > of a couple of dozen languages - pick yours & stick it here... If > they can do it, surely a manufacturer of a expensive technology can > produce a sheet of stickers for the user to pick one and place > alongside the connectors.. The manuals come in about twenty > different languages, after all!! > > (Hmm... back in the 486 days, pre-ATX, some of the really cheap > chinese clone PC cases we used to buy, themselves came with a sheet of > stickers for you to apply to the case to describe the ports. > Individual labels for mouse, serial, monitor, keyboard, printer, scsi, > scanner, etc. All in written out in English !) Either you're pulling my leg - which looks not to be the case - or you're really being extraordinarily dense. Just in case it's option B: In short clear words: Printing on paper CHEAP. Printing on case DEAR. Changing case moulding HARD. If you're seriously proposing shipping cases with /no/ labelling and a sheet of DIY labels, you're either deranged or very stupid, and either way, it's not worth trying to reason with you. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 08:33:25 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:33:25 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E6705F.4050306@yahoo.co.uk> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> <46E6705F.4050306@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0709110633i5d34d453oe7e4f353af4f8beb@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >>>> BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. > >>> The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. > >> I suspect it was more that the primary market was education, so it made sense > >> to be as user-friendly as possible by stating exactly what each port was. > > > > Education /in Britain/. It was the *BBC* Micro. > > I think you missed my point. It wasn't a typical general-purpose 'home' > machine of the time, it was a machine designed primarily for a specific market > - namely one where the majority of the users would be children who were > actively encouraged to be plugging things into the machine. > > (unfortunately the only technical spec I have is 09/1981 and just states > "colour scheme and markings to be agreed by BBC" - it doesn't detail the > thinking about the labeling) Er, yes, I follow that, but I confess I do fail to see the relevance? > >> Given that manuals and software have to be regionalised for the intended > >> market, it hardly seems much effort on the part of the manufacturer to issue > >> case decals that are also regionalised. There seems little excuse for a > >> pictogram that might be ambiguous in *all* languages just because the > >> manufacturer was lazy or was trying to save a few pennies. > > > > I think that is absolute reverse of the case, actually. Printing a new > > manual is cheap; redesigning case mouldings or even just what's > > printed onto the case means retooling production lines, producing > > different models for different markets, tracking which country each > > machine is destined for... Vast amounts of complexity. > > Most cases - even modern PCs - seem to have at least something stuck to the > front which isn't part of the basic underlying moulding. It hardly seems like > rocket science to regoinalise what amounts to a printed label knocked up in a > design package. Well... (1) It's more labour. (2) Labels could be misapplied. (3) Labels will possibly wear off or fall off in time but mostly (4) all the problems I enumerated of localising the kit and making sure the right things are shipped to the right places, and the problems of moving kit from one country to another, still apply. Why do you think they bother with those multi-language instruction pamphlets? Because it means they can ship the same sealed box in any market. > >> I suspect the number of times that a person is plonked in front of an alien > >> machine with absolutely no knowledge of the written language of the country > >> from which the machine is from is pretty small. In most cases it would only > >> happen when the person is visiting a foreign country, and in that case you'd > >> expect them to be making an effort to understand the language anyway. > > > > I think you believe that because you speak the world's most widespread > > international language. > > OK; I wouldn't travel to France without knowing some French. D'accord, absolutement. > I wouldn't go to > Japan without learning Japanese. Hai, so desu ne. > To not do so would just be an insult to the > people of the country that I'm visiting, not to mention downright rude. I agree. It's the main reason I have a smattering of German, Spanish, Swedish and so on. > Now, if I were in a situation where I was going abroad and going to be > plugging bits of hardware together (rather than merely anticipating being a > user of an assembled machine - in an office or Internet cafe, say) then it > hardly seems difficult to extend my education to the few necessary words > needed to figure out ports on a computer. It's not about occasional visitors; it's about natives. > In fact that's probably even easier for me than being in a foreign country > where I'm not fluent in the language and am faced with a bunch of mysterious > pictograms - not having the port functions spelled out actually makes it > worse, because I not only have to ask what the ports are in the native tongue, > but also interpret the response (so I still need to know what 'printer', > 'serial' etc. is anyway) That's not the manufacturer's problem. They probably supplied a little leaflet in 20 languages explaining what does what. If you're a Kazakh, tough, but then, you probably couldn't afford it anyway. Read the Russian. > (sorry, pet peeve, but people who bumble into foreign countries and expect to > communicate solely in their own tongue rather annoy me!) Entirely agree. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 08:37:40 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:37:40 +0100 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > Cheers for that! > > > > M95, eh? That's quite a modern one, isn't it - a 486 or even a Pentium? > > It's an AMD K6-2, believe it or not. I have another mod 95 as a print > server. I chose it because it has two parallel ports on the > motherboard. I could probably switch to something that uses less juice, > but it's been so freakin' rock-solid that I don't feel I should screw > with it. It's running four printers. Two parallel, one serial and one > SCSI. Wow! A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? > > I am considering trying to put my old Model 80-A21 - once the LAN > > server on my home net - on the Web as a webserver. I like the idea of > > a webserver that is significantly older than the Web itself. :-) > > I'd consider an 8580-Axx newish. It has *gasp* CACHE! :?) Indeed. Runs Windows NT 3.51 SP5 really well for its age, too. But AFAIK, it's contemporaneous with the other Model 80s, as part of the original range. IIRC: 30 - slimline desktop 8086 (ISA, MCGA) 50 - desktop 286 60 - tower 286 70 - desktop 386 80 - desktop 386 > I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! [Boggle] > I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. I don't have the space, but it was the state of the art when I started my first job & I still have great affection for it. The only things I've seen which rival it for build quality are the PowerMac G5s and later. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 08:40:37 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:40:37 +0100 Subject: Free: PowerMac 6500/250 (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0709110640s34013756l296b57cb94c5aa2e@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Stroller wrote: > Any interest in this? It's just come from a customer of mine who's > had it from new, with compatible inkjet printer, o/s disks & virtual PC. > > If I don't hear any responses it'll go on the local Freecycle when > I've shredded the disk, but I thought I'd offer here first. You know, with a lot of work, you can run OS X on them? http://www.zone6400.com/files/installing_OSX.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 08:44:10 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:44:10 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels In-Reply-To: <46E63FC2.3AD17F9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> <46E63FC2.3AD17F9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0709110644m11808533vda765cf545eb0a42@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > To know a printer socket from a SCSI socket, you need to memorise > > what, half a dozen? Maybe a dozen? > > > If you can't do that, you shouldn't be playing with computers, they're > > too hard for you. > > I wasn't being nasty, there was no need for you to start. Be aware that while > you may have intended that insult for me, you actually hit all those who had > earlier expressed confusion over many of the 'few' symbols. > > It's also doubly cheap in that you yourself set up the conditions (relative > quantity of symbols - irrelevant to the point being made) from which to derive it. > > You're responses to my points were all misdirections from the issue, except > for the one in which you further undermine your own position (printer symbols). > You failed to address the argument. > > (And wikipedia isn't exactly anything to rely on for precise definitions.) > > This is OT as I tried to point in my earlier message, and considering your > approach to debating, I'm not interested in dragging it out further. Oh, FFS! Hint: the word "you" in colloquial English usage does not always refer directly to an individual or to the person being addressed. For example: "If you want to learn to fly a plane, you have to demonstrate good vision and a degree of numeracy". This would be a perfectly reasonable statement in a magazine or newspaper article, without any implication that every reader of that journal is an aspiring pilot. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 09:06:45 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:06:45 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E6A0F5.3080205@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >>> M95, eh? That's quite a modern one, isn't it - a 486 or even a Pentium? >> It's an AMD K6-2, believe it or not. I have another mod 95 as a print >> server. I chose it because it has two parallel ports on the >> motherboard. I could probably switch to something that uses less juice, >> but it's been so freakin' rock-solid that I don't feel I should screw >> with it. It's running four printers. Two parallel, one serial and one >> SCSI. > > Wow! > > A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? It's a continuous-tone dye-sub photo printer. And the serial one is actually a pen-plotter, but I count it as a printer. >>> I am considering trying to put my old Model 80-A21 - once the LAN >>> server on my home net - on the Web as a webserver. I like the idea of >>> a webserver that is significantly older than the Web itself. :-) >> I'd consider an 8580-Axx newish. It has *gasp* CACHE! > > :?) Indeed. Runs Windows NT 3.51 SP5 really well for its age, too. > > But AFAIK, it's contemporaneous with the other Model 80s, as part of > the original range. It actually came out about a year and a half later. Mid-1989? > IIRC: > 30 - slimline desktop 8086 (ISA, MCGA) > 50 - desktop 286 > 60 - tower 286 > 70 - desktop 386 > 80 - desktop 386 ^^^^^^^^^^^ I assume this was supposed to read "tower 386". >> I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! > > [Boggle] > >> I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. > > I don't have the space, but it was the state of the art when I started > my first job & I still have great affection for it. The only things > I've seen which rival it for build quality are the PowerMac G5s and > later. You should at least pick up one of the last-generation microchannel RS/6000s. Some of them can still be considered reasonably quick today. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 09:07:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:07:14 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110625q64043e02o982a6513323983fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0709110625q64043e02o982a6513323983fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E6A112.9000806@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >>> A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious >>> reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing >>> business in China does the same. >> That would be a nice item to have in a collection. > > I'd rather have a modern Psion. I'd give good money for a fast colour > one with a few gigs of storage, USB, Wifi and Bluetooth. Why not a SymbianOS machine? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 09:16:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:16:56 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110644m11808533vda765cf545eb0a42@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> <46E63FC2.3AD17F9B@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709110644m11808533vda765cf545eb0a42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E6A358.8020209@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Oh, FFS! > > Hint: the word "you" in colloquial English usage does not always refer > directly to an individual or to the person being addressed. > > For example: "If you want to learn to fly a plane, you have to > demonstrate good vision and a degree of numeracy". This would be a > perfectly reasonable statement in a magazine or newspaper article, > without any implication that every reader of that journal is an > aspiring pilot. Whenever I'm making a statement similar to the one in your example, I always try to use the word "one" instead of "you". It's clearer and it sounds less accusatory. I forget sometimes, though. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 11 09:18:29 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:18:29 -0500 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com > References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070911091622.0ad85e90@mail> At 08:37 AM 9/11/2007, Liam Proven wrote: >Wow! A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? It wasn't a odd choice in pre-USB, pre-Firewire prehistory. If you need to move lots of data to a raster printer, SCSI was an option. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 11 09:46:38 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Sep 11, 7 02:37:40 pm" Message-ID: <200709111446.l8BEkc8i009580@floodgap.com> > A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? That's not so strange. There were several Apple LaserWriters that connected that way (the SC comes to mind), and many LaserWriters had SCSI ports for connecting hard disks with external fonts. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The idea is to die young as late as possible. -- Ashley Montagu ------------ From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Sep 11 09:48:53 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:48:53 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110627y33a4dcdcpe44812be09a22497@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709110627y33a4dcdcpe44812be09a22497@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709110748h6282065cp77a92b5049ee54fc@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > (Hmm... back in the 486 days, pre-ATX, some of the really cheap > > chinese clone PC cases we used to buy, themselves came with a sheet of > > stickers for you to apply to the case to describe the ports. > > Individual labels for mouse, serial, monitor, keyboard, printer, scsi, > > scanner, etc. All in written out in English !) > > Either you're pulling my leg - which looks not to be the case - or > you're really being extraordinarily dense. > > Just in case it's option B: > > In short clear words: > > Printing on paper CHEAP. Printing on case DEAR. Changing case moulding HARD. > > If you're seriously proposing shipping cases with /no/ labelling and a > sheet of DIY labels, you're either deranged or very stupid, and either > way, it's not worth trying to reason with you. > Excuse me, I don't think it's at all called for to revert to personal insults. If you care to re-read what I wrote, it was that I had experienced exactly that. I didn't suggest it. Admitedly they were empty cases for an OEM market, so individual stickers were the best they could do, and we rarely used them, but that's what happened. Compared to the Lexmark example, though, which was exactly what retail customers got - a printer with a panel of unmarked buttons, and a plastic bezel printed *in their own language* for them to clip around them. This was included in the pack with the country specific manual, power cable etc. It would be easy to add another panel, or a single, formatted, sticker, etc, for the connectors. Another example; the Epson RX425, a decidedly mass market printer, I have upstairs, came with a paper sticker to place alongside the buttons to explain the symbols with proper words. As you said yourself "Printing on paper CHEAP". Just do one for the back as well. From rickb at bensene.com Tue Sep 11 09:58:13 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:58:13 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709110748h6282065cp77a92b5049ee54fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com><575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com><46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca><46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com><2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com><575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com><46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk><575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com><2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com><575131af0709110627y33a4dcdcpe44812be09a22497@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709110748h6282065cp77a92b5049ee54fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Is there any possible way that the Subject of this thread of messages could be changed? The current topic of discussion has absolutely nothing to do with Wang 300-Series calculators, yet I feel compelled to have to read through them, just in case there might be something interesting relating to the calculators in any of them (but, alas, this hasn't been the case since the original posting and a few responses). Thanks to all, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From g at kurico.com Tue Sep 11 10:06:55 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:06:55 -0500 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070911091622.0ad85e90@mail> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070911091622.0ad85e90@mail> Message-ID: <46E6AF0F.5060805@kurico.com> John Foust wrote: > At 08:37 AM 9/11/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Wow! A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? >> > > It wasn't a odd choice in pre-USB, pre-Firewire prehistory. If you > need to move lots of data to a raster printer, SCSI was an option. > > - John > > True, sounds like Sridhar may have the same type of printer that I do. It's a dye sublimation printer, what's cool about it (at least mine is this way) is that it has a Sun SparcStation built into the printer! It has parallel, scsi, and ethernet interfaces. It was designed to print graphics images so you'd always be chunking large files over to it. It actually worked quite well and very good scaling algorithms (I have printouts from my old <1megapixel camera that look as good printed 6x8 as many modern setups (does a very respectable job at 8.6x11 as well). I believe mine have a SparcStation Classic internally. You can hook up a terminal to it's serial port and log into the Sparc. George From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:17:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:17:43 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <46E6AF0F.5060805@kurico.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070911091622.0ad85e90@mail> <46E6AF0F.5060805@kurico.com> Message-ID: <46E6B197.2030409@gmail.com> George Currie wrote: >>> Wow! A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? >> >> It wasn't a odd choice in pre-USB, pre-Firewire prehistory. If you >> need to move lots of data to a raster printer, SCSI was an option. >> > True, sounds like Sridhar may have the same type of printer that I do. > It's a dye sublimation printer, what's cool about it (at least mine is > this way) is that it has a Sun SparcStation built into the printer! It > has parallel, scsi, and ethernet interfaces. It was designed to print > graphics images so you'd always be chunking large files over to it. It > actually worked quite well and very good scaling algorithms (I have > printouts from my old <1megapixel camera that look as good printed 6x8 > as many modern setups (does a very respectable job at 8.6x11 as well). > I believe mine have a SparcStation Classic internally. You can hook up > a terminal to it's serial port and log into the Sparc. Mine doesn't have parallel or ethernet and uses software running Linux as an outboard controller (the software runs on the aforementioned PS/2), but the concept is similar. Peace... Sridhar From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Sep 11 10:52:52 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spanish speaker for spanish radio interview? Message-ID: Does anyone speak fluent Spanish? If so, there's a spanish-language radio station in Florida that wants to do a 7 minute interview about vintage computers today at 2:15PM (Eastern). Contact me ASAP if you'd like to do this and you speak Spanish. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:08:57 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:08:57 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels In-Reply-To: <46E6A358.8020209@gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> <46E63FC2.3AD17F9B@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709110644m11808533vda765cf545eb0a42@mail.gmail.com> <46E6A358.8020209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709111008v4fd74e6bl83a2b35f4840e004@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > Oh, FFS! > > > > Hint: the word "you" in colloquial English usage does not always refer > > directly to an individual or to the person being addressed. > > > > For example: "If you want to learn to fly a plane, you have to > > demonstrate good vision and a degree of numeracy". This would be a > > perfectly reasonable statement in a magazine or newspaper article, > > without any implication that every reader of that journal is an > > aspiring pilot. > > Whenever I'm making a statement similar to the one in your example, I > always try to use the word "one" instead of "you". It's clearer and it > sounds less accusatory. I forget sometimes, though. [Nod] Whether I do this depends upon on the tone I am aiming for. If I am being careful, precise and formal, I do it too. If I'm being informal, as in, writing as I would normally speak, then no. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:17:55 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:17:55 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E6A112.9000806@gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0709110625q64043e02o982a6513323983fb@mail.gmail.com> <46E6A112.9000806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709111017v37cc9eefhc97d161286776673@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >>> A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious > >>> reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing > >>> business in China does the same. > >> That would be a nice item to have in a collection. > > > > I'd rather have a modern Psion. I'd give good money for a fast colour > > one with a few gigs of storage, USB, Wifi and Bluetooth. > > Why not a SymbianOS machine? Had one (Nokia 7710), am looking at buying another (Nokia E90), but all available today are of /vastly/ inferior design to Psion's machines of the 1990s. Tiny low-res screens, dreadful minuscule keyboards, bizarre stunted GUIs designed by incompetents with most of the functionality removed... It's a complete mess. For the plague of disastrously bad keyboards, I blame those appalling Blackberry devices. Pagers on steroids, they only exist because the USA's mobile phone network is so ludicrously backwards that pagers - dead in most of the world by 1995 or so - persisted into the 21st century. I've had a phone in my pocket that could send and receive written messages of a few hundred characters for 11 years now, and I was a /very/ late adopter. Anyone who could design a Blackberry and think it was a decent usable interface on a pocket-sized device for entering text has, I submit, never held a Psion 5 or 5mx. Or, if one insists on a tiny ladies' jeans pocket sized object, a Psion Revo. Symbian is Psion's EPOC, robbed of all backwards or sideways compatibility, with an assortment of lousy but colourful and shiny GUIs for near-terminal technophobes bolted on top. The Nokia Communicators were telephone Psions designed by a committee with the imagination of a small pebble. The only good thing about Symbian is that it's not as bad as Windows Mobile. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Sep 11 12:19:08 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:19:08 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070911170545.06B37FE8B6@mac-mini.local> On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:46:59 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a >>> construction article, after all. >> >> ... my fingers are all thumbs when it comes to hardware >> development. I'm more >> interested in "low level" programming > This would hardly be "development"; nearly everything in the Trump >Card design is readily available and easy to find, with the possible >exception of the Z8581 clock generator. All you need is a bunch of >parts, a blank ISA prototyping board, a wire-wrap gun, and some time! > -Dave Just building the card doesn't seem to be impossible even for me ... ... but i don't believe, that it would be working as i can rate my skills very well :); and for debugging, i don't have any tools available. Maybe i'm only too lazy ... ... at least, it's quite astonishing, that nothing seems to be remaining but the Byte article describing the card. Steve Ciarcia gave some hints (Sweet Microsystems, Nielsen Ratings) but they didn't help; and Google (and others) gave no reference to current owners. Other similar cards (Definicon, Opus, ...) show up on eBay from time to time, but no Trump Card ... Ciao Bernd From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:20:54 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:20:54 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709110748h6282065cp77a92b5049ee54fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709110627y33a4dcdcpe44812be09a22497@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709110748h6282065cp77a92b5049ee54fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709111020p7e17ebb1k5b6d306da21dbe@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Rob wrote: > On 11/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > > > (Hmm... back in the 486 days, pre-ATX, some of the really cheap > > > chinese clone PC cases we used to buy, themselves came with a sheet of > > > stickers for you to apply to the case to describe the ports. > > > Individual labels for mouse, serial, monitor, keyboard, printer, scsi, > > > scanner, etc. All in written out in English !) > > > > Either you're pulling my leg - which looks not to be the case - or > > you're really being extraordinarily dense. > > > > Just in case it's option B: > > > > In short clear words: > > > > Printing on paper CHEAP. Printing on case DEAR. Changing case moulding HARD. > > > > If you're seriously proposing shipping cases with /no/ labelling and a > > sheet of DIY labels, you're either deranged or very stupid, and either > > way, it's not worth trying to reason with you. > > > > Excuse me, I don't think it's at all called for to revert to personal insults. Boy, you're a po-faced lot around here, aren't you? Do you take everything this seriously and personally? How do you survive on the Internet at large? No offence intented, and my apologies if it was given. I can't promise not to do it again, though. > If you care to re-read what I wrote, it was that I had experienced > exactly that. I didn't suggest it. Admitedly they were empty cases > for an OEM market, so individual stickers were the best they could > do, and we rarely used them, but that's what happened. > > Compared to the Lexmark example, though, which was exactly what retail > customers got - a printer with a panel of unmarked buttons, and a > plastic bezel printed *in their own language* for them to clip around > them. This was included in the pack with the country specific > manual, power cable etc. It would be easy to add another panel, or a > single, formatted, sticker, etc, for the connectors. > > Another example; the Epson RX425, a decidedly mass market printer, I > have upstairs, came with a paper sticker to place alongside the > buttons to explain the symbols with proper words. > > As you said yourself "Printing on paper CHEAP". Just do one for the > back as well. I can honestly say I'm impressed and that you have chosen some good kit there, then. I've not seen stick-on case labels since the days of Baby AT motherboards with all the I/O ports on flyleads - which is to say, they went out in about 1995 or so. (At which point I was a full-time writer and reviewer on Britain's best-selling PC mag, so I saw a *lot* of kit.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:23:15 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:23:15 +0100 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <46E6A0F5.3080205@gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> <46E6A0F5.3080205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709111023tc5abd46yd554c8b43ed39246@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >>> M95, eh? That's quite a modern one, isn't it - a 486 or even a Pentium? > >> It's an AMD K6-2, believe it or not. I have another mod 95 as a print > >> server. I chose it because it has two parallel ports on the > >> motherboard. I could probably switch to something that uses less juice, > >> but it's been so freakin' rock-solid that I don't feel I should screw > >> with it. It's running four printers. Two parallel, one serial and one > >> SCSI. > > > > Wow! > > > > A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? > > It's a continuous-tone dye-sub photo printer. And the serial one is > actually a pen-plotter, but I count it as a printer. Cool! > >>> I am considering trying to put my old Model 80-A21 - once the LAN > >>> server on my home net - on the Web as a webserver. I like the idea of > >>> a webserver that is significantly older than the Web itself. :-) > >> I'd consider an 8580-Axx newish. It has *gasp* CACHE! > > > > :?) Indeed. Runs Windows NT 3.51 SP5 really well for its age, too. > > > > But AFAIK, it's contemporaneous with the other Model 80s, as part of > > the original range. > > It actually came out about a year and a half later. Mid-1989? Oh really? I didn't know that. Thanks for enlightening me! > > IIRC: > > 30 - slimline desktop 8086 (ISA, MCGA) > > 50 - desktop 286 > > 60 - tower 286 > > 70 - desktop 386 > > 80 - desktop 386 > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > I assume this was supposed to read "tower 386". I did. My apologies; I screwed up when reformatting from a paragraph to a list. > >> I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! > > > > [Boggle] > > > >> I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. > > > > I don't have the space, but it was the state of the art when I started > > my first job & I still have great affection for it. The only things > > I've seen which rival it for build quality are the PowerMac G5s and > > later. > > You should at least pick up one of the last-generation microchannel > RS/6000s. Some of them can still be considered reasonably quick today. Strangely tempting... But I need to get rid of about half a dozen old PCs and Macs first. Anyone in SE England want a free 68k Mac? Got 1 or 2 PowerPCs, too. I'll fix it up & put a clean install of the OS on first... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:24:09 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:24:09 +0100 Subject: Spanish speaker for spanish radio interview? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0709111024w4a41404lf3400dd548b410d5@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Does anyone speak fluent Spanish? If so, there's a spanish-language radio > station in Florida that wants to do a 7 minute interview about vintage > computers today at 2:15PM (Eastern). Losciento mucho. Hablo solo un poco, y tambien, estoy en Inglaterra. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:35:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:35:34 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709111017v37cc9eefhc97d161286776673@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0709110625q64043e02o982a6513323983fb@mail.gmail.com> <46E6A112.9000806@gmail.com> <575131af0709111017v37cc9eefhc97d161286776673@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E6D1E6.7010603@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > For the plague of disastrously bad keyboards, I blame those appalling > Blackberry devices. Pagers on steroids, they only exist because the > USA's mobile phone network is so ludicrously backwards that pagers - > dead in most of the world by 1995 or so - persisted into the 21st > century. I've had a phone in my pocket that could send and receive > written messages of a few hundred characters for 11 years now, and I > was a /very/ late adopter. > > Anyone who could design a Blackberry and think it was a decent usable > interface on a pocket-sized device for entering text has, I submit, > never held a Psion 5 or 5mx. Or, if one insists on a tiny ladies' > jeans pocket sized object, a Psion Revo. You are aware that Blackberry came out for GSM before it came out for PCS, right? US GSM networks aren't all that different from European ones. Peace... Sridhar From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Sep 11 13:49:43 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:49:43 -0300 Subject: Jaguar Blaster (was Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?) References: Message-ID: <003001c7f4a5$2fd0e930$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> There was also an Atari Jaguar on an PCI card, Creative Labs' "Jaguar >> Blaster". Maybe 3DO blaster??? Never heard of a proper jaguar blaster... From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 11 14:24:05 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:24:05 +0100 Subject: Free: PowerMac 6500/250 (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002d01c7f4a9$535813c0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Stroller wrote: > Any interest in this? It's just come from a customer of mine who's > had it from new, with compatible inkjet printer, o/s disks & virtual > PC. Where in the UK? Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.14/999 - Release Date: 10/09/2007 17:43 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 15:05:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:05:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E5D8D1.60400@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 11, 7 00:52:49 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an ISA card. Never > > seen it, though > > Looking at a photo of one of mine (the one with the additional I/O controller > and Acorn bus connector), it seems to be an ARM2 CPU - not an ARM1 as I'd > remembered. (At least Google gives the impression that the VL-2333 chip is a > second-generation). What's the difference between an ARM1 and ARM2? I only have ARM 2 datasheets. Certainly when I was looking at the ARM1 evaluation system I have for the Beebm the pinouts of the ARM1 processor seemed identical to those of the ARM2. Maybe the PC card could take either CPU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 15:19:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:19:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 11, 7 02:02:33 am Message-ID: > > > > Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer i= > s > > totally beyond me... > > I never can tell with you, Tony, whether you faking it and taking the > mick, being deliberately obtuse to make some kind of point, or > genuinely think in a very strange way. I'm being deadly serious. If asomebody can't match up a 7 character word ('printer') no matter what their native language is, then I don't want them anywhere near any of my computers. > > The point, as I have already spelled out abundantly clearly, is that > someone may be perfectly literate and fluent in multiple languages and > completely unfamiliar with English or even the Roman script. So? I don't speak a word of Chinese. I can't read a single Chinese character. But if computer connectors were labelled in Chinese. I'll bet I could learn the necessary few chracters in a couple of days _at most_. [...] > It is much simpler for everyone concerned /all over the world/ if you > just match the symbol on the end of the cable with the one on the > socket on the back of the computer. But that's exactly the point. The icons are not stadnardised. I have to recognise that the symbol that the computer manufacturer uses is, say, a 'prionter' Different manufacturers have different ideas of what symbol to use. OK, the user manual _should_ explain that. But you know as well as I do that manuals go astray. At least if the connectors are labelled with 'words' of a human language, I have a chance to find a dictionary of said language, or somebody who speaks it, or... You seem to be in favour of replacing a 'word' that a subset of the world's population understand naturally ,and which the rest have to learn, with an icon that nobody understands naturally and that therefore everyon has to learn. I can't see the benefit in doing that. It's the same sort of ridiculous idea that caused a bookshop I liked to have to close down because it couldn't provide wheelchair access. Apparently it's better that nobody can have access to said books than that a subset of the population can. > > Yes, the word is easier, *in a single country*. But the computer > market is, and has been for many decades, an international one. And in all other countries the foreign word and the icon _both_ have to be learnt. > > Hint: never wonder why there was a Psion 1, 2, 3 and 5 but not a 4? > > Because "4" in Mandarin Chinese - a tonal language where a single > syllable has from 5 to 9 totally different meanings depending on the > tone of voice in which you sing it - Chinese is sung, not spoken - the > word for "4" is the same as the word for "death". You can't indicate > the tone in non-Chinese writing, so when you write 4, you write death. > > A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious > reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing > business in China does the same. This sounds like an urban legend to me. Like the one about the Chevvy (?) Nova not selling well in Mexico because 'No Va' means 'it doesn't go' [To go marginally on-topic, I once used that joke when I pulled most of a DG Nova 1200 out of a skip. SInce there were bits missing, including the lights-n-switches board, I said 'Nova -- It doesn't go'] Are you seriously telling me that version 4/model 4/etc of any product never sells in China???? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 15:22:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:22:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E590E9.25276.35A8C6DD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 10, 7 06:46:01 pm Message-ID: > > Symbols and labels on connectors on consumer devices have always > smelled like a hack to me. It would seem that the optimal solution > is to design the connectors so that it's IMPOSSIBLE to mate them up > improperly. Why have a mouse that can plug into the same mini-DIN > connector into which a keyboard can plug? Why not devise each > connector with a uniquely-shaped and sized receptacle and plug (a > simple receptacle collar and molded cable head would do) so that > installation becomes a matter of plugging the triangular shaped plug > into the like-shaped receptacle? I've never heard of anyone trying > to plug an RJ-45 network connector into a DB-25 printer socket. And then have me moaning (both at the time and 10 years on) that I can't get the connectors, and in the latter case I can't even buy the complete cables any more. No thanks, I'll stick to stnadard connectors that I can buy almost anywhere. -tony > > For an extreme example of the wrong-headedness of thoughtless design, > consider the lowly "wall wart" power supply. As an exercise, take > all of the warts from all of the devices in your house and place them > in a pile in the middle of a room. Draw the curtains and turn off > the lights and try to match warts up with devices without toasting > any. > > How the seeing-impaired manage in this world is beyond comprehension. > > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 15:26:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:26:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 10, 7 07:07:03 pm Message-ID: > Why can't they just open the box and look at the circuitry? That's what I normally do (and incidentally, it tells me how many of the handshake pins on an RS232 conenctor are actually used), but then I'm me :-) > If it's got a UART, and maybe some 1488,1489 chips, then it is serial, > etc. > I don't know much of anything about electronics, but I can still usually > recognize what ports are for. OK... i have a couple of devices here, both as it happens made by the same company, although this interface is not specific to that company. They each have a pair of DB25 plugs on them. Pin 7 on the DB25s is connectoed to the system 0V rail, pin 1 is chassis ground. The drivers on all the DB25s are 1488s, the reveivers are 1489s. On each device _one_ of the connectors is a normal RS232 port. The other isn't. What is it? A clue: I had to wire up and adapter cable for one of the units. I used a red hood on one of the DB25s and a blue hood on the other, and I had a good logical reason for picking those colours. -tony From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Tue Sep 11 15:59:28 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:59:28 +0100 Subject: Free: PowerMac 6500/250 (UK) In-Reply-To: <002d01c7f4a9$535813c0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <002d01c7f4a9$535813c0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <0DA2B53D-76A4-4E5D-8CDA-92E61C2EFEA7@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 11 Sep 2007, at 20:24, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Stroller wrote: >> Any interest in this? It's just come from a customer of mine who's >> had it from new, with compatible inkjet printer, o/s disks & virtual >> PC. > > Where in the UK? Sorry - Milton Keynes. About 5 minutes from junction 14 of the M1, about halfway twixt London & Birmingham. Speaking of which I noticed today on section of my town now has new signage. As I turned off a main road past a couple of industrial units and towards a long street of very typical suburban houses I noticed the greeting, "Welcome to Bletchley, home of the codebreakers." Stroller. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Sep 11 16:42:07 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:42:07 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070911214207.B86DDBA4574@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > > Hint: never wonder why there was a Psion 1, 2, 3 and 5 but not a 4? > > > > Because "4" in Mandarin Chinese - a tonal language where a single > > syllable has from 5 to 9 totally different meanings depending on the > > tone of voice in which you sing it - Chinese is sung, not spoken - the > > word for "4" is the same as the word for "death". You can't indicate > > the tone in non-Chinese writing, so when you write 4, you write death. > > > > A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious > > reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing > > business in China does the same. > > This sounds like an urban legend to me. Like the one about the Chevvy (?) > Nova not selling well in Mexico because 'No Va' means 'it doesn't go' > [To go marginally on-topic, I once used that joke when I pulled most of a > DG Nova 1200 out of a skip. SInce there were bits missing, including the > lights-n-switches board, I said 'Nova -- It doesn't go'] > > Are you seriously telling me that version 4/model 4/etc of any product > never sells in China???? And the most important cultural marketing mistake of all, in French "Chateau" literally means "cat water". As a result, all french-speaking persons guffaw whenever they see the word applied to a classy establishment. Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 16:59:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110625q64043e02o982a6513323983fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0709110625q64043e02o982a6513323983fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070911145032.R90552@shell.lmi.net> > > Why can't they just open the box and look at the circuitry? > > If it's got a UART, and maybe some 1488,1489 chips, then it is serial, > > etc. On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > [Laughter] > Hang on... that *was* a joke, right? Perhaps an exaggeration, but even with my total lack of knowledge of electronics, how else can I identify the ports on an unknown machine? A few chips are fairly obvious, such as 6845, UARTs, etc. Yes, I have seen people connect monitor to mouse port (DE9), serial and parallel printers to the wrong ports, etc. > > There is at least one documented case of a fatality from the frustration > > of "RS232" printer interfacing. > Do tell? A man bought a computer and a printer; took them to a computer store for interfacing; after six weeks without success, he shot and killed the owner of the store. I had read about it in a newspaper. When I mentioned it to Joe Campbell, he dug up an account (Infoworld?) of it to include in either his "RS232 Solution", or in "C Programmer's Guide to Serial Communication" I don't have convenient access in the next few weeks to my books, notes, etc. Sorry. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Sep 11 17:02:43 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer rescue Message-ID: <921506.29992.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, folks. A few weeks ago, I sent out a last-minute request for help with a large computer rescue on the east coast. As was not entirely expected, no one was able to make it on such short notice during the week, however all worked out well in the end. I have some pictures of the "haul" as it arrived in San Jose up at www.ddp116.org . --Bill From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 11 16:58:15 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709112202.SAA13441@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > This sounds like an urban legend to me. [...] > Are you seriously telling me that version 4/model 4/etc of any > product never sells in China???? I don't know about China. But I've studied a little Japanese, and something very similar is true there. You'll sometimes hear the digit 4 as "yon" rather than "shi" because "shi" means something negative - death, I think, but I'm not at all sure of that (it's been too long). Apparently - I've never been to Japan, but this report came from someone who has - buildings in Japan don't have 4th floors, much the way buildings in North America don't have 13th floors. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 17:04:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110644m11808533vda765cf545eb0a42@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> <46E63FC2.3AD17F9B@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709110644m11808533vda765cf545eb0a42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070911150349.K90552@shell.lmi.net> > Oh, FFS! > Hint: the word "you" in colloquial English usage does not always refer > directly to an individual or to the person being addressed. > For example: "If you want to learn to fly a plane, you have to > demonstrate good vision and a degree of numeracy". This would be a > perfectly reasonable statement in a magazine or newspaper article, > without any implication that every reader of that journal is an > aspiring pilot. When you use the "impersonal YOU", you run a risk of offending those who take it personally. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 11 17:22:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:22:11 -0700 Subject: Moto MVME121 paper In-Reply-To: <091120070351.28959.46E610BE000013AF0000711F21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <091120070351.28959.46E610BE000013AF0000711F21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <46E6B2A3.16475.3A1484EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2007 at 3:51, g-wright at att.net wrote: > If you have not found a home for this, I will take it. > > Jerry Wright > JLC inc. > 1517 So Central Ave > Kent, Wa. 98032 > > Just let me know how much and where to send it. Hi Jerry, Al Kossov has expressed an interest in this, ostensibly to scan it and put it up on Bitsavers. I'm sure he'd yield to you, but I thought I'd get your druthers on this first. Either way, you'd get the info. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 17:32:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer rescue In-Reply-To: <921506.29992.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <435331.80810.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> holy Toledo!!! I must have missed the post, I is on the east coast. What did that operation coast pray tell? --- William Maddox wrote: > Hi, folks. > > A few weeks ago, I sent out a last-minute request > for > help with a large computer rescue on the east coast. > > As was not entirely expected, no one was able to > make > it on such short notice during the week, however all > worked out well in the end. I have some pictures of > the "haul" as > it arrived in San Jose up at www.ddp116.org . > > --Bill > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Sep 11 17:36:53 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vince Briel's Micro-KIM workshop at VCFX Message-ID: Vince Briel's Micro-KIM workshop at VCFX is now open for registration: http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/workshop.php $99 which includes the kit and personal instruction from the man, the myth, the legend himself! Space is limited and Vince's workshops sell out fast, so get in while you can. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:52:00 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:52:00 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070911145032.R90552@shell.lmi.net> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0709110625q64043e02o982a6513323983fb@mail.gmail.com> <20070911145032.R90552@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709111552n2ba98216r7e4a4cc443587852@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Why can't they just open the box and look at the circuitry? > > > If it's got a UART, and maybe some 1488,1489 chips, then it is serial, > > > etc. > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > [Laughter] > > Hang on... that *was* a joke, right? > > Perhaps an exaggeration, but even with my total lack of knowledge of > electronics, how else can I identify the ports on an unknown machine? > A few chips are fairly obvious, such as 6845, UARTs, etc. Most people who use computers don't know what a "chip" is. If you are capable of identifying an integrated circuit from its part number, you are a veritable electronics guru compared to 5.9999999 billion people. > A man bought a computer and a printer; took them to a computer store for > interfacing; after six weeks without success, he shot and killed the owner > of the store. I had read about it in a newspaper. When I mentioned it to > Joe Campbell, he dug up an account (Infoworld?) of it to include in either > his "RS232 Solution", or in "C Programmer's Guide to Serial Communication" > I don't have convenient access in the next few weeks to my books, notes, > etc. Sorry. Remarkable. Not heard that one before. OTOH, I have set up many a serial printer. RS232 was a complete pain in the **** and I am very glad to see it die. Start bits, stop bits, word length, parity, baud rate - hateful. Apple could do it right in 1984; there was no good reason for everyone else in the industry to screw it up. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:00:46 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:00:46 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709111600j31d60a51ua369fc74367f8d92@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer i= > > s > > > totally beyond me... > > > > I never can tell with you, Tony, whether you faking it and taking the > > mick, being deliberately obtuse to make some kind of point, or > > genuinely think in a very strange way. > > I'm being deadly serious. If asomebody can't match up a 7 character word > ('printer') no matter what their native language is, then I don't want > them anywhere near any of my computers. Why should certain people be put at a disadvantage in dealing with a foreign language, script or alphabet, when a simple icon is international? You may not like icons, but the rest of the world does, which is why every desktop computer, every mobile phone, every PDA and millions of the servers in existence today are entirely driven by iconic, graphical user interfaces. > > The point, as I have already spelled out abundantly clearly, is that > > someone may be perfectly literate and fluent in multiple languages and > > completely unfamiliar with English or even the Roman script. > > So? > > I don't speak a word of Chinese. I can't read a single Chinese character. > But if computer connectors were labelled in Chinese. I'll bet I could > learn the necessary few chracters in a couple of days _at most_. If you can't remember that a box with a piece of paper coming out of it means "printer", then you have no hope whatsoever. I suspect that you have never actually looked at written Chinese in your life from this comment. > > It is much simpler for everyone concerned /all over the world/ if you > > just match the symbol on the end of the cable with the one on the > > socket on the back of the computer. > > But that's exactly the point. The icons are not stadnardised. I have to > recognise that the symbol that the computer manufacturer uses is, say, a > 'prionter' Different manufacturers have different ideas of what symbol to > use. Interfaces that predate GUIs aren't very standardised. On the other hand, those of the GUI era are entirely standardised and never vary, such as USB, Firewire and so on. Even the SCSI symbol - a diamond with a line through one corner - is pretty much universal due to the prevalence of the Mac in pushing SCSI on the desktop. > > OK, the user manual _should_ explain that. But you know as well as I do > that manuals go astray. At least if the connectors are labelled with > 'words' of a human language, I have a chance to find a dictionary of said > language, or somebody who speaks it, or... > > You seem to be in favour of replacing a 'word' that a subset of the > world's population understand naturally ,and which the rest have to > learn, with an icon that nobody understands naturally and that therefore > everyon has to learn. I can't see the benefit in doing that. It's the > same sort of ridiculous idea that caused a bookshop I liked to have to > close down because it couldn't provide wheelchair access. Apparently it's > better that nobody can have access to said books than that a subset of > the population can. It's about not pushing one person or region's language in favour of anyone else. It's about being culturally neutral. This is a good thing. > > Yes, the word is easier, *in a single country*. But the computer > > market is, and has been for many decades, an international one. > > And in all other countries the foreign word and the icon _both_ have to > be learnt. Who has to learn the word? Who is compelling anyone to do that? > > Hint: never wonder why there was a Psion 1, 2, 3 and 5 but not a 4? > > > > Because "4" in Mandarin Chinese - a tonal language where a single > > syllable has from 5 to 9 totally different meanings depending on the > > tone of voice in which you sing it - Chinese is sung, not spoken - the > > word for "4" is the same as the word for "death". You can't indicate > > the tone in non-Chinese writing, so when you write 4, you write death. > > > > A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious > > reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing > > business in China does the same. > > This sounds like an urban legend to me. I am somewhat offended by that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstitions_of_Malaysian_Chinese > Like the one about the Chevvy (?) > Nova not selling well in Mexico because 'No Va' means 'it doesn't go' It certainly does mean that. I know little about cars, though. Additionally, a computer is called "counter" - ordinators, /ordenadora/ - in Spanish, because "computadora" sounds like "con puta Dora" - meaning "with Dora the whore". > Are you seriously telling me that version 4/model 4/etc of any product > never sells in China???? I am cautious of sweeping generalisations, but savvy companies avoid it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:01:29 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:01:29 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels In-Reply-To: <20070911150349.K90552@shell.lmi.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> <46E63FC2.3AD17F9B@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709110644m11808533vda765cf545eb0a42@mail.gmail.com> <20070911150349.K90552@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709111601m153ef7ffg7d25fb038c1eabc@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Oh, FFS! > > Hint: the word "you" in colloquial English usage does not always refer > > directly to an individual or to the person being addressed. > > For example: "If you want to learn to fly a plane, you have to > > demonstrate good vision and a degree of numeracy". This would be a > > perfectly reasonable statement in a magazine or newspaper article, > > without any implication that every reader of that journal is an > > aspiring pilot. > > When you use the "impersonal YOU", you run a risk of offending those who > take it personally. It's a risk I'm willing to take. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 11 18:29:12 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:29:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Computer rescue Message-ID: <1189553352.46e724c857fc9@www.jblaser.org> William Maddox said: > it on such short notice during the week, however all > worked out well in the end. I have some pictures of > the "haul" as > it arrived in San Jose up at www.ddp116.org . Wow! Very, very nice haul. Whatever the expense was, it sure looks like you got your money's worth. Is this system going to be on display somewhere during VCMX timeframe? I don't know if it is going to live in the warehouse where it was deposited by the truck, but it sure would be fun to have a closeup view of the system, blinking lights preferred! :-) Congrats on saving a great collection! - Jared From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 11 18:30:30 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:30:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Computer rescue Message-ID: <1189553430.46e72516e40ee@www.jblaser.org> William Maddox said: > it on such short notice during the week, however all > worked out well in the end. I have some pictures of > the "haul" as > it arrived in San Jose up at www.ddp116.org . Wow! Very, very nice haul. Whatever the expense was, it sure looks like you got your money's worth. Is this system going to be on display somewhere during VCMX timeframe? I don't know if it is going to live in the warehouse where it was deposited by the truck, but it sure would be fun to have a closeup view of the system, blinking lights preferred! ;-) Or, not, even. Congrats on saving a great collection! - Jared From stevew at ka6s.com Tue Sep 11 18:41:49 2007 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steve Wilson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:41:49 -0700 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: What's the difference between an ARM1 and ARM2? Message-ID: <200709111641.49390.stevew@ka6s.com> Tony Duell asked about the difference between the two processors - here is what I found after a little google work; Steve The stuff below was brazenly copied from: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=ARM2 "As soon as the ARM1 project was completed, work began on its successor, the ARM2, which later in 1985 became the first commercially available RISC processor. This processor was intended to correct some problems noted with the first design, and was aimed specifically for use in the Acorn Archimedes series of personal computers. While the ARM1 was a success as far as it went, there were some performance problems which needed to be fixed before it could be realistically used in the Archimedes. One of the key problems was a lack of hardware multiply support. This led to a software routine being used to do multiplication, using shifts and adds, which was "horribly slow", according to Steve Furber. This was fixed in the ARM2, by adding two instructions: MUL (multiply) and MLA (multiply with accumulate). These allowed the ARM2 to be realistically used for mathematical calculation, and very simple digital signal processing, in particular generating synthesised sound. Another issue which still affects most ARM processors even today is the lack of floating point hardware. Acorn decided to address this problem by adding hardware co-processor support to the ARM2, and at a later date intended to ship an optional floating point accelerator. Ultimately, the ARM2 FPA was never produced, despite demand from the Acorn user community: the first hardware FP came as an option with the ARM3 powered A5000, and around the same time a third party ARM3 and FPA upgrade was marketed by Simtec for all Archimedes computers. Finally, the design team noted that banking only registers R10 to R15 in fast interrupt mode was slightly over-frugal, and added R8 and R9 to that list. This increased performance of the very common FIQ by lowering memory accesses to stack registers. The ARM2 was manufactured at a slightly smaller fabrication size than the ARM1, 2.5?m as opposed to 3.5?m, had just over 25,000 transistors, and ran at 8MHz." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 19:02:43 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:02:43 -0500 Subject: Vince Briel's Micro-KIM workshop at VCFX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/11/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Vince Briel's Micro-KIM workshop at VCFX is now open for registration: > > http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/workshop.php > > $99 which includes the kit and personal instruction from the man, the > myth, the legend himself! Very nice. I have one of his boards, and I can say it's very nice. I'm still collecting the parts to complete it, I've been working with the 6502 for decades, and the MicroKIM looks like a modern classic. If you like the 6502 and are going to VCFX, you should jump on the workshop. -ethan From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 19:29:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:29:14 -0500 Subject: HP75 computer Message-ID: <51ea77730709111729v1a372b3jb3237106e9585a46@mail.gmail.com> Here's my latest thrift score: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/1352040166/ Two questions: - Does anyone know the story with the AT&T rebadging? Was it sold this way? Internal use only? What was it used for there? - How the @!%# do you get it out of the docking pod? I'm beginning to think it's been bolted in somehow by AT&T. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 21:45:02 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:45:02 -0500 Subject: HP 2624B terminal on ebay Message-ID: <51ea77730709111945i97c8573l146ea73a3f4d23ec@mail.gmail.com> Not mine, just thought it rare enough to be worth a link: Item 110169093514 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110169093514 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 11 17:52:00 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:52:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <00cc01c7f407$4e2a9370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I agree with that. When I first got my laptop (around March this year) and saw the USB symbol for the first time I had no clue what it meant. of course, I now know what it represents and it does look a bit like heiroglyphics, hehe. I know my Amiga had all the sockets round the back labelled in English and I think my ZX Spectrum 128K did too (been 6 years since I last used it). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Ensor wrote: Hi, > Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls >are a thing of the past.... Amen to that. Many devices nowadays are labelled with what appear to be heiroglyphics.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 23:28:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > I agree with that. When I first got my laptop (around March this year) > and saw the USB symbol for the first time I had no clue what it meant. > of course, I now know what it represents and it does look a bit like > heiroglyphics, hehe. . . . and Egyption hieroglyphics look like a subset of APL. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 11 23:33:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:33:13 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709111552n2ba98216r7e4a4cc443587852@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com>, <20070911145032.R90552@shell.lmi.net>, <575131af0709111552n2ba98216r7e4a4cc443587852@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E70999.13182.3B68328A@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2007 at 23:52, Liam Proven wrote: > Most people who use computers don't know what a "chip" is. We call it a "French Fry" here in the US. Pommes frites elsewhere? Haven't the faintest what Madarin for one is... :) Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 11 23:34:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:34:30 -0400 Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sep 12, 2007, at 12:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I agree with that. When I first got my laptop (around March this >> year) >> and saw the USB symbol for the first time I had no clue what it >> meant. >> of course, I now know what it represents and it does look a bit like >> heiroglyphics, hehe. > > . . . and Egyption hieroglyphics look like a subset of APL. They are! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bear at typewritten.org Tue Sep 11 23:34:56 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:34:56 -0700 Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3A55E886-5A35-40E7-A1F4-BF5E2D33D045@typewritten.org> On Sep 11, 2007, at 9:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and Egyption hieroglyphics look like a subset of APL. Funny you should mention that, Martin Ziskind recently pitched me a total salesjob on the merits of APL. It was quite surreal. ok bear From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Sep 11 23:39:34 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:39:34 -0700 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070911091622.0ad85e90@mail> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com><46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com><575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com><46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com><575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070911091622.0ad85e90@mail> Message-ID: <2f9801c7f4f6$edb62d60$6a01a8c0@liberator> Some of the more recent Xerox color copiers/printers (ok, 10 ish years ago) were SCSI based, and came with a "rendering engine" that was a headless Sparc server. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:18 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver At 08:37 AM 9/11/2007, Liam Proven wrote: >Wow! A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? It wasn't a odd choice in pre-USB, pre-Firewire prehistory. If you need to move lots of data to a raster printer, SCSI was an option. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 23:51:15 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <3A55E886-5A35-40E7-A1F4-BF5E2D33D045@typewritten.org> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net> <3A55E886-5A35-40E7-A1F4-BF5E2D33D045@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20070911214815.G5060@shell.lmi.net> > > . . . and Egyption hieroglyphics look like a subset of APL. On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, r.stricklin wrote: > Funny you should mention that, Martin Ziskind recently pitched me a > total salesjob on the merits of APL. It was quite surreal. It's nice and terse. A word processor could probably be written in one line of code. 'course nobody but the original author of code can read it, and even the original author only has about a 1 day window of still being able to follow it. I couldn't get the original IBM PC APL to run on newer machines. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 11 23:58:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:58:11 -0700 Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <3A55E886-5A35-40E7-A1F4-BF5E2D33D045@typewritten.org> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net>, <3A55E886-5A35-40E7-A1F4-BF5E2D33D045@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2007 at 21:34, r.stricklin wrote: > Funny you should mention that, Martin Ziskind recently pitched me a > total salesjob on the merits of APL. It was quite surreal. It appears that there are no lukewarm opinions about APL. Either you *really* like it and evangelize constantly about it (sort of like Forth) or you ignore it and sometimes refer to it as "that Iverson thing"... Cheers, Chuck (put me in the "Iverson thing" camp) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 12 00:33:29 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nova 4 has been claimed Message-ID: The Nova 4 that I posted about needing a new home has been claimed. Thanks! I'm sure you'll hear some stories from the new owner in a couple weeks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 11 06:50:14 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:50:14 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:24:01 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sunday 09 September 2007 16:04, Allison wrote: >> >A while back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a box" >> >systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I think >> > that's the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it. >> >> Multibus, very nice bus and expensive cards. I have a few multibus cards. >> Intel used it in their MDS800 and a few otehrs as well. > >I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike me as >being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-) It cost more because it was industrial strength, larger boards, regulated power and so on. >> >Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going there >> >(RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their "network" >> >out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case is >> > none. I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more cards, >> > and somehow or other make it work. >> > >> >And speaking of the networking aspect of it, do any of you guys know how >> > they did it? I recall one time getting a glimpse of some system or other >> > that was S-100 but also had a set of connectors at thet op of each card, >> > which is what they used for their inter-processor linking rather than >> > trying to push it through the bus. The reason for this is not apparent >> > to me. >> >> Many ways to do it, using a commmon port or a pool of common memory for >> in box networking and serial ports as well. There were also ARCnet, pre >> Ethernet and even Ethernet. > >I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade show, and >in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace, though I >don't forsee me ever using them. ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price range of a hard disk then. Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982 the two largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and Dupont(internal) and they were around 50 nodes! There were a few simple schemes but excluding myself how many hobbiests back then had two or more systems? >> >I've also seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was supposed >> > to work through serial ports, which pretty many machines had, althogh >> > they appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to wire-OR RS232 >> > signals, which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. And what >> > software support there was for this wasn't real apparent. >> >> That was a poor mans networking. Basically the serial ports were used as >> CD/CSMA bus and there was some protocal like Ethernet but slower and could >> use the usually common async chips. I have such a net going for my CP/M >> crates and all. > >What does that take on the software side of things? Not a whole lot, CPnet could be used but it was easy enough to use plain vanilla CP/M2.2 and add your own BIOS drivers for "networked functions". defineatly home grown. >> >I dunno, I've just got this fascination for assorted 8-bit parts talking >> > to each other through some smallish number of wires, I guess it's easier >> > to deal with than some of the big iron you guys handle regularly, which >> > I can't afford to go get never mind housing. And I've seen multiple >> > processors used in stuff already, as in some musical equipment that >> > passed "event information" from one chip to the next with only a couple >> > of pins, or the daisywheel printer that had _four_ 804x procesors in it >> > for different functions. >> >> This is not a new thing. > >Nope. It's just my particular fascination these days. And probably a lot >easier to deal with than lots of big iron. :-) > >> >TurboDOS is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's >> > too much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software, >> > stuff I'd leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same old >> > Console / Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to something >> > different or unique. I found the same thing to be the case when I looked >> > at FORTH, too much of the usual stuff, and that was supposed to have >> > been used in some control applications? I must've missed something >> > there... >> >> ???? Whats the question or point? > >Just that I'd like to see some stuff that isn't oriented that way. You have a >SBC, you obviously need some way to talk to it, but the standard "console" >stuff gets a little old, I probably don't want to hook a printer up to it, >and may not even want a disk drive of any sort, depending on what I wanna do >with it. I'm up for exploring some alternative approaches to doing things. >Unfortunately the embedded stuff that's out there doesn't satisfy too often, >the design being too specific to the app, source code not available, etc. >I'm thinking that it should be possible to have some sort of a more >generalized framework to hang things on, and then you could optimize it for >specific uses, or expand it in different directions. Even from the earliest >days "personal" computers all seemed to take pretty much the same approach to >things... Well by hook or by grook the average PC still has a serial port, some have two or atleast a USB port for a USB to serial. It's not that hard to write software to use that serial as a access from the SBC for things like a remote printer or disk and people have and are doing it. It's not "networking" in the full blown sense but none of the IO of a SBC is required to direct connection to a printer or terminal (ignoring rom based stuff). >I realized in other messaging a while back that it's been well over a year >since I fired up a soldering iron, and this is a bad thing. :-) And even >then, it was a matter of scrapping stuff, not building anything new and >interesting. I need to get out of that particular rut and get back to it, >or there's no point to all those parts I've been scrounging for decades. >Maybe one of these days I will... When you do tell us about it. Seems these days I get to maybe one of the major computer construction based projects maybe two per year. But I split my time between RF projects and digital projects. Allison > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 11 07:10:46 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:10:46 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JO70048YDSZHX76@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:51:12 -0700 > To: "Roy J. Tellason" , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 10 Sep 2007 at 16:24, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >> I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike me as >> being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-) > >For the purist, Multibus has a lot more going for it than any of the >"hobbyist" buses. If you look at the signal layout, it appears that >some thought actually went into the design. AFAIK, Multibus cards in >some incarnation are still being produced or at least sold. > >And the MDS-800 was built like a battleship. Thats and understatement. If you ever moved a MDS800 it was a battleship. >re: CP/M Networking: > >> What does that take on the software side of things? > >A CP/M add-on called CP/NET. The downside is that it takes valuable >memory. CPnet was less than half the software. You still needed a nios, network bios which was often unser created for the specific IO used to network. >PC's had a number of "cheap" networking setups. I've got one here >called "The $25 Network", basically run through serial (maybe >parallel) ports. There were others, some with low-cost cards, such >as "The Invisible Network". I wonder if a ring could be set up using >the old DOS Interlink. Many of those "cheap" PC networking schemes were found in the 8bit world. The interlink like scheme I'd done for going between my S100 crates back in '81 to solve the problem is limted disk and more than one computer needing a disk. CP/M or most other OSs for non 8080/z80 could easily be fooled into redirecting disk IO to a serial port. Though CP/M was modular enough and most widespread it was most often hacked that way. There is however no rule that says a OS must talk to a disk as storage and once that is clear then it's easy to cobble up a packet protocal that transmits the needed data across a serial or parallel port to a willing and enabled host. Some systems like the big S100 crates or multibus running MPM used the bus and some common memory so that multiple CPUs typically z80 with 128k ram, rom and serial IO plus a bus interface and memory manangement for off board memeory. MPM would be the server and CP/M would be the local cpus that users interacted with. It wasn't seen often as it was expensive to ahve the hardware and the average hobbiest at the time rarely had more than one fully functional system and maybe a SBC of the KIM-1, EVK68, AIM65 or SDK85 level. By '81 I had a NS* Horizon, Netronics explorer8085, an Altair, and two NEC PDA-80(sorta s100) for the 8080/8085/z80 realm alone. Only two had a disk controller but they all ran CP/M. When the NS* got a hard disk since that was a $1K investment at the time sharing that resource with the deprived systems was important as back then I didn't have a swarm of floppy drives. So having read and seen networks in use I figured sensing all that over a fast serial port was not unreasonable and after some thought and a few tries it worked. These days people use PCs for that but I personally would rather program z80 than 80x86. >MS-DOS has had some flavor of networking "hooks" for a very long >time. CD-ROM access is implemented as a networked device. I've >implemented a number of foreign filesystem drivers using networking >where file naming conventions or oddball block sizes weren't amenable >to normal DOS filesystem conventions. Thats PCs. ;) Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 11 08:43:43 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:43:43 +0100 Subject: Symbols on computers (was: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <439218.60892.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <439218.60892.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709111443.43586.gordon@gjcp.net> On Monday 10 September 2007 04:49:46 Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Macintosh computers fairly early on used symbols, and > the "Programmer's Switch" option featured some > confusing little pictures to represent what should > have been labeled "RESET" and "INTERRUPT". Except for models for the Elbonian market, where "reset" is a word that would stop a clock and "interrupt" isn't much better, thus necessitating a different case moulding, or careful doctoring of each unit with a Dremel, or something. Or, you could just have a symbol, and a note in the manual (you *did* read the manual, didn't you?) explaining what it means, in whatever language you want. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 11 09:29:51 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:29:51 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110627y33a4dcdcpe44812be09a22497@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709110627y33a4dcdcpe44812be09a22497@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709111529.51415.gordon@gjcp.net> On Tuesday 11 September 2007 14:27:57 Liam Proven wrote: > If you're seriously proposing shipping cases with /no/ labelling and a > sheet of DIY labels, you're either deranged or very stupid, and either > way, it's not worth trying to reason with you. And yet I have a Microvax with the buttons labelled in English, and tucked away in a little envelope inside the case a sheet of near-identical sticky plastic labels just like the one on the front, but in various other languages. One of the labels is missing, presumably the English one on the front panel. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 11 09:33:29 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:33:29 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709111533.29053.gordon@gjcp.net> On Monday 10 September 2007 19:14:37 Jules Richardson wrote: > If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French > to get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. I have a French car (actually, I have several). The dashboard warning lights and switches are labelled with little symbols. The symbols are pretty much the same as on the dashboard and switches of my fiance?'s German car, and my Mum's Japanese van. Oddly enough, among the symbols on the dashboard of my car is one simply labelled "STOP", which is the same across all versions in the UK and Europe. It lights up when something really bad happens, along with a more descriptive warning light indicating loss of oil pressure, or hydraulic pressure or fluid level, or serious overheating. Why "STOP" and not another little symbol I don't know. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 11 11:00:28 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:00:28 +0100 Subject: Mac Beige C3 to HP 98789A SOG monitor? In-Reply-To: <46D714F4.1820.23B2626@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46D6EE92.18070.1A538D4@cclist.sydex.com> <449685.75389.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <46D714F4.1820.23B2626@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709111700.28693.gordon@gjcp.net> On Friday 31 August 2007 03:05:24 Chuck Guzis wrote: > I forgot how darned heavy those old HP monitors were. I hope the > plastic case top will support it. :) I forgot how darned heavy those old HP monitors were. I hope the plastic case top will R%$^S3{""fd{34f{ NO CARRIER ;-) Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 11 11:36:41 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:36:41 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow Hard drive. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709111736.41904.gordon@gjcp.net> On Thursday 30 August 2007 18:05:30 Jeffrey Armstrong wrote: > Some Rainbow's have different character set ROMs, like the Technical > Character Set ROM, but that doesn't change the firmware version on the > boot menu. Does anyone have a dump of the character set ROMs? Gordon From stroller at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Tue Sep 11 15:56:15 2007 From: stroller at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:56:15 +0100 Subject: Free: PowerMac 6500/250 (UK) In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110640s34013756l296b57cb94c5aa2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709110640s34013756l296b57cb94c5aa2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 Sep 2007, at 14:40, Liam Proven wrote: > On 11/09/2007, Stroller wrote: >> Any interest in this? It's just come from a customer of mine who's >> had it from new, with compatible inkjet printer, o/s disks & >> virtual PC. >> >> If I don't hear any responses it'll go on the local Freecycle when >> I've shredded the disk, but I thought I'd offer here first. > > You know, with a lot of work, you can run OS X on them? > http://www.zone6400.com/files/installing_OSX.html Thanks for the heads-up, but I already have an unused iMac on my dressing table on which I could run OS X first. ;) The 6500 is a little beige for my taste by previous owner just spent right about two grand (real money, not dollars;) on a Powerbook and so I imagine that the PowerMac was a similarly high-end machine at the time. I guess it's not that old, but it's in very good condition and with o/s disks & the boxed Virtual PC software I feel it's quite a characteristic Mac of its time. Since I need to find the time to wipe the hard-drive there are a few days in which to speak up before it goes on the local freecycle, bit I know it'll be snapped up in no time on there. Stroller. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Sep 11 23:07:32 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 05:07:32 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAA4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> There's a less often used way of avoiding this problem. It's the use of 'one' as in 'If one wants to learn to fly then one should go to a good school' Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 11 September 2007 23:05 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels > Oh, FFS! > Hint: the word "you" in colloquial English usage does not always refer > directly to an individual or to the person being addressed. > For example: "If you want to learn to fly a plane, you have to > demonstrate good vision and a degree of numeracy". This would be a > perfectly reasonable statement in a magazine or newspaper article, > without any implication that every reader of that journal is an > aspiring pilot. When you use the "impersonal YOU", you run a risk of offending those who take it personally. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 12 01:01:33 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:01:33 -0600 Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net>, <3A55E886-5A35-40E7-A1F4-BF5E2D33D045@typewritten.org> <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E780BD.5070701@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It appears that there are no lukewarm opinions about APL. Either you > *really* like it and evangelize constantly about it (sort of like > Forth) or you ignore it and sometimes refer to it as "that Iverson > thing"... But I thought REAL APL only used IBM's type ball. Back then you could OVERSTRIKE ... Now days you are not so lucky. Lets get back to chinese ... that at least makes sense . :) From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 12 01:07:57 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 01:07:57 -0500 Subject: Jaguar Blaster (was Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?) In-Reply-To: <003001c7f4a5$2fd0e930$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <003001c7f4a5$2fd0e930$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46E7823D.30408@oldskool.org> Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> There was also an Atari Jaguar on an PCI card, Creative Labs' "Jaguar >>> Blaster". > > Maybe 3DO blaster??? Never heard of a proper jaguar blaster... Confirmed. It was 3DO on a card, not the Jaguar. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 12 01:10:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:10:12 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4631EA09-2851-48D3-A71C-25E059ED4A75@neurotica.com> On Sep 11, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> server. I chose it because it has two parallel ports on the >> motherboard. I could probably switch to something that uses less >> juice, >> but it's been so freakin' rock-solid that I don't feel I should screw >> with it. It's running four printers. Two parallel, one serial >> and one >> SCSI. > > Wow! > > A SCSI *printer*?! What on Earth is that? SCSI printers aren't all that uncommon, especially high-end devices. The one Sridhar is talking about used to be mine. It's an industrial-strength device that was designed to be embedded in medical imaging systems. There were two versions of that model, SCSI and GPIB. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 12 01:12:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:12:20 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <2f9801c7f4f6$edb62d60$6a01a8c0@liberator> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com><46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com><575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com><46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com><575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070911091622.0ad85e90@mail> <2f9801c7f4f6$edb62d60$6a01a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <02F99CBA-364E-4471-A516-824498723803@neurotica.com> On Sep 12, 2007, at 12:39 AM, Geoff Reed wrote: > Some of the more recent Xerox color copiers/printers (ok, 10 ish > years ago) > were SCSI based, and came with a "rendering engine" that was a > headless > Sparc server. The one in question (Sridhar's Kodak XLT7720, I'm assuming that's the one he's talking about) wasn't necessarily used in that manner. I myself used it connected directly to a Mac running MacOS 9. It had drivers that presented it as a Photoshop export device. It could be a bit finicky, but the output quality was astonishing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 02:02:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:02:57 -0500 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 9/11/07, Allison wrote: > There were a few simple schemes but excluding myself how many hobbiests > back then had two or more systems? In 1982, the year you quoted for those Arcnet networks, at age 16, I had 4 systems, a PET, a C-64, a Cosmac Elf, and a PDP-8/L (that I was trying to repair - took until 1984, when I finally tracked down a printset), but I'll grant you that at the time, the number of folks that had multiple systems were probably dwarfed by the number of folks who had only one. Of those, due to minimal I/O and/or functionality, only the PET and the C-64 were "real" systems. Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive, rather than just move files back and forth on tape, basing it upon the cable and software from a contemporary "Byte" magazine, I fabricated my own nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and the C-64, and moved stuff from one to the other over that. I might have used serial, if I'd had an ACIA-based port for my PET (there were a couple that sat in an expansion ROM socket), or if I'd understood more about the nature of serial comms and crufted up my own bit-banging routines for the PET (the C-64 had that in ROM already). I understood parallel communications, so a nybble at a time it was. Later, around 1983, when I picked up a VIC-20 on clearance for around $70, I would certainly would have liked to have had a Commodore network (based around the user port, most likely), but was unaware of anything I could build for myself, and certainly couldn't afford any of the "disk sharing" hardware I'd seen advertised to share PET disks amongst multiple machines. It took me a few more years to learn enough about serial comms and computer networking to be able to roll my own hardware and/or software, but working for a serial comms networking company had a lot to do with that. I would have loved to have been able to buy or build something inexpensive, no matter how slow, but even a multi-serial solution would have strained my high-school budget, as I presume it would have strained most hobbyists' budgets, or perhaps home networking would have gotten rolling before the days of Arcnet. I think the first network I had any hands-on experience with was AppleTalk/LocalTalk, when I helped my mother with a Corvus disk drive and a room full of 512K Macs, just before she started her own business (fortunately, by the time she did, she could afford a 20MB drive per CPU, so the network was for printing only). AppleTalk was a great step forward for home networking. It's a shame that other vendors didn't follow in Apple's footsteps for many years. I think I had an Amiga for four or five years before I attempted to even do any serial networking (using DNet). It was well after 1990 before I was able to stick an Amiga on an Ethernet network, and that was with a $300 card! (there was a Zorro Arcnet card - the A2060, but I knew I wasn't going to bother with Arcnet by that time). -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Sep 12 01:50:53 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 03:50:53 -0300 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> From: "Ethan Dicks" Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever On 9/11/07, Allison wrote: > There were a few simple schemes but excluding myself how many hobbiests > back then had two or more systems? >In 1982, the year you quoted for those Arcnet networks, at age 16, I >had 4 systems, a PET, a C-64, a Cosmac Elf, and a PDP-8/L >Of those, due to minimal I/O and/or functionality, >only the PET and the C-64 were "real" systems. >Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive, rather than just move >files back and forth on tape, basing it upon the cable and software >from a contemporary "Byte" magazine, I fabricated my own >nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and the >C-64, and moved stuff from one to the other over that. I might have >used serial, if I'd had an ACIA-based port for my PET (there were a >couple that sat in an expansion ROM socket), or if I'd understood more >about the nature of serial comms and crufted up my own bit-banging >routines for the PET (the C-64 had that in ROM already). I understood >parallel communications, so a nybble at a time it was. -------- You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? I still have the 30 footer that connected my upstairs "play" PET to the downstairs "work" one. Lots of people (especially schools) "networked" them that way in those distant days. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Sep 12 01:54:50 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 03:54:50 -0300 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <01C7F4F0.C8953AE0@MSE_D03> From: Allison Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever >CP/M or most other OSs for non 8080/z80 could easily be fooled into >redirecting disk IO to a serial port. Though CP/M was modular enough >and most widespread it was most often hacked that way. There is >however no rule that says a OS must talk to a disk as storage and once >that is clear then it's easy to cobble up a packet protocal that transmits >the needed data across a serial or parallel port to a willing and enabled >host. Some systems like the big S100 crates or multibus running MPM used >the bus and some common memory so that multiple CPUs typically z80 with >128k ram, rom and serial IO plus a bus interface and memory manangement >for off board memeory. MPM would be the server and CP/M would be the >local cpus that users interacted with. It wasn't seen often as it was >expensive to ahve the hardware and the average hobbiest at the time >rarely had more than one fully functional system and maybe a SBC >of the KIM-1, EVK68, AIM65 or SDK85 level. ============== Don't forget about external RS-232 Network hubs, like the NetCommanders et al; I had 12 AIM65s and two Cromemcos at a factory site talking to each other back in those days. Also, some of the PC local net software could use the parallel and ethernet ports as well as RS-232 and bridge among them for a peer-peer net, or a client-server model using an external hub. Now there's a question, whether Interserver can handle multiple Interlink clients (one at a time of course); anybody ever try it? mike From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 09:33:54 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:33:54 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709111529.51415.gordon@gjcp.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709110627y33a4dcdcpe44812be09a22497@mail.gmail.com> <200709111529.51415.gordon@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709120733m7357b894pfe2058f4f306179b@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tuesday 11 September 2007 14:27:57 Liam Proven wrote: > > > If you're seriously proposing shipping cases with /no/ labelling and a > > sheet of DIY labels, you're either deranged or very stupid, and either > > way, it's not worth trying to reason with you. > > And yet I have a Microvax with the buttons labelled in English, and tucked > away in a little envelope inside the case a sheet of near-identical sticky > plastic labels just like the one on the front, but in various other > languages. One of the labels is missing, presumably the English one on the > front panel. The thing is, how big was the profit margin on a MicroVAX compared to a modern ?300 PC? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 09:35:25 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:35:25 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709111533.29053.gordon@gjcp.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <200709111533.29053.gordon@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709120735g2d6bb053q16e145cdb72e86fc@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Monday 10 September 2007 19:14:37 Jules Richardson wrote: > > > If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French > > to get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. > > I have a French car (actually, I have several). The dashboard warning lights > and switches are labelled with little symbols. The symbols are pretty much > the same as on the dashboard and switches of my fiance?'s German car, and my > Mum's Japanese van. > > Oddly enough, among the symbols on the dashboard of my car is one simply > labelled "STOP", which is the same across all versions in the UK and Europe. > It lights up when something really bad happens, along with a more descriptive > warning light indicating loss of oil pressure, or hydraulic pressure or fluid > level, or serious overheating. Why "STOP" and not another little symbol I > don't know. I must confess I've never driven a motor vehicle outside the British Isles, but is "STOP" on roadsigns and so on something fairly international? Do non-English-speaking countries put STOP on their roadsigns? I have a feeling I have seen it abroad before now. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 12 09:28:32 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <20070911214815.G5060@shell.lmi.net> <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net> <3A55E886-5A35-40E7-A1F4-BF5E2D33D045@typewritten.org> <20070911214815.G5060@shell.lmi.net> <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709121436.KAA23051@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [Fred Cisin, quoting r.stricklin] >> Funny you should mention that, Martin Ziskind recently pitched me a >> total salesjob on the merits of APL. It was quite surreal. > It's nice and terse. A word processor could probably be written in > one line of code. But it'd be a *really* long line! [Chuck Guzis, replying to the same r.stricklin quote] > It appears that there are no lukewarm opinions about APL. Either you > *really* like it and evangelize constantly about it (sort of like > Forth) or you ignore it and sometimes refer to it as "that Iverson > thing"... Heh. I seem to be an exception. I like APL in many respects, and I'm glad I know it...and I almost never do anything for which it would be a right choice of language; I don't do much matrix juggling. Same for FORTH, actually, except that the "almost never" is less true. Yet I evangelize for neither. I wonder what's wrong with me. :) [In passing, to Chuck Guzis, whatever generated your References: header is a bit broken - it stuck commas in, and there should be no such punctuation, just the .] /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 09:51:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:51:34 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709120735g2d6bb053q16e145cdb72e86fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <200709111533.29053.gordon@gjcp.net> <575131af0709120735g2d6bb053q16e145cdb72e86fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E7FCF6.2030807@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >>> If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French >>> to get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. >> I have a French car (actually, I have several). The dashboard warning lights >> and switches are labelled with little symbols. The symbols are pretty much >> the same as on the dashboard and switches of my fiance?'s German car, and my >> Mum's Japanese van. >> >> Oddly enough, among the symbols on the dashboard of my car is one simply >> labelled "STOP", which is the same across all versions in the UK and Europe. >> It lights up when something really bad happens, along with a more descriptive >> warning light indicating loss of oil pressure, or hydraulic pressure or fluid >> level, or serious overheating. Why "STOP" and not another little symbol I >> don't know. > > I must confess I've never driven a motor vehicle outside the British > Isles, but is "STOP" on roadsigns and so on something fairly > international? Do non-English-speaking countries put STOP on their > roadsigns? I have a feeling I have seen it abroad before now. If memory serves, even France uses STOP. I have come across neighborhoods in Canada that use only ARRET, but it's not common. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 12 10:15:10 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:15:10 -0500 Subject: Symbols [ was Wang 300 Calc ] In-Reply-To: <46E7FCF6.2030807@gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <200709111533.29053.gordon@gjcp.net> <575131af0709120735g2d6bb053q16e145cdb72e86fc@mail.gmail.com> <46E7FCF6.2030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070912101231.09307a20@mail> May I channel Jay for a moment and remind everyone that complaining about internationalized symbols on DVDs and cars is off-topic? I'd understand a discussion of the evolution of symbols as once used on old computers. I'd love to hear a discussion of connector design, as evidenced by connectors in the good ol' days. But stop signs? Not classic. - John From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 11:32:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:32:31 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <46E7B22F.26522.3DFAB8A2@cclist.sydex.com> I don't recall if it was mentioned, but let's not forget the gamer MIDI networking used on the Atari systems... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 12:14:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:14:14 -0700 Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <200709121436.KAA23051@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20070911214815.G5060@shell.lmi.net> <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709121436.KAA23051@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46E7BBF6.16714.3E20ED1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2007 at 10:28, der Mouse wrote: > [In passing, to Chuck Guzis, whatever generated your References: header > is a bit broken - it stuck commas in, and there should be no such > punctuation, just the .] Sigh--I see the commas and if I knew how to get rid of them, I would. I hope it doesn't inconvenience anyone. (P.S. I use the Pegasus email client). Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 12:40:51 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:40:51 +0100 Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20070911212727.O5060@shell.lmi.net> <3A55E886-5A35-40E7-A1F4-BF5E2D33D045@typewritten.org> <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709121040p508a10f7la09d2e30ec0660b5@mail.gmail.com> On 12/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Sep 2007 at 21:34, r.stricklin wrote: > > > Funny you should mention that, Martin Ziskind recently pitched me a > > total salesjob on the merits of APL. It was quite surreal. > > It appears that there are no lukewarm opinions about APL. Either you > *really* like it and evangelize constantly about it (sort of like > Forth) or you ignore it and sometimes refer to it as "that Iverson > thing"... Friend of mine was - is, probably - a Perl wizard. As soon as he got his doctorate in Physics - Computational Fluid Dynamics - he quit academia and went to work for a major US investment bank. Which runs a lot of its internal systems based on a language called A+, their own flavour of APL. He tells me he now finds Perl irritatingly verbose. I find this very frightening. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 12:41:36 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:41:36 +0100 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <02F99CBA-364E-4471-A516-824498723803@neurotica.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <575131af0709110637l355bc12j7b7f30999b4d7b8c@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070911091622.0ad85e90@mail> <2f9801c7f4f6$edb62d60$6a01a8c0@liberator> <02F99CBA-364E-4471-A516-824498723803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709121041l26d1d0c3k89c507f179fb8c7@mail.gmail.com> On 12/09/2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 12, 2007, at 12:39 AM, Geoff Reed wrote: > > Some of the more recent Xerox color copiers/printers (ok, 10 ish > > years ago) > > were SCSI based, and came with a "rendering engine" that was a > > headless > > Sparc server. > > The one in question (Sridhar's Kodak XLT7720, I'm assuming that's > the one he's talking about) wasn't necessarily used in that manner. > I myself used it connected directly to a Mac running MacOS 9. It had > drivers that presented it as a Photoshop export device. It could be > a bit finicky, but the output quality was astonishing. I sit illuminated and educated. Thanks! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From charlesmorris at hughes.net Wed Sep 12 12:45:37 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:45:37 -0500 Subject: DEC 874D power controller In-Reply-To: <200709121701.l8CH18ar056145@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709121701.l8CH18ar056145@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <719ge3liq3fsru16fm08llpfkt0hhohqb7@4ax.com> Does anyone have the schematic for an 874-D power controller? Or better yet, a good used circuit breaker? At least one of the three (ganged) breakers is internally flaky and will turn off if the handle is pushed upward all the way to "ON" (they work if the handle row is carefully lifted just far enough but obviously that is not reliable). It looks like the (original-type) Heinemann breakers are available from Newark, and similar ones from Mouser that will probably fit, but they are *very* expensive new... thanks Charles From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 12:48:53 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:48:53 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709121048o176bb4ddif8aef6c3a7a19b50@mail.gmail.com> On 12/09/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/11/07, Allison wrote: > > There were a few simple schemes but excluding myself how many hobbiests > > back then had two or more systems? > AppleTalk was a great step forward for home networking. It's a shame > that other vendors didn't follow in Apple's footsteps for many years. I am sitting here quietly boggling at the ingenuity displayed in these posts. I had multiple systems in the mid/late 1980s. By and large, I retyped everything, tho' by the end, DOS-format 720K 3.5" disks were a /lingua franca/ that almost everything spoke. But there were other cheapo serial networks back then: Sinclair bundled networking in the ZX Interface 1 for the Spectrum, which was, I think, compatible with the networking of the later Sinclair QL. Also there was Acorn's Econet, of course. I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system outside of a show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile. The problem is, they were all more or less proprietary. It's a shame some kind of standardised serial-port system wasn't adopted; even really low-end kit like a Speccy with I/F 1 had a serial port. Just before Ethernet took over, I built a couple of LANs based on SAGE's MainLAN, a serial-type system, and I used a lot of Mac-to-Mac LocalTalk LANs - although actually in the '80s, Farallon PhoneNet took over quickly. Same computer-side electronics & connectors, so 100% compatible, but used telephone cables (so was cheaper) and carried a lot further. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 12:52:10 2007 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:52:10 +0200 Subject: Spanish speaker for spanish radio interview? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I am form Spain, where I live, so I can't talk in a radio station in Florida, but if you want some translation or similar, you can talk to me. Paco On 9/11/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Does anyone speak fluent Spanish? If so, there's a spanish-language radio > station in Florida that wants to do a 7 minute interview about vintage > computers today at 2:15PM (Eastern). > > Contact me ASAP if you'd like to do this and you speak Spanish. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Sep 12 12:55:12 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:55:12 +0100 Subject: Jaguar Blaster (was Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?) References: Message-ID: <000c01c7f566$1295b960$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > The only mention I've ever seen anywhere of a Jaguar Blaster >card is here: Yeah, I've seen that page and I *DO* know it's a spoof. :-) However my comment was based on my recollections of an article and photographs published in a magazine "back in the day". The photos showed people playing Jaguar games, on several PCs equipped with a "Jaguar-on-a-card", in a booth at some US electronics show or other.... These were pre-production units BTW, the product launch was still several months away (and probably never happened by the look of it). I don't recall now whether it was definitely made by Creative, but I thought it highly likely in view of their "3DO Blaster". > Actually, there was a Jaguar-on-a-PCI-card project called JagPC >that was at least announced by Sigma Designs. I don't think a prototype >ever existed, but I could be wrong.... Possible that's what I read about, but whichever card it was at least pre-production cards did exist. It's almost certain that I still have the magazine somewhere, if I can find it (which could take months - seriously) I'll post some more info on what the article said. Might have been in "Edge"...? TTFN - Pete. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 13:18:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:18:22 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200709121418.22938.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 11 September 2007 07:50, Allison wrote: > >On Sunday 09 September 2007 16:04, Allison wrote: > >> >A while back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a > >> > box" systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I > >> > think that's the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it. > >> > >> Multibus, very nice bus and expensive cards. I have a few multibus > >> cards. Intel used it in their MDS800 and a few otehrs as well. > > > >I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike > > me as being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-) > > It cost more because it was industrial strength, larger boards, regulated > power and so on. Yup... > >I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade show, > > and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace, > > though I don't forsee me ever using them. > > ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price range of a hard disk then. > Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982 the two > largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and Dupont(internal) and > they were around 50 nodes! I remember those days, thinking of 50 nodes as being pretty good-sized. :-) > There were a few simple schemes but excluding myself how many hobbiests > back then had two or more systems? Good point. It took me quite a while to progress beyond my first machine, and even then it was CP/M boxes that people didn't want any more, rather than newer/bigger stuff. And I still have most of 'em. :-) > >> >I've also seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was > >> > supposed to work through serial ports, which pretty many machines > >> > had, althogh they appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to > >> > wire-OR RS232 signals, which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. > >> > And what software support there was for this wasn't real apparent. > >> > >> That was a poor mans networking. Basically the serial ports were used > >> as CD/CSMA bus and there was some protocal like Ethernet but slower and > >> could use the usually common async chips. I have such a net going for > >> my CP/M crates and all. > > > >What does that take on the software side of things? > > Not a whole lot, CPnet could be used but it was easy enough to use plain > vanilla CP/M2.2 and add your own BIOS drivers for "networked functions". > defineatly home grown. Modifying the BIOS of a machine was something I'd never quite gotten as much of a handle on as I'd like to. I still have a Bigboard II that I didn't get the software with, for example. While it'll boot a Xerox 820 floppy, that only gives me SSSD, the DS or DD stuff won't work because the two versions of things map the I/O differently (the BBII from 80H rather than 00H). I need to get back to hacking on that one of these days. > >> >TurboDOS is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's > >> > too much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software, > >> > stuff I'd leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same > >> > old Console / Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to > >> > something different or unique. I found the same thing to be the case > >> > when I looked at FORTH, too much of the usual stuff, and that was > >> > supposed to have been used in some control applications? I must've > >> > missed something there... > >> > >> ???? Whats the question or point? > > > >Just that I'd like to see some stuff that isn't oriented that way. You > > have a SBC, you obviously need some way to talk to it, but the standard > > "console" stuff gets a little old, I probably don't want to hook a > > printer up to it, and may not even want a disk drive of any sort, > > depending on what I wanna do with it. I'm up for exploring some > > alternative approaches to doing things. Unfortunately the embedded stuff > > that's out there doesn't satisfy too often, the design being too specific > > to the app, source code not available, etc. I'm thinking that it should > > be possible to have some sort of a more generalized framework to hang > > things on, and then you could optimize it for specific uses, or expand > > it in different directions. Even from the earliest days "personal" > > computers all seemed to take pretty much the same approach to things... > > Well by hook or by grook the average PC still has a serial port, some have > two or atleast a USB port for a USB to serial. Actually amongst my stuff USB is a really recent phenomenon, and I've only in the past month or two acquired anything that uses it -- an external DVD reader / CD burner -- and nothing else. Most of my peecee hardware is older stuff, and serial ports are not a problem, by comparison with those whose hardware is more current. So yeah, having a serial port is probably one of the things I'd consider to be a necessary feature in there. And it'll end up being able to talk to just about anything I'd be running. > It's not that hard to write software to use that serial as a access from the > SBC for things like a remote printer or disk and people have and are doing > it. It's not "networking" in the full blown sense but none of the IO of a > SBC is required to direct connection to a printer or terminal (ignoring rom > based stuff). > > >I realized in other messaging a while back that it's been well over a year > >since I fired up a soldering iron, and this is a bad thing. :-) And > > even then, it was a matter of scrapping stuff, not building anything > > new and interesting. I need to get out of that particular rut and get > > back to it, or there's no point to all those parts I've been scrounging > > for decades. Maybe one of these days I will... > > When you do tell us about it. Seems these days I get to maybe one > of the major computer construction based projects maybe two per year. > But I split my time between RF projects and digital projects. RF is a whole 'nother thing entirely, and I've not even begun to do much with that... Yet. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 13:31:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:31:18 -0500 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> References: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On 9/12/07, M H Stein wrote: > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > >Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive, rather than just move > >files back and forth on tape, basing it upon the cable and software > >from a contemporary "Byte" magazine, I fabricated my own > >nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and the > >C-64, and moved stuff from one to the other over that. > > You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? > I still have the 30 footer that connected my upstairs "play" PET to the > downstairs "work" one. Lots of people (especially schools) "networked" > them that way in those distant days. Until you mentioned it now, I never would have thought of it. Back in the day, I never saw any articles in the journals about that, and nobody at any of the user-group meetings ever mentioned it or showed it off, but thinking about it now... I can see how it could work. Just a passive cable? Do you have any special notes, or was it just SAVE "FOO", 1 and LOAD "FOO", 1? -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 13:33:00 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:33:00 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E7B22F.26522.3DFAB8A2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <46E7B22F.26522.3DFAB8A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709121433.01015.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 12:32, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't recall if it was mentioned, but let's not forget the gamer > MIDI networking used on the Atari systems... Interesting point. I'm familiar with MIDI, having worked nontrivially with a bunch of electronic music gear, and you can't get much simpler than that, in terms of the hardware... You don't even need "rs232 levels". -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 12 13:59:05 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:59:05 -0700 Subject: One seriously modded C64! Message-ID: This is one impressive series of mod's to turn the C64 into part of a music studio. http://www.bigmech.com/misc/c64mods/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 14:03:26 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:03:26 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200709121503.29524.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 14:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/12/07, M H Stein wrote: > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > > >Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive, rather than just move > > >files back and forth on tape, basing it upon the cable and software > > >from a contemporary "Byte" magazine, I fabricated my own > > >nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and the > > >C-64, and moved stuff from one to the other over that. > > > > You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? > > I still have the 30 footer that connected my upstairs "play" PET to the > > downstairs "work" one. Lots of people (especially schools) "networked" > > them that way in those distant days. > > Until you mentioned it now, I never would have thought of it. I never heard of that either, until I read it in that post... > Back in the day, I never saw any articles in the journals about that, and > nobody at any of the user-group meetings ever mentioned it or showed > it off, but thinking about it now... I can see how it could work. Indeed. There were a LOT of c= folks around these parts back when, a lot of BBSs run on those machines, and a lot of activity focused there in the user groups, and I also ended up with a pile of the magazines that had all sorts of little tips and tricks and never saw it in any of those either. > Just a passive cable? Do you have any special notes, or was it just > SAVE "FOO", 1 and LOAD "FOO", 1? I was wondering if you'd want the ",1" in there or not myself. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Sep 12 14:03:27 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:03:27 -0300 Subject: Jaguar Blaster (was Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?) References: <003001c7f4a5$2fd0e930$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46E7823D.30408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <04e301c7f570$10d84660$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Maybe 3DO blaster??? Never heard of a proper jaguar blaster... > Confirmed. It was 3DO on a card, not the Jaguar. BTW anyone with a spare unit? I'd love to have one of these :o) Greetings Alexandre :o) From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 14:08:39 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:08:39 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709121418.22938.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200709121418.22938.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E83937.8030908@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade show, >>> and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace, >>> though I don't forsee me ever using them. >> ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price range of a hard disk then. >> Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982 the two >> largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and Dupont(internal) and >> they were around 50 nodes! > > I remember those days, thinking of 50 nodes as being pretty good-sized. :-) IBM's internal network was significantly larger than that by '82. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 14:17:14 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:17:14 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <575131af0709121048o176bb4ddif8aef6c3a7a19b50@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <575131af0709121048o176bb4ddif8aef6c3a7a19b50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709121517.17217.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 13:48, Liam Proven wrote: > The problem is, they were all more or less proprietary. It's a shame > some kind of standardised serial-port system wasn't adopted; even > really low-end kit like a Speccy with I/F 1 had a serial port. That was the problem with an awful lot of stuff back then... > Just before Ethernet took over, I built a couple of LANs based on > SAGE's MainLAN, a serial-type system, and I used a lot of Mac-to-Mac > LocalTalk LANs - although actually in the '80s, Farallon PhoneNet took > over quickly. Same computer-side electronics & connectors, so 100% > compatible, but used telephone cables (so was cheaper) and carried a > lot further. Phone connectors? That's a *wonderful* idea! Way cheaper than the DIN stuff used for MIDI typically, easier to make the cables for, and with two pairs of wire you can have both directions at once in one cable and set of connectors. I like it! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 12 14:21:26 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LocalTalk/PhoneNet was 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <575131af0709121048o176bb4ddif8aef6c3a7a19b50@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Sep 12, 7 06:48:53 pm" Message-ID: <200709121921.l8CJLQTV013276@floodgap.com> > LocalTalk LANs - although actually in the '80s, Farallon PhoneNet took > over quickly. Same computer-side electronics & connectors, so 100% > compatible, but used telephone cables (so was cheaper) and carried a > lot further. I still have a PhoneNet LocalTalk segment. It's very handy for old Macs and my IIgs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Another day, another dangling modifier" ----------------------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 14:38:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:38:02 -0500 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709121503.29524.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> <200709121503.29524.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 14:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 9/12/07, M H Stein wrote: > > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > > > > >Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive... I fabricated my own > > > >nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and the > > > >C-64... > > > > > > You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? > > > Just a passive cable? Do you have any special notes, or was it just > > SAVE "FOO", 1 and LOAD "FOO", 1? > > I was wondering if you'd want the ",1" in there or not myself. In this case, the '1' is to designate cassette drive 1 (PETs have two, C-64s have one). It's probably optional, but I included it out of habit. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 14:41:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:41:55 -0700 Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <575131af0709121040p508a10f7la09d2e30ec0660b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <46E70F73.2745.3B7F0DC4@cclist.sydex.com>, <575131af0709121040p508a10f7la09d2e30ec0660b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E7DE93.17966.3EA81E67@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2007 at 18:40, Liam Proven wrote: > I find this very frightening. When I worked with the STAR-100 vector machine, a few people were aware that there was an APL for the machine (a natural fit, given the instruction set), but I was hard put to even come up with a manual for it. I think what militated against APL aside from the strange character set was the proliferation of very terse programs; the one-liner seems to be a mark of pride for the APL clan. If I wrote C the way those folks write APL, no one could understand my code. In truth, APL is very elegant. One of my profs in school insisted on illustrating his algorithms with bits of APL, so I was forced to laarn it. Unfortunately, on a machine with 6-bit characters, programming in real life looks a lot less elegant than it does on paper. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 14:43:54 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:43:54 -0400 Subject: One seriously modded C64! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709121543.55934.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 14:59, Zane H. Healy wrote: > This is one impressive series of mod's to turn the C64 into part of a > music studio. > > http://www.bigmech.com/misc/c64mods/ > > Zane I'll say! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 14:47:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:47:33 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <46E7DFE5.27392.3EAD49FC@cclist.sydex.com> In the topic of early networking, but alas, not 8-bit, I should mention that I've got some Diamond Multimedia HomeFree and HomeFree PhoneLine (one uses an antenna; the other sends an RF signal down a copper pair) networking cards. Probably one of the earlier wireless cards for PC. Uses an iRDA chip as the controller. Anyone wants them, let me know. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 14:45:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:45:57 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E83937.8030908@gmail.com> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200709121418.22938.rtellason@verizon.net> <46E83937.8030908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709121545.58152.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 15:08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >>> I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade > >>> show, and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here > >>> someplace, though I don't forsee me ever using them. > >> > >> ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price range of a hard disk > >> then. Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982 > >> the two largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and > >> Dupont(internal) and they were around 50 nodes! > > > > I remember those days, thinking of 50 nodes as being pretty good-sized. > > :-) > > IBM's internal network was significantly larger than that by '82. 8-) Of that I have no doubt! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 14:48:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:48:21 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> <200709121503.29524.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709121548.21949.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 15:38, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 14:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On 9/12/07, M H Stein wrote: > > > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > > > > > > >Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive... I fabricated my > > > > > own nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET > > > > > and the C-64... > > > > > > > > You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? > > > > > > Just a passive cable? Do you have any special notes, or was it just > > > SAVE "FOO", 1 and LOAD "FOO", 1? > > > > I was wondering if you'd want the ",1" in there or not myself. > > In this case, the '1' is to designate cassette drive 1 (PETs have two, > C-64s have one). It's probably optional, but I included it out of > habit. Actually I never did all that much with cassette on any c= stuff (though I do have one), and never thought about there being two of them attached to one machine... Too often I typed that ,1 in when executing a disk command, and there were times when that wasn't wanted or necessary, and didn't work like I expected. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 14:51:35 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:51:35 -0400 Subject: Labelling sockets (was Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <46E7DE93.17966.3EA81E67@cclist.sydex.com> References: <16319.59641.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <575131af0709121040p508a10f7la09d2e30ec0660b5@mail.gmail.com> <46E7DE93.17966.3EA81E67@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709121551.35545.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 15:41, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think what militated against APL aside from the strange character > set was the proliferation of very terse programs; the one-liner seems > to be a mark of pride for the APL clan. The strange character set was definitely off-putting, for sure. I remember running across some implementation of it a while back, whether it was early peecee or prior to that I don't recall. But it wasn't something I was gonna mess with unless I could get a keyboard with those characters on it. :-) Kind of the same way I feel about that Dvorak keyboard layout -- I'd love to work with that a while, but not without the right keycaps while I learned it. Keyboard layout-changing software just wasn't gonna cut it... > If I wrote C the way those folks write APL, no one could understand my code. Which brings to mind the "obfuscated C contest". I wonder if that's still ongoing? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 15:04:43 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:04:43 -0500 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709121548.21949.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> <200709121503.29524.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709121548.21949.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 15:38, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > Just a passive cable? Do you have any special notes, or was it just > > > > SAVE "FOO", 1 and LOAD "FOO", 1? > > > > > > I was wondering if you'd want the ",1" in there or not myself. > > > > In this case, the '1' is to designate cassette drive 1 (PETs have two, > > C-64s have one). It's probably optional, but I included it out of > > habit. > > Actually I never did all that much with cassette on any c= stuff (though I do > have one), and never thought about there being two of them attached to one > machine... The C-64 does not have a device at address 2, IIRC. Original PETs used 1 as the internal (keyboard mounted) cassette, and 2 as the external cassette. Later PETs swapped that, with 1 accessible from the rear port, and 2 only accessible if you opened the case. Few folks had two datasette drives on a PET, if for no other reason, because the drives were originally $70-$100 each. It _would_ have been handy for me to have two tape drives, but only because I did everything on that PET with tape (which has since been converted to tape files and disk images and I can still fire up with VICE). > Too often I typed that ,1 in when executing a disk command, and there were > times when that wasn't wanted or necessary, and didn't work like I expected. *Nods* Yep... that was a huge shift for me when moving from the PET to the C-64 - getting used to appending ",8" to everything. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 12 15:33:59 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Sep 12, 7 03:04:43 pm" Message-ID: <200709122033.l8CKXxvs013250@floodgap.com> > The C-64 does not have a device at address 2, IIRC. Au contraire -- the user port ("simulated" ACIA) is usually device 2. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A penny saved is stupid. --------------------------------------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 15:56:15 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:56:15 -0500 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709122033.l8CKXxvs013250@floodgap.com> References: <200709122033.l8CKXxvs013250@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 9/12/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > The C-64 does not have a device at address 2, IIRC. > > Au contraire -- the user port ("simulated" ACIA) is usually device 2. Doh! and/or Duh! You are entirely right. I haven't written any BASIC to use it since about 1985 (mostly just using existing comms programs), so I forgot that was the serial "device" address. Thanks for correcting my mistake. -ethan From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Wed Sep 12 16:28:45 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:28:45 -0600 Subject: DEC 874D power controller Message-ID: <46E85A0D.2060601@rogerwilco.org> Charles said: > Does anyone have the schematic for an 874-D power controller? > Or better yet, a good used circuit breaker? Well I don't have a breaker, but at least you can check the print set for the details. I also recently needed to examine the schematic, and found it at: http://www.vt100.net/manx/details/1,3467 > At least one of the three (ganged) breakers is internally flaky > and will turn off if the handle is pushed upward all the way to > "ON" (they work if the handle row is carefully lifted just far > enough but obviously that is not reliable). You're right, not very reliable. > It looks like the (original-type) Heinemann breakers are available > from Newark, and similar ones from Mouser that will probably fit, > but they are *very* expensive new... Well, I haven't checked the prices, but you may find reasonable success by getting another 874D unit. I just saw one trade hands on eBay for around $20. - Jared From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Wed Sep 12 16:28:45 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:28:45 -0600 Subject: DEC 874D power controller Message-ID: <46E85A0D.2060601@rogerwilco.org> Charles said: > Does anyone have the schematic for an 874-D power controller? > Or better yet, a good used circuit breaker? Well I don't have a breaker, but at least you can check the print set for the details. I also recently needed to examine the schematic, and found it at: http://www.vt100.net/manx/details/1,3467 > At least one of the three (ganged) breakers is internally flaky > and will turn off if the handle is pushed upward all the way to > "ON" (they work if the handle row is carefully lifted just far > enough but obviously that is not reliable). You're right, not very reliable. > It looks like the (original-type) Heinemann breakers are available > from Newark, and similar ones from Mouser that will probably fit, > but they are *very* expensive new... Well, I haven't checked the prices, but you may find reasonable success by getting another 874D unit. I just saw one trade hands on eBay for around $20. - Jared From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 12 16:55:41 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:55:41 -0700 Subject: When it rains, it pours In-Reply-To: <200709122111.OAA05767@mist.magic.com> References: <200709122111.OAA05767@mist.magic.com> Message-ID: <46E8605D.6080705@bitsavers.org> William's load came in on Monday, now these just arrived. http://bitsavers.org/microdata/reality Five Microdata Reality systems. From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Wed Sep 12 16:28:45 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:28:45 -0600 Subject: DEC 874D power controller Message-ID: <46E85A0D.2060601@rogerwilco.org> Charles said: > Does anyone have the schematic for an 874-D power controller? > Or better yet, a good used circuit breaker? Well I don't have a breaker, but at least you can check the print set for the details. I also recently needed to examine the schematic, and found it at: http://www.vt100.net/manx/details/1,3467 > At least one of the three (ganged) breakers is internally flaky > and will turn off if the handle is pushed upward all the way to > "ON" (they work if the handle row is carefully lifted just far > enough but obviously that is not reliable). You're right, not very reliable. > It looks like the (original-type) Heinemann breakers are available > from Newark, and similar ones from Mouser that will probably fit, > but they are *very* expensive new... Well, I haven't checked the prices, but you may find reasonable success by getting another 874D unit. I just saw one trade hands on eBay for around $20. - Jared From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 12 18:04:51 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:04:51 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709121418.22938.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200709121418.22938.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E87093.3020300@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/09/2007 19:18, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 11 September 2007 07:50, Allison wrote: >>> I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade show, >>> and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace, >>> though I don't forsee me ever using them. >> ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price range of a hard disk then. >> Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in 1982 the two >> largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and Dupont(internal) and >> they were around 50 nodes! ARCnet is still alive in some building management systems. The people who do some of them for our University use it, to my disgust. They run long copper cables between buildings and then wonder why it stops working during thunderstorms. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 12 18:10:49 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:10:49 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709121503.29524.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> <200709121503.29524.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E871F9.8050600@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/09/2007 20:03, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 14:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 9/12/07, M H Stein wrote: >>> You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? >> Until you mentioned it now, I never would have thought of it. > I never heard of that either, until I read it in that post... ISTR there was some Commodore diagnostic software that you could transfer that way, and we certainly used the same technique to transfer diagnostics from a BBC Micro with a disk drive to cassette-based machines we were testing or repairing. That would be around 1982-85. We put resistors in the cables to get the levels right. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Sep 12 18:45:51 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:45:51 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net><46E7B22F.26522.3DFAB8A2@cclist.sydex.com> <200709121433.01015.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <005601c7f597$0dc35380$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > You don't even need "rs232 levels". MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it? TTFN - Pete. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 18:56:02 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:56:02 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <005601c7f597$0dc35380$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200709121433.01015.rtellason@verizon.net> <005601c7f597$0dc35380$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200709121956.02616.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 19:45, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > You don't even need "rs232 levels". > > MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it? Yup! But my point is that in prototyping some small SBC the rs232 stuff is about the only thing on there typically that needs other than logic power (+5V) unless there's some analog stuff there on the board that needs it. MIDI, in every implementation I've ever seen, uses only a 5V supply. I never did understand why current loops weren't used more... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From charlesmorris at hughes.net Wed Sep 12 19:00:58 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:00:58 -0500 Subject: FS: Toshiba T1100+ laptop Message-ID: I'd like to sell a Toshiba T-1100 Plus laptop I've had for a long time but don't need. According to this interesting article http://www.itworld.com/Comp/1355/050420toshibalaptop/ it's considerably over 10 years old, and probably over 20, so hopefully this is the right forum to post this ;) Anyway it has an 8088 processor, 640K RAM ("...should be enough for anyone" according to Bill Gates), two 3.5" floppy drives, an 80x25 monochrome LCD display, built-in modem (probably 1200 baud but maybe faster), AC adapter and the carrying bag. It comes with a Toshiba MS-DOS 3.20 disk and boots up to the A> prompt and will list the directory of that disk. That's as far as I tested it. The internal D-cell NiCd batteries I replaced several years ago with brand-new ones from Mouser and then let it sit, gathering dust... they did take a charge and will run the machine on batteries. I'd like to find it a good home. I figure the fairest way, assuming more than one person is interested ;) is to make "silent auction" bids. Please let me know. thanks Charles From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 19:12:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:12:58 -0500 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709121956.02616.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200709121433.01015.rtellason@verizon.net> <005601c7f597$0dc35380$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200709121956.02616.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 19:45, Ensor wrote: > > Hi, > > > > > You don't even need "rs232 levels". > > > > MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it? > > Yup! > > But my point is that in prototyping some small SBC the rs232 stuff is about > the only thing on there typically that needs other than logic power (+5V) > unless there's some analog stuff there on the board that needs it. And with MAX232 or DS275-type internal-charge-pump line drivers, you can get away with +5V only, unless, as you say, you need differential voltages for analog, or perhaps +12V for motors or something. For -5V at a few dozen mA, there's the venerable ICL7660 (an 8-pin DIP/SOIC and two external caps). For more sophisticated stuff, one can get isolated +/-5V or +/-12V or +/-15V potted modules, but those aren't typically required for microprocessor-type designs. We did have to stick a +5V->-12V charge-pump module on our Qbus COMBOARD, 20 years ago, because, IIRC, BA11 chasses provide +/-12V, but the BA23 does not (or was it some other MicroVAX chassis?) I still have a pad of them, but no real need for them since I prototype with MAX232s, not 1488/1489s. -ethan From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Sep 12 19:30:39 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:30:39 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <006201c7f400$0f87e4d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46E5D1B7.4080805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <008d01c7f59d$509681e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > [System 68] >> IIRC circuit diagrams and PCB layouts were provided, along >>with a full listing of the system monitor program. > > That latter's the important bit; there are just too many >computing-related projects in magazines of old for which the >software / firmware had to be sent away for.... I first came across this myself in the mid-90s. I'd picked up a copy of "Elektor" for the first time in almost 10 years and was surprised that they didn't provide any listings of any form for the projects based around PICs, you had to send away for pre-programmed parts. I'm sure this sort of thing began much earlier though. >> Not sure whether ETI published the PCB layout for the "Triton" (I'm >>pretty sure they didn't, it was a fairly large, through hole plated >>PCB), but they sure publisged the schematics and monitor listings. > > I'll have a look if I remember; I think we've got a pretty comprehensive >set of ETIs from around that period. On reflection, I think they actually published a hex-dump of the system monitor along with the schematics etc rather than a listing (though it's possible it got published in Computing Today at a later date). I'm pretty sure I still have a big collection of ETIs and CTs from that era somewhere.... TTFN - Pete. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 20:00:44 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:00:44 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200709121956.02616.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709122100.45432.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 20:12, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 19:45, Ensor wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > > You don't even need "rs232 levels". > > > > > > MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it? > > > > Yup! > > > > But my point is that in prototyping some small SBC the rs232 stuff is > > about the only thing on there typically that needs other than logic power > > (+5V) unless there's some analog stuff there on the board that needs it. > > And with MAX232 or DS275-type internal-charge-pump line drivers, you > can get away with +5V only, unless, as you say, you need differential > voltages for analog, or perhaps +12V for motors or something. For -5V > at a few dozen mA, there's the venerable ICL7660 (an 8-pin DIP/SOIC > and two external caps). > > For more sophisticated stuff, one can get isolated +/-5V or +/-12V or > +/-15V potted modules, but those aren't typically required for > microprocessor-type designs. We did have to stick a +5V->-12V > charge-pump module on our Qbus COMBOARD, 20 years ago, because, IIRC, > BA11 chasses provide +/-12V, but the BA23 does not (or was it some > other MicroVAX chassis?) I still have a pad of them, but no real need > for them since I prototype with MAX232s, not 1488/1489s. That's fine if you were buying parts to build something, but having several decades of accumulation on hand I'm more inclined to use what I have on hand here, which unfortunately means 1488s and 1489s... So if there's some easy way to do it otherwise, I'll probably go there. The only issue is what to do on the peecee end of things... Unless and until I get my hands on some of those other chips, maybe. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Sep 12 20:42:56 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:42:56 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709121700.l8CH0N2P056105@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709121700.l8CH0N2P056105@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: The good news is that the symbols (at least for modernish interfaces) seem to be being standardized. Be nice if they back-standardized though for things like serial and parallel. Another issue with words is "which $LANGUAGE" - I remember distinctly opening up the Volvo service manual and being totally confused by "bonnet" when I was about 12. I imagine that someone in England would be even more confused by "hood" (since I think it means the drop-top on a convertible over there). Symbols are fair in that they are equally inconvienient for all. BTW "la computadora" is the standard in Latin America (where the stop signs are a red octagon with "ALTO" in them). What I would like to see is connectors designed to be easy to mate. I dislike struggling with a connector because I'm some small fraction of an inch off and eventually having to take everything off the machine and turn it around so I can see what I'm doing. The modular jacks are good for blind connections, but USB is terrible (and most D-subs are hard, too. At least 13W3 gives you a tactile method to determine whether you're right-side up). From rickb at bensene.com Wed Sep 12 21:08:08 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:08:08 -0700 Subject: When it rains, it pours In-Reply-To: <46E8605D.6080705@bitsavers.org> References: <200709122111.OAA05767@mist.magic.com> <46E8605D.6080705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ...and what appears to be a good haul of Friden paper-tape data processing equipment, including a later-model Flexowriter, a Selectadata (a "smart" paper tape processing unit), and various paper-tape reader/punch components. Of course, the Microdata stuff is stellar So glad that it was rescued. It all looks to be in pretty good shape --hopefully something can be made to blink lights someday! I have an affection for Friden equipment, be it calculators or data processing/computing equipment from this particular era. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Sep 12 22:18:28 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:18:28 -0300 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71> --------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:31:18 -0500 From: "Ethan Dicks" Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever On 9/12/07, M H Stein wrote: > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > >Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive, rather than just move > >files back and forth on tape, basing it upon the cable and software > >from a contemporary "Byte" magazine, I fabricated my own > >nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and the > >C-64, and moved stuff from one to the other over that. > > You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? > I still have the 30 footer that connected my upstairs "play" PET to the > downstairs "work" one. Lots of people (especially schools) "networked" > them that way in those distant days. Until you mentioned it now, I never would have thought of it. Back in the day, I never saw any articles in the journals about that, and nobody at any of the user-group meetings ever mentioned it or showed it off, but thinking about it now... I can see how it could work. Just a passive cable? Do you have any special notes, or was it just SAVE "FOO", 1 and LOAD "FOO", 1? -ethan =================================================== -----------Reply: Simple as that. Out to In, In to Out, and ground; preferably shielded, compatible with pretty well all models. Type LOAD "FOO" on receiving unit, run up/downstairs and type SAVE "FOO" on the other, using the alternate port on the unit that had a "real" cassette drive (2001 & VIC20 in my case, with an 8032/8050 and a massive Centronics 101 printing boat anchor at the other end), then back down/upstairs to play/work. Remember that an 8050 2FDD was around $2000+ back then IIRC, so one was enough for me. In the classrooms they'd have a "hub" (but I don't recall now whether they were passive or needed amplification). The teacher would tell everyone to type LOAD "FOO" and when they were ready everyone pressed return and the teacher would enter the SAVE. If anyone wanted to save their master- pieces, then one at a time they could send them back to the "server" and copy to disk. Since Jack T had his beginnings here in Toronto, Commodore had a pretty strong presence and when the province decided to put computers into the classrooms most of them were PETs; 2001s, then 4032s and finally C64s, although by that time Apples (and clones) were also becoming pretty commonplace. That's also one of the reasons TPUG (the Toronto PET Users Group) was so successful and in fact is still active today, not to mention Jim Butterfield's (another Torontonian) considerable support and contributions. mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 13 00:42:33 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:42:33 -0700 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers Message-ID: After putting it off for many, many years, I've decided to break down and do it. I'm in the market for a device to read and program EPROM's such as would be found in DEC or Commodore 64 hardware. Something that can also handle other chips (Such as PAL's) that I'd find in DEC or Commodore hardware would be nice. I'm looking for something that is either dirt cheap, or that I can build. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Sep 12 01:18:01 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:18:01 -0700 Subject: Zen and the art of RL02 maintainance Message-ID: <46E78499.3060406@msu.edu> Just picked up an RL02 for a song. It's a bit beat up looking, but it seems pretty clean inside, so far. It's kind of a moot point at the moment, since I have no disk packs, cabling, or interface boards (so I can't use the darned thing until I complete a scavenger hunt...) but I'm wondering what I should check out on this machine before I power it on & (eventually) start using it... Any suggestions? Thanks! Josh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 12 06:43:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:43:32 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JO900LT1779CKN1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:02:57 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/11/07, Allison wrote: >> There were a few simple schemes but excluding myself how many hobbiests >> back then had two or more systems? > >In 1982, the year you quoted for those Arcnet networks, at age 16, I >had 4 systems, a PET, a C-64, a Cosmac Elf, and a PDP-8/L (that I was >trying to repair - took until 1984, when I finally tracked down a >printset), but I'll grant you that at the time, the number of folks >that had multiple systems were probably dwarfed by the number of folks >who had only one. Of those, due to minimal I/O and/or functionality, >only the PET and the C-64 were "real" systems. I knew I couldn't be the only one but I figured not many. I was rare in I had at least 4 systems that would run CP/M making the need for interchange more deireable. By that same year I also had COSMAC ELF, SC/MP 8a-500, National Nibble basic, IMSAI IMP-48, Motorola 6800D1, NEC TK80, and a LSI-11 with TU58. I was in contact with enough people that the incidence of multiple machines was low. the more common case was a apple, TRS-80 or S100 crate with storage and one or more SBC that might have enough memory for TinyBasic. The exceptions were usually business or schools. >Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive, rather than just move >files back and forth on tape, basing it upon the cable and software >from a contemporary "Byte" magazine, I fabricated my own >nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and the >C-64, and moved stuff from one to the other over that. I might have >used serial, if I'd had an ACIA-based port for my PET (there were a >couple that sat in an expansion ROM socket), or if I'd understood more >about the nature of serial comms and crufted up my own bit-banging >routines for the PET (the C-64 had that in ROM already). I understood >parallel communications, so a nybble at a time it was. Mine started when I needed to get stuff from the various CP/M systems that even when they had disks were incompatable hard sector to soft or 8 and 5.25. I started with serial peer to peer as in pipmodem and similar. Later I did a two system resource sharing that grew to allow up to a potential 256 systems. In '82 the whole thing peaked with a multiprocessor S100 crate with intercommunications via pooled memory. > >Later, around 1983, when I picked up a VIC-20 on clearance for around >$70, I would certainly would have liked to have had a Commodore >network (based around the user port, most likely), but was unaware of >anything I could build for myself, and certainly couldn't afford any >of the "disk sharing" hardware I'd seen advertised to share PET disks >amongst multiple machines. Likely If i'd had more contact with the non-CP/M s100 world and the DEC PDP-11 world I'd have evolved things differntly. It didn't hurt that I'd had prior experience with the BOCES LYRICs PDP-8 and PDP-10 timeshare systems. The S100 world allowed me to venture into a more hardware intensive world. >It took me a few more years to learn enough about serial comms and >computer networking to be able to roll my own hardware and/or >software, but working for a serial comms networking company had a lot >to do with that. I would have loved to have been able to buy or build >something inexpensive, no matter how slow, but even a multi-serial >solution would have strained my high-school budget, as I presume it >would have strained most hobbyists' budgets, or perhaps home >networking would have gotten rolling before the days of Arcnet. >I think the first network I had any hands-on experience with was >AppleTalk/LocalTalk, when I helped my mother with a Corvus disk drive >and a room full of 512K Macs, just before she started her own business >(fortunately, by the time she did, she could afford a 20MB drive per >CPU, so the network was for printing only). By time the Mac hit I'd seeen DECnet and mixed PDP-11 and VAX system in large networks with remote printing and all the trimmings we see on the internet. >AppleTalk was a great step forward for home networking. It's a shame >that other vendors didn't follow in Apple's footsteps for many years. >I think I had an Amiga for four or five years before I attempted to >even do any serial networking (using DNet). It was well after 1990 >before I was able to stick an Amiga on an Ethernet network, and that >was with a $300 card! (there was a Zorro Arcnet card - the A2060, but >I knew I wasn't going to bother with Arcnet by that time). Appletalk was a really good, it's biggest feature is low cost both in hardware and memory footprint there were peripherals that would talk on the same net. All of the things I did and got to see and use colored my perception of what computers could do. Usually it was far greater than marketed capability. I'd believed in '83 that if a VAX or PDP-11 could network around the world a room should be easy enough. Also I'd seen what large machines could do years before and figured the only differnce doing it with a micro was either scale or speed. In the span from'82 to '89 with PCs getting faster and Ethernet and internet both catching on there was a communications explosion. What isn't discussed here is what the radio amateurs were doing with Packet networks and X.25 protocals. In some cases they were prototyping portable (toteable) networks. Allison From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 20:32:41 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:32:41 -0400 Subject: Catweasel NorthStar testers wanted Message-ID: <001801c7f5a5$fa5ebc30$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I have been working more on the Catweasel NorthStar project. After much searching, I have found the source of the apparent sector errors while reading good disks and have prepared a new version correcting the bugs. It can now read both of my test disks and make images without errors. Here is a sample of an image I have made of a disk from 1985 which came with my restored NorthStar Horizon: http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/CWNS-vintage.zip The CWNS project really could use some testers now. It can only make disk images of NorthStar hard sector single sided double density disks (SSDD). You'll need a working Catweasel to use it. Of course, some highly skilled developers would be greatly appreciated as well. Next up on the agenda: Make program read and process individual sectors rather than whole tracks Support more NorthStar hard sector disk formats (ie, DSDD, SSSD, etc) The program is still not ready for public release so any volunteers will have to request the program from me. Please contact me off list. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Sep 13 01:06:42 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:06:42 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAA9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I worked at DEC in '82 at the UK HQ (Decpark) I'm sure we had more than 50 nodes in the UK alone. The SET HOST list went on forever. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason Sent: 12 September 2007 20:46 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever On Wednesday 12 September 2007 15:08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >>> I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade > >>> show, and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here > >>> someplace, though I don't forsee me ever using them. > >> > >> ARCnet and most of the 'nets were in the price range of a hard disk > >> then. Also the whole idea of networking was new. For example in > >> 1982 the two largest networks I knew of were DEC (internal) and > >> Dupont(internal) and they were around 50 nodes! > > > > I remember those days, thinking of 50 nodes as being pretty good-sized. > > :-) > > IBM's internal network was significantly larger than that by '82. 8-) Of that I have no doubt! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 13 01:33:34 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:33:34 -0700 Subject: offlist: Re: EPROM programmer/readers References: Message-ID: <83e301c7f5d0$045ffa30$6600a8c0@vrsxp> > After putting it off for many, many years, I've decided to break down > and do it. I'm in the market for a device to read and program > EPROM's such as would be found in DEC or Commodore 64 hardware. > > Something that can also handle other chips (Such as PAL's) that I'd > find in DEC or Commodore hardware would be nice. > > I'm looking for something that is either dirt cheap, or that I can build. I've got some 29A and 29B programmers that you could probably have one of. They're even right here in town :-). I'm not sure which chip adapters I have spare, though. (You need the adapter that goes with the particular chip you wish to program.) Vince From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 13 01:34:52 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:34:52 -0700 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers References: Message-ID: <83e801c7f5d0$313a3750$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Dang it, I meant it to be offlist, but didn't fix the reply address. Sorry! Vince From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 13 01:52:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:52:51 -0700 Subject: Need a sanity check Message-ID: <46E87BD3.16468.1A4612A@cclist.sydex.com> I'm playing with a Computer Logics PCTD-16 Pertec tape drive interface board and my Fujitsu M2444AC drive. I can perform tape motion commands just fine, but data commands begin and do not seem to complete. I've checked that IDBY (J2 38 or W) comes ready at the end of a read or write, so my next guess is that I've got the cable wire wrong somewhow. My reference has this pin connected to pin 24 on the DC62 connector to the controller. Here's what I'm using: http://www.sydex.com/overcbl.html Have I missed something? Can anyone double-check this? Thanks, Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Sep 13 02:41:24 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:41:24 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71> Message-ID: <316101c7f5d9$7c6bdae0$6a01a8c0@liberator> IIRC the trs-80 model III and IV could network (saw it in use in a classroom) via cassette port (hazy memory here) the network III device IIRc, where it hooked to a main computer that had a HD, and let you load and save programs on diskless III'S and IV's From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 13 02:57:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:57:48 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <316101c7f5d9$7c6bdae0$6a01a8c0@liberator> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <316101c7f5d9$7c6bdae0$6a01a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2007 at 0:41, Geoff Reed wrote: > IIRC the trs-80 model III and IV could network (saw it in use in a > classroom) via cassette port (hazy memory here) the network III device IIRc, > where it hooked to a main computer that had a HD, and let you load and save > programs on diskless III'S and IV's I'm getting a little confused about the definition of "networking". What I've been interpreting as is making another computer's files and or drives or other resources appear (seamlessly) as part of the current host's resources. Just using a link to me doesn't imply "networking"--it's file transfer, perhaps, but not networking. And I'd also disqualify device-sharing, such as a MAC (multiple access controller) between an I/O device and two computers. Those go WAY back... Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Sep 13 02:59:06 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:59:06 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: <200709121700.l8CH0N2P056105@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200709130859.06745.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Thursday 13 September 2007 02:42:56 Scott Quinn wrote: > The good news is that the symbols (at least for modernish interfaces) > seem to be being standardized. Be nice if they back-standardized though > for things like serial and parallel. > > Another issue with words is "which $LANGUAGE" - I remember distinctly > opening up the Volvo service manual and being totally confused by > "bonnet" when I was about 12. I imagine that someone in England would > be even more confused by "hood" (since I think it means the drop-top on > a convertible over there). Symbols are fair in that they are equally > inconvienient for all. Again, offtopic at the risk of incurring Jay's wrath - maybe we should have a classiccmp-ot list for those of us that like to blether about the only tangentially-related things we're interested in - the workshop manual for my Citro?n CX has only got symbols for the various things like bolt torque, "do this with this plug disconnected" etc. One must assume that in other languages, the only section that's different is the one with the key to the symbols. ISTR it uses commas rather than decimal points in numbers. Gordon From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 13 03:20:11 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 04:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <316101c7f5d9$7c6bdae0$6a01a8c0@liberator> <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709130825.EAA06136@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'm getting a little confused about the definition of "networking". > What I've been interpreting as is making another computer's files and > or drives or other resources appear (seamlessly) as part of the > current host's resources. That may be an interesting thing to talk about, but by that definition most current stuff called "networking" isn't. For example, my house LAN at home then isn't "networking", because the sharing is not set up to appear seamless; accessing remote resources requires distinctive action of some sort, as compared to similar access to local resources. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Thu Sep 13 05:09:41 2007 From: pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:09:41 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <01MLB1HEDEWIJT56E6@vms.eurokom.ie> On 13/09/2007 00:10, Pete Turnbull wrote: >On 12/09/2007 20:03, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 14:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 9/12/07, M H Stein wrote: > > >>> You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? > > >> Until you mentioned it now, I never would have thought of it. > > > I never heard of that either, until I read it in that post... > >ISTR there was some Commodore diagnostic software that you could >transfer that way, and we certainly used the same technique to transfer >diagnostics from a BBC Micro with a disk drive to cassette-based >machines we were testing or repairing. That would be around 1982-85. >We put resistors in the cables to get the levels right. > I went one step further than that. I bought a couple of telephone line isolating transformers with a view to building some modems from magazine projects so that I could exchange programs with a friend who, like myself, had a BBC micro. I took a long time to get around to building the modems but in the meantime, I experimented with hooking the cassette port on the BBC to a phone line via a transformer and put in place a similar setup at my friends house. We used phones to make the initial connection and then switched in the transformers and issued LOAD and SAVE commands to transfer data. It was difficult to get everything synchronised correctly. Block numbers were displayed at the receiving end when data was being received but the sending end had no idea if things were working or not and the voice channel was not available while attempting transfers. As far as I recall though, we did manage to successfully transfer files at 300 baud but we didn't persue the idea further because of the slowness of the transfers and difficulty of setting everything up, not to mention the possibility of an error when transferring a large file requiring us to restart from the beginning. Regards, Peter. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 13 07:35:59 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 05:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <316101c7f5d9$7c6bdae0$6a01a8c0@liberator> from Geoff Reed at "Sep 13, 7 00:41:24 am" Message-ID: <200709131235.l8DCZx4E011752@floodgap.com> > IIRC the trs-80 model III and IV could network (saw it in use in a > classroom) via cassette port (hazy memory here) the network III device IIRc, > where it hooked to a main computer that had a HD, and let you load and save > programs on diskless III'S and IV's Not just them -- CoCos did this too. I assisted a 5th grade teacher who had a room full of CoCo 2's, using a rotary hub selector through the cassette ports, to download files from a CoCo 3 with a disk drive. We ran through the whole room typing CLOAD on every unit. After kids had written their own work, they could also upload it, and the teacher made a floppy disk copy for backup and archiving. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 13 07:43:42 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:43:42 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <316101c7f5d9$7c6bdae0$6a01a8c0@liberator> <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Sep 2007 at 0:41, Geoff Reed wrote: > >> IIRC the trs-80 model III and IV could network (saw it in use in a >> classroom) via cassette port (hazy memory here) the network III device IIRc, >> where it hooked to a main computer that had a HD, and let you load and save >> programs on diskless III'S and IV's > > I'm getting a little confused about the definition of "networking". > What I've been interpreting as is making another computer's files and > or drives or other resources appear (seamlessly) as part of the > current host's resources. > > Just using a link to me doesn't imply "networking"--it's file > transfer, perhaps, but not networking. I suppose I've always seen it as "electronically connected computers" or somesuch - i.e. it doesn't imply anything about what data is shared (or how), just that something *can* be transferred without sneakernetting information around. > And I'd also disqualify device-sharing, such as a MAC (multiple > access controller) between an I/O device and two computers. So would I, just because I think that networking is about connecting computers together, not computers to peripherals (but I realise it gets a bit fuzzy when you have things like printers with Ethernet interfaces) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Sep 13 08:14:46 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:14:46 -0300 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers References: Message-ID: <00b701c7f608$bdd124c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I'm looking for something that is either dirt cheap, or that I can build. TOP 2004/TOP2008 you can find on EBAY. Dirt cheap. I don't like it but it works. From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Sep 13 10:02:07 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:02:07 -0300 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <01C7F5FE.00703380@mandr71> ------------Original Message(s): From: "Ethan Dicks" Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 14:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 9/12/07, M H Stein wrote: > > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > > > > >Since I couldn't afford an IEEE-488 disk drive... I fabricated my own > > > >nybble-with-handshake cable between the user ports of the PET and the > > > >C-64... > > > > > > You mean you didn't just make a simple cassette "null modem" cable? > > > Just a passive cable? Do you have any special notes, or was it just > > SAVE "FOO", 1 and LOAD "FOO", 1? > > I was wondering if you'd want the ",1" in there or not myself. In this case, the '1' is to designate cassette drive 1 (PETs have two, C-64s have one). It's probably optional, but I included it out of habit. -ethan ============= Reply: And of course there's the venerable Shift Run/Stop sequence; I wonder at what point that changed from loading the first tape program to the first one on disk.. m From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Sep 13 10:02:04 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:02:04 -0300 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <01C7F5FD.FF52DCA0@mandr71> ------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:56:02 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever On Wednesday 12 September 2007 19:45, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > You don't even need "rs232 levels". > > MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it? Yup! But my point is that in prototyping some small SBC the rs232 stuff is about the only thing on there typically that needs other than logic power (+5V) unless there's some analog stuff there on the board that needs it. MIDI, in every implementation I've ever seen, uses only a 5V supply. I never did understand why current loops weren't used more... ======================== -----------Reply: On short runs you can usually get away with TTL levels on RS-232 as long as you limit the input voltage swing with a resistor and a couple of diodes or use an optocoupler. m From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 11:08:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:08:27 -0500 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <01C7F5FE.00703380@mandr71> References: <01C7F5FE.00703380@mandr71> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, M H Stein wrote: > And of course there's the venerable Shift Run/Stop sequence; I wonder at what > point that changed from loading the first tape program to the first one on disk.. I'd have to suggest BASIC 4, with the 4032 and 8032 line. It went from LOADRUN to dL"*RUN to avoid having to change the size of the string in ROM. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 13 11:15:18 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:15:18 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709130903.04782.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> References: <46E5D1B7.4080805@yahoo.co.uk> <008d01c7f59d$509681e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200709130903.04782.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <53011105-9799-40BE-AA89-86F15D738E15@neurotica.com> On Sep 13, 2007, at 4:03 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> I first came across this myself in the mid-90s. I'd picked up a >> copy of >> "Elektor" for the first time in almost 10 years and was surprised >> that they >> didn't provide any listings of any form for the projects based >> around PICs, >> you had to send away for pre-programmed parts. > > That's about when I remember seeing it happen; also with an article in > (possibly) PE&EE about building a Z80-based SBC that ran Forth. > > These days when you can build a simple PIC or ATMEL programmer from > a couple > of components, or buy an EPROM programmer off eBay for about a tenner, > there's not really an excuse. > > Ob. on-topic: does anyone remember the Forth SBC article I was > talking about, > and does a copy of it exist online anywhere? I'd like to see that too, if anyone finds it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 13 11:44:46 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:44:46 -0700 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers In-Reply-To: <00b701c7f608$bdd124c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <00b701c7f608$bdd124c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: At 10:14 AM -0300 9/13/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>I'm looking for something that is either dirt cheap, or that I can build. > > TOP 2004/TOP2008 you can find on EBAY. Dirt cheap. I don't like >it but it works. What don't you like about it? I'd spotted the TOP2005 programmers on eBay. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 13 12:15:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:15:21 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46E90DB9.30822.3DE46DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2007 at 13:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose I've always seen it as "electronically connected computers" or > somesuch - i.e. it doesn't imply anything about what data is shared (or how), > just that something *can* be transferred without sneakernetting information > around. So my use of the acoustic-coupled modem out of a TI Silent 700 on my MITS Altair 8800 to a CDC 6600 over phone lines was networking in 1976? I did my source prep and assembly on the mainframe and just downloaded my programs to run them. Of course, I had to key in the basic terminal/download code via the front panel switches, but that wasn't a big deal. As far as coupling two computers together--well, that's VERY old. Goes back to the 1950's at least and probably is older than that. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 13 12:39:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:39:34 -0700 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> I spotted this in my morning news perusal: "Digitization? The entire network runs on software known as Jovial, so old there are only six programmers in the country who know how to write it. And incredible as it seems, family minivans with NavStar have more sophisticated location guidance than some aircraft." from: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20724859/ Well, make that seven. I remember JOVIAL (it's all caps BTW). Worked on an NWL (or maybe it was NSRDC) project in it. Anyone else? Cheers, Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Sep 13 12:56:32 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:56:32 -0700 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, make that seven. I remember JOVIAL (it's all caps BTW). Now that IS a blast from the past. "Jules Own Version of the International Algebraic Language", sort of like Algol on crack. My interactions with it were mercifully brief. I recall that diagnostics from the compiler were pretty much limited to printing out the offending line followed by a new line and the message "Error above". A subsequent version of the compiler had enhanced diagnostics, replacing "Error above" with "Error above, eh?" *shudders* Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 13 13:10:39 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:10:39 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> <46E90DB9.30822.3DE46DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E97D20.27EECB46@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > As far as coupling two computers together--well, that's VERY old. > Goes back to the 1950's at least and probably is older than that. SAGE and SABRE (which was influenced significantly by SAGE), to my knowledge. I don't when the network concepts for SAGE were thought up: in the early 50s when the first air defense system tests were being done on Whirlwind, or later in the 50s. (On the looser end of the network definition, Stibitz's Bell relay calculators had remote terminals.) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 13 13:03:12 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:03:12 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E90DB9.30822.3DE46DB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> <46E90DB9.30822.3DE46DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E97B60.2010509@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Sep 2007 at 13:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I suppose I've always seen it as "electronically connected computers" or >> somesuch - i.e. it doesn't imply anything about what data is shared (or how), >> just that something *can* be transferred without sneakernetting information >> around. > > So my use of the acoustic-coupled modem out of a TI Silent 700 on my > MITS Altair 8800 to a CDC 6600 over phone lines was networking in > 1976? I don't see why not; serial comms (over whatever medium) connecting two machines is still 'networking' in my book. I the case you mention it may well be only point-to-point rather than "lots of machines on the same line", but I still think it qualifies. > As far as coupling two computers together--well, that's VERY old. > Goes back to the 1950's at least and probably is older than that. No argument here. cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 13 13:13:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:13:17 -0600 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <46E97DBD.7060708@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris Kennedy wrote: > My interactions with it were mercifully brief. I recall that > diagnostics from the compiler were pretty much limited to printing out > the offending line followed by a new line and the message "Error above". > A subsequent version of the compiler had enhanced diagnostics, > replacing "Error above" with "Error above, eh?" Must be the Canadian Version of the the compiler. :) But then I don't expect you have a large amount of memory, 8K words sounds about right for typical larger machines as a guess. > *shudders* > Chris From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 13:13:23 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:13:23 -0400 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <46E97DC3.5040108@gmail.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: >> Well, make that seven. I remember JOVIAL (it's all caps BTW). > > Now that IS a blast from the past. "Jules Own Version of the > International Algebraic Language", sort of like Algol on crack. With a description like that, I have just got to try this language. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 13 13:31:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:31:19 -0700 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <46E91F87.1178.423D33F@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2007 at 10:56, Chris Kennedy wrote: > My interactions with it were mercifully brief. I recall that > diagnostics from the compiler were pretty much limited to printing out > the offending line followed by a new line and the message "Error above". > A subsequent version of the compiler had enhanced diagnostics, > replacing "Error above" with "Error above, eh?" I suspect that the real thrust of the article is that all the old flight-control software has gotten very creaky and patched so that very few people understand the operation in detail. The programming language is most likely a non-issue. This was (and perhaps still is) a common pattern in the military and the government. Perhaps the granddaddy of such boondoggle was the Air Force Logistics Command's effort back in the 70's to modernize their tracking and inventory system which was then implemented on some rather creaky 7080's. After hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain, Senator Proxmire finally threatened contempt of Congress charges at the general heading up the program and it stopped. The outcome was that AFLC went back to running their old 7080 code in emulation mode on, IIRC, S/370 hardware. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 13 13:40:00 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:40:00 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> <46E90DB9.30822.3DE46DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E98400.8B3B8825@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > As far as coupling two computers together--well, that's VERY old. > Goes back to the 1950's at least and probably is older than that. ..just remembered.. BINAC (late 40's, Eckert/Mauchly, before UNIVAC) was a dual-redundant processor design for reliability. Stretches the definition of network too far perhaps, in that the processors ran the same instruction stream but interesting to note in the context of the discussion. From drb at msu.edu Thu Sep 13 13:44:27 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:44:27 -0400 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:39:34 PDT.) <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709131844.l8DIiRU0028324@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > "Digitization? The entire network runs on software known as Jovial, It seems the military still maintains JOVIAL development tools. I'm tempted to inquire how one obtains them, as I've always intended to learn the language. Anyone have these things, or know what it takes to obtain them? http://www.jovial.hill.af.mil/ De From shumaker at att.net Thu Sep 13 13:45:50 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:45:50 +0000 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past Message-ID: <091320071845.24097.46E9855E0004DE6600005E2121602813029D0A050E039A089C@att.net> all caps because it's an acronym... Jule's Own Version of the International Algorythmic Language developed at SDC in Santa Monica more than a few moons ago s shumaker -------------- Original message from "Chuck Guzis" : -------------- > I spotted this in my morning news perusal: > > "Digitization? The entire network runs on software known as Jovial, > so old there are only six programmers in the country who know how to > write it. And incredible as it seems, family minivans with NavStar > have more sophisticated location guidance than some aircraft." > > from: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20724859/ > > Well, make that seven. I remember JOVIAL (it's all caps BTW). > Worked on an NWL (or maybe it was NSRDC) project in it. Anyone else? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 13 13:46:41 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:46:41 -0400 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: <46E97DC3.5040108@gmail.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> <46E97DC3.5040108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3E3F3F12-6C86-45B2-A3FB-04FCF68F8953@neurotica.com> On Sep 13, 2007, at 2:13 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Well, make that seven. I remember JOVIAL (it's all caps BTW). >> Now that IS a blast from the past. "Jules Own Version of the >> International Algebraic Language", sort of like Algol on crack. > > With a description like that, I have just got to try this language. I was thinking exactly the same thing. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Sep 13 14:02:28 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:02:28 -0300 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers References: <00b701c7f608$bdd124c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <008b01c7f639$b8e23630$f0fea8c0@alpha> > What don't you like about it? I'd spotted the TOP2005 programmers on > eBay. When you buy an eprom burner, you expect some kind of "lifelong support" and a very strong software. TOP2005 has nothing of that. I have a Beeprog (from Elnec) that has almost DAILY updates, and all machines they make/made uses the same software, and isn't so expensive at all. And, as a good tool, if you find something that doesn't works, Elnec makes another beta version for you asap (ex: in one or two days). Try that with the chineses :) From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 13 16:26:37 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:26:37 -0400 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709131726.37453.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 13 September 2007 01:42, Zane H. Healy wrote: > After putting it off for many, many years, I've decided to break down > and do it. I'm in the market for a device to read and program > EPROM's such as would be found in DEC or Commodore 64 hardware. The c64 never used EPROMs, only masked ROMs. Though there were one or two aftermarket devices that would use 'em, typically with an adapter. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 13 16:33:33 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:33:33 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <0JO900LT1779CKN1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JO900LT1779CKN1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200709131733.33854.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 07:43, Allison wrote: > Mine started when I needed to get stuff from the various CP/M systems > that even when they had disks were incompatable hard sector to soft > or 8 and 5.25. I started with serial peer to peer as in pipmodem and > similar. Pipmodem? That's a new one on me, though the name is pretty suggestive. > Later I did a two system resource sharing that grew to allow up to a > potential 256 systems. In '82 the whole thing peaked with a multiprocessor > S100 crate with intercommunications via pooled memory. How was that handled in the hardware, particularly with regard to contention for access? I vaguely recall running across some multiport memory chips, but their capacity wasn't anywhere near what was currently in use that didn't have that feature. > All of the things I did and got to see and use colored my perception > of what computers could do. Usually it was far greater than marketed > capability. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 13 16:36:06 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:36:06 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71> <316101c7f5d9$7c6bdae0$6a01a8c0@liberator> <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709131736.06459.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 13 September 2007 03:57, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Sep 2007 at 0:41, Geoff Reed wrote: > > IIRC the trs-80 model III and IV could network (saw it in use in a > > classroom) via cassette port (hazy memory here) the network III device > > IIRc, where it hooked to a main computer that had a HD, and let you load > > and save programs on diskless III'S and IV's > > I'm getting a little confused about the definition of "networking". > What I've been interpreting as is making another computer's files and > or drives or other resources appear (seamlessly) as part of the > current host's resources. > > Just using a link to me doesn't imply "networking"--it's file > transfer, perhaps, but not networking. > > And I'd also disqualify device-sharing, such as a MAC (multiple > access controller) between an I/O device and two computers. Those go > WAY back... I'm not familiar with such stuff. Me, I'd accept a somewhat broader definition, I guess. "Sharing resource" covers a bunch of it, and even file transfer is pretty handy stuff when you want to move information around... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 16:40:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:40:56 -0500 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers In-Reply-To: <200709131726.37453.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200709131726.37453.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/13/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Thursday 13 September 2007 01:42, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > After putting it off for many, many years, I've decided to break down > > and do it. I'm in the market for a device to read and program > > EPROM's such as would be found in DEC or Commodore 64 hardware. > > The c64 never used EPROMs, only masked ROMs. Though there were one or two > aftermarket devices that would use 'em, typically with an adapter. Perhaps not _in_ the C-64, but there were plenty of cartridges and peripherals that used EPROMs - typically the 2732 or 2764. -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 13 16:42:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:42:22 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <01C7F5FD.FF52DCA0@mandr71> References: <01C7F5FD.FF52DCA0@mandr71> Message-ID: <200709131742.22746.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 13 September 2007 11:02, M H Stein wrote: > ------------Original Message: > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:56:02 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > > On Wednesday 12 September 2007 19:45, Ensor wrote: > > Hi, > > > > > You don't even need "rs232 levels". > > > > MIDI is a "current loop" interface isn't it? > > Yup! > > But my point is that in prototyping some small SBC the rs232 stuff is about > the only thing on there typically that needs other than logic power (+5V) > unless there's some analog stuff there on the board that needs it. > > MIDI, in every implementation I've ever seen, uses only a 5V supply. > > I never did understand why current loops weren't used more... > > ======================== > -----------Reply: > > On short runs you can usually get away with TTL levels on RS-232 as long > as you limit the input voltage swing with a resistor and a couple of diodes > or use an optocoupler. Hmm. TTL levels and an opto? Sounds like MIDI to me... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 13 16:44:38 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:44:38 -0400 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71> <46E9307E.20300@yahoo.co.uk> <46E91366.28907.3F473F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709131744.38479.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 13 September 2007 13:39, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I spotted this in my morning news perusal: > > "Digitization? The entire network runs on software known as Jovial, > so old there are only six programmers in the country who know how to > write it. And incredible as it seems, family minivans with NavStar > have more sophisticated location guidance than some aircraft." > > from: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20724859/ > > Well, make that seven. I remember JOVIAL (it's all caps BTW). "Jules Own Version of the International Algorithmic Language"...? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 15:49:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:49:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709111600j31d60a51ua369fc74367f8d92@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 12, 7 00:00:46 am Message-ID: > > On 11/09/2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my comput= > er i=3D > > > s > > > > totally beyond me... > > > > > > I never can tell with you, Tony, whether you faking it and taking the > > > mick, being deliberately obtuse to make some kind of point, or > > > genuinely think in a very strange way. > > > > I'm being deadly serious. If asomebody can't match up a 7 character wor= > d > > ('printer') no matter what their native language is, then I don't want > > them anywhere near any of my computers. > > Why should certain people be put at a disadvantage in dealing with a > foreign language, script or alphabet, when a simple icon is > international? You still don't get it, do you? If there was a _standard_ icon used by every manufactuer to me 'parallel printer port' then yes, that would be clear and understandable. But there isn't. Maybe the symbol for 'printer' is pretty much recognisable, but there are plenty of other icons I've seen on connector panels that aren't. Without the manual (and how many of us here can honestly claim to have manuals for every bit of computer hardwre they own), you're prrtty much reduced to tracing out connections inside to work out what the darn connector is for. Also, please not that 'printer' does not necessarily imply a TTL-level parallel port. Suppose I make a machine that uses an RS232-interfaced serial printer. I, li,ing to stick to standards, use a DB25 connector for this, and I wire it as a DCE (since printing terminals are clearly DTEs). Which implies the printer connector on my machine is a socket. I label it with a 'printer' icon. What's the betting soembody plugs a PC-type parallel printer lead in there and blows up their printer (Centronics compatible prionters don't like -12V on the D1 line :-)). Who's to blame? And perhaps you could suggest icoss for : ADC input User Port System Bus (and if you dare suggest a picture of a Routemaster, I will LART you.) Autodialer interface And yo away from computers for the moment, how would you, using icons, label the 'RF gain', 'IF gain' and 'AF gain' controls of a radio? (and yes, at least one of my receivers has all 3 has serparate front panel user controls) > > You may not like icons, but the rest of the world does, which is why I think there are many people here who prefer words to icons. > every desktop computer, every mobile phone, every PDA and millions of There are no icons on any of the desktop computers that I use regularly (not even on the screen), apaart from the ones I mentioned in a previous message for the front of an IBM PC/AT. My cellular phone doesn't have any icons either. Plenty of English words, though I don't have a PDA. I have plenty of pocket calculators, all of them icon-free. None of my camears have icons on them either. On the other hand, I have several cameras with a 'Z' on the shutter speed dial for time exposures. Z = Zeit, of courst. THis doesn't confuse me, for all I never learn German. > It's about not pushing one person or region's language in favour of > anyone else. It's about being culturally neutral. This is a good > thing. I disagree totally. I can think of many more situations where removing culterial bias has caused problems than situations where it's avoided them -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 13 16:47:34 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:47:34 -0400 Subject: Another (Language) blast from the past In-Reply-To: <46E91F87.1178.423D33F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71> <46E979D0.7020602@mainecoon.com> <46E91F87.1178.423D33F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709131747.34751.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 13 September 2007 14:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Sep 2007 at 10:56, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > My interactions with it were mercifully brief. I recall that > > diagnostics from the compiler were pretty much limited to printing out > > the offending line followed by a new line and the message "Error above". > > A subsequent version of the compiler had enhanced diagnostics, > > replacing "Error above" with "Error above, eh?" > > I suspect that the real thrust of the article is that all the old > flight-control software has gotten very creaky and patched so that > very few people understand the operation in detail. The programming > language is most likely a non-issue. This was (and perhaps still is) > a common pattern in the military and the government. > > Perhaps the granddaddy of such boondoggle was the Air Force Logistics > Command's effort back in the 70's to modernize their tracking and > inventory system which was then implemented on some rather creaky > 7080's. After hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain, > Senator Proxmire finally threatened contempt of Congress charges at > the general heading up the program and it stopped. The outcome was > that AFLC went back to running their old 7080 code in emulation mode > on, IIRC, S/370 hardware. Speaking of such stuff, does anybody know what the deal is with the air traffic control stuff used at most airports? I keep reading things about how ancient and creaky the hardware is, how they're afraid to work on it for fear of breaking it further, how it's supposed to be upgraded Real Soon Now, and so forth... Anybody know what they're using? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 16:15:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:15:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <575131af0709121048o176bb4ddif8aef6c3a7a19b50@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 12, 7 06:48:53 pm Message-ID: > But there were other cheapo serial networks back then: Sinclair > bundled networking in the ZX Interface 1 for the Spectrum, which was, The SInclair netowrk, at least from what I've read in the QL service manual/schematics, was similar in consept to the serial port netowrks mentioned here. There was a 2 wirte bus (signal and ground) linking all machines, terminated by ressitors at eash end [1] All the machines monitored the siagnal wire, any machine could drive it (and by monitoring while it was driving it, it detected collisions). The termination resistors were built into all the machines, connected up using the 'break contacts' of the 3,5mm jack sockets (OK 'mini phone socket' across the Pond'. You connected a cable from one machine to the next, and the empty sockets on the 2 'end' amchines automatically connected the resistors to the network. > I think, compatible with the networking of the later Sinclair QL. Also > there was Acorn's Econet, of course. > > I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems', Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't have persisted with it. > outside of a show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in > schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile. I've never seen it used. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 16:22:40 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:22:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709111552n2ba98216r7e4a4cc443587852@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 11, 7 11:52:00 pm Message-ID: > OTOH, I have set up many a serial printer. RS232 was a complete pain > in the **** and I am very glad to see it die. Start bits, stop bits, I wasn't aware RS232 had died, at least not on this list (I am on classiccmp, right?). Looking around me, I can see well over 100 RS232 ports, and _no_ USB prots (or indeed machines that could take USB ports). > word length, parity, baud rate - hateful. Apple could do it right in > 1984; there was no good reason for everyone else in the industry to To be fair, the Apple serial printer interace was only easy if you wanted to link an Apple printer to an Apple computer. If you wanted to use some other printer on your Mac is was about as difficult as doing that with any other compter. Similarly, linking an HP computer (say an HP150) to an HP printer was alost as easy -- sure there were the various parameters to set up, but the manual took you through them (basically, 'set this option to this value, in the end the screen will look like this'). > screw it up. I've met only one device that strictly followed the RS232 standard, and that was the HP82164 interface. And a right pain it is too, since nobody else followed that standrd. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 16:08:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:08:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 874D power controller In-Reply-To: <719ge3liq3fsru16fm08llpfkt0hhohqb7@4ax.com> from "Charles" at Sep 12, 7 12:45:37 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have the schematic for an 874-D power controller? > Or better yet, a good used circuit breaker? Given that your problem is (a) obvious and (b) involves what a friend of mine calles 'big components' :-), do you really need a scheamtic? Can't you just trace the wiring to the breaker, mains filter, outlet sockets, contactor, etc? [...] > It looks like the (original-type) Heinemann breakers are available > from Newark, and similar ones from Mouser that will probably fit, > but they are *very* expensive new... I don't see how a schematic (or printset) will help, it's not going to show any internal details of the breaker. I guess you have to 'bite the bullet' and pay for the replacement, alas. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 16:36:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:36:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Sep 12, 7 06:42:56 pm Message-ID: > Another issue with words is "which $LANGUAGE" - I remember distinctly > opening up the Volvo service manual and being totally confused by > "bonnet" when I was about 12. I imagine that someone in England would At least one of my English car workshop manuals -- I think it's for the Mini -- has a list of American terms and their UK-English translations at the front :-) To go more on-topic, I have a fair number of continetnal European electronic/computer manuals. Not only do I not read the various languages, but the symbols on the schematisc are different from those in UK/USA diagrams. Resistor are long, thin, rectanges with wires coming out of the middle of the short sides (and with various lines inside the rectangle to indicate LDR, wirewound resistor, etc), widings are think lines joing the wires, OR gates look like AND gates, but have the input linds estended across the symbol to meet the curved part of the 'D', etc. I soon got used to reading either. [...] > What I would like to see is connectors designed to be easy to mate. I I'd like to see connectors that are easy to _wire_. The mini-DIN does _not_ come in that category! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 16:42:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:42:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709130859.06745.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Sep 13, 7 08:59:06 am Message-ID: > tangentially-related things we're interested in - the workshop manual for= > my=20 > Citro=EBn CX has only got symbols for the various things like bolt torque= > , "do=20 > this with this plug disconnected" etc. One must assume that in other=20 The BX manual is like that too. There are a few pages of text (which presumably were translated into various languages), but all the diagrams have symbols, not text. I also rememebr 'G' and 'D' instead of 'L' and 'R', 'Av' and 'Ar' instead of 'front' and 'back' and so on. The (much older) DS and ID manuals are in strnage binders that open along the top[ edge to real 2 portrait-format 'books' one of text, the other of diagrams. I think the latter is pretty much language-neutral. -tony From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Sep 13 16:51:08 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:51:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Zen and the art of RL02 maintainance In-Reply-To: <200709131238.l8DCcCEF069273@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709131238.l8DCcCEF069273@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1189720268.46e9b0ccb5d4d@www.jblaser.org> Josh Dersch said: > Just picked up an RL02 for a song. It's a bit beat up looking, but it > seems pretty clean inside, so far. Glad it was for a song, and not for money! ;) > It's kind of a moot point at the moment, since I have no disk packs, > cabling, or interface boards (so I can't use the darned thing until I > complete a scavenger hunt...) but I'm wondering what I should check out > on this machine before I power it on & (eventually) start using it... Having been through four RL01 in the past 12 months, I might have something to offer. By no means am I the RL0x drive expert, but here goes... For me, the very first thing that is done (after the exterior cleaning, of course) is the reform the capacitors. These RL0x drives have two capacitors of interest: a 66,000 uF 30V, and a 22,000 uF 40V. I suppose it happens all the time, but I don't like to power up anything until I've removed the capacitors and put them through the reform(ul?)ation regime. Don't want to be too pedantic, but here are the steps I took: - remove the service cover (4 screws), then cartridge door/cover. - clean the interior as required (vacuum, Windex) - lift the DC servo PCB, make a note of the connections, disconnect the power connector - carefully lift and rotate the box above the head actuator to get access underneath - disconnect gounding wires to lugs on I/O PCB in service cover, and the inside of the rear chassis. You may find another wire to the head actuator 'box', too. - remove the four screws on the rear panel to remove the power supply (the whole rear chassis panel). Be careful as you loosen screws since the rear panel is top heavy and my tilt out when you least expect it. - Now you have full access to the PS and can disconnect and reform the caps. While the caps are reforming, here are a few other things you should consider: - take a vacuum hose to the inside of the cabinet and then wipe (windex for me) every surface. - remove the front bezel/cover to get access to the switch assembly. - your coarse filter is probably falling apart as mine were. I replaced the filter with some new-fangled Dupont furnace filter (mumble the name) which has three components: a rigid plastic stabilizing grid, a very course filter, and a fine (10 micron) filter mesh. I cut a rectangle of the fine mesh to fit and held it in place with the stabilizing grid, alos cut to fit. It works very, very well. - When the caps are done, put it all back together, and enjoy! :) I have a couple of drives the sort of quietly squeal a bit when first spun up, but I never found any information on lubrication, etc., and they quiet up after about 30 seconds, so I don't worry too much. Lastly, be cautious around the head actuator. The heads and the spindle (plate) are carefully aligned, and I wouldn't remove or adjust either of these. Unless, that is, you have the printsets and proper tools (which I don't). Good luck! - Jared From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 13 16:53:03 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:53:03 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Electronics_101] On this day Message-ID: <200709131753.03449.rtellason@verizon.net> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [Electronics_101] On this day Date: Thursday 13 September 2007 18:05 From: Bruce To: Electronics_101 at yahoogroups.com From Wikipedia, 1956 - IBM unveiled the 305 RAMAC (Random Access Method of Accounting and Control), the first commercial computer that used magnetic disk storage . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_305_RAMAC Though this would be interesting. Just one of the large boxes in the picture, hold almost as much as a DVD does today. Just show how far we have come. ------------------------------------------------------- -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 13 17:16:14 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:16:14 -0400 Subject: Zen and the art of RL02 maintainance In-Reply-To: <1189720268.46e9b0ccb5d4d@www.jblaser.org> References: <200709131238.l8DCcCEF069273@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1189720268.46e9b0ccb5d4d@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <200709131816.14839.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 13 September 2007, J Blaser wrote: > Lastly, be cautious around the head actuator. The heads and the > spindle (plate) are carefully aligned, and I wouldn't remove or > adjust either of these. Unless, that is, you have the printsets and > proper tools (which I don't). Actually, the RL02/RL01 is an embedded servo drive, so "head alignment" generally isn't critical, at least like it is with the RK0n drives. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Sep 13 17:30:43 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:30:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Zen and the art of RL02 maintainance Message-ID: <1189722642.46e9ba1302e38@www.jblaser.org> Pat said: > On Thursday 13 September 2007, J Blaser wrote: >> Lastly, be cautious around the head actuator. The heads and the >> spindle (plate) are carefully aligned, and I wouldn't remove or >> adjust either of these. Unless, that is, you have the printsets and >> proper tools (which I don't). > Actually, the RL02/RL01 is an embedded servo drive, so "head alignment" > generally isn't critical, at least like it is with the RK0n drives. Yes, excellent point. I was thinking more in terms of the possibility of getting the horizontal forward/backward 'tilt' a little bit off, that is, when the heads are on the outer tracks versus when the heads are extended to the inner tracks, is the flying height the same? Also, I might add that I removed the platter brushes from three of my RL01s last year, based on commentary here on the list and other groups. I'm not sure if RL02s were ever produced with brushes, but if so, it might be worth checking. The three RL02s that I have in another PDP-11/23 PLUS never had them. - Jared From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Sep 13 17:38:58 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:38:58 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1189723138.31084.6.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 21:49 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > And perhaps you could suggest icoss for : > > ADC input > User Port > System Bus (and if you dare suggest a picture of a Routemaster, I will > LART you.) > Autodialer interface > > And yo away from computers for the moment, how would you, using icons, > label the 'RF gain', 'IF gain' and 'AF gain' controls of a radio? (and > yes, at least one of my receivers has all 3 has serparate front panel > user controls) I think we're drifting somewhat away from the point here. The vast majority of computers made in the past, oooh maybe 25 years perhaps, at least 20, have been intended for Joe Average Consumer to buy and use. By "computer" I mean an actual personal computer, not embedded controllers, washing machines that happen to be computer controlled, VCRs or anything of the like. I mean things like the Apple Macintosh, the Amstrad PCW8xxx and 9xxx series, and PCs. They're not meant for people like you or I who *will* gut the thing and trace out the connectors if we have to. They're meant for people like my Mum, who is so non-technical that I have previously driven a 440-mile round trip to reset a circuit breaker simply because it was quicker and easier than trying to talk her through finding the fusebox. AF Gain? That would be a sort of left-to-right ramp thing, as is standard on very nearly every bit of audio consumer equipment I've ever seen. RF and IF gain you wouldn't normally expect to see on a bit of consumer equipment. It's perfectly OK to label highly specialised equipment with words, because you've got a reasonable expectation that someone who cares enough to know what they mean is using it. It still doesn't excuse having a physically-but-not-functionally interchangeable connector for PS/2 mice and keyboards, though. That is where USB has a big win. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Sep 13 17:49:48 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:49:48 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1189723788.31084.11.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-09-13 at 22:15 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > The termination resistors were built into all the machines, connected up > using the 'break contacts' of the 3,5mm jack sockets (OK 'mini phone > socket' across the Pond'. You connected a cable from one machine to the > next, and the empty sockets on the 2 'end' amchines automatically > connected the resistors to the network. Except when the sockets were too slack and didn't make contact with the NC terminal properly. > > I think, compatible with the networking of the later Sinclair QL. Also > > there was Acorn's Econet, of course. > > > > I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system > > Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems', > Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron > mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't > available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't > have persisted with it. I've seen an Electron expansion box with what I'm lead to believe is an Econet interface. I haven't seen it working. > > outside of a show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in > > schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile. > > I've never seen it used. A friend of mine who had a QL and a Spectrum with an Interface 1 and I tried it - one QL, two Spectrums. It sort of worked. If you knew what you were looking for you could share files, kind of. You could also redirect streams from one machine to another. In total we played with it for about an hour, then his Mum called us down for dinner. That was nearly^H^H^H^H^H^H over 15 years ago now, we've never got back to it. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 13 17:59:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:59:59 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709131736.06459.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C7F59B.BAC72DA0@mandr71>, <46E88B0C.10598.1DFD772@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709131736.06459.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E95E7F.8166.519CA0A@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2007 at 17:36, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > And I'd also disqualify device-sharing, such as a MAC (multiple > > access controller) between an I/O device and two computers. Those go > > WAY back... > > I'm not familiar with such stuff. Ah, showing my age. "Back in the day" you might have two otherwise independent mainframes and, say, two printers. To have a system do nothing but wait for a print job to finish while only one of the printers was busy is a huge waste of resources. A card punch might be an infrequenly used piece of equipment, so why have two? Or a printer could be offline for maintenance, but why take the machine it was attached to down also? Or, instead of having two banks of 8 tape drives for two machines, why not whittle that down to, say 12, and allow the drives to be shared? IIRC, most vendors offered some sort of a MAC facility, even if it was a QSE. CDC certainly did. Of course, direct coupling of computers was also done, either via a special I/O device or even shared bulk core. But we never called that "networking". Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 13 18:00:19 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:00:19 -0600 Subject: ebay: Tartan Terminal System "Key to tape system" Message-ID: Anyone know what this is? Looks like a weird data entry system to key in data and store it on tape for processing who knows how. Although the description could just be off... ebay item # 250164567149 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 13 18:10:21 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:10:21 -0400 Subject: ebay: Tartan Terminal System "Key to tape system" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200709132310.l8DNANWx047595@billy.ezwind.net> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:00:19 -0600, Richard wrote: >Anyone know what this is? Looks like a weird data entry system to key >in data and store it on tape for processing who knows how. Although >the description could just be off... >ebay item # 250164567149 >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! It was used by a data service to do key to tape "keypunching" of data for processing on a 4331. It replaced a Mohawk Data Systems Key to tape system which is where the little tables came from. Altho it is not mine, I have a key to the building and access to it and the docs what do you want to know ? There are 2 complete systems, and a bunch of spare parts/boards. Bob Bradlee From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 13 18:15:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:15:03 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [Electronics_101] On this day In-Reply-To: <200709131753.03449.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200709131753.03449.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E96207.31454.527932D@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2007 at 17:53, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Though this would be interesting. Just one of the large boxes in the > picture, hold almost as much as a DVD does today. Just show how far we > have come. Try about 3 3.5 DSHD floppies. A DVD is orders of magnitude larger. It seems to me that Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry once had a model of one whose operation could be observed (i.e. much of the box "skins" were stripped away so you could observe the head moving up and down the stack. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 13 18:17:50 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:17:50 -0400 Subject: ebay: Tartan Terminal System "Key to tape system" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709131917.50587.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 13 September 2007 19:00, Richard wrote: > Anyone know what this is? Looks like a weird data entry system to key > in data and store it on tape for processing who knows how. Although > the description could just be off... > > ebay item # 250164567149 I believe I ran across one such system in recent years, belonging to the PA Department of Labor and Industry. They had a bunch of peecees running NT that all worked toward some box on the other side of the room that dumped things on to a tape for who knows what. I'm not sure if they still do that or not... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 13 18:10:42 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:10:42 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E9C372.2030709@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system > > Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems', > Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron > mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't > available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't > have persisted with it. It was a plug-in module on the Risc PC as I recall (different in design to the ones used on the Master and Archimedes machines). Even the A4 laptop had Econet ability. There was also the Ecolink board made by Acorn - a full-length ISA card for an x86 PC, containing a 6502, RAM, and the familiar 68B54 ADLC chip. I don't think Acorn ever sold many - Acorn and x86 PC users just tended to move in different circles, so there wasn't much call for a crossover. Torch also used Econet ("TorchNet") on their systems which used the BBC micro system board as the I/O processor, of course. Plus I recently found out that SJ Research released an Econet board for the RML 380Z - something of a surprise given how RML used to push their own co-ax network technology. Other than those two examples I'm not aware of it ever migrating to other manufacturers, though. No idea if that was just down to no need, or whether Acorn imposed some nasty licensing fees on people who wanted to use it (they certainly seemed open enough about the protocols and hardware) >> outside of a show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in >> schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile. What happened with the QL machines (and, by extension, the ICL OPD)? Did they also feature the same network ability? I just wonder if it was a little more widespread there if so, even if it wasn't popular with the Z80-based machines. (At one point I went to a rural school where there were around 30 kids in the entire place. The sole computer was a 48K Spectrum - which spent most of its life running Manic Miner...) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 13 18:23:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:23:30 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tartan Terminal System "Key to tape system" In-Reply-To: <200709132310.l8DNANWx047595@billy.ezwind.net> References: , <200709132310.l8DNANWx047595@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46E96402.7679.52F5152@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2007 at 19:10, Bob Bradlee wrote: > It was used by a data service to do key to tape "keypunching" of data > for processing on a 4331. > > It replaced a Mohawk Data Systems Key to tape system which is where > the little tables came from. Is this the same "Tartan Terminal" that was marketed by Recognition Equipment--the OCR gear maker? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 13 18:27:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:27:08 -0600 Subject: ebay: Tartan Terminal System "Key to tape system" In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:10:21 -0400. <200709132310.l8DNANWx047595@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200709132310.l8DNANWx047595 at billy.ezwind.net>, "Bob Bradlee" writes: > Altho it is not mine, I have a key to the building and access to it > and the d > ocs what do you want to know ? > > There are 2 complete systems, and a bunch of spare parts/boards. There isn't anything I specifically want to know, I was just curious what it was and you answered that nicely, thank you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 13 20:09:44 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:09:44 -0700 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers In-Reply-To: References: <200709131726.37453.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 4:40 PM -0500 9/13/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 9/13/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> On Thursday 13 September 2007 01:42, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> > After putting it off for many, many years, I've decided to break down >> > and do it. I'm in the market for a device to read and program >> > EPROM's such as would be found in DEC or Commodore 64 hardware. >> >> The c64 never used EPROMs, only masked ROMs. Though there were one or two >> aftermarket devices that would use 'em, typically with an adapter. > >Perhaps not _in_ the C-64, but there were plenty of cartridges and >peripherals that used EPROMs - typically the 2732 or 2764. I'm planning on building an adapter to allow replacing the Kernal ROM with a EPROM with three different ROM images on it. The hardest thing in doing this looks to be getting the EPROM burned. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Sep 13 21:00:12 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:00:12 -0400 Subject: FYI: good Docu on tonight-PBS: Dayton Codebreakers Message-ID: <46E9EB2C.90604@comcast.net> FYI: good Docu on tonight- PBS: Dayton Codebreakers National Cash Register Co. conducts secret experiments to break the Enigma Code; engineer Joseph R. Desch helps end World War II. =Dan -- [ Never put off till tomorrow, What you can do the day after tomorrow ] [ Pittsburgh ---- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 13 21:01:00 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:01:00 -0700 Subject: EPROM programmer/readers In-Reply-To: References: <200709131726.37453.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi I just saw a UniPak on ebay. This along with the 29A or B that another mentioned will program most any eprom you need as well as most PROMs. Dwight > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:09:44 -0700> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> From: healyzh at aracnet.com> Subject: Re: EPROM programmer/readers> > At 4:40 PM -0500 9/13/07, Ethan Dicks wrote:> >On 9/13/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote:> >> On Thursday 13 September 2007 01:42, Zane H. Healy wrote:> >> > After putting it off for many, many years, I've decided to break down> >> > and do it. I'm in the market for a device to read and program> >> > EPROM's such as would be found in DEC or Commodore 64 hardware.> >>> >> The c64 never used EPROMs, only masked ROMs. Though there were one or two> >> aftermarket devices that would use 'em, typically with an adapter.> >> >Perhaps not _in_ the C-64, but there were plenty of cartridges and> >peripherals that used EPROMs - typically the 2732 or 2764.> > I'm planning on building an adapter to allow replacing the Kernal ROM > with a EPROM with three different ROM images on it. The hardest > thing in doing this looks to be getting the EPROM burned.> > > Zane> > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | _________________________________________________________________ Can you find the hidden words?? Take a break and play Seekadoo! http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 13 21:17:15 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:17:15 -0400 Subject: Recent acquisitions Message-ID: <004401c7f675$5f5ebfc0$eb4df945@evan> Some ultra-rare laptops I picked up recently: - Teleram T-3000 with external disk drive and manual (1982) - MicroOffice RoadRunner (1982) - Dulmont Magnum with manual (1983) What'd I spend on these? Don't ask, or my bank account might revolt against me. :) My collection of early laptops now includes, but is not limited to: 1982: - Grid Compass 1101 - Teleram T-3000 - MicroOffice RoadRunner - Epson HX-20 - Grundy NewBrain model AD 1983: - Kyocera Kyotronic KC-85 - Gavilan (eponymous.) - Dulmont Magnum - Sharp PC-5000 I'm currently borrowing a Casio FP-200 (1982) from a friend, and I own a Convergent Workslate (1982/3), but I can't decide if those are large handhelds or small laptops. It is a dilemma! Still looking to acquire a Sord IS-11 and a Xerox 1800 "Sunrise". From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 13 22:08:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:08:22 -0600 Subject: Recent acquisitions In-Reply-To: <004401c7f675$5f5ebfc0$eb4df945@evan> References: <004401c7f675$5f5ebfc0$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <46E9FB26.8020604@jetnet.ab.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Some ultra-rare laptops I picked up recently: > - Teleram T-3000 with external disk drive and manual (1982) > - MicroOffice RoadRunner (1982) > - Dulmont Magnum with manual (1983) > > What'd I spend on these? Don't ask, or my bank account might revolt > against me. :) > > My collection of early laptops now includes, but is not limited to: > > 1982: > - Grid Compass 1101 > - Teleram T-3000 > - MicroOffice RoadRunner > - Epson HX-20 > - Grundy NewBrain model AD > > 1983: > - Kyocera Kyotronic KC-85 > - Gavilan (eponymous.) > - Dulmont Magnum > - Sharp PC-5000 > > I'm currently borrowing a Casio FP-200 (1982) from a friend, and I own a > Convergent Workslate (1982/3), but I can't decide if those are large > handhelds or small laptops. It is a dilemma! > > Still looking to acquire a Sord IS-11 and a Xerox 1800 "Sunrise". Might as well add a Husky Hunter to your hand-held wish list too. :) Ben alias Woodelf From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 13 22:13:10 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:13:10 -0400 Subject: Recent acquisitions In-Reply-To: <46E9FB26.8020604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004c01c7f67d$2f735160$eb4df945@evan> >>> Might as well add a Husky Hunter to your hand-held wish list too. :) That's another machine of which I'm undecided: laptop or handheld? And is it REALLY from '81/'82? Sellam got one recently and he has serious doubts. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 14 00:26:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:26:19 -0600 Subject: Recent acquisitions In-Reply-To: <004c01c7f67d$2f735160$eb4df945@evan> References: <004c01c7f67d$2f735160$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <46EA1B7B.6050501@jetnet.ab.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> Might as well add a Husky Hunter to your hand-held wish list too. :) > > That's another machine of which I'm undecided: laptop or handheld? And > is it REALLY from '81/'82? Sellam got one recently and he has serious > doubts. I had to search the internet to find it. Where I remember it from was a review in BYTE. The web page I found said the second version was about 1983. I guess the prototype-orginal would be in the 81/82 range. Ben alias woodelf From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Thu Sep 13 03:03:04 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:03:04 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <008d01c7f59d$509681e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <46E5D1B7.4080805@yahoo.co.uk> <008d01c7f59d$509681e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200709130903.04782.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Thursday 13 September 2007 01:30:39 Ensor wrote: > I first came across this myself in the mid-90s. I'd picked up a copy of > "Elektor" for the first time in almost 10 years and was surprised that they > didn't provide any listings of any form for the projects based around PICs, > you had to send away for pre-programmed parts. That's about when I remember seeing it happen; also with an article in (possibly) PE&EE about building a Z80-based SBC that ran Forth. These days when you can build a simple PIC or ATMEL programmer from a couple of components, or buy an EPROM programmer off eBay for about a tenner, there's not really an excuse. Ob. on-topic: does anyone remember the Forth SBC article I was talking about, and does a copy of it exist online anywhere? Gordon From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Thu Sep 13 03:06:39 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:06:39 +0100 Subject: Zen and the art of RL02 maintainance In-Reply-To: <46E78499.3060406@msu.edu> References: <46E78499.3060406@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200709130906.39276.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 07:18:01 Josh Dersch wrote: > complete a scavenger hunt...) but I'm wondering what I should check out > on this machine before I power it on & (eventually) start using it... I cleaned the case exterior (really grubby), and hoovered the inside where the disk pack goes, cleaned off the air filter and air ducts, and checked that the foam rubber bit wasn't all crumbly (it wasn't). Gordon. From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu Sep 13 06:19:47 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 05:19:47 -0600 Subject: When it rains, it pours In-Reply-To: <46E8605D.6080705@bitsavers.org> References: <200709122111.OAA05767@mist.magic.com> <46E8605D.6080705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <150647C3-8707-4BC0-AF20-E21EBCBC4993@comcast.net> On Sep 12, 2007, at 3:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > William's load came in on Monday, now these just arrived. I like your kind of rain! Paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 13 06:42:43 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:42:43 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JOB00AJU1V1AE21@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:06:42 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >I worked at DEC in '82 at the UK HQ (Decpark) >I'm sure we had more than 50 nodes in the UK alone. >The SET HOST list went on forever. > >Rod Smallwood I used to have the netmap for DECnet/DEC for around '82 and it was by all accounts there at DEC the largest network on the planet but the total node count wasn't that high. The second largest was a DEC custormer Dupont at around 50 nodes. A large portion were phase III nodes. Huge contrast to 1988ish when people started subnetting DECnet as the phase IV address scheme had run out of space. Allison From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Sep 13 11:50:46 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:50:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <01C7F4F0.C74EB120@MSE_D03> <200709121503.29524.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709121548.21949.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6707.217.225.95.103.1189702246.squirrel@217.225.95.103> Ethan Dicks said: > On 9/12/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> On Wednesday 12 September 2007 15:38, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > > > Just a passive cable? Do you have any special notes, or was it >> just >> > > > SAVE "FOO", 1 and LOAD "FOO", 1? >> > > >> > > I was wondering if you'd want the ",1" in there or not myself. >> > >> > In this case, the '1' is to designate cassette drive 1 (PETs have two, >> > C-64s have one). It's probably optional, but I included it out of >> > habit. >> >> Actually I never did all that much with cassette on any c= stuff (though >> I do >> have one), and never thought about there being two of them attached to >> one >> machine... > > The C-64 does not have a device at address 2, IIRC. Nebbich. OPEN 1,2,0,CHR$(10+0+128)+CHR$(0+0+224) would open the serial line at the user port with 2400Bd, 8 bit, 2 stopbits, 3wire handshake, full duplex, 7bit-ASCII, for instance. The first byte is: bit 3-0: 0=userbaudrate, 1=50, 2=75, 3=110, 4=134.5, 5=150, 6=300, 7=600, 8=1200, 9=1800, 10=2400, 11=(3600), 12=(4800), 13=(7200), 14=(9600), 15=(19200) with the () not implemented bit 6-5 is bitsize: 0=8bits, 1=7bits, 2=6bits, 3=5bits bit 7 is stopbits: 0=1bits,1=2bits The second byte is: bit 0: 0=3-wire-handshake, 1=x-wire-handshake (where 3 wire is CTS/DSR, x-wire is Modem) bit 4: 0=full duplex, 1=half duplex bit 7-5: xx0=no parity, 001=odd parity, 011=even parity,101=bit8 allways 1, 111=bit8 always 0 After that, read and write works normally with GET# and PRINT#, however slow as usual with BASIC. -- Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 13 14:10:10 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:10:10 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JOB008DCMKO6MH7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:15:21 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 13 Sep 2007 at 13:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I suppose I've always seen it as "electronically connected computers" or >> somesuch - i.e. it doesn't imply anything about what data is shared (or how), >> just that something *can* be transferred without sneakernetting information >> around. > >So my use of the acoustic-coupled modem out of a TI Silent 700 on my >MITS Altair 8800 to a CDC 6600 over phone lines was networking in >1976? I did my source prep and assembly on the mainframe and just >downloaded my programs to run them. Of course, I had to key in the >basic terminal/download code via the front panel switches, but that >wasn't a big deal. > >As far as coupling two computers together--well, that's VERY old. >Goes back to the 1950's at least and probably is older than that. At that time it was a loose term. Alohanet was one of the first that really solidified the term and application. Generally there was/are two basic classes host and client or Peer to Peer. The Altair<>CDC was more like the first than second. When I was doing it I had been attempting to have facilities not unlike VMS/DECnet. The goal was from any one machine I could connect, manage and use files from another machine and the files could exist on any enabled machine (that had the requested resource). The goal I achieved was a diskless machine could boot from one, use files from another and the actual terminal was connected to a third, plus print to a fourth machine that had the printer (and could buffer the transfer). The basic scheme was actually simple but getting CSMA/CD between my ears the hard part. It was node to node (addressed) conectivity with systems added to the net able to broadcast it's presence. The only thing was it was all and only CP/M. Allison From james at vartek-corp.com Thu Sep 13 23:19:03 2007 From: james at vartek-corp.com (james shaker) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:19:03 -0600 Subject: Hal Hardenbergh Message-ID: <20070914041703.M12079@www.vartek-corp.com> Hello, I saw an old post by you where you were looking for Hal Hardenbergh. Did you ever find anything out? My name is James Shaker. I worked for him for about 5 years during the DTACK Grounded era. James -- Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Sep 14 06:16:45 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:16:45 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [Electronics_101] On this day In-Reply-To: <46E96207.31454.527932D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709131753.03449.rtellason@verizon.net> <46E96207.31454.527932D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709141216.45911.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 14 September 2007 00:15:03 Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Sep 2007 at 17:53, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Though this would be interesting. Just one of the large boxes in the > > picture, hold almost as much as a DVD does today. Just show how far we > > have come. > > Try about 3 3.5 DSHD floppies. A DVD is orders of magnitude larger. > > It seems to me that Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry once had > a model of one whose operation could be observed (i.e. much of the > box "skins" were stripped away so you could observe the head moving > up and down the stack. I often wonder about the process that lead to the design of the drive. I can picture a couple of engineers sitting mulling over the problem over a few beers, trying to get more capacity out of their disks. One gets up to go and get a round in, and decides to go stick something on the jukebox... Gordon From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 07:30:17 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:30:17 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <1189723138.31084.6.camel@elric> References: <1189723138.31084.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <575131af0709140530m294a5642wa60aca3fb0f38b99@mail.gmail.com> On 13/09/2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > It still doesn't excuse having a physically-but-not-functionally > interchangeable connector for PS/2 mice and keyboards, though. That is > where USB has a big win. Absolutely 100% concur. That was criminally stupid. USB is great for basic low-bandwidth I/O devices. Simple, robust and does the job. For more complex devices - scanners, printers, all-in-one devices and so on - I've had a few problems. For high-performance storage peripherals - disk drives, optical drives etc. - I don't much like it and prefer Firewire. USB2 and the wretched marketing fiasco of "USB full speed" versus "USB high speed" and so on has been a disaster. Because marketdroids (who should all, /pace/ Bill Hicks, be shot) complained that they didn't want their devices labelled "slow" or USB1 to equate to "slow"), instead of a nice clear distinction - USB2 = fast, USB1 = slow - we have a mess of confusing phrases instead. Horrible. And whereas it's convenient that USB1 and USB2 use the same cables, there should be mandatory labelling of which standards are supported, because not all USB1 cables, designed for 12Mb/s, can handle the 480Mb/s of USB2. All USB2 cables, hubs and devices should say, clearly and distinctly, that they are USB2. They don't. I've also, horrifyingly, seen at least 1 USB2 external disk case that used an A-connector (the computer end) for /both/ ends of its cable, which means that it included an A-to-A cable, which is prohibited. This would allow a naive user (i.e. most of them) to connect 2 PCs back to back over the cable, resulting in an expensive bang and release of magic smoke. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 14 07:50:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:50:51 -0500 Subject: Wang 300 Calc References: <1189723138.31084.6.camel@elric> <575131af0709140530m294a5642wa60aca3fb0f38b99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01c7f6cd$e1dc7ac0$6400a8c0@BILLING> I fail to see what USB2/PS2 discussion (fascinating though it may be) has to do with classic computers, or the Wang 300 calculator for that matter. Jay From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 08:05:30 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:05:30 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0709121048o176bb4ddif8aef6c3a7a19b50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709140605r39d5d890rd7447917d0e60960@mail.gmail.com> On 13/09/2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > But there were other cheapo serial networks back then: Sinclair > > bundled networking in the ZX Interface 1 for the Spectrum, which was, > > The SInclair netowrk, at least from what I've read in the QL service > manual/schematics, was similar in consept to the serial port netowrks > mentioned here. There was a 2 wirte bus (signal and ground) linking all > machines, terminated by ressitors at eash end [1] All the machines > monitored the siagnal wire, any machine could drive it (and by monitoring > while it was driving it, it detected collisions). > > The termination resistors were built into all the machines, connected up > using the 'break contacts' of the 3,5mm jack sockets (OK 'mini phone > socket' across the Pond'. You connected a cable from one machine to the > next, and the empty sockets on the 2 'end' amchines automatically > connected the resistors to the network. Thanks for that! Most informative. > > I think, compatible with the networking of the later Sinclair QL. Also > > there was Acorn's Econet, of course. > > > > I think Econet saw a *lot* of use tho' I've never seen a system > > Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems', > Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron > mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't > available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't > have persisted with it. It was an optional extra on the Archimedes range - the case cutouts were there but you needs a small additional circuit board that plugged onto the motherboard and carried the controller logic and ports. For the RISC PC, I don't know. I imagine so. Possibly as a podule or the same sort of thing as the older Archies? > > outside of a show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in > > schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile. > > I've never seen it used. [Nod] ISTR I rigged up a test system once, just to try it, between my 48K & 128K Speccies. Only one I ever saw. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 08:09:12 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:09:12 +0100 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E9C372.2030709@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46E9C372.2030709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0709140609m5148a992u52618cfb7a059da3@mail.gmail.com> On 14/09/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > What happened with the QL machines (and, by extension, the ICL OPD)? Did they > also feature the same network ability? I just wonder if it was a little more > widespread there if so, even if it wasn't popular with the Z80-based machines. I don't know about the 3rd party official QL compatibles - the Merlin Tonto, ICL OnePerDesk and so on. The Sinclair version offered it. AFAIK most of the later 3rd party clones - Thor, Aurora and so on - dropped the networking. The few people I knew who had QLs were, ah, independent minded sorts who I suspect saw little point in /any/ kind of networking. Generally their sleek back "32-bit" multitasking machine was their sole computer and they looked down on pretty much everyone else, from Spectrum users to SUN or VAX ones. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 08:53:22 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 06:53:22 -0700 Subject: Need a sanity check In-Reply-To: <46E87BD3.16468.1A4612A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46E87BD3.16468.1A4612A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90709140653o75fd8421w77a8ba7ed5b5de24@mail.gmail.com> On 9/12/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm playing with a Computer Logics PCTD-16 Pertec tape drive > interface board and my Fujitsu M2444AC drive. I can perform tape > motion commands just fine, but data commands begin and do not seem to > complete. I've checked that IDBY (J2 38 or W) comes ready at the end > of a read or write, so my next guess is that I've got the cable wire > wrong somewhow. My reference has this pin connected to pin 24 on the > DC62 connector to the controller. > > Here's what I'm using: > > http://www.sydex.com/overcbl.html > > Have I missed something? Can anyone double-check this? > > Thanks, > Chuck > I have that exact combination (Computer Logics PCTD-16 Pertec tape drive ISA bus interface board and Fujitsu M2444AC 9-track drive) working. I wrote an MS-DOS application to use it to write a 2.11BSD install tape for my 11/73. I acquired my setup in a working configuration and didn't build the interface cable myself. I don't have docs for the cable pinout, but I could check the cable I have with a meter when I get a chance. -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 14 11:41:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:41:33 -0700 Subject: Need a sanity check In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90709140653o75fd8421w77a8ba7ed5b5de24@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E87BD3.16468.1A4612A@cclist.sydex.com>, <1e1fc3e90709140653o75fd8421w77a8ba7ed5b5de24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EA574D.19681.8E5AD08@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2007 at 6:53, Glen Slick wrote: > I acquired my setup in a working configuration and didn't build the > interface cable myself. I don't have docs for the cable pinout, but I > could check the cable I have with a meter when I get a chance. I'd appreciate it, Glen. Only the handshaking lines (IFBY, IDBY) need be buzzed out, I think. The tape motion commands seem to work just fine, but reading or writing moves the tape without the driver returning (i.e. stays busy). I built my cable from an Overland description, so I'm not completely sure that it's correct. Once I know that the cable wiring is right, I can tackle the card to see what's going on there. Thanks much, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 14 11:49:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:49:29 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [Electronics_101] On this day In-Reply-To: <200709141216.45911.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200709131753.03449.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E96207.31454.527932D@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709141216.45911.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <46EA5929.29107.8ECEE3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2007 at 12:16, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I often wonder about the process that lead to the design of the drive. I can > picture a couple of engineers sitting mulling over the problem over a few > beers, trying to get more capacity out of their disks. One gets up to go and > get a round in, and decides to go stick something on the jukebox... Or even the orientation of the disk stack. Ramac used a vertical axis of rotation, but the old Bryant disks were horizontal. The same distinction appears with drums--some horizontal, some vertical. For the mechanical engineering types out there: are there distinct advantages of one over the other? In particular, I recall the big Univac Fastrand horizontal drums ran into big problems when subjected to vibration from heavy vehicle traffic. Cheers, Chuck From allanh-cctalk2 at kallisti.com Fri Sep 14 12:27:57 2007 From: allanh-cctalk2 at kallisti.com (Allan Hessenflow) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:27:57 -0700 Subject: Need a sanity check In-Reply-To: <200709141701.l8EH0rIE089087@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709141701.l8EH0rIE089087@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070914172757.GA26168@kallisti.com> On 14 Sep 2007 at 9:41, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd appreciate it, Glen. Only the handshaking lines (IFBY, IDBY) > need be buzzed out, I think. The tape motion commands seem to work > just fine, but reading or writing moves the tape without the driver > returning (i.e. stays busy). I built my cable from an Overland > description, so I'm not completely sure that it's correct. I buzzed out my Overland cable some time ago, and just checked the handshake lines above against the reference you used. They match. For reference, my cable wiring is at: http://www.kallisti.com/~allanh/misc/overlandperteccable.html allan -- Allan N. Hessenflow allanh at kallisti.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 14 12:58:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:58:09 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [Electronics_101] On this day In-Reply-To: <200709141216.45911.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200709131753.03449.rtellason@verizon.net> <46E96207.31454.527932D@cclist.sydex.com> <200709141216.45911.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <46EACBB1.40008@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I often wonder about the process that lead to the design of the drive. I can > picture a couple of engineers sitting mulling over the problem over a few > beers, trying to get more capacity out of their disks. One gets up to go and > get a round in, and decides to go stick something on the jukebox... Our drive is faster, more powerfull and vinyl ... Look at those 45's spin. > Gordon Well it was after a few beers ... :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 14:26:46 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM Question Message-ID: <200709141926.l8EJQk87032112@onyx.spiritone.com> I've been trying to google up an answer, but have had no luck. What is the difference between a 27256 and a 27C256 EPROM? Can a 27C256 EPROM be substituted for a 27256? Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 14:30:40 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <200709141926.l8EJQk87032112@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 14, 2007 12:26:46 PM Message-ID: <200709141930.l8EJUeRY032208@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I've been trying to google up an answer, but have had no luck. What is the > difference between a 27256 and a 27C256 EPROM? Can a 27C256 EPROM be > substituted for a 27256? > > Zane > It never fails... 27256 = NMOS 27C256 = CMOS A 27C256 can be substituted for a 27256, but it isn't advisable to go the other way as NMOS uses more power. Zane From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 14 14:57:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:57:47 -0600 Subject: 4 VAX workstations (no HDs) (St. Louis, MO) Message-ID: 3 VAX 4000-100A 1 VAX 4000-60 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 14 15:02:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:02:03 -0600 Subject: 21" CRTs (St. Louis, MO) Message-ID: Big piles of 'em. For all of you who were saying how you much prefer CRTs, this might be worth pooling up and splitting a lot. These will probably be cheap to purchase, but $$ to ship. (37) Asstd 21" Computer Monitors (14) Dell P1130 21" Computer Monitors (27) Dell P1130 21" Computer Monitors (65) Asstd 21" Computer Monitors -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 14 15:00:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:00:09 +0100 Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <200709141930.l8EJUeRY032208@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200709141930.l8EJUeRY032208@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <46EAE849.9090700@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I've been trying to google up an answer, but have had no luck. What is the >> difference between a 27256 and a 27C256 EPROM? Can a 27C256 EPROM be >> substituted for a 27256? >> >> Zane >> > > It never fails... :-) On a related note, is there such a thing as a homebrewed cross-reference showing which EPROMS can be treated as the 'same' from a programming point of view? For instance, my programmer knows nothing of Mitsubishi EPROMs, but does acknowledge many other manufacturers. I had no luck earlier trying to program a Mitsubishi 27218 part as an AMD EPROM of equivalent size, but it worked fine by telling the programmer that it was an Intel 27128 - presumably the timings vary slightly between manufacturers, but it's often possible to find something that's "close enough". (If anyone else has an old Elan universe-series EPROM / PAL programmer, shout. I'd be interested to know if you have programming cartridges that are different to mine) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 14:41:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:41:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709130903.04782.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Sep 13, 7 09:03:04 am Message-ID: > > On Thursday 13 September 2007 01:30:39 Ensor wrote: > > > I first came across this myself in the mid-90s. I'd picked up a copy of > > "Elektor" for the first time in almost 10 years and was surprised that they > > didn't provide any listings of any form for the projects based around PICs, > > you had to send away for pre-programmed parts. > > That's about when I remember seeing it happen; also with an article in > (possibly) PE&EE about building a Z80-based SBC that ran Forth. Actually, Elektor have been rather better about this recently, and in a lot of cases the _source_ code for the microcontroller firmware is available as a free download from their web site. Alas, in some cases (often for the projects I am most interested in :-(), this is not the case, often becasue the author gets a royalty from each pre-programmed chip sold. > > These days when you can build a simple PIC or ATMEL programmer from a couple > of components, or buy an EPROM programmer off eBay for about a tenner, > there's not really an excuse. I suspect the reason (not an excuse...) was that they made money selling pre-programmed chips. Certainly when you boughht the pre-programmed chip, it came copy-protected. > > Ob. on-topic: does anyone remember the Forth SBC article I was talking about, > and does a copy of it exist online anywhere? No, and as a Forth (and stack based languages in general) lover, I would be interested. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 14:49:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:49:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Zen and the art of RL02 maintainance In-Reply-To: <200709131816.14839.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Sep 13, 7 06:16:14 pm Message-ID: > > On Thursday 13 September 2007, J Blaser wrote: > > Lastly, be cautious around the head actuator. The heads and the > > spindle (plate) are carefully aligned, and I wouldn't remove or > > adjust either of these. Unless, that is, you have the printsets and > > proper tools (which I don't). > > Actually, the RL02/RL01 is an embedded servo drive, so "head alignment" > generally isn't critical, at least like it is with the RK0n drives. There is no 'alignment' between the heads and any other part of the drive (e.g . the spindle), but there is an adjustment between the 2 heads. I think it's possible (although quite difficult...) to get the 2 heads so far out of alignement with each other than they lock to different cylinders when you switch sides (the head will lock to the nearest odd or even cylinder demending on whether it should be on an odd or even one). There is alos an alignment procedure in the service manual, but that's to reduce access time when switching sides (if the heads are out of relative alignemt, the head carriage has to move further when you switch sides, so it takes longer for the drive to become ready after such a switch). It's quite easy to do, you don't need a special alignment pack, just any RL02 pack, a reasonable 'scope, and a few clip leads. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 15:16:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:16:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <575131af0709140605r39d5d890rd7447917d0e60960@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 14, 7 02:05:30 pm Message-ID: > > Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems'= > , > > Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron > > mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't > > available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't > > have persisted with it. > > It was an optional extra on the Archimedes range - the case cutouts > were there but you needs a small additional circuit board that plugged > onto the motherboard and carried the controller logic and ports. It was optional (rather than standard) on almost all Acorn machines. The only one I know to have had it as standard was the ACW. For the 'System' machines, the Econet interface was not suprisingly an Eurocard you put in a spare slot of the cardcage. For the Atom, there was a long, thin PCB that plugged onto the solder side (top) of the main PCB. I can't rememebr if the header plug for this to fit onto was standard on all Atoms, or whehter you soldered it in when adding the Econet upgrate. Since the Atom expansin bus was the same as the System bus, you could also use the System Eurocard with the Atom (and I hace an Atom where this has been done) Beebs (and B+'s?) had the main PCB laid out fo the econet circuitry, but no compoennts were fitted. The upgrade was a 'bag of bits' that you soldered to the main PCB. Some early 'issues' of the BBC mainboard could take the Econet clock generator circuit too. The Master and Archimedes machines took a little plug-in PCB containing econet circuit. There were at least 2 versions of this one had hardware collision detection, the other didn't. The same module is used, IIRC, in the Filkestore systems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 14:53:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:53:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Zen and the art of RL02 maintainance In-Reply-To: <1189722642.46e9ba1302e38@www.jblaser.org> from "J Blaser" at Sep 13, 7 04:30:43 pm Message-ID: > I was thinking more in terms of the possibility of getting the > horizontal forward/backward 'tilt' a little bit off, that is, > when the heads are on the outer tracks versus when the heads > are extended to the inner tracks, is the flying height the same? In all DEC hard drives (I think it's 'all'), the flying height is determined between the balance between the aerodynamic lift (forcing the head odf the platter) and the head mounting spring (forcing the head onto the platter). It's not set by having the heads a fixed distance above the disk and trying to ensure the positioner motion is exactly parallel to the disk. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 15:01:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:01:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46E9C372.2030709@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 14, 7 00:10:42 am Message-ID: > There was also the Ecolink board made by Acorn - a full-length ISA card for an > x86 PC, containing a 6502, RAM, and the familiar 68B54 ADLC chip. I don't Now you mentione it, I rememebr it. They turn up on E-bay from time to time and always sell for a very high price (more than I would pay for one...) Acorn also made some specific econet hardware -- the Filestores (6502 + Econst module + drives + hard idsk interface), the Bridge (6502 + 2 econet interfaces, basically), and for real enthusiasts the 'test box' (which basically pvided a clock source and allowed you to simulate a typical lossy econet cable) > think Acorn ever sold many - Acorn and x86 PC users just tended to move in > different circles, so there wasn't much call for a crossover. > > Torch also used Econet ("TorchNet") on their systems which used the BBC micro > system board as the I/O processor, of course. Plus I recently found out that > SJ Research released an Econet board for the RML 380Z - something of a > surprise given how RML used to push their own co-ax network technology. Given that Both BBC micros and RRML380Z were commonly found in UK schools, I am not suprised that a 3rd party company made a product to allow them both to sit on the same network. I would have been a lot more suprised if RML had made the board themselves. > >> outside of a show stand. I don't think enough Sinclairs got used in > >> schools to make the Sinclair network worthwhile. > > What happened with the QL machines (and, by extension, the ICL OPD)? Did they > also feature the same network ability? I just wonder if it was a little more Certainly the QL has the network hardware built-in. I believe it was compatible with the Spectrum version, and that QLs and Sprctrums could sit on the same network. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 15:09:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:09:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709140530m294a5642wa60aca3fb0f38b99@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 14, 7 01:30:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 13/09/2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > It still doesn't excuse having a physically-but-not-functionally > > interchangeable connector for PS/2 mice and keyboards, though. That is > > where USB has a big win. > > Absolutely 100% concur. That was criminally stupid. IIRC, the PS/2 mouse interface and PS/2 keyboard interface are very similar. Both are TTL level interfaces with clock and data lines, both have 4 signals on the connector (+5V, ground, clock, data), and the data transfer protocol is much the same. IIRC, the pin assignemts of the 2 interfaces is the same too, and it's possible to make a device where you can plug the mouse and keyboard into either connector, and detect what sort of device is plugged into a given socket. The fact that most PCs didn't let you do that is not the fault of the interface. So why not use the same connector for the 2 interfaces? -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 14 16:13:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:13:34 +0100 Subject: Econet (Was: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46EAF97E.6010504@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Econet was available on just about all the Acorn computers -- 'Systems'= >> , >>> Atom, BBC micro, Electron (? the Advanced User Guide for the Electron >>> mentions it), ACW, Archimedes. I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't >>> available on the RiscPC too. Presumably it was used, or Acorn wouldn't >>> have persisted with it. >> It was an optional extra on the Archimedes range - the case cutouts >> were there but you needs a small additional circuit board that plugged >> onto the motherboard and carried the controller logic and ports. > > It was optional (rather than standard) on almost all Acorn machines. The > only one I know to have had it as standard was the ACW. Possibly it was standard on the whole ABC range. It's also fitted on my 310 machines (80286 copro) but a sample of one is hardly telling :-) I've never seen a 1xx (Z80 copro) series machine (well, one that had been gutted, so that doesn't help!) > For the 'System' machines, the Econet interface was not suprisingly an > Eurocard you put in a spare slot of the cardcage. I've got two variants here (both p/n 200,024) - the earlier one has additional 4017 and LS74 ICs not present on the issue 2 board. Not sure if that was just the collision detection circuitry and they removed it on the later board, or if it provided some other function... > For the Atom, there was a long, thin PCB that plugged onto the solder > side (top) of the main PCB. I can't rememebr if the header plug for this > to fit onto was standard on all Atoms, or whehter you soldered it in when > adding the Econet upgrate. I just checked my Atoms, as they're all out of storage so I can assemble some good machines from all the odds and ends. Four machines have the header fitted, one doesn't (but looks like it did once and someone's removed it), whilst the sixth shows no sign of it ever being fitted. I checked the technical manual - that header's not listed in the kit of parts, and the text just says it's not required on the minimum configuration machine. So it sounds like it wasn't standard on the kit-built machines at least, but possibly was on the factory systems (my machine which shows no signs of ever having had it looks to have been a home-build, judging by the soldering) > Beebs (and B+'s?) had the main PCB laid out fo the econet circuitry, but > no compoennts were fitted. The upgrade was a 'bag of bits' that you > soldered to the main PCB. It's funny that the technical spec for the model A/B specifies sockets for all the optional bits, *apart* from Econet; I'm not sure if something can be read into that about the BBC's expected take up of the network ability. > The Master and Archimedes machines took a little plug-in PCB containing > econet circuit. There were at least 2 versions of this one had hardware > collision detection, the other didn't. I found someone's web page the other day listing various econet modules - they'd found about 8 different ones (not all Acorn), although I think they're all basically the same two circuits (one with collision detection, one without) > The same module is used, IIRC, in the Filkestore systems. Quite possibly... I never did take a look inside one. I just had a look at my photos of the Communicator (Acorn, not Torch) and even that has sockets for one of the modules. Possibly that means their network computer was the only system which didn't have an easy path to Econet ability. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 16:29:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:29:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <200709141926.l8EJQk87032112@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 14, 7 12:26:46 pm Message-ID: > > I've been trying to google up an answer, but have had no luck. What is the > difference between a 27256 and a 27C256 EPROM? Can a 27C256 EPROM be > substituted for a 27256? The 27C256 is CMOS, the 27256 is NMOS. The former has a lower power consumptiom than the latter, and there may be differnces in the access times, but they're pretty similar devices. I would be suprised if there was a circuit hat would work with the latter but not the former. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 16:43:31 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:43:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Econet (Was: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever) In-Reply-To: <46EAF97E.6010504@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 14, 7 10:13:34 pm Message-ID: > > It was optional (rather than standard) on almost all Acorn machines. The > > only one I know to have had it as standard was the ACW. > > Possibly it was standard on the whole ABC range. It's also fitted on my 310 Quite likely. [...] > > For the 'System' machines, the Econet interface was not suprisingly an > > Eurocard you put in a spare slot of the cardcage. > > I've got two variants here (both p/n 200,024) - the earlier one has > additional 4017 and LS74 ICs not present on the issue 2 board. Not sure if > that was just the collision detection circuitry and they removed it on the > later board, or if it provided some other function... It doesn't sound like collision detection, which used an analouge comparator chip (LM319 IIRC). The 4017 is a devide-by-10 ring counter, the '74 is, of course, a dual D-type flip-flop. It's either something to do with sorthing out bus timing (maybe early 6854s had some oddity here), or a way of sourcing the econect clock from that PCB. [...] > > Beebs (and B+'s?) had the main PCB laid out fo the econet circuitry, but > > no compoennts were fitted. The upgrade was a 'bag of bits' that you > > soldered to the main PCB. > > It's funny that the technical spec for the model A/B specifies sockets for all > the optional bits, *apart* from Econet; I'm not sure if something can be read This has the interesting side-effect that a Model A that's been upgraded to a Model B has rather more stuff in sockets than a Model B that started out as such. For example half of the RAM is socketed on the former machine. I still wonder if it was really worthwhile to miss out the 1MHz bus buffers on a Model A and fit sockets in place of them. I can't believe the latter were much cheaper than a '244 and '245 :-) > into that about the BBC's expected take up of the network ability. Or was it because there were many passive components to solder in anyway? Did any of the other upgrads involve anything other than ICs? > > The same module is used, IIRC, in the Filkestore systems. > > Quite possibly... I never did take a look inside one. I just had a look at my You should have asked when you visited me. I have a Filestore (whatever the origianl version with the '2MHz bus connector' on the back is called), I would have been happy to take the case off for you... One day I'll get round to getting it going. It's missing the floppy drives -- I have a couple that will work, but theyre ex-Archimedes machines and are therefore lacking ffront panels and eject buttons, and it's misisng the front flap, which of course triggers a reflective opto-switch. I am sure I can fiddle soemthing to do that, though. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 17:33:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070914153226.W55546@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, the PS/2 mouse interface and PS/2 keyboard interface are very > similar. Both are TTL level interfaces with clock and data lines, both > have 4 signals on the connector (+5V, ground, clock, data), and the data > transfer protocol is much the same. > So why not use the same connector for the 2 interfaces? Why, other than excessive stinginess did they switch to that, instead of the REAL 5 pin DIN that even I can solder? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 18:13:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <46EAE849.9090700@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <755204.11656.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > On a related note, is there such a thing as a > homebrewed cross-reference > showing which EPROMS can be treated as the 'same' > from a programming point of > view? Isn't the main issue when programming these things the applied voltage? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 14 18:26:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:26:48 -0700 Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <755204.11656.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46EAE849.9090700@yahoo.co.uk>, <755204.11656.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46EAB648.30367.A58B16F@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2007 at 16:13, Chris M wrote: > Isn't the main issue when programming these things > the applied voltage? Not entirely--particularly in the 128Kbit and under categories, the programming algorithm could vary significantly from vendor to vendor. I suppose that if one programmed an EPROM slowly enough, one might be able to do it in an algorithm-independent manner, however. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 18:49:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <46EAB648.30367.A58B16F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <93165.66706.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Sep 2007 at 16:13, Chris M wrote: > > > Isn't the main issue when programming these > things > > the applied voltage? > > Not entirely--particularly in the 128Kbit and under > categories, the > programming algorithm could vary significantly from > vendor to vendor. > I suppose that if one programmed an EPROM slowly > enough, one might > be able to do it in an algorithm-independent manner, > however. I'm not familiar with algorithmic steps in eprom programming. Could this roughly be likened to a protocol like those used in serial communications (if I'm correct, I'll assume they'd be much simpler). On the other hand does the programming algorithm translate to the *timing* issues that were mentioned in a previous post? Or are they related to rise-and-fall times and that such issues. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 14 19:01:14 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:01:14 -0400 Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <93165.66706.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709150001.l8F01GsI072603@billy.ezwind.net> Many years ago I hacked a driver to program 27xx's using a SD systems S100 programming card. If memory serves me correct the the I was using want a 100ms pulse to each address 100 times to build up the bits with out over heating the gate. It has been over 30 years since did it. There were several voltages and duty cycles that were prefered by different chips, but that info was stored in what now are mostly dead brain cells. Now I will have to go look for the SD card, I am sure it is still in storage in one of the boxes .... later The other Bob On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:49:21 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: >--- Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 14 Sep 2007 at 16:13, Chris M wrote: >> >> > Isn't the main issue when programming these >> things >> > the applied voltage? >> >> Not entirely--particularly in the 128Kbit and under >> categories, the >> programming algorithm could vary significantly from >> vendor to vendor. >> I suppose that if one programmed an EPROM slowly >> enough, one might >> be able to do it in an algorithm-independent manner, >> however. > I'm not familiar with algorithmic steps in eprom >programming. Could this roughly be likened to a >protocol like those used in serial communications (if >I'm correct, I'll assume they'd be much simpler). > On the other hand does the programming algorithm >translate to the *timing* issues that were mentioned >in a previous post? Or are they related to >rise-and-fall times and that such issues. > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Need a vacation? Get great deals >to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. >http://travel.yahoo.com/ From redodd at comcast.net Fri Sep 14 19:22:26 2007 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:22:26 -0400 Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com Message-ID: <007b01c7f72e$7ec0a860$6400a8c0@core2duo> Hello Kaypro fans, I'd like to put a Kayplus83 rom into a Kaypro II so I can add double sided drives and have all the other nice stuff that the rom provides. It's the early model with an 81-110B1 motherboard that needs the wiring for the floppy side 2 added. The Advent Turborom manual has the wiring mods needed for side 2 access. The Kaypro II comes with a 2K eprom and the Kayplus83 is an 8K. Again the Turborom manual tells how to access a 4K rom and adding access to the A12 line should make the 8K rom work. I think that I've got that part all worked out. To make the Kayplus boot disk, you have to have a system size of 62K or smaller. My Kaypro II disk has a 64K system. When I run movcpm.com to change the system size, the program hangs. I also tried the version of movcpm that comes with the Kaypro 4 and that hangs also. So question (1) is, has anyone gotten this program to work or is there another easy way to do this? There's a blurb on the net about the Kaypro 1 movcpm not working right but I didn't see anything about the Kaypro II version. Question (2) is, should the movcpm program from another Kaypro model work on a II or are they all specific to 1 model. TIA. Ralph From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 14 19:56:56 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More stuff in Pasadena-Arcadia Message-ID: The chap I told you about earlier with the Nova 4 still needs some help paring down his oversized collection. I will be down there tomorrow (Saturday) to pick up the last of what I'm selling for him. There still is a lot of early PC-related things, ham stuff, telecom crap, and miscellanous miscelleny. Is there anyone out there who's willing to spend this Saturday helping him clean up things? Anything that doesn't get hauled away will otherwise get hauled away by the e-waste disposal people. And they aren't kind to vintage stuff. So, if this sounds like your idea of fun, email me at the below email address or my yahoo account (username: cupricus) and we'll get things set up. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 14 20:03:12 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:03:12 +0100 Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <46EAB648.30367.A58B16F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46EAE849.9090700@yahoo.co.uk>, <755204.11656.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <46EAB648.30367.A58B16F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46EB2F50.9060504@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Sep 2007 at 16:13, Chris M wrote: > >> Isn't the main issue when programming these things >> the applied voltage? > > Not entirely--particularly in the 128Kbit and under categories, the > programming algorithm could vary significantly from vendor to vendor. Hence the reason that the 'bigger' programmers use cartridges or other ways of holding data on each manufacturer's part - which is OK until you find something that the cartridges you have don't cover :-) I suppose there's a related question here - if an EPROM is programmed with the wrong algorithm, but programming still works (and the data then held in the EPROM is shown to be valid), is there a danger that the EPROM might go 'forgetful' sooner than if the correct algorithm was used? Or is one algorithm as good as another in terms of longevity, and once a bit is unset / set as necessary it'll stay that way regardless - and the only thing affected by the algorithm is whether programming works at all? I'd rather not have a part go corrupt in a short space of time because the wrong algorithm was used, but I don't *think* it works that way thankfully... From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 14 20:51:19 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:51:19 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [Electronics_101] On this day References: <200709131753.03449.rtellason@verizon.net> <46E96207.31454.527932D@cclist.sydex.com> <200709141216.45911.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <46EB3A96.CC0AA3CC@cs.ubc.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I often wonder about the process that lead to the design of the drive. I can > picture a couple of engineers sitting mulling over the problem over a few > beers, trying to get more capacity out of their disks. One gets up to go and > get a round in, and decides to go stick something on the jukebox... We were having a similar discussion on the list a couple of years ago: ******* BEGIN OLD MSG ********* Subject: Re: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:12:56 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert To: >Eric Smith wrote: > > > > Tom wrote: > > > Hand-wave -- it was obvious. > > > > In hindsight it looks obvious. I'm not convinced that it was > > obvious 50 years ago. I can imagine a couple of engineers in the 1950s hanging out at the diner for lunch and discussing "we need something with capabilities similar to drums but with a lot more storage capacity". One of the engineers gets up from his seat and puts a nickel in the jukebox, and watches the tone-arm move amongst the stack of disc records... ******* END OLD MSG ********* It's also interesting to note that audio recording went through the same transition: starting out on drums (cylinders) and then moving to discs. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Sep 14 21:57:34 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:57:34 -0600 Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) power pigtail connector Message-ID: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com> I've acquired an IBM 4865 drive for my 5160 XT - it is a 3.5" external drive. I've got the 1.44MB version which is wrong for the XT, but with the correct media (1MB diskettes) it might work. Besides the normal 37 pin D shell connector that goes to the back of the floppy controller this drive has a little 4 connector pigtail to provide operating voltage for the drive. I've picked the drive apart and I think I know what the pins on the power pigtail are supposed to be. I'd like to find a nice matching socket for the pigtail instead of just hacking it, but after an hour into the world of Molex and Amphenol I've decided to ask for help ... The picture can be found here: http://brutman.com/dscf6030.jpg Thanks in advance, Mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 14 21:03:18 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:03:18 -0700 Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <46EB2F50.9060504@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46EAE849.9090700@yahoo.co.uk>, <755204.11656.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <46EAB648.30367.A58B16F@cclist.sydex.com> <46EB2F50.9060504@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:03:12 +0100> From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> To: > Subject: Re: EPROM Question> > Chuck Guzis wrote:> > On 14 Sep 2007 at 16:13, Chris M wrote:> > > >> Isn't the main issue when programming these things> >> the applied voltage?> > > > Not entirely--particularly in the 128Kbit and under categories, the > > programming algorithm could vary significantly from vendor to vendor. > > Hence the reason that the 'bigger' programmers use cartridges or other ways of > holding data on each manufacturer's part - which is OK until you find > something that the cartridges you have don't cover :-)> > I suppose there's a related question here - if an EPROM is programmed with the > wrong algorithm, but programming still works (and the data then held in the > EPROM is shown to be valid), is there a danger that the EPROM might go > 'forgetful' sooner than if the correct algorithm was used?> > Or is one algorithm as good as another in terms of longevity, and once a bit > is unset / set as necessary it'll stay that way regardless - and the only > thing affected by the algorithm is whether programming works at all?> > I'd rather not have a part go corrupt in a short space of time because the > wrong algorithm was used, but I don't *think* it works that way thankfully...> Hi My experience is that the old 50 ms pulse method works for most any of them. Most of the newer algorithms are related to programming as fast as one can. If you don't mind taking a long time, the slower pulse should work. They also usually have special voltage conditions for manufacture ID and checking programmed values when running fast algorithms. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Capture your memories in an online journal! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 15 01:54:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:54:22 -0400 Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <93165.66706.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <93165.66706.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 14, 2007, at 7:49 PM, Chris M wrote: > I'm not familiar with algorithmic steps in eprom > programming. Could this roughly be likened to a > protocol like those used in serial communications (if > I'm correct, I'll assume they'd be much simpler). > On the other hand does the programming algorithm > translate to the *timing* issues that were mentioned > in a previous post? Or are they related to > rise-and-fall times and that such issues. For EPROMs, it's a matter of setting the address/data/CS/etc lines and activating the programming voltage at the right times, typically repeating many times per location. "Smart" or adaptive algorithms will pulse the location with the right bit values until they read back correctly, then do N number of additional cycles for a safety margin. Parallel flash chips do things very differently...you typically need to write a certain pattern of bytes to a certain location to "unlock" the device, then it can be written to. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 15 01:58:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:58:09 -0700 Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) power pigtail connector In-Reply-To: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com> References: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46EB2011.5900.BF5E730@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2007 at 20:57, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > The picture can be found here: > > http://brutman.com/dscf6030.jpg Neither Amphenol nor Molex, I think, but rather AMP. Have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/2b8hh7 See anything that might work? Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Sep 15 05:27:40 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:27:40 -0800 Subject: Computer rescue In-Reply-To: <435331.80810.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <435331.80810.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46EBB39C.2080507@pacbell.net> Chris M wrote: > holy Toledo!!! I must have missed the post, I is on > the east coast. > What did that operation coast pray tell? It was quite expensive, as you might imagine, approximately $7k. This was a blanket wrap shipment on a specialty carrier with a two-man crew on each end to load and unload, using a crane van that can load from ground level without a dock. A standard van would have run just over $6k from the same company. Per pound, a full truckload shipment is *much* cheaper than shipping a few racks at a time, and guarantees that your shipment stays on the truck and is not offloaded anywhere in transit. --Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 15 08:49:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:49:46 -0700 Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com In-Reply-To: <007b01c7f72e$7ec0a860$6400a8c0@core2duo> References: <007b01c7f72e$7ec0a860$6400a8c0@core2duo> Message-ID: Hi My understanding of movcpm.com is that it needs to be the exact one that comes with that version. I beleive it has tables of addresses to replace. If you have ROMs, it is unlikely that it is a 64K CPM. One would need to allow some space for the ROMs. It may already be a 62K. You might try moving to something you know is safe like 32K. Dwight > From: redodd at comcast.net> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:22:26 -0400> Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com> > Hello Kaypro fans,> > I'd like to put a Kayplus83 rom into a Kaypro II so I can add double sided drives and have all the other nice stuff that the rom provides. It's the early model with an 81-110B1 motherboard that needs the wiring for the floppy side 2 added. The Advent Turborom manual has the wiring mods needed for side 2 access. The Kaypro II comes with a 2K eprom and the Kayplus83 is an 8K. Again the Turborom manual tells how to access a 4K rom and adding access to the A12 line should make the 8K rom work. I think that I've got that part all worked out. To make the Kayplus boot disk, you have to have a system size of 62K or smaller. My Kaypro II disk has a 64K system. When I run movcpm.com to change the system size, the program hangs. I also tried the version of movcpm that comes with the Kaypro 4 and that hangs also. So question (1) is, has anyone gotten this program to work or is there another easy way to do this? There's a blurb on the net about the Kaypro 1 movcpm not working right but I didn't see anything about the Kaypro II version. Question (2) is, should the movcpm program from another Kaypro model work on a II or are they all specific to 1 model. TIA.> > Ralph _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 15 08:49:28 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:49:28 -0700 Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com In-Reply-To: <007b01c7f72e$7ec0a860$6400a8c0@core2duo> References: <007b01c7f72e$7ec0a860$6400a8c0@core2duo> Message-ID: Hi My understanding of movcpm.com is that it needs to be the exact one that comes with that version. I beleive it has tables of addresses to replace. If you have ROMs, it is unlikely that it is a 64K CPM. One would need to allow some space for the ROMs. It may already be a 62K. You might try moving to something you know is safe like 32K. Dwight > From: redodd at comcast.net> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:22:26 -0400> Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com> > Hello Kaypro fans,> > I'd like to put a Kayplus83 rom into a Kaypro II so I can add double sided drives and have all the other nice stuff that the rom provides. It's the early model with an 81-110B1 motherboard that needs the wiring for the floppy side 2 added. The Advent Turborom manual has the wiring mods needed for side 2 access. The Kaypro II comes with a 2K eprom and the Kayplus83 is an 8K. Again the Turborom manual tells how to access a 4K rom and adding access to the A12 line should make the 8K rom work. I think that I've got that part all worked out. To make the Kayplus boot disk, you have to have a system size of 62K or smaller. My Kaypro II disk has a 64K system. When I run movcpm.com to change the system size, the program hangs. I also tried the version of movcpm that comes with the Kaypro 4 and that hangs also. So question (1) is, has anyone gotten this program to work or is there another easy way to do this? There's a blurb on the net about the Kaypro 1 movcpm not working right but I didn't see anything about the Kaypro II version. Question (2) is, should the movcpm program from another Kaypro model work on a II or are they all specific to 1 model. TIA.> > Ralph _________________________________________________________________ More photos; more messages; more whatever ? Get MORE with Windows Live? Hotmail?. NOW with 5GB storage. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Sep 15 11:05:35 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:05:35 -0400 Subject: Computer rescue In-Reply-To: <46EBB39C.2080507@pacbell.net> References: <435331.80810.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <46EBB39C.2080507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200709151205.35636.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 15 September 2007 06:27, William Maddox wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > holy Toledo!!! I must have missed the post, I is on > > the east coast. > > What did that operation coast pray tell? > > It was quite expensive, as you might imagine, > approximately $7k. This was a blanket wrap > shipment on a specialty carrier with a two-man Actually, that doesn't sound too bad of a price to me. How far was it moved? A couple years ago, we had a set of 10 (24" IBM SP) racks and a couple of pallets moved from San Diego to West Lafayette, and it was about $10k (and they managed to do a good job of crushing the thin, metal mesh skins on the thing with ratchet straps.. at least they seemed to pop back into shape ok for the most part). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 15 11:50:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:50:08 -0700 Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com In-Reply-To: References: <007b01c7f72e$7ec0a860$6400a8c0@core2duo>, Message-ID: <46EBAAD0.28045.E13E0CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2007 at 6:49, dwight elvey wrote: > My understanding of movcpm.com is that it needs to be the > exact one that comes with that version. I beleive it has > tables of addresses to replace. Just so. Since MOVCPM contains a copy of CP/M itself, said copy also contains a serial number, which must match the one of the system you're executing MOVCPM on. If you've got a debugger, the point where the check is made is easy to find and disable, however. Part of DRI's OEM agreement was that each copy of CP/M had to be serialized. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Sep 15 11:02:03 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:02:03 -0300 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] Message-ID: <01C7F799.3B15F460@mandr71> --------------Original Message: Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:09:17 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Wang 300 Calc > > On 13/09/2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > It still doesn't excuse having a physically-but-not-functionally > > interchangeable connector for PS/2 mice and keyboards, though. That is > > where USB has a big win. > > Absolutely 100% concur. That was criminally stupid. IIRC, the PS/2 mouse interface and PS/2 keyboard interface are very similar. Both are TTL level interfaces with clock and data lines, both have 4 signals on the connector (+5V, ground, clock, data), and the data transfer protocol is much the same. IIRC, the pin assignemts of the 2 interfaces is the same too, and it's possible to make a device where you can plug the mouse and keyboard into either connector, and detect what sort of device is plugged into a given socket. The fact that most PCs didn't let you do that is not the fault of the interface. So why not use the same connector for the 2 interfaces? -tony -----------------Reply: Why not indeed; old Compaq laptops have a single connector which will accept either a mouse or an external keyboard (an external key_pad_ used a submini earphone-type connector). IBM allowed for both together; a mouse or external keypad connected directly to the single connector while an external keyboard required a Y adapter which routed the keyboard clock & data signals to the two unused pins. And then there are the dual-mode mice which put RS-232 on the unused pins and came with an adapter so they could be used either way... Laptops were probably also a reason for reducing the size of the connector. "Criminally stupid"? I suppose you'd also want incompatible connectors for the right & left channels of your stereo? ;-) Funny how on the one hand I read the sentiment here that people should be required to pass a course in advanced computer science before being allowed to plug in a computer, and then that they should be so simple to hook up that a retarded^H^H^H^H mentally-challenged blind^H^H^H vision-impaired chimpanzee could do it; just no pleasing some folks... m From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 15 12:40:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:40:49 -0700 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <01C7F799.3B15F460@mandr71> References: <01C7F799.3B15F460@mandr71> Message-ID: <46EBB6B1.317.E4248AF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2007 at 13:02, M H Stein wrote: > Funny how on the one hand I read the sentiment here that people should be required > to pass a course in advanced computer science before being allowed to plug in a > computer, and then that they should be so simple to hook up that a retarded^H^H^H^H > mentally-challenged blind^H^H^H vision-impaired chimpanzee could do it; > just no pleasing some folks... I dunno, Mike. I'm generally capable of operating most any computer, but my eyesight is terrible (and not getting any better with age). I'd sure as heck would like the assurance that whatever plug I'm sticking into a receptacle at least isn't going to result in "magic smoke" (see my earlier comment on wall wart perversion) even if I didn't quite read the label on the box correctly. Making this vintage--does anyone remember the competitions the Eagle used to run, taking a bunch of people off the street, presenting each with a boxed Eagle (III, I think) and timing them to see how quickly they could set the thing up. IIRC, the record was in the sub-one minute range. This was in Eagle's glory days, before Barnhart mistakenly concluded that speed really doesn't kill... Cheers, Chuck From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Sep 15 13:08:53 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:08:53 -0400 Subject: GPS chipsets Message-ID: <46EC1FB5.2080200@radiorobots.com> Hi All, Looking for GPS chipset docs from late 80s to early 90s. Maybe Thales, Sokkia, Javad, JRC, Trimble, Rockwell, etc? Any responses appreciated. Thanks, Steve From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Sep 15 13:36:57 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 11:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer rescue In-Reply-To: <200709151205.35636.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <808975.80122.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Actually, that doesn't sound too bad of a price to > me. How far was it > moved? >From Green Bank, West Virginia to San Jose, Calfornia. > A couple years ago, we had a set of 10 (24" IBM SP) > racks and a couple > of pallets moved from San Diego to West Lafayette, > and it was about > $10k Ouch. What carrier did you use? My shipment was arranged by CTS, via their "shippingsource.com" full-truckload division. Your shipment was probably declared at a high value, which adds considerably to the price, I think. My stuff is either scrap metal or irreplaceable treasure, depending on one's point of view. I simply arranged for the kind of shipment appropriate for high-value equipment and gambled that they'd do it right, because an insurance payout would not have been a satisfactory outcome in any case. --Bill From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Sep 15 13:49:24 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:49:24 -0400 Subject: Computer rescue In-Reply-To: <808975.80122.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <808975.80122.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709151449.24807.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 15 September 2007 14:36, William Maddox wrote: > --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Actually, that doesn't sound too bad of a price to > > me. How far was it > > moved? > > > >From Green Bank, West Virginia to San Jose, Calfornia. > > > > A couple years ago, we had a set of 10 (24" IBM SP) > > racks and a couple > > of pallets moved from San Diego to West Lafayette, > > and it was about > > $10k > > Ouch. What carrier did you use? My shipment was > arranged by CTS, via their "shippingsource.com" > full-truckload division. I don't know, and I should add that I meant to say "At work.." I definitely wouldn't have paid to ship the stuff. The weight per rack is around 2000-2100lbs, plus two or three pallets of 500-1000lbs each. But, it looks like you got much more stuff shipped quite a bit farther than work did. > Your shipment was probably declared at a high value, > which adds considerably to the price, I think. > My stuff is either scrap metal or irreplaceable > treasure, depending on one's point of view. I'm not sure. Most people would consider what was shipped "scrap metal", and even I wouldn't have called it "irreplacable treasure" (though, the systems are pretty neat in their own not-quite-vintage-yet way:). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 15 14:47:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:47:20 -0700 Subject: Need a sanity check In-Reply-To: <20070914172757.GA26168@kallisti.com> References: <200709141701.l8EH0rIE089087@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20070914172757.GA26168@kallisti.com> Message-ID: <46EBD458.19956.EB61E89@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2007 at 10:27, Allan Hessenflow wrote: > I buzzed out my Overland cable some time ago, and just checked the > handshake lines above against the reference you used. They match. > For reference, my cable wiring is at: > > http://www.kallisti.com/~allanh/misc/overlandperteccable.html Thanks, Allan. My point of curiosity was if the Overland cable was the same as that used for the Computer Logics PCTD16 controller. I suspect so, but I'm not certain. -Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 17:00:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:00:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070914153226.W55546@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 14, 7 03:33:41 pm Message-ID: [Mini-DIN plugs] > Why, other than excessive stinginess did they switch to that, instead of > the REAL 5 pin DIN that even I can solder? Those mini-DINs are the worst (common) connectors to solder, but the 6 pin ones are easier than the 9 pin. The Acorn Archimedes uses the latter for its mouse interface (it's a quatrature mouse with 3 buttons, the 9 pins being +5V, ground, the 4 quatradure signals and the 3 button signals). Anyway the first Arc I obtained came without a mouse. Obtaining a 3-button quadrature mouse was easy in those days (about 10 years ago), they were commonly sold as add-ons for the ST and Amiga. And getting a 9 pin mini-DIN plug wasn't hard either. But wiring it was,. Worse than that, as we all know, if you get the 2 quadrature signals for a given axis the wrong way round, the cursor moves the wrong way relative to the mouse motion. So while I could connect up the power lines and the buttons with some certainty, I had to 'edit' the quadrature signals to get things going the right way. And that was downright painful Acutally, I can see very little that's good about the mini-DIN connecotr. It's painful to wire, it doesn't have a good contact area, it's difficult to insuer (particularly 'blind', it's not that robust. I can see no reason qhy they should be used at all. -tpny From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 17:13:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:13:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM Question In-Reply-To: <93165.66706.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Sep 14, 7 04:49:21 pm Message-ID: > I'm not familiar with algorithmic steps in eprom > programming. Could this roughly be likened to a It depends on the chip :-). If we ignore the really old devices for the moment, and concentrate on the 2716 and later, there are 2 common algorithms. The old, slow, one goes as follows : 1) Power up the chip 2) Apply Vpp. This is the programming voltage, and was 25V on old chips, 21 on slightly newer ones, and 12.5V on newer ones still. If you use too high a voltage, you'll damage the chip. If you use too low, either it won't program at all (which isn't too bad), or more worryingly, it'll programm, but will loose data soon afterwards. 3) Select he location to be programemd using the address pins (normal TTL levels) 4) Apply the data to be programmed into that location to the data pins, again at TTL levels 5) Give a 'programming pulse' This is a 50ms TTL level pulse applied to a particualr pin o nthe chip. Some devices have a special PGM input. On others you apply it to the OE/ pin or something like that. The data sheet should tell you. >From what I rememebr, this algorithm is the _only_ supported one on 2716 and 2732s, it's OK on 2764s and 27128s, but at least some manufactuers don't recoemnd it on larger chips The other algorithm is called the 'intelegent algorithm' and is faster. The first 4 steeps are as above, but instead of applying a 50ms programming pulse, you apply a 1ms one, and then try to read the data back. If it doesn't read back correctly, apply another 1ms pulse, and so on, until either it verifies or you've given 50 pulses. In the later case, the EPROM is bad (!). In the former case, you then apply 5 times as many programming pulses as you already have given (I believe either as sepearate 1ms pulese, or as one long pulse). Some manufactuers suggest doing that verification of the programmed data with the 5V power pin at some other voltage (often 6V). And that you should do a final verification of the programmed data both with a high supply voltage and a low one (4.5v) just to be sure. IIRC, for some later EPROMs there was a way of reading out a manufacture/device ID. It involved applying Vpp, and probably pushing the 5V lione up to 6V, and then doing odd things with the other pins (but at TTL levels). This may be one some programmers refuse to program some manfuacturer's devices, they don't recognise this ID (even though using one of the 'geneirc' algorithms would work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 17:40:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:40:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <46EBB6B1.317.E4248AF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 15, 7 10:40:49 am Message-ID: > I dunno, Mike. I'm generally capable of operating most any computer, > but my eyesight is terrible (and not getting any better with age). > I'd sure as heck would like the assurance that whatever plug I'm > sticking into a receptacle at least isn't going to result in "magic Magic smoke is generally released by : 1) Overvoltage on one or more pins (e.g. connecting an RS232 signal to a TTL input) 2) Reversing power lines 3) Shorting TTL outputs together (although this may not do any damage if you're lucky) Since the PS/2 keyboard and mouse interfaces are electrically very similar, I can see no reason why you'd let the smoke out if you pluged them into each otehrs' conenctors, unless oyu plug a PS/2 keyboard into one of thsoe seiral pouse adapaters and then into an RS232 port. But that's a PS/2 interface, it's an adapter for a mouse that can either be PS/2 or RS232. Plugging a true PS/2(only) mouse into such and adapter would do damage too. I am suprised nobody has complained yet that IBM used a DB25 socket for a TTL-level parallel port. After all, plugging an RS232 cable in there will do a lot of damage. Or that HP used a 50 pin Microribbon connector for an RS232 port on some of their machines -- and evenbrought the sysem power lines (+5V, +12V, -12V) out on it. Connecting a SCSI device to that will not be pretty! I guess it may come down to the unix philosophy in the end. 'We don't stop you doing stuping things becuase that would stop you doing clever thigns too'. There may very goof reasons for wanting to connect a device to an interface connecotr the manufacturers didn;t think of... Of course no sane person uses mains connectors for anything but mains. Note I said 'sane'. There was at least one UK audio amplifier (I think it was a Pye) that used the same type connector -- a 2 pin Bulgin thing -- for both mains input and loudspeaker output. Swap them round, and you needed a new output transfdormer. I also once had to repair an infrared spectrometer where the manufacturers had used such a Bulgin mains connector for the analogue output signal. There was no other mains connector on the electronics box, so the operator had, not suprisingly, connected mains to that. In factm the electronics got its mains supply down a multi-core cable (also carrying motor control signals, etc) from the optical unit (which did have a mains cable). Needless to say applying mains ot the output let some smoke out (but suprisingly lttle -- I think one resistor was burnt out). > smoke" (see my earlier comment on wall wart perversion) even if I Hmmm... I can see both sides to this. On the one hand, it's a very bad idea to use the wrong PSU ('wrong' in voltage, or polarity, or...). So having unique connectors that only fit the right device would seem to be beneficial. But ther other side is that wall-wrts get sepearated from the devices the power. They may fail. And they're often mains-voltage-specific (a problem for Europeans wanting to use US stuff...). Some years ago, I bought one of those packs from Maplin of the 16 most common power connector 'tips' and a cable with a moudled socket on the end to take them. The other end of the cable I wired to a couple of 4mm plugs to fit my bench supply. THis has proved invaluable over the years for powering up units where the original wall-wart is missing or can't be used. So I can see the beenfit of a stanard connector too, one that I can match up with one from this kit. Also, wall warts fail. Often the output cable fractures internally, close to the moulded connector. If you can't get the connector, you may be stuck trying to get a new wall-wart. Try that for a 20 year old unit sometime :-) On the whole, I guess I'm in favour of standard connectors (2.1mm coaxial, 2.5mm coasial, maybe 2.5mm and 3.5mm jack plugs), but giving the power requerements and polarity on the unit iteslf somewhere (either on the nameplate label, or on the silkscreen of the PCB inside, or...). Not in the manual only, as that can get lost too. > didn't quite read the label on the box correctly. > > Making this vintage--does anyone remember the competitions the Eagle > used to run, taking a bunch of people off the street, presenting each > with a boxed Eagle (III, I think) and timing them to see how quickly > they could set the thing up. IIRC, the record was in the sub-one > minute range. How pointless, consdiering how rarely most people need to set up a new computer, compared to doing other things with it. It's similar to the 'easy to learn' claims of a lot of products. I don't much care about that. What I want to know is whether, once I've leart to use it, will it save me time/effort/whatever. I am quite prepared to take time to learn something that will, and equally, won't waste any time at all on somethign that won't. Incidetally, I was once timed to see how long it would take me to dismantle an ASR33 into the main sections (cover, base pan, typing unit, keyboard, punch, reader, call control unit) and put them back together again. I think I got it down to under 5 minutes in each case. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Sep 15 18:36:22 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:36:22 -0400 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709151936.22756.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 15 September 2007 18:40, Tony Duell wrote: > Of course no sane person uses mains connectors for anything but > mains. Note I said 'sane'. There was at least one UK audio amplifier > (I think it was a Pye) that used the same type connector -- a 2 pin > Bulgin thing -- for both mains input and loudspeaker output. Swap > them round, and you needed a new output transfdormer. I also once had > to repair an infrared spectrometer where the manufacturers had used > such a Bulgin mains connector for the analogue output signal. What connector is that exactly? Bulgin seems to make a variety of different connectors. Do you mean one of the IEC-320 series, like a C18? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 15 20:53:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:53:35 -0700 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: References: <46EBB6B1.317.E4248AF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 15, 7 10:40:49 am, Message-ID: <46EC2A2F.9663.10056B8E@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2007 at 23:40, Tony Duell wrote: I said - > > I'd sure as heck would like the assurance that whatever plug I'm > > sticking into a receptacle at least isn't going to result in "magic > Since the PS/2 keyboard and mouse interfaces are electrically very > similar, I can see no reason why you'd let the smoke out if you pluged > them into each otehrs' conenctors, unless oyu plug a PS/2 keyboard into > one of thsoe seiral pouse adapaters and then into an RS232 port. No, but I didn't specify that I meant the keyboard and mouse ports (though there was some chatter about it. My concern is with things such as printer and RS232 ports using the same connector, or putting power on connector pins where it's possible to insert the connector "upside down". Or using a power connector and wiring it differently than the rest of the world (e.g. MD2 diskette drives as opposed to anyone's 3.5" diskette drive). I believe that a few old Calcomp 8" floppies actually put mains power through the signal connector on a couple of models. Wall warts are perhaps the worst examples of "user friendly" design. It's not sufficient that one match the voltage and current and AC vs. DC but one must also match the polarity. And the markings on some equipment is missing entirely or engraved/printed too small to see clearly. I've seen those little "tip and ring" symbols in all 4 possible orientations. Take a look at a dozen bits of equipment with wall warts and you'll note that many carry an entirely different branding than the equipment they power. So matching brands won't work. And even when there are matching brands, there's no specific information that a Sony CD player PSU belongs to the CD player and not the DAT drive sitting next to it. And so on. I have several of those "universal" wall warts and find them to be useful also. I also keep a doublet (magnifier) handy for deciphering those connector symbols. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 21:48:52 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 03:48:52 +0100 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <01C7F799.3B15F460@mandr71> References: <01C7F799.3B15F460@mandr71> Message-ID: <575131af0709151948m7bba9867hc1cb041ec5442cc0@mail.gmail.com> On 15/09/2007, M H Stein wrote: > --------------Original Message: > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:09:17 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Wang 300 Calc > > > > > On 13/09/2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > > > It still doesn't excuse having a physically-but-not-functionally > > > interchangeable connector for PS/2 mice and keyboards, though. That is > > > where USB has a big win. > > > > Absolutely 100% concur. That was criminally stupid. > > IIRC, the PS/2 mouse interface and PS/2 keyboard interface are very > similar. Both are TTL level interfaces with clock and data lines, both > have 4 signals on the connector (+5V, ground, clock, data), and the data > transfer protocol is much the same. > > IIRC, the pin assignemts of the 2 interfaces is the same too, and it's > possible to make a device where you can plug the mouse and keyboard into > either connector, and detect what sort of device is plugged into a given > socket. The fact that most PCs didn't let you do that is not the fault of > the interface. > > So why not use the same connector for the 2 interfaces? > > -tony > -----------------Reply: > > Why not indeed; old Compaq laptops have a single connector which will > accept either a mouse or an external keyboard (an external key_pad_ used > a submini earphone-type connector). > > IBM allowed for both together; a mouse or external keypad connected directly > to the single connector while an external keyboard required a Y adapter > which routed the keyboard clock & data signals to the two unused pins. > > And then there are the dual-mode mice which put RS-232 on the unused pins > and came with an adapter so they could be used either way... > > Laptops were probably also a reason for reducing the size of the connector. > > "Criminally stupid"? I suppose you'd also want incompatible connectors for > the right & left channels of your stereo? ;-) No no no, not at all. What I feel was stupid about the design was to make the connectors and electronics common (a good idea) and then /not/ allow users to just plug whatever they want into either port. Making the ports the same is smart; following that up with making them /not/ interchangeable, that is dumb. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 15 23:05:30 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 21:05:30 -0700 Subject: Parts for C64 Hardware Hacking Message-ID: Does anyone have a list out there that details what the part numbers are for the various pieces of hardware you would want to order when building stuff for the C64? As an example the Digi-Key part number for a User Port connector is EDC307240-ND. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 00:43:08 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:43:08 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? Message-ID: Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM eraser? As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 16 00:48:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 01:48:27 -0400 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 16, 2007, at 1:43 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM > eraser? As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one. Yes...Most EPROM erasers have that black static-dissipative foam in them to stick the chips in, and it will disintegrate and turn into a huge mess when it gets old. If you buy an older one, you might be in for some cleaning. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Sep 16 00:48:59 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 02:48:59 -0300 Subject: EPROM Erasers? References: Message-ID: <2a5101c7f825$4a6686a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM eraser? > As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one. Anything that erases eproms works :o) It is just a ballast and a special "germicide" lamp that is just a normal fluorescent lamp without the white powder inside. Never look at it when turned on, it will blind you! A timer is nice when you use a eraser. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 00:57:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:57:23 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46EC6353.18567.10E49EB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2007 at 22:43, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM > eraser? As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one. At one time, there was a study to see how long it took to erase an EPROM (this was in the 27128 era) if left on a sunny windowsill with the window open (normal window glass blocks a fair amount of short- wave UV). IIRC, it was about 4 days. At one time, clothes (tumble) dryers used to have a lamp called an "ozone lamp". It had a normal medium screw base and IIRC, some made a simple EEPROM eraser from one by installing it in a socket inside of a large soup tin/can. It apparently worked pretty well. In short, anything that provides *short wave* UV will work. So- called "black lights" and tanning lamps aren't much good in that department. But you can easily build your own, given the proper lamp. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Sep 16 01:09:34 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 01:09:34 -0500 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 16, 2007, at 1:43 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM >> eraser? As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one. > > Yes...Most EPROM erasers have that black static-dissipative foam in > them to stick the chips in, and it will disintegrate and turn into a > huge mess when it gets old. If you buy an older one, you might be in > for some cleaning. And every eraser I've seen on a professional's bench had either bare metal or a sheet of mylar on the floor. I just got a Data IO 29B from a friend, so I asked the guys at MC Howard where to get a good cheap eraser. Mel just said "Barber Supply". He says for hobby work, the barbers' UV sterilizers work great. Doc From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 16 05:16:17 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 05:16:17 -0500 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200709160920.l8G9Kj1H016964@hosting.monisys.ca> > Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM > eraser? As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one. Make sure it has a timer, or rig up an external timer. All to easy to forget about it and I've found that EPROMs tend not to work any more after spending several days under the lamp :-) -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Sep 16 04:19:25 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:19:25 +0100 Subject: PDP H7864 PSU schematic Message-ID: <200709160919.KAA19172@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Does anyone know whre I can find a schematic for the above, in a Micro 11/73. Mine just went bang - very loudly! I can fix it, but it would be easier with all the data available. Google turned up a few people selling PSUs and other people looking for the schematics too, but nothing else. -- Cheers, Stan -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 16 06:36:52 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:36:52 +0100 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> References: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1189942612.9309.6.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-09-16 at 01:09 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Yes...Most EPROM erasers have that black static-dissipative foam in > > them to stick the chips in, and it will disintegrate and turn into a > > huge mess when it gets old. If you buy an older one, you might be in > > for some cleaning. > > And every eraser I've seen on a professional's bench had either bare > metal or a sheet of mylar on the floor. Mine has a slotted metal tray that you drop the chips into with their legs dangling through the bars. It's bare as in not even painted in the bit that's exposed to UV, just (seemingly) galvanised. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 16 06:47:18 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:47:18 +0100 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <200709160920.l8G9Kj1H016964@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709160920.l8G9Kj1H016964@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1189943238.9309.10.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-09-16 at 05:16 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM > > eraser? As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one. > > Make sure it has a timer, or rig up an external timer. All to easy to > forget about it and I've found that EPROMs tend not to work any more > after spending several days under the lamp :-) How long should you erase EPROMs for? "Until they're done", I suppose, but does it vary from chip to chip? I tend to stick a big mixed batch of 2764 up to 27c2001 in (zapping samples blown into EPROMs) and bung it on for half an hour. The timer on my eraser goes up to 60 minutes. Gordon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 16 08:57:40 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 06:57:40 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <200709160920.l8G9Kj1H016964@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709160920.l8G9Kj1H016964@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: > From: dave06a at dunfield.com> > > Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM > > eraser? As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one.> > Make sure it has a timer, or rig up an external timer. All to easy to> forget about it and I've found that EPROMs tend not to work any more> after spending several days under the lamp :-)> Hi When working at Intel we used to fix these by baking them in an oven. I don't recall the temperature but it was very hot. I've always erases for about 25% longer then it takes to look erased from the programmer. The time varies from eraser to eraser and also from EPROM type. Newer EPROMs only seem to need about 10 minutes in the eraser that I use most of the time. Those that require 20 volts or more to program seem to take longer. You need a quartz tube murcury lamp to erase. Many have used dryer lamps. Any lamp from an ozone generator should work ( many have these on hot tubes ). If you have a way to keep it cool, a quartz halogen lamp might work but I've never given this a try. A carbon arc would work as well but I've not seen these since they've stopped using these in search lights. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Sep 16 09:02:14 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:02:14 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> References: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> Doc Shipley wrote: > > And every eraser I've seen on a professional's bench had either bare > metal or a sheet of mylar on the floor. > > I just got a Data IO 29B from a friend, so I asked the guys at MC > Howard where to get a good cheap eraser. Mel just said "Barber > Supply". He says for hobby work, the barbers' UV sterilizers work great. I'd watch that whatever the pins set on is conductive. I think you can get some static effects if you don't have conductive materials in the thing. I had one that was made in a black plastic bread box, and it had conductive foam to park the parts in. If you get a unit that isn't an eraser as suggested in other parts of the thread that is all I'd watch. Make sure that the other units have metal to set the parts on, since a barber shop sterilizer may have glass or such, and not metal. Jim From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 16 10:45:09 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:45:09 -0500 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <1189943238.9309.10.camel@elric> References: <200709160920.l8G9Kj1H016964@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200709161449.l8GEnb6W007177@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Make sure it has a timer, or rig up an external timer. All to easy to > > forget about it and I've found that EPROMs tend not to work any more > > after spending several days under the lamp :-) > > How long should you erase EPROMs for? "Until they're done", I suppose, > but does it vary from chip to chip? I tend to stick a big mixed batch > of 2764 up to 27c2001 in (zapping samples blown into EPROMs) and bung it > on for half an hour. The timer on my eraser goes up to 60 minutes. It varies with the device type, and "how well" it is programmed. For most devices I find 30-40 mins is fine. The main reason I suggested a timer is to avoid baking it for hours which will damage the parts. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 16 10:45:09 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:45:09 -0500 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> References: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200709161449.l8GEnb6U007177@hosting.monisys.ca> > I'd watch that whatever the pins set on is conductive. I think you can > get some static effects if you don't have conductive materials in the > thing. I had one that was made in a black plastic bread box, and it had > conductive foam to park the parts in. > > If you get a unit that isn't an eraser as suggested in other parts of > the thread that is all I'd watch. Make sure that the other units have > metal to set the parts on, since a barber shop sterilizer may have glass > or such, and not metal. My main eraser is a very simple device that I had quite a long time (late 70's or early 80's iirc) - it is a model "U/V 1" made by "L S Engineering Inc." of Chatsworth, CA. It looks almost homemade - it's basically a plastic utility box with a loose fitting lid. The UV tube and ballast are mounted in the box with a switch on the side. To use it, you put the lid on the table, position your IC's in it so the windows are in a row down the middle (It's a good sized box, you can erase 15-20 EPROMS at once, then put the box on top and turn on the light. At one point I added a timer from a dryer because I had a habit of forgetting about it (fortunately, there's lots of spare room in the box). Anyhow - there's nothing conductive about this thing. It's all plastic. I tested the lid with a gigaohm range meter and it's not aven slightly conductive. I've erased LOTS of devices in it, and never had a failure that couldn't be accounted for (ie: because I left it on overnight). I don't think it's necessary to use a conductive surface - Given that most devices being erased are used - ie: have been inserted and removed multiple times, it is highly unlikely that all the pins would contact a flat conductive surface. Same for a slotted holder - unlikely that all pins would be connected. Also, none of the data sheets I've seen on programming mention connecting the pins together. Can anyone provide a reference? Regards, Dave I have another portable eraser which is a much smaller but similar design by "Ultra-Violet Products Inc." of San-Gabriel, CA. It's only big enough to do 2-3 devices. This one does have a strip of conductive foam in the bottom the the "lid". My suspicion is that this is mainly there as a way to secure the chips in position so you can leave them in it when you move it. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Sep 16 10:42:29 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:42:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for Cards Message-ID: <008b01c7f878$3223f610$ba50ef42@66067007> I just got a hand punch used with the McBee Keysort system and would like to get a couple of the punch cards used with this system. From what I have read on the Internet these were out before IBM produced punch cards but they look very much like the 80-Col cards from IBM. If anyone has some please contact me off list. Thanks John Keys From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 16 11:59:21 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:59:21 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? Message-ID: > From: dave06a at dunfield.com>> > I don't think it's necessary to use a conductive surface - Given that> most devices being erased are used - ie: have been inserted and removed> multiple times, it is highly unlikely that all the pins would contact> a flat conductive surface. Same for a slotted holder - unlikely that> all pins would be connected. Also, none of the data sheets I've seen on> programming mention connecting the pins together. Can anyone provide a> reference?> The conductive foam is only about static when first inserting the EPROM to the eraser. If the UV light has been on for some time, it is unlikely to have any static on surfaces exposed the the UV light. UV erases static just as it does EPROMs. For static handling precautions always make sure to touch the surface before picking up or putting down the IC. Although, it is not desired from a contamination point of view, one shouldn't touch the leads of an IC, the best Faraday shield is enclosing the IC in your fist. I've used this method for handling such sensitive parts as 4051s and 4052s. If your hands are freshly cleaned, you won't have much oil and salts on your skin. From a manufacturer point of view, one should only move an IC from point A to B in a static safe enclosure. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From aijones2 at bsu.edu Sun Sep 16 12:10:36 2007 From: aijones2 at bsu.edu (ajones) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:10:36 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> > > I don't see why not; serial comms (over whatever medium) connecting two > machines is still 'networking' in my book. I the case you mention it may well > be only point-to-point rather than "lots of machines on the same line", but I > still think it qualifies. > Then let's go a step further. When/where did the first internetworking gear come onto the market? Not multi-protocol routing, just routing in general: segmented networks with nodes that moved traffic towards remote nodes on the behalf of local ones. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 12:15:16 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:15:16 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> References: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: At 7:02 AM -0700 9/16/07, jim wrote: >Doc Shipley wrote: > >> >> And every eraser I've seen on a professional's bench had either >>bare metal or a sheet of mylar on the floor. >> >> I just got a Data IO 29B from a friend, so I asked the guys at MC >>Howard where to get a good cheap eraser. Mel just said "Barber >>Supply". He says for hobby work, the barbers' UV sterilizers work >>great. > >I'd watch that whatever the pins set on is conductive. I think you >can get some static effects if you don't have conductive materials >in the thing. I had one that was made in a black plastic bread box, >and it had conductive foam to park the parts in. >If you get a unit that isn't an eraser as suggested in other parts >of the thread that is all I'd watch. Make sure that the other units >have metal to set the parts on, since a barber shop sterilizer may >have glass or such, and not metal. I did a quick Google, and it appears that it would be more difficult and expensive to get a barber's UV sterilizer than a proper EPROM eraser. In any case it sounds like any *cheap* EPROM eraser should be plenty good enough for me. :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 16 13:40:31 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:40:31 +0100 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? Message-ID: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> Hi, I've been doing some more work on the FDD reader/writer, and I came across an interesting note on the Software Preservation Society website: > We cannot yet support the Catweasel for technical reasons, primarily because > it does not yet enable us to read disks in sufficient detail for dumping, nor > does it allow writing IPF files back to disk. And while it does seem that the > Mk4 would be suited to the job, current models are still running Mk3 firmware > and drivers, meaning that we are still no closer forward in this regard. > > As soon as Mk4 firmware is available for these cards, we will do our best to > obtain one with a view to support it for these purposes. Until then, our hands > are tied. [http://www.softpres.org/glossary:catweasel] Now what I'd like to know is, what part of the Catweasel's design prevents it from being used for archiving discs? From what I remember, the Amiga FDD controller is a bog-standard raw reader with an MFM sync detector. All it does is sync up to a bitstream and read it from the disc as a raw stream until it gets told to A) shut up or B) receives another MFM sync. From what I've read, the Catweasel differs only in that it measures the timing between bits, and can do MFM pre-decoding. So what part of its design makes it such a bad choice for this kind of work? FWIW, I'm almost at the point where I can start thinking about doing the PCB designs for the USB floppy disc reader/writer. I've found a solution to the lack of I/Os on the microcontroller (which involves adding a second CPLD to act as an bus expander - probably over I2C). I'm going to do some testing on the bus expander Verilog code tonight, and update the schematics, then any spare time I get next week will probably be spent working on the PCB artwork. My intention is to take a weekend off work at some point in the next month to build up the prototype and do some coding and testing. If all goes well, I might do a small production run in November, depending on interest. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 13:45:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:45:58 -0700 Subject: Parts for C64 Hardware Hacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:05 PM -0700 9/15/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Does anyone have a list out there that details what the part numbers >are for the various pieces of hardware you would want to order when >building stuff for the C64? I realize it is a Sunday morning, and all, so most people probably haven't read last nights message. Anyway I decided to just go ahead and start my own list. Submissions are welcome. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/commodore/parts.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 13:57:53 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:57:53 -0700 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> References: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: At 7:40 PM +0100 9/16/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: >Now what I'd like to know is, what part of the Catweasel's design >prevents it from being used for archiving discs? I've no idea who these people are, but I find it interesting that they insist that PC 1.44MB floppies be read on a "GENUINE Amiga high density disk drive". In looking it appears that they are using their own software, "IPF" (Interchangeable Preservation Format), which likely is the real reason behind these edicts. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Sep 16 14:08:05 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 14:08:05 -0500 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> References: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46ED7F15.6010507@pacbell.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: ... > Now what I'd like to know is, what part of the Catweasel's design > prevents it from being used for archiving discs? Some people expect that just because they paid $100 for the card that professional grade drivers should exist for every possible disk format. Yes, the hardware does cost ~$100, but just about all you are buying is the card. The software is all done via hobbyist activity, with the quality, consistency, and support you might expect. Prior to the Mk IV design, writing to hard sectored formats was not really possible (unless you count writing a track blindly with semi arbitrary rotational phase, then attempting to read it back and starting over if it didn't work counts as possible). Mk IV has added some mechanisms for having the hardware wait until index/sector marks are seen before initiating a write. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 14:22:27 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:22:27 -0700 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: <46ED7F15.6010507@pacbell.net> References: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> <46ED7F15.6010507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: At 2:08 PM -0500 9/16/07, Jim Battle wrote: >Philip Pemberton wrote: >... >>Now what I'd like to know is, what part of the Catweasel's design >>prevents it from being used for archiving discs? > >Some people expect that just because they paid $100 for the card >that professional grade drivers should exist for every possible disk >format. It doesn't help that the way it was originally advertised was *VERY* misleading. I was not happy to learn that my Zorro Catweasel could only read C64, PC, and Amiga disk formats out of all the formats that it was advertised as being able to handle. At least now their advertising is more honest. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 16 14:26:02 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:26:02 +0100 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: References: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46ED834A.2030301@philpem.me.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've no idea who these people are, but I find it interesting that they > insist that PC 1.44MB floppies be read on a "GENUINE Amiga high density > disk drive". In looking it appears that they are using their own > software, "IPF" (Interchangeable Preservation Format), which likely is > the real reason behind these edicts. Basically, they have their own software that reads the discs and produces a raw image. Then you send them the image and they send the IPF back. The lack of a formal format specification for IPF means I'm not going to be implementing support for it in the FD Reader software. It doesn't look like there are many (any?) standard, open formats for raw disc archiving. DMK is a raw track dump (including sector headers), but AFAICT doesn't have any features to represent MFM 'weirdness', e.g. missing clocks and speed-shifting (which seems to be a feature of quite a few copy protection schemes). -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 16 14:33:45 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:33:45 +0100 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: <46ED7F15.6010507@pacbell.net> References: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> <46ED7F15.6010507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <46ED8519.9040200@philpem.me.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > Prior to the Mk IV design, writing to hard sectored formats was not > really possible (unless you count writing a track blindly with semi > arbitrary rotational phase, then attempting to read it back and starting > over if it didn't work counts as possible). Mk IV has added some > mechanisms for having the hardware wait until index/sector marks are > seen before initiating a write. I'm not quite sure how this would apply to the Amiga though - that uses a softsector MFM format. Looks like I'll mark this up as an unsourced statement - I can't find anyone other than SPS calling the Catweasel unsuitable for archiving, nor can I find any reason why it's so important to use an Amiga drive and controller (except maybe the old scientific rule of 'keep variables to a minimum'). Just that if there was a problem, I'd like to at least try and find a workaround before I commit my design to copper-and-fibreglass. I can always change the microcode and firmware later, but I'd rather get it as close to perfect on the first pass as possible... Thanks, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 16 14:39:18 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:39:18 -0400 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FDE4BB9-FC8B-43E2-B1A6-3C2DE7CCE796@neurotica.com> On Sep 15, 2007, at 4:01 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able > to get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean > packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about > 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs > here: http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > > I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does > anyone have any background information on them? I have one of those. It's simply a PDP-11/70 in a different type of cabinet with a different front panel...nothing else weird about it. > Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no > toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted > to these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. I don't know offhand what other systems came in that type of cabinets, but what you have is definitely a real 11/70. Your has the remote maintenance panel, which replaces the lights-and-switches front panel and allows DEC Field Service to dial into the machine's console and perform standard front-panel operations remotely. As I understand it, nearly all 11/70 systems were originally shipped with standard lights-and-switches front panels. Later in their life cycle, though, DEC swapped out many of those "real" front panels for these remote access panels like the one you have. Now for the important part: The lights-and-switches front panel was the property of the customer, and the policy was to leave them at the customer site. If you got this machine from the original owner, it's likely that the real front panel is stuck in a box in the back of a rack, or in a closet somewhere. Try to find it...it can easily be put back into place. When Brian Hechinger and I scored three 11/70 systems from a publishing house in Pennsylvania years ago, they had these remote panels installed. We found the real front panels and put them back the way they were supposed to be. Incidentally, two of those three systems were of the DECdatasystem-570 ("corporate cabinet") variety like yours. > Machines is fantastic condition having been stored for last 30 > years. Comes with 2 x RK07s (in floor standing cabs) and a tape drive. Fantastic! Umm, the drive to the left of the 11/70 in your picture looks more like an RM02/RM03 than an RK07 though...? Can yo confirm? > Any advice on moving RK07 drives? Do I need to lock heads? They are top-heavy, so be careful there. If memory serves, RK06/07 drives don't have a manual head locking mechanism. Congrats on that really nice system. It is very similar to mine here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Sep 16 14:44:51 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:44:51 -0600 Subject: 4 VAX workstations (no HDs) (St. Louis, MO) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46ED87B3.9060008@e-bbes.com> Richard wrote: > 3 VAX 4000-100A > 1 VAX 4000-60 > Is anybody out here bidding on it ? I would be interested in one of the 4000-100a, but not in the whole lot :( From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 16 15:06:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:06:59 -0400 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <1189943238.9309.10.camel@elric> References: <200709160920.l8G9Kj1H016964@hosting.monisys.ca> <1189943238.9309.10.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Sep 16, 2007, at 7:47 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> Is there anything I need to look out for when purchasing an EPROM >>> eraser? As part of my current project I'm looking to purchase one. >> >> Make sure it has a timer, or rig up an external timer. All to easy to >> forget about it and I've found that EPROMs tend not to work any more >> after spending several days under the lamp :-) > > How long should you erase EPROMs for? "Until they're done", I > suppose, > but does it vary from chip to chip? I tend to stick a big mixed batch > of 2764 up to 27c2001 in (zapping samples blown into EPROMs) and > bung it > on for half an hour. The timer on my eraser goes up to 60 minutes. It varies from chip to chip, and from eraser to eraser. More modern parts (EPROM-based PIC microcontrollers for example) can be erased in less than ten minutes in my eraser. Older EPROMs like 2716s take upwards of half an hour, sometimes 45mins. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 16 15:08:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:08:21 -0400 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> References: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <7093EA96-C7A7-4D13-B742-1C4B83B28477@neurotica.com> On Sep 16, 2007, at 10:02 AM, jim wrote: >> >> And every eraser I've seen on a professional's bench had either >> bare metal or a sheet of mylar on the floor. >> >> I just got a Data IO 29B from a friend, so I asked the guys at >> MC Howard where to get a good cheap eraser. Mel just said "Barber >> Supply". He says for hobby work, the barbers' UV sterilizers work >> great. > > I'd watch that whatever the pins set on is conductive. I think you > can get some static effects if you don't have conductive materials > in the thing. I had one that was made in a black plastic bread > box, and it had conductive foam to park the parts in. > If you get a unit that isn't an eraser as suggested in other parts > of the thread that is all I'd watch. Make sure that the other > units have metal to set the parts on, since a barber shop > sterilizer may have glass or such, and not metal. This is very true. EPROMs store their bits in "floating gates", which are conductive areas which are totally surrounded by an insulating material. Exposure to UV light causes that insulating material to become partially conductive, allowing the charge to drain from the floating gate...and that charge has to GO somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Sep 16 15:20:38 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:20:38 +0100 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: <46ED8519.9040200@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <005a01c7f89f$10d71c90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Looks like I'll mark this up as an unsourced statement - I can't find > anyone other than SPS calling the Catweasel unsuitable for archiving, > nor can I find any reason why it's so important to use an Amiga drive > and controller (except maybe the old scientific rule of 'keep > variables to a minimum'). Have you tried asking them? Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1010 - Release Date: 15/09/2007 19:54 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 15:31:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:31:34 -0700 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: <005a01c7f89f$10d71c90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <46ED8519.9040200@philpem.me.uk>, <005a01c7f89f$10d71c90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <46ED3036.12187.1404F22F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2007 at 21:20, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Looks like I'll mark this up as an unsourced statement - I can't find > > anyone other than SPS calling the Catweasel unsuitable for archiving, > > nor can I find any reason why it's so important to use an Amiga drive > > and controller (except maybe the old scientific rule of 'keep > > variables to a minimum'). The MK3 (and MK4) departed from earlier versions by putting the code into protected mode Windows 2K/XP and Linux. As both are multi- tasking OS-es, precision of timing isn't guaranteed--nor is the ability to disable interrupts for relatively long periods of time. However, in good old MS-DOS, even the MK 1 can handle tasks such as hard-sector writing--it's just a matter of software (stall until you see the index status go true). For precision in timing, I read the 8254 timers directly. If you care about time of day ticks being preserved, enable the timer interrupt and use your own very short ISR to count timer ticks. MS-DOS is still great for a lot of things. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 12:50:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:50:46 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> References: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <46ED0A86.8713.1371BAF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2007 at 13:10, ajones wrote: > Then let's go a step further. When/where did the first internetworking > gear come onto the market? Not multi-protocol routing, just routing in > general: segmented networks with nodes that moved traffic towards remote > nodes on the behalf of local ones. Does Usenet UUCP-type networking count? Cheers, Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Sep 16 15:36:49 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 22:36:49 +0200 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <2FDE4BB9-FC8B-43E2-B1A6-3C2DE7CCE796@neurotica.com> References: <2FDE4BB9-FC8B-43E2-B1A6-3C2DE7CCE796@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:39:18 -0400> To: cctech at classiccmp.org> CC: > Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11> > On Sep 15, 2007, at 4:01 PM, Tobias Russell wrote:> > Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able > > to get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean > > packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about > > 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs > > here: http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html)> >> > I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does > > anyone have any background information on them?> > I have one of those. It's simply a PDP-11/70 in a different type > of cabinet with a different front panel...nothing else weird about it.> > > Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no > > toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted > > to these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34.> > I don't know offhand what other systems came in that type of > cabinets, but what you have is definitely a real 11/70. Your has the > remote maintenance panel, which replaces the lights-and-switches > front panel and allows DEC Field Service to dial into the machine's > console and perform standard front-panel operations remotely.> > As I understand it, nearly all 11/70 systems were originally > shipped with standard lights-and-switches front panels. Later in > their life cycle, though, DEC swapped out many of those "real" front > panels for these remote access panels like the one you have. Now for > the important part: The lights-and-switches front panel was the > property of the customer, and the policy was to leave them at the > customer site. If you got this machine from the original owner, it's > likely that the real front panel is stuck in a box in the back of a > rack, or in a closet somewhere. Try to find it...it can easily be > put back into place.> > When Brian Hechinger and I scored three 11/70 systems from a > publishing house in Pennsylvania years ago, they had these remote > panels installed. We found the real front panels and put them back > the way they were supposed to be. Incidentally, two of those three > systems were of the DECdatasystem-570 ("corporate cabinet") variety > like yours.> > > Machines is fantastic condition having been stored for last 30 > > years. Comes with 2 x RK07s (in floor standing cabs) and a tape drive.> > Fantastic! Umm, the drive to the left of the 11/70 in your > picture looks more like an RM02/RM03 than an RK07 though...? Can yo > confirm?> > > Any advice on moving RK07 drives? Do I need to lock heads?> > They are top-heavy, so be careful there. If memory serves, > RK06/07 drives don't have a manual head locking mechanism.> > Congrats on that really nice system. It is very similar to mine > here.> > -Dave> > -- > Dave McGuire> Port Charlotte, FL> Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 It's been more than a year that I had a look into my 11/70's. I have one with the "full console", and one with the "remote" console. If you remove the remote console and replace it with a full console you must remove the M8255-01 board in slot 40. The console terminal board (M7856) then goes in slot 40, position C thru F. The disk drive next to the DataSystem-570 is not RK06 or RK07. I miss the ( - shaped opening in the lid through which you can see the pack. This indeed looks as an RM02 or (more likely) an RM03. Remember, the 11/70 had 4 Massbus interfaces to which RM03 will connect just fine. RM02's are also Massbus (AFAIK) but rotate slower. The RM03 rotates the spindle at 3600 rpm, whereas the RM02 does it at 2400 rpm. With that lowered speed you could connect an RM02 to the RH11 and have a Massbus disk drive connected to a UNIBUS machine. At 3600 rpm the UNIBUS bandwidth was too limited to handle the massive data transfer. I could be wrong, this is all from memory ... Henk www.pdp-11.nl For the PDP-11/70 with the remote console, remove the M7856 and install an M8255-01 (A-F) in slot 40 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 15:20:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:20:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <200709151936.22756.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Sep 15, 7 07:36:22 pm Message-ID: > > On Saturday 15 September 2007 18:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > Of course no sane person uses mains connectors for anything but > > mains. Note I said 'sane'. There was at least one UK audio amplifier > > (I think it was a Pye) that used the same type connector -- a 2 pin > > Bulgin thing -- for both mains input and loudspeaker output. Swap > > them round, and you needed a new output transfdormer. I also once had > > to repair an infrared spectrometer where the manufacturers had used > > such a Bulgin mains connector for the analogue output signal. > > What connector is that exactly? Bulgin seems to make a variety of > different connectors. Do you mean one of the IEC-320 series, like a > C18? Oh mo, it's not one of the _modern_ standard mains connectors. Bulgin make/made a large variety of connectors along with things like fuseholders, switches, knobs, etc. I probably have an old enough catalouge somewhere to get the exact part number, but %deity knows where said catalogue is :-) I am not sure if theyr were ever used outside the UK (but the 3 pin versionswere very common as mains connectors in the 1950s/1960s here). I can't think of any classic-computer related device that used them. Anyway, the connectors I am thinking of were part of as series. They were circular, most of them were chassis mouting plugs and cable sockets. The plug was recessed into the panel, and the socket part fitted into it. There were 1.5A and 5A versions with 2, 3, or 6 pins. Polaraision was acheaived by a groove down the side of the socket part and a corresponding ridge in the recessed plug. In many cases the wire terminals on the socket part were covered by a simple screw-on cap which means they're not not approved for use above 50V (since you can unscrew said cap and get access to live parts without the use of a tool). There were later mocels of some of the sockets with the cover held on by screws, AFAIK those are still OK for mains use. If you like I can tey to find the part numbers for them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 15:32:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:32:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <46EC2A2F.9663.10056B8E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 15, 7 06:53:35 pm Message-ID: > No, but I didn't specify that I meant the keyboard and mouse ports > (though there was some chatter about it. My concern is with things > such as printer and RS232 ports using the same connector, or putting Of course the DB25 conneoctr has been used for all sorts of things, not only computer-related. IIRC, the original ones were rated for 750V, so it's not unhard-of for them to be carrying the HT+ (B+) line in valved equipment. Hoewever, you can also go too far the other way and end up with wha the Hacker's Dictionary refers to as 'Connector Conspiracy'. When the only thing that can plug in is the manufacturer's cabe/peripheral. This makes life very difficult for the likes of us 10 years on when said cables are long-since unobtainable. > power on connector pins where it's possible to insert the connector > "upside down". Or using a power connector and wiring it differently > than the rest of the world (e.g. MD2 diskette drives as opposed to > anyone's 3.5" diskette drive). I believe that a few old Calcomp 8" > floppies actually put mains power through the signal connector on a > couple of models. I find that very hard to believe. I would be suprised if most (if any) signal connecotres met the approvale requirements for a mains connector. [...] > Take a look at a dozen bits of equipment with wall warts and you'll > note that many carry an entirely different branding than the > equipment they power. So matching brands won't work. And even when Some of my classic-computer devices (mostly Japanese handhelds and laptops) Have something like 'Use only AC adpater model ' on the lavel, or moulded into the case. I assume the origianl adapter had there are matching brands, there's no specific information that a > Sony CD player PSU belongs to the CD player and not the DAT drive > sitting next to it. And so on. It's inexcusable IMHO when 2 related devices from the same manufactuer have different power requirements, come with different wall-warts, but use the same power connector. That's just asking for trouble, It also suprises me how few devices have even revers-polarity protection on the input. I would have thought it would be worth including a diode in each device, but anyway... > I have several of those "universal" wall warts and find them to be I don't trust wall-warts at all. IMHO they're downright dangerous, most have no proper overcurrent protection. I've had the unversal type get hot enough to melt the case when the '9V battery connector' on the output side happened to touch one of the outers of the 4-ended plug on the same output, thus short-circuiting the supply. There was no internal fuse and the supposed safe fusing of the transformer windings simply didn't happen. > useful also. I also keep a doublet (magnifier) handy for deciphering > those connector symbols. I've been knopwn to dismandle the device and trace out enough od the circuitry to work out what it's expecting. That's if I don't have the service manual, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 15:37:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:37:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <1189943238.9309.10.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Sep 16, 7 12:47:18 pm Message-ID: > How long should you erase EPROMs for? "Until they're done", I suppose, IIRC most data sheets give times of around 20 minutes. There was a circuit in one of the maganzines (probably Elektor) a few years back for an intellegent EPROM eraser. It kept on reading out all the locations of the chip and left the lamp on until all bits read out as 1'sm then gave times more exposure to be sure. Now whether the rest of the chip (address decoerd sense amplifier, etc) was known to work correctly when exposed to UV light, so how reliable this test is, is another matter -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 15:40:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:40:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 16, 7 06:57:40 am Message-ID: > A carbon arc would work as well but I've not seen these > since they've stopped using these in search lights. And if the arc happens to jump to the pins of the EPROM, it'll surely be erased, but not, alas, reporgrammable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 15:54:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:54:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <2FDE4BB9-FC8B-43E2-B1A6-3C2DE7CCE796@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 16, 7 03:39:18 pm Message-ID: > > Any advice on moving RK07 drives? Do I need to lock heads? > > They are top-heavy, so be careful there. If memory serves, Normally the standard under an RK07 is empty, which is what makes them very top-heavy. if you want to remvoe the drvie from the stand, take off the doors and side panels, then there are 4 screws that go up fron underneath through the top fo the stand into the drive. I cna't lift an RK07 drive on my own, it's a stagger-job for 2 people IMHO. If ytou are stuck moving one on your own. it's possible to take it apart into carryable bits without disturbing any alignment, but it's a bit of work. Let me know if you want me to talk you through it. > RK06/07 drives don't have a manual head locking mechanism. There's an emergency-retract battery (IIRC 8 NiCD cells) which will almost certainly be flat, but more importantly, there's a head lock solenoid which will automatically lock the positioner in the home position when the power is turend off. THere's nothing you have to lock by hand when moving a drive. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Sep 16 16:31:16 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:31:16 -0300 Subject: EPROM Erasers? References: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <2b5f01c7f8a8$fb0ebdf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I'd watch that whatever the pins set on is conductive. I think you can > get some static effects if you don't have conductive materials in the > thing. I had one that was made in a black plastic bread box, and it had > conductive foam to park the parts in. Mine is a professional unit (although Brazil-made in 1980's) and hasn't anything conductive, only a layer of thick black paper on botton. But here we have not so many static electricity problems :oP From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 16:34:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:34:47 -0400 Subject: Early networking (was Re: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever) Message-ID: On 9/16/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Sep 2007 at 13:10, ajones wrote: > > > Then let's go a step further. When/where did the first internetworking > > gear come onto the market? Not multi-protocol routing, just routing in > > general: segmented networks with nodes that moved traffic towards remote > > nodes on the behalf of local ones. > > Does Usenet UUCP-type networking count? The routing in classic UUCP was manually done, but I would say it counts, but then I used UUCP on a nearly daily basis from about 1985 - 1996, so I could be biased. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 16 16:38:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:38:14 -0600 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46EDA246.90602@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> How long should you erase EPROMs for? "Until they're done", I suppose, > > IIRC most data sheets give times of around 20 minutes. > > There was a circuit in one of the maganzines (probably Elektor) a few > years back for an intellegent EPROM eraser. It kept on reading out all > the locations of the chip and left the lamp on until all bits read out as > 1'sm then gave times more exposure to be sure. Now whether the rest > of the chip (address decoerd sense amplifier, etc) was known to work > correctly when exposed to UV light, so how reliable this test is, is another > matter Cute idea. Reading a M2732A data sheet you need a minimum of 15 W-sec/cm^2 to erase with light at 2537 A. With a lamp of 12000 uW/cm^2 that is about 15 to 20 min. The recommend the chip be about 2.5 cm from the lamp. > -tony Ben alias woodelf. I wonder how much UV the big sparks you see in the lab on old horror movies are. :) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Sep 16 16:35:32 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:35:32 -0300 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] References: Message-ID: <2b8b01c7f8a9$b7911a90$f0fea8c0@alpha> > It's inexcusable IMHO when 2 related devices from the same manufactuer > have different power requirements, come with different wall-warts, but > use the same power connector. That's just asking for trouble, > It also suprises me how few devices have even revers-polarity protection > on the input. I would have thought it would be worth including a diode in > each device, but anyway... That's why I **always** label the wall wart of anything I buy new or used. I have a tray here with all of them, and I can find which is which in a second, just reading the labels I made. About the protection, it is inexcusable, but think: The manufacturer assumes you'll use the wart he sold you :) It's up to you to get confused and use another :o) And btw, they need to sell more new units :oD Greetz Alexandre From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Sep 16 16:36:53 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:36:53 -0300 Subject: MSX in RIO photoset References: Message-ID: <2b9601c7f8aa$72532990$f0fea8c0@alpha> Anyone interested in MSX photos? Last week we had the MSXRIO fair in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Here you are the photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12782885 at N04/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/29379227 at N00/sets/72157601958420285/ And some videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6iQnPltJD4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T28XCmncSwM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSbewVne6cI Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 17:36:06 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:36:06 -0500 Subject: 4 VAX workstations (no HDs) (St. Louis, MO) In-Reply-To: <46ED87B3.9060008@e-bbes.com> References: <46ED87B3.9060008@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730709161536g35a052e0rcab6f50df01d6ddd@mail.gmail.com> I've got them on my watch list. Never done a bid with DoveBid - are they as fun to deal with as GovLiq? On 9/16/07, e.stiebler wrote: > Richard wrote: > > 3 VAX 4000-100A > > 1 VAX 4000-60 > > > Is anybody out here bidding on it ? > I would be interested in one of the 4000-100a, but not in the whole lot :( > > -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 16 17:34:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:34:30 +0100 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46EDAF76.70404@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> power on connector pins where it's possible to insert the connector >> "upside down". Or using a power connector and wiring it differently >> than the rest of the world (e.g. MD2 diskette drives as opposed to >> anyone's 3.5" diskette drive). I believe that a few old Calcomp 8" >> floppies actually put mains power through the signal connector on a >> couple of models. > > I find that very hard to believe. I would be suprised if most (if any) > signal connecotres met the approvale requirements for a mains connector. You got me curious, so I just ran a search on Farnell's database for DB25 connectors rated to 500V; it coughed up 60 different ones. I can't think of an example where I've actually seen it done with D-types, but I've certainly come across it on telecomms stuff before using DIL-type card connectors (what I've always called 'euroconnectors', but I'm not sure what the official term is) It always looks a bit worrying to be running mains type voltages over that sort of thing, but I expect it's well within the limits of most parts. [wall warts] > It also suprises me how few devices have even revers-polarity protection > on the input. I would have thought it would be worth including a diode in > each device, but anyway... I bought one of those wall warts with a range of interchangeable connectors when I was in the US last. Seemed like a good idea at the time; the connectors were reversible so that you could swap polarity just by changing the connector through 180 degrees on the cable, not to mention that it came with about ten different sizes of connector. (the kids were getting through batteries in toys with lightning speed :-) It was only when I took the packaging off that I discovered the flaw: the terminals at the end of the cable are marked for polarity - but there are *no* markings on the interchangeable connectors which give an indication of which of the two pins goes to the connector's ring, and which goes to the tip. Without any test gear it's random as to the polarity of the plugged-in connector. From sethm at loomcom.com Sun Sep 16 18:16:54 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:16:54 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? Message-ID: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> Hi folks, Can anyone help identify the keyboard in these photos? (apart from the obvious, that it's made by Stackpole and has a part number of 86-90-0048 ;) http://www.loomcom.com/junk/stackpole1.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/junk/stackpole2.jpg I picked it up for fifty cents at a swap meet in the hopes that it might be an ASCII keyboard that I could use in an Apple I replica, but given that it has a 40-pin DIP socket, it's clearly not (it was very early in the morning, what can I say). It has a five-pin power header on the top left, two red LED indicators, the aforementioned 40- pin DIP socket, and only one IC, an SN7414N, so it's obviously not doing much logic. -Seth From redodd at comcast.net Sun Sep 16 18:27:09 2007 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:27:09 -0400 Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com References: <200709150700.l8F70MYq097972@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <008a01c7f8b9$1a533f50$6400a8c0@core2duo> ----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:22:26 -0400 >From: "Ralph E. Dodd" >Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com >Hello Kaypro fans, >I'd like to put a Kayplus83 rom into a Kaypro II so I can add double sided >drives and have all the other nice stuff that the >rom provides. It's the >early model with an 81-110B1 motherboard that needs the wiring for the >floppy side 2 added. The >Advent Turborom manual has the wiring mods >needed for side 2 access. The Kaypro II comes with a 2K eprom and the > >Kayplus83 is an 8K. Again the Turborom manual tells how to access a 4K >rom and adding access to the A12 line should >make the 8K rom work. I >think that I've got that part all worked out. To make the Kayplus boot >disk, you have to have a >system size of 62K or smaller. My Kaypro II disk >has a 64K system. When I run movcpm.com to change the system >size, the >program hangs. I also tried the version of movcpm that comes with the >Kaypro 4 and that hangs also. So >question (1) is, has anyone gotten this >program to work or is there another easy way to do this? There's a blurb >on the net >about the Kaypro 1 movcpm not working ! >right but I didn't see anything about the Kaypro II version. Question (2) is, should the movcpm program from another >Kaypro model work on a II or are they all specific to 1 model. TIA. >Ralph I was using a boot disk made from a downloaded image. After a long search, I found a copy of the original SBasic boot disk that I got when I bought the Kaypro II. Movcpm worked properly and I was able to sysgen a 60K system so the KayPlus configuration program worked. Thanks for all the help. Ralph From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 18:35:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:35:05 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 16, 7 06:57:40 am, Message-ID: <46ED5B39.6006.14ACF5CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2007 at 21:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > A carbon arc would work as well but I've not seen these > > since they've stopped using these in search lights. > > And if the arc happens to jump to the pins of the EPROM, it'll surely be > erased, but not, alas, reporgrammable. Ah well, you'll just have to use a magnesium flare, then (IIRC, lots of UV output). As your UV eraser bulb ages, the output will gradually decrease. So you may find that you may need to gradually increase the erasure time. Of course, magnesium flares don't have that problem... ;) Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Sep 16 18:41:51 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:41:51 -0500 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: <46ED834A.2030301@philpem.me.uk> References: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> <46ED834A.2030301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46EDBF3F.9020403@oldskool.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I've no idea who these people are, but I find it interesting that they >> insist that PC 1.44MB floppies be read on a "GENUINE Amiga high >> density disk drive". In looking it appears that they are using their >> own software, "IPF" (Interchangeable Preservation Format), which >> likely is the real reason behind these edicts. > > Basically, they have their own software that reads the discs and > produces a raw image. Then you send them the image and they send the IPF > back. > > The lack of a formal format specification for IPF means I'm not going to > be implementing support for it in the FD Reader software. It doesn't > look like there are many (any?) standard, open formats for raw disc > archiving. DMK is a raw track dump (including sector headers), but > AFAICT doesn't have any features to represent MFM 'weirdness', e.g. > missing clocks and speed-shifting (which seems to be a feature of quite > a few copy protection schemes). The FDI format (google "Disk2FDI") is open and complete, and there's a few emulators supporting it (WinUAE, others that are also non-Amiga). Doesn't require a catweasel either. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 16 18:48:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:48:36 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> References: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <46EDC0D4.8040307@jetnet.ab.ca> Seth Morabito wrote: > Hi folks, > > Can anyone help identify the keyboard in these photos? (apart from the > obvious, that it's made by Stackpole and has a part number of 86-90-0048 ;) > > http://www.loomcom.com/junk/stackpole1.jpg > http://www.loomcom.com/junk/stackpole2.jpg > > I picked it up for fifty cents at a swap meet in the hopes that it might > be an ASCII keyboard that I could use in an Apple I replica, but given > that it has a 40-pin DIP socket, it's clearly not (it was very early in > the morning, what can I say). It has a five-pin power header on the top > left, two red LED indicators, the aforementioned 40-pin DIP socket, and > only one IC, an SN7414N, so it's obviously not doing much logic. Well it is a nice keyboard ... better built than todays 39 cent keyboards. You could be missing the keyboard encoder chip ( the 40 pin socket). But that still leaves where do you get output from. > -Seth > From trag at io.com Sun Sep 16 18:49:46 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:49:46 -0500 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 06:57:40 -0700 >From: dwight elvey > A carbon arc would work as well but I've not seen these >since they've stopped using these in search lights. >Dwight Back in elementary school one of the library books had interesting projects in it. One project was to remove the carbon rods from four 'D' cells. They're about 1/4" - 3/8" in diameter and run the length of the cell. It's a bit of a trick to extract them without breaking them. Once you have four carbon rods, suspend two in a jar of salt water. Grip the other two, each with its own wooden clothes pin (the spring type, not the slot type). Now steal a heavy duty electrical cord from something like Mommy's clothes iron. Attach one lead of the cord to one of the carbon rods in the jar of salt water. Connect the other lead to one of the carbon rods held by a clothes pin. Now use a spare length of heavy wire to connect the remaining two carbon rods together. Plug the cord into the wall. Now carefully touch the tips of the two clothes pin carbon rods together and then slowly draw them apart. TADA! Carbon arc. Vary the salt content in the jar to adjust the power. I don't recall the instructions saying anything about not looking directly at the arc. Perhaps this method doesn't generate enough UV to be useful/harmful? I spent a fair bit of time staring at the thing. Thirty-five years later I haven't noticed any vision impairment, but maybe I was young enough for my retina to recover. It was quite the attention getter at the ES science fair. I suspect books in grade schools don't contain cool/dangerous projects like this any more. I only electrocuted myself once or twice by touching the live bits of the contraption... Jeff Walther From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 16 18:58:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:58:52 -0600 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46EDC33C.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> Jeff Walther wrote: > Back in elementary school one of the library books had interesting > projects in it. One project was to remove the carbon rods from four > 'D' cells. They're about 1/4" - 3/8" in diameter and run the length of > the cell. It's a bit of a trick to extract them without breaking them. No talk like this or soon the Safety Police will be knocking at your door looking for D-cell's. > Jeff Walther From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 16 19:01:46 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:01:46 -0400 Subject: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? Message-ID: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> This request is in respect of support for 20 year old DEC computer software and hardware, specifically for running RT-11 on PDP-11 hardware. So I hope it can be considered to be on topic I am using a newsgroups server that allows free read only access, but once or twice a year, I would like to reply. The newsgroups that are moderated allow me to send an e-mail directly to the moderator who then posts the e-mail to that newsgroup. I would like to post to vmsnet.pdp-11 and alt.sys.pdp11 - can anyone suggest a server that is available? By the way, I only use Netscape under Windows 98SE since other browsers don't seem to offer the same flexibility in saving incoming and outgoing e-mails. If either of these two newsgroups allow an e-mail to be sent to a moderator to then have that e-mail posted to the newsgroup, I would appreciate the e-mail address. I have heard that google allows posts to newsgroups, but the interface is so impossible to use as compared with Netscape that I have not even tried. Any suggestions would be appreciated! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 16 19:03:03 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:03:03 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <46EDC0D4.8040307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> <46EDC0D4.8040307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46EDC437.6010500@philpem.me.uk> woodelf wrote: > But that still leaves where do you get output from. In the second picture, top left corner of the PCB, there's a Molex KK-type connector. Looks to be a five pin right-angle type, most likely 0.1in (1/10in) pitch. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 16 19:27:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:27:13 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <46EDC437.6010500@philpem.me.uk> References: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> <46EDC0D4.8040307@jetnet.ab.ca> <46EDC437.6010500@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46EDC9E1.1060803@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > In the second picture, top left corner of the PCB, there's a Molex > KK-type connector. Looks to be a five pin right-angle type, most likely > 0.1in (1/10in) pitch. But I don't have the keyboard or even a Datasheet on a keyboard encoder chip. Offhand I guess that is TTL serial at some fixed buad rate. Ben alias woodelf From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 19:56:26 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:56:26 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> References: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> Message-ID: > Then let's go a step further. When/where did the first internetworking > gear come onto the market? Not multi-protocol routing, just routing in > general: segmented networks with nodes that moved traffic towards remote > nodes on the behalf of local ones. Ask Western Union and Kleinschmidt. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 21:21:44 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46ED5B39.6006.14ACF5CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <648083.69284.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I built my own EPROM eraser quite a while back. It's not hard, and it was a fun afternoon project. It turned out very well. Basically, I used: -A germicidal tube. This was purchased at a PetSmart locally. It is intended for a pond filter to kill bacteria. -A cheap fluorescent light fixture that takes the appropriate bulb (12" T6, IIRC) as the germicidal tube. -A broken microwave oven -A case scavenged from a junk QIC style tape drive -scrap pine board I built a wooden drawer that slid into a simple sealed wooden box and built that into the metal tape drive case. Inside this box, I mounted the light fixture (with it's white diffusion cover removed), and a microswitch that it is closed when the drawer was fitted all the way in. The microwave's control board and display were recycled into a standalone timer, rigged into the light fixture, and the door switch wired in the same way the microwave's door switch was. I replaced the horrid membrane microwave keypad with the keypad sawed off the end of a junked Apple IIe Platinum keyboard. Once I got everything wired up and tested, I swapped in the UV tube (always practice with the tube that came with the fixture - you know, the one that won't burn your skin off) The end result, I have an aluminum box with a wooden drawer in the front, and inside a wooden, sealed box containing the UV light. The tray is a simple flat board on which I can line up as many EPROMs as I want (up to a foot of chips). On the front of my device is a keypad and a display, and I can type in the amount of minutes I want it to run for, and start it - it shuts off when the time runs out, or if I open the drawer. It also doubles as a clock. Very handy. A little cobbled-together looking, but it works very well. -Ian From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 21:34:43 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:34:43 -0700 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes Message-ID: I was happy to find earlier today that while I gave away most of my tubes of chips and other parts about 3 years ago as I wasn't doing anything with chips, I still have a 4 partial tubes of 27256's and 27C256's. IIRC, thankfully I'd thought they might be useful to hang onto. So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute a 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? If so I should have all the pieces I need for the first project with the exception of the EPROM programmer and EPROM eraser. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Sep 16 21:41:32 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:41:32 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? References: <46ECC89E.8050700@mdrconsult.com> <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> <7093EA96-C7A7-4D13-B742-1C4B83B28477@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46EDE95C.7D04328C@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Sep 16, 2007, at 10:02 AM, jim wrote: > > I'd watch that whatever the pins set on is conductive. I think you > > can get some static effects if you don't have conductive materials > > in the thing. I had one that was made in a black plastic bread > > box, and it had conductive foam to park the parts in. > > If you get a unit that isn't an eraser as suggested in other parts > > of the thread that is all I'd watch. Make sure that the other > > units have metal to set the parts on, since a barber shop > > sterilizer may have glass or such, and not metal. > > This is very true. EPROMs store their bits in "floating gates", > which are conductive areas which are totally surrounded by an > insulating material. Exposure to UV light causes that insulating > material to become partially conductive, allowing the charge to drain > from the floating gate...and that charge has to GO somewhere. The gate charge 'goes' to the other side of the gate insulating material, within the chip. The gate charge does not charge the chip relative to the rest of the world, so it does not have to 'leave' the chip (if that is what you are suggesting). From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 21:41:59 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <706248.4681.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > So the question of the minute is this, is it > possible to substitute a > 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? Sure is. The pinout is nearly the same, save for pin 27. On the 128, it's the program voltage pin, but on the 256 it's an address line. When programming your chip, put your data in both banks (i.e., put it in twice - copy your file and cat the two together into one file) and burn that to the chip, being sure to tell your programmer the truth about the chip. Then, when you put it into the circuit, be sure that pin 27 is tied either high or low - not left floating. -Ian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Sep 16 21:41:38 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:41:38 -0300 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes References: Message-ID: <2c2a01c7f8d4$4fa18890$f0fea8c0@alpha> > So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute a > 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? Sure, copy the program 2 times on the 256 or tie pin 27 to ground. Tying pin 27 to ground you'll have just a 128 :o) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 21:55:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:55:12 -0700 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46ED8A20.23144.15642763@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2007 at 19:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute a > 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? For reading, sure. The difference is pin 27--PGM/ (program enable/) in the 128 and A14 in the 256. So program your data into the upper half of the 256 (or just program two copies of it--then it doesn't matter if pin 27 is high or low). Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 16 22:53:31 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 22:53:31 -0500 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200709170258.l8H2w1Xn021845@hosting.monisys.ca> > So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute a > 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? IIRC the difference between a 27256 and a 27128 is that 128 puts VPP on pin 1 - this is normally held at +5V for read applications. The 256 puts A14 on pin 1. So a 256 will usually work as a 128 (reading - programming is different) however you will most likely have to program your code into the TOP half of the 27256. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 22:03:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:03:25 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu>, Message-ID: <46ED8C0D.14317.156BAF51@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2007 at 20:56, William Donzelli wrote: > > Then let's go a step further. When/where did the first internetworking > > gear come onto the market? Not multi-protocol routing, just routing in > > general: segmented networks with nodes that moved traffic towards remote > > nodes on the behalf of local ones. > > Ask Western Union and Kleinschmidt. Or perhaps earlier, when telegraph operators simply retransmitted the copy. If "unattented" is the operative answer, then Edison in 1864 with his "repeating telegraph". If it's not electrical, how about semaphores, smoke signals, flags, laterns, drums, whistles, riders and runners? Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 16 23:00:18 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:00:18 -0500 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: <200709170258.l8H2w1Xn021845@hosting.monisys.ca> References: Message-ID: <200709170304.l8H34nuh023191@hosting.monisys.ca> > > So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute a > > 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? > > IIRC the difference between a 27256 and a 27128 is that 128 puts VPP > on pin 1 - this is normally held at +5V for read applications. The > 256 puts A14 on pin 1. > > So a 256 will usually work as a 128 (reading - programming is > different) however you will most likely have to program your > code into the TOP half of the 27256. Dave you idiot! - that the RAM pinouts you were thinking about. Yes, as others have noted, Pin 27 is A14 of 27256 and -PGM on a 128. Rest was correct - normally tied high for read applications, so your code will be read from the top half. Mirroring in both halfs is always safe, or do what I do and put a jumper on the extra address pin - lets you have two selectable ROMS (nor application and a debugger in my case usually). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 22:09:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:09:14 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu>, Message-ID: <46ED8D6A.17727.15710241@cclist.sydex.com> I forgot pigeons. Here's a good source: http://labit501.upct.es/ips/libros/TEHODN/toc.html Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Sep 16 22:16:42 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> References: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <200709170319.XAA02034@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Then let's go a step further. When/where did the first > internetworking gear come onto the market? Not multi-protocol > routing, just routing in general: segmented networks with nodes that > moved traffic towards remote nodes on the behalf of local ones. My first reaction was "doesn't UUCP fit?", as someone else alluded to. But really, doesn't the postal system fit, with traffic being mail and nodes being sorting offices? Or, for that matter, any large shipping concern, such as the Dutch, the Spanish, the English, at suitable points in history? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Sep 16 22:22:16 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200709170331.XAA02149@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...]. TADA! Carbon arc. > I don't recall the instructions saying anything about not looking > directly at the arc. Perhaps this method doesn't generate enough UV > to be useful/harmful? Maybe, but it seems dubious to me. Perhaps it depends on how much power is being run through the arc. But I know it is *not* safe to look at an arc-welding arc without UV protection; my father told of a time when, in a pinch, he arc-welded using many sunglasses to cut the light down - but they didn't cut the UV down enough, and he sunburned his eyes rather badly. He compared it to living with a handful of sand in each eye. For a week. (Since then when he's had to weld without a proper welding filter, he's lined it up and then just kept his eyes closed while the arc is live, trusting to his manual dexterity and experience to keep the weld where it belongs.) After hearing that, I've been rather timid around electrical arcs more vigorous than what you get out of a car spark coil. I'll even look away when I see welding across the street on a construction site, even though I know perfectly well inverse square drops it to something safe. Plasma is plasma, and the light is going to have a corresponding spectrum. But there's only as much power coming out as goes in. Without a real measurement, though, I'd be inclined to err on the side of caution. Perhaps that's just because I value my sight so much. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 23:00:16 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:00:16 -0700 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: <200709170304.l8H34nuh023191@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709170304.l8H34nuh023191@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: At 11:00 PM -0500 9/16/07, Dave Dunfield wrote: >Mirroring in both halfs is always safe, or do what I do >and put a jumper on the extra address pin - lets you have >two selectable ROMS (nor application and a debugger in >my case usually). This is actually my end target, though I'll be using switches rather than jumpers to select the version I want. I'll have to get the datasheets and pay close attention to the pinouts when building the adapters for the ones that are supposed to use the 27128. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 16 23:11:40 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:11:40 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:49:46 -0500> To: cctech at classiccmp.org> From: trag at io.com> ---snip---> Now carefully touch the tips of the two clothes pin carbon rods > together and then slowly draw them apart. TADA! Carbon arc.> > Vary the salt content in the jar to adjust the power.> > I don't recall the instructions saying anything about not looking > directly at the arc. Perhaps this method doesn't generate enough > UV to be useful/harmful? I spent a fair bit of time staring at the > thing. Thirty-five years later I haven't noticed any vision > impairment, but maybe I was young enough for my retina to recover.> > It was quite the attention getter at the ES science fair. I suspect > books in grade schools don't contain cool/dangerous projects like > this any more. I only electrocuted myself once or twice by > touching the live bits of the contraption...> > Jeff Walther The light from these arcs would have a lot of UV. The UV just depends on the temperature of the arc. The mercury vapor lamp has peeks in its spectrum in the UV. I is different than an arc. Arcs are just real hot. I suspect that for any of there projects, they recommend adult supervision. The only problem with that is that more adults don't have a clue. You can get a sun burn from arc welding as well. I was about 5 feet away and watching a friend do some welding for me. All I had was goggles and not a full face shield. I looked funny for about 2 weeks. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf?. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 16 23:29:51 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:29:51 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com> > This is very true. EPROMs store their bits in "floating gates", > which are conductive areas which are totally surrounded by an > insulating material. Exposure to UV light causes that insulating > material to become partially conductive, allowing the charge to drain > from the floating gate...and that charge has to GO somewhere. Hi The charge is really small. Once it is connected to the rest of the chip, it is discharged enough. You don't need to pass the charge to the outside. I have small eraser that doesn't even have uniform contact and it erases just fine. In any case, the gate is like a capacitor. You put a charge on one side and an equal but opposite charge will exist on the other side. When the leads are connected together, there is rarely any static charge left. This is because the ability to hold charge is related to the capacitance. The capacitance of an object to the rest of the world is small but across the plates it is orders of magnitude larger. The same is true for the floating gate. The problem is that you are thinking of the charge on the gate as though it were completely isolated from the rest of the world. This isn't true or it would be useless to control current in the transistor. It has to have a relatively large capacitance to transistor. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Capture your memories in an online journal! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 17 00:32:35 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:32:35 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <46EDC9E1.1060803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> <46EDC0D4.8040307@jetnet.ab.ca> <46EDC437.6010500@philpem.me.uk> <46EDC9E1.1060803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46EE1173.7090109@philpem.me.uk> woodelf wrote: > But I don't have the keyboard or even a Datasheet on a keyboard > encoder chip. Offhand I guess that is TTL serial at some fixed > buad rate. Ah. Well, in that case, I'd trace the matrix out and build up a circuit for it, then figure out where on the 40-pin socket it leads and build up an adapter to fit a microcontroller (probably an 8051 - that's probably what the board was designed for, or its close relative the 8048) in there. After that I'd cook up some keyboard scanning code and have a play. It's a fair bit of work though... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Sep 17 00:37:12 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 22:37:12 -0700 Subject: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> References: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46EE1288.7030603@msm.umr.edu> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I have heard that google allows posts to newsgroups, but the interface > is so impossible to use as compared with Netscape that I have not > even tried. Google will let you reply to usenet postings if you sign in. That becomes visible to the internet, but you can create an account for that purpose and post using it. I went to alt.test w/o any problem there. Only problem I saw as the above requirement to post an email address, so use it with care. The interface was quite simple and simpler than posting thru a news reader. This probably is off topic, so please follow up to me via email, if any further discussion is required. A lot of documentation and information gets posted on alt.binaries.ebook.technical, which makes it somewhat on topic, though a lot of that content is reflected from Bitsavers or other listmembers sites. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 17 01:00:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:00:49 -0400 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DBDAABA-2BAD-4040-9181-933DF3619718@neurotica.com> On Sep 16, 2007, at 10:34 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I was happy to find earlier today that while I gave away most of my > tubes of chips and other parts about 3 years ago as I wasn't doing > anything with chips, I still have a 4 partial tubes of 27256's and > 27C256's. IIRC, thankfully I'd thought they might be useful to > hang onto. > > So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute > a 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? This may help: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/eprom.png I don't recall where I got it, but it has been *extremely* handy. Whoever drew it had a damn good idea there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 01:14:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:14:01 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> References: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <46EDB8B9.29064.161A297F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2007 at 16:16, Seth Morabito wrote: > Can anyone help identify the keyboard in these photos? (apart from > the obvious, that it's made by Stackpole and has a part number of > 86-90-0048 ;) I can't identify what equipment this went to; Stackpole made a LOT of different keyboards for a LOT of different manufacturers. Unless someone happens to recognize the keyboard layout from a piece of equipment they already have, that's as close as you're going to get. On the other hand, the fact that the manufacturer used a socket for the controller points to a programmable item; if this was a salvage item, it may have even been a reprogrammable item. An 87C51 might be a good start. A shot of the underside around the socket, including the connections to the power/signal header might cinch the guess. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 17 01:30:07 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:30:07 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <46EDB8B9.29064.161A297F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> <46EDB8B9.29064.161A297F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46EE1EEF.6040206@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can't identify what equipment this went to; Stackpole made a LOT of > different keyboards for a LOT of different manufacturers. Unless > someone happens to recognize the keyboard layout from a piece of > equipment they already have, that's as close as you're going to get. Well a quick google did not find any data on a keyboard encoder chip. Now who has the databooks on that. Since it looks like a ASCII keyboard rather than a PC keyboard I would put my bet on a encoder chip. > On the other hand, the fact that the manufacturer used a socket for > the controller points to a programmable item; if this was a salvage > item, it may have even been a reprogrammable item. An 87C51 might be > a good start. A shot of the underside around the socket, including > the connections to the power/signal header might cinch the guess. Good luck. > Cheers, > Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 14 08:16:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:16:36 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JOD004430V3IRK4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:59:59 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 13 Sep 2007 at 17:36, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> > And I'd also disqualify device-sharing, such as a MAC (multiple >> > access controller) between an I/O device and two computers. Those go >> > WAY back... >> >> I'm not familiar with such stuff. > >Ah, showing my age. "Back in the day" you might have two otherwise >independent mainframes and, say, two printers. To have a system do >nothing but wait for a print job to finish while only one of the >printers was busy is a huge waste of resources. A card punch might >be an infrequenly used piece of equipment, so why have two? Or a >printer could be offline for maintenance, but why take the machine it >was attached to down also? Or, instead of having two banks of 8 tape >drives for two machines, why not whittle that down to, say 12, and >allow the drives to be shared? IIRC, most vendors offered some sort >of a MAC facility, even if it was a QSE. CDC certainly did. Most MAC setups again were master/slave. An example was BOCES/LYRICs PDP-10/TOPS-10 timeshare system that had a PDP-8I as the comms frontend (switch). The PDP-8 served as an intelligent peripheral but it's dectapes were not available to the 10. >Of course, direct coupling of computers was also done, either via a >special I/O device or even shared bulk core. But we never called >that "networking". Mostly because it was a clear master slave lashup. Generally/loosely networking implied more than two machines and a more general ability to transfer/communicate as needed be it files, shared devices or some combination of both with any machine being able to initiate and communicate as a peer to others that could do same or similar. Allison From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Sep 14 14:06:09 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:06:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: EPROM programmer/readers In-Reply-To: <200709131726.37453.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200709131726.37453.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3368.217.225.98.247.1189796769.squirrel@217.225.98.247> Roy J. Tellason said: > On Thursday 13 September 2007 01:42, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> After putting it off for many, many years, I've decided to break down >> and do it. I'm in the market for a device to read and program >> EPROM's such as would be found in DEC or Commodore 64 hardware. > > The c64 never used EPROMs, only masked ROMs. Though there were one or > two > aftermarket devices that would use 'em, typically with an adapter. At least I once had a 1541 shortly after it was released in Germany that had EPROMs in it; too bad I didn't keep it. No, it was NOT one of the upgraded drives with SpeedDos or other accelerators, and the label on the UV window had the well-known C= on it. -- Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 14 14:37:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:37:18 -0400 Subject: EPROM Question Message-ID: <0JOD00DBJIHIK6UC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: EPROM Question > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I've been trying to google up an answer, but have had no luck. What is the >difference between a 27256 and a 27C256 EPROM? Can a 27C256 EPROM be >substituted for a 27256? > >Zane Yes, gernerally. If your programming it limit Vpp to 12.5V otherwise the same. Allison From shieldsm at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 17:55:18 2007 From: shieldsm at gmail.com (Mike Shields) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:55:18 -0400 Subject: MicronEye camera software Message-ID: <13135db40709141555idc95548o87c60ead0af2a18a@mail.gmail.com> I just picked up a MicronEye camera "for IBM PC" - it came with everything except manuals and software. "Everything" means: The camera itself (with a ribbon cable out) MicronEye controller box of some sort, ribbon input and RJ12 output 8-bit ISA paddle with RJ12 input. A cardboard washer taped to a piece of paper labeled "CLOSE-UP RING" (and original box to boot!) The ISA paddle has an AMI S68B50P IC (a serial interface I believe) and some 74LS parts to glue it to the ISA bus. This leads me to believe that the camera controller box itself speaks serial to the ISA board. I know from some googling that this camera was often featured connected to early Macintoshes, and the box it came in indicates it was available with interfaces to Apple II, TI, TRS-80 CC, Mac, and IBM PC. I guess I'm looking for any info on how I might obtain software for it - really any software for any of the platforms would be helpful -- or even just pointers as to how it might be programmed against. As well, I might be interested in adapting it to hook up to a Mac SE or the like, as working with pictures (especially the black-and-white pictures I believe the camera is capable of producing) would be a bit more natural on the Mac SE than on an age-appropriate PC. There were some references to this device in the cctalk archives - it seems others out there have these things. It also seemed like there were some kits or third party producers of cameras based on the Micron ram chip, but this is an "official" Micron product. Well, thanks for any pointers! Mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 14 08:06:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:06:18 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JOD007Q40DYOQ2B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:33:33 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wednesday 12 September 2007 07:43, Allison wrote: >> Mine started when I needed to get stuff from the various CP/M systems >> that even when they had disks were incompatable hard sector to soft >> or 8 and 5.25. I started with serial peer to peer as in pipmodem and >> similar. > >Pipmodem? That's a new one on me, though the name is pretty suggestive. PIP has an area that the user can modify as an aux device outside those in the bios (or part of the bios). Try doing a google on it. > >> Later I did a two system resource sharing that grew to allow up to a >> potential 256 systems. In '82 the whole thing peaked with a multiprocessor >> S100 crate with intercommunications via pooled memory. > >How was that handled in the hardware, particularly with regard to contention >for access? I vaguely recall running across some multiport memory chips, >but their capacity wasn't anywhere near what was currently in use that didn't >have that feature. Real simple the pooled memory was often just a block of ram in common space and each cpu had it's comminications area and a doorbell register to signal that it needs to check it's pool. The protocal was A writes to Bs com area, A hits Bs doorbell, A waits for doorbell and goes back to check As comm area. Since S100 bus arbitration allowed only one bus master and none of the areas overlapped it was very robust. It relied on bus mastering, a clear protocal and the "doobell register" to do attention requested signaling and keeps the message block from read part way while being written. By assigning buffers that do not overlap it made sure one cpu didn't corrupt anthers message. However for systems without bus master arbitation other schemes existed too. S100 IEE696 had bus master arbitration and Compupro and others used that scheme. It was by no means the only way. For example Ampro (AmproLB+) used the SCSI/sasi bus for it's communications between CPUs. Allison From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Sep 15 01:19:37 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:19:37 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAAF@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Surely any publisher of an article past or present and where software is an important part of the design and who does not print a listing is only doing half the job. If they are doing this to sell a few preprogrammed chips then shame on them. For old designs we may come across and wish to restore and are prevented by this practice lets have a 'Wall of Shame' to identify those people who left us a legacy like that. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 14 September 2007 20:41 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? > > On Thursday 13 September 2007 01:30:39 Ensor wrote: > > > I first came across this myself in the mid-90s. I'd picked up a copy > > of "Elektor" for the first time in almost 10 years and was surprised > > that they didn't provide any listings of any form for the projects > > based around PICs, you had to send away for pre-programmed parts. > > That's about when I remember seeing it happen; also with an article in > (possibly) PE&EE about building a Z80-based SBC that ran Forth. Actually, Elektor have been rather better about this recently, and in a lot of cases the _source_ code for the microcontroller firmware is available as a free download from their web site. Alas, in some cases (often for the projects I am most interested in :-(), this is not the case, often becasue the author gets a royalty from each pre-programmed chip sold. > > These days when you can build a simple PIC or ATMEL programmer from a > couple of components, or buy an EPROM programmer off eBay for about a > tenner, there's not really an excuse. I suspect the reason (not an excuse...) was that they made money selling pre-programmed chips. Certainly when you boughht the pre-programmed chip, it came copy-protected. > > Ob. on-topic: does anyone remember the Forth SBC article I was talking > about, and does a copy of it exist online anywhere? No, and as a Forth (and stack based languages in general) lover, I would be interested. -tony From trasz at FreeBSD.org Sat Sep 15 15:03:53 2007 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (Edward Tomasz Napierala) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:03:53 +0200 Subject: Connecting SGI GDM-20E21 to SPARCstation 2. In-Reply-To: <20070829171537.2ae89ecc@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <20070829110622.GA19178@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> <20070829171537.2ae89ecc@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <20070915200353.GA73430@pin.if.uz.zgora.pl> On 0829T1715, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > I have the following: SPARCstation 2 with GX card (1M mappable, rev > > 7), SGI GDM-20E21 monitor (Trinitron, OEM from Sony) and 13w3 cable. > > Obviously they don't work together - the pinouts are said to be > > slightly different in SGI and Sun. Now, is there any easy way - cut > > some wires, connect the others - to make this work? > Connect the C-Sync signal from the Sun via an 330 Ohm resistor to the > green signal. This will generate Sync-On-Green. If you are familar with > a soldering iron you can solder the resistor on the bottom side of the > GX PCB directely at the connector. Maybe you have to break the 10 extra > pins in the 13W3 cabe, because the SGI monitor may ground the pin that > caries the C-Sync signal. The pinout for the coaxial RGB-Pins is the > same on Sun, SGI und IBM. Works beautifully, thanks ;-) (Photos here: http://pin.if.uz.zgora.pl/~trasz/sun+sgi/) -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From toby at coreware.co.uk Sat Sep 15 15:01:10 2007 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 21:01:10 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 Message-ID: Hi, Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs here: http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does anyone have any background information on them? Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. Machines is fantastic condition having been stored for last 30 years. Comes with 2 x RK07s (in floor standing cabs) and a tape drive. Only downside is I'm having to hire a crane to remove the machine (as its on 1st floor). Any advice on moving RK07 drives? Do I need to lock heads? Many thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 21:15:46 2007 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 20:15:46 -0600 Subject: DG Nova 820 for trade Message-ID: <2645f9870709151915v510fa0d2gf4f3421e3e8b1e91@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I recently acquired a Vax-11/750, and I need to free up some space. I have a Data General Nova 820 (circa 1973) and a Diablo 30 Disk drive to trade. I do not have any cables, disk packs, documentation, etc. for the equipment. I have not tried to get the machine going. The machine is as-is, where is, in Langdon Alberta Canada (10 miles east of Calgary Alberta). I estimate the weight of the equipment to be 100 pounds or so. The Nova 820 contains the following cards: 107-000088-13 CPU1 107-000194-01 CPU2 107-000030-03 BASIC 107-000137-04 8K Memory 107-000116-07 Quad Multiplexor 107-000137-04 8K Memory 107-000137-04 8K Memory 107-000107-04 Logic Interface 107-000063-06 Basic I/O Control 107-000094-03 Disk Pack Control I am looking to trade the DG equipment for a reasonably powerful DEC/Compaq/HP Alpha server which is capable of running the latest OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX operating systems and which has a sufficiently large quantity of memory and disk space. If interested, contact me offlist at ia35mv5i4rtu5al at gmail.com <- remove all numbers from email address I can send photos upon request. Cheers! --barrym From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 16 13:33:24 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 14:33:24 -0400 Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com Message-ID: <0JOH00BW44UY8LZ2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Kaypro movcpm.com > From: dwight elvey > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:49:28 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Hi > My understanding of movcpm.com is that it needs to be the >exact one that comes with that version. I beleive it has >tables of addresses to replace. Correct. there is a serial number thats easy to take care of but the real problem is that MOVCPM has to be valid for the BIOS in use. Reason is that MOVCPM is a relocator that operates by adjusting the various Jumps and Calls in the code and if the BIOS and MOVCPM do not match that reloc will make hash of the BIOS. > If you have ROMs, it is unlikely that it is a 64K CPM. One >would need to allow some space for the ROMs. It may already >be a 62K. Likely less for a lot of reasons. Roms can be mapped out of the ram map or transient. I'd bet more like 56K is the case. > You might try moving to something you know is safe like >32K. Good idea and then if you sysgen that code to a disk use a fresh disk to avoid crunching a working one. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 16 13:37:05 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 14:37:05 -0400 Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com Message-ID: <0JOH00EW1513GRY6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Kaypro movcpm.com > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:50:08 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 15 Sep 2007 at 6:49, dwight elvey wrote: > >> My understanding of movcpm.com is that it needs to be the >> exact one that comes with that version. I beleive it has >> tables of addresses to replace. > >Just so. Since MOVCPM contains a copy of CP/M itself, said copy also >contains a serial number, which must match the one of the system >you're executing MOVCPM on. If you've got a debugger, the point >where the check is made is easy to find and disable, however. I don't know about a copy of CP/M but it does ahve a table of all the addresses inside CP/M (CCP, BDOS and BIOS)that get relocated. If the system and MOVCPM are from differnt systems (say kayII and a 4/84) it's very likely the BIOS varies enough that the BIOS will get mashed. The serial numbmer (besides copyright) was to keep the two matched or prevent a mess. >Part of DRI's OEM agreement was that each copy of CP/M had to be >serialized. There is that but it's a seperate issue. Allison >Cheers, >Chuck From danieldsnyder at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 13:52:13 2007 From: danieldsnyder at gmail.com (dsnyder) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 14:52:13 -0400 Subject: DEC Alphaserver 1000A simm choices Message-ID: I seem to recall somewhere in cctech archives having read a discussion about Alphaserver 1000A simm configuration choices. Maybe it was in a newsgroup.. The question is can I use 128M simms in a 1000A? I recall someone tried this size in a Alphastation 250 and all simms were recognised. I know 64M simms work as the SOC shows kits containing this size were available. I realize the simms are the 36 bit type. I currently use a mixture of 32M and 64M in the various banks in my 1000 and 1000A, the simms are a mixture of original DEC and HP simms. I did search the cctech archives and nothing returned. Dan Snyder From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 16 17:38:29 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:38:29 -0400 Subject: Early networking (was Re: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever) Message-ID: <0JOH001GLG7CYVX4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Early networking (was Re: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:34:47 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/16/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 16 Sep 2007 at 13:10, ajones wrote: >> >> > Then let's go a step further. When/where did the first internetworking >> > gear come onto the market? Not multi-protocol routing, just routing in >> > general: segmented networks with nodes that moved traffic towards remote >> > nodes on the behalf of local ones. >> >> Does Usenet UUCP-type networking count? > >The routing in classic UUCP was manually done, but I would say it >counts, but then I used UUCP on a nearly daily basis from about 1985 - >1996, so I could be biased. I was a digit from '83 to 93 and was used to DECnet PhaseIV which had adaptive routing. Phase III did not. So going from a phase III node (usually PDP-11) generally required specifying the path to the first routing node. IP networking was later in my expereicnce and had it's own flavor. To answer the question, Networking gear was already around by 1980 and likely well before that. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 16 18:56:22 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:56:22 -0400 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? Message-ID: <0JOH00ICPJT4BH17@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Help identifying a keyboard? > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:48:36 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Seth Morabito wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> Can anyone help identify the keyboard in these photos? (apart from the >> obvious, that it's made by Stackpole and has a part number of 86-90-0048 ;) >> >> http://www.loomcom.com/junk/stackpole1.jpg >> http://www.loomcom.com/junk/stackpole2.jpg >> >> I picked it up for fifty cents at a swap meet in the hopes that it might >> be an ASCII keyboard that I could use in an Apple I replica, but given >> that it has a 40-pin DIP socket, it's clearly not (it was very early in >> the morning, what can I say). It has a five-pin power header on the top >> left, two red LED indicators, the aforementioned 40-pin DIP socket, and >> only one IC, an SN7414N, so it's obviously not doing much logic. >Well it is a nice keyboard ... better built than todays 39 cent keyboards. >You could be missing the keyboard encoder chip ( the 40 pin socket). >But that still leaves where do you get output from. > >> -Seth >> Sounds like similar to a keyboard I have but the chip is an 8048 not a keyboard encoder. The data was output on the 5pin connector in serial format. The 8048 micro did the key scanning and serial IO. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 16 22:29:44 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:29:44 -0400 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes Message-ID: <0JOH00A3NTPJZCH0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:34:43 -0700 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > >I was happy to find earlier today that while I gave away most of my >tubes of chips and other parts about 3 years ago as I wasn't doing >anything with chips, I still have a 4 partial tubes of 27256's and >27C256's. IIRC, thankfully I'd thought they might be useful to hang >onto. > >So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute a >27C256 for a smaller 27C128? Yes, with the exception that it's larger and has one more address pin. Allison From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 17 01:26:11 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:26:11 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAB1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Lots of systems got packaged in those corporate cabs. You imply that its just one Cab. Is that so? The only real way to tell is to get the model numbers off of the back's of the units inside. Where is this system located? A crane sounds bit much. You might want to check under the cabinet for wheels. Has it really been there since 1977? If so there are a lot things that degrade with time. Do not under any circumstances turn it on. All of the power supplies will need overhauling and the capacitors replaced / reformed. If you have looked inside the cab what did you see? If it dates to 1977 then it is in the time frame when I worked at DEC. A bit more detail may ring a (very old) bell with me. Rod Smallwood The DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell Sent: 15 September 2007 21:01 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 Hi, Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs here: http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does anyone have any background information on them? Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. Machines is fantastic condition having been stored for last 30 years. Comes with 2 x RK07s (in floor standing cabs) and a tape drive. Only downside is I'm having to hire a crane to remove the machine (as its on 1st floor). Any advice on moving RK07 drives? Do I need to lock heads? Many thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Sep 17 01:57:33 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:57:33 +0100 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1190012253.9105.3.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-09-16 at 21:11 -0700, dwight elvey wrote: > You can get a sun burn from arc welding as well. I was > about 5 feet away and watching a friend do some welding > for me. All I had was goggles and not a full face shield. I got a nice tan from welding up some bits on a car once. I normally don't tan or sunburn at all. Of course, there probably isn't a lot of UV in the sun in these latitudes - wherever you are in Britain, you're at least as far north as the southern tip of Alaska... Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 02:07:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:07:55 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <46EE1EEF.6040206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com>, <46EDB8B9.29064.161A297F@cclist.sydex.com>, <46EE1EEF.6040206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46EDC55B.15779.164B841C@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2007 at 0:30, woodelf wrote: > Well a quick google did not find any data on a keyboard encoder > chip. Now who has the databooks on that. Since it looks like a > ASCII keyboard rather than a PC keyboard I would put my bet on > a encoder chip. Have a look at September, 1980 Byte. Serial-output keyboard using the National MM57499 keyboard encoder. Anyone got a datasheet on this beast? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 02:24:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:24:58 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <0JOD004430V3IRK4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JOD004430V3IRK4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46EDC95A.28187.165B1E4A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2007 at 9:16, Allison wrote: > Most MAC setups again were master/slave. An example was BOCES/LYRICs > PDP-10/TOPS-10 timeshare system that had a PDP-8I as the comms frontend > (switch). The PDP-8 served as an intelligent peripheral but it's > dectapes were not available to the 10. Not at all. CDC 6681 or 6684 DCCs could be equipped with a MAC to control the 3000-series peripherals. The reservation was a positive interlock accessible from either machine. Very common for sharing printers--the two machines didn't even have to be running the same OS, although it was useful when they did--but they needed some sort of communications mechanism. In TCM, we used shared ECS for this--I think NOS/BE did also. Often one could simply manually function the proper channel through DSD to grab a printer for a bit, before the operator at the next machine looked over and said "Do you have my printer?". Deadstart tapes usually had both printers/tapes etc. in the EST. > Mostly because it was a clear master slave lashup. Generally/loosely > networking implied more than two machines and a more general ability > to transfer/communicate as needed be it files, shared devices or some > combination of both with any machine being able to initiate and > communicate as a peer to others that could do same or similar. The CDC 6682/6683 Satellite coupler was a 6000 series channel-to- channel interace. Mostly used for data transfer between systems, but it was not very common. Easier to do this with ECS. This was WAY before ethernet (1964). Cheers, Chuck > > > Allison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 02:34:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:34:18 -0700 Subject: Kaypro movcpm.com In-Reply-To: <0JOH00EW1513GRY6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JOH00EW1513GRY6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46EDCB8A.25738.1663ACB4@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2007 at 14:37, Allison wrote: > >Part of DRI's OEM agreement was that each copy of CP/M had to be > >serialized. > > There is that but it's a seperate issue. Same difference. MOVCPM checks the serial number and quits if the system S/N doesn't match. Whether or not there was a deeper purpose is immaterial to the original query. It's what's keep MOVCPM from running--and is easily circumvented. Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Sep 17 02:37:59 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:37:59 -0300 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes References: <3DBDAABA-2BAD-4040-9181-933DF3619718@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2ccb01c7f8fd$d7d7b1c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > This may help: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/eprom.png Some more help (recommended): http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/temp/tabeprom.gif All eprom pinouts up to 27C080 (this is the ELNEC rom emulators' table which sits on the help file, converted to a gif. Buy ELNEC products! :D) Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre Souza From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 17 02:51:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:51:41 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAAF@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAAF@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46EE320D.10203@jetnet.ab.ca> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Surely any publisher of an article past or present and where software is > an important part of the design and who does not print a listing is only > doing half the job. If they are doing this to sell a few preprogrammed > chips then shame on them. > > For old designs we may come across and wish to restore and are prevented > by this practice lets have a 'Wall of Shame' to identify those people > who left us a legacy like that. That will be a big wall, since I lump "... continued next month" and you never can find next month. > Rod Smallwood As a side note I remember reading years ago about great (other than next weeks clone) upcoming hardware in BYTE and never hear about it again. Pascal/Modula II engines come to mind. Ben alias woodelf From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Sep 17 03:35:06 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:35:06 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 46, Message 18, PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] References: <200709162148.l8GLmI9S023703@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <012701c7f905$a74ecae0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> Try www.bulgin.co.uk and go for the General Connectors page (http://www.bulgin.co.uk/Products/GenPurpose_Connectors/GenPurpose_Connectors.html) Many type on that page but I think you should see what is described towards the bottm. Mike. > Anyway, the connectors I am thinking of were part of as series. They were > circular, most of them were chassis mouting plugs and cable sockets. The > plug was recessed into the panel, and the socket part fitted into it. > There were 1.5A and 5A versions with 2, 3, or 6 pins. Polaraision was > acheaived by a groove down the side of the socket part and a > corresponding ridge in the recessed plug. In many cases the wire > terminals on the socket part were covered by a simple screw-on cap which > means they're not not approved for use above 50V (since you can unscrew > said cap and get access to live parts without the use of a tool). There > were later mocels of some of the sockets with the cover held on by > screws, AFAIK those are still OK for mains use. > > If you like I can tey to find the part numbers for them. > > -tony > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Sep 17 05:35:49 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:35:49 -0800 Subject: Computer rescue -- Honeywell DDP-116 pictures Message-ID: <46EE5885.4040409@pacbell.net> I've put up some more pictures of the Honeywell DDP-116s from my recent rescue at www.ddp116.org . --Bill From ats at offog.org Mon Sep 17 06:55:29 2007 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:55:29 +0100 Subject: PS/2 Interface In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Sun\, 16 Sep 2007 21\:20\:25 +0100 \(BST\)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Anyway, the connectors I am thinking of were part of as series. They > were circular, most of them were chassis mouting plugs and cable > sockets. Here's an example -- this is the 100V line output on one of the audio amplifiers used in a Rediffusion system: http://offog.org/stuff/bulgin-connectors.jpeg The amplifier uses the three-pin version of the same connector for mains input: http://offog.org/stuff/bulgin-3pin.jpeg They were very common on British equipment in the 1960s and 1970s. (Unfortunately the trip that produced the photos above didn't turn up any old computing kit...) -- Adam Sampson From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 07:40:59 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:40:59 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46ED8C0D.14317.156BAF51@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> <46ED8C0D.14317.156BAF51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Or perhaps earlier, when telegraph operators simply retransmitted the > copy. If "unattented" is the operative answer, then Edison in 1864 > with his "repeating telegraph". > > If it's not electrical, how about semaphores, smoke signals, flags, > laterns, drums, whistles, riders and runners? I should have said "Ma Bell", now that I think of it. Pretty much all of basic concepts of computer networking* can be found in Notes on the Network. All that fancy stuff about routing, least cost methods, network failures, hierarchies, network addressing? All in there from way back. And of course, the telephone network is still the largest. * ARPAnet, for getting the lions share of credit for inventing the computer network, mostly just invented (and implemented) packet switching. -- Will From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Sep 17 07:49:40 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:49:40 -0400 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 Message-ID: <46EE3FA40200003700011BBC@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> > Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to > get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean packed) > with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about 35-40U with > a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs here: > http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does > anyone have any background information on them? > Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no > toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to > these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. Tim. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 07:59:34 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:59:34 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <46ED638C.3070808@bsu.edu> <46ED8C0D.14317.156BAF51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > * ARPAnet, for getting the lions share of credit for inventing the > computer network, mostly just invented (and implemented) packet > switching. Oops, back up...leave out "invented". I forgot there were a few interesting packet switched network before then. Sorry, I am rushed today... -- Will From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 17 08:36:16 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:36:16 -0500 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46EE82D0.6090305@mdrconsult.com> dwight elvey wrote: >> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:49:46 -0500> To: cctech at classiccmp.org> From: trag at io.com> > You can get a sun burn from arc welding as well. I was > about 5 feet away and watching a friend do some welding > for me. All I had was goggles and not a full face shield. > I looked funny for about 2 weeks. When I was in my teens I worked as a fill welder - using high-amp, large-diameter arc welder to reinforce and fill "tacked" assemblies. In most of the welding I did, I might spend 20-30 minutes an hour actually burning rod, but on the fill line it was over 50, and running at *very* high energy levels. I had run out of uniform shirts one day and wore an old long-sleeved dress shirt with a T-shirt under it. When I got home that day, I had heavy sunburn all over my front, except for where the shirt pockets and button-basting had been. For those arc-burned eyes, we always used chilled grated potato compresses. I have no clue why, but it works wonders to soothe the pain. Doc PS - This was all 20 years ago, and there were tape-loop turret lathes nearby, so it's on topic, right? *runs* From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 08:58:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:58:05 -0400 Subject: 4 VAX workstations (no HDs) (St. Louis, MO) In-Reply-To: <46ED87B3.9060008@e-bbes.com> References: <46ED87B3.9060008@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46EE87ED.3090508@gmail.com> e.stiebler wrote: > Richard wrote: >> 3 VAX 4000-100A >> 1 VAX 4000-60 >> > Is anybody out here bidding on it ? > I would be interested in one of the 4000-100a, but not in the whole lot :( I was planning on bidding. Peace... Sridhar From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Sep 17 09:21:50 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:21:50 -0700 Subject: Computer rescue -- Honeywell DDP-116 pictures In-Reply-To: <46EE5885.4040409@pacbell.net> References: <46EE5885.4040409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <46EE8D7E.1010108@msm.umr.edu> William Maddox wrote: > I've put up some more pictures of the Honeywell DDP-116s > from my recent rescue at www.ddp116.org . > > --Bill > > Is the thing you identify as a disk a disk, or a drum? Looks more like a drum. Jim From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 17 10:13:43 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:13:43 -0400 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: <3DBDAABA-2BAD-4040-9181-933DF3619718@neurotica.com> References: <3DBDAABA-2BAD-4040-9181-933DF3619718@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200709171113.43356.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 17 September 2007 02:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 16, 2007, at 10:34 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I was happy to find earlier today that while I gave away most of my > > tubes of chips and other parts about 3 years ago as I wasn't doing > > anything with chips, I still have a 4 partial tubes of 27256's and > > 27C256's. IIRC, thankfully I'd thought they might be useful to > > hang onto. > > > > So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute > > a 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? > > This may help: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/eprom.png > > I don't recall where I got it, but it has been *extremely* handy. > Whoever drew it had a damn good idea there. > > -Dave Yes indeed! The closest I came to that was drawing the pinouts of a bunch of them on the same page, along with some bytewide RAM parts... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 17 11:40:27 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:40:27 -0600 Subject: 4 VAX workstations (no HDs) (St. Louis, MO) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:36:06 -0500. <51ea77730709161536g35a052e0rcab6f50df01d6ddd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730709161536g35a052e0rcab6f50df01d6ddd at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > I've got them on my watch list. Never done a bid with DoveBid - are > they as fun to deal with as GovLiq? Dovebid is a commercial place, not a part of the government, so they are more competent. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 17 11:24:17 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:24:17 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:40:59 EDT." Message-ID: <200709171624.l8HGOHhF030629@mwave.heeltoe.com> "William Donzelli" wrote: > >* ARPAnet, for getting the lions share of credit for inventing the >computer network, mostly just invented (and implemented) packet >switching. This is off topic, and we should stop, but I don't think this accurate. Technically the phone system is circuit switched. The ARPAnet did pioneer the notion of concatenated networks, or a "catanet" (if I recall correctly) which was dynamically reconfigurable. The original idea was to create a network which would survive a nuclear blast, which the phone system would not, at least not it the sense of being dynamically reconfigurable. These days the internet is pretty statically routed, since BGP setup is, well, more of an art than a science and peering is more political than technical. I think hop by hop routing with dynamic reconfiguration was bit of an innovation. -brad From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 11:58:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:58:09 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46EE320D.10203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAAF@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, <46EE320D.10203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46EE4FB1.303.1867E7F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2007 at 1:51, woodelf wrote: > That will be a big wall, since I lump "... continued next month" and > you never can find next month. > > As a side note I remember reading years ago about great (other than next > weeks clone) upcoming hardware in BYTE and never hear about it again. > Pascal/Modula II engines come to mind. The chips certainly existed, but I never saw them deployed as anything other than a curiosity. On a related issue, there were several CD collections put out with code and often article text. I've got a set here simply called "Source code" and another that excised the more interesting articles and code from a dozen or two publications and delivered it as a quarterly summary. I never cracked any of the things past a quick browse--and most of the time, I forget that I even have them. DDJ also issues compendium CDs; I don't know if Byte ever did. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 17 12:18:58 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:18:58 -0400 Subject: Computer rescue -- Honeywell DDP-116 pictures In-Reply-To: <46EE5885.4040409@pacbell.net> References: <46EE5885.4040409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <80397C33-A2DB-4E7D-B647-B8D6424AEDC0@neurotica.com> On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:35 AM, William Maddox wrote: > I've put up some more pictures of the Honeywell DDP-116s > from my recent rescue at www.ddp116.org . Gorgeous!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 17 12:22:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:22:17 -0600 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46EE82D0.6090305@mdrconsult.com> References: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46EE82D0.6090305@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <46EEB7C9.6090905@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc Shipley wrote: > PS - This was all 20 years ago, and there were tape-loop turret lathes > nearby, so it's on topic, right? Just what is a tape-loop turret lathe? > *runs* Thows a wet tribble at you. :) From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 17 13:10:53 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:10:53 -0600 Subject: DEC vr299 Message-ID: <46EEC32D.5090805@e-bbes.com> working, for pick up only, 80433 colorado usa ;-) From gklinger at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 13:20:23 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:20:23 -0400 Subject: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <46EE1288.7030603@msm.umr.edu> References: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> <46EE1288.7030603@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: This thread is off-topic so please forgive my posting this follow-up. I'm doing so in the hope that the information may prove to be of use to more than just the OP. For free read and write access to the Usenet, visit the following: -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 17 13:52:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:52:22 +0100 Subject: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: References: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> <46EE1288.7030603@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46EECCE6.3080809@yahoo.co.uk> Golan Klinger wrote: > This thread is off-topic so please forgive my posting this follow-up. It actually got me wondering when apps started really pushing (or forcing) functionality on users outside of their core reason for existing (such as a web browser trying to be an email client, or an email client trying to be a usenet client etc.) I suspect that aspect *is* on topic :-) Netscape circa mid-90's is one of the first culprits I can think of, but doubtless there were others long before then? (Note I'm not talking about small bundled utility apps or functionality which is related to the central purpose of an application - more the cases where something that was recognised as doing one job suddenly branched out and started offering something completely different) [Not a practice that I agree with at all - memory and disk footprint often increases, and stability goes down, all for extra functionality which a separate dedicated app nearly always handles better] From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Sep 17 13:29:59 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:29:59 -0300 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] Message-ID: <01C7F93F.D41EE980@mandr71> -------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:40:49 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] On 15 Sep 2007 at 13:02, M H Stein wrote: > Funny how on the one hand I read the sentiment here that people should be required > to pass a course in advanced computer science before being allowed to plug in a > computer, and then that they should be so simple to hook up that a retarded^H^H^H^H > mentally-challenged blind^H^H^H vision-impaired chimpanzee could do it; > just no pleasing some folks... I dunno, Mike. I'm generally capable of operating most any computer, but my eyesight is terrible (and not getting any better with age). I'd sure as heck would like the assurance that whatever plug I'm sticking into a receptacle at least isn't going to result in "magic smoke" (see my earlier comment on wall wart perversion) even if I didn't quite read the label on the box correctly. ------------Reply: I know exactly what you mean about eyesight, so I probably wasn't very clear... What I meant was that of all the things that *are* dumb like the PC printer connector and Tony's AC plugs "criminally" used for other purposes, the PS/2 mouse & keyboard ambiguity is as harmless as L & R audio connectors. Mind you, IBM didn't "invent" that printer connector; lots of S-100 boxes used DB-25s for RS-232 *and* parallel printers and, what's even worse, they were usually all female; almost makes sense, actually, since there were stock DB-25M<>CEN cables around at the time whereas you usually wound up making your own serial cables anyway. And wasn't a male connector a sort of "standard" for DTE equipment? Nevertheless, since Compaq could use the same port for a mouse or a keyboard, I can't see either why when there are two separate ports they couldn''t be interchangeable. Some modern PCs even have interchangeable audio connectors; you can plug in line in and out either way and it sorts out which is which. And don't talk to me about wall-warts; what's really annoying is when the equipment doesn't state the voltage & polarity. m From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 14:49:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSX in RIO photoset In-Reply-To: <2b9601c7f8aa$72532990$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <167125.47357.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> looked like loads of phun Alexandre. I thought the black MSX 2+ tower was psyk. I like that Sony unit too. In fact I want 1 or more. --- Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Anyone interested in MSX photos? > > Last week we had the MSXRIO fair in Rio de > Janeiro, Brazil. Here you are > the photos: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/12782885 at N04/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/29379227 at N00/sets/72157601958420285/ > > And some videos > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6iQnPltJD4 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T28XCmncSwM > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSbewVne6cI > > Greetings from Brazil, > Alexandre > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 14:54:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:54:01 -0700 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <01C7F93F.D41EE980@mandr71> References: <01C7F93F.D41EE980@mandr71> Message-ID: <46EE78E9.17934.1908EACF@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2007 at 15:29, M H Stein wrote: > What I meant was that of all the things that *are* dumb like the PC printer > connector and Tony's AC plugs "criminally" used for other purposes, the > PS/2 mouse & keyboard ambiguity is as harmless as L & R audio connectors. > > Mind you, IBM didn't "invent" that printer connector; lots of S-100 boxes used > DB-25s for RS-232 *and* parallel printers. When I think about it, the MITS 8800 had connector punchouts for DB25 *only* in the back panel. DB25 seemed to be the lingua franca back then for hobbyist interfaces. If one had an 8" floppy drive, one ran the ribbon cable right through the crack between the back panel and the case cover directly to the controller card(s). No DD50s. > Nevertheless, since Compaq could use the same port for a mouse or a keyboard, > I can't see either why when there are two separate ports they couldn''t be interchangeable. > Some modern PCs even have interchangeable audio connectors; you can plug in > line in and out either way and it sorts out which is which. Indeed. I've owned a few of the "either spot is the right one" systems. Of course, now everyone's supposed to be using USB for all of that stuff, right? ;) Cheers, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 15:12:39 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:12:39 -0400 Subject: Apps with other functions, was: Re: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? Message-ID: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> On 17/09/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Golan Klinger wrote: > It actually got me wondering when apps started really pushing (or forcing) > functionality on users outside of their core reason for existing (such as a > web browser trying to be an email client, or an email client trying to be a > usenet client etc.) > > I suspect that aspect *is* on topic :-) Netscape circa mid-90's is one of the > first culprits I can think of, but doubtless there were others long before > then? (Note I'm not talking about small bundled utility apps or functionality > which is related to the central purpose of an application - more the cases > where something that was recognised as doing one job suddenly branched out and > started offering something completely different) How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, etc... Somewhat older that Netscape. Caused more flamewars, too. (Hope I'm not starting one here!!!) Joe. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 17 15:14:50 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:14:50 +0100 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? In-Reply-To: <46EDBF3F.9020403@oldskool.org> References: <46ED789F.5050308@philpem.me.uk> <46ED834A.2030301@philpem.me.uk> <46EDBF3F.9020403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46EEE03A.8090407@philpem.me.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > The FDI format (google "Disk2FDI") is open and complete, and there's a > few emulators supporting it (WinUAE, others that are also non-Amiga). > Doesn't require a catweasel either. Wow, looks like it can handle both raw bitstreams, and decoded bitstreams too, not to mention fully decoded sectors... It looks like I'll probably be using FDI for low-level storage and IMD (ImageDisk) for the high level stuff. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Sep 17 15:21:57 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:21:57 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAAF@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000401c7f968$67684470$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Surely any publisher of an article past or present and where software > is > an important part of the design and who does not print a listing is > only > doing half the job. If they are doing this to sell a few preprogrammed > chips then shame on them. Prinitng listings would have taken up too much space and made the magazine prohibitively expensive. These days that's no excuse since making things available via the web is trivial. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 16/09/2007 18:32 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 17 15:30:11 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:30:11 -0700 Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? Message-ID: <46EEE3D3.7030701@bitsavers.org> >> The FDI format (google "Disk2FDI") is open and complete, and there's a >> few emulators supporting it (WinUAE, others that are also non-Amiga). >> Doesn't require a catweasel either. > > Wow, looks like it can handle both raw bitstreams, and decoded bitstreams too, > not to mention fully decoded sectors... It doesn't appear they've ever has do deal with anything but soft-sectored formats though. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Sep 17 15:29:14 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:29:14 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46EE4FB1.303.1867E7F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000501c7f969$6b1689f0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I never cracked any of the things past a quick > browse--and most of the time, I forget that I even have them. DDJ > also issues compendium CDs; I don't know if Byte ever did. I think I've seen a DDJ #14 CD ... which does imply there were a bunch of them beforehand. As for BYTE, in the UK they had "Explore BYTE on CDROM" available for Winter 1997, Spring 1997, Fall 1997 and Winter 1997/98 (Vols 1-4 in that order). Then I think BYTE vanished off the face of the Earth. I browsed them and they had what appeared to be full articles. Don't recall about source code though. I think Practical Electronics had contents on CDs and included software on them (but I cannot find mine right now). Elektor has been available on CD since some time in the mid 1990s and that has software (or at least the ads claim it does). But I agree that trying to build something from the early 1990s that needed a programmed EPROM may turn out to be somewhat tricky. Still, that's what lists like this one and usenet are for :-) Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 16/09/2007 18:32 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 17 15:31:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:31:04 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <000401c7f968$67684470$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <000401c7f968$67684470$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <46EEE408.3030907@jetnet.ab.ca> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Prinitng listings would have taken up too much space and made the > magazine prohibitively expensive. These days that's no excuse since > making things available via the web is trivial. Stange I remember magizines for the COCO 90% BASIC listings. The other 9% cartridge games for sale. The other 1% Ads like upgrade your ... > Antonio Ben alias woodelf From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Sep 17 15:56:52 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer rescue -- Honeywell DDP-116 pictures In-Reply-To: <46EE8D7E.1010108@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <128447.22367.qm@web82611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- jim s wrote: > Is the thing you identify as a disk a disk, or a > drum? Looks more like > a drum. It is a fixed-head disk. --Bill From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Sep 17 16:23:12 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:23:12 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46EEE408.3030907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000801c7f970$f50a3a10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> woodelf wrote: > Stange I remember magizines for the COCO 90% BASIC listings. The other > 9% cartridge games for sale. The other 1% Ads like upgrade your ... I too remember computer mags in the early days with listings but they were rarely more than a page or two IIRC. The only one I recall ever buying was a Speccy one that had a "flexible" 45rpm disk on the cover. I didn't have a speccy at the time and it sounded awful on the record player :-) But those "you'll have to be a pre-programmed EPROM" type projects were 32KB upwards. I never bought one, so I've no idea how much real data was there, but even 16KB-worth of listing seems like a lot to print (and type!). Much more than a few BASIC listings. (I've just scanned what I think is the source listing to an RML COS Monitor listing runs to 58 pages for maybe 4KB. Even if half of that is comments and index and symbols corss references that could be discarded, that's still a lot of pages for a few KB. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 16/09/2007 18:32 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 17 16:48:58 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:48:58 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <000801c7f970$f50a3a10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> Antonio Carlini wrote: > > woodelf wrote: > > > Stange I remember magizines for the COCO 90% BASIC listings. The other > > 9% cartridge games for sale. The other 1% Ads like upgrade your ... > > I too remember computer mags in the early days with listings but > they were rarely more than a page or two IIRC. The only one I > recall ever buying was a Speccy one that had a "flexible" 45rpm > disk on the cover. I didn't have a speccy at the time and it sounded > awful on the record player :-) > > But those "you'll have to be a pre-programmed EPROM" type projects > were 32KB upwards. I never bought one, so I've no idea how much > real data was there, but even 16KB-worth of listing seems like > a lot to print (and type!). Much more than a few BASIC listings. > (I've just scanned what I think is the source listing to an > RML COS Monitor listing runs to 58 pages for maybe 4KB. Even > if half of that is comments and index and symbols corss references > that could be discarded, that's still a lot of pages for a > few KB. ... there was that attempt (late 70's?) by Byte or Kilobaud to establish a bar-code-type standard to print bit-streams of code/data in the magazine that users/readers would read into their computer with a wand. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 16:50:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <000501c7f969$6b1689f0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <347116.11875.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Antonio Carlini wrote: > But I agree that trying to build something from the > early 1990s that > needed a programmed EPROM may turn out to be > somewhat tricky. Still, > that's what lists like this one and usenet are for > :-) I own a book (that I thought was entitled "the Eprom Experimenter's Handbook" or something close) that seems rather to be entitled "Experiments with Eproms". You can search for that title on Amazon. Very cheap. Has some simple home brewed ("poor man's") programmers. My copy is softbound and is a greenish blue. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 16:55:59 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? Message-ID: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> that show is not what it used to be. Certainly not worth the ~300 mile drive. It used to be in a different location and was at probably 2x as big. Did talk w/some interesting people. I met a guy who has 3,000 computers, including some VERY big iron. Can you say you know anyone w/this many puters? Can you? I think not. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 16:58:05 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000801c7f970$f50a3a10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070917145728.K96099@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > ... there was that attempt (late 70's?) by Byte or Kilobaud to establish a > bar-code-type standard to print bit-streams of code/data in the magazine that > users/readers would read into their computer with a wand. "Cauzin Softstrip" From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Sep 17 16:58:58 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:58:58 -0300 Subject: MSX in RIO photoset References: <167125.47357.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f401c7f975$fada0330$f0fea8c0@alpha> > looked like loads of phun Alexandre. I thought the > black MSX 2+ tower was psyk. I like that Sony unit > too. In fact I want 1 or more. Sure it was! The black 2+ tower is the "Expert 3" board made by Ademir Carchano, modified to be used in a PC cabinet. The sony is beautiful, but expensive here in Brazil. So bad I didn't take my A1-WSX to the party. There are more to come, stay tuned! Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 17 17:00:09 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:00:09 -0500 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46EEB7C9.6090905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200709162131.l8GLVCQv023161@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46EE82D0.6090305@mdrconsult.com> <46EEB7C9.6090905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46EEF8E9.3080900@mdrconsult.com> woodelf wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > >> PS - This was all 20 years ago, and there were tape-loop turret lathes >> nearby, so it's on topic, right? > > Just what is a tape-loop turret lathe? Bear in mind that "computer" was a very vague idea to me at the time (mid-70s to early 80s). Some of the shops I worked in had automated lathes and vertical mills that were guided by punched mylar tape. Since they normally made dozens or hundreds of the same part, the tape was looped. Now I'd love to know what was in the guts of the thing, but at the time I could have cared less. I liked them, though - I took the tape-loop machines pretty much for granted, but now I marvel at their reliability in markedly hostile conditions. They also made my life a lot less boring. The automation of very simple, repetitve machining was much more of a relief than a threat in my mind. >> *runs* > Thows a wet tribble at you. :) Eew, nasty. :^) Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 17 17:02:10 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:02:10 -0500 Subject: Apps with other functions, was: Re: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EEF962.3010806@mdrconsult.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On 17/09/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Golan Klinger wrote: >> It actually got me wondering when apps started really pushing (or forcing) >> functionality on users outside of their core reason for existing (such as a >> web browser trying to be an email client, or an email client trying to be a >> usenet client etc.) >> >> I suspect that aspect *is* on topic :-) Netscape circa mid-90's is one of the >> first culprits I can think of, but doubtless there were others long before >> then? (Note I'm not talking about small bundled utility apps or functionality >> which is related to the central purpose of an application - more the cases >> where something that was recognised as doing one job suddenly branched out and >> started offering something completely different) > > How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an > editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail > client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, > etc... > > Somewhat older that Netscape. Caused more flamewars, too. (Hope I'm > not starting one here!!!) Oooh, yeah... That block of code would be a great OS if it had a decent text editor. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 17:02:15 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070917150133.B96099@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > that show is not what it used to be. Certainly not > worth the ~300 mile drive. It used to be in a > different location and was at probably 2x as big. > Did talk w/some interesting people. I met a guy who > has 3,000 computers, including some VERY big iron. Can > you say you know anyone w/this many puters? Can you? I > think not. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sellam's collection needs to be stored in multiple places to avoid destabilizing the tectonic plates From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 17 17:01:35 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:01:35 -0500 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000801c7f970$f50a3a10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070917165942.0542b438@mail> At 04:48 PM 9/17/2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: >... there was that attempt (late 70's?) by Byte or Kilobaud to establish a >bar-code-type standard to print bit-streams of code/data in the magazine that >users/readers would read into their computer with a wand. Which this list has discussed many times before. When are we going to create a definitive Wiki for our obscure topics? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauzin_Softstrip doesn't say much. - John From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 17 17:09:15 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:09:15 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000801c7f970$f50a3a10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200709171809.15567.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 17 September 2007 17:48, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Antonio Carlini wrote: > > woodelf wrote: > > > Stange I remember magizines for the COCO 90% BASIC listings. The other > > > 9% cartridge games for sale. The other 1% Ads like upgrade your ... > > > > I too remember computer mags in the early days with listings but > > they were rarely more than a page or two IIRC. The only one I > > recall ever buying was a Speccy one that had a "flexible" 45rpm > > disk on the cover. I didn't have a speccy at the time and it sounded > > awful on the record player :-) > > > > But those "you'll have to be a pre-programmed EPROM" type projects > > were 32KB upwards. I never bought one, so I've no idea how much > > real data was there, but even 16KB-worth of listing seems like > > a lot to print (and type!). Much more than a few BASIC listings. > > (I've just scanned what I think is the source listing to an > > RML COS Monitor listing runs to 58 pages for maybe 4KB. Even > > if half of that is comments and index and symbols corss references > > that could be discarded, that's still a lot of pages for a > > few KB. > > ... there was that attempt (late 70's?) by Byte or Kilobaud to establish a > bar-code-type standard to print bit-streams of code/data in the magazine > that users/readers would read into their computer with a wand. "Paperbytes" (tm) comes to mind, though I can't recall now which magazine it was that had that in there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Sep 17 17:19:30 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:19:30 +0100 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1190067570.10224.0.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 14:55 -0700, Chris M wrote: > Did talk w/some interesting people. I met a guy who > has 3,000 computers, including some VERY big iron. Can > you say you know anyone w/this many puters? Can you? I > think not. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA /me looks up Sellam's email address... Gordon From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 17 17:31:43 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:31:43 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <20070917150133.B96099@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000801c7f97a$87905d20$eb4df945@evan> >>> has 3,000 computers He's either BS-ing you, or he means modern-ish PC junk, or both. From andy at smokebelch.org Mon Sep 17 17:40:49 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. Message-ID: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> OK I realise this is cheating slightly but I still thought it was quite cool that it worked... SimH on a Nokia N800: http://carrierdetect.com/?p=39 VM/370 R6 under Hercules on an N800: http://carrierdetect.com/?p=40 Just wish the thing had a CF slot and thus could take a Microdrive, in order that I wouldn't have to worry about frequent writes to flash storage. Speaking of which does anyone know if VMS can live without page and swap files? Somehow it doesn't seem likely... Trying to work out how I could make it do as little writes as possible to the FS, e.g. by disabling opcom, auditing and so on. And is there a 'noatime' mount option equivalent for ODS? Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 17 17:33:51 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:33:51 +0100 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <000801c7f97a$87905d20$eb4df945@evan> References: <000801c7f97a$87905d20$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <46EF00CF.2090202@yahoo.co.uk> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> has 3,000 computers > > He's either BS-ing you, or he means modern-ish PC junk, or both. Or he's speaking on 'behalf' of somewhere. e.g. how many machines do the CHM have? Quite a few thousand I'd expect. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 17 17:56:59 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:56:59 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <000801c7f970$f50a3a10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> <6.2.3.4.2.20070917165942.0542b438@mail> Message-ID: <46EF063A.4AEE70F4@cs.ubc.ca> John Foust wrote: > At 04:48 PM 9/17/2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >... there was that attempt (late 70's?) by Byte or Kilobaud to establish a > >bar-code-type standard to print bit-streams of code/data in the magazine that > >users/readers would read into their computer with a wand. > > Which this list has discussed many times before. > > When are we going to create a definitive Wiki for our obscure topics? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauzin_Softstrip > > doesn't say much. Sorry, kind of thought it had been discussed previously. I could well be wrong but I'm not sure the Cauzin Softstrip is what I'm recalling though - the refs linked on wiki refer to CS being 1985, I think there was something being discussed or proposed by one of the mags years earlier, more in the IMSAI/Altair era. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Sep 17 17:57:11 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:57:11 +0100 Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. In-Reply-To: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <000b01c7f97e$1665bbf0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Andrew Back wrote: > Speaking of which does anyone know if VMS can live without > page > and swap files? Somehow it doesn't seem likely... The OpenVMS VAX CDs from V7.1 onwards (or thereabouts) were bootable (from [SYS1] IIRC). I don't recall there being a requirement for any local storage. All unsupported, if I remember correctly. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 16/09/2007 18:32 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 17:19:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <46EDAF76.70404@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 16, 7 11:34:30 pm Message-ID: > > I find that very hard to believe. I would be suprised if most (if any) > > signal connecotres met the approvale requirements for a mains connector. > > You got me curious, so I just ran a search on Farnell's database for DB25 > connectors rated to 500V; it coughed up 60 different ones. IIRC some of the old Cannon D-seires connectors were rated at 750V. However, there's a big different between 'Is rated to withstand main voltage' and 'is approbed as a mains connecotr' > > I can't think of an example where I've actually seen it done with D-types, but > I've certainly come across it on telecomms stuff before using DIL-type card > connectors (what I've always called 'euroconnectors', but I'm not sure what > the official term is) DIN41612 connectors? The sort of think used for Nubus cards, for example? There are many variants of those, incluiding ones iwth widely spaced pins (0.2"?) for mains work. That Philips machine you gave me has one on the SMPSU board for that purpose. I've seen PCBs with a mains DIN41612 connecotr and a signal DIN41612 connector alongide each other, but I've never seen a board that puts live mains on the same connecotr as low-votlage logic signals. > I bought one of those wall warts with a range of interchangeable connectors > when I was in the US last. Seemed like a good idea at the time; the connectors > were reversible so that you could swap polarity just by changing the connector > through 180 degrees on the cable, not to mention that it came with about ten > different sizes of connector. (the kids were getting through batteries in toys > with lightning speed :-) > > It was only when I took the packaging off that I discovered the flaw: the > terminals at the end of the cable are marked for polarity - but there are *no* > markings on the interchangeable connectors which give an indication of which > of the two pins goes to the connector's ring, and which goes to the tip. > Without any test gear it's random as to the polarity of the plugged-in connector. > Argh!. How about 'buzzing out' each 'end' with an ohmmeter to determine which pin is the tip and which the sleeve, and then marking the 'tip' pin on each 'end' with, say, Tipp-Ex. The box of 'ends' I bought at Maplin each have a little diagram on 2 of the sides of each tip showing the polarity (opposite polarites for the 2 diagrams on each dip, of course). The cable-mounted socket has an arrow on one sidem and I wired it so that points to the apporpairte diagram when the tip is plugged in. That maant the wire wit the the tracer stripe on it wen to the -ve side of the bench supply and the plain wire to the +ve. Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 18:00:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:00:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apps with other functions, In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Sep 17, 7 04:12:39 pm Message-ID: > How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an > editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail > client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, > etc... You mean the one that Eventually Malloc()s All Computer Storage? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 17:24:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:24:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <0E839E79-CC45-481C-BF44-2D96C8556AE5@loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at Sep 16, 7 04:16:54 pm Message-ID: > I picked it up for fifty cents at a swap meet in the hopes that it > might be an ASCII keyboard that I could use in an Apple I replica, > but given that it has a 40-pin DIP socket, it's clearly not (it was That 40 pin socket is presumably fro some kind of encoder chip, either a dedicated encoder or a microconttoller programmed to scan the matrix and detect key closures. If the latter, you should be able to find the clock components on the PCB somwhere. It's likely to be a 8048 or 8051 chip if it is a microcontroller, see if the pinouts of those could make any sense at all with the connections on the PCB. > very early in the morning, what can I say). It has a five-pin power > header on the top left, two red LED indicators, the aforementioned 40- That 5 pin header is likely to be serial daa output (or maybe clock+data) as well, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 17:35:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:35:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 16, 7 06:49:46 pm Message-ID: > > >Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 06:57:40 -0700 > >From: dwight elvey > > > > A carbon arc would work as well but I've not seen these > >since they've stopped using these in search lights. > >Dwight > > Back in elementary school one of the library books had interesting > projects in it. One project was to remove the carbon rods from four Back when such books _did_ contain intersting projects.... You can, of course, still get some old books as reprints, but modern books (as in books written in the last 10 years or so) containly nothing 'fun' like this. > Now carefully touch the tips of the two clothes pin carbon rods > together and then slowly draw them apart. TADA! Carbon arc. I must admint I have reservations about hand-holding 2 wooden clothes pegs holding carbon rods conencted ot the mains... > > Vary the salt content in the jar to adjust the power. Or the spacing between the 2 carbon rods in the rheostat. At least one of my 'electictal things to make at home' books describes how to make a proper arc lamp with automatic feeding of the carbons as they burn down. > It was quite the attention getter at the ES science fair. I suspect > books in grade schools don't contain cool/dangerous projects like > this any more. I only electrocuted myself once or twice by Alas not... > touching the live bits of the contraption... I doubt very much if thing I got up to at school would be OK now. Like making a crude cathode ray tube. OK, it had ot be continuously pumped (and a rotary pumo doesn't realyl give a hard enough vacuum), but I did get a spot that could be deflected. Learnt a lot doing things like that. -tpny From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 17:41:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:41:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 16, 7 07:34:43 pm Message-ID: > So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute a > 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? The only real difference betwen those 2 parts is that the former has twice as many locatiuons, and therefore 1 extra address pin. There's nothing to stop you holding any of the address pins in a contant logic state for all time. So if you program the 16K byte image in the first half of a 27256 and hold the A14 pin low, it'll behave as a 27128. Or program the image in the second hald and hold A14 high. Or, of course, program 2 images into the chip and select between them with a jumper conencted to the A14 pin. But please don't just program the same image into both halves of the 27156 and leave A14 floating, assuming it'll always apprar as a 0 or a 1 to the chip, and since the 2 halves contain the same data, it doesn't matter which it appears as. You _will_ have hard-to-find glitches if you do somehting like that. Other than the A14 input, the pinouts of the 2 devices are much the same in read mode. So there's not even mouch PCB modification to do. Also, IIRC, the pinout for programming a 27128 and a 27256 are rather more different, with Vpp moving to a different pin. But if you use a commercial programmer, that's taken care of. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 17:45:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:45:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 46, Message 18, In-Reply-To: <012701c7f905$a74ecae0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> from "Mike Hatch" at Sep 17, 7 09:35:06 am Message-ID: > > Try www.bulgin.co.uk and go for the General Connectors page > (http://www.bulgin.co.uk/Products/GenPurpose_Connectors/GenPurpose_Connectors.html) > Many type on that page but I think you should see what is described towards > the bottm. Yes, that's the sort of thing. The actual ones used were larger in diameter than those, and wwre rated at 5A, but those seem to have been discontinued now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 17:57:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:57:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <46EE78E9.17934.1908EACF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 17, 7 12:54:01 pm Message-ID: > When I think about it, the MITS 8800 had connector punchouts for DB25 > *only* in the back panel. DB25 seemed to be the lingua franca back > then for hobbyist interfaces. If one had an 8" floppy drive, one ran > the ribbon cable right through the crack between the back panel and > the case cover directly to the controller card(s). No DD50s. I have an S100 amchine called a CASU Super C. It contains a Cromemco CPU board, some other stnadard 64K RAM bvoard, a Micromation Doubler disk controller and CASU-designed boot ROM and seiral interface boards. The disk drive (a Persci) is in a separate box. The 50 wire interface cable is split down the middle adn connected to a pair of DB25s... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 17:54:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:54:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <01C7F93F.D41EE980@mandr71> from "M H Stein" at Sep 17, 7 03:29:59 pm Message-ID: > Mind you, IBM didn't "invent" that printer connector; lots of S-100 boxes used > DB-25s for RS-232 *and* parallel printers and, what's even worse, they were usually How about the Facit 4070 paper tape punch? It has a DB25 connector on the rear panel. Inside there are 2 slots. One takes the control logic/driver PCB for the punch. The parallel input of that is wired to one side of the other eddge connecotr ; the other side of that connecotr is wired to the DB25. Most of the time theres a 'jumoper board' in that second slot, bringing the parallel interface (TTL levels, close to Centronics but not quite) on the DB25 connector. But you could also get a serial interface PCB, really a a serial-parallel converter. This pluggeed in place of the jumper board and gave an RS232 interface (normal pinouts, but with a current loop on a couple of the normally spare pins) on said DB25. So with that unit the only way to tell whether that DB25 is an RS232 serial interfxce or a TTL level parallel interface is to look at what PCB is fitted. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 17 18:39:00 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:39:00 -0600 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46EF1014.7040003@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I doubt very much if thing I got up to at school would be OK now. Like > making a crude cathode ray tube. OK, it had ot be continuously pumped > (and a rotary pumo doesn't realyl give a hard enough vacuum), but I did > get a spot that could be deflected. Learnt a lot doing things like that. How a about now deflecting a tiny spot?. There was a atomic force microscope somewhere web as a DIY project but I think it vanished overnight. I think they were claming about $150 or so for the simple equipment. > -tpny Ben alias woodelf From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 17 18:43:10 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:43:10 -0400 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709171943.10707.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 17 September 2007 18:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > I picked it up for fifty cents at a swap meet in the hopes that it > > might be an ASCII keyboard that I could use in an Apple I replica, > > but given that it has a 40-pin DIP socket, it's clearly not (it was > > That 40 pin socket is presumably fro some kind of encoder chip, either a > dedicated encoder or a microconttoller programmed to scan the matrix and > detect key closures. > > If the latter, you should be able to find the clock components on the PCB > somwhere. It's likely to be a 8048 or 8051 chip if it is a > microcontroller, see if the pinouts of those could make any sense at all > with the connections on the PCB. > > > very early in the morning, what can I say). It has a five-pin power > > header on the top left, two red LED indicators, the aforementioned 40- > > That 5 pin header is likely to be serial daa output (or maybe clock+data) > as well, Somewhere I think I have a bare keyboard (no keycaps or case, but real switches as opposed to the junk plastic sheets you get with some these days), and it has a ROM-less part in there and an eprom next to it. I find that, I'm gonna read that sucker out, see if I can make some kind of sense out of it... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 17 18:45:55 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:45:55 -0400 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709171945.55235.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 17 September 2007 18:41, Tony Duell wrote: > > So the question of the minute is this, is it possible to substitute a > > 27C256 for a smaller 27C128? > But please don't just program the same image into both halves of the > 27156 and leave A14 floating, assuming it'll always apprar as a 0 or a 1 > to the chip, and since the 2 halves contain the same data, it doesn't > matter which it appears as. You _will_ have hard-to-find glitches if you > do somehting like that. I would've thought so too... Particularly with CMOS parts. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 17 18:50:25 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:50:25 -0400 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709171950.25833.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 17 September 2007 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > When I think about it, the MITS 8800 had connector punchouts for DB25 > > *only* in the back panel. DB25 seemed to be the lingua franca back > > then for hobbyist interfaces. If one had an 8" floppy drive, one ran > > the ribbon cable right through the crack between the back panel and > > the case cover directly to the controller card(s). No DD50s. > > I have an S100 amchine called a CASU Super C. It contains a Cromemco CPU > board, some other stnadard 64K RAM bvoard, a Micromation Doubler disk > controller and CASU-designed boot ROM and seiral interface boards. > > The disk drive (a Persci) is in a separate box. The 50 wire interface > cable is split down the middle adn connected to a pair of DB25s... I have a Cromemco "System 3" (?). It also has a Persci drive in it, a dual. Is that what yours is? There's apparently some sort of a problem with mine, as the floppy which was in it when I got it had been tried so much and for so long that the initial tracks were completely worn away, and you could see through it. On perusing the service data for it, I notice that the drive uses a bunch of _incandescent_ light bulbs for things like index sensor, etc. I would imagine that one or more of these is likely to be the problem. I'd deferred working on it because you can't do much with it in the computer case, and I needed to make some sort of extension for the power cable to the drive, which was a rather odd connector... Nice machine, in that the S-100 card cage pulls out like a drawer. Too bad it's not working. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 19:26:45 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apps with other functions, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <491267.82210.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > How about that editor (or rater, originally a set > of macros for an > > editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which > can be an e-mail > > client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play > tetris, be an IDE, etc, > > etc... > > You mean the one that Eventually Malloc()s All > Computer Storage? I like that editor. Lots of fun commands for all - Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift. -Ian From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 20:03:22 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:03:22 +0100 Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. In-Reply-To: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709171803i4810e50av6eaaedd86dd0d1c4@mail.gmail.com> On 17/09/2007, Andrew Back wrote: > OK I realise this is cheating slightly but I still thought it was quite > cool that it worked... > > SimH on a Nokia N800: > > http://carrierdetect.com/?p=39 > > VM/370 R6 under Hercules on an N800: > > http://carrierdetect.com/?p=40 > > Just wish the thing had a CF slot and thus could take a Microdrive, in > order that I wouldn't have to worry about frequent writes to flash > storage. Speaking of which does anyone know if VMS can live without page > and swap files? Somehow it doesn't seem likely... Trying to work out how I > could make it do as little writes as possible to the FS, e.g. by disabling > opcom, auditing and so on. And is there a 'noatime' mount option > equivalent for ODS? *Wow!* There's nothing terribly coherent I can say to that, except that in several kinds of ways that's the single most impressive thing I've seen on a computer in quite some time. Wow. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 20:07:41 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:07:41 +0100 Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: References: <01C7F93F.D41EE980@mandr71> Message-ID: <575131af0709171807m1b90c8a9n69b460a324ac3ae9@mail.gmail.com> On 17/09/2007, Tony Duell wrote: > So with that unit the only way to tell whether that DB25 is an RS232 > serial interfxce or a TTL level parallel interface is to look at what PCB > is fitted. J*s*s wept! To quote Douglas Adams: ARTHUR: Don't ask me how it works or I'll start to whimper. -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 11 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 20:59:18 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:59:18 -0400 Subject: Apps with other functions, was: Re: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <46EEF962.3010806@mdrconsult.com> References: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> <46EEF962.3010806@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <46EF30F6.3090608@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: >> How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an >> editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail >> client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, >> etc... >> >> Somewhat older that Netscape. Caused more flamewars, too. (Hope I'm >> not starting one here!!!) > > Oooh, yeah... > > That block of code would be a great OS if it had a decent text editor. Am I on crack, or do I indeed remember someone having ported vi to emacs? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 21:04:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:04:14 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46EF00CF.2090202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000801c7f97a$87905d20$eb4df945@evan> <46EF00CF.2090202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46EF321E.6040402@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>> has 3,000 computers >> >> He's either BS-ing you, or he means modern-ish PC junk, or both. > > Or he's speaking on 'behalf' of somewhere. > > e.g. how many machines do the CHM have? Quite a few thousand I'd expect. I wouldn't say I have three thousand, but I have at least several hundred. My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least that I know of. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 21:10:08 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:10:08 -0400 Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. In-Reply-To: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <46EF3380.5090908@gmail.com> Andrew Back wrote: > OK I realise this is cheating slightly but I still thought it was quite > cool that it worked... > > SimH on a Nokia N800: > > http://carrierdetect.com/?p=39 Cool! > VM/370 R6 under Hercules on an N800: > > http://carrierdetect.com/?p=40 Now that is truly righteous. Impressive. > Just wish the thing had a CF slot and thus could take a Microdrive, in > order that I wouldn't have to worry about frequent writes to flash > storage. Speaking of which does anyone know if VMS can live without page > and swap files? Somehow it doesn't seem likely... Trying to work out how > I could make it do as little writes as possible to the FS, e.g. by > disabling opcom, auditing and so on. And is there a 'noatime' mount > option equivalent for ODS? Wasn't there someone making an outboard adapter for SD that holds a CF? I have something similar that holds a CF and plugs into a SmartMedia slot. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 21:11:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:11:51 -0400 Subject: Apps with other functions, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46EF33E7.5030501@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an >> editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail >> client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, >> etc... > > You mean the one that Eventually Malloc()s All Computer Storage? On startup? Peace... Sridhar From bear at typewritten.org Mon Sep 17 21:34:04 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:34:04 -0700 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <20070917150133.B96099@shell.lmi.net> References: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <20070917150133.B96099@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2007, at 3:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: >> Did talk w/some interesting people. I met a guy who >> has 3,000 computers, including some VERY big iron. Can >> you say you know anyone w/this many puters? Can you? I >> think not. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > Sellam's collection needs to be stored in multiple places to avoid > destabilizing the tectonic plates And some people focus on quality over quantity. I met a guy with 3,000 Apple //e machines, all in varying degrees of disrepair. Was I impressed? Only in the clinical sense, in that it made an impression on me. It did not, however, inspire envy. I think Sellam might be the one person who could claim bragging rights over both quality AND quantity. (@; ok bear From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 17 21:39:06 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:39:06 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? References: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <20070917150133.B96099@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <010701c7f99d$15c59340$cd5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "r.stricklin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:34 PM Subject: Re: did anyone else go to MIT? > I think Sellam might be the one person who could claim bragging > rights over both quality AND quantity. (@; > > ok > bear If he had a database or spreadsheet listing everything he has, I would be impressed. Acquiring stuff is easy, knowing what you have after a few years without some kind of list is not. From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 17 21:43:34 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:43:34 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> >>> I met a guy with 3,000 Apple //e machines I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really hard to believe? WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 17 21:44:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:44:23 -0600 Subject: Apps with other functions, was: Re: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <46EF30F6.3090608@gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> <46EEF962.3010806@mdrconsult.com> <46EF30F6.3090608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EF3B87.7000704@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Am I on crack, or do I indeed remember someone having ported vi to emacs? Now how do you get out of vi.. That was my problem with Linux when some script of default sent me there. Did Unix ( Original ) have a screen editor other than vi? A nice little editor like 'T' under DOS (PC) has spoiled me for a useful application program. > Peace... Sridhar For TTY's a line editor is I know is used. Ben alias Woodelf PS. All I know is the emacs install tar under Linux is very large. (One who still has dial up) From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 17 21:44:45 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:44:45 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <010701c7f99d$15c59340$cd5c1941@game> Message-ID: <004101c7f99d$e06a40f0$eb4df945@evan> > I think Sellam might be the one person who could claim bragging > rights over both quality AND quantity. (@; > > ok > bear >>> If he had a database or spreadsheet listing everything he has, I would be impressed. Acquiring stuff is easy, knowing what you have after a few years without some kind of list is not. A map would be more valuable! I got lost in the aisles of his warehouse once. It was like life-sized Maze Craze. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 17 21:47:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:47:29 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> References: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <200709172247.29081.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 17 September 2007 22:43, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> I met a guy with 3,000 Apple //e machines > > I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really > hard to believe? > > WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? "Beowulf cluster, baby!" Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 17 21:50:07 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:50:07 -0700 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> References: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: At 10:43 PM -0400 9/17/07, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> I met a guy with 3,000 Apple //e machines > >I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really >hard to believe? > >WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? Actually I find it believable, and sad both (for the persons mental state). Of course it could be that he got them by buying them as a lot from a large school district thinking he could make money reselling them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 22:00:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:00:07 -0700 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> References: , <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <46EEDCC7.19162.1A8F02E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2007 at 22:43, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really > hard to believe? > > WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? People are strange, particularly when it comes to collecting. I knew a fellow with 100,000 wheat-head US pennies. He claimed they were rare... Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon Sep 17 22:06:00 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:06:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [SPAM(date)] Tore's website Message-ID: <200709180306.l8I360nx068481@billy.ezwind.net> http://gunkies.org/stuff/CV.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 17 22:08:31 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <004101c7f99d$e06a40f0$eb4df945@evan> References: <004101c7f99d$e06a40f0$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Evan Koblentz wrote: > A map would be more valuable! I got lost in the aisles of his warehouse > once. It was like life-sized Maze Craze. In Bakersfield, there used to be a life-sized maze called "Maze Craze". It was knocked down years ago to build a WalMart. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 17 22:09:40 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46EEDCC7.19162.1A8F02E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> <46EEDCC7.19162.1A8F02E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Sep 2007 at 22:43, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really > > hard to believe? > > > > WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? > > People are strange, particularly when it comes to collecting. I knew > a fellow with 100,000 wheat-head US pennies. He claimed they were > rare... Wheat on the head? Now that IS rare. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Sep 17 22:47:05 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:47:05 -0700 Subject: New acquisition Message-ID: <46EF4A39.6080309@shiresoft.com> Hi, I just wanted to let y'all know that I recently acquired a DEC 2065. I put up a quick web page of how my shop is being reorganized to accommodate the new "toy". Warning this is not a permanent location (ie if you link to it you may not find it in a month). http://web.mac.com/ggs17/site -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Sep 17 22:54:59 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:54:59 -0700 Subject: New acquisition In-Reply-To: <46EF4A39.6080309@shiresoft.com> References: <46EF4A39.6080309@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <46EF4C13.3020503@shiresoft.com> Arg! That's what I get for re-typing rather than cut-and-paste. The link should be: http://web.mac.com/ggs17/Site Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > I just wanted to let y'all know that I recently acquired a DEC 2065. > I put up a quick web page of how my shop is being reorganized to > accommodate the new "toy". Warning this is not a permanent location > (ie if you link to it you may not find it in a month). > > http://web.mac.com/ggs17/site > -- TTFN - Guy From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 17 22:59:32 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:59:32 -0700 Subject: New acquisition In-Reply-To: <46EF4A39.6080309@shiresoft.com> References: <46EF4A39.6080309@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: At 8:47 PM -0700 9/17/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >Hi, > >I just wanted to let y'all know that I recently acquired a DEC 2065. >I put up a quick web page of how my shop is being reorganized to >accommodate the new "toy". Warning this is not a permanent location >(ie if you link to it you may not find it in a month). > >http://web.mac.com/ggs17/site Drop the site from the URL and it will work... http://web.mac.com/ggs17 I'm not sure, if I'm jealous, or relieved that I'm not the one trying to take care of that BEAUTIFUL system! What are you going to run on it? What were you running on the KL10? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 23:10:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:10:03 -0700 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: References: , <46EEDCC7.19162.1A8F02E0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46EEED2B.28275.1ACF08C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2007 at 20:09, David Griffith wrote: >> Wheat on the head? Now that IS rare. No numismatist I, you know--the reverse--the "other" head... ;) Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Sep 17 22:30:50 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:30:50 -0300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 51 Message-ID: <01C7F98E.9B604B80@mandr71> ----------------Original message: Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:57:59 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] >> When I think about it, the MITS 8800 had connector punchouts for DB25 >> *only* in the back panel. DB25 seemed to be the lingua franca back >> then for hobbyist interfaces. If one had an 8" floppy drive, one ran >> the ribbon cable right through the crack between the back panel and >> the case cover directly to the controller card(s). No DD50s. >I have an S100 amchine called a CASU Super C. It contains a Cromemco CPU >board, some other stnadard 64K RAM bvoard, a Micromation Doubler disk >controller and CASU-designed boot ROM and seiral interface boards. >The disk drive (a Persci) is in a separate box. The 50 wire interface >cable is split down the middle adn connected to a pair of DB25s... >-tony ---------------Reply: Cromemco did the same thing with their external 8" IMI hard disks; the Z-2 could have one internal (sacrificing half the slots to make room) but if you wanted more you got a 2-drive HDD cabinet the same size as the Z-2 connected through 2 DB25s. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Sep 17 22:54:43 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:54:43 -0300 Subject: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) Message-ID: <01C7F98E.9CFC4840@mandr71> -----------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:50:25 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] On Monday 17 September 2007 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > I have an S100 amchine called a CASU Super C. It contains a Cromemco CPU > board, some other stnadard 64K RAM bvoard, a Micromation Doubler disk > controller and CASU-designed boot ROM and seiral interface boards. > > The disk drive (a Persci) is in a separate box. The 50 wire interface > cable is split down the middle adn connected to a pair of DB25s... I have a Cromemco "System 3" (?). It also has a Persci drive in it, a dual. Is that what yours is? There's apparently some sort of a problem with mine, as the floppy which was in it when I got it had been tried so much and for so long that the initial tracks were completely worn away, and you could see through it. On perusing the service data for it, I notice that the drive uses a bunch of _incandescent_ light bulbs for things like index sensor, etc. I would imagine that one or more of these is likely to be the problem. I'd deferred working on it because you can't do much with it in the computer case, and I needed to make some sort of extension for the power cable to the drive, which was a rather odd connector... Nice machine, in that the S-100 card cage pulls out like a drawer. Too bad it's not working. ------------Reply: Lots of luck with that Persci; nice and fast when they worked, but... My 3s all have Tandon singles; slower but infinitely more reliable. You probably know, but the controller can use both 5 1/4 and 8" drives; it's sometimes convenient to hook up a known good 5 1/4 drive to check out the rest of the system and get it up & running before you dig into the 8". Also makes it easier to make disks from PC images if you need them. If there's no HD you might have trouble finding 12V though & need a separate supply or regulator; an external powered 5 1/4 disk in a nice enclosure is a useful peripheral for a System3. Relevant to the original discussion: Cromemco's external 5 1/4 FDDs and tape drives used a standard Amphenol IEEE connector as used on parallel Commmodore FDDs &c (not IEEE protocol though ;) mike From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Sep 18 00:06:09 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:06:09 -0700 Subject: New acquisition In-Reply-To: References: <46EF4A39.6080309@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <46EF5CC1.5080308@shiresoft.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:47 PM -0700 9/17/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I just wanted to let y'all know that I recently acquired a DEC 2065. >> I put up a quick web page of how my shop is being reorganized to >> accommodate the new "toy". Warning this is not a permanent location >> (ie if you link to it you may not find it in a month). >> >> http://web.mac.com/ggs17/site > > Drop the site from the URL and it will work... http://web.mac.com/ggs17 > > I'm not sure, if I'm jealous, or relieved that I'm not the one trying > to take care of that BEAUTIFUL system! I'm dreading reconnecting all of the internal cables, wires, etc. You can't see them (because they're between the cabinets) but there are *lots* of thing to reconnect correctly (including massive -5.2v and -2.0v wires about the size of your "little finger"). > > What are you going to run on it? What were you running on the KL10? I never got the KL10 running (didn't even try). It was stored in a barn and had lots of "left overs" in it. It would have been a major restoration effort. It's probably still worth it. I just don't have the time right now for it which is why I jumped at the chance for the 2065. I'll probably run TOPS-10 mostly and TOPS-20 occasionally once I get everything put together and tested. -- TTFN - Guy From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 18 00:19:05 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:19:05 -0700 Subject: New acquisition In-Reply-To: <46EF5CC1.5080308@shiresoft.com> References: <46EF4A39.6080309@shiresoft.com> <46EF5CC1.5080308@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: At 10:06 PM -0700 9/17/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I'm not sure, if I'm jealous, or relieved that I'm not the one >>trying to take care of that BEAUTIFUL system! >I'm dreading reconnecting all of the internal cables, wires, etc. >You can't see them (because they're between the cabinets) but there >are *lots* of thing to reconnect correctly (including massive -5.2v >and -2.0v wires about the size of your "little finger"). That would be part of where the relief on my part comes in. :^) >I'll probably run TOPS-10 mostly and TOPS-20 occasionally once I get >everything put together and tested. Very cool. Any chance of getting it up and running on a network? If you can get it running DECnet, you could hook it up to HECnet. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Sep 18 00:35:44 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:35:44 -0700 Subject: New acquisition In-Reply-To: References: <46EF4A39.6080309@shiresoft.com> <46EF5CC1.5080308@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <46EF63B0.60508@shiresoft.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:06 PM -0700 9/17/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> I'll probably run TOPS-10 mostly and TOPS-20 occasionally once I get >> everything put together and tested. > > Very cool. Any chance of getting it up and running on a network? If > you can get it running DECnet, you could hook it up to HECnet. Until I get all of the cabinets bolted together I won't be able to determine what it's exact configuration is. I do know it has 2 MF20 memories. What I don't know is if they are still MF20's or were upgraded to MG20's. HEAVY power supplies are mounted on the back doors and an unsupported cabinet will tip over if opened (so I haven't which is why I don't know the exact configuration). I'm hoping to get the cabinets bolted together next weekend. It'll take a while since everything has to be leveled (and it's not right now...I've already tried...they have leveling feet for a reason...they're not there to just catch every lip when you're trying to move them). -- TTFN - Guy From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Mon Sep 17 03:53:00 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:53:00 +0100 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: References: <46ED3766.4010901@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200709170953.00142.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Sunday 16 September 2007 18:15:16 Zane H. Healy wrote: > I did a quick Google, and it appears that it would be more difficult > and expensive to get a barber's UV sterilizer than a proper EPROM > eraser. > > In any case it sounds like any *cheap* EPROM eraser should be plenty > good enough for me. :^) Mine is a pretty big thing (takes about a dozen chips). It was about 30 quid off eBay. I think it's quite old, but it all seems to work. Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 17 11:38:37 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:38:37 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAB5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> A couple of other things have come to mind. DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running under OS/8, RT11 or VMS They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often included training, installation and maintenance. There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD Arithmetic Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to > get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean > packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about > 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs here: > http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does > anyone have any background information on them? > Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no > toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to > these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. Tim. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 17:55:24 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <20070917150133.B96099@shell.lmi.net> References: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <20070917150133.B96099@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: >> that show is not what it used to be. Certainly not >> worth the ~300 mile drive. It used to be in a >> different location and was at probably 2x as big. I've been going to MIT for over 13 years and don't ever remember it being anywhere but the parking garage. >> Did talk w/some interesting people. I met a guy who >> has 3,000 computers, including some VERY big iron. Can >> you say you know anyone w/this many puters? Can you? I >> think not. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA That's probably Bill German. He has a retaining wall outside his house built from IBM PS2 Mod 80 cases. Quite a collector! He very well may give Sellam a run for his money in terms of sheer volume. Yesterday's MIT flea? We drove down 240 miles from Burlington, Vermont. Lots of vendors, lots of junk. The only vintage hardware I spotted was a bastardized S100 box with a bunch of Vector Graphics and Cromemco boards. Someone else got it, but I wouldn't have bought it anyway - too hacked up. My big score was an NEC MultiSync 3d monitor for my Amiga. A freebie, yet! Paid > $50 for the last one from eBay, so the day wasn't a total loss. In general, all the good stuff goes directly to eBay now. I'm not going out of my way to make it in October. The show is past its prime and on the decline (IMHO). The NEAR Hamfest is probably going to be more worthwhile. It's the weekend of Oct. 12 in Deerfield, NH. Replaces the now-defunct Hosstraders. Steve -- From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 18:32:27 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Catweasel Mk1-3 not suitable for archiving - why? Message-ID: <903923.33525.qm@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I've been doing some more work on the FDD reader/writer, and I came across an interesting note on the Software Preservation Society website: > We cannot yet support the Catweasel for technical reasons, primarily because > it does not yet enable us to read disks in sufficient detail for dumping, nor > does it allow writing IPF files back to disk. And while it does seem that the > Mk4 would be suited to the job, current models are still running Mk3 firmware > and drivers, meaning that we are still no closer forward in this regard. > > As soon as Mk4 firmware is available for these cards, we will do our best to > obtain one with a view to support it for these purposes. Until then, our hands > are tied. [http://www.softpres.org/glossary:catweasel] Now what I'd like to know is, what part of the Catweasel's design prevents it from being used for archiving discs? From what I remember, the Amiga FDD controller is a bog-standard raw reader with an MFM sync detector. All it does is sync up to a bitstream and read it from the disc as a raw stream until it gets told to A) shut up or B) receives another MFM sync. From what I've read, the Catweasel differs only in that it measures the timing between bits, and can do MFM pre-decoding. So what part of its design makes it such a bad choice for this kind of work? FWIW, I'm almost at the point where I can start thinking about doing the PCB designs for the USB floppy disc reader/writer. I've found a solution to the lack of I/Os on the microcontroller (which involves adding a second CPLD to act as an bus expander - probably over I2C). I'm going to do some testing on the bus expander Verilog code tonight, and update the schematics, then any spare time I get next week will probably be spent working on the PCB artwork. My intention is to take a weekend off work at some point in the next month to build up the prototype and do some coding and testing. If all goes well, I might do a small production run in November, depending on interest. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. Phil, I have seen the SPS website you mentioned and read this thread but for the life of me I cannot understand why the Catweasel would be unsuitable for archiving vintage computer floppy disks. If fact, I think a Catweasels raw "bit dump" would be the idea archiving format since it records all the details found on the track. Maybe wrap the raw data in a container format with metadata like the DMK. With Catweasel, you can see everything on the track clock, data, junk, etc. Whatever is there you can see it in the raw data. Once you have the raw bit dump you could make near identical copies or write programs to extract the data files, work with emulators, etc. Regardless of the SPS position, I know some people are already using the Catweasel for archiving vintage computers. Tim Mann's software pretty much covers the almost the whole soft sector disk format spectrum and Jim Battle made a SOL-20/PTDOS hard sector disk imaging program. I think someone else made a program to archive Data General disks. Catweasel seems like the way to go to me. If there is something else out there as good, especially for the hard sector disks, I would certainly like to hear about it. Has anyone tried Disk2FDI on any hard sector formats? It sounds interesting and inexpensive if it works. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 18 01:24:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:24:20 -0400 Subject: Apps with other functions, was: Re: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <46EF30F6.3090608@gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> <46EEF962.3010806@mdrconsult.com> <46EF30F6.3090608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2007, at 9:59 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an >>> editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail >>> client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, >>> etc... >>> >>> Somewhat older that Netscape. Caused more flamewars, too. (Hope >>> I'm >>> not starting one here!!!) >> Oooh, yeah... >> That block of code would be a great OS if it had a decent text >> editor. > > Am I on crack, or do I indeed remember someone having ported vi to > emacs? Emacs has had several vi emulation modes for a very long time. At least two of those are part of the standard distribution. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 18 01:25:37 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:25:37 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> References: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <75B29BF4-A82A-4269-870E-DF3FE00530C2@neurotica.com> On Sep 17, 2007, at 10:43 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> I met a guy with 3,000 Apple //e machines > > I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really > hard to believe? > > WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? Massively parallel processing! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 18 01:26:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:26:21 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: References: <004101c7f99d$e06a40f0$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <19815582-DA53-4296-B037-86539A4E1EDC@neurotica.com> On Sep 17, 2007, at 11:08 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> A map would be more valuable! I got lost in the aisles of his >> warehouse >> once. It was like life-sized Maze Craze. > > In Bakersfield, there used to be a life-sized maze called "Maze > Craze". > It was knocked down years ago to build a WalMart. You've just summed up our country's "new culture" in two sentences. *spit* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 01:30:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:30:19 -0400 Subject: Apps with other functions, was: Re: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> <46EEF962.3010806@mdrconsult.com> <46EF30F6.3090608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EF707B.9010404@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 17, 2007, at 9:59 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an >>>> editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail >>>> client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, >>>> etc... >>>> >>>> Somewhat older that Netscape. Caused more flamewars, too. (Hope I'm >>>> not starting one here!!!) >>> Oooh, yeah... >>> That block of code would be a great OS if it had a decent text editor. >> >> Am I on crack, or do I indeed remember someone having ported vi to emacs? > > Emacs has had several vi emulation modes for a very long time. At > least two of those are part of the standard distribution. That's not what I meant. Someone had rewritten a basic vi in LISP and ran it on emacs. It was perverse. Peace... Sridhar From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Sep 18 02:20:17 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:20:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. In-Reply-To: <000b01c7f97e$1665bbf0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <000b01c7f97e$1665bbf0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <20070918081854.I28117@plum.flirble.org> On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Andrew Back wrote: >> Speaking of which does anyone know if VMS can live without >> page >> and swap files? Somehow it doesn't seem likely... > > The OpenVMS VAX CDs from V7.1 onwards (or thereabouts) > were bootable (from [SYS1] IIRC). I don't recall there being > a requirement for any local storage. > > All unsupported, if I remember correctly. Thanks, I'll give it a go. I guess if that works the next step would be to take the 'write quiet' VMS configuration and copy it into a r/w accessed SimH disk file, in order to be able to customise. Andrew From andy at smokebelch.org Tue Sep 18 02:23:06 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:23:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. In-Reply-To: <46EF3380.5090908@gmail.com> References: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> <46EF3380.5090908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070918082045.H28117@plum.flirble.org> On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: <> >> Just wish the thing had a CF slot and thus could take a Microdrive, in >> order that I wouldn't have to worry about frequent writes to flash storage. >> Speaking of which does anyone know if VMS can live without page and swap >> files? Somehow it doesn't seem likely... Trying to work out how I could >> make it do as little writes as possible to the FS, e.g. by disabling opcom, >> auditing and so on. And is there a 'noatime' mount option equivalent for >> ODS? > > Wasn't there someone making an outboard adapter for SD that holds a CF? I > have something similar that holds a CF and plugs into a SmartMedia slot. I see... I'll look out for one. Also been thinking that since there is a hack for the N800 to enable USB host mode I could get a USB->CF adapter and Microdrive, and build them into a tiny case with a rechargeable battery. The N800 wouldn't supply USB power. Andrew From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 18 02:36:37 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:36:37 -0800 Subject: Cauzin effect In-Reply-To: <46EF063A.4AEE70F4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000801c7f970$f50a3a10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46EEF64A.F376EACC@cs.ubc.ca> <6.2.3.4.2.20070917165942.0542b438@mail> <46EF063A.4AEE70F4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46EF8005.7020007@socal.rr.com> > Sorry, kind of thought it had been discussed previously. I could well be wrong > but I'm not sure the Cauzin Softstrip is what I'm recalling though - the refs > linked on wiki refer to CS being 1985, I think there was something being > discussed or proposed by one of the mags years earlier, more in the > IMSAI/Altair era. > I've got a Cauzin reader someplace around here, and I am pretty sure it was the first TWO dimensional type barcode. They must have had a pretty strong patent because it was still in use as recently as about 5 years ago for trade show badges. Anybody know if its tied into the stuff used in shipping now, postage stamps etc.? From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 18 06:47:50 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:47:50 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> Message-ID: <200709181147.l8IBlpgj046036@billy.ezwind.net> On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:43:34 -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> I met a guy with 3,000 Apple //e machines >I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really >hard to believe? >WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? Love is truely blind ? And in some cases self destructive :) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Sep 18 08:55:20 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:55:20 -0300 Subject: New acquisition References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAB7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <036501c7f9fc$38e5af40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > The Dec20 is good but get a load of that DS570. > Now that is really nice This is the BIG BLUE :o) From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Sep 18 12:51:26 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46EF321E.6040402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Sridhar Ayengar > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >>>>> has 3,000 computers > >> > >> He's either BS-ing you, or he means modern-ish PC junk, or both. > > > > Or he's speaking on 'behalf' of somewhere. > > > > e.g. how many machines do the CHM have? Quite a few thousand I'd expect. > > I wouldn't say I have three thousand, but I have at least several hundred. > > My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but > instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people > on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least > that I know of. > Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) Cheers, Bryan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 18 13:24:58 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:24:58 +0100 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <1190139898.6003.1.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 13:51 -0400, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Sridhar Ayengar > > > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > >>>>> has 3,000 computers > > >> > > >> He's either BS-ing you, or he means modern-ish PC junk, or both. > > > > > > Or he's speaking on 'behalf' of somewhere. > > > > > > e.g. how many machines do the CHM have? Quite a few thousand I'd expect. > > > > I wouldn't say I have three thousand, but I have at least several hundred. > > > > My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but > > instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people > > on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least > > that I know of. > > > > Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) Hm. Mine takes 30 gallons per hundred miles to move. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 13:33:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:33:11 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <1190139898.6003.1.camel@elric> References: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> <1190139898.6003.1.camel@elric> Message-ID: <46F019E7.5020206@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 13:51 -0400, Bryan Pope wrote: >> And thusly were the wise words spake by Sridhar Ayengar >>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>>>>> has 3,000 computers >>>>> He's either BS-ing you, or he means modern-ish PC junk, or both. >>>> Or he's speaking on 'behalf' of somewhere. >>>> >>>> e.g. how many machines do the CHM have? Quite a few thousand I'd expect. >>> I wouldn't say I have three thousand, but I have at least several hundred. >>> >>> My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but >>> instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people >>> on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least >>> that I know of. >>> >> Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) > > Hm. Mine takes 30 gallons per hundred miles to move. Of gas or diesel? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 18 13:34:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20070918112307.F40488@shell.lmi.net> Q: How do you end up with so many of a given machine? A1: "I couldn't have one when they first came out. I couldn't have one later, because . . . and then I couldn't have one after that, because . . . Now I can get one! Oh, wow! There's another one! . . . A2: Ever heard of the "Penguin man"? He once was given a toy penguin. Later, somebody saw one just like it, and got it for him, thinking that they would make good bookends. Somebody else saw his penguins and gave him one. Soon, he had lots of penguins. People saw his "collection" of penguins, and got him penguins for Christmas and birthdays, etc. "I don't even LIKE penguins, but now I have the biggest collection in the world." He started selling them at the Alameda flea market. But, worse still, he started buying a few that he knew were rare/valuable. With the current association with penguins as the "mascot" of Linux, his collection is quite valuable. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 18 14:27:54 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:27:54 -0500 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> References: <46EF321E.6040402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> > > My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but > > instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people > > on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least > > that I know of. > > > > Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't know how many times I've surveyed the content of my basement and said "why didn't I collect calculators"! Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 18 13:42:49 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:42:49 +0100 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46F019E7.5020206@gmail.com> References: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> <1190139898.6003.1.camel@elric> <46F019E7.5020206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1190140970.6003.4.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 14:33 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 13:51 -0400, Bryan Pope wrote: > >> And thusly were the wise words spake by Sridhar Ayengar > >>> Jules Richardson wrote: > >>>>>>>> has 3,000 computers > >>>>> He's either BS-ing you, or he means modern-ish PC junk, or both. > >>>> Or he's speaking on 'behalf' of somewhere. > >>>> > >>>> e.g. how many machines do the CHM have? Quite a few thousand I'd expect. > >>> I wouldn't say I have three thousand, but I have at least several hundred. > >>> > >>> My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but > >>> instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people > >>> on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least > >>> that I know of. > >>> > >> Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) > > > > Hm. Mine takes 30 gallons per hundred miles to move. > > Of gas or diesel? Petrol. Switching to the same model of car but a diesel engine would reduce that to about 20 gallons. Horribly off-topic (sorry Jay) but it gets confusing when people on the other side of the pond talk about running their cars on "gas". When we talk about running a car on gas we mean LPG. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 13:50:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:50:57 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> References: <46EF321E.6040402@gmail.com> <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46F01E11.8010405@gmail.com> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: >>> My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but >>> instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people >>> on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least >>> that I know of. >>> >> Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) > > I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't know how many times I've > surveyed the content of my basement and said "why didn't I collect > calculators"! I don't know. I look at my collection and it gives me a nice warm feeling inside. I guess I'm just a packrat. Peace... Sridhar From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 14:00:14 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <874841.2788.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > > > > My collection's size isn't primarily due to the > number of machines, but > > > instead because of the size of my machines. And > there are a few people > > > on this list whose collections are the size of > mine or larger, at least > > > that I know of. > > > > > > > Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by > the space it takes up! :) > > I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't > know how many times I've > surveyed the content of my basement and said "why > didn't I collect > calculators"! Yes - and when I ask people for help moving something, someone always asks why I couldn't collect something smaller or lighter - or at least things that don't need three phase power... -Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 18 14:13:24 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:13:24 -0600 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> References: <46EF321E.6040402@gmail.com> <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46F02354.8080806@jetnet.ab.ca> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't know how many times I've > surveyed the content of my basement and said "why didn't I collect > calculators"! Don't worry -- keep collecting. You get too many they just collapse into a small black hole. > Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 18 14:09:47 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:09:47 -0600 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46F019E7.5020206@gmail.com> References: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> <1190139898.6003.1.camel@elric> <46F019E7.5020206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46F0227B.80004@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Of gas or diesel? Beer. :) > Peace... Sridhar From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 18 15:18:57 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:18:57 -0500 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46F01E11.8010405@gmail.com> References: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200709181947.l8IJl5mG037294@billy.ezwind.net> > > I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't know how many times I've > > surveyed the content of my basement and said "why didn't I collect > > calculators"! > > I don't know. I look at my collection and it gives me a nice warm > feeling inside. And when you power them up, they give you a nice warm feeling on the outside! > I guess I'm just a packrat. Oh... I know that feeling. Dave PS: Sometimes when I look at my collection, I get more of a feeling of panic... -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 13:50:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:50:57 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> References: <46EF321E.6040402@gmail.com> <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46F01E11.8010405@gmail.com> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: >>> My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but >>> instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people >>> on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least >>> that I know of. >>> >> Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) > > I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't know how many times I've > surveyed the content of my basement and said "why didn't I collect > calculators"! I don't know. I look at my collection and it gives me a nice warm feeling inside. I guess I'm just a packrat. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 14:04:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:04:12 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <1190140970.6003.4.camel@elric> References: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> <1190139898.6003.1.camel@elric> <46F019E7.5020206@gmail.com> <1190140970.6003.4.camel@elric> Message-ID: <46F0212C.1080807@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>> Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) >>> Hm. Mine takes 30 gallons per hundred miles to move. >> Of gas or diesel? > > Petrol. Switching to the same model of car but a diesel engine would > reduce that to about 20 gallons. Mine would use a lot more fuel than that. I think the last time I had to move my collection it was something like 10-12 times that amount, for only a part of my collection. Plus most of my machines don't fit into a car. I need a 53' tractor-trailer. (Or segmented lorry?) And, even then, it takes more than one load. > Horribly off-topic (sorry Jay) but it gets confusing when people on the > other side of the pond talk about running their cars on "gas". When we > talk about running a car on gas we mean LPG. Sorry about that. It slipped my mind. I usually use "gasoline" when talking to someone outside of North America. Peace... Sridhar From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 18 15:18:57 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:18:57 -0500 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46F01E11.8010405@gmail.com> References: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200709182024.l8IKNLqU041679@billy.ezwind.net> > > I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't know how many times I've > > surveyed the content of my basement and said "why didn't I collect > > calculators"! > > I don't know. I look at my collection and it gives me a nice warm > feeling inside. And when you power them up, they give you a nice warm feeling on the outside! > I guess I'm just a packrat. Oh... I know that feeling. Dave PS: Sometimes when I look at my collection, I get more of a feeling of panic... -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 18 13:46:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:46:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: <200709171943.10707.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 17, 7 07:43:10 pm Message-ID: > Somewhere I think I have a bare keyboard (no keycaps or case, but real=20 > switches as opposed to the junk plastic sheets you get with some these da= > ys), =20 > and it has a ROM-less part in there and an eprom next to it. I've seen many keyboards where the PCB was laid out to take the EPROM (and an address latch in most cases). There was a jumper that selected whether the microcontroller would use its internal ROM or the external one. So you could use a mask-programmed microcontroller, an EPROMed one, or a ROMless microcontroller with a separate EPROM alongside it. Somewhere I have a manual for a keyboard, back when things came with real manuals, which, while it doesn;'t contain the source listing for the firmware, it doess say 'the normal keycode table starts at address , the shifted keycode table at address ' etc. And there's a table of the keys and the offset into each table. It appears you were expected to modify the keycodes... Of course such a manual also cotnains a schematic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 18 13:54:31 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:54:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <575131af0709171807m1b90c8a9n69b460a324ac3ae9@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 18, 7 02:07:41 am Message-ID: > > On 17/09/2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > So with that unit the only way to tell whether that DB25 is an RS232 > > serial interfxce or a TTL level parallel interface is to look at what P= > CB > > is fitted. > > J*s*s wept! Plkease remember that the Facit 4070 paper tape punch was bought by people who tended to Read Th Fine Manual before plugging things in. And would be tempted to check what PCBs were installed. I still want to Read The Fine Manual, but I can't remember the last time anything I bouight came witha Fine Manual. Certianly not anything in the last 15 years. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 18 16:59:15 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:59:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cauzin effect In-Reply-To: <46EF8005.7020007@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <992084.50518.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> errr... be very difficult to tell for sure. An article I read in 80 Micro (I only have issues 1 to 60, so must be between 1980-86) stated their were only 7 types of barcodes. In a recent Lonelygirl15 "episode" (err.. back in June/July?) on YouTube Bree (played by Jessica Rose) stated that there are now 300 types of barcodes. No idea whether that's true or not, but certainly barcodes are everywhere - we use them to register samples at the lab I work at (much quicker to scan a barcode than to manually enter primary data - location, analysis required etc.) I'm not entirely sure how they can differ that much as they are essentially visual binary, with special markers to mark the start and beginning of the barcode. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mike Ford wrote: > Sorry, kind of thought it had been discussed previously. I could well be wrong > but I'm not sure the Cauzin Softstrip is what I'm recalling though - the refs > linked on wiki refer to CS being 1985, I think there was something being > discussed or proposed by one of the mags years earlier, more in the > IMSAI/Altair era. > I've got a Cauzin reader someplace around here, and I am pretty sure it was the first TWO dimensional type barcode. They must have had a pretty strong patent because it was still in use as recently as about 5 years ago for trade show badges. Anybody know if its tied into the stuff used in shipping now, postage stamps etc.? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 18 16:11:06 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:11:06 +0100 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46F0212C.1080807@gmail.com> References: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> <1190139898.6003.1.camel@elric> <46F019E7.5020206@gmail.com> <1190140970.6003.4.camel@elric> <46F0212C.1080807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1190149866.6093.2.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 15:04 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>>> Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) > >>> Hm. Mine takes 30 gallons per hundred miles to move. > >> Of gas or diesel? > > > > Petrol. Switching to the same model of car but a diesel engine would > > reduce that to about 20 gallons. > > Mine would use a lot more fuel than that. I think the last time I had > to move my collection it was something like 10-12 times that amount, for > only a part of my collection. Plus most of my machines don't fit into a > car. I need a 53' tractor-trailer. (Or segmented lorry?) And, even > then, it takes more than one load. I *think* I could fit at least one 40" rack into the back of my car. Possibly two, side-by-side. Previously I've fitted approximately 750kg of kit into the saloon version. In fact a picture is worth 1000 words: http://www.gjcp.net/cxes.jpg When I picked up a load of stuff from Matt London a couple of years ago, I went down in the silver one (didn't have the white one then), with the back seat removed. The entire car was filled, leaving me just enough space to drive (and even then only if I didn't want 1st or 2nd very often). One thing that will always stick in my mind is the creaks and groans as the hydraulics took 30 seconds to lift off the floor... Gordon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 18 16:09:51 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:09:51 -0700 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org---snip--- > > > > My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but > > instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people > > on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least > > that I know of.> > > > Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :)> Hi I have a 20 foot container with shelves and a small walk space. about 15 percent is old radios. The reset is computer related. I'd estimate that about 75% of my computer collection is inside the container. As I recall, the container is 8X8X20. I have stiff to the ceiling as well as some across the top of the walk way such that one has to duck in places. One can do the math. Not as big as many but still a nice collection. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf?. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 18 17:23:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:23:36 -0600 Subject: PS/2 Interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F04FE8.9050909@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I still want to Read The Fine Manual, but I can't remember the last time > anything I bouight came witha Fine Manual. Certianly not anything in the > last 15 years. You mean the one sheet of rice paper with instructions in Chinese1,Chinese2,and Generic English. > -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 18 17:29:53 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:29:53 +0100 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003c01c7fa43$72dc6df0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jeff Walther wrote: [snip description of carbon arc, mains power and hand-held clothes pegs :-)] > I don't recall the instructions saying anything about not looking > directly at the arc. Perhaps this method doesn't generate enough > UV to be useful/harmful? Perhaps the odds of surviving long enough for UV exposure to be an issue turned out to be quite low :-) At least over here in the 240Vac world. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 18/09/2007 11:53 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 13:50:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:50:57 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> References: <46EF321E.6040402@gmail.com> <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46F01E11.8010405@gmail.com> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: >>> My collection's size isn't primarily due to the number of machines, but >>> instead because of the size of my machines. And there are a few people >>> on this list whose collections are the size of mine or larger, at least >>> that I know of. >>> >> Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) > > I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't know how many times I've > surveyed the content of my basement and said "why didn't I collect > calculators"! I don't know. I look at my collection and it gives me a nice warm feeling inside. I guess I'm just a packrat. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 18 17:58:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:58:36 -0700 Subject: Help identifying a keyboard? In-Reply-To: References: <200709171943.10707.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 17, 7 07:43:10 pm, Message-ID: <46EFF5AC.16328.1ED83E82@cclist.sydex.com> If the 40-pin DIP on the board does not have Vcc and GND connected to "corner" pins (40 and 20, respectively), it's probably one of the 'standard" keyboard chips by GI or NSC. The MM57499N that I mentioned was very common in terminals in the late 70s and the early 80s. Directly addressed a keyboard matrix with 2-key rollover, had LED output pins and serial output interface. But the power on both GI and NSC keyboard chips were at "non-corner" pins, such as 5 and 22. During the aforementioned time, uC's like the 8048/8051 were fairly expensive, particularly when compared to a "for purpose" IC. Just guessin', Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 18 13:49:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:49:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] In-Reply-To: <200709171950.25833.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Sep 17, 7 07:50:25 pm Message-ID: > > On Monday 17 September 2007 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > > When I think about it, the MITS 8800 had connector punchouts for DB25 > > > *only* in the back panel. DB25 seemed to be the lingua franca back > > > then for hobbyist interfaces. If one had an 8" floppy drive, one ran > > > the ribbon cable right through the crack between the back panel and > > > the case cover directly to the controller card(s). No DD50s. > > > > I have an S100 amchine called a CASU Super C. It contains a Cromemco CP= > U > > board, some other stnadard 64K RAM bvoard, a Micromation Doubler disk > > controller and CASU-designed boot ROM and seiral interface boards. > > > > The disk drive (a Persci) is in a separate box. The 50 wire interface > > cable is split down the middle adn connected to a pair of DB25s... > > I have a Cromemco "System 3" (?). It also has a Persci drive in it, a d= > ual. =20 > Is that what yours is? My machine is clearly not a Cromemco anything. The cases (separate box for the drives), PSUs, backplane and some of the boards are made by CASU in the UK But yes, my Persci drive is a dual-disk unit. 4 heads on a voice coil positioner. And motors to eject the disks. > There's apparently some sort of a problem with mine, as the floppy which= > was=20 > in it when I got it had been tried so much and for so long that the initi= > al=20 > tracks were completely worn away, and you could see through it. > > On perusing the service data for it, I notice that the drive uses a bunc= > h of=20 > _incandescent_ light bulbs for things like index sensor, etc. I would=20 > imagine that one or more of these is likely to be the problem. Possibly. Typically with a problem like this I hook up the drive exerciser and see just what the drive is, and isn't, doing. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 14:04:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:04:12 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <1190140970.6003.4.camel@elric> References: <20070918175126.BEEB855D9E@mail.wordstock.com> <1190139898.6003.1.camel@elric> <46F019E7.5020206@gmail.com> <1190140970.6003.4.camel@elric> Message-ID: <46F0212C.1080807@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>> Hmmm.. A new way to define ones collection - by the space it takes up! :) >>> Hm. Mine takes 30 gallons per hundred miles to move. >> Of gas or diesel? > > Petrol. Switching to the same model of car but a diesel engine would > reduce that to about 20 gallons. Mine would use a lot more fuel than that. I think the last time I had to move my collection it was something like 10-12 times that amount, for only a part of my collection. Plus most of my machines don't fit into a car. I need a 53' tractor-trailer. (Or segmented lorry?) And, even then, it takes more than one load. > Horribly off-topic (sorry Jay) but it gets confusing when people on the > other side of the pond talk about running their cars on "gas". When we > talk about running a car on gas we mean LPG. Sorry about that. It slipped my mind. I usually use "gasoline" when talking to someone outside of North America. Peace... Sridhar From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 18 15:18:57 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:18:57 -0500 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46F01E11.8010405@gmail.com> References: <200709181834.l8IIYYWG024906@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200709182325.l8INPpor069281@billy.ezwind.net> > > I'm not sure that size if a good thing ...I don't know how many times I've > > surveyed the content of my basement and said "why didn't I collect > > calculators"! > > I don't know. I look at my collection and it gives me a nice warm > feeling inside. And when you power them up, they give you a nice warm feeling on the outside! > I guess I'm just a packrat. Oh... I know that feeling. Dave PS: Sometimes when I look at my collection, I get more of a feeling of panic... -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 18:28:22 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:28:22 -0500 Subject: Magazines on ebay Message-ID: <51ea77730709181628t6e0b6ff3jeddccf6f5ce8156a@mail.gmail.com> For those who collect old Byte and Interface Age mags, I've begun posting my duplicate issues on the 'bay. If you're interested, here's the link to my listings: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZdev*null -- jht From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Sep 18 18:29:18 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:29:18 -0400 Subject: Repro Cromemco joysticks... Message-ID: Hi All, I want to build a couple of reproduction (work alike) Cromemco joystick consoles for two reasons: 1) I don't have any real ones. 2) I'll be able to let the "unwashed masses" (my children included) play various games with worrying about them getting destroyed. To this end, I've looked at the pdf of the manual and (to my delight) discovered that I have all of the required parts. Well, almost. Two things: 1) The manual calls for a 45 Ohm QUAM speaker. All I have are plain old run-of-the-mill 8 Ohm internal PC speakers. My ignorance of basic electronics shines through... 30 minutes of googling and I'm not sure what QUAM means. Anyway, can I substitute the speaker? With some modification to the schematic? 2) The manual does not specify the pot values on the joystick. The joysticks I have have 100K Ohm pots (thanks Tim Shoppa!). Is that value correct? Is the value important? Can I adjust for it on the D+7A or in the circuit on the joystick side? Also, an esthetic question: are the joysticks on the original self-centering? Thanks for any help! BTW: Both manuals (joystick console and D+7A card) are in the Harte repository. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1013 - Release Date: 9/17/2007 1:29 PM From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 18:31:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46F02354.8080806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <182428.96131.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Don't worry -- keep collecting. You get too many > they just collapse > into a small black hole. > > Dave Or...you could just power them all up simultaneously... and consequently shut down the power grid on whatever coast you live on :). Woohoo lookit them sparks! "And the rockets red glare...and bombs bursting... LOL LOL LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 18:38:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <106033.17514.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Hirsch wrote: It used to be in a > >> different location and was at probably 2x as big. > > I've been going to MIT for over 13 years and don't > ever remember it being > anywhere but the parking garage. Hmm, maybe I'm in error. I just remember more space for 17 footers and the like. I could swear there was a different location. Went there in oh '96 or '97 methinks. It seemed larger. > That's probably Bill German. He has a retaining > wall outside his house > built from IBM PS2 Mod 80 cases. Quite a collector! > He very well may > give Sellam a run for his money in terms of sheer > volume. He has some interesting stuph. I'll let him talk about his own stuph as he sees fit. Nice guy. I met 2 peeps from NH. Makes me wanna live there (again). > Yesterday's MIT flea? We drove down 240 miles from > Burlington, Vermont. > Lots of vendors, lots of junk. The only vintage > hardware I spotted was a > bastardized S100 box with a bunch of Vector Graphics > and Cromemco boards. > Someone else got it, but I wouldn't have bought it > anyway - too hacked up. Yep, that was the guy looking for space-ship parts. > The NEAR Hamfest is probably going to be more > worthwhile. It's the > weekend of Oct. 12 in Deerfield, NH. Replaces the > now-defunct > Hosstraders. Worthwhile in terms of what? Ham stuff or computers and such? I used to hear about Hosstraders when I was accumulating big monitors. There was a guy in or around Derry (Robert Johnson IIRC) that published "the Cheap VGA" book. Not a very descriptive name, but it was my introduction to cheap workstation fixed frequency (19"+) monitors. Never found a single ~35khz unit though. I still have the tattered thing in mom's garage somewhere. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 18 17:45:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:45:46 -0700 Subject: Cauzin effect In-Reply-To: <992084.50518.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <46EF8005.7020007@socal.rr.com>, <992084.50518.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46EFF2AA.29657.1ECC8244@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2007 at 22:59, Andrew Burton wrote: > An article I read in 80 Micro (I only have issues 1 to 60, so must be between 1980-86) stated their were only 7 types of barcodes. > In a recent Lonelygirl15 "episode" (err.. back in June/July?) on YouTube Bree (played by Jessica Rose) stated that there are now 300 types of barcodes. No idea whether that's true or not, but certainly barcodes are everywhere - we use them to register samples at the lab I work at (much quicker to scan a barcode than to manually enter primary data - location, analysis required etc.) > I'm not entirely sure how they can differ that much as they are essentially visual binary, with special markers to mark the start and beginning of the barcode. Recently on slashdot there was a report of a technology using colors and shapes to fit something like 3GB on a letter-sized sheet of paper. Lotta skepicism expressed on that one. I remember the Paperbytes thing as requiring very little more than an input pin and a phototransistor for scanning. I made my own wand using just such (built into an old felt-tip pen) and wiggled an unused status line on a serial port. A smooth, no-jitter swiping action was required to get the best results. And there were some PBs that I just couldn't read no matter what I tried. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 18 19:01:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:01:24 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <003c01c7fa43$72dc6df0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: , <003c01c7fa43$72dc6df0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com> Jeff Walther wrote: > I don't recall the instructions saying anything about not looking > directly at the arc. Perhaps this method doesn't generate enough > UV to be useful/harmful? >From my misspent youth taking a summer job as a drive-in projectionist, carbon arcs were very impressive. Although some stage spotlights used AC arcs, all of the arcs used in projectors were DC- powered. Usually by a sizeable MG set (40 HP motor), although the smaller houses could get by with 3-phase selenium rectifier setups. Wall-mounted ballast coils and water-cooled electrode holders. The anode (IIRC) was about 1/2" in diameter and perhaps 18" in length, while the cathode was much smaller and usually copper-plated. (Most of the light was radiated from the anode face, so the cathod actually met the anode at about a 30 degree angle so as not to obscure it). An anode would last about 2 reels (40 minutes, give or take). Some of the more clever "cans" used an aperture and phototube assembly to track the face of the anode and adjust the (motorized) feed speed accordingly. Because the can was forced-air ventilated, the arc actually appeared as an upward-pointing flame (I'm sure that was just the incandescent carbon vapor glowing). Observation of the arc was always done by looking at the image projected onto a surface by a pinhole opening. There were "black glass" observation ports, but you were warned not look through them for any amount of time. If you had a watch with a luminescent dial, you could hold it near the black glass window and notice how brightly the face glowed. That probably was the UV. One probably could have erased a whole bunch of EPROMs by putting them inside the can with the arc.... :) Cheers, Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Sep 18 19:21:46 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:21:46 -0700 Subject: WTB/Trade: DECstation 5000/133 memory Message-ID: Hey everyone, I'm looking for 8 or 16 sticks of memory for a DECstation 5000/133. These are 4MB 80-pin 70ns ECC SIMMs. I don't remember the DEC part number for these, alas. If you're interested in a trade, I have a metric buttload (that's a technical term) of MS02-AA DECstation 5000/200 memory I'd be willing to trade. Please let me know if you have any! Regards, -Seth Morabito From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 18 19:42:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:42:28 -0400 Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. In-Reply-To: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:40 PM, Andrew Back wrote: > OK I realise this is cheating slightly but I still thought it was > quite cool that it worked... > > SimH on a Nokia N800: > > http://carrierdetect.com/?p=39 > > VM/370 R6 under Hercules on an N800: > > http://carrierdetect.com/?p=40 That is pretty darned cool. I wish I had put up a web page when I did something similar last year. I have an HP iPaq 3765 (MIPS-based PDA) onto which I installed Linux. I built simh for ARM under Linux on a QEMU-based emulator, and moved the binaries over to the iPaq. Last autumn, I sat on a lounge chair on a cruise ship in the Caribbean hacking RSTS/E with a margarita. That was as close to "heaven" as exists for me on Earth. :-) If anyone wants to try something similar, last year I put the simh ARM binaries on my webserver for download at: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/simh-arm-bin.tar.gz It is an older release of simh (whatever was current last autumn) but it works nicely. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Sep 18 19:48:43 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:48:43 -0700 Subject: WTB/Trade: DECstation 5000/133 memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F5217FD-2851-47D3-A969-6BD77E010606@loomcom.com> On Sep 18, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I don't remember the DEC part number for these, alas. After some digging, I believe these are MS01-CA memory kits I'm looking for. 4MB 80-pin 70ns ECC SIMMs, in pairs. Regards, -Seth From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Sep 18 21:26:49 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:26:49 -0600 Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) In-Reply-To: <46EB2011.5900.BF5E730@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com> <46EB2011.5900.BF5E730@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46F088E9.1050503@brutman.com> Does anybody remember how these connect to a PC or XT? Obviously there is the DB37 which has the signals. On one version of the drive (the 720KB version) there is just the signal cable, and no power pigtail or external power - power must come through the DB37 cable, but the technical reference for the floppy controller doesn't have any pins that provide power. Was there a special card that passed the signal wires through and added +5 and +12 to the DB37 going to the drive? (Maybe on pins 1 - 4, which are supposed to be unused?) On the other version I have there is the power pigtail, which is obviously where the power comes from. The pins on the power pigtail are connected to pins 1 - 4 on the DB37. Mike From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 18 20:04:49 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Carbon arcs (was Re: EPROM Erasers?) In-Reply-To: <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <003c01c7fa43$72dc6df0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709190126.VAA20819@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...drive-in projectionist...carbon arcs...] > Because the can was forced-air ventilated, the arc actually appeared > as an upward-pointing flame (I'm sure that was just the incandescent > carbon vapor glowing). Burning, I'd guess; carbon vapour at just below plasma temperatures is not going to be shy about combining with oxygen - which itself is probably not much cooler - from air. > Observation of the arc was always done by looking at the image > projected onto a surface by a pinhole opening. There were "black > glass" observation ports, but you were warned not look through them > for any amount of time. I bet! I'm reminded of reading of someone doing work that involved some extreme heat sources - testing heat-shielding materials, I think it was - and there was, out in the middle of a desert somewhere, an underground torch whose flame emerged from a hole in the ground. Something like magnesium dust in liquid oxygen, pumped (at well over its flame propagation speed!) through the nozzle...I forget details. Someone photograhed it from some miles away (about as close as the camera would survive) and the picture looks like midnight even though it was high noon; the torch easily outshone anything as piddly as the sun. I imagine the ground was glass for some distance around, shortly after the first burn started.... Not very useful for the home hobbyist with EPROMs to erase. But I always find extremes interesting.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 18 20:57:47 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:57:47 -0600 Subject: Repro Cromemco joysticks... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F0821B.5080509@jetnet.ab.ca> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > 1) The manual calls for a 45 Ohm QUAM speaker. All I have > are plain old run-of-the-mill 8 Ohm internal PC speakers. > My ignorance of basic electronics shines through... > 30 minutes of googling and I'm not sure what QUAM means. > Anyway, can I substitute the speaker? With some modification > to the schematic? I think B.G. micro has 45 ish ohm speakers. They tend to be used in intercoms often I think as the microphone or speaker. Ben alias Woodelf. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 18 20:59:37 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:59:37 -0600 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <003c01c7fa43$72dc6df0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46F08289.8070402@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > One probably could have erased a whole bunch of EPROMs by putting > them inside the can with the arc.... :) You want the data erased ... Not the whole EPROM :) > Cheers, > Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 21:23:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:23:25 -0400 Subject: WTB/Trade: DECstation 5000/133 memory In-Reply-To: <8F5217FD-2851-47D3-A969-6BD77E010606@loomcom.com> References: <8F5217FD-2851-47D3-A969-6BD77E010606@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <46F0881D.4060706@gmail.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > > On Sep 18, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> I don't remember the DEC part number for these, alas. > > After some digging, I believe these are MS01-CA memory kits I'm looking > for. > > 4MB 80-pin 70ns ECC SIMMs, in pairs. On a tangent, I'm looking for as many MS02-CA memories as I can lay my hands on. I'm trying to build out some DECstation 5000/260s. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 21:25:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:25:00 -0400 Subject: Carbon arcs (was Re: EPROM Erasers?) In-Reply-To: <200709190126.VAA20819@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <003c01c7fa43$72dc6df0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com> <200709190126.VAA20819@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46F0887C.1040504@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: > I'm reminded of reading of someone doing work that involved some > extreme heat sources - testing heat-shielding materials, I think it was > - and there was, out in the middle of a desert somewhere, an > underground torch whose flame emerged from a hole in the ground. > Something like magnesium dust in liquid oxygen, pumped (at well over > its flame propagation speed!) through the nozzle...I forget details. Aren't there many reports of people able to see the bones in their hands as clear as day with their eyes closed when within a certain distance of an atomic bomb flash? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 18 21:28:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <003c01c7fa43$72dc6df0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070918192738.C65084@shell.lmi.net> > > I don't recall the instructions saying anything about not looking > > directly at the arc. Perhaps this method doesn't generate enough > > UV to be useful/harmful? Perhaps the writer gave up his writing career due to failing eyesight, before he got around to writing that warning From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Sep 18 21:33:59 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:33:59 -0400 Subject: Repro Cromemco joysticks... In-Reply-To: <46F0821B.5080509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: woodelf wrote: > > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > 1) The manual calls for a 45 Ohm QUAM speaker. All I have > > are plain old run-of-the-mill 8 Ohm internal PC speakers. > > My ignorance of basic electronics shines through... > > 30 minutes of googling and I'm not sure what QUAM means. > > Anyway, can I substitute the speaker? With some modification > > to the schematic? > > I think B.G. micro has 45 ish ohm speakers. > They tend to be used in intercoms often I think as the microphone > or speaker. OK, I see 32 Ohm (what's 13 Ohms between friends?)... the price is right. Are they QUAM? Thanks, Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1013 - Release Date: 9/17/2007 1:29 PM From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 18 21:34:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) In-Reply-To: <46F088E9.1050503@brutman.com> References: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com> <46EB2011.5900.BF5E730@cclist.sydex.com> <46F088E9.1050503@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20070918193034.I65084@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Does anybody remember how these connect to a PC or XT? > Obviously there is the DB37 which has the signals. On one version of > the drive (the 720KB version) there is just the signal cable, and no > power pigtail or external power - power must come through the DB37 > cable, but the technical reference for the floppy controller doesn't > have any pins that provide power. Was there a special card that passed > the signal wires through and added +5 and +12 to the DB37 going to the > drive? (Maybe on pins 1 - 4, which are supposed to be unused?) > > On the other version I have there is the power pigtail, which is > obviously where the power comes from. The pins on the power pigtail are > connected to pins 1 - 4 on the DB37. Some of the EARLY 5150 cases (mine had a white power switch, with a black power supply), had a knock-out for a DB25 and a small round knock-out that we presumed was for cabling power to external drives (which would be a bad idea with a 63.5 W power supply). They also had an additional drive mounting screw up from the bottom. Eventually IBM realized that that wasn't such a good idea - prob'ly after a few got tightened enough to warp drive castings? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Sep 18 21:37:05 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:37:05 -0400 Subject: Repro Cromemco joysticks... In-Reply-To: <46F0821B.5080509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: woodelf wrote: > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > 1) The manual calls for a 45 Ohm QUAM speaker. All I have > > are plain old run-of-the-mill 8 Ohm internal PC speakers. > > My ignorance of basic electronics shines through... > > 30 minutes of googling and I'm not sure what QUAM means. > > Anyway, can I substitute the speaker? With some modification > > to the schematic? > > I think B.G. micro has 45 ish ohm speakers. Wait a sec... (light comes on)... Is QUAM a brand name? Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1013 - Release Date: 9/17/2007 1:29 PM From john at guntersville.net Tue Sep 18 21:41:26 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:41:26 -0500 Subject: Repro Cromemco joysticks... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F08C56.4050603@guntersville.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >>Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> >> >>>1) The manual calls for a 45 Ohm QUAM speaker. All I have >>> are plain old run-of-the-mill 8 Ohm internal PC speakers. >>> My ignorance of basic electronics shines through... >>> 30 minutes of googling and I'm not sure what QUAM means. >>> Anyway, can I substitute the speaker? With some modification >>> to the schematic? >> >>I think B.G. micro has 45 ish ohm speakers. >>They tend to be used in intercoms often I think as the microphone >>or speaker. > > > OK, I see 32 Ohm (what's 13 Ohms between friends?)... > the price is right. Are they QUAM? > > Thanks, > Bill > > QUAM is a brand name. Very good low cost speakers and very good communications speakers for two way stuff. John From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 18 21:56:31 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:56:31 -0400 Subject: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) In-Reply-To: <01C7F98E.9CFC4840@mandr71> References: <01C7F98E.9CFC4840@mandr71> Message-ID: <200709182256.31560.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 17 September 2007 23:54, M H Stein wrote: > -----------------Original Message: > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:50:25 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Subject: Re: PS/2 Interface (was: Wang 300 Calc] > > On Monday 17 September 2007 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have an S100 amchine called a CASU Super C. It contains a Cromemco CPU > > board, some other stnadard 64K RAM bvoard, a Micromation Doubler disk > > controller and CASU-designed boot ROM and seiral interface boards. > > > > The disk drive (a Persci) is in a separate box. The 50 wire interface > > cable is split down the middle adn connected to a pair of DB25s... > > I have a Cromemco "System 3" (?). It also has a Persci drive in it, a > dual. Is that what yours is? > > There's apparently some sort of a problem with mine, as the floppy which > was in it when I got it had been tried so much and for so long that the > initial tracks were completely worn away, and you could see through it. > > On perusing the service data for it, I notice that the drive uses a bunch > of _incandescent_ light bulbs for things like index sensor, etc. I would > imagine that one or more of these is likely to be the problem. > > I'd deferred working on it because you can't do much with it in the > computer case, and I needed to make some sort of extension for the power > cable to the drive, which was a rather odd connector... > > Nice machine, in that the S-100 card cage pulls out like a drawer. Too > bad it's not working. > > ------------Reply: > Lots of luck with that Persci; nice and fast when they worked, but... > My 3s all have Tandon singles; slower but infinitely more reliable. I do seem to remember something about the access time (?) on that drive being pretty quick... > You probably know, but the controller can use both 5 1/4 and 8" drives; Yup. > it's sometimes convenient to hook up a known good 5 1/4 drive to check out > the rest of the system and get it up & running before you dig into the 8". > Also makes it easier to make disks from PC images if you need them. It's been a really long time since I played with it, but I remember the rest of the system working okay, more or less. There's a CPU board and a 64K RAM board in there, besides the FDC (which if I'm remembering right also has the printer port on it). Does 16FDC sound right? > If there's no HD you might have trouble finding 12V though & need a > separate supply or regulator; an external powered 5 1/4 disk in a nice > enclosure is a useful peripheral for a System3. I suppose I could rig one up, but I don't know about hacking together a BIOS for that machine. I never did get into that stuff all that much. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdg3rd at comcast.net Tue Sep 18 22:10:23 2007 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:10:23 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 50 Message-ID: <091920070310.5671.46F0931F0000DC7D0000162722070009530B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology. Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested levels of files were found. For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit http://ses.symantec.com/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Sep 18 23:58:55 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:58:55 -0600 Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) In-Reply-To: <20070918193034.I65084@shell.lmi.net> References: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com> <46EB2011.5900.BF5E730@cclist.sydex.com> <46F088E9.1050503@brutman.com> <20070918193034.I65084@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46F0AC8F.50805@brutman.com> I found a little treasure trove of info .. I'm happier now. Models of the 4865 for the AT have just a DB37 connector. They are supposed to get power and signal from an additional card that goes into the machine, as an AT normally doesn't have an external floppy port. Models of the 4865 for the PC and XT have the pigtail power connector. There is a Y cable to split power from inside the machine to the drive, and a bracket that accommodates the new power plug that is needed by the pigtail connector. I traced the voltages out already, but getting confirmation was nice. If anybody ever has a desire to connect a 4865 to something, let me know. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 18 23:12:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:12:16 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <20070918192738.C65084@shell.lmi.net> References: , <46F00464.28345.1F11BF71@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070918192738.C65084@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46F03F30.24355.1FF768EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2007 at 19:28, Fred Cisin wrote: > Perhaps the writer gave up his writing career due to failing eyesight, > before he got around to writing that warning Perhaps he was a monk detailed with maintaining the arc--remember "A Canticle for Liebowitz?" Gotta watch out for them "negative twists of nothingness"... :) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 18 23:13:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:13:39 -0700 Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) In-Reply-To: <46F088E9.1050503@brutman.com> References: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com>, <46EB2011.5900.BF5E730@cclist.sydex.com>, <46F088E9.1050503@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46F03F83.2819.1FF8ACE9@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2007 at 20:26, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > On the other version I have there is the power pigtail, which is > obviously where the power comes from. The pins on the power pigtail are > connected to pins 1 - 4 on the DB37. Compaticards (at leat the IV) have 4 jumpers to optionally apply power to those pins on the external drive connector. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 18 23:33:41 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:33:41 -0700 Subject: EPROM Erasers? Message-ID: > From: arcarlini at iee.org> > Jeff Walther wrote:> [snip description of carbon arc, mains power and hand-held clothes pegs> :-)]> > > I don't recall the instructions saying anything about not looking> > directly at the arc. Perhaps this method doesn't generate enough> > UV to be useful/harmful?> > Perhaps the odds of surviving long enough for UV exposure to be an issue> turned out to be quite low :-) At least over here in the 240Vac world.> > Antonio> Hi I see people talking about looking into a UV light source. If you are worried about the internals of your eye, don't worry. The cornea will absorb the UV for you. Then, you may need cornea surgery to replace your damaged cornea. It doesn't matter if you are looking directly into a UV light source, it is just if there is a direct line between your eye and the UV source. People don't understand microwave ovens either. It isn't looking into the microwave that is the problem, it is getting your eyes close to a leaky microwave seal. You can look into a microwave oven as much as you like as long as you don't get too close. With microwaves it is the inside of the eye that is damaged. As was pointed out, the instructions didn't mention electrical shock either. As I stated before, it is the temperature that creates the UV. If it looks blue-white, it is most likely producing UV as well. If it is yellow or orange, it is most likely not. Also remember that little UV is reflected from surfaces. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From pdp11 at saccade.com Wed Sep 19 00:25:42 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:25:42 -0700 Subject: Seven segment display history Message-ID: <0JOL00L2EOIXK8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> One thing I've always been really curious about is who invented the seven segment display. Not a particular implementation of it, but the graphic design concept that seven bars are all you need to display the digits 0 - 9. I'd always assumed it was something that originated from the creation of electronic calculators. The first Friden EC-130 for example, uses seven segment patterns on a CRT (machines prior to that used Nixie tubes). Well, leave it to Don Knuth to dig up a much older reference. While browsing his web pages, I noticed a reference to patent 974,943 by F.W. Wood, issued in 1910(!). It describes an electro-mechanical "Illuminated Announcement and Display Signal" with a segmented display. Wood actually uses eight segments (so his "4" has a slanted top), but other than that, it's exactly the same design as the digits today's cheap watches and calculators. Patent (you may need to register first): http://www.freepatentsonline.com/0974943.pdf Cheers, jp From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Sep 18 02:36:46 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:36:46 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAB6@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Look further down the list for a post entitled "Re: New acquisition" This guy has the the most boo-ti-ful DS570 Decdatasystem I have ever seen. All the right periperials, LA36 console priner, VT crt and what looks like an LP11 line printer. Get a load of that lights and switches front panel. I think the DS570 is the 11/70 version. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood Sent: 17 September 2007 17:39 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 A couple of other things have come to mind. DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running under OS/8, RT11 or VMS They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often included training, installation and maintenance. There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD Arithmetic Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to > get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean > packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about > 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs here: > http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does > anyone have any background information on them? > Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no > toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to > these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. Tim. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Sep 18 02:38:20 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:38:20 +0100 Subject: New acquisition Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAB7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> The Dec20 is good but get a load of that DS570. Now that is really nice Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 18 September 2007 05:00 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General at shiresoft.com Subject: Re: New acquisition At 8:47 PM -0700 9/17/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >Hi, > >I just wanted to let y'all know that I recently acquired a DEC 2065. >I put up a quick web page of how my shop is being reorganized to >accommodate the new "toy". Warning this is not a permanent location >(ie if you link to it you may not find it in a month). > >http://web.mac.com/ggs17/site Drop the site from the URL and it will work... http://web.mac.com/ggs17 I'm not sure, if I'm jealous, or relieved that I'm not the one trying to take care of that BEAUTIFUL system! What are you going to run on it? What were you running on the KL10? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Tue Sep 18 04:12:54 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:12:54 +0100 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <46EEDCC7.19162.1A8F02E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> <46EEDCC7.19162.1A8F02E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709181012.54259.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Tuesday 18 September 2007 04:00:07 Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Sep 2007 at 22:43, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really > > hard to believe? > > > > WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? > > People are strange, particularly when it comes to collecting. I knew > a fellow with 100,000 wheat-head US pennies. He claimed they were > rare... Well yeah. They *are* rare outside his house, because he's got them all. Artificial scarcity (just like the scarcity of on-topic in this thread) Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 18 08:42:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:42:32 -0400 Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. Message-ID: <0JOK00ABTGQB2TKA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Handheld VAX and System/370. > From: Andrew Back > Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:23:06 +0100 (BST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > ><> > >>> Just wish the thing had a CF slot and thus could take a Microdrive, in >>> order that I wouldn't have to worry about frequent writes to flash storage. >>> Speaking of which does anyone know if VMS can live without page and swap >>> files? Somehow it doesn't seem likely... Trying to work out how I could >>> make it do as little writes as possible to the FS, e.g. by disabling opcom, >>> auditing and so on. And is there a 'noatime' mount option equivalent for >>> ODS? VMS cannot live without page and swap. What you can do is maximize the memory it has to reduces the need to psge/swap. >> Wasn't there someone making an outboard adapter for SD that holds a CF? I >> have something similar that holds a CF and plugs into a SmartMedia slot. can't help on that. Allison From HGoff at 2-10.com Tue Sep 18 11:08:42 2007 From: HGoff at 2-10.com (Howard Goff) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:08:42 -0600 Subject: Apple IIc+ boot disk for DOS3.3 Message-ID: <0ACBCFEEC7BA1C438C50256C36E0D4314C0E6A@02PRWIEM01.hbw.local> Do you stock this diskette? From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Sep 18 14:47:09 2007 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:47:09 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAB5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAB5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <6ECA7997275E4B0EBA016EA898CF5A4F@PlopPlop> Hi, Yes it was indeed a DIBOL based machine. I think it was used as a business administration system of some sort, possibly for the printing industry. When I viewed the machine, it was deeply buried under boxes of paperwork and so I've not had a chance to fully inspect the CPU cabinet. The reason for having to crane it out is that the machine is on the first floor of the office building it is stored in and I decided the few hundred pounds it would cost to hire a crane were considerably less than the back surgery I would require if I attempted to get it down the constricted stair cases I was faced with. Plus I could get it out in one piece rather than having to dismantle. Luckily the build has a nice large (reinforced) flat roof, so should be a case of wheeling it out and craning it down. I'm still suspecting the machine to be an 11/34 as I couldn't see any sign of a full switched console so suspect there is a keypad hidden away somewhere. Regardless it will be a nice machine to add to my growing haul of PDPs and VAXes (upto 40 now) Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might be worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc Thanks, Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:38 PM Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 >A couple of other things have come to mind. > > DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running under > OS/8, RT11 or VMS > > They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often > included training, installation > and maintenance. > > There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or > DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. > > *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD Arithmetic > > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa > Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > >> Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to >> get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean >> packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about >> 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs > here: >> http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > >> I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does >> anyone have any background information on them? > >> Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no >> toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to >> these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. > > That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will > find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote > console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC > maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm > sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the > maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find > that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. > > Tim. > > > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Tue Sep 18 22:29:32 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:29:32 -0700 Subject: Handheld VAX and System/370. In-Reply-To: References: <20070917233424.T28117@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: Hi Dave, > I have an HP iPaq 3765 (MIPS-based PDA) onto which I I believe the Ipaq 3765 is StrongARM based? That makes it a lot easier to run ARM binaries. ;-) Cheers, Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 5:42 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Handheld VAX and System/370. > > On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:40 PM, Andrew Back wrote: > > OK I realise this is cheating slightly but I still thought it was > > quite cool that it worked... > > > > SimH on a Nokia N800: > > > > http://carrierdetect.com/?p=39 > > > > VM/370 R6 under Hercules on an N800: > > > > http://carrierdetect.com/?p=40 > > That is pretty darned cool. I wish I had put up a web > page when I did something similar last year. > > I have an HP iPaq 3765 (MIPS-based PDA) onto which I > installed Linux. I built simh for ARM under Linux on a > QEMU-based emulator, and moved the binaries over to the iPaq. > Last autumn, I sat on a lounge chair on a cruise ship in the > Caribbean hacking RSTS/E with a margarita. That was as close > to "heaven" as exists for me on Earth. :-) > > If anyone wants to try something similar, last year I put > the simh ARM binaries on my webserver for download at: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/simh-arm-bin.tar.gz > > It is an older release of simh (whatever was current last > autumn) but it works nicely. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 19 01:38:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:38:32 -0700 Subject: Seven segment display history In-Reply-To: <0JOL00L2EOIXK8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> References: <0JOL00L2EOIXK8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <46F06178.373.207D5150@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2007 at 22:25, J. Peterson wrote: > Patent (you may need to register first): > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/0974943.pdf ...Or skip the registration and crank the patent number in here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm --Chuck "They're from the Government and they're here to help you..." From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 19 02:01:38 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:01:38 -0700 Subject: Seven segment display history References: <0JOL00L2EOIXK8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <46F0C953.8DD62A8@cs.ubc.ca> "J. Peterson" wrote: > > One thing I've always been really curious about is who invented the > seven segment display. Not a particular implementation of it, but > the graphic design concept that seven bars are all you need to > display the digits 0 - 9. I'd always assumed it was something that > originated from the creation of electronic calculators. The first > Friden EC-130 for example, uses seven segment patterns on a CRT > (machines prior to that used Nixie tubes). > > Well, leave it to Don Knuth to dig up a much older reference. While > browsing his web pages, I noticed a reference to patent 974,943 by > F.W. Wood, issued in 1910(!). It describes an electro-mechanical > "Illuminated Announcement and Display Signal" with a segmented > display. Wood actually uses eight segments (so his "4" has a slanted > top), but other than that, it's exactly the same design as the digits > today's cheap watches and calculators. > > Patent (you may need to register first): > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/0974943.pdf I was similarly curious and had looked into it a little further back when we were discussing the Apollo Guidance Computer and it's display. I too had been surprised by the early patent. I had been wondering if the illuminated displays of the AGC contributed to popularising the idea and helped kicked off the development of those other forms (incand./vacuum-flourescent/LED/gas-discharge/etc.) which came along late-60s/early-70s in calculators, but I forgot about the EC-130 which pre-dates the AGC. Don't have a ref or example but I think that one of the first practical uses of segmented numeric displays was for large electro-mechanical or illuminated sports/racetrack scoreboards back in the 30's or 40's. I could swear I've seen them in movies from the era. From pdp11 at saccade.com Wed Sep 19 02:11:43 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:11:43 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/45 Console on eBay In-Reply-To: <20070918193034.I65084@shell.lmi.net> References: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com> <46EB2011.5900.BF5E730@cclist.sydex.com> <46F088E9.1050503@brutman.com> <20070918193034.I65084@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200709190712.l8J7CCOp037520@billy.ezwind.net> There's a PDP-11/45 console for sale on eBay. http://tinyurl.com/22jrue What's interesting is who's selling it: "I am the designer of this bit of computer history. It was in the days when computer architects wanted direct register access from the operator's console. It was a time of hand-keying in boot codes and other unbelievable tedious computer operations. It was also the time when customers expected more expensive computers to have more lights and switches. This was the zenith of DEC consoles (shared by the PDP11/70 18 months later). The innovation in this console was that the switch handle design was symmetrical and functioned equally well moving up from center or down from center. The Industrial Designer assigned to the project was unable to grasp the geometry of this trick, and as the project and electronic lead, I had to show him how to do it. Other than that he created wonderful asethetics and this is a great collectable over 30 years later. The schematic diagrams are available for additional negotiated fee. And so you know, the reason I'm selling this is that I have another. Ask any questions. Have never plugged it in, so don't know what works and what does not. But the logic is very primitive and anything could be easily repaired. Weight 15 pounds with packaging. Now very rare. And the only time you will ever be able to buy this from the designer." Cheers, jp From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Sep 19 02:20:44 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 08:20:44 +0100 Subject: Apple IIc+ boot disk for DOS3.3 In-Reply-To: <0ACBCFEEC7BA1C438C50256C36E0D4314C0E6A@02PRWIEM01.hbw.local> References: <0ACBCFEEC7BA1C438C50256C36E0D4314C0E6A@02PRWIEM01.hbw.local> Message-ID: <1190186444.5827.6.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 10:08 -0600, Howard Goff wrote: > Do you stock this diskette? Somebody probably has it. You've mailed a list of several hundred (thousand?) computer enthusiasts, rather than a shop which might actually stock things. I don't have a copy, as it happens. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Sep 19 02:23:19 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 08:23:19 +0100 Subject: Repro Cromemco joysticks... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1190186599.5827.9.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 22:33 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > > > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > > 1) The manual calls for a 45 Ohm QUAM speaker. All I have > > > are plain old run-of-the-mill 8 Ohm internal PC speakers. > > > My ignorance of basic electronics shines through... > > > 30 minutes of googling and I'm not sure what QUAM means. > > > Anyway, can I substitute the speaker? With some modification > > > to the schematic? > > > > I think B.G. micro has 45 ish ohm speakers. > > They tend to be used in intercoms often I think as the microphone > > or speaker. > > OK, I see 32 Ohm (what's 13 Ohms between friends?)... > the price is right. Are they QUAM? 32 should be fine. You could also stick a load resistor of about 47 ohms in place, and feed the output to an external amplifier. The main reason for 45 ohms is probably because the speaker driver is just a simple transistor driven by an IO pin somewhere. If you used and 8 ohm speaker it would draw too much current and fry the tranny (and possibly pull the 5v rail down as well). Gordon From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Sep 19 02:55:16 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:55:16 -0300 Subject: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) Message-ID: <01C7FA79.615FBEC0@mandr71> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:56:31 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) >> it's sometimes convenient to hook up a known good 5 1/4 drive to check out >> the rest of the system and get it up & running before you dig into the 8". >> Also makes it easier to make disks from PC images if you need them. >It's been a really long time since I played with it, but I remember the rest >of the system working okay, more or less. There's a CPU board and a 64K RAM >board in there, besides the FDC (which if I'm remembering right also has the >printer port on it). Does 16FDC sound right? 16FDC sounds right but this takes us back to the original topic: that DB-25 is the RS-232 console port, not a printer. >> If there's no HD you might have trouble finding 12V though & need a >> separate supply or regulator; an external powered 5 1/4 disk in a nice >> enclosure is a useful peripheral for a System3. >I suppose I could rig one up, but I don't know about hacking together a BIOS >for that machine. I never did get into that stuff all that much. Well, you wouldn't have to hack the BIOS but (assuming you're running CDOS) you'd need a 5 1/4 CDOS image; I think Dave D has some on his site. Good luck. mike From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 19 04:37:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:37:09 +0100 Subject: Seven segment display history In-Reply-To: <0JOL00L2EOIXK8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> References: <0JOL00L2EOIXK8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <46F0EDC5.6000605@yahoo.co.uk> J. Peterson wrote: > Well, leave it to Don Knuth to dig up a much older reference. While > browsing his web pages, I noticed a reference to patent 974,943 by F.W. > Wood, issued in 1910(!). It describes an electro-mechanical "Illuminated > Announcement and Display Signal" with a segmented display. Wood > actually uses eight segments (so his "4" has a slanted top), but other > than that, it's exactly the same design as the digits today's cheap > watches and calculators. I could imagine there being an even older purely-mechanical analogue to be honest; perhaps with segments that could rotate and were white on one side and black on the other, against a black background. It wouldn't be particularly complex to do (a few pushrods and a bunch 'o cams) and would take up a lot less space than the 'reel of numbers + viewing window' of the day. Not suitable for miniaturisation, but easily workable for large display signs. However, I'm not sure when the 'airport'-style displays with a reel of flaps containing the digits (or letters) appeared; they'd be about as compact as a mechanical seven-seg display, but with less maintenance requirement... cheers Jules From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 06:16:37 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIc+ boot disk for DOS3.3 In-Reply-To: <1190186444.5827.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <375864.19377.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 10:08 -0600, Howard Goff > wrote: > > Do you stock this diskette? > > Somebody probably has it. You've mailed a list of > several hundred > (thousand?) computer enthusiasts, rather than a shop > which might > actually stock things. > > I don't have a copy, as it happens. Do you have an external 5 1/4" floppy drive, or are you trying to find a bootable, Dos 3.3 disk on 3 1/2"? Dos 3.3 doesn't support 3 1/2" disks natively, and while I know that there were various hacks and kludges to make Dos 3.3 work on the 3 1/2" disks, I've never worked with them. If you have a 5 1/4" drive, then I can get you a disk... Or are you really looking for ProDOS? ProDOS was developed to take advantage of 3 1/2" disks, hard drives, RAM disks, and all sorts of neat stuff. The IIc+ would have shipped with ProDOS. -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 07:14:50 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 05:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seven segment display history In-Reply-To: <46F0EDC5.6000605@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <586719.87828.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I could imagine there being an even older > purely-mechanical analogue to be > honest; perhaps with segments that could rotate and > were white on one side and > black on the other, against a black background. While definitely newer than the 1910 patent mentioned earlier, I have a mechanical 7 segment clock. I think it was made somewhere in the late 70's/early 80's (woodgrain plastic). From the front, it resembles a run of the mill digital clock, save for the fact that the display is white-orange. Inside is a purely mechanical contrivance with plastic cards with slots cut in them. A light bulb shines through them and "projects" the numbers onto the face. It's really cool, if only for the fact that it's unusual. Not only can you hear the motor changing the numbers, but when the numbers change, they kinda "melt" into one another, as segments don't instantly flick off all at once. It was made by General Electric. My assumption was that they wanted to get the style of the then-expensive digital LED clock, but make it cheap. (motors and mechanical stuff used to actually be cheaper than electronics - remember that?). -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 12:11:14 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:11:14 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709171624.l8HGOHhF030629@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200709171624.l8HGOHhF030629@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > This is off topic, and we should stop, but I don't think this accurate. Network history off-topic? WTF? > Technically the phone system is circuit switched. The ARPAnet did > pioneer the notion of concatenated networks, or a "catanet" (if I recall > correctly) which was dynamically reconfigurable. The original idea was > to create a network which would survive a nuclear blast, which the phone > system would not, at least not it the sense of being dynamically > reconfigurable. Yes, true - if a line went down - hang up and try again! > I think hop by hop routing with dynamic reconfiguration was bit of an > innovation. Very much so - I do not doubt that. However, all that hop-by-hop and reconfiguration stuff was built on Ma Bell's work. Hop by hop? Well, that can be found in the section about how a call is routed from the local exchange, up the hierarchy to the long-lines people, and back down to another local exchange. In a "complex" call, like Ichibutt, NC to Bumbledweeb, ME, there may be four or five hops needed to complete the call. And the reconfiguration? Essentially grabbing on to the ever changing pool of free trunks and long lines. -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 19 09:34:51 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:34:51 -0400 Subject: Apple IIc+ boot disk for DOS3.3 In-Reply-To: <1190186444.5827.6.camel@elric> References: <0ACBCFEEC7BA1C438C50256C36E0D4314C0E6A@02PRWIEM01.hbw.local> <1190186444.5827.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200709191034.51812.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 19 September 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 10:08 -0600, Howard Goff wrote: > > Do you stock this diskette? > > Somebody probably has it. You've mailed a list of several hundred > (thousand?) computer enthusiasts, rather than a shop which might > actually stock things. If they didn't know they were mailing a mailing list, then they're probably not subscribed to it, so they probably never got your response since you didn't CC the original poster... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kth at srv.net Wed Sep 19 10:20:36 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:20:36 -0600 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: <200709181012.54259.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> References: <004001c7f99d$b63ea910$eb4df945@evan> <46EEDCC7.19162.1A8F02E0@cclist.sydex.com> <200709181012.54259.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <46F13E44.9080307@srv.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tuesday 18 September 2007 04:00:07 Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 17 Sep 2007 at 22:43, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> I'm not calling you a liar, but ... does anyone else find that really >>> hard to believe? >>> >>> WHY would someone have 3,000 of the same machine? >>> >> People are strange, particularly when it comes to collecting. I knew >> a fellow with 100,000 wheat-head US pennies. He claimed they were >> rare... >> > > Well yeah. They *are* rare outside his house, because he's got them all. > I'll bet his collection of pennies is worth at least $1000. ;=) > Artificial scarcity (just like the scarcity of on-topic in this thread) > From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 10:46:25 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:46:25 -0400 Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) In-Reply-To: <46F0AC8F.50805@brutman.com> References: <46EB4A1E.9070609@brutman.com> <46EB2011.5900.BF5E730@cclist.sydex.com> <46F088E9.1050503@brutman.com> <20070918193034.I65084@shell.lmi.net> <46F0AC8F.50805@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0709190846k6cbbee78m3a2527ebdd0e7561@mail.gmail.com> On 19/09/2007, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I found a little treasure trove of info .. I'm happier now. > > Models of the 4865 for the AT have just a DB37 connector. They are > supposed to get power and signal from an additional card that goes into > the machine, as an AT normally doesn't have an external floppy port. I've got one of those here (I'm at McGill in Montreal, Canada) I couldn't find a use for it (I hoped to take the drive out to put into a 1581 kit I got earlier this year) so it's free for shipping to anyone who wants it. (please contact me off-list) > I traced the voltages out already, but getting confirmation was nice. > If anybody ever has a desire to connect a 4865 to something, let me know. If noone takes up my offer, I would like to attempt to do something useful with it - maybe build a simple 4865 to A1010 (external Amiga floppy) converter? Should only require a flip-flop - and it'd be useful to me since an A500 ended up donating its drive for my 1581 :-) If you could send me the pinouts, it'd be appreciated!! Joe. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 19 10:33:08 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM Erasers? In-Reply-To: <20070918192738.C65084@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070919153308.9F88255D93@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Fred Cisin > > > > I don't recall the instructions saying anything about not looking > > > directly at the arc. Perhaps this method doesn't generate enough > > > UV to be useful/harmful? > > Perhaps the writer gave up his writing career due to failing eyesight, > before he got around to writing that warning > "Do Not Look Directly Into Laser Beam With Remaining Eye" Cheers, Bryan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 12:46:41 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:46:41 -0400 Subject: did anyone else go to MIT? In-Reply-To: References: <876697.72584.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <20070917150133.B96099@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Yesterday's MIT flea? We drove down 240 miles from Burlington, Vermont. > Lots of vendors, lots of junk. The only vintage hardware I spotted was a > bastardized S100 box with a bunch of Vector Graphics and Cromemco boards. > Someone else got it, but I wouldn't have bought it anyway - too hacked up. Yes, that pile. Quite a few people were VERY interested in that until they found out it was not for sale - then it turned into a shitbox. > In general, all the good stuff goes directly to eBay now. I'm not going > out of my way to make it in October. The show is past its prime and on > the decline (IMHO). Every show I manage to find some decent good items - perhaps you are just too late. Then again, I am generally the second guy in line. Anyway, the real secret to the MIT Flea is not about finding good deals on vendor tables... -- Will From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Sep 19 14:37:51 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:37:51 +0100 Subject: Apple IIc+ boot disk for DOS3.3 In-Reply-To: <200709191034.51812.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0ACBCFEEC7BA1C438C50256C36E0D4314C0E6A@02PRWIEM01.hbw.local> <1190186444.5827.6.camel@elric> <200709191034.51812.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1190230671.18807.5.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 10:34 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 19 September 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 10:08 -0600, Howard Goff wrote: > > > Do you stock this diskette? > > > > Somebody probably has it. You've mailed a list of several hundred > > (thousand?) computer enthusiasts, rather than a shop which might > > actually stock things. > > If they didn't know they were mailing a mailing list, then they're > probably not subscribed to it, so they probably never got your response > since you didn't CC the original poster... Yes, sometimes relevant posts from non-subscribers go through. I think it's usually obvious which these are and, yes, if you've got anything useful to say you should cc the poster if you want them to see it. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 19 15:23:01 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:23:01 -0400 Subject: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) In-Reply-To: <01C7FA79.615FBEC0@mandr71> References: <01C7FA79.615FBEC0@mandr71> Message-ID: <200709191623.01984.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 19 September 2007 03:55, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:56:31 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Subject: Re: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) > > > > >> it's sometimes convenient to hook up a known good 5 1/4 drive to check > >> out the rest of the system and get it up & running before you dig into > >> the 8". Also makes it easier to make disks from PC images if you need > >> them. > > > >It's been a really long time since I played with it, but I remember the > > rest of the system working okay, more or less. There's a CPU board and > > a 64K RAM board in there, besides the FDC (which if I'm remembering > > right also has the printer port on it). Does 16FDC sound right? > > 16FDC sounds right but this takes us back to the original topic: that DB-25 > is the RS-232 console port, not a printer. I seem to remember a whole bunch of DB25 cutouts in the rear panel of that machine... > >> If there's no HD you might have trouble finding 12V though & need a > >> separate supply or regulator; an external powered 5 1/4 disk in a nice > >> enclosure is a useful peripheral for a System3. > > > >I suppose I could rig one up, but I don't know about hacking together a > > BIOS for that machine. I never did get into that stuff all that much. > > Well, you wouldn't have to hack the BIOS but (assuming you're running CDOS) > you'd need a 5 1/4 CDOS image; I think Dave D has some on his site. Good to know. > Good luck. Speaking of which, I just discovered handy a loose-leaf binder labeled "Cromemco Systems Documentation" which has everything I might possibly need in there, including data on all the cards, the drive, and so forth, including schematics and other pertinent technical details. Wouldn't it be nice to get that sort of info with other stuff! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 19 15:25:48 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:25:48 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <200709171624.l8HGOHhF030629@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200709191625.48479.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 19 September 2007 13:11, William Donzelli wrote: > > I think hop by hop routing with dynamic reconfiguration was bit of an > > innovation. > > Very much so - I do not doubt that. However, all that hop-by-hop and > reconfiguration stuff was built on Ma Bell's work. Hop by hop? Well, > that can be found in the section about how a call is routed from the > local exchange, up the hierarchy to the long-lines people, and back > down to another local exchange. In a "complex" call, like Ichibutt, NC > to Bumbledweeb, ME, there may be four or five hops needed to complete > the call. And the reconfiguration? Essentially grabbing on to the ever > changing pool of free trunks and long lines. I never could understand how they managed to do all of that with what was basically electromechanical stuff... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From scheefj at netscape.net Wed Sep 19 15:36:17 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:36:17 -0400 Subject: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <46EECCE6.3080809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> <46EE1288.7030603@msm.umr.edu> <46EECCE6.3080809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46F18841.4040804@netscape.net> Jerome, Your ISP should provide access to an NNTP server as part of your basic service. I just tried to connect to VMSNet groups via my ISP's server using Thunderbird as the client and it worked. The pdp-11 group seems to be the only one that is still active. Jim Jules Richardson wrote: > Golan Klinger wrote: >> This thread is off-topic so please forgive my posting this follow-up. > > It actually got me wondering when apps started really pushing (or > forcing) functionality on users outside of their core reason for > existing (such as a web browser trying to be an email client, or an > email client trying to be a usenet client etc.) > > I suspect that aspect *is* on topic :-) Netscape circa mid-90's is one > of the first culprits I can think of, but doubtless there were others > long before then? (Note I'm not talking about small bundled utility > apps or functionality which is related to the central purpose of an > application - more the cases where something that was recognised as > doing one job suddenly branched out and started offering something > completely different) > > [Not a practice that I agree with at all - memory and disk footprint > often increases, and stability goes down, all for extra functionality > which a separate dedicated app nearly always handles better] > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 19 16:01:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:01:16 -0600 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709191625.48479.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200709171624.l8HGOHhF030629@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200709191625.48479.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46F18E1C.5020202@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I never could understand how they managed to do all of that with what was > basically electromechanical stuff... Some very tricky relays. That is why you have 1 for long distance. I had a book about that -- 1940's ( but it got lost ) and the big thing was automatic dialing. I am not sure but I think on the old non dial phones you could even back then dial your number by tapping the hook on the phone. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 19 16:12:00 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:12:00 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <46F18E1C.5020202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200709171624.l8HGOHhF030629@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200709191625.48479.rtellason@verizon.net> <46F18E1C.5020202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <26D5A3BC-E51E-4B38-AF84-8ED542F3C25A@neurotica.com> On Sep 19, 2007, at 5:01 PM, woodelf wrote: >> I never could understand how they managed to do all of that with >> what was basically electromechanical stuff... > > Some very tricky relays. That is why you have 1 for long distance. > I had a book about that -- 1940's ( but it got lost ) and the big > thing was automatic dialing. I am not sure but I think on the old > non dial phones > you could even back then dial your number by tapping the hook on > the phone. You could; I did it as a child. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 17:32:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:32:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: PS/2 Interface In-Reply-To: <46F04FE8.9050909@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 18, 7 04:23:36 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I still want to Read The Fine Manual, but I can't remember the last time > > anything I bouight came witha Fine Manual. Certianly not anything in the > > last 15 years. > > You mean the one sheet of rice paper with instructions > in Chinese1,Chinese2,and Generic English. A scehamtic diagram looks much the same in any language, so the choice of languages is not the main problem with modern manuals... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 17:39:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:39:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) In-Reply-To: <20070918193034.I65084@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 18, 7 07:34:46 pm Message-ID: > Some of the EARLY 5150 cases (mine had a white power switch, with a black > power supply), had a knock-out for a DB25 and a small round knock-out that > we presumed was for cabling power to external drives (which would be a bad I am sure I once saw a 5160 XT with a power output socket (4 pin) mounted on a palte in place of that removeable blanking plate above the keyboard connecotr. It looked like an official IBM product, not a homebrew. But it wasn't my machine so I couldn't pull the cover to investigate. > idea with a 63.5 W power supply). They also had an additional drive > mounting screw up from the bottom. Eventually IBM realized that that > wasn't such a good idea - prob'ly after a few got tightened enough to warp > drive castings? I've seen PC/XT machines with a drive mounting screw going up from underneath I doubt very much if you'd distort a Tandon TM100 drive chassis casting with that screw. More likely it was a right pain to fit said screw.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 17:10:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:10:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK PDP11 oweners In-Reply-To: <6ECA7997275E4B0EBA016EA898CF5A4F@PlopPlop> from "Tobias Russell" at Sep 18, 7 08:47:09 pm Message-ID: > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might be > worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc Me, for one. I've got (from what I rememebnr (!)) : PD11/10 (5.25" box) PDP11/45 PDP11/34 (3 off) PDP11/24 PDP11/44 LSI11 MINC-11 MIOC23 York Box (BAA11V + SBC21 + RAM + I/O) At least one other Q-bus machine -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 17:54:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:54:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seven segment display history In-Reply-To: <0JOL00L2EOIXK8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> from "J. Peterson" at Sep 18, 7 10:25:42 pm Message-ID: > Well, leave it to Don Knuth to dig up a much older reference. While > browsing his web pages, I noticed a reference to patent 974,943 by > F.W. Wood, issued in 1910(!). It describes an electro-mechanical > "Illuminated Announcement and Display Signal" with a segmented > display. Wood actually uses eight segments (so his "4" has a slanted > top), but other than that, it's exactly the same design as the digits > today's cheap watches and calculators. Somewhat later, but still interesting : I have a book here entitled 'Incandescent and Arc Lighting, Electric Wiring, Headting and Signs' from International Correspondance Schools Ltd. I can't find a copyright date on it, but I would estimate it's from the 1930s. It describes something called a 'Monogram Letter'/'Monogram Sign'. This was a 21-segment (!) alphanumeic display. Each segment was illuminated by a seprate electric light bulb, controlled by a mechancial rotating swtich or by cards floating on a trough of mercury. The segment arrangement is a bit difficult to show in ASCII, but here goes : `- -' |\|/| -o- |/|\| '- - ` Where each ASCII character represents a segment of the display. It's like the 14 segmetn 'starburst' display with the addition of 4 corner segnements, a circlar 'segment' in the very center, and that the top and bottom segmetns are split in half. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 19 21:03:40 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:03:40 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:11:14 EDT." Message-ID: <200709200203.l8K23e6u005187@mwave.heeltoe.com> "William Donzelli" wrote: ... >the call. And the reconfiguration? Essentially grabbing on to the ever >changing pool of free trunks and long lines. I would argue that the routing was (at that time) essentially static. As I understand it CO's were not able to dynamically reroute calls if a trunk failed - that had to be configured in as an alternate path. The catanet model would allow 75% of the network to go away and it would dynamically learn a new way to route to the destination; and the fact that it was packet based and not circuit swithed would mean that it was self healing. Not possible with circuit switches; you have to hang up and redial and hope that an alternate path had been configured in. -brad From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 19 23:23:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:23:07 -0700 Subject: PS/2 Interface In-Reply-To: References: <46F04FE8.9050909@jetnet.ab.ca> from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > > > Tony Duell wrote:> > > > > I still want to Read The Fine Manual, but I can't remember the last time > > > anything I bouight came witha Fine Manual. Certianly not anything in the > > > last 15 years.> > > > You mean the one sheet of rice paper with instructions> > in Chinese1,Chinese2,and Generic English.> > A scehamtic diagram looks much the same in any language, so the choice of > languages is not the main problem with modern manuals...> > -tony Hi Sure, what would 4r9 or 1k5 mean to someone in the US. Even schematic symbols can be entirely different. About the only thing I've seen that doen't seem to change is the wire. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos; more messages; more whatever ? Get MORE with Windows Live? Hotmail?. NOW with 5GB storage. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907 From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Sep 19 23:13:26 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:13:26 -0300 Subject: Anybody in Las Vegas? Message-ID: <01C7FB24.7F362DC0@MSE_D03> Anybody in Las Vegas who'd be willing to help a nice lady doctor who's trying to read some old 5 1/4 WP5.1 disks on her 386 with a flaky FDD? Please? Contact me off-list for her info if you think you can help. Mike in Toronto (a little too far away ;-( From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Sep 19 04:33:41 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:33:41 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BABC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Now that sounds interesting. Where is it? The reason I ask is I have a retired friend who has more video equipment than the BBC. A nice video of it getting craned out would interesting. A couple of points re craning. If there are no eye bolt holes in top of the cabs you need to have a strong base to put it on and then a stretcher bar four rope sling down to the base. Any side pressure will collapse the cab and crush anything inside. I'd tend towards pulling the drives (and anything else fragile) out of the cab. The fact that there's no lights and switches front panel is probably due trying to stop the end user doing something nasty. If I read the runes correctly on other posts then light and switch front panels are around and are a straight swap. I have no fewer than four 11/94's but the KD11J CPU boards were stolen before I got to the machines. An 11/84 CPU (KDJ11-B) + Memory would do but I cant find one at a good price. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell Sent: 18 September 2007 20:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 Hi, Yes it was indeed a DIBOL based machine. I think it was used as a business administration system of some sort, possibly for the printing industry. When I viewed the machine, it was deeply buried under boxes of paperwork and so I've not had a chance to fully inspect the CPU cabinet. The reason for having to crane it out is that the machine is on the first floor of the office building it is stored in and I decided the few hundred pounds it would cost to hire a crane were considerably less than the back surgery I would require if I attempted to get it down the constricted stair cases I was faced with. Plus I could get it out in one piece rather than having to dismantle. Luckily the build has a nice large (reinforced) flat roof, so should be a case of wheeling it out and craning it down. I'm still suspecting the machine to be an 11/34 as I couldn't see any sign of a full switched console so suspect there is a keypad hidden away somewhere. Regardless it will be a nice machine to add to my growing haul of PDPs and VAXes (upto 40 now) Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might be worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc Thanks, Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:38 PM Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 >A couple of other things have come to mind. > > DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running under > OS/8, RT11 or VMS > > They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often > included training, installation > and maintenance. > > There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or > DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. > > *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD Arithmetic > > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa > Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > >> Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to >> get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean >> packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about >> 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs > here: >> http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > >> I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does >> anyone have any background information on them? > >> Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no >> toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to >> these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. > > That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will > find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote > console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC > maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm > sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the > maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find > that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. > > Tim. > > > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From daultman at tx.rr.com Wed Sep 19 19:42:58 2007 From: daultman at tx.rr.com (Don Aultman) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:42:58 -0500 Subject: Goodwill Computerworks Museum Pictures Message-ID: <000001c7fb1f$30fd19c0$dd92b74c@donhome> I just found a post about visiting the Goodwill Computerworks from Aug 2000 while seearching for information on an IBEX 7202 CP/M I have. I have looked at vintage-computer.com and vintage.org, EBay, and general searches many times. Yours is the first I've found referencing this computer I have. Can you tell me more about it? Who might be interested in it and the many programs I have with it? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Sep 20 01:07:42 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 03:07:42 -0300 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever References: <200709171624.l8HGOHhF030629@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200709191625.48479.rtellason@verizon.net> <46F18E1C.5020202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <095501c7fb4d$2c94a0a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > thing was automatic dialing. I am not sure but I think on the old non dial > phones > you could even back then dial your number by tapping the hook on the > phone. You can still do that (!) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Sep 20 02:12:04 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:12:04 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 oweners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1190272324.7836.5.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 23:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might be > > worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc > > Me, for one. I've got (from what I rememebnr (!)) : Showoff... I've got a Baydel OEM PDP11/73, and I bought a set of 11/03 boards from a guy in Australia (snatching them from the grasp of a chip collector in the closing seconds. As ChrisM might say, LOL LOL LOL). The 11/73 basically runs (but I need a copy of the boot ROMs), the 11/03 cards I gave to someone else on the list along with a BA23 case and probably enough bits to cobble together a working system. There's a long and involved story about how I got my PDP11, which I'll write down some time. I nearly got it 15 years ago, but ended up with it anyway. Gordon From classiccmp at eco.li Thu Sep 20 04:31:31 2007 From: classiccmp at eco.li (Dan Kolb) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:31:31 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6ECA7997275E4B0EBA016EA898CF5A4F@PlopPlop> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAB5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <6ECA7997275E4B0EBA016EA898CF5A4F@PlopPlop> Message-ID: <20070920093131.GN3923@hades.eco.li> On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 08:47:09PM +0100, Tobias Russell wrote: > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might be > worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc I've got one, but it doesn't work properly. From what I remember, it claims to be a PDP11/83. At the moment, neither the hard drive nor the floppy drives work, which limits its usefulness a bit. Dan -- Acid -- better living through chemistry. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 19 01:46:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:46:51 -0700 Subject: Calcomp 1043GT plotter in Salem, OR Message-ID: <46F0636B.20540.2084EF12@cclist.sydex.com> Just saw this one on Craigslist: http://eugene.craigslist.org/sys/425978406.html Cheers, Chuck From julian at jnt.me.uk Thu Sep 20 12:18:44 2007 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:18:44 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 oweners In-Reply-To: <1190272324.7836.5.camel@elric> References: <1190272324.7836.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: <46F2AB74.2030904@jnt.me.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 23:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might be >>> worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc >>> >> Me, for one. I've got (from what I rememebnr (!)) : >> Me too. Regrettably I've not had the time to put any of them together, so I don't have a working one, just enough bits to make three 11/73s if I had the time to either assemble the innards of a BA23 (thanks Henk) or sort out an old 18 bit serpentine enclosure... Talking of which, does anyone have a spare BA23 (or similar) that they'd like to sell or swap? There was some traffic earlier about having a meet in London in early ?September - did it happen? Julian From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Sep 20 12:18:58 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:18:58 -0300 Subject: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) Message-ID: <01C7FB91.92857D00@mandr71> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:23:01 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) >On Wednesday 19 September 2007 03:55, M H Stein wrote: >> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:56:31 -0400 >> From: "Roy J. Tellason" >> Subject: Re: Cromemco & Persci drives (was PS/2 interface &c) >> >> (Re: Cromemco System 3) >>> >>>It's been a really long time since I played with it, but I remember the >>> rest of the system working okay, more or less. There's a CPU board and >>> a 64K RAM board in there, besides the FDC (which if I'm remembering >>> right also has the printer port on it). Does 16FDC sound right? >> >> 16FDC sounds right but this takes us back to the original topic: that DB-25 >> is the RS-232 console port, not a printer. >I seem to remember a whole bunch of DB25 cutouts in the rear panel of that >machine... For the real printer port(s) and extra RS-232 ports for I/O or multi-users. >Speaking of which, I just discovered handy a loose-leaf binder >labeled "Cromemco Systems Documentation" which has everything I might >possibly need in there, including data on all the cards, the drive, and so >forth, including schematics and other pertinent technical details. Wouldn't >it be nice to get that sort of info with other stuff! :-) Cromemco were one of the most professional of the computer makers of the day and sold many systems to labs, educational and government users, especially the army, navy & air force, and a big multi-box installation at the NYSE IIRC; mind you, their prices reflected that... Also one of the few who, at least in name, are still around... m From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Sep 20 12:36:29 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:36:29 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:47:09 BST." <6ECA7997275E4B0EBA016EA898CF5A4F@PlopPlop> Message-ID: <200709201736.SAA09950@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tobias Russell said: > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might be > worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc Me too. I've got a Micro 11/73, currently hors de combat awaiting a power supply repair (still cna't trace a schematic, but never mind, I'll manage). -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ama at ugr.es Thu Sep 20 15:56:14 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:56:14 +0200 Subject: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> References: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20070920205614.GB6643@darwin.ugr.es> On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 08:01:46PM -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I would like to post to vmsnet.pdp-11 and alt.sys.pdp11 - can anyone > suggest a server that is available? By the way, I only use Netscape http://www.newsservers.net/ http://freenews.maxbaud.net/ > I have heard that google allows posts to newsgroups, but the interface [...] > Any suggestions would be appreciated! Suggestions: please, please, please, do not use Google to make the newsgroups dirty. :-) Cheers, Angel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From ama at ugr.es Thu Sep 20 16:10:58 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:10:58 +0200 Subject: Apps with other functions, was: Re: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0709171312s25bd0537kde13aed8990f3c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070920211058.GC6643@darwin.ugr.es> On Mon, Sep 17, 2007 at 04:12:39PM -0400, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > How about that editor (or rater, originally a set of macros for an > editor) that implements a LISP interpreter, which can be an e-mail > client, news reader, ELIZA, ftp client, play tetris, be an IDE, etc, Indeed, it has almost everything but a good editor. Fortunately for its users, it has Vi/m emulation. :-) Cheers, Angel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Sep 20 20:51:44 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:51:44 -0500 Subject: Is there a way to post without a fee to newsgroups? In-Reply-To: <20070920205614.GB6643@darwin.ugr.es> References: <46EDC3EA.1010004@compsys.to> <20070920205614.GB6643@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <46F323B0.7030406@oldskool.org> Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > Suggestions: please, please, please, do not use Google to make the > newsgroups dirty. :-) That makes no sense. I post using Google all the time, and my posts now are as they have been for the past 20-odd years: 80-column word-wrapped ASCII. Google doesn't muck up the posts, unless you know something I don't. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From toby at coreware.co.uk Thu Sep 20 03:02:26 2007 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:02:26 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 oweners In-Reply-To: <1190272324.7836.5.camel@elric> References: <1190272324.7836.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: <903455EA9436422795A87445497C1EB9@spasmo> Hi, Well my collection is starting to grow out of control! Here is what I have: 3 (poss 4) 11/34s 11/44 11/05 5 x 11/73s 3 x 11/23s 11/03 11/83 couple of 8a's WP-78 various drives (RL01s,RL02s,RK05s,RX01/02s and lots of RD and SDI winchesters) spares to build up another 10-20 qbus machines (although prob not enough boxes) more microvaxes than I care to remember (mixture of pizza boxes and QBUS machines) On the non DEC front I have an Interdata machine (can't remember the model) and a small collection of Apples/BBC micros My long term aim is to try to get an example of each of the main -11s built. Probably an impossible ambition, but you have to have an aim. I'm hopefully going to secure a couple of 11/70s and an 11/60 shortly to join the collection. I suspect obtaining the older 11/20s,11/35/40s,11/45/50/55 will be the biggest difficulty in completing the line as all of them by now should have secure homes. Cheers, Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 8:12 AM Subject: Re: UK PDP11 oweners > On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 23:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? >> > Might be >> > worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc >> >> Me, for one. I've got (from what I rememebnr (!)) : > > Showoff... > > I've got a Baydel OEM PDP11/73, and I bought a set of 11/03 boards from > a guy in Australia (snatching them from the grasp of a chip collector in > the closing seconds. As ChrisM might say, LOL LOL LOL). > > The 11/73 basically runs (but I need a copy of the boot ROMs), the 11/03 > cards I gave to someone else on the list along with a BA23 case and > probably enough bits to cobble together a working system. > > There's a long and involved story about how I got my PDP11, which I'll > write down some time. I nearly got it 15 years ago, but ended up with > it anyway. > > Gordon > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Sep 20 03:16:19 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:16:19 +0100 Subject: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAC2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> As Student Apprentice in the 1960's I rewired a big (Great Western Railway) wartime eletromechanical PABX. Now that was interesting. You could see the precursors to modern computing. There really was relay logic in there. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 19 September 2007 22:01 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Subject: Re: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I never could understand how they managed to do all of that with what > was basically electromechanical stuff... Some very tricky relays. That is why you have 1 for long distance. I had a book about that -- 1940's ( but it got lost ) and the big thing was automatic dialing. I am not sure but I think on the old non dial phones you could even back then dial your number by tapping the hook on the phone. Ben. From toby at coreware.co.uk Thu Sep 20 03:06:21 2007 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:06:21 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BABC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BABC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <5DCA318696504F329C0772367C7BC723@spasmo> Hi, Its near Reigate in Surrey. If we can get video that would be great, could go on my www.pdp11.co.uk site. Is the 11/94s CPU UNIBUS or does it have a QBUS backplane for CPU and a qbus/unibus convertor? If its QBUS would an 11/73 CPU be of any use, have a lot of them in my spares stack. Cheers, Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 > Hi > Now that sounds interesting. Where is it? > The reason I ask is I have a retired friend who has more video equipment > than the BBC. > A nice video of it getting craned out would interesting. > A couple of points re craning. > If there are no eye bolt holes in top of the cabs you need to have a > strong base to put it on and then a stretcher bar four rope sling down > to the base. Any side pressure will collapse the cab and crush anything > inside. I'd tend towards pulling the drives (and anything else fragile) > out of the cab. > > The fact that there's no lights and switches front panel is probably due > trying to stop the end user doing something nasty. > If I read the runes correctly on other posts then light and switch front > panels are around and are a straight swap. > > I have no fewer than four 11/94's but the KD11J CPU boards were stolen > before I got to the machines. > An 11/84 CPU (KDJ11-B) + Memory would do but I cant find one at a good > price. > > Rod > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell > Sent: 18 September 2007 20:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General > Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > > Hi, > > Yes it was indeed a DIBOL based machine. I think it was used as a > business administration system of some sort, possibly for the printing > industry. > > When I viewed the machine, it was deeply buried under boxes of paperwork > and so I've not had a chance to fully inspect the CPU cabinet. The > reason for having to crane it out is that the machine is on the first > floor of the office building it is stored in and I decided the few > hundred pounds it would cost to hire a crane were considerably less than > the back surgery I would require if I attempted to get it down the > constricted stair cases I was faced with. Plus I could get it out in one > piece rather than having to dismantle. Luckily the build has a nice > large (reinforced) flat roof, so should be a case of wheeling it out and > craning it down. > > I'm still suspecting the machine to be an 11/34 as I couldn't see any > sign of a full switched console so suspect there is a keypad hidden away > somewhere. Regardless it will be a nice machine to add to my growing > haul of PDPs and VAXes (upto 40 now) > > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might > be worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc > > Thanks, > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rod Smallwood" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:38 PM > Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 > > >>A couple of other things have come to mind. >> >> DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running > under >> OS/8, RT11 or VMS >> >> They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often >> included training, installation >> and maintenance. >> >> There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or >> DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. >> >> *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD > Arithmetic >> >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa >> Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 >> >>> Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to >>> get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean >>> packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about >>> 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs >> here: >>> http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) >> >>> I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does >>> anyone have any background information on them? >> >>> Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no >>> toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to >>> these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. >> >> That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will >> find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote >> console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC >> maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm >> sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the >> maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find >> that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. >> >> Tim. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Sep 20 03:28:30 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:28:30 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 oweners Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAC3@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Me for two (11/94's) Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 19 September 2007 23:10 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: UK PDP11 oweners > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? > Might be worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc Me, for one. I've got (from what I rememebnr (!)) : PD11/10 (5.25" box) PDP11/45 PDP11/34 (3 off) PDP11/24 PDP11/44 LSI11 MINC-11 MIOC23 York Box (BAA11V + SBC21 + RAM + I/O) At least one other Q-bus machine -tony From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Sep 20 09:57:08 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:57:08 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAC7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I take it you are also in said area. I'm Near READING so M4->M3->M25 an hour and a bit would do it! (see direct email re 11/94's) The 11/94 has a short Qbus followed by a unibus backplane. It needs a KDJ11 but the -B from an 11/84 is rumoured to run. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell Sent: 20 September 2007 09:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 Hi, Its near Reigate in Surrey. If we can get video that would be great, could go on my www.pdp11.co.uk site. Is the 11/94s CPU UNIBUS or does it have a QBUS backplane for CPU and a qbus/unibus convertor? If its QBUS would an 11/73 CPU be of any use, have a lot of them in my spares stack. Cheers, Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 > Hi > Now that sounds interesting. Where is it? > The reason I ask is I have a retired friend who has more video equipment > than the BBC. > A nice video of it getting craned out would interesting. > A couple of points re craning. > If there are no eye bolt holes in top of the cabs you need to have a > strong base to put it on and then a stretcher bar four rope sling down > to the base. Any side pressure will collapse the cab and crush anything > inside. I'd tend towards pulling the drives (and anything else fragile) > out of the cab. > > The fact that there's no lights and switches front panel is probably due > trying to stop the end user doing something nasty. > If I read the runes correctly on other posts then light and switch front > panels are around and are a straight swap. > > I have no fewer than four 11/94's but the KD11J CPU boards were stolen > before I got to the machines. > An 11/84 CPU (KDJ11-B) + Memory would do but I cant find one at a good > price. > > Rod > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell > Sent: 18 September 2007 20:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General > Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 > > Hi, > > Yes it was indeed a DIBOL based machine. I think it was used as a > business administration system of some sort, possibly for the printing > industry. > > When I viewed the machine, it was deeply buried under boxes of paperwork > and so I've not had a chance to fully inspect the CPU cabinet. The > reason for having to crane it out is that the machine is on the first > floor of the office building it is stored in and I decided the few > hundred pounds it would cost to hire a crane were considerably less than > the back surgery I would require if I attempted to get it down the > constricted stair cases I was faced with. Plus I could get it out in one > piece rather than having to dismantle. Luckily the build has a nice > large (reinforced) flat roof, so should be a case of wheeling it out and > craning it down. > > I'm still suspecting the machine to be an 11/34 as I couldn't see any > sign of a full switched console so suspect there is a keypad hidden away > somewhere. Regardless it will be a nice machine to add to my growing > haul of PDPs and VAXes (upto 40 now) > > Out of interest, how many UK PDP-11 owners are there on this list? Might > be worth assembling a little SIG to allow us to swap parts etc > > Thanks, > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rod Smallwood" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:38 PM > Subject: RE: Help identifying a PDP-11 > > >>A couple of other things have come to mind. >> >> DEC DataSystem usually indicated that it supported *DIBOL running > under >> OS/8, RT11 or VMS >> >> They were intended to be a business package system ready run and often >> included training, installation >> and maintenance. >> >> There's a possible confusion here 'DEC System' refered to a DEC10 or >> DEC20 and DEC DataSystem to one of these package jobs. >> >> *Program Structure like COBOL. Syntax like Fortran/BASIC. BCD > Arithmetic >> >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa >> Sent: 17 September 2007 13:50 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Help identifying a PDP-11 >> >>> Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to >>> get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean >>> packed) with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about >>> 35-40U with a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs >> here: >>> http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) >> >>> I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does >>> anyone have any background information on them? >> >>> Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no >>> toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to >>> these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. >> >> That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will >> find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote >> console access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC >> maintenance org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm >> sure that sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the >> maintenance contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find >> that they hardly ever reclaimed the equipment. >> >> Tim. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From davzimm at excite.com Thu Sep 20 14:22:17 2007 From: davzimm at excite.com (DAVE ZIMMERMAN) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qualstar 9 track Message-ID: <20070920192217.33AED8B394@xprdmxin.myway.com> I picked up an old Qualstar model 1054 9 track scsi tape drive for reading old data tapes. It is missing the Users Guide, document #500100, that I need to correctly set the dip switches so that I can use it on my old RS6000. I've found a reference to the guide (http://www.qualstar.com/pan003.pdf) telling me what to do but not how. As it is, when I try to read a tape it rewinds and unloads. Dave _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 21 02:44:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 03:44:28 -0400 Subject: Next EPROM Question - Sizes In-Reply-To: <2ccb01c7f8fd$d7d7b1c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <3DBDAABA-2BAD-4040-9181-933DF3619718@neurotica.com> <2ccb01c7f8fd$d7d7b1c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2007, at 3:37 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> This may help: >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/eprom.png > > Some more help (recommended): > http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/temp/tabeprom.gif > > All eprom pinouts up to 27C080 > > (this is the ELNEC rom emulators' table which sits on the help > file, converted to a gif. Buy ELNEC products! :D) Oh that is an extremely handy little GIF file! Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 21 10:22:08 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:22:08 +0100 Subject: Unknown S100 system Message-ID: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk> Kind of posting on a whim that this might be something obvious... All of the S100 systems I've seen to date have comprised a backplane and then cards for various system components - including CPU and memory. However, I unearthed one today which held much of the system logic on the backplane itself (i.e. more like a modern-day PC motherboard - I'd heard such things existed, but this is the first one I've actually seen). Unfortunately I forgot to bring the thing home with me, so I'm a bit light on remembered details (but can get more tomorrow if needs be). However, it appeared to have both an 8088 and 8085 CPU on board, memory, what is probably ROM, a handful of S100-bus [1] connectors, parallel port, a light-pen port (unusual!), plus a few other ports (at least one was serial I expect). There were a few other IDC-style pin headers too - perhaps for some sort of storage, but none of them were obviously labeled as to function. Sound familiar to anyone? [1] Of course the only thing to make me think it's S100 is that the connectors are the right type; there's a possibility that it's some totally random bus specific to whatever system this is :-) cheers Jules From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Fri Sep 21 10:34:14 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:34:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? Message-ID: Greetings; I'm planning on moving an Onyx rack in the next two weeks and I'm probably going to have to be fairly agricultural with my tooling - pickup truck and flatbed trailer, no lift gate, no lovely enclosed box. I'm thinking that to safely transport this I'll tip it on its back and lay it flat on some 2x4s onto the flatbed trailer, but I'd love any advice from listers who have moved one, or better yet, who have one and can tell me things like - how solid is the frame (after removal of the plastic skins)? Is it top heavy? Bottom heavy? (I'm guessing after removal of PSUs, top heavy, but unsure) Anything would be much appreciated. I found the below: http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/sgidepot/chalonyx.html Which gives a nice picture of a unit with open doors, but it's hard to tell how solid the frame rails are. The thing looks awfully deep to be a standard 19" rack, so I'm guessing it's custom, but... having never seen one... Many thanks for your time, JP Hindin From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Sep 21 11:42:11 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:42:11 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070921123639.012cb698@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >Kind of posting on a whim that this might be something obvious... >[snip] > >Unfortunately I forgot to bring the thing home with me, so I'm a bit light >on remembered details (but can get more tomorrow if needs be). However, it >appeared to have both an 8088 and 8085 CPU on board, memory, what is >probably ROM, a handful of S100-bus [1] connectors, parallel port, a >light-pen port (unusual!), plus a few other ports (at least one was serial >I expect). There were a few other IDC-style pin headers too - perhaps for >some sort of storage, but none of them were obviously labeled as to function. > >Sound familiar to anyone? Sounds kinda like a motherboard for a Heath/Zenith... Z100? Was that the designation? Those two processors were on the Z100 mobo... if you need to see a picture, I can dig the mobo of one out of the crypt^Wbasement tonite... Here's a not-so-great picture of the mobo for one: http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/z100bdx.jpg The Z-100 will take S-100 cards. Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Sep 21 11:59:55 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:59:55 +0200 Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. Message-ID: <46F3F88B.80102@bluewin.ch> Subject says it all, I am looking for a Depraz mouse, a.k.a. swiss mouse. It is a very early mouse, around 1982, with straigth quadrature output and three Shadow switches for mouse buttons Jos Dreesen From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 21 12:23:50 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:23:50 +0100 Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: <46F3F88B.80102@bluewin.ch> References: <46F3F88B.80102@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <46F3FE26.1030405@yahoo.co.uk> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > Subject says it all, I am looking for a Depraz mouse, a.k.a. swiss mouse. > > It is a very early mouse, around 1982, with straigth quadrature output > and three Shadow switches for mouse buttons Hmm, what's a 'shadow switch'? I've got a couple of Depraz quadrature mice here (needed for a couple of my machines, I'm afraid) - hemispherical in shape with three buttons along the 'front' edge of the hemisphere. I didn't think there was anything strange about the button switches though, so maybe you're meaning a different Depraz product... From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Sep 21 12:41:31 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:41:31 +0200 Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: <46F3FE26.1030405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46F3F88B.80102@bluewin.ch> <46F3FE26.1030405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46F4024B.1010804@bluewin.ch> Jules Richardson wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >> >> Subject says it all, I am looking for a Depraz mouse, a.k.a. swiss mouse. >> >> It is a very early mouse, around 1982, with straigth quadrature output >> and three Shadow switches for mouse buttons > > Hmm, what's a 'shadow switch'? I've got a couple of Depraz quadrature > mice here (needed for a couple of my machines, I'm afraid) - Interesting, which machines are they ? > hemispherical in shape with three buttons along the 'front' edge of the > hemisphere. I didn't think there was anything strange about the button > switches though, There isn't. Shadow is the brandname of this particular switch. Jos From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Sep 21 12:42:57 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: <46F3FE26.1030405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46F3F88B.80102@bluewin.ch> <46F3FE26.1030405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:23:50 +0100 > From: Jules Richardson > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: Looking for a Depraz mouse. > > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >> >> Subject says it all, I am looking for a Depraz mouse, a.k.a. swiss mouse. >> >> It is a very early mouse, around 1982, with straigth quadrature output and >> three Shadow switches for mouse buttons > > Hmm, what's a 'shadow switch'? I've got a couple of Depraz quadrature mice > here (needed for a couple of my machines, I'm afraid) - hemispherical in > shape with three buttons along the 'front' edge of the hemisphere. I didn't > think there was anything strange about the button switches though, so maybe > you're meaning a different Depraz product... > > Its the switch manufacturer : Schadow Peter Wallace From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 21 12:56:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:56:40 -0700 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070921123639.012cb698@mail.30below.com> References: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070921123639.012cb698@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46F3A368.16965.2D36DC34@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2007 at 12:42, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Sounds kinda like a motherboard for a Heath/Zenith... Z100? Was that the > designation? Those two processors were on the Z100 mobo... if you need to > see a picture, I can dig the mobo of one out of the crypt^Wbasement tonite... Z-110/H-110 without built-in monitor; Z-120/H-120 with. 4 S-100 slots. Completely incompatible with IBM 5150, but fairly popular when it first came out. The "H" models are the Heathkit "make your own cold solder joints" form, but otherwise the same as the Zenith units. Unlike the Rainbow, the use of the 8085 was probably not such a great idea after Heath/Zenith had been producing Z-80 systems. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Sep 21 13:20:42 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:20:42 -0700 Subject: Qualstar 9 track In-Reply-To: <20070920192217.33AED8B394@xprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20070920192217.33AED8B394@xprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <46F40B7A.5010403@msm.umr.edu> DAVE ZIMMERMAN wrote: >I picked up an old Qualstar model 1054 9 track scsi tape drive for reading old data tapes. It is missing the Users Guide, document #500100, that I need to correctly set the dip switches so that I can use it on my old RS6000. I've found a reference to the guide (http://www.qualstar.com/pan003.pdf) telling me what to do but not how. As it is, when I try to read a tape it rewinds and unloads. > >Dave > > the AIX /dev directory has both rewinding and nonrewinding devices in it. It will possibly do that when you connect to the device with a command. Also you may get a SCSI reset doing that. I know there were a lot of issues when we wrote tape code to access tapes at Ultimate for the Pick system we sold that had to be worked around. You might try it on an Adaptec on a PC with Linux before going to AIX so you are only fighting one problem at a time till it is functional. I assume you can see it properly configured with smit, etc before trying to do anything with it as well. I don't know for sure about non IBM 1/2" tapes how they would show up, but you should be sure that you see a good report in the device report in smit first. Jim From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 21 14:06:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:06:34 +0100 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070921123639.012cb698@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070921123639.012cb698@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46F4163A.60904@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Here's a not-so-great picture of the mobo for one: > > http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/z100bdx.jpg Yep, that's the one - thanks :-) Seems like it might be an interesting beast, anyway... cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 21 13:07:58 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:07:58 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <46F3A368.16965.2D36DC34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20070921123639.012cb698@mail.30below.com> <46F3A368.16965.2D36DC34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709211407.59054.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 21 September 2007 13:56, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Unlike the Rainbow, the use of the 8085 was probably not such a great > idea after Heath/Zenith had been producing Z-80 systems. I wonder why they went with that part? I seem to remember some others that used it as well, though specifics are not coming to mind at the moment. I have a bunch of those on hand, and think about doing something with them from time to time. It's a fairly easy chip to use, with an eprom and a ram chip and a single address latch, I just haven't decided yet what I'm gonna do with it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 21 15:01:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:01:05 -0700 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <200709211407.59054.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk>, <46F3A368.16965.2D36DC34@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709211407.59054.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46F3C091.31571.2DA8C406@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2007 at 14:07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I wonder why they went with that part? I seem to remember some others that > used it as well, though specifics are not coming to mind at the moment. I > have a bunch of those on hand, and think about doing something with them > from time to time. It's a fairly easy chip to use, with an eprom and a ram > chip and a single address latch, I just haven't decided yet what I'm gonna > do with it. Compupro 85/88 board; my own Durango F-85 and a host of others. If you can find some of the support chips (8155, 8755), the parts count can be very low, given the vintage of the 8085. I suspect that the reason 8088/8085 pairs were fairly common in comparison to Z80/8088 pairs was that timings and buses on the 8088 and 8085 are *very* similar and getting them to work with 8000-series peripherals was very easy. IIRC, one could even replace an 8085 with an 8088 (assuming you were restricting it to 64K addressing) with a minimum of "glue". Both multiplex the data lines on A0-A7 the same way. I suspect it might be easier to substitute an NSC800 for an 8085 if Z80 functionality is needed than trying to shoehorn in a Z80. Cheers, Chuck From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Sep 21 15:07:46 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:07:46 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7270FD59-E13B-4604-954F-B354DF8258C5@colourfull.com> JP, I have three of these units which I have transported on a small trailer I pull behind. The frame is very sturdy (built like a tank) but if I was to tip it to transport it, I would take a picture and label the boards and then remove them for travel. The skins themselves are fairly heavy. The unit isn't really top or bottom heavy (in my opinion only) it seems more center heavy (cards and drives located more towards the center. I would probably leave the supplies in it. Only my two cents. Rob On Sep 21, 2007, at 11:34 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > > Greetings; > > I'm planning on moving an Onyx rack in the next two weeks and I'm > probably > going to have to be fairly agricultural with my tooling - pickup > truck and > flatbed trailer, no lift gate, no lovely enclosed box. > > I'm thinking that to safely transport this I'll tip it on its back > and lay > it flat on some 2x4s onto the flatbed trailer, but I'd love any advice > from listers who have moved one, or better yet, who have one and > can tell > me things like - how solid is the frame (after removal of the plastic > skins)? Is it top heavy? Bottom heavy? (I'm guessing after removal of > PSUs, top heavy, but unsure) > > Anything would be much appreciated. > > I found the below: > http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/sgidepot/chalonyx.html > > Which gives a nice picture of a unit with open doors, but it's hard to > tell how solid the frame rails are. The thing looks awfully deep to > be a > standard 19" rack, so I'm guessing it's custom, but... having never > seen > one... > > Many thanks for your time, > JP Hindin > Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 21 15:16:09 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:16:09 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709212016.l8LKGBPd008796@billy.ezwind.net> Sounds like it may be Heath/Zenith Z100 The other Bob On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:22:08 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote: >Kind of posting on a whim that this might be something obvious... >All of the S100 systems I've seen to date have comprised a backplane and then >cards for various system components - including CPU and memory. However, I >unearthed one today which held much of the system logic on the backplane >itself (i.e. more like a modern-day PC motherboard - I'd heard such things >existed, but this is the first one I've actually seen). >Unfortunately I forgot to bring the thing home with me, so I'm a bit light on >remembered details (but can get more tomorrow if needs be). However, it >appeared to have both an 8088 and 8085 CPU on board, memory, what is probably >ROM, a handful of S100-bus [1] connectors, parallel port, a light-pen port >(unusual!), plus a few other ports (at least one was serial I expect). There >were a few other IDC-style pin headers too - perhaps for some sort of storage, >but none of them were obviously labeled as to function. >Sound familiar to anyone? >[1] Of course the only thing to make me think it's S100 is that the connectors >are the right type; there's a possibility that it's some totally random bus >specific to whatever system this is :-) >cheers >Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 21 15:29:36 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:29:36 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <46F4163A.60904@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070921123639.012cb698@mail.30below.com> <46F4163A.60904@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709211629.36410.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 21 September 2007 15:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Here's a not-so-great picture of the mobo for one: > > > > http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/z100bdx.jpg > > Yep, that's the one - thanks :-) Seems like it might be an interesting > beast, anyway... > > cheers > > Jules Around the time that the Z100 and Z150, 151, etc. machines were out, I was a ZDS service center. I think there were a couple of different versions of their peecee compatible involving differerent degrees of integration, 3 vs. 4 boards in the system or something like that. Anyhow, *somewhere* I have pretty complete docs on that stuff, along with what monitors and printers and such were out at that point in time. We didn't keep that up though. I'd gone for my initial training to Philly, a few hours drive for me, and a one-night stay in a motel for a two-day seminar that covered _all_ of that stuff. Later on Zenith decided that they were going to do away with handling things through the distribution chain and was gonna centralize everything, and get more bureaucratic while they were at it -- I'd need to submit a "batch ticket" along with a *single* warranty claim. But the real deal-killer for me was the requirement that I'd have to make _four_ separate trips (by air, too far to drive) to Chicago, and spend a total of _three weeks_ (not continuously, unfortunately) attending these seminars, and was expected to _pay_ for them -- a total of a couple of thousand all total, which was way more than what we were making in the servicing of this stuff, even though I was handling military installations of it and such. Anyhow, I still have all those docs, if anybody needs some, though I expect that it'd take me quite a while to dig them out... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 21 15:35:41 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:35:41 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <46F3C091.31571.2DA8C406@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk> <200709211407.59054.rtellason@verizon.net> <46F3C091.31571.2DA8C406@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709211635.42127.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 21 September 2007 16:01, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Sep 2007 at 14:07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I wonder why they went with that part? I seem to remember some others > > that used it as well, though specifics are not coming to mind at the > > moment. I have a bunch of those on hand, and think about doing > > something with them from time to time. It's a fairly easy chip to use, > > with an eprom and a ram chip and a single address latch, I just haven't > > decided yet what I'm gonna do with it. > > Compupro 85/88 board; my own Durango F-85 and a host of others. If > you can find some of the support chips (8155, 8755), the parts count > can be very low, given the vintage of the 8085. Compupro was the one that was hanging out there at the edge of recall... I may have some of those support chips, too. 8155 (and 8156, which is the same part with a different select pin polarity if I'm remembering right) sound real familiar. I have the 8085 Cookbook and a few others that Sams put out, one covering this text editor and assembler (which I didn't really care for, but...). No interest in the ROM-based 8355 and I've never seen the EPROM-based 8755. The relative i/o and RAM address mapping of those parts gets a little confusing, though, and the book is a bit less clear than it could be on that aspect of it. > I suspect that the reason 8088/8085 pairs were fairly common in > comparison to Z80/8088 pairs was that timings and buses on the 8088 > and 8085 are *very* similar and getting them to work with 8000-series > peripherals was very easy. IIRC, one could even replace an 8085 with > an 8088 (assuming you were restricting it to 64K addressing) with a > minimum of "glue". Both multiplex the data lines on A0-A7 the same > way. Ah. I'd never really looked at the 8088 and later parts all that much, or to that level of detail. > I suspect it might be easier to substitute an NSC800 for an 8085 if > Z80 functionality is needed than trying to shoehorn in a Z80. That's another part I have no familiarity with at all at this point in time, though of course I've heard of it. With regard to what little programming I've done, the thing I like most about the z80 is relative jumps, which makes relocatable code easy to do. The other big deal is the alternate register set and the index registers, which I really haven't used all that much. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 18:16:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:16:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: <46F3F88B.80102@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Sep 21, 7 06:59:55 pm Message-ID: > > > Subject says it all, I am looking for a Depraz mouse, a.k.a. swiss mouse. > > It is a very early mouse, around 1982, with straigth quadrature output > and three Shadow switches for mouse buttons I know the unit well, I have one. It's the original mouse for my Whitechapel MG1. Of course I want to keep it with that system. Mine is the normal 'computer grey' colour, I am told they came in other colours too. The red ones, with the black switch buttons are said to look like ladybirds (ladybugs across the Pnnd?) Checking the technical manual for that machine, which includes the Depraz application notes, it appears there were 2 versions. The D83/P mouse has a normal quatrature output on a DE9 (yes, they got it right!) connector, pinout being : 1 +5V 2 Y2 3 Y1 4 X2 5 X1 6 Ground 7 Middle button 8 Right button 9 Left button The D83/H mouse has a 5V level serial interace (not at all RS232 compatible, and not an asynchronous interface at all). Basically the 7 signals for the mouse go into a 4021 shift register, the interface being the clock, load and output pins of that chift register. The pinout, again a DE9, seems to be 1 Clock 2 Load 3 Out 4 Ground 5 +5V Do you need exactly this mouse (e.g. as an object in your collection in its owen right), or are you repairing a machine that uses it? In the latter case, just about any TTL-level quadrature mouse will work. Incidentally, if you have the mouse and it doesn't work, I do have schematics (not that it's hard to trace them out!). -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 21 19:00:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:00:03 +0100 Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F45B03.2040406@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Checking the technical manual for that machine, which includes the Depraz > application notes, it appears there were 2 versions. The D83/P mouse has > a normal quatrature output on a DE9 (yes, they got it right!) connector Mine are both that type (quadrature), but with the same connectors as found on the BBC micro's User port. However, whilst they appeared originally to be wired to conform to that port's pinouts (i.e. no TTL outputs shorted to ground etc.) they weren't wired in any of the common ways of wiring mice for BBC machines. I've got no idea what software they were intended to work with - or even if they were supposed to connect to Acorn machines at all (although I can't think of another contemporary system which used the same type of data input connector). I ended up making a note of the original pinouts and swapping the pins round at the connector end so that they'd work with my Master 512 machines... They're not particularly nice mice to use IMHO - but they are rather cool compared to the boxy alternatives around that time (although I suppose my Penny & Giles mouse dates from about the same time, and that one's far nicer than anything I've used on modern systems!) cheers Jules From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 19:44:37 2007 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 02:44:37 +0200 Subject: anyone near Phoenix 85040 to grab some pdp parts ? Message-ID: Hi, Anyone near : 4439 South 38th Place Phoenix, Arizona, USA 85040 and interested by a some pdp 11/34 (heavy) parts (chassis, psu) ? thanks regards, -- Stephane Paris, France. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Sep 21 22:07:26 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:07:26 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: <7270FD59-E13B-4604-954F-B354DF8258C5@colourfull.com> References: <7270FD59-E13B-4604-954F-B354DF8258C5@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <46F486EE.1010409@oldskool.org> Robert Borsuk wrote: > I have three of these units which I have transported on a small > trailer I pull behind. The frame is very sturdy (built like a tank) > but if I was to tip it to transport it, I would take a picture and label > the boards and then remove them for travel. The skins themselves are > fairly heavy. The unit isn't really top or bottom heavy (in my opinion > only) it seems more center heavy (cards and drives located more towards > the center. I would probably leave the supplies in it. > Only my two cents. My experience has been the opposite, actually. Every single server move I've done where we opted to leave things in the rack has had something shake loose or, rarely, outright break. I've had to replace motherboard because some trace got severed somewhere. So my personal opinion is to derack the entire thing if you can. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 22:49:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 21:49:11 -0600 Subject: Any good/bad experiences with Forward Air? Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm looking at moving a medium quantity of DEC gear from a friend's house in Denver to Columbus, and he suggested Forward Air. I checked their web site and just learned that their National Hub is 8 miles from my Farm (that a couple of you have seen). As such, it sounds like a good plan, and I remember that I've heard chatter about Forward Air, but I'm a bit fuzzy about the nature of the chatter and if it was mostly good, mixed, mostly bad, or what. I'm planning on shipping things like an LA180, most or all of an -8/a enclosure and boards, and perhaps a DECmate I or VT100 (I'll get to see the stuff this Sunday)... so we are looking at probably a single pallet between 100 and 200 lbs. I'd rather this not turn into a flame-fest or a "why don't you try *this* method" discussion. I specifically want to hear about any experiences or recommendations for or against Forward Air. I know my other options; this one is new to me. If you feel your comments are not quite on-topic, please, by all means, feel free to send to me off-list. Other mini-collectors might be interested in pertinent comments, though. Thanks, -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Sep 22 00:04:05 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:04:05 -0500 Subject: Any good/bad experiences with Forward Air? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F4A245.1030806@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'd rather this not turn into a flame-fest or a "why don't you try > *this* method" discussion. I specifically want to hear about any > experiences or recommendations for or against Forward Air. I know my > other options; this one is new to me. Forward Air won't be liable for anything not wood-crated (which is a plus in my book...), but will ship just about anything you put on their dock. I showed up on their ramp late one night in Denver, Colorado with a rackmount AlphaServer 2100, 2 rolls of 24" bubble wrap, many square yards of scrap mattress cartons, and a couple of miles of tape and shrinkwrap. They sold me a pallet for $2, made room for me to "box" the AS2100, and not only loaned me the banding tools, but the guy asked me enough questions to make sure I wasn't gonna put my eye out with it. OTOH, in Phoenix they were like, "Put it over there, sign this, go away." To be fair, in Phoenix I showed up with a pre-labeled, sealed crate, 8 minutes before they closed, and in Denver I had called ahead and asked if I could box my goods in their driveway. Seriously, it's a no-frills operation, and like any big company, special treatment is going to depend on the local crew. However, I've shipped with them from Denver, Phoenix, Austin, and Baltimore, and I've never had any complaints about their service or their willingness to help, and nothing I've shipped with them has been damaged. Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 00:07:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:07:19 -0600 Subject: Any good/bad experiences with Forward Air? In-Reply-To: <46F4A245.1030806@mdrconsult.com> References: <46F4A245.1030806@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 9/21/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > I showed up on their ramp late one night in Denver, Colorado... Are you in Denver? I'm staying at the Residence Inn Denver West (14600 W 6th) for the next week. Thanks for the feedback on Forward Air, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 00:07:43 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:07:43 -0600 Subject: Any good/bad experiences with Forward Air? In-Reply-To: References: <46F4A245.1030806@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 9/21/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/21/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I showed up on their ramp late one night in Denver, Colorado... > > Are you in Denver? I'm staying at the Residence Inn Denver West... Oops... that was supposed to be off-list. Ah, well. -ethan From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Sep 22 02:16:16 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:16:16 +0200 Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F4C140.1070402@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >>( pinouts removed) Thanks for these pinouts .. you need exactly this mouse (e.g. as an object in your collection in > its owen right), or are you repairing a machine that uses it? In the > latter case, just about any TTL-level quadrature mouse will work. I would like to have an orignal Depraz, since I hope to reconstruct a second Lilith from the spare parts I have : I only have to reconstruct the display card, I have a spare for all the others. And I would need to make a backplane. Since it is mechanically compatible with the dec Omnibus / Qbus backplane it should be feasible : I have a spare QBUS backplane and 2 Omnibus experimenter boards. I realize any ball-type mouse could easily be converted to quadrature output, but only the orignal Depraz is the "right" match for a Lilith. > Incidentally, if you have the mouse and it doesn't work, I do have > schematics (not that it's hard to trace them out!). Probably not, but tracing out the rest of the Lilith is another matter. But I am 80% through ! Jos Dreesen From KenO at tescomusa.com Fri Sep 21 08:50:55 2007 From: KenO at tescomusa.com (Ken Owen) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:50:55 -0500 Subject: Fibre Channel-related items up for grabs Message-ID: <5C27796E6224D446B6507E7DA1FC3A104058A6@POST.corp.tescomusa.com> Do you still have XMT1300-1.2 fo transmitter? I need some. They go in Tektroniix/agilent test equipment. Ken Owen Technical Manager Tescom keno at tescomusa.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 21 11:24:23 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:24:23 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system Message-ID: <0JOQ001GE86W66P3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Unknown S100 system > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:22:08 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Kind of posting on a whim that this might be something obvious... > >All of the S100 systems I've seen to date have comprised a backplane and then >cards for various system components - including CPU and memory. However, I >unearthed one today which held much of the system logic on the backplane >itself (i.e. more like a modern-day PC motherboard - I'd heard such things >existed, but this is the first one I've actually seen). I have at last one that qualifies. Netronics Explorer 8085. The base board mas a8085 cpu, space for 8K Eprom and 4k ram plus the 256bytes ram for the monitor and the 2K (8755) Eprom monitor. What makes it different is you could add the bus interface and two sockets for 2 S100 sockets and there was an exptension backplane that stacked on it for another 5 S100 slots. >Unfortunately I forgot to bring the thing home with me, so I'm a bit light on >remembered details (but can get more tomorrow if needs be). However, it >appeared to have both an 8088 and 8085 CPU on board, memory, what is probably >ROM, a handful of S100-bus [1] connectors, parallel port, a light-pen port >(unusual!), plus a few other ports (at least one was serial I expect). There >were a few other IDC-style pin headers too - perhaps for some sort of storage, >but none of them were obviously labeled as to function. > >Sound familiar to anyone? No, very few systems I've seen carry both 8085 and 8088 and those were mostly Compupro S100. > Allison From james at machineroom.info Fri Sep 21 14:48:30 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:48:30 +0100 Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F4200E.6060506@machineroom.info> JP Hindin wrote: > Greetings; > > I'm planning on moving an Onyx rack in the next two weeks and I'm probably > going to have to be fairly agricultural with my tooling - pickup truck and > flatbed trailer, no lift gate, no lovely enclosed box. > > I'm thinking that to safely transport this I'll tip it on its back and lay > it flat on some 2x4s onto the flatbed trailer, but I'd love any advice > from listers who have moved one, or better yet, who have one and can tell > me things like - how solid is the frame (after removal of the plastic > skins)? Is it top heavy? Bottom heavy? (I'm guessing after removal of > PSUs, top heavy, but unsure) > > Anything would be much appreciated. > > I found the below: > http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/sgidepot/chalonyx.html > > Which gives a nice picture of a unit with open doors, but it's hard to > tell how solid the frame rails are. The thing looks awfully deep to be a > standard 19" rack, so I'm guessing it's custom, but... having never seen > one... > > Many thanks for your time, > JP Hindin > > Nice machine! I've moved a few Onyx (IR/10K & Challenge but all physically the same) in the past. The plastic skins do slide off, they just need a good whack from one end usually. Front and rear doors just lift off (there may be an earth strap) and are pretty heavy - be careful as it's very easy to chip/scratch them. The rack is very well made and whilst there is wiring around the sides, it's within the outer metal framework. It is a very deep rack - there's card racks front and back and a central midplane. There's space for 3 power supplies at the bottom front (although usually only 2 are fitted) - these are quite heavy but insignificant compared to the rest of the system! There's also space for an additional card rack at the bottom rear, which is usually empty (lucky you if it's loaded!!). I wouldn't suggest removing cards unless you have to - there's usually a lot of very similar looking cabling interconnecting them and the back panel (take a camera and labels just in case you have to undo this!!). I've also found the cards don't like being pulled - it sometimes takes a few attemps to get a working system afterwards! I've generally hired a van with tail lift which makes the move easy but I've also helped load them into 2 different sized vans, laying on the side. With two people it's fairly easy to get the machine rocked so one end is supported on the van floor, then lift the other and slide in. I wouldn't try moving one by myself :-) Hope that helps! James http://www.machineroom.info From mcmsolutions at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 21 19:01:15 2007 From: mcmsolutions at sbcglobal.net (mike mckernan) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ibm Message-ID: <138648.65503.qm@web82805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> still interested? http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/sys/400141802.html Later From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 22 08:49:54 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:49:54 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46F3E1A0.6070409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070922134954.776C8BA45A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > [1] Of course the only thing to make me think it's S100 is that the connectors > are the right type; there's a possibility that it's some totally random bus > specific to whatever system this is :-) There are in fact several bus systems out there that use the 100-pin edge connectors. But... not all of them use the same size board, or have the connector centered in the same place. Tracing out the beefy power traces will tell you pretty quickly whether this is S-100 like or not. Another identifier: count ground lines. If there are enough, it's not S-100 :-). Of course, the critics among us will insist that there was not one S-100 bus, but in fact hundreds of S-100 busses, all vaguely similar yet incompatible with each other until you go in and move jumpers and cut traces, and even then you're lucky if everything works in the end ! Tim. From redodd at comcast.net Sat Sep 22 09:54:43 2007 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:54:43 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 4 keyboard problem References: <200709211701.l8LH1Zjv018679@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005201c7fd28$830c77a0$6400a8c0@core2duo> Hello again Kaypro fans, I've got a Kaypro 4 with a PC81-240A motherboard and 81-232 rom. The machine boots and shows the disk directory on startup. The problem is that the keyboard makes the audible clicks but no characters are shown on the screen. I've tested with other known good keyboards so that's not the problem. I've swapped all the socketed chips. A Google search found another person who had the same problem but he never got an answer. I sent him an email but I haven't gotten a response yet. I've also resoldered the keyboard jack to the mobo. Jiggling the keyboard connector doesn't help. It looks like the wires in the jack are OK. Anyone got any ideas? TIA Ralph From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Sat Sep 22 10:37:21 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:37:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: <46F486EE.1010409@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Robert Borsuk wrote: > > I have three of these units which I have transported on a small > > trailer I pull behind. The frame is very sturdy (built like a tank) > > but if I was to tip it to transport it, I would take a picture and label > > the boards and then remove them for travel. The skins themselves are > > fairly heavy. The unit isn't really top or bottom heavy (in my opinion > > only) it seems more center heavy (cards and drives located more towards > > the center. I would probably leave the supplies in it. > > Only my two cents. > > My experience has been the opposite, actually. Every single server move > I've done where we opted to leave things in the rack has had something > shake loose or, rarely, outright break. I've had to replace motherboard > because some trace got severed somewhere. So my personal opinion is to > derack the entire thing if you can. Should I attempt this, could you give me an idea of what is involved? Do the cardcage modules come out from the rack with anything resembling "ease"? Does anyone have accurate dimensions for one of these cages? I've found three different dimensions on the web, and they differ by 12 inches, it would sure be nice if I could get someone to go out to their garage (storage facility, barn, etc) with a tape measure and come back and say "It *is* w x h x l". I appreciate your input, Jim; JP From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Sep 22 11:41:51 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:41:51 -0500 Subject: Any good/bad experiences with Forward Air? Message-ID: <76c2e75976cf6c9cf6e654c8e404b067@atarimuseum.com> I've used Forward Air for about 10 years, mostly shipping Video Arcades and they've been quite good about Hub to Hub shipping, the only downside is you have to go and get Money orders from a local shop near the hubs to pay unless you have an account which is next to impossible to obtain from them. I've used North American Van Lines for most big computer gear and they have been fairly good, some stuff has gotten roughly handled, but they have been okay. I prefer FA, but you just have to deal with the hassle of dropping off and picking up at the hubs. FA pricing is obviously a little better too. Curt -----Original message----- From: "Ethan Dicks" ethan.dicks at gmail.com Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:49:11 -0400 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Any good/bad experiences with Forward Air? > Hi, All, > > I'm looking at moving a medium quantity of DEC gear from a friend's > house in Denver to Columbus, and he suggested Forward Air. I checked > their web site and just learned that their National Hub is 8 miles > from my Farm (that a couple of you have seen). As such, it sounds > like a good plan, and I remember that I've heard chatter about Forward > Air, but I'm a bit fuzzy about the nature of the chatter and if it was > mostly good, mixed, mostly bad, or what. I'm planning on shipping > things like an LA180, most or all of an -8/a enclosure and boards, and > perhaps a DECmate I or VT100 (I'll get to see the stuff this > Sunday)... so we are looking at probably a single pallet between 100 > and 200 lbs. > > I'd rather this not turn into a flame-fest or a "why don't you try > *this* method" discussion. I specifically want to hear about any > experiences or recommendations for or against Forward Air. I know my > other options; this one is new to me. > > If you feel your comments are not quite on-topic, please, by all > means, feel free to send to me off-list. Other mini-collectors might > be interested in pertinent comments, though. > > Thanks, > > -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 11:14:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:14:25 -0600 Subject: Any good/bad experiences with Forward Air? In-Reply-To: <76c2e75976cf6c9cf6e654c8e404b067@atarimuseum.com> References: <76c2e75976cf6c9cf6e654c8e404b067@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 9/22/07, Curt Vendel wrote: > I've used Forward Air for about 10 years, mostly shipping Video Arcades and they've been quite good about Hub to Hub shipping, the only downside is you have to go and get Money orders from a local shop near the hubs to pay unless you have an account which is next to impossible to obtain from them. Good to know. Thanks for mentioning that. > I've used North American Van Lines for most big computer gear and they have been fairly good, some stuff has gotten roughly handled, but they have been okay. I prefer FA, but you just have to deal with the hassle of dropping off and picking up at the hubs. FA pricing is obviously a little better too. The main FA hub is so close to my Farm (where all my big stuff is), so I don't see that as a problem, just the dropping-off point. Thanks, -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 22 12:37:12 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro keyboard cable pinout Message-ID: Can an ordinary modular handset cord be used for a keyboard cable on a Kaypro? I forget if one can be used as-is or if one plug needs to be attached upside down. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 13:53:35 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:53:35 -0600 Subject: Apple Quicktake 150 disk image anywhere? Message-ID: Hi, all, This is a repeat of a 7-year-old topic, but I find myself in front of a CD full of Quicktake photos and no software. One of the strange things about the Apple Quicktake 150 was that it compressed its images with a special codec that was only available if you loaded the software that came with the camera. Once you loaded that software, any Mac app could view and manipulate the image, but you had to have the right little tidbit from the disk to do _anything_ with the pictures. The "problem" is that there was other, non-Apple, software on the disks for image manipulation, and according to the Apple ancient download page, the Quicktake disks are unavailable for download from them due to "licensing restrictions" (and there's a specific note from Apple in their info archives that there is no OS X software to handle Quicktake photos, so I'll be using some emulator, but that's an easy problem to solve). I can use ImageConvert or any other tool to process what I have once I have the camera software, but I don't happen to have those disks on hand (the camera was borrowed, 12 years ago). Does anyone happen to have image files of those floppies? Please respond off-list if you can help. Thanks, -ethan From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Sep 22 14:09:12 2007 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:09:12 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Kaypro keyboard cable pinout Message-ID: <4500747.1190488153084.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> the problem is that a regular modular handset cord is a smaller gauge wire than what came with the Kaypro. You may be able to get away with it, but the current draw of the keyboard is a bit much for the regular cord and may not be reliable. -----Original Message----- >From: David Griffith >Sent: Sep 22, 2007 10:37 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Kaypro keyboard cable pinout > > >Can an ordinary modular handset cord be used for a keyboard cable on a >Kaypro? I forget if one can be used as-is or if one plug needs to be >attached upside down. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 22 14:19:20 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 15:19:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Kaypro keyboard cable pinout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, David Griffith wrote: > Can an ordinary modular handset cord be used for a keyboard cable on a > Kaypro? I forget if one can be used as-is or if one plug needs to be > attached upside down. I've done it - it works. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 22 14:35:11 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro keyboard cable pinout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, David Griffith wrote: > > > Can an ordinary modular handset cord be used for a keyboard cable on a > > Kaypro? I forget if one can be used as-is or if one plug needs to be > > attached upside down. > > I've done it - it works. Which way? Normal or upside-down? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 22 15:43:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:43:01 -0400 Subject: Atari SIO bus connectors found Message-ID: <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> Hey folks...I don't know if there are any Atari hackers around here; I may be alone...but I wanted to let any interested parties know that I've located a source for the proprietary connectors that Atari used for their "SIO" bus, which is used to connect nearly all of their peripherals in a daisy-chain configuration. http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?AZndUfrS;AT13F;6 I've purchased a connector from the page referenced above, and it is indeed the right thing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 22 15:46:20 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Kaypro keyboard cable pinout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, David Griffith wrote: >>> Can an ordinary modular handset cord be used for a keyboard cable on a >>> Kaypro? I forget if one can be used as-is or if one plug needs to be >>> attached upside down. >> >> I've done it - it works. > > Which way? Normal or upside-down? As is - bog-standard handset cable. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 22 17:14:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:14:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: <46F45B03.2040406@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 22, 7 01:00:03 am Message-ID: > Mine are both that type (quadrature), but with the same connectors as found on > the BBC micro's User port. However, whilst they appeared originally to be > wired to conform to that port's pinouts (i.e. no TTL outputs shorted to ground Do the power connections make sense? IIRC, the BBC micro user port has one row that's 2 power and 8 grounds, the other row is port B of a VIA + its control lines. > etc.) they weren't wired in any of the common ways of wiring mice for BBC > machines. I wasn;'t even aware there was a stnadard way of wiring a mouse to a Beeb. [...] > They're not particularly nice mice to use IMHO - but they are rather cool > compared to the boxy alternatives around that time (although I suppose my > Penny & Giles mouse dates from about the same time, and that one's far nicer I think I have one of htpse Penny and Giles mice somewhere, and IIRC it has a 20 pin IDC socket on the end which I presumed was for a BBC User port... I have a very nice trackball from about the early 1980s. Not only does it hacve the ball and 4 function buttons, but also 'arrow keys' that when pressed generate the apporproate quadrature waveforms (as if you were rolling the ball in that directuon), at a switch-selectable rate. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 22 17:35:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:35:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <20070922134954.776C8BA45A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Sep 22, 7 09:49:54 am Message-ID: > > [1] Of course the only thing to make me think it's S100 is that the connectors > > are the right type; there's a possibility that it's some totally random bus > > specific to whatever system this is :-) > > There are in fact several bus systems out there that use the 100-pin > edge connectors. Two obvious ones being : 1) The Intel MCS8i. Although this is an 8080 system, the bus is not S100 compatible (I believe it pre-dates the S100 bus). Same edge connectors, but narrower, more square, boards. When I wanted to make an I/O card for my MCS8i, I used an S100 prototyping board, cut down. 2) HP DIO (HP9000/200 etc expansion bus). Same connectors, much smaller boards, and, of course 68000-like signals. > But... not all of them use the same size board, or have the connector -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 22 18:21:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:21:32 -0400 Subject: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> References: <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2007, at 4:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey folks...I don't know if there are any Atari hackers around > here; I may be alone...but I wanted to let any interested parties > know that I've located a source for the proprietary connectors that > Atari used for their "SIO" bus, which is used to connect nearly all > of their peripherals in a daisy-chain configuration. > > http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?AZndUfrS;AT13F;6 > > I've purchased a connector from the page referenced above, and it > is indeed the right thing. Oh, duh, I should probably clarify that this is for their 8-bit line...400, 800, XL series, etc. I don't think the ST family used SIO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 22 18:27:12 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:27:12 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <200709221700.l8MH0qRT033138@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000a01c7fd70$1adf1320$6500a8c0@barry> Your description fits PERFECTLY a Heathkit / Zenith Data Systems Z-100 series computer (actually, Z-110 or Z-120 series). I am sure, from you description, that this is what it was. It's actually a very common system as S-100 systems go .... about 100,000 were built, five to ten times more than Imsai or SOL-20 systems. > >All of the S100 systems I've seen to date have comprised a backplane >and then cards for various system components - including CPU and >memory. However, I unearthed one today which held much of the system >logic on the backplane itself (i.e. more like a modern-day PC >motherboard - I'd heard such things existed, but this is the first one I've actually seen). >Unfortunately I forgot to bring the thing home with me, so I'm a bit >light on remembered details (but can get more tomorrow if needs be). >However, it appeared to have both an 8088 and 8085 CPU on board, >memory, what is probably ROM, a handful of S100-bus [1] connectors, >parallel port, a light-pen port (unusual!), plus a few other ports (at >least one was serial I expect). There were a few other IDC-style pin >headers too - perhaps for some sort of storage, but none of them were obviously labeled as to function. > >Sound familiar to anyone? From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 22 18:35:21 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:35:21 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <200709221700.l8MH0qRT033138@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000b01c7fd71$3e248120$6500a8c0@barry> Using the 8085 instead of a Z-80 was absolutely the right decision (and if you are wondering, who made that decision ..... it was me). The objective was to do a dual processor system with an 8088 and some 8-bit CPU that would run CP/M. It would have been extremely difficult to have done that with a Z-80, it was trivial with an 8085 (using a Z-80 would probably have taken an additional almost 2 dozen ICs ... the external hardware and bus interfaces and signals were just totally different). Further, the performance of the 8085 was (ok, arguably) higher .... true, we were stuck with the 8080 instruction set, but the 8085 ran at 5MHz (later 6MHz) with FAR better timing margins than a 4MHz Z-80. There were things that, in retrospect, we might have done differently (strapping the 8088 for "min" mode instead of "max" mode, for example), but using the 8085 wasn't one of them. All commercial software used 8080 instructions, and the machine was primarily for running MS-DOS anyway. From our perspective (as the manufacturer) we never felt a downside to that decision. Barry Watzman Former computer product line director Heathkit and Zenith Data Systems On Friday 21 September 2007 13:56, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Unlike the Rainbow, the use of the 8085 was probably not such a great > idea after Heath/Zenith had been producing Z-80 systems. I wonder why they went with that part? I seem to remember some others that used it as well, though specifics are not coming to mind at the moment. I have a bunch of those on hand, and think about doing something with them from time to time. It's a fairly easy chip to use, with an eprom and a ram chip and a single address latch, I just haven't decided yet what I'm gonna do with it. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 22 18:45:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:45:28 -0700 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <000b01c7fd71$3e248120$6500a8c0@barry> References: <200709221700.l8MH0qRT033138@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <000b01c7fd71$3e248120$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <46F546A8.28665.339C8A90@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2007 at 19:35, Barry Watzman wrote: > It would have been extremely difficult to have done that with a Z-80, > it was trivial with an 8085 (using a Z-80 would probably have taken an > additional almost 2 dozen ICs ... the external hardware and bus > interfaces and signals were just totally different). Further, the > performance of the 8085 was (ok, arguably) higher Was using an NSC800 ever discussed? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Sep 22 19:43:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:43:32 -0600 Subject: govliq pooling? Message-ID: How many of you are located near government liquidation preview areas? I'm wondering if we can't pool our efforts a little in evaluating lots on govliquidation.com by helping each other preview stuff that is local to us but not to someone else. I'm local to Hill Air Force Base in Ogden, UT. Anyone else? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 21:54:46 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:54:46 -0500 Subject: Help identifying a PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <46EE3FA40200003700011BBC@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <46EE3FA40200003700011BBC@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <624966d60709221954x74282c12h4846aacf7ca61014@mail.gmail.com> The RDC has "property od DEC- not for sale" on the etch, for whatever that is worth. I think the 11/70's in the corp cab had blue switches, and the ones in the H960 had the standard colors. I should have all three left. Paul On 9/17/07, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Can anyone help me identify my latest PDP-11 rescue. Not been able to > > get a good look at it yet as it is in a room packed (and I mean packed) > > with junk. Machine consists of a DEC Datasystems cab (about 35-40U with > > a blue bottom panel, pretty similar to light blue cabs here: > > http://www.computermuseum.li/Liste/Digital/PDP11.70.4.html) > > > I'm not familiar with the DEC Datasystems versions of PDP-11s. Does > > anyone have any background information on them? > > > Also, I'm pretty sure I've not lucked out and found an 11/70 as no > > toggle switch console, any ideas on what other models were fitted to > > these cabs. I'm guessing 11/34. > > That is an 11/70, but with the "remote diagnostics console". You will > find a M8255 KY11-RE in there to connect up a modem to give remote console > access. Probably hooked up to a modem that was owned by DEC maintenance > org and leased as part of the maintenance agreement. I'm sure that > sometimes they asked for the modem and console back if the maintenance > contract was terminated but as a practical matter I find that they hardly > ever reclaimed the equipment. > > Tim. > > > > From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 22 22:44:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:44:57 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <000b01c7fd71$3e248120$6500a8c0@barry> References: <000b01c7fd71$3e248120$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200709222344.57612.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 22 September 2007 19:35, Barry Watzman wrote: > All commercial software used 8080 instructions, Well, no. Two that I know of that did require a z80 were Turbo Pascal and Mix C. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 22:58:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:58:57 -0600 Subject: govliq pooling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/22/07, Richard wrote: > How many of you are located near government liquidation preview areas? > > I'm wondering if we can't pool our efforts a little in evaluating lots > on govliquidation.com by helping each other preview stuff that is > local to us but not to someone else. > > I'm local to Hill Air Force Base in Ogden, UT. > > Anyone else? I am across town from DFAS in Columbus, OH, but I won't be able to help preview stuff until 2009 (when I get back from my next trip down South). -ethan From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 22 23:11:07 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 00:11:07 -0400 Subject: govliq pooling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200709230411.l8N4B8RP069072@billy.ezwind.net> I too am across town from DFAS but unlike Ethan I have no plans on gowing that far south, I moved here to get away from the cold :) The other Bob On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:43:32 -0600, Richard wrote: >How many of you are located near government liquidation preview areas? >I'm wondering if we can't pool our efforts a little in evaluating lots >on govliquidation.com by helping each other preview stuff that is >local to us but not to someone else. >I'm local to Hill Air Force Base in Ogden, UT. >Anyone else? >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 22 23:34:53 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:34:53 -0700 Subject: Unknows S-100 System Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> > On 22 Sep 2007 at 19:35, Barry Watzman wrote:> > > It would have been extremely difficult to have done that with a Z-80,> > it was trivial with an 8085 (using a Z-80 would probably have taken an> > additional almost 2 dozen ICs ... the external hardware and bus> > interfaces and signals were just totally different). Further, the> > performance of the 8085 was (ok, arguably) higher > > Was using an NSC800 ever discussed?> Hi Chuck I saw someone mention the NSC800. I don't think it was mentioned that the NSC800 runs Z80 instructions but has the exact same pins and interface as the 8085. I don't recall if the NSC800 had the serial instructions of the 8085 but in this case, I don't think that is an issue. It was true that the 8085 had just about as fast an execution as the Z80, without the extra instructions of the Z80. This was true for all but the tightest loops using some of the special Z80 instructions. I recall when I was working at Intel, we looked at many of the Z80 instructions and found them to not be anything but code efficient with comparable speeds. I have a couple NSC800s but not as separate packages. They are in MA2000 modules. The NSC800 also has the advanges of being CMOS. This means lower power than either the 8085 or Z80. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 22 23:39:20 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:39:20 -0700 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <000b01c7fd71$3e248120$6500a8c0@barry> References: <200709221700.l8MH0qRT033138@dewey.classiccmp.org> <000b01c7fd71$3e248120$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: > From: Watzman at neo.rr.com> ---snip---> > On Friday 21 September 2007 13:56, Chuck Guzis wrote:> > Unlike the Rainbow, the use of the 8085 was probably not such a great> > idea after Heath/Zenith had been producing Z-80 systems.> > I wonder why they went with that part? I seem to remember some others that > used it as well, though specifics are not coming to mind at the moment. I > have a bunch of those on hand, and think about doing something with them > from time to time. It's a fairly easy chip to use, with an eprom and a ram> > chip and a single address latch, I just haven't decided yet what I'm gonna > do with it. Hi I have a S-100 CPU board with both the 8088 and 8085. I don't recall the manufacture but is was one of the common ones. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos; more messages; more whatever ? Get MORE with Windows Live? Hotmail?. NOW with 5GB storage. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 23 00:34:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 22:34:21 -0700 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F5986D.30958.34DBF0E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2007 at 21:34, dwight elvey wrote: > I saw someone mention the NSC800. I don't think it was mentioned > that the NSC800 runs Z80 instructions but has the exact same > pins and interface as the 8085. Not the same pinout at all; and some signals have inverted polarity. What's similar is the timing (so the 8085 peripheral chips work)--and the multiplexed data/address bus. It has the three "half-INT" signals, but TRAPs to 0066h, like the Z80 and not 0024H like the 8085. There are no RIM and SIM instructions, and therefore, no SID/SOD pins. There is also a low-power "sleep" feature. To control the masking of the half-interrupt pins, since there's no SIM instruction, there is a mask register located at I/O port 0BBh, accessed by executing an output instruction--but only when accessing the port via the indiirect "input/output to (C)" instructions; the 0D3h output and 0DBh input to immediate port function normally, without accessing the internal register at 0BBh. I never really considered the Z80 to be faster than the 8085, with perhaps the exception of the 2-byte jump instructions. For everything else, the Z80 seemed to be roughly as fast for most things. But the Z80 was easier to program, particularly with the IX and IY registers, particularly with the 8-bit displacement. And I suppose interrupt servicing could be faster for high-priority interrupts where the alternate register set could be used. One real pain with the 8085 was the input and output instructions. No indirection at all; just an immediate-valued port. One of the engineers set up a peripheral that mapped into 64 I/O locations that essentially forced us into self-modifying code to plug the port address into a DBh or D3h instruction. That wasn't too bad normally, but we had to access the ports during POST, which meant moving the code to RAM from ROM so we could modify the I/O instructions. What irritated me was that Intel never documented the additional 8085 instructions, even though they seemed to be present on every version of the chip Intel (and second sources) ever produced. Because they weren't "officially" documented, we adopted a policy that they should not be used to avoid possible future "surprises". I've got about 20 of the 40-pin DIP NSC800s; 3MHz ones, I believe. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 23 00:46:05 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 22:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: case cracker Message-ID: Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of some sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll settle for one that looks like the one on this page: http://www.answers.com/topic/case-cracker -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 23 01:10:41 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:10:41 -0700 Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:46 PM -0700 9/22/07, David Griffith wrote: >Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of some >sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll >settle for one that looks like the one on this page: > >http://www.answers.com/topic/case-cracker I've used a clamp like you would use for holding up a tarp while welding. Yes, this is a really bad explanation. You shove the tip in the crack, and as you squeeze the clamp open, it pries the case apart. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 01:36:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 00:36:36 -0600 Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/23/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:46 PM -0700 9/22/07, David Griffith wrote: > >Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of some > >sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll > >settle for one that looks like the one on this page: > > > >http://www.answers.com/topic/case-cracker > > I've used a clamp like you would use for holding up a tarp while > welding. Yes, this is a really bad explanation. You shove the tip > in the crack, and as you squeeze the clamp open, it pries the case > apart. That is, essentially, what at least the third-party crackers were - a flat-metal A-frame spring-clamp with a tip about 3/4" wide, and thin enough that the tips on both sides would fit in the groove around the Mac case. They are commonly made of chromed sheet metal with red plastic-dip handles. Hopefully that description will help you spot one in a hardware/home improvement store. They shouldn't be expensive. -ethan From feedle at feedle.net Sun Sep 23 01:40:58 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:40:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43507.76.105.243.156.1190529658.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> > > Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of some > sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll > settle for one that looks like the one on this page: > > http://www.answers.com/topic/case-cracker I always was under the impression that a "Mac cracker" was a T-15 Torx with a eight-inch long handle, not some crazy contraption to pry apart two case pieces... From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 23 01:43:51 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: <43507.76.105.243.156.1190529658.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> from "feedle@feedle.net" at "Sep 22, 7 11:40:58 pm" Message-ID: <200709230643.l8N6hpjl012160@floodgap.com> > > Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of some > > sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll > > settle for one that looks like the one on this page: > > > > http://www.answers.com/topic/case-cracker > > I always was under the impression that a "Mac cracker" was a T-15 Torx > with a eight-inch long handle, not some crazy contraption to pry apart two > case pieces... The answer is both. There was a case splitter sold as a Mac Cracker, and the longhandled T15 Torx driver was also sold under the same name (and still is, last time I looked in Fry's), just to be confusing. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Man fears Time, yet Time fears the Pyramids. -- Arab proverb --------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 01:45:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 00:45:25 -0600 Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: <43507.76.105.243.156.1190529658.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> References: <43507.76.105.243.156.1190529658.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: On 9/23/07, feedle at feedle.net wrote: > > > > > Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of some > > sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll > > settle for one that looks like the one on this page: > > > > http://www.answers.com/topic/case-cracker > > I always was under the impression that a "Mac cracker" was a T-15 Torx > with a eight-inch long handle, not some crazy contraption to pry apart two > case pieces... My recollection was that the "cracker" was the pry tool, but was frequently packaged with an extra-long T-15 torx (8" sounds about right)... the whole kit could have been sold as a "Mac Cracker Kit", though. -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 22 07:29:07 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:29:07 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system Message-ID: <0JOR00JGLS0DB3K9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Unknown S100 system > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:35:41 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Friday 21 September 2007 16:01, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 21 Sep 2007 at 14:07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> > I wonder why they went with that part? I seem to remember some others >> > that used it as well, though specifics are not coming to mind at the >> > moment. I have a bunch of those on hand, and think about doing >> > something with them from time to time. It's a fairly easy chip to use, >> > with an eprom and a ram chip and a single address latch, I just haven't >> > decided yet what I'm gonna do with it. >> >> Compupro 85/88 board; my own Durango F-85 and a host of others. If >> you can find some of the support chips (8155, 8755), the parts count >> can be very low, given the vintage of the 8085. > >Compupro was the one that was hanging out there at the edge of recall... There was a really nice 8085 system on a board that ran CP/M from Autocontrol the AC-85. Its featurees were a 5mhz 8085, DMA, 64k ram, FDC, 3 serial channels and a real time clock interrupt. What made it unique is the DMA was there to support the FDC for full DSDD 8" and it also unburdened the cpu for background tasks and interrupt servicing. >I may have some of those support chips, too. 8155 (and 8156, which is the >same part with a different select pin polarity if I'm remembering right) >sound real familiar. I have the 8085 Cookbook and a few others that Sams put >out, one covering this text editor and assembler (which I didn't really care >for, but...). No interest in the ROM-based 8355 and I've never seen the >EPROM-based 8755. The relative i/o and RAM address mapping of those parts >gets a little confusing, though, and the book is a bit less clear than it >could be on that aspect of it. I have tubes of the 8085 support chips (8155, 8156, 8755) they can also be used with 8048, 8051, 8088 or pairs for the 8086. The Eprom 8755 is easy to find and still available from various sources. A system using an 8085, 8155, 8755 has the following: 2k Eprom 256bytes ram 1 Timer (8155) 38 io lines (8755 and 8155) 3 maskable interrupts 1 trap (non maskable interrupt) SID and SOD lines (serial IO) It is/was popular in embedded systems and robotics. They were also available in CMOS and Rad-hard CMOS making them useful for extraterrestrial systems. >> I suspect that the reason 8088/8085 pairs were fairly common in >> comparison to Z80/8088 pairs was that timings and buses on the 8088 >> and 8085 are *very* similar and getting them to work with 8000-series >> peripherals was very easy. IIRC, one could even replace an 8085 with >> an 8088 (assuming you were restricting it to 64K addressing) with a >> minimum of "glue". Both multiplex the data lines on A0-A7 the same >> way. Exactly. Also the 8085 was available to at least 6mhz. The 64k/1m addressing differnce was taken care of with a simple address mapping scheme for the 8085. Compupro used it as most using the 8088 and later boards wer more interested in the 16bit cpu rather than any of the 8 bitters so z80/8085 was not an issue as it was a migration tool and allowed the use of older CP/M software. Most CP/M commercial software ran the 8080 programming model. >> I suspect it might be easier to substitute an NSC800 for an 8085 if >> Z80 functionality is needed than trying to shoehorn in a Z80. > >That's another part I have no familiarity with at all at this point in time, >though of course I've heard of it. Not easilly done as the NSC800 is both scarce and it's timing is different enough to complicate matters. > >With regard to what little programming I've done, the thing I like most about >the z80 is relative jumps, which makes relocatable code easy to do. The >other big deal is the alternate register set and the index registers, which >I really haven't used all that much. > The items that make z80 desireable for programming to me are the repeat instructions (LDIR) and the loop (DJNZ) plus some of the smaller instructions that make the CPU more symetrical. It always bugged me that 8080 can load the SP but storing it required clearing the HL and adding SP to HL. What makes the 8085 appealing is in small systems it has hardware advantages like internal clock oscillator, multiple maskable interrupts, two pins for single bit IO (SID/SOD), easier timing compared to z80. It doesnt hurt that it's an upward 8080. it also doesnt hurt that faster parts (6mhz) had far less difficult memory timing than 6mhz z80. It's also common as house flies still. NSC800, had a short product life, I don't think National ever got it faster than 4mhz, production volumes were small and I rarely ever see one. 8088/86, hardware around it was easy, hated programming it. Always felt it was an 8080 with a bag on the side and borrowed the worst z80 features. It's big cache was it's was 16bit and had the ability to address 1mb. Allison From paul0926 at comcast.net Sat Sep 22 18:54:27 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 17:54:27 -0600 Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal Message-ID: <44B1E431-4682-4C21-A1AA-C9778A29BA8B@comcast.net> I just acquired an old IBM 3279 mainframe terminal. I used one of these back in the early '80s. Anyone know of any kits or technology or techniques to hook this up to something useful (perhaps an RS-232 or S100 interface or PCI interface) or is this just a boat anchor (I don't happen to have an old IBM mainframe handy)? Paul From spector at zeitgeist.com Sun Sep 23 01:58:18 2007 From: spector at zeitgeist.com (David HM Spector) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 02:58:18 -0400 Subject: FREE: Long Island, NY, full-sized Printronix dot matrix line printer Message-ID: I am de-cluttering in advance of a move to the bay area... and need to give away some excess classic hardware. Available is a full-sized Printronix line printer. In pretty good shape; with extra ribbons. Works pretty well given it's ~25 yrs old. Please contact me via email ONLY. This printer is in the Huntington, LI area, and for pickup only. You'll need a small truck or a pickup, it will NOT fit into a station-wagon or SUV. _DHMS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David HM Spector spector (at) zeitgeist (dot) com http://www.zeitgeist.com/ ~ ~ ~ "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'" --H . G. Wells From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 04:32:41 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:32:41 +1000 Subject: Old PC BBS software References: Message-ID: <001701c7fdc4$b22b7bc0$0100a8c0@pentium> Wondering if anyone on the list can help - I'm after a copy of Micro-Systems Software's BBS-PC! for the IBM PC (was released in 1987 - last version). I don't need the Amiga version. cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org // From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 23 06:26:11 2007 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:26:11 +0300 Subject: Moto MVME121 paper Message-ID: Hi Chuck, I have a lot of interest, do You still have it?. Please continue with email mnusa2 at hotmail.com. BR Matti >Under the heading of "where did *that* come from?", I've stumbled on >a loose leaf binder from Motorola titled "MVME121 System Hardware >Manual". There are several publications within, but the bulk of the >binder's taken up by a document called "MVME319 Intelligent Disk/Tape >Controller User's Manual", which contains all sorts of detail, >including principles of operation, command layouts and schematics. >Circa 1986.>>A customer must've sent it to me; I have no use for it. Anyone want >it for the cost of shipping?>>Cheers,>Chuck _________________________________________________________________ Lataa NYT Windows Live Messengerin uusin versio! http://get.live.com/fi-fi/messenger/overview From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 06:45:24 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 04:45:24 -0700 Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: References: <43507.76.105.243.156.1190529658.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: <6d6501090709230445u772d4f7bnaeb05764173bc326@mail.gmail.com> if u cant find a real mac cracker have u tried using a "buldog clip" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog_clip Chris On 9/22/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 9/23/07, feedle at feedle.net wrote: > > > > > > > > Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of > some > > > sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll > > > settle for one that looks like the one on this page: > > > > > > http://www.answers.com/topic/case-cracker > > > > I always was under the impression that a "Mac cracker" was a T-15 Torx > > with a eight-inch long handle, not some crazy contraption to pry apart > two > > case pieces... > > My recollection was that the "cracker" was the pry tool, but was > frequently packaged with an extra-long T-15 torx (8" sounds about > right)... the whole kit could have been sold as a "Mac Cracker Kit", > though. > > -ethan > From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 07:30:38 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 05:30:38 -0700 Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: <6d6501090709230445u772d4f7bnaeb05764173bc326@mail.gmail.com> References: <43507.76.105.243.156.1190529658.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> <6d6501090709230445u772d4f7bnaeb05764173bc326@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090709230530h769b683axf2866399e9f177c7@mail.gmail.com> here is a post i found on a foresale board i dont know this person at all FS*: CASE CRACKER KIT - $14.95.* Spreader tool and extended allen wrench tool necessary to open early Mac 128k & later 68000 (compact Macs). Includes instructions on how to open the case and discharge the otherwise dangerously high voltage CRT. Add $3.00 S&H. Contact seller. ------------------------------ On 9/23/07, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > if u cant find a real mac cracker have u tried using a "buldog clip" > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog_clip > > Chris > > > On 9/22/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > On 9/23/07, feedle at feedle.net < feedle at feedle.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of > > some > > > > sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so > > I'll > > > > settle for one that looks like the one on this page: > > > > > > > > http://www.answers.com/topic/case-cracker > > > > > > I always was under the impression that a "Mac cracker" was a T-15 Torx > > > > > with a eight-inch long handle, not some crazy contraption to pry apart > > two > > > case pieces... > > > > My recollection was that the "cracker" was the pry tool, but was > > frequently packaged with an extra-long T-15 torx (8" sounds about > > right)... the whole kit could have been sold as a "Mac Cracker Kit", > > though. > > > > -ethan > > > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Sep 23 09:29:12 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 07:29:12 -0700 Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <44B1E431-4682-4C21-A1AA-C9778A29BA8B@comcast.net> References: <44B1E431-4682-4C21-A1AA-C9778A29BA8B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46F67838.1030408@msm.umr.edu> Paul Heller wrote: > I just acquired an old IBM 3279 mainframe terminal. I used one of > these back in the early '80s. Anyone know of any kits or technology > or techniques to hook this up to something useful (perhaps an RS-232 > or S100 interface or PCI interface) or is this just a boat anchor (I > don't happen to have an old IBM mainframe handy)? > > Paul > > with a 3174 - 63 which is the controller, with a token ring, or one of the models with an etherenet you can hook them to a hercules emulated mainframe. which you do have as handy as a laptop. Jim From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 11:23:32 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:23:32 -0700 Subject: govliq pooling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/22/07, Richard wrote: > How many of you are located near government liquidation preview areas? > > I'm wondering if we can't pool our efforts a little in evaluating lots > on govliquidation.com by helping each other preview stuff that is > local to us but not to someone else. > > I'm local to Hill Air Force Base in Ogden, UT. > > Anyone else? I am a couple of hours away and am familiar with Fort Lewis in Washington. I have bought from their local sales years ago. I also can do inspections from Eugene, Oregon north To Seattle if I have the time. I used to do GSA sales in the late 1980s and 1990s so I am quite familiar with their process. I am also familiar with shipping from pallets to containers. I also bought from Ross Dove, the states of Oregon and Washington and all the universities and hospitals in the region. I am pretty much retired now but still like looking at equipment, And I make monthly trips to Euigene for a non profit I work with. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 23 11:35:38 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:35:38 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <46F5986D.30958.34DBF0E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46F5986D.30958.34DBF0E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709231235.39106.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 23 September 2007 01:34, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Sep 2007 at 21:34, dwight elvey wrote: > > I saw someone mention the NSC800. I don't think it was mentioned > > that the NSC800 runs Z80 instructions but has the exact same > > pins and interface as the 8085. > > Not the same pinout at all; and some signals have inverted polarity. > What's similar is the timing (so the 8085 peripheral chips work)--and > the multiplexed data/address bus. It has the three "half-INT" > signals, but TRAPs to 0066h, like the Z80 and not 0024H like the > 8085. There are no RIM and SIM instructions, and therefore, no > SID/SOD pins. There is also a low-power "sleep" feature. > > To control the masking of the half-interrupt pins, since there's no > SIM instruction, there is a mask register located at I/O port 0BBh, > accessed by executing an output instruction--but only when accessing > the port via the indiirect "input/output to (C)" instructions; the > 0D3h output and 0DBh input to immediate port function normally, > without accessing the internal register at 0BBh. That's odd. :-) > I never really considered the Z80 to be faster than the 8085, with > perhaps the exception of the 2-byte jump instructions. For > everything else, the Z80 seemed to be roughly as fast for most > things. But the Z80 was easier to program, particularly with the IX > and IY registers, particularly with the 8-bit displacement. I never really made use of those, myself, nor saw much source code for stuff that did. > And I suppose interrupt servicing could be faster for high-priority > interrupts where the alternate register set could be used. That's what Osborne did on the Executive, in their 1.2 ROM, which turned out to be a mistake for software that wanted to use that alternate register set. >From what I understand this was a problem with Turbo Pascal (which I never used), I found it to be a problem with Mix C, where attempting to do anything dropped you back to a command prompt. The solution initially was to automatically run a little program I found out there called "TPATCH" (I guess for Turbo Pascal), that patched the code. Eventually I got an image for the 1.21 ROM and burned one and put it in there, which changed that bit of code. The Exec's technical manuals contain ROM source and detail this. > One real pain with the 8085 was the input and output instructions. > No indirection at all; just an immediate-valued port. One of the > engineers set up a peripheral that mapped into 64 I/O locations that > essentially forced us into self-modifying code to plug the port > address into a DBh or D3h instruction. That wasn't too bad normally, > but we had to access the ports during POST, which meant moving the > code to RAM from ROM so we could modify the I/O instructions. That I/O capability and relative jumps are what I like most about the Z80. > What irritated me was that Intel never documented the additional 8085 > instructions, even though they seemed to be present on every version > of the chip Intel (and second sources) ever produced. Because they > weren't "officially" documented, we adopted a policy that they should > not be used to avoid possible future "surprises". What are these? I remember some stuff in the magazines early on (probably Byte, in its first year of publication or so) and have run across some stuff on the 'net about undocumented z80 opcodes, most of which don't seem to be terribly useful, but this is the first I've heard of undocumented 8085 codes. > I've got about 20 of the 40-pin DIP NSC800s; 3MHz ones, I believe. Do you know of any handy data online for the part? A basic overview and maybe some info on the instruction set and hardware would be nice. Somehow or other I never managed to get a hold of any when that chip hit the market. Are those easy enough to find these days if one wanted to play with 'em? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 23 11:56:42 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:56:42 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system In-Reply-To: <0JOR00JGLS0DB3K9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JOR00JGLS0DB3K9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200709231256.42235.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 22 September 2007 08:29, Allison wrote: > >With regard to what little programming I've done, the thing I like most > > about the z80 is relative jumps, which makes relocatable code easy to > > do. The other big deal is the alternate register set and the index > > registers, which I really haven't used all that much. > > The items that make z80 desireable for programming to me are the repeat > instructions (LDIR) and the loop (DJNZ) Aside from making source a bit more compact, those seemed to, like a lot of other stuff, require the use of particular registers, etc. that I might have other uses for at the time. And didn't seem to offer that much of a speed advantage. I never got into them all that much. > plus some of the smaller instructions that make the CPU more symetrical. It > always bugged me that 8080 can load the SP but storing it required clearing > the HL and adding SP to HL. Yes! It also bugged me that you could swap HL and DE easily enough, but not HL and BC, or DE and BC. That being a single-byte instruction that executed fairly quickly, as I recall... A bit more symmetry all around would've been nice, for sure. > What makes the 8085 appealing is in small systems it has hardware > advantages like internal clock oscillator, multiple maskable interrupts, > two pins for single bit IO (SID/SOD), easier timing compared to z80. It > doesnt hurt that it's an upward 8080. it also doesnt hurt that faster parts > (6mhz) had far less difficult memory timing than 6mhz z80. It's also common > as house flies still. > > NSC800, had a short product life, I don't think National ever got it > faster than 4mhz, production volumes were small and I rarely ever see > one. National seemed to do that a lot. > 8088/86, hardware around it was easy, hated programming it. Always felt > it was an 8080 with a bag on the side and borrowed the worst z80 features. > It's big cache was it's was 16bit and had the ability to address 1mb. That approach to things struck me as an abomination the first time I looked at it, and I never really got all that interested in doing much of anything with it at the assembler level -- if I need to program something that has one of those in it I'll do it in c or whatever, so I don't have to be bothered with all those messy details. It's unfortunate that this is the chip family that the industry seems to have settled on, mostly. I feel the same way about a lot of the intel-type (and similar) peripheral chips -- write-only registers? WTH? I suppose that some aspect or other of chip design pushed things in that direction, but looking at it from just the perspective of programming the things, I don't see where I/O address space was all that scarce a resource, really. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 23 13:40:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:40:29 -0700 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <200709231235.39106.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <46F5986D.30958.34DBF0E3@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709231235.39106.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46F650AD.27487.37ABAA5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2007 at 12:35, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > without accessing the internal register at 0BBh. > > That's odd. :-) In a way, it makes sense. Consider that they needed *some* way to access the mask register. They could perhaps take one of the "no op" instructions, such as "ld c,c" and detail it off for special duty, but that's taking an awful gamble that the code doesn't actually appear anywhere. The 8085 RIM/SIM opcodes are already taken by the relative jumps, so what to do? Reserve an I/O address and do your best to make sure that 8085-type I/O doesn't inadvertently access it by restricting the access to Z80 indirect I/O. At least if one hits the port with some legacy Z80 I/O, it's easy to find. > I never really made use of those, myself, nor saw much source code for stuff > that did. This comes in very handy for stack-relative and table addressing. For the 8085: LXI HL,offset on stack DAD SP MOV C,M (5 bytes) (repeat for every reference) For the Z80: LD IX,0 ADD IX,SP (done only once at function entry) LD C,[IX+offset] (3 bytes) and it leaves HL free for other uses. The limitation, of course, is that the displacement for the Z80 case can't exceed 255 locations-- but that generally isn't a big issue with a lot of x80 C code. > What are these? I remember some stuff in the magazines early on (probably > Byte, in its first year of publication or so) and have run across some stuff > on the 'net about undocumented z80 opcodes, most of which don't seem to be > terribly useful, but this is the first I've heard of undocumented 8085 > codes. Make up your own mnemonics for these: 08 HL <= HL-BC All flags affected 10 Rotate HL 1 bit right No flags affected 18 Rotate DE 1 bit left Carry = old bit 15 28 Add immediate 8 bit value to HL All flags affected 38 Add immediate 8 bit value to SP All flags affected CB If the V (overflow) flag is set, CALL 0040H DE Load HL with the 16-bit value pointed to by DE D9 Store HL into the 16-bit location pointed to by DE In addition, some 8 bit instructions affect bit 5 of the flags register (in a way that I don't completely understand). DD xx xx will jump to xxxx if this bit is clear, ED xx xx will jump to xxxx if this bit is set. >From my viewpoint, some of these instructions look like afterthoughts- -but some would have been useful in a couple of instances. The biggest implication of the above, however, is that there's an ugly trap for the lowly coder who decided that 08/10/18/28/38 was a no-op. > Do you know of any handy data online for the part? A basic overview and maybe > some info on the instruction set and hardware would be nice. Somehow or > other I never managed to get a hold of any when that chip hit the market. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/preview/2602635.html > Are those easy enough to find these days if one wanted to play with 'em? Not terribly difficult--there were a few commercial personal computers that used them, mostly for the CMOS power advantage. There's an eval kit from NSC on ePay right now. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 23 13:54:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:54:55 -0700 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <200709231235.39106.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <46F5986D.30958.34DBF0E3@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709231235.39106.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46F6540F.12145.37B8E2A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2007 at 12:35, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Do you know of any handy data online for the part? A basic overview and maybe > some info on the instruction set and hardware would be nice. Somehow or > other I never managed to get a hold of any when that chip hit the market. The NSC800 hit the market in 1981; by then, a lot of firms were already planning their 16-bit entry. As was usual with NSCs marketing group, I was completely oblivious to the existence of the thing until I'd moved on to the 8086/80186. The timing of the product by National was very odd. And the initial speed offering--1 MHz--was insane, considering that the 4MHz Z80 was common fare and I think the Z80B and Z80H may have been available by then (I'm not certain, though). Had the chip been available with a decent speed (say, 4MHz) in, say, 1979, we might well have used it. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 23 14:10:42 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:10:42 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <46F650AD.27487.37ABAA5A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709231235.39106.rtellason@verizon.net> <46F650AD.27487.37ABAA5A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709231510.42726.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 23 September 2007 14:40, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Sep 2007 at 12:35, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > without accessing the internal register at 0BBh. > > > > That's odd. :-) > > In a way, it makes sense. Consider that they needed *some* way to > access the mask register. They could perhaps take one of the "no op" > instructions, such as "ld c,c" and detail it off for special duty, > but that's taking an awful gamble that the code doesn't actually > appear anywhere. The 8085 RIM/SIM opcodes are already taken by the > relative jumps, so what to do? Reserve an I/O address and do your > best to make sure that 8085-type I/O doesn't inadvertently access it > by restricting the access to Z80 indirect I/O. At least if one hits > the port with some legacy Z80 I/O, it's easy to find. > > > I never really made use of those, myself, nor saw much source code for > > stuff that did. > > This comes in very handy for stack-relative and table addressing. > For the 8085: > > LXI HL,offset on stack > DAD SP > MOV C,M (5 bytes) > > (repeat for every reference) > > For the Z80: > > LD IX,0 > ADD IX,SP (done only once at function entry) > > LD C,[IX+offset] (3 bytes) > > and it leaves HL free for other uses. The limitation, of course, is > that the displacement for the Z80 case can't exceed 255 locations-- > but that generally isn't a big issue with a lot of x80 C code. I did at one point attempt a small monitor program, and it did seem to be able to fit within a 2716, back when. It was table-driven, only I went into it with the offset in A and the table could have 256 entries. ASCII characters mapped to specific functions, and the higher half was used for stuff that wasn't intended to be accessed from the keyboard. And unprogrammed EPROM was taken into account too -- it would vector to a short routine that would print "CRASH!"... :-) Aside from my use of relative jumps for slightly better code compactness, I think it probably would have run equally well on z80 or 8080 or 8085. I gotta dig the source for that out one of these days, if I can find it... > > What are these? I remember some stuff in the magazines early on > > (probably Byte, in its first year of publication or so) and have run > > across some stuff on the 'net about undocumented z80 opcodes, most of > > which don't seem to be terribly useful, but this is the first I've heard > > of undocumented 8085 codes. > > Make up your own mnemonics for these: > > 08 HL <= HL-BC All flags affected > 10 Rotate HL 1 bit right No flags affected > 18 Rotate DE 1 bit left Carry = old bit 15 > 28 Add immediate 8 bit value to HL All flags affected > 38 Add immediate 8 bit value to SP All flags affected > CB If the V (overflow) flag is set, CALL 0040H > DE Load HL with the 16-bit value pointed to by DE > D9 Store HL into the 16-bit location pointed to by DE Some of those look to be pretty handy, particularly those last two, which would save a bunch of shuffling things around because of the normal asymmetry of the instruction set... > In addition, some 8 bit instructions affect bit 5 of the flags register (in > a way that I don't completely understand). DD xx xx will jump to xxxx if > this bit is clear, ED xx xx will jump to xxxx if this bit is set. Hm. I wonder if they had intended a use for that? > >From my viewpoint, some of these instructions look like afterthoughts- > > -but some would have been useful in a couple of instances. > > The biggest implication of the above, however, is that there's an > ugly trap for the lowly coder who decided that 08/10/18/28/38 was a > no-op. Oh yeah. > > Do you know of any handy data online for the part? A basic overview and > > maybe some info on the instruction set and hardware would be nice. > > Somehow or other I never managed to get a hold of any when that chip hit > > the market. > > http://www.datasheetarchive.com/preview/2602635.html I'll have a look then. > > Are those easy enough to find these days if one wanted to play with 'em? > > Not terribly difficult--there were a few commercial personal > computers that used them, mostly for the CMOS power advantage. > There's an eval kit from NSC on ePay right now. No big hurry on my part, I have all these other 8-bit parts I keep meaning to get around to playing with still. Not as bad as youse guys out there collecting the bigger stuff, but... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 23 14:35:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:35:12 -0700 Subject: Moto MVME121 paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F65D80.7439.37DDC3FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2007 at 14:26, Matti Nummi wrote: > I have a lot of interest, do You still have it?. > Please continue with email mnusa2 at hotmail.com. > BR Hi Matti, When I get of my posterior, there are a couple of documents along with that one that I'll be shipping to Al Kossov. I assume that he'll get it on Bitsavers at some point. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 23 14:48:45 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:48:45 -0700 Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: <6d6501090709230445u772d4f7bnaeb05764173bc326@mail.gmail.com> References: <43507.76.105.243.156.1190529658.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> <6d6501090709230445u772d4f7bnaeb05764173bc326@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:45 AM -0700 9/23/07, Chris Halarewich wrote: >if u cant find a real mac cracker have u tried using a "buldog clip" >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog_clip AKA "Binder Clip", will that even work? I wouldn't think you'd be able to exert the force necessary. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 23 15:00:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 13:00:09 -0700 Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: References: , <6d6501090709230445u772d4f7bnaeb05764173bc326@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <46F66359.24943.37F497C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2007 at 12:48, Zane H. Healy wrote: > AKA "Binder Clip", will that even work? I wouldn't think you'd be > able to exert the force necessary. How about a nice Pony spring clamp? Remove the vinyl "booties" on the tips: https://www.mytoolplace.com/images/adjustableclamp/3201-HT_1.jpg $1.79 according to the listing. Cheers, Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Sep 23 15:34:10 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:34:10 -0500 Subject: ISA 16-bit extender card Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070923151557.0c6fbc40@localhost> I've come across an ISA 16-bit extender card, JDR Microdevices model EXT-80286, http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=gr-ext Is this worth anything to anyone on the list? -T ----- 702. [Intelligence] The intellect is not a serious thing, and never has been. It is an instrument on which one plays, that is all. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 23 13:10:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 22, 7 10:46:05 pm Message-ID: > > > Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of some > sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll > settle for one that looks like the one on this page: I've heard the term 'case cracker' or 'Mac cracker' applied to 2 different tools : A long TX15 Torx driver to fit the screws in the handle of classic Macs; and a thing to fit in the groove between the front and hack parts of the case to force them apart after you've removed the screws. For the formsr, the Xcellite System 99 drivers work well. You need a handle, X5 extension and TX15 blade (the parts should all be available separately, you don't need to buy a set). With the extension, the tool is long enoguh to easily remove those screwsm and the blade itself is long enough so that the joint between it and the extension bar is in the larger part of the handle. For the latter, I've always found that if you remove the battery cover (needed to get at one of the screws), you can press on the battery and the I/O connectors to get the case free.. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 23 18:28:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:28:04 -0400 Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <44B1E431-4682-4C21-A1AA-C9778A29BA8B@comcast.net> References: <44B1E431-4682-4C21-A1AA-C9778A29BA8B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <37039282-113E-416C-B2E6-7C067D074097@neurotica.com> On Sep 22, 2007, at 7:54 PM, Paul Heller wrote: > I just acquired an old IBM 3279 mainframe terminal. I used one of > these back in the early '80s. Anyone know of any kits or technology > or techniques to hook this up to something useful (perhaps an > RS-232 or S100 interface or PCI interface) or is this just a boat > anchor (I don't happen to have an old IBM mainframe handy)? Absolutely no way...it's a mainframe terminal, and can't really ever be anything else. If you want to turn loose of it, drop me a line, as I have a use for it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 23 08:12:39 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:12:39 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System Message-ID: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Unknows S-100 System > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:44:57 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Saturday 22 September 2007 19:35, Barry Watzman wrote: >> All commercial software used 8080 instructions, > >Well, no. Two that I know of that did require a z80 were Turbo Pascal and >Mix C. > >-- What I wrote something similar I used the word "most" as I knew there was some CP/M software that required z80. However from a business user perspective most of the deireable and likely used software like word preocessors, spreadsheets and databases 8080 was just fine save for speed and the 8085 solved that. Also the 8085 was more of a bridge than the ultimate application cpu. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 23 16:48:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:48:18 -0400 Subject: Unknown S100 system Message-ID: <0JOU00E0MCJT3J23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Unknown S100 system > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:56:42 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >On Saturday 22 September 2007 08:29, Allison wrote: >> >With regard to what little programming I've done, the thing I like most >> > about the z80 is relative jumps, which makes relocatable code easy to >> > do. The other big deal is the alternate register set and the index >> > registers, which I really haven't used all that much. >> >> The items that make z80 desireable for programming to me are the repeat >> instructions (LDIR) and the loop (DJNZ) > >Aside from making source a bit more compact, those seemed to, like a lot of >other stuff, require the use of particular registers, etc. that I might >have other uses for at the time. And didn't seem to offer that much of a >speed advantage. I never got into them all that much. They made the source easier to read as well. As to use of registers for block moves in 8080 your likely to use the same set and the same way so no biggie. In balance I like Z80 and it does add some nice expansions. >> plus some of the smaller instructions that make the CPU more symetrical. It >> always bugged me that 8080 can load the SP but storing it required clearing >> the HL and adding SP to HL. > >Yes! It also bugged me that you could swap HL and DE easily enough, but not >HL and BC, or DE and BC. That being a single-byte instruction that executed >fairly quickly, as I recall... Yep, 8080 was very lopsided but I'd guess leaving out some fo the instructions simplified matters back when it meant something. >> 8088/86, hardware around it was easy, hated programming it. Always felt >> it was an 8080 with a bag on the side and borrowed the worst z80 features. >> It's big cache was it's was 16bit and had the ability to address 1mb. > >That approach to things struck me as an abomination the first time I looked at >it, and I never really got all that interested in doing much of anything >with it at the assembler level -- if I need to program something that has one >of those in it I'll do it in c or whatever, so I don't have to be bothered >with all those messy details. It's unfortunate that this is the chip family >that the industry seems to have settled on, mostly. Any 808x or 80x86 I program in high enough level language as to totally obscure the crap underneath. Lowest being database stuff like SQL or maybe Pascal. PC hardware I code for only when people are paying. >I feel the same way about a lot of the intel-type (and similar) peripheral >chips -- write-only registers? WTH? I suppose that some aspect or other of >chip design pushed things in that direction, but looking at it from just the >perspective of programming the things, I don't see where I/O address space >was all that scarce a resource, really. Write only makes sense when you consider it saves addreses and logic in there and likely most will never read it. Some the write is one register and read is another but they share a common address. All in all I've seen better and worse. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 23 16:50:40 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:50:40 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System Message-ID: <0JOU00ARZCNRP60C@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Unknows S-100 System > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:35:38 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" snippage>>>>>>>>> >> What irritated me was that Intel never documented the additional 8085 >> instructions, even though they seemed to be present on every version >> of the chip Intel (and second sources) ever produced. Because they >> weren't "officially" documented, we adopted a policy that they should >> not be used to avoid possible future "surprises". > >What are these? I remember some stuff in the magazines early on (probably >Byte, in its first year of publication or so) and have run across some stuff >on the 'net about undocumented z80 opcodes, most of which don't seem to be >terribly useful, but this is the first I've heard of undocumented 8085 >codes. from my compendium of acient history and useful junk: Hex 8085 Meaning --------------------- 08 SUB HL-BC 10 RRHL ;Rotate HL right. 16-bit rotation, flags unchanged. 10 Shift right HL 18 RLDE Rotate DE left. Bit 15 to Carry. No other flags. 18 Rotate right DE 28bb ADI HL,bb ;Add 00bb immediate to HL, setting flags. 28 Add HL and Immidiate nnnn into DE 38bb ADI SP,bb ;As above but to Stack Pointer. 38 Add SP and Immidiate nnnn into DE CB RSTV8 ;RST 8 (to 0040) if the V flag is set. CB ReSTart on Overflow(V) to 0040h D9 SHLDE ;LD (DE),HL D9 Load [DE] from HL DDaaaa JNK aaaa ;Jump to location aaaa if K flag is reset. DD Jump on 'Not X5' ED LHLDE ;LD HL,(DE) ED Load Hl from [DE] FDaaaa JK aaaa ;Jump to location aaaa if K flag is set. FD Jump on 'X5' bit 8085 7(MSB) S sign 6 Z Zero 5 X5 4 AC aux carry 3 0 2 P parity 1 V overflow 0(LSB) C carry Intel did not further specify the undocumented 8085 instructions. This however means that other assemblers might use different mnemonics for the same function. DSUB 08 10cy HL <- HL - BC Instruction : DSUB [reg] (DSB BC) Function : HL HL - reg (double subtract) Flags : CY, S, X5, AC, Z, V, P Arguments : reg = B for BC (optional) ARHL 10 7cy HL <- HL/2, CY <- L0 Instruction : ARHL (SHRL) Function : HL,CY HL >> 1 (arithmetc right shift) Flags : CY Argument : none RDEL 18 10cy DE <- DE*2, E0 <- CY, CY <- D7 Instruction : RDEL (SLDE) Function : CY,DE DE << 1 (arithmetic right shift) Flags : CY, V Arguments : none LDHI imm 28 dd 10cy DE <- HL + imm Instruction : LDHI d8 (LRI HL,D8) Function : DE HL + d8 (HL + 8bit >DE) Flags : none Arguments : d8 = 8-bit constant LDSI imm 38 dd 10cy DE <- SP + imm Instruction : LDSI d8 (LRI SP,D8) Function : DE SP + d8 (SP+ D8 >DE Flags : none Arguments : d8 = 8-bit constant RSTV CB 6/12cy if(V) push PC, PC <- 40H Instruction : RST flag (RSTV) Function : restart to 40h if flag=1 Flags : none Arguments : flag = V SHLX D9 10cy (DE) <- HL Instruction : SHLX DE Function : DE < [HL] Flags : none Arguments : reg = DE LHLX ED 10cy HL <- (DE) Instruction : LHLX DE Function : [DE] > HL Flags : none Arguments : reg = DE JNX5 addr DD al ah 7/10cy if(!X5) PC <- addr Instruction : JNX5 addr Function : jump to addr if X5=0 Flags : none Arguments : addr = absolute 16-bit address JX5 addr FD al ah 7/10cy if(X5) PC <- addr Instruction : JX5 addr Function : jump to addr if X5=1 Flags : none Arguments : addr = absolute 16-bit address X5 is the otherwise unused bit 5 in the PSW register Allison From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Sep 23 17:12:30 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 18:12:30 -0400 Subject: Quick & Timely Single Board Computer 2/4 Message-ID: <001801c7fe2e$d67c0070$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi. ?Does anyone own any of these boards and can send me a ROM dump? The documentation speaks of multiple versions supporting various FDC boards so I would like to include as many as possible with the documentation bundle. I recently bought a "Quick and Timely" (Q&T) Single Board Computer (SBC) 2/4 for the S-100 bus. ?Fortunately it came with documentation because there does not appear to be any at the usual S-100 documentation archives like bitsavers.org, Howard Harte's, or Majzel's. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/QT%20Computer/ http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/quick%20timely/index.html So I have scanned the documentation which came with the card and will send it to the archives for them to include. The problem is my board did not come with a monitor ROM as mentioned in the documentation. ?This is not a huge problem as I can probably just write one or modify the Dave Dunfield RAMless monitor, burn an EPROM, and plug it in. However, if anyone has one of these boards and would be so kind as to send me a hex dump of their ROM or better yet, a commented assembler source, I will include it in the documentation I am preparing for the archives. ?I would just as soon use the one which came with the Q&T SBC rather than re-invent another one. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From paul0926 at comcast.net Sun Sep 23 22:47:54 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 21:47:54 -0600 Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <46F67838.1030408@msm.umr.edu> References: <44B1E431-4682-4C21-A1AA-C9778A29BA8B@comcast.net> <46F67838.1030408@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <0A92F62D-806D-442B-A6EE-15CFB10C4E58@comcast.net> On Sep 23, 2007, at 8:29 AM, jim s wrote: > with a 3174 - 63 which is the controller, with a token ring, or one > of the models with an etherenet you can hook them to a hercules > emulated mainframe. which you do have as handy as a laptop Well, that's certainly an idea. I'll keep my eye out for a 3174 :-) Paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 24 03:43:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:43:29 -0700 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46F71641.22612.3AAF6C80@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2007 at 9:12, Allison wrote: >> What I wrote something similar I used the word "most" as I knew there was > some CP/M software that required z80. However from a business user > perspective most of the deireable and likely used software like word > preocessors, spreadsheets and databases 8080 was just fine save for > speed and the 8085 solved that. Also the 8085 was more of a bridge > than the ultimate application cpu. We ran into a few vertical apps that required Z80--and I think one of the better word processors (maybe a late Spellbinder?) required a Z80. BASIC dialects were different enough back then (and today) that an application written with a specific Z80 BASIC in mind would get you into trouble with an 8085. It wasn't enough to make us consider developing a Z80 card, since we were marketing our own OS and applications anyway. But I'm certain that the lack of a Z80 cost a few sales. Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Sep 24 05:54:07 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modernish Honeywll-Bull computers available in North Carolina Message-ID: These are totally uninteresting to me, but perhaps someone here finds them worthy of preservation? They a 1980s-1990s era 68000-based beasts as far as I'm told. Not in the best condition. Parts is probably the best description. Contact Jerry for details. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Sep 24 06:24:51 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book Message-ID: CalComp published a book entitled, "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" in the 1970s era that contained documentation for software libraries for using the CalComp plotters. It's relatively obscure. The IBM 1620 Restoration Team at the Computer History Museum needs a copy for a project they are working on to interface a CalComp plotter to the 1620. If you've got a copy you can provide (all they need is a photocopy or scan) please contact Dave Babcock . -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 24 08:08:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:08:39 +0100 Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F7B6D7.8030800@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Mine are both that type (quadrature), but with the same connectors as found on >> the BBC micro's User port. However, whilst they appeared originally to be >> wired to conform to that port's pinouts (i.e. no TTL outputs shorted to ground > > Do the power connections make sense? IIRC, the BBC micro user port has > one row that's 2 power and 8 grounds, the other row is port B of a VIA + > its control lines. Sorry for late reply... Mine were wired as follows: pin function 1 +5V 6 (PB0) Middle button 8 (PB1) Left button 10 (PB2) Right button 14 (PB4) Y1 16 (PB5) Y2 18 (PB6) X1 19 GND 20 (PB7) X2 Whereas the typical pinout for mice on a beeb seems to be one of: pin Variant A Variant B 1 +5V +5V 2 (CB1) X1 X1 4 (CB2) Y1 Y1 5 GND GND 6 (PB0) X2 Left 8 (PB1) -- Middle 10 (PB2) Y2 Right 12 (PB3) -- X2 14 (PB4) -- Y2 16 (PB5) Left -- 18 (PB6) Middle -- 20 (PB7) Right -- ... variant 'A' is the more common AMX/Quest/Acorn mouse pinout. So in the case of my Depraz ones, yes the power signals were OK (as all odd pins > 5 are GND on the User port IIRC), but the signals were all completely different (pin-wise) to either of the two 'standards'. I'm not aware of any Model B / Master software which came with a Depraz mouse - presumably they were quite expensive critters too, implying that the software was perhaps something high-end. Either that or they weren't tied to anything specific, and just sold along with some programming information. >> They're not particularly nice mice to use IMHO - but they are rather cool >> compared to the boxy alternatives around that time (although I suppose my >> Penny & Giles mouse dates from about the same time, and that one's far nicer > > I think I have one of htpse Penny and Giles mice somewhere, and IIRC it > has a 20 pin IDC socket on the end which I presumed was for a BBC User > port... Yep, mine's the same... I'd originally assumed it was for an ACW (as according to folklore their optional mouse was a P+G) but I'm not sure what the standard mouse port was for an ACW with the mouse board (I've got an ACW here with the mouse board fitted, but with no wiring to any socket on the rear panel) - I should have a look at the service manual and your reverse-engineered data sometime to see if that gives any clues... > I have a very nice trackball from about the early 1980s. Not only does it > hacve the ball and 4 function buttons, but also 'arrow keys' that when > pressed generate the apporproate quadrature waveforms (as if you were > rolling the ball in that directuon), at a switch-selectable rate. Nice. All I've got here are the bog-standard Acorn/Marconi ones (the RB2) - although the Marconi one is still in its box and seems to have no hours on it, judging by the fact the spindles haven't worn like they normally do! cheers Jules From jvdg at sparcpark.net Mon Sep 24 08:51:08 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:51:08 +0200 Subject: case cracker Message-ID: Tony: >> Can someone point me to somewhere where I can get a case cracker of some >> sort? I don't think I'm going to score an official Apple one, so I'll >> settle for one that looks like the one on this page: > > I've heard the term 'case cracker' or 'Mac cracker' applied to 2 > different tools : A long TX15 Torx driver to fit the screws in the > handle of classic Macs; and a thing to fit in the groove between the > front and hack parts of the case to force them apart after you've removed > the screws. > > For the formsr, the Xcellite System 99 drivers work well. You need a > handle, X5 extension and TX15 blade (the parts should all be available > separately, you don't need to buy a set). With the extension, the tool is > long enoguh to easily remove those screwsm and the blade itself is long > enough so that the joint between it and the extension bar is in the > larger part of the handle. > > For the latter, I've always found that if you remove the battery cover > (needed to get at one of the screws), you can press on the battery and > the I/O connectors to get the case free.. My preferred method is to place the Mac face-down on a towel (to avoid scratching), and then give the sides a good whack with the palms of both hands. This will split the case right open with a very satisfying "PHLOOMPH!" type of sound. ,xtG tsooJ From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 10:07:47 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:07:47 -0400 Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <44B1E431-4682-4C21-A1AA-C9778A29BA8B@comcast.net> References: <44B1E431-4682-4C21-A1AA-C9778A29BA8B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46F7D2C3.6040505@gmail.com> Paul Heller wrote: > I just acquired an old IBM 3279 mainframe terminal. I used one of these > back in the early '80s. Anyone know of any kits or technology or > techniques to hook this up to something useful (perhaps an RS-232 or > S100 interface or PCI interface) or is this just a boat anchor (I don't > happen to have an old IBM mainframe handy)? I suspect the easiest way would be to hook a smaller terminal controller to a parallel channel adapter on an RS/6000. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 24 10:10:59 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: Old PC BBS software In-Reply-To: <001701c7fdc4$b22b7bc0$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <001701c7fdc4$b22b7bc0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070924100357.067fedd0@mail> At 04:32 AM 9/23/2007, "Lance Lyon" wrote: >Wondering if anyone on the list can help - I'm after a copy of Micro-Systems Software's BBS-PC! for the IBM PC (was released in 1987 - last version). I don't need the Amiga version.] Here's a good lead: http://www.agh2o.org/personal/microsystems.php This fellow worked there, and his bio page lists the names of the employees from that time. Google away. Maybe someone kept a copy. Programmer Steve is now at s_pagliarulo at hotmail.com , for example. - John From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 24 10:48:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <372536.46081.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> there are these spring-clamp things you can get at Home Depot or hardware stores, possibly even Walmart (kind of doubt that though). They usually have bright orange rubber slip on handles. That's the tool of choice as far as the older books go (Larry Pina,..). You could even put some clear packing tape around the ends if you're worried about marring the case. The bigger problem there is getting a long enough torx implement (T-15? Don't quote me there) to get the screws out. It could be a good idea to search for suitable phillips (+) head replacements in the event you lose that blooming thing. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 24 10:53:57 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <46F7D2C3.6040505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <64387.36567.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> is it color or green LOL. If that's the model I'm thinking of, it has a fair amount of peecee mobo stuff inside. A surprising amount in fact. I had the idea years ago (when I had one :( ) to hack it into a pc. For fun you know. Those monitors are rgb analog, and are probably pretty close to VGA in frequency I would think. I do want a color one if no one else wunts it. And you're not too far away (NJ). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 24 11:46:28 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:46:28 -0700 Subject: Modernish Honeywll-Bull computers available in North Carolina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:54 AM -0700 9/24/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: >These are totally uninteresting to me, but perhaps someone here finds them >worthy of preservation? > >They a 1980s-1990s era 68000-based beasts as far as I'm told. Not in the >best condition. Parts is probably the best description. > >Contact Jerry for details. Any Mac collectors might want to contact him to find out exactly what this is. If these are WIS workstations, they're a rather interesting Mac II Mutant, that is close to a DEC BA123 in size (not as deep). If I could afford to think about it, and had any space whatsoever I'd be inquiring about these systems. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 24 12:57:11 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:57:11 -0400 Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <64387.36567.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <64387.36567.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709241357.11422.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 24 September 2007, Chris M wrote: > is it color or green COUGH. If that's the model I'm > thinking of, it has a fair amount of peecee mobo stuff > inside. By the part number, it's a color terminal, and it's nothing like the later, smaller coax terminals... bigger, heavier, and probably built before the 8086 was released. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 24 13:47:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <200709241357.11422.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <939965.493.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > By the part number, it's a color terminal, and it's > nothing like the > later, smaller coax terminals... bigger, heavier, > and probably built > before the 8086 was released. Whoops. The 3192 or something very similar is what I am looking for. LOL LOL *COUGH COUGH* ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 14:03:04 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:03:04 -0400 Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <200709241357.11422.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <64387.36567.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <200709241357.11422.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46F809E8.2090003@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 24 September 2007, Chris M wrote: >> is it color or green COUGH. If that's the model I'm >> thinking of, it has a fair amount of peecee mobo stuff >> inside. > > By the part number, it's a color terminal, and it's nothing like the > later, smaller coax terminals... bigger, heavier, and probably built > before the 8086 was released. The 3279 (for which I'm looking for a few clean examples, if I can find them...) is so heavy that if one falls out of the back of a truck, they'd have to replace the pavement. I have some sales docs which mention desk strength requirements. The 3279 is a good bit heavier than the 3278. Peace... Sridhar From shumaker at att.net Mon Sep 24 16:34:40 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:34:40 -0700 Subject: DEC hardware in Houston Message-ID: <46F82D70.5060208@att.net> publicsurplus.com has two DEC lineprinters listed in Houston if anyone is interested.. www.publicsurplus.com item 212610 Digital LG01 item 212614 Digital LG02 back to lurking now... ss From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 24 16:56:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:56:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a Depraz mouse. In-Reply-To: <46F7B6D7.8030800@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 24, 7 02:08:39 pm Message-ID: > > Sorry for late reply... > > Mine were wired as follows: > > pin function > 1 +5V > 6 (PB0) Middle button > 8 (PB1) Left button > 10 (PB2) Right button > 14 (PB4) Y1 > 16 (PB5) Y2 > 18 (PB6) X1 > 19 GND > 20 (PB7) X2 > > Whereas the typical pinout for mice on a beeb seems to be one of: > > pin Variant A Variant B > 1 +5V +5V > 2 (CB1) X1 X1 > 4 (CB2) Y1 Y1 > 5 GND GND > 6 (PB0) X2 Left > 8 (PB1) -- Middle > 10 (PB2) Y2 Right > 12 (PB3) -- X2 > 14 (PB4) -- Y2 > 16 (PB5) Left -- > 18 (PB6) Middle -- > 20 (PB7) Right -- Putting one of the X signals and one of the Y signals the CB lines makes sense, since IIRC you can generate an interrupt from those lines. Then the mouse driver can resposd to that interrupt by seeing which axis changed state and what the state of the other signal on that axis is (to determine direaction. IIRC, there's nothing special about lines PB4 or PB5, you can't use them as inputs to counters, or the shift register, or as interrupt lines, or.. Which seems to indciate that _if_ yuor mouse was designed to plug into a Beeb user port, then the drier had to poll the user port often enough to detect changes on these lines. Hmmm... [...] > Yep, mine's the same... I'd originally assumed it was for an ACW (as according > to folklore their optional mouse was a P+G) but I'm not sure what the standard > mouse port was for an ACW with the mouse board (I've got an ACW here with the > mouse board fitted, but with no wiring to any socket on the rear panel) - I > should have a look at the service manual and your reverse-engineered data > sometime to see if that gives any clues... Unfortunately my ACW doesn't have mouse board at all, so my diagrams can't cover it. The serivce manual has not real technical info on the mouse at all, it's a boardswapper guide for that section (but has component-level repair info for the I/O processor (BBC B+ board), 32016 board and monitor. I thought the mouse interface was an Acorn design, so it's odd the schematic isn't included. I thinkl I read somewhere that the ACW mouse plugs into a DE9 connector on the back, which is then linked to the mouse interface PCB, which in turn plugs into the 1MHz bus (I think physically it's in the same side tray has the hard disk interface boards). I _asusme_ the signals on that DE9 are +5V, ground, 2 pairs of quadrature signals and 3 button signals. -tony From tsw-cc at johana.com Mon Sep 24 20:41:26 2007 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: case cracker Message-ID: <709140.69541.qm@web90402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> While other have mentioned the "shaking over a couch" method, I used a similar method by pushing on the connectors (the DB25 used for SCSI, and the Mini DIN-8's used for the serial ports. After you loosen the Torx screws (I got a long Torx driver from Fry's for this purpose), it was an easy matter to put the CRT down on a soft surface (I think I did it on my lap as I remember) and just push on the connectors while holding the case. Plop it went. Pretty easy if you ask me. I never did buy a "case cracker". Little use given my success at pushing on connectors. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From ray at arachelian.com Mon Sep 24 22:07:35 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:07:35 -0400 Subject: [lisaem] LisaEm 1.2.0 - No ROMs? No problem! Message-ID: <46F87B77.4000102@arachelian.com> LisaEm 1.2.0 is available for download right now, from the usual place: http://lisaem.sunder.net/downloads.html Many LisaEm users have complained that ROMs are too difficult to extract. The new version of LisaEm solves this by allowing you to run with out a ROM. If you wanted to try LisaEm, but couldn't because you didn't have ROMs for it, now you can! It emulates the functions of the Lisa Boot ROM as well as the Dual Parallel Card without requiring a ROM, and allows you to boot into Lisa Office System. If you've felt limited by only having a single emulated Profile hard drive because you didn't have the Dual Parallel ROM, the new version also emulates these, without requiring a ROM. All you need is Lisa Office System and LisaEm. As this is the first release of this feature, don't be surprised if you encounter bugs. Please report any unexpected behavior so that I can fix it. :-) Additionally, I've added two movies that show how to install Lisa Office System and MacWorks. (MacWorks still doesn't work properly on LisaEm however.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lisa Emulator Change History http://lisaem.sunder.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2007.09.19 - fixed romless floppy boot to always boot from floppy and not switch to Profile. 2007.09.15 - debugging ROMless boot. new bug: when trying to boot from floppy, if a profile exists and is bootable, LOS starts up from the Profile instead of the floppy. 2007.09.09 - David Cecchin's XPM icon in unix 2007.09.07 - added Save/Load PRAM to Preferences - Quit now closes any open Preference window as well 2007.08.29 - libdc42 macbinii encoded dart to dc42 conversion bugfix 2007.08.16 - added LOS error codes to ROMless error handler - fix raw screenshot crash 2007.08.13 - got both ROMless boot and ROMless dual parallel card to work 2007.08.06 - individual profile power controls + create new profile inside a new menu named profile. 2007.07.28 - replaced all exit() and EXIT() calls with messages before quitting emulator so at least we know what crashed. 2007.07.27 - ROMless works with both profile and floppy now. - Fixed a bug with configuration saving. 2007.07.26 - Tracelog checkmark correction 2007.07.25 - added Zap PRAM button in main Preferences panel 2007.07.23 - ROMLess booting - floppy works 2007.07.19 - ROMLess booting start 2007.07.12 - RESET opcode supervisor mode bug fix. 2007.07.10 - CPU core tests If you'd like to support this project, you can do so by sending me something from my Amazon wish list. (Used books and DVD's are perfectly fine with me.) The trains are for my kid. :) http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/14EOBF86ARMDT/ref=wl_web/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 24 12:25:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:25:17 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System Message-ID: <0JOV003J8V24TGQ3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Unknows S-100 System > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:43:29 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 23 Sep 2007 at 9:12, Allison wrote: > >>> What I wrote something similar I used the word "most" as I knew >there was >> some CP/M software that required z80. However from a business user >> perspective most of the deireable and likely used software like word >> preocessors, spreadsheets and databases 8080 was just fine save for >> speed and the 8085 solved that. Also the 8085 was more of a bridge >> than the ultimate application cpu. > >We ran into a few vertical apps that required Z80--and I think one of >the better word processors (maybe a late Spellbinder?) required a >Z80. BASIC dialects were different enough back then (and today) that >an application written with a specific Z80 BASIC in mind would get >you into trouble with an 8085. Never said there weren't Z80 apps, there wer lots of them some very good. It was more suprizing that the core stuff stayed with the 8080 model. It was the early adoptors that had and use dmuch of the 8080 stuff and where the z80 stuff was used they were alrady looking for 16bit cpus as they'd grown out of it. So like I said the 8085 was "enough" to run CP/M allow porting stuff to 8086 and keeping 8085 or even z80 stuff running as at best an interum thing as teh goal was to get off 8bit totally. >It wasn't enough to make us consider developing a Z80 card, since we >were marketing our own OS and applications anyway. But I'm certain >that the lack of a Z80 cost a few sales. No kidding. One thing was certain while the 8085 was ok cpu the market had decided that anything less than Z80 was not going to fly on the 8bit CPU alone. Allison From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Sep 24 14:06:34 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:06:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <46F71641.22612.3AAF6C80@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46F71641.22612.3AAF6C80@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <22397.217.225.116.221.1190660794.squirrel@217.225.116.221> Chuck Guzis said: > On 23 Sep 2007 at 9:12, Allison wrote: > >>> What I wrote something similar I used the word "most" as I knew > there was >> some CP/M software that required z80. However from a business user > We ran into a few vertical apps that required Z80--and I think one of > the better word processors (maybe a late Spellbinder?) required a > Z80. BASIC dialects were different enough back then (and today) that > an application written with a specific Z80 BASIC in mind would get > you into trouble with an 8085. Although not strictly CP/M (however easily adapable to CP/M), 12k TDL "Zapple" BASIC used even undocumented Z80 instructions, namely the ones dealing with IXH/IXL/IYH/IYL index reg bytes quite a lot. Was very surprising to me when I disassembled that interpreter long time ago, but then, the Z80 is reasonably structured to infer the actual function from the unknown op codes found. -- Holger From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 07:36:32 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 05:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: case cracker In-Reply-To: <372536.46081.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <775267.47454.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> You don't need much to get a classic Mac open. You can very easily make a long-handled torx driver suitable for taking apart Macs. You need: T-15 torx bit Bic round stic ballpoint pen Hexagonal pencil (new/unsharpened) Take the ink cartridge and the end stop out of the pen leaving a plastic tube. Firmly insert the Torx bit into one end of the pen, and the pencil into the other end. They will wedge into the pliable pen barrel plastic and stay firmly. This combination is long enough to remove all the torx screws from the recessed bits of the Mac. If you want a longer handle - cut the eraser end off the pencil and attach another pen barrel. As stupid as this sounds, it actually works. To get the case apart after all the screws are out - first make sure all the screws are out. (There is one behind the battery door on the Mac/512/Plus). I always just gently banged on the case near the seam with the heel of my hand, and used my fingers to pull the case apart there. It's not hard, and most of the time, it will come off easily - especially if the computer has been taken apart before. I never needed a case cracker. -Ian From gilbert.vandevelde at telenet.be Tue Sep 25 04:33:05 2007 From: gilbert.vandevelde at telenet.be (Gilbert Van de Velde) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:33:05 +0200 Subject: CTX Panoview 630 power supply pinout? Message-ID: <000501c7ff57$136210a0$6401a8c0@links> Hello Looking around for power supply pinout for my touchscreen device, I met your message. Please is it possible to send me that pinout (panoview 630). Thanks x 1000 ! Gilbert Van de Velde From simca at videotron.ca Tue Sep 25 06:03:57 2007 From: simca at videotron.ca (Michel Courchesne) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:03:57 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer Message-ID: <002901c7ff63$c4c5c8d0$1401000a@domain.local> To computer collector, Sir, The mini-computer I have is a B80 from Burroughs. It was bought in 1978 and I used It until 1989. In 1989 It was in working condition. The measurements in inch are: Mini-computer: W=70 D=29 H=30 ( Photo ) Disk drive cabinet: W=22 D=29 H=44 ( Photo ) Power supply: W=22 D=29 H=30 ( No Photo ) The measurements are with the wheels. I would GIVE these 3 articles, but your organisation will have to come to get it before October 5, 2007. Looking forward having news, Michel Courchesne 450-454-5631 simca at videotron.ca From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 06:32:04 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> References: <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks...I don't know if there are any Atari hackers around here; I may > be alone...but I wanted to let any interested parties know that I've located > a source for the proprietary connectors that Atari used for their "SIO" bus, > which is used to connect nearly all of their peripherals in a daisy-chain > configuration. > > http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?AZndUfrS;AT13F;6 Not only that, but they have the rarer-than-hens-teeth DB23 connectors (as used by NeXT Station sound boxes) and DB19 connectors (later Apple 2 external flopppy drives). Thanks for the tip! Steve -- From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Sep 25 09:23:53 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:23:53 -0400 Subject: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: References: <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Steven Hirsch may have mentioned these words: >On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Hey folks...I don't know if there are any Atari hackers around here; I >> may be alone...but I wanted to let any interested parties know that I've >> located a source for the proprietary connectors that Atari used for >> their "SIO" bus, which is used to connect nearly all of their >> peripherals in a daisy-chain configuration. >> >> http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?AZndUfrS;AT13F;6 > >Not only that, but they have the rarer-than-hens-teeth DB23 connectors (as >used by NeXT Station sound boxes) and DB19 connectors (later Apple 2 >external flopppy drives). Weren't the 19-pin D-sub connectors also used on the Atari Falcon for their video? And what "size letters" would they have? Remember: DA-15 DB-25 DE-9, and also HDE-15 (PC-VGA) ... That I remember for sure... and here's the "I think": DC-37 (old floppy drive connector) So would the 19-pin be DF-19 and the 23-pin be DG-23? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 25 10:38:10 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: <002901c7ff63$c4c5c8d0$1401000a@domain.local> References: <002901c7ff63$c4c5c8d0$1401000a@domain.local> Message-ID: <200709251542.LAA09446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The mini-computer I have is a B80 from Burroughs. > [...] > 450-454-5631 This number is in St-Remi, Qu?bec, according to the NPA-NXX tables I have. St-Remi is a small community some 20-30 km south of Montreal Island. (No, unfortunately I can't go fetch or look at; I don't drive, and that's a bit far for a bike trip.) Someone who does drive from near the New York / Qu?bec border, or the northwest corner of Vermont, should be able to day-trip it easily. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mail at g-lenerz.de Tue Sep 25 10:50:50 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:50:50 +0200 Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: References: <46F486EE.1010409@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <143943273.20070925175050@g-lenerz.de> Saturday, September 22, 2007, 5:37:21 PM, you wrote: >> My experience has been the opposite, actually. Every single server move >> I've done where we opted to leave things in the rack has had something >> shake loose or, rarely, outright break. I've had to replace motherboard >> because some trace got severed somewhere. So my personal opinion is to >> derack the entire thing if you can. > > Should I attempt this, could you give me an idea of what is involved? If you're really trying to move it without enough people to help or a decent truck with a lift I'd also try to remove as much weight as is possible. Try removing front/back/side doors, powersupplies and harddisks. I'd also take out the boards of the system and move them in a separate box (well secured of course). Getting the system back together again shouldn't be too difficult, it's actually pretty well documented. Other good news is that it has decent wheels of it's own. So as long as you have a flat surface you can just roll it around. > Do the cardcage modules come out from the rack with anything resembling > "ease"? I don't think so. As far as I recall it is not built like a simple 19" frame with a cardcage bolted into it. Even if it were, the main system module would probably be way too heavy. It should include cardcage #1 and #2 (back to back, separated by a midplane) which both can take "9U VME sized cards". Maybe the drive assembly is also part of it as well as the upper end containing the top blowers. It's been a while since I've seen an Onyx rack. Back then it was 1-way disassembly anyway, so I didn't make mental notes of how the rack itself could be moved. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 10:57:54 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: <200709251542.LAA09446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <550025.95103.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- der Mouse wrote: > This number is in St-Remi, Qu?bec, according to the > NPA-NXX tables I > have. St-Remi is a small community some 20-30 km > south of Montreal > Island. (No, unfortunately I can't go fetch or look > at; I don't drive, > and that's a bit far for a bike trip.) > > Someone who does drive from near the New York / > Qu?bec border, or the > northwest corner of Vermont, should be able to > day-trip it easily. I am about 200 miles away. I looked up the area code too, and I emailed her - she sent me some pictures of the machine. It's definitely an interesting beast. I have no experiance with Burroughs machines, but still - I'm really tempted. It has to be gone by Oct. 5 - but I can probably make it up there this weekend. I did some figureing based on the dimensions - I should even be able to fit it in the van with some creative positioning. If anyone can think of a reason why I shouldn't go save this, let me know - otherwise I'll go for it. No manuals with it, but it looks like the docs are on Bitsavers even. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 25 11:18:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:18:52 -0600 Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:50:50 +0200. <143943273.20070925175050@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: Think carefully about deracking the Onyx 10K. It has special compression connectors that are very susceptible to small amounts of dirt -- in particular you should never, ever touch the connector. I wouldn't want to derack all of that without having had experience doing it. When we moved the Onyx2 Reality Monster from the same location, we did temporarily derack the topmost card cage in one of the 4 cabinets. Once the cabinet was back on the truck, we put the cards back in the rack. The cards themselves are secured into the rack with screws, so I really don't see them coming loose from road vibration. The Onyx is a VME bus based cabinet and the cards are simple edge connectors IIRC. We moved 2 of the Onyx type refridgerator sized cabinets, 4 of the Onyx2 type 6' cabinets, and a deskside cabinet (smaller sized VME based box) in a single move in a rented panel truck. None of the machines show any signs that anything vibrated loose during the trip, although none of them have been thoroughly inspected or powered up since delivery, but there is no obvious indication of anything having come loose. All cabinets were cargo strapped against the interior walls of the panel truck. The trip was 1300 miles on interstate one way, so I'd say if anything was going to come loose from road vibration, it would have done it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 25 11:30:54 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:30:54 -0700 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) Message-ID: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> > It's definitely an interesting beast. I > have no experiance with Burroughs machines, but still > I'm really tempted. I would be a good thing to save. I think RSC/RI has one as well (W.D. would know for sure) Also, no software has been archived for this machine, so any surviving copies would be a good thing. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 25 11:41:53 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:41:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: <00b601c7ff8d$5093bec0$1401000a@domain.local> References: <002901c7ff63$c4c5c8d0$1401000a@domain.local> <200709251544.LAA09462@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00b601c7ff8d$5093bec0$1401000a@domain.local> Message-ID: <200709251643.MAA09900@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> About that B80, in case anyone is interested, I wrote to the poster saying >>> 450-454-5631 >> This number is in St-Remi, according to the NPA-NXX tables I have. >> Is that where the B80 is? and got a response saying > You have the right town. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 11:48:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:48:52 -0700 Subject: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com> References: <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com>, , <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46F8D984.31603.41922C62@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Sep 2007 at 10:23, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Weren't the 19-pin D-sub connectors also used on the Atari Falcon for their > video? And what "size letters" would they have? Remember: Don't know about that, but definitely for the ST's ACSI connector. And uncommon DIN connectors for video and floppy. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Sep 25 12:21:07 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:21:07 -0400 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <46F8D984.31603.41922C62@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com> <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925130402.04e51db8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 25 Sep 2007 at 10:23, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > Weren't the 19-pin D-sub connectors also used on the Atari Falcon for > their > > video? And what "size letters" would they have? Remember: > >Don't know about that, but definitely for the ST's ACSI connector. >And uncommon DIN connectors for video and floppy. My only ST box (currently) is the 1040STF, so it has an internal floppy drive. Therefore, I've never paid attention to that connector. Never had a HD either... ;-) ... But the video connector is a 13-pin DIN which can be had from Mouser now, and might be stocked at Digi-Key. I have a few males & females of that connector ready & willing (whenever I get a round tuit, which won't be for a little while at least, as it's not high priority for me[1]) to design a converter cable to go from the Atari SC1224 monitor to a Tandy CoCo3 RGB port. AFAIK, they're compatible except the connectors, so it's just matching pins. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] The reason the cable's not a high priority is I have both Roy Justus's's's's ;-) CoCo3->VGA adapter, and Chris Hawks's's's CoCo3->SVideo adapter... so I can use both an LCD monitor & my 27" Sony Wega tele as monitors now. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From stevew at ka6s.com Tue Sep 25 12:31:38 2007 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steve Wilson) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:31:38 -0700 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: Old mini computer (B80) Message-ID: <200709251031.39343.stevew@ka6s.com> Al Kosow Wrote: >I would be a good thing to save. I think RSC/RI has one as well >(W.D. would know for sure) > >Also, no software has been archived for this machine, so any >surviving copies would be a good thing. If I recall correctly - this machine will run the Burroughs CMS software. This OS worked from the B80 upto the B1800 systems. Steve Wilson From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 12:45:24 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:45:24 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I would be a good thing to save. I think RSC/RI has one as well > (W.D. would know for sure) RICM (the "other" RCS) had one when i was last there, about two years ago. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 12:47:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:47:32 -0700 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925130402.04e51db8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com>, <46F8D984.31603.41922C62@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070925130402.04e51db8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46F8E744.19769.41C7E209@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Sep 2007 at 13:21, Roger Merchberger wrote: > ... But the video connector is a 13-pin DIN which can be had from Mouser > now, and might be stocked at Digi-Key. When I started fooling with the ST, the video connectors were near- unobtainium. I made my own using a bit of 0.100" perfboard, some D- connector crimp pins and some epoxy potting compound. The connector worked until the day I sold the box, almost 20 years later. JDR did have the ACSI connector back then. My hard disk was an OMTI SCSI-to-RLL converter board with another homebrew board piggybacked on to it to accommodate signal differences between SCSI and ACSI. It worked well. I still have my driver code somewhere--as well as a PCB design program for the ST. Cheers, Chuck From mail at g-lenerz.de Tue Sep 25 12:54:22 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:54:22 +0200 Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:50:50 +0200. <143943273.20070925175050@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <896657419.20070925195422@g-lenerz.de> Tuesday, September 25, 2007, 6:18:52 PM, you wrote: > Think carefully about deracking the Onyx 10K. It has special > compression connectors that are very susceptible to small amounts of > dirt -- in particular you should never, ever touch the connector. I > wouldn't want to derack all of that without having had experience > doing it. In case of the Onyx2 you are right, the boards containing compression connectors (CPU and GE) need to be handled with special care. On the other hand I'd expect an Onyx2 to be easier to move as the system modules should come out of the rack much easier (AFAIK they aren't much different from the core of a deskside), but maybe I'm mistaken. > When we moved the Onyx2 Reality Monster from the same location, we did > temporarily derack the topmost card cage in one of the 4 cabinets. > Once the cabinet was back on the truck, we put the cards back in the > rack. The cards themselves are secured into the rack with screws, so > I really don't see them coming loose from road vibration. Indeed on the Onyx2 cards coming loose shouldn't be an issue. > The Onyx is a VME bus based cabinet and the cards are simple edge > connectors IIRC. Back to the Onyx the OP will get. They are "normal" card edge connectors, but not VME although the size matches 9U: http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/pictures/onyx.php#boards There are also VME slots included for expansion though. > The trip was 1300 miles on interstate one way, so I'd say if anything > was going to come loose from road vibration, it would have done it. Same here, no ill effects of moving hardware in either state: - disassembled and carefully packed away - moved as a whole But that all went well on our trips doesn't mean it goes well on all roadtrips, I guess. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 25 13:17:43 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:17:43 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200709251417.43888.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 23 September 2007 09:12, Allison wrote: > >Subject: Re: Unknows S-100 System > > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:44:57 -0400 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > >On Saturday 22 September 2007 19:35, Barry Watzman wrote: > >> All commercial software used 8080 instructions, > > > >Well, no. Two that I know of that did require a z80 were Turbo Pascal > > and Mix C. > > > >-- > > What I wrote something similar I used the word "most" as I knew there was > some CP/M software that required z80. However from a business user > perspective most of the deireable and likely used software like word > preocessors, spreadsheets and databases 8080 was just fine save for > speed and the 8085 solved that. Also the 8085 was more of a bridge > than the ultimate application cpu. Yup, but the word used there was "all". :-) And then there was software that was good enough to test what it had, and go from there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 13:21:14 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > > It's definitely an interesting beast. I > > have no experiance with Burroughs machines, but > still > > I'm really tempted. > > I would be a good thing to save. I think RSC/RI has > one as well > (W.D. would know for sure) > > Also, no software has been archived for this > machine, so any > surviving copies would be a good thing. Well, seeming as though nobody could talk me out of it, I guess I'll be driving out there this weekend to pick it up . She says that there are a couple of disk packs with it. From the picture it kinda looks like a Diablo style. Archiving them would be a fun exercise. Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it to bring this across the border? I've never picked up a computer from Canada. Is customs going to raise a stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 25 13:35:22 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:35:22 -0600 Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:54:22 +0200. <896657419.20070925195422@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: In article <896657419.20070925195422 at g-lenerz.de>, Gerhard Lenerz writes: > But that all went well on our trips doesn't mean it goes well on all > roadtrips, I guess. Agreed; there is no guarantee, even if you use a commercial shipping agent. Personally I feel better about moving things myself and generally more nervous when I hand things over to a shipping agent. With myself doing the packing, I know exactly what kind of quality attention to detail I'm getting, but with a commercial agent I'm at their mercy and by the time it arrives damaged, its too late to do anything about it. Its not like insurance is any good here, because you can't get these things replaced or repaired. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mail at g-lenerz.de Tue Sep 25 14:30:12 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:30:12 +0200 Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:54:22 +0200. <896657419.20070925195422@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <154502794.20070925213012@g-lenerz.de> Tuesday, September 25, 2007, 8:35:22 PM, Richard wrote: > Its not like insurance is any good here, because you can't get these > things replaced or repaired. That is quite another sad topic. Personally I have my collection distributed in my rented flat, the basement storage area associated with the flat, my parents basement and a self-storage compartment. None of this is covered by any insurance, personally I cannot see how any insurance could recover the loss from a drowned Crimson/RE for example. Of course the cash would make my life happier, but (a) the insurance would probably cost an arm and a leg and (b) a decent collectible would be lost anyway... I presume there is no real solution for securing all the stuff we gather. Possibly the solution I've come up with -just because of space restrictions- is not a bad one. I've got my stuff somewhat distributed between different houses and also different towns. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 14:37:55 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:37:55 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Well, seeming as though nobody could talk me out of > it, I guess I'll be driving out there this weekend to > pick it up . She says that there are a couple of > disk packs with it. From the picture it kinda looks > like a Diablo style. Archiving them would be a fun > exercise. And if you get sick of it after a while, I would take it. I need to get you that Eagle, now that it is closer to the shop door. Sorry, I am off to Chicago this weekend... > Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it > to bring this across the border? I've never picked up > a computer from Canada. Is customs going to raise a > stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? Probably not. Puzzled looks, probably. One time I started to get questions about what the guard should buy, PeeCee or Mac. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 25 14:42:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:42:14 -0600 Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:30:12 +0200. <154502794.20070925213012@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: I think for valuation purposes you can always put a price on it for property insurance. That would at least get you some economic restitution in case of disaster, but its not like you can just go out and buy a replacement item for these things. Its similar to having a piece of art. There's one. You can't get a replacement. At best you could purchase a reproduction made from photographs of the original, and it would only be a replica worth a fraction of the original's value. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 14:49:32 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:49:32 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46F9664C.1040904@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it >> to bring this across the border? I've never picked up >> a computer from Canada. Is customs going to raise a >> stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? > > Probably not. Puzzled looks, probably. One time I started to get > questions about what the guard should buy, PeeCee or Mac. There are exceptions to that rule, though. Be careful taking Cray hardware across the border, as it is very recognizable. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 14:53:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:53:36 -0700 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <200709251417.43888.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, <200709251417.43888.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46F904D0.23688.423B5007@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Sep 2007 at 14:17, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > And then there was software that was good enough to test what it had, and go > from there... Not having my regular development system Z80-equipped was one of the things that kept me external to the ZCPR community. It's only within the last decade or so that I've gone back and looked at what I missed. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 15:01:14 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: <154502794.20070925213012@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <550203.97690.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > None of this is covered by any insurance, personally > I cannot see how > any insurance could recover the loss from a drowned > Crimson/RE for > example. Of course the cash would make my life > happier, but (a) the > insurance would probably cost an arm and a leg and > (b) a decent > collectible would be lost anyway... Unfortunately, I don't believe that there is any way of really insuring a computer collection. And even if you did manage to buy insurance for your collection, getting them to pay up if something were to happen would be next to impossible. I recall a sad story posted here a couple years ago, about a collector whose house was hit by a car. Really. Someone (some drunk someone, IIRC) drove a car into the side of the house. Sizeable damage was done to the house, and a computer (a DEC PDP "straight" 8, I think) was destroyed in the process. I think the computer was covered by his insurance. But I don't know what the eventual outcome of it was, but I can't imagine that getting payment would have been easy. Or have helped. Because where are you ever going to replace something like that? Something like repairs to a house are easy to put a dollar value on. Materials and labor. Even things like vintage cars and antique furniture have a somewhat established pricing system. But computers? I mean, I know that there is a classic computer price guide (microcomputers only, BTW), but it's hardly the definitive word on the matter. Same with eBay price histories. Is there even a way to have a computer collection insured? -Ian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Sep 25 14:54:16 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:54:16 +0100 Subject: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2? In-Reply-To: <896657419.20070925195422@g-lenerz.de> References: Your message of Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:50:50 +0200. <143943273.20070925175050@g-lenerz.de> <896657419.20070925195422@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <46F96768.10502@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/09/2007 18:54, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Tuesday, September 25, 2007, 6:18:52 PM, you wrote: > >> Think carefully about deracking the Onyx 10K. It has special >> compression connectors that are very susceptible to small amounts of >> dirt > In case of the Onyx2 you are right, the boards containing compression > connectors (CPU and GE) need to be handled with special care. On the > other hand I'd expect an Onyx2 to be easier to move as the system > modules should come out of the rack much easier (AFAIK they aren't > much different from the core of a deskside), but maybe I'm mistaken. Indeed -- the compression connectors are on the individual CPU and GE cards (and on I/O cards, but a different size), but the modules can be easily removed from the racks. I've moved my rackmount Origin2000 several times, and each time I've found it best to remove the power supply from each module, because that's the heaviest part, and easy to remove. The modules used in a rackmount O2K/Onyx2 are identical to the one used in a deskside. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Sep 25 15:11:43 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <46F904D0.23688.423B5007@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, <200709251417.43888.rtellason@verizon.net> <46F904D0.23688.423B5007@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:53:36 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Unknows S-100 System > > On 25 Sep 2007 at 14:17, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> And then there was software that was good enough to test what it had, and go >> from there... > > Not having my regular development system Z80-equipped was one of the > things that kept me external to the ZCPR community. It's only within > the last decade or so that I've gone back and looked at what I > missed. > > Cheers, > Chuck > ZCPR alone was a good reason to use the Z80, it made CPM tolerable. Peter Wallace From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Sep 25 15:14:50 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <261785.94507.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > > It's definitely an interesting beast. I > > have no experiance with Burroughs machines, but > still > > I'm really tempted. > > I would be a good thing to save. I think RSC/RI has > one as well > (W.D. would know for sure) > > Also, no software has been archived for this > machine, so any > surviving copies would be a good thing. My father has a B80 in storage in Jacksonville, FL. It was taken out of service in the mid-to-late 80's. The CE left the maintenance prints onsite. My father would like to get rid of the machine, and it is free for the taking. There is quite a bit of software, though not a lot in the way of system software, as the company ran a turnkey application package on it. I'm also not sure of the condition of the disks, as the storage conditions are not optimal. The machine itself looked to be in pretty good shape when I last took a look at it about a year and a half ago. --Bill From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Sep 25 15:16:53 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:16:53 -0700 Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: <550203.97690.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <550203.97690.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46F96CB5.3080300@shiresoft.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Is there even a way to have a computer collection > insured? > Yes there is. Insurance Co.'s will insure *anything* for a price. You just have to want to pay it. :-) I had to get insurance for my shop (landlord required it). I also have content insurance. They came by and did an inspection and photographed everything and took an inventory (cursory). The basic idea is that since it's commercial space, if something does happen, everything will be totaled and they'll just write a (big) check. It certainly isn't the most desirable outcome, but it's at least something. -- TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 25 15:19:25 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <46F9664C.1040904@gmail.com> References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46F9664C.1040904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709252022.QAA11112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it to bring this >>> across the border? I've never picked up a computer from Canada. >>> Is customs going to raise a stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? >> Probably not. Puzzled looks, probably. One time I started to get >> questions about what the guard should buy, PeeCee or Mac. My only evidence is going in the other direction and is anecdotal. A friend and I drove down to New England and picked up some NeXT stuff. At the entry into Canada the customs guy got sticky until we found a fab date on one of the things; it was old enough he basically just waved us through. The only other incident was bringing some laptops back from my trip to Norway; the customs guy didn't seem to care beyond hearing that the University was throwing them out because they were too old, and a very rough off-the-cuff valuation. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Sep 25 15:23:03 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:23:03 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925162259.05230328@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Mr Ian Primus may have mentioned these words: >Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it >to bring this across the border? I've never picked up >a computer from Canada. Is customs going to raise a >stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? Whatever you do, *don't* say *collectible*!!! "Museum piece" would be another bad term to use. Customs will hear these terms and think $$$. Tell the customs agent that you have a giveaway (and seriously hint that fact being equatable to "worthless" if asked) hardware rack, obsolete wouldn't be a bad term to use... Keep responses short, sweet & to the point. Don't be a smartass[1]. Don't give 'em your life story, as they're busy folk and don't need to hear it. *Especially* don't "hum and haw" when asked a question, the Customs agent will smell fear and pull you over to inspect your cargo, asking more questions than you'd prefer. Go over your story in your head several times, and try to be prepared for any question they might ask, like "Why'd you drive to BFE to get this thing?" or "What's this thing actually worth?" A good story to use is: Part A) "I used one in high school/college but no-one uses these anymore... " and choose either Part B: Part B1) "... and this person was going to throw it away anyway, so I saved it from the dumpster." or Part B2) "... and this person said it didn't work anymore and I wanted the challenge to try to fix it." and if asked to elaborate, try: "it's a hobby just like restoring Model 'T' cars, but for geeks." Something to that effect anyway should work fairly well. Also, if the units "country of origin" was the USA, there shouldn't be any duty for it to return to the USA, no matter how much it's worth, so if there's a tag on the machine or a manual with it that states "Made in the USA" then they shouldn't give you any hassle. A good piece of advice to keep in mind WRT Customs: You are *guilty* until proven innocent. If you're thinking of making a weekend out of it, get a gas receipt, buy a candy bar, etc. once you get into Canada, because if you're looking to hit the Duty Free on the way back, if you can't *prove* you were in Canada as long as you say, you haven't. Period. I worked at a Duty Free for 3 years or so when I was a young lad, and learned quite well the powers (which are considerable) of US Customs. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] It only takes once to get the "wrong officer" (read: Didn't get any the nite before) to make your life hell crossing the border. 3 years ago going to VCF East (the one in Bahston), I crossed from Port Huron, MI to Sarnia, Ont.... made the trip quite a bit shorter for me. No worries... until on the way back. The guy asked me for my passport (which wasn't necessary at the time) and then for my birth certificate (also not necessary, not to mention mine had been destroyed and I'd hadn't gotten it replaced yet at the time) so the guy accused me of a) being a terrorist, and b) never having crossed the border before. I broke my own rules, as I a) rather forcefully reminded him that I was a veteran, b) I grew up on a border town and had prolly crossed into Canada more (by the time I was 20) than he ever had, and c) I knew the crossing rules better than he did. [2] Needless to say, my civil rights were violated that day because of my outburst... but remember, you're not technically in the US until *after* customs, so they can get away with it. Most don't abuse the power, but a few can & do... [2] I (barely) stopped short of both vulgarity and questioning his parentage... thank goodness! -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Sep 25 15:36:48 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:36:48 -0400 Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: <550203.97690.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <154502794.20070925213012@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925162758.05378ba0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Mr Ian Primus may have mentioned these words: >Is there even a way to have a computer collection >insured? Sure... mine is. It's thru State Farm and is a rider on my homeowners insurance. It currently costs me about $90/year (but the inventory's a bit old so if things went up in smoke, a few of the computers wouldn't be paid for) but IIRC it's $0 deductible, and covers replacement costs on all of my main computer & electronic stuff, my main computers, TV, digital camera, etc. I got it right after my wife dropped my (then) $700 Epson digital camera, which cost over $300 to repair. About a year later, it got taken out by a lightning storm with my main computer, 2 weeks later I had a check in hand, and 2 weeks after that, I had a new (and at the time, schweet) 1Ghz P3 system & a Nikon Coolpix 5000. The insurance paid for itself for many years to come... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 25 15:36:47 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:36:47 -0400 Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709251636.47276.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 25 September 2007, Richard wrote: > Its similar to having a piece of art. There's one. You can't get a > replacement. At best you could purchase a reproduction made from > photographs of the original, and it would only be a replica worth a > fraction of the original's value. Yeah, but computers were generally mass-produced (with the exception of really early machines, prototypes, etc), and you generally CAN find another of the same machine given enough money and some research. You can't just go and replace an original painting the same way. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Sep 25 15:06:48 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:06:48 -0700 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46F96A58.6090805@msm.umr.edu> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > >Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it >to bring this across the border? I've never picked up >a computer from Canada. Is customs going to raise a >stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? > >-Ian > > If you are bringing in something made in the USA then locate the "Made in USA" badges and show them to any interested customs agents. There are no duties on US made goods. If the unit was not primarily assembled in the US then show them a reciept showing how much you paid for it, and the age, and I doubt there would be any duty on it. Al, do you recall how much John B had to do to get the machines he went and retrieved for you from Nova Scotia? I don't think there was any issue, but he may have crossed and just lucked out. Jim From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Tue Sep 25 16:35:35 2007 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael Green) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:35:35 -0700 Subject: VAXSERVER 3600 IN SEATTLE WA Message-ID: I've got an old VAXSERVER 3600 taking up space in my house. I really don't know anything about it but was told it was functional from the guy I picked it up from about a year ago. I'm looking for the highest bid from someone that can pickup in the Seattle, WA area. From mail at g-lenerz.de Tue Sep 25 16:44:03 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:44:03 +0200 Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: <550203.97690.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <154502794.20070925213012@g-lenerz.de> <550203.97690.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <982731480.20070925234403@g-lenerz.de> Tuesday, September 25, 2007, 10:01:14 PM, you wrote: > Unfortunately, I don't believe that there is any way > of really insuring a computer collection. And even if > you did manage to buy insurance for your collection, > getting them to pay up if something were to happen > would be next to impossible. I don't know about the other people around here but getting "time value" for a precious piece of the collection made unuseable by theft or "bad weather" just can't be paid for by any reasonable insured amound of $$$. > I recall a sad story posted here a couple years ago, > about a collector whose house was hit by a car. > Really. Someone (some drunk someone, IIRC) drove a car > into the side of the house. Sizeable damage was done > to the house, and a computer (a DEC PDP "straight" 8, > I think) was destroyed in the process. I think the > computer was covered by his insurance. But I don't > know what the eventual outcome of it was, but I can't > imagine that getting payment would have been easy. Or > have helped. Actually that should have been a problem of the guy (or that guys insurance), at least for any commodity goods. > Because where are you ever going to replace something like that? There is my problem. Cash can help recover, but some things are lost forever once they are lost. What happens to the IRIS 3130 or the Profesional Iris if my parents basement does drown? What happens if my current living area is going down? There is an Onyx2, a *loaded* Onyx/RE2 w/Sirius, a Crimson/RE, Indigo 2 in all flavours (R10K, R8K, R4400, R4600) here... > Something like repairs to a house are easy to put a > dollar value on. Materials and labor. Even things like > vintage cars and antique furniture have a somewhat > established pricing system. But computers? There is a sad lack of possibilities of recovering from a damage... compared to a broken old car (which is even simpler to repair once you know the right guys). > Is there even a way to have a computer collection > insured? For BIG CASH probably yes. ANYTHING can be insured, but there is the part where you have to think about *real* risks, the money the $company asks for and will spend and what ever good the cash-back will do in case something rare breaks. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 25 16:55:15 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: <982731480.20070925234403@g-lenerz.de> References: <154502794.20070925213012@g-lenerz.de> <550203.97690.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <982731480.20070925234403@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > For BIG CASH probably yes. ANYTHING can be insured, but there is the > part where you have to think about *real* risks, the money the > $company asks for and will spend and what ever good the cash-back will > do in case something rare breaks. Consider also that the insurance company may want to have someone repair a damaged computer. Something like that happened to a friend of mine who was expecting an Atari ABAQ[1] to arrive by UPS. The package was lost, then eventually found impaled by a forklift. UPS wanted to send it to be repaired. [1] One of only ten or so in existance, IIRC. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 25 17:07:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:07:56 +0100 Subject: US imports (was: Re: Old mini computer (B80)) In-Reply-To: <46F96A58.6090805@msm.umr.edu> References: <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46F96A58.6090805@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46F986BC.2060605@yahoo.co.uk> jim s wrote: > If you are bringing in something made in the USA then locate the "Made > in USA" badges and show them to any interested customs agents. There > are no duties on US made goods. If the unit was not primarily assembled > in the US then show them a reciept showing how much you paid for it, and > the age, and I doubt there would be any duty on it. Hmm, I can see I'm going to have fun if I try to bring 10-15 UK machines in (which are all 80s or older, but receipts? - haha!) Unless of course it's different because it's stuff I've owned for years (just not kept in the US) rather than items I've just acquired. Maybe "personal belongings" is a different case... I need to give a few shipping companies a prod I suppose and see what their experiences are. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 25 17:09:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:09:57 -0600 Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:44:03 +0200. <982731480.20070925234403@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: In article <982731480.20070925234403 at g-lenerz.de>, Gerhard Lenerz writes: > There is my problem. Cash can help recover, but some things are lost > forever once they are lost. > > What happens to the IRIS 3130 or the Profesional Iris if my parents > basement does drown? If its just water and the equipment isn't plugged in, then I think it would be repairable. > What happens if my current living area is going > down? There is an Onyx2, a *loaded* Onyx/RE2 w/Sirius, a Crimson/RE, > Indigo 2 in all flavours (R10K, R8K, R4400, R4600) here... Going down as in earthquake? Then I think there's not much you can do about it. > For BIG CASH probably yes. ANYTHING can be insured, but there is the > part where you have to think about *real* risks, the money the > $company asks for and will spend and what ever good the cash-back will > do in case something rare breaks. I think it could be reasonable; after all, what's the risk: earthquake, fire, flood, storm. The usual things that damage property in a household. It also depends on the goals of your insurance: are you trying to get some compensation or are you trying to insure it for replacement value? The replacement value part will be difficult to justify I suspect, as there are no reputable independent valuations of this stuff. (And don't even mention that collectible microcomputers book; those prices are ridiculously low compared to what you have to pay for real to people who are selling this stuff. Those prices listed in that book are what you should expect to see at a garage sale from someone who doesn't know anything about the hobby.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 25 17:16:34 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:16:34 -0400 Subject: Insurance (was: Does anyone have a SGI Onyx 10000 RealityEngine2?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709251816.34473.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 25 September 2007, Richard wrote: > It also depends on the goals of your > insurance: are you trying to get some compensation or are you trying > to insure it for replacement value? The replacement value part will > be difficult to justify I suspect, as there are no reputable > independent valuations of this stuff. A replacement value should be easy to figure out - just find some used equipment dealer who wants big $$$ but has the same thing you do for sale. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 25 18:00:08 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: decent used laptops Message-ID: A professor has asked me where one can find decent used laptops. That is, he needs something close enough to the bleeding edge where he can run current applications, but far enough away that he won't have to pay much. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 25 18:08:14 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:08:14 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <46F9664C.1040904@gmail.com> References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> <46F9664C.1040904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709251908.14599.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 25 September 2007 15:49, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > >> Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it > >> to bring this across the border? I've never picked up > >> a computer from Canada. Is customs going to raise a > >> stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? > > > > Probably not. Puzzled looks, probably. One time I started to get > > questions about what the guard should buy, PeeCee or Mac. > > There are exceptions to that rule, though. Be careful taking Cray > hardware across the border, as it is very recognizable. > > Peace... Sridhar Is either direction more likely to be a problem than the other? What if I just said "It's electronics for scrap..."? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 25 18:16:47 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <200709251908.14599.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> <46F9664C.1040904@gmail.com> <200709251908.14599.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > What if I just said "It's electronics for scrap..."? I'd avoid that. It might prompt a sloppy assumption of how much gold it contains. I always tell people who ask why I bother with this stuff that it's like screwing around with a Model T. That never fails to satisfy the curious. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 25 18:15:41 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:15:41 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System In-Reply-To: <46F904D0.23688.423B5007@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JOT00ACDOOJP6O9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200709251417.43888.rtellason@verizon.net> <46F904D0.23688.423B5007@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709251915.41217.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 25 September 2007 15:53, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Sep 2007 at 14:17, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > And then there was software that was good enough to test what it had, > > and go from there... > > Not having my regular development system Z80-equipped was one of the > things that kept me external to the ZCPR community. It's only within > the last decade or so that I've gone back and looked at what I > missed. I never did get into all that stuff while it was going on either, and a lot of the stuff that was out there wasn't always applicable to me since my main CP/M box was an Osborne Executive, which ran CP/M 3, rather than 2.2, and that meant that some of the stuff that really tried to hack at things just flat-out wouldn't work. I eventually got a HD box to hook up to that system, although the 34MB Tulin drive in it at the time had bearings that were so bad you didn't want to be in the room with it when it was on. I stuck a ST225 in there and managed somehow to hack the code enough to make that work, more or less. I never did find out where I had to do anything with regard to write precomp, which I'm guessing why I had lots and lots of trouble accessing the last few MB of the drive, though with as small as most software was in those days, I didn't really feel the pinch until I started collecting lots of _data_ rather than software. Which I still do, to a large extent. I'd love to have double-sided drives in the Exec, but never did get anywhere with that. The few bits I had info on didn't look like they'd work with the HD setup -- both involved replacing the CPM3.SYS file, so I never got there. It'd also be neat if there were some way to have the system ROM (EPROM actually) be able to specify a boot from the HD, but you had to boot a floppy to get there. I had lots of fun with it, though. Stuffed all sorts of utilities into a 600K+ COMMAND.LBR which the system would search when it couldn't find stuff otherwise, never a noticeable delay there. Patched the crap out of my copy of Wordstar, etc. ZCPR looked to have some pretty nfity ideas. I don't completely agree with how they went about implementing all of them, though, and maybe someday I'll hack something together that uses their ideas and does it the way I want it to. We'll see. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 25 18:18:52 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:18:52 -0400 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709251918.52134.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 25 September 2007, David Griffith wrote: > A professor > that he won't have to pay much. I'm pretty familiar with that problem. :) Unfortunately, laptops hold their value pretty well. His best bet (being a professor of some sort) is to try and get some company to donate one to him/his university department. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 25 18:27:18 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:27:18 -0400 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709251927.19021.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 25 September 2007 19:00, David Griffith wrote: > A professor has asked me where one can find decent used laptops. That is, > he needs something close enough to the bleeding edge where he can run > current applications, but far enough away that he won't have to pay much. I've been kinda wondering that myself... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 18:29:10 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:29:10 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <200709251908.14599.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> <46F9664C.1040904@gmail.com> <200709251908.14599.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > What if I just said "It's electronics for scrap..."? How much do you think it is worth? Might not be a good idea... -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 25 18:34:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:34:57 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> <200709251908.14599.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709251934.57837.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 25 September 2007 19:16, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > What if I just said "It's electronics for scrap..."? > > I'd avoid that. It might prompt a sloppy assumption of how much gold it > contains. I always tell people who ask why I bother with this stuff that > it's like screwing around with a Model T. That never fails to satisfy the > curious. Probably a good way to deal with it, yeah. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 25 18:59:20 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:59:20 -0700 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:00 PM -0700 9/25/07, David Griffith wrote: >A professor has asked me where one can find decent used laptops. That is, >he needs something close enough to the bleeding edge where he can run >current applications, but far enough away that he won't have to pay much. How close to bleeding edge would that be? I use an IBM T41p for work, and it while it is fast enough, RAM is starting to become an issue (not worth trying to upgrade as the laptop should soon be replaced), and it is flaky (mainly because my original died, and was replaced with one of the same model that was someones old trashed garbage). Looking at the local place that sells used laptops I can see that for what they want for a model this old, you'd almost be better off buying a new laptop once you factor in wear and tear. Has he considered looking for laptops being clearanced out? Hmmm, that could be of interest to me as well. Not sure where you would look. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 25 19:06:19 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:00 PM -0700 9/25/07, David Griffith wrote: > >A professor has asked me where one can find decent used laptops. That is, > >he needs something close enough to the bleeding edge where he can run > >current applications, but far enough away that he won't have to pay much. > > How close to bleeding edge would that be? I use an IBM T41p for > work, and it while it is fast enough, RAM is starting to become an > issue (not worth trying to upgrade as the laptop should soon be > replaced), and it is flaky (mainly because my original died, and was > replaced with one of the same model that was someones old trashed > garbage). A T41[p] is about close enough. The trick now is to find one without flakiness. > Looking at the local place that sells used laptops I can see that for > what they want for a model this old, you'd almost be better off > buying a new laptop once you factor in wear and tear. Just out of morbid curiosity, how much? > Has he considered looking for laptops being clearanced out? Hmmm, > that could be of interest to me as well. Not sure where you would > look. I would have directed him to Computer Renaisance, but corporate decided to close it. Oh well. It was a good source of older but still good stuff. I know of some local turnkey suppliers that might have turn-ins. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Sep 25 19:59:50 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:59:50 -0400 Subject: Olivetti TES 501 in Concord CA area Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070925205719.012defd0@mail.degnanco.net> Please contact the person below if interested Subj: Date: 9/25/2007 8:31:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: pcarmel AT sbcglobal.net Dear Sirs: I have an antique one line display word processor. It is an Olivetti TES 501. I paid $9000.00 for it in the late 70's. I would like to give it to someone in the Concord California area. Can you help me? Mel From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 25 20:23:51 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:23:51 -0700 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:06 PM -0700 9/25/07, David Griffith wrote: >A T41[p] is about close enough. The trick now is to find one without >flakiness. This one looks like it has been dropped or kicked repeatedly. > > Looking at the local place that sells used laptops I can see that for > > what they want for a model this old, you'd almost be better off > > buying a new laptop once you factor in wear and tear. > >Just out of morbid curiosity, how much? $800 for a T40p or T42. http://www.budcom.com/html/hi_end_laptops.html >I would have directed him to Computer Renaisance, but corporate decided to >close it. Oh well. It was a good source of older but still good stuff. >I know of some local turnkey suppliers that might have turn-ins. I've no idea if our local one is still around. I used to like them years ago, and around '99 got a killer deal on a DEC PWS 433au (they didn't really know what they had, what to do with it, or who would buy it). I was also able to buy a PowerBook 540c for less than a new screen for my 520c would have cost, probably around '98. I'd just like to find a nice dirt cheap Thinkpad with a large screen to run Linux or OpenBSD on. For me the screen is the most important part. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 20:36:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:36:18 -0600 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/25/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:06 PM -0700 9/25/07, David Griffith wrote: > >A T41[p] is about close enough. The trick now is to find one without > >flakiness. > > $800 for a T40p or T42. > http://www.budcom.com/html/hi_end_laptops.html > > I'd just like to find a nice dirt cheap Thinkpad with a large screen > to run Linux or OpenBSD on. For me the screen is the most important > part. 3 months of fighting with a T42 and RedHat Enterprise WS 4 makes me want to never touch a Thinkpad again - a thoroughly painful experience (and that from someone who got Solaris 7 working perfectly on a P-133 Dell laptop). -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 25 20:44:53 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'd just like to find a nice dirt cheap Thinkpad with a large screen > > to run Linux or OpenBSD on. For me the screen is the most important > > part. > > 3 months of fighting with a T42 and RedHat Enterprise WS 4 makes me > want to never touch a Thinkpad again - a thoroughly painful experience > (and that from someone who got Solaris 7 working perfectly on a P-133 > Dell laptop). I've been using Ubuntu on a T42 for a bit more than a year with very good results. http://www.thinkwiki.org/ is a great resource. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 25 22:22:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070925202120.A2524@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, David Griffith wrote: > A professor has asked me where one can find decent used laptops. That is, > he needs something close enough to the bleeding edge where he can run > current applications, but far enough away that he won't have to pay much. What do YOU mean by "decent"? UC Berkeley surpluses PII 266MHz Chembooks and Dells in the $100 - $150 range. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 25 22:28:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <200709251934.57837.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> <200709251908.14599.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709251934.57837.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070925202718.Y2524@shell.lmi.net> > contains. I always tell people who ask why I bother with this stuff that > it's like screwing around with a Model T. That never fails to satisfy the > curious. No, that sounds like an expensive hobby for the rich. Tell them that you are also restoring a Yugo, and an Edsel. From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 25 22:30:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:30:00 -0400 Subject: decent used laptops Message-ID: <200709260331.l8Q3Uxe1090875@billy.ezwind.net> Couple of years ago, I paid around $350 for a refurbished P3 Thinkpad, directly from IBM.com ... even came with a warranty. I think Acer, Dell, Gateway, HP, and Lenovo all do the same thing on their web sites. From rivie at ridgenet.net Tue Sep 25 23:26:58 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: <550025.95103.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <550025.95103.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I am about 200 miles away. I looked up the area code > too, and I emailed her - she sent me some pictures of > the machine. It's definitely an interesting beast. I > have no experiance with Burroughs machines, but still > - I'm really tempted. I have no experience with the B80, but used a B800 for a couple of years in high school. I think the B80 is a modernized, snazzy B800. I was working for an accounting firm in Roosevelt, UT. The B800 had a CPU cabinet, a printing console terminal that had two sections: a 17" wide section for interactive use and an 8.5" wide section for interacting with the operating system. To talk to the OS, you'd press SYS REQUEST and issue commands on the smaller section of the console. We had three disk drives; RK05 equivalent. Two removable, one fixed. A small 9-track tape drive and four TD830 terminals. The terminals are form-oriented beasts polled by the computer. You load a form onto the terminal, enter data into the form, and punch transmit to send the completed form back to the computer. Fields on the terminal could be left or right justified, and you could put read-only fields for doing things like identifying the form. I started out doing strictly data entry, but managed to scare up a compiler somewhere and starting programming the thing in COBOL. I'm not a big COBOL fan, but this was a nice COBOL and I enjoyed it. My previous programming experience was primarily BASIC on TRS-80s and PETs and hand-assembled 6800 on my Heathkit microprocessor trainer (no, not that one; the short-lived model with half the memory in a cardboard box. Mine is serial number 8). I managed to get a screen-oriented version of the CANDE editor from a site in Duchesne, but I had to do some fancy jiggery-pokery with the tape drive to load it in; the fellow who gave it to me had written it out as a data file instead of an executable, so the machine refused to read it as an executable. I convinced it to load the program (from tape) by writing a second tape containing a file of the same name that was executable, punching SYS REQUEST after the system had read the label but before it read the file, then swapping tapes (with the other tape pre-positioned after the label) while it was waiting for me to type a command. Screen-oriented CANDE worked by loading a page of text into the terminal, which you edit locally and send back to the computer. It would then load the next page into the terminal. During one summer, I took a FORTRAN programming course over the space of a couple of weekends at Utah State University in Logan, UT, which had a B6800. It also used CANDE, but this was more interactive; the terminal the instructor used was a keyboard wiht a built-in modem and a video output. After lecturing for a while, the professor would leave and everyong would head for the card punch room. Since I knew how to use CANDE, I'd hang back in the classroom and dial in while the riff-raff were using the card punches. Our B800 had a chain printer with no lower case letters, which was fairly annoying. The console was dot matrix and had European characters instead of lower case letters. The terminals did lower case just fine. Booting the machine involved reading a small bootstrap paper tape (which we kept in the carriage of the console terminal) into a small paper tape reader on the front of the CPU. This gave it enough smarts to load the OS from the disk. I think I scarfed the COBOL compiler from the same place I swiped CANDE. They were running, IIRC, a B96 instead of a B800. I had to play some games to get the compiler to run; it would only run if it were a specific job number, so once I figured that out I wrote some do-nothing programs that would just occupy job slots so the compiler would be happy. IIRC, the compiler had eight passes. It was very slow on the B800, but (as I mentioned) was quite nice. We also had a cassette drive, but I didn't do anything more than fiddle with it a bit. The accounting firm had an office in Salt Lake where they had a B80 and a B1800. I did some data entry on the B1800 once, but that was pretty much all I did for them in Salt Lake. We had some manuals for a couple of other programming languages that were more system oriented (NCL?), but I never managed to scare up a compiler for them, so I never used them. The B80 system in Salt Lake had double-density 8" floppies on it, and they treated the disks quite gingerly. Rumor was that they had to be absolutely perfect for the machine to read them. Quite different than my later experience with 8" SSSD CP/M machines. This would all be about 1980 to 1981. The Roosevelt office also had an L5000? machine in the corner that was never used and a big long paper tape that claimed to be a BASIC interpreter for it. I tried loading a few times, but it always reported an error halfway through the tape. I graduated from high school in 1981 and moved on up to college and into the DEC sphere of influence (USU at the time was moving away from the B6800 onto VAX-11/780s). Haven't used a Burroughs since, except once or twice in college when the VAX was down. The Burroughs 8" floppies were hard-sectored. The university designed their own CP/M machine and a couple were built that could read Burroughs hard-sector disks instead of the normal soft-sector ones. I never used those particular machines; I gather that only a few were built. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From rivie at ridgenet.net Tue Sep 25 23:37:48 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: References: <550025.95103.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Roger Ivie wrote: > I was working for an accounting firm in Roosevelt, UT. The B800 > had a CPU cabinet, a printing console terminal that had two > sections: a 17" wide section for interactive use and an 8.5" > wide section for interacting with the operating system. To talk to > the OS, you'd press SYS REQUEST and issue commands on the smaller > section of the console. I forgot to mention that the B80 the firm had in Salt Lake had an LED display instead of a printing console. I think it was about 32x8; the sort of thing you'd see on a cash register. IIRC, the Burroughs name for that sort of display was Self-Scan. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 23:43:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:43:13 -0700 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F980F1.27895.44202BD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Sep 2007 at 16:00, David Griffith wrote: > > A professor has asked me where one can find decent used laptops. That is, > he needs something close enough to the bleeding edge where he can run > current applications, but far enough away that he won't have to pay much. Craigslist can be a good place to start, as http://www.shopgoodwill.com and some of the "off lease" places. Cheers, Chuck From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Sep 26 00:06:12 2007 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:06:12 -0600 Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: <002901c7ff63$c4c5c8d0$1401000a@domain.local> References: <002901c7ff63$c4c5c8d0$1401000a@domain.local> Message-ID: <46F9E8C4.4050003@Rikers.org> Michel Courchesne wrote: > The mini-computer I have is a B80 from Burroughs. > > Mini-computer: W=70 D=29 H=30 ( Photo ) What?!? No computer pr0n? Sheesh. /me googles http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chris.pickles1/burroughs/gallery/bpgb80.htm http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chris.pickles1/burroughs/descriptions/b80.htm -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 26 00:39:21 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:39:21 +0100 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F9F089.6050205@philpem.me.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > 3 months of fighting with a T42 and RedHat Enterprise WS 4 makes me > want to never touch a Thinkpad again - a thoroughly painful experience > (and that from someone who got Solaris 7 working perfectly on a P-133 > Dell laptop). That's odd. I installed Fedora 7 on my T42, and it 'just worked'. All the hardware, from the display to the modem and wireless LAN adapter works perfectly. It's the first laptop I've had that didn't need a special utility to change the power management mode - KPowerSave can do it itself. Very neat. It didn't work completely out of the box, but once I'd set up yum-priorities, the Livna and FreshRPMS repositories, SLModem and MadWiFi, 95% of the hardware worked fine. An hour or so of tweaking and *everything* worked. FWIW, mine's a Type 2373-Q91 -- Atheros AR5212 wireless card, 14.1" 1024x768 LCD, Radeon 7500 graphics (old enough to work with the 'radeon' driver and not require the abomination that is fglrx), 1.8GHz Pentium-M. Pretty standard laptop, really... Maybe RHEL4 is just a little too old for the T42? -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From renevr at unitedtelecom.be Tue Sep 25 08:58:17 2007 From: renevr at unitedtelecom.be (Rene Verbruggen) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:58:17 +0200 Subject: pen plotters? Message-ID: <000501c7ff7c$20adff10$eeeea8c0@nekes1c2e54213> Hi Erik, I have the same problem. Is it possible to copy the book again?? Rene From gtq57 at dial.pipex.com Tue Sep 25 12:26:58 2007 From: gtq57 at dial.pipex.com (WILLIAM ROWAN) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:26:58 +0100 Subject: Spares for IP11 Message-ID: <004801c7ff99$48497000$543c74d5@rowan> Hello, Do you still have any IP11/IP300 modules or know where I can get some. Regards, Bill Rowan. From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 25 14:21:19 2007 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:21:19 -0700 Subject: HP computers available for rescue in Phoenix In-Reply-To: <46F5986D.30958.34DBF0E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: Message-ID: <46F8FD3F.11256.56274D3@localhost> Hi, (In Phoenix, AZ) The widow of a long-time HP 3000 developer is anxious to find a new home/homes for some HP equipment and documentation. I suspect shipping is unlikely, so local pickup is probably necessary. Included are: HP 3000, model 935 or 950 (PA-RISC) HP 3000, model 37 or Micro3000 (Classic) and ancillary peripherals and a number of MPE / HP 3000 manuals. Probably included is a wealth of manuals on internals of HP printers. I've asked for clarification on the HP 3000 model numbers. If anyone is interested, please email me at sieler at allegro.com thanks, Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 25 15:20:28 2007 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:20:28 -0400 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <46F937BE.2000703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925144603.054f5e38@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Mr Ian Primus may have mentioned these words: >Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it >to bring this across the border? I've never picked up >a computer from Canada. Is customs going to raise a >stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? Whatever you do, *don't* say *collectible*!!! "Museum piece" would be another bad term to use. Customs will hear these terms and think $$$. Tell the customs agent that you have a giveaway (and seriously hint that fact being equatable to "worthless" if asked) hardware rack, obsolete wouldn't be a bad term to use... Keep responses short, sweet & to the point. Don't be a smartass[1]. Don't give 'em your life story, as they're busy folk and don't need to hear it. *Especially* don't "hum and haw" when asked a question, the Customs agent will smell fear and pull you over to inspect your cargo, asking more questions than you'd prefer. Go over your story in your head several times, and try to be prepared for any question they might ask, like "Why'd you drive to BFE to get this thing?" or "What's this thing actually worth?" A good story to use is: Part A) "I used one in high school/college but no-one uses these anymore... " and choose either Part B: Part B1) "... and this person was going to throw it away anyway, so I saved it from the dumpster." or Part B2) "... and this person said it didn't work anymore and I wanted the challenge to try to fix it." and if asked to elaborate, try: "it's a hobby just like restoring Model 'T' cars, but for geeks." Something to that effect anyway should work fairly well. Also, if the units "country of origin" was the USA, there shouldn't be any duty for it to return to the USA, no matter how much it's worth, so if there's a tag on the machine or a manual with it that states "Made in the USA" then they shouldn't give you any hassle. A good piece of advice to keep in mind WRT Customs: You are *guilty* until proven innocent. If you're thinking of making a weekend out of it, get a gas receipt, buy a candy bar, etc. once you get into Canada, because if you're looking to hit the Duty Free on the way back, if you can't *prove* you were in Canada as long as you say, you haven't. Period. I worked at a Duty Free for 3 years or so when I was a young lad, and learned quite well the powers (which are considerable) of US Customs. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] It only takes once to get the "wrong officer" (read: Didn't get any the nite before) to make your life hell crossing the border. 3 years ago going to VCF East (the one in Bahston), I crossed from Port Huron, MI to Sarnia, Ont.... made the trip quite a bit shorter for me. No worries... until on the way back. The guy asked me for my passport (which wasn't necessary at the time) and then for my birth certificate (also not necessary, not to mention mine had been destroyed and I'd hadn't gotten it replaced yet at the time) so the guy accused me of a) being a terrorist, and b) never having crossed the border before. I broke my own rules, as I a) rather forcefully reminded him that I was a veteran, b) I grew up on a border town and had prolly crossed into Canada more (by the time I was 20) than he ever had, and c) I knew the crossing rules better than he did. [2] Needless to say, my civil rights were violated that day because of my outburst... but remember, you're not technically in the US until *after* customs, so they can get away with it. Most don't abuse the power, but a few can & do... [2] I (barely) stopped short of both vulgarity and questioning his parentage... thank goodness! -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 25 15:53:56 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:53:56 -0400 Subject: Unknows S-100 System Message-ID: <0JOX0044XZDG3DE9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Unknows S-100 System > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:17:43 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >On Sunday 23 September 2007 09:12, Allison wrote: >> >Subject: Re: Unknows S-100 System >> > From: "Roy J. Tellason" >> > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 23:44:57 -0400 >> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> > >> > >> >On Saturday 22 September 2007 19:35, Barry Watzman wrote: >> >> All commercial software used 8080 instructions, >> > >> >Well, no. Two that I know of that did require a z80 were Turbo Pascal >> > and Mix C. >> > >> >-- >> >> What I wrote something similar I used the word "most" as I knew there was >> some CP/M software that required z80. However from a business user >> perspective most of the deireable and likely used software like word >> preocessors, spreadsheets and databases 8080 was just fine save for >> speed and the 8085 solved that. Also the 8085 was more of a bridge >> than the ultimate application cpu. Somebody else used all. I used most, you have the series of posters crumped.. >Yup, but the word used there was "all". :-) By someone that posted before me. You have a bunch or people and me munged together. I've been at it long enough to know and have delt with the transistion from 8080 to z80 and on. My first system was Altair (8080) upgraded to NS* (z80) and in '79 I bought a Netronics Explorer 8085 all of which I still have and all work. The amount of software that eould ran on 8080 was sufficient to keep 8080 users going into the 16bit world. >And then there was software that was good enough to test what it had, and go >from there... Yes, some of the stuff was adaptive. There was also a version of ZCPR that was "trimmed" to run on 8080 so that at least a few improvements were available. Allison From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 17:32:22 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com> References: <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> <21D99049-2125-43FB-A2B5-76AC3C1EB8B2@neurotica.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Steven Hirsch may have mentioned these words: >> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> >>> Hey folks...I don't know if there are any Atari hackers around here; I >>> may be alone...but I wanted to let any interested parties know that I've >>> located a source for the proprietary connectors that Atari used for their >>> "SIO" bus, which is used to connect nearly all of their peripherals in a >>> daisy-chain configuration. >>> >>> http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?AZndUfrS;AT13F;6 >> >> Not only that, but they have the rarer-than-hens-teeth DB23 connectors (as >> used by NeXT Station sound boxes) and DB19 connectors (later Apple 2 >> external flopppy drives). > > Weren't the 19-pin D-sub connectors also used on the Atari Falcon for their > video? And what "size letters" would they have? Remember: DB-19 and DB-23 -- From dpor02 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 22:48:01 2007 From: dpor02 at yahoo.com (David O'Rourke) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq BIOS, sp0308.zip Message-ID: <318884.948.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Any chance someone has a copy of sp0308.zip for Compaq 386s? Tried link from http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-August/048574.html at ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.zip but no luck. DriverGuide also didn't have the correct link. Thanks. Dave --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 01:55:55 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq BIOS, sp0308.zip - here: In-Reply-To: <318884.948.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <956249.64837.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://oldcomputers.net/sp0308.zip David O'Rourke wrote: Any chance someone has a copy of sp0308.zip for Compaq 386s? Tried link from http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-August/048574.html at ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.zip but no luck. DriverGuide also didn't have the correct link. Thanks. Dave --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Sep 26 01:58:26 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:58:26 -0700 Subject: Compaq BIOS, sp0308.zip In-Reply-To: <318884.948.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <318884.948.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <035201c8000a$a34462a0$6a01a8c0@liberator> SOFTPAQ NUMBER: SP0308.ZIP PART NUMBER: N/A FILE NAME: SP0308.EXE TITLE: SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 DP256 720K (3.5 Inch Diskette) VERSION: 8.00 ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.zip That help ya out? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David O'Rourke Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:48 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Compaq BIOS, sp0308.zip Any chance someone has a copy of sp0308.zip for Compaq 386s? Tried link from http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-August/048574.html at ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.zip but no luck. DriverGuide also didn't have the correct link. Thanks. Dave --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 26 01:59:45 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:59:45 -0700 Subject: TENEX MW705-D PS for Commodore 128 Message-ID: As luck would have it, after purchasing a repairable PS for my C64 on eBay on Sunday, then I was given a TENEX MW705-D PS for the Commodore 128 on Monday. I'm curious, it has two power cables on it, one is the 5-pin plug for the C128, the other is a 4-pin plug, what is the 4-pin plug for? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Sep 26 01:29:08 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 03:29:08 -0300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 65 Message-ID: <01C7FFED.84C0AC20@mandr71> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:26:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Roger Ivie Subject: Re: Old mini computer >On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> I am about 200 miles away. I looked up the area code >> too, and I emailed her - she sent me some pictures of >> the machine. It's definitely an interesting beast. I >> have no experiance with Burroughs machines, but still >> - I'm really tempted. >I have no experience with the B80, but used a B800 for a couple >of years in high school. I think the B80 is a modernized, snazzy >B800. Ummm, not really; they were slightly different lines, the B800 being the smallest of the "real" computers (successor to the B700) with a separate processor cabinet and somewhat more power, more suited to running multiple terminals (although the console was essentially a B80/L9000 with no innards). The B80 (and later the B90) marked Burroughs' transition away from ledger cards to disks (either 8" floppies or 14" cartridges as used on the B800) and was essentially the successor and replacement of the L series single-user integrated accounting computers. The B80 and B800 were priced differently and aimed at slightly different markets, although they did share some peripherals and the system software (CMS, CANDE etc.) mike From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Sep 26 03:10:09 2007 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:10:09 -0700 Subject: Old mini computer (B80) In-Reply-To: <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FA13E1.4090204@crash.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Now, what I'm wondering, is how big of a hassle is it > to bring this across the border? I've never picked up > a computer from Canada. Is customs going to raise a > stink about a 25 year old minicomputer? Back in late 2002, just after I'd been laid off, I convinced my girlfriend to take a trip with me from Boston to Fredericton, New Brunswick to pick up some Nat Semi ICM-3216 gear that had been built for use at UNB. We drove up one day, spent the night in a motel, had a grand time meeting the professor and his wife the next day and collecting the gear before heading back South. Coming back I would have been waved through except that I piped up with what I had in back and handed over a note from the donor. Fortunately when they read it was a gift of 15 year old obsolete computer stuff with no commercial value, I was passed through. Country of origin might have come up, I can't recall. --S. My post about customs: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2002-November/010544.html My post about the systems: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2002-November/010545.html From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Sep 26 08:14:27 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:14:27 +0000 Subject: decent used laptops Message-ID: <092620071314.12426.46FA5B330007082B0000308A22007511509DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> >Message: 13 >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:23:51 -0700 >From: "Zane H. Healy" >Subject: Re: decent used laptops >$800 for a T40p or T42. >http://www.budcom.com/html/hi_end_laptops.html > Zane Just got a new TigerDirect (www.tigerdirect.com) catalog -- refurbished T42 (512MB RAM & 40GB HD) $600, T40 $500. Bob From charlesmorris at hughes.net Wed Sep 26 08:58:56 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:58:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [SPAM(date)] Directory entry limit (OS/8)? Message-ID: <14198375.1190815136378.JavaMail.?@fh064.dia.cp.net> Anyone know how many files can be stored on an RL02 under OS/8 before getting the "Directory Overflow Error"? thanks Charles From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 26 09:05:59 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:05:59 -0500 Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: <01C7FFED.84C0AC20@mandr71> References: <01C7FFED.84C0AC20@mandr71> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070926090306.05836950@mail> At 01:29 AM 9/26/2007, M H Stein wrote: >The B80 (and later the B90) marked Burroughs' transition away from >ledger cards to disks (either 8" floppies or 14" cartridges as used on >the B800) and was essentially the successor and replacement of the >L series single-user integrated accounting computers. I'm ready to make a confession. Early in the youth of my classic career, I once destructed a Burroughs of some kind. I still have two of the 14" bare platters and probably a bag of chips somewhere that I yanked. I remember a big desk-sized cabinet, and that the platters were covered with a flexible plastic cover, as if it were a record player. What did I destroy? :-) - John From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 09:13:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:13:09 -0400 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46FA68F5.3020809@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'd just like to find a nice dirt cheap Thinkpad with a large screen to > run Linux or OpenBSD on. For me the screen is the most important part. If I might make a suggestion, look at the Thinkpad A31p. Big screen, high res, and has two Ultrabays, which means you can run three batteries, or a DVD-ROM with a DVD-RW, or any of dozens of other combinations. It's a Pentium 4M. Available up to 2GHz, which should be enough for pretty much anything. Peace... Sridhar From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 09:48:37 2007 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:48:37 -0400 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: <46FA68F5.3020809@gmail.com> References: <46FA68F5.3020809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550709260748s3669b38es4b12d7f9ac16f9cd@mail.gmail.com> Keep an eye on Office Depot for their Red Tag sales. I got a brand new toshiba laptop there a few months ago for $310 after tax. On 9/26/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I'd just like to find a nice dirt cheap Thinkpad with a large screen to > > run Linux or OpenBSD on. For me the screen is the most important part. > > If I might make a suggestion, look at the Thinkpad A31p. Big screen, > high res, and has two Ultrabays, which means you can run three > batteries, or a DVD-ROM with a DVD-RW, or any of dozens of other > combinations. > > It's a Pentium 4M. Available up to 2GHz, which should be enough for > pretty much anything. > > Peace... Sridhar > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Sep 26 10:14:41 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:14:41 -0400 Subject: US imports (was: Re: Old mini computer (B80)) In-Reply-To: <46F986BC.2060605@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46F96A58.6090805@msm.umr.edu> <866459.16707.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46F96A58.6090805@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070926105230.012cc1d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >jim s wrote: >>If you are bringing in something made in the USA then locate the "Made in >>USA" badges and show them to any interested customs agents. There are no >>duties on US made goods. If the unit was not primarily assembled in the >>US then show them a reciept showing how much you paid for it, and the >>age, and I doubt there would be any duty on it. > >Hmm, I can see I'm going to have fun if I try to bring 10-15 UK machines >in (which are all 80s or older, but receipts? - haha!) > >Unless of course it's different because it's stuff I've owned for years >(just not kept in the US) rather than items I've just acquired. Maybe >"personal belongings" is a different case... AFAIK, it depends on if you will continue to be the owner of said merchandise. Quite often with customs, they ask the question: "Are you bringing anything you're not taking back when you go?" If you own the merchandise, and at the end of your time in the US you'll be taking those same machines back with you, then there shouldn't be any issues at all. If you're bringing them over for others and you won't own them anymore, then the questions of valuation & whatnot... and if they're gifts & no valuation, there should be no problem. If you're selling them, then the gubbermint will always want their cut. ;-| Granted, most (all?) of these rules stem from tariffs generated primarily on booze, cigarettes, etc. Canadian Customs Occifer: "Do you have anything with you you'll be leaving in Canada?" You: "Oh, I'm just bringing these 30 cartons of cigarettes into Canada as presents for my cousins there..." Canadian Customs Occifer asks you to pull over and go inside, where you're fingerprinted, stripsearched, etc... .... Canadian Cigarette & Booze taxes are much higher than in the US, and smuggling is rampant. If there were issues with rampant computer smuggling, they'd make more of an issue with that, too. There was (well, kinda...) at one time - When the Tandy CoCo3 debuted in the US for $219USD, the Canadian version (exact same thing, but manuals are in French as well as English) debuted for $199CDN... about $145USD at the time. They were made in Korea, so there was a duty imposed on the computers. Software was also cheaper in Canada (before exchange), and almost all of it was manufactured in the US at the time, so there was no duty on it. A lot of people were flocking to Canada to buy computers at the time... now they do it for Viagra. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 26 10:27:23 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:27:23 -0400 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: <200709261239.l8QCcxlY084854@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002001c80051$bcfd3180$6500a8c0@barry> I buy old laptops on E-Bay and refurbish them for resale, a few dozen per year. From your description, however, you professor friend should buy new. I just sold a couple of nice Pentium III laptops from 2002 (Toshiba 2805's), and they went for almost $200. But in my view, they are still too old to run most "current applications", and at $200 for those, a new laptop makes more sense than a used one. In July I bought a brand new Gateway MT6711 at Best Buy for $499, no rebates, straight out deal. This is a dual core Pentium laptop with a 15" widescreen display, a 160GB hard drive, a dual layer DVD burner and a Gigabyte of memory, with Vista Home Premium. There are a LOT of very good laptop deals this week. I think that the deals available for $499 to $649 are good enough to make buying an older used laptop not worthwhile in terms of value. I don't know for sure what he had in mind price wise, but he can get a pretty nice new machine for about $500, and anything that "will run current applications" in a way that you would want to run them will probably be $300-$350 or more for a used machine. A machine with no warranty and unknown history. Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:59:20 -0700 From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: decent used laptops To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 4:00 PM -0700 9/25/07, David Griffith wrote: >A professor has asked me where one can find decent used laptops. That is, >he needs something close enough to the bleeding edge where he can run >current applications, but far enough away that he won't have to pay much. From fire at dls.net Wed Sep 26 10:47:38 2007 From: fire at dls.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:47:38 -0500 Subject: QMS Colorscript 100 Message-ID: <20070926154738.DAAA1A3@demolition.dls.net> I am not certain how to tell which model this is. It has square control box which sit under printer. Weighs a LOT. This is a thermal tranfer printer. I am putting it up. I played with it a little last week to verify that it works. Supplies will probably be difficult to get for it, but it does come with some. If no one wants it, I will recycle it. If there is interest I can give detailed listing of parts. Several paper trays, including 11 x 17. I live NW of Chicago, IL. Pick up is probably preferable to shipping. It weighs a LOT. Bradley From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 26 11:02:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:02:35 -0600 Subject: Free Olivetti TES 501 one-line word processor (Concord, CA) Message-ID: I received this today. Please contact the owner directly. Thanks! Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:20:02 -0700 From: Melvin Phillips --------- Dear Sirs: I have an antique one line display word processor. It is an Olivetti TES 501. I paid $9000.00 for it in the late 70's. I would like to give it to someone in the Concord California area. Can you help me? Mel Phillips -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 12:04:19 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:04:19 +0100 Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: <550025.95103.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200709251542.LAA09446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <550025.95103.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709261004p55284529ra0b37237bf0bbe34@mail.gmail.com> On 25/09/2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I am about 200 miles away. I looked up the area code > too, and I emailed her /Her/? Are you sure? "Michel" is the Francophone version of "Michael". The feminine version is "Michelle". It's as different as "blond" and "blonde". A blond is a man, a blonde is a woman. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Wed Sep 26 13:57:58 2007 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:57:58 +0200 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Directory entry limit (OS/8)? In-Reply-To: <14198375.1190815136378.JavaMail.?@fh064.dia.cp.net> References: <14198375.1190815136378.JavaMail.?@fh064.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <1190833043.1037.30.camel@bladerider.local> This does not depend on the device but on the number of Additional Information Words (for example the date). The maximum is 240 files with the default of 1 Additional Information Word. Excerpts out of the OS/8 software support manual: " 1.2.4 File Directories and Additional Information Words ... OS/8 allocates blocks 1 through 6 of each file structured device as the file directory. ... Each entry in a directory can, optionally, have extra storage words called Additional Information Words. The number of Additional Information Words is determined at the time the directory is initially created (normally by using the /S or /Z features of PIP; see Chapter 1 of OS/8 HANDBOOK. Whenever Additional Information Words are used, the first one for each file entry is used to store the value of the System Date Word at the time the file was created. OS/8 automatically uses one extra word per entry for the date. ... " and " A.1.2 Number and Size of OS/8 Files ... Each directory segment must have enough unused words at the end to accommodate a permanent file entry (N+5 words, where N is the number of Additional Information Words). Thus, if N is the number of Additional Information Words the maximum number of permanent file entries in any one segment is: 256-7 - (N+5) 244-N MIN = [-------------] = [-----] N+7 N+7 with N=1, MAX=40 and MIN=30. Since there are six segments in the directory, the maximum number of files possible (with N=1) would be 240. ... " Greetings Gerold Am Mi, den 26.09.2007 schrieb charlesmorris at hughes.net um 15:58: > Anyone know how many files can be stored on an RL02 under OS/8 before > getting the "Directory Overflow Error"? > > thanks > Charles From scheefj at netscape.net Wed Sep 26 14:03:22 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:03:22 -0400 Subject: Compaq BIOS, sp0308.zip In-Reply-To: <318884.948.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <318884.948.qm@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FAACFA.8000400@netscape.net> Dave, While others beat me to sending the file, here's how I found it: I went to hp.com and search for the filename. The result was a link FTP Listing of HP & Compaq drivers, files and utilities by filename which takes you to ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/. From here I drilled down to find the file. I wish I could say I knew this before today, but this is a great resource to keep in mind when working on older Compaq machines. Files for HP machines must be somewhere else. Jim David O'Rourke wrote: > > Any chance someone has a copy of sp0308.zip for Compaq 386s? > > Tried link from http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-August/048574.html > > at ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.zip > > but no luck. DriverGuide also didn't have the correct link. > > Thanks. > > Dave > > > --------------------------------- > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 26 15:43:38 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: <0JO70044HCURIGB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but still large and heavy, system: http://tinyurl.com/yoxvav Bob From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 15:55:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:55:05 -0400 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FAC729.3050002@gmail.com> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but still large and heavy, system: > > http://tinyurl.com/yoxvav I... want... that... Gaaah! I need space! Peace... Sridhar From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Sep 26 16:01:07 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:01:07 -0700 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but still large and heavy, system: Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent away. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 26 16:09:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:09:17 -0600 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <46FACA7D.5000403@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris Kennedy wrote: > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but still large and heavy, system: > > Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent away. That is good ... We don't want the west coast collectors with more. California will slip into the ocean quicker. :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 26 16:14:59 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:14:59 -0700 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: At 2:01 PM -0700 9/26/07, Chris Kennedy wrote: >Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but still large and >>heavy, system: > >Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent away. If that is a concern, then you have no business collecting Mainframes! :^) Out of curiosity, am I correct that the three storagetek tape libraries actually take up more space than the mainframe and drive array? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:23:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:23:14 -0400 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <46FACDC2.4040101@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? Here's a newer, but still large and >>> heavy, system: >> >> Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent >> away. > > If that is a concern, then you have no business collecting Mainframes! :^) > > Out of curiosity, am I correct that the three storagetek tape libraries > actually take up more space than the mainframe and drive array? Yes. That's a newish machine. I think it came out in 2000. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:41:47 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:41:47 -0400 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > Out of curiosity, am I correct that the three storagetek tape > libraries actually take up more space than the mainframe and drive > array? Probably - but that is not weird. Even in the old days the tape and disk farms were bigger than the processors. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 26 16:58:19 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:58:19 -0700 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: At 5:41 PM -0400 9/26/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > Out of curiosity, am I correct that the three storagetek tape >> libraries actually take up more space than the mainframe and drive >> array? > >Probably - but that is not weird. Even in the old days the tape and >disk farms were bigger than the processors. Depends on the system, on the Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframes I worked on the CPU's took up more space than the tape drives. Now disk drives were another matter, at least on the production system. :^) They took up a majority of the computer room space. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Sep 26 13:35:47 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:35:47 +0000 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: <46F980F1.27895.44202BD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: Message-ID: <20070926223315.IAYU1592.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> While others are talking about these prices.. Those PII 266mhz notebooks for 100 is not worth taking. The eviroment do demand 2000 Pro or XP requires PIII 1GHz minimum & 512MB ram. PIII notebooks look in 150-300 range. Centrino/Pentium Mobile notebooks you can have one now for about 350-500 range complete these days which are best choices. My favorites is Dell D600, patiently waiting till funds is available. :P Just watch out for those that needs battery. This explodes the total "reasonable" cost of a used notebook to a low end new notebook with warranty in a instant. Cheers, Wizard From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 17:33:07 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:33:07 -0500 Subject: calcomp 8" drive motors available Message-ID: <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0@BILLING> Two drive motors from Calcomp 8" floppy drives are available. If interested please email off-list. Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 17:21:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:21:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Sep 25, 7 06:32:22 pm Message-ID: > > Weren't the 19-pin D-sub connectors also used on the Atari Falcon for their > > video? And what "size letters" would they have? Remember: > > DB-19 and DB-23 Why> They are not a B-size shell, they're smaller. As somebody else said, I've seen them called DF19 and DG23, but I don't think that's official. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 17:26:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:26:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Old mini computer In-Reply-To: from "Roger Ivie" at Sep 25, 7 09:37:48 pm Message-ID: > I forgot to mention that the B80 the firm had in Salt Lake had an > LED display instead of a printing console. I think it was about > 32x8; the sort of thing you'd see on a cash register. IIRC, > the Burroughs name for that sort of display was Self-Scan. A Self-Scan display is not LED, it's gas-discharge (normally neon). It works a bit like a Dekatron counter tube, in that the discharge can be stepped from one electrode to the next by a pair of control electrodes. Think of it as a combined shift register and display, or rather 7 or 8 shift registers (one for each row of the display) with common clock. Basically, you apply a column of dots to the main eelectrodes at one end, sequence the control electrodes to move it onto the next column, apply the next column of dots, and so on until you've uilt up the pattern you want. -tony From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Sep 26 17:37:26 2007 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 00:37:26 +0200 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070926223726.GB13268@thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 07:36:18PM -0600, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/25/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 5:06 PM -0700 9/25/07, David Griffith wrote: > > >A T41[p] is about close enough. The trick now is to find one without > > >flakiness. > > > > $800 for a T40p or T42. > > http://www.budcom.com/html/hi_end_laptops.html > > > > I'd just like to find a nice dirt cheap Thinkpad with a large screen > > to run Linux or OpenBSD on. For me the screen is the most important > > part. > > 3 months of fighting with a T42 and RedHat Enterprise WS 4 makes me > want to never touch a Thinkpad again - a thoroughly painful experience > (and that from someone who got Solaris 7 working perfectly on a P-133 > Dell laptop). I've got a Thinkpad T43p and while it was originally supplied with Windows XP, getting Linux onto it (Ubuntu in this case) was no problem. Works like a charm - including fully encrypted filesystems and swap ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 26 18:04:24 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 00:04:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: <20070926223315.IAYU1592.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <782521.57661.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Personally, I use a Dell Latitude C610 (1GHz Pentium IIIm) Anyway, I have just got my copperlist working (sort of) on my (emulated) Amiga and wondered if anyone here has experience in creating visual effects with the copperlist? I'm not expecting code, but some advice on keeping things efficient wouldn't go amiss :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: While others are talking about these prices.. Those PII 266mhz notebooks for 100 is not worth taking. The eviroment do demand 2000 Pro or XP requires PIII 1GHz minimum & 512MB ram. PIII notebooks look in 150-300 range. Centrino/Pentium Mobile notebooks you can have one now for about 350-500 range complete these days which are best choices. My favorites is Dell D600, patiently waiting till funds is available. :P Just watch out for those that needs battery. This explodes the total "reasonable" cost of a used notebook to a low end new notebook with warranty in a instant. Cheers, Wizard From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 26 18:13:03 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:13:03 -0400 Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:24:51 PDT." Message-ID: <200709262313.l8QND39D023345@mwave.heeltoe.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > >The IBM 1620 Restoration Team at the Computer History Museum needs a copy >for a project they are working on to interface a CalComp plotter to the >1620. huh. Many years ago the folks at Carleton College in Northfield MN had a 1620 with a CalComp plotter. I've often wondered about that plotter. They had some really nice 3d software (written by a guy who went to my high school, I think) which could duplicate the "hat" drawing on the side of the plotter. The rumor was that the Calcomp install tech bet him he couldn't do it :-) I have no info, sadly. I used it a little but that was it. -brad From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 26 18:13:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:13:32 -0600 Subject: calcomp 8" drive motors available In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:33:07 -0500. <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Two drive motors from Calcomp 8" floppy drives are available. Calcomp made floppies?!?! I thought they just made plotters! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 18:14:40 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: <782521.57661.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <782521.57661.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070926160707.S53816@shell.lmi.net> > Those PII 266mhz notebooks for 100 is not worth taking. It's working fine for reading and writing this, using PINE on my ISP. Oh, wait. I think that this one is 233MHz. "MHz" is "Mega-Hertz" If "mhz" is milli-hertz", then it would be too slow to be practical. But, if somebody wants to run current versions of MICROS~1 Weird, and Officious, then you might need hundreds of Giga-hertz and TeraBytes of storage. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 26 18:20:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:20:03 -0600 Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:13:03 -0400. <200709262313.l8QND39D023345@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200709262313.l8QND39D023345 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > They had some really nice 3d software (written by a guy who went to > my high school, I think) which could duplicate the "hat" drawing > on the side of the plotter. What's the "hat" drawing on the side of the plotter? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 26 18:26:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:26:42 -0700 Subject: calcomp 8" drive motors available In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <46FA8842.23056.4824C0C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Sep 2007 at 17:13, Richard wrote: > > In article <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, > "Jay West" writes: > > > Two drive motors from Calcomp 8" floppy drives are available. > > Calcomp made floppies?!?! I thought they just made plotters! Nope--my first drives were Calcomp 104's. Miserable things. I believe they were also the stock drive for the Imsai 8080 floppy box. --Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 26 19:03:12 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:03:12 -0500 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46FAF340.1080409@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > $800 for a T40p or T42. You can get entirely new laptops for $800 so I'm not sure I'd recommend that course of action. Yes, I love my T41, but I wouldn't consider it worth $800. After three years, the battery is shot and the battery is $130 right there. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 26 19:05:01 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:05:01 -0500 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46FAF3AD.10800@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > 3 months of fighting with a T42 and RedHat Enterprise WS 4 makes me ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Found the problem! Redhat Enterprise is not for workstations no matter what the "WS" stands for. Practically anything else -- ubuntu, Fedore Core, etc. are better and "just work". -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 26 19:40:16 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: <46FAF340.1080409@oldskool.org> References: <46FAF340.1080409@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > $800 for a T40p or T42. > > You can get entirely new laptops for $800 so I'm not sure I'd recommend > that course of action. Yes, I love my T41, but I wouldn't consider it > worth $800. After three years, the battery is shot and the battery is > $130 right there. That brings me to the question of "do you buy a new battery or a new laptop?". My T42's batter is starting to get just a wee bit old. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 26 20:01:48 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:01:48 -0500 Subject: Amiga copper programming In-Reply-To: <782521.57661.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <782521.57661.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FB00FC.3010600@oldskool.org> Andrew Burton wrote: > Anyway, I have just got my copperlist working (sort of) on my (emulated) Amiga and wondered if anyone here has experience in creating visual effects with the copperlist? > I'm not expecting code, but some advice on keeping things efficient wouldn't go amiss :) There are still many Amiga "demoscene" diskmags available (check aminet) that have a ton of visual effects and the code that makes them. I'd grab a few and check them out. google search for things like "amiga demo programming" and "amiga demoscene diskmag" to get some useful hits. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 26 20:04:15 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:04:15 -0500 Subject: decent used laptops In-Reply-To: References: <46FAF340.1080409@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46FB018F.2090401@oldskool.org> David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> $800 for a T40p or T42. >> You can get entirely new laptops for $800 so I'm not sure I'd recommend >> that course of action. Yes, I love my T41, but I wouldn't consider it >> worth $800. After three years, the battery is shot and the battery is >> $130 right there. > > That brings me to the question of "do you buy a new battery or a new > laptop?". My T42's batter is starting to get just a wee bit old. If the laptop is good, then the battery of course. My T41 has a gig of RAM and a 1.5GHz CPU. I use it for everything that doesn't need heavy lifting (games, video editing) and for "everything else" it works great. It's three years old; the battery is shot; the battery is $135 to replace, so I'm going to replace the battery. I doubt I could replace the entire machine for $135, so my choice is easy. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 20:57:43 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:57:43 -0500 Subject: HP75 computer In-Reply-To: <46FA9F33.28178.BC3141E@localhost> References: <51ea77730709111729v1a372b3jb3237106e9585a46@mail.gmail.com> <46FA9F33.28178.BC3141E@localhost> Message-ID: <51ea77730709261857h1c4957adkae2f63d35ebd625f@mail.gmail.com> On 9/26/07, Stan Sieler wrote: > I don't recall ever getting an HP 75 out of that expansion box :) > But, info about doing it is at: > http://www.thimet.de/CalcCollection/Calculators/HP-75C/HP-82718A- > ExpansionPod.html Yep, I finally figured it out (with some off-list help.) You've got to unscrew the case, basically. Now that I know that, I'll put it back in :) > IIRC, the box adds extra memory to the HP 75. > http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp75.htm And built-in software for the barcode reader, too! And I've even got one of those. What I still don't have, however, is a power supply... From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 21:54:28 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:54:28 -0500 Subject: pdp 11 boot roms Message-ID: <001801c800b1$b91dabc0$6600a8c0@JWEST> My semi-yearly reminder.... Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off TMSCP TK50 & TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 boot roms for rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". If you have it, I (and a few others) would love if I could borrow it to make an image. Best regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 21:54:45 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:54:45 -0500 Subject: calcomp floppy drive motors Message-ID: <001c01c800b1$c2c85760$6600a8c0@JWEST> Have been claimed... Jay From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 22:02:28 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:02:28 -0500 Subject: calcomp 8" drive motors available In-Reply-To: References: <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <624966d60709262002n74e9b5e2x6f97610fee2fc535@mail.gmail.com> Calcomp made the original DEC RX01 Paul On 9/26/07, Richard wrote: > > > In article <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, > "Jay West" writes: > > > Two drive motors from Calcomp 8" floppy drives are available. > > Calcomp made floppies?!?! I thought they just made plotters! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 22:11:46 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:11:46 -0500 Subject: Spares for IP11 In-Reply-To: <004801c7ff99$48497000$543c74d5@rowan> References: <004801c7ff99$48497000$543c74d5@rowan> Message-ID: <624966d60709262011y3f49cf64i7a375fc9cfbd63c0@mail.gmail.com> Hi Bill, Is that a DEC IP11? Paul On 9/25/07, WILLIAM ROWAN wrote: > > Hello, > > Do you still have any IP11/IP300 modules or know where I can get some. > > Regards, > Bill Rowan. > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 26 23:03:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:03:44 -0600 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) Message-ID: ebay item # 142391 Unfortunately the seller is in Oman with 0 feedback rating. Good luck on that one! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Sep 26 22:16:48 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 00:16:48 -0300 Subject: decent used laptops Message-ID: <01C8009B.CF4FBF20@mandr71> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith Subject: Re: decent used laptops On Wed, 26 Sep 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > $800 for a T40p or T42. > > You can get entirely new laptops for $800 so I'm not sure I'd recommend > that course of action. Yes, I love my T41, but I wouldn't consider it > worth $800. After three years, the battery is shot and the battery is > $130 right there. That brings me to the question of "do you buy a new battery or a new laptop?". My T42's batter is starting to get just a wee bit old. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu ---------------------------------------------- Reply: If you're up for rebuilding the battery, there are lots of places that'll sell you replacement cells; should be able to get away with half the cost or a little more. Sometimes only one or two cells are bad, although the rest do usually follow unless the bad ones were reverse-charged or just duds. m From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Sep 26 23:52:21 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 00:52:21 -0400 Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070927045221.53F9BBA4597@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200709262313.l8QND39D023345 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, > Brad Parker writes: > > > They had some really nice 3d software (written by a guy who went to > > my high school, I think) which could duplicate the "hat" drawing > > on the side of the plotter. > > What's the "hat" drawing on the side of the plotter? Gotta be the 3D plot with hidden line removal of the "Mexican hat" function, sin(r)/r where r = sqrt(x**2 + y**2). I didn't figure out hidden line removal until my freshman year in college! I think it was the same trip to the shower that finally revealed why "What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"/"Ask a glass of water!" was funny! Tim. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 27 00:33:14 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: repairing really tiny traces Message-ID: A friend of mine dropped a screwdriver into an open chassis and dinged two very tiny traces that are beyond his ability to fix. Is there someone in or around Portland, Oregon who could possibly fix this? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 27 01:17:55 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:17:55 -0700 Subject: TI-99/4A Floppies Message-ID: How well has TI-99/4A software on floppies been preserved? We just received a very large donation. As part of the donation is what appears to be a complete TI-99/4A system complete with the expansion box, and a couple other expansions. There is documentation for at least some of the hardware and software. At this time I've no idea how much TI software is in there, as the TI floppies are mixed in with hundreds if not thousands of floppies. I know the 5 1/4 floppies include TI, C64/128, Apple ][, and PC floppies. There are 8" Tandy, and possibly IBM Displaywriter floppies, tons of 3.5" floppies, and at least one 3" Amstrad floppy. There is obvious commercial software for the TI on floppy (including a boxed Infocom game), as well as what appears to be a lot of floppies from what I suspect was a TI club (these might not be TI floppies). I thought I had a lot of floppies until I saw this pile. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Sep 26 02:53:02 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:53:02 +0100 Subject: US imports (was: Re: Old mini computer (B80)) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAF2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> How about 'museum pieces on loan for exhibition.' Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 25 September 2007 23:08 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: US imports (was: Re: Old mini computer (B80)) jim s wrote: > If you are bringing in something made in the USA then locate the "Made > in USA" badges and show them to any interested customs agents. There > are no duties on US made goods. If the unit was not primarily > assembled in the US then show them a reciept showing how much you paid > for it, and the age, and I doubt there would be any duty on it. Hmm, I can see I'm going to have fun if I try to bring 10-15 UK machines in (which are all 80s or older, but receipts? - haha!) Unless of course it's different because it's stuff I've owned for years (just not kept in the US) rather than items I've just acquired. Maybe "personal belongings" is a different case... I need to give a few shipping companies a prod I suppose and see what their experiences are. From robertlp.mounier at 9online.fr Wed Sep 26 08:40:40 2007 From: robertlp.mounier at 9online.fr (Robert Mounier) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:40:40 +0200 Subject: Motorola S-record converter source for new project Message-ID: <006901c80042$d6a072a0$45474c56@BARCO> Hello, On internet I found a chat where you write about Lilbug.asm. Could you please help me to findinformation about it. Many years ago I used to work with 6801L1 coming with LILbug monitor. Today I still have few pieces, but I no longer have any documentation about the monitor. Could you help me to find an user manual of the LILbug or more simply the list and syntax for the commands and addresses of the routines (like conversion Hexa-Ascii and so.). In advance many thanks for your answer. From sieler at allegro.com Wed Sep 26 19:59:09 2007 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:59:09 -0700 Subject: HP computers available for rescue in Phoenix In-Reply-To: <46F8FD3F.11256.56274D3@localhost> References: <46F5986D.30958.34DBF0E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46FA9DED.28906.BBE1A51@localhost> Re: > The widow of a long-time HP 3000 developer is anxious > to find a new home/homes for some HP equipment and documentation. > I suspect shipping is unlikely, so local pickup is probably necessary. I've had three people email me, and I've emailed them the status. We're still trying to get more information. HP 3000/925 (PA-RISC) and HP 3000/37 (Classic) thanks! Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From sieler at allegro.com Wed Sep 26 20:01:01 2007 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:01:01 -0700 Subject: HP integral , 82297a In-Reply-To: <46D87BFB.2050608@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <46FA9E5D.31620.BBFD1D4@localhost> Re: > I seem to rember that people on this list ( Tony ?) have extended a > 512K memory expansion for the HP integral. HP made an external memory expansion box for the Integral. I have one, and I've seen two or three others. Unfortunately, it takes a special cable to connect the Integral to the expansion box, and (IIRC) I don't have one. (I don't know how much memory can go into the expansion box.) Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From sieler at allegro.com Wed Sep 26 20:04:35 2007 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:04:35 -0700 Subject: HP75 computer In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709111729v1a372b3jb3237106e9585a46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46FA9F33.28178.BC3141E@localhost> Re: > http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/1352040166/ > > Two questions: > > - Does anyone know the story with the AT&T rebadging? Was it sold > this way? Internal use only? What was it used for there? > > - How the @!%# do you get it out of the docking pod? I'm beginning to > think it's been bolted in somehow by AT&T. I don't recall ever getting an HP 75 out of that expansion box :) But, info about doing it is at: http://www.thimet.de/CalcCollection/Calculators/HP-75C/HP-82718A- ExpansionPod.html IIRC, the box adds extra memory to the HP 75. http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp75.htm -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 27 01:35:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 00:35:36 -0600 Subject: US imports (was: Re: Old mini computer (B80)) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAF2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BAF2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46FB4F38.6080301@jetnet.ab.ca> Rod Smallwood wrote: > How about 'museum pieces on loan for exhibition.' You have all the paper-work from the museums in question.? > Rod Smallwood > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Sep 27 09:26:35 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:26:35 -0400 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070927101236.045268a0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >ebay item # 142391 > >Unfortunately the seller is in Oman with 0 feedback rating. > >Good luck on that one! Either ePay's business has gone downhill quick, or that's one *very* old auction! ;-) Unforch, I couldn't find that auction via the search utility, but I found this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ290164849786 for a "bubblevision" 3278-2 terminal... looks like it's sold by the same individual that you are speaking of, tho! Seller: rcs-2007( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) Member: since Sep-22-07 in Oman Member has an eBay Store: RIYAM-OMAN $50 opening bid, and *only* $475 to ship it to the US! Whaddadeal! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 27 09:43:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:43:30 +0100 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FBC192.8090104@yahoo.co.uk> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? I was talking to a chap the other day who came to drop off bits of an IBM 3850 mass storage system*; he was ex-Amdahl and by the sounds of it some of their systems were pretty darn nice. Lots of gold content though (although I gather that's less true of the later systems - maybe this one's light enough on gold that the scrappers won't get it) * One of these: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850.html ... sadly all he had was the tape head assembly and a couple of cartridges, although the mechanism's pretty darn impressive. Would be nice to see a whole tape silo / robot assembly functioning, though :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 27 10:29:21 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:29:21 -0500 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070927101236.045268a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <014301c8011b$2d8a4400$6400a8c0@BILLING> Methinks Richard had a cut&paste error. I bet he was talking about the 290164849786 since that's the sellers only item. I noticed this yesterday. It's a 3278, not a 3279. I'd definitely want this, but $495 to ship... nah... Jay From jwest at ezwind.net Thu Sep 27 11:20:32 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:20:32 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/10 Message-ID: <028701c80122$5476d950$6400a8c0@BILLING> PDP-11/10 available. Please contact me off-list if interested. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 27 10:29:21 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:29:21 -0500 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070927101236.045268a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <014301c8011b$2d8a4400$6400a8c0@BILLING> Methinks Richard had a cut&paste error. I bet he was talking about the 290164849786 since that's the sellers only item. I noticed this yesterday. It's a 3278, not a 3279. I'd definitely want this, but $495 to ship... nah... Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 27 11:51:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:51:39 +0100 Subject: Duplicate list messages? Message-ID: <46FBDF9B.5060708@yahoo.co.uk> Is anyone else seeing duplicate messages every once in a while? I got two from Jay (about the IBM terminal) spaced 55 minutes apart but with otherwise identical content. I think there was a pair like this yesterday from someone, and two or three pairs last week. Looking at the headers of these latest two, there are differences in timing, and one of them references 'billy.ezwind.net' in connection with some Spam-Assassin lines, whereas the other doesn't. Yeah, I know this is really an off-list admin thing - I was just curious whether others had seen it happen too. (Jay, if it's useful and might be something happening at your end, I can try and save any more I see like this and see if there's any pattern to which ones it happens with... prod me off-list if needs be) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 27 11:56:16 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:56:16 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/10 References: <028701c80122$5476d950$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <02ad01c80127$5222e4f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Someone is already in line for the PDP-11/10 Note - the owner is definitely looking for a sale - not a giveaway. Jay From scrappylaptop at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 11:46:51 2007 From: scrappylaptop at yahoo.com (Scrappy Laptop) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: repairing really tiny traces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <712863.33686.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> If your friend is only looking for a functional repair (i.e. appearance is secondary), it is much easier to run a wire to the next component lead or via on either side of the break. Something like 35 to 42 AWG wire works and can be scavanged from a tiny speaker or the like. Radio Shack may even still carry 30AWG. 1 or 2 pound spools can be bought online, but what do you do with the other several thousand feet of wire? The insulation for this wire is typically enamel, so you'll need to scrape the tips before tinning, but a better way is to dip in acetone. Of course, if capacitance is an issue...then again, try the repair and test to see if data is corrupt, etc. This repair ends up looking like the post-design wires you often see on small-run pcb's if done nicely (i.e. route the wire between components, use dabs of hot melt glue to hold the corners in place). A nice hack and useful tool for doing such repairs that takes about 20 minutes to build and costs about $20 if your junkbox is empty: http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/07/how-to-make-a-surface-mount-soldering-iron/ Using this to do hot air reflow is much, much easier than trying to hand-hold even the finest of soldering irons if you don't have professional equipment at home...it provides just enough heat to melt low mp solder and applies it to a very small (2-3 mm) spot. On what kind of board are the broken traces? Can it be removed and shipped? -ScrappyLaptop David Griffith wrote: A friend of mine dropped a screwdriver into an open chassis and dinged two very tiny traces that are beyond his ability to fix. Is there someone in or around Portland, Oregon who could possibly fix this? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 27 12:52:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:52:36 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <02ad01c80127$5222e4f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <028701c80122$5476d950$6400a8c0@BILLING> <02ad01c80127$5222e4f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46FBEDE4.1040206@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > Someone is already in line for the PDP-11/10 > > Note - the owner is definitely looking for a sale - not a giveaway. > > Jay I think alot of people worry more about shipping. I do anyhow. So what is the going price for that type of system? Ben. From scheefj at netscape.net Thu Sep 27 13:00:36 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:00:36 -0400 Subject: IBM 3279 Terminal In-Reply-To: <46F809E8.2090003@gmail.com> References: <64387.36567.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <200709241357.11422.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46F809E8.2090003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46FBEFC4.3060205@netscape.net> Sridhar, The h-e-a-v-y one (all metal case) was the 3179. The 3279 has a plastic case and used to feel like it would fall apart when I would dope-slap it whenever the lighting bolts appeared in the status area at the bottom of the screen. A 3178 would take the slap with a thud that made your hand hurt. Jim Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Monday 24 September 2007, Chris M wrote: >>> is it color or green COUGH. If that's the model I'm >>> thinking of, it has a fair amount of peecee mobo stuff >>> inside. >> >> By the part number, it's a color terminal, and it's nothing like the >> later, smaller coax terminals... bigger, heavier, and probably built >> before the 8086 was released. > > The 3279 (for which I'm looking for a few clean examples, if I can > find them...) is so heavy that if one falls out of the back of a > truck, they'd have to replace the pavement. I have some sales docs > which mention desk strength requirements. The 3279 is a good bit > heavier than the 3278. > > Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 12:05:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:05:01 -0400 Subject: pdp 11 boot roms In-Reply-To: <001801c800b1$b91dabc0$6600a8c0@JWEST> References: <001801c800b1$b91dabc0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: On Sep 26, 2007, at 10:54 PM, Jay West wrote: > My semi-yearly reminder.... > > Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off > TMSCP TK50 & > TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 boot > roms for > rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". > > If you have it, I (and a few others) would love if I could borrow > it to make > an image. Is this not it? (Am I missing something?) http://www.koders.com/noncode/ fid5430B733F8815278811DA087D7331E72216E0CDB.aspx -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 27 11:56:16 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:56:16 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/10 References: <028701c80122$5476d950$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <02ad01c80127$5222e4f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Someone is already in line for the PDP-11/10 Note - the owner is definitely looking for a sale - not a giveaway. Jay From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 13:39:45 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:39:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <46FBEDE4.1040206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <028701c80122$5476d950$6400a8c0@BILLING> <02ad01c80127$5222e4f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> <46FBEDE4.1040206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <51ea77730709271139r6c906e41p9ab58acf0b589889@mail.gmail.com> On 9/27/07, woodelf wrote: > I think alot of people worry more about shipping. > I do anyhow. So what is the going price for that type of > system? Ben. And any idea how large it is? Just a BA23, or a whole rack of stuff? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 27 13:54:57 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:54:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 3850 / was Re: Amdahl 1015 on ebay References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FBC192.8090104@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46FBFC80.4688F461@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Anyone collect Amdahl stuff? > > I was talking to a chap the other day who came to drop off bits of an IBM 3850 > mass storage system*; he was ex-Amdahl and by the sounds of it some of their > systems were pretty darn nice. Lots of gold content though (although I gather > that's less true of the later systems - maybe this one's light enough on gold > that the scrappers won't get it) > > * One of these: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850.html > ... sadly all he had was the tape head assembly and a couple of cartridges, > although the mechanism's pretty darn impressive. Would be nice to see a whole > tape silo / robot assembly functioning, though :-) I recall seeing one of these in the 'cathedral'* at CERN around 1985. IIRC, one could look in the end of the unit and see what was like a long corridor with the honeycomb compartments filling both sides of the corridor and the robot mechanism in the middle (although I don't think I actually saw it move). (* The cathedral was the colloquial name of the main machine room for the computing division at CERN: an acre of raised floor filled with machines and open for several stories high (to assist with cooling I expect). Was quite impressive to walk into.) From ama at ugr.es Thu Sep 27 13:56:38 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:56:38 +0200 Subject: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC893.2040505@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20070927185638.GC12068@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 02:01:07PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Insert familiar lament here: All of the fun stuff is half a continent away. For me it's almost always at the other side of the pond. :( ?ngel -- Angel @ Granada, Spain PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Sep 27 13:59:05 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:59:05 -0700 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: References: <001801c800b1$b91dabc0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <46FBFD79.8070608@mindspring.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 26, 2007, at 10:54 PM, Jay West wrote: >> My semi-yearly reminder.... >> >> Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off TMSCP >> TK50 & >> TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 boot >> roms for >> rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". >> >> If you have it, I (and a few others) would love if I could borrow it >> to make >> an image. > > Is this not it? (Am I missing something?) > > http://www.koders.com/noncode/fid5430B733F8815278811DA087D7331E72216E0CDB.aspx > > > -Dave > One would think that this is it, but alas it is not :-( I did a download and disassemble, and it is just a copy of the DU (23-767A9) boot prom image. In fact, download both 23-767A9 and 23-E39A9 and compare them; they are EXACTLY the same image. I believe this happened because there is an image named 23-E39A9.hex/bin floating around various sites that actually is just 23-767A9 (DU, MSCP boot) renamed. FYI here is the suspect image disassembled: dec/m9312[847] hex2mac.pl --boot < 23-e39a9.hex .sbttl M9312 BOOT prom .asect .=173000 .ascii "UD" .word 000176 PUP0ND: sec PUP0D: mov #0,r0 BOOTSZ: mov #172150,r1 BOOTNZ: mov pc,r4 SECD: bcc L1 ; 000030 [.+10] br L2 ; 000034 [.+12] .word 173000 .word 000340 L1: jmp @#165564 L2: mov r0,(r1)+ mov #4000,r5 mov pc,r3 bpl L3 ; 000046 [.+2] L3: blt L4 ; 000060 [.+12] halt .word 000001 .word 000011 .word 001041 L4: tst (r1) bmi BOOTSZ ; 000012 [.-50] bit (r1),r5 beq L4 ; 000060 [.-6] mov (r3)+,(r1) asl r5 bpl L4 ; 000060 [.-14] L7: clr r2 L5: clr (r2)+ cmp r2,#2404 bne L5 ; 000100 [.-6] mov r2,@#1064 movb (r3)+,@#1100 movb (r3),@#1105 mov r0,@#1074 mov #1004,(r2)+ mov r5,(r2)+ mov #1070,(r2)+ mov r5,(r2)+ mov 177776(r1),r2 L6: tst @#2406 bmi L6 ; 000150 [.-4] tstb @#1016 bne BOOTSZ ; 000012 [.-150] tstb (r3)+ beq L7 ; 000076 [.-70] clr -(r1) clr pc halt .word 032074 .end From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:10:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:10:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP integral , 82297a In-Reply-To: <46FA9E5D.31620.BBFD1D4@localhost> from "Stan Sieler" at Sep 26, 7 06:01:01 pm Message-ID: > > Re: > > > I seem to rember that people on this list ( Tony ?) have extended a > > 512K memory expansion for the HP integral. > > HP made an external memory expansion box for the Integral. I've not heard of that one, can you decribe it, please. What I have heard of is a generic expansion box for the Integral. It seems to bave been a typical HP 'shoebox' form factor, and linked to the Integral via a 64 way cable and a card that went into one of the Integral expansion slots. The expaonsion box had 5 slots for Integral cards (so you gained 4 slots by using it), you could connect one to each of the Integral's internal expansion slots, but you couldn't hang one expansion box off another. I think I read somewhere that du to possible delays in the buffer circuitry in the epansion boc, the DTACK/ signal from add-on cards there was delayed a bit. Putting memory cards in the expansion box would work, but would slow the machine down a bit, if at all possible put them in the main machine. > I have one, and I've seen two or three others. Unfortunately, > it takes a special cable to connect the Integral to the expansion box, > and (IIRC) I don't have one. My Integral came with the card to link to an expansion box, but alas no expanison box iteslf. The connector on the card is a 64 pin Microribbon sicket, like a large Centronics connector, and I can find nowhere that sells the plugs (this connector was used on some other HP devices, but I've never seen it anywhere eise). Incidentally, I am _still_ looking for a serial card for my Integral. Those things seem to be rarer than hen's teeth! -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 27 15:17:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:17:12 -0600 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:26:35 -0400. <5.1.0.14.2.20070927101236.045268a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: In article <5.1.0.14.2.20070927101236.045268a0 at mail.30below.com>, Roger Merchberger writes: > Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: > >ebay item # 142391 > > > >Unfortunately the seller is in Oman with 0 feedback rating. > > > >Good luck on that one! > > Either ePay's business has gone downhill quick, or that's one *very* old=20 > auction! ;-) Sorry, incorrectly pasted item #! Its item # 290164849786 > for a "bubblevision" 3278-2 terminal... looks like it's sold by the same=20 > individual that you are speaking of, tho! Yes, and apparently I even got the model number wrong. Sigh. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 27 15:17:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:17:56 -0600 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:29:21 -0500. <014301c8011b$2d8a4400$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <014301c8011b$2d8a4400$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > I noticed this yesterday. It's a 3278, not a 3279. I'd definitely want this, > but $495 to ship... nah... For what its worth, its the only 327x terminal I've seen offered on ebay in the last several years. These things aren't exactly common. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 27 15:14:59 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:14:59 -0400 Subject: IBM 3850 / was Re: Amdahl 1015 on ebay In-Reply-To: <46FBFC80.4688F461@cs.ubc.ca> References: <980942.89644.qm@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FBC192.8090104@yahoo.co.uk> <46FBFC80.4688F461@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200709271614.59210.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 27 September 2007 14:54, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I recall seeing one of these in the 'cathedral'* at CERN around 1985. IIRC, > one could look in the end of the unit and see what was like a long corridor > with the honeycomb compartments filling both sides of the corridor and the > robot mechanism in the middle (although I don't think I actually saw it > move). > > (* The cathedral was the colloquial name of the main machine room for the > computing division at CERN: an acre of raised floor filled with machines > and open for several stories high (to assist with cooling I expect). Was > quite impressive to walk into.) Hm, I wonder if there's any connection between that and ESR's use of that term? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 15:20:43 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:20:43 -0400 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: <46FBFD79.8070608@mindspring.com> References: <001801c800b1$b91dabc0$6600a8c0@JWEST> <46FBFD79.8070608@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2007, at 2:59 PM, Don North wrote: >>> My semi-yearly reminder.... >>> >>> Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off >>> TMSCP TK50 & >>> TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 boot >>> roms for >>> rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". >>> >>> If you have it, I (and a few others) would love if I could borrow >>> it to make >>> an image. >> >> Is this not it? (Am I missing something?) >> >> http://www.koders.com/noncode/ >> fid5430B733F8815278811DA087D7331E72216E0CDB.aspx > > One would think that this is it, but alas it is not :-( > > I did a download and disassemble, and it is just a copy of the DU > (23-767A9) boot prom image. > > In fact, download both 23-767A9 and 23-E39A9 and compare them; they > are EXACTLY the same image. > > I believe this happened because there is an image named 23- > E39A9.hex/bin floating around > various sites that actually is just 23-767A9 (DU, MSCP boot) renamed. Crap. Source code to that ROM has to be around somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Sep 27 15:44:49 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:44:49 -0700 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: References: <001801c800b1$b91dabc0$6600a8c0@JWEST> <46FBFD79.8070608@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <46FC1641.6000500@mindspring.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 27, 2007, at 2:59 PM, Don North wrote: >>>> My semi-yearly reminder.... >>>> >>>> Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off >>>> TMSCP TK50 & >>>> TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 boot >>>> roms for >>>> rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". >>>> >>>> If you have it, I (and a few others) would love if I could borrow >>>> it to make >>>> an image. >>> >>> Is this not it? (Am I missing something?) >>> >>> http://www.koders.com/noncode/fid5430B733F8815278811DA087D7331E72216E0CDB.aspx >>> >> >> One would think that this is it, but alas it is not :-( >> >> I did a download and disassemble, and it is just a copy of the DU >> (23-767A9) boot prom image. >> >> In fact, download both 23-767A9 and 23-E39A9 and compare them; they >> are EXACTLY the same image. >> >> I believe this happened because there is an image named >> 23-E39A9.hex/bin floating around >> various sites that actually is just 23-767A9 (DU, MSCP boot) renamed. > > Crap. > > Source code to that ROM has to be around somewhere. > > -Dave > I dunno, I think it was saved on /dev/null from all that I can tell. Even if a binary exists it is easy enough to disassemble and recreate a source. I have a version that I have recreated (from the logic in the SIMH TMSCP driver boot code) but the smallest I can get it down to is 5 words too large for the available ROM space :-( and even then I had to cheat a little bit to get it that small. I'm *really* interested to see what tricks DEC played to implement the real TMSCP boot PROM for the M9312. The MSCP PROM source is available and they did some really groady (cool) hacks (depends on your point of view) to use words as both instructions and data. Don From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 27 15:54:54 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:54:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Duplicate list messages? In-Reply-To: <46FBDF9B.5060708@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <659137.27924.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yeah, i got 2 today (both from Jay) that were identical. Not sure whether they arrived together or not. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Jules Richardson wrote: Is anyone else seeing duplicate messages every once in a while? I got two from Jay (about the IBM terminal) spaced 55 minutes apart but with otherwise identical content. I think there was a pair like this yesterday from someone, and two or three pairs last week. Looking at the headers of these latest two, there are differences in timing, and one of them references 'billy.ezwind.net' in connection with some Spam-Assassin lines, whereas the other doesn't. Yeah, I know this is really an off-list admin thing - I was just curious whether others had seen it happen too. (Jay, if it's useful and might be something happening at your end, I can try and save any more I see like this and see if there's any pattern to which ones it happens with... prod me off-list if needs be) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 27 16:10:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:10:15 +0100 Subject: Duplicate list messages? In-Reply-To: <659137.27924.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <659137.27924.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FC1C37.6040602@yahoo.co.uk> Andrew Burton wrote: > Yeah, i got 2 today (both from Jay) that were identical. Not sure whether > they arrived together or not. Ahh, not just me then (Richard just prodded me off-list too). Glitch in the matrix or something. It's not a big deal, I was just wondering whether I should be starting to worry about the integrity of my mail store - seems like the problem's somewhere upstream though. Are you not posting via the Dreamcast* any more by the way? (either that or Thunderbird's decided not to do strange things with font rendering for your messages any more! :-) * It was a Dreamcast, wasn't it? Definitely something a little "unconventional", anyway! cheers Jules From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Sep 27 16:38:45 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:38:45 +0200 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: <46FC1641.6000500@mindspring.com> References: <001801c800b1$b91dabc0$6600a8c0@JWEST> <46FBFD79.8070608@mindspring.com> <46FC1641.6000500@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20070927233845.71ff9aed@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:44:49 -0700 Don North wrote: > they did some really groady (cool) hacks (depends on your point > of view) to use words as both instructions and data. Maybe it was written by Mel, The Real Programmer? ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 27 16:46:36 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:46:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Duplicate list messages? In-Reply-To: <46FC1C37.6040602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <850843.26593.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I used to post using my Dreamcast until around Jan/Feb this year. The SSL certificate on the browser software expired and I was forced into getting a laptop (which turned into a good move after my A600's went down, as I am now emulating my Amiga's and archiving the AMOS-LIST Yahoo! group messages (all 8300!) on my harddrive before tidying them up and uploading them to Aminet), since the Dreamcast didn't have a harddrive :( It has an extension socket round the back, but nothing ever used it to my knowledge - I even have the Karaoke unit that was released in Japan and sits under the DC, but it doesn't use the extension socket. Better stop yapping about it, as it's only 8 years old (Japanese release in 1999, IIRC) and ergo off topic for now. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Jules Richardson wrote: Andrew Burton wrote: > Yeah, i got 2 today (both from Jay) that were identical. Not sure whether > they arrived together or not. Ahh, not just me then (Richard just prodded me off-list too). Glitch in the matrix or something. It's not a big deal, I was just wondering whether I should be starting to worry about the integrity of my mail store - seems like the problem's somewhere upstream though. Are you not posting via the Dreamcast* any more by the way? (either that or Thunderbird's decided not to do strange things with font rendering for your messages any more! :-) * It was a Dreamcast, wasn't it? Definitely something a little "unconventional", anyway! cheers Jules From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Sep 27 16:50:35 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:50:35 -0600 Subject: calcomp 8" drive motors available In-Reply-To: <200709270304.l8R34nwD094858@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709270304.l8R34nwD094858@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46FC25AB.7040906@rogerwilco.org> Chuck wrote: > On 26 Sep 2007 at 17:13, Richard wrote: > > > > > > In article <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, > > > "Jay West" writes: > > > > >> > > > Two drive motors from Calcomp 8" floppy drives are available. >> > > > > > > Calcomp made floppies?!?! I thought they just made plotters! > > Nope--my first drives were Calcomp 104's. Miserable things. I > believe they were also the stock drive for the Imsai 8080 floppy box. I just finished resurrecting an old PDP-11/03, racked in some old-timer, 1950s-style radio gear cabinet that looks like it came right out of an old NWS monitoring station. Anyway, the system has two RX01 subsystems. As I disassembled everything for thorough cleaning, I, like Richard, was a little surprised to see that one drive of each RX01 pair was really a CalComp drive. In both cases the mate was a DEC branded drive. The construction of CalComp and the mated DEC drives are essentially identical, with only a few minor changes to some of the plastic parts. I wonder if the CalComp line was actually acquired by DEC (or vice-versa?). These RX01s both date from 1978. - Jared From useddec at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 17:36:38 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:36:38 -0500 Subject: calcomp 8" drive motors available In-Reply-To: <46FC25AB.7040906@rogerwilco.org> References: <200709270304.l8R34nwD094858@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46FC25AB.7040906@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <624966d60709271536g2d24ff88hce26f222f3d84fa9@mail.gmail.com> The Calcomp drives had a cast aluminum frame, while the dec drives are made from sheets. The DEC RX02 can be used as an 01 or a 02, while the Calcomp was designed to be an 01 only. Some of the earlier DEC drives were stamped "RX01 only." On 9/27/07, J Blaser wrote: > > Chuck wrote: > On 26 Sep 2007 at 17:13, Richard wrote: > > > > > > > > > In article <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, > > > > "Jay West" writes: > > > > > > > >> > > > Two drive motors from Calcomp 8" floppy drives are available. > >> > > > > > > > > Calcomp made floppies?!?! I thought they just made plotters! > > > > > Nope--my first drives were Calcomp 104's. Miserable things. I > > believe they were also the stock drive for the Imsai 8080 floppy box. > > > I just finished resurrecting an old PDP-11/03, racked in some > old-timer, 1950s-style radio gear cabinet that looks like it > came right out of an old NWS monitoring station. Anyway, the > system has two RX01 subsystems. > > As I disassembled everything for thorough cleaning, I, like > Richard, was a little surprised to see that one drive of each > RX01 pair was really a CalComp drive. In both cases the mate > was a DEC branded drive. > > The construction of CalComp and the mated DEC drives are > essentially identical, with only a few minor changes to some > of the plastic parts. I wonder if the CalComp line was actually > acquired by DEC (or vice-versa?). These RX01s both date from > 1978. > > - Jared > > > > From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 27 17:50:26 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:50:26 -0400 Subject: calcomp 8" drive motors available In-Reply-To: <624966d60709271536g2d24ff88hce26f222f3d84fa9@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709270304.l8R34nwD094858@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46FC25AB.7040906@rogerwilco.org> <624966d60709271536g2d24ff88hce26f222f3d84fa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709271850.27182.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 27 September 2007 18:36, Paul Anderson wrote: > The Calcomp drives had a cast aluminum frame, while the dec drives are made > from sheets. The DEC RX02 can be used as an 01 or a 02, while the Calcomp > was designed to be an 01 only. Some of the earlier DEC drives were stamped > "RX01 only." Back in early 1978 was the first time I'd gotten my hands on any sort of a real working computer... The company I worked for at that time bought a Heathkit H11, and I got to put it together. :-) Initially, all we had for storage was paper tape, which was great fun -- a power glitch, and you had to start all over again, typing in the boot loader sequence, loading the absolute loader tape, then the BASIC tape, then (if you were lucky enough to have saved something of what you were working on), your saved program. Later on they got a disk drive, I'm pretty sure a Digital of one flavor or another. It ran RT-11, I think version 2. In my initial floundering around one of the things I was playing with was a rather crude database, so they could justify the machine. Data being stored in the form of character strings, and the software being written in BASIC. A big mistake on my part was trying to take a simple sort (bubble sort?) that would work on an array of stuff in memory, and to try and make that work with a disk file. That was the only time I've ever seen TO-220 cased transistors actually melt down, after I went home and left the program running... :-) > On 9/27/07, J Blaser wrote: > > Chuck wrote: > On 26 Sep 2007 at 17:13, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article <000f01c8008d$38c89f80$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, > > > > > > > > > > "Jay West" writes: > > >> > > > Two drive motors from Calcomp 8" floppy drives are available. > > > > > > > > > > Calcomp made floppies?!?! I thought they just made plotters! > > > > > > Nope--my first drives were Calcomp 104's. Miserable things. I > > > believe they were also the stock drive for the Imsai 8080 floppy box. > > > > I just finished resurrecting an old PDP-11/03, racked in some > > old-timer, 1950s-style radio gear cabinet that looks like it > > came right out of an old NWS monitoring station. Anyway, the > > system has two RX01 subsystems. > > > > As I disassembled everything for thorough cleaning, I, like > > Richard, was a little surprised to see that one drive of each > > RX01 pair was really a CalComp drive. In both cases the mate > > was a DEC branded drive. > > > > The construction of CalComp and the mated DEC drives are > > essentially identical, with only a few minor changes to some > > of the plastic parts. I wonder if the CalComp line was actually > > acquired by DEC (or vice-versa?). These RX01s both date from > > 1978. > > > > - Jared -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 18:51:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:51:44 -0700 Subject: calcomp 8" drive motors available In-Reply-To: <46FC25AB.7040906@rogerwilco.org> References: <200709270304.l8R34nwD094858@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46FC25AB.7040906@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <46FBDFA0.7393.4D62066B@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Sep 2007 at 15:50, J Blaser wrote: > The construction of CalComp and the mated DEC drives are > essentially identical, with only a few minor changes to some > of the plastic parts. I wonder if the CalComp line was actually > acquired by DEC (or vice-versa?). These RX01s both date from > 1978. Calcomp used to be a major player in the hard drive and tape peripheral business before they did floppies. They had a line of S/360 compatible products from tapes to 2314-type hard drives (from their acquisition of Century Data Systems). Calcomp was one of the minor players that filed suit against IBM for unfair trade practices in the early 70's (see: Telex, Control Data) but lost after a very messy legal battle. In 1980, Sanders bought Calcomp after a very bitter proxy battle. Lockheed bought Sanders in 1986, and hence, Calcomp. Around 1999, the company was split into several smaller units and sold off. Calcomp also purchased, IIRC Summagraphics and Houston Instruments somewhere along the way. Those Calcomp floppies can also be found in old HP equipment. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 19:31:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:31:31 -0700 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator Message-ID: <46FBE8F3.19895.4D867219@cclist.sydex.com> Has anyone tried Toshiya Takeda's Epson QX-10 emulator at http://www1.interq.or.jp/~t-takeda/top.html ? >From what I can gather, one needs at least the boot rom image to get the thing to run. Anyone know where I can get one? Cheers, Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Sep 27 20:33:54 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:33:54 -0700 Subject: ALERT, WA State: Boeing Surplus Closing... Message-ID: <200709271833540838.28FD3F5C@192.168.42.129> This is directed primarily at those in or near the Puget Sound region. Fellow techies, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I have learned that Boeing Surplus's retail store will be closing permanently at the end of this year. The last day for retail operations will be Friday, December 21st. This decision was revealed to the employees on July 13th. Boeing has, for unknown reasons, made no apparent effort to publicize it. The news left me in shock when I first heard. Boeing's been operating that store for at least 30 years, and it has become something of a local icon for the region. I have spoken with some contacts I still have inside the company, and have been told that the "official" word is that it was costing more to run the store than it was bringing in. I'm not at all certain I believe this -- If true, I think it would have happened a lot earlier on, and certainly with more frequency. The surplus store is cyclical, just like the manufacturing side, and I don't see how its possible that they could run into a perpetual downward trend. The excuse was also made that the volume and variety of equipment going through the retail level was falling too far off to justify maintaining the store. There is, to my mind, a simple answer for that -- Simply route more equipment through retail, rather than selling it off in bulk to the big-dollar wholesalers! This is especially true where test gear is concerned. In short: I don't believe that this is a smart move by Boeing. Quite the contrary! I think it's the dumbest stunt they've pulled since selling off their commercial avionics unit to BAE.They have a very loyal customer base, and a large core of 'regulars' for the surplus store, myself included, and I for one do not intend to let this issue simply die off without a fight. If you agree, and you want to make your voice heard on this issue, I ask that you do two things. (1) SPREAD THE WORD!!!! I have no clue why Boeing hasn't made this more public, but my speculation is that they know, full well, how loyal a following the store has and they're trying to avoid a public backlash. If that is the case, I would like nothing better than to see that plan backfire! (2) Make a POLITE contact with the office of Mr. Tim Copes, president of Boeing's Shared Services Group (they're in charge of all surplus programs, companywide), and ask that the decision to close the store be reversed. Mr. Copes' office can be contacted at: (425) 865-7501 If you wish to mail a letter, you can do so to this address: Mr. Tim Copes Boeing Shared Services Group Mailstop 6R7-01 PO Box 3707 Seattle, WA 98124 Will it work, if enough noise is made? Who knows? Honestly, I don't think there's much chance of saving the current store in its current form, given the time it has left. HOWEVER -- If enough voices are raised, it may convince the company to provide a meaningful alternative, or perhaps even open another store down the road a stretch. Thanks for reading. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Sep 27 20:42:57 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:42:57 -0500 Subject: TI-99/4A Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46FC5C21.2020209@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > How well has TI-99/4A software on floppies been preserved? We just > received a very large donation. As part of the donation is what appears > to be a complete TI-99/4A system complete with the expansion box, and a > couple other expansions. There is documentation for at least some of > the hardware and software. TI software on floppies is uncommon; most TI owners I knew at the time did carts and cassette only. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Sep 27 21:29:53 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:29:53 +0100 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com>, <46F8D984.31603.41922C62@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070925130402.04e51db8@mail.30below.com> <46F8E744.19769.41C7E209@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <004c01c80177$74066010$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....My hard disk was an OMTI SCSI-to-RLL converter board with >another homebrew board piggybacked on to it to accommodate >signal differences between SCSI and ACSI.... The silly thing though, is, that the original Atari ST hard drive (the SH-204) was just such an arrangement! I forget the make of the SCSI-MFM controller card, but it was a pretty common one back then (Future Domain?) and had a little interface converter board attached to it's SCSI connector to allow it to speak ASCI.... The obvious question is WTF didn't they just put "normal" SCSI on the ST? Never could figure that one out, but then again this is Atari we're talking about...? :-) TTFN - Pete. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 27 22:26:33 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:26:33 -0700 Subject: TI-99/4A Floppies In-Reply-To: <46FC5C21.2020209@oldskool.org> References: <46FC5C21.2020209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: At 8:42 PM -0500 9/27/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>How well has TI-99/4A software on floppies been preserved? We just >>received a very large donation. As part of the donation is what >>appears to be a complete TI-99/4A system complete with the >>expansion box, and a couple other expansions. There is >>documentation for at least some of the hardware and software. > >TI software on floppies is uncommon; most TI owners I knew at the >time did carts and cassette only. This is rather what I suspected. I'm looking for any advice on preserving what is still readable and transferring it to CD. I've never messed with a TI with floppies, and have only powered on one of my TI's once or twice. I did some googling tonight and see some floppies have been archived, but I suspect we have a *LOT* more than what I was able to turn up on the web. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 23:03:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:03:10 -0700 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <004c01c80177$74066010$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com>, <004c01c80177$74066010$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46FC1A8E.395.4E4837CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2007 at 3:29, Ensor wrote: >> The obvious question is WTF didn't they just put "normal" SCSI on the ST? > Never could figure that one out, but then again this is Atari we're talking > about...? :-) Oh, there was a lot of WTF on the ST. For example, why did the 400 and 800 have pretty decent keyboards, yet the more-expensive-and- powerful ST have such an abomination for a keyboard? I added springs to the keyboard to make it halfway operable, but I hated it every second I had to use it. The software was pretty good. Did you ever use Magic Sac to emulate a Mac? That was a pretty neat idea. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Sep 27 23:45:07 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:45:07 -0400 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <46FC1A8E.395.4E4837CD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004c01c80177$74066010$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20070925101941.012cb740@mail.30below.com> <004c01c80177$74066010$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070928003046.06362228@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 28 Sep 2007 at 3:29, Ensor wrote: > > >> The obvious question is WTF didn't they just put "normal" SCSI on >the ST? > > Never could figure that one out, but then again this is Atari we're > talking > > about...? :-) > >Oh, there was a lot of WTF on the ST. For example, why did the 400 >and 800 have pretty decent keyboards, The *original* Atari 400? You must be joking, right? I had *microwave ovens* with better keyboards than a 400! ;-) About the only worse keyboards I can think of was either on the original Timex Sinclair 1000, or possibly Tandy's MC-10. > yet the more-expensive-and- >powerful ST have such an abomination for a keyboard? For keyboards, I'd put it "middle of the road." It was better than the chicklet keyboards of the CoCo1, prolly equalish (to maybe "barely better") than the "not quite full travel" keyboard of the CoCo2, but not as nice as the CoCo3 keyboards... and (obviously) no comparison whatsoever to the my IBM Model M or the keyboard on my Tandy 200 lappytop. But to pay $600 base (still about a grand, nicely equipped, IIRC) for a computer that could spank a $2500 Mac... you'd need to make a few sacrifices. I would have to say that IMHO, with the angled function buttons & sleek lines, it was the most artistic (read: kewl) keyboard of the era... not that it helps functionality at all... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 28 00:11:38 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:11:38 -0500 Subject: test, please ignore Message-ID: <061d01c8018e$0cd2bb20$6600a8c0@JWEST> Test message - messing with classiccmp mail server anti-abuse stuff. No response necessary. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 28 00:12:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:12:18 -0700 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070928003046.06362228@mail.30below.com> References: <004c01c80177$74066010$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <46FC1A8E.395.4E4837CD@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070928003046.06362228@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <46FC2AC2.22423.4E877F4E@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2007 at 0:45, Roger Merchberger wrote: > The *original* Atari 400? You must be joking, right? I had *microwave > ovens* with better keyboards than a 400! ;-) About the only worse keyboards > I can think of was either on the original Timex Sinclair 1000, or possibly > Tandy's MC-10. LOL--it was the 800 that I had in mind. Not the "kiddie komputer 400". > I would have to say that IMHO, with the angled function buttons & sleek > lines, it was the most artistic (read: kewl) keyboard of the era... not > that it helps functionality at all... ;-) Kewl it may have been, but it really was pretty miserable (ergonomically speaking). Maybe if it had been purple or something... The software was the best part. I enjoyed programming it very much-- just wished that Atari had made a "step up" version with a real keyboard at the same time. The TT came along too late--the PeeCee and Mac had grabbed the big market share and I was frying other fish. And I've never even seen an ATW, in spite of living more-or-less "around the corner" from Atari. That's a system I wouldn't mind collecting, if I were a collector. Cheers, Chuck From erik at baigar.de Fri Sep 28 00:32:44 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:32:44 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Sellam Ismail, I have got a 1039 plotter which I got from a engineering company years ago. They used it in the 90ies with DOS based software and they had certain libraries (I think it was fortran) from Calcomp to use the plotter. These libraries contained commands for e.g. drawing mathematial diagrams, characters and so on. Maybe I somewhere have got the documentation (a few pages) listing the commands which are implemented in the library. Is this the kind of stuff you are looking for? What type of plotter do you have got? Has this one got a digital interface (like e.g. PCI907 or PCI906)? Do you have got any application software on your 1620? Best regards, Erik. > The IBM 1620 Restoration Team at the Computer History Museum needs a copy > for a project they are working on to interface a CalComp plotter to the > 1620. > > If you've got a copy you can provide (all they need is a photocopy or > scan) please contact Dave Babcock . > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Sep 28 00:33:11 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:33:11 +0200 Subject: HP integral , 82297a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46FC9217.20701@bluewin.ch> een it anywhere eise). > > Incidentally, I am _still_ looking for a serial card for my Integral. > Those things seem to be rarer than hen's teeth! Both my Integrals had one.... It really is a simple circuit on a dual layer PCB. I'm sure that you could easiliy reconstruct one if you whish so. I can provide a scan of the board. Jos From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Sep 28 00:40:01 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:40:01 +0200 Subject: Lilith success ! Message-ID: <46FC93B1.7090806@bluewin.ch> I have finally managed to extract the contents of my one remaining usable disk for the ETH Lilith. WIth this upper layer programs and the micrcode stuff I extracted earlier a Lilith emulator should become possible. Sadly the Lara wordprocessor resided on a bad spot on the disk and could not be rescued. I had to use Kermit on a 9600 baud serial line, this 5 MB took forever, certainly if you forget to set file type to binary and have to restart everything.... Jos From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu Sep 27 09:53:58 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 08:53:58 -0600 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070927101236.045268a0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070927101236.045268a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <9BBBEDC2-6FF1-443B-98A3-B5C2A1C12F4A@comcast.net> On Sep 27, 2007, at 8:26 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > $50 opening bid, and *only* $475 to ship it to the US! Whaddadeal! Talk about high risk! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 28 06:45:25 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:45:25 -0700 Subject: Lilith success ! Message-ID: <0B4DEDED-B7D7-4E7F-ABC5-DD52C01FD19E@bitsavers.org> > I have finally managed to extract the contents of my one remaining > usable disk for the ETH Lilith. That's wonderful news! I was able to locate the sources for the Modula-2 release that was distributed in 1981, which appears to have a Lilith back end. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Sep 28 08:23:14 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:23:14 -0400 Subject: 9-track tape seal lifetime Message-ID: <46FCC8020200003700012EB3@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Al made a comment about looking for Wright Line tape seals. A story of mine: In the 90's I got to spend a lot of time sitting in tape libraries filled with tens of thousands of tapes hanging on racks from the hook on the tape seal. During a typical stretch (say 8 hours nominal) one or two tape seals would break and the tape would get dumped to the floor. Sometimes the seal would break in response to some kind of vibration in the room (after all, there were several tape drives getting loaded/unloaded etc. as well as me rummaging through the racks looking for tapes) but other times they seemed to break with absolutely no reason. Sometimes the black plastic hanger would break but more typically the white plastic seal would break near the hanger. I'd say from this that out of a library of 30,000 tapes with several tape seals breaking every day, that the expected MTBF of those Wright-line tape seal is probably 30 years. That's not necessarily the same as lifetime. As the plasticizers dry out I'd expect them to break more often. Sunlight and ozone+ heat can really do a doozy on plastics. The hard-plastic IBM tape seals seemed to be very much more vulnerable to breaking in transport than the Wright lines, and they'd also occasionally fail just hanging there on the tape rack, but I'm reluctant to make any statistical statements about them because so many were obviously broken in transport. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 28 08:30:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:30:53 -0600 Subject: Lilith success ! In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:40:01 +0200. <46FC93B1.7090806@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <46FC93B1.7090806 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > I have finally managed to extract the contents of my one remaining > usable disk for the ETH Lilith. Sweet! I haven't had time yet to image my Eve disks or even inventory all the cards that I have (3 Eves functional; 1 Eve w/spare cards) > WIth this upper layer programs and the micrcode stuff I extracted > earlier a Lilith emulator should become possible. > Sadly the Lara wordprocessor resided on a bad spot on the disk and could > not be rescued. This might be on the disks I have; I simply don't know at this point. I can even risk booting the system since I don't have a keyboard/display that will work with this system yet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From erik at baigar.de Fri Sep 28 10:38:39 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:38:39 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: <000501c80192$e5f5bfc0$1501a8c0@DaVinci> Message-ID: Hi Dave, thanks for your email. Given this information, I think my stuff is not of use for your project... > We have an IBM 1627 plotter which is really just a private-labelled CalComp > 565 plotter. It has a 220mm width plot area and uses presurized ball point > pens. Yes, this is an early ancestor of the 1038/1039 I have got up and running. > We have the schematics for the IBM controller, but don't have one. We'll > need to build our own to connect between the IBM 1620 computer and the > plotter. I do not know the details on this, but maybe it is easier to rip an other plotter using stepper motors and connect the clock and direction signals to the 565 directly. There should be quite a lot plotter out there suitable for this. What kind of processor does the IBM controller use? In somewhat later Calcomp plotters (as mine from 1972) a OPC (online plotter controller) was included. The original Calcomp PCB contains a 6800 processor which interprets signals from a RS232C interface. This PCB generates the signals needed to drive the plotter (i.e. step and direction pulses). Since this OPC was optional it might be easier to obtain than the IBM part? Maybe they are identical? For the Calcomp OPC I have got schematics and ROM dumps. It has the same name as the language it understands "PCI906" and of course includes a character generator... > The information we are looking for is: 1) detailed descriptions of the > CalComp HCBS [basic plot] library; 2) the algorithms used by CalComp to > implement the plotting functions; and 3) the vector character font data > that CalComp used. Sorry, I do not have anything of the mentioned... > We have no application programs for the IBM 1620 that do plotting [although > we have 200,000 punched cards of programs and data]. We'll be writing the > demo application in addtion to the basic plot library. That sounds great - I wish you the very best for this project, best regards, Erik. > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Baigar [mailto:erik at baigar.de] > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:33 PM > To: Sellam Ismail > Cc: Classic Computers Mailing List; dave at kaleidosoft.com; Erik Baigar > Subject: Re: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" > book > > > Dear Sellam Ismail, > > I have got a 1039 plotter which I got from a engineering company years ago. > They used it in the 90ies with DOS based software and they had certain > libraries (I think it was fortran) from Calcomp to use the plotter. These > libraries contained commands for e.g. drawing mathematial diagrams, > characters and so on. > > Maybe I somewhere have got the documentation (a few > pages) listing the commands which are implemented in the library. > > Is this the kind of stuff you are looking for? What type of plotter do you > have got? Has this one got a digital interface (like e.g. PCI907 or PCI906)? > > Do you have got any application software on your 1620? > > Best regards, > > Erik. > > > > The IBM 1620 Restoration Team at the Computer History Museum needs a > > copy for a project they are working on to interface a CalComp plotter > > to the 1620. > > > > If you've got a copy you can provide (all they need is a photocopy or > > scan) please contact Dave Babcock . > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 28 15:01:29 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: repairing really tiny traces In-Reply-To: <712863.33686.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <712863.33686.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Scrappy Laptop wrote: > A nice hack and useful tool for doing such repairs that takes about 20 > minutes to build and costs about $20 if your junkbox is empty: > http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/07/how-to-make-a-surface-mount-soldering-iron/ > Using this to do hot air reflow is much, much easier than trying to > hand-hold even the finest of soldering irons if you don't have > professional equipment at home...it provides just enough heat to melt > low mp solder and applies it to a very small (2-3 mm) spot. I'll have to make one of those. I happen to have one of those desoldering irons. > On what kind of board are the broken traces? Can it be removed and > shipped? It's the mainboard of a Macintosh G5 dual. Appearance really isn't an issue as the board will be concealed anyhow. Since I now know that he's watching, let's see if he'll chime in on what needs to be done. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Sep 28 15:28:23 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:28:23 +0100 Subject: repairing really tiny traces In-Reply-To: References: <712863.33686.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FD63E7.9090500@philpem.me.uk> David Griffith wrote: > It's the mainboard of a Macintosh G5 dual. Appearance really isn't an > issue as the board will be concealed anyhow. Since I now know that he's > watching, let's see if he'll chime in on what needs to be done. I did some trace repair work on an Acorn A3000 after it befell a similar fate. I was modifying an internal mounting post so I could fit a DIN connector to the side panel (why, for the I2C bus of course) and slipped. The file ripped up three tracks on the top of the board and made a rather large gouge in the fibreglass PCB... Took nearly two hours to repair, including repairing the PCB substrate itself, waiting for the Araldite to dry, soldering in patch-wires, repairing a damaged via, and testing the thing. After I finished, I used an Electrolube "CPL" pen to put a coat of protective lacquer over the repair (utterly pointless in hindsight, but I did it anyway). IIRC I used individual copper strands from a piece of speaker cable, tinned, then soldered to the (tinned) ends of the broken PCB track. Where there was any question as to the future reliability of a solder joint, it was coated in rosin flux then reheated. Said A3000 still works to this day... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 28 15:42:02 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: repairing really tiny traces In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 28, 2007 01:01:29 PM Message-ID: <200709282042.l8SKg2sQ007028@onyx.spiritone.com> > It's the mainboard of a Macintosh G5 dual. Appearance really isn't an > issue as the board will be concealed anyhow. Since I now know that he's > watching, let's see if he'll chime in on what needs to be done. Ouch, I'm pretty sure there aren't any Mac places in Portland that can do the work. I'd recommends he gives Norvac Electronics a call and see if they can suggest anyone that can do the work. There are a few list members in the area, but I already know I wouldn't want to trust my skills on something that small. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 28 16:44:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:44:18 -0700 Subject: repairing really tiny traces In-Reply-To: References: <712863.33686.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <46FD1342.28540.5213B75B@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2007 at 13:01, David Griffith wrote: > It's the mainboard of a Macintosh G5 dual. Appearance really isn't an > issue as the board will be concealed anyhow. Since I now know that he's > watching, let's see if he'll chime in on what needs to be done. That's small. I wouldn't touch the repair with a soldering iron, myself. I'd use a micro-tip silver-dispensig pen (e.g. Chemtronics CW2200MTP) to fix the trace, then apply an overcoat to it for protection (e.g. Chemtronics CW3300G). I've had good luck with these and a binocular loupe (an inspection microscope would also be good). FWIW, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Sep 28 16:51:22 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:51:22 -0400 Subject: Hardware controller to emulate Ersatz-11's HD: Message-ID: <46FD775A.2060409@compsys.to> This request is actually more than on topic since the software in question was written in 1995. Specifically, John Wilson wrote HD.MAC in 1995 as a temporary substitute for DU(X).SYS to use large (up to 32 MB) disk drives under Ersatz-11. Being a bit of an RT-11 nut (OK a lot of an RT-11 nut, addict), I finally enhanced HDX.SYS to use 22 bit addresses under the Qbus so that I could replace VMX.SYS after I noticed that using HDX.SYS was so much faster than both VMX.SYS (3 times as fast) and DUX.SYS (twice as fast). PLUS, my minimum version of the LOADed code for HDX.SYS is smaller than VMX.SYS, supports a full 65536 block RT-11 partition (sort of obvious vs less than 8192 blocks for VM: on the PDP-11) and also supports the commands: SET HD: NAME (allows an RT-11 user to COPY HD.SYS VM.SYS) SET HD: UNIT=nn (n = 0 to15) (allows the RT-11 user to specify the Ersatz-11 unit) SET HD: [NO]WRITE (allows the RT-11 user to make the disk RONLY) In addition, I have written code which executes at the user level which, under Ersatz-11, avoids the overhead associated with an EMT request and is twice as fast again as using the HDX.SYS device driver. Whereas: COPY/DEVICE/NOQUERY DU0: DU1: takes over 2 seconds, COPY/DEVICE/NOQUERY HD0: HD1: takes just about 1 second and my user subroutines take about 0.5 seconds to copy the same 32 MB RT-11 partition. Compare that with about 5 minutes for an RD53 to RD53 copy and about 4 minutes for an ESDI to ESDI copy (using either Maxtor or Hitachi drives) on a PDP-11/83. The comparison figures are for a 750 MHz Pentium III. I imagine that a 3+ GH Pentium 4 will be about 4 times as fast, maybe even faster using SATA 2 hard drives of (1 TB?). Well, no good effort goes unpunished and one thing led to another. I am testing other versions including support for 64 units under RT-11 and I have a solution looking for a problem. I know that a few people have discussed a Qbus controller for the PDP-11 to use the current large disk drives. Well, MSCP emulation might be the final goal, however, I would be VERY pleased to support the HD(X).SYS code for anyone who might want to develop the hardware to interface this almost trivial example of an interface to the PDP-11 which uses 8 IOPAGE registers as detailed by John Wilson in his hobby version of E11 in the source file HD.MAC, although there are 2 essential details omitted in the documentation concerning 22 bit Qbus operation and size requests. The key point is that John Wilson's interface (based on a Russian idea which used only 4 IOPAGE registers) is a simple as any concept might be needing only the byte count, block number and user buffer address for each read or write request. Finally, I will also suggest to Bob Supnik or anyone else who may be interested that SIMH might also make use of HD(X).SYS since the interface should be just as efficient under that emulator as Ersatz-11. Does anyone reading this agree and if so, is Bob Supnik the best person to make this suggestion to? Does anyone reading this have both the interest and the ability to write the interface code for SIMH to handle an HD: type of disk drive? Can you suggest who might be interested or have that ability. For myself, while I also use SIMH, it lacks two essential features: (a) Built in VT100 emulation (b) Is only about 1/10 the speed of Ersatz-11 Can anyone help with a contact address for Bob Supnik and anyone else who may wish to consider my request? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 28 16:51:10 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:51:10 -0400 Subject: 9-track tape seals In-Reply-To: <46FCC8020200003700012EB3@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <200709282151.l8SLpBuv002391@keith.ezwind.net> I missd that, Who was looking for writeline tape seals? I currently have several hundred along with several wrightlint tape racks I plan to put on ebay next week fro a friend. Feel free to contact me directly if you or anyone has a need. I threw out close to 1,000 9 track tapes with seals last week. THe other Bob On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:23:14 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Al made a comment about looking for Wright Line tape seals. >A story of mine: >In the 90's I got to spend a lot of time sitting in tape libraries >filled with tens of thousands of tapes hanging on racks from the >hook on the tape seal. >During a typical stretch (say 8 hours nominal) one or two >tape seals would break and the tape would get dumped >to the floor. Sometimes the seal would break in response >to some kind of vibration in the room (after all, there were >several tape drives getting loaded/unloaded etc. as >well as me rummaging through the racks looking for tapes) but >other times they seemed to break with absolutely no reason. >Sometimes the black plastic hanger would break but more >typically the white plastic seal would break near the hanger. >I'd say from this that out of a library of 30,000 tapes >with several tape seals breaking every day, that the expected >MTBF of those Wright-line tape seal is probably 30 years. >That's not necessarily the same as lifetime. As the plasticizers >dry out I'd expect them to break more often. Sunlight and ozone+ >heat can really do a doozy on plastics. >The hard-plastic IBM tape seals seemed to be very much >more vulnerable to breaking in transport than the Wright >lines, and they'd also occasionally fail just hanging there on >the tape rack, but I'm reluctant to make any statistical >statements about them because so many were obviously >broken in transport. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 28 17:05:43 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 9-track tape seals In-Reply-To: <200709282151.l8SLpBuv002391@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200709282151.l8SLpBuv002391@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Bob Bradlee wrote: > I missd that, Who was looking for writeline tape seals? > > I currently have several hundred along with several wrightlint tape > racks I plan to put on ebay next week fro a friend. > > Feel free to contact me directly if you or anyone has a need. I threw > out close to 1,000 9 track tapes with seals last week. ARG!! I was thinking of getting a couple or so to hang on the wall... Note: when I had access to some toss-outs, I took one to decorate a friend's car after his wedding. Reportedly, George Lucas drove by, then drove by again very slowly. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 28 19:04:38 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:04:38 -0700 Subject: 9-track tape seals Message-ID: <46FD9696.9030607@bitsavers.org> > I missd that, Who was looking for writeline tape seals? > I currently have several hundred along with several wrightlint tape racks I plan to put on ebay next week fro > a friend. I (actually CHM) has an urgent need for several hundred > I threw out close to 1,000 9 track tapes with > seals last week. And, as I recall, I had asked if you couldn't find anyone to take the tapes if I could get the seals from you. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 19:03:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:03:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: <20070927233845.71ff9aed@SirToby.dinner41.local> from "Jochen Kunz" at Sep 27, 7 11:38:45 pm Message-ID: > > > they did some really groady (cool) hacks (depends on your point > > of view) to use words as both instructions and data. > Maybe it was written by Mel, The Real Programmer? ;-) I'd love to see anyone write a self-modifying ROM ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 19:10:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:10:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <46FBE8F3.19895.4D867219@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 27, 7 05:31:31 pm Message-ID: > > Has anyone tried Toshiya Takeda's Epson QX-10 emulator at No, I've got a real QX10, and I mush prefer the real hardware to emulators.. > > http://www1.interq.or.jp/~t-takeda/top.html ? > > >From what I can gather, one needs at least the boot rom image to get > the thing to run. Anyone know where I can get one? I have backuops of the boot ROM (2K) and character geenrator ROM (4K) if those would be any use to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 19:16:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:16:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070928003046.06362228@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 28, 7 00:45:07 am Message-ID: > For keyboards, I'd put it "middle of the road." It was better than the > chicklet keyboards of the CoCo1, prolly equalish (to maybe "barely better") > than the "not quite full travel" keyboard of the CoCo2, but not as nice as > the CoCo3 keyboards... and (obviously) no comparison whatsoever to the my I'm having dffficulty understnading that. The CoCo 3 keyboard has a few more keeys that the CoCo 2 one, but was otherwise the same mechanism, plastic plungers over a membrane contact assembly, backed with a metal plate. I wa puzzled as to why you feel the CoCo 3 had a much better keyboard than the 2. > IBM Model M or the keyboard on my Tandy 200 lappytop. Very little comes close to those :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 19:23:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:23:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP integral , 82297a In-Reply-To: <46FC9217.20701@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Sep 28, 7 07:33:11 am Message-ID: [HP Integral serial PCB] > It really is a simple circuit on a dual layer PCB. I'm sure that you I am very suprised there aren't internal power and ground planes, since just about every other HP computer PCB of the time was built that way. Now, IIRC, the Integral I/O cards have an ID register. Typically a '241, outputs to the data bus, inputs pilled high or low as appropriate. The idea is that the software can read the ID of each board in the machine (there is a slot-specific card select line on the connector), and work out what I/O drivers to load, etc. Obviously the card ID is somethign I would have to figure out if I was to copy it. If there are internal power/ground planes, it's not going to be possile to do that from a simple scan of the 2 visible sides of the board. IIRC (again), the Integral serial board uses a 68681 serial chip, or something similar. Strang, considering the HP9000 DIO serial board _and_ the intenral modem for the integral use 8250s... > could easiliy reconstruct one if you whish so. I can provide a scan of > the board. Incidentally, i have 4 Integral expansion boards. In the machine at the momemt are a 1M RAM card and the intenral Modem (uses a Roxkwell 300/1200 baud chipset). Not in the machine are the interface of the expansion box (since I have no expansion box) and a ROM/EPROM module (no ROMs in it). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 19:31:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:31:34 -0400 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 28, 2007, at 8:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> they did some really groady (cool) hacks (depends on your point >>> of view) to use words as both instructions and data. >> Maybe it was written by Mel, The Real Programmer? ;-) > > I'd love to see anyone write a self-modifying ROM ;-) Crank Vcc up a bit, to just below the smoke threshold.. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Sep 28 19:40:19 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 28 Sep 2007 17:40:19 -0700 Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1191026419.46fd9ef3927cb@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Tony Duell : > > > IBM Model M or the keyboard on my Tandy 200 lappytop. > > Very little comes close to those :-) > > -tony is the model M the one with the detachable cable that fast typers sound like the Panzers rolling across the permafrost? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 28 19:46:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:46:42 -0700 Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: <1191026419.46fd9ef3927cb@secure.zipcon.net> References: , <1191026419.46fd9ef3927cb@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <46FD3E02.8072.52BAB4A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2007 at 17:40, Geoff Reed wrote: > is the model M the one with the detachable cable that fast typers sound like the > Panzers rolling across the permafrost? Yup. That be the one--subject of at least one YouTube video. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 28 19:49:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:49:27 -0700 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <46FBE8F3.19895.4D867219@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 27, 7 05:31:31 pm, Message-ID: <46FD3EA7.825.52BD39D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Sep 2007 at 1:10, Tony Duell wrote: > No, I've got a real QX10, and I mush prefer the real hardware to emulators.. Hmmm, I'm impatient. I like my emulator running at around 100x the original. It allows me to make more mistrakes fastwr. > I have backuops of the boot ROM (2K) and character geenrator ROM (4K) if > those would be any use to you. Yes please. I'm very curious about this emulator. Thanks, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Sep 28 19:50:04 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:50:04 -0700 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46FDA13C.3050103@mindspring.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 28, 2007, at 8:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> they did some really groady (cool) hacks (depends on your point >>>> of view) to use words as both instructions and data. >>> Maybe it was written by Mel, The Real Programmer? ;-) >> >> I'd love to see anyone write a self-modifying ROM ;-) Actually I never said anything about writable, only that some words were being used as both data and instructions. See http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/23-767A9/23-767A9.lst on lines 59-79 for what I mean. This is the only boot prom that I've seen that plays any tricks like this; all the others are pretty straightforward code. Funny that the boot prom had to do such strange things to interface to the 'most intelligent' controller (MSCP), whereas all the other dumb controllers (RK05, etc) used really simple boot code sequences. From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Sep 28 21:10:25 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:10:25 -0500 Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070928003046.06362228@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 28, 7 00:45:07 am Message-ID: <200709290114.l8T1Ew0L016505@hosting.monisys.ca> > > For keyboards, I'd put it "middle of the road." It was better than the > > chicklet keyboards of the CoCo1, prolly equalish (to maybe "barely better") > > than the "not quite full travel" keyboard of the CoCo2, but not as nice as > > the CoCo3 keyboards... and (obviously) no comparison whatsoever to the my > > I'm having dffficulty understnading that. The CoCo 3 keyboard has a few > more keeys that the CoCo 2 one, but was otherwise the same mechanism, > plastic plungers over a membrane contact assembly, backed with a metal > plate. I wa puzzled as to why you feel the CoCo 3 had a much better > keyboard than the 2. The early CoCo-2's had a different keyboard, with squarish flat keys, better than the CoCo-1, but not as nice as later CoCo-2's and the CoCo-3. I have a photo of the two side by side: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/coco/index.htm If you look closely at the keys, you can see that the "Tandy" unit has taller keys like the CoCo3, where the "TRS-80" unit has the earlier flatter keys. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 28 20:39:59 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:39:59 -0500 Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: References: <000501c80192$e5f5bfc0$1501a8c0@DaVinci> Message-ID: I have hung on to something that might be useful it this sort of project. Its some code I've always wanted to revive, because it was so cool when I first used it. Its the Versatec Versaplot package. I'm sure its long dead and abandoned by the company, (do they even exist, it got sucked up by Xerox I think) but perhaps the group can advise how we go about getting clearance to post code on bitsavers or some such similar archive. Its a really cool massive Fortran vector plotting library, with a back end rasterizer (Laing-Barsky algorithm for clipping into mannageble bands, or bitmap arrays) Ive ported this to the PC a few times, and it was pretty simple task with Ryan McFarland Fortran, should be a snap with GNU. I also have the updated follow on to Brigham Young University MOVIE.BYU. Its a c Xwindows app for 3d raytracing and animation. I paid for it, ($$$$) a license from BYU, but they never really supported me so I dont feel too guilty about releasing this one either. It was Sun, SGI, HP workstation code, but I got it ported to PC unix (real SYSV) and later Linux. If anybody knows of any other leading edge graphics from the past, I would be interested in hearing from them. Randy > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:38:39 +0200 > From: erik at baigar.de > To: dave at kaleidosoft.com > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org; sellam at vintagetech.com > Subject: RE: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book > > > Hi Dave, > > thanks for your email. Given this information, I think > my stuff is not of use for your project... > > > We have an IBM 1627 plotter which is really just a private-labelled CalComp > > 565 plotter. It has a 220mm width plot area and uses presurized ball point > > pens. > Yes, this is an early ancestor of the 1038/1039 I have got up and > running. > > > We have the schematics for the IBM controller, but don't have one. We'll > > need to build our own to connect between the IBM 1620 computer and the > > plotter. > I do not know the details on this, but maybe it is easier to > rip an other plotter using stepper motors and connect the clock > and direction signals to the 565 directly. There should be quite > a lot plotter out there suitable for this. > > What kind of processor does the IBM controller use? In somewhat > later Calcomp plotters (as mine from 1972) a OPC (online plotter > controller) was included. The original Calcomp PCB contains a > 6800 processor which interprets signals from a RS232C interface. > This PCB generates the signals needed to drive the plotter (i.e. > step and direction pulses). Since this OPC was optional it might > be easier to obtain than the IBM part? Maybe they are identical? > > For the Calcomp OPC I have got schematics and ROM dumps. It has > the same name as the language it understands "PCI906" and of > course includes a character generator... > > > > The information we are looking for is: 1) detailed descriptions of the > > CalComp HCBS [basic plot] library; 2) the algorithms used by CalComp to > > implement the plotting functions; and 3) the vector character font data > > that CalComp used. > Sorry, I do not have anything of the mentioned... > > > We have no application programs for the IBM 1620 that do plotting [although > > we have 200,000 punched cards of programs and data]. We'll be writing the > > demo application in addtion to the basic plot library. > That sounds great - I wish you the very best for this > project, > > best regards, > > Erik. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Erik Baigar [mailto:erik at baigar.de] > > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:33 PM > > To: Sellam Ismail > > Cc: Classic Computers Mailing List; dave at kaleidosoft.com; Erik Baigar > > Subject: Re: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" > > book > > > > > > Dear Sellam Ismail, > > > > I have got a 1039 plotter which I got from a engineering company years ago. > > They used it in the 90ies with DOS based software and they had certain > > libraries (I think it was fortran) from Calcomp to use the plotter. These > > libraries contained commands for e.g. drawing mathematial diagrams, > > characters and so on. > > > > Maybe I somewhere have got the documentation (a few > > pages) listing the commands which are implemented in the library. > > > > Is this the kind of stuff you are looking for? What type of plotter do you > > have got? Has this one got a digital interface (like e.g. PCI907 or PCI906)? > > > > Do you have got any application software on your 1620? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Erik. > > > > > > > The IBM 1620 Restoration Team at the Computer History Museum needs a > > > copy for a project they are working on to interface a CalComp plotter > > > to the 1620. > > > > > > If you've got a copy you can provide (all they need is a photocopy or > > > scan) please contact Dave Babcock . > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > > ] > > > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 28 20:54:33 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:54:33 -0600 Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:39:59 -0500. Message-ID: Randy, I would love to see both Versaplot and MOVIE.BYU! A coworker ported MOVIE.BYU to the ESV when I worked at E&S :-). In article , Randy Dawson writes: > Its the Versatec Versaplot package. [...] > I also have the updated follow on to Brigham Young University MOVIE.BYU. > [...] > If anybody knows of any other leading edge graphics from the past, I would = > be interested in hearing from them. There is also PLOT10 the Tektronix plotting package. Then there are the standards based things like CORE, GKS, PHIGS, PHIGS-PLUS. I got a giant pile of GKS for VMS manuals in a VAX/VMS doc set that I purchased off ebay (12 cardboard boxes of manuals). I have an Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation that does PEX and graphics terminals from Tektronix, HP and Megatek. I have an HP graphics generator that attaches to an oscilloscope. I have the requisite SGI machines too: Personal Iris, Indigo, Indigo^2, Indy, Onyx, and Onyx2. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 28 20:58:32 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:58:32 -0400 Subject: 9-track tape seals In-Reply-To: <46FD9696.9030607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200709290158.l8T1wYND072726@billy.ezwind.net> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:04:38 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >And, as I recall, I had asked if you couldn't find anyone to take >the tapes if I could get the seals from you. Sorry I forgot, I know there is 1500+ more tapes still on racks and a big box of seals we saved for some reason, oops that may have been for you now I think about it. :-) I will check again early next week on how the degaussing is comming along. Bob From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 22:14:14 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <649199.46778.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I'm having dffficulty understnading that. The CoCo 3 > keyboard has a few > more keeys that the CoCo 2 one, but was otherwise > the same mechanism, > plastic plungers over a membrane contact assembly, > backed with a metal > plate. I wa puzzled as to why you feel the CoCo 3 > had a much better > keyboard than the 2. The early Color Computer 2's had not-great keyboards - different than the CoCo 3 keyboards. They looked like someone took a regular keyboard and melted it. The keys were squat and had poor feel and short travel distance. Late model CoCo 2's used the CoCo 3 style keyboard. > > IBM Model M or the keyboard on my Tandy 200 > lappytop. > > Very little comes close to those :-) Agreed. Although I'm partial to the 84 key IBM AT keyboard, and the Zenith Z100 keyboard. -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 22:17:26 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 9-track tape seals In-Reply-To: <200709290158.l8T1wYND072726@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <676138.23103.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:04:38 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > >And, as I recall, I had asked if you couldn't find > anyone to take > >the tapes if I could get the seals from you. > > > Sorry I forgot, > I know there is 1500+ more tapes still on racks and > a big box of seals we saved for some reason, > oops that may have been for you now I think about > it. :-) > > I will check again early next week on how the > degaussing is comming along. Were these the tapes that were in Ohio? I have a need for a bunch of tapes, but they're bloody heavy and a pain to ship. On that note... interested in shipping some tapes? I wonder how cost effective media mail would be? -Ian From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Sep 28 22:33:23 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 04:33:23 +0100 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 References: Message-ID: <006101c80249$7dc1cc20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> > I'd love to see anyone write a self-modifying ROM ;-) Well, if the code was to reside in an EEPROM....LOL.... TTFN - Pete. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 28 23:42:11 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:42:11 -0700 Subject: 9-track tape seals Message-ID: <46FDD7A3.3020906@bitsavers.org> > Were these the tapes that were in Ohio? I have a need > for a bunch of tapes, but they're bloody heavy Bulk freight on a pallet would be the cheapest transport. About the only used tape I would trust is Scotch 7xx, though. Absolutely, positively avoid BASF and Memorex. I'm cursing at a huge pile of MRX V (silver label) I'm trying to process. Total crap. 24+ hours bake time and it still sticks. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 28 23:44:47 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:44:47 -0700 Subject: movie.byu Message-ID: <46FDD83F.9060401@bitsavers.org> > Randy, I would love to see both Versaplot and MOVIE.BYU! I have an original movie.byu distrib tape as well as mini-movie. Fighting with bit rot on it, though. I may have to wait for the analog tape reader. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Sep 29 00:34:46 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:34:46 -0400 Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070928003046.06362228@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070929010830.0527a020@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > For keyboards, I'd put it "middle of the road." It was better than the > > chicklet keyboards of the CoCo1, prolly equalish (to maybe "barely > better") > > than the "not quite full travel" keyboard of the CoCo2, but not as nice as > > the CoCo3 keyboards... and (obviously) no comparison whatsoever to the my > >I'm having dffficulty understnading that. The CoCo 3 keyboard has a few >more keeys Four, to be exact. Ctrl, Alt, F1, & F2. > that the CoCo 2 one, but was otherwise the same mechanism, >plastic plungers over a membrane contact assembly, backed with a metal >plate. I wa puzzled as to why you feel the CoCo 3 had a much better >keyboard than the 2. There were differences in the earlier CoCo2 keyboards from the CoCo3 - the keys weren't full travel & didn't have as "positive" of a feel for lack of a better way to put it.... and the keys were a little more "flat & squarish" - rather a hybrid between the Chicklet CoCo1 keyboard & the CoCo3. Also, having the cursor keys in one area in a '+' configuration made spreadsheet navigation much easier, IMHO... not to mention when switching between a CoCo3 keyboard, a Tandy 200 keyboard & an IBM keyboard, it required less "mental reprogramming" in my case. ;-) > > IBM Model M or the keyboard on my Tandy 200 lappytop. > >Very little comes close to those :-) Which is why I still rely solely on those keyboards... well, except for my PC compatible laptops (of which I now have two for work).... but I do have a USB->PS2 dongle, so I can still use my Model 'M's on my laptops when I have "real typing" to do. ;-) I haven't found a laptop keyboard that I can type faster on than my Tandy 200. My Tandy 600 comes close (but I'd hardly call it a laptop - my legs go numb after <20 minutes on my lap) and I've used the IBM "Butterfly" keyboard which was the nicest _PC_ laptop keyboard I've used... but my max on that was still about 85wpm. (compare that to 65wpm on my Fujitsu PC, and 110wpm on my Tandy 200 keyboard.) =-=-= googling =-=-= It seems later (white-case) CoCo1 computers and early CoCo2 computers came with what I would dub the "half-chicklet" keyboard - there is a low-resolution picture here: http://www.nausicaa.net/~lgreenf/cocopage.htm Scroll down a bit to the pictures of the different versions of CoCos, and you'll see it on the right-hand side above the caption: "The original TRS-80 Color Computer (Later version)" - that machine has the "inbetween" keyboard that my early CoCo2 came with. The CoCo3 keyboard was much improved over that one. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 29 00:36:12 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:36:12 -0500 Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:39:59 -0500. Message-ID: Richard, tell me how to proceed - damn the torpedoes, I can send these packages to you offlist. Send your email. I am at rdawson AT ieee.org The revamped MOVIE.BYU was known as CQUEL.BYU. I sort of twisted the developers arms to give me the source, and then set up the business model to buy it. The story is, it never really got finished, they worked on a windows port for a little while, wrote their own GUI "OwenLook". Somehow, later they got sucked into the 3d gradient surface array code for groundwater modeling and visualization. I Lost them due to their interest (corp funding?) in this, and they abandoned CQUEL.BYU The thing ran fine under linux, there is a substantial amount of the code devoted to beveled buttons, radio knobs. It did not suck in anything but xlib, the GUI was all done within. The raytracer works OK, the 3D scene editor is pretty lame by todays standards (Maya, Blender) The scripting language was pretty good however. I used it and some of the quaternion code to learn from and later write the PC COASTER! roller coaster simulator. First months sales $245,000.....back in the day when I was fab! There is a patent on a piece of the code, for 3D deformation, but I think this is standard knowledge now. Its in all the Maya stuff, to do organic things like facial expressions and character deformation. I too, had a stable of SGI in a carpeted air conditioned garage. Most of it came from Compaq after the HP acquisition. My hero story on the 4D was bringing it up. You would plug it in, it would boot and the graphics screen would come up, with a background Compaq logo, and standard Xlogin enter password. LOCKED OUT!!! What to do? from the boot, there was a debug monitor, cant remember, rim or something like that. I was able to pipe the hard drive to the RS-232, then capture it on the PC as a file, and search for the encrypted password string files. With tools we all know, and a combination of a dictonary attack and a touch typist move of the home fingers from asdf jkl; to qwert uiop I did get it with a dictionary attack. That took my PC all day crunching for the search, then: annamarie PASSWORD FOUND Thats hacking. I cant tell you how many beers and evenings in the garage it took, lost trails and to think up this solution, but the supreme satisfaction of entering the password, and having the machine up was worth it all. The source code to 'Chicago' (windows 3.0) was on here, but, I have lost it and the machine. (And the G.F. due to the hacking, beer drinking in the garage and I'll be in soon...., honey) Alias was there too, I had always thought it was wonderful from what I had seen and heard of it and Wavefront. I could not figure out the old GUI user interface, just barely able to load up a couple of models on the machine, of PC cases, they looked like injection molding renderings. Graphics is fun, Let me know what you are up to. Sorry for the long post. This, however is one of many stories I have about the early days of CG.... Randy PS I have Dore' running too, the Stardent/Ardent package and all source. Its in the BSD PORTS tree, builds just fine.... > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:54:33 -0600 > Subject: Re: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book > > > Randy, I would love to see both Versaplot and MOVIE.BYU! A coworker > ported MOVIE.BYU to the ESV when I worked at E&S :-). > > In article , > Randy Dawson writes: > > > Its the Versatec Versaplot package. [...] > > I also have the updated follow on to Brigham Young University MOVIE.BYU. > > [...] > > If anybody knows of any other leading edge graphics from the past, I would = > > be interested in hearing from them. > > There is also PLOT10 the Tektronix plotting package. Then there are > the standards based things like CORE, GKS, PHIGS, PHIGS-PLUS. I got a > giant pile of GKS for VMS manuals in a VAX/VMS doc set that I > purchased off ebay (12 cardboard boxes of manuals). I have an Evans & > Sutherland ESV workstation that does PEX and graphics terminals from > Tektronix, HP and Megatek. I have an HP graphics generator that > attaches to an oscilloscope. I have the requisite SGI machines too: > Personal Iris, Indigo, Indigo^2, Indy, Onyx, and Onyx2. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Sep 29 00:34:11 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:34:11 -0400 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709290134.11664.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 27 September 2007 16:17, Richard wrote: > In article <014301c8011b$2d8a4400$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, > > "Jay West" writes: > > I noticed this yesterday. It's a 3278, not a 3279. I'd definitely > > want this, but $495 to ship... nah... > > For what its worth, its the only 327x terminal I've seen offered on > ebay in the last several years. These things aren't exactly common. I bought a 3279-S3G off ebay earlier this year... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 29 02:49:33 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:49:33 -0700 Subject: Easily Amused... Message-ID: How cool is this domain name? http://ami.ga/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dave at kaleidosoft.com Fri Sep 28 11:33:35 2007 From: dave at kaleidosoft.com (Dave Babcock) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:35 -0700 Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book References: Message-ID: <004e01c801ed$516c7b40$0201a8c0@Einstein> Erik wrote: > thanks for your email. Given this information, I think > my stuff is not of use for your project... > >> We have the schematics for the IBM controller, but don't have one. We'll >> need to build our own to connect between the IBM 1620 computer and the >> plotter. > I do not know the details on this, but maybe it is easier to > rip an other plotter using stepper motors and connect the clock > and direction signals to the 565 directly. There should be quite > a lot plotter out there suitable for this. To maintain as much historic authencity as we can to the whole system, we'd rather build a clone of the IBM controller. > What kind of processor does the IBM controller use? In somewhat > later Calcomp plotters (as mine from 1972) a OPC (online plotter > controller) was included. The original Calcomp PCB contains a > 6800 processor which interprets signals from a RS232C interface. > This PCB generates the signals needed to drive the plotter (i.e. > step and direction pulses). Since this OPC was optional it might > be easier to obtain than the IBM part? Maybe they are identical? I probably overstated it when I called it a controller. It is discrete logic that does a little hand shaking with the IBM 1620 to retrieve plot "digits", a simple decode of the digits, then drive the plotter lines with the proper timing. It's a very simple mechanism. I was avoiding calling it an interface because that was how I was referring to the interface circuitry within the plotter. IBM did the design of the "controller" and used the "SMS" logic cards that the 1620 is built with. No CalComp circuitry or design was used. The IBM 1620 was a 1960-vintage computer. The plotter was available on the machine in 1962. > For the Calcomp OPC I have got schematics and ROM dumps. It has > the same name as the language it understands "PCI906" and of > course includes a character generator... I don't think that this would help us. >> The information we are looking for is: 1) detailed descriptions of the >> CalComp HCBS [basic plot] library; 2) the algorithms used by CalComp to >> implement the plotting functions; and 3) the vector character font data >> that CalComp used. > Sorry, I do not have anything of the mentioned... I understand. It's amazing to me how available the document was and yet we haven't been able to find one yet. CalComp was always very tight with their source code (a big part of their IP), so I'm not surprised that we can't find that. >> We have no application programs for the IBM 1620 that do plotting >> [although >> we have 200,000 punched cards of programs and data]. We'll be writing >> the >> demo application in addtion to the basic plot library. > That sounds great - I wish you the very best for this > project, We think that it will be very exciting for museum visitors to see. Most of the people will never have experienced a plotter. Thanks, DaveB From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Fri Sep 28 19:32:23 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:32:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? Message-ID: <001101c80230$34685e40$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> To all, I have monitored the postings and know of a few collectors of VAXen, all types it seems. The PDP family is popular too. What about Alphaservers? some are by classic definition at least 10 years old such as the 1000/1000A and 1200 series. Alphastations definitely qualify like the 200/250/255/500 series. I collect most of the Alpha family as I use them frequently. OpenVMS and Digital Unix is the OS of choice. I have in my collection: 1 Alphastation 200/166 - 192M 1 Alphastation 250/266 - 256M 1 Alphaserver 400/233 - 256M 1 Alphaserver 800/500 - 2G 1 Alphaserver 1000/266 - 768M 1 Alphaserver 1000A/333 - 1G 1 Alphaserver 1200/w dual 533 CPUs - 2G 1 Alphaserver DS20/w Dual 500 CPUs - 4G 1 Alpha PWS 600au - 2G 2 Alpha XP1000/667 - 2G 1 Alpha XL366 - 256M 2 DEC3000 300X - 256M 2 Alphastation 500/400 and 333 - 512M I have VAXen as well, fully loaded 2 MicroVAX 3800 w 64M and fully loaded with QBUS options The VAXen are not used as often, but I have one client left that still has these machines in use. I remember the PDP family as I have used them in the past, but I do not have any desire to re-live that part of my past. Enough for now, let me and/or the group what you have. Maybe we can form some sort of list for contact and advice or maybe part swapping. Dan From paco.linux at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 06:36:09 2007 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:36:09 +0200 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <46FD3EA7.825.52BD39D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46FBE8F3.19895.4D867219@cclist.sydex.com> <46FD3EA7.825.52BD39D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi: Looking arround I found this: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/qx10/detail.html http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/qx10/disklibrary.html Paco On 9/29/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Sep 2007 at 1:10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > No, I've got a real QX10, and I mush prefer the real hardware to emulators.. > > Hmmm, I'm impatient. I like my emulator running at around 100x the > original. It allows me to make more mistrakes fastwr. > > > I have backuops of the boot ROM (2K) and character geenrator ROM (4K) if > > those would be any use to you. > > Yes please. I'm very curious about this emulator. > > Thanks, > Chuck > > From legalize at xmission.com Sat Sep 29 10:00:49 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:00:49 -0600 Subject: ebay: IBM 3279 terminal (Oman) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:34:11 -0400. <200709290134.11664.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200709290134.11664.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Thursday 27 September 2007 16:17, Richard wrote: > > In article <014301c8011b$2d8a4400$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, > > > > "Jay West" writes: > > > I noticed this yesterday. It's a 3278, not a 3279. I'd definitely > > > want this, but $495 to ship... nah... > > > > For what its worth, its the only 327x terminal I've seen offered on > > ebay in the last several years. These things aren't exactly common. > > I bought a 3279-S3G off ebay earlier this year... OK, let me clarify, its the only 327x terminal that my searches scraped up :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Sep 29 10:01:19 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:01:19 -0600 Subject: movie.byu In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:44:47 -0700. <46FDD83F.9060401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <46FDD83F.9060401 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > Randy, I would love to see both Versaplot and MOVIE.BYU! > > I have an original movie.byu distrib tape as well as mini-movie. > > Fighting with bit rot on it, though. I may have to wait for the analog tape r eader. > What kind of tape? 9-track? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 29 10:50:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 08:50:18 -0700 Subject: 9-track tape seals In-Reply-To: <46FDD7A3.3020906@bitsavers.org> References: <46FDD7A3.3020906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46FE11CA.6631.55F5F4CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Sep 2007 at 21:42, Al Kossow wrote: > Absolutely, positively avoid BASF and Memorex. I'm cursing at > a huge pile of MRX V (silver label) I'm trying to process. Total > crap. 24+ hours bake time and it still sticks. I take it that the only remedy for the stuff is landfill? I have a couple of reels of the stuff and can verify that it makes a mess when it sticks--mostly seems to happen on the inner turns. Can it be baked to restore usability? Cheers, Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 29 13:15:36 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:15:36 -0700 Subject: Looking for "Programming CalComp Electromechanical Plotters" book In-Reply-To: <004e01c801ed$516c7b40$0201a8c0@Einstein> References: <004e01c801ed$516c7b40$0201a8c0@Einstein> Message-ID: <46FE9648.1060207@socal.rr.com> I haven't been following the discussion, so sorry if I missed a bunch, but I think I have that book from a plotter class I took back in the 70's. Punched cards on a 360 in assembly language calling and called by fortran programs. Plotter was a small, desktop sized, drum with continuous feed paper and mag tape input, and it was pretty old in 1975. Send me an email directly and I can "start" looking for it in storage. Exotic commands I recall include, pen up, pen down, move (x,y). From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 29 15:22:17 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC-DOS 1.1 docs Message-ID: Does anyone here have PC-DOS 1.1 docs scanned in and in PDF format? I have the hardcopy and I'd like to make sure I don't need to scan it myself. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 15:47:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:47:40 -0400 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting Message-ID: In Stargate Atlantis, season 2 episode 19, I spotted the console of an Etec Autoscan scanning electron microscope, identical to mine. It appears on what I think is the bridge of the warship that McKay is working to resurrect, a moment after "more fissures open" in the volcano. Neat! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 29 16:27:39 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:27:39 -0700 Subject: 9-track tape seals Message-ID: <46FEC34B.6040400@bitsavers.org> > I take it that the only remedy for the stuff is landfill? In my opinion, yes. > it makes a mess when it sticks black sticky tar. > Can it be baked to restore usability? meaning 'read once to recover what you can from it'? yes, to a point. 24 hours at 55degC (and lots of forced air) will take care of most brands, with the exception of 2400' MRX V. The DEC LCG archive was mostly silver-label MRX V, but 3600', and the formulation was different enough that I had OK luck with that. The thicker tape/binder on the 2400' MRX V is the pits. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 29 16:29:02 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:29:02 -0700 Subject: movie.byu Message-ID: <46FEC39E.7050705@bitsavers.org> > What kind of tape? 9-track? correct. 9trk 800bpi 2400' blocked 80chars/record. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 16:54:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:54:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 7 08:31:34 pm Message-ID: > > On Sep 28, 2007, at 8:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> they did some really groady (cool) hacks (depends on your point > >>> of view) to use words as both instructions and data. > >> Maybe it was written by Mel, The Real Programmer? ;-) > > > > I'd love to see anyone write a self-modifying ROM ;-) > > Crank Vcc up a bit, to just below the smoke threshold.. ;) On an M9312 card? I worry about what's going to happen to the rest of the machine... I also wonder if it's correct to call the device a 'ROM' if it's used in that manner :-) Anyway, I cna't beleive there's much use for a boot ROM that boots the device once, and then has to be replaced (remember these are fusible-link ROMs, they can't be erased). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 17:03:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:03:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <46FD3EA7.825.52BD39D3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 28, 7 05:49:27 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Sep 2007 at 1:10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > No, I've got a real QX10, and I mush prefer the real hardware to emulators.. > > Hmmm, I'm impatient. I like my emulator running at around 100x the > original. It allows me to make more mistrakes fastwr. Well, if I wanted a fast PC, I'd buy a fast PC. But if I want to experience a QX10, I'll use a QX10, and have all the fun of tracing video problems caused by extra components [ask if you want to know _that_ story], and aligning those wonderful voice-coil floppy drives... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 17:10:40 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:10:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: <200709290114.l8T1Ew0L016505@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 28, 7 09:10:25 pm Message-ID: > The early CoCo-2's had a different keyboard, with squarish flat keys, better Is that the version in a larger case, like a CoCo 1 case, but white? I read about those, but I've never seen one (they are not common in the UK at all). All my CoCo 2s are in the later case (same size as a CoCo 3) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 17:22:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:22:30 -0400 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B800649-4609-420C-A191-E24D177AB551@neurotica.com> On Sep 29, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> they did some really groady (cool) hacks (depends on your point >>>>> of view) to use words as both instructions and data. >>>> Maybe it was written by Mel, The Real Programmer? ;-) >>> >>> I'd love to see anyone write a self-modifying ROM ;-) >> >> Crank Vcc up a bit, to just below the smoke threshold.. ;) > > On an M9312 card? I worry about what's going to happen to the rest > of the > machine... I also wonder if it's correct to call the device a 'ROM' if > it's used in that manner :-) > > Anyway, I cna't beleive there's much use for a boot ROM that boots the > device once, and then has to be replaced (remember these are > fusible-link > ROMs, they can't be erased). Hey, did you miss the smiley? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Sep 29 17:26:23 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:26:23 -0300 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator References: Message-ID: <001d01c802e7$d08fb900$f0fea8c0@alpha> > problems caused by extra components [ask if you want to know _that_ > story], and aligning those wonderful voice-coil floppy drives... Please :o) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 29 18:22:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <882492.79326.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On 29 Sep 2007 at 1:10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > No, I've got a real QX10, and I mush prefer the > real hardware to emulators.. > > > > Hmmm, I'm impatient. I like my emulator running > at around 100x the > > original. It allows me to make more mistrakes > fastwr. > > Well, if I wanted a fast PC, I'd buy a fast PC. But > if I want to > experience a QX10, I'll use a QX10, and have all the > fun of tracing video > problems caused by extra components [ask if you want > to know _that_ > story], and aligning those wonderful voice-coil > floppy drives... > > -tony I wanna I wanna! Fill me in! :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 29 18:54:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 17:54:17 -0600 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > In Stargate Atlantis, season 2 episode 19, I spotted the console of an > Etec Autoscan scanning electron microscope, identical to mine. It > appears on what I think is the bridge of the warship that McKay is > working to resurrect, a moment after "more fissures open" in the > volcano. Neat! So how much of the scope do you have? > -Dave Ben. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Sep 29 19:54:25 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:54:25 -0500 Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <200709290114.l8T1Ew0L016505@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 28, 7 09:10:25 pm Message-ID: <200709292359.l8TNx0Cu023103@hosting.monisys.ca> > > The early CoCo-2's had a different keyboard, with squarish flat keys, better > > Is that the version in a larger case, like a CoCo 1 case, but white? I > read about those, but I've never seen one (they are not common in the UK > at all). All my CoCo 2s are in the later case (same size as a CoCo 3) I think you are thinking of the last CoCo1 version, which came with 64k and in a full sized white case. It did have the same keyboard as early CoCo2s. They are a little uncommon. I have one of these, and a photo on my site sitting beside the more recognized silver CoCo1. Early TRS-80 CoCo2s had the same (or at least very similar) keyboard, which later changed to more sculpted full sized keys, which continued into the CoCo3. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 29 19:07:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 17:07:15 -0700 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <46FD3EA7.825.52BD39D3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 28, 7 05:49:27 pm, Message-ID: <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Sep 2007 at 23:03, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, if I wanted a fast PC, I'd buy a fast PC. But if I want to > experience a QX10, I'll use a QX10, and have all the fun of tracing video > problems caused by extra components [ask if you want to know _that_ > story], and aligning those wonderful voice-coil floppy drives... I'm more interested in the software. Much of it was implemented in Forth and there were some very interesting aspects of the implementation. For my purposes, an accurate emulator is just as good (or even better) than the original. I don't need to worry about flakey components, or out-of-adjustment drives. I can run multiple sessions for comparison and even hack the emulator code to trap what I'm interested in. As far as "recreating the experience", I honestly don't think it's possible without the use of hynotism and some psychoactive drugs. I'm not who I was in 1982 (thankfully!) and any "gee-whiz" that the real thing had in 1982 is not going to make the same impression on me today. (256KB? Golly, my wife's digital camera packs more than 4 orders of magnitude more on a MicroSD card--and it's nonvolatile). I don't really care if it's implemented with chicken nuggets and used chewing gum--as long as it works and runs the software I'm interested in. So, hang me for a heretic. :) Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 19:24:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 20:24:31 -0400 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> On Sep 29, 2007, at 7:54 PM, woodelf wrote: >> In Stargate Atlantis, season 2 episode 19, I spotted the console >> of an Etec Autoscan scanning electron microscope, identical to >> mine. It appears on what I think is the bridge of the warship >> that McKay is working to resurrect, a moment after "more fissures >> open" in the volcano. Neat! > So how much of the scope do you have? All if it. It was operational a few years ago at my old place, but I haven't set it back up since I moved. http://www.neurotica.com/albums/sem/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 29 19:35:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:35:25 -0600 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > All if it. It was operational a few years ago at my old place, but I > haven't set it back up since I moved. > > http://www.neurotica.com/albums/sem/ What is growing on the filaments? > -Dave Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 19:36:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 20:36:12 -0400 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 29, 2007, at 8:35 PM, woodelf wrote: >> All if it. It was operational a few years ago at my old place, >> but I haven't set it back up since I moved. >> http://www.neurotica.com/albums/sem/ > What is growing on the filaments? I'm no chemist, but I assume they're some oxide of tungsten. That's what happens when an incandescent light bulb blows out due to loss of vacuum. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 29 19:43:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:43:15 -0600 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46FEF123.9000003@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm no chemist, but I assume they're some oxide of tungsten. That's > what happens when an incandescent light bulb blows out due to loss of > vacuum. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me. Looks organic like some thing was realy growing. > -Dave PS. Nice PDP 11. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 19:51:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 20:51:08 -0400 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: <46FEF123.9000003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> <46FEF123.9000003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com> On Sep 29, 2007, at 8:43 PM, woodelf wrote: >> I'm no chemist, but I assume they're some oxide of tungsten. >> That's what happens when an incandescent light bulb blows out due >> to loss of vacuum. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me. > > Looks organic like some thing was realy growing. Yup. I was amazed...I scanned around that filament for many, many hours. It was like exploring a jungle. > PS. Nice PDP 11. Thanks! But...which one? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 29 19:57:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:57:19 -0600 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com> References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> <46FEF123.9000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46FEF46F.80101@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 29, 2007, at 8:43 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> I'm no chemist, but I assume they're some oxide of tungsten. >>> That's what happens when an incandescent light bulb blows out due to >>> loss of vacuum. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me. >> >> Looks organic like some thing was realy growing. > > Yup. I was amazed...I scanned around that filament for many, many > hours. It was like exploring a jungle. > >> PS. Nice PDP 11. > > Thanks! But...which one? The 11/70 in the album. I'll get back to it now that found 'home' on your web site and I eat supper. Drools -- wishing there was a for sale section. > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 20:00:23 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:00:23 -0400 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: <46FEF46F.80101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> <46FEF123.9000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com> <46FEF46F.80101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 29, 2007, at 8:57 PM, woodelf wrote: >>>> I'm no chemist, but I assume they're some oxide of tungsten. >>>> That's what happens when an incandescent light bulb blows out >>>> due to loss of vacuum. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me. >>> >>> Looks organic like some thing was realy growing. >> Yup. I was amazed...I scanned around that filament for many, >> many hours. It was like exploring a jungle. >>> PS. Nice PDP 11. >> Thanks! But...which one? > The 11/70 in the album. Ahh yes, my "pride and joy". Thanks for noticing. :-) > I'll get back to it now that > found 'home' on your web site and I eat supper. Drools -- wishing > there was a > for sale section. Heh...there may be if my country's middle class continues to die out at the current rate. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 29 20:14:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <61674.32468.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> besides the Poppy Chuck, what vintage beauties do you have "hanging" around the house? --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Sep 2007 at 23:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Well, if I wanted a fast PC, I'd buy a fast PC. > But if I want to > > experience a QX10, I'll use a QX10, and have all > the fun of tracing video > > problems caused by extra components [ask if you > want to know _that_ > > story], and aligning those wonderful voice-coil > floppy drives... > > I'm more interested in the software. Much of it was > implemented in > Forth and there were some very interesting aspects > of the > implementation. > > For my purposes, an accurate emulator is just as > good (or even > better) than the original. I don't need to worry > about flakey > components, or out-of-adjustment drives. I can run > multiple sessions > for comparison and even hack the emulator code to > trap what I'm > interested in. > > As far as "recreating the experience", I honestly > don't think it's > possible without the use of hynotism and some > psychoactive drugs. > I'm not who I was in 1982 (thankfully!) and any > "gee-whiz" that the > real thing had in 1982 is not going to make the same > impression on me > today. (256KB? Golly, my wife's digital camera > packs more than 4 > orders of magnitude more on a MicroSD card--and it's > nonvolatile). > > I don't really care if it's implemented with chicken > nuggets and used > chewing gum--as long as it works and runs the > software I'm interested > in. > > So, hang me for a heretic. :) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 29 20:51:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:51:31 -0700 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <61674.32468.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com>, <61674.32468.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FE9EB3.16601.581C5E9D@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Sep 2007 at 18:14, Chris M wrote: > besides the Poppy Chuck, what vintage beauties do you > have "hanging" around the house? Some S-100 stuff, including a MITS 8800 and a couple of other boxes, A TRS-80 model 16 and, sadly, no Poppies, just two "loaded" F-85s, including one with the external 14" disk drive. A few other mass- produced odds and ends that I'm aware of, but nothing that I've touched in the last 10-15 years. Various peripherals. And the S-100 stuff probably hasn't been touched in over 25 years, except to move it. Collecting just isn't my thing. Interest in old technology is. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 29 21:35:04 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46FD3EA7.825.52BD39D3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 28, 7 05:49:27 pm, <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070929183845.B18817@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For my purposes, an accurate emulator is just as good (or even > better) than the original. I don't need to worry about flakey > components, or out-of-adjustment drives. Well, . . . you could implement a truly bug-for-bug emulator, and simulate in software the effects of flaky components and out-of-adjustment drives. Maybe like the guy who modified the TRS80 BLACKJACK program to be "more realistic" - multiple "dealer" profiles chosen at random, and according to your winnings, some of which shorted payouts, dealt seconds, or just plin NEVER LOST. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 29 21:55:43 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:55:43 -0700 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com> References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> <46FEF123.9000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 8:51 PM -0400 9/29/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Sep 29, 2007, at 8:43 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> I'm no chemist, but I assume they're some oxide of tungsten. >>>That's what happens when an incandescent light bulb blows out due >>>to loss of vacuum. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me. >> >>Looks organic like some thing was realy growing. > > Yup. I was amazed...I scanned around that filament for many, many >hours. It was like exploring a jungle. I used to be part of a Micro-Mineral club, and each newsletter would contain pictures of minerals made with an electron microscope. Some pretty amazing stuff. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 21:58:37 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:58:37 -0400 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting In-Reply-To: References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> <46FEF123.9000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sep 29, 2007, at 10:55 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> I'm no chemist, but I assume they're some oxide of tungsten. >>>> That's what happens when an incandescent light bulb blows out >>>> due to loss of vacuum. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me. >>> >>> Looks organic like some thing was realy growing. >> >> Yup. I was amazed...I scanned around that filament for many, >> many hours. It was like exploring a jungle. > > I used to be part of a Micro-Mineral club, and each newsletter > would contain pictures of minerals made with an electron > microscope. Some pretty amazing stuff. Yeah. I'd love to do more of that with mine; I'm midway through the construction of my new lab (converted 3-car garage) which will hopefully allow me to (among other things) resurrect my SEM. At that point I plan to make it available for cool people to send me samples and such; I've already had a few requests. I've completely run out of money so the lab construction has stalled, but I hope to resolve that soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 29 22:38:27 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: <46FDA13C.3050103@mindspring.com> References: <46FDA13C.3050103@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200709300341.XAA23969@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Funny that the boot prom had to do such strange things to interface > to the 'most intelligent' controller (MSCP), whereas all the other > dumb controllers (RK05, etc) used really simple boot code sequences. My guess would be that the smarter controller also demanded more smarts from the host-side software. (I've seen (specs for) Ethernet interfaces, for example, that simply can't work without not only DMA but a real ring of receive buffers - not a big deal for a real kernel, but a pain for standalone code like booters, and quite possibly fatal for severely-size-limited standalone code.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 22:43:33 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:43:33 -0600 Subject: WTB/Trade: DECstation 5000/133 memory In-Reply-To: <46F0881D.4060706@gmail.com> References: <8F5217FD-2851-47D3-A969-6BD77E010606@loomcom.com> <46F0881D.4060706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <624966d60709292043v5a48e1acvc75939077aac06cf@mail.gmail.com> I have some of each if either of you still need any. Paul On 9/18/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Seth Morabito wrote: > > > > On Sep 18, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> I don't remember the DEC part number for these, alas. > > > > After some digging, I believe these are MS01-CA memory kits I'm looking > > for. > > > > 4MB 80-pin 70ns ECC SIMMs, in pairs. > > On a tangent, I'm looking for as many MS02-CA memories as I can lay my > hands on. I'm trying to build out some DECstation 5000/260s. > > Peace... Sridhar > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 29 22:50:58 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 20:50:58 -0700 Subject: OT: nifty equipment sighting Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:43:15 -0600> From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> To: > Subject: Re: OT: nifty equipment sighting> > Dave McGuire wrote:> > > I'm no chemist, but I assume they're some oxide of tungsten. That's > > what happens when an incandescent light bulb blows out due to loss of > > vacuum. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me.> > Looks organic like some thing was realy growing. Hi This doesn't look like oxide, it looks like tungsten crystals. these form as the filament evaporates and recondenses on the filament. This is part of why they fail. There are two factors. One is that they tend to thin over time by evaporation. The other is that they tend to get more brittle over time. It is rare to see one fail because of loss of vacuum but when it does, the filament turns to a whitish yellow powder. Most lights do not have a high vacuum. If they did, the glass would cover with evaporated tungsten quickly and bock the light. You might notice that only the tops of the bulb get darkened. This is because of simple convection of the gas in the bulb. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 29 22:55:11 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? In-Reply-To: <001101c80230$34685e40$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <001101c80230$34685e40$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <200709300409.AAA04191@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Enough for now, let me and/or the group what you have. Maybe we can > form some sort of list for contact and advice or maybe part swapping. Well, I wouldn't say I "collect" Alphas or VAXen. But I have a handful of them. I have a MicroVAX-II (in a BA123). I have a couple of more recent VAXen which I put on the shelf when I got them and haven't yet collected the round tuits to get out and do anything with; I don't even remember their model numbers. I have a drawer full of MicroVAX-II cards (CPUs, DEQNAs, disk interfaces, tape interfaces, etc) and a spare BA123, and quite likely could assemble another machine if I wanted to. As for alphas, I have a NoName (an AXPpci33, I think, is the proper name for it). I have a PWS 600au. I have a "DEC 3000 - M300X, 175MHz". The ?V2 I almost never turn on, because I have basically no disk for it, and it's *very* slow to run it entirely diskless. One of my projects is to try to put together a simple disk interface of some sort (probably IDE), but that's very much a blue-sky project at the moment. The NoName has cooling issues. I have it in a peecee case, and to keep it from overheating I not only had to add a big fan blowing directly on the CPU and 3.3V regulator heatsinks, but also run it with the case open. It also won't reboot cleanly; if I tell it to reboot, it hangs, and I have to hard-cycle power to make it come back. I suspect this may be a legacy from having overheated to the point of crashing too many times. The 3000/M300X has been unstable too, but in rather intermittent ways, and I've mostly given up on stabilizing it. I'm not even sure whether the problems were hardware or software, though I suspect hardware. The PWS600au has been stable, and I have hopes that it will prove to be the stable-&-usable Alpha I've wanted for quite a while. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Sep 29 23:11:49 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:11:49 -0500 Subject: Scanning electron microscope offer In-Reply-To: References: <46FEE5A9.9020800@jetnet.ab.ca> <78A13698-37A0-4D03-8064-87C682BE585A@neurotica.com> <46FEEF4D.3050703@jetnet.ab.ca> <46FEF123.9000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070929220644.0694e690@mail> At 09:58 PM 9/29/2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah. I'd love to do more of that with mine; I'm midway through >the construction of my new lab (converted 3-car garage) which will >hopefully allow me to (among other things) resurrect my SEM. If anyone wants a classic SEM, I have one I'd part with. In summer 2001, I picked up a circa 1983 Amray 1610T SEM with a PGT 4000 EDS (energy-dispersive x-ray spectroscopy unit) from Northwestern University. It had been donated by Littelfuse out of Des Plaines. It was still palletted and wrapped when I got it. It was in purportedly working condition, but NWU never used it. See the pictures at: http://www.threedee.com/jmosn/microscopes/amray/index.html I performed a few simple repairs to the unit: resetting the chamber door hinges, resoldering a few broken connections, and mapping the reconnection process, gathering docs. I found the tech at Littelfuse who'd once known the unit, and picked up a few more manuals and schematics from KLA Tencor and a fellow in Germany. I have floppies for the PGT, a half-dozen extra filaments, a Leybold model D8A vacuum pump, and the vibration isolation unit (a bucket filled with cement with a tube through it.) The Amray is run by an 8085. It'll magnify down to about 50,000 x. The PGT computer is a customized RT-11 running on a PPD-11/23. It powers up but doesn't boot. Hitting the reset button does trigger the floppy, but I'm not seeing anything on-screen. It's heavy. The column base is 33"x33" and may weigh as much as 1,200 pounds, but the real danger comes from it having a high center of gravity. The Amray console is wider and may weigh only 300 pounds. The PGT is in a 19"-ish rack with a terminal on top. A friend and I moved it all with a pallet jack and a flat-bed truck. (He was sympathetic to crazy projects like this because he does the same with Jaguars.) To get it in and out of my garage, I used a bucket on a tractor. For the last few years, it's been in heated storage at a friend's facility with a dock. Sometime in-between now and then, I saw the same model Amray and PGT sell for about $15,000 on LabX. Of course, the difference between working and "sitting in storage for seven years" may be wide and costly so don't think that I think it's worth that. SEM techs get a nice penny per hour, per diem, and travel. I have no idea what I'd take for it. If I get tired of it, I'm sure all that quality stainless steel in the column will fetch a nice price at the scrapper. :-) I'm open to offers. I'm in Wisconsin between Madison and Milwaukee. - John From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 30 01:21:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:21:51 -0700 Subject: "Chuck" question Message-ID: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> A friend forwarded this message to me and I agreed to post it. Please note that she's an archivist and not a collector: "I tried posting this elsewhere but other than one reply that some schools have old computers around, nobody's come up with a good explanation. So I thought I'd try Archives List in the hopes that somebody who either attended Stanford University or works there might be able to say if the reference is some sort of in-joke. The show is Chuck on which premiered on NBC this week and the question is: Why would a character who's 27 years old say he'd developed a video game on a TRS80 when he attended Stanford? Assuming a normal progress through school, Chuck attended college between 1997 and 2002 or perhaps a few years earlier if he was a child prodigy (of which there is no evidence in the pilot.) Would he have been able to to find a Trash-80 there and use it to design a video game? TRS-80's were first manufactured before he was born and production ended by the time he entered kindergarten. Although the Model 100 laptop enjoyed some popularity - especially with reporters - until the 1990's, surviving TRS-80's were antiques by the time the character was in high school. I've checked various message boards, etc. but haven't found a mention of this - just lots of comparisons to Jake 2.0 and a fairly even mix of pans and praise for the show. Judy Turner Whitefish Bay, WI" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 30 01:23:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:23:47 -0700 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <20070929183845.B18817@shell.lmi.net> References: <46FD3EA7.825.52BD39D3@cclist.sydex.com>, <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070929183845.B18817@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46FEDE83.9460.5915A43F@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Sep 2007 at 19:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > Maybe like the guy who modified the TRS80 BLACKJACK program to be "more > realistic" - multiple "dealer" profiles chosen at random, and according to > your winnings, some of which shorted payouts, dealt seconds, or just plin > NEVER LOST. Now there's a thought--modify "advent" so that once you got into the twisty little passages, you'd never get out. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 30 01:37:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 00:37:25 -0600 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <46FEDE83.9460.5915A43F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46FD3EA7.825.52BD39D3@cclist.sydex.com>, <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070929183845.B18817@shell.lmi.net> <46FEDE83.9460.5915A43F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46FF4425.1050700@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Now there's a thought--modify "advent" so that once you got into the > twisty little passages, you'd never get out. I played a 3D graphics game with cave men and you got a real cave that you had to find the correct passage through.And of course your torch went out after 3 or 4 rooms. Ben. That reminds me to update advent for my PDP-8. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 30 02:22:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 00:22:00 -0700 Subject: CDP System question In-Reply-To: <46FEF46F.80101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <3F94F507-FD23-47F7-AFCB-A8CE4100D66B@neurotica.com>, <46FEF46F.80101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46FEEC28.1847.594AEE3F@cclist.sydex.com> I just got a bunch of diskettes in that were written about 1982/3 with a Columbia MS-DOS system (DOS 1.26). I know the 1600 was pretty common back then as PC clones go, so no surprises there. The diskettes are all 320K DSDD and contain a bunch of Perfect Writer files, but one contains the actual Perfect Writer executables--and they're not the x86 version, but the x80. All were written before 1986. Here's my question. Did CDP ever include a program with their DOS boxes to read files from the older 964 Z-80 CP/M systems? I'm trying to put some chronology together on this. Curiously, the guy who owns the diskettes never used PW on his x86 box. He can't remember what came from where or how (Some folks are blessed that way). Thanks, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Sep 30 02:31:47 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 02:31:47 -0500 Subject: gEDA symbols Message-ID: <46FF50E3.9040504@mdrconsult.com> I'm fiddling around with the gEDA suite, and I'm finding that nearly none of the chips I want to use - MC6809[E], NEC 675, some 74LSxxx chips - have symbols in the gschem libraries. I have the 6809E and 765 parts done, but there are several smaller parts to go. After thinking about it, I seem to remember that this came up a few months ago, and that somebody (Dave?) either had an extensive private symbol library or knew of an online repository. Anyhow, I thought I'd ask before I invent anymore wheels. Anyone have pointers to "obsolete" and arcane part descriptions for gschem? Doc From ballsandy at msn.com Sun Sep 30 03:08:42 2007 From: ballsandy at msn.com (john ball) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:08:42 -0200 Subject: looking for an IBM 9348 Message-ID: Well to satisfy my craving for a 9-track tape drive I have decided to start looking for something I can manage. Yes, I would love a 3240 or that massive IBM 5360 (system/36?) on the Vintage computer marketplace but I have to get serious and remember that that kind of gear weighs too much for a teen like me to ship. Anyways, yeah I am looking for an IBM 9348 scsi tape drive. I was looking into using it in a little IBM 360 emulator that runs on Ubuntu but mainly it's for bragging rights (Chicks dig guys with big drives). Now while it is samller it's still hjeavy (if you alrready have one than you understand me here) so if you want to part with yours PLEASE promise me that it works before I shell out. It would be nice to get one locally too. Identification photos can be found on the link below. http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IBM9348.html Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Sep 30 04:20:41 2007 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 02:20:41 -0700 Subject: looking for an IBM 9348 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46FF6A69.5000004@crash.com> john ball wrote: > > Anyways, yeah I am looking for an IBM 9348 scsi tape drive. I was looking into using it in a little IBM 360 emulator that runs on Ubuntu but mainly it's for bragging rights (Chicks dig guys with big drives). Now while it is samller it's still hjeavy (if you alrready have one than you understand me here) so if you want to part with yours PLEASE promise me that it works before I shell out. It would be nice to get one locally too. If you're flexible on the packaging, there are a number of SCSI 6250 bpi 9-track tape drives that were offered by DEC, HP, etc. Many were shipped in tabletop trim instead of rackmount. A search for eBay auction #220154267195 will show you such a unit from Overland Data currently located in Allantown, PA. Good luck, --Steve. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 30 04:26:04 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:26:04 +0100 Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1191144364.5720.13.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-09-29 at 23:21 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The show is Chuck on which premiered on NBC this week > and the question is: Haven't seen it. > Why would a character who's 27 years old say he'd > developed a video game on a TRS80 when he attended > Stanford? Is it set maybe 15 years ago? Maybe he developed it on a TRS-80 for fun. I still write games for the ZX Spectrum sometimes, when I feel like a blast of retro-coding. > Assuming a normal progress through school, Chuck > attended college between 1997 and 2002 or perhaps a > few years earlier if he was a child prodigy (of which > there is no evidence in the pilot.) Would he have > been able to to find a Trash-80 there and use it to > design a video game? Undoubtedly. They're not exactly rare. Gordon From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Sep 30 05:03:02 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:03:02 +0200 Subject: VSII/GPX joy (and minor annoyance) Message-ID: <20070930100302.259250@gmx.net> (Hah...Just in time to join in when vax-ownership is asked!) Hello folks, my very first DEC computer has arrived - a VAXstation II/GPX in a BA123 enclosure from Jos Dreesen, which I just brought home from Switzerland last weekend with the help of my parents. Thanks again! The original configuration of the system was: Slot AB CD 1 ----KA630-A CPU---- 2 ----some memory---- 3 ----more memory---- 4 -DELQA- ..empty.. 5 -RQDX3- ..empty.. 6 ----QDSS 4-plane--- 7 ----QDSS 4-plane--- 8 ----QDSS base------ 9-12 .......empty....... 13 ..empty.. -RQ Dist- As to mass storage, there is a RX33 floppy drive in the vertical bay and the system has one HDD frontpanel insert installed. It came with a dead (possibly revivable) RD53, but a fellow collector also gave me a supposedly functional one. I assume the backplane is the original 4x Q/CD, 8x Q/Q thing that belongs in a BA123 as indicated by the lettering in the cardcage. To my understanding, this means the grant chain was broken in slot 5 (after the RQDX3) because there's no board in its CD half. I rearranged the cards so that the RQDX3 now resides in 4AB, the QDSS base board is in 5AD and the DELQA in 8CD (I hope I did get that serpentine configuration right). After correcting an issue with the cardcage fan (which turned out to be just the connector inside the fan tray plugged in backwards!), I hooked up a crufty old laptop as a terminal but didn't get any output as the selftest always got stuck at "A", which corresponds to a keyboard/pointing device problem. This is supposedly normal since I have the VCB02 video option installed but nothing plugged into it. (I have yet to get myself a DEC keyboard, mouse and the BC18Z splitter box cable; at the same time, I'll be looking for a TK drive with controller and any other stuff I can cram in there.) I can get into console I/O mode (chevron prompt) by sending a Break from the terminal but it's a bit annoying that I don't get to see the CPU version banner and the test countdown that way. Shorting pins 8 and 9 on the serial console connector didn't make any difference either (I have read it will cause some VAXstations to use that as console instead of the graphics display) - bit of a bummer considering that any humble SPARCstation who realizes they haven't got a keyboard attached will start using the serial console. I have read the KA630 User's Guide, especially the meaning of the BBU RAM contents, and it doesn't look as if there is anything short of hacking the POST code and burning a new PROM that could be done about it, but if I have overlooked something, I'm all ears. Other than that, I'm off now looking for a MOP server and some netbootable OS image, perhaps NetBSD, for a start... Yours sincerely Arno Kletzander, DEC neophyte ;) -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 30 08:06:06 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for an IBM 9348 In-Reply-To: <46FF6A69.5000004@crash.com> Message-ID: <471897.56999.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Steven M Jones wrote: > john ball wrote: > > > > Anyways, yeah I am looking for an IBM 9348 scsi > tape drive. I was looking into using it in a little > IBM 360 emulator that runs on Ubuntu but mainly it's > for bragging rights (Chicks dig guys with big > drives). Now while it is samller it's still hjeavy > (if you alrready have one than you understand me > here) so if you want to part with yours PLEASE > promise me that it works before I shell out. It > would be nice to get one locally too. > If you're flexible on the packaging, there are a > number of SCSI 6250 bpi > 9-track tape drives that were offered by DEC, HP, > etc. The IBM 9348 drive is a great drive - I wish I had one too. That same drive was sold by IBM, HP and Overland data with different faceplates. I don't recall who actually made it, but I seem to believe that it was HP. -Ian From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 30 09:58:57 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:58:57 -0400 Subject: Who was putting together the TSX+ archive? Message-ID: <20070930145857.CB4B2BA45B2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> In the past couple years somebody here was putting together an archive of TSX+ stuff. I have about 15 pounds worth of paper 6.31 manuals, including some release notes up to I think TSX+ 6.50, and some other release notes going back from 6.31 too. Is this already in the archive, or would it be useful? There was some mention of it being in bitsavers but I don't see an S&H or sandh directory there. Tim. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 10:28:18 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:28:18 +0100 Subject: Setting up a VAXstation Message-ID: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> Well, last night, I went and collected my first ever DEC box. It's a VAXstation 3100/38, bought on eBay for 99p (UK?0.99). It will be a few weeks until I get it home, and currently, it has no hard disks, but I'm hoping to rectify that. I plan to put 2 or 3 old SCSI disks in it - whatever I can find that will fit. I am sure they'll all be well under 1GB, as I believe that is a limitation for boot disks. I think I have a couple of 80MB ones around and maybe a 150MB or so. The two problems I don't currently have answers for are these. [1] I don't have a suitable monitor cable. I have a keyboard, 3 mice, and a DEC 17" mono monitor with a single BNC connector on the back. I also have a monitor cable, but it's an RGB one - one end is 3 colour-coded BNC connectors, the other is a D plug with three large shrouded sockets - like the larger connectors in a YB13 monitor cable but without the standard pins. On the back of the VAX is a monitor out port, but it's a D connector. Alas the machine is currently 15mi away or so, so I can't check, but I think it has about 20 pins. Again, a D connector. What sort of monitors will a VAXstation drive? I have an old Mac 21" monitor with a YB13 connector, which syncs happily enough to both PCs and Macs at around 1024x768, 1280x1024 (at a refresh rate of about twice a minute) and some Mac res in between - 1152x870 or so. Where on earth can I find a VAXstation video cable in 2007? [2] Friends have commented to me that a VAX of this age won't be able to boot from CD-ROM. Somewhere, I have a hobbyist VMS CD, if I can find it. It's been suggested to me that the easiest way to install would be to install VMS onto SIMH on my PC, netboot the VAXstation off the simulated VAX and install from one to the other. This sounds moderately hairy to me. I'm not a VMS virgin but I've not used it in 15y or so and I've never installed a machine from scratch - I just did day-to-day sysop duties. Is this likely to be correct? That a 3100/38 won't be able to boot from CD? If it can, what sort of CD-ROM drive will I need? Do I need the special 512KB block support that SPARCstations are supposed to need? I have an old external Apple drive (CD300, I think) that I hope will do, if I can come up with the right permutations of SCSI cables to connect it... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 30 10:32:06 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:32:06 -0400 Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070930153206.DEF1ABA45B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > A friend forwarded this message to me and I agreed to post it. > Please note that she's an archivist and not a collector: >> Why would a character who's 27 years old say he'd >> developed a video game on a TRS80 when he attended >> Stanford? He's a home-micro oriented retrocomputerist? He's bragging, along the same line as "I had to walk uphill both ways when I was in school..." or the Monty Python routine "There were a hundred and fifty of us living in a cardboard box in the middle of the road!"/"You were lucky! We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank!"? I don't know either show but I wouldn't be surprised for a kid or a sitcom writer to presume that computing began with the TRS-80. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 30 10:35:01 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:35:01 -0400 Subject: Setting up a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070930153501.4F845BA45B4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Liam Proven" wrote: > The two problems I don't currently have answers for are these. > > [1] I don't have a suitable monitor cable. If you don't find one, you can still use a MMJ serial cable/console to boot it. > [2] Friends have commented to me that a VAX of this age won't be able > to boot from CD-ROM. It will, but you'll have to find a SCSI CD-ROM that supports 512 byte blocks. > find it. It's been suggested to me that the easiest way to install > would be to install VMS onto SIMH on my PC, netboot the VAXstation off > the simulated VAX and install from one to the other. This sounds > moderately hairy to me. I'm not a VMS virgin but I've not used it in > 15y or so and I've never installed a machine from scratch - I just did > day-to-day sysop duties. VAXcluster setup isn't hard but I've been doing it for decades and learned all the tricks in the first couple years, so maybe I'm not the guy to judge :-). Tim. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 10:36:35 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:36:35 -0500 Subject: Setting up a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730709300836g7851b0aexffe289b2409a5b6b@mail.gmail.com> On 9/30/07, Liam Proven wrote: > Is this likely to be correct? That a 3100/38 won't be able to boot > from CD? If it can, what sort of CD-ROM drive will I need? Do I need > the special 512KB block support that SPARCstations are supposed to > need? I have an old external Apple drive (CD300, I think) that I hope > will do, if I can come up with the right permutations of SCSI cables > to connect it... My 3100/30 boots fine off the Hobbyist VMS disc using my boots-anything Apple CD300 (aka Sony) drive. It's the one with the removable trays, not built-in. That drive has booted all the Vaxen, SGI, Suns and NeXT machines I have. Painfully slow, but does the job. Some DEChead can correct me on this, but I believe that's also the same drive in DEC's RRD42 as well. -- jht From josefcub at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 10:50:03 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:50:03 -0500 Subject: Setting up a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920709300850w294f2fedka22e62bec32a793b@mail.gmail.com> Liam, On 9/30/07, Liam Proven wrote: > Well, last night, I went and collected my first ever DEC box. It's a > VAXstation 3100/38, bought on eBay for 99p (UK?0.99). > [2] Friends have commented to me that a VAX of this age won't be able > to boot from CD-ROM. Somewhere, I have a hobbyist VMS CD, if I can > find it. It's been suggested to me that the easiest way to install > would be to install VMS onto SIMH on my PC, netboot the VAXstation off > the simulated VAX and install from one to the other. This sounds > moderately hairy to me. I'm not a VMS virgin but I've not used it in > 15y or so and I've never installed a machine from scratch - I just did > day-to-day sysop duties. Congratulations, by the way. :-) I went a slightly different route, lacking an appropriate CD-ROM drive: I installed OpenVMS/VAX 7.2 Hobbyist onto a SIMH disk image, then DD'd the image onto a real SCSI drive in Unix. My 3100 M38 booted off the hard drive and has been quite happy since. Installing from scratch isn't that hard. There are a few tutorials (geared for SIMH) that'll get you started online, like this one: http://www.wherry.com/gadgets/retrocomputing/vax-simh.html ...Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Sep 30 10:51:59 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:51:59 -0600 Subject: Setting up a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46FFC61F.7090704@e-bbes.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Well, last night, I went and collected my first ever DEC box. It's a > VAXstation 3100/38, bought on eBay for 99p (UK?0.99). Good price ;-) > [2] Friends have commented to me that a VAX of this age won't be able > to boot from CD-ROM. Somewhere, I have a hobbyist VMS CD, if I can > find it. They boot from CD just fine. All you have to find is the right CDROM drive. Some could be jumpered to 512k blocks, actually the best experience woth non DEC drives is to use CD-burners. Just try it out. Good luck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 30 10:54:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:54:38 +0100 Subject: Setting up a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709300836g7851b0aexffe289b2409a5b6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730709300836g7851b0aexffe289b2409a5b6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46FFC6BE.2090008@yahoo.co.uk> Jason T wrote: > My 3100/30 boots fine off the Hobbyist VMS disc using my > boots-anything Apple CD300 (aka Sony) drive. You got there first :-) Pulls of drives from old Apple systems seem like a good bet - I've used a few on various machines which need a 512 byte block size. I normally use an Apple CD600, but it isn't quite perfect - some SGI systems don't like it for some reason (others do, as does everything non-SGI I've hooked it up to) Freecycle lists seem awash with old 90's Apple kit free for the asking... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 30 10:58:22 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 08:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070930085311.W42053@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Why would a character who's 27 years old say he'd > developed a video game on a TRS80 when he attended > Stanford? Assuming that there is any truth at all, the use of the phrase "video game" makes it probable that it was a Coco. Assuming that it is entirely fiction, then it is merely what the script writer thinks of as being the first readily available personal computer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 30 11:05:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:05:09 +0100 Subject: EPROM deaths... Message-ID: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk> Is there any kind of common failure mode for EPROMs? I've just had a couple which are refusing to erase - I'm getting repeating patterns of bits which refuse to clear (i.e. go high) under the eraser. Normally they seem to erase in ten minutes, twenty at the most - these pair have had 30 so far. Just wondering whether to keep baking 'em or just toss them because they're junk... (I've managed to find what I did with my nice eraser - but it'll still only erase a couple of chips at once) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 30 11:06:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:06:36 +0100 Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <20070930085311.W42053@shell.lmi.net> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> <20070930085311.W42053@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46FFC98C.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > Assuming that it is entirely fiction, then it is merely what the script > writer thinks of as being the first readily available personal computer. Wasn't there a thread about that on here a few months back? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 30 11:13:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FFC98C.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> <20070930085311.W42053@shell.lmi.net> <46FFC98C.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070930091025.X42053@shell.lmi.net> > > Assuming that it is entirely fiction, then it is merely what the script > > writer thinks of as being the first readily available personal computer. On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Wasn't there a thread about that on here a few months back? recurring periodically forever. It all comes down to how the definition is worded. "Northstar, because that was the only computer store in MY neighborhood", etc. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 30 11:31:37 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:31:37 -0700 Subject: Who was putting together the TSX+ archive? Message-ID: <46FFCF69.7070401@bitsavers.org> > Is this already in the archive, or would it be useful? Lyle Bickley was putting together the software archive unfortunately, he's no longer subscribed here. The TSX docs are under pdf/dec/pdp11/tsxPlus and I have some manuals scanned from Feb 84. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 30 11:31:47 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:31:47 -0700 Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 11:21 PM -0700 9/29/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >A friend forwarded this message to me and I agreed to post it. >Please note that she's an archivist and not a collector: > >"I tried posting this elsewhere but other than one >reply that some schools have old computers around, >nobody's come up with a good explanation. I think the best explanation is that American TV is absolute rubbish. The TV writers are hacks, who only write for the clueless brain-dead masses (which sadly seems to sum up the American public). Trying to make sense of TV's portrayal of computers is a waste of time. Just look at computers in any episode of CSI. I have the misfortune of seeing most episodes of CSI, and it appears CSI:NY's set designers have decided to toss out any pretense of accuracy, and gone full on into Sci-Fi. Not knowing the show (and not caring to), my hand-wave of an explanation would be the guy had the computer around when he was a little kid and took it to college with him. He might have written software for it just for fun. This works best if he came from a background of poverty, which since Stanford is mentioned seems unlikely. BTW, in this area, I've seen a grand total of 5 TRS-80's of various vintage. Two of those the Library just received as part of the donation last week, one of those, a CoCo, might be the first that has enough pieces to actually be usable. The only system I've found less possible to get up and running in any form are Atari Computers. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 30 11:41:35 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:41:35 +0100 Subject: EPROM deaths... In-Reply-To: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46FFD1BF.4040900@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Is there any kind of common failure mode for EPROMs? I've just had a > couple which are refusing to erase - I'm getting repeating patterns of > bits which refuse to clear (i.e. go high) under the eraser. Off the top of my head: - Stuck address lines (a given address line has no effect on the output of the EPROM) - Stuck data outputs (a given data line is always low or always high) - Failed memory cells (a given cell has the same value, even after repeated erasing) I'd be inclined to just dump them, with a spot of hammer-assisted destruction first. At least the latter ensures they won't creep back into your parts bin at some later date, ready to cause more trouble... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 29 08:03:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:03:50 -0400 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? Message-ID: <0JP400J4YS8JNJE5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? > From: "Dan Snyder" > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:32:23 -0400 > To: > >To all, > >I have monitored the postings and know of a few collectors of VAXen, all types it seems. The >PDP family is popular too. What about Alphaservers? some are by classic definition at least >10 years old such as the 1000/1000A and 1200 series. Alphastations definitely qualify like the >200/250/255/500 series. I collect most of the Alpha family as I use them frequently. OpenVMS >and Digital Unix is the OS of choice. I collect Qbus PDP-11s and MicroVAX and also have a selection of 3100 series machines (VAXserver and microVAX). OS for the Vaxen are OVMS5.4, V7.3 and also Ultrix4.2. OS for the PDP-11s is RT11, RSTS and unixV6. Never considered Alpha as they are too recent for me. If I had one it would be in daily service. Allison From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Sep 29 12:39:27 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:39:27 -0400 Subject: Catweasel NorthStar / Catweasel Heath? Message-ID: <001a01c802bf$b00229c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am still working on Catweasel NorthStar project and making good progress. The program can now make images of SSSD, SSDD, DSDD, and those troublesome "mixed density" disks. There are still a few minor bugs to resolve and another round of testing to go through. However, I am planning on soon releasing the code for an initial round of testing. Since the CWNS program is only going to appeal to a very limited audience, the first rounds of code release and testing will be done on the NorthStar_Computers Yahoo Group. If you would like to participate, please join us at: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthStar_Computers/ I believe the CWNS program is finally coming together and I am considering the next project. The Heath H89 computer using H-17 disk controller uses the same media as the NorthStar (10 sector 5.25" hard sector floppy disks) and in some superficial ways are similar to the NorthStar SSSD disk so this seems like a logical next choice. I would like to extend the concept of CWNS to include Heath hard sector disks (i.e. Catweasel Heath, CWH) My theory is the main difference between CWNS and CWH will be the bit stream decoding logic. The H-17 disk format is entirely different than the NorthStar MDS-A series disks. However, the disk format is documented here: http://davidwallace2000.home.comcast.net/h8/project8080_archive/design_h17.h tml#format A major problem with this plan is I do not have an H89 or any Heath formatted disks. I am seeking a partner to collaborate on this project. If someone would send me some Heath formatted hard sector disks, I will start the investigating whether a Catweasel Heath program is feasible. Please do not send irreplaceable originals or critical data disks. I need working disks you can afford to either lose or be damaged as a result of testing the software. Please contact me offline or reply to this message if you are willing to help out. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Sep 30 12:01:51 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:01:51 -0700 Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46FFD67F.5020808@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >A friend forwarded this message to me and I agreed to post it. >Please note that she's an archivist and not a collector: > > I suspect that whoever consults with the writing team pulled out TRS-80 as a term that people watching the story would recognize as an early PC. The writers are telling a story in 43 minutes of air time and try as they can to get this point across. Also it is possible that the producers or directors changed it if the computer has to be used on camera, regardless of accuracy. Someone elsewhere in this thread mentions that they have gone full scifi with accuracy. This is again because they are storytelling, not filming a doumentary. Sadly the writer and a lot of people who watch CSI think they are presenting the "real" story of forensic science capabilities which they are not. There clearly is no good explanation for the tv writer as far as any real explanation. I strongly suspect the producers and people on set, or clueless friends of the writers for the original mention. I would think that they should have said Nintendo or Gameboy or such, but noone mentioned it during filming if they wanted something that could have been possible. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 30 12:13:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:13:41 -0700 Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46FF76D5.3818.5B68A15A@cclist.sydex.com> Personally, while the chronology offered is full of beans--I saw the opening show in question (I thought it was terrible). A younger co- worker in the computer support department ("Nerd Herd") of a big-box store says "You wrote (fill-in-the-blank) for the TRS-80?". Nope, not likely at all. But it's a matter of cachet. After all, a Mac and a PC are conceptually (at least in the popular sense) the same machines they were at their debut--seamlessly evolved to whatever it is we have now, but still a Mac and a PC. "5150" or "Peanut" means nothing to the overwhelming bulk of the population. The TRS-80, however, is a mastodon--extinct and therefore, unique. And common enough that some Gen-X-ers and Boomers and a few young folks may actually remember them. Forget that time has been telescoped terribly. An Amiga might have done just as well in the script as well as a C-64. After all, "Back to the Future" didn't use a Honda Civic, it used a DMC-12, right? They're both roughly contemporaneous. The De Lorean is exotic and extinct. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 30 12:21:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:21:49 -0700 Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FFD67F.5020808@msm.umr.edu> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com>, <46FFD67F.5020808@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46FF78BD.23691.5B7012B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2007 at 10:01, jim s wrote: > Sadly the writer and a lot of people who watch CSI think they are > presenting the "real" story of forensic science capabilities which they > are not. Those shows have gone way off reality. (30-second DNA searches, etc.). I know several female cops and not one wears a pressed white linen suit with stiletto heels to work. Most tend to wear jeans (if permitted) and comfortable shoes--and none are flawlessly coiffed. It's too bad that scientific and historical accuracy has to be thrown to the wind for these things--but even much of the computer chat seems to be nonsense. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Sep 30 12:35:55 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:35:55 -0400 Subject: VSII/GPX joy (and minor annoyance) In-Reply-To: <20070930100302.259250@gmx.net> References: <20070930100302.259250@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200709301335.55663.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 30 September 2007 06:03, Arno Kletzander wrote: > (Hah...Just in time to join in when vax-ownership is asked!) > > Hello folks, > > my very first DEC computer has arrived - a VAXstation II/GPX in a > BA123 enclosure from Jos Dreesen, which I just brought home from > Switzerland last weekend with the help of my parents. Thanks again! Congrats. > As to mass storage, there is a RX33 floppy drive in the vertical bay > and the system has one HDD frontpanel insert installed. It came with > a dead (possibly revivable) RD53, but a fellow collector also gave me > a supposedly functional one. As others will tell you, dead RD53s are a common occurrence. > I assume the backplane is the original 4x Q/CD, 8x Q/Q thing that > belongs in a BA123 as indicated by the lettering in the cardcage. To > my understanding, this means the grant chain was broken in slot 5 > (after the RQDX3) because there's no board in its CD half. I > rearranged the cards so that the RQDX3 now resides in 4AB, the QDSS > base board is in 5AD and the DELQA in 8CD (I hope I did get that > serpentine configuration right). I think this sounds correct. > After correcting an issue with the cardcage fan (which turned out to > be just the connector inside the fan tray plugged in backwards!), I > hooked up a crufty old laptop as a terminal but didn't get any output > as the selftest always got stuck at "A", which corresponds to a > keyboard/pointing device problem. This is supposedly normal since I > have the VCB02 video option installed but nothing plugged into it. (I > have yet to get myself a DEC keyboard, mouse and the BC18Z splitter > box cable; at the same time, I'll be looking for a TK drive with > controller and any other stuff I can cram in there.) You can always pull out the VCB cardset... > I can get into console I/O mode (chevron prompt) by sending a Break > from the terminal but it's a bit annoying that I don't get to see the > CPU version banner and the test countdown that way. Shorting pins 8 > and 9 on the serial console connector didn't make any difference > either (I have read it will cause some VAXstations to use that as > console instead of the graphics display) - bit of a bummer > considering that any humble SPARCstation who realizes they haven't > got a keyboard attached will start using the serial console. I think that you may need to pull the VCB to get it to use the serial port as the console. > I have read the KA630 User's Guide, especially the meaning of the BBU > RAM contents, and it doesn't look as if there is anything short of > hacking the POST code and burning a new PROM that could be done about > it, but if I have overlooked something, I'm all ears. Other than > that, I'm off now looking for a MOP server and some netbootable OS > image, perhaps NetBSD, for a start... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 30 12:41:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:41:27 -0400 Subject: looking for an IBM 9348 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 30, 2007, at 4:08 AM, john ball wrote: > Well to satisfy my craving for a 9-track tape drive I have decided > to start looking for something I can manage. Yes, I would love a > 3240 or that massive IBM 5360 (system/36?) on the Vintage computer > marketplace but I have to get serious and remember that that kind > of gear weighs too much for a teen like me to ship. > > Anyways, yeah I am looking for an IBM 9348 scsi tape drive. I was > looking into using it in a little IBM 360 emulator that runs on > Ubuntu but mainly it's for bragging rights (Chicks dig guys with > big drives). Now while it is samller it's still hjeavy (if you > alrready have one than you understand me here) so if you want to > part with yours PLEASE promise me that it works before I shell out. > It would be nice to get one locally too. > > Identification photos can be found on the link below. > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IBM9348.html That drive looks suspiciously like an HP 88780. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From w6nct at arrl.net Sun Sep 30 12:40:41 2007 From: w6nct at arrl.net (Vern) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:40:41 -0700 Subject: Catweasel NorthStar / Catweasel Heath? References: <200709301705.l8UH4uxE043821@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002a01c80389$05d6df70$8002a8c0@Win2kLinux> Hi Andrew, I can probably help you with this, if you don't already have a line of volunteers. I'm interested in archiving some "stuff" off my (and my Mom's) old H-89 diskettes before I start disposing of the hardware and excess media. Although most of my personal stuff was saved on soft-sectored 5.25" and 8" media, a small amount of my information (and all of my Mom's) was on the hard-sectored media. We can work out any details off-list. Please contact me directly if interested. <<< vern >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:05 AM Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 74 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 28 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:39:27 -0400 From: "Andrew Lynch" <> Subject: Catweasel NorthStar / Catweasel Heath? To: Message-ID: <001a01c802bf$b00229c0$a903a8c0 at andrewdesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" <<< snip >>> ...next project. The Heath H89 computer using H-17 disk controller uses the same media as the NorthStar (10 sector 5.25" hard sector floppy disks) and in some superficial ways are similar to the NorthStar SSSD disk so this seems like a logical next choice. I would like to extend the concept of CWNS to include Heath hard sector disks (i.e. Catweasel Heath, CWH) My theory is the main difference between CWNS and CWH will be the bit stream decoding logic. The H-17 disk format is entirely different than the NorthStar MDS-A series disks. However, the disk format is documented here: http://davidwallace2000.home.comcast.net/h8/project8080_archive/design_h17.h tml#format A major problem with this plan is I do not have an H89 or any Heath formatted disks. I am seeking a partner to collaborate on this project. If someone would send me some Heath formatted hard sector disks, I will start the investigating whether a Catweasel Heath program is feasible. Please do not send irreplaceable originals or critical data disks. I need working disks you can afford to either lose or be damaged as a result of testing the software. Please contact me offline or reply to this message if you are willing to help out. Thanks! Andrew Lynch End of cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 74 ************************************** From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Sep 30 12:47:37 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:47:37 +0200 Subject: Setting up a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709300828w1eac85cevaba461c9fda6a778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070930194737.2dc7f8e9@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:28:18 +0100 "Liam Proven" wrote: > [1] I don't have a suitable monitor cable. It is not hard to construct. The VAXstation 3100 has a DA15 with RGB analog video output. Every multisync monitor, that can understand sync on green, will do the job. The pinout is somthere on the net. IIRC there are three pins for RGB and a separate pin for mono-video. If you don't have a color frame buffer (GPX or SPX) just connect the mono output to the green channel of the monitor. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 30 12:51:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:51:40 +0100 Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <20070930091025.X42053@shell.lmi.net> References: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> <20070930085311.W42053@shell.lmi.net> <46FFC98C.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> <20070930091025.X42053@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46FFE22C.8090901@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Assuming that it is entirely fiction, then it is merely what the script >>> writer thinks of as being the first readily available personal computer. > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Wasn't there a thread about that on here a few months back? > > recurring periodically forever. > It all comes down to how the definition is worded. > "Northstar, because that was the only computer store in MY neighborhood", > etc. And even then people normally get it wrong, because someone, somewhere will have done something which fits their definition - often without the finances, marketing and media coverage which makes it mainstream and raises awareness of their work. The annoying thing is that the historians and researchers so often screw it up too - or at the very least dress up their work in hype which loses the 'probably' / 'possibly' / 'amongst the' wording which conveys a more accurate picture of what they've found. Sorry... pet peeve of mine :-) J. From w6nct at arrl.net Sun Sep 30 12:51:19 2007 From: w6nct at arrl.net (Vern) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:51:19 -0700 Subject: Motorola S-record converter source for new project References: <200709271700.l8RH03Ni001876@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003101c8038a$828d07f0$8002a8c0@Win2kLinux> Hi Robert; I am not familiar with the particular program you refer to; but I used to have a couple similar programs to convert S-records. If you like, I can look around and see if I can find one or more for you; or maybe even some documentation. As I recall, the last time I messed with it, I just wrote a quick TCL script to convert the few record-types I needed. Many times, that is easier than writing a comprehensive converter. Do you know which record formats you need converted? <<< vern >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:00 AM Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 68 ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:40:40 +0200 From: Robert Mounier Subject: Motorola S-record converter source for new project To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <006901c80042$d6a072a0$45474c56 at BARCO> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hello, On internet I found a chat where you write about Lilbug.asm. Could you please help me to findinformation about it. Many years ago I used to work with 6801L1 coming with LILbug monitor. Today I still have few pieces, but I no longer have any documentation about the monitor. Could you help me to find an user manual of the LILbug or more simply the list and syntax for the commands and addresses of the routines (like conversion Hexa-Ascii and so.). In advance many thanks for your answer. ------------------------------ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 30 12:57:26 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:57:26 +0100 Subject: EPROM deaths... In-Reply-To: <46FFD1BF.4040900@philpem.me.uk> References: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk> <46FFD1BF.4040900@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46FFE386.6090700@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Is there any kind of common failure mode for EPROMs? I've just had a >> couple which are refusing to erase - I'm getting repeating patterns of >> bits which refuse to clear (i.e. go high) under the eraser. > > Off the top of my head: > - Stuck address lines (a given address line has no effect on the > output of the EPROM) > - Stuck data outputs (a given data line is always low or always high) > - Failed memory cells (a given cell has the same value, even after > repeated erasing) Hmm, makes sense. One of the chips was all over the place; lots of 0xBF that would never go to 0xFF and chunks of 0x80's all over the address range (didn't look to be tied to a particular address line, though). The other chip was jammed consistently at 0xF0, so looks like a simple data output failure. > I'd be inclined to just dump them, with a spot of hammer-assisted > destruction first. Done. I just threw another couple of chips into the eraser and they're fine - I'm just getting a bit low on 27128's these days. First time I've ever had any bad ones, though... cheers Jules From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Sep 30 13:03:37 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:03:37 +0200 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? In-Reply-To: <001101c80230$34685e40$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <001101c80230$34685e40$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <20070930200337.7c0f580f@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:32:23 -0400 "Dan Snyder" wrote: > I have monitored the postings and know of a few collectors of VAXen, > all types it seems. The PDP family is popular too. What about > Alphaservers? I don't "collect" Alphas in that sense, but I like to grab them, if they come across my way. At the moment I have: DEC3000 600 and 300X, Alphastation 200/166 (my first Alpha) and a PWS 500au. The PWS 500au run Tru64 and was my main desktop for two years. Now it runs NetBSD, like the other Alphas, since I switched my desktop to a SGI Octane... I also owned these machines: EB164 based machine: Gave it to a friend who had a better use for it. It was almost idle when I owned it. AlphaStation 600 and an AlphaServer 1000: Did never anything real with them. So I soled them at the VCF Europa flea market. AplhaServer 2000: Gave it to a friend when I got an... AlphaServer 2100: Gave it to a friend after I had "played" enough with it. It was unpowered for quite some time and he Tru64-clustered it with an other 2100... I still would like to get my hands on some multi-EV6-CPU machine... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 30 13:18:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:18:58 -0700 Subject: EPROM deaths... In-Reply-To: <46FFE386.6090700@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk>, <46FFD1BF.4040900@philpem.me.uk>, <46FFE386.6090700@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46FF8622.3863.5BA468C4@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2007 at 18:57, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I'd be inclined to just dump them, with a spot of hammer-assisted > > destruction first. I'd try baking a couple first. If they're headed for the landfill anyway, why not? It seems to me that you could occasionally bring one back to life in the old days. Maybe a couple of hours at, say, 85C? Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Sep 30 13:50:11 2007 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:50:11 -0700 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? In-Reply-To: <001101c80230$34685e40$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> References: <001101c80230$34685e40$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> Message-ID: <46FFEFE3.7090601@crash.com> Dan Snyder wrote: > > Enough for now, let me and/or the group what you have. Maybe we can form some sort of > list for contact and advice or maybe part swapping. I want to thank you for sending out this request, Dan. Because having written this out I now realize what a sick, sick man I am. ;^) This isn't quite all the DEC stuff I have, and this doesn't even touch on the DG, SGI, Sun, and other gear. What the hell am I doing with all this stuff? Sigh... There are a few LSI-11's, which I might as well mention. I've got a VT103 (integrated 4-slot Qbus) with a big tabletop storage box - 8" HDD and QIC24 tape. There's my trusty PDT-11/150, which come to think of it was probably my first retrocomputing acquisition back in 1988. A full MicroPDP-11/73 boardset that I bought with a BA123, and numerous Qbus cards. Oh yeah, there's a functioning Pro-350, and an untested VAXconsole/Pro-380. And the pdp-11/44 with RA60 that I picked up for somebody who never collected it. And there's that big triple-Qbus backplane rackmount box, in which I figured I could build up a couple of these J-11 and LSI-11/2 boardsets. A questionable RX02 subsystem came with that. I've got a couple of whole VAXen: 11/730, uVAX 2000, 3400, 4000/500, and VS3100m38. Ah, well, except I junked the 730's failing R80 -- it was 1990, I was young and foolish and didn't think about running out of UNIBUS slots... At least one full KA655 boardset (CPU+RAM+KFQSA) to upgrade the 3400 or go in the BA123. A KA690 to go in the 4000. Oh, and an InfoServer 150, which is a CVAX in sheep's clothing. Should I include the DECstation 5000/200, DS5000/240 and the DS5000/260? There's a DS3100 that accrued somewhere in there too. And finally the Alphas. A DECstation 3000/300LX, the model I used to build firewalls out of back in 1995. An AlphaStation 1200 that I hadn't been able to get to POST. A MicroWay 4U 600MHz 21164 of some description. A PC164LX board with CPU and RAM that I hadn't built up. One big beautiful AlphaServer 4000 who's config I don't recall, in the original blue pedestal packaging. And one bare AS4100 SBB with (I think) 4 x 533 MHz CPUs that I meant to swap into the pedestal, as I'd rather have the two additional CPUs than the extra I/O backplane of the 4000. Oh, and a PWS 500au kicking around somewhere. What would I still like to have at some point? I'd still like to get a 21264 SMP system, preferably with CPUs of 1GHz or so. An ES45 would be fine for this, but the prices have a way to go before that will happen. Maybe that'll give me time to figure out a good way to overlay the Compaq logo with Digital... --Steve. From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Sep 30 13:49:51 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:49:51 -0400 Subject: vintagecomputer.net update - IMSAI video and more. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070930144934.02e75370@mail.degnanco.net> Hi - I have updated my web site with some new information and pictures http://www.vintagecomputer.net The Community Memory Project The People's Computer Company Original Parody Cartoon: Fortran Man (with Billy BASIC) Core Memory for S-100? INFOREX Core Memory Controller with DATARAM installed Assembling IMSAI 8080 and Wonderbus Thinker Toys repair project (capacitor blow-outs) IMSAI 8080 and Solos / Cutter youtube.com VIDEO (more progress on the system Bill S worked with me to restore) Original Macintosh restoration project Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 30 14:11:09 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:11:09 -0700 Subject: EPROM deaths... In-Reply-To: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:05:09 +0100> From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> To: > Subject: EPROM deaths...> > > Is there any kind of common failure mode for EPROMs? I've just had a couple > which are refusing to erase - I'm getting repeating patterns of bits which > refuse to clear (i.e. go high) under the eraser.> > Normally they seem to erase in ten minutes, twenty at the most - these pair > have had 30 so far. Just wondering whether to keep baking 'em or just toss > them because they're junk...> > (I've managed to find what I did with my nice eraser - but it'll still only > erase a couple of chips at once)> > cheers> > Jules> Hi The most common problem I've seen that causes this is just poor contact with the programmer. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 30 14:23:14 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:23:14 -0400 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: <46FDA13C.3050103@mindspring.com> References: <46FDA13C.3050103@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <46FFF7A2.4040005@compsys.to> >Don North wrote: > Actually I never said anything about writable, only that some > words were being used as both data and instructions. See > > http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/23-767A9/23-767A9.lst > > on lines 59-79 for what I mean. This is the only boot prom that > I've seen that plays any tricks like this; all the others are > pretty straightforward code. > > Funny that the boot prom had to do such strange things to interface > to the 'most intelligent' controller (MSCP), whereas all the other > dumb controllers (RK05, etc) used really simple boot code sequences. Jerome Fine replies: That 'most intelligent" controller (MSCP) was supposed to be needed to handle large disk drives. The HD: interface (under Ersatz-11) has the capability of handling 2 TB disk drives and is probably the "dumbest" (perhaps cleanest and most easily implemented would be better) controller that I have ever had the pleasure of writing code for. The MSCP interface seems to be much more complex than is actually needed. Since I have been successful in producing a working device driver based on the HD: interface used in Ersatz-11 for a 22 bit Qbus emulation under RT11XM, I have also discovered just how much additional overhead must be present with MSCP code vs the "dumb" HD: interface. As for the size of the code needed to support MSCP, I haven't, as yet, started to use a translation table which DU(X).SYS supports, but the single RT-11 partition version which I first developed to replace VMX.SYS (which has a LOADed code footprint of just 87 words) is considerably smaller and much faster (3 times the speed of VM: and 2 times the speed of DU:), mostly because far fewer instructions need to be executed in the device driver for an I/O transfer. Note that the original version of the HD: device driver John Wilson wrote in 1995 worked well with unmapped monitors (RT11SJ and RT11FB), but since it did not support 22 bit Qbus usage, it did not function very well using PDP-11/73 emulation when I was using RT11XM running under Ersatz-11. A post that I just made recently compared how long it takes to copy an RT-11 MSCP 32 MB partitions vs an RT-11 HD: 32 MB partitions. Since the overhead should have been averaged out over many blocks per read / write request and the actual transfer of data been about the same, I was initially VERY surprised to observe that an MSCP copy took much more than twice as long or much more than 2 seconds vs just about 1 second per 32 MB copy using the HD: device driver. On the other hand, even the overhead of using an EMT request in RT-11 must be substantial since when subroutine code that is in user space (i.e. does not use an EMT request) is used, the speed of a transfer is again twice as fast as using the device driver. It takes only about 0.5 seconds to copy a 32 MB RT-11 partition using subroutines in user space. Based on the code in the MSCP device driver in RT-11, it is very obvious that MSCP code does MUCH more than in the HD: device driver. Under MSCP, there is also MUCH more code (I am finally responding directly to Dan's observation) that needs to be executed. On the other hand, under HD: all that is required is to transfer the word count, block number and buffer address to the IOPAGE registers (well the physical unit number as well which actually takes more instructions than any of the other variables since the 4 bits of the unit number are also in the CSR) and initiate the transfer. So the reason that Dan notes that the MSCP interface needed so much more code than the other so-called "dumb" controllers seems (in my opinion) because MSCP is just far more complex than it needs to be to accomplish the same result that HD: manages to produce with much less code and much less overhead. The statement that MSCP is an intelligent controller and that the other controllers are "dumb" is, therefore, perhaps correct in that the MSCP interface is able to handle very large disk drives. But the unnecessary overhead of MSCP that compares with the same capability of managing disk drives of up to 2 TB with HD: seems to indicate that a simple dumb interface can be much more efficient as well as easier to use - and take much less code to implement and time to execute. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Sep 30 14:32:06 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:32:06 -0700 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen Message-ID: <0113a0fb781ac637779b1087d970a40d@valleyimplants.com> > > Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? > From: "Dan Snyder" > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:32:23 -0400 > To: > > To all, > > I have monitored the postings and know of a few collectors of VAXen, > all types it seems. The > PDP family is popular too. What about Alphaservers? some are by > classic definition at least > 10 years old such as the 1000/1000A and 1200 series. Alphastations > definitely qualify like the > 200/250/255/500 series. I collect most of the Alpha family as I use > them frequently. I have a 3000/300X, AS1000A 5/333, VX42 Multia, EB164-based-system, and an AlphaServer 2100 4/275RM that's probably going to be parted out (too big, I have no racks, and periodically I have to open it up and tap on the CBUS-I/O backplane connection). If anyone's interested . . . Alphas are nice machines, fast, interesting, and SRM is nice and pretty standard, so no more "what's the console support on this model?" moments. Bad side - WNT and the NT-only models. Half-flash can make for some fun times, too, but the only machine I have with half-flash is the EB164. The one I've had the most problems with is probably the VX42 - for some reason, when the PROMs are loaded with the OVMS-capable SRM and the battery dies, it will not come back up until the PROMS are re-flashed to the old Multia firmware and updated again. This took some figuring out... I have a brace of VAXen, too (one 3100/76 and one 4000/200), both of which are run off of serial (there really isn't much of a reason to have graphics on a VAX anyway). My biggest surprise was the fact that the 4k (SOC, 5VUPS) is often as responsive as the 3100/76 (Rigel, 7.6 VUPS). I wouldn't advise a Qbus-based machine for a first-timer, since disks are hard to come by (fortunately Boeing had a HSD-05 in their $5 bin that I was able to hack up into the BA430 chassis. For some reason the disks don't register sometimes at first power-on- perhaps I need to wire in a reset button for the HSD- I'm not sure there). > OpenVMS > and Digital Unix are the OS of choice. > Naturally :-) . From drb at msu.edu Sun Sep 30 14:42:47 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:42:47 -0400 Subject: pdp 11 boot rom 23-E39A9 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:54:38 BST.) References: Message-ID: <200709301942.l8UJglV0007950@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Anyway, I cna't beleive there's much use for a boot ROM that boots the > device once, and then has to be replaced (remember these are > fusible-link ROMs, they can't be erased). The Decretary will disavow any knowledge... De From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 30 14:43:41 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:43:41 -0700 Subject: Catweasel NorthStar / Catweasel Heath? In-Reply-To: <002a01c80389$05d6df70$8002a8c0@Win2kLinux> References: <200709301705.l8UH4uxE043821@dewey.classiccmp.org> <002a01c80389$05d6df70$8002a8c0@Win2kLinux> Message-ID: Hi Vern There is a way to transfer the images in a readable form other than using the catweasel. The problem with the catweasel is that one still needs to convert the bit transitions to something more meaningful. If you have a serial board on the H89, a serial cable with the correct genders and a PC that can boot to DOS ( not windows running DOS ), you can use my tool. Once you have that, it is not all that had to extract the files. Dwight > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:40:41 -0700> From: w6nct at arrl.net> To: lynchaj at yahoo.com> CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Catweasel NorthStar / Catweasel Heath?> > Hi Andrew,> > I can probably help you with this, if you don't already have a line of> volunteers.> > I'm interested in archiving some "stuff" off my (and my Mom's) old H-89> diskettes before I start disposing of the hardware and excess media.> Although most of my personal stuff was saved on soft-sectored 5.25" and 8"> media, a small amount of my information (and all of my Mom's) was on the> hard-sectored media.> > We can work out any details off-list. Please contact me directly if> interested.> > <<< vern >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:05 AM> Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 74> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 28> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:39:27 -0400> From: "Andrew Lynch" <>> Subject: Catweasel NorthStar / Catweasel Heath?> To: > Message-ID: <001a01c802bf$b00229c0$a903a8c0 at andrewdesktop>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"> > <<< snip >>>> > ...next project. The Heath H89 computer using H-17 disk controller uses> the same media as the NorthStar (10 sector 5.25" hard sector floppy disks)> and in some superficial ways are similar to the NorthStar SSSD disk so this> seems like a logical next choice. I would like to extend the concept of> CWNS to include Heath hard sector disks (i.e. Catweasel Heath, CWH)> > My theory is the main difference between CWNS and CWH will be the bit stream> decoding logic. The H-17 disk format is entirely different than the> NorthStar MDS-A series disks. However, the disk format is documented here:> > http://davidwallace2000.home.comcast.net/h8/project8080_archive/design_h17.h> tml#format> > A major problem with this plan is I do not have an H89 or any Heath> formatted disks. I am seeking a partner to collaborate on this project. If> someone would send me some Heath formatted hard sector disks, I will start> the investigating whether a Catweasel Heath program is feasible.> > Please do not send irreplaceable originals or critical data disks. I need> working disks you can afford to either lose or be damaged as a result of> testing the software. Please contact me offline or reply to this message if> you are willing to help out.> > Thanks!> > Andrew Lynch> > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 74> **************************************> _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From scrappylaptop at yahoo.com Sun Sep 30 14:44:02 2007 From: scrappylaptop at yahoo.com (Scrappy Laptop) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FEDE0F.21577.5913DD92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <311281.52164.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: The show is Chuck on which premiered on NBC this week and the question is: Why would a character who's 27 years old say he'd developed a video game on a TRS80 when he attended Stanford? I think part of the problem is that the term, "video game" as it is used today means graphics and physics engines that tax a fully loaded dual-core, 64-bit system with an equally powerful video card. "Developing" a "video game" on the TRS-80 (assuming a Model I) meant using BASIC to throw black-and-white, character-based graphics onto the screen. As I recall, it was what you tried right after you got bored with asking the user for input and using the value entered to display some other value on the screen, but before you attempted to simulate arrays. I also recall it involving a lot of POKE-ing. My point is, I could posit an undergrad computer geek that learned BASIC as a grade-schooler finding an old TRS-80 and seeing how far he could push it, just for fun. However, for another character to say something on the order of, "Wow, you wrote 'xyz' ?" would require the program to be written during the TRS-80's heyday in order to gain the assumed notoriety, something that does not fit the timeline. Then again, it's fiction; you are required to suspend disbelief. The writer's job is to make sure that too many of the viewers don't have to suspend *too much* disbelief. Obviously we are not the target audience, that's all. Now I have to dig out my old Model-1 and see if it still fires up. I had *plans* for today, darnit! -Scrappy --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 12:37:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:37:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <001d01c802e7$d08fb900$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Sep 29, 7 07:26:23 pm Message-ID: > > > problems caused by extra components [ask if you want to know _that_ > > story], and aligning those wonderful voice-coil floppy drives... OK, I bought a QX10 at a radio rally (hamfest), and the seller threw in an extra CPU box which he said didn't work properly, but it might be useful for spares. Well, of course, ard being ard, I decided to find out just what was wrong with this spare machine. The PSU checked out fine, so I fired it up. It seemed to boot OK, but after a bit of screen scrolling the display got terribly corrupted. I forget the exact details, but I think the text appeared in the wrong part of the screen, stuff that had scrolled off came back in strange locations, and so on. It looked like a video RAM problem. Now the QX10 has a daughterboard containing all the video circuitry, it contains an 7220, a gate array for the actual dot shifting/combining (early versions have TTL logic chips for this...), a character generator ROM, a bit of TTL and 16 DRAM chips. According to the techref, the last can be either 4116s (16K) or 4164s (64K), there are links on the board to select which type are in use. I checked, everything was set correctly. The board had 4164s on it, all the links were in the '64K' postiion. So, being young and foolish, I replaced the complete set of (socketed) DRAMs, intending to put the originals back until I'd found the one that was playing up. No, that made no difference. Nor (as I said I was young and foolisH) did temporarilu replacing the 7220 and gate array with the ones from the good machine. And the ones from the defective machine worked fine in the 'good' machine. So I had to think about it. I decided to see what the RAM size links did, these are shown on the schematic. One of them connected pin one of all the DRAMs to -5V, or left it floating. Another connected pin 8 of all the DRAMs to +12V or +5V And another connected pin 9 of all the DRAMs to +5V or an address output from the logic. Suddenly, it hit me. Not shown on the schematic, but present on the board, were decoupling capacitors. And pin 9 of the DRAM array had 8 or so decoupling caps, 0.1uF each, between it and ground. Fine if 4116s were fitted and that pin was a +5V supply. Not so good if it was a logic-level signal. That extra capacitance added a ridiculous delay to that address line. So I desoldered the capacitors. With all the original chips in the board, the machine sprang to life and worked fine. Presumably a previous owner had replaced 4116s with 4164s, either to get the higher video RAM capacity, or because one of the former had failed and he only had the latter. He'd correctly re-set the links, but hadn't realised about the decoupling capacitors. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 30 15:10:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:10:58 +0100 Subject: 80s video game markets... Message-ID: <470002D2.7080408@yahoo.co.uk> Random mutterings... I was just thinking earlier how huge the UK computer game market was in the 80s - and yet most of the titles were produced by UK people for the UK market, and presumably never exported elsewhere. Other countries presumably followed the same pattern - and there must be games which were huge in one country and relatively unheard of anywhere else. Which sort-of raised the question of whether anyone's ever tried to 'map' the 80s video game industry by popularity in each country? Like I said, random mutterings. I'm just curious what was going on elsewhere while us UK lot were playing Frak, Manic Miner, Repton, Monty Mole etc... :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 12:51:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:51:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Coco keyboards In-Reply-To: <200709292359.l8TNx0Cu023103@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 29, 7 07:54:25 pm Message-ID: > I think you are thinking of the last CoCo1 version, which came with 64k > and in a full sized white case. It did have the same keyboard as early CoCo2s. > They are a little uncommon. I have one of these, and a photo on my site sitting > beside the more recognized silver CoCo1. Ah, right... I assume all CoCo1s had the older design of processor board with things like discrete resistors for the DAC, while all CoCo 2's had the 2 ASICs, one contianing the DAC, analogue mux, comparator, etc, the other containing the cassette relay driver, 5V regulator controller and RS232 level shifters. > > Early TRS-80 CoCo2s had the same (or at least very similar) keyboard, which > later changed to more sculpted full sized keys, which continued into the CoCo3. OK... I got into the CoCo relatively late, when they were being sold off by Tandy over here. All the machines I saw were late CoCo 2s... I liked them so much (6809 processor and OS-9) that I ended up buying a CoCo3 from the States and replacing the power transformer to run it off 240V mains. So I've proably only seen the later keyboards. -tonuy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 12:47:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:47:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 29, 7 05:07:15 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Sep 2007 at 23:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Well, if I wanted a fast PC, I'd buy a fast PC. But if I want to > > experience a QX10, I'll use a QX10, and have all the fun of tracing video > > problems caused by extra components [ask if you want to know _that_ > > story], and aligning those wonderful voice-coil floppy drives... > > I'm more interested in the software. Much of it was implemented in > Forth and there were some very interesting aspects of the > implementation. Ah, I was momentarily forgetting Valdocs. My QX10 came with CP/M and that's all I've ever run on it. I find it's a pretty nice CP/M box, actually.... > > For my purposes, an accurate emulator is just as good (or even > better) than the original. I don't need to worry about flakey > components, or out-of-adjustment drives. I can run multiple sessions To be fair, I've had a lot more problems with 'flakey components and out-of-adjustment drives' on modern PCs (not mine I hasten to add..), and indeed software problems, than on any classic I own. > for comparison and even hack the emulator code to trap what I'm > interested in. Isn't that what logic analysers are for :-) (Note the smiley...) > As far as "recreating the experience", I honestly don't think it' > possible without the use of hynotism and some psychoactive drugs. Probably not. The alternative perspective is that I enjoy tracking down faults. To be honest, a classic computer that works fine, and that I fully understand the hardware of, is of less interest to me than one where I either have to find and oscure logic fault, or have to work out how it really works (possibly to be able to find said fault). Pointless. Probably. It's like solving any puzzle... > I don't really care if it's implemented with chicken nuggets and used > chewing gum--as long as it works and runs the software I'm interested > in. Ah well... I'm a hardware guy to the core (literally :-)). Microcode is OK, machine code is getting far too close to 'software' for my liking. > > So, hang me for a heretic. :) Not at all... Just a different interest, that's all -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 15:30:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:30:06 -0600 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen In-Reply-To: <0113a0fb781ac637779b1087d970a40d@valleyimplants.com> References: <0113a0fb781ac637779b1087d970a40d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: > Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? > From: "Dan Snyder" > > > > I have monitored the postings and know of a few collectors of VAXen, > > all types it seems.... What about Alphaservers? I have a DEC 4000 (Futurebus+, 1 CPU installed approx 384MB RAM, IIRC), and a "no-name" AXPpci33. My DEC 4000 came with one 5.25" SCSI drive and 3 3.5" SCSI drives, with OSF/1 or similar on one disk, and OpenVMS on another. I bought the AXPpci33 as a bare board, but the DEC 4000 came from Uni Surplus and used to be known as "Oscar", the machine that ran the card catalog for the library system at The Ohio State University. I like the machine, but I have to admit, I bought it because it had a TSZ07 SCSI 9-track drive included. Given my druthers, I'd run OpenVMS on the AXPpci33, but it was really designed for Windows NT or OSF/1. I think there are driver issues trying to run OpenVMS on it, but it may be possible with some extended fiddling. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 30 15:51:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:51:03 -0700 Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <46FE8643.12974.57BCE985@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 29, 7 05:07:15 pm, Message-ID: <46FFA9C7.7197.5C2FA6A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2007 at 18:47, Tony Duell wrote: > Ah, I was momentarily forgetting Valdocs. My QX10 came with CP/M and > that's all I've ever run on it. I find it's a pretty nice CP/M box, > actually.... Having cut my teeth on CP/M 1.30, I'm surprised that it lasted as long as it did. Consider that it couldn't organize large volumes well and couldn't even track the length of a file to anything closer than 128 bytes. It WAS fairly small, but even that went away with CP/M 3.0/CP/M Plus. Something like the QX-10's Valdocs/TP/M interests me, particularly the Forth implementation and the supplemental facilities, such as the indexer. I'm writing an archiver to convert my QX-10 diskettes to the .D88 format that the emulator needs. While perusing information on the .D88 file format, I discovered an entire new world of Japanese NEC 9801 enthusiasts, complete with emulators and an operating system called GR-DOS. From what I can gather, the 9801 was very popular with Japanese gamers. > Ah well... I'm a hardware guy to the core (literally :-)). Microcode is > OK, machine code is getting far too close to 'software' for my liking. You must LOVE PPGAs then... :) Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 30 16:30:24 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:30:24 -0700 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen In-Reply-To: References: <0113a0fb781ac637779b1087d970a40d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: Lets see... Most people around here probably know that DEC is my primary area of interest. PDP-8: PDP-8/e PDP-8/m some spares PDP-10: Emulated only PDP-11: PDP-11/03 (x3) PDT-11/150 DEC Professional 380 (ex-VAX console) PDP-11/23 PDP-11/23+ (backup PDP-11, SCSI drives) PDP-11/44 PDP-11/73 (main PDP-11, SCSI tape, CD, and drives) lots of spares VAXen: VAXstation II/RC in BA23 (the first) MicroVAX II in BA123 (first running, now a PDP-11/73) MicroVAX III in 3rd party chassis VAXstation 3100/20 VAXstation 4000/vlc (currently in use as DECnet Area router) VAXstation 4000/60 VAXstation 4000/90 several spare BA23's and a spare BA123 for PDP-11 spares lots of spare boards Complete VAX maintenance library on Microfiche Alpha's AlphaStation 200 4/233 (1st, and first running) AlphaStation 200 4/233 Multia (only has been used to run OpenBSD) DEC 3000/300LX DEC AlphaStation 500/333 (only 96MB so not very useful) DEC PWS 433au (even with 1 dead PCI slot I ran this for several years before retiring, it was cheaper than adding RAM to the AS500/333) Compaq XP1000/500 (purchased for cards included with it and spare parts) Compaq XP1000/667 (current primary system) More documentation than is sane for one person to have, even after donating over half of my DEC documentation to the Historical Resource Center (aka library) as the start of a computer history section. A lot of my collection has happened by my progressively upgrading to better hardware when the chance arises. My Sun collection looks a lot like this, starting with a SparcStation 2, I now run a SunBlade 1000, though keep threatening to downgrade to the fully decked out Ultra 60 which generates less heat and is smaller. For SGI I simply have 2 O2's, while it's amazing hardware and OS, there doesn't seem to be any point in getting more. Really all I mess with any more are my main PDP-11, the VS 4000/vlc, and XP1000/667. Lately I've been working on my main Commodore 64 again, and last night I was cleaning and testing the C128 that was donated last week to the Library. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Sep 30 16:42:42 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: looking for an IBM 9348 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Identification photos can be found on the link below. >> http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/IBM9348.html > > That drive looks suspiciously like an HP 88780. Same basic drive, but with a different control panel on it. Also the HP 7980. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 17:20:29 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:20:29 +0100 Subject: Easily Amused... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/29/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > How cool is this domain name? > > http://ami.ga/ It's not quite as cool as this one: http://atari.st ;) Ed. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 30 17:35:31 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:35:31 -0700 Subject: Easily Amused... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:20 PM +0100 9/30/07, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: >On 9/29/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> How cool is this domain name? >> >> http://ami.ga/ > >It's not quite as cool as this one: > >http://atari.st > >;) > >Ed. While I prefer the Amiga (my only Atari is a TT030), I have to agree. :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 30 17:58:21 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:58:21 +0100 Subject: Who was putting together the TSX+ archive? In-Reply-To: <46FFCF69.7070401@bitsavers.org> References: <46FFCF69.7070401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1191193101.26229.1.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 09:31 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > Is this already in the archive, or would it be useful? > > Lyle Bickley was putting together the software archive > unfortunately, he's no longer subscribed here. > > The TSX docs are under pdf/dec/pdp11/tsxPlus > and I have some manuals scanned from Feb 84. I put together a site for the TSX+ stuff and was waiting for the go-ahead to put it live, but then Lyle went silent. Didn't know he'd unsubscribed though. I built the site a while ago, so I'd be inclined to just start again and do it better this time... Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 30 18:01:36 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 00:01:36 +0100 Subject: Easily Amused... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1191193296.26229.5.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 23:20 +0100, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On 9/29/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > How cool is this domain name? > > > > http://ami.ga/ > > It's not quite as cool as this one: > > http://atari.st > Hm. Unfortunately citroen.cx is taken, although I could get citroen.id or citroen.ax if I lived in Denmark. Think citroen.gs might be available too... Sorry, offtopic I know. Gordon From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Sep 30 18:17:32 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:17:32 -0500 Subject: 80s video game markets... In-Reply-To: <470002D2.7080408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <470002D2.7080408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <47002E8C.4000403@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Which sort-of raised the question of whether anyone's ever tried to > 'map' the 80s video game industry by popularity in each country? Not that I'm aware of, but there are definitely organizations that will be tackling it in the future such as the Game Preservation arm of the IGDA). > Like I said, random mutterings. I'm just curious what was going on > elsewhere while us UK lot were playing Frak, Manic Miner, Repton, Monty > Mole etc... :-) Most of what you just mentioned were action platformers for 8-bit micros like the BBC, Spectrum, etc. So it sounds like the UK had a monopoly on 8-bit UK games for 8-bit UK computers :-) In the USA, we had access to less titles but much more variety -- adventures, simulators, racing, wargame strategy, etc. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 30 18:50:44 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: <46FE9EB3.16601.581C5E9D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <696722.22790.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> this is going to sound like a real silly question, and I really should have written it down, but I payed a visit to this guy in S.Jersey that had a bunch of stuff, mostly pretty OT peecee stuff, but he had this one large thing tucked away beneath the rest of the stuff. 3 letters duh System 3000 IIRC (and that's a big if). Can anyone help? He said it did work in a pharmacy, and could connect with the system in France. Oui oui oui. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Sep 2007 at 18:14, Chris M wrote: > > > besides the Poppy Chuck, what vintage beauties do > you > > have "hanging" around the house? > > Some S-100 stuff, including a MITS 8800 and a couple > of other boxes, > A TRS-80 model 16 and, sadly, no Poppies, just two > "loaded" F-85s, > including one with the external 14" disk drive. A > few other mass- > produced odds and ends that I'm aware of, but > nothing that I've > touched in the last 10-15 years. Various > peripherals. > > And the S-100 stuff probably hasn't been touched in > over 25 years, > except to move it. > > Collecting just isn't my thing. Interest in old > technology is. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Sep 30 18:50:17 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:50:17 -0700 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen Message-ID: > I have a DEC 4000 (Futurebus+, 1 CPU installed approx 384MB RAM, > IIRC), and a "no-name" AXPpci33. My DEC 4000 came with one 5.25" SCSI > drive and 3 3.5" SCSI drives, with OSF/1 or similar on one disk, and > OpenVMS on another. DEC 4000/AS8000 have interested me for a while- were there any other commercially available general-purpose computers using the Futurebus+? I know that most AS8ks probably don't have the Futurebus+ adaptor, but it is available. Pity they are so big. > I bought the AXPpci33 as a bare board, but the > DEC 4000 came from Uni Surplus and used to be known as "Oscar", the > machine that ran the card catalog for the library system at The Ohio > State University. "Card Catalog" - ILS (Integrated Library System) please! They do so much more than simple cataloging now. I realized how much of a computer snob I was this week- my school system is considering replacing their current ILS (Dynix Scholar, circa 1988 interface) with either Follett or DynixSirsi. I have a hard time taking Follett seriously because it's Windows-NT only. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 30 18:54:44 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: <46FFC98C.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <806393.39907.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > Assuming that it is entirely fiction, then it is > merely what the script > > writer thinks of as being the first readily > available personal computer. > > Wasn't there a thread about that on here a few > months back? Please don't remind us... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 30 19:02:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 Emulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <306133.27500.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> hey thanks for that. Do you still attend radio rallies, and if so are you still able to find interesting stuff? I haven't attended ham shows in years, except for the MIT Flea 2 weekends ago, so I don't know what turns up these days. Back in the early 90's you could find all sorts of useless stuff LOL LOL. Like 19" open frame monochrome monitors and such. They always asked a lot for their *junk* though. Often I was put off. OT - Tony, what are you doing about finding yourself (or ME LOL) and early English T & LM lathe. If you don't know what I'm talking about, lathes.co.uk should have a profile on it. Lindsay Pubs. has a small booklet that describes the construction (contains a reprint from "American Machinist" from the early 20th century). Since you're in the country it was manufactured, don't take offence, but you'd be crazy to not at least keep yer eyes open for one. Or advertise around. Yer know ;) --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > problems caused by extra components [ask if you > want to know _that_ > > > story], and aligning those wonderful voice-coil > floppy drives... > > OK, I bought a QX10 at a radio rally (hamfest), and > the seller threw in > an extra CPU box which he said didn't work properly, > but it might be > useful for spares. > > Well, of course, ard being ard, I decided to find > out just what was wrong > with this spare machine. The PSU checked out fine, > so I fired it up. It > seemed to boot OK, but after a bit of screen > scrolling the display got > terribly corrupted. I forget the exact details, but > I think the text > appeared in the wrong part of the screen, stuff that > had scrolled off > came back in strange locations, and so on. > > It looked like a video RAM problem. Now the QX10 has > a daughterboard > containing all the video circuitry, it contains an > 7220, a gate array for > the actual dot shifting/combining (early versions > have TTL logic chips > for this...), a character generator ROM, a bit of > TTL and 16 DRAM chips. > According to the techref, the last can be either > 4116s (16K) or 4164s > (64K), there are links on the board to select which > type are in use. I > checked, everything was set correctly. The board had > 4164s on it, all the > links were in the '64K' postiion. > > So, being young and foolish, I replaced the complete > set of (socketed) > DRAMs, intending to put the originals back until I'd > found the one that > was playing up. No, that made no difference. Nor (as > I said I was young > and foolisH) did temporarilu replacing the 7220 and > gate array with the > ones from the good machine. And the ones from the > defective machine > worked fine in the 'good' machine. > > So I had to think about it. I decided to see what > the RAM size links did, > these are shown on the schematic. > > One of them connected pin one of all the DRAMs to > -5V, or left it floating. > > Another connected pin 8 of all the DRAMs to +12V or > +5V > > And another connected pin 9 of all the DRAMs to +5V > or an address output > from the logic. > > Suddenly, it hit me. Not shown on the schematic, but > present on the > board, were decoupling capacitors. And pin 9 of the > DRAM array had 8 or > so decoupling caps, 0.1uF each, between it and > ground. > > Fine if 4116s were fitted and that pin was a +5V > supply. Not so good if > it was a logic-level signal. That extra capacitance > added a ridiculous > delay to that address line. > > So I desoldered the capacitors. With all the > original chips in the board, > the machine sprang to life and worked fine. > > Presumably a previous owner had replaced 4116s with > 4164s, either to get > the higher video RAM capacity, or because one of the > former had failed > and he only had the latter. He'd correctly re-set > the links, but hadn't > realised about the decoupling capacitors. > > -tony > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 30 19:42:13 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:42:13 -0400 Subject: Who was putting together the TSX+ archive? In-Reply-To: <1191193101.26229.1.camel@elric> References: <46FFCF69.7070401@bitsavers.org> <1191193101.26229.1.camel@elric> Message-ID: <47004265.6080606@compsys.to> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 09:31 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > >>>Is this already in the archive, or would it be useful? >>> >>> >>Lyle Bickley was putting together the software archive >>unfortunately, he's no longer subscribed here. >> >>The TSX docs are under pdf/dec/pdp11/tsxPlus >>and I have some manuals scanned from Feb 84. >> >I put together a site for the TSX+ stuff and was waiting for the >go-ahead to put it live, but then Lyle went silent. > >Didn't know he'd unsubscribed though. > >I built the site a while ago, so I'd be inclined to just start again and >do it better this time... > > Jerome Fine replies: As far as I remember, Lyle received a system from S&H which he was able to somewhat (perhaps mostly) recover along with hard copy documentation. Does anyone have any contact with Lyle or did Lyle share any of this information on TSX-PLUS? Since I purchased a TSX-PLUS license over 10 years ago, I am legally able to run the software and have the latest distribution. It sounded like S&H gave Lyle permission to share distributions and documentation with hobby users wishing to run TSX-PLUS for non-commercial purposes. Can anyone confirm this? If so, then I would be able to share my distributions and documentation. I could also make up a hobby distribution from a distributor's release if that is preferred. An OBJ file is used to hold the copyright notice and user information which is then incorporated into one of the distribution OBJs. I remember having to do all of that when I upgraded a customer to V6.5 of TSX-PLUS after some locally required modifications were made to the resident monitor which had been part of the earlier version. I presume, Gordon, that you have the documentation for the V6.5 release? I have V6.5 as well as several sets from previous releases. The OBJ files can be UNMACed and converted to MAC files, but the DECUS release of UNMAC was not able to do the conversion without extensive enhancements. The primary problem was that the number of GLOBAL symbols far exceeded the capacity of the DECUS version of UNMAC. By the way, if anyone is running TSX-PLUS under Ersatz-11, the HD: disk drive provides an incredible alternative to VMX.SYS and frees up the use of the (emulated of course) PDP-11 memory. The version which I use under RT11XM will likely run as is under TSX-PLUS. Under RT11XM, the HDX.SYS is 3 times as fast as VMX.SYS, uses substantially less LOADed code and even the minimum version supports a full 65536 blocks. NOTE that under TSX-PLUS, the device driver name VM.TSX might not be allowed since I seem to remember that the VM: device was built into TSX-PLUS, but it has been a very long time and there may be a very separate VM.TSX file used - in which case: COPY HDX.SYS VM.SYS SET VM NAME,UNIT=e11 physical unit RENAME VM.SYS VM.TSX and you might be all set (until a bug is discovered) since there has been no testing under TSX-PLUS. I can probably be persuaded to test under TSX-PLUS if that become necessary. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 19:50:10 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:50:10 -0500 Subject: Easily Amused... In-Reply-To: <1191193296.26229.5.camel@elric> References: <1191193296.26229.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: <51ea77730709301750h79f98263raa3ab5179a87dfcc@mail.gmail.com> On 9/30/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Hm. Unfortunately citroen.cx is taken, although I could get citroen.id > or citroen.ax if I lived in Denmark. Think citroen.gs might be > available too... Or perhaps audi.tt? From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Sep 30 20:41:58 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:41:58 -0400 Subject: EPROM deaths... In-Reply-To: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46FFC935.70002@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709302141.58810.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 30 September 2007 12:05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Is there any kind of common failure mode for EPROMs? I've just had a couple > which are refusing to erase - I'm getting repeating patterns of bits which > refuse to clear (i.e. go high) under the eraser. > > Normally they seem to erase in ten minutes, twenty at the most - these pair > have had 30 so far. Just wondering whether to keep baking 'em or just toss > them because they're junk... Sounds to me like what you're seeing isn't so much a problem with the memory array in there as a problem with the output pin, likely shorted to ground... I've encountered a few like that. Most likely caused by inserting or removing them with power applied? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 30 20:48:55 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:48:55 -0700 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:50 PM -0700 9/30/07, Scott Quinn wrote: >"Card Catalog" - ILS (Integrated Library System) please! They do so >much more than simple cataloging now. I realized how much of a >computer snob I was this week- my school system is considering >replacing their current ILS (Dynix Scholar, circa 1988 interface) >with either Follett or DynixSirsi. I have a hard time taking Follett >seriously because it's Windows-NT only. Do any systems that run on VMS still exist? The only software I've looked at so far is Obiblio which I'd run on Linux. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 30 21:12:29 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:12:29 -0500 Subject: Lyle & TSX+ archive References: <46FFCF69.7070401@bitsavers.org> <1191193101.26229.1.camel@elric> Message-ID: <00ea01c803d0$8598e590$6600a8c0@JWEST> Al wrote... >> Lyle Bickley was putting together the software archive >> unfortunately, he's no longer subscribed here. Accidentally I might add. Lyle didn't unsubscribe from classiccmp. He unsubscribed from the cctalk view and was trying to get subscribed to the cctech view. This posting reminded me to go back and see what happened. He's very much still here :) > I built the site a while ago, so I'd be inclined to just start again and > do it better this time... As always, I'd be happy to host the site at no charge. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 30 21:51:30 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:51:30 -0500 Subject: kodak kims (VAX?) available Message-ID: <01ef01c803d5$f8b30ba0$6600a8c0@JWEST> I received this email today... if interested contact me off-list... ----- I Just today saved a Kodak KIMS workstation from being thrown in the garbage. It appers to be a VAX based system produced by digital for Kodak to be used as some sort of specalized information management and photo editing machine. I was only able to save the system itself. http://www.steubentech.com/~talon/KIMS/ From feedle at feedle.net Sun Sep 30 22:21:21 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:21:21 -0700 Subject: 80s video game markets... In-Reply-To: <470002D2.7080408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <470002D2.7080408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sep 30, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Random mutterings... > > I was just thinking earlier how huge the UK computer game market > was in the 80s - and yet most of the titles were produced by UK > people for the UK market, and presumably never exported elsewhere. > Other countries presumably followed the same pattern - and there > must be games which were huge in one country and relatively unheard > of anywhere else. Your assumption that the games did not make their way stateside is, in fact, incorrect. I worked for a guy in Orange, California who's entire business was importing Atari and Commodore (and, later, Atari ST and Amiga) games to the US, and reselling them to Atari and Commodore dealers around the country (as well as having his own brisk mail-order business). Patching the games to work on NTSC machines? Heh. Well, let's just say that the cracking groups came in REAL HANDY for figuring that out. Great Brit-ware games certainly made their way to the US, even though only a fraction were picked up by US publishers and officially distributed here. I still cherish my copy of Trip-A-Tron for the Atari ST. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 22:40:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:40:18 -0600 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/30/07, Scott Quinn wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have a DEC 4000 (Futurebus+, 1 CPU installed approx 384MB RAM... > > DEC 4000/AS8000 have interested me for a while- were there any other > commercially available general-purpose computers using the Futurebus+? > I know that most AS8ks probably don't have the Futurebus+ adaptor, but > it is available. Pity they are so big. For me, at least, since I have a Futurebus+ machine, were there any "useful" cards for that bus, or would I just be doing well to max out the memory and find a second CPU? It already has network and have plenty of SCSI busses, but if I'm going to be paying to power this thing up, it might as well be fully loaded. I've had it for years and never run across loose spare parts - so I'm thinking if I ever _do_ get to upgrade mine, it will be by harvesting parts from another DEC 4000. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 30 23:22:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 00:22:53 -0400 Subject: gEDA symbols In-Reply-To: <46FF50E3.9040504@mdrconsult.com> References: <46FF50E3.9040504@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1FBAC491-84BA-4DAB-AB21-92FC1B45972C@neurotica.com> On Sep 30, 2007, at 3:31 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm fiddling around with the gEDA suite, and I'm finding that > nearly none of the chips I want to use - MC6809[E], NEC 675, some > 74LSxxx chips - have symbols in the gschem libraries. I have the > 6809E and 765 parts done, but there are several smaller parts to go. > > After thinking about it, I seem to remember that this came up a > few months ago, and that somebody (Dave?) either had an extensive > private symbol library or knew of an online repository. > > Anyhow, I thought I'd ask before I invent anymore wheels. Anyone > have pointers to "obsolete" and arcane part descriptions for gschem? There's http://www.gedasymbols.org/ (a nasty hierarchical namespace violation if I've ever seen one, barf) and there's a lot of stuff there. I've done symbols for most of the Z80 family, the WD2797, and a bunch of current chips. I use djboxsym, which is a godsend. You're welcome to my .symdef files (the input files for djboxsym) or the resultant .sym files. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sun Sep 30 12:23:35 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:23:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "Chuck" question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 30, 2007 09:31:47 AM Message-ID: <200709301723.l8UHNZOf030359@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >The only system I've found less >possible to get up and running in any form are Atari Computers. > >Zane > What specifically have you had problems with and what type (Warner era 40/800 and xl's or Tramiel era ST's)? I've never had any problems, and I've gotten some pretty grimy "left in a box used as a trash dump for the last 25 years" Atari computers. I think the only things Atari wise I've had minor problems with have been ST era drives going bad. Marty E2M gamingmuseum.classicgaming.gamespy.com From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Sep 30 13:19:36 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:19:36 -0400 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? References: <001101c80230$34685e40$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> <200709300409.AAA04191@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000b01c8038e$75505f20$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> > Well, I wouldn't say I "collect" Alphas or VAXen Collect? That's what seems to have happen being a pack rat. It was not intentional, it's just I seem to be unable the sell or throw out any of my DEC stuff. When I needed more speed or memory I bought a faster unit and never thought about the old ones. > The 3000/M300X has been unstable too, but in rather intermittent ways, > and I've mostly given up on stabilizing it. I'm not even sure whether > the problems were hardware or software, though I suspect hardware The DEC 3000's I have are 150MHz and they can be unstable at times. I was told it was the SIMM sockets, I just periodically reseat the memory and go. > The PWS600au has been stable, and I have hopes that it will prove to be > the stable-&-usable Alpha I've wanted for quite a while. > I agree the PWS600 is stable and very usefull, good for surfing and code building. > The ?V2 I almost never turn on, because I have basically no disk for > it, and it's *very* slow to run it entirely diskless The MicroVAX 3800's are a lesson in patience when booting, though I still have use for them. I have added an HSD30 to one of them, allowing me to image the DSSI disks to SCSI ones. The SCSI drives are faster and the machine will boot noticably faster. > The NoName has cooling issues Heat issues are what the Alphaserver 1200 is about, for sure keep the case closed. It has dual 475W supplies and both are required for operation. It does serve very well as a space heater. I justify it for this purpose by looking at the watt rating of an average oil filled electric space heater, they are 1500W. Thanks for the reply... Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen? > > Enough for now, let me and/or the group what you have. Maybe we can > > form some sort of list for contact and advice or maybe part swapping. > > Well, I wouldn't say I "collect" Alphas or VAXen. But I have a handful > of them. I have a MicroVAX-II (in a BA123). I have a couple of more > recent VAXen which I put on the shelf when I got them and haven't yet > collected the round tuits to get out and do anything with; I don't even > remember their model numbers. I have a drawer full of MicroVAX-II > cards (CPUs, DEQNAs, disk interfaces, tape interfaces, etc) and a spare > BA123, and quite likely could assemble another machine if I wanted to. > As for alphas, I have a NoName (an AXPpci33, I think, is the proper > name for it). I have a PWS 600au. I have a "DEC 3000 - M300X, > 175MHz". > > The ?V2 I almost never turn on, because I have basically no disk for > it, and it's *very* slow to run it entirely diskless. One of my > projects is to try to put together a simple disk interface of some > sort (probably IDE), but that's very much a blue-sky project at the > moment. > > The NoName has cooling issues. I have it in a peecee case, and to keep > it from overheating I not only had to add a big fan blowing directly on > the CPU and 3.3V regulator heatsinks, but also run it with the case > open. It also won't reboot cleanly; if I tell it to reboot, it hangs, > and I have to hard-cycle power to make it come back. I suspect this > may be a legacy from having overheated to the point of crashing too > many times. > > The 3000/M300X has been unstable too, but in rather intermittent ways, > and I've mostly given up on stabilizing it. I'm not even sure whether > the problems were hardware or software, though I suspect hardware. > > The PWS600au has been stable, and I have hopes that it will prove to be > the stable-&-usable Alpha I've wanted for quite a while. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From bqt at softjar.se Sun Sep 30 16:05:46 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:05:46 +0200 Subject: MSCP controllers In-Reply-To: <200709302032.l8UKW5Gf047899@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709302032.l8UKW5Gf047899@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47000FAA.1060900@softjar.se> (Sortof starting a new thread) There have been a discussion about the ineffectiveness of MSCP recently, especially compared to a dumb controller interface. To make a few comments on this; yes the MSCP controller is much more intelligent. But noone have yet talked about what this means. The overhead for playing with the MSCP controller is way much more than for a simple, and stupid controller. However, there is also a big speed gain in some situations. Jerome Fines observations are correct. Under a single-user system such as RT-11 (especially of the software acts in a naive way) much of the advantages of MSCP is lost. The fact that it can deal with large disks (or disks with different sizes) can hardle be called "intelligent". That's really primitive. Things that the MSCP protocol do handle, however, and where the HD: driver will suffer and loose, is when we get into more advanced stuff. The MSCP controller can have many I/O requests outstanding at the same time. Once one operation is completed, it can immediately start the next one. You actually have a zero setup time with MSCP. So if you're doing several I/O operations in sequence, a good driver, in combination with a good program, will be able to get more performance out of the MSCP controller than the HD: driver, which each new operation can only be programmed once the previous operation is completed. The MSCP controller can also complete several I/O requests with just one interrupt. No need for one interrupt for each I/O operation that completes. The MSCP controller can also reorder I/O operations for better efficiency. If you have three requests, jumping back and forth over the disk, it makes sense to actually do the two operations on one end, before doing the operation at the other end. This can be implemented in software by the HD: controller, but then we now have more software that must run before each I/O request is issued. The MSCP controller handles bad block replacement without the involvement of the software. It always present a disk without bad blocks. In real life, all disks have bad blocks, so somewhere this always needs to be handled. Now, if you have a simulated PDP-11, the disk is actually a file on that OS, so the underlaying OS will handle bad blocks for you, so it isn't necceasry for the PDP-11 controller to do this anymore, but MSCP was designed for raw disks, not emulated systems. Dealing with bad blocks on the HD: driver would cost a lot. The MSCP controller can do I/O to several disks in parallel. In real life, controllers like the HD: driver pretends to talk to exists as well. One problem with these are that if you have several disks, you can only do I/O to one disk at a time. Some of these controllers could allow you to do seeks on other disks while I/O was performed on one disk. However, things started getting complicated with this. The MSCP controller have pretty advanced error detection and handling. Including extensive reports to the software on problems. Now, those things are why it's more intelligent. And more intelligent means it also takes more software to talk to it. :-) MSCP is really like serial SCSI (or serial ATA), only done 20 years earlier. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Sep 30 18:41:54 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:41:54 -0400 Subject: Anyone collect Dec/Compaq Alphaservers or VAXen References: <0113a0fb781ac637779b1087d970a40d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <002001c803bb$7b983740$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> Thanks for the responses, I am not alone. Forgot to include 5 Multias VX40's. Cranky little machines, not so fast, do not like to lie down cause they are little ovens not properly vented. My co-workers think I'm a bit strange, having Alpha equipment at home, but what do they know... The responses remind me DEC produced several generations of Alpha computers. as well as PDP's and VAXen. I still have customers that use them all. The PDP's are used in gauging applications in the steel industry, the VAXen are used for process monitoring and the Alpha's do modeling and data gathering / reporting. Do I have a preference? hardly, all are used frequently except the 3000X models. I currently am using a DS20, AS1200 and the XP1000's to maintain some process model code, funny the model is old and has made it through 12 years of VMS and Alpha generations. The MicroVax 3800's I have run VMS 5.5-2 and the application communicates with Allen Bradley PLC using a proprietary QBUS card. I am looking to buy another, a AS4100 and a DS20E, why? I dunno. Maybe I need a life, what I have works well, it's just I would not mind adding a few more before they are sent to the recycler as scrap by someone who does not appreciate fine computing. Dan