From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Nov 1 00:01:20 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:01:20 -0800 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47295DA0.8000107@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >I'm going to VCF/nanotech thing by plane and I thought this would be a >good way to bring Al some 8" floppies (PLATO system!) to >archive/image, but I wondered if the airport x-ray scanner would do >anything bad to them? I'd hate to damage them on my way to having >them archived... > > > I have heard that what is in use internationally will damage them. The power supply magnetics is what I was told is what is the real hazard not the xrays. I would not risk irreplacable media finding out anyway. I am looking for a way to ship 8" floppies internationally if anyone has done so successfully. quantity is large and all are one of a kind that cannot be duplicted at this time by any normal means. Jim From grant at stockly.com Thu Nov 1 01:56:59 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:56:59 -0800 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: <47295DA0.8000107@msm.umr.edu> References: <47295DA0.8000107@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <0JQT00AKDFAGWY10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >I have heard that what is in use internationally will damage >them. The power supply magnetics is what I was told is what is the >real hazard not the xrays. I would not risk irreplacable media >finding out anyway. > >I am looking for a way to ship 8" floppies internationally if anyone >has done so successfully. quantity is large and all are one of a >kind that cannot be duplicted at this time by any normal means. The average airport system is running at around 120kV .5mA. About 120-170w power supply... I would imagine that its a motor in the conveyor belt doing it. A lot of those tubes are built using a monoblock construction (the transformer is integrated) to save money. So the transformer is a few feet above the belt. Dental units are built this way... I don't know if the security systems use them, but there are conveyor rollers with motors built right in. A motor like that would be extremely close to the belt. Of course I have no idea what's going on outside of the U.S...but its probably the same. See if you can hand carry the disks through the metal detector. Or put them on top of your coat when you run it through. Grant From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 1 02:32:50 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 03:32:50 -0400 Subject: IMI drives (was WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only)) Message-ID: <01C81C38.0EB74FE0@MSE_D03> Re: Looking for IMI drives for a Cromemco: Another solution would be to find an STDC HD controller; then you could use most ST406/512 drives, and they'd also be quite a bit faster (and it would be a lot cheaper to ship ;-). I'm running two 150MB Maxtors and two 20MB IMIs on the same system BTW. I don't believe there are any CDOS drivers for it though, so you'd have to run any CDOS or CP/M programs in Cromix. As an aside, there's also an ESDI/SCSI controller; they're pretty scarce and your card set wouldn't support one AFAIK, but there is at least one person out there putting a 1.2GB disk into his Cromemco (you know who you are); not sure if it's working yet though, looks like the drive may be bad. mike -------------Original Messages: Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:41:24 -0000 From: "Jim Attfield" Subject: RE: WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:57:19 -0400 From: M H Stein Subject: WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only) ------------Reply: I have several IMI 20MB (and 5MB) drives, but they're also on the wrong side of the Atlantic (Toronto). Also, I'm not sure at this point how many are still working reliably or how many I can spare (if any). I have scrapped a few though, so if you happen to find an ST-412/506 version (they were used in some PCs) I could probably send you the PCBs to convert it. Why not just build a nice custom case & PS? mike ------------------------------ Hi Mike, glad to see they are still around to be had. Shipping a 20Mb IMI wouldn't be as bad as shipping a Z2D lol Nice tip on the PC drives although I believe I have only ever seen Seagate, Rodime, Micropolis, IBM etc. but I'll look more carefully from now on. Please keep me in mind, though, as soon as I have a chassis of some sort organised I'll want to run up the WDI-II (was a working pull from my old CS1-H, no longer with me, along with the DPU , 16-FDC and 256KZ) and get Cromix back on the go. Jim From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 1 04:07:39 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:07:39 +0100 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: <471E85C0.4050703@gmail.com> References: <471E65D6.2080906@gmail.com> <471E85C0.4050703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071101100739.337902c4@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:37:36 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > My compile on the VAXstation 2000 was at least a few days. Maybe a > week. See TOP 9: http://vaxarchive.pimpworks.org/swdist/bsd/bdc/vaxgeektop10.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 1 04:35:54 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:35:54 +0100 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: References: <08d2gn20ltu0yh4.231020071137@jvdg.com> Message-ID: <20071101103554.043020e2@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:02:02 +1300 "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > So for the more experienced SGI folks - do you feel that an Indy or > Indigo is responsive enough to be reasonable to use, or is it worth > holding out for something newer and most likely more expensive to > acquire? At least here in .de prices are down to around 300,- EUR for a 600 MHz Fuel or 100,- EUR for a single R12k CPU Octane with (E)SI GFX. If I where in the business for spendig money on a SGI workstation I would go for a Fuel. The Fuel allways comes with VPro and the VPro does textures in hardware. On the older (E)SI GFX you need special TRAM for textures and this TRAM is rare, thus expensive. An Octane can get expensive if you want to upgrade it to the level of a Fuel. I.e. 500..600 MHz and VPro GFX. Price will explode if you want dual 500..600 MHz CPU on the Octane. Dual 300 MHz R12k is affordable, but for desktop use a fast single CPU system is more effective then dual CPU of half the speed. (At least for me.) A R10k Indigo2 is still usefull. But the Indigo2 is a bit limited in IO and memory bandwith. An R10k Octane will outperform it. Conclusion: If you can spend money: Fuel. If you can't: mid-range Octane. Beware: I don't know about the Fuel, but the Octane as loud as a vacuum cleaner! -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 1 06:34:00 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0400 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711011134.lA1BY28i057128@billy.ezwind.net> Dont wory about them, I lived on the road for several years as a field enginieer (Have Scope will travel) and carried a case full of disks through airports every day. One week I saw 6 clients in 5 states. Never a problem with disks and airports. The other Bob On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:27:31 -0600, Richard wrote: >I'm going to VCF/nanotech thing by plane and I thought this would be a >good way to bring Al some 8" floppies (PLATO system!) to >archive/image, but I wondered if the airport x-ray scanner would do >anything bad to them? I'd hate to damage them on my way to having >them archived... >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! From dholland at woh.rr.com Thu Nov 1 07:21:06 2007 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 08:21:06 -0400 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: <20071101103554.043020e2@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <08d2gn20ltu0yh4.231020071137@jvdg.com> <20071101103554.043020e2@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <1193919666.14893.2.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Thu, 2007-11-01 at 10:35 +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:02:02 +1300 > in hardware. On the older (E)SI GFX you need special TRAM for textures > and this TRAM is rare, thus expensive. I think ESI likes to cook itself, and let the magic smoke escape. I've got ESI in my Octane, and it runs _HOT_, with what appears to be only passive cooling. David From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 1 09:01:10 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 09:01:10 -0500 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: <0JQT00AKDFAGWY10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <47295DA0.8000107@msm.umr.edu> <0JQT00AKDFAGWY10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4729DC26.5020005@mdrconsult.com> Grant Stockly wrote: > >> I have heard that what is in use internationally will damage them. >> The power supply magnetics is what I was told is what is the real >> hazard not the xrays. I would not risk irreplacable media finding out >> anyway. >> >> I am looking for a way to ship 8" floppies internationally if anyone >> has done so successfully. quantity is large and all are one of a kind >> that cannot be duplicted at this time by any normal means. > > The average airport system is running at around 120kV .5mA. About > 120-170w power supply... > > I would imagine that its a motor in the conveyor belt doing it. A lot > of those tubes are built using a monoblock construction (the transformer > is integrated) to save money. So the transformer is a few feet above > the belt. Dental units are built this way... > > I don't know if the security systems use them, but there are conveyor > rollers with motors built right in. A motor like that would be > extremely close to the belt. > > Of course I have no idea what's going on outside of the U.S...but its > probably the same. > > See if you can hand carry the disks through the metal detector. Or put > them on top of your coat when you run it through. US policy has a provision for carrying fast film through instead of running it through the xray. I fly pretty often, and sometimes with odd toys. I've had good luck calling the local TSA office and just telling them what I'm carrying and why I want special handling. (I suspect that if the item was a large block of Silly Putty with wires and batteries, they wouldn't be so understanding!) Caveat: Expect to get The Full Treatment anytime you bypass xray with any item. Ob WayOffTopic: Although this hass just nearly been 10 years - when I first started teaching for IBM only a few of the courses had gone to screen projector presentation. Most still used overhead projectors and transparencies. Even after screen projectors started catching on, I had to carry the transparencies "just in case". A week's worth of presentation is a stack between 75mm and 125mm. Even before 11/2001, airport security made me do the explosives swab test *every time* I went through, and searched my bags about 1 in 3 times. I finally asked one of the local security guys - who knew me by name by then - why I kept getting tagged. He grinned and thumped that stack of transparencies and said "I dunno what this stuff is made of, but under the scope it looks JUST LIKE plastic explosive. You're giving us all heart attacks." Doc From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 09:17:15 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:17:15 -0500 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: <4729DC26.5020005@mdrconsult.com> References: <47295DA0.8000107@msm.umr.edu> <0JQT00AKDFAGWY10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <4729DC26.5020005@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > Even before 11/2001, airport security made me do the explosives swab > test *every time* I went through, and searched my bags about 1 in 3 > times. I finally asked one of the local security guys - who knew me by > name by then - why I kept getting tagged. He grinned and thumped that > stack of transparencies and said "I dunno what this stuff is made of, > but under the scope it looks JUST LIKE plastic explosive. You're giving > us all heart attacks." You may also fit the profile. I ran into the same treatment ten years ago, with my black case with a Thinkpad in it (and not much else). The other engineers would go thru xray fine, but I was always, and I do mean ALWAYS, pulled over to get my bag swabbed. When I asked my it happens this way, the security guys always had some different excuse that said a whole bunch of nothing. And I do not even look anything like the Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight. -- Will From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 1 09:33:33 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 09:33:33 -0500 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <47295DA0.8000107@msm.umr.edu> <0JQT00AKDFAGWY10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <4729DC26.5020005@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4729E3BD.1090001@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Even before 11/2001, airport security made me do the explosives swab >> test *every time* I went through, and searched my bags about 1 in 3 >> times. I finally asked one of the local security guys - who knew me by >> name by then - why I kept getting tagged. He grinned and thumped that >> stack of transparencies and said "I dunno what this stuff is made of, >> but under the scope it looks JUST LIKE plastic explosive. You're giving >> us all heart attacks." > > You may also fit the profile. I ran into the same treatment ten years > ago, with my black case with a Thinkpad in it (and not much else). The > other engineers would go thru xray fine, but I was always, and I do > mean ALWAYS, pulled over to get my bag swabbed. When I asked my it > happens this way, the security guys always had some different excuse > that said a whole bunch of nothing. What, with my shaved head, earringed, early-forties, jeans-and-tshirted, Enron-badged backpacked self? After the guy told me that I started paying attention, and sure enough, when I didn't carry those transparencies, I didn't get hassled. "Besides, don't you know they don't do searches based on profiling?" Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 1 15:02:57 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy! Pocket! Mania! Message-ID: <200711012002.lA1K2vVh017226@floodgap.com> Just in time for my VCF exhibit this weekend, I've finished putting up some pictures and commentary on the Tandy Radio Shack Pocket Computer line. The site is split up into PC-1/3/8, PC-2 and PC-4/5/6/7 pages, with catalogue number listings, specifications and links. See them in person this weekend! http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tpm/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 1 17:43:36 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases that has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. This device is a regular RS232 serial terminal. Plug in a monitor, keyboard, and something talking rs232 and you're ready to go. Inside there would be a microprocessor, some ram, some flash, and an FPGA to take care of glue logic and talking to the VGA port. The FPGA would be loaded with the digital schematics of a particular terminal and its firmware, for instance, a Wyse 85 or 99GT (my favorites). That would get you most of the usual emulations. How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it cost? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 1 17:53:42 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 18:53:42 -0400 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This sounds similar to the WYSE WinTerm terminals. The box varies in size but it's about the size of a small hard cover book (your idea sounds smaller). Keyboard, monitor and mouse are separate. These are usually powered by powered by Windows CE. I've never used one, but they supposedly emulate a long list of terminals. Now, if you want to emulate the *actual* terminal (i.e., the exact on-screen font, etc.) and no fancy windows -- just raw text in various color combinations -- that's neat. On 11/1/07 6:43 PM, "David Griffith" wrote: > > I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases that > has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and > perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. This device is a regular RS232 > serial terminal. Plug in a monitor, keyboard, and something talking rs232 > and you're ready to go. Inside there would be a microprocessor, some ram, > some flash, and an FPGA to take care of glue logic and talking to the VGA > port. The FPGA would be loaded with the digital schematics of a > particular terminal and its firmware, for instance, a Wyse 85 or 99GT (my > favorites). That would get you most of the usual emulations. > > How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it > cost? Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 1 18:58:20 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 17:58:20 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071101175722.051752e0@mail.threedee.com> At 04:43 PM 11/1/2007, David Griffith wrote: >I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases that >has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and >perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. >How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it >cost? Apple makes one called the Mac Mini, about US $599. :-) - John From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 1 18:02:57 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > This sounds similar to the WYSE WinTerm terminals. The box varies in size > but it's about the size of a small hard cover book (your idea sounds > smaller). Keyboard, monitor and mouse are separate. These are usually > powered by powered by Windows CE. I've never used one, but they supposedly > emulate a long list of terminals. > > Now, if you want to emulate the *actual* terminal (i.e., the exact on-screen > font, etc.) and no fancy windows -- just raw text in various color > combinations -- that's neat. That's precisely what I'm after. The CPU would be the same as the one in the terminal. FPGA provides support logic. It would be more of a terminal re-implementation than an emulation. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 1 17:36:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 22:36:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: <20071031164000.S39822@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 31, 7 04:46:10 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Actually, "tamper-proof" isn't even "tamper-proof"--just "tamper- > > resistant". The closest things to "tamper proof" that I've ever seen > > have been in the nature of breakaway head nuts and bolts > > with some practice, they can usually be taken out by "tangential impact" > with a very small, very hard chisel. Best examples are automotive, so > for Jay, I'll leave it at that. A cetnre punch applied oliquely near the circumference often works too.. The wookshp manual [1] I have alongside me gives the removal method as drilling a hole down the middle and then using an easy-out. Does that term exist across the Pond? It's a tapered tool with a left-hand thread on the otuside. Put it down the hole, turn it anticlockwise with a tap wrench [2] and it bites into the sides of the hole and turns the shear-head olt anticlockwise too. I have neve seen RH thread easy-outs for removing ledt-handed shear-head bolts, which suggests that said bolts would be a little harder to remove [1] Yes it's a car manual. The bolts hold the ignition switch/steering lock to the column. I have neve seen such bolts used in classic computers [2] That's tap as in 'tool for cutting female screw theads' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 1 17:30:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 22:30:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: <20071031155738.Y39822@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 31, 7 04:04:39 pm Message-ID: > "Tamper-proof" is NOT "ARD-proof". Correct. There are _very_ few fasteners I couldn't remove if I had to. And the manufacturer not wanting me to get inside something is not sufficient reason for me not to go inside said unit > > Maybe it's just a "test". > "Only those who can get past it can be trusted inside"? :-). I ratehr like that. If you're sufficiently clueful to rcognise what tool is needed, and you are sufficiently clueful to obtain siad tool, then your reward is eing able to back about with the device. > My TRS80s had a bigger problem, trying to come up with the right color and > consistency of "Glyptol"? to keep them "on warranty" after adding > additional circuitry. I got quite good and peeling off those 'Removing this label voids the warranty' stickers over one of the case screws of later TRS-80 devices. I never bothereed to put them back, just stuck them on a sheet of silicone paper (backing from Letraset ru-down letters) in case I ever did want to return the unit. Never did of course, it was less hassle to fix it myself. -tony From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Nov 1 18:21:06 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 19:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071101232106.1D6605668A@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Tony Duell > > :-). I ratehr like that. If you're sufficiently clueful to rcognise what > tool is needed, and you are sufficiently clueful to obtain siad tool, > then your reward is eing able to back about with the device. > > > My TRS80s had a bigger problem, trying to come up with the right color and > > consistency of "Glyptol"? to keep them "on warranty" after adding > > additional circuitry. > > I got quite good and peeling off those 'Removing this label voids the > warranty' stickers over one of the case screws of later TRS-80 devices. I > never bothereed to put them back, just stuck them on a sheet of silicone > paper (backing from Letraset ru-down letters) in case I ever did want to > return the unit. Never did of course, it was less hassle to fix it myself. > wot?! You don't just punch through it with the screwdriver? ;) Cheers, Bryan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 1 18:23:48 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:23:48 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:43 PM -0700 11/1/07, David Griffith wrote: >I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases that >has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and >perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. This device is a regular RS232 >serial terminal. Plug in a monitor, keyboard, and something talking rs232 >and you're ready to go. Inside there would be a microprocessor, some ram, >some flash, and an FPGA to take care of glue logic and talking to the VGA >port. The FPGA would be loaded with the digital schematics of a >particular terminal and its firmware, for instance, a Wyse 85 or 99GT (my >favorites). That would get you most of the usual emulations. > >How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it >cost? Just buy an HP Think Client. Older models show up on eBay for ~$100. Out of curiousity, does anyone have experience with the HP Thin Clients? I've been thinking about getting either a VT525 or one of the HP Thin Clients. BTW, from where I'm sitting the most important thing is how such a device handles the keyboard, I need the keypad to act right when I'm in VMS. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Nov 1 18:50:35 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 23:50:35 -0000 Subject: Atari ST connectors References: Message-ID: <001801c81ce1$ff8e14e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > It's the same as early 800XLs only it appears to have >better feel.... I've always considered the original 800XL keyboard to be the best of all their 8-bit line, I personally found the springs in the 800's keyboard just a little too stiff to type on comfortably for extended periods. >....I got a 1200XL many moons ago for not much because it had >'dodgy video' but it certainly works over here so I'm not >complaining :) I must admit I've never gotten around to powering mine up, though without the case/keyboard there's not a lot I can do with it.... TTFN - Pete. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 18:55:31 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071101164625.X98931@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > drilling a hole down the middle a left handed drillbit is significantly better than a conventional one, since it will be tending towards loosening, not tightening. > and then using an easy-out. Does that term exist across the Pond? yes. But it is applied to only a few varieties Removing a broken easy-out is a lot more fun. There are special fluted tools for trying to remove broken taps, but not for easy-outs. Snap-on makes a good quality broken bolt extractor that is specifically designed so that WHEN it breaks, it leaves enough sticking out to grab with 5WR Vise-grips. > I have neve seen RH thread easy-outs for removing ledt-handed shear-head > bolts, which suggests that said bolts would be a little harder to remove I have used a type of easy-out with straight flutes (instead of left-hand thread), that can be used for left handed broken bolts. > I have neve seen such bolts used in classic computers I can't recall DELIBERATE shear-head bolts in computers, but I have removed broken bolts, and even a broken easy-out, from Hitype I printers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Nov 1 18:58:38 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 23:58:38 -0000 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) References: Message-ID: <001d01c81ce3$1f2ce910$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....When I got my paws on the 2nd machine with 'real' keyboard >I was surprised: > > If anyone could shed light as to which keyboard this is I'd be >grateful. That's appears to be the "other" replacement keyboard I recall seeing back in the day, though I don't remember who made it. It certainly looks like it's got the "full travel" keys. > Could be, as I have both the 2mb and 4mb machines. IIRC the TT030 >we have at Bletchley Park seems to have a mushier keyboard than the >MegaST so quality could well have become an issue. I'm tempted to see if I can get my Mega1 back from the friend I sold it to. He mentioned recently that he hadn't used it for years.... The more I think about it now, the more ISTR being surprised at how "cheap" the keyboard seemed when I unpacked it (unlike the rest of the machine). TTFN - Pete. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 19:00:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071101165630.J98931@shell.lmi.net> > > My TRS80s had a bigger problem, trying to come up with the right color and > > consistency of "Glyptol"? to keep them "on warranty" after adding > > additional circuitry. On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > I got quite good and peeling off those 'Removing this label voids the > warranty' stickers over one of the case screws of later TRS-80 devices. I > never bothereed to put them back, just stuck them on a sheet of silicone > paper (backing from Letraset ru-down letters) in case I ever did want to > return the unit. Never did of course, it was less hassle to fix it myself. I wanted to try the "buffered" expansion interface retrofit. So, I resealed the machines, (which had lower-case, a few additional keys, software controlled reverse video, and "RCA" jacks for composite almost-NTSC). Because it was "sealed", the RS tech was quite willing to do the warranty work, even with the "boat in a bottle" additional circuitry, on the condition that I supply him with full documentation of what mods I had done. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Nov 1 19:04:07 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 00:04:07 -0000 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) References: <008d01c81ab8$25b172b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <4726EADB.29682.1D9C7C81@cclist.sydex.com> <47278096.8090909@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <002401c81ce3$e375ef10$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Tramiel was using Vic-20 mentality towards a next generation >computer - the whole all in one cases which I never liked.... That design was fine for machines like the C-64 etc, but far too unwieldy once you reached the size of the ST. Probably my biggest gripe about the machine, even more so than the quality of the keyboard, was that it was almost impossible to position it so that the keyboard was at a comfortable angle. Especially when you'd got a few cables plugged in the back.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Nov 1 19:44:18 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 00:44:18 -0000 Subject: British Computers. References: Message-ID: <003901c81ce9$814acda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> Memotech >> >> Originally a maker of add-ons for the ZX-81, RAM packs etc. >>Great machines IMHO. > > I was given one recently. The mechancial design in beautiful.... One of the best designed home micros IMHO (mechanically). > Is the manaul for these machines on the web anywhere? Dunno about on the web, but I probably still have my copy lying around somewhere....I don't recall seeing any PAL equations in it though. TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 1 20:13:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 18:13:49 -0700 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: References: <20071031164000.S39822@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 31, 7 04:46:10 pm, Message-ID: <472A175D.14238.1BBD938@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2007 at 22:36, Tony Duell wrote: > The wookshp manual [1] I have alongside me gives the removal method as > drilling a hole down the middle and then using an easy-out. Does that > term exist across the Pond? It's a tapered tool with a left-hand thread > on the otuside. Put it down the hole, turn it anticlockwise with a tap > wrench [2] and it bites into the sides of the hole and turns the > shear-head olt anticlockwise too. Easy-outs, like tap extractors are perfect examples of oxymorons. I've never found an Easy-out that will remove a really stuck sheared- off bolt, nor have I found a tap extractor that will remove a broken tap. I've come to the conclusion that most people who have success with tap extractors buy really cheap taps that break if you look at them crosseyed. A good tap, when it breaks is impossible to remove with a tap extractor. A very slick way to remove a steel bolt or tap that's sheared off in an aluminum casting (e.g. a hard disk body) is to use nitric acid and a little heat--the acid doesn't bother the aluminum but eats enough of the steel to loosen it for removal. I've heard that alum (I don't know what sort, probably amonium) also works. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 1 20:44:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 18:44:00 -0700 Subject: Anyone around early for VCF? Message-ID: <200711020144.lA21iBZn057602@billy.ezwind.net> Hi all ... I arrived here in Mountain View today, up for hanging out tonight who whoever's around and I haven't previously flamed. :) - Evan K. (6465469999) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 1 21:12:00 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 19:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dsdd floppies In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20071028094150.0a609090@mail.marcal.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20071028094150.0a609090@mail.marcal.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Dan Veeneman wrote: > David, > > I picked up about three dozen sealed boxes this weekend, > Verbatim Datalife 5.25" DSDD. > > How many do you need? Thanks, but I've already ordered some from the guy in Canada. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 1 21:38:56 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 19:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies Message-ID: Please bear with me one more time... What was that URL to the stuff about the mythic 3.25" floppy disk? (the one that looked like a shrunken 5.25" and loaded onto a tray). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 21:54:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 19:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071101194348.U98931@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, David Griffith wrote: > Please bear with me one more time... What was that URL to the stuff about > the mythic 3.25" floppy disk? (the one that looked like a shrunken 5.25" > and loaded onto a tray). don't know a URL, but Dysan bet the company and lost. During the big "debate" about which size (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") would be "shirt pocket" disk to replace "bar napkin" disk, many "experts" said that it would go to whichever had software. So, Dysan set up an enormous software distribution system. The "experts" were, of course clueless, and objective "bests" were irrelevant; it went to what the biggest companies went with. Seequa Chameleon 325 is the only machine that I've heard of actually going with it. I got disks, drives, alignment disks, etc. from Micropro. BTW, George Morrow said that the answer was to cut a deal with the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets to 5.25" or 8". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 1 21:56:12 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 19:56:12 -0700 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The X-ray won't cause damage but most use a NMRI system to look for nitrates. This can have a strong magnetic field. I don't think it would be strong enough to erase floppies but wouldn't stake my life on it. It takes a really strong field to erase magnetic media. The floppy drive has the head right on the floppy surface. It doesn't need to be as strong as one a foot away. Dwight > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> From: legalize at xmission.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:27:31 -0600> Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies?> > I'm going to VCF/nanotech thing by plane and I thought this would be a> good way to bring Al some 8" floppies (PLATO system!) to> archive/image, but I wondered if the airport x-ray scanner would do> anything bad to them? I'd hate to damage them on my way to having> them archived...> > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download> > > Legalize Adulthood! _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 1 22:19:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 20:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20071101194348.U98931@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071101194348.U98931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, David Griffith wrote: > > Please bear with me one more time... What was that URL to the stuff about > > the mythic 3.25" floppy disk? (the one that looked like a shrunken 5.25" > > and loaded onto a tray). > > don't know a URL, but Dysan bet the company and lost. I'm not sure how I decided I found an URL here, but here it is in case someone's curious. http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html#325 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 22:34:16 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 22:34:16 -0500 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20071101194348.U98931@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071101194348.U98931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730711012034i7a0c454dyf6f6ac0aadac0840@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 1, 2007 9:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > don't know a URL, but Dysan bet the company and lost. > During the big "debate" about which size (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") would be Not sure if any computer ever used them, but I remember having an old Akai sampler that used a bizarre "Quickdisk" format. The sampler is long gone, but somewhere I have one or two of the disks, which will be handy should I ever try to create a magnetic media display of some sort. I think they measured...2.75" (?) and held...not much at all. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 23:01:15 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <20071101194348.U98931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20071101205945.O98931@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, David Griffith wrote: > I'm not sure how I decided I found an URL here, but here it is in case > someone's curious. > http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html#325 one of many whose content on this and related subjects consists entirely of material from THIS list. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 23:02:19 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711012034i7a0c454dyf6f6ac0aadac0840@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071101194348.U98931@shell.lmi.net> <51ea77730711012034i7a0c454dyf6f6ac0aadac0840@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071101210127.M98931@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Jason T wrote: > Not sure if any computer ever used them, but I remember having an old > Akai sampler that used a bizarre "Quickdisk" format. The sampler is > long gone, but somewhere I have one or two of the disks, which will be > handy should I ever try to create a magnetic media display of some > sort. I think they measured...2.75" (?) and held...not much at all. was that a 2.8" diskette with a single continuous spiral track? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 1 23:49:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:49:57 -0700 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711012034i7a0c454dyf6f6ac0aadac0840@mail.gmail.com> References: , <20071101194348.U98931@shell.lmi.net>, <51ea77730711012034i7a0c454dyf6f6ac0aadac0840@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472A4A05.4164.281B62C@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2007 at 22:34, Jason T wrote: > Not sure if any computer ever used them, but I remember having an old > Akai sampler that used a bizarre "Quickdisk" format. The sampler is > long gone, but somewhere I have one or two of the disks, which will be > handy should I ever try to create a magnetic media display of some > sort. I think they measured...2.75" (?) and held...not much at all. I've got the 3.25" floppies and drives if anyone cares. The drives are unlabeled, but I'll swear that I saw some once upon a time that were labeled "Shugart Venture". There were one or two early CP/M boxes that used them. I also have the 2.8" Quikdisks and can handle those too. The Akai used them as did some Smith Corona word processors. I don't recall the exact capacity (I'd have to look at my notes) but it wasn't much more than about 60K--and yes, it was a continuous spiral. You turn the drive motor on, wait for it to get to speed, pulse a line that pulls in a clutch and you get ready to read or write the entire disk. The head makes a continuous spiral and then returns to the start of the disk and the clutch disengages. The spiral is divided into sectors. I've also got a working Smith Corona PWP-7000 that uses these. Curiously, it has a terminal program and speaks XMODEM at 1200 bps. IIRC, the CPU is something like an 8051--it's definitely not an x80 family chip. Cheers, Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Thu Nov 1 23:58:18 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:58:18 -0700 Subject: Signetics N82S115 ROMs In-Reply-To: <200710311043.l9VAhAwh081708@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200710311043.l9VAhAwh081708@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with these programmable bipolar ROMs failing after a long period of time? I have an old piece of test equipment that has 8X300 running the display reading its program from the aforementioned ROMs and the text info is missing pixels - apparently in the same place in the same letters. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Nov 2 00:32:37 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:32:37 -0500 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security Message-ID: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> This isn't even close to on-topic, but maybe it's of general interest. Paypal is offering a SecureID fob, the "Paypal Security Key", for authentication to your Paypal account. I haven't seen it mentioned on the Paypal descriptions, but the coworker who showed me his tells me that it works with eBay too. Worth mention, I suppose, is that it's *in addition to* your email/password login info, not instead of. Also, it's $5 USD shipped. :) Doc From marvin at west.net Fri Nov 2 01:38:20 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:38:20 -0700 Subject: VCF Stuff for Sale Message-ID: <472AC5DC.529483B6@west.net> I'll be heading up to VCF tomorrow and will be bringing quite a bit of stuff. A partial list can be found at: http://www.west.net/~marvin/2007vcf.txt Also, for those of you who either live in the area or will be attending VCF, the Livermore swapmeet is Sunday starting at about 6:30AM or so. My intention right now is to go there with a selling spot ... it makes a great place to meet people AND store stuff bought there :) ... and head back to VCF about 10:30AM or so. Livermore is approximately 30 minutes or so from the CHM. If anyone is interested and needs a ride, see me at VCF. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 2 02:30:17 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 02:30:17 -0500 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security In-Reply-To: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> References: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <472AD209.4070900@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > Paypal is offering a SecureID fob, the "Paypal Security Key", for > authentication to your Paypal account. I haven't seen it mentioned on > the Paypal descriptions, but the coworker who showed me his tells me > that it works with eBay too. Worth mention, I suppose, is that it's *in > addition to* your email/password login info, not instead of. > > Also, it's $5 USD shipped. :) Yep, it's a rebadged RSA SecureID token. While it won't prevent cross-site scripting holes (the most common way a fraudster gets into your ebay account to post in your name), it will most likely make it impossible to take fraud to the final stop (ie. actually posting and/or actually screwing around with your money). I highly recommend it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 03:41:15 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 01:41:15 -0700 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security In-Reply-To: <472AD209.4070900@oldskool.org> References: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> <472AD209.4070900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6d6501090711020141h35ce0162h1a2900615be8c2b8@mail.gmail.com> Of corse people in Canada can't buy it :( Chris On 11/2/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Doc Shipley wrote: > > Paypal is offering a SecureID fob, the "Paypal Security Key", for > > authentication to your Paypal account. I haven't seen it mentioned on > > the Paypal descriptions, but the coworker who showed me his tells me > > that it works with eBay too. Worth mention, I suppose, is that it's *in > > addition to* your email/password login info, not instead of. > > > > Also, it's $5 USD shipped. :) > > Yep, it's a rebadged RSA SecureID token. While it won't prevent > cross-site scripting holes (the most common way a fraudster gets into > your ebay account to post in your name), it will most likely make it > impossible to take fraud to the final stop (ie. actually posting and/or > actually screwing around with your money). I highly recommend it. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 2 03:48:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 01:48:43 -0700 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security In-Reply-To: <472AD209.4070900@oldskool.org> References: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com>, <472AD209.4070900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <472A81FB.27342.35C4F39@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2007 at 2:30, Jim Leonard wrote: > Yep, it's a rebadged RSA SecureID token. While it won't prevent > cross-site scripting holes (the most common way a fraudster gets into > your ebay account to post in your name), it will most likely make it > impossible to take fraud to the final stop (ie. actually posting and/or > actually screwing around with your money). I highly recommend it. I don't know--it looks like another d*mned thing to lose, step on or have the dog eat. The difference between it and an old sock is that when the dog eats your old sock, you can still use PayPal. Cheers, Chuck From jvdg at sparcpark.net Fri Nov 2 04:01:02 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:01:02 +0100 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies Message-ID: Jason T wrote: > Not sure if any computer ever used them, but I remember having an old > Akai sampler that used a bizarre "Quickdisk" format. The sampler is > long gone, but somewhere I have one or two of the disks, which will be > handy should I ever try to create a magnetic media display of some > sort. I think they measured...2.75" (?) and held...not much at all. They were used on some MSX home computers, although I have only ever read about them (and seen pictures). I don't think they were commonplace outside of Japan and Korea. They were sort of a cross between tape and disk media; data was written sequentially in a spiral pattern on the disk. ,xtG tsooJ From james at attfield.co.uk Fri Nov 2 04:11:22 2007 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:11:22 -0000 Subject: IMI drives (was WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only)) In-Reply-To: <01C81C38.0EB74FE0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: > From: M H Stein [mailto:dm561 at torfree.net] > Sent: 01 November 2007 07:33 > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Cc: 'james at attfield.co.uk' > Subject: IMI drives (was WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only)) > > > Re: Looking for IMI drives for a Cromemco: > > Another solution would be to find an STDC HD controller; then you could > use most ST406/512 drives, and they'd also be quite a bit faster (and it > would be a lot cheaper to ship ;-). I'm running two 150MB Maxtors and > two 20MB IMIs on the same system BTW. > > I don't believe there are any CDOS drivers for it though, so you'd have > to run any CDOS or CP/M programs in Cromix. > > As an aside, there's also an ESDI/SCSI controller; they're pretty scarce > and your card set wouldn't support one AFAIK, but there is at least one > person out there putting a 1.2GB disk into his Cromemco (you know who > you are); not sure if it's working yet though, looks like the > drive may be bad. An STDC would be nice and I agree, in sole ways perhaps more desirable than the WDI-II but I haven't seen one come available for a looooong time (YMMV). I also prefer not to lose CDOS or the possibility of CP/M (although I always preferred MP/M-II even for single user use). Jim From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 2 04:35:51 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:35:51 +0000 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20071101210127.M98931@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730711012034i7a0c454dyf6f6ac0aadac0840@mail.gmail.com> <20071101210127.M98931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711020935.51806.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 02 November 2007 04:02:19 Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Jason T wrote: > > Not sure if any computer ever used them, but I remember having an old > > Akai sampler that used a bizarre "Quickdisk" format. The sampler is > > long gone, but somewhere I have one or two of the disks, which will be > > handy should I ever try to create a magnetic media display of some > > sort. I think they measured...2.75" (?) and held...not much at all. > > was that a 2.8" diskette with a single continuous spiral track? That's it exactly. It was the Akai S612 - or more specifically, the Akai MD280 external disk drive. IIRC the sampler could be bought without the drive, and either send and receive samples over sysex or from tape. I *think* it had 48k of memory. I passed up the chance to buy one, with the drive and a large library of disks, for 50 quid in a music shop in Inverness a few years ago. Oh well. Gordon From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 05:34:23 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 05:34:23 -0500 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <200711020935.51806.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <51ea77730711012034i7a0c454dyf6f6ac0aadac0840@mail.gmail.com> <20071101210127.M98931@shell.lmi.net> <200711020935.51806.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730711020334t66ab0ca7rdcd8b96d9bc01e4c@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 2, 2007 4:35 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > That's it exactly. It was the Akai S612 - or more specifically, the Akai > MD280 external disk drive. IIRC the sampler could be bought without the Yes! That was it. It was old even when I had it (1996 or so.) I traded it up for a Roland S-330, which used 720k 3.5" floppies (format unknown.) Wish I still had them both! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Nov 2 09:53:27 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:53:27 -0300 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies References: Message-ID: <0cf001c81d60$532e7a80$f0fea8c0@alpha> > They were used on some MSX home computers, although I have only ever read > about them (and seen pictures). I don't think they were commonplace > outside of Japan and Korea. They were sort of a cross between tape and > disk media; data was written sequentially in a spiral pattern on the disk. MSX with 3.25 disks? Is that the QD drive? From jvdg at sparcpark.net Fri Nov 2 09:42:58 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:42:58 +0100 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies Message-ID: Alexandre Souza wrote: >> They were used on some MSX home computers, although I have only ever read >> about them (and seen pictures). I don't think they were commonplace >> outside of Japan and Korea. They were sort of a cross between tape and >> disk media; data was written sequentially in a spiral pattern on the disk. > > MSX with 3.25 disks? Is that the QD drive? No. QD disks are 2.8". Several drives are mentioned here: ,xtG tsooJ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Nov 2 10:37:11 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:37:11 -0700 Subject: From the Sun haul - SIMMs Message-ID: <6983d281f0c16f4848959b6de10ea431@valleyimplants.com> I got a file box full of 30-pin 9-bit 4 megabyte SIMMs if anyone has need of them. Most are 80nS, going down to 60nS, and even a few 3-chip "why bothers" (curiously with Sun numbering). Many 9-chip Sun 501-1739 parts if you want original Unsorted or semi-sorted chips (same-manufacturer, I went through many bags to come up with enough Toshibas to max out my Personal IRIS 4D/25) are free for shipping. If you want a matched set or guaranteed 70nS (or 60nS) kick in a little more to make it worth my while to sort through the bin. Probably not a high-interest item, but thought I'd pass them on if needed. In Renton, WA. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Nov 2 11:05:49 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 12:05:49 -0400 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <0cf001c81d60$532e7a80$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <0cf001c81d60$532e7a80$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <472B4ADD.1030508@atarimuseum.com> I see Herb has a great amount of content resources... Does anyone here on the list collect disk drives specifically? Especially all of the very early 3.5" drives? I've wanted to find several of the first Seagate/Shugart 3.5" drives as well as the early Epson versions. Curt Alexandre Souza wrote: >> They were used on some MSX home computers, although I have only ever >> read about them (and seen pictures). I don't think they were >> commonplace outside of Japan and Korea. They were sort of a cross >> between tape and disk media; data was written sequentially in a >> spiral pattern on the disk. > > MSX with 3.25 disks? Is that the QD drive? > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Nov 2 11:18:53 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 12:18:53 -0400 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security In-Reply-To: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> References: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <472B4DED.7040300@atarimuseum.com> With all of the rampant phishing and other crap going on around the net from people trying to steal ebay and paypal accounts, I think this is well past due, especially for paypal since it deals with money. Having a keyfob as a 3rd line entry to access your account (I have this with my Citibusiness account - ID, password, keyfob entry) so this would virtually eliminate all of the stolen account attempts, phoney login screens and fake phishing sites at long last. The real key to implementing this is that the keyfob code has to be manually entered by requiring mouse over clicks across a number bar on the screen, not typing it into a text box, otherwise a fake site could grab the login info, relay it into paypal via a script and then process and run an automated script once logged in to transfer/remove funds. Having the mouse over and click to a graphic bar (which could be shown in multiple ways and arrangements which could vary with each session) the keyfob code could not be simply cut & pasted from a fake to real site. Having the keyfob code rotating every 30 seconds really cuts down on the damage someone can do, they'll literally have to be sitting at the keyboard 24/7 hoping to grab a keyfob code and use it fast enough to log in. Its not perfect, nothing ever is, but its a HUGE leap in the right direction of responsibility on Paypals part... Now if they would just do a charge verification and processing check BEFORE allowing payments to go through instead of subjecting people to a 6 month window of "Oppps, that $500 you got 2 months ago, well the charge card was a fraud, so we'll just take that money back and you now owe us $500, please pay now before we sic our collections agents on you, have a nice day...." Google Checkout does a full security and verification check BEFORE the charge is completed for each transaction, this is why I now use them over paypal. Ebay is being hit with a major anti-trust suit because its blocking Google and other payment services in lieu of forcing people to choose paypal for payment (since ebay owns paypal) so that is looking like ebay has no leg to stand on and once the door opens for google, paypal is going to have to be far more competitive and really going to be forced to clean up its act. We you read the horror stories over at paypalsucks.com and see the stealing of funds from people's bank accounts, the instantly frozen accounts with $1,000's of dollars in them that have to wait 6 months while paypal performs its own internal investigation, leaving people without their money, its just disgusting to see how paypal - which was in its infancy - supposed to be this great new era of electronic funding perverted into a Racketeering and Extortion Enterprise. Curt Doc Shipley wrote: > This isn't even close to on-topic, but maybe it's of general interest. > > Paypal is offering a SecureID fob, the "Paypal Security Key", for > authentication to your Paypal account. I haven't seen it mentioned on > the Paypal descriptions, but the coworker who showed me his tells me > that it works with eBay too. Worth mention, I suppose, is that it's > *in addition to* your email/password login info, not instead of. > > Also, it's $5 USD shipped. :) > > > Doc > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 2 11:42:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:42:45 -0700 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <472B4ADD.1030508@atarimuseum.com> References: , <0cf001c81d60$532e7a80$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <472B4ADD.1030508@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <472AF115.15463.50E4C6D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2007 at 12:05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Does anyone here on the list collect disk drives specifically? > Especially all of the very early 3.5" drives? I've wanted to find > several of the first Seagate/Shugart 3.5" drives as well as the early > Epson versions. Only as far as type and utility goes. A modern 3.5" drive is just as useful as an old Sony 0AD SS 3.5" drive, even if it only spins at 300 RPM. So I dumped my old Sony drives. But, for example, I have both the 2.88 and 6.4MB 5.25" Drivetec drives, even if there's nowhere to get formatted media for them, because they're the only thing that will read those diskettes. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 2 11:43:55 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:43:55 -0400 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <01C81D50.A538A040@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith Subject: modern serial terminal I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases that has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. This device is a regular RS232 serial terminal. Plug in a monitor, keyboard, and something talking rs232 and you're ready to go. Inside there would be a microprocessor, some ram, some flash, and an FPGA to take care of glue logic and talking to the VGA port. The FPGA would be loaded with the digital schematics of a particular terminal and its firmware, for instance, a Wyse 85 or 99GT (my favorites). That would get you most of the usual emulations. How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it cost? --------------------------- Take an old Laptop, remove the screen and you're in business. Probably wouldn't cost anything, especially if the screen's broken; boot & run from floppy or USB if the HD's bad. You've even got a built-in keyboard for those times you can't find the main one. (and, if it's still got a parallel port, a parallel ASCII keyboard if you need one), And you could probably listen to your favourite CD while you're working... A little bigger than two jewel cases but a cinch to upgrade... Not to mention one less land-fill item... m From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 2 12:01:49 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:01:49 -0400 Subject: IMI drives (was WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only)) Message-ID: <01C81D50.A6653960@MSE_D03> ---------Original Message(s): ---------- From: Jim Attfield[SMTP:james at attfield.co.uk] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 5:11 AM To: M H Stein; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: IMI drives (was WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only)) > From: M H Stein [mailto:dm561 at torfree.net] > Sent: 01 November 2007 07:33 > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Cc: 'james at attfield.co.uk' > Subject: IMI drives (was WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only)) > > > Re: Looking for IMI drives for a Cromemco: > > Another solution would be to find an STDC HD controller; then you could > use most ST406/512 drives, and they'd also be quite a bit faster (and it > would be a lot cheaper to ship ;-). I'm running two 150MB Maxtors and > two 20MB IMIs on the same system BTW. > > I don't believe there are any CDOS drivers for it though, so you'd have > to run any CDOS or CP/M programs in Cromix. > > As an aside, there's also an ESDI/SCSI controller; they're pretty scarce > and your card set wouldn't support one AFAIK, but there is at least one > person out there putting a 1.2GB disk into his Cromemco (you know who > you are); not sure if it's working yet though, looks like the > drive may be bad. An STDC would be nice and I agree, in some ways perhaps more desirable than the WDI-II but I haven't seen one come available for a looooong time (YMMV). I also prefer not to lose CDOS or the possibility of CP/M (although I always preferred MP/M-II even for single user use). Jim --------------Reply: Well, yes, My M does V... ;-) But you wouldn't "lose" CDOS or CP/M, just direct HD access from CDOS; I haven't seen any CP/M drivers for a WDI-II and IMI HD - have you? If Cromix couldn't run your software for some reason or you want the CP/M "look and feel" you could always still run off a couple of 1MB floppies and then use Cromix to archive your files on the HD. Anyway, just thought I'd mention it in case you happen to run across an STDC before you find an IMI HD. mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 2 12:27:04 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Was: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <0cf001c81d60$532e7a80$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <0cf001c81d60$532e7a80$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20071102102527.L43890@shell.lmi.net> > > They were used on some MSX home computers, although I have only ever read > > about them (and seen pictures). I don't think they were commonplace > > outside of Japan and Korea. They were sort of a cross between tape and > > disk media; data was written sequentially in a spiral pattern on the disk. On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Alexandre Souza wrote: > MSX with 3.25 disks? Is that the QD drive? Not 3.25" 2.8" with a spiral track. "Quickdisk"? From dmc_67301 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 13:38:42 2007 From: dmc_67301 at yahoo.com (Debbie Cornett) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Topic -- Xerox Memorywriter Keyboard Membranes Message-ID: <677856.98371.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have an old Xerox Memorywriter 630 typewriter. It works great except for the fact that it needs a new set of membranes in the keyboard. I can get a set of the membranes but I have no idea how to install them. Any help out there? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Nov 2 14:20:05 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 19:20:05 +0000 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <003901c81ce9$814acda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 2/11/07 01:44, "Ensor" wrote: > Hi, > >>> Memotech >>> >>> Originally a maker of add-ons for the ZX-81, RAM packs etc. >>> Great machines IMHO. >> >> I was given one recently. The mechancial design in beautiful.... > > One of the best designed home micros IMHO (mechanically). And MHO too: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Memotech Brushed aluminium goodness AND a nice keyboard. Pity 90% of the machines out there have suffered the same black-screen death. One of these days I'll get a probe on one to see what's not working..... >> Is the manaul for these machines on the web anywhere? > > Dunno about on the web, but I probably still have my copy lying around > somewhere....I don't recall seeing any PAL equations in it though. Mine are in easy reach but I didn't get the original message that this is a reply to, anything I can dig out? Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri Nov 2 14:43:35 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:43:35 +0000 Subject: 2.8" Floppies [Was: 3.25-inch floppies] Message-ID: <3bacbc0711021243q3cd7c240i441f12664bd1ec22@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07 09:35, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > That's it exactly. It was the Akai S612 - or more specifically, the Akai > MD280 external disk drive. IIRC the sampler could be bought without the > drive, and either send and receive samples over sysex or from tape. I > *think* it had 48k of memory. > > I passed up the chance to buy one, with the drive and a large library of > disks, for 50 quid in a music shop in Inverness a few years ago. Oh well. > > Gordon Great little piece of kit. The samples were 12-bit (from memory) and there was *the best* interface for trimming samples I've ever encountered - basically two sliders representing 0 - 100% of the sample length. The top represented "start" and the bottom "end". If the "start" slider was further along than the "end" slider it would play the sample in reverse, still obeying the trim length - genius! MIDI compatible too.... I'm ashamed to say I threw mine out a few years ago after the disk unit got crushed (still functional, mind you). The right hand side of the disk unit was just red metal diagonal slots for storing the diskettes - pure 80's chic! -Austin. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 2 15:48:19 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:48:19 -0500 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security In-Reply-To: <472B4DED.7040300@atarimuseum.com> References: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> <472B4DED.7040300@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <472B8D13.7030505@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > The real key to > implementing this is that the keyfob code has to be manually entered by > requiring mouse over clicks across a number bar on the screen, not > typing it into a text box, otherwise a fake site could grab the login > info, relay it into paypal via a script and then process and run an > automated script once logged in to transfer/remove funds. (Disclaimer: I used to work in the security industry) (Disclaimer2: I am not ranting against Curt, just trying to dispel some myths and paranoia before they start) If someone is willing to target you so specifically, I don't think a "manual" method of entry is going to make a difference. Setting up that level of phishing is so much work that, I am not making this up, it is easier to just visit your house with a gun and extort the cash from you. Seriously. There were stories in my industry of someone coming up with a new protection method for an ATM or something (like a way to prevent people from spying on the keypad, or requiring double-entry where the second entry had reversed number positions on the screen) and, I kid you not, it wasn't worth the mafia's effort to try to crack it -- instead, they showed up at the engineer's office with a picture of his family and asked him, "nicely", to reveal how it worked. You'd have to be some millionaire classic computer collector to attract that kind of attention. A keyfob is so much trouble to scammers and phishers that they don't even bother, they just move to the millions of others who don't use one. And the "but people steal cars locked with The Club too!" argument doesn't work here -- The Club is a placebo. Any hacksaw can get through it in 45 seconds. The keyfob has a six-digit number seeded specifically for you and changes once a minute and the period is something crazy, like 2^19337 before it repeats. Our bones will turn to dust long before the number is guessable :-) Bottom line: Don't fear the keyfob. It's a no-brainer for $6. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From kth at srv.net Fri Nov 2 15:55:49 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:55:49 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> David Griffith wrote: > I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases that > has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and > perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. This device is a regular RS232 > serial terminal. Plug in a monitor, keyboard, and something talking rs232 > and you're ready to go. Inside there would be a microprocessor, some ram, > some flash, and an FPGA to take care of glue logic and talking to the VGA > port. The FPGA would be loaded with the digital schematics of a > particular terminal and its firmware, for instance, a Wyse 85 or 99GT (my > favorites). That would get you most of the usual emulations. > > How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it > cost? > > According to slashdot, Walmart is selling an Ubunto based Linux PC for around $200, without monitor. This is apparently a mini-atx board stuffed into a full sized box with a 80 Gb hard drive, most of the interfaces you wanted, and probably a warranty. This gives you a price $200 + Display for something that can run numerous terminal emulators, even allowing ssh or telnet. So, $200 is the price to try to beat. You can probably buy a low end mini-atx based box for a similar price if size really matters, or design your own box to stuff it into. This gives you a very flexible terminal emulator that you can load any number of emulations into, write your own emulators, and be able to run local programs (calculator, etc) on. If you don't like Linux, you can always load FreeDos or something else onto it. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Nov 2 16:10:30 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:10:30 -0400 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security In-Reply-To: <472B8D13.7030505@oldskool.org> References: <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> <472B4DED.7040300@atarimuseum.com> <472B8D13.7030505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <472B9246.8080208@atarimuseum.com> Hi Jim, I used to do residential and vehicle security installations for a few years around 20 years back... as for the Club... they are pretty much unbreakable, except for the cheapo knock-offs... the car thieves cut through the steering wheel, no the Club and then slid the club off of the steering wheels to either steal the car or just steal the airbags which were usually worth more then the car itself many times... New thing these days, thieves are stealing the krypton headlights out of cars as they are worth a pretty penny... Curt Jim Leonard wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> The real key to implementing this is that the keyfob code has to be >> manually entered by requiring mouse over clicks across a number bar >> on the screen, not typing it into a text box, otherwise a fake site >> could grab the login info, relay it into paypal via a script and then >> process and run an automated script once logged in to transfer/remove >> funds. > > (Disclaimer: I used to work in the security industry) > > (Disclaimer2: I am not ranting against Curt, just trying to dispel > some myths and paranoia before they start) > > If someone is willing to target you so specifically, I don't think a > "manual" method of entry is going to make a difference. Setting up > that level of phishing is so much work that, I am not making this up, > it is easier to just visit your house with a gun and extort the cash > from you. Seriously. There were stories in my industry of someone > coming up with a new protection method for an ATM or something (like a > way to prevent people from spying on the keypad, or requiring > double-entry where the second entry had reversed number positions on > the screen) and, I kid you not, it wasn't worth the mafia's effort to > try to crack it -- instead, they showed up at the engineer's office > with a picture of his family and asked him, "nicely", to reveal how it > worked. > > You'd have to be some millionaire classic computer collector to > attract that kind of attention. A keyfob is so much trouble to > scammers and phishers that they don't even bother, they just move to > the millions of others who don't use one. > > And the "but people steal cars locked with The Club too!" argument > doesn't work here -- The Club is a placebo. Any hacksaw can get > through it in 45 seconds. The keyfob has a six-digit number seeded > specifically for you and changes once a minute and the period is > something crazy, like 2^19337 before it repeats. Our bones will turn > to dust long before the number is guessable :-) > > Bottom line: Don't fear the keyfob. It's a no-brainer for $6. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Nov 2 16:18:24 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:18:24 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472B9420.1050507@mdrconsult.com> David Griffith wrote: > I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases that > has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and > perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. This device is a regular RS232 > serial terminal. Plug in a monitor, keyboard, and something talking rs232 > and you're ready to go. Inside there would be a microprocessor, some ram, > some flash, and an FPGA to take care of glue logic and talking to the VGA > port. The FPGA would be loaded with the digital schematics of a > particular terminal and its firmware, for instance, a Wyse 85 or 99GT (my > favorites). That would get you most of the usual emulations. > > How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it > cost? oooh, neat! So, I'm thinking that even I can still read 132 x 40 on a 10" diagonal screen. If a 10" LCD was the "boxtop", that gives you a 6" x 8" form factor, inclusive of everything but the keyboard. If you wanted to go seriously compact, use one of the fold-up Palm keyboards. Me, I have fat fingers and would prefer a PS/2 or USB port. Would it be practical to have some sort of removable storage - flash drive, CF, or whatever - act as the ROM? That way one could use a VT320 with a PDP-11 and a 3153 with an RS/6000, with no more trouble than swapping CF cards. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 2 16:18:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:18:50 -0700 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board Message-ID: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com> Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. Thanks, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 2 16:29:46 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:29:46 -0700 Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! Message-ID: <472B96CA.2050301@bitsavers.org> I am pleased to announce that Hewlett Packard and The Computer History Museum have as of today entered into an agreement allowing CHM to preserve and redistribute all of the software (objects and sources) along with documentation for the 21xx/1000 family of computers for non-commercial use. The software has been explicitly licensed for use both on simulators and real hardware. HP has also donated a large collection of manuals and software distributions, primarily from the late 80s and forward, which complements what CHM already had from earlier software releases. CHM will continue to be actively involved in trying to find all of the earlier software releases which weren't in the HP archives. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 2 16:32:23 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472B9420.1050507@mdrconsult.com> References: <472B9420.1050507@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Doc Shipley wrote: > oooh, neat! > > So, I'm thinking that even I can still read 132 x 40 on a 10" > diagonal screen. If a 10" LCD was the "boxtop", that gives you a 6" x > 8" form factor, inclusive of everything but the keyboard. If you wanted > to go seriously compact, use one of the fold-up Palm keyboards. Me, I > have fat fingers and would prefer a PS/2 or USB port. > > Would it be practical to have some sort of removable storage - flash > drive, CF, or whatever - act as the ROM? That way one could use a VT320 > with a PDP-11 and a 3153 with an RS/6000, with no more trouble than > swapping CF cards. I don't see why not. It would start to resemble a Commodore One that way. Hmm... Ditch the dedicated CPU and make the FPGA into whatever CPU is needed for the particular terminal. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Nov 2 16:34:46 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:34:46 -0500 Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! In-Reply-To: <472B96CA.2050301@bitsavers.org> References: <472B96CA.2050301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <472B97F6.2040208@mdrconsult.com> Al Kossow wrote: > I am pleased to announce that Hewlett Packard and The Computer History > Museum have as > of today entered into an agreement allowing CHM to preserve and > redistribute all of the > software (objects and sources) along with documentation for the > 21xx/1000 family of > computers for non-commercial use. > > The software has been explicitly licensed for use both on simulators and > real hardware. > > HP has also donated a large collection of manuals and software > distributions, primarily > from the late 80s and forward, which complements what CHM already had > from earlier software > releases. > > CHM will continue to be actively involved in trying to find all of the > earlier software > releases which weren't in the HP archives. Woah. That is a huge deal! I can't imagine the amount of time & patience that went into making this agreement. Good work! Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 2 16:41:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:41:10 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472B9420.1050507@mdrconsult.com> References: , <472B9420.1050507@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <472B3706.19514.61F7F5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2007 at 16:18, Doc Shipley wrote: > Would it be practical to have some sort of removable storage - flash > drive, CF, or whatever - act as the ROM? That way one could use a VT320 > with a PDP-11 and a 3153 with an RS/6000, with no more trouble than > swapping CF cards. The local recycler was selling mini Centrino(IIRC) PCs that had 256MB DRAM, a USB port and video, mouse and keyboard connections. It may also have had a floppy interface somewhere. Powered from a wall wart, these were intended to host some sort of public web browser. At the time, they were asking $5 the each. One could easily stick a flash RAM dongle into the USB port. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 2 16:44:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:44:00 -0700 Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! Message-ID: <200711022144.lA2LiHEv097378@billy.ezwind.net> Anna Mancini, the HP corporate archivist, along with the corporate PR department has always been very aware of and friendly to historians and hobbyists. For example they're allowing me to republish the 1979 Gordon Dickson story, "Thank you, Beep" which they commissioned for an issue of the HP Calculator Journal -- the article was never published elsewhere or online. So I am happy, but definitely not surprised, to hear this news about the manuals. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 2 16:56:02 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:56:02 -0700 Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! Message-ID: <472B9CF2.5070104@bitsavers.org> > Woah. That is a huge deal! I can't imagine the amount of time & > patience that went into making this agreement. The exciting thing is this is the most comprehensive agreenment we've ever been able to get from a computer manufacturer, and we're hoping we can use it as an example for other systems. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 17:10:23 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:10:23 -0700 Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! In-Reply-To: <472B9CF2.5070104@bitsavers.org> References: <472B9CF2.5070104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90711021510k455db6f2wf81a28b15cf21c70@mail.gmail.com> On 11/2/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > The exciting thing is this is the most comprehensive agreenment we've ever > been able to get from a computer manufacturer, and we're hoping we can use > it as an example for other systems. > That is extremely cool. What are the plans for where / when / how this will all be made available? From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 17:25:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:25:17 -0400 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB > and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. Me too! Seriously, I'm looking too. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 17:26:37 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:26:37 -0400 Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! In-Reply-To: <472B9CF2.5070104@bitsavers.org> References: <472B9CF2.5070104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <472BA41D.6010107@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Woah. That is a huge deal! I can't imagine the amount of time & > > patience that went into making this agreement. > > The exciting thing is this is the most comprehensive agreenment we've ever > been able to get from a computer manufacturer, and we're hoping we can use > it as an example for other systems. Indeed! Kudos! Peace... Sridhar From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Nov 2 17:29:27 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! In-Reply-To: <472B96CA.2050301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <110543.87848.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > I am pleased to announce that Hewlett Packard and > The Computer History Museum have as > of today entered into an agreement allowing CHM to > preserve and redistribute all of the > software (objects and sources) along with > documentation for the 21xx/1000 family of > computers for non-commercial use. Al, this is great news! Congratualations to you and anyone else at CHM who was involved in this. I hope this becomes an example for other companies, for example DG/EMC. --Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 2 17:31:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> References: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com> <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071102153124.K46677@shell.lmi.net> > > Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB > > and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. > Me too! > Seriously, I'm looking too. Would Tall Tree "JRAM" work for you? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 2 17:34:01 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:34:01 -0700 Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! Message-ID: <472BA5D9.1080106@bitsavers.org> > That is extremely cool. What are the plans for where / when / how > this will all be made available? It will probably go out on CD/DVD in stages as things are sorted out. There has been a volunteer going through the tape images as I've been reading them checking the contents and making inventories. I need to check with the people working on 2000 TSB to see what they might have as well. We wrote the license so that a sublicensee can redistribute with the same rights that CHM has, so a CD tree may be possible. I don't think CHM will be able to handle a click-through distribution on the web any time soon. I suspect some subset of the software will be available with SIMH as well. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 2 17:50:04 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:50:04 +0000 Subject: Classiccmpers around Yorkshire? Message-ID: <1194043804.13579.2.camel@elric> Hey folks, I've bought a sampler off eBay - Casio FZ-10m, contains an 8086, is user-programmable (Casio released the SDK, apparently) and is way more than 10 years old, so fairly on-topic I'd say. I need to get it shipped from Huddersfield up to Glasgow. Is there anyone within striking distance that could be persuaded to pick it up from the seller, package it and send it up? I'll pay for all the costs and throw in a few beer vouchers too. Gordon From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Nov 2 17:57:37 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:57:37 +0000 Subject: Classiccmpers around Yorkshire? In-Reply-To: <1194043804.13579.2.camel@elric> Message-ID: On 2/11/07 22:50, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > Hey folks, > I've bought a sampler off eBay - Casio FZ-10m, contains an 8086, is > user-programmable (Casio released the SDK, apparently) and is way more > than 10 years old, so fairly on-topic I'd say. I need to get it shipped > from Huddersfield up to Glasgow. Is there anyone within striking > distance that could be persuaded to pick it up from the seller, package > it and send it up? I'll pay for all the costs and throw in a few beer > vouchers too. I've got a couple of mates in Huddersfield as it happens, I'll ask them if they're up for it. Watch this space :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 2 14:20:41 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:20:41 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> References: Message-ID: <6bplrs$59gpl8@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> > David Griffith wrote: > According to slashdot, Walmart is selling an Ubunto based > Linux PC for around $200, without monitor. This is apparently Snip > > So, $200 is the price to try to beat. > This is ITX board based on C7 CPU at 1.5GHz. Quiet and cool running cpu. ITX board factor is 7.6"x7.6" and uses 4 of micro atx mounting points and much of the stuff is PC hardware (IDE, SATA, PCI, memory (usually DDR) etc. 200 is a honking good deal for repurposing this PC into something else you like to do with. Cheers, Wizard From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Nov 2 18:54:25 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 19:54:25 -0400 Subject: HP/CHM 21xx/1000 software agreement signed! In-Reply-To: <472B96CA.2050301@bitsavers.org> References: <472B96CA.2050301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200711022354.lA2NsSLZ013321@mail.bcpl.net> On 2 Nov 2007 at 14:29, Al Kossow wrote: > I am pleased to announce that Hewlett Packard and The Computer History > Museum have as of today entered into an agreement allowing CHM to > preserve and redistribute all of the software (objects and sources) > along with documentation for the 21xx/1000 family of computers for > non-commercial use. Superb. Heartfelt thanks, Al, to you and to the CHM for all of the hard work that has made this possible. -- Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 18:09:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:09:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: <20071101232106.1D6605668A@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Nov 1, 7 07:21:06 pm Message-ID: > > I got quite good and peeling off those 'Removing this label voids the > > warranty' stickers over one of the case screws of later TRS-80 devices. I > > never bothereed to put them back, just stuck them on a sheet of silicone > > paper (backing from Letraset ru-down letters) in case I ever did want to > > return the unit. Never did of course, it was less hassle to fix it myself. > > > > wot?! You don't just punch through it with the screwdriver? ;) Well, I do that _now_ because I don't care about the warranty. It's less hassle and often cheaper just to fix the darn thing myself if it goes wrong. In fact the only thing I'e ought new relatively recently and not voided the warranty on the first day of owning it was my lathe, but that's only becasue you're _expected_ to take that apart. You even get a set of spanners and allen keys included to do just that. But back then I knew a little less about computer hardware, and I actually thought that the manufactuers service department moght actually have some clue. So I might have stuck the label back on and taken the machine in for repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 18:13:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:13:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: <20071101164625.X98931@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 1, 7 04:55:31 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > drilling a hole down the middle > > a left handed drillbit is significantly better than a conventional one, > since it will be tending towards loosening, not tightening. Reminds me of the first time I took a 5.25" full-height floppy apart. I tried to undo the screw in the centre of the direct-drive motor's rotor, it wouldn't move, and in the end the head twisted off. I took the rest of the driv apart, and then started to drill out the remains of that screw. It came out as I was drilling. You guessed it, it was a LH thread, that's why I'd twided the head off. I _think_ I just re-tapped the hole for a slightly larger RH screw and put the thing hack together. It's still working. Now, of course, I know to check for that before shearing the head off the screw. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 18:23:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:23:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: <472A175D.14238.1BBD938@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 1, 7 06:13:49 pm Message-ID: > I've come to the conclusion that most people who have success with > tap extractors buy really cheap taps that break if you look at them > crosseyed. A good tap, when it breaks is impossible to remove with a > tap extractor. Good tapes are, of course, hard and thus brittle. Most of the time tape break for one of 4 reasons : 1) Applying a sideways force (not just a torque) to the tap. Often by using a ppoor tap wrench 2) Not clearing ou the swarf often enough. The old rule was '1 turn forwards, them half a turn back (to clear the swarf)' With practice you can feel when it's gettign too stiff, I normally remove the tap completely every few turns (peaticularly on blind holes) to clear the hole out/ 3) Using a blunt tap 4) Haivng too small a hole to tap. I suspect a tap extractor would work for case (1), but the sort of person to have a tap extractor is also the sort of person to use the right tap wrench and apply an even torque to it. > > A very slick way to remove a steel bolt or tap that's sheared off in > an aluminum casting (e.g. a hard disk body) is to use nitric acid > and a little heat--the acid doesn't bother the aluminum but eats > enough of the steel to loosen it for removal. I've heard that alum > (I don't know what sort, probably amonium) also works. I've heard EDM can work for this, but I've never tried it. The though of discharing large capacitors charged to 50V or so is a little 'interesting' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 18:17:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:17:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <003901c81ce9$814acda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Nov 2, 7 00:44:18 am Message-ID: [Memotech MTX500 manual] > Dunno about on the web, but I probably still have my copy lying around > somewhere....I don't recall seeing any PAL equations in it though. Hmmm.. I remmeber seeing it about 10 years ago (and it was old then, of course). I don't recall if it was the a Technical manual, or just the normal user manual, but I strongly suspect the latter. Anyway, a friend had it, and showed me the schematics in the back. I noticed the 14L4 (I think) and jokingly said 'OK, what about the PAL equations'. He flipped back a couple of pages in the manaul amd there they were. But being a 14L4 (no feedback terms, so purrely combinatiorial logic), it would be very easy to reverse-enginner if the equations aren't given. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 18:59:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:59:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <472AF115.15463.50E4C6D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 7 09:42:45 am Message-ID: > Only as far as type and utility goes. A modern 3.5" drive is just as > useful as an old Sony 0AD SS 3.5" drive, even if it only spins at 300 Not if you're restoring an HP drive unit, or an Apricot, or... it isn't! > RPM. So I dumped my old Sony drives. But, for example, I have both And there I am trying to work out how to make all the special service tools for them... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 2 19:33:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:33:30 -0700 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <472AF115.15463.50E4C6D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 7 09:42:45 am, Message-ID: <472B5F6A.20278.75D73E@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2007 at 23:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > Only as far as type and utility goes. A modern 3.5" drive is just as > > useful as an old Sony 0AD SS 3.5" drive, even if it only spins at 300 > > Not if you're restoring an HP drive unit, or an Apricot, or... it isn't! I wonder if a DSHD 3.5" drive could simply be persuaded to spin the diskette twice as fast--they certainly run just fine at 360 RPM. I've never had to address the 2X issue (I'm more interested in reading disks from the old gear than restoring the old gear). Some of the old duplicator equipment used 2X and 4X drives, so there's another source for you. Or the FDC clock rate could be halved and a normal drive be used. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 2 20:06:15 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 01:06:15 -0000 Subject: British Computers. References: Message-ID: <002701c81db5$bc130bb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....Pity 90% of the machines out there have suffered the same >black-screen death. One of these days I'll get a probe on one >to see what's not working..... I wonder if that's related to a design problem I recall seeing mentioned in the service manual? Something to do with the clock generator failing to start, later machines were redesigned and ISTR the manual detailed how to modify the original machines. The problem usually resulted in a "dead" machine with black screen BTW. > Mine are in easy reach but I didn't get the original message that >this is a reply to, anything I can dig out? It was an old message from a few weeks ago, I'd missed it thanks to my wonderfully reliable mail server.... Tony was asking if the Memotech service manual was available on the web anywhere? TTFN - Pete. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Nov 2 20:25:05 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711030129.VAA14852@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 1) Applying a sideways force (not just a torque) to the tap. Often > by using a ppoor tap wrench > I suspect a tap extractor would work for case (1), but the sort of > person to have a tap extractor is also the sort of person to use the > right tap wrench and apply an even torque to it. Yes...but everyone makes mistakes occasionally. (Which is why tap extractors find a market, I daresay.) I've broken tools like drill bits and taps now and then. Most of them are things like my grip slipping or some such - where I knew what to do and was trying to do it, but Something Went Wrong - but there have been a few cases that were pure brain fade.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 21:50:06 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5251 keyboard Message-ID: <140531.79403.qm@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I recently purchased an old keyboard looking to reuse the parts for another project. I did a little research into exactly what I bought since no one seemed to know. It turns out it is a keyboard for an old IBM 5251 terminal from approximately 1977. Here are some photos: http://www.eldocountry.com/Computer/5251.jpg http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10878_11-3370-4.html Now, I don't really care too much about IBM mainframe terminals or whatever this thing is but as I *do* care about vintage computers. I know how hard it can be to get parts sometimes so before I tear this keyboard up and recycle it into something else, is anyone looking for one of these keyboards? Are they common? Are they rare? It is IBM part 7361073. All I want it for is the case, the mechanical switch keyboard, and the cabling. I was planning on tossing the small controller inside into the trash but I thought I would ask the CCTALK list to see if anyone cares before I rip this keyboard up for my latest project. Anyone? Please speak up now if you are interested. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 2 20:10:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:10:16 +1300 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <472B5F6A.20278.75D73E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <472AF115.15463.50E4C6D@cclist.sydex.com> <472B5F6A.20278.75D73E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071103011016.GA15022@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 05:33:30PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder if a DSHD 3.5" drive could simply be persuaded to spin the > diskette twice as fast... > That's like the opposite of what Amiga did to add 2MB (raw) high-density floppy support to all models - since it wasn't feasible to get the installed userbase to upgrade their Paula chips, even if C= wanted to make a new one, they went the other way - the drive spins at half-speed when high-density media are inserted so that even a 1985 Paula can keep up with the bitstream. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 3-Nov-2007 at 01:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -44.7 F (-42.6 C) Windchill -74.6 F (-59.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.2 kts Grid 34 Barometer 677.3 mb (10730 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 3 01:03:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:03:38 -0700 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20071103011016.GA15022@usap.gov> References: <472AF115.15463.50E4C6D@cclist.sydex.com>, <472B5F6A.20278.75D73E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071103011016.GA15022@usap.gov> Message-ID: <472BACCA.27843.1A41366@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2007 at 14:10, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That's like the opposite of what Amiga did to add 2MB (raw) high-density > floppy support to all models - since it wasn't feasible to get the > installed userbase to upgrade their Paula chips, even if C= wanted to > make a new one, they went the other way - the drive spins at half-speed > when high-density media are inserted so that even a 1985 Paula can > keep up with the bitstream. In the early days of the PC AT, many PC XT wanted the ability to handle the "new" 1.2MB media. This would have meant replacing the floppy controller for one that could do the tri-rate (250/300/500 Kbps) trick, but such beasts were expensive (I have a Sysgen Omnibridge that I use in my XT and it wasn't cheap). Someone (Fred might remember; my mind is too fuzzy right now) came out with a 1.2MB drive that would spin down to 180 RPM for high density and 300 RPM for double-density use. Pretty slick--no need to replace your FDC, but you get about one-quarter of the read head output voltage at the lower speed, so performance on the inner tracks wasn't wonderful. Cheers, Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 3 03:41:02 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:41:02 +0100 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: <1193919666.14893.2.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <08d2gn20ltu0yh4.231020071137@jvdg.com> <20071101103554.043020e2@SirToby.dinner41.local> <1193919666.14893.2.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <20071103094102.21670c48@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 08:21:06 -0400 David Holland wrote: > I think ESI likes to cook itself, and let the magic smoke escape. > I've got ESI in my Octane, and it runs _HOT_, with what appears to be > only passive cooling. I have ESSI + ESI (dual head) in my Octane and it works well. Make sure that there is no dust in the air inlets. IIRC there is also a PROM setting for fan speed... It is quite common for SGI GFX to run hot. The SolidIMPACT in my Indigo2 R10k runs almost hot enough top burn your fingers if you touch the heat sinks. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From james at attfield.co.uk Sat Nov 3 04:36:54 2007 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:36:54 -0000 Subject: IMI drives (was WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only)) In-Reply-To: <01C81D50.A6653960@MSE_D03> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: M H Stein [mailto:dm561 at torfree.net] > Sent: 02 November 2007 17:02 > To: 'Jim Attfield' > Cc: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: IMI drives (was WTB/WTT S-100 Chassis (UK/Europe only)) > > Well, yes, My M does V... ;-) > > But you wouldn't "lose" CDOS or CP/M, just direct HD access from CDOS; > I haven't seen any CP/M drivers for a WDI-II and IMI HD - have you? > > If Cromix couldn't run your software for some reason or you want the CP/M > "look and feel" you could always still run off a couple of 1MB > floppies and > then use Cromix to archive your files on the HD. > > Anyway, just thought I'd mention it in case you happen to run across > an STDC before you find an IMI HD. > > mike No, no CP/M drivers spotted for WDI-II as yet. In truth, AFAICR, CDOS did everything I needed it to, there was just the occasional problem when an incompatible system call was used. For sure, if I saw an STDC that would be worth snagging :-) Jim From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Nov 3 10:33:33 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 15:33:33 +0000 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <002701c81db5$bc130bb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 3/11/07 01:06, "Ensor" wrote: > I wonder if that's related to a design problem I recall seeing mentioned in > the service manual? Something to do with the clock generator failing to > start, later machines were redesigned and ISTR the manual detailed how to > modify the original machines. > > The problem usually resulted in a "dead" machine with black screen BTW. ...which is what all of my dead ones do. >> Mine are in easy reach but I didn't get the original message that >> this is a reply to, anything I can dig out? > > It was an old message from a few weeks ago, I'd missed it thanks to my > wonderfully reliable mail server.... I've only just been resubbed after many months off-list, I tried to get back on with my gmail address as I was having problems with the old domain and I guessed Jay was busy at work so I didn't hassle him about it :) > Tony was asking if the Memotech service manual was available on the web > anywhere? Hm, I thought I had a copy but I've just dug out a pair of user manuals instead....but wait. One is the earlier draft and the other is the later one that has the PAL Specs written by Geoff Boyd himself as well as full schematics - this should be the book that has the modifications to rectify my dead machines? Time for some mid-afternoon reading I think! cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 3 10:43:22 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <472BACCA.27843.1A41366@cclist.sydex.com> References: <472AF115.15463.50E4C6D@cclist.sydex.com>, <472B5F6A.20278.75D73E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071103011016.GA15022@usap.gov> <472BACCA.27843.1A41366@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071103084215.S91575@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > In the early days of the PC AT, many PC XT wanted the ability to > handle the "new" 1.2MB media. This would have meant replacing the > floppy controller for one that could do the tri-rate (250/300/500 > Kbps) trick, but such beasts were expensive (I have a Sysgen > Omnibridge that I use in my XT and it wasn't cheap). Someone (Fred > might remember; my mind is too fuzzy right now) came out with a 1.2MB > drive that would spin down to 180 RPM for high density and 300 RPM > for double-density use. Pretty slick--no need to replace your FDC, > but you get about one-quarter of the read head output voltage at the > lower speed, so performance on the inner tracks wasn't wonderful. Weltec I heard (unconfirmed) that the speed at 180RPM wasn't always close enough From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 3 13:01:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:01:44 -0400 Subject: raised flooring? Message-ID: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> Hey folks. Does anyone know of any used raised flooring available, either free or really cheap, preferably in the southeastern US? I'm only looking for about 800 sq. ft. or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Nov 3 13:48:53 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation In-Reply-To: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> Message-ID: 3 total Also includes AED512 graphic term Heres one: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1426358&convertTo=USD Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Nov 3 13:52:35 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation In-Reply-To: References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2007, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:48:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: Peter C. Wallace > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation > > 3 total Make that 5! > > Also includes AED512 graphic term Heres one: > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1426358&convertTo=USD > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 17:12:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:12:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <472B5F6A.20278.75D73E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 7 05:33:30 pm Message-ID: > > > Only as far as type and utility goes. A modern 3.5" drive is just as > > > useful as an old Sony 0AD SS 3.5" drive, even if it only spins at 300 > > > > Not if you're restoring an HP drive unit, or an Apricot, or... it isn't! > > I wonder if a DSHD 3.5" drive could simply be persuaded to spin the > diskette twice as fast--they certainly run just fine at 360 RPM. > I've never had to address the 2X issue (I'm more interested in > reading disks from the old gear than restoring the old gear). > > Some of the old duplicator equipment used 2X and 4X drives, so > there's another source for you. > > Or the FDC clock rate could be halved and a normal drive be used. Oh quite likely any of those things _could_ be done, and may have to be done sometime, but for now I'd ratehr keep the machines are original as possible and repair the existing drives. I am not one of these collectors who insists on every part having the right date code, but I don;t like changing the design _at all_. Most of tyhe time the problem is hardened grease on the eject mechanuism, which is easy to cure by taking the thing apart and cleaning up the parts. The problem comes if it's not been caught in time, but instead the upper (down) head has been caught in the disk shutter when the disk is ejected. Then it's time for a new head assembly, which you have to raid from a similar drive. Single-head drives suffer from hardened grease just the same, but of course the head doesn't get damaged I've not had a fault on the main logic board yet. There is a mask-programmed microcontroller (not supriningly), but everything else is standard. I have had problems with the spindle motors in the doule-head models. One time the motor commutator chip died, it's a standard one used in VCRs, etc, so I could find a replacement. Another time a hall sensor failed, I raided one from the motor in a drive where I'd already taken the head carriage. I ahve never had to do a head alignemnt. I've replaced head assemblies. put the alignment disk it and found the CE patten to be well withing tolerance. According to the docs I have there were at least 3 special tools used for a full analignemt, one was a knob to fit on the stepper motor spindle and allowthe latter to be tuned by hand (easy to make). One was a tool like a screwdrier but with a pinion at the business end, used to turn the stepper motor. That's probably makable too, but I'd love to see an original one and count the teeth, etc. The last was a weight used to check the head compliance, I would love to borrow one of those and measure the mass. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 17:13:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:13:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20071103011016.GA15022@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 3, 7 02:10:16 pm Message-ID: > That's like the opposite of what Amiga did to add 2MB (raw) high-density > floppy support to all models - since it wasn't feasible to get the > installed userbase to upgrade their Paula chips, even if C= wanted to > make a new one, they went the other way - the drive spins at half-speed > when high-density media are inserted so that even a 1985 Paula can > keep up with the bitstream. I've heard of 1.2M 5.25" drives that spun at 180rpm (not the normal 360rpm) so that a PC/XT controller could read/write 1.2M disks. I have never seen one, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 17:40:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:40:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Nov 3, 7 03:33:33 pm Message-ID: > Hm, I thought I had a copy but I've just dug out a pair of user manuals > instead....but wait. One is the earlier draft and the other is the later one > that has the PAL Specs written by Geoff Boyd himself as well as full > schematics - this should be the book that has the modifications to rectify > my dead machines? Time for some mid-afternoon reading I think! That sounds remarkably like the manual I rememebr reading 10 years ago... Any chance of the schematics and PAL equations being copied or scanned sometime? _One day_ I might get round to looking at this fine machine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 17:18:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:18:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: <200711030129.VAA14852@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 2, 7 09:25:05 pm Message-ID: > > > 1) Applying a sideways force (not just a torque) to the tap. Often > > by using a ppoor tap wrench > > > I suspect a tap extractor would work for case (1), but the sort of > > person to have a tap extractor is also the sort of person to use the > > right tap wrench and apply an even torque to it. > > Yes...but everyone makes mistakes occasionally. (Which is why tap > extractors find a market, I daresay.) Of course. I suspect the machninist who's never broken a tap is like the electornic engiener who's never blown a chop. Downright useless because they've never done anything :-) > > I've broken tools like drill bits and taps now and then. Most of them As have I. One of the problems with small twist drills is that they screw themselves into the workpiece when cutting, so if you don't feed them fast enough they strech and break. Had that happn a couple of times I find it very annoying that most companies that sell small (<2mm) taps only sell them in sets of many sizes, and not individually. I know for a fact I am going to break them from time to time, and I don't want to have to replace the cet each time. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 3 18:53:05 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 17:53:05 -0600 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> References: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com> <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <472D09E1.5010802@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB >> and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. > > Me too! > > Seriously, I'm looking too. > > Peace... Sridhar I am looking for anything that *DOES* not end in 86. > . From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 3 18:54:53 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 17:54:53 -0600 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> References: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com> <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <472D0A4D.4010705@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB >> and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. > > Me too! > > Seriously, I'm looking too. > > Peace... Sridhar Oops - wrong message -- thought topic was serial terminal. Where do you find a 286? > . > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 3 19:03:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 17:03:35 -0700 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20071103084215.S91575@shell.lmi.net> References: <472AF115.15463.50E4C6D@cclist.sydex.com>, <472BACCA.27843.1A41366@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071103084215.S91575@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <472CA9E7.14419.580CCB1@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2007 at 8:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > Weltec > > I heard (unconfirmed) that the speed at 180RPM wasn't always close enough That's the one! I could well imagine that if it was a retrofitted standard 1.2MB drive that the ISV at 180 RPM might be pretty awful. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 3 19:23:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 17:23:00 -0700 Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: References: <200711030129.VAA14852@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 2, 7 09:25:05 pm, Message-ID: <472CAE74.3076.5929270@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2007 at 22:18, Tony Duell wrote: > As have I. One of the problems with small twist drills is that they screw > themselves into the workpiece when cutting, so if you don't feed them > fast enough they strech and break. Had that happn a couple of times > > I find it very annoying that most companies that sell small (<2mm) taps > only sell them in sets of many sizes, and not individually. I know for a > fact I am going to break them from time to time, and I don't want to have > to replace the cet each time. Small Parts (http://www.smallparts.com) here sells metric taps and dies in sets of the same size down to M1.0. I suspect that the same can be gotten from McMaster-Carr in the US and from many places in the UK. Strangely, I've found it easier to find oddball tools in the UK than in the USA. Much below 2mm, my hands and eyes just aren't steady enough to trust, even with the aid of a loupe so I can see. For larger sizes, I use a drill press or lathe to hold the tap or die when possible on the securely-clamped workpiece. It's just too easy to apply side forces or have the workpiece slip with a hand wrench. Solid carbide drills are the things that snap on me. They cut small holes very clean and fast, but they're very brittle. I've broken them simply by inserting them into the drill chuck. Frame saw blades I buy by the hundred--anything less is just silly. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 3 19:28:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 18:28:09 -0600 Subject: Atari ST connectors In-Reply-To: <472CAE74.3076.5929270@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711030129.VAA14852@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 2, 7 09:25:05 pm, <472CAE74.3076.5929270@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472D1219.9050503@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: Frame saw > blades I buy by the hundred--anything less is just silly. And you can make a great knife blade from snapped ones too. > Cheers, > Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 3 21:08:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:08:57 -0700 Subject: Atari ST connectors In-Reply-To: <472D1219.9050503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200711030129.VAA14852@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <472CAE74.3076.5929270@cclist.sydex.com>, <472D1219.9050503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472CC749.24950.5F392DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2007 at 18:28, woodelf wrote: > > blades I buy by the hundred--anything less is just silly. > And you can make a great knife blade from snapped ones too. I'm talking about the jeweler's frame saw. Like so: http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/PROD/jeweler-saw/BET13 Note that the blades are sold by the gross. Basically, they're good for about one, maybe two metal cuts. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 3 21:58:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 20:58:23 -0600 Subject: Atari ST connectors In-Reply-To: <472CC749.24950.5F392DD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711030129.VAA14852@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <472CAE74.3076.5929270@cclist.sydex.com>, <472D1219.9050503@jetnet.ab.ca> <472CC749.24950.5F392DD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472D354F.9050902@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/PROD/jeweler-saw/BET13 > > Note that the blades are sold by the gross. Basically, they're good > for about one, maybe two metal cuts. You learn something every day. Out here you are lucky to find any hand tools and most of that is Chinese quality. > Cheers, > Chuck > > > . > From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 3 23:56:19 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:56:19 -0700 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> References: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com> <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <081801c81e9f$0a296ee0$6a01a8c0@liberator> Intel aboveboards I think would do what you're looking for. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 3:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board Chuck Guzis wrote: > Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB > and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. Me too! Seriously, I'm looking too. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 4 00:43:18 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 00:43:18 -0500 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <472D09E1.5010802@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com> <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com> <472D09E1.5010802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472D5BF6.1020300@oldskool.org> >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB >>> and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. To the original poster (Chuck?), I have an Intel Above Board 286 in original box populated with RAM (not sure how much, but every socket is filled). Missing driver disk and instructions, but these should be floating around somewhere. Let me know if you want it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 4 01:07:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 23:07:20 -0700 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <081801c81e9f$0a296ee0$6a01a8c0@liberator> References: <472B31CA.1077.60B0CDF@cclist.sydex.com>, <472BA3CD.1010806@gmail.com>, <081801c81e9f$0a296ee0$6a01a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <472CFF28.5627.6CDCEA8@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2007 at 21:56, Geoff Reed wrote: > Intel aboveboards I think would do what you're looking for. There were plenty of "clones" of these, thanks to Lotus 1-2-3, so I'm open to anything. Just as long as it supports LIM/EMS or even XMS. Cheers, Chuck From tsw-cc at johana.com Sun Nov 4 05:08:45 2007 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 03:08:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <200711040806.lA4853Yt029182@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <211356.94186.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This talk about an FPGS style terminal sounds neat, but... How about a set of EPROMS that will fit into an XT, or AT motherboard that in combination with standard I/O cards (serial port, CGA video) and will emulate a standard terminal on power on. Obviously this would require input from the keyboard and proper coding of the video display memory. I suspect that very little ram memory would be needed (alternate pages or scrolling memory). Given that smallish older XT motherboards exist with other "surplus" parts, this could be an interesting exercise. For extra credit, add a network interface to make a telnet terminal. While this may not exactly fit the bill, it could possibly fall into the "classic" category, expecially if one uses an old XT motherboard and say 256k bytes of memory (8/9 256k x 1 chips, it was before SIMMs). Just a thought.... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Nov 4 07:38:38 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 13:38:38 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <211356.94186.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <211356.94186.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1194183518.4475.0.camel@elric.inet> On Sun, 2007-11-04 at 03:08 -0800, Tom Watson wrote: > This talk about an FPGS style terminal sounds neat, but... > > How about a set of EPROMS that will fit into an XT, or AT motherboard that in > combination with standard I/O cards (serial port, CGA video) and will emulate a > standard terminal on power on. Obviously this would require input from the I actually have a little board, made by Panic Systems, that has a bit of flash memory and a PAL to do address decoding, and turns a PC into a diskless terminal. Gordon From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 4 08:19:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:19:22 -0500 Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation In-Reply-To: References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> On Nov 3, 2007, at 2:48 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > 3 total > > Also includes AED512 graphic term Heres one: > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1426358&convertTo=USD Oh my. I want one of those AED512s *SO* *BADLY* that I can just taste it. Is anyone going to chase this auction? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 4 08:23:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:23:12 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> Message-ID: <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> On Nov 2, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Kevin Handy wrote: >> I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases >> that >> has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and >> perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. This device is a regular >> RS232 >> serial terminal. Plug in a monitor, keyboard, and something talking >> rs232 >> and you're ready to go. Inside there would be a microprocessor, some >> ram, >> some flash, and an FPGA to take care of glue logic and talking to the >> VGA >> port. The FPGA would be loaded with the digital schematics of a >> particular terminal and its firmware, for instance, a Wyse 85 or 99GT >> (my >> favorites). That would get you most of the usual emulations. >> >> How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it >> cost? >> > According to slashdot, Walmart is selling an Ubunto based > Linux PC for around $200, without monitor. This is apparently > a mini-atx board stuffed into a full sized box with a 80 Gb hard > drive, most of the interfaces you wanted, and probably a warranty. > This gives you a price $200 + Display for something that > can run numerous terminal emulators, even allowing ssh > or telnet. > > So, $200 is the price to try to beat. > > You can probably buy a low end mini-atx based box for a > similar price if size really matters, or design > your own box to stuff it into. This gives you a very flexible > terminal emulator that you can load any number of > emulations into, write your own emulators, and be able to > run local programs (calculator, etc) on. > > If you don't like Linux, you can always load FreeDos or > something else onto it. I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when the OP wanted a *terminal*. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 08:55:38 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 06:55:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation In-Reply-To: <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <714996.73199.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 3, 2007, at 2:48 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > 3 total > > > > Also includes AED512 graphic term Heres one: > > > > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1426358&convertTo=USD > > Oh my. I want one of those AED512s *SO* *BADLY* > that I can just > taste it. Is anyone going to chase this auction? Me too. I _really_ want one of those systems. Nova 4, Kennedy tape, AED512... Man, I wish it would be possible to get one of those. Unfortunately I'm 1000 miles away. -Ian From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Nov 4 09:16:34 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 15:16:34 +0000 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/11/07 22:40, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> Hm, I thought I had a copy but I've just dug out a pair of user manuals >> instead....but wait. One is the earlier draft and the other is the later one >> that has the PAL Specs written by Geoff Boyd himself as well as full >> schematics - this should be the book that has the modifications to rectify >> my dead machines? Time for some mid-afternoon reading I think! > > That sounds remarkably like the manual I rememebr reading 10 years ago... > > Any chance of the schematics and PAL equations being copied or scanned > sometime? _One day_ I might get round to looking at this fine machine... If my scanner is playing nice I can get them online, yes. It normally has a fit when I try to use it, bless. Also, that manual isn't the one that has the mods to restart the clock so they must only be in the service manual? They ARE lovely machines. One of these days I'll also find out why my FDX subsystems aren't well too - I have 3 and they're all dead..... cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 4 11:39:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 10:39:49 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472E03E5.3010507@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when the > OP wanted a *terminal*. A 6809 terminal sounds easy. :) > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > . > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 4 11:55:10 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 12:55:10 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E03E5.3010507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> <472E03E5.3010507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0e2bd7b785cc376c387368cfbc1fe885@neurotica.com> On Nov 4, 2007, at 12:39 PM, woodelf wrote: >> I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when >> the OP wanted a *terminal*. > A 6809 terminal sounds easy. :) And fun! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From roosmcd at dds.nl Sun Nov 4 12:14:09 2007 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (Michiel) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:14:09 +0100 Subject: Intergraph Clipper 2000 In-Reply-To: <200711041800.lA4I0NnI033055@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711041800.lA4I0NnI033055@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <472E0BF1.70109@dds.nl> Hello, Since this has mostly been gathering dust lately, I have the following Clipper system for trade/sale/???: Intergraph 2000 system with 64MB RAM (maximum) extra 3x 16MB RAM (new) 20" monitor (with metal housing :) ) keyboard and mouse Clix installation media (floppies + cd's) and a set of documentation Last time I tried this system was working great, but it has been at least two years since I last tried it. There was a CAD package installed, IIRC microstation. All reasonable offers considered, located in The Netherlands. Shipping would be possible, but probably without the 20" monitor. greetings, Michiel From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Nov 4 13:25:04 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 14:25:04 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <0e2bd7b785cc376c387368cfbc1fe885@neurotica.com> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> <472E03E5.3010507@jetnet.ab.ca> <0e2bd7b785cc376c387368cfbc1fe885@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472E1C90.50702@atarimuseum.com> Saw this on YouTube - nice video from 1982 that discusses Tron and how movies/TV would change due to Supercomputer based graphics... lots of great shots of a Cray 1, terminals and other graphic computer devices: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu5_33uRNzc Curt From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 13:05:52 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:05:52 +0000 Subject: FTGH: EISA caching IDE controller Message-ID: Hi list, I have here a card bearing no ID except the stickers on the EPROMs, which say "(C) 1991 DataCare International Co.". It's EISA, and has two IDE connectors (marked "TO FIRST IDE DRIVE" and "TO SECOND IDE DRIVE", a floppy connector, and 4 30-pin SIMM sockets (all are populated). I don't know anything more than this about it. If anyone would like this, pay shipping from Yorkshire, UK for it and it's yours. Ed. From kth at srv.net Sun Nov 4 13:25:38 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:25:38 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > > I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when > the OP wanted a *terminal*. 1. Price. The hardware costs of a one-time development project can be more than using a readily available general purpose device. You can run down to any thrift store and buy everything you need for something like this for under $20. 2. Time. It takes less time to go out and buy the hardware than it takes to design, fab, debug, redesign, refab, redebug, ... 3. Ease of development. All the tools are already there: compilers, debuggers, profilers, etc. 4. Ease of Repair. If the hardware dies, worst case you just need another run to the local thrift store. With a specialized solution, you need to spend several hours repairing it, wait for several days for repair parts to be shipped to you, ... 5. Expandability. Using a PC means you can easily supply many different terminal emulators easily, many of them already written. With an FPGA, you probably need to develop them all by yourself. 6. Bugs. When your software is composed of EPROMS and FPGA's, fixing bugs requires more than just a recompile. You need a development system, a device programmer, toolkit to disassemble and reassemble the unit, etc. 7. Ease of duplicating. You discover you need 10 more of these for some customer. Instead of sending out for 10 PC boards, 10 sets of components (many probably obsolete), building them, burning assorted FPGA,s, EPROMS, etc., when you can just buy 10 cheap PC's and you're done. ... I don't understand why someone would want to spend 10x more tima and money on a one-purpose device, when they can get everything they want and more off a cheap PC. From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 4 13:24:41 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 15:24:41 -0400 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <01C81EF6.F2B9A560@mandr71> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 12:55:10 -0500 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: modern serial terminal On Nov 4, 2007, at 12:39 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when >>> the OP wanted a *terminal*. >> A 6809 terminal sounds easy. :) > And fun! ----------------- A moot distinction; what's the difference? If you must have a terminal box instead of just running your vintage hardware from the computer on your desk, just take an old laptop, remove the (perhaps broken) display, stick a USB or Flash disk in it to boot and run emulation S/W from, plug in your keyboard, display and RS-232 cable and how's that different in any real sense from a fancy terminal? CPU, EEPROM, RAM and I/O; sounds the same to me, and probably free... Except of course for the added features of programmability, extra memory, up/download and text capture capability, network access, RS-232<>Internet bridge capability, printer & USB ports, alternate keyboard, modem, etc. I've got a dozen terminals here gathering dust; my small 486 Compaq laptop is portable and way more convenient. The only terminal I have kept on my desk is a Cromemco C-5 to run one particular HD diagnostic program because AFAIK there isn't an emulator for Cromemco 3101-style terminals, but a couple of us are working on it so I hope to be able to retire that one as well soon. I have to admit that using an XT doesn't make much sense to me either though; why would anyone... (oh, oh, starting to sound like Tony...) If you insist, I have a couple of 6502-based Linger 65/9028VT terminal boards (abt 6"x4", Heath/Televideo/Hazeltine/ANSI etc.) and also a bunch of 8631/8563-based Crestline CT-128 colour terminals in enclosures (abt 8"x5"x2", Intecolor, VGA/composite); the only catch is that there's no source available for the EPROMs AFAIK (although there _might_ be). mike From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 13:49:33 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:49:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: eBay - Adelaide Australis - Zenith Z-100/120/? Message-ID: <311070.3702.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> not very expensive at the moment, and has a few problems, but at least well worth it at the current bid (sorry, forgot to copy the item #): http://cgi.ebay.com/ZENITH-data-systems-computor_ W0QQitemZ110186173215QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ray at arachelian.com Sun Nov 4 14:26:58 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 15:26:58 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <01C81EF6.F2B9A560@mandr71> References: <01C81EF6.F2B9A560@mandr71> Message-ID: <472E2B12.4040002@arachelian.com> M H Stein wrote: > ----------------- > A moot distinction; what's the difference? If you must have a terminal box > instead of just running your vintage hardware from the computer on your > desk, just take an old laptop, remove the (perhaps broken) display, stick a > USB or Flash disk in it to boot and run emulation S/W from, plug in your > keyboard, display and RS-232 cable and how's that different in any real > sense from a fancy terminal? CPU, EEPROM, RAM and I/O; sounds the > same to me, and probably free... > > That's exactly what I do. I've got a couple of old mini notebooks that I use as terminals. They're worthless for anything else as they're ancient and would only run something like win95, so I set'em up to boot up in Hyperterm. Now, my main "terminal" is my trusty HP LX200 plamtop, which I use as a console for things like Sun servers when the odd datacenter trip is required by the job. It's small, tiny, and is happy to use 2xAA batteries, and has a built in terminal program, just barely a vt102 clone, but good enough. (It's also got Lotus123, and quicken for DOS, etc.) If you hunt one of these down be sure to get a serial cable for it, as they're non-standard. If you've got some sub/mini notebook around with a serial port, even if the batteries are shot, rig it so it boots into something like Telix, minicom, or hyperterminal, and you're set. No need to mess with ROMs or what not. If you really want to get rid of the hard drive, or if the hard drive is dead and beyond replacing, you could look into replacing it with some sort of flash memory. Some of those will boot off flash, if they do, you're all set. Boot up DOS and Telix, and rock on, or better yet throw a mini-linux distro on there and fire up minicom - no need for XWin. If you must, you can boot Linux from a disk-on-chip. See: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8844506693.html For DOS Telix see, but it's expensive, as compared with a mini-linux distro with minicom + lrzsz. see: http://www.telix.com/delta/deltacom/tfd/index.html From grant at stockly.com Sun Nov 4 14:30:51 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:30:51 -0900 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <472B9420.1050507@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <0JR000NWF12T5830@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >I don't see why not. It would start to resemble a Commodore One that way. >Hmm... Ditch the dedicated CPU and make the FPGA into whatever CPU is >needed for the particular terminal. If you really want a hardware solution then this http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=S3BOARD&Nav1=Products&Nav2=Programmable Would be a great platform. I have acting as a 6809 at 12MHz. Just plug in a PS2 keyboard, VGA monitor, and load paper tape images through the seial port. I would rather have an embedded single board computer running linux. You could get one of those for $200. Grant From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 4 14:33:58 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:33:58 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472E2CB6.7080600@philpem.me.uk> David Griffith wrote: [snip description] > How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it > cost? CPU: I'd use an ARM or Coldfire CPU - a Philips LPC2000 in External Memory mode, or a Freescale MCF5307. Give it a bit of external RAM and Flash, and a CPLD to handle VGA signal generation and supply the glue. Add some keyboard input logic to said CPLD and flash it with U-Boot and Linux. Teach Linux how to control the VGA (basically write a framebuffer driver) and shoehorn a terminal emulator onto it. Bolt on an EEPROM or cheap RTC chip for configuration storage. Job done. Total parts cost: About ?50 tops, excluding PCB and case. Probably about ?100 total. Development time: Most of the OS is done already - the framebuffer driver would be the hard part. I haven't seen much documentation on fbdev/fbcon. Is it worth it? Not really, IMO. What would I do? Get a cheap laptop. A 486SX or something. Put Linux on the hard drive (or shove a cheap CompactFlash card and adapter in there). Voila, instant portable terminal. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 4 14:35:42 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 14:35:42 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472E2D1E.5060805@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when the > OP wanted a *terminal*. Cost, most frankly. Any computer can be any terminal (minus special keys, of course) with software. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Nov 4 14:37:20 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 14:37:20 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net> Message-ID: <472E2D80.6010208@mdrconsult.com> Kevin Handy wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when >> the OP wanted a *terminal*. > I don't understand why someone would want to spend 10x more > tima and money on a one-purpose device, when they can get > everything they want and more off a cheap PC. "Looks around* For gods' sakes, what list is this? Hobbies are not expected to be cost-effective. They're supposed to be fun. Doc From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Nov 4 15:09:15 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 10:09:15 +1300 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E2B12.4040002@arachelian.com> References: <01C81EF6.F2B9A560@mandr71> <472E2B12.4040002@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20071104210915.GB23356@usap.gov> On Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 03:26:58PM -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >----------------- > >A moot distinction; what's the difference? If you must have a terminal box > >instead of just running your vintage hardware from the computer on your > >desk, just take an old laptop, remove the (perhaps broken) display, stick > >a USB or Flash disk in it to boot and run emulation S/W from, plug in your > >keyboard, display and RS-232 cable and how's that different in any real > >sense from a fancy terminal? CPU, EEPROM, RAM and I/O; sounds the > >same to me, and probably free... One of the reasons I still maintain dumb terminals is that I don't have to worry about OS issues, about boot times, bugs in terminal emulators (or lack of emulation of historic terminal bugs), features that I occasionally use like VT100 double-high-double-wide or an EDT keypad. I am periperally (no pun intended) interested in a generic hobby-level, *documented* small terminal core. I don't really care about the processor or FPGAs or whatever. Cost is an issue. Unless it's really cheap, I'll just keep using real terminals or full-on PCs for terminal access for the forseeable future - and by cheap, I mean well under $200. I've bought usable laptops (600MHz, 512MB, Ethernet, USB, Firewire...) for less than half of that this year. > That's exactly what I do. I've got a couple of old mini notebooks that > I use as terminals. They're > worthless for anything else as they're ancient and would only run > something like win95, so I set'em > up to boot up in Hyperterm. I am already doing that, but with even older hardware - an 8-bit Zenith laptop with dual 720K floppies, booting DOS 3.3 and running Kermit. At least it's better emulation than Hyperterm (which IMO is terrible), and since I have a Xircom PE-3 and DOS packet drivers, I can also slap this terminal on a network and telnet around (not that most modern networks *want* you to telnet around anymore). The only thing I want to do with Win95 is play ancient games, and Win98 does a better job of that for me (but that's another topic). > If you must, you can boot Linux from a disk-on-chip. > See: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8844506693.html This is certainly one way to go, and probably easier than hacking BIOS ROMs. I have seen DoC, but haven't done much with it. All of my embedded Linux hacking has been with CF adapters and 2-16MB flash cards. But a VT100 is still ready faster. -ethan P.S. - we still have a few dumb terminals around at Pole, and we still use them to talk to some of our embedded gear. -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 4-Nov-2007 at 20:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.2 F (-40.1 C) Windchill -66.6 F (-54.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.3 kts Grid 52 Barometer 687.4 mb (10350 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Nov 4 15:45:57 2007 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:15:57 +1030 Subject: eBay - Adelaide Australis - Zenith Z-100/120/? In-Reply-To: <311070.3702.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >not very expensive at the moment, and has a few >problems, but at least well worth it at the current >bid (sorry, forgot to copy the item #): > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ZENITH-data-systems-computor_ >W0QQitemZ110186173215QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247QQss >PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com Very nice. I'll see if I can get it. I'm in Adelaide myself so it's convenient. I'll have to see what suburb it's in. Hey, maybe it can replace my current computer. My main 3GHz PC died yesterday and I'm currently using a Macintosh LC630. It's item number 110186173215. Thanks, Alexis. From grant at stockly.com Sun Nov 4 15:45:51 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:45:51 -0900 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <20071104210915.GB23356@usap.gov> References: <01C81EF6.F2B9A560@mandr71> <472E2B12.4040002@arachelian.com> <20071104210915.GB23356@usap.gov> Message-ID: <0JR000HK94JS6P10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >This is certainly one way to go, and probably easier than hacking >BIOS ROMs. I have seen DoC, but haven't done much with it. All of >my embedded Linux hacking has been with CF adapters and 2-16MB flash >cards. > >But a VT100 is still ready faster. > >-ethan > >P.S. - we still have a few dumb terminals around at Pole, and we still >use them to talk to some of our embedded gear. Some of the embedded arm boards from Technologic Solutions have a fast boot kernel and are ready in 1.6 seconds or less. I don't even think an LCD would init that quick. : ) It takes a few more seconds if you want the full apache, services, etc... Grant From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 4 15:57:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 13:57:21 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <0JR000NWF12T5830@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: , , <0JR000NWF12T5830@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <472DCFC1.24227.A33941E@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2007 at 11:30, Grant Stockly wrote: > I would rather have an embedded single board computer running > linux. You could get one of those for $200. I can get one of those for $0-10. It's called a DSL modem and even comes with wireless networking in addition to USB, serial, and 10/100BaseT interfaces. Doubtless cable modems have similar setups. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 4 16:06:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 14:06:17 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E2D80.6010208@mdrconsult.com> References: , <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net>, <472E2D80.6010208@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <472DD1D9.27207.A3BC116@cclist.sydex.com> Which reminds me. I ran across the firmware for two terminals the other day. It's my code, but I'll be darned if I remember anything about the jobs. One is firmware from a Visual "Barrister" terminal. About all that I can gather from a quick glance at the code is that it was Z80-based, as was the other firmware for a Tab 220 terminal. In particular, the code seems to be aimed at using a second serial port and displaying the data from two ports in split-screen mode. I vaguely remember the Tab was a well-constructed box with a green screen, but the Barrister made absolutely no impression on me. It must not have been very good. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 4 16:05:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:05:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E03E5.3010507@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Nov 4, 7 10:39:49 am Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when the > > OP wanted a *terminal*. > A 6809 terminal sounds easy. :) I know I've got terminals with 6809s in them, the problem is remembering which ones. I think my Pericom monochrom graphics terminal does, I also have a colour video terminal made by Microvitec (yes, the commpany better known for the monitor for the BBC micro), I think that's got a 6809 inside. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 4 15:25:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 21:25:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST connectors (was: Atari SIO bus connectors found) In-Reply-To: <472CAE74.3076.5929270@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 3, 7 05:23:00 pm Message-ID: > > Small Parts (http://www.smallparts.com) here sells metric taps and > dies in sets of the same size down to M1.0. I suspect that the same I've not found any such suppliers in the UK, but I will admit I've not done a serious search yet. Most modenl enginners over here use BA threads. BA taps/dies down to 12BA are easy to get (if expensive!), I've seen 14BA ad 16BA > > Much below 2mm, my hands and eyes just aren't steady enough to trust, > even with the aid of a loupe so I can see. For larger sizes, I use a > drill press or lathe to hold the tap or die when possible on the That's what I do. Put the tap in the tailstock chuck (with the tailstock free to slide) and turn the mandrel round by hand. This also gets the tap running straight down the hole -- tapping 'at an angle' is another cause of broken taps, of course. > securely-clamped workpiece. It's just too easy to apply side forces > or have the workpiece slip with a hand wrench. I tend to only use the hand tap wrence for recutting threads or using the second-cut or plug taps. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 4 15:59:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 21:59:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Nov 4, 7 12:25:38 pm Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when > > the OP wanted a *terminal*. > 4. Ease of Repair. If the hardware dies, worst case you just need > another run to the local thrift store. With a specialized solution, > you need to spend several hours repairing it, wait for several > days for repair parts to be shipped to you, ... However, if you built it yourself, you presumably know how it works, and you managed to get all the bits once, so you have a good chance of gettign them again. I know which _I'd_ rather repair.. > I don't understand why someone would want to spend 10x more > tima and money on a one-purpose device, when they can get > everything they want and more off a cheap PC. Probably for the saem reason that some of us run classic computers in preference to PCs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 4 16:02:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:02:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E2D1E.5060805@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Nov 4, 7 02:35:42 pm Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when the > > OP wanted a *terminal*. > > Cost, most frankly. Any computer can be any terminal (minus special > keys, of course) with software. Don;'t you also require that the computer has an alphanumeric keyboard, a video display and a serial port? I can see seveal computers from where I am sittling that are lacking at least one of those facilities. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 4 16:32:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 14:32:13 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E2D80.6010208@mdrconsult.com> References: , <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net>, <472E2D80.6010208@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <472DD7ED.18278.A537E61@cclist.sydex.com> Don't forget old low-end word-processing boxes for use as terminals. They still can be found fairly easily. They usually have at least one serial port, a green-screen display and a disk drive. Processors varied a bit, but Z80 was very popular. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 4 16:40:25 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 17:40:25 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C8204AB-5348-496F-8B73-8BEF5F503624@neurotica.com> On Nov 4, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I don't understand why someone would want to spend 10x more >> tima and money on a one-purpose device, when they can get >> everything they want and more off a cheap PC. > > Probably for the saem reason that some of us run classic computers in > preference to PCs... For me, the reason is simple. Terminal emulators are too damn much trouble...emulation problems, key mapping, etc. I've used pretty much all of them over the years, I think...the best one I've used was SmarTerm 240, and even that is far from perfect. Sometimes what one really needs is an APPLIANCE...not an emulation of said appliance built upon an unstable and problematic platform. Further...A VT320 terminal pulls less than half an ampere at 120V, and is available for use within about fifteen seconds of powerup...can anyone say either of those things for a PC running terminal emulation software? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Nov 4 16:43:08 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 17:43:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: CD player repair Message-ID: <200711042250.RAA13318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> (I hope this doesn't upset Jay. I think it's on-topic according to the semi-bogus the ten-year rule, and it's certainly on-topic in the non-mainstream sense - what I'm trying to do is well outside the norm. Except, possibly, for populations like the one on this list. :) I have a Technics SL-PD8 five-disc CD changer. It's been working fine for a long time; in recent months, it's had trouble ejecting the tray (but not, interestingly, retracting it). Then a day or two ago it stopped playing discs at all. I can't even hear the disk spinning up. So I opened it up, and I have been completely unable to make the disc drive motor spin, with or without a CD in place. I've pulled it apart far enough to have the CD transport mechanism out in the open, and it still won't spin. (In the process, I found the stretched belt that was responsible for the weak eject; I dug through my rubber band collection and replaced it, and now the tray eject works fine.) Now, I'm not Tony; I'm not about to rewind the motor or some such. But I was wondering if anyone knows how similar the mechanism is likely to be to a cheap computer CD reader - basically, I'm wondering if I can raid one of my extra CD drives (of which I have several) for parts to resurrect the Technics. I can just open things up and have a look, but if anyone has experience, it could save me some headaches. Any thoughts? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 16:57:31 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:57:31 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <0e2bd7b785cc376c387368cfbc1fe885@neurotica.com> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> <472E03E5.3010507@jetnet.ab.ca> <0e2bd7b785cc376c387368cfbc1fe885@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472E4E5B.2080801@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when >>> the OP wanted a *terminal*. >> A 6809 terminal sounds easy. :) > > And fun! Didn't someone make a (non-accelerated, I believe) VGA chip for one of the microcontroller busses? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 17:01:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:01:57 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472DCFC1.24227.A33941E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <0JR000NWF12T5830@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <472DCFC1.24227.A33941E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472E4F65.7050600@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Nov 2007 at 11:30, Grant Stockly wrote: > >> I would rather have an embedded single board computer running >> linux. You could get one of those for $200. > > I can get one of those for $0-10. It's called a DSL modem and even > comes with wireless networking in addition to USB, serial, and > 10/100BaseT interfaces. > > Doubtless cable modems have similar setups. Difficult to pull of video on one, though. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 17:02:55 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:02:55 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472E4F9F.6040108@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when the >>> OP wanted a *terminal*. >> Cost, most frankly. Any computer can be any terminal (minus special >> keys, of course) with software. > > Don;'t you also require that the computer has an alphanumeric keyboard, a > video display and a serial port? I can see seveal computers from where I > am sittling that are lacking at least one of those facilities. Now you're just being pedantic. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From grant at stockly.com Sun Nov 4 17:02:58 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 14:02:58 -0900 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472DCFC1.24227.A33941E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JR000NWF12T5830@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <472DCFC1.24227.A33941E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0JR00007S84CK250@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 12:57 PM 11/4/2007, you wrote: >On 4 Nov 2007 at 11:30, Grant Stockly wrote: > > > I would rather have an embedded single board computer running > > linux. You could get one of those for $200. > >I can get one of those for $0-10. It's called a DSL modem and even >comes with wireless networking in addition to USB, serial, and >10/100BaseT interfaces. But no VGA interface for the monitor. : ( Grant From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 17:06:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:06:00 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <3C8204AB-5348-496F-8B73-8BEF5F503624@neurotica.com> References: <3C8204AB-5348-496F-8B73-8BEF5F503624@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472E5058.1000502@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I don't understand why someone would want to spend 10x more >>> tima and money on a one-purpose device, when they can get >>> everything they want and more off a cheap PC. >> >> Probably for the saem reason that some of us run classic computers in >> preference to PCs... > > For me, the reason is simple. Terminal emulators are too damn much > trouble...emulation problems, key mapping, etc. I've used pretty much > all of them over the years, I think...the best one I've used was > SmarTerm 240, and even that is far from perfect. Sometimes what one > really needs is an APPLIANCE...not an emulation of said appliance built > upon an unstable and problematic platform. I also think that running a real terminal just "feels better". But that's probably a matter of personal preference. > Further...A VT320 terminal pulls less than half an ampere at 120V, and > is available for use within about fifteen seconds of powerup...can > anyone say either of those things for a PC running terminal emulation > software? Depends on the PC. I have a PC that meets that description. It is based on a VIA EPIA motherboard and runs PC-DOS. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 17:08:18 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:08:18 -0500 Subject: CD player repair In-Reply-To: <200711042250.RAA13318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200711042250.RAA13318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <472E50E2.9020605@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: > Now, I'm not Tony; I'm not about to rewind the motor or some such. But > I was wondering if anyone knows how similar the mechanism is likely to > be to a cheap computer CD reader - basically, I'm wondering if I can > raid one of my extra CD drives (of which I have several) for parts to > resurrect the Technics. I can just open things up and have a look, but > if anyone has experience, it could save me some headaches. > > Any thoughts? Have you any Matsushita or Panasonic CD-ROM drives that can be re-assembled easily and are of similar vintage? You might be able to spot a mechanism that "looks right". I did something similar with a Sony CD player and a small pile of Sony CD-ROMs. They were all, fortunately, easy to reassemble, so I didn't end up trashing any drives unnecessarily. Peace... Sridhar From andrew at taswegian.com Sun Nov 4 17:45:07 2007 From: andrew at taswegian.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 10:45:07 +1100 Subject: Datanumerics DL-8A Message-ID: <1194219910.D99E385@fn13.dngr.org> Some images of my Datanumerics DL-8A front-panel machine from the mid/late '70s are available at http://www.taswegian.com/datanumerics.zip Cheers A From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 17:56:29 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:56:29 -0500 Subject: IBM 5251 keyboard In-Reply-To: <140531.79403.qm@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <140531.79403.qm@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Anyone? Please speak up now if you are interested. Real 5251s and their keyboards are just annoying uncommon enough that a number of IBM collectors on this list will probably kill you for every modification you make. Use another keyboard, please. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 17:59:39 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:59:39 -0500 Subject: raised flooring? In-Reply-To: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Hey folks. Does anyone know of any used raised flooring > available, either free or really cheap, preferably in the > southeastern US? I'm only looking for about 800 sq. ft. or so. Nope. And I want some as well, hopefully mid next year. Maybe 2500 square feet. -- Will From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 4 17:01:35 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:01:35 -0400 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <01C81F15.23AD66C0@mandr71> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 17:40:25 -0500 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: modern serial terminal On Nov 4, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I don't understand why someone would want to spend 10x more >>> tima and money on a one-purpose device, when they can get >>> everything they want and more off a cheap PC. > >> Probably for the saem reason that some of us run classic computers in >> preference to PCs... > For me, the reason is simple. Terminal emulators are too damn >much trouble...emulation problems, key mapping, etc. I've used >pretty much all of them over the years, I think...the best one I've >used was SmarTerm 240, and even that is far from perfect. Sometimes >what one really needs is an APPLIANCE...not an emulation of said >appliance built upon an unstable and problematic platform. ---- Well, since this thread is (was) about building your own terminal box, that's not really relevant; if the emulation isn't true that'd be your responsibility. If you're going to program that box correctly you could program the emulator just as well, probably much more easily, and then you could share it with the rest of us who wouldn't have your custom box but do have a "computer." I've certainly written emulators, and it looks like I'm about to write another, for an obscure terminal. What's the difference between programming an EEPROM for your box and a Flash card or USB stick for a box that says IBM or Dell on it? In case you hadn't noticed, computers have been APPLIANCEs for a few years now; to keep thinking of them as 'computers' tends to restrict your vision. To me, the laptop that connects my Cromemco to the Internet, the one that logs phone calls and voice-announces the Caller-Id and the one that monitors the furnace and sends RS-232 data to my desktop are just protocol converters; fun of building aside, none of those applications justified my building dedicated hardware - I just wanted something to do the job quickly and reliably without getting sidetracked with yet another "project." === > Further...A VT320 terminal pulls less than half an ampere at 120V, >and is available for use within about fifteen seconds of >powerup...can anyone say either of those things for a PC running >terminal emulation software? ----- Yes. But to each his (or her) own... m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 4 17:00:07 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:00:07 -0400 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <01C81F15.22886EC0@mandr71> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 21:59:11 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> > >> > I really cannot fathom why people keep suggesting a computer when >> > the OP wanted a *terminal*. >> 4. Ease of Repair. If the hardware dies, worst case you just need >> another run to the local thrift store. With a specialized solution, >> you need to spend several hours repairing it, wait for several >> days for repair parts to be shipped to you, ... >However, if you built it yourself, you presumably know how it works, and >you managed to get all the bits once, so you have a good chance of >gettign them again. >I know which _I'd_ rather repair.. ----------- So do we all ;-) Thanks, Tony; I knew that was coming and I wouldn't have been able to sleep tonight without it. And to return the favour with some grist for _your_ mill, I'd just *replace* it! ;-) m From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 18:05:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:05:45 -0500 Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation In-Reply-To: <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Oh my. I want one of those AED512s *SO* *BADLY* that I can just > taste it. Is anyone going to chase this auction? Not me. Not if you paid me to do so. There is a good chance that this stuff will have to be demilled. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 18:05:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:05:45 -0500 Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation In-Reply-To: <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Oh my. I want one of those AED512s *SO* *BADLY* that I can just > taste it. Is anyone going to chase this auction? Not me. Not if you paid me to do so. There is a good chance that this stuff will have to be demilled. -- Will From shumaker at att.net Sun Nov 4 18:22:44 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 16:22:44 -0800 Subject: more NOVA stuff EPAY 130169584917 In-Reply-To: References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472E6254.3060808@att.net> FWIW there's also some NOVA paper tape based software on EPAY 130169584917 s shumaker William Donzelli wrote: >> Oh my. I want one of those AED512s *SO* *BADLY* that I can just >> taste it. Is anyone going to chase this auction? > > Not me. Not if you paid me to do so. > > There is a good chance that this stuff will have to be demilled. > > -- > Will > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 18:28:28 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:28:28 -0500 Subject: more NOVA stuff EPAY 130169584917 In-Reply-To: <472E6254.3060808@att.net> References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> <472E6254.3060808@att.net> Message-ID: > FWIW there's also some NOVA paper tape based software on EPAY > > 130169584917 ...and do not be surprised to find that needs to be demilled as well... It ain't no joke folks...the EUCs and demill letters are flying... -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 4 18:33:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 16:33:51 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E5058.1000502@gmail.com> References: , <3C8204AB-5348-496F-8B73-8BEF5F503624@neurotica.com>, <472E5058.1000502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <472DF46F.21894.AC2DA99@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2007 at 18:06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Depends on the PC. I have a PC that meets that description. It is > based on a VIA EPIA motherboard and runs PC-DOS. ...and let's not forget the DOS-in-ROM PS/1 model. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 18:44:00 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:44:00 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472DF46F.21894.AC2DA99@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3C8204AB-5348-496F-8B73-8BEF5F503624@neurotica.com> <472E5058.1000502@gmail.com> <472DF46F.21894.AC2DA99@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > ...and let's not forget the DOS-in-ROM PS/1 model. I bet IBM wish they could forget it... -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 4 18:49:07 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:49:07 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net> References: <472B8ED5.9040005@srv.net> <74114c52243bea9bf1e3496b1cf74bf1@neurotica.com> <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net> Message-ID: <472E6883.1070806@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Handy wrote: > I don't understand why someone would want to spend 10x more > tima and money on a one-purpose device, when they can get > everything they want and more off a cheap PC. 1) Size 2) The PC *sucks* at serial I/O. > Note I picked up a used lap/top for a serial terminal for about $125. Now where can I find pro-comm? Ben From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 4 18:54:21 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 16:54:21 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal (thin clients) Message-ID: <472E69BD.4020205@bitsavers.org> >>I can get one of those for $0-10. It's called a DSL modem and even >>comes with wireless networking in addition to USB, serial, and >>10/100BaseT interfaces. > >But no VGA interface for the monitor. : ( Watch for NS Geode thin clients (like Neoware EON). I picked up five of them yesterday for $10 ea mostly to use as firewalls. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320157041439 for example. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 18:56:17 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:56:17 -0500 Subject: IBM 5251 keyboard Message-ID: <001e01c81f46$acb9d210$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> > Anyone? Please speak up now if you are interested. Real 5251s and their keyboards are just annoying uncommon enough that a number of IBM collectors on this list will probably kill you for every modification you make. Use another keyboard, please. -- Will -----REPLY----- Well, I suspected as much when I did some quick google searches and only found them in either computer museums or at parts resellers charging some fairly steep prices. I had a hunch this part deserved a better fate than what I had in store for it. I can do without the death threats though, I did at least *ask* before gutting it. :-) I have nothing against IBM mainframes or their collectors and I can sympathize with their plight as to finding those rare parts. However, I still need a rather mundane parallel ASCII keyboard and am going to either build or buy one. If any of the IBM collectors out there want this keyboard, I will gladly trade it for a like valued item. No, that does not mean those ridiculus prices the IBM parts resellers are asking, just something I need or want like a parallel ASCII keyboard, a 100tpi 5.25" floppy disk drive, or some other S-100 related doodad. Me keeping this keyboard in my basement is not much better than throwing it away. I have zero interest in IBM system 34's or 5251 terminals or whatever these things are really used for. Someone please make a reasonable offer. Thank you. Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 4 19:05:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:05:31 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E6883.1070806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net>, <472E6883.1070806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472DFBDB.30501.ADFD7A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2007 at 17:49, woodelf wrote: > Note I picked up a used lap/top for a serial terminal > for about $125. Now where can I find pro-comm? Simtel used to have a copy of it (and still may) before there was ProComm+. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Nov 4 19:17:40 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:17:40 -0500 Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:05:45 EST." Message-ID: <200711050117.lA51Heu6018305@mwave.heeltoe.com> "William Donzelli" wrote: > >There is a good chance that this stuff will have to be demilled. sorry, but what does that mean? like de-militarized? what does that mean? -brad From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 19:36:33 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 20:36:33 -0500 Subject: Couple of Novas On GovLiquidation In-Reply-To: <200711050117.lA51Heu6018305@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200711050117.lA51Heu6018305@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > sorry, but what does that mean? > > like de-militarized? what does that mean? Generally this means "scrapped" or "destroyed". With documentation, to show that the items were indeed demilled. In the past 15 o 20 years, the government has swung back and forth as far as demilling items is concerned - sometime everything gets thru, other times not - and it seems we are in one of the bad swings. -- Will From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Nov 4 20:01:33 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:01:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: more NOVA stuff EPAY 130169584917 In-Reply-To: References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> <472E6254.3060808@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, William Donzelli wrote: > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:28:28 -0500 > From: William Donzelli > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: more NOVA stuff EPAY 130169584917 > >> FWIW there's also some NOVA paper tape based software on EPAY >> >> 130169584917 > > ...and do not be surprised to find that needs to be demilled as well... > > It ain't no joke folks...the EUCs and demill letters are flying... > > -- > Will > It requires a EUC, lots of goverment surplus does, no biggie, BTDT Gov Liquidation does not sell DEMIL (section E) electronics unless they are labled as scrap (its in their contract) Of course with any Government auction they can change their mind, even on non EUC items... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 4 20:01:38 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 21:01:38 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E2CB6.7080600@philpem.me.uk> References: <472E2CB6.7080600@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <86cd1761d6ae699ae9c0e05cf91d4331@neurotica.com> On Nov 4, 2007, at 3:33 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > CPU: I'd use an ARM or Coldfire CPU - a Philips LPC2000 in External > Memory mode, or a Freescale MCF5307. Give it a bit of external RAM and > Flash, and a CPLD to handle VGA signal generation and supply the glue. > Add some keyboard input logic to said CPLD and flash it with U-Boot > and Linux. Teach Linux how to control the VGA (basically write a > framebuffer driver) and shoehorn a terminal emulator onto it. Bolt on > an EEPROM or cheap RTC chip for configuration storage. Job done. Excellent idea. I've had very similar thoughts myself. > Is it worth it? Not really, IMO. > What would I do? Get a cheap laptop. A 486SX or something. Put Linux > on the hard drive (or shove a cheap CompactFlash card and adapter in > there). Voila, instant portable terminal. Yes, but then you'd have a PC, not a terminal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 20:52:46 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 21:52:46 -0500 Subject: more NOVA stuff EPAY 130169584917 In-Reply-To: References: <523018B1-96B4-4969-AB56-B04898C83944@neurotica.com> <8c0c6433783b8877e190a7a7202a5d42@neurotica.com> <472E6254.3060808@att.net> Message-ID: > Of course with any Government auction they can change their mind, even on non > EUC items... This is the problem. More than a few of the radio guys are getting interesting letters in the mail for things they purchased several years ago... -- Will From devonstopps at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 22:54:43 2007 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 23:54:43 -0500 Subject: CD player repair In-Reply-To: <200711042311.lA4NB0Ar037052@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20071104233902.0214a4a8@pop.gmail.com> It isn't necessarily the motor either; I've seen a couple units that require some kind of "disc present" feedback from the laser diode before they spin....lots of adjustments possible here. I'd start checking power supplies, and putting a scope on the motor drive, might tell you if you're barking up the right tree. As for motors though, I've found slow speed computer CDROM drives can have compatible motors -- if you find one that will mount properly. I got sick of trying to find compatible parts; and so, I've been working on converting a 101-disc cd audio changer for use with data cds and dvds. T.H.x. Devon From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 5 00:00:40 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 00:00:40 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472DFBDB.30501.ADFD7A9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net>, <472E6883.1070806@jetnet.ab.ca> <472DFBDB.30501.ADFD7A9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Nov 2007 at 17:49, woodelf wrote: > > >> Note I picked up a used lap/top for a serial terminal >> for about $125. Now where can I find pro-comm? >> > > Simtel used to have a copy of it (and still may) before there was > ProComm+. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > I used t use ProComm, but I switched to Telix. However, this is probably what you want: http://www.ncat.co.uk/Download/index.htm http://vetusware.com/download/ProComm%20Plus%202.01/?id=3807 Telix: http://www.telix.com/delta/deltacom/tfd/index.html I think the terminal versus PC with emulator app discussion is a general issue. Where does one draw the line? For instance, interfacing an IDE drive to a stock C64 is generally considered OK in the CBM circles, but using an SuperCPU is considered heresy by many. At what point do you draw the line? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 5 00:12:04 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 00:12:04 -0600 Subject: CD player repair References: <5.2.1.1.2.20071104233902.0214a4a8@pop.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007701c81f72$c9e59be0$7701a8c0@JWEST> I'm not upset about it, but I am nontheless failing to see the requisite classic computer relationship. Jay From evan at snarc.net Mon Nov 5 00:24:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:24:00 -0800 Subject: CD player repair Message-ID: <200711050624.lA56O7Pm073598@billy.ezwind.net> But, Jay, rumor has it that your reply was only crafted after getting sloshed tonight at an Irish bar post-VCF. From grant at stockly.com Mon Nov 5 00:29:40 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 21:29:40 -0900 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <86cd1761d6ae699ae9c0e05cf91d4331@neurotica.com> References: <472E2CB6.7080600@philpem.me.uk> <86cd1761d6ae699ae9c0e05cf91d4331@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0JR000GF1SSTT980@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 05:01 PM 11/4/2007, you wrote: >On Nov 4, 2007, at 3:33 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>CPU: I'd use an ARM or Coldfire CPU - a Philips LPC2000 in External >>Memory mode, or a Freescale MCF5307. Give it a bit of external RAM >>and Flash, and a CPLD to handle VGA signal generation and supply >>the glue. Add some keyboard input logic to said CPLD and flash it >>with U-Boot and Linux. Teach Linux how to control the VGA >>(basically write a framebuffer driver) and shoehorn a terminal >>emulator onto it. Bolt on an EEPROM or cheap RTC chip for >>configuration storage. Job done. > > Excellent idea. I've had very similar thoughts myself. > >>Is it worth it? Not really, IMO. >>What would I do? Get a cheap laptop. A 486SX or something. Put >>Linux on the hard drive (or shove a cheap CompactFlash card and >>adapter in there). Voila, instant portable terminal. > > Yes, but then you'd have a PC, not a terminal. I don't see what the difference between the two ideas is. Linux on an ARM is quite a bit more of a PC than a 486SX too... A purpose built linux kernel with only a terminal program is going to boot quick on a 486. From evan at snarc.net Mon Nov 5 00:38:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:38:00 -0800 Subject: VCF X Message-ID: <200711050638.lA56cVE9001662@keith.ezwind.net> ..Sellam really outdid himself this year. VCF X rocked. I'm looking forward to seeing all the pictures, because there sure were a bazillion people taking 'em. From eightbitguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 5 00:41:11 2007 From: eightbitguy at sbcglobal.net (Atsushi Takahashi) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:41:11 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com> References: , <472E1CB2.3040403@srv.net>, <472E6883.1070806@jetnet.ab.ca> <472DFBDB.30501.ADFD7A9@cclist.sydex.com> <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 00:00 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4 Nov 2007 at 17:49, woodelf wrote: > > > > > >> Note I picked up a used lap/top for a serial terminal > >> for about $125. Now where can I find pro-comm? > >> > > > > Simtel used to have a copy of it (and still may) before there was > > ProComm+. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > > > > > I used t use ProComm, but I switched to Telix. > > However, this is probably what you want: > > http://www.ncat.co.uk/Download/index.htm > http://vetusware.com/download/ProComm%20Plus%202.01/?id=3807 > > Telix: > http://www.telix.com/delta/deltacom/tfd/index.html > > > I think the terminal versus PC with emulator app discussion is a general > issue. Where does one draw the line? > > For instance, interfacing an IDE drive to a stock C64 is generally > considered OK in the CBM circles, but using an SuperCPU is considered > heresy by many. At what point do you draw the line? > > Jim > Old PCs and in fact new PCs often drop characters when doing Hex Dumps, for example. The faster the CPU, the fewer dropped characters, obviously... I see the value of using dedicated terminal hardware. Atsushi From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 5 00:43:47 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 00:43:47 -0600 Subject: CD player repair References: <200711050624.lA56O7Pm073598@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <001801c81f77$38d806b0$7701a8c0@JWEST> Evan wrote.. > But, Jay, rumor has it that your reply was only crafted after getting > sloshed tonight at an Irish bar post-VCF. Just because I stood up on the table and sang a rousing chorus of "God Save the Queen" at an Irish pub... what makes you think I was sloshed? ;) J From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 00:58:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:58:05 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2007 at 22:41, Atsushi Takahashi wrote: > Old PCs and in fact new PCs often drop characters when doing Hex Dumps, > for example. The faster the CPU, the fewer dropped characters, > obviously... I see the value of using dedicated terminal hardware. Certainly true if you're using an 8250 UART chip. Replacing it with a 16550 and making sure that your software enables the FIFO can help quite a bit. And there were/are high-performance serial cards with large buffers. Names escape me at the moment, but they were popular with some BBS sysops. One thing that used to hurt a lot with old PCs and graphics cards was the way that software implemented scrolling--by performing block moves on the display buffer contents. Write your own screen handling software to manage the same thing by changing the starting display address instead if the display adapter that you're using doesn't have a scrolling feature. Really, there's no reason that a PC should lag behind a 1980's terminal that used a lowly 4MHz Z80. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Nov 5 01:06:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 23:06:00 -0800 Subject: CD player repair Message-ID: <200711050706.lA576Ubx076494@billy.ezwind.net> Actually you sang, "God save Hewlett-Packard," but were too drunk to know the difference. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 5 02:48:30 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:48:30 +0000 Subject: CD player repair In-Reply-To: <007701c81f72$c9e59be0$7701a8c0@JWEST> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20071104233902.0214a4a8@pop.gmail.com> <007701c81f72$c9e59be0$7701a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <1194252510.4475.7.camel@elric.inet> On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 00:12 -0600, Jay West wrote: > I'm not upset about it, but I am nontheless failing to see the requisite > classic computer relationship. > > Jay >From http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html The general discussion list is appropriate for discussion of the following topics: * classic computer hardware, software, and documentation. We define "classic" as "at least ten years old, plus or minus cool factor"; * computing in general ten or more years ago; and, * fringe topics relevant to the pursuit of the hobby, such as electronics, moving heavy equipment, and cleaning techniques. Sounds like electronics to me. Gordon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 5 03:50:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 09:50:21 +0000 Subject: BASF ST412 drive error codes... Message-ID: <472EE75D.4070202@yahoo.co.uk> I've got a BASF 6185 ST412-interface drive which is spinning up, zeroing the heads, and then giving three short pulses on the LED followed by one long one. Anyone have a reference handy to tell me what that particular error code means? I suspect it's the same on various BASF ST412 drives, so a manual from one of their other models might give the answer too. I'm kicking myself as I found these once a few years ago online and now they seem to have vanished. I had the drive working - briefly - this morning, although it was throwing up too many data errors to actually boot the OS [1] that was on it. Now it's just giving the LED fault code above and not returning anything though, so I suspect something terminal has happened. (And the exact meaning of the fault is probably academic) [1] It's the only copy of Torch UNIX for BBC micros (using a Torch 68000 co-processor) that I'm aware of, and a viable set of install media doesn't seem to exist, unfortunately. cheers Jules From steve at radiorobots.com Mon Nov 5 05:08:15 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 06:08:15 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472EF99F.3040208@radiorobots.com> Nothing "(low)ly" about a Z80. Arguably not a perfect implementation, but a more efficient use of Si than xx86. Its simplicity and memspace encouraged/demanded low-bloat. Less trashware between the commands and the pins. Steve Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 4 Nov 2007 at 22:41, Atsushi Takahashi wrote: > > > >>Old PCs and in fact new PCs often drop characters when doing Hex Dumps, >>for example. The faster the CPU, the fewer dropped characters, >>obviously... I see the value of using dedicated terminal hardware. >> >> > >Certainly true if you're using an 8250 UART chip. Replacing it with >a 16550 and making sure that your software enables the FIFO can help >quite a bit. > >And there were/are high-performance serial cards with large buffers. >Names escape me at the moment, but they were popular with some BBS >sysops. > >One thing that used to hurt a lot with old PCs and graphics cards was >the way that software implemented scrolling--by performing block >moves on the display buffer contents. Write your own screen handling >software to manage the same thing by changing the starting display >address instead if the display adapter that you're using doesn't have >a scrolling feature. > >Really, there's no reason that a PC should lag behind a 1980's >terminal that used a lowly 4MHz Z80. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 5 04:46:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:46:35 +0000 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC Message-ID: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> Eventually I'll be shipping various 8-bit machines to the US, and was thinking of using a PC with a TV card as a display (most of the machines have UK PAL RF outputs, and I could add modulators to the ones that don't). However: - All TV card software I've seen has been utter crap, when it even works at all. - Typically there seems to be no scaling of the picture to fill the PC screen. - There's an obvious quality drop in the RF stages. - I'm warned that the digital tuners in TV cards often have problems locking on to the weaker signal produced by home micros. So... how about hooking straight to the TTL RGB outputs of the vintage machines and somehow sampling lines of data into the PC for display in a window (with appropriate scaling in software as/when necessary so that the image more or less fills the PC display)? Surely someone's homebrewed something like this already? I presume the speeds at which things need to work can be pretty high - but in theory it's just an RGB framegrabber but without all the analogue-type circuitry needed to decode a picture? I'm planning on shipping a few TTL RGB displays to the US, but maintaining them is going to be more difficult than maintaining the machines (and I imagine there are all sorts of pitfalls in taking a US-designed TTL RGB display and trying to use it with a UK-designed micro, as the frequencies involved won't be quite the same) thoughts welcome... Jules From cc at corti-net.de Mon Nov 5 05:40:06 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:40:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: BASF ST412 drive error codes... In-Reply-To: <472EE75D.4070202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <472EE75D.4070202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone have a reference handy to tell me what that particular error code > means? I suspect it's the same on various BASF ST412 drives, so a manual from > one of their other models might give the answer too. I'm kicking myself as I > found these once a few years ago online and now they seem to have vanished. I've found the error code descriptions in the BASF 6188 manual (online e.g. on pc-disk.de): Fault-Codes ----------- The Select-LED is used to flash error-messages in case certain fault conditions should arise. For FAULT code displacement the red colored front panel LED will be lighted. The information is presented in a sequence by switching the select LED off. This means that the dark Phases of the LED are counted to get the error code according to the following table. ERROR-CODES ----------- 1 DC ERROR 2 Motor Speed outside - 10% and Motor stop 3 STEP received while WRITE GATE is active 4 Motor Speed outside 1% 5 REZERO fails after POWER ON 6 Motor does not rotate inspite of MOTOR ON active 7 WRITE FAULT Note In case the unit was not selected by the Controller when an error occurs (Select LED off) the LED will first be switched on and then the above explained sequence takes place. You've said that you have three short pulses followed by one long pulse: ------_-_-_-_-------_-_-_-_----- In your case this would be error code 4. Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 5 06:02:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:02:21 +0000 Subject: BASF ST412 drive error codes... In-Reply-To: References: <472EE75D.4070202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <472F064D.2040407@yahoo.co.uk> Christian Corti wrote: > ... > You've said that you have three short pulses followed by one long pulse: > > ------_-_-_-_-------_-_-_-_----- > > In your case this would be error code 4. Hmm, thanks for that - assuming the error codes are the same for my model of drive, there's at least some chance the data can be salvaged. I wonder if there's too much drag on the spindle bearings - when I first took a look at the drive it needed a little encouragement to spin up at all. (But I'm surprised the motor drive circuits don't just increase speed to compensate - unless they're already driving things as fast as they can) I haven't run the drive much - I'm tempted to leave it to warm up for 30 minutes or so and see if that makes any difference. cheers, Jules From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Mon Nov 5 06:15:43 2007 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:45:43 +1030 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >Eventually I'll be shipping various 8-bit machines to the US, and was >thinking >of using a PC with a TV card as a display (most of the machines have UK >PAL RF >outputs, and I could add modulators to the ones that don't). > >However: > > - All TV card software I've seen has been utter crap, when it even works > at all. > - Typically there seems to be no scaling of the picture to fill the PC > screen. > - There's an obvious quality drop in the RF stages. > - I'm warned that the digital tuners in TV cards often have problems > locking on to the weaker signal produced by home micros. > >So... how about hooking straight to the TTL RGB outputs of the vintage >machines and somehow sampling lines of data into the PC for display in a >window (with appropriate scaling in software as/when necessary so that the >image more or less fills the PC display)? > >Surely someone's homebrewed something like this already? I presume the speeds >at which things need to work can be pretty high - but in theory it's just an >RGB framegrabber but without all the analogue-type circuitry needed to decode >a picture? > >I'm planning on shipping a few TTL RGB displays to the US, but maintaining >them is going to be more difficult than maintaining the machines (and I >imagine there are all sorts of pitfalls in taking a US-designed TTL RGB >display and trying to use it with a UK-designed micro, as the frequencies >involved won't be quite the same) > >thoughts welcome... > >Jules Hi, First, have you tried Linux with tvtime and a boring old analogue BT878 capture card? There will always be quality loss when transmitting over RF so if you don't want that then it's probably best to seek something else. Also does it have to be attached to a PC? You could try adapting the RGB output to a PC VGA monitor directly. >From the minimal research I've done the VGA standard appears to use 1Vp-p RGB signals terminated to a 75 ohm load. So to convert from TTL RGB to VGA it should be something like this (hope you use a fixed font!): O +5v | \ / \ 300R / \ | |\ | Luminance| \ 51R | O-| >----/\/\/\/----o | / | |/ 7405 | | |\ | R/G/B | \ 27R | 0-| >----/\/\/\/----o------------O VGA Out terminated | / | to 75 ohms. |/ \ / 100R 7405 \ (OC non- / inverting) \ | | ----- --- - Whew. Good to brush up on Ohm's law. What this might produce is a voltage of approximately 0.7V when both inputs are high, 0.5V when the Luminance input is low, and about 0.2V when the R/G/B input is low, when terminated into 75 ohms... maybe. If you blow up a nice monitor I assume no responsibility. Also I have not tested this at all :) If you copy this circuit three times for the R, G and B outputs you should be able to wire it up to a VGA monitor. But now we need sync. Do your vintage computers have two lines for sync? One for horizontal and one for vertical? Or is it some sort of combination or even sync-on-green? Cheers, Alexis. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 5 06:49:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:49:09 +0000 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472F1145.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> Hiya, > First, have you tried Linux with tvtime and a boring old analogue BT878 > capture card? I think I've tried three different BT878-based TV cards in Linux - I've only ever got one of them to semi-work (despite them working in Windows - albeit at awful quality and in a tiny little window on the desktop that makes them next to useless anyway). That's against a TV signal too - I've heard from several sources that TV cards have a real problem with the modulators used in typical 8-bit micros (UM1233 etc.) The Linux code for TV cards seems to be something on an undocumented mess :-( It seems like a lot of unnecessary complexity to go TTL->composite->RF and then back to digital again, too. > Also does it have to be attached to a PC? You could try adapting the RGB > output to a PC VGA monitor directly. No, I don't need a PC. I just need *something* in the US that can cope with typical UK-style picture formats (typically 'home' micros in the UK will be designed around PAL signals at 625 lines interlaced I expect, whereas I expect US micros of the 80s were geared more toward NTSC displays of 525 lines) I'm not sure if VGA will cope either - I don't think a typical VGA monitor will sync down to the frequencies involved (i.e. converting TTL to the necessary 'analogue' RGB of VGA is the easy bit :-) Oh, sync lines on the machines I've got are typically composite, so some sort of sync separator would be needed too... This just strikes me as the sort of project that people will have done before, because monitors take up lots of space and because there's not a lot of sense in going from a digital source to analogue and then back to digital again. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 5 09:10:55 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:10:55 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> > On 4 Nov 2007 at 22:41, Atsushi Takahashi wrote:> > > Old PCs and in fact new PCs often drop characters when doing Hex Dumps,> > for example. The faster the CPU, the fewer dropped characters,> > obviously... I see the value of using dedicated terminal hardware.> > Certainly true if you're using an 8250 UART chip. Replacing it with > a 16550 and making sure that your software enables the FIFO can help > quite a bit.> > And there were/are high-performance serial cards with large buffers. > Names escape me at the moment, but they were popular with some BBS > sysops.> > One thing that used to hurt a lot with old PCs and graphics cards was > the way that software implemented scrolling--by performing block > moves on the display buffer contents. Write your own screen handling > software to manage the same thing by changing the starting display > address instead if the display adapter that you're using doesn't have > a scrolling feature.> > Really, there's no reason that a PC should lag behind a 1980's > terminal that used a lowly 4MHz Z80.> > Cheers,> Chuck> Hi I've only had problems of dropping when running a direct serial DOS program while in a windows DOS window. I'm told one can tell windows that that particular serial port doesn't exist but I'm not sure that solves the problem. I've run at 115.2 transfers in DOS without dropping a single character, with a 286 processor. There are a few things. Do not have a disk buffer program running. These can take the computers time at any time it feels it needs to read/write the disk. Keep things simple. Scrolling the screen is a tough one. Instead of letting the BIOS do the scrolling, do it your self a line at a time. Between lines, check for characters in the serial's buffer. Have a reasonable RAM buffer to hold these until you finish scrolling. Doing it this way, one should be able to be fine. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 5 09:27:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:27:49 -0600 Subject: CD player repair References: <5.2.1.1.2.20071104233902.0214a4a8@pop.gmail.com><007701c81f72$c9e59be0$7701a8c0@JWEST> <1194252510.4475.7.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <007c01c81fc0$6d5aaca0$7701a8c0@JWEST> It was written... > Sounds like electronics to me. 1) Not just any discussion of electronics is ok... it's supposed to be discussion of electronics that is directly related to classic computers and repair of same. Are some exceptions made once in a while? Sure. 2) I reserve the right to decide what is and what is not on topic on a case by case basis. The above quoted "rules" are meant to help you decide what is generally ok and what is not. They are not meant to restrict my ability to moderate. Jay From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 10:28:27 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:28:27 -0800 Subject: VCF X In-Reply-To: <200711050638.lA56cVE9001662@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200711050638.lA56cVE9001662@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730711050828n6d9c1d57ta81aae84bcc0a0b3@mail.gmail.com> In Nov 4, 2007 10:38 PM, Evan wrote: > ..Sellam really outdid himself this year. VCF X rocked. I'm looking forward to seeing all the pictures, because there sure were a bazillion people taking 'em. I had a great time, even though I couldn't get to all the talks I wanted to (bilocation still eludes me.) I'm staying another few days in town but I'll have some pics and video up when I get back. -- jht From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 10:52:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:52:09 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472EF99F.3040208@radiorobots.com> References: , <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com>, <472EF99F.3040208@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <472ED9B9.12546.E428475@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 6:08, Steve Stutman wrote: > Nothing "(low)ly" about a Z80. Please, you miss my point, which is that it's not the comm interface on a PC that's the problem; it's the display--and that there are ways to handle it so that it's not a problem. Many PC display controllers have a 6845 sort of video controller with shared access to local memory--and a register in the controller that indicates where within video memory that display is to begin. When the controller reaches the end of video RAM, it simply wraps around to the beginning. Most PC display software doesn't fool with the start address, preferring to scroll by shifting all but one line's worth of bytes in the display by one line. This is a very time-consuming job and usually results in data loss if a steady stream of data with plenty of linefeeds is encountered. Instead of shifting the data, simply change the starting address in the controller register. The only downside is that you must be aware of the starting address--a location on the screen does not have a static mapping to memory. But in the case of terminal software, this is a small price to pay. If a Z80-based terminal has to scroll by using LDIR's to shift lines of characters and screen attributes, it will fall behind too-- regardless of the quality of its silicon implementation. It's more of a problem on chipsets such as the Intel 8275 CRTC, where refresh is accomplished by DMA requests through something like an 8257 DMA controller with common RAM shared by the processor. Unless the designer has included "wraparound" addressing, scrolling becomes a problem. It can be ameliorated somewhat by allocating a large display buffer (2x-3x screen size) and moving the starting DMA address to scroll. When the end of the buffer is about to be reached, one can copy a screen's worth back to the start of the display buffer. This can be spread over the time it takes to fill the final end-of-buffer screen, but, but it's a lot more difficult to manage well. But then, I'd rather perform do-it-yourself root canals than use an 8275 CRC. What a piece of work. Cheers, Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Nov 5 12:13:40 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:13:40 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions Message-ID: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> I recently acquired a Kaypro 4/84 and I'm in the process of cleaning it up and getting it happy. There are a couple of problems with it that maybe someone can shed some light on: * one of the keyboard latches is broken. Anyone know a good substitute and/or workaround? I don't care so much about it, but it'd be nice to be able to lug it into the kitchen and carry something else at the same time :) * They keyboard cable is missing, but I substituted a keyboard cable from a DEC terminal keyboard and it seems to work. The tech manual I found online says that using a phone cord causes dropped characters due to the smaller wire gauge, so I'm hoping that this cable will be sturdy enough. * There is a screw in the 2nd floppy drive opening. I've tried removing the drive sled (via the screws on the bottom), but alas it seems like the drives have to come out of the front individually. The screws are pretty solidly inserted and I cannot get them loose without stripping them. I'm not able to get to the inner ones easily without removing the motherboard and the monitor. Is it possible to take the bezel off of the drive and then slide the cage backward and then out? The drives are the shugart ones. * I'd like to replace the 2nd drive with a 3.5" floppy. I've found a Sony HD drive along with a power and plug converter. Knowing that PCs use a twisted cable scheme, what things should I be aware of when cabling in this new drive? Will it be supported in some manner by the software? Its not a big deal if it turns out to be a 360K 3.5" floppy, as long as its readable by my linux box. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 12:19:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:19:59 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Really, there's no reason that a PC should lag behind a 1980's > terminal that used a lowly 4MHz Z80. With a Z80 you had to write your own OS. There was *No* need for that in the 1980's other than *Pushing* 8080 to 8086 conversion as way to get *quick* software to the market place. > Cheers, > Chuck Thinks the people who invented BASIC with slowed down computer development by centuries. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 12:24:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:24:55 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472F5FF7.8060104@jetnet.ab.ca> woodelf wrote: > Thinks the people who invented BASIC with slowed down computer > development by centuries. has slowed down. No comment on pascal, but it could be the OS used on Star Trek the next generation. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Nov 5 12:40:21 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:40:21 -0500 Subject: VCF X In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711050828n6d9c1d57ta81aae84bcc0a0b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711050638.lA56cVE9001662@keith.ezwind.net> <51ea77730711050828n6d9c1d57ta81aae84bcc0a0b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472F6395.3050207@atarimuseum.com> Pictures, pictures, pictures.... for those of us unlucky enough to barely have time to spare to go to blockbuster to rent out a movie, vs no time to go out to CA and drowl in person, please post pictures...... Curt Jason T wrote: > In Nov 4, 2007 10:38 PM, Evan wrote: > >> ..Sellam really outdid himself this year. VCF X rocked. I'm looking forward to seeing all the pictures, because there sure were a bazillion people taking 'em. >> > > I had a great time, even though I couldn't get to all the talks I > wanted to (bilocation still eludes me.) I'm staying another few days > in town but I'll have some pics and video up when I get back. > > -- > jht > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 12:54:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:54:09 -0700 Subject: VCF X In-Reply-To: <472F6395.3050207@atarimuseum.com> References: <200711050638.lA56cVE9001662@keith.ezwind.net> <51ea77730711050828n6d9c1d57ta81aae84bcc0a0b3@mail.gmail.com> <472F6395.3050207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <472F66D1.8050804@jetnet.ab.ca> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Pictures, pictures, pictures.... for those of us unlucky enough to > barely have time to spare to go to blockbuster to rent out a movie, vs > no time to go out to CA and drowl in person, please post pictures...... > > > Curt I want the movies. Please send the CD and not AOL ones. :) From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Nov 5 12:54:51 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:54:51 -0500 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071105135447.0570fa00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Curt @ Atari Museum may have mentioned these words: >New thing these days, thieves are stealing the krypton headlights out of >cars... Is this so when they get caught by Superman they have a chance of getting away??? Sorry, just had to. Grabbing coat, calling taxi... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 12:55:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:55:17 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com>, <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472EF695.24146.EB33FCE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 11:19, woodelf wrote: > With a Z80 you had to write your own OS. > There was *No* need for that in the 1980's other than *Pushing* > 8080 to 8086 conversion as way to get *quick* software to the market > place. If you're talking about the terminal function in the likes of Procomm, the OS doesn't even enter into things (unless you're a complete idiot about things) outside of, say, logging to disk and keeping dialing directories. Haven't you ever written any OS-less software for a PC that simply boots from a floppy? Given that there's a BIOS in ROM, such things are pretty easy to do if you don't like OS-es. One could easily write a PC terminal program that didn't use DOS or any other OS for that matter. For that matter, one could replace the BIOS with a terminal program and throw away the disks entirely. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 5 12:56:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 13:56:40 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0986BFE7-E047-4EAB-B1E7-527CAA52EC0F@neurotica.com> On Nov 5, 2007, at 1:19 PM, woodelf wrote: > Thinks the people who invented BASIC with slowed down computer > development by centuries. This from the guy who uses Windows? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 13:16:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:16:57 -0800 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <472EFBA9.18231.EC71435@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 13:13, Brian Wheeler wrote: > * one of the keyboard latches is broken. Anyone know a good substitute > and/or workaround? I don't care so much about it, but it'd be nice to > be able to lug it into the kitchen and carry something else at the same > time :) Go to http://www.mcmaster.com and search for "case latches" and "draw latches". You'll likely find something that will be just the ticket. In particular, there's a black polypropylene draw latch on page 2896 that looks to be a close relative to the original. McMaster-Carr is your friend when it comes to finding bits of hardware. Cheers, Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Nov 5 13:25:15 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:25:15 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <472EFBA9.18231.EC71435@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <472EFBA9.18231.EC71435@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1194290715.3251.12.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 11:16 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Nov 2007 at 13:13, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > > * one of the keyboard latches is broken. Anyone know a good substitute > > and/or workaround? I don't care so much about it, but it'd be nice to > > be able to lug it into the kitchen and carry something else at the same > > time :) > > Go to http://www.mcmaster.com and search for "case latches" and > "draw latches". You'll likely find something that will be just the > ticket. In particular, there's a black polypropylene draw latch on > page 2896 that looks to be a close relative to the original. > > McMaster-Carr is your friend when it comes to finding bits of > hardware. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Cool, I'll check it out! Brian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 13:31:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:31:28 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <0986BFE7-E047-4EAB-B1E7-527CAA52EC0F@neurotica.com> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> <0986BFE7-E047-4EAB-B1E7-527CAA52EC0F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472F6F90.5040902@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 5, 2007, at 1:19 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Thinks the people who invented BASIC with slowed down computer >> development by centuries. > > This from the guy who uses Windows? ;) I use it. I have no choice, this machine is bought for PC[1] games. :) I use Mozilla for surfing. > -Dave Grumbles that a real 'bitmapped graphics machine' never hit the home market. The mac[1] came close but they kept changing CPU's so all we have is PC clones. :( [1] The games I like are way off topic [2] 128K of memory realy was too small even in the 1980's. Ben. PS. I like windows/95 over the latest versions of linux ... Too much bloat. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 13:34:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:34:45 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472EF695.24146.EB33FCE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com>, <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> <472EF695.24146.EB33FCE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472F7055.3080201@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Haven't you ever written any OS-less software for a PC that simply > boots from a floppy? Given that there's a BIOS in ROM, such things > are pretty easy to do if you don't like OS-es. One could easily > write a PC terminal program that didn't use DOS or any other OS for > that matter. For that matter, one could replace the BIOS with a > terminal program and throw away the disks entirely. Not really. The BIOS functions SUCK. The whole point of a OS is to do all that. A PDP-8 with OS/8 vs DOS. To me the PDP-8 is more modular. > Cheers, > Chuck > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 13:53:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:53:45 -0700 Subject: ECL In-Reply-To: <0986BFE7-E047-4EAB-B1E7-527CAA52EC0F@neurotica.com> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> <0986BFE7-E047-4EAB-B1E7-527CAA52EC0F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <472F74C9.3070108@jetnet.ab.ca> Looking at ON semiconductor most of the ECL seems to be 'last shipments' phase of stock. Now is the time to check into this for spares. Ben. PS NL7SZ57 looks like a neat new part - multi-function 2 input gate. From steve at radiorobots.com Mon Nov 5 15:12:19 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:12:19 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F6F90.5040902@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472EB188.2030002@jbrain.com>, <1194244871.10132.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <472E4E7D.9288.C229CDE@cclist.sydex.com> <472F5ECF.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> <0986BFE7-E047-4EAB-B1E7-527CAA52EC0F@neurotica.com> <472F6F90.5040902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472F8733.4010408@radiorobots.com> Begs the question: How many ECD Micro-minds are still out there? Steve woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Nov 5, 2007, at 1:19 PM, woodelf wrote: >> >>> Thinks the people who invented BASIC with slowed down computer >>> development by centuries. >> >> >> This from the guy who uses Windows? ;) > > > I use it. I have no choice, this machine is bought for PC[1] games. :) > I use Mozilla for surfing. > >> -Dave > > > Grumbles that a real 'bitmapped graphics machine' never hit the > home market. The mac[1] came close but they kept changing CPU's > so all we have is PC clones. :( > [1] The games I like are way off topic > [2] 128K of memory realy was too small even in the 1980's. > Ben. > PS. I like windows/95 over the latest versions of linux ... Too much > bloat. > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 15:07:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:07:35 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F7055.3080201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472EF695.24146.EB33FCE@cclist.sydex.com>, <472F7055.3080201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472F1597.17983.F2C5CC7@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 12:34, woodelf wrote: > Not really. The BIOS functions SUCK. The whole point of a OS is to > do all that. How so? Particularly how so when using the 32-bit extended BIOS funtions or the INT 15H multitasking extensions? How about the Plug- and-play extensions or ACPI? Even in the bad old big iron days, controllers had their firmware and you were stuck with whatever the firmware writer decided to implement. The BIOS functions aren't all that bad when it comes to implementing something. You get a basic set for getting a simple OS loader going. If you want to use your own drivers after the system is loaded, that's your lookout--the PC architecture doesn't force you to use the BIOS. Even Unix/Linux/OS2/Windoze uses the BIOS to get started. You'd never get most PCI cards off the ground if it weren't for the BIOS. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 15:10:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:10:50 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F6F90.5040902@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <0986BFE7-E047-4EAB-B1E7-527CAA52EC0F@neurotica.com>, <472F6F90.5040902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472F165A.11536.F2F5810@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 12:31, woodelf wrote: > Grumbles that a real 'bitmapped graphics machine' never hit the > home market. The mac[1] came close but they kept changing CPU's > so all we have is PC clones. :( You're going to have to 'splain that one to me, Lucy. There were plenty of bitmapped graphics machines for the home market. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 5 15:17:45 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 21:17:45 +0000 Subject: Troubleshooting Superbrains Message-ID: <1194297465.10134.5.camel@elric.inet> Hello folks, I picked up a couple of Intertec Superbrains last week, and have finally got around to cracking the cases. One has memory problems, the other has keyboard problems. I'm fairly sure the one with memory problems is down to a faulty 4116, but I can't work out how to find out which one it is. I'm guessing it's in the lower part of memory, because although the system boots it hasn't got enough marbles to run DDT.COM - if I could get that working I could prod around in memory until I found the stuck bit. The keyboard problem on the other one is a bit odd - not all the keys work (haven't worked out the pattern but it *seems* like the outer three on the ends of each row work, the middle ones being dead), and the key repeat starts instantly. I'm a tad concerned that this is a sign of a dying keyboard controller chip - I doubt I'll ever find another, although if it was a problem I'd just program up a PIC to do its job. Any thoughts? Is there a way to trick CP/M into loading DDT into higher memory? Gordon From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 5 15:24:29 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:24:29 -0400 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <472E1C90.50702@atarimuseum.com> References: <0e2bd7b785cc376c387368cfbc1fe885@neurotica.com> <472E1C90.50702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200711051624.29797.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 04 November 2007 14:25, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > Saw this on YouTube - nice video from 1982 that discusses Tron and how > movies/TV would change due to Supercomputer based graphics... lots of > great shots of a Cray 1, terminals and other graphic computer devices: > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu5_33uRNzc Neat! I'm wondering what that multi-colored keyboard was that was being used near the beginning of that. And in the segment where they're talking about the Cray, those "memory banks" are presumably big honking disk drives? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 5 15:45:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 21:45:53 +0000 Subject: Troubleshooting Superbrains In-Reply-To: <1194297465.10134.5.camel@elric.inet> References: <1194297465.10134.5.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <472F8F11.7040500@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > The keyboard problem on the other one is a bit odd - not all the keys > work (haven't worked out the pattern but it *seems* like the outer three > on the ends of each row work, the middle ones being dead), and the key > repeat starts instantly. I'm a tad concerned that this is a sign of a > dying keyboard controller chip Give it a good clean out with IPA first; generally I've seen some really strange keyboard behaviour on micros when some of the switches start getting tired and the contacts are dirty. I did have my hands on a (bad) photocopy of the Superbrain schematics, but I'm afraid I really couldn't lay my hands on them for you right now :( One thing I found was that the cases on the machines really don't age well - if you've got ones that are cosmetically nice, look after 'em! From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 5 15:54:34 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:54:34 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 05 November 2007 13:13, Brian Wheeler wrote: > * I'd like to replace the 2nd drive with a 3.5" floppy. I've found a > Sony HD drive along with a power and plug converter. Knowing that PCs > use a twisted cable scheme, what things should I be aware of when > cabling in this new drive? The twist in the cable was to not have to worry about jumper settings which you had to deal with prior to that point. Those drive select jumpers are marked, depending on the brand, either 0-3 or 1-4 on the drive electronics, with the first two choices being the ones commonly used (0 and 1, or 1 and 2). The cable with the twist setup has both drives set to the second choice, so you probably won't need to worry about messing with anything there, selecting the drive should be apparent as Kaypros tend to leave the light on all the time. > Will it be supported in some manner by the software? Hm, kinda doubtful, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a long time since I dove into those particular interface specs. > Its not a big deal if it turns out to be a 360K 3.5" floppy, as long as its > readable by my linux box. That might just be what you end up with. Do tell us when you find out, I'd be curious to know... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 5 15:59:23 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:59:23 -0400 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711051659.23362.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 05 November 2007 07:15, Alexis wrote: > RGB signals terminated to a 75 ohm load. So to convert from TTL RGB to VGA > it should be something like this (hope you use a fixed font!): (Snip) > 7405 \ > (OC non- / > inverting) \ Uh, the 7405 is an inverting gate... Maybe the 7407 would be what you were thinking of? http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/by-generic-number.html -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 5 16:00:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:00:47 -0400 Subject: OT stuff, was Re: CD player repair In-Reply-To: <007c01c81fc0$6d5aaca0$7701a8c0@JWEST> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20071104233902.0214a4a8@pop.gmail.com> <1194252510.4475.7.camel@elric.inet> <007c01c81fc0$6d5aaca0$7701a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <200711051700.47464.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 05 November 2007 10:27, Jay West wrote: > It was written... > > > Sounds like electronics to me. > > 1) Not just any discussion of electronics is ok... it's supposed to be > discussion of electronics that is directly related to classic computers and > repair of same. Are some exceptions made once in a while? Sure. > > 2) I reserve the right to decide what is and what is not on topic on a case > by case basis. The above quoted "rules" are meant to help you decide what > is generally ok and what is not. They are not meant to restrict my ability > to moderate. > > Jay For a list with a lot looser definition of topic, you can go here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/roys-tech-chat/ Things have gotten rather interesting in there at times, for sure. :-) Feel free to stop on by, if you like. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 16:20:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:20:03 -0800 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <472F2693.9664.F6EB548@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 13:13, Brian Wheeler wrote: > * I'd like to replace the 2nd drive with a 3.5" floppy. I've found a > Sony HD drive along with a power and plug converter. Knowing that PCs > use a twisted cable scheme, what things should I be aware of when > cabling in this new drive? Will it be supported in some manner by the > software? Its not a big deal if it turns out to be a 360K 3.5" floppy, > as long as its readable by my linux box. I'd recommend a 2D drive, such as a Teac FD235F that will produce a READY signal. IIRC, I don't remember if the 4 requires it, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. Also, since the 2D drives are "blind" to the HD indicator aperture, you can use HD media without taping over the HD hole. If this is the B: drive, just use a straight cable and make sure the drive select is set to DS1--most drives used in PeeCees are set that way because of the twisted cable. The PRO-8 ROM supported an 80 cylinder format according to my notes. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 16:24:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:24:11 -0800 Subject: Troubleshooting Superbrains In-Reply-To: <472F8F11.7040500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1194297465.10134.5.camel@elric.inet>, <472F8F11.7040500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <472F278B.25539.F727EAE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 21:45, Jules Richardson wrote: > Give it a good clean out with IPA first; That'd be isopropanolol, not Indian Pale Ale, right? ;) Otherwise, it seems a waste of good beer. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 5 16:54:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:54:59 +0000 Subject: Troubleshooting Superbrains In-Reply-To: <472F278B.25539.F727EAE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1194297465.10134.5.camel@elric.inet>, <472F8F11.7040500@yahoo.co.uk> <472F278B.25539.F727EAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472F9F43.2090503@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Nov 2007 at 21:45, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Give it a good clean out with IPA first; > > That'd be isopropanolol, not Indian Pale Ale, right? ;) > > Otherwise, it seems a waste of good beer. I don't know, the bubbles are really good for dislodging the dirt ;) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 5 16:58:02 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:58:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <472E1C90.50702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <107460.63864.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for posting that link. The video will go nicely with an article I have in an issue of 80 Microcomputing about how they made the TRON visuals :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Curt - Atari Museum wrote: Saw this on YouTube - nice video from 1982 that discusses Tron and how movies/TV would change due to Supercomputer based graphics... lots of great shots of a Cray 1, terminals and other graphic computer devices: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu5_33uRNzc Curt From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 17:02:21 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:02:21 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F1597.17983.F2C5CC7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <472EF695.24146.EB33FCE@cclist.sydex.com>, <472F7055.3080201@jetnet.ab.ca> <472F1597.17983.F2C5CC7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472FA0FD.7060509@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > How so? Particularly how so when using the 32-bit extended BIOS > funtions or the INT 15H multitasking extensions? How about the Plug- > and-play extensions or ACPI? How many people even see the BIOS any more? All I know it takes about 2 minutes to boot a modern(ish) PC. :( From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 5 16:47:40 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:47:40 +0000 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472F1145.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> References: <472F1145.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <472F9D8C.5020303@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/11/2007 12:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > No, I don't need a PC. I just need *something* in the US that can cope > with typical UK-style picture formats (typically 'home' micros in the UK > will be designed around PAL signals at 625 lines interlaced I expect, > whereas I expect US micros of the 80s were geared more toward NTSC > displays of 525 lines) > > I'm not sure if VGA will cope either - I don't think a typical VGA > monitor will sync down to the frequencies involved (i.e. converting TTL > to the necessary 'analogue' RGB of VGA is the easy bit :-) It's a pity you didn't ask this yesterday when you were here: I could have shown you my workshop monitor. It's an Acorn AKF53 connected to an ordinary 4-way KVM switch (only the Video part used) to which, in turn, are connected a BBC B's RGB output, a PC's VGA card, an Archimedes, and something else (usually). All work. I can't remember what modes an AKF12 or ADF32 support, but if one of them is similar to my AKF53, that's your choice. If it works for a Beeb, it should work for other machines that have similar RGB outputs. Alexis' idea about the circuit should work too. His surmise about 1V pk-pk for VGA is correct; I've used a similar circuit to do exactly that, and something not too distant to combine all the signals to make composite video (I could have shown you the ISA card for that too, though it only uses the ISA bus to get power). If you need to merge hsync and vsync, a simple XOR gate (1/4 of an LS86, for example) will do well, but often you can get away with just combining them, wire-or style, possibly with a couple of small-signal diodes. Some monitors don't mind the hsync disappearing from the composite signal during the vsync pulse; others prefer it to be present (inverted, if you use an XOR). Have you tried any flat-screen monitors? Some of them are designed to work as TV displays, and will handle horizontal rates in the 15kHz range as well as signals in the VGA (etc) ranges. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 17:11:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:11:45 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F165A.11536.F2F5810@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0986BFE7-E047-4EAB-B1E7-527CAA52EC0F@neurotica.com>, <472F6F90.5040902@jetnet.ab.ca> <472F165A.11536.F2F5810@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472FA331.1010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You're going to have to 'splain that one to me, Lucy. There were > plenty of bitmapped graphics machines for the home market. Name is not lucy. The LISA and MAC I consider BITMAPPED. C64's and others had sprite graphics. Amiga and Atari(sp) were maketed as games machines. The APPLE II split screen I liked for text on the bottom (FAST) , graphics on the top slow. Only the development of fast 2D graphics cards even make modern software usable. > Cheers, > Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 5 17:06:56 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:06:56 +0000 Subject: Troubleshooting Superbrains In-Reply-To: <1194297465.10134.5.camel@elric.inet> References: <1194297465.10134.5.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <472FA210.8060602@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/11/2007 21:17, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I'm fairly sure the one with memory problems is down to a faulty 4116, > but I can't work out how to find out which one it is. I'm guessing it's > in the lower part of memory, because although the system boots it hasn't > got enough marbles to run DDT.COM - if I could get that working I could > prod around in memory until I found the stuck bit. If it's really a stuck bit regardless of address (within the bank), a logic probe might show you, though you might need to make up a really sophisticated circuit with an LS TTL OR gate to only show you the data when the chip select line for the bank you're testing is low. Or use a 'scope and set it to only trigger on the appropriate chip select. I've got a fast Z80 memory test routine I once wrote for a project, which tests every bit for address, stuck-at, coupling, and some pattern faults, which runs from ROM. It tests 8K bytes on a 4MHz Z80 in about 6 seconds unless it finds faults (and then writing the information to the display slows it down). It doesn't need any RAM at all, though it was written to drive a 2-line 16-char LCD display mapped to an address in the target system. You could probably modify it to write to whatever you can use in -- or hung off -- the Superbrain. Give me a shout if you want a source listing. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 5 17:17:38 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:17:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472FA331.1010106@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Nov 5, 7 04:11:45 pm" Message-ID: <200711052317.lA5NHcZ9011126@floodgap.com> > > You're going to have to 'splain that one to me, Lucy. There were > > plenty of bitmapped graphics machines for the home market. > > Name is not lucy. The LISA and MAC I consider BITMAPPED. > C64's and others had sprite graphics. Amiga and Atari(sp) > were maketed as games machines. The APPLE II split screen > I liked for text on the bottom (FAST) , graphics on the top > slow. Only the development of fast 2D graphics cards even > make modern software usable. You have an odd taxonomy here. The Amigas and Atari (STs and otherwise) computers were not marketed strictly as game machines (or else you should include the C64 in that category). And they are most definitely bitmapped. The C64 has sprite graphics, but it definitely has a bitmapped graphics mode. It's somewhat more inconvenient to work in because of its cell- oriented arrangement, but it's bitmapped. So, I'm not sure where you're drawing the line here, but all of the machines you mention have bitmapped graphics and were home computers, except perhaps the Lisa, but only due to cost. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "All-Time High" from "Octopussy" ------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 17:22:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:22:18 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472FA331.1010106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472F165A.11536.F2F5810@cclist.sydex.com>, <472FA331.1010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472F352A.13246.FA7B3C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 16:11, woodelf wrote: > Name is not lucy. The LISA and MAC I consider BITMAPPED. > C64's and others had sprite graphics. Amiga and Atari(sp) > were maketed as games machines. So, Hercules on the PC or even the lowly Amstrad PCW don't count? They look pretty bit-mapped to me. The PCW doesn't even have a character generator ROM--if you get an error during OS load, you have to beep to signal a problem if the character generators aren't loaded. And what about the Atari ST? Looks pretty bit-mapped to me. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 5 17:27:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:27:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071105152553.E18786@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > selecting the drive should be apparent as Kaypros tend to leave the light on > all the time. > > Will it be supported in some manner by the software? > Hm, kinda doubtful, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a long time > since I dove into those particular interface specs. There WERE patches available for using 720K (3.5" or 5.25") drives on Kaypros. "Advent"? MicroCornucopia? Chuck might know. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 17:31:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:31:04 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472FA0FD.7060509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472F1597.17983.F2C5CC7@cclist.sydex.com>, <472FA0FD.7060509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472F3738.22674.FAFBA1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 16:02, woodelf wrote: > How many people even see the BIOS any more? > All I know it takes about 2 minutes to boot a modern(ish) > PC. :( It does? I'm up and running in less than a minute on a P4. But the BIOS has nothing to do with most of that time. Both Windoze and Linux shift into 32-bit protected mode pretty quickly when loading. By that time, the drivers have loaded and the BIOS is out of the picture at that point. What does slow down loading is the need to load drivers after boot, which then go through enumeration and resource mapping all over again. So I don't know why your systems load so slowly. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 5 17:31:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:31:15 +0000 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472F9D8C.5020303@dunnington.plus.com> References: <472F1145.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> <472F9D8C.5020303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <472FA7C3.1070500@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/11/2007 12:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> No, I don't need a PC. I just need *something* in the US that can cope >> with typical UK-style picture formats (typically 'home' micros in the >> UK will be designed around PAL signals at 625 lines interlaced I >> expect, whereas I expect US micros of the 80s were geared more toward >> NTSC displays of 525 lines) >> >> I'm not sure if VGA will cope either - I don't think a typical VGA >> monitor will sync down to the frequencies involved (i.e. converting >> TTL to the necessary 'analogue' RGB of VGA is the easy bit :-) > > It's a pity you didn't ask this yesterday when you were here: I could > have shown you my workshop monitor. Heh - oops :-) I'm thinking that taking monitors overseas with me isn't much of a long-term solution though; they'll fail eventually and patching them up US-side is less than ideal. Having a gadget available that's either readily obtainable within the US or easily buildable seems like a better long-term solution; it's just a question of whether the slight (typical) frequency differences / screen geometries between the two markets are going to cause a problem in finding something that works off the shelf. > Alexis' idea about the circuit should work too. His surmise about 1V > pk-pk for VGA is correct I didn't think many VGA displays would sync down to the frequencies used by the older kit, though? > I've used a similar circuit to do exactly > that, and something not too distant to combine all the signals to make > composite video (I could have shown you the ISA card for that too, > though it only uses the ISA bus to get power). If you need to merge > hsync and vsync, a simple XOR gate (1/4 of an LS86, for example) will do > well, but often you can get away with just combining them, wire-or > style, possibly with a couple of small-signal diodes. Yep, I've done the LS86 'trick' before for combining syncs - but lots of the old kit I have outputs composite sync, and for driving something like VGA I expect I'll need separate syncs. Of course I suspect I can tap into them somewhere within the circuitry of whatever system's hooked up to the display (ISTR that splitting a composite sync signal is a bit complicated, but it's been a while) > Have you tried any flat-screen monitors? Some of them are designed to > work as TV displays, and will handle horizontal rates in the 15kHz range > as well as signals in the VGA (etc) ranges. Hmm, I've not tried that. The 19" Hercules LCD I have might work I suppose (and it's so awful for normal work that it's getting dumped for a good old-fashioned CRT soon as I get my stuff across the pond anyway) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 17:36:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:36:31 -0800 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <20071105152553.E18786@shell.lmi.net> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20071105152553.E18786@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <472F387F.20226.FB4B5D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 15:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Advent"? > MicroCornucopia? > Chuck might know. I think I've already mentioned the Pro-8 ROM, but yup, the Advent TurboROM would also do it (in a format incompatible with the Pro-8, of course...). A check of back issues of MicroC might turn up some other options, but these are the two that come to mind. Thank your lucky stars that you don't have a Robie. --Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 5 17:39:16 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:39:16 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > > So... how about hooking straight to the TTL RGB outputs of the vintage > machines and somehow sampling lines of data into the PC for display in a > window (with appropriate scaling in software as/when necessary so that > the image more or less fills the PC display)? Video capture of 9-pin TTL RGB (such as that used by IBM CGA, Commodore C64, etc.) is something that I have been trying to do for a very long time, without appreciable success. I even tracked down an old scan converter that claimed to convert TTL RGB to NTSC so I could grab it with a capture card turned out to not work (although it's possible the scan converter was broken). I ordered a Video Turtle in 2001 which was supposed to do this same type of conversion but it never worked and the company disappeared before I could get tech support. If anyone comes up with a solution that costs less than $200, I'd love to hear it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Nov 5 17:45:53 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:45:53 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <200711051624.29797.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0e2bd7b785cc376c387368cfbc1fe885@neurotica.com> <472E1C90.50702@atarimuseum.com> <200711051624.29797.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <472FAB31.8070109@atarimuseum.com> Yeah I liked that comment too which showing banks of removable storage units... reminds me of the actual line out of Tron where "Flynn" exclaims "because man, somewhere in one of those 'memories' is the evidence" Memories.... you'd have thought with all of the technical staff they'd have come up with a more proper term that didn't sound so damned clumsy.... Curt Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 04 November 2007 14:25, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > >> Saw this on YouTube - nice video from 1982 that discusses Tron and how >> movies/TV would change due to Supercomputer based graphics... lots of >> great shots of a Cray 1, terminals and other graphic computer devices: >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu5_33uRNzc >> > > Neat! > > I'm wondering what that multi-colored keyboard was that was being used near > the beginning of that. And in the segment where they're talking about the > Cray, those "memory banks" are presumably big honking disk drives? > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 5 17:46:37 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:46:37 -0800 Subject: An old dream come true: Iris Indigo! In-Reply-To: <20071022212033.GE16774@lug-owl.de> References: <471C8880.80005@dunnington.plus.com> <00bc01c814f7$c8515470$f0fea8c0@alpha> <20071022212033.GE16774@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: > > - Can I use a PC mouse/keyboard with that? > > You cannot. You need to use a SGI keyboard and mouse. You can, of > course, access the box via serial console connected to a PC. But keep > in mind that it uses a mini-DIN 7pin connector (somewhat uncommen.) > Also the serial line driver isn't all that well-protected for > electrostatic discharges. I killed one and it was hard to find a new > driver chip... A couple years ago I was able to buy a SGI to PS/2 mouse+keyboard adapter. It would take some digging to find the source. Google is probably a good start. It'll cost you more than the IRIS Indigo did, of course. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 5 17:46:37 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:46:37 -0800 Subject: An old dream come true: Iris Indigo! In-Reply-To: <20071022212033.GE16774@lug-owl.de> References: <471C8880.80005@dunnington.plus.com> <00bc01c814f7$c8515470$f0fea8c0@alpha> <20071022212033.GE16774@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: > > - Can I use a PC mouse/keyboard with that? > > You cannot. You need to use a SGI keyboard and mouse. You can, of > course, access the box via serial console connected to a PC. But keep > in mind that it uses a mini-DIN 7pin connector (somewhat uncommen.) > Also the serial line driver isn't all that well-protected for > electrostatic discharges. I killed one and it was hard to find a new > driver chip... A couple years ago I was able to buy a SGI to PS/2 mouse+keyboard adapter. It would take some digging to find the source. Google is probably a good start. It'll cost you more than the IRIS Indigo did, of course. Eric From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 17:56:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <370864.4068.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> now you know what would be real nice... hows about a way of sampling a video signal somehow and piping onto a USB 2.0 port. 480mbps IIRC, and the fastest dot clocks of old digital cards is around 25mhz, again IIRC. So on paper at least it's feasible. Then you can display it on a laptop screen. Complex no doubt, and then there's the s/w element. Whatever. There was a discussion on a similar note earlier this year. Some had said that certain LCD monitors (TV-monitors?) would sync down to TV frequencies (obviously if it was designed for broadcast signals). If this is so, you'd still need voltage conversion (TTL -> analong). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 5 18:01:53 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:01:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <472FAB31.8070109@atarimuseum.com> References: <0e2bd7b785cc376c387368cfbc1fe885@neurotica.com> <472E1C90.50702@atarimuseum.com> <200711051624.29797.rtellason@verizon.net> <472FAB31.8070109@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah I liked that comment too which showing banks of removable storage > units... reminds me of the actual line out of Tron where "Flynn" > exclaims "because man, somewhere in one of those 'memories' is the > evidence" > > Memories.... you'd have thought with all of the technical staff > they'd have come up with a more proper term that didn't sound so damned > clumsy.... Flynn previously said that he snuck in at night and set up his own private memory file for creating video games. Maybe that was the context. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 5 17:14:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:14:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <3C8204AB-5348-496F-8B73-8BEF5F503624@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 4, 7 05:40:25 pm Message-ID: > For me, the reason is simple. Terminal emulators are too damn > much trouble...emulation problems, key mapping, etc. I've used Tell me aout it !. About 10 years ago I used one particularly bad emulator under Windows which couldn't even get VT100 cursor positioning right.... > pretty much all of them over the years, I think...the best one I've > used was SmarTerm 240, and even that is far from perfect. Sometimes > what one really needs is an APPLIANCE...not an emulation of said > appliance built upon an unstable and problematic platform. I feel the saem way about electronic test gear. I want a 'scope. Not a disguised PC pretending to be a 'scope. Not something running an OS never designed for real-time work that's liable to crash (or worse still do the wrong thing and not warn me about it) if I look at it wrong. > > Further...A VT320 terminal pulls less than half an ampere at 120V, > and is available for use within about fifteen seconds of > powerup...can anyone say either of those things for a PC running > terminal emulation software? An HP100LX (which is PC-compatible-ish) will run for quite a time on a couple of AA cells (I would guess therefore a lot less than 60W!). I am pretty sure I could start up the built-in terminal emulator in well under 15s. [Sorry, couldn't resist. I use the 100LX and 95LX quite a bit as pocket-sized erminals when I'm sorting out serial problems] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 5 17:42:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:42:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CD player repair In-Reply-To: <1194252510.4475.7.camel@elric.inet> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Nov 5, 7 08:48:30 am Message-ID: > The general discussion list is appropriate for discussion of the following topics: > > * classic computer hardware, software, and documentation. We > define "classic" as "at least ten years old, plus or minus cool > factor"; > * computing in general ten or more years ago; and, > * fringe topics relevant to the pursuit of the hobby, such as > electronics, moving heavy equipment, and cleaning techniques. > > Sounds like electronics to me. I've always understood that to mean 'Electronics _as related to old computers_' In other words, asking how SMPSUs work is OK (particularly if you're repairing a PERQ 1 that's just gone bang), asking how to fix AA5s is not. Otherwise, since 'moving heavy equipment' often involves motor vehicles, then discussions of how to fix your car would be on-topic, etc... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 5 17:25:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:25:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CD player repair In-Reply-To: <200711042250.RAA13318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 4, 7 05:43:08 pm Message-ID: > > (I hope this doesn't upset Jay. I think it's on-topic according to the > semi-bogus the ten-year rule, and it's certainly on-topic in the > non-mainstream sense - what I'm trying to do is well outside the norm. > Except, possibly, for populations like the one on this list. :) I wonder what this has to do with classic _computing_, but anyway I guess thrre's at least one microcnotroller in every CD player :-) > > I have a Technics SL-PD8 five-disc CD changer. It's been working fine > for a long time; in recent months, it's had trouble ejecting the tray > (but not, interestingly, retracting it). > > Then a day or two ago it stopped playing discs at all. I can't even > hear the disk spinning up. > > So I opened it up, and I have been completely unable to make the disc > drive motor spin, with or without a CD in place. I've pulled it apart > far enough to have the CD transport mechanism out in the open, and it > still won't spin. (In the process, I found the stretched belt that was > responsible for the weak eject; I dug through my rubber band collection > and replaced it, and now the tray eject works fine.) > > Now, I'm not Tony; I'm not about to rewind the motor or some such. But > I was wondering if anyone knows how similar the mechanism is likely to > be to a cheap computer CD reader - basically, I'm wondering if I can > raid one of my extra CD drives (of which I have several) for parts to > resurrect the Technics. I can just open things up and have a look, but > if anyone has experience, it could save me some headaches. Going the other way, there were certainly a few early external CD-ROM drives that wrre based on CD players. I have an old Philips here, it's a modified Philips CD player, to repair it you need both the service manual for the CD-ROM version _and_ the one for the CD player it was based on. I speak from experience... Of course all audio CD players are single-speed, which means if you want to try to take parts from an CD-ROM drive you should look at one that is a single-speed one. However, I've normally had more success getting parts for audio equipment than computer peripherals. Now to the fault. Every CD player I've worked on has had a simple rule : 'No focus, no spin'. When you insert a disk, or whatever, the following sequence occurss 1) The laser is turned on, and the laser power correctly set (via a feedback photodiode in the laser package) 2) The lens moves up and down a couple of times attempting to focus the laser on the disk. The exact fedback varies depending on the type of laser pickup assembly, Philips (the one I'm most familiar with) is somewhat different to most others. 3) The spindle motor starts. The speed of this is controlled indirectly from the bitstream read off the disk (the data is read into buffer RAM, if this gets too full, the disk slows down, if it is too empty the disk speeds up). Since this couldn't possibly work if the laser pickup was incapale of reading the its from the disk, the disk doesn't start until (1) and (2) are satisfied. So the fault might not be the motor at all. Converserly. I have had CD players using cheap permanent-magnet motors which have failed due to earing trouble or brush/commutator wear. If this is a simple permanent magnet motor (just 2 external connections), try disconnecting it from the rest of the player (desolder the wires if you're not sure) and apply a few volts to the motor terminals. See if it spins then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 5 17:55:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:55:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 5, 7 10:46:35 am Message-ID: > > > Eventually I'll be shipping various 8-bit machines to the US, and was thinking > of using a PC with a TV card as a display (most of the machines have UK PAL RF > outputs, and I could add modulators to the ones that don't). > > However: > > - All TV card software I've seen has been utter crap, when it even works > at all. > - Typically there seems to be no scaling of the picture to fill the PC > screen. > - There's an obvious quality drop in the RF stages. > - I'm warned that the digital tuners in TV cards often have problems > locking on to the weaker signal produced by home micros. I am sure I've seen vido capture devices with USB interfaces on the computer side and a composite or S-video input on the other side. Using one of those would avoid the loss in quility from the modulator and any problems with the TV tuner side of things, but wouldn't be as good as takinmg th RGB signals drectly. > > So... how about hooking straight to the TTL RGB outputs of the vintage > machines and somehow sampling lines of data into the PC for display in a > window (with appropriate scaling in software as/when necessary so that the > image more or less fills the PC display)? > > Surely someone's homebrewed something like this already? I presume the speeds > at which things need to work can be pretty high - but in theory it's just an Most _home_ computers (as opposed to workstations) have a dot clock under 16MHz. Not that high by modern stadnards. > RGB framegrabber but without all the analogue-type circuitry needed to decode > a picture? > > I'm planning on shipping a few TTL RGB displays to the US, but maintaining > them is going to be more difficult than maintaining the machines (and I It shouldn't be that hard... > imagine there are all sorts of pitfalls in taking a US-designed TTL RGB > display and trying to use it with a UK-designed micro, as the frequencies > involved won't be quite the same) The horizontal frequencies are much the same on UK and US TVs (15625Hz .vs. 15770Hz). I doubt there exists a monitor that can lock to one and can't be tweaked to lock to the other. Modifying the vertical deflection circuit is a lot easier in general, sinxe (1) it's a lot slower and (2) it doesn't have other functions, like EHT generation, hung off it. Having done the reverse many times (used US machines with UK monitors) I doubt it'll be much of a prolem. -tony From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 5 18:13:10 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:13:10 -0800 Subject: Alternative Hardware Design for Floppy Interface In-Reply-To: <003401c81509$7e086ef0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <000001c8133f$4fb839c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <471BC4F7.27875.2A9B7BC@cclist.sydex.com> <471CD9C2.8060706@yahoo.co.uk> <003401c81509$7e086ef0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: > So far, most PC desktops still come with a DB25 parallel port, > but I think even that's no longer universal. Just looked at the back of the machine on my desktop... 4x USB 1x IEEE 1394 2x ESATA 1x VGA 1x HDMI 1x 1000bTX + analog and digital audio I/O More audio, USB and IEEE 1394 on the front panel That I didn't need to look for a parallel port before now tells me that most new desktops don't need it, and probably won't ship with it. I can't even remember the last time I saw a printer for sale that had the possibility for parallel I/O. Of course that's no reason not to develop a universal floppy interface with parallel capability... You can just use USB to IEEE 1284 converter for a usb interface. A USB-1284 converter with a 6 foot USB cable costs less than a 6 foot IEEE 1284 cable anyway. Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 5 18:13:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:13:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <370864.4068.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "Nov 5, 7 03:56:39 pm" Message-ID: <200711060013.lA60DmRN012050@floodgap.com> > now you know what would be real nice... > > hows about a way of sampling a video signal somehow > and piping onto a USB 2.0 port. This sounds like a video capture dongle on steroids, frankly. I would be surprised if such a device didn't already exist. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never explain, never apologise. -- John Arbuthnot "Jackie" Fisher ---------- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 18:31:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:31:45 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk>, <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <472F4571.6941.FE746CB@cclist.sydex.com> An old (CGA/MDA/EGA/VGA) monitor will do the trick. Years ago a friend from the UK sent me a bunch of PAL VHS tapes with loads of old British Comedy and other local interest stuff--and a VHS player. I replaced the power transformer in the player and picked up a kit that demodulated PAL to RGB. I still play it back occasionally through my old Mitsubishi Diamondscan Multisync. I've also used an old Sony Multiscan and an early NEC Multisync. None so much as flickered. Parenthetically, through this exercise I did realize how much better PAL was than NTSC. The color balance was always excellent from the tapes, particularly as compared to the way off-the-air NTSC looks. A favorite game of mine was to walk into one of the big box electronics stores such as Circuit City and say to the guy flogging big-screen sets from an acre of glowing boxes, "They all look different. Which one has the correct colors?" Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 5 18:45:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:45:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472F4571.6941.FE746CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk>, <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> <472F4571.6941.FE746CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071105164447.O18786@shell.lmi.net> Would the Adaptec "Gamebridge 1410" do it? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 19:04:36 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:04:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <98728.73229.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > The horizontal frequencies are much the same on UK > and US TVs (15625Hz > .vs. 15770Hz). I doubt there exists a monitor that > can lock to one and > can't be tweaked to lock to the other. Modifying the > vertical deflection > circuit is a lot easier in general, sinxe (1) it's a > lot slower and (2) > it doesn't have other functions, like EHT > generation, hung off it. > > Having done the reverse many times (used US machines > with UK monitors) I > doubt it'll be much of a prolem. It's really that simple? I have some PAL (presumably) units on their way here from OZ. I'd be elated to find out that all I'd need to do is tweak the monitor. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 5 19:05:20 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:05:20 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <200711060013.lA60DmRN012050@floodgap.com> References: <200711060013.lA60DmRN012050@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <472FBDD0.5020608@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> now you know what would be real nice... >> >> hows about a way of sampling a video signal somehow >> and piping onto a USB 2.0 port. > > This sounds like a video capture dongle on steroids, frankly. I would > be surprised if such a device didn't already exist. They *do* exist, as cheap as $30 -- for VGA. Not TTL RGB (most likely due to obvious lack of demand). They don't pipe raw video, though; it's always compressed, usually MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 depending on how expensive and new a device you purchase. This is because reaching maximum USB speeds is rarely achieved on typical (read: poor) chipset implementation of USB on cheap PCs. The video is compressed down to something manageable, like 9mbit/s. This means even a USB 1.x port can take it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From john at guntersville.net Mon Nov 5 19:04:34 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:04:34 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472F1145.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> References: <472F1145.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <472FBDA2.1070503@guntersville.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hiya, > >> First, have you tried Linux with tvtime and a boring old analogue BT878 >> capture card? > > > I think I've tried three different BT878-based TV cards in Linux - I've > only ever got one of them to semi-work (despite them working in Windows > - albeit at awful quality and in a tiny little window on the desktop > that makes them next to useless anyway). That's against a TV signal too > - I've heard from several sources that TV cards have a real problem with > the modulators used in typical 8-bit micros (UM1233 etc.) > > The Linux code for TV cards seems to be something on an undocumented > mess :-( > > It seems like a lot of unnecessary complexity to go TTL->composite->RF > and then back to digital again, too. > >> Also does it have to be attached to a PC? You could try adapting the RGB >> output to a PC VGA monitor directly. > > > No, I don't need a PC. I just need *something* in the US that can cope > with typical UK-style picture formats (typically 'home' micros in the UK > will be designed around PAL signals at 625 lines interlaced I expect, > whereas I expect US micros of the 80s were geared more toward NTSC > displays of 525 lines) > > I'm not sure if VGA will cope either - I don't think a typical VGA > monitor will sync down to the frequencies involved (i.e. converting TTL > to the necessary 'analogue' RGB of VGA is the easy bit :-) > > Oh, sync lines on the machines I've got are typically composite, so some > sort of sync separator would be needed too... > > This just strikes me as the sort of project that people will have done > before, because monitors take up lots of space and because there's not a > lot of sense in going from a digital source to analogue and then back to > digital again. > > cheers > > Jules > > . > What would happen if you used one of the video cards that has the video in/out jacks and setup to input PAL video? Most of those cards have quite a few options as to how they treat the video. I haven't tried it but I would expect it to receive PAL format video input and display a usable picture on the PC screen. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 19:07:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:07:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: sorry OT: anyone own a Fujitsu PenCentra 130? Message-ID: <472700.29072.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> respond offlist please? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 5 19:10:49 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:10:49 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472F4571.6941.FE746CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk>, <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> <472F4571.6941.FE746CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472FBF19.7060605@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Parenthetically, through this exercise I did realize how much better > PAL was than NTSC. The color balance was always excellent from the > tapes, particularly as compared to the way off-the-air NTSC looks. Yes, but the flickering (50Hz) is annoying if you haven't been nursed on NTSC (60Hz). It took me months of viewing PAL (I was mastering a PAL DVD) before I got used to it. Resolution and color are indeed better than NTSC. > A favorite game of mine was to walk into one of the big box > electronics stores such as Circuit City and say to the guy flogging > big-screen sets from an acre of glowing boxes, "They all look > different. Which one has the correct colors?" None of them. Seriously. One of the dirty little secrets of that industry is that the "default" or "standard" settings for color/tint/brightness/contrast/sharpness is that they are calibrated for the store show room, NOT a regular home setting. All the colors are oversaturated, the sharpness is artificially high, etc. Every friend I know who purchases a new TV find me knocking on their door a few days later with my Digital Video Essentials calibration DVD. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 19:43:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:43:34 -0700 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472FBF19.7060605@oldskool.org> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk>, <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> <472F4571.6941.FE746CB@cclist.sydex.com> <472FBF19.7060605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <472FC6C6.3010805@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > None of them. Seriously. One of the dirty little secrets of that > industry is that the "default" or "standard" settings for > color/tint/brightness/contrast/sharpness is that they are calibrated for > the store show room, NOT a regular home setting. All the colors are > oversaturated, the sharpness is artificially high, etc. Every friend I > know who purchases a new TV find me knocking on their door a few days > later with my Digital Video Essentials calibration DVD. I allways turn down Saturation about 20%, the rest I tend to leave the same. I wish TV's had a GAMMA button rather than brightness/contrast. :( Ben From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 19:50:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:50:17 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F352A.13246.FA7B3C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <472F165A.11536.F2F5810@cclist.sydex.com>, <472FA331.1010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <472F352A.13246.FA7B3C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472FC859.4060705@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > And what about the Atari ST? Looks pretty bit-mapped to me. I am talking about machines that boot to a bitmapped display. Most of the rest still used TV scan rates, thus more of a games machine. > Cheers, > Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 20:07:05 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:07:05 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <200711052317.lA5NHcZ9011126@floodgap.com> References: <200711052317.lA5NHcZ9011126@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <472FCC49.7080909@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The C64 has sprite graphics, but it definitely has a bitmapped graphics > mode. It's somewhat more inconvenient to work in because of its cell- > oriented arrangement, but it's bitmapped. I still favor character graphics, but everything in drawn in bitmap today. Weird OS design/display 640x400 --- for a 18 bit machine? layer 1) OS menu - cell graphics. layer 2) Text display - cell graphics. layer 3) Bit mapped display - 512 color - 9 bits? 256 fixed colors? > So, I'm not sure where you're drawing the line here, but all of the machines > you mention have bitmapped graphics and were home computers, except perhaps > the Lisa, but only due to cost. > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 20:55:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:55:44 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472FC859.4060705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <472F352A.13246.FA7B3C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <472FC859.4060705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <472F6730.26078.106B16A1@cclist.sydex.com> > I wrote: > > > And what about the Atari ST? Looks pretty bit-mapped to me. And on 5 Nov 2007 at 18:50, woodelf answered: > I am talking about machines that boot to a bitmapped display. Beg pardon? I'm lost again. The ST had no text mode--it booted to the only display mode it had--graphics. Text characters were drawn by subroutine calls (through a very neat scheme of illegal opcode traps). Right at boot, the ST clears a 32K video buffer. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 21:01:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:01:18 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <472F6730.26078.106B16A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <472F352A.13246.FA7B3C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <472FC859.4060705@jetnet.ab.ca> <472F6730.26078.106B16A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <472FD8FE.9040004@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Beg pardon? I'm lost again. The ST had no text mode--it booted to > the only display mode it had--graphics. Text characters were drawn > by subroutine calls (through a very neat scheme of illegal opcode > traps). Right at boot, the ST clears a 32K video buffer. I never used a ST. > Cheers, > Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 5 22:13:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:13:56 +1300 Subject: Bitmapped vs Text-mode home computers (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <472F6730.26078.106B16A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <472FC859.4060705@jetnet.ab.ca> <472F6730.26078.106B16A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071106041356.GA16803@usap.gov> On Mon, Nov 05, 2007 at 06:55:44PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I wrote: > > > > > And what about the Atari ST? Looks pretty bit-mapped to me. > > And on 5 Nov 2007 at 18:50, woodelf answered: > > > I am talking about machines that boot to a bitmapped display. > > Beg pardon? I'm lost again. The ST had no text mode--it booted to > the only display mode it had--graphics. As did the Amiga (and just because it was centered around NTSC or PAL- friendly frequencies didn't mean that you couldn't drive a VGA monitor with either an add-in video card or built-in circuit (A3000) or install a "workstation" monitor, like the A2024 or Viking Moniterm (1008x1008x2 grayscale). I had a mega-pixel workstation display on my Amiga when PCs came with 640x480. Boy, that was nice for software development. > Text characters were drawn > by subroutine calls (through a very neat scheme of illegal opcode > traps). That sounds like the technique the Mac used for its toolbox calls. > Right at boot, the ST clears a 32K video buffer. And the Amiga does something similar (allocates a set of bitplanes for the workbench - the old default being 640x200x2). As to the charge of "game machine", yes, there were several models of Amiga that were inexpensively made, and marketed to the home game segment (A500, A600...). But also consider that the A3000(T) and A3000/UX and A4000T were sturdily built, did not have a TV-out jack (as the A1000, A500... did), and were priced much higher than the game market. Saying that "the Amiga was just a game machine because of model X" is like saying the PC was just a game machine because of the PCjr. I would consider that after the MC68000 entered the home market, wrapped up as a Mac, an Atari, or an Amiga, the only "home" machine that still booted to text mode was the PC, which they still do. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Nov-2007 at 04:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -26.0 F (-32.2 C) Windchill -52.2 F (-46.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.5 kts Grid 59 Barometer 685.0 mb (10440 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 5 23:21:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 21:21:04 -0800 Subject: Bitmapped vs Text-mode home computers (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <20071106041356.GA16803@usap.gov> References: <472FC859.4060705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <472F6730.26078.106B16A1@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071106041356.GA16803@usap.gov> Message-ID: <472F8940.2004.10F02656@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2007 at 17:13, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would consider that after the MC68000 entered the home market, > wrapped up as a Mac, an Atari, or an Amiga, the only "home" machine > that still booted to text mode was the PC, which they still do. A waste of hardware since the first VGA. The old "backward compatibility" business wherein an application can stuff alpha data into a memory mapped buffer I suspect. Did the IBM PGC emulate text mode in software or did it also use dedicated character-generation hardware? My O&A isn't within handy reach... Low-end home wapro boxes kept using text mode for a very long time after the 68K home systems came out. But maybe that's stretching the notion of "home machine". Cheers, Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 5 23:25:14 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:25:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: CD player repair In-Reply-To: <200711042250.RAA13318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200711042250.RAA13318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2007, der Mouse wrote: > So I opened it up, and I have been completely unable to make the disc > drive motor spin, with or without a CD in place. I've pulled it apart > far enough to have the CD transport mechanism out in the open, and it > still won't spin. (In the process, I found the stretched belt that was > responsible for the weak eject; I dug through my rubber band collection > and replaced it, and now the tray eject works fine.) > > Now, I'm not Tony; I'm not about to rewind the motor or some such. But > I was wondering if anyone knows how similar the mechanism is likely to > be to a cheap computer CD reader - basically, I'm wondering if I can > raid one of my extra CD drives (of which I have several) for parts to > resurrect the Technics. I can just open things up and have a look, but > if anyone has experience, it could save me some headaches. > > Any thoughts? I've repaired a number of their changers over the years. A common fault (and not limited to just this brand) has been the leaf contact switches that detect the open/close positions of the tray and disc positions. If the changer thinks the tray is open, it's not going to spin up the disc. Make sure you check those contacts and any others that detect the disc positions before you get to far along in troubleshooting other things. Any chance your particular changer uses an indexed contact system to detect which disc is present at the reader mechanism? With 5 discs, if something got reinstalled several degrees out of phase that might also confuse the player. As for interchangeable parts, I would expect that the changer would not have the same motor as most cdrom drives. The spindle motors used in most of the changers I've repaired over the years were larger than those you typically see in cdrom drives. If you do have a bad motor, replacements are fairly easy to come by (email me if you have trouble finding one if it does need replacing). From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Nov 5 23:40:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 00:40:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: CD player repair In-Reply-To: References: <200711042250.RAA13318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200711060550.AAA15868@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've repaired a number of their changers over the years. A common > fault (and not limited to just this brand) has been the leaf contact > switches that detect the open/close positions of the tray and disc > positions. If the changer thinks the tray is open, it's not going to > spin up the disc. Not the problem. It does other things that it wouldn't do without being at least prepared to spin up the disc; it lifts the reader mechanism into place and seeks the laser/lens assembly vertically (ie, parallel to the disc spin axis). It's possible that the laser and/or light sensor (phototransistor?) is what's dead, and it's not spinning the motor because it thinks there's no disc present. > Any chance your particular changer uses an indexed contact system to > detect which disc is present at the reader mechanism? No. The tray has holes next to each disc's tray position, in a pattern fairly obviously related to the position number. This also means that the tray position sensor inherently senses the actual tray position, regardless of whether it was reinstalled rotated from how it was when it was removed. > If you do have a bad motor, replacements are fairly easy to come by > (email me if you have trouble finding one if it does need replacing). Thank you; I'm not yet sure it's the motor, but if I am and have trouble, I'll drop you a line. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 6 00:28:20 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:28:20 -0500 Subject: Hans destroys VAX! Message-ID: <040a01c8203e$3b1a7530$f750f945@evan> This was brought to my attention at the VCF X. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP-F7XxrDA For those who don't know him, Han is in the blue shirt and black pants ... his standard uniform. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 6 00:37:59 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:37:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hans destroys VAX! In-Reply-To: <040a01c8203e$3b1a7530$f750f945@evan> References: <040a01c8203e$3b1a7530$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Evan Koblentz wrote: > This was brought to my attention at the VCF X. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP-F7XxrDA > > For those who don't know him, Han is in the blue shirt and black pants > ... his standard uniform. Grrr... -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 6 00:49:34 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:49:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hans destroys VAX! In-Reply-To: <040a01c8203e$3b1a7530$f750f945@evan> References: <040a01c8203e$3b1a7530$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Evan Koblentz wrote: > This was brought to my attention at the VCF X. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP-F7XxrDA > > For those who don't know him, Han is in the blue shirt and black pants > ... his standard uniform. These are a bit more interesting: http://www.youtube.com/user/DouglasHarms -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From grant at stockly.com Tue Nov 6 01:04:47 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:04:47 -0900 Subject: 8" disk drive project Message-ID: <0JR200F8ZP3AT170@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I want to use a QUME 842 or SA800 in an altair disk subsystem. Both seem to have the same interface. The FD400-5x0-5x1 manual seems to show the drives being quite similar. The first thing I see is that there are extra signals. "Trim Erase", "Write Enable", and "Write Data" where the Shugart interface only has "Write Data" and "Write Gate". I assume that gate and enable are the same thing. The FD Pertec drives also have "IN", "OUT", and "STEP" instead of "STEP" and "DIRECTION", but that is not a big deal. That can be generated in software. What I don't see is any input to perform the function of head current. How does the shugart interface handle this? Can I ignore the trim erase feature? How do I generate a write busy signal? I'm willing to make some circuits to fake these signals if required. Thanks, Grant From grant at stockly.com Tue Nov 6 01:50:45 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:50:45 -0900 Subject: 8" disk drive project - maybe 3.5" project too??? In-Reply-To: <0JR200F8ZP3AT170@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR200F8ZP3AT170@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <0JR200FTGR7WT180@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I'm going to add some to my own topic. The questions below still stand, but I've got more info! : ) >I want to use a QUME 842 or SA800 in an altair disk subsystem. > >Both seem to have the same interface. > >The FD400-5x0-5x1 manual seems to show the drives being quite similar. > >The first thing I see is that there are extra signals. > >"Trim Erase", "Write Enable", and "Write Data" where the Shugart >interface only has "Write Data" and "Write Gate". I assume that >gate and enable are the same thing. The FD Pertec drives also have >"IN", "OUT", and "STEP" instead of "STEP" and "DIRECTION", but that >is not a big deal. That can be generated in software. > >What I don't see is any input to perform the function of head >current. How does the shugart interface handle this? > >Can I ignore the trim erase feature? How do I generate a write busy >signal? I'm willing to make some circuits to fake these signals if required. More info: The pinout of an Altair disk drive...of the wires connected. Omitted pins are either not connected, power, or ground. All lettered connections are ground. 6 - Output - Door Open (IDOP 7 - Head Current Switch (IHCS) 8 - External Trim Erase (Option) (IEEN) 9 - Input - Write Enable (IWEN) 10 - Input - Write Data Input (IWDA) 11 - Input - Step In (ISTI) 15 - Input - Step Out (ISTO) 16 - Input - Head Load (IHLD) 17 - Output - Index (IINXP) 18 - Input - Drive Motor On (IDEN) 19 - Track 0 (ITRK0) 20 - Output - Read Data Output (IRDA) One thing that interests me slightly more is the possibility of a regular 3.5" disk connected to the Altair. I don't care about the encoding or format being compatible with a standard controller. It is very similar, but is also a soft sector disk/drive. How close is close? Can I just use a microcontroller with a timer to time from one index to the next and divide it up into 32 sectors? Will this be close enough for the Altair? Anyone know what kinds of errors I would get? A microcontroller running at 16MHz would be able to count between pulses with 16MHz/1 accuracy. With the SA800 I would have a sector hole sensor giving me the correct timing. There still is the issue of the write trim erase feature, whatever that is... Any comments or ideas on the idea? Is it worth trying? I've got a very weird tarbell card that formats and uses 3.5" disks as a 70k mini floppy. I guess anything is possible. : ) 2 - Density Select (/REDWC) 8 - Index (/INDEX) 10 - Motor Enable Drive 0 (/MOTEA) 12 - Drive Select 1 (/DRVSA) 14 - Drive Select 0 (/DRVSB) 16 - Motor Enable Drive 1 (/MOTEB) 18 - Direction Select (/DIR) 20 - Head Step (/STEP) 22 - Write Data (/WDATE) 24 - Floppy Write Enable (/WGATE) 26 - Track 00 (/TRK0) 28 - Write Protect (/WPT) 30 - Read Data (/RDATA) 32 - Head Select (/SIDE1) 34 - Disk Change/Ready (/DISKCHG) I'm not going to sleep a wink tonight. I hate having ideas at 10PM... : ( Grant From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Nov 6 02:06:01 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:06:01 +0000 Subject: CD player repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1194336361.10134.14.camel@elric.inet> On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 23:42 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Otherwise, since 'moving heavy equipment' often involves motor vehicles, > then discussions of how to fix your car would be on-topic, etc... Well, maybe it is. Did you break it moving classic computers? ;-) Gordon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 6 02:15:27 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:15:27 +0000 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <98728.73229.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <98728.73229.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4730229F.8000402@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/11/2007 01:04, Chris M wrote: > --- Tony Duell wrote: >> The horizontal frequencies are much the same on UK >> and US TVs (15625Hz .vs. 15770Hz). > It's really that simple? I have some PAL (presumably) > units on their way here from OZ. I'd be elated to find > out that all I'd need to do is tweak the monitor. Apart from colour, yes. If you're using RGB or composite mono, it's quite likely to just work, possibly with a little verticla and horizontal hold tweaking. If you're using NTSC or PAL composite colour, you'll get monochrome if you use the wrong monitor. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Nov 6 03:41:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:41:47 +1300 Subject: Stats on the first known HP Computer at the South Pole Message-ID: <20071106094147.GA31993@usap.gov> Jay, other HP fans, I finally got a chance to re-examine the article on the wall down here. Someone hung up excerpts from "The Antarctic Journal", December 1976, page 286 (and parts of some presumably nearby pages). The article describes the "first" computer system at the Pole, which might possibly be true. During the 1974/1975 Austral Summer, UC Davis sent down a pair of HP 2100S machines to Pole. They were both equipped with 32K of memory, and sported paper tape, at least one line printer, and a pair of 45 ips, 800 bpi magtapes. Other I/O equipment mentioned in the article include an HP 12930A "universal interface", at least one HP 2570A "coupler controller", and at least one HP 12770A serial interface. If I run across the original journal, I can see about making scans. Right now, there is a hodgepodge of xeroxed page fragments taped to the wall. Before anyone starts drooling, this gear was all long-gone 20 years after it was installed. Even the microVAX that was here 10 years ago was packed up and removed years ago. Closest thing I've seen to a "classic" computer I've seen in use here lately was a Dell 386SX/16 as the head-end for the PBX we tore out in 2004, and the Compaq 386N we used for RTTY (last fired up in 2004 as well). It's all modern, boring stuff here now. :-( (except for the classic goodies I pack in my luggage ;-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Nov-2007 at 09:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -24.5 F (-31.4 C) Windchill -53.8 F (-47.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.8 kts Grid 10 Barometer 684.4 mb (10463 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 6 06:03:39 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 07:03:39 -0500 Subject: 8" disk drive project In-Reply-To: <0JR200F8ZP3AT170@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR200F8ZP3AT170@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <20071106120339.310D3BA4661@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Grant Stockly wrote: > What I don't see is any input to perform the function of head > current. How does the shugart interface handle this? This is usually called TK>43 or TG43 or something like that, assuming you are talking about changing the head current as you step to the inner tracks. Tim. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Tue Nov 6 07:11:05 2007 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 23:41:05 +1030 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <200711051659.23362.rtellason@verizon.net> References: Message-ID: >Uh, the 7405 is an inverting gate... > >Maybe the 7407 would be what you were thinking of? Oops. Sorry, I tried remembering the number off the top of my head. It should be 7407. Thanks, Alexis. From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Nov 6 07:12:14 2007 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:12:14 +0100 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <3C8204AB-5348-496F-8B73-8BEF5F503624@neurotica.com> References: <3C8204AB-5348-496F-8B73-8BEF5F503624@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20071106131212.GA5321@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 05:40:25PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 4, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>I don't understand why someone would want to spend 10x more > >>tima and money on a one-purpose device, when they can get > >>everything they want and more off a cheap PC. > > > >Probably for the saem reason that some of us run classic computers in > >preference to PCs... > > For me, the reason is simple. Terminal emulators are too damn > much trouble...emulation problems, key mapping, etc. I've used > pretty much all of them over the years, I think...the best one I've > used was SmarTerm 240, and even that is far from perfect. Sometimes > what one really needs is an APPLIANCE...not an emulation of said > appliance built upon an unstable and problematic platform. > > Further...A VT320 terminal pulls less than half an ampere at 120V, 60 Watts? That is _easy_ to beat with current hardware. > and is available for use within about fifteen seconds of > powerup...can anyone say either of those things for a PC running > terminal emulation software? Yes. If all you want/need is terminal emulation, grab an not too recent laptop. My Thinkpad T43p here (admittedly quite new) drops down below 18 watts of power consumption for doing stuff like reading documentation (i.e. close to no load on the system). It does take longer to boot - about 50 seconds from power button press to the login screen, but that is because - the BIOS alone takes more than 30 seconds for POST alone - it is setup with a current Linux distribution that boots up to full graphical login screen The system load time (time spent between boot loader coming and being able to log in) could be cut down significantly by striping down the system just to what's needed for the job. Wen once dropped system load time for a small Linux server down to about 4 seconds by replacing the init system with two small shell scripts that didn't do much ;-) Get an older 486 class laptop, that probably boots faster (less integrated hardware to initialize, less memory to count ...) and uses even less power. It will also be much more easy to carry around than a VT320 ;-) Or get an HP200LX: - lives almost forever on two AA cells - instant on - reboots within a few seconds (rarely needed) - integrated terminal program (not that good, but I found it sufficient for most purposes) - small small handheld with clamshell formfactor and keyboard - can be carried around in your jacket pocket - does full 80x25 text display - disadvantage: text on the display may be hard to read (due to size) for those with less than eagle-perfect eyes Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 6 08:46:00 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 06:46:00 -0800 Subject: Hans destroys VAX! In-Reply-To: References: <040a01c8203e$3b1a7530$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: At 10:37 PM -0800 11/5/07, David Griffith wrote: >On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> This was brought to my attention at the VCF X. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP-F7XxrDA >> >> For those who don't know him, Han is in the blue shirt and black pants >> ... his standard uniform. > >Grrr... I'll second that! The BA123 looked to be in very good shape compared to what I've found around here over the years. :^( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Nov 6 09:02:12 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:02:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <472FAB31.8070109@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > > Yeah I liked that comment too which showing banks of removable storage > units... reminds me of the actual line out of Tron where "Flynn" > exclaims "because man, somewhere in one of those 'memories' is the > evidence" > > Memories.... you'd have thought with all of the technical staff > they'd have come up with a more proper term that didn't sound so damned > clumsy.... > Maybe they were trying to connect it with human memories, since the programs within the TRON universe had a life of their own? With all of thie TRON talk, I just happened to have watched TRON again on Friday, then WarGames. On Saturday I watched Terminator 3. All three movies seem to have similar storylines... The first two movies have a mainframe as the big bad computer while the third uses that idea as a red herring. Cheers, Bryan > > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Sunday 04 November 2007 14:25, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > > > >> Saw this on YouTube - nice video from 1982 that discusses Tron and how > >> movies/TV would change due to Supercomputer based graphics... lots of > >> great shots of a Cray 1, terminals and other graphic computer devices: > >> > >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu5_33uRNzc > >> > > > > Neat! > > > > I'm wondering what that multi-colored keyboard was that was being used near > > the beginning of that. And in the segment where they're talking about the > > Cray, those "memory banks" are presumably big honking disk drives? > > > > > From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 09:27:14 2007 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:27:14 -0400 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> References: <472FAB31.8070109@atarimuseum.com> <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550711060727j64efd4davd0d95d6737adb417@mail.gmail.com> Which came first: Tron, or Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan? I remember the star trek movie had a snippet of CG for the creation of the Genesis planet. I think both were from 1982, but not sure. Joe On 11/6/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > > > > Yeah I liked that comment too which showing banks of removable storage > > units... reminds me of the actual line out of Tron where "Flynn" > > exclaims "because man, somewhere in one of those 'memories' is the > > evidence" > > > > Memories.... you'd have thought with all of the technical staff > > they'd have come up with a more proper term that didn't sound so damned > > clumsy.... > > > > Maybe they were trying to connect it with human memories, since the > programs within the TRON universe had a life of their own? > > With all of thie TRON talk, I just happened to have watched TRON > again on Friday, then WarGames. On Saturday I watched Terminator 3. > All three movies seem to have similar storylines... > > The first two movies have a mainframe as the big bad computer while > the third uses that idea as a red herring. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > > > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > On Sunday 04 November 2007 14:25, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > > > > > >> Saw this on YouTube - nice video from 1982 that discusses Tron and > how > > >> movies/TV would change due to Supercomputer based graphics... lots > of > > >> great shots of a Cray 1, terminals and other graphic computer > devices: > > >> > > >> > > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu5_33uRNzc > > >> > > > > > > Neat! > > > > > > I'm wondering what that multi-colored keyboard was that was being used > near > > > the beginning of that. And in the segment where they're talking about > the > > > Cray, those "memory banks" are presumably big honking disk drives? > > > > > > > > > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Nov 6 09:34:23 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:34:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550711060727j64efd4davd0d95d6737adb417@mail.gmail.com> References: <472FAB31.8070109@atarimuseum.com> <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> <2b1f1f550711060727j64efd4davd0d95d6737adb417@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/6/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > > With all of this TRON talk, I just happened to have watched TRON > again on Friday, then WarGames. On Saturday I watched Terminator 3. > All three movies seem to have similar storylines... I was working on the Air Defense computer systems at McChord AFB when WarGames came out. While I was giving tours of the computer room, someone would invariably ask "Could that really happen?" "No, it doesn't work that way!" Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 6 09:41:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:41:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550711060727j64efd4davd0d95d6737adb417@mail.gmail.com> from Joe Giliberti at "Nov 6, 7 11:27:14 am" Message-ID: <200711061541.lA6Ffq6U016956@floodgap.com> > Which came first: Tron, or Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan? I remember the star > trek movie had a snippet of CG for the creation of the Genesis planet. I > think both were from 1982, but not sure. They were both 1982. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. ------------- From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Nov 6 09:48:15 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:48:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <200711061541.lA6Ffq6U016956@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20071106154815.7125D567F2@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Cameron Kaiser > > > Which came first: Tron, or Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan? I remember the star > > trek movie had a snippet of CG for the creation of the Genesis planet. I > > think both were from 1982, but not sure. > > They were both 1982. > According to IMDB, Wrath of Kahn came out on June 4th, while TRON came out July 9th. Cheers, Bryan From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 6 10:43:47 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:43:47 -0500 Subject: Hans destroys VAX! In-Reply-To: References: <040a01c8203e$3b1a7530$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <473099C3.8050703@atarimuseum.com> arrgh!!! Hans! We will now have to put you on the Vax terrorist watchlist for crimes against vintage computers. Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:37 PM -0800 11/5/07, David Griffith wrote: >> On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> This was brought to my attention at the VCF X. >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP-F7XxrDA >>> >>> For those who don't know him, Han is in the blue shirt and black pants >>> ... his standard uniform. >> >> Grrr... > > I'll second that! The BA123 looked to be in very good shape compared > to what I've found around here over the years. :^( > > Zane > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 6 10:44:28 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:44:28 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <473099EC.8040805@atarimuseum.com> You wanna watch a truly evil computer - watch Demon Seed. Curt Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > >> Yeah I liked that comment too which showing banks of removable storage >> units... reminds me of the actual line out of Tron where "Flynn" >> exclaims "because man, somewhere in one of those 'memories' is the >> evidence" >> >> Memories.... you'd have thought with all of the technical staff >> they'd have come up with a more proper term that didn't sound so damned >> clumsy.... >> >> > > Maybe they were trying to connect it with human memories, since the > programs within the TRON universe had a life of their own? > > With all of thie TRON talk, I just happened to have watched TRON > again on Friday, then WarGames. On Saturday I watched Terminator 3. > All three movies seem to have similar storylines... > > The first two movies have a mainframe as the big bad computer while > the third uses that idea as a red herring. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> >>> On Sunday 04 November 2007 14:25, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Saw this on YouTube - nice video from 1982 that discusses Tron and how >>>> movies/TV would change due to Supercomputer based graphics... lots of >>>> great shots of a Cray 1, terminals and other graphic computer devices: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu5_33uRNzc >>>> >>>> >>> Neat! >>> >>> I'm wondering what that multi-colored keyboard was that was being used near >>> the beginning of that. And in the segment where they're talking about the >>> Cray, those "memory banks" are presumably big honking disk drives? >>> >>> >>> > > > From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 6 10:57:01 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:57:01 -0500 Subject: Hans destroys VAX! In-Reply-To: <473099C3.8050703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <003f01c82096$0e8ffdc0$f750f945@evan> I bet it seemed like a really good idea at the time. -----Original Message----- From: Curt @ Atari Museum [mailto:curt at atarimuseum.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 11:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Hans destroys VAX! arrgh!!! Hans! We will now have to put you on the Vax terrorist watchlist for crimes against vintage computers. Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:37 PM -0800 11/5/07, David Griffith wrote: >> On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> This was brought to my attention at the VCF X. >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP-F7XxrDA >>> >>> For those who don't know him, Han is in the blue shirt and black >>> pants ... his standard uniform. >> >> Grrr... > > I'll second that! The BA123 looked to be in very good shape compared > to what I've found around here over the years. :^( > > Zane > > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 6 11:07:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:07:09 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:44:28 -0500. <473099EC.8040805@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <473099EC.8040805 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > You wanna watch a truly evil computer - watch Demon Seed. ...or Colossus: The Forbin Project -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 6 11:38:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:38:56 -0800 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <47303630.30607.2D3913@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2007 at 10:07, Richard wrote: >> > You wanna watch a truly evil computer - watch Demon Seed. > > ...or Colossus: The Forbin Project Nope. The most evil computer was the one on "Turn On". I witnessed the one and only episode back in 1969. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 6 11:58:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:58:29 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <47303630.30607.2D3913@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <47303630.30607.2D3913@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Nope. The most evil computer was the one on "Turn On". I witnessed > the one and only episode back in 1969. What about HAL 9000? Dr Who had a evil computer I think in the mid 70's. Strange how we belived a computer could have real AI with a few moving tape drives, a blinking console and a computer voice. Ben. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 6 12:19:39 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:19:39 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: >, <47303630.30607.2D3913@cclist.sydex.com> <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4730B03B.1020104@atarimuseum.com> Hal.... well he was just confused and misunderstood... He needed a hug! ;-) Maybe a time out too... Curt woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Nope. The most evil computer was the one on "Turn On". I witnessed >> the one and only episode back in 1969. > What about HAL 9000? > Dr Who had a evil computer I think in the mid 70's. > Strange how we belived a computer could have real AI with a few moving > tape drives, a blinking console and a computer voice. > Ben. > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 6 12:23:16 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:23:16 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:58:29 -0700. <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <4730AB45.8060601 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Dr Who had a evil computer I think in the mid 70's. I believe you're thinking of the episode "Face of Evil", which introduced Leela as the Doctor's companion. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 6 12:44:21 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:44:21 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4730B605.2070509@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > In article <4730AB45.8060601 at jetnet.ab.ca>, > woodelf writes: > I believe you're thinking of the episode "Face of Evil", which > introduced Leela as the Doctor's companion. No it was the one with the giant flies and the 3rd Dr. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Nov 6 12:46:48 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:46:48 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730B03B.1020104@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hal.... well he was just confused and misunderstood... > > He needed a hug! ;-) Maybe a time out too... > One I haven't seen mentioned so far... The truly evil... Uniblab from The Jetsons No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1112 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 7:11 PM From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 6 12:55:35 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:55:35 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4730B8A7.1090007@atarimuseum.com> Ah --- How about Maximillion from Disney's The Black Hole ? Curt Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > > >> Hal.... well he was just confused and misunderstood... >> >> He needed a hug! ;-) Maybe a time out too... >> >> > > One I haven't seen mentioned so far... The truly evil... > > Uniblab from The Jetsons > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1112 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 > 7:11 PM > > > From ray at arachelian.com Tue Nov 6 13:03:25 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:03:25 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4730BA7D.5080207@arachelian.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > > With all of thie TRON talk, I just happened to have watched TRON > again on Friday, then WarGames. On Saturday I watched Terminator 3. > All three movies seem to have similar storylines... > There was also a TV series called The Whiz Kids that I can't recall too much about back from the 80's that featured a TRS-80, I think. :-) Too bad it's not available on DVD. Don't forget Colossus - The Forbin Project, which was named after, but had nothing to do with, the Tunny cracking computer at Bletchley Park. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 6 13:23:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:23:35 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730BA7D.5080207@arachelian.com> References: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> <4730BA7D.5080207@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4730BF37.3050909@jetnet.ab.ca> Ray Arachelian wrote: > There was also a TV series called The Whiz Kids that I can't recall too > much about back from the 80's that featured a TRS-80, I think. :-) Too > bad it's not available on DVD. A few coments about Japanese animation. While not a evil computer, Serial experiments Lain had a TRS-800. ( A future mac/internet clone). You have few Mad or Evil computers around but for the most part Japanese si-fi does not have many computers. Cute female mechanical dolls/robots but few computers -- that is a US thing. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 6 13:34:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:34:33 -0800 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47305149.14986.97128E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2007 at 10:58, woodelf wrote: > What about HAL 9000? > Dr Who had a evil computer I think in the mid 70's. > Strange how we belived a computer could have real AI with a few moving > tape drives, a blinking console and a computer voice. Is there such a thing as AI (I mean, outside of political circles)? Has there been constructed any set of hardware or software that can pass the Turing test 100% of the time? Will there ever be one? I recall that when 2001 came out, it was stated by several AI specialists that we were perhaps 20 years away from a real HAL 9000. Is AI the cybernetic equivalent of controlled atomic fusion? I didn't find the Forbin project particularly threatening. After all, what could be threatening about a bunch of CDC 3000-series "green glass" panels and what looked to be the blinkenlights console of an IBM 1710? The Colossus console looked more like an arcade game than anything. What is surprising is the prevalence of CRT-based displays in these old movies that purport to project "the future". A technological blind spot the size of Texas. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 6 14:03:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:03:35 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <47305149.14986.97128E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> <47305149.14986.97128E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4730C897.8030701@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is there such a thing as AI (I mean, outside of political circles)? Well don't get the LISP people mad at you. :) > Has there been constructed any set of hardware or software that can > pass the Turing test 100% of the time? Will there ever be one? I > recall that when 2001 came out, it was stated by several AI > specialists that we were perhaps 20 years away from a real HAL 9000. > Is AI the cybernetic equivalent of controlled atomic fusion? I say fuzzy encode a dictionary, add some voice hardware and vision and poof you got a brain. :) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 6 14:13:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:13:15 -0800 Subject: 8" disk drive project - maybe 3.5" project too??? In-Reply-To: <0JR200FTGR7WT180@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR200F8ZP3AT170@msgmmp-1.gci.net>, <0JR200FTGR7WT180@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <47305A5B.5168.BA841C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2007 at 22:50, Grant Stockly wrote: I happen to have a copy of the manual for Don Tarbell's first floppy controller for S-100 machines. While not particularly interesting from the controller standpoint, there is a fair amount of "I've got this drive; how can I make it work with your controller?" information. And--ta-da--one of the drives mentioned is the Pertec FD400. What follows is what one would need to do to connect an Altair drive to a Tarbell controller that's been hooked to the 37-pin Altair case connector. So the pin numbering given here is of the 37-pin connector, not the Pertec drive connector. My commentary is added. Understand that this is sort of "inside out", but should give you a good idea of what's what--and the Tarbell controller is documented to a fare-thee-well. Here's what Don's got (again, note that the pins are the DC-37 pin numbers). Pin 5 - Write Data; same as 842 WD Pin 4,3 Write gate and Trim Erase; tie together and interpret as WG Pin 2, Current select; same as 842 TG43/RWC Pin 9, Index; same as 842 INDEX Pin 1, Ready; same as 842 READY Pin 13, Enable; tie to GND so drive is always enabled Pins 6 and 7, Step In and Step Out. You'll need a little glue to generate STEP and DIRECTION pulses from these. You may want to add a little delay to make sure that DIRECTION is asserted slightly before STEP--check the 842 docs on this one. Pins 15 and 14, Drive Select 0 and 1; same as 842 DS0 and DS1 Pin 8, Head Load, same as 842 HLD Pins 16 and 17, DA-C and DA-D; tied to ground Pin 18, NEXT DE - tied to ground Pin 10, Track Zero - Same as TK00 on 842 Pin 11, Raw Data; same as RDATA on 842 I don't know if this is terribly helpful, but it's a starting point. Cheers, Chuck > > One thing that interests me slightly more is the possibility of a > regular 3.5" disk connected to the Altair. I don't care about the > encoding or format being compatible with a standard controller. > > It is very similar, but is also a soft sector disk/drive. How close > is close? Can I just use a microcontroller with a timer to time from > one index to the next and divide it up into 32 sectors? Will this be > close enough for the Altair? Anyone know what kinds of errors I > would get? A microcontroller running at 16MHz would be able to count > between pulses with 16MHz/1 accuracy. With the SA800 I would have a > sector hole sensor giving me the correct timing. > > There still is the issue of the write trim erase feature, whatever that is... > > Any comments or ideas on the idea? Is it worth trying? I've got a > very weird tarbell card that formats and uses 3.5" disks as a 70k > mini floppy. I guess anything is possible. : ) > > 2 - Density Select (/REDWC) > 8 - Index (/INDEX) > 10 - Motor Enable Drive 0 (/MOTEA) > 12 - Drive Select 1 (/DRVSA) > 14 - Drive Select 0 (/DRVSB) > 16 - Motor Enable Drive 1 (/MOTEB) > 18 - Direction Select (/DIR) > 20 - Head Step (/STEP) > 22 - Write Data (/WDATE) > 24 - Floppy Write Enable (/WGATE) > 26 - Track 00 (/TRK0) > 28 - Write Protect (/WPT) > 30 - Read Data (/RDATA) > 32 - Head Select (/SIDE1) > 34 - Disk Change/Ready (/DISKCHG) > > I'm not going to sleep a wink tonight. I hate having ideas at 10PM... : ( > > Grant > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 6 14:13:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:13:14 -0600 Subject: Stats on the first known HP Computer at the South Pole In-Reply-To: <20071106094147.GA31993@usap.gov> References: <20071106094147.GA31993@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4730CADA.3030605@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Even the microVAX that was here 10 years ago was packed > up and removed years ago. I hate to sound like someone who is against the environment, but why bother packing it up and removing it at all? I mean, come on, it's the North Pole. Wouldn't it be easier, faster, and cheaper to just dump it half a mile from the site? It's the North Pole -- what could happen? (Or would that affect the experiment?) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 6 14:14:16 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:14:16 -0600 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550711060727j64efd4davd0d95d6737adb417@mail.gmail.com> References: <472FAB31.8070109@atarimuseum.com> <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> <2b1f1f550711060727j64efd4davd0d95d6737adb417@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4730CB18.3070008@oldskool.org> Joe Giliberti wrote: > Which came first: Tron, or Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan? I remember the star > trek movie had a snippet of CG for the creation of the Genesis planet. I > think both were from 1982, but not sure. Khan was first, and it's planet sequence was the largest computer-rendered sequence of its time in movies until Tron. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 6 14:19:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:19:59 -0600 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730B8A7.1090007@atarimuseum.com> References: <4730B8A7.1090007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4730CC6F.3070303@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Ah --- How about Maximillion from Disney's The Black Hole ? A source of nightmares for my 10-yr-old self. But I was always partial to the Mark 13 from the movie Hardware. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 6 14:21:54 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 20:21:54 -0000 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... References: Message-ID: <002e01c820b2$ac3bd910$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....On Saturday I watched Terminator 3.... My utmost condolences. That's a couple of hours of your life which you'll never get back.... TTFN - Pete. From grant at stockly.com Tue Nov 6 14:32:34 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:32:34 -0900 Subject: 8" disk drive project - maybe 3.5" project too??? In-Reply-To: <0JR300F1JBZNMX12@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR300F1JBZNMX12@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JR300553QHMZT60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >Write trim erase is a signal to the head assembly (driver) that turns on >the erase segment of the head for erasing the area either side of the head. >It's also called tunnel erase. This gives some tolerence to off track reading >as the intertrack gaps are "clean". Tunnel erase is still part of all >floppy drives but is activated by Write-enable and you never "hear" of it. > >In 1976 all this was new and magical until Sugart came out with the much >simplified 5.25 SA400. From reading the information on the Internet I have pretty much guessed that much, that it was done automatically on new drives. > >Any comments or ideas on the idea? Is it worth trying? I've got a > >very weird tarbell card that formats and uses 3.5" disks as a 70k > >mini floppy. I guess anything is possible. : ) > >Myself I'd persue something using a 5.25 or 3.5" drive with a current >softsector interface to the drive and enough CPU smarts to fake looking >like the Altair interface which was dumb as a rock and depended on the >8080 to do most everything. That is what I was thinking about too. I was thinking about a controller that hot wired into the existing drive card set. Drive 1 would activate the fake 3.5" disk or flash memory and drive 0 would activate the 8" drive for example. That would allow for easy migration from 8" to a different format. It would also be nice to have a media readable on a PC. A 3.5" disk with the fake hard sector formatting wouldn't be possible... What do you think about drive RPM? Should I be able to fake the 32 hard sectors at any rate I want as long as its as fast or slower than the 8" drive? The 3.5" disk should be writing the bits at whatever bit rate is requested, right? The only reason I want to do the 3.5" disk interface with faking 32 hard sectors is because it would be a fast way to get going. Hardly any hardware development required. Thanks! Grant From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 6 14:36:48 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:36:48 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730CC6F.3070303@oldskool.org> References: <4730B8A7.1090007@atarimuseum.com> <4730CC6F.3070303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4730D060.3060501@atarimuseum.com> Mark 13? Hmmmm, oh yeah! the Daystrom's M5 computer from Star Trek TOS, now there were evil computer - don't get in its way when it needs to plug in more power.... and also "Nomad" the evil space probe from Star Trek TOS Lots of evil technology out there... and this all predates Microsoft! ;-) Curt Jim Leonard wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Ah --- How about Maximillion from Disney's The Black Hole ? > > A source of nightmares for my 10-yr-old self. But I was always > partial to the Mark 13 from the movie Hardware. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Nov 6 14:39:03 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:39:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <002e01c820b2$ac3bd910$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20071106203903.F168016291@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Ensor > > Hi, > > >....On Saturday I watched Terminator 3.... > > My utmost condolences. > > That's a couple of hours of your life which you'll never get back.... > Then I probably should not say that I actually like the movie, have watched it more then once and that I also own it... :) Cheers, Bryan P.S. I am also one of the few who thought "Last Action Hero" was not as bad as everybody said it was.. IMHO, it was a great spoof of action movies. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 6 14:40:20 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 20:40:20 -0000 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... References: >, <47303630.30607.2D3913@cclist.sydex.com> <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <005f01c820b5$400c5aa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Dr Who had a evil computer I think in the mid 70's. He had one in the mid-60's. The William Hartnell story "The War Machines", first broadcast in June/July 1966, featured an evil computer named "WOTAN" which tried to take over the world. TTFN - Pete. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 14:51:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:51:28 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730D060.3060501@atarimuseum.com> References: <4730B8A7.1090007@atarimuseum.com> <4730CC6F.3070303@oldskool.org> <4730D060.3060501@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4730D3D0.3080702@gmail.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Mark 13? Hmmmm, oh yeah! the Daystrom's M5 computer from Star Trek > TOS, now there were evil computer - don't get in its way when it needs > to plug in more power.... The M5 wasn't evil, it was unstable and misguided. It chose to deactivate itself rather than cause further death. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 14:52:43 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:52:43 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <005f01c820b5$400c5aa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <473099EC.8040805@atarimuseum.com> <47303630.30607.2D3913@cclist.sydex.com> <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> <005f01c820b5$400c5aa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: > The William Hartnell story "The War Machines", first broadcast in June/July > 1966, featured an evil computer named "WOTAN" which tried to take over the > world. ...where there is Wotan, there also is "Bob"... -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 6 14:58:33 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:58:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <20071106203903.F168016291@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Nov 6, 7 03:39:03 pm" Message-ID: <200711062058.lA6KwXoY012394@floodgap.com> > P.S. I am also one of the few who thought "Last Action Hero" was not > as bad as everybody said it was.. IMHO, it was a great spoof of > action movies. Briefly continuing the OT, but just briefly, I enjoyed about the first 2/3rds. It broke down when it returned to 'reality' which generally is a problem with the whole genre anyway. But I agree that some of the action movie conceits it spoofed were outrageously funny in places. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's the car, right? Chicks dig the car. -- "Batman Forever" --------------- From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Nov 6 15:09:09 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:09:09 +0100 Subject: Stats on the first known HP Computer at the South Pole In-Reply-To: <4730CADA.3030605@oldskool.org> References: <20071106094147.GA31993@usap.gov> <4730CADA.3030605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4730D7F5.6060502@bluewin.ch> Jim Leonard wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Even the microVAX that was here 10 years ago was packed >> up and removed years ago. > > I hate to sound like someone who is against the environment, but why > bother packing it up and removing it at all? I mean, come on, it's the > North Pole. Wouldn't it be easier, faster, and cheaper to just dump it > half a mile from the site? It's the North Pole -- what could happen? > Ethan is on the South Pole, and people there tend to be rather serious w.r.t. to environmental issues. Which, in the past, was not always the case... Jos From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 6 15:19:43 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 21:19:43 -0000 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... References: <4730B605.2070509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <007201c820ba$c13dd540$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> I believe you're thinking of the episode "Face of Evil", >>which introduced Leela as the Doctor's companion. > No it was the one with the giant flies and the 3rd Dr. Evil computer, giant flies, 3rd Doctor....I've seen just about every episode of Dr.Who but that doesn't ring any bells. Doctor #4 encountered the wasp-like "Wirrn" in "The Ark in Space", but evil computer...? Have a look here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/. I'm sure you'll find your story. TTFN - Pete. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 6 14:16:18 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:16:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <47305149.14986.97128E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> <47305149.14986.97128E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711062133.QAA25841@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Is there such a thing as AI (I mean, outside of political circles)? Define "AI" and maybe I can tell you. :) I've seen it said that "the core of AI is that which has not yet been done", and while I think that might be overstating it, there is a germ of truth in it. There was a time when people would have said (and probably did say) that playing chess as well as a human was evidence of real thought. Thanks to Deep Blue, we now disagree (I almost wrote "know better", but I'm not sure I think that's an accurate phrasing). > Has there been constructed any set of hardware or software that can > pass the Turing test 100% of the time? Yes, but the hardware is organic and the software is understood poorly to not at all. :-) The Turing test is not one for which 100% can be expected. > Will there ever be one? My guess is, probably. My guess is also, probably not for quite a while - I'd be surprised to see it this century. For a third guess, I'll say that this will be tatamount to creating life - that Turing-test consciousness and life will turn out to be inextricably linked. Mind you, I'm not entirely sure what "life" means in this context, so I'm not sure how meaningful that is. > What is surprising is the prevalence of CRT-based displays in these > old movies that purport to project "the future". A technological > blind spot the size of Texas. No worse than any future-projection fiction's blind spot, in that they can't imagine technology that isn't, well, imagined yet. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 15:46:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:46:13 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <200711062133.QAA25841@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> <47305149.14986.97128E@cclist.sydex.com> <200711062133.QAA25841@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4730E0A5.4010600@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> What is surprising is the prevalence of CRT-based displays in these >> old movies that purport to project "the future". A technological >> blind spot the size of Texas. > > No worse than any future-projection fiction's blind spot, in that they > can't imagine technology that isn't, well, imagined yet. If you want an interesting vision of future technology, read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov. Also, prepare to be blown away by the ending. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Nov 6 15:48:04 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:48:04 +1300 Subject: Stats on the first known HP Computer at the South Pole In-Reply-To: <4730CADA.3030605@oldskool.org> References: <20071106094147.GA31993@usap.gov> <4730CADA.3030605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20071106214804.GB18997@usap.gov> On Tue, Nov 06, 2007 at 02:13:14PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Even the microVAX that was here 10 years ago was packed > >up and removed years ago. > > I hate to sound like someone who is against the environment, but why > bother packing it up and removing it at all? I mean, come on, it's the > North Pole. South Pole. > Wouldn't it be easier, faster, and cheaper to just dump it > half a mile from the site? It's the North Pole -- what could happen? There's an international treaty that regulates activities in the Antarctic - in compliance with that treaty, in 1978, the U.S. passed the Antarctic Conservation Act, which, among other things requires that we "pack out our trash". Before the ACA, the Navy used to dump vehicles in the ocean, have an open dump at McMurdo (on the coast) with annual trash burns to reduce the volume, and at Pole, just abandon vehicles and let them drift over. Now, we have to remove building debris, scrap material, trash and waste. About the only exception is that we don't remove our waste-water and sewage - it's pumped into an ice cavern hundreds of feet below the surface (which will end up in the sea thousands of years from now). As for just leaving it outside, if it's equipment we intend to use again, it's bad to leave electronics where the ambient temperature gets well below -60F for months at a time. Bad for electrolytic caps, bad for bonding wires inside ICs, bad for LCDs... So... for all the PDP-11s and HPs and VAXen, etc., that were ever here, they are here no longer. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Nov-2007 at 21:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -41.4 F (-40.8 C) Windchill -63.6 F (-53.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.4 kts Grid 99 Barometer 682.5 mb (10534 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 6 15:48:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:48:57 -0800 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <200711062133.QAA25841@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <200711062133.QAA25841@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <473070C9.14685.11220F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2007 at 15:16, der Mouse wrote: > No worse than any future-projection fiction's blind spot, in that they > can't imagine technology that isn't, well, imagined yet. The problem is that there were indeed technologies (not widely deployed, granted) didn't look like a jug-in-a-box when most of this stuff was penned. Thin-profile CRTs were a laboratory reality (used a side-shooting electron gun and an array of wires to deflect the beam, for example). Nor was plasma display anything particularly out of the mind's reach. Rear-projection displays, etc. were long realities. Even after systems using plasma displays had been deployed (think the 70's PLATO terminal), futurists were still fixated on the jug. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 6 16:02:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:02:55 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730D060.3060501@atarimuseum.com> References: <4730B8A7.1090007@atarimuseum.com> <4730CC6F.3070303@oldskool.org> <4730D060.3060501@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4730E48F.50903@jetnet.ab.ca> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Mark 13? Hmmmm, oh yeah! the Daystrom's M5 computer from Star Trek > TOS, now there were evil computer - don't get in its way when it needs > to plug in more power.... > > and also "Nomad" the evil space probe from Star Trek TOS > > > Lots of evil technology out there... and this all predates Microsoft! ;-) This is evil computer hardware, not evil gates. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 6 16:06:40 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:06:40 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <005f01c820b5$400c5aa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: >, <47303630.30607.2D3913@cclist.sydex.com> <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> <005f01c820b5$400c5aa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4730E570.5000207@jetnet.ab.ca> Ensor wrote: > The William Hartnell story "The War Machines", first broadcast in > June/July 1966, featured an evil computer named "WOTAN" which tried to > take over the world. Why bother, you got Daleks for that. :) > TTFN - Pete. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 6 16:12:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:12:39 -0700 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <007201c820ba$c13dd540$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <4730B605.2070509@jetnet.ab.ca> <007201c820ba$c13dd540$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4730E6D7.5020002@jetnet.ab.ca> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >> I believe you're thinking of the episode "Face of Evil", > >>which introduced Leela as the Doctor's companion. > > > No it was the one with the giant flies and the 3rd Dr. > > Evil computer, giant flies, 3rd Doctor....I've seen just about every > episode of Dr.Who but that doesn't ring any bells. Doctor #4 encountered > the wasp-like "Wirrn" in "The Ark in Space", but evil computer...? > > Have a look here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/. > I'm sure you'll find your story. Yes -- Green Death. Boss's Voice : "You disappoint me, Doctor. I should have thought you'd have guessed. I am the BOSS. I'm all around you. Exactly. I am the computer." The Doctor : "Stevens, listen to me. You've seen where this efficiency of yours leads. Wholesale pollution of the countryside. Devilish creatures spawned by the filthy by-products of your technology. Men... men walking around like brainless vegetables. Death. Disease. Destruction." > > TTFN - Pete. > > > . > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 6 16:14:30 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:14:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730BF37.3050909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <763124.46850.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> YouTube is your friend. orion1052003 has uploaded several episodes of The Whiz Kid (split into 2 or 3 parts), whilst TheRedCity has uploaded a video of the theme. I'll check it out later, after I have caught up on the latest lonelygirl15 video. YouTube seems to be a great place to see old computer advert and TV programs. To think I discovered YouTube after someone pointed me in the direction of a video of BBC Micro Live from 1984, when they first had the Amiga on there :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk woodelf wrote: Ray Arachelian wrote: > There was also a TV series called The Whiz Kids that I can't recall too > much about back from the 80's that featured a TRS-80, I think. :-) Too > bad it's not available on DVD. A few coments about Japanese animation. While not a evil computer, Serial experiments Lain had a TRS-800. ( A future mac/internet clone). You have few Mad or Evil computers around but for the most part Japanese si-fi does not have many computers. Cute female mechanical dolls/robots but few computers -- that is a US thing. Ben. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 6 15:21:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 21:21:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <98728.73229.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 5, 7 05:04:36 pm Message-ID: > It's really that simple? I have some PAL (presumably) > units on their way here from OZ. I'd be elated to find > out that all I'd need to do is tweak the monitor. For monochrome composite video, or separate RGB (wheter TTL or analogue), then yes, all you should beed to do is tweak the monitor. The horizontal frequencies are close enough that it will proabably sync anyway, if not, then a touch on the horizontal frequncy control (maybe an inductor) will do it. The vertical hold control will probably need re-adjusting, but that's all. Of course if the units output PAL colour composite video it's a bit harder. Feeding that into an NTSC monitor (even after the above tweaks) will get you monochrom output. I've seen NTSC-PAL converters (simple colour system converters, they don't change the scan rates), I assume the reverse exist too. Maybe that would do the trick. If you have the origianl PAL monitors, it should be easy to get them to work on different mains voltages. AFAIK no small monitor cares about mains freqeuncy, the vertical deflection is not locked to the mains or anything like that. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 6 17:14:56 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:14:56 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730E48F.50903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4730B8A7.1090007@atarimuseum.com> <4730CC6F.3070303@oldskool.org> <4730D060.3060501@atarimuseum.com> <4730E48F.50903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4730F570.4080509@atarimuseum.com> Ah.... So in other words, we are discussing evil hardware, that by its design in evil, versus innocent hardware that is perverted into evil by installing Windows on it? ;-) Curt woodelf wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Mark 13? Hmmmm, oh yeah! the Daystrom's M5 computer from Star >> Trek TOS, now there were evil computer - don't get in its way when it >> needs to plug in more power.... >> >> and also "Nomad" the evil space probe from Star Trek TOS >> >> >> Lots of evil technology out there... and this all predates Microsoft! >> ;-) > This is evil computer hardware, not evil gates. :) > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 6 17:16:23 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:16:23 -0500 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <763124.46850.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <763124.46850.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4730F5C7.7070105@atarimuseum.com> I watched the episodes I friend sent me a few weeks back, wow - that show is far more campy and corny then I remembered (and loved it) when I was a kid ! Nice room of stuff though! Curt Andrew Burton wrote: > YouTube is your friend. > > orion1052003 has uploaded several episodes of The Whiz Kid (split into 2 or 3 parts), whilst TheRedCity has uploaded a video of the theme. > I'll check it out later, after I have caught up on the latest lonelygirl15 video. > > > YouTube seems to be a great place to see old computer advert and TV programs. To think I discovered YouTube after someone pointed me in the direction of a video of BBC Micro Live from 1984, when they first had the Amiga on there :) > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > woodelf wrote: Ray Arachelian wrote: > > >> There was also a TV series called The Whiz Kids that I can't recall too >> much about back from the 80's that featured a TRS-80, I think. :-) Too >> bad it's not available on DVD. >> > A few coments about Japanese animation. > While not a evil computer, Serial experiments Lain had a TRS-800. ( A future > mac/internet clone). You have few Mad or Evil computers around but for the > most part Japanese si-fi does not have many computers. Cute female mechanical > dolls/robots but few computers -- that is a US thing. > Ben. > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 17:23:04 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:23:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stats on the first known HP Computer at the South Pole In-Reply-To: <4730CADA.3030605@oldskool.org> References: <20071106094147.GA31993@usap.gov> <4730CADA.3030605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20071106152051.E84550@shell.lmi.net> > > Even the microVAX that was here 10 years ago was packed > > up and removed years ago. On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > I hate to sound like someone who is against the environment, but why > bother packing it up and removing it at all? I mean, come on, it's the > North Pole. Wouldn't it be easier, faster, and cheaper to just dump it > half a mile from the site? It's the North Pole -- what could happen? > (Or would that affect the experiment?) It depends. Just how evil WAS that machine? It would cost a LOT to ship it from the south pole to the north pole! How many people here would want to try to go rescue it? (before VCF90S)? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 17:27:19 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:27:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <200711062133.QAA25841@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <4730AB45.8060601@jetnet.ab.ca> <47305149.14986.97128E@cclist.sydex.com> <200711062133.QAA25841@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20071106152632.W84550@shell.lmi.net> > Is there such a thing as AI (I mean, outside of political circles)? If so, the place for such websites would be Anguilla: xxxxx.AI From tsw-cc at johana.com Tue Nov 6 19:52:41 2007 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:52:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stats on the first known HP Computer at the South Pole In-Reply-To: <200711061801.lA6I14UP069384@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <551001.93211.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > Jay, other HP fans, > > I finally got a chance to re-examine the article on the wall down here. > > Someone hung up excerpts from "The Antarctic Journal", December 1976, > page 286 (and parts of some presumably nearby pages). The article describes > the "first" computer system at the Pole, which might possibly be true. > During > the 1974/1975 Austral Summer, UC Davis sent down a pair of HP 2100S machines > to Pole. They were both equipped with 32K of memory, and sported paper tape, > at least one line printer, and a pair of 45 ips, 800 bpi magtapes. Other > I/O equipment mentioned in the article include an HP 12930A "universal > interface", at least one HP 2570A "coupler controller", and at least one > HP 12770A serial interface. > > If I run across the original journal, I can see about making scans. Right > now, there is a hodgepodge of xeroxed page fragments taped to the wall. > > Before anyone starts drooling, this gear was all long-gone 20 years after > it was installed. Even the microVAX that was here 10 years ago was packed > up and removed years ago. Closest thing I've seen to a "classic" computer > I've seen in use here lately was a Dell 386SX/16 as the head-end for the PBX > we tore out in 2004, and the Compaq 386N we used for RTTY (last fired up in > 2004 as well). > > It's all modern, boring stuff here now. :-( > > (except for the classic goodies I pack in my luggage ;-) > > -ethan > Wow... Something I know about! I was there for the installation for those computers. They were 2100A's (not 2100s). Both of the boxes had two 9 track drives with the 500cps paper tape readers, and the Facit 75 cps punches. I dont' remember much about the line printer, but there must have been one, probably one of those mini Dataproducts goodies (80 columns). They were configured to use RTE-C, the core image version of RTE used at the time. Thankfully they had 32k of memory, since the RTE stuff took up quite a bit of room, and the machines didn't have disk drives. I ended up writing a memory resident version of the papertape system (I forget what it was called) that would allow assignments of input and output devices to tape files and the like. I heard that it was useful since they had to develop the programs used in RTE-C that way. The application for the machines was for weather observation at the station. The UC Davis people had some nifty humidity sensors (heated, etc.) they were trying out. The other thing we installed was a transmitting weather station (to a satellite that orbited about once every 2 hours). Of course we didn't know when it passed by so the logic (no microprocessors then) spit out the data about once every couple of minutes. The Satellite was in polar orbit so it came by every time. It waqs run from a couple of power sources, an RTG (big huge thing) and a propane thermoelectric generator. I have fond memories of attempting to start the propane thing and not getting the gas to vaporize. I had to use TWO propane torches (one to heat the other) to get it working. Yes, this is classic stuff. It dates to 1975, long before I saw a 6800. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From grant at stockly.com Tue Nov 6 20:09:49 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:09:49 -0900 Subject: 8" disks from athana Message-ID: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Has anyone bought disks from http://www.athana.com ? I'm pretty sure I sent a price quote request in before, but don't remember hearing anything back. I just sent in another. What kinds of prices do these guys have? Anywhere else that has new 32 hard sectored 8" disks for sale? Grant From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Nov 6 20:18:51 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 6 Nov 2007 18:18:51 -0800 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <1194401931.4731208bde9ab@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Grant Stockly : > Has anyone bought disks from http://www.athana.com ? > > I'm pretty sure I sent a price quote request in before, but don't > remember hearing anything back. I just sent in another. > > What kinds of prices do these guys have? > > Anywhere else that has new 32 hard sectored 8" disks for sale? > > Grant that is a name I haven't heard in a while..... Athana. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 6 20:56:00 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 20:56:00 -0600 Subject: ontopic Message-ID: <00b201c820e9$bbc38180$6800a8c0@JWEST> reminder.... discussions of environmental issues are not freaking on topic!! Do I really have to say that? I'm simply amazed. And then I see quotes from Dr. Who. Un Freaking Believable. J From wayne.smith at charter.net Tue Nov 6 21:02:39 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (wayne.smith at charter.net) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 19:02:39 -0800 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <200711061800.lA6I0UY5069340@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> I have posted some VCFX photos at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX Labels to follow. From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 6 21:14:49 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:14:49 -0500 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> Message-ID: <002001c820ec$5ce08d90$f750f945@evan> Video, and a link for some more photos, here: http://www.news.com/1606-2-6217243.html -----Original Message----- From: wayne.smith at charter.net [mailto:wayne.smith at charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 10:03 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Subject: VCFX Photos I have posted some VCFX photos at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX Labels to follow. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 6 21:34:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:34:17 -0700 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> Message-ID: <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> wayne.smith at charter.net wrote: > I have posted some VCFX photos at: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX > > Labels to follow. > Just what is photo 8? From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 6 16:02:16 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:02:16 -0000 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... References: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com> <4730BA7D.5080207@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <000001c820f3$ccf502d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > There was also a TV series called The Whiz Kids that I can't >recall too much about back from the 80's that featured a TRS-80, >I think. :-).... I remember that! It was shown on TV over here, once....never got repeated as I recall. :-( Too > bad it's not available on DVD. > Don't forget Colossus - The Forbin Project, which was named after, but had > nothing to do with, the Tunny cracking computer at Bletchley Park. > > > > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Nov 6 21:54:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:54:27 +1300 Subject: Stats on the first known HP Computer at the South Pole In-Reply-To: <551001.93211.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200711061801.lA6I14UP069384@dewey.classiccmp.org> <551001.93211.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071107035427.GA17616@usap.gov> On Tue, Nov 06, 2007 at 05:52:41PM -0800, Tom Watson wrote: > I wrote: > > Jay, other HP fans, > > > > I finally got a chance to re-examine the article on the wall... > > from "The Antarctic Journal", December 1976, page 286... > > During the 1974/1975 Austral Summer, UC Davis sent down a pair of > > HP 2100S machines to Pole. > > Wow... Something I know about! > > I was there for the installation for those computers. They were > 2100A's (not 2100s). I just checked the original article. Perhaps there's a typo with it, but it specifically names them "HP 2100S". If there's no such beast, perhaps 30 years ago, someone mis-read something. > I dont' remember much about the line printer, but there must have been > one, probably one of those mini Dataproducts goodies (80 columns). The model isn't described, but the stats are "80 columns, 365 lpm". > Thankfully they had 32k of memory, since the RTE stuff took up > quite a bit of room, and the machines didn't have disk drives. The article does mention that disk drives were not sent because of concerns of reliability issues. Nice to hear from someone who knows a little about it. If there are any nice advertising brochures about the HP2100(A), it might be nice to hang them up on the wall by the article so people can compare what we had then to what they have now. The few pictures that are up there are very small - like color copies of 3"x5" prints. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Nov-2007 at 03:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -46.3 F (-43.5 C) Windchill -70.4 F (-56.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.9 kts Grid 335 Barometer 680.1 mb (10624 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 6 22:24:26 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 04:24:26 -0000 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... References: <4730B8A7.1090007@atarimuseum.com> <4730CC6F.3070303@oldskool.org><4730D060.3060501@atarimuseum.com> <4730D3D0.3080702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003301c820f6$14fae610$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > The M5 wasn't evil, it was unstable and misguided.... Nor was "Nomad" for that matter, it had had it's programming scrambled.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 6 22:51:53 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 04:51:53 -0000 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... References: Message-ID: <00a601c820f9$ebaf0300$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> That's a couple of hours of your life which you'll never get >>back.... > Then I probably should not say that I actually like the movie, have >watched it more then once and that I also own it... :) Sorry, there should've been a smiley on the end of that (I got distracted by a knock at the door). ;-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 6 22:52:32 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 04:52:32 -0000 Subject: VCFX Photos References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> Message-ID: <00ad01c820fa$025ef6f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >I have posted some VCFX photos at: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX Some nice photos there, thanks. TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 6 23:16:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:16:56 -0800 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4730D9C8.6103.2AC3EF4@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2007 at 17:09, Grant Stockly wrote: > Anywhere else that has new 32 hard sectored 8" disks for sale? Dunno, but they shouldn't be unobtainium. I've got a couple of boxes with the Wang name on them--and other wapros used that format--Harris Lanier, etc. Cheers, Chuck From grant at stockly.com Wed Nov 7 02:07:13 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:07:13 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JR4008VDMNCTL60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I'm about to go insane. Here is what I have: -Fake Altair (rock solid in everything but tarbell) -Tarbel 1011D -Tarbell 1011A, which SEEMS to be better than the 1011D. -4xMITS 16MCS 16k memory cards -5xSEALS 8k SRAM -2SIO -MITS Rev0 CPU Anyway...it doesn't work at all if I have a 16k memory card and an 8k memory card. The 1011A works best (gets the furtherest in all tests). If I'm lucky it asks me how many disks I have! It also doesn't work with 3 seals 8k cards. When I put in a CompuPro active terminator on the end of the bus, the computer goes crazy and doesn't do anything. Installing an "Industrial Micro Systems" terminator from 1980 it changes operational characteristics, but still doesn't quite do it. I had been trying to make the stupid thing work for months, on and off... Well, I decided to stop trying to limit the number of cards on the bus. I put in 5 8k seals cards and the stupid thing boots and runs commands. Before while loading BDOS it would most of the time report corrupted or missing sectors. Or just print trash. Now I can run DISKDMP and programs like that. After working flawlessly for a few minutes its back to crazy. I can single step through the tarbel boot program and see it going crazy... : ( I'd like the thing to be rock solid with minimal memory cards. Can anyone think of WHY the tarbel card is so much trouble? I burn EPROMs all day long with this Altair. It takes 3 minutes to burn a 1702 and I've never had one fail! I can also leave it playing music for all night long with no problems!!! I need help!!! : ( Grant From grant at stockly.com Wed Nov 7 02:39:59 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:39:59 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JR4008VDMNCTL60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR4008VDMNCTL60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <0JR4008MVO5YTL70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 11:07 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >I'm about to go insane. As I type I am backing up my second boot disk. I put the tarbell card as close to the CPU as possible and it booted. However, I did this last time it failed and that didn't fix it. Is it possibly that the buffers are not staying on long enough during the I/O bus cycle? Should I put a terminator between the front panel and CPU card? Still, the Tarbell is the ONLY card that has a problem in my Altair. : ( Grant From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Nov 7 05:08:03 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 03:08:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hans destroys VAX! Message-ID: Haha! I can't wait to show Hans. He was so embarassingly drunk that night it's not even funny. This happened after I left, and it got much worse. I'm hope no one got on video what I did. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Nov 7 08:15:11 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:15:11 -0500 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <200711071320.lA7DKUKY007993@hosting.monisys.ca> > Anywhere else that has new 32 hard sectored 8" disks for sale? I'm sure you will be best off with new media, however in the event that you can't find a suitable vendor, I might be able to help. I have several unopened boxes of 8" 32 sector diskettes. These are NOT new (as in of recent manufacture), but are unused and still sealed in the original shrink wrap. Drop me a line off-list if you need them. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wayne.smith at charter.net Wed Nov 7 09:12:06 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 07:12:06 -0800 Subject: VCFX In-Reply-To: <200711062212.lA6MCT9K073679@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001201c82150$8f918c80$6601a8c0@Wayne> I have posted some VCFX photos at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX Labels to follow. From aijones2 at bsu.edu Wed Nov 7 09:21:02 2007 From: aijones2 at bsu.edu (ajones) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:21:02 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:31:28 -0700 > From: woodelf > Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > > PS. I like windows/95 over the latest versions of linux ... Too much bloat. > There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated than Windows 95. Windows 95 will very comfortably get you TCP/IP, protected memory, preemptive multitasking[1], and a graphical desktop on a 486 SX with 8M of RAM. Linux 2.0 with XF86 3.x was a carnival of swapping on that configuration. Solaris x86 wouldn't even boot. If Windows 3.1 was the last nail in the coffin for UNIX on the desktop, Windows 95 was the last shovel of dirt and the weepy obit. It's almost fun to load up Redhat 4 on a typical PC of the day and watch it take twenty minutes to boot. [1] Yes, Windows 95 had memory protection and preemptive multitasking. All native win32 and native kernel code ran that way. The catch was that 16 bit drivers and applications were exempted from these restrictions. Worse still, Windows 95 shipped with some 16 bit drivers for generic devices, giving you a broken configuration out of the box on a lot of hardware. From jrr at flippers.com Thu Nov 1 01:28:22 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:28:22 -0700 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47297206.7040208@flippers.com> Richard wrote: > I'm going to VCF/nanotech thing by plane and I thought this would be a > good way to bring Al some 8" floppies (PLATO system!) to > archive/image, but I wondered if the airport x-ray scanner would do > anything bad to them? I'd hate to damage them on my way to having > them archived... > > As far as I can tell x-rays themselves can't affect floppy discs, however the transport system can if it is magnetized for any reason (rollers, plates, etc). I understand that the metal detectors can cause problems with discs though. Best to transport the discs in a box (metalized plastic??) that can shield against stray magnetic fields if the disc's data are of high value. No idea where to get such a box/container though. A scroogle search for "shield floppy disc container erase" gives some interesting patents though... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Thu Nov 1 15:33:27 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:33:27 -0700 Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I flew from Chicago with a couple 1/2" reel tapes this summer and just asked that they not be x-rayed. The TSA attendant called their supervisor who did a physical examination, swabbed them, and I was good to go. Of course YMMV. Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney Skype: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:28 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: airport x-ray machines: can they damage 8" floppies? > > I'm going to VCF/nanotech thing by plane and I thought this > would be a good way to bring Al some 8" floppies (PLATO > system!) to archive/image, but I wondered if the airport > x-ray scanner would do anything bad to them? I'd hate to > damage them on my way to having them archived... > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available > for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu Nov 1 18:50:18 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 17:50:18 -0600 Subject: Smalltalk for OS/2 References: <472921D4.9030504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009301c81ce1$f5437fc0$6501a8c0@xppro> Sorry I can't help you, but you sure brought back some memories! Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 6:46 PM Subject: Smalltalk for OS/2 > > I'm looking for Digitalk Visual Smalltalk Enterprise for OS/2 including > PARTS Workbench. Let me know if any of you have a copy available. > Thanks. > > Peace... Sridhar > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 1 20:34:38 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:34:38 -0400 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <0JQU001EIUZ5OF01@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:23:48 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 3:43 PM -0700 11/1/07, David Griffith wrote: >>I'm thinking of a device about the size of a couple CD jewel cases that >>has two serial ports, a ps/2 or usb port, VGA port, power jack, and >>perhaps a JTAG header concealed within. This device is a regular RS232 >>serial terminal. Plug in a monitor, keyboard, and something talking rs232 >>and you're ready to go. Inside there would be a microprocessor, some ram, >>some flash, and an FPGA to take care of glue logic and talking to the VGA >>port. The FPGA would be loaded with the digital schematics of a >>particular terminal and its firmware, for instance, a Wyse 85 or 99GT (my >>favorites). That would get you most of the usual emulations. >> >>How hard would it be to create something like this? How much would it >>cost? > >Just buy an HP Think Client. Older models show up on eBay for ~$100. >Out of curiousity, does anyone have experience with the HP Thin >Clients? I've been thinking about getting either a VT525 or one of >the HP Thin Clients. Get any dumb laptop with a 386 or higher plug in an external keyboard and load dos, under dos load your favorite terminal emulator. I have a Modular Systems 486/50 with 32Mb ram brick running W98 to do that. It has NIC, Parallel, serial, PS/2 Mouse, PS2 keyboard and S7 VGA in a 3"x5"x12" package and runs off a 12V at 1A wart. It was designed as a thin (diskless) client but a 2.5" 1gb disk mounts nicely. SIIG also made bricks that would do well for that also. Bottom line is there are plenty of small systems with more than enough power to do a VTxxx. If not you can get PC104 with dualcore. But really DEC did VT52 with random logic, Vt100 was 8080, Vt220 was 8051 and VT320 used two 8051s. It doesn't need a lot of CPU to do terminal other than PC display interface and keyboard is high software overhead. So there exists enough hardware out there that is smaller than the keyboard and a 15" LCD already. >BTW, from where I'm sitting the most important thing is how such a >device handles the keyboard, I need the keypad to act right when I'm >in VMS. I have yet to find a PC terminal emulation that gets the keypad near right. Some fail badly on VT52/100 emulation as well. So when the OS want a VTxxx I have a VT100/125/320/340/1200 as needed. Another area where they fail often is the DEC request "what are you" and often most terminal emulators put squiggles on the screen rather than handle the ESC correctly. Allison >Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Fri Nov 2 04:35:39 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:35:39 +0000 Subject: 3.25-inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20071101210127.M98931@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730711012034i7a0c454dyf6f6ac0aadac0840@mail.gmail.com> <20071101210127.M98931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711020935.39236.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Friday 02 November 2007 04:02:19 Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Jason T wrote: > > Not sure if any computer ever used them, but I remember having an old > > Akai sampler that used a bizarre "Quickdisk" format. The sampler is > > long gone, but somewhere I have one or two of the disks, which will be > > handy should I ever try to create a magnetic media display of some > > sort. I think they measured...2.75" (?) and held...not much at all. > > was that a 2.8" diskette with a single continuous spiral track? That's it exactly. It was the Akai S612 - or more specifically, the Akai MD280 external disk drive. IIRC the sampler could be bought without the drive, and either send and receive samples over sysex or from tape. I *think* it had 48k of memory. I passed up the chance to buy one, with the drive and a large library of disks, for 50 quid in a music shop in Inverness a few years ago. Oh well. Gordon From austinpass at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 18:17:32 2007 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:17:32 +0000 Subject: Classiccmpers around Yorkshire? Message-ID: <3bacbc0711021617q7f63097boe82ec90c6407e0c7@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07 22:50, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > Hey folks, > I've bought a sampler off eBay - Casio FZ-10m, contains an 8086, is > user-programmable (Casio released the SDK, apparently) and is way more > than 10 years old, so fairly on-topic I'd say. I need to get it shipped > from Huddersfield up to Glasgow. Is there anyone within striking > distance that could be persuaded to pick it up from the seller, package > it and send it up? I'll pay for all the costs and throw in a few beer > vouchers too. > > Gordon More than happy to assist. I'm around 10 miles from Huddersfield (Saddleworth). I'll be back in the UK and available to collect / package / post from Monday onwards. Regards, Austin. From jrr at flippers.com Fri Nov 2 20:24:00 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:24:00 -0700 Subject: Signetics N82S115 ROMs In-Reply-To: References: <200710311043.l9VAhAwh081708@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <472BCDB0.3090708@flippers.com> CRC wrote: > Does anyone have experience with these programmable bipolar ROMs > failing after a long period of time? I have an old piece of test > equipment that has 8X300 running the display reading its program from > the aforementioned ROMs and the text info is missing pixels - > apparently in the same place in the same letters. > > If there are any 7448s or 7447s in the display I would be checking them first. A number of our early video games use those PROMs and I have not had any failures. You can subsitute an Eprom if you are willing to glomp up interface wiring between the two. Certainly you could read the PROMs and reconstruct the missing data if you were so inclined. I should be able to burn a replacement if you can't find anyone else and can get a blank 82S115 as my Andromeda PROM reader claims it can handle them... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From rw54 at charter.net Sat Nov 3 13:02:48 2007 From: rw54 at charter.net (Rusty Walker) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:02:48 -0400 Subject: RCA WO-33A Manual available Message-ID: <000501c81e43$beb9f840$6401a8c0@Elvis> Sir: Do you still have this manual available? Rusty Walker From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 3 19:25:23 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 20:25:23 -0400 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board Message-ID: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 17:53:05 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB >>> and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. >> >> Me too! >> >> Seriously, I'm looking too. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >I am looking for anything that *DOES* not end in 86. >> . Sounds like someone looking for an ASk 6Pak Pro. Allison From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Nov 4 13:56:32 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:56:32 -0000 Subject: Info about a Mullard Core Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BB7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I used to work on similar Mullard core stores. They where part of the memory units in 4100 mainframes. The ones I knew where definatly 4K (4096). They were mounted in the centre of a card rack with read/ write boards on either. OC81 and OC71 transistors in great profusion. Some had to be gain matched. You started with a box of 500 OC81's, a pile of paper cups and a transistor tester set to measure hfe. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 01 November 2007 00:38 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Info about a Mullard Core Hi, > From: "Gavin Melville" > Subject: Info about a Mullard Core > Hi, > > I have had for many years a large core, and while I don't really want > to part with it, I also see what little pieces of core sell for on > ebay.... > > I was told when given this about 15 years ago that it was from a > Burroughs mainframe which was installed at the Cadburys head office in > New Zealand and that they had paid GBP 20,000 for it in 1960. 20,000 for the core or for the mainframe? How sure are you about it being Burroughs? Wouldn't they be using U.S. components rather than British? I know Cadburys bought an ICT 1300 series machine around 1963/4, and its now in a museum in NZ. It was a 48 bit machine, but I think it had a much smaller store of 1200 or 2000 words and would have cost around 100,000 GBP. I have read there was an option to replace all the 'barn door' core stores with a single store of 4,000 words of 48 bits, though I've never seen one, nor the logic diagrams. I have always wondered whether it used a full binary decode (using 16384 words to provide 4000 words of usable memory) of the 14 bits rather than a BCD decode. The 1300s use lots of Mullard components. Just a small piece of a jigsaw puzzle, maybe not even the right puzzle! Roger Holmes. Owner of the last working ICT 1301. > I have > been unable to find out if this was correct however. Does anyone on > the list know anything about it ? > > pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/8788341 at N05/?saved=1 > > There are 921600 cores in the array, which is made up of 48x48 cores, > 4 to a layer and 100 layers. > > _________________________________ > > Regards, > Gavin Melville > Senior Engineer > Acclipse Electronic Ltd > From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Nov 5 12:54:31 2007 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:54:31 -0500 Subject: OT: eBay/Paypal security In-Reply-To: <472B9246.8080208@atarimuseum.com> References: <472B8D13.7030505@oldskool.org> <472AB675.9080207@mdrconsult.com> <472B4DED.7040300@atarimuseum.com> <472B8D13.7030505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071105135311.012cd3d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Curt @ Atari Museum may have mentioned these words: >New thing these days, thieves are stealing the krypton headlights out of >cars... Is this so when they get caught by Superman they have a chance of getting away??? Sorry, just had to. Grabbing coat, calling taxi... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From larrydev at earthlink.net Mon Nov 5 17:52:46 2007 From: larrydev at earthlink.net (Larry G DeVries) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:52:46 -0600 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: I saw this from Bill Whitson dated 1997 on the web, Bill, I saw your list of classic computers. Now over 10 years old but - Great!! I am looking for more info on this computer >> Control Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ Model 110 6809 64K ?? MICRO 83 I would appreciate anything - more specs or a photo(s)? I do have the CDC announcement of the product in the NYTimes and it was September 14, 1981. http://query.nytimes.com It was "priced at $4,995" with "business and educational applications cost between $625 and $4000" I am not sure when (or if) the product actually was available for shipment. Thanks, Larry G. DeVries Eden Prairie, Minn. 952-949-9604 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 5 17:53:47 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:53:47 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions Message-ID: <0JR200GVW513PJC0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Kaypro 4/84 questions > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:27:29 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> selecting the drive should be apparent as Kaypros tend to leave the light on >> all the time. >> > Will it be supported in some manner by the software? >> Hm, kinda doubtful, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a long time >> since I dove into those particular interface specs. > >There WERE patches available for using 720K (3.5" or 5.25") drives on >Kaypros. > >"Advent"? Advent supports both 720k and 781K formats on DSDD 96tpi 5.25 or 3.5" Advent Turborom with the Advent disk personality board. I have both in mine One floppy is the 48tpi two sided half height, the other is 3.5" in a PC 5.25" adaptor and inside I have a third 3.5" as a default boot drive. Lots of storage. Allison >MicroCornucopia? >Chuck might know. > > From ger_german at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 05:45:44 2007 From: ger_german at yahoo.com (German Geraskin) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 03:45:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: for RodSmallwood - Victor V286C Message-ID: <199367.66681.qm@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> I have found your following post by Google when I was trying to solve the same problem. -------------------------------------------------- Hi I have the system unit for a Victor V286C PC manufactured in 1991. Its in really nice condition. Keyboard and mouse are no problem. However the display is a different matter. It has a nine pin display connector which would make it a CGA ,MGA or Hercules output. Anybody any ideas as to where I might find a matching monitor? Rod Smallwood ---------------------------------------------------- I could not find any solutions on the Internet, and then start experiment. I have found ISA video card with standard vga-connector, put it to the top ISA slot... and have no effect. Then I switched a jumper near ISA slot to DISABLE position and miracle happend. :) By the way, DIP switch on the back panel of system unit was in the following position: 1-on, 2-on, 3-off, 4-on, 5-off, 6-off. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 09:00:26 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:00:26 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <0JR300A4WAZY4XC0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > From: Cameron Kaiser > Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:17:38 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > You're going to have to 'splain that one to me, Lucy. There were >> > plenty of bitmapped graphics machines for the home market. >> >> Name is not lucy. The LISA and MAC I consider BITMAPPED. >> C64's and others had sprite graphics. Amiga and Atari(sp) >> were maketed as games machines. The APPLE II split screen >> I liked for text on the bottom (FAST) , graphics on the top >> slow. Only the development of fast 2D graphics cards even >> make modern software usable. > >You have an odd taxonomy here. The Amigas and Atari (STs and otherwise) >computers were not marketed strictly as game machines (or else you should >include the C64 in that category). And they are most definitely bitmapped. > >The C64 has sprite graphics, but it definitely has a bitmapped graphics >mode. It's somewhat more inconvenient to work in because of its cell- >oriented arrangement, but it's bitmapped. > >So, I'm not sure where you're drawing the line here, but all of the machines >you mention have bitmapped graphics and were home computers, except perhaps >the Lisa, but only due to cost. Comentary: The problem as initially launched was small inexpensive terminal "box" of insignificant size that used PC display and keyboard. Paraphrased more or less. One, most applications that use "terminals" are non graphic or if they do it's low res and minimal. If that were not true my Vt125 and VT340 would see more action as they are both graphic and support color. With that most terminals are text, 80x24 or 80x25 and some can do 132x20. The "terminal" is expected to comply with ANSI escapes, VT52 or ADM1/3 typically to be most useful. This is often important to editors and many other applications that do screen handling. With that anything with more than an 8051, character cell display is likely over kill and under utilization. The simplest home brewed terminal I'd seen was a computime SBC880 (z80,1k ram, 2k rom, 1 serial IO and a parallel IO) and a PT VDM1 (yes it's 64x16lines) though a 80x24 card could be used. The whole mess was wrapped in a minibox with PS measureing 12x7x4 inches making it smaller than the monitor and serial keyboard used. It did a fair (limited to 64x16) VT52 emulation with soft scroll and no flashing and could support 19.2kbaud serial rates. The guy that bilt it spent $200 for the boards, 2 S100 connectors and power supply, aluminum box and even a 9" B&W monitor back in 1982. I'd think with current parts [one of the 8051 clones or eZ80 and a CPLD] a 80x25 terminal could be put on a 4x5" card with minimal effort. The output should drive a standard PC tube/LCD with one selectable color and use a PC keyboard power would come from a wall wart. Personally a VT320 with a mono LCD rather than a CRT would be ideal and much more compact at 2 peices total (display and keyboard). Allison >-- >------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com >-- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "All-Time High" from "Octopussy" ------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 09:14:28 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:14:28 -0500 Subject: 8" disk drive project Message-ID: <0JR300LYDBNCN640@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 8" disk drive project > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:04:47 -0900 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I want to use a QUME 842 or SA800 in an altair disk subsystem. > >Both seem to have the same interface. > >The FD400-5x0-5x1 manual seems to show the drives being quite similar. > >The first thing I see is that there are extra signals. > >"Trim Erase", "Write Enable", and "Write Data" where the Shugart >interface only has "Write Data" and "Write Gate". I assume that gate >and enable are the same thing. The FD Pertec drives also have "IN", >"OUT", and "STEP" instead of "STEP" and "DIRECTION", but that is not >a big deal. That can be generated in software. Trimerase is usually jumpered to Write-enable. >What I don't see is any input to perform the function of head >current. How does the shugart interface handle this? Not all drives required or used it. >Can I ignore the trim erase feature? No. >How do I generate a write busy >signal? I'm willing to make some circuits to fake these signals if required. Write busy is easy set a oneshot on write enable and use the output as a response. If you think about it why sould you need write busy if your busy writing? However some used that as a Door lock signal to prevent opening a door during write. The 8" interface world is generally complicated by difference names, pinouts and signals for the same or very similar signals. That and just as many signals and options that go unsued or just not required. Allison >Thanks, >Grant From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 09:21:51 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:21:51 -0500 Subject: 8" disk drive project - maybe 3.5" project too??? Message-ID: <0JR300F1JBZNMX12@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8" disk drive project - maybe 3.5" project too??? > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:50:45 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I'm going to add some to my own topic. The questions below still >stand, but I've got more info! : ) > >>I want to use a QUME 842 or SA800 in an altair disk subsystem. >> >>Both seem to have the same interface. >> >>The FD400-5x0-5x1 manual seems to show the drives being quite similar. >> >>The first thing I see is that there are extra signals. >> >>"Trim Erase", "Write Enable", and "Write Data" where the Shugart >>interface only has "Write Data" and "Write Gate". I assume that >>gate and enable are the same thing. The FD Pertec drives also have >>"IN", "OUT", and "STEP" instead of "STEP" and "DIRECTION", but that >>is not a big deal. That can be generated in software. >> >>What I don't see is any input to perform the function of head >>current. How does the shugart interface handle this? >> >>Can I ignore the trim erase feature? How do I generate a write busy >>signal? I'm willing to make some circuits to fake these signals if required. > >More info: > >The pinout of an Altair disk drive...of the wires connected. Omitted >pins are either not connected, power, or ground. All lettered >connections are ground. > >6 - Output - Door Open (IDOP >7 - Head Current Switch (IHCS) >8 - External Trim Erase (Option) (IEEN) >9 - Input - Write Enable (IWEN) >10 - Input - Write Data Input (IWDA) >11 - Input - Step In (ISTI) >15 - Input - Step Out (ISTO) >16 - Input - Head Load (IHLD) >17 - Output - Index (IINXP) >18 - Input - Drive Motor On (IDEN) >19 - Track 0 (ITRK0) >20 - Output - Read Data Output (IRDA) > >One thing that interests me slightly more is the possibility of a >regular 3.5" disk connected to the Altair. I don't care about the >encoding or format being compatible with a standard controller. > >It is very similar, but is also a soft sector disk/drive. How close >is close? Can I just use a microcontroller with a timer to time from >one index to the next and divide it up into 32 sectors? Will this be >close enough for the Altair? Anyone know what kinds of errors I >would get? A microcontroller running at 16MHz would be able to count >between pulses with 16MHz/1 accuracy. With the SA800 I would have a >sector hole sensor giving me the correct timing. > >There still is the issue of the write trim erase feature, whatever that is... Write trim erase is a signal to the head assembly (driver) that turns on the erase segment of the head for erasing the area either side of the head. It's also called tunnel erase. This gives some tolerence to off track reading as the intertrack gaps are "clean". Tunnel erase is still part of all floppy drives but is activated by Write-enable and you never "hear" of it. In 1976 all this was new and magical until Sugart came out with the much simplified 5.25 SA400. >Any comments or ideas on the idea? Is it worth trying? I've got a >very weird tarbell card that formats and uses 3.5" disks as a 70k >mini floppy. I guess anything is possible. : ) Sounds like a wither the DD or SD tarbel card that could interface to most any drive using soft sector. Myself I'd persue something using a 5.25 or 3.5" drive with a current softsector interface to the drive and enough CPU smarts to fake looking like the Altair interface which was dumb as a rock and depended on the 8080 to do most everything. Allison > >2 - Density Select (/REDWC) >8 - Index (/INDEX) >10 - Motor Enable Drive 0 (/MOTEA) >12 - Drive Select 1 (/DRVSA) >14 - Drive Select 0 (/DRVSB) >16 - Motor Enable Drive 1 (/MOTEB) >18 - Direction Select (/DIR) >20 - Head Step (/STEP) >22 - Write Data (/WDATE) >24 - Floppy Write Enable (/WGATE) >26 - Track 00 (/TRK0) >28 - Write Protect (/WPT) >30 - Read Data (/RDATA) >32 - Head Select (/SIDE1) >34 - Disk Change/Ready (/DISKCHG) > >I'm not going to sleep a wink tonight. I hate having ideas at 10PM... : ( > >Grant From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 09:36:19 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:36:19 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions Message-ID: <0JR300EYPCNQARD1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions > From: Brian Wheeler > Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:13:40 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I recently acquired a Kaypro 4/84 and I'm in the process of cleaning it >up and getting it happy. > >There are a couple of problems with it that maybe someone can shed some >light on: >* one of the keyboard latches is broken. Anyone know a good substitute >and/or workaround? I don't care so much about it, but it'd be nice to >be able to lug it into the kitchen and carry something else at the same >time :) > >* They keyboard cable is missing, but I substituted a keyboard cable >from a DEC terminal keyboard and it seems to work. The tech manual I >found online says that using a phone cord causes dropped characters due >to the smaller wire gauge, so I'm hoping that this cable will be sturdy >enough. The DEC cable is about the best choice available. >* There is a screw in the 2nd floppy drive opening. I've tried removing >the drive sled (via the screws on the bottom), but alas it seems like >the drives have to come out of the front individually. The screws are >pretty solidly inserted and I cannot get them loose without stripping >them. I'm not able to get to the inner ones easily without removing the >motherboard and the monitor. Is it possible to take the bezel off of >the drive and then slide the cage backward and then out? The drives are >the shugart ones. Mine had screws top and bottom. They tended to vary things. >* I'd like to replace the 2nd drive with a 3.5" floppy. I've found a >Sony HD drive along with a power and plug converter. Knowing that PCs >use a twisted cable scheme, what things should I be aware of when >cabling in this new drive? Will it be supported in some manner by the >software? Its not a big deal if it turns out to be a 360K 3.5" floppy, >as long as its readable by my linux box. I've done this using a 3.5" to 5.25" adaptor. The software will not utilize the full 80 tracks of the 3.5" floppy and possibly both sides if the roms are not updated. The Advent turborom with disk personality card and likely others support this. The drives I used had the 1-4 jumper like 5.25" floppies so it was a matter of pin to card edge adaptor, power adaptor and drive select jumper. For later drives you make have no choice but to make a "funny cable" to do drive select. the reason for that is those drives are locked to cable select. Allison From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Tue Nov 6 13:34:48 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:34:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <4730BF37.3050909@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Nov 06, 2007 12:23:35 PM Message-ID: <200711061934.lA6JYmhE002019@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Ray Arachelian wrote: > > There was also a TV series called The Whiz Kids that I can't recall too > much about back from the 80's that featured a TRS-80, I think. :-) Too > bad it's not available on DVD. I actually have the entire series (18 episodes), tracked down a torrent. They're simply copies from old VHS recordings, but not to bad. Wasn't a TRS-80 though, here's a page with a promo pic: http://epguides.com/WhizKids/guide.shtml Marty From j.skinner3 at cox.net Tue Nov 6 16:30:57 2007 From: j.skinner3 at cox.net (John Skinner) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:30:57 -0600 Subject: Heath H-101 revisited, Winchester Disk Controller 85-2819-1 References: 3B00019F.98218BA7@internet1.net Message-ID: <4730EB21.4010208@cox.net> Trying to clear out a couple storage sheds and have a Winchester Disk Controller 85-2819-1 Google gives reference to a Heath H-101. Do you know of any interest for this board, thanks. John Skinner From paul0926 at comcast.net Tue Nov 6 17:55:14 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:55:14 -0700 Subject: Hans destroys VAX! References: <040a01c8203e$3b1a7530$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <006f01c820d0$79e13d70$6501a8c0@xppro> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 11:28 PM Subject: Hans destroys VAX! > This was brought to my attention at the VCF X. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP-F7XxrDA > > For those who don't know him, Han is in the blue shirt and black pants > ... his standard uniform. What a waste. What a shame. From mike at ambientdesign.com Tue Nov 6 22:28:02 2007 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:28:02 +1300 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <000001c820f3$ccf502d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20071106150212.E1D384F7B9@mail.wordstock.com><4730BA7D.5080207@arachelian.com> <000001c820f3$ccf502d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <80295B77E8A94D5B844E10F3695756C2@fluke> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085110/ I've just watched a few episodes of this series - jammed with interesting classic computer gear. Worth a watch for that alone. The whole series hasn't aged any better than the equipment though! Still, if anyone's keen, it's easy enough to track down. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084978/ On the other hand, Automan, while also featuring interesting period and earlier machines, is probably not worth the time/effort. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ensor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:02 AM Subject: Re: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... > Hi, > > > There was also a TV series called The Whiz Kids that I can't > >recall too much about back from the 80's that featured a TRS-80, > >I think. :-).... > > I remember that! It was shown on TV over here, once....never got repeated > as I recall. :-( > > Too >> bad it's not available on DVD. >> Don't forget Colossus - The Forbin Project, which was named after, but >> had nothing to do with, the Tunny cracking computer at Bletchley Park. >> >> >> >> From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 07:08:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 08:08:18 -0500 Subject: 8" disk drive project - maybe 3.5" project too??? Message-ID: <0JR500E6B0GQCK73@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8" disk drive project - maybe 3.5" project too??? > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:32:34 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >>Write trim erase is a signal to the head assembly (driver) that turns on >>the erase segment of the head for erasing the area either side of the head. >>It's also called tunnel erase. This gives some tolerence to off track reading >>as the intertrack gaps are "clean". Tunnel erase is still part of all >>floppy drives but is activated by Write-enable and you never "hear" of it. >> >>In 1976 all this was new and magical until Sugart came out with the much >>simplified 5.25 SA400. > > From reading the information on the Internet I have pretty much >guessed that much, that it was done automatically on new drives. > >> >Any comments or ideas on the idea? Is it worth trying? I've got a >> >very weird tarbell card that formats and uses 3.5" disks as a 70k >> >mini floppy. I guess anything is possible. : ) >> >>Myself I'd persue something using a 5.25 or 3.5" drive with a current >>softsector interface to the drive and enough CPU smarts to fake looking >>like the Altair interface which was dumb as a rock and depended on the >>8080 to do most everything. > >That is what I was thinking about too. I was thinking about a >controller that hot wired into the existing drive card set. Drive 1 >would activate the fake 3.5" disk or flash memory and drive 0 would >activate the 8" drive for example. That would allow for easy >migration from 8" to a different format. If you can that works. >It would also be nice to have a media readable on a PC. A 3.5" disk >with the fake hard sector formatting wouldn't be possible... Thats impostant as most users will find the availble on media offerings a bit thin is you go with hard sector (faked or real). >What do you think about drive RPM? Should I be able to fake the 32 >hard sectors at any rate I want as long as its as fast or slower than >the 8" drive? I won't touch that. It's one of many warrens and burrows to dive into. >The 3.5" disk should be writing the bits at whatever >bit rate is requested, right? The only reason I want to do the 3.5" >disk interface with faking 32 hard sectors is because it would be a >fast way to get going. Hardly any hardware development required. Drive rpm is always a problem. Even for soft sector the data sep has to deal with that. Faked hard sector is just causing additional pain. Take it from someone that uses a NS* hard sector system where the media and the controller are far more common and pretty reliable and it's a major pain. Media is hard to get and hard sector always was a closed gate to transfering software. I felt the nonportable media was always a major pain and handicap. I still maintain a "stock NS* Horizon" as an artifact but due to media availability and portability my second Horizon that I do use a lot has a softsector controller and hard disk as primary storage. I'd suggest two things: Do complete Altair disk and drives and 1 floppy with it and make additional media the users problem like in 1976, 1980, 1985 and more so now. Or a completely new controller (non replica) that acts like the Altair part (runs unaltered altair basic and all) but is normal softsector using easier to get 5.25 or 3.5 media with portability (and PC as a disk generator) in mind. This would make the system more easily shown and used. Also the user can than have CP/M as well as it was also historically important to any Altair user of the time. Like the 8800BT I have the few that had the Altair contoller usually added a Tarbell or other later on to gain access to the larger software market. Those that started with the base Altair and were slower to go to floppy often didn't even bother with the altair disk and use NS*, Tarbel or one of a handful of others with NS*dos or CP/M as the OS platform. It would be interesting to see how many Altairs (all versions of the 8800) wer sold and then how many disk controllers. I suspect based on my experince of the time it will be something like 20:1 likely greater. The reason was at that time by 1977 the cost differential was fairly great to have Altair floppy disk over brand-x and CP/M was seen a cleary the up and comming OS. It also was a factor that long shipping delays by MITS at times and problems experinced by some tended to push some more toward the after market add ons. My experience, I built and tested the first Altair FDC sold on LI for a company. Just my opinion. Allison >Thanks! > >Grant From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 7 09:59:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:59:29 +0000 Subject: PERQ Emulator Progress (of sorts)! In-Reply-To: <4726AF10.2010903@msu.edu> References: <4726AF10.2010903@msu.edu> Message-ID: <4731E0E1.6040903@yahoo.co.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > Sorry, I just had to share this with someone, and I thought some of you > guys might appreciate it... Bah, I just got this (and a whole other load of classiccmp mail from around the 30th) - but congratulations :) Having done some fiddling around with the hardware, I can appreciate what a massive task it is to have got as far as you have... Are there many PERQs in the US? It's one of those machines I'd quite like to find one day (we've got several at Bletchley in the UK, but even if I could have one it's a bit heavy to get across the pond with me! :-) From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Nov 7 10:02:54 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:02:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> References: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, ajones wrote: > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:21:02 -0500 > From: ajones > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:31:28 -0700 >> From: woodelf >> Subject: Re: modern serial terminal >> >> PS. I like windows/95 over the latest versions of linux ... Too much bloat. >> > There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated than > Windows 95. Windows 95 will very comfortably get you TCP/IP, protected > memory, preemptive multitasking[1], and a graphical desktop on a 486 SX with > 8M of RAM. Linux 2.0 with XF86 3.x was a carnival of swapping on that > configuration. Solaris x86 wouldn't even boot. > Umm... nonsense... Ultrix32 on a Vaxstation (say 1/8 the horsepower of the 486sx) was comfortable in 8M, including _complete_ TCPIP, X, real shell(s), and reliability... all this about 8 years before W95... Peter Wallace From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:18:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:18:17 -0500 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: <13135db40710230713r63bc269bg43109da5692d5a4e@mail.gmail.com> References: <08d2gn20ltu0yh4.231020071137@jvdg.com> <13135db40710230713r63bc269bg43109da5692d5a4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4731E549.1090009@gmail.com> Mike Shields wrote: > If I were to imagine starting over in SGI's, I'd probably get an Indigo2 or > an Octane2. An Indigo2 is cheap, but heavy if you're going to ship. They're > basically indestructible. An Octane 2, well equipped, is the best performing > workstation short of the Fuel ($$$), but still very heavy to ship. Octanes > have a higher incidence (at least anecdotally - have no statistics) of > mainboard/frontplane issues, compared to analogous parts in the Indigo2. The Fuel isn't *that* expensive. A lot of places are dumping their IRIX hardware nowadays, since it's no longer supported. Peace... Sridhar From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Nov 7 10:26:54 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:26:54 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1194452814.19026.24.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 17:54 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 05 November 2007 13:13, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > * I'd like to replace the 2nd drive with a 3.5" floppy. I've found a > > Sony HD drive along with a power and plug converter. Knowing that PCs > > use a twisted cable scheme, what things should I be aware of when > > cabling in this new drive? > > The twist in the cable was to not have to worry about jumper settings which > you had to deal with prior to that point. Those drive select jumpers are > marked, depending on the brand, either 0-3 or 1-4 on the drive electronics, > with the first two choices being the ones commonly used (0 and 1, or 1 and > 2). The cable with the twist setup has both drives set to the second choice, > so you probably won't need to worry about messing with anything there, > selecting the drive should be apparent as Kaypros tend to leave the light on > all the time. > > > Will it be supported in some manner by the software? > > Hm, kinda doubtful, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a long time > since I dove into those particular interface specs. > > > Its not a big deal if it turns out to be a 360K 3.5" floppy, as long as its > > readable by my linux box. > > That might just be what you end up with. Do tell us when you find out, I'd > be curious to know... > I've got the 3.5" drive installed and cabled and it seems to be working rather well. I ended up using vice grips to get the screws loose in the drive cage since the heads kept wanting to strip. As I suspected, it really thinks its just a DSDD 5.25" drive. I formatted a disk using mfdisk as an IBM 9 sector DS disk and could read it (as 360K) without problems on my linux box. The drive I ended up using was a chinon FZ-357 which has a jumper for RDY as well as drive select jumpers. It also had the interface pins on the same side as the original disk so I could use the original cable. All of my other 3.5" drives had it on the other side, but the cable wasn't long enough to shift sideways enough. Its weird when it does a format since it counts tracks from 0 to 79 but its really counting cylinder 1 as tracks 0 and 1, etc. However, trying to read a kaypro formatted disk isn't working. It reads 4K and then fails. Anybody used setfdprm on linux to set up reading kaypro iv/10 disks? They look like they're 10 sector (numbered 0x0a - 0x13), rate=2 disks. I'll probably mount the 5.25" DSDD drive in my linux box as well, but it'd be nice to know how to read disks without hassle :) Now for some more questions: * is it possible to run CP/M 3.x on it, or am I limited to 2.2G? * what's the J9 header for? It looks like it has 8 data bits and 8 address bits wired to it (at least according to the schematics I've found). Seems like it'd be possible to hang a home-made IDE interface onto it (if I ever get time/inclination) Thanks to all of the suggestions and advice! Brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:00:48 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:00:48 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 2 Expansion Box Message-ID: Are the three drive expansion boxes for the TRS-80 Model 2 rare or anything? I have one in pretty rough shape that I plan to part out, but I will hold off if the things are seriously in demand. Let me know in a few hours, as I am loading up to go to the junkyard tomorrow. I also have the TRS-80 Mod 2 computer that I need to test. I do not want it. I would like to sell it or trade it, but I really do not want to pack it. -- Will, in 10512 From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Nov 7 11:20:34 2007 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:20:34 -0500 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: <4731E549.1090009@gmail.com> References: <08d2gn20ltu0yh4.231020071137@jvdg.com> <13135db40710230713r63bc269bg43109da5692d5a4e@mail.gmail.com> <4731E549.1090009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1194456034.26972.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 11:18 -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mike Shields wrote: > > If I were to imagine starting over in SGI's, I'd probably get an Indigo2 or > > an Octane2. An Indigo2 is cheap, but heavy if you're going to ship. They're > > basically indestructible. An Octane 2, well equipped, is the best performing > > workstation short of the Fuel ($$$), but still very heavy to ship. Octanes > > have a higher incidence (at least anecdotally - have no statistics) of > > mainboard/frontplane issues, compared to analogous parts in the Indigo2. > > The Fuel isn't *that* expensive. A lot of places are dumping their IRIX > hardware nowadays, since it's no longer supported. And one of those places would be? :-) > > Peace... Sridhar > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:33:30 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:33:30 -0500 Subject: List Issues Message-ID: <4731F6EA.5090702@gmail.com> Did anyone else just get a flood of older unread emails from the list all at once within the last few hours? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:35:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:35:11 -0500 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: <1194456034.26972.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <08d2gn20ltu0yh4.231020071137@jvdg.com> <13135db40710230713r63bc269bg43109da5692d5a4e@mail.gmail.com> <4731E549.1090009@gmail.com> <1194456034.26972.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <4731F74F.50109@gmail.com> David Holland wrote: >>> If I were to imagine starting over in SGI's, I'd probably get an Indigo2 or >>> an Octane2. An Indigo2 is cheap, but heavy if you're going to ship. They're >>> basically indestructible. An Octane 2, well equipped, is the best performing >>> workstation short of the Fuel ($$$), but still very heavy to ship. Octanes >>> have a higher incidence (at least anecdotally - have no statistics) of >>> mainboard/frontplane issues, compared to analogous parts in the Indigo2. >> The Fuel isn't *that* expensive. A lot of places are dumping their IRIX >> hardware nowadays, since it's no longer supported. > > And one of those places would be? :-) None of which I know of personally, but there has been a definite increase in the amount of recent SGI stuff showing up on ebay. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 7 11:37:19 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:37:19 -0700 Subject: SGI Sirius Video Breakout Box -- do you need the i/f board? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:13:46 -0000. <4726773A.1000009@machineroom.info> Message-ID: In article <4726773A.1000009 at machineroom.info>, James writes: > Richard wrote: > > There's one on ebay right now (item 230183969927) complete with the > > cabling and connectors to the chassis. No cables connecting the board > > to the breakout box, though. > > You need the IR GFX set, the sirius card, cables to back panel, cables > to breakout box and the breakout box. The breakout box has some logic > inside so you can't just use the sirius card. In my case, I have everything except the cabling between the Sirius breakout box and the back panel. There was a guy on nekochan.net that had one for sale, but he wanted to charge me $300 + international shipping. I think I know why he still has it for sale after saying it was available over a year ago... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 7 11:38:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:38:09 -0700 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:18:17 -0500. <4731E549.1090009@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4731E549.1090009 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > The Fuel isn't *that* expensive. A lot of places are dumping their IRIX > hardware nowadays, since it's no longer supported. Again, prices are all relative... I see them selling on ebay for like $300 lately. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 7 11:39:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:39:06 -0700 Subject: An old dream come true: Iris Indigo! In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:08:57 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Steven Hirsch writes: > Yuck. Has anyone tried pinging the site owner? You're behind on this thread :-). Yes. No response though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 7 11:40:35 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:40:35 +0000 Subject: List Issues In-Reply-To: <4731F6EA.5090702@gmail.com> References: <4731F6EA.5090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711071740.35159.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Wednesday 07 November 2007 17:33:30 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Did anyone else just get a flood of older unread emails from the list > all at once within the last few hours? > > Peace... Sridhar Yup. Oldest possibly from Friday. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 11:42:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:42:18 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> References: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <4731887A.23335.556A69B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 10:21, ajones wrote: > There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated > than Windows 95. Windows 95 will very comfortably get you TCP/IP, > protected memory, preemptive multitasking[1], and a graphical desktop on > a 486 SX with 8M of RAM. Linux 2.0 with XF86 3.x was a carnival of > swapping on that configuration. Solaris x86 wouldn't even boot. For me, my standard "x86 Work Platform" is MSDOS/Win98 booted to DOS with DOSLFN added. One gets FAT32 partitions, long filename support and direct access to hardware ports that will run on a slow 386 (Anyone know why MSDOS 7.1 doesn't work on a 286?). Type "WIN" and you've got a GUI that will run most Windoze apps, USB, DPMI32 server and networking--and you still keep access to the hardware ports and your real-mode DOS drivers. It's not the most secure setup in the world, but it does most of what I need--even on very slow hardware. And it loads pretty fast, compared to *nix or even the MS NT variants like XP or 2K. 95 is a little too flakey for me and ME has got a number of annoying things that make work more difficult. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 11:43:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:43:41 -0800 Subject: List Issues In-Reply-To: <4731F6EA.5090702@gmail.com> References: <4731F6EA.5090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <473188CD.17961.557EAD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 12:33, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Did anyone else just get a flood of older unread emails from the list > all at once within the last few hours? I was about to ask that myself--yes, I did--including some duplicates of older messages that I know that I've read a week ago. Cheers, Chuck From john at guntersville.net Wed Nov 7 11:43:23 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:43:23 -0600 Subject: List Issues In-Reply-To: <4731F6EA.5090702@gmail.com> References: <4731F6EA.5090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4731F93B.1000705@guntersville.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Did anyone else just get a flood of older unread emails from the list > all at once within the last few hours? > > Peace... Sridhar > > . > Yes... From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:48:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:48:25 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731887A.23335.556A69B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> <4731887A.23335.556A69B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4731FA69.6010405@gmail.com> > On 7 Nov 2007 at 10:21, ajones wrote: >> There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated >> than Windows 95. Windows 95 will very comfortably get you TCP/IP, >> protected memory, preemptive multitasking[1], and a graphical desktop on >> a 486 SX with 8M of RAM. Linux 2.0 with XF86 3.x was a carnival of >> swapping on that configuration. Solaris x86 wouldn't even boot. You have to be very careful saying things like "never". I've had TCP/IP, protected memory and preemptive multitasking on UNIX on machines quite a bit smaller than 8MB. Including an X GUI. I've had those features on machines way smaller than 8MB on non-UNIX machines. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 7 11:51:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:51:51 -0700 Subject: List Issues In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:33:30 -0500. <4731F6EA.5090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4731F6EA.5090702 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Did anyone else just get a flood of older unread emails from the list > all at once within the last few hours? Yep. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 7 11:53:04 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:53:04 -0700 Subject: SGI workstation sequence In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:35:11 -0500. <4731F74F.50109@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4731F74F.50109 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > None of which I know of personally, but there has been a definite > increase in the amount of recent SGI stuff showing up on ebay. dovebid and gov't auction sites, too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 7 11:58:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:58:57 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:48:25 -0500. <4731FA69.6010405@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4731FA69.6010405 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > On 7 Nov 2007 at 10:21, ajones wrote: > >> There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated > >> than Windows 95. Umm... IIRC, Xenix was a unix implementation that didn't even require virtual memory, ran on x86 architectures (386?) and required very little memory; certainly much less than Win96 since Xenix was available in 1986. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 7 12:00:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:00:07 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:42:18 -0800. <4731887A.23335.556A69B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4731887A.23335.556A69B at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > It's not the most secure setup in the > world, [...] That's an understatement. Its not secured *at all*. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 7 11:53:50 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:53:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> References: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <200711071800.NAA12662@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated > than Windows 95. What have you been smoking? V7 ran on a flippin' PDP-11! > Windows 95 will very comfortably get you TCP/IP, protected memory, > preemptive multitasking[1], and a graphical desktop on a 486 SX with > 8M of RAM. I'd hesitate to apply "comfortably" to anything Windows. That aside, older Unix variants would do the same on other hardware with similar or lower amounts of RAM. Ultrix. Real BSD - the kind you got from UCBerkeley. Depending on how liberal your definition of "UNIX" is, QNX may even count. > If Windows 3.1 was the last nail in the coffin for UNIX on the > desktop, Windows 95 was the last shovel of dirt and the weepy obit. It's an awfully lively zombie, then. I run nothing but Unix variants. So do a few of my work colleagues. A bunch more dual-boot Windows and something Unixy, or run one on a virtual machine under the other. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 7 12:00:50 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 13:00:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: An old dream come true: Iris Indigo! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711071802.NAA12692@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> - Does it use any kind of special memory? >> Its my understanding that it uses SIMMS. > Bzzzt! Not so. As was typical for workstations of that vintage, it > seems as if every model produced by SGI used a different form of > proprietary memory. That's not to say they aren't SIMMs, though admittedly in context "uses SIMMs" is awful close to "uses SIMMs of some very common type". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 12:03:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:03:21 -0800 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <47318D69.6974.569F181@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2007 at 20:25, Allison wrote: > Sounds like someone looking for an ASk 6Pak Pro. Do you mean "AST"? No, not really--I don't need all the other glarf; just the memory. There was a plethora of makers of memory expansion boards for the 286. I like the Intel Aboveboards, myself and avoid the Everex versions, for example. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 7 12:04:55 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 13:04:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <0JQN00ATB18NM77E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JQN00ATB18NM77E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200711071807.NAA12767@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] the two wires that are a filliment (heater to some). As I understand it, a filament and heater are not just two different words for the same thing (for a long time I thought they were...). A filament is what this is: the electron emitter is the same thing that is generating the heat through ohmic losses. A heater is a case where the heat generator is not the same thing that is emitting electrons, as in many vacuum tubes: the heater generates heat, which then warms up the (separate) cathode electrode. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 12:25:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:25:50 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <473192AE.23746.57E871D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 11:00, Richard wrote: > That's an understatement. Its not secured *at all*. Well, when I'm not in Windows GUI mode, I don't have networking. An isolated machine is pretty secure... :) Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 7 12:30:05 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 13:30:05 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 2 Expansion Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F807453-D24A-47F1-A19E-E92ACC95293B@neurotica.com> On Nov 7, 2007, at 12:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Are the three drive expansion boxes for the TRS-80 Model 2 rare or > anything? I have one in pretty rough shape that I plan to part out, > but I will hold off if the things are seriously in demand. Let me know > in a few hours, as I am loading up to go to the junkyard tomorrow. > > I also have the TRS-80 Mod 2 computer that I need to test. I do not > want it. I would like to sell it or trade it, but I really do not want > to pack it. "In demand" is subjective, but I was pretty happy to drop $125 for mine 1.5yrs ago. I have seen precisely two of them in the wild in the past decade or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 12:30:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:30:22 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 10:58, Richard wrote: > Umm... IIRC, Xenix was a unix implementation that didn't even require > virtual memory, ran on x86 architectures (386?) and required very > little memory; certainly much less than Win96 since Xenix was > available in 1986. Early Xenix ran on a 286. I don't think it ever ran on anything less. I have an early Microsoft MSDOS 2.0 OEM announcement that talks about eventually unifying Xenix and MSDOS. I guess that goes in the same category as Microsoft OS/2 2.0... Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 12:48:25 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 13:48:25 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 2 Expansion Box In-Reply-To: <4F807453-D24A-47F1-A19E-E92ACC95293B@neurotica.com> References: <4F807453-D24A-47F1-A19E-E92ACC95293B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > "In demand" is subjective, but I was pretty happy to drop $125 for > mine 1.5yrs ago. I have seen precisely two of them in the wild in > the past decade or so. $125 for the expansion box or the computer? I am interested in knowing the demand for the box, as I know there is already some for the computer. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 13:07:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:07:32 -0800 Subject: PC AT ROM Patch? Message-ID: <47319C74.25437.5A4B26E@cclist.sydex.com> I can boot my 10 MHz AT clone with the IBM Version 1 (01/10/84) ROM just fine, but the Version 3 (11/15/85) beeps out a system board error (long-short). I seem to recall that the Version 3 BIOS checked for an 8MHz CPU clock and complained if it was anythng else. I know that the Ver. 2 BIOS checked for a 6MHz clock. Is my memory correct--and does anyone know of a patch? I could do a little digging into the POST code, but I'd rather not duplicate someone else's effort. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 7 13:12:33 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:12:33 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <0JR300EYPCNQARD1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR300EYPCNQARD1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200711071412.33726.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 06 November 2007 10:36, Allison wrote: > The drives I used had the 1-4 jumper like 5.25" floppies so it was a matter > of pin to card edge adaptor, power adaptor If anybody needs these, I have a fair number of 'em on hand that I'm not using (and don't forsee a need for), drop me an email offlist... Also cables with both types of connectors on them, with or without twist. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 7 13:33:46 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:33:46 +0000 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> woodelf wrote: > wayne.smith at charter.net wrote: >> http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX > > Just what is photo 8? It appears to be an RCA COSMAC Microtutor, which by the looks of things is broadly similar to the Popular Electronics "COSMAC Elf"... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 7 13:37:25 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:37:25 +0000 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <00ad01c820fa$025ef6f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 7/11/07 04:52, "Ensor" wrote: > Hi, > >> I have posted some VCFX photos at: >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX > > Some nice photos there, thanks. Yep, I just looked at that Conbrio keyboard and said "want one!" :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Nov 7 13:47:20 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:47:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Umm... IIRC, Xenix was a unix implementation that didn't even require >> virtual memory, ran on x86 architectures (386?) and required very >> little memory; certainly much less than Win96 since Xenix was >> available in 1986. > > Early Xenix ran on a 286. I don't think it ever ran on anything > less. I have an early Microsoft MSDOS 2.0 OEM announcement that > talks about eventually unifying Xenix and MSDOS. I guess that goes > in the same category as Microsoft OS/2 2.0... I learned Microsoft Xenix on a Tandy 6000HD in 1985, which had a 68000 CPU. It also ran on the TRS-80 16B. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 7 13:48:35 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:48:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> from ajones at "Nov 7, 7 10:21:02 am" Message-ID: <200711071948.lA7JmZUB013772@floodgap.com> > If Windows 3.1 was the last nail in the coffin for UNIX on the desktop, > Windows 95 was the last shovel of dirt and the weepy obit. *cough*OS X*cough* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Nasty habits/Here to stay! -- Oingo Boingo --------------------------------- From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Nov 7 14:25:12 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:25:12 -0600 Subject: VCF: 5100 emulator? Message-ID: <47321F28.3080000@pacbell.net> I recall seeing that someone was going to show off their software emulation of the IBM 5100 computer at the VCF that just happened. Did it make an appearance? I just checked the VCF exhibitor list and didn't see it there anymore. Was it retracted? Does anybody know who developed it? I'm quite curious to learn more about it; writing such an emulator was on my long term TODO list, but I'm glad somebody beat me to it, as there are many other projects on that same list. Thanks. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 14:41:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:41:39 -0700 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <47322303.5060109@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > It appears to be an RCA COSMAC Microtutor, which by the looks of things > is broadly similar to the Popular Electronics "COSMAC Elf"... I don't see the CPU. Is that on a plug in board? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 7 14:43:36 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:43:36 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731FA69.6010405@gmail.com> References: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> <4731887A.23335.556A69B@cclist.sydex.com> <4731FA69.6010405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47322378.90302@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/11/2007 17:48, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> On 7 Nov 2007 at 10:21, ajones wrote: >>> There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated >>> than Windows 95. Windows 95 will very comfortably get you TCP/IP, >>> protected memory, preemptive multitasking[1], and a graphical desktop >>> on a 486 SX with 8M of RAM. Linux 2.0 with XF86 3.x was a carnival >>> of swapping on that configuration. Solaris x86 wouldn't even boot. > > You have to be very careful saying things like "never". I've had > TCP/IP, protected memory and preemptive multitasking on UNIX on machines > quite a bit smaller than 8MB. Including an X GUI. Me too. I have a PDP-11 here running UNIX with pre-emptive multitasking, protected memory, TCP/IP, et al. It was common on VAXen too. I also have a 486 laptop running slackware with a 2.4 kernel in 8M. It can run X, but I tend not to, as the display resolution is "not high" and anyway I prefer text mode for the things I use it for (switch setup, SNMP, tcpdump and wireless monitoring, mostly). It works well, and certainly doesn't exhibit "a carnival of swapping". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 14:43:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:43:45 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 14:47, Mike Loewen wrote: > I learned Microsoft Xenix on a Tandy 6000HD in 1985, which had a 68000 > CPU. It also ran on the TRS-80 16B. At one point, I had the Z80 I/O routines listing for the 16B Xenix, courtesy of Microsoft. I didn't hang onto it. We were doing a Xenix port to a 186/286 board where the 186 did all of the I/O. I was given the TRS-80 listing as an implementation guide. But a 68K is a whole lot more CPU than an 8086. One might even argue that it's more CPU than a 286. Cheers, Chuck From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 7 14:58:08 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:58:08 +0100 Subject: Last call : Flexowriter model 2309 to be scrapped. Message-ID: <473226E0.3090801@bluewin.ch> Unless someone takes it off me, a basket case Friden Flexowriter will hit the big smelter in the sky. It is a later model 2309. Location : Zurich Switzerland. Shipping is a no-no. I bought it on ebay for 10$, but it turned out to be more effort to repair than I am willing to invest. BTW the seller compensated me with a nice, functional ASR-33 AND an SWTPC CT1024... Jos From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 7 14:58:36 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:58:36 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:30:22 -0800. <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <473193BE.19835.582AE5C at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Early Xenix ran on a 286. I don't think it ever ran on anything > less. I have an early Microsoft MSDOS 2.0 OEM announcement that > talks about eventually unifying Xenix and MSDOS. I guess that goes > in the same category as Microsoft OS/2 2.0... IIRC, Microsoft bought Xenix from its original vendor, so Xenix predates the MS release. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From grant at stockly.com Wed Nov 7 15:07:22 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:07:22 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JR500EYM844BYA3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR500EYM844BYA3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JR5003T6MRLZ440@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >Welcome to S100. > >I don't have info on tarbel 1011 seris FDC. The schematic on hand I >could comment more. However 8" DD with 2mhz 8080 is very difficult >to do as single density is already pushing the 8080 through some very >tight software loops. I think the crystal on the tarbell has been changed from 4MHz to 2MHz. I do know that one of the failure modes is for the Tarbell to "crash" within a wait state. I read the manual and when it started talking about not using "Active" wait state generation I was given a hint. The tarbell as I received it was using XRDY for wait states. My front panel uses XRDY. When I was developing the Altair kit I found that the 1k memory card would NOT deposit or examine because the PRDY was being driven by the front panel. The 1k memory card would have to basically over power the front panel buffer. This would cause some nice transients too. So this morning I changed the tarbell from XRDY to PRDY and it worked. It has worked fine every time I have tried it since, so maybe I found the 'BUG'. So, WHY do all these old cards use 8T97 type drivers to force the wait line? I guess its only the MITS display board and 1k memory board that drive the wait line regardless of if they are addressed or not. Whats wrong with these guys using open collector parts with a pullup??? I'll report on how robust it is later on. I've had several false starts with this setup... >Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing >errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. I checked that. Grant From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Nov 7 15:16:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:16:57 +0000 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20071107211657.GA1942@usap.gov> On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 07:33:46PM +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >wayne.smith at charter.net wrote: > >>http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX > > > >Just what is photo 8? > > It appears to be an RCA COSMAC Microtutor, which by the looks of things > is broadly similar to the Popular Electronics "COSMAC Elf"... Yes... it's the RCA-badged version. One of the cards for it that I've seen pictures of is a 256 byte memory card (dual 1822/5101). The slots are marked "E", "P", and "M" - I'm guessing that stands for Expansion, Processor, and Memory, since there is no CPU nor RAM on that board. At least it uses widely-available 22/44-pin 0.154" cards (the same style the VIC-20 uses)... so if one had just the COSMAC Microtutor board, it wouldn't be hard to wire up a CPU card and a RAM card. I have lots of 1802 gear, but I've only seen that one in pictures. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Nov-2007 at 21:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.9 F (-48.3 C) Windchill -68.1 F (-55.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.4 kts Grid 310 Barometer 685.7 mb (10414 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Nov 7 15:21:39 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:21:39 -0600 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <47322303.5060109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> <47322303.5060109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47322C63.7030403@pacbell.net> woodelf wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> It appears to be an RCA COSMAC Microtutor, which by the looks of >> things is broadly similar to the Popular Electronics "COSMAC Elf"... > I don't see the CPU. Is that on a plug in board? > > > The page describing the exhibits for vcf 10 explains it: RCA 1800 MICROTUTOR Larry Pezzolo (Palo Alto, CA, United States) The MICROTUTOR preceded the COSMAC "ELF" computer which was very similar in form and function. This one is a very early version that uses the COSMAC 1801 microprocessor, the two chip predecessor to the 1802. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 15:26:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:26:36 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > But a 68K is a whole lot more CPU than an 8086. One might even argue > that it's more CPU than a 286. Make that a 386 and you got a fact.The 68K is 32 bit cpu,none of this 16 bit wantabe's. > Cheers, > Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Nov 7 15:24:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:24:52 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071107212452.GB1942@usap.gov> On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 12:43:45PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But a 68K is a whole lot more CPU than an 8086. One might even argue > that it's more CPU than a 286. I would, but then I've programmed the 68000 and the 286 in assembler, professionally. To hammer this back to the portable serial terminal thread, a 68K-based terminal would be *great*, but unless you wanted to get into graphical emulation (Tektronix, GraphOn, VT240...), overkill for the original scope. I'm personally very fond of the 68000, and have tubes and tubes of the 64-pin DIP variety on the shelf and lots of hardware trace and debugging tools, but compared to an 8051 or a Z-80 or 6502 design, not cost effective. It would be a fun little box, though... and difficult to avoid serious feature creep into a 16/32-bit Micro. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Nov-2007 at 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.8 F (-48.2 C) Windchill -79.1 F (-61.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 325 Barometer 685.7 mb (10414 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 15:29:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:29:52 -0700 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JR5003T6MRLZ440@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR500EYM844BYA3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <0JR5003T6MRLZ440@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <47322E50.3060907@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > So, WHY do all these old cards use 8T97 type drivers to force the wait > line? I guess its only the MITS display board and 1k memory board that > drive the wait line regardless of if they are addressed or not. Whats > wrong with these guys using open collector parts with a pullup??? Tell that to the designers of the PC XT on IRQ's.They wanted to save $$$ and charge more $$$. > I'll report on how robust it is later on. I've had several false starts > with this setup... > Grant > > . > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Nov 7 15:30:15 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:30:15 +0000 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <47322303.5060109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> <47322303.5060109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20071107213015.GA2384@usap.gov> On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 01:41:39PM -0700, woodelf wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > >It appears to be an RCA COSMAC Microtutor, which by the looks of things > >is broadly similar to the Popular Electronics "COSMAC Elf"... > I don't see the CPU. Is that on a plug in board? Yes, I believe so, as is the RAM. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Nov-2007 at 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.8 F (-48.2 C) Windchill -79.1 F (-61.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 325 Barometer 685.7 mb (10414 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 15:40:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:40:44 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <20071107212452.GB1942@usap.gov> References: <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <20071107212452.GB1942@usap.gov> Message-ID: <473230DC.30800@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > It would be a fun little box, though... and difficult to avoid > serious feature creep into a 16/32-bit Micro. You may need a faster CPU than a 8 bitter, if you want to use VGA scan rates. Ben. > -ethan From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Wed Nov 7 15:51:48 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:51:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: SGI Onyx - Three Phase to Two^H^H^H Single Phase conversion In-Reply-To: <470C50D3.8040500@internet1.net> Message-ID: Greetings all; Further to my queries some weeks ago, and list suggestions (in particular Pat Finnegan), I have the answer regarding running my three-phase configured Onyx on a single-phase 220v outlet. I removed the four-wire TwistLock plug end and replaced it with a three-wire stove outlet plug (NEMA10-50R). I connected L1 and L3 to one hot leg of the 220v plug, and L2 to the other, and N to the GND line. Only two of the OLS' (PSUs) come up in this wiring manner, so I removed the one that did not (without removing it the Onyx notices it is there, but not producing juice, and fails self-test). The System Controller comes up, boot arbitration completes and Thunderbirds Are Go. Actually, one of my blowers has kicked the bucket (and, to be fair, the other is pretty grumpy, but eventually spins up) and the Onyx is halting on a BLOWER B FAILURE. But that's another story :) Thanks again for your help. I thought I'd post back and leave this in the archives for any future Onyx suckers in my position. JP Hindin From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 7 15:59:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:59:06 -0600 Subject: Video of Cray 1 and other artifacts... In-Reply-To: <002e01c820b2$ac3bd910$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <002e01c820b2$ac3bd910$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4732352A.1050908@oldskool.org> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....On Saturday I watched Terminator 3.... > > My utmost condolences. > > That's a couple of hours of your life which you'll never get back.... It wasn't nearly as terrible as I thought it would be. I gave it at least one full letter grade for not short-changing the ending (ie. a downbeat ending, the only possible proper outcome). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 7 16:08:30 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:08:30 -0600 Subject: ontopic In-Reply-To: <00b201c820e9$bbc38180$6800a8c0@JWEST> References: <00b201c820e9$bbc38180$6800a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4732375E.8040804@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > reminder.... discussions of environmental issues are not freaking on > topic!! To be fair, when it involves the proper disposal of computer equipment, it is on-topic... (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 16:18:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:18:36 -0700 Subject: ontopic In-Reply-To: <4732375E.8040804@oldskool.org> References: <00b201c820e9$bbc38180$6800a8c0@JWEST> <4732375E.8040804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <473239BC.1030504@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > To be fair, when it involves the proper disposal of computer equipment, > it is on-topic... Be grateful Ethan has no computers for *pickup only* this winter or summer as in his case. :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 7 16:45:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:45:16 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 2 Expansion Box In-Reply-To: References: <4F807453-D24A-47F1-A19E-E92ACC95293B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <18a316025c965f722a5416ac88b692ca@neurotica.com> On Nov 7, 2007, at 1:48 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> "In demand" is subjective, but I was pretty happy to drop $125 for >> mine 1.5yrs ago. I have seen precisely two of them in the wild in >> the past decade or so. > > $125 for the expansion box or the computer? For the three-8"-drive expansion box. > I am interested in knowing the demand for the box, as I know there is > already some for the computer. Understood. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jvdg at sparcpark.net Wed Nov 7 16:47:51 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:47:51 +0100 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 2007-11-07 18:58, Richard wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > >>> On 7 Nov 2007 at 10:21, ajones wrote: >>>> There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated >>>> than Windows 95. > > Umm... IIRC, Xenix was a unix implementation that didn't even require > virtual memory, ran on x86 architectures (386?) and required very > little memory; certainly much less than Win96 since Xenix was > available in 1986. We had it running on a Wyse 286 back in them days. Can't have had more than one, maybe two megabytes of RAM. ,xtG .tsooJ -- John was addicted to placebos until I sent him to a homeless shelter for a week and told him it was a rehab clinic. -- Joost van de Griek From jvdg at sparcpark.net Wed Nov 7 16:49:33 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:49:33 +0100 Subject: An old dream come true: Iris Indigo! In-Reply-To: <200711071802.NAA12692@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 2007-11-07 19:00, der Mouse wrote: >>>> - Does it use any kind of special memory? >>> Its my understanding that it uses SIMMS. >> Bzzzt! Not so. As was typical for workstations of that vintage, it >> seems as if every model produced by SGI used a different form of >> proprietary memory. > > That's not to say they aren't SIMMs, though admittedly in context "uses > SIMMs" is awful close to "uses SIMMs of some very common type". Quite. Although the Indigo (R4000), Indy and Indigo2 all used bog standard 72-pin ECC SIMMs, as has been pointed out several times already (but, apparently, it bears repeating). ,xtG .tsooJ -- If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap? -- Joost van de Griek From james at attfield.co.uk Wed Nov 7 17:00:10 2007 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:00:10 -0000 Subject: Televideo Terminals TS-800A (UK) In-Reply-To: <200710301801.l9UI1Sed071634@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have just been told about the availability FOC of the following: 3-off Televideo TS-800A terminals with keyboards (believed RS-232 and believed serviceable) 2-off IBM Monitors 5153 (condition unknown but I had one a while back and it was serviceable) 2-off IBICO printer calculators 1050 and 1060 (condition unknown) These are headed for the dump unless a home is found fairly quickly. I don't have a need but will gladly put any takers in touch with the owners or in a pinch will collect and store for a short time pending final collection. Sorry, no shipping possible or arrangements outside the UK. Current location is Coventry (UK) but equipment can be relocated to Redditch (UK) or Stourbridge, West Midlands (UK). I don't imagine the current owners will be keen on protracted or complex arrangements as they just want rid so preference is likely to be given to someone willing to take the lot. A chit will need to be signed affirming the kit has been removed so that the owners can substantiate that it has not just been dumped for audit purposes. Any interested parties should email me off-list at james/at/attfield/dot/co/dot/uk. Please be quick - I'm pretty sure it won't be kept for long. Jim This outbound email was scanned by Norton AntiVirus 2007 when transmitted and all reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure that this email was free of current known viruses and other malware when sent. Please be aware that between here and you are an indeterminate number of email relays so you should not rely wholly on this and ensure that you have adequate up-to-date protection against viruses, worms, spyware and trojans etc. The sender can not be held responsible for any undesirable elements or malware in a received email sent by him. Please note that if your reply originates from GOOGLE, HOTMAIL, MSN or YAHOO it may never reach me as these domains are blocked. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 17:01:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:01:30 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4731D34A.29348.67AE66D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 23:47, Joost van de Griek wrote: > We had it running on a Wyse 286 back in them days. Can't have had more than > one, maybe two megabytes of RAM. I still have Xenix for the Wyse 286, complete with the development toolset. Very silly installation that would fail unless "WYSE" was found in the BIOS. Simple enough to patch around. Looks and runs like *nix. Nothing remarkable about it. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 17:07:42 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:07:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <417173.45905.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > It's really that simple? I have some PAL > (presumably) > > units on their way here from OZ. I'd be elated to > find > > out that all I'd need to do is tweak the monitor. > > For monochrome composite video, or separate RGB > (wheter TTL or analogue), > then yes, all you should beed to do is tweak the > monitor. The horizontal > frequencies are close enough that it will proabably > sync anyway, if not, > then a touch on the horizontal frequncy control > (maybe an inductor) will > do it. The vertical hold control will probably need > re-adjusting, but > that's all. Curious where I'd put the inductor... > Of course if the units output PAL colour composite > video it's a bit > harder. Feeding that into an NTSC monitor (even > after the above tweaks) > will get you monochrom output. I've seen NTSC-PAL > converters (simple > colour system converters, they don't change the scan > rates), I assume the > reverse exist too. Maybe that would do the trick. These are presumably composite color PAL units (Australia). Have any idea what would go into a PAL-NTSC converter (how many (roughly) and what type of components)? I'm just curious how complicated something like that would be to construct. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 17:26:53 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:26:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <1194452814.19026.24.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net> <1194452814.19026.24.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <20071107152107.G70308@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Brian Wheeler wrote: > However, trying to read a kaypro formatted disk isn't working. It reads > 4K and then fails. Anybody used setfdprm on linux to set up reading > kaypro iv/10 disks? They look like they're 10 sector (numbered 0x0a - > 0x13), rate=2 disks. Sure that isn't 5K before failure? Notice that side "B" of a disk formatted by Kaypro does NOT have the correct value for "head number" in the sector headers. With a PC (NEC765 type chip), you will have to go below the BIOS (Int13h) for reading those sectors. It is not very hard to do, but can introduce some additional fun, particularly with relatively new machines. > I'll probably mount the 5.25" DSDD drive in my linux box as well, but > it'd be nice to know how to read disks without hassle :) TRY formatting the disk IN KAYPRO FORMAT on the PC. The good news (what little there is) is that the Kaypro (WD type chip) although it puts the wrong value for "head number" in the sector headers, does not object to finding the correct value there. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 7 17:26:50 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:26:50 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2007 3:39 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > So... how about hooking straight to the TTL RGB outputs of the vintage > > machines and somehow sampling lines of data into the PC for display in a > > window (with appropriate scaling in software as/when necessary so that > > the image more or less fills the PC display)? > > Video capture of 9-pin TTL RGB (such as that used by IBM CGA, Commodore > C64, etc.) is something that I have been trying to do for a very long > time, without appreciable success. I even tracked down an old scan > converter that claimed to convert TTL RGB to NTSC so I could grab it > with a capture card turned out to not work (although it's possible the > scan converter was broken). I've had luck with converting the RGB to VGA and then converting the VGA to NTSC using both this sort of device (http://www.genao.com/converters.htm) and this (http://www.converters.tv/products/cga_to_vga/425.html (Warning, expensive)) Not cheap, but when it needs to be done, it needs to be done. converters.tv does have a CGA to NTSC converter that they are offering for 110 AUD (~$100 US) (http://www.converters.tv/signals/cga_to_ntsc.html) Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 7 17:40:39 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:40:39 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4731FA69.6010405@gmail.com> <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2007 10:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Nov 2007 at 10:58, Richard wrote: > > > Umm... IIRC, Xenix was a unix implementation that didn't even require > > virtual memory, ran on x86 architectures (386?) and required very > > little memory; certainly much less than Win96 since Xenix was > > available in 1986. > > Early Xenix ran on a 286. I don't think it ever ran on anything > less. I have, in my posession, a disk set for 8086 Xenix. I have not attempted to boot it as the accompanying scribbled note indicate that it won't work on a machine with a VGA installed, and I haven't bothered to try uninstalling the VGA from one of my pre-286 machines. I doubt that it comes with the development kit, so it's pretty useless except to show that it works. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 7 17:42:16 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:42:16 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2007 1:26 PM, woodelf wrote: > The 68K is 32 bit cpu We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 bit CPU in the 68K line. From tponsford at rnsmte.com Wed Nov 7 18:14:22 2007 From: tponsford at rnsmte.com (tponsford) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:14:22 -0700 Subject: TS03 Message-ID: <473254DE.4030305@rnsmte.com> Hi All Picked up a good lot of pdp stuff at the auction yesterday a Netcom 11/23, and a H960 rack which I've been looking for to put my 11/04 in. As a bonus, the rack came with a TS03 which I've read is a re badged Kennedy 9700, a 9-track tape drive w/ 7" reels. The rack had the expansion Unibus box with the TMB11 interface, Doesn't the TS03 have a pertec interface and if it does, wouldn't a third party emulex or diloq unibus card work? Any advice or gotchas on this tape drive would be appreciated!! Cheers Tom Ponsford From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 7 18:22:41 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:22:41 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <47322378.90302@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> <4731887A.23335.556A69B@cclist.sydex.com> <4731FA69.6010405@gmail.com> <47322378.90302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1194481361.6344.1.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 20:43 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > too. I also have a 486 laptop running slackware with a 2.4 kernel in > 8M. It can run X, but I tend not to, as the display resolution is "not > high" and anyway I prefer text mode for the things I use it for (switch > setup, SNMP, tcpdump and wireless monitoring, mostly). It works well, > and certainly doesn't exhibit "a carnival of swapping". I have a Toshiba Libretto 70CT (which probably is marginally on-topic - it's got to be close to 10 years old, and even if it is a PC it's an interesting one). I run NetBSD on it, and it deals with X quite happily in a whole whopping 32M of RAM. Gordon From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Nov 7 18:28:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:28:50 +0000 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20071108002850.GA10565@usap.gov> On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:42:16PM -0800, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Nov 7, 2007 1:26 PM, woodelf wrote: > > The 68K is 32 bit cpu > > We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 bit > CPU in the 68K line. As will you and I... the MC68020 is unarguably a 32-bit processor, but the MC68000 is much more a 32-bit processor than a 16-bit processor. The external data bus _is_ 16 bits for the MC68000, but the internal register model is 32 bits. The address bus is 24 bits, not 32, but a 16-bit processor like the 80286 or the PDP-11 has 16-bit address registers, and can't access more than 64K without register segments or an MMU or something similar. The MC68000 needs no additional decoding hardware or tricky software to address its full 16M address space (which is the same size address bus as the VAX-11/750, which to all accounts _is_ a 32-bit processor). There's a reason I described the 68000 as a 16/32 processor earlier today... internally it *is* 32 bits. The bus interface is just reduced to save on the pin count, etc. Look at the size of the ALU and the accumulator(s)/data registers, then come back to me. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 8-Nov-2007 at 00:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -52.2 F (-46.8 C) Windchill -71.5 F (-57.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.2 kts Grid 332 Barometer 686.1 mb (10399 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 17:49:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:49:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos In-Reply-To: <47204AAB.4050408@iais.fraunhofer.de> from "Holger Veit" at Oct 25, 7 09:50:03 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell schrieb: > > Actually, it's TTL chips. IIRC the kits came out in the mid-1970s. > > > > There's a schematic of the logic module in the manual (one of the frw > > pages I can understand, since the manual is in German, but a schematic is > > much the same in any language). There are 3 chips in the module, all with > > Philis-type numbers. An FJH241 (looks like a 7404), FJH151 (7451) and > > FJH231 (7401) > > > Actually, they don't just look like the mentioned 74xx equivalents, they > are almost (FJH241 is rather 5404). I think the difference between 74xx and 54xx is totally irrelevant here. Nobody is going to try to use these Philips educational modules at anything but normal room temperature. Thinking back, I seem to recall one of the modules failed at one point. The AND-OR-Invert chip had died. I replaced it with, I think, a 74LS51 (again, near enough) with no problems at all. > This xxxNNN convention was some European attempt to standardize the > various logic families in the 70s; > I think this came from JEDEC as a joint venture of Siemens, Philips, and > some other vendors). > The idea was basically to have the first letter to describe the logic > family, the second a temperature range or > a sub family (e.g. Z=noise immune logic with 12Vcc), the third a > functional category. The three digit number then > refers to the actual circuit. So, an FLH101 was a TTL (F) with > temperature range 0..70degC (L), and > combinational circuit (H). The number here refers to 4 totem pole NAND-2 > gates -> so this is the well-known 7400. > J in the third place denotes some flip flop or counter, K is a monoflop, > L is a decoder (e.g. 74141, 7445, 7447). > I have to look up the complete convention in some old Siemens data books. I have at least one old Mullard (==Philips :-)) databook containing ICs with these numbers. I'd be interested in seeing the coding, though, I think I have soem 'FCH161' chips in the spares box... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 17:58:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:58:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PERQ Emulator Progress (of sorts)! In-Reply-To: <4726AF10.2010903@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Oct 29, 7 09:12:00 pm Message-ID: [...] > 951). Of course, I obviously still have a ways to go. As evidenced by > the completely garbled text, I have yet to get the PERQ's unique (and > extremely complicated) RasterOp hardware emulated to any significant Good luck, you'll need it :-). The rasterop hardware is conceptually very simple, and practically very complicated. The timing of just about everything is critical, as you must know by now, the machine has a 4-state counter (basically counting through the 4 16-bit words that make up a 'quadword', the memory hardware and video shift registers being 64 bits wide, whereas the path to the CPU is 16 bits wide). It's possible, although not really documented, to do a read-modify-write cycle on a quadword _and the data transfers overlap_ -- IIRC there's a 2 clock delay between them. And that's exactly what the rasterop hardware does. The Rasterop microcode is intrictate to say the least.... I asusme you've read the schematics and the techref. Have you seen the Rasterop microcode? And the filksong? > degree. And after that I have a ton of hardware details to work out. > But this is a major milestone, and I'm so excited that I just had to > share my excitement with someone... I never thought I'd get anywhere > near this far with the emulation, given how complicated the PERQ is. > > And if I've seen so far, it's because I've been standing on the > shoulders of giants. Or one giant, at least -- our own Tony Duell who's > been ever-so-patient with my questioning and who probably knows more > about the PERQ hardware than the original designers did... That much I really doubt... Mind you, even if I say so myself, I think I understnad the hardware fairly well. And I have written microcode... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 18:17:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:17:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711071807.NAA12767@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 7, 7 01:04:55 pm Message-ID: > > > [...] the two wires that are a filliment (heater to some). > > As I understand it, a filament and heater are not just two different > words for the same thing (for a long time I thought they were...). > > A filament is what this is: the electron emitter is the same thing that > is generating the heat through ohmic losses. A heater is a case where > the heat generator is not the same thing that is emitting electrons, as > in many vacuum tubes: the heater generates heat, which then warms up > the (separate) cathode electrode. This may be a UK .vs. US language difference, but to me : A 'filament' is a thin wire, heated electircally. A heater (in a valve) is a particular type of filament A filament that's also the cathode (as here) is a 'directly heated cathode' A filament that heats a separate cathode is called a 'heater'. The result is caleld an 'indirectly heated cathode' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 18:28:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:28:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <417173.45905.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 7, 7 03:07:42 pm Message-ID: > > For monochrome composite video, or separate RGB > > (wheter TTL or analogue), > > then yes, all you should beed to do is tweak the > > monitor. The horizontal > > frequencies are close enough that it will proabably > > sync anyway, if not, > > then a touch on the horizontal frequncy control > > (maybe an inductor) will > > do it. The vertical hold control will probably need > > re-adjusting, but > > that's all. > > Curious where I'd put the inductor... I was refering to the fact that the horizontal hold control might well be an inductor in some older monitors. You shouldn't need to add an inductor anywhere. [...] > > These are presumably composite color PAL units > (Australia). Have any idea what would go into a If you feed that into an NTSC composite monitor and tweak the vertical frequency, you should get a good _monochrome_ pictore. > PAL-NTSC converter (how many (roughly) and what type > of components)? I'm just curious how complicated > something like that would be to construct. Normally you decode the PAL signal to RGB (or at least to the YUV signals) and re-encode as NTSC. If you do the first part, you might as well display the RGB sigals directly, assuming you can find some way to get your monitor to accemt them. The decoder is not that complciated if you use the ICs used in older TV sets (perhaps 3 or 4 chips, cryutal, maybe a delay line, lots of passives). Setting it up can in interesting the first tiem (I speak from expeirence). It's not something I'd recomnend tryign to build unless you have some expeirence with video circuitry. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 18:37:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:37:10 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric J Korpela wrote: > We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 bit > CPU in the 68K line. How does one define 32 bit cpu? I know nothing about the 68020 but I am guessing a 32 bit bus, and some sort of virtual memory. Ben. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Nov 7 18:45:27 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:45:27 -0000 Subject: modern serial terminal References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com><4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com><47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <012001c821a0$a843d1c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the >first 32 bit CPU in the 68K line. Nope, the 68000 was very much a 32-bit processor; just that it had a 16-bit external data bus (just as the 8088 had an 8-bit external data bus). Motorola themselves describe it as a 16/32-bit processor ("ST" ;-)). TTFN - Pete. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 7 18:42:07 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 19:42:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711080046.TAA17342@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 >> bit CPU in the 68K line. > How does one define 32 bit cpu? I know nothing about the 68020 but I > am guessing a 32 bit bus, and some sort of virtual memory. Well, for one thing, the programmer-visible registers are (almost?) all 32 bits wide. 32 bits is the size most operations (add, subtract, shift, etc) operate on. That makes it a 32-bit architecture to me, regardless of what kind of bus it has - even if it were bit-serial, those attributes would make it a 32-bit machine to me. Virtual memory is not, to my mind, either necessary or sufficient for a machine to be a 32-bitter. Indeed, IIRC the 68020 does not have any kind of MMU; when present, that's separate (common, but separate and not necessary). I think the '040 was the first 68k-series CPU to have an on-chip MMU (and if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me!). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 18:48:04 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:48:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> References: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <20071107162045.S70308@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, ajones wrote: > There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated > than Windows 95. Xenix ran on an 8088 XT with 640K. The IBM XT hard disk controller could be jumpered (undocumented) to handle other sizes of drives other than the 412 (10MB). One of those sizes was 26MB, which was just right for a 10MB DOS partition and a 16MB Xenix partition (that was how I found out about the XT hard disk controller's undocumented jumper solder pads) > [1] Yes, Windows 95 had memory protection and preemptive multitasking. Are there multiple definitions of "preemptive"? Or, is "preemptive" a quantitative, rather than qualitative attribute? I would not consider Win95, nor early Mac, to be "preemptive". Even NT4, which is purportedly preemptive has a few two many situations where/when it can not be preempted. For example, when opening a telnet session, it often can NOT be preempted until it gets to the point of success or failure. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 7 18:46:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:46:22 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47325C5E.30802@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <473193BE.19835.582AE5C at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> Early Xenix ran on a 286. I don't think it ever ran on anything >> less. I have an early Microsoft MSDOS 2.0 OEM announcement that >> talks about eventually unifying Xenix and MSDOS. I guess that goes >> in the same category as Microsoft OS/2 2.0... > > IIRC, Microsoft bought Xenix from its original vendor, so Xenix > predates the MS release. Yeah, I think I remember that too. Acorn were working on a port of Xenix for the NS32016 which might have been interesting, but unfortunately it all got canned before it was finished. :-( (I don't think anyone else managed a port to that particular CPU - there never were many machines which used it) cheers Jules From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Nov 7 18:45:14 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:45:14 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <200711072200.lA7M0HXl092434@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711072200.lA7M0HXl092434@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2007, at 2:00 PM, Chuck wrote: > On 7 Nov 2007 at 10:58, Richard wrote: > >> Umm... IIRC, Xenix was a unix implementation that didn't even require >> virtual memory, ran on x86 architectures (386?) and required very >> little memory; certainly much less than Win96 since Xenix was >> available in 1986. > > Early Xenix ran on a 286. I don't think it ever ran on anything > less. I have an early Microsoft MSDOS 2.0 OEM announcement that > talks about eventually unifying Xenix and MSDOS. I guess that goes > in the same category as Microsoft OS/2 2.0... There were versions for Lisa and (not used but seen pictures of) an 8086 version - perhaps on one of the early Altoses. Later versions of Xenix were 286 and up, and later (with XENIX System V 386) 386 and up. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 19:04:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:04:43 -0800 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: <200711071807.NAA12767@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 7, 7 01:04:55 pm, Message-ID: <4731F02B.32079.6EBB646@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2007 at 0:17, Tony Duell wrote: > This may be a UK .vs. US language difference, but to me : > A 'filament' is a thin wire, heated electircally. A heater (in a valve) > is a particular type of filament > > A filament that's also the cathode (as here) is a 'directly heated cathode' > > A filament that heats a separate cathode is called a 'heater'. The result > is caleld an 'indirectly heated cathode' Some of it is context-related in the US, at least. Transformers are said to be "filament transformers" if their intended use is to power the heater. The glow from the heater (indirectly or directly heated cathodes) is usually said to be a "glowing filament". Many older handbooks show basing diagrams with "F F" particularly if it's a directly-heated cathode. The glowing element in a Tungar bulb is usually termed to be the filament. Finally, some call a heater a "filament" and a "cathode" the heated emitting sleeve. It's one of those things wherein what's intended is rarely a mystery. "Plate" for "anode" is common usage here in all but special-purpose devices, such as CRTs. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 19:11:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:11:35 -0800 Subject: PC AT Rom Patch? Message-ID: <4731F1C7.13174.6F1FD64@cclist.sydex.com> To follow up, it seems as if the code at offset 058Dh in the Version 3 PC AT BIOS is the speed-tester. Curiously, it seems not simply to test for an overfast CPU clock, but a slow one also. The timebase for the check is the "refresh" bit (bit 4 of port 61h). Values lying outside of the acceptable range result in doing a 0101h beep. A workable patch would seem to be to insert an unconditional jump at 5BC to 5CB, which would bypass both tests. When I get a chance, I'll burn some ROMs and try it, after recomputing the ROM checksum. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 19:15:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:15:04 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: <200711072200.lA7M0HXl092434@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <4731F298.29049.6F52DD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 16:45, Scott Quinn wrote: > There were versions for Lisa and (not used but seen pictures of) an > 8086 version - perhaps on one of the early Altoses. I seem to remember an Altos 8086 version now that you mention it--so that means that a PC 8088 version was probably available. Thanks, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Wed Nov 7 19:18:23 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:18:23 -0500 Subject: PC AT Rom Patch? In-Reply-To: <4731F1C7.13174.6F1FD64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, if you don't have the BIOS code, I have a ZIP file on my Web site with the code in it. On 11/7/07 8:11 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > To follow up, it seems as if the code at offset 058Dh in the Version > 3 PC AT BIOS is the speed-tester. Curiously, it seems not simply to > test for an overfast CPU clock, but a slow one also. The timebase > for the check is the "refresh" bit (bit 4 of port 61h). Values lying > outside of the acceptable range result in doing a 0101h beep. > > A workable patch would seem to be to insert an unconditional jump at > 5BC to 5CB, which would bypass both tests. When I get a chance, I'll > burn some ROMs and try it, after recomputing the ROM checksum. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 7 19:20:18 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:20:18 -0800 Subject: Unix on 32016 Message-ID: <47326452.3060502@bitsavers.org> > I don't think anyone else managed a port to that particular CPU National ported 4.1 to it. Their version is called Genix. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 19:19:49 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:19:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF: 5100 emulator? In-Reply-To: <47321F28.3080000@pacbell.net> References: <47321F28.3080000@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20071107171917.M70308@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Jim Battle wrote: > I recall seeing that someone was going to show off their software > emulation of the IBM 5100 computer at the VCF that just happened. Now, all that we need is a Jonathan Titor emulator! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 19:25:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:25:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20071107172425.C70308@shell.lmi.net> > > But a 68K is a whole lot more CPU than an 8086. One might even argue > > that it's more CPU than a 286. On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, woodelf wrote: > Make that a 386 and you got a fact.The 68K is 32 bit cpu,none of this > 16 bit wantabe's. How do we DEFINE "a 32 bit CPU"? Would we consider a 386SX to be a "32 bit CPU"? From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Nov 7 19:38:55 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 01:38:55 -0000 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC References: <417173.45905.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014f01c821a8$210d6f10$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > These are presumably composite color PAL units >(Australia). Have any idea what would go into a >PAL-NTSC converter (how many (roughly) and what >type of components)? I vaguely recall from my Apple ][ days, that at least the early (pre-Europlus?) machines were NTSC only. To use them in Europe we had to fit an Apple NTSC->PAL converter card into one of the expansion slots. It wasn't a perfect conversion, but was "good enough". I'm wondering whether the circuit could be modified to convert PAL->NTSC for this application. I remember seeing the circuit diagram in one of the machines' user manuals, so it's probably online somewhere. TTFN - Pete. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 7 19:39:14 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 20:39:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <4731F02B.32079.6EBB646@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711071807.NAA12767@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 7, 7 01:04:55 pm, <4731F02B.32079.6EBB646@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711080143.UAA18096@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Many older handbooks show basing diagrams with "F F" particularly if > it's a directly-heated cathode. At least one databook - the one I use most, which might be where I got the distinction - uses F for directly-heated cathodes ("filaments") and H for the heating element for indirectly-heated cathodes ("heater"). Not that I use any vacuum-tube databook all that often these days. :-/ /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 7 19:43:03 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:43:03 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <473269A7.3000007@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Nov 7, 2007 1:26 PM, woodelf wrote: >> The 68K is 32 bit cpu > > We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 bit > CPU in the 68K line. So what's your thoughts on the 8088? 16-bit registers, 8-bit data path (but with 16-bit addressing). Is it a 16-bit CPU or an 8-bit CPU? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 7 19:45:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:45:24 -0800 Subject: PC AT Rom Patch? In-Reply-To: References: <4731F1C7.13174.6F1FD64@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4731F9B4.16252.710F578@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 20:18, Richard A. Cini wrote: > For what it's worth, if you don't have the BIOS code, I have a ZIP file on > my Web site with the code in it. Thanks; it seems that I've guessed right. Module TEST1.ASM, label C33 (test 11h) doesn't call out 8MHz specifically, but the test says "VERIFY SPEED/REFRESH CLOCK RATES (ERROR = 1 LONG AND 1 SHORT BEEP)" Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Nov 7 19:52:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 01:52:34 -0000 Subject: modern serial terminal References: , <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com><47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <20071107172425.C70308@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <016c01c821aa$08b621d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > How do we DEFINE "a 32 bit CPU"? > Would we consider a 386SX to be a "32 bit CPU"? I don't see any reason why we shouldn't. You might as well ask whether the IBM PC is a 16-bit computer or an 8-bit system? ;-) TTFN - Pete. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 7 19:53:53 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:53:53 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47326C31.8080300@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > I've had luck with converting the RGB to VGA and then converting the > VGA to NTSC using both this sort of device > (http://www.genao.com/converters.htm) and this > (http://www.converters.tv/products/cga_to_vga/425.html (Warning, > expensive)) > > Not cheap, but when it needs to be done, it needs to be done. > > converters.tv does have a CGA to NTSC converter that they are offering > for 110 AUD (~$100 US) > (http://www.converters.tv/signals/cga_to_ntsc.html) Unfortunately both the converters.tv units ignore the "intensity" pin of CGA, which means that only 8 of the 16 colors can be displayed from an IBM CGA card. :-( This is the bit (pun intended) missing from all converters I've come across, unfortunately. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 7 19:57:55 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:57:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: 68k and 32-bit-dom was Re: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <200711080046.TAA17342@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Nov 7, 7 07:42:07 pm" Message-ID: <200711080157.lA81vtSS009308@floodgap.com> > Virtual memory is not, to my mind, either necessary or sufficient for a > machine to be a 32-bitter. Indeed, IIRC the 68020 does not have any > kind of MMU; when present, that's separate (common, but separate and > not necessary). I think the '040 was the first 68k-series CPU to have > an on-chip MMU (and if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me!). Actually, the '030 was the first one. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LET'S GO FORWARD ... INTO THE PAST! ---------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 20:00:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:00:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <4731F298.29049.6F52DD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711072200.lA7M0HXl092434@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4731F298.29049.6F52DD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071107175515.T70308@shell.lmi.net> [Xenix] > > There were versions for Lisa and (not used but seen pictures of) an > > 8086 version - perhaps on one of the early Altoses. > On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I seem to remember an Altos 8086 version now that you mention it--so > that means that a PC 8088 version was probably available. Trust me. There was. At Merritt College, we had one XT with it installed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Nov 7 20:00:23 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:00:23 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <20071107152107.G70308@shell.lmi.net> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net> <1194452814.19026.24.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20071107152107.G70308@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1194487223.14692.3.camel@bender> On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 15:26 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > However, trying to read a kaypro formatted disk isn't working. It reads > > 4K and then fails. Anybody used setfdprm on linux to set up reading > > kaypro iv/10 disks? They look like they're 10 sector (numbered 0x0a - > > 0x13), rate=2 disks. > > Sure that isn't 5K before failure? It hit 4K exactly -- the linux driver started complaining when trying to read sector 9, which meant that 8 worked... > Notice that side "B" of a disk formatted by Kaypro does NOT have the > correct value for "head number" in the sector headers. With a PC (NEC765 > type chip), you will have to go below the BIOS (Int13h) for reading those > sectors. It is not very hard to do, but can introduce some additional > fun, particularly with relatively new machines. > Interesting. I'll look at the setfdprm documentation to see if its possible to fudge the sector number. > > > I'll probably mount the 5.25" DSDD drive in my linux box as well, but > > it'd be nice to know how to read disks without hassle :) > > TRY formatting the disk IN KAYPRO FORMAT on the PC. The good news (what > little there is) is that the Kaypro (WD type chip) although it puts the > wrong value for "head number" in the sector headers, does not object to > finding the correct value there. > nifty. I'll give that a try as well. Brian > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 20:09:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:09:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <016c01c821aa$08b621d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: , <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com><47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <20071107172425.C70308@shell.lmi.net> <016c01c821aa$08b621d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20071107180625.N70308@shell.lmi.net> > Hi, > > How do we DEFINE "a 32 bit CPU"? > > Would we consider a 386SX to be a "32 bit CPU"? > I don't see any reason why we shouldn't. > You might as well ask whether the IBM PC is a 16-bit computer or an 8-bit > system? ;-) Exactly. The choice and wording of the definition will determine whether the 8088 is 8 bit or 16 bit; 8086 meets stricter definitions of 16 bit, and whether the 68000 and 3086SX are 16 bit or 32 bit; 3086DX and 68020 meet stricter definitions of 32 bit. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 20:38:47 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:38:47 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <200711080046.TAA17342@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> <200711080046.TAA17342@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <473276B7.3040309@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > That makes it a 32-bit architecture to me, > regardless of what kind of bus it has - even if it were bit-serial, > those attributes would make it a 32-bit machine to me. Can I sell you a Manchester Baby Clone ... Full 32 bits. Now in solid state. CRT memory optional. :) > Virtual memory is not, to my mind, either necessary or sufficient for a > machine to be a 32-bitter. Indeed, IIRC the 68020 does not have any > kind of MMU; when present, that's separate (common, but separate and > not necessary). I think the '040 was the first 68k-series CPU to have > an on-chip MMU (and if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me!). From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 20:37:08 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:37:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <1194487223.14692.3.camel@bender> References: <1194286420.3251.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <200711051654.34300.rtellason@verizon.net> <1194452814.19026.24.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20071107152107.G70308@shell.lmi.net> <1194487223.14692.3.camel@bender> Message-ID: <20071107183335.Y70308@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Interesting. I'll look at the setfdprm documentation to see if its > possible to fudge the sector number. Of the "C H R N" header fields, "Sector number" is the easiest for programs to handle, even at the BIOS level. > > > I'll probably mount the 5.25" DSDD drive in my linux box as well, but > > > it'd be nice to know how to read disks without hassle :) . . . for various relative values of "hassle" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 20:43:05 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:43:05 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <473269A7.3000007@oldskool.org> References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <473269A7.3000007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <473277B9.8020606@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > So what's your thoughts on the 8088? 16-bit registers, 8-bit data path > (but with 16-bit addressing). Is it a 16-bit CPU or an 8-bit CPU? 8 bit CPU with 16 bit instructions. :( From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 20:50:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:50:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <4731FA69.6010405@gmail.com> <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071107184903.N70308@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Eric J Korpela wrote: > I have, in my posession, a disk set for 8086 Xenix. I have not > attempted to boot it as the accompanying scribbled note indicate that > it won't work on a machine with a VGA installed, and I haven't > bothered to try uninstalling the VGA from one of my pre-286 machines. > I doubt that it comes with the development kit, so it's pretty useless > except to show that it works. I HAD development kit for it - half a dozen additional slipcase binders. College administrators seem to get joy out of discarding irreplaceable stuff. From eightbitguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 7 21:32:12 2007 From: eightbitguy at sbcglobal.net (Atsushi Takahashi) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:32:12 -0800 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <47322C63.7030403@pacbell.net> References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> <47322303.5060109@jetnet.ab.ca> <47322C63.7030403@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1194492732.5756.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 15:21 -0600, Jim Battle wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > >> It appears to be an RCA COSMAC Microtutor, which by the looks of > >> things is broadly similar to the Popular Electronics "COSMAC Elf"... > > I don't see the CPU. Is that on a plug in board? > > > > > > > > The page describing the exhibits for vcf 10 explains it: > > RCA 1800 MICROTUTOR > Larry Pezzolo (Palo Alto, CA, United States) > > The MICROTUTOR preceded the COSMAC "ELF" computer which was very similar > in form and function. This one is a very early version that uses the > COSMAC 1801 microprocessor, the two chip predecessor to the 1802. I overheard the owner describing it to someone else. He said it was an 1801 CPU not an 1802 and is the same as the first CPU chip to fly into space on an amateur radio "satellite." Atsushi From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 7 23:05:47 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:05:47 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <473277B9.8020606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <473269A7.3000007@oldskool.org> <473277B9.8020606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4732992B.9040300@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> So what's your thoughts on the 8088? 16-bit registers, 8-bit data >> path (but with 16-bit addressing). Is it a 16-bit CPU or an 8-bit CPU? > 8 bit CPU with 16 bit instructions. :( I think defining a CPU solely by it's memory interface is missing the forest for the trees. The main purpose of a CPU is to calculate, not move memory. It's a CPU, not an MMU. CPUs should be categorized by their capabilities. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Nov 7 23:08:50 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:08:50 -0800 Subject: Indigo 2 and registered/buffered SIMMs. In-Reply-To: <200711071619.lA7GIwSC086254@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711071619.lA7GIwSC086254@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2007, at 8:19 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Memory for Indigo 2 (IP22) needs to be FPM with ECC. But I couldn't > find anywhere if these SIMMs may be "registered", aka "buffered". > I see quite a few cheap FPM ECC SIMMs for sale, but most of them have > some strange additional chips on them, I guess that means there are > of the buffered kind. Will these modules work in I2? > FPM 36-bit (often called parity). I have seen on the Internet reports that the IP22 gangs them together similar to the way DEC does with some 21164 machines to get ECC, but skimming the documentation for the MC1 and DMUX1 doesn't make reference to this, merely "parity". There are other 72-pin SIMMS (such as the IBM RS/6000 ones) that are ECC, so make sure that you're not trying to use one of these (ECC uses a different pinout). They don't need to be buffered (only 3 banks). Regarding the Indigo: Indigo R3k uses SGI-proprietary IP12 SIMMS (shared with the 4D/30 and /35). Indigo R4k has the same memory controller as IP22 Indigo2, and uses 36-bit 72-pin SIMMs. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 7 23:13:56 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:13:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Alpha Micro Phun Machine Message-ID: <200711080513.lA85DvZw010436@floodgap.com> One line of systems I see very little about on the web or in vintage computing circles are the Alpha Microsystems units (not! DEC! Alpha!~). Now that I have my own Alpha Micro Eagle 300, I've compiled together most of my notes on various models, a primer to AMOS, some software and a link library and put the E300 into the server rack so that a real AMOS/AlphaTCP system can serve it itself. Hopefully this will be useful to other people who have been curious about Alpha Micro boxes. http://ampm.floodgap.com/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismograph. -- Ken Kesey ------------- From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Nov 7 23:25:09 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:25:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Televideo Terminals TS-800A (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Jim Attfield wrote: > 3-off Televideo TS-800A terminals with keyboards (believed RS-232 and > believed serviceable) I've not encountered a TS-800, but I was under the impression that they were diskless workstations for use with something like a TS-806 MMMOST server. I've used 802s and 803s standalone and an 806 as a single-user CP/M machine (go figure), but haven't ever seen an 800. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 00:04:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 01:04:14 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2007, at 7:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> [...] the two wires that are a filliment (heater to some). >> >> As I understand it, a filament and heater are not just two different >> words for the same thing (for a long time I thought they were...). >> >> A filament is what this is: the electron emitter is the same thing >> that >> is generating the heat through ohmic losses. A heater is a case >> where >> the heat generator is not the same thing that is emitting >> electrons, as >> in many vacuum tubes: the heater generates heat, which then warms up >> the (separate) cathode electrode. > > > This may be a UK .vs. US language difference, but to me : > A 'filament' is a thin wire, heated electircally. A heater (in a > valve) > is a particular type of filament > > A filament that's also the cathode (as here) is a 'directly heated > cathode' > > A filament that heats a separate cathode is called a 'heater'. The > result > is caleld an 'indirectly heated cathode' This is the way I learned it, and I'm in the US. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 00:11:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 01:11:01 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4732A875.5020701@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> This may be a UK .vs. US language difference, but to me : >> A 'filament' is a thin wire, heated electircally. A heater (in a valve) >> is a particular type of filament >> >> A filament that's also the cathode (as here) is a 'directly heated >> cathode' >> >> A filament that heats a separate cathode is called a 'heater'. The result >> is caleld an 'indirectly heated cathode' > > This is the way I learned it, and I'm in the US. My own opinion on the subject has been colored by "Star Trek" and "quantum filaments". Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 00:39:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:39:32 -0700 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4732AF24.1090106@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > This is the way I learned it, and I'm in the US. Forget electrcity ... Have a torch heated valve. :) > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 00:39:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 22:39:39 -0800 Subject: Televideo Terminals TS-800A (UK) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <47323EAB.24181.81E5663@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 21:25, Roger Ivie wrote: > I've not encountered a TS-800, but I was under the impression that they were > diskless workstations for use with something like a TS-806 MMMOST > server. According to the Russian televideo.ru site, the TS-800 is a sump pump: http://www.televideo.ru/product.asp?idDepartament=216&idProduct=11357& cas=9 My recollection of the TS-800A was a diskless Z80 workstation, interfaced via RS-422 (IIRC). Cheers, :) Chuck From lee at geekdot.com Thu Nov 8 02:17:22 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 09:17:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) Message-ID: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > There's a reason I described the 68000 as a 16/32 processor earlier > today... internally it *is* 32 bits. The bus interface is just reduced > to save on the pin count, etc. > Look at the size of the ALU and the accumulator(s)/data registers, then > come back to me. The MC68000 only has a 16 bit ALU and longword operations are done in low/high word sequence. This is why some longword operations take two more cycles than their equivalent word forms. Lee. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 01:34:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:34:24 -0800 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <4732A875.5020701@gmail.com> References: , , <4732A875.5020701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> Sign. Terminology changes over time, particularly in technology. When I was young, I learned about "condensers" and "aerials" from my father. "Breadboarding" a circuit meant pretty much that-- constructing it on a plank of wood, preferably using #14 bare copper wire laid out in neat right angles. By the time I was a teenager, my speech habits had been corrected to say "capacitor" and "antenna". I like the distinction between "filament" and "heater". The latter implies that something is being heated. The former implies a standalone glowing wire. "Indirectly heated" and "directly heated" may be a bit more accurate, but the terms are also cumbrous. And whoever heard of "nanofarads" or "picofarads" anyway? ;) Cheers, Chuck From grant at stockly.com Thu Nov 8 02:35:01 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:35:01 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JR500LVMSEPNLP4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR500LVMSEPNLP4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JR600HRIILND310@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >Changing the crystal would half the data rates making it right for >5.25" floppy. > >One of the modes all the contrllers that use hang mode (wait), is >sector never found. Wrong clock rate will insure that. I was also considering that at 2MHz instead of 4 the FDC controller will be operating close to its limits and may need the wait state. What was happening was probably a missed wait state. >Both work. The logic however uses the 8T97 and tristates it when >not needed (board not addressed) which is a "legal" way to do it >though it seems like more effort. > >Of course using high is active and mixing than with low is active was >a dumb thing too. Even Tristate asserts a better low than a high. The front panel buffer is hard wired on, so the Tarbell was shorting out the panels XRDY. I reviewed the 1k memory card and it does tristate it like you said. My problem with the 1k card way back then was that the MITS documentation puts both on the PRDY line. In my two systems this was no good. The transients would corrupt the bus cycle. This was found when working with an altair laying on a wooden table. It wasn't in a metal case. I never tried putting both on the PRDY line when it was in an enclosure. I imagine it would have worked better in the case since I've never read any errata on it, but I wanted to play it safe. If you want to talk about media abuse...1.4MB disk with the HD hole covered, formatted to 71k : ) One of my problems MIGHT have to do with the 16v and 8v supplies not turning on at the same time. I will have to investigate that more... Thanks, Grant From bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie Thu Nov 8 02:59:16 2007 From: bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie (Brian Foley) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:59:16 +0000 Subject: Unix on 32016 In-Reply-To: <47326452.3060502@bitsavers.org> References: <47326452.3060502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20071108085916.GA30685@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 05:20:18PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > I don't think anyone else managed a port to that particular CPU > > National ported 4.1 to it. Their version is called Genix. There's also NetBSD/pc532, and apparently Minix, Mach and a couple of others: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-pc532/2006/07/24/0000.html http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-pc532/2006/07/25/0000.html Cheers, Brian. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Nov 8 03:08:12 2007 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 09:08:12 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <200711080908.13142.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> I have an Axel Platine terminal that seems to fit all the requirements - except maybe that the terminal emulation for older computers might be a bit lacking. Size of a 'Letter/A4' piece of paper, an inch thick, uses standard PC keyboard/monitor/LCD and uses 8W of power. They can be bought cheaply of EBay (in the UK anyway) Just a thought Mark From cc at corti-net.de Thu Nov 8 03:45:15 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:45:15 +0100 (CET) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > This may be a UK .vs. US language difference, but to me : > A 'filament' is a thin wire, heated electircally. A heater (in a valve) > is a particular type of filament > > A filament that's also the cathode (as here) is a 'directly heated cathode' > > A filament that heats a separate cathode is called a 'heater'. The result > is caleld an 'indirectly heated cathode' Exactly; it's the same in German: "Heizfaden" (heater/filament), "direkt geheizte Katode" (directly heated cathode) and "indirekt geheizte Katode" (indirectly heated cathode). Christian From cc at corti-net.de Thu Nov 8 03:52:01 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:52:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: VCF: 5100 emulator? In-Reply-To: <47321F28.3080000@pacbell.net> References: <47321F28.3080000@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Jim Battle wrote: > I recall seeing that someone was going to show off their software emulation > of the IBM 5100 computer at the VCF that just happened. Did it make an > appearance? I just checked the VCF exhibitor list and didn't see it there > anymore. Was it retracted? Does anybody know who developed it? I'm quite > curious to learn more about it; writing such an emulator was on my long term > TODO list, but I'm glad somebody beat me to it, as there are many other > projects on that same list. Well, I know two people (one of them personally ;-)) who are developing an IBM 5110 emulator. At the moment one of them (the one I know personally) is looking for bugs in the Executable ROS files due to OCR (this is serious!). Christian From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Thu Nov 8 05:18:51 2007 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:48:51 +1030 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <47326C31.8080300@oldskool.org> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: >Eric J Korpela wrote: >> I've had luck with converting the RGB to VGA and then converting the >> VGA to NTSC using both this sort of device >> (http://www.genao.com/converters.htm) and this >> (http://www.converters.tv/products/cga_to_vga/425.html (Warning, >> expensive)) >> >> Not cheap, but when it needs to be done, it needs to be done. >> >> converters.tv does have a CGA to NTSC converter that they are offering >> for 110 AUD (~$100 US) >> (http://www.converters.tv/signals/cga_to_ntsc.html) > >Unfortunately both the converters.tv units ignore the "intensity" pin of >CGA, which means that only 8 of the 16 colors can be displayed from an >IBM CGA card. :-( This is the bit (pun intended) missing from all >converters I've come across, unfortunately. There's a line of chip from Analog Devices, AD273/AD274/AD275 and others, which will convert from RGB to NTSC/PAL. It gives composite and split video outputs. They're in the US$5 range. Perhaps this could be used with my previous circuit that converts TTL to analogue? Alexis. From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Nov 8 06:41:09 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:41:09 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 18 (8088 Xenix) In-Reply-To: <4731F298.29049.6F52DD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: Message-ID: <200711081146.lA8BkSEc011986@hosting.monisys.ca> > I seem to remember an Altos 8086 version now that you mention it--so > that means that a PC 8088 version was probably available. I have Xenix running on one of my Altos's, and also a version running on the Nabu 1600 - both 8086 machines (not 286+). The Nabu port of Xenix uses an external proprietary memory management unit. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Nov 8 06:11:03 2007 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:11:03 +0100 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <20071107162045.S70308@shell.lmi.net> References: <4731D7DE.6030002@bsu.edu> <20071107162045.S70308@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20071108121101.GB13416@thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 04:48:04PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, ajones wrote: > > There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated > > than Windows 95. > > Xenix ran on an 8088 XT with 640K. The IBM XT hard disk controller could > be jumpered (undocumented) to handle other sizes of drives other than the > 412 (10MB). One of those sizes was 26MB, which was just right for a 10MB > DOS partition and a 16MB Xenix partition (that was how I found out about > the XT hard disk controller's undocumented jumper solder pads) > > > > [1] Yes, Windows 95 had memory protection and preemptive multitasking. > > Are there multiple definitions of "preemptive"? > Or, is "preemptive" a quantitative, rather than qualitative attribute? > I would not consider Win95, nor early Mac, to be "preemptive". Old MacOS (before MacOS X) was cooperative multitasking. As was 16 bit Windows. Not sure about Windows95, but I guess at best it was probably a nasty mixed bag. > Even NT4, > which is purportedly preemptive has a few two many situations where/when > it can not be preempted. For example, when opening a telnet session, it > often can NOT be preempted until it gets to the point of success or failure. The last time I had to touch NT4 is almost a year ago, but I do not remember the system grinding to a stop when opening a telnet connection. 'Can not be preempted' means 'no other process gets to run' - and I have a very hard time believing that to be the case for establishing a TCP connection. My personal impression of NT (in part formed by having to program IPC related stuff against the Win32 API) was that deep down, NT is a pretty decent OS, it just got bogged down by stupid ideas tacked on later and buried under a mountain of crap piled on by Microsofts less talented hacks. I'm talking about the kernel, not the userland, mind you - because the user environment is a total desaster in my personal opinion (which admittedly is shaded heavily by being a unix zealot who basically considers X to be a pretty nice environment to run plenty of xterms in). The basic kernel level design looks pretty good and caused quite a sense of dejavu for me[0] - no surprise when one considers who did the original design. And I distinctly remember the scheduler to be preemptive. (Yes, there were plenty of silly ideas later - like moving the GUI code into kernel mode for speeds sake ... *sigh*). Regards, Alex. [0] Heaving read up on VMS internals only months before. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 8 07:28:40 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 05:28:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <20071108121101.GB13416@thangorodrim.de> from Alexander Schreiber at "Nov 8, 7 01:11:03 pm" Message-ID: <200711081328.lA8DSeda009530@floodgap.com> > Not sure about Windows95, but I guess at best it was probably a > nasty mixed bag. Windows 95 was capable of preemptive multitasking in theory. In practice, the USER/GDI subsystem was still 16-bit and access to it was serialized and shared between both 16-bit and 32-bit tasks, meaning a single 16-bit task would effectively degrade the system to cooperative multitasking as the 16-bit task could not be forced to yield control in these critical sections. The WoW Win16 system used in NT and modern Windows finally solved this problem. > > Even NT4, > > which is purportedly preemptive has a few two many situations where/when > > it can not be preempted. For example, when opening a telnet session, it > > often can NOT be preempted until it gets to the point of success or failure. > > The last time I had to touch NT4 is almost a year ago, but I do not > remember the system grinding to a stop when opening a telnet connection. It doesn't. NT4 is actually pretty stable, just slow. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Funk is its own reward. -- George Clinton ---------------------------------- From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Nov 8 07:32:25 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 07:32:25 -0600 Subject: MC68000 "size" In-Reply-To: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <47330FE9.6030901@pacbell.net> Lee Davison wrote: >> There's a reason I described the 68000 as a 16/32 processor earlier >> today... internally it *is* 32 bits. The bus interface is just reduced >> to save on the pin count, etc. > >> Look at the size of the ALU and the accumulator(s)/data registers, then >> come back to me. > > The MC68000 only has a 16 bit ALU and longword operations are done in > low/high word sequence. This is why some longword operations take two > more cycles than their equivalent word forms. > > Lee. This is all a tempest in a teacup. In computer architecture classes, one of the things that is stressed quickly is to separate the consideration of architecture from implementation. The 68000 family was clearly a 32b architecture. Yes, a few instructions fell short of that, but 95% of it was 32b. Implementation is another matter. From where I sit, I wouldn't hesitate to call a 68008 a 32b processor, as the bus interface affects speed, not function. If I took a 68020 and clocked it slowly enough, it would look a whole lot like a 68008 from outside of the computer cabinet. In fact, the 68020 allows for dynamic bus sizing; by controlling a couple pins appropriately, you can also make it use only 8b of the data bus. Does that really affect how you view the machine? Not really; it just is slower. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 09:05:21 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:05:21 -0800 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4732A875.5020701@gmail.com> <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> > And whoever heard of "nanofarads" or "picofarads" anyway? ;)> > micro-microfarads is what I learned. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 09:53:34 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:53:34 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JR500EYM844BYA3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:07:13 -0900 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I'm about to go insane. > >Here is what I have: >-Fake Altair (rock solid in everything but tarbell) >-Tarbel 1011D >-Tarbell 1011A, which SEEMS to be better than the 1011D. >-4xMITS 16MCS 16k memory cards >-5xSEALS 8k SRAM >-2SIO >-MITS Rev0 CPU > >Anyway...it doesn't work at all if I have a 16k memory card and an 8k >memory card. The 1011A works best (gets the furtherest in all >tests). If I'm lucky it asks me how many disks I have! > >It also doesn't work with 3 seals 8k cards. > >When I put in a CompuPro active terminator on the end of the bus, the >computer goes crazy and doesn't do anything. Installing an >"Industrial Micro Systems" terminator from 1980 it changes >operational characteristics, but still doesn't quite do it. > >I had been trying to make the stupid thing work for months, on and off... > >Well, I decided to stop trying to limit the number of cards on the >bus. I put in 5 8k seals cards and the stupid thing boots and runs >commands. Before while loading BDOS it would most of the time report >corrupted or missing sectors. Or just print trash. Now I can run >DISKDMP and programs like that. > >After working flawlessly for a few minutes its back to crazy. I can >single step through the tarbel boot program and see it going crazy... : ( > >I'd like the thing to be rock solid with minimal memory cards. > >Can anyone think of WHY the tarbel card is so much trouble? I burn >EPROMs all day long with this Altair. It takes 3 minutes to burn a >1702 and I've never had one fail! I can also leave it playing music >for all night long with no problems!!! > Welcome to S100. First ANY CARD that uses wait (many disk controllers stall the cpu waiting for data) will tend to corrupt Dram depening on the DRAM card and timing. I found 884MCDs problematic until I converted them to a pin compatable static rams. The S4Ks sorta worked but not with DMA. I don't have info on tarbel 1011 seris FDC. The schematic on hand I could comment more. However 8" DD with 2mhz 8080 is very difficult to do as single density is already pushing the 8080 through some very tight software loops. Of all the cards the SEALs 8k and the PT 8Ks were about the best. Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. Some cards were timing incompatable due to how they decoded status signals and tended to be either sensitive to bus noise or cause bus noise. Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! In general It sounds like the usual problems I had with the Altair prior to retirement. It was always conditionally stable, make a change start over again. It Improved when I replace the CPU one shot clock with an 8224, better still with a WAMCO "quiet mother" backplane and improved more when I went to a Z80 card (NS* ZPB). near the end the only thing stock was the front pannel (even the connecting leads were shortend and extra grounds added). The 8800BT has none of these problems, It has both tarbell and MITS floppy controllers. Allison > >I need help!!! : ( > >Grant From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 13:15:43 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:15:43 -0500 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board Message-ID: <0JR5000OKHGZVWZ0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:03:21 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 3 Nov 2007 at 20:25, Allison wrote: > >> Sounds like someone looking for an ASk 6Pak Pro. > >Do you mean "AST"? Yep. Finally retired the nasty keyboard. > No, not really--I don't need all the other glarf; ;) Well I was hoping.. >just the memory. There was a plethora of makers of memory expansion >boards for the 286. I like the Intel Aboveboards, myself and avoid >the Everex versions, for example. Aboveboard was a good one. I have one paired with with my Intel Inboard386. Allison >Cheers, >Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 13:22:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:22:25 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions Message-ID: <0JR500LIFHS5N9Z3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Kaypro 4/84 questions > From: Brian Wheeler > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:26:54 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 17:54 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> On Monday 05 November 2007 13:13, Brian Wheeler wrote: >> > * I'd like to replace the 2nd drive with a 3.5" floppy. I've found a >> > Sony HD drive along with a power and plug converter. Knowing that PCs >> > use a twisted cable scheme, what things should I be aware of when >> > cabling in this new drive? >> >> The twist in the cable was to not have to worry about jumper settings which >> you had to deal with prior to that point. Those drive select jumpers are >> marked, depending on the brand, either 0-3 or 1-4 on the drive electronics, >> with the first two choices being the ones commonly used (0 and 1, or 1 and >> 2). The cable with the twist setup has both drives set to the second choice, >> so you probably won't need to worry about messing with anything there, >> selecting the drive should be apparent as Kaypros tend to leave the light on >> all the time. >> >> > Will it be supported in some manner by the software? >> >> Hm, kinda doubtful, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a long time >> since I dove into those particular interface specs. >> >> > Its not a big deal if it turns out to be a 360K 3.5" floppy, as long as its >> > readable by my linux box. >> >> That might just be what you end up with. Do tell us when you find out, I'd >> be curious to know... >> > >I've got the 3.5" drive installed and cabled and it seems to be working >rather well. I ended up using vice grips to get the screws loose in the >drive cage since the heads kept wanting to strip. As I suspected, it >really thinks its just a DSDD 5.25" drive. I formatted a disk using >mfdisk as an IBM 9 sector DS disk and could read it (as 360K) without >problems on my linux box. > >The drive I ended up using was a chinon FZ-357 which has a jumper for >RDY as well as drive select jumpers. It also had the interface pins on >the same side as the original disk so I could use the original cable. >All of my other 3.5" drives had it on the other side, but the cable >wasn't long enough to shift sideways enough. > >Its weird when it does a format since it counts tracks from 0 to 79 but >its really counting cylinder 1 as tracks 0 and 1, etc. > >However, trying to read a kaypro formatted disk isn't working. It reads >4K and then fails. Anybody used setfdprm on linux to set up reading >kaypro iv/10 disks? They look like they're 10 sector (numbered 0x0a - >0x13), rate=2 disks. You may have to notify the software of what format is being used. >I'll probably mount the 5.25" DSDD drive in my linux box as well, but >it'd be nice to know how to read disks without hassle :) > >Now for some more questions: > >* is it possible to run CP/M 3.x on it, or am I limited to 2.2G? Yes, but without any banked memory. >* what's the J9 header for? It looks like it has 8 data bits and 8 >address bits wired to it (at least according to the schematics I've >found). Seems like it'd be possible to hang a home-made IDE interface >onto it (if I ever get time/inclination) Its host interface for WD1001HDO HDC, Sorta like IDE save for the board was bigger than the drive, it wasn't integrated, it was 8bit and the registers were slightly differnt. To do IDE with that should be easy as its basiccally the process or bus for IO. There will not be software support (BIOS) unless you do it. Allison > >Thanks to all of the suggestions and advice! > >Brian > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 17:11:59 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:11:59 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JR500LVMSEPNLP4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:07:22 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" , > Pete > > >>Welcome to S100. >> >>I don't have info on tarbel 1011 seris FDC. The schematic on hand I >>could comment more. However 8" DD with 2mhz 8080 is very difficult >>to do as single density is already pushing the 8080 through some very >>tight software loops. > >I think the crystal on the tarbell has been changed from 4MHz to >2MHz. I do know that one of the failure modes is for the Tarbell to >"crash" within a wait state. Changing the crystal would half the data rates making it right for 5.25" floppy. One of the modes all the contrllers that use hang mode (wait), is sector never found. Wrong clock rate will insure that. >I read the manual and when it started talking about not using >"Active" wait state generation I was given a hint. > >The tarbell as I received it was using XRDY for wait states. My >front panel uses XRDY. > >When I was developing the Altair kit I found that the 1k memory card >would NOT deposit or examine because the PRDY was being driven by the >front panel. The 1k memory card would have to basically over power >the front panel buffer. This would cause some nice transients too. > >So this morning I changed the tarbell from XRDY to PRDY and it >worked. It has worked fine every time I have tried it since, so >maybe I found the 'BUG'. It's always Prdy. The 1K card uses it becuse the rams installed were Sllooowwww and wait states were needed. I'd not use that card ever. When using A FDC that asserts wait for syncronization you really don't want memory that insert wait states as the CPU is alreay slow enough and slow memory is a bad thing. >So, WHY do all these old cards use 8T97 type drivers to force the >wait line? I guess its only the MITS display board and 1k memory >board that drive the wait line regardless of if they are addressed or >not. Whats wrong with these guys using open collector parts with a pullup??? Both work. The logic however uses the 8T97 and tristates it when not needed (board not addressed) which is a "legal" way to do it though it seems like more effort. Of course using high is active and mixing than with low is active was a dumb thing too. Even Tristate asserts a better low than a high. >I'll report on how robust it is later on. I've had several false >starts with this setup... > >>Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing >>errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. > >I checked that. Good, keep checking it as those oneshots are not reliable in my book. Allison >Grant From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 17:25:08 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:25:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: An old dream come true: Iris Indigo! In-Reply-To: <200711071802.NAA12692@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200711071802.NAA12692@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, der Mouse wrote: >>>> - Does it use any kind of special memory? >>> Its my understanding that it uses SIMMS. >> Bzzzt! Not so. As was typical for workstations of that vintage, it >> seems as if every model produced by SGI used a different form of >> proprietary memory. > > That's not to say they aren't SIMMs, though admittedly in context "uses > SIMMs" is awful close to "uses SIMMs of some very common type". Yup. I realized after posting that message that 'SIMM' can simply be viewed a general form-factor. However, more commonly it's applied to the 30pin or 72pin PeeCee variety. I've seen SIMM adapters that allow you to stack multiple 30pin modules on a a 72pin socket. Did anyone ever make a converter for any workstations that would support using garden variety memory in, e.g. an older Iris? Steve -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 19:05:03 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:05:03 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <0JR500ALMXOF4ZK5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:48:04 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, ajones wrote: >> There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated >> than Windows 95. > >Xenix ran on an 8088 XT with 640K. The IBM XT hard disk controller could >be jumpered (undocumented) to handle other sizes of drives other than the >412 (10MB). One of those sizes was 26MB, which was just right for a 10MB >DOS partition and a 16MB Xenix partition (that was how I found out about >the XT hard disk controller's undocumented jumper solder pads) > > >> [1] Yes, Windows 95 had memory protection and preemptive multitasking. > >Are there multiple definitions of "preemptive"? >Or, is "preemptive" a quantitative, rather than qualitative attribute? >I would not consider Win95, nor early Mac, to be "preemptive". Even NT4, >which is purportedly preemptive has a few two many situations where/when >it can not be preempted. For example, when opening a telnet session, it >often can NOT be preempted until it gets to the point of success or failure. Time for a topic change. Is that an OS failure or an application failure? As I see it and run it NT is preemtive but applications can block or alter lower priority tasks making it possile to do nasty thing like block keyboard task. I suspect it's legacy plus the tendancy to make forground tasks the higher priortity may have something to do with it. Linux and VMS seem to be clearly preemptive as are a number of other OSs. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 21:01:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 22:01:17 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal Message-ID: <0JR600MQ7324S906@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:43:05 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Jim Leonard wrote: >> So what's your thoughts on the 8088? 16-bit registers, 8-bit data path >> (but with 16-bit addressing). Is it a 16-bit CPU or an 8-bit CPU? >8 bit CPU with 16 bit instructions. :( Both 8088 and 8086 are 16bit cpus, also 80188 and 80186 they differ only in external bus width. That bus width has no programatic effect in that binaries are the same for both. Internal register sizes are same for both flavors. The 68K also had the 68008 a 32bitter that had a narrow data bus. DEC T-11 (PDP-11) also had the option at reset time to configure the bus as 8bit wide or 16bit. The Z280 also had this option. However the T-11 is without question 16bits and the Z280 is 8bit. The 386SLC and 486slc were both 32bit but had a 16bit wide bus for interface convenience. The point is bus width only determins bus bandwidth and performance and is not the say all for "xx width" cpu. Allison From phil at ultimate.com Wed Nov 7 22:09:52 2007 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:09:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Unix on 32016 In-Reply-To: <47326452.3060502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200711080409.lA849qPG029594@ultimate.com> The NS32016 (nee 16032) was the 16-bit bus member of the family the 32032 was nearly identical to the programmer. The later members ('332, '532) were better integrated (on-chip MMU), but not very different. Sequent had NS32016, NS32032 & NS32332 Multiprocessors running DYNIX (BSD 4.2 based). The Symmetric 375 (32016) ran a BSD port (by Bill Jolitz) see http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/symmetric/ The Whitechapel MG-1 (NS32016) ran Genix When I worked at BU we had many Multimaxes (Multimaxen?) which were 32032 (APC), 32332 (DPC) and 32532 (XPC) based -- they had both BSD and SysVr3 ports called Umax 4.2 (and 4.3) and Umax V respectively. My pc532 (ns32532) runs NetBSD (and used to run Minix). The two guys who designed the pc532 did an earlier board (an ISA bus plug-in) that ran some flavor of Un*x. I'm sure I missed a few.... phil From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 8 06:04:47 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 07:04:47 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JR600A6AS7T4TL6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:35:01 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >>Changing the crystal would half the data rates making it right for >>5.25" floppy. >> >>One of the modes all the contrllers that use hang mode (wait), is >>sector never found. Wrong clock rate will insure that. > >I was also considering that at 2MHz instead of 4 the FDC controller >will be operating close to its limits and may need the wait >state. What was happening was probably a missed wait state. More like the data rate for the board was halved 250kbits/sec and the data was never being read. That will hang the system as the FDC is waiting for the data and at the wrong rate it will never arrive. The Clock crystal is used to derive the data rate for reading and writing. >>Both work. The logic however uses the 8T97 and tristates it when >>not needed (board not addressed) which is a "legal" way to do it >>though it seems like more effort. >> >>Of course using high is active and mixing than with low is active was >>a dumb thing too. Even Tristate asserts a better low than a high. > >The front panel buffer is hard wired on, so the Tarbell was shorting >out the panels XRDY. That too. On front pannelless systems thats not an issue. > >I reviewed the 1k memory card and it does tristate it like you >said. My problem with the 1k card way back then was that the MITS >documentation puts both on the PRDY line. In my two systems this was >no good. The transients would corrupt the bus cycle. This was found >when working with an altair laying on a wooden table. It wasn't in a >metal case. I never tried putting both on the PRDY line when it was >in an enclosure. I imagine it would have worked better in the case >since I've never read any errata on it, but I wanted to play it safe. It would ahve worked btter is the rams used wer 600ns rather than 1uS and the wate states never needed. >If you want to talk about media abuse...1.4MB disk with the HD hole >covered, formatted to 71k : ) That works. > >One of my problems MIGHT have to do with the 16v and 8v supplies not >turning on at the same time. I will have to investigate that more... Why do they not turn on at the same time? All the altairs I know of the switch was on the AC side and it all came up soon as AC was applied. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 8 09:13:18 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:13:18 +0000 Subject: Unix on 32016 In-Reply-To: <20071108085916.GA30685@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> References: <47326452.3060502@bitsavers.org> <20071108085916.GA30685@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> Message-ID: <4733278E.30305@yahoo.co.uk> Brian Foley wrote: > On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 05:20:18PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >>> I don't think anyone else managed a port to that particular CPU >> National ported 4.1 to it. Their version is called Genix. > > There's also NetBSD/pc532, and apparently Minix, Mach and a couple of > others: Well Whitechapel had 42nix (and Genix I believe), and I think Tektronix had a version of UTek on their 32016 hardware - it was Xenix I was curious about though, as I suspect an attempt to port that to the ns32k family was rather unique (whilst Xenix seemed to end up running on various high-volume CPUs, I don't think it was so common on the 'fringe' stuff like the ns32k processors) cheers Jules From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Nov 8 09:20:57 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 10:20:57 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4/84 questions In-Reply-To: <0JR500LIFHS5N9Z3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR500LIFHS5N9Z3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1194535257.13414.12.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 14:22 -0500, Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: Kaypro 4/84 questions > > From: Brian Wheeler > > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:26:54 -0500 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 17:54 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> On Monday 05 November 2007 13:13, Brian Wheeler wrote: > >> > * I'd like to replace the 2nd drive with a 3.5" floppy. I've found a > >> > Sony HD drive along with a power and plug converter. Knowing that PCs > >> > use a twisted cable scheme, what things should I be aware of when > >> > cabling in this new drive? > >> > >> The twist in the cable was to not have to worry about jumper settings which > >> you had to deal with prior to that point. Those drive select jumpers are > >> marked, depending on the brand, either 0-3 or 1-4 on the drive electronics, > >> with the first two choices being the ones commonly used (0 and 1, or 1 and > >> 2). The cable with the twist setup has both drives set to the second choice, > >> so you probably won't need to worry about messing with anything there, > >> selecting the drive should be apparent as Kaypros tend to leave the light on > >> all the time. > >> > >> > Will it be supported in some manner by the software? > >> > >> Hm, kinda doubtful, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a long time > >> since I dove into those particular interface specs. > >> > >> > Its not a big deal if it turns out to be a 360K 3.5" floppy, as long as its > >> > readable by my linux box. > >> > >> That might just be what you end up with. Do tell us when you find out, I'd > >> be curious to know... > >> > > > >I've got the 3.5" drive installed and cabled and it seems to be working > >rather well. I ended up using vice grips to get the screws loose in the > >drive cage since the heads kept wanting to strip. As I suspected, it > >really thinks its just a DSDD 5.25" drive. I formatted a disk using > >mfdisk as an IBM 9 sector DS disk and could read it (as 360K) without > >problems on my linux box. > > > >The drive I ended up using was a chinon FZ-357 which has a jumper for > >RDY as well as drive select jumpers. It also had the interface pins on > >the same side as the original disk so I could use the original cable. > >All of my other 3.5" drives had it on the other side, but the cable > >wasn't long enough to shift sideways enough. > > > >Its weird when it does a format since it counts tracks from 0 to 79 but > >its really counting cylinder 1 as tracks 0 and 1, etc. > > > >However, trying to read a kaypro formatted disk isn't working. It reads > >4K and then fails. Anybody used setfdprm on linux to set up reading > >kaypro iv/10 disks? They look like they're 10 sector (numbered 0x0a - > >0x13), rate=2 disks. > > You may have to notify the software of what format is being used. > > > >I'll probably mount the 5.25" DSDD drive in my linux box as well, but > >it'd be nice to know how to read disks without hassle :) > > > >Now for some more questions: > > > >* is it possible to run CP/M 3.x on it, or am I limited to 2.2G? > > Yes, but without any banked memory. > I may give that a try, then. > >* what's the J9 header for? It looks like it has 8 data bits and 8 > >address bits wired to it (at least according to the schematics I've > >found). Seems like it'd be possible to hang a home-made IDE interface > >onto it (if I ever get time/inclination) > > Its host interface for WD1001HDO HDC, Sorta like IDE save for the > board was bigger than the drive, it wasn't integrated, it was 8bit > and the registers were slightly differnt. To do IDE with that > should be easy as its basiccally the process or bus for IO. There > will not be software support (BIOS) unless you do it. > I suspected as much...maybe a good Christmas break project :) > > Allison > > > > >Thanks to all of the suggestions and advice! > > > >Brian > > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 8 09:30:10 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 10:30:10 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711081530.lA8FUDFw063438@billy.ezwind.net> On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:05:21 -0800, dwight elvey wrote: >> From: cclist at sydex.com> > And whoever heard of "nanofarads" or "picofarads" anyway? ;)> > > >micro-microfarads is what I learned. Uncle Sams Misguided Children, taught us Mickey-Mikes. >From the minds of these same military educators came; Bad Boys Our Young Girls But Violet Goes Willingly ..... Get Some Now 0 Black, 1 Brown, 2 Red, 3 Orange, 4 Yellow, 5 Green, 6 Blue, 7 Violet, 8 Gray, 9 White, 5% Gold, 10% Silver, None and the clasic ... Sin = Oscar / Had Cosin = A / Harry Tangent = Old / Ass Back under my rock :) The other Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 10:28:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:28:02 -0500 Subject: TS03 In-Reply-To: <473254DE.4030305@rnsmte.com> References: <473254DE.4030305@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2007, at 7:14 PM, tponsford wrote: > Picked up a good lot of pdp stuff at the auction yesterday a Netcom > 11/23, and a H960 rack which I've been looking for to put my 11/04 in. > As a bonus, the rack came with a TS03 which I've read is a re > badged Kennedy 9700, a 9-track tape drive w/ 7" reels. The rack had > the expansion > Unibus box with the TMB11 interface, Doesn't the TS03 have a pertec > interface and if it does, wouldn't a third party emulex or diloq > unibus > card work? Any advice or gotchas on this tape drive would be > appreciated!! Ahh, the TS03. I used one for a few years in the late 1980s, but sold it, and have regretted it ever since. It has a three-connector (unformatted) Pertec interface, and it should be fine with pretty much any third-party controller which supports that interface. I used mine with a third-party Unibus controller but I don't recall which one; I think it was a Dataram board. If you ever want to get rid of that, let me know. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 8 11:11:00 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 12:11:00 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 MIDI workstation? Message-ID: <47334324.8000303@sbcglobal.net> ISTR a web page I saw the otehr day, where a guy showed how to modify a Commodore 64 to do stereo output, made the case smaller, etc. Does this ring a bell with anyone here? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 11:18:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:18:00 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <0JR500ALMXOF4ZK5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR500ALMXOF4ZK5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2007 at 20:05, Allison wrote: > Is that an OS failure or an application failure? As I see it and run it > NT is preemtive but applications can block or alter lower priority tasks > making it possile to do nasty thing like block keyboard task. I suspect > it's legacy plus the tendancy to make forground tasks the higher priortity > may have something to do with it. Windows 16-bit tasks aren't preemptive, though they could have been made so primarly because a somewhat different mindset is necessary to write effectively for preemptive multitasking. Since the CPU can be yanked away at any time (assuming one doesn't use critical section declarations everywhere), one needs to manage resources so as to have contingency plans for resources being unavailable and deadly embrace situations. 16-bit Windows programs, as a general rule of thumb, don't, so they must be run non-preemptively. I've never really been sold on preemption, which seems like "multitasking for dummies". Instead of designing an application to yield the CPU explicitly, one must declare when the CPU cannot be yielded--and handle resource race conditions (which darned few 32-bit Windows programs do correctly anyway). Certainly if I were designing for a time-critical application and had control over the entire program base, I'd probably employ cooperative multitasking. On many versions of Windows NT, it's possible to have a user mode task with heavy CPU demands derail an attempt to format a floppy, for example. The floppy driver does the bulk of its work in an independent thread that can get messed up by Windows' scheduling-- priority-boosting the thread doesn't seem to help. Some network functions also seem to be able to make things freeze up in NT derivatives. There was, I seem to recall, a Microsoft ad that showed a screenshot of an hourglass cursor and had the blurb of "Something you'll never see with Windows (some preemptive version)". Yeah, right. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 8 11:25:57 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:25:57 +0000 Subject: Commodore 64 MIDI workstation? In-Reply-To: <47334324.8000303@sbcglobal.net> References: <47334324.8000303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200711081725.58040.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Thursday 08 November 2007 17:11:00 Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > ISTR a web page I saw the otehr day, where a guy showed how to modify a > Commodore 64 to do stereo output, made the case smaller, etc. Does this > ring a bell with anyone here? Yes, but I can't find it either ;-) I spotted a Sequential Circuits Model 64 sequencer cart for the Commodore 64 on eBay. It sold for ?70-odd, which I thought was a bit surprising. Anyone here ever used one? Gordon From brain at jbrain.com Thu Nov 8 11:26:05 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:26:05 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 MIDI workstation? In-Reply-To: <47334324.8000303@sbcglobal.net> References: <47334324.8000303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <473346AD.4000909@jbrain.com> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > ISTR a web page I saw the otehr day, where a guy showed how to > modify a Commodore 64 to do stereo output, made the case smaller, etc. > Does this ring a bell with anyone here? > http://www.hackaday.com/2006/10/03/c64-alpha-mod/ ? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 8 11:35:31 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 12:35:31 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 MIDI workstation? In-Reply-To: <473346AD.4000909@jbrain.com> References: <47334324.8000303@sbcglobal.net> <473346AD.4000909@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <473348E3.80404@sbcglobal.net> Jim Brain wrote: > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> ISTR a web page I saw the otehr day, where a guy showed how to >> modify a Commodore 64 to do stereo output, made the case smaller, etc. >> Does this ring a bell with anyone here? >> > http://www.hackaday.com/2006/10/03/c64-alpha-mod/ ? > > Jim > Bingo! We have a winner! Thanks much... The actual project page is here: http://www.bigmech.com/misc/c64mods/enclosure.html -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 11:43:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 10:43:04 -0700 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <47334AA8.50701@jetnet.ab.ca> Lee Davison wrote: >> There's a reason I described the 68000 as a 16/32 processor earlier >> today... internally it *is* 32 bits. The bus interface is just reduced >> to save on the pin count, etc. > >> Look at the size of the ALU and the accumulator(s)/data registers, then >> come back to me. > > The MC68000 only has a 16 bit ALU and longword operations are done in > low/high word sequence. This is why some longword operations take two > more cycles than their equivalent word forms. > > Lee. All this red herring's is about the data path. The address calculations are done 32 bits rather than intel's segment offset 16 bit hack. The real cry is you don't have 32 bit direct addressing[2] on the 68000 so it is not 32bits. What could use it today as modern[1] OS's don't have static addressing anymore? Ben. [1]Something after the 70's not running Fortran. [2]pointer indirect is normal array accessing, not static. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 11:51:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 10:51:11 -0700 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4732A875.5020701@gmail.com> <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47334C8F.2030303@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sign. Terminology changes over time, particularly in technology. > When I was young, I learned about "condensers" and "aerials" from my > father. "Breadboarding" a circuit meant pretty much that-- > constructing it on a plank of wood, preferably using #14 bare copper > wire laid out in neat right angles. > > By the time I was a teenager, my speech habits had been corrected to > say "capacitor" and "antenna". > > I like the distinction between "filament" and "heater". The latter > implies that something is being heated. The former implies a > standalone glowing wire. "Indirectly heated" and "directly heated" > may be a bit more accurate, but the terms are also cumbrous. > > And whoever heard of "nanofarads" or "picofarads" anyway? ;) Throws in femto-farards (fF). f = 10^-16 Used in IC[1] design. > Cheers, > Chuck You know the stuff that goes *boom* when you connect 300 volts bettween Vcc and Ground. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 8 12:42:22 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:42:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 64 MIDI workstation? In-Reply-To: <47334324.8000303@sbcglobal.net> References: <47334324.8000303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > ISTR a web page I saw the otehr day, where a guy showed how to modify a > Commodore 64 to do stereo output, made the case smaller, etc. Does this > ring a bell with anyone here? Here's a page where you can get a board that'll do the stereo mod: http://www.ide64.org/devices.html There are lots of other goodies there too like dual rs232 ports, ethernet, ps/2 interface -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 12:43:42 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:43:42 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711081343.44371.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 07 November 2007 18:42, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Nov 7, 2007 1:26 PM, woodelf wrote: > > The 68K is 32 bit cpu > > We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 bit > CPU in the 68K line. I don't tend to look at things that way, figuring them _all_ to be 32-bit parts, but if you must, then the earlier peecee stuff was still 8-bit as well... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 12:47:48 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:47:48 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711081347.48562.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 07 November 2007 19:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > [...] the two wires that are a filliment (heater to some). > > > > As I understand it, a filament and heater are not just two different > > words for the same thing (for a long time I thought they were...). > > > > A filament is what this is: the electron emitter is the same thing that > > is generating the heat through ohmic losses. A heater is a case where > > the heat generator is not the same thing that is emitting electrons, as > > in many vacuum tubes: the heater generates heat, which then warms up > > the (separate) cathode electrode. > > This may be a UK .vs. US language difference, but to me : > A 'filament' is a thin wire, heated electircally. A heater (in a valve) > is a particular type of filament > > A filament that's also the cathode (as here) is a 'directly heated cathode' > > A filament that heats a separate cathode is called a 'heater'. The result > is caleld an 'indirectly heated cathode' > > -tony That's always been the way I understood it as well, so I don't think we're dealing with any across-the-pond language differences here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 8 12:54:41 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:54:41 -0500 Subject: Televideo Terminals TS-800A (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711081354.41780.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 08 November 2007, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Jim Attfield wrote: > > 3-off Televideo TS-800A terminals with keyboards (believed RS-232 > > and believed serviceable) > > I've not encountered a TS-800, but I was under the impression that > they were diskless workstations for use with something like a TS-806 > MMMOST server. Yes, this is correct. I've been looking for a TS-800 but haven't seen one in several years (though haven't been looking terribly hard), mostly because of some nostalgia I have for the TS800/TS8[01]6 combination. Unfortunately, I'm on the wrong side of the pond though. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 13:00:26 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:00:26 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4732A875.5020701@gmail.com> <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711081400.26830.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 08 November 2007 02:34, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sign. Terminology changes over time, particularly in technology. > When I was young, I learned about "condensers" and "aerials" from my > father. "Breadboarding" a circuit meant pretty much that-- > constructing it on a plank of wood, preferably using #14 bare copper > wire laid out in neat right angles. > > By the time I was a teenager, my speech habits had been corrected to > say "capacitor" and "antenna". > > I like the distinction between "filament" and "heater". The latter > implies that something is being heated. The former implies a > standalone glowing wire. "Indirectly heated" and "directly heated" > may be a bit more accurate, but the terms are also cumbrous. > > And whoever heard of "nanofarads" or "picofarads" anyway? ;) "MMFD"! Usually wax-coated cardboard. :-) Reminds me of a question that got thrown at me during a recent job interview. The guy threw three colors at me and asked me what value resistor that represented, which was fairly trivial to answer. Then he asked me what tolerance it was. I responded that he didn't mention a tolerance band, at which point he told me that there wasn't one. "20%, though I haven't run into one of those in quite a while..." :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 13:11:46 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:11:46 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JR500EYM844BYA3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR500EYM844BYA3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200711081411.46923.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 07 November 2007 10:53, Allison wrote: > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. (Snip) > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! This probably explains a lot why I encounter 9602 (and the LS variant) fairly often in stuff that's otherwise full of the standard 74xx (or LS) parts. I remember back in 1978 trying (unsuccessfully) to make an interface board for a dual cassette deck that we had on trial to work with the H11 system I'd built for this company. The fella on the phone warned me to stay away from the '123 parts for just this sort of reason... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Nov 8 13:18:12 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:18:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711081400.26830.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4732A875.5020701@gmail.com> <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> <200711081400.26830.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200711081921.OAA03300@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Reminds me of a question that got thrown at me during a recent job > interview. The guy threw three colors at me and asked me what value > resistor that represented, [...] http://xkcd.com/227/ /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rickb at bensene.com Thu Nov 8 13:56:02 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:56:02 -0800 Subject: Unix on 32016 In-Reply-To: <47326452.3060502@bitsavers.org> References: <47326452.3060502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > I don't think anyone else managed a port to that particular CPU > > National ported 4.1 to it. Their version is called Genix. > > Tektronix' first entry into the UNIX "deskside" workstation market, the 6205, ran a modified version of Berkeley 4.2 called UTek on the 32032 CPU. The next entry, a smaller, desktop workstation, the 6130, used the 32016. It was a little smaller than an original IBM PC (except a bit deeper), and had a backplane bus that explansion (RAM, SCSI, Serial I/O (2 ports per card), Parallel I/O) could plug into. It had an onboard 10 megabit Ethernet controller (AUI connection) with a TCP/IP stack, two built-in serial ports, and a GPIB port. It had a built in 5 1/4" floppy drive which was used to load miniroot, and install UTek (a terious and slow process with lots of floppies). The machine used an internal ST-412 compatible hard drive, originally Micropolis 20MB drives. Later, Maxtor 80MB and 140MB drives were offered for the 6130. A later version of the 6130, virtually identical except for ST-506 was abandoned in favor of an internal SCSI controller, and internal SCSI drives became available. This was called the 4132. It provided a SCSI port on the back for adding additional SCSI. Instead of a built-in floppy drive, the machine had a QIC-24 5 1/4" half-height 1/4" cartridge (DC-300) tape drive, which had an Adaptec SCSI to QIC-24 converter board attached. This made it MUCH faster for loading up the OS. Internal drives up to 320MB were offered, IIRC. The 4132 was also a little faster than the 6130, due mostly to an improved I/O subsystem. I believe the clock rate of the 32016 was the same. The 4132 did "feel" faster than the 6130, though. UTek was pretty much 4.2bsd compatible. Tek tweeked a few things (for better or worse). However, initially, UTek's had some TCP/IP networking issues which were troublesome -- the network stack didn't understand netmasks properly, making it difficult to attach these machines to subnetted networks. UTek had a number of applications packages, including ANSI BASIC (interpreter), a full C programming environment, a spreadsheet application called 20/20, (all text based), and a few others that I can't recall off the top of my head. A graphics processor was designed, that piggybacked on the CPU board, that allowed X-windows to run (very slowly) on an attached color video monitor, with a special keyboard and mouse. These were very rare, though. Most 6130's and 4132's hooked up to "dumb terminals", or Tek's line of terminals with various levels of intelligence, including the DVST (Direct View Storage Tube) terminals, and later raster-terminals that ranged from glass-TTYs to complex color graphics terminals, all over RS-232 connections at up to 9600 baud. I have a 6130 that needs a little TLC, but I'm sure could be made to work. I also have a fully funtional 4132. I also have a lot of expansion boards (RAM, Serial I/O, SCSI), which work both in the 6132 and 4130, and a few spare power supply units, and even some spare ST-506 Micropolis drives (20 Meg. Drives that have been "tweeked" (long story) to provide 30MB), and miscellaneous other parts. Haven't had a chance to tinker with any of them for a long time, so there'd probably be teething pains in bringing the 4132 back online. Reparing the 6130 is probably something that I won't get to for years. The biggest problem is that the Wangtek QIC-24 tape drives have a tendency for the "rubber" tape drive capstan wheel to turn to goo, rendering the drive useless (and will destory tapes instantly if you put a tape in a drive with such a failure). I have a number of the drives, and all of them have gooey capstan wheels, except the one that is in the 4132 at the moment, which I actually "rebuilt" some time ago when I was able to find a couple of "dead" drives that had good capstan wheels on eBay that I got for very cheap. Today, these are very hard to find. Later, Tektronix abandoned the National 320xx line, and came out with some UNIX workstations based on the Motorola 68020. UTek was tweeked to make it more SysV compatible, and these machines had built-in framebuffers and could run X relatively decently. They could handle more RAM, and had higher I/O bandwidth. As Tektronix' last hurrah in the UNIX workstation marketplace, they moved to the Motorola 88K CPU, in boxes called the "XD88" series. These machines were actually quite ahead of their time -- they were quite fast, had tremendous graphics capabilities, and lots of expansion options. The graphics processor was designed by Tektronix, and I believe (but am not totally sure), that it used another Motorola 88K, as well as some ECL bit-slice technology and very high-speed static RAM for the framebuffer. The board was an intelligent graphics processor, capable of rendering objects posted in display lists, such as circles, arcs, squares, rectangles, triangles, and various other structures without main CPU intervention other than just populating the display list. Fills, bitblts, and other functions were also performed by the graphics processor. Sadly, Tektronix really wasn't a computer company. They didn't try going after Sun, Apollo, or other UNIX / UNIX-like system vendors of the time. Tek's marketing people, who were more focused on test equipment, targeted the earlier machines as hosts for automated test systems using the GPIB interface to talk to Tektronix instrumentation. This way, they could "sell" the workstation as a controller for more Tek instrumentation, which is what the sales force was used to selling. Later, the XD88's were targeted at MechCAD and EDA workstations, but by then, there were a lot of players that were well-established in this space. Because of the Motorol 88K processor, applications had to be found and ported, which proved problematic, and expensive. Tek had some workstations which were better than many of the competitors of the time. The 4132 was faster than the early Sun 3 machines, especially the "big pizza box" units like the 3/50, and though the 4132 didn't generally have X, as a command-like development machine, it was very useful. The C compiler was quite fast, and generated efficient code. A system with 3 Megabytes of RAM ran very comfortably with very little swapping unless you were really beating the heck out of it. It handled multi-users quite nicely. I believe the 4132 could be expanded to up to 7 Megabytes of RAM. Had Tektronix properly realized the marketplace, and targeted areas other than test & measurement with the machines, they may have been successful with them. But, Tek had a very long history of being nothing but a company that sold Test & Measurement equipment, and it was a difficult sell to convince the sales force, who all did VERY WELL selling Tek's oscilloscopes and other test equipment, that selling computer was going to be as lucrative. As such, the machines never really caught on much. I know a lot about these machines because I worked for Tektronix from mid-1977 until late 1990. I actually built the 6130 that I have by buying the parts from Engineering Stock (employees could by parts for anything that Tek made through Engineering Stock for cost+10%) and put it all together myself as a "kit". It was quite an adventure. Great thing was, it ran straight away when I powered it up. It was quite cool to have a "real" UNIX workstation at a time when other people were playing with Apple II's, Commodore & Atari machines, and S100 boxes. I actually put it online as a public-access UNIX system for a time, and also wrote (in ANSI BASIC) a computer bulletin board system that I ram for a time on the machine. Those were the days when I actually had spare time. Those days are LONG gone. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From grant at stockly.com Thu Nov 8 13:54:34 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 10:54:34 -0900 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <0JR70081RE27IG70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 05:09 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >Has anyone bought disks from http://www.athana.com ? > >Anywhere else that has new 32 hard sectored 8" disks for sale? > >Grant How "bad" are NOS disks? Is it worth a little under $10 for backing up "important" stuff? The disks ARE in stock. I didn't ask about any soft sectored disks... I think I am fine for now. People have graciously offered to give me disks, which I didn't expect! : ) Grant ========== Hello Mr. Stockly, Thank you for your inquiry about 8" Diskettes SSDD 32 Hard Sectors. The price is $95.00 Box of 10 plus freight for 1-2 boxes. and $6.75/diskette for 500 ea. bulk with envelope. plus shipping. We accept Visa, MasterCard & American Express. If you have any questions, please let us know. We will be glad to help. From grant at stockly.com Thu Nov 8 14:02:00 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:02:00 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <200711081411.46923.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0JR500EYM844BYA3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200711081411.46923.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0JR700ARPEEMMH30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 10:11 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote: >On Wednesday 07 November 2007 10:53, Allison wrote: > > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing > > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. >(Snip) > > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods > > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! > >This probably explains a lot why I encounter 9602 (and the LS variant) fairly >often in stuff that's otherwise full of the standard 74xx (or LS) parts. > >I remember back in 1978 trying (unsuccessfully) to make an interface >board for >a dual cassette deck that we had on trial to work with the H11 system I'd >built for this company. The fella on the phone warned me to stay away from >the '123 parts for just this sort of reason... Its not the one shots... I installed a Cromenco ZPU card and it also crashes. I really wanted to get this setup working. In my experience, the Altair disk subsystem with a half dozen one shots is more reliable and predictable to the Tarbell (hehehe). And taht experience was with a CPU card that had one shots so out of spec according to the intel data sheets the 8080 should not run. Now I have a CPU card that has been tweaked to have perfect CPU clock timing. Nothing. : ( My next guess is going to be switching the disk drive to run off of power from the Altair. The disk drive is getting about 5.25v from the AT computer power supply and the S-100 boards are regulating their 5v to 4.95v. I really don't think that could be a problem, but I'm willing to investigate anything right now. I am going to give the manual a close look and make sure there aren't Altair specific wiring instructions that were missed. I just can't figure out why it is going crazy! I might have to get out the oscilloscope. I installed all of the boards in a "vintage" Altair with less luck. Grrr... This is the 3rd Tarbell card I've used trying to get something good. The cards are modified by someone, work PERFECT in his IMSAI with one of my reproduction 8080 CPU cards, and mailed to me. He found that he needed a terminator to make it work, so I installed a terminator that he sent me. The terminator only made things worse. Grant From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 14:30:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 12:30:07 -0800 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <0JR70081RE27IG70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net>, <0JR70081RE27IG70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4733014F.20181.B16A391@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2007 at 10:54, Grant Stockly wrote: > How "bad" are NOS disks? Is it worth a little under $10 for backing > up "important" stuff? The disks ARE in stock. I didn't ask about > any soft sectored disks... > > I think I am fine for now. People have graciously offered to give me > disks, which I didn't expect! : ) Well, if it was important, I wouldn't back it up on NOS 8" floppies, unless the manufacturing date was sometime in the last 10 years. This is where you have to ask yourself if the format of the data is more important than the data itself. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 14:33:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 12:33:59 -0800 Subject: Tamper-proof bits In-Reply-To: <0JR70081RE27IG70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net>, <0JR70081RE27IG70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <47330237.16151.B1A2D02@cclist.sydex.com> Referring back to a discussion on getting into equipment with tamper- proof bolts, I note that our favorite cheap Chinese tool store has a sale on a 100 pc. tamper-proof bit set: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91310 Six bucks. Not too bad if you don't use them often. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 14:42:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:42:21 -0500 Subject: Tamper-proof bits In-Reply-To: <47330237.16151.B1A2D02@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net>, <0JR70081RE27IG70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47330237.16151.B1A2D02@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473374AD.7090902@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Referring back to a discussion on getting into equipment with tamper- > proof bolts, I note that our favorite cheap Chinese tool store has a > sale on a 100 pc. tamper-proof bit set: > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91310 > > Six bucks. Not too bad if you don't use them often. My issue with cheap bits is that they don't hold up to even the normal everyday humidity around here. I've never had a problem with bits from a reputable source. Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 8 10:49:20 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:49:20 -0000 Subject: Tamper-proof bits In-Reply-To: <47330237.16151.B1A2D02@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001301c82227$52426110$0e04010a@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Referring back to a discussion on getting into equipment with tamper- > proof bolts, I note that our favorite cheap Chinese tool store has a > sale on a 100 pc. tamper-proof bit set: > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91310 > > Six bucks. Not too bad if you don't use them often. I have that exact set (or maybe a cheap knock-off :-)). It looks cheap, but I've yet to destroy any of the bits (or any of the fasteners I've tried to undo with said bits). FWIW. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.25/1118 - Release Date: 08/11/2007 09:29 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 13:08:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:08:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <47325C5E.30802@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 8, 7 00:46:22 am Message-ID: > Acorn were working on a port of Xenix for the NS32016 which might have been > interesting, but unfortunately it all got canned before it was finished. :-( > (I don't think anyone else managed a port to that particular CPU - there never > were many machines which used it) The Whitechapel MG1 must have orun some unix-like OS (although I doubt it was Zenix), and that machine is certianly 32016-based -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 13:17:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:17:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <4731F02B.32079.6EBB646@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 7, 7 05:04:43 pm Message-ID: > > This may be a UK .vs. US language difference, but to me : > > A 'filament' is a thin wire, heated electircally. A heater (in a valve) > > is a particular type of filament > > > > A filament that's also the cathode (as here) is a 'directly heated cathode' > > > > A filament that heats a separate cathode is called a 'heater'. The result > > is caleld an 'indirectly heated cathode' > > Some of it is context-related in the US, at least. Transformers are > said to be "filament transformers" if their intended use is to power Over here, the term 'Heater Transformer' was common, although 'Filament Transformer' would be understood (and I could well believe the term was used by some companeis) > the heater. The glow from the heater (indirectly or directly heated > cathodes) is usually said to be a "glowing filament". Many older > handbooks show basing diagrams with "F F" particularly if it's a > directly-heated cathode. The glowing element in a Tungar bulb is Sure. That _is_ a filament :-). Some data books use 'F F' for a direcrly-heated cathode and 'H H' for a heater, with 'k' for the cathode itself. Oh, and 'Hct' for Heater centre tap :-) > usually termed to be the filament. OK, it's not thin, but I think it's a filament :-) > > Finally, some call a heater a "filament" and a "cathode" the heated > emitting sleeve. In context, I'd used 'heater' for the hot wire and 'cathode' for the sleeve around it > > It's one of those things wherein what's intended is rarely a mystery. Exactly. If somebody talks about the 'cathode voltage' of an indirectly-heated valve, it's clear they mean the voltage between the emitting sleeve and some reference point/. Whereas 'heater voltage' would normally mean the voltage between the ends of the heater filament. > > "Plate" for "anode" is common usage here in all but special-purpose > devices, such as CRTs. That is not at all common over here. Most old-timers would know what you meant, but it would be taken as an Americanism. Talking about CRTs, I beleieve across the Pond, the electodes are called 'cathode', 'grid 1', 'grid 2'.... 'anode'. Over here they're 'cathode' 'grid'. 'anode 1' (or 'first anode'), 'anode 2' ('second anode')... (the last one, the aquadaq coating inside the flare, connected to the EHT supply, is called the 'final anode' most of the time). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 14:44:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:44:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <473269A7.3000007@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Nov 7, 7 07:43:03 pm Message-ID: > > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > On Nov 7, 2007 1:26 PM, woodelf wrote: > >> The 68K is 32 bit cpu > > > > We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 bit > > CPU in the 68K line. > > So what's your thoughts on the 8088? 16-bit registers, 8-bit data path > (but with 16-bit addressing). Is it a 16-bit CPU or an 8-bit CPU? And how about the Philips P850? The front panel has 16 lights and switches. The registers appear to be 16 bits wide. The I/O bus is 16 bits wide. But the ALU is 8 bits wide, as is the memory bus. The machine does 2 ALU operations in hardware for each apparent 16 bit operation. For an even odder example, consider the HP9810 calculator. It can be considered to be : 1 bit (ALU width for binary operations) 3 bits (Phyiscial width of user program RAM) 4 bits (ALU width for BCD operations) 6 bits (Logical width of user program RAM) 8 bits (physiical width of user data RAM) 16 bits (physical size of registers, ROM width, logical width of data RAM) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 14:49:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:49:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <4732AF24.1090106@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Nov 7, 7 11:39:32 pm Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > This is the way I learned it, and I'm in the US. > Forget electrcity ... Have a torch heated valve. :) I'd love to see you keep that flame burning while having a sufficienltly low gas pressure around the cathode to have a long enough mean free path for the electrons, Not to mention problems caused by the ions geenrated by said flame. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 14:53:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:53:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <47324B80.24200.8507633@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 7, 7 11:34:24 pm Message-ID: > > Sign. Terminology changes over time, particularly in technology. > When I was young, I learned about "condensers" and "aerials" from my > father. "Breadboarding" a circuit meant pretty much that-- > constructing it on a plank of wood, preferably using #14 bare copper > wire laid out in neat right angles. > > By the time I was a teenager, my speech habits had been corrected to > say "capacitor" and "antenna". 'Aerial' is still the common term over here ('antenna' is understood, but sounds wrong). But the only time you'll see the word 'condenser' used is in old books and in one old radio magazine that insistes on using the old terms (including 'cylces per second' for 'hertz'). > > I like the distinction between "filament" and "heater". The latter > implies that something is being heated. The former implies a > standalone glowing wire. "Indirectly heated" and "directly heated" > may be a bit more accurate, but the terms are also cumbrous. They actually refer to subtly differnt things. 'Directly heated' and 'Indirectly heated' refer to the actual cathode -- the thing that emits electrons. 'Filament' and 'Heater' refer to the use made of the glowing thin wire. OK, a 'directly heated cathode' and a 'filament' are much the same thing (as in the indicator tube that started this thread), but 'heater' and 'indirectly heated cathode' are different things. > > And whoever heard of "nanofarads" or "picofarads" anyway? ;) I'm old enough to remember 'micro-micro-farads' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 15:31:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:31:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <200711081411.46923.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Nov 8, 7 02:11:46 pm Message-ID: > > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods > > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! > > This probably explains a lot why I encounter 9602 (and the LS variant) fa= > irly=20 > often in stuff that's otherwise full of the standard 74xx (or LS) parts. > > I remember back in 1978 trying (unsuccessfully) to make an interface boar= > d for=20 > a dual cassette deck that we had on trial to work with the H11 system I'd= > =20 > built for this company. The fella on the phone warned me to stay away fr= > om=20 > the '123 parts for just this sort of reason... I know sevearal people (including myself) who refuse to teach beginners about monostables. By the time they know enough to use them correctly (that is, not to use them when a state machine is more reliable, for example), they know enough to read up on how to use them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 15:33:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:33:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711081400.26830.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Nov 8, 7 02:00:26 pm Message-ID: > Reminds me of a question that got thrown at me during a recent job interv= > iew. =20 > The guy threw three colors at me and asked me what value resistor that=20 > represented, which was fairly trivial to answer. Then he asked me what=20 > tolerance it was. I responded that he didn't mention a tolerance band, = > at=20 > which point he told me that there wasn't one. > > "20%, though I haven't run into one of those in quite a while..." Did he pack a set of colours that could have been a prefered value in the 20% series? I would have been worried if he'd said something like 'Orange, White, Red', since AFAIK 3.9k resistors never made with a 20% tolerance... -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 8 15:44:31 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:44:31 -0800 Subject: An old dream come true: Iris Indigo! In-Reply-To: <200711081742.lA8HgWw1010568@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711081742.lA8HgWw1010568@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5f91d57c2737e07ab622c3ad10e00063@valleyimplants.com> On Nov 8, 2007, at 9:42 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Yup. I realized after posting that message that 'SIMM' can simply be > viewed a general form-factor. However, more commonly it's applied to > the > 30pin or 72pin PeeCee variety. > > I've seen SIMM adapters that allow you to stack multiple 30pin modules > on > a a 72pin socket. Did anyone ever make a converter for any > workstations > that would support using garden variety memory in, e.g. an older Iris? > > Steve Nope, the IP12 SIMMS have an ASIC on board to handle (something semi-undocumented). Looks like the SIMMS are 16-bits wide, too (2 rows of 9 chips, with 2 of the chips a different capacity). Anyone tooling up to make an adaptor might as well go ahead and make the SIMMS and spare the physical install hassles (an adaptor probably wouldn't work in an Indigo). I have some 2MB IP12 SIMMS that I've been mulling over the possibility of putting higher capacity chips on, but I don't know if I have chips to deal with the different-sized ECC/Parity (probably, making a guess here though) components. From marvin at west.net Thu Nov 8 15:59:10 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:59:10 -0800 Subject: VCF News Video Message-ID: <473386AE.C869A92B@west.net> Someone just sent me a link to a C/Net video covering this years VCF: http://www.news.com/1606-2-6217243.html From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Nov 8 16:03:48 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:03:48 +0000 Subject: Unix on 32016 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/11/07 19:56, "Rick Bensene" wrote: [SNIP - Some great information about Tektronix NatSemi 32xxx Workstations] > Those were the days when I > actually had spare time. Those days are LONG gone. Thanks for finding a little to write about the Tek workstations, Rick. Fascinating stuff! Regards, Austin. P.S. This is exactly the kind of post that keeps me subscribed to ClassicCmp - solidly ontopic, well written and informative. Cheers! From cc at corti-net.de Thu Nov 8 16:32:27 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:32:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Over here, the term 'Heater Transformer' was common, although 'Filament The same in German (Heiztransformator); this makes two versus one ;-)) > Talking about CRTs, I beleieve across the Pond, the electodes are called > 'cathode', 'grid 1', 'grid 2'.... 'anode'. Over here they're 'cathode' > 'grid'. 'anode 1' (or 'first anode'), 'anode 2' ('second anode')... (the > last one, the aquadaq coating inside the flare, connected to the EHT > supply, is called the 'final anode' most of the time). Usually the grid is called Wehnelt cylinder because of its inventor and its shape. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Thu Nov 8 16:37:56 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:37:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <200711081343.44371.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <200711081343.44371.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 bit >> CPU in the 68K line. > I don't tend to look at things that way, figuring them _all_ to be 32-bit > parts, but if you must, then the earlier peecee stuff was still 8-bit as > well... And the Z80 is a four bit processor... Christian From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Nov 8 16:54:29 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:54:29 -0600 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <4733014F.20181.B16A391@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net>, <0JR70081RE27IG70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <4733014F.20181.B16A391@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473393A5.6000600@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Nov 2007 at 10:54, Grant Stockly wrote: >> How "bad" are NOS disks? Is it worth a little under $10 for backing >> up "important" stuff? The disks ARE in stock. I didn't ask about >> any soft sectored disks... >> >> I think I am fine for now. People have graciously offered to give me >> disks, which I didn't expect! : ) > > Well, if it was important, I wouldn't back it up on NOS 8" floppies, > unless the manufacturing date was sometime in the last 10 years. > > This is where you have to ask yourself if the format of the data is > more important than the data itself. Chuck, I'm really surprised to hear you say this. Common consensus, including your own voice expressed in previous emails here, is that 25 year old 8" floppies are very reliable, much more so than floppies made in the past 10 years. And that is for floppies that have been used and stored in sub-optimal conditions, often. Having NOS 30 year old floppies should be just fine, I'd think. Now if you wanted to argue that you'd rather trust backups onto virtual disk images as being more reliable than NOS floppies, then I would agree with you. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 17:11:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:11:12 -0800 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <473393A5.6000600@pacbell.net> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net>, <4733014F.20181.B16A391@cclist.sydex.com>, <473393A5.6000600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <47332710.15101.BAA1D58@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2007 at 16:54, Jim Battle wrote: > Having NOS 30 year old floppies should be just fine, I'd think. > > Now if you wanted to argue that you'd rather trust backups onto virtual > disk images as being more reliable than NOS floppies, then I would agree > with you. I wish I could agree with the "30-year-old NOS" stuff, but I've gotten a couple of approximately 20-year-old NOS (still in shrink wrap) boxes of 8" in the last year that have disintegrated in the drive the first time, leaving a nice brown oxide coating layered on the drive heads--and yours truly muttering under his breath. On the other hand, I've had few problems with disks that were written within a couple of years of their manufacture. What could be going on? Could the hermetic sealing of new disks allow the more volatile components to permeate the coating and weaken it? Does actual use have a planishing effect on the media and render it more permanent? I honestly don't know. Perhaps someone has some insight into this phenomenon. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 17:26:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 15:26:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071108152534.R26884@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > sounds wrong). But the only time you'll see the word 'condenser' used is > in old books and in one old radio magazine that insistes on using the old > terms (including 'cylces per second' for 'hertz'). It is still in common usage to refer to the capacitor used in automotive distributors Sorry, Jay From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Nov 8 17:37:16 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 15:37:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <47332710.15101.BAA1D58@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465890.27141.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > What could be going on? Could the hermetic sealing > of new disks > allow the more volatile components to permeate the > coating and weaken > it? Perhaps. But I think it much more likely that the binder formulation was bad. I've heard on this group and elsewhere that Wabash and early 80's pre-"DataLife" Verbatim disks were defective and failed early. Formulations presumably changed over time, and there is certainly an opportunity for defective production lots. If the similar phenomenon in magnetic tape is relevant, heat and moisture accelerate binder breakdown. What brand of disks failed in this way? Was there a part number or other identifier? It would be interesting to collect data on vintage/SKU and brand of disks vs. observations of binder breakdown or successful usage. --Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 17:45:05 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:45:05 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <20071108152534.R26884@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071108152534.R26884@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <34f25d0d3791ebca3a0cf1ec4ff8ced8@neurotica.com> On Nov 8, 2007, at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> sounds wrong). But the only time you'll see the word 'condenser' used >> is >> in old books and in one old radio magazine that insistes on using the >> old >> terms (including 'cylces per second' for 'hertz'). > > It is still in common usage to refer to the capacitor used in > automotive > distributors That's because the automotive industry is clueless. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 8 18:08:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:08:22 +0000 Subject: Oddball hard drive failure... Message-ID: <4733A4F6.3020103@yahoo.co.uk> I've got a Magnetic Peripherals 94211-91 SCSI drive here where the magnets for the head stack seem to have been coated - at least around the edges - with some form of paint. The paint's now begun to flake off, jamming up the head assembly and preventing the drive from seeking properly (sometimes it wouldn't spin up at all, other times it'd spin up, flop the heads around as much as it could, and then power down again) Anyone seen this particular mode of failure before? It's a new one on me... With nothing to lose (after ruling out other possibilities, and I'd already popped the lid on the drive expecting to see the aftermath of a head crash) I removed the top magnet from the head assembly (without disturbing the heads themselves or their pivot point) and cleaned everything out as best I could. I was doing it more for giggles than anything - but I was amazed when, after replacing the magnet, the drive actually powered up, stayed powered up, and was detected by the OS. It's not in particularly good health - I'm about 14MB into the archive process and I've got about 500KB of dead blocks so far. Doubtful I'll be able to get any meaningful data out of whatever filesystems were on it with that level of corruption, but I suppose it'd be silly not to at least try! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 8 18:18:08 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:18:08 +0000 Subject: Unix on 32016 In-Reply-To: References: <47326452.3060502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4733A740.4060308@yahoo.co.uk> Rick Bensene wrote: > As Tektronix' last hurrah in the UNIX workstation marketplace, they > moved to the Motorola 88K CPU, in boxes called the "XD88" series. I've got one - it's a beautiful machine. Sweated blood over it too - when I got it, it was just the base system unit, and the hard disk was hosed. I had to find a keyboard, mouse and display from elsewhere, then reverse-engineer the disk contents so I could rebuild it (slowly!) onto a more healthy drive. I ended up getting gcc onto it, then a few other odds and ends just to show it off (POV, Fractint etc.). It felt very quick to actually use. Unfortunately it's in storage at Bletchley these days - I'd love to ship it to the US with me, but I suspect it'd just be way too heavy :-( I did get contacted by an ex-Tek engineer who'd worked on the firmware for the 3D engine in the high-end XD88 machines; apparently Tek had the fastest 3D engine on the planet for a few short weeks, until SGI came along and blew them out the water :-) I think of all the systems I've owned, that one has to be my favourite... cheers Jules From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 18:32:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:32:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <014f01c821a8$210d6f10$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <15367.74836.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > These are presumably composite color PAL units > >(Australia). Have any idea what would go into a > >PAL-NTSC converter (how many (roughly) and what > >type of components)? > > I vaguely recall from my Apple ][ days, that at > least the early > (pre-Europlus?) machines were NTSC only. To use them > in Europe we had to fit > an Apple NTSC->PAL converter card into one of the > expansion slots. > > It wasn't a perfect conversion, but was "good > enough". > > I'm wondering whether the circuit could be modified > to convert PAL->NTSC for > this application. I remember seeing the circuit > diagram in one of the > machines' user manuals, so it's probably online > somewhere. Right this occurred to me. It seems to me it would make much more sense to modify some passive components (I would assume) inside the box instead of hacking some kind of converter together. But maybe you're right, they'll be NTSC out of the box. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 18:38:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:38:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Alpha Micro Phun Machine In-Reply-To: <200711080513.lA85DvZw010436@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <945132.58455.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> kewell. I want one. --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > One line of systems I see very little about on the > web or in vintage computing > circles are the Alpha Microsystems units (not! DEC! > Alpha!~). Now that I have > my own Alpha Micro Eagle 300, I've compiled together > most of my notes on > various models, a primer to AMOS, some software and > a link library and put > the E300 into the server rack so that a real > AMOS/AlphaTCP system can serve > it itself. > > Hopefully this will be useful to other people who > have been curious about > Alpha Micro boxes. > > http://ampm.floodgap.com/ > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * > www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismograph. > -- Ken Kesey ------------- > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 8 18:52:34 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:52:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Alpha Micro Phun Machine In-Reply-To: <945132.58455.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "Nov 8, 7 04:38:17 pm" Message-ID: <200711090052.lA90qYw7017714@floodgap.com> > > Hopefully this will be useful to other people who > > have been curious about Alpha Micro boxes. > > http://ampm.floodgap.com/ > kewell. I want one. I've always liked them. The Salvation Army used Alpha Micros (my suspicion is the local corps had an AM-2000, based on the year) for their church management software for many years, which is where I got rudimentary experience in AMOS. It's a shame they're not more common, because they're certainly interesting. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How do you explain school to a higher intelligence? -- Elliott in "E.T." --- From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 8 19:18:29 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:18:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Tamper-proof bits In-Reply-To: <47330237.16151.B1A2D02@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JR400CCJ63OBH70@msgmmp-1.gci.net>, <0JR70081RE27IG70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <47330237.16151.B1A2D02@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Referring back to a discussion on getting into equipment with tamper- > proof bolts, I note that our favorite cheap Chinese tool store has a > sale on a 100 pc. tamper-proof bit set: > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91310 > > Six bucks. Not too bad if you don't use them often. The set I have is nearly identical to this one: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93388 It came from MCM electronics 8-10 years ago and I've yet to break any of the bits. If you already have full sets of the other more standard bits (which I did) it works pretty well as a suplemental set. I probably use the tri-wing and pin-type spanner bits more than anything else in the set. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 19:21:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:21:10 -0800 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <465890.27141.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <47332710.15101.BAA1D58@cclist.sydex.com>, <465890.27141.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47334586.23260.C2117B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2007 at 15:37, William Maddox wrote: > What brand of disks failed in this way? Was there a > part number or other identifier? It would be > interesting to collect data on vintage/SKU and brand > of disks vs. observations of binder breakdown or > successful usage. Bill, of the ones I bothered to keep, I've got a box of T?ndy-branded 8-inchers here. Cat no. 26-4906. Still has the price tag on it-- $44.95 (when that was real money). I've got other brands that work just fine; BASF, HP, Dysan. I have to admit to being partial to Dysans. Cheers, Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 8 19:25:52 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:25:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2007, Allison wrote: > Sounds like someone looking for an ASk 6Pak Pro. > > Allison Never used that one myself, but I did use an AST 6pak plus boards in PC/XT systems. I still have at least two of them kicking around somewhere (quite likely still installed in some of my IBM PC or XT systems). Are the docs for these boards still available anywhere? I used to have faxed copies that I got from AST, but those have likely become completely unreadable by now. From john at guntersville.net Thu Nov 8 19:30:47 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:30:47 -0600 Subject: Visual Technologies X terminal Message-ID: <4733B847.1050309@guntersville.net> Is anyone on the list familiar with a Visual Technologies Xbase12 Xterminal? I have two base units but no documentation or software for them. John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 19:49:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:49:29 -0800 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <47334C29.15218.C3B05F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2007 at 19:25, Tothwolf wrote: > Are the docs for these boards still available anywhere? I used to have > faxed copies that I got from AST, but those have likely become completely > unreadable by now. Sigh. Some of my own technical info files, including some FAXed engineering data from Teac have almost completely faded to invisibility. Blueline drawings seem to suffer the same fate. I've got the bluelines for the Integrand S-100 box if anyone can figure out a way to read them. Cheers, Chuck Information is fleeting... From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 19:56:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:56:06 -0800 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <47334DB6.2003.C4114E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2007 at 19:25, Tothwolf wrote: > Are the docs for these boards still available anywhere? I used to have > faxed copies that I got from AST, but those have likely become completely > unreadable by now. Some--here's the one from stason.org: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/io-cards/A-B/AST-RESEARCH-INC-Multi-I-O- card-SIX-PACK-PLUS-CARD.html Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Nov 8 20:55:57 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:55:57 -0500 Subject: 8" disks from athana In-Reply-To: <473393A5.6000600@pacbell.net> References: <4733014F.20181.B16A391@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711090302.lA932HA0029155@hosting.monisys.ca> > I'm really surprised to hear you say this. Common consensus, including > your own voice expressed in previous emails here, is that 25 year old 8" > floppies are very reliable, much more so than floppies made in the past > 10 years. And that is for floppies that have been used and stored in > sub-optimal conditions, often. > > Having NOS 30 year old floppies should be just fine, I'd think. > > Now if you wanted to argue that you'd rather trust backups onto virtual > disk images as being more reliable than NOS floppies, then I would agree > with you. My main concern isn't so much the media (although I wouldn't trust important data to 25 year old media) - it's the the hardware that reads it ... 32 hard sector disks are not going to be easily readable elsewhere, so if the disk system goes "down for the count", you are faced with a tough job to recover the data - having it arcived with a few copies of the data (or even disk images) on CD/DVD and you have a much better chance of being able to access it. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 8 20:07:06 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:07:06 -0600 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <4733C0CA.4050300@mdrconsult.com> Is it worth $150? Just curious, since I saw one today with that price tag on it. Looked to be complete, at least. Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 8 20:08:49 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:08:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <4733C0CA.4050300@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Nov 8, 7 08:07:06 pm" Message-ID: <200711090208.lA928ncX010680@floodgap.com> > Is it worth $150? Just curious, since I saw one today with that > price tag on it. Looked to be complete, at least. Which one? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Watch out, Citizens. Marx's tomb is a communist plot. ---------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 8 20:18:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:18:09 -0700 Subject: Visual Technologies X terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:30:47 -0600. <4733B847.1050309@guntersville.net> Message-ID: In article <4733B847.1050309 at guntersville.net>, "John C. Ellingboe" writes: > Is anyone on the list familiar with a Visual Technologies Xbase12 > Xterminal? I have two base units but no documentation or software for them. Wow, that must be pretty late in their product line. I have a Visual Technologies *serial* graphics terminal, but I didn't know they made X terminals. Unless someone here has something to help you out, I think you might be best off trying to track down someone who worked at the company. Even NCD X terminals (and they were a popular manufacturer of X terminals) are hard to get software for. This is one of those things where just having the hardware isn't good enough; you often need a network environment and appropriate host software in order to boot them up. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 8 20:19:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:19:37 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:07:06 -0600. <4733C0CA.4050300@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <4733C0CA.4050300 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > Is it worth $150? Just curious, since I saw one today with that > price tag on it. Looked to be complete, at least. If its with the real keyboard and not the chiclet keyboard and is in good shape, then I would consider that a fair price, but prices go up and down. They sell on ebay for around that much, but its always the shipping that kills you because the "business PETs" are heavy. Particularly if the 8050 disk drive is included. If its the chiclet keyboard, they were sold in larger numbers and 150 could be a good or bad price depending on condition and extras. YMMV -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 8 20:22:50 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:22:50 -0600 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <200711090208.lA928ncX010680@floodgap.com> References: <200711090208.lA928ncX010680@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4733C47A.50504@mdrconsult.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Is it worth $150? Just curious, since I saw one today with that >> price tag on it. Looked to be complete, at least. > > Which one? I dunno... It looked just like this one? http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=191 Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 8 20:26:50 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:26:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <4733C47A.50504@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Nov 8, 7 08:22:50 pm" Message-ID: <200711090226.lA92Qorl017662@floodgap.com> > > > Is it worth $150? Just curious, since I saw one today with that > > > price tag on it. Looked to be complete, at least. > > Which one? > I dunno... > It looked just like this one? > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=191 For $150?! Buy it now!! Chiclet PETs are murder to use, but anyone who collects Commodores wants one. If you decide you don't like it, I'll guarantee you'll get more than that. If it's the regular keyboard, I would try to deal in the $50 range if it's a 40-column PET, or $75 if it's an 80 (I like 8032s, for example). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary, use words. -- St Francis From jim at photojim.ca Thu Nov 8 20:28:07 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:28:07 -0600 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:07:06 -0600.<4733C0CA.4050300@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <002701c82278$2a150660$09dea8c0@melbourne> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: November 8, 2007 8:20 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Commodore PET > > If its the chiclet keyboard, they were sold in larger numbers > and 150 could be a good or bad price depending on condition > and extras. Most of the chiclet keyboard machines were retrofitted with full-sized keyboards, so the machines with chiclet keyboards are actually very highly collectible, particularly if they work. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 8 20:33:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:33:01 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:22:50 -0600. <4733C47A.50504@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <4733C47A.50504 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > It looked just like this one? > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=191 That's the one with the "chiclet" keyboard. Look for wear on the printed labels on the keys. "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage computers, but not now. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 8 20:37:39 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:37:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Nov 8, 7 07:33:01 pm" Message-ID: <200711090237.lA92bdZP015290@floodgap.com> > "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), > $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) > > But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the > real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage > computers, but not now. FWIW, my Chiclet PET cost me a cool $900. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Miners Refuse To Work After Death --------------------------- From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Nov 8 20:37:52 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:37:52 -0800 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <4733C47A.50504@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <00bf01c82279$87755520$6701a8c0@NFORCE4> Yeah, $150 is a good price for one of those in good shape. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 6:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Commodore PET Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Is it worth $150? Just curious, since I saw one today with that >> price tag on it. Looked to be complete, at least. > > Which one? I dunno... It looked just like this one? http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=191 Doc From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 8 20:41:48 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:41:48 -0800 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: > > Look at the size of the ALU and the accumulator(s)/data registers, then > > come back to me. > > The MC68000 only has a 16 bit ALU and longword operations are done in > low/high word sequence. That's exactly what I was going to say. Because the ALU is 16 bits and the data bus is 16 bit the optimal word size for handling small integers and pointer offsets is 16 bits. When you get to the 68020 the optimal word size for small integers and pointer offsets is 32 bits. When you need to do things fast, the difference is very significant. The 68000 (and the 68010) are 16 bit processors that happen to have 32 bit register groups. The same way the Z80 is an 8 bit processor that happens to have 16 bit register groups and the Z8000 is a 16 bit processor that happens to have 32 bit register groups. The primary difference is that Motorola decided not to make the high word independently addressable which make it look less kludgy. Somehow people are turning this statement into some sort of praise for intel's architecture. It's not. Intel's segmentation scheme on the 8086 and 80286 sucks. But just because the 80286 sucks and it's a 16 bit processor, that doesn't turn the 68000 into a 32 bit processor. It's just a better 16 bit processor. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 8 20:41:48 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:41:48 -0800 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: > > Look at the size of the ALU and the accumulator(s)/data registers, then > > come back to me. > > The MC68000 only has a 16 bit ALU and longword operations are done in > low/high word sequence. That's exactly what I was going to say. Because the ALU is 16 bits and the data bus is 16 bit the optimal word size for handling small integers and pointer offsets is 16 bits. When you get to the 68020 the optimal word size for small integers and pointer offsets is 32 bits. When you need to do things fast, the difference is very significant. The 68000 (and the 68010) are 16 bit processors that happen to have 32 bit register groups. The same way the Z80 is an 8 bit processor that happens to have 16 bit register groups and the Z8000 is a 16 bit processor that happens to have 32 bit register groups. The primary difference is that Motorola decided not to make the high word independently addressable which make it look less kludgy. Somehow people are turning this statement into some sort of praise for intel's architecture. It's not. Intel's segmentation scheme on the 8086 and 80286 sucks. But just because the 80286 sucks and it's a 16 bit processor, that doesn't turn the 68000 into a 32 bit processor. It's just a better 16 bit processor. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 20:44:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:44:40 -0800 Subject: Visual Technologies X terminal In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <47335918.10189.C6D8BA5@cclist.sydex.com> > Is anyone on the list familiar with a Visual Technologies Xbase12 > Xterminal? I have two base units but no documentation or software for them. I found the following squib in the Google cache for Computer Business Review: HIGHER RESOLUTION VISUAL X-TERMINALS 10th October 1990 >From Issue Number: 1529 Visual Technology Inc is following up its new $1,000 X-terminal offering with a line of unbundled colour stations, persuing a strategy similar to the one charted recently by rival Human Design Systems. The new products are compatible with most AT-style keyboards and mice and use the 34020 chip from Texas Instruments. The entry- level Xbase/10 uses a 16MHz 68020 and 32MHz 34020, handling resolutions of 1,024 by 768. The Xbase/11 supports a "megapixel" display, typically 1,152 by 900 resolution. The Xbase/12 can display resolutions of 1,280 by 1,024. Both the 11 and 12 use a 20MHz 68020 and 40MHz 34020. All three have 2Mb standard memory, expandable to 14Mb. They are compliant with SECwindows, Motif, Open Look and XView. Availability is November. The Xbases alone range from $2,500 to $3,500: fully loaded they go from $3,500 to $6,055. pl 72 It sounds pretty spiffy. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 8 20:45:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:45:19 +1300 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <200711090237.lA92bdZP015290@floodgap.com> References: <200711090237.lA92bdZP015290@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20071109024519.GB18690@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 06:37:39PM -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), > > $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) > > > > But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the > > real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage > > computers, but not now. > > FWIW, my Chiclet PET cost me a cool $900. Wow... the last one I got cost $100, but it's been a few years. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -42.5 F (-41.4 C) Windchill -69.1 F (-56.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.0 kts Grid 73 Barometer 690.4 mb (10238 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 20:52:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:52:01 -0800 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com>, Message-ID: <47335AD1.316.C7444E9@cclist.sydex.com> So, keeping this vintage, what size attribute would one assign to a CDC 6000-series PPU? 12-bit words, but 18-bit accumulator. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 8 20:54:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:54:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109024519.GB18690@usap.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Nov 9, 7 03:45:19 pm" Message-ID: <200711090254.lA92sUjW012276@floodgap.com> > > > But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the > > > real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage > > > computers, but not now. > > > > FWIW, my Chiclet PET cost me a cool $900. > > Wow... the last one I got cost $100, but it's been a few years. I got it about a year and a half ago. However, it came with new keycaps in a bag, and it's in very good shape. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "97% of readers say surveys are rubbish" -- The Register ------------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 20:57:49 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:57:49 -0500 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <47335AD1.316.C7444E9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com>, <47335AD1.316.C7444E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4733CCAD.4050403@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, keeping this vintage, what size attribute would one assign to a > CDC 6000-series PPU? 12-bit words, but 18-bit accumulator. Interesting. Does the store operation just truncate the extra bits? Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 8 21:00:43 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:00:43 -0700 Subject: Visual Technologies X terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:44:40 -0800. <47335918.10189.C6D8BA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <47335918.10189.C6D8BA5 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > HIGHER RESOLUTION VISUAL X-TERMINALS > 10th October 1990 Yeah, 1990 would be about the right time for X terminals. > Systems. The new products are compatible with most AT-style keyboards > and mice and use the 34020 chip from Texas Instruments. Nice. I did like the 340x0 chip series! > They are compliant with SECwindows, Motif, Open Look and XView. SECwindows? I think DECwindows is what was intended. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 8 21:07:15 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:07:15 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2007 4:37 PM, woodelf wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > We'll have to agree to disagree on that. MC68020 is the first 32 bit > > CPU in the 68K line. > How does one define 32 bit cpu? I know nothing about the 68020 > but I am guessing a 32 bit bus, and some sort of virtual memory. If it's got one or more 32 bit wide ALU and 32 bit registers and a 32 bit internal data bus it's a 32 bit processor. If a processor has 16 bit registers, 16 bit math and address calculation, and a 16 bit address bus, but it's ALU is only 8 bit and its internal data bus is 8 bits, it's an 8 bit processor. Right? From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 8 21:15:33 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:15:33 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > So what's your thoughts on the 8088? 16-bit registers, 8-bit data path > (but with 16-bit addressing). Is it a 16-bit CPU or an 8-bit CPU? ALU and internal data path are 16 bits. It's essentially an 8086 multiplexed down to an 8 bit external data bus. That makes it a 16 bit processor in my book, albeit a crippled one. For the same reason a MC68008 is a 16 bit processor in the same way that the MC68000 is. The Z80, on the other hand, has an 8 bit ALU and 8 bit internal data path, but has 16 bit registers and 16 bit address math and a 16 bit address bus. That makes it a 8 bit processor. For MC6809, I don't know enough of the internals to make a judgement. I'd guess that it's got an 8 bit ALU and 8 bit internal data paths, but I'm not sure. Eric From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 8 21:17:45 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:17:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel MDS needs home Message-ID: I have an Intel MDS that needs special care. As you may have heard, I was in a car accident at the beginning of last month. The main casualty, except for the car, was an Intel MDS. I offered it to the Computer History Museum and was turned down because they don't have anyone who understands the MDS well enough to attempt to restore it. Please take a look at photos of the machine[1]. I can't really let this go for free because I promised its owner that I would sell it, so please offer something decent. Except for the lid of one chip getting knocked off, the boards all appear to be intact. The CRT is not cracked and there's no apparent evidence of it being breached. If the floppy drive is bad, I have some replacements. The chassis however, is in sorry condition. It's made of a foamy sort of polymer similar to the stuff used in older Sun workstations. The impact of the crash cleaved the chassis into two pieces: the top containing the CRT and floppy drive and the bottom holding the backplane and cards. No keyboard was present to begin with. This owner is the same one who had the Nova 4 I offered here in September. [1] http://frotz.homeunix.org/mds-damage.jpg -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 8 21:20:44 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:20:44 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473269A7.3000007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2007 12:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > 1 bit (ALU width for binary operations) > 3 bits (Phyiscial width of user program RAM) > 4 bits (ALU width for BCD operations) > 6 bits (Logical width of user program RAM) > 8 bits (physiical width of user data RAM) > 16 bits (physical size of registers, ROM width, logical width of data RAM) Does it have a separate ALU for binary and BCD operations, or does it just ignore the upper 3 bits of the BCD ALU in each stage of a binary operation? If so, I'd probably call it a 4 bitter. From john at guntersville.net Thu Nov 8 21:19:14 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:19:14 -0600 Subject: Visual Technologies X terminal In-Reply-To: <47335918.10189.C6D8BA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <47335918.10189.C6D8BA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4733D1B2.4090405@guntersville.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Is anyone on the list familiar with a Visual Technologies Xbase12 >>Xterminal? I have two base units but no documentation or software for them. > > > I found the following squib in the Google cache for Computer Business > Review: > > HIGHER RESOLUTION VISUAL X-TERMINALS > 10th October 1990 >>From Issue Number: 1529 > > Visual Technology Inc is following up its new $1,000 X-terminal > offering with a line of unbundled colour stations, persuing a > strategy similar to the one charted recently by rival Human Design > Systems. The new products are compatible with most AT-style keyboards > and mice and use the 34020 chip from Texas Instruments. The entry- > level Xbase/10 uses a 16MHz 68020 and 32MHz 34020, handling > resolutions of 1,024 by 768. The Xbase/11 supports a "megapixel" > display, typically 1,152 by 900 resolution. The Xbase/12 can display > resolutions of 1,280 by 1,024. Both the 11 and 12 use a 20MHz 68020 > and 40MHz 34020. All three have 2Mb standard memory, expandable to > 14Mb. They are compliant with SECwindows, Motif, Open Look and XView. > Availability is November. The Xbases alone range from $2,500 to > $3,500: fully loaded they go from $3,500 to $6,055. pl 72 > > It sounds pretty spiffy. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I didn't run across that one Chuck, thanks. They do seem to be rather spiffy and use ps2 mouse and keyboard from PCs and will probably drive most of the vga multisync monitors. As Richard mentioned I will need their software and I do have the network to hook them to. They both come up in their setup menu and then want to go out on the net for software. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 8 21:22:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:22:50 -0800 Subject: Architecture vs Implementation Message-ID: <4733D28A.8040002@bitsavers.org> > If a processor has 16 bit registers, 16 bit math and address > calculation, and a 16 bit address bus, but it's ALU is only 8 bit and > its internal data bus is 8 bits, it's an 8 bit processor. Right? wrong -- The 360/30 /40 and /50 are all considered members of the same 32 bit architecture, and have 8, 16 and 32 bit data paths, respectively. An 80386/SX is not considered a 16 bit processor because it has a 16 bit data bus. People are confusing architecture with implementation. Is a PDP-8/S a one bit processor because it implements arithmetic serially? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 8 21:24:10 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:24:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > So what's your thoughts on the 8088? 16-bit registers, 8-bit data path > > (but with 16-bit addressing). Is it a 16-bit CPU or an 8-bit CPU? > > ALU and internal data path are 16 bits. It's essentially an 8086 > multiplexed down to an 8 bit external data bus. That makes it a 16 > bit processor in my book, albeit a crippled one. For the same reason > a MC68008 is a 16 bit processor in the same way that the MC68000 is. Hmm... So, why was the Sega Genesis billed as a 16-bit machine? It uses a 68k. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 8 21:30:05 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:30:05 -0800 Subject: Intel MDS needs home Message-ID: <4733D43D.4000204@bitsavers.org> > I offered it to the Computer > History Museum and was turned down because they don't have anyone who > understands the MDS well enough to attempt to restore it. I was one of the people who evaluated the offer, and restoration was NEVER discussed. Anyone who has seen a picture of what you had offered would understand why. I've seen gear in dumpsters that look better than that MDS. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 21:32:50 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:32:50 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4733D4E2.4080709@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Eric J Korpela wrote: > >>> So what's your thoughts on the 8088? 16-bit registers, 8-bit data path >>> (but with 16-bit addressing). Is it a 16-bit CPU or an 8-bit CPU? >> ALU and internal data path are 16 bits. It's essentially an 8086 >> multiplexed down to an 8 bit external data bus. That makes it a 16 >> bit processor in my book, albeit a crippled one. For the same reason >> a MC68008 is a 16 bit processor in the same way that the MC68000 is. > > Hmm... So, why was the Sega Genesis billed as a 16-bit machine? It uses a > 68k. If memory serves, because it has a 16-bit graphics pipeline. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 8 21:36:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:36:26 -0600 Subject: trs80 items wanted Message-ID: <012101c82281$b6352180$6b00a8c0@JWEST> At VCFX I was able to get the last major component for my TRS80 setup (already have the monitor, drives, and expansion interface). I got the keyboard unit for $20. Looks like all I'm missing is a real tandy power supply for the Model 1 (yes, I know I can rig something up, but I'm looking for the real mccoy), and the buffered cable between keyboard and expansion interface. Anyone have one of those two items and is willing to trade? Jay West From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 8 21:35:34 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:35:34 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Mac help needed near Detroit Message-ID: <00bc01c82281$974e5d40$f750f945@evan> Someone please help my friend Peter. He's outside of Detroit and needs to move some files from a Mac IIsi, onto CD, to use inside a (presumably modern) version of Windows. Email him directly. - Evan petereckstein at comcast.net I am having a very hard time translating Mac files that I have on a CD into a Windows format. I have found a Mac IIsi computer that works well, but it only receives input from floppies. This may solve much of my problem, since a lot of my old work was preserved on floppies, but I still could use an external drive device that would let me import data from my CD to my IIsi. If you have any associates in MI who might be able to sell--or even to lend--me an old external CD drive, I would appreciate learning a name or two. I am in Ann Arbor, broadly speaking in the Detroit area. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 8 21:38:59 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:38:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel MDS needs home In-Reply-To: <4733D43D.4000204@bitsavers.org> References: <4733D43D.4000204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > > I offered it to the Computer > > History Museum and was turned down because they don't have anyone who > > understands the MDS well enough to attempt to restore it. > > I was one of the people who evaluated the offer, and restoration was NEVER > discussed. I'm sorry. I got my thoughts crossed with an email from someone who wanted to buy it to donate it to the Museum. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 21:50:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:50:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20071108194919.H39031@shell.lmi.net> > > Sounds like someone looking for an ASk 6Pak Pro. > Never used that one myself, but I did use an AST 6pak plus boards in PC/XT Which of those will take "a couple of megabytes", rather than just bringing the base system up to 640K? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 8 21:52:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:52:11 -0700 Subject: Visual Technologies X terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:19:14 -0600. <4733D1B2.4090405@guntersville.net> Message-ID: In article <4733D1B2.4090405 at guntersville.net>, "John C. Ellingboe" writes: > I didn't run across that one Chuck, thanks. They do seem to be rather > spiffy and use ps2 mouse and keyboard from PCs and will probably drive > most of the vga multisync monitors. As Richard mentioned I will need > their software and I do have the network to hook them to. They both > come up in their setup menu and then want to go out on the net for software. Try posting to the newsgroups comp.windows.x and comp.terminals and see if anyone else has a unit in working condition. They probably work like NCD units in that they want to use bootp to get the server downloaded to the terminal. From there you'll have to figure out how they configure things like fonts, the color database, and the like. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 8 21:55:21 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:55:21 -0600 Subject: Intel MDS needs home References: <4733D43D.4000204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <017601c82284$5a5b75f0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Maybe I'm just not looking closely enough. But that MDS certainly looks restorable/repairable to me. A huge amount of casework, but... doable non-theless. Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 21:54:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:54:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071108195326.V39031@shell.lmi.net> > "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), > $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) Deduct 25% from the value if it is "the FIRST personal computer" From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 8 21:55:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:55:47 -0700 Subject: Intel MDS needs home In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:17:45 -0800. Message-ID: There's an PDS on ebay right now (item #130171891328); perhaps the MDS can serve as spares/expansion for the PDS? I gather from the acronyms that they're related, but I don't know much about these systems. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 8 21:57:16 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:57:16 -0600 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <47334C29.15218.C3B05F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <47334C29.15218.C3B05F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071108215641.04f3d6d0@mail.threedee.com> At 07:49 PM 11/8/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Sigh. Some of my own technical info files, including some FAXed >engineering data from Teac have almost completely faded to >invisibility. Blueline drawings seem to suffer the same fate. I've >got the bluelines for the Integrand S-100 box if anyone can figure >out a way to read them. Does scanning help? Scan and boost the contrast. Maybe we need infrared scanners. - John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 22:03:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:03:45 -0800 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <4733CCAD.4050403@gmail.com> References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com>, <47335AD1.316.C7444E9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4733CCAD.4050403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47336BA1.17604.CB5F280@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2007 at 21:57, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > So, keeping this vintage, what size attribute would one assign to a > > CDC 6000-series PPU? 12-bit words, but 18-bit accumulator. > > Interesting. Does the store operation just truncate the extra bits? Yup. There's an 18-bit immediate load, and an 18-bit immediate add, but no 18-bit store, so you have to store the lower 12 bits then shift the top 6 down. All of this, of course, was to accommodate the 18 bit address space of the CDC 6000 series CPU. All in all, not a bad architecture--the low 64 locations of memory were "direct" cells that could be addressed directly or indirectly or indirectly with index. Many instructions were 12 bits wide and none was more than 24. Like all of Cray's earlier machines, however, 1's complement. Cheers, Chuck From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 8 17:10:08 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:10:08 +0000 Subject: Oddball hard drive failure... In-Reply-To: <4733A4F6.3020103@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6bpki0$7ebebl@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> > > I've got a Magnetic Peripherals 94211-91 SCSI drive here where the magnets for > the head stack seem to have been coated - at least around the edges - with > some form of paint. The paint's now begun to flake off, jamming up the head Snip: > Anyone seen this particular mode of failure before? It's a new one on me... > Jules This is unfortune fact of life with many rare-earth magnets, they were sintered material and corrodes badly unless coated or plated (chromed or nickel plated), some had poorer coating/plating and begin to corrode and swells eventually burst maget's seams open and get crap all over inside the hard drive. :P Still is even in modern hard drives when I had chance to take apart and I had one not too old camrecorder (7 years old) die this way, plated washer shaped magnet rotor burst open and jammed for the capstan drive. Cost was too high even in parts alone and age of this clinched it. Cheers, Wizard From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 8 22:24:16 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:24:16 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:37:39 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: Commodore PET >> "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), >> $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) >> >> But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the >> real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage >> computers, but not now. >FWIW, my Chiclet PET cost me a cool $900. -------- Feh! My 8032/8050 cost me $5000! And the Chiclet PET >$1000 IIRC. Of course, that was a while ago, when no one cared about vintage computers 'cause there weren't any to speak of, and in CDN$ when they were worthless ;-) Gonna run downstairs right now to replace the upgrade keyboard with the original keyboard & tape drive; oughta double my net worth... ;-) mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 22:34:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:34:07 -0800 Subject: Intel MDS needs home In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:17:45 -0800. Message-ID: Hi I don't think there is much in common between them The MDS is a Series II. The PDS was a x86 machine while the Series II was 8085/8080 type machine. Dwight > From: legalize at xmission.com> > There's an PDS on ebay right now (item #130171891328); perhaps the MDS> can serve as spares/expansion for the PDS?> > I gather from the acronyms that they're related, but I don't know much> about these systems. _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 22:37:52 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:37:52 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> References: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: The last PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard I bought cost me $35. Clearly, there are bargains to be had. $150 is a fair price though. Anyone want SuperPETs? I just bought five more. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 22:44:43 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:44:43 -0800 Subject: Intel MDS needs home In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:17:45 -0800. Message-ID: Oops I stand corrcted. It was a 8085 system. Still, about the only thing that might be used is the memory board. All the other boards I see in the series II are special to the series II. Dwight > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:34:07 -0800> Subject: RE: Intel MDS needs home> > > Hi> I don't think there is much in common between them> The MDS is a Series II. The PDS was a x86 machine while> the Series II was 8085/8080 type machine.> Dwight> > From: legalize at xmission.com> > There's an PDS on ebay right now (item #130171891328); perhaps the MDS> can serve as spares/expansion for the PDS?> > I gather from the acronyms that they're related, but I don't know much> about these systems.> _________________________________________________________________> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 8 22:45:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:45:36 +1300 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> References: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20071109044536.GA24490@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 11:24:16PM -0500, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:37:39 -0800 (PST) > From: Cameron Kaiser > Subject: Re: Commodore PET > > >> "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), > >> $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) > >> > >> But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the > >> real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage > >> computers, but not now. > > >FWIW, my Chiclet PET cost me a cool $900. > -------- > > Feh! My 8032/8050 cost me $5000! > And the Chiclet PET >$1000 IIRC. My PET 2001-32N (badged as a 3032 in Europe) was $1195 with a C2N and no disk... > Of course, that was a while ago, when no one cared about vintage computers > 'cause there weren't any to speak of, and in CDN$ when they were worthless ;-) At least mine was in USD. I got a lot of miles out of that PET. I still have it and it still fires up (but I think I have an IEEE problem that may turn out to be cruddy 40-pin sockets on the VLSI I/O chips). We were going to get an 8K PET, but my mother decided to get something that wouldn't be limiting the day it was brought home. I didn't get a disk drive for it for many years, and when I did, it was a 2040 with upgrade ROMs, turning it into a 4040, from University Surplus. I wouldn't mind getting a chicklet-keyboard PET (I sold that $100 one I had a few years back for slightly more than I paid), but I don't want one badly enough to pay $900. I'd probably seriously consider a broken PET with a shell in good shape, since I'm confident of my abilities to diagnose bad RAMs, bad sockets, etc. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at 04:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -42.9 F (-41.6 C) Windchill -69.1 F (-56.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.7 kts Grid 85 Barometer 691.1 mb (10212 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 22:56:21 2007 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:56:21 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109044536.GA24490@usap.gov> References: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> <20071109044536.GA24490@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4733E875.3030608@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 11:24:16PM -0500, M H Stein wrote: >> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:37:39 -0800 (PST) >> From: Cameron Kaiser >> Subject: Re: Commodore PET >> >>>> "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), >>>> $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) >>>> >>>> But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the >>>> real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage >>>> computers, but not now. >>> FWIW, my Chiclet PET cost me a cool $900. >> -------- >> >> Feh! My 8032/8050 cost me $5000! >> And the Chiclet PET >$1000 IIRC. > > My PET 2001-32N (badged as a 3032 in Europe) was $1195 with a C2N and no > disk... > >> Of course, that was a while ago, when no one cared about vintage computers >> 'cause there weren't any to speak of, and in CDN$ when they were worthless ;-) > > At least mine was in USD. > > I got a lot of miles out of that PET. I still have it and it still > fires up (but I think I have an IEEE problem that may turn out to be > cruddy 40-pin sockets on the VLSI I/O chips). > > We were going to get an 8K PET, but my mother decided to get something > that wouldn't be limiting the day it was brought home. I didn't get a > disk drive for it for many years, and when I did, it was a 2040 with > upgrade ROMs, turning it into a 4040, from University Surplus. > > I wouldn't mind getting a chicklet-keyboard PET (I sold that $100 one > I had a few years back for slightly more than I paid), but I don't want > one badly enough to pay $900. I'd probably seriously consider a broken > PET with a shell in good shape, since I'm confident of my abilities to > diagnose bad RAMs, bad sockets, etc. > > -ethan > I sold one of my Educator 64's a year ago for $1200. It's not actually a PET, but still... Mike From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Nov 8 13:53:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:53:59 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JR500ALMXOF4ZK5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There was, I seem to recall, a Microsoft ad that showed a screenshot > of an hourglass cursor and had the blurb of "Something you'll never > see with Windows (some preemptive version)". Yeah, right. This was a reaction to OS/2 Warp's UK television campaign, which actively showed people using OS/2 and noticing there was no hourglass (ie. things just happened whenever you wanted them to). I have a video of one of the commercials I can make available on youtube or something; let me know if you'd like to see it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Nov 8 22:33:33 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:33:33 -0600 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <4733E31D.20306@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Somehow people are turning this statement into some sort of praise for > intel's architecture. No, we're turning this statement into "a central PROCESSING unit should be labeled by it's PROCESSING width". > But just because the 80286 sucks and it's a 16 > bit processor, that doesn't turn the 68000 into a 32 bit processor. > It's just a better 16 bit processor. I honestly can't fathom how you are labeling a CPU with 32-bit registers and 32-bit bitwise and math operations a 16-bit processor. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spc at conman.org Thu Nov 8 23:10:09 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 00:10:09 -0500 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <47334AA8.50701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> <47334AA8.50701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20071109051009.GC19715@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > All this red herring's is about the data path. > The address calculations are done 32 bits rather than > intel's segment offset 16 bit hack. The real cry is you don't > have 32 bit direct addressing[2] on the 68000 so it is not 32bits. > What could use it today as modern[1] OS's don't have static addressing > anymore? What do you mean by 32-bit direct addressing? The 68000 has a 32-bit absolute address mode. Okay, it only supports 16 bit offsets from a register (A* or PC). I'm not sure I follow your argument here. > [1]Something after the 70's not running Fortran. > [2]pointer indirect is normal array accessing, not static. I don't understand what you are saying here. -spc (done my fair share of 68k programming) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 8 23:25:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:25:06 -0800 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> References: <0JR500ALMXOF4ZK5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com>, <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47337EB2.21665.D006B4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2007 at 13:53, Jim Leonard wrote: > This was a reaction to OS/2 Warp's UK television campaign, which > actively showed people using OS/2 and noticing there was no hourglass > (ie. things just happened whenever you wanted them to). I have a video > of one of the commercials I can make available on youtube or something; > let me know if you'd like to see it. Just trying to remember the Microsoft product being advertised. Would it have been NT 4.0? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 23:46:46 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:46:46 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4733F446.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric J Korpela wrote: > For MC6809, I don't know enough of the internals to make a judgement. > I'd guess that it's got an 8 bit ALU and 8 bit internal data paths, > but I'm not sure. That is true for the 6809, but the 6309 (6809 clone)I think has 16 bit internal data paths. > Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 23:54:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:54:16 -0700 Subject: MC68000 "size" (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <20071109051009.GC19715@brevard.conman.org> References: <3167.84.64.2.100.1194509842.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> <47334AA8.50701@jetnet.ab.ca> <20071109051009.GC19715@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4733F608.6040902@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean Conner wrote: > What do you mean by 32-bit direct addressing? The 68000 has a 32-bit > absolute address mode. Okay, it only supports 16 bit offsets from a > register (A* or PC). I'm not sure I follow your argument here. To me 16 bit offsets are fine. Ben. that all I can say, least we get off topic. From davis at saw.net Thu Nov 8 23:52:42 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:52:42 -0800 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071108215641.04f3d6d0@mail.threedee.com> References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <47334C29.15218.C3B05F8@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20071108215641.04f3d6d0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4733F5AA.6060607@saw.net> John Foust wrote: > At 07:49 PM 11/8/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Sigh. Some of my own technical info files, including some FAXed >> engineering data from Teac have almost completely faded to >> invisibility. Blueline drawings seem to suffer the same fate. I've >> got the bluelines for the Integrand S-100 box if anyone can figure >> out a way to read them. >> > > Does scanning help? Scan and boost the contrast. Maybe we need > infrared scanners. > > - John > > > > Try a digital camera with different kinds of lighting. That might bring out the drawing. Jim Davis. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 8 23:59:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:59:32 +1300 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: References: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20071109055932.GB24490@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 11:37:52PM -0500, Golan Klinger wrote: > Anyone want SuperPETs? I just bought five more. Where are you located? I'd want one shipped to 43232. I have the boards from a SuperPET, but as spare, not a SuperPET itself. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at 05:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -42.5 F (-41.4 C) Windchill -66.5 F (-54.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 87 Barometer 691.3 mb (10205 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 9 00:02:00 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 00:02:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <20071108194919.H39031@shell.lmi.net> References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <20071108194919.H39031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Sounds like someone looking for an ASk 6Pak Pro. >> Never used that one myself, but I did use an AST 6pak plus boards in PC/XT > > Which of those will take "a couple of megabytes", rather than just > bringing the base system up to 640K? The AST 6pak Plus was specifically for the IBM PC/XT and compatibles and only goes up to 640k. There is a bank of dip switches for selecting the amount of existing system memory. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 00:05:50 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 01:05:50 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C8226D.92FA0E60@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:45:36 +1300 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Commodore PET >I wouldn't mind getting a chicklet-keyboard PET (I sold that $100 one >I had a few years back for slightly more than I paid), Hey, where's my cut? Seems to me I sold you a like-new chiclet keyboard for that baby for a song... ;-) >I'd probably seriously consider a broken PET with a shell in good shape, >since I'm confident of my abilities to diagnose bad RAMs, bad sockets, etc. If you find a shell and need a board I've got a nice challenge for ya: a 2001 mobo that someone started to convert to 64K dynamic RAMS... mike From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 00:11:33 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 01:11:33 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C8226D.9449BFE0@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:37:52 -0500 From: "Golan Klinger" Subject: Re: Commodore PET >The last PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard I bought cost me $35. >Clearly, there are bargains to be had. $150 is a fair price though. Shhhh! I wanna find another Cameron that'll give me $900! (CDN$, none of that US green paper...) mike From g-wright at att.net Fri Nov 9 00:22:21 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 06:22:21 +0000 Subject: trs80 items wanted Message-ID: <110920070622.29396.4733FC9C00015783000072D422216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Jay West" : -------------- > At VCFX I was able to get the last major component for my TRS80 setup > (already have the monitor, drives, and expansion interface). I got the > keyboard unit for $20. > > Looks like all I'm missing is a real tandy power supply for the Model 1 > (yes, I know I can rig something up, but I'm looking for the real mccoy), > and the buffered cable between keyboard and expansion interface. > > Anyone have one of those two items and is willing to trade? > > Jay West > > Jay, I offered you these last month ??? keyboard, PS . you would just have to take the whole expansion unit. not just the cable. never heard back ??? - jerry From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 9 00:36:27 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:36:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <01C8226D.9449BFE0@MSE_D03> from M H Stein at "Nov 9, 7 01:11:33 am" Message-ID: <200711090636.lA96aRrW015434@floodgap.com> > > The last PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard I bought cost me $35. > > Clearly, there are bargains to be had. $150 is a fair price though. > > Shhhh! > I wanna find another Cameron that'll give me $900! In all seriousness, I think it was worth it and I'm happy to have it. Wouldn't drop that kind of coin on just anything. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He who Laughs, Lasts. ------------------------------------------------------ From ama at ugr.es Fri Nov 9 01:06:35 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:06:35 +0100 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 01:53:59PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > (ie. things just happened whenever you wanted them to). I have a video > of one of the commercials I can make available on youtube or something; > let me know if you'd like to see it. I'd like to have it. But, please make it available on a better quality place than YouTube and a better format than flv. Thanks, ?ngel -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 9 01:24:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:24:38 +1300 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <01C8226D.92FA0E60@MSE_D03> References: <01C8226D.92FA0E60@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20071109072438.GA31775@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 01:05:50AM -0500, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:45:36 +1300 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Commodore PET > > > >I wouldn't mind getting a chicklet-keyboard PET (I sold that $100 one > >I had a few years back for slightly more than I paid), > > > Hey, where's my cut? Seems to me I sold you a like-new chiclet keyboard > for that baby for a song... > ;-) You did sell me a NOS keyboard. I still have it, and it's still unused. I plan to install it in an old PET, once I come across one. I sold that 8K PET before you sold me the keyboard. In hindsight, I'm sorry that I sold it, but at the time, it was easy to find a buyer for a flaky unit (it was flaky when I got it). > >I'd probably seriously consider a broken PET with a shell in good shape, > >since I'm confident of my abilities to diagnose bad RAMs, bad sockets, etc. > > If you find a shell and need a board I've got a nice challenge for ya: > a 2001 mobo that someone started to convert to 64K dynamic RAMS... Ow... I have 9" PET shells, but they are of the 2001-32N variety ("dynamic PETs"), not the 4K-8K variety ("static PETs") - i.e. graphic keyboard and external tape, not chicklet keyboard and internal tape. If someone tried to hack DRAMs in place on a static board, I'll bet that's a mess. I have a 2001-16N board with factory perforations on the high 16K RAM pads that I'd like to eventually reburbish to a full 32K. If you really are interested in finding someone who is willing/able to make that one live once again, I am entirely willing to give it a go. I don't have a shell here, but I already have a 3032 board on the way here from Sweden, so I was planning on trying to build a keyboard adapter of some kind and an XOR-based composite-out adapter with a closed-circuit TV monitor to get it all working. Doing the same for an old PET wouldn't be that much of a stretch (I was planning on using a C2N232 adapter for mass storage, eliminating the need to send down a real floppy drive). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at 07:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -41.6 F (-40.9 C) Windchill -63.3 F (-52.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 88 Barometer 691.5 mb (10197 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Nov 9 01:28:27 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 02:28:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711090734.CAA15511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Forget electrcity ... Have a torch heated valve. :) > I'd love to see you keep that flame burning while having a > sufficienltly low gas pressure around the cathode to have a long > enough mean free path for the electrons, Not to mention problems > caused by the ions geenrated by said flame. Doable. The glass envelope for the vacuum takes the form of two concentric cylinders joined at their ends, topologically a torus. The cathode is another concentric cylinder, this time of metal or whatever, just barely larger than the inner glass cylinder, with the grids and anode/plate forming successively larger cylinders. The heater flame passes through the centre of the cylinder (which is outside the glass vacuum envelope), heating the cathode by infrared radiation, much as a conventional heater does. (The glass forming the inner cylinder needs to be infrared-transparent and probably high-melting-point.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 9 01:43:56 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 01:43:56 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <47340FBC.4060706@oldskool.org> Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 01:53:59PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> (ie. things just happened whenever you wanted them to). I have a video >> of one of the commercials I can make available on youtube or something; >> let me know if you'd like to see it. > > I'd like to have it. But, please make it available on a better > quality place than YouTube and a better format than flv. That would be difficult, because it's not too great itself (it's MPEG-1 352x288 25fps PAL) But you're lucky I'm a digital video snob; the original unmolested file can be found here: ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/OS2WARUK.MPG -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 02:17:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:17:09 -0800 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711090734.CAA15511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <200711090734.CAA15511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4733A705.11601.D9DEC7A@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 2:28, der Mouse wrote: > The glass envelope for the vacuum takes the form of two concentric > cylinders joined at their ends, topologically a torus. The cathode is > another concentric cylinder, this time of metal or whatever, just > barely larger than the inner glass cylinder, with the grids and > anode/plate forming successively larger cylinders. The heater flame > passes through the centre of the cylinder (which is outside the glass > vacuum envelope), heating the cathode by infrared radiation, much as a > conventional heater does. (The glass forming the inner cylinder needs > to be infrared-transparent and probably high-melting-point.) Interesting idea, but why not a simple copper cathode extending through the (silica) envenlope and heated externally? Thermal conduction should give you enough for thermionic emission on the interior. I wonder if it's already been done--as a high-temperature measuring device. On the subject of cathodes (and vintage computers), whatever happened to the tunnel cathode? Back in the 60's, there was a lot of work (some by IBM) going on with CRTs utilitizing them and there were predictions that tunnel-cathode tubes in general would make electron tubes as reliable as the transistor. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 9 02:56:19 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:56:19 +0000 Subject: Intel MDS needs home In-Reply-To: <017601c82284$5a5b75f0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <4733D43D.4000204@bitsavers.org> <017601c82284$5a5b75f0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <200711090856.19110.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 09 November 2007 03:55:21 Jay West wrote: > Maybe I'm just not looking closely enough. But that MDS certainly looks > restorable/repairable to me. A huge amount of casework, but... doable > non-theless. I'd say it depends what kind of restoration you want to do. I'd be inclined to build a new chassis for it "in period style", at least until I got the case sorted. You just know that *someone* out there is sitting on 200 sparkly-new MDS cases still in their factory packaging. Gordon From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Nov 9 03:22:41 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:22:41 +0100 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <200711090636.lA96aRrW015434@floodgap.com> References: <200711090636.lA96aRrW015434@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <473426E1.7070804@bluewin.ch> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> The last PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard I bought cost me $35. >>> Clearly, there are bargains to be had. $150 is a fair price though. >> Shhhh! >> I wanna find another Cameron that'll give me $900! > > In all seriousness, I think it was worth it and I'm happy to have it. > Wouldn't drop that kind of coin on just anything. > To think I left a chicklet keyboard pet in a dumpster, just a few years ago. "Too much stuff, it's just a PET, I can always get another.." Jos From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Nov 9 03:27:25 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:27:25 +0100 Subject: Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted. Message-ID: <473427FD.7030603@bluewin.ch> Anyone has the above ? It is a 14 pin TTL IC, according to google some sort of CRC generator. It is part of the mididisk controller of the ETH Lilith, which I am reverse engineering. Jos From cc at corti-net.de Fri Nov 9 03:38:57 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:38:57 +0100 (CET) Subject: Oddball hard drive failure... In-Reply-To: <4733A4F6.3020103@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4733A4F6.3020103@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've got a Magnetic Peripherals 94211-91 SCSI drive here where the magnets > for the head stack seem to have been coated - at least around the edges - > with some form of paint. The paint's now begun to flake off, jamming up the > head assembly and preventing the drive from seeking properly (sometimes it > wouldn't spin up at all, other times it'd spin up, flop the heads around as > much as it could, and then power down again) > > Anyone seen this particular mode of failure before? It's a new one on me... Oh yes... I have an HP 97536-60051 ESDI hard disk with the same symptoms. The magnets are painted black and this paint flaked off (into lots of tiny bits and also into dust). But the paint seems to be magnetic as the flakes and (most of) the dust stick on the magnets and are hard to remove (even with a brush and vacuum cleaner). Christian From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Nov 8 12:54:55 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:54:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos In-Reply-To: References: <47204AAB.4050408@iais.fraunhofer.de> from "Holger Veit" at Oct 25, 7 09:50:03 am Message-ID: <26236.217.225.97.151.1194548095.squirrel@217.225.97.151> Tony Duell said: >> >> This xxxNNN convention was some European attempt to standardize the >> various logic families in the 70s; >> I think this came from JEDEC as a joint venture of Siemens, Philips, and >> some other vendors). >> The idea was basically to have the first letter to describe the logic >> family, the second a temperature range or >> a sub family (e.g. Z=noise immune logic with 12Vcc), the third a >> functional category. The three digit number then >> refers to the actual circuit. So, an FLH101 was a TTL (F) with >> temperature range 0..70degC (L), and >> combinational circuit (H). The number here refers to 4 totem pole NAND-2 >> gates -> so this is the well-known 7400. >> J in the third place denotes some flip flop or counter, K is a monoflop, >> L is a decoder (e.g. 74141, 7445, 7447). >> I have to look up the complete convention in some old Siemens data >> books. > > I have at least one old Mullard (==Philips :-)) databook containing ICs > with these numbers. I'd be interested in seeing the coding, though, I > think I have soem 'FCH161' chips in the spares box... More on this: The above convention was named ProElectron standard or ProElectron naming convention. It is still survivu?ng in European analog circuits used in consumer products like TV sets. I digged out an incomplete document which describes a bit of this: http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/various/HBPROEL.pdf This does not talk about the historic series like FL, or FC, or FZ, but ProElectron is some starting point for that to look for them. -- From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Nov 8 15:18:20 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:18:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tandy Logix-Kosmos In-Reply-To: <26236.217.225.97.151.1194548095.squirrel@217.225.97.151> References: <47204AAB.4050408@iais.fraunhofer.de> from "Holger Veit" at Oct 25, 7 09:50:03 am <26236.217.225.97.151.1194548095.squirrel@217.225.97.151> Message-ID: <26363.217.225.97.151.1194556700.squirrel@217.225.97.151> Holger Veit said: [...] >> I have at least one old Mullard (==Philips :-)) databook containing ICs >> with these numbers. I'd be interested in seeing the coding, though, I >> think I have soem 'FCH161' chips in the spares box... > > More on this: > The above convention was named ProElectron standard or ProElectron naming > convention. It is still survivu?ng in European analog circuits used in > consumer products like TV sets. > I digged out an incomplete document which describes a bit of this: > http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/various/HBPROEL.pdf > > This does not talk about the historic series like FL, or FC, or FZ, but > ProElectron is some starting point for that to look for them. And finally: http://www.eeca.org/data/File/PE/D15%20final%20version%202007_06.pdf So I was partly wrong: for digital circuits, the first two letters are a manufacturer's designator. The 'FC' in the above denotes Philips, 'FL' for instance is Siemens/Infineon. To add insult to the injury: the same, in this case TTL, circuit has different names. I found the following, incomplete cross reference table in a 1973 Siemens data book: Philips Siemens TI FJH101 FLH131 SN7430 FJH111 FLH121 SN7420 FJH121 FLH111 SN7410 FJH131 FLH101 SN7400 FJH141 FLH141 SN7440 FJH151 FLH151 SN7450 FJH161 FLH161 SN7451 FJH171 FLH171 SN7453 FJH181 FLH181 SN7454 FJH191 FLH221 SN7480 FJH201 FLH231 SN7482 FJH211 FLH241 SN7483 FJH221 FLH191 SN7402 FJH231 FLH201 SN7401 FJH241 FLH211 SN7404 FJH251 FLH271 SN7405 FJJ101 FLJ101 SN7470 FJJ111 FLJ111 SN7472 FJJ121 FLJ121 SN7473 FJJ131 FLJ141 SN7474 FJJ141 FLJ161 SN7490A FJJ181 FLJ151 SN7475 FJJ191 FLJ131 SN7476 FJJ211 FLJ181 SN7493A FJJ231 FLJ191 SN7495A FJJ251 FLJ171 SN7492A FJL101 FLL101 SN74141 FJY101 FLY101 SN7460 There are many more relations between Siemens FL* types and the standard 74/84/49 circuits. -- Holger From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Nov 8 15:57:46 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:57:46 -0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>>> The Whitechapel MG1 must have orun some unix-like OS (although I doubt it was Zenix), and that machine is certianly 32016-based <<<<< It wasn't just "Unix-like", it was Unix. Actually there were (at least) two versions - I think the 1st one was fairly closely based on "raw" AT&T, the second was more BSD-like. I don't know whether I should admit to this (NDA from long ago), but I have the complete AT&T Unix source for the 32016 from the days when City University had a loads of MG-1s ... well zipped it fits on 3 floppies. (could you even get the kernel source for a modern *nix in that space?) Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.24/1117 - Release Date: 07/11/2007 22:52 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 8 17:01:48 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:01:48 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JR7005G3MMO3860@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:02:00 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 10:11 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote: >>On Wednesday 07 November 2007 10:53, Allison wrote: >> > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing >> > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. >>(Snip) >> > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods >> > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! >> >>This probably explains a lot why I encounter 9602 (and the LS variant) fairly >>often in stuff that's otherwise full of the standard 74xx (or LS) parts. >> >>I remember back in 1978 trying (unsuccessfully) to make an interface >>board for >>a dual cassette deck that we had on trial to work with the H11 system I'd >>built for this company. The fella on the phone warned me to stay away from >>the '123 parts for just this sort of reason... > >Its not the one shots... I installed a Cromenco ZPU card and it also crashes. Some Z80 cards complicate the issue. They have diffent timing and at 4mhz some ram MAY NOT be fast enough. Either slow the z80 to 2mhz or more wait states from ram. FYI: the Seals 8k [most 2102 basd cards] cards are marginal for Z80 above about 2.5mhz. >I really wanted to get this setup working. In my experience, the >Altair disk subsystem with a half dozen one shots is more reliable >and predictable to the Tarbell (hehehe). And taht experience was >with a CPU card that had one shots so out of spec according to the >intel data sheets the 8080 should not run. > >Now I have a CPU card that has been tweaked to have perfect CPU clock >timing. Nothing. : ( Also make sure the crystal osc is really running at 2mhz. Mine would sometimes take off at 4 or 6mhz until I dumped it for 8224. Shows how rough the bus timing and noise can be. Is that a one piece backplane of the two sided variety or the one of the earlier Altair 4 slot chains or single sided backplane? The reason is the earlier two styles were noisy at best and terminators didn't work well on them. Replaced the backplne with WAMCO unit and the problem improved and terminations worked. The front pannel still induced a lot of ringing on the bus. >My next guess is going to be switching the disk drive to run off of >power from the Altair. The disk drive is getting about 5.25v from >the AT computer power supply and the S-100 boards are regulating >their 5v to 4.95v. I really don't think that could be a problem, but Thats not it. Do make sure the drive and it's DC have a good common ground. >I'm willing to investigate anything right now. I am going to give >the manual a close look and make sure there aren't Altair specific >wiring instructions that were missed. I just can't figure out why it >is going crazy! I might have to get out the oscilloscope. You might. One thing to check. Is the raw BUS voltages at least 8V and 16V?? I when through two sets of PS mods to get enough power for a 48K of 8K 2102 rams, a VDM1, Altair PIO, Altair SIO plus eventually a NS* MDS. >I installed all of the boards in a "vintage" Altair with less luck. Thats why mine is retired. I'd feel different if it were an 8800B. >Grrr... This is the 3rd Tarbell card I've used trying to get >something good. The cards are modified by someone, work PERFECT in >his IMSAI with one of my reproduction 8080 CPU cards, and mailed to >me. He found that he needed a terminator to make it work, so I >installed a terminator that he sent me. The terminator only made >things worse. It could be the front pannel doing something to you. Now your getting a feel for what life was like for an Altair owning early adoptor. I still really feel that the hardware issues I fought with delayed my developing software efforts. It was when I went to the NS* and Netronics Explorer 8085 that I stopped chasing hardware and started working with higher level languages and system performance. Allison >Grant From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Fri Nov 9 02:56:08 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:56:08 +0000 Subject: Intel MDS needs home In-Reply-To: <017601c82284$5a5b75f0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <4733D43D.4000204@bitsavers.org> <017601c82284$5a5b75f0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <200711090856.08553.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Friday 09 November 2007 03:55:21 Jay West wrote: > Maybe I'm just not looking closely enough. But that MDS certainly looks > restorable/repairable to me. A huge amount of casework, but... doable > non-theless. I'd say it depends what kind of restoration you want to do. I'd be inclined to build a new chassis for it "in period style", at least until I got the case sorted. You just know that *someone* out there is sitting on 200 sparkly-new MDS cases still in their factory packaging. Gordon From dmabry at mich.com Fri Nov 9 03:48:19 2007 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 04:48:19 -0500 Subject: Intel MDS needs home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47342CE3.20300@mich.com> David Griffith said the following on 11/8/2007 10:17 PM: > I have an Intel MDS that needs special care. As you may have heard, I was > in a car accident at the beginning of last month. The main casualty, > except for the car, was an Intel MDS. snip > No keyboard was present to begin with. > > This owner is the same one who had the Nova 4 I offered > here in September. > > [1] http://frotz.homeunix.org/mds-damage.jpg > Regarding one reply to this about a PDS, there is nothing at all in common. Not even a memory board, so that really isn't an option. However, regarding the "victim" of the accident, it does appear from the photos that most or all of the boards are likely undamaged from the accident. I have an MDS that is intact, mechanically, but that has several missing or nonfunctional boards. The two would make one. Mine needs just about all the pieces that appear good in this photo. That includes the monitor module. Since I already have several MDS's that are functional, I'm not really interested in spending money to create another. However, if there is a museum that is interested in a working MDS, I would be willing to create one from this "wreckage" and my partial system and give it to that museum. If someone is willing to get with me about that possibility, let's talk. Dave Mabry From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 03:55:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:55:34 +0000 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <473426E1.7070804@bluewin.ch> References: <200711090636.lA96aRrW015434@floodgap.com> <473426E1.7070804@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <47342E96.9040008@yahoo.co.uk> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > To think I left a chicklet keyboard pet in a dumpster, just a few years > ago. "Too much stuff, it's just a PET, I can always get another.." We still seem to get them offered to the museum in healthy numbers - including the chicklet models (and once in a while one of the blue-fronted ones, which I believe are the earliest). I've never tried actively seeking one out though as there's been no need. Finding one that works seems to be the difficult bit - I don't think I've ever seen one which hasn't required some form of TLC inside. Nasty, clunky, horrible things they are ;-) cheers Jules From james at attfield.co.uk Fri Nov 9 03:59:53 2007 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:59:53 -0000 Subject: Televideo Terminals TS-800A??? (UK) In-Reply-To: <200711081801.lA8I0SCw010848@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Televideo Terminals TS-800A (UK) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <47323EAB.24181.81E5663 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 7 Nov 2007 at 21:25, Roger Ivie wrote: > > > I've not encountered a TS-800, but I was under the impression > that they were > > diskless workstations for use with something like a TS-806 MMMOST > > server. > > According to the Russian televideo.ru site, the TS-800 is a sump > pump: > > http://www.televideo.ru/product.asp?idDepartament=216&idProduct=11357& > cas=9 > > My recollection of the TS-800A was a diskless Z80 workstation, > interfaced via RS-422 (IIRC). > > Cheers, :) > Chuck Hehe - nice pump lol. I have asked for confirmation of the exact model number so we can be sure. Apologies for any confusion. Herewith a link to an image which may help to identify same. http://www.attfield.co.uk/gallery/tv.jpg Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 9 03:04:49 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 02:04:49 -0700 Subject: Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted. References: <473427FD.7030603@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <473422B1.FD901571@cs.ubc.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > Anyone has the above ? > > It is a 14 pin TTL IC, according to google some sort of CRC generator. > It is part of the mididisk controller of the ETH Lilith, which I am > reverse engineering. A minimal pinout is on the second page of http://www.datasheets.org.uk/pdf/520766.pdf It's a 2 page extract from a Fairchild full-line condensed catalog. Might help for making a schematic but it's not a full functional description. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 04:07:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:07:27 +0000 Subject: Oddball hard drive failure... In-Reply-To: <6bpki0$7ebebl@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> References: <6bpki0$7ebebl@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> Message-ID: <4734315F.4030104@yahoo.co.uk> jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: >> I've got a Magnetic Peripherals 94211-91 SCSI drive here where the magnets for >> the head stack seem to have been coated - at least around the edges - with >> some form of paint. The paint's now begun to flake off, jamming up the head > Snip: > >> Anyone seen this particular mode of failure before? It's a new one on me... >> Jules > > This is unfortune fact of life with many rare-earth magnets, they > were sintered material and corrodes badly unless coated or plated > (chromed or nickel plated), some had poorer coating/plating and > begin to corrode and swells eventually burst maget's seams open and > get crap all over inside the hard drive. Interesting... it's not something I've ever seen happen before - logic faults, head crashes, spindle motor failures etc, yes, but it's the first time I've seen this particular failure. I didn't even realise until I saw this drive that drive magnets are coated in anything at all. My archive attempt got 58MB into the 80MB drive (with about 2MB of broken sectors) then the drive suddenly span down - I wonder if it maintains its own error count on board and just declared itself broken. I'm just trying another attempt now and if it's worth doing I'll merge the resulting two files and see if I can get any meaningful data out of them. The disk was from Torch's offices, and does seem to have an install of their flavour of UNIX on (I'd wondered if it'd been wiped) - there's a chance it's got something interesting on it. I've managed to mount Torch partitions before under Linux (using one of the UFS variants I think) so I'll give that a try - it's just a question of whether the image is way too full of holes for the filesystem driver to make any sense of it... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 04:10:54 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:10:54 +0000 Subject: Oddball hard drive failure... In-Reply-To: References: <4733A4F6.3020103@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4734322E.9000405@yahoo.co.uk> Christian Corti wrote: >> Anyone seen this particular mode of failure before? It's a new one on >> me... > > Oh yes... I have an HP 97536-60051 ESDI hard disk with the same > symptoms. The magnets are painted black and this paint flaked off (into > lots of tiny bits and also into dust). But the paint seems to be > magnetic as the flakes and (most of) the dust stick on the magnets and > are hard to remove (even with a brush and vacuum cleaner). Exactly the same with my drive. Cleaning the top magnet wasn't so bad as I could take it to the sink to do it and really work at it, but I couldn't do much for the lower one - and obviously removing the whole head assembly is a bad idea ;) I don't think it's a failure mode I've ever seen mentioned on the list before. I wonder it's it's one that's going to become more and more common as the drives age, though? :-( From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 9 04:23:35 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:23:35 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <200711091023.35436.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 09 November 2007 07:06:35 Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 01:53:59PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > > (ie. things just happened whenever you wanted them to). I have a video > > of one of the commercials I can make available on youtube or something; > > let me know if you'd like to see it. > > I'd like to have it. But, please make it available on a better > quality place than YouTube and a better format than flv. This is offtopic, so I shall say only very little - .flv is actually a damn good format. The reason so much stuff on youtube.com looks rubbish is because they're encoded from poor quality sources. If you feed YouTube a heavily-compressed 320x240 MPEG4, the output will look dreadful. obclassiccmp: I'm finishing shooting a short clip about my PDP11. This *will* be available on YouTube. Yes, the quality is quite good. Yes, I spent a bit of time and money on lighting and sound. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 9 04:25:03 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:25:03 +0000 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711091025.03114.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Thursday 08 November 2007 20:49:34 Tony Duell wrote: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > This is the way I learned it, and I'm in the US. > > > > Forget electrcity ... Have a torch heated valve. :) > > I'd love to see you keep that flame burning while having a sufficienltly > low gas pressure around the cathode to have a long enough mean free path > for the electrons, Not to mention problems caused by the ions geenrated > by said flame. Bring a copper bar out through the envelope to heat the cathode, like old hot-tube ignition systems. Gordon From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Nov 9 05:19:47 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:19:47 -0000 Subject: [personal] cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 25 message 28 References: <200711090459.lA94xFPt022214@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006f01c822c2$70da1780$911ca8c0@mss.local> > My PET 2001-32N (badged as a 3032 in Europe) was $1195 with a C2N and no > disk... > > I got a lot of miles out of that PET. I still have it and it still > fires up (but I think I have an IEEE problem that may turn out to be > cruddy 40-pin sockets on the VLSI I/O chips). > Way back when, the company bought a 2032 for stock control and invoicing, used for 5 years or so. After about a year it continually needed opening up and the chips reseating, got so frustrated with this that we replaced ALL the Ic sockets with "turned pin" types and never had anymore problems with that machine ever again. Mike From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Nov 9 05:38:09 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:38:09 +0100 Subject: Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted. In-Reply-To: <473422B1.FD901571@cs.ubc.ca> References: <473427FD.7030603@bluewin.ch> <473422B1.FD901571@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <473446A1.8070701@bluewin.ch> > A minimal pinout is on the second page of > > http://www.datasheets.org.uk/pdf/520766.pdf > > It's a 2 page extract from a Fairchild full-line condensed catalog. > Might help for making a schematic but it's not a full functional description. > Thanks, this helps a great deal. Interesting logic famliy BTW, have not before come across them. From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Nov 9 06:59:58 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:59:58 -0500 Subject: HP Key Notes Available Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20071109074332.0153d7c0@mail.degnanco.net> The following items are outside of my sphere of interest, but I bet some on this list would be interested, so here goes... I have available for trade a complete set of the first few years of the HP Key Notes magazine: HP Key Notes 1977 Vol 1; numbers 1,2 (featuring the HP-01), and 3 HP Key Notes 1978 Vol 2; numbers 1,2,3,4 HP Key Notes 1979 Vol 3; numbers 1,2,3 Plus HP Key Notes 1981 Vol 5; numbers 1, 3 and "The Hewlett-Packard Personal Calculator Digest" magazine Volume Three 1977. Cover HP-19C and HP 67/97 User's Library Catalog of contributed programs (not the programs themselves) with program submittal worksheets If interested, contact me via billdeg at aol dot com or my web site, vintagecomputer.net. I would consider almost any reasonable trade From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 9 07:29:12 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 08:29:12 -0500 Subject: the Alpha Micro Phun Machine In-Reply-To: <200711090052.lA90qYw7017714@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200711091329.lA9DTJjj001005@keith.ezwind.net> Here in Columbus Ohio, the fire departments toys-for-tots program is still ran on an alpha micro last I knew. Last year I had lunch with and talked ablut it their system guy. It tracks the kids from year to year and matches up donated to familys based on age, sex, interests and needs. later The other Bob On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:52:34 -0800 (PST), Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > Hopefully this will be useful to other people who >> > have been curious about Alpha Micro boxes. >> > http://ampm.floodgap.com/ >> kewell. I want one. >I've always liked them. The Salvation Army used Alpha Micros (my suspicion >is the local corps had an AM-2000, based on the year) for their church >management software for many years, which is where I got rudimentary >experience in AMOS. >It's a shame they're not more common, because they're certainly interesting. >-- >------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com >-- How do you explain school to a higher intelligence? -- Elliott in "E.T." --- From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Nov 9 07:38:28 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:38:28 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <473462D4.50003@mdrconsult.com> Just for curiosity's sahe. Is the discussion of a dedicated, non-PC, programmable serial terminal dead in the water? Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Nov 9 07:52:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:52:12 -0600 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071108195326.V39031@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071108195326.V39031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4734660C.5050405@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), >> $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) > > Deduct 25% from the value if it is "the FIRST personal computer" Heh. It's in a thrift store in San Antonio TX. There's a price tag on it, and that's it. I don't particularly want it. Wait, let me rephrase that. Unless a PET can commit an unnatural act while humming Bolero, I particularly don't want it. :) However, if someone else does, it's at Goodwill Computer Works (thanks, Mark!) on IH410. I'll be back down there Monday the 19th, so if anybody wants it reeeaaaallly badly, I could be persuaded to nab it and ship it. They also had a stack of very clean Apple IIgs boxes for $15. the 2 that I looked in had memory expansion, nothing else. The PET's really outside my scope of interest, so I didn't look at it that closely. I think the tape drive was sitting a little skewed, but didn't notice any obvious wear on the keyboard, or damage to the screen or case. Doc From eightbitguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 9 09:07:21 2007 From: eightbitguy at sbcglobal.net (Atsushi Takahashi) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:07:21 -0800 Subject: Netronics Explorer-85! was Re: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JR7005G3MMO3860@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR7005G3MMO3860@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1194620841.6308.2.camel@spinor.yfyamt.net> On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 18:01 -0500, Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > > From: Grant Stockly > > Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:02:00 -0900 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >At 10:11 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote: > >>On Wednesday 07 November 2007 10:53, Allison wrote: > >> > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing > >> > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. > >>(Snip) > >> > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods > >> > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! > >> > >>This probably explains a lot why I encounter 9602 (and the LS variant) fairly > >>often in stuff that's otherwise full of the standard 74xx (or LS) parts. > >> > >>I remember back in 1978 trying (unsuccessfully) to make an interface > >>board for > >>a dual cassette deck that we had on trial to work with the H11 system I'd > >>built for this company. The fella on the phone warned me to stay away from > >>the '123 parts for just this sort of reason... > > > >Its not the one shots... I installed a Cromenco ZPU card and it also crashes. > > Some Z80 cards complicate the issue. They have diffent timing and at 4mhz > some ram MAY NOT be fast enough. Either slow the z80 to 2mhz or more wait > states from ram. > > FYI: the Seals 8k [most 2102 basd cards] cards are marginal for Z80 > above about 2.5mhz. > > >I really wanted to get this setup working. In my experience, the > >Altair disk subsystem with a half dozen one shots is more reliable > >and predictable to the Tarbell (hehehe). And taht experience was > >with a CPU card that had one shots so out of spec according to the > >intel data sheets the 8080 should not run. > > > >Now I have a CPU card that has been tweaked to have perfect CPU clock > >timing. Nothing. : ( > > Also make sure the crystal osc is really running at 2mhz. Mine would > sometimes take off at 4 or 6mhz until I dumped it for 8224. > > Shows how rough the bus timing and noise can be. Is that a one piece > backplane of the two sided variety or the one of the earlier Altair > 4 slot chains or single sided backplane? The reason is the earlier > two styles were noisy at best and terminators didn't work well on them. > Replaced the backplne with WAMCO unit and the problem improved and > terminations worked. The front pannel still induced a lot of ringing > on the bus. > > >My next guess is going to be switching the disk drive to run off of > >power from the Altair. The disk drive is getting about 5.25v from > >the AT computer power supply and the S-100 boards are regulating > >their 5v to 4.95v. I really don't think that could be a problem, but > > Thats not it. Do make sure the drive and it's DC have a good common > ground. > > >I'm willing to investigate anything right now. I am going to give > >the manual a close look and make sure there aren't Altair specific > >wiring instructions that were missed. I just can't figure out why it > >is going crazy! I might have to get out the oscilloscope. > > You might. One thing to check. Is the raw BUS voltages at least 8V > and 16V?? I when through two sets of PS mods to get enough power > for a 48K of 8K 2102 rams, a VDM1, Altair PIO, Altair SIO plus > eventually a NS* MDS. > > >I installed all of the boards in a "vintage" Altair with less luck. > > Thats why mine is retired. I'd feel different if it were an 8800B. > > >Grrr... This is the 3rd Tarbell card I've used trying to get > >something good. The cards are modified by someone, work PERFECT in > >his IMSAI with one of my reproduction 8080 CPU cards, and mailed to > >me. He found that he needed a terminator to make it work, so I > >installed a terminator that he sent me. The terminator only made > >things worse. > > It could be the front pannel doing something to you. > > Now your getting a feel for what life was like for an Altair owning > early adoptor. I still really feel that the hardware issues I fought > with delayed my developing software efforts. It was when I went to the > NS* and Netronics Explorer 8085 that I stopped chasing hardware and > started working with higher level languages and system performance. > > > Allison > > >Grant > Wow! I thought I was the only one with one of these! I had a series of Wameco 8080A, EPROM, RAM and the 12 slot mother board before moving to the Explorer-85. That brings back memories. I'm going to visit my parents over the Thanksgiving holidays and will probably go down to the basement and fire up that baby as I do every time I'm home! Atsushi From cc at corti-net.de Fri Nov 9 09:19:35 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:19:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4051 Message-ID: We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media. But how? The simplest would be to write a simple BASIC program that will read in each tape file and send it over V.24 (and back again for new media). I'm looking for a solution that will work with all file types (e.g. SECRET program files). It would be nice if there was a way to program the 4051 in machine language in order to have raw access to the files and its headers. Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 9 09:32:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:32:19 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4051 Message-ID: <47347D83.9060001@bitsavers.org> > We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons > of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out > or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media. But how? I have a box of tapes from Jim Willing that I need to deal with as well. There was a GPIB version of the drive used in the 405x that I have. The service manual goes into more detail than the service manual for the main unit. I also have a couple of the bare drives and had intended to hook them up to the same sort of interface that I've been using to deal with other cassette media. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 9 10:13:03 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:13:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Alpha Micro Phun Machine In-Reply-To: <200711091329.lA9DTJjj001005@keith.ezwind.net> from Bob Bradlee at "Nov 9, 7 08:29:12 am" Message-ID: <200711091613.lA9GD3uM015474@floodgap.com> > > > >http://ampm.floodgap.com/ > Here in Columbus Ohio, the fire departments toys-for-tots program is still > ran on an alpha micro last I knew. Last year I had lunch with and talked > ablut it their system guy. It tracks the kids from year to year > and matches up donated to familys based on age, sex, interests and needs. I know that AMOS was in a lot of vertical markets, and it doesn't surprise me to see a charitable application. I know it was also in quite a few medical and dental offices. Sellam got me some contact information, and I've also had some luck with a few other feelers, so I might be able to get more up soon than the sketchy rudiments I have posted now. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us! --------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 9 10:25:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:25:57 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:19:35 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons > of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out > or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media. But how? > The simplest would be to write a simple BASIC program that will read in > each tape file and send it over V.24 (and back again for new media). If the belts are worn or torn in the cartridge, how is a BASIC program going to help? I think at that point you need to somehow mechanically move the tape over a read head after you've removed the tape from the cartridge or somehow replace the belt in the cartridge. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 10:15:34 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:15:34 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C822C6.8CF82200@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:36:27 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: Commodore PET >>> The last PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard I bought cost me $35. >>> Clearly, there are bargains to be had. $150 is a fair price though. > >> Shhhh! >> I wanna find another Cameron that'll give me $900! >In all seriousness, I think it was worth it and I'm happy to have it. >Wouldn't drop that kind of coin on just anything. More power to ya, I say. The value of this kind of thing is purely subjective, depending solely on what it (and $900) are worth to *you*, and I too feel that there's something very special about that model and the community that grew up around it (especially here in Toronto, Commodore's birthplace and home of Jim Butterfield, TPUG, The Transactor, Batteries Included etc), as opposed to AppleIIs & R-S M1s. Remarkable that TPUG (Toronto PET Users' Group) is still around, and even with some of the original members (although scaled down somewhat from its glory days). Of course it was my 'first' and I have many warm memories and pictures of me and family playing with it, not to mention all the doodads & mods I made for it, so I'm somewhat biased. Then again, from the point of view of the 'collectors' on this list, it should be worth $0... m From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 10:39:16 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:39:16 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C822C6.8E1578E0@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:24:38 +1300 From: Ethan Dicks If someone tried to hack DRAMs in place on a static board, I'll bet that's a mess. I have a 2001-16N board with factory perforations on the high 16K RAM pads that I'd like to eventually reburbish to a full 32K. If you really are interested in finding someone who is willing/able to make that one live once again, I am entirely willing to give it a go. I don't have a shell here, but I already have a 3032 board on the way here from Sweden, so I was planning on trying to build a keyboard adapter of some kind and an XOR-based composite-out adapter with a closed-circuit TV monitor to get it all working. Doing the same for an old PET wouldn't be that much of a stretch (I was planning on using a C2N232 adapter for mass storage, eliminating the need to send down a real floppy drive). -ethan --------Reply: I was going to do the same thing, sort of a PET in an AppleII-type case, but it'll never happen so you're welcome to it. I've also got a keyboard for it (the later version) and video's a no-brainer. I also have a case (no monitor) but I think I'll keep that in case I _do_ decide to do this one day with another less needy mobo. Mind you, the plug-in chips are missing, so by the time you've hacked in a 32K RAM chip and EPROM there wouldn't be much left of the original PET... We'll talk off-list. m From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 10:48:12 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:48:12 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C822C6.8F421200@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:22:41 +0100 From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel Subject: Re: Commodore PET >To think I left a chicklet keyboard pet in a dumpster, just a few years >ago. "Too much stuff, it's just a PET, I can always get another.." >Jos ------------ I probably put it there ;-) Just one of many things I dumpstered before I saw the light; the North Star and CDC terminal I tossed because I only wanted the desks, the Cromemco Z-2 because I only wanted the PS, the calcs I wanted the Nixies and core out of, the Selectric and Diablo printers, Burroughs L, F and E stuff because I figured no one would ever 'collect' one, etc. etc. Regrets, I've had a few... Fortunately I kept my original PET 'cause I was (and still am) using it occasionally. m From john at guntersville.net Fri Nov 9 11:02:48 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:02:48 -0600 Subject: Visual Technologies X terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <473492B8.4070208@guntersville.net> Richard wrote: > In article <4733D1B2.4090405 at guntersville.net>, > "John C. Ellingboe" writes: > > >>I didn't run across that one Chuck, thanks. They do seem to be rather >>spiffy and use ps2 mouse and keyboard from PCs and will probably drive >>most of the vga multisync monitors. As Richard mentioned I will need >>their software and I do have the network to hook them to. They both >>come up in their setup menu and then want to go out on the net for software. > > > Try posting to the newsgroups comp.windows.x and comp.terminals and > see if anyone else has a unit in working condition. They probably > work like NCD units in that they want to use bootp to get the server > downloaded to the terminal. From there you'll have to figure out how > they configure things like fonts, the color database, and the like. Good idea. I hadn't tried other groups yet since I figured this bunch might come up with something pretty quick like. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 11:31:21 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:31:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <47342E96.9040008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20071109173121.BB05356830@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jules Richardson > > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > To think I left a chicklet keyboard pet in a dumpster, just a few years > > ago. "Too much stuff, it's just a PET, I can always get another.." > > We still seem to get them offered to the museum in healthy numbers - including > the chicklet models (and once in a while one of the blue-fronted ones, which I > believe are the earliest). > Also, if it has the 320008 motherboard with working 6540 ROMs and 6550 RAMs made by C= as opposed to later off the shelf 2316B ROMs and 2114 RAMs... Cheers, Bryan > I've never tried actively seeking one out though as there's been no need. > > Finding one that works seems to be the difficult bit - I don't think I've ever > seen one which hasn't required some form of TLC inside. Nasty, clunky, > horrible things they are ;-) > > cheers > > Jules > From cc at corti-net.de Fri Nov 9 11:41:32 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:41:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Richard wrote: > If the belts are worn or torn in the cartridge, how is a BASIC program > going to help? I think at that point you need to somehow mechanically Simple, I take the belt from a new DC600 cartridge. I've many dozens of them but don't worry, I won't use them as belt donors except one of them. This actually works quiet good, the belt seems to have the right tension etc. Christian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 11:48:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:48:20 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47342CE4.28505.FA8DC46@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 16:19, Christian Corti wrote: > We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons > of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out > or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media... Not too long ago, I went around and around with the good-intentioned folks at Imation about DC600 carts and dead belts. Ultimately, after some good efforts, they were unable to help. But they did furnish some valuable information--and cclister CRC dropped a key piece of the puzzle right into place. My Imation contact offered as to how the belts originate as rings punched out of a sheet of polyurethane (he allowed that there was some IP in the formulation that he wasn't at liberty to disclose). A special machine then takes the ring, "flips" it so that instead of a ring, you now have a belt and applies it to the loaded cartridge. At one time, Imation had a one-off manual ring applier, but that's apparently been consigned to the scrap pile for quite awhile. Beyond that, my contact said that it was humanly impossible to manually replicate the operation. Claude sent me a few "Plastibands" which are sold by office supply retailers as a replacement for rubber bands; the big advantage is that they don't degrade with exposure to light and atmospheric ozone. They come in two sizes--2 inch and 4 inch. The 2 inch variety works pretty well in DC-2000 size carts and the 4 inch can be made to work in DC-300/600/6150/6250 etc. carts. I wish the things were a bit wider, or that they came in a 6-inch size, but they do the job. The 2 inch size also works as a replacement drive belt just fine in the Amstrad 3" floppy drive--and will probably last a lot longer than the original. Back to the DC300s--you may find that the belt has done something else that's not quite so simple to solve. With time, the oxide formulation in at least some brands (Scotch is one that I've discovered) has bonded to the drive belt surface better than the mylar tape substrate. Thus, you'll find where the belt has contacted the medium during storage, you have some nice clear spots in the tape. I don't believe that process is reversible. I have a drive and controller that Don Maslin gave me supposedly from a Tek terminal of some sort. It's a Wangtek drive and a like-sized controller board with an 8085 on it. Interfaces on both ends are 50 conductor--if the computer side was something like SASI, it wouldn't surprise me--I've never had to use it. The pinch roller in the drive is in pretty bad shape now, though that could be dealt with without too much trouble, I imagine. I wonder if the drive-side interface isn't QIC-36, which would mean that there are PC-based controllers available for it. Cheers, Chuck From cc at corti-net.de Fri Nov 9 11:52:19 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:52:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: <47347D83.9060001@bitsavers.org> References: <47347D83.9060001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Al Kossow wrote: >> We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons >> of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out >> or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media. But how? > I have a box of tapes from Jim Willing that I need to deal with as well. > There was a GPIB version of the drive used in the 405x that I have. The > service manual goes into more detail than the service manual for the > main unit. I also have a couple of the bare drives and had intended to > hook them up to the same sort of interface that I've been using to deal > with other cassette media. I think that I've already found the solution. I just write a small program to copy all the files onto a CMB 8050 drive! How? Well.. the previous owner (a former high school director) had developed some very fancy extension ROMs for the 4051 with self-written BASIC extensions in machine language etc (around 1983). There are instructions to read or write one physical tape block no matter what type the file is into a string of 256 bytes. The functions are called with CALL "TREAD" and CALL "TWRITE". And there are functions to deal with the Commodore GPIB disk drives (like DIR, SAVE etc.). He even designed a RAM module and corresponding functions to load/store/call machine programs. I will try to write a backup program maybe next week. There are lots of interesting tapes (e.g. games), and I think the ROMs from the cartridges should be dumped, too. Christian From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Fri Nov 9 12:04:10 2007 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:04:10 -0500 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4734A11A.2040804@blueskystudios.com> Tothwolf wrote: > Never used that one myself, but I did use an AST 6pak plus boards in > PC/XT systems. I still have at least two of them kicking around > somewhere (quite likely still installed in some of my IBM PC or XT > systems). > > Are the docs for these boards still available anywhere? I used to have > faxed copies that I got from AST, but those have likely become > completely unreadable by now. I gave my 6-pak Plus docs to Chris M with my PC a while ago. Maybe he still has them. -- Dick Hadsell 914-259-6320 Fax: 914-259-6499 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 44 South Broadway, White Plains, NY 10601 From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Fri Nov 9 12:06:32 2007 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:06:32 -0500 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <20071108194919.H39031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4734A1A8.6090006@blueskystudios.com> Tothwolf wrote: > The AST 6pak Plus was specifically for the IBM PC/XT and compatibles > and only goes up to 640k. There is a bank of dip switches for > selecting the amount of existing system memory. For me, the nicest feature of the 6-pak plus was the clock. -- Dick Hadsell 914-259-6320 Fax: 914-259-6499 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 44 South Broadway, White Plains, NY 10601 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 9 12:09:52 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:09:52 -0800 Subject: Tek 405x tape drives Message-ID: <4734A270.5070201@bitsavers.org> > I have a drive and controller that Don Maslin gave me supposedly from > a Tek terminal of some sort. It's a Wangtek drive and a like-sized > controller board with an 8085 on it. Interfaces on both ends are 50 > conductor--if the computer side was something like SASI, it wouldn't > surprise me--I've never had to use it. The pinch roller in the drive > is in pretty bad shape now, though that could be dealt with without > too much trouble, I imagine. I wonder if the drive-side interface > isn't QIC-36, which would mean that there are PC-based controllers > available for it. -- The tape drive in a 405x predates QIC. The head is fixed in place and uses one track for clock and one for data. It is more similar to digital cassettes than the later QIC drives. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 9 12:15:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:15:04 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4051 Message-ID: <4734A3A8.2070807@bitsavers.org> > I think the ROMs from the cartridges > should be dumped, too. I've dumped the ones that I have, would be a good thing to have copies from another source. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 12:22:25 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:22:25 -0500 Subject: PET IEEE problem (was Commodore PET) Message-ID: <01C822D3.9E7264C0@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:45:36 +1300 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Commodore PET >I got a lot of miles out of that PET. I still have it and it still >fires up (but I think I have an IEEE problem that may turn out to be >cruddy 40-pin sockets on the VLSI I/O chips). Those sockets were indeed a PITA, but another easy-to-overlook problem I ran into with my 8050 disk drive is that if you happen to catch the tip of one of the contacts in the female IEEE connector while plugging in the cable you can easily push it into the connector and out the back, causing an intermittent. m From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 12:24:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:24:26 -0800 Subject: Tek 405x tape drives In-Reply-To: <4734A270.5070201@bitsavers.org> References: <4734A270.5070201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4734355A.1109.FC9E99E@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 10:09, Al Kossow wrote: > The tape drive in a 405x predates QIC. The head is fixed in place and > uses one track for clock and one for data. It is more similar to digital > cassettes than the later QIC drives. The drive I have is a Wangtek 54590, circa 1983 and the head assembly is definitely on a stepper. I wonder what piece of Tek gear it's from then? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 12:32:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:32:36 -0800 Subject: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board In-Reply-To: <4734A1A8.6090006@blueskystudios.com> References: <0JQY00M30H4N0Z99@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, , <4734A1A8.6090006@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <47343744.17668.FD165EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 13:06, Richard Hadsell wrote: > For me, the nicest feature of the 6-pak plus was the clock. I have a Quadram Quadboard from about the same time. It made my 5150 with 64K of DRAM on the planar usable. The clock wasn't bad, nor were the serial ports. It was also possible to use a memory expansion card do at least 64K of "infill" at segment A000. Somewhere, I have a patch to PC-DOS 1.1 to allow it to use the full 704K. I don't know if there was one to allow for 736K if a CGA was used. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 12:42:43 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:42:43 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <200711091023.35436.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> <200711091023.35436.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > obclassiccmp: I'm finishing shooting a short clip about my PDP11. This *will* > be available on YouTube. Yes, the quality is quite good. Yes, I spent a bit > of time and money on lighting and sound. > > Gordon The gota with YouTube is that it is windows/IE only to my knowlage.That leaves out a lot of people here. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 12:47:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:47:35 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <473462D4.50003@mdrconsult.com> References: <473193BE.19835.582AE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <4731B301.1752.5FCCA63@cclist.sydex.com> <47322D8C.9060405@jetnet.ab.ca> <47325A36.80308@jetnet.ab.ca> <473462D4.50003@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4734AB47.8080307@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc Shipley wrote: > > Just for curiosity's sahe. > > Is the discussion of a dedicated, non-PC, programmable serial terminal > dead in the water? I remember the inventers of the PAL chip, had a serial terminal in their book of examples of what to do with PAL's.I think it was only 300 buad how ever, for screen scrolling was in done with the video scanning logic. > > Doc Ben. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 9 12:46:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:46:20 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:42:43 -0700. <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <4734AA23.7040004 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > The gota with YouTube is that it is windows/IE only to my knowlage.That > leaves out a lot of people here. Eh? Youtube is all done with flash. Nothing IE/Windows specific about that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Nov 9 12:45:04 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:45:04 -0500 Subject: Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted. In-Reply-To: <473427FD.7030603@bluewin.ch> References: <473427FD.7030603@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200711091845.lA9Ij700024667@mail.bcpl.net> On 9 Nov 2007 at 10:27, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > Anyone has the above ? Perhaps: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fairchild/_dataSheets/F94xx_dataSheets.pdf ...has what you need? -- Dave From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri Nov 9 12:57:52 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:57:52 +0100 Subject: SGI Sirius Video Breakout Box -- do you need the i/f board? In-Reply-To: <4726773A.1000009@machineroom.info> References: <4726773A.1000009@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <323666472.20071109195752@g-lenerz.de> Hello James, Tuesday, October 30, 2007, 1:13:46 AM, you wrote: > You need the IR GFX set, the sirius card, cables to back panel, cables > to breakout box and the breakout box. The breakout box has some logic > inside so you can't just use the sirius card. Sirius (Card only) + IR (or RE2) is a perfectly valid configuration. How many useful things one can do with that is a different matter, but I think the glossy papers also did offer Sirius for Challenge systems (so even Sirius alone). Currently I have Sirius Video with BOB on a RE2 at home, I just don't have the cables complete right now. The following is a hinv of the machine without BOB installed. If the GFX-Sirius bridge or the BOB are present the installed options are shown in the "Sirius video:" line. > 4 194 MHZ IP25 Processors > CPU: MIPS R10000 Processor Chip Revision: 2.6 > FPU: MIPS R10010 Floating Point Chip Revision: 2.6 > Main memory size: 1024 Mbytes, 1-way interleaved > Instruction cache size: 32 Kbytes > Data cache size: 32 Kbytes > Secondary unified instruction/data cache size: 1 Mbyte > Integral SCSI controller 0: Version WD33C95A, single ended, revision 0 > Tape drive: unit 3 on SCSI controller 0: 8mm(8500) cartridge > CDROM: unit 7 on SCSI controller 0 > Integral SCSI controller 1: Version WD33C95A, differential, revision 0 > Disk drive: unit 1 on SCSI controller 1 > Disk drive: unit 8 on SCSI controller 1 > Disk drive: unit 9 on SCSI controller 1 > Integral SCSI controller 5: Version SCIP/WD33C95A, single ended > Integral SCSI controller 6: Version SCIP/WD33C95A, differential > Integral SCSI controller 7: Version SCIP/WD33C95A, differential > ASO 6-port Serial board 0: revision 2.1.26, Ebus slot 3, IO Adapter 5 > Integral EPC serial ports: 4 > Integral EPC parallel port: Ebus slot 3 > RealityEngineII Graphics Pipe 0 at IO Slot 3 Physical Adapter 2 (Fchip rev 2) > VME 100BaseTX Fast Ethernet: vfe0 > Integral Ethernet controller: et0, Ebus slot 3 > ATM VMA-200E OC-3: VME_bus_adapter 13, VME_A16_base_addr 0xc000, unit 0 > Iris Audio Processor: version A2 revision 1.1.0 unit 0, Ebus slot 3 adapter 5 > I/O board, Ebus slot 3: IO4 revision 1 > Sirius video: unit 0 revision 5 on bus 0 with no options > VME bus: adapter 13 > VME bus: adapter 0 mapped to adapter 13 > EPC external interrupts Consumes 1200W while idling. :-) -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 13:09:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:09:09 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Eh? Youtube is all done with flash. Nothing IE/Windows specific > about that. Off hand I don't see a Mozilla plug in for that. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 13:21:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:21:08 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> <200711091023.35436.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <17972B82-0DAC-4924-BD0A-B0D9B1E7F016@neurotica.com> On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:42 PM, woodelf wrote: >> obclassiccmp: I'm finishing shooting a short clip about my PDP11. >> This *will* be available on YouTube. Yes, the quality is quite >> good. Yes, I spent a bit of time and money on lighting and sound. >> Gordon > The gota with YouTube is that it is windows/IE only to my > knowlage.That > leaves out a lot of people here. Umm, no. I watch YouTube videos all the time, and I don't use Windows. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 13:22:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:22:04 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6C30F2EE-3B02-4084-A1C9-CFA15A873A6C@neurotica.com> On Nov 9, 2007, at 2:09 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Eh? Youtube is all done with flash. Nothing IE/Windows specific >> about that. > Off hand I don't see a Mozilla plug in for that. You aren't looking hard enough. There has even been a Flash player for Solaris on UltraSPARC for years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 9 13:21:55 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:21:55 +0000 Subject: *ON*-topic car question Message-ID: <1194636115.10551.1.camel@elric.inet> At least one version of the Aston Martin Lagonda used CRTs driven by some sort of microcomputer for the dashboard displays. Anyone know anything more about it? Short of scouring eBay and buying such a car (and incurring the wrath of SWMBO) I can't find out much about it. I bet someone here knows though. Gordon From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 13:17:38 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:17:38 -0500 Subject: CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET) Message-ID: <01C822DB.4AD64E00@MSE_D03> ---------- From: Richard[SMTP:legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:33 PM To: M H Stein Subject: Re: Commodore PET [off-list reply] [on-list re-reply for general interest] In article <01C822C6.8F421200 at MSE_D03>, M H Stein writes: > Just one of many things I dumpstered before I saw the light; the North > Star and CDC terminal I tossed because I only wanted the desks, the What "CDC terminal"? ---------------- Reply: Well, "terminal" might not have been accurate; it might have been a console or even something else altogether But it so happens I still have the 'desk' and some of its innards; the model numbers are: Control Data Corporation QSE 1253 Display Controller QSE 1255 Display Equipment Maybe someone on the list knows more. I may be confusing it with an MDS Data entry station which I scrapped for the same reason (I needed a lot of small desks to put computers and terminals on), but I believe it was the CDC unit that had the 3-row rack of cards, mostly populated with house-numbered 10-pin TO-5 ICs and an acoustic delay line for memory, and it was the MDS unit that had the larger boards and the small core memory plane that are all still lying around somewhere in the Chaos Basement. mike From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 9 13:31:02 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:31:02 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> <200711091023.35436.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1194636662.10551.3.camel@elric.inet> On Fri, 2007-11-09 at 11:42 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > obclassiccmp: I'm finishing shooting a short clip about my PDP11. This *will* > > be available on YouTube. Yes, the quality is quite good. Yes, I spent a bit > > of time and money on lighting and sound. > > > > Gordon > The gota with YouTube is that it is windows/IE only to my knowlage.That > leaves out a lot of people here. > Ben. Since when? I've been using YouTube pretty much since it launched, and I've never had a PC running Windows at home. Gordon Sorry Jay, I won't contribute to the OT any further ;-) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 9 13:35:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:35:39 -0700 Subject: CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:17:38 -0500. <01C822DB.4AD64E00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: In article <01C822DB.4AD64E00 at MSE_D03>, M H Stein writes: > What "CDC terminal"? > ---------------- > Reply: > > Well, "terminal" might not have been accurate; it might have been a console > or even something else altogether OK, yeah, CDC mainframes had a really fancy console. I thought you might have been talking about a PLATO terminal, which is why I asked. > But it so happens I still have the 'desk' and some of its innards; the > model numbers are: > > Control Data Corporation > QSE 1253 Display Controller > QSE 1255 Display Equipment Yeah, this looks like a console. I believe they did have an integrated 'desk' into which all the display guts were housed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 13:47:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:47:34 -0800 Subject: CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET) In-Reply-To: <01C822DB.4AD64E00@MSE_D03> References: <01C822DB.4AD64E00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <473448D6.334.10160679@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 14:17, M H Stein wrote: > Control Data Corporation > QSE 1253 Display Controller > QSE 1255 Display Equipment Maybe Billy Petit recognizes this. Before I saw the above, I was about to declare it an Intercom terminal controller (Intercom stations were used for remote job entry). But QSE is CDC parlance for "Quote for Special Equipment" (as opposed to QSS "Quote for Special Software"). Which means that it was a custom-order job, perhaps for a defense customer. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 13:56:44 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:56:44 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4734BB7C.1040204@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> Eh? Youtube is all done with flash. Nothing IE/Windows specific >> about that. > Off hand I don't see a Mozilla plug in for that. I use flash on Mozilla on NetBSD every day. Peace... Sridhar From rickb at bensene.com Fri Nov 9 13:57:07 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:57:07 -0800 Subject: Tek 405x tape drives In-Reply-To: <4734355A.1109.FC9E99E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4734A270.5070201@bitsavers.org> <4734355A.1109.FC9E99E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Probably a Tektronix 4132. These were UNIX workstations based on the National 32016 CPU, running a derivative of Berkeley 4.2 UNIX. The 4132 had a built-in Wangtek QIC-24 drive, with a special interface board (QIC-24 on one end, and SCSI on the other end) made by Adaptec that allowed the drive to sit on the built-in SCSI bus. These drives would use DC300-A tapes. I believe that DC600's would also work, but there were occasional issues with the tapes getting tangled because of the much thinner tape in the DC600 cartridges. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:24 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Tek 405x tape drives > > On 9 Nov 2007 at 10:09, Al Kossow wrote: > > > The tape drive in a 405x predates QIC. The head is fixed in > place and > > uses one track for clock and one for data. It is more similar to > > digital cassettes than the later QIC drives. > > The drive I have is a Wangtek 54590, circa 1983 and the head > assembly is definitely on a stepper. I wonder what piece of > Tek gear it's from then? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 13:57:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:57:35 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <17972B82-0DAC-4924-BD0A-B0D9B1E7F016@neurotica.com> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> <200711091023.35436.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> <17972B82-0DAC-4924-BD0A-B0D9B1E7F016@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4734BBAF.9080903@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> obclassiccmp: I'm finishing shooting a short clip about my PDP11. >>> This *will* be available on YouTube. Yes, the quality is quite >>> good. Yes, I spent a bit of time and money on lighting and sound. >>> Gordon >> The gota with YouTube is that it is windows/IE only to my knowlage.That >> leaves out a lot of people here. > > Umm, no. I watch YouTube videos all the time, and I don't use Windows. I use it on NetBSD myself. Peace... Sridhar From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Nov 9 13:59:54 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:59:54 -0500 Subject: Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted. Message-ID: <200711091959.lA9Jxu9g006331@mail.bcpl.net> On 9 Nov 2007 at 13:44, I wrote: > Perhaps: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fairchild/_dataSheets/F94xx_dataSheets.pdf > > ...has what you need? Alas, it does not. Several interesting 94xx parts, but the 9401 is not one of them. -- Dave From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 14:20:41 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:20:41 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C822E4.193746C0@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:55:34 +0000 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Commodore PET >We still seem to get them offered to the museum in healthy numbers - including >the chicklet models (and once in a while one of the blue-fronted ones, which I >believe are the earliest). >I've never tried actively seeking one out though as there's been no need. >Finding one that works seems to be the difficult bit - I don't think I've ever >seen one which hasn't required some form of TLC inside. Nasty, clunky, >horrible things they are ;-) >cheers >Jules --------Reply: Well, recognizing that this was probably just flame bait, I respectfully disagree. Granted, with time there were problems with poor connectors and failing RAM & ROM chips, but that was common in systems of that day (and still is). In my not-so-humble opinion, the PET's metal case and automobile-style 'hood' ('bonnet' to you), hefty linear power supply, crisp built-in monitor, IEEE port, and its generous supply of other I/O ports, not to mention Commodore's good official support, made it stand out among the Apples and R-S model 1s of the day. Mine _is_ originally one of the blue-front models and it still works fine to this day; the only problems I've had with it is one of the ROMs developing a stuck bit and the occasional dirty connector, and the keyboard contacts need to be cleaned once in a while (and a little rust from Racoons peeing on it while it sat for many years in the garage with a hole in the roof). And, as an aside, it was many years before the mainstream reached the 500MB *per side* of the 8050 and 8250 disk drives (which could use pretty well any diskette you had on hand, soft sector, 10 or 16S hard sector, whatever). Archiving some 25+ year old diskettes recently I had one read error in 20 diskettes (and I could use the computer for playing a fast game or two while formatting or copying diskettes)... m From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 14:25:39 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:25:39 -0500 Subject: *ON*-topic car question In-Reply-To: <1194636115.10551.1.camel@elric.inet> References: <1194636115.10551.1.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0711091225r2401706cve977d23e26c27510@mail.gmail.com> The Wiki entry says the electronics package for the car cost a TON, and, since the CRTs were just used for instrumentation, I'm guessing it was a custom, from-scratch job. The Buick Reatta from the early 90's had a relatively advanced touch-screen computer that controlled A/C, the radio, the trip computer, and a basic calendar. I think it was all custom hardware as well. On Nov 9, 2007 2:21 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > At least one version of the Aston Martin Lagonda used CRTs driven by > some sort of microcomputer for the dashboard displays. Anyone know > anything more about it? > > Short of scouring eBay and buying such a car (and incurring the wrath of > SWMBO) I can't find out much about it. I bet someone here knows though. > > Gordon > > From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 14:44:24 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:44:24 +1100 Subject: Commodore PET References: <01C822E4.193746C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <00a801c82311$51eef490$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Commodore PET > Mine _is_ originally one of the blue-front models and it still works fine > to this day; Ditto here, my 2001 with a blue facia is also branded as a "Hanimex 2001" (Hanimex distributed the earliest models here in Australia). Still works & is in perfect nick internally. Lance // http://www.commodorepet.org // From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 14:53:54 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:53:54 +0000 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <01C822E4.193746C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C822E4.193746C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4734C8E2.7040506@yahoo.co.uk> M H Stein wrote: > Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:55:34 +0000 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: Commodore PET > >> We still seem to get them offered to the museum in healthy numbers - including >> the chicklet models (and once in a while one of the blue-fronted ones, which I >> believe are the earliest). > >> I've never tried actively seeking one out though as there's been no need. > >> Finding one that works seems to be the difficult bit - I don't think I've ever >> seen one which hasn't required some form of TLC inside. Nasty, clunky, >> horrible things they are ;-) > >> cheers > >> Jules > > --------Reply: > Well, recognizing that this was probably just flame bait, I respectfully disagree. > > Granted, with time there were problems with poor connectors and failing RAM > & ROM chips, but that was common in systems of that day (and still is). PETs do seem particularly prone to it though - but then every system tends to have some common failure mode, and the ICs happen to be the PETs. :-( > In my not-so-humble opinion, the PET's metal case and automobile-style 'hood' > ('bonnet' to you), hefty linear power supply, crisp built-in monitor, IEEE port, and its > generous supply of other I/O ports, not to mention Commodore's good official > support, made it stand out among the Apples and R-S model 1s of the day. I think it's not that they're particularly bad, just that I'm failing to see why they've got quite the following that they have (unless this is just another one of those UK/US differences - there were lots of expandable, well-built, well-documented systems around in the UK back in the day, but perhaps that wasn't so true of the US?) On a personal note, the styling never appealed somehow - a dinky monitor physically bolted to a large, squat, angular case with a large footprint just didn't seem too practical. But then I've never been a big fan of all-in-one systems anyway, I suppose - I'd much rather have separate keyboard / display / CPU / drives, and with units that took up vertical space in favour of horizontal. > And, as an aside, it was many years before the mainstream reached the 500MB > *per side* of the 8050 and 8250 disk drives (which could use pretty well any > diskette you had on hand, soft sector, 10 or 16S hard sector, whatever). Granted that does seem pretty good (I assume you mean 500KB ;) - I think Acorn would have been doing 400KB around that time but a lot of the competition (at least in the UK) were aiming at something like half that. I'm not really serious about them being nasty machines (hence the smiley in the original message) - they just don't really 'do' anything for me. But then we all have out *cough* 'pet' systems... ;) (Anyone know the price on a 8250 drive back in the day? I bet they didn't come cheap!) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 9 15:18:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:18:53 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:53:54 +0000. <4734C8E2.7040506@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4734C8E2.7040506 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > I think it's not that they're particularly bad, just that I'm failing to see > why they've got quite the following that they have (unless this is just > another one of those UK/US differences - there were lots of expandable, > well-built, well-documented systems around in the UK back in the day, but > perhaps that wasn't so true of the US?) What "expandable, well-built, well-documented systems around in the UK" were available in 1977/1978? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 9 15:32:35 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:32:35 +1300 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109173121.BB05356830@mail.wordstock.com> References: <47342E96.9040008@yahoo.co.uk> <20071109173121.BB05356830@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20071109213235.GB5298@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 12:31:21PM -0500, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Jules Richardson > > > > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > > To think I left a chicklet keyboard pet in a dumpster, just a few years > > > ago. "Too much stuff, it's just a PET, I can always get another.." > > > > We still seem to get them offered to the museum in healthy numbers - including > > the chicklet models (and once in a while one of the blue-fronted ones, which I > > believe are the earliest). > > > > Also, if it has the 320008 motherboard with working 6540 ROMs and > 6550 RAMs made by C= as opposed to later off the shelf 2316B ROMs > and 2114 RAMs... I know C= made static PETs with 2316s and 2114s, but I've never seen one. All the chiclet-keyboard PETs I've personally laid hands on had 6540s and 6550s. Does anyone have any sort of stats for how many static PETs were made after the switch? And didn't C= offer 8K dynamic PETs for a short time? (16 x 4Kbit DRAMs) In other words, about how many of the later static PETs were made compared to the earlier ones? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -38.6 F (-39.2 C) Windchill -60.3 F (-51.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.5 kts Grid 58 Barometer 693.4 mb (10127 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 15:54:18 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:54:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109213235.GB5298@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20071109215418.1A83856750@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Ethan Dicks > > > > > Also, if it has the 320008 motherboard with working 6540 ROMs and > > 6550 RAMs made by C= as opposed to later off the shelf 2316B ROMs > > and 2114 RAMs... > > I know C= made static PETs with 2316s and 2114s, but I've never seen one. > All the chiclet-keyboard PETs I've personally laid hands on had 6540s and > 6550s. Does anyone have any sort of stats for how many static PETs were > made after the switch? And didn't C= offer 8K dynamic PETs for a short > time? (16 x 4Kbit DRAMs) > DRAM!? In a PET?! That is crazy talk! ;) There was never even DRAM in the C64... Although I believe the SuperCPU used DRAM memory, but that was third-party. I can't find any schematics of PETs on zimmers.net (used to be one funet) that use DRAMs... Cheers, Bryan > In other words, about how many of the later static PETs were made compared > to the earlier ones? > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 16:08:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:08:31 +0000 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4734DA5F.7090202@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <4734C8E2.7040506 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> I think it's not that they're particularly bad, just that I'm failing to see >> why they've got quite the following that they have (unless this is just >> another one of those UK/US differences - there were lots of expandable, >> well-built, well-documented systems around in the UK back in the day, but >> perhaps that wasn't so true of the US?) > > What "expandable, well-built, well-documented systems around in the > UK" were available in 1977/1978? Weren't we well into S100 bus territory by then and all the various systems/boards that went with it? I did actually goof though in thinking that the original PET was 1979 (and so the likes of Acorn and Research Machines cabinets were appearing on the scene) - I didn't realise it was a couple of years earlier. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 9 16:17:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:17:31 +1300 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109215418.1A83856750@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20071109213235.GB5298@usap.gov> <20071109215418.1A83856750@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20071109221731.GB7171@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 04:54:18PM -0500, Bryan Pope wrote: > > I know C= made static PETs with 2316s and 2114s, but I've never seen one. > > All the chiclet-keyboard PETs I've personally laid hands on had 6540s and > > 6550s. Does anyone have any sort of stats for how many static PETs were > > made after the switch? And didn't C= offer 8K dynamic PETs for a short > > time? (16 x 4Kbit DRAMs) > > > > DRAM!? In a PET?! That is crazy talk! ;) I've had a PET with 16x 4116s since 1978, or are you picking on the CBM/PET labelling change? > There was never even DRAM in the C64... What do you call 4164s? (though the C-64/e switched to a pair of 4464s). The VIC-20 was always static, though (5K of 2114s). > I can't find any schematics of PETs on zimmers.net (used to be one funet) > that use DRAMs... Static PET (6550s or 2114s) http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001/index.html Dynamic PET (2001-N) http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001N/index.html DRAM schematic http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001N/320349-5.gif "Universal" PET (40-col, 80-col CTRC...) http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/univ/index.html -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -39.6 F (-39.8 C) Windchill -57.7 F (-49.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.6 kts Grid 60 Barometer 693.5 mb (10123 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 16:22:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:22:14 -0800 Subject: Tek 405x tape drives In-Reply-To: References: <4734A270.5070201@bitsavers.org>, <4734355A.1109.FC9E99E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <47346D16.28463.10A39E92@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 11:57, Rick Bensene wrote: > Probably a Tektronix 4132. These were UNIX workstations based on the > National 32016 CPU, running a derivative of Berkeley 4.2 UNIX. The > 4132 had a built-in Wangtek QIC-24 drive, with a special interface board > (QIC-24 on one end, and SCSI on the other end) made by Adaptec that > allowed the drive to sit on the built-in SCSI bus. I'm 99 and 44/100ths percent certain that's not it. The controller is definitely a Wangtek item (no jumpers on it as one might expect with a SCSI interface), labeled WT05ZK and pretty much the same chip inventory, sans ISA interface, as my Wangtek QIC-36 ISA controller. The EPROM has the legend "Q11/24 9TRK", which I'm taking to mean that the controller supports the 4-track QIC-11 and 9-track QIC-24 standards. I'm guessing that the interface is QIC-36, given the age of the drive and the lack of any "smarts" on its PCB. I've got a Caliper QIC-36 drive here with good innards that I might use to check this. Given that it's a Wangtek controller, I wonder if the output side's not QIC-02. Anyone know of an easy way to tell without toasting the thing? Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 16:22:33 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:22:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <663545.16993.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> There is one. I haven't used any Microsoft products (excluding Notepad, and the Windows 2K OS) on my laptop for the last 6 months. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk woodelf wrote: Richard wrote: > Eh? Youtube is all done with flash. Nothing IE/Windows specific > about that. Off hand I don't see a Mozilla plug in for that. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 16:30:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:30:51 -0800 Subject: Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted. In-Reply-To: <200711091959.lA9Jxu9g006331@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200711091959.lA9Jxu9g006331@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <47346F1B.26015.10AB82A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 14:59, J. David Bryan wrote: > Alas, it does not. Several interesting 94xx parts, but the 9401 is not one > of them. Here's a data sheet: http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/fairchild/74F401.pdf An interesting tidbit as the chip relates to audio equipment in Google books "The Art of Digital Audio" by John Watkinson http://books.google.com/books?id=eVpITJfPxMEC&pg=RA1-PA412&lpg=RA1- PA412&dq=fairchild+9401&source=web&ots=vrYzHso9Lh&sig=FFC4f1pzuiuXtI5i CsC217KfzcM#PRA1-PA412,M1 Interesting device! Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 9 16:17:44 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:17:44 +0000 Subject: PET IEEE problem (was Commodore PET) In-Reply-To: <01C822D3.9E7264C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C822D3.9E7264C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4734DC88.1070604@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/11/2007 18:22, M H Stein wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks >> I got a lot of miles out of that PET. I still have it and it still >> fires up (but I think I have an IEEE problem that may turn out to be >> cruddy 40-pin sockets on the VLSI I/O chips). > > > Those sockets were indeed a PITA, but another easy-to-overlook problem > I ran into with my 8050 disk drive is that if you happen to catch the tip of > one of the contacts in the female IEEE connector while plugging in the cable > you can easily push it into the connector and out the back, causing an > intermittent. Another problem I recall was that it's easy to damage the 6820s in a PET, by plugging some user-port devices into the IEEE port or vice versa (I can't remember which was more likely to upset things). We used to fix it by replacing the damaged 6520 with a Motorola 6821, which is a pin-compatible replacement, but seemed in practice to be more robust. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 9 16:32:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:32:50 +1300 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109221731.GB7171@usap.gov> References: <20071109213235.GB5298@usap.gov> <20071109215418.1A83856750@mail.wordstock.com> <20071109221731.GB7171@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20071109223250.GA8945@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 11:17:31AM +1300, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've had a PET with 16x 4116s since 1978... 1979. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at 22:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -37.7 F (-38.7 C) Windchill -54.4 F (-48.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.2 kts Grid 45 Barometer 693.6 mb (10119 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 9 16:46:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:46:18 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:08:31 +0000. <4734DA5F.7090202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4734DA5F.7090202 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > > What "expandable, well-built, well-documented systems around in the > > UK" were available in 1977/1978? > > Weren't we well into S100 bus territory by then and all the various > systems/boards that went with it? The PET was a complete single integrated unit that you could sit down at and start typing and get work done. An S-100 based system usually requires that you buy all the pieces separately and put them together yourself. Very daunting for someone to go through in 1978. In the US, I think the Sphere had the single-integrated-unit concept down before the PET, but it didn't take off for whatever reason. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 9 16:33:15 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:33:15 +0000 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109215418.1A83856750@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20071109215418.1A83856750@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4734E02B.3040507@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/11/2007 21:54, Bryan Pope wrote: > DRAM!? In a PET?! That is crazy talk! ;) There was never even DRAM in > the C64... Although I believe the SuperCPU used DRAM memory, but that > was third-party. Over here, the original 2001 (with the chicklet keyboard) was succeeded briefly by a similar model still with SRAM but with a "proper" keyboard, and that was succeeded by the 3000 series and then 4000 series, both of which used 4116 DRAMs, with model numbers 3016, 3032, 4016, and 4032 according to whether they had 16K or 32K. Almost all the 40-column PETs I've seen from around 1978/79-1982 had 4116 DRAM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 9 16:33:37 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:33:37 +0000 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4734E041.7@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/11/2007 19:09, woodelf wrote: > Richard wrote: >> Eh? Youtube is all done with flash. Nothing IE/Windows specific >> about that. > Off hand I don't see a Mozilla plug in for that. My "about:plugins" says: Shockwave Flash File name: C:\WINDOWS\system32\Macromed\Flash\NPSWF32.dll Shockwave Flash 9.0 r47 I downloaded it from Adobe's website, which was, incidentally, the first hit Google found for "flash plugin". This machine is running Windows, but there are versions for Linux, Solaris, and other OSs as well. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 9 16:51:27 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:51:27 -0800 Subject: Fairchild 9401 Message-ID: <4734E46F.6060705@bitsavers.org> It's in the 1976 macrologic book http://bitsavers.org/pdf/fairchild/_dataBooks/1976_Fairchild_Macrologic.pdf From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 9 16:52:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:52:03 +1300 Subject: PET IEEE problem (was Commodore PET) In-Reply-To: <4734DC88.1070604@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01C822D3.9E7264C0@MSE_D03> <4734DC88.1070604@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20071109225203.GA9755@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 10:17:44PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Another problem I recall was that it's easy to damage the 6820s in a > PET, by plugging some user-port devices into the IEEE port or vice versa > (I can't remember which was more likely to upset things). Hmm... I think I've escaped that particular damage, myself, but it's good to know about. > We used to > fix it by replacing the damaged 6520 with a Motorola 6821, which is a > pin-compatible replacement, but seemed in practice to be more robust. Indeed. I have 6821s lying about, but few spare 6520s. While debugging my IEEE problems, I did try that swap, but no improvement. My plan is to replace the leaf-contact sockets with turned-pin sockets when I am in front of that PET again. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at 22:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -38.2 F (-39.0 C) Windchill -53.1 F (-47.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.5 kts Grid 59 Barometer 693.7 mb (10116 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 17:29:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:29:39 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734E041.7@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4734B055.6080707@jetnet.ab.ca> <4734E041.7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4734ED63.5090205@jetnet.ab.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I downloaded it from Adobe's website, which was, incidentally, the first > hit Google found for "flash plugin". This machine is running Windows, > but there are versions for Linux, Solaris, and other OSs as well. Well I got flash, but It don't say a thing about YouTube. It seems to work. Ben alias Woodelf PS.I'd sooner take a CD with a real video clip. What era is a modern serial terminal? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 9 17:31:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:31:58 -0700 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:29:39 -0700. <4734ED63.5090205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <4734ED63.5090205 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Well I got flash, but It don't say a thing about YouTube. Why would flash say anything about youtube? Youtube is just one of the millions of web sites that use flash. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 9 17:33:46 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:33:46 -0000 Subject: Oddball hard drive failure... References: <4733A4F6.3020103@yahoo.co.uk> <4734322E.9000405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00c401c82328$f9969b00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I don't think it's a failure mode I've ever seen mentioned on >the list before. I wonder it's it's one that's going to become >more and more common as the drives age, though? :-( I've never heard of this exact problem before either, but I do recall a similar incident back in the early days of IDE. Conner introduced a new line of drives, which after just a few months of use started crashing en-masse. Seems they'd painted the arms on which the heads were mounted, and said paint was flaking off.... TTFN - Pete. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 17:48:54 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:48:54 -0500 Subject: CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET) Message-ID: <01C82301.4E369AC0@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:47:34 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET) On 9 Nov 2007 at 14:17, M H Stein wrote: > Control Data Corporation > QSE 1253 Display Controller > QSE 1255 Display Equipment Maybe Billy Petit recognizes this. Before I saw the above, I was about to declare it an Intercom terminal controller (Intercom stations were used for remote job entry). But QSE is CDC parlance for "Quote for Special Equipment" (as opposed to QSS "Quote for Special Software"). Which means that it was a custom-order job, perhaps for a defense customer. Cheers, Chuck ---------Reply: Makes sense. Assuming I'm looking at the right PCB rack it's pretty modular; the cards all look pretty well the same and it also had a quite large and some smaller diode matrix boards, so I guess with the right cards, backplane wiring and diode placement you could make it do pretty well anything. Defence? In Canada? We're your peace-lovin' neighbour who welcomes our enemies with open arms (and without the kind of arms you carry down there)... m From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 17:53:09 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:53:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <4734ED63.5090205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <850623.67446.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Define a CD with a real video clip. If you could watch a video with *just* a CD I'd pay handsomely for that CD! All video is in some format or other (MPEG, FLV etc.) and needs software to decode it. In the case of YouTube Flash is what is used (also makes saving video's to your computer harder, but not impossible). Flash can be used for just about anything (games, video's, music (?) etc.) What was the first computer to have any type of video? I'm guessing that the Philips CDi, Panasonic/Goldstar 3DO and Amiga CD32 were some of the first consoles to feature CD-based video. Some Megadrive hackers (and former C64 programmers) hacked some carts to include (green) monochrome video at the start. The awful game Rise Of The Robots on the SNES (cartridge-based games console) featured video too, albeit a very small size (100x75?). When I say video clips, I'm thinking 25 FPS (frames per second) or more. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk woodelf wrote: Well I got flash, but It don't say a thing about YouTube. It seems to work. Ben alias Woodelf PS.I'd sooner take a CD with a real video clip. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 18:01:59 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:01:59 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C82303.1F08BEC0@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:53:54 +0000 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Commodore PET > In my not-so-humble opinion, the PET's metal case and automobile-style 'hood' > ('bonnet' to you), hefty linear power supply, crisp built-in monitor, IEEE port, and its > generous supply of other I/O ports, not to mention Commodore's good official > support, made it stand out among the Apples and R-S model 1s of the day. I think it's not that they're particularly bad, just that I'm failing to see why they've got quite the following that they have (unless this is just another one of those UK/US differences - there were lots of expandable, well-built, well-documented systems around in the UK back in the day, but perhaps that wasn't so true of the US?) On a personal note, the styling never appealed somehow - a dinky monitor physically bolted to a large, squat, angular case with a large footprint just didn't seem too practical. But then I've never been a big fan of all-in-one systems anyway, I suppose - I'd much rather have separate keyboard / display / CPU / drives, and with units that took up vertical space in favour of horizontal. ---------------- MHS: Well, that 'splains everything; I'm a horizontal kind of guy and bemoan the trend for PCs to go from AT style to towers; they're coming back to horizontal but now they're too small to put any drives into. Then again, once you put your TV set or monitor on top of your Apple it didn't look much different; just a fuzzier display and some extra cables. But a PET sure wasn't as easy to carry over to a friend's house to play with, I'll grant you that. To each his/her own as far as styling goes, but it did look more like a 'computer' (i.e. terminal), at least after that very first graphic kbd/tape drive version. The BM in CBM did stand for Business Machines after all... ======== > And, as an aside, it was many years before the mainstream reached the 500MB > *per side* of the 8050 and 8250 disk drives (which could use pretty well any > diskette you had on hand, soft sector, 10 or 16S hard sector, whatever). Granted that does seem pretty good (I assume you mean 500KB ;) - I think Acorn would have been doing 400KB around that time but a lot of the competition (at least in the UK) were aiming at something like half that. ----------------- Oops; a small glitch in the 1/2 MB to 500K conversion... ======== I'm not really serious about them being nasty machines (hence the smiley in the original message) - they just don't really 'do' anything for me. But then we all have out *cough* 'pet' systems... ;) (Anyone know the price on a 8250 drive back in the day? I bet they didn't come cheap!) cheers Jules ----------------- Well, yes, there is that; $2000+... But they were meant for someone who could write them off their taxes... m From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 18:46:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:46:42 -0800 Subject: CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET) In-Reply-To: <01C82301.4E369AC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C82301.4E369AC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <47348EF2.1670.2BA3BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 18:48, M H Stein wrote: > Defence? In Canada? We're your peace-lovin' neighbour who welcomes > our enemies with open arms (and without the kind of arms you carry > down there)... I did time in CDC Special Systems; most of the customers had a vaguely military flavor about them, but there were banks and such who also had their own QSE needs. Generally, a QSE wasn't a special "from the ground up", but rather a regular product that had been modified to meet the customer's needs. It was a lucrative part of the business for CDC. Getting manuals for the darned things was a real bother--and when you finally got one, it was usually an Ozalid copy, which probably means that any copies that existed 30 years ago have faded beyond recognition. I looked around the web for a photo of a typical Intercom setup, but couldn't find anything. IIRC (and this was a long time ago), the display would have been uppercase, 6-bit characters, 64 characters per line and maybe 16 lines, white phosphor. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 18:49:57 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:49:57 -0700 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <850623.67446.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <850623.67446.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47350035.3060306@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Burton wrote: > Define a CD with a real video clip. If you could watch a video with *just* a CD I'd pay handsomely for that CD! > > All video is in some format or other (MPEG, FLV etc.) and needs software to decode it. In the case of YouTube Flash is what is used (also makes saving video's to your computer harder, but not impossible). Flash can be used for just about anything (games, video's, music (?) etc.) > > What was the first computer to have any type of video? I'm guessing that the Philips CDi, Panasonic/Goldstar 3DO and Amiga CD32 were some of the first consoles to feature CD-based video. > Some Megadrive hackers (and former C64 programmers) hacked some carts to include (green) monochrome video at the start. The awful game Rise Of The Robots on the SNES (cartridge-based games console) featured video too, albeit a very small size (100x75?). > When I say video clips, I'm thinking 25 FPS (frames per second) or more. The PC had a good video output with a TARGA frame grabber card, and that was the late 1980's. That was 512 pixels across NTSC scan rates. > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 19:00:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:00:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Nov 8, 7 11:32:27 pm Message-ID: > > Talking about CRTs, I beleieve across the Pond, the electodes are called > > 'cathode', 'grid 1', 'grid 2'.... 'anode'. Over here they're 'cathode' > > 'grid'. 'anode 1' (or 'first anode'), 'anode 2' ('second anode')... (the > > last one, the aquadaq coating inside the flare, connected to the EHT > > supply, is called the 'final anode' most of the time). > > Usually the grid is called Wehnelt cylinder because of its inventor and > its shape. Although I've seen that term in books in the UK, it's not common (and I don't think I'ev seen a service manual, as opposed to a book on design, that uses it). In the UK it's normally just called the 'grid' or 'control grid' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 19:04:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:04:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <20071108152534.R26884@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 8, 7 03:26:50 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > sounds wrong). But the only time you'll see the word 'condenser' used is > > in old books and in one old radio magazine that insistes on using the old > > terms (including 'cylces per second' for 'hertz'). > > It is still in common usage to refer to the capacitor used in automotive > distributors Yes, but how common are LT contact breakers these days? Heck, most modenr cars over here have a coil-per-plug (or at least a coil for every pair of plugs, with a 'weated spark' occuring at a plug in a cylinder at the top of the exhaust stroke), so no distributor at all. That said, the workshop manaul I've just picked up (for a 1972 Rover P6) refers to the component as the capacitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 19:16:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:16:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at Nov 8, 7 07:20:44 pm Message-ID: > > On Nov 8, 2007 12:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 1 bit (ALU width for binary operations) > > 3 bits (Phyiscial width of user program RAM) > > 4 bits (ALU width for BCD operations) > > 6 bits (Logical width of user program RAM) > > 8 bits (physiical width of user data RAM) > > 16 bits (physical size of registers, ROM width, logical width of data RAM) > > Does it have a separate ALU for binary and BCD operations, or does it > just ignore the upper 3 bits of the BCD ALU in each stage of a binary > operation? If so, I'd probably call it a 4 bitter. > The ALU is a pair of programmed 256 nybble ROMs. One of them handles binary operations and the low bit of BCD operations, the other handles the high 3 bits of BCD operations (that's a simplification, if you want to see the scheamtics, grab 'my' scheamtics for the HP9810 from hpmuseum.net and look at the data path board). There are a couple of D-types hung off said ROMs for the binary and BCD carry flags. Actually, since the programmer-accessible registers are almost all 16 bits long (A and B accumulaotrs, P program counter, etc) and since the only thing that bothers about the fact that it's a bit-serial machine is the microcode, it's normally classed as a 16 bit (albeit bit serial) machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 19:39:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:39:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted. In-Reply-To: <473427FD.7030603@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Nov 9, 7 10:27:25 am Message-ID: > > > Anyone has the above ? > > It is a 14 pin TTL IC, according to google some sort of CRC generator. > It is part of the mididisk controller of the ETH Lilith, which I am > reverse engineering. Philips/Signetics second-sourced it, and I have the datasheet in front of me. There's also the Signetics 8X01A, which is similar, but with the extra feautre of beign able to do the SDLC-specificed patern match. It's a fairly common device in old discrete-ish logic disk controllers Anyway, here's a pinout and some notes 1 : CP/ 2 : P 3 : S0 4 : MR 5 : S1 6 : N/C (Pattern Match Enable on 8X01A) 7 : Ground 8 : S2 9 : N/C 10 : CWE 11 : D 12 : Q 13 : ER 14 : Vcc Where : CP/ = Clock Pulse Input (falling edge triggered) D = Data input Q = Data Output CWE = Check Word Enable. basiucally. this is held high while data bits are applied to the D input, the polynomial value is calculated in an inteernal shift register. Then CWE is taken low and the contents of this regiser shifted out on the Q output. MR = Mater Reset P = Presett (polynomal register to apporpriate value) ER = Error flag output S2...S0 = Polynomial select inputs. Reading these as an octal digit (S2 is the MSB), the polynomailas are : 0 : X^16 + X^15 + X^2 +1 (CRC-16) 1 : X^16 + X^14 + X + 1 (CRC-16 Reverse) 2 : X^16 + X^15 + X^13 + X^7 + X^4 + X^2 + X + 1 3 : X^12 + X^11 + X^3 + X^2 + X + 1 (CRC-12) 4 : X^8 + X^7 + X^5 + X^4 + X + 1 5 : X^8 + 1 (LRC-8) 6 : X^16 + X^12 + X^5 + 1 (CRC-CCITT) 7 : X^16 + X^11 +X^4 +1 (CRC-CCITT Reverse) Hope that helps. There's not much more in the data sheet other than tables of timeing and electical characteristics, which you probably don't need. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 19:49:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:49:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: <47342CE4.28505.FA8DC46@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 9, 7 09:48:20 am Message-ID: > I have a drive and controller that Don Maslin gave me supposedly from > a Tek terminal of some sort. It's a Wangtek drive and a like-sized > controller board with an 8085 on it. Interfaces on both ends are 50 > conductor--if the computer side was something like SASI, it wouldn't I'll bet the host interface side is QIC-02, and that the interface between the cotnroller and drive is QIC-36. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 19:52:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:52:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek 405x tape drives In-Reply-To: <4734A270.5070201@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Nov 9, 7 10:09:52 am Message-ID: > The tape drive in a 405x predates QIC. The head is fixed in place and > uses one track for clock and one for data. It is more similar to digital > cassettes than the later QIC drives. I thought, from a brief look at a friend's 4052 service manual (how I wish I had a 405x myself...), that it was 2 tracks, a transition on one is a '0' and a transition on the other is a '1' (And a transition on both together is a marker?). _Very_ like the BMS digital cassetes I use. -tony From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Nov 9 20:09:22 2007 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:09:22 -0600 Subject: Commodore PET References: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> <20071109055932.GB24490@usap.gov> Message-ID: <000401c8233e$b5b34b70$6401a8c0@ASUS32> 66049 here :) I'd like a shipping quote too! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "Golan Klinger" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 11:59 PM Subject: Re: Commodore PET > On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 11:37:52PM -0500, Golan Klinger wrote: >> Anyone want SuperPETs? I just bought five more. > > Where are you located? I'd want one shipped to 43232. I have the boards > from a SuperPET, but as spare, not a SuperPET itself. > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Nov-2007 at > 05:50 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -42.5 F (-41.4 C) Windchill -66.5 F (-54.7 > C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 87 Barometer 691.3 mb (10205 > ft) > > Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.26/1119 - Release Date: > 11/8/2007 5:55 PM > > From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 9 20:23:18 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:23:18 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <47336957.3040203@oldskool.org> <20071109070635.GB21732@darwin.ugr.es> <200711091023.35436.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47351616.7090402@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> obclassiccmp: I'm finishing shooting a short clip about my PDP11. >> This *will* be available on YouTube. Yes, the quality is quite good. >> Yes, I spent a bit of time and money on lighting and sound. >> >> Gordon > The gota with YouTube is that it is windows/IE only to my knowlage.That > leaves out a lot of people here. I was watching it with Solaris 10 x86 yesterday (Developer Express), and Linux, and Mac OSX... But anyway, I did provide an MPEG-1 so surely any Pentium 133 or better can play it back... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 9 20:27:16 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:27:16 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <850623.67446.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <850623.67446.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47351704.207@oldskool.org> Andrew Burton wrote: > Define a CD with a real video clip. If you could watch a video with *just* a CD I'd pay handsomely for that CD! Like a VideoCD? (ducking) > What was the first computer to have any type of video? I'm guessing that the Philips CDi, Panasonic/Goldstar 3DO and Amiga CD32 were some of the first consoles to feature CD-based video. > Some Megadrive hackers (and former C64 programmers) hacked some carts to include (green) monochrome video at the start. The awful game Rise Of The Robots on the SNES (cartridge-based games console) featured video too, albeit a very small size (100x75?). > When I say video clips, I'm thinking 25 FPS (frames per second) or more. 25fps or faster is a tall order -- CDI might be the first console-thingy to have it on a standardized basis, but a year earlier in 1991, I was watching quarter-screen streaming 30fps video in the form of http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/sherlock-holmes-consulting-detective That's the earliest 24+ fps example I can think of. Video for Windows came out in 1992 and even the CDROM distribution of it only had 15fps video clips. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 9 20:27:50 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:27:50 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <47350035.3060306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <850623.67446.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <47350035.3060306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47351726.40007@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > The PC had a good video output with a TARGA frame grabber card, and that > was the late 1980's. > That was 512 pixels across NTSC scan rates. But that was a single-frame framegrabber, not motion video IIRC... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bear at typewritten.org Fri Nov 9 20:37:03 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:37:03 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: <47342CE4.28505.FA8DC46@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47342CE4.28505.FA8DC46@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:48 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At one time, Imation had a one-off manual ring applier, but that's > apparently been consigned to the scrap pile for quite awhile. Beyond > that, my contact said that it was humanly impossible to manually > replicate the operation. I wonder which operation he was referring to? I personally have successfully transplanted intact bands from donor tapes to DC600 cartridges with broken bands. It's a massive headache to get it done, but it's possible. The last one I did (a Lisp carry tape) had to be respooled, too. Ugh. ok bear From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 20:40:26 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:40:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4733D4E2.4080709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <297283.1435.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Long time since I played on my Megadrive, and long since forgotten the system's stats, though I'm sure I could dig it up looking through my old official (UK) Sega magazines :) Wasn't there different manufacturers of 68000's? I know the original was created by Motorola, but I can't say for sure whether the one Sega used was by them. Just incase anyone wondered (or perhaps not!), the SNES was actually an 8-bit machine with a "crazy chip" (think I got that quote right, been a long time since I read "Game Over" by David Scheff). I'd love to know how mode 7 worked (for 3D-ish racing games like Mario Kart and F-Zero), as it couldn't do 3D polygon graphics until the SFX (Super Effects) chip was created (presumably just some sort of maths co-processor?) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sridhar Ayengar wrote: David Griffith wrote: *>> snip <<* > > Hmm... So, why was the Sega Genesis billed as a 16-bit machine? It uses a > 68k. If memory serves, because it has a 16-bit graphics pipeline. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 9 20:44:15 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:44:15 +1300 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <47351704.207@oldskool.org> References: <850623.67446.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <47351704.207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20071110024415.GB19628@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 08:27:16PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Andrew Burton wrote: > >Define a CD with a real video clip. If you could watch a video with *just* > >a CD I'd pay handsomely for that CD! > > Like a VideoCD? (ducking) Or a CD-V? I have one of those - it's 4 or-so CDDA audio tracks plus one analog laserdisc-compatible video track. It plays in Pioneer Laserdisc/audio CD combo players - none of my laserdisc players accept CD-sized media, but I knew someone who had the right model of player, so I was able to watch it once. The audio tracks are standard and do play in pretty much anything (computer, dedicated audio player...) that handles audio CDs. It's a bizarre format - I don't think they pressed many discs like it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Nov-2007 at 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -41.6 F (-40.9 C) Windchill -54.7 F (-48.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.8 kts Grid 88 Barometer 693.8 mb (10112 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 9 20:51:08 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:51:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <47351704.207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Ok, I'll trump your VCD with... Laserdisc That must have been played with some sort of computer, right? Not had a laserdisc or laserdisc player myself, but allegedly laserdiscs were still being made up until around 2000 give or take a year or so. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Jim Leonard wrote: Andrew Burton wrote: > Define a CD with a real video clip. If you could watch a video with *just* a CD I'd pay handsomely for that CD! Like a VideoCD? (ducking) From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 9 20:55:12 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:55:12 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47351D90.1050403@oldskool.org> Andrew Burton wrote: > Ok, I'll trump your VCD with... > > Laserdisc I was going to trump your laserdisc with CED, but I was surprised during research that laserdisc was available for consumer purchase December 1978. CED was developed beforehand, but available in 1981. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 9 21:07:53 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 21:07:53 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <47351D90.1050403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <004401c82346$e3873130$6b00a8c0@JWEST> >> Ok, I'll trump your VCD with... >> >> Laserdisc Is this thread somewhat vaguely related to classic computing? From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 9 21:14:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:14:30 +1300 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <47351704.207@oldskool.org> <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071110031430.GA21386@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 02:51:08AM +0000, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Ok, I'll trump your VCD with... > > Laserdisc > > That must have been played with some sort of computer, right? Not necessarily (unless you count microcontrollers inside a dedicated video player). Most videodisc players are standalone - they have buttons on the front like a VCR or DVD player, and may have a remote control. They are little more than video playback devices for watching movies. Some videodisc players are designed for interactive use and have a parallel or serial input port, but the computer only sends start/stop/seek commands to the player. The player still squirts out NTSC (or PAL?) video to a monitor, not digitized frames to the controlling computer. Those models can typically be controlled via front-panel buttons even when a computer is not attached. > Not had a laserdisc or laserdisc player myself, but allegedly laserdiscs were still being made up until around 2000 give or take a year or so. I have several laserdisc players and several laserdiscs (most are just movies, but some are designed for interactive multimedia kiosks and videogames (Dragon's Lair, Space Ace...) In either 2002 or 2003, I bought a new, remastered Dragon's Lair videodisc. Those of us who bought it were told that it was the last thing off the presses before the last company shut down their line. One of these days, I'm going to get around to buying or building a Dragon's Lair cabinet, but for now, it plays fine on a LD player attached to a computer. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Nov-2007 at 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.2 F (-40.1 C) Windchill -59.5 F (-50.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.1 kts Grid 94 Barometer 693.6 mb (10119 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 9 21:18:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:18:07 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: References: , <47342CE4.28505.FA8DC46@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4734B26F.18362.B6442E@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2007 at 18:37, r.stricklin wrote: > I wonder which operation he was referring to? I personally have > successfully transplanted intact bands from donor tapes to DC600 > cartridges with broken bands. It's a massive headache to get it done, > but it's possible. The last one I did (a Lisp carry tape) had to be > respooled, too. Ugh. Remember, the Imation guy was talking about going from a flat punched- out ring of polyurethane and stretching it to make a drive belt. I think I can appreciate that. Belts removed from existing cartridges have had the operation already performed on them. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 9 21:50:08 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:50:08 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 29 Message-ID: <01C82323.02C74360@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:54:18 -0500 (EST) From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Subject: Re: Commodore PET >DRAM!? In a PET?! That is crazy talk! ;) There was never even DRAM in >the C64... Although I believe the SuperCPU used DRAM memory, but that >was third-party. -------- Say what? AFAIK all their stuff used DRAM except for the first two 8K versions and the oddball VIC-20 (or VolksComputer as it was known in Germany to avoid the connotations of a certain homonym of VIC, pronounced 'fick' in German...), which they probably produced to use up 2114s left over from the old PETs ;-) I've never owned or seen any 8K PETs other than the 6540/6550 version, but as Ethan says there was a 2114 version with industry-standard ROMS; >=16K units were all DRAM AFAIK. Once DRAM caught on it didn't make economic sense to use SRAM in any quantity; look at S-100 boards. m From gklinger at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 22:12:14 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:12:14 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <000401c8233e$b5b34b70$6401a8c0@ASUS32> References: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> <20071109055932.GB24490@usap.gov> <000401c8233e$b5b34b70$6401a8c0@ASUS32> Message-ID: For both the friendly list participants and the two doubting Thomases who kindly took the time to email me to call me a liar (no SuperPETs for you!), I have taken some photographs. You can find them at the following URL: I'll direct your attention to the fourth picture. Two of the SuperPETs contain those "Super OS/9 M.M.U." boards produced by the Toronto PET Users Group (TPUG) [1] back in 1985 and if memory serves, they allow for bitmapped graphics on the SuperPET. They are somewhat rare and I'm not even sure if we (TPUG) have one in our inventory. I'm going to make some inquiries as well as have a closer look at the board and I'll post about it later. I may end up attempting to clone the board and if I'm able to, I'll make them available to TPUG members at cost (everyone is welcome to join, hint hint.) Oh, I almost forgot, a SuperPET with the board will be on display at the World of Commodore 2007 [2]. I hope to see some of you there. That's it for now. [1] [2] P.S. I got a lot more email about these than I expected. I will respond to almost everyone. Just give me a little time please. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 9 22:18:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:18:38 +1300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <01C82323.02C74360@MSE_D03> References: <01C82323.02C74360@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20071110041838.GA24267@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 10:50:08PM -0500, M H Stein wrote: > AFAIK all their stuff used DRAM except for the first two 8K versions and the > oddball VIC-20 (or VolksComputer as it was known in Germany to avoid the > connotations of a certain homonym of VIC, pronounced 'fick' in German...), > which they probably produced to use up 2114s left over from the old PETs ;-) I think *all* PETs used 2114s for the video memory at $8000. The 2016 or 6116 wasn't out early enough to get worked into them, plus, from the tales of the Jack Trameil days, I'm sure they had trainloads of 2114s and were ordered to use them up rather than engineer in a new part. The 1540 and later floppy drives, though, _did_ use 2016/6116 SRAMs rather than 2114s, possibly just to have enough RAM to be useful and still fit inside the drive case. > I've never owned or seen any 8K PETs other than the 6540/6550 version, > but as Ethan says there was a 2114 version with industry-standard ROMS; And I _think_ they sold a few 8K PETs with 4kbit DRAMs, but those weren't very popular. Certainly the manufacturing margins were minimal compared to what they could get for a 16K PET using eight 4116s and everything else being identical. > >=16K units were all DRAM AFAIK. Once DRAM caught on it didn't make > economic sense to use SRAM in any quantity; look at S-100 boards. Sure. By the time of the 16K and 32K PETs, there were early examples of 8kbit SRAMs, but those only made economic sense in certain niches. Just look up how much of the motherboard in an 4K/8K PET is RAM vs a 16K/32K PET... between package count and package size, the economics of fields of SRAM vs DRAM are obvious. Using DRAMs for 16K, 32K, 48K, 64K... is an especially big win on designs like the Apple II where the video circuit provides "free" refresh. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Nov-2007 at 04:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.7 F (-40.4 C) Windchill -60.4 F (-51.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.2 kts Grid 94 Barometer 693.5 mb (10123 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 9 22:23:25 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 21:23:25 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:12:14 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Golan Klinger" writes: > For both the friendly list participants and the two doubting Thomases > who kindly took the time to email me to call me a liar (no SuperPETs > for you!), I have taken some photographs. You can find them at the > following URL: > > Damn, those things look like you just took them out of the box! ;-) > I'll direct your attention to the fourth picture. Two of the SuperPETs > contain those "Super OS/9 M.M.U." boards produced by the Toronto PET > Users Group (TPUG) [1] back in 1985 and if memory serves, they allow > for bitmapped graphics on the SuperPET. That's cool! This is the first I've heard of bitmapped graphics on the PET. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From gklinger at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 22:36:52 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:36:52 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Richard wrote: > Damn, those things look like you just took them out of the box! ;-) They are lovely, aren't they? They were kept in a storeroom under custom made leather covers for 20+ years so they're as near to mint as any SuperPET I've ever seen. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 23:11:24 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:11:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109221731.GB7171@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20071110051124.7DBAE567F6@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Ethan Dicks > > On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 04:54:18PM -0500, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > I know C= made static PETs with 2316s and 2114s, but I've never seen one. > > > All the chiclet-keyboard PETs I've personally laid hands on had 6540s and > > > 6550s. Does anyone have any sort of stats for how many static PETs were > > > made after the switch? And didn't C= offer 8K dynamic PETs for a short > > > time? (16 x 4Kbit DRAMs) > > > > > > > DRAM!? In a PET?! That is crazy talk! ;) > > I've had a PET with 16x 4116s since 1978, or are you picking on the CBM/PET > labelling change? > No.., I have just realized I am an idiot.. > > There was never even DRAM in the C64... > > What do you call 4164s? (though the C-64/e switched to a pair of 4464s). > I have still much to learn... > The VIC-20 was always static, though (5K of 2114s). > > > I can't find any schematics of PETs on zimmers.net (used to be one funet) > > that use DRAMs... > > Static PET (6550s or 2114s) > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001/index.html > > Dynamic PET (2001-N) > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001N/index.html > > DRAM schematic > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/2001N/320349-5.gif > > "Universal" PET (40-col, 80-col CTRC...) > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/univ/index.html Thank-you.. You are very much correct in saying there were dynamic RAM PETs... Cheers, Bryan From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 23:15:39 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:15:39 +1100 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com><47351D90.1050403@oldskool.org> <004401c82346$e3873130$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <004101c82358$bd7b2e80$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 2:07 PM Subject: Re: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) >>> Ok, I'll trump your VCD with... >>> >>> Laserdisc > > Is this thread somewhat vaguely related to classic computing? > Actually laserdiscs certainly are - there was an aracde machine based on the Amiga chipset back in the 80's that used a laserdisc player. Also OS/2 had support for laserdiscs & that is now well & truly vintage software (earlier releases anyway). cheers, Lance // www.commodorepet.org www.commodore128.org // From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 00:09:07 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:09:07 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <004401c82346$e3873130$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <47351D90.1050403@oldskool.org> <004401c82346$e3873130$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <51ea77730711092209m8735747q3957eb2da6e134a4@mail.gmail.com> On 11/9/07, Jay West wrote: > >> Laserdisc > > Is this thread somewhat vaguely related to classic computing? OK I'll bring it back around.....during VCF Midwest I saw a DEC-branded Laserdisc unit at Pat's computer wonderland. Anyone know what it was used for? Was it just some sort of computer-based training software than run under VMS, or something more interesting? Never seen one before or since. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Nov 10 00:38:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:38:08 +1300 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071110063808.GA31194@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 09:23:25PM -0700, Richard wrote: > > I'll direct your attention to the fourth picture. Two of the SuperPETs > > contain those "Super OS/9 M.M.U." boards produced by the Toronto PET > > Users Group (TPUG) [1] back in 1985 and if memory serves, they allow > > for bitmapped graphics on the SuperPET. > > That's cool! This is the first I've heard of bitmapped graphics on > the PET. The first bit-mapped board I saw for the PET was by, IIRC, MTU. It was advertised in Byte, etc., in the day. Never saw one up close, just screenshots of plotted mathematical equations. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Nov-2007 at 06:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -38.9 F (-39.4 C) Windchill -57.3 F (-49.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.8 kts Grid 87 Barometer 693.4 mb (10127 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 00:41:55 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:41:55 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711100141.55388.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 08 November 2007 16:33, Tony Duell wrote: > > Reminds me of a question that got thrown at me during a recent job > > interview. > > The guy threw three colors at me and asked me what value resistor that=20 > > represented, which was fairly trivial to answer. Then he asked me > > what tolerance it was. I responded that he didn't mention a tolerance > > band, at which point he told me that there wasn't one. > > > > "20%, though I haven't run into one of those in quite a while..." > > Did he pack a set of colours that could have been a prefered value in the > 20% series? I would have been worried if he'd said something like > 'Orange, White, Red', since AFAIK 3.9k resistors never made with a 20% > tolerance... The colors he said were "green, black red". Dunno if you'd call that a preferred value, but I've seen such. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From brain at jbrain.com Sat Nov 10 00:56:11 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:56:11 -0600 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: References: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> <20071109055932.GB24490@usap.gov> <000401c8233e$b5b34b70$6401a8c0@ASUS32> Message-ID: <4735560B.8080900@jbrain.com> Golan Klinger wrote: > For both the friendly list participants and the two doubting Thomases > who kindly took the time to email me to call me a liar (no SuperPETs > for you!), I have taken some photographs. You can find them at the > following URL: > > > > I'll direct your attention to the fourth picture. Two of the SuperPETs > contain those "Super OS/9 M.M.U." boards produced by the Toronto PET > Users Group (TPUG) [1] back in 1985 and if memory serves, they allow > for bitmapped graphics on the SuperPET. They are somewhat rare and I'm > not even sure if we (TPUG) have one in our inventory. I'm going to > make some inquiries as well as have a closer look at the board and > I'll post about it later. I may end up attempting to clone the board > and if I'm able to, I'll make them available to TPUG members at cost > (everyone is welcome to join, hint hint.) > I'm not one of the Doubting Thomases per se, but that board sounds more like a OS/9 memory management unit. It looks like it plugs into the 6809 socket and allows some funkiness with the memory map. The board looks trivial to clone. I'd run one out on Eagle if a board makes it my way to run the DMM over. Jim From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 00:59:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:59:57 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711090734.CAA15511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200711090734.CAA15511@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200711100159.58145.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 09 November 2007 02:28, der Mouse wrote: > >> Forget electrcity ... Have a torch heated valve. :) > > > > I'd love to see you keep that flame burning while having a > > sufficienltly low gas pressure around the cathode to have a long > > enough mean free path for the electrons, Not to mention problems > > caused by the ions geenrated by said flame. > > Doable. > > The glass envelope for the vacuum takes the form of two concentric > cylinders joined at their ends, topologically a torus. The cathode is > another concentric cylinder, this time of metal or whatever, just > barely larger than the inner glass cylinder, with the grids and > anode/plate forming successively larger cylinders. The heater flame > passes through the centre of the cylinder (which is outside the glass > vacuum envelope), heating the cathode by infrared radiation, much as a > conventional heater does. (The glass forming the inner cylinder needs > to be infrared-transparent and probably high-melting-point.) This is pretty much the way I pictured it, too... Working out the details would be a real killer, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 01:02:48 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:02:48 -0500 Subject: Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted. In-Reply-To: <473427FD.7030603@bluewin.ch> References: <473427FD.7030603@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200711100202.48236.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 09 November 2007 04:27, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > Anyone has the above ? > > It is a 14 pin TTL IC, according to google some sort of CRC generator. > It is part of the mididisk controller of the ETH Lilith, which I am > reverse engineering. I have it listed on my parts pages (along with a bunch of nearby numbers) but no data on any of them. If some is found I'd be happy to add it to the pile... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 01:14:54 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:14:54 -0500 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4732D448.28914.A66BFD0@cclist.sydex.com> <200711091023.35436.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <4734AA23.7040004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711100214.54974.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 09 November 2007 13:42, woodelf wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > obclassiccmp: I'm finishing shooting a short clip about my PDP11. This > > *will* be available on YouTube. Yes, the quality is quite good. Yes, I > > spent a bit of time and money on lighting and sound. > > > > Gordon > > The gota with YouTube is that it is windows/IE only to my knowlage.That > leaves out a lot of people here. > Ben. Works fine with linux/firefox here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gklinger at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 01:17:54 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:17:54 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <4735560B.8080900@jbrain.com> References: <01C8225E.9DAA19E0@MSE_D03> <20071109055932.GB24490@usap.gov> <000401c8233e$b5b34b70$6401a8c0@ASUS32> <4735560B.8080900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Jim Brain wrote: > I'm not one of the Doubting Thomases per se, but that board sounds more > like a OS/9 memory management unit. It looks like it plugs into the > 6809 socket and allows some funkiness with the memory map. I think you're right, Jim. I spoke to the person I got these from and he assures me that they facilitated bitmap graphics and suggested I try a few pieces of software he included (I got 40 odd disks from him.) Perhaps the graphics are being generated by programs running under OS/9. I just don't know (yet.) This weekend's tests will straighten things out. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 01:20:36 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:20:36 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <20071109215418.1A83856750@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20071109215418.1A83856750@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200711100220.37030.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 09 November 2007 16:54, Bryan Pope wrote: > DRAM!? In a PET?! That is crazy talk! ;) There was never even DRAM in > the C64... Although I believe the SuperCPU used DRAM memory, but that > was third-party. What are you talking about here? I've never seen one that didn't use it, almost all of them being 4164s or variants, except for some of the very late boards that went to a somewhat denser chip... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Nov 9 08:14:45 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:14:45 +0100 Subject: HP Key Notes Available In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20071109074332.0153d7c0@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20071109074332.0153d7c0@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <47346B55.1020707@iais.fraunhofer.de> B. Degnan schrieb: > The following items are outside of my sphere of interest, but I bet > some on this list would be interested, so here goes... > I have available for trade a complete set of the first few years of > the HP Key Notes magazine: > HP Key Notes 1977 Vol 1; numbers 1,2 (featuring the HP-01), and 3 > HP Key Notes 1978 Vol 2; numbers 1,2,3,4 > HP Key Notes 1979 Vol 3; numbers 1,2,3 > > Plus > HP Key Notes 1981 Vol 5; numbers 1, 3 > and > "The Hewlett-Packard Personal Calculator Digest" magazine Volume Three > 1977. Cover HP-19C > and > HP 67/97 User's Library Catalog of contributed programs (not the > programs themselves) > with program submittal worksheets > > If interested, contact me via billdeg at aol dot com or my web site, > vintagecomputer.net. I would consider almost any reasonable trade > > > Hi, not to spoil your business, but the Key Notes are already available on the net under http://www.hp41.org/LibView.cfm?Command=List&CategoryID=8 The HP67 UL is likely at www.hpmuseum.org as well, at least on the museum's DVD. Regards -- Holger From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 13:25:29 2007 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:25:29 -0600 Subject: Silicon Graphics Indigo2 hard drive spinup time issues Message-ID: hello all, i have an SGI indigo2 which ive installed a 2GB IBM hard drive in. however, from a cold boot, i receive a drive/cable error, and it asks me to press any key to continue. when i do, i press start system and it all comes to life. im assuming it takes longer for the drive to spin up than the indigo2 takes to wait for the drive. is there a way to adjust this? thanks From cc at corti-net.de Sat Nov 10 03:54:06 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:54:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: <47342CE4.28505.FA8DC46@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47342CE4.28505.FA8DC46@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Claude sent me a few "Plastibands" which are sold by office supply > retailers as a replacement for rubber bands; the big advantage is > that they don't degrade with exposure to light and atmospheric ozone. > They come in two sizes--2 inch and 4 inch. The 2 inch variety works > pretty well in DC-2000 size carts and the 4 inch can be made to work Do you know if the 2 inch bands work in DC-100 cartridges? > in DC-300/600/6150/6250 etc. carts. I wish the things were a bit > wider, or that they came in a 6-inch size, but they do the job. The The idea with "Plastibands" is worth a try. I only have to find a local source for them. > Back to the DC300s--you may find that the belt has done something > else that's not quite so simple to solve. With time, the oxide > formulation in at least some brands (Scotch is one that I've > discovered) has bonded to the drive belt surface better than the > mylar tape substrate. Thus, you'll find where the belt has contacted > the medium during storage, you have some nice clear spots in the > tape. I don't believe that process is reversible. Yes, all the old belts (only the small width white ones, not the black belts) stick to the tape. But I know this and thus don't even try to move the tape in the cartridge. Instead, I open it and apply my "patented light bulb heating process" (see an older posting from me on DC-100 cartridges). Christian From cc at corti-net.de Sat Nov 10 04:02:14 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:02:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tek 405x tape drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > I thought, from a brief look at a friend's 4052 service manual (how I > wish I had a 405x myself...), that it was 2 tracks, a transition on one > is a '0' and a transition on the other is a '1' (And a transition on both > together is a marker?). _Very_ like the BMS digital cassetes I use. Yes, that's how it is described in the 4051 service manual. BTW the IBM 5100/5110 tape drive has a two tracks head, too. The difference is that one head is used for header records and the other for data records. They are used alternatively. Christian From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Nov 10 04:04:44 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 05:04:44 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET Message-ID: <01C82357.44DCB120@mandr71> -----------Original Message(s): Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:38:08 +1300 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Commodore PET To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20071110063808.GA31194 at usap.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 09:23:25PM -0700, Richard wrote: > > That's cool! This is the first I've heard of bitmapped graphics on > the PET. The first bit-mapped board I saw for the PET was by, IIRC, MTU. It was advertised in Byte, etc., in the day. Never saw one up close, just screenshots of plotted mathematical equations. -ethan ------------Reply: Ah, their logo, the ubiquitous 'hat'... Just happen to have one; the first version was actually designed for the KIM & SYM (SRAM BTW) and when the PET came out they made an adapter board for it; the second version was specifically for the PET and had DRAM, and they could both also be used as ordinary expansion memory. They also made music boards & software for KIM/SYM/PET, expansion chassis, and other neat stuff for 6502-powered machines. Their catalogue'll make you drool... m From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Nov 10 05:40:15 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:40:15 +0100 Subject: Fairchild 9401 In-Reply-To: <4734E46F.6060705@bitsavers.org> References: <4734E46F.6060705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4735989F.1000605@bluewin.ch> Al Kossow wrote: > It's in the 1976 macrologic book > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/fairchild/_dataBooks/1976_Fairchild_Macrologic.pdf > > Indeed it is. Very interesting logic family btw. Thanks to all for providing me with datasheets, pinouts etc. It certainly makes more sense now, I first mistook it for a 7401 , and it made no sense at all ( my examplar has a worn print ) The 9401 is wired to a CRC-16 mode and sits between disk bitstream output and data deserializer. Jos From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 10 05:44:44 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:44:44 +0000 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <47351704.207@oldskool.org> References: <850623.67446.qm@web23412.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <47351704.207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <473599AC.10702@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/11/2007 02:27, Jim Leonard wrote: >> What was the first computer to have any type of video? I'm guessing >> that the Philips CDi, Panasonic/Goldstar 3DO and Amiga CD32 were some >> of the first consoles to feature CD-based video. > 25fps or faster is a tall order -- CDI might be the first console-thingy > to have it on a standardized basis, but a year earlier in 1991, I was > watching quarter-screen streaming 30fps video in the form of > http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/sherlock-holmes-consulting-detective The earliest I can think of is Acorn's Replay software, which could do quarter-screen 25fps in 1988 or 1989 on an Acorn Archimedes machine. A little before that, the same machines were playing short animated ray-traced scenes at 25fps, sometimes full-frame -- but that's not quite the same thing as video. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 10 05:50:42 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:50:42 +0000 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <20071110031430.GA21386@usap.gov> References: <47351704.207@oldskool.org> <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20071110031430.GA21386@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47359B12.80201@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/11/2007 03:14, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Some videodisc players are designed for interactive use and > have a parallel or serial input port, but the computer only sends > start/stop/seek commands to the player. The player still squirts > out NTSC (or PAL?) video to a monitor, not digitized frames to > the controlling computer. Those models can typically be controlled > via front-panel buttons even when a computer is not attached. The Philips ones used in Acorn's Domesday system (1986) are rather like that. They have an extra SCSI interface, so the computer can control the player through that, and the player's video is fed to a genlock card in the computer so the two video stream can be mixed under computer control, but the laser video isn't digitised. However, some of the audio tracks actually hold data that the computer *can* read (captions, indexing, programs, etc). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Nov 10 05:50:05 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 06:50:05 -0500 Subject: DEC VDP01 (was Re: Video clips) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711092209m8735747q3957eb2da6e134a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <004401c82346$e3873130$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <51ea77730711092209m8735747q3957eb2da6e134a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711100650.05326.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 10 November 2007 01:09, Jason T wrote: > On 11/9/07, Jay West wrote: > > >> Laserdisc > > > > Is this thread somewhat vaguely related to classic computing? > > OK I'll bring it back around.....during VCF Midwest I saw a > DEC-branded Laserdisc unit at Pat's computer wonderland. Anyone know > what it was used for? Was it just some sort of computer-based > training software than run under VMS, or something more interesting? > > Never seen one before or since. It's a part of DEC's IVIS product (Interactive video instruction system, maybe), and there's a DEC Pro/380 and a small external A/V box that hooks up to the Pro, the VDP01 video disc player, and A/V output devices. Beyond that, I don't know too much, and most of that I learned from physical inspection of what I got, or google. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 10 05:53:52 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:53:52 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <20071110041838.GA24267@usap.gov> References: <01C82323.02C74360@MSE_D03> <20071110041838.GA24267@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47359BD0.6090603@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/11/2007 04:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think *all* PETs used 2114s for the video memory at $8000. Although the ones that used 6550s for main RAM used them for the video too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 06:43:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:43:24 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2007, at 8:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> sounds wrong). But the only time you'll see the word 'condenser' >>> used is >>> in old books and in one old radio magazine that insistes on using >>> the old >>> terms (including 'cylces per second' for 'hertz'). >> >> It is still in common usage to refer to the capacitor used in >> automotive >> distributors > > Yes, but how common are LT contact breakers these days? Heck, most > modenr > cars over here have a coil-per-plug (or at least a coil for every pair > of > plugs, with a 'weated spark' occuring at a plug in a cylinder at the > top > of the exhaust stroke), so no distributor at all. Indeed, my last car had TWO coils per plug and no distributor. Buying a set of spark plug wires for that thing was...painful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Nov 10 06:52:48 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 04:52:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <584677.52025.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have taken some photographs. You can > find them at the > following URL: > > Wow! Those are really, really beautiful. Nice find! -Ian From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 07:02:41 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:02:41 +1100 Subject: Commodore PET References: <584677.52025.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <025a01c82399$fd307940$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "Mr Ian Primus" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Commodore PET > I have taken some photographs. You can >> find them at the >> following URL: >> >> > > Wow! Those are really, really beautiful. Nice find! > I'm seriously jealous Lance From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Nov 10 07:04:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:04:12 +0000 Subject: Commodore PET In-Reply-To: <01C82357.44DCB120@mandr71> References: <01C82357.44DCB120@mandr71> Message-ID: <20071110130412.GA16140@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 05:04:44AM -0500, M H Stein wrote: > Ah, their logo, the ubiquitous 'hat'... That's the one. I could probably find out which equation they were plotting, if the satellites were up. > Just happen to have one; the first version was actually designed for the > KIM & SYM (SRAM BTW) and when the PET came out they made an > adapter board for it; the second version was specifically for the PET and > had DRAM, and they could both also be used as ordinary expansion > memory. I knew about the KIM and SYM version, but I didn't know that one could be fitted into the PET. I think I only knew about the later one in terms of PET use. > They also made music boards & software for KIM/SYM/PET, > expansion chassis, and other neat stuff for 6502-powered machines. > Their catalogue'll make you drool... Since you bring them up, it reminds me that I may have seen a catalog, long ago, and it was full of neat things that I couldn't afford as a teenager. The other catalog that made me drool was the company that advertised modular I/O products - you could plug them into a PET, or a KIM, or an AIM-65, etc. They had digital I/O, analog I/O, and maybe even an S-100 adapter (not that I would have had the first clue what to do with one of those at 14). I just remember seeing all the devices you could plug in, and realizing that I could easily spend half as much on I/O as I did on the computer in the first place. In the end, I did a lot with the User Port and never did buy many expansion devices. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Nov-2007 at 13:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.4 F (-40.2 C) Windchill -55.0 F (-48.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.3 kts Grid 71 Barometer 692.2 mb (10171 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Nov 10 07:05:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:05:56 +0000 Subject: PET SRAMs In-Reply-To: <47359BD0.6090603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01C82323.02C74360@MSE_D03> <20071110041838.GA24267@usap.gov> <47359BD0.6090603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20071110130556.GB16140@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 11:53:52AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 10/11/2007 04:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >I think *all* PETs used 2114s for the video memory at $8000. > > Although the ones that used 6550s for main RAM used them for the video too. Ah, yes. It did. Sorry about the over-generalization. All of the *later* PETs used 2114s, but not the earliest model. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Nov-2007 at 13:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.4 F (-40.2 C) Windchill -55.0 F (-48.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.3 kts Grid 71 Barometer 692.2 mb (10171 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 10 07:56:44 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:56:44 +0000 Subject: PET SRAMs In-Reply-To: <20071110130556.GB16140@usap.gov> References: <01C82323.02C74360@MSE_D03> <20071110041838.GA24267@usap.gov> <47359BD0.6090603@dunnington.plus.com> <20071110130556.GB16140@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4735B89C.2010203@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/11/2007 13:05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 11:53:52AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 10/11/2007 04:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> I think *all* PETs used 2114s for the video memory at $8000. >> Although the ones that used 6550s for main RAM used them for the video too. > > Ah, yes. It did. Sorry about the over-generalization. I expected you knew that; I was just being pedantic :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 11:43:59 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:43:59 -0500 Subject: CRC question Message-ID: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> That recent discussion on the CRC chip got me to thinking about something that I hadn't thought of for some years now... My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM, that does a sort of sanity check on itself. Some sort of a CRC algorithm (I'd have to dig out the code for exact details, and have NO idea of where I'd find it at this point). This thing had six sockets altogether, only 24-pin, so I couldn't put any bigger than a 2732 in them, and one of the nifty features in the code in that one that came with it was that it'd check the _second_ socket the same way. That way, if you had an appropriately-coded chip in there it'd just hand off to it. Seems handy to me as a way to just get the darn thing to boot a disk without you having to tell it to do so. Unfortunately, I have *no* idea how one would make an eprom have the appropriate CRC results. I suspect that one of the important details would be the exact polynomial used to generate the CRC in the first place, and I don't have that handy at the moment, have to figure out just where the heck that is... But any suggestions as to where I might research this further would be appreciated. For some reason, in spite of me having seen lots and lots of full-page ads in Micro-Cornucopia and elsewhere during that time, I can find almost nothing on the machine on the 'net these days. Which is a shame, as it's a nice board, in a lot of ways... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Nov 10 11:46:25 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:46:25 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in some Xyplex terminal servers? Message-ID: I have several Xyplex terminal servers - One MaxServer 4500 with 5x16 port cards and one enet module One MaxServer 5000 with 12x8 port cards, 2x LAN interface (ethernet) and 1x NetManagement module (including the floppies) one Xyplex 1500 1U 16-port terminal server 2x Network 9000 PS/130 power supply modules Any interest? Renton, WA area. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 10 12:04:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:04:34 +0000 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <47359B12.80201@dunnington.plus.com> References: <47351704.207@oldskool.org> <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20071110031430.GA21386@usap.gov> <47359B12.80201@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4735F2B2.9010601@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > The Philips ones used in Acorn's Domesday system (1986) are rather like > that. They have an extra SCSI interface, so the computer can control > the player through that, and the player's video is fed to a genlock card > in the computer so the two video stream can be mixed under computer > control, but the laser video isn't digitised. However, some of the > audio tracks actually hold data that the computer *can* read (captions, > indexing, programs, etc). *hopefully* I'll have mine at a US VCF next year, assuming they'll let it through US customs (along with all my other vintage stuff). Very impressive systems given the timeframe, although the 'virtual reality' UI on the computer end rather shows its age these days... I think the Domesday setup was pretty unique in having a SCSI interface - as the previous poster said, typically such 'interactive' players used RS232 for control (and I don't believe they were capable of moving data from the disk across the RS-232 link). cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Nov 10 12:21:35 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:21:35 -0600 Subject: modern serial terminal In-Reply-To: <297283.1435.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <297283.1435.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4735F6AF.6080207@oldskool.org> Andrew Burton wrote: > Just incase anyone wondered (or perhaps not!), the SNES was actually an 8-bit machine with a "crazy chip" (think I got that quote right, been a long time since I read "Game Over" by David Scheff). I'd love to know how mode 7 worked (for 3D-ish racing games like Mario Kart and F-Zero), as it couldn't do 3D polygon graphics until the SFX (Super Effects) chip was created (presumably just some sort of maths co-processor?) Wikipedia has an extensive set of documentation on what the SNES was, it's capabilities, and what the SuperFX chip was. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Nov 10 12:19:19 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:19:19 -0800 Subject: Old Sun diags questions (4/300 and 3/200) Message-ID: Couple of questions on old Sun machines (well, parts). On a Sun 4300 CPU board, I'm getting the "EEPROM Write-Write-Read-Read test error PA=0xF2000000 VA=0X00FF8000 Exp=0x0000005a Obs=0x00000000 (looping)" error. Looking on the Web and Usenet seems to show that this has happened a couple of times, with some reference to possibly being the NVRAM (although the most comprehensive posing set was in German :(). This seems a bit odd, though - on my other Suns it calls the NVRAM the NVRAM, so I'm wondering if this is something else. J1900 1-2 is connected (4MB SIMM option), so it shouldn't be that (or is there something else needed to be done- not sure if this is a 4/330, or if there is any board-level reason that it couldn't use 4MB SIMMS). Another question- so far I have had two Sun-3 era machines (a Carrera CPU in a CADDstation and a Sun 3/200 CPU) develop "all lights on" catatonia. Is this a common problem with Sun-3s? I'm wondering if I should take the time to trace out the 3/200 board (preferably with hints on where to look), give it away, or junk it (I have a working 3/110 system, so I won't be destitute of Sun-3s). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Nov 10 12:22:59 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:22:59 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <200711101800.lAAI0Nd4051967@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711101800.lAAI0Nd4051967@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5a85f5010bdc37a816d1ccf9a01a094e@valleyimplants.com> On Nov 10, 2007, at 10:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > hello all, > i have an SGI indigo2 which ive installed a 2GB IBM hard drive in. > however, > from a cold boot, i receive a drive/cable error, and it asks me to > press any > key to continue. when i do, i press start system and it all comes to > life. > im assuming it takes longer for the drive to spin up than the indigo2 > takes > to wait for the drive. is there a way to adjust this? thanks Which drive? IBM has a number of 2GB drives, and I know definitely that one of them (0664) doesn't work in a R3k Indigo at all. OTOH, SGI OEMed some IBM drives, so it isn't all of them (the 0664 was originally from a RS/6000 AFAIK). The Hitachi site has setup sheets still for many old IBM drives - see if there's a "spinup on power-on" jumper. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 12:25:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:25:33 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: References: , <47342CE4.28505.FA8DC46@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4735871D.25646.1FDBF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 10:54, Christian Corti wrote: > Do you know if the 2 inch bands work in DC-100 cartridges? I can't say for the DC-100's, but they do work on the DC-1000s; there's a tremendous amount of stretch in these, so the 2" will even work in a DC2000. The Plastibands are made in Japan, so finding them should be possible overseas. They're marketed by Baumgarten's in the USA: http://www.b3.net/customer/search.php?substring=plastibands You might try a store dealing in art supplies. I found that they're popular with that crowd in that, unlike bands made of latex, they will not stain paper and latex bands do when they decompose. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 10 12:26:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:26:20 +0000 Subject: HP2116 inventory Message-ID: <4735F7CC.3050808@yahoo.co.uk> We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store' and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the panels earlier. I did a quick inventory: 2116B 2116C 2160A (PSU) 2161A (PSU) 2748A (tape reader) HP1016C (two - 512 track drum) One of our guys managed to flip the front door catches (the keys for the machines are long-gone), so I was able to take a board listing too: 2116B: slot board 1 pwr fail / AR 10 sense amplifier 11 sense amplifier 12 sense amplifier 13 sense amplifier 14 driver switch 15 driver switch 16 inhibit driver 18 inhibit driver 20 DML 22 sense amplifier 101 A101 102 A102-105 103 A102-105 104 A102-105 106 A106 107 A107 108 A108 110 EAU logic 111 EAU timing 116 DMA word count 117 DMA word count 118 DMA address enc. 119 DMA control 120 DMA packer 201 A201 202 central interr. 211 I/O multiplexor 214 tape reader 216 I/O multiplexor 218 buss loader 2116C: slot board 101 A101 102 A102-105 103 A102-105 104 A102-105 105 A102-105 106 A106 107 A107 201 A201 205 A108 206 MDB / A13 207 power fail 208 power fail 209 power fail 210 power fail 211 power fail 212 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 213 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 214 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 215 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 216 MMD / A2 217 sense amplifier 218 MMD / A2 219 driver switch / A8,9,14,15 220 MDB / A13 things found kicking around in the 2116C case: Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ferroxcube corporation) Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ampex) Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7 (international scientific) 'short' board, HP assy. 02116-8015 'short' board, HP assy. 02160-60031 power fail board (identical to the ones in card slots) unknown full-size board, HP 1150-1198. Most of the boards sitting in the card slots are just loose, i.e. not plugged into the backplane, so there's no guarantee they're in the right place (the bottom row of the 2116C machine looks particularly disorganised). Anyone familiar with the systems know if this is anything like two machines' worth though? Or is it some sort of dual-cabinet system, and one crate was likely just I/O with the other for CPU? Nice to finally see inside them anyway, as for all we knew they could have been completely stripped out inside... I *assume* the pair of drums go with them, but there's no guarantee there (I'm just not sure what they *do* belong with if it isn't these machines :-) cheers Jules From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 12:35:26 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:35:26 -0600 Subject: Silicon Graphics Indigo2 hard drive spinup time issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730711101035i47114718q52858a0022f2285f@mail.gmail.com> On 11/9/07, joe lobocki wrote: > hello all, > i have an SGI indigo2 which ive installed a 2GB IBM hard drive in. however, > from a cold boot, i receive a drive/cable error, and it asks me to press any > key to continue. when i do, i press start system and it all comes to life. > im assuming it takes longer for the drive to spin up than the indigo2 takes > to wait for the drive. is there a way to adjust this? thanks Hi Joe - if no one here can answer your question, and you have Usenet access, it looks like comp.sys.sgi.hardware is still somewhat active. I've gotten help there (albeit years ago.) Then again its readership may be mostly people from this list :) -- jht From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 10 12:42:13 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:42:13 -0700 Subject: Silicon Graphics Indigo2 hard drive spinup time issues In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:35:26 -0600. <51ea77730711101035i47114718q52858a0022f2285f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You can also try -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 12:58:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:58:40 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47358EE0.32722.3E2F74@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 12:43, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM, that does a sort > of sanity check on itself. Some sort of a CRC algorithm (I'd have to dig out > the code for exact details, and have NO idea of where I'd find it at this > point). Take a snapshot of the code and post it. I'll be happy to disassemble it and tell you what's going on--particuarly if it's only a 2732. It's got to be easier than disassembling a couple of 27256s... Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 14:24:39 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:24:39 -0500 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <47358EE0.32722.3E2F74@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> <47358EE0.32722.3E2F74@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711101524.39967.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 November 2007 13:58, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Nov 2007 at 12:43, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM, that does a > > sort of sanity check on itself. Some sort of a CRC algorithm (I'd have > > to dig out the code for exact details, and have NO idea of where I'd > > find it at this point). > > Take a snapshot of the code and post it. I'll be happy to > disassemble it and tell you what's going on--particuarly if it's only > a 2732. It's got to be easier than disassembling a couple of > 27256s... I will, if I can find it somewhere... At this point the board is in a box, the PS is in storage, and I'd need to rig something up with a terminal and PS to get at it, unless I can find a listing somewhere. I have been poking around since I posted that and there's a bit more on the 'net now than last time I looked, including some docs on bitsavers, which I've downoaded, but that's more assembly instructions and hardware info than code listings. That was linked from a wikipedia page. :-) Best I can remember, the code did a bunch of 16-bit math that seemed to implement some kind of a polynomial (just a bit beyond me when I read it) and ran this over the contents of the EPROM, looking for a zero result. I guessed at that time that you'd have to put *something* into the EPROM to give that result, but how to do so and get the right result wasn't something my assembler skills were quite up to at the time. It'd vary depending on the contents of the EPROM I suppose. I ran across a box recently, too, that I'd been looking for for quite some time. In it were several disks that a guy in Australia (!) had sent me, in Kaypro single-sided format -- best I could deal with at that time since what I had was only my Osborne Exec -- that listed a bunch of BIOS code and alternate EPROM code, setting for example different frequencies for the onboard video, something I'd probalby find useful if I wanted to use that onboard stuff because the composite-input monitors I had at the time didn't seem to be too happy with the default rate (of what, 18 KHz? Something like that?)... At this point I don't have room to set up another monitor anyhow, and would probably just use a serial cable and a terminal program on one of these linux boxes instead, assuming I can find someplace to put the BBII in the first place. Just lookingat the picture in that file I retrieved makes me want to play with that thing a bit. :-) I think, though, that instead of the 2 5.25" drives I was originally intending to use with it (and which are buried somewhere in storage at this point, I have no idea where), I'd like to maybe have a go at interfacing a 3.5" drive to it. And maybe one of the "smaller" (2G?) SCSI drives I have around here. Think that's possible? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 10 15:04:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:04:26 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com><47351D90.1050403@oldskool.org><004401c82346$e3873130$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <004101c82358$bd7b2e80$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Someone wrote.... > Actually laserdiscs certainly are That's a stretch... I'm not buying it :) Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 10 15:33:38 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:33:38 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > ---snip--- > > Unfortunately, I have *no* idea how one would make an eprom have the > appropriate CRC results. I suspect that one of the important details would > be the exact polynomial used to generate the CRC in the first place, and I > don't have that handy at the moment, have to figure out just where the heck > that is... > > But any suggestions as to where I might research this further would be > appreciated. > Hi It is most likely a simple checksum and not a crc. Still, making a crc come out to zero is not hard. It is about the same as a checksum resulting in zero. If it was doing a 16 bit crc, it would need 2 bytes to be the check bits. Still, most ROM checks that I've seen are simple checksums. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 10 15:39:33 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:39:33 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47362515.7080800@msm.umr.edu> dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > It is most likely a simple checksum and not a crc. Still, making a crc > come out to zero is not hard. It is about the same as a checksum resulting in zero. > If it was doing a 16 bit crc, it would need 2 bytes to be the check bits. > Still, most ROM checks that I've seen are simple checksums. > Dwight > Checksums have a problem when used to check prom space in that a common error in function can just misorder the bytes or location of the eproms in memory space, and a checksum won't catch that. CRC's can be constructed which will only work well if the bytes are in the correct order thru the entire space. Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 10 15:41:56 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:41:56 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <200711101524.39967.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> <47358EE0.32722.3E2F74@cclist.sydex.com> <200711101524.39967.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > ---snip--- > > Best I can remember, the code did a bunch of 16-bit math that seemed to > implement some kind of a polynomial (just a bit beyond me when I read it) and > ran this over the contents of the EPROM, looking for a zero result. I ---snip--- Hi If it is a crc the math will just be xors with the polynomial and a shift. Doing a crc is not that complicated. Finding the correct polynomials is a little more complicated. Most computer application use the same polynomial for 16 bit but there are a few variations. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 10 15:45:31 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:45:31 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <47362515.7080800@msm.umr.edu> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> <47362515.7080800@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu > > dwight elvey wrote: >> >> >> Hi >> It is most likely a simple checksum and not a crc. Still, making a crc >> come out to zero is not hard. It is about the same as a checksum resulting in zero. >> If it was doing a 16 bit crc, it would need 2 bytes to be the check bits. >> Still, most ROM checks that I've seen are simple checksums. >> Dwight >> > Checksums have a problem when used to check prom space in that a common > error in function can just > misorder the bytes or location of the eproms in memory space, and a > checksum won't catch that. > > CRC's can be constructed which will only work well if the bytes are in > the correct order thru the entire > space. > Hi This is true that a crc is better. It is just that most of the code that I've seen is a simple checksum and not a crc. If it were my code, I'd most likely us a crc. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 10 15:51:07 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:51:07 -0800 Subject: Furguson Big Board II (was CRC question) Message-ID: <473627CB.3090208@bitsavers.org> > My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigboard The EPROM source was available with the board, there should be no need to disassemble it. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 15:51:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:51:02 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <200711101524.39967.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net>, <47358EE0.32722.3E2F74@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711101524.39967.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4735B746.32055.DBFEDF@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 15:24, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Just lookingat the picture in that file I retrieved makes me want to play with > that thing a bit. :-) I think, though, that instead of the 2 5.25" > drives I was originally intending to use with it (and which are buried > somewhere in storage at this point, I have no idea where), I'd like to > maybe have a go at interfacing a 3.5" drive to it. And maybe one of > the "smaller" (2G?) SCSI drives I have around here. Think that's possible? Certainly the SCSI drive is possible, given the interface on the BBII (Doesn't have a SASI-ready interface or two already?) Not wide-SCSI, but certainly 8-bit SCSI. Your biggest problem is how to deal with 2GB efficiently with CP/M-80. 3.5" floppy is easy, but a 3.5" PATA drive is more problematical, given the 16-bit interface for data. Of course, one could throw away half the data or even treat the drive as two units to accommodate 8- bit transfers. >Best I can remember, the code did a bunch of 16-bit math that >seemed to implement some kind of a polynomial (just a bit beyond me >when I read it) and ran this over the contents of the EPROM, >looking for a zero result. Could even be XORing the contents with a LFSR. Hard to say without seeing it. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 10 15:59:49 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:59:49 -0800 Subject: Furguson Big Board II (was CRC question) In-Reply-To: <473627CB.3090208@bitsavers.org> References: <473627CB.3090208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <473629D5.2030208@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > > My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigboard > > The EPROM source was available with the board, there should be > no need to disassemble it. > > I've just put SSSD floppy images of three disks which should have the ROM monitor source on them up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Furguson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 10 15:46:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:46:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711100141.55388.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Nov 10, 7 01:41:55 am Message-ID: > The colors he said were "green, black red". Dunno if you'd call that a=20 > preferred value, but I've seen such. OK, so 5k obviously... Not a common value in any series these days I think my question would then have been : Are you sure it was a resistor? I've seen picofuses with those colours (5000mA = 5A), although IIRC, they normally have a 4th band giving the time-delay charactistics. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 16:14:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:14:15 -0800 Subject: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) In-Reply-To: <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 15:04, Jay West wrote: > Someone wrote.... > > Actually laserdiscs certainly are > That's a stretch... I'm not buying it :) Jay, would you mind if I took the subject back OT? Laserdiscs hold a special place in my brain. I recall seeing a demo of the Pioneer Laserdisc player around 1980 or so in the local Macy's (that was when Macy's was the place to go to see the latest in consumer electronics). I went home with a bunch of brochures and sat calculating the capacity of a Laserdisc in bytes--my numbers were very exciting. I can remember saying to my wife that evening "Do you realize how this invention will transform information storage?". I wasn't the only one thinking this way, apparently. Here's a great story about rescuing the Beeb's 1986 Domesday Book project: http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue36/tna/ Do any of the cclist-ers in the UK still have any LV-ROMs and hardware? I'd be willing to wager that Tony does. :) For what it's worth, I was amazed that RCA had the courage to market their Videodisc kludge a year later in 1981. The technology seems to have died a mercifully early death. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 16:32:29 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:32:29 -0500 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200711101732.29988.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 November 2007 16:33, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > ---snip--- > > > Unfortunately, I have *no* idea how one would make an eprom have the > > appropriate CRC results. I suspect that one of the important details > > would be the exact polynomial used to generate the CRC in the first > > place, and I don't have that handy at the moment, have to figure out just > > where the heck that is... > > > > But any suggestions as to where I might research this further would be > > appreciated. > > Hi > It is most likely a simple checksum and not a crc. Nope, it was definitely more complicated than that. I know it's been quite some time since I saw that code, but they were doing all sorts of shifting and adding and whatnot, and I distinctly recall "polynomial" (?) being mentioned in there somewhere. > Still, making a crc come out to zero is not hard. It is about the same as a > checksum resulting in zero. If it was doing a 16 bit crc, it would need 2 > bytes to be the check bits. Right. So you'd need some way to give the assembler instructions to look at its own output? Or look at it, figure out the right value somehow (and how I'm not at all clear about), and stuff that value in there at the end of your code, then? This is where I got confused, I think. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 16:36:42 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:36:42 -0500 Subject: Furguson Big Board II (was CRC question) In-Reply-To: <473627CB.3090208@bitsavers.org> References: <473627CB.3090208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200711101736.42788.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 November 2007 16:51, Al Kossow wrote: > > My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigboard That was the first thing I looked at, which pointed to the file I found on bitsavers. :-) > The EPROM source was available with the board, there should be > no need to disassemble it. Right. I have, somewhere, a loose-leaf binder that has what paper I have on that board, including my paper schematics -- I'm *real* happy to have found that file so I have a backup copy of that info in electronic form, too. But I don't recall whether the source code was included in that or not. "Available with the board" may not mean that I got it -- there was BIOS source available with it too, and I never got that. It was supposed to come on the same (eight inch!) floppy I'd get my purchased copy of CP/M on, only I didn't have the funds to buy all that at once, and so attempted to spread out my purchases a bit. And right in there someplace was when Cal-Tex ceased its operations... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 16:42:18 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:42:18 -0500 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <4735B746.32055.DBFEDF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711101524.39967.rtellason@verizon.net> <4735B746.32055.DBFEDF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711101742.18532.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 November 2007 16:51, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Nov 2007 at 15:24, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Just lookingat the picture in that file I retrieved makes me want to play > > with that thing a bit. :-) I think, though, that instead of the 2 > > 5.25" drives I was originally intending to use with it (and which are > > buried somewhere in storage at this point, I have no idea where), I'd > > like to maybe have a go at interfacing a 3.5" drive to it. And maybe one > > of the "smaller" (2G?) SCSI drives I have around here. Think that's > > possible? > > Certainly the SCSI drive is possible, given the interface on the BBII > (Doesn't have a SASI-ready interface or two already?) Not wide-SCSI, > but certainly 8-bit SCSI. There is indeed a "SASI port" on the board, and in fact one of the questions I had when I put it together was whether that 220/330 terminator pack (a DIP) which was connected to that port was supposed to get warm like that. :-) I saw mention somewhere today about the possibility of _two_ SASI connections, but attempting to follow that got me nowhere, there were references to stuff that wasn't there any more. > Your biggest problem is how to deal with 2GB efficiently with CP/M-80. Indeed. Assuming that I run CP/M-80, that is. This strikes me as a nice opportunity to do some hacking, and to maybe start out with that but to end up with something a little further along, given the constraints of the hardware (address space, etc.). ZCPR has some nice ideas, for example, but I'm not sure I like the way some of those things got implemented. Ah well, first thing I need to do is figure out how I'm going to use it, stuff it in a box with PS, and hook it up with a serial cable. Then go on from there. > 3.5" floppy is easy, but a 3.5" PATA drive is more problematical, > given the 16-bit interface for data. Of course, one could throw away > half the data or even treat the drive as two units to accommodate 8- > bit transfers. PATA? I do have some small number of older drives, but I think that the smallest of those is probably 80MB or so, going on up to a gig or so and a bunch in between. OTOH, those 2G SCSI drives I mention I have a whole *bunch* of here. > >Best I can remember, the code did a bunch of 16-bit math that > >seemed to implement some kind of a polynomial (just a bit beyond me > >when I read it) and ran this over the contents of the EPROM, > >looking for a zero result. > > Could even be XORing the contents with a LFSR. Hard to say without > seeing it. Hopefully I'll either find that loose-leaf binder and it'll be in there or I'll come across it out there somewhere on the 'net. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 16:51:08 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:51:08 -0800 Subject: old Laserdisk players In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730711101451o46214148ye6f8d95b581ca094@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 10, 2007 1:03 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > Was it a top loader or a tray? You know, I don't think we powered it up. Pat posted the model #, though there isn't much out there in Google-land on it. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 10 16:56:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:56:27 +0000 Subject: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4736371B.7060705@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wasn't the only one thinking this way, apparently. Here's a great > story about rescuing the Beeb's 1986 Domesday Book project: > > http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue36/tna/ > > Do any of the cclist-ers in the UK still have any LV-ROMs and > hardware? I'd be willing to wager that Tony does. :) Yes - see my other post. Hopefully my system will be on the US side of the pond in a few months, US Customs permitting... Thankfully I've got all of the important bits of the service manual for the player too - whilst the players used were extremely innovative, and well designed electronically, they were really let down by poor build quality. Dry joints aplenty... (I've fixed quite a few over the years!) Disc capacity was 324MB of digital data and 54,000 video frames, not too bad for the time. The discs themselves are pretty robust - better than early CDs - although I have seen a few where they've started to deteriorate at the edges. Thankfully a couple of separate projects have the data all archived (but I don't think anyone's tackled the other LVROM titles, unfortunately) The whole project was pretty amazing. I'm not sure if anything with that level of school participation, and pushing the technology of the day that hard, has ever been done since - at least not in the UK. Earliest reference to the project I seem to have is an announcement by Philips from November 1984 - but I don't think things really went 'live' until the middle of 1986. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 17:03:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:03:14 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <200711101742.18532.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4735B746.32055.DBFEDF@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711101742.18532.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4735C832.25182.11E170F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 17:42, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Hopefully I'll either find that loose-leaf binder and it'll be in there or > I'll come across it out there somewhere on the 'net. As Al's posted the image of the EPROM source, it's pretty obvious at a glance that a CRC is used. Look for the routine "CRCGEN". Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Sat Nov 10 17:09:29 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:09:29 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question Message-ID: All: Now that the weather in the Northeast is cold again, I?m picking up on some old projects, among which is the floppy system for my IMSAI. Here?s what I want ? a 5.25? dual-disk system running CP/M 2.2 (my IMSAI has a Z80 board in it). Here?s what I have ? plenty of 5.25? TM100 and equivalent drives, a CompuPro Disk 1 and an SD Sales Versafloppy (not II). The Versafloppy specifies SA400/450, but I think other 5.25? drives will work. Here?s what I don?t have ? a working disk image for either of the above. Dave Dunfield has a disk image for a Disk 1A but it?s from an 8? original. Also, the ComprPro controller seems to require modifying the IMSAI front panel to disable it (by removing the ground on pin 20 IIRC). I really don?t want to modify the front panel. I browsed the Versafloppy manual quickly and it doesn?t seem to require modifications to the host machine. Given this, does anyone have a Versafloppy image I can use? Alternatively, I?d gladly trade what I have for a board/disk that would work. I would even consider trading other stuff for it, including the 8? drive system I have that is the bane of my existence. Thanks again for any help. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Nov 10 17:14:47 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 23:14:47 +0000 Subject: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <4736371B.7060705@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 10/11/07 22:56, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I wasn't the only one thinking this way, apparently. Here's a great >> story about rescuing the Beeb's 1986 Domesday Book project: >> >> http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue36/tna/ >> >> Do any of the cclist-ers in the UK still have any LV-ROMs and >> hardware? I'd be willing to wager that Tony does. :) > > Yes - see my other post. Hopefully my system will be on the US side of the > pond in a few months, US Customs permitting... > *cough* I have a pair with discs, but currently I'm running on low after a weekend (yes I know it's still Saturday) of parties.... Remind me next week when I might be a bit more with it :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 17:25:27 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:25:27 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711101825.28028.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 November 2007 16:46, Tony Duell wrote: > > The colors he said were "green, black red". Dunno if you'd call that > > a=20 preferred value, but I've seen such. > > OK, so 5k obviously... Not a common value in any series these days No, not these days, but back when 20% tolerance parts were common you'd run into stuff like that from time to time. Lots of those old wax-coated paper caps were ".05 MFD" rather than the 0.047uF that you run into these days (or 47nF, for that matter). > I think my question would then have been : Are you sure it was a resistor? > I've seen picofuses with those colours (5000mA = 5A), although IIRC, they > normally have a 4th band giving the time-delay charactistics. I didn't have time for questions, at least none coming from my end -- there were four folks rapidly shooting them at me, in all sorts of different areas. Overall I think it went well, and I just wish they'd hurry up and let me know where I stand with this. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 18:00:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:00:34 -0800 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711101825.28028.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <200711101825.28028.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4735D5A2.6647.1529323@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 18:25, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > No, not these days, but back when 20% tolerance parts were common you'd run > into stuff like that from time to time. Lots of those old wax-coated paper > caps were ".05 MFD" rather than the 0.047uF that you run into these days (or > 47nF, for that matter). One should have quizzed the interviewer on the old-style carbon resistors--body, end, dot coding... Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 18:14:07 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:14:07 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <4735D5A2.6647.1529323@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711101825.28028.rtellason@verizon.net> <4735D5A2.6647.1529323@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711101914.07524.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 November 2007 19:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Nov 2007 at 18:25, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > No, not these days, but back when 20% tolerance parts were common you'd > > run into stuff like that from time to time. Lots of those old wax-coated > > paper caps were ".05 MFD" rather than the 0.047uF that you run into these > > days (or 47nF, for that matter). > > One should have quizzed the interviewer on the old-style carbon > resistors--body, end, dot coding... Heh. I do know about those, though it's been a *really* long time since I've encountered one. I don't know that this guy would've known what I was talking about, though, he was younger than I am... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Nov 10 18:26:33 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:26:33 +0000 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <004401c82346$e3873130$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <47351D90.1050403@oldskool.org> <004401c82346$e3873130$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <1194740793.6670.9.camel@elric.inet> On Fri, 2007-11-09 at 21:07 -0600, Jay West wrote: > >> Ok, I'll trump your VCD with... > >> > >> Laserdisc > > Is this thread somewhat vaguely related to classic computing? Do you know what? I think I've finally reached my "It's off-topic" saturation point. Not the amount of off-topic content, but the amount of moaning about things being off-topic. I'm pretty much infinitely more interested in Laserdisc players than I am on bloody memory cards for PCs. We've had a lengthy spiel about what kind of ISA card you can use to bring a PC-XT up to 640k, with barely a murmur about how on- or off-topic it might be. Now we get something that's vaguely interesting and not mass-market commodity PC bits, and it's somehow off-topic? Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 18:34:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:34:57 -0800 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711101914.07524.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <4735D5A2.6647.1529323@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711101914.07524.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4735DDB1.9942.1720F16@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 19:14, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Heh. I do know about those, though it's been a *really* long time since I've > encountered one. I don't know that this guy would've known what I was > talking about, though, he was younger than I am... When I was *much* younger, I used to run into them occasionally. The BED coding made no practical sense to me. DEB would have made more sense, allowing one to recognize the multiplier with a glance, instead of grabbing the resistor and maniuplating it to see if what you have is a 470 or 47K ohm reisstor. When these things were soldered tightly to mounting strips in military equipment, it could get to be downright frustrating. Another one to confuse-a-boss would be 6-dot mica capacitor color code (one could find these on 1960's computer equipment). I probably still have a few of these in operation. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 18:36:06 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:36:06 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <4735DDB1.9942.1720F16@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711101914.07524.rtellason@verizon.net> <4735DDB1.9942.1720F16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711101936.06303.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 November 2007 19:34, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another one to confuse-a-boss would be 6-dot mica capacitor color > code (one could find these on 1960's computer equipment). I probably > still have a few of these in operation. Yes, and those still confuse me, too, sometimes... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 10 18:29:36 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:29:36 +0000 Subject: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47364CF0.40503@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/11/2007 22:14, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Nov 2007 at 15:04, Jay West wrote: >> Someone wrote.... >>> Actually laserdiscs certainly are >> That's a stretch... I'm not buying it :) They were commonly used for computer interactive video especially for CAI systems. A company I worked for in the mid-to-late 80s installed hundreds of PC-based systems with Pioneer LV players, one at every main Jaguar dealership, and I was one of the repair staff for the Pioneer kit. > Do any of the cclist-ers in the UK still have any LV-ROMs and > hardware? I'd be willing to wager that Tony does. :) I have a set of the LV-ROMs. I had a Domesday system many years ago, but with my usual lack of foresight, I sold it around 1989. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 18:40:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:40:50 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <200711101742.18532.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4735B746.32055.DBFEDF@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711101742.18532.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4735DF12.19368.17772BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 17:42, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Indeed. Assuming that I run CP/M-80, that is. This strikes me as a nice > opportunity to do some hacking, and to maybe start out with that but to end > up with something a little further along, given the constraints of the > hardware (address space, etc.). ZCPR has some nice ideas, for example, > but I'm not sure I like the way some of those things got implemented. Ah > well, first thing I need to do is figure out how I'm going to use it, stuff > it in a box with PS, and hook it up with a serial cable. Then go on from > there. Doesn't anyone hack into "Freecycle" giveaway TVs anymore for video monitors? True, they're probably hot-chassis, but an optoisolator or three will take care of that. My TV Typewriter used an old tube-type Zenith portable TV for a couple of years until I glommed onto a real monitor (some surplus Four-Phase units). Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 10 18:50:49 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:50:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) Message-ID: <202220.72143.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Jay wrote: >> >> Ok, I'll trump your VCD with... >> >> Laserdisc Is this thread somewhat vaguely related to classic computing? Yup. The first (and only) time I saw a laserdisc was around 1991. I was at school and among the Acorn Archemedes in the computer room (so called because it was full of computers!) was a newfangled piece of kit. It looked like a vinyl LP player, but had a shiny disc on it the size of an LP. We were told not to go near it , presumably because of the laser. When the teacher left the room at lunchbreak some of us did take a closer look, but being about 12 at the time (and having never owned a CD player at that time) I was rather clueless as to what it was. I know laserdiscs are largely used for films (hence why I can see why Jay thought they were off-topic), but I believe this one had some sort of software on it. Not sure now whether the laserdisc player was hooked up to one of the Archemedes, or some new computer. Almost all the computers at school were Acorn Archemedes, except for a handfull of BBC's. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From grant at stockly.com Sat Nov 10 19:16:30 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:16:30 -0900 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0JRB009AXIAO5800@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 02:09 PM 11/10/2007, you wrote: >All: > > Now that the weather in the Northeast is cold again, I?m picking up on >some old projects, among which is the floppy system for my IMSAI. > > Here?s what I want ? a 5.25? dual-disk system running CP/M 2.2 (my IMSAI >has a Z80 board in it). > > Here?s what I have ? plenty of 5.25? TM100 and equivalent drives, a >CompuPro Disk 1 and an SD Sales Versafloppy (not II). The Versafloppy >specifies SA400/450, but I think other 5.25? drives will work. > > Here?s what I don?t have ? a working disk image for either of the above. >Dave Dunfield has a disk image for a Disk 1A but it?s from an 8? original. >Also, the ComprPro controller seems to require modifying the IMSAI front >panel to disable it (by removing the ground on pin 20 IIRC). I really don?t >want to modify the front panel. I browsed the Versafloppy manual quickly and >it doesn?t seem to require modifications to the host machine. > > Given this, does anyone have a Versafloppy image I can use? >Alternatively, I?d gladly trade what I have for a board/disk that would >work. I would even consider trading other stuff for it, including the 8? >drive system I have that is the bane of my existence. I have some of those cards too, but no images either. I hope you have more luck than me. I'm about to get out the big guns and hook up a logic analyzer to the disk drive. It doesn't seem to be reading sectors reliably. : ( Grant From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 19:22:00 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:22:00 -0500 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <4735DF12.19368.17772BA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711101742.18532.rtellason@verizon.net> <4735DF12.19368.17772BA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711102022.02561.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 November 2007 19:40, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Nov 2007 at 17:42, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Indeed. Assuming that I run CP/M-80, that is. This strikes me as a > > nice opportunity to do some hacking, and to maybe start out with that > > but to end up with something a little further along, given the > > constraints of the hardware (address space, etc.). ZCPR has some nice > > ideas, for example, but I'm not sure I like the way some of those > > things got implemented. Ah well, first thing I need to do is figure out > > how I'm going to use it, stuff it in a box with PS, and hook it up with > > a serial cable. Then go on from there. > > Doesn't anyone hack into "Freecycle" giveaway TVs anymore for video > monitors? It's been a *really* long time since I considered the idea of converting a tv to a monitor... These days monitors are *not* a problem. :-) Back then, I didn't have much in the way of monitors kicking around, and had not (yet) heard of freecycle. We're talking over 15 years ago here. > True, they're probably hot-chassis, but an optoisolator or three will take > care of that. My TV Typewriter used an old tube-type Zenith portable TV for > a couple of years until I glommed onto a real monitor (some surplus > Four-Phase units). I'm sure that as far as that goes I can manage something. It's figuring out some of this other stuff that has me stalled for now. CRC? BIOS? Hooking up 3.5" drives? A HD? We'll see how far I get... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 19:56:29 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:56:29 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <4735DDB1.9942.1720F16@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4735D5A2.6647.1529323@cclist.sydex.com> <200711101914.07524.rtellason@verizon.net> <4735DDB1.9942.1720F16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > When I was *much* younger, I used to run into them occasionally. > The BED coding made no practical sense to me. DEB would have made > more sense, allowing one to recognize the multiplier with a glance, > instead of grabbing the resistor and maniuplating it to see if what > you have is a 470 or 47K ohm reisstor. When these things were > soldered tightly to mounting strips in military equipment, it could > get to be downright frustrating. It should be noted that BED resistors were almost never used by the US military. The exception was during a few years in the 1930s, and only in a few pieces of equipment. By 1940, the US military had gone completely with the stripe system. > Another one to confuse-a-boss would be 6-dot mica capacitor color > code (one could find these on 1960's computer equipment). I probably > still have a few of these in operation. It should also be noted that there never was a universally adopted color code scheme for capacitors. The RMA tried for many years to get the manufacturers to adhere to the standards, but were very unsuccessful. The best scheme when dealing with these is to look for the two dots that make sense as the value, and see if the next, often around the corner, is a valid multiplier color. While not a common occurence, I have seen the color coded "postage stamp" caps on IBM SMS cards from the 1960 era. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 20:06:11 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:06:11 -0500 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: <200711101825.28028.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711101825.28028.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > No, not these days, but back when 20% tolerance parts were common you'd run > into stuff like that from time to time. 5.0 was a standard value in an earlier system, in the early 1930s. Three other things to consider with your quiz resistor: Was the first band twice as thick as the others? If so, it was wirewound, and can be thought of as being one standard size bigger for power dissipation. Was the body color a light tan, rather than standard brown? If so, it was insulated. This part of the standard died quickly, as the method of making resistors out of solid chunks of carbon with no insulation on the outer skin went away. And very unlikely with a 20 percent resistor (no tolerance band), was there one more band, in the fifth position? This was used for some time by the military to signify all sorts of things, like reliability, stability, and so forth. Univac fell in love with the fifth band. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 20:26:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:26:02 -0800 Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. In-Reply-To: References: , <4735DDB1.9942.1720F16@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4735F7BA.14127.1D7BE4F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 20:56, William Donzelli wrote: > It should be noted that BED resistors were almost never used by the US > military. The exception was during a few years in the 1930s, and only > in a few pieces of equipment. By 1940, the US military had gone > completely with the stripe system. It's entirely possible that I recall a piece of commercial gear, not military. But they were frustrating to read when soldered in. > unsuccessful. The best scheme when dealing with these is to look for > the two dots that make sense as the value, and see if the next, often > around the corner, is a valid multiplier color. I'll still take those over caps whose value is given by little glued- on bits of paper. I've got some GTE gear that's built like that. Curiously, the postage-stamp (Sangamo) micas don't have the color dots filled in, but rather have the value printed on the reverse side. > While not a common occurence, I have seen the color coded "postage > stamp" caps on IBM SMS cards from the 1960 era. I've got a couple on some MPI floppy drives were I needed to adjust the LP filtering on. I had some mica caps scavenged from some 60's vacuum-tube computer gear that I pressed into use. They're still in the circuit and working just fine. Cheers, Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Nov 10 21:08:55 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:08:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Oddball hard drive failure... In-Reply-To: <4734322E.9000405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4733A4F6.3020103@yahoo.co.uk> <4734322E.9000405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Exactly the same with my drive. Cleaning the top magnet wasn't so bad as > I could take it to the sink to do it and really work at it, but I > couldn't do much for the lower one - and obviously removing the whole > head assembly is a bad idea ;) > > I don't think it's a failure mode I've ever seen mentioned on the list > before. I wonder it's it's one that's going to become more and more > common as the drives age, though? :-( If you can get enough access to it, try a small length of steel wire or maybe a small nail. It will pick up the magnetic junk that's stuck to the magnet. I've seen this sort of thing in high end VU meters used in the meter bridges of large studio mixers before. Talk about a huge mess... Some of the Simpson 260 meter movements had the same sort of problem, though AFAIK they didn't use rare earth magnets. From jam at magic.com Sat Nov 10 21:28:17 2007 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:28:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP2116 inventory Message-ID: <200711110328.TAA12193@magellan.magic.com> We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store' and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the panels earlier. I did a quick inventory: 2116B 2116C 2160A (PSU) 2161A (PSU) 2748A (tape reader) HP1016C (two - 512 track drum) One of our guys managed to flip the front door catches (the keys for the machines are long-gone), so I was able to take a board listing too: 2116B: slot board 1 pwr fail / AR 10 sense amplifier 11 sense amplifier 12 sense amplifier 13 sense amplifier 14 driver switch 15 driver switch 16 inhibit driver 18 inhibit driver 20 DML 22 sense amplifier 101 A101 102 A102-105 103 A102-105 104 A102-105 106 A106 107 A107 108 A108 110 EAU logic 111 EAU timing 116 DMA word count 117 DMA word count 118 DMA address enc. 119 DMA control 120 DMA packer 201 A201 202 central interr. 211 I/O multiplexor 214 tape reader 216 I/O multiplexor 218 buss loader 2116C: slot board 101 A101 102 A102-105 103 A102-105 104 A102-105 105 A102-105 106 A106 107 A107 201 A201 205 A108 206 MDB / A13 207 power fail 208 power fail 209 power fail 210 power fail 211 power fail 212 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 213 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 214 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 215 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 216 MMD / A2 217 sense amplifier 218 MMD / A2 219 driver switch / A8,9,14,15 220 MDB / A13 things found kicking around in the 2116C case: Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ferroxcube corporation) Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ampex) Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7 (international scientific) 'short' board, HP assy. 02116-8015 'short' board, HP assy. 02160-60031 power fail board (identical to the ones in card slots) unknown full-size board, HP 1150-1198. Most of the boards sitting in the card slots are just loose, i.e. not plugged into the backplane, so there's no guarantee they're in the right place (the bottom row of the 2116C machine looks particularly disorganised). Anyone familiar with the systems know if this is anything like two machines' worth though? Or is it some sort of dual-cabinet system, and one crate was likely just I/O with the other for CPU? Nice to finally see inside them anyway, as for all we knew they could have been completely stripped out inside.. From jam at magic.com Sat Nov 10 21:37:33 2007 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:37:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP2116 inventory Message-ID: <200711110337.TAA12248@magellan.magic.com> Jules, > We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store' > and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the > panels earlier. It appears that many of the boards, especially in the 2116C, have just been placed into arbitrary slots. You will also need to double-check some of the part numbers on the boards to be sure that the 2116B and 2116C boards have not been put into the wrong chassis. For example, it may be that some of the boards in the 2116B are 2116C boards and vice versa. I can send you a more complete list of which boards belong in which slots, but that will be just part of the story, in order to get these machines running. Overall, it looks like you have close to a complete 2116C and 2116B, though you are missing the I/O boards that would have been used in a dual processor system. James Markevitch From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 10 21:49:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:49:54 -0600 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Chuck wrote..... > Jay, would you mind if I took the subject back O[n]T[opic]? Granted! Pete & Andrew and yourself do make a case {which I still don't totally buy, but I can see the point partially}. However, lets please keep it on a tight reign and not delve too deeply into video stuff. Knowing this crowd, if I give carte blanche to LVrom discussion, then we'll get into a long discussion of video encoding. Then camera resolution will come up. Then pretty soon people will be arguing that we can talk about cars because cameras can take pictures of cars. Next will be formulation of asphalt. Not gonna happen. So sure, put LVrom back on topic... but lets not wander very far with it. Chuck - by the way - thanks for both asking and making a cogent case. Gordon wrote.... > Do you know what? I think I've finally reached my "It's off-topic" > saturation point. Not the amount of off-topic content, but the amount of > moaning about things being off-topic. Yes, I counted to 10 before responding to this, and it was a rather painful 10 seconds. The more watered-down/redacted version follows: Last I checked, I was not moaning - I was moderating; and I will continue to do so to the best of my abilities and using my best judgement to keep things on-topic. I think that a very large percentage of the list agrees with most of my moderation choices. No one will be 100% in agreement with them so I won't try (a moderator who attempts to please 100% of the people will please none). In my own opinion and in the opinions many have expressed to me - I am guilty of not "moaning" nearly enough. So Gordon, my apologies in advance, but you're going to see a definite increase in my "moaning" if people continue to get off-topic. I have two tools to use in that effort - public and/or private reminders to steer things back, and suspensions of listmembers from the list. I'd vastly prefer to use the former. ...[snip]... >We've had a lengthy spiel about what kind of ISA card you can use to bring a PC-XT up to 640k, with barely a murmur about how on- or off-topic it might be. I suspect there was no murmer about it because it's pretty clearly on-topic. It's not my own personal cup of tea, but that doesn't matter in my treatment of it. Best regards, Jay West From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Nov 10 22:09:55 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 23:09:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) In-Reply-To: <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <200711110423.XAA22372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Do you know what? I think I've finally reached my "It's off-topic" >> saturation point. Not the amount of off-topic content, but the >> amount of moaning about things being off-topic. > Last I checked, I was not moaning - I was moderating; and I will > continue to do so to the best of my abilities and using my best > judgement to keep things on-topic. [...] In my own opinion and in > the opinions many have expressed to me - I am guilty of not "moaning" > nearly enough. Well, for all that I am apparently a statistical outlier, I take the opposite view; I think you're going somewhat too far. Yes, I have little interest in, say, cars or cameras - but not none, and I consider (or would consider) the parts I'm uninterested in the price for the discussions I am interested in, such as the CD player I had trouble with recently, or the (non-computerized) oscilloscope I had trouble with back in Feburary - I heard nothing about the latter's on-topicness or lack thereof, though that could have been just because it was before Jay got fed up and started cracking down. That said, I do recognize that it's not my list, and that Jay has a tough job trying to walk a line acceptable to everyone between being too strict and being too lax; it's not for me to say his choices are wrong, even if they're not the choices I would make. So, Jay, consider this a voice speaking up in balance to all those other voices you refer to, if you would - for whatever attention you choose to pay to it; I also recognize that the list government is ultimately a dictatorship, not a democracy, and that you are under no obligation to pay attention to *any* of our opinons on the matter. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fernande at internet1.net Sat Nov 10 22:35:11 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 23:35:11 -0500 Subject: OFF LIST--------Re: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4736867F.4050506@internet1.net> Jay West wrote: > Then pretty soon people will be arguing that we > can talk about cars because cameras can take pictures of cars. Next will > be formulation of asphalt. Jay, I laughed when I read that, but your probably right. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Sat Nov 10 23:01:26 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:01:26 -0500 Subject: OFF LIST--------Re: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <4736867F.4050506@internet1.net> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4736867F.4050506@internet1.net> Message-ID: <47368CA6.5040402@internet1.net> Ooops, I guess that wasn't off list after all From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 10 23:24:29 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:24:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone interested in some Xyplex terminal servers? In-Reply-To: from Scott Quinn at "Nov 10, 7 09:46:25 am" Message-ID: <200711110524.lAB5OTpD012610@floodgap.com> I had a little glitch with my E-mail server today -- if you replied to this, would you mind replying again? If you didn't, my apologies for bugging you. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 10 23:27:49 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:27:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone interested in some Xyplex terminal servers? In-Reply-To: <200711110524.lAB5OTpD012610@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Nov 10, 7 09:24:29 pm" Message-ID: <200711110527.lAB5Rn03012584@floodgap.com> > I had a little glitch with my E-mail server today -- if you replied to this, > would you mind replying again? If you didn't, my apologies for bugging you. And, it would appear, with my E-mail client. *sighs about wrong reply addresses* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Windows detected a gnat farting near your computer. Press any key to reboot. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 10 23:34:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:34:43 -0800 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) In-Reply-To: <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <473623F3.21436.2847E18@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 21:49, Jay West wrote: > Granted! Pete & Andrew and yourself do make a case {which I still don't > totally buy, but I can see the point partially}. However, lets please keep > it on a tight reign and not delve too deeply into video stuff. Fair enough. We all have our own peculiar interests and that's what keeps the list fun and interesting. Otherwise talking endlessly about ones DEC equipment might get a bit monotonous. ;) I have a strong interest in media and less of one in real iron. Ultimately, I think that historians will find our media (if it survives) more interesting than our machines. Thanks, Chuck From jeffj at panix.com Sat Nov 10 15:03:18 2007 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:03:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: old Laserdisk players Message-ID: > OK I'll bring it back around.....during VCF Midwest I saw a > DEC-branded Laserdisc unit at Pat's computer wonderland. Was it a top loader or a tray? I pulled apart an old InfoTrac library system that used a Pioneer LD-V1000 since CD-ROM drives were not yet available. Top loader, CAV disks only. Real He-Ne laser on the sled. The Centronix connector was a proprietory parallel port controlling video playback, getting frame # and it allowed reading digital data if it was recorded in that format (video playback was still NTSC, no digital at all, not even a frame buffer). citing http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/pioneer/pioneer_ld-v1000/pioneer_ld-v1000.htm This is an NTSC laser disc player that was used in Astron Belt (with proper hardware), Badlands (with different EPROM), Casino Strip, Cobra Command (with proper hardware), Dragon's Lair, Esh's Aurunmilla, Galaxy Ranger (with proper hardware), Interstellar, Space Ace, Super Don Quixote, and Thayer's Quest From brucebaur at att.net Sat Nov 10 15:32:55 2007 From: brucebaur at att.net (Bruce Baur) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:32:55 -0800 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? Message-ID: <004f01c823e1$42604bc0$6400a8c0@bruce24> Jay Did you ever come up with a fix for the DC300 tension loop that breaks? I have two Tektronix 4051 computers that works great. I just wish I could save some of the tapes. Thanks for any help you might be able to extend, Bruce From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Nov 10 23:33:27 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:33:27 -0800 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? Message-ID: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> I picked up a Data I/O 280 programmer this weekend, without manuals or software. According to Data I/O's webpage, it's no longer supported at all, so they have nothing available for download/purchase/whatever. Anyone have software/manuals/anything for this thing? Thanks as always, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 11 00:16:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:16:29 -0800 Subject: Who wants some press in south florida? In-Reply-To: <004f01c823e1$42604bc0$6400a8c0@bruce24> References: <004f01c823e1$42604bc0$6400a8c0@bruce24> Message-ID: <47362DBD.15785.2AABB17@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2007 at 13:32, Bruce Baur wrote: > Did you ever come up with a fix for the DC300 tension loop that breaks? > > I have two Tektronix 4051 computers that works great. I just wish I could save some of the tapes. > > Thanks for any help you might be able to extend, Use the 4" Plastibands. They work fine. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Nov 11 01:28:12 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 23:28:12 -0800 Subject: Laserdiscs preservation, archival, lifetime In-Reply-To: <47368CA6.5040402@internet1.net> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4736867F.4050506@internet1.net> <47368CA6.5040402@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4736AF0C.3070703@msm.umr.edu> Chad Fernandez wrote: > Ooops, I guess that wasn't off list after all would some of you reply to me off list about this. I would ask AEK, but figure that laserdisk contents aren't software contents, and not what he has time to dive into anyway. Maybe Roy's list if he'd host a rathole. (not to include asphalt formuation). I have a few weird ones that I'd like to preserve, including some for some game consoles, but with their encoding have no idea how to preserve, and also because they are giving my players fits, may be damaged beyond repair already. Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 11 01:35:19 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:35:19 -0700 Subject: HP2116 inventory References: <4735F7CC.3050808@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4736B0B7.38E06BA7@cs.ubc.ca> An overview of the 2116B & C configuration can be found at: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/HP2116.html A lot of the information you need to get the boards sorted out and installed correctly is provided there. bitsavers has lots of manuals for the 2116B. When I was working on my 2116C I garnered a lot of info from the 2116B manuals, however if someone has service manuals for the C it would be nice if scans could eventually find their way to bitsavers. > 2160A (PSU) > 2161A (PSU) These shouldn't be necessary to get the processors going, other than to ask whether there was some alteration within the processors to accomodate their connection that needs to be undone. > 2116B: > > slot board > 1 pwr fail / AR > 10 sense amplifier > 11 sense amplifier > 12 sense amplifier > 13 sense amplifier > 14 driver switch > 15 driver switch > 16 inhibit driver > 18 inhibit driver > 20 DML > 22 sense amplifier > 101 A101 > 102 A102-105 > 103 A102-105 > 104 A102-105 > 106 A106 > 107 A107 > 108 A108 > 110 EAU logic > 111 EAU timing > 116 DMA word count > 117 DMA word count > 118 DMA address enc. > 119 DMA control > 120 DMA packer > 201 A201 > 202 central interr. > 211 I/O multiplexor > 214 tape reader > 216 I/O multiplexor > 218 buss loader This would appear to be an almost complete 2116B and could be made more complete with stuff from below. The proviso may be the state of the core stacks behind the backplane (more below). You may be short one 'driver switch' board which may limit how much of the core can be used. Might be interesting to figure out just which type of mux board those two are. You should be able to correlate their numbers to something listed on: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/iointerfaces.html > 2116C: > > slot board > 101 A101 > 102 A102-105 > 103 A102-105 > 104 A102-105 > 105 A102-105 > 106 A106 > 107 A107 > 201 A201 > 205 A108 > 206 MDB / A13 > 207 power fail > 208 power fail > 209 power fail > 210 power fail > 211 power fail > 212 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 > 213 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 > 214 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 > 215 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 > 216 MMD / A2 > 217 sense amplifier > 218 MMD / A2 > 219 driver switch / A8,9,14,15 > 220 MDB / A13 A second set of CPU boards is there but most of the second half of this list is memory stuff for the B. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any memory for the 2116C; and it's also missing the MAD/A14 board. Weird that there are so many power-fail boards - only one is required per machine. > things found kicking around in the 2116C case: > > Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ferroxcube > corporation) > Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ampex) > Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7 (international > scientific) If these are 'cubes' they sound more like the core stacks for the 2116B, although I don't really understand the numbers on some of the connector labels, as they don't correlate with the board locations I would expect, but I've never actually played with a B. In the 2116B the core stacks are mounted behind the backplane. Be interesting to find out whether the core stacks back there are intact or missing. If you haven't figured out yet how to access this area, it's on my web pages. It's not obvious, but quite cool the way the machine opens up. (The core for the C is on standard-size boards labeled "SSA") > 'short' board, HP assy. 02116-8015 This is a regulator control board for the power supply, I believe for the 2116C. There are some subtle differences between the equivalent boards in the B & C. Once again you need to access the interior of the cabinet to find out whether it's missing from one machine or a duplicate. > 'short' board, HP assy. 02160-60031 (Based on the part number it's presumably something to do with the 2160 power supply extender.) > power fail board (identical to the ones in card slots) (.. yet more (?)) > unknown full-size board, HP 1150-1198. Don't know about that one. > I *assume* the pair of drums go with them, but there's no guarantee there (I'm > just not sure what they *do* belong with if it isn't these machines :-) That would be neat if they did, except that I don't see the IO interface boards for them listed. There's not much in the way of I/O interface boards in either of the lists but I think you could hope to at least get the 2116B to the blinkenlights stage (toggling a blinkenlights program into core and executing it, and which will of course stay there so it doesn't have to be retoggled every time it's powered up.) Good luck, should be a fun project. If those loose core stacks are the only ones present I just hope they haven't been bashed around too much. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 11 01:35:19 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:35:19 -0700 Subject: HP2116 inventory References: <4735F7CC.3050808@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4736B0B7.38E06BA7@cs.ubc.ca> An overview of the 2116B & C configuration can be found at: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/HP2116.html A lot of the information you need to get the boards sorted out and installed correctly is provided there. bitsavers has lots of manuals for the 2116B. When I was working on my 2116C I garnered a lot of info from the 2116B manuals, however if someone has service manuals for the C it would be nice if scans could eventually find their way to bitsavers. > 2160A (PSU) > 2161A (PSU) These shouldn't be necessary to get the processors going, other than to ask whether there was some alteration within the processors to accomodate their connection that needs to be undone. > 2116B: > > slot board > 1 pwr fail / AR > 10 sense amplifier > 11 sense amplifier > 12 sense amplifier > 13 sense amplifier > 14 driver switch > 15 driver switch > 16 inhibit driver > 18 inhibit driver > 20 DML > 22 sense amplifier > 101 A101 > 102 A102-105 > 103 A102-105 > 104 A102-105 > 106 A106 > 107 A107 > 108 A108 > 110 EAU logic > 111 EAU timing > 116 DMA word count > 117 DMA word count > 118 DMA address enc. > 119 DMA control > 120 DMA packer > 201 A201 > 202 central interr. > 211 I/O multiplexor > 214 tape reader > 216 I/O multiplexor > 218 buss loader This would appear to be an almost complete 2116B and could be made more complete with stuff from below. The proviso may be the state of the core stacks behind the backplane (more below). You may be short one 'driver switch' board which may limit how much of the core can be used. Might be interesting to figure out just which type of mux board those two are. You should be able to correlate their numbers to something listed on: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/iointerfaces.html > 2116C: > > slot board > 101 A101 > 102 A102-105 > 103 A102-105 > 104 A102-105 > 105 A102-105 > 106 A106 > 107 A107 > 201 A201 > 205 A108 > 206 MDB / A13 > 207 power fail > 208 power fail > 209 power fail > 210 power fail > 211 power fail > 212 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 > 213 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 > 214 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 > 215 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 > 216 MMD / A2 > 217 sense amplifier > 218 MMD / A2 > 219 driver switch / A8,9,14,15 > 220 MDB / A13 A second set of CPU boards is there but most of the second half of this list is memory stuff for the B. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any memory for the 2116C; and it's also missing the MAD/A14 board. Weird that there are so many power-fail boards - only one is required per machine. > things found kicking around in the 2116C case: > > Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ferroxcube > corporation) > Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ampex) > Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7 (international > scientific) If these are 'cubes' they sound more like the core stacks for the 2116B, although I don't really understand the numbers on some of the connector labels, as they don't correlate with the board locations I would expect, but I've never actually played with a B. In the 2116B the core stacks are mounted behind the backplane. Be interesting to find out whether the core stacks back there are intact or missing. If you haven't figured out yet how to access this area, it's on my web pages. It's not obvious, but quite cool the way the machine opens up. (The core for the C is on standard-size boards labeled "SSA") > 'short' board, HP assy. 02116-8015 This is a regulator control board for the power supply, I believe for the 2116C. There are some subtle differences between the equivalent boards in the B & C. Once again you need to access the interior of the cabinet to find out whether it's missing from one machine or a duplicate. > 'short' board, HP assy. 02160-60031 (Based on the part number it's presumably something to do with the 2160 power supply extender.) > power fail board (identical to the ones in card slots) (.. yet more (?)) > unknown full-size board, HP 1150-1198. Don't know about that one. > I *assume* the pair of drums go with them, but there's no guarantee there (I'm > just not sure what they *do* belong with if it isn't these machines :-) That would be neat if they did, except that I don't see the IO interface boards for them listed. There's not much in the way of I/O interface boards in either of the lists but I think you could hope to at least get the 2116B to the blinkenlights stage (toggling a blinkenlights program into core and executing it, and which will of course stay there so it doesn't have to be retoggled every time it's powered up.) Good luck, should be a fun project. If those loose core stacks are the only ones present I just hope they haven't been bashed around too much. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Nov 11 03:23:17 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:23:17 +0000 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) In-Reply-To: <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> , <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> On Sat, 2007-11-10 at 21:49 -0600, Jay West wrote: > am guilty of not "moaning" nearly enough. So Gordon, my apologies in > advance, but you're going to see a definite increase in my "moaning" > if > people continue to get off-topic. I have two tools to use in that > effort - > public and/or private reminders to steer things back, and suspensions > of > listmembers from the list. I'd vastly prefer to use the former. > > ...[snip]... >We've had a lengthy spiel about what kind of ISA card > you can > use to bring a PC-XT up to 640k, with barely a murmur about how on- > or > off-topic it might be. > I suspect there was no murmer about it because it's pretty clearly > on-topic. > It's not my own personal cup of tea, but that doesn't matter in my > treatment > of it. There is no bloody way that LIM EMS cards are on-topic for any reason that they're more than ten years old! I've really enjoyed a lot of the discussions we've all had on the list, but lately it seems to be turning from Classic Computing to "Jay's Modern PC and Commodore PET" list - granted, a PET is a classic, but there seems to be no room for discussion of anything else. Gordon. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Nov 11 04:45:56 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:45:56 +0100 Subject: VXT2000+ Message-ID: Hi all, I am about to throw out a complete VXT2000+ Shipping overseas is probably not worth it (I am in The Neterlands), but if somebody needs a specific part, I am willing to disassemble the VXT before it becomes landfill. The VXT is in good shape AFAIK, but can not test it ... Henk, PA8PDP From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 05:05:58 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:05:58 +1100 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST><4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com><006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <002a01c82453$9c54d570$0100a8c0@pentium> > I've really enjoyed a lot of the discussions we've all had on the list, > but lately it seems to be turning from Classic Computing to "Jay's > Modern PC and Commodore PET" list - granted, a PET is a classic, but > there seems to be no room for discussion of anything else. Actually it's been good to see topics other than the usual serving of PDP related stuff that is the usual fare of the list. For me "classic" computers are the ones created between 1977 & 1990ish & yes, this includes the early IBM PC's.Until the PET thread started I was getting seriously bored with the list, now it's interesting again. Lance // http://www.commodore128.org // From ama at ugr.es Sun Nov 11 05:47:38 2007 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:47:38 +0100 Subject: VXT2000+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071111114738.GB30657@darwin.ugr.es> Hi Henk, On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 11:45:56AM +0100, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I am about to throw out a complete VXT2000+ > Shipping overseas is probably not worth it > (I am in The Neterlands), but if somebody > needs a specific part, I am willing to disassemble > the VXT before it becomes landfill. The VXT is > in good shape AFAIK, but can not test it ... I might be interested on the terminal if shipping price permits :-) How much could it be to ship to Granada, Spain? Thanks and greetings, ?ngel -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Nov 11 06:01:32 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:01:32 +0100 Subject: VXT2000+ In-Reply-To: <20071111114738.GB30657@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20071111114738.GB30657@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: Hi ?ngel, I checked the TPG website. Pity that the unit is just over 5 kilos, that would have saved 5 euro. Shipping inside Europe will be 24 euros. I have to find a good box to ship it safely ...If you are interested, send me an off-list e-mail. BTW, I have been in Granada and seen the beautiful Alhambra! thanks, Henk > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:47:38 +0100> From: ama at ugr.es> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: VXT2000+> > Hi Henk,> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 11:45:56AM +0100, Henk Gooijen wrote:> > I am about to throw out a complete VXT2000+> > Shipping overseas is probably not worth it> > (I am in The Neterlands), but if somebody> > needs a specific part, I am willing to disassemble> > the VXT before it becomes landfill. The VXT is> > in good shape AFAIK, but can not test it ... > > I might be interested on the terminal if shipping price permits :-)> > How much could it be to ship to Granada, Spain?> > Thanks and greetings,> ?ngel> > -- > Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926> Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073> Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es> C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama/> E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org> PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key> 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591> ------------------------------------------------------> () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/> /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments> http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 11 08:29:21 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:29:21 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question In-Reply-To: <0JRB009AXIAO5800@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: Oh, I also just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This model has only a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller. On 11/10/07 8:16 PM, "Grant Stockly" wrote: > At 02:09 PM 11/10/2007, you wrote: >> All: >> >> Now that the weather in the Northeast is cold again, I?m picking up on >> some old projects, among which is the floppy system for my IMSAI. >> >> Here?s what I want ? a 5.25? dual-disk system running CP/M 2.2 (my IMSAI >> has a Z80 board in it). >> >> Here?s what I have ? plenty of 5.25? TM100 and equivalent drives, a >> CompuPro Disk 1 and an SD Sales Versafloppy (not II). The Versafloppy >> specifies SA400/450, but I think other 5.25? drives will work. >> >> Here?s what I don?t have ? a working disk image for either of the above. >> Dave Dunfield has a disk image for a Disk 1A but it?s from an 8? original. >> Also, the ComprPro controller seems to require modifying the IMSAI front >> panel to disable it (by removing the ground on pin 20 IIRC). I really don?t >> want to modify the front panel. I browsed the Versafloppy manual quickly and >> it doesn?t seem to require modifications to the host machine. >> >> Given this, does anyone have a Versafloppy image I can use? >> Alternatively, I?d gladly trade what I have for a board/disk that would >> work. I would even consider trading other stuff for it, including the 8? >> drive system I have that is the bane of my existence. > > I have some of those cards too, but no images either. > > I hope you have more luck than me. I'm about to > get out the big guns and hook up a logic analyzer > to the disk drive. It doesn't seem to be reading sectors reliably. : ( > > Grant > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Nov 11 09:55:37 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:55:37 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071111155537.8451FBA4698@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Oh, I also just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This > model has only a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so > I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller. Well, originally intended for 8" drives, but with a suitable adapter cable glue and a slightly modified BIOS it'll do 5.25" and 3.5" drives. Tim. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 11 10:23:02 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:23:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) In-Reply-To: <1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Nov 11, 7 09:23:17 am" Message-ID: <200711111623.lABGN2fD012928@floodgap.com> > There is no bloody way that LIM EMS cards are on-topic for any reason > that they're more than ten years old! That's pretty narrow. Hardly anyone except old DOS guys still even knows what EMS is. I think it qualifies on more than just age. > I've really enjoyed a lot of the discussions we've all had on the list, > but lately it seems to be turning from Classic Computing to "Jay's > Modern PC and Commodore PET" list - granted, a PET is a classic, but > there seems to be no room for discussion of anything else. And others complain that the list is nothing but PDP musings, so I guess one man's ceiling is another man's floor. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Smile if you like this tag line. ------------------------------------------- From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 11 10:23:30 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:23:30 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question In-Reply-To: <20071111155537.8451FBA4698@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the same category in my mind as the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not requiring mods to my IMSAI. Now the thousand-dollar question -- does anyone have a suitable disk image I could use? On 11/11/07 10:55 AM, "Tim Shoppa" wrote: > "Richard A. Cini" wrote: >> Oh, I also just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This >> model has only a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so >> I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller. > > Well, originally intended for 8" drives, but with a suitable adapter > cable glue and a slightly modified BIOS it'll do 5.25" and 3.5" drives. > > Tim. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Nov 11 10:30:20 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:30:20 +0000 Subject: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <47364CF0.40503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > On 10/11/2007 22:14, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 10 Nov 2007 at 15:04, Jay West wrote: >>> Someone wrote.... >>>> Actually laserdiscs certainly are >>> That's a stretch... I'm not buying it :) > > >> Do any of the cclist-ers in the UK still have any LV-ROMs and >> hardware? I'd be willing to wager that Tony does. :) Yep, I've got two complete Domesday systems (one of which was one of Philips' own demo machines) and one of the BBC's own Domesday Title generator systems incorporating a Cox Genlock: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/domesday/index.php -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From marvin at west.net Sun Nov 11 10:33:47 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:33:47 -0800 Subject: old Laserdisk players Message-ID: <47372EEB.275D0204@west.net> I still have 30 or 40 LD-V1000s (basically NOS) so I didn't feel too bad about tearing one of them (that didn't work the first time) apart. What I found interesting is that they use a Z80 as the processor. Also, most of the ones I have gave significant picture jitter when I first checked them out. Turned out that there is a pot inside that has a connection to where the laser is on the disk. That pot somehow got "noisy" over the past 15 - 20 years they have been sitting and a combination of contact cleaners made the machine operate as new again. And the service manual is available on-line at the Dragon's-Lair-Project website. As an aside, that website also has the diagrams to make up a centronics plug to be able to start the laserdisk playing. *REALLY* nice for checking out a unit! A friend of mine also has all of the alignment jigs in case I wanted to go that far into repairing these things. > From: Jeff Jonas > > I pulled apart an old InfoTrac library system that used a > Pioneer LD-V1000 since CD-ROM drives were not yet available. > Top loader, CAV disks only. Real He-Ne laser on the sled. > The Centronix connector was a proprietory parallel port > controlling video playback, getting frame # > and it allowed reading digital data if it was recorded in that format > (video playback was still NTSC, no digital at all, not even a frame buffer). From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 11 11:11:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:11:14 -0800 Subject: HP2116 inventory Message-ID: <473737B2.4080604@bitsavers.org> > if someone has service > manuals for the C it would be nice if scans could eventually find their way to bitsavers. I have a lot of material for the C as well as B from a large collection I obtained a few years ago. The only thing I don't appear to have are the schematics for the 2116A. All this needs to get sorted out to be included with material available through the HP/CHM agreement. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 11:16:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:16:48 -0500 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? In-Reply-To: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> Message-ID: <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> On Nov 11, 2007, at 12:33 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I picked up a Data I/O 280 programmer this weekend, without manuals > or software. According to Data I/O's webpage, it's no longer > supported at all, so they have nothing available for download/ > purchase/whatever. Anyone have software/manuals/anything for this > thing? I sold a 280 with documentation on eBay about a year ago...that's as close as I can get. :-( I don't recall it having been difficult to use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 11:27:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:27:07 -0500 Subject: Old Sun diags questions (4/300 and 3/200) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74ABFA5E-9B78-42BA-8317-853C8EA002BD@neurotica.com> On Nov 10, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > Couple of questions on old Sun machines (well, parts). > > On a Sun 4300 CPU board, I'm getting the > "EEPROM Write-Write-Read-Read test > error PA=0xF2000000 VA=0X00FF8000 Exp=0x0000005a Obs=0x00000000 > (looping)" > error. Looking on the Web and Usenet seems to show that this has > happened a couple of times, with some reference to possibly being > the NVRAM (although the most comprehensive posing set was in > German :(). This seems a bit odd, though - on my other Suns it > calls the NVRAM the NVRAM, so I'm wondering if this is something else. It's just a terminological difference. Most of those machines (if I recall correctly) used 2816 NVRAM chips, which are also correctly referred to as EEPROMs. > J1900 1-2 is connected (4MB SIMM option), so it shouldn't be that > (or is there something else needed to be done- not sure if this is > a 4/330, or if there is any board-level reason that it couldn't use > 4MB SIMMS). They need to be parity SIMMs and they need to be fast enough...once you've set that jumper you should be good to go. Some of the machines (I don't recall which) have more than one jumper for SIMM size, though, so be careful of that. Do you have a Sun FE handbook handy? > Another question- so far I have had two Sun-3 era machines (a > Carrera CPU in a CADDstation and a Sun 3/200 CPU) develop "all > lights on" catatonia. Is this a common problem with Sun-3s? I'm > wondering if I should take the time to trace out the 3/200 board > (preferably with hints on where to look), give it away, or junk it > (I have a working 3/110 system, so I won't be destitute of Sun-3s). Not common at all...I have run literally hundreds of Sun-3 systems and have *never* seen that failure mode. I wonder what's going on there. I'd say repair it if you can; they are starting to dry up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 11 11:32:20 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:32:20 -0800 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) Message-ID: <47373CA4.2070905@bitsavers.org> > For me "classic" computers > are the ones created between 1977 & 1990ish & yes, this includes the early > IBM PC's.Until the PET thread started I was getting seriously bored with the > list, now it's interesting again. Try http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/search.php?do=getdaily which may be more appropriate to your interests. You won't have to worry about people talking about anything other than consumer computers there. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 11 11:35:34 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:35:34 -0800 Subject: Old Sun diags questions (4/300 and 3/200) Message-ID: <47373D66.1050705@bitsavers.org> >> Another question- so far I have had two Sun-3 era machines (a >> Carrera CPU in a CADDstation and a Sun 3/200 CPU) develop "all >> lights on" catatonia. Is this a common problem with Sun-3s? I'm >> wondering if I should take the time to trace out the 3/200 board >> (preferably with hints on where to look), give it away, or junk it >> (I have a working 3/110 system, so I won't be destitute of Sun-3s). >> > Not common at all...I have run literally hundreds of Sun-3 systems > and have *never* seen that failure mode. Check the EPROMS. Clearing the LEDs happens early in the boot process so either the processor is totally hosed or the boot EPROMS have bit rot. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 11 11:34:37 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: Laserdiscs preservation, archival, lifetime In-Reply-To: <4736AF0C.3070703@msm.umr.edu> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4736867F.4050506@internet1.net> <47368CA6.5040402@internet1.net> <4736AF0C.3070703@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <47373D2D.7070003@yahoo.co.uk> jim s wrote: > I have a few weird ones that I'd like to preserve, including some for > some game consoles, but > with their encoding have no idea how to preserve, and also because they > are giving my players fits, may be damaged beyond repair already. I think you'd need to know how the data was stored. The BBC/Acorn/Philips did a pretty good job at documenting the format for the Domesday setup - and I think the various other titles available for that system retained the format, so it should be possible to archive them too. But other systems will be different, and you'll need more specific data on how things are stored in order to make a start I expect. I don't believe there was ever a 'LVROM standard' which everyone stuck to. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 11 11:40:58 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:40:58 -0800 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question In-Reply-To: References: <20071111155537.8451FBA4698@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > From: rcini at optonline.net> > Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the same category in my mind as> the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not requiring mods to my IMSAI.> > Now the thousand-dollar question -- does anyone have a suitable disk image I> could use?> Hi Does the controller have ROM on it? Often the image on the disk has to match with the ROM. Sometimes the ROM only has a minimum boot code and the disk loads the rest of the disk code. Other times, the ROM has all the disk code and the disk is just the rest of CP/M that calls the ROM for disk access. Yet other are mixed with patches in the disk code. The exception is for a controller that does DMA and self boots, like the Digital Systems drives( no ROM in the system ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 11 11:55:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:55:48 -0800 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) In-Reply-To: <1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST>, <1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <4736D1A4.4761.52AF254@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2007 at 9:23, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > There is no bloody way that LIM EMS cards are on-topic for any reason > that they're more than ten years old! And Sun/SGI systems are? No one makes LIM/EMS boards now, nor has in the last 10 years. Few even know what the "LIM" even stands for. My need for one was to equip a system to extract the data for some tapes whose drivers don't work on anything later than a 286. I apologize for asking. Pray tell, how is an SGI Onyx any more "vintage" or "classic" than an Intel Aboveboard? Let's hear all of the owners of Burrroughs B5000s, IBM 7090s, CDC 1604s, NCR Century 100s, RCA Spectra 70s, Univac 1105s and other "real" classics come forward... (the sound of crickets chirping) Cheers, Chuck Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 11 11:53:44 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:53:44 +0000 Subject: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <47364CF0.40503@dunnington.plus.com> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <47364CF0.40503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <473741A8.2020607@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 10/11/2007 22:14, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 10 Nov 2007 at 15:04, Jay West wrote: >>> Someone wrote.... >>>> Actually laserdiscs certainly are >>> That's a stretch... I'm not buying it :) > > They were commonly used for computer interactive video especially for > CAI systems. A company I worked for in the mid-to-late 80s installed > hundreds of PC-based systems with Pioneer LV players, one at every main > Jaguar dealership, and I was one of the repair staff for the Pioneer kit. It's surprising how popular interactive video was at one stage. Back in the day, Microvitec even offered a disc cutting service, although they could only do single-sided discs. They could offer 24-hour turnaround, and on the 7-day service the cost was 395 pounds for acrylic discs and 595 for glass. I don't think they could handle binary data (i.e. LVROMs) as such though. Which raises the question of what the definition of LVROM is - most interactive video termed as LVROM that I've come across is pure video data under computer control, i.e. there's no binary program data stored on the discs too (as there is with Domesday, and I believe with a few arcade systems) >> Do any of the cclist-ers in the UK still have any LV-ROMs and >> hardware? I'd be willing to wager that Tony does. :) > > I have a set of the LV-ROMs. Look after 'em... like I said, I've seen a few where they're starting to decay. (I don't think anything can be done to halt the process, but I can see a time when there are more working Domesday setups around than there are working sets of the media) Thankfully I've not heard of problems with the lasers in the Philips LVROM players yet (earlier Philips non-LVROM players seem prone to laser-death) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 11 12:03:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:03:07 +0000 Subject: HP2116 inventory In-Reply-To: <200711110337.TAA12248@magellan.magic.com> References: <200711110337.TAA12248@magellan.magic.com> Message-ID: <473743DB.50008@yahoo.co.uk> James A. Markevitch wrote: > Jules, > >> We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store' >> and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the >> panels earlier. > > It appears that many of the boards, especially in the 2116C, have just > been placed into arbitrary slots. Yep - given how many of them are loose, that's highly likely (and particularly given that there were three lumps of core just parked in the front of one case). Unfortunately I ran out of time to pull the rear panels off the machines to see if there was anything in there - we'd stood around and speculated that there might be (particularly as there didn't seem anywhere obvious to bolt the core in the front half of the cabinets). > You will also need to double-check some of the part numbers on the boards > to be sure that the 2116B and 2116C boards have not been put into the > wrong chassis. For example, it may be that some of the boards in the > 2116B are 2116C boards and vice versa. I'm sure it's quite a mess. I'm quite relived that there are any boards in there to be honest - I had a horrible feeling we were going to open the cases and just find empty backplanes. > I can send you a more complete list of which boards belong in which > slots, but that will be just part of the story, in order to get these > machines running. Don't worry about it - I just thought I'd take the time to see what (if any!) boards were in there whilst I have the chance, and then just throw it out onto the mailing list to see what people thought. I expect it'll be quite some time before anyone has any time to actually try to get anything up and running - way too many other projects in the way first! :-) > Overall, it looks like you have close to a complete 2116C and 2116B, > though you are missing the I/O boards that would have been used > in a dual processor system. It's possible they're still in storage and just not inside the machines for some reason. We've got non-inventoried HP stuff spread across three different rooms, and I know there are some boxes of boards in one of the rooms. Sadly I've never come across the documentation for them, so it's nice to hear there's docs out there still. cheers! Jules From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 11 12:21:42 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:21:42 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Both the Morrow and the CompuPro boards have boot roms on them. I took a quick look at the code and it looks like bootstrap loader more than a BIOS. But, I really need to look at the code more closely. On 11/11/07 12:40 PM, "dwight elvey" wrote: > >> From: rcini at optonline.net> > Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the >> same category in my mind as> the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not >> requiring mods to my IMSAI.> > Now the thousand-dollar question -- does >> anyone have a suitable disk image I> could use?> > Hi > Does the controller have ROM on it? Often the image > on the disk has to match with the ROM. Sometimes > the ROM only has a minimum boot code and the disk > loads the rest of the disk code. Other times, the ROM > has all the disk code and the disk is just the rest of > CP/M that calls the ROM for disk access. Yet other > are mixed with patches in the disk code. > The exception is for a controller that does DMA and > self boots, like the Digital Systems drives( no ROM in > the system ). > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble > challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 11 12:37:55 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:37:55 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <4735B746.32055.DBFEDF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net>, <47358EE0.32722.3E2F74@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711101524.39967.rtellason@verizon.net> <4735B746.32055.DBFEDF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com ---snip---> > Could even be XORing the contents with a LFSR. Hard to say without > seeing it. > Hi Of course, a CRC is just a special polynomial LFSR that has a large field of zeros so that it cna be used for burst correction. It seems the code is CRC. The code may just do a bit at a time or may have a table lookup to do a byte at a time. I've even seen nibble at a time. If it were doing a real CRC, one could even locate a burst of bit errors and fix the EPROM if one knew the polynomial used. To my knowledge, I don't know if any of the assemblers had a CRC calculator built in. The final check number was most likely calculated after the assembly and just added to the code. If in the listing, this may have been a second pass through the assembler. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 11 12:56:48 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:56:48 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I actually just dumped the 2708 EPROM on the Morrow board and the code bears absolutely NO resemblance to the code in the instruction manual. It doesn't even appear to do much I/O. I wonder if it's suffering from bit rot? Does anyone have a dump of their EPROM that they can send me for comparison purposes? On 11/11/07 12:40 PM, "dwight elvey" wrote: > >> From: rcini at optonline.net> > Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the >> same category in my mind as> the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not >> requiring mods to my IMSAI.> > Now the thousand-dollar question -- does >> anyone have a suitable disk image I> could use?> > Hi > Does the controller have ROM on it? Often the image > on the disk has to match with the ROM. Sometimes > the ROM only has a minimum boot code and the disk > loads the rest of the disk code. Other times, the ROM > has all the disk code and the disk is just the rest of > CP/M that calls the ROM for disk access. Yet other > are mixed with patches in the disk code. > The exception is for a controller that does DMA and > self boots, like the Digital Systems drives( no ROM in > the system ). > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble > challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 11 13:11:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:11:27 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: References: <200711101243.59580.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4735B746.32055.DBFEDF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4736E35F.9310.57032FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2007 at 10:37, dwight elvey wrote: > To my knowledge, I don't know if any of the assemblers had > a CRC calculator built in. The final check number was most > likely calculated after the assembly and just added to the code. > If in the listing, this may have been a second pass through > the assembler. MAC certainly didn't have one. I assume that the last 2 bytes of the ROM were the zero-CRC-makers. The "quick and dirty way" to get a zero sum is to compuate the CRC for the first n-2 bytes of the size n ROM, then iterate through the 65536 possible 16-bit combinations of the "corrector" stopping when a zero CRC is hit. It shouldn't take long, particularly if you're using an emulator on a modern PC. You could also work out the reverse polynomial, but that sounds like too much work for what probably will amount to a one-off deal. Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 11 13:14:07 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:14:07 -0600 Subject: CD Question Message-ID: <009c01c82497$0a252fd0$17406b43@66067007> Anyone on the list have IBM 1401, A User's Manual music CD? I ordered it last week but it has not come yet. If you have it what do think about it? John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 11 13:32:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:32:34 +0000 Subject: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <47364CF0.40503@dunnington.plus.com> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <47364CF0.40503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <473758D2.4010901@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 10/11/2007 22:14, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 10 Nov 2007 at 15:04, Jay West wrote: >>> Someone wrote.... >>>> Actually laserdiscs certainly are >>> That's a stretch... I'm not buying it :) > > They were commonly used for computer interactive video especially for > CAI systems. A company I worked for in the mid-to-late 80s installed > hundreds of PC-based systems with Pioneer LV players, one at every main > Jaguar dealership, and I was one of the repair staff for the Pioneer kit. A postscript... was that The Soft Option? You got me digging through some of my Domesday-related scans, and I notice a flyer of theirs list Jaguar (on behalf of the National Computing Centre) as one of their major clients, using the Intaview videodisc workstation... (it only lists various Philips and Sony players as supported, however, but does say 'others on request') cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 13:02:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:02:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <1194740793.6670.9.camel@elric.inet> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Nov 11, 7 00:26:33 am Message-ID: > > Do you know what? I think I've finally reached my "It's off-topic" > saturation point. Not the amount of off-topic content, but the amount > of moaning about things being off-topic. I'm gettign that way too... > > I'm pretty much infinitely more interested in Laserdisc players than I > am on bloody memory cards for PCs. We've had a lengthy spiel about what > kind of ISA card you can use to bring a PC-XT up to 640k, with barely a > murmur about how on- or off-topic it might be. Now we get something > that's vaguely interesting and not mass-market commodity PC bits, and > it's somehow off-topic? I guess I'm a bit like you here. I like oddball technology. When it comes to computers, I like things like a calculator with no ALU or even an adder. A calculator with a bit-serial CPU. A soft-microcoded workstation processor. A 32016-based workstation with a bit-serial gtraphics processor that was acvtually slower than doing the operations on the 32016. A home computer with both a Z80 and a 6809 inside. That sort of thing. And to go off-topic, my favourite cars are Citroens. I still like V2000 video recorders (dynamic track following :-)). I still use film cameras, I collect the oddballs, like SLRs where the mirror forms part of the shutter, like the bug-turned-into-a-feature Peestor reflex shutter (darn it, my cat is called Pentina :-)). I love the old HP test instruments, like a frequency counter that has a BCD counter, latch and display driver built from 8 transistors (and no ICs). So yes, laserdisk players are _much_ more interesting to me than PCs... The thing is, though, this is Jay's list, and he gets to say what goes on here. And by the accepted rules of this list, a PC/XT is a classic computer (yes, I have difficulty with that too). So add-ons for it are on-topic, whereas much fo what you and I (and apparently other list members) are interested in is not. -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 11 13:48:29 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:48:29 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47375C8D.6050706@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> Do you know what? I think I've finally reached my "It's off-topic" >> saturation point. Not the amount of off-topic content, but the amount >> of moaning about things being off-topic. > > I guess I'm a bit like you here. I like oddball technology. We all do, which is why we're here. I too am weary of wondering if my reply is acceptable or not... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 11 13:52:43 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:52:43 -0800 Subject: Data I/O 212 programmer available In-Reply-To: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> Message-ID: <47375D8B.4080103@sbcglobal.net> I have a Data I/O model 212 programmer with some memory cards, manuals and cables. If anyone wants it, it free, just pay shipping. Total weight is near 25 pounds with the manuals. Bob Santa Cruz, CA 95060 From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 11 13:54:31 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:54:31 -0600 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> , <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <47375DF7.7080706@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > There is no bloody way that LIM EMS cards are on-topic for any reason > that they're more than ten years old! Public Service Announcement: The entire world of classic computer collectors/restorers/enthusiasts is *not* made up of DEC-heads. Other companies existed; other niches exist. It's a big hobby out there. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 11 13:57:02 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:57:02 -0800 Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> Message-ID: <47375E8E.1020909@sbcglobal.net> I have 6 or 7 boxes full of older Apple manuals, software, docs etc. for the older MACs. I don't want to spend time sorting through it, but am hoping someone wants it, otherwise, to the recyclers it goes. There is at least one, probably two or three of the Apple 2e cards for the Mac in there. If I remember correctly, they are new in sealed boxes. Any interest? Free of course, I can bring them to the San Jose area if needed. Bob Santa Cruz, CA 95060 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 11 14:17:42 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:17:42 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) References: Message-ID: <019101c8249f$eade5b20$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Gordon wrote... >> Do you know what? I think I've finally reached my "It's off-topic" >> saturation point. To which Tony replied.... > I'm gettign that way too... and > I guess I'm a bit like you here. I like oddball technology. When it comes > to computers, I like things like a calculator with no ALU or even an > adder. A calculator with a bit-serial CPU. A soft-microcoded workstation > processor. A 32016-based workstation with a bit-serial gtraphics > processor that was acvtually slower than doing the operations on the > 32016. A home computer with both a Z80 and a 6809 inside. That sort of > thing. And every one of those things you mention is on-topic, always has been, and was never questioned. So what's the beef. > The thing is, though, this is Jay's list, and he gets to say what goes on > here. And by the accepted rules of this list, a PC/XT is a classic > computer (yes, I have difficulty with that too). I try to do so by building consensus and almost always going with what the majority wants. However, it occasionally seems that a very vocal minority isn't happy unless everything is 100% the way they want. Screw that, I'm tired of trying to please the last bit under the tail of the bell curve. And for the record, I'm not a big fan of PC/XT anything being on topic. However, I don't always go with what *I* think is "right". It's called trying to get along. Perhaps the vocal minority should attempt the same. > So add-ons for it are on-topic, whereas much fo what you and I (and > apparently other list > members) are interested in is not. Given that all the above stuff you listed is on-topic I guess I don't see the problem. Some of the stuff we have in common (like cars, cameras, etc) isn't on-topic. There's other lists for that. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 11 14:36:58 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:36:58 -0600 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) References: <47375C8D.6050706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <019a01c824a2$9b903400$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Jim wrote.... > We all do, which is why we're here. I too am weary of wondering if my > reply is acceptable or not... This is a list for classic computing. It is not a list for all technology discussion from the 80's. If you actually get weary trying to determine the difference between those two.... Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 11 14:39:46 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:39:46 -0600 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> , <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST><1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> <47375DF7.7080706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <019f01c824a2$fff81750$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Jim wrote... > Public Service Announcement: The entire world of classic computer > collectors/restorers/enthusiasts is *not* made up of DEC-heads. Other > companies existed; other niches exist. It's a big hobby out there. Someone take a picture. Jim and I are in complete agreement on something ;) Yes, it's a big hobby and I firmly believe that classiccmp can serve the needs of all the (occasionally cliquey) members. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 11 14:43:08 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:43:08 -0600 Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <47375E8E.1020909@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <01a401c824a3$7833f7c0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Bob's mainly a mini collector. But he's posting about apple stuff? OMG! No Way! It's just not possible for someone to be interested in both is it? I guess the list is going to be all micro talk now. Yeah, that's childish sarcasm on my part. Jay From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 11 09:51:24 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:51:24 +0000 Subject: Oddball hard drive failure... In-Reply-To: References: <4734322E.9000405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6buhm2$4qoc3p@toip7.srvr.bell.ca> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Exactly the same with my drive. Cleaning the top magnet wasn't so bad as > > I could take it to the sink to do it and really work at it, but I > > couldn't do much for the lower one - and obviously removing the whole > > head assembly is a bad idea ;) Many hard drives allows you to swing the bottom magnet out without moving the arm like Fujistu, Conner design of chassis. For ones you need some kind of tool to gently ramp heads off the platters and unbolted. Somewhat OT but on topic about crumbling rare earth magnets: While on the bursting rare earth magnets, I have got a set (under 3 years old) with a color wheel one of magnetic bearing suspension went powdery (burst the plated protective shell) and gummed up the works rendering the DLP's color wheel useless (siezed). Costs between 150-180 for a colorwheel and labor not included. OUCH! Makers of DLP sets went to ceramic air bearing instead for color wheels. And can be installed in older ones and change a jumper and a twreak to the color wheel index timing in some makes. Color wheels is is 6 to 7 segments made of seperate pieces of thin optical glass and plated with different colors (two sets of red, green and blue usually) clamped to the aluminum/brass hub. Had to be precise made and balanced to archive 9,000+ rpm and make little noise as possible. Cheers, Wizard From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 14:54:24 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:54:24 -0600 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <1194492732.5756.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20071106220239.Y88JM.182021.root@fepweb13> <47313239.7060800@jetnet.ab.ca> <4732131A.4090209@philpem.me.uk> <47322303.5060109@jetnet.ab.ca> <47322C63.7030403@pacbell.net> <1194492732.5756.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> Here are my pics from VCF: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/sets/72157603093681411/ Not much special there. Will have my video tour of the eshibit hall up sometime this week, time permitting :) -- jht From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 11 14:55:29 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:55:29 -0600 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs In-Reply-To: <019f01c824a2$fff81750$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <898108.46319.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> , <00db01c823dd$478bd4b0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> <4735BCB7.1806.F14054@cclist.sydex.com> <006101c82415$ec065410$6b00a8c0@JWEST><1194772997.6670.17.camel@elric.inet> <47375DF7.7080706@oldskool.org> <019f01c824a2$fff81750$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <47376C41.5050801@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote... >> Public Service Announcement: The entire world of classic computer >> collectors/restorers/enthusiasts is *not* made up of DEC-heads. Other >> companies existed; other niches exist. It's a big hobby out there. > > Someone take a picture. Jim and I are in complete agreement on something ;) Holy mackerel :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 14:59:24 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:59:24 -0600 Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: <01a401c824a3$7833f7c0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <47375E8E.1020909@sbcglobal.net> <01a401c824a3$7833f7c0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <51ea77730711111259q487a3ea3o2db916b63cac9056@mail.gmail.com> On 11/11/07, Jay West wrote: > Bob's mainly a mini collector. But he's posting about apple stuff? OMG! No > Way! It's just not possible for someone to be interested in both is it? I > guess the list is going to be all micro talk now. Nah, I saw Bob's secret plans...he's just using Mac3270 cards as mainframe terminals. The Mac is merely a host to a superior parasitic lifeform :) Those Apple // cards, are they the actual 100% emulation of the //e or //c under old PDS Macs? Was there a SCSI 5.25" drive for Macs that would read the Apple // disks? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 11 15:03:17 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:03:17 -0500 Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <47375E8E.1020909@sbcglobal.net> <01a401c824a3$7833f7c0$6b00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <005f01c824a6$48a73d70$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. > Bob's mainly a mini collector. But he's posting about apple stuff? OMG! No > Way! It's just not possible for someone to be interested in both is it? I > guess the list is going to be all micro talk now. > > Yeah, that's childish sarcasm on my part. > > Jay > I am sure plenty of people here ended up snagging a whole lot only to find some things from different systems they did not need inside. I stay away from all or nothing lots because I don't want to be disposing of all kind of junk I don't like just to get a couple items I do want. While the old Mac stuff is what I like to collect, CA is a bit far from OH for a pickup. Hoping to dig up a local Mac collector to snag the lot before it ends up junked. TZ From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sun Nov 11 15:33:35 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:33:35 -0500 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? In-Reply-To: <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4737752F.9050605@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have a 280, the operator's Manual, acceptance test procedure, Info on a firmware update, the original device list, user notes from 12/9/85, a field bulletin and a couple of wall charts. joe heck Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 11, 2007, at 12:33 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I picked up a Data I/O 280 programmer this weekend, without manuals >> or software. According to Data I/O's webpage, it's no longer >> supported at all, so they have nothing available for download/ >> purchase/whatever. Anyone have software/manuals/anything for this >> thing? > > > I sold a 280 with documentation on eBay about a year ago...that's as > close as I can get. :-( > > I don't recall it having been difficult to use. > > -Dave > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 11 15:37:06 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:37:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for the links to the pics. The awesome differential engine mechanical computer looks as if it has been made out of (or atleast held together with) meccano. Am I right? I played with my dads meccano set when I was a kid, but didn't really build much. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Jason T wrote: Here are my pics from VCF: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/sets/72157603093681411/ Not much special there. Will have my video tour of the eshibit hall up sometime this week, time permitting :) -- jht From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 11 15:44:10 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:44:10 -0500 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) Message-ID: <01C82489.B85421A0@MSE_D03> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:32:20 -0800 From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <47373CA4.2070905 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > For me "classic" computers > > are the ones created between 1977 & 1990ish & yes, this includes the early > > IBM PC's.Until the PET thread started I was getting seriously bored with the > > list, now it's interesting again. >Try http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/search.php?do=getdaily >which may be more appropriate to your interests. >You won't have to worry about people talking about anything other than consumer >computers there. ---------------- A different population from this list to be sure, broadly speaking, but nevertheless CP/M, DEC, Cromemco, IMSAI etc. are discussed there as well as WIN3.1, and since it's a forum format you can pick & choose your interest. And I agree with the OP that, certainly from a broad historical perspective of computers, old IBM PCs, PETs etc. are just as important and 'classic' in their respective segments as Altairs, IMSAIs and even DECs, regardless of one's personal bias. m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 11 16:33:20 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:33:20 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question Message-ID: <01C82489.B9B49C00@MSE_D03> -------------Original Messages: Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:23:30 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the same category in my mind as the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not requiring mods to my IMSAI. Now the thousand-dollar question -- does anyone have a suitable disk image I could use? On 11/11/07 10:55 AM, "Tim Shoppa" wrote: > "Richard A. Cini" wrote: >> Oh, I also just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This >> model has only a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so >> I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller. > > Well, originally intended for 8" drives, but with a suitable adapter > cable glue and a slightly modified BIOS it'll do 5.25" and 3.5" drives. > > Tim. Rich ----------Reply: I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image (if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. Worth a try in any case. m From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 15:44:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:44:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <019101c8249f$eade5b20$6b00a8c0@JWEST> from "Jay West" at Nov 11, 7 02:17:42 pm Message-ID: > To which Tony replied.... > > I'm gettign that way too... > and > > I guess I'm a bit like you here. I like oddball technology. When it comes > > to computers, I like things like a calculator with no ALU or even an > > adder. A calculator with a bit-serial CPU. A soft-microcoded workstation > > processor. A 32016-based workstation with a bit-serial gtraphics > > processor that was acvtually slower than doing the operations on the > > 32016. A home computer with both a Z80 and a 6809 inside. That sort of > > thing. > And every one of those things you mention is on-topic, always has been, and > was never questioned. So what's the beef. You misunderstood me. I am not a 'normal' computer collector, if such a thing even exists. For one thing I am primarily interested in the hardware design (if I can get a machine running properly so that it boots the normal OS, or runs the ROM software, or..., then I tend to lose interest in it). I am interested in the electronics/engineering aspects, the fact that the devices happen to be programmable computers is secondary to this. This has several implications. The first, which I think is on-topic, is that I am equally interested in peripherals as CPUs. I want to run my PDP11 with RK05s nad RK07s and RL02s, and... Not an IDE drive pretending to be the above. The design of the servo system in an RK07 is every bit as interesting to me as the processor. Another is that I am equally interested in some off-topic stuff. Like cameras, cars, clocks, ... Yes, I know it's off-topic, and I know I tend to drift twards it. I am just explianing why I do. > Given that all the above stuff you listed is on-topic I guess I don't see > the problem. Some of the stuff we have in common (like cars, cameras, etc) > isn't on-topic. There's other lists for that. Actually, I am not sure there are, or at least I've not found them. There are lists for the 'stamp collector' type of collectors who can't understand why you'd ever _use_ the item in question, and less still why you'd take it apart. There are lists for repairers, which seem to concentrate on more mainstream stuff, and where anything oddball is considered to be 'unreliable' and 'not worth bothering with'. I've yet to find a list that welcomes the eccentric enthusiast. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 16:01:18 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:01:18 -0600 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730711111401k6d976bfdne41ada001b817dee@mail.gmail.com> On 11/11/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > The awesome differential engine mechanical computer looks as if it has been made out of (or atleast held together with) meccano. Am I right? I played with my dads meccano set when I was a kid, but didn't really build much. I had to look up "Meccano," but I think it is that or Erector materials, which must have been quite similar. The oracle of Wiki tells us that Meccano bought the Erector trademark around 1990, so I guess they are the same thing now. Ah, here's his page. Meccano it is: http://meccano.us/differential_analyzers/robinson_da/index.html From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Nov 11 16:03:22 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:03:22 -0500 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071111220322.54F7CBA466B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I am not a 'normal' computer collector, if such a thing even exists. For > one thing I am primarily interested in the hardware design (if I can get > a machine running properly so that it boots the normal OS, or runs the > ROM software, or..., then I tend to lose interest in it). I am interested > in the electronics/engineering aspects, the fact that the devices happen > to be programmable computers is secondary to this. > > This has several implications. The first, which I think is on-topic, is > that I am equally interested in peripherals as CPUs. I want to run my > PDP11 with RK05s nad RK07s and RL02s, and... Not an IDE drive pretending > to be the above. The design of the servo system in an RK07 is every bit > as interesting to me as the processor. And I'm also interested in peripheral systems... but not so much for the intracicies of the hardware (although I do find that interesting). Instead, I try to emphasize the peripherals because: 1. Too many CPU's get rescued sans peripherals. Then someone gets to it and asks "well, now what?". Emphasize the importance of the peripherals to actually booting an OS or running an interesting application and maybe the result will be not peripheral-less CPU's but complete systems. 2. Peripherals are important for media recovery of OS's, applications, and if we're really lucky, sources. 3. With media recovery and CPU and access to a peripheral, all the basic prerequisites of writing an emulator are available. Many (most?) peripherals are not well documented enough to allow emulation of the peripheral without at least some experimentation. Tim. From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Nov 11 16:03:31 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:03:31 +0000 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <767e269bd623db044b6a6f91ce2df3a4@mac.com> > I am interested > in the electronics/engineering aspects, the fact that the devices > happen > to be programmable computers is secondary to this. > as the processor. > > Another is that I am equally interested in some off-topic stuff. Like > cameras, cars, clocks, ... Yes, I know it's off-topic, and I know I > tend > to drift twards it. I am just explianing why I do. > Sounds familiar.. My garage is full of old micros, old cameras, old Bang & Olufsen and an old Bristol car.. roger From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 16:18:45 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:18:45 -0600 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? Message-ID: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> So I like early speech synthesis. I like DEC stuff. I've got a couple forms of the DECTalk boxes (the portable, the ISA card.) I'd like the DTC-01 unit, the one that sort of looks like a VX2000 terminal. They come up on ebay every other week or so and end up selling for well over $100. Who's buying these things? Are they popular with collectors? Or are they still being used in the disability care industry? From grant at stockly.com Sun Nov 11 16:21:32 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:21:32 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JR7005G3MMO3860@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JR7005G3MMO3860@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JRD00AJB4V3VQ80@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Tarbell Update > >> > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing > >> > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. > >>(Snip) > >> > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods > >> > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! I can't speak for the exact combination of the Tarbell, but the system has been running all day long with: -16k static card -8k static card -4k static card -2SIO -1k ROM -8k Byte saver -Tarbell FD It has been running solid a 4K ROM monitor from Dave Dunfield. Floppy interface still doesn't work on either card, and these cards were tested by someone else on an IMSAI with an Altair CPU card. >Some Z80 cards complicate the issue. They have diffent timing and at 4mhz >some ram MAY NOT be fast enough. Either slow the z80 to 2mhz or more wait >states from ram. The card I have has a switch for 2MHz. The tarbell with the reduced clock speed will not work at anything higher like you suggested. I have confirmed (from the person who shipped me the tarbell cards) that the tarbell card with a reduced clock speed works normally with a Z80 at 2MHz. I attached a logic analyzer to the drive and watched all of the signals. Every thing looks normal to me. I hooked it to a 5.25" drive and then to a 3.5" drive. The drives are sending everything that they should. >Shows how rough the bus timing and noise can be. Is that a one piece >backplane of the two sided variety or the one of the earlier Altair >4 slot chains or single sided backplane? The reason is the earlier 2x4 slot motherboards, but all of the wires are the same length (there was a tip on that to reduce noise) I'm going to let the thing heat soak and then check the bus with an oscilloscope and the CPU clock. You know, I'm worried that the reliability issues aren't related to the Altair, but to a heavily modified tarbell card trying to write a Tandon SSSD 5.25" onto a 3.5" disk??? Would any of you like to see the data coming out of the disk drive? I can upload the logic analyzer data to my web site... I will never be happy until I find the problem. I'd like to think that with all of the information we have that I can make the Altair as reliable as any other S-100 system. I have collected a lot of errata and have applied it all to my system... That's why I won't give up with this setup. : ) Thanks, Grant From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 11 16:32:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:32:59 -0800 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: <20071111220322.54F7CBA466B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: , <20071111220322.54F7CBA466B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4737129B.28469.628B3B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2007 at 17:03, Tim Shoppa wrote: > And I'm also interested in peripheral systems... but not so much for > the intracicies of the hardware (although I do find that interesting). Media is my interest. I can emulate pretty much any of the old systems, but what's on the media is irreplaceable. How many times does an old computer pop up with nothing to run on it. By extension, I'm interested in old word processing systems, laboratory equipment, process control gear as well as CNC the same reason--to get at the information that makes 'em tick. Since most of my work is at a very low level, primitive operating systems such as MS-DOS and CP/M are part of my interest. There's nothing wrong with DEC equipment. I was in charge of an VAX 11/750 running some flavor of BSD for a few years during the 80's. The guy who sold us the system swore that it would support bisync (HASP) over a leased 9600 bps line--and we purchased the system based on that. That was a lesson. We never could get the VAX to to do the job, so we hooked up a 5150 with an add-on hard disk expansion cabinet (must have been 1983-84) and ran a bisync package on that and moved the data to and from the VAX via an RS232 serial hookup. My experience with DEC was not entirely pleasurable and the people who were doing the third-party support work for BSD were clueless. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 11 16:35:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:35:31 -0800 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2007 at 16:18, Jason T wrote: > So I like early speech synthesis. I like DEC stuff. I've got a > couple forms of the DECTalk boxes (the portable, the ISA card.) I'd > like the DTC-01 unit, the one that sort of looks like a VX2000 > terminal. They come up on ebay every other week or so and end up > selling for well over $100. Do you have the S100 Computalker? The demo tape for that thing cracked me up. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Nov 11 16:35:42 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:35:42 +0000 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/07 22:18, "Jason T" wrote: > So I like early speech synthesis. I like DEC stuff. I've got a > couple forms of the DECTalk boxes (the portable, the ISA card.) I'd > like the DTC-01 unit, the one that sort of looks like a VX2000 > terminal. They come up on ebay every other week or so and end up > selling for well over $100. > > Who's buying these things? Are they popular with collectors? Or are > they still being used in the disability care industry? I used to do field service for the DEC stuff at Alcan in the UK, they were a big DECtalk user so maybe they still are? I wouldn't mind one either but I'm just biding my time and assuming one is going to fall out of the sky in front of me :) Also, didn't the DTC-01 use the same case as the VT240, DECmux, DEREP and DEREN? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 11 16:39:26 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:39:26 -0800 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:18 PM -0600 11/11/07, Jason T wrote: >So I like early speech synthesis. I like DEC stuff. I've got a >couple forms of the DECTalk boxes (the portable, the ISA card.) I'd >like the DTC-01 unit, the one that sort of looks like a VX2000 >terminal. They come up on ebay every other week or so and end up >selling for well over $100. > >Who's buying these things? Are they popular with collectors? Or are >they still being used in the disability care industry? I suspect they're being purchased by dealers. I'd like one, but haven't been willing to shell out the $$$'s. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Nov 11 16:47:43 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:47:43 +0100 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:35:42 +0000> From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Who keeps buying DECTalks?> > On 11/11/07 22:18, "Jason T" wrote:> > > So I like early speech synthesis. I like DEC stuff. I've got a> > couple forms of the DECTalk boxes (the portable, the ISA card.) I'd> > like the DTC-01 unit, the one that sort of looks like a VX2000> > terminal. They come up on ebay every other week or so and end up> > selling for well over $100.> > > > Who's buying these things? Are they popular with collectors? Or are> > they still being used in the disability care industry?> > I used to do field service for the DEC stuff at Alcan in the UK, they were a> big DECtalk user so maybe they still are? I wouldn't mind one either but I'm> just biding my time and assuming one is going to fall out of the sky in> front of me :)> > Also, didn't the DTC-01 use the same case as the VT240, DECmux, DEREP and> DEREN?> > -- > Adrian/Witchy> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer> collection? Yes, the DTC-01 has the same case as the VT240 ... I have both of them. And yes, the DTC-01 was/is popular. I remember I bought my DTC-01 also on eBay a few years ago for $150. That seemed fair to me. The shipping cost from the US to The Netherland bit me. Even worse, Customs picked my parcel out of all the stuff, and I had to pay taxes. Not over the $150, but I also had to pay taxes over the shipping cost! The bastards! Henk. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 16:49:12 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:49:12 -0600 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730711111449h662ede0dv83327685c6a1a634@mail.gmail.com> On 11/11/07, Adrian Graham wrote: > Also, didn't the DTC-01 use the same case as the VT240, DECmux, DEREP and > DEREN? Yeah, on second look I think it's the same case at the VT240 (and probably that other stuff, too.) From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 16:49:45 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:49:45 -0600 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730711111449ha66514albb64abbb73c3b746@mail.gmail.com> On 11/11/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I suspect they're being purchased by dealers. I'd like one, but > haven't been willing to shell out the $$$'s. Grrr, dealers. Yep there are quite a few in the for-sale section of ebay for $500 and up. Uh, no thanks. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 16:51:30 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:51:30 -0500 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I suspect they're being purchased by dealers. I'd like one, but > haven't been willing to shell out the $$$'s. Dealers do not buy many things on Ebay - a general rule of thumb. It does not make much sense for dealer to pay top dollar for stuff. Lets see - 1) its DEC 1) its old 1) its cool. Collector demand? Nahhhh.... -- Will From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 11 16:58:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:58:31 +0000 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111401k6d976bfdne41ada001b817dee@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <51ea77730711111401k6d976bfdne41ada001b817dee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47378917.7000201@yahoo.co.uk> Jason T wrote: > On 11/11/07, Andrew Burton wrote: >> The awesome differential engine mechanical computer looks as if it has >> been made out of (or atleast held together with) meccano. Am I right? I >> played with my dads meccano set when I was a kid, but didn't really build >> much. > > The oracle of Wiki tells us that Meccano bought the Erector trademark > around 1990, so I guess they are the same thing now. Hmm, I thought the company who had the rights had recently (within the last year) folded, and so the future was uncertain. Maybe that was just the UK distributors... Back on topic... I recently met up with some of the folks who run the Whipple Museum of the History of Science, based at Cambridge uni (UK), and ended up spending an age looking through some of their computing-related artifacts. Amongst the photos was quite a pile of ones of a Meccano differential analyser built at the university in the '30s and credited to John Lennard-Jones (under whom Maurice Wilkes was a researcher). All really fascinating stuff - not only because of the fact that it was built, but because of the material used :-) Didn't Manchester uni also have one built from Meccano? I think I've heard of one before built there - not sure what year it was, though. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 11 17:04:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:04:19 +0000 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47378A73.8000106@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> I suspect they're being purchased by dealers. I'd like one, but >> haven't been willing to shell out the $$$'s. > > Dealers do not buy many things on Ebay - a general rule of thumb. It > does not make much sense for dealer to pay top dollar for stuff. > > Lets see - 1) its DEC 1) its old 1) its cool. Collector demand? Nahhhh.... Someone I met up with recently was getting annoyed because the same person was buying the same stuff over and over again on Ebay, often for high prices - presumably their plan is to dry the market up completely and then demand huge sums of money for the parts that they have. If the DECtalks are largely going to the same person, maybe a similar thing is happening there... Some people have disturbingly deep pockets :-( From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 17:11:04 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:11:04 -0600 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> On 11/11/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do you have the S100 Computalker? The demo tape for that thing > cracked me up. I do not. The only other speech box I've got (aside from those that went with game systems like the Intellivision or computers like the TI99/4a) is a non-op Votrax Type'n'Talk, which I remember fondly from old magazines in my C64 days. Has anyone put the audio file online of the demo tape? From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 11 18:32:38 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:32:38 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question In-Reply-To: <01C82489.B9B49C00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: Yes, I understand the 5-for-8 substitution. One of the challenges I'm having is finding a suitable disk image to try. If I get an 8" image I plan on jamming it onto a 5.25" HD disk and giving that a whirl. I made the "8"-only" distinction because one of the boards I have (the Versafloppy) has both connectors. It just saves a little time in not having to make a cable. On 11/11/07 5:33 PM, "M H Stein" wrote: > -------------Original Messages: > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:23:30 -0500 > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > > Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the same category in my mind as > the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not requiring mods to my IMSAI. > > Now the thousand-dollar question -- does anyone have a suitable disk image I > could use? > > > On 11/11/07 10:55 AM, "Tim Shoppa" > wrote: > >> "Richard A. Cini" wrote: >>> Oh, I also just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This >>> model has only a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so >>> I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller. >> >> Well, originally intended for 8" drives, but with a suitable adapter >> cable glue and a slightly modified BIOS it'll do 5.25" and 3.5" drives. >> >> Tim. > > Rich > > ----------Reply: > > I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a > relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally > well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image > (if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not > even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, > although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. > > Worth a try in any case. > > m > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 11 18:47:04 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:47:04 -0800 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:51 PM -0500 11/11/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > I suspect they're being purchased by dealers. I'd like one, but >> haven't been willing to shell out the $$$'s. > >Dealers do not buy many things on Ebay - a general rule of thumb. It >does not make much sense for dealer to pay top dollar for stuff. > >Lets see - 1) its DEC 1) its old 1) its cool. Collector demand? Nahhhh.... Trust me, there are several dealers that regularly buy up stuff on eBay. A couple of them are even on this list, though they typically keep a very low profile. Their are quite a few items that make sense for dealers to buy when they show up on eBay. Basically *any* DS10 (not DS10L) will have at least a bid on it by a dealer. Certain Q-Bus or Unibus cards are the same way. Undesirable systems such as XP1000's will be targeted by dealers if they have a desirable enough card in them. Where you'll always loose out against a dealer is if he has a customer that needs a specific item (or multiples of that item) that is up on eBay. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 11 19:16:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:16:04 -0800 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com>, <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <473738D4.27622.6BE0235@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2007 at 17:11, Jason T wrote: > Has anyone put the audio file online of the demo tape? Found it: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker.htm Have fun! Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 11 20:49:10 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:49:10 -0600 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <473738D4.27622.6BE0235@cclist.sydex.com> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com>, <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> <473738D4.27622.6BE0235@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Nov 2007 at 17:11, Jason T wrote: > >> Has anyone put the audio file online of the demo tape? > > Found it: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker.htm I was going to ask you why it cracked you up until I heard the http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker4-text2speech.wav example -- holy crud, I couldn't understand a single word! The digitized examples (Kennedy, etc.) weren't that much better either... I wonder, with modern computers making the FFT analysis, could the computalker produce intelligible output? I can only assume that the original analysis was limited by the speed of its day. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 11 20:55:33 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:55:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 Message-ID: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> Admittedly, I was mulling over it too. This one is not only a real 65, it's apparently in mostly working order (as much as any of the extant 65s are). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230190927853 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Burglar alarms: For the man who has everything! ---------------------------- From technobug at comcast.net Sun Nov 11 21:39:33 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:39:33 -0700 Subject: Systems Industries Model 9400 Disc Controller In-Reply-To: <200711112208.lABM8Cbl077727@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711112208.lABM8Cbl077727@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <70742E02-573D-4988-964A-086EE06B9DBC@comcast.net> A friend's 11/70 has gone through the last of his SI 9400 disk controller spares and he has tasked me with the repair task. Does anyone have documentation for this beast? CRC From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 11 21:42:45 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:42:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111259q487a3ea3o2db916b63cac9056@mail.gmail.com> from Jason T at "Nov 11, 7 02:59:24 pm" Message-ID: <200711120342.lAC3gjIA005086@floodgap.com> > Those Apple // cards, are they the actual 100% emulation of the //e or > //c under old PDS Macs? Was there a SCSI 5.25" drive for Macs that > would read the Apple // disks? They are LC PDS only, not generic PDS, and are very simple cards with a 65C02, a "Mega II" chip, an IWM for floppy control (more in a moment) and 256K of RAM. Essentially, it's a IIe on steroids, on a card. I have never heard of a 5.25" SCSI drive for the Mac, and if you connect a 5.25" UniDisk to a Mac floppy port you will destroy the Mac FDC and possibly the floppy drive electronics. The II card came with a weird 26-pin Y-adaptor that had a floppy connector, and you plug the UniDisk into that (the other part of the Y was for a joystick). If you didn't have a disk drive, you could still use the internal FD if your Mac had one, or a hard disk partition, but in both cases they had to be formatted as ProDOS. Performance is best described as pedestrian on early LCs (mostly due to slow video, not CPU emulation, obviously), but is quite nice on later ones. If you find a Colour Classic, you can make a very nice portable Mac *and* Apple II. My Colour Classic has SCSI Ethernet, so it doesn't need to have anything in the PDS slot (thus the Apple II card can go there). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 21:46:54 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:46:54 -0800 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 11, 2007 6:55 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Admittedly, I was mulling over it too. This one is not only a real 65, it's > apparently in mostly working order (as much as any of the extant 65s are). > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230190927853 Wow, someone did the Buy-It-Now From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 21:52:43 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:52:43 -0800 Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: <200711120342.lAC3gjIA005086@floodgap.com> References: <51ea77730711111259q487a3ea3o2db916b63cac9056@mail.gmail.com> <200711120342.lAC3gjIA005086@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730711111952w14dda6b9x4c755950cac22cfe@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 11, 2007 7:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Performance is best described as pedestrian on early LCs (mostly due to slow > video, not CPU emulation, obviously), but is quite nice on later ones. If you > find a Colour Classic, you can make a very nice portable Mac *and* Apple II. > My Colour Classic has SCSI Ethernet, so it doesn't need to have anything in > the PDS slot (thus the Apple II card can go there). Hmm...I'm not big into Macs, but I do happen to have a Color Classic. This could give me reason to turn it on again. Bob, any interest in shipping the Apple // cards? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 11 22:14:06 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:14:06 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 10:46 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 65 = $5,000 > On Nov 11, 2007 6:55 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Admittedly, I was mulling over it too. This one is not only a real 65, it's > > apparently in mostly working order (as much as any of the extant 65s are). > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230190927853 > > Wow, someone did the Buy-It-Now The buyer seems to be a coin collector, wonder what he wants with it. Would anybody here pay $5K for one of these (did anybody)? From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 11 22:21:18 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:21:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> from Teo Zenios at "Nov 11, 7 11:14:06 pm" Message-ID: <200711120421.lAC4LI2Z008822@floodgap.com> > Would anybody here pay $5K for one of these (did anybody)? For one that is working as well as that one appears to be? I was considering it, although it would have been the financial equivalent of passing a large kidneystone. Still, there are few 65s, and probably only a handful of ones that function in any meaningful sense. They really are holy grails to us Commodore nuts. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't I be happier? ----------------------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 11 22:28:58 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:28:58 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120421.lAC4LI2Z008822@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002701c824e4$8b2b18e0$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 65 = $5,000 > > Would anybody here pay $5K for one of these (did anybody)? > > For one that is working as well as that one appears to be? I was considering > it, although it would have been the financial equivalent of passing a > large kidneystone. Still, there are few 65s, and probably only a handful of > ones that function in any meaningful sense. They really are holy grails to > us Commodore nuts. > I am sure $5k is nothing to some people on this list, the question I have in my mind is will somebody try to use this or will it end up as a check on some collectors list. Am I the only one who hopes to never complete his collection? It gives me a reason to keep looking, something to look forward to. TZ From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 11 22:32:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:32:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <002701c824e4$8b2b18e0$42aab941@game> from Teo Zenios at "Nov 11, 7 11:28:58 pm" Message-ID: <200711120432.lAC4Wq8P013582@floodgap.com> > I am sure $5k is nothing to some people on this list, the question I have in > my mind is will somebody try to use this or will it end up as a check on > some collectors list. I hope he does. This one is actually useable, so I certainly hope that he does at least turn it on once in awhile. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Michael Jackson is [reverse] Pinocchio: more lies, less nose. -- Vanity Fair From ray at arachelian.com Sun Nov 11 22:32:04 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:32:04 -0500 Subject: [lisaem] LisaEm 1.2.2 released - bugfixes In-Reply-To: <46F87B77.4000102@arachelian.com> References: <46F87B77.4000102@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4737D744.3040509@arachelian.com> LisaEm 1.2.2 has been released. As usual, it can be downloaded from http://lisaem.sunder.net/downloads.html This version is mostly bug fixes instead of features. VIA and printing bugs have been addressed, as well as cleaning up the code to allow compiling with Unicode enabled versions of wxWidgets, which is important for Linux distributions, and the version of wxWidgets included with OS X Leopard. It is no longer necessary to manually flush print jobs, though you still can. LisaEm now times printer output. If there's no activity to a printer for 10* seconds, it will close the print job. If you are sending LisaEm printouts to a PDF or PostScript file, it is still important not to print out several jobs from within Lisa Office System at the same time as LisaEm will see them as a single large job. (This doesn't matter if you're printing to paper, or images.) There are still some minor bugs in the ImageWriter emulation - the page size isn't quite exactly what LOS expects it to be, so multipage jobs tend to move the start of the page by several pixels. I'm also cleaning up the Generator CPU code so that it can become its own library, and will do the same for the ImageWriter code so that they, along with libdc42 can be used in other emulation projects (i.e. for example by Apple II, or Macintosh emulators.) Other bugs may still, of course, exist, if you find any, please let me know so that they can be fixed in future releases. (* The 10 second value is relative to running the virtual Lisa at 5MHz, running it at higher throttle values will speed up the waiting time.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lisa Emulator Change History http://lisaem.sunder.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- 1.2.2 Release ------------------------------------------------------------ 2007.11.11 - changed printing so that it auto-flushes print jobs. Printing works but the page size is slightly off so it tends to not line up properly when more than one page is printed. 2007.11.10 - cleaning up build.sh script + source code 2007.11.08 - fixed slot preferences - browse buttons between high/low ports were swapped. - fixed parallel port u/l assignments - opposite from what LOS uses 2007.11.02 - more via6522.c cleanup/fixes. 2007.10.18 - Renamed Profile menu to Parallel Port as it's more accurate 2007.10.15 - cleaning up Generator code so as to build it as its own library 2007.10.01 - looking into cleaning up unicode incompatibility bugs, rewrote bunches and bunches of string routines and fixed up some idiotic char * <-> wxString gymnastics. 2007.09.25 - Looking into via6522 bugs for MacWorks and Xenix, no luck there yet If you'd like to support this project, you can do so by sending me something from my Amazon wish list. (Used books and DVD's are perfectly fine with me.) The trains are for my kid. :) http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/14EOBF86ARMDT From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 11 22:49:05 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:49:05 -0800 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <200711120432.lAC4Wq8P013582@floodgap.com> References: <200711120432.lAC4Wq8P013582@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 8:32 PM -0800 11/11/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I am sure $5k is nothing to some people on this list, the >question I have in >> my mind is will somebody try to use this or will it end up as a check on >> some collectors list. > >I hope he does. This one is actually useable, so I certainly hope that he >does at least turn it on once in awhile. Agreed. BTW, does any emulator exist for the C65? An FPGA implementation would be sweet! I'd be willing to pay a nice chunk of change for a working C65, but am not about to spend anywhere near $5k. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 11 22:55:50 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:55:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 11, 7 08:49:05 pm" Message-ID: <200711120455.lAC4toJY016470@floodgap.com> > Agreed. BTW, does any emulator exist for the C65? MESS does, but last time I looked it was pretty dire. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Chemistry is applied theology. -- Augustus Stanley Owsley III -------------- From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Nov 11 23:04:56 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:04:56 -0000 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com><51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > The buyer seems to be a coin collector, wonder what he >wants with it. Hmm, I'd suspect he probably bought it as an "investment"...? > Would anybody here pay $5K for one of these (did anybody)? Never in a bazillion years, sheer madness! TTFN - Pete. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 11 23:15:06 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:15:06 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com><51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com><001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ensor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Commodore 65 = $5,000 > Hi, > > > The buyer seems to be a coin collector, wonder what he > >wants with it. > > Hmm, I'd suspect he probably bought it as an "investment"...? > > > > Would anybody here pay $5K for one of these (did anybody)? > > Never in a bazillion years, sheer madness! > > > TTFN - Pete. > People might think I am cheap, but every cent I put into my collection I consider gone forever. I think investing in hobbies is a scam, a few people with money toss it around driving the price up so they can sell at a profit until the hobby implodes (every hobby has gone through that and most never recover from the inflated prices). All this does is keep people with shallow pockets from enjoying the hobby as much as they could have otherwise. TZ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 11 23:21:42 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:21:42 -0800 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs Message-ID: > From: trixter at oldskool.org> > Jay West wrote:> > Jim wrote...> >> Public Service Announcement: The entire world of classic computer > >> collectors/restorers/enthusiasts is *not* made up of DEC-heads. Other > >> companies existed; other niches exist. It's a big hobby out there.> > > > Someone take a picture. Jim and I are in complete agreement on something ;)> > Holy mackerel :-) Hi I wish there was more talk about the Canon Cat but I also realize that it is quite rare( although, Jack Rubin just found one ). R. Cini's thread is of interest to me because I've built up a CP/M BIOS from scratch. Still, it is Jay's job to keep this list from just diverging into what ever. I've seen one of the news groups that's original charter was great that fell to a wasteland without the vigilance of a moderator. I'd not like to see that happen to this list. I think most ( including me ) have the occasional OT post but some seem to think that that is what the list is for. I try to police myself because I know how annoying it is to post that I could care less about. It is still a great list. Many on the list are great contributors. It is not a place to stand on a soap box and tell the world about everything that they can think of. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 11 23:25:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:25:13 -0800 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com>, <473738D4.27622.6BE0235@cclist.sydex.com>, <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47377339.30697.7A21D27@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2007 at 20:49, Jim Leonard wrote: > The digitized examples (Kennedy, etc.) weren't that much better > either... I wonder, with modern computers making the FFT analysis, could > the computalker produce intelligible output? I can only assume that the > original analysis was limited by the speed of its day. I don't know--the CT was a strange board. I do recall at one point having a Votrax Type'n'Talk RS-232 text-to-speech box installed on a terminal. To this day, I still say "ok" (rhymes with "sock")... ;) Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 11 23:29:48 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:29:48 -0700 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com><51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com><001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <4737E4CC.8090100@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > People might think I am cheap, but every cent I put into my collection I > consider gone forever. I think investing in hobbies is a scam, a few people > with money toss it around driving the price up so they can sell at a profit > until the hobby implodes (every hobby has gone through that and most never > recover from the inflated prices). All this does is keep people with shallow > pockets from enjoying the hobby as much as they could have otherwise. I consider eBAY a bigger SCAM on any product. Enlarge your **** will so be eBAY's top seller the way they are going. The main point that is HIS $5K, not mine and he can spend it any way he wants. > TZ Ben alias woodelf. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 23:37:27 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:37:27 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> Message-ID: > People might think I am cheap, but every cent I put into my collection I > consider gone forever. I think investing in hobbies is a scam, a few people > with money toss it around driving the price up so they can sell at a profit > until the hobby implodes (every hobby has gone through that and most never > recover from the inflated prices). All this does is keep people with shallow > pockets from enjoying the hobby as much as they could have otherwise. This would be an extremely risky investment. Really, the market for investing in classic computers has come and gone. The boat has left port. The days of picking the real raries up for nothing has ended (mostly*), especially on Ebay. 5000 dollars is a lot of money to many folks, but for an investor, it is small change. Will he be able to beat the S&P 500 with classic computers these days? Not a chance. Ten years ago, yes, when you could still pick up Altairs for a song. Investing in antiques and collectables is generally not a good idea, unless one can get in at the _very_ begininng of the curve in interest. For vintage computers, that was sometime back in the late 1990s. Likewise, it may come to a shock to many of the people on this list (but it should not), but the collectors with the deep pockets are generally the BEST collectors. They are the ones that know how to take care of the things they spent a bundle of money on - proper shipping, proper storage, proper use. They generally do not have their collections arranged as stacks in the spare room, but as properly displayed artifacts. And GASP, yes, they actually use them as well! Frankly, the whining about deep pocket collectors really just sounds like sour grapes to me. If you can not play with the Big Boys, too bad. NOTHING is stopping you from playing. *Yes, I know it still happens if you do the legwork. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 23:39:37 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:39:37 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <4737E4CC.8090100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> <4737E4CC.8090100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I consider eBAY a bigger SCAM on any product. Enlarge your **** will so > be eBAY's top seller the way they are going. No comment. -- Will, proud to have a large dick since 1998. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Nov 11 23:41:34 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:41:34 -0800 Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: <200711112208.lABM8Cbp077727@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711112208.lABM8Cbp077727@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2007, at 2:08 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Those Apple // cards, are they the actual 100% emulation of the //e or > //c under old PDS Macs? Was there a SCSI 5.25" drive for Macs that > would read the Apple // disks? > The Apple // cards (I think it was a //e) fit in the LC PDS (LC, LCII, LCIII, not sure about the '040 LCs) and are a genuine Apple product that was pretty much 100%. While most of the (usually schools) using them would move their Apple // software to either 3.5" or hard disk, I think that Apple made a Macintosh-compatible 5.25" floppy that would read Apple // disks (I know they made an IBM 5.25"-compatible floppy drive for Macintosh back in the late 1980s), but not many were sold. Pretty well engineered device if you have a LC-series Mac. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 11 23:44:14 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:44:14 -0800 Subject: CRC question Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 11 Nov 2007 at 10:37, dwight elvey wrote: > >> To my knowledge, I don't know if any of the assemblers had >> a CRC calculator built in. The final check number was most >> likely calculated after the assembly and just added to the code. >> If in the listing, this may have been a second pass through >> the assembler. > > MAC certainly didn't have one. I assume that the last 2 bytes of the > ROM were the zero-CRC-makers. The "quick and dirty way" to get a > zero sum is to compuate the CRC for the first n-2 bytes of the size n > ROM, then iterate through the 65536 possible 16-bit combinations of > the "corrector" stopping when a zero CRC is hit. It shouldn't take > long, particularly if you're using an emulator on a modern PC. > > You could also work out the reverse polynomial, but that sounds like > too much work for what probably will amount to a one-off deal. > > Cheers, > Chuck Hi Chuck As I recall, you just play the CRC forward with 0's in the two bytes. The value in the CRC is then just put into the place of the two bytes. It the will cancel to zero. I'd have to check that but that is what I recall. I recall it wasn't all that complicated. Remember, CRC circuits in controller chip do this for floppy disk without complicated circuits. It has been some time since I played with CRC's. I once had to write test to check CRC chips that used the Chinese Remainder Theorem to make data correction. I had to make sure that it corrected correctly by checking each part of the error correction. That was many years ago. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Boo!?Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 11 23:48:26 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:48:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: from Scott Quinn at "Nov 11, 7 09:41:34 pm" Message-ID: <200711120548.lAC5mQue012054@floodgap.com> > I think that Apple made a Macintosh-compatible 5.25" floppy that would > read Apple // disks I would love to be proven wrong on this, since it would potentially make my II disk archiving a lot easier, but I have never heard of such a device for the Mac. In the case of the IIe card, this was accomplished by connecting a regular Apple II 5.25" drive to the *card*, not the computer. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Honk if you're illiterate! ------------------------------------------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 00:02:32 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:02:32 -0500 Subject: MUSIC 4B Message-ID: One of my fun finds at the Record Fair while you folks were all out at VCF X is Paul Zukofsky's Lyric Variations for Violin and Computer, from 1967. Several of the pieces were made by an IBM 7094 running the MUSIC 4B program - non-real-time digital synthesis software. The pieces are interesting, and really sound like anything a good sized Moog modular could have made, but these pieces were done completely by the 7094 to seven track tape in batch mode, where they were later fed into a D/A converter in the studio. Listening to these, and knowing what went into making them, make them a bit more special than just music. Does MUSIC 4B still exist? Maybe this is an Al question. It certainly would be neat to play around with on a 7094 simulator. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 12 00:09:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:09:29 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47377D99.24731.7CAA1F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2007 at 21:44, dwight elvey wrote: > It has been some time since I played with CRC's. I once > had to write test to check CRC chips that used > the Chinese Remainder Theorem to make data correction. > I had to make sure that it corrected correctly by checking > each part of the error correction. That was many years > ago. I've still got the docs for the WD chip that would do both ECC and CRC. When I was securing data for computer forensics, I started with two interlocked CRCs using different polynomials. Eventually, the gummint expressed a preference for SHA hashes, so the CRC went the way of the dodo. SHA was a LOT slower than CRC or even MD5. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 12 00:18:27 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:18:27 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com><51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com><001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game><016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:37 AM Subject: Re: Commodore 65 = $5,000 > Likewise, it may come to a shock to many of the people on this list > (but it should not), but the collectors with the deep pockets are > generally the BEST collectors. They are the ones that know how to take > care of the things they spent a bundle of money on - proper shipping, > proper storage, proper use. They generally do not have their > collections arranged as stacks in the spare room, but as properly > displayed artifacts. And GASP, yes, they actually use them as well! > > Frankly, the whining about deep pocket collectors really just sounds > like sour grapes to me. If you can not play with the Big Boys, too > bad. NOTHING is stopping you from playing. > > *Yes, I know it still happens if you do the legwork. > > -- > Will What I meant to say is that the investor who get in turn the hobby into a business. Get in buy low, trade items around between other investors to drive up the costs, sell out and find another pump and dump hobby. It leaves people thinking their stuff is worth money when the people with the money are long gone. Granted people will dig up those rarities and trade them around so they do not get trashed, so there is a plus side to it (things get preserved). Exactly why would it matter if the big pocket collector has the item in his personal museum shrine, or in a cardboard box on the shelf next to his bowling ball, nobody else is ever going to see it again until he is dead. Others less well to do collectors seem to get something, play with it, and then trade it for something else they want and never had so things keep circulating in your lifetime. The only thing stopping me from fighting over the big boys for my collectables is that nothing I collect would interest the big deep pocket collectors in the first place. Everything I like was made in the thousands or millions, outbid me today and I just wait for the next one, or find it at a garage sale for $1. I guess if I was older and used computers pre 1980, I might want some of the rarer systems that command money, but they just don't mean anything to me so I don't bother. If Bill Gates wanted the most complete collection of vintage computers in existence all he has to do is hand Sellam a credit card, and one of his minions a check for a building to house it all in and wait a few months for delivery and setup. What fun would that be? Do you respect somebody more if they found a rusty HEMI Cuda in some old barn and spent 5 years restoring it to mint working condition as a labor of love, or somebody who seen one at an auction and just cut a check for it? TZ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Nov 12 00:18:30 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:18:30 -0800 Subject: Old Sun diags questions (4/300 and 3/200) Message-ID: <6b757db0dc36d3261cc60c8048a5c0fd@valleyimplants.com> > Dave McGuire writes: > On Nov 10, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Couple of questions on old Sun machines (well, parts). > > > > On a Sun 4300 CPU board, I'm getting the > > "EEPROM Write-Write-Read-Read test > > error PA=0xF2000000 VA=0X00FF8000 Exp=0x0000005a Obs=0x00000000 > > (looping)" > > error. Looking on the Web and Usenet seems to show that this has > > happened a couple of times, with some reference to possibly being > > the NVRAM (although the most comprehensive posing set was in > > German :(). This seems a bit odd, though - on my other Suns it > > calls the NVRAM the NVRAM, so I'm wondering if this is something > else. > > It's just a terminological difference. Most of those machines (if > I recall correctly) used 2816 NVRAM chips, which are also correctly > referred to as EEPROMs. Oh, so the Mostek unit isn't what this is talking about. Hmm- have to go over the board again. I saw the Mostek and assumed that it was the same as the 4c/m/u NVRAM setup . From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Nov 12 00:21:43 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:21:43 -0800 Subject: Cameron- you're server's still down Message-ID: Been trying to re-send, but it looks like your server still isn't quite right. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 12 00:33:55 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:33:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cameron- you're server's still down In-Reply-To: from Scott Quinn at "Nov 11, 7 10:21:43 pm" Message-ID: <200711120633.lAC6XtFd017682@floodgap.com> > Been trying to re-send, but it looks like your server still isn't quite > right. E-mail or web? Haven't noticed anything wrong, still getting mail ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Condense soup, not books! -------------------------------------------------- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 11 23:39:39 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:39:39 -0700 Subject: VCFX Photos References: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <51ea77730711111401k6d976bfdne41ada001b817dee@mail.gmail.com> <47378917.7000201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4737E71B.A05F84A@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Jason T wrote: > > On 11/11/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> The awesome differential engine mechanical computer looks as if it has > >> been made out of (or atleast held together with) meccano. Am I right? I > >> played with my dads meccano set when I was a kid, but didn't really build > >> much. > > > > The oracle of Wiki tells us that Meccano bought the Erector trademark > > around 1990, so I guess they are the same thing now. > > Ah, here's his page. Meccano it is: > > > > http://meccano.us/differential_analyzers/robinson_da/index.html > > > Hmm, I thought the company who had the rights had recently (within the last > year) folded, and so the future was uncertain. Maybe that was just the UK > distributors... > > Back on topic... > > I recently met up with some of the folks who run the Whipple Museum of the > History of Science, based at Cambridge uni (UK), and ended up spending an age > looking through some of their computing-related artifacts. Amongst the photos > was quite a pile of ones of a Meccano differential analyser built at the > university in the '30s and credited to John Lennard-Jones (under whom Maurice > Wilkes was a researcher). > > All really fascinating stuff - not only because of the fact that it was built, > but because of the material used :-) > > Didn't Manchester uni also have one built from Meccano? I think I've heard of > one before built there - not sure what year it was, though. Go to the link Jason supplied and then go up a level to differntial analysers In addition to the page for his own analyser, Tim Robinson has web pages there about both the Manchester and Cambridge analysers. According to Tim the Cambridge machine is in New Zealand and still exists. (back to VCFX photos) .. love that picture of the LINC, too. I haven't heard much comment on VCFX although the agenda looked like it was going to be quite interesting. I was curious what might have been said at the talk about the 4004 (thinking in part of the discussion here a couple of weeks ago). From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Nov 12 01:39:06 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 02:39:06 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question Message-ID: <01C824D5.73809620@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:32:38 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question Yes, I understand the 5-for-8 substitution. One of the challenges I'm having is finding a suitable disk image to try. If I get an 8" image I plan on jamming it onto a 5.25" HD disk and giving that a whirl. I made the "8"-only" distinction because one of the boards I have (the Versafloppy) has both connectors. It just saves a little time in not having to make a cable. ------------Reply: This is quite possibly not relevant to _your_ controller, but FWIW my Cromemcos have both the DD and the HD drives on the same cable, and the 50 pin connector is only used for the 'real' 8" drive. Although some of the signals have separate drivers/receivers, the 5 1/4 and 8" drives are effectively on the same bus; the only difference is that the 8" drives supply (and the FDC expects) a /READY signal on pin 22 (?) whereas the TM-100s did not supply that signal and the FDC does not look for it on the 5 1/4" cable; I suspect that's how the system distinguishes between the drives in order to select the correct speed. Modern HD drives _do_ supply a /READY signal on pin 34, although you'll probably have to change a jumper since PCs use it for Disk Change; the jumpers are in fact often labelled DC and RDY. Therefore all that is required is a jumper on the FDC from pin 34 of the 5" connector to pin 22 of the 8" (and of course any DD 5 1/4 drives must have their /READY signal disabled if it's active). The only other FDC I have any experience with is a Micropolis, and it _does_ use the /READY signal from its DD drives (although it looks for it on pin 6, which is normally DS3 or 4), so this wouldn't work. m From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 11 16:51:09 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question Message-ID: <0JRD004G7656LL73@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:33:20 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >-------------Original Messages: >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:23:30 -0500 >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > >Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the same category in my mind as >the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not requiring mods to my IMSAI. The Compupro only uses pines 20 and 70 for ground, you can cut if needed. HOWEVER and VERY BIG DEAL the CPRO 1 can boot... 8" or 5.25". The Cpro 1A is more adept at that and more flexible. Both have the problem of if you boot any of the sandard CPRO images the assumed serial port is one of the standards used by CPRO. The manual will help with this. >Now the thousand-dollar question -- does anyone have a suitable disk image I >could use? > CPRO images are out there. If you go with 5.25" a PC can write a DD boot disk (uses same 765!). Also if you can boot a 5.25" image you can boot a 3.5" image of the track/sector layout is same and same density. > >On 11/11/07 10:55 AM, "Tim Shoppa" >wrote: > >> "Richard A. Cini" wrote: >>> Oh, I also just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This >>> model has only a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so >>> I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller. >> >> Well, originally intended for 8" drives, but with a suitable adapter >> cable glue and a slightly modified BIOS it'll do 5.25" and 3.5" drives. >> >> Tim. > >Rich > >----------Reply: > >I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a >relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally >well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image >(if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not >even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, >although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. Different FDC WILL require a different bios. Same for SERIAL IO. Allison >Worth a try in any case. > >m From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 16:57:48 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:57:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Furguson Big Board II (was CRC question) In-Reply-To: <200711101736.42788.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <473627CB.3090208@bitsavers.org> <200711101736.42788.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 10 November 2007 16:51, Al Kossow wrote: >> > My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM I have a couple of interface boxes designed to put a BBII / Xerox CP/M machine on a Corvus flat-cable network. a) Has anyone else ever seen or used this? b) Does anyone have the software (or docs) for it? Steve -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 11 17:37:20 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:37:20 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JRD00JAS8A4SCM9@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:21:32 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Tarbell Update > >> >> > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing >> >> > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. >> >>(Snip) >> >> > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods >> >> > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! > >I can't speak for the exact combination of the Tarbell, but the >system has been running all day long with: >-16k static card >-8k static card >-4k static card Ok you have 28k ram. Is the image sized and booting in that? If the image is sized for say 32 or 48K it will crash, likely as a bounce back to rom monitor. >-2SIO Is the boot image set up for MITS 2SIO and does it set it up? >-1k ROM >-8k Byte saver I assume thse are in high memory and not below the address the image will try to boot to. CP/M wants from 0000h to system size as configured. When working on FDCs I load the system with a single known good RAM16, Ram17 or similar 64k static card that can kill the last 4 or 8k. I use a CPU with resident monitor and local ram (compupro CPU Z) and an CPro Interfacer for IO. At that point I know I have a known IO, known CPU and a monitor at F000h with POJ to F000h and ram at F800h. Any time there is doubt about these they get a quick retest in a known backplane (NS*Horizon). This means the system will be 4 boards max with the 4th being the FDC in question. I keep a CCS terminator card handy as it seemed to work the best of all of them. Things I've found in old backplanes. Staples under the S100 connectors. Metal under the backplane shorting to chassis. Terminators with burned off tracks. Metal bits in the connectors Bits of nonconductor in the connectors. Green cruft in the connectors (corrosion) Black card edge connectors (gold over copper without nickle flash, a bad thing) Power supplies with excessive ripple. (tired caps) Power traces fried on the backplane (altair 4slots) Signal traces missing... from a former short? That doesn't even touch on cards that just didn't play well in some machines or with certain other cards. Heres an example of a machine. I have two explorer 8085s. One I built back when and another aquired. They are identical as best as I can see or test. Mine runs perfect, always did with any card I've tried. the second is flaky, won't run any S100 card without a bus terminator and even then it's fussy. I've gone as far as to completely swap every chip (they are fully socketed) between the one that is cranky and my old one is still happy and the newer one not. I've even swapped PSs ( uses s100 style unregulated) and no dice. All on board (there are a few) regulators replaced on the bad one. No help. After a LONG time of testing and all the problem was a high resistance trace on the faulty board. I can see the signal at the source IC solder side but between there and it's terminus it's a 1000ohm resistor! One of the S100 status signals was not quite there and floating. I bridged the trace with blue wire between the two solder pads and it's solid now. I cannot even with a 10x scope see where the apparent crack is. That's chasing a phantom. But I do find the oddest of the odd. >-Tarbell FD > >It has been running solid a 4K ROM monitor from Dave >Dunfield. Floppy interface still doesn't work on either card, and >these cards were tested by someone else on an IMSAI with an Altair CPU card. If it's the monitor I think, it doesnt stress ram just sitting there. You need a memory exerciser running at a minimum to be sure. >>Some Z80 cards complicate the issue. They have different timing and at 4mhz >>some ram MAY NOT be fast enough. Either slow the z80 to 2mhz or more wait >>states from ram. > >The card I have has a switch for 2MHz. The tarbell with the reduced >clock speed will not work at anything higher like you suggested. I >have confirmed (from the person who shipped me the tarbell cards) >that the tarbell card with a reduced clock speed works normally with >a Z80 at 2MHz. Doesnt assure the FDC is set right for the drive and media. Also doesnt assure the media is SD or even bootable. Further is the media is not using a 2sio as the IO the system could boot and crash or appear to. > >I attached a logic analyzer to the drive and watched all of the >signals. Every thing looks normal to me. I hooked it to a 5.25" >drive and then to a 3.5" drive. The drives are sending everything >that they should. Then the FDC is potentialy not decoding the data. > >>Shows how rough the bus timing and noise can be. Is that a one piece >>backplane of the two sided variety or the one of the earlier Altair >>4 slot chains or single sided backplane? The reason is the earlier > >2x4 slot motherboards, but all of the wires are the same length >(there was a tip on that to reduce noise) ICKPOO. Those were the worst for ringing and bus power sag. Poke a scope at it, it's nasty. >I'm going to let the thing heat soak and then check the bus with an >oscilloscope and the CPU clock. if the oneshots are good ones once set they should say put. Then again there was lore and fact about what was and wasn't good. >You know, I'm worried that the reliability issues aren't related to >the Altair, but to a heavily modified tarbell card trying to write a >Tandon SSSD 5.25" onto a 3.5" disk??? Likely if the data rates are not set right for the FDC and it's data seperator (usually also oneshots) is not set right it will fail. Could even be a simple bad IDC crimp on the cable. > >Would any of you like to see the data coming out of the disk >drive? I can upload the logic analyzer data to my web site... Not I. If I did at the very least I'd also need to see the schematic and jumper info for the tarbel. Other wise it's just a pretty picture. >I will never be happy until I find the problem. I'd like to think >that with all of the information we have that I can make the Altair >as reliable as any other S-100 system. I have collected a lot of >errata and have applied it all to my system... That's why I won't >give up with this setup. : ) Most of the erata is lore not hard tried fixes. Most fall in the "it worked for me" realm. The problem is you have a lot of still possibles lurking. Oh, SA400 drives... had a problem with them and all that used that frame (sa400, 400l and 450). Seems if the spindle bearings go bad the amount of jitter on the data can exceed that of simple data seperators used with 1771 (especially RS early TRS80 with early EI). I'm sure it's possible to have the same problem with other drives. Showed up best with the SA alignment disk and a dual trace scope set up for data read EYE pattern. Allison >Thanks, >Grant From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Nov 12 00:10:01 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:10:01 -0800 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? In-Reply-To: <4737752F.9050605@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> <4737752F.9050605@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <4737EE39.2020703@msu.edu> If you're looking to part with the manual, let me know. Do eeprom programmers like this typically use a standard serial protocol to speak to the host PC, or is it usually proprietary per manufacturer? Anyone know what software the 280 used? Thanks, Josh joe heck wrote: > I have a 280, the operator's Manual, acceptance test procedure, Info > on a firmware update, the original device list, user notes from > 12/9/85, a field bulletin and a couple of wall charts. > > joe heck > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Nov 11, 2007, at 12:33 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> I picked up a Data I/O 280 programmer this weekend, without manuals >>> or software. According to Data I/O's webpage, it's no longer >>> supported at all, so they have nothing available for download/ >>> purchase/whatever. Anyone have software/manuals/anything for this >>> thing? >> >> >> I sold a 280 with documentation on eBay about a year ago...that's >> as close as I can get. :-( >> >> I don't recall it having been difficult to use. >> >> -Dave >> > > From jeffj at panix.com Mon Nov 12 00:13:34 2007 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:13:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) Message-ID: replying to ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) Message-ID: > I am not a 'normal' computer collector, if such a thing even exists. > For one thing I am primarily interested in the hardware design > (if I can get a machine running properly so that it boots the normal OS, > or runs the ROM software, or..., then I tend to lose interest in it). > I am interested in the electronics/engineering aspects, > the fact that the devices happen to be programmable computers is secondary to this. I think I'm in that camp too. I adored pulling apart old electronics to see the immense worksmanchip and craftsmanship required just for the assembly. Old military stuff was designed for reliability, maintenance, repairability, upgrade/replacement, etc. Even just verifying in-spec operation ment test points, built-in meters, test lamps, status indicators, etc. Things that are TOALLY MISSING from today's equipment. Will I ever build anything that magnificent by myself? Unlikely, but I can still aim high. [a quick rant: I've been having problems with my cable internet. I knew it was the modem by watching the status leds as it kept rebooting. How's anyone to diagnose things with only a power LED? Yea, it's sure great to buy 500+ gig hard drives for $100 but without a REAL activity LED, how am I to assure what drive is active? Some drives used to even blink diagnostics on their LED. New PCs are sure fast but without activity LEDs, how is one to isolate faults? That's a far cry from the mainframes with diagnostic LEDs on each card or part for fault isolation Yea, remote diagnostics and SMART give more details but after all that, someone still has to touch the hardware!] > This has several implications. The first, which I think is on-topic, > is that I am equally interested in peripherals as CPUs. > I want to run my PDP11 with RK05s and RK07s and RL02s, and... > Not an IDE drive pretending to be the above. > The design of the servo system in an RK07 > is every bit as interesting to me as the processor. I both agree and disagree. Yes, it's amazing seeing things in motion (particulalry linear motors) and motion control systems where you can SEE the feedback sensors and signals (not just a black-blob of a DSP doing all the work). BUT - when those drives were in common use, there was a support infrastructure. You could buy new disks and the cleaning kits and hire people to clean and check the disks and drives for "preventive maintenance". The drudgery of doing all that maintenance myself made me give up many such projects of running old equipment :-( -- Jeff Jonas From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 12 00:18:28 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:18:28 -0700 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com><51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com><001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game><016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <4737F035.682207BE@cs.ubc.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > > If Bill Gates wanted the most complete collection of vintage computers in > existence all he has to do is hand Sellam a credit card, and one of his > minions a check for a building to house it all in and wait a few months for > delivery and setup. What fun would that be? Do you respect somebody more if Speaking of Gates and deep pockets, what's happened with Paul Allen's collecting/museum effort? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 12 01:21:22 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:21:22 -0800 Subject: MUSIC 4B Message-ID: <4737FEF2.3000203@bitsavers.org> > Does MUSIC 4B still exist? Barry Vercoe at the Media Lab might know. I don't think CHM has a copy. From memory, MIT's MUSIC 11 has roots in the Bell program. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 12 01:22:01 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:22:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <4737F035.682207BE@cs.ubc.ca> from Brent Hilpert at "Nov 11, 7 11:18:28 pm" Message-ID: <200711120722.lAC7M1Bs012136@floodgap.com> > > If Bill Gates wanted the most complete collection of vintage computers in > > existence all he has to do is hand Sellam a credit card, and one of his > > minions a check for a building to house it all in and wait a few months for > > delivery and setup. What fun would that be? Do you respect somebody more if > > Speaking of Gates and deep pockets, what's happened with Paul Allen's > collecting/museum effort? It's all on his submarine somewhere. Some guy with metal teeth who doesn't talk much is guarding it, but they keep having trouble with some English dude and his martinis. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If there was a hole, I would jump into it. -- Gackt Camui ------------------ From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Nov 12 01:28:42 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:28:42 +0000 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <4737E71B.A05F84A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <51ea77730711111401k6d976bfdne41ada001b817dee@mail.gmail.com> <47378917.7000201@yahoo.co.uk> <4737E71B.A05F84A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1194852522.23248.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sun, 2007-11-11 at 22:39 -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Go to the link Jason supplied and then go up a level to differntial analysers > In addition to the page for his own analyser, Tim Robinson has web pages there > about both the Manchester and Cambridge analysers. According to Tim the Cambridge > machine is in New Zealand and still exists. I've just visited the museum in Auckland that has it. I have some photos on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=analyser&w=82189696%40N00 The first one is a new display at the museum of (part of) the analyser. If you click on this photo you'll see that the adjacent photo is of a 360/40 which is part of the same display (with a 2314). The other photos of the meccano machine were taken a few years ago as it was being restored. There are also some photos of my 'toy' differential analyser which I made while at highschool (I was inspired by the meccano machine which had been on display in the '70s; the design was from Scientific American.) Background on the Cambridge machine: http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/tech/7627BB58BAFE998DCC257317001AA6D1 (I had hoped to get to VCFX on the way home, but thanks to BA cancelling my outbound flight I didn't make it.) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com Mon Nov 12 01:30:33 2007 From: Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com (Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:30:33 +0100 Subject: VXT2000+ Message-ID: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A892279@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> Hi Henk, I'm in the Netherlands and I would like to have the unit as well. We are still using it in a sort of test environment and we have a defect power supply in one of them. We are willing to pay the shipping and additional costs. Regards Rinaldo -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: zondag 11 november 2007 13:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: VXT2000+ Hi ?ngel, I checked the TPG website. Pity that the unit is just over 5 kilos, that would have saved 5 euro. Shipping inside Europe will be 24 euros. I have to find a good box to ship it safely ...If you are interested, send me an off-list e-mail. BTW, I have been in Granada and seen the beautiful Alhambra! thanks, Henk > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:47:38 +0100> From: ama at ugr.es> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: VXT2000+> > Hi Henk,> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 11:45:56AM +0100, Henk Gooijen wrote:> > I am about to throw out a complete VXT2000+> > Shipping overseas is probably not worth it> > (I am in The Neterlands), but if somebody> > needs a specific part, I am willing to disassemble> > the VXT before it becomes landfill. The VXT is> > in good shape AFAIK, but can not test it ... > > I might be interested on the terminal if shipping price permits :-)> > How much could it be to ship to Granada, Spain?> > Thanks and greetings,> ?ngel> > -- > Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926> Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073> Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es> C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama/> E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org> PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key> 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591> ------------------------------------------------------> () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/> /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments> http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachment(s) sent with it are intended exclusively for the addressee(s), and may not be used by, opened by, passed on to, or made available for use to, any person other than the addressee(s). Stork rules out any and all liabilities resulting from any electronic transmission. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 12 00:34:23 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:34:23 -0700 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120722.lAC7M1Bs012136@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4737F3EF.DFFED47C@cs.ubc.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > If Bill Gates wanted the most complete collection of vintage computers in > > > existence all he has to do is hand Sellam a credit card, and one of his > > > minions a check for a building to house it all in and wait a few months for > > > delivery and setup. What fun would that be? Do you respect somebody more if > > > > Speaking of Gates and deep pockets, what's happened with Paul Allen's > > collecting/museum effort? > > It's all on his submarine somewhere. Some guy with metal teeth who doesn't > talk much is guarding it, but they keep having trouble with some English > dude and his martinis. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- If there was a hole, I would jump into it. -- Gackt Camui ------------------ Ha!; serendipity was supposed to put up one of your "Bond theme now playing:" sig lines at the end of that message. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 12 01:52:36 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:52:36 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation Message-ID: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> Hi, I don't know if anyone else noticed but MIT has released the source (and documentation) to MULTICS. The link is: http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/ I haven't gone through it (yet) but thought I should bring this great news to everyone's attention. -- TTFN - Guy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 12 02:14:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:14:19 -0700 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > I don't know if anyone else noticed but MIT has released the source (and > documentation) to MULTICS. The link is: > http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/ > > I haven't gone through it (yet) but thought I should bring this great > news to everyone's attention. > But what machines could run the that today? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 12 00:18:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:18:12 -0700 Subject: HP2116 inventory References: <473737B2.4080604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4737F024.27A9C55F@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > > if someone has service > > manuals for the C it would be nice if scans could eventually find their way to bitsavers. > > I have a lot of material for the C as well as B from a large collection I obtained a few > years ago. The only thing I don't appear to have are the schematics for the 2116A. > > All this needs to get sorted out to be included with material available through the HP/CHM > agreement. Great, nice to know they may be there someday. I was interested in perusing the schematics to answer some questions about stuff specific to the C, but don't have a compelling/immediate need for them. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 12 02:17:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:17:28 -0700 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47380C18.9090909@jetnet.ab.ca> woodelf wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I don't know if anyone else noticed but MIT has released the source >> (and documentation) to MULTICS. The link is: >> http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/ >> >> I haven't gone through it (yet) but thought I should bring this great >> news to everyone's attention. >> > But what machines could run the that today? PS. Takes a look at the web link. Funny how NOW MIT releases source,but they never saved a a copy of the source code. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 12 02:28:09 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:28:09 +0000 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <200711120421.lAC4LI2Z008822@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/07 04:21, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: >> Would anybody here pay $5K for one of these (did anybody)? > > For one that is working as well as that one appears to be? I was considering > it, although it would have been the financial equivalent of passing a > large kidneystone. Still, there are few 65s, and probably only a handful of > ones that function in any meaningful sense. They really are holy grails to > us Commodore nuts. Up until shortly after the 2005 Classic Gaming Expo in the UK my Rev 3 C65 was working fully too, and certainly turned heads every time it was exhibited. I had to really keep an eye on it because a couple of wags kept putting it in C64 mode :) I really need to update my own web page too, particularly now that I know why the C65 was created in the first place.... http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Commodore/c65/index.php And no, even with the current USD/GBP exchange rate I still couldn't afford $5K! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 12 02:48:09 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:48:09 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 1:14 AM -0700 11/12/07, woodelf wrote: >Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>Hi, >> >>I don't know if anyone else noticed but MIT has released the source >>(and documentation) to MULTICS. The link is: >>http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/ >> >>I haven't gone through it (yet) but thought I should bring this >>great news to everyone's attention. Thanks for that info, I'm quite interested, and was unaware of this. >But what machines could run the that today? Either the GE-645 or Honeywell 6180 (DPS-8 family), hopefully someone will look into writing an emulator now. I'd love to see GCOS-8 of the same vintage as the MULTICS release available in some form (it also ran on a DPS-8). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 12 03:03:42 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:03:42 +0000 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> , <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com> , <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> <473738D4.27622.6BE0235@cclist.sydex.com> <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1194858222.6475.2.camel@elric.inet> On Sun, 2007-11-11 at 20:49 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 11 Nov 2007 at 17:11, Jason T wrote: > > > >> Has anyone put the audio file online of the demo tape? > > > > Found it: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker.htm > > I was going to ask you why it cracked you up until I heard the > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker4-text2speech.wav example > -- holy crud, I couldn't understand a single word! > > The digitized examples (Kennedy, etc.) weren't that much better > either... I wonder, with modern computers making the FFT analysis, could > the computalker produce intelligible output? I can only assume that the > original analysis was limited by the speed of its day. It's not surprising if they used the same mikes and mike technique to record the initial samples as they did to record the demo tape. Listen to the "Technical Details" samples - *TUUUH*echnical *DDDUUUUUHH*etails (it's quite hard to describe thermonuclear explosion breath pops in ASCII). I know that the codec used in TI's stuff was particularly susceptible to background noise. Gordon From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 03:24:01 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:24:01 +1100 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com><51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <016901c8250d$c51a8030$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 3:14 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 65 = $5,000 > Would anybody here pay $5K for one of these (did anybody)? Near complete ? Yeah, I would. Lance // http://www.commodore128.org // From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 12 03:31:32 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:31:32 +0000 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <1194852522.23248.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <51ea77730711111401k6d976bfdne41ada001b817dee@mail.gmail.com> <47378917.7000201@yahoo.co.uk> <4737E71B.A05F84A@cs.ubc.ca> <1194852522.23248.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <47381D74.8040206@yahoo.co.uk> Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Sun, 2007-11-11 at 22:39 -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Go to the link Jason supplied and then go up a level to differntial analysers >> In addition to the page for his own analyser, Tim Robinson has web pages there >> about both the Manchester and Cambridge analysers. According to Tim the Cambridge >> machine is in New Zealand and still exists. > > I've just visited the museum in Auckland that has it. Is it at MOTAT? Unfortunately I never saw it when I was there - maybe it was all in storage then :( Certainly looks like the one in the period photos that I was looking at, anyway. There was some correspondence along with the photos at the Whipple museum - it didn't say that the machine had survived, but as I recall the photo collection *did* come from someone in Australia (I'm 99% certain it was shipped from Australia, not NZ). As they museum had the photos for a few years now, it seems to all tie up (there's a fair bit of moving back and forth between NZ and Australia, after all) > The other photos of the meccano machine were taken a few years ago as it > was being restored. That'll be why I didn't see it then (assuming it is MOTAT). Shame. Their Strowger exchange was darn impressive though (and I spent ages staring into the mercury arc rectifier which was part of their tram system :-) Still, it's an excuse to go back again... :-) cheers Jules From grant at stockly.com Mon Nov 12 03:43:21 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:43:21 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRD00JAS8A4SCM9@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRD00JAS8A4SCM9@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JRE00J4L0FFJT10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Allison, thanks a lot for the detailed response! A lot of that info can be used to help other people too! I've written this e-mail from the "bottom up", so some things may seem out of order in the time line. I think that I'm to the point where I've narrowed the problem down to inside the tarbell card, but I don't think the problem is the 1771. Any further hints are well appreciated. : ) I think we're getting closer! > >I can't speak for the exact combination of the Tarbell, but the > >system has been running all day long with: > >-16k static card > >-8k static card > >-4k static card The disks are 24k CP/M 1.4, the 4k is for the monitor. Forgot to say that... Included on my source disk (which is read by the flaky tarbell) is a BIOS for 48k CP/M, but I have never had it going long enough to patch, movcpm, or whatever it is that has to be done to get the new CP/M onto the disk... >Ok you have 28k ram. Is the image sized and booting in that? >If the image is sized for say 32 or 48K it will crash, likely >as a bounce back to rom monitor. See previous response for a description. When it runs, it runs. When it doesn't...it doesn't : ( I spent all day long writing my own tarbell driver / monitor program that would select, reset, seek, read, write, etc. When I tried the read monitor command for the first time I didn't get an error. I tried booting CP/M and it worked... Then I swapped to the more troublesome tarbell card to get errors (I know, stupid) The problem appears to be within the tarbell card. I can reliably get my tarbell monitor to report this: " > Reading A Sector ERROR: Record Not Found! " When I swap to the "better" tarbell, the basic sector read command passes. (BTW, the reliably bad one above did boot CP/M once and gave me a few good sectors!!! And I've swapped the 1771 between boards and the bad stays bad and good stays good!) Basically I use the monitor to clean the memory, load my program, and then I flip the reset switch on the Altair. The Altair runs my program which starts at 0000 and then jumps back into the rom monitor. Here is the tarbell being good: " MON85 Version 1.1 Copyright 1979-2006 Dave Dunfield All rights reserved. > F0000 3000 00 > L > Reading A Sector MON85 Version 1.1 Copyright 1979-2006 Dave Dunfield All rights reserved. > m2000 2000 1E 0A 31 00 01 21 00 45 16 33 0E 02 06 04 79 CD ..1..!.E.3....y. 2010 2A 00 15 CA 00 5A 06 00 0C 79 FE 13 DA 0F 00 3E *....Z...y.....> 2020 53 D3 F8 DB FC 0E 01 C3 0C 00 D3 FA CD 41 00 3E S............A.> 2030 88 B0 D3 F8 DB FC B7 F2 41 00 DB FB 77 23 C3 34 ........A...w#.4 2040 00 DB F8 E6 9D C8 1D C2 02 00 32 80 00 2F D3 FF ..........2../.. 2050 C3 50 00 00 5A 80 04 19 00 02 00 45 80 04 15 01 .P..Z......E.... 2060 01 80 51 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ..Q............. 2070 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C3 00 00 ................ " I have to pull the card out to enable the boot rom...guess what, it boots...but at the moment it is only reading "real" DD media. The HD media with the tape "works" but BDOS complains about "bad sectors". This HD disk on another day works just fine. I ran one of the programs: "A>disktest TARBELL MINI-FLOPPY DIAGNOSTIC OF 8-1-80 STANDARD VERSION 1.8 40 TRACKS 18 SECTORS SELECT DRIVE. (A/B/C/D) a HOW MANY RETRYS? (0-9) 4 SELECT STEP RATE. (S=40MS,M=20MS,F=12MS) m FULL TRACK SEEK? (Y/N) y TO START TEST TYPE RETURN. 0 READ ERRORS DETECTED. REPEAT TEST? (Y/N) " Maybe that gives you a clue as to what I'm working with. And if I try my HD disks it does this: (to every sector on every track) " READ RECORD NOT FOUND ERROR. TRACK 0 SECTOR 1 READ RECORD NOT FOUND ERROR. TRACK 0 SECTOR 2 READ RECORD NOT FOUND ERROR. TRACK 0 SECTOR 3 " Last weekend that was my boot disk and I had several basic programs compiled with basic-e on it. >Is the boot image set up for MITS 2SIO and does it set it up? I have a session captured from "once upon a time" when it booted (which is more random than anything I can think of) "TARBELL 24K CPM V1.4 OF 7-20-79 2SIO MINIFLOPPY VERSION. HOW MANY DISKS? 2 A>dir A: CPM COM A: SYSGEN COM A: DDT COM A: COPY COM A: PIP COM A: ASM COM A: STAT COM A: ED COM A: FORMAT COM A: DISKTEST COM A: DUMPDSK COM A: BASIC COM A: RUN COM A> " >I assume thse are in high memory and not below the address the image will >try to boot to. CP/M wants from 0000h to system size as configured. My bytesaver is at C000 and 4k of sram for the monitor is at E000. There is 24k of contigous memory at 0000. >Doesnt assure the FDC is set right for the drive and media. >Also doesnt assure the media is SD or even bootable. >Further is the media is not using a 2sio as the IO the system could >boot and crash or appear to. The drive, tarbell, and boot disks were mailed to me from a fellow enthusiast. He made all of the modifications, made the disks, etc. He has tested the setup in an IMSAI (kind of) with my (kit) CPU, a SSM 8080, and a ZPU at 2MHz. To add to that, I have myself booted off the setup, formatted disks, made copies, ran the basic compilier, ran asm, etc. But something (and I think its IN??? the tarbell card does not like me, Alaska, my Altiar... I don't know! : ( A quote: "My Imsai has a standard front panel with a factory suggested mod. to do a power-on halt at zero. It has two 16K Industrial Microsystems static ram boards, a SIO2 serial board and a SSM 8080 CPU. The prom on the Tarbell is turned off to let the front panel operate properly at power on. The Tarbell is then booted by using a MITS eprom board and the 1702A eprom you burned for me. The power supply is a Industrial Microsystems switching supply which powers both the drives and the backplane Following is the different configurations I have used in the test unit to boot the Tarbell; 1. With a Z80 Cromemco ZPU set at 2Mhz, power-on jump set to zero and no front panel. The Tarbell boots at power-on and will do a cold boot every time you push the reset button. 2. With a ZPU and Imsai front panel the Tarbell boots only when the run switch is pushed. 3. With the Altair CPU and no front panel the Tarbell will not boot at power on or after a reset! 4. With the Altair CPU and the Imsai front panel the Tarbell will boot after you push reset and then push the run switch. After the Tarbell boards boot I have never had a problem or dropout in CP/M with any CPU- front panel configuration. The static ram boards use low power chips and run cool. Remember my Altair CPU board uses a 8224 in the oscillator circuit and I replaced the 8T97 with 74LS367's. " This is some info on the mod: "The modification we have on our Tarbell boards was designed for the 5.25 Tandon TM-100 single sided. single density 48tpi drive which was one of the first 5.25 drives produced. It might be that some of the new 3.5 drives just won't work with the setup we are using." >Could even be a simple bad IDC crimp on the cable. I have tried a few FDC cables. Maybe I should make a new one. Time for bed. : ( Grant From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 12 03:51:05 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:51:05 +0000 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com><51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com><001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <47382209.9060005@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > People might think I am cheap, but every cent I put into my collection I > consider gone forever. I try to never spend money on the hobby other than fuel costs (I much prefer meeting people face to face when I can, so I've driven halfway across the country lots of times to pick stuff up or drop stuff off...) Despite that, I've had an awful lot of rare things, prototypes, 'internal' documentation for machines etc. pass through my hands. There's a whole world out there beyond the likes of Ebay and the interesting stuff is still out there and needing homes - it just takes effort in talking to people and chasing up leads to find it, rather than waiting for it to fall into your lap via a web query. Personally I like that 'detective work' side of things anyway, so I'd still be doing it even if I did want to throw serious cash at the hobby. Plus you get to meet and chat with some pretty interesting characters along the way, which is half the fun :-) Would I pay $5k for a machine? Not when there will still be others around lurking in basements, or which can be traded for other items of equal interest (I do like a good bit of bartering once in a while :-) If it were the last one left of its kind? Maybe, but only if I raised the $5k by selling other bits of my collection. There are more interesting things in life to lose $5k on. (I'm not sure why I'm like this with computers - I used to pour silly amounts of money into classic cars. Maybe I see vintage computing as a zero-cost hobby just because it *can* be, with a little effort; it's much harder to buy, restore and run an old car on no budget) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 12 05:39:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:39:45 -0700 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:18:27 -0500. <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> Message-ID: In article <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > If Bill Gates wanted the most complete collection of vintage computers in > existence all he has to do is hand Sellam a credit card, and one of his > minions a check for a building to house it all in and wait a few months for > delivery and setup. What fun would that be? Its not Bill Gates you need to worry about (he doesn't give a shit); its Paul Allen. And the fun of it is that the's got a DEC-10 and TOAD system up and running that I can use with a free login. He pays the power bills and builds the machine room and I get to use the machine for free just like it was sucking up dollars in my basement. Sounds good to me. > Do you respect somebody more if > they found a rusty HEMI Cuda in some old barn and spent 5 years restoring it > to mint working condition as a labor of love, or somebody who seen one at an > auction and just cut a check for it? To be honest, I don't respect the people who whine about what other people do with their collection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 12 05:41:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:41:30 -0700 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:51:05 +0000. <47382209.9060005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <47382209.9060005 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Despite that, I've had an awful lot of rare things, prototypes, 'internal' > documentation for machines etc. pass through my hands. There's a whole world > out there beyond the likes of Ebay and the interesting stuff is still out > there and needing homes - it just takes effort in talking to people and > chasing up leads to find it, rather than waiting for it to fall into your lap > via a web query. So far, web queries are much more productive for me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 12 05:55:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:55:18 -0700 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:52:36 -0800. <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: In article <47380644.70701 at shiresoft.com>, Guy Sotomayor writes: > I don't know if anyone else noticed but MIT has released the source (and > documentation) to MULTICS. The link is: > http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/ Very interesting! It looks like most of MULTICS was written in PL/1? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 12 05:56:49 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:56:49 -0700 Subject: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:13:34 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Jeff Jonas writes: > Even just verifying in-spec operation ment test points, > built-in meters, test lamps, status indicators, etc. > Things that are TOALLY MISSING from today's equipment. All those things are still there, its called JTAG. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 12 09:03:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:03:22 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: <47377D99.24731.7CAA1F5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47377D99.24731.7CAA1F5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 11 Nov 2007 at 21:44, dwight elvey wrote: > >> It has been some time since I played with CRC's. I once >> had to write test to check CRC chips that used >> the Chinese Remainder Theorem to make data correction. >> I had to make sure that it corrected correctly by checking >> each part of the error correction. That was many years >> ago. > > I've still got the docs for the WD chip that would do both ECC and > CRC. When I was securing data for computer forensics, I started with > two interlocked CRCs using different polynomials. Eventually, the > gummint expressed a preference for SHA hashes, so the CRC went the > way of the dodo. SHA was a LOT slower than CRC or even MD5. > Hi Chuck What are SHA hashes? I've not heard that term before. The CRC chips I was looking at were from AMD when I worked for Systems Industries. Now I work for AMD but the only thing they work on today are processors. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 12 09:12:53 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:12:53 -0800 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <4737E71B.A05F84A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <51ea77730711111401k6d976bfdne41ada001b817dee@mail.gmail.com> <47378917.7000201@yahoo.co.uk> <4737E71B.A05F84A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca ---snip--- > > I haven't heard much comment on VCFX although the agenda looked like it was > going to be quite interesting. I was curious what might have been said at the > talk about the 4004 (thinking in part of the discussion here a couple of weeks ago). Hi I was there for Tim's talk on the 4004. I'd heard most of it before. Tim has recreated a 4004 from original pictures of the die and films from Intel. The recreation is all from descrete transistors. Of course it is much bigger. When they made the chip, it was all layed out by hand. The mylar film sheets the got from Intel had errors on them and were not the final mask used to create the chips. The choise of a 16 pin part was because that was what was being used for RAMs at Intel. It was done as a cost saving. Sellam had a Busicom machine to show. It was relabled as a Unicom or something like that. He'd picked it up at a thrift shop for $5 and had let it sit in his storage for several years. When he eventually opened it up, he realized that it was a busicom with the original 4004 design. Quite a find. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 09:28:16 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:28:16 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <47382209.9060005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> <47382209.9060005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > There's a whole world > out there beyond the likes of Ebay and the interesting stuff is still out > there and needing homes - it just takes effort in talking to people and > chasing up leads to find it, rather than waiting for it to fall into your lap > via a web query. > > Personally I like that 'detective work' side of things anyway, so I'd still be > doing it even if I did want to throw serious cash at the hobby. Plus you get > to meet and chat with some pretty interesting characters along the way, which > is half the fun :-) You have climbed the ladder of enlightenment. -- Will From bob at jfcl.com Mon Nov 12 09:36:06 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:36:06 -0800 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005601c82541$be2e33a0$3a8a9ae0$@com> >Jason T (silent700 at gmail.com) >Who's buying these things? Are they popular with collectors? Or are >they still being used in the disability care industry? You don't say which models you're talking about, but the DECtalk Express and DTPC1/2 (ISA card versions) are popular with blind people. My wife in particular would really love to have an Express. She has a couple of DTPC1s, though - if you have an extra DECtalk Express, I might be able to talk her into a swap. Bob Armstrong From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 12 09:37:10 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:37:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <4737F3EF.DFFED47C@cs.ubc.ca> from Brent Hilpert at "Nov 11, 7 11:34:23 pm" Message-ID: <200711121537.lACFbA9E020548@floodgap.com> > > > Speaking of Gates and deep pockets, what's happened with Paul Allen's > > > collecting/museum effort? > > It's all on his submarine somewhere. Some guy with metal teeth who doesn't > > talk much is guarding it, but they keep having trouble with some English > > dude and his martinis. > Ha!; serendipity was supposed to put up one of your "Bond theme now playing:" > sig lines at the end of that message. Good point! I should have rigged it or hand-edited the sig or something. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mickey Mouse wears a Spiro Agnew watch. ------------------------------------ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 09:41:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:41:45 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> Message-ID: > What I meant to say is that the investor who get in turn the hobby into a > business. Get in buy low, trade items around between other investors to > drive up the costs, sell out and find another pump and dump hobby. This has not happened in the vintage computer field. If it has, please show the evidence. > Exactly why would it matter if the big pocket collector has the item in his > personal museum shrine, or in a cardboard box on the shelf next to his > bowling ball, nobody else is ever going to see it again until he is dead. You are very wrong. The Big Boys are just as open and nice as the average collectors. Most are happy to show off their toys, and many will indeed trade. The Big Boys also tend to have plans for their estates, including their expensive collections - something the average collectors are sorely lacking. Of course, when someone like you whines about them, smears their names, and somehow places your collecting philosophy above their's - well, I would not be expecting any invites and time soon... -- Will From trag at io.com Mon Nov 12 10:02:01 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:02:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: <200711120747.lAC7lL7r086751@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711120747.lAC7lL7r086751@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <38603.209.163.133.242.1194883321.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:41:34 -0800 > From: Scott Quinn > Subject: Re: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > The Apple // cards (I think it was a //e) fit in the LC PDS (LC, LCII, > LCIII, not sure about the '040 LCs) and are a genuine Apple product > that was pretty much 100%. While most of the (usually schools) using > them would move their Apple // software to either 3.5" or hard disk, I > think that Apple made a Macintosh-compatible 5.25" floppy that would > read Apple // disks (I know they made an IBM 5.25"-compatible floppy > drive for Macintosh back in the late 1980s), but not many were sold. The IIe card has an actual IIe-in-a-chip on board. It plugs into an LC slot. The "LC-slot" originated on the Mac LC, but was instantiated on many Mac models after that. The rule to distinguish 68040 based machines with an LC slot is that 68040 machines which can boot into 24 bit addressing mode will support the IIe card and 68040 machines which cannot boot into 24 bit addressing mode (IOW, 32 bit only) cannot support the IIe card, even though it will plug into the LC slot. IIRC, the Quadra 605/LC605/P605 supports the IIe card and the Quadra 630 family (Q630, 631, 635, 636, 640, and LC and Performas with same numbers) does not. Most machines with an LC style expansion slot have no other expansion slots, so installation of a IIe card precludes adding an ethernet card and other expansions. The Q63x family has a comm slot and an LC slot, so one could have an ethernet card in the comm slot and a IIe board in the LC slot, if they supported the IIe, which they don't. Grrrrr. The IIe card has a connector on the back plane for a custom cable. The custom cable splits into a joystick connector and a floppy drive connector. So one can connect a IIe joystick to the IIe card and one can also connect a 5.25" floppy drive to the connector on the special cable. IIRC, there is a model(s) of 5.25" drive which will work and another (others?) which will not, but I don't rememember which is which. Still, one does not need a special 5.25" drive. The connector is for one of the external 5.25" drives which was supported on the original Mac IIe. The IIe card uses the host machine's keyboard, mouse, display, hard drive and built-in 3.5" floppy drive. A IIe expansion card enthusiast has a very informative website up on the topic. And I will be useless here and fail to have the URL. But the resource exists and covers the information above to a useful level of detail. Jeff Walther From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Nov 12 10:01:27 2007 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:01:27 +0100 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: References: <47377D99.24731.7CAA1F5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071112160127.GB6972@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 07:03:22AM -0800, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > From: cclist at sydex.com > > > > On 11 Nov 2007 at 21:44, dwight elvey wrote: > > > >> It has been some time since I played with CRC's. I once > >> had to write test to check CRC chips that used > >> the Chinese Remainder Theorem to make data correction. > >> I had to make sure that it corrected correctly by checking > >> each part of the error correction. That was many years > >> ago. > > > > I've still got the docs for the WD chip that would do both ECC and > > CRC. When I was securing data for computer forensics, I started with > > two interlocked CRCs using different polynomials. Eventually, the > > gummint expressed a preference for SHA hashes, so the CRC went the > > way of the dodo. SHA was a LOT slower than CRC or even MD5. > > > > Hi Chuck > > What are SHA hashes? I've not heard that term before. SHA ist a family of secure hash functions. Usually, SHA-1 is used as a cryptographically strong hash function. General take on SHA hash functions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-1 FIPS publication 180-1 on the Secure Hash Standard: http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/fip180-1.htm Unfortunately, SHA-1 has been broken more than 2 years ago, so while it is fine for error detection, it is not a good idea to use SHA-1 alone for signatures. At a project were we needed digital signature to authenticate documents, we computed three different hash functions (SHA-1, MD5 and RMD160) and signed the resulting signature file with a PGP key. > The CRC chips I was looking at were from AMD when I > worked for Systems Industries. Now I work for AMD > but the only thing they work on today are processors. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 10:21:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:21:42 -0500 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com> <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <118D6016-2E5B-41CE-9DB1-584A27336880@neurotica.com> On Nov 11, 2007, at 6:11 PM, Jason T wrote: >> Do you have the S100 Computalker? The demo tape for that thing >> cracked me up. > > I do not. The only other speech box I've got (aside from those that > went with game systems like the Intellivision or computers like the > TI99/4a) is a non-op Votrax Type'n'Talk, which I remember fondly from > old magazines in my C64 days. I've got one of those too. That's a fun box. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 10:24:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:24:50 -0500 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? In-Reply-To: <4737EE39.2020703@msu.edu> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> <4737752F.9050605@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4737EE39.2020703@msu.edu> Message-ID: <87061C46-F3F0-4BB2-8498-146BF97A96AF@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > If you're looking to part with the manual, let me know. > Do eeprom programmers like this typically use a standard serial > protocol to speak to the host PC, or is it usually proprietary per > manufacturer? Anyone know what software the 280 used? Remote control protocols are typically proprietary, but Data I/O's protocol (at least for the UniFamily units, not sure about the 280) is well-documented. It's important to note, however, that most standalone device programmers are designed to be used as...standalone units. Meaning, you control them from their keypad and display. If they have a serial port (and most do, the 280 definitely does) then they usually accept front-panel-initiated transfer of files (usually binary, Intel hex, Motorola S-record, and a few others) via Xmodem/ Ymodem/etc over the serial port. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 10:27:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:27:33 -0500 Subject: Old Sun diags questions (4/300 and 3/200) In-Reply-To: <6b757db0dc36d3261cc60c8048a5c0fd@valleyimplants.com> References: <6b757db0dc36d3261cc60c8048a5c0fd@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2007, at 1:18 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: >> > Couple of questions on old Sun machines (well, parts). >> > >> > On a Sun 4300 CPU board, I'm getting the >> > "EEPROM Write-Write-Read-Read test >> > error PA=0xF2000000 VA=0X00FF8000 Exp=0x0000005a Obs=0x00000000 >> > (looping)" >> > error. Looking on the Web and Usenet seems to show that this has >> > happened a couple of times, with some reference to possibly being >> > the NVRAM (although the most comprehensive posing set was in >> > German :(). This seems a bit odd, though - on my other Suns it >> > calls the NVRAM the NVRAM, so I'm wondering if this is something >> else. >> >> It's just a terminological difference. Most of those machines (if >> I recall correctly) used 2816 NVRAM chips, which are also correctly >> referred to as EEPROMs. > > Oh, so the Mostek unit isn't what this is talking about. Hmm- have > to go over the board again. > > I saw the Mostek and assumed that it was the same as the 4c/m/u > NVRAM setup . Duh, I was talking about the 3/200, which (again, if I recall correctly) used a 2816, like with most older Sun processor boards. If the 4/300 has a Mostek NVRAM chip on it, then the proof is in the pudding...I don't have one here anymore. (sniff) At any rate, though, at some point in the late-Sun3 to early-Sun4 timeframe, they switched from 2816 EEPROMs to the Mostek SRAM chips with battery backup tophats on them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 12 10:30:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:30:42 -0700 Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:02:01 -0600. <38603.209.163.133.242.1194883321.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: In article <38603.209.163.133.242.1194883321.squirrel at webmail.io.com>, "Jeff Walther" writes: > The IIe card has an actual IIe-in-a-chip on board. It plugs into an LC > slot. The "LC-slot" originated on the Mac LC, but was instantiated on > many Mac models after that. Is the "LC-slot" referring to the form factor or the bus interface? Is this a NuBus slot? > A IIe expansion card enthusiast has a very informative website up on the > topic. And I will be useless here and fail to have the URL. But the > resource exists and covers the information above to a useful level of > detail. Is this the one you're thinking about? Apple IIe Card for the Macintosh LC Frequently Asked Questions -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Nov 12 10:29:36 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:29:36 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: <200711120721.lAC7LoOC086204@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711120721.lAC7LoOC086204@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5ddf855cfd0e45a4c77b64b94c54a6d6@valleyimplants.com> On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:21 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I would love to be proven wrong on this, since it would potentially > make > my II disk archiving a lot easier, but I have never heard of such a > device > for the Mac. > > In the case of the IIe card, this was accomplished by connecting a > regular > Apple II 5.25" drive to the *card*, not the computer. AFAIK same for the DOS compatible drive (though a different card, not the //e). I think somebody (must not have been Apple) did make some sort of drive that did the necessary interface juggling to do 5.25" //-series on the Mac. I was a bit too young to remember specifics, though. Perhaps AE. Pretty sure I've seen reference to it somewhere. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 12 10:45:33 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:45:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Nov 12, 7 09:30:42 am" Message-ID: <200711121645.lACGjXlJ032468@floodgap.com> > > The IIe card has an actual IIe-in-a-chip on board. It plugs into an LC > > slot. The "LC-slot" originated on the Mac LC, but was instantiated on > > many Mac models after that. > > Is the "LC-slot" referring to the form factor or the bus interface? Of the slot? > Is this a NuBus slot? No, it's another in Apple's long line of mutually incompatible PDS slots. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The optimum committee has no members. -- Norman Augustine ------------------ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Nov 12 10:45:59 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:45:59 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: <200711120721.lAC7LoOC086204@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711120721.lAC7LoOC086204@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <78b098418fc8cb1e080071d2f4104a2e@valleyimplants.com> On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:21 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > What I meant to say is that the investor who get in turn the hobby > into a > business. Get in buy low, trade items around between other investors to > drive up the costs, sell out and find another pump and dump hobby. It > leaves > people thinking their stuff is worth money when the people with the > money > are long gone. Granted people will dig up those rarities and trade them > around so they do not get trashed, so there is a plus side to it > (things get > preserved). > There's another factor here - people like Will and Paul and Sellam (probably) don't cater to deep-pocket collectors as their primary customers. They cater to businesses who still use the machines in day-to-day operations and are happy to pay what's needed for a part so they can get it next-business-day. The other market is lawyers looking for prior art evidence. In both cases the bankroll is substantially bigger than almost any collector, so collectors get locked out through no nefarious intent of the dealers. Remember there's quite a lot of overhead in locating, buying, storing, organizing, and dealing that one part that one person will need every 5 years (or longer for the lawyers - maybe only once in 50 years, but they're willing to pay). Off of this there is a certain amount of hype-induced market pumping (lookit how much that old thing sold for! I'm gonna dump my beanie babies and invest in cawm-pew-tuhs (yes, more sophisticated certainly, but it's a fun image), but that is vapor wealth because those people don't have the support to deal to businesses and probably have no interest in doing professional lawyer supply so the investment is probably as good as shares in "Gobi Rainforest Woods Limited" > The only thing stopping me from fighting over the big boys for my > collectables is that nothing I collect would interest the big deep > pocket > collectors in the first place. Everything I like was made in the > thousands > or millions, outbid me today and I just wait for the next one, or find > it at > a garage sale for $1. I guess if I was older and used computers pre > 1980, I > might want some of the rarer systems that command money, but they just > don't > mean anything to me so I don't bother. I certainly wouldn't mind trying out a HP2100 or 3000, or an IBM mini/mainframe, but definitely same boat here - wussy micros only (unless you count the TAAC board which might be a mini). I'm a bit gunshy too, after the trouble it took to outfit my $25 VAX 4200 I'm hesitant to get into something that I don't know especially if it's pricy. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 12 10:53:53 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:53:53 -0600 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47388521.108@jbrain.com> Jason T wrote: > On Nov 11, 2007 6:55 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Admittedly, I was mulling over it too. This one is not only a real 65, it's >> apparently in mostly working order (as much as any of the extant 65s are). >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230190927853 >> > > Wow, someone did the Buy-It-Now > Can I ask what "mostly working order" implies? Does it have to be at a certain ROM level, or does certain features have to work/be present? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 12 10:58:35 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:58:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <47388521.108@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Nov 12, 7 10:53:53 am" Message-ID: <200711121658.lACGwZ9O019018@floodgap.com> > Can I ask what "mostly working order" implies? Does it have to be at a > certain ROM level, or does certain features have to work/be present? >From the screenshot, it appears that the VIC-III was operating and enough of the internal logic to load from the internal drive and run the demo slideshow. The 64 mode even works, somewhat. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If elected, I will win. -- Pat Paulsen for President ----------------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 11:01:47 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:01:47 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: <78b098418fc8cb1e080071d2f4104a2e@valleyimplants.com> References: <200711120721.lAC7LoOC086204@dewey.classiccmp.org> <78b098418fc8cb1e080071d2f4104a2e@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: > There's another factor here - people like Will and Paul and Sellam > (probably) don't cater to deep-pocket collectors as their primary > customers. I will go on record here - yes, I am a dealer, but vintage computer stuff is only a small part of my sales. If I ran the numbers, I think it would be somewhere around 5 or 6 percent. Of these, almost all are to other collectors, most on this list, lurking or not. Some are big, some are small - it does not matter, as long as I get the money. And yes, some of the Big Boys are on this list. Some even participate. Another GASP! Every so often, I do sell to a business needing a part that I just happen to have, but that really does not happen very often. -- Will, big cheese of Federal Signal and Ironworks, Inc. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 12 11:34:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:34:20 -0800 Subject: CRC question In-Reply-To: References: , <47377D99.24731.7CAA1F5@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <47381E1C.14338.A3D9EC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2007 at 7:03, dwight elvey wrote: > What are SHA hashes? I've not heard that term before. > The CRC chips I was looking at were from AMD when I > worked for Systems Industries. Now I work for AMD > but the only thing they work on today are processors. SHA = "Secure Hash Algorithm"--really a family of algorithms. The most commonly encountered are the SHA-1 group. Here's the FIPS pub detailing the whole family: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips180-2/fips180-2.pdf These are most useful when one wants to reduce the possibility of data being altered. The algorithms have a cryptographic basis, rather than a simple polynomial as in a CRC and so it's *very* difficult to modify data in such a manner as to yield the same hash as the unmodified data. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Nov 12 11:46:31 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:46:31 -0800 Subject: At risk of polluting the list with micros- IRIS Indigo adv. for free. Message-ID: <6f31851a8449f48cfe7785ddf4bf5029@valleyimplants.com> See http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16095 Looks like a R3000 model with XS-24Z, XZ, or Elan graphics Not mine, in Oregon. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 12 12:34:12 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:34:12 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com><51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com><001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game><016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game><005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <005b01c8255a$9f197830$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Commodore 65 = $5,000 > You are very wrong. The Big Boys are just as open and nice as the > average collectors. Most are happy to show off their toys, and many > will indeed trade. The Big Boys also tend to have plans for their > estates, including their expensive collections - something the average > collectors are sorely lacking. > > Of course, when someone like you whines about them, smears their > names, and somehow places your collecting philosophy above their's - > well, I would not be expecting any invites and time soon... > > -- > Will Sure some Big Boys are nice enough to show you around their collection, if you happen to meet them socially and live in their area. What would be wrong with having the top 1,000 computer rarities being spread out among 1,000 different people in different parts of the world instead of in one persons private collection 99% of people cannot go to see even if it was open to the public? When I was in highschool my friends and I used to collect coins, stamps, baseball cards, and comic books. A friend and I used to go to the local stamp and coin dealer on Saturday mornings to buy our supplies and read the Linn stamp news to see what items they had picked to explore in that issue. Sure enough when the owner was done buying or selling to the bigger collectors he would bring over a rarity for us to look at and tell us the history of the item. For a kid with little money trying to save up for college that was a very nice thing to do. These days the smaller shops are gone and the larger ones are by appointment only and you better have a good reference and a big bank account to get in. A friend in college was very big into comic books when he was young and had some rare older items he would let me look at, these days the rarities are encased in a plastic holder, graded, sealed in a tamper proof case, and are not to be opened and looked at. Give it some time and the rare vintage computers will be in the same boat as the rest of the hobby market (an investment). There have been articles in the Wall Street Journal about the vintage computer hobby. Its just nice being able to enjoy a (what used to be a geek only) hobby without having to invest a mint into it. Stamp collecting used to be a cheap hobby until is started attracting considerable attention in the 1930's (pricing guides) and became an investment in the 1980's (crazy price increases). Who's name did I smear? I mentioned Bill Gates because people know him as being very rich (and as others have pointed out he isn't even a vintage computer collector). As you mentioned the bigger collections tend to be better looked after when the person dies, so its not all bad. I just have a bad feeling when a hobby turns into an investment, and people show up just to make money. TZ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 12 12:54:01 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:54:01 -0800 Subject: At risk of polluting the list with micros- IRIS Indigo adv. for free. In-Reply-To: <6f31851a8449f48cfe7785ddf4bf5029@valleyimplants.com> References: <6f31851a8449f48cfe7785ddf4bf5029@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 9:46 AM -0800 11/12/07, Scott Quinn wrote: >See http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16095 > >Looks like a R3000 model with XS-24Z, XZ, or Elan graphics > >Not mine, in Oregon. Must remember I do not collect Unix Workstations... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trag at io.com Mon Nov 12 12:58:06 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:58:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: <200711121739.lACHdAKv095159@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711121739.lACHdAKv095159@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5137.209.163.133.242.1194893886.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:30:42 -0700 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. > In article <38603.209.163.133.242.1194883321.squirrel at webmail.io.com>, > "Jeff Walther" writes: > >> The IIe card has an actual IIe-in-a-chip on board. It plugs into an LC >> slot. The "LC-slot" originated on the Mac LC, but was instantiated on >> many Mac models after that. > > Is the "LC-slot" referring to the form factor or the bus interface? Primarily the bus interface. There may have been other Apple connectors which used the same physical connector but were wired differently. I am not aware of any, but Apple did this with other connectors. For example, the PDS connector in the IIci, IIsi and SE/30 are the same physically, but the IIci's is wired quite a bit differently, and even the IIsi and SE/30 have minor differences, though the latter doesn't stop cards from being cross-compatible. > Is this a NuBus slot? No. Apple was very fond of the Euro Mini-DIN connector in various pin numbers, but it is not the same as a NuBus slot. >> A IIe expansion card enthusiast has a very informative website up on the >> topic. > Is this the one you're thinking about? > > > Apple IIe Card for the Macintosh LC Frequently Asked Questions That's it. Anywhere that FAQ and I differ, I'm probably wrong. Same for me and Cameron's post which I saw after I wrote mine. Jeff Walther From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Nov 12 14:01:51 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:01:51 -0500 Subject: DEC sun3 gear available in Ottawa Message-ID: <200711121907.lACJ7EjY009527@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Guys, A friend of mine is cleaning his basement, and offers up some equipment, located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada. Please see: http://www.ba23.org/blog/2007/11/12/index.html#free > Free gear available for pick-up in Ottawa. Will consider shipping > if you are willing to pay packaging and shipping costs. > > I need to get this stuff out of my basement. > > - Sun 3/50 and Sun 3/160 > - MicroVAX-II in a BA123 enclosure > - DEC RL02 drives > - AlphaServer 2100 > - DECstation 3100 > - SPARCstation IPC > - VT100 Tempest > > > There will be more gear available. I will update this webpage as > I sort out the gear -- http://www.ba23.org/page0290.html -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 12 13:22:01 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:22:01 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <47326C31.8080300@oldskool.org> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> <47326C31.8080300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2007 5:53 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Unfortunately both the converters.tv units ignore the "intensity" pin of > CGA, which means that only 8 of the 16 colors can be displayed from an > IBM CGA card. :-( This is the bit (pun intended) missing from all > converters I've come across, unfortunately. I forgot about that. Many (if not all) of these boards are actually converting analog signal levels rather than digital. The most common use of these boards is vintage video games, which were often analog RGB at CGA (i.e. video) scan rates. You can usually recover the intensity bit with a small preconditioner board. If you are using multiple sources on one of these boards you are going to want to precondition the signal levels anyway rather than having to fiddle with the gain every time you change sources. A quad line driver, some resistors and capacitors should do the trick if you want quality. If you want simple (no power supply required) and are willing to live with some imprecision in color output you can skip the line driver . http://www.softwolves.pp.se/cbm/maskinvara/scart.en.html Eric From grant at stockly.com Mon Nov 12 13:53:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:53:06 -0900 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <005b01c8255a$9f197830$42aab941@game> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> <005b01c8255a$9f197830$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <0JRE00HC0SNOTS10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >at. Give it some time and the rare vintage computers will be in the same >boat as the rest of the hobby market (an investment). There have been >articles in the Wall Street Journal about the vintage computer hobby. Its >better looked after when the person dies, so its not all bad. I just have a >bad feeling when a hobby turns into an investment, and people show up just >to make money. Those two reasons are why I am proud of the my Kenbak kit project. I've been able to put out so far 12 to people are using them and experimenting. Geoff has written two funny little Cylon light programs and a fellow from the Netherlands wrote a program to calculate E. So far I have 6 confirmed fully operational units built. Most people haven't have time to play yet. : ( When Kenbaks are selling for $10,000 on ebay, I kind of get the idea that they aren't going to be touched. : ) I personally know of three vintage Kenbak's in private hands. Erik's doesn't work, but out of ALL the collectors he is probably the bravest. ; ) Without his help and detailed measurements it would not have been as accurate. Grant From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 12 14:22:11 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:22:11 -0800 Subject: Architecture vs Implementation In-Reply-To: <4733D28A.8040002@bitsavers.org> References: <4733D28A.8040002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I'm sure this has been beaten to death by now, but I need to kick the dead horse a few more times. :) On Nov 8, 2007 7:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > If a processor has 16 bit registers, 16 bit math and address > > calculation, and a 16 bit address bus, but it's ALU is only 8 bit and > > its internal data bus is 8 bits, it's an 8 bit processor. Right? > > wrong The Z80 is a 16 bit processor? > People are confusing architecture with implementation. I would argue that we are discussing implementation. (And there is also confusion between architecture and programming model). You could implement SPARC with a single AMD2901 some SRAM and lots control logic, but, IMHO, you wouldn't have a 32 bit processor when you were done. > The 360/30 /40 and /50 are all considered members of the same 32 bit > architecture, and have 8, 16 and 32 bit data paths, respectively. I don't know enough about the 360 to know what you refer to when talking about data path (ALU, CPU internal data paths, external data bus, etc.) > An 80386/SX is not considered a 16 bit processor because it has a 16 > bit data bus. I agree, but the 80386/SX is a 32 bit processor by both architecture and implementation. Multiplexing an 80386 core onto a 16 bit data bus doesn't turn it into a 16 bit implementation. If they had build the /SX using 16bit internal data paths, that would have made it into a 16 implementation, and, IMHO, a 16 bit processor. > Is a PDP-8/S a one bit processor because it implements arithmetic serially? Depending upon the details of the implementation, I might consider it to be one. Back to the MC68000, let's add some specificity. It's a 16-bit implementation of a 16-bit architecture that happens to have a 32 bit programming model available. The MC68020 is a 32-bit implementation of a 32-bit architecture with a 32 bit programming model. -- Eric From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 14:38:22 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:38:22 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <005b01c8255a$9f197830$42aab941@game> References: <200711120255.lAC2tXNq008240@floodgap.com> <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> <001e01c824e2$77e4c7b0$42aab941@game> <016e01c824e9$928cf3b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> <005b01c8255a$9f197830$42aab941@game> Message-ID: > Sure some Big Boys are nice enough to show you around their collection, if > you happen to meet them socially and live in their area. Many are here, on this list. > Give it some time and the rare vintage computers will be in the same > boat as the rest of the hobby market (an investment). Sorry, but when you learn how the antiques market works, you will see that you really are way off base. Most antiques are not very good investments, and the number of people investing in them is surprisingly small. Many have lost their shirts. > Who's name did I smear? Think about it. Think about all this. Whining gets you nowhere. It does more harm than good to the whole deal. Next... -- Will From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Nov 12 14:48:02 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:48:02 -0500 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? In-Reply-To: <87061C46-F3F0-4BB2-8498-146BF97A96AF@neurotica.com> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> <4737752F.9050605@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4737EE39.2020703@msu.edu> <87061C46-F3F0-4BB2-8498-146BF97A96AF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4738BC02.3080701@splab.cas.neu.edu> The 280 manual has a whole chapter on terminal remote control and computer remote control, especially command format and summary. They recommend PromLink (tm) to operate the 280. some of the commands are enter/exit CRC mode (computer remote control) execute command, abort command, set nulls, set family/pinout, set begin device address, set begin ram address, set block size, etc. joe heck Haven't decided if I will part with manual, but may copy some... Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 12, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> If you're looking to part with the manual, let me know. >> Do eeprom programmers like this typically use a standard serial >> protocol to speak to the host PC, or is it usually proprietary per >> manufacturer? Anyone know what software the 280 used? > > > Remote control protocols are typically proprietary, but Data I/O's > protocol (at least for the UniFamily units, not sure about the 280) is > well-documented. It's important to note, however, that most standalone > device programmers are designed to be used as...standalone units. > Meaning, you control them from their keypad and display. If they have > a serial port (and most do, the 280 definitely does) then they usually > accept front-panel-initiated transfer of files (usually binary, Intel > hex, Motorola S-record, and a few others) via Xmodem/ Ymodem/etc over > the serial port. > > -Dave > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 12 15:17:49 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:17:49 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1194902269.6116.2.camel@elric.inet> On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 01:14 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I don't know if anyone else noticed but MIT has released the source (and > > documentation) to MULTICS. The link is: > > http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/ > > > > I haven't gone through it (yet) but thought I should bring this great > > news to everyone's attention. > > > But what machines could run the that today? Anything you port it to. Seriously, I bet *someone* out there will have a crack at it. It can't be that hard, can it? Gordon From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 12 15:26:51 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:26:51 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <1194902269.6116.2.camel@elric.inet> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <1194902269.6116.2.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <4738C51B.7040609@mainecoon.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> But what machines could run the that today? > > Anything you port it to. > > Seriously, I bet *someone* out there will have a crack at it. It can't > be that hard, can it? That's an interesting question. I can't think of that many machines with a hardware ring architecture, and it's not something that can be easily faked with more traditional architectures. It would be a fairly invasive "port". Does anyone know offhand how many rings Multics needed? -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 12 15:31:05 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:31:05 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <4738C51B.7040609@mainecoon.com> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <1194902269.6116.2.camel@elric.inet> <4738C51B.7040609@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <1194903065.6116.4.camel@elric.inet> On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 13:26 -0800, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >> But what machines could run the that today? > > > > Anything you port it to. > > > > Seriously, I bet *someone* out there will have a crack at it. It can't > > be that hard, can it? > > That's an interesting question. I can't think of that many machines > with a hardware ring architecture, and it's not something that can be > easily faked with more traditional architectures. It would be a fairly > invasive "port". It pains me to say it, but you could just throw CPU horsepower and memory at the problem. Gordon From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 12 15:41:11 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:41:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <4738C51B.7040609@mainecoon.com> from Chris Kennedy at "Nov 12, 7 01:26:51 pm" Message-ID: <200711122141.lACLfBQu020842@floodgap.com> > That's an interesting question. I can't think of that many machines > with a hardware ring architecture, and it's not something that can be > easily faked with more traditional architectures. It would be a fairly > invasive "port". Probably the simplest thing would be to make a CPU emulator, and run it in that. Then you can be totally architecturally agnostic. Performance, of course, would suck. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I may have invented CtrlAltDel, but Microsoft made it popular. -- D. Bradley From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 12 15:43:48 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:43:48 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation Message-ID: <111220072143.13177.4738C9140001DC6A0000337922218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > > >> But what machines could run the that today? > > > > > > Anything you port it to. The segmentation architecture would be hard to fake. And the idea of segments is so deeply ingrained, I doubt you'd want to try. However, the x86 does seem to have the necessary segmentation structure. Unfortunately, it's only got 32-bit addresses. Even in the 60s, the Multics machines had 36. > > That's an interesting question. I can't think of that many machines > > with a hardware ring architecture, and it's not something that can be > > easily faked with more traditional architectures. It would be a fairly > > invasive "port". > > It pains me to say it, but you could just throw CPU horsepower and > memory at the problem. Yes and no. In principle, the only thing you'd have to ensure is that you gave control to the supervisor on a ring crossing. So you could make all pages not in the current ring inaccessible. On a page fault, apply the ring brackets in software and change the page tables as a result. At the very least, you'd take a performance hit. Having said that, somewhere in the back of my head, I want to say that the x86 has at least part of the mechanism already. So a port to it would be less painful than to a lot of others, except of course, for the smaller address space. Of course, I could be totally off. I'm certainly no Multics expert, and my memory of the details of the x86 segmentation are rusty at best. BLS From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 12 15:46:02 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:46:02 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <4738C51B.7040609@mainecoon.com> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <1194902269.6116.2.camel@elric.inet> <4738C51B.7040609@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20071112214601.GD11436@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chris Kennedy once stated: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >> But what machines could run the that today? > > > > Anything you port it to. > > > > Seriously, I bet *someone* out there will have a crack at it. It can't > > be that hard, can it? > > That's an interesting question. I can't think of that many machines > with a hardware ring architecture, I can think of several thousand that have been made over the past decade, all made with the Intel x86 architecture. It even has the segments that Multics used. Seems like a perfect match to me. -spc (Maybe Multics was just a bit early?) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 15:56:32 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:56:32 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <1194903065.6116.4.camel@elric.inet> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <1194902269.6116.2.camel@elric.inet> <4738C51B.7040609@mainecoon.com> <1194903065.6116.4.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: > It pains me to say it, but you could just throw CPU horsepower and > memory at the problem. Unisys has basically done this with great success. -- Will From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 12 15:57:06 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:57:06 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <20071112214601.GD11436@brevard.conman.org> References: <47380644.70701@shiresoft.com> <47380B5B.6060301@jetnet.ab.ca> <1194902269.6116.2.camel@elric.inet> <4738C51B.7040609@mainecoon.com> <20071112214601.GD11436@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4738CC32.3080003@mainecoon.com> Sean Conner wrote: > I can think of several thousand that have been made over the past decade, > all made with the Intel x86 architecture. It even has the segments that > Multics used. Seems like a perfect match to me. Hence my question regarding the number of rings used by Multics. Just because there's multiple contexts doesn't mean that there's _enough_ of them. Anyone got an DG Eagle (MV) family machine lying around? It has eight honest-to-goodness rings and hardware ring call support. Only 32 bits, though... -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 12 15:57:37 2007 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:57:37 -0000 Subject: DEC sun3 gear available in Ottawa In-Reply-To: <200711121907.lACJ7EjY009527@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200711121907.lACJ7EjY009527@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <002401c82577$0b6e40d0$224ac270$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> ----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: 12 November 2007 20:02 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DEC sun3 gear available in Ottawa Hi Guys, A friend of mine is cleaning his basement, and offers up some equipment, located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada. Please see: http://www.ba23.org/blog/2007/11/12/index.html#free > Free gear available for pick-up in Ottawa. Will consider shipping > if you are willing to pay packaging and shipping costs. > > I need to get this stuff out of my basement. > > - Sun 3/50 and Sun 3/160 > - MicroVAX-II in a BA123 enclosure > - DEC RL02 drives > - AlphaServer 2100 > - DECstation 3100 > - SPARCstation IPC > - VT100 Tempest > > > There will be more gear available. I will update this webpage as > I sort out the gear -- http://www.ba23.org/page0290.html -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html If I could afford the shipping I think I would have the whole MicroVAX II, but it is going to be too much to ship that to the UK. Would you be prepared to ship the TK50 from the MicroVAX-II (I am not too familiar at the hardware level but I think I would also need the controller) to the UK? If so how much would it be? Regards Robert Jarratt PS By pure coincidence I will be visiting Toronto next week for 2 weeks, how far is that from Ottawa? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 12 16:00:04 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:00:04 +0000 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1194904804.6116.12.camel@elric.inet> On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 04:39 -0700, Richard wrote: > To be honest, I don't respect the people who whine about what other > people do with their collection. Mmm. I'm inclined to agree, but I hate seeing stuff not being used, *properly* used and loved for its function as well as its form. I have a few old analogue synthesizers, one of which requires two sets of six completely unobtainable chips. Well, truth be told, they pop up in onesy-twoesy quantities on eBay, where if you're not careful the chip collectors snaffle them. And you already know how much I dislike chip collectors... Back to the synth. A guy I know on another list said "Oh you should sample it and then put it away somewhere, if one of the chips goes you might never get a replacement and it would never work again, don't play it, you'll wear out the rare chips" kind of thing. "Stuff that", says I, "if an unobtainable part goes I'll *make* a new one if I have to, or an equivalent, and I'll *enjoy* it while it does work." So, no, I don't like to tell other people what to do with their collections. But I really do hate trailer queens. To avoid going even more OT and offending Jay's sensibilities, I won't post the link to the James May clip about model trains. Tapping the appropriate keywords into YouTube's search will bring it forth. Gordon From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 12 16:06:04 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:06:04 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation Message-ID: <111220072206.24441.4738CE4C00016ABC00005F7922218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: Chris Kennedy > > Sean Conner wrote: > > > I can think of several thousand that have been made over the past decade, > > all made with the Intel x86 architecture. It even has the segments that > > Multics used. Seems like a perfect match to me. > > Hence my question regarding the number of rings used by Multics. Just > because there's multiple contexts doesn't mean that there's _enough_ of > them. >From multicians.org: Although there were 64 rings (an illusion created by software) on GE 645 Multics, there are 8 rings, supported in hardware, on the Honeywell 6180 in its various models. BLS From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 12 16:12:28 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:12:28 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <200711122141.lACLfBQu020842@floodgap.com> References: <200711122141.lACLfBQu020842@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 1:41 PM -0800 11/12/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > That's an interesting question. I can't think of that many machines >> with a hardware ring architecture, and it's not something that can be >> easily faked with more traditional architectures. It would be a fairly >> invasive "port". > >Probably the simplest thing would be to make a CPU emulator, and run it in >that. Then you can be totally architecturally agnostic. > >Performance, of course, would suck. Why on earth would performance suck? The original hardware was dog slow, by todays standards. Shoot the DPS-8's I worked on in the early 90's they were dog slow, their main advantage was I/O. The I/O on a full blown system is where a modern system might have emulation problems, still, who is going to want to emulate rows of disks and tape drives. The various PDP-10 emulators have shown that you can get decent performance out of a 32-bit CPU running a 36-bit emulator. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 12 16:17:22 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:17:22 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <111220072206.24441.4738CE4C00016ABC00005F7922218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <111220072206.24441.4738CE4C00016ABC00005F7922218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <4738D0F2.3080601@mainecoon.com> Brian L. Stuart wrote: >>From multicians.org: > Although there were 64 rings (an illusion created by software) on > GE 645 Multics, there are 8 rings, supported in hardware, on the > Honeywell 6180 in its various models. As opposed to what? Four on the X86? The original question remains, how many rings does Multics need? Just because eight were provided by hardware doesn't mean they were all used. An emulator rather than port seems like a far better approach all the time. Sure, you wouldn't be able to hang 16 tape drives and 256 disks off of it, but then why would you want to? -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 12 16:19:23 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:19:23 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation Message-ID: <111220072219.10094.4738D16B00086F5C0000276E22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: Chris Kennedy > > Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > >>From multicians.org: > > Although there were 64 rings (an illusion created by software) on > > GE 645 Multics, there are 8 rings, supported in hardware, on the > > Honeywell 6180 in its various models. > > As opposed to what? Four on the X86? > > The original question remains, how many rings does Multics need? Just > because eight were provided by hardware doesn't mean they were all used. For the most part, they used 0-4. I don't think you'd actually need 5-7. BLS From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 16:21:52 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:21:52 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <111220072143.13177.4738C9140001DC6A0000337922218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <111220072143.13177.4738C9140001DC6A0000337922218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <4738D200.5020207@gmail.com> Brian L. Stuart wrote: >>>>> But what machines could run the that today? >>>> Anything you port it to. > > The segmentation architecture would be hard to fake. And > the idea of segments is so deeply ingrained, I doubt you'd > want to try. However, the x86 does seem to have the necessary > segmentation structure. Unfortunately, it's only got 32-bit > addresses. Even in the 60s, the Multics machines had 36. Pardon my ignorance, but were there any places where the top four bits were actually used? I mean, I don't believe there was a machine back then capable of running MULTICS and also having more than 8Gb primary storage. Wouldn't it be possible to fake it by just chopping off the four most-significant bits and using the remaining 32? Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 12 16:24:45 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:24:45 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) Message-ID: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> > The I/O > on a full blown system is where a modern system might have emulation > problems This is exactly where simulation has been hung up for years. The mass storage and terminal system is complex, with microcoded controllers for tape and disk and dedicated front end processors for terminal/network I/O. KL10 simulation is a cakewalk compared to this (and the KL10 was no small feat of programming). I've dug up some additional information Olin Siebert didn't have, but there is still a lot of internal Honeywell HW/SW documentation on the I/O that hasn't been found. This whole issue has been bounced around on the Multics mailing list and alt.os.multics for years. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 12 16:27:35 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:27:35 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation Message-ID: <111220072227.4090.4738D3570002967600000FFA22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: Sridhar Ayengar > > Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > segmentation structure. Unfortunately, it's only got 32-bit > > addresses. Even in the 60s, the Multics machines had 36. > > Pardon my ignorance, but were there any places where the top four bits > were actually used? I mean, I don't believe there was a machine back > then capable of running MULTICS and also having more than 8Gb primary > storage. Wouldn't it be possible to fake it by just chopping off the > four most-significant bits and using the remaining 32? It's the virtual addresses you really care about. So the limit of physical memory is really a diffent issue. The address was used in 2 18-bit parts. The upper part was the segment number and the lower the offset into the segment. That meant segments could be no more the 256K and you could have no more than 256K of them. Because there was a one-to-one correspondence between files and segments, that would have limited files to 256K. They did some "stuff" to get around that, but I don't think it's what you'd do if you were starting from scratch, or maybe even doing a fresh port. If you divided the 32-bit address into a 14-bit segment number and 18-bit offset, then you could keep the same segment size and the only limit would be that a process could use no more than 16K segments. All in all, it'd be a whole lot more fun to use a 64-bit machine and divide it into 32 and 32. BLS From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 12 16:29:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:29:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 12, 7 02:12:28 pm" Message-ID: <200711122229.lACMTm5m011280@floodgap.com> > > Probably the simplest thing would be to make a CPU emulator, and run it in > > that. Then you can be totally architecturally agnostic. > > > > Performance, of course, would suck. > > Why on earth would performance suck? The original hardware was dog > slow, by todays standards. Well, that's what I mean. For 'suck' it would require considerably more cycles per emulated instruction. On today's hardware it would scream, but remember that you're talking to someone who emulates a 6502 on a 6502 :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize. -- Steven Wright ------------------------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 12 16:33:41 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:33:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com>, <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> <473738D4.27622.6BE0235@cclist.sydex.com> <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 11 Nov 2007 at 17:11, Jason T wrote: > > > >> Has anyone put the audio file online of the demo tape? > > > > Found it: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker.htm > > I was going to ask you why it cracked you up until I heard the > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker4-text2speech.wav example > -- holy crud, I couldn't understand a single word! I know / work with some people who talk that poorly. "wwhoo wow wooo ooom wooowowo..." -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 12 16:34:42 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:34:42 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <111220072227.4090.4738D3570002967600000FFA22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <111220072227.4090.4738D3570002967600000FFA22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <4738D502.9010108@mainecoon.com> Brian L. Stuart wrote: > The address was used in 2 18-bit parts. The upper part was the > segment number and the lower the offset into the segment. That meant > segments could be no more the 256K and you could have no more than > 256K of them. Because there was a one-to-one correspondence between > files and segments, that would have limited files to 256K. 256K *words* as I recall, or 1MB worth of nine-bit bytes. > They did some "stuff" to get around that, The dread multi-segment files. Not terribly well supported as I recall. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 17:14:08 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:14:08 -0600 Subject: DEC sun3 gear available in Ottawa In-Reply-To: <200711121907.lACJ7EjY009527@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200711121907.lACJ7EjY009527@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <51ea77730711121514p59f3f9b5h6dc4ecc9ec3d9ca1@mail.gmail.com> On 11/12/07, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > A friend of mine is cleaning his basement, and offers up some > equipment, located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada. Please see: As good an excuse for a road trip as this stuff would be, I think a previous thread covered the troubles involved in getting back over the border with vintage gear. Not worth the risk? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 12 17:29:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:29:59 -0700 Subject: 6502 VS 6502 In-Reply-To: <200711122229.lACMTm5m011280@floodgap.com> References: <200711122229.lACMTm5m011280@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4738E1F7.1080608@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Well, that's what I mean. For 'suck' it would require considerably more > cycles per emulated instruction. On today's hardware it would scream, > but remember that you're talking to someone who emulates a 6502 on a 6502 :) Why? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 12 17:33:31 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:33:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6502 VS 6502 In-Reply-To: <4738E1F7.1080608@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Nov 12, 7 04:29:59 pm" Message-ID: <200711122333.lACNXVQB010434@floodgap.com> > > Well, that's what I mean. For 'suck' it would require considerably more > > cycles per emulated instruction. On today's hardware it would scream, > > but remember that you're talking to someone who emulates a 6502 on a 6502 :) > Why? http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/kim-1/emu.html Eventually I'll work on another version of this and add some new stuff. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Flat text is just *never* what you want. -- stephen p spackman ------------- From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 12 17:33:59 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:33:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <926668.58454.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Sounds to me like a drunken version of Prof. Stephen Hawkins old speech thingy. I believe he got a more modern one a few years ago. My dad has seen him a couple of times in Cambridge (UK) - we live 5 miles from the outskirts of the city. Anyway, about the sample... I thought I caught the odd word here and there, but it could just be my imagination. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Jim Leonard wrote: Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Nov 2007 at 17:11, Jason T wrote: > >> Has anyone put the audio file online of the demo tape? > > Found it: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker.htm I was going to ask you why it cracked you up until I heard the http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker4-text2speech.wav example -- holy crud, I couldn't understand a single word! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 17:39:05 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:39:05 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a6ced79ae0a97f4a308851cdbfc34c2@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2007, at 6:55 AM, Richard wrote: >> I don't know if anyone else noticed but MIT has released the source >> (and >> documentation) to MULTICS. The link is: >> http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/ > > Very interesting! It looks like most of MULTICS was written in PL/1? Yep. I got the sources about two years ago and have dug through them a fair bit, as I've done a little bit of PL/I. It'd be pretty difficult to port it to a new architecture, but not impossible. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 12 17:41:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:41:39 -0700 Subject: 6502 VS 6502 In-Reply-To: <200711122333.lACNXVQB010434@floodgap.com> References: <200711122333.lACNXVQB010434@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4738E4B3.1050205@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Well, that's what I mean. For 'suck' it would require considerably more >>> cycles per emulated instruction. On today's hardware it would scream, >>> but remember that you're talking to someone who emulates a 6502 on a 6502 :) > >> Why? > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/kim-1/emu.html > > Eventually I'll work on another version of this and add some new stuff. Neat! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 17:27:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:27:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 12, 7 00:37:27 am Message-ID: > Likewise, it may come to a shock to many of the people on this list > (but it should not), but the collectors with the deep pockets are > generally the BEST collectors. They are the ones that know how to take The counter-argument to that is that if such a person considers $5k to be 'small change' then he may not worry too much about losing it. Whereas somebody who is poorer will spend $100 on a machine and look after it because every cent matters. I've seen it work both ways... > care of the things they spent a bundle of money on - proper shipping, > proper storage, proper use. They generally do not have their > collections arranged as stacks in the spare room, but as properly > displayed artifacts. And GASP, yes, they actually use them as well! You've made this sort of comment before, and I have no problem believing that you know collectors who act in this way. Conversery, I know of collectors who buy mildly rare stuff (the HP9100 is a favourite), then never allow it to be turned on, never allow anyone to press the keys, and certainly never open it up [1]. So I think perhaps it would be more reasonable to say there's little, if any, correleation between how much a collector generally pays for a machine and whether he uses it or not. [1] I have a freind who was likewise interested in old HP desktops. He knew this chap woh had the HP9100 and who would never allow it to be turned on. When I met the (first-mentioned) friend, I dug out one of my 9100s, not only powered it up and let him try it but also took it to bits and expalined the internals. That's why I have the machine after all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 17:20:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:20:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <003a01c824ea$fd2819b0$42aab941@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Nov 12, 7 00:15:06 am Message-ID: > People might think I am cheap, but every cent I put into my collection I > consider gone forever. I think investing in hobbies is a scam, a few people \begin{aol} Me too! \end{aol} I have never bought a classic computer (or anything else for that matter) with the idea that in years time I'll sell it and get more money back. And although I have some machines that probably are quite valuable, I have no intention of selling them. I buy stuff because I want to tinker with it, restore it, learn how it works, and so on. Maybe even use it for the original purpose. That's the fun part of the hobby to me. A few montyhs back I bought a amchine on E-bay and it was damaged in transit (it must have had a real know, it was well-packed and was an HP...). The one thing I refused to do was return it for a refund. As I said 'you can't hack banknotes'. The machine, even in the condition it was in [1] was worth a lot to me. [1] The case looked a wreck, but the PCBs and CRT were fine. There's one small electrical fault in the PSU, nothing to do with the fall. And it has a HPL ROM board in it, which is probably worth as mcuh as I paid for the whole thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 17:35:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:35:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <005101c824f3$d6e1bc30$42aab941@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Nov 12, 7 01:18:27 am Message-ID: > The only thing stopping me from fighting over the big boys for my > collectables is that nothing I collect would interest the big deep pocket > collectors in the first place. Everything I like was made in the thousands THere are one or two things I'd like to get -- to take apart and investigate -- that are somewhat rare, or which have a 'collector interest' and thus go for high prices. OK, I'm not going to find those, but there are plenty of other machines I _can_ afford and which are also interestign. > If Bill Gates wanted the most complete collection of vintage computers in > existence all he has to do is hand Sellam a credit card, and one of his THis assumes Sellam would sell. I know for a fact that I have some machines that I wouldn't sell no matter how much you offered me. As I said before 'yuo can't hack banknotes' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 17:09:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:09:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 11, 7 02:39:26 pm Message-ID: > I suspect they're being purchased by dealers. I'd like one, but > haven't been willing to shell out the $$$'s. I would have thought most dealers would only pay top dollar for something if they already have a market for it (it would be very unwise to speculate on something like this, and dealers who stay in business are not unwise). So presumably there is a market for them somewhere. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 12 17:57:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:57:15 -0700 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:33:59 +0000. <926668.58454.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <926668.58454.qm at web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, Andrew Burton writes: > Anyway, about the sample... > I thought I caught the odd word here and there, but it could just be my imagi nation. It took me a while until I figured out it was speech'ing the Gettysburg Address. > I was going to ask you why it cracked you up until I heard the > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker4-text2speech.wav example > -- holy crud, I couldn't understand a single word! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 12 18:00:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:00:09 -0700 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:27:42 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > [...] That's why I have the machine after all. Yes, that's why *you* have the machine. Where the snobbery comes in is when you poo-poo the reasons why *other* people have their machines, just like you did in this post. This attitude comes up over and over again in your posts, Tony and it really detracts from them. Just because someone does something different from you, doesn't make your way better and their way lesser. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 12 18:02:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:02:49 -0700 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <1a6ced79ae0a97f4a308851cdbfc34c2@neurotica.com> References: <1a6ced79ae0a97f4a308851cdbfc34c2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4738E9A9.4000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Very interesting! It looks like most of MULTICS was written in PL/1? > > Yep. I got the sources about two years ago and have dug through them > a fair bit, as I've done a little bit of PL/I. It'd be pretty difficult > to port it to a new architecture, but not impossible. The case of we have SOURCE but *No Compiler* :( I forgot that was the time of kitchen-sink compilers - compile all sorts of data types. > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 18:07:18 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:07:18 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <4738E9A9.4000006@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1a6ced79ae0a97f4a308851cdbfc34c2@neurotica.com> <4738E9A9.4000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2007, at 7:02 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> Very interesting! It looks like most of MULTICS was written in PL/1? >> Yep. I got the sources about two years ago and have dug through >> them a fair bit, as I've done a little bit of PL/I. It'd be pretty >> difficult to port it to a new architecture, but not impossible. > > The case of we have SOURCE but *No Compiler* :( > I forgot that was the time of kitchen-sink compilers - compile all > sorts > of data types. I had a PL/I compiler for CP/M years ago. I have no idea what happened to those disks. I can see writing a PL/I front-end for GCC. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 12 18:22:19 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:22:19 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 References: Message-ID: <010301c8258b$413fef10$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 6:35 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 65 = $5,000 > > If Bill Gates wanted the most complete collection of vintage computers in > > existence all he has to do is hand Sellam a credit card, and one of his > > THis assumes Sellam would sell. I know for a fact that I have some > machines that I wouldn't sell no matter how much you offered me. As I > said before 'yuo can't hack banknotes' > > -tony I never meant to imply Sellam would sell his machine(s), but he seems resourceful and knowledgeable enough to place a buyer with a seller so all parties are happy with a deal. From grant at stockly.com Mon Nov 12 18:25:53 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:25:53 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRE001199RY37I8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRE001199RY37I8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JRF00G2D5B7IYC0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Wow, a lot to go over here... Rich, if you have any problems with your drive I might be able to help you after this exercise! : ) >Data is comming from the disk, however it's not readable. Possible >reasons: > > NOISE, ground the drive, insure it has good power that the > system case and it's grounds are common. Also common > error is long drive cables (stay short for now) and cables > (and drives) that get near CRTs. I'm hooking the 3.5" drive power cable directly to the output of the 7805 on the tarbell, which is getting its power from an 8v switching power supply. The power is nice and steady at 4.95v. The only thing I haven't done is made sure the case is grounded. Some drives had jumpers for that, but mine doesn't. So it could be either way. > Internal: 1771 requires a data seperator to recover clock and > nice(cleaned up some) read data. The common circuits > are oneshots and PLLs. Tarbel used oneshots. Generally > they work well enough if set right. The tarbell card I have doesn't have any one shots for data separation. The read data line goes into a L74 (Dual D Edge Triggered Flip Flop), then goes into a LS175 (Quad D Type Flip Flop with Direct Clear). There are two LS161 (Synchronous 4 Bit Binary Counter) that are hooked up to parts of the LS175. There are is a XOR gate and two NAND gates. I'm not sure what is going on at the moment, does it seem like that pile of parts could be implementing a PLL? I would think a PLL would be more complex than that. I'll at least make sure all of the edges match up (Read data vs separated clock and data) I hope I find something obvious. I should at least see a difference between the two tarbell cards (reliably bad vs somewhat bad). I have a 4FDC Cromemco? It uses a 1771. I might be able to use the tarbell driver to boot off of that. Is anything known about that card as far as being better or worse? > LOGIC: problem with read/wait hardware not working or possible > data path corruption. The two 3.5" drives and the 5.25" drive I have don't do anything with the ready/disk change line at all. BUT, I know the Sony 3.5" drive doesn't generate index pulses until the drive speeds up (I think that is what its doing). With a TEAC 235HF drive it takes 694.053ms for the drive to generate sector pulses AFTER the drive was given a "Motor Enable" signal. Even though the head was NOT at track 00, the drive didn't signal that status until 491.221ms after given a "Motor Enable". So the drive seemed to spin the motor up, tell the controller it was not at 0, and then start issuing index pulses. That is probably how the 3.5" disk is getting away without a ready line. The older drives probably generated index pulses regardless of if the drive is ready or not. These newer drives with more brains must not make index pulses unless they are ready. >your shotgunning. I've seen this for 30+ years. Doesn't work, swap >out the big hairy chip as they must be flaky or why else put it in a >socket? Rare if ever is that the case. On my second kenbak build I had a problem. First I tested all of the ICs (digital only) but didn't find any problems so I started swapping them all. About 3 hours after testing it started working, but then stopped. I found a cold solder joint. Pushing around and bending the boad "fixed" it. : ) So I fixed the joint and reinstalled all of the old chips. : ) The main reason I swapped the 1771 was because I think I read somewhere that its a very static sensitive part and of all of them the most likely to go out... >FYI: certain brands of sockets of the side wipe style tend to fatigue >with insertion/removeal and some do it over time leading to failures >where the chips are 100% good but nothing works and may be flakey >if wiggled or moved. I will replace the sockets with machine pin sockets. >DD or HD with tarbel?????? The tarbell is treating the 3.5" disk drive as that TM100 tandon SSSD drive. The data rate recorded to the drive is 8.07us per bit. I'm getting 123916 bits a second, which doesn't seem to match anything I remember... >HD media is incompatable in every way with older drives and lower >data rates. My drive is a new from sony. I've made formatted and written to HD disks with the HD hole covered. This same drive reading the same disks does not always read. I don't know if its the tarbell's fault or not. >Does the read loop test a status bit or hang/wait on read? The silly tarbell issues a "IN" to a "wait" port and the tarbell keeps it in a wait state until the 1771 is good and ready. Kind of makes debugging hard if the tarbell doesn't decide to stop waiting. ; ) >can you supply the sector read code? ( should be fairly short) The datasheet for the 1771 says "Upon receipt of the Read command, the head is loaded, the BUSY status bit set, and when an ID field is encountered that has the correct track number, correct sector number, and correct CRC, the data field is presnted to the computer." Is that the sector read code you are talking about? One of those first bytes? The data sheet says that the 1771 is capable of reading the entire track as one big sector. Maybe I should try to make a routine to do that. I don't know of any other way to get that code since it isn't part of a normal read. > >The drive, tarbell, and boot disks were mailed to me from a fellow > >enthusiast. He made all of the modifications, made the disks, > >etc. He has tested the setup in an IMSAI (kind of) with my (kit) > >CPU, a SSM 8080, and a ZPU at 2MHz. > >Kind of and exactly are differnt things. At least we both have a ZPU and both have one with the 2MHz switch. So that eliminates the CPU card one shots from the reliability question. Right? > > 4. With the Altair CPU and the Imsai front panel the Tarbell > >will boot after you push reset and then push the run switch. > >Says the MITS FP is causing some pain. FP? >The 8t97s worked fine for me. It has 8224? your mod or 8800B? That was part of a quote from him. Its not my board. I do have pictures at: http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325 Its a regular Rev 0 card with some modifications. The biggest modification is the lack of one shots. It uses an 8224. I imagine he got this info from a vintage place somewhere because his work looks very well planned out. Or maybe he just planned it out good! >The only media that should go in that drive is the brown SD/DD floppies. >If the media was written on a 96tpi drive the noise and jitter _will_ >be higher due to track width differences. IF the FDC oneshots are >not quite on that makes a huge differnence. I've read that HD (1.44MB 3.5") disks with tape over the HD hole aren't exactly a DD disk. Something about the track width being narrower because of the smaller head in an HD drive? BUT, the DD (720k 3.5") disks were formatted to 40 tracks 18 sectors, 128 bytes a sector using an HD drive. So the DD disks wouldn't have a wide track width to begin with. Are there really physical media differences between DD and HD that would keep a HD disk from being used as a DD disk when in a HD drive? The HD drive should be able to read the narrow track written on what it thinks is a DD disk, right? Is the magnetic material of an HD disk significantly different? Most of the information I've read about mixing media is in reference to DD disks being written in an HD drive and then becoming unreliable in a DD drive. I've also heard about people who add holes to disks to make a DD disk an HD disk, which probably works for them better than my tarbell works for me... : ) Thanks! Grant From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Nov 12 18:57:23 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:57:23 -0800 Subject: More pollution- Onyx (1) in California, also free Message-ID: <6ea1cb67133c86b3c3ff66ae9570799f@valleyimplants.com> http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16005 Don't know if he'll ship, but move fast if you're interested. From steve at radiorobots.com Mon Nov 12 20:50:18 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:50:18 -0500 Subject: Docs for Chipcom ONline System Concentrator and Online NCS Message-ID: <473910EA.3080606@radiorobots.com> Hi, Trying to re-create, at least on paper, a system I used in the early '90s. Looking for docs for Chipcom ONline concentrator and NCS. Thanks, Steve From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 13 00:23:21 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:23:21 -0500 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? Message-ID: <01C82593.F9619000@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message(s): Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:25:13 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: On 11 Nov 2007 at 20:49, Jim Leonard wrote: > The digitized examples (Kennedy, etc.) weren't that much better > either... I wonder, with modern computers making the FFT analysis, could > the computalker produce intelligible output? I can only assume that the > original analysis was limited by the speed of its day. I don't know--the CT was a strange board. I do recall at one point having a Votrax Type'n'Talk RS-232 text-to-speech box installed on a terminal. To this day, I still say "ok" (rhymes with "sock")... ;) Cheers, Chuck -----------------Reply; Same here; one of the Cromemcos had a Votrax on a dedicated port that announced the user's name and port no. when he/she logged in, and for many years I've had a PC set up with an RS-232 speech card that announces the caller's name and number when my phone rings, as well as logging the call. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 13 00:13:48 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:13:48 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question Message-ID: <01C82593.F7E72500@MSE_D03> ---------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:51:09 -0500 From: Allison Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <0JRD004G7656LL73 at vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:33:20 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" >I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a >relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally >well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image >(if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not >even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, >although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. Different FDC WILL require a different bios. Same for SERIAL IO. Allison -----------Reply: I think you might have misunderstood, Allison; sounds like you thought I was talking about replacing an FDC with one other than what the BIOS is configured for; obviously that will require mods to the BIOS. What I was responding to was a previous post that suggested replacing an 8" drive with a 5 1/4" HD drive might require mods to the BIOS, and I just wanted to mention that this is not the case with a Cromemco 16/64FDC, to which a TM848 and a JU475 appear identical as long as the jumpers on the 5 1/4 drive are set correctly and it supplies /READY, and that this may also apply to some other controllers. Also, if the controller has both 8" and 5 1/4 connectors and they are effectively in parallel as they are on the Cromemco, you may not even need a 50<>34 pin adapter cable. Nevertheless, controllers meant for some of the older, non-'standard' 8" drives probably will require changes to the BIOS, and likely also hardware mods. mike From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Nov 12 23:43:27 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:43:27 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: References: <1a6ced79ae0a97f4a308851cdbfc34c2@neurotica.com> <4738E9A9.4000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4739397F.5060905@msm.umr.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > > I had a PL/I compiler for CP/M years ago. I have no idea what > happened to those disks. I can see writing a PL/I front-end for GCC. > > see http://pl1gcc.sourceforge.net/ This package already parses multics pl1. It does not address generating any code from the pl1 input at this time, only the parsing problem. As Al K already pointed out it will take more than this to get multics running. Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 12 23:51:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:51:14 -0600 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744@mail.gmail.com>, <47371333.5566.62B07C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <51ea77730711111511i4a547b51r3759396e27893c39@mail.gmail.com> <473738D4.27622.6BE0235@cclist.sydex.com> <4737BF26.4090804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47393B52.2000609@oldskool.org> David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 11 Nov 2007 at 17:11, Jason T wrote: >>> >>>> Has anyone put the audio file online of the demo tape? >>> Found it: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker.htm >> I was going to ask you why it cracked you up until I heard the >> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computalker4-text2speech.wav example >> -- holy crud, I couldn't understand a single word! > > I know / work with some people who talk that poorly. I found some more examples of the DECTalk, as well as some other examples (the Vodor is especially interesting, being controlled by humans): http://festvox.org/history/klatt.html -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 13 00:21:54 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:21:54 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 12 November 2007 17:24, Al Kossow wrote: > > The I/O on a full blown system is where a modern system might have > > emulation problems > > This is exactly where simulation has been hung up for years. The mass > storage and terminal system is complex, with microcoded controllers for > tape and disk and dedicated front end processors for terminal/network I/O. This sort of thing is exactly the area where I'm fuzziest when it comes to any sort of a real understanding of big iron. Aside from seeing references to such stuff from time to time, I really don't have a clue as to why you'd _want_ something like a separate dedicated processor to handle I/O, for one example. Or mass storage. Or whatever. And I really don't have that much of a handle on how the architecture of those sorts of machines differs from the micros I'm familiar with. Even that bit of time I got to spend with the Heath H11 was very alien to the rest of what I'm familiar with. I realize that I'll never get as familiar with some of this stuff as some of you guys that have actually worked with it, but can any of you point me toward some resources that might let me understand some of it better than I do now? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Nov 13 00:58:42 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:58:42 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47394B22.7060309@msm.umr.edu> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 12 November 2007 17:24, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > The I/O on a full blown system is where a modern system might have >> > emulation problems >> >> This is exactly where simulation has been hung up for years. The mass >> storage and terminal system is complex, with microcoded controllers for >> tape and disk and dedicated front end processors for terminal/network I/O. >> > > This sort of thing is exactly the area where I'm fuzziest when it comes to any > sort of a real understanding of big iron. Aside from seeing references to > such stuff from time to time, I really don't have a clue as to why you'd > _want_ something like a separate dedicated processor to handle I/O, for one > example. The Multics system was designed to be scaled to very large numbers of processors and thousands of users. It was recognized that all of the tasks to handle the disk i/o which was very important to performance need not all go thru the processors in all cases. Multics was a virtual memory system. The nature of this sort of system was researched by students at MIT and ideas to enhance performance showed that a lot of the activities could be carried out by subsystems which were dedicated to just the specific task of moving data to and from the memory. Early systems also had three level storage systems which incorporated a swapping drum to allow the same performance of a large amount of core memory w/o having the actual core available by swapping user spaces to the drum. Disk was sufficiently fast to allow the virtual memory approach to start to be used in a timesharing system, but not fast enough to match the drum storage performance. When the system I worked on was configured the threshold was crossed and the USL Multics system was configured with no drum and a large (1 or 2mb I think) or memory rather than a drum. > Or mass storage. Or whatever. The communications front end handled a lot of the mundane tasks of interfacing with terminals and transmitted in streams of character data to and from the terminal rather than dealing with character transfers. > And I really don't have that much > of a handle on how the architecture of those sorts of machines differs from > the micros I'm familiar with. Even that bit of time I got to spend with the > Heath H11 was very alien to the rest of what I'm familiar with. > > I realize that I'll never get as familiar with some of this stuff as some of > you guys that have actually worked with it, but can any of you point me > toward some resources that might let me understand some of it better than I > do now? > C. Gordon Bell's books are a good place to start. One oriented towards DEC systems is at http://research.microsoft.com/~GBell/CGB%20Files/Computer%20Engineering%207809%20c.pdf This book which is online covers all computers for the time it was published and is very useful to read. http://research.microsoft.com/~GBell/CGB%20Files/Computer%20Structures%20Principles%20and%20Examples%201982%20ng%20c.pdf Also on that site is a listing of computer companies he compiled which is very useful if you can't quite think of the name of the computer company you have a part for. (off the subject but useful) http://research.microsoft.com/~GBell/CGB%20Files/91_US_minicomputer_companies_1960-1982+44_minisupers_superminis_scalables_1983-1995.htm I find his web site is useful in general to pour over for reading. The links above are from books he has had put online since going to work for Microsoft. http://research.microsoft.com/~GBell/ From mike at ambientdesign.com Mon Nov 12 03:47:09 2007 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:47:09 +1300 Subject: VCFX Photos In-Reply-To: <47381D74.8040206@yahoo.co.uk> References: <51ea77730711111254sd2df118y8dc99c2b6113e366@mail.gmail.com> <428682.28867.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <51ea77730711111401k6d976bfdne41ada001b817dee@mail.gmail.com> <47378917.7000201@yahoo.co.uk><4737E71B.A05F84A@cs.ubc.ca> <1194852522.23248.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> <47381D74.8040206@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1FC134AF2524472B91F54861BB1107C9@fluke> > Is it at MOTAT? Unfortunately I never saw it when I was there - maybe it > was all in storage then :( Certainly looks like the one in the period > photos that I was looking at, anyway. It is at MOTAT. I saw it a couple of weeks ago, as part of the computer collection there. The display was a bit chaotic, but definitely still very interesting. There's an IBM mainframe (which can be fiddled with, though it's not running), lots of micros etc. Apples, IBMs, DECs, Commodores. Video presentations, too. I would have liked to spend longer there, but I was with people who weren't particularly interested, so... One thing though - from the website (www.motat.org.nz) : " Entry to 'Machines That Count - From Abacus to Internet' comes as part of your MOTAT admission fee. Exhibition open until early 2008." So, if anyone wants to see it, they'll have to do it soon. I don't think the collection actually belongs to the museum, so it's probably a once-only thing. > That'll be why I didn't see it then (assuming it is MOTAT). Shame. Their > Strowger exchange was darn impressive though (and I spent ages staring > into the mercury arc rectifier which was part of their tram system :-) > Still, it's an excuse to go back again... :-) The whole place is definitely worthwhile really, for anyone interested in old technology. The vintage computer collection is fascinating, but there's a lot more to see as well, if you need to justify it! If anyone wants to go, let me know, I'll tag along (living ten minutes away from it, I might as well). Mike. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 12 07:07:22 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:07:22 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JRE001199RY37I8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:43:21 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Allison, thanks a lot for the detailed response! A lot of that info >can be used to help other people too! > >I've written this e-mail from the "bottom up", so some things may >seem out of order in the time line. > >I think that I'm to the point where I've narrowed the problem down to >inside the tarbell card, but I don't think the problem is the >1771. Any further hints are well appreciated. : ) I've seen bad 1771s out of the box (WD was not allways a qualaity house) but I've never seeen one fail in service excluding overvoltage or reverse polairty. One little nasty. The 1771 has a basic ability to do data seperation. I havent' looked at a tarbel board in a very long time but I do hope that they didn't do the TRS80 save a buck trick and try to use that internal seperator, it does NOT work. It has zero jitter tolerence. >I think we're getting closer! > >> >I can't speak for the exact combination of the Tarbell, but the >> >system has been running all day long with: >> >-16k static card >> >-8k static card >> >-4k static card > >The disks are 24k CP/M 1.4, the 4k is for the monitor. Forgot to say >that... Included on my source disk (which is read by the flaky >tarbell) is a BIOS for 48k CP/M, but I have never had it going long >enough to patch, movcpm, or whatever it is that has to be done to get >the new CP/M onto the disk... Just making sure. >>Ok you have 28k ram. Is the image sized and booting in that? >>If the image is sized for say 32 or 48K it will crash, likely >>as a bounce back to rom monitor. > >See previous response for a description. When it runs, it >runs. When it doesn't...it doesn't : ( The fact that it runs is good. You have a viable image but a systemic problem. >I spent all day long writing my own tarbell driver / monitor program >that would select, reset, seek, read, write, etc. When I tried the >read monitor command for the first time I didn't get an error. I >tried booting CP/M and it worked... Then I swapped to the more >troublesome tarbell card to get errors (I know, stupid) The problem >appears to be within the tarbell card. I can reliably get my tarbell >monitor to report this: > >Reading A Sector >ERROR: Record Not Found! >" Data is comming from the disk, however it's not readable. Possible reasons: NOISE, ground the drive, insure it has good power that the system case and it's grounds are common. Also common error is long drive cables (stay short for now) and cables (and drives) that get near CRTs. Jitter: EXTERNAL: This can come from noise as above. Also drive mechanical issues. Internal: 1771 requires a data seperator to recover clock and nice(cleaned up some) read data. The common circuits are oneshots and PLLs. Tarbel used oneshots. Generally they work well enough if set right. LOGIC: problem with read/wait hardware not working or possible data path corruption. > >When I swap to the "better" tarbell, the basic sector read command >passes. (BTW, the reliably bad one above did boot CP/M once and gave >me a few good sectors!!! And I've swapped the 1771 between boards >and the bad stays bad and good stays good!) Basically I use the >monitor to clean the memory, load my program, and then I flip the >reset switch on the Altair. The Altair runs my program which starts >at 0000 and then jumps back into the rom monitor. Here is the >tarbell being good: your shotgunning. I've seen this for 30+ years. Doesn't work, swap out the big hairy chip as they must be flaky or why else put it in a socket? Rare if ever is that the case. FYI: certain brands of sockets of the side wipe style tend to fatigue with insertion/removeal and some do it over time leading to failures where the chips are 100% good but nothing works and may be flakey if wiggled or moved. >" >MON85 Version 1.1 > >Copyright 1979-2006 Dave Dunfield >All rights reserved. > > > F0000 3000 00 > > L > > > >Reading A Sector > >MON85 Version 1.1 > >Copyright 1979-2006 Dave Dunfield >All rights reserved. > > > m2000 >2000 1E 0A 31 00 01 21 00 45 16 33 0E 02 06 04 79 CD ..1..!.E.3....y. >2010 2A 00 15 CA 00 5A 06 00 0C 79 FE 13 DA 0F 00 3E *....Z...y.....> >2020 53 D3 F8 DB FC 0E 01 C3 0C 00 D3 FA CD 41 00 3E S............A.> >2030 88 B0 D3 F8 DB FC B7 F2 41 00 DB FB 77 23 C3 34 ........A...w#.4 >2040 00 DB F8 E6 9D C8 1D C2 02 00 32 80 00 2F D3 FF ..........2../.. >2050 C3 50 00 00 5A 80 04 19 00 02 00 45 80 04 15 01 .P..Z......E.... >2060 01 80 51 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ..Q............. >2070 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C3 00 00 ................ >" > >I have to pull the card out to enable the boot rom...guess what, it >boots...but at the moment it is only reading "real" DD media. The HD >media with the tape "works" but BDOS complains about "bad >sectors". This HD disk on another day works just fine. DD or HD with tarbel?????? >I ran one of the programs: >"A>disktest > >TARBELL MINI-FLOPPY DIAGNOSTIC OF 8-1-80 >STANDARD VERSION 1.8 >40 TRACKS 18 SECTORS > >SELECT DRIVE. (A/B/C/D) a >HOW MANY RETRYS? (0-9) 4 >SELECT STEP RATE. (S=40MS,M=20MS,F=12MS) m >FULL TRACK SEEK? (Y/N) y >TO START TEST TYPE RETURN. > >0 READ ERRORS DETECTED. > >REPEAT TEST? (Y/N) >" > >Maybe that gives you a clue as to what I'm working with. > >And if I try my HD disks it does this: (to every sector on every track) >" >READ RECORD NOT FOUND ERROR. >TRACK 0 SECTOR 1 > >READ RECORD NOT FOUND ERROR. >TRACK 0 SECTOR 2 > >READ RECORD NOT FOUND ERROR. >TRACK 0 SECTOR 3 >" >Last weekend that was my boot disk and I had several basic programs >compiled with basic-e on it. HD media is incompatable in every way with older drives and lower data rates. Drives used for HD media are 96tpi and track pasing ansd width are different, incompatability is oftenn the case or at best it gets by. Don't have Tarbell schematics handy to check. Does the read loop test a status bit or hang/wait on read? If it's hang wait on read is that also tied to interrupt?? If it's read a status bit two things: CPU MUST complete the read a byte loop in 32us (64 for mini floppy) and CPU speed makes this in some cases difficult. can you supply the sector read code? ( should be fairly short) >>Is the boot image set up for MITS 2SIO and does it set it up? > >I have a session captured from "once upon a time" when it booted >(which is more random than anything I can think of) > >"TARBELL 24K CPM V1.4 OF 7-20-79 >2SIO MINIFLOPPY VERSION. >HOW MANY DISKS? 2 >A>dir >A: CPM COM >A: SYSGEN COM >A: DDT COM >A: COPY COM >A: PIP COM >A: ASM COM >A: STAT COM >A: ED COM >A: FORMAT COM >A: DISKTEST COM >A: DUMPDSK COM >A: BASIC COM >A: RUN COM >A> >" Yeeha! >>I assume thse are in high memory and not below the address the image will >>try to boot to. CP/M wants from 0000h to system size as configured. > >My bytesaver is at C000 and 4k of sram for the monitor is at >E000. There is 24k of contigous memory at 0000. > >>Doesnt assure the FDC is set right for the drive and media. >>Also doesnt assure the media is SD or even bootable. >>Further is the media is not using a 2sio as the IO the system could >>boot and crash or appear to. > >The drive, tarbell, and boot disks were mailed to me from a fellow >enthusiast. He made all of the modifications, made the disks, >etc. He has tested the setup in an IMSAI (kind of) with my (kit) >CPU, a SSM 8080, and a ZPU at 2MHz. Kind of and exactly are differnt things. >To add to that, I have myself booted off the setup, formatted disks, >made copies, ran the basic compilier, ran asm, etc. But something >(and I think its IN??? the tarbell card does not like me, Alaska, my >Altiar... I don't know! : ( Could be an interaction of both. > >A quote: >"My Imsai has a standard front panel with a factory suggested mod. to >do a power-on halt at zero. It has two 16K Industrial Microsystems >static ram boards, a SIO2 serial board and a SSM 8080 CPU. The prom >on the Tarbell is turned off to let the front panel operate properly >at power on. The Tarbell is then booted by using a MITS eprom board >and the 1702A eprom you burned for me. The power supply is a >Industrial Microsystems switching supply which powers both the drives >and the backplane But you don't have "that". You sorta have something like that. >Following is the different configurations I have used in the test >unit to boot the Tarbell; > 1. With a Z80 Cromemco ZPU set at 2Mhz, power-on jump set to >zero and no front panel. The Tarbell boots at power-on and will do a >cold boot every time you push the reset button. > 2. With a ZPU and Imsai front panel the Tarbell boots >only when the run switch is pushed. > > 3. With the Altair CPU and no front panel the Tarbell will not >boot at power on or after a reset! No suprize, the MITS CPU has no POJ, nada. It must be reset, load address and then run. > 4. With the Altair CPU and the Imsai front panel the Tarbell >will boot after you push reset and then push the run switch. Says the MITS FP is causing some pain. > >After the Tarbell boards boot I have never had a problem or dropout >in CP/M with any CPU- front panel configuration. The static ram >boards use low power chips and run cool. thats good but getting there is an issue. >Remember my Altair CPU board uses a 8224 in the oscillator circuit >and I replaced the 8T97 with 74LS367's. >" The 8t97s worked fine for me. It has 8224? your mod or 8800B? >This is some info on the mod: >"The modification we have on our Tarbell boards was designed for the >5.25 Tandon TM-100 single sided. single density 48tpi drive which was >one of the first 5.25 drives produced. It might be that some of the >new 3.5 drives just won't work with the setup we are using." The only media that should go in that drive is the brown SD/DD floppies. If the media was written on a 96tpi drive the noise and jitter _will_ be higher due to track width differences. IF the FDC oneshots are not quite on that makes a huge differnence. The hub clamps sometimes off center the media and still media will sometimes drag the motor speed down. Watch for that. >>Could even be a simple bad IDC crimp on the cable. > >I have tried a few FDC cables. Maybe I should make a new one. Suggestions of the obvious. > >Time for bed. : ( > >Grant Don't know if it helps Allison From vze323vd at verizon.net Mon Nov 12 14:16:24 2007 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (vze323vd) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:16:24 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711111946u5e27edeaiaf918d5236fa9070@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jason T > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 10:47 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Commodore 65 = $5,000 > > > On Nov 11, 2007 6:55 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Admittedly, I was mulling over it too. This one is not only a > real 65, it's > > apparently in mostly working order (as much as any of the > extant 65s are). > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230190927853 > > Wow, someone did the Buy-It-Now Prior to this purchase, it seems all he was doing was buying coins. Greg > From laura at gbsncr.com Mon Nov 12 14:47:56 2007 From: laura at gbsncr.com (Laura Ellingson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:47:56 -0600 Subject: Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor Message-ID: <00ab01c8256d$4df11f90$3601a8c0@gbsinc.local> I am looking for information on how to find some part numbers to my NCR 3400 machine. I need one master slave (3) cables that go to the NCR3400 and the controller box (possible pn: 5300008319) for the tape drive (initialization tape 5 ?? tape). Please let me know if you can help. Laura Ellingson Sales & Marketing Manager Guarantee Business Systems, Inc. 800-650-1457, X429 651-286-8429-Direct 651-688-6160-Fax laura at gbsncr.com www.gbsncr.com GBS is a Woman Owned Small Business & Service Disabled Veteran Owned. We are a POS, Storage, networking hardware solution provider - in the IT industry since 1986. From thenicnics at tiscali.co.uk Mon Nov 12 18:08:49 2007 From: thenicnics at tiscali.co.uk (The Nic Nics) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:08:49 -0000 Subject: beckmen industrial circuitmate 9020 osilloscope operaters manual Message-ID: <000001c82589$83c14d90$3c01a8c0@soslow> Hi Dan Please would you contact me if you still have a Beckman industrial circuitmate 9020 oscilloscope operators manual MANY THANKS Gary Nicholson From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Nov 13 00:35:45 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:35:45 -0800 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? In-Reply-To: <87061C46-F3F0-4BB2-8498-146BF97A96AF@neurotica.com> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> <4737752F.9050605@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4737EE39.2020703@msu.edu> <87061C46-F3F0-4BB2-8498-146BF97A96AF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <473945C1.9050506@msu.edu> Gotcha -- that makes sense. I'll have to fool around with this thing and see what I can do with it... Thanks, Josh Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 12, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> If you're looking to part with the manual, let me know. >> Do eeprom programmers like this typically use a standard serial >> protocol to speak to the host PC, or is it usually proprietary per >> manufacturer? Anyone know what software the 280 used? > > Remote control protocols are typically proprietary, but Data I/O's > protocol (at least for the UniFamily units, not sure about the 280) is > well-documented. It's important to note, however, that most > standalone device programmers are designed to be used as...standalone > units. Meaning, you control them from their keypad and display. If > they have a serial port (and most do, the 280 definitely does) then > they usually accept front-panel-initiated transfer of files (usually > binary, Intel hex, Motorola S-record, and a few others) via > Xmodem/Ymodem/etc over the serial port. > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 > > > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Nov 13 00:37:25 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:37:25 -0800 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? In-Reply-To: <4738BC02.3080701@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> <4737752F.9050605@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4737EE39.2020703@msu.edu> <87061C46-F3F0-4BB2-8498-146BF97A96AF@neurotica.com> <4738BC02.3080701@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <47394625.5060803@msu.edu> Excellent. I'll see if I can find a copy of PromLink to fool around with. If you do get a chance to copy the manual, I'd love to have one :). Thanks, Josh joe heck wrote: > The 280 manual has a whole chapter on terminal remote control and > computer remote control, especially command format and summary. > They recommend PromLink (tm) to operate the 280. > > some of the commands are enter/exit CRC mode (computer remote control) > execute command, abort command, set nulls, set family/pinout, set > begin device address, set begin ram address, set block size, etc. > > joe heck > > Haven't decided if I will part with manual, but may copy some... > > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Nov 12, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> If you're looking to part with the manual, let me know. >>> Do eeprom programmers like this typically use a standard serial >>> protocol to speak to the host PC, or is it usually proprietary per >>> manufacturer? Anyone know what software the 280 used? >> >> >> Remote control protocols are typically proprietary, but Data I/O's >> protocol (at least for the UniFamily units, not sure about the 280) >> is well-documented. It's important to note, however, that most >> standalone device programmers are designed to be used >> as...standalone units. Meaning, you control them from their keypad >> and display. If they have a serial port (and most do, the 280 >> definitely does) then they usually accept front-panel-initiated >> transfer of files (usually binary, Intel hex, Motorola S-record, and >> a few others) via Xmodem/ Ymodem/etc over the serial port. >> >> -Dave >> > > From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Nov 13 00:45:09 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:45:09 -0800 Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) Message-ID: <473947F5.7090306@msu.edu> The other day I picked up a Macintosh 512k with a broken monitor for $5 thinking that it'd be a fun project to hack on (yes, another thing to add to my pile of things to hack on, just what I need :)). The power/sweep board had a couple of obviously dead capacitors and a few cracked solder joints, which I fixed up and lo and behold, the screen came back to life and I did a little dance. There was still a bit of jitter in the picture from time to time, and jiggling one of the connectors revealed another dry joint so I powered it down and prepared to fix the other joint. First point of business, I discharged the CRT. To the main chassis. This, as I have now discovered, is not what you are supposed to do to discharge the CRT unless you want to destroy the logic board. I now have a working monitor but a fried logic board; on powerup, the normally short boot tone is long and drawn out, as if the machine were running at a tiny fraction of its normal speed. Which I suppose is actually what's going on. So I killed _something_ on the main PCB, but I'm not sure what. Anyone out there experienced this failure mode? Any obvious things to check? Well, live and learn. At least it wasn't a 128K mac :). Thanks, Josh From JELynch at stny.rr.com Tue Nov 13 08:38:48 2007 From: JELynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:38:48 -0500 Subject: Data I/O 212 programmer available In-Reply-To: <47375D8B.4080103@sbcglobal.net> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <47375D8B.4080103@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4739B6F8.8070405@stny.rr.com> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have a Data I/O model 212 programmer with some memory cards, manuals > and cables. > If anyone wants it, it free, just pay shipping. Total weight is near > 25 pounds with the manuals. > > Bob > > Santa Cruz, CA 95060 > Hi I also have a Data I/O model 212 programmer unfortunately without the manual. Would you be willing to scan and make the manual available? Thanks, Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 13 09:26:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:26:29 -0800 Subject: Slightly OT: Getting parts form Hong Kong Message-ID: <473951A5.31026.EEEEF01@cclist.sydex.com> List, I'm starting work on a small hardware project and note that the best deals on items such as PIC microcontrollers are from Chinese dealers. They seem to be reputable and offer items at half the US supplier price. Has anyone had problems with them? My last order from such an HK supplier was a bucketload of white LEDs. Cheap--and they were exactly what the seller represented them as--shipment took less than a week. I couldn't tough the price I paid through normal US dealders (DigiKey, Mouser, etc.). Cheers, Chuck From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Tue Nov 13 10:03:04 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:03:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil Development System Message-ID: Hey all; My wife's grandfather started a company that made the first digital meter for propane (and other gaseous) distribution and they're clearing out their old facility (which the family calls the Car Barn, for his collection of vintage Packards now stored there). Couple of goodies, but I'm afraid I'm having trouble finding much on some of them, thought perhaps those out there might be able to help. The first is a Victor 9000 which I found some descriptions of and, thanks to Al, a manual on BitSavers. I'll dig into that one later. The next is a 'Rex Microcomputer System', model REX-1032, "Manufactured by Realistic Controls Corporation of Davenport, Iowa". I'm guessing this is a kit computer that's been put together by this local company, but "Rex Micrcomputer" gets me nothing via google and breaking it down gives me screeds of irrelevancies. The machine has a Z80 microprocessor, although it might have another (ala Rainbow) and I just haven't dug far enough. The last is quite a beasty, weighing plenty thanks to its significantly hefty linear power supply. Intersil Development System, ISB 80DS 3020-120. Got six apparently serial ports on the back with what I think is a console cable hanging out one side. What I like best is the socket mounted in the front plate for reading/writing 24 pin DIP chips. Two 8" drives with diskettes in them, God only knows if they're still good after sitting out for this long. I'll give all of the above a good part of the day to warm back up (20F last night in Iowa and they sat out in my car, the boards are now sufficiently slick with condensation in my office) and see what I get. I have a monitor for the Victor and the Rex (a rather adorable 8" Sanyo TV), we'll see what happens on the Intersil. I'd love to hear from anyone who is famaliar with these, on or off-list, your choice. JP Hindin Iowa From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 13 10:21:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:21:03 -0700 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:21:54 -0500. <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <200711130121.55804.rtellason at verizon.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > This sort of thing is exactly the area where I'm fuzziest when it > comes to any sort of a real understanding of big iron. Aside from > seeing references to such stuff from time to time, I really don't > have a clue as to why you'd _want_ something like a separate dedicated > processor to handle I/O, for one example. Its still done to this day, just that the processors are standard parts and are embedded (every modern keyboard has a microprocessor in it!). The reason you do it is because its silly to have your main CPU polling the sense lines on a keyboard to detect keystrokes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From darin.lory at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 10:55:34 2007 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:55:34 -0500 Subject: Do you have oldest-running HP-UX system in the U.S? Message-ID: <544fa56f0711130855s72a6d3a1k99772df58588e731@mail.gmail.com> I thought I would pass this on....I'm sure someone on this list could win this!!! -Darin Do you have the oldest running HP-UX server? If you do, you'll receive a new HP Integrity server as our celebration gift. Register to claim your complimentary limited edition 20thanniversary sweater. If you have the oldest-running HP-UX system in the U.S., you'll receive a new HP Integrity rx2660 server.(2) Your HP-UX server could be more valuable than you think. If it's the oldest HP-UX server still in production, you'll receive a HP Integrity server.(2) Register to enter and receive your complimentary special edition 20th anniversary sweater.(1) https://h30046.www3.hp.com/campaigns/2007/promo/1-43HP8/index.php?key=HPUX&mcc=CUBH&dimid=1004577787&dicid=&jumpid=em_taw2-r2548/us/nov07/tsg/offer/1-43hp8/mcc|cubh/1q08hpux20anniversary/kimtsg/taw2 Register today to see if it's yours and receive: * A limited edition 20th anniversary sweater(1) * A chance to receive(2) an HP Integrity rx2660 server with HP-UX 11i v3 license and HP Care Pack Service * Outstanding trade-in discounts Celebrating 20 Years of HP-UX customer loyalty. Find out if you have the oldest running system https://h30046.www3.hp.com/campaigns/2007/promo/1-43HP8/index.php?key=HPUX&mcc=CUBH&dimid=1004577787&dicid=&jumpid=em_taw2-r2548/us/nov07/tsg/offer/1-43hp8/mcc|cubh/1q08hpux20anniversary/kimtsg/taw2 Technology for better business outcomes. _____________________________________________________________________ 1. Complimentary HP-UX anniversary offer subject to HP terms and conditions. Offer available to all U.S. customers with a valid HP-UX server serial number while supplies last. You must meet HP qualifications. HP may discontinue this offer at anytime. 2. Rules: No purchase necessary. Open only to U.S. entries. Entries must be received by January 15, 2008. HP will determine and select the oldest running system from all valid entries received, based on the oldest running instance of a HP-UX server currently in production. HP reserves the right to disqualify entries for any reason. The oldest running system will be announced in February 2008. (C) 2007 Hewlett-Packard Company. All rights reserved. All product and company names referenced herein are trademarks of their respective owners. THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. INFORMATION PROVIDED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED AS IS WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. This document may be copied provided all text is included and copies contain HP's copyright notice and any other notices provided herein. From trag at io.com Tue Nov 13 11:17:41 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:17:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <200711131528.lADFShPl011049@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711131528.lADFShPl011049@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <12318.209.163.133.242.1194974261.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:45:09 -0800 > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) > The other day I picked up a Macintosh 512k with a broken monitor for $5 > thinking that it'd be a fun project to hack on (yes, another thing to > add to my pile of things to hack on, just what I need :)). > > First point of business, I discharged the CRT. > To the main chassis. This, as I have now discovered, is not what you > are supposed to do to discharge the CRT unless you want to destroy the > logic board. > > Anyone out there experienced this failure mode? Any > obvious things to check? That particular failure is documented in Larry Pina's "Macintosh Repair and Upgrade Secrets" and probably in "The Dead Mac Scrolls" as well. I'd look it up for you, but I don't have my books with me here. It's definitely an IC, but I don't remember which one, nor how rare/common it is. If someone else doesn't jump in with the answer, email me (to remind me when I'm at home) and I'll look it up. Jeff Walther From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 13 11:16:12 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:16:12 +0000 Subject: Do you have oldest-running HP-UX system in the U.S? In-Reply-To: <544fa56f0711130855s72a6d3a1k99772df58588e731@mail.gmail.com> References: <544fa56f0711130855s72a6d3a1k99772df58588e731@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4739DBDC.6020005@yahoo.co.uk> Darin Lory wrote: > I thought I would pass this on....I'm sure someone on this list could > win this!!! -Darin Interesting - they did this in the UK a couple of months ago (I can't remember what the prize was; when HP came to see us they were still undecided). Wonder why it's being done in the US so much later? Surely the first HP-UX systems would have been on US soil, with other markets coming later? (I think the UK compo was tied to 'x years of HP-UX', but maybe it was simply because they felt like it!) (No, we didn't enter obviously... that felt too much like cheating...) cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 13 11:24:43 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:24:43 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <47394B22.7060309@msm.umr.edu> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47394B22.7060309@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 November 2007 01:58, jim s wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 12 November 2007 17:24, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > The I/O on a full blown system is where a modern system might have > >> > emulation problems > >> > >> This is exactly where simulation has been hung up for years. The mass > >> storage and terminal system is complex, with microcoded controllers for > >> tape and disk and dedicated front end processors for terminal/network > >> I/O. > > > > This sort of thing is exactly the area where I'm fuzziest when it comes > > to any sort of a real understanding of big iron. Aside from seeing > > references to such stuff from time to time, I really don't have a clue > > as to why you'd _want_ something like a separate dedicated processor to > > handle I/O, for one example. > > The Multics system was designed to be scaled to very large numbers of > processors and thousands of users. That's the OS. And then there's the hardware, with which some stuff scales well and some doesn't, and I'm still trying to figure out what the factors are that get invovled in that. > It was recognized that all of the tasks to handle the disk i/o which was > very important to performance need not all go thru the processors in all > cases. Makes sense. > Multics was a virtual memory system. The nature of this sort of system > was researched by students at MIT and ideas to enhance performance showed > that a lot of the activities could be carried out by subsystems which were > dedicated to just the specific task of moving data to and from the memory. This is where I get a little puzzled sometimes. Like that BB2 I mentioned, that uses DMA to send a string of bytes to the disk controller chip rather than using the processor to do those transfers. Why is not immediately apparent to me since the processor isn't doing anything else at that point anyhow... > Early systems also had three level storage systems which incorporated a > swapping drum to allow the same performance of a large amount of core memory > w/o having the actual core available by swapping user spaces to the drum. > Disk was sufficiently fast to allow the virtual memory approach to start to > be used in a timesharing system, but not fast enough to match the drum > storage performance. A lot of the early textbooks I was able to get my hands on (mostly the sorts you could find in a public library) mentioned drum storage, but they never really got into the performance and capacity comparisons between those and disk. And then there was mention briefly of those systems that had multiple fixed heads for R/W rather than moving a single one -- I believe some of the DEC literature I got my hands on back when also talked about such devices, but I never really saw hard numbers to be able to compare them. Never actually saw a drum or a system that used one, either... > When the system I worked on was configured the threshold was crossed and > the USL Multics system was configured with no drum and a large (1 or 2mb I > think) or memory rather than a drum. Speaking of crossing a threshold I can still remember years ago, when the only computer I had was my Osborne Executive, and I was sitting there using Wordstar, and hit the point where the file I was working on would no longer fit completely within memory. The transition was so completely seamless and transparent to me as the user I was impressed. :-) And on this current linux box, it continues... Though when I run out of swap, thats another story. It's still pretty seriously robust, though. > > Or mass storage. Or whatever. > > The communications front end handled a lot of the mundane tasks of > interfacing with terminals and transmitted in streams of character data to > and from the terminal rather than dealing withcharacter transfers. > > > And I really don't have that much of a handle on how the architecture of > > those sorts of machines differs from the micros I'm familiar with. Even > > that bit of time I got to spend with the Heath H11 was very alien to the > > rest of what I'm familiar with. > > > > I realize that I'll never get as familiar with some of this stuff as some > > of you guys that have actually worked with it, but can any of you point > > me toward some resources that might let me understand some of it better > > than I do now? > > C. Gordon Bell's books are a good place to start. One oriented towards > DEC systems is at > > http://research.microsoft.com/~GBell/CGB%20Files/Computer%20Engineering%207 >809%20c.pdf > > This book which is online covers all computers for the time it was published > and is very useful to read. > > http://research.microsoft.com/~GBell/CGB%20Files/Computer%20Structures%20Pr >inciples%20and%20Examples%201982%20ng%20c.pdf Looks like some reading material, there... :-) > Also on that site is a listing of computer companies he compiled which > is very useful if you can't quite think of the name of the computer company > you have a part for. (off the subject but useful) > > http://research.microsoft.com/~GBell/CGB%20Files/91_US_minicomputer_compani >es_1960-1982+44_minisupers_superminis_scalables_1983-1995.htm > > I find his web site is useful in general to pour over for reading. The > links above are from books he has had put online since going to work for > Microsoft. > > http://research.microsoft.com/~GBell/ I'll have a look there when the downloads are finished. Thanks for the pointers... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 13 11:39:00 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:39:00 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:21 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > This sort of thing is exactly the area where I'm fuzziest when it > comes to any > sort of a real understanding of big iron. Aside from seeing > references to > such stuff from time to time, I really don't have a clue as to why > you'd > _want_ something like a separate dedicated processor to handle I/ > O, for one > example. Or mass storage. The use of dedicated processors to handle specific tasks within a large system is beneficial in a great many ways. If you have a processor handling disk I/O, for example, that processor can deal with error handling, possibly RAID stuff, transfer reordering and optimization, etc., thus offloading the main processor and freeing up its cycles for applications. Every cycle the main processor doesn't need to spend managing crap like disk and terminal I/O is a cycle that can be spent executing application code. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Nov 13 12:13:59 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:13:59 +0000 Subject: Slightly OT: Getting parts form Hong Kong In-Reply-To: <473951A5.31026.EEEEF01@cclist.sydex.com> References: <473951A5.31026.EEEEF01@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1194977639.7549.2.camel@elric.inet> On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 07:26 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > List, > > I'm starting work on a small hardware project and note that the best > deals on items such as PIC microcontrollers are from Chinese dealers. > They seem to be reputable and offer items at half the US supplier > price. Has anyone had problems with them? These days I basically wouldn't buy components from anywhere else. Maplin and the like are just interested in selling mobile phones, PC components and car stereos. The few components they do stock are mostly web order only with a two-week lead time. If I can order the same thing for a tenth of the price from a guy in China who will have it with me within five working days, then it's really a no-brainer. Much as I'd like to use local shops for these things, they all basically fail to provide what I want. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 13 12:30:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:30:10 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org>, <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2007 at 1:21, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I really don't have a clue as to why you'd > _want_ something like a separate dedicated processor to handle I/O, for one > example. Or mass storage. Or whatever. And I really don't have that much > of a handle on how the architecture of those sorts of machines differs from > the micros I'm familiar with. Even that bit of time I got to spend with the > Heath H11 was very alien to the rest of what I'm familiar with. I can't imagine why anyone *wouldn't* want such a thing. Consider one of the big iron systems of the 60's and 70's--the CDC 6600. A CPU with 10 peripheral processors. Within these processors, much of what we would call the operating system is resident. The file system, job control and general I/O is handled without the intervention of the CPU, which is left to do what it does best-- handle user computations with a minimum of interruption. The PPUs handle the operator display, time (task switching/time of day, etc.) and the basic I/O activities, including loading the necessary programs to do so. PPUs can read and write CPU memory, but the reverse is not true--the CPU cannot interfere with the activities of the PPUs other than to post a request by writing to prearranged locations in memory. It's very secure. In any processor with pipelining, instruction look-ahead and caching, branch prediction and all of those other little gimmicks that make execution faster, the idea of interposing interrupts that bollix up all of the above is pure insanity. For example, suppose I wanted to read a disk file. After opening the file, I issue a read request to the I/O subsystem, which performs the necessary mapping of my logical request to a physical disk drive and the process is begun. As long as I can remove data from the read buffer quickly enough, the processor handling my disk I/O will continue to read data and place it into the buffer. If I wanted to copy from a disk to a tape, I'd set up two requests--a read and a write and, as long as I could move data quickly enough, the operation had the potential of being continuous, with two processors attached to my job handling the I/O. The amount of CPU time consumed is minimal. A PPU will probably talk in turn to another specialized processor that's attached to a specific I/O device that further simplifies the interaction. Why should a PPU do all of the work to monitor the on- or off-line states of a bank of disk drives when the processor in the controller for the drives can do it? We see this in modern PC's with GPUs--a processor that's distinct from the CPU that does a better job of handling a particular task than the CPU. It just makes sense. It's a shame we don't any modern PCs with a standardized peripheral processor structure, particularly given the cost of a microcontroller nowadays. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 13 14:05:57 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:05:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org>, <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711132008.PAA02470@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I really don't have a clue as to why you'd _want_ something like a >> separate dedicated processor to handle I/O, > I can't imagine why anyone *wouldn't* want such a thing. It makes debugging substantially more difficult when the code is scattered across multiple processors, especially if they're heterogenous. The hardware costs more. (Yes, these are often outweighed by other considerations; I offer them as possible answers to the question of why one might not want such a thing.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From grant at stockly.com Tue Nov 13 14:34:53 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:34:53 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRG00K5S4LGXBC9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRG00K5S4LGXBC9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JRG009N6P9AXH40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> More to add... I know that writing to 3.5" HD disks with the hole covered to make them look like DD is frowned upon, but maybe it could help determine why I get errors with the real DD disks. While trying to back up my DD disks onto HD hole covered disks I got an error. Its not the disk because I've tried two and they both fail at the same spot. Also, are DD disks the same as Single Sided 3.5" 360/400k disks? Except for the double sided part? What are good sources for DD disks TODAY, not NOS disks, but new disks? Is athana the only place out there making DD disks? When copying from drive A to drive B it has an error at the end of the disk. Is this where a data rate issue would be the worst? A>stat *.* | B>stat *.* | RECS BYTS EX D:FILENAME.TYP | RECS BYTS EX D:FILENAME.TYP 0 0K 1 A:.INT | 64 8K 1 B:ASM.COM 64 8K 1 A:ASM.COM | 96 12K 1 B:BASIC.COM 96 12K 1 A:BASIC.COM | 8 1K 1 B:COPY.COM 8 1K 1 A:COPY.COM | 70 9K 1 B:CPM.COM 70 9K 1 A:CPM.COM | 38 5K 1 B:DDT.COM 38 5K 1 A:DDT.COM | 12 2K 1 B:DISKTEST.COM 12 2K 1 A:DISKTEST.COM | 24 3K 1 B:DUMPDSK.COM 24 3K 1 A:DUMPDSK.COM | 48 6K 1 B:ED.COM 48 6K 1 A:ED.COM | 4 1K 1 B:FORMAT.COM 4 1K 1 A:FORMAT.COM | 56 7K 1 B:PIP.COM 56 7K 1 A:PIP.COM | 0 0K 1 B:RUN.$$$ 92 12K 1 A:RUN.COM | 24 3K 1 B:STAT.COM 24 3K 1 A:STAT.COM | 8 1K 1 B:SYSGEN.COM 8 1K 1 A:SYSGEN.COM | BYTES REMAINING ON B: 11K BYTES REMAINING ON A: 0K | | B> A> | And the error: A>PIP B:=*.* COPYING - CPM.COM SYSGEN.COM DDT.COM COPY.COM PIP.COM ASM.COM STAT.COM ED.COM FORMAT.COM DISKTEST.COM DUMPDSK.COM BASIC.COM RUN.COM DISK WRITE ERROR: =*.* A: R/O, SPACE: 0K B: R/W, SPACE: 11K A> (can't be too save with my only good boot disk, A:. :) Grant From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 13 13:04:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:04:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRE001199RY37I8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Nov 12, 7 08:07:22 am Message-ID: > I've seen bad 1771s out of the box (WD was not allways a qualaity house) > but I've never seeen one fail in service excluding overvoltage or reverse > polairty. I have, or at least I think I have. A friend had an RML380Z machine with disk problems, and after a bit of troubleshooting, we traced it to the 1771 chip. I had _one_ spare at the time which I gave him, AFAIK the machine is still running 10 years on. Now obvioulsly I can't be sure there wasn't a spike on one of the PSU rails that killed the old chip, but that was the only chip in the machine to fail, and the 380Z PSU is a pretty simple thing full of 3-terminal regulators, not known for playing up. I've certainly had 1793s fail in my TRS-80 Model 3. One time it intermittantly didn't prrduce DRQs, so the data register was not loaded with the next byte by the software. The result was bytes being repeated in a secotr. Ouch!.A text file might contain 'Hellllllllllllllo World' for example. > One little nasty. The 1771 has a basic ability to do data seperation. > I havent' looked at a tarbel board in a very long time but I do hope > that they didn't do the TRS80 save a buck trick and try to use that > internal seperator, it does NOT work. It has zero jitter tolerence. Strange. I used an unmodified TRS-80 Model 1 EI for years and never had any problems with the disk side of things. And that used the internal data separateor of the 1771 IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 13 13:11:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:11:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 12, 7 05:00:09 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > [...] That's why I have the machine after all. > > Yes, that's why *you* have the machine. Which is exactly what I said... > > Where the snobbery comes in is when you poo-poo the reasons why > *other* people have their machines, just like you did in this post. Now wait a second. Just becasue I don't actively approve of something does not mean I disapprove of it. A typical on-topic example would be 'emulaotrs' I have little interest in running them myself, but they are obviously very important for the preservation of classic computer software. However, I am saddened by a classic computer that will never be turned on again. Computers are not fine art, they are machines that should be run (and for that matter, I feel that fine are should be viewed, not stored in a vault). If you don't ahve the skills or interest to restore a machine, well, that's fine. But I really don't see the point of having a policy of never using anything, of never looking inside anything, and so on. But then I don't invest my money in classic computers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 13 13:23:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:23:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRF00G2D5B7IYC0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> from "Grant Stockly" at Nov 12, 7 03:25:53 pm Message-ID: > > Wow, a lot to go over here... Rich, if you have any problems with > your drive I might be able to help you after this exercise! : ) > > >Data is comming from the disk, however it's not readable. Possible > >reasons: > > > > NOISE, ground the drive, insure it has good power that the > > system case and it's grounds are common. Also common > > error is long drive cables (stay short for now) and cables > > (and drives) that get near CRTs. > > I'm hooking the 3.5" drive power cable directly to the output of the > 7805 on the tarbell, which is getting its power from an 8v switching > power supply. The power is nice and steady at 4.95v. The only thing > I haven't done is made sure the case is grounded. Some drives had > jumpers for that, but mine doesn't. So it could be either way. If that's a plain 7805, it'll only sypply 1A. And I could well believe an S100 board of logic (including a 1771) _and _ a floppy drive could take more than that. You might be having little power glitches caused by the spindle motor, or when you step the head, that will really mess things up. I would use a seprarate supply for the drive. As regards grounds, it's ovbiously essential that the 0V line of the drive and controller (and the rest of the S100 system) are all linked together. But I've never hand any problems with not bonding the drive chassis to ground, I suspect that unless you live in an eelctrically noisy environment, you won't either. > >HD media is incompatable in every way with older drives and lower > >data rates. > > My drive is a new from sony. I've made formatted and written to HD > disks with the HD hole covered. This same drive reading the same > disks does not always read. I don't know if its the tarbell's fault or not. [...] > I've read that HD (1.44MB 3.5") disks with tape over the HD hole > aren't exactly a DD disk. Something about the track width being Coirrect. The coercivity of the HD media is a little higher. Not as bad as the difference between 5.25" DD and HD disks, but it can still 'bite' you sometimes. > narrower because of the smaller head in an HD drive? BUT, the DD > (720k 3.5") disks were formatted to 40 tracks 18 sectors, 128 bytes a > sector using an HD drive. So the DD disks wouldn't have a wide track > width to begin with. Are there really physical media differences When used ona PC, both 3.5" formats (720K and 1.44M) have 80 cylinders, 2 heads. The track spacing is the same (135 tpi). If you're only using 40 cylinders, my guess is that you're using the outer 40 cylinders of the 80-cylinder format, still at 135 tpi. This shouldn't be a problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 13 14:38:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 20:38:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <473947F5.7090306@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Nov 12, 7 10:45:09 pm Message-ID: > > The other day I picked up a Macintosh 512k with a broken monitor for $5 > thinking that it'd be a fun project to hack on (yes, another thing to > add to my pile of things to hack on, just what I need :)). > > The power/sweep board had a couple of obviously dead capacitors and a > few cracked solder joints, which I fixed up and lo and behold, the > screen came back to life and I did a little dance. There was still a > bit of jitter in the picture from time to time, and jiggling one of the > connectors revealed another dry joint so I powered it down and prepared > to fix the other joint. First point of business, I discharged the CRT. > To the main chassis. This, as I have now discovered, is not what you > are supposed to do to discharge the CRT unless you want to destroy the > logic board. No matter what certain books and websites say, IMHO you should always have some kind of current limiting resistor when discharging a CRT. Otherwise, as you unfortunately discovered, the can be voltages induced in the strangest placed that will blow semiconductors. I normally use my EHT probe, it's got a internal resistance of 800M, and will discharge a CRT in a couple of seconds. The corerect point to discrhage to in just about all machines/monitors is the outer aquadag coutaing. After all, what you're discharging is the capacitor formed by the inner and outer aquadag coatings on th CRT flare. In quite a number of machines, that outer coating is connected to wire on the same connector as the CRT base wires. which means it takes a somewhat circuitous route to chassis. Hence, alas, your problems > I now have a working monitor but a fried logic board; on powerup, the > normally short boot tone is long and drawn out, as if the machine were > running at a tiny fraction of its normal speed. Which I suppose is What's odd is that it's running at all.. My first thorught is you've lost some DTAck/ generation, and the processor is extending every bus cycle until it times out. That would certainly slow things down a lot. I've never been inside a Mac 512, but I've worked on a Mac+. The problem is thst most of the logic is in HAL chips (Hard Array Logic -- mask programmed gate arrays with the saem architecture as a PAL). And AFAIK there's no way to read out the 'fuse map' from a HAL (certainly I've never managed it). So I don't have the logic equations, which makes troubleshooting, and indeed repair, a little hard. I thinkl I would start wih the one chip you certainly know, the 68000. Look to see if the bus cycles (AS/ width, etc) look reasonable. -tony From pechter at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:06:55 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:06:55 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: <200711120435.lAC4ZWGi082366@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711120435.lAC4ZWGi082366@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:18:45 -0600 > From: "Jason T" > Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > So I like early speech synthesis. I like DEC stuff. I've got a > couple forms of the DECTalk boxes (the portable, the ISA card.) I'd > like the DTC-01 unit, the one that sort of looks like a VX2000 > terminal. They come up on ebay every other week or so and end up > selling for well over $100. > > Who's buying these things? Are they popular with collectors? Or are > they still being used in the disability care industry? > Folks like me would love to get some cheap. My wife's blind and from what I've seen the DECtalk is the best sounding of the early Speach synthesis boxes. It's (IIRC) got a pair of 68k chips and some nice software including stuff like an "email mode" which knows how to skip the extraneous header stuff when talking mail messages. I picked up one of the ISA DECtalkPC's cheap a couple of weeks ago but I'd like to get one of the externals. They're supported by just about every accessibililty program. bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 13 15:31:31 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:31:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711132134.QAA03569@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The problem is thst most of the logic is in HAL chips (Hard Array > Logic -- mask programmed gate arrays with the saem architecture as a > PAL). And AFAIK there's no way to read out the 'fuse map' from a HAL > (certainly I've never managed it). So I don't have the logic > equations, which makes troubleshooting, and indeed repair, a little > hard. I don't know PAL/HAL chips, but if you have reason to think the circuit is combinatorial, it's easy enough to just exhaustively probe its truth table, and once you have that, you don't care how it's built up in terms of gates (except, I suppose, for cases where delay times and output glitches matter). Of course, if it's *not* combinatorial, it gets more interesting. And I suppose all the interesting stuff isn't.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 13 15:55:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:55:01 -0800 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRG009N6P9AXH40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JRG00K5S4LGXBC9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <0JRG009N6P9AXH40@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4739ACB5.18711.1052A73A@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2007 at 11:34, Grant Stockly wrote: > Also, are DD disks the same as Single Sided 3.5" 360/400k > disks? Except for the double sided part? Very close--I've got 3M's published specs on all of these, if anyone cares. And 3.5 DSHD media is fairly close to DS2D; the coercivity is somewhat higher, requiring increased write currents, but not as drastic as the difference between 5.25" DSDD and DSHD. > When copying from drive A to drive B it has an error at the end of > the disk. Is this where a data rate issue would be the worst? > DISK WRITE ERROR: =*.* > > A: R/O, SPACE: 0K > B: R/W, SPACE: 11K Of course--for at least two reasons. The first is that the linear path is shorter; you're packing more bits per unit length. The second is that the surface velocity with respect to the head is lower. Since the induced write current is a function of the square of the velocity (another one of those v**2 laws that are so common in physics), the signal is weaker. The methods of getting around this are several. One can vary the rotational speed of the drive so the linear velocity remains relatively constant (Apple Lisa and the Victor 9000 come to mind). The upshot here is that outer tracks will hold more than inner ones, so a translation layer is necessary in software when attempting to determine the address of a block. One can also vary the speed of the bit clock, slowing it as the center of the disk is approached. This doesn't elminate the problem of a lower read signal on the inner tracks, but it helps. One can reduce the write current on the inner tracks (8" drives do this on receipt of the TG43 signal) to make the transitions a bit cleaner (oxide coated media has a tendency to "blur" or "shift" the edges of domains if they're close together). Finally, one can play some tricks, varying the timing of bit transitions during writing depending on the pattern of adjacent bits to make things look better when reading--in other words, if two bits are close together, one can make the transition of the first one a bit earlier or the transition of the second one a bit later. This is mostly done with MFM recording, not FM. I don't know enough about your controller to diagnose things, but perhaps this will help a bit. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 13 15:56:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:56:57 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 November 2007 13:30, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Nov 2007 at 1:21, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I really don't have a clue as to why you'd > > _want_ something like a separate dedicated processor to handle I/O, for > > one example. Or mass storage. Or whatever. And I really don't have > > that much of a handle on how the architecture of those sorts of machines > > differs from the micros I'm familiar with. Even that bit of time I got > > to spend with the Heath H11 was very alien to the rest of what I'm > > familiar with. > > I can't imagine why anyone *wouldn't* want such a thing. Well, my admittedly limited experience with stuff is that the "main" processor isn't doing much of anything while it's waiting for I/O to complete anyhow, or at least that's what my perception has been. Now I'll be the first to admit that my perceptions are very much skewed toward the 8-bit micro and crudely-done DOS-based end of things, so maybe I just need to get a good hard look at how some other stuff is done. I know for example that when I was looking at that H11 setup we got a hold of all sorts of software, one of which was "MUBASIC", which would supposedly support 8 users. It was not at all clear to me at that point in time how it was supposed to do that, or if it was even possible for it to do that with the hardware we had there at the time, but this was seriously different from much else of what I've ever encountered. > Consider one of the big iron systems of the 60's and 70's--the CDC 6600. Which is exactly the sort of thing I have absolutely zero experience with. :-) > A CPU with 10 peripheral processors. Within these processors, much of > what we would call the operating system is resident. Actually a distributed OS sounds pretty good to me... > The file system, job control and general I/O is handled without the > intervention of the CPU, which is left to do what it does best-- > handle user computations with a minimum of interruption. This is part of where things get fuzzy for me. What I see a CPU typically dealing with in the contexts that I'm familiar with is a lot of what you say in the above that it's not having to deal with. So aside from computationally-intensive tasks (I guess what the books used to call "scientific" computing rather than "business" computing back when that distinction still meant something), what else is there for it to do? > The PPUs handle the operator display, time (task switching/time of > day, etc.) and the basic I/O activities, including loading the necessary > programs to do so. PPUs can read and write CPU memory, but the reverse is > not true--the CPU cannot interfere with the activities of the PPUs other > than to post a request by writing to prearranged locations in memory. It's > very secure. Now there are some particulars that I wasn't aware of. Is that shared memory stuff how it was done, mostly? > In any processor with pipelining, instruction look-ahead and caching, > branch prediction and all of those other little gimmicks that make > execution faster, the idea of interposing interrupts that bollix up > all of the above is pure insanity. Yep. I don't see how you can make them be all that useful without some serious tradeoffs, but then most of today's processors are horribly kludged in terms of architecture as far as I'm concerned. At least that's the way I've felt ever since I bumped into "segment registers" and similar nonsense back when. :-) > For example, suppose I wanted to read a disk file. After opening the > file, I issue a read request to the I/O subsystem, which performs the > necessary mapping of my logical request to a physical disk drive and > the process is begun. As long as I can remove data from the read > buffer quickly enough, the processor handling my disk I/O will > continue to read data and place it into the buffer. Ok... > If I wanted to copy from a disk to a tape, I'd set up two requests--a > read and a write and, as long as I could move data quickly enough, > the operation had the potential of being continuous, with two > processors attached to my job handling the I/O. The amount of CPU > time consumed is minimal. Makes sense to me... > A PPU will probably talk in turn to another specialized processor > that's attached to a specific I/O device that further simplifies the > interaction. Why should a PPU do all of the work to monitor the on- > or off-line states of a bank of disk drives when the processor in the > controller for the drives can do it? We have that to some extent now, with proessing power in printers, disk drives, and so forth. > We see this in modern PC's with GPUs--a processor that's distinct > from the CPU that does a better job of handling a particular task > than the CPU. > > It just makes sense. It's a shame we don't any modern PCs with a > standardized peripheral processor structure, particularly given the > cost of a microcontroller nowadays. The way it's being done these days seems to me to be too driven by specific applications, and specific things that the designers had in mind when they came up with some of this stuff. That's fine and dandy for when you have say a processor that's dedicated to a job like running a printer, or a disk drive, but not so much for other things that could be a litlte more generalized. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 13 16:28:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:28:22 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org>, <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4739B486.25787.10712EA5@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2007 at 16:56, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Well, my admittedly limited experience with stuff is that the "main" > processor isn't doing much of anything while it's waiting for I/O to complete > anyhow, or at least that's what my perception has been. Now I'll be the > first to admit that my perceptions are very much skewed toward the 8-bit > micro and crudely-done DOS-based end of things, so maybe I just need to get > a good hard look at how some other stuff is done. Well, why have a multi-gigahertz CPU if you're not going to do computationally intensive things with it? A lot of graphics and multimedia is very computationally intensive in today's world, even with gigaflop GPUs. In the CDC 6600, I should probably say that Seymour Cray rigged things to give the *appearance* of 10 PPUs. Core back then was 1 microsecond and the CPU used it interleaved by a factor of 10, so a cycle time of 100 nsec was possible. The "10" PPUs all shared a common ALU--each had its own 1 microsecond 4Kx12 bit memory, P- counter and accumulator, and each took a turn in the "barrel" so that each appeared to be an independent CPU. Access to central memory (60 bits wide) by the PPUs was obtained through what was called the "read- write pyramid" where up to 5 CPU words could be in various stages of assembly or disassembly. It was very slick. And yes, in its day, the 6600 was considered to be a computational "monster" that used a lot of the tricks we use today to speed up CPU execution. Slow functional units were segmented (early pipelining), there was a read-ahead cache for instructions, so it was possible to keep small loops entirely in cache, and elegant scheduling method was used to control instruction scheduling. And the instruction set itself was very simple; some refer to it as very RISC-like. All this with core and discrete transistors, yet. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 16:37:32 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:37:32 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <4739B486.25787.10712EA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> <4739B486.25787.10712EA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > In the CDC 6600, I should probably say that Seymour Cray rigged > things to give the *appearance* of 10 PPUs. Core back then was 1 > microsecond and the CPU used it interleaved by a factor of 10, so a > cycle time of 100 nsec was possible. The "10" PPUs all shared a > common ALU--each had its own 1 microsecond 4Kx12 bit memory, P- > counter and accumulator, and each took a turn in the "barrel" so that > each appeared to be an independent CPU. Access to central memory (60 > bits wide) by the PPUs was obtained through what was called the "read- > write pyramid" where up to 5 CPU words could be in various stages of > assembly or disassembly. It was very slick. Low end IBM mainframes also used this trick, stealing the ALU away from the processor to do channel stuff. It is almost like the processor emulated the channel you were too cheap to buy. -- Will From spc at conman.org Tue Nov 13 17:05:48 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:05:48 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47394B22.7060309@msm.umr.edu> <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071113230548.GA24177@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Roy J. Tellason once stated: > On Tuesday 13 November 2007 01:58, jim s wrote: > > > Multics was a virtual memory system. The nature of this sort of system > > was researched by students at MIT and ideas to enhance performance showed > > that a lot of the activities could be carried out by subsystems which were > > dedicated to just the specific task of moving data to and from the memory. > > This is where I get a little puzzled sometimes. Like that BB2 I mentioned, > that uses DMA to send a string of bytes to the disk controller chip rather > than using the processor to do those transfers. Why is not immediately > apparent to me since the processor isn't doing anything else at that point > anyhow... Here's an example, using some old vintage home based computers. The Tandy Color Computer had a serial port, but at the hardware level, it was basically three one-bit ports, one bit for input, one bit for output, and one for carrier detect. The code to transfer a byte looked something like this (I don't have my notes handy at the moment): BSR XMITLOW LDA #byte-we-want-to-transfer LDB #8 * 8 bits LOOP RORA BCS LOOP1 BSR XMITLOW BRA LOOP2 LOOP1 BSR XMITHIGH LOOP2 DECB BNE LOOP BSR SETHIGH RTS XMITLOW PSHS A,X LDA #OUTPORTLOW STA SERIALOUT LDX BAUDPAUSE BSR PAUSE PULS A,X,PC XMITHIGH PSHS A,X LDA #OUTPORTHIGH STA SERIALOUT LDX BAUDPAUSE BSR PAUSE PULS A,X,PC PAUSE LEAX -1,X BNE PAUSE RTS Well, something close to that. Anyways, the upshot is that the CPU has to spend the time serializing all the bits, sending it out the port, and waiting around to make sure the timing is correct. That means that the Color Computer can't be doing anything else while sending (and receiving for that matter) data over the serial port. Add some intelligence (like the 8251 used in PCs (I think I got that right)) and sending now becomes something like: push ax push dx push si mov si,[xmitbuffer] lodsb mov [xmitbuffer],si mov dx,[serialport] out dx,al mov al,$20 out $20,al pop si pop dx pop ax rti Here, the hardware can interrupt the PC when it's ready to send the data, so all the PC has to do is give the UART the data, then signal the end of the interrupt. The UART can then spend the time doing other things, like oh, waiting for you to hit the keyboard. And it's easier to deal with; you just need to write the data to the UART, and it handles all the nasty details. You still might think this is a bit overkill, but it's nice to have. Very nice. The PCjr, unlike every other PC, had to have the CPU handle the serial stream from the keyboard (much like the Color Computer having to deal with the serial port above). Not much of an issue normally, but it did interfear with disk IO, since the CPU had to handle THAT as well. So you couldn't type while the disk was busy. And due to the lack of disk IO, that meant that downloads where a bit slower than on a PC (since the PCjr couldn't save the previous block of data as the next one was coming down). An even better example is the C-64. The disk drives on that are netoriously slow, but were computers in their own right, having a CPU as part of the drive electronics. One trick (assuming you have at least two disk drives) was to program the disk drives to copy a disk, thus leaving the C-64 free for something else, like playing Mule. -spc (Gah! I've forgotten the Return-From-Interrupt mnemonic for Intels ... ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 13 17:07:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:07:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071113150500.G26993@shell.lmi.net> > One little nasty. The 1771 has a basic ability to do data seperation. Well, it purports to. The quality of the internal data separation sometimes leaves a bit to be desired. Percom sold an astonishing number of add-on data separator sandwich boards to TRS80 owners. Then they switched to selling a sandwich board that added a 179x for double density, while still retaining the 1771, for the oddball DAMs that it could provide (needed for TRS80) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 13 17:17:47 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:17:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <20071113230548.GA24177@brevard.conman.org> from Sean Conner at "Nov 13, 7 06:05:48 pm" Message-ID: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> > An even better example is the C-64. The disk drives on that are > netoriously slow, but were computers in their own right, having a CPU as > part of the drive electronics. One trick (assuming you have at least two > disk drives) was to program the disk drives to copy a disk, The 64 was emblematic of the best and worst features of this. The intelligent serial peripherals could talk amongst each other, such as the disk drive becoming commanded to TALK and the printer to LISTEN, which is essentially a print spooler. On the other hand, there was the 6551 ACIA emulation in software for the user port, which was buggy to boot. People may make fun of the Plus/4 but at least it had a real ACIA. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From grant at stockly.com Tue Nov 13 17:16:59 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:16:59 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: References: <0JRE001199RY37I8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JRG00HADWRGQH10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> > > One little nasty. The 1771 has a basic ability to do data seperation. > > I havent' looked at a tarbel board in a very long time but I do hope > > that they didn't do the TRS80 save a buck trick and try to use that > > internal seperator, it does NOT work. It has zero jitter tolerence. > >Strange. I used an unmodified TRS-80 Model 1 EI for years and never had >any problems with the disk side of things. And that used the internal >data separateor of the 1771 IIRC. If that is the case, why would the Tarbell have so many extra chips? Also, at the time the tarbell was manufactured, would they have even known that there was an issue with the 1771's data separation? Just wondering why...I'm not trying to second guess anyone. Just that if the extra ICs weren't required I can't imagine Tarbell using them??? Grant From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 13 17:47:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:47:57 -0800 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRG00HADWRGQH10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JRE001199RY37I8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, , <0JRG00HADWRGQH10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4739C72D.5012.10BA0BA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2007 at 14:16, Grant Stockly wrote: > If that is the case, why would the Tarbell have so many extra > chips? Also, at the time the tarbell was manufactured, would they > have even known that there was an issue with the 1771's data separation? WD made no bones about it. In the app notes for the 1771, they say: "In order to maintain an error rate better than 10**8, and(sic) external data seperator (sic) is recommended." Yes, they spell it "seperator" throughout the application notes (this was before spelling checkers appeared on Red Hill Road, I suppose). The app notes has several customer-supplied circuits for data "seperators". In point of fact, the Shugart SA-801 has an on-board one-shot data separator for FM and you'd be crazy to use it. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 13 21:17:05 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:17:05 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47394B22.7060309@msm.umr.edu> <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net> > This is where I get a little puzzled sometimes. Like that BB2 I mentioned, > that uses DMA to send a string of bytes to the disk controller chip rather > than using the processor to do those transfers. Why is not immediately > apparent to me since the processor isn't doing anything else at that point > anyhow...> Hi I once wrote code to take avantage of DMA to disk. I was doing a search that required a case insensitive search. I found that on the processor I was running, it took almost as much time to read a track as it did to search the data on the track. I'd only have to wait, doing nothing on the first read. After that, I would just have to wait a little while until the next track was read, because I'd started the second DMA before I started searching the first buffer. In a multi user system, one could be handling all kinds of activities while the buffer was being loaded. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 21:44:26 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:44:26 -0800 Subject: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. In-Reply-To: <47375E8E.1020909@sbcglobal.net> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <47375E8E.1020909@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730711131944v616129cal66d2541c2039c68c@mail.gmail.com> Bob - has anyone claimed the Apple2e cards? I'd like to try one in my Color Classic and LC. I'd be happy to pay to have them shipped out (Chicago area.) Thanks! -j On Nov 11, 2007 11:57 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have 6 or 7 boxes full of older Apple manuals, software, docs etc. for > the older MACs. I don't want to spend > time sorting through it, but am hoping someone wants it, otherwise, to > the recyclers it goes. There is at least one, > probably two or three of the Apple 2e cards for the Mac in there. If I > remember correctly, they are new in sealed boxes. > Any interest? Free of course, I can bring them to the San Jose area if > needed. > > Bob > > Santa Cruz, CA 95060 From trag at io.com Tue Nov 13 21:56:52 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:56:52 -0600 Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <200711132330.lADNUE51017305@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711132330.lADNUE51017305@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:17:41 -0600 (CST) >From: "Jeff Walther" >Subject: Re: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <12318.209.163.133.242.1194974261.squirrel at webmail.io.com> >Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:45:09 -0800 >> From: Josh Dersch >> First point of business, I discharged the CRT. >> To the main chassis. This, as I have now discovered, is not what you >> are supposed to do to discharge the CRT unless you want to destroy the >> logic board. >That particular failure is documented in Larry Pina's "Macintosh Repair >and Upgrade Secrets" and probably in "The Dead Mac Scrolls" as well. I'd >look it up for you, but I don't have my books with me here. Okay, I'm home, I have my books. It says on page 98 that discharging the CRT without a big honking resistor may blow a 74LS38N (U2) on the analog board and the LAG chip on the logic board. The former sounds like it might be fairly standard. The latter sounds like it may be one of the custom programmed PALs or GALs or whatever that Tony was writing about. I wouldn't be surprised if folks had already figured out all the internal logic for the various Mac 128/512/Plus chips though. Finding it might be a bit of a challenge. OTOH, the LAG chip may be fine and it could be U2 on the analog board that has the problem. Jeff Walther From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 13 06:48:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:48:21 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question Message-ID: <0JRG00F3T3H59XG1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:13:48 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >---------------Original Message: > >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:51:09 -0500 >From: Allison >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <0JRD004G7656LL73 at vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >> >>Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question >> From: M H Stein >> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:33:20 -0500 >> To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > > >>I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a >>relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally >>well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image >>(if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not >>even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, >>although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. > >Different FDC WILL require a different bios. Same for SERIAL IO. > >Allison > >-----------Reply: > >I think you might have misunderstood, Allison; sounds like you thought I was >talking about replacing an FDC with one other than what the BIOS is configured >for; obviously that will require mods to the BIOS. Ok, then same fdc but sufficiently differnt drive requires new (modified) bios. Changes that affect a bios: Motor on/motor runs continiously. Step rate, head load delay, motor on delay Different on disk format (likely with 8 to 5") >What I was responding to was a previous post that suggested replacing an 8" >drive with a 5 1/4" HD drive might require mods to the BIOS, and I just wanted >to mention that this is not the case with a Cromemco 16/64FDC, to which a >TM848 and a JU475 appear identical as long as the jumpers on the 5 1/4 drive >are set correctly and it supplies /READY, and that this may also apply to some >other controllers. Also, if the controller has both 8" and 5 1/4 connectors and >they are effectively in parallel as they are on the Cromemco, you may not >even need a 50<>34 pin adapter cable. if the drive supplies ready _MAYBE_. If the Drive has the same step rate. >Nevertheless, controllers meant for some of the older, non-'standard' 8" drives >probably will require changes to the BIOS, and likely also hardware mods. BTDT, drive changes ultimately a BIOS and in few cases the mods are small and most not interchangeable. Allison > >mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 13 07:10:53 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:10:53 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JRG00K5S4LGXBC9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:25:53 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Wow, a lot to go over here... Rich, if you have any problems with >your drive I might be able to help you after this exercise! : ) > >>Data is comming from the disk, however it's not readable. Possible >>reasons: >> >> NOISE, ground the drive, insure it has good power that the >> system case and it's grounds are common. Also common >> error is long drive cables (stay short for now) and cables >> (and drives) that get near CRTs. > >I'm hooking the 3.5" drive power cable directly to the output of the >7805 on the tarbell, which is getting its power from an 8v switching >power supply. The power is nice and steady at 4.95v. The only thing >I haven't done is made sure the case is grounded. Some drives had >jumpers for that, but mine doesn't. So it could be either way. BZZT!!!! NEVER! The 7805 DOES NOT have the output to support the logic and the Drive power. It might with a modern 3.5" but not any of the 5" older drives. >> Internal: 1771 requires a data seperator to recover clock and >> nice(cleaned up some) read data. The common circuits >> are oneshots and PLLs. Tarbel used oneshots. Generally >> they work well enough if set right. > >The tarbell card I have doesn't have any one shots for data >separation. The read data line goes into a L74 (Dual D Edge >Triggered Flip Flop), then goes into a LS175 (Quad D Type Flip Flop >with Direct Clear). There are two LS161 (Synchronous 4 Bit Binary >Counter) that are hooked up to parts of the LS175. There are is a >XOR gate and two NAND gates. I'm not sure what is going on at the >moment, does it seem like that pile of parts could be implementing a >PLL? I would think a PLL would be more complex than that. I'll at >least make sure all of the edges match up (Read data vs separated >clock and data) It's a oneshot done with counters rather than monostables. Better, stable and predictable. >I hope I find something obvious. I should at least see a difference >between the two tarbell cards (reliably bad vs somewhat bad). I have >a 4FDC Cromemco? It uses a 1771. I might be able to use the tarbell >driver to boot off of that. Is anything known about that card as far >as being better or worse? Make sure the logic osc is really running at the crystal frequency. >> LOGIC: problem with read/wait hardware not working or possible >> data path corruption. > >The two 3.5" drives and the 5.25" drive I have don't do anything with >the ready/disk change line at all. BUT, I know the Sony 3.5" drive >doesn't generate index pulses until the drive speeds up (I think that >is what its doing). That should affect nothing. SA400s (and others) don't generate index if teh media is not spinning (motor off, door open). >With a TEAC 235HF drive it takes 694.053ms for the drive to generate >sector pulses AFTER the drive was given a "Motor Enable" >signal. Even though the head was NOT at track 00, the drive didn't >signal that status until 491.221ms after given a "Motor Enable". So >the drive seemed to spin the motor up, tell the controller it was not >at 0, and then start issuing index pulses. Most systems that used 5.25" drives had a 1second motor delay for the motor to spin up. You dont read as soon as you see index nor does the FDC chip. >That is probably how the 3.5" disk is getting away without a ready >line. The older drives probably generated index pulses regardless of >if the drive is ready or not. These newer drives with more brains >must not make index pulses unless they are ready. Ready is one line I never used nor is it important. Use a jumper to force it true and forget it. >>your shotgunning. I've seen this for 30+ years. Doesn't work, swap >>out the big hairy chip as they must be flaky or why else put it in a >>socket? Rare if ever is that the case. > >On my second kenbak build I had a problem. First I tested all of the >ICs (digital only) but didn't find any problems so I started swapping >them all. About 3 hours after testing it started working, but then >stopped. I found a cold solder joint. Pushing around and bending >the boad "fixed" it. : ) So I fixed the joint and reinstalled all >of the old chips. : ) Probing for a missing signal might have found it faster. Pulling chips risks fatigueing sockets and also ESD to the chips (even TTL). The worst is the motion makes the problem go away only to return days later. >The main reason I swapped the 1771 was because I think I read >somewhere that its a very static sensitive part and of all of them >the most likely to go out... No more so than 8080, z80 or 765. Once in circuit the surrounding stuff further protects it. However ESD can and does kill chips that come to edge connectors. >>FYI: certain brands of sockets of the side wipe style tend to fatigue >>with insertion/removeal and some do it over time leading to failures >>where the chips are 100% good but nothing works and may be flakey >>if wiggled or moved. > >I will replace the sockets with machine pin sockets. Do so as needed. I've had to strip entire NS* MDS boards for that reason. >>DD or HD with tarbel?????? > >The tarbell is treating the 3.5" disk drive as that TM100 tandon SSSD >drive. The data rate recorded to the drive is 8.07us per bit. I'm >getting 123916 bits a second, which doesn't seem to match anything I >remember... That would be single density 5.25" rate and you at 99.1328% of correct which would be 125,000. Less than 1% slow is tolerable. >>HD media is incompatable in every way with older drives and lower >>data rates. > >My drive is a new from sony. I've made formatted and written to HD >disks with the HD hole covered. This same drive reading the same >disks does not always read. I don't know if its the tarbell's fault or not. Disks as in media or drives? Disks as in media is an issue. Better bet is older 720k stuff. FYI HD in this context is meaningless as your running at 1/2 the lowest data rate for those drives. >>Does the read loop test a status bit or hang/wait on read? > >The silly tarbell issues a "IN" to a "wait" port and the tarbell >keeps it in a wait state until the 1771 is good and ready. Kind of >makes debugging hard if the tarbell doesn't decide to stop waiting. ; ) I call that read/hang. It's the only way to go with slow CPUs. If thats the case then your disks test [program should hang if there is no data. > >>can you supply the sector read code? ( should be fairly short) > >The datasheet for the 1771 says "Upon receipt of the Read command, >the head is loaded, the BUSY status bit set, and when an ID field is >encountered that has the correct track number, correct sector number, >and correct CRC, the data field is presnted to the computer." I know that paragraph. It also means the FDC had to find and read those correctly. >Is that the sector read code you are talking about? One of those >first bytes? The data sheet says that the 1771 is capable of reading >the entire track as one big sector. Maybe I should try to make a >routine to do that. I don't know of any other way to get that code >since it isn't part of a normal read. Ah, no the software that manages the FDC. the program segment that does READ IO. > >> >The drive, tarbell, and boot disks were mailed to me from a fellow >> >enthusiast. He made all of the modifications, made the disks, >> >etc. He has tested the setup in an IMSAI (kind of) with my (kit) >> >CPU, a SSM 8080, and a ZPU at 2MHz. >> >>Kind of and exactly are differnt things. > >At least we both have a ZPU and both have one with the 2MHz >switch. So that eliminates the CPU card one shots from the >reliability question. Right? Same bus? Same ram, same Front pannel? >> > 4. With the Altair CPU and the Imsai front panel the Tarbell >> >will boot after you push reset and then push the run switch. >> >>Says the MITS FP is causing some pain. > >FP? FRONT PANNEL. >>The 8t97s worked fine for me. It has 8224? your mod or 8800B? > >That was part of a quote from him. Its not my board. I do have pictures at: >http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325 > >Its a regular Rev 0 card with some modifications. The biggest >modification is the lack of one shots. It uses an 8224. I imagine >he got this info from a vintage place somewhere because his work >looks very well planned out. Or maybe he just planned it out good! I just ripped up the osc and oneshots plus the drivers and used on of the pad areas to mount the 8224 and wired it in. One problem the 8224 can have is the crystal osc can sometime run at a harmonic of the marked freq or for the 18.384 mhz rock sometimes at a subharmonic. I found it stable but watch for it. >>The only media that should go in that drive is the brown SD/DD floppies. >>If the media was written on a 96tpi drive the noise and jitter _will_ >>be higher due to track width differences. IF the FDC oneshots are >>not quite on that makes a huge differnence. > >I've read that HD (1.44MB 3.5") disks with tape over the HD hole >aren't exactly a DD disk. Something about the track width being >narrower because of the smaller head in an HD drive? BUT, the DD >(720k 3.5") disks were formatted to 40 tracks 18 sectors, 128 bytes a >sector using an HD drive. So the DD disks wouldn't have a wide track >width to begin with. Are there really physical media differences >between DD and HD that would keep a HD disk from being used as a DD >disk when in a HD drive? The HD drive should be able to read the >narrow track written on what it thinks is a DD disk, right? Is the >magnetic material of an HD disk significantly different? the 3.5" all have the same track width. The 5.25" stuff had that wholde thing going on. What the 3.5" had was the media had a different corcivity and there were at least two differnt media and the 1.44 had a harder to write 700 orsted media vs the 720K at 600. > >Most of the information I've read about mixing media is in reference >to DD disks being written in an HD drive and then becoming unreliable >in a DD drive. I've also heard about people who add holes to disks >to make a DD disk an HD disk, which probably works for them better >than my tarbell works for me... : ) Again thats the 5.25" drives. The 3.5" world is generally less muddled for modern drives. (those that likely appeard in PCs). Allison >Thanks! > >Grant From jrr at flippers.com Tue Nov 13 13:26:26 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:26:26 -0800 Subject: Software for Data I/O 280 programmer? In-Reply-To: <47394625.5060803@msu.edu> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <369273B7-CDDA-4DE6-AAAF-0E0F0B47A599@neurotica.com> <4737752F.9050605@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4737EE39.2020703@msu.edu> <87061C46-F3F0-4BB2-8498-146BF97A96AF@neurotica.com> <4738BC02.3080701@splab.cas.neu.edu> <47394625.5060803@msu.edu> Message-ID: <4739FA62.3030206@flippers.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Excellent. I'll see if I can find a copy of PromLink to fool around > with. If you do get a chance to copy the manual, I'd love to have one > :). > > Thanks, > Josh You are welcome to visit my ftp site (go easy folks) that supports many different older test equipment. I have Promlink, stuff on Data I/O 288 (not 280 though) and lots of other test equipment files. Feel free to upload if you have anything to add please. FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/pub/TTL/ FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/pub/incoming for anything you wish to add - note this is a 'hidden' directory so you won't be able to see what is uploaded. John :-#)# > > joe heck wrote: >> The 280 manual has a whole chapter on terminal remote control and >> computer remote control, especially command format and summary. >> They recommend PromLink (tm) to operate the 280. >> >> some of the commands are enter/exit CRC mode (computer remote control) >> execute command, abort command, set nulls, set family/pinout, set >> begin device address, set begin ram address, set block size, etc. >> >> joe heck >> >> Haven't decided if I will part with manual, but may copy some... >> >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On Nov 12, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>>> If you're looking to part with the manual, let me know. >>>> Do eeprom programmers like this typically use a standard serial >>>> protocol to speak to the host PC, or is it usually proprietary per >>>> manufacturer? Anyone know what software the 280 used? >>> >>> >>> Remote control protocols are typically proprietary, but Data >>> I/O's protocol (at least for the UniFamily units, not sure about >>> the 280) is well-documented. It's important to note, however, that >>> most standalone device programmers are designed to be used >>> as...standalone units. Meaning, you control them from their keypad >>> and display. If they have a serial port (and most do, the 280 >>> definitely does) then they usually accept front-panel-initiated >>> transfer of files (usually binary, Intel hex, Motorola S-record, >>> and a few others) via Xmodem/ Ymodem/etc over the serial port. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> >> > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 13 17:06:41 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:06:41 -0500 Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem Message-ID: <0JRG00DQVW6BLKH1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem > From: JP Hindin > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:03:04 -0600 (CST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Snippage>>>>> > >The next is a 'Rex Microcomputer System', model REX-1032, "Manufactured by >Realistic Controls Corporation of Davenport, Iowa". I'm guessing this is a >kit computer that's been put together by this local company, but "Rex >Micrcomputer" gets me nothing via google and breaking it down gives me >screeds of irrelevancies. The machine has a Z80 microprocessor, although >it might have another (ala Rainbow) and I just haven't dug far enough. REX was late like 1979 to early 80s not later than 1985 time frame. They were not seen around my travels and I wondered if they were really vaporware. It's a Z80 CP/M crate. More like Robin not Rainbow. >The last is quite a beasty, weighing plenty thanks to its significantly >hefty linear power supply. Intersil Development System, ISB 80DS 3020-120. >Got six apparently serial ports on the back with what I think is a console >cable hanging out one side. What I like best is the socket mounted in the >front plate for reading/writing 24 pin DIP chips. Two 8" drives with >diskettes in them, God only knows if they're still good after sitting out >for this long. Likely a 6100 (PDP-8 in cmos) powered deveopment system though they sold 1802, 80c85 and 80C88 too. With some TLC they sould still run if rust or corrosion are not evident. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 13 18:37:22 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:37:22 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JRH00IF20DEXAR1@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:16:59 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >> > One little nasty. The 1771 has a basic ability to do data seperation. >> > I havent' looked at a tarbel board in a very long time but I do hope >> > that they didn't do the TRS80 save a buck trick and try to use that >> > internal seperator, it does NOT work. It has zero jitter tolerence. >> >>Strange. I used an unmodified TRS-80 Model 1 EI for years and never had >>any problems with the disk side of things. And that used the internal >>data separateor of the 1771 IIRC. > >If that is the case, why would the Tarbell have so many extra >chips? Also, at the time the tarbell was manufactured, would they >have even known that there was an issue with the 1771's data separation? Because the internal seperator sucked. If the user never had problems it was just dumb luck. Percom (and others) sold thousands of add on data seperator board to all the E1 users that couldn't make it work. >Just wondering why...I'm not trying to second guess anyone. Just >that if the extra ICs weren't required I can't imagine Tarbell using them??? Because they were needed. Even WD advised that it was not adaquate for many cases. Tarbell wasn't stupid, they built protos and tested them and the board they sold worked. Allison >Grant From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 13 19:28:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 20:28:04 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JRH00DO92PWQLE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:34:53 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >More to add... > >I know that writing to 3.5" HD disks with the hole covered to make >them look like DD is frowned upon, but maybe it could help determine >why I get errors with the real DD disks. > >While trying to back up my DD disks onto HD hole covered disks I got >an error. Its not the disk because I've tried two and they both fail >at the same spot. Bad write or media, or dirty head scaring disk. >Also, are DD disks the same as Single Sided 3.5" 360/400k >disks? Except for the double sided part? I use a stack (about 200) of written once disks, they have sales promo and utility on them and never distributed. Good media and easily erased. >What are good sources for DD disks TODAY, not NOS disks, but new >disks? Is athana the only place out there making DD disks? > >When copying from drive A to drive B it has an error at the end of >the disk. Is this where a data rate issue would be the worst? Inner tracks are always worst. >A>stat *.* | B>stat *.* > | >RECS BYTS EX D:FILENAME.TYP | RECS BYTS EX D:FILENAME.TYP > 0 0K 1 A:.INT | 64 8K 1 B:ASM.COM > 64 8K 1 A:ASM.COM | 96 12K 1 B:BASIC.COM > 96 12K 1 A:BASIC.COM | 8 1K 1 B:COPY.COM > 8 1K 1 A:COPY.COM | 70 9K 1 B:CPM.COM > 70 9K 1 A:CPM.COM | 38 5K 1 B:DDT.COM > 38 5K 1 A:DDT.COM | 12 2K 1 B:DISKTEST.COM > 12 2K 1 A:DISKTEST.COM | 24 3K 1 B:DUMPDSK.COM > 24 3K 1 A:DUMPDSK.COM | 48 6K 1 B:ED.COM > 48 6K 1 A:ED.COM | 4 1K 1 B:FORMAT.COM > 4 1K 1 A:FORMAT.COM | 56 7K 1 B:PIP.COM > 56 7K 1 A:PIP.COM | 0 0K 1 B:RUN.$$$ > 92 12K 1 A:RUN.COM | 24 3K 1 B:STAT.COM > 24 3K 1 A:STAT.COM | 8 1K 1 B:SYSGEN.COM > 8 1K 1 A:SYSGEN.COM | BYTES REMAINING ON B: 11K >BYTES REMAINING ON A: 0K | > | B> >A> | > >And the error: > >A>PIP B:=*.* > >COPYING - >CPM.COM >SYSGEN.COM >DDT.COM >COPY.COM >PIP.COM >ASM.COM >STAT.COM >ED.COM >FORMAT.COM >DISKTEST.COM >DUMPDSK.COM >BASIC.COM >RUN.COM >DISK WRITE ERROR: =*.* > >A: R/O, SPACE: 0K >B: R/W, SPACE: 11K > >A> > >(can't be too save with my only good boot disk, A:. :) Disk write error... likely just not making it. FYI: 3.5" disks were never meant to run at 125khz. The 720k mode is 250khz and the 1.44mh is 500khz. The read amps just may not work well down that low. Allison > >Grant From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Nov 14 00:26:59 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:26:59 -0800 Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: References: <200711132330.lADNUE51017305@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <473A9533.3090903@msu.edu> Excellent -- thanks. I'm guessing it's probably the LAG chip -- I've swapped a Mac Plus board into the 512k and it runs fine, and running the 512k in the Plus exhibits the same fault, so it's not the analog board. The LAG is labeled "HAL16R8CN 8440 / 342-0251-A" so it does look like a custom ("HAL") chip such as what Tony was mentioning. Guess that would be tough to replace, unless someone out there has the means to make a dupilicate. Bah. That'll teach me to think twice next time I think I know what I'm doing :). Thanks, Josh Jeff Walther wrote: >> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:17:41 -0600 (CST) >> From: "Jeff Walther" >> Subject: Re: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Message-ID: <12318.209.163.133.242.1194974261.squirrel at webmail.io.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >>> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:45:09 -0800 >>> From: Josh Dersch > >>> First point of business, I discharged the CRT. >>> To the main chassis. This, as I have now discovered, is not what you >>> are supposed to do to discharge the CRT unless you want to destroy the >>> logic board. > >> That particular failure is documented in Larry Pina's "Macintosh Repair >> and Upgrade Secrets" and probably in "The Dead Mac Scrolls" as well. >> I'd >> look it up for you, but I don't have my books with me here. > > Okay, I'm home, I have my books. It says on page 98 that discharging > the CRT without a big honking resistor may blow a 74LS38N (U2) on the > analog board and the LAG chip on the logic board. The former sounds > like it might be fairly standard. The latter sounds like it may be > one of the custom programmed PALs or GALs or whatever that Tony was > writing about. > > I wouldn't be surprised if folks had already figured out all the > internal logic for the various Mac 128/512/Plus chips though. Finding > it might be a bit of a challenge. > > OTOH, the LAG chip may be fine and it could be U2 on the analog board > that has the problem. > > Jeff Walther > > From grant at stockly.com Wed Nov 14 01:57:55 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:57:55 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRH00DO92PWQLE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRH00DO92PWQLE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0JRH001JTKVNBA30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >FYI: 3.5" disks were never meant to run at 125khz. The >720k mode is 250khz and the 1.44mh is 500khz. The read >amps just may not work well down that low. Do you think that it would be better if I were to get the Tarbell to run at 4MHz (250kHz)? I'd have to make a new BIOS and modify the format program. I don't have source for the format program. Does anyone off hand know where source to the Tarbell CP/M utilites could be found? I should be able to format the disk as 36 sectors 80 tracks and possibly configure it to use both sides. That would be formatting it to capacity... I'm going to write a disk image tool that dumps the disk to my computer. I could write one that also writes an image to a disk. What do you think would happen if I were to try to use the disk at 250kHz but only put half of the sectors? Will the 1771 handle the extra time or give me errors? This faster signal might be better for the disk drive? It may seem strange I'm fighting with this so hard, especially since I'm working on Altair disk drive system emulator using SD cards, but nothing beats real live hardware. : ) Grant From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 14 02:26:55 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:26:55 +0000 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRH00DO92PWQLE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRH00DO92PWQLE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1195028815.6306.7.camel@elric.inet> On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 20:28 -0500, Allison wrote: > I use a stack (about 200) of written once disks, they have sales > promo and utility on them and never distributed. Good media > and easily erased. I bought a box of 500 DSDD floppies from a guy on eBay. They appear to be new. They seem to be pretty good quality too - the cases are a bit naff and plasticky but they actually work. I still don't understand how brand new 1.44M floppies fail after two or three uses, but the 20-year-old SSDD disks for my Ensoniq Mirage are still perfectly readable. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 14 02:27:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 00:27:32 -0800 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRH001JTKVNBA30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JRH00DO92PWQLE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <0JRH001JTKVNBA30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <473A40F4.13437.1295AAB4@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2007 at 22:57, Grant Stockly wrote: > >FYI: 3.5" disks were never meant to run at 125khz. The > >720k mode is 250khz and the 1.44mh is 500khz. The read > >amps just may not work well down that low. > > Do you think that it would be better if I were to get the Tarbell to > run at 4MHz (250kHz)? Wait one darned second. There's a lot of confusion here--many vendors refer to the *data rate*, not the actual clock. Since the 1771 is an FM-only chip, that translates to 2 cells per bit time, or a 250 KHz clock rate. The frequency of the clock at pin 24 of the 1771 should be 1MHz. If it's 2MHz, it's running at the 8" rate (500KHz = data rate of 250KHz). I don't know which Tarbell card you've got, but if mine is anything like yours, Don takes a crystal at 2x the required clock and divides it down by 2 with a flip-flop (the 1771 requires a 50% duty cycle clock and is not very forgiving). On my controller, Don uses a couple of LS161s and some gates to form a data separator. I'm not thrilled with it--the bit shift on the inner tracks of your 3.5" drive are probably on the edge of causing it to lose sync. You might want to run some pattern-generating diagnostic tests to see if anything really pushes it over the edge. You can get around this by limiting your use of the inner cylinders (just tell CP/M that you've got, oh, 70 tracks instead of 80) or you can junk the onboard separator and replace it with a somewhat more modern WD9216 8-pin DIP. Let me know if any this doesn't make sense. Cheers, Chuck From lee at geekdot.com Wed Nov 14 02:29:56 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:29:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 36 - DECtalk Message-ID: <3156.84.68.40.52.1195028996.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > I picked up one of the ISA DECtalkPC's cheap a couple of weeks ago > but I'd like to get one of the externals. They're supported by just > about every accessibililty program. Perhaps it would be possible to make an external to ISA interface using a modern microcontroller. I've found that using ISA cards in small projects is fairly easy and often only needs the data and read/write select lines driven. The address can be fixed to that of the card. Lee. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 14 02:30:55 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:30:55 +0000 Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <473A9533.3090903@msu.edu> References: <200711132330.lADNUE51017305@dewey.classiccmp.org> <473A9533.3090903@msu.edu> Message-ID: <1195029055.6306.9.camel@elric.inet> On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 22:26 -0800, Josh Dersch wrote: > The LAG is labeled "HAL16R8CN 8440 / 342-0251-A" so it does look like a > custom ("HAL") chip such as what Tony was mentioning. Guess that would > be tough to replace, unless someone out there has the means to make a > dupilicate. Bah. That'll teach me to think twice next time I think I > know what I'm doing :). http://www.latticesemi.com/dynamic/view_document.cfm?document_id=102 There's not much to those chips. I'd be surprised if you couldn't suss out what it was doing fairly easily - assuming you had a working one! I *might* still have a Mac Classic board or two kicking about. I'll let you know if I find one. Gordon From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Nov 14 02:37:59 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 00:37:59 -0800 Subject: Tarbell is making In-Reply-To: <0JRH001JTKVNBA30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JRH00DO92PWQLE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <0JRH001JTKVNBA30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <473AB3E7.7090208@msm.umr.edu> I don't recall ever running a Tarbell single or double density controller in a system with a 4mhz cpu. Exception to that was running it in a Tarbell CPU equipped system I always had an Imsai backplane for what that is worth. I also had a Northstar system which I merged the BIOS with the Tarbell controller, so I could dub 8" to 5 1/4" HS floppies, and never had much problem with that. All of my Tarbell hardware was tuned up by Dick Culberson or Don for what that is worth. Both have passed away, and are not around to help with this discussion. Jim From grant at stockly.com Wed Nov 14 02:52:19 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 23:52:19 -0900 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <473A40F4.13437.1295AAB4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRH00DO92PWQLE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <0JRH001JTKVNBA30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <473A40F4.13437.1295AAB4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0JRH00936NECV1A0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 11:27 PM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >On 13 Nov 2007 at 22:57, Grant Stockly wrote: > > > >FYI: 3.5" disks were never meant to run at 125khz. The > > >720k mode is 250khz and the 1.44mh is 500khz. The read > > >amps just may not work well down that low. > > > > Do you think that it would be better if I were to get the Tarbell to > > run at 4MHz (250kHz)? > >Wait one darned second. There's a lot of confusion here--many >vendors refer to the *data rate*, not the actual clock. Since the >1771 is an FM-only chip, that translates to 2 cells per bit time, or >a 250 KHz clock rate. The frequency of the clock at pin 24 of the >1771 should be 1MHz. If it's 2MHz, it's running at the 8" rate >(500KHz = data rate of 250KHz). I'm sorry about that! : ) Right now it has a 2MHz crystal to run the 1771 at 1MHz. I forgot all about the divider... Grant From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Nov 14 09:50:24 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:50:24 -0800 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <200711140750.lAE7oVwt022020@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711140750.lAE7oVwt022020@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2007, at 11:50 PM, Chuck wrote: > Very close--I've got 3M's published specs on all of these, if anyone > cares. And 3.5 DSHD media is fairly close to DS2D; the coercivity is > somewhat higher, requiring increased write currents, but not as > drastic as the difference between 5.25" DSDD and DSHD. > It is different enough that after a couple of years DSHD media written on DSDD drives can very easily start to fade- had it happen on some DSHD floppies I wrote on a 800k Mac SE several years ago (diskettes unreadable after about 3 years). From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 14 11:48:29 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:48:29 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2007 1:56 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Well, my admittedly limited experience with stuff is that the "main" > processor isn't doing much of anything while it's waiting for I/O to complete > anyhow, or at least that's what my perception has been. Now I'll be the > first to admit that my perceptions are very much skewed toward the 8-bit > micro and crudely-done DOS-based end of things, so maybe I just need to get > a good hard look at how some other stuff is done. If the processor isn't doing other things while waiting for I/O to complete, it's either a case where 1) the OS or computer architecture doesn't allow such things, 2) the application would not be helped by doing other things during I/O, 3) cross machine compatibility prevented it from being implemented or 4) the programmer was too lazy to implement it. It the case of MS-DOS (the term DOS is insufficiently specific) it could be any of the four. Interrupt driven I/O or DMA were not available on all MS-DOS machine to all devices. If it was available, it wasn't too terribly difficult to implement non-blocking I/O by difficult to setting up a transfer and doing other things while the transfer completed. Most multitasking operating systems implement blocking and non-blocking I/O as system calls. Blocking I/O usually only blocks the calling process. The transfer is set up and a task switch is executed to transfer control to another process. Each time the process reawakens, it checks to see if the I/O is complete. If not it executes as task switch. I would assume that Multics is set up this way as well. Each time a process request I/O, the CPU tells the I/O processors what to do and then transfers control to another process. > So aside from computationally-intensive tasks what else is there for it to do? Whatever another process wants it to do. If no other process wants anything to be done, then it will execute the idle process. What the idle process does is OS dependent. It might do housekeeping tasks, it might make das blinkenlights show pretty patterns, or it might halt the processor until the next interrupt. > > In any processor with pipelining, instruction look-ahead and caching, > > branch prediction and all of those other little gimmicks that make > > execution faster, the idea of interposing interrupts that bollix up > > all of the above is pure insanity. Yet that's still how it is done. You just try to execute as few interrupts as possible by making transfers larger. Although you have to watch out because SOME operating systems will default to 1 interrupt per word transferred. Watch your key presses, because there's probably and interrupt AND a task switch every time you press one. Not that it matters that much anyway since a modern processor on non-trivial code is spending 90% of its cycles waiting for memory. A few thousand cycles for an interrupt is nothing... I'm basing that number on FLOPs per cycle for typical medium sized (64MB working set) scientific computing applications. Spending a lot of time optimizing (transposing arrays when necessary to make memory accesses ordered, precaching the correct things at the correct time, choosing not to cache the correct things at the correct time) you can get that down to 65% of the time waiting on memory. It sound like a lot of work for minimal gain, but please realize the difference between 90% waiting and 65% waiting is a factor of 3.5 in execution speed. Ah, the good old days when processor and memory operated at nearly the same speed. Maybe not so good when you consider that loading a 16 bit word on an 8086 took 10 times longer than loading a half kilobit cache line does now. -- Eric From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 14 12:40:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:40:14 -0800 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: References: <200711140750.lAE7oVwt022020@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <473AD08E.28957.14C69A78@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2007 at 7:50, Scott Quinn wrote: > It is different enough that after a couple of years DSHD media written > on DSDD drives can very easily start to fade- had it happen on some > DSHD floppies I wrote on a 800k Mac SE several years ago (diskettes > unreadable after about 3 years). I think that sounds mostly like a matter of lousy media. I just finished a job where I had about 100 Kaypro 10 diskettes recorded in 1988 on 3M 5.25" DSHD media. When I first saw them, I said "uh-oh, this is going to be bad". It wasn't. Only one diskette had an error on it--and the file was duplicated elsewhere. I was never a fan of the 400K/800K Mac recording style. Other than being a vanity platform, it afforded no storage capacity advantage over standard MFM IBM System 34-encoded disks, required a special drive and was absolutely incompatible with anything else on the market. I also tend to believe, based on my own experience, that it's nowhere near as reliable as single-speed System 34 recording. I can see where the simple GCR used on the original Apple II platform had its place in shaving a few bucks off the cost of a machine, but it should have never been carried to the Mac--which had to be *more* expensive, given the costs of custom LSI and a multispeed drive. Obviously, Apple agrees with me. It's not terribly unusual for an old Mac owner with 15-20 year old diskettes to find that only about half of them are readable. That would be exceptionally bad in the case of just about any other platform. I'm not trying to start a "Mac vs. (anything else)" fight, just stating an opinion based on my own experience over the years. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 14 12:53:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:53:20 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org>, <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <473AD3A0.26073.14D29A3B@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2007 at 9:48, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Ah, the good old days when processor and memory operated at nearly the > same speed. That hasn't been true probably since the 1950's. Core was slow compared to CPU speeds and drum was even slower, particularly if random access was employed. Modern memory is actually a closer match to CPU speed than drum ever was. That CDC 6600 I described (circa 1964) had 1 usec memory and an instruction issue rate of 100 nsec. Memory had a 10-way interleave, so it cost only 100 nsec to fetch successive words. On the STAR-100, we used 7600 core modules, interleaved and a 512-bit (actually 544 with ECC bytes) memory word size. Memory was slow in 1970 and still is. Maybe that's one of those "laws"...? Cheers, Chuck From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Wed Nov 14 13:18:06 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:18:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem In-Reply-To: <0JRG00DQVW6BLKH1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Allison wrote: > REX was late like 1979 to early 80s not later than 1985 time frame. > They were not seen around my travels and I wondered if they were really > vaporware. It's a Z80 CP/M crate. More like Robin not Rainbow. I managed to find a little more on the Rex not long after I posted to the list, naturally. I haven't got any 5.25" CP/M disks immediately handy - except for my C128, which I'm imagining isn't going to be of much use. Finding some should be too hard. > > >The last is quite a beasty, weighing plenty thanks to its significantly > >hefty linear power supply. Intersil Development System, ISB 80DS 3020-120. > >Got six apparently serial ports on the back with what I think is a console > >cable hanging out one side. What I like best is the socket mounted in the > >front plate for reading/writing 24 pin DIP chips. Two 8" drives with > >diskettes in them, God only knows if they're still good after sitting out > >for this long. > > Likely a 6100 (PDP-8 in cmos) powered deveopment system though they > sold 1802, 80c85 and 80C88 too. Now THAT interests me. When I was flipping through boards in the Intersil I did find a Z80 - so I assumed it was Z80 powered, but I suppose it's plausible it would use the Z80 for something else. How would I determine this? I know _zip_ about Intersil. > With some TLC they sould still run if rust or corrosion are not evident. I didn't get any OS disks with the Victor, although I know it runs MSDOS I'm not sure how the disks are formatted. I tried with a random diskette labelled "MSDOS" and didn't get any joy - but the machine appeared to power up and gave me an adorable little graphic of a floppy disk that blinked, presumably indicating no OS diskette - a good sign it's in some kind of working shape :) Does anyone out there have a Victor/Sirius with OS diskettes they might be able to clone for me? Muchas gracias! From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Wed Nov 14 13:18:06 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:18:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem In-Reply-To: <0JRG00DQVW6BLKH1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Allison wrote: > REX was late like 1979 to early 80s not later than 1985 time frame. > They were not seen around my travels and I wondered if they were really > vaporware. It's a Z80 CP/M crate. More like Robin not Rainbow. I managed to find a little more on the Rex not long after I posted to the list, naturally. I haven't got any 5.25" CP/M disks immediately handy - except for my C128, which I'm imagining isn't going to be of much use. Finding some should be too hard. > > >The last is quite a beasty, weighing plenty thanks to its significantly > >hefty linear power supply. Intersil Development System, ISB 80DS 3020-120. > >Got six apparently serial ports on the back with what I think is a console > >cable hanging out one side. What I like best is the socket mounted in the > >front plate for reading/writing 24 pin DIP chips. Two 8" drives with > >diskettes in them, God only knows if they're still good after sitting out > >for this long. > > Likely a 6100 (PDP-8 in cmos) powered deveopment system though they > sold 1802, 80c85 and 80C88 too. Now THAT interests me. When I was flipping through boards in the Intersil I did find a Z80 - so I assumed it was Z80 powered, but I suppose it's plausible it would use the Z80 for something else. How would I determine this? I know _zip_ about Intersil. > With some TLC they sould still run if rust or corrosion are not evident. I didn't get any OS disks with the Victor, although I know it runs MSDOS I'm not sure how the disks are formatted. I tried with a random diskette labelled "MSDOS" and didn't get any joy - but the machine appeared to power up and gave me an adorable little graphic of a floppy disk that blinked, presumably indicating no OS diskette - a good sign it's in some kind of working shape :) Does anyone out there have a Victor/Sirius with OS diskettes they might be able to clone for me? Muchas gracias! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 14 13:31:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:31:39 -0700 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473B4D1B.6010206@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Maybe not so good when you consider that loading a 16 bit word on an > 8086 took 10 times longer than loading a half kilobit cache line does > now. I got a game playing under XP and every so often you get a nice crash[1] and every thing stops cold.About the only thing that works is the power off switch on the case.Then you have the Serial Botch as another source of interupts.Some how I still get the fealing IRQ's are hack under any windows version. Ben. [1] 15 to 15 minutes or so. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 14 13:43:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:43:42 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Not that it matters that much anyway since a modern processor on > non-trivial code is spending 90% of its cycles waiting for memory. > A few thousand cycles for an interrupt is nothing... This isn't the case with some architectures. Intel's HyperThreading is designed to address this problem, but it is broken in its current implementation. Sun's Niagara architecture (UltraSPARC-T1 and -T2) deals with it successfully. > Ah, the good old days when processor and memory operated at nearly the > same speed. Those days are back, with modern architectures like UltraSPARC/ Niagara. It's very tasty stuff. Zoom! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 14 14:40:23 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:40:23 -0600 Subject: TU-81+ and KLESI help sought References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org><200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net><47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com><200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003801c826fe$95b7d2a0$6600a8c0@JWEST> My apologies if I asked this before, but still can't find the answer or any responses in my overstuffed inbox :) I have a TU-81+ that I'd like to hook up to my 11/44. 1) I can find no documentation for the KLESI-UA board (M8739). Can someone kindly point me to what the switch/jumper settings are for that board? I do see much mention of the M8739 in the TU81 manual, but nothing about jumper/switch settings. Maybe I'm just missing it :\ 2) The disc currently connected to the 11/44 has RT11 v5.04 on it. Does that version of RT11 support the KLESI-UA attached tape drive or do I need to upgrade RT11 or get an additional driver for it? Really I'm just wanting to see if the 11/44 "sees" the TU81+. I was hoping to see it under "SH DEV", but if it's not supported on 5.04 perhaps theres a toggle in I can use to see if it's there? Any suggestions or advice is most appreciated! Jay West From kth at srv.net Wed Nov 14 14:47:26 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:47:26 -0700 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <473B5EDE.5080206@srv.net> Richard wrote: > It took me a while until I figured out it was speech'ing the > Gettysburg Address. > > Having only seen someone play with a DecTalk a long time ago, how well does it's speech quality compare with the 'festival' program (available on many Linux systems)? From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 14 10:52:53 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:52:53 -0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473AD3A0.26073.14D29A3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001a01c826de$cd81f320$1004010a@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Nov 2007 at 9:48, Eric J Korpela wrote: > >> Ah, the good old days when processor and memory operated at nearly >> the same speed. > > That hasn't been true probably since the 1950's. Core was slow > compared to CPU speeds and drum was even slower, particularly if > random access was employed. Modern memory is actually a closer match > to CPU speed than drum ever was. I'm reasonably sure that the MicroVAX II (KA630) didn't use a cache because the CPU cycle time matched the memory cycle time exactly. 200ns is the time that sticks in my mind for some reason ... Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1130 - Release Date: 14/11/2007 09:27 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 14 15:15:52 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:15:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <001a01c826de$cd81f320$1004010a@uatempname> References: <001a01c826de$cd81f320$1004010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <200711142118.QAA16787@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'm reasonably sure that the MicroVAX II (KA630) didn't use a cache > because the CPU cycle time matched the memory cycle time exactly. Well, it does have cache of a kind. When I was working on my KA630 emulator, I found that it has an instruction prefetch buffer which is not cleared by setting $MAPEN. (An I-stream prefetch buffer is not a cache in one usual sense of the term, but is in another.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Nov 14 16:18:03 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:18:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: TMS 9980 Message-ID: <796751.11233.qm@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I just won a TI 9980/180M evaluation board on eBay. I was contacted by a losing bidder who apparently is in need of a 9980 processor chip. Does anyone have one for sale, or know an economical source for a single unit? --Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 14 17:30:44 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:30:44 -0600 Subject: TU-81+ and KLESI help sought References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org><200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net><47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com><200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> <003801c826fe$95b7d2a0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <001001c82716$6462f5f0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Thanks to the two folks who responded on my KLESI-UA stuff! The particular TU81 manual I was pointed to wasn't on bitsavers. It pretty much answered all my questions so far. RT11 at least sees the board at 174500 now (thanks to switch settings!). When the system boots it tried to do R MSCPCK which hangs now... probably not a good sign. If I break out of the bootstrap before that, a copy to MU0: hangs as well. Hrm.... ZTU2?? isn't happy though, I tried two different KLESI-UA's with no different results. Both halt during test 1. I guess first question is the cable. From KLESI-UA to bulkhead I had a 70-18652. The round DD50 from the tape drive plugs in to that. In looking at the docs provided, it appears I should be using a 70-19923. Aren't all these just 50 pin straight through cables, or is there a difference that is catching me? Thinking it was just 50 pins straight through with a DD50, I also tried a 70-20691 which also appears to just go straight to the DD50. Same problem with all of them. Is this supposed to be a specialty cable? Failing that... either both KLESI's are dead, or there's something seriously amiss with the TU81 itself. I shall dig into the TU81+ manual given above and see I can figure out the troubleshooting steps. Advice appreciated :) Thanks! Jay West From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 14 17:32:09 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:32:09 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2007 11:43 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 14, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > Not that it matters that much anyway since a modern processor on > > non-trivial code is spending 90% of its cycles waiting for memory. > > A few thousand cycles for an interrupt is nothing... > > This isn't the case with some architectures. Intel's > HyperThreading is designed to address this problem, but it is broken > in its current implementation. Sun's Niagara architecture > (UltraSPARC-T1 and -T2) deals with it successfully. You are correct, I should have said "modern single-threaded processor." If you multithread your application code and run it on a CPU with multiple hardware threads you should be able (best case) to turn than 90% into 90%^N where N is the number of truly independent hardware threads. In other words, with two threads each thread spends 90% of the time waiting, so overal the processor is only spending 81% of the time waiting, which would nearly double the processor performance. In reality you probably won't get there, though. Especially in Intel (Prescott?) hyperthreading where the threads share a register file and execution unit, you're lucky to get down to 87% of time waiting for memory. That also assumes you've designed your code properly so that the threads don't contend for the same cache lines. Don't know too much about the Niagara equivalent, but for my purposes (numerics) the flaw of Niagara was all the cores shared the same FPU. I guess that was fixed in Niagara II, though. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 14 17:42:56 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:42:56 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473AD3A0.26073.14D29A3B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> <473AD3A0.26073.14D29A3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2007 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Nov 2007 at 9:48, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > > Ah, the good old days when processor and memory operated at nearly the > > same speed. > > That hasn't been true probably since the 1950's. Core was slow > compared to CPU speeds and drum was even slower, particularly if > random access was employed. Modern memory is actually a closer match > to CPU speed than drum ever was. It seemed in the late 70s that microprocessor instruction speeds were pretty well matched to the memory access time. 4MHz processors and 250 ns DRAM Of course this could be an artifact of the design (the processors may have been slowed down from their potential speeds in order to match the memory speed). Now you've done it. I'm having "wait state" flashbacks. I remember being impressed by a 7.16 MHz V30 running with no wait cycles so long as you didn't want to play a game... Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 14 17:42:56 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:42:56 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473AD3A0.26073.14D29A3B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> <473AD3A0.26073.14D29A3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2007 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Nov 2007 at 9:48, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > > Ah, the good old days when processor and memory operated at nearly the > > same speed. > > That hasn't been true probably since the 1950's. Core was slow > compared to CPU speeds and drum was even slower, particularly if > random access was employed. Modern memory is actually a closer match > to CPU speed than drum ever was. It seemed in the late 70s that microprocessor instruction speeds were pretty well matched to the memory access time. 4MHz processors and 250 ns DRAM Of course this could be an artifact of the design (the processors may have been slowed down from their potential speeds in order to match the memory speed). Now you've done it. I'm having "wait state" flashbacks. I remember being impressed by a 7.16 MHz V30 running with no wait cycles so long as you didn't want to play a game... Eric From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 14 18:36:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:36:33 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org>, <473AD3A0.26073.14D29A3B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <473B2411.19724.160CD28C@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2007 at 15:42, Eric J Korpela wrote: > It seemed in the late 70s that microprocessor instruction speeds were > pretty well matched to the memory access time. 4MHz processors and > 250 ns DRAM Of course this could be an artifact of the design (the > processors may have been slowed down from their potential speeds in > order to match the memory speed). Microprocessors, yes, but the technology was still very young. Try something mature like big iron--cycle times in the tens of nanoseconds. Memory had a long way to go, then. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 14 18:00:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:00:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <200711132134.QAA03569@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 13, 7 04:31:31 pm Message-ID: > I don't know PAL/HAL chips, but if you have reason to think the circuit Basically they're the counterpart to a PROM. Both consists of an AND matrix follwed by an OR matrix. In a PROM, the AND matrix is fixed (it's called an 'address decoder' :-)), while you program the OR matrix (determine which addresses contain '1's). In a PAL the OR matrix is fixed (each output is a given number of terms ORed together), you program the AND matrix (determine which inputs/their inverses appear in each term). > is combinatorial, it's easy enough to just exhaustively probe its truth > table, and once you have that, you don't care how it's built up in > terms of gates (except, I suppose, for cases where delay times and > output glitches matter). I've never seen inside a Mac 512K, but I spent some time poking about inside a Mac+, and I assume the design is similar. The logic board cotains a 68000 processor, RAM (SIMMs in a Mac+, I believe individual RAM chips in a Mac512K), RONs, a small amount of TTL and about 8 or so PALs/HALs. I am darn sure that most, if not, all of them have sequential functions. Either by being 'registered PALs' (meaning they have D-type flip-flops on some or all of the outputs) and/or by using 'feedback terms' (the outputs of the device can be taken as inputs into the AND matrix. One thing that makes life a little easier is that there's no 'hidden state'. There are no internal flip-flops, you can't have a feedback term from anything other than an output. So if the state of the device changes, it is visible on the pins. It doesn't make life _easy_ though. Alas I can't quickly find the notes I made on the intnerals of the Mac+ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 14 18:13:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:13:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Nov 13, 7 09:56:52 pm Message-ID: > Okay, I'm home, I have my books. It says on page 98 that > discharging the CRT without a big honking resistor may blow a 74LS38N > (U2) on the analog board and the LAG chip on the logic board. The IIRC that '38 is part of the vidro drive circuit (at least it is in the Mac+). I can't rememebr what the LAG chip does, it's one of the PALs I think. My first thought, though is 'why those 2 particular chips only?' My _guess_ is that the author of said book has had to repair a couple of Macs danaged by incorrect CRT discharging, and those where the chips he found had failed. Next time it might be something else. > former sounds like it might be fairly standard. The latter sounds The 74LS38 is a standard TTL part, a quad 2-input NAND with open collector outputs. It's a very common IC. > like it may be one of the custom programmed PALs or GALs or whatever > that Tony was writing about. It is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 14 18:17:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:17:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <473A9533.3090903@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Nov 13, 7 10:26:59 pm Message-ID: > The LAG is labeled "HAL16R8CN 8440 / 342-0251-A" so it does look like a > custom ("HAL") chip such as what Tony was mentioning. Guess that would It is. The important part of the number is the '16R8' bit. That implies it's got 8 registered ouptuts and a total of 16 inputs to the AND array (8 serpate inputs and 8 feedback terms from the output pins). That, of course, accounts for 16 pins on the 20 pin package, the others are +5V, ground, a common clock input to all the flip-flops, and a common output enable signal to all the outputs). It's the same architecture as a PAL16R8, and could be replaced by a suitably-programemd GAL16V8. Not that that is any help at all without the PAL equations. I will try to find all my notes on the Mac+ (but not tonight!). I know I never figured out the PAL equations, but I might have something of use. -tony From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Wed Nov 14 19:15:56 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:15:56 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? Message-ID: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> Just wanted to update everyone on the status of the Montpelier, Idaho VAX 11/750 that was rescued last month without much in the way of included modules, except for the Systems Industries 9700 controller...and, to ask for some help. After a little effort, I think I now have the minimum boardset required to fire this baby up. But just to make sure that yours truly, a complete Unibus and big-iron VAX noob, has it figured correctly, I wanted to run my configuration by you guys before I shoot off my right foot (which would, of course, leave me with only a wrong foot). I've now got the following installed in the backplane: in CMI slot 1 (still looking for the optional L0001 FPU) L0002 (DPM) in CMI slot 2 L0003 (MIC) in CMI slot 3 L0004 (UBI) in CMI slot 4 L0008 (PCS) in CMI slot 5 L0006 (RDM) in CMI slot 6 (optional, I guess, but came with other boards) in CMI slot 7 (I pulled the SI9700 from this slot) in CMI slot 8 in CMI slot 9 L0016 (CMC2) in CMI slot 10 M8750 (1MB RAM) in 'extended' slots 11-18 (8MB total) M9202 (Unibus 'joiner') in slots 19 and 20 M7485 (DZ11) in Unibus slot 21 in Unibus slot 22 in Unibus slot 23 in Unibus slot 24 in Unibus slot 25 in Unibus slot 26 in Unibus slot 27 M9313 (Unibus Term) in Unibus slot 28 I still don't have any mass storage interfaces (to support my RA81 and/or x2 Fujitsu SuperEagles...still looking for UDA50, Dilog DU256, and/or Emulex UD33), but I was hoping that I have enough modules to start testing the CPU, anyway. I do need to review Ethan's earlier comments about properly jumpering the now empty CMI slot 7, but I'll do that before I power up. Does this look like a reasonable config for now, at least to start testing the CPU? Also... I have successfully cobbled a cable between the onboard TU58 drive (using external power) and a PDP-11/23+. (Yes, I could have used a PC with John Wilson's PUTR, but the PDP was handy...the cable works either way.) I have managed to image the four carts that were part of the rescue. So at least I know that the TU58 is operational. They're probably already 'out there', but for what it's worth, if anyone wants a copy of these images, let me know... BE-J844Q-BE VAX FORTRAN V4.4 BIN TU58 1/2 BE-M873G-BE VAX FORTRAN V4.4 BIN TU58 2/2 BE-CJ51E-BE VAX FORTRAN V4.4 BIN TU58 1/1 [help files, I think] Systems Industries 9900 VAX/VMS Installation Package v4.0 After reading through the various docs found on bitsavers.org and vt100.net/manx it appears that a standard set of TU58 DECtape II carts were included with each system. Several of these carts contained CPU and system diagnostics. I'm hoping someone has a set of these tapes imaged somewhere that I could download and give a try. According to the VAX 11/750 HW Installation and Acceptance manual, the tapes with diagnostics are: Tape 5: - ECKAL - Cache/TB - ECKAX - Cluster Exerciser - ECKAM - Memory Diagnostic Tape 6: - ECSAA - Diagnostic Supervisor - ECCBA - UBI/DW 750 Diagnostic Tape 7: - EVKAA - Hardcore Instructions Tape 8: - EVKAB - Architectural Instructions - EVKAC - Floating-Point Instructions - EVKAD - Compatibility Mode Instructions - EVKAE - Privileged Architectural Instructions Can anyone help me out? Thanks. - Jared From grant at stockly.com Wed Nov 14 19:34:45 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:34:45 -0900 Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: References: <473A9533.3090903@msu.edu> Message-ID: <0JRI0057YXPWHY30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 03:17 PM 11/14/2007, you wrote: > > The LAG is labeled "HAL16R8CN 8440 / 342-0251-A" so it does look like a > > custom ("HAL") chip such as what Tony was mentioning. Guess that would > >It is. The important part of the number is the '16R8' bit. That implies >it's got 8 registered ouptuts and a total of 16 inputs to the AND array >(8 serpate inputs and 8 feedback terms from the output pins). That, of >course, accounts for 16 pins on the 20 pin package, the others are +5V, >ground, a common clock input to all the flip-flops, and a common output >enable signal to all the outputs). > >It's the same architecture as a PAL16R8, and could be replaced by a >suitably-programemd GAL16V8. Not that that is any help at all without the >PAL equations. > >I will try to find all my notes on the Mac+ (but not tonight!). I know I >never figured out the PAL equations, but I might have something of use. There are equations for the PALs on my website: http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6 From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Nov 14 19:36:40 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:36:40 -0800 Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> References: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <473BA2A8.7090308@mindspring.com> J Blaser wrote: > ... > > I've now got the following installed in the backplane: > > in CMI slot 1 (still looking for the optional L0001 FPU) > L0002 (DPM) in CMI slot 2 > L0003 (MIC) in CMI slot 3 > L0004 (UBI) in CMI slot 4 > L0008 (PCS) in CMI slot 5 > L0006 (RDM) in CMI slot 6 (optional, I guess, but came with other boards) > in CMI slot 7 (I pulled the SI9700 from this slot) > in CMI slot 8 > in CMI slot 9 > L0016 (CMC2) in CMI slot 10 > > M8750 (1MB RAM) in 'extended' slots 11-18 (8MB total) > > M9202 (Unibus 'joiner') in slots 19 and 20 > M7485 (DZ11) in Unibus slot 21 Are you sure this is a DZ11? A DZ11 RS232 is an M7819. An M7845 is half the board set for a UDA50. It also has a 40p ribbon connector (like a DZ11) but that is just used for board-board communication in the set. > in Unibus slot 22 > in Unibus slot 23 > in Unibus slot 24 > in Unibus slot 25 > in Unibus slot 26 > in Unibus slot 27 > M9313 (Unibus Term) in Unibus slot 28 > From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Wed Nov 14 19:44:52 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:44:52 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <473BA2A8.7090308@mindspring.com> References: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> <473BA2A8.7090308@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <473BA494.5050400@rogerwilco.org> Don North wrote: > >> M9202 (Unibus 'joiner') in slots 19 and 20 >> M7485 (DZ11) in Unibus slot 21 > > Are you sure this is a DZ11? A DZ11 RS232 is an M7819. An M7845 is > half the > board set for a UDA50. It also has a 40p ribbon connector (like a > DZ11) but > that is just used for board-board communication in the set. Oops! Transciption typo! You are absolutely correct, and what I *do* have is indeed an M7819 in slot 21. Doh! - Jared From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 22:22:26 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:22:26 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <4739B486.25787.10712EA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> <4739B486.25787.10712EA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711142322.26202.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 November 2007 17:28, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Nov 2007 at 16:56, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Well, my admittedly limited experience with stuff is that the "main" > > processor isn't doing much of anything while it's waiting for I/O to > > complete anyhow, or at least that's what my perception has been. Now > > I'll be the first to admit that my perceptions are very much skewed > > toward the 8-bit micro and crudely-done DOS-based end of things, so > > maybe I just need to get a good hard look at how some other stuff is > > done. > > Well, why have a multi-gigahertz CPU if you're not going to do > computationally intensive things with it? A lot of graphics and > multimedia is very computationally intensive in today's world, even > with gigaflop GPUs. I don't have anything here nearly that fast. This is a 500 MHz machine, and my _server_ is a K6-200. I have a few other boards that I need to test, and set up some newer stuff, but mostly I'm a ways behind the bleeding edge... > In the CDC 6600, I should probably say that Seymour Cray rigged things to > give the *appearance* of 10 PPUs. Core back then was 1 microsecond and the > CPU used it interleaved by a factor of 10, so a cycle time of 100 nsec was > possible. The "10" PPUs all shared a common ALU--each had its own 1 > microsecond 4Kx12 bit memory, P-counter and accumulator, and each took a > turn in the "barrel" so that each appeared to be an independent CPU. Access > to central memory (60 bits wide) by the PPUs was obtained through what was > called the "read-write pyramid" where up to 5 CPU words could be in various > stages of assembly or disassembly. It was very slick. Since some really fast static RAM parts are out there these days (stuff that can be pulled off old 386 and 486 boards ferinstance) maybe I can play some of those sort of games with some 8-bit parts that have comparatively long cycle times... :-) > And yes, in its day, the 6600 was considered to be a computational > "monster" that used a lot of the tricks we use today to speed up CPU > execution. Slow functional units were segmented (early pipelining), > there was a read-ahead cache for instructions, so it was possible to > keep small loops entirely in cache, and elegant scheduling method was > used to control instruction scheduling. And the instruction set > itself was very simple; some refer to it as very RISC-like. There was a lot of clever thought and a lot of elegance in early hardware and software that seems sadly lacking in more current stuff. My recent comment about WordStar's so apparently seamless switch from all-in-memory to using a bunch of disk space I commented on recently being one example. I have patched the living hell out of the copy of ws.com I used, doing all sorts of stuff to it -- because I could! :-) Sure it took some doing, but these days a lot of knowledge of that sort seems to be just about lost completely. :-( > All this with core and discrete transistors, yet. Yup... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 22:23:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:23:47 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <20071113150500.G26993@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071113150500.G26993@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711142323.47643.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 November 2007 18:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > One little nasty. The 1771 has a basic ability to do data seperation. > > Well, it purports to. > The quality of the internal data separation sometimes leaves a bit to be > desired. Percom sold an astonishing number of add-on data separator > sandwich boards to TRS80 owners. > > Then they switched to selling a sandwich board that added a 179x for > double density, while still retaining the 1771, for the oddball DAMs that > it could provide (needed for TRS80) What was oddball about DRAM (Is that what you meant?) for those machines? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 22:29:59 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:29:59 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 November 2007 18:17, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > An even better example is the C-64. The disk drives on that are > > netoriously slow, but were computers in their own right, having a CPU as > > part of the drive electronics. One trick (assuming you have at least two > > disk drives) was to program the disk drives to copy a disk, > > The 64 was emblematic of the best and worst features of this. The > intelligent serial peripherals could talk amongst each other, such as > the disk drive becoming commanded to TALK and the printer to LISTEN, > which is essentially a print spooler. This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have the lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a copying process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on going. > On the other hand, there was the 6551 ACIA emulation in software for > the user port, which was buggy to boot. People may make fun of the Plus/4 > but at least it had a real ACIA. They did? (Looking in handy box of manuals, but plus 4 isn't in there...) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 22:36:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:36:47 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 November 2007 22:17, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: rtellason at verizon.net> > This is where I get a little puzzled > > sometimes. Like that BB2 I mentioned, > that uses DMA to send a string of > > bytes to the disk controller chip rather > than using the processor to do > > those transfers. Why is not immediately > apparent to me since the > > processor isn't doing anything else at that point > anyhow...> Why does your quoting not handle line breaks well? > Hi > I once wrote code to take avantage of DMA to disk. I was doing a search > that required a case insensitive search. I found that on the processor > I was running, it took almost as much time to read a track as it > did to search the data on the track. I'd only have to wait, doing > nothing on the first read. After that, I would just have to wait a > little while until the next track was read, because I'd started > the second DMA before I started searching the first buffer. That makes sense. > In a multi user system, one could be handling all kinds of > activities while the buffer was being loaded. Multi-user in an 8-bit context doesn't sound real terrific to me, for some reason, though I don't see a problem with multiprocessing if it's done right. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 14 22:44:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:44:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tarbell helped make me insane In-Reply-To: <200711142323.47643.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20071113150500.G26993@shell.lmi.net> <200711142323.47643.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071114203341.E5135@shell.lmi.net> > > Then they switched to selling a sandwich board that added a 179x for > > double density, while still retaining the 1771, for the oddball DAMs that > > it could provide (needed for TRS80) > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > What was oddball about DRAM (Is that what you meant?) for those machines? Well, I'm sure that there ARE some oddball DRAMs, but that ISN'T what I meant. DAM is Data Address Mark. Oversimplifying just enough to offend the experts, . . . it is a slightly "out of spec" byte (such as missing a clock pulse) that can be used to provide an out-of-band signal to the disk controller, to mark the start of a block of data. The 1771 could provide a bunch of different ones. The 179x could provide some, but not all of the ones that the 1771 could handle. Unfortunately, Model I TRS-DOS (1771) used some that the 179x could not create. Therefore, there wasn't any practical way to create a disk using a 179x that UNMODIFIED Model I TRS-DOS could handle. There are unconfirmed stories that the reason that TRS-DOS used "oddball" ones was due to a misprint on a spec sheet. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 14 22:45:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:45:13 -0800 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <200711142323.47643.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <20071113150500.G26993@shell.lmi.net>, <200711142323.47643.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473B5E59.13163.16F07AFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2007 at 23:23, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > What was oddball about DRAM (Is that what you meant?) for those machines? No, he means DAM - Data Address Mark. It's a combination of data and clock bits that marks the start of the data portion of a sector. Normally this would not be encountered elsewhere. For example, the "normal" DAM for FM disks is FB with a C7 clock. But the 1771 could write DAMs with values from F8 to FB. IIRC (I'd have to go back to my notes to make sure), the TRS-80 marked directory sectors with a DAM of FA. Now, a DAM of FA is no problem with the 179x FDC, except that the 1771 returned a two-bit status giving record type, but the 1791 collapses this to one bit. So the 1791 can't tell the difference between an FA and FB DAM, so the 1771 is needed for those old TRS-DOS diskettes that use the FA=directory sector scheme. A case where a programmer being "clever" came back to bite the vendor. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 22:47:28 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:47:28 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > On Tuesday 13 November 2007 22:17, dwight elvey wrote: >>> From: rtellason at verizon.net>> This is where I get a little puzzled >>> sometimes. Like that BB2 I mentioned,> that uses DMA to send a string of >>> bytes to the disk controller chip rather> than using the processor to do >>> those transfers. Why is not immediately> apparent to me since the >>> processor isn't doing anything else at that point> anyhow...> > > Why does your quoting not handle line breaks well? > Hi It is the new improved Hotmail. If I forget to select plain text each time, it does this. I've noticed that a few others are having the same problem. I'll try to do better. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 14 22:47:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:47:26 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com>, <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2007 at 23:29, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have the > lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a copying > process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on going. Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). Cheers, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 22:58:52 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:58:52 -0600 Subject: TU-81+ and KLESI help sought In-Reply-To: <001001c82716$6462f5f0$6600a8c0@JWEST> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> <003801c826fe$95b7d2a0$6600a8c0@JWEST> <001001c82716$6462f5f0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <624966d60711142058s694759b7q45e8512a2f3dbdc0@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jay, I'm still up to my neck in you know what, and am sorry about not getting back to you sooner. I'll still have to verify, but I think the TU81+ was set up for cluster systems, and the TU81 was for stand alone. Paul On 11/14/07, Jay West wrote: > > Thanks to the two folks who responded on my KLESI-UA stuff! The particular > TU81 manual I was pointed to wasn't on bitsavers. It pretty much answered > all my questions so far. > > RT11 at least sees the board at 174500 now (thanks to switch settings!). > When the system boots it tried to do R MSCPCK which hangs now... probably > not a good sign. If I break out of the bootstrap before that, a copy to > MU0: > hangs as well. Hrm.... > > ZTU2?? isn't happy though, I tried two different KLESI-UA's with no > different results. Both halt during test 1. > > I guess first question is the cable. From KLESI-UA to bulkhead I had a > 70-18652. The round DD50 from the tape drive plugs in to that. In looking > at > the docs provided, it appears I should be using a 70-19923. Aren't all > these > just 50 pin straight through cables, or is there a difference that is > catching me? Thinking it was just 50 pins straight through with a DD50, I > also tried a 70-20691 which also appears to just go straight to the DD50. > Same problem with all of them. Is this supposed to be a specialty cable? > > Failing that... either both KLESI's are dead, or there's something > seriously > amiss with the TU81 itself. I shall dig into the TU81+ manual given above > and see I can figure out the troubleshooting steps. Advice appreciated :) > > Thanks! > > Jay West > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 14 23:01:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:01:11 -0700 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473BD297.5020706@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Multi-user in an 8-bit context doesn't sound real terrific to me, for some > reason, though I don't see a problem with multiprocessing if it's done > right. Well the idea of muilt-processing on a 8 bit cpu (6809) sounds nice. You know a floppy, hard drive, serial I/O (low speed) all going at once could help a user use software effectively. Still waiting ... too bad GIMIX is not around anymore. Ben alias woodelf PS. I don't want a COCO 3 instead, I want a REAL computer. (Well I have PDP 8 for my real *classic* computer :). From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 14 23:04:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:04:50 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org>, , <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473B62F2.13261.17026E31@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2007 at 23:36, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Multi-user in an 8-bit context doesn't sound real terrific to me, for some > reason, though I don't see a problem with multiprocessing if it's done > right. It could be remarkably good, but you have to work within the limitations of the architecture. The x80 CPUs didn't have any good way to dynamically relocate code and data and had a fairly small addressing space. We simply went to a (pcode-type) interpreter that serviced all of the users. It cut down on redundant code and since we were executing BASIC programs, the speed penalty wasn't too awful. I received a note last week from a one-time customer in Japan who mentioned that they were talking about phasing out the old code they'd written back in the 80's for the system we wrote in 1979 for an 8085 (supporting 5 users) and later ported to SCO Xenix. He remarked that they'd added to the programs over the years with no problems. This is more than 20 years after the company offering the language went out of business. I've still got the source code somewhere. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 23:18:44 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:18:44 -0500 Subject: Tarbell helped make me insane In-Reply-To: <20071114203341.E5135@shell.lmi.net> References: <200711142323.47643.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071114203341.E5135@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711150018.45101.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 14 November 2007 23:44, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Then they switched to selling a sandwich board that added a 179x for > > > double density, while still retaining the 1771, for the oddball DAMs > > > that it could provide (needed for TRS80) > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > What was oddball about DRAM (Is that what you meant?) for those machines? > > Well, I'm sure that there ARE some oddball DRAMs, but that ISN'T what I > meant. > > DAM is Data Address Mark. Ok. I'm glad I asked. :-) > Oversimplifying just enough to offend the experts, . . . > it is a slightly "out of spec" byte (such as missing a clock pulse) that > can be used to provide an out-of-band signal to the disk controller, > to mark the start of a block of data. > The 1771 could provide a bunch of different ones. > The 179x could provide some, but not all of the ones that the 1771 could > handle. This is interesting, I had no idea about those differences between those two parts. > Unfortunately, Model I TRS-DOS (1771) used some that the 179x could not > create. Therefore, there wasn't any practical way to create a disk > using a 179x that UNMODIFIED Model I TRS-DOS could handle. Makes sense. > There are unconfirmed stories that the reason that TRS-DOS used "oddball" > ones was due to a misprint on a spec sheet. Heaven only knows, at this point. I don't recall having those 17xx parts in the datasheets yet, I guess I'll have to dig some up and add them in there. I also remember one that I think I ran into in some of the Osborne stuff -- MB8877 sounds about right -- that seemed to be equivalent to one of those. And there was some common data separator part I used to run into all the time, too -- 9316 sound at all familiar? I forget if that's it or not but at one point in time I found myself with three different machines and all three of them had the same FDC and data separator chips in them. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 23:20:40 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:20:40 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 14 November 2007 23:47, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Nov 2007 at 23:29, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have > > the lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a > > copying process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on > > going. > > Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into > some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of having a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even possible? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 23:23:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:23:22 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473BD297.5020706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> <473BD297.5020706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711150023.22351.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 00:01, woodelf wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Multi-user in an 8-bit context doesn't sound real terrific to me, for > > some reason, though I don't see a problem with multiprocessing if it's > > done right. > > Well the idea of muilt-processing on a 8 bit cpu (6809) sounds > nice. You know a floppy, hard drive, serial I/O (low speed) all going > at once could help a user use software effectively. > Still waiting ... too bad GIMIX is not around anymore. That name does sound vaguely familiar, though I couldn't tell you anything more than that. > Ben alias woodelf > PS. I don't want a COCO 3 instead, I want a REAL computer. > (Well I have PDP 8 for my real *classic* computer :). Well, there were pluses and minuses about the CoCo. The big minus for me was that the basic machine all by itself wasn't up to doing much. And by the time you got everything al ltricked out, you were talking some decidedly nontrivial money... OTOH, that setup was actually pretty neat, once you got there. Or so it seemed to me anyway, looking it it from the outside. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 23:27:30 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:27:30 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473B62F2.13261.17026E31@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B62F2.13261.17026E31@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711150027.30422.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 00:04, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Nov 2007 at 23:36, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Multi-user in an 8-bit context doesn't sound real terrific to me, for > > some reason, though I don't see a problem with multiprocessing if it's > > done right. > > It could be remarkably good, but you have to work within the > limitations of the architecture. Maybe it was some fairly negative comments about MP/M I was remembering... > The x80 CPUs didn't have any good way to dynamically relocate code and data > and had a fairly small addressing space. I guess that depended a lot on how you coded things. The biggest single thing that jumps out at me being absolute addresses, and I guess that it's possible to avoid those to an extent. And if stuff was modular enough you could make some small but effective modules that wouldn't take up all that much room. Wasn't that what ZCPR was trying to do? At least that's the impression I'm left with after having browsed some doc files, and that wasn't recently... > We simply went to a (pcode-type) interpreter that serviced all of the > users. It cut down on redundant code and since we were executing > BASIC programs, the speed penalty wasn't too awful. Ok. > I received a note last week from a one-time customer in Japan who > mentioned that they were talking about phasing out the old code > they'd written back in the 80's for the system we wrote in 1979 for > an 8085 (supporting 5 users) and later ported to SCO Xenix. He > remarked that they'd added to the programs over the years with no > problems. This is more than 20 years after the company offering the > language went out of business. That's impressive! > I've still got the source code somewhere. For the 8085? I'd be interested in seeing that, if that would turn out to be convenient. I've always sort of liked that chip for some odd reason. What else in terms of hardware did the system have that you ran this stuff on? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Nov 14 23:30:53 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:30:53 -0800 Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and IntersilDevelopmentSystem References: Message-ID: <473BD98E.92EAAAE1@cs.ubc.ca> JP Hindin wrote: > On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Allison wrote: > > Likely a 6100 (PDP-8 in cmos) powered deveopment system though they > > sold 1802, 80c85 and 80C88 too. > > Now THAT interests me. When I was flipping through boards in the Intersil > I did find a Z80 - so I assumed it was Z80 powered, but I suppose it's > plausible it would use the Z80 for something else. How would I determine > this? > I know _zip_ about Intersil. Intersil was an early manufacturer/proponent of LSI CMOS and very-low-power stuff, starting IIRC ~mid/late 70's. Along with the 6100 they made chips like LCD drivers, single-chip A/D converters/display drivers for DVMs, very-low-power voltage regulators and CMOS op amps, etc. I think their technological/market peak could be said to have been in the early/mid-80s, after which their specialty/niche became more commonplace in chip design. I haven't looked into what became of the company. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 23:32:49 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:32:49 -0500 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... Message-ID: <200711150032.49524.rtellason@verizon.net> Didn't that "Superbrain" computer use a couple of Z80 chips in there? IIRC, one was the "main" CPU and the other one handled I/O tasks of some sort (disk?). I had a guy come into my shop one time wanting a couple of those fixed, but I could find *no* data on them at the time and therefore couldn't do too much for him... Are there docs out there for this beast? I'm just wondering how they divided things up between the two CPU chips, and how they interfaced things... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Nov 14 23:36:38 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:36:38 -0600 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473BDAE6.4000209@mdrconsult.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 14 November 2007 23:47, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 14 Nov 2007 at 23:29, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have >>> the lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a >>> copying process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on >>> going. >> Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into >> some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). > > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of having > a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even possible? Possible, and has been done fairly often in storage arrays. Google "multi-initiator scsi" and rock on. :) Doc From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 14 23:37:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:37:45 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com>, <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473B6AA9.22200.17209253@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 0:20, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of having > a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even possible? Absolutely, as long as the two (or more) host adapters have different addresses. There are some computer systems that share disk units in that manner. Of course, the driver software on all hosts needs to be aware of the need. AFAIK, one can even talk controller-to- controller. The problem with multiple controllers arises when low-end or spottily implemented driver software is used. For example, it's the rare cheap SCSI card that will respond to an IDENTIFY--or even allow one to change the host address. Let's see ya do that with IDE/ATA! Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 14 23:44:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:44:51 -0600 Subject: TU-81+ and KLESI help sought References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org><200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net><47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com><200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net><003801c826fe$95b7d2a0$6600a8c0@JWEST><001001c82716$6462f5f0$6600a8c0@JWEST> <624966d60711142058s694759b7q45e8512a2f3dbdc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001601c8274a$a831d380$6600a8c0@JWEST> Paul wrote... > I'm still up to my neck in you know what, and am sorry about not getting > back to you sooner. No problem at all. > I'll still have to verify, but I think the TU81+ was > set up for cluster systems, and the TU81 was for stand alone. If I'm reading the manuals right, you're thinking of the difference between TU81 and TA81. TU81 was TMSCP while TA81 "supported" multiple hosts via STI/HSC. I think the difference between TU81 and TU81+ is that the + version has a cache to help keep the unit streaming? Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 14 23:54:21 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:54:21 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> References: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <200711150054.22110.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 14 November 2007 20:15, J Blaser wrote: > After a little effort, I think I now have the minimum boardset > required to fire this baby up. But just to make sure that yours > truly, a complete Unibus and big-iron VAX noob, has it figured > correctly, I wanted to run my configuration by you guys before I > shoot off my right foot (which would, of course, leave me with only a > wrong foot). If you want some reference information, I assembled information from other pages, and information I discovered myself while setting up my 11/750, and have it here: http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/ > I've now got the following installed in the backplane: > > in CMI slot 1 (still looking for the optional L0001 FPU) > L0002 (DPM) in CMI slot 2 > L0003 (MIC) in CMI slot 3 > L0004 (UBI) in CMI slot 4 > L0008 (PCS) in CMI slot 5 > L0006 (RDM) in CMI slot 6 (optional, I guess, but came with other > boards) in CMI slot 7 (I pulled the SI9700 from this slot) > in CMI slot 8 > in CMI slot 9 > L0016 (CMC2) in CMI slot 10 > > M8750 (1MB RAM) in 'extended' slots 11-18 (8MB total) This sounds reasonable. There are jumpers on the CMI backplane, which you will need to set appropriately, both to tell the system that you have an RDM card (though I'd probably just pull it out, but you'll still want to check that it's set properly), and for the CMI option slots (7-9). If I recall, all the information necessary should be printed on labels attached to the steel cover over the backplane, behind the back door of the VAX. In any case, if it's missing, I have a photograph of the label, which looks readable enough to me, on my site, above. > M9202 (Unibus 'joiner') in slots 19 and 20 > M7485 (DZ11) in Unibus slot 21 > in Unibus slot 22 > in Unibus slot 23 > in Unibus slot 24 > in Unibus slot 25 > in Unibus slot 26 > in Unibus slot 27 > M9313 (Unibus Term) in Unibus slot 28 You will need to have G727 or G7273 grant continuity cards in all of the empty slots. However, you should be able to do some basic tests without it, as the UNIBUS is a secondary CPU on the VAX, the processor will still function even with a messed-up UNIBUS (at least to some extent). You probably won't get too far in booting anything, though, with a broken UNIBUS grant chain. > I still don't have any mass storage interfaces (to support my RA81 > and/or x2 Fujitsu SuperEagles...still looking for UDA50, Dilog DU256, > and/or Emulex UD33), but I was hoping that I have enough modules to > start testing the CPU, anyway. A UDA50 probably will be easier to find, though a 3rd party interface (as long as it's not SCSI) will probably be cheaper if you can find one. :) > After reading through the various docs found on bitsavers.org and > vt100.net/manx it appears that a standard set of TU58 DECtape II > carts were included with each system. Several of these carts > contained CPU and system diagnostics. I'm hoping someone has a set > of these tapes imaged somewhere that I could download and give a try. I might have some tape images...somewhere. I found them online somewhere, quite a few years ago, but can't find them anymore. I'm not sure what I have though, they may be more like VMS standalone backup tapes, or something else. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 00:15:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:15:09 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150027.30422.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org>, <473B62F2.13261.17026E31@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711150027.30422.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473B736D.8383.1742CFF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 0:27, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > The x80 CPUs didn't have any good way to dynamically relocate code and data > and had a fairly small addressing space. > > I guess that depended a lot on how you coded things. The biggest single thing > that jumps out at me being absolute addresses, and I guess that it's > possible to avoid those to an extent. And if stuff was modular enough you > could make some small but effective modules that wouldn't take up all that > much room. Wasn't that what ZCPR was trying to do? At least that's the > impression I'm left with after having browsed some doc files, and that > wasn't recently... I'd call MP/M "static" relocation--once you loaded a program, you couldn't move it. MP/M used the simple scheme of assembling a program twice--one off by 100H locations from the original one. Compare the two, build a bitmap of the differences and you've got a primitive relocation map. But once the program is loaded, the map is useless--you have no way of knowing what addresses have been generated during execution. To make the best use of available memory, you have to be able to move active programs to make room for other ones. If you *really* want to do things right, you can load and unload programs to disk. JRT Pascal did this pretty well--and it was p-code interpreted. The other approaches were more hardware oriented--use bankswitched memory to change context or multiple CPUs, one per user (e.g. Molecular). Neither takes the best advantage of available resources. Pcode allows you to do something that compiling to native code doesn't--the ability to design your own machine. For example, instead of having your P-code instructions reference locations in memory, you can substitute an ordinal into a local descriptor table, where all of the good stuff about a variable is kept (e.g. string length, data type, dimension, location, etc.). When you need to move, you know where to find all of the stuff that needs adjustment. Your subroutines can be ordinals into table of descriptors that may, for example, tell the interpreter that a subroutine isn't present in memory yet. To the programmer, it all looks seamless; no silly "CHAIN" statements--the interpreter does it all for you. And, as long as you don't pollute your P-code, it's portable to just about any platform. > For the 8085? I'd be interested in seeing that, if that would turn out to be > convenient. I've always sort of liked that chip for some odd reason. What > else in terms of hardware did the system have that you ran this stuff on? An 8085 running at (IIRC) about 4MHz, between 64 and 256KB of page- mapped memory (1K pages). Console with keyboard and CRT controller and 4 async comm terminals. The usual hard disk and floppies; a printer. When it was moved to the 286, the runtime was reworked to run under SCO and use special-firmware Beehive terminals. In the compiler, we avoided writing a ton of 8085 assembly by abstracting the compiling process into a "compiling machine" with its own (fairly abstract) instruction set. You write the compiler in it, then code a small interpreter to get it going and debugged, then change the interpreted instructions into macros and generated code directly. We wrote the macro processor in PL/M--and later in C. I'd like to take credit for having the inspriation, but I learned it from a fellow who worked on the original IBM COMTRAN project and developed his own methodology for cranking out COBOL compilers very quickly. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Nov 15 00:25:26 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:25:26 -0600 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <473BE656.5070602@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > However, I am saddened by a classic computer that will never be turned on > again. Computers are not fine art, they are machines that should be run > (and for that matter, I feel that fine art should be viewed, not stored > in a vault). As much as Tony is a hardware guy, I'm a software guy on the other end of the spectrum. And yet I wholeheartedly agree with this, to the point where pretty much all of my hobbyist programming is done on old iron. It's not enough that I use my old machines; I have to make them jump through new hoops :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 00:28:12 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:28:12 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <473BE656.5070602@oldskool.org> References: <473BE656.5070602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Did anyone notice that the same fellow just sold a second C65 for $5000 and to the same guy no less. I wonder if he's going for the treble... -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 00:30:35 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:30:35 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473BDAE6.4000209@mdrconsult.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <473BDAE6.4000209@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200711150130.35911.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 00:36, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into > >> some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). > > > > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of > > having a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even > > possible? > > Possible, and has been done fairly often in storage arrays. > > Google "multi-initiator scsi" and rock on. :) Hehe. Did that and the first two hits say "not recommended" and "not supported" in the text that google is showing me there... Another thought, though, is that might make for some interesting possibilities with that Bigboard II, which has that SASI port that seems (as far as I can tell from just looking at signal names) to be fairly compatible with SCSI, maybe hooking _that_ into a SCSI bus might have some serious uses. Sure beats trying to transfer any nontrivial amount of data over a serial link, and has the potential for going one heck of a lot faster! So many things to look at, and never enough time... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 00:36:20 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:36:20 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473B6AA9.22200.17209253@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B6AA9.22200.17209253@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711150136.20732.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 00:37, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2007 at 0:20, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of > > having a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even > > possible? > > Absolutely, as long as the two (or more) host adapters have different > addresses. There are some computer systems that share disk units in > that manner. Of course, the driver software on all hosts needs to be > aware of the need. AFAIK, one can even talk controller-to- > controller. What I was thinking... > The problem with multiple controllers arises when low-end or spottily > implemented driver software is used. I guess that depends on what platform we're talking too. I really hate the idea of having to just go out and snag a driver off the 'net for something and hope it works (the usual windoze approach?) but with linux being one of the platforms in question the source is right at hand. > For example, it's the rare cheap SCSI card that will respond to an > IDENTIFY-- That a software or hardware issue? (It's been a *really* long time since I've looked at the details of that stuff.) > or even allow one to change the host address. I don't think I've had too much of a problem with that, but then most of what I have on hand here is Adaptec stuff, some of it ISA, some PCI. And then as I mentioned in that other post, there's the SASI port on the BIgboard II, which at this point is nothing at all, but seems to offer some nontrivial potential... > Let's see ya do that with IDE/ATA! :-) The only reason I use as much of that stuff as I do is because I keep getting it basically for free. And it's handy. But I am accumulating a pile of SCSI stuff too. Including a whole mess of 2G drives -- anybody have a need for those? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Nov 15 00:35:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:35:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200711150639.BAA27331@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility > of having a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that > even possible? Yes. However, a lot of host adapters do not support target mode, and some don't even support using an ID other than 7. The former is somewhere between ignorable and fatally crippling, depending on what you want to do; the latter is fatal. (Well, almost; I have toyed with the idea of wiring up the data lines in a different order, and permuting the bits in software to make up for it, so that each bit of SCSI hardware thinks it is ID 7. But I've never tried doing it; it's possible there's some reason it couldn't work....) After all, the only special thing about a host adapter is that it usually is an initiator rather than a target (in most systems, it is the only device that is ever an initiator, and is never a target). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 15 00:43:49 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:43:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Nov 14, 7 11:29:59 pm" Message-ID: <200711150643.lAF6hnkD031808@floodgap.com> > > On the other hand, there was the 6551 ACIA emulation in software for > > the user port, which was buggy to boot. People may make fun of the Plus/4 > > but at least it had a real ACIA. > > They did? (Looking in handy box of manuals, but plus 4 isn't in there...) Yup. Memory escapes me, but I think Commodore even managed to screw that up somehow with some lines missing or something (Jim Brain might know, I can't find my Plus/4 notes a/t/m). Still, I used a Plus/4 as a terminal for awhile until I got a SwiftLink. That Plus/4 even did the apartment budget back then. Not a bad computer, and the graphics were nice, just strange and incompatible. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Only death cures stupidity! -- "Cowboy Bebop: The Movie" ------------------- From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Nov 15 01:01:06 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:01:06 -0800 Subject: Multics thread a bit off topic... can someone re-title it to Multi Processor (maybe i missed three or 4 other threads too). In-Reply-To: <200711150643.lAF6hnkD031808@floodgap.com> References: <200711150643.lAF6hnkD031808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <473BEEB2.7040508@msm.umr.edu> The Multics source code release will let people enjoy such fun stories as the Latin error message that came out occasionally when booting the system http://www.multicians.org/hodie-natus-est.html I believe there are quite a number of source modules with Latin comments as well. I know that a lot of people have concerns about an emulator being possible due to the number of processors that have to be emulated, but one only has to look as far as the Mame emulator to see that is not so big a deal. The real problem will be finding the information to figure out what each component really has to do, since Multics was a study in how to get things working even if it was not working so well. Not exactly the approach that can be used for IBM hardware used where one just has to have access to the POO and you can get an emulator pretty much going. Jim From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 14 05:57:57 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:57:57 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JRH00CQ8VGHGFF0@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:26:55 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 20:28 -0500, Allison wrote: > >> I use a stack (about 200) of written once disks, they have sales >> promo and utility on them and never distributed. Good media >> and easily erased. > >I bought a box of 500 DSDD floppies from a guy on eBay. They appear to >be new. They seem to be pretty good quality too - the cases are a bit >naff and plasticky but they actually work. > >I still don't understand how brand new 1.44M floppies fail after two or >three uses, but the 20-year-old SSDD disks for my Ensoniq Mirage are >still perfectly readable. > >Gordon I had that a work once it was dust in the drives scaring the disks after one or two uses. Reaaon, PC suck air out of the box, where does it come in? Any ways it can and through the floppy was one path. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 14 06:34:19 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:34:19 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JRH00AIEXK5LI10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:57:55 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >>FYI: 3.5" disks were never meant to run at 125khz. The >>720k mode is 250khz and the 1.44mh is 500khz. The read >>amps just may not work well down that low. > >Do you think that it would be better if I were to get the Tarbell to >run at 4MHz (250kHz)? > >I'd have to make a new BIOS and modify the format program. I don't >have source for the format program. Does anyone off hand know where >source to the Tarbell CP/M utilites could be found? Or utilities for any FDC based on 1771 could be modified. >I should be able to format the disk as 36 sectors 80 tracks and >possibly configure it to use both sides. That would be formatting it >to capacity... > >I'm going to write a disk image tool that dumps the disk to my >computer. I could write one that also writes an image to a disk. > >What do you think would happen if I were to try to use the disk at >250kHz but only put half of the sectors? Will the 1771 handle the >extra time or give me errors? Take the time to read up on 1771 and FDC formats before you just plunge in. You will arrive at a better solution and spare yourself wasted time. Not all 1771s where shipped as full speed parts too. >This faster signal might be better for the disk drive? Potentially. Remember FM floppy recording was passe' by the early 80s with every one needed far greater space. It want even a consideration buy time PC 3.5" floppies hit the street. >It may seem strange I'm fighting with this so hard, especially since >I'm working on Altair disk drive system emulator using SD cards, but >nothing beats real live hardware. : ) I can understand wanting a floppy, a real floppy. However I'd expect a goal such as being able to read 8" SSSD (cp/m standard) or other widely used format for archival or transfer. Another controller that ended up in altairs very often was the NS* MDS. It's hard sector but there is a lots of media and programs for it's DOS and also CP/M. Getting floppies is a pain however. Allison >Grant From mdyori at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 11:55:52 2007 From: mdyori at verizon.net (Mr. Martin D. Yori) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:55:52 -0500 Subject: Floppy storage boxes Message-ID: <000501c826e7$995c8f20$0201a8c0@mdyori> can you tell me more about these floppy storage boxes thanks! Martin From rschroeder at satx.rr.com Wed Nov 14 12:08:25 2007 From: rschroeder at satx.rr.com (RJ SCHROEDER) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:08:25 -0600 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" Message-ID: <000601c826e9$5ab86ad0$6501a8c0@rj> I have a Bally Computer System,Astrovision Arcade Model ABA-1000-2. 7-controllers,1-video touch pad,11-games,2-Arcadian Cassettes,1-TV adaptor,2-key pad over lays,1-Bally Basic Computer Programming Cartridge With Built-In Audio Interface,and a complete set of manuals. From leeib at sequan.com Wed Nov 14 14:18:01 2007 From: leeib at sequan.com (Lee Inness-Brown) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:18:01 -0800 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks Message-ID: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> I was reading your thread about DDC head-per-track drives. I had a friend around 1980 that had one of these drives which he had obtained as surplus from the US Air Force. It used helium atmosphere around the disks to reduce friction. The disk was 12" in diameter and spun at 33,000 RPM (not a typo), and so it would produce considerable heat from friction if ordinary air were used, at least that's what I heard at the time. It was intended as a substitute for magnetic core (RAM) for mainframes. The disk latency was around 30 microseconds. Because the driving electronics were a lot slower then, the rated random access speed was (as I recall) 50 microseconds. Lee From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Nov 15 00:10:01 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:10:01 -0800 Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <0JRI0057YXPWHY30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <473A9533.3090903@msu.edu> <0JRI0057YXPWHY30@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <473BE2B9.6050208@msu.edu> Cool. So, two things spring immediately to mind: 1) Does anyone know if the LAG from a Mac Plus is the same as (or equivalent to) the LAG from a 512k? If so, I can take the one out of my Plus and put it in the 512k for testing purposes. If this succeeds, then we proceed to point 2: 2) Can anyone, given the logic equations that Grant's so kindly provided, program a GAL16V8 for me? (For which I will gladly compensate time & effort & parts) Thanks! Josh Grant Stockly wrote: > At 03:17 PM 11/14/2007, you wrote: >> > The LAG is labeled "HAL16R8CN 8440 / 342-0251-A" so it does look >> like a >> > custom ("HAL") chip such as what Tony was mentioning. Guess that >> would >> >> It is. The important part of the number is the '16R8' bit. That implies >> it's got 8 registered ouptuts and a total of 16 inputs to the AND array >> (8 serpate inputs and 8 feedback terms from the output pins). That, of >> course, accounts for 16 pins on the 20 pin package, the others are +5V, >> ground, a common clock input to all the flip-flops, and a common output >> enable signal to all the outputs). >> >> It's the same architecture as a PAL16R8, and could be replaced by a >> suitably-programemd GAL16V8. Not that that is any help at all without >> the >> PAL equations. >> >> I will try to find all my notes on the Mac+ (but not tonight!). I know I >> never figured out the PAL equations, but I might have something of use. > > There are equations for the PALs on my website: > http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6 > > > From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 01:34:35 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 02:34:35 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473B736D.8383.1742CFF0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711150027.30422.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B736D.8383.1742CFF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711150234.35477.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 01:15, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2007 at 0:27, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > The x80 CPUs didn't have any good way to dynamically relocate code and > > data and had a fairly small addressing space. > > > > I guess that depended a lot on how you coded things. The biggest single > > thing that jumps out at me being absolute addresses, and I guess that > > it's possible to avoid those to an extent. And if stuff was modular > > enough you could make some small but effective modules that wouldn't take > > up all that much room. Wasn't that what ZCPR was trying to do? At least > > that's the impression I'm left with after having browsed some doc files, > > and that wasn't recently... > > I'd call MP/M "static" relocation--once you loaded a program, you > couldn't move it. MP/M used the simple scheme of assembling a > program twice--one off by 100H locations from the original one. > Compare the two, build a bitmap of the differences and you've got a > primitive relocation map. But once the program is loaded, the map is > useless--you have no way of knowing what addresses have been > generated during execution. I seem to remember some stuff duing my CP/M days that actually had a bitmap of which locations needed to be fixed, though I'm darned if I can remember just now what that was. > To make the best use of available memory, you have to be able to move > active programs to make room for other ones. If you *really* want to > do things right, you can load and unload programs to disk. > > JRT Pascal did this pretty well--and it was p-code interpreted. Wasn't JRT the one that got some really bad reviews in Byte or one of the other magazines? It was some early Pascal compiler anyhow. I can't say I ever encountered it or ran across it or talked with anybody who had used it. > The other approaches were more hardware oriented--use bankswitched > memory to change context or multiple CPUs, one per user (e.g. > Molecular). Neither takes the best advantage of available resources. Molecular doesn't ring any bells offhand but I do recall a system (and almost got a hold of one once) that had a system CPU card, one that ran the HD, and one for each user, complete with serial ports for the user's terminal and printer. And I think there was a system printer port as well. I think I have a binder around here someplace that gets into that, but it's not handy and I can't recall where it is offhand. (Too many books in boxes, not nearly enough shelving to put them on.) > Pcode allows you to do something that compiling to native code > doesn't--the ability to design your own machine. For example, > instead of having your P-code instructions reference locations in > memory, you can substitute an ordinal into a local descriptor table, > where all of the good stuff about a variable is kept (e.g. string > length, data type, dimension, location, etc.). When you need to > move, you know where to find all of the stuff that needs adjustment. > > Your subroutines can be ordinals into table of descriptors that may, > for example, tell the interpreter that a subroutine isn't present in > memory yet. To the programmer, it all looks seamless; no silly > "CHAIN" statements--the interpreter does it all for you. > > And, as long as you don't pollute your P-code, it's portable to just > about any platform. This sounds pretty good... I remember one of the floppies I got with my Osborne originally was labeled "UCSD P-System" (or something pretty close to that). I vaguely recall poking around with it once, but it had nothing at all to do with CP/M, wasn't compatible with anything else at all, and at that point in time I couldn't see the use of it. I probably still have it somewhere, and some docs on it too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 01:37:59 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 02:37:59 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150643.lAF6hnkD031808@floodgap.com> References: <200711150643.lAF6hnkD031808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200711150237.59669.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 01:43, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > On the other hand, there was the 6551 ACIA emulation in software for > > > the user port, which was buggy to boot. People may make fun of the > > > Plus/4 but at least it had a real ACIA. > > > > They did? (Looking in handy box of manuals, but plus 4 isn't in > > there...) > > Yup. Memory escapes me, but I think Commodore even managed to screw that up > somehow with some lines missing or something (Jim Brain might know, I can't > find my Plus/4 notes a/t/m). Still, I used a Plus/4 as a terminal for > awhile until I got a SwiftLink. That Plus/4 even did the apartment budget > back then. Not a bad computer, and the graphics were nice, just strange and > incompatible. I have some number of those in storage, but don't recall what the problems were with them. I might even have one that works, though I'm not at all sure about that. They were nice compact little cases, for sure, much more nicely made than the c64 was. But when those started hitting the shop we were starting to slide out of the c= business, and I don't think I ever did see a c16 come in there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 01:40:49 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 02:40:49 -0500 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> References: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> Message-ID: <200711150240.50201.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 14 November 2007 15:18, Lee Inness-Brown wrote: > I was reading your thread about DDC head-per-track drives. > > I had a friend around 1980 that had one of these drives which he had > obtained as surplus from the US Air Force. > > It used helium atmosphere around the disks to reduce friction. The disk > was 12" in diameter and spun at 33,000 RPM (not a typo), and so it would > produce considerable heat from friction if ordinary air were used, at least > that's what I heard at the time. It was intended as a substitute for > magnetic core (RAM) for mainframes. The disk latency was around 30 > microseconds. Because the driving electronics were a lot slower then, the > rated random access speed was (as I recall) 50 microseconds. One thing I've been curious about with regard to drives like that -- how many heads/tracks does it have? How many _can_ such a thing have? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 01:43:46 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 02:43:46 -0500 Subject: can anybody use these tapes? Message-ID: <200711150243.46620.rtellason@verizon.net> In among a whole bunch of audio tapes are these three "Teac CT-500H High Density Magnetic Tape Cassette"s... Instead of the usual tab that you can break out to prevent recording there's a small red bit in one of the holes, which the bit of paper in there refers to as a "write enable plug". Two of the three are still sealed in their original plastic. I don't think even the third one is used at all. Feel free to contact me offlist if you have any use for these... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Nov 15 01:48:58 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:48:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <200711150054.22110.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> <200711150054.22110.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1195112938.473bf9ea6c939@www.jblaser.org> Quoting Patrick Finnegan : > If you want some reference information, I assembled information from > other pages, and information I discovered myself while setting up my > 11/750, and have it here: > > http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/ Yes, yes! That's a very informative page you have there. I'm surprised I overlooked it so far. Thanks for pitching it to me. > > > I've now got the following installed in the backplane: > > > > in CMI slot 1 (still looking for the optional L0001 FPU) > > L0002 (DPM) in CMI slot 2 > > L0003 (MIC) in CMI slot 3 > > L0004 (UBI) in CMI slot 4 > > L0008 (PCS) in CMI slot 5 > > L0006 (RDM) in CMI slot 6 (optional, I guess, but came with other > > boards) in CMI slot 7 (I pulled the SI9700 from this slot) > > in CMI slot 8 > > in CMI slot 9 > > L0016 (CMC2) in CMI slot 10 > > > > M8750 (1MB RAM) in 'extended' slots 11-18 (8MB total) > > This sounds reasonable. There are jumpers on the CMI Good to have your comments. I've never had to build up a system 'from scratch'...always had more or less functional systems come my way. > backplane, which > you will need to set appropriately, both to tell the system that you > have an RDM card (though I'd probably just pull it out, but you'll > still want to check that it's set properly), and for the CMI option > slots (7-9). If I recall, all the information necessary should be > printed on labels attached to the steel cover over the backplane, > behind the back door of the VAX. In any case, if it's missing, I have > a photograph of the label, which looks readable enough to me, on my > site, above. You know, my system included that printed label on it's door, too. Of course, that door was nearly the first item removed when I started cleaning the whole system up, and to tell the truth, I haven't touched it since. I just spaced the fact that I had it at all. It's just sitting in a corner waiting for a sort of 'final' reassembly in the future. Again, thanks for pointing this out. I can reference mine. (And, yes, your photo is entirely readable.) > > > M9202 (Unibus 'joiner') in slots 19 and 20 > > M7485 (DZ11) in Unibus slot 21 > > in Unibus slot 22 > > in Unibus slot 23 > > in Unibus slot 24 > > in Unibus slot 25 > > in Unibus slot 26 > > in Unibus slot 27 > > M9313 (Unibus Term) in Unibus slot 28 > > You will need to have G727 or G7273 grant continuity cards in all of the > empty slots. However, you should be able to do some basic tests Ah, I don't have any of those. Being a unibus noob, let me ask if I can just move the M9313 terminator up, right 'behind' the DZ11, and skip the empty slots? Or is there some 'special' wiring on the unibus backplane. Admittedly, I've only worked with simple qbus stuff to date, and a backplane with wirewraps all over it has me a little nervous, to say the least. :) > without it, as the UNIBUS is a secondary CPU on the VAX, the processor > will still function even with a messed-up UNIBUS (at least to some > extent). You probably won't get too far in booting anything, though, > with a broken UNIBUS grant chain. Well, we'll see how far we get, *if* I can find some diagnostic images. > > > I still don't have any mass storage interfaces (to support my RA81 > > and/or x2 Fujitsu SuperEagles...still looking for UDA50, Dilog > DU256, > > and/or Emulex UD33), but I was hoping that I have enough modules to > > start testing the CPU, anyway. > > A UDA50 probably will be easier to find, though a 3rd party interface > (as long as it's not SCSI) will probably be cheaper if you can find > one. :) > Yeah, I'm on the hunt right now...I just don't want to spend a fortune, so I'm bargain shopping! :) > > contained CPU and system diagnostics. I'm hoping someone has a set > > of these tapes imaged somewhere that I could download and give a > try. > > I might have some tape images...somewhere. I found them online > somewhere, quite a few years ago, but can't find them anymore. I'm not > sure what I have though, they may be more like VMS standalone backup > tapes, or something else. Well, if you turn up anything, please let me know. So far my search for online images has turned up nothing. I'm sure someone, somewhere has them posted, but so far I'm drawing a blank. I suppose I could just 'go for it' without doing any diagnostics, but until I get some kind of mass storage attached there's not much more that I can do with the system. Also, I'm just wanting to assure myself that this hodge-podge collection of boards from various sources will actually work as a set. If I have a bum board I'd like to know it before I start trying to do real installation of VMS or whatever. Many thanks for the pointers. I'll get back to learning about CMI and Unibus backplane configuration... - Jared From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 01:49:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:49:19 -0800 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> References: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> Message-ID: <473B897F.16473.17990251@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2007 at 12:18, Lee Inness-Brown wrote: > It used helium atmosphere around the disks to reduce friction. The disk was > 12" in diameter and spun at 33,000 RPM (not a typo), and so it would produce > considerable heat from friction if ordinary air were used, at least that's > what I heard at the time. It was intended as a substitute for magnetic core > (RAM) for mainframes. The disk latency was around 30 microseconds. Because > the driving electronics were a lot slower then, the rated random access > speed was (as I recall) 50 microseconds. Let's see--33,000 RPM is 550 rev/second or about one rev every 1.8 milliseconds. To get that down to 60 microseconds max (2*30) you'd have to pack 36 heads per track. That's a lot of heads on a 12" disk! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 02:02:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:02:03 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150234.35477.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org>, <473B736D.8383.1742CFF0@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711150234.35477.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473B8C7B.29463.17A4AD9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 2:34, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I seem to remember some stuff duing my CP/M days that actually had a bitmap of > which locations needed to be fixed, though I'm darned if I can remember just > now what that was. If you put together CP/M from the OEM kit, you used it to make your customized copy of MOVCPM. > Wasn't JRT the one that got some really bad reviews in Byte or one of the > other magazines? It was some early Pascal compiler anyhow. I can't say I > ever encountered it or ran across it or talked with anybody who had used it. I still have my 8" JRT disk. Yes, it was terrible and slow, but what do you expect from a program that swaps to floppy? They advertised that you could write programs of any size, not limited by the RAM of your computer. While it was probably true that you could write programs much larger than available RAM, the d*mned thing was buggy enough to be useless. Curiously, I was using it as part of a validation set of programs to check out V20/V30 8080 emulation and turned up a big in the V20/V30. I still have the NEC MicroNote describing the problem. AFAIK, the bug was never fixed in the V-series uPs--there just wasn't enough interest. As I recall, the problem was the JRT modularized its own subroutines and set SP = subroutine entry point before each call to keep the stack local to each subroutine. It broke the V20/V30 badly. It was an object less in the fallacy of the "no one would ever want to do that' approach. > I remember one of the floppies I got with my Osborne originally was > labeled "UCSD P-System" (or something pretty close to that). I vaguely > recall poking around with it once, but it had nothing at all to do with > CP/M, wasn't compatible with anything else at all, and at that point in > time I couldn't see the use of it. I probably still have it somewhere, and > some docs on it too. Yup, UCSD P-system was its own operating system as well as the language support. Not a bad implementation for the time, but a world unto itself. I think at one point IBM even flogged it for the PC. Cheers, Chuck From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Nov 15 02:06:51 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:06:51 +0100 Subject: fS/H: Power Mac 9500 mobo/FD Message-ID: <20071115080651.271610@gmx.net> Hello listmembers, some days ago I stumbled across the remains of a parted-out Power Macintosh 9500 that I have no use for. There are: -3,5" floppy drive (Mitsubishi MF355F-2592MA) -grey plastic mounting sled and 20-conductor ribbon cable for the above -mainboard (P/N: 820-0563-B), bare (no DIMMs, no CPU, heck not even PRAM battery (but with power LED)). Chances are I might go back and snatch case parts incase anybody wants me to; what I remember for sure is that there were no fans left and the back panel was missing too. I couldn't test anything so it's assumed dead and offered for pickup or S&H (inside Europe only). I'm in Germany btw, and I could bring it to the VCFe in Munich next April. Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 15 02:11:36 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 03:11:36 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <1195112938.473bf9ea6c939@www.jblaser.org> References: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> <200711150054.22110.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1195112938.473bf9ea6c939@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <200711150311.36338.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 15 November 2007 02:48, J Blaser wrote: > > > M9202 (Unibus 'joiner') in slots 19 and 20 > > > M7485 (DZ11) in Unibus slot 21 > > > in Unibus slot 22 > > > in Unibus slot 23 > > > in Unibus slot 24 > > > in Unibus slot 25 > > > in Unibus slot 26 > > > in Unibus slot 27 > > > M9313 (Unibus Term) in Unibus slot 28 > > > > You will need to have G727 or G7273 grant continuity cards in all > > of the > > > empty slots. However, you should be able to do some basic tests > > Ah, I don't have any of those. Being a unibus noob, let me ask if I > can just move the M9313 terminator up, right 'behind' the DZ11, > and skip the empty slots? Or is there some 'special' wiring on the > unibus backplane. Admittedly, I've only worked with simple qbus > stuff to date, and a backplane with wirewraps all over it has me a > little nervous, to say the least. :) No, the "middle" slots of the backplane are different than the first and last (UNIBUS IN/OUT) slots. What you can do, however, is pull the M9202, and put the terminator in its place (in the CPU backplane side, not the UNIBUS backplane side), and just ignore the UNIBUS backplane entirely. That's probably the best thing to do for now. You'll want to get grant cards eventually, they're fairly common and not too expensive. I've recently acquired a couple hundred (!) G727's. Send me a message off-list if you want me to send you a 10 pack. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 15 02:23:43 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:23:43 +0000 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <473B897F.16473.17990251@cclist.sydex.com> References: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> <473B897F.16473.17990251@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1195115023.12095.1.camel@elric.inet> On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 23:49 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Let's see--33,000 RPM is 550 rev/second or about one rev every 1.8 > milliseconds. To get that down to 60 microseconds max (2*30) you'd > have to pack 36 heads per track. That's a lot of heads on a 12" > disk! Even assuming only a 3" band of the disk was available (radius being 6", a bit around the edge and a bit for the spindle), that's still only 12 tracks per inch. No-one said the heads all had to be in a line, either. You could mount four head bars with three heads apiece. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 15 02:26:32 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:26:32 +0000 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRH00CQ8VGHGFF0@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRH00CQ8VGHGFF0@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1195115192.12095.5.camel@elric.inet> On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 06:57 -0500, Allison wrote: > I had that a work once it was dust in the drives scaring the disks > after one or two uses. > > Reaaon, PC suck air out of the box, where does it come in? Any ways it > can and through the floppy was one path. That is an excellent point - there is no fan in the Mirage (or the rather newer EPS, or the Emax II, or the ESI-4000 either although the latter uses HD disks). Funny thing is that the otherwise-identical SQ80 disk drives apparently failed a lot more than the ones in Mirages. Well, they're double-sided but in practice all this means is that it uses the head select line. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 15 02:30:01 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:30:01 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1195115401.12095.8.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 00:20 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 14 November 2007 23:47, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 14 Nov 2007 at 23:29, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have > > > the lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a > > > copying process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on > > > going. > > > > Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into > > some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). > > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of having > a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even possible? It's done all the time with samplers. A sampler and a computer can share a disk as long as only one is using it, and the sampler can flip to being a target so you can blat samples across from the computer very quickly. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 15 02:32:02 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:32:02 +0000 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... In-Reply-To: <200711150032.49524.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711150032.49524.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1195115522.12095.9.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 00:32 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Didn't that "Superbrain" computer use a couple of Z80 chips in there? IIRC, > one was the "main" CPU and the other one handled I/O tasks of some sort > (disk?). I had a guy come into my shop one time wanting a couple of those > fixed, but I could find *no* data on them at the time and therefore couldn't > do too much for him... It does. I believe one handles disk accesses, while the other does the rest. Once I get mine working, I'll tell you more. > Are there docs out there for this beast? I'm just wondering how they divided > things up between the two CPU chips, and how they interfaced things... A quick google turns up scans of the service manual and circuit diagrams. Gordon From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 15 02:32:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:32:19 +1300 Subject: Intellegent peripherals (was Re: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation)) In-Reply-To: <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071115083219.GA32121@usap.gov> On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 11:29:59PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 13 November 2007 18:17, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > An even better example is the C-64. The disk drives on that are > > > netoriously slow, but were computers in their own right, having a CPU as > > > part of the drive electronics. One trick (assuming you have at least two > > > disk drives) was to program the disk drives to copy a disk, > > > > The 64 was emblematic of the best and worst features of this. The > > intelligent serial peripherals could talk amongst each other, such as > > the disk drive becoming commanded to TALK and the printer to LISTEN, > > which is essentially a print spooler. > > This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have the > lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a copying > process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on going. The PET was even better for that... in the case of the C-64, you could load a small copier program into an unused buffer on each drive to do manage reading and writing each sector without the C-64 itself participating, but it meant that you couldn't then use the bus for something else, printing, say. Until the 2031, PET IEEE drives were dual-drive units, presumably to amortize the cost of the intellegent controller, the power supply, the case, over two spindles (a dual 5.25" ~170K-diskette drive was well over the cost of the computer it was attached to in 1979, in the range of $2200). The DOS for the 2040/3040/4040/8050/8250 drives had a "copy drive N to drive M" command (I'd quote chapter and verse, but I don't have access to the 'net right now). One of the CPUs on the drive (before the 1540, there were multiple 6502-family CPUs in the box) would read one drive, then write that buffer to the other drive without extra buffer copying and without putting the traffic on the bus. You could then, say, use your IEEE-488 acoustic coupler to logon to a BBS while disks were copying, or print to a printer, or whatever, since the IEEE bus was not involved in that disk-to-disk copy. Yes, the C-64 could do it, and yes, it was cheaper than the way the PET did it, but it wasn't the first nor was it the fastest. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Nov-2007 at 08:21 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -41.3 F (-40.7 C) Windchill -65.9 F (-54.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.9 kts Grid 119 Barometer 681.6 mb (10568 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Nov 15 02:42:58 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:42:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <200711150311.36338.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> <200711150054.22110.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1195112938.473bf9ea6c939@www.jblaser.org> <200711150311.36338.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1195116178.473c0692ed48f@www.jblaser.org> Quoting Patrick Finnegan : > > Ah, I don't have any of those. Being a unibus noob, let me ask if I > > can just move the M9313 terminator up, right 'behind' the DZ11, > > and skip the empty slots? Or is there some 'special' wiring on the > > unibus backplane. Admittedly, I've only worked with simple qbus > > stuff to date, and a backplane with wirewraps all over it has me a > > little nervous, to say the least. :) > > No, the "middle" slots of the backplane are different than the first and > last (UNIBUS IN/OUT) slots. > What you can do, however, is pull the M9202, and put the terminator in > its place (in the CPU backplane side, not the UNIBUS backplane side), > and just ignore the UNIBUS backplane entirely. That's probably the > best thing to do for now. An excellent suggestion! > > You'll want to get grant cards eventually, they're fairly common and not > too expensive. I've recently acquired a couple hundred (!) G727's. > Send me a message off-list if you want me to send you a 10 pack. :) Sounds like you hit the G727 jackpot!!! How many UNIBUS PDPs and VAXen do you support, for Pete's sake, that would require such a pile??? ;) - Jared From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 15 02:55:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:55:37 +1300 Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <200711150311.36338.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> <200711150054.22110.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1195112938.473bf9ea6c939@www.jblaser.org> <200711150311.36338.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20071115085537.GB32121@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 03:11:36AM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 15 November 2007 02:48, J Blaser wrote: > > > You will need to have G727 or G7273 grant continuity cards in all > > > of the empty slots.... > > > > Ah, I don't have any of those. Being a unibus noob, let me ask if I > > can just move the M9313 terminator up, right 'behind' the DZ11, > > and skip the empty slots? Or is there some 'special' wiring on the > > unibus backplane. Admittedly, I've only worked with simple qbus > > stuff to date, and a backplane with wirewraps all over it has me a > > little nervous, to say the least. :) > > No, the "middle" slots of the backplane are different than the first and > last (UNIBUS IN/OUT) slots. Pat, you beat me to it, but let me add that in some cases, where you have MUD (Modified Unibus Device) slots, it can be *very bad* to stick a terminator in a peripheral slot. I'm pulling out of the back of my memory that it's really, really bad to do that to an 11/725 or 11/730 - you can blow the power supply. There were, back in the day, configuration guides for various system setups. Unfortuately, all Unibuses are not created equal, especially those in CPU cabinets. There is a great deal of overlap in that a TU80 controller or a DZ-11 or a UDA50 will work in pretty much every instance I can think of, but exceptions do lurk around the edges. One egregious example I can think of is the COMBOARD-I. It works in a DD11-DK (like the Unibus backplane in your 11/750), but *not* in the Unibus slots of the CPU backplane of an 11/730. The fault is with the original layout of the COMBOARD-I, not the 11/730, but it was caused by an incomplete understanding of where the Unibus signals were supposed to live in an SPC (Small Peripheral Controller) slot. I have a "modified COMBOARD-I" with lots of blue wires relocating the signals to the proper edge fingers. Fortunately, the lesson was learned before the COMBOARD-II, which works in all types of Unibus slots. The important thing to remember is what Pat already said - the in/out slots are different from the ones in the middle. Unlike OMNIBUS or VME or ISA busses, the Unibus is not a simple pin-1-to-pin-1, pin-2-to-pin-2 kind of pattern. > What you can do, however, is pull the M9202, and put the terminator in > its place (in the CPU backplane side, not the UNIBUS backplane side), > and just ignore the UNIBUS backplane entirely. That's probably the > best thing to do for now. That should work quite satisfactorily until you have a Unibus controller you'd like to boot from. > You'll want to get grant cards eventually, they're fairly common and not > too expensive. I've recently acquired a couple hundred (!) G727's. > Send me a message off-list if you want me to send you a 10 pack. :) G727s were very common in the day. What was less common were the dual- height GC7273 (or Software Results' GC747) grant cards that also jumpered the NPR wire. If you are down to the booting stage and you get strange behavior, be sure to check your NPR wires. Disk and tape controllers tend to need the NPR wire off the backplane to be able to make the "Non Processor Request" (to initiate what is called in other architectures a DMA cycle), some comms controllers like the DMF32 also need the NPR wire off, while other comms controllers like the DZ-11 don't need it, so it should be jumpered on the backplane, if the card doesn't happen to jumper it at the card edge (newer peripherals might, older peripherals won't). The "easy" way is to remove all the NPR wires from all nine slots in a DD11-DK, then use dual-height grant cards. The harder, but less expensive way is, to check the needs of your cards and adjust the backplane accordingly. If you don't make frequent changes, it's not as bad as it sounds. If you are changing cards every month (as we did, for development, etc), nine dual-height grant cards is cheaper than an hour or two of head-scratching. We had an 11/750 that couldn't talk to its tape drive out of the box. Turns out we had forgotten to remove the NPR wire for that slot. I think it was 4 hours before we remembered to check (since all of our other machines had *no* NPR wires, we got out of the habit of looking). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Nov-2007 at 08:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -41.1 F (-40.6 C) Windchill -68.1 F (-55.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.6 kts Grid 124 Barometer 681.5 mb (10572 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Nov 15 03:06:38 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 03:06:38 -0600 Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? In-Reply-To: <473B5EDE.5080206@srv.net> References: <473B5EDE.5080206@srv.net> Message-ID: <473C0C1E.3050304@oldskool.org> Kevin Handy wrote: > Richard wrote: >> It took me a while until I figured out it was speech'ing the >> Gettysburg Address. >> > Having only seen someone play with a DecTalk a long time ago, > how well does it's speech quality compare with the 'festival' > program (available on many Linux systems)? I'd say Festival is only marginally better than DecTalk. Festival is free, and it shows :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 15 03:21:34 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:21:34 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question Message-ID: <01C82740.49CFBB40@mandr71> ---------Original Messages: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:48:21 -0500 From: Allison Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:13:48 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >I think you might have misunderstood, Allison; sounds like you thought I was >talking about replacing an FDC with one other than what the BIOS is configured >for; obviously that will require mods to the BIOS. Ok, then same fdc but sufficiently differnt drive requires new (modified) bios. Changes that affect a bios: Motor on/motor runs continiously. Step rate, head load delay, motor on delay Different on disk format (likely with 8 to 5") >What I was responding to was a previous post that suggested replacing an 8" >drive with a 5 1/4" HD drive might require mods to the BIOS, and I just wanted >to mention that this is not the case with a Cromemco 16/64FDC, to which a >TM848 and a JU475 appear identical as long as the jumpers on the 5 1/4 drive >are set correctly and it supplies /READY, and that this may also apply to some >other controllers. Also, if the controller has both 8" and 5 1/4 connectors and >they are effectively in parallel as they are on the Cromemco, you may not >even need a 50<>34 pin adapter cable. if the drive supplies ready _MAYBE_. If the Drive has the same step rate. -------------Reply: Well, I should know better than to argue (again ;-) with you of all people, but... Since we're talking about 'modern' 5 1/4" HD drives, Motor on and Ready are jumper selectable on all the drives I've run across, step rates etc. are faster than the 8" equivalent (except perhaps the PerScis), and with the same speed and data rate the disk formats are identical, no? In any case I'm only specifically talking about my Cromemco system and it seems to work fine for me. It gives me 1.1 MB on a 5 1/4HD diskette instead of 360KB and lets me deal with both 5 1/4 and 8" images conveniently in a single 5 1/4" FH bay box, without the complication of the 24V supply, 50 pin cable, unreliable old 8" drives etc. To initially read & convert my 8" disks I just temporarily plugged an external drive w/PS into the unused 50 pin connector. I haven't tried it yet, but it should also make recreating an 8" image on a PC easier, and it puts some 5 1/4HD drives & disks to a good use, which otherwise would end up on the shelf or in the trash since I don't use them on PCs. After installing the drive I happened to run across some old posts in the archives dealing with this very topic (on a Cromemco); apparently it was easy and worked fine for some and not for others. I just wanted to add my name to the former group in case it had relevance to someone else with a Cromemco FDC or _perhaps_ even with a different make of controller if it's similar, and especially mention to one of the original posters that it might not be necessary to kludge up a 50<>34 pin adapter cable (which he was reluctant to make) if the two interfaces on his FDC are handled the same way as on the Cromemco FDC. mike From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Nov 15 05:18:04 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:18:04 +0100 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 Message-ID: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> However, I am saddened by a classic computer that will never be turned on >> again. Computers are not fine art, they are machines that should be run >> (and for that matter, I feel that fine art should be viewed, not stored >> in a vault). > > As much as Tony is a hardware guy, I'm a software guy on the other end > of the spectrum. And yet I wholeheartedly agree with this, to the point > where pretty much all of my hobbyist programming is done on old iron. > It's not enough that I use my old machines; I have to make them jump > through new hoops :-) I agree, in principle, but there are exceptions. I *prefer* a machine to work, but some machines are of such beauty that I wouldn't part with them for the world even if they didn't work. My SGI Crimson Jurassic Classic is one such example. Even if it were just an empty shell, I'd still stick it in my living room as a side table. That monster is just too beautiful not to have on display, and my particular machine has enough of a history attached to it that it makes a historic artefact and a prime conversation piece. ,xtG tsooJ From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Nov 15 05:21:18 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:21:18 +0100 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: > I had that a work once it was dust in the drives scaring the disks > after one or two uses. > > Reaaon, PC suck air out of the box, where does it come in? Any ways it > can and through the floppy was one path. True enough. Actually, the first NeXT Cubes had their MO drives fail regularly due to the fan sucking dust in through the drive slot(s). When bringing the machine in for repair, the fan would be reversed to alleviate the problem. Later Cubes were manufactured with the fan blowing in as standard. ,xtG tsooJ From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Nov 15 06:49:08 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 07:49:08 -0500 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... In-Reply-To: <200711150032.49524.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200711151154.lAFBsX6U010248@hosting.monisys.ca> > Didn't that "Superbrain" computer use a couple of Z80 chips in there? IIRC, > one was the "main" CPU and the other one handled I/O tasks of some sort > (disk?). I had a guy come into my shop one time wanting a couple of those > fixed, but I could find *no* data on them at the time and therefore couldn't > do too much for him... Yes, two Z80's. One is the main CPU, the other is the DISK/IO processor. > Are there docs out there for this beast? I'm just wondering how they divided > things up between the two CPU chips, and how they interfaced things... Operators manual, technical manual and schematics are on my site. Regerds, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Nov 15 05:56:06 2007 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:56:06 +1100 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 15/11/2007, at 4:20 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility > of having > a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even > possible? VMS has allowed SCSI clusters for quite a while that allow multiple host adapters - typically you set the first host adapter to address 7 and the next to 6 (and I guess 5 if you have three hosts - I've only done it with two). This has been re-invented for Integrity (aka Itanium) servers but I think it's limited to two hosts. Works and works well with supported SCSI adapters. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Nov 15 08:16:48 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:16:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: C64 w/2+ disk drives (was: Re: MIT provides MULTICS source) In-Reply-To: <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > > On Tuesday 13 November 2007 18:17, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > An even better example is the C-64. The disk drives on that are > > > netoriously slow, but were computers in their own right, having a CPU as > > > part of the drive electronics. One trick (assuming you have at least two > > > disk drives) was to program the disk drives to copy a disk, > > > > The 64 was emblematic of the best and worst features of this. The > > intelligent serial peripherals could talk amongst each other, such as > > the disk drive becoming commanded to TALK and the printer to LISTEN, > > which is essentially a print spooler. > > This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have the > lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a copying > process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on going. > I believe there were a few disk-copying programs like this that would also prompt you to change disks by flashing the LEDs in some way. Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 08:24:33 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:24:33 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473C56A1.5030007@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have >>> the lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a >>> copying process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on >>> going. >> Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into >> some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). > > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of having > a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even possible? Yes. I've had machines talking to each other over a SCSI bus. If memory serves, one had to be configured as the master and the others as targets. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 08:26:38 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:26:38 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: References: <473BE656.5070602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <473C571E.4080406@gmail.com> Golan Klinger wrote: > Did anyone notice that the same fellow just sold a second C65 for > $5000 and to the same guy no less. I wonder if he's going for the > treble... Could it be shilling involved? Peace... Sridhar From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 08:30:57 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:30:57 +0100 Subject: C64 w/2+ disk drives (was: Re: MIT provides MULTICS source) In-Reply-To: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> References: <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0711150630q54fa2697n9060afbd3f5439aa@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/15, Bryan Pope : > I believe there were a few disk-copying programs like this that would > also prompt you to change disks by flashing the LEDs in some way. > ..Or to inform you that your disk was truly fsck'ed. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 08:37:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:37:05 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473C5991.7090406@gmail.com> Huw Davies wrote: >> Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of >> having >> a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even possible? > > VMS has allowed SCSI clusters for quite a while that allow multiple host > adapters - typically you set the first host adapter to address 7 and the > next to 6 (and I guess 5 if you have three hosts - I've only done it > with two). > > This has been re-invented for Integrity (aka Itanium) servers but I > think it's limited to two hosts. > > Works and works well with supported SCSI adapters. Works even better with DSSI, since disks can be quorum members. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 08:38:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:38:07 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711142322.26202.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711131656.58163.rtellason@verizon.net> <4739B486.25787.10712EA5@cclist.sydex.com> <200711142322.26202.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2007, at 11:22 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > There was a lot of clever thought and a lot of elegance in early > hardware and > software that seems sadly lacking in more current stuff. My recent > comment > about WordStar's so apparently seamless switch from all-in-memory > to using a > bunch of disk space I commented on recently being one example. I have > patched the living hell out of the copy of ws.com I used, doing > all sorts of > stuff to it -- because I could! :-) Sure it took some doing, but > these > days a lot of knowledge of that sort seems to be just about lost > completely. :-( What, you can't patch ws.com anymore? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 15 08:49:45 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 06:49:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64 w/2+ disk drives (was: Re: MIT provides MULTICS source) In-Reply-To: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Nov 15, 7 09:16:48 am" Message-ID: <200711151449.lAFEnjTA015056@floodgap.com> > I believe there were a few disk-copying programs like this that would > also prompt you to change disks by flashing the LEDs in some way. Didn't the MSD AutoCopy ROMs do that too? I have an AutoCopy MSD around here somewhere but all I can find is my "virgin" MSD right now. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 08:59:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:59:12 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> On Nov 15, 2007, at 12:20 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which >>> would have >>> the lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd >>> kicked off a >>> copying process, have unplugged the computer and it would just >>> keep on >>> going. >> >> Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into >> some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). > > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility > of having > a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even > possible? Absolutely...SCSI is a (mostly) peer-to-peer bus. You can easily set up multiple "masters" ("initiators" in SCSI parlance) on a SCSI bus if the hardware implements the spec in a reasonable way and the OS' drivers can do something useful with the capability. Communication between host adapters is also possible; I'm sure I've even heard of "IP over SCSI" having been implemented. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Nov 15 09:10:27 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:10:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: C64 w/2+ disk drives In-Reply-To: <200711151449.lAFEnjTA015056@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20071115151027.E8C4C5683B@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Cameron Kaiser > > > I believe there were a few disk-copying programs like this that would > > also prompt you to change disks by flashing the LEDs in some way. > > Didn't the MSD AutoCopy ROMs do that too? I have an AutoCopy MSD around here > somewhere but all I can find is my "virgin" MSD right now. > Hmm.. I wonder if my MSD Dual disk drive has that as it has a little box attached to it that has a switch and a push-button. Maybe that is why only one drive in it works when I tested it last. Cheers, Bryan From trag at io.com Thu Nov 15 09:28:29 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:28:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <200711150722.lAF7MGrg039930@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711150722.lAF7MGrg039930@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <59735.209.163.133.242.1195140509.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:34:45 -0900 > From: Grant Stockly > At 03:17 PM 11/14/2007, you wrote: >> > The LAG is labeled "HAL16R8CN 8440 / 342-0251-A" so it does look like >> a >> > custom ("HAL") chip such as what Tony was mentioning. Guess that >> would >>I will try to find all my notes on the Mac+ (but not tonight!). I know I >>never figured out the PAL equations, but I might have something of use. > > There are equations for the PALs on my website: > http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6 Wow, Grant, that's a really cool website. Where have you been hiding? That is a very cool project. I keep my eyes open for other folks who actually like to tinker with Mac hardware in a circuit board sense and they are few and far between. Even the over-clocking enthusiasts try to avoid soldering at every turn, for the most part. Will you have to rewrite some of the firmware (ROM contents) in order to change the timing of your project and gain the extra speed? Also, have you looked at the Brainstorm accelerator at all--the one which simply added a 16 MHz CPU on top of the original? It had a replacement BUG I think and a small amount of firmware. Jeff Walther From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 15 09:32:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:32:14 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150130.35911.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <473BDAE6.4000209@mdrconsult.com> <200711150130.35911.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473C667E.8070202@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Thursday 15 November 2007 00:36, Doc Shipley wrote: >>>> Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into >>>> some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). >>> Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of >>> having a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even >>> possible? >> Possible, and has been done fairly often in storage arrays. >> >> Google "multi-initiator scsi" and rock on. :) > > Hehe. Did that and the first two hits say "not recommended" and "not > supported" in the text that google is showing me there... I've got a feeling there's not even the code there for it Linux - it just doesn't know how to handle commands sent to the HBA at all. Few years ago when I looked though; maybe it's different now... It's certainly technically possible - I used to look after a pair of SGI O200 machines which have a bunch of disk storage shared between them on the same SCSI bus. > Another thought, though, is that might make for some interesting > possibilities with that Bigboard II, which has that SASI port that seems (as > far as I can tell from just looking at signal names) to be fairly compatible > with SCSI, maybe hooking _that_ into a SCSI bus might have some serious > uses. Hmm. I think SASI's sufficiently different that you'd be hacking your own SCSI drivers to do it - from memory there were some extra phases in the SCSI protocol which weren't in SASI. That's assuming whatever HBA you use doesn't try and do the work for you and then barf because the device isn't SCSI. Plus I don't think SASI had any concept of parity, so you'd probably have to hack a bit of hardware there to generate the parity bit (assuming you couldn't disable it via software). Note that Linux chokes on devices that don't respond to the identify command - which is every SASI device and some early SCSI ones too. I'm not sure how deeply set that is into the 'core' SCSI layer, but I don't think it's down to driver behaviour (i.e. you can't get around it by hacking your own HBA driver). No idea what other OSes are like... I'm sure it *could* be done though, but it's a reasonable amount of work. It'd be simpler to build your own SASI interface and drive it from a suitable I/O board (a PC parallel port doesn't quite have enough lines unfortunately) from user-land. After all, the sort of data transfer rates for SASI stuff isn't exactly blinding, so some sort of polled-I/O bit-twiddling should be good enough. > Sure beats trying to transfer any nontrivial amount of data over a > serial link, and has the potential for going one heck of a lot faster! Been there done that with a few ST-412 drives (via Adaptec SCSI bridge boards). Think it was about 8 hours per 20MB or thereabouts. > So many things to look at, and never enough time... Yep... I got a PC SASI interface all designed and then halfway wired up ages ago, then just haven't had the time to do anything more with it for 6 months or so :-( cheers Jules From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 09:40:34 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:40:34 -0500 Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors Message-ID: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> As part of the process of getting a second C128 system set up and running, I recently ordered another Commodore 1084 monitor from an eBay seller. The one I have is nice and bright and lets me switch quickly between the composite (40-column) and RGBI (80-column) outputs of the 128, so I was happy to stumble across another one for a reasonable price. It arrived last night, and it's a great little monitor, in even better shape than the one I already had. To my surprise, though, it's also completely different. The case is different, the form factor and positioning of the controls are different -- and, most relevantly, even the connectors are different. My older one (made in 1989) has a DB-9 input for RGBI input. The new arrival (made in 1988, if I recall correctly) has an 8-pin DIN input for RGBI input. Thankfully, I already had a DB-9 to DIN-8 cable in the Big Box of CBM Scraps, so I didn't have to order any cable-making parts from Mouser, but it does bring up a question: how many potentially problematic variations on the same model number did Commodore make? I know that they did a lot of this sort of thing, given the ever-changing appearance of the C2N and 1541, but is there a quick and easy question I can ask a seller to find out exactly what ports to expect on the back of a 1084 (or similar monitor)? "DB-9" and "8-pin DIN" are already way too difficult to explain to somebody just trying to clean out their attack, but if there's a guide out there with a breakdown by manufacturing date or serial number for some of this Commodore equipment, that would be lovely... From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 09:41:32 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:41:32 -0500 Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: <473C571E.4080406@gmail.com> References: <473BE656.5070602@oldskool.org> <473C571E.4080406@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Could it be shilling involved? It seems unlikely given that both were sold using eBay's "Buy It Now" function. There was no bidding process. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 15 09:49:28 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:49:28 -0600 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Communication between host adapters is also possible; I'm sure I've > even heard of "IP over SCSI" having been implemented. There was an IP over SCSI project for Linux awhile back. Cheap[er] FC pretty much killed it, I think. Doc From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 15 10:16:13 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:16:13 -0800 Subject: Data I/O 212 programmer available In-Reply-To: <4739B6F8.8070405@stny.rr.com> References: <47369427.8090109@msu.edu> <47375D8B.4080103@sbcglobal.net> <4739B6F8.8070405@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <473C70CD.9040008@sbcglobal.net> I have a second manual, with a few loose pages. Email me your address and I'll send it to you for the cost of postage. Bob James Lynch wrote: > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> I have a Data I/O model 212 programmer with some memory cards, >> manuals and cables. >> If anyone wants it, it free, just pay shipping. Total weight is near >> 25 pounds with the manuals. >> >> Bob >> >> Santa Cruz, CA 95060 >> > Hi I also have a Data I/O model 212 programmer unfortunately without > the manual. Would you be willing to scan and make the manual available? > > Thanks, > Jim > From rickb at bensene.com Thu Nov 15 10:17:56 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:17:56 -0800 Subject: 8-bit Multiuser (was Multics) In-Reply-To: <473BD297.5020706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711131224.47618.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711142336.48166.rtellason@verizon.net> <473BD297.5020706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Well the idea of muilt-processing on a 8 bit cpu (6809) > sounds nice. You know a floppy, hard drive, serial I/O (low > speed) all going at once could help a user use software effectively. > Still waiting ... too bad GIMIX is not around anymore. > Ben alias woodelf > PS. I don't want a COCO 3 instead, I want a REAL computer. > (Well I have PDP 8 for my real *classic* computer :). > Gimix built 6809 (and I believe, later, 68000)-based computers that ran OS-9. Their machines were very well-designed and built, and had a reputation for being true "data center quality" rather than hobbyist machines, though they did market to the "high end" of the hobbyist market. OS-9 was a full multi-user operating system that ran on the 6809 (a 68K-based version which was dramatically enhanced over the 8-bit OS-9 was also marketed, which was quite powerful). The 6809-based (8-bit) version of OS-9 could be run on the various models of the Radio Shack Color Computer, but with floppy disc's I/O bandwidth limitations, it was frustratingly slow on the Coco I. The later Coco II and Coco III made improvements in the I/O architecture, and added some "memory management" capabilities to address some of these problems, and with a hard disk connected, could serve up a small office multi-user environment, although they were hardly what I'd call "data center" grade equipment. OS-9 was made by a company called Microware, and was really quite amazing for its time. Sometime in the 1980's (can't remember exactly when, but I think it was after 1985) I built a homebrew 6809-based computer that used OS-9, and could nicely service five users including the console, all running simultaneously (terminals at 9600 baud), along with background jobs that did things like printer spooling, a clone of UUCP, and even a batch processing system. The system had a DMA/Interrupt-based hard disk controller that I designed that interfaced to a Micropolis 8" hard disk drive (can't remember the model number, but I think it held something like 20MB, and used a pre-SCSI parallel interface, that I got from the Tektronix company store for something like $25), and an 8-port serial I/O card that had some local intelligence (another 6809) that handled buffered input. OS-9 had a very extensible and well-documented driver architecture that made it possible to easily write device drivers for all of this custom hardware. It utilized bank-switched memory (It had 256K of memory in four banks with a common area (I think it was the upper 1K of the 64KB address space) that wasn't bank switched for I/O (the 6809 uses a memory-mapped I/O methodology) and boot ROM. It was a fun project (that was when I had time...don't know where it went, but it's definitely not here now), and I learned a lot by tinkering with it. I still have most of the pieces of that system, except the hard disk eventually died, which pretty much ended the playing with it -- those old Micropolis 8" drives just aren't around anymore, and there's no time to try to design a USB or SCSI interface for it. Those were the days... Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From brain at jbrain.com Thu Nov 15 10:20:16 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:20:16 -0600 Subject: C64 w/2+ disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <473C71C0.8050305@jbrain.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > >> On Tuesday 13 November 2007 18:17, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>> An even better example is the C-64. The disk drives on that are >>>> netoriously slow, but were computers in their own right, having a CPU as >>>> part of the drive electronics. One trick (assuming you have at least two >>>> disk drives) was to program the disk drives to copy a disk, >>>> >>> The 64 was emblematic of the best and worst features of this. The >>> intelligent serial peripherals could talk amongst each other, such as >>> the disk drive becoming commanded to TALK and the printer to LISTEN, >>> which is essentially a print spooler. >>> >> This reminds me of one particular disk-copying program, which would have the >> lights on both drives on solid. You could, once you'd kicked off a copying >> process, have unplugged the computer and it would just keep on going. >> >> > > I believe there were a few disk-copying programs like this that would > also prompt you to change disks by flashing the LEDs in some way. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > Fast Hack 'Em did both of these. There was a 1541 Auto-Copy feature. It would work with drives that were all set to Device 8 (the default). You would load the program from the FHM boot screen (Option M or so) It would ask you to turn off one drive, and hit enter. That would load the code into what would end up as device 9, and soft change the dev number You would turn back on the other drive, and it would load the code into that drive Then, it would ask you to unplug the 64 from the drives. The drives then checked the write protect signal of the source drive to understand when a disk was inserted. The LEDs would blink during formatting and copying ina regular way. When you were changing disks and when it was preparing to start, it would toggle the LEDs in a pattern that provided feedback. A little known fact with FHM is that the first step of assigning soft dev number 9 and loading code to the target drive would work with multiple drives. It was possible to chain 4 or 5 drives off a 64 and turn off 1 drive (the source), allowing 3 or 4 drives to become "targets". Then, you would end up making multiple copies of a source disk. knowing what I now know about the Commodore IEC protocol, I am amazed that works. I can only assume that FHM specifically planned for that to occur. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Thu Nov 15 10:29:42 2007 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles Fox) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:29:42 -0500 Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.co m> References: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071115162946.07A1D2599@fep1.cogeco.net> At 10:40 AM 11/15/2007, you wrote: >As part of the process of getting a second C128 system set up and >running, I recently ordered another Commodore 1084 monitor from an >eBay seller. The one I have is nice and bright and lets me switch >quickly between the composite (40-column) and RGBI (80-column) outputs >of the 128, so I was happy to stumble across another one for a >reasonable price. > >It arrived last night, and it's a great little monitor, in even better >shape than the one I already had. To my surprise, though, it's also >completely different. The case is different, the form factor and >positioning of the controls are different -- and, most relevantly, >even the connectors are different. My older one (made in 1989) has a >DB-9 input for RGBI input. The new arrival (made in 1988, if I recall >correctly) has an 8-pin DIN input for RGBI input. > >Thankfully, I already had a DB-9 to DIN-8 cable in the Big Box of CBM >Scraps, so I didn't have to order any cable-making parts from Mouser, >but it does bring up a question: how many potentially problematic >variations on the same model number did Commodore make? I know that >they did a lot of this sort of thing, given the ever-changing >appearance of the C2N and 1541, but is there a quick and easy question >I can ask a seller to find out exactly what ports to expect on the >back of a 1084 (or similar monitor)? "DB-9" and "8-pin DIN" are >already way too difficult to explain to somebody just trying to clean >out their attack, but if there's a guide out there with a breakdown by >manufacturing date or serial number for some of this Commodore >equipment, that would be lovely... I also have two 1084S Monitors, 1989 with Din, and 1991 with the DB connector. Both came with Amigas. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario 519-254-4991 N8Y 3J8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Nov 15 10:33:06 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:33:06 +0000 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: <000601c826e9$5ab86ad0$6501a8c0@rj> Message-ID: On 14/11/07 18:08, "RJ SCHROEDER" wrote: > I have a Bally Computer System,Astrovision Arcade Model ABA-1000-2. > 7-controllers,1-video touch pad,11-games,2-Arcadian Cassettes,1-TV > adaptor,2-key pad over lays,1-Bally Basic Computer Programming Cartridge With > Built-In Audio Interface,and a complete set of manuals. Good for you! ;-) -Austin From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 15 10:29:05 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:29:05 -0500 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... Message-ID: <01C8277A.E6FA0EE0@mandr71> -----------Original Message: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:32:02 +0000 From: Gordon JC Pearce Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 00:32 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Didn't that "Superbrain" computer use a couple of Z80 chips in there? IIRC, > one was the "main" CPU and the other one handled I/O tasks of some sort > (disk?). It does. I believe one handles disk accesses, while the other does the rest. Once I get mine working, I'll tell you more. Gordon ----------Reply: Cromemco also had Z80s on their I/O processor boards, and when the later 680x0 CPU boards dropped the Z80 you could still run your Z80 programs on the I/O card. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 15 10:30:16 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:30:16 -0500 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... Message-ID: <01C8277A.E7EE32E0@mandr71> ----------Original Message: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:32:19 +1300 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Intellegent peripherals (was Re: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation)) The DOS for the 2040/3040/4040/8050/8250 drives had a "copy drive N to drive M" command (I'd quote chapter and verse, but I don't have access to the 'net right now). You could then, say, use your IEEE-488 acoustic coupler to logon to a BBS while disks were copying, or print to a printer, or whatever, since the IEEE bus was not involved in that disk-to-disk copy. -ethan ---------Reply: And if there was an error during the copy or backup the drive merely lit an error LED (which some people supplemented with a piezo beeper because it was easy to miss) and you had to ask the drive what the error was (and clear the error condition). That way whatever you were doing in the meantime would not be interrupted with an error message. You could also defragment (collect) the disk while doing something else, although for some reason the format (header) command tied up the computer until it finished. m From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Nov 15 10:54:23 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:54:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150136.20732.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B6AA9.22200.17209253@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150136.20732.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200711151655.LAA03311@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But I am accumulating a pile of SCSI stuff too. Including a whole > mess of 2G drives -- anybody have a need for those? Need, no, but I do find 2G plenty big enough to be useful; if you're planning on tossing 'em, let's see if we can't work out a rescue mission for at least some of them. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 15 10:56:55 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:56:55 +0000 Subject: Colossus code-breaking again... Message-ID: <473C7A57.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> Nice article up on the BBC news website about the Cipher Challenge that's going on today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7094881.stm ... I've not been involved in that side of things, but it's been interesting watching Tony and his crew running around the last few weeks trying to get everything put together (there was a huge amount to do on the reception/intercept side of things in particular) cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 11:17:20 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:17:20 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473B8C7B.29463.17A4AD9E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711150234.35477.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B8C7B.29463.17A4AD9E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711151217.20649.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 03:02, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2007 at 2:34, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I seem to remember some stuff duing my CP/M days that actually had a > > bitmap of which locations needed to be fixed, though I'm darned if I can > > remember just now what that was. > > If you put together CP/M from the OEM kit, you used it to make your > customized copy of MOVCPM. Right. But there was also some application software that did this as well. > > Wasn't JRT the one that got some really bad reviews in Byte or one of the > > other magazines? It was some early Pascal compiler anyhow. I can't say > > I ever encountered it or ran across it or talked with anybody who had > > used it. > > I still have my 8" JRT disk. Yes, it was terrible and slow, but what do you > expect from a program that swaps to floppy? They advertised that you could > write programs of any size, not limited by the RAM of your computer. While > it was probably true that you could write programs much larger than > available RAM, the d*mned thing was buggy enough to be useless. It's the bugs that were reported back when, if I'm remembering right. (Snip) > > I remember one of the floppies I got with my Osborne originally was > > labeled "UCSD P-System" (or something pretty close to that). I vaguely > > recall poking around with it once, but it had nothing at all to do with > > CP/M, wasn't compatible with anything else at all, and at that point in > > time I couldn't see the use of it. I probably still have it somewhere, > > and some docs on it too. > > Yup, UCSD P-system was its own operating system as well as the > language support. Not a bad implementation for the time, but a world > unto itself. I think at one point IBM even flogged it for the PC. Apparently. A side-trip into wikipedia turned up some interesting reading on that, and other somewhat related subjects, before I was too tired to continue last night. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 15 11:47:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:47:46 +0000 Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> References: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <473C8642.7030501@yahoo.co.uk> Mark Meiss wrote: > It arrived last night, and it's a great little monitor, in even better > shape than the one I already had. To my surprise, though, it's also > completely different. The case is different, the form factor and > positioning of the controls are different -- and, most relevantly, > even the connectors are different. My older one (made in 1989) has a > DB-9 input for RGBI input. The new arrival (made in 1988, if I recall > correctly) has an 8-pin DIN input for RGBI input. In the UK, I think the Amiga monitors were usually rebranded Philips displays - the same as could be had for numerous other systems of the time. Acorn also used the same Philips units - branded for their own purposes - and they certainly existed in both 8-pin DIN and DE-9 configuration. Furthermore, I've seen them both with and without speakers, with and without separate audio inputs at the back, with and without direct RGB via SCART sockets (not relevant outside Europe :-) and with and without the ability to accept CVBS video. It may well be that Philips worked with someone else on the underlying displays for markets outside Europe - I didn't think Philips had much of a presence in such as the US? Or it might be that different markets got different displays - i.e. the UK idea of '1084' is totally different to a US one with the same model number (now that would be confusing :-) > appearance of the C2N and 1541, but is there a quick and easy question > I can ask a seller to find out exactly what ports to expect on the > back of a 1084 (or similar monitor)? Assuming my above text is relevant, just get them to describe what ports it has. I've never seen one where the ports aren't wired up if they're present - the only case that would be hard to tell is whether speakers are physically present when there's no separate audio in (i.e. audio input could still be via the DIN plug or SCART) cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 11:49:45 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:49:45 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711142322.26202.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200711151249.46738.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 09:38, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 14, 2007, at 11:22 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > There was a lot of clever thought and a lot of elegance in early hardware > > and software that seems sadly lacking in more current stuff. My recent > > comment about WordStar's so apparently seamless switch from all-in-memory > > to using a bunch of disk space I commented on recently being one example. > > I have patched the living hell out of the copy of ws.com I used, doing > > all sorts of stuff to it -- because I could! :-) Sure it took some > > doing, but these days a lot of knowledge of that sort seems to be just > > about lost completely. :-( > > What, you can't patch ws.com anymore? ;) I don't think people know how, or that software is being written to deal with doing things like this to it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 11:52:56 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:52:56 -0500 Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> References: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711151252.56200.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 10:40, Mark Meiss wrote: > As part of the process of getting a second C128 system set up and > running, I recently ordered another Commodore 1084 monitor from an > eBay seller. The one I have is nice and bright and lets me switch > quickly between the composite (40-column) and RGBI (80-column) outputs > of the 128, so I was happy to stumble across another one for a > reasonable price. > > It arrived last night, and it's a great little monitor, in even better > shape than the one I already had. To my surprise, though, it's also > completely different. The case is different, the form factor and > positioning of the controls are different -- and, most relevantly, > even the connectors are different. My older one (made in 1989) has a > DB-9 input for RGBI input. The new arrival (made in 1988, if I recall > correctly) has an 8-pin DIN input for RGBI input. I haven't encountered too many 1084 monitors, but they did the same thing with the 1802, if I'm remembering right... *Very* different models, one was made by Magnavox (Philips?) and one by GoldStar. And of course they tended to have different failure modes, and so forth. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 11:56:54 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:56:54 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200711151256.54667.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 10:49, Doc Shipley wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Communication between host adapters is also possible; I'm sure I've > > even heard of "IP over SCSI" having been implemented. > > There was an IP over SCSI project for Linux awhile back. Cheap[er] > FC pretty much killed it, I think. There appears to be a sourceforge page on it, but the latest date on there is in 2001... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 15 08:19:13 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:19:13 -0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001001c82792$808a39b0$1004010a@uatempname> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility > of having a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that > even possible? I'm sure that there was talk of having VMS Clustering running over a SCSI interconnect. I think the main problem with using it for VAXen was that most of them (all of them?) would reset the SCSI bus whenever they felt like it. For Alphas, though, it was certainly possible to do this. I don't recall whether the code was ever released though ... Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 15/11/2007 09:34 From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 12:19:33 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:19:33 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473C667E.8070202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711150130.35911.rtellason@verizon.net> <473C667E.8070202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200711151319.33226.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 10:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Thursday 15 November 2007 00:36, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>>> Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written into > >>>> some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the go"). > >>> > >>> Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of > >>> having a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even > >>> possible? > >> > >> Possible, and has been done fairly often in storage arrays. > >> > >> Google "multi-initiator scsi" and rock on. :) > > > > Hehe. Did that and the first two hits say "not recommended" and "not > > supported" in the text that google is showing me there... > > I've got a feeling there's not even the code there for it Linux - it just > doesn't know how to handle commands sent to the HBA at all. Few years ago > when I looked though; maybe it's different now... I saw some mention in there someplace of support in the kernel, but they weren't very explicit about support for what, exactly. > It's certainly technically possible - I used to look after a pair of SGI > O200 machines which have a bunch of disk storage shared between them on the > same SCSI bus. > > > Another thought, though, is that might make for some interesting > > possibilities with that Bigboard II, which has that SASI port that seems > > (as far as I can tell from just looking at signal names) to be fairly > > compatible with SCSI, maybe hooking _that_ into a SCSI bus might have > > some serious uses. > > Hmm. I think SASI's sufficiently different that you'd be hacking your own > SCSI drivers to do it - from memory there were some extra phases in the > SCSI protocol which weren't in SASI. Yeah, but you're talking protocol, of which there currently isn't any at the BBII end. > That's assuming whatever HBA you use doesn't try and do the work for you and > then barf because the device isn't SCSI. Thankfully I seem to have a number of different choices available to me here. > Plus I don't think SASI had any concept of parity, so you'd probably have to > hack a bit of hardware there to generate the parity bit (assuming you > couldn't disable it via software). I'm not sure what the deal is with that offhand. > Note that Linux chokes on devices that don't respond to the identify > command - which is every SASI device and some early SCSI ones too. I'm not > sure how deeply set that is into the 'core' SCSI layer, but I don't think > it's down to driver behaviour (i.e. you can't get around it by hacking your > own HBA driver). No idea what other OSes are like... I'm sure it's in the source tree somewhere, but I haven't dug into that at all lately and have no idea where it might be located, if it's even in there. > I'm sure it *could* be done though, but it's a reasonable amount of work. > It'd be simpler to build your own SASI interface and drive it from a > suitable I/O board (a PC parallel port doesn't quite have enough lines > unfortunately) from user-land. After all, the sort of data transfer rates > for SASI stuff isn't exactly blinding, so some sort of polled-I/O > bit-twiddling should be good enough. I'm not sure I'm up to building hardware to sit on the peecee side of things, though. > > Sure beats trying to transfer any nontrivial amount of data over a > > serial link, and has the potential for going one heck of a lot faster! > > Been there done that with a few ST-412 drives (via Adaptec SCSI bridge > boards). Think it was about 8 hours per 20MB or thereabouts. Yikes. > > So many things to look at, and never enough time... > > Yep... I got a PC SASI interface all designed and then halfway wired up > ages ago, then just haven't had the time to do anything more with it for 6 > months or so :-( And I'm due to start a new job shortly, which also involves a couple of hours a day drive time, which is only going to make it worse. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 12:22:08 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:22:08 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711151655.LAA03311@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711150136.20732.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711151655.LAA03311@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200711151322.08310.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 11:54, der Mouse wrote: > > But I am accumulating a pile of SCSI stuff too. Including a whole > > mess of 2G drives -- anybody have a need for those? > > Need, no, but I do find 2G plenty big enough to be useful; if you're > planning on tossing 'em, let's see if we can't work out a rescue > mission for at least some of them. I don't, as a general rule, toss stuff like that as long as it still works. And sometimes not even when it doesn't, if I can get some useful bits out of it. I mentioned it in here because it came up in conversation with somebody in the list a while back and they said something about the 1-2G range of sizes being particularly useful for some things, though I can't recall at the moment just what those things were offhand. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 15 12:31:58 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:31:58 +0000 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... In-Reply-To: <200711151154.lAFBsX6U010248@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200711151154.lAFBsX6U010248@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1195151518.6621.2.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 07:49 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Didn't that "Superbrain" computer use a couple of Z80 chips in there? IIRC, > > one was the "main" CPU and the other one handled I/O tasks of some sort > > (disk?). I had a guy come into my shop one time wanting a couple of those > > fixed, but I could find *no* data on them at the time and therefore couldn't > > do too much for him... > > Yes, two Z80's. One is the main CPU, the other is the DISK/IO processor. > > > > Are there docs out there for this beast? I'm just wondering how they divided > > things up between the two CPU chips, and how they interfaced things... > > Operators manual, technical manual and schematics are on my site. Ah, yes, on looking at it again, it *is* your site. Hm. I bet you know a few things about the disk format too, don't you? I'm considering writing a memory tester to help me track down the faulty RAM in one of the Superbrains I have. However, I don't (as yet) have a way to write it out to disk. It would be too easy if DDT worked. What I'm thinking is writing it out to disk on the PC, but then I only have one working system disk so I'd need to format a blank disk too. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 12:37:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:37:21 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711151319.33226.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com>, <473C667E.8070202@yahoo.co.uk>, <200711151319.33226.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473C2161.9160.19EA4F97@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 13:19, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm not sure I'm up to building hardware to sit on the peecee side of things, > though. I have an old Ampex SASI card for the PC that you're welcome to. It has a BIOS EPROM, but you'll have to figure out how it works--I haven't much more than a pinout on the 50-pin header on it--but it's all MSI TTL 7400 stuff; no PALS or ROMS. But you can also get a data acquisition board with several 8255s on it in either ISA or PCI and just use that (I know that some hate the 8255, but it shouldn't be a problem in this application). If you have ISA slots, building a SASI adapter is easy with a prototype card that does all of the signal decoding for you. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 12:41:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:41:55 -0800 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <1195115023.12095.1.camel@elric.inet> References: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront>, <473B897F.16473.17990251@cclist.sydex.com>, <1195115023.12095.1.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <473C2273.29469.19EE7CFB@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 8:23, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 23:49 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Let's see--33,000 RPM is 550 rev/second or about one rev every 1.8 > > milliseconds. To get that down to 60 microseconds max (2*30) you'd > > have to pack 36 heads per track. That's a lot of heads on a 12" > > disk! > > Even assuming only a 3" band of the disk was available (radius being 6", > a bit around the edge and a bit for the spindle), that's still only 12 > tracks per inch. No-one said the heads all had to be in a line, either. > You could mount four head bars with three heads apiece. I suppose I'm not being clear here. If latency is 30 microseconds, then maximum access time is 60 microseconds. The disk completes a rev in 1.8 milliseconds. To meet the latency requirement, that means that anything written must be read no later than 60 microseconds after being written. The only way I know to do this is by employing multiple heads per *track*, spaced around the track so that any head can be used to pick up data just written. If your drive has, say, 50 tracks, that implies 36*50 = 1800 heads. Maybe my math is messed up, or the OP dropped a zero somewhere, but that's what I get. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 13:22:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:22:44 -0800 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware Message-ID: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> Here's an interesting little segment I just heard on the Beeb about the Colossus reconstruction at Bletchley Park: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7094881.stm Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 15 14:00:28 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:00:28 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473C667E.8070202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711150130.35911.rtellason@verizon.net> <473C667E.8070202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200711151500.28173.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 15 November 2007 10:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Thursday 15 November 2007 00:36, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>>> Both USB and SCSI have the device-to-device capability written > >>>> into some specs, but it's rarely implemented. ("USB on the > >>>> go"). > >>> > >>> Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the > >>> possibility of having a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter > >>> on it. Is that even possible? > >> > >> Possible, and has been done fairly often in storage arrays. > >> > >> Google "multi-initiator scsi" and rock on. :) > > > > Hehe. Did that and the first two hits say "not recommended" and > > "not supported" in the text that google is showing me there... > > I've got a feeling there's not even the code there for it Linux - it > just doesn't know how to handle commands sent to the HBA at all. Few > years ago when I looked though; maybe it's different now... There's a generic framework for implementing SCSI targets on SCSI/FC cards in Linux: http://scst.sf.net It requires changes to host adapter drivers in most cases, but they have some target-enabled drivers in the project for a couple of cards. Now, it's meant to let you export "LUNS" over SCSI or FC, so you could implement a software raid controller on a Linux box, but you could use it to do whatever you wanted, with enough extra programming. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 15 14:07:47 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:07:47 +0000 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's an interesting little segment I just heard on the Beeb about > the Colossus reconstruction at Bletchley Park: Hmm, I posted that a few hours ago... did it not come through? :-( From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 14:10:33 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:10:33 +0100 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <310f50ab0711151210r24ebc866i3a07dab57a6e57d1@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/15, Jules Richardson : > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Here's an interesting little segment I just heard on the Beeb about > > the Colossus reconstruction at Bletchley Park: > > Hmm, I posted that a few hours ago... did it not come through? :-( > Nope; his was the first and only [visible] instance onto the maillist. From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 14:12:56 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:12:56 +0100 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0711151210r24ebc866i3a07dab57a6e57d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> <310f50ab0711151210r24ebc866i3a07dab57a6e57d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0711151212o2709d8adw343b03fd0c55670@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/15, from at fu3.org : > 2007/11/15, Jules Richardson : > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Here's an interesting little segment I just heard on the Beeb about > > > the Colossus reconstruction at Bletchley Park: > > > > Hmm, I posted that a few hours ago... did it not come through? :-( > > > Disregard my premature statement; yours is here too. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 15 14:26:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:26:15 -0700 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0711151212o2709d8adw343b03fd0c55670@mail.gmail.com> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> <310f50ab0711151210r24ebc866i3a07dab57a6e57d1@mail.gmail.com> <310f50ab0711151212o2709d8adw343b03fd0c55670@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <473CAB67.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca> from at fu3.org wrote: > Disregard my premature statement; yours is here too. Who do you think will crash first? The real hardware or the software version? Ben alias woodelf From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 14:26:32 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:26:32 +0100 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> References: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> Message-ID: <310f50ab0711151226q3517f32cv407d4ce7c762b76d@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/14, Lee Inness-Brown : > It used helium atmosphere around the disks to reduce friction. The disk was > 12" in diameter and spun at 33,000 RPM (not a typo), Hm, any idea what made it spin? - Diesel engine? Heh.. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 14:32:08 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:32:08 -0500 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0711151226q3517f32cv407d4ce7c762b76d@mail.gmail.com> References: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> <310f50ab0711151226q3517f32cv407d4ce7c762b76d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <473CACC8.4020500@gmail.com> from at fu3.org wrote: > 2007/11/14, Lee Inness-Brown : >> It used helium atmosphere around the disks to reduce friction. The disk was >> 12" in diameter and spun at 33,000 RPM (not a typo), > > Hm, any idea what made it spin? - Diesel engine? Heh.. You'd have to have a killer transmission to spin a diesel up to that speed. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 15 14:43:49 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:43:49 +0000 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473CAB67.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> <310f50ab0711151210r24ebc866i3a07dab57a6e57d1@mail.gmail.com> <310f50ab0711151212o2709d8adw343b03fd0c55670@mail.gmail.com> <473CAB67.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <473CAF85.2080606@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > from at fu3.org wrote: > >> Disregard my premature statement; yours is here too. > Who do you think will crash first? The real hardware or the software > version? ISTR the Colossus guys saying that one of the main problems was the lack of transmit power on the German side (due to rules and regulations) - it's a fraction of what it would have been in wartime. Plus of course the receiving aerial is tiny compared to the originals too! Glad my post turned up and I wasn't going mad, anyway. Just another little glitch in the Matrix I guess :-) J. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 15 14:46:52 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:46:52 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/11/2007 15:49, Doc Shipley wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > There was an IP over SCSI project for Linux awhile back. Cheap[er] FC > pretty much killed it, I think. This can get quite amusing, because not only is there a standard for IP over SCSI, there's one for SCSI over IP. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 15 14:43:32 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:43:32 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <473CAF74.6010202@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/11/2007 14:59, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 15, 2007, at 12:20 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility of >> having >> a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even possible? > > Absolutely...SCSI is a (mostly) peer-to-peer bus. You can easily set > up multiple "masters" ("initiators" in SCSI parlance) on a SCSI bus if > the hardware implements the spec in a reasonable way and the OS' drivers > can do something useful with the capability. > > Communication between host adapters is also possible; I'm sure I've > even heard of "IP over SCSI" having been implemented. I can't remember if it was Cumana or SJ Research, but one of those companies had a system where a disk was shared on a single SCSI bus between multiple BBC Micros (or maybe Archimedes) and the bus was also used as a sort of network between the computers. As I recall it, the principle limitation in practice wasn't the obvious one of 8 devices on a narrow SCSI bus, but how close together the machines had to be because of the limited length you could make the bus. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 15 14:53:46 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:53:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: <473C8642.7030501@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Nov 15, 7 05:47:46 pm" Message-ID: <200711152053.lAFKrlxB014786@floodgap.com> > It may well be that Philips worked with someone else on the underlying > displays for markets outside Europe - I didn't think Philips had much of a > presence in such as the US? The Magnavox brand was how most of the Philips products got here then. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Moonraker" ---------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 15 14:52:50 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:50 +0000 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... In-Reply-To: <1195151518.6621.2.camel@elric.inet> References: <200711151154.lAFBsX6U010248@hosting.monisys.ca> <1195151518.6621.2.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <473CB1A2.9060905@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/11/2007 18:31, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I'm considering writing a memory tester to help me track down the faulty > RAM in one of the Superbrains I have. However, I don't (as yet) have a > way to write it out to disk. It would be too easy if DDT worked. What > I'm thinking is writing it out to disk on the PC, but then I only have > one working system disk so I'd need to format a blank disk too. What we used to do for difficult systems, was to have a carrier board with an EPROM programmed with self-contained test routines, selected by a BCD rotary switch, and with a few address jumpers if necessary, to plug into a boot ROM socket. Works even for an almost-dead machine, if you code it right. The simplest test routine can be just "JMP here" to test the bus, but we had video and memory tests too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 15:06:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:06:56 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <473CB4F0.2030904@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: >> There was an IP over SCSI project for Linux awhile back. Cheap[er] >> FC pretty much killed it, I think. > > This can get quite amusing, because not only is there a standard for IP > over SCSI, there's one for SCSI over IP. SCSI over IP over SCSI, anyone? Peace... Sridhar From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 15:15:24 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:15:24 +0100 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <473CACC8.4020500@gmail.com> References: <009901c826fb$7b7c7560$800101df@wavefront> <310f50ab0711151226q3517f32cv407d4ce7c762b76d@mail.gmail.com> <473CACC8.4020500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0711151315w4f44942bt8072c347380c48f2@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/15, Sridhar Ayengar : > from at fu3.org wrote: > > 2007/11/14, Lee Inness-Brown : > >> It used helium atmosphere around the disks to reduce friction. The disk was > >> 12" in diameter and spun at 33,000 RPM (not a typo), > > > > Hm, any idea what made it spin? - Diesel engine? Heh.. > > You'd have to have a killer transmission to spin a diesel up to that > speed. 8-) > =] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 15 15:19:51 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:19:51 -0700 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473CB4F0.2030904@gmail.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> <473CB4F0.2030904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <473CB7F7.2000309@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > SCSI over IP over SCSI, anyone? I think getting a carrier pidgen to carry you data would be faster than waiting for the software development.Just stick it on a USB stick and find a bird going in the right direction. :) > Peace... Sridhar > > > . > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 15 15:23:29 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:23:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473CB7F7.2000309@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> <473CB4F0.2030904@gmail.com> <473CB7F7.2000309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, woodelf wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > SCSI over IP over SCSI, anyone? > I think getting a carrier pidgen to carry you data would be faster > than waiting for the software development.Just stick it on a USB > stick and find a bird going in the right direction. :) Rafting photographers have been known to do that. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 15:29:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:29:43 -0500 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473CB7F7.2000309@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> <473CB4F0.2030904@gmail.com> <473CB7F7.2000309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <473CBA47.7090202@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: >> SCSI over IP over SCSI, anyone? > I think getting a carrier pidgen to carry you data would be faster > than waiting for the software development.Just stick it on a USB > stick and find a bird going in the right direction. :) iSCSI over CPIP! What an idea! Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 15 15:30:02 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:30:02 -0600 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <473CBA5A.3080905@mdrconsult.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/11/2007 15:49, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: > >> There was an IP over SCSI project for Linux awhile back. Cheap[er] >> FC pretty much killed it, I think. > > This can get quite amusing, because not only is there a standard for IP > over SCSI, there's one for SCSI over IP. Both of which could be described as "solutions looking for a problem".... I get to work with a lot of iSCSI storage. I've grown to loathe it, mostly because it's usually either not suited to the need, or just plain misconfigured. Or both. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 15:44:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:44:39 -0800 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473CAF85.2080606@yahoo.co.uk> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com>, <473CAB67.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca>, <473CAF85.2080606@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 20:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > Glad my post turned up and I wasn't going mad, anyway. Just another little > glitch in the Matrix I guess :-) My apologies--the Beeb story said that it was 4 hours old when I posted it--but perhaps that was the World Service posting time. Certainly there's been a lot of publicity in the UK and German press about this, but nary a mention over here in the US. Regardless, it's a good story and I look forward to the results. One item that had me wondering was the communications difficulty--are German radio amateurs no longer entitled to a full gallon of transmit power? Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 15 15:56:37 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:56:37 +0000 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1195163797.6621.6.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 20:07 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Here's an interesting little segment I just heard on the Beeb about > > the Colossus reconstruction at Bletchley Park: > > Hmm, I posted that a few hours ago... did it not come through? :-( Yours hit my mailserver at 16:56 Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 15 16:02:07 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:02:07 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473CBA5A.3080905@mdrconsult.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> <473B5EDE.16853.16F282D7@cclist.sydex.com> <200711150020.40420.rtellason@verizon.net> <7DCAC488-BBED-4DE1-96A7-581437825FAE@neurotica.com> <473C6A88.9060306@mdrconsult.com> <473CB03C.6020807@dunnington.plus.com> <473CBA5A.3080905@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1195164127.6621.11.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 15:30 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 15/11/2007 15:49, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Dave McGuire wrote: > > > >> There was an IP over SCSI project for Linux awhile back. Cheap[er] > >> FC pretty much killed it, I think. > > > > This can get quite amusing, because not only is there a standard for IP > > over SCSI, there's one for SCSI over IP. > > Both of which could be described as "solutions looking for a problem".... > > I get to work with a lot of iSCSI storage. I've grown to loathe it, > mostly because it's usually either not suited to the need, or just plain > misconfigured. Or both. Take a look at AoE - ATA over Ethernet. The spec for it is eight pages long, and is basically describing an ATA packet wrapped in an Ethernet frame. Hm. Can you get at raw Ethernet frames with a DEQNA or DELQA card? Looks like RT-11 disk drivers are nice and simple... Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 16:26:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:26:23 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <1195164127.6621.11.camel@elric.inet> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com>, <473CBA5A.3080905@mdrconsult.com>, <1195164127.6621.11.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <473C570F.19955.1ABBFFD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 22:02, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Take a look at AoE - ATA over Ethernet. The spec for it is eight pages > long, and is basically describing an ATA packet wrapped in an Ethernet > frame. How about ATAoAL? ATA over Aldis Lamp? Should be doable... Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 15 16:26:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:26:14 +0000 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com>, <473CAB67.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca>, <473CAF85.2080606@yahoo.co.uk> <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473CC786.9090209@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2007 at 20:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Glad my post turned up and I wasn't going mad, anyway. Just another little >> glitch in the Matrix I guess :-) > > My apologies--the Beeb story said that it was 4 hours old when I > posted it--but perhaps that was the World Service posting time. No worries - my outgoing SMTP server just seems to have had a few brain farts of late, so I was just getting worried it had eaten the message. (Ob. classiccmp - there was a time when nothing was thought of unreliable email; funny how people expect it to be instant and 100% reliable these days!) > Certainly there's been a lot of publicity in the UK and German press > about this, but nary a mention over here in the US. It's a shame that it all happened a bit last-minute; it would have been nice to have everything laid out six months ago so that radio amateurs could have got more involved and really made an 'event' out of it. What with everyone's time this year being devoted to forming the National museum itself though there's not been a lot of free time for the more 'fun' stuff :-( > Regardless, it's a good story and I look forward to the results. One > item that had me wondering was the communications difficulty--are > German radio amateurs no longer entitled to a full gallon of transmit > power? Someone did tell me, but I forget the exact numbers. 'not much' is the answer; it was some tiny fraction of the original transmit power though. I'll drop a message on the museum's mailing list and see if anyone knows... Apparently there were quite a few raised eyebrows on the German side when permission was sought to send an encrypted message overseas! cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 14:55:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:55:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <473BA2A8.7090308@mindspring.com> from "Don North" at Nov 14, 7 05:36:40 pm Message-ID: > > M7485 (DZ11) in Unibus slot 21 > > Are you sure this is a DZ11? A DZ11 RS232 is an M7819. An M7845 is half the > board set for a UDA50. It also has a 40p ribbon connector (like a DZ11) but > that is just used for board-board communication in the set. I haev no idesas what the connectors on a UDA50 are, but I am sure the header on a DZ11 is a 50 pin thing. _Many_ years ago I wired my own 'breakout cable' for one, to get 3 or 4 of the ports usable before I got the right Cabkit. IIRC, on the DZ11 the connector is parallel to one of the short edges of the PCB, If you put a DZ11 in a BA11-F, the cable comes out naturally upwards. I thought all the connectors on the UDA50 were near the module handles, the cables came out of the handle side of the PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 14:50:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:50:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRH00AIEXK5LI10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Nov 14, 7 07:34:19 am Message-ID: > >This faster signal might be better for the disk drive? > > Potentially. Remember FM floppy recording was passe' by the early > 80s with every one needed far greater space. It want even a > consideration buy time PC 3.5" floppies hit the street. As I understand it, FM at 125bps has (only) pulse spacings that can occur in MFM at 250kbps. The latter has some other spacing too, of course, but the point is that unless you're trying to be awkward, it's impossible to make a drive that will correctly handle any MFM data at 250kbps that will not also correctly handle FM data at 125kbps. (About the only way you could do it is if the drive tries to decode the data back to user bytes and then re-encodes them onto the disk in a totally different way. I know of know floppy drive that ever tried something like that!). There should be no problem at all in using a 3.5" DD floppy drive with the FM data stream that uou'd have sent to an SA400. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 15:04:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:04:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <200711142323.47643.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Nov 14, 7 11:23:47 pm Message-ID: > > Then they switched to selling a sandwich board that added a 179x for > > double density, while still retaining the 1771, for the oddball DAMs th= > at > > it could provide (needed for TRS80) > > What was oddball about DRAM (Is that what you meant?) for those machines? Not DRAM, DAM. DAM = Data Address Marker, a pattern written to the disk to indicate the start of a sector. It is a pattern that couldn't occur anywhere else in the track, it's written, IIRC, with some clock pulses missing. Most controllers can write/read 2 ifference DAMs -- normal DAM and 'deleted data DAM' (the names I believe relate to their original usage on the IBM 3740). The 1771 controller could handle 4 differnt DAMs, and the TRS-80 Model 1 TRS-DOS (and IIRC LDOS) used one of the 'extra' ones on the driectory track (so as to indentify said track very clearly). The problem is that while the double density controllers can read such disks, then can't correctly write them. Which means a 1793 (or whatever) double-density controller can't write Model 1 TRS-DOS disks. TRS-DOS would man bitterly (I can't rememebr whuite how) if it had the 'wrong' DAM on the directory cylinder. So Model 1s that had a double-0esnisty upgrade kept the 1771 chips as well so as to be able to use the origianl disks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 15:11:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:11:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <200711142329.59701.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Nov 14, 7 11:29:59 pm Message-ID: > > On the other hand, there was the 6551 ACIA emulation in software for > > the user port, which was buggy to boot. People may make fun of the Plus= > /4 > > but at least it had a real ACIA. > > They did? (Looking in handy box of manuals, but plus 4 isn't in there..= > .) Yes, accroding to my Plus4 service manual, it's location U3 on the main PCB. It's a real 6551, not even part of some other I/O chip. The serial port pins are buffered to TTL levels and brought out on he user port connector as you might expect. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 15:21:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:21:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) In-Reply-To: <473BE2B9.6050208@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Nov 14, 7 10:10:01 pm Message-ID: > So, two things spring immediately to mind: > > 1) Does anyone know if the LAG from a Mac Plus is the same as (or > equivalent to) the LAG from a 512k? If so, I can take the one out of my > Plus and put it in the 512k for testing purposes. If this succeeds, > then we proceed to point 2: Look at the Apple part number on the chip (i.e. anything apart from a date code and the HAL16R8 bit). If that part number is the same, then I'll wager quite a lot that it's the same prgoramming. In my experience Apple PCBs of this vintage are not nice to work on, though. The holes are small, the traces lift if you're not cable. it is not easy to desolder and remove parts. It is possible, but take care. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 15:52:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:52:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 65 = $5,000 In-Reply-To: from "Joost van de Griek" at Nov 15, 7 12:18:04 pm Message-ID: > I agree, in principle, but there are exceptions. I *prefer* a machine > to work, but some machines are of such beauty that I wouldn't part with > them for the world even if they didn't work. My SGI Crimson Jurassic > Classic is one such example. Even if it were just an empty shell, I'd > still stick it in my living room as a side table. That monster is just > too beautiful not to have on display, and my particular machine has > enough of a history attached to it that it makes a historic artefact and > a prime conversation piece. Of course. It is obviouslyy prefereable to preserve part of a machine (even just an empty case) than to preserve nothing. And if you don't have the skills or interest to restore a machine, then it's almost certainly wise not to make matters worse. My original comments related to machines that were complete enough to be run (or nearly complete enough to run, so that finding the missign parts would npt be that hard), and which could be easily got going with little, if any, TLC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 15:58:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:58:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> from "Mark Meiss" at Nov 15, 7 10:40:34 am Message-ID: > Thankfully, I already had a DB-9 to DIN-8 cable in the Big Box of CBM > Scraps, so I didn't have to order any cable-making parts from Mouser, > but it does bring up a question: how many potentially problematic > variations on the same model number did Commodore make? I know that _Did_ Commoodore make it? 8 pin DIN for an RGB input suggests 'Philips' to me. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 16:33:27 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:33:27 -0500 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473CAB67.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <473CAF85.2080606@yahoo.co.uk> <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Regardless, it's a good story and I look forward to the results. One > item that had me wondering was the communications difficulty--are > German radio amateurs no longer entitled to a full gallon of transmit > power? While the two stars of the show, Colossus and SZ42, are getting the limelight, I am most interested in the modem on the German end. Will they be using original equipment? What was used during the war? Was it an "Fug O 3" by any chance? I can find no hard data on whatever it is on the web. -- Will From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 15 16:45:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:45:00 +1300 Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <473BA2A8.7090308@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20071115224500.GA11029@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 08:55:57PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > M7485 (DZ11) in Unibus slot 21 > I haev no idesas what the connectors on a UDA50 are, but I am sure the > header on a DZ11 is a 50 pin thing. Yep. > _Many_ years ago I wired my own > 'breakout cable' for one, to get 3 or 4 of the ports usable before I got > the right Cabkit. We used to use lots of Nevada Western RJ11 serial adapters. We ran a standard 50-pin-to-CHAMP cable from each serial board, then a hand-wired double-telco-50-pin swabber to our rack-mounted Nevada Western panels which broke 25 pairs into eight RJ-11s. Figuring out one is tedious; making a dozen isn't so bad once you have the pattern. > IIRC, on the DZ11 the connector is parallel to one of the short edges of > the PCB... It is. I think it was designed to be easy to route in equipment of the 11/34 era. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Nov-2007 at 22:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -41.6 F (-40.9 C) Windchill -67.8 F (-55.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.9 kts Grid 124 Barometer 680.8 mb (10598 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 17:02:12 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:02:12 -0500 Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: References: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711151502m13db2d26m22b196f8ceffeaed@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 15, 2007 4:58 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Thankfully, I already had a DB-9 to DIN-8 cable in the Big Box of CBM > > Scraps, so I didn't have to order any cable-making parts from Mouser, > > but it does bring up a question: how many potentially problematic > > variations on the same model number did Commodore make? I know that > > _Did_ Commoodore make it? 8 pin DIN for an RGB input suggests 'Philips' > to me. Well, it's certainly got the chickenhead logo on it, at least. I'll take a closer look at the label on the rear tonight and look for more identifying characteristics. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 17:01:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:01:57 -0800 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com>, <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <473C5F65.21924.1ADC8E13@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 17:33, William Donzelli wrote: > While the two stars of the show, Colossus and SZ42, are getting the > limelight, I am most interested in the modem on the German end. Will > they be using original equipment? What was used during the war? Was > it an "Fug O 3" by any chance? This timetable seems to indicate that it's BP's SZ42 that will be used by the German side: http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/cevent.htm This blog appears to confirm this: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/11/15/colossus_is_codebrea king_at_bletchley_park_again.html Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 15 17:20:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:20:01 +0000 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473C5F65.21924.1ADC8E13@cclist.sydex.com> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com>, <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com>, <473C5F65.21924.1ADC8E13@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473CD421.1000107@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2007 at 17:33, William Donzelli wrote: > >> While the two stars of the show, Colossus and SZ42, are getting the >> limelight, I am most interested in the modem on the German end. Will >> they be using original equipment? What was used during the war? Was >> it an "Fug O 3" by any chance? > > This timetable seems to indicate that it's BP's SZ42 that will be > used by the German side: Yes it is - I got some nice photos of it the other day when it was on the bench :) I believe the army actually came in and did the shipment... AFAIK there's no transmission equipment as part of the SZ42 itself though, so something would still need to be hooked between that and a giant aerial in order to do the transmission; I think it was this bit that Will was interested in. cheers J. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 17:19:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:19:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What is an Epson BM5? Message-ID: Can anyone tell me anything about the Epson BM5 floppy drive unit? Perhaps a little description will help. Physcially it's about the size of an Epson TF20 and has one vertically-mounted half-height floppy drive on the front, along with a power LED. On the back are the usual mains connector and switch and a DB25 socket. The unit splits into 3 main sections, PUS, controller and drive The PSU consists of a mains transformer and a PCB cotnaining an STK7561 hybrid chip. It claims to give out 5V at 2A and 12V at 3A. I guess there's nothing to add about that. The controller claims to be a 'Rabbit Board'. The main chips are a Z80A, 24K of SRAM, 8K of EPROM, an 8237 DMA chip and a 7261, which seems to be a _hard_ drive controller. And of course a lot of TTL glue. The DB25 socket is fixed to this board, it's clearly a TTL level parallel intefave, possibly SCSI-like. The drive links to the cotnroller by a pair of ribbon cables, 1 20 way and 1 34 way. I'm seriously suspecting an ST506/ST412 interface -- yes, on a floppy drive. The drive is Hitachi FDD541. The mechancial side looks conventional, a stepper motor postiioned (it desont _seem_ to be servo-trackedm, although I guess it could micro-step). Spindle motor, etc seem normal to, there is a head-load solenoid. The disks are clearly of the normal 5.25" form factor, but I suspect of a much higher coercivity. There's a logic board fixed to the drive, full of ICs I've never heard off, including a 637B01X0P (Microcontroller?), and an ASIC in a PGA opackage). The contorller interface really does look like ST506/412. Anyone got any ideas? What was it used with, what is the host interface? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 17:29:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:29:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <20071115224500.GA11029@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 16, 7 11:45:00 am Message-ID: > > _Many_ years ago I wired my own > > 'breakout cable' for one, to get 3 or 4 of the ports usable before I got > > the right Cabkit. > > We used to use lots of Nevada Western RJ11 serial adapters. We ran a > standard 50-pin-to-CHAMP cable from each serial board, then a hand-wired > double-telco-50-pin swabber to our rack-mounted Nevada Western panels > which broke 25 pairs into eight RJ-11s. Figuring out one is tedious; > making a dozen isn't so bad once you have the pattern. When I did this, I didn't have the DZ11 printset (I have it now, of course). I had t otrace out connections by hand. Finding hte grounds was quite easy, I then traced the remaining pins back to 1488s and 1489s to determine which were inputs nad which were outputs. It was then a 'simple' matter of sticking the card in my 11/45, writing to things like the DTR (?) control register and seeing which pins changed state, doing thwe same with the line break register (to find the TxD pins), then reading the DCCD register and seeing which pin changed each bit, and so on. The remaining pins had to be the RxD inputs (the only ones I couldn't directly test), it wasn't too hard to work out which was for each channel. > > > IIRC, on the DZ11 the connector is parallel to one of the short edges of > > the PCB... > > It is. I think it was designed to be easy to route in equipment of the > 11/34 era. It's not that nice in a BA11-K (you have to fold the cable over), it goes very nicely in a BA11-F (11/40, 11/45 box), since you can plug the cable in from the top after opening the upper fan tray. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 17:33:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:33:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711151502m13db2d26m22b196f8ceffeaed@mail.gmail.com> from "Mark Meiss" at Nov 15, 7 06:02:12 pm Message-ID: > Well, it's certainly got the chickenhead logo on it, at least. I'll > take a closer look at the label on the rear tonight and look for more > identifying characteristics. Maybe looking at the main PCB will reveal something. The typical Philips monitor this is likely to be based on -- the CM8883 and related models -- has a sparate PSU board standinger vertically at the RHS of the unit (with the power swtich built onto the fixing bracket, thenre's a main PCB flat at the bottom with a daughterboard for the RGB inputs. The colour decoder IC is likely to have a Philips (SAAxxxx) number too. Am I correct in thinking this will have separate Y and C inputs on it? If so, it's not any of the common Philips models simply badged, but it might be a very simple modification of one. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 18:01:15 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:01:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <774989.53171.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- JP Hindin wrote: > I didn't get any OS disks with the Victor, although > I know it runs MSDOS > I'm not sure how the disks are formatted. I tried > with a random diskette > labelled "MSDOS" and didn't get any joy - but the > machine appeared to > power up and gave me an adorable little graphic of a > floppy disk that > blinked, presumably indicating no OS diskette - a > good sign it's in some > kind of working shape :) > > Does anyone out there have a Victor/Sirius with OS > diskettes they might be > able to clone for me? > > Muchas gracias! NO. Absolutely not. I've had Vics and even a Vicky for over ~1.5 years now, but haven't booted a one yet. There are those that can help you on here (not me!). We're working on swapping rom images at the moment (unless I'm too far out of the loop). Be advised the Vic formats a DD disk to about 1.2megs, so it is a highly proprietary format. And even the DOS is customized for it's hardware. Good luck pal!! Heh heh. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 18:14:48 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:14:48 -0500 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473CD421.1000107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com> <473C5F65.21924.1ADC8E13@cclist.sydex.com> <473CD421.1000107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > AFAIK there's no transmission equipment as part of the SZ42 itself though, so > something would still need to be hooked between that and a giant aerial in > order to do the transmission; I think it was this bit that Will was interested in. No, I am interested in the thing that modulates the bitstream, before the transmitter. The modem, basically, not the transmitter. -- Will From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Nov 15 18:24:29 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:24:29 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/750 Config and Diagnostics, anyone? In-Reply-To: <20071115085537.GB32121@usap.gov> References: <473B9DCC.6030009@rogerwilco.org> <200711150054.22110.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1195112938.473bf9ea6c939@www.jblaser.org> <200711150311.36338.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20071115085537.GB32121@usap.gov> Message-ID: <473CE33D.2070105@rogerwilco.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> No, the "middle" slots of the backplane are different than the first and >> last (UNIBUS IN/OUT) slots. >> > > Pat, you beat me to it, but let me add that in some cases, where you > have MUD (Modified Unibus Device) slots, it can be *very bad* to stick > a terminator in a peripheral slot. I'm pulling out of the back of my > memory that it's really, really bad to do that to an 11/725 or 11/730 - > you can blow the power supply. > Good to know, thanks for helping me dip my toe into the Unibus pool. Obviously, I haven't done my homework when it comes to Unibus. That's this weekend's project. I'm going to move fairly slowly, and carefully, with this system since I'm so far behind the curve at this point. > The important thing to remember is what Pat already said - the in/out > slots are different from the ones in the middle. > > Unlike OMNIBUS or VME or ISA busses, the Unibus is not a simple > pin-1-to-pin-1, pin-2-to-pin-2 kind of pattern. > > Yes, that's coming through loud and clear, and I appreciate it. >> What you can do, however, is pull the M9202, and put the terminator in >> its place (in the CPU backplane side, not the UNIBUS backplane side), >> and just ignore the UNIBUS backplane entirely. That's probably the >> best thing to do for now. >> > > That should work quite satisfactorily until you have a Unibus controller > you'd like to boot from. > Okay, good confirmation from the two of you eases my mind, and this is exactly what I plan to do until I get some mass storage interfaces. I'm still 'in the market' for some of those system diagnostics, if anyone can dig any up. > G727s were very common in the day. What was less common were the dual- > height GC7273 (or Software Results' GC747) grant cards that also jumpered > the NPR wire. If you are down to the booting stage and you get strange > behavior, be sure to check your NPR wires. Disk and tape controllers > tend to need the NPR wire off the backplane to be able to make the > "Non Processor Request" (to initiate what is called in other architectures > a DMA cycle), some comms controllers like the DMF32 also need the NPR > wire off, while other comms controllers like the DZ-11 don't need it, > so it should be jumpered on the backplane, if the card doesn't happen > to jumper it at the card edge (newer peripherals might, older peripherals > won't). > > Also good to know. I' have noticed what I think are the NPR wires on the backplane pins, and after looking again, I can readily see that the two end slots are definitely wired up differently than the others. I see, too, where signals are/were pulled off for the original DZ11 and other devices that must have been in the backplane at one time. As I said, I'm going to go slow on this, since prior experience and self-education is still lacking. We'll take baby steps at first here. I hope you guys don't mind answering such newbie questions, there will definitely be more to come! ;-) > The "easy" way is to remove all the NPR wires from all nine slots > in a DD11-DK, then use dual-height grant cards. The harder, but > less expensive way is, to check the needs of your cards and adjust > the backplane accordingly. If you don't make frequent changes, it's > not as bad as it sounds. If you are changing cards every month (as > we did, for development, etc), nine dual-height grant cards is cheaper > than an hour or two of head-scratching. > Well, I'm sure that once I get a UDA50 and/or some flavor of SMD controller I won't be fiddling with the configuration much more. So, if I can cross the Unibus configuration bridge safely once, I'll probably be okay going forward. > We had an 11/750 that couldn't talk to its tape drive out of the box. > Turns out we had forgotten to remove the NPR wire for that slot. I > think it was 4 hours before we remembered to check (since all of our > other machines had *no* NPR wires, we got out of the habit of looking). > > Ha! Hopefully I remember to review this thread when the time comes for my disk controller installation(s)! :) - Jared From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 15 18:28:58 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:28:58 +0000 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <473C570F.19955.1ABBFFD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711132317.lADNHlm3023774@floodgap.com> , <473CBA5A.3080905@mdrconsult.com>, <1195164127.6621.11.camel@elric.inet> <473C570F.19955.1ABBFFD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1195172938.6621.13.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 14:26 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2007 at 22:02, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Take a look at AoE - ATA over Ethernet. The spec for it is eight pages > > long, and is basically describing an ATA packet wrapped in an Ethernet > > frame. > > How about ATAoAL? ATA over Aldis Lamp? Should be doable... Yeah, coupled to a single-platter 33 1/3rpm drive... Gordon From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 15 18:59:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:59:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 15, 7 09:58:18 pm" Message-ID: <200711160059.lAG0xmG8019588@floodgap.com> > > Thankfully, I already had a DB-9 to DIN-8 cable in the Big Box of CBM > > Scraps, so I didn't have to order any cable-making parts from Mouser, > > but it does bring up a question: how many potentially problematic > > variations on the same model number did Commodore make? I know that > > _Did_ Commoodore make it? 8 pin DIN for an RGB input suggests 'Philips' > to me. Well, it *is* a Philips monitor, but Commodore did sell those cables. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters, public health officer: "Careful with that pox, Eugene!" ------ From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 15 19:14:34 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 15 Nov 2007 17:14:34 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <1195175674.473ceefaa9dde@secure.zipcon.net> the C= disk drives were pretty much all smart drives weren't they? the big dual drive units had a controller card in them that was basically a small computer (IIRC) also Atari disk drives had a 650x IIRC in them as well as a disk controller chip (once again IIRC.) From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 15 19:29:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:29:50 +0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <1195175674.473ceefaa9dde@secure.zipcon.net> References: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> <1195175674.473ceefaa9dde@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <20071116012950.GA5718@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 05:14:34PM -0800, Geoff Reed wrote: > the C= disk drives were pretty much all smart drives weren't they? Yes. > the big dual drive units had a controller card in them that was > basically a small computer (IIRC) "Controller card" might not be the best term, but yes, there was a one board inside with one or more 6502-family microprocessors (depending on the drive model). Older, dual drives tended to have a couple of processors (6504s were common) with a few K of shared memory; newer drives tended towards one microprocessor (a full 6502 was common), with a software scheme to simulate the multi-processor model of the older drives. The older, dual drives also had one analog board for both drive mechanisms. Newer drives had the analog circuitry on the mainboard with the processor. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Nov-2007 at 01:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.9 F (-40.5 C) Windchill -68.0 F (-55.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.7 kts Grid 139 Barometer 680.6 mb (10606 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 15 18:03:26 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:03:26 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: <200711151122.lAFBMJRa043855@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711151122.lAFBMJRa043855@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54f2fa697ce6b62b51f273025d991da5@valleyimplants.com> On Nov 15, 2007, at 3:22 AM, Chuck Guizis wrote: >> Which reminds me of a comment I saw somewhere about the possibility >> of having >> a SCSI bus with more than one host adapter on it. Is that even >> possible? Supported on (some? all?) Alphas for clustering. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 15 19:49:30 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:49:30 -0600 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071116012950.GA5718@usap.gov> References: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> <1195175674.473ceefaa9dde@secure.zipcon.net> <20071116012950.GA5718@usap.gov> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071115194548.05437698@mail.threedee.com> At 07:29 PM 11/15/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 05:14:34PM -0800, Geoff Reed wrote: >> the C= disk drives were pretty much all smart drives weren't they? > >Yes. While dumpster-diving the just-closed Los Gatos office of Amiga, I found a 1541. Afterwards I asked one of the engineers about it and he said that the 1541 was one of the better computers made by Commodore. I think he was joking, of course, given the horrendous bottlenecks in its software and its bus protocol. That night, the Amiga sign from the front lawn disappeared and somehow made its way to Topeka. - John From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 15 20:22:29 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:22:29 -0600 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:14:48 -0500 > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware > > > AFAIK there's no transmission equipment as part of the SZ42 itself though, so > > something would still need to be hooked between that and a giant aerial in > > order to do the transmission; I think it was this bit that Will was interested in. > > No, I am interested in the thing that modulates the bitstream, before > the transmitter. The modem, basically, not the transmitter. > > -- > Will Will, I did some fairly bizarre modem design for a downhole well logging camera, transmitting power and digital video over 5 miles of coax. I can probably answer any modulation questions you may have, or point you to the literature I used in my research and design. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Boo!?Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 15 19:19:38 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:19:38 -0800 Subject: Drive sizes (WAS Re: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation) In-Reply-To: <200711152228.lAFMS5V3053903@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711152228.lAFMS5V3053903@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2007, at 2:28 PM, Roy wrote: > I mentioned it in here because it came up in conversation with > somebody in the > list a while back and they said something about the 1-2G range of > sizes being > particularly useful for some things, though I can't recall at the > moment > just what those things were offhand. > IRIX 4D1-3.3 seems to not like drives much over 1GB, many VAXstations don't like drives over 1.05GB for VMS, SCSI Apollo/DOMAIN systems don't like drives much over 2GB. I know there's more but can't recall right now. There should probably be a "disk size limits FAQ" somewhere to hold all of this From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 15 21:32:44 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:32:44 -0600 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:14:48 -0500 > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware > > > AFAIK there's no transmission equipment as part of the SZ42 itself though, so > > something would still need to be hooked between that and a giant aerial in > > order to do the transmission; I think it was this bit that Will was interested in. > > No, I am interested in the thing that modulates the bitstream, before > the transmitter. The modem, basically, not the transmitter. > > -- > Will Will, I did some fairly bizarre modem design for a downhole well logging camera, transmitting power and digital video over 5 miles of coax. I can probably answer any modulation questions you may have, or point you to the literature I used in my research and design. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From useddec at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 21:55:51 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:55:51 -0600 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473CAF85.2080606@yahoo.co.uk> References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473CA713.4040202@yahoo.co.uk> <310f50ab0711151210r24ebc866i3a07dab57a6e57d1@mail.gmail.com> <310f50ab0711151212o2709d8adw343b03fd0c55670@mail.gmail.com> <473CAB67.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <473CAF85.2080606@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <624966d60711151955g6c46b9dbp54b14ed09a720871@mail.gmail.com> There used to be a nice "arial" at RAF Chicksands in Bedfordshire. I was there in the 70's and assume it's still there. Paul Anderson On 11/15/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > woodelf wrote: > > from at fu3.org wrote: > > > >> Disregard my premature statement; yours is here too. > > Who do you think will crash first? The real hardware or the software > > version? > > ISTR the Colossus guys saying that one of the main problems was the lack > of > transmit power on the German side (due to rules and regulations) - it's a > fraction of what it would have been in wartime. Plus of course the > receiving > aerial is tiny compared to the originals too! > > Glad my post turned up and I wasn't going mad, anyway. Just another little > glitch in the Matrix I guess :-) > > J. > > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 15 19:24:01 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:24:01 -0800 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation In-Reply-To: <200711152228.lAFMS5V3053903@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711152228.lAFMS5V3053903@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2007, at 2:28 PM, Chuck wrote: > How about ATAoAL? ATA over Aldis Lamp? Should be doable... > The standard should include a bridge to either Bongo drums or smoke signals. The smoke could be produced by old tantalums to bring it back on-topic. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 22:25:13 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:25:13 -0500 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I did some fairly bizarre modem design for a downhole well logging camera, transmitting power and digital video over 5 miles of coax. I can probably answer any modulation questions you may have, or point you to the literature I used in my research and design. I think I can be pretty certain to say the Germans were doing nothing really odd back then. I am more interested in exactly what kind of set they were using to do the FSK modulation (and demodulation). -- Will From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Nov 15 23:02:54 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:02:54 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <473D247E.6060507@oldskool.org> Alexis wrote: > There's a line of chip from Analog Devices, AD273/AD274/AD275 and others, > which will convert from RGB to NTSC/PAL. It gives composite and split video > outputs. They're in the US$5 range. Perhaps this could be used with my > previous circuit that converts TTL to analogue? Possibly, but I'm still not sure that it would handle the intensity bit of CGA (RGBI). I have ordered an Extron which should convert TTL to analog and also split it out to R/G/B/H (vertical sync on green). From there I hope to connect it to a scan converter that claims to go down to 15Khz horizontal. I'm still not crossing my fingers for all 16 colors though. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From tponsford at rnsmte.com Thu Nov 15 23:17:04 2007 From: tponsford at rnsmte.com (tponsford) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:17:04 -0700 Subject: PDP by the pound Message-ID: <473D27D0.1070803@rnsmte.com> HI All A friend mentioned to me he saw what looked to be some DEC equipment at a local scrap yard. Looking through the scrap I saw a really sad looking rack with some RA81 and 82's. They looked too damaged and too hard to dig out, but as I was leaving, out of the corner of my eye, I spied another "buried" cabinet with 8" floppy drives. Curiosity got the best of me and a closer look the cabinet said KEVEX 1600. The floppies looked to be in good condition so I removed the cover plate and lo and behold, a Qbus 11/03 greeted me! I yanked the third-party qbus chassis out and also the *" drive cabinet, which turned out to be a DSD 210! The scrap yard charged me by the pound, around $20! Cheers Tom Ponsford From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 23:17:25 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:17:25 -0600 Subject: Need HP75 Manual Message-ID: <51ea77730711152117n73343727w3de86ecfa405cd2f@mail.gmail.com> Hi all - wondering if anyone has a scan of the manual for the HP75 portable computer. If not, I'd like to talk to anyone that has operated theirs with the card reader and can give me some help re: the command syntax? I've finally gotten a power supply for mine (thanks to the big junkpile at VCF!) and I have a whole stack of magstrips and no idea how to read them. I found a page with partial docs that allowed me to catalog a strip, but that's where I'm stuck. Thanks in advance -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 15 23:22:37 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:22:37 -0600 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:25:13 -0500 > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware > > > I did some fairly bizarre modem design for a downhole well logging camera, transmitting power and digital video over 5 miles of coax. I can probably answer any modulation questions you may have, or point you to the literature I used in my research and design. > > I think I can be pretty certain to say the Germans were doing nothing > really odd back then. I am more interested in exactly what kind of set > they were using to do the FSK modulation (and demodulation). > > -- > Will You might check out Heddy Lamar, and spread spectrum modulation on the wiki. It looks like Telefunken was into this for secret communications. It might turn out to be quite a bit more sophisticated than you think. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 15 23:36:45 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:36:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: from Randy Dawson at "Nov 15, 7 11:22:37 pm" Message-ID: <200711160536.lAG5ajb0027942@floodgap.com> > You might check out Heddy Lamar, Hedley. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ (if anyone will admit to having watched Blazing Saddles) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 15 23:39:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:39:36 -0800 Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem In-Reply-To: <774989.53171.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <774989.53171.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473CBC98.29171.1C489C26@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 16:01, Chris M wrote: > Be advised the Vic formats a DD disk to about > 1.2megs, so it is a highly proprietary format. And > even the DOS is customized for it's hardware. Good > luck pal!! Heh heh. Well, it's best cloned by someone with a Sirius/Victor. IIRC, the drive is CLV and was pretty much sui generis. I've got a Victor 9000 boot disk that *maybe* could be cloned using the Catweasel, but I've never tried to do it. Cheers, Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 23:47:35 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:47:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heathkit 89 in Seattle Message-ID: <587952.89994.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Do not contact me, contact Patrick below: ------------------------- I have a heathkit I think H89, not sure how to tell. Should I dump it or is it worth something to someone? If so feel free to contact me. Patrick Seattle WA p_miceli at hotmail.com --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 16 01:57:53 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:57:53 +0000 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <200711160536.lAG5ajb0027942@floodgap.com> References: <200711160536.lAG5ajb0027942@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1195199873.6482.0.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 21:36 -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > You might check out Heddy Lamar, > > Hedley. Pretty sure it was Hedy. "Hedley Lamarr" was a character in Blazing Saddles, I thought? Gordon From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 16 02:07:15 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:07:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <1195199873.6482.0.camel@elric.inet> References: <200711160536.lAG5ajb0027942@floodgap.com> <1195199873.6482.0.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 21:36 -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > You might check out Heddy Lamar, > > > > Hedley. > > Pretty sure it was Hedy. "Hedley Lamarr" was a character in Blazing > Saddles, I thought? The plant sang "How about a date with Hedy Lamar? You're gonna get it!" -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Nov 16 03:11:36 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:11:36 -0000 Subject: Colossus code-breaking again (Jules Richardson) References: <200711151749.lAFHneNx048860@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003501c82830$b146af40$911ca8c0@mss.local> > Nice article up on the BBC news website about the Cipher Challenge that's > going on today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7094881.stm > ... I've not been involved in that side of things, but it's been > interesting > watching Tony and his crew running around the last few weeks trying to get > everything put together (there was a huge amount to do on the > reception/intercept side of things in particular) > Saw that on BBC 1 news last night, would have liked a bit more info but at least they actually covered it on national news. Do we know how the test went and who gor there first, BBC quoting them at finishing about the same time. Mike. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 16 03:44:01 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:44:01 +0000 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473D247E.6060507@oldskool.org> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> <473D247E.6060507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1195206241.6482.5.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 23:02 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Alexis wrote: > > There's a line of chip from Analog Devices, AD273/AD274/AD275 and others, > > which will convert from RGB to NTSC/PAL. It gives composite and split video > > outputs. They're in the US$5 range. Perhaps this could be used with my > > previous circuit that converts TTL to analogue? > > Possibly, but I'm still not sure that it would handle the intensity bit > of CGA (RGBI). We made a bodge cable for RGBI to analogue RGB. It's just some resistors, really. Gordon From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 16 07:39:24 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 05:39:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <1195199873.6482.0.camel@elric.inet> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Nov 16, 7 07:57:53 am" Message-ID: <200711161339.lAGDdOU5032050@floodgap.com> > > > You might check out Heddy Lamar, > > > > Hedley. > > Pretty sure it was Hedy. "Hedley Lamarr" was a character in Blazing > Saddles, I thought? Yes, he is. ;) (hint: see bottom of sig in my original message) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. ------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 16 09:24:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:24:07 -0800 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: References: <473C2C04.27464.1A13D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> <473C4D47.2910.1A95CACF@cclist.sydex.com> <473C5F65.21924.1ADC8E13@cclist.sydex.com> <473CD421.1000107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > >> AFAIK there's no transmission equipment as part of the SZ42 itself though, so >> something would still need to be hooked between that and a giant aerial in >> order to do the transmission; I think it was this bit that Will was interested in. > > No, I am interested in the thing that modulates the bitstream, before > the transmitter. The modem, basically, not the transmitter. > > -- > Will Hi I thought most of these messages were sent to stations that only had operators. In that case, it would have been sent by hand with CW. Still, at the rates they were sending data in those days, FSK could have been as simple as a solenoid on a capacitor, tied to the frequency reference. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Boo!?Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 15 06:35:29 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 07:35:29 -0500 Subject: S100 Floppy Controller Question Message-ID: <0JRJ008QWS6Z9NT2@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:21:34 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >---------Original Messages: >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:48:21 -0500 >From: Allison >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question >> >>Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question >> From: M H Stein >> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:13:48 -0500 >> To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > > >> >>I think you might have misunderstood, Allison; sounds like you thought I was >>talking about replacing an FDC with one other than what the BIOS is configured >>for; obviously that will require mods to the BIOS. > >Ok, then same fdc but sufficiently differnt drive requires new (modified) bios. > >Changes that affect a bios: > > Motor on/motor runs continiously. > > Step rate, head load delay, motor on delay > > Different on disk format (likely with 8 to 5") > > >>What I was responding to was a previous post that suggested replacing an 8" >>drive with a 5 1/4" HD drive might require mods to the BIOS, and I just wanted >>to mention that this is not the case with a Cromemco 16/64FDC, to which a >>TM848 and a JU475 appear identical as long as the jumpers on the 5 1/4 drive >>are set correctly and it supplies /READY, and that this may also apply to some >>other controllers. Also, if the controller has both 8" and 5 1/4 connectors and >>they are effectively in parallel as they are on the Cromemco, you may not >>even need a 50<>34 pin adapter cable. > >if the drive supplies ready _MAYBE_. If the Drive has the same step rate. > >-------------Reply: > >Well, I should know better than to argue (again ;-) with you of all people, but... > >Since we're talking about 'modern' 5 1/4" HD drives, Motor on and Ready >are jumper selectable on all the drives I've run across, step rates etc. are >faster than the 8" equivalent (except perhaps the PerScis), and with the >same speed and data rate the disk formats are identical, no? the drive used are a factor and many of the later designed systems had what could be described as an adaptive, they have a bios written to accomodate a wider variety of drives. >In any case I'm only specifically talking about my Cromemco system and it >seems to work fine for me. It gives me 1.1 MB on a 5 1/4HD diskette instead >of 360KB and lets me deal with both 5 1/4 and 8" images conveniently in a >single 5 1/4" FH bay box, without the complication of the 24V supply, 50 pin >cable, unreliable old 8" drives etc. To initially read & convert my 8" disks I just >temporarily plugged an external drive w/PS into the unused 50 pin connector. >I haven't tried it yet, but it should also make recreating an 8" image on a PC >easier, and it puts some 5 1/4HD drives & disks to a good use, which otherwise >would end up on the shelf or in the trash since I don't use them on PCs. Cromemco is one such example and much later than Altair/Tarbell. >After installing the drive I happened to run across some old posts in the archives >dealing with this very topic (on a Cromemco); apparently it was easy and worked >fine for some and not for others. I just wanted to add my name to the former >group in case it had relevance to someone else with a Cromemco FDC or >_perhaps_ even with a different make of controller if it's similar, and especially >mention to one of the original posters that it might not be necessary to kludge up a >50<>34 pin adapter cable (which he was reluctant to make) if the two interfaces >on his FDC are handled the same way as on the Cromemco FDC. Same was the case for AmproLB, SB180, and Compupro. Generally most fo the floppies are close to "setup, plug and play". However really old drives for example SA800, SA400 it's fairly easy to get the signals right but things like 40ms step rate (sa400) and 12ms step rate(sa800) have to be driven by software. After about 1981/82 design had fewer problems and 5.25 floppies started to look more alike than different electronically. The gotchas still lurk out there. Allison >mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 15 16:49:16 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:49:16 -0500 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane Message-ID: <0JRK0074HKOLPCZ5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:50:34 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >This faster signal might be better for the disk drive? >> >> Potentially. Remember FM floppy recording was passe' by the early >> 80s with every one needed far greater space. It want even a >> consideration buy time PC 3.5" floppies hit the street. > >As I understand it, FM at 125bps has (only) pulse spacings that can occur >in MFM at 250kbps. The latter has some other spacing too, of course, but >the point is that unless you're trying to be awkward, it's impossible to >make a drive that will correctly handle any MFM data at 250kbps that will >not also correctly handle FM data at 125kbps. (About the only way you >could do it is if the drive tries to decode the data back to user bytes >and then re-encodes them onto the disk in a totally different way. I know >of know floppy drive that ever tried something like that!). > >There should be no problem at all in using a 3.5" DD floppy drive with >the FM data stream that uou'd have sent to an SA400. Doesn't completely work that way. If it were bandwidth only maybe. The problem is it's timing and that causes peak shifts that increase with jamming those bits in a more confined space (flux tranistions per inch) and that makes 3.5" track 000 an approximation of SA400L track 41ish. That doesnt' factor the lower S/S+N ratio of 135 tpi against 48TPI. Will it work, I may but if it doesn't work well it may not be broken. Reason is the DD FDCs (both 765 and 1793/2793) have additional hardware to add a timing shift based on pattern written and better feature extraction for read. This is not present on 1771 based boards. Allison >-tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 16 07:57:12 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:57:12 -0500 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... Message-ID: <0JRL00BZ4QQMNPW2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... > From: M H Stein > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:29:05 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >-----------Original Message: >Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:32:02 +0000 >From: Gordon JC Pearce >Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... > >On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 00:32 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Didn't that "Superbrain" computer use a couple of Z80 chips in there? IIRC, >> one was the "main" CPU and the other one handled I/O tasks of some sort >> (disk?). > > >It does. I believe one handles disk accesses, while the other does the >rest. Once I get mine working, I'll tell you more. > >Gordon > >----------Reply: >Cromemco also had Z80s on their I/O processor boards, and when the later 680x0 >CPU boards dropped the Z80 you could still run your Z80 programs on the I/O card. > >mike This is not uncommon. H89 had two, one for the terminal and the other was the processor for the computer. My NS*Horizon had two when I added the Teletek HDC(hard disk) as that has a local z80. When I added a smart FDC of my own design and later smart printer spooler and other IO with local cpu the nuber fo cpus grew. The Compupro system can easily have three, ZPB, Their mux board and any of the hard disk controllers. I have one that has 68000, 8085 and Z80 (maincpu, mux and Disk3). It's something that isn't unusual as it would seem. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 10:00:47 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:00:47 -0500 Subject: PDP by the pound In-Reply-To: <473D27D0.1070803@rnsmte.com> References: <473D27D0.1070803@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2007, at 12:17 AM, tponsford wrote: > A friend mentioned to me he saw what looked to be some DEC equipment > at a local scrap yard. Looking through the scrap I saw a really sad > looking > rack with some RA81 and 82's. They looked too damaged and too hard > to dig out, > but as I was leaving, out of the corner of my eye, I spied another > "buried" cabinet > with 8" floppy drives. Curiosity got the best of me and a closer > look the cabinet > said KEVEX 1600. The floppies looked to be in good condition so I > removed the > cover plate and lo and behold, a Qbus 11/03 greeted me! I yanked > the third-party > qbus chassis out and also the *" drive cabinet, which turned out to > be a DSD 210! > > The scrap yard charged me by the pound, around $20! SWEET! That was probably an EDAX system for an electron microscope. I have one for my SEM but it's not quite complete. It's built around a PDP-11/23 with a Z8000 processor to offload the spectrum analysis. Now that I'm making some progress getting my lab built out, I hope to look into that stuff again soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 16 10:51:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:51:26 -0800 Subject: Tarbell is making me insane In-Reply-To: <0JRK0074HKOLPCZ5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRK0074HKOLPCZ5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <473D5A0E.31661.1EAFB1AF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2007 at 17:49, Allison wrote: > Reason is the DD FDCs (both 765 and 1793/2793) > have additional hardware to add a timing shift based on pattern written > and better feature extraction for read. To recapitulate what I posted a couple of days ago... IIRC, neither the 765 nor the 179x/279x employs write precomp when writing FM, only MFM. (Just checked the 279x app notes to make sure). Write compensating FM recording based on an MFM algorithm makes no sense and probably is counter-productive. "Bit shift" is a bit of a misnomer. What happens with oxide-coated media is that flux transitions occurring close together tend to push the edges of the domain apart. That is, the previous domain boundary is actually pushed slightly back in time as the current one is being written. Write precompensation circuits examine the data stream as it's being written and make decisions based on the last bit written, the current bit being written and the next bit to be written. It sounds complicated, but it's nothing more than a shift register and some gates. This "bit shift" is peculiar to coated media--it doesn't occur to nearly the same extent with plated media. The problem is especially acute with MFM as compared to FM, because while the roughly the same number of flux transitions is used in MFM to record twice the data as FM, the position of the flux transitions is more critical. Just another case of TAANSTAFL. The biggest problem with the Tarbell controller is that it uses a simple counter comprised of a couple of 74LS161s and a few bits of "glue"to do its job. While this is fine for conservatively-recorded media such as 8" diskettes--and requires no adjustment by the user-- it falls on its face when smaller media with more demanding needs are employed. An analogue phase-locked-loop is far and away the better solution and can accommodate all sorts of timing irregularities, but it requires adjustment for proper operation. You pays your money and takes your choice. The WD9216 is a counter-type separator with a lock ratio of about +/- 30 percent of the nominal center frequency, which is quite a bit better than the very simple Tarbell circuit. One could probably program a 20MHz 8-pin PIC microcontroller nowadays and get very good data separation for less money than either a not- easy-to-find 9216 or an analogue PLL. Cheers, Chuck From tponsford at rnsmte.com Fri Nov 16 13:12:51 2007 From: tponsford at rnsmte.com (tponsford) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:12:51 -0700 Subject: PDP by the pound In-Reply-To: References: <473D27D0.1070803@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: <473DEBB3.1010201@rnsmte.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 16, 2007, at 12:17 AM, tponsford wrote: > >> A friend mentioned to me he saw what looked to be some DEC equipment >> at a local scrap yard. Looking through the scrap I saw a really sad >> looking >> rack with some RA81 and 82's. They looked too damaged and too hard >> to dig out, >> but as I was leaving, out of the corner of my eye, I spied another >> "buried" cabinet >> with 8" floppy drives. Curiosity got the best of me and a closer >> look the cabinet >> said KEVEX 1600. The floppies looked to be in good condition so I >> removed the >> cover plate and lo and behold, a Qbus 11/03 greeted me! I yanked the >> third-party >> qbus chassis out and also the *" drive cabinet, which turned out to >> be a DSD 210! >> >> The scrap yard charged me by the pound, around $20! > > > SWEET! That was probably an EDAX system for an electron > microscope. I have one for my SEM but it's not quite complete. It's > built around a PDP-11/23 with a Z8000 processor to offload the > spectrum analysis. Now that I'm making some progress getting my lab > built out, I hope to look into that stuff again soon. > > -Dave > In the Kevex, the other card cage which presumably had the other cards for the microscope /lab system were already stripped out. I think the cover over the qbus chassis saved the qbus cards in it. But I have the whole 8" floppy subsystem all in one cabinet and the DSD qbus controller. They made controllers for this 210 floppy cabinet for the pdp-8's and Unibus pdp's too. This is the third or fourth such console/cabinet I've picked up in the last year or two. The others were Tracor Northern, one which I believed contained the cards for a control system of scanning electron microscope and the other was for some kind of VLSI or electronic circuit development. They were 11/23 based too. These were all picked up at the local university auctions! We did had an EDAX system come thru about a year ago. It came with the Electron microscope! The salvager who bought the microscope didn't/forgot to buy the control unit, which I did for the pdp system. When he realized his mistake he made me an offer I could not refuse! By the way, anyone is welcome to these chassis and the boards for them (minus the qbus boards and drives) for the cost of shipping. I de-racked them from the steel console/cabinets so all that is left are the chassis and the graphic card sub-systems. My brother picked up a Comtal Vision One graphic system with an 11/73 in it and the cabinet with three rows of graphic boards (around 30-40 cards I think) is still in his carport. It was used for astronomy in at one of the the many observatories here in Arizona! I believe he still has most of the cabling, the Color Graphic monitors that came with the system. He, of course, removed the qbus boards and the 9-track tape drive but it otherwise is intact. He wants to get rid of it to someone who might be interested in it. Cheers Tom From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 16 13:10:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:10:57 -0700 Subject: Fwd: 1979 CGI on PDP-11/70 w/Tektronix 4014 Message-ID: >From a friend of mine from Project DELTA. Watching Ralph do his thing with the Tektronix terminal is what kept me interested in programming and made me want to study computer graphics. Hi Guys, I finally got around to having some old Super-8 movies converted to QuickTime, and then posted them to YouTube. These show some wireframe computer graphics I developed in high school thanks to project Delta. A bit crude but bear in mind that it's 1979 and I didn't refer to any literature and wrote it all in Basic+2 spaghetti code ;-) Graphics shot directly from Tektronix display (stop-motion used to get animation effect) using high-speed B&W film. Note many of the scenes are stereoscopic: if you have a viewer you'll see the stereoscopic image or if you cross your eyes you will see the image with reverse perspective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue4Yo_a34XM Music video for Pink Floyd's "Welcome to the Machine". This is primarily pastel on paper, but there is a portion in the middle using printouts from the Tektronix display which I colorized by holding a match under the paper. There's also a shot of a Beehive (?) terminal at the end running a rasterized Game of Life. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAfK1rL9fCw -Ralph -- Ralph Gonzalez ralphgonz at gmail.com -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Nov 16 12:56:15 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:56:15 +0000 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:24:07 PST." Message-ID: <200711161856.SAA29722@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, dwight elvey said: > > > > > > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > > >> AFAIK there's no transmission equipment as part of the SZ42 itself though, so > >> something would still need to be hooked between that and a giant aerial in > >> order to do the transmission; I think it was this bit that Will was interested in. > > > > No, I am interested in the thing that modulates the bitstream, before > > the transmitter. The modem, basically, not the transmitter. > > > > -- > > Will > > Hi > I thought most of these messages were sent to stations that only > had operators. In that case, it would have been sent by hand with > CW. Colossus was built to decode messages in rtty code sent by the Lorenz Geheimschreiber cypher machine. > Still, at the rates they were sending data in those days, FSK > could have been as simple as a solenoid on a capacitor, tied to > the frequency reference. That was the normal way of doing things at that time. Some of us can still do it that way... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 16 13:30:25 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:30:25 -0500 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... Message-ID: <01C8285D.5B117740@MSE_D03> ---------Original Messages: Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:57:12 -0500 From: Allison Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... > From: M H Stein > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:29:05 -0500 >Cromemco also had Z80s on their I/O processor boards, and when the later 680x0 >CPU boards dropped the Z80 you could still run your Z80 programs on the I/O card. > >mike This is not uncommon. H89 had two, one for the terminal and the other was the processor for the computer. My NS*Horizon had two when I added the Teletek HDC(hard disk) as that has a local z80. When I added a smart FDC of my own design and later smart printer spooler and other IO with local cpu the nuber fo cpus grew. The Compupro system can easily have three, ZPB, Their mux board and any of the hard disk controllers. I have one that has 68000, 8085 and Z80 (maincpu, mux and Disk3). It's something that isn't unusual as it would seem. Allison ----------Reply: Well, I didn't say or imply that dual-CPUs like Cromemco's DPU and XPU or intelligent I/O co-processors like their IOP and Octart were uncommon; in fact I was just adding Cromemco to the list under discussion which ranged from CDC big iron down to C-64s, and both C-64s and Cromemcos could easily have 4 or 5 CPUs talking to each other one way or another. But now that you mention it, I did think what Cromemco did when their XXU 68010/20 CPU board finally dropped the Z80 _was_ a little unusual; although the Z80 was gone from the processor board, your Z-80 CDOS or CP/M application could still use the Z80 on the existing I/O board when it wasn't handling I/O traffic. Did anyone else run *application* programs like a word processor or spreadsheet (as opposed to applications like the C-64's disk utilities) on an I/O co-processor board? And that's not quite the same either as e.g. an Apple or the SuperPet, which effectively just used the main system as console and memory for an *added* co-processor. Admittedly, at some point the distinctions do get a little blurred. m From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 13:38:05 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:38:05 -0600 Subject: Need HP75 Manual In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711152117n73343727w3de86ecfa405cd2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730711152117n73343727w3de86ecfa405cd2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730711161138i73908be8tfb34bf1f97f3a912@mail.gmail.com> Thanks to everyone who replied, I now have manuals for my HP75C and D. I'm set to load 650-byte magstrips all night long! -j On 11/15/07, Jason T wrote: > Hi all - wondering if anyone has a scan of the manual for the HP75 From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 16 13:42:07 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:42:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: Handling an documentation archive. Message-ID: <11772.88.211.153.27.1195242127.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello all, This may be somewhat off topic, but it certainly is a serious request. A little history first. About a year ago, I got a call from a company close where I live and asked me if I was interested in some old DEC documentation. I collected about an office cupboard full of usefull and less usefull material. Since July this year I work for them, and they now know me and what my hobby is (PDP-11's). I just got a call from the head of the repair dept (they repair a lot of weird things, including old DEC stuff). Basically he told me that management is considering to get rid of most of the older technical documentation archive. I have seen this archive, and it is about 100 meters of documentation, not only DEC stuff, but also some Sun Microsystems, HP and Dell material. Some of the manuals are available in several revisions, some not. All in all about 40 office cupboards in total....... One of the options is just to get rid of it, but another option is more favoured, which is to find a company or someone willing to scan it in. There is a budget, and one very likely possibility is to make the scanned material available for everyone except maybe those documents which are still considered valuable by the respective owner of this docu. So, now I'm looking for leads to individuals or organisation who have the capacity to scan this amount of material in and convert it into PDF formatted documents. If you have any lead or info, please contact me off-list. Thanks, Ed From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 13:42:48 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:42:48 -0500 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <200711161856.SAA29722@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200711161856.SAA29722@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: > > Still, at the rates they were sending data in those days, FSK > > could have been as simple as a solenoid on a capacitor, tied to > > the frequency reference. > > That was the normal way of doing things at that time. Some of us > can still do it that way... Modem technology of the late 1930s and World War 2 era was far more advanced that the simple trick described above. FSK and tone modulation were both characterized by fairly complex equipments for the time with active, tube circuitry. Many sets could also cram a few telegraph or teleprinter channels onto one voice channel or pair of wires. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Nov 16 13:46:21 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:46:21 -0500 Subject: Handling an documentation archive. In-Reply-To: <11772.88.211.153.27.1195242127.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <11772.88.211.153.27.1195242127.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <473DF38D.1060304@atarimuseum.com> I'm sure Sellam Ismail or Al Kossow will see this message and contact you. Curt Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello all, > > This may be somewhat off topic, but it certainly is a serious request. > > A little history first. > > About a year ago, I got a call from a company close where I live and asked > me if I was interested in some old DEC documentation. I collected about > an office cupboard full of usefull and less usefull material. > > Since July this year I work for them, and they now know me and what my > hobby is (PDP-11's). I just got a call from the head of the repair dept > (they repair a lot of weird things, including old DEC stuff). > Basically he told me that management is considering to get rid of most of > the older technical documentation archive. > > I have seen this archive, and it is about 100 meters of documentation, > not only DEC stuff, but also some Sun Microsystems, HP and Dell material. > Some of the manuals are available in several revisions, some not. > All in all about 40 office cupboards in total....... > > One of the options is just to get rid of it, but another option is more > favoured, which is to find a company or someone willing to scan it in. > There is a budget, and one very likely possibility is to make the scanned > material available for everyone except maybe those documents which are > still considered valuable by the respective owner of this docu. > > So, now I'm looking for leads to individuals or organisation who have > the capacity to scan this amount of material in and convert it into > PDF formatted documents. > > If you have any lead or info, please contact me off-list. > > Thanks, > > Ed > > > > > From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Nov 16 13:58:56 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:58:56 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: New acquisitions (PDP 11/40 DecDataSystem and 11/10) Message-ID: <23212608.1195243136511.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> This morning I moved some newly acquired PDP-11 items into my shop. Among the items were a beautiful PDP-11/40 DecDataSystem in a yellow / red color scheme along with a TU10, PC05, and RK05F, another standard PDP-11/40, a PDP-11/10 with a Laboratory Peripheral System, RX01, and TU60 DecCassette unit, and a pieces parts PDP-11/20. Also included in this shipment was an LA36 DecWriter II that has a phone handset modem unit. You can check out some pictures at: http://www.woffordwitch.com/PDP1140-DecDataSystem.asp http://www.woffordwitch.com/PDP1140-FourthOne.asp http://www.woffordwitch.com/PDP1110-2.asp http://www.woffordwitch.com/LPS-11.asp I have not done anything with these items besides move them into my shop. The 11/20 is in pieces in a box, and I have not evaluated the completeness of it yet. I did see the toggle switch front panel, but do not see the plexi that goes with it. I have the CPU box, but some boards are loose in another box. I need to take inventory to see exactly what I have. Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 14:05:59 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem In-Reply-To: <473CBC98.29171.1C489C26@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <874380.59617.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2007 at 16:01, Chris M wrote: > > > Be advised the Vic formats a DD disk to about > > 1.2megs, so it is a highly proprietary format. And > > even the DOS is customized for it's hardware. Good > > luck pal!! Heh heh. > > Well, it's best cloned by someone with a > Sirius/Victor. IIRC, the > drive is CLV and was pretty much sui generis. I've > got a Victor 9000 > boot disk that *maybe* could be cloned using the > Catweasel, but I've > never tried to do it. Do you have a Catweasel? Why not try it? Or else you or someone else should ship it to someone who has one. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 14:08:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:08:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <1195206241.6482.5.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <168142.34845.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 23:02 -0600, Jim Leonard > wrote: > > Alexis wrote: > > > There's a line of chip from Analog Devices, > AD273/AD274/AD275 and others, > > > which will convert from RGB to NTSC/PAL. It > gives composite and split video > > > outputs. They're in the US$5 range. Perhaps this > could be used with my > > > previous circuit that converts TTL to analogue? > > > > Possibly, but I'm still not sure that it would > handle the intensity bit > > of CGA (RGBI). > > We made a bodge cable for RGBI to analogue RGB. > It's just some > resistors, really. Not likely the intensity bit was handled then. Yes it's seemingly no problem to convert ttl levels to ntsc or whatever. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 16 14:22:23 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:22:23 -0700 Subject: dovebid: Onyx2 Reality Monster (Hazelwood, MO) Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 14:44:55 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:44:55 -0600 Subject: New acquisitions (PDP 11/40 DecDataSystem and 11/10) In-Reply-To: <23212608.1195243136511.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23212608.1195243136511.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730711161244h72ce6e89xd6351ee9dab3f09@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/07, Ashley Carder wrote: > This morning I moved some newly acquired PDP-11 > items into my shop. Among the items were a beautiful Now those are great-looking machines! I don't think anyone would dare to use bile-yellow metal panels these days, and what management-type would allow it in their datacenters? Black plastic means "business!" From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 16 14:55:44 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:55:44 -0600 Subject: Handling an documentation archive. In-Reply-To: <11772.88.211.153.27.1195242127.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <11772.88.211.153.27.1195242127.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071116145247.0523afe8@mail.threedee.com> At 01:42 PM 11/16/2007, you wrote: >So, now I'm looking for leads to individuals or organisation who have >the capacity to scan this amount of material in and convert it into >PDF formatted documents. This seems like a perennial topic, but the answers sometimes need refreshing. I know I feel weighed down by the tremendous amounts of paper around here. I saw a life-hacking article about a sheet-fed duplex scanner that was promoted as being a quick and easy way to scan both sides and convert to a PDF. I'm much more curious about methods for adding and searching metadata. Filenames aren't rich enough. - John From james at attfield.co.uk Fri Nov 16 16:38:20 2007 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:38:20 -0000 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... In-Reply-To: <200711161801.lAGI0oCn068022@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Message: 24 > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:57:12 -0500 > From: Allison > Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <0JRL00BZ4QQMNPW2 at vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > >Cromemco also had Z80s on their I/O processor boards, and when > the later 680x0 > >CPU boards dropped the Z80 you could still run your Z80 programs > on the I/O card. > > > >mike > > This is not uncommon. > > H89 had two, one for the terminal and the other was the processor for > the computer. > > My NS*Horizon had two when I added the Teletek HDC(hard disk) as that > has a local z80. When I added a smart FDC of my own design and later > smart printer spooler and other IO with local cpu the nuber fo cpus grew. > > The Compupro system can easily have three, ZPB, Their mux board and > any of the hard disk controllers. I have one that has 68000, 8085 and > Z80 (maincpu, mux and Disk3). > > It's something that isn't unusual as it would seem. > > Allison Absolutey. I have a couple of IOP cards here complete with Z-80, Z80-SIO and firmware - very nice cards. Further, way back in the early '80s the Comart Communicator had an intelligent FDC sporting a Z-80 - formatting was just a matter of setting up the command and executing asynchronously, the host CPU could then go off and do something else. This was way ahead of the common-or-garden FDC's of the time, even Cromemco's FDC's at the time. A much under-rated system... Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 16 14:30:19 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:30:19 -0800 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware References: <200711161856.SAA29722@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <473DFDDA.A0654351@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Still, at the rates they were sending data in those days, FSK > > > could have been as simple as a solenoid on a capacitor, tied to > > > the frequency reference. > > > > That was the normal way of doing things at that time. Some of us > > can still do it that way... > > Modem technology of the late 1930s and World War 2 era was far more > advanced that the simple trick described above. FSK and tone > modulation were both characterized by fairly complex equipments for > the time with active, tube circuitry. Many sets could also cram a few > telegraph or teleprinter channels onto one voice channel or pair of > wires. There are some technical details about the modems on a page that Chuck provided the link to in an earlier message: http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/cevent.htm under the heading "The radio transmissions". Extract: "These will be exactly as transmitted in WW II. Multi-tone modulation on the transmitted RF carrier. Two sets of tones were used, one representing a mark or 1 in the Baudot code, the other representing a space or 0 in the Baudot code. Three tones were used in each one and these tones were chosen to be not harmonically related. Their frequencies were 540 cps + n * 180 cps. Actual frequencies, Mark 900,1620,2340 Space 540,1260,1980. So what is required is a set of audio tone generators at the transmitting end and a set of selective tone filters at the receiving end." It doesn't say why there are 3 frequencies each for mark and space. I was wondering if it was manually selectable for reception conditions or something, but Will's mention of multiplexing mutiple channels seems more likely. The actual tube circuitry wouldn't be too complex. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 16 16:39:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:39:38 -0800 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... In-Reply-To: <01C8285D.5B117740@MSE_D03> References: <01C8285D.5B117740@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <473DABAA.11209.1FEE7A48@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2007 at 14:30, M H Stein wrote: > Well, I didn't say or imply that dual-CPUs like Cromemco's DPU and XPU or > intelligent I/O co-processors like their IOP and Octart were uncommon; in > fact I was just adding Cromemco to the list under discussion which ranged > from CDC big iron down to C-64s, and both C-64s and Cromemcos could > easily have 4 or 5 CPUs talking to each other one way or another. Consider, as a modern example, one of the newer Freescale offerings-- a 68K core and 5 I/O processors all wrapped up on a single microcontroller chip. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 16 16:41:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:41:57 -0800 Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem In-Reply-To: <874380.59617.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <473CBC98.29171.1C489C26@cclist.sydex.com>, <874380.59617.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473DAC35.25596.1FF09940@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2007 at 12:05, Chris M wrote: > Do you have a Catweasel? Why not try it? Or else you > or someone else should ship it to someone who has one. I have several. The problem is that I don't have a Victor 9000/Sirius box. So if I copy one, I have no independent way to determine if the copy is correct. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 17:10:39 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:10:39 -0500 Subject: BBC coverage: Colossus vs. Modern hardware In-Reply-To: <473DFDDA.A0654351@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200711161856.SAA29722@citadel.metropolis.local> <473DFDDA.A0654351@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > There are some technical details about the modems on a page that Chuck > provided the link to in an earlier message: > http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/cevent.htm > under the heading "The radio transmissions". I am looking for specific type and model numbers that the Germans used. Pictures would be nice of original equipment. -- WIll From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 16 17:50:18 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:50:18 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <1195206241.6482.5.camel@elric.inet> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> <473D247E.6060507@oldskool.org> <1195206241.6482.5.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <473E2CBA.4020800@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 23:02 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Alexis wrote: >>> There's a line of chip from Analog Devices, AD273/AD274/AD275 and others, >>> which will convert from RGB to NTSC/PAL. It gives composite and split video >>> outputs. They're in the US$5 range. Perhaps this could be used with my >>> previous circuit that converts TTL to analogue? >> Possibly, but I'm still not sure that it would handle the intensity bit >> of CGA (RGBI). > > We made a bodge cable for RGBI to analogue RGB. It's just some > resistors, really. What was the pinout/schematics of such a cable? How did you handle the intensity bit? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 18:40:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:40:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071116012950.GA5718@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 16, 7 01:29:50 am Message-ID: [CBM disk drives] > "Controller card" might not be the best term, but yes, there was a > one board inside with one or more 6502-family microprocessors > (depending on the drive model). Older, dual drives tended to have > a couple of processors (6504s were common) with a few K of shared > memory; newer drives tended towards one microprocessor (a full 6502 > was common), with a software scheme to simulate the multi-processor > model of the older drives. > > The older, dual drives also had one analog board for both drive > mechanisms. Newer drives had the analog circuitry on the mainboard > with the processor. I've never seen a 2031, but all the GPIB-interfaces double drives contain 2 processors I think. The 8050/8250 contain a pair of full 6502s, one to handle the disk data itself, the other the run the DOS and talk to the GPIB port. They communicate via shared memory, IIRC 4K of it (the unit uses the well-known trick that a 6502 only drives the address lines when the clock input is in one of its states, so by feeding inverse clocks to the 2 processors you can easily get them to interleave access to memory). The control processor ROM is in one of those 6530 RRIOT chips, which makes replaicng it a little problematic, although my 8250LP (half-height drives, plastic case) has a daughterboard in the 6530 socket containing, IIRC, a 6530, the ROM part of which is never addressed and a normal ROM chip, along with a very little glue logic. In all the GPIB dual drives that I've seen, therre is a separate 'analogue board' containing the motor control circuits, the read/write chain, etc. The serial-interfaced drives used in the C64 processor contain a single processor (6502 in all that I've seen) and have all the electronics (apart from the spindle motor control) on one PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 18:18:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:18:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, In-Reply-To: <774989.53171.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 15, 7 04:01:15 pm Message-ID: > Be advised the Vic formats a DD disk to about > 1.2megs, so it is a highly proprietary format. And The Sirius/Victor 9000 disk controller is _strange_. Not suprisingly, giving its origins, the data circuitry is very similar ot that in a Commodore 8050 or similar, it is, of course, a GCR encoded unit. The data rate is constant (unlike an 8050), but the spindle speed changes (I thrink there are 16 possible speeds), giving an apporxximation to CLV recording as the head moves to different tracks. There are more sectors packed onto the outer tracks than the inner ones. > even the DOS is customized for it's hardware. Good That is not suprising. About the only thing that's common between a Sirius and an IBM PC is the processor. IIRC, the Sirius could run (at least) MS-DOS, CP/M-86 and the UCSD P-system. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 18:48:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:48:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <1195206241.6482.5.camel@elric.inet> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Nov 16, 7 09:44:01 am Message-ID: > We made a bodge cable for RGBI to analogue RGB. It's just some > resistors, really. Unless you want to get the brown colour correct :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 18:26:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:26:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <1195175674.473ceefaa9dde@secure.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Nov 15, 7 05:14:34 pm Message-ID: > > the C= disk drives were pretty much all smart drives weren't they? the big dual > drive units had a controller card in them that was basically a small computer (IIRC) > > also Atari disk drives had a 650x IIRC in them as well as a disk controller chip > (once again IIRC.) > The Epson TF20 is a double 5.25" drive used with their early laptops (HX20, PX4, PX8, etc), it communicates with then over an RS232-level serial link at 38400 buad. The TF20's controller board is packed with chips. As well as the disk controller chip, there's a Z80A, 64K of DRAM (more than the host computer in some cases!), a boot ROM that is paged out after the drive unit has booted, and lots of glue logic. A daugterhboard contains a 7201 chip and the RS232 drivers/receivers. I am told it boots a modified CP/M from the disk in the A: drive at power-on. The drives themselves are somewhat interewting, being the Epson 1/3rd height units with a voice-coil head positioner. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 16 19:37:18 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:37:18 -0500 Subject: NorthStar disks Message-ID: <01C82890.A7AD1900@MSE_D03> 20 HS North Star disks in binder on eBay, item # 140179267172 (nothing to do with me) From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 16 19:42:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:42:47 +0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <20071116012950.GA5718@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20071117014247.GA17908@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 17, 2007 at 12:40:25AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > I've never seen a 2031, but all the GPIB-interfaces double drives contain > 2 processors I think. The 2031 is very much like a 1541, but with an IEEE-488 interface rather than C= IEC. > The 8050/8250 contain a pair of full 6502s, one to > handle the disk data itself, the other the run the DOS and talk to the > GPIB port. They communicate via shared memory, IIRC 4K of it (the unit > uses the well-known trick that a 6502 only drives the address lines when > the clock input is in one of its states, so by feeding inverse clocks to > the 2 processors you can easily get them to interleave access to memory). Prior to the 8050/8250, I think the arrangement was one 6502 to talk to the bus, and one 6504 to talk to the drives, but in other respects, the same. > The control processor ROM is in one of those 6530 RRIOT chips, which > makes replaicng it a little problematic... I have, I think, a full set of 2040 ROMs, including the right 6530, but most of my pre-8050 drives were originally 2040s that were later upgraded to the same ROMs as a 4040 (the only difference AFAIK is the label on the outside). > although my 8250LP (half-height > drives, plastic case) has a daughterboard in the 6530 socket containing, > IIRC, a 6530, the ROM part of which is never addressed and a normal ROM > chip, along with a very little glue logic. I have seen those daughterboards before. > In all the GPIB dual drives that I've seen, therre is a separate > 'analogue board' containing the motor control circuits, the read/write > chain, etc. Yes. > The serial-interfaced drives used in the C64 processor contain a single > processor (6502 in all that I've seen) and have all the electronics > (apart from the spindle motor control) on one PCB. Yes... serial-interfaced drives and the 2031. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Nov-2007 at 01:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.9 F (-40.5 C) Windchill -67.2 F (-55.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.1 kts Grid 97 Barometer 681.8 mb (10560 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 16 20:11:03 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:11:03 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: References: <1195206241.6482.5.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2007 4:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > We made a bodge cable for RGBI to analogue RGB. It's just some > > resistors, really. > > Unless you want to get the brown colour correct :-) I don't think I ever owned a CGA monitor that got brown correct. I'm just cheap that way. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 16 20:11:03 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:11:03 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: References: <1195206241.6482.5.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2007 4:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > We made a bodge cable for RGBI to analogue RGB. It's just some > > resistors, really. > > Unless you want to get the brown colour correct :-) I don't think I ever owned a CGA monitor that got brown correct. I'm just cheap that way. Eric From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Nov 16 20:52:42 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:52:42 -0800 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. Message-ID: <000601c828c4$f7144160$6601a8c0@downstairs2> I found an item based on a Commodore press release in Byte Magazine, February 1978, Page 190. This establishes the first shipment as mid October 1977. Commodore Ships First PET Computers (Photo of Chuck Peddle) The PET computer made its debut recently as the first 100 units were shipped to waiting customers in mid October 1977. Here Commodore Systems Division Director Chuck Peddle is pictured with the PETs undergoing final checkout. Shipments were made about six weeks later than expected, according to Peddle. The delay was due in part to time consuming quality control measures and the material flow problem in starting up the production lines. "In this business," Peddle argued, "six weeks is actually pretty good." Many of the first units were delivered to customers who intend to develop software for the PET. Commodore plans to create a publishing house for programs developed by users as well as employees. The company plans to increase production of the PET computers to several thousand per month by early 1978. The basic PET with 4 K memory is priced at $595, while the 8 K memory version is $795, from Commodore Business Machines Inc, 901 California Av, Palo Alto CA 94304, (415) 326-4000. You can find a scan of the item here: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/Feb1978/Byte_Feb_1978_pg190.jpg Michael Holley From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Nov 16 20:48:14 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:48:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Timex-Sinclair 1000 with chiclet keyboard Message-ID: I found the oddest thing over at my friend James' ACCRC (Alameda County Computer Resource Center) operation. Walking through his office I spotted a Timex-Sinclair 1000. But this was no ordinary TS1000. Instead of a membrane keyboard (i.e. the flat, plastic piece of shit) it had a chiclet keyboard (i.e. the rubberized, raised key type). I have never seen this before. It seems to be an aftermarket add-on. It has an adhesive on the bottom perimeter that sticks over the original membrane keyboard. On the bottom of each key are circular pads that press against the membrane key when the chiclet key is depressed. It's pretty damn cool. Has anyone else ever seen one of these before? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 16 20:54:51 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:54:51 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 53 Message-ID: <01C8289B.6C4BAD80@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:38:20 -0000 From: "Jim Attfield" Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... >Absolutey. I have a couple of IOP cards here complete with Z-80, Z80-SIO and >firmware - very nice cards. >Jim -------- And 16K of RAM; also, that firmware is actually a monitor program which you can access from either side (you can use a terminal on the 'output' side or use the IOPEX program to turn the main computer into a "terminal" talking to the monitor over the S100 bus), and play around in the IOP's memory etc.) Essentially a small SBC in its own right. m From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 16 21:11:43 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:11:43 -0800 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... In-Reply-To: <01C8285D.5B117740@MSE_D03> References: <01C8285D.5B117740@MSE_D03> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > > This is not uncommon. > > H89 had two, one for the terminal and the other was the processor for > the computer. > > My NS*Horizon had two when I added the Teletek HDC(hard disk) as that > has a local z80. When I added a smart FDC of my own design and later > smart printer spooler and other IO with local cpu the nuber fo cpus grew. > > The Compupro system can easily have three, ZPB, Their mux board and > any of the hard disk controllers. I have one that has 68000, 8085 and > Z80 (maincpu, mux and Disk3). > > It's something that isn't unusual as it would seem. > > Hi The polymorphic 8813 had two processors when it used the double density disk. The main processor was still the 8080 while the controller was run by Z80. To make it more interresting, the double densities disk were still hard sectored! Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Boo!?Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 21:17:31 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:17:31 -0500 Subject: Timex-Sinclair 1000 with chiclet keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Has anyone else ever seen one of these before? I remember seeing an ad for one, back in the past. -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 16 21:20:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:20:22 -0500 Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors In-Reply-To: <473C8642.7030501@yahoo.co.uk> References: <653a64ac0711150740j207ce277w8fba1bc7c1a0e860@mail.gmail.com> <473C8642.7030501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200711162220.22481.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 November 2007 12:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > Mark Meiss wrote: > > It arrived last night, and it's a great little monitor, in even better > > shape than the one I already had. To my surprise, though, it's also > > completely different. The case is different, the form factor and > > positioning of the controls are different -- and, most relevantly, > > even the connectors are different. My older one (made in 1989) has a > > DB-9 input for RGBI input. The new arrival (made in 1988, if I recall > > correctly) has an 8-pin DIN input for RGBI input. > > In the UK, I think the Amiga monitors were usually rebranded Philips > displays - the same as could be had for numerous other systems of the time. > Acorn also used the same Philips units - branded for their own purposes - > and they certainly existed in both 8-pin DIN and DE-9 configuration. > > Furthermore, I've seen them both with and without speakers, with and > without separate audio inputs at the back, with and without direct RGB via > SCART sockets (not relevant outside Europe :-) and with and without the > ability to accept CVBS video. I remember seeing some similar models (both 1084 _and_ 1802?) that appeared to be almost the same inside, the differences being some of the stuff you mention here. And indeed, even if the connectors weren't there the board had a place for them, and the plastic rear cabinet half had a place where an opening could be made by popping a bit of plastic out, and so forth. There were also some electronic components missing, so one would need the proper values to fill those in, but it was do-able if one had the service data for the different models. > It may well be that Philips worked with someone else on the underlying > displays for markets outside Europe - I didn't think Philips had much of a > presence in such as the US? Or it might be that different markets got > different displays - i.e. the UK idea of '1084' is totally different to a > US one with the same model number (now that would be confusing :-) I remember getting to the Trenton ham/computer fest one time, and when we arrived there were people carting monitors out their vehicles -- in boxes that were marked Philips. And at that point in time I'd never heard of them nor seen one. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Nov 16 21:23:09 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:23:09 -0800 Subject: dying DSHD 3.5" floppies Message-ID: <67a0003b75c9e8d07bebce1dada56ec6@valleyimplants.com> Whilst going through my box to separate the wheat from the chaff in the 3.5" DSHD diskette department I remembered a tip from ages ago, and durned if it didn't work. Shake the diskette and put it back in the drive. Sounds silly, but it does work sometimes. From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 16 21:56:02 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:56:02 -0500 Subject: Handling an documentation archive. In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071116145247.0523afe8@mail.threedee.com> References: <11772.88.211.153.27.1195242127.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <6.2.3.4.2.20071116145247.0523afe8@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <200711162256.02368.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 16 November 2007 15:55, John Foust wrote: > At 01:42 PM 11/16/2007, you wrote: > >So, now I'm looking for leads to individuals or organisation who have > >the capacity to scan this amount of material in and convert it into > >PDF formatted documents. > > This seems like a perennial topic, but the answers sometimes need > refreshing. I know I feel weighed down by the tremendous amounts > of paper around here. I saw a life-hacking article about a > sheet-fed duplex scanner that was promoted as being a quick and > easy way to scan both sides and convert to a PDF. I'm much more > curious about methods for adding and searching metadata. > Filenames aren't rich enough. Darn right they aren't... I've always had a weakness for some types of "file managers" -- started with NSWEEP under CP/M, then went for a while with something calling itself QDOS (only it wasn't) under DOS, but that had a weird problem if you had a lot of files in a given directory -- beyond about 6-700 or so it just wouldn't show them all. I finally ended up with InspectA, which allowed you to type in a "description" for any file on the system. Finding a "files.bbs" file in there it'd use the contents of that, which was handy. Under linux I'm currently using mc, which lacks this feature, though having long filenames helps some. It's really not quite enough though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 16 22:02:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:02:22 -0800 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. In-Reply-To: <000601c828c4$f7144160$6601a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000601c828c4$f7144160$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2007 at 18:52, Michael Holley wrote: > I found an item based on a Commodore press release in Byte Magazine, > February 1978, Page 190. This establishes the first shipment as mid October > 1977. Does anyone collect Commodore wristwatches? Do any working ones survive? Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Fri Nov 16 22:08:47 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:08:47 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. In-Reply-To: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I actually have one -- an LCD one. Bought it on eBay a few years ago. I don't think it works now, but the battery just needs replacing. On 11/16/07 11:02 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 16 Nov 2007 at 18:52, Michael Holley wrote: > >> I found an item based on a Commodore press release in Byte Magazine, >> February 1978, Page 190. This establishes the first shipment as mid October >> 1977. > > Does anyone collect Commodore wristwatches? Do any working ones > survive? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 16 22:32:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:32:47 -0800 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. In-Reply-To: References: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <473DFE6F.10071.2131C925@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2007 at 23:08, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I actually have one -- an LCD one. Bought it on eBay a few years ago. I > don't think it works now, but the battery just needs replacing. I was wondering about the 5-function LED version that went for less than $20. I've still got a National Semiconductor LCD watch, but the guts are rotted out from perspiration leaking into the case. On the other hand, the Seiko self-winder I purchased the year before still works just fine. I sometimes wonder if we'll have any operating 30-year old cell phones? Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 16 22:49:09 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:49:09 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. References: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com>, <473DFE6F.10071.2131C925@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00ea01c828d5$31409400$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 11:32 PM Subject: Re: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. > On 16 Nov 2007 at 23:08, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > I actually have one -- an LCD one. Bought it on eBay a few years ago. I > > don't think it works now, but the battery just needs replacing. > > I was wondering about the 5-function LED version that went for less > than $20. > > I've still got a National Semiconductor LCD watch, but the guts are > rotted out from perspiration leaking into the case. On the other > hand, the Seiko self-winder I purchased the year before still works > just fine. > > I sometimes wonder if we'll have any operating 30-year old cell > phones? > > Cheers, > Chuck Considering the original cell phones worked on analog signal and the analog service will be gone very soon I guess not. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 16 22:53:53 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:53:53 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. In-Reply-To: <473DFE6F.10071.2131C925@cclist.sydex.com> References: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com>, <473DFE6F.10071.2131C925@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473E73E1.2090605@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I sometimes wonder if we'll have any operating 30-year old cell > phones? I wonder if you need a decimal point between the 3 and the 0? > Cheers, > Chuck > > > . > From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 23:26:10 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:26:10 +1100 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. References: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com>, <473DFE6F.10071.2131C925@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <056c01c828da$5e818ff0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. > I sometimes wonder if we'll have any operating 30-year old cell > phones? What point will there be ? Analogue mobiles no longer work anyway - no network to support 'em! Lance // http://www.commodore128.org // From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 16 23:33:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:33:34 -0700 Subject: modern relay computer In-Reply-To: <473E73E1.2090605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com>, <473DFE6F.10071.2131C925@cclist.sydex.com> <473E73E1.2090605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <473E7D2E.7020901@jetnet.ab.ca> A few links here on modern (working) relay computers and ALU's. http://www.electronixandmore.com/project/index.html Ben alias woodelf From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Nov 17 00:35:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:35:59 -0600 Subject: Handling an documentation archive. In-Reply-To: <200711162256.02368.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <11772.88.211.153.27.1195242127.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <6.2.3.4.2.20071116145247.0523afe8@mail.threedee.com> <200711162256.02368.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <473E8BCF.8070002@oldskool.org> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've always had a weakness for some types of "file managers" -- started with > NSWEEP under CP/M, then went for a while with something calling itself QDOS > (only it wasn't) under DOS, but that had a weird problem if you had a lot of > files in a given directory -- beyond about 6-700 or so it just wouldn't show > them all. I finally ended up with InspectA, which allowed you to type in > a "description" for any file on the system. Finding a "files.bbs" file in > there it'd use the contents of that, which was handy. Under linux I'm > currently using mc, which lacks this feature, though having long filenames > helps some. It's really not quite enough though. Ever used Lotus Magellan? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Nov 17 04:22:46 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:22:46 +0000 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473E2CBA.4020800@oldskool.org> References: <472EF48B.7050000@yahoo.co.uk> <472FA9A4.5080004@oldskool.org> <473D247E.6060507@oldskool.org> <1195206241.6482.5.camel@elric.inet> <473E2CBA.4020800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1195294966.6469.6.camel@elric.inet> On Fri, 2007-11-16 at 17:50 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 23:02 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Alexis wrote: > >>> There's a line of chip from Analog Devices, AD273/AD274/AD275 and others, > >>> which will convert from RGB to NTSC/PAL. It gives composite and split video > >>> outputs. They're in the US$5 range. Perhaps this could be used with my > >>> previous circuit that converts TTL to analogue? > >> Possibly, but I'm still not sure that it would handle the intensity bit > >> of CGA (RGBI). > > > > We made a bodge cable for RGBI to analogue RGB. It's just some > > resistors, really. > > What was the pinout/schematics of such a cable? How did you handle the > intensity bit? >From memory, and it was a while ago, we had three voltage dividers to knock the TTL outputs down to .7v, and then three more resistors from the intensity bit to the analogue outputs. There may have been some diodes there. The sync combiner was a couple of resistors and a transistor. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 16 15:40:46 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:40:46 -0500 Subject: Speaking of multiple processors... Message-ID: <0JRM007BIC78PCFA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... > From: M H Stein > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:30:25 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >---------Original Messages: >Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:57:12 -0500 >From: Allison >Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... > >> From: M H Stein >> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:29:05 -0500 > >>Cromemco also had Z80s on their I/O processor boards, and when the later 680x0 >>CPU boards dropped the Z80 you could still run your Z80 programs on the I/O card. >> >>mike > >This is not uncommon. > >H89 had two, one for the terminal and the other was the processor for >the computer. > >My NS*Horizon had two when I added the Teletek HDC(hard disk) as that >has a local z80. When I added a smart FDC of my own design and later >smart printer spooler and other IO with local cpu the nuber fo cpus grew. > >The Compupro system can easily have three, ZPB, Their mux board and >any of the hard disk controllers. I have one that has 68000, 8085 and >Z80 (maincpu, mux and Disk3). > >It's something that isn't unusual as it would seem. > >Allison > >----------Reply: >Well, I didn't say or imply that dual-CPUs like Cromemco's DPU and XPU or >intelligent I/O co-processors like their IOP and Octart were uncommon; in >fact I was just adding Cromemco to the list under discussion which ranged >from CDC big iron down to C-64s, and both C-64s and Cromemcos could >easily have 4 or 5 CPUs talking to each other one way or another. They were not alone doing that. >But now that you mention it, I did think what Cromemco did when their XXU >68010/20 CPU board finally dropped the Z80 _was_ a little unusual; although >the Z80 was gone from the processor board, your Z-80 CDOS or CP/M >application could still use the Z80 on the existing I/O board when it wasn't >handling I/O traffic. Did anyone else run *application* programs like a word >processor or spreadsheet (as opposed to applications like the C-64's disk >utilities) on an I/O co-processor board? I guess it could. Never messed with Cromemco but they had nice hardware. >And that's not quite the same either as e.g. an Apple or the SuperPet, which >effectively just used the main system as console and memory for an *added* >co-processor. > >Admittedly, at some point the distinctions do get a little blurred. Way fuzzy. Allison >m From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Nov 17 08:09:01 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:09:01 -0500 Subject: Timex-Sinclair 1000 with chiclet keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16C437F6-9606-4508-B95A-267AFC6E5DE0@colourfull.com> Yes. I have one in my Timex Collection. On Nov 16, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I found the oddest thing over at my friend James' ACCRC (Alameda > County > Computer Resource Center) operation. > > Walking through his office I spotted a Timex-Sinclair 1000. But > this was > no ordinary TS1000. Instead of a membrane keyboard (i.e. the flat, > plastic piece of shit) it had a chiclet keyboard (i.e. the rubberized, > raised key type). I have never seen this before. > > It seems to be an aftermarket add-on. It has an adhesive on the > bottom > perimeter that sticks over the original membrane keyboard. On the > bottom > of each key are circular pads that press against the membrane key > when the > chiclet key is depressed. It's pretty damn cool. > > Has anyone else ever seen one of these before? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 09:28:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:28:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil DevelopmentSystem In-Reply-To: <473DAC35.25596.1FF09940@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <530193.51351.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Oi you could mail it to someone --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Nov 2007 at 12:05, Chris M wrote: > > > Do you have a Catweasel? Why not try it? Or else > you > > or someone else should ship it to someone who has > one. > > I have several. The problem is that I don't have a > Victor > 9000/Sirius box. So if I copy one, I have no > independent way to > determine if the copy is correct. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 09:30:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:30:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Barn" finds - Victor 9000, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <423721.21433.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, the Sirius could run (at least) MS-DOS, > CP/M-86 and the UCSD P-system. Likely. And IINM there was a mention of a UNIX variant available for it. I also saw something, maybe an advert to that effect also. Could be that it was vaporware though... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 09:33:10 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:33:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <833446.92273.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Nov 16, 2007 4:48 PM, Tony Duell > wrote: > > > We made a bodge cable for RGBI to analogue RGB. > It's just some > > > resistors, really. > > > > Unless you want to get the brown colour correct > :-) > > I don't think I ever owned a CGA monitor that got > brown correct. I was going to say isn't that largely dependent on the monitor used? A non-issue w/a newer analogue monitor, that is if the voltage was correct. But you could always vary the resistance on that particular line, no? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 09:35:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:35:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <1195294966.6469.6.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <146662.52241.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > What was the pinout/schematics of such a cable? > How did you handle the > > intensity bit? > > >From memory, and it was a while ago, we had three > voltage dividers to > knock the TTL outputs down to .7v, and then three > more resistors from > the intensity bit to the analogue outputs. > > There may have been some diodes there. > > The sync combiner was a couple of resistors and a > transistor. I used to combine h and v syncs to green with only a resistor (somewhat but not entirely related I guess). Don't ask me what the value was though. As I recall it wasn't terribly crucial though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 09:37:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:37:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: more OT sorry: anyone own a Stylistic 1000? Message-ID: <616604.54914.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> e-mail me thanks ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 10:22:57 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:22:57 -0500 Subject: Timex-Sinclair 1000 with chiclet keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <651ad3696a1572a76c3c4274dbdeba54@neurotica.com> On Nov 16, 2007, at 10:17 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Has anyone else ever seen one of these before? > > I remember seeing an ad for one, back in the past. Yep, I remember those too. I had a TS1000 when they were current, and I remember having seen various keyboard modifications advertised in that magazine (it was called "Sync" or something like that?)...some of them were full chassis replacements, which is what this one seems to be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Nov 17 10:45:02 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:45:02 +0000 Subject: Timex-Sinclair 1000 with chiclet keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17/11/07 02:48, "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > > I found the oddest thing over at my friend James' ACCRC (Alameda County > Computer Resource Center) operation. > > Walking through his office I spotted a Timex-Sinclair 1000. But this was > no ordinary TS1000. Instead of a membrane keyboard (i.e. the flat, > plastic piece of shit) it had a chiclet keyboard (i.e. the rubberized, > raised key type). I have never seen this before. > > It seems to be an aftermarket add-on. It has an adhesive on the bottom > perimeter that sticks over the original membrane keyboard. On the bottom > of each key are circular pads that press against the membrane key when the > chiclet key is depressed. It's pretty damn cool. > > Has anyone else ever seen one of these before? It sounds like the Filesixty keyboard that was available for the ZX81 in the UK. Are the number keys a tasteful shade of blue? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Nov 17 10:47:54 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:47:54 +0000 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. In-Reply-To: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 17/11/07 04:02, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 16 Nov 2007 at 18:52, Michael Holley wrote: > >> I found an item based on a Commodore press release in Byte Magazine, >> February 1978, Page 190. This establishes the first shipment as mid October >> 1977. > > Does anyone collect Commodore wristwatches? Do any working ones > survive? I had one that was NOS until it died on me late last year with a typical LED watch death of 'permanent-stuck-on-digit'. No point in even attempting to fix it, though if I replaced it with another one you could say I was collecting them.... "It's always Commodore Time!" -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 17 11:01:25 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:01:25 -0600 Subject: Handling an documentation archive. In-Reply-To: <200711162256.02368.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <11772.88.211.153.27.1195242127.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <6.2.3.4.2.20071116145247.0523afe8@mail.threedee.com> <200711162256.02368.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071117104752.05277ef0@mail.threedee.com> At 09:56 PM 11/16/2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Finding a "files.bbs" file in >there it'd use the contents of that, which was handy. Under linux I'm >currently using mc, which lacks this feature, though having long filenames >helps some. It's really not quite enough though. I'm not talking about a visual shell. I'll phrase my example in classic computer terms. Let's say I have a 3-ring binder of stuff from a particular moment in Amiga development history. It's rare or unusual; some ex-Amiga employee gave it to me. There's prelim printed docs, there's a schematic or two, there's hand-written notes, there's sales literature. I don't need to keep it - toss it on eBay to spread it to the world - but a PDF digital copy would be great. I'd rather give it all to someone else. Some of it, like the printed docs, makes sense to stuff into a single PDF. Others might get grouped differently. Some of it is OCR-able, some not. Ideally, all the PDFs are grouped or tagged so I know they're "together". And they're all in a database, along with all the other bundles, so I can find them again. The category of "document management system" exists. What are the classic computer museums / warehouses using? You're right, though. There are even sub-$100 visual shell / replacements for Windows Explorer that handle some parts of the task, like PageManager, an app that comes bundled with some scanners. It'll scan and drop all the documents into a single folder, and let you browse folders. There's mid-range ones like Cabinet Pro that come with higher-end copiers. - John From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 12:40:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:40:39 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <833446.92273.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <833446.92273.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473EC527.22159.243A0777@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2007 at 7:33, Chris M wrote: > I was going to say isn't that largely dependent on > the monitor used? A non-issue w/a newer analogue > monitor, that is if the voltage was correct. But you > could always vary the resistance on that particular > line, no? We've been here before. The IBM color display as well as the EGA version contains a PROM to correct the "dark yellow" color to brown. It was duplicated on few, if any third-party units. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 12:46:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:46:05 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <1195294966.6469.6.camel@elric.inet> References: , <473E2CBA.4020800@oldskool.org>, <1195294966.6469.6.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <473EC66D.21332.243F00DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2007 at 10:22, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >From memory, and it was a while ago, we had three voltage dividers to > knock the TTL outputs down to .7v, and then three more resistors from > the intensity bit to the analogue outputs. > > There may have been some diodes there. > > The sync combiner was a couple of resistors and a transistor. It can also be done with a 74LS06 OC inverter and a few resistors. A fancy version might use a '221 one shot to adjust sync pulse position and width. I think the one I used to drive an RGB monitor with SOG from a VGA output used a 74HC86 XOR and was self-powered. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 13:26:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:26:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473EC527.22159.243A0777@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <924418.58490.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Nov 2007 at 7:33, Chris M wrote: > > > I was going to say isn't that largely dependent > on > > the monitor used? A non-issue w/a newer analogue > > monitor, that is if the voltage was correct. But > you > > could always vary the resistance on that > particular > > line, no? > > We've been here before. The IBM color display as > well as the EGA > version contains a PROM to correct the "dark yellow" > color to brown. > It was duplicated on few, if any third-party units. I know. I was there. It was just after I joined the list. And it was I, even I, who pointed out that there was a game written by Bill Gates w/a big brown donkey, putting to rest the doubts of the naysayers. Off the top of my head, I don't know, or rather can't see what a prom had to do with it. If a monitor's phosphors were capable of producing brown (presumably all were) and the unit is *tuned* to take a *brown* signal and display brown, you'd have brown. But I guess I'll have to look over those posts (~2.5 years ago IIRC). Yeah I guess the original IBM 5153 display stood out in at least that respect. But it was pretty unspectacular in other respects. The colors were *deep* enough, which usually depended on the *darkness* of the tube. But the dot pitch wasn't anything particularly unusual. I have a nice one in my attic. Got to dig it out this week when I have a few days to play... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 13:28:14 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:28:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473EC66D.21332.243F00DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <761183.58233.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Nov 2007 at 10:22, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > >From memory, and it was a while ago, we had three > voltage dividers to > > knock the TTL outputs down to .7v, and then three > more resistors from > > the intensity bit to the analogue outputs. > > > > There may have been some diodes there. > > > > The sync combiner was a couple of resistors and a > transistor. > > It can also be done with a 74LS06 OC inverter and a > few resistors. A > fancy version might use a '221 one shot to adjust > sync pulse position > and width. I think the one I used to drive an RGB > monitor with SOG > from a VGA output used a 74HC86 XOR and was > self-powered. what would be nice if there was an area for the group to act as a *scratch pad*. So some of this stuff could go down *on paper*. Thoughts?... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Nov 17 13:41:15 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:41:15 -0500 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <471398AB.26707.A24B293@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at Oct 15, 7 05:18:43 pm, <471398AB.26707.A24B293@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473F43DB.1020708@hawkmountain.net> OK... so I took it apart... There are 3 boards... all made by TEC CPU Board: CPU.KEY.RAMI/F HEIID 028930 ASSY NO.HE82D054701 Display Interface Board: DISPLAY I/F HEIID 029340 ASSY NO.HE82D054801 FDC Board: FDC CNT HEIID 029040 ASSY NO.HE82D054901 The edge connectors have 59 pins on each side. There is a slit (key) between pins 6 and 7 .... not sure if this matches any 'standard' bus. This is probably all custom stuff... but hoping (probably in vain), that maybe this thing is simply built from 'standard' parts... and can run something else (CPM ? etc) I have some pictures... but I haven't gotten them uploaded anywhere yet. The 2 floppy drives are 5.25" FH (like IBM PC/XT) Qume Qumetrak 542 drives (belt drive of course). So looks like 300RPM 360K drives. Not sure of belt health (the look OK... but not sure how much tension they should have). These floppy drives good models ? Suppose you could use them in a PC/XT restoration (minus the fact they wouldn't be Tandons or have IBM P/Ns). -- Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > Search the web for "Lexitron" and I think you'll find something very > similar. It's a word processor--the keyboard is probably lost. > After 1977, Raytheon owned Lexitron. All of their WaPro equipment > (even the printers) started off with VT... > > Here's a photo of a VT1303--note the switches on the front panel: > > http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Lexitron-VT1303.jpg > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Nov 17 13:57:14 2007 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:57:14 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC Message-ID: <12834481.1195329434946.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Princeton Graphics did a true brown in their cga and ega monitors... at least the ones I owned. >We've been here before. The IBM color display as well as the EGA >version contains a PROM to correct the "dark yellow" color to brown. >It was duplicated on few, if any third-party units. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 14:31:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:31:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <12834481.1195329434946.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <499105.21421.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Thatcher wrote: > Princeton Graphics did a true brown in their cga and > ega monitors... at least the ones I owned. > > >We've been here before. The IBM color display as > well as the EGA > >version contains a PROM to correct the "dark > yellow" color to brown. > >It was duplicated on few, if any third-party units. Princetons were also externally identical to IBM's (case wise). They offered a good value. They also made a scan converter for using CGA cards with their 400 line monitor. They also had an analog monitor for use with the IBM PGA card (probably VGA too). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 17 14:40:03 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:40:03 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473F43DB.1020708@hawkmountain.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net> from <473F43DB.1020708@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: > From: rescue at hawkmountain.net > > > > OK... so I took it apart... > > There are 3 boards... all made by TEC > > CPU Board: > > CPU.KEY.RAMI/F > HEIID 028930 > ASSY NO.HE82D054701 > It doesn't sound like anything I recognize. Still, look at the RAM. If it has at least 32K, CP/M is possible. See what type of keyboard interface it has on it. If parallel, it should be relatively easy to get it going. Serial would be more difficult. > Display Interface Board: > > DISPLAY I/F > HEIID 029340 > ASSY NO.HE82D054801 > > FDC Board: > > FDC CNT > HEIID 029040 > ASSY NO.HE82D054901 > > The edge connectors have 59 pins on each side. There is a slit (key) > between > pins 6 and 7 .... not sure if this matches any 'standard' bus. > > This is probably all custom stuff... but hoping (probably in vain), that > maybe this > thing is simply built from 'standard' parts... and can run something > else (CPM ? etc) > > I have some pictures... but I haven't gotten them uploaded anywhere yet. > > The 2 floppy drives are 5.25" FH (like IBM PC/XT) Qume Qumetrak 542 drives > (belt drive of course). So looks like 300RPM 360K drives. Not sure of belt > health (the look OK... but not sure how much tension they should have). > These > floppy drives good models ? Suppose you could use them in a PC/XT > restoration > (minus the fact they wouldn't be Tandons or have IBM P/Ns). Even if you don't get something to just plug into it, it would still be a fun project to get something running on it. Look at the components used on the various boards, it will give you clues on how things work. I wouldn't split it up if not needed. For the belts, try holding the hub of flywheel and turn the motor shaft. If it turns easily without transfering torque to the hub, then it will need to be tightened. Usually the motor has some play in the mount but if needed one can use a small rat tail file to elongate the mounting holes. More important is to make sure there is no gunk or lumpy oxide on the flywheel. If so, smooth this down or it will cause erratic disk writes and reads. The motor pully should be smooth as well but I've found it not as critical as the flywheel surface. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Nov 17 14:55:10 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:55:10 -0500 Subject: Timex-Sinclair 1000 with chicklet keyboard In-Reply-To: <200711171801.lAHI0tAF081114@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20071117154451.02c0ee48@mail.degnanco.net> >Message: 8 >Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:48:14 -0800 (PST) >From: Sellam Ismail >Subject: Timex-Sinclair 1000 with chiclet keyboard >To: Classic Computers Mailing List > > >I found the oddest thing over at my friend James' ACCRC (Alameda County >Computer Resource Center) operation. > >Walking through his office I spotted a Timex-Sinclair 1000. But this was >no ordinary TS1000. Instead of a membrane keyboard (i.e. the flat, >plastic piece of shit) it had a chiclet keyboard (i.e. the rubberized, >raised key type). I have never seen this before. > >It seems to be an aftermarket add-on. It has an adhesive on the bottom >perimeter that sticks over the original membrane keyboard. On the bottom >of each key are circular pads that press against the membrane key when the >chiclet key is depressed. It's pretty damn cool. > >Has anyone else ever seen one of these before? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Suntronics had a kit for a keyboard and chassis cover that fit over the original unit: http://vintagecomputer.net/sinclair/suntronics_sinclair1000_kit.jpg In addition to Suntronics Co. here is a list of other manufacturers that I know of who made add on keyboards, but some of these you also had to buy an upgraded motherboard kit: Kayde Dk'Tronics Haven Hardware Memotech Microcomputers Plus, Inc The Full Spectrum Synergistic Design Fuller Gladstone E-Z Key Research Applications Prod. -Bill Degnan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 15:25:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:25:30 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473F43DB.1020708@hawkmountain.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <471398AB.26707.A24B293@cclist.sydex.com>, <473F43DB.1020708@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <473EEBCA.4236.24D0F229@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2007 at 14:41, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > The edge connectors have 59 pins on each side. There is a slit (key) > between pins 6 and 7 .... not sure if this matches any 'standard' bus. Nothing that I've ever seen. > This is probably all custom stuff... but hoping (probably in vain), that > maybe this thing is simply built from 'standard' parts... and can run something > else (CPM ? etc) > > I have some pictures... but I haven't gotten them uploaded anywhere yet. > > The 2 floppy drives are 5.25" FH (like IBM PC/XT) Qume Qumetrak 542 drives > (belt drive of course). So looks like 300RPM 360K drives. Not sure of belt > health (the look OK... but not sure how much tension they should have). > These floppy drives good models ? Suppose you could use them in a PC/XT > restoration (minus the fact they wouldn't be Tandons or have IBM P/Ns). Not bad, not wonderful on the broad spectrum of 5.25" DD FH drives. As far as the belts go, if they seem to turn the disk okay without slipping or noise, then you're fine. It all depends on the ozone situation in your area. Perhaps this could be adapted to run CP/M, but I wonder if you won't run into any ROM mapping that would prevent it. Remember that the Wapo makers had full control over their hardware configuration. I suspect the daisywheel that inevitably comes with these things is probably a Diablo or a Qume model. Do you see some familiar part numbers on the larger chips? Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Nov 17 15:38:48 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:38:48 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. Message-ID: <01C82938.73B1D200@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:32:47 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. >I've still got a National Semiconductor LCD watch, but the guts are >rotted out from perspiration leaking into the case. On the other >hand, the Seiko self-winder I purchased the year before still works >just fine. You do mean L*C*D, right? Too bad, I've still got some National L*E*D watch modules somewhere. >I sometimes wonder if we'll have any operating 30-year old cell >phones? >Cheers, >Chuck Last time I looked, people were still buying & selling analog phones, so I suspect that in some parts of the world analog may be around for a while yet; wanna buy a dozen or so, cheap? Have I got a deal for you... I've got an old Motorola mobile phone that sits in the trunk, nice Contempra (?) handset with a number display; does that count? m From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 15:53:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:53:55 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <924418.58490.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <473EC527.22159.243A0777@cclist.sydex.com>, <924418.58490.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473EF273.13760.24EAF76B@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2007 at 11:26, Chris M wrote: > Off the top of my head, I don't know, or rather can't > see what a prom had to do with it. If a monitor's > phosphors were capable of producing brown (presumably > all were) and the unit is *tuned* to take a *brown* > signal and display brown, you'd have brown. But I > guess I'll have to look over those posts (~2.5 years > ago IIRC). The EGA had the prom; without consulting my O&A for the CGA version, it might have been some TTL logic rather than a ROM. The situation goes this way. If rgb are "normal level" red, green and blue signals and RGB is "intensified", dark yellow is r+g; brown is r+1/2g and bright yellow is RG. To get brown, you need logic in the monitor to drop the green level to one-half "normal" brightness only when the brown combination is detected. Otheriwse, if you simply tune down the green level by half for all colors, everything suffers. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 16:06:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:06:40 -0800 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. In-Reply-To: <01C82938.73B1D200@MSE_D03> References: <01C82938.73B1D200@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <473EF570.12764.24F6A453@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2007 at 16:38, M H Stein wrote: >> You do mean L*C*D, right? Too bad, I've still got some National L*E*D > watch modules somewhere. Yes, Liquid Crystal. I picked it up at the same time I bought a NS "Pong" game for a friend's kids. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 17 15:59:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:59:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071117014247.GA17908@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 17, 7 01:42:47 am Message-ID: > > On Sat, Nov 17, 2007 at 12:40:25AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've never seen a 2031, but all the GPIB-interfaces double drives contain > > 2 processors I think. > > The 2031 is very much like a 1541, but with an IEEE-488 interface rather > than C= IEC. Interesting. As I said, I've never seen one, in fact the only CBM GPIB drives I've been inside are the 8050 and 8250LP. > Prior to the 8050/8250, I think the arrangement was one 6502 to talk to > the bus, and one 6504 to talk to the drives, but in other respects, the > same. I wonder why they changed? I've not got the data book in front of me, what was the address space of the 6504? The 8050 needs 8K, I think (4K shared RAM + ROM + I/O devices). Did the earlier drives have less shared RAM or something? > > > The control processor ROM is in one of those 6530 RRIOT chips, which > > makes replaicng it a little problematic... > > I have, I think, a full set of 2040 ROMs, including the right 6530, but > most of my pre-8050 drives were originally 2040s that were later upgraded > to the same ROMs as a 4040 (the only difference AFAIK is the label on the > outside). I seem to remember the 2040, 3040 and 4040 were all similar. One of the upgrades was just a ROM swap, but I thought the other upgrade involved rather more. But as I said I never used said units. As an aside, IMHO one of the worst mistakes commodore made was that the 8050 could not at least read the disks of the earlier drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 17 16:12:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:12:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <833446.92273.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 17, 7 07:33:10 am Message-ID: > > I don't think I ever owned a CGA monitor that got > > brown correct. > > I was going to say isn't that largely dependent on > the monitor used? A non-issue w/a newer analogue > monitor, that is if the voltage was correct. But you > could always vary the resistance on that particular > line, no? The point is (and we had a thread on this some time back), the colour mixing _seems_ obvious -- R,G,B turn on their respective electron guns and I turns on all guns a little bit. But if you have a real 5153 CGA monitor, or most EGA monitors in CGA mode (the 5154 is certainly like this), it gets a little more compiclated. Colour 6 (Brown), corresponding to R and G both asserted, is detected by circuitry in the monitor, and you get less green than you'd expect (the green gun is not driven so hard), giving brown rather than dark yellow. A simple resistor/diode circuit won't do this. You might not care (you will get viewable colours without it), but if you want to do things perfectly, you need to be aware of this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 17 16:16:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:16:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473EC527.22159.243A0777@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 17, 7 10:40:39 am Message-ID: > We've been here before. The IBM color display as well as the EGA > version contains a PROM to correct the "dark yellow" color to brown. Minor correction. While the 5154 EGA monitor uses a PROM for this, the 5153 CGA monitor does it all in simple TTL chips (including wire-ANDed open-collector stuff) > It was duplicated on few, if any third-party units. Perhaops I only deal with the better units, but the Philips service manual I've just looked at gets it right, and the very nice Trinitron TTL/analogue monitor that I use with Beebs and Torch XXXes has the circuitry too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 17 16:59:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:59:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Timex-Sinclair 1000 with chicklet keyboard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20071117154451.02c0ee48@mail.degnanco.net> from "B. Degnan" at Nov 17, 7 03:55:10 pm Message-ID: > In addition to Suntronics Co. here is a list of other manufacturers that I > know of who made add on keyboards, but some of these you also had to buy an > upgraded motherboard kit: > Kayde > Dk'Tronics > Haven Hardware > Memotech > Microcomputers Plus, Inc > The Full Spectrum > Synergistic Design > Fuller > Gladstone > E-Z Key > Research Applications Prod. There were projects for proper keyboards for the ZX81, and I think the Spectrum published in 'Electronics, The Maplin Magazine' in the UK. Maplin sold kits for these (not suprisingly). -tony From grant at stockly.com Sat Nov 17 17:35:01 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:35:01 -0900 Subject: S-100 Memory Card Design Input Message-ID: <0JRO000S6C6A6E80@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I posted a few minutes ago on usenet in comp.os.cpm about a big fancy S-100 memory card. If anyone in here would like to add to the feature list or suggest a change, now is the time to do it. We should probably keep the discussion in one place, and its already at comp.os.cpm, so maybe reply there? Here is the text: THIS is your chance to get in any requirements. The board will have quite a few QFP and fine surface mount parts. Hardware modifications at a later date may be hard. : ) I am designing the board around MITS S-100 specifications. I do not have any other S-100 machines or experience with them. If your IMSAI or whatever has additional I/O, then please tell me if its I/O, I, O, the pin, and what it does. For example, I really have no idea how PHANTOM works. I'm not really interested in digging up the details on how these things work since the have no meaning to an Altair. The I/O question is a biggie. Timing is not an issue since that can be worked out at a later date in the CPLD. If there is an Altair signal that is only an input and you want/need it to be I/O, I would also need to know that now. The board will have a landing for 128kbyte ($2.80) or 512kbyte ($5.10) SRAM. It will also have a landing for 512k of FLASH ($4.62). The price difference between 64kx8 and 512kx8 is $2, so it hardly makes sense to choose 64kx8... Bank swapping can/will be worked out later in the CPLD code. This board MAY have a landing for a bunch of other optional functions, but for those of you who don't care about those options, you don't need to install them. For example, two 6850 type serial ports, 4x SD cards to emulate Altair disk drive systems, mp3 decoder and ethernet ; ). Another point to discuss is if its worth having an 8MByte 8 pin soic (very small, like pinkey finger nail sized) FLASH chip tied directly to the CPLD. This would allow the 8080/Z80 to access the serial flash without AVR interference. The 4 SD cards for Altair disk emulation are not available directly to the 8080. Is it also worth having a 5th SD card also directly connected to the CPLD? How many of the 8MByte data flash chips should there be? The poor things are $2.70 a piece and we could have 4-8 and hardly notice. All of the chips will be tied together with a Xylinx MAX II CPLD, and buffered to the S-100 bus with 8T97 or equivalent ICs. As you can see I am very flexible. My goal is to create a "SuperAltair" card with a lot of universal appeal. Sort of "add the chips you want and nothing more" card. Should I throw in the functionality of the GIDE while I'm at it? Let me know what you want and I'll see if I can fit it in. The entire card will be open source, except for the ROM monitor which is IP to a fellow enthusiast. I will sell the PCBs for around $35. The CPLD is $10, SRAM/FLASH as priced above, add a few $ for heat sinks and voltage regulators and you could be started for under $60. I will be soldering the crazy surface mount parts for those who are not brave enough. ; ) Grant From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Nov 17 17:41:41 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 18:41:41 -0500 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <1195175674.473ceefaa9dde@secure.zipcon.net> References: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com> <1195175674.473ceefaa9dde@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <473F7C35.8060803@atarimuseum.com> The Atari 8bit computer disk drives, were were SIO Bus (Serial I/O Bus - what amounts to a very early version of USB) were the 810 and Atari 1050 disk drives which used 6507's for communicating to/from the host Atari PC as well as a WD floppy controller (Atari 810 - 1771, Atari 1050 - 2793 or 2797 depending on revision of model) The later XF551 Atari 8bit disk drives used an 8040/8050 and WD 1772 Everything on the Atari SIO bus were essentially "Intelligent Peripherals" that had to have their own CPU chip in order to talk across on the SIO Bus. It was a nice design and its over-sized trapezoid connectors made hooking up (Daisy Chaining) peripherals an easy no-brainer/no mistake setup. However, these intelligent peripherals ended up hurting the Atari 8bit line because of their inherently high expense. It was interesting - in 1983 you could buy an Atari 800XL computer for around $299, but the 1050 XL series disk drives cost $359 or higher, so the cost of owning a disk drive was a luxury, owning two such devices was a rare sight to see for many Atari users at the time. The 1772 were also used on most of the 16/32bit Atari ST computers. Atari would later develop a custom IC called "Ajax" for high density floppy drive usage. (Atari IC part#'s C302096, C302434) Curt The Atari XF551 Geoff Reed wrote: > the C= disk drives were pretty much all smart drives weren't they? the big dual > drive units had a controller card in them that was basically a small computer (IIRC) > > also Atari disk drives had a 650x IIRC in them as well as a disk controller chip > (once again IIRC.) > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 17 18:40:21 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:40:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 17, 7 09:59:02 pm" Message-ID: <200711180040.lAI0eLJ4012260@floodgap.com> > As an aside, IMHO one of the worst mistakes commodore made was that the > 8050 could not at least read the disks of the earlier drives. But then there might have been a situation like the 4040 and the 1540/1541, where the gap is enough to let each read the other's floppies but too much to allow successful writing. There was a lot of cussing about that early on after a perfectly normal drive would eat a previously good disk because it was originally written with one drive and then written again to with the other. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Shell scripting: the ultimate open source software. ------------------------ From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Nov 17 18:45:04 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 18:45:04 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <761183.58233.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <761183.58233.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473F8B10.2070903@mdrconsult.com> Chris M wrote: > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 17 Nov 2007 at 10:22, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >>> >From memory, and it was a while ago, we had three >> voltage dividers to >>> knock the TTL outputs down to .7v, and then three >> more resistors from >>> the intensity bit to the analogue outputs. >>> >>> There may have been some diodes there. >>> >>> The sync combiner was a couple of resistors and a >> transistor. >> >> It can also be done with a 74LS06 OC inverter and a >> few resistors. A >> fancy version might use a '221 one shot to adjust >> sync pulse position >> and width. I think the one I used to drive an RGB >> monitor with SOG >> from a VGA output used a 74HC86 XOR and was >> self-powered. > > what would be nice if there was an area for the group > to act as a *scratch pad*. So some of this stuff could > go down *on paper*. Thoughts?... Something like this? http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ Doc From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 17 19:17:30 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:17:30 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > I 'rescued' a unique piece of computer equipment... > > Here is the data: > > Raytheon I would look at the components to see what era they are. If it is 70's or 80's Raytheon made a lot of airline res terminal type equipment. I know that Univac / Unisys had the TWA concession and had something called UTS40 (I think) that had a z80 in it and with a huge over engineered subsystem could run CP/M But they had usually horrible com gear type hardware to do all the crap that the Reservation systems could do. Sometimes they had local data needs which had to be update, hence the floppies. Data such as flight numbers or network configuration data would be loaded locally, to save network time. This sort of fits with the 10 / 12 pitch info too, in that there would have been report / ticket generation capability by adding a printer. I found a google hit that Raytheon Data Systems was formed in 1971 by merging information processing and terminal manufacturing divisions, which I think is where the RDS comes from (obviously) Jim From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Nov 17 20:34:46 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:34:46 -0500 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net> <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> jim s wrote: > Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> >> I 'rescued' a unique piece of computer equipment... >> >> Here is the data: >> >> Raytheon > I would look at the components to see what era they are. If it is > 70's or 80's Raytheon made a lot of airline res terminal type equipment. Not finding any clear indication of dates from the boards. Some of the chips if I'm reading them correct look date coded in 1982. CPU board has 8085 cpu, a D3242 ? HM4864P-2 (16 of them) who is TEC ? (maker of the boards... nothing anywhere stamped raytheon data systems, etc on the boards) > > I know that Univac / Unisys had the TWA concession and had something > called UTS40 (I think) that had a z80 in it and with a huge over > engineered subsystem could run CP/M But they had usually horrible com > gear type hardware to do all the crap that the Reservation systems > could do. > > Sometimes they had local data needs which had to be update, hence the > floppies. Data such as flight numbers or network configuration data > would be loaded locally, to save network time. > > This sort of fits with the 10 / 12 pitch info too, in that there would > have been report / ticket generation capability by adding a printer. > > I found a google hit that Raytheon Data Systems was formed in 1971 by > merging information processing and terminal manufacturing divisions, > which I think is where the RDS comes from (obviously) > > Jim Well, I doubt anyone would be interested in this (especially since it is missing the keyboard, it is in unknown operational condition, and I'd assume needed to boot from diskette (as there is only one 2716 EPROM). Gutted it would make a spiffy PC conversion.... (just to put something 'runnable' in a really cool retro case). This isn't something I like... as I've seen ppl wreck nice gear to do that.... but this is pretty useless, doubtful has much interest, and is missing stuff that would even allow it to be toyed with). Was hoping the boards would be some std boards globbed together for the function (since everything wasn't smeared with Raytheon/RDS inside). -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 20:41:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 18:41:03 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <473F35BF.30149.25F1D608@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2007 at 17:17, jim s wrote: > This sort of fits with the 10 / 12 pitch info too, in that there would > have been report / ticket generation capability by adding a printer. Google on "Lexitron Raytheon" or consult "Raytheon; The first 60 years" by Earls and Edwards. After 1978, Lexitron was a divisoin of RDS in OA (word processing). The acquisition of Lexitron in 1977 was a huge blunder on Raytheon's part and the operation was pretty much gone by the mid-80's. A shame really that the history of OA from the 1960's onward is pretty much forgotten. Lexitron was the product of "boy genius" Stephen Kurtin back in 1970 and went public in 1972. A floppy version of the Lexitron WP equipment didn't appear until 1978; prior to that time, document storage was on tape; around 1980, the Lexitron name was dropped, IIRC. AFAIK, Lexitron gear used its own operationg system. Talk about history vanishing...I found only two mentions of Artec International on Google--and only just in passing. But in 1977, we were using their WP gear and it was pretty nice--basically rebadged Diablo Hyterms with a small (1 or 2 line) LCD display and a floor- standing unit with the CPU and 8" floppy drives. If you went one step up, you could get a video display for one. IIRC, in 1977 dollars, one would set you back about $10K+. Shame that no one collects this stuff. It created a revolution in the corporate office. Before the advent of WP and OA in general, it was typewriters and steno pads (does anyone still know Gregg shorthand?) Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 17 21:03:39 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:03:39 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net> <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <473FAB8B.1050009@sbcglobal.net> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > jim s wrote: >> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>> >>> I 'rescued' a unique piece of computer equipment... >>> >>> Here is the data: >>> >>> Raytheon >> I would look at the components to see what era they are. If it is >> 70's or 80's Raytheon made a lot of airline res terminal type equipment. > > Not finding any clear indication of dates from the boards. Some of > the chips > if I'm reading them correct look date coded in 1982. > > CPU board has 8085 cpu, a D3242 ? HM4864P-2 (16 of them) > > who is TEC ? (maker of the boards... nothing anywhere stamped raytheon > data > systems, etc on the boards) > TEC was a manufacture of CRT terminals. I have two TEC rack-mount model 400 terminals, 1975 vintage I think. Bob From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 17 21:10:20 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:10:20 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473FAB8B.1050009@sbcglobal.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net> <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> <473FAB8B.1050009@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <473FAD1C.3050404@msm.umr.edu> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> >> who is TEC ? (maker of the boards... nothing anywhere stamped >> raytheon data >> systems, etc on the boards) >> > TEC was a manufacture of CRT terminals. I have two TEC rack-mount > model 400 terminals, > 1975 vintage I think. > > Bob hopefully correct snippage. TEC is Tokyo Electric Company if you want an alternate google search (also less ambiguity). Any other acronyms on large boards might be interesting. It's interesting that Raytheon would have packaged TEC parts into a product in 1982, since TEC was a big vendor of such devices are Cash registers, and the like on their own. But they did a lot of terminal and standalone things like Cash registers as products. I don't know if they still exist as TEC or not as a maker ot terminal equipment today. If they do, hits on that crap in Google will mess up your search. Jim From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Nov 17 21:19:23 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:19:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: TEC (was Re: what the heck is it) In-Reply-To: <473FAD1C.3050404@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <175953.29961.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- jim s wrote: > TEC is Tokyo Electric Company if you want an > alternate google search The terminal maker was a different TEC, namely the Transistor Electronics Company. Besides terminals, they made switches and indicators. I recall seeing early advertisements for their keyswitches, which is possibly how they got into the terminal business. http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=t-z&company=com-42bc22fbb9812 Computer History Museum - Transistor Electronics Corporation (TEC) - New TEC Lite Data Panel From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Nov 17 21:18:31 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:18:31 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473F35BF.30149.25F1D608@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> <473F35BF.30149.25F1D608@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473FAF07.3020807@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Nov 2007 at 17:17, jim s wrote: > > > Shame that no one collects this stuff. It created a revolution in > the corporate office. Before the advent of WP and OA in general, it > was typewriters and steno pads (does anyone still know Gregg > shorthand?) > > Cheers, > Chuck > I agree it's a shame, but I always ran from this stuff in surplus because I figured I'd never find the software and manuals, which I require to get involved in collecting something. Word processors are just to far down on the food chain to store for 10 years hoping to find some software from a bunch of aholes who made a career of making weird floppy formats for no reason other than to keep people from making cheap media for their over priced hardware. (sort of a rant, sorry). I have very proprietary stuff, but only if I had extraordinary access to the goods to make it worthwhile to get the stuff, and for machines which were more general purpose than just word processing. There was a "museum of office automation" or such in Kansas City maintained by the OA manufacturers association for many years. The group eventually shrank down to where they liquidated their collection and sold the headquarters building about 5 or 10 years ago. A friend who repaired printers maintained a membership for years and clued me in to some of the stuff that was sold off, and John Bohner hauled off 3 Addressograph machines, as an example of the stuff that was there. But I don't know of any other collections of the like. They actually may not have had that much electronic gear, as much as the older stuff. Jim From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Nov 17 21:26:56 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:26:56 -0800 Subject: Early U.S. Robotics modems Message-ID: <000e01c82992$e799f5d0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> I have updated my web page on the first U.S. Robotics modems. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/USR/USR_Modem.htm A 300 baud acoustic coupler USR-310 was only $139. The USR-330 with originate and auto answer was $324. (February 1978 prices.) I recall that someone on this list worked there in the early days. Michael Holley From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 21:43:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:43:10 -0800 Subject: TEC (was Re: what the heck is it) In-Reply-To: <175953.29961.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <473FAD1C.3050404@msm.umr.edu>, <175953.29961.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473F444E.9835.262AB431@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2007 at 19:19, William Maddox wrote: > The terminal maker was a different TEC, namely > the Transistor Electronics Company. Besides > terminals, they made switches and indicators. > I recall seeing early advertisements for their > keyswitches, which is possibly how they got into > the terminal business. Might "TEC" also stand for "Texas Engineering Center", a Dallas division of Raytheon? I know that internally, it's referred to as "TEC". It could be that the board layout and design was done there. Just guessin'... Cheers, Chuck From mikelee at tdh.com Sat Nov 17 22:20:22 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:20:22 -0600 Subject: Early U.S. Robotics modems In-Reply-To: <000e01c82992$e799f5d0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000e01c82992$e799f5d0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <473FBD86.3050606@tdh.com> Awesome, I've always ment to go and find out more about the original USR modems. There's a lot on the history of other modem devices and companies out there but not much for the way of the USR stuff. Thanks for that info. Now to go searching to get my hands on one. :) Michael Holley wrote: > I have updated my web page on the first U.S. Robotics modems. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/USR/USR_Modem.htm > > A 300 baud acoustic coupler USR-310 was only $139. The USR-330 with > originate and auto answer was $324. (February 1978 prices.) > > I recall that someone on this list worked there in the early days. > > Michael Holley > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 17 23:06:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:06:08 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu>, <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <473F57C0.63.2676A885@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2007 at 21:34, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Not finding any clear indication of dates from the boards. Some of the > chips if I'm reading them correct look date coded in 1982. > > CPU board has 8085 cpu, a D3242 ? HM4864P-2 (16 of them) Sort of a yawn so far. the D3242 part is an Intel address mux/refresh counter and the 4864's are 64x1 DRAMs (128K system). What does the unit use for a CRTC and FDC? Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Nov 17 22:59:45 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:59:45 -0500 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives Message-ID: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:59:02 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: "intelligent" disk drives >As an aside, IMHO one of the worst mistakes commodore made was that the >8050 could not at least read the disks of the earlier drives. >-tony -------- Sort of unavoidable because to get the 500MB/side they went to 100TPI drives. Not as big a problem then as it may be today, because the high price of the 8050/8250s tended to put them into a different market, mostly business and institutional, where price and compatibility with the smaller and cheaper units wasn't usually an issue. And of course the IEEE bus was compatible so you could easily convert among drives (until the serial versions came along) as long as you had one of the (also expensive) IEEE<>IEEE cables. m From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 23:21:22 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:21:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03> References: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20071117211855.J88505@shell.lmi.net> > >As an aside, IMHO one of the worst mistakes commodore made was that the > >8050 could not at least read the disks of the earlier drives. On Sat, 17 Nov 2007, M H Stein wrote: > Sort of unavoidable because to get the 500MB/side they went to 100TPI drives. Well, 96tpi drives would give pretty much the same capacity as 100tpi ones, with only "half" as many incompatabilities. 'course, if they HAD gotten 500MB/side (v 400-500KB), then it would have been well worth it. > > Not as big a problem then as it may be today, because the high price of > the 8050/8250s tended to put them into a different market, mostly business > and institutional, where price and compatibility with the smaller and cheaper > units wasn't usually an issue. And of course the IEEE bus was compatible > so you could easily convert among drives (until the serial versions came > along) as long as you had one of the (also expensive) IEEE<>IEEE cables. > > m > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 18 00:07:46 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:07:46 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473EC527.22159.243A0777@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <833446.92273.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <473EC527.22159.243A0777@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473FD6B2.1040105@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > We've been here before. The IBM color display as well as the EGA > version contains a PROM to correct the "dark yellow" color to brown. > It was duplicated on few, if any third-party units. It wasn't a PROM, just circuitry. Some more details here (from the thread last year): http://www.oldskool.org/pc/cgacal -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 18 00:08:57 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:08:57 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <473FD6F9.6010702@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > the very nice Trinitron > TTL/analogue monitor A trinitron TTL monitor!! I had no idea such beasts existed! You've just named my next Holy Grail to find. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 18 00:47:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:47:33 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473FD6F9.6010702@oldskool.org> References: , <473FD6F9.6010702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <473F6F85.26594.26D37FE6@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2007 at 0:08, Jim Leonard wrote: > A trinitron TTL monitor!! I had no idea such beasts existed! You've > just named my next Holy Grail to find. They weren't that hard to find. My first EGA monitor was a Sony CPD- 1302 multiscan (I may even have the service docs for it somewhere). It would actually do both TTL and analogue (selectable by a switch in the rear). CGA, MDA and EGA and lesser VGA, as well as serve as a Mac display. Had the usual shadows from the damper wires, but otherwise a good sharp display--and not bad for the money at the time. I had two of them and both were working after 10 years of hard use when I gave them away. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 18 01:02:57 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 01:02:57 -0600 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473F6F85.26594.26D37FE6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <473FD6F9.6010702@oldskool.org> <473F6F85.26594.26D37FE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <473FE3A1.8000608@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > They weren't that hard to find. My first EGA monitor was a Sony CPD- Key word here being "weren't". They sure are hard to find *now*. I don't know where this list finds these miracle recyclers, but I am in the chicagoland suburbs and every goodwill, computer recycler, etc. simply doesn't have this neat stuff. Jason T. has been diligent in combing through the local Craigslist but I am relegated to pawing through the remains of Bell Labs^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HLucent^H^H^H^H^H^HAlcatel-Lucent's Naperville/Lisle campus buildings, where I am currently employed. (And before anyway asks, I can't remove stuff off-campus, sorry. But it's not that interesting -- mostly common Sparc 20/Ultra-5 parts and various non-trinitron monitors.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Nov 18 05:34:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:34:45 -0700 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:03:39 -0800. <473FAB8B.1050009@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <473FAB8B.1050009 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > TEC was a manufacture of CRT terminals. I have two TEC rack-mount model > 400 terminals, > 1975 vintage I think. Did someone say terminals? :-) Got any pictures of these, Bob? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Nov 18 06:56:49 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:56:49 -0800 Subject: Multibus prototyping card (going soon on eBay) Message-ID: <47403691.4050303@pacbell.net> Augat pin-board show up with some regularity on eBay, but this one is particularly interesting because it looks to be Multibus form-factor. As of this moment, a gold scrapper is the high bidder. One of you multibus fans must certainly want it. It needs to have some wiring stripped, but it looks to be in good shape. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320181330426 MILITARY AUGAT WIRE WRAP PCB - GOLD SCRAP 1.125 LBS - (eBay item 320181330426 end time Nov-18-07 08:15:18 PST) From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Nov 18 09:58:27 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:58:27 -0500 Subject: TEC (was Re: what the heck is it) In-Reply-To: <473F444E.9835.262AB431@cclist.sydex.com> References: <473FAD1C.3050404@msm.umr.edu>, <175953.29961.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473F444E.9835.262AB431@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47406123.2050302@hawkmountain.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Nov 2007 at 19:19, William Maddox wrote: > > > >> The terminal maker was a different TEC, namely >> the Transistor Electronics Company. Besides >> terminals, they made switches and indicators. >> I recall seeing early advertisements for their >> keyswitches, which is possibly how they got into >> the terminal business. >> > > Might "TEC" also stand for "Texas Engineering Center", a Dallas > division of Raytheon? I know that internally, it's referred to as > "TEC". It could be that the board layout and design was done there. > > Just guessin'... > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I'd think not as all the boards also say "MADE IN JAPAN". -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Nov 18 10:00:49 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:00:49 -0500 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473F57C0.63.2676A885@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu>, <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> <473F57C0.63.2676A885@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <474061B1.7010406@hawkmountain.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Nov 2007 at 21:34, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > >> Not finding any clear indication of dates from the boards. Some of the >> chips if I'm reading them correct look date coded in 1982. >> >> CPU board has 8085 cpu, a D3242 ? HM4864P-2 (16 of them) >> > > Sort of a yawn so far. the D3242 part is an Intel address > mux/refresh counter and the 4864's are 64x1 DRAMs (128K system). > What does the unit use for a CRTC and FDC? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > 3 large chips on the FDC board... N8X305I N8X330N N8X320N The display i/f board... looks like all TTL, some RAM, and one EPROM The connection to the monitor is an internal DB25 (for power and signals). -- Curt From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 18 10:47:16 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:47:16 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it - TEC Terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47406C94.5010305@sbcglobal.net> Richard wrote: > In article <473FAB8B.1050009 at sbcglobal.net>, > Bob Rosenbloom writes: > > >> TEC was a manufacture of CRT terminals. I have two TEC rack-mount model >> 400 terminals, >> 1975 vintage I think. >> > > Did someone say terminals? :-) > > Got any pictures of these, Bob? > Yes, there's some on my web site at: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/misc.htm About 3/4 the way down. These were used with a Litton inertial navigation test system I have. The display section is rack-mount and the keyboard was in a rack drawer. Bob From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 18 12:27:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:27:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473F6F85.26594.26D37FE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <24983.20848.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Nov 2007 at 0:08, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > A trinitron TTL monitor!! I had no idea such > beasts existed! You've > > just named my next Holy Grail to find. > > They weren't that hard to find. My first EGA > monitor was a Sony CPD- > 1302 multiscan (I may even have the service docs for > it somewhere). > > It would actually do both TTL and analogue > (selectable by a switch in > the rear). That doesn't count! Once NEC released the Multisync, everyone started copying it. IIRC the Sony was the first to do 800 x 600 SEGA/VGA. The Multisync II only went to 800 x 560 technically. It probably could do 600 lines, funny I can't remember, but it was a strain in all likelihood. weeeeeeeeeeee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 18 12:39:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:39:37 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <474061B1.7010406@hawkmountain.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F57C0.63.2676A885@cclist.sydex.com>, <474061B1.7010406@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <47401669.29022.295F714E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2007 at 11:00, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > 3 large chips on the FDC board... > > N8X305I > N8X330N > N8X320N > Signetics bipolar microcontroller stuff. Very interesting in that the 8x330 is used--it's the floppy controller of the series; you don't run across them very much. It's designed to interface with the 8x300 series and nothing else. The 8x320 is the register array usually used to interface the 8x300 to external systems. You should probably find some bipolar RAM and ROM there also as well as some I/O ports (8T32/8T36). What makes this unusual is that it's found on an 8085 system with 5.25" floppies rather than a traditional MOS FDC. Were this only for floppies, this definitely would have been a ridiculously expensive implementation for the time (and power-hungry). However, I wonder if that board doesn't also have a hard disk interface connector (e.g. SA4000) which would have been right for the time--and made sense. Is there an EPROM for the 8085 on the main board? If so, have you dumped it? It might clinch the identification. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 18 12:48:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:48:46 -0800 Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <24983.20848.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <473F6F85.26594.26D37FE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <24983.20848.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4740188E.14115.2967D031@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2007 at 10:27, Chris M wrote: >> That doesn't count! Once NEC released the Multisync, > everyone started copying it. IIRC, when scan rates were changed on the Sony, there was a bunch of "clickety-click" of relays that you didn't hear with the NECs. My 12" Mitsubishi Diamond Scan is completely silent when changing scan rates. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 18 13:17:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:17:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <4740188E.14115.2967D031@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <846695.96353.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> when my Multisync II (NEC) was new, you'd here 1 click. Over the years it would say click 3 times. Occasionally it would click loads of times, like a scaled down anti-aircraft weapon. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Nov 2007 at 10:27, Chris M wrote: > > >> That doesn't count! Once NEC released the > Multisync, > > everyone started copying it. > > IIRC, when scan rates were changed on the Sony, > there was a bunch of > "clickety-click" of relays that you didn't hear with > the NECs. My > 12" Mitsubishi Diamond Scan is completely silent > when changing scan > rates. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 18 13:32:10 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:32:10 -0500 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives Message-ID: <01C829EF.EF3E01C0@MSE_D03> ---------Original Message: Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:21:22 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: "intelligent" disk drives > >As an aside, IMHO one of the worst mistakes commodore made was that the > >8050 could not at least read the disks of the earlier drives. On Sat, 17 Nov 2007, M H Stein wrote: > Sort of unavoidable because to get the 500MB/side they went to 100TPI drives. Well, 96tpi drives would give pretty much the same capacity as 100tpi ones, with only "half" as many incompatabilities. 'course, if they HAD gotten 500MB/side (v 400-500KB), then it would have been well worth it. -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com ---------Reply: Someone actually reads my drivel? Another dent in my forehead ;-) My fingers are typing 500K and the brain, such as it is, is thinking 1/2MB... Yeah, tell me about 100TPI; a couple of us with Vector Graphics are cursing the day Micropolis came up with those; to top it off, they used hard sector diskettes (Vector - the 8050 didn't care) so the disks are almost as scarce as the drives... m From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Nov 18 14:31:19 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:31:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? Message-ID: I was reading this article: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=2007-11-18_D8T08P0O0&show_article=1 ...and was wondering how many vintage machines one could find if they traipsed around China for a summer and visited all the various e-waste processing gulags that (litterally) litter the country. There is literally billions of pounds of e-waste entering China every year. If even a fraction of a fraction of that is old systems that are worth collecting and a fraction of that is still in some sort of complete and unwrecked condition, there is a vintage computer bounty waiting to be plundered by a brave privateer. The trick is getting it back to your place of origin ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Nov 18 15:35:56 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:35:56 -0500 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net> <473F92AA.8080702@msm.umr.edu> <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200711181635.56773.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 17 November 2007 21:34, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > who is TEC ? (maker of the boards... nothing anywhere stamped raytheon data > systems, etc on the boards) TTBOMK that stands for "Tokyo Electric Corp.". I've run into that brand name before, cash registers and such... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Nov 18 15:41:12 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:41:12 -0500 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071117211855.J88505@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03> <20071117211855.J88505@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711181641.12529.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 18 November 2007 00:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >As an aside, IMHO one of the worst mistakes commodore made was that the > > >8050 could not at least read the disks of the earlier drives. > > On Sat, 17 Nov 2007, M H Stein wrote: > > Sort of unavoidable because to get the 500MB/side they went to 100TPI > > drives. > > Well, 96tpi drives would give pretty much the same capacity as 100tpi > ones, with only "half" as many incompatabilities. > > 'course, if they HAD gotten 500MB/side (v 400-500KB), then it would have > been well worth it. Speaking of which, I recall seeing announcements every so often of floppy drives that would have seriously more capacity than the usual stuff. Something about "vertical format" sticks in my mind, though not much more than that. Is this what that LS120 was all about? I think I ever only encountered _one_ of those drives... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Nov 18 16:16:45 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:16:45 -0000 Subject: Variations on Commodore monitors References: Message-ID: <004d01c82a30$b50b69c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Maybe looking at the main PCB will reveal something. The typical >Philips monitor this is likely to be based on -- the CM8883 and >related models.... As I recall, there were either 3 or 4 models based on the same design/PCB. They differed in whether they were stereo or mono, what video inputs they supported (TTL and/or analogue RGB and composite) and the tube "resolution" (dot pitch). I still use an 8833 to this day as my TV.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Nov 18 16:22:36 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:22:36 -0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives References: <20071115141648.10ED556849@mail.wordstock.com><1195175674.473ceefaa9dde@secure.zipcon.net><20071116012950.GA5718@usap.gov> Message-ID: <006c01c82a31$863f5240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....I think he was joking, of course, given the >horrendous bottlenecks in its software and its bus >protocol. To be fair, the only thing wrong with the CBM serial bus was the speed it ran at....or rather the lack of it.... TTFN - Pete. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 18 13:42:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:42:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <473F7C35.8060803@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Nov 17, 7 06:41:41 pm Message-ID: > > The Atari 8bit computer disk drives, were were SIO Bus (Serial I/O Bus - > what amounts to a very early version of USB) were the 810 and Atari 1050 > disk drives which used 6507's for communicating to/from the host Atari > PC as well as a WD floppy controller (Atari 810 - 1771, Atari 1050 - > 2793 or 2797 depending on revision of model) I suppose I should mention the HP HPIB and HPIL drives, which all had intellegent controllers. The only HPIL driv I know about is the 9114. It contains an HPIL chip (1LB3 for the HP types here), a 68B09 processor, 2793 controller, and glue logic to control a Sony 3.5" floppy drive. It's battery-powered (2.5Ah lead acid pack), much of the electronics powers down when the drive is not being accessed (only the HPIL chip and RAM remain active) to save power. The 5.25" HPIB floppy drive I've seen (82901 I think) uses a 6802 processor + Fujitsu (WD-like) floppy controller chip, glue, etc. Mains powered (as are all the HPIB dries I know of), it uses a pair of HP-speced (gold-plated PCBs, etc) TM100-2 drives. The dual 3.5" HPIB drives again use a 68B09 + much the same disk controller circuit linked to a pair of the Sony full-height 3.5" drives. The combined 3.5" floppy + 5.25" winchester units (9133) come in many forms. Later ones have a combined cotnroller board with a 68B09 + WD1010 hard disk controller + floppy controller, etc. The drives are a Sony 3.5" floppy drive and a stnadard winchester drive (ST412 interface). The earlier ones are stranger, they have 2 separate disk controllers in them, simply linked to the same HPIB connector. Each has a 68B09 and the appropriate contreoller stuff. THis is where I learnt that the ST412 is actually a member of a family including the ST406 (single platter, 2 heads, 6Mbyte unformatted) and ST419 (3 platters, 6 heads, 19Mbytes unformatted) drives. I'd never heard of an ST406 before. Even later, there was the 9153 (floppy/winchester) and 9154 (winchester only) unit. Again 98B09 based, but now everything in SMD packages (the 68B09 is a PLCC package). The winchesters are HP custom units with a strange interface -- fairly high level for positioning the heads, but still the raw bit stream for reading and writing. Their cartridge tape drives also have intellegent controllers. Mostly 68x09 based, but the 9145 I have has what appears to be a 68000 inside -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 18 13:45:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:45:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <200711180040.lAI0eLJ4012260@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 17, 7 04:40:21 pm Message-ID: > > > As an aside, IMHO one of the worst mistakes commodore made was that the > > 8050 could not at least read the disks of the earlier drives. > > But then there might have been a situation like the 4040 and the 1540/1541, > where the gap is enough to let each read the other's floppies but too much to > allow successful writing. There was a lot of cussing about that early on after I don't see what there should be problems for those 2 drives to write each other's disks, at least not at the hardware level. In any case, that's why I sead 'at least read'. The 8050 did have more tracks than the 4040, and we all know what problems are caused when a disk is iwritten by a narrower head than the one that formatted it [1]. But even being ale to read the disks would be a good start. Presumably software companies had to sell their programs in both 4040 and 8050 formats, for example. [1] Yes, I am aware the 8050 is a 100tpi drive. IMHO making it a 96tpi drive and allowing it to double-step to read 4040 disks would have made much more sense. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 18 13:51:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:51:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <473FA4C6.8070004@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at Nov 17, 7 09:34:46 pm Message-ID: > if I'm reading them correct look date coded in 1982. > > CPU board has 8085 cpu, a D3242 ? HM4864P-2 (16 of them) 4864 = 64K*1 DRAM. So you've got 128Kytes of RAM there. 3242 is an Intel DRAM address multiplexer and refresh counter. Reasonably common on old DRAM boards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 18 16:34:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:34:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL input Trinitron monitor Message-ID: I've found the Torch XXX hardware docs, which cover that little Trinitron monitor I mentioend It's quite small, probably a 12" CRT. Inside are the following PCBs : FA (PSU), with a control daughterboard. This gives 120V DC from the mains (SMPSU), all other voltages come from the flyback transformer DA (Scan) with a convergence daughterboard. CRT base (icnludes video output stages) BA (Video) H (rear panel controls) Input socket (not Sony, this is a Torch PCB) The input socket PCB connects to the video PCB by a 10 wire jumper. 4 of the wires are grounds, the 6 siganls are R, G, B, Y(== I on a CGA interface), HSynch and Vsync. The Torch socket PCB doesn't connect to the Y signal at all, but then Torch machines had analgue RGB outputs and the BBC micro had 3-bit TTL video, so this would be no problem for the intented applications. Tehre's a 3 position slide swtich on the back to select the input mode. The possiblities are analogue RGB, 3-bit TTL RGB (8 colours) and 4-bit TTL RBGI (CGA compatile, it does get the brown colour right). It's strictly TV-rates only (not EGA or VGA), but it does work with both US and European rates. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 18 16:11:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:11:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Nov 17, 7 11:59:45 pm Message-ID: > Sort of unavoidable because to get the 500MB/side they went to 100TPI drives. How many tracks did they put on the disk? I know that some 100tpi systems were 77 track. Would it hae been a major loss to use 96tpi drives, which could at least have read 40 track (48 tpi) disks by double-stepping. > > Not as big a problem then as it may be today, because the high price of > the 8050/8250s tended to put them into a different market, mostly business > and institutional, where price and compatibility with the smaller and cheaper > units wasn't usually an issue. And of course the IEEE bus was compatible > so you could easily convert among drives (until the serial versions came > along) as long as you had one of the (also expensive) IEEE<>IEEE cables. It's been a long time since I used one of these 'in anger' but wasn't there an issue witch copying one of the random-access file types between disks? (or maye between disks in different drive units). If I'm rememebring correctly, it means the converting between 4040 and 8050 disks is a pain even if you haev both drive units . -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 18 16:16:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:16:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL RGB ==> PC In-Reply-To: <473FD6F9.6010702@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Nov 18, 7 00:08:57 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > the very nice Trinitron > > TTL/analogue monitor > > A trinitron TTL monitor!! I had no idea such beasts existed! You've > just named my next Holy Grail to find. The unit I have is badged 'Torch', who were a company who started off selling add-ons for the BBC micro (including second processors) and then made somewhat odd unix machines with a graphical front end, like the XXX. The monitor is clearly a Sony chassis, although the input connector is proabably Torch. It's an 8-pin DIN socket, 2 of the pins of which go to a piezo buzzer in the monitor. This socket is mounted on a little PCB that is then connected to a header plug on one of the PCBs of the monitor. The chassis is 3 main PCBs (PSU, deflection, video) with a couple of daughterboards. Being a SOny, there are some very helpful annotations on the silkscreen, including things like the CRT pinout. It's one of the older Trinitron CRTs with the coaxial EHT connector for horizontal static convergernce adjustment. Vey nicely made and easy to keep going :-) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 18 16:42:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:42:01 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <200711181641.12529.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03>, <20071117211855.J88505@shell.lmi.net>, <200711181641.12529.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47404F39.28908.2A3D5BDD@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2007 at 16:41, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > 'course, if they HAD gotten 500MB/side (v 400-500KB), then it would have > > been well worth it. > > Speaking of which, I recall seeing announcements every so often of floppy > drives that would have seriously more capacity than the usual stuff. > Something about "vertical format" sticks in my mind, though not much more > than that. Is this what that LS120 was all about? I think I ever only > encountered _one_ of those drives... Maybe you mean perpendicular recording (PMR) that was used in the 2.88MB 3.5" floppies. Very unreliable. DSHD 3.5" diskettes are rated somewhere around 17-18 kbpi density; an LS-120 exhibits about 45 kbpi--the real capacity gain is achieved by packing more tracks on the disk. The LS-120 does this with an overlay that guides as IR laser servo setup to get 1376 tracks per side. The disk is spun faster to improve S/N. The Zip drives use an "embedded" servo for positioning; that is, the servo information is part of the normal track. In addition, Zip disks have extra tracks called "Z tracks" which, among other things, track and hide bad sectors so that every disk looks more-or-less 100% "good". You cannot low-level format a Zip disk--if you degauss one, it's trash, since the servo information is written at the factory and nowhere else. The Iomega drives were not the first floppies to use embedded servo-- Drivetek was--and obtained about 2.8MB and later 6.4MB on a 5.25" diskette. If you happen to run across one of the 2.88MB ones, try reading it in a 1.2MB drive--you'll find that you can see every other track; thus, the Drivetek recorded 160 tracks per side. It used a dual-positioner technology; a "coarse" positioner and a "fine" positioner. But like all embedded-servo drives, the media was factory-formatted. (BTW, Wikipedia is utterly silent on Drivetek). Hope this helps. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Nov 18 16:41:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:41:31 +0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <006c01c82a31$863f5240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <006c01c82a31$863f5240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20071118224131.GA24981@usap.gov> On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 10:22:36PM -0000, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....I think he was joking, of course, given the > >horrendous bottlenecks in its software and its bus > >protocol. > > To be fair, the only thing wrong with the CBM serial bus was the speed it > ran at....or rather the lack of it.... Indeed. There's a well-documented saga of how the bit-serialization was supposed to be done in hardware, but could not due to bugs with the interface chip. IIRC, it was a CB2 problem with the 6522 VIAs on the 1540 drive and the on the VIC-20 (the first machine to use the CBM serial bus). IIRC, the problem was fixed with the 6526 CIAs, but the moment had passed. The link was so slow that for a commercial product, "Micro Mother Goose", we employed a simple compression scheme on the splash screen and menu screens because it meant that we were loading fewer overall bytes from the drive, so it loaded faster. We also saved space on the diskette, but that was an entirely unnecessary optimization. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Nov-2007 at 22:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -42.5 F (-41.4 C) Windchill -64.0 F (-53.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.9 kts Grid 76 Barometer 685.4 mb (10425 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From legalize at xmission.com Sun Nov 18 16:52:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:52:44 -0700 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:31:19 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Sellam Ismail writes: > I was reading this article: > > http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=2007-11-18_D8T08P0O0&show_article=1 > > ...and was wondering how many vintage machines one could find if they > traipsed around China for a summer and visited all the various e-waste > processing gulags that (litterally) litter the country. I was under the impression that most of it was shredded before being shipped there, since you were able to ship it more efficiently that way. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 18 17:24:37 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:24:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <200711181641.12529.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03> <20071117211855.J88505@shell.lmi.net> <200711181641.12529.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071118145631.K35522@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Speaking of which, I recall seeing announcements every so often of floppy > drives that would have seriously more capacity than the usual stuff. > Something about "vertical format" sticks in my mind, though not much more > than that. Is this what that LS120 was all about? I think I ever only > encountered _one_ of those drives... IIRC, the 2.8M is vertical recording, with a Barium Ferrite diskette. (also called "4M" (unformatted capacity) by NeXT) If'n anybody wants to call it "2.88M", then multiply 2 * 80 * 36 * 512 and tell me exactly how many bytes are in your "megabyte"s. A lot of the increased capacity of LS120, ZIP, Drivetek, and Floptical came from cramming a LOT of tracks on the disk, requiring various servo systems, and generally a significant loss of reliability. It seems like a long time since I've seen a Bernoulli drive. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 18 17:24:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:24:28 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <01C829EF.EF3E01C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C829EF.EF3E01C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4740592C.15649.2A6439EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2007 at 14:32, M H Stein wrote: > Yeah, tell me about 100TPI; a couple of us with Vector Graphics are cursing > the day Micropolis came up with those; to top it off, they used hard sector > diskettes (Vector - the 8050 didn't care) so the disks are almost as scarce > as the drives... Micropolis floppy drives were very well-made. I wish that modern drives could be as well-built. All of mine are still operational. North Star, on the other hand, did some very oddball things with their kits. Such as supplying TO-99 ICs when they couldn't get the DIP-8 version. ("Just bend the leads, okay?"). Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 18 17:39:23 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:39:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <47404F39.28908.2A3D5BDD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <224941.61272.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Just curious. I know *files* can be compressed*, but are there any disk drives that compressed stuff before writing to disk, or do all drives simply just *do as they are told* to the disk. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk * At present I only know how RLE (aka RLC) and LZW compression works. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Nov 18 17:47:21 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:47:21 -0600 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071118174408.052f9450@mail.threedee.com> At 04:52 PM 11/18/2007, Richard wrote: >I was under the impression that most of it was shredded before being >shipped there, since you were able to ship it more efficiently that >way. In the pictures for that sort of newspaper article, you'll often seen someone burning a circuit board or chipping away at a monitor. I don't think it's all shredded before shipment. Overall, I think you'd do far better without a passport by setting up relationships with the computer recycling "asset management" type places. Even here in the middle of nowhere, the county government organizes a semi-annual pickup of electronics for recycling. There are big, big companies that do nothing but process old computers. They certainly harvest the "good" stuff, for varying definitions of "good". I'm not convinced they known how to pick out the true classic stuff, but then again, does it really have greater value than a contemporary laptop? - John From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 18 17:52:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:52:18 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071118145631.K35522@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03>, <200711181641.12529.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20071118145631.K35522@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47405FB2.22603.2A7DB35C@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2007 at 15:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > A lot of the increased capacity of LS120, ZIP, Drivetek, and Floptical > came from cramming a LOT of tracks on the disk, requiring various servo > systems, and generally a significant loss of reliability. > It seems like a long time since I've seen a Bernoulli drive. I've still got a 150MB dual unit--it does weigh quite a bit. The remarkable thing about the Bernoilli drives to me was the method of providing a stable air bearing between the head and the flexible disk by applying a positive air pressure to the surface of the disk. It brought to mind the illustration used involving a playing card, a pin and a thread spool. Push the pin though the card and use it to center the card over one end of the spool. Initially holding the card close to the spool, blow through the opposite end of the spool and then release the card. Instead of flying off, the card remains attracted to the spool as long as one keeps blowing. Bernoilli drives weren't much different in principle. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Nov 18 17:31:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:31:32 +0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20071118233132.GA1472@usap.gov> On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 10:11:14PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > It's been a long time since I used one of these 'in anger' but wasn't > there an issue witch copying one of the random-access file types between > disks? (or maye between disks in different drive units). If I'm > rememebring correctly, it means the converting between 4040 and 8050 > disks is a pain even if you haev both drive units . My recollection is that in general, CBM DOS "relative" files weren't particularly portable from DOS version to DOS version. I think you had to understand the record structure and copy them one record at a time. I think you might have been able to copy relative files from one diskette to another in the same drive unit, but I never tried it, so that's a faint memory and mere speculation. Real "random-access" files weren't really supported under CBM DOS - games like Zork that did do random access across the disc used their own schemes and just marked the used blocks as unavailable to CBM DOS. Your code just did block-reads and block-writes and ignored the directory track, typically. I did work a little with relative files with a C-64 and a 1541, but I think that 99% of what I ran across were sequential files (executable code, picture files, music files, source...) Those are easy to copy. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Nov-2007 at 23:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -42.2 F (-41.2 C) Windchill -64.8 F (-53.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.6 kts Grid 79 Barometer 685.4 mb (10425 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Nov 18 17:57:22 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:57:22 -0800 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4740D162.9030005@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > I was under the impression that most of it was shredded before being > shipped there, since you were able to ship it more efficiently that > way. At the Surplus Exchange in Kansas City, they fill the containers, though not with much care of the condition of the equipment. They did totally destroy such equipment as 360's and 370's that unfortunately went thru there before I ever was able to find out about what they had had there. I think such as what was sold from Chile in the last 2 or 3 years is what you will find in China, which was just bits and pieces. Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 18:06:19 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:06:19 -0500 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071118174408.052f9450@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20071118174408.052f9450@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: > In the pictures for that sort of newspaper article, you'll often > seen someone burning a circuit board or chipping away at a monitor. > I don't think it's all shredded before shipment. Circuit boards are rarely just burned these days. Many places are turning to a method where a blade shaves off all the components, and then shreds the boards. This gets rid of a lot of the non-copper metals from the board. Boards are shredded very finely, ideally so the particles are so fine that the metal and substrate are completely separated. The substrate is then simply skimmed away from the much heavier copper. The shaved off parts are treated in a similar process, but obviously more complex, due to the higher number of materials involved. And monitors are worth a whole bunch more intact than broken. Ever wonder why you can get a color TV these days so cheap? Think about it. Once again, newspaper articles with BAD information. Often tree-hugger organizations feed them information that is 20 years old, when the Chinese scrapyards were truely hell holes. Times have changed. The Chinese figured out long ago that the old ways just burn up money. And the Chinese like money. As far as shredding is concerned - many times it is done to "qualify" for a certificate of destruction. Sometimes shredding gets in the way of the scrapping process, actually, where manual disassembly is still more effective. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 18:09:33 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:09:33 -0500 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? In-Reply-To: <4740D162.9030005@msm.umr.edu> References: <4740D162.9030005@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > At the Surplus Exchange in Kansas City, they fill the containers, though > not with much care > of the condition of the equipment. Yes, when I saw the scrappers fill containers from Compass, they just stuck the stuff in any way it would fit - with the better scrap buried the deepest. I fear that the good stuff that does go to China - and really, it would break your hearts - gets very trashed in the process. The best way to get the stuff out of the scrap stream is to be at the spring. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 18 18:19:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:19:12 -0800 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? In-Reply-To: References: , <6.2.3.4.2.20071118174408.052f9450@mail.threedee.com>, Message-ID: <47406600.1329.2A965525@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2007 at 19:06, William Donzelli wrote: > Circuit boards are rarely just burned these days. Many places are > turning to a method where a blade shaves off all the components... How do the Chinese resellers of IC "pulls" get their stock? Is there a high-tech process for that also? Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 18 21:18:10 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:18:10 -0500 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives Message-ID: <01C82A31.15EA4D60@MSE_D03> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:24:28 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: "intelligent" disk drives >Micropolis floppy drives were very well-made. I wish that modern >drives could be as well-built. All of mine are still operational. >Cheers, >Chuck ----------- Ummm... well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion... I congratulate (and envy) you! ;-) m From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 18 21:44:33 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:44:33 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <47401669.29022.295F714E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F57C0.63.2676A885@cclist.sydex.com>, <474061B1.7010406@hawkmountain.net> <47401669.29022.295F714E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > On 18 Nov 2007 at 11:00, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > >> 3 large chips on the FDC board... >> >> N8X305I >> N8X330N >> N8X320N >> > > Signetics bipolar microcontroller stuff. Very interesting in that the > 8x330 is used--it's the floppy controller of the series; you don't > run across them very much. It's designed to interface with the 8x300 > series and nothing else. > > The 8x320 is the register array usually used to interface the 8x300 > to external systems. You should probably find some bipolar RAM and > ROM there also as well as some I/O ports (8T32/8T36). > > What makes this unusual is that it's found on an 8085 system with > 5.25" floppies rather than a traditional MOS FDC. Were this only for > floppies, this definitely would have been a ridiculously expensive > implementation for the time (and power-hungry). However, I wonder if > that board doesn't also have a hard disk interface connector (e.g. > SA4000) which would have been right for the time--and made sense. > > Is there an EPROM for the 8085 on the main board? If so, have you > dumped it? It might clinch the identification. > It sure would be overkill unless it was to be used with some non-standard format. If there are some WD chips on the board, it might be a combination board as you suggest. Still I suspect a special format. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.? Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Nov 18 22:47:32 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:47:32 -0500 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F57C0.63.2676A885@cclist.sydex.com>, <474061B1.7010406@hawkmountain.net> <47401669.29022.295F714E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47411564.9070104@hawkmountain.net> dwight elvey wrote: >> From: cclist at sydex.com >> On 18 Nov 2007 at 11:00, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> >> >>> 3 large chips on the FDC board... >>> >>> N8X305I >>> N8X330N >>> N8X320N >>> >>> >> Signetics bipolar microcontroller stuff. Very interesting in that the >> 8x330 is used--it's the floppy controller of the series; you don't >> run across them very much. It's designed to interface with the 8x300 >> series and nothing else. >> >> The 8x320 is the register array usually used to interface the 8x300 >> to external systems. You should probably find some bipolar RAM and >> ROM there also as well as some I/O ports (8T32/8T36). >> >> What makes this unusual is that it's found on an 8085 system with >> 5.25" floppies rather than a traditional MOS FDC. Were this only for >> floppies, this definitely would have been a ridiculously expensive >> implementation for the time (and power-hungry). However, I wonder if >> that board doesn't also have a hard disk interface connector (e.g. >> SA4000) which would have been right for the time--and made sense. >> >> Is there an EPROM for the 8085 on the main board? If so, have you >> dumped it? It might clinch the identification. >> >> > > > It sure would be overkill unless it was to be used with some > non-standard format. If there are some WD chips on the > board, it might be a combination board as you suggest. > Still I suspect a special format. > Dwight > > > The FDC board has two 34 pin connectors... labelled 0 and 1. One connector for each of the two floppy drives. I thought that a perculiar arrangement, as one connector should be able to support 2 to 4 drives. Both floppy drives are configured as drive 0. No other (HD) connectors on the floppy interface board. As for the boot rom, my EPROM programmer hasn't been hooked up in some time, so I don't have a quick and easy means to dump it at the moment. It has a label "BOOT V1.1" on it... but not like that is particularly 'descriptive' I'm sure if enough internal information was available, this could be made into a small general purpose computer... it has enough guts... a type of display, an FDC interface, 128K of memory, a CPU, etc... but w/o the keyboard, and w/o those docs... pretty much I'd imagine it would be a difficult proposition (one that even with those docs I'd imagine would not really be worth the effort). Too bad it wasn't a computer that ran an OS like CP/M or something... when I get the pics up somewhere I'll post a URL.... I really admire it's funky 'old' look. -- Curt > > _________________________________________________________________ > Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate. Join in. > www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline > From brain at jbrain.com Sun Nov 18 22:49:19 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:49:19 -0600 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071118224131.GA24981@usap.gov> References: <006c01c82a31$863f5240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20071118224131.GA24981@usap.gov> Message-ID: <474115CF.60405@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 10:22:36PM -0000, Ensor wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >....I think he was joking, of course, given the >> >horrendous bottlenecks in its software and its bus >> >protocol. >> >> To be fair, the only thing wrong with the CBM serial bus was the speed it >> ran at....or rather the lack of it.... >> > > Indeed. There's a well-documented saga of how the bit-serialization was > supposed to be done in hardware, but could not due to bugs with the interface > chip. IIRC, it was a CB2 problem with the 6522 VIAs on the 1540 drive and > the on the VIC-20 (the first machine to use the CBM serial bus). IIRC, the > problem was fixed with the 6526 CIAs, but the moment had passed. > Have fun: (From Commodore Trivia 8) Q $07B) When the VIC-20 was designed, the serial port throughput was roughly equivalent to the throughput of the IEEE-488 bus? Why isn't it very fast in production VICs? A $07B) Let's go back to question $04F: Q $04F) What was the primary reason Commodore went to a serial bus with the introduction of the VIC-20? A $04F) Jim Butterfield supplied me with this one: As you know, the first Commodore computers used the IEEE bus to connect to peripherals such as disk and printer. I understand that these were available only from one source: Belden cables. A couple of years into Commodore's computer career, Belden went out of stock on such cables (military contract? who knows?). In any case, Commodore were in quite a fix: they made computers and disk drives, but couldn't hook 'em together! So Tramiel issued the order: "On our next computer, get off that bus. Make it a cable anyone can manufacture". And so, starting with the VIC-20 the serial bus was born. It was intended to be just as fast as the IEEE-488 it replaced. And here is what Jim Butterfield followed up with: "Technically, the idea was sound: the 6522 VIA chip has a "shift register" circuit that, if tickled with the right signals (data and clock) will cheerfully collect 8 bits of data without any help from the CPU. At that time, it would signal that it had a byte to be collected, and the processor would do so, using an automatic handshake built into the 6522 to trigger the next incoming byte. Things worked in a similar way outgoing from the computer, too. We early PET/CBM freaks knew, from playing music, that there was something wrong with the 6522's shift register: it interfered with other functions. The rule was: turn off the music before you start the tape! (The shift register was a popular sound generator). But the Commodore engineers, who only made the chip, didn't know this. Until they got into final checkout of the VIC-20. By this time, the VIC-20 board was in manufacture. A new chip could be designed in a few months (yes, the silicon guys had application notes about the problem, long since), but it was TOO LATE! A major software rewrite had to take place that changed the VIC-20 into a "bit-catcher" rather than a "character-catcher". It called for eight times as much work on the part of the CPU; and unlike the shift register plan, there was no timing/handshake slack time. The whole thing slowed down by a factor of approximately 5 to 6. When the 64 came out, the problem VIA 6522 chip had been replaced by the CIA 6526. This did not have the shift register problem which had caused trouble on the VIC-20, and at that time it would have been possible to restore plan 1, a fast serial bus. Note that this would have called for a redesign of the 1540 disk drive, which also used a VIA. As best I can estimate - and an article in the IEEE Spectrum magazine supports this - the matter was discussed within Commodore, and it was decided that VIC-20 compatibility was more important than disk speed. Perhaps the prospect of a 1541 redesign was an important part of the decision, since current inventories needed to be taken into account. But to keep the Commodore 64 as a "bit-banger", a new problem arose. The higher-resolution screen of the 64 (as compared to the VIC-20) could not be supported without stopping the CPU every once in a while. To be exact: Every 8 screen raster lines (each line of text), the CPU had to be put into a WAIT condition for 42 microseconds, so as to allow the next line of screen text and color nybbles to be swept into the chip.(More time would be needed if sprites were being used). But the bits were coming in on the serial bus faster than that: a bit would come in about every 20 microseconds! So the poor CPU, frozen for longer than that, would miss some serial bits completely! Commodore's solution was to slow down the serial bus even more. That's why the VIC-20 has a faster serial bus than the 64, even though the 64 was capable, technically, of running many times faster. Fast disk finally came into its own with the Commodore 128." --Jim From brain at jbrain.com Sun Nov 18 22:51:43 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:51:43 -0600 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071118233132.GA1472@usap.gov> References: <01C82976.19E6E060@MSE_D03> <20071118233132.GA1472@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4741165F.4060808@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 10:11:14PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > >> It's been a long time since I used one of these 'in anger' but wasn't >> there an issue witch copying one of the random-access file types between >> disks? (or maye between disks in different drive units). If I'm >> rememebring correctly, it means the converting between 4040 and 8050 >> disks is a pain even if you haev both drive units . >> > > My recollection is that in general, CBM DOS "relative" files weren't > particularly portable from DOS version to DOS version. I think you > had to understand the record structure and copy them one record at > a time. I think you might have been able to copy relative files from > one diskette to another in the same drive unit, but I never tried it, > so that's a faint memory and mere speculation. > 4040 and 2031 REL files were portable to 1540/1541/1571 if one simply read the records and wrote them out. Writing it sector by sector probably would have worked as well, but I have not done research. 8050 and on up (8250, SFD, etc.) use Super Side sectors, which made sector copies impossible, and I think record copies only possible if the number of records was under a sertain limit. As I recall the 1581 used an entirely different scheme for REL files, so all bets are probably off on that unit. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 18 23:23:39 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:23:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: VAXmate for Windows Message-ID: I have seven 5.25" floppies labeled as RX33K which contain: VAXmate MS-Windows v1.03 (two disks) VAXmate Info System v1.1 VT240 Emulator Update VAXmate S/A Install v1.1 VAXmate MS-DOS v3.10 All of these are labeled "For VAXmate operating environment v1.1". I don't remember where it came from, but there's been some recent talk about VAXen. Who wants these? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 19 00:54:12 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:54:12 -0800 Subject: VAXmate for Windows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:23 PM -0800 11/18/07, David Griffith wrote: >I have seven 5.25" floppies labeled as RX33K which contain: > >VAXmate MS-Windows v1.03 (two disks) >VAXmate Info System v1.1 >VT240 Emulator Update >VAXmate S/A Install v1.1 >VAXmate MS-DOS v3.10 > >All of these are labeled "For VAXmate operating environment v1.1". > >I don't remember where it came from, but there's been some recent talk >about VAXen. Who wants these? I assume these will only run on a VAXmate? I've only seen one VAXmate and that was nearly 10 years ago. How good was the VT240 emulation? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 19 01:24:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:24:26 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <47401669.29022.295F714E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4740C9AA.6647.2C1BA013@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2007 at 19:44, dwight elvey wrote: >> It sure would be overkill unless it was to be used with some > non-standard format. If there are some WD chips on the > board, it might be a combination board as you suggest. > Still I suspect a special format. Probably so, considering that there's no hard disk interface there. The 8x330 was one of the very few LSI controllers to do M2FM--that's likely the reason it was used here. Cheers, Chuck From wpileggi at juno.com Mon Nov 19 01:24:22 2007 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:24:22 GMT Subject: IBM PC boards offered Message-ID: <20071119.022422.22974.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> Anyone interested in the following boards? If so, please email ME and make arrangements for shipping or pickup. Bill/KA3AIS Hard Card - hard disk mounted on 8 bit ISA card with controller. BSM Karddisk 20 (presumably 20 Mb.). AST RAMpage AT=Pak. "Turns your 2MB expanded memory board into a full featured multifunction product". Looks like daughter-card with manual in generic AST box. INTEL Aboveboard/PC boxed. 256kb. >> 2Mb. CGA card with composite connector RCA phono jack. 8 bit ISA. Columbia Data products. Everex Color/Monochrome card. Dual 9 pin connectors + composite RCA phono connector - switch selected. 8 bit ISA. Compaq PLUS Luggable computer...Built-in 9 inch monitor, 5.25 inch floppy, HDD. Very Dirty. _____________________________________________________________ Click now for low cost, approved defensive driving courses! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieYCwbKw0PVYD4ROXPC8VNfhTtmspmWFIgC2b31cjO8IRRHQ/ From wpileggi at juno.com Mon Nov 19 01:25:59 2007 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:25:59 GMT Subject: Compaq PLUS luggable computer offered Message-ID: <20071119.022559.22974.2@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> Anyone interested in this unit? Please email ME and make arrangements for pickup or shipping. Bill/KA3AIS Compaq PLUS Luggable computer...Built-in 9 inch monitor, 5.25 inch floppy, HDD. Very Dirty. _____________________________________________________________ Click to learn about options trading and how to make more money from the pros. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifU9d9smPnJ04sgcu5i2BolMFVfQVoYjLAZhbe1tasvLORw6/ From sachaturgeon at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 01:49:27 2007 From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.com (Sacha Turgeon) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:49:27 +0000 Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:38:30 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. bcw at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: bcw at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:37:45 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:34:57 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. bill at booster.u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: bill at booster.u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:34:56 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:33:10 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. classiccmp at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: classiccmp at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:33:02 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:29:49 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. listproc at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: listproc at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:29:48 +0000 UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comRemoves you from the list. Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! _________________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120 From sachaturgeon at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 01:49:22 2007 From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.com (Sacha Turgeon) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:49:22 +0000 Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:38:30 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. bcw at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: bcw at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:37:45 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:34:57 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. bill at booster.u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: bill at booster.u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:34:56 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:33:10 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. classiccmp at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: classiccmp at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:33:02 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:29:49 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. listproc at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: listproc at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:29:48 +0000 UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comRemoves you from the list. Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! _________________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120 From sachaturgeon at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 01:49:22 2007 From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.com (Sacha Turgeon) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:49:22 +0000 Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:38:30 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. bcw at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: bcw at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:37:45 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:34:57 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. bill at booster.u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: bill at booster.u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:34:56 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:33:10 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. classiccmp at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: classiccmp at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:33:02 +0000 From: postmaster at mail.hotmail.comTo: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:29:49 -0800Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. listproc at u.washington.edu --Pi?ce jointe du message transmise--From: sachaturgeon at hotmail.comTo: listproc at u.washington.eduSubject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comDate: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:29:48 +0000 UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon at hotmail.comRemoves you from the list. Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! _________________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120 From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Nov 19 01:50:45 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:50:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple Lisa Handbook Message-ID: This cat Michael Posner compiled a book called, "The Apple Lisa Handbook". He's an attorney by day and a geek by night. The introduction is amusing: "In the beginning there was this: 'c:\', and it was hard. But there was an answer, and it came from.....Xerox, yes Xerox. And one day Steve Jobs came to Xerox and said, 'This is great'. So Steve went back to Apple and said, let there be Lisa (allegedly his young daughter out of wedlock). And Apple labored for three years and then (without Steve, who was now raising a pirate flag over at the Macintosh Group) there was Lisa. And Lisa was cool, like no other computer ever made, before or since. But Apple lost heart and Lisa was discontinued. This hurt many people (especially those with vision and a wallet $10,000 lighter). But Lisa lives for those dedicated users. This book is dedicated to them." It's a compilation of articles and announcements from various sources including notes from Apple and magazine reviews. It has a History of Lisa section in chapter one, and includes repair and maintenance tips (towards the middle). It also has an interesting note about Lisa 1 upgrades to the Lisa 2, info I've never seen before: "Upgrades from Lisa 1.0 *To Lisa 2/5, free until June 1, 1984, $595 thereafter *To Lisa 2/10, $2495 until June 1, 1984, $2795 thereafter" The Lisa was announced in January of 1983, so this gives us a small datapoint as to when the upgrades occured (or didn't). Here's an interesting bit: "Sun Remarketing specializes in selling discontinued Apple hardware. It is the only major provider of systems and support for the installed base of 77,000 Lisas." So there were 77,000 Lisas out in the wild according to this. If correct then it was not a very rare machine by any stretch of the imagination (I literally got like 8 in one haul one time, which was distributed between several people) but they are certainly less common these days, now that all the collector's have bought them up. I wonder how many Lisa 1's sold? And then how many were upgraded to Lisa 2's? I wonder if that data still exists at Apple? I like the sell Apple in the product discontinuation letter on page 3. One section has some comments from a CompuServe forum. This one is interesting: "Sb: #121368-#Apple Drops Lisa? 05-Nov-84 18:21:55 I got my INFOWORLD last week and indeed there was a random rumor (not Dvorak) indicating that they heard from a reliable source inside Apple that Apple will drop the Lisa line in '85. Since I got my Lisa in August this year I've been very happy, but now I'm worried. I bought an IMSAI a few months before they dropped their S-100 machine, and she's still working. But it is annoying! Any info would be greatly appreciated." Ah, the good old days, when a juxtaposition between an Apple Lisa and an IMSAI 8080 was normal. Here's a really interesting tidbit: "Infocorp's Gilman estimates that the easy to use computer that inspired Lisa's development--the two year old Xerox 'Star'--has had total sales of only 2,400 units so far. But the Star has only some of Lisa's features and initially costs customers $50,000, or five times as much as Lisa, he points out. Nevertheless, 'because Apple is changing its product and its customer base with Lisa, I would expect it to get of to a slow start,' predicts E. David Crockett, a computer industry analyst at Dataquest, Inc." Wow, I didn't know the Xerox 8010 cost $50K when new. 2,400 units sold by 1983. I would say there are not that many 8010's out there based on this. They are more scarce than I thought. Read Larry Tesler's post-mortem on page 51. Really net. Anyway, an interesting read. Worth spending a few minutes going through it. BTW, check out the author's other interests: http://www.mjposner.com/ He seems to be a pretty interesting guy. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cc at corti-net.de Mon Nov 19 03:54:04 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:54:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Even later, there was the 9153 (floppy/winchester) and 9154 (winchester > only) unit. Again 98B09 based, but now everything in SMD packages (the > 68B09 is a PLCC package). The winchesters are HP custom units with a > strange interface -- fairly high level for positioning the heads, but > still the raw bit stream for reading and writing. Recently the drive in my HP 7958A unit failed (it was a Micropolis 1355) and I've replaced the drive with another ESDI drive. The 7958A contains a 68B09 (I guess) and a NatSemi DP8466 disk data controller. I had to find a way to lowlevel format the drive so that the firmware of the 7958A wouldn't fault after power-on and so I have disassembled the firmware. There are three documented options to the Init Media command (0=keep all spares, 1=keep only primary spares, 2=keep no spares) which all wouldn't correctly lowlevel format the drive. The firmware needs additional tracks (called maintenance tracks) at the beginning and at the end of the disk. By disassembling I've found out that there is another option 3 which will work as option 2 but also format the maintenance tracks. So here we go: replace the HDA (in my case I took a CDC WREN IV), attach the 7958A to an HP box (HP 9000/840 with HP-IB) and call mediainit in guru mode and pass it the initialize option 3. The command terminates after a while, and after power-cycling the drive the firmware will pass all self-tests now! The self-tests contain read/write tests and ECC tests. BTW one can use ESDI drives with any capacity as the firmware will read the geometry information from the disk drive and setup its internal tables accordingly. You have to make sure to jumper the drive to hard sectored mode, 64 sectors/track! Christian From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 04:02:32 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:02:32 +0100 Subject: Apple Lisa Handbook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <310f50ab0711190202g4773dc22qafddc8539dcb6b11@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/19, Sellam Ismail : > > This cat Michael Posner compiled a book called, "The Apple Lisa Handbook". > Great find, thanks! From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 05:23:04 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:23:04 +0100 Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP sachaturgeon@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <310f50ab0711190323u6921cf9en1777f792188dc179@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/19, Sacha Turgeon : > > [..]Random junk noone should be subjected to[..] > Take it easy, amigo... From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 19 06:51:54 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:51:54 +0000 Subject: VAXmate for Windows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19/11/07 06:54, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 9:23 PM -0800 11/18/07, David Griffith wrote: >> I have seven 5.25" floppies labeled as RX33K which contain: >> >> VAXmate MS-Windows v1.03 (two disks) >> VAXmate Info System v1.1 >> VT240 Emulator Update >> VAXmate S/A Install v1.1 >> VAXmate MS-DOS v3.10 >> >> All of these are labeled "For VAXmate operating environment v1.1". >> >> I don't remember where it came from, but there's been some recent talk >> about VAXen. Who wants these? > > I assume these will only run on a VAXmate? I've only seen one > VAXmate and that was nearly 10 years ago. How good was the VT240 > emulation? I never tried the full graphics side of things on the emulator, but as a terminal it was great, a novelty in those days to have a black-on-amber display too! We have 2 VAXmates at Bletchley Park so if those floppies could wing their way across the pond that'd be great! I keep meaning to drag them out of their storage room and set at least one up to exhibit, we're building an Electronic Office exhibit that the VAXmate should be a part of really. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 19 07:43:50 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:43:50 -0500 Subject: Remembering the IBM PC | The Register Message-ID: <47419316.3070305@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/17/tob_ibm_personal_computer/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 19 08:45:44 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:45:44 -0600 Subject: Remembering the IBM PC | The Register In-Reply-To: <47419316.3070305@sbcglobal.net> References: <47419316.3070305@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4741A198.4090509@oldskool.org> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/17/tob_ibm_personal_computer/ While the link is appreciated, I counted at least 6 errors with the article before I stopped reading. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 09:07:06 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:07:06 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: <47411564.9070104@hawkmountain.net> References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F57C0.63.2676A885@cclist.sydex.com>, <474061B1.7010406@hawkmountain.net> <47401669.29022.295F714E@cclist.sydex.com> <47411564.9070104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:47:32 -0500 > From: rescue at hawkmountain.net > To: > Subject: Re: what the heck is it > > dwight elvey wrote: >>> From: cclist at sydex.com >>> On 18 Nov 2007 at 11:00, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>> >>> >>>> 3 large chips on the FDC board... >>>> >>>> N8X305I >>>> N8X330N >>>> N8X320N >>>> >>>> >>> Signetics bipolar microcontroller stuff. Very interesting in that the >>> 8x330 is used--it's the floppy controller of the series; you don't >>> run across them very much. It's designed to interface with the 8x300 >>> series and nothing else. >>> >>> The 8x320 is the register array usually used to interface the 8x300 >>> to external systems. You should probably find some bipolar RAM and >>> ROM there also as well as some I/O ports (8T32/8T36). >>> >>> What makes this unusual is that it's found on an 8085 system with >>> 5.25" floppies rather than a traditional MOS FDC. Were this only for >>> floppies, this definitely would have been a ridiculously expensive >>> implementation for the time (and power-hungry). However, I wonder if >>> that board doesn't also have a hard disk interface connector (e.g. >>> SA4000) which would have been right for the time--and made sense. >>> >>> Is there an EPROM for the 8085 on the main board? If so, have you >>> dumped it? It might clinch the identification. >>> >>> >> >> >> It sure would be overkill unless it was to be used with some >> non-standard format. If there are some WD chips on the >> board, it might be a combination board as you suggest. >> Still I suspect a special format. >> Dwight >> >> >> > > The FDC board has two 34 pin connectors... labelled 0 and 1. One > connector for each of the two floppy drives. I thought that a perculiar > arrangement, as one connector should be able to support 2 to 4 drives. > > Both floppy drives are configured as drive 0. > > No other (HD) connectors on the floppy interface board. Hi It is most likely was an unusual disk format. Chuck mentioned M2FM. This is quite likely. Many of these special purpose machines had their original software developed on MDS800's. At the time, double density disk formats hadn't been tied down and M2FM was as likely as any of them. They most likely had some previous machine with this format and wanted to keep this format for compatability. I'd think it would still be worth bringing up CP/M on it. There are a few people that have M2FM on their MDS800's that could help. The keyboard is most likely a parallel type as well. It would be a chalanging project but the amount learned would make it worth the time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 09:34:53 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:34:53 -0800 Subject: unusual on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <473F57C0.63.2676A885@cclist.sydex.com>, <474061B1.7010406@hawkmountain.net> <47401669.29022.295F714E@cclist.sydex.com> <47411564.9070104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: Hi I've just seen the first actual 1702 ( not 1702A ) on ebay. These are quite rare. I'll keep an eye on it to see if anyone notices it in the sea of other rare and vintage items. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From ray at arachelian.com Mon Nov 19 11:31:32 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:31:32 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa Handbook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4741C874.3070303@arachelian.com> It's a great read indeed. Some of the historical parts come from "West of Eden", which along with "The Little Kingdom" are well worth a read, but both are out of print. http://www.amazon.com/West-Eden-Innocence-Apple-Computer/dp/0140093729/ http://www.amazon.com/Little-Kingdom-Private-Story-Computer/dp/0688039731/ I've recently read this: http://www.amazon.com/The-Apple-Way/dp/B000JMKPE0/ The Apple Way by Jeffrey L. Cruikshank which opens up with a couple of pages about why the Lisa failed commercially. I'm not quite sure that I agree with all of the text there. Note that there isn't too much detail regarding the Lisa in this book. It's mostly about strategy. There's also a wealth of details about Lisa (and Mac) prices, hardware and software reviews and other stuff here: http://www.semaphorecorp.com/ss/toc.html This was the Semaphore Signal newsletter, which started out as a Lisa newsletter and moved on to the original Mac. (and of course my own FAQ: http://lisafaq.sunder.net - Michael's book is listed here: http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hs_book.html ) Some folks capitalize LISA, following the official Apple mantra, I don't - well, in some places even Apple itself uses "Lisa" and not "LISA". Yeah, it was supposed to be an acronym, but it was a tortured one at best (Local Integrated Software Architecture); if you look at the Lisa handwritten logo, the i,s, and a are lowercase, so there isn't much to the acronym except perhaps plausible deniability. :-) Michael's book does so in just the title. Sellam Ismail wrote: > This cat Michael Posner compiled a book called, "The Apple Lisa Handbook". > He's an attorney by day and a geek by night. > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 19 11:40:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:40:40 -0800 Subject: what the heck is it In-Reply-To: References: <4713D933.3010305@hawkmountain.net>, <47411564.9070104@hawkmountain.net>, Message-ID: <47415A18.16644.2E4FCF13@cclist.sydex.com> Regardless, if you do decide to gut the innards of the machine, I'd like to get the FDC board from you--I don't have an 8x330 in my FDC rogue's gallery and it'd be nice to have one just for completeness. Unlike other FDCs, this is one that must be linked with an 8x300 series microcontroller and firmware supplied by the customer. There's nothing "smart" about the 8x330. Even a 1771 looks like a savant compared to it. Cheers, Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Nov 19 12:54:49 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:54:49 -0500 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives Message-ID: <474195AA020000370001817D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Chuck wrote: >Micropolis floppy drives were very well-made. I wish that modern >drives could be as well-built. All of mine are still operational. I think that like CDC/Imprimis, Seagate, Shugart, etc., Micropolis built drives to different price points for different markets. The ones built for the mini and mainframe market in the late 80's/very early 90's are true tanks and stand up very solidly here 15 or 20 years later. But by the mid-late-90's when capacity was the craze I think that some industrial-duty Micropolis drives were a little too bleeding edge. The MFM ones built for PC-clones, however, seem to simply be "above average", which is pretty good but not stellar. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 19 13:34:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:34:49 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <474195AA020000370001817D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <474195AA020000370001817D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <474174D9.10384.2EB8538E@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2007 at 13:54, Tim Shoppa wrote: I was talking about floppy drives. I've owned Micropolis 5.25" hard drives but never liked them as much as Priam, Maxtor or even Miniscribe (before they started shipping bricks instead of hard drives, that is). I didn't think that Micropolis made floppy drives much past about 1985 or so. I've got a 1115-VI, circa 1983 and I believe there was an 1117, but I thought that was the end of the line in floppies. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 14:44:19 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:44:19 -0600 Subject: What CBM Monitor is this? Message-ID: <51ea77730711191244h70bda53ej4b280f04bd956b02@mail.gmail.com> I though I knew most of the CBM models, but I don't recognize this one: http://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=3167507 I wrote to the seller and he gave me a part# from the back which returns nothing in Google. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 19 14:51:39 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:51:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: VAXmate for Windows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Adrian Graham wrote: > I never tried the full graphics side of things on the emulator, but as a > terminal it was great, a novelty in those days to have a black-on-amber > display too! > > We have 2 VAXmates at Bletchley Park so if those floppies could wing their > way across the pond that'd be great! I keep meaning to drag them out of > their storage room and set at least one up to exhibit, we're building an > Electronic Office exhibit that the VAXmate should be a part of really. I didn't expect so much interest in these disks. I've gotten two private emails asking about them and now Bletchley Park. At the very least I ought to make images of these disks before sending them off to wherever they end up. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 15:52:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:52:22 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives Message-ID: > From: tshoppa at wmata.com > Chuck wrote: >>Micropolis floppy drives were very well-made. I wish that modern >>drives could be as well-built. All of mine are still operational. > > I think that like CDC/Imprimis, Seagate, Shugart, etc., Micropolis > built drives to different price points for different markets. > > The ones built for the mini and mainframe market in the late > 80's/very early 90's are true tanks and stand up very solidly > here 15 or 20 years later. > > But by the mid-late-90's when capacity was the craze I think that > some industrial-duty Micropolis drives were a little too bleeding > edge. > > The MFM ones built for PC-clones, however, seem to simply be "above > average", which is pretty good but not stellar. > > In the late 90's, we were using Micropolis drives in our HaL computers. Many wouldn't even finish our 24 Hour burn-in. When they were making choices as to which drive to use, I was surprised when I was told that they'd go with the Micropolis drive. By that time, they'd already earned a bad name. I was told that the decision was made, based on that fact that they would give us any engineering support we needed. I saw this as a red flag but the upper people didn't. I couldn't understand why we would need any support for something as mature as hard drives of the time. I suspect that bad marketing decisions were made at Micropolis, like the ones that were made at HaL. Engineering didn't have there act to gether before the products were in production. I've seen it happen at otherplaces. Schedule is king and at some point the engineers will just stand and nod their heads ( as they get their resumes ready ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 15:58:13 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:58:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Micropolis (was: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071119135640.N90458@shell.lmi.net> Micropolis made excellent floppy drives. It is too bad that their hard drives sucked. Did anybody ever use their OS? (bundled with some of their 5.25" floppy drives) From gklinger at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 16:09:20 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:09:20 -0500 Subject: What CBM Monitor is this? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711191244h70bda53ej4b280f04bd956b02@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730711191244h70bda53ej4b280f04bd956b02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That's a CM-141 which was styled to match the 264 series. It's technically equivalent to the 1701/1702/1802 and not particularly rare or valuable but certainly worth the $8 asking price. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 19 16:18:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:18:29 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47419B35.5409.2F4E28D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2007 at 13:52, dwight elvey wrote: > I suspect that bad marketing decisions were made at Micropolis, > like the ones that were made at HaL. Engineering didn't have there > act to gether before the products were in production. I've > seen it happen at otherplaces. Schedule is king and at some > point the engineers will just stand and nod their heads ( as > they get their resumes ready ). Well, at least they didn't ship you a brick when you ordered a hard drive... Cheers, Chuck (who actually likes Miniscribe drives much better than a lot of other old brands). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 19 16:47:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:47:29 -0700 Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <20071119135640.N90458@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071119135640.N90458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47421281.5080407@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > Micropolis made excellent floppy drives. It is too bad that their hard > drives sucked. > Did anybody ever use their OS? (bundled with some of their 5.25" floppy > drives) Never heard of that. I just can't remember what drives I seen used around 1990 but I do know the hacked into to DOS to give you very large drives for the time. I think 8K sectors rather than 512 sectors under standard DOS. Ben alias woodelf. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 16:59:10 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:59:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <47421281.5080407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20071119135640.N90458@shell.lmi.net> <47421281.5080407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20071119145317.M92219@shell.lmi.net> > > Micropolis made excellent floppy drives. It is too bad that their hard > > drives sucked. > > Did anybody ever use their OS? (bundled with some of their 5.25" floppy > > drives) On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, woodelf wrote: > Never heard of that. It came in a white loose-leaf binder, with 5.25" floppy disk in 1979 > I just can't remember what drives I seen used around 1990 > but I do know the hacked into to DOS to give you very large drives for the time. > I think 8K sectors rather than 512 sectors under standard DOS. Changing the sector size was one of the simplest ways to get around some of the DOS size limits. For example, MS-DOS through version 3.30 was limited to a maximum of 65,536 sectors on a logical drive (which is the source of the 32MB limit) The 2GB limit was due to MICROS~1 using a signed, rather than unsigned, long integer. 'Course that did make it possible to have a file with -2147483648 bytes :-) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 19 17:09:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:09:25 -0800 Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <47421281.5080407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <20071119135640.N90458@shell.lmi.net>, <47421281.5080407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4741A725.3754.2F7CCCC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2007 at 15:47, woodelf wrote: > > Did anybody ever use their OS? (bundled with some of their 5.25" floppy > > drives) > Never heard of that. I just can't remember what drives I seen used around 1990 > but I do know the hacked into to DOS to give you very large drives for the time. > I think 8K sectors rather than 512 sectors under standard DOS. I remember seeing it, but not having the time or inclination to check it out. Lots of vendors were increasing the block size in MS-DOS to support large partitions around the same time. The problem was that it broke a lot of things (many utilities expected 512 byte sectors and got very upset (i.e. crashed) if things were otherwise) and was hideously inefficient for small files. An approach that some used was to employ the DOS network redirector and implement a private filesystem on the large drive and map it as a network drive, which seems to work a bit better. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 17:02:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:02:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071118145631.K35522@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 18, 7 03:24:37 pm Message-ID: > IIRC, the 2.8M is vertical recording, with a Barium Ferrite diskette. > (also called "4M" (unformatted capacity) by NeXT) > If'n anybody wants to call it "2.88M", then multiply 2 * 80 * 36 * 512 > and tell me exactly how many bytes are in your "megabyte"s. Since that's esactly twice the capacity of a MS-DOS format HD 3.5" disk (36 sectors/track as against 18), I assume the answer to your quesiton is 1024000 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 16:59:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:59:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <4740592C.15649.2A6439EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 18, 7 03:24:28 pm Message-ID: > > North Star, on the other hand, did some very oddball things with > their kits. Such as supplying TO-99 ICs when they couldn't get the > DIP-8 version. ("Just bend the leads, okay?"). It's easier to do that than the reverse. I rememer having to replace a metal-can (10 lead TO-100 I think) uA723 regulator chip. The only one I could get wsa the 14 pin DIL version. I eneded up dead-bugging it to the PCB and using kludgewires... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 17:13:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:13:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Nov 19, 7 10:54:04 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > Even later, there was the 9153 (floppy/winchester) and 9154 (winchester > > only) unit. Again 98B09 based, but now everything in SMD packages (the > > 68B09 is a PLCC package). The winchesters are HP custom units with a > > strange interface -- fairly high level for positioning the heads, but > > still the raw bit stream for reading and writing. > > Recently the drive in my HP 7958A unit failed (it was a Micropolis 1355) > and I've replaced the drive with another ESDI drive. The 7958A contains a > 68B09 (I guess) and a NatSemi DP8466 disk data controller. Interesting. I'd momentaarily forgotten aout the ESDI drive units. I haev one (I forget the model numbnr), I am darn sure it's an ESDI drive both from looking at it and from reading the boardswapper guide. But the controller oard is mostly custom HP chips, along with some RAM, an EPROM, and, of course, the 68B09. Even the HPIB chip is HP (the 1TL1 'Medusa' chip). The drive is also HP. I am pretty use it's not based on a Micropolis unit, either... > BTW one can use ESDI drives with any capacity as the firmware will read > the geometry information from the disk drive and setup its internal tables > accordingly. You have to make sure to jumper the drive to hard sectored > mode, 64 sectors/track! That's well worth knowing. I am pretty sure the ST412-based units, which of course can't read the drive geometry from the drive hardware, have tables in ROM of the allowable geometries (link-selected o nthe controller board) and check it against the drive at power-on (try selecting non-existant heads, etc). Which means if you put in a larger drive the darn thing will fualt and a low-level format won't fix it, even though you only want to use the original capacity of the drive. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 17:37:04 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> > > IIRC, the 2.8M is vertical recording, with a Barium Ferrite diskette. > > (also called "4M" (unformatted capacity) by NeXT) > > If'n anybody wants to call it "2.88M", then multiply 2 * 80 * 36 * 512 > > and tell me exactly how many bytes are in your "megabyte"s. On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Since that's esactly twice the capacity of a MS-DOS format HD 3.5" disk > (36 sectors/track as against 18), I assume the answer to your quesiton is > 1024000 I don't think that there is any question that 102400 is a totally indefensible, irresponsible, and ridiculous number for defining a "Megabyte". From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 19 17:43:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC boards offered In-Reply-To: <20071119.022422.22974.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <221865.58884.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> interested in the cards mostly Bill... --- Bill Pileggi wrote: > Anyone interested in the following boards? If so, > please email ME and make arrangements for shipping > or pickup. Bill/KA3AIS > > Hard Card - hard disk mounted on 8 bit ISA card with > controller. BSM Karddisk 20 (presumably 20 Mb.). > > AST RAMpage AT=Pak. "Turns your 2MB expanded memory > board into a full featured multifunction product". > Looks like daughter-card with manual in generic AST > box. > > INTEL Aboveboard/PC boxed. 256kb. >> 2Mb. > > CGA card with composite connector RCA phono jack. 8 > bit ISA. Columbia Data products. > > Everex Color/Monochrome card. Dual 9 pin connectors > + composite RCA phono connector - switch selected. 8 > bit ISA. > > Compaq PLUS Luggable computer...Built-in 9 inch > monitor, 5.25 inch floppy, HDD. Very Dirty. > > _____________________________________________________________ > Click now for low cost, approved defensive driving > courses! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieYCwbKw0PVYD4ROXPC8VNfhTtmspmWFIgC2b31cjO8IRRHQ/ > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 18:16:13 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC boards offered In-Reply-To: <20071119.022422.22974.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> References: <20071119.022422.22974.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <20071119161505.I98276@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Bill Pileggi wrote: > AST RAMpage AT=Pak. "Turns your 2MB expanded memory board into a full featured multifunction product". Looks like daughter-card with manual in generic AST box. > INTEL Aboveboard/PC boxed. 256kb. >> 2Mb. On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Want To Buy: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board > Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB > and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 19 19:00:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:00:33 -0800 Subject: IBM PC boards offered In-Reply-To: <20071119161505.I98276@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071119.022422.22974.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com>, <20071119161505.I98276@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4741C131.9623.2FE289C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2007 at 16:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Bill Pileggi wrote: > > AST RAMpage AT=Pak. "Turns your 2MB expanded memory board into a full featured multifunction product". Looks like daughter-card with manual in generic AST box. > > INTEL Aboveboard/PC boxed. 256kb. >> 2Mb. > > On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Want To Buy: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board > > Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB > > and will work with a "plane Jane" 286. 'Sokay, Fred, I've got me an Aboveboard 286 already. Thanks just the same. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 19 19:24:13 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:24:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> We've all seen different varieties of 8088 to 80286 upgrades. A few at least plug into the 8088's socket. I saw a '286 to '486 upgrade (must have been similar in that respect) at a show a while back (didn't buy it). We also know about OverDrive products. What would happen if you pig-piled all these things in an old 8088 machines? What would happen? Cataclysmic explosion? Were there ever 8086 to 80286 upgrades for the few machines that used them? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 19 19:36:42 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:36:42 -0500 Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <20071119145317.M92219@shell.lmi.net> References: <47421281.5080407@jetnet.ab.ca> <20071119145317.M92219@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711192036.42316.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 19 November 2007 17:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > The 2GB limit was due to MICROS~1 using a signed, rather than unsigned, > long integer. 'Course that did make it possible to have a file with > -2147483648 bytes :-) Having bumped into that limit at times, it made next to zero sense to me that some programmer couldn't take the trouble to type "unsigned" in front of "int" for that particular bit of code... Grr! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 19:50:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:50:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071119174816.I98276@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > We've all seen different varieties of 8088 to 80286 > upgrades. A few at least plug into the 8088's socket. > I saw a '286 to '486 upgrade (must have been similar > in that respect) at a show a while back (didn't buy > it). We also know about OverDrive products. What would > happen if you pig-piled all these things in an old > 8088 machines? What would happen? Cataclysmic > explosion? You would simply have the slowest, least compatible, and least reliable modern machine available. 4.77MHz 640K Pentium Core 2 Duo? From grant at stockly.com Mon Nov 19 19:52:59 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:52:59 -0900 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JRS00GID7W6F1B0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 04:24 PM 11/19/2007, you wrote: >We've all seen different varieties of 8088 to 80286 >upgrades. A few at least plug into the 8088's socket. >I saw a '286 to '486 upgrade (must have been similar >in that respect) at a show a while back (didn't buy >it). We also know about OverDrive products. What would >happen if you pig-piled all these things in an old >8088 machines? What would happen? Cataclysmic >explosion? > Were there ever 8086 to 80286 upgrades for the few >machines that used them? I'd like to know that... The Overdrive will run XP at 8MHz. It would be fun to see an 8088 booting XP. : ) Grant From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 19:54:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:54:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <200711192036.42316.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <47421281.5080407@jetnet.ab.ca> <20071119145317.M92219@shell.lmi.net> <200711192036.42316.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071119175143.Q98276@shell.lmi.net> > > The 2GB limit was due to MICROS~1 using a signed, rather than unsigned, > > long integer. 'Course that did make it possible to have a file with > > -2147483648 bytes :-) On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Having bumped into that limit at times, it made next to zero sense to me that > some programmer couldn't take the trouble to type "unsigned" in front > of "int" for that particular bit of code... > Grr! 1) "That number (2147483647) is soo big that nobody would ever need more than that!" 2) Some of the earlier compilers didn't have an "unsigned long int" 3) What happens if you copy a -2G file to an otherwise almost full disk? From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Nov 19 19:59:25 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:59:25 -0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I don't think that there is any question that 102400 is >a totally indefensible, irresponsible, and ridiculous number >for defining a "Megabyte". You're quite right, the actual number is "1048576" or 1024KB. But that's not your point is it? Whilst I agree that "going decimal" is easier to understand for the average "man in the street", at the end of the day, the *ONLY* reason that hard drive manufacturers have gone to using 1000 instead of 1024 when calculating sizes is that it artificially makes the drives seem bigger. Or, in other words, it's pure marketing! Point in case, I have a "200GB" Maxtor drive in this machine, which is *actually* a 186GB drive. Both sizes are quite correct depending on your definition of "Kilo", "Mega" etc. Since computers operate in binary, it makes *VASTLY* more sense for "Kilo" to be defined as 1024 than 1000 (2^10) etc. Most operating systems I've used tend to agree.... TTFN - Pete. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 20:11:14 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:11:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20071119180518.E98276@shell.lmi.net> > > I don't think that there is any question that 102400 is > >a totally indefensible, irresponsible, and ridiculous number > >for defining a "Megabyte". On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Ensor wrote: > You're quite right, the actual number is "1048576" or 1024KB. But that's not > your point is it? Yes, it is. There are arguments for 2 ^ 20 (1048576) There are arguments for 10 ^ 6 (1000000) But (10 ^ 3) * (2 ^ 10) (1024000) manages to combine the disadvantages of both systems. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 19 20:16:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:16:34 -0700 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <47424382.5050400@jetnet.ab.ca> Ensor wrote: > Whilst I agree that "going decimal" is easier to understand for the > average "man in the street", at the end of the day, the *ONLY* reason > that hard drive manufacturers have gone to using 1000 instead of 1024 > when calculating sizes is that it artificially makes the drives seem > bigger. Or, in other words, it's pure marketing! Except proft margin ... then meg-a-bucks is binary. :) > > Point in case, I have a "200GB" Maxtor drive in this machine, which is > *actually* a 186GB drive. Both sizes are quite correct depending on your > definition of "Kilo", "Mega" etc. > > Since computers operate in binary, it makes *VASTLY* more sense for > "Kilo" to be defined as 1024 than 1000 (2^10) etc. It still is. > Most operating systems I've used tend to agree.... Other than windows ... it is 640K OS. > > TTFN - Pete. > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 20:16:46 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:16:46 -0800 Subject: VAXmate for Windows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I didn't expect so much interest in these disks. I've gotten two private > emails asking about them and now Bletchley Park. At the very least I > ought to make images of these disks before sending them off to wherever > they end up. Please do. I have two Vaxmates in storage with bad ST225 hard drives. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Mon Nov 19 20:21:43 2007 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:51:43 +1030 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: Chris M > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:24:13 -0800 (PST) > To: talk > Subject: *updating* 8088's > > We've all seen different varieties of 8088 to 80286 > upgrades. A few at least plug into the 8088's socket. > I saw a '286 to '486 upgrade (must have been similar > in that respect) at a show a while back (didn't buy > it). We also know about OverDrive products. What would > happen if you pig-piled all these things in an old > 8088 machines? What would happen? Cataclysmic > explosion? > Were there ever 8086 to 80286 upgrades for the few > machines that used them? > I'd like to see an 80286 to 80486 upgrade card. It would need to somehow multiplex the 32-bit bus onto the 16-bit bus, perhaps running the multiplexing process at double the CPU clock speed. The SX wasn't 16-bit was it? Or am I thinking of the 386SX. If it's 16-bit it wouldn't need multiplexing. Perhaps to hack an 80386 onto an 8088 board you could take a 386SX and run it at 1/2 of the crystal speed. I think that's 14.3MHz which would be about 7.2MHz, where each of the crystal clock cycles latches a consecutive byte of data and the 1/2 speed is sent to the 386SX. A 74F646 would be good for the latch. You might run into an issue of minimum clock speed too. I don't know what the minimum for the 386/486 is. I know RISC microcontrollers can go down to DC, but the 8386/486 might not. Alexis. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 19 20:28:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:28:36 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4741D5D4.24487.30332191@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2007 at 17:24, Chris M wrote: > We've all seen different varieties of 8088 to 80286 > upgrades. A few at least plug into the 8088's socket. > I saw a '286 to '486 upgrade (must have been similar > in that respect) at a show a while back (didn't buy > it). We also know about OverDrive products. What would > happen if you pig-piled all these things in an old > 8088 machines? What would happen? Cataclysmic > explosion? > Were there ever 8086 to 80286 upgrades for the few > machines that used them? I don't know--but there were plenty of single-board computers that simply plugged into an ISA slot--Pentium included. Most likely if you overdid it, though, your power supply would run out of gas. But, at the expense of stating the obvious, what's the point? Cheers, Chuck (who also ruminates upon other cosmic questions--such as why the IDE for a PIC with 1K of memory is 64MB zipped...) Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 20:31:39 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:31:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071119182812.N6014@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Alexis wrote: > I'd like to see an 80286 to 80486 upgrade card. It would need to somehow > multiplex the 32-bit bus onto the 16-bit bus, perhaps running the > multiplexing process at double the CPU clock speed. The SX wasn't 16-bit was > it? Or am I thinking of the 386SX. If it's 16-bit it wouldn't need > multiplexing. Depending on how you DEFINE "16 bit", the 80386SX is a 16 bit version of the 32 bit 80386[DX]. It therefore is "relatively" easy to retrofit it to replace a 80286. The 80486SX and 80486DX are the same bit sizes. Their differences involve whether or not the math FPU is included. I ran an 80386 board in a 5150 (8088) machine. There didn't seem to be much point to it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 19 20:38:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:38:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <47424382.5050400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <47424382.5050400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20071119183149.L6014@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, woodelf wrote: > > "Kilo" to be defined as 1024 than 1000 (2^10) etc. > It still is. > > Most operating systems I've used tend to agree.... MICROS~1 was inconsistent. FDISK used 2 ^ 20 for MB, but other modules didn't. FORMAT calls the 1.4M diskette "1.44", indicating that it used (2 ^ 10) * (10 *3) > Other than windows ... it is 640K OS. Windoze 3.10 required that there be some HIMEM.SYS RAM (80286, above 1M) Windoze 95 required a 80386SX or above. Windoze 98 would not install unless there was a math FPU. Windoze XP can not run in the 16M max of an 80386SX What does "Vista" require? Note: The college that I work at was named "Vista College" for ~30 years. Last year, when MICROS~1 announced Windoze Vista, the college changed its name, to "Berkeley City College". From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 19 20:46:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:46:51 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4741DA1B.2914.3043D915@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 12:51, Alexis wrote: > You might run into an issue of minimum clock speed too. I don't know what > the minimum for the 386/486 is. I know RISC microcontrollers can go down to > DC, but the 8386/486 might not. Well, there's clock speed and then there's "apparent clock speed". Let's see, a 16MHz 80386sx is equivalent to what, a 10MHz 80286? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 19 21:39:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:39:49 -0700 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4741DA1B.2914.3043D915@cclist.sydex.com> References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <4741DA1B.2914.3043D915@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47425705.7010408@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, there's clock speed and then there's "apparent clock speed". > Let's see, a 16MHz 80386sx is equivalent to what, a 10MHz 80286? So what speed does the memory run at is my question and how wide? Playing around with homebrew micro design I am working on, a 500 ns memory cycle ( 2Mhz ) is about as fast as you can go with standard parts about 150 ns access time. My limiting factor is not memory speed but EEPROM and I/O chips dead slow speeds. > Cheers, > Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Nov 19 21:57:49 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:57:49 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 59 Message-ID: <01C82B00.41D79160@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:58:13 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Micropolis (was: "intelligent" disk drives >Micropolis made excellent floppy drives. It is too bad that their hard >drives sucked. I guess I've just got some bad ones then; speed's all over the place on one (belt's OK) and another one stopped altogether; when they were still working a couple of months ago, read errors were pretty common, even with cleaned heads, lubed helix screw, refreshed disks, etc. >Did anybody ever use their OS? (bundled with some of their 5.25" floppy >drives) MDOS? I've got a copy for my Vectors; boots, but I haven't gotten it to do anything; could be that the diskette doesn't have anything on it of course... Anybody know anything about this OS? Anything special that I need to do to get it to accept commands? One that I know about is DIAG, but that doesn't work either; just "Invalid command"s. m From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Nov 19 22:01:37 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:01:37 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 59 Message-ID: <01C82B00.432742E0@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:44:19 -0600 From: "Jason T" Subject: What CBM Monitor is this? I though I knew most of the CBM models, but I don't recognize this one: http://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=3167507 I wrote to the seller and he gave me a part# from the back which returns nothing in Google. ------------- Looks like my 1702 except for the colour... Isn't there a number on the front? m From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Nov 19 22:05:24 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:05:24 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Were there ever 8086 to 80286 upgrades for the >few machines that used them? There was at least one available. I had one in my first PC clone, a home built machine with a motherboard sporting an NEC V30 processor (NEC's clone of the 8086). It was a 1/2 or 1/3 length 8-bit ISA card from which ran a (very) short cable which plugged into the processor socket on the motherboard (the 8086 was removed and plugged into the ISA bard). There was a switch on the back plate which selected "normal" or "286" mode. I don't recall the manufacturer, but "AST" rings a bell for some reason? I got it in late '90/early '91 and it was at least a couple of years old then I think. Didn't use it much....LOL. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Nov 19 22:09:02 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:09:02 -0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net><006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20071119180518.E98276@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00fd01c82b2b$15ba7b30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > But (10 ^ 3) * (2 ^ 10) (1024000) manages to combine the >disadvantages of both systems. Sorry, I misunderstood....I agree with you completely. TTFN - Pete. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 22:35:32 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:35:32 -0600 Subject: What CBM Monitor is this? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730711191244h70bda53ej4b280f04bd956b02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730711192035p276146adw6d76716dc26803b8@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 19, 2007 4:09 PM, Golan Klinger wrote: > That's a CM-141 which was styled to match the 264 series. It's > technically equivalent to the 1701/1702/1802 and not particularly rare > or valuable but certainly worth the $8 asking price. Ah, great. Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 00:30:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:30:15 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47425705.7010408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <4741DA1B.2914.3043D915@cclist.sydex.com>, <47425705.7010408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47420E77.2053.31106050@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2007 at 20:39, woodelf wrote: > So what speed does the memory run at is my question and how wide? > Playing around with homebrew micro design I am working on, a 500 ns > memory cycle ( 2Mhz ) is about as fast as you can go with standard > parts about 150 ns access time. My limiting factor is not memory > speed but EEPROM and I/O chips dead slow speeds. Well, most of the "good" upgrade cards have their own BIOS and memory. The bus is used mostly for I/O device access. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 00:39:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:39:33 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071119183149.L6014@shell.lmi.net> References: , <47424382.5050400@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20071119183149.L6014@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474210A5.10050.3118E43F@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2007 at 18:38, Fred Cisin wrote: > MICROS~1 was inconsistent. FDISK used 2 ^ 20 for MB, but other modules > didn't. FORMAT calls the 1.4M diskette "1.44", indicating that it used > (2 ^ 10) * (10 *3) Until the rest of the world decided otherwise, I referred to HD disks as 1200K and 1440K. At least that was honest. The 1.2MB and 1.44MB were simply perversions, I assume for shorthand purposes. To their credit, as of MS-DOS 6.22, the HELP for FORMAT gives 1440K, 1200K and 2800K as the *first* of several alternatives for specifying capacity. 2K and later drops the "K" forms in the HELP file, but FORMAT still accepts them. So honesty is at least nodded at. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 06:08:16 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:08:16 -0500 Subject: VAXmate for Windows Message-ID: <0JRR00EP45O7WUK0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAXmate for Windows > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:54:12 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 9:23 PM -0800 11/18/07, David Griffith wrote: >>I have seven 5.25" floppies labeled as RX33K which contain: >> >>VAXmate MS-Windows v1.03 (two disks) >>VAXmate Info System v1.1 >>VT240 Emulator Update >>VAXmate S/A Install v1.1 >>VAXmate MS-DOS v3.10 >> >>All of these are labeled "For VAXmate operating environment v1.1". >> >>I don't remember where it came from, but there's been some recent talk >>about VAXen. Who wants these? > >I assume these will only run on a VAXmate? I've only seen one >VAXmate and that was nearly 10 years ago. How good was the VT240 >emulation? VAXmate was a 286 clone, I forget if it was 100% pc or off by a little from the PC AT. VT240 em was decent, I forget if there were any differnces. Allison > >Zane > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 08:23:20 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:23:20 -0500 Subject: VAXmate for Windows Message-ID: <0JRR006SRBUBI4Z2@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAXmate for Windows > From: Adrian Graham > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:51:54 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 19/11/07 06:54, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> At 9:23 PM -0800 11/18/07, David Griffith wrote: >>> I have seven 5.25" floppies labeled as RX33K which contain: >>> >>> VAXmate MS-Windows v1.03 (two disks) >>> VAXmate Info System v1.1 >>> VT240 Emulator Update >>> VAXmate S/A Install v1.1 >>> VAXmate MS-DOS v3.10 >>> >>> All of these are labeled "For VAXmate operating environment v1.1". >>> >>> I don't remember where it came from, but there's been some recent talk >>> about VAXen. Who wants these? >> >> I assume these will only run on a VAXmate? I've only seen one >> VAXmate and that was nearly 10 years ago. How good was the VT240 >> emulation? > >I never tried the full graphics side of things on the emulator, but as a >terminal it was great, a novelty in those days to have a black-on-amber >display too! > >We have 2 VAXmates at Bletchley Park so if those floppies could wing their >way across the pond that'd be great! I keep meaning to drag them out of >their storage room and set at least one up to exhibit, we're building an >Electronic Office exhibit that the VAXmate should be a part of really. If the VAXmates have the optional hard disk box mind the cooling if RD32 (ST250? 40mb) as it ran very hot and tended to fail. The RD31 (st225 20mb) was lower power, cooler and far more reliable. If you make it operational the VAXmate was a PCSA(Pathworks) terminal with Ethernet access to shared and private files on VAX/OpenVMS. The result made it a very useful system. Typical VAXmate had 2MB of ram some had 4, back then that was a large amount. Allison >-- >Adrian/Witchy >Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >collection? > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 16:09:39 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:09:39 -0500 Subject: Micropolis (was: "intelligent" disk drives Message-ID: <0JRR00GKSXI41AS4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Micropolis (was: "intelligent" disk drives > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:58:13 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Micropolis made excellent floppy drives. It is too bad that their hard >drives sucked. > > >Did anybody ever use their OS? (bundled with some of their 5.25" floppy >drives) > It was called MDOS. Never got a chance to. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 20:58:57 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:58:57 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRS00894AW8B4X3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:31:39 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Alexis wrote: >> I'd like to see an 80286 to 80486 upgrade card. It would need to somehow >> multiplex the 32-bit bus onto the 16-bit bus, perhaps running the >> multiplexing process at double the CPU clock speed. The SX wasn't 16-bit was >> it? Or am I thinking of the 386SX. If it's 16-bit it wouldn't need >> multiplexing. > >Depending on how you DEFINE "16 bit", the 80386SX is a 16 bit version of >the 32 bit 80386[DX]. It therefore is "relatively" easy to retrofit it to >replace a 80286. The 386SX was 32bit core with 16bit databus (modified BIU). While it was cheaper to build systems around and smaller too the performance cost was high compared to the DX. >The 80486SX and 80486DX are the same bit sizes. Their differences involve >whether or not the math FPU is included. > >I ran an 80386 board in a 5150 (8088) machine. There didn't seem to be >much point to it. > I ran a Leading Edge model D (PC XT clone) with an Intel Inboard-386. It gave me 2MB ram and a 16mhz CPU (beats 4.77!) and a bottleneck of the 8bit ISA. However it ran winders3.1 and was a whole lot faster than the 4.77mhz V20. At the time it was far cheaper than a real 386 and much better than the 8088. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 22:03:23 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:03:23 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: woodelf > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:39:49 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Well, there's clock speed and then there's "apparent clock speed". >> Let's see, a 16MHz 80386sx is equivalent to what, a 10MHz 80286? Actually it's teh other way around the 386 was more efficient than 286 for the same clock speed. >So what speed does the memory run at is my question and how wide? The SX narrows teh bus bandwidth so the memory is cycled either faster to make up for it or has fewer idle states (bus availability). that meant using 60ns 30pin simms. >Playing around with homebrew micro design I am working on, a 500 ns >memory cycle ( 2Mhz ) is about as fast as you can go with standard >parts about 150 ns access time. My limiting factor is not memory >speed but EEPROM and I/O chips dead slow speeds. Those speed limits are consistant with pre 1978 parts for ram and even in 1979 I had some semistatic rams that were 200ns. Eproms were always slow and didn't break the 250ns barrier until around 82 but the mask roms were quite a bit faster. I build with 6 and 10mhz z80s and 12mhz 8085s I have and theres little problem with finding static rams and Eprom (and EEprom) that can keep up. I say little problem as I can find plenty of parts that way too fast in non-DIP formats. If I need faster I can easily find CMOS static rams in the under 25ns range (486dx used 32kx8 and even 64kx8 15ns parts for cache) and larger EE/Flash/Eproms in the sub100ns range. Even back in 1982 I could get power hungry 2147(4Kx1) and 2167(16kx1) parts in the 45ns range. Drams even first out 4164s were under Tcy of 300ns. Old Eproms in the pre8K sizes (2716, 2732) were never fast but 27C256s that do 150ns are really old parts and 27C010s I have are 150ns for the slow parts. Zilog peripherals can be found still at 4mhz and the 8085/8088 (82xx) parts were good to 5mhz with later ones (82Cxx) good to 125ns. Allison >> Cheers, >> Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 02:47:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:47:51 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2007 at 23:03, Allison wrote: > Actually it's teh other way around the 386 was more efficient than > 286 for the same clock speed. In 16-bit mode, I seem to recall that the 386SX was a travesty of a CPU; a 16 MHz SX ran nowhere near as fast as a comparably-clocked 286. Early 386 boxes were nothing to crow about in 16-bit mode--and a 32-bit software base pretty much didn't exist early on--and the 386SX was limited to 16MB of external memory, just like the 286. Doubtless the 386SX board designs were low-budged also, which probably figured into things. Some 286 vendors made a big thing of the fact that a 286 could execute 16-bit real mode code substantially faster than the 386SX. For example: http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an121.pdf On the other hand, the 386SX could execute 32-bit code. That is, if you had any to run in 1989. Cheers, Chuck From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 03:28:03 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:28:03 +0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2007 1:59 AM, Ensor wrote: > Point in case, I have a "200GB" Maxtor drive in this machine, which is > *actually* a 186GB drive. Both sizes are quite correct depending on your > definition of "Kilo", "Mega" etc. > > Since computers operate in binary, it makes *VASTLY* more sense for "Kilo" > to be defined as 1024 than 1000 (2^10) etc. > > Most operating systems I've used tend to agree.... Indeed, and Seagate got sued for exactly this not too long ago: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,39290393,00.htm?r=1 Hopefully this "1MB = 1000000 bytes" rubbish the drive manufacturers keep peddling will be over soon. I can't imagine even the marketers like class-action lawsuits that much. Ed. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Nov 20 04:03:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:03:16 +0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071120100316.GC31456@usap.gov> On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 12:47:51AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On the other hand, the 386SX could execute 32-bit code. That is, if > you had any to run in 1989. There was plenty of 32-bit code being written in 1989... just not for MS-DOS. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Nov-2007 at 09:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -40.7 F (-40.4 C) Windchill -63.5 F (-53.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.8 kts Grid 73 Barometer 681.9 mb (10557 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 20 07:34:59 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:34:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071120100316.GC31456@usap.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Nov 20, 7 10:03:16 am" Message-ID: <200711201334.lAKDYxgr014790@floodgap.com> > > On the other hand, the 386SX could execute 32-bit code. That is, if > > you had any to run in 1989. > > There was plenty of 32-bit code being written in 1989... just not for MS-DOS. What about games, DOS/4GW, ... ? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Nov 20 08:07:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:07:12 -0600 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4742EA10.2050208@mdrconsult.com> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On Nov 20, 2007 1:59 AM, Ensor wrote: >> Point in case, I have a "200GB" Maxtor drive in this machine, which is >> *actually* a 186GB drive. Both sizes are quite correct depending on your >> definition of "Kilo", "Mega" etc. >> >> Since computers operate in binary, it makes *VASTLY* more sense for "Kilo" >> to be defined as 1024 than 1000 (2^10) etc. >> >> Most operating systems I've used tend to agree.... > > Indeed, and Seagate got sued for exactly this not too long ago: > > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,39290393,00.htm?r=1 > > Hopefully this "1MB = 1000000 bytes" rubbish the drive manufacturers > keep peddling will be over soon. I can't imagine even the marketers > like class-action lawsuits that much. But we'll still be stuck with "MebiBytes" forever more. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 20 08:51:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:51:30 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071120100316.GC31456@usap.gov> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> <20071120100316.GC31456@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2007, at 5:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On the other hand, the 386SX could execute 32-bit code. That is, if >> you had any to run in 1989. > > There was plenty of 32-bit code being written in 1989... just not > for MS-DOS. Thank you! You saved me the trouble of saying exactly the same thing. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 10:03:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:03:47 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071120100316.GC31456@usap.gov> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>, <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071120100316.GC31456@usap.gov> Message-ID: <474294E3.15515.331D736B@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 10:03, Ethan Dicks wrote: > There was plenty of 32-bit code being written in 1989... just not for MS-DOS. No doubt (I probably used a lot of it). But how much was available at the debut of the 386sx? The PC world took an extraordinarily long time to fully embrace 32-bit code. In 1989, there was Windows/386, but that was about it from Microsoft--and it wasn't wildly popular. I remember packages such as 386max, but those weren't applications per se, just operating enhancements. Even Windows 3.0 was a full year away in 1989. OS/2 2.0 was 3 years off; Windows NT was 4 years away (and I wouldn't call 3.0 a 32-bit bit OS because it could load 32-bit VxDs). That was pretty lame for a CPU feature that had been available to the public since 1986--and known, more or less accurately, by vendors for at least a year prior to that. Maybe the "16 BIT S/W ONLY" chips didn't help either. In 1989 most protected-mode code was 16-bit. I recall an Intel application engineer moaning about this at the time. I suspect a fair number of people grabbed a 386sx because they thought it would make things run faster--or for the hype. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 20 10:41:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:41:20 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4741D5D4.24487.30332191@cclist.sydex.com> References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <4741D5D4.24487.30332191@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Chuck > (who also ruminates upon other cosmic questions--such as why the IDE > for a PIC with 1K of memory is 64MB zipped...) Why IDEs exist at all is something that puzzles me. Every time I've tried them, they've just gotten in the way! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 20 10:43:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:43:02 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4DDBE545-86CA-40DC-A18C-A49E2A672CD5@neurotica.com> On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:03 PM, Allison wrote: > I build with 6 and 10mhz z80s and 12mhz 8085s I have and theres > little problem with finding static rams and Eprom (and EEprom) > that can keep up. Did you say 12MHz 8085? Holy cow! Tell me more? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 10:58:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:58:39 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <4741D5D4.24487.30332191@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4742A1BF.24552.334FB088@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 11:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > Why IDEs exist at all is something that puzzles me. Every time > I've tried them, they've just gotten in the way! I'd just rather use command-line MPASM, but the web-distributed version hasn't been updated with all of the newer device .INC files, so you've got to download the MPLAB IDE and install it before you can grab the file you need for MPASM. Bit of a bother. I'll drop Microchip a suggestion that they package the .INC files separately for those of us averse to using their IDE. (Sorry for the OT, Jay.) Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 20 11:34:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:34:51 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] four VT100 terminals free Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:22:32 -0600 Groups: comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.os.vms From: "Lee K. Gleason" Subject: four VT100 terminals free Id: ======== I'm narrowing the scope of my collection (translation - no room for everything anymore). I have four VT100s, in pretty good shape, and a few additional extra keyboards as well. Free to whoever wants to pick 'em up in Houston Texas, near TC Jester & the North Loop. First come, first served.... -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason at comcast.net From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 11:37:13 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:37:13 -0500 Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <20071119175143.Q98276@shell.lmi.net> References: <200711192036.42316.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071119175143.Q98276@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711201237.13994.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 19 November 2007 20:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The 2GB limit was due to MICROS~1 using a signed, rather than unsigned, > > > long integer. 'Course that did make it possible to have a file with > > > -2147483648 bytes :-) > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Having bumped into that limit at times, it made next to zero sense to me > > that some programmer couldn't take the trouble to type "unsigned" in > > front of "int" for that particular bit of code... > > Grr! > > 1) "That number (2147483647) is soo big that nobody would ever need more > than that!" That sorta reminds me of a fairly well-known quote about 640K... > 2) Some of the earlier compilers didn't have an "unsigned long int" Broken tools are still broken. > 3) What happens if you copy a -2G file to an otherwise almost full disk? Beats me. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 20 11:45:32 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:45:32 -0600 Subject: Museum in St. Louis? Message-ID: <002f01c82b9d$2c2d5f50$6500a8c0@BILLING> "Appropriate Resources" in St. Louis may potentially be available to start a public Museum of Computation History.... there are discussions going on with people who could easily make it happen in any case, but it's far too early to say anything definite. One of the things I was asked as part of a what-if scenario - Could I anticipate that some collectors on this list would be willing to loan items on an extended term for such an effort? Only top notch museum quality pieces would be sought. We'd pay 100% of the costs to have it crated, shipped, insured, etc. and also full return costs. The length of the loan might be open-ended at your preference. Surely some of you have really nice items that you don't have room for and wouldn't mind it being stored elsewhere for a while so that the public can enjoy it. If anyone has such things, could you let me know off-list? I need to find out if enough artifacts are available, how much floor space may be needed, etc. Thanks! Jay West From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 20 11:47:55 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:47:55 +0000 Subject: Micropolis Message-ID: <112020071747.17894.47431DCB00006ECA000045E622216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > > 3) What happens if you copy a -2G file to an otherwise almost full disk? > > Beats me. It gets you another 2 gig of space, of course. This is the little secret of drive manufacturers. For the chip guys, it's the magic smoke. For the drive guys, they have the fabulous increases in capacity by copying files of negative size. They just want us to think it's a lot of hard work devising new ways of packing magnetic domains tighter. (Just in case the tounge-in-cheek nature fails to get throught: :-) BLS From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 13:27:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:27:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 19, 7 03:37:04 pm Message-ID: > > > > IIRC, the 2.8M is vertical recording, with a Barium Ferrite diskette. > > > (also called "4M" (unformatted capacity) by NeXT) > > > If'n anybody wants to call it "2.88M", then multiply 2 * 80 * 36 * 512 > > > and tell me exactly how many bytes are in your "megabyte"s. > On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > Since that's esactly twice the capacity of a MS-DOS format HD 3.5" disk > > (36 sectors/track as against 18), I assume the answer to your quesiton is > > 1024000 > > I don't think that there is any question that 102400 is a totally > indefensible, irresponsible, and ridiculous number for defining a > "Megabyte". Especially as you've dropped an order of magnitude there (sorry, couldn't resist). Assuming you meant 1024000 (1024*1000), I agree totally. I can justify 1024^2 (1048576). I can justify 10^6 (1000000). But to mix the 2 systems is ridiculous I wonder what defintions have been used for a gigabyte. 2^30 and 10^9 are obvious and easy to justify. Did anyone ever use 2^20*10^ or 2^10*10^6 I wonder? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 13:34:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:34:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: from "Alexis" at Nov 20, 7 12:51:43 pm Message-ID: > I'd like to see an 80286 to 80486 upgrade card. It would need to somehow I have one. It's currently running in the machine I am typing this on. It's a little module with a TI 486-compatile processor on one side and, IIRC, the floating poiut coprocessor for it on the other (or at least that's the only explanation I can find for 2 large PQFPs). A couple of PLDs and a PLCC 'plug' to go into the 80286 socket. It's not an ISA card or anyhting like that, it just goes into the processor socekt. Packed with it was a PLCC socket, the idea being you could plug that into the PGA socket of that type of 80286, then plug the module on top. Doing that clashed with one of the expansion cards in this PC/AT, so I desoldered the PGA socket, soldered a PLCC socket in its place, and stuck the module in. I think I looked up the processor chip in a databook once to find it was actually designed for laptops, and could run iwth a 16 bit external bus. Which simplified things a lot. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 20 13:54:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:54:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <200711201237.13994.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711192036.42316.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071119175143.Q98276@shell.lmi.net> <200711201237.13994.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071120114836.X44282@shell.lmi.net> > > 1) "That number (2147483647) is soo big that nobody would ever need more > > than that!" On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > That sorta reminds me of a fairly well-known quote about 640K... some statements will inevitably keep recurring. Lots of people apply Moore's law to the past, but rarely look forward with it in planning products. > > 2) Some of the earlier compilers didn't have an "unsigned long int" > Broken tools are still broken. . . . and most are deisgned that way > > 3) What happens if you copy a -2G file to an otherwise almost full disk? > Beats me. Well, if it were to have succeeded (it didn't), it would have added 2G more free space. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 14:01:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:01:41 -0800 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 19, 7 03:37:04 pm, Message-ID: <4742CCA5.19426.33F73DF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > Assuming you meant 1024000 (1024*1000), I agree totally. I can justify > 1024^2 (1048576). I can justify 10^6 (1000000). But to mix the 2 systems > is ridiculous. Consider that the disk as manufactured is sold as a "2MB" disk. Let's see, raw capacity is 12500 bytes per track, 160 tracks (80 cylinders, 2 sides) = 2,000,000 bytes exactly. So getting 1,474,560 bytes billed as "1.44MB" when the manufacturer uses 1M = 1,000,000 is quite a nice bonus. You get an additional 34,560 bytes. Cheers, Chuck From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 14:06:35 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:06:35 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal Message-ID: <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> I've just gotten my hands on a working AT&T Sceptre system, which is a 1983 Videotex terminal that implements the NAPLPS standard for vector graphics transmission (the same sort of graphics that was used by the Prodigy online service, if you remember that). It powers up fine and generates the welcome screen, which includes a "Press [Data] to login" message. Once you press [Data], the screen blanks, and I presume that it's trying to establish some sort of connection over the RS-232 port. I've just started poking at the thing and haven't gotten far, as I need to grab a null modem from elsewhere, but I thought there might be a chance that somebody out there has the documentation for one of these things. Through searching about, I'm fairly certain that it's hardwired to speak 1200/7E1 on the serial port, but what it's expecting to hear is the question. Just a stream of NAPLPS-encoded data? Or is there more negotiation to be done? I have at least found an online source for the NAPLPS encoding itself: http://netghost.narod.ru/gff/vendspec/naplps/naplps.txt From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 20 14:07:01 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:07:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071120115654.B44714@shell.lmi.net> > > I don't think that there is any question that 102400 is a totally > > indefensible, irresponsible, and ridiculous number for defining a > > "Megabyte". On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Especially as you've dropped an order of magnitude there (sorry, couldn't > resist). Thanks If I'm this clumsy with a keyboard, I'd better be very careful when soldering. > Assuming you meant 1024000 (1024*1000), I agree totally. I can justify > 1024^2 (1048576). I can justify 10^6 (1000000). But to mix the 2 systems > is ridiculous > I wonder what defintions have been used for a gigabyte. 2^30 and 10^9 are > obvious and easy to justify. Did anyone ever use 2^20*10^ or 2^10*10^6 I > wonder? Well, probably 2^20*10^ 3 (your turn) I've seen both. But usually expressed in terms of MBs ("A GB is 1024 MB"/"A GB is 1000 MB") (1024000000/1048576000)? It's as futile an argument as trying to explain "DB9". (a 25 pin shell, usually with 1 through 8 and 20) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 14:20:03 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:20:03 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47434173.6070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Meiss wrote: > I've just gotten my hands on a working AT&T Sceptre system, which is a > 1983 Videotex terminal that implements the NAPLPS standard for vector > graphics transmission (the same sort of graphics that was used by the > Prodigy online service, if you remember that). It powers up fine and > generates the welcome screen, which includes a "Press [Data] to login" > message. Once you press [Data], the screen blanks, and I presume that > it's trying to establish some sort of connection over the RS-232 port. > > I've just started poking at the thing and haven't gotten far, as I > need to grab a null modem from elsewhere, but I thought there might be > a chance that somebody out there has the documentation for one of > these things. Through searching about, I'm fairly certain that it's > hardwired to speak 1200/7E1 on the serial port, but what it's > expecting to hear is the question. Just a stream of NAPLPS-encoded > data? Or is there more negotiation to be done? I am guessing it hardwrired for 1200/7E1 download and 300/7E1 uploading. Here in Canada you had more NAPLPS stuff, but NAPLPS terminals where allways a rare item to be found. > I have at least found an online source for the NAPLPS encoding itself: > > http://netghost.narod.ru/gff/vendspec/naplps/naplps.txt > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 20 14:23:09 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:23:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <112020071747.17894.47431DCB00006ECA000045E622216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <112020071747.17894.47431DCB00006ECA000045E622216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <20071120122137.L44714@shell.lmi.net> > > > 3) What happens if you copy a -2G file to an otherwise almost full disk? On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > It gets you another 2 gig of space, of course. This is the > little secret of drive manufacturers. For the chip guys, > it's the magic smoke. For the drive guys, they have the > fabulous increases in capacity by copying files of negative > size. They just want us to think it's a lot of hard work > devising new ways of packing magnetic domains tighter. > (Just in case the tounge-in-cheek nature fails to get > throught: :-) But, what is the resistor color code for negative ohms? (Octarine?) From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 20 14:33:39 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:33:39 +0000 Subject: Micropolis Message-ID: <112020072033.29032.474344A3000832340000716822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: Fred Cisin > > > > > 3) What happens if you copy a -2G file to an otherwise almost full disk? > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > It gets you another 2 gig of space, of course. This is the > > ... > > But, what is the resistor color code for negative ohms? > (Octarine?) A pigment that reflects only infrared? BLS From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 20 14:37:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:37:44 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:06:35 -0500. <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7 at mail.gmail.com>, "Mark Meiss" writes: > I've just gotten my hands on a working AT&T Sceptre system [...] Sweet! Can we see some pictures? I've been looking for a videotex terminal, but since noone remembers what videotex (or NAPLPS) is anymore its hard to find out exactly which terminals have this support without already knowing about it. > I've just started poking at the thing and haven't gotten far, as I > need to grab a null modem from elsewhere, I use a USB<->RS232 dongle (they're cheap) and talk to terminals with my PC. I write code that generates the appropriate escape codes to make the terminal do something interesting. You can also use a terminal emulator program and have it talk to your terminal like its a modem. I haven't needed any "null modem" cables in order for this to work so far. > I have at least found an online source for the NAPLPS encoding itself: > > http://netghost.narod.ru/gff/vendspec/naplps/naplps.txt The only reference I know of is that there was a big article on NAPLPS in BYTE magazine back in the early 80s. I believe it was mentioned on the cover, but I couldn't find any mention of it here -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 14:52:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:52:36 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47434914.3060207@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > I use a USB<->RS232 dongle (they're cheap) and talk to terminals with > my PC. I write code that generates the appropriate escape codes to > make the terminal do something interesting. You can also use a > terminal emulator program and have it talk to your terminal like its a > modem. I haven't needed any "null modem" cables in order for this to > work so far. Just keep away from escape and SI/SO control codes for now. I had some stuff on that about 10 years ago, but that is now all History. One thing about the terminals I have used is that they are DOG slow regarding text updates.Also I don't think they do local echo. >> I have at least found an online source for the NAPLPS encoding itself: >> >> http://netghost.narod.ru/gff/vendspec/naplps/naplps.txt > > The only reference I know of is that there was a big article on NAPLPS > in BYTE magazine back in the early 80s. I believe it was mentioned on > the cover, but I couldn't find any mention of it here > The naplps stuff is fairly regular, but escape codes shift out/in terminal or line/graphics codes. Byte I think was the best reference I have seen. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 14:54:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:54:50 -0800 Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <20071120122137.L44714@shell.lmi.net> References: <112020071747.17894.47431DCB00006ECA000045E622216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net>, <20071120122137.L44714@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4742D91A.21427.3427E6DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 12:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, what is the resistor color code for negative ohms? > (Octarine?) Well, given that positive ohms are denoted by pignments that absorb light, I assume that it'd be something with radium as an active ingredient... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 14:52:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:52:39 -0800 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4742D897.6576.3425E871@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 13:37, Richard wrote: > The only reference I know of is that there was a big article on NAPLPS > in BYTE magazine back in the early 80s. I believe it was mentioned on > the cover, but I couldn't find any mention of it here > My "now useless documentation" drawer has the Videotex standard document in it. IIRC, one learned the answer to the question "What's an ogonek?" Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 15:02:43 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:02:43 -0700 Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <20071120122137.L44714@shell.lmi.net> References: <112020071747.17894.47431DCB00006ECA000045E622216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> <20071120122137.L44714@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47434B73.5030704@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> 3) What happens if you copy a -2G file to an otherwise almost full disk? > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Brian L. Stuart wrote: >> It gets you another 2 gig of space, of course. This is the >> little secret of drive manufacturers. For the chip guys, >> it's the magic smoke. For the drive guys, they have the >> fabulous increases in capacity by copying files of negative >> size. They just want us to think it's a lot of hard work >> devising new ways of packing magnetic domains tighter. >> (Just in case the tounge-in-cheek nature fails to get >> throught: :-) > > But, what is the resistor color code for negative ohms? > (Octarine?) You read them RIGHT to LEFT. :) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 20 14:49:56 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:49:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Resistor colour codes [no longer Re: Micropolis] In-Reply-To: <112020072033.29032.474344A3000832340000716822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <112020072033.29032.474344A3000832340000716822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <200711202102.QAA28308@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> But, what is the resistor color code for negative ohms? > A pigment that reflects only infrared? Outside the 2..7 range, there is no spectral order. (Black, brown, grey, and white are not part of the spectrum in the usual sense.) Still, the idea makes some sense. But most floating-point formts are sign-magnitude, and I see no reason this would be different - perhaps the body should be a different colour? Also see xkcd cartoon #227. A negative-resistance resistor would be a very peculiar device. (Not the same thing as a device with a negative-slope portion of its current/voltage characteristic, which is spoken of as negative resistance but is only *incrementally* negative....) Connect a capacitor and nothing happens, unless it's already charged, in which case it gets charged more and more until something breaks. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 15:09:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:09:17 -0700 Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <4742D91A.21427.3427E6DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <112020071747.17894.47431DCB00006ECA000045E622216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net>, <20071120122137.L44714@shell.lmi.net> <4742D91A.21427.3427E6DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47434CFD.8070705@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, given that positive ohms are denoted by pignments that absorb > light, I assume that it'd be something with radium as an active > ingredient... Well chuck you are the winner of today's URL of glowing things. http://www.ekac.org/gfpbunny.html > Cheers, > Chuck PS. the bunny is real. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 15:23:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:23:55 -0800 Subject: Resistor colour codes [no longer Re: Micropolis] In-Reply-To: <200711202102.QAA28308@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <112020072033.29032.474344A3000832340000716822243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net>, <200711202102.QAA28308@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4742DFEB.8955.34428A01@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 15:49, der Mouse wrote: > Connect a capacitor and nothing happens, unless it's already charged, > in which case it gets charged more and more until something breaks. ...and you have to watch out for those power-un-resistors. Touch one while a circuit's operating and you can get a bad case of frostbite... ;) Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 20 15:36:27 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:36:27 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:52:36 -0700. <47434914.3060207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <47434914.3060207 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Richard wrote: > > > I use a USB<->RS232 dongle (they're cheap) and talk to terminals with > > my PC. I write code that generates the appropriate escape codes to > > make the terminal do something interesting. You can also use a > > terminal emulator program and have it talk to your terminal like its a > > modem. I haven't needed any "null modem" cables in order for this to > > work so far. > > Just keep away from escape and SI/SO control codes for now. Eh? I've used escape codes over a USB dongle and had no problems. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 15:36:37 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:36:37 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 20, 2007 3:37 PM, Richard wrote: > > Sweet! Can we see some pictures? I've been looking for a videotex > terminal, but since noone remembers what videotex (or NAPLPS) is > anymore its hard to find out exactly which terminals have this support > without already knowing about it. My digital photography skills are poor (to say the least), but here are a few pictures of the equipment: http://steinbeck.ucs.indiana.edu/~mmeiss/sceptre/ It consists of a base unit that's somewhere around 13" x 11" x 4", connected to a (fairly wretched) chicklet keyboard with a standard 4-conductor telephone handset cord. The keyboard is powered by a 9-volt battery. On the back of the main unit are connectors for power, the keyboard, RS-232C (DB-25 female), composite video out, and audio out. I've yet to crack the case, but based on a few scraps of information I've seen, I think the CPU may be an 8085 -- clocked at what speed, I don't know. The thing first retailed in 1983 for $900, soon cut down to $600. > I use a USB<->RS232 dongle (they're cheap) and talk to terminals with > my PC. I write code that generates the appropriate escape codes to > make the terminal do something interesting. You can also use a > terminal emulator program and have it talk to your terminal like its a > modem. I haven't needed any "null modem" cables in order for this to > work so far. I've got a few USB<->RS232 dongles besides a few null modem cables and a SmartCable -- unfortunately, the lot of them are in my garage and not my office. It's just a matter of waiting until evening and the chance to grab the proper equipment. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 15:37:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:37:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071120115654.B44714@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 20, 7 12:07:01 pm Message-ID: > > I wonder what defintions have been used for a gigabyte. 2^30 and 10^9 are > > obvious and easy to justify. Did anyone ever use 2^20*10^ or 2^10*10^6 I > > wonder? > > Well, probably 2^20*10^ 3 (your turn) YEs, that's esactly what I meant. Ooops... > I've seen both. But usually expressed in terms of MBs > ("A GB is 1024 MB"/"A GB is 1000 MB") > (1024000000/1048576000)? OK, but since we've already seen 3 definitions for MB, I guess that means a GB could be : 10^9 (1000 * 10^6) 10^6*2^10 (1000 * (2^10*10^3) or 1024 * 10^6)) 10^3*2^20 (1000 * 2^20 or 1024 * (2^10*10^3)) 2^30 (1024 * 2^20) where the parthenesised expressions give the ways each value could be obtained from onwe of the multipliers you gave and a definintion of MB we've already seen in the obvious way. > It's as futile an argument as trying to explain "DB9". > (a 25 pin shell, usually with 1 through 8 and 20) Although I haev seen 2-7,20 and 22 :-) -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 20 15:40:34 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:40:34 -0800 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal References: <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> <47434173.6070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47435452.2130A597@cs.ubc.ca> woodelf wrote: > > Mark Meiss wrote: > > I've just gotten my hands on a working AT&T Sceptre system, which is a > > 1983 Videotex terminal that implements the NAPLPS standard for vector > > graphics transmission (the same sort of graphics that was used by the > > Prodigy online service, if you remember that). It powers up fine and > > generates the welcome screen, which includes a "Press [Data] to login" > > message. Once you press [Data], the screen blanks, and I presume that > > it's trying to establish some sort of connection over the RS-232 port. > > > > I've just started poking at the thing and haven't gotten far, as I > > need to grab a null modem from elsewhere, but I thought there might be > > a chance that somebody out there has the documentation for one of > > these things. Through searching about, I'm fairly certain that it's > > hardwired to speak 1200/7E1 on the serial port, but what it's > > expecting to hear is the question. Just a stream of NAPLPS-encoded > > data? Or is there more negotiation to be done? > > I am guessing it hardwrired for 1200/7E1 download and 300/7E1 uploading. > Here in Canada you had more NAPLPS stuff, but NAPLPS terminals where > allways a rare item to be found. > > > I have at least found an online source for the NAPLPS encoding itself: > > > > http://netghost.narod.ru/gff/vendspec/naplps/naplps.txt There's a Telidon (Cdn videotex service/standard) terminal at the radio museum here I've been intending to look at/play with. Has a colour monitor but it's missing the keyboard (KB plugs in via an RJ-11 jack, so it must be some serial interface). I've been mulling about what to do with it: it's really outside the radio museum's mandate and could get tossed at any time. Historically it speaks to a pre-internet attempt at a public data/information network so it should be in a museum, but I'm not all that enthused about storing it at home. I suppose it adheres to the above-mentioned NAPLPS protocol or some variation. I remember when it was the topic-of-the-day in the early 80's but don't remember details of issues regarding the British/French/Cdn/whatever protocol standards. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 15:42:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:42:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Resistor colour codes [no longer Re: Micropolis] In-Reply-To: <200711202102.QAA28308@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 20, 7 03:49:56 pm Message-ID: > > >> But, what is the resistor color code for negative ohms? > > A pigment that reflects only infrared? > > Outside the 2..7 range, there is no spectral order. (Black, brown, > grey, and white are not part of the spectrum in the usual sense.) > Still, the idea makes some sense. But most floating-point formts are > sign-magnitude, and I see no reason this would be different - perhaps > the body should be a different colour? That's what I would have suggested, except what do you do about body-tip-spot coded -ve resistors :-) :-) :-) Some old Tekky 'scopes have colour-coded wires for the main power supply rails. The 2 stripes give the 2 post significant digits of the supply voltage (it is assumed there's not a 15V and 150V supply in the same instrument, for example), the base colour is, IIRC, white for a +ve rail and black for a -ve one. Soe there is some precedent for changing the background colpur for -ve resistors :-) -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 16:35:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:35:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4741D5D4.24487.30332191@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <442165.40041.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > But, at the expense of stating the obvious, what's > the point? OI IT WOULD BE FUN TO WATCH IT GO BOOOOOOM! > Cheers, > Chuck > (who also ruminates upon other cosmic > questions--such as why the IDE > for a PIC with 1K of memory is 64MB zipped...) feature-bloat prolly ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 16:37:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:37:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071119182812.N6014@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <153042.31931.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > The 80486SX and 80486DX are the same bit sizes. > Their differences involve > whether or not the math FPU is included. Wasn't there a 486slc or something, that was in reality a '386 under the hood (or something)? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 16:41:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:41:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47425705.7010408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> "I ran a Leading Edge model D (PC XT clone) with an Intel Inboard-386. It gave me 2MB ram and a 16mhz CPU (beats 4.77!) and a bottleneck of the 8bit ISA. However it ran winders3.1 and was a whole lot faster than the 4.77mhz V20. At the time it was far cheaper than a real 386 and much better than the 8088." 3.1 needed at least a 386, no? There was Win3.0 (prolly same requirements) and Windows/286. This wouldn't get you the ability to run any of the above, but the 8088/86 was available as high as 20mhz IIRC, or possibly even a bit higher. I don't know what the '186 capped off at (40mhz at least). I thought you didn't like throwaway PCs Allison. What did you finally do with that box? Let me guess, you threw it away LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 16:47:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:47:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <920549.76134.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Were there ever 8086 to 80286 upgrades for the > >few machines that used them? > > There was at least one available. I had one in my > first PC clone, a home > built machine with a motherboard sporting an NEC V30 > processor (NEC's clone > of the 8086). to what degree was it homebuilt? Do you mean simply assembled from parts? Who made the mobo if that was the case. I only know of 1 non-8088 mobo (of course there could have been others). It had an 80186 and was made in California. Maybe there are others that aren't coming to mind. > I don't recall the manufacturer, but "AST" rings a > bell for some reason? I > got it in late '90/early '91 and it was at least a > couple of years old then > I think. I don't specifically recall AST making such an upgrade. Orchid made a few (one with a 186 and a follow up with a 286). AST did make some super duper serial boards ("4 port cards") that usually had an on board '186. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 16:54:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:54:12 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <47425705.7010408@jetnet.ab.ca>, <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4742F514.16749.34952EDF@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 14:41, Chris M wrote: > 3.1 needed at least a 386, no? There was Win3.0 > (prolly same requirements) and Windows/286. This > wouldn't get you the ability to run any of the above, > but the 8088/86 was available as high as 20mhz IIRC, > or possibly even a bit higher. I don't know what the > '186 capped off at (40mhz at least). Nope--you can run 3.1 on a 286--in standard mode. That means no 32- bit VxDs or other fancy stuff, but you can still play Solitaire. On your other post, I think you're thinking of the Cyrix Cx486SLC. 486 instruction set with all the limitations of the 386SX--small bus width, no math coprocessor, 16MB of addressability. Fabbed by TI, I believe. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 17:00:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:00:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <506802.57176.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alexis wrote: > You might run into an issue of minimum clock speed > too. I don't know what > the minimum for the 386/486 is. I know RISC > microcontrollers can go down to > DC, but the 8386/486 might not. Presumably the boards these things come with have their own crystals. I would not expect a '486 upgrade for a '286 to run at 8mhz or anything comparable (but Tony could tell us). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 17:07:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:07:42 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <920549.76134.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <920549.76134.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 14:47, Chris M wrote: > to what degree was it homebuilt? Do you mean simply > assembled from parts? Who made the mobo if that was > the case. I only know of 1 non-8088 mobo (of course > there could have been others). The V30 was not an "upgrade" in the traditional sense--it was a pin- for-pin CMOS replacement for the 8086. Because of some internal architectural features, it ran somewhat faster than an 8086 of the same clock speed and implemented many of the 186 instruction set additions. It also had an emulation mode for running 8080 code. There were more 8086 mobos than you might imagine. Consider, for example, the Stearns PC. Since there was a CMOS 80C86 available before the 80C88, the 8086 also found its way into several laptops. There were also a few NEC V40 machines. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 20 17:21:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:21:17 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:36:37 -0500. <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc at mail.gmail.com>, "Mark Meiss" writes: > http://steinbeck.ucs.indiana.edu/~mmeiss/sceptre/ Excellent! > It consists of a base unit that's somewhere around 13" x 11" x 4", > connected to a (fairly wretched) chicklet keyboard with a standard > 4-conductor telephone handset cord. The keyboard is powered by a > 9-volt battery. Ack! Yes, the keyboard looks painful. I don't think they envisioned that people would actually type on this thing, more like hunt & peck. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 20 17:47:27 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:47:27 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <4741D5D4.24487.30332191@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4743720F.2030808@jbrain.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Chuck >> (who also ruminates upon other cosmic questions--such as why the IDE >> for a PIC with 1K of memory is 64MB zipped...) > > Why IDEs exist at all is something that puzzles me. Every time I've > tried them, they've just gotten in the way! > > -Dave > To each his own, but Eclipse here allows me to write my Java code for re-implementating Q-Link and also allows me to stay on top of my C code for small AVR projects that work with the 64. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 17:59:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:59:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <385280.79342.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were more 8086 mobos than you might imagine. > Consider, for > example, the Stearns PC. Since there was a CMOS > 80C86 available > before the 80C88, the 8086 also found its way into > several laptops. There were a bunch of puters brandishing 8086's, but I don't think I've heard of an 8086 mobo you could just buy outright. He did so "homebuilt" but I'm still waiting for clarification on the terminology. Of course he probably means "home-assembled". ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 20 18:14:08 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:14:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Windoze reqs (was: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071120153041.A55302@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > 3.1 needed at least a 386, no? no 3.10 would run on a 286, with 512K RAM + some XMS (It insisted on that HIMEM.SYS). I installed 3.10 (beta) in August 1991. I ran that setup with Wyse700/Amdek1280 (1280 x 800 B&W) plus EiconScript (Postscript emulation and HP-PCL emulation) and JLASER (HP-PCL emulation) cabled to Cordata (Canon CX) printer with ABC switch (2 360K, 1.2M, 1.4M, 3", 3.25" (on AB switches) Tandon 848 8" and TWO Seagate 4096's (needed 2 power supplies)) until September 2000. > There was Win3.0 (prolly same requirements) 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used would only run on 3.00, and the Cordata board (YAFIYGI font codes & HP-PCL emulation on position C of the ABC switch) would not install with 80286 or above. (2 360K, 720K 3.5", 3", Floptical, Backpack 2.8M, 2 4038's) until September 2000 5150 with 386 board (2 360K, 720K 5.25", and Shugart 8") didn't have Windoze. The other eight machines that I used regularly in my office (bookkeeping, phone log, modem, misc, TRS80 3, Apple ][, Amiga 1000, Mac 128K) had little of interest (and even had tops on their cases!) , and there were other machines (TRS80 1's,Discon, etc.) that didn't get used very often. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 20 18:27:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:27:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <920549.76134.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071120162659.O55302@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were more 8086 mobos than you might imagine. Consider, for > example, the Stearns PC. Since there was a CMOS 80C86 available > before the 80C88, the 8086 also found its way into several laptops. Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 20 18:37:45 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:37:45 -0800 Subject: VAXmate for Windows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2007 6:16 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > Please do. I have two Vaxmates in storage with bad ST225 hard drives. They didn't actually call them ST225 drives if they were installed in a Vaxmate, did they? If so it seems, well, dirty... Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 20 18:37:45 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:37:45 -0800 Subject: VAXmate for Windows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2007 6:16 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > Please do. I have two Vaxmates in storage with bad ST225 hard drives. They didn't actually call them ST225 drives if they were installed in a Vaxmate, did they? If so it seems, well, dirty... Eric From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 20 18:39:45 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:39:45 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: <920549.76134.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006c01c82bd7$04a27da0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > to what degree was it homebuilt? Do you mean simply >assembled from parts? Well yes, I assembled it from parts....considering how much I dislike PCs I was hardly going to design my own motherboard. LOL! >....Who made the mobo if that was the case.... No idea, it was far too many years ago. All I can say with certainty is that it was of Japanese manufacture. When I came to build that machine I had a fairly tough time tracking down a decent XT motherboard, by then even the '286 was old hat with most vendors pushing '386 based mobos. In fact, IIRC, this was the only V30 motherboard I could find over here at the time (though that doesn't meant that others weren't around). >....I only know of 1 non-8088 mobo (of course there could >have been others).... There were certainly a few pre-built PC clones around which used the 8086/V30, the Amstrad 1512/1640 spring to mind. As I said, when I came into PCs no-one wanted XT motherboards anymore (apart from me, as the '286 was a dog and the '386 was still too pricey for a second computer I'd rarely use) so I don't really know what had been available previously. >> I don't recall the manufacturer, but "AST" rings a >>bell for some reason?.... > > I don't specifically recall AST making such an >upgrade. Orchid made a few (one with a 186 and a >follow up with a 286).... Hmmm, you know, it may have been an "Orchid".... I definitely remember having an Orchid manual in amongst some AST manuals I kept in a little ring binder. >....AST did make some super duper serial boards ("4 port >cards") that usually had an on board '186. I never had any of those, but I did have one or two "multi I/O" cards for the XT, which assuming the processor upgrade was by "Orchid", would be what the "AST" manuals were for. Printer/serial, clock/calendar, that sort of thing. I got rid of all that stuff sometime in '92 when I upgraded to a '386DX though, so.... TTFN - Pete. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 18:43:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:43:31 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47437F33.1040101@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Ack! Yes, the keyboard looks painful. I don't think they envisioned > that people would actually type on this thing, more like hunt & peck. That has to be the 2nd worst keyboard I have seen. The 1st is any keyboard with 'windows' keys. Considering Videotex was ment as information setup it was more like press 1 to display ... 9 to return to menu type stuff. Ben alias woodelf From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 18:38:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:01 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071120162659.O55302@shell.lmi.net> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071120162659.O55302@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 16:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) Initially. A later version used the 286. The model 25 was, as far as I'm aware, always an 8086. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 20 18:49:26 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:49:26 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008101c82bd8$5db2fa40$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....but the 8088/86 was available as high as 20mhz IIRC, >or possibly even a bit higher.... Hmm, I don't ever recall seeing an XT running at anything like that sort of speed. Most "Turbo XT" motherboards which I saw topped out at 10MHz, though I have a vague recollection of hearing about a manufacturer which produced a 14MHz (or possibly even 16MHz) board and then had to quickly withdraw it due to MAJOR instability problems. If you wanted anything faster you generally had to go to a '286 or better. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 20 18:52:14 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:52:14 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <920549.76134.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008601c82bd8$c23e9230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....It also had an emulation mode for running 8080 code. I spent many happy hours running CP/M programs "under" MS-DOS on my V30 machine. Anyone remember the name of the program which facilitated this? TTFN - Pete. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 20 18:57:56 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:57:56 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Doubtless the 386SX board designs were low-budged also, which > probably figured into things. Some 286 vendors made a big thing of > the fact that a 286 could execute 16-bit real mode code substantially > faster than the 386SX. For example: > > http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an121.pdf > > On the other hand, the 386SX could execute 32-bit code. That is, if > you had any to run in 1989. You do need to consider that that "application note" was a marketing tool and the subroutines they designed for the application note of course will make heavy use of instructions that are faster on a 286 than on a 386SX. On typical 16 bit code I didn't see a significant difference on a cacheless 16MHz 286 and a cacheless 16MHz 386SX. I don't currently own a 386SX machine, so I can't give current benchmarks. ISTR that you could get a 386SX with an SRAM cache on the motherboard. I don't recall that on any 286 boards, but I'm sure someone else will point one out... Eric From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 19:01:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:01:14 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <008601c82bd8$c23e9230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <008601c82bd8$c23e9230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <474312DA.29332.35097C08@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 0:52, Ensor wrote: > I spent many happy hours running CP/M programs "under" MS-DOS on my V30 > machine. > > Anyone remember the name of the program which facilitated this? Nope. Haven't a clue. Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 20 19:05:46 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:05:46 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <200711201334.lAKDYxgr014790@floodgap.com> References: <20071120100316.GC31456@usap.gov> <200711201334.lAKDYxgr014790@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2007 5:34 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > On the other hand, the 386SX could execute 32-bit code. That is, if > > > you had any to run in 1989. > > > > There was plenty of 32-bit code being written in 1989... just not for MS-DOS. > > What about games, DOS/4GW, ... ? I got my 386DX in 89. Very few, if any, MS-DOS games relied on 32bit extenders at that point. It cut out too much of the market that still had 16bit processors. It would have been nice not to push so hard to have 635k low memory free in order to run the latest game. The most used feature of the 386 was V86 mode, and it was mostly used to free up memory for 16bit MS-DOS programs. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 20 19:33:30 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:33:30 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2007 11:34 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'd like to see an 80286 to 80486 upgrade card. It would need to somehow > > I have one. It's currently running in the machine I am typing this on. > > It's a little module with a TI 486-compatile processor on one side and, > IIRC, the floating poiut coprocessor for it on the other (or at least > that's the only explanation I can find for 2 large PQFPs). A couple of > PLDs and a PLCC 'plug' to go into the 80286 socket. Is it a true 486? or a 486SLC (which is really a Cyrix 386SX with an internal cache and a couple of the 486 instructions included)? IBM and TI were second sources for the Cyrix processor. But it really wasn't instruction compatible with the 486, and most instruction timings were more 386 like than 486 like. It didn't work like a 486 especially where cache control was involved, even though it had 486 in the name. But the cache, and better integer multiply circuitry, made it significantly faster than a 386SX of the same clock speed. That is, assuming you could run the program to enable the cache, or had BIOS support for the cache. Cyrix also made a 486SRX2 which was clock doubled, as well as the 32bit versions, the 486DLC and 486DRX2 which would work in a 386DX socket. Anyway, the SLX or SRX2 (which have 386SX pinouts) would be much easier to adapt to an 80286 socket than a true 486 would be. Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 20 19:35:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:35:14 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <506802.57176.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <506802.57176.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47438B52.6030706@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > --- Alexis wrote: > >> You might run into an issue of minimum clock speed >> too. I don't know what >> the minimum for the 386/486 is. I know RISC >> microcontrollers can go down to >> DC, but the 8386/486 might not. > > Presumably the boards these things come with have > their own crystals. I would not expect a '486 upgrade > for a '286 to run at 8mhz or anything comparable (but > Tony could tell us). They did indeed. Which brings us to why these were stopgaps at best: The processing may have been faster, but the memory/bus interface was the same, so you were not truly getting the overall performance of the real machine (that's why the advertised benchmarks were careful to demonstrate how much faster the upgraded machine was compared to how it was before, and NOT to a "real" 386). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 20 19:36:59 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:36:59 -0000 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net><006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <00df01c82bdf$039dbe30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Indeed, and Seagate got sued for exactly this not too long ago: Interesting article, thanks. I hadn't realised flash memory vendors were pulling the same trick.... > Hopefully this "1MB = 1000000 bytes" rubbish the drive manufacturers >keep peddling will be over soon.... Agreed, but I think it's one of those things which rears it's ugly head every so often. :-( TTFN - Pete. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 20 19:38:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:38:59 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <008101c82bd8$5db2fa40$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <008101c82bd8$5db2fa40$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <47438C33.7030704@oldskool.org> Ensor wrote: > Most "Turbo XT" motherboards which I saw topped out at 10MHz, though I > have a vague recollection of hearing about a manufacturer which produced > a 14MHz (or possibly even 16MHz) board and then had to quickly withdraw > it due to MAJOR instability problems. I saw a 14MHz 8088 clone when I was in college in 1990. It was perfectly stable, which makes sense if you consider it ran at a clock division of 1... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 19:42:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:42:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <804732.5630.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2007 at 16:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for > sure) > > Initially. A later version used the 286. The model > 25 was, as far > as I'm aware, always an 8086. confirmed ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 20 14:44:33 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:44:33 +0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6bpm1d$4th0ig@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> > On Nov 20, 2007 11:34 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'd like to see an 80286 to 80486 upgrade card. It would need to somehow > > > > I have one. It's currently running in the machine I am typing this on. > > > > It's a little module with a TI 486-compatile processor on one side and, > > IIRC, the floating poiut coprocessor for it on the other (or at least > > that's the only explanation I can find for 2 large PQFPs). A couple of > > PLDs and a PLCC 'plug' to go into the 80286 socket. > > Is it a true 486? or a 486SLC (which is really a Cyrix 386SX with an > internal cache and a couple of the 486 instructions included)? IBM > and TI were second sources for the Cyrix processor. But it really > wasn't instruction compatible with the 486, and most instruction > timings were more 386 like than 486 like. It didn't work like a 486 > especially where cache control was involved, even though it had 486 in > the name. But the cache, and better integer multiply circuitry, made > it significantly faster than a 386SX of the same clock speed. That > is, assuming you could run the program to enable the cache, or had > BIOS support for the cache. > > Cyrix also made a 486SRX2 which was clock doubled, as well as the > 32bit versions, the 486DLC and 486DRX2 which would work in a 386DX > socket. > > Anyway, the SLX or SRX2 (which have 386SX pinouts) would be much > easier to adapt to an 80286 socket than a true 486 would be. > > Eric Eric and others: Ever you had IBM sourced 486 SLC/SLC2/SLC3? Far better than Cyrix/TI 486SLC wannabes. Cyrix/TI utilized 1K cache. IBM had 8K and 16K and much better optimizations. Cheers, Wizard From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 20 19:43:28 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:43:28 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071120162659.O55302@shell.lmi.net> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <920549.76134.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com> <20071120162659.O55302@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47438D40.8000100@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There were more 8086 mobos than you might imagine. Consider, for >> example, the Stearns PC. Since there was a CMOS 80C86 available >> before the 80C88, the 8086 also found its way into several laptops. > > Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) Originally, yes, and so was the PS/2 Model 25. A PS/2 Model 30/286 was released a bit later. My prized AT&T PC 6300 (rebranded Olivetti M24) was a 7.16MHz 8086 (clock was divided by 2) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 19:44:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:44:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <006c01c82bd7$04a27da0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <841010.99389.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hmmm, you know, it may have been an "Orchid".... I > definitely remember > having an Orchid manual in amongst some AST manuals > I kept in a little ring > binder. Come to think of it, the original Mac-286 boards were made by Orchid, then sold by AST (or was it the other way around?). I have 2 of these sitting in my pile. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 19:48:33 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:48:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47438C33.7030704@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <476129.74452.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Ensor wrote: > > Most "Turbo XT" motherboards which I saw topped > out at 10MHz, though I > > have a vague recollection of hearing about a > manufacturer which produced > > a 14MHz (or possibly even 16MHz) board and then > had to quickly withdraw > > it due to MAJOR instability problems. > > I saw a 14MHz 8088 clone when I was in college in > 1990. It was > perfectly stable, which makes sense if you consider > it ran at a clock > division of 1... Then it ran at 14.138..mhz (or something like that). I wasn't suggesting that PC-mobos were sold that fast, just that there were (or I thought there were) faster versions then that. I could swear they went up to ~20mc. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 20 19:53:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:53:06 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474312DA.29332.35097C08@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <008601c82bd8$c23e9230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474312DA.29332.35097C08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47438F82.8080404@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I spent many happy hours running CP/M programs "under" MS-DOS on my V30 >> machine. >> >> Anyone remember the name of the program which facilitated this? > > Nope. Haven't a clue. Cheeky bastard -- don't be so modest ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 20 20:00:54 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:00:54 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47439156.3000508@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > In 16-bit mode, I seem to recall that the 386SX was a travesty of a > CPU; a 16 MHz SX ran nowhere near as fast as a comparably-clocked > 286. I find that incredibly hard to believe, looking at the instruction timings for both processors. What are you basing this on? Memory timings? The only thing I can think of that might substantiate this claim is when you were working with 32-bit registers in 16-bit DOS. Each instruction needed a 66h or 67h prefix opcode to indicate 32-bit. This was wasteful on a 386sx because the 16-bit memory interface ate more time fetching the additional opcodes than you were saving by using 32-bit registers (!). A friend of mine wrote a 386 extender ("pmode", circa 1992) specifically to get the full use of his 386sx because he was royally cheezed when he learned of this. > Some 286 vendors made a big thing of > the fact that a 286 could execute 16-bit real mode code substantially > faster than the 386SX. For example: > > http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an121.pdf I don't think that's a fair comparison because that's not a system, that's a CPU variant (80C286). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Nov 20 20:17:18 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:17:18 -0500 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems Message-ID: <4743952E.7050001@compsys.to> When I run under Ersatz-11, John Wilson allows INSTALL EMEM.DLL (this was under V3.1 of E11 and hopefully soon with EMEM32.DLL under V5.1 of E11) to access many MegaBytes of PC memory via an IOPAGE register. For example: BaseReg = 177100 BaseRe2 = BaseReg+2 BaseRe4 = BaseReg+4 BaseRe6 = BaseReg+6 Mov @#BaseReg,R0 ;Get the current value from PC memory Mov R0,@#BaseReg ;Put the current value into PC memory BaseRe4 / BaseRe6 are used as a 32 bit address into the PC memory allocated during the INSTALL process. Under RT-11, direct access to the IOPAGE (address above 160000) is allowed even using VBGEXE by a reference to PREVIOUS DATA space. I have written FORTRAN IV/77 interface subroutines to allow a user to easily access that memory rather than use VIRTUAL arrays which are much slower and have much less capacity. I doubt that RSX-11 or RSTS/E allow a user access to the IOPAGE even via PREVIOUS DATA space. Can anyone confirm this assumption? Is there any fast method (only a few extra instructions) that would allow a user to reference a specific IOPAGE register from a user program? Are VIRTUAL arrays allowed in FORTRAN under RSX-11? If so, how is access to the MMU registers controlled and allowed? Johnny has helped with such RSX-11 questions in the past and the answers were appreciated very much! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From feedle at feedle.net Tue Nov 20 20:31:10 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:31:10 -0800 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BB24FE4-710A-4B31-8642-E41D30DB4410@feedle.net> On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Mark Meiss wrote: > It consists of a base unit that's somewhere around 13" x 11" x 4", > connected to a (fairly wretched) chicklet keyboard with a standard > 4-conductor telephone handset cord. The keyboard is powered by a > 9-volt battery. On the back of the main unit are connectors for > power, the keyboard, RS-232C (DB-25 female), composite video out, and > audio out. I had an AT&T SCEPTER terminal that was used with the Gateway service offered in Southern California from Times-Mirror/Pacific Telephone. It had a 1200 baud Bell 212-style modem built in. Also, the keyboard was infrared on the model I had. Here is a modern picture of it sitting on my TV, where it worked as a terminal to my Linux box. http://pics.feedle.net/v/Things/ATT_Sceptre01.jpg.html . The person who mentioned 1200/7E1 is dead on: the serial port on the machine (for whatever reason) requires 7 bits, even parity, one stop. It can't handle baud rates much over 1200 baud: at 9600, for example, it loses characters. Somewhere, I even had the original instruction/setup guide, but that may have been lost to the sands of time. NAPLS is a pain-in-the-ass protocol to deal with, BTW. Gateway was a killer service back in 1983. It was expensive, but it was a lot of fun. And I remember dialing up BBSes with the SCEPTER terminal when my C-64's power supply crapped out... From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 20 15:47:31 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:47:31 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <7BB24FE4-710A-4B31-8642-E41D30DB4410@feedle.net> References: <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6bpm1d$4thhdp@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> > On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Mark Meiss wrote: Mark, That pic is ultratec portable TDD, awesome unit, run long on batteries and keyboard even it is cliclet, it's not too bad to type on! One weakness on these is orange multiconductor ribbon cracks from so much flexing through 180 degrees of motion around the hinge in middle, my advice: keep it open forever, close it rarely. Owner of little bitty ultratec TDD with broken ribbon, someday I'll fashion new one. Cheers, Wizard From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 20 20:50:34 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:50:34 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:43:31 -0700. <47437F33.1040101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <47437F33.1040101 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > That has to be the 2nd worst keyboard I have seen. The 1st is any keyboard > with 'windows' keys. Whatever, dude. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 20 20:53:27 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:53:27 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:31:10 -0800. <7BB24FE4-710A-4B31-8642-E41D30DB4410@feedle.net> Message-ID: In article <7BB24FE4-710A-4B31-8642-E41D30DB4410 at feedle.net>, "C. Sullivan" writes: > stop. It can't handle baud rates much over 1200 baud: at 9600, for > example, it loses characters. In the 1979/1980 time frame we were overjoyed at the introduction of 1200 leased line modems connecting our terminals to the PDP-11/70 across town. I was the one who discovered that they would operate perfectly at 1800 baud -- a 50% increase! The lines were only rated for 1200. > NAPLS is a pain-in-the-ass protocol to deal with, BTW. These days you'd just do it in ROM code in a microprocessor and while the details of the protocol may be tedious, I'm sure even something like a lowly PIC microcontroller could keep up with it at 1200 baud. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 20 21:13:39 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 03:13:39 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <008601c82bd8$c23e9230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474312DA.29332.35097C08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002601c82bec$83c12a90$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Nope. Haven't a clue. "22Nice", thankyou Google. :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 20 21:38:12 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 03:38:12 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com><008101c82bd8$5db2fa40$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <47438C33.7030704@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <008101c82bef$f234bde0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I saw a 14MHz 8088 clone when I was in college in 1990.... You know, ever since I mentioned that V30 motherboard I've had something nagging at the back of my mind saying it ran at "14MHz"...? I wish I could remember for sure. >....It was perfectly stable, which makes sense if you consider it >ran at a clock division of 1.... Probably 16MHz boards then; ISTR it had something to do with bad board layout, rather than silicon being unable to keep up though. TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 20 23:20:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:20:39 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47439156.3000508@oldskool.org> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>, <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com>, <47439156.3000508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47434FA7.26009.35F6FCFA@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 20:00, Jim Leonard wrote: > I find that incredibly hard to believe, looking at the instruction > timings for both processors. What are you basing this on? Memory timings? Nope, the early 386 machines were pretty lame. Anyone else have the same experience with the SX vis-a-vis a 286? Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Nov 20 23:45:26 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:45:26 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071120162659.O55302@shell.lmi.net> <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2007 at 16:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) > > Initially. A later version used the 286. The model 25 was, as far > as I'm aware, always an 8086. Umm, if you're talking about the all-in-one Model 25 PS/2, I gave a 386 Model 25 to somebody on this list a couple of years ago. No upgrade, that's how it was manufactured. IIRC it had 4MB onboard and took one SIMM up to 8MB for a total of 12mb. It was last seen running DesqView X. Doc From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 00:21:27 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:21:27 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 62 Message-ID: <01C82BDD.0CD03E80@mandr71> -------------Original Message(s): Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:05:46 -0800 From: "Eric J Korpela" Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's On Nov 20, 2007 5:34 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > On the other hand, the 386SX could execute 32-bit code. That is, if > > > you had any to run in 1989. > > > > There was plenty of 32-bit code being written in 1989... just not for MS-DOS. > > What about games, DOS/4GW, ... ? I got my 386DX in 89. Very few, if any, MS-DOS games relied on 32bit extenders at that point. It cut out too much of the market that still had 16bit processors. It would have been nice not to push so hard to have 635k low memory free in order to run the latest game. The most used feature of the 386 was V86 mode, and it was mostly used to free up memory for 16bit MS-DOS programs. Eric ---------------Reply: And then there were the MMUs that gave your PC/XT/AT almost the entire 1MB for DOS, and up to 10MB or so of extended memory for running Unix, PC-MOS386 and the like on your XT (if you really wanted to)... m m From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 00:21:52 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:21:52 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal Message-ID: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:43:31 -0700 From: woodelf Subject: Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal Richard wrote: > Ack! Yes, the keyboard looks painful. I don't think they envisioned > that people would actually type on this thing, more like hunt & peck. That has to be the 2nd worst keyboard I have seen. The 1st is any keyboard with 'windows' keys. Considering Videotex was ment as information setup it was more like press 1 to display ... 9 to return to menu type stuff. Ben alias woodelf --------------- You're not really a big PC & Windows fan, are ya? The 'windows' key's never bothered me; how does it disturb you? m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 00:41:21 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:41:21 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71> References: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71> Message-ID: <4743D311.5060508@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > The 'windows' key's never bothered me; how does it disturb you? The fact that they are between CTRL and ALT makes it painful for the few games I have played that require use of such keys for say walk VS shoot. Tomb raider comes to mind here. Ben From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 00:47:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:47:26 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com>, <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 23:45, Doc Shipley wrote: > Umm, if you're talking about the all-in-one Model 25 PS/2, I gave a > 386 Model 25 to somebody on this list a couple of years ago. No > upgrade, that's how it was manufactured. IIRC it had 4MB onboard and > took one SIMM up to 8MB for a total of 12mb. You're right! There was a 25XT with the 8086, the 25 286 with a 80286 and the 25SX with a 386SX and room for 12MB memory. There was also a planar upgrade 7386 for the XT and 286 that had a 386SLC-20 CPU. According to the same web page, Reply Corp also made a planar upgrade board with a 486DX4-100. The same web page makes note of the "EduQuest" models that look like a 25, but apparently weren't sold as such. The top model can accommodate a Pentium Overdrive CPU. http://www.walshcomptech.com/ps2/m25stuf.htm Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 00:49:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:49:08 -0800 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <4743D311.5060508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71>, <4743D311.5060508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47436464.26993.3647FC57@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 23:41, woodelf wrote: > > The 'windows' key's never bothered me; how does it disturb you? > The fact that they are between CTRL and ALT makes it painful for the > few games I have played that require use of such keys for say walk VS > shoot. Tomb raider comes to mind here. Ben Never paid much attention to the presence or absence of a Windows key. Besides, it's not on my Model M. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Nov 21 00:55:54 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:55:54 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com>, <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4743D67A.3030303@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2007 at 23:45, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Umm, if you're talking about the all-in-one Model 25 PS/2, I gave a >> 386 Model 25 to somebody on this list a couple of years ago. No >> upgrade, that's how it was manufactured. IIRC it had 4MB onboard and >> took one SIMM up to 8MB for a total of 12mb. > > You're right! There was a 25XT with the 8086, the 25 286 with a > 80286 and the 25SX with a 386SX and room for 12MB memory. There was > also a planar upgrade 7386 for the XT and 286 that had a 386SLC-20 > CPU. According to the same web page, Reply Corp also made a planar > upgrade board with a 486DX4-100. So, here's the question I forgot to ask - how many PS/2 models had ISA slots? That 25SX did, but that's the only one I've seen. Doc From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 09:26:07 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:26:07 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRT006OQ9HBU4Y1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:47:51 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 19 Nov 2007 at 23:03, Allison wrote: > >> Actually it's teh other way around the 386 was more efficient than >> 286 for the same clock speed. > >In 16-bit mode, I seem to recall that the 386SX was a travesty of a >CPU; a 16 MHz SX ran nowhere near as fast as a comparably-clocked >286. Early 386 boxes were nothing to crow about in 16-bit mode--and >a 32-bit software base pretty much didn't exist early on--and the >386SX was limited to 16MB of external memory, just like the 286. Overall it was faster if the ISA bus was 16bits. problem was at that time the code had a lot of 8088 and 286isms in it so there was often no advantage other tha internally the 386 was bit faster. In practice and I have a SIIG 3000 box (386sx) with 5mb to test on the 386 was faster but going from 12 to 16 mhz is not a large increment. >Doubtless the 386SX board designs were low-budged also, which >probably figured into things. Some 286 vendors made a big thing of >the fact that a 286 could execute 16-bit real mode code substantially >faster than the 386SX. For example: Indeed. to save money in that still expensive ram there were a lot of wait states inserted to accomodate 85ns simms. That tended to sharply nullify any internal advantage. >http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an121.pdf > >On the other hand, the 386SX could execute 32-bit code. That is, if >you had any to run in 1989. ; there in lies the point. CPUs as we well know generally run ahead as Moore predicts with software lagging behind. However, in 1989 the 386 as a huge leap ahead and sometimes over the 286 that not every one had. I did that. I went from 8088/4.77mhz XT to INboard386/16 and from there to 486DX/33. However... I didn't "buy in" to the PC world until after the WWW as CP/M z80, PDP-11 and VAX wer faster, easier or on hand where the PC offered limited or no advantage. Allison >Cheers, >Chuck > From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Tue Nov 20 10:44:56 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:44:56 +0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: <682336.80312.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <4741D5D4.24487.30332191@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711201644.56199.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Tuesday 20 November 2007 16:41:20 Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Chuck > > (who also ruminates upon other cosmic questions--such as why the IDE > > for a PIC with 1K of memory is 64MB zipped...) > > Why IDEs exist at all is something that puzzles me. Every time > I've tried them, they've just gotten in the way! Depends what you're doing. If you've got more than a couple of files open, they're handy. If you're using ctags or something similar, they're handy. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 12:36:41 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:36:41 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRT006HYIAVUDD2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:43:02 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:03 PM, Allison wrote: >> I build with 6 and 10mhz z80s and 12mhz 8085s I have and theres >> little problem with finding static rams and Eprom (and EEprom) >> that can keep up. > > Did you say 12MHz 8085? Holy cow! Tell me more? I meant 6MHz, 12mhz crystal. However, even at 6 its fast. FYI I tried overclocking a 80C856mhz part and it was still doing well at 8mhz but I was seeing memory timing issues. You don't see the 6mhz parts too often. The usual is the 3 and 5mhz and usually the -5 (5mhz) will overclock to 6 with no real issues. At those speeds it's intereating as old 8080 software is now at 3X! Though a 10mhz Z80 is also a nice thing but the 85nS memory need is something to aware of. That short M1 read cycle preally beats up ram. Z180 is better and Z84S180s can be found as fast as 33mhz. Allison > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL >Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 > > From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Tue Nov 20 22:27:57 2007 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:27:57 -0600 Subject: Micropolis (was: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071119135640.N90458@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 11/19/07 3:58 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > Micropolis made excellent floppy drives. It is too bad that their hard > drives sucked. > > > Did anybody ever use their OS? (bundled with some of their 5.25" floppy > drives) > A few years ago I picked up an old laser show IMSAI 8080 system with Micropolis 5.25" drives and this OS (MDOS). It came with editor and assembler programs, so I've run it a couple of times to create an assembly language program to transfer the contents of the hard sectored floppies over serial line to a terminal program on my Mac for archiving. There were several included subroutines for accessing the drive that made the job easier. Richard Lynch From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Nov 21 02:22:21 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:22:21 +0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4743D67A.3030303@mdrconsult.com> References: <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> <4743D67A.3030303@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20071121082221.GA29027@usap.gov> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 12:55:54AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > So, here's the question I forgot to ask - how many PS/2 models had > ISA slots? That 25SX did, but that's the only one I've seen. My Model 30 did. When we outgrew the internal IDE-ish drive (it had a wide edge connector on the drive, to a 40+ pin connector on the planar), we didn't want to pay what IBM wanted for a larger drive, so we went with a 3.5" RLL of some flavor, with an ISA controller (DTC, perhaps?) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-Nov-2007 at 08:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -37.7 F (-38.7 C) Windchill -58.3 F (-50.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.0 kts Grid 74 Barometer 683.0 mb (10515 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 02:32:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:32:02 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRT006HYIAVUDD2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRT006HYIAVUDD2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <47437C82.7307.36A632C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2007 at 13:36, Allison wrote: > I meant 6MHz, 12mhz crystal. However, even at 6 its fast. > FYI I tried overclocking a 80C856mhz part and it was still > doing well at 8mhz but I was seeing memory timing issues. A third-party 8MHz 80C85 existed, the Tundra CA80C85B-8CP. Here's a databook for it: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/972187.pdf The nice thing is that they document the "undocumented" 8085 opcodes, calling them "extended". They don't mention that the original Intel 8085 had the same features... I've never had a Tundra part in my hellbox. Cheers, Chuck From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Nov 21 07:27:19 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:27:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXmate for Windows Message-ID: > VAXmate was a 286 clone, I forget if it was 100% pc or off by a little > from the PC AT. I used to have a VAXmate when it was actually in production, but it was just our home computer. It was 100% AT compatible, and ran just about everything fine DEC did skimp, however, on the graphics. It did not fully implement CGA. I beleive it would only display 8 monochrome shades, while CGA implemented a full 16 shades. While it was compatible with all CGA software, the display sometimes left something to be desired. The ridiculous form factor left something to be desired as well. I've never liked all-in-one designs. And the VAXmate's plastics and construction could best be described as "cheap." I think the idiotic door hiding the disk drive broke off after about a month of use. jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 21 07:46:55 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:46:55 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <4743D311.5060508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71> <4743D311.5060508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <474436CF.9060001@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >> The 'windows' key's never bothered me; how does it disturb you? > The fact that they are between CTRL and ALT makes it painful for the > few games I have played that require use of such keys for say walk VS > shoot. It is a pretty awful bit of design; you'd think manufacturers would have learnt something in so many years. I used to rip the Windows keys off my desktop keyboards so that I didn't catch them occasionally - unfortunately that's a bit difficult on this laptop, but I've got the left Windows key remapped to the pound symbol anyway (it's a US-built laptop). (Stupid laptop has no right-hand CTRL key, but the right-hand Windows key's a bit too far from the cursor keys to make it worthwhile remapping that one) Yeah, I know this is probably OT. I find it interesting though that we have keyboards for a generic system where some of the keys are specific to a single OS; particularly as the majority don't seem to actually use them anyway (can you buy a PC keyboard without them these days?). There's probably some interesting history as to why it came about... cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Nov 21 07:53:58 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:53:58 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com>, <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47443876.2080707@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2007 at 23:45, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Umm, if you're talking about the all-in-one Model 25 PS/2, I gave a >> 386 Model 25 to somebody on this list a couple of years ago. No >> upgrade, that's how it was manufactured. IIRC it had 4MB onboard and >> took one SIMM up to 8MB for a total of 12mb. > > You're right! There was a 25XT with the 8086, the 25 286 with a > 80286 and the 25SX with a 386SX and room for 12MB memory. There was > also a planar upgrade 7386 for the XT and 286 that had a 386SLC-20 > CPU. According to the same web page, Reply Corp also made a planar > upgrade board with a 486DX4-100. And there are a few hundred Model 25XTs on The Bay right now. Item 180111491285 - NOS, $30. Shipping unspecified. If the one I had hadn't had such a fishbowl picture, I might be interested. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 21 07:58:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:58:38 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers work... any recommendations for good books for learning the basics from? I think I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC manual, but I really don't recall now where I found out about the fundamental building blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates from at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but something US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a C64, but maybe it'd be better to start with something a bit more simple? i.e. probably something Z80 or 6502-based (just because there's more resources devoted to them), generic cassette data storage, basic video abilities etc. (You know, I don't recall seeing a 'how to introduce kids to vintage computing' thread on here before :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 21 08:03:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:03:14 +0000 Subject: TTL input Trinitron monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47443AA2.9020907@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I've found the Torch XXX hardware docs, which cover that little Trinitron > monitor I mentioend > > It's quite small, probably a 12" CRT. I think the small (cube-shaped) ones were more like 10", but then they also offered one they called a 13" (which probably was more like 12") that was a little less common. Both were made by Sony. (There was a Microvitec one too, with a DA15 as input, but I *think* that was only supposed to be used with the Quad-X) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 21 08:07:09 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:07:09 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200711211407.10183.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Wednesday 21 November 2007 13:58:38 Jules Richardson wrote: > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers work... any > recommendations for good books for learning the basics from? I think I > started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC manual, but I really > don't recall now where I found out about the fundamental building blocks of > [typical] computers and how a CPU worked. There must be a good 'classic' > "how computers work" type of book which avoids going on about PCs and > Xboxen... Depends how into it you want to go. I think I first realised how CPUs worked internally one night when I sat reading a PDP8 programming manual, probably when I was in my early teens. > I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits too > (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates from at > about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. Dare I say it, maybe one of the embedded microcontroller boards? When I was about 9 or 10 I was terribly impressed by seeing a project at a college open day where a small SBC was controlling a lightbulb and a fan to keep a box at a steady temperature. Gets too cold, turn the bulb on, gets too hot, turn the fan on. Amazing. Gordon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 08:36:12 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:36:12 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: <47437F33.1040101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > > That has to be the 2nd worst keyboard I have seen. The 1st is any keyboard > > with 'windows' keys. > > > > Whatever, dude. But see, it HAS to be bad if Microsoft does it. One little key, and the keyboard universe falls apart. Now when Symbolics engineers masturbated with their keyboard, adding Super, Meta, Hyper, Circle, Square, Triangle, Symbol, and so forth - well, that is uber-cool, and obviously intuitive to anyone using the system, with the engineers deserving heaps of praise. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Nov 21 08:36:22 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:36:22 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <47444266.20801@atarimuseum.com> There used to be a series of softcover 8.5 X 11 books called "How {x} Work" and there was version called exactly that - How Computers Work and it was essentially a very indepth illustrated walk through of computers, memory, the CPU, and so forth, it was a really nice series of books, you can buy it used on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/How-Computers-Work-Millennium-5th/dp/0789721120 Curt Jules Richardson wrote: > > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers > work... any recommendations for good books for learning the basics > from? I think I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC > manual, but I really don't recall now where I found out about the > fundamental building blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU > worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of > book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... > > I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits > too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates > from at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. > > I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but > something US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a > C64, but maybe it'd be better to start with something a bit more > simple? i.e. probably something Z80 or 6502-based (just because > there's more resources devoted to them), generic cassette data > storage, basic video abilities etc. > > (You know, I don't recall seeing a 'how to introduce kids to vintage > computing' thread on here before :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 09:00:57 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:00:57 -0500 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? In-Reply-To: <47406600.1329.2A965525@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20071118174408.052f9450@mail.threedee.com> <47406600.1329.2A965525@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > How do the Chinese resellers of IC "pulls" get their stock? Is there > a high-tech process for that also? I know little about this end of the business, other to know to stay away from it. Anyone that uses pulls in a production environment is asking for trouble. I bet they just have guys do it manually. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Wed Nov 21 09:12:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:12:00 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <200711211512.lALFCA01053617@billy.ezwind.net> One of our prize sponsors at VCF East was a company called Minds-On Toys (as a play of the phrase "hands-on") ... The owner, Tim Walker -- if I recall correctly -- went to MIT and studied all sorts of educational topics. He now sells the Digi-Comp replica. It is VERY easy to build and teaches kids about binary math. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 21 09:15:37 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:15:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Nov 21, 7 09:36:12 am" Message-ID: <200711211515.lALFFbv2014116@floodgap.com> > But see, it HAS to be bad if Microsoft does it. One little key, and > the keyboard universe falls apart. I believe the objection was its placement, not the presence of a Windows-specific key. I've certainly had trouble adjusting to a Windows keyboard after being used to not having anything between Ctrl and Alt. Even Macs don't disturb that. Command is to the side of that group, not splitting it up. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Advertising is the banging of a stick in a swillbucket. -- George Orwell --- From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 21 09:28:05 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:28:05 -0500 Subject: Old Supermac video card with a different video connection References: <200711211512.lALFCA01053617@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <004501c82c53$1d291b00$42aab941@game> Hopefully by saturday I will get a new batch of Apple mac Nubus video cards in. One of them should be a Supermac Thunder II GX 1600. The card has a video out that looks like the old SUN type ( 10 small pins and 3 large ones), anybody know if it is compatible with a SUN to VGA adapter? Thanks, TZ From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Nov 21 10:00:05 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:00:05 -0800 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <4743952E.7050001@compsys.to> References: <4743952E.7050001@compsys.to> Message-ID: Jerome, I can speak for RSTS with some authority, RSX with somewhat less authority. At 9:17 PM -0500 11/20/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >I doubt that RSX-11 or RSTS/E allow a user access to the IOPAGE >even via PREVIOUS DATA space. Can anyone confirm this assumption? Address space in the I/O page for RSTS jobs (processes) was not directly available. The APRs are always controlled by the OS. It MIGHT be possible for a privileged job to use PEEK/POKE SYS calls to access the I/O page in the way you suggest but it would be particularly difficult. RSX had a bit more flexibility (opportunity) in this regard. I believe you can set up a CRAW$ (create address window) directive in either Macro or Fortran to achieve the desired result. >Is there any fast method (only a few extra instructions) that would allow >a user to reference a specific IOPAGE register from a user program? See above. >Are >VIRTUAL arrays allowed in FORTRAN under RSX-11? Fortran-77, yes. Also under RSTS and RT-11. >If so, how >is access to the MMU registers controlled and allowed? For RSX, through the OTS and the task builder directives. John From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Nov 21 10:04:17 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:04:17 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711211532.lALFWHPv062189@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711211532.lALFWHPv062189@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0bbba42c3e870f830ef30470046bf365@valleyimplants.com> Perhaps not right now, but the biggest "leap forward" I had from books was looking at the 8080/Z80 microcomputer design and operation books (such as Ciarcia's "How to Build Your Own Z-80 Computer" and "Microcomputers and Microprocessors" (8080, 8085 and Z-80) from the hardware standpoint. Probably not a good book until Junior High or High School, though. When I was learning S/W, I remember starting with Logo in 4th grade and using Brainpower ChipWits at home. the ChipWits manual had a small section on programming theory, perhaps I can find it. That's a good game if you have an older Macintosh around (I had issues on machines with over 1MB of RAM - it was written for the 128K, 512K and XL per the disk. Some other people don't seem to have the issues, perhaps there was a revision). In middle school we moved on to BASIC (because it was in the ROMs of Apples). Perhaps not the ideal progression, but nowadays students in the elementary schools don't seem to be learning programming at all- it's more "how you use application software on the computer". In the early '90s Macworld had a 3-part article on how computers work that wasn't too in depth. If you want I can find it and scan it., but it's probably not too much more in depth than David Macaulay's "The Way Things Work" in the new edition. (actually it is) From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 10:14:15 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:14:15 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <7BB24FE4-710A-4B31-8642-E41D30DB4410@feedle.net> References: <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc@mail.gmail.com> <7BB24FE4-710A-4B31-8642-E41D30DB4410@feedle.net> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711210814g32fd7c43qeb625b38de277d67@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 20, 2007 9:31 PM, C. Sullivan wrote: > > . The person who mentioned 1200/7E1 is dead on: the serial port on > the machine (for whatever reason) requires 7 bits, even parity, one > stop. It can't handle baud rates much over 1200 baud: at 9600, for > example, it loses characters. > > Somewhere, I even had the original instruction/setup guide, but that > may have been lost to the sands of time. > > NAPLS is a pain-in-the-ass protocol to deal with, BTW. Well, I've now got Telix happily chatting back and forth with the thing using 1200/7E1, and all seems to be well, except that I can't seem to get it to display NAPLPS-encoded data. Supposedly, ESC % A should be the sequence for entering NAPLPS mode, but I seem to get silent disposal of the ESC character and an echoed % A sequence instead. It must not start up in a mode where it's prepared to hear the escape sequences. From mikelee at tdh.com Wed Nov 21 10:15:57 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:15:57 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <474459BD.8010800@tdh.com> This is actually one of the topics I'm most interested in. I gear my collection towards teaching and showing kids, as well as the nostalgic adults. Over the years, I've been surprised by some of the reactions, so I found it best to adapt to the interest level of the audience. For fundamental computing and electronics, it seems to be best to go back to the basics. A lot of the books available either go too much into the history of computing, or get into topics/details that quickly lose the interest of a kid. It seems to be best to relate something they are used to in modern day and work back to the origins. For example, a xbox, it's basically a computer, it has a CPU, hard drive, memory and then other "blocks" such as graphics processing, networking etc. Those are easy to relate back to "how it works." Basic I/O, what is actually on the game disk, how and what makes "online" work, and what the machine is doing in the background. This easily then can lead to small projects and some programming. From there it can be basic logic functions (AND/OR/NOT) and the simple concepts of programming and making things happen. Depending on the interest and geek level of the kid, there are many hobby books that explain this well. I don't know if "vintage" computers is the best way to start as I found a lot of kids (esp. 9yo) are turned off by "it's just old crap" But can easily lead into more of the origins. Something "new" is good to start. There are a good number of hobby kits like the BASIC STAMP now that can teach both the electronics and computing aspect, which then can lead into other things. A little simple micro-controller kit, with a little instruction on logic, electricity and electronics can go a long way. Making stuff, and making stuff happen is always a plus, so a soldering iron lesson with an interesting kit always works too. But once again, all depends on the interest level. Mike Lee Geek Museum A funny story with where things might lead: I got a rotary dial phone in my collection to use with an acoustic coupler. A four year old sees this, and has no problem with the phone, nor the rotary dial. He understood the concept it's just a different user interface, but what got him was that it was wired down. He had never seen a phone handset with a cord attached. So this lead to interesting show and tell about telephone technology to a four year old. Jules Richardson wrote: > > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers > work... any recommendations for good books for learning the basics > from? I think I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC > manual, but I really don't recall now where I found out about the > fundamental building blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU > worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of > book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... > > I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits > too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates > from at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. > > I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but > something US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a > C64, but maybe it'd be better to start with something a bit more > simple? i.e. probably something Z80 or 6502-based (just because > there's more resources devoted to them), generic cassette data > storage, basic video abilities etc. > > (You know, I don't recall seeing a 'how to introduce kids to vintage > computing' thread on here before :-) > > cheers > > Jules > From evan at snarc.net Wed Nov 21 10:17:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:17:00 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <200711211617.lALGHrm5063935@billy.ezwind.net> There is a good book called "The Chip" by T.R. Reid. Mostly it's the story of Noyce and Kilby (which is well-told and worth reading on its own), but there's a chapter for laypeople about how a chip actually adds two numbers together. Way too simple for cctalk'ers, but great for a 9-year-old. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Quinn Subj: Re: Teaching kids about computers... Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:09 am Size: 1K To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Perhaps not right now, but the biggest "leap forward" I had from books was looking at the 8080/Z80 microcomputer design and operation books (such as Ciarcia's "How to Build Your Own Z-80 Computer" and "Microcomputers and Microprocessors" (8080, 8085 and Z-80) from the hardware standpoint. Probably not a good book until Junior High or High School, though. When I was learning S/W, I remember starting with Logo in 4th grade and using Brainpower ChipWits at home. the ChipWits manual had a small section on programming theory, perhaps I can find it. That's a good game if you have an older Macintosh around (I had issues on machines with over 1MB of RAM - it was written for the 128K, 512K and XL per the disk. Some other people don't seem to have the issues, perhaps there was a revision). In middle school we moved on to BASIC (because it was in the ROMs of Apples). Perhaps not the ideal progression, but nowadays students in the elementary schools don't seem to be learning programming at all- it's more "how you use application software on the computer". In the early '90s Macworld had a 3-part article on how computers work that wasn't too in depth. If you want I can find it and scan it., but it's probably not too much more in depth than David Macaulay's "The Way Things Work" in the new edition. (actually it is) From evan at snarc.net Wed Nov 21 10:23:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:23:00 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <200711211624.lALGNwA2064874@billy.ezwind.net> And don't forget Lego Mindstorms! Doesn't teach the hardware but it is much more fun than I ever had in LOGO back in the fourth or fifth grade ... I forget which. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Lee Subj: Re: Teaching kids about computers... Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:17 am Size: 3K To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts This is actually one of the topics I'm most interested in. I gear my collection towards teaching and showing kids, as well as the nostalgic adults. Over the years, I've been surprised by some of the reactions, so I found it best to adapt to the interest level of the audience. For fundamental computing and electronics, it seems to be best to go back to the basics. A lot of the books available either go too much into the history of computing, or get into topics/details that quickly lose the interest of a kid. It seems to be best to relate something they are used to in modern day and work back to the origins. For example, a xbox, it's basically a computer, it has a CPU, hard drive, memory and then other "blocks" such as graphics processing, networking etc. Those are easy to relate back to "how it works." Basic I/O, what is actually on the game disk, how and what makes "online" work, and what the machine is doing in the background. This easily then can lead to small projects and some programming. From there it can be basic logic functions (AND/OR/NOT) and the simple concepts of programming and making things happen. Depending on the interest and geek level of the kid, there are many hobby books that explain this well. I don't know if "vintage" computers is the best way to start as I found a lot of kids (esp. 9yo) are turned off by "it's just old crap" But can easily lead into more of the origins. Something "new" is good to start. There are a good number of hobby kits like the BASIC STAMP now that can teach both the electronics and computing aspect, which then can lead into other things. A little simple micro-controller kit, with a little instruction on logic, electricity and electronics can go a long way. Making stuff, and making stuff happen is always a plus, so a soldering iron lesson with an interesting kit always works too. But once again, all depends on the interest level. Mike Lee Geek Museum A funny story with where things might lead: I got a rotary dial phone in my collection to use with an acoustic coupler. A four year old sees this, and has no problem with the phone, nor the rotary dial. He understood the concept it's just a different user interface, but what got him was that it was wired down. He had never seen a phone handset with a cord attached. So this lead to interesting show and tell about telephone technology to a four year old. Jules Richardson wrote: > > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers > work... any recommendations for good books for learning the basics > from? I think I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC > manual, but I really don't recall now where I found out about the > fundamental building blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU > worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of > book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... > > I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits > too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates > from at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. > > I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but > something US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a > C64, but maybe it'd be better to start with something a bit more > simple? i.e. probably something Z80 or 6502-based (just because > there's more resources devoted to them), generic cassette data > storage, basic video abilities etc. > > (You know, I don't recall seeing a 'how to introduce kids to vintage > computing' thread on here before :-) > > cheers > > Jules > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 21 10:28:38 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:28:38 -0500 Subject: Old Supermac video card with a different video connection In-Reply-To: <004501c82c53$1d291b00$42aab941@game> References: <200711211512.lALFCA01053617@billy.ezwind.net> <004501c82c53$1d291b00$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <2216A7A4-8542-4364-AFCA-032B853860CD@neurotica.com> On Nov 21, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Hopefully by saturday I will get a new batch of Apple mac Nubus > video cards > in. One of them should be a Supermac Thunder II GX 1600. The card > has a > video out that looks like the old SUN type ( 10 small pins and 3 large > ones), anybody know if it is compatible with a SUN to VGA adapter? The connector is called "DB13W3". I doubt it'll work with a Sun- >VGA adapter. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mikelee at tdh.com Wed Nov 21 10:30:14 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:30:14 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711211624.lALGNwA2064874@billy.ezwind.net> References: <200711211624.lALGNwA2064874@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <47445D16.7000508@tdh.com> Evan, great point, I forgot about those. I was amazed at how simple and advanced those kits can get. Great for electronics, robotics/mechanics and programming skills. And with some of these modern hobby toys, if the interest is there, the kids will seek out more info, leading into the origins, history and adapting easily to other platforms such as some of our favorite. Evan wrote: > And don't forget Lego Mindstorms! Doesn't teach the hardware but it is much more fun than I ever had in LOGO back in the fourth or fifth grade ... I forget which. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Lee > Subj: Re: Teaching kids about computers... > Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:17 am > Size: 3K > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > This is actually one of the topics I'm most interested in. I gear my > collection towards teaching and showing kids, as well as the nostalgic > adults. Over the years, I've been surprised by some of the reactions, > so I found it best to adapt to the interest level of the audience. > > For fundamental computing and electronics, it seems to be best to go > back to the basics. A lot of the books available either go too much > into the history of computing, or get into topics/details that quickly > lose the interest of a kid. It seems to be best to relate something > they are used to in modern day and work back to the origins. For > example, a xbox, it's basically a computer, it has a CPU, hard drive, > memory and then other "blocks" such as graphics processing, networking > etc. Those are easy to relate back to "how it works." Basic I/O, what > is actually on the game disk, how and what makes "online" work, and what > the machine is doing in the background. This easily then can lead to > small projects and some programming. From there it can be basic logic > functions (AND/OR/NOT) and the simple concepts of programming and making > things happen. Depending on the interest and geek level of the kid, > there are many hobby books that explain this well. I don't know if > "vintage" computers is the best way to start as I found a lot of kids > (esp. 9yo) are turned off by "it's just old crap" But can easily lead > into more of the origins. > > Something "new" is good to start. There are a good number of hobby kits > like the BASIC STAMP now that can teach both the electronics and > computing aspect, which then can lead into other things. A little > simple micro-controller kit, with a little instruction on logic, > electricity and electronics can go a long way. Making stuff, and making > stuff happen is always a plus, so a soldering iron lesson with an > interesting kit always works too. But once again, all depends on the > interest level. > > > Mike Lee > Geek Museum > > > A funny story with where things might lead: I got a rotary dial phone > in my collection to use with an acoustic coupler. A four year old sees > this, and has no problem with the phone, nor the rotary dial. He > understood the concept it's just a different user interface, but what > got him was that it was wired down. He had never seen a phone handset > with a cord attached. So this lead to interesting show and tell about > telephone technology to a four year old. > > > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers >> work... any recommendations for good books for learning the basics >> from? I think I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC >> manual, but I really don't recall now where I found out about the >> fundamental building blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU >> worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of >> book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... >> >> I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits >> too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates >> from at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. >> >> I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but >> something US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a >> C64, but maybe it'd be better to start with something a bit more >> simple? i.e. probably something Z80 or 6502-based (just because >> there's more resources devoted to them), generic cassette data >> storage, basic video abilities etc. >> >> (You know, I don't recall seeing a 'how to introduce kids to vintage >> computing' thread on here before :-) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> > > > > From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Nov 21 11:29:24 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:29:24 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers work... > any recommendations for good books for learning the basics from? I think > I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC manual, but I > really don't recall now where I found out about the fundamental building > blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU worked. There must be a good > 'classic' "how computers work" type of book which avoids going on about > PCs and Xboxen... > > I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits > too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates from > at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. It seems like you want to teach a number of different things. Although they interact, I think the learning of each is separable. There is the electronics aspect ... then there is the low level machine code and binary aspect ... then there is the higher level programming language aspect Which end to you want to start from? If you toss it in together all at once the task is much bigger to teach, and I think more confusing to learn. I'd say let it be dictated by your son's interest. Is he more interested in wires, batteries and lights? Or is he mathematically inclined and would get a kick out of learning binary? Or does he want the fastest path towards getting interesting feedback (in which case start with the higher level language). People frown on BASIC and hold their noses, but I think it isn't so bad as a first language; use a dialect that allows long variable names, has subroutines with local variables, etc, and it will be fine. If the machine has color graphics accessible from BASIC, you can very quickly get exciting visual feedback with short programs. Teaching C or PASCAL as a first language would test the patience of the typical 9 year old, what with having to declare everything before using it and having sophisticated but subtle syntax. If he takes a shine to programming, then introduce the cleaner, more powerful languages. Actually Python might fit the bill for both cases ... don't worry about the OO stuff and just use it as a simple language at first. If he wants to learn machine language ... you might consider the classic, CARDIAC, originally produced by Bell Labs. I don't know if it is still accurate, but just googled and as of 1998, you could still buy them new. The following page has some pictures of the unit and a description of using it, along with an address of where to buy it. http://www.larkfarm.com/cardiac_answers.htm It is a machine language, but decimal, so you can decouple learning binary from the concept of machine language. java cardiac simulator (I haven't tried it): http://sourceforge.net/projects/cinc My kids are a little bit too young for all of this (just turned eight), but I'd love to hear others' opinions for in a year or two it will be my turn. From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 11:37:15 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:37:15 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal Message-ID: <01C82C3B.679A09A0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> -----------------Original Messages: Message: 29 Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:15:37 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal > But see, it HAS to be bad if Microsoft does it. One little key, and > the keyboard universe falls apart. I believe the objection was its placement, not the presence of a Windows-specific key. I've certainly had trouble adjusting to a Windows keyboard after being used to not having anything between Ctrl and Alt. Even Macs don't disturb that. Command is to the side of that group, not splitting it up. ------------------------------Reply: Well, yes, obviously the location is the issue, but it is still just another tedious MS-bash; I've got an APL keyboard here, and I think every "classic" terminal or computer keyboard I have here is different in some "improved" way but I don't hear complaints about that, or all the different PC layouts, especially the enter, backspace and \ keys. I find the WIN keys quite handy, and since they're control-type keys the location actually makes sense to me; just part of the DOS>WIN adjustment. Don't you also have trouble switching from a C64 to a Mac? m From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 21 11:53:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:53:08 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:37:15 -0500. <01C82C3B.679A09A0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: In article <01C82C3B.679A09A0 at host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca>, M H Stein writes: > Well, yes, obviously the location is the issue, but it is still just another > tedious MS-bash; I've got an APL keyboard here, and I think every > "classic" terminal or computer keyboard I have here is different in > some "improved" way but I don't hear complaints about that, or all the > different PC layouts, especially the enter, backspace and \ keys. Exactly. Particularly since it was claimed that *any* keyboard with a Win key is the #1 awful keyboard. Give me a fsckin' break. There are plenty of keyboards that are much worse than that -- there are keyboards that require you to lift your fingers off the home keys in order to reach CTRL, for instance. Try that with emacs. There are plenty of keyboards that don't let you type lower case. And so-on. In addition, the tedious MS-bash was just tossed out there without any explanation of key placement until further elaboration was requested. I wouldn't have rolled my eyes had woodelf said something like "I don't like keyboards that put keys in between my CTRL and ALT keys, like the common placement of Win keys on newer PC keyboards". That's a grump about ergonomics, with Win keys given as an example not just yet another attempt to denigrate all things Windows. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 21 11:57:37 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:57:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: keyboard layouts was Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <01C82C3B.679A09A0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> from M H Stein at "Nov 21, 7 12:37:15 pm" Message-ID: <200711211757.lALHvbBH016458@floodgap.com> > Don't you also have trouble switching from a C64 to a Mac? Yup. Fortunately most of the emulators let you either use 64 or Mac layouts and map the keys appropriately. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- Hunter S. Thompson ------- From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 21 12:06:49 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:06:49 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711211806.49420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Wednesday 21 November 2007 17:53:08 Richard wrote: > I wouldn't have rolled my eyes had woodelf said something like "I > don't like keyboards that put keys in between my CTRL and ALT keys, > like the common placement of Win keys on newer PC keyboards". That's > a grump about ergonomics, with Win keys given as an example not just > yet another attempt to denigrate all things Windows. Of course we've ignored one important fact about keyboards with "Windows keys" - they're bloody awful. I could chew up and swallow a bag of yoghurt pots and excrete a less flimsy keyboard than the ones on sale these days. I scrounged a newish Mac keyboard for my PC at work - that's quite nice. I might get one for home because the clunketty-clack of m Model M (see, it was at least a little bit on-topic!) drives my fiance? nuts. Gordon From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 21 12:07:39 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:07:39 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711211307.39792.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 November 2007, Richard wrote: > In article <01C82C3B.679A09A0 at host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca>, > > M H Stein writes: > > Well, yes, obviously the location is the issue, but it is still > > just another tedious MS-bash; I've got an APL keyboard here, and I > > think every "classic" terminal or computer keyboard I have here is > > different in some "improved" way but I don't hear complaints about > > that, or all the different PC layouts, especially the enter, > > backspace and \ keys. > > Exactly. > > Particularly since it was claimed that *any* keyboard with a Win key > is the #1 awful keyboard. Give me a fsckin' break. There are plenty > of keyboards that are much worse than that -- there are keyboards > that require you to lift your fingers off the home keys in order to > reach CTRL, for instance. Try that with emacs. There are plenty of > keyboards that don't let you type lower case. And so-on. Despite the fact that I don't use emacs if I've got a choice, I always remap "Caps Lock" to be "CTRL" on my Model M's (along with swapping ~ and ESC). I also detest the stupid placement of <- and \, but at least the Model M has that right. Somehow, though, I've gotten used to using a Sun Type 6 USB keyboard at work, despite the bad key placement. If you use a keyboard long enough, you'll actually get used to its key placement just fine, no matter how annoying it is at first, I guess. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 21 12:07:24 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:07:24 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47439156.3000508@oldskool.org> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> <47439156.3000508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200711211307.25043.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 20 November 2007 21:00, Jim Leonard wrote: > The only thing I can think of that might substantiate this claim is when > you were working with 32-bit registers in 16-bit DOS. Each instruction > needed a 66h or 67h prefix opcode to indicate 32-bit. This was wasteful > on a 386sx because the 16-bit memory interface ate more time fetching > the additional opcodes than you were saving by using 32-bit registers > (!). This is one of the things that's always bugged me about those "extra" z80 instructions... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 12:00:02 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:00:02 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal Message-ID: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> -------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:31:10 -0800 From: "C. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Mark Meiss wrote: > It consists of a base unit that's somewhere around 13" x 11" x 4", > connected to a (fairly wretched) chicklet keyboard with a standard > 4-conductor telephone handset cord. The keyboard is powered by a > 9-volt battery. On the back of the main unit are connectors for > power, the keyboard, RS-232C (DB-25 female), composite video out, and > audio out. I had an AT&T SCEPTER terminal that was used with the Gateway service offered in Southern California from Times-Mirror/Pacific Telephone. It had a 1200 baud Bell 212-style modem built in. Also, the keyboard was infrared on the model I had. Gateway was a killer service back in 1983. It was expensive, but it was a lot of fun. And I remember dialing up BBSes with the SCEPTER terminal when my C-64's power supply crapped out... --------------Reply: Yeah, I have one of those (keyboards) somewhere in the pile and mine's IR as well, with the Gateway sticker still on the back. No worse than a PET to type on (if I had something to type to ;-) No Windows key either and not supported by Microsoft, so Woodelf would probably like it... m From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 21 12:11:16 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:11:16 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71> References: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71> Message-ID: <200711211311.16392.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 21 November 2007 01:21, M H Stein wrote: > The 'windows' key's never bothered me; how does it disturb you? They get in the way, when I'm trying to find either ctrl or alt keys... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 12:30:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:30:46 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <474408D6.23290.38CA59F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 13:58, Jules Richardson wrote: > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers work... any > recommendations for good books for learning the basics from? I think I started > out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC manual, but I really don't recall > now where I found out about the fundamental building blocks of [typical] > computers and how a CPU worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers > work" type of book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... What a wonderful question--and one very near to my own heart. Not that long ago, there was a survey performed by one of the trade rags (EETimes?) that asked the question. "Did you have any involvement with electronics as a hobby before you began studying engineering?" The results were quite startling--something like 96% of those surveyed said "yes". I'd probably start here: http://www.hobbyprojects.com/ to see what's currently available. Sadly, a lot of the training books from the 1960's can only be found in the used books market--and they were the best, IMOHO. But there are also some great gizmos to keep the interest going; the PicoCricket and the Fly Pentop immediately come to mind. Neither is a budget-breaker. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 12:31:37 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:31:37 -0500 Subject: keyboard layouts Message-ID: <01C82C42.F3404BC0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> ----------Original Message: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:57:37 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: keyboard layouts was Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal > Don't you also have trouble switching from a C64 to a Mac? Yup. Fortunately most of the emulators let you either use 64 or Mac layouts and map the keys appropriately. ---------Reply: There ya go. Like most of the bitching about MS, Windows, keyboards, etc. here and elsewhere, if you don't like it just shut up and use something else; lots of alternatives like Linux & KBs w/o WIN keys out there and we've heard it all K times. (Meant for the OP, not you Cameron). m From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 21 12:44:46 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:44:46 +0100 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <0bbba42c3e870f830ef30470046bf365@valleyimplants.com> References: <200711211532.lALFWHPv062189@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0bbba42c3e870f830ef30470046bf365@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <47447C9E.3060708@bluewin.ch> The Philips Videopac G7000 and G7400 gameconsoles have a game that emulates a simple microprocessor, in much the same way as the paper computers (Cardiac) work. Emulators are available. Jos From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 12:52:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:52:34 -0800 Subject: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <01C82C42.F3404BC0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C82C42.F3404BC0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <47440DF2.12941.38DE4DD5@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 13:31, M H Stein wrote: > Like most of the bitching about MS, Windows, keyboards, etc. here and > elsewhere, if you don't like it just shut up and use something else; lots of > alternatives like Linux & KBs w/o WIN keys out there and we've heard it > all K times. Well, yes--but what to do about physical key layout? I much preferred the "function key on the side" setup of the old XT keyboards--the keys were paired nicely and required less hand movement. I've still got a couple of old NCR keyboards laid out that way, but they're not going to last forever. Does anyone make a modern keyboard laid out with the along-the-side function keys? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 13:00:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:00:19 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47448043.30602@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: >> Well, yes, obviously the location is the issue, but it is still just another >> tedious MS-bash; I've got an APL keyboard here, and I think every >> "classic" terminal or computer keyboard I have here is different in >> some "improved" way but I don't hear complaints about that, or all the >> different PC layouts, especially the enter, backspace and \ keys. > > Exactly. I did ... see windows keyboards. But then I am cheap, I don't spend money on a real keyboard. Not that I have seen a modern keyboard I did like. > Particularly since it was claimed that *any* keyboard with a Win key > is the #1 awful keyboard. Give me a fsckin' break. There are plenty > of keyboards that are much worse than that -- there are keyboards that > require you to lift your fingers off the home keys in order to reach > CTRL, for instance. Try that with emacs. There are plenty of > keyboards that don't let you type lower case. And so-on. So where is your stock of classic keyboards? They only keyboards I can think of that are not lowercase today is your TTY's. Ben alias woodelf PS. No comments about where to buy a better keyboard... I am broke until after the new year. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 21 13:03:25 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:03:25 -0500 Subject: keyboard layouts References: <01C82C42.F3404BC0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> <47440DF2.12941.38DE4DD5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008a01c82c71$31a1c0f0$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:52 PM Subject: Re: keyboard layouts > On 21 Nov 2007 at 13:31, M H Stein wrote: > > > Like most of the bitching about MS, Windows, keyboards, etc. here and > > elsewhere, if you don't like it just shut up and use something else; lots of > > alternatives like Linux & KBs w/o WIN keys out there and we've heard it > > all K times. > > Well, yes--but what to do about physical key layout? I much > preferred the "function key on the side" setup of the old XT > keyboards--the keys were paired nicely and required less hand > movement. I've still got a couple of old NCR keyboards laid out that > way, but they're not going to last forever. Does anyone make a > modern keyboard laid out with the along-the-side function keys? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Northgate made keyboards with function keys on the top, left side, and both. A company clones those keyboards now and here is a link. http://www.ergonomicsmadeeasy.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=9&HS=1 A bit pricey, but if they are built like the original Northgate's they will last forever and can be repaired if needed. TZ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 13:03:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:03:54 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > > I had an AT&T SCEPTER terminal that was used with the Gateway service > offered in Southern California from Times-Mirror/Pacific Telephone. > It had a 1200 baud Bell 212-style modem built in. Also, the keyboard > was infrared on the model I had. > > Gateway was a killer service back in 1983. It was expensive, but it > was a lot of fun. And I remember dialing up BBSes with the SCEPTER > terminal when my C-64's power supply crapped out... > > --------------Reply: > Yeah, I have one of those (keyboards) somewhere in the pile and mine's > IR as well, with the Gateway sticker still on the back. No worse than a PET > to type on (if I had something to type to ;-) > > No Windows key either and not supported by Microsoft, so Woodelf would > probably like it... > > m > And coming in 3rd place for un-liked keyboards after chicklet ones is the membrane ones found on $99 or less computers. Not saying any names but they orginaly came from the UK. Ben alias woodelf From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 13:09:24 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:09:24 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <653a64ac0711201206w5a1007f4xe6194acf9c8dc1f7@mail.gmail.com> <653a64ac0711201336l77651845t6750b388c34521fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711211109q46b94f0eg792c217a2eb16a50@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 20, 2007 4:36 PM, Mark Meiss wrote: > > I've yet to crack the case, but based on a few scraps of information > I've seen, I think the CPU may be an 8085 -- clocked at what speed, I > don't know. The thing first retailed in 1983 for $900, soon cut down > to $600. As a follow-up to myself, the case has been cracked -- it's got an 8088 for the processor, with a 6845 for video output. Unfortunately, despite my attempted gentle touch, video output has gone out for the time being. It looks like a repair job for the weekend -- shouldn't be too difficult; the boards are easy to trace and everything is socketed or thru-hole. Interestingly, the ROMs are labeled as being from 3/85 rather than 1983, and there's an indication that the system may have been upgraded for 4800 bps operation. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 21 13:16:06 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:16:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> <4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20071121111450.K96787@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, woodelf wrote: > And coming in 3rd place for un-liked keyboards after chicklet ones > is the membrane ones found on $99 or less computers. Not saying any > names but they orginaly came from the UK. Well, there is a very nice doorstop wedge with a PICTURE of a keyboard on it, . . . From James at jdfogg.com Wed Nov 21 13:32:44 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:32:44 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2570FC@sbs.jdfogg.com> > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how > computers work... any recommendations for good books for > learning the basics from? I think I started out with a > Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC manual, but I really don't > recall now where I found out about the fundamental building > blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU worked. There > must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of book > which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... One weekend my parents wanted to get away from the kids so I went to work with my older brother. I was in a lab at P.R. Mallory Corp. with a supply of chips and a few books. Worked for me. At 12 I built an 8080a based something or another (I wouldn't call it a computer, but it had a bit of memory, a numeric keypad and 6 A/N LEDs for display). After that I had accounts on about 6 minis of the DEC and DG variety. Are you sure the kid is interested in computers or just trying to keep up with the alphageeks at school? From James at jdfogg.com Wed Nov 21 13:32:44 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:32:44 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2570FC@sbs.jdfogg.com> > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how > computers work... any recommendations for good books for > learning the basics from? I think I started out with a > Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC manual, but I really don't > recall now where I found out about the fundamental building > blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU worked. There > must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of book > which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... One weekend my parents wanted to get away from the kids so I went to work with my older brother. I was in a lab at P.R. Mallory Corp. with a supply of chips and a few books. Worked for me. At 12 I built an 8080a based something or another (I wouldn't call it a computer, but it had a bit of memory, a numeric keypad and 6 A/N LEDs for display). After that I had accounts on about 6 minis of the DEC and DG variety. Are you sure the kid is interested in computers or just trying to keep up with the alphageeks at school? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 13:44:52 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:44:52 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711211515.lALFFbv2014116@floodgap.com> References: <200711211515.lALFFbv2014116@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > I believe the objection was its placement, not the presence of a > Windows-specific key. I've certainly had trouble adjusting to a Windows > keyboard after being used to not having anything between Ctrl and Alt. > > Even Macs don't disturb that. Command is to the side of that group, > not splitting it up. It seems like the only people that complain about it are those that are looking for something to complain about. Microsoft, what an easy target... -- Will, Mac user not having any problems typing this on a Windows keyboard From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Nov 21 13:45:31 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:45:31 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <47447C9E.3060708@bluewin.ch> References: <200711211532.lALFWHPv062189@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0bbba42c3e870f830ef30470046bf365@valleyimplants.com> <47447C9E.3060708@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <2112E541-51DE-4B50-B49B-5D7CB83C3F09@colourfull.com> Jos, Which cart is that? Rob On Nov 21, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > > The Philips Videopac G7000 and G7400 gameconsoles have a game that > emulates a simple microprocessor, in much the same way as the paper > computers (Cardiac) work. Emulators are available. > > Jos > Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 21 14:14:44 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:14:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <47448043.30602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47448043.30602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711212017.PAA14291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > They only keyboards I can think of that are not lowercase today is > your TTY's. I don't recall seeing a computer keyboard that *is* lowercase, ever. Modern keyboards are generally connected to systems that map alphabetic keystrokes to uppercase and lowercase depending on other state, and have keys ("Shift") designed to provide that state, but the keyboards themselves have only one case of alphabetic key, and in every case I can recall seeing, that case is upper. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 14:28:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:28:21 -0500 Subject: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <20071119145317.M92219@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071119135640.N90458@shell.lmi.net> <47421281.5080407@jetnet.ab.ca> <20071119145317.M92219@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474494E5.1040808@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > The 2GB limit was due to MICROS~1 using a signed, rather than unsigned, > long integer. 'Course that did make it possible to have a file with > -2147483648 bytes :-) That was actually how some "disk expansion" software worked. They put a file in the filesystem with some negative size. The software functioned on the principle that, "there's a sucker born every minute". Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 14:38:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:38:01 -0500 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <20071119180518.E98276@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20071119180518.E98276@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47449729.8050803@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I don't think that there is any question that 102400 is >> >a totally indefensible, irresponsible, and ridiculous number >> >for defining a "Megabyte". > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Ensor wrote: >> You're quite right, the actual number is "1048576" or 1024KB. But that's not >> your point is it? > Yes, it is. > There are arguments for 2 ^ 20 (1048576) > There are arguments for 10 ^ 6 (1000000) > > But (10 ^ 3) * (2 ^ 10) (1024000) manages to combine the disadvantages > of both systems. And exactly what's stopping me from assuming a 4-bit byte when making my calculations? That "160GB" HDD suddenly becomes a "320GB" HDD. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 14:46:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:46:22 -0800 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711212017.PAA14291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <47448043.30602@jetnet.ab.ca>, <200711212017.PAA14291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4744289E.2063.39468283@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 15:14, der Mouse wrote: > I don't recall seeing a computer keyboard that *is* lowercase, ever. > Modern keyboards are generally connected to systems that map alphabetic > keystrokes to uppercase and lowercase depending on other state, and > have keys ("Shift") designed to provide that state, but the keyboards > themselves have only one case of alphabetic key, and in every case I > can recall seeing, that case is upper. I'm very happy that modern keyboards aren't like some of the old typewriters: http://www.typewritermuseum.org/collection/kbrd_writers/_ill/caligraph 21.jpg Still, the Caligraph No. 2 had only 72 keys; the keyboard I'm using to type this has something in excess of 100--and yet requires "mode" keys to obtain characters. If, on the other hand, modern computer keyboards had the same number of keys as an 026 keybpunch, I wonder what our human-computer interfaces would look like today. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 14:49:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:49:49 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711212017.PAA14291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <47448043.30602@jetnet.ab.ca> <200711212017.PAA14291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <474499ED.6070406@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > I don't recall seeing a computer keyboard that *is* lowercase, ever. > Modern keyboards are generally connected to systems that map alphabetic > keystrokes to uppercase and lowercase depending on other state, and > have keys ("Shift") designed to provide that state, but the keyboards > themselves have only one case of alphabetic key, and in every case I > can recall seeing, that case is upper. I stand corrected ... the only keyboard without a shift key I have seen is a TTY's. > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 14:56:47 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:56:47 -0700 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47437C82.7307.36A632C5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRT006HYIAVUDD2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <47437C82.7307.36A632C5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47449B8F.3060208@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2007 at 13:36, Allison wrote: > >> I meant 6MHz, 12mhz crystal. However, even at 6 its fast. >> FYI I tried overclocking a 80C856mhz part and it was still >> doing well at 8mhz but I was seeing memory timing issues. > > A third-party 8MHz 80C85 existed, the Tundra CA80C85B-8CP. Here's a > databook for it: > > http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/972187.pdf > > The nice thing is that they document the "undocumented" 8085 opcodes, > calling them "extended". They don't mention that the original Intel > 8085 had the same features... > > I've never had a Tundra part in my hellbox. I don't remember the 8085 having the same extended opcodes. > Chuck PS. Checks the web. Tundra is still around but they offhand don't seem to selling 80C85's anymore. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 14:57:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:57:59 -0800 Subject: keyboard layouts In-Reply-To: <008a01c82c71$31a1c0f0$42aab941@game> References: <01C82C42.F3404BC0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca>, <008a01c82c71$31a1c0f0$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <47442B57.9135.39512465@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 14:03, Teo Zenios wrote: > Northgate made keyboards with function keys on the top, left side, and both. > A company clones those keyboards now and here is a link. > > http://www.ergonomicsmadeeasy.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=9&HS=1 > > A bit pricey, but if they are built like the original Northgate's they will > last forever and can be repaired if needed. Thanks! I shot an email off to the maker asking if the keytops were double-shot molded. If anyone's interested, I'll report back on what they say. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 15:02:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:02:10 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <4744289E.2063.39468283@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <47448043.30602@jetnet.ab.ca>, <200711212017.PAA14291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4744289E.2063.39468283@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47449CD2.7030108@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Nov 2007 at 15:14, der Mouse wrote: > Still, the Caligraph No. 2 had only 72 keys; the keyboard I'm using > to type this has something in excess of 100--and yet requires "mode" > keys to obtain characters. If, on the other hand, modern computer > keyboards had the same number of keys as an 026 keybpunch, I wonder > what our human-computer interfaces would look like today. Umm a place for your tail. :) I am thinking of all the lines I read that start like "A monkey is banging at a 026 keypunch and .." > Cheers, > Chuck > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 21 15:02:37 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:02:37 +0100 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <2112E541-51DE-4B50-B49B-5D7CB83C3F09@colourfull.com> References: <200711211532.lALFWHPv062189@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0bbba42c3e870f830ef30470046bf365@valleyimplants.com> <47447C9E.3060708@bluewin.ch> <2112E541-51DE-4B50-B49B-5D7CB83C3F09@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <47449CED.7060509@bluewin.ch> Robert Borsuk wrote: > Jos, > Which cart is that? > > Rob No.9 "Computer programmer" A picture is below : http://www.videopac.nl/games/videopac/09/vpac_cover_009.php Jos From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Nov 21 15:22:16 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:22:16 -0800 Subject: Intro programming for kids (was: Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4744A188.8060501@mainecoon.com> Jim Battle wrote: [snip] > People frown on BASIC and hold their noses, but I think it isn't so > bad as a first language; use a dialect that allows long variable > names, has subroutines with local variables, etc, and it will be > fine. If the machine has color graphics accessible from BASIC, you > can very quickly get exciting visual feedback with short programs. > > Teaching C or PASCAL as a first language would test the patience of > the typical 9 year old, what with having to declare everything before > using it and having sophisticated but subtle syntax. If he takes a > shine to programming, then introduce the cleaner, more powerful > languages. Actually Python might fit the bill for both cases ... > don't worry about the OO stuff and just use it as a simple language > at first. At the risk of going utterly into the weeds on this one, we're having good luck with both Alice and Storytelling Alice (both available from http://www.alice.org) with our recently-turned six year old, despite the fact that Alice is aimed at high school/intro college programming students and Storytelling Alice at middle school students. The nice thing about Alice is that while it's decidedly object oriented programming, there's no tools to use, no syntax errors, no frustration. Objects are three dimensional things whose instances you drop into a world of your making (think trees, people, furniture, etc); most programming is done by drag-and-drop of methods although there are conditionals, looping constructs and variables as well as mechanisms to allow new method declaration, the creation of new classes and keyboard/mouse interaction. >From having never seen the tool it took him about 20 minutes to put together his first animated story, which in turn fascinated his three year old sister. The cool thing about it is that while he's learning the concepts and can take the training wheels off if and when he wants to (Alice is really nothing more than a pretty wrapper around Java) he doesn't really *know* he's learning the concepts. He's having fun and learning to program as a transparent side-effect. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 15:23:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:23:18 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47449B8F.3060208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JRT006HYIAVUDD2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, <47437C82.7307.36A632C5@cclist.sydex.com>, <47449B8F.3060208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47443146.2726.39685518@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 13:56, woodelf wrote: > I don't remember the 8085 having the same extended opcodes. > > PS. Checks the web. I went to Tundra's site initially, only to find their 80c85 in the "discontinued, no information" list. But I might as well reply "check the web": http://electronicerror.blogspot.com/2007/08/undocumented-flags-and- instructions.html The standard "undocumented" 8085 opcodes are exactly the same 10 described by the Tundra document as "extended instructions" (I don't count RIM and SIM--they've always been documented for the 8085). They've been mentioned at least a couple of times on this list also. The upshot of all of this is that Tundra "implemented" nothing except documentation of instructions that were always present. It would not surprise me to find that they licensed the mask from Intel all along. Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 21 15:23:26 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:23:26 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4742F514.16749.34952EDF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47425705.7010408@jetnet.ab.ca> <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <4742F514.16749.34952EDF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2007 2:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Nope--you can run 3.1 on a 286--in standard mode. That means no 32- > bit VxDs or other fancy stuff, but you can still play Solitaire. What exactly was the difference between "standard" and "enhanced" modes beyond the V86 environment for MS-DOS? Windows enhanced mode executables were still 16bits. It wasn't until Win32s that there was a 32 bit Windows execution environment for "consumer level" (read non-NT) windows. A 32bit file system didn't show up until Windows for Workgroups 3.11 Of course, you could run 32 bit DPMI MS-DOS apps under Windows 3.0 if you needed 32 bit executables. Eric From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 15:29:59 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:29:59 -0500 Subject: Keyboard layouts Message-ID: <01C82C5B.C41F70A0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> ------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:00:19 -0700 From: woodelf Subject: Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal Richard wrote: >> Well, yes, obviously the location is the issue, but it is still just another >> tedious MS-bash; I've got an APL keyboard here, and I think every >> "classic" terminal or computer keyboard I have here is different in >> some "improved" way but I don't hear complaints about that, or all the >> different PC layouts, especially the enter, backspace and \ keys. > > Exactly. I did ... see windows keyboards. But then I am cheap, I don't spend money on a real keyboard. Not that I have seen a modern keyboard I did like. -------------Reply: Different keyboard layouts have been a fact of life since the very first one that wasn't the same as a typewriter; deal with it. Find yourself an old one that you *do* like (if such a thing exists) and spare us your bitching and moaning. Back to our regular programming... m From grant at stockly.com Wed Nov 21 15:34:25 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:34:25 -0900 Subject: Fwd: My Relay Computer Message-ID: <0JRV00C9QLBQP1B0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:44:43 -0800 >From: Harry Porter >Subject: My Relay Computer >X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.912) >X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, > not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (ehlo.cat.pdx.edu [131.252.208.106]); > Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:45:33 -0800 (PST) >X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.1/4853/Mon Nov 19 19:05:00 2007 on >ehlo.cat.pdx.edu >X-Virus-Status: Clean >X-pstn-levels: (S:77.05695/99.90000 R:95.9108 P:95.9108 M:97.0282 C:98.6951 ) >X-pstn-settings: 3 (1.0000:1.0000) s gt3 gt2 gt1 r p m c >X-pstn-addresses: from [34/2] >Original-recipient: rfc822;grant at cmosxray.com > >As you may recall, I built a computer out of relays. > >My records indicate that, at one time, we exchanged email about this computer. > >I wanted to let you know that I have recently added to the webpage >for the computer. > >First, I added a thorough document describing the design in detail: > >http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/RelayPaper.pdf >http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/RelayPaper.htm > >Second, I produced an educational video, which can be accessed >through this page: > >http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/VideoTutorial/index.html > >The main page, with all the photos of the machine, is still at: > >http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html > >Be well, > >Harry Porter > >HarryAndMachine.jpg > > >RegCloseUp.jpg > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 21 15:39:19 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:39:19 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47434FA7.26009.35F6FCFA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com> <47439156.3000508@oldskool.org> <47434FA7.26009.35F6FCFA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Nope, the early 386 machines were pretty lame. Anyone else have the > same experience with the SX vis-a-vis a 286? That's an artifact of the design method for early cheap 386 motherboards, which consisted of a single step. Take a 286 motherboard and double the data bus width. It resulted in a 386 that spent all of its time waiting for the next memory access. Decent (not cheap) motherboards with a significant amount of cache and interleaved memory were much better. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 15:50:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:50:18 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: <47425705.7010408@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4742F514.16749.34952EDF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4744379A.30572.398109E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 13:23, Eric J Korpela wrote: > What exactly was the difference between "standard" and "enhanced" > modes beyond the V86 environment for MS-DOS? Windows enhanced mode > executables were still 16bits. It wasn't until Win32s that there was > a 32 bit Windows execution environment for "consumer level" (read > non-NT) windows. A 32bit file system didn't show up until Windows for > Workgroups 3.11 Well, yes and no. It was still possible to handle 32-bit memory tasks under Win31 without resorting to Win32S. I seem to recall quite a number of articles in WDDJ (or was it still PC Tech Journal then?) about doing this. Mostly, 386enh gave you the ability to run 32-bit virtual device drivers and use paged virtual memory. IIRC, the "standard" mode was usually faster for most 16-bit PM tasks than 386enh mode. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 15:51:05 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:51:05 -0500 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: <47449729.8050803@gmail.com> References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20071119180518.E98276@shell.lmi.net> <47449729.8050803@gmail.com> Message-ID: Whenever I see this argument come up, the first thing I think is that it really does not matter. Really, if looking at a file and megabytes will fit but mebibytes will not - you are too damn close to the edge anyway, and deserve to run into troubles. -- Will From dave at mitton.com Wed Nov 21 16:06:14 2007 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:06:14 -0500 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems Message-ID: <200711212206.lALM6Qi3020588@billy.ezwind.net> >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:17:18 -0500 >From: "Jerome H. Fine" ... >I doubt that RSX-11 or RSTS/E allow a user access to the IOPAGE >even via PREVIOUS DATA space. Can anyone confirm this assumption? >Is there any fast method (only a few extra instructions) that would allow >a user to reference a specific IOPAGE register from a user program? Are >VIRTUAL arrays allowed in FORTRAN under RSX-11? If so, how >is access to the MMU registers controlled and allowed? > ... >Sincerely yours, >Jerome Fine >-- Ouch, you're straining dead neurons.... As the KMC-11 Development Tools developer for RSX-11M and VMS, I know it's possible. I just don't remember the all the hoops we jumped through to do it. (this was circa 1978/79) The basic approach required us to map the IO registers and peek and poke values in the registers to control execution. Of course this was all written in MACRO-11, not un-manly FORTRAN. ;^) You probably had to be an RSX admin user ( UID below [10,*] ) to run the tools (loader and debugger). On VMS I had to learn the very new facility (I don't think it was in V1.0) of Page Frame Mapping and allocate a page map to get to UNIBUS IO space. This required a specific privilege too. I ported the tools code from Macro-11 to VAX Macro by doing semi- mechanical find/replace on the opcodes, and other tweaks. I even created a few macros to mimic the missing PDP-11 instructions, like SWAB. It needed very little needed rewriting to get working. Dave. From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 16:19:37 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:19:37 -0500 Subject: Falco Terminal Message-ID: <01C82C62.E8A4F100@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Speaking of keyboards etc.: Anybody have a use for a Falco VT5220e, as used by many DECcies whose budgets couldn't afford a 'real' VT200? Looks just like the picture of the Infinity (amber CRT) at: http://williambader.com/museum/vax/vaxhistory.html Might also have one of the older TS-100SPs somewhere (VT100). And a L-S ADM-11... Unfortunately, although I have boxes of Falco docs the 5220 manual seems to have gone missing from the pile (at least I haven't found it yet), although I do have docs for the ADM-11, and the TS-100 if I can find it. m From scheefj at netscape.net Wed Nov 21 16:22:52 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:22:52 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71> References: <01C82BDD.0DF53680@mandr71> Message-ID: <4744AFBC.5010105@netscape.net> We had a Videotex system for management that they were to use with their TV. It did not last long as I suspect none of them could figure out how to connect it to their television and then could not admit they had trouble. I never saw any of the screens - presumably they could only be deciphered by people at least 3 pay grades above me. The simple keyboard was appropriate to the target user, people who would not touch a regular keyboard. Jim M H Stein wrote: > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:43:31 -0700 > From: woodelf > Subject: Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal > > Richard wrote: > >> Ack! Yes, the keyboard looks painful. I don't think they envisioned >> that people would actually type on this thing, more like hunt & peck. > > That has to be the 2nd worst keyboard I have seen. The 1st is any keyboard > with 'windows' keys. Considering Videotex was ment as information setup > it was more like press 1 to display ... 9 to return to menu type stuff. > Ben alias woodelf > --------------- > You're not really a big PC & Windows fan, are ya? > > The 'windows' key's never bothered me; how does it disturb you? > > m > From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 21 12:33:54 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:33:54 -0000 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <200711212206.lALM6Qi3020588@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <001a01c82c6d$1515d970$4b04010a@uatempname> Dave Mitton wrote: > As the KMC-11 Development Tools developer for RSX-11M and VMS, I know > it's possible. > I just don't remember the all the hoops we jumped through to do it. > (this was circa 1978/79) There are a bunch of KMC manuals up on Manx. I cannot find my hardcopy right now, but many of those sorts of manuals of that era (i.e. Comms & 1980s) had sample PDP-11 code (sometimes for multiple Oss). So there's a chance that the various hoops are documented somewhere accessible .... > On VMS I had to learn the very new facility (I don't think it was in > V1.0) of Page Frame Mapping and allocate a page map to get to UNIBUS > IO > space. This required a specific privilege too. The specific privilege was PFNMAP ... Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.2/1143 - Release Date: 21/11/2007 10:01 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 21 16:32:25 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:32:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <0bbba42c3e870f830ef30470046bf365@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <733516.2129.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hehe, I too started with Logo when I was at school, but not for programming. It was used to control the "turtle" to move it about on the floor (and draw pictures?). I was only 4 at the time so I don't remember much else. Alot of the time at school on computers (BBC's) was spent with edutainment software designed for learning letters and keyboard skills. I also recall some safety software where we had to spot the problems in the picture (eg. a lamp plugged into a socket with the cable going straight across a doorway!) and use a lightpen and tablet to point them out. I also used Speak 'n' Spell to learn spelling and such, but I didn't learn any programming until my parents got me a Spectrum around 1990 (when I was 10/11). I wanted to make games after playing loads of table-top games by Grandstand (eg. Firefox, Scramble) among others. Although I understood the programming side (and was able to guess how things worked) I have only just recently started learning more about the hardware side. Learning about the copper (and the copperlist ) on the Amiga a couple of months ago has certainly enabled me to work out how alot of the old-school effects were done in classic arcade games (for me anyway) such as Outrun and Space Harrier. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Scott Quinn wrote: When I was learning S/W, I remember starting with Logo in 4th grade and using Brainpower ChipWits at home. the ChipWits manual had a small section on programming theory, perhaps I can find it. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 21 16:42:11 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:42:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711211515.lALFFbv2014116@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <408085.83830.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > But see, it HAS to be bad if Microsoft does it. One little key, and > the keyboard universe falls apart. I don't mind the Windows key (and it's presence is certainly welcome when running an Amiga emulator as it instantly substitutes for the Amiga key). However, I do hate the control key, as occasionally I hit it instead of the shift key (eg. when trying to type a capital letter) and activate an unintentional short-cut :( Infact, the only Windows short-cut I use are the cut, copy and paste ones. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 16:46:25 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:46:25 -0500 Subject: Apology Message-ID: <01C82C66.719781A0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> I've been chastised off-list for forgetting to change the subject header on a few recent posts from its digest default; for anyone else whom I've inconvenienced, my apologies and I'll be more careful in future. mike From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 16:52:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:52:13 -0800 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? In-Reply-To: References: , <47406600.1329.2A965525@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4744461D.8827.39B9BA52@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 10:00, William Donzelli wrote: > I know little about this end of the business, other to know to stay > away from it. Anyone that uses pulls in a production environment is > asking for trouble. Sometimes you just have to suck it in and do what you have to do. There aren't a lot of sources for NOS HTL or RTL or even DTL devices. If you're trying to repair a piece of equipment, you go to whoever can furnish the parts and hope you get a good one. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 17:22:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:22:12 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <920549.76134.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4744BDA4.3050501@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2007 at 14:47, Chris M wrote: > >> to what degree was it homebuilt? Do you mean simply >> assembled from parts? Who made the mobo if that was >> the case. I only know of 1 non-8088 mobo (of course >> there could have been others). > > The V30 was not an "upgrade" in the traditional sense--it was a pin- > for-pin CMOS replacement for the 8086. Because of some internal > architectural features, it ran somewhat faster than an 8086 of the > same clock speed and implemented many of the 186 instruction set > additions. It also had an emulation mode for running 8080 code. > > There were more 8086 mobos than you might imagine. Consider, for > example, the Stearns PC. Since there was a CMOS 80C86 available > before the 80C88, the 8086 also found its way into several laptops. Or the rather sizeable number of IBM PS/2 Model 25s and 30s. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 17:23:49 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:23:49 -0500 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <20071120153041.A55302@shell.lmi.net> References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <20071120153041.A55302@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4744BE05.3090903@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> There was Win3.0 (prolly same requirements) > 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used Not only that, it worked properly with a CGA. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 17:25:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:25:35 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <4742F83E.1407.34A18D38@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071120162659.O55302@shell.lmi.net> <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4744BE6F.7000404@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2007 at 16:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) > > Initially. A later version used the 286. The model 25 was, as far > as I'm aware, always an 8086. Nope. There was a 286-based one later, followed by a 386-based one (with 16-bit ISA and VGA instead of MCGA) even later. I heard about a 486-based one, but I doubt it was ever made as a complete machine, only as an upgrade planar. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Wed Nov 21 17:34:33 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:34:33 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711211806.49420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200711211806.49420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6323899F-F85A-4630-A81E-B4C789AEA9E3@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 21 Nov 2007, at 18:06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > .... > Of course we've ignored one important fact about keyboards with > "Windows > keys" - they're bloody awful. I could chew up and swallow a bag of > yoghurt > pots and excrete a less flimsy keyboard than the ones on sale these > days. Here, I've corrected your statement for you: Of course we've ignored one important fact about most modern keyboards - they're bloody awful... I have an IBM keyboard here with windows keys - it is at least as good as the Mac keyboard (assuming that was actually made by Apple) that you say you're using in your work PC (and, really, probably better). Of course, I've had this a few years, and perhaps IBM's (Lenovo's?) current keyboards aren't so good, but you can still pay 100 quid (that's c $200) for a keyboard if you want a good one. PCkeyboard.com offer buckling-spring models which feature the Windows key and which are "based on an award winning design, ... the same quality and crisp tactile feedback as their IBM predecessors"; if these are really as good as the model M, then I think there are few who would be unhappy with them; I find these prices to be surprisingly cheap. I'm sure you can alternatively get a top-of-the-range Cherry with Windows keys, and I'm got one old one of theirs here which I believe to be better than a model M. Back when my father bought his first "IBM-compatible" 286, he paid more than that for a keyboard, but in those days, so did everyone else - it was just one component in a c ?2000 package. Nowadays computers are cheap "commodity" items, and Walmart sell whole computer systems for $199. Are you surprised that the keyboards feel naff? I find the Windows keys pretty useful, being obliged to use Windows on a daily basis. All the keyboard shortcuts on Windows 2000 / XP and other Microsoft apps of this generation are well-panned & useful - I'm sure I've read that Microsoft conduct a good deal of usability research, hands-on with users. For those of us that like keyboard shortcuts a Mac is a VERY poor relation in this regard. Stroller. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 21 17:37:56 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:37:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <171452.91774.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Battle wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about > how computers work... > > any recommendations for good books for learning > the basics from? at the risk of making you hurl I guess, Inside the IBM PC by Peter Norton. I doubt you'd keep a 9 year old captivated starting him out with logic gates (of course some kids take to that though). You have to start *higher level*. This would give him a very satisfactory understanding of what's under the hood. I still don't know what goes on inside a cpu (nor most of the chips on a pc mobo). He goes into some low level little hacks, snooping out bios signatures, all that jazz. IMHO a wonderful first book. I didn't read it at 9, I was 19. Can't say if it's too advanced for a 9 year old. But y'all can read it together! Next book - IBM PC Assembler Language and Programming, Peter Abel FIRST EDITION. You cannot ask for a better text on assembler if you asked me (so you didn't ask me, well I done told you anyway!). Very righteous tutorial on binary. As for rudimentary gates and such, yer on your own. Nothing comes to mind, but there's tons out there. > I think > > I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its > BASIC manual, but I > > really don't recall now where I found out about > the fundamental building > > blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU > worked. There must be a good > > 'classic' "how computers work" type of book which > avoids going on about > > PCs and Xboxen... Phooee. PCs are arguably the best tools to learn on. It's such a vanilla architecture. Some earlier 8-bit UK and Yank machines wouldn't be a bad 2nd choice, but regarding media and such (he'll want to save programs remember) it couldn't be easier. You can stick a 3.5" HD drive in just about any peecee, even if it sees it as a 720k. Xbox1s are real cheap these days besides. As he moves up, get him Huang's "Hacking the Xbox". It's a great book in so many ways if you want to learn how to snoop/scope-out that sort of thing. > > I figure I should find him one of those kids > electronics projects kits > > too (I think that was where I got my first > exposure to logic gates from > > at about the same age) Or a breadboard and a bunch of parts from Radio Shack (if they still sell them). Forest Mimm's Engineer's Mini-Notebooks used to be a good way to learn how to throw some goofy circuits together (555 stuff, opto- stuff). You won't find them anymore though. Perhaps a 2nd hand store. If you're looking to teach solid theory, that's another matter (duh). > and also some old 8-bit > machine to play with. absolutely nothing wrong with that. But the pc is a venerable well documented architecture, and there are a few groovy boxes across the pond that break the mold somewhat to make it more interesting (hectic?). LIKE THE RESEARCH MACHINES NIMBUS! If you can find one. I can't. Frankly though, I don't see how an English home could be called one w/o Clive Sugar's 628?. And Yo, cassette tapes are still easier to find then floppy disks! > It seems like you want to teach a number of > different things. Although > they interact, I think the learning of each is > separable. That's why you should start at a suitable level of *abstraction* if you will. Learn about the innards from *a distance*. Don't get too deep (i.e complex) at the get-go. Boredom might set in. > There is the electronics aspect ... > then there is the low level machine code and binary > aspect ... > then there is the higher level programming language > aspect BASIC is a staple for the would be hacker... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 17:42:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:42:38 -0800 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <4744BE05.3090903@gmail.com> References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <20071120153041.A55302@shell.lmi.net>, <4744BE05.3090903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <474451EE.12436.39E7E47D@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 18:23, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> There was Win3.0 (prolly same requirements) > > 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used > > Not only that, it worked properly with a CGA. ...or Hercules mono. Anyone still use GEM for x86? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 21 17:58:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:58:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <4744BE05.3090903@gmail.com> References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <20071120153041.A55302@shell.lmi.net> <4744BE05.3090903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071121155210.A13786@shell.lmi.net> > > 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Not only that, it worked properly with a CGA. 3.10 would also work with CGA, but like all video modes, it was somewhat glitchy. It appears to me that 3.10 was written by people using 800 x 600. With a little playing around, it's probably not too hard to determine which video board they used. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 18:00:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:00:45 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <171452.91774.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net>, <171452.91774.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4744562D.14396.39F877D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 15:37, Chris M wrote: > Phooee. PCs are arguably the best tools to learn on. > It's such a vanilla architecture. Some earlier 8-bit > UK and Yank machines wouldn't be a bad 2nd choice, but > regarding media and such (he'll want to save programs > remember) it couldn't be easier. You can stick a 3.5" > HD drive in just about any peecee, even if it sees it > as a 720k. I'd probably start a young 'un with a PIC. They're cheap, easy to program and pretty much self-contained (no ROM, RAM or other chips to worry about). You can start with a little 12F629 and blink lights and even run a little motor. Move up to some of the PICs with more I/O pins and build clocks, do basic communications, drive an LCD display, run a robot, etc. Reprogrammable and rugged; can be programmed in assembly or C or BASIC. If the kid makes magic smoke with one or swallows one, no big deal. They'll run off of 3 or 4 AA cells, so no worry about dangerous line voltages. Programmers can be had for little more than the price of the ZIF socket on one. Tools are free for the downloading. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 18:04:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:04:09 -0700 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <474451EE.12436.39E7E47D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <20071120153041.A55302@shell.lmi.net>, <4744BE05.3090903@gmail.com> <474451EE.12436.39E7E47D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4744C779.50908@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Nov 2007 at 18:23, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> There was Win3.0 (prolly same requirements) >>> 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used >> Not only that, it worked properly with a CGA. > > ...or Hercules mono. Anyone still use GEM for x86? > > Cheers, > Chuck I had one application that used it. GEM I think is back as open source. Ben alias woodelf From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:03:30 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:03:30 +0000 Subject: VAXmate for Windows In-Reply-To: <0JRR006SRBUBI4Z2@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 19/11/07 14:23, "Allison" wrote: > If the VAXmates have the optional hard disk box mind the cooling if RD32 > (ST250? 40mb) as it ran very hot and tended to fail. The RD31 (st225 20mb) > was lower power, cooler and far more reliable. This is why I've kept some ST225s behind. I'm pretty sure both VAXmates are hard driveless, though I can't really speak for the boxed one as I've never really delved in further than below the top foam :) > If you make it operational the VAXmate was a PCSA(Pathworks) terminal > with Ethernet access to shared and private files on VAX/OpenVMS. The > result made it a very useful system. Typical VAXmate had 2MB of ram > some had 4, back then that was a large amount. Yep, the one I remember using was a PCSA terminal. This was shortly before we went through the sheer pain of a PCSA to LANMAN migration with Pathworks V5, that's a few weekends of my life I'm not going to get back, heh. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 21 18:11:53 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:11:53 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47434FA7.26009.35F6FCFA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>, <47422EB7.11763.318E5885@cclist.sydex.com>, <47439156.3000508@oldskool.org> <47434FA7.26009.35F6FCFA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4744C949.5010004@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Nope, the early 386 machines were pretty lame. Anyone else have the > same experience with the SX vis-a-vis a 286? Could you quantify "lame"? I used a 386sx-16 for years and it was always faster (visibly, not just via benchmarks) than the 12MHz 286 I had access to. If you're going to claim a 12Mhz 286 was faster than a 16MHz 386sx you'll have to provide some evidence... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 18:27:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:27:41 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4744C949.5010004@oldskool.org> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>, <47434FA7.26009.35F6FCFA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4744C949.5010004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47445C7D.2036.3A112018@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 18:11, Jim Leonard wrote: > Could you quantify "lame"? I used a 386sx-16 for years and it was > always faster (visibly, not just via benchmarks) than the 12MHz 286 I > had access to. My own experience was the opposite. I had a 16 MHz 386sx that was visibly *slower* than a 12MHz 286 that I also had. It was very cheap and eventually just quit working reliably all on its own. Perhaps that was an artifact of early SMT. OTOH, I still have a couple of 386DX systems that have worked flawlessly since the day I bought them. One uses DIP for memory; the other uses SIPPs. So, perhaps my own was a victim of bad design. I never was even tempted to purchase another, so bad was my experience. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:08:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:08:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <006c01c82bd7$04a27da0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Nov 21, 7 00:39:45 am Message-ID: > > to what degree was it homebuilt? Do you mean simply > >assembled from parts? > > Well yes, I assembled it from parts....considering how much I dislike PCs I > was hardly going to design my own motherboard. LOL! Oh I don't know. If you hate PCs so much, you should have designed your own motherboard, so you could haevve done things properly... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 17:59:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:59:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4742F514.16749.34952EDF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 20, 7 02:54:12 pm Message-ID: > On your other post, I think you're thinking of the Cyrix Cx486SLC. > 486 instruction set with all the limitations of the 386SX--small bus > width, no math coprocessor, 16MB of addressability. Fabbed by TI, I > believe. I suspect that is what's one the kludgeboard in this machine. It would make sense for a chip to go in place of an 80286, with only 24 address pins and 16 data pins on the socket. And there is certainly a sepearte maths comprocessor chip on the PCB too. Anyway, the only reason I stuck this board in was to run linux, and it does that with no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:28:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:28:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 21, 7 01:58:38 pm Message-ID: > > > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers work... any > recommendations for good books for learning the basics from? I think I started > out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC manual, but I really don't recall > now where I found out about the fundamental building blocks of [typical] > computers and how a CPU worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers > work" type of book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... Fristly a word of warning. There are far too many 'how computers work' type of books that oversimplify things, that miss out the interesting stuff, and which are impossible to understand as a result. I came across this with telephones, not computers. I read several books on 'how telephones work' and didn't understand them. They made no sense. Findally I found a copy of the famous 'Telephony' book (I didn't realise what it really was when I bought it), read that through and everything made sense. The reason is that 'Telephony' doesn't simplify things. It has complete circuit diagrams for telephone exchanges with every realy explained. The problem is that there are few good books on computer operation (and plenty of very bbad ones). I learnt a lot from the Philips P850 CPU techncial manual, and more from the PDP8/e and PDP11/45 manuals and printsets. But trying to understand those is really starting at the deep end. I think you need to start by deciding from which end to introduce computers. Do you want to introduce the kid to programming, and then start explaining how the machine runs the program. Or do you want to start off with transistors, then logic gates, flip-flops, and end up whith how procssors work. I took the second route, which probably explains my rather unconventional way of looking at computers. > > I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits too (I > think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates from at about the > same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. > > I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but something > US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a C64, but maybe I shouldn't need to tell you to get a BBC micro :-). It's probably the best educational machine ever designed. Some people dislike BASIC, but it has one great advantage as a teaching langues, the results are obtained almost instantly. If you have to explain how to run the editor, complier, linker, etc just to display 'Hellow World!' they your kid is going to lose itnerest very quickly. Much better to type 'PRINT "Hello World!" and hit and get the result back. And of course BBC BASIC is a particularly nice version with named procedures, local variables, built-in assembler, and so on. And the BBC has the user prod and analogue input port for very simple interfacing later. If you want to approach it from the hardware side, then I am not sure what to recoment. The machines I learnt on -- becuase that's what I had -- are niot the best choice. THe Philips P850 is plain weird (even if you could find one), the PDP11/45 is very complicated. It's a nice machine, but it;s not easy to uinderstand. A PPD8/e is fairly simple if you can find one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:02:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:02:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <506802.57176.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 20, 7 03:00:04 pm Message-ID: > Presumably the boards these things come with have > their own crystals. I would not expect a '486 upgrade > for a '286 to run at 8mhz or anything comparable (but > Tony could tell us). The answer to that is the same as Rutherford's comment on the only possile result of research in the social sciences, namely 'Some do and some don't' :-) I have some upgrade oards that turn an 8088 into an 8086 or 80286-based machine. Those are ISA cards with a liead that plugs into the 8088 socket, and said boards certainly contain their own clock oscillators. On the other hand, the oard in this machine -- the 486SLC oard that goes in the 80286 socket, does not contain a clock crystal, it takes the clock signal from the 80286 socket. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:43:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:43:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711212017.PAA14291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 21, 7 03:14:44 pm Message-ID: > > > They only keyboards I can think of that are not lowercase today is > > your TTY's. > > I don't recall seeing a computer keyboard that *is* lowercase, ever. > Modern keyboards are generally connected to systems that map alphabetic > keystrokes to uppercase and lowercase depending on other state, and > have keys ("Shift") designed to provide that state, but the keyboards > themselves have only one case of alphabetic key, and in every case I > can recall seeing, that case is upper. If you mean that keyboards only have upper case glyphs on them, then I agree with you. I have never seen a keyboard with lower case printed on it. But there have been many keyboards that contain hardware to encode the keystroekes to ASCII, and some (most?) of those will output the upper or lower case character code for each key depending on the state of the shift key,. But some early oens didn't, they sent upper case only. I have an old ITT video terminal here ('old' meaning the video memory is shift reguisters...). Originally, the display section would correctly display upper and lower case ASCII characters, but the keybaord would only send upper case. There was a scheamtici n the technical manual for an optional modification to the keyboard (3 added TTL chips IIRC) to implelent lower case, shift lock, etc. I added it to mine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:46:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:46:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <474499ED.6070406@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Nov 21, 7 01:49:49 pm Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: > > > I don't recall seeing a computer keyboard that *is* lowercase, ever. > > Modern keyboards are generally connected to systems that map alphabetic > > keystrokes to uppercase and lowercase depending on other state, and > > have keys ("Shift") designed to provide that state, but the keyboards > > themselves have only one case of alphabetic key, and in every case I > > can recall seeing, that case is upper. > > I stand corrected ... the only keyboard without a shift key I have seen > is a TTY's. Actually all my TTY keyboardsd have shift keys. Of course some of them are labeleld 'LETTERS' and ''FIGURES' :-) But having a shift key doesn't mean the keyboard will send lower-case letters. The shift key might be used only to get things like the symbols over the digit keys, and letter keys may be sent in upper case whether the shift key is pressed or not. That ITT I mentioned in the last message was like that before I added the modification. -tony From rcini at optonline.net Wed Nov 21 18:54:46 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:54:46 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: All: As you all know from previous posts, I?m having trouble with the drive system on my IMSAI. While I wait to receive a memory board and some other stuff from a friend of mine, Herb Johnson gave me some new energy in looking at the existing iCOM Frugal Floppy system. This system uses Pertec FD400 drives. One works perfectly, the other one has consistent CRC errors as evidenced by the CRC light on the drive cabinet, and BDOS errors reported by CP/M. I ensured that the spindle is engaging the diskette hub, and I also cleaned the heads using a wet cleaning diskette. Is there any common failure mode on this model of drive that I should start tracking down? I looked over the maintenance procedures for the drive and many if the tests allude to a diagnostics program that can manually control the spindle and head stepping. None of the iCOM manuals I have provide diagnostics code for manually controlling the drives in this manner. Before I start coding, does anyone have diagnostics code I can use? I found some code in the SIGM archive (for the iCOM 3712 controller) but it doesn?t seem to work properly with this controller. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 19:08:08 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:08:08 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4744D678.1080701@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Actually all my TTY keyboardsd have shift keys. Of course some of them > are labeleld 'LETTERS' and ''FIGURES' :-) It figures :-) > -tony From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Nov 21 19:08:21 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:08:21 +0000 Subject: Keyboard and case (was Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal) In-Reply-To: References: <200711212017.PAA14291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20071122010821.GA20143@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 22, 2007 at 12:43:27AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > If you mean that keyboards only have upper case glyphs on them, then I > agree with you. I have never seen a keyboard with lower case printed on it. Did the 3Com Audrey have lower-case glyphs? So much of it was meant to be "friendly" that I have a vague memory that they were avoiding the stern and authoritarian "shouting" of caps. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Nov-2007 at 01:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -36.2 F (-37.9 C) Windchill -58.6 F (-50.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.2 kts Grid 60 Barometer 685.1 mb (10436 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 21 19:12:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:12:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <851445.96175.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> someone said something about a pic. Thing is you'll be writing the code for it on a pc, and transferring it via serial cable, no? I do like the single-board approach. But something to which you could interface a terminal at least. All this is getting very involved for an introduction no doubt. But there is a project in Radio Electronics that I've mentioned many times. It's a single-board "robot brain" that except for expansion slots, is a full fledged peecee mobo (more or less, don't count on 100% compatibility). You have to use a terminal with it (I think, unless it's meant to have it's warez downloaded like a pic). After the necessary introductory material (which in itself could take many months I guess) imagine a kid building (w/dad) a working controller. I guess you could do this with a much simpler architecture though (and greatly increase the chance of success! given the usual pitfalls). Yeah, I like the sbc approach with a terminal. More illustrative of what's going on. I sent for some toner-transfer sheets by which I hope to etch 1 or more boards for this project. The chips aren't as easy to find as they used to be, but they're around. The only oddball is a WD1770 or 1771, can't remember off the top of my head. I managed to scarf all (I believe) of the firmware from the original manufacturer (yes there was a commercially had equivalent by Vesta Tech.) so I'm good to go I guess. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 21 19:18:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:18:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4744BE6F.7000404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <142491.51330.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Nope. There was a 286-based one later, followed by > a 386-based one > (with 16-bit ISA and VGA instead of MCGA) even > later. get me one please > I heard about a > 486-based one, but I doubt it was ever made as a > complete machine, only > as an upgrade planar. whatever. can i have it ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 21 19:38:37 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:38:37 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <142491.51330.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <142491.51330.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711212038.37377.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 November 2007 20:18, Chris M wrote: > whatever. can i have it No. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 21 20:22:21 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:22:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711220229.VAA18963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But having a shift key doesn't mean the keyboard will send lower-case > letters. The shift key might be used only to get things like the > symbols over the digit keys, and letter keys may be sent in upper > case whether the shift key is pressed or not. Mmm, true. But then, many - probably most - keyboards don't send letters at all; they send scancodes of some sort. As far back as early Suns, at least, and probably farther, keyboards were sending small integer keycodes bearing no particular relationship to the values of the key-top characters in any character set, even if you consider just the character-generating keys. And of course there are things like electromech teletypes where the boundaries between the keyboard and the rest of the device are not nearly as well-defined as they are with a peecee - or a Sun-3 or a VT-100, which for these (very restricted) purposes are the same as a modern peecee. (Does a purely mechanical typewriter - remember them? - have a keyboard that sends letters? Or does it "send" an index value into the (mechanically stored) array of glyphs in the printing part of the mechanism? Is it fair to consider that index an encoded letter? Some interesting philosophical questions lurking.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 21 20:27:41 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:27:41 -0500 Subject: Windoze reqs Message-ID: <01C82C85.97B122A0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Message: 16 Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:23:49 -0500 From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: Windoze reqs To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4744BE05.3090903 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Fred Cisin wrote: >>> There was Win3.0 (prolly same requirements) >> 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used >Not only that, it worked properly with a CGA. >Peace... Sridhar -------- And the much higher def monochrome graphics cards commonly installed in the clones (no colour of course). m From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 21 21:20:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:20:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <200711212038.37377.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <387421.24277.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 21 November 2007 20:18, Chris M wrote: > > whatever. can i have it > > No. why not just cuz you want it doesn't mean it shouldn't be mine. it's all supposed to be mine. It's most important that i get the things I want. You can have the rest or throw it out ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 21 18:15:53 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:15:53 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47443876.2080707@mdrconsult.com> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com>, <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> <47443876.2080707@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4744CA39.3070907@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > And there are a few hundred Model 25XTs on The Bay right now. Item > 180111491285 - NOS, $30. Shipping unspecified. Mono, unfortunately. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 21 21:30:20 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:30:20 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47445C7D.2036.3A112018@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRS00K4ODSTY9B1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net>, <47434FA7.26009.35F6FCFA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4744C949.5010004@oldskool.org> <47445C7D.2036.3A112018@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4744F7CC.1050701@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Could you quantify "lame"? I used a 386sx-16 for years and it was >> always faster (visibly, not just via benchmarks) than the 12MHz 286 I >> had access to. > > My own experience was the opposite. I had a 16 MHz 386sx that was > visibly *slower* than a 12MHz 286 that I also had. It was very > cheap and eventually just quit working reliably all on its own. > Perhaps that was an artifact of early SMT. OTOH, I still have a > couple of 386DX systems that have worked flawlessly since the day I > bought them. One uses DIP for memory; the other uses SIPPs. > > So, perhaps my own was a victim of bad design. I never was even > tempted to purchase another, so bad was my experience. When I have my 12MHz 286 and my 16MHz 386sx on the same table, I will run benchmarks just to make sure the both of us aren't going crazy :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 21:47:44 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:47:44 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: rcini at optonline.net> > All:> > As you all know from previous posts, I?m having trouble with the drive> system on my IMSAI. While I wait to receive a memory board and some other> stuff from a friend of mine, Herb Johnson gave me some new energy in looking> at the existing iCOM Frugal Floppy system.> > This system uses Pertec FD400 drives. One works perfectly, the other one> has consistent CRC errors as evidenced by the CRC light on the drive> cabinet, and BDOS errors reported by CP/M. I ensured that the spindle is> engaging the diskette hub, and I also cleaned the heads using a wet cleaning> diskette.> > Is there any common failure mode on this model of drive that I should> start tracking down? I looked over the maintenance procedures for the drive> and many if the tests allude to a diagnostics program that can manually> control the spindle and head stepping. None of the iCOM manuals I have> provide diagnostics code for manually controlling the drives in this manner.> > Before I start coding, does anyone have diagnostics code I can use? I> found some code in the SIGM archive (for the iCOM 3712 controller) but it> doesn?t seem to work properly with this controller.> Hi As I've said before, if it is a belt drive, the surfaces have to be vary smooth. The Flywheel end is especially sensistive to all most invisible roughness. Feel it with your finger. You can sense even small roughness. Of course, check the speed with a strobe. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 From rcini at optonline.net Wed Nov 21 21:56:30 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:56:30 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought about the speed. It's a direct-drive DC spindle motor, not belt drive, in this model so I'll have to hunt around to see if there's a speed control pot somewhere. On 11/21/07 10:47 PM, "dwight elvey" wrote: > >> From: rcini at optonline.net> > All:> > As you all know from previous posts, I?m >> having trouble with the drive> system on my IMSAI. While I wait to receive a >> memory board and some other> stuff from a friend of mine, Herb Johnson gave >> me some new energy in looking> at the existing iCOM Frugal Floppy system.> > >> This system uses Pertec FD400 drives. One works perfectly, the other one> has >> consistent CRC errors as evidenced by the CRC light on the drive> cabinet, >> and BDOS errors reported by CP/M. I ensured that the spindle is> engaging the >> diskette hub, and I also cleaned the heads using a wet cleaning> diskette.> > >> Is there any common failure mode on this model of drive that I should> start >> tracking down? I looked over the maintenance procedures for the drive> and >> many if the tests allude to a diagnostics program that can manually> control >> the spindle and head stepping. None of the iCOM manuals I have> provide >> diagnostics code for manually controlling the drives in this manner.> > >> Before I start coding, does anyone have diagnostics code I can use? I> found >> some code in the SIGM archive (for the iCOM 3712 controller) but it> doesn?t >> seem to work properly with this controller.> > Hi > As I've said before, if it is a belt drive, the surfaces have to > be vary smooth. The Flywheel end is especially sensistive to > all most invisible roughness. Feel it with your finger. You can sense > even small roughness. > Of course, check the speed with a strobe. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From grant at stockly.com Wed Nov 21 22:08:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:08:06 -0900 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0JRW001MB3KWB2C0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 06:56 PM 11/21/2007, you wrote: >I thought about the speed. It's a direct-drive DC spindle motor, not belt >drive, in this model so I'll have to hunt around to see if there's a speed >control pot somewhere. The peak to peak voltage from the heads will tell if its a head problem. There are still places selling spare parts for those drives. From tsw-cc at johana.com Wed Nov 21 23:36:36 2007 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:36:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keyboards (in general) In-Reply-To: <200711212100.lALL0Z7w068918@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <687986.16538.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> woodelf wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > > > I don't recall seeing a computer keyboard that *is* lowercase, ever. > > Modern keyboards are generally connected to systems that map alphabetic > > keystrokes to uppercase and lowercase depending on other state, and > > have keys ("Shift") designed to provide that state, but the keyboards > > themselves have only one case of alphabetic key, and in every case I > > can recall seeing, that case is upper. > > I stand corrected ... the only keyboard without a shift key I have seen > is a TTY's. > > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > You are a bit mistaken. TTY's DID have shift keys. On the five level machines (28, 32, etc.) there was a LETR and FIGS shift. On later machines, like the 33 and 35, there was an actual key labeled 'SHIFT'. While it didn't make upper and lower case letters, it did take the alternate graphic on the keyboard. On the 33/35 machines, it used a "bit paired" sequence where the difference between the 'shift' and 'unshifted' code was 0x20. This led to some weird pairings like '+' and ';'. Some shifts were locked out (zero might have shifted to be space, and vice versa, but they were separate keys. Later model devices, Teletype 37 comes to mind, had both upper and lower case. Many early CRT terminals didn't have upper case letters either. The ADM-3 had lower case as an option. Some of the portable Silent 700's (I remember having one) didn't have lower case. Those that had lower case used 'miniature letters' not ture lower case. I'm sure there are other examples. Keypunches are another catagory. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 21 23:55:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:55:08 -0800 Subject: Keyboards (in general) In-Reply-To: <687986.16538.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200711212100.lALL0Z7w068918@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <687986.16538.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4744A93C.14034.3B3CE760@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 21:36, Tom Watson wrote: > You are a bit mistaken. TTY's DID have shift keys. On the five level machines > (28, 32, etc.) there was a LETR and FIGS shift. Hmmm, I recall that on my Model 15, it said LTRS. But this was not what we'd think of as a true shift (i.e. "dead" key). It actually sent a code to shift one way or the other. Hence, when sending a message, it was good practice to send LTRS LTRS LTRS just in case one or more instance got lost in the garble. Nothing like trying to read a message that's shifted the wrong way. :) > Many early CRT terminals didn't have upper case letters either. The ADM-3 had > lower case as an option. Some of the portable Silent 700's (I remember having > one) didn't have lower case. Those that had lower case used 'miniature > letters' not ture lower case. Many of the older terminals lacked lowercase, particularly those early ones used on 6-bit systems. In fact, operator's console displays lacked them (the CDC 6602/6612 didn't, even though it had a graphics mode). But then, most line printers commonly used trains that didn't have lowercase either (large character sets tend to print more slowly). On the other hand, it's much easier to produce an attractive uppercase display on something like an 8x8 grid. Good-looking descenders on coarse displays are very difficult to display passably. Some terminals just printed uppercase in a smaller font to give the idea of lowercase. What the heck, if the ancient Romans could do without them, why do we need them? >Keypunches are another catagory. I've never seen a keypunch that could print, much less punch lowercase without the operator resorting to multiple-punch mode. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 22 01:02:56 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:02:56 -0600 Subject: "intelligent" disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <20071119153413.S92219@shell.lmi.net> <006601c82b18$fb7ecda0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <20071119180518.E98276@shell.lmi.net> <47449729.8050803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <474529A0.8080404@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Whenever I see this argument come up, the first thing I think is that > it really does not matter. Really, if looking at a file and megabytes > will fit but mebibytes will not - you are too damn close to the edge > anyway, and deserve to run into troubles. Thank you. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Nov 22 01:21:49 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:21:49 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <4744CA39.3070907@oldskool.org> References: <00e601c82b2a$940f7180$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <47430D69.29840.34F43C06@cclist.sydex.com>, <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> <47443876.2080707@mdrconsult.com> <4744CA39.3070907@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47452E0D.9010601@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: >> And there are a few hundred Model 25XTs on The Bay right now. Item >> 180111491285 - NOS, $30. Shipping unspecified. > > Mono, unfortunately. That's a plus in my book, after working with that color 25SX. The screen on that thing made me want to tear my eyes out. I never figured out what it was, but it had a serious "fish-eye" distortion. Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 01:27:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:27:35 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071121082221.GA29027@usap.gov> References: <4743C5F6.6070908@mdrconsult.com> <474363FE.11120.36466D86@cclist.sydex.com> <4743D67A.3030303@mdrconsult.com> <20071121082221.GA29027@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47452F67.4070905@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 12:55:54AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: >> So, here's the question I forgot to ask - how many PS/2 models had >> ISA slots? That 25SX did, but that's the only one I've seen. > > My Model 30 did. When we outgrew the internal IDE-ish drive (it had a > wide edge connector on the drive, to a 40+ pin connector on the planar), > we didn't want to pay what IBM wanted for a larger drive, so we went > with a 3.5" RLL of some flavor, with an ISA controller (DTC, perhaps?) Any PS/2 with a model number lower than 50 had ISA. 25, 30, 35, 40, L40SX (sort of) and the PS/2 E (or model 33, I suppose). Probably one or two I missed. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 01:32:59 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:32:59 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711211624.lALGNwA2064874@billy.ezwind.net> References: <200711211624.lALGNwA2064874@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <474530AB.6020404@gmail.com> Evan wrote: > And don't forget Lego Mindstorms! Doesn't teach the hardware but it is much more fun than I ever had in LOGO back in the fourth or fifth grade ... I forget which. One word: CARDIAC. Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 22 02:53:45 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:53:45 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <6323899F-F85A-4630-A81E-B4C789AEA9E3@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> References: <200711211806.49420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <6323899F-F85A-4630-A81E-B4C789AEA9E3@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> Message-ID: <200711220853.45742.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Wednesday 21 November 2007 23:34:33 Stroller wrote: > On 21 Nov 2007, at 18:06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > .... > > Of course we've ignored one important fact about keyboards with > > "Windows > > keys" - they're bloody awful. I could chew up and swallow a bag of > > yoghurt > > pots and excrete a less flimsy keyboard than the ones on sale these > > days. > > Here, I've corrected your statement for you: > > Of course we've ignored one important fact about most modern > keyboards > - they're bloody awful... > > I have an IBM keyboard here with windows keys - it is at least as > good as the Mac keyboard (assuming that was actually made by Apple) > that you say you're using in your work PC (and, really, probably > better). > > Of course, I've had this a few years, and perhaps IBM's (Lenovo's?) > current keyboards aren't so good, but you can still pay 100 quid > (that's c $200) for a keyboard if you want a good one. PCkeyboard.com > offer buckling-spring models which feature the Windows key and which > are "based on an award winning design, ... the same quality and crisp > tactile feedback as their IBM predecessors"; if these are really as > good as the model M, then I think there are few who would be unhappy Hmm. They look interesting. I couldn't see anything about buckling-spring keyboards, but I might not have been looking hard enough. The idea of custom keycaps sounds good - the Windows Objectors could get alternate logos on their Windows keys. > Back when my father bought his first "IBM-compatible" 286, he paid > more than that for a keyboard, but in those days, so did everyone > else - it was just one component in a c ?2000 package. Nowadays > computers are cheap "commodity" items, and Walmart sell whole > computer systems for $199. Are you surprised that the keyboards feel > naff? You could (as of 2006) buy new Model Ms as an IBM spare part - I don't have the reference number handy, but it was in the parts database. As you can probably imagine, they were Not Cheap. > I find the Windows keys pretty useful, being obliged to use Windows > on a daily basis. All the keyboard shortcuts on Windows 2000 / XP and I use Linux pretty much exclusively (the rest of the time I use NetBSD), and find the Win keys handy - you can always remap them to something useful if you're not using them as modifier keys. > research, hands-on with users. For those of us that like keyboard > shortcuts a Mac is a VERY poor relation in this regard. Not having much experience with Mac and even less experience with Windows, I'm not best placed to comment. But, they seem about the same to me. Going from Gnome or KDE to Mac OS X takes a bit of getting used to, mostly reaching for Splat-S instead of Ctrl-S to save ;-) I think that's as much OT as I'm going to get into. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 22 02:59:24 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:59:24 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711220859.24554.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 00:46:55 Tony Duell wrote: > But having a shift key doesn't mean the keyboard will send lower-case > letters. The shift key might be used only to get things like the symbols > over the digit keys, and letter keys may be sent in upper case whether > the shift key is pressed or not. That ITT I mentioned in the last message > was like that before I added the modification. Another that leaps to mind is the Canon Cat with its "Use Front" key. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 22 05:01:39 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:01:39 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744562D.14396.39F877D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net> <171452.91774.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <4744562D.14396.39F877D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711221101.39286.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 00:00:45 Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Nov 2007 at 15:37, Chris M wrote: > > Phooee. PCs are arguably the best tools to learn on. > > It's such a vanilla architecture. Some earlier 8-bit > > UK and Yank machines wouldn't be a bad 2nd choice, but > > regarding media and such (he'll want to save programs > > remember) it couldn't be easier. You can stick a 3.5" > > HD drive in just about any peecee, even if it sees it > > as a 720k. > > I'd probably start a young 'un with a PIC. They're cheap, easy to > program and pretty much self-contained (no ROM, RAM or other chips to > worry about). You can start with a little 12F629 and blink lights Meh. Get a big tube of the bigger ones. For what you pay in onesy-twosey quantities in Maplin etc, you can get a big bag of them from eBay. > and even run a little motor. Move up to some of the PICs with more > I/O pins and build clocks, do basic communications, drive an LCD > display, run a robot, etc. Reprogrammable and rugged; can be > programmed in assembly or C or BASIC. If the kid makes magic smoke > with one or swallows one, no big deal. They'll run off of 3 or 4 AA > cells, so no worry about dangerous line voltages. > > Programmers can be had for little more than the price of the ZIF > socket on one. Tools are free for the downloading. I'm actually planning on moving my own projects from PIC to Atmel AVR, because the Linux toolchain is better (and programmers are made of four resistors...) ob. on-topic - one planned project is an IDE-to-parallel bridge so I can hang some biggish drives off my PDP11. In theory I could just derive the control signals from the parallel interface myself, but if I can offload some of the command processing to an interface CPU then it might leave some cycles left for RT-11 to run. Remember when we talked about intelligent peripherals? Well, I make that a Z80 or similar in the drive (many modern IDE drives use a Dragonball or similar) and an AVR in the interface. Is it just me, or are things getting silly when it's cheaper and easier to program a microcontroller to just be a bunch of decoder logic than getting random logic to do it? Gordon From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Nov 22 05:14:41 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:14:41 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20071122111441.GA14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 01:58:38PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers work. Did he mean "how do computers work" or "how can I make the computer do what I want"? Probably the latter, in which case I suggest the best place to start is a generic Unixish machine with X11, and python. Help him write simple games like the one whose name I forget where you memorise sequences of colours. Move on to simple problem solving like mazes or sudoku. Only then, I think, would it be a good idea to move on to C, assembler, or hardware. I do advocate *adults* starting with an assembler and something simple like a 6502 or 6809, but not children. They'll just get frustrated at how much work is involved to make anything exciting happen. When I was a wee brat, I started with BASIC. I very much doubt I'd have any interest in computing now if I'd been made to start with assembler or a soldering iron. -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life -- Samuel Johnson From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Nov 22 05:29:47 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:29:47 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <171452.91774.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net> <171452.91774.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 03:37:56PM -0800, Chris M wrote: > Next book - IBM PC Assembler Language and > Programming, Peter Abel FIRST EDITION. You cannot ask > for a better text on assembler if you asked me (so you > didn't ask me, well I done told you anyway!). Very > righteous tutorial on binary. I've not seen that, but Zaks "Programming the Z80" is an excellent book. It's obviously a splendid reference, but it also makes a fairly good introduction to assembler programming and contains good implementations of common algorithms (like how to divide and multiply), fully commented and ready to copy into your own code. > That's why you should start at a suitable level of > *abstraction* if you will. Learn about the innards > from *a distance*. Learn about them *when you need to* and not before. -- David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence Godliness is next to Englishness From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 22 06:39:29 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:39:29 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711221239.29273.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 00:28:24 Tony Duell wrote: > The problem is that there are few good books on computer operation (and > plenty of very bbad ones). I learnt a lot from the Philips P850 CPU > techncial manual, and more from the PDP8/e and PDP11/45 manuals and > printsets. But trying to understand those is really starting at the deep > end. I think my "lightbulb moment" was with the SC/MP processor, really. Among a pile of junk that my Dad had salvaged from stuff getting binned at work was a manual for a Sinclair MK14. I never saw the board, but I still have the manual. Now, this looked like an interesting little project, so I set out to find as much as I could about it. The answer turned out to be "not much" - this was well before the Internet was such a pervasive thing. A few scattered articles in old copies of Wireless World, and the manual. And that was about it. I had a very old (mentions drums and discrete transistor logic, and how modern integrated circuit techniques will soon be able to pack as many as 10 or 20 gates into a package no larger than a shilling), which mentioned the concept of a function decoder mesh. Hmm, I thought. Ok, so there must be a pattern. Now I knew from reading the Z80 opcodes in the back of my ZX Spectrum manual that there was a clear pattern - these bits meant "select a register", and so on. So I thought to myself, right, if I make a table of the opcodes in binary, there's only 256 of them at most, so it shouldn't take long, and then I might see the pattern. So then I sat down for an evening of quietish contemplation with the new PWEI album (Now for a Feast) and a glass or two of wine and a big fat A4 pad and some graph paper "appropriated" from the Maths classroom, and got to work. Before long I'd written out all the opcodes, worked out the binary patterns, and started to group them together. Aha! Now we're getting somewhere, I can see how *that* bit controls what the ALU is doing, *that* bit says whether it's a jump or an ALU instruction, and so on. Thus was Friday night spent, and I still have those random jottings and carefully-drawn tables. Saturday dawned wet and windy, so a nice day for staying inside. By teatime, I had a slow-but-workable SC/MP emulator, written in Turbo Pascal on an Amstrad PCW8256. Sunday was spent writing stuff to deal with the I/O (terribly slow). Then I lost interest in it, and found a greater interest in the girl sitting two desks over in my English class, as is often the way with teenagers. Heigh-ho. I still have it kicking around on 3" disks. I must dig the Amstrad out of the attic some time and see if they still work. Gordon From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 22 06:58:17 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:58:17 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <0JRW001MB3KWB2C0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: That's interesting -- who? The way that the service manual tells you to check the speed is the pulse width on a specific test point on the PCB. I was just going to use a laser tach on the spindle...but I have to get a tach first :-) On 11/21/07 11:08 PM, "Grant Stockly" wrote: > At 06:56 PM 11/21/2007, you wrote: >> I thought about the speed. It's a direct-drive DC spindle motor, not belt >> drive, in this model so I'll have to hunt around to see if there's a speed >> control pot somewhere. > > The peak to peak voltage from the heads will tell if its a head > problem. There are still places selling spare parts for those drives. > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From bqt at softjar.se Wed Nov 21 02:56:43 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:56:43 +0100 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <200711210247.lAL2lIT7051510@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711210247.lAL2lIT7051510@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4743F2CB.2050907@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" skrev: > When I run under Ersatz-11, John Wilson allows > INSTALL EMEM.DLL > (this was under V3.1 of E11 and hopefully soon with EMEM32.DLL > under V5.1 of E11) to access many MegaBytes of PC memory via an > IOPAGE register. > > For example: > > BaseReg = 177100 > BaseRe2 = BaseReg+2 > BaseRe4 = BaseReg+4 > BaseRe6 = BaseReg+6 > Mov @#BaseReg,R0 ;Get the current value from PC memory > Mov R0,@#BaseReg ;Put the current value into PC memory > > BaseRe4 / BaseRe6 are used as a 32 bit address into the PC memory allocated > during the INSTALL process. > > Under RT-11, direct access to the IOPAGE (address above 160000) is > allowed even using VBGEXE by a reference to PREVIOUS DATA > space. I have written FORTRAN IV/77 interface subroutines to allow > a user to easily access that memory rather than use VIRTUAL arrays > which are much slower and have much less capacity. > > I doubt that RSX-11 or RSTS/E allow a user access to the IOPAGE > even via PREVIOUS DATA space. Can anyone confirm this assumption? > Is there any fast method (only a few extra instructions) that would allow > a user to reference a specific IOPAGE register from a user program? Are > VIRTUAL arrays allowed in FORTRAN under RSX-11? If so, how > is access to the MMU registers controlled and allowed? > > Johnny has helped with such RSX-11 questions in the past and the answers > were appreciated very much! You assume correctly, in that normal, unprivileged programs cannot normally access the I/O page on a mapped RSX system. There are some different answers to how to do this in RSX. I'll try to keep it short. First of all, we have unmapped and mapped RSX systems. Unmapped systems don't use the MMU, so obviously you can access the I/O page on those systems. When we get to mapped systems, it gets trickier. First of all, privileged programs normally do have access to the I/O page. It's mapped in at APR 7 in D-space, unless you explicitly don't want it (that's something you specify when you do the task build (linking in RT-11)). Second, RSX manages memory in the form of partitions. Programs can map in memory regions which are located in partitions, as long as they have the right access privileges (they are protected by a normal protection mask, just as files). The system manager can create a special partition, which maps onto the I/O page, and then user programs can map in that region anywhere in their programs, and thus have access to the I/O page that way, if they want to. Virtual arrays in FORTRAN is mapped to a file unless I remember wrong, which means they don't have anything to do with the MMU. However, in RSX you can manipulate and remap your address space from a program if you want to. There are services in RSX to do that in a controlled way. You attach to a memory region, and then you map whatever part of that region to whatever part of your virtual address space you want to. But as I said before, in order to get access to the I/O page in this case, the system manager must have created a region which is located in the I/O page, and which users are allowed access to. With all this said and done, the "normal" way in RSX is to have a privileged program. After all, fooling around in the I/O page is likely something that "normal" programs shouldn't do, and for which privileges are a sensible way of distinguishing if a program may. I can't really say for sure about RSTS/E, but I think it's atleast somewhat similar to RSX. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Wed Nov 21 04:01:00 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:01:00 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <47437F33.1040101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47437F33.1040101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711211001.00744.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Wednesday 21 November 2007 00:43:31 woodelf wrote: > Richard wrote: > > Ack! Yes, the keyboard looks painful. I don't think they envisioned > > that people would actually type on this thing, more like hunt & peck. > > That has to be the 2nd worst keyboard I have seen. The 1st is any keyboard > with 'windows' keys. You don't find having a few spare "META" keys handy? I do... Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 21 06:26:39 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:26:39 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRU00E1WVU5RB91@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: Chris M > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:41:39 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >"I ran a Leading Edge model D (PC XT clone) with an >Intel Inboard-386. >It gave me 2MB ram and a 16mhz CPU (beats 4.77!) and a >bottleneck of >the 8bit ISA. However it ran winders3.1 and was a >whole lot faster >than the 4.77mhz V20. At the time it was far cheaper >than a real 386 >and much better than the 8088." > > 3.1 needed at least a 386, no? Actualy no. However it was so crippled in that mode it was near useless. It was really 386 minimum. There was Win3.0 >(prolly same requirements) and Windows/286. This >wouldn't get you the ability to run any of the above, >but the 8088/86 was available as high as 20mhz IIRC, >or possibly even a bit higher. I don't know what the >'186 capped off at (40mhz at least). > I thought you didn't like throwaway PCs Allison. What >did you finally do with that box? Let me guess, you >threw it away LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL As a matter of fact I kept the Inboard and tossed the D. Allison > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ >Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. >Make Yahoo! your homepage. >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 21 06:28:52 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:28:52 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRU00G78VXK17X9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:01 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 20 Nov 2007 at 16:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) > >Initially. A later version used the 286. The model 25 was, as far >as I'm aware, always an 8086. The model25 was 8088 powered and I think a few others of that series. Allison >Cheers, >Chuck > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 21 06:31:41 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:31:41 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRU000VCW29B2JE@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: "Ensor" > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:49:26 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi, > > >....but the 8088/86 was available as high as 20mhz IIRC, > >or possibly even a bit higher.... > >Hmm, I don't ever recall seeing an XT running at anything like that sort of >speed. The higest teh 8088 got in PC or clone was 12mhz. The faster parts appeared later and for the embedded cpu market. >Most "Turbo XT" motherboards which I saw topped out at 10MHz, though I have >a vague recollection of hearing about a manufacturer which produced a 14MHz >(or possibly even 16MHz) board and then had to quickly withdraw it due to >MAJOR instability problems. the biggest problem with XT and fast was teh ISA-8 bus was 8Mhz max and many older cards would get unhappy at another over that. So you set the bios for lots of waits slowing the system. >If you wanted anything faster you generally had to go to a '286 or better. more or less th case. Allison > > TTFN - Pete. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 21 06:32:42 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:32:42 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRU00HYBW488803@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:01:14 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 21 Nov 2007 at 0:52, Ensor wrote: > >> I spent many happy hours running CP/M programs "under" MS-DOS on my V30 >> machine. >> >> Anyone remember the name of the program which facilitated this? > >Nope. Haven't a clue. 22nice and there were a few others. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 21 06:34:57 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:34:57 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRU006F5W7PU0X3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:35:14 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chris M wrote: >> --- Alexis wrote: >> >>> You might run into an issue of minimum clock speed >>> too. I don't know what >>> the minimum for the 386/486 is. I know RISC >>> microcontrollers can go down to >>> DC, but the 8386/486 might not. Correct they are dynamic internally. The minimum clock is far slower than most would tolerate (under 1mhz). >> Presumably the boards these things come with have >> their own crystals. I would not expect a '486 upgrade >> for a '286 to run at 8mhz or anything comparable (but >> Tony could tell us). > >They did indeed. Which brings us to why these were stopgaps at best: >The processing may have been faster, but the memory/bus interface was >the same, so you were not truly getting the overall performance of the >real machine (that's why the advertised benchmarks were careful to >demonstrate how much faster the upgraded machine was compared to how it >was before, and NOT to a "real" 386). Some resorted to PLL chips top multiply the existing clock to something fast. Allison >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ >A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bqt at softjar.se Wed Nov 21 12:37:04 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:37:04 +0100 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <200711211800.lALI07ZV065142@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711211800.lALI07ZV065142@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1195670224.10153.47.camel@hq-tutus> ons 2007-11-21 klockan 12:00 -0600 skrev "John A. Dundas III" : > Jerome, > > I can speak for RSTS with some authority, RSX with somewhat less authority. > > At 9:17 PM -0500 11/20/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >I doubt that RSX-11 or RSTS/E allow a user access to the IOPAGE > >even via PREVIOUS DATA space. Can anyone confirm this assumption? > > Address space in the I/O page for RSTS jobs (processes) was not > directly available. The APRs are always controlled by the OS. It > MIGHT be possible for a privileged job to use PEEK/POKE SYS calls to > access the I/O page in the way you suggest but it would be > particularly difficult. I thought RSTS/E had some way of remapping the address space as well. Can't you remap parts of your memory to some shared region, for example? > RSX had a bit more flexibility (opportunity) in this regard. I > believe you can set up a CRAW$ (create address window) directive in > either Macro or Fortran to achieve the desired result. Yes with reservation. CRAW$ (create address window) is as a part of doing dynamic remapping of your address space. However, CRAW$ always required a named memory partition. You cannot create an address window to an arbitrary memory address. Also, the memory partitions have protections and ownership associated with them. On most systems, CRAW$ cannot get you access to the I/O page, simply because normally you don't have an address space and a partition associated with the I/O page. But if such a partition is created, then CRAW$, in combination with MAP$ would allow you to access the I/O page. The same thing can also be achieved even without CRAW$/MAP$, since you can specify mapping that your task should have already at task build time, with the COMMON and RESCOM options to TKB. Johnny From james at machineroom.info Wed Nov 21 13:18:07 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:18:07 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4744846F.5070805@machineroom.info> Jules Richardson wrote: > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers work... > any recommendations for good books for learning the basics from? I think > I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC manual, but I > really don't recall now where I found out about the fundamental building > blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU worked. There must be a good > 'classic' "how computers work" type of book which avoids going on about > PCs and Xboxen... > > I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits > too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates from > at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. > > I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but > something US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a > C64, but maybe it'd be better to start with something a bit more simple? > i.e. probably something Z80 or 6502-based (just because there's more > resources devoted to them), generic cassette data storage, basic video > abilities etc. > > (You know, I don't recall seeing a 'how to introduce kids to vintage > computing' thread on here before :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > An old ladybird book (just titled "Computers" IIRC) is a surprisingly good introduction! I believe they were also used in the MoD with a plain cover. From jeffj at panix.com Wed Nov 21 16:00:03 2007 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:00:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711210806.lAL86Q7H056655@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711210806.lAL86Q7H056655@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Re: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal (Richard) > http://steinbeck.ucs.indiana.edu/~mmeiss/sceptre/ Wow, those photos bring back memories! I was just thinking about those: a friend had one and google didn't help me. ebay lists Sceptre flat monitors (totally unrelated but a source for confusion). I have something similar: I think it's Zenith. A thick keyboard with the terminal inside the keyboard, it attaches to tv-as-monitor, phone line (internal modem). My Olivetti PR2300 spark-jet printer has line-drawing characters that I don't recognize. Was that intended for teletext/videotext? Yes, I bought it from the DAK catalog after reading the glowing ad how it was a wonderful printer for the low low price. Nowhere did it mention it was a ONE PIN DOT MATRIX PRINTER! It made the dots by creating sparks (ozone!) that fused the powder to form ONE DOT on the paper. Somewhere I have some floppy disks with teletext/videotext software so one could use a PC instead of a dedicated terminal. I remember the computer show around 1990 when several companies /truly believed that Videotex would be the future in the USA/ so they were trying to get customers and data-suppliers/stores online. Also being tried at that time: phones with built-in teeny terminals for folks who didn't want the cost or responsibility of a PC. Geez, those were re-invented how many times: as the CIDCO email only terminal, thin clients, Network appliances (I-opener), ... From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Nov 21 18:11:43 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:11:43 -0800 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <20071121155210.A13786@shell.lmi.net> References: <315795.1613.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <20071120153041.A55302@shell.lmi.net> <4744BE05.3090903@gmail.com> <20071121155210.A13786@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4744C93F.3050204@msu.edu> If I may ask, what was glitchy about video modes in Windows 3.1? I ran it at 640x480 for years without any obvious video issues... As an aside, I had Win95 running on EGA for awhile just as an experiment. On a 386sx-20 with 4mb ram on a 65MB Miniscribe MFM drive. It ran, but that's about the only good thing I can attribute to the experience ;). Josh Fred Cisin wrote: >>> 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used >>> > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Not only that, it worked properly with a CGA. >> > > 3.10 would also work with CGA, but like all video modes, it was somewhat > glitchy. It appears to me that 3.10 was written by people using > 800 x 600. With a little playing around, it's probably not too hard to > determine which video board they used. > > > > From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Thu Nov 22 03:33:52 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:33:52 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> <4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711220933.52357.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Wednesday 21 November 2007 19:03:54 woodelf wrote: > And coming in 3rd place for un-liked keyboards after chicklet ones > is the membrane ones found on $99 or less computers. Not saying any > names but they orginaly came from the UK. So, uhm, am I the only person here that actually quite *liked* the ZX81 keyboard? Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 08:03:40 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:03:40 -0500 Subject: VAXmate for Windows Message-ID: <0JRW0047OV0U6EQ6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAXmate for Windows > From: Adrian Graham > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:03:30 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 19/11/07 14:23, "Allison" wrote: > >> If the VAXmates have the optional hard disk box mind the cooling if RD32 >> (ST250? 40mb) as it ran very hot and tended to fail. The RD31 (st225 20mb) >> was lower power, cooler and far more reliable. > >This is why I've kept some ST225s behind. I'm pretty sure both VAXmates are >hard driveless, though I can't really speak for the boxed one as I've never >really delved in further than below the top foam :) Generally thy are. Theres a seperate underbox that adds the hard drive and controller. >> If you make it operational the VAXmate was a PCSA(Pathworks) terminal >> with Ethernet access to shared and private files on VAX/OpenVMS. The >> result made it a very useful system. Typical VAXmate had 2MB of ram >> some had 4, back then that was a large amount. > >Yep, the one I remember using was a PCSA terminal. This was shortly before >we went through the sheer pain of a PCSA to LANMAN migration with Pathworks >V5, that's a few weekends of my life I'm not going to get back, heh. It was during my time at DEC and they wer like flies there. I still have kits for PCSAV4 and V5. Allison > >-- >Adrian/Witchy >Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >collection? > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 08:11:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:11:31 -0500 Subject: Windoze reqs Message-ID: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Windoze reqs > From: Josh Dersch > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:11:43 -0800 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >If I may ask, what was glitchy about video modes in Windows 3.1? I ran >it at 640x480 for years without any obvious video issues... Same here, I still have a copy running on a laptop at that resolution. >As an aside, I had Win95 running on EGA for awhile just as an >experiment. On a 386sx-20 with 4mb ram on a 65MB Miniscribe MFM drive. >It ran, but that's about the only good thing I can attribute to the >experience ;). Not enough ram, at 8mb it become moderately useful. I used to make headless print network servers that way. Install 95B, strip out OE/IE and cruft install laser printer driver put on net. It usually fits well in 100MB. Prefered CPU for that was any of the miniboard 386 or 486s but one time I had a 386sx/16 brick and used it with good results (it was a slow printer to start with). The boards with 86sx were best cooling was never an issue so the fans could fail and CPU coolers were not needed. Allison >Josh > >Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used >>>> >> >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> Not only that, it worked properly with a CGA. >>> >> >> 3.10 would also work with CGA, but like all video modes, it was somewhat >> glitchy. It appears to me that 3.10 was written by people using >> 800 x 600. With a little playing around, it's probably not too hard to >> determine which video board they used. >> >> >> >> From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 09:07:38 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:07:38 -0800 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711220859.24554.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200711220859.24554.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: > From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net > > > Another that leaps to mind is the Canon Cat with its "Use Front" key. I wish that on the Cat, the "Use Front" could be switched to enter control characters, while in the Forth mode. When writing my HP printer driver, putting control characters into print strings was a pain. The key board had no ESC key and most printer strings started with that control character. One could modify it but then one would lose the original functions. I use the "Use Front" key for help and normal functions such as saving to disk. I guess one could add a special key sequence to enter control characters. I know it sees things like "Use Front" "Shift" "Space" as something special when in the editor. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 10:48:25 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:48:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emulex QD33 and Seagate Sabre drive... Message-ID: <855904.64571.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've been attempting to get a MicroVax II set up with a working, large hard drive. I have an Emulex QD33 Qbus SMD controller, and I'm trying to get it to work with a Seagate Sabre 9720-1230 hard drive. It's listed as being compatible with this controller in the manual. So far, I've gotten everything hooked up, and I can get into the controller's firmware by depositing various values at the >>> prompt. After entering the relevant settings (from the manual) for the hard drive, the controller will sort-of talk to the drive. It shows it as being available, but when I try to format it, the drive makes a buzzing noise for about 30 seconds, then I get the message that "This operation timed out". When I answer the error message with the enter key, the buzzing from the drive stops. This buzzing sounds like fast seeking, but it's not what I would expect a format to do, I am expecting more of a slow clunk... clunk... clunk... tapping noise as it seeks, and formats the drive. The CYL: display on the LCD of the drive never increments. I've tried various dip switch settings on the drive itself. The drives I have were originally used with a Wang computer system, but other than the faceplates being painted "Wang light brown" I don't know what other differences there might be. Their sector switches are set for 22 sector, so I entered that into the firmware. My next attempt, I'm going to try and change it to the default listed in the Emulex manual - but as long as the firmware and the drive agree, I don't think it much matters. I've tried different cylinder addressing modes, and both SMD modes (dip switches on the back of the drive) and no change. I've tried two identical hard drives, and get the same result, so I don't think I've just got a bad HDA. Both drives spin up and don't fault. Any ideas? -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 10:48:25 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:48:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emulex QD33 and Seagate Sabre drive... Message-ID: <855904.64571.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've been attempting to get a MicroVax II set up with a working, large hard drive. I have an Emulex QD33 Qbus SMD controller, and I'm trying to get it to work with a Seagate Sabre 9720-1230 hard drive. It's listed as being compatible with this controller in the manual. So far, I've gotten everything hooked up, and I can get into the controller's firmware by depositing various values at the >>> prompt. After entering the relevant settings (from the manual) for the hard drive, the controller will sort-of talk to the drive. It shows it as being available, but when I try to format it, the drive makes a buzzing noise for about 30 seconds, then I get the message that "This operation timed out". When I answer the error message with the enter key, the buzzing from the drive stops. This buzzing sounds like fast seeking, but it's not what I would expect a format to do, I am expecting more of a slow clunk... clunk... clunk... tapping noise as it seeks, and formats the drive. The CYL: display on the LCD of the drive never increments. I've tried various dip switch settings on the drive itself. The drives I have were originally used with a Wang computer system, but other than the faceplates being painted "Wang light brown" I don't know what other differences there might be. Their sector switches are set for 22 sector, so I entered that into the firmware. My next attempt, I'm going to try and change it to the default listed in the Emulex manual - but as long as the firmware and the drive agree, I don't think it much matters. I've tried different cylinder addressing modes, and both SMD modes (dip switches on the back of the drive) and no change. I've tried two identical hard drives, and get the same result, so I don't think I've just got a bad HDA. Both drives spin up and don't fault. Any ideas? -Ian From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Nov 22 11:10:45 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:10:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <1195670224.10153.47.camel@hq-tutus> References: <200711211800.lALI07ZV065142@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1195670224.10153.47.camel@hq-tutus> Message-ID: <52138.75.24.245.255.1195751445.squirrel@webmail-beta.caltech.edu> > ons 2007-11-21 klockan 12:00 -0600 skrev "John A. Dundas III" > : > >> Jerome, >> >> I can speak for RSTS with some authority, RSX with somewhat less >> authority. >> >> At 9:17 PM -0500 11/20/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >I doubt that RSX-11 or RSTS/E allow a user access to the IOPAGE >> >even via PREVIOUS DATA space. Can anyone confirm this assumption? >> >> Address space in the I/O page for RSTS jobs (processes) was not >> directly available. The APRs are always controlled by the OS. It >> MIGHT be possible for a privileged job to use PEEK/POKE SYS calls to >> access the I/O page in the way you suggest but it would be >> particularly difficult. > > I thought RSTS/E had some way of remapping the address space as well. > Can't you remap parts of your memory to some shared region, for example? Yes, shared regions (libraries and others) are supported. However as a general purpose timesharing system, RSTS insisted on direct access of the I/O page only by the kernel. So while it _might_ be possible to peek/poke a device CSR from user space (I never had occasion to try but could imagine a few possible approaches), it would not be possible to set up, e.g., an interrupt vector in user space. John From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 22 11:13:15 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:13:15 +0000 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711221713.15250.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 12:58:17 Richard A. Cini wrote: > That's interesting -- who? > > The way that the service manual tells you to check the speed is the pulse > width on a specific test point on the PCB. I was just going to use a laser > tach on the spindle...but I have to get a tach first :-) High-brightness LED and a precise signal generator (or possibly an IO pin on some sort of microcontroller). Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 22 11:38:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:38:54 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711221101.39286.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net>, <4744562D.14396.39F877D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711221101.39286.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <47454E2E.21914.3DC136D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2007 at 11:01, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Meh. Get a big tube of the bigger ones. For what you pay in onesy-twosey > quantities in Maplin etc, you can get a big bag of them from eBay. I suggested the 8-pin model as a starting place. Fewer I/Os and features to confuse. Blink some LEDs, spin a motor. Add more pins as the complexity increases. > I'm actually planning on moving my own projects from PIC to Atmel AVR, because > the Linux toolchain is better (and programmers are made of four resistors...) Shrug--it's a wash. The JDM programmers running off of a serial port are scarcely more than that. And the evaluation kits for both AVR and PIC are cheap enough and include their own USB programmers. > Is it just me, or are things getting silly when it's cheaper and easier to > program a microcontroller to just be a bunch of decoder logic than getting > random logic to do it? Nope. I was looking at a "drive ready" circuit for floppy using some one-shots and a couple of gates when I came to the conclusion that a PIC was cheaper, smaller, required less adjustment and could even keep a history of drive performance in EEPROM if I so desired. It's a strange new world where code is more important than solder, it seems. But then, anyone who's programmed an FPGA already knew that... Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Nov 22 11:38:01 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:38:01 -0800 Subject: Sun 3/4 updates Message-ID: <95ca66d512e20ace08637ee73bea611a@valleyimplants.com> Al was right about the Sun 3/200 - it was the PROM - more specifically the complete absence of the PROM - that left the diag lights on all the time. That board's been shelved for a while. The 4300 is up though - it was the NVRAM (someone had put it in backwards at some point during the board's lifetime). Fortunately I had another 4300 board (suffering from the "all lights on" plague) that I grabbed the NVRAM from and it now works fine (but 200+MB of memory makes the diag boot excruciatingly slow). From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Nov 22 12:01:02 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:01:02 -0500 Subject: Emulex QD33 and Seagate Sabre drive... In-Reply-To: <855904.64571.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <855904.64571.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4745C3DE.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Ian, Keep me posted on how things work for you, I have several other QBUS SMD controllers, so if I can help you out, let me know. Curt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I've been attempting to get a MicroVax II set up with > a working, large hard drive. I have an Emulex QD33 > Qbus SMD controller, and I'm trying to get it to work > with a Seagate Sabre 9720-1230 hard drive. It's listed > as being compatible with this controller in the > manual. > > So far, I've gotten everything hooked up, and I can > get into the controller's firmware by depositing > various values at the >>> prompt. After entering the > relevant settings (from the manual) for the hard > drive, the controller will sort-of talk to the drive. > It shows it as being available, but when I try to > format it, the drive makes a buzzing noise for about > 30 seconds, then I get the message that "This > operation timed out". When I answer the error message > with the enter key, the buzzing from the drive stops. > > This buzzing sounds like fast seeking, but it's not > what I would expect a format to do, I am expecting > more of a slow clunk... clunk... clunk... tapping > noise as it seeks, and formats the drive. The CYL: > display on the LCD of the drive never increments. I've > tried various dip switch settings on the drive itself. > The drives I have were originally used with a Wang > computer system, but other than the faceplates being > painted "Wang light brown" I don't know what other > differences there might be. Their sector switches are > set for 22 sector, so I entered that into the > firmware. My next attempt, I'm going to try and change > it to the default listed in the Emulex manual - but as > long as the firmware and the drive agree, I don't > think it much matters. > > I've tried different cylinder addressing modes, and > both SMD modes (dip switches on the back of the drive) > and no change. I've tried two identical hard drives, > and get the same result, so I don't think I've just > got a bad HDA. Both drives spin up and don't fault. > > Any ideas? > > -Ian > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 22 12:12:57 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:12:57 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711220933.52357.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> References: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> <4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200711220933.52357.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <4745C6A9.5000801@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > So, uhm, am I the only person here that actually quite *liked* the ZX81 > keyboard? The 64 thousand dollar question? Can you type? > Gordon > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 12:30:56 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:30:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <489939.40257.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Cantrell wrote: > > That's why you should start at a suitable level > of > > *abstraction* if you will. Learn about the innards > > from *a distance*. > > Learn about them *when you need to* and not before. It's not always a function of "need", sometimes just "want". Some people have more of a desire to peer under the hood (hardware orientation). Not to the exclusion of *simple* programming (BASIC, Assembly, C..). It's where you're interests take you. When you some kind of idea what's going on in a uP system, you're often inclined to dig deeper (gates on up). If that's your inclination. That's why I recommended Norton's book, as a very suitable possibility. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 13:28:30 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:28:30 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRU00G78VXK17X9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRU00G78VXK17X9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4745D85E.3050403@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >> Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's >> From: "Chuck Guzis" >> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:01 -0800 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> On 20 Nov 2007 at 16:27, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) >> Initially. A later version used the 286. The model 25 was, as far >> as I'm aware, always an 8086. > > The model25 was 8088 powered and I think a few others of that series. Definitely not. 8086 or better. None ran an 8088. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 13:31:44 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:31:44 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711220933.52357.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> References: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> <4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200711220933.52357.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <4745D920.1060801@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wednesday 21 November 2007 19:03:54 woodelf wrote: > >> And coming in 3rd place for un-liked keyboards after chicklet ones >> is the membrane ones found on $99 or less computers. Not saying any >> names but they orginaly came from the UK. > > So, uhm, am I the only person here that actually quite *liked* the ZX81 > keyboard? *raises hand* Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 22 13:42:07 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:42:07 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <01C82D15.FC75C980@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:58:17 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting >The way that the service manual tells you to check the speed is the pulse >width on a specific test point on the PCB. I was just going to use a laser >tach on the spindle...but I have to get a tach first :-) ----- Strobe disk? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 22 13:50:59 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:50:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: pt210 printing terminal manuals Message-ID: I've scanned and OCRed the Radio Shack pt210 printing terminal users manual and service manual. If someone wants them right now, please email me. I'm waiting for Howard Harte to grab them from my super-secret website to put it in his archive of manuals. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From rickb at bensene.com Thu Nov 22 13:56:01 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:56:01 -0800 Subject: Emulex QD33 and Seagate Sabre drive... In-Reply-To: <855904.64571.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <855904.64571.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Ian Primus wrote: >I've been attempting to get a MicroVax II set up with >a working, large hard drive. I have an Emulex QD33 >Qbus SMD controller, and I'm trying to get it to work >with a Seagate Sabre 9720-1230 hard drive. It's listed >as being compatible with this controller in the >manual. >After entering the >relevant settings (from the manual) for the hard >drive, the controller will sort-of talk to the drive. >It shows it as being available, but when I try to >format it, the drive makes a buzzing noise for about >30 seconds, then I get the message that "This >operation timed out". When I answer the error message >with the enter key, the buzzing from the drive stops. Is it possible that the drive's head restraint is still activated/in-place? That'd certainly cause the buzzing, with the voicecoil positioner attempting to move the head when it's locked in place. These big old drives with rather massive head carriage assemblies always had some means by which the head could be locked into a home position for transportation purposes. Sometimes it was an actual screw that was put in place to hold the head in place, or some kind of cam-activated mechanism that would lock the head. Just a thought... Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 14:02:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:02:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning house (actually shed) Message-ID: <352105.56309.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> I have a few AT & T monitors (mono) I'm either giving away or throwing out. These were used w/the 6300 (640 x 400). One I found in someone's trash, the other in someone's yard (it was sitting out there for quite some time) in the snow. I turned both on 6 months to a year ago, and both worked, exhibited no noticeable screen burn, but one rolls, the other jitters. Free for shipping. If you think I'm nuts for even bothering to offer them, you're likely correct, but I hate throwing (most) anything away w/o seeing if someone can make use of them. Also 2 Atari (520ST etc) monitors, one mono, one color. Condition unknown. Found them in the trash too. Cables were snipped. There's a growing contingent of yuck-yucks 'round these parts who must think copper=gold. These were also exposed to some moisture, but not submerged. Both sets operate at about the same frequencies as a Tandy 2000, NEC APC III, and other TTL 400 line units. I also have ~2 dozen NOS SASI boards by Adaptec. I can e-mail a jpeg to any interested parties. About 1/3 are in anti-static bags, the rest wrapped in some other kind of clear plastic. 2$/plus shipping. They're driven by an 8085. I may have 2 or 3 Tandy 1000's for phree or close. Eventually I'll be unloading a few 2000's also, but those might have an issue (changing the video mode in BASIC cause the screen to lock up - ???). They belonged to a developer dude, so I'm wondering if he tinkered with them. Or maybe, just maybe the trace wasn't cut as required to upgrade the mono graphics cards to color, along with the addition of necessary ic's. Will have to check... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 22 14:17:31 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:17:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200711221713.15250.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200711221713.15250.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20071122121347.H50905@shell.lmi.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 12:58:17 Richard A. Cini wrote: > That's interesting -- who? > The way that the service manual tells you to check the speed is the pulse > width on a specific test point on the PCB. I was just going to use a laser > tach on the spindle...but I have to get a tach first :-) I'm coming in late on this - sorry if it's been discussed Is there some reason to not check the spindle speed in software (watch for index pulses)? Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a flickering fluorescent light. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 22 14:41:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:41:07 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRU00HYBW488803@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRU00HYBW488803@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <474578E3.4382.3E680787@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2007 at 7:32, Allison wrote: > >> Anyone remember the name of the program which facilitated this? > > > >Nope. Haven't a clue. > > 22nice and there were a few others. That was intended as a bit of mock humility... :) Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 14:51:49 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:51:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Emulex QD33 and Seagate Sabre drive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <766576.71844.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Rick Bensene wrote: > >After entering the > >relevant settings (from the manual) for the hard > >drive, the controller will sort-of talk to the > drive. > >It shows it as being available, but when I try to > >format it, the drive makes a buzzing noise for > about > >30 seconds, then I get the message that "This > >operation timed out". When I answer the error > message > >with the enter key, the buzzing from the drive > stops. > > Is it possible that the drive's head restraint is > still > activated/in-place? > That'd certainly cause the buzzing, with the > voicecoil positioner > attempting to move the head when it's locked in > place. These big old > drives with rather massive head carriage assemblies > always had some > means by which the head could be locked into a home > position for > transportation purposes. Sometimes it was an actual > screw that was put > in place to hold the head in place, or some kind of > cam-activated > mechanism that would lock the head. > > Just a thought... Yeah, I had thought about that too, but this drive doesn't have a physical head lock - and the drive seeks fine during it's power up self-test. Also, the front panel diagnostics run fine - i.e. the random seek test. Something's getting screwed up in the command translation from the computer to the drive. I've tried setting the drive to 86 sectors that's listed in the Emulex manual as the default for this drive. Same results. It actually tries/buzzes for a good minute or so, not the 30 seconds I originally thought. I've tried every combination of settings on the drive I could think of. I am obviously missing something... The drive is properly terminated, and I double checked all the cables. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 22 15:12:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:12:57 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20071122121347.H50905@shell.lmi.net> References: , <200711221713.15250.gordonjcp@gjcp.net>, <20071122121347.H50905@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47458059.6415.3E852C23@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2007 at 12:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > Is there some reason to not check the spindle speed in software (watch for > index pulses)? I gather that the system that these are hooked to is an S100 box that may not have any sort of timer facility in it. To be sure, it would be possible to hook at least the index link to a PC parallel port for checking--but that would require writing code for the wretched thing. > Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a > flickering fluorescent light. Indeed--and for 360 RPM, one can use a 45 RPM phono strobe disc just fine (360/45 = 8.00). A 33 1/3 phono strobe disc works for 300 RPM drives (300/33.333... = 9.00..). Strobe discs are available free for the download at sites such as http://www.extremephono.com/free_turntable_strobe_disk.htm I prefer a neon bulb or LED for strobe checks--the strobe bars stand out more clearly. Just be sure to find a disc that matches your mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz). Cheers, Chuck > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Nov 22 15:49:48 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:49:48 +0000 Subject: VAXmate for Windows In-Reply-To: <0JRW0047OV0U6EQ6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 22/11/07 14:03, "Allison" wrote: >> This is why I've kept some ST225s behind. I'm pretty sure both VAXmates are >> hard driveless, though I can't really speak for the boxed one as I've never >> really delved in further than below the top foam :) > > Generally thy are. Theres a seperate underbox that adds the hard drive > and controller. Ah yes! I remember those now from somewhere like the DECdirect catalogues, though I never saw them in the field....must've been too expensive for our customers. >> Yep, the one I remember using was a PCSA terminal. This was shortly before >> we went through the sheer pain of a PCSA to LANMAN migration with Pathworks >> V5, that's a few weekends of my life I'm not going to get back, heh. > > It was during my time at DEC and they wer like flies there. I still > have kits for PCSAV4 and V5. Mostly the same here, I'm a CDDS hoarder, but lost the PCSA floppies I had many moons ago. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 22 16:37:03 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:37:03 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <4745C6A9.5000801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> <4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200711220933.52357.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> <4745C6A9.5000801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1195771023.6834.0.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-22 at 11:12 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > So, uhm, am I the only person here that actually quite *liked* the ZX81 > > keyboard? > The 64 thousand dollar question? Can you type? Yes, I can. But even so, I found the ZX81's keyboard pretty quick and very quiet. It's maybe a bit tiring to use for very long periods of time, but it doesn't take long to fill 16k... Gordon From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 22 16:47:56 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:47:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <171452.91774.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <64609.10439.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Who?! Are you getting confused with (Sir?) Clive Sinclair (Spectrum's, C5 etc.) and Sir Alan (Michael) Sugar (founder of Amstrad)? They are not the same person! Yeah, I still have a whole bunch of cassette tapes, but I don't know whether I still have my (rubbish) Spectrum games I made. The title of the others escape me, but the last one I worked on (in 1992/3) was UNTTR (United Nations To The Rescue). It was supposed to be a combination space invaders and Star Raiders 2 (classic Spectrum game that gave me and my family hours of play, despite being very small - 5 mins to load), but turned out rubbish. When the in-built tape recorder chewed the tape it was on (which we recovered) I decided to ditch programming and concentrate on playing games. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: Frankly though, I don't see how an English home could be called one w/o Clive Sugar's 628?. And Yo, cassette tapes are still easier to find then floppy disks! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 16:49:44 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:49:44 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <01C82D15.FC75C980@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C82D15.FC75C980@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net> > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:58:17 -0500> From: "Richard A. Cini" > Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting> > >The way that the service manual tells you to check the speed is the pulse> >width on a specific test point on the PCB. I was just going to use a laser> >tach on the spindle...but I have to get a tach first :-)> -----> Strobe disk? I've used excel to make a strobe disk on a laser printer. It was just a pie chart. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu Nov 22 16:59:54 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:59:54 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711221239.29273.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200711221239.29273.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1195772394.32401.15.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Thu, 2007-11-22 at 12:39 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thursday 22 November 2007 00:28:24 Tony Duell wrote: > > > The problem is that there are few good books on computer operation (and > > plenty of very bbad ones). I learnt a lot from the Philips P850 CPU > > techncial manual, and more from the PDP8/e and PDP11/45 manuals and > > printsets. But trying to understand those is really starting at the deep > > end. > > I think my "lightbulb moment" was with the SC/MP processor, really. Among a > pile of junk that my Dad had salvaged from stuff getting binned at work was a > manual for a Sinclair MK14. I never saw the board, but I still have the > manual. I remember when I realised that an AND gate with both inputs having negation bubbles was the same as a NOR gate. That was looking at circuits for the EDUC-8, so that would be '75 or so and I was 11. Studying that design basically taught me about logic, and I had such a soft spot for it that I eventually wrote an emulator for it (I never actually made my own EDUC-8, I couldn't have afforded to at that age!) I do think a logic trainer would be a good start for anyone wanting to know how things work, this type of thing: http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ModuleNo=220990&doy=22m11 In fact looking at that makes me want to go out and buy one for myself for Christmas. Banbury Maplins, here I come... -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 22 17:15:27 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:15:27 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <64609.10439.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <64609.10439.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1195773327.6834.6.camel@elric.inet> On Thu, 2007-11-22 at 22:47 +0000, Andrew Burton wrote: > ... I decided to ditch programming and concentrate on playing games. A chap I know who made his money from programming computer games once said that he reckoned that the reason Dundee was the games programming capital of Europe was that's where the ZX Spectrums were built. Everyone in Dundee during the 1980s had a Spectrum - someone always "knew a guy in the pub" who sold them very cheaply. The practical upshot of this was that anyone who had any programming talent had a computer to develop on, with good documentation and a massive userbase. Incidentally, the first computer game I ever played was the lemonade stand game, on Chris van der Kuyl's Dad's Apple II. I remember thinking how cool it looked, great bit of design. My eight-year-old self was particularly impressed with the coloured ribbon cables ;-) Gordon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 16:55:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:55:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711220229.VAA18963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 21, 7 09:22:21 pm Message-ID: > > > But having a shift key doesn't mean the keyboard will send lower-case > > letters. The shift key might be used only to get things like the > > symbols over the digit keys, and letter keys may be sent in upper > > case whether the shift key is pressed or not. > > Mmm, true. But then, many - probably most - keyboards don't send > letters at all; they send scancodes of some sort. As far back as early I would dispote the 'most' The keyboards I have here fall into 3 main cetegories 1) A simple matrix of switches to be scanned by the main processor (common on home micros). This matrix _may_ be laid out so that the row/column number ofa key is related in some simple way to the character code, BTW. 2) Keyboards that are hardware encoded to output the final character codes (normally ASCII). 3) KEyboards that are hardware encoded to send a keycode that has little relationship to the character code. In general, if you have versions of (3) fro different (human) languages, a given key postion will send the same keycode, no matter what appears on the keycap.. > Suns, at least, and probably farther, keyboards were sending small > integer keycodes bearing no particular relationship to the values of > the key-top characters in any character set, even if you consider just > the character-generating keys. > > And of course there are things like electromech teletypes where the > boundaries between the keyboard and the rest of the device are not > nearly as well-defined as they are with a peecee - or a Sun-3 or a > VT-100, which for these (very restricted) purposes are the same as a No wait a second. Does it actually matter for the purposes of this discussion what the actual communcation is between a VT100 and its keyboard? Assuming you're not going to modify the VT100's firmware (if you're allowing modificatations then _anything_ is possible ;-)), a VT100 sends a particular code out of its serial port when you press a key (subject othe modifier keys, SHIFT, etc). The fact that (IIRC) the keyboard sends a keycode over the seiral interface to the VT100 mainboard, and it's turned into ASCII by the firmware doesn't make any diffference IMHO as to whether, for example, this keyboard can be considered to be an upper-case only one or an upper/lower case one. > modern peecee. (Does a purely mechanical typewriter - remember them? - Rememebr them? I use one... > have a keyboard that sends letters? Or does it "send" an index value > into the (mechanically stored) array of glyphs in the printing part of Well, for the typewriter I have, each key/type hammer is an independant mechanism. Pressing a key activates the type hammer it's linked to. No encoding/decoding at all. > the mechanism? Is it fair to consider that index an encoded letter? > Some interesting philosophical questions lurking.) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 17:09:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:09:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> from "David Cantrell" at Nov 22, 7 11:29:47 am Message-ID: > > That's why you should start at a suitable level of > > *abstraction* if you will. Learn about the innards > > from *a distance*. > > Learn about them *when you need to* and not before. This depends _a lot_ on the person learning the stuff. I find such abstractions to be a major hinderance to learning, it comes under the 'oversimiplifcaiton' I mentioned last night. There are too many books at the 'this processr, this memory, this smack on head' level, and I have never been able to learn anything useful from a book that seems to suggest these various units operate on some kind of deep magic that I'll never understand. Worse still, IMHO, are those books that explain the basic logic gates and the Eccles-Jordan circuit (SR flip-flop) and then jump to the 'processor + memory + I/O' level with no explanation of how you might wire up gates to make a processor. ARCH! There was one reasonable book put out by Radio Shack many years ago. I forget the title, but IIRC it had a geeen cover and sprial binding along the top edge. What made it intereting was that it contained a scehanmtic for a very simple processor (I think it could address 16 4-bit memory locations, nothing more), and gave simple programs to run on it. Totally useless for any real work, it was certainly simple enough that you could analyse the operation of said programs by hand. Of course the fact that I grew up fiddling with transistors (and vlaves for that matter) probably has something to do with the way I regard computers... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 17:14:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:14:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini" at Nov 22, 7 07:58:17 am Message-ID: > > That's interesting -- who? > > The way that the service manual tells you to check the speed is the pulse > width on a specific test point on the PCB. I was just going to use a laser > tach on the spindle...but I have to get a tach first :-) You can of course determine the spindle speed by looking at the timing of the index pulses (one per revolution on a soft-sectored disk, so 5Hz for a 300 rpm disk, etc). But there is one ;gotcha' in doing this. Don't simply hook up a frequency counter and measure the freqwency. If you have a 1-second gate time, you'll get 5 pulses through for quite a wide range of speeds. It's just not accurate enough. It's better to use the period maode of your counter and see how many (say) 1MHz clock pulses you can count between index pulses from the drive. Alternatively make a stroboscope disk (either copy the one off a TM100 pulley, or work out howm many segments you need and write a trivial bit of postscript to draw it), stick that on the spindle pulley or direct-drive motor rotor and view it under amins-powered lamp. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 17:42:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:42:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <64609.10439.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <299247.25911.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> whoever made it I want it I do imagine there was a floppy disk option (?) --- Andrew Burton wrote: > > Who?! > > Are you getting confused with (Sir?) Clive Sinclair > (Spectrum's, C5 etc.) and Sir Alan (Michael) Sugar > (founder of Amstrad)? They are not the same person! > > Yeah, I still have a whole bunch of cassette tapes, > but I don't know whether I still have my (rubbish) > Spectrum games I made. The title of the others > escape me, but the last one I worked on (in 1992/3) > was UNTTR (United Nations To The Rescue). It was > supposed to be a combination space invaders and Star > Raiders 2 (classic Spectrum game that gave me and my > family hours of play, despite being very small - 5 > mins to load), but turned out rubbish. When the > in-built tape recorder chewed the tape it was on > (which we recovered) I decided to ditch programming > and concentrate on playing games. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > Chris M wrote: Frankly > though, I don't see how an English home could > be called one w/o Clive Sugar's 628?. And Yo, > cassette > tapes are still easier to find then floppy disks! > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 22 17:48:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:48:18 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> from "David Cantrell" at Nov 22, 7 11:29:47 am, Message-ID: <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2007 at 23:09, Tony Duell wrote: > I find such abstractions to be a major hinderance to learning, it comes > under the 'oversimiplifcaiton' I mentioned last night. There are too many > books at the 'this processr, this memory, this smack on head' level, and > I have never been able to learn anything useful from a book that seems to > suggest these various units operate on some kind of deep magic that I'll > never understand. Good point. There is the concept of "depth" of understanding. Many people who regard themselves as programming professionals would be lost without an operating system. Some would be lost without an assembler. And, sad to say, some would be lost without some sort of Java facility. For some, that's not sufficient. Understanding how a disk drive works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is essential to them. Beginning with a battery and a lamp, then moving to experimenting with semiconductors, then developing logic elements and finally, understanding the "guts" of a computer creates a depth of understanding upon which to build. So my vote is for starting simple and building. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Nov 22 17:51:26 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:51:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711230010.TAA08275@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Mmm, true. But then, many - probably most - keyboards don't send >> letters at all; they send scancodes of some sort. > I would dispote the 'most' Most keyboards, not most types of keyboards. I suspect relatively-modern peecee keyboards probably outnumber all other keyboards in existence.... > Does it actually matter for the purposes of this discussion what the > actual communcation is between a VT100 and its keyboard? Depends on exactly what you mean when you talk about a keyboard sending something. A VT100 has a relatively well-defined and narrow channel between the keybaord and the rest of the terminal; it also has a well-defined physical boundary between the keyboard and the rest of it - unlike, say, a mechanical typewriter. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 22 18:46:33 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:46:33 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [alt.sys.pdp11] further collection reduction - TU80 availabl Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:16:11 -0600 Groups: alt.sys.pdp11,comp.sys.dec,comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec.micro From: "Lee K. Gleason" Subject: further collection reduction - TU80 available for free Id: ======== Free for pickup in Houston, Texas, near TC Jester and the North loop. This is a 9 track, reel to reel tape drive, it comes in a half height rack. It accepts tapes up to full size 2400 foot. Speed 25 IPS start/stop mode, 100 IPS streaming mode. Density is 1600 BPI. This TU80 was lightly used, and then stored in the back bedroom for the last 12 years or so. It was working when I stored it, don't have anything to test it with now. Here's your chance to own a piece of computing history! -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consutlants lee.gleason at comcast.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 19:07:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:07:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <458328.86098.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > For some, that's not sufficient. Understanding how > a disk drive > works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is > essential to them. TCP/IP is one thing. But knowing how a dd works today?? If you're writing i/o it's one thing. Otherwise phew. > Beginning with a battery and a lamp, then moving to > experimenting > with semiconductors, then developing logic elements > and finally, > understanding the "guts" of a computer creates a > depth of > understanding upon which to build. > > So my vote is for starting simple and building. If my opinion matters, it's a little too intense from the get-go. I'd concentrate on the *vagueries* of ic's and work down as necessary. Even w/assembly language, just how much of what goes on at the gate level is useful? Few, make that precious few have any clue what goes on in a uP at the level you're talking about. Sure it would be great for a kid/? to learn how to build a discrete logic cpu. But that's an awfully specialized area of computing for most of us. Amidst the ensuing cries of treason or the like, a lot of people feel that entering opcodes in hex on a keypad is a tad *tedious* (polite version). Different strokes for different folks I guess though. How many people actually need to program in assembly language these days?? As time progresses, a lot of the knowledge that was essential in earlier times will cease to be a necessity. I know the original question was posed on a vintage list, but is it necessary to learn on an 8-bit unit? There may be some good reasons to, but if at all possible learn on something that's going to be more relevant to today's environment (and even that's a stretch in the case of an early pc). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 22 20:06:19 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:06:19 -0500 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <1195670224.10153.47.camel@hq-tutus> References: <200711211800.lALI07ZV065142@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1195670224.10153.47.camel@hq-tutus> Message-ID: <4746359B.3030502@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >>ons 2007-11-21 klockan 12:00 -0600 skrev "John A. Dundas III" >dundas at caltech.edu>: > >>Jerome, >> >>I can speak for RSTS with some authority, RSX with somewhat less authority. >> >>At 9:17 PM -0500 11/20/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> >>>I doubt that RSX-11 or RSTS/E allow a user access to the IOPAGE >>>even via PREVIOUS DATA space. Can anyone confirm this assumption? >>> >>> >>Address space in the I/O page for RSTS jobs (processes) was not >>directly available. The APRs are always controlled by the OS. It >>MIGHT be possible for a privileged job to use PEEK/POKE SYS calls to >>access the I/O page in the way you suggest but it would be >>particularly difficult. >> >> > >I thought RSTS/E had some way of remapping the address space as well. >Can't you remap parts of your memory to some shared region, for example? > > Jerome Fine replies: I am replying to Johnny's response, but I had also read the other replies as well. Thank you all for your help. The first point is that using a PEEK/POKE SYSTEM (EMT? - RT-11 has such a call) is so high in overhead that it becomes almost useless. In fact, the key point about the use of the EMEM.DLL under RT-11 is the efficiency. While it is possible to access normal "emulated PDP-11" memory (using E11 on a 750 MHz Pentium III) in about 0.3 micro-seconds, it takes about 1.2 micro-seconds to reference an IOPAGE address in some sort of way - including the PSW or the EMEM.DLL values or about 4 times as long. Since this is a huge improvement over using a PEEK/POKE, it is even worth giving up 8192 bytes of address space to a dedicated APR (of the IOPAGE) for that purpose. On the other hand, with RT-11, it is possible and easy to set the PREVIOUS DATA space in the PSW to KERNEL even when VBGEXE is used - more to the point, it is actually unnecessary since that is the default for a so-called privileged job (which all programs are by default). This allows the instruction: Mov @#BaseReg,R0 ;Get the current value from PC memory to be replaced by: MTPD @#BaseReg ;Get the current value Mov (SP)+,R0 ; from PC memory with almost the same time for execution. It also avoids losing that 8192 bytes for APR7 being available just for the IOPAGE registers. Obviously, a SYSTEM request avoids all of the problems at a heavy cost in overhead estimated at between 50 and 500 times the above two examples. That was sort of what I was thinking about when I asked if there was an "fast method (only a few instructions)" to access an IOPAGE register. By the way, a first version of a set of FORTRAN IV/77 interface subroutines are available for use under RT-11 and any other program that has access to IOPAGE registers either in CURRENT DATA space or PREVIOUS DATA space. >>RSX had a bit more flexibility (opportunity) in this regard. I >>believe you can set up a CRAW$ (create address window) directive in >>either Macro or Fortran to achieve the desired result. >> >Yes with reservation. CRAW$ (create address window) is as a part of >doing dynamic remapping of your address space. >However, CRAW$ always required a named memory partition. You cannot >create an address window to an arbitrary memory address. >Also, the memory partitions have protections and ownership associated >with them. > >On most systems, CRAW$ cannot get you access to the I/O page, simply >because normally you don't have an address space and a partition >associated with the I/O page. > >But if such a partition is created, then CRAW$, in combination with MAP$ >would allow you to access the I/O page. > >The same thing can also be achieved even without CRAW$/MAP$, since you >can specify mapping that your task should have already at task build >time, with the COMMON and RESCOM options to TKB. > > This seems to be the answer if it is allowed. Obviously it does require giving up that 8192 bytes the have APR7 mapped to user space. There is also another option with E11 that I will make use of when I have finished with the HD(X).SYS device driver for RT-11. It turns out that if the memory is being accessed sequentially, the average time to reference a single 16 bit value in the file under: MOUNT HD: FOOBAR.DSK is actually less than the time to get/store a single value under EMEM.DLL when as few as 8 blocks (2048 words at a time) are being referenced. Consequently, setting up a small 4096 byte buffer and the associated code to handle to calls to the HD: device driver (all standard calls to .ReadF and .WritF in RT-11) is actually more efficient since after the values are in the buffer inside the program, the values can be referenced and modified at "emulated PDP-11" memory speeds. Of course, the above solution for sequential references does not work when the references are random or when references are at regular but very large intervals (thousands and even millions of successive values). For this latter situation, it may be possible to modify EMEM.DLL so that a single reference to the IOPAGE register modifies all of the specified values (over a range of up to many billions of values). Of course, the result would no longer really be a PDP-11 except for the controlling code which would still be 99% of the required code since the EMEM.DLL changes are really quite trivial, yet consume 99% of the time to execute. In case anyone does not appreciate what I refer to, it is back to my other addiction - sieving for prime numbers. I realize that I should probably switch to native Pentium code, but is seems more of a challenge and much more fun to run as if a PDP-11 is being used with a few GB of memory somewhere out there that can be easily fiddled with as if there is a very fast additional CPU similar to those that used to be available for special math applications - anyone remember SKYMNK for FFTs? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Nov 22 20:16:52 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:16:52 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474578E3.4382.3E680787@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRU00HYBW488803@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <474578E3.4382.3E680787@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47463814.5010507@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Nov 2007 at 7:32, Allison wrote: > >>>> Anyone remember the name of the program which facilitated this? >>> Nope. Haven't a clue. >> 22nice and there were a few others. > > That was intended as a bit of mock humility... :) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > and to make it really explicit --- Chuck wrote it! From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Nov 22 20:32:29 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 02:32:29 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: Message-ID: <006101c82d79$196d10d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Oh I don't know. If you hate PCs so much.... Quite honestly, the *ONLY* reason I use PC's is because of the availability of software (and the speed obviously). If it wasn't for that I'd probably still be running my old MegaST. >....you should have designed your own motherboard, so you >could haevve done things properly... ....but if I'd done that I'd have used a 68K instead of that Intel garbage IBM chose.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 20:42:38 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:42:38 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--->> > Alternatively make a stroboscope disk (either copy the one off a TM100 > pulley, or work out howm many segments you need and write a trivial bit > of postscript to draw it), stick that on the spindle pulley or > direct-drive motor rotor and view it under amins-powered lamp. > Hi For 60 Hz it is easy. If one uses a light like a neon, it will flash 120 times. An LED is just one direction unless one uses a full wave bridge to get a forward pulse on each cycle. As a single phase it is only 60 Hz. One thing to remember is that the LED can't take too high of a back voltage. Most red ones are rated for about 10V someplace. If feeding it with an AC source greater than the LEDs rate back voltage, one should do something to protect it. A series rectifier diode will work and reduce the power in the dropping resistor. A shunt diode will also work but the resistor will conduct on both half cycles. Lets assume we have 120 flashes per second as from a neon since the same disk would work with the 60 flash LED. A disk spinning at 300 RPM does 5 rotations per second. if we divide 120 by 5, we get 24 flashes per rotation. We just need to create a disk with 24 dark and 24 white segments. For a 360, we get 6 rotations a second. That works out to 20 flashes per rotation. That is 20 black and 20 white spaces. This could be printed with a spread sheet and a pie chart print, as I stated before. For 50 Hz, the 300 RPM is easy but the 360 doesn't work out. One gets 16.66 flashes per rotation. The only way I can think to make this work is to make a spiral that would have 50 dark and light strips over 3 revolutions. Ones eye would tend to follow the spiral. I'm not sure how to do this with a spread sheet. Maybe it could be done with some postscript code but I'm not sure how. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.? Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline From bob at jfcl.com Thu Nov 22 21:12:56 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:12:56 -0800 Subject: Booting XXDP+ from a secondary controller Message-ID: <00cd01c82d7e$bead0b40$3c0721c0$@com> Is there a way to boot XXDP+ from a secondary MSCP controller (e.g. CSR at 760334) ? This isn't a PDP-11 boot ROM issue - the -11 (a 11/53+ in this instance) ROM has no problem booting from a secondary controller. The issue is that, once started, XXDP doesn't know that it should talk to this alternate CSR address and promptly dies. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Nov 22 21:05:08 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:05:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711230322.WAA11212@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] a spiral that would have 50 dark and light strips over 3 > revolutions. [...] Maybe it could be done with some postscript code > but I'm not sure how. 306 396 translate 0 1 50 { gsave dup 21.6 mul rotate 300 -15 moveto 0 0 lineto 300 15 lineto closepath clip newpath dup 4 mul 50 add 0 0 2 index 350 45 arc 0 0 2 index 10 add 45 350 arcn closepath fill pop pop grestore } for newpath 0 0 2 0 360 arc closepath fill showpage If everything is right, you'll see the blobs sliding smoothly in or out, depending on which way it's turning. If the frequency is off, they'll drift one way or the other circumferentially as well. Add a line 0 0 moveto 275 0 lineto .05 setlinewidth stroke just before the "grestore" line and you'll get a starburst of lines for the blobs to slide along; this may help you detect slight frequency error - the starburst will drift. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Nov 22 21:26:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 03:26:34 -0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal References: Message-ID: <009601c82d80$a6e86110$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....remap "Caps Lock" to be "CTRL" on my Model M's (along >with swapping ~ and ESC). Those are two of the things I detest the most about "modern" AT-style keyboards. "ESC" should be top left and "Ctrl" should be immediately below the "TAB" key. Oh, and most importantly, "Return" *SHOULD* be "J" shaped (or at least horizontal) rather than these annoying vertical ones we're subjected to nowadays....I'm forever hitting "#" by mistake, even to this day. Other than that they're OK; though I'd rather have the function keys down the left hand side of the keyboard where they belong! :-) >....If you use a keyboard long enough, you'll actually get used to >its key placement just fine, no matter how annoying it is at first, >I guess. With the sole exception of the "Return" key, I agree with you 100%. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Nov 22 21:30:45 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 03:30:45 -0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal References: <01C82C3F.CFA1AC20@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca><4744811A.7020300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00a101c82d81$3bf740f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > So, uhm, am I the only person here that actually quite *liked* >the ZX81 keyboard? I never actually *liked* it, though I didn't especially dislike it either. And it was certainly streets ahead of the Spectrum's keyboard; *THAT* is one of my all time most hated keyboards....makes my flesh creep just thinking about it....uuuurghhh..... TTFN - Pete. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Nov 22 22:35:25 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 01:35:25 -0300 Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) References: <200711132330.lADNUE51017305@dewey.classiccmp.org> <473A9533.3090903@msu.edu> Message-ID: <029d01c82d8a$528cb8f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > The LAG is labeled "HAL16R8CN 8440 / 342-0251-A" so it does look like a > custom ("HAL") chip such as what Tony was mentioning. Guess that would be > tough to replace, unless someone out there has the means to make a > dupilicate. Bah. That'll teach me to think twice next time I think I > know what I'm doing :). I remember reading somewhere that a guy from an old repair shop reverse engineered these equations and put it online. Google is your friend :o) From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 22 21:37:32 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:37:32 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <01C82D58.97F5CEE0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Message: 10 Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:17:31 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting >Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a >flickering fluorescent light. Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. FWIW, m From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 22 21:50:21 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:50:21 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <0JRW006ZSVKLJ8M1@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Just a few quick answers: -- The FD400 is a DC direct drive spindle so no belt. Another list member gave me a scan of a tach disk to glue on the spindle motor. I will look at the bearings, etc. I also recall in the past swapping the drives and concluding it's the drive and not the electronics in the controller. -- The controller is a two-board totally TTL controller. I have the tech manual and a BIOS sample so I'm sure I could craft something; I was just trying to save some time. Rich On 11/22/07 9:24 AM, "Allison" wrote: >> >> Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting >> From: "Richard A. Cini" >> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:54:46 -0500 >> To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> All: >> >> As you all know from previous posts, I?m having trouble with the drive >> system on my IMSAI. While I wait to receive a memory board and some other >> stuff from a friend of mine, Herb Johnson gave me some new energy in looking >> at the existing iCOM Frugal Floppy system. >> >> This system uses Pertec FD400 drives. One works perfectly, the other one >> has consistent CRC errors as evidenced by the CRC light on the drive >> cabinet, and BDOS errors reported by CP/M. I ensured that the spindle is >> engaging the diskette hub, and I also cleaned the heads using a wet cleaning >> diskette. > > Get in there and scrub the head with a swab. I found the wet disks didn't > cut it long ago. > > Make sure the spindle speed is good and not irregular. > > Try swapping drives A and B and se if the problem moves with the drive > or not. Just to make sure you not having a issues with something else. > >> >> Is there any common failure mode on this model of drive that I should >> start tracking down? > > Everyone I'd seen either had fallen apart mechanically (broken hubs, > doors or other plastic) or the drive motor had gone noisy or mechanically > flakey. NOTE: those motors often had bronze (oilite) bearings that dried > out and then became oval or other wise out of useful shape. It was a side > effect of lot of hours and the belts side tension. Result is the motor > speed is uneven. I've seen bad boards too, usually tossed the board and > salvaged from another mechanical pig. > >> I looked over the maintenance procedures for the drive >> and many if the tests allude to a diagnostics program that can manually >> control the spindle and head stepping. None of the iCOM manuals I have >> provide diagnostics code for manually controlling the drives in this manner.. > > There maybe diags but your on you own to find them. > >> Before I start coding, does anyone have diagnostics code I can use? I >> found some code in the SIGM archive (for the iCOM 3712 controller) but it >> doesn?t seem to work properly with this controller. > > What controller (CHIP on the FDC board)? > > > Allison > >> Thanks. >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 22 21:58:48 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:58:48 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <47458059.6415.3E852C23@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck/Tony/Dwight/der Mouse: This is exactly why I love you guys... I forgot about the neon bulb and all of that. It's been years, but I had a linear tracking turntable as a teenager and it had a built-in neon-based strobe. The Postscript code is great. I also have a TM100 in the shop and I downloaded the turntable strobe disk. Something to do this weekend :-) Thanks again all, and Happy Thanksgiving. Rich On 11/22/07 4:12 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 22 Nov 2007 at 12:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Is there some reason to not check the spindle speed in software (watch for >> index pulses)? > > I gather that the system that these are hooked to is an S100 box that > may not have any sort of timer facility in it. To be sure, it would > be possible to hook at least the index link to a PC parallel port for > checking--but that would require writing code for the wretched thing. > >> Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a >> flickering fluorescent light. > > Indeed--and for 360 RPM, one can use a 45 RPM phono strobe disc just > fine (360/45 = 8.00). A 33 1/3 phono strobe disc works for 300 RPM > drives (300/33.333... = 9.00..). Strobe discs are available free for > the download at sites such as > > http://www.extremephono.com/free_turntable_strobe_disk.htm > > I prefer a neon bulb or LED for strobe checks--the strobe bars stand > out more clearly. Just be sure to find a disc that matches your > mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz). > > Cheers, > Chuck > >> >> >> > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Nov 22 22:26:43 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:26:43 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: <006101c82d79$196d10d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <014001c82d89$0d6a5120$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....you should have designed your own motherboard, so you >>could haevve done things properly... >.....but if I'd done that I'd have used a 68K instead.... Although I was being facetious....on reflection that's not actually such a bad idea. It struck me, that if you were to design a "generic enough" 68K based motherboard (pretty much just processor/RAM/expansion bus) then, by making up the appropriate expansion cards, you could quite easily turn it into an Atari ST, or an Amiga, or a Mac, or.... - and of course, these days, you could harvest the required custom parts from discarded/broken machines. Just an idle thought.... TTFN - Pete. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 08:16:30 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:16:30 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRW00FXIVM7PJZR@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:27:41 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 21 Nov 2007 at 18:11, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Could you quantify "lame"? I used a 386sx-16 for years and it was >> always faster (visibly, not just via benchmarks) than the 12MHz 286 I >> had access to. > >My own experience was the opposite. I had a 16 MHz 386sx that was >visibly *slower* than a 12MHz 286 that I also had. It was very >cheap and eventually just quit working reliably all on its own. >Perhaps that was an artifact of early SMT. OTOH, I still have a >couple of 386DX systems that have worked flawlessly since the day I >bought them. One uses DIP for memory; the other uses SIPPs. I have a SIIG 3000 Is a 3x4x12" box with VGA, RS170 video, 2 serial, 1 printer port and one slot for modem or NIC. IT's 386sx1/6 and my only beef with it is it maxes out at 5mb (1mb installed and 4mb of simms). Runs good uses wall wart for power and makes a killer linux router/nat box with a 400mb drive and 3.5" floppy. Beside being a good router it's small, a good reason to keep it. Allison > >So, perhaps my own was a victim of bad design. I never was even >tempted to purchase another, so bad was my experience. It's short life and bad design may be an indicator. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 08:24:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:24:31 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <0JRW006ZSVKLJ8M1@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:54:46 -0500 > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >All: > > As you all know from previous posts, I?m having trouble with the drive >system on my IMSAI. While I wait to receive a memory board and some other >stuff from a friend of mine, Herb Johnson gave me some new energy in looking >at the existing iCOM Frugal Floppy system. > > This system uses Pertec FD400 drives. One works perfectly, the other one >has consistent CRC errors as evidenced by the CRC light on the drive >cabinet, and BDOS errors reported by CP/M. I ensured that the spindle is >engaging the diskette hub, and I also cleaned the heads using a wet cleaning >diskette. Get in there and scrub the head with a swab. I found the wet disks didn't cut it long ago. Make sure the spindle speed is good and not irregular. Try swapping drives A and B and se if the problem moves with the drive or not. Just to make sure you not having a issues with something else. > > Is there any common failure mode on this model of drive that I should >start tracking down? Everyone I'd seen either had fallen apart mechanically (broken hubs, doors or other plastic) or the drive motor had gone noisy or mechanically flakey. NOTE: those motors often had bronze (oilite) bearings that dried out and then became oval or other wise out of useful shape. It was a side effect of lot of hours and the belts side tension. Result is the motor speed is uneven. I've seen bad boards too, usually tossed the board and salvaged from another mechanical pig. > I looked over the maintenance procedures for the drive >and many if the tests allude to a diagnostics program that can manually >control the spindle and head stepping. None of the iCOM manuals I have >provide diagnostics code for manually controlling the drives in this manner.. There maybe diags but your on you own to find them. > Before I start coding, does anyone have diagnostics code I can use? I >found some code in the SIGM archive (for the iCOM 3712 controller) but it >doesn?t seem to work properly with this controller. What controller (CHIP on the FDC board)? Allison > Thanks. > >Rich > >-- >Rich Cini >Collector of Classic Computers >Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >http://www.altair32.com >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Nov 22 11:34:53 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:34:53 -0800 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4745BDBD.1030808@msu.edu> > Not enough ram, at 8mb it become moderately useful. I used to make > headless print network servers that way. Install 95B, strip out OE/IE > and cruft install laser printer driver put on net. It usually fits > well in 100MB. Prefered CPU for that was any of the miniboard 386 or > 486s but one time I had a 386sx/16 brick and used it with good results > (it was a slow printer to start with). The boards with 86sx were best > cooling was never an issue so the fans could fail and CPU coolers > were not needed. > > Right, with 8mb or more RAM, win95 was a pretty decent experience most of the time. But my 20Mhz, 4mb, EGA machine was an experiment just to see what was the lowest spec hardware I could get 95 to run on. The lack of RAM was one thing, but the Miniscribe MFM drive and controller was what really made the experience :). No native 32-bit drivers for the controller, and a seek time of somewhere around 3 seconds (ok, I exaggerate) meant that the machine was waiting for the disk most of the time, and since it was swapping constantly... well, I booted it once just to say I'd done it and left it at that :). Josh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 14:36:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:36:25 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRX00E88D8ZQYN6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:28:30 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >>> Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's >>> From: "Chuck Guzis" >>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:38:01 -0800 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> On 20 Nov 2007 at 16:27, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) >>> Initially. A later version used the 286. The model 25 was, as far >>> as I'm aware, always an 8086. >> >> The model25 was 8088 powered and I think a few others of that series. > >Definitely not. 8086 or better. None ran an 8088. The one I have has an 8088, model 8530-002. Well actually I pulled the board out to use the case for an SB180 with Adaptec SCSI/MFM adpator, a Miniscribe 20mb disk plus reusing the 3,5" disk and power. Made a nice case for that. Been stripping the PCs board since. Must of had a strange one. ;) > >Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 18:09:14 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:09:14 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRX00ETXN3LQYC7@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:41:07 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 21 Nov 2007 at 7:32, Allison wrote: > >> >> Anyone remember the name of the program which facilitated this? >> > >> >Nope. Haven't a clue. >> >> 22nice and there were a few others. > >That was intended as a bit of mock humility... :) > >Cheers, >Chuck ;) Yep, and I've found people that used it have forgotten it existed along with many other still useful tools. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 18:12:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:12:17 -0500 Subject: VAXmate for Windows Message-ID: <0JRX00KBTN5LI7I2@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAXmate for Windows > From: Adrian Graham > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:49:48 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 22/11/07 14:03, "Allison" wrote: > >>> This is why I've kept some ST225s behind. I'm pretty sure both VAXmates are >>> hard driveless, though I can't really speak for the boxed one as I've never >>> really delved in further than below the top foam :) >> >> Generally thy are. Theres a seperate underbox that adds the hard drive >> and controller. > >Ah yes! I remember those now from somewhere like the DECdirect catalogues, >though I never saw them in the field....must've been too expensive for our >customers. > >>> Yep, the one I remember using was a PCSA terminal. This was shortly before >>> we went through the sheer pain of a PCSA to LANMAN migration with Pathworks >>> V5, that's a few weekends of my life I'm not going to get back, heh. >> >> It was during my time at DEC and they wer like flies there. I still >> have kits for PCSAV4 and V5. > >Mostly the same here, I'm a CDDS hoarder, but lost the PCSA floppies I had >many moons ago. I have the complete slipcase kits with PAKs, TK50s and floppies (5.25"). However with more modern PC OS (95 on) having DECnet as a networking option along with LANman I haven't used it much. I have the uVAXes! Allison > >-- >Adrian/Witchy >Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >collection? > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 03:02:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:02:14 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRX00E88D8ZQYN6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRX00E88D8ZQYN6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <47469716.4040004@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>>>> Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) >>>> Initially. A later version used the 286. The model 25 was, as far >>>> as I'm aware, always an 8086. >>> The model25 was 8088 powered and I think a few others of that series. >> Definitely not. 8086 or better. None ran an 8088. > > The one I have has an 8088, model 8530-002. Well actually I pulled > the board out to use the case for an SB180 with Adaptec SCSI/MFM > adpator, a Miniscribe 20mb disk plus reusing the 3,5" disk and > power. Made a nice case for that. Been stripping the PCs board > since. I've never owned a -002, but I have a -021 in the pile somewhere that definitely has an 8086. The IBM Internal sales spec sheet I have here shows the -002 having an 8MHz 8086. > Must of had a strange one. ;) If it was an 8088, you did indeed. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 23 03:12:02 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:12:02 +0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <006101c82d79$196d10d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <006101c82d79$196d10d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200711230912.02672.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 02:32:29 Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Oh I don't know. If you hate PCs so much.... > > Quite honestly, the *ONLY* reason I use PC's is because of the availability > of software (and the speed obviously). If it wasn't for that I'd probably > still be running my old MegaST. I'm just about to go and steal my Mega ST back from a mate of mine, purely so I can run Cubase on it. I'm looking forward to some old-school sequencing. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 23 03:16:02 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:16:02 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <009601c82d80$a6e86110$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <009601c82d80$a6e86110$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200711230916.02140.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 03:26:34 Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....remap "Caps Lock" to be "CTRL" on my Model M's (along > >with swapping ~ and ESC). > > Those are two of the things I detest the most about "modern" AT-style > keyboards. > > "ESC" should be top left and "Ctrl" should be immediately below the "TAB" > key. Oh, and most importantly, "Return" *SHOULD* be "J" shaped (or at least > horizontal) rather than these annoying vertical ones we're subjected to > nowadays....I'm forever hitting "#" by mistake, even to this day. You can tweak your keymap to swap CTRL and TAB. ESC is generally top left, and if you hit # instead of Return, then map # to be return and put the # on another key, maybe backtick (or even swap it for ? like a US layout). > Other than that they're OK; though I'd rather have the function keys down > the left hand side of the keyboard where they belong! :-) Hacksaw, Soldering iron, superglue, car body filler... Gordon From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Fri Nov 23 09:32:07 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:32:07 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <458328.86098.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <458328.86098.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <773AB507-CF86-447A-BAF6-75585D58B0D7@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 23 Nov 2007, at 01:07, Chris M wrote: > ... > TCP/IP is one thing. But knowing how a dd works > today?? If you're writing i/o it's one thing. > Otherwise phew. Not pointing fingers at you in particular, Chris, but I've been following this thread casually, and it seems to me that a lot of people's views of this are clouded by their own perspectives. I don't know what you interpret as "knowing how a disk drive works", but it's useful to understand that a hard-drive is a metal disk which spins on an unlubricated bearing at 7000rpm. By counting up the bits in 100gig demonstrates how small the "ones and zeros" are on a hard- drive and how small the tolerances are - hopefully this will discourage children from dropping hard-drives by careless handling! I was about 8 when my family got its - ummm... my father got his - BBC micro, so to some extent I've grown up with this. IMO the trick to teaching kids about computers is simply to give them the resources - they'll pick up what they want to, and absorb it like a sponge. The availability of BASIC on olden personal computers was undoubtedly a boon for my generation - you could start out with '10 print "i was here" ; 20 goto 10' and work from there, actually seeing the results of your programming on the screen. My introduction to arrays was a "write your own adventure game" book in which each room was stored in an array, which documented the writing of the sample program and which then encouraged you to go on and expand the castle. My father's interest was also very helpful - he had an "introduction to microcomputers" board and book from the Open University lying around the house which I was able to pick up and follow. The board had one or two figure-8 LEDs on it, some traffic lights and a 12- button keyboard for entering programs in machine code. But I was certainly never directed to this - at most he said "here! look what I did today" and showed me how he'd written a traffic-lights program on it (following from the book). So I certainly believe that the availability of a BBC micro or a microprocessor board make good toys, and that any number of "how computers work" kids books are worth having around - I spent my own pocket money on the latter, although the best ones are probably no longer available. But abstract discussion here of which teaching method is best and what "should" be learned "in the classroom" bears no comparison with the results of hands on experience - IMO the OP will have to try different books and computer models and see which makes his kid's eyes light up. IMO what's most important is AVAILABILITY - there'll come a stage when your kid asks "how do I do this, Dad?". Most kids don't have a platform on which arbitrary real tasks can be performed, so I'll assume that the kids of members of this list are ahead on this front already, but when the answer is "write a Bash script" just be ready to sit down and show him (or her). IMO the number of teenagers making significant contributions to Open Source Software is a testament to this "availability" theory. Stroller. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 23 10:05:25 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:05:25 -0600 Subject: Intro programming for kids (was: Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <4744A188.8060501@mainecoon.com> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <47446AF4.8090903@pacbell.net> <4744A188.8060501@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071123100328.05413008@mail.threedee.com> At 03:22 PM 11/21/2007, Chris Kennedy wrote: >At the risk of going utterly into the weeds on this one, we're having >good luck with both Alice and Storytelling Alice (both available from >http://www.alice.org) with our recently-turned six year old, despite the >fact that Alice is aimed at high school/intro college programming >students and Storytelling Alice at middle school students. I'll second that; a few years ago my then eleven- and nine-year-olds had fun with Alice. BASIC on an old Palm was a good choice, too - cheap, easy, very portable. Back in the old days, I remember writing endless lines of BASIC on sheets of paper in the back of the station wagon on long trips... - John From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Nov 23 10:18:18 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:18:18 +0000 Subject: Intro programming for kids (was: Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071123100328.05413008@mail.threedee.com> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <4744A188.8060501@mainecoon.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20071123100328.05413008@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <200711231618.18593.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 16:05:25 John Foust wrote: > Back in the old days, I remember writing endless lines of BASIC on > sheets of paper in the back of the station wagon on long trips... I had a 5" TV and a 12v to 9v regulator that I built, and a nice long cable to go in the lighter socket and run to the back seat, for mobile ZX Spectrum hacking. Gordon From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 11:12:45 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:12:45 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711220853.45742.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <6323899F-F85A-4630-A81E-B4C789AEA9E3@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <200711220853.45742.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200711231212.45877.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 03:53, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Of course, I've had this a few years, and perhaps IBM's (Lenovo's?) > > current keyboards aren't so good, but you can still pay 100 quid > > (that's c $200) for a keyboard if you want a good one. PCkeyboard.com > > offer buckling-spring models which feature the Windows key and which > > are "based on an award winning design, ... the same quality and crisp > > tactile feedback as their IBM predecessors"; if these are really as > > good as the model M, then I think there are few who would be unhappy > > Hmm. They look interesting. I couldn't see anything about buckling-spring > keyboards, but I might not have been looking hard enough. The idea of > custom keycaps sounds good - the Windows Objectors could get alternate > logos on their Windows keys. It isn't just the logo on the keys, though. It's the addition of those "extra" keys to the bottom row, and the consequent resizing of the existing alt and ctrl keys to allow them to fit, that's part of what's messing me up with those keyboards... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 11:27:25 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:27:25 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <1195773327.6834.6.camel@elric.inet> References: <64609.10439.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <1195773327.6834.6.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <200711231227.25506.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 18:15, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > My eight-year-old self was particularly impressed with the coloured ribbon > cables ;-) I still like those, and wish they weren't so darned expensive by comparison with the gray ones... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 11:40:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:40:30 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <773AB507-CF86-447A-BAF6-75585D58B0D7@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> References: <458328.86098.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, <773AB507-CF86-447A-BAF6-75585D58B0D7@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> Message-ID: <4746A00E.30014.42E90046@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2007 at 15:32, Stroller wrote: > Not pointing fingers at you in particular, Chris, but I've been > following this thread casually, and it seems to me that a lot of > people's views of this are clouded by their own perspectives. ... > IMO the number of teenagers making significant contributions to Open > Source Software is a testament to this "availability" theory. One thing that I've learned in my life is to never underestimate the capability of a young person to absorb knowledge. I do believe that it's not only possible but desirable to teach technical matters beginning with a "first principles" approach rather than a "cookbook" approach. I'll readily grant that some things may be too complex to effectively teach to the very young, such as economics, cosmological theories, the game of cricket... Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 11:58:17 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:58:17 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 18:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Nov 2007 at 23:09, Tony Duell wrote: > > I find such abstractions to be a major hinderance to learning, it comes > > under the 'oversimiplifcaiton' I mentioned last night. There are too many > > books at the 'this processr, this memory, this smack on head' level, and > > I have never been able to learn anything useful from a book that seems to > > suggest these various units operate on some kind of deep magic that I'll > > never understand. > > Good point. There is the concept of "depth" of understanding. Many > people who regard themselves as programming professionals would be > lost without an operating system. Some would be lost without an > assembler. And, sad to say, some would be lost without some sort of > Java facility. This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that considered themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > For some, that's not sufficient. Understanding how a disk drive > works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is essential to them. Some of us actually enjoy that sort of thing and some just want to be able to use the end result, or maybe tweak it a bit. > Beginning with a battery and a lamp, then moving to experimenting > with semiconductors, then developing logic elements and finally, > understanding the "guts" of a computer creates a depth of > understanding upon which to build. > > So my vote is for starting simple and building. Works for me, but then I suspect we're all a bunch of technophiles in here anyway... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 12:02:54 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:02:54 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <006101c82d79$196d10d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <006101c82d79$196d10d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200711231302.54776.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 22 November 2007 21:32, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Oh I don't know. If you hate PCs so much.... > > Quite honestly, the *ONLY* reason I use PC's is because of the availability > of software (and the speed obviously). If it wasn't for that I'd probably > still be running my old MegaST. While software is a lot of it, the "commodity" aspect of things and how far down that's tended to push prices is more the case in the peecee world than anywhere in the rest of computing, which all tends toward being somewhat more specialized. And being a cheap kinda guy, that factor has a lot of weight for me. :-) > >....you should have designed your own motherboard, so you > >could haevve done things properly... > > ....but if I'd done that I'd have used a 68K instead of that Intel garbage > IBM chose.... ;-) Ditto. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From scheefj at netscape.net Fri Nov 23 12:37:11 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:37:11 -0500 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <47471DD7.7050201@netscape.net> Not only can Win 3.0 run on an 8088 and CGA, it can be installed and run on an HP100LX or 200LX. It's a little slow with the very limited RAM but it does work. The weird part is that the mouse is nearly as large as the computer! Jim Allison wrote: >> Subject: Re: Windoze reqs >> From: Josh Dersch >> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:11:43 -0800 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> >> If I may ask, what was glitchy about video modes in Windows 3.1? I ran >> it at 640x480 for years without any obvious video issues... > > Same here, I still have a copy running on a laptop at that resolution. > >> As an aside, I had Win95 running on EGA for awhile just as an >> experiment. On a 386sx-20 with 4mb ram on a 65MB Miniscribe MFM drive. >> It ran, but that's about the only good thing I can attribute to the >> experience ;). > > Not enough ram, at 8mb it become moderately useful. I used to make > headless print network servers that way. Install 95B, strip out OE/IE > and cruft install laser printer driver put on net. It usually fits > well in 100MB. Prefered CPU for that was any of the miniboard 386 or > 486s but one time I had a 386sx/16 brick and used it with good results > (it was a slow printer to start with). The boards with 86sx were best > cooling was never an issue so the fans could fail and CPU coolers > were not needed. > > > Allison > >> Josh >> >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> 3.00 would (and did) run on 8088. One of the font editors that I used >>>>> >>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> >>>> Not only that, it worked properly with a CGA. >>>> >>> 3.10 would also work with CGA, but like all video modes, it was somewhat >>> glitchy. It appears to me that 3.10 was written by people using >>> 800 x 600. With a little playing around, it's probably not too hard to >>> determine which video board they used. >>> >>> >>> >>> From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 23 12:42:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:42:28 -0700 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <200711231302.54776.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <006101c82d79$196d10d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200711231302.54776.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47471F14.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> ....but if I'd done that I'd have used a 68K instead of that Intel garbage >> IBM chose.... ;-) > > Ditto. > No No No ... Use the CPLD design I am working on ( No floating point :( ) and have a machine at 5.33 MHZ (750 ns memory cycle). See faster than a Pee-cee at 4.77 MHZ :) Hard to say if it is faster than a Pee-cee as who knows how fast the PC runs with its pre-fetch buffer. Ben alias woodelf PS. And with every byte you get a free extra nibble over the PC. With octal digits your 256 KB of memory looks even more impressive than 5 hexadecimal digits. Well ok you could have 23 bits of address but I want to keep this in era of 16K dram chips and 256Kb is very large. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 13:02:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:02:50 -0800 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <47471DD7.7050201@netscape.net> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <47471DD7.7050201@netscape.net> Message-ID: <4746B35A.8366.43346351@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2007 at 13:37, scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > Not only can Win 3.0 run on an 8088 and CGA, it can be installed and run > on an HP100LX or 200LX. It's a little slow with the very limited RAM > but it does work. The weird part is that the mouse is nearly as large as > the computer! To keep the chronology of capabilities straight. Win 3.0 supported real, standard and enhanced 386 modes, 3.1 dropped real mode, WFWG 3.1 supported standard and 386 enhanced modes, 3.11 supported only 386 enahnced. Do I have that right? Or could you run WFWG 3.11 in standard mode? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 13:18:53 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:18:53 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47471F14.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200711231302.54776.rtellason@verizon.net> <47471F14.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711231418.53517.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 13:42, woodelf wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> ....but if I'd done that I'd have used a 68K instead of that Intel > >> garbage IBM chose.... ;-) > > > > Ditto. > > No No No ... Use the CPLD design I am working on ( No floating point :( ) > and have a machine at 5.33 MHZ (750 ns memory cycle). > See faster than a Pee-cee at 4.77 MHZ :) > Hard to say if it is faster than a Pee-cee as who knows how fast the PC > runs with its pre-fetch buffer. > Ben alias woodelf > PS. And with every byte you get a free extra nibble over the PC. > With octal digits your 256 KB of memory looks even more impressive > than 5 hexadecimal digits. Well ok you could have 23 bits of address > but I want to keep this in era of 16K dram chips and 256Kb is very large. You're welcome to, if that's what you wanna do, but even old CP/M boxes were much nicer when you had a whole bunch of RAM to work with. And there's this division between stuff I play with, on the one hand, and stuff I just *use*, on the other... A guy sent me 1G of ram, sitting here in 4 sticks. I haven't decided yet which box I'm gonna put it in, but I can't even picture how much bigger a pile that would amount to (never mind suppor hardware, board space, and power requirements) if one wanted to implement that in 16K parts. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 23 13:48:46 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:48:46 -0700 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <200711231418.53517.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711231302.54776.rtellason@verizon.net> <47471F14.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> <200711231418.53517.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47472E9E.2020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: A guy sent me 1G of ram, sitting here in 4 sticks. I haven't decided yet > which box I'm gonna put it in, but I can't even picture how much bigger a > pile that would amount to (never mind suppor hardware, board space, and > power requirements) if one wanted to implement that in 16K parts. Thank GOD that is not CORE. This small city here is the main memory ... :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 23 14:07:35 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:07:35 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <01C82D58.97F5CEE0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C82D58.97F5CEE0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:17:31 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting > >>Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a >>flickering fluorescent light. > > Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM > strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. > > FWIW, Hi I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 14:49:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:49:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRX00E88D8ZQYN6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <668373.73795.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > The one I have has an 8088, model 8530-002. Well > actually I pulled > the board out to use the case for an SB180 with > Adaptec SCSI/MFM > adpator, a Miniscribe 20mb disk plus reusing the > 3,5" disk and > power. Made a nice case for that. Been stripping > the PCs board > since. For one those are not vanilla floppy drives, unless I'm seriously mistaken. If that thing has an 8088, I want a picture. We all make mistakes, I'm not trying to harangue, but I've never heard of any PC/2 sporting an 8088. Are you sure it's a PC/2 (you know what I mean - PS/2)? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 15:04:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:04:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <773AB507-CF86-447A-BAF6-75585D58B0D7@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> Message-ID: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stroller wrote: > I don't know what you interpret as "knowing how a > disk drive works", > but it's useful to understand that a hard-drive is a > metal disk which > spins on an unlubricated bearing at 7000rpm. By > counting up the bits > in 100gig demonstrates how small the "ones and > zeros" are on a hard- > drive and how small the tolerances are - hopefully > this will > discourage children from dropping hard-drives by > careless handling! That explanation is little more then would be found in a "first look" approach book. Sure, everyone should know those basics (I'm guessing they're difficult to avoid). Tony was right. Many books are useless. I've looked at those (and the diagrams and explanations you'd see in PC Magazine over the years) and have been frustrated also. I don't know, some of the earlyish books on the peecee seemed to be what *I* was looking for (or needed). It comes down to what an individual has to know, wants to know, *can* know. It's different for everybody at least a little. But there's no sense getting too deep at the outset. But what do I know... > The availability of BASIC on olden personal > computers was undoubtedly > a boon for my generation - you could start out with > '10 print "i was > here" ; 20 goto 10' and work from there, actually > seeing the results Up through the PS/2's, ~1990 I guess, BASIC was burned into ROM. Even Win2K comes with QBasic. And again I'm not making an exclusive case for peecees here. An 8-bit machine could be a better choice (could be, don't know for sure). > of your programming on the screen. > IMO the number of teenagers making significant > contributions to Open > Source Software is a testament to this > "availability" theory. Well there's a huge amount of open source warez out there. Question is how much of it is quality, and what portion of that was contributed to by teenagers. And remember a *teen* is anywhere from 13-19. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 23 16:12:44 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:12:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. In-Reply-To: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071123221244.4CFA55675C@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Chuck Guzis > > On 16 Nov 2007 at 18:52, Michael Holley wrote: > > > I found an item based on a Commodore press release in Byte Magazine, > > February 1978, Page 190. This establishes the first shipment as mid October > > 1977. > > Does anyone collect Commodore wristwatches? Do any working ones > survive? > I know TPUG (http://www.tpug.ca) was selling a bunch of NOS C= wristwatches a few years back... Cheers, Bryan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 23 16:22:57 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:22:57 +0100 Subject: MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation (DPS-8 simulation) In-Reply-To: <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4738D2AD.4010803@bitsavers.org> <200711130121.55804.rtellason@verizon.net> <47397CB2.13442.F971AB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071123232257.5944de28@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:30:10 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > It just makes sense. It's a shame we don't any modern PCs with a > standardized peripheral processor structure, particularly given the > cost of a microcontroller nowadays. There was. Unfortunately it faild: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I2O There is or was a 100 MBit/s or 1 GBit/s Ethernet chip that used a build in MIPS core as controler. The DEC DEF[QTEP]A FDDI card uses a M68k to implement the complex SMT (Station MangemenT) in "hardware". Similar for the SGI GIO FDDI cards, they are driven by an AMD 29k. The Symbios / NCR SCSI chips have some sort of RISC core inside. I saw DEC PCI DSSI cards with 53C825 on them. So DEC rewrote the firmware of that RISC core to implement DSSI instead of SCSI. (AFAIK DSSI and SCSI are quite different as DSSI is just a cheap parallel physical transport for CI...) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 23 16:50:53 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:50:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that considered > themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! or RPG, or SQL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 23 16:52:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:52:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071123145109.F99016@shell.lmi.net> Any kid who is educationally advanced enough to do these various methods is far enough along to be able to MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE as to "first principles", "abstraction", "structured", "procedural" PIC, logic gates, etc. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Nov 23 16:57:12 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:57:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711232300.SAA28910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that >> considered themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > or RPG, > or SQL Hey! I don't know RPG or dbase, but I have learnt a bit of SQL, and I don't think it's unfair to think, or speak, of working with SQL as programming. It's a rather unusual language, mostly declarative rather than imperative, and somewhat specialized, but it certainly demands many of the same skills and mindsets as programming in more conventional languages, and it's not all _that_ outr? a language. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 17:05:27 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:05:27 -0800 Subject: Booting XXDP+ from a secondary controller In-Reply-To: <00cd01c82d7e$bead0b40$3c0721c0$@com> References: <00cd01c82d7e$bead0b40$3c0721c0$@com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90711231505lf408ad2n704b6024f6ac664@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 22, 2007 7:12 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: > Is there a way to boot XXDP+ from a secondary MSCP controller (e.g. CSR at > 760334) ? > > This isn't a PDP-11 boot ROM issue - the -11 (a 11/53+ in this instance) > ROM has no problem booting from a secondary controller. > > The issue is that, once started, XXDP doesn't know that it should talk to > this alternate CSR address and promptly dies. > > Thanks, > > Bob Armstrong > What are you using for the primary and secondary MSCP controllers and what disk units do you have configured on each controller? I'm pretty sure I have seen the same symptoms you have described when trying to boot XXDP from a secondary MSCP controller, but I just tried this now and it seems to be working with this particular combination of controllers: 772150 CMD CQD-220/TM DU0,DU1,DU2,DU3 (SCSI HDs) 760334 Dilog SQ703 DU4 (SCSI CD-ROM with XXDP V2.5 image) With M7625 KA655 in backplane: >>>SHOW DEV UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150) -DUA0 (RA81) -DUA1 (RA81) -DUA2 (RA81) -DUA3 (RA81) UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334) -DUB4 (RA80) UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500) -MUA0 (TK70) Ethernet Adapter 0 (774440) -XQA0 (08-00-2B-0E-E5-E7) With M8190 KDJ11-B in backplane: Testing in progress - Please wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. Type a command then press the RETURN key: BOOT DU4 Trying DU4 Starting system from DU4 BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DU4 124KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! .DIR DU0: ENTRY# FILNAM.EXT DATE LENGTH START VERSION 1 XXDPXM.SYS 1-MAR-89 39 000522 F.0 2 XXDPSM.SYS 1-MAR-89 29 000571 E.0 3 DRSXM .SYS 1-MAR-89 48 000626 C.0 4 DRSSM .SYS 1-MAR-89 24 000706 G.2 5 DIR .SYS 1-MAR-89 7 000736 D.0 6 DB .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 000745 C.0 7 DD .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000747 D.0 8 DL .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000752 D.0 9 DM .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000756 C.0 10 DR .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000762 C.0 11 DU .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000765 E.0 12 DY .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000771 D.0 13 LP .SYS 1-MAR-89 1 000774 B.0 14 MM .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000775 C.0 15 MS .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 001000 C.0 16 MU .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 001004 E.0 17 DATE .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 001010 B.0 18 DUSZ .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 001012 C.0 FREE BLOCKS: 65011 .DIR ENTRY# FILNAM.EXT DATE LENGTH START VERSION 1 XXDPXM.SYS 1-MAR-89 39 000522 F.0 2 XXDPSM.SYS 1-MAR-89 29 000571 E.0 3 DRSXM .SYS 1-MAR-89 48 000626 C.0 4 DRSSM .SYS 1-MAR-89 24 000706 G.2 5 DIR .SYS 1-MAR-89 7 000736 D.0 6 DB .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 000745 C.0 7 DD .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000747 D.0 8 DL .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000752 D.0 9 DM .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000756 C.0 10 DR .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000762 C.0 11 DU .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 000765 E.0 12 DY .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000771 D.0 13 LP .SYS 1-MAR-89 1 000774 B.0 14 MM .SYS 1-MAR-89 3 000775 C.0 15 MS .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 001000 C.0 16 MU .SYS 1-MAR-89 4 001004 E.0 17 DATE .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 001010 B.0 18 DUSZ .SYS 1-MAR-89 2 001012 C.0 19 UPDAT .BIC 1-MAR-89 29 001014 20 XTECO .BIC 1-MAR-89 26 001051 21 DXCL .BIN 1-MAR-89 44 001103 22 SETUP .BIC 1-MAR-89 27 001157 23 PATCH .BIC 1-MAR-89 31 001212 24 HELP .TXT 1-MAR-89 29 001251 25 11V23Q.CCC 1-MAR-89 1 001306 26 11T23Q.CCC 1-MAR-89 1 001307 27 11V3LQ.CCC 1-MAR-89 1 001310 28 11T23H.CCC 1-MAR-89 3 001311 29 MNC11A.CCC 1-MAR-89 1 001314 30 MNC11 .CCC 1-MAR-89 1 001315 31 MINC11.CCC 1-MAR-89 1 001316 32 11T3LQ.CCC 1-MAR-89 1 001317 33 11T3LH.CCC 1-MAR-89 3 001320 34 11V3LH.CCC 1-MAR-89 4 001323 35 11T03E.BIN 1-MAR-89 27 001327 36 PDT^C . From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 23 17:06:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:06:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <4746B35A.8366.43346351@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <47471DD7.7050201@netscape.net> <4746B35A.8366.43346351@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071123150444.H99016@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To keep the chronology of capabilities straight. Win 3.0 supported > real, standard and enhanced 386 modes, 3.1 dropped real mode, WFWG > 3.1 supported standard and 386 enhanced modes, 3.11 supported only > 386 enahnced. > Do I have that right? Or could you run WFWG 3.11 in standard mode? Hmmm. didn't try that I used a somewhat unorthodox approach to finding the differences. I opened the calculator in Win 3.11, and asked it to calculate 3.11 - 3.10 It gave an answer of 0 From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 17:19:34 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:19:34 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <47472E9E.2020607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200711231418.53517.rtellason@verizon.net> <47472E9E.2020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200711231819.35107.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 14:48, woodelf wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > A guy sent me 1G of ram, sitting here in 4 sticks. I haven't decided > yet > > > which box I'm gonna put it in, but I can't even picture how much bigger > > a pile that would amount to (never mind suppor hardware, board space, > > and power requirements) if one wanted to implement that in 16K parts. > > Thank GOD that is not CORE. This small city here is the main memory ... :) Yeah, not to mention what it would take to power it... I notice that even those guys that are building relay computers "cheat" and use a single small solid-state chip for RAM. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 17:18:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:18:22 -0800 Subject: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. In-Reply-To: <20071123221244.4CFA55675C@mail.wordstock.com> References: <473DF74E.17005.2115F274@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071123221244.4CFA55675C@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4746EF3E.23875.441E54D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2007 at 17:12, Bryan Pope wrote: >> I know TPUG (http://www.tpug.ca) was selling a bunch of NOS C= > wristwatches a few years back... So who owns a working Sinclair LED "Black Watch"? Personally, I don't think a working "Black Watch" ever existed... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 17:26:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:26:19 -0800 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <20071123150444.H99016@shell.lmi.net> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4746B35A.8366.43346351@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071123150444.H99016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4746F11B.9778.44259A7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2007 at 15:06, Fred Cisin wrote: > I used a somewhat unorthodox approach to finding the differences. I > opened the calculator in Win 3.11, and asked it to calculate 3.11 - 3.10 > It gave an answer of 0 I never could figure out what happened to WFWG 3.2, 3.3., 3.4, 3.5....3.9 and 3.10. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 23 17:18:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:18:27 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20071123231827.GA8621@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 02:50:53PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that considered > > themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > > or RPG, > or SQL Or as one wannabe "programmer" I worked with used - Labview! Sorta like saying owning Lego makes one a civil engineer. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 23-Nov-2007 at 23:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -31.4 F (-35.2 C) Windchill -47.9 F (-44.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.6 kts Grid 117 Barometer 678.0 mb (10704 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 23 18:05:10 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:05:10 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <474408D6.23290.38CA59F0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <004001c82e2d$ae9a4150$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....there was a survey performed by one of the trade rags >(EETimes?) that asked the question. "Did you have any >involvement with electronics as a hobby before you began >studying engineering?" > The results were quite startling--something like 96% of those >surveyed said "yes". Raises hand.... I suspect many of us on this list would say the same? TTFN - Pete. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 23 18:05:33 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:05:33 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > > I notice that even those guys that are building relay computers "cheat" and > use a single small solid-state chip for RAM. :-) > Hi I've been thinking about how one could make a reasonable memory, using small reed relays. If one puts a magnet close to one end, it will cause the reed to close. Move it back some and it will hold until the field is too weak. If one set the magnet someplace in the middle of this band, one could use the direction of current through the coil to set and reset the contacts. One could create an array of these for the memory. Placing small magnets in opposite directions for adjacent bits would keep from building too high a field buildup, in the array. I was thinking that one could use small round magnets glued to the end of a threaded rod. This could then be adjusted to optimize the memory. Now all I need is a pile of reed relays. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 23 18:18:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:18:34 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <006c01c82e2f$8d784830$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....I did wonder about a C64, but maybe it'd be better to >start with something a bit more simple? i.e. probably >something Z80 or 6502-based.... Actually, the C-64 wouldn't be a bad machine to sttart out on. It's a pretty simple system to get to grips with initially, it has an adequate BASIC available immediately and if he ever wants to try assembly language it's 6502 based.... And it's got some pretty powerful graphics/sound hardware in there too if he ever gets *that* interested in programming. TTFN - Pete. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 23 17:36:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:36:22 -0700 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <200711231819.35107.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711231418.53517.rtellason@verizon.net> <47472E9E.2020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <200711231819.35107.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474763F6.9090300@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I notice that even those guys that are building relay computers "cheat" and > use a single small solid-state chip for RAM. :-) Could CORE be developed to just use relay switching speeds and logic? Zuse's mechanical memory is a marvel. > http://www.epemag.com/zuse/part6a.htm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 18:14:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:14:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 23, 7 12:07:35 pm Message-ID: > >>Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a > >>flickering fluorescent light. > > > > Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM > > strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. > > > > FWIW, > > Hi > I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM > can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. I think you're both saying the same thing. Assuming you're in the States and have a 60Hz light source available, then take the standard '300 rpm 50/60Hz' strobe disk found on, say, the TM100. The '60Hz bars' will let you check a 300rpm spindle (obviosuly), the '50Hz bars' _used with a 60-Hz lamp_ will check a 360rpm spindle. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 18:10:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:10:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711231227.25506.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Nov 23, 7 12:27:25 pm Message-ID: > > On Thursday 22 November 2007 18:15, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > My eight-year-old self was particularly impressed with the coloured rib= > bon > > cables ;-)=20 > > I still like those, and wish they weren't so darned expensive by compari= > son=20 > with the gray ones... :-) And I wish I could still buy the raw 'rainbow' cable. Maplin (who used to sell it by the foot) have stopped doing it, and I really can't afford a 30m rell from the likes of RS components. Certainly not in all thw widths I would use. It's not so importiant when both ends are IDC connectors, but when you want to split up the cable and solder the wires individually to connector pins, switches, etc, having the 'rainbow' stuff sure saves a lot of counting mistakes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 17:53:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:53:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <458328.86098.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 22, 7 05:07:51 pm Message-ID: > > > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > For some, that's not sufficient. Understanding how > > a disk drive > > works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is > > essential to them. > > TCP/IP is one thing. But knowing how a dd works > today?? If you're writing i/o it's one thing. > Otherwise phew. I assume 'dd' means disk drive here. Most of the time I use 'dd' to mean 'convert and copy' :-) Anyway, understanding how a disk drive works would seem to be important if : You need to repari a disk drive (perhaps one that handles unusuallu-sized disks, or which has an odd host interface so you can't use a standard modern srive to repalce it) You need to design a replacement for a disk drive (e.g. using flash memory) You need to read media from said drive You are designing an improved storage system. Many times old ideas come round again You are naturally curious and just like knowing how things work Nost people will never do any of the above, but that's no reason not to understnad disk drives if you want to. One other thing I've discovered time and again (in all sorts of areas) is that there's a big difference between the ideallised version presented in most books and the actual, paractical, device. And often it's those little details that are interesting. > > > Beginning with a battery and a lamp, then moving to > > experimenting > > with semiconductors, then developing logic elements > > and finally, > > understanding the "guts" of a computer creates a > > depth of > > understanding upon which to build. > > > > So my vote is for starting simple and building. > > If my opinion matters, it's a little too intense from > the get-go. I'd concentrate on the *vagueries* of ic's > and work down as necessary. Even w/assembly language, > just how much of what goes on at the gate level is I am wodnering why you assume that computers have to be approached from the software side. Perhaps some people prefer to think in terms of the gates, and programming is a 'necessary nuisance' to get the final hardware to do something (if you doubt such people exist, well, I can assure you you're talking to one). I would agree that msot, if not all, application programmers don't _need_ to know what goes on at the gate level, just as most hardware designers don't _need_ to know numertical algorithms. It doesn't mean they shouldn't look into such areas if they're interested. > useful? Few, make that precious few have any clue what > goes on in a uP at the level you're talking about. > Sure it would be great for a kid/? to learn how to > build a discrete logic cpu. But that's an awfully > specialized area of computing for most of us. > Amidst the ensuing cries of treason or the like, a > lot of people feel that entering opcodes in hex on a > keypad is a tad *tedious* (polite version). Different > strokes for different folks I guess though. How many > people actually need to program in assembly language > these days?? As time progresses, a lot of the > knowledge that was essential in earlier times will > cease to be a necessity. I know the original question > was posed on a vintage list, but is it necessary to > learn on an 8-bit unit? There may be some good reasons > to, but if at all possible learn on something that's > going to be more relevant to today's environment (and > even that's a stretch in the case of an early pc). You are, I think, in danger of coufusing details with principles. It's the difference between understanding algorithms/understanding program methodology and, say, knowing where to put semicolons in C. If you understand the former, you are, IMHO a good programmer (and can learn just about any (procedural) language in a couple of days at most. But alas far too many people think that 'programming' == 'ability to code in a particualr language'. It's actually much the same in hardare. For example, the basic Eccles-Jordan (flip-flop) circuit can be built with just abotu any 2 devices that can be turned on and off. Triodes (and other valves), transistors, FETs, relays, and so on. Understnading basicl principles like that is much more valuable than knowing how to use the current IC (which will have been sperceded in a couple of months anyway). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 18:02:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:02:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 22, 7 06:42:38 pm Message-ID: > For 50 Hz, the 300 RPM is easy but the 360 doesn't work > out. One gets 16.66 flashes per rotation. > The only way I can think to make this work is to make a spiral > that would have 50 dark and light strips over 3 revolutions. Remember that waht you really require is that he disk 'looks the same' at each flash of the LED. The obvious way to get this is to have the right number of blocks so that each block has got to the position of the next one between flashes, but it doesn' have to be 'the next one'. Having 3 times as many blocks (with each block ending up 3 positions further on) would work, I think. That said, the only drives I have which are 360rpm are 8" ones iwth mains-powered motors. Since the spindle speed is determined by the mains frequency (unless the belt is slipping or something), there's little point in having a stroboscpe disk o nthe spidnle, to check the speed against that same mains freqeuncy. So I've never seen a strobe sdisk on such a drive. > Ones eye would tend to follow the spiral. I'm not sure how > to do this with a spread sheet. > Maybe it could be done with some postscript code but > I'm not sure how. I'm not goint to tr to write it now, but it should be fairly easy to write a little loop to draw and fill the appropriate blocks (cricular arcs for 2 of the edges, radii of the circles of the other 2. And then print it out. -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 23 18:11:06 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:11:06 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <171452.91774.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005501c82e2e$82735930$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Frankly though, I don't see how an English home >could be called one w/o Clive Sugar's 628?.... Surely you mean Alan Sinclairs' C-32? ;-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Fri Nov 23 18:15:46 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:15:46 +0000 Subject: keyboards In-Reply-To: <200711231212.45877.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <6323899F-F85A-4630-A81E-B4C789AEA9E3@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <200711220853.45742.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <200711231212.45877.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 23 Nov 2007, at 17:12, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > ... > It isn't just the logo on the keys, though. It's the addition of > those "extra" keys to the bottom row, and the consequent resizing > of the > existing alt and ctrl keys to allow them to fit, that's part of > what's > messing me up with those keyboards... Might be up your street: I sound like I'm pitching for them, but honestly I have no relation. In fact, I've never used one of these guys' keyboards, so can't say for sure that they're as good as an original Model M. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 18:10:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:10:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <861828.41765.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > This reminds me of folks I used to run into back > in the day that considered > > themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > > or RPG, > or SQL RPG aint' a real language? I have a couple of *recent* books on RPG stashed away someplace if anyone is interested. 1 or both might still be in the shrinkwrap. One had to do with *subfile* programming, whatever that is. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Fri Nov 23 18:13:04 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:13:04 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711220853.45742.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200711211806.49420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <6323899F-F85A-4630-A81E-B4C789AEA9E3@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <200711220853.45742.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <8811FAEB-B02D-4AE0-B574-A56A28A9EA32@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 22 Nov 2007, at 08:53, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> .... >> Of course, I've had this a few years, and perhaps IBM's (Lenovo's?) >> current keyboards aren't so good, but you can still pay 100 quid >> (that's c $200) for a keyboard if you want a good one. PCkeyboard.com >> offer buckling-spring models which feature the Windows key and which >> are "based on an award winning design, ... the same quality and crisp >> tactile feedback as their IBM predecessors"; if these are really as >> good as the model M, then I think there are few who would be unhappy > > Hmm. They look interesting. I couldn't see anything about > buckling-spring > keyboards, but I might not have been looking hard enough. The idea > of custom > keycaps sounds good - the Windows Objectors could get alternate > logos on > their Windows keys. Yeah, I'm finding their site hard to navigate, too. "Our corporate history stretches only back to April, 1996, when we purchased keyboard technology from Lexmark, former manufacturer of IBM keyboards." They seem to avoid saying, "this is a Model M", but instead "Customizer is the marketing name we've given to our classic IBM style keyboards." You'll see that "buckling spring" is mentioned in the "technology" drop-down - you can choose a quieter option instead. Since KDE & Gnome undoubtedly offer mappings & shortcuts which make use of the Windows key I'm surprised you can't get a penguin as a standard option, although this seems not to have been a big seller for Cherry (AFAICT they've discontinued this model): Stroller. From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 17:42:01 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:42:01 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711232300.SAA28910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> <200711232300.SAA28910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200711231842.01908.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 17:57, der Mouse wrote: > >> This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that > >> considered themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > > > > or RPG, > > or SQL > > Hey! I don't know RPG or dbase, but I have learnt a bit of SQL, and I > don't think it's unfair to think, or speak, of working with SQL as > programming. It's a rather unusual language, mostly declarative rather > than imperative, and somewhat specialized, but it certainly demands > many of the same skills and mindsets as programming in more > conventional languages, and it's not all _that_ outr? a language. Well, if SQL is a language that might need the sophistication of say c or Pascal or similar, then dbase would be on about the same level as BASIC... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 19:04:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:34 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <01C82D58.97F5CEE0@host-208-72-122-54.dyn.295.ca>, Message-ID: <47470822.20436.447F9071@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2007 at 12:07, dwight elvey wrote: > I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM > can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. Is it possible to construct an accurate 50 Hz strobe disc for 360 RPM drives? Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 23 17:02:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:02:15 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6AC2B38B-3C78-4475-9B51-358DAC285635@neurotica.com> On Nov 23, 2007, at 12:58 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Good point. There is the concept of "depth" of understanding. Many >> people who regard themselves as programming professionals would be >> lost without an operating system. Some would be lost without an >> assembler. And, sad to say, some would be lost without some sort of >> Java facility. > > This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that > considered > themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! I worked as a dBase (well, Clipper, a dBase compiler) for many years...it's every bit a legitimate programming language, in every way I can think of. That was my "day job"...I was programming in C and FORTRAN at home during that time, so yes, I was indeed aware of what a "real" language was...and dBase definitely qualifies. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 23 17:09:09 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:09:09 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <458328.86098.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <458328.86098.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61899370-3DED-4924-917E-0F8D95C0BC61@neurotica.com> On Nov 22, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Chris M wrote: >> For some, that's not sufficient. Understanding how >> a disk drive >> works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is >> essential to them. > > TCP/IP is one thing. But knowing how a dd works > today?? If you're writing i/o it's one thing. > Otherwise phew. I suppose it really depends on whether or not one wants to be an effective programmer, or how well one wants to know one's tools. I find myself constantly explaining things to "computer people" who don't know how computers work. Knowing how things work at a basic level allows one to figure out everything else intuitively as they go along. I know a "hardware guy" who had no idea why his hard drive was ruined when he stacked a large magnet atop it while it was on the bench. I've never done such a thing, because I...(wait for it...) know how a disk drive works. If one is content to use a tool without knowing anything about it, one must be content to look like an idiot and always ask stupid questions of those who have bothered to learn a few things about the world they live in. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bob at jfcl.com Fri Nov 23 19:44:06 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:44:06 -0800 Subject: Booting XXDP+ from a secondary controller Message-ID: <00ff01c82e3b$8334e890$899eb9b0$@com> > Glen Slick (glen.slick at gmail.com) wrote: >What are you using for the primary and secondary MSCP controllers and >what disk units do you have configured on each controller? What I'm trying to do is very much like you configuration - my real 11/53 has a KDA50 with 2xRF70 drives and the secondary MSCP controller is a SQ703. You can demonstrate my problem with simh, though - build a bootable XXDP+ v2.5 on a RD52 image, and then do this... sim> show cpu CPU, 11/53, NOCIS, idle disabled, autoconfiguration on, 3072KB sim> show rq RQ, address=17772150-17772153*, no vector, 2 units RQ0, 159MB, attached to one.rd54, write enabled, RD54 RQ1, 159MB, attached to two.rd54, write enabled, RD54 sim> show rqb RQB, address=17760334-17760337*, no vector, 30MB, attached to xxdp25.rd52, write enabled, RD52 sim> b rqb0 HALT instruction, PC: 016146 (CLR (R1)) If you attach xxdp25.rd52 to rq0, it'll boot fine - sim> att rq0 xxdp25.rd52 sim> b rq0 BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR ... etc, etc .... I suspect you have to patch something in the XXDP+ image with UPDAT to get it to talk to the secondary CSR, but I don't know the details. Thanks, Bob From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 23 21:40:02 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:40:02 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <01C82E21.F8184E00@MSE_D03> --------------Original Messages: Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:58:17 -0500 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers... On Thursday 22 November 2007 18:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Good point. There is the concept of "depth" of understanding. Many > people who regard themselves as programming professionals would be > lost without an operating system. Some would be lost without an > assembler. And, sad to say, some would be lost without some sort of > Java facility. This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that considered themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > For some, that's not sufficient. Understanding how a disk drive > works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is essential to them. Some of us actually enjoy that sort of thing and some just want to be able to use the end result, or maybe tweak it a bit. ------------Reply: Well, you've just insulted several thousand professional dBase programmers, myself included, with your elitist snobbery. I would guess that a competent dBase programmer would probably have the average small database program completed and delivered in the time it would take just to lay out, code and debug the necessary file- and screen-handling routines in most of the other comparable languages of the day, at least until you'd built up a decent and relevant library. Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it better; in my opinion taking advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you more professional, not less. A programming professional's job is to deliver a product that meets the client's needs, is well documented and easily maintained, and is delivered on time and within budget. Knowing or caring about the arcane details of a disk drive or being able to program an OS-less computer in binary may matter if you're working on an embedded controller but it's pretty irrelevant if the project is a client accounting system for a large financial institution. What is important is good communication and organizational skills, the ability to conceptualize, proficiency in the use of whatever tools are appropriate to the job at hand, and enough humility to give the client what he/she really wants instead of what he/she *should have*, qualities often lacking in the "hacker" mentality. The same applies to the original topic: among the many replies suggesting how a child *should* learn about computers, I didn't see many suggestions that the child him/herself might be the best judge and perhaps the best approach might be to explore what his/her interests are (instead of what yours were), and provide whatever resources are appropriate and relevant to those interests. m From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 20:45:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:45:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <593999.3166.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> > I am wodnering why you assume that computers have to > be approached from > the software side. Perhaps some people prefer to > think in terms of the > gates, and programming is a 'necessary nuisance' to > get the final > hardware to do something (if you doubt such people > exist, well, I can > assure you you're talking to one). I already knew that. But even you can't get away w/o some coding now and again. And I think s/w is a bit more then a "necessary nuisance". W/o it, the hardware is useless. Now this doesn't mean you personally have to love it, but you lie at an extreme in terms of interests. Even those interested in hardware to whatever degree feel the desire to write some botched up assembly code. For the average orangutang (like me) if you want to *get into* a computer, you're going to learn how to program it, likely at a low level. It's asking way too much of the vast majority of people to alter their h/w, or sometimes even fix something (granted 80% of problems are easy to diagnose. The other 20% call for the ol' chip swapping methodology ,). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 20:56:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:56:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <005501c82e2e$82735930$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <945848.65679.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Frankly though, I don't see how an English home > >could be called one w/o Clive Sugar's 628?.... > > Surely you mean Alan Sinclairs' C-32? ;-) Yeah I botched that up good. Amstrad CPC-464. Locomotive BASIC! Were there proprietary chips in the thing? Yikes the 664 had a built in floppy. Were these sold in Canada? I want a 464, and that means now. Alan Sugar I think is his correct name. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 21:01:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:01:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <006c01c82e2f$8d784830$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....I did wonder about a C64, but maybe it'd be > better to > >start with something a bit more simple? i.e. > probably > >something Z80 or 6502-based.... > > Actually, the C-64 wouldn't be a bad machine to > sttart out on. > > It's a pretty simple system to get to grips with > initially, it has an > adequate BASIC available immediately and if he ever > wants to try assembly > language it's 6502 based.... > > And it's got some pretty powerful graphics/sound > hardware in there too if he > ever gets *that* interested in programming. The C64 is a great machine, but you're not going to learn many *deep* details about the hardware (not that it's necessarily an issue). Hardware sprites - dead easy to program and even in BASIC the motion is smooth. The 64 has the weirdest video memory layout you could ask for (afaik), and the books aren't always cheap (eBay). A few of them are a necessity. I went looking for some and was astounded at the prices they were getting. Maybe that's died off. If you can find someone with a whole cache of stuff, you'd luck out. I do have a book about interfacing to it's various i/o ports, and even a book on "advanced" assembler. Even got a book on basic assembler, and it's likely the best one out there. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 21:08:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:08:06 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 22, 7 06:42:38 pm, Message-ID: <47472516.27603.44F0A682@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2007 at 0:02, Tony Duell wrote: > That said, the only drives I have which are 360rpm are 8" ones iwth > mains-powered motors. Since the spindle speed is determined by the mains > frequency (unless the belt is slipping or something), there's little > point in having a stroboscpe disk o nthe spidnle, to check the speed > against that same mains freqeuncy. So I've never seen a strobe sdisk on > such a drive. No, but 5.25" HD drives as well as 3.5" drives for the NEC 9801-type platforms do spin at 360 RPM. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 23 21:23:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:23:34 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474763F6.9090300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <200711231819.35107.rtellason@verizon.net>, <474763F6.9090300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <474728B6.30147.44FED1D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2007 at 16:36, woodelf wrote: > Could CORE be developed to just use relay switching speeds and logic? > Zuse's mechanical memory is a marvel. > > http://www.epemag.com/zuse/part6a.htm There are many kinds of mechanical memory. In particular, I recall an early TTY device that used a large rotating drum with cams embedded in the surface. One could flip a cam one way or the other and then read them out. I'm trying to remember what sort of machine this was used on and its application, but my memory sadly fails me. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 17:30:08 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:30:08 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 16:04, Chris M wrote: > > The availability of BASIC on olden personal computers was undoubtedly > > a boon for my generation - you could start out with '10 print "i was > > here" ; 20 goto 10' and work from there, actually seeing the results > > Up through the PS/2's, ~1990 I guess, BASIC was burned into ROM. Even Win2K > comes with QBasic. And again I'm not making an exclusive case for peecees > here. An 8-bit machine could be a better choice (could be, don't know for > sure). Speaking of which, I have a vague recollection of "Tiny BASIC". Never did actually use it, though. Any of you guys familiar with it? Is it all that usable? At all extensible? I can see where it might be handy for some stuff... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 23 22:35:29 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:35:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Nov 23, 7 06:30:08 pm" Message-ID: <200711240435.lAO4ZTBf020346@floodgap.com> > Speaking of which, I have a vague recollection of "Tiny BASIC". Never did > actually use it, though. Any of you guys familiar with it? Is it all that > usable? At all extensible? I can see where it might be handy for some > stuff... http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/kim-1/emu.html Isn't Tom Pittman on this list? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- That's enough to make me LOL out loud. -- "Monk" --------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 23 22:42:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:42:04 -0700 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <004001c82e2d$ae9a4150$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <474408D6.23290.38CA59F0@cclist.sydex.com> <004001c82e2d$ae9a4150$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4747AB9C.7090406@jetnet.ab.ca> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....there was a survey performed by one of the trade rags >(EETimes?) > that asked the question. "Did you have any > >involvement with electronics as a hobby before you began > >studying engineering?" > The results were quite startling--something > like 96% of those >surveyed said "yes". > Raises hand.... > > I suspect many of us on this list would say the same? Umm I would raise my hand too but lego and tree-houses don't count. :) > > TTFN - Pete. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 23 22:46:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:46:12 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <449FB679-8989-4FC7-8B88-0D7F78A8761E@neurotica.com> On Nov 23, 2007, at 5:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that >> considered >> themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > > or RPG, > or SQL With all due respect, methinks someone doesn't know a whole lot about RPG or SQL...both are perfectly valid programming languages by any reasonable definition. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 23 23:39:28 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 05:39:28 -0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: , <200711231819.35107.rtellason@verizon.net>, <474763F6.9090300@jetnet.ab.ca> <474728B6.30147.44FED1D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <004c01c82e5c$61f08240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....used a large rotating drum with cams embedded in the >surface.... >....trying to remember what sort of machine this was used >on and its application, but my memory sadly fails me. Flight computer on the Russian "Soyuz" spacecraft? TTFN - Pete. From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Nov 24 00:40:39 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:40:39 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <01C82E3B.5BC45200@MSE_D03> ------------Original Messages: > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:17:31 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting > >>Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a >>flickering fluorescent light. > > Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM > strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. > > FWIW, Hi I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. Dwight ----------Reply: Well, unless you're just saying that a 60Hz 360RPM strobe disk (if you had one) would also sync at 300RPM under a 50Hz light, I don't see what's backward. The point was that 50/60Hz 300RPM strobe disks are common, and if you're in a 60Hz zone you can use the same disk for 8" and dual-speed drives as well. m From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Nov 24 00:41:53 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:41:53 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <01C82E3B.5CF271C0@MSE_D03> --------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:14:35 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting > >>Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a > >>flickering fluorescent light. > > > > Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM > > strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. > > > > FWIW, > > Hi > I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM > can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. I think you're both saying the same thing. Assuming you're in the States and have a 60Hz light source available, then take the standard '300 rpm 50/60Hz' strobe disk found on, say, the TM100. The '60Hz bars' will let you check a 300rpm spindle (obviosuly), the '50Hz bars' _used with a 60-Hz lamp_ will check a 360rpm spindle. -tony -------------Reply: Yes, I think that's exactly what I said, although I included Canada and any other place that uses 60Hz, and I don't see what's backward about it. I only mentioned this happy coincidence (and almost regret having done so) because I thought perhaps not everyone in 60Hz country was aware that they could use a common 50/60Hz strobe disk off a 300RPM drive to also check the speed of a 360RPM 8" or dual-speed drive. m From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 23 23:57:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:57:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <4746F11B.9778.44259A7E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4746B35A.8366.43346351@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071123150444.H99016@shell.lmi.net> <4746F11B.9778.44259A7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071123215109.O17000@shell.lmi.net> > > I used a somewhat unorthodox approach to finding the differences. I > > opened the calculator in Win 3.11, and asked it to calculate 3.11 - 3.10 > > It gave an answer of 0 On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I never could figure out what happened to WFWG 3.2, 3.3., 3.4, > 3.5....3.9 and 3.10. MS-DOS version numbers are ALWAYS an integer, a period, then a two digit decimal number (stored internally in binary). There was never a DOS version "3.3", but there was a "3.30". It was internally stored as 3 and THIRTY. (1E03) Ver "6.2" was actually 6 and TWENTY, etc. (1406) Were Windoze versions stored similarly? If so, then "3.1" was actually 3 period TEN, (0A03)? and "3.11" was actually 3 period ELEVEN. (0B03)? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 24 00:04:09 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:04:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <449FB679-8989-4FC7-8B88-0D7F78A8761E@neurotica.com> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4745A4C2.199.3F13640A@cclist.sydex.com> <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> <449FB679-8989-4FC7-8B88-0D7F78A8761E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20071123215846.X17000@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 23, 2007, at 5:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that > >> considered > >> themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > > > > or RPG, > > or SQL > > With all due respect, methinks someone doesn't know a whole lot > about RPG or SQL...both are perfectly valid programming languages by > any reasonable definition. With all due respect, the attributions are not completely correct. I was NOT the one who made the remark about dBase. My remark(s) was that rejection of dBase based on whether or not it meets the DEFINITION of a "language" would apply similarly to RPG and SQL as well. None of which is relevant to my incompetence at RPG, SQL, and dBase systems. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Nov 24 04:13:15 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:13:15 +0000 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1195899195.6473.1.camel@elric.inet> On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 00:02 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > That said, the only drives I have which are 360rpm are 8" ones iwth > mains-powered motors. Since the spindle speed is determined by the mains > frequency (unless the belt is slipping or something), there's little > point in having a stroboscpe disk o nthe spidnle, to check the speed > against that same mains freqeuncy. So I've never seen a strobe sdisk on > such a drive. I'm vaguely reminded of my late father absent-mindedly fiddling with the frequency counter he built, and (momentarily) being terribly impressed that its 1MHz clock was running at dead-on 1000000Hz... Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Nov 24 04:21:46 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:21:46 +0000 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <200711231212.45877.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <6323899F-F85A-4630-A81E-B4C789AEA9E3@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <200711220853.45742.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <200711231212.45877.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1195899706.6473.4.camel@elric.inet> On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:12 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > It isn't just the logo on the keys, though. It's the addition of > those "extra" keys to the bottom row, and the consequent resizing of the > existing alt and ctrl keys to allow them to fit, that's part of what's > messing me up with those keyboards... Am I being particularly dense here? I don't really see the problem. If the Windows key is where you expect the ALT key to be, just remap it... Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Nov 24 04:23:40 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:23:40 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1195899820.6473.7.camel@elric.inet> On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 00:10 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > And I wish I could still buy the raw 'rainbow' cable. Maplin (who used to > sell it by the foot) have stopped doing it, and I really can't afford a > 30m rell from the likes of RS components. Certainly not in all thw widths > I would use. But a roll of the widest stuff you're going to use, and slit it down? It's not like you'll *never* use it all. I have started buying components and cable and things in large quantities because it's cheaper and easier than buying small amounts. Gordon From grant at stockly.com Sat Nov 24 04:41:34 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:41:34 -0900 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <1195899820.6473.7.camel@elric.inet> References: <1195899820.6473.7.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <0JS0008W9B4NQ100@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 01:23 AM 11/24/2007, you wrote: >On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 00:10 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > And I wish I could still buy the raw 'rainbow' cable. Maplin (who used to > > sell it by the foot) have stopped doing it, and I really can't afford a > > 30m rell from the likes of RS components. Certainly not in all thw widths > > I would use. > >But a roll of the widest stuff you're going to use, and slit it down? > >It's not like you'll *never* use it all. I have started buying >components and cable and things in large quantities because it's cheaper >and easier than buying small amounts. Did my post to the list about the 1 hour relay computer movie make it? The movie has a lot of info... Grant From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Nov 24 08:44:57 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:44:57 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available Message-ID: Hi all,Last week I hired a truck to pick up a "few" things ...- H960 rack with PDP-11/45 and a Cypher 100 tape drive ("not working" sticker attached to the Cypher)- H960 rack with PDP-11/55 with 28k fast memory (according to the post-it attached to it)- H960 rack with TU45 ("seems complete" says the post-it)- H960 rack with TU16 (capstan rooler is goo)- H960 rack with communications stuff (see below)- two RK07 disk drives- RM03 disk drive- RM03P disk pack with diagnostics- two DECprinter I- DECwriter II- cabinet with SYSTIME SYSTAPE II unit (capstan also goo)- a few boxes, one contains a complete RH11-AB- RT-11 V5.4 SRC micro fiche (#1 - #86) in two envelopes complete with the Bill of Material!- complete RT-11 V4 manual set in blue binders- complete RT-11 V5 manual set in orange bindersNeedless to say that my wife was not so glad when I got home :-)I took pictures while unloading, and they will be on my website,probably a good moment to do that are the Xmas holidays ...I plan to get rid of most of this, and use parts to get otherunits in my collection restored into working order. The 11/45will go to Edward, the 11/55 is a great addition to my UNIBUSmachines collection.Most of the stuff will probably be too heavy to ship ...I disassembled the BA-11F with the comm stuff. The completepower harnass is for whom it wants/needs. I can take pictures.The BA11 contained two DR11-B 4-slot backplanes, populated withM7219, M208 (2x) M7821, M796, M205, M^11 (2x) M112, M113, M239and an M9680 DR11-B test connector board, power 'paddle' board,and connector board M9760 with two cables attached to it withon the other end one connector board (single height) M908?That single height connector board went into a small rack-mountunit with a 2-row backplane containing the folowing boards:M5950 (8x), M3020 (3x), M205 (5x), M111, M112, M306, M611 andone onit has M113 (3x) and the other unit has M113 (1x) andM1131 (2x). One unit was marked "RX", the other was marked "TX".On the side of the backplane is a label with this text:DIGITAL CSS P/N 2M-C121A S/N NU00001 DX40AB.The other unit has the same lable, but S/N is NU00002!Each unit has its own power supply, H716A.I elaborated a bit more about the comm stuff, because I reallydon't have a use for it, unless dismantling it. So, if somebodywants this (DR11-B or DX40 or everything), let me know.I have no idea what the things weigh, so neither do I know whatthe shipping costs would be. Free pick up in The Netherlands :-) allthough recovering some money from hiring the truck would be nice.I am also looking for two buttons of the TU45. They are damaged.It's the lower two on the control panel, "FILE PROT" and "1600BPI".thanks,Henk From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Nov 24 09:08:45 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:08:45 -0500 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <4746B35A.8366.43346351@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <47471DD7.7050201@netscape.net> <4746B35A.8366.43346351@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47483E7D.5090406@netscape.net> Chuck, You are correct. WfWg 3.11 does not run in standard mode. I just tested it. Jim Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Nov 2007 at 13:37, scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > > >> Not only can Win 3.0 run on an 8088 and CGA, it can be installed and run >> on an HP100LX or 200LX. It's a little slow with the very limited RAM >> but it does work. The weird part is that the mouse is nearly as large as >> the computer! >> > > To keep the chronology of capabilities straight. Win 3.0 supported > real, standard and enhanced 386 modes, 3.1 dropped real mode, WFWG > 3.1 supported standard and 386 enhanced modes, 3.11 supported only > 386 enahnced. > > Do I have that right? Or could you run WFWG 3.11 in standard mode? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 24 09:14:18 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:14:18 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711240435.lAO4ZTBf020346@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200711241516.lAOFGNE8004158@billy.ezwind.net> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:35:29 -0800 (PST), Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Isn't Tom Pittman on this list? It would be great if he was, my first high level language was Tom's tiny basic for the AMI EVK300. He cut tapes in those days on a 4004 system driving a teletype running out on his porch so he could sleep with it running at night. He had the only 4004 with a floppy controler I have ever seen running. It would have been about 1979/80 when I lost track of him. He had just finished the RCA cosmac version the week I stopped by to see him, and had a few hours to chat. The other Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 24 11:39:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:39:58 -0700 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <0JS0008W9B4NQ100@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <1195899820.6473.7.camel@elric.inet> <0JS0008W9B4NQ100@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <474861EE.6080904@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > Did my post to the list about the 1 hour relay computer movie make it? > The movie has a lot of info... Yes, but on dial up I did not want to download it. > Grant > Still trying to remap his windows key to 'any other' key. :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 24 11:39:20 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:39:20 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > > Speaking of which, I have a vague recollection of "Tiny BASIC". Never did > actually use it, though. Any of you guys familiar with it? Is it all that > usable? At all extensible? I can see where it might be handy for some > stuff... > Hi A search on the web will show a couple of listing of a version of Palo Alto Tiny BASIC that I posted years ago. It was slighly modified from the original to allow on to expand it. It had I/O for the Poly88 but it could be easily connected to any serial streams terminal. It fit in 2 2708s which was great for the Poly88. I wrote 3 extentions that I used. These could be loaded on the fly from the cassette tape, with the BASIC program that that used them. I added PEEK, POKE and SAVE. PEEK and POKE were useful with the Poly88's video. SAVE made it simple to save any new programs that also need these extras. The bad part was that the extended code had to be done in assembly code and required a reasonable understanding of how Tiny BASIC worked inside. If one wanted to work with an extensible language, Forth is the most flexible. It is also one of the best for understanding more complex programming concepts. It isn't that it has them built in, it is that it contains all the building blocks needed to create them. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 24 12:02:54 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:02:54 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <01C82E3B.5BC45200@MSE_D03> References: <01C82E3B.5BC45200@MSE_D03> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > > ------------Original Messages: >> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:17:31 -0800 (PST) >> From: Fred Cisin >> Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting >> >>>Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a >>>flickering fluorescent light. >> >> Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM >> strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. >> >> FWIW, > > Hi > I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM > can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. > Dwight > > ----------Reply: > Well, unless you're just saying that a 60Hz 360RPM strobe disk (if you had one) > would also sync at 300RPM under a 50Hz light, I don't see what's backward. Hi That is what I said. The disk with 20 bands would work for both a 360 RPM and 60Hz light or a 300 RPM and 50 Hz light. Tony mentioned that one could increase the number of bands for the problem of the 50Hz with a 360 RPM drive. It makes sense. A strobe disk with 50 bands would work for this problem. One could multiply the number of bands by any integer and it would still work. Multiplying 16.667 times 3 gives a nice integer value of 50. Tony mentioned that most 8 inch drives were speed controlled by the mains and as long as the belt was in good shape, using a strobe wasn't much needed. Yaers back, a friend and I were able to aquire drives that were setup for 50Hz 220V. We wanted to use these with a put together Series II Intel machine. We're 60Hz 115V here. We put a strobe disk on the flywheel and took a flat file to the motor pully. About 20 mintes of grinding brought the drive to the right speed. The voltage was solved by a buck transformer created from some universal transformers we got from some surplus supplies. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 24 12:26:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:26:24 -0800 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <20071123215109.O17000@shell.lmi.net> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4746F11B.9778.44259A7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071123215109.O17000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4747FC50.18260.48395F88@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2007 at 21:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > MS-DOS version numbers are ALWAYS an integer, a period, then a two digit > decimal number (stored internally in binary). There was never a DOS > version "3.3", but there was a "3.30". It was internally stored as 3 and > THIRTY. (1E03) Ver "6.2" was actually 6 and TWENTY, etc. (1406) I think you're right. I'll have to get out my copies of Windows NT 3.2, 3.3 and 3.4 to check for similar incremental versions.... :) > Were Windoze versions stored similarly? > If so, then "3.1" was actually 3 period TEN, (0A03)? > and "3.11" was actually 3 period ELEVEN. (0B03)? Internally, as a return from GetVersionEx, 32-bit Windoze versions are kind of strange: Windows Server 2008 6.0 Windows Vista 6.0 Windows Server 2003 R2 5.2 Windows Server 2003 5.2 Windows XP 5.1 Windows 2000 5.0 Windows Me 4.90 Windows 98 4.10 Windows NT 4.0 4.0 Windows 95 4.0 So Windows Server 2003 actually registers as being later than XP--and ME shows as being version 90 (that should have been a hint to everyone that MICROS~1 wasn't going to take the 9x platform any further. The Win16 GetVersion() simply returns 32 bits; the low order word is divided into MajorVersion/MinorVersion bytes with the build number or 0 in the high-order word. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 24 13:21:57 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:21:57 -0500 Subject: Golden Triangle Disktwin (Nubus) References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4746F11B.9778.44259A7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071123215109.O17000@shell.lmi.net> <4747FC50.18260.48395F88@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002201c82ecf$47fa67c0$42aab941@game> I recently snagged some old Mac Nubus cards, one of which was a Golden Triangle Disktwin card. Anybody have the control panel for this card? It was used to mirror a work HD in the background (it is a SCSI card with external connector) incase the main drive up and dies. The mac you use it on can not see it so you cannot erase it accidentally. Like most items sold by companies that are no more and pre internet, there is very little on the internet about this card. TZ From ray at arachelian.com Sat Nov 24 17:32:23 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:32:23 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711240435.lAO4ZTBf020346@floodgap.com> References: <200711240435.lAO4ZTBf020346@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4748B487.8060203@arachelian.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Speaking of which, I have a vague recollection of "Tiny BASIC". Never did >> actually use it, though. Any of you guys familiar with it? Is it all that >> usable? At all extensible? I can see where it might be handy for some >> stuff... >> > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/kim-1/emu.html > > Isn't Tom Pittman on this list? > > I'm partial to BWBasic... it had a very interesting feature... very large number support, so you could do things like implement RSA if you were so inclined... :-) I'm not sure of the current state it's in now, haven't played with it for a long while. The last time I touched it, someone had turned it into a shell program... Can be found here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bwbasic/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 24 17:39:08 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:39:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fwd: ZX-81 Euro Meet Message-ID: <475780.58140.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Just found out about this (see below). I apologise if someone has already sent an email to the list about it (still behind in my emails). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > Amazing that 27 years after its launch there is > planned the 12th annual meet of the ZX Team > in Mahlerts Germany. > > > 11th -13th April 2008 > > www.zx81.de > From ray at arachelian.com Sat Nov 24 17:45:32 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:45:32 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4748B79C.5060602@arachelian.com> Chris M wrote: > The C64 is a great machine, but you're not going to > learn many *deep* details about the hardware (not that > it's necessarily an issue). Hardware sprites - dead > easy to program and even in BASIC the motion is > smooth. C64 BASIC is pretty bad. PET BASIC or better yet, C128 Basic were a lot better. I suppose with the Simon's Basic cart, C64 BASIC was quite nice. Sure, you can do a lot with C64 Basic, but everything is a poke, peek, or a SYS call. It's much nicer when the BASIC you're using has commands for all that stuff built in. Then again, if you can master the peeks and pokes, you're better off writing 6502 code. I'm really partial to the C128 which had a built in machine language monitor. You could press the reset switch while holding RUN-STOP and it would drop you into the monitor. You could then disassemble/hack or just save whatever was in memory previously and it wouldn't wipe away any of the memory except for a few things in low RAM such as the display. As long as you could re-enter the program, or figure out how to capture the low memory and then stitch it back together, you were "in". Was really great for breaking C64 protected stuff that only checked at startup. :-D I almost never wound up using a proper assembler since the monitor was always available. Was a bit rough debugging stuff, since it meant having to add in lots of patches, but it worked nicely... no worse than debugging basic programs by inserting lines and replacing lines with gosub's when you had to... > The 64 has the weirdest video memory layout > you could ask for (afaik), and the books aren't always > cheap (eBay). A few of them are a necessity. I went > looking for some and was astounded at the prices they > were getting. Maybe that's died off. If you can find > someone with a whole cache of stuff, you'd luck out > Sounds like a perfect thing for BitSavers - assuming availability, of course. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 17:41:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:41:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <593999.3166.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 23, 7 06:45:50 pm Message-ID: > I already knew that. But even you can't get away w/o > some coding now and again. And I think s/w is a bit True enough. I may not enjoy it (at least not compared to hardware), but yes, I can program. > more then a "necessary nuisance". W/o it, the hardware > is useless. Now this doesn't mean you personally have And without the heardware, the software is essentially useless (you don't want to had-simulate every program, now do you :-)) More seriously, that's why I said _necessary_ nuisance. I may not really enjoy writing the programs, but I do agree they're necessary. > to love it, but you lie at an extreme in terms of > interests. Even those interested in hardware to > whatever degree feel the desire to write some botched > up assembly code. For the average orangutang (like me) Assembly language is ratehr too high level for me. I prefer microcode (only semi-joking ;-)) > if you want to *get into* a computer, you're going to > learn how to program it, likely at a low level. It's > asking way too much of the vast majority of people to > alter their h/w, or sometimes even fix something I don;t dispute that at all. My point is that when you're starting out there is no reason why you can't start from the hardware side of things if that's what you prefer. Sure, most people don't, and sure software is easier in that if you make a mistake you don't normally let the magic smoke out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 17:44:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:44:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <945848.65679.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 23, 7 06:56:05 pm Message-ID: > Yeah I botched that up good. Amstrad CPC-464. > Locomotive BASIC! Were there proprietary chips in the > thing? Yikes the 664 had a built in floppy. Were these I would have to dig out the service manuals to be sure, but I would think there was at least one gate array in there to handle video. The video system was non-standard enough that they can't have used something like a TMS9927 (is that the PAL version of the 9918, I forget), and if they'd built it all from TTL, it wouldn't have fitted in the case :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 17:46:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:46:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <47472516.27603.44F0A682@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 23, 7 07:08:06 pm Message-ID: > > No, but 5.25" HD drives as well as 3.5" drives for the NEC 9801-type > platforms do spin at 360 RPM. True. I do know that fro the 600 rpom Sony 3.5" drives, the procedure for checking the spindle speed is to measure the period of the index pulses (it's actually physically impossible to put a srobe disk on those drives...). I assume the same method can be used on any drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 17:54:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:54:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <01C82E21.F8184E00@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Nov 23, 7 10:40:02 pm Message-ID: > Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it better; in my opinion taking > advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you more > professional, not less. I would agree, but... 1) Being able ot use the tools, however proficiently, does not necessarily equate with being able to design/make those tools. I haev never used dBase (or any other database for that matter), so I can't comment on that, but I will claim that being able to use _some_ application programs does not make you a programmer. 2) The initial question was about education. Education is not production. When you're prodcuing something, of course you use all the applicable tools. When you're leaning about things, you have to do things 'by hand' to understand them (and example of this, from another context, is that photography couses used to insist that the students used cameras with manaul focuessing and exposure cotnrol, so they could learn what said adjustments meant, even though if you were being paid to take photographs you would _probably_ welcome some automation). I fact I will go further and say that the true professionals not only use the right tools, but also fully understnad how those tools work and behave, because that way they can use them more effectvely. > > A programming professional's job is to deliver a product that meets the client's > needs, is well documented and easily maintained, and is delivered on time and > within budget. Knowing or caring about the arcane details of a disk drive or being > able to program an OS-less computer in binary may matter if you're working on > an embedded controller but it's pretty irrelevant if the project is a client accounting > system for a large financial institution. Tuew, but a 'client system for a large finanicail instution' is hardly the only type ofr computer application. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 17:56:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:56:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4747AB9C.7090406@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Nov 23, 7 09:42:04 pm Message-ID: > > Ensor wrote: > > Hi, > > > > >....there was a survey performed by one of the trade rags >(EETimes?) > > that asked the question. "Did you have any > > >involvement with electronics as a hobby before you began > > >studying engineering?" > The results were quite startling--something > > like 96% of those >surveyed said "yes". > > Raises hand.... > > > > I suspect many of us on this list would say the same? > Umm I would raise my hand too but lego and tree-houses don't count. :) I will 'raise my hand'. In fact I had electronics as a hobby before I even went to school (seriously). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 17:58:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:58:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <1195899195.6473.1.camel@elric.inet> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Nov 24, 7 10:13:15 am Message-ID: > > > On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 00:02 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > That said, the only drives I have which are 360rpm are 8" ones iwth > > mains-powered motors. Since the spindle speed is determined by the mains > > frequency (unless the belt is slipping or something), there's little > > point in having a stroboscpe disk o nthe spidnle, to check the speed > > against that same mains freqeuncy. So I've never seen a strobe sdisk on > > such a drive. > > I'm vaguely reminded of my late father absent-mindedly fiddling with the > frequency counter he built, and (momentarily) being terribly impressed > that its 1MHz clock was running at dead-on 1000000Hz... My frequency counter, an old HP, has a test mode that does exactly that. While it's obviously no use for checking the frequency of the mast clock, it is useful for verifying that the clock divider chain and gate control logic are working correctly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 17:34:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:34:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <47470822.20436.447F9071@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 23, 7 05:04:34 pm Message-ID: > Is it possible to construct an accurate 50 Hz strobe disc for 360 RPM > drives? Of course it is. I believe you can do it for any speed and light frequency, sctually. 50Hz presumably is 100 flashes/second (I am assuming you are using a mains-energized neon lamp or something). First try making one for 300 flashes per second. That one is trivial, 360rpm is 6 revs/second, so 1/50th of a revolution per flash. So 50 spots works. Now realise that said disk will also work at 100 flashes per second. The fact that a given spot has moved 3 positions, not one, between flashes is not noticeable since all dots look the same This is actually a problem with strobe disks. A disk that will indicate, say, 360rpm will also appear to be stationary at 720rpm (or any integer multiple of the speed). I susepct you'd notice if your disk drive was spinning twice as fast as normal, but I would alwaus check the index pulse timing 'looks sensible' There should be (here) 6 index pulses per second. You can check that quite easliy with a 'scope or counter. The result will not normally be accurate enough to set the speed, but it will make sure you're near enough the right speed that the stroboscope will let you lock to that speed, not twice it or whatever. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 24 18:39:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:39:47 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <47470822.20436.447F9071@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 23, 7 05:04:34 pm, Message-ID: <474853D3.2119.498F3A29@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2007 at 23:34, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is it possible to construct an accurate 50 Hz strobe disc for 360 RPM > > drives? > > Of course it is. I believe you can do it for any speed and light > frequency, sctually. Interesting--I've run into strobe discs for 45 rpm phono use that claim that it's only possible to get a 50 Hz strobe lock at 45.1 RPM. Let's see--45 rpm is 0.75 rev/second. 0.75 of 50 Hz is 37.5, but 75 at 100 Hz. So, a strobe disc with 75 divisions should appear to be stable with a 100 Hz strobe light. I wonder why the weasel words, then? Cheers, Chuck From bob at jfcl.com Sat Nov 24 18:53:27 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:53:27 -0800 Subject: Booting XXDP+ from a secondary controller In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90711232324s583fc925x486ed0804b5643e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <00cd01c82d7e$bead0b40$3c0721c0$@com> <1e1fc3e90711231009s6ed7105bmdae3803f4afd3296@mail.gmail.com> <00fe01c82e3a$d4588110$7d098330$@com> <1e1fc3e90711232324s583fc925x486ed0804b5643e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015e01c82efd$973dea40$c5b9bec0$@com> > Glen Slick (glen.slick at gmail.com) wrote: >On simh it appears that attaching the disk to rqb0 >resulted in a unit 0 drive on the secondary MSCP controller and I >couldn't find any options to configure the unit number. Does XXDP require all MSCP unit numbers be unique? I thought that was just RSTS... You can do this in simh by attaching the xxdp25.rd52 image to the device rqb2, since the primary rq controller just uses drives 0/1. When I did this, I got the same result (i.e. a halt) as before. >Have you tried this on the real hardware yet? On the real hardware >what unit is the drive you are trying to boot on the SQ703? Yes, on the real hardware it doesn't halt; it just seems to hang forever. The dialog goes something like this (I'm retyping this from my VT320, so excuse any typos) - Commands are Help, Boot, List, Map, Test and Wrap. Type a command then press the RETURN key: B/A DU2 Address = 17760334 DU2 ... hangs here .... BTW, I was wrong before; my SCSI controller is actually a SQ739 rather than a 703, but I doubt that changes anything. There are two SCSI devices on the SQ739, an Exabyte 8505 tape drive and a RRD43 (a Toshiba something or other) CDROM. The SQ739 is configured for 17760334 for MSCP and the RRD43 is configured as MSCP unit 2 (i.e. DU2). Maybe there's something wrong with the way I'm making the CD image? Did you do anything special when you made yours? Thanks, Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 24 19:45:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:45:01 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4cf9064bd448d5a6c569bda9162a668a@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> ....there was a survey performed by one of the trade rags >>>> >(EETimes?) >>> that asked the question. "Did you have any >>>> involvement with electronics as a hobby before you began >>>> studying engineering?" > The results were quite >>>> startling--something >>> like 96% of those >surveyed said "yes". >>> Raises hand.... >>> >>> I suspect many of us on this list would say the same? >> Umm I would raise my hand too but lego and tree-houses don't count. :) > > I will 'raise my hand'. In fact I had electronics as a hobby before I > even went to school (seriously). Same here, started when I was ~7. My tree house had electricity and running water. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Nov 24 20:24:41 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 02:24:41 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4748B79C.5060602@arachelian.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4748B79C.5060602@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20071125022441.GB28838@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 06:45:32PM -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > The C64 is a great machine, but you're not going to > >learn many *deep* details about the hardware I built plenty of add-on devices for the User Port and the joystick ports when I was a teenager (I got my hands on my first C-64 when I was 15, and by 16, I owned one). How deep do you mean here? It's a little tougher to find a cartridge-port proto board than it used to be, so building your own SCSI or IDE or Ethernet interface from scratch might be somewhat advanced, but hanging LEDs or switches off of one of the other ports is easy enough, and easy enough to control from BASIC. > C64 BASIC is pretty bad. PET BASIC or better yet, C128 Basic were a lot > better. I suppose with the Simon's Basic cart, C64 BASIC was quite nice. How is C-64 BASIC bad compared to PET BASIC? They are virtually identical. Do you mean because the PET lacks a SID chip and sprites and bitmapped graphics, the BASIC is "better"? > Then again, if you can master the peeks and pokes, you're better off > writing 6502 code. I'm really partial to the C128 which had a built in > machine language monitor. As did BASIC 2 and BASIC 4 PETs (just not the original chicklet-keyboard PET - on that one, you had to load the monitor from tape). The ML monitor on PETs was nice to have - better IMO than a blue "READY" screen - but anyone who was serious about it gave up one of their two or three precious expansion ROM sockets for a better monitor. ISTR SuperMon was pretty good. I forget what I have in my 2001-32N, but one nice feature is that it would assemble and disassemble on the fly - scroll up or down to rip though memory. I used that monitor to write a ML Scott Adams Adventure runtime in high school (i.e. - it's good enough for programs larger than the cassette buffer, especially if you don't have a disk drive and a proper symbolic assembler). I think the PET is a great teaching machine for kids, but I admit that I'm biased - the first machine I got to use, and the first machine I owned, was a PET. Given the costs, decreasing availability, etc., of the PETs and PET peripherals, I would probably recommend the C-64 in its place. There were millions and millions of them made, they are still abundant and inexpensive, and they have many of the same features that make the PET interesting, and only lack a small number (like the built-in ML monitor). If you desire a greater hardware angle than a packaged system provides, there are a number of recent reimplementations of classic designs - I've built the Elf 2000, along with many of its peripherals, and I have a MicroKIM here, and am gathering parts. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Nov-2007 at 02:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -30.5 F (-34.7 C) Windchill -30.5 F (-34.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 0.0 kts Grid 265 Barometer 678.8 mb (10674 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Nov 24 21:10:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 03:10:18 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an EagleCAD library with the TIL-311 hex display? Message-ID: <20071125031018.GA29437@usap.gov> Hi, all, I am starting a new project and was disappointed to find that the default EagleCAD libraries don't have the TIL-311 hex display already entered (or at least not that I can find). If anyone happens to have that part in a library already, it would save me entering it in. Also... if you've read this far, does anyone know off the top of their head what the TIL part number is for the *decimal* version of the TIL-311 as well as any version with an embedded counter (TIL-307? TIL-309?) I remember these parts were discussed on the list sometime back, but the specific part numbers escape me at the moment. I know I can get TIL-311s new for about $15 each, and NOS and pulls for $2-$3 each. I'm curious about the other versions in the hopes that with lower demand comes lower prices on the used market. I have enough TIL-311s on hand to do what I want, but that doesn't leave me many spares. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Nov-2007 at 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -32.6 F (-35.9 C) Windchill -32.6 F (-35.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 0.0 kts Grid 171 Barometer 678.8 mb (10674 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 24 21:27:18 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:27:18 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <474853D3.2119.498F3A29@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47470822.20436.447F9071@cclist.sydex.com> from <474853D3.2119.498F3A29@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 24 Nov 2007 at 23:34, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Is it possible to construct an accurate 50 Hz strobe disc for 360 RPM >>> drives? >> >> Of course it is. I believe you can do it for any speed and light >> frequency, sctually. > > Interesting--I've run into strobe discs for 45 rpm phono use that > claim that it's only possible to get a 50 Hz strobe lock at 45.1 RPM. > > Let's see--45 rpm is 0.75 rev/second. 0.75 of 50 Hz is 37.5, but 75 > at 100 Hz. So, a strobe disc with 75 divisions should appear to be > stable with a 100 Hz strobe light. > > I wonder why the weasel words, then? > Hi 75 is a lot of bands. I'd think that it would need to be a larger disk. Still 45 for a 60 Hz would be 90. Are you sure your not thinking of 33 1/3. That is a lot tougher or 78. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From ray at arachelian.com Sat Nov 24 21:39:20 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:39:20 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071125022441.GB28838@usap.gov> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4748B79C.5060602@arachelian.com> <20071125022441.GB28838@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 06:45:32PM -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> Chris M wrote: >> >>> The C64 is a great machine, but you're not going to >>> learn many *deep* details about the hardware >>> > > I built plenty of add-on devices for the User Port and the joystick > ports when I was a teenager (I got my hands on my first C-64 when I was > 15, and by 16, I owned one). How deep do you mean here? It's a little > tougher to find a cartridge-port proto board than it used to be, so > building your own SCSI or IDE or Ethernet interface from scratch > might be somewhat advanced, but hanging LEDs or switches off of one > of the other ports is easy enough, and easy enough to control from > BASIC. > I didn't write the above sentence that you've replied to here, so I'll let Chris answer that. :-) > > >> C64 BASIC is pretty bad. PET BASIC or better yet, C128 Basic were a lot >> better. I suppose with the Simon's Basic cart, C64 BASIC was quite nice. >> > > How is C-64 BASIC bad compared to PET BASIC? They are virtually > identical. Do you mean because the PET lacks a SID chip and sprites > and bitmapped graphics, the BASIC is "better"? > > C64 BASIC is V2.0. There are no disk commands at all. You need to use OPEN and LOAD ,8,1. There's no CATALOG command, etc. PET - at least the 4032's I used, had BASIC 4.0. Note that I commented only on the BASIC, not the SID, not the sprites, not the bitmapped graphics. Obviously a machine with bitmapped graphics, sprites, color, and sounds is going to be a lot more interesting. The C128 BASIC's, V7.0 I believe had commands for things like graphics and sounds. The C64 did not, and you could only get at those features by poking. Some things on the PET, you had to poke - sound for instance, but at least the disk access stuff had built in commands. >> Then again, if you can master the peeks and pokes, you're better off >> writing 6502 code. I'm really partial to the C128 which had a built in >> machine language monitor. >> > > As did BASIC 2 and BASIC 4 PETs (just not the original chicklet-keyboard > PET - on that one, you had to load the monitor from tape). > Well, don't confuse BASIC with the monitor. :-) Not having to load the Monitor from tape made the C128 very useful as previously mentioned for cracking C64 software. You can't quite load a monitor into memory and not wipe a chunk of memory. Worse yet, if you had to reset the machine and then load a monitor, you would have lost the program you were trying to crack. > The ML monitor on PETs was nice to have - better IMO than a blue "READY" > screen - but anyone who was serious about it gave up one of their two or > three precious expansion ROM sockets for a better monitor. ISTR SuperMon > was pretty good. I forget what I have in my 2001-32N, but one nice feature > is that it would assemble and disassemble on the fly - scroll up or down > to rip though memory. Yup, sounds like the same one used in the C128, or at least the same kind of thing. > I used that monitor to write a ML Scott Adams > Adventure runtime in high school (i.e. - it's good enough for programs > larger than the cassette buffer, especially if you don't have a disk drive > and a proper symbolic assembler). > It's perfectly suited for writing code, and a lot less trouble than a full assembler. Well, I suppose that depends on the type of programmer. If you want nice neat clean code with subroutines, you'll want the full symbolic assembler, otherwise the monitor was more than enough since you could tweak code on the fly and mess with it and see the results instantly (or crash the machine.) :-) I forget what the weird assembler was called, but it used the C64's BASIC editor - I think it just disabled the tokenizer, so you still had to write code with line numbers, and use the same editing features of basic (List command, cursor up, down, etc..) but you could use it for assembly, then I think you had either another program to run to assemble and yet another to link or a command. I personally found it insanely slow to code that way, so the monitor was a godsend for me... > I think the PET is a great teaching machine for kids, but I admit that I'm > biased - the first machine I got to use, and the first machine I owned, was > a PET. Given the costs, decreasing availability, etc., of the PETs and PET > peripherals, I would probably recommend the C-64 in its place. There were > millions and millions of them made, they are still abundant and inexpensive, > and they have many of the same features that make the PET interesting, and > only lack a small number (like the built-in ML monitor). > > If you desire a greater hardware angle than a packaged system provides, there > are a number of recent reimplementations of classic designs - I've built the > Elf 2000, along with many of its peripherals, and I have a MicroKIM here, > and am gathering parts. > Yeah, it depends on what the kid's trying to do. For assembly, a C64 or a PET is perfectly fine. For hardware hacking there's a wide range of stuff to do, and C64s are indeed more plentiful incase of mistakes, it's easier to get replacement parts.. The User port on the 64's have nice wide fingers, perfect for soldering a bunch of wires to interface to, and the CIA's are pretty easy to do I/O on - much nicer than trying to interface on a PC's parallel port, especially since it was bidirectional and gave you full access to the machine. For learning BASIC though, you're better off with a nicer one like in the C128, or an expanded one for the C64. Of course there are always emulators and such if a real machine can't be found, but it's just not the same. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 24 21:47:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:47:56 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <47470822.20436.447F9071@cclist.sydex.com>, <474853D3.2119.498F3A29@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <47487FEC.22878.4A3B7AC5@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2007 at 19:27, dwight elvey wrote: > 75 is a lot of bands. I'd think that it would need to be a larger > disk. Still 45 for a 60 Hz would be 90. Are you sure your not > thinking of 33 1/3. That is a lot tougher or 78. > Dwight I'm certain--have a look: http://www.extremephono.com/free_turntable_strobe_disk.htm Note that the 50Hz disc is 45.11 RPM Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Sat Nov 24 22:14:45 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:14:45 -0800 Subject: Does anyone have an EagleCAD library with the TIL-311 hex display? References: <20071125031018.GA29437@usap.gov> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > I am starting a new project and was disappointed to find that the default > EagleCAD libraries don't have the TIL-311 hex display already entered (or > at least not that I can find). If anyone happens to have that part in a > library already, it would save me entering it in. I found an "HTIL311A" in "display-hp". Is that what you are looking for? Vince From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Nov 24 22:31:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 04:31:13 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4748B79C.5060602@arachelian.com> <20071125022441.GB28838@usap.gov> <4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20071125043113.GA30034@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 10:39:20PM -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>C64 BASIC is pretty bad. PET BASIC or better yet, C128 Basic were a lot > >>better. I suppose with the Simon's Basic cart, C64 BASIC was quite nice. > >> > > > >How is C-64 BASIC bad compared to PET BASIC? They are virtually > >identical. Do you mean because the PET lacks a SID chip and sprites > >and bitmapped graphics, the BASIC is "better"? > > > > > C64 BASIC is V2.0. There are no disk commands at all. You need to use > OPEN and LOAD ,8,1. There's no CATALOG command, etc. PET - at least > the 4032's I used, had BASIC 4.0. Ah... now I get you - my early experience was entirely on BASIC 1.0 and BASIC 2.0 machines. I didn't touch a BASIC 4.0 machine until years after I got a C-64 (when I could get them from surplus for $10-$15). Allow me to amend my statement that BASIC 2.0 on the PET and on the C-64 are virtually identical. With the exception of the destructive (to BASIC memory) load of the disk catalog (LOAD "$",8) and the fact that you couldn't query the error channel with DS$, etc., except by writing a program (INPUT #15,$A doesn't work on the command line), I didn't find that not having "DOS" commands in ROM was that bad. I suppose the argument could be made that it was what I was used to, but on other 8-bit micros of the time, you _did_ have CATALOG or DIR or something, and you _did_ see error messages from the disk without having to explicitly query the device, so I did have plenty of other examples of how it could be done. Of course, back in the BASIC 2.0 PET days, most folks who could afford to have disk drives (at $2200 for a C= 4040), also tended to load the old "DOS Wedge" program that added a series of disk commands preceded by either a ">" or "@". I had the DOS Wedge for the C-64 early on, but it came on a Commodore Macro Assembler diskette - not something anyone else I know had in 1982. > Note that I commented only on the > BASIC, not the SID, not the sprites, not the bitmapped graphics. > Obviously a machine with bitmapped graphics, sprites, color, and sounds > is going to be a lot more interesting. Fair enough. I just made a different assumption about what PET ROMs you were describing. > The C128 BASIC's, V7.0 I believe had commands for things like graphics > and sounds. The C64 did not, and you could only get at those features > by poking. Some things on the PET, you had to poke - sound for > instance, but at least the disk access stuff had built in commands. I did a lot of POKEing back in the PET days... > Worse yet, if you had to reset the machine > and then load a monitor, you would have lost the program you were trying > to crack. I didn't bother cracking programs much in those days. I used the monitor for software development. I extended my PET with three pushbuttons on the side, wired to the memory expansion port - NMI (which I hardly ever used), RESET (which I used a lot, learning ML) > > I used that monitor to write a ML Scott Adams > >Adventure runtime in high school (i.e. - it's good enough for programs > >larger than the cassette buffer, especially if you don't have a disk drive > >and a proper symbolic assembler). > > > It's perfectly suited for writing code, and a lot less trouble than a > full assembler. Well, I suppose that depends on the type of > programmer. If you want nice neat clean code with subroutines, you'll > want the full symbolic assembler, otherwise the monitor was more than > enough since you could tweak code on the fly and mess with it and see > the results instantly (or crash the machine.) :-) I agree that it depends... when I started, all I had was a copy of "The PET Paper" with the opcodes, and another rag of the era with some simple ML tips. I began coding in hex with TIM, the built-in monitor, _then_ upgraded to the 4K ROM-based SuperMON. Pointing back to the original topic, I would _not_ recommend teaching kids to code in hex as a first step, unless you handed them an unexpanded Cosmac Elf - then you have no choice. It can be a useful learning step, but I can't see how most kids would find it easy to understand, nor anything short of tedious. > I forget what the weird assembler was called, but it used the C64's > BASIC editor - I think it just disabled the tokenizer, so you still had > to write code with line numbers, and use the same editing features of > basic (List command, cursor up, down, etc..) but you could use it for > assembly, then I think you had either another program to run to assemble > and yet another to link or a command. Yep... that was the CBM Macro Assembler that I used from 1982 on... a tool suite that you loaded into memory to disable the tokenizer and load/save SEQ files, not PRG files, and a series of large and slow assembler and linker applications to produce binaries. I have a disk image of it with me, but I don't use it much anymore - these days, I use dasm or some other cross assembler, then test with VICE (by loading my UNIX-compiled 6502 programs via device '11', an emulated disk). > I personally found it insanely > slow to code that way, so the monitor was a godsend for me... When I did finally get my hands on a disk drive and the Macro Assembler, at age 16, my productivity *soared*. I'd been keeping paper notes of where subroutines went, and I no longer had to guess how large a subroutine would be before coding it (and having to manually relocate code full of fixed memory references). Perhaps I learned more than was obvious from the experience, but once I had a "real" assembler, I was able to write stuff that was far less tortuous and much easier to follow. I still have at easy recall most of the code I wrote 25 years ago. I think it's easy to see the difference. > >I think the PET is a great teaching machine for kids... > > Yeah, it depends on what the kid's trying to do. For assembly, a C64 > or a PET is perfectly fine. For hardware hacking there's a wide range of > stuff to do, and C64s are indeed more plentiful incase of mistakes, it's > easier to get replacement parts.. The User port on the 64's have nice > wide fingers, perfect for soldering a bunch of wires to interface to, > and the CIA's are pretty easy to do I/O on - much nicer than trying to > interface on a PC's parallel port, especially since it was bidirectional > and gave you full access to the machine. The User Port on all the C= machines is more-or-less the same... 12x2 0.154" edge connectors. There are minor variations (no 9VAC on the PET, IIRC), but you to get 8 bits of I/O plus handshaking plus CB2 sound (I _think_ the 6526 still allows you to make sound the same way as we did on the PET with a 6522, but nobody bothered). > For learning BASIC though, you're better off with a nicer one like in > the C128, or an expanded one for the C64. Certainly an easier time with working with diskettes. > Of course there are always emulators and such if a real machine can't be > found, but it's just not the same. :-) Of course - I use VICE all the time, but I still keep a stable full of real CBM hardware since emulation isn't always perfect, and there's just nothing to compare with running on the original box - you know it's not a trick of brute-force modern speed - it's real. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Nov-2007 at 04:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -33.2 F (-36.2 C) Windchill -33.2 F (-36.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 0.0 kts Grid 150 Barometer 678.9 mb (10670 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Nov 24 22:32:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 04:32:47 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an EagleCAD library with the TIL-311 hex display? In-Reply-To: References: <20071125031018.GA29437@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20071125043247.GB30034@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 08:14:45PM -0800, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > >I am starting a new project and was disappointed to find that the default > >EagleCAD libraries don't have the TIL-311 hex display already entered (or > >at least not that I can find).... > > I found an "HTIL311A" in "display-hp". Is that what you are looking > for? Thanks, Vince. I searched for "TIL" and "311", but that never came up. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Nov-2007 at 04:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -33.0 F (-36.1 C) Windchill -33.0 F (-36.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 0.0 kts Grid 150 Barometer 678.9 mb (10670 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 00:27:04 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:27:04 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <47487FEC.22878.4A3B7AC5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47470822.20436.447F9071@cclist.sydex.com>, <474853D3.2119.498F3A29@cclist.sydex.com>, <47487FEC.22878.4A3B7AC5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 24 Nov 2007 at 19:27, dwight elvey wrote: > >> 75 is a lot of bands. I'd think that it would need to be a larger >> disk. Still 45 for a 60 Hz would be 90. Are you sure your not >> thinking of 33 1/3. That is a lot tougher or 78. >> Dwight > > I'm certain--have a look: > > http://www.extremephono.com/free_turntable_strobe_disk.htm > > Note that the 50Hz disc is 45.11 RPM > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi I got my math wrong. The fellow is also wrong. 45/60 = .75. 100/.75 = 133.333.... If rounded to 133, you get 45.11278195---- Still, using Tony's multiple method, 400 dots would work fine. It would be a large disk but it would work. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 25 01:14:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:14:03 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <47470822.20436.447F9071@cclist.sydex.com>, <47487FEC.22878.4A3B7AC5@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4748B03B.24853.4AF82CCB@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2007 at 22:27, dwight elvey wrote: > I got my math wrong. The fellow is also wrong. > 45/60 = .75. > 100/.75 = 133.333.... > If rounded to 133, you get 45.11278195---- > Still, using Tony's multiple method, 400 dots > would work fine. It would be a large disk but > it would work. 45 rpm is 0.75 r/sec. The strobe lamp flashes 100 times per second (50Hz * 2). So, the disc completes 3 complete revolutions in 4 seconds. During those same 4 seconds, the lamp flashes 400 times. So there needs to be 400/3 bars on the disc if there is to be a bar exactly underneath the lamp for every flash, or 133.3333 bars, which causes the problem. If we increase the number of bars to 133 exactly, the disk will be turning at 100/133 = 0.75188 r/sc or about 45.1128 rpm. If we put 400 bars on the disk, the lamp will flash once for every third bar passing under it. Not the crisp display we were hoping for, however--and I don't know what the visual error would be without trying it. At least that's how I compute it. So maybe the guy is right. Cheers, Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Sun Nov 25 01:29:49 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:29:49 -0800 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options Message-ID: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> Esteemed listmembers; I am restoring a ca. 1985 IBM 5271---the so-called 3270 PC. I received it intact, with a full complement of cards, cables, etc. It looks very much like it was shut down, removed from its original office installation, and then apparently left somewhere the squirrels could get to it (thus, "restoring"). I've vacuumed about forty pounds of sunflower seed hulls out of it. Blessedly, I haven't found any other signs of animal inhabitation. Anyway, my irrational fear of contracting hantavirus aside, I am wondering if somebody could tell me about what I suspect is the host interface adapter. All card slots are occupied: 1 - Async Adapter 2 - 5271 Graphics Adapter APA option 3 - 5271 Graphics Adapter 4 - 64-256KB Memory expansion card 5 - 5160 ST412 controller 6 - 5160 floppy controller 7 - the card I need help identifying 8 - 5271 Keyboard Adapter As there is no 3270 coax card and no open slot to have once held one, I suspect that the 3270 host interface is the unknown card in slot 7. I own IBM SDLC and Bisync adapter cards, and this one doesn't look like either. Physical characteristics: * 8-bit, short card. * One DB25F on the bulkhead. * 9x Oki M37S64-20; apparently 64Kx1 memories. * 34 pin .100" header, vertically, at back end of card (J2) * one 4-pos DIP switch at top right. * Pretty much everything else on the card is 74LS-series TTL or passive. It's built like IBM made it, but I can't find any obvious IBM-style part number on it, unless it's 2683541. Google is silent on this number. (update: I just noticed 6320999 in the etch, but that hasn't gotten me any closer to an answer). Anybody have any guesses? What other host attachment options were available for the 5271, besides 3270 coax? Thanks! ok bear From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 03:35:23 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:35:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: second try ... it seems like Outlook Express settings are still not ok ... Hope this post is more readable! --- Hi all, Last week I hired a truck to pick up a "few" things ... - H960 rack with PDP-11/45 and a Cypher 100 tape drive ("not working" sticker attached to the Cypher) - H960 rack with PDP-11/55 with 28k fast memory (according to the post-it attached to it) - H960 rack with TU45 ("seems complete" says the post-it) - H960 rack with TU16 (capstan rooler is goo) - H960 rack with communications stuff (see below) - two RK07 disk drives - RM03 disk drive - RM03P disk pack with diagnostics - two DECprinter I - DECwriter II - cabinet with SYSTIME SYSTAPE II unit (capstan also goo) - a few boxes, one contains a complete RH11-AB - RT-11 V5.4 SRC micro fiche (#1 - #86) in two envelopes complete with the Bill of Material! - complete RT-11 V4 manual set in blue binders - complete RT-11 V5 manual set in orange binders - Bell & HOwell micro fiche reader in an attache suitcase Needless to say that my wife was not so glad when I got home :-) I took pictures while unloading, and they will be on my website, probably a good moment to do that are the Xmas holidays ... I plan to get rid of most of this, and use parts to get other units in my collection restored into working order. The 11/45 will go to Edward, the 11/55 is a great addition to my UNIBUS machines collection. Most of the stuff will probably be too heavy to ship ... I disassembled the BA-11F with the comm stuff. The complete power harnass is for whom it wants/needs. I can take pictures. The BA11 contained two DR11-B 4-slot backplanes, populated with M7219, M208 (2x) M7821, M796, M205, M^11 (2x) M112, M113, M239 and an M9680 DR11-B test connector board, power 'paddle' board, and connector board M9760 with two cables attached to it with on the other end one connector board (single height) M908? That single height connector board went into a small rack-mount unit with a 2-row backplane containing the folowing boards: M5950 (8x), M3020 (3x), M205 (5x), M111, M112, M306, M611 and one onit has M113 (3x) and the other unit has M113 (1x) and M1131 (2x). One unit was marked "RX", the other was marked "TX". On the side of the backplane is a label with this text: DIGITAL CSS P/N 2M-C121A S/N NU00001 DX40AB. The other unit has the same lable, but S/N is NU00002! Each unit has its own power supply, H716A. I elaborated a bit more about the comm stuff, because I really don't have a use for it, unless dismantling it. So, if somebody wants this (DR11-B or DX40 or everything), let me know. I have no idea what the things weigh, so neither do I know what the shipping costs would be. Free pick up in The Netherlands :-)allthough recovering some money from hiring the truck would be nice. I am also looking for two buttons of the TU45. They are damaged. It's the lower two on the control panel, "FILE PROT" and "1600BPI". thanks,Henk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 25 04:47:37 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:47:37 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an EagleCAD library with the TIL-311 hex display? In-Reply-To: <20071125043247.GB30034@usap.gov> References: <20071125031018.GA29437@usap.gov> <20071125043247.GB30034@usap.gov> Message-ID: <474952C9.2050805@philpem.me.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Thanks, Vince. I searched for "TIL" and "311", but that never came up. Normally, EAGLE's search engine doesn't do substring searches. Put an asterisk (*) on either side of the search string when you enter it into the library manager and it'll search for parts with a name/description containing the search string. e.g.: TIL311 finds parts called "TIL311" or with "TIL311" in the description *TIL311* finds parts called "TIL311"; e.g. "HTIL311A", "HPATIL311ABC"... TIL311? (can't remember if this is right -- try it) finds parts called "TIL311" with a single letter/number as a suffix. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 25 05:44:14 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 06:44:14 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <01C82F2E.B39D7120@mandr71> ---------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:02:54 -0800 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: FD400 drive troubleshooting >> From: dm561 at torfree.net > ------------Original Messages: >>> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:17:31 -0800 (PST) >>> From: Fred Cisin >>> Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting >>> >>>>Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a >>>>flickering fluorescent light. >>> >>> Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM >>> strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. >>> >>> FWIW, >> >> Hi >> I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM >> can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. >> Dwight >> >> ----------Reply: >> Well, unless you're just saying that a 60Hz 360RPM strobe disk (if you had one) >> would also sync at 300RPM under a 50Hz light, I don't see what's backward. >Hi > That is what I said. The disk with 20 bands would work for both >a 360 RPM and 60Hz light or a 300 RPM and 50 Hz light. -------- Gee, I thought that was what *I* said (and you claimed was backward). Let's see; I said that 300RPM @ 50Hz = 360RPM @ 60Hz, and you said that's backward - 360RPM @ 60Hz = 300RPM @ 50Hz. Sounds like the same thing to me (and Tony) except that a 360RPM strobe disk is a lot harder to find than a 300RPM. Sheesh... --------- > Tony mentioned that one could increase the number of bands for the >problem of the 50Hz with a 360 RPM drive. It makes sense. -------- Indeed; glad to hear it. ------- > Tony mentioned that most 8 inch drives were speed controlled by >the mains and as long as the belt was in good shape, using a strobe >wasn't much needed. ----- You really should read more carefully; he didn't say "most," he said "all of mine," referring to his particular collection. In fact, many 8" drives were 24VDC powered, including the Pertec FD400 which prompted me to send (and regret) the original post that started this bizarre exchange... m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 25 05:44:57 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 06:44:57 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <01C82F2E.B5271E60@mandr71> ---------Original Message: Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:27:04 -0800 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: FD400 drive troubleshooting > http://www.extremephono.com/free_turntable_strobe_disk.htm > > Note that the 50Hz disc is 45.11 RPM > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi I got my math wrong. The fellow is also wrong. 45/60 = .75. 100/.75 = 133.333.... If rounded to 133, you get 45.11278195---- Still, using Tony's multiple method, 400 dots would work fine. It would be a large disk but it would work. Dwight -----------Reply: If you're saying that he's wrong, that it's not 45.11 but should be 45.11278195 then I can see why you & I are arguing over whether 300/50 = 360/60 or 360/60 = 300/50... BTW, you're wrong; it's 45.1127819548872180451127819548872 ;-) m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 25 07:44:31 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:44:31 -0500 Subject: Programming skills (was: Teaching kids about computers...) Message-ID: <01C82F3F.68C141C0@mandr71> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:54:44 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers... >> Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it better; in my opinion taking >> advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you more >> professional, not less. >I would agree, but... >1) Being able ot use the tools, however proficiently, does not >necessarily equate with being able to design/make those tools. -------- Why do my recent posts seem to generate such odd responses... Or is it just me? Why the "but"? Did I imply anything of the sort? Did I say that a carpenter should know how to make an electric saw or even repair it when it would be a more efficient use of his time and skills to just take it to a shop or buy a new one? ------ >I haev never used dBase (or any other database for that matter), so I can't >comment on that, but I will claim that being able to use _some_ >application programs does not make you a programmer. -------- A claim that seems pretty obvious; why make it? Although some people apparently disagree, dBase is not an application program; it's very similar to BASIC (and grew and matured just like BASIC did) but with fairly extensive file-handling and screen-handling capabilities. -------- >2) The initial question was about education. Education is not production. -------- Of course not! That may have been the initial question but by the time of my reply it had moved to opinions about what defines a "programming professional," specifically whether someone who codes in dBase or doesn't know or care about how disk drives work can call him/herself one. -------- >When you're prodcuing something, of course you use all the applicable >tools. When you're leaning about things, you have to do things 'by hand' >to understand them (and example of this, from another context, is that >photography couses used to insist that the students used cameras with >manaul focuessing and exposure cotnrol, so they could learn what said >adjustments meant, even though if you were being paid to take photographs >you would _probably_ welcome some automation). >In fact I will go further and say that the true professionals not only use the right >tools, but also fully understnad how those tools work and behave, because that >way they can use them more effectvely. ----------- I kind of thought that being "proficient," i.e. "having an advanced degree of competence" in their use of tools expressed the same sentiment. Of course as a professional you should know what those camera adjustments mean and do, but you don't necessarily have to know *how* they work unless you're interested or plan to go into camera design or repair, or expect to have to repair it in the middle of nowhere; "how they behave" is not at all the same as "how they work." And although you may know all the arcane details of your camera and probably look down on someone who only points-and-shoots, he or she may well take better pictures than you, which is after all the whole point of having a camera (for most people anyway ;-) ----- >> A programming professional's job is to deliver a product that meets the client's >> needs, is well documented and easily maintained, and is delivered on time and >> within budget. Knowing or caring about the arcane details of a disk drive or being >> able to program an OS-less computer in binary may matter if you're working on >> an embedded controller but it's pretty irrelevant if the project is a client accounting >> system for a large financial institution. ---------- >Tuew, but a 'client system for a large finanicail instution' is hardly >the only type ofr computer application. --------- Again, I thought that was obvious and that my mentioning embedded controllers would suggest that even I knew that and don't need you to point it out... My point was that there's more to being a programming professional than being able to code in binary; furthermore, different tasks require different tools and skills and different people have different interests and abilities, and I find the tendency for some people here to denigrate others with different goals, interests, abilities and tastes annoying enough on occasion to comment. m From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Nov 25 08:40:48 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:40:48 -0500 Subject: Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20071125093356.03328d50@mail.degnanco.net> New York Weekly Messenger 2-13-1833 Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 On the back page of this newspaper is an article that describes in some detail the eye-witness account of a *working* machine: "...the greater part of the calculating machine is already constructed....I have had the advantage of seeing it actually calculate, and of studying its construction with Mr. Babbage himself..." Does this account describe a working computer? To help make this determination I would want to learn more about the error checking capability of this machine, which I assume was used for calculation of significant digits. A described, Babbage's calculating machine could be described as "computer-like" at least. I believe that this article reports the closest Babbage got to a actual working computer. Or just an elaborate calculator. There are no references in the article to what we today would identify as punch cards or programming. Download the PDF http://www.vintagecomputer.net/babbage/charles_babbage_2-13-1833.pdf ...and read for yourself. The article describes error checking and how results are viewed and how log tables could be calculated accurately, for use in astronomy. The article noted that regarding the printer "..less progress was made...". In the 1830's news from Europe would take a few weeks to reach New York, as boat was the only cross-Atlantic communications. Most articles in the paper refer to end of December 1832 events, including the account of the Calculating Machine. Overall there was a lack of contemporary articles about Babbage's calculating machine in 1832-35. I was able to find just the one often quoted article by D Lardner: "Babbage's Calculating Engines" from the Edinburgh Review 59 (1834) pg 263-327. The New York Weekly Messenger article above was printed a year prior, making it among the first known articles about Babbage's calculating machine. The apparent lack favorable press and the loss of funding in 1834 obscured the fact that the machine had a working visual "display" and was probably more complete than people realize. Was the calculating machine programmable? Maybe. Most writings about the Babbage projects were published a generation after the project was cancelled and I don't think that it's possible to discount the notion entirely. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 25 09:44:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:44:13 -0700 Subject: Programming skills (was: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <01C82F3F.68C141C0@mandr71> References: <01C82F3F.68C141C0@mandr71> Message-ID: <4749984D.2050102@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > Why the "but"? Did I imply anything of the sort? Did I say that a > carpenter should know how to make an electric saw or even repair > it when it would be a more efficient use of his time and skills to just > take it to a shop or buy a new one? > ------ But it does help if knows how to change the blade. :) Same with hardware/software -- know your tools. From evan at snarc.net Sun Nov 25 09:50:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:50:00 -0500 Subject: Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 Message-ID: <200711251551.lAPFowsV073251@billy.ezwind.net> I'll send you a private message with contact info for Doron Swade. He will know the answers to your questions. -----Original Message----- From: "B. Degnan" Subj: Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:44 am Size: 2K To: cctalk at classiccmp.org New York Weekly Messenger 2-13-1833 Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 On the back page of this newspaper is an article that describes in some detail the eye-witness account of a *working* machine: "...the greater part of the calculating machine is already constructed....I have had the advantage of seeing it actually calculate, and of studying its construction with Mr. Babbage himself..." Does this account describe a working computer? To help make this determination I would want to learn more about the error checking capability of this machine, which I assume was used for calculation of significant digits. A described, Babbage's calculating machine could be described as "computer-like" at least. I believe that this article reports the closest Babbage got to a actual working computer. Or just an elaborate calculator. There are no references in the article to what we today would identify as punch cards or programming. Download the PDF http://www.vintagecomputer.net/babbage/charles_babbage_2-13-1833.pdf ...and read for yourself. The article describes error checking and how results are viewed and how log tables could be calculated accurately, for use in astronomy. The article noted that regarding the printer "..less progress was made...". In the 1830's news from Europe would take a few weeks to reach New York, as boat was the only cross-Atlantic communications. Most articles in the paper refer to end of December 1832 events, including the account of the Calculating Machine. Overall there was a lack of contemporary articles about Babbage's calculating machine in 1832-35. I was able to find just the one often quoted article by D Lardner: "Babbage's Calculating Engines" from the Edinburgh Review 59 (1834) pg 263-327. The New York Weekly Messenger article above was printed a year prior, making it among the first known articles about Babbage's calculating machine. The apparent lack favorable press and the loss of funding in 1834 obscured the fact that the machine had a working visual "display" and was probably more complete than people realize. Was the calculating machine programmable? Maybe. Most writings about the Babbage projects were published a generation after the project was cancelled and I don't think that it's possible to discount the notion entirely. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Nov 25 10:04:54 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:04:54 -0600 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> References: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <47499D26.9080909@brutman.com> r.stricklin wrote: > Esteemed listmembers; > > I am restoring a ca. 1985 IBM 5271---the so-called 3270 PC. I received > it intact, with a full complement of cards, cables, etc. It looks very > much like it was shut down, removed from its original office > installation, and then apparently left somewhere the squirrels could get > to it (thus, "restoring"). I've vacuumed about forty pounds of sunflower > seed hulls out of it. Blessedly, I haven't found any other signs of > animal inhabitation. > > Anyway, my irrational fear of contracting hantavirus aside, I am > wondering if somebody could tell me about what I suspect is the host > interface adapter. All card slots are occupied: > > 1 - Async Adapter > 2 - 5271 Graphics Adapter APA option > 3 - 5271 Graphics Adapter > 4 - 64-256KB Memory expansion card > 5 - 5160 ST412 controller > 6 - 5160 floppy controller > 7 - the card I need help identifying > 8 - 5271 Keyboard Adapter > > As there is no 3270 coax card and no open slot to have once held one, I > suspect that the 3270 host interface is the unknown card in slot 7. I > own IBM SDLC and Bisync adapter cards, and this one doesn't look like > either. > > Physical characteristics: > > * 8-bit, short card. > * One DB25F on the bulkhead. > * 9x Oki M37S64-20; apparently 64Kx1 memories. > * 34 pin .100" header, vertically, at back end of card (J2) > * one 4-pos DIP switch at top right. > * Pretty much everything else on the card is 74LS-series TTL or passive. > > It's built like IBM made it, but I can't find any obvious IBM-style part > number on it, unless it's 2683541. Google is silent on this number. > (update: I just noticed 6320999 in the etch, but that hasn't gotten me > any closer to an answer). > > Anybody have any guesses? What other host attachment options were > available for the 5271, besides 3270 coax? > > Thanks! > > ok > bear > > I'm digging in my secret archives. I have just one clue so far - somebody called it a 'printer/memory' card. Based on your description of it and this clue, I doubt that it is the comm card for the machine. Mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 11:30:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:30:22 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <01C82F2E.B39D7120@mandr71> References: <01C82F2E.B39D7120@mandr71> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 06:44:14 -0500 > Subject: RE: FD400 drive troubleshooting > > ---------------Original Message: > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:02:54 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: RE: FD400 drive troubleshooting > >>> From: dm561 at torfree.net >> ------------Original Messages: >>>> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:17:31 -0800 (PST) >>>> From: Fred Cisin >>>> Subject: Re: FD400 drive troubleshooting >>>> >>>>>Many/most drives have 50Hz/60Hz zebra discs on the flywheel, for using a >>>>>flickering fluorescent light. >>>> >>>> Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM >>>> strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. >>>> >>>> FWIW, >>> >>> Hi >>> I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM >>> can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. >>> Dwight >>> >>> ----------Reply: >>> Well, unless you're just saying that a 60Hz 360RPM strobe disk (if you had one) >>> would also sync at 300RPM under a 50Hz light, I don't see what's backward. > >>Hi >> That is what I said. The disk with 20 bands would work for both >>a 360 RPM and 60Hz light or a 300 RPM and 50 Hz light. > -------- > Gee, I thought that was what *I* said (and you claimed was backward). > > Let's see; I said that 300RPM @ 50Hz = 360RPM @ 60Hz, and you > said that's backward - 360RPM @ 60Hz = 300RPM @ 50Hz. > Sounds like the same thing to me (and Tony) except that a 360RPM > strobe disk is a lot harder to find than a 300RPM. > > Sheesh... > --------- Hi I guess my problem was reading your sentence. It just isn't clear to me where you are saying they are equal and where they are not. The part "60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM" seems to be saying that "300RPM @ 60Hz = 360RPM @ 50Hz". I'm sure I'm reading it wrong but it is still confusing. At least we both agree on the basics and that is all that counts. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 11:50:37 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:50:37 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 24 Nov 2007 at 22:27, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I got my math wrong. The fellow is also wrong. >> 45/60 = .75. >> 100/.75 = 133.333.... >> If rounded to 133, you get 45.11278195---- >> Still, using Tony's multiple method, 400 dots >> would work fine. It would be a large disk but >> it would work. > > 45 rpm is 0.75 r/sec. The strobe lamp flashes 100 times per second > (50Hz * 2). So, the disc completes 3 complete revolutions in 4 > seconds. During those same 4 seconds, the lamp flashes 400 times. > > So there needs to be 400/3 bars on the disc if there is to be a bar > exactly underneath the lamp for every flash, or 133.3333 bars, which > causes the problem. If we increase the number of bars to 133 > exactly, the disk will be turning at 100/133 = 0.75188 r/sc or about > 45.1128 rpm. > > If we put 400 bars on the disk, the lamp will flash once for every > third bar passing under it. Not the crisp display we were hoping > for, however--and I don't know what the visual error would be without > trying it. > > At least that's how I compute it. So maybe the guy is right. > Hi Chuck I was thinking about Tony's idea of the multiple and it occurred to me that there was an issue. We've been thinking of the flashes as instantaneous strobes while they have duration. This would, as you state, cause a loss of contrast. This would tend to overlap the dots and white space of adjacent dots. This would indicate that a continuous 400 dots would most likely work poorly. Still, the spiral method should work fine, with just as much contrast as the single row method. One could use the original size dots and spacing. So, I feel that the fellow was incorrect that such a strobe disk could not be made for exact 45 RPM. Now, looking at the 78 RPM problem, the task seems more difficult, for both 60Hz and worst for the 50Hz. Still, three or four spirals with the correct spacing would be enough, even if it didn't come out to a nice integer. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 11:59:52 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:59:52 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <01C82F2E.B5271E60@mandr71> References: <01C82F2E.B5271E60@mandr71> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > > ---------Original Message: > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:27:04 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: RE: FD400 drive troubleshooting >> http://www.extremephono.com/free_turntable_strobe_disk.htm >> >> Note that the 50Hz disc is 45.11 RPM >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> > > Hi > I got my math wrong. The fellow is also wrong. > 45/60 = .75. > 100/.75 = 133.333.... > If rounded to 133, you get 45.11278195---- > Still, using Tony's multiple method, 400 dots > would work fine. It would be a large disk but > it would work. > Dwight > -----------Reply: > If you're saying that he's wrong, that it's not 45.11 but should be > 45.11278195 then I can see why you & I are arguing over whether > 300/50 = 360/60 or 360/60 = 300/50... > > BTW, you're wrong; it's 45.1127819548872180451127819548872 > > ;-) > > m > Hi My calculator didn't show any more digits but your results show that the sequence repeats at 112781954887218045. If I could type underline, one could underline that part and type ... This would indicate a repeating sequence and be even more exactly correct ;) Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 25 12:11:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:11:29 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47494A51.9371.4D52141A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2007 at 9:50, dwight elvey wrote: > I was thinking about Tony's idea of the multiple and it occurred > to me that there was an issue. We've been thinking of the > flashes as instantaneous strobes while they have duration. Dwight, I think it's worse than that. There's also the idea of "persistance of vision" that gets in the way and also makes the strobe disc work--our eyes do not have instantaneous response and the only reason a strobe disc really works is because a fixed pattern is drilled into our optic nerves many times per second. Were this not the case, one could have a 45 RPM strobe disc, not with 400 bars, but with, say 4 or 50--but our eyes would likely not register these as a single continuous event. Of course I haven't tried this yet and I really should. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 25 12:27:50 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:27:50 -0800 Subject: Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20071125093356.03328d50@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <4749BEA5.16F608FE@cs.ubc.ca> "B. Degnan" wrote: > > New York Weekly Messenger 2-13-1833 > Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 > On the back page of this newspaper is an article that describes in some > detail the eye-witness account of a *working* machine: "...the greater part > of the calculating machine is already constructed....I have had the > advantage of seeing it actually calculate, and of studying its construction > with Mr. Babbage himself..." > > Does this account describe a working computer? To help make this > determination I would want to learn more about the error checking > capability of this machine, which I assume was used for calculation of > significant digits. A described, Babbage's calculating machine could be > described as "computer-like" at least. I believe that this article reports > the closest Babbage got to a actual working computer. Or just an elaborate > calculator. There are no references in the article to what we today would > identify as punch cards or programming. > Download the PDF > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/babbage/charles_babbage_2-13-1833.pdf > ...and read for yourself. The article describes error checking and how > results are viewed and how log tables could be calculated accurately, for > use in astronomy. The article noted that regarding the printer "..less > progress was made...". I haven't had time to read the article, but given the year and application (log tables) it sounds like what the reporter saw was Babbage's difference engine rather than analytical engine. The d-e was a calculator of a form and was completed (or largely so), but it was not programmable. The a-e was Babbage's uncompleted machine that looks more computer-like in modern terms. The a-e (was going to) use punch cards, the d-e did not. A little googling should bring up a lot more info to elaborate between the two. > In the 1830's news from Europe would take a few weeks to reach New York, as > boat was the only cross-Atlantic communications. Most articles in the paper > refer to end of December 1832 events, including the account of the > Calculating Machine. > > Overall there was a lack of contemporary articles about Babbage's > calculating machine in 1832-35. I was able to find just the one often > quoted article by D Lardner: "Babbage's Calculating Engines" from > the Edinburgh Review 59 (1834) pg 263-327. The New York Weekly Messenger > article above was printed a year prior, making it among the first known > articles about Babbage's calculating machine. The apparent lack favorable > press and the loss of funding in 1834 obscured the fact that the machine > had a working visual "display" and was probably more complete than people > realize. Was the calculating machine programmable? Maybe. Most writings > about the Babbage projects were published a generation after the project > was cancelled and I don't think that it's possible to discount the notion > entirely. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 12:30:29 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:30:29 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:11:29 -0800 > Subject: RE: FD400 drive troubleshooting > > On 25 Nov 2007 at 9:50, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I was thinking about Tony's idea of the multiple and it occurred >> to me that there was an issue. We've been thinking of the >> flashes as instantaneous strobes while they have duration. > > Dwight, I think it's worse than that. There's also the idea of > "persistance of vision" that gets in the way and also makes the > strobe disc work--our eyes do not have instantaneous response and the > only reason a strobe disc really works is because a fixed pattern is > drilled into our optic nerves many times per second. Were this not > the case, one could have a 45 RPM strobe disc, not with 400 bars, but > with, say 4 or 50--but our eyes would likely not register these as a > single continuous event. > > Of course I haven't tried this yet and I really should. > Hi That is why I think the spiral with bars would work the best. Persistance from adjacent bars would only be a small issue at the tops and bottoms of the bars. The eye would tend to follow the spiral. Such spirals could be made for any RPM. In the case of disk drives, one could make three different spirals. Each for a percentage below and a percentage above the exact one. This way, one could quickly see if the speed were within a specific tolerance. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 12:54:47 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:54:47 +0000 Subject: Old Supermac video card with a different video connection In-Reply-To: <2216A7A4-8542-4364-AFCA-032B853860CD@neurotica.com> References: <200711211512.lALFCA01053617@billy.ezwind.net> <004501c82c53$1d291b00$42aab941@game> <2216A7A4-8542-4364-AFCA-032B853860CD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <575131af0711251054u5bfb18ceseaab900d99b0513d@mail.gmail.com> On 21/11/2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 21, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Hopefully by saturday I will get a new batch of Apple mac Nubus > > video cards > > in. One of them should be a Supermac Thunder II GX 1600. The card > > has a > > video out that looks like the old SUN type ( 10 small pins and 3 large > > ones), anybody know if it is compatible with a SUN to VGA adapter? > > The connector is called "DB13W3". I doubt it'll work with a Sun- > >VGA adapter. I recently got given a decent 21" colour monitor with a DB13W3 connector on it. Never used one of these before. In the same pile of stuff was a Mac video connector to DB13 cable. I've tried this on an old Beige G3, and also via an SVGA-Mac convertor on a PC. It gives a good sharp picture, but on both systems, red and green were reversed. Does this mean my cable's incorrectly wired up or doesn't belong to this monitor, or is that something to do with using a DB13 monitor on a modern PC? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 13:16:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:16:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <01C82E21.F8184E00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <62020.42757.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> > The same applies to the original topic: among the > many replies suggesting how > a child *should* learn about computers, I didn't see > many suggestions that the > child him/herself might be the best judge and > perhaps the best approach might > be to explore what his/her interests are (instead of > what yours were), and provide > whatever resources are appropriate and relevant to > those interests. It just stands to reason that dad, being himself interested in this stuff, might want to introduce his child to what interests him. This doesn't mean he's being forced to persue or like something. Being that his son expressed some interest in how the things tick, he asked for advice on the best way for him to get his feet wet and maybe provide a springboard for further investigation. It goes w/o saying the child might lose interest at some point. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 14:06:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <936952.28476.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I built plenty of add-on devices for the User Port > and the joystick > > ports when I was a teenager (I got my hands on my > first C-64 when I was > > 15, and by 16, I owned one). How deep do you mean > here? It's a little > > tougher to find a cartridge-port proto board than > it used to be, so > > building your own SCSI or IDE or Ethernet > interface from scratch > > might be somewhat advanced, but hanging LEDs or > switches off of one > > of the other ports is easy enough, and easy enough > to control from > > BASIC. The C64 is, probably inarguably, the best (i.e documented) computer for interfacing to (in the US anyway). This has a lot to do with it's price and the 30E6 units produced. But regardless it's unparalleled in that aspect. What I meant by "deep hardware details" was aspects of the chips themselves. You could learn anything you wanted possibly about standard TTL and even the generic stuff that most 8-bitters and peecees consisted of. Or at least it was far easier to (info more readily available). > C64 BASIC is V2.0. There are no disk commands at > all. You need to use > OPEN and LOAD ,8,1. There's no CATALOG command, > etc. PET - at least > the 4032's I used, had BASIC 4.0. Note that I > commented only on the > BASIC, not the SID, not the sprites, not the > bitmapped graphics. > Obviously a machine with bitmapped graphics, > sprites, color, and sounds > is going to be a lot more interesting. > The C128 BASIC's, V7.0 I believe had commands for > things like graphics > and sounds. The C64 did not, and you could only get > at those features > by poking. Some things on the PET, you had to poke > - sound for > instance, but at least the disk access stuff had > built in commands. If you have experience coding, a "better" BASIC would of course be better. But if you're learning, the peeks and pokes should help facilitate that. I know next to nothing about the C128. I know that 1 of it's 3 modes was essentially a C64. So the other modes didn't build on that (there were no hardware sprites in the C128 modes?). 1 of the 3 was intended for use by cpm, no? > >> Then again, if you can master the peeks and > pokes, you're better off > >> writing 6502 code. I'm really partial to the > C128 which had a built in > >> machine language monitor. You always had the option of coding the "front end" in BASIC, and speeding up the parts that needed it with a ml portion. As tedious and goofy as that could have been with pokes and data statement. O come on, that stuff was joy unparalleled! > Well, don't confuse BASIC with the monitor. :-) > Not having to load the > Monitor from tape made the C128 very useful as > previously mentioned for > cracking C64 software. You can't quite load a > monitor into memory and > not wipe a chunk of memory. Worse yet, if you had > to reset the machine > and then load a monitor, you would have lost the > program you were trying > to crack. I did have a monitor on cartridge. It must have been Commodores I'm thinking. A place I used to work had a whole file cabinet full of C64 software...and the tools to crack them. I think they got them off a BBS somewhere. The story was the s/w companies would hire the crackers to write the schemes and promise to not release them for a specified amount of time. > > The ML monitor on PETs was nice to have - better > IMO than a blue "READY" > > screen - but anyone who was serious about it gave > up one of their two or > > three precious expansion ROM sockets for a better > monitor. Didn't JiffyDOS come with a monitor? I never installed that but did make ample use of my OOMPHA copied Warpspeed cartridge. Those guys were the worst... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Nov 25 14:17:32 2007 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:17:32 -0700 Subject: trs80 items wanted References: <110920070622.29396.4733FC9C00015783000072D422216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <004b01c82fa0$e8c9c7f0$8aa5de48@SONYDIGITALED> yes i loose messages all the time too. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 11:22 PM Subject: Re: trs80 items wanted > > > -------------- Original message from "Jay West" > : -------------- > > >> At VCFX I was able to get the last major component for my TRS80 setup >> (already have the monitor, drives, and expansion interface). I got the >> keyboard unit for $20. >> >> Looks like all I'm missing is a real tandy power supply for the Model 1 >> (yes, I know I can rig something up, but I'm looking for the real mccoy), >> and the buffered cable between keyboard and expansion interface. >> >> Anyone have one of those two items and is willing to trade? >> >> Jay West >> >> > > Jay, > > I offered you these last month ??? keyboard, PS . you would just have to > take > the whole expansion unit. not just the cable. > never heard back ??? > > - jerry > > From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 25 14:32:10 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:32:10 -0500 Subject: Programming skills (was: Teaching kids about computers...) Message-ID: <01C82F78.7ED490A0@mandr71> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:44:13 -0700 From: woodelf Subject: Re: Programming skills (was: Teaching kids about computers...) M H Stein wrote: >> Why the "but"? Did I imply anything of the sort? Did I say that a >> carpenter should know how to make an electric saw or even repair >> it when it would be a more efficient use of his time and skills to just >> take it to a shop or buy a new one? >> ------ >But it does help if knows how to change the blade. :) >Same with hardware/software -- know your tools. I thought "being proficient in the use of the appropriate tools" kind of implied that... But thanks for making it clear! m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 25 14:32:48 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:32:48 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <01C82F78.7FC8B4A0@mandr71> ------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:59:52 -0800 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: FD400 drive troubleshooting > BTW, you're wrong; it's 45.1127819548872180451127819548872 > ;-) > m > Hi My calculator didn't show any more digits but your results show that the sequence repeats at 112781954887218045. If I could type underline, one could underline that part and type ... This would indicate a repeating sequence and be even more exactly correct ;) Dwight -----------Reply: You're absolutely right! Uncle! m From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Nov 25 14:40:53 2007 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:40:53 -0700 Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? References: Message-ID: <007401c82fa3$7938cf00$8aa5de48@SONYDIGITALED> actually the stuff that was sent to Taiwan in the 70's and early 80's was the pile you really wanted to go though...... ah.... the things I saw the whores punch into the containers.... When gold got high (and silver went way up thanks to the hunt brothers) so much hit the skids... Scrap dealers seem to be historically uneducated and would scrap anything that even smelled remotely with the gold and silver content. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:31 PM Subject: Vintage computer bounty: go east, young man? > > I was reading this article: > > http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=2007-11-18_D8T08P0O0&show_article=1 > > ...and was wondering how many vintage machines one could find if they > traipsed around China for a summer and visited all the various e-waste > processing gulags that (litterally) litter the country. > > There is literally billions of pounds of e-waste entering China every > year. If even a fraction of a fraction of that is old systems that are > worth collecting and a fraction of that is still in some sort of complete > and unwrecked condition, there is a vintage computer bounty waiting to be > plundered by a brave privateer. > > The trick is getting it back to your place of origin ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 25 14:33:13 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:33:13 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <01C82F78.80F54DC0@mandr71> ---------Original Messages: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 06:44:14 -0500 > Subject: RE: FD400 drive troubleshooting >>>> Which just happens to be the ratio of 300RPM vs 360RPM, so that on a 300RPM >>>> strobe disk w/a 60Hz light the 60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM. >> Hi >> I think you have the ratio backward. The 60 Hz disk for 360 RPM >> can be used for the 50 Hz 300 RPM. >> Dwight Hi I guess my problem was reading your sentence. It just isn't clear to me where you are saying they are equal and where they are not. The part "60Hz bars = 300RPM and the 50Hz bars = 360RPM" seems to be saying that "300RPM @ 60Hz = 360RPM @ 50Hz". I'm sure I'm reading it wrong but it is still confusing. At least we both agree on the basics and that is all that counts. Dwight --------Reply: Well, I did say "the 60 and 50Hz *BARS*" (as in "stripe" or "band") at the same frequency of illumination (60Hz), but perhaps I should have inserted "the speed at which the bars seem to stop" instead of trying to keep it short and simple (with exactly the opposite effect). OK, how about this: It just so happens that the ratio of 360RPM to 300RPM is the same as 60Hz to 50Hz. Therefore, if you have a strobe disk for a 300RPM drive with both 50Hz and 60Hz bars on it and a 60Hz source of illumination, then you can use the same disk to check the speed of a 360RPM drive, since at 360RPM the 50Hz bars will appear to be stationary. I'm talking about using a 300RPM disk at 60Hz (for the OP and others trying to check the speed of a 360RPM FD400 or equivalent with 60Hz); you seem to be talking about using a 360RPM strobe disk (if you found one) at 50Hz, a somewhat different situation albeit one taking advantage of the same "coincidence". But I think by now both our points have been made abundantly and painfully clear, and I'm glad that we can finally put it to rest and not clutter up the archives further. m From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 23 08:25:35 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:25:35 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRY00J15QQB0XV1@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:02:14 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >>>>>> Wasn't the PS/2 30 an 8086? (can't remember for sure) >>>>> Initially. A later version used the 286. The model 25 was, as far >>>>> as I'm aware, always an 8086. >>>> The model25 was 8088 powered and I think a few others of that series. >>> Definitely not. 8086 or better. None ran an 8088. >> >> The one I have has an 8088, model 8530-002. Well actually I pulled >> the board out to use the case for an SB180 with Adaptec SCSI/MFM >> adpator, a Miniscribe 20mb disk plus reusing the 3,5" disk and >> power. Made a nice case for that. Been stripping the PCs board >> since. > >I've never owned a -002, but I have a -021 in the pile somewhere that >definitely has an 8086. The IBM Internal sales spec sheet I have here >shows the -002 having an 8MHz 8086. > >> Must of had a strange one. ;) > >If it was an 8088, you did indeed. 8-) No question on that. One of the few parts not stripped, have way to many of them and they are mostly useless to me. The 8087 however I did save. Allison >Peace... Sridhar From jrr at flippers.com Fri Nov 23 11:50:24 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:50:24 -0800 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <01C77210.ED942260@MSE_D03> References: <01C77210.ED942260@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <474712E0.6050707@flippers.com> A simple reader for 2708's can be made with a 24 pin wirewrap socket with legs that are at least 1 inch long. Bend out the -5 and +12 legs and hook them up to small batteries (no real current draw) and then simply read the device as a 2716 in ANY Eprom burner. Works for me! You can replace 2708's with 2716s by simply bending (on the 2716) the two pins that engage the -5 and +12 and jumpering them to pin 12 (ground) - use the Eprom burner to copy the data from whichever half the data is found in (most likely 0 - 3FFh)... I recommend that you program the data in both halfs of the 2716 (0 - 3FFh and 400 - 4FFh) for redundancy. John :-#)# M H Stein wrote: > -----------------Original Message: > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:48:55 +1000 > From: Doug Jackson > Subject: Re: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs > > John S wrote: > > >>> As 2708s are obsolete few moern programmers support them, apart from a few >>> that cost many $100s. So I thought why not try and build one? I've found >>> references to the following classic magazines, and I would be willing to pay >>> a small fee for photocopies or scans of the articles: >>> >>> Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read only >>> memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to set data and >>> address. The software to drive the programmer is written in BASIC. >>> Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) >>> Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) >>> >> >> > > I have a programmer designed by Steve Ciarcia from BYTE - It uses an > 8051AH-Basic (The 8051 with basic embedded) as the controller - and > still works a treat - to this day. - Standalone board, interface via > serial. It was fun to see peoples faces when you shipped a ^C down the > serial line, and dropped through to a READY prompt. > > I can find the doco for yo, but it is a high end solution to a simple > problem. > > Alternately, I'm more than happy to read an eprom for you, and email > contents - I'm in Oz though. Perhaps there is somebody in the US who > could do the same. > > Doug > > -----------------Reply: > > I have one of those as well; alas, it does NOT do 2708's. > > To the OP: > > I can scan the KB article for you, but the 2708 programmer is > intended to work with a Motorola MEK6800-D2, and consists of > nothing more than 3 transistors to switch the 27V (and a couple > of switches and a socket for the EPROM). It's all done in software. > > mike > > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 23 17:36:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:36:32 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JRZ006ZZG8EKVV5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: Chris M > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:49:01 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >--- Allison wrote: > >> The one I have has an 8088, model 8530-002. Well >> actually I pulled >> the board out to use the case for an SB180 with >> Adaptec SCSI/MFM >> adpator, a Miniscribe 20mb disk plus reusing the >> 3,5" disk and >> power. Made a nice case for that. Been stripping >> the PCs board >> since. > > For one those are not vanilla floppy drives, unless >I'm seriously mistaken. If that thing has an 8088, I >want a picture. We all make mistakes, I'm not trying >to harangue, but I've never heard of any PC/2 sporting >an 8088. > Are you sure it's a PC/2 (you know what I mean - PS/2)? Yes it is. If you want a picture send a camera, no digital picturs possible, USB camera not an option OS is NT4. Allison > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ >Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you >with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Nov 24 02:25:29 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:25:29 -0800 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image Message-ID: <4747DFF9.5060708@msu.edu> Anyone out there have a dump of the VT100 character ROM? (This is the ROM located at E4 on the VT100 PCB, labeled as 23-018E2-00) Over the upcoming holiday break I'm planning to work on my VT100 emulator (that is, an emulation of the VT100 hardware) when I'm not spending time with the folks; I have all the other ROM images but I'm missing this one. Thanks! Josh From peter at aumod.co.uk Sat Nov 24 11:13:02 2007 From: peter at aumod.co.uk (Peter Fraser) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:13:02 -0000 Subject: Comark 1905 Message-ID: Hi Alan, You made a posting 5 years ago looking for cct for Comark 1905 Insulation Meter. Did you get any joy? - I also am looking, and as with you, current Comark gave me the brush-off. Best regards, Peter. From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Nov 24 13:02:50 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:02:50 -0800 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <4747FC50.18260.48395F88@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4746F11B.9778.44259A7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071123215109.O17000@shell.lmi.net> <4747FC50.18260.48395F88@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4748755A.5050909@msu.edu> > Internally, as a return from GetVersionEx, 32-bit Windoze versions > are kind of strange: > > Windows Server 2008 6.0 > Windows Vista 6.0 > Windows Server 2003 R2 5.2 > Windows Server 2003 5.2 > Windows XP 5.1 > Windows 2000 5.0 > Windows Me 4.90 > Windows 98 4.10 > Windows NT 4.0 4.0 > Windows 95 4.0 > > So Windows Server 2003 actually registers as being later than XP... Nothing strange about that -- XP was released in 2001. Josh From bqt at softjar.se Sun Nov 25 07:07:37 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:07:37 +0100 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <200711231716.lANHFM3i097035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711231716.lANHFM3i097035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47497399.6090806@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" skrev: > > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> ons 2007-11-21 klockan 12:00 -0600 skrev "John A. Dundas III" >> dundas at caltech.edu>: >> >>> Jerome, >>> >>> I can speak for RSTS with some authority, RSX with somewhat less authority. >>> >>> At 9:17 PM -0500 11/20/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I doubt that RSX-11 or RSTS/E allow a user access to the IOPAGE >>>> even via PREVIOUS DATA space. Can anyone confirm this assumption? >>>> >>>> >>> Address space in the I/O page for RSTS jobs (processes) was not >>> directly available. The APRs are always controlled by the OS. It >>> MIGHT be possible for a privileged job to use PEEK/POKE SYS calls to >>> access the I/O page in the way you suggest but it would be >>> particularly difficult. >>> >>> >> I thought RSTS/E had some way of remapping the address space as well. >> Can't you remap parts of your memory to some shared region, for example? >> >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > I am replying to Johnny's response, but I had also read the other > replies as well. > Thank you all for your help. > > The first point is that using a PEEK/POKE SYSTEM (EMT? - RT-11 has such > a call) > is so high in overhead that it becomes almost useless. In fact, the key > point about the > use of the EMEM.DLL under RT-11 is the efficiency. While it is possible > to access > normal "emulated PDP-11" memory (using E11 on a 750 MHz Pentium III) in > about > 0.3 micro-seconds, it takes about 1.2 micro-seconds to reference an > IOPAGE address > in some sort of way - including the PSW or the EMEM.DLL values or about > 4 times > as long. Since this is a huge improvement over using a PEEK/POKE, it is > even worth > giving up 8192 bytes of address space to a dedicated APR (of the IOPAGE) > for that > purpose. True. From an efficiency point of view, using system calls to read/write memory is very inefficient. > On the other hand, with RT-11, it is possible and easy to set the > PREVIOUS DATA > space in the PSW to KERNEL even when VBGEXE is used - more to the point, > it is actually unnecessary since that is the default for a so-called > privileged job (which > all programs are by default). This allows the instruction: > Mov @#BaseReg,R0 ;Get the current value from PC memory > to be replaced by: > MTPD @#BaseReg ;Get the current value > Mov (SP)+,R0 ; from PC memory > with almost the same time for execution. It also avoids losing that > 8192 bytes for APR7 > being available just for the IOPAGE registers. That's not possible with OSes that maintain any kind of protection between processes, along with virtual memory. The PSW as such, is not possible to manipulate. If you could, you can also change your mode to kernel even though it's currently something else. Actually, you must be in kernel mode in order to modify the PSW with any other instructions than SEx and CLx. > Obviously, a SYSTEM request avoids all of the problems at a heavy cost > in overhead > estimated at between 50 and 500 times the above two examples. > > That was sort of what I was thinking about when I asked if there was an > "fast method > (only a few instructions)" to access an IOPAGE register. Well, in RSX, you have a rather high overhead to set up the mappping to the I/O page, unless it's already mapped in when the task starts. But from there on, there is no overhead at all. It's located somewhere in your 16-bit address space. (Note that you really don't have to map the I/O page at APR7 in RSX. You can get it mapped anywhere if you use the CRAW$/MAP$ or TKB options.) However, with normal privileged programs, the I/O page is always present at APR7 even if you don't do anything. >>> RSX had a bit more flexibility (opportunity) in this regard. I >>> believe you can set up a CRAW$ (create address window) directive in >>> either Macro or Fortran to achieve the desired result. >>> >> Yes with reservation. CRAW$ (create address window) is as a part of >> doing dynamic remapping of your address space. >> However, CRAW$ always required a named memory partition. You cannot >> create an address window to an arbitrary memory address. >> Also, the memory partitions have protections and ownership associated >> with them. >> >> On most systems, CRAW$ cannot get you access to the I/O page, simply >> because normally you don't have an address space and a partition >> associated with the I/O page. >> >> But if such a partition is created, then CRAW$, in combination with MAP$ >> would allow you to access the I/O page. >> >> The same thing can also be achieved even without CRAW$/MAP$, since you >> can specify mapping that your task should have already at task build >> time, with the COMMON and RESCOM options to TKB. >> >> > This seems to be the answer if it is allowed. Obviously it does require > giving up > that 8192 bytes the have APR7 mapped to user space. Correct. > There is also another option with E11 that I will make use of when I > have finished > with the HD(X).SYS device driver for RT-11. It turns out that if the > memory is > being accessed sequentially, the average time to reference a single 16 > bit value > in the file under: > MOUNT HD: FOOBAR.DSK > is actually less than the time to get/store a single value under > EMEM.DLL when as > few as 8 blocks (2048 words at a time) are being referenced. > Consequently, setting > up a small 4096 byte buffer and the associated code to handle to calls > to the HD: > device driver (all standard calls to .ReadF and .WritF in RT-11) is > actually more > efficient since after the values are in the buffer inside the program, > the values can > be referenced and modified at "emulated PDP-11" memory speeds. You mean that using a device driver, and a device that can access the "normal" memory instead is better. Well, I'm not surprised. What this essentially turns into, is that you're emulating DMA. > Of course, the above solution for sequential references does not work > when the > references are random or when references are at regular but very large > intervals > (thousands and even millions of successive values). For this latter > situation, it > may be possible to modify EMEM.DLL so that a single reference to the IOPAGE > register modifies all of the specified values (over a range of up to > many billions of > values). Can't comment much, since I don't know exactly what you're trying to do. But speedwise, if you really want something to act like fast disk, writing something that behaves like proper DMA is the best. You give the device a memory address, a length, and a destination address on the device, and let it process the data as fast as it can, without involving the PDP-11 after that point. > Of course, the result would no longer really be a PDP-11 except for the > controlling > code which would still be 99% of the required code since the EMEM.DLL > changes > are really quite trivial, yet consume 99% of the time to execute. In > case anyone > does not appreciate what I refer to, it is back to my other addiction - > sieving for > prime numbers. I realize that I should probably switch to native > Pentium code, > but is seems more of a challenge and much more fun to run as if a PDP-11 > is being > used with a few GB of memory somewhere out there that can be easily > fiddled with > as if there is a very fast additional CPU similar to those that used to > be available for > special math applications - anyone remember SKYMNK for FFTs? Hmm, are you just creating a sieve for primes? Ok, then you need large memory somehow. Several ways of doing that. For your specific needs, a simple device in the I/O-page with a command register, an address register and a data register would probably be just about the best. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sun Nov 25 07:10:53 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:10:53 +0100 Subject: Booting XXDP+ from a secondary controller In-Reply-To: <200711231716.lANHFM3i097035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711231716.lANHFM3i097035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4749745D.1050901@softjar.se> "Bob Armstrong" skrev: > Is there a way to boot XXDP+ from a secondary MSCP controller (e.g. CSR at > 760334) ? > > > > This isn't a PDP-11 boot ROM issue - the -11 (a 11/53+ in this instance) > ROM has no problem booting from a secondary controller. > > > > The issue is that, once started, XXDP doesn't know that it should talk to > this alternate CSR address and promptly dies. I don't think so. As far as I know, XXDP don't take any hints from the boot rom code. You need to build a specific XXDP distribution with a monitor using a device driver talking to the controller at that alternate address. Not sure how you would do that. I've never tried getting system device drivers in XXDP to talk to devices at other than standard addresses. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 15:40:19 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:40:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRZ006ZZG8EKVV5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <650469.44708.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > > From: Chris M > > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:49:01 -0800 (PST) > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > >--- Allison wrote: > > > >> The one I have has an 8088, model 8530-002. > Well > >> actually I pulled > >> the board out to use the case for an SB180 with > >> Adaptec SCSI/MFM > >> adpator, a Miniscribe 20mb disk plus reusing the > >> 3,5" disk and > >> power. Made a nice case for that. Been > stripping > >> the PCs board > >> since. > > > > For one those are not vanilla floppy drives, > unless > >I'm seriously mistaken. If that thing has an 8088, > I > >want a picture. We all make mistakes, I'm not > trying > >to harangue, but I've never heard of any PC/2 > sporting > >an 8088. > > Are you sure it's a PC/2 (you know what I mean - > PS/2)? > > Yes it is. If you want a picture send a camera, no > digital > picturs possible, USB camera not an option OS is > NT4. I was referring to the mobo anyway. And it wouldn't be entirely useless w/the 8088 removed. The encoders would tell the story. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Nov 25 16:09:36 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:09:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Programming skills (was: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <01C82F3F.68C141C0@mandr71> References: <01C82F3F.68C141C0@mandr71> Message-ID: <200711252215.RAA26521@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Although some people apparently disagree, dBase is not an application > program; it's very similar to BASIC (and grew and matured just like > BASIC did) but with fairly extensive file-handling and > screen-handling capabilities. How does that make it "not an application program"? I suppose this really amounts to "just what do you understand an `application program' to be?". Certainly my own understanding of the term leaves room for something like dBase (or a Lisp engine, possibly even with a text editor attached...or for a C compiler...or for that matter for a BASIC engine). Lots of things have embedded programming languages. Some of them are sophsticated enough to be useful in their own right. Sometimes that's even the main purpose of the thing. Whether such a language engine is an application program or not is, I think, more a matter of what perspective you happen to be looking at it from than of anything inherent to the thing itself. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 25 16:19:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:19:13 -0800 Subject: Windoze reqs In-Reply-To: <4748755A.5050909@msu.edu> References: <0JRW004XOVDX6H87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4747FC50.18260.48395F88@cclist.sydex.com>, <4748755A.5050909@msu.edu> Message-ID: <47498461.12819.4E34DF5E@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2007 at 11:02, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So Windows Server 2003 actually registers as being later than XP... > Nothing strange about that -- XP was released in 2001. I guess you're right. I remember it from "Codename Whistler Server" and mistakenly remembered that it was released at about the same time as XP. Thanks for the memory refresh. Cheers, Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Sun Nov 25 16:23:53 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:23:53 -0800 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <47499D26.9080909@brutman.com> References: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> <47499D26.9080909@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Nov 25, 2007, at 8:04 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I'm digging in my secret archives. I have just one clue so far - > somebody called it a 'printer/memory' card. Based on your > description of it and this clue, I doubt that it is the comm card > for the machine. This is the same card as mine, right here. I'm not sure I buy the seller's description of it as a parallel printer card, though it's certainly possible. I could accept the description if somebody were to find some other corroborating evidence. http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-PC-XT-Parallel-Port-Card-ISA-Parallel-Printer- Card_W0QQitemZ190173053919QQihZ009QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ 1QQcmdZViewItem Interestingly, it was also removed from a 5271. Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that it's a parallel card. Would the 5271 have been capable of using the Async Adapter as a host interface? That's the only remaining I/O card in the machine. ok bear From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Nov 25 17:11:05 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:11:05 -0600 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: References: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> <47499D26.9080909@brutman.com> Message-ID: <474A0109.9010104@brutman.com> r.stricklin wrote: > > On Nov 25, 2007, at 8:04 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> I'm digging in my secret archives. I have just one clue so far - >> somebody called it a 'printer/memory' card. Based on your description >> of it and this clue, I doubt that it is the comm card for the machine. > > This is the same card as mine, right here. I'm not sure I buy the > seller's description of it as a parallel printer card, though it's > certainly possible. I could accept the description if somebody were to > find some other corroborating evidence. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-PC-XT-Parallel-Port-Card-ISA-Parallel-Printer-Card_W0QQitemZ190173053919QQihZ009QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > Interestingly, it was also removed from a 5271. > > Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that it's a > parallel card. Would the 5271 have been capable of using the Async > Adapter as a host interface? That's the only remaining I/O card in the > machine. > > ok > bear > > My theory is that your machine is not 'original'. I can't tell you which card doesn't belong .. there are a few suspects. Many of the 3270 PCs started life as floppy-only units, so the hard disk card might not be original. Another possibility is that the memory has been upgraded by replacing the host comm card with the memory/printer card or the other memory card. Lastly, I'm not sure that this machine needed the async card, but something tells me that all XT type machines that the Async adapter in that slot. (Which I think is actually slot 8, not slot one. There was something special about that slot.) Anyway, an original 3270 PC (or variant) would have a 3270 emulation board in it, and that would be connected by coax. The async adapter would have never worked for that. The other thing that puzzles me about the mystery card in your machine and the eBay card is I've never seen one. IBM had a printer port on the monochrome adapter and on the AT cards there was a parallel port/serial port card, but I have never seen an IBM card with a parallel port and memory. But, given the other special cards in that machine and what I read, it seems like that is what it is. You need somebody who has a 3270 PC guide to operations or a tech ref. Mike From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 17:10:37 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:10:37 -0600 Subject: MMD-2 and E&L Instruments Message-ID: <015201c82fb8$643238c0$6a00a8c0@JWEST> I was contacted off-list by a guy who said.... "I wrote the software in the EPROM on the MMD-2 and did some PC design work for E&L Instruments way back in the 70's, so found your site really interesting. Would love to find out if anyone actually remembers those." Apparently he didn't join the list, but if someone here is keen on talking to the guy about the MMD-2 and related stuff, contact me off-list and I'll pass on his email address. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 17:16:18 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:16:18 -0600 Subject: Fw: pdp-11 in salt lake Message-ID: <016d01c82fb9$2f455fb0$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Contact original poster directly... Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Midgley" To: > I rescued a pdp-11 (approx 6u rackmount size) on its way to the > landfill. The faceplate is missing and the operating condition is > unknown. I can see a full-height hard drive and some kind of tape drive > in the front. Do you know anyone who's interested in having it? > > thanks > Brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 17:18:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:18:49 -0600 Subject: Available Fw: LSI 11-83 and more stuff Message-ID: <017801c82fb9$89d2d4d0$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Contact original poster directly... gear is in Tracy, Ca. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Taylor, Joe (US SSA)" To: "Jay West" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 11:26 AM Subject: RE: LSI 11-83 and more stuff > Hello Jay, > I got one machine with several cpu's, Memory cards, Hard disk and > controller, and serial cards. It is not a Dec chassis but some other > builder but most of the boards are Dec. I think I even have a extra > power supply and some software (RT-11 and RTS) but I will have to look > for that. Not much documentation I have one PDP-11 cpu book. > I think I even have one of the last versions of the cpu card something > like a 11-87 or something like that. > > I even have a real vt100 some place. > > I live in Tracy Ca. > > No date that I have to get rid of the stuff, I just want it to go to a > good home. I like the old machine I just don't have time to fool with it > like I would like to. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 17:21:29 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:21:29 -0600 Subject: DEC gear available in the UK Message-ID: <019601c82fb9$e9228cf0$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Here's one for our UK friends... Contact original emailer directly... Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Moorhead" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 7:09 PM >I have documentation and tapes for RT11 and TSX11 plus sundry other > docs. I need the space, how can I dispose of them free to a good home. > > I can also give you a contact for 2x pdp11/24 and 1x pdp11/34 but they > may have been disposed of already. > > ----------------- > Mike Moorhead Gloucester, United Kingdom From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 17:23:00 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:23:00 -0600 Subject: Available DEC Message-ID: <01a401c82fba$1eed9b90$6a00a8c0@JWEST> I have not researched this further than what you see below. Contact original emailer directly... Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "cindy stewart" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 10:01 PM Subject: We have what you want > Dear Sir: > We have a complete DEC PDP 11 system. If you are interested in > purchasing it, please write back to this address. > > Best Regards, > > Cindy Stewart > St. Augustine, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 17:24:07 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:24:07 -0600 Subject: available Fw: micro pdp Message-ID: <01ae01c82fba$47542ae0$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Contact original emailer below if interested.... Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Young, Steve W" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 1:50 PM Subject: micro pdp >I have a micro PDP 11C23-RE with 1.5 Meg memory, tape drive and floppy, > RD52A, Ethernet card, 4 line card. Anyone want to buy it? Also vt240 > terminal. I am in San Jose. thanks > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 17:27:19 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:27:19 -0600 Subject: available Fw: old DEC mini computer Message-ID: <01ba01c82fba$b98bd270$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Contact original emailer if interested.... Whoever gets this deal owes me... what with the two RK05's and all! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lundberg" To: Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:43 PM Subject: old DEC mini computer Hi I have a DEC 310 system that needs a new home. This is a desk system with four 8 inch floppy drives. I also have 2 RK05 rack mounted drives and a wide carriage DEC printer. The system has not been powered up in many years but everything worked the last time it was on. Would you know of anyone who would be interested in acquiring this equipment? Thanks for your time, John Lundberg From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 17:31:18 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:31:18 -0600 Subject: available Fw: vax equipment... (vax, teletype, tektronix, TI980 mini) Message-ID: <01c301c82fbb$48301680$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Here is a deal that I may want a part of, interested parties contact me off-list please.... Jay West > VAX 11/730 (with Bravo 3 CAD software) > The VAX also has a separate magnetic tape drive in another cabinet > A spare parts VAX > 2 spare hard drives > a couple teletype style terminals > 3 or 4 Tektronix terminals (with stylii for cad work) > a plotter > a couple paper tape punches > a large number of the large disc catridges > TI-980 w/ an ST-1 terminal From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 17:08:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:08:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 24, 7 10:27:04 pm Message-ID: > I got my math wrong. The fellow is also wrong. > 45/60 = .75. > 100/.75 = 133.333.... > If rounded to 133, you get 45.11278195---- Incidentally, I asked a friend wbo is both a classic computer enthusiast and a musician if there would he any audible difference between playing the record at 45rpm and at 45.11 rpm. He said he didn't believe anyone could tell them apart. So I susepct the only people this matters to are the audiophools. Actually I am suprised nobofy has tried to sell said audiophools a crytal-controlled lamp to view the strob disk with. Or amybe they have and I've not noticed it yet. > Still, using Tony's multiple method, 400 dots > would work fine. It would be a large disk but > it would work. It's hardly 'my method'. I certainly don't claim to have invented it, but alas I can't find a reference to it. I am not sure when stroboscopes were invented, I susepct they pre-date electricity, though. Certainly stroboscpinc tuning forks exist -- these a tuning forkes with slotted vanes on the tines (they are designed to have the extra mass of said vanes, of course)< you view the stroboscopic disk (or wahtever) through the slits. To make this marginally on-topic,such tuning forks were used, at least in the UK, to set the speed of teleprinter motors. Creed teleprinters have series-wound motors with a governor assembly on the end of the motor, and you viewed the black and white stripes on the governor cover through such a tuning fork. Somewhere I have a trleprinter test set (an ATE (manfufacturer) TDMS5 if you know about such things). The master oscillator not only drives the ring counter that acts as the transmit distributor (the whole thing is valved, BTW), but also a neon lamp on the panel. You are supposed to view this lamp trhough one of said tuning forks and effectively 'zero beat' the bulb agianst the fork to get the oscillator on-frequency. One other thing to be aware of. The ideal strobosope has very narrow flashes of light with larger gaps between them. If you are using a 'harmonic disk' (or whatever you want to call it), you need to get closer to this ideal than for a normal disk (at leat to get a very clear pattern). Of coure a real xenon-tube strobe does this, a mains neon bulb may not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 17:17:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:17:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> from "r.stricklin" at Nov 24, 7 11:29:49 pm Message-ID: > As there is no 3270 coax card and no open slot to have once held one, > I suspect that the 3270 host interface is the unknown card in slot 7. > I own IBM SDLC and Bisync adapter cards, and this one doesn't look > like either. > > Physical characteristics: > > * 8-bit, short card. > * One DB25F on the bulkhead. > * 9x Oki M37S64-20; apparently 64Kx1 memories. THose aren't piggybacked chips by any chance, are they? > * 34 pin .100" header, vertically, at back end of card (J2) > * one 4-pos DIP switch at top right. > * Pretty much everything else on the card is 74LS-series TTL or passive. > > It's built like IBM made it, but I can't find any obvious IBM-style > part number on it, unless it's 2683541. Google is silent on this > number. (update: I just noticed 6320999 in the etch, but that hasn't > gotten me any closer to an answer). I know of one card that almost matches that description, except that there are puggybacked RAMs for a total of 128K. Ans that's a combined parallel printer card and 128K RAM card (together with 256K on the motherboard and 256K on the memory card, that would give you the 640K maximum RAM of a PC/XT system). I have one here. It says 'PN 6236193' in the silkscreen on the solder side of the PCB, and has '6236194' in the etch. Otherwise it matches your description, except that U27 is a delay line (you didn't mention one of these) I thought the 3270 host interface was a full-legth card with a BNC socket on the brakcet and an 8X300-seires microcontroller on it. But I might be thinking of soemthing else. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 17:33:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:33:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Programming skills (was: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <01C82F3F.68C141C0@mandr71> from "M H Stein" at Nov 25, 7 08:44:31 am Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:54:44 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers... > > >> Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it better; in my opinion taking > >> advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you more > >> professional, not less. > > >I would agree, but... > > >1) Being able ot use the tools, however proficiently, does not > >necessarily equate with being able to design/make those tools. > -------- > Why do my recent posts seem to generate such odd responses... > Or is it just me? I shall refrain from commenting :-) > > Why the "but"? Did I imply anything of the sort? Did I say that a > carpenter should know how to make an electric saw or even repair > it when it would be a more efficient use of his time and skills to just > take it to a shop or buy a new one? I would not consider anyone to be a competant machinist if they couldn't grind their own lathe tools. In fact just about every book i have on metalwork, amateur angineering, clockmaking, etc. points out that many specialised tools do have to be made in the workshop. > >When you're prodcuing something, of course you use all the applicable > >tools. When you're leaning about things, you have to do things 'by hand' > >to understand them (and example of this, from another context, is that > >photography couses used to insist that the students used cameras with > >manaul focuessing and exposure cotnrol, so they could learn what said > >adjustments meant, even though if you were being paid to take photographs > >you would _probably_ welcome some automation). > > >In fact I will go further and say that the true professionals not only use the right > >tools, but also fully understnad how those tools work and behave, because that > >way they can use them more effectvely. > ----------- > I kind of thought that being "proficient," i.e. "having an advanced degree of > competence" in their use of tools expressed the same sentiment. > > Of course as a professional you should know what those camera adjustments > mean and do, but you don't necessarily have to know *how* they work unless While I wouldn't expect a professional photographer to know, say, the exact operation of the 3 escapements in a pre-war Contax II shutter (!), there is rather more to knowing what a shutter pseed control does than 'it varies the exposure time'. I can think of serveral instances where knwoing rather more about the shutter operation is essntial, e.g. flash work with a focal plane shutter, and more interestingly how the shutter design can distort the image of moving objects. > you're interested or plan to go into camera design or repair, or expect to have > to repair it in the middle of nowhere; "how they behave" is not at all the same > as "how they work." _I_ find it easier to know how something will behave if I know how it really works. The latter is based on a few simple physical principles most of the tiem, so it's not something I am going to mis-rememeber at a critical momnet. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 17:36:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:36:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: classiccmp / cctalk / cctech (fwd) Message-ID: I have been asked to forward this to the list, since for some reaon the original poster is having problems doing so. -tony > The classiccmp moderation system is out of action. This mainly affects > the cctech list, but there are a few subscribers who post from an > address different to the one they are subscribed with and their postings > must be manually moderated through to cctalk. Sorry! > > Thanks, > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > Ph +44(0)1869-811059 http://www.ljw.me.uk > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 18:05:47 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:05:47 -0500 Subject: IBM 5251 keyboard Message-ID: <001501c82fc0$19103ce0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I still have this IBM 5251 keyboard. Does anyone want it? It is just taking up space in my basement now. I have not made any modifications to it but I do not know whether it works or not. Since I have fixed a different parallel ASCII keyboard to work with my Vector Graphic restoration I no longer need this IBM 5251 keyboard. I would like to trade the IBM keyboard for a case to put my parallel ASCII keyboard in but other items gladly considered. Thanks! Andrew Lynch Vector Graphic Mail List: http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=VECTOR-GRAPHIC NorthStar Mail List: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthStar_Computers From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 18:15:41 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:15:41 -0600 Subject: classiccmp / cctalk / cctech (fwd) References: Message-ID: <026d01c82fc1$7b2ba2b0$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Tony wrote.... >I have been asked to forward this to the list, since for some reaon the > original poster is having problems doing so. Lawrence sent me an email about this saturday at 3:30pm. I just got the email tonight and fixed it about an hour ago - and emailed him that it was back up. We were moving some systems in the datacenter (to re-arrange power draw on circuits). The classiccmp server came back up, but for some reason apache didn't start automatically (and it is set to do so). I started it manually, but will research why it failed to autostart upon boot. In a nutshell - problem solved. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 25 18:20:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:20:53 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 24, 7 10:27:04 pm, Message-ID: <4749A0E5.16134.4EA4454A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2007 at 23:08, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, I asked a friend wbo is both a classic computer enthusiast > and a musician if there would he any audible difference between playing > the record at 45rpm and at 45.11 rpm. He said he didn't believe anyone > could tell them apart. So I susepct the only people this matters to are > the audiophools. It depends. .11/45 is about 0.24 percent change in absolute pitch. Since, in our western 12-tone scale, even-tempered semitones are approximately 6 percent apart (12th root of 2), that 0.24 percent represents about 4 cents (in musical terms) difference in tuning. Not huge, but if I were trying to play in unison with a recording, I might notice that the recording was a bit sharp, particularly in unisons. The middle-of-the-keyboard 440 Hz A would be about 441 Hz at 45.11 RPM. Not much, but not altogether invisible. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Nov 25 18:26:06 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:26:06 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005b01c82fc2$f06bd9e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > The C64 is a great machine, but you're not going to >learn many *deep* details about the hardware (not that >it's necessarily an issue).... I disagree. The beauty of the '64 in respect of learning about computer architecture is PRECISELY because the graphics and sound are handled by custom chips, rather than a bunch of TTL. You have a nice relatively simple system divided up into nice logical blocks....nice and easy to get to grips with for the uninitiated. Also, full schematic diagrams for the machine were included in the "Programmer's Reference Guide". >....The 64 has the weirdest video memory layout you >could ask for (afaik), and the books aren't always >cheap (eBay). A few of them are a necessity.... Wierd video memory layout? It's been *FAR* too many years since I programmed the 64, but I don't remember it being particularly wierd....or are you referring to the fixed block of "color" RAM? Definitely right about the books! At the very least you'd need the "Programmer's Reference Guide" (worth it's weight in gold) and a kernal disassembly. OK, so eBay is the easy option, but I'm sure you could turn something up ata charity shop...? >....I do have a book about interfacing to it's various >i/o ports, and even a book on "advanced" assembler. I never did any interfacing with my 64, all my hobby programming/hacking was done with my Ataris; I was being paid to write games on the '64, other than that I didn't really use it.... Eeek, that brings back memories. I really grew to appreciate how slow the serial bus was when assembling code using Commodore's disc based assembler on a 1541! :-( TTFN - Pete. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Nov 25 18:28:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:28:38 -0700 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:25:29 -0800. <4747DFF9.5060708@msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4747DFF9.5060708 at msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > Anyone out there have a dump of the VT100 character ROM? (This is the > ROM located at E4 on the VT100 PCB, labeled as 23-018E2-00) Did you look in the usual places? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Nov 25 18:33:14 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:33:14 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4748B79C.5060602@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <006001c82fc3$ee695db0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > C64 BASIC is pretty bad. PET BASIC or better yet, C128 Basic >were a lot better. I suppose with the Simon's Basic cart, C64 >BASIC was quite nice. > > Sure, you can do a lot with C64 Basic, but everything is a poke, >peek, or a SYS call. It's much nicer when the BASIC you're using >has commands for all that stuff built in. But we're talking about someone who's learning BASIC from scratch, for which the C64's BASIC would be perfectly adequate - and there's always the option of something like "Simon's BASIC" later.... I'd have suggested something running "BBC BASIC" but the Beeb is a fairly formidable system to understand and the Electron, ISTR, has most of the electronics inside a ULA so you wouldn't really learn anything useful about it. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Nov 25 18:38:17 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:38:17 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com><4748B79C.5060602@arachelian.com> <20071125022441.GB28838@usap.gov> Message-ID: <006f01c82fc4$a2fec440$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....on that one, you had to load the monitor from tape). TIM? TTFN - Pete. From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 25 19:01:20 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:01:20 -0500 Subject: Commodore Watches (was Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. Message-ID: <01C82F9E.127A43C0@mandr71> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:12:44 -0500 (EST) From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Subject: Re: Commodore PET first shipemnt in mid October 1977. >> Does anyone collect Commodore wristwatches? Do any working ones >> survive? >> >I know TPUG (http://www.tpug.ca) was selling a bunch of NOS C= >wristwatches a few years back... >Cheers, >Bryan --------- They're still (again?) available, although you'd have to be quick with your order; contact: Ben Kayfitz - downtownben at hotmail.com m From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 19:23:11 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:23:11 -0600 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting References: from "dwight elvey"at Nov 24, 7 10:27:04 pm, <4749A0E5.16134.4EA4454A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001201c82fca$e998bea0$6a00a8c0@JWEST> And.... that would be completely offtopic. Re: record speed From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 19:34:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:34:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga 1000 Message-ID: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> does anyone operate one of these? That is does anyone favor this machine over any of the later models? Commercially ISTR it being a flop, so that might seem like a strange question, but there is no lack of strange birds on this list. If you know what I mean LOL LOL! Hey maybe I'm stranger then the rest of you birds LOL LOL LOL! anyhow interested in the thoughts that find this unit particularly enjoyable. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Nov 25 19:37:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:37:44 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <006f01c82fc4$a2fec440$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <20071125022441.GB28838@usap.gov> <006f01c82fc4$a2fec440$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20071126013744.GA9293@usap.gov> On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 12:38:17AM -0000, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....on that one, you had to load the monitor from tape). > > TIM? Yes, TIM is the name of the 6502 monitor that Commodore shipped on tape with BASIC 1.0 PETs and included in ROM on later PETs. ISTR it was available for other machines as well - it's compact and provides rudimentary functionality (display/alter/load/save memory, display/alter 6502 registers, begin execution, and, importantly, catch BRK instructions (executing a 0x00). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Nov-2007 at 01:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -32.6 F (-35.9 C) Windchill -32.6 F (-35.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 0.0 kts Grid 293 Barometer 681.4 mb (10575 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 25 19:44:49 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:44:49 -0500 Subject: Programming skills (was: Teaching kids about Message-ID: <01C82FA4.234007C0@mandr71> --------Original Message: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:09:36 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Subject: Re: Programming skills (was: Teaching kids about computers...) >> Although some people apparently disagree, dBase is not an application >> program; it's very similar to BASIC (and grew and matured just like >> BASIC did) but with fairly extensive file-handling and >> screen-handling capabilities. >How does that make it "not an application program"? >I suppose this really amounts to "just what do you understand an >`application program' to be?". Certainly my own understanding of the >term leaves room for something like dBase (or a Lisp engine, possibly >even with a text editor attached...or for a C compiler...or for that >matter for a BASIC engine). ---------Reply: You're absolutely correct of course; *any* piece of software written to make a computer do a certain task, including compilers, assemblers etc. is an "application program" and I thank you for pointing out that there is no distinction to be made between an accounting package or an MP3 player or the software controlling a car's engine and a computer "language" with defined words and symbols, rules of grammar and syntax etc. designed and used specifically to "program" some of those very applications (and which I mis-understood to be something distinct from an "application program")... And of course there's no categorical difference either between a hammer and saw and the chest of drawers one might build with them; both items intended for a specific "application." I've learned an important lesson (mainly: to as of right now try *very hard* to stop wasting time with these picayune "discussions") and I thank you again. m From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 20:22:57 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:22:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: possibly OT: Styli Message-ID: <572113.93252.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> did I spell styli correctly? Anyway does anyone know what's inside these things? That is the "radio frequency" type. I ordered a *bare* Stylistic 1000 and if I want to play etch_a_sketch on the screen I'm going to have to build one. No way I'm pay $40-75 for one seeing the unit cost $30! The Hacker Ethic says "how hard could it be to build my own stylus?". God made the whole Universe in 6 days, so... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ray at arachelian.com Sun Nov 25 21:02:04 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:02:04 -0500 Subject: [lisaem] LisaEm 1.2.5 released - more bug fixes In-Reply-To: <4737D744.3040509@arachelian.com> References: <46F87B77.4000102@arachelian.com> <4737D744.3040509@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <474A372C.3040506@arachelian.com> LisaEm 1.2.5 has been released. As usual, it can be downloaded from http://lisaem.sunder.net/downloads.html. This version, like the last is bug fixes. Mostly for the ImageWriter printer emulation. One option has been added to help balance the time given to the 68000 emulation versus display animation, which should help slower machines. 2007.11.22 - imagewriter - fixed page size - at least for LisaWrite 2007.11.21 - imagewriter lowercase letter "t" was broken - imagewriter page size tweaking 2007.11.18 - found way to make graphics smoother, added menu options to throttle menu to define balance between animation and CPU time. If you'd like to support this project, you can do so by sending me something from my Amazon wish list. (Used books and DVD's are perfectly fine with me.) The trains are for my kid. :) http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/14EOBF86ARMDT From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 25 21:04:00 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:04:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474A37A0.1020906@compsys.to> >Henk Gooijen wrote: >second try ... it seems like Outlook Express settings are still not ok ... >Hope this post is more readable! > Jerome Fine replies: Your second attempt could actually be read! >- RT-11 V5.4 SRC micro fiche (#1 - #86) > in two envelopes complete with the Bill of Material! >- complete RT-11 V4 manual set in blue binders >- complete RT-11 V5 manual set in orange binders > I have been intending to ask Al Kossow if he has been able to scan copies of the various RT-11 DOC sets. However, it seems a bit unreasonable to attempt to scan anything except the latest versions - which are still copyright - except that it may no longer be possible to purchase them from Mentec (has anyone recently tried?) In that situation, DEC always allowed out of print manuals to be copied - especially if the user already owned a valid RT-11 license. If the intended use was non-commercial, DEC also seemed agreeable, however, now that Mentec/HP are involved, the situation may be very different. Note that a complete RT-11 DOC set was about 10,000 pages starting with V05.00 of RT-11. For V05.06 of RT-11, there were 13 binders. V05.07 was almost identical with the ONLY difference being the name "COMPAQ" on the heavy paper front page with the window AND the V05.07 Release Notes - otherwise, all of the rest of the DOC set was identical to V05.06 DOC set of RT-11. As for the SRC fiche, it would be interesting to see if they are the same as the SRC distribution set of files for V05.04 of RT-11. Although the actual files are much more useful, the fiche do serve as a hard copy backup. Is there any way that a small file could be used as a comparison? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 25 21:06:28 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:06:28 -0500 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <47497399.6090806@softjar.se> References: <200711231716.lANHFM3i097035@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47497399.6090806@softjar.se> Message-ID: <474A3834.20707@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> I am replying to Johnny's response, but I had also read the other >> replies as well. >> Thank you all for your help. >> >> The first point is that using a PEEK/POKE SYSTEM (EMT? - RT-11 has >> such a call) >> is so high in overhead that it becomes almost useless. In fact, the >> key point about the >> use of the EMEM.DLL under RT-11 is the efficiency. While it is >> possible to access >> normal "emulated PDP-11" memory (using E11 on a 750 MHz Pentium III) >> in about >> 0.3 micro-seconds, it takes about 1.2 micro-seconds to reference an >> IOPAGE address >> in some sort of way - including the PSW or the EMEM.DLL values or >> about 4 times >> as long. Since this is a huge improvement over using a PEEK/POKE, it >> is even worth >> giving up 8192 bytes of address space to a dedicated APR (of the >> IOPAGE) for that >> purpose. > > True. From an efficiency point of view, using system calls to > read/write memory is very inefficient. Jerome Fine replies: Which means that using a system call is useful only during initialization. For example, RT-11 allows the user to .Peek/.Poke the PSW which I agree would be VERY unreasonable under RSX-11 and RSTS/E which depend on the KERNEL code maintaining complete control. However, under RT-11, the VBGEXE program sets the PREVIOUS DATA space to user mode for reasons which I do not understand. Fortunately, it is possible to use the .Poke system call to set the PREVIOUS DATA space back to KERNEL which is what the RT-11 setting is prior to using VBGEXE. When the PREVIOUS DATA space is KERNEL, it is possible to use the 2 instruction example given below. So a system call to .Poke during initialization is entirely acceptable. >> On the other hand, with RT-11, it is possible and easy to set the >> PREVIOUS DATA >> space in the PSW to KERNEL even when VBGEXE is used - more to the point, >> it is actually unnecessary since that is the default for a so-called >> privileged job (which >> all programs are by default). This allows the instruction: >> Mov @#BaseReg,R0 ;Get the current value from PC >> memory >> to be replaced by: >> MTPD @#BaseReg ;Get the current value >> Mov (SP)+,R0 ; from PC memory >> with almost the same time for execution. It also avoids losing that >> 8192 bytes for APR7 >> being available just for the IOPAGE registers. > > That's not possible with OSes that maintain any kind of protection > between processes, along with virtual memory. > The PSW as such, is not possible to manipulate. If you could, you can > also change your mode to kernel even though it's currently something > else. > Actually, you must be in kernel mode in order to modify the PSW with > any other instructions than SEx and CLx. See my previous response with respect to RT-11 and my agreement that under RSX-11 and RSTS/E, the PSW must NEVER be modified by a user program or a .Poke requested by a user program. >> Obviously, a SYSTEM request avoids all of the problems at a heavy >> cost in overhead >> estimated at between 50 and 500 times the above two examples. >> >> That was sort of what I was thinking about when I asked if there was >> an "fast method >> (only a few instructions)" to access an IOPAGE register. > > Well, in RSX, you have a rather high overhead to set up the mappping > to the I/O page, unless it's already mapped in when the task starts. > But from there on, there is no overhead at all. It's located somewhere > in your 16-bit address space. (Note that you really don't have to map > the I/O page at APR7 in RSX. You can get it mapped anywhere if you use > the CRAW$/MAP$ or TKB options.) That is helpful information. There might be times when APR7 should not be used. > However, with normal privileged programs, the I/O page is always > present at APR7 even if you don't do anything. Also VERY helpful. However, if so, then would there be any reason why APR7 could not be mapped to user memory in the normal manner so that the user program has a full 65536 bytes of address space, but then the PREVIOUS DATA space is mapped to KERNEL providing the user with complete access to the IOPAGE registers via that 2 instruction example that I gave at the beginning? I can't see that there would be any greater loss of security since being able to change the IOPAGE registers either directly or indirectly is just as damaging! Please comment? >>>> RSX had a bit more flexibility (opportunity) in this regard. I >>>> believe you can set up a CRAW$ (create address window) directive in >>>> either Macro or Fortran to achieve the desired result. >>> >>> Yes with reservation. CRAW$ (create address window) is as a part of >>> doing dynamic remapping of your address space. >>> However, CRAW$ always required a named memory partition. You cannot >>> create an address window to an arbitrary memory address. >>> Also, the memory partitions have protections and ownership associated >>> with them. >>> >>> On most systems, CRAW$ cannot get you access to the I/O page, simply >>> because normally you don't have an address space and a partition >>> associated with the I/O page. >>> >>> But if such a partition is created, then CRAW$, in combination with >>> MAP$ >>> would allow you to access the I/O page. >>> >>> The same thing can also be achieved even without CRAW$/MAP$, since you >>> can specify mapping that your task should have already at task build >>> time, with the COMMON and RESCOM options to TKB. >> >> This seems to be the answer if it is allowed. Obviously it does >> require giving up >> that 8192 bytes the have APR7 mapped to user space. > > Correct. But unnecessary if privileged jobs already have access to the IOPAGE. Please comment? >> There is also another option with E11 that I will make use of when I >> have finished >> with the HD(X).SYS device driver for RT-11. It turns out that if the >> memory is >> being accessed sequentially, the average time to reference a single >> 16 bit value >> in the file under: >> MOUNT HD: FOOBAR.DSK >> is actually less than the time to get/store a single value under >> EMEM.DLL when as >> few as 8 blocks (2048 words at a time) are being referenced. >> Consequently, setting >> up a small 4096 byte buffer and the associated code to handle to >> calls to the HD: >> device driver (all standard calls to .ReadF and .WritF in RT-11) is >> actually more >> efficient since after the values are in the buffer inside the >> program, the values can >> be referenced and modified at "emulated PDP-11" memory speeds. > > You mean that using a device driver, and a device that can access the > "normal" memory instead is better. Well, I'm not surprised. What this > essentially turns into, is that you're emulating DMA. Actually, under E11, it is almost identical in principle to the VM: device driver which accesses "emulated normal PDP-11 extended memory". The E11 command: MOUNT HD: RAM:/SIZE:number-of-blocks makes HD: into a Virtual Memory device which directly uses PC memory. However, the average transfer rate per word for even a few blocks (or a few thousand words) from/into emulated user memory is a small fraction of a normal memory access time. In addition, if an operating system caches the blocks in a file, the same speed is achieved. >> Of course, the above solution for sequential references does not work >> when the >> references are random or when references are at regular but very >> large intervals >> (thousands and even millions of successive values). For this latter >> situation, it >> may be possible to modify EMEM.DLL so that a single reference to the >> IOPAGE >> register modifies all of the specified values (over a range of up to >> many billions of >> values). > > Can't comment much, since I don't know exactly what you're trying to do. > But speedwise, if you really want something to act like fast disk, > writing something that behaves like proper DMA is the best. > You give the device a memory address, a length, and a destination > address on the device, and let it process the data as fast as it can, > without involving the PDP-11 after that point. It is just a bit more complicated since the memory address can be anywhere in the 4 MB of emulated PDP-11 memory. So 22 bit address is required - which can be determined during initialization. The even better aspect is that the code (only about a dozen instructions which set up the 6 IOPAGE registers) can be in user space which avoids the overhead of a system call. And if you don't think that amounts to much, my benchmarks show that the transfer speeds with just 8 blocks (2048 words or 4096 bytes) take about half the time as a normal system call. Fewer blocks are even more efficient vs system calls. >> Of course, the result would no longer really be a PDP-11 except for >> the controlling >> code which would still be 99% of the required code since the EMEM.DLL >> changes >> are really quite trivial, yet consume 99% of the time to execute. In >> case anyone >> does not appreciate what I refer to, it is back to my other addiction >> - sieving for >> prime numbers. I realize that I should probably switch to native >> Pentium code, >> but is seems more of a challenge and much more fun to run as if a >> PDP-11 is being >> used with a few GB of memory somewhere out there that can be easily >> fiddled with >> as if there is a very fast additional CPU similar to those that used >> to be available for >> special math applications - anyone remember SKYMNK for FFTs? > > Hmm, are you just creating a sieve for primes? Ok, then you need large > memory somehow. > Several ways of doing that. For your specific needs, a simple device > in the I/O-page with a command register, an address register and a > data register would probably be just about the best. For a demonstration program to sieve up to 10**12, I can use normal PDP-11 memory for the work area of around 30 KB. The 2 arrays which will be used sequentially will require 78,498 elements each that are 32 bits or 4 bytes each - a total of less than a MB, but since they are used sequentially, can be easily read / written in groups of 2048 words or 8 blocks each. For those not familiar with sieving for primes, a very large memory is used! The problem is that sieving requires the storage of large memory used both sequentially and what seems like randomly. One array is used to store the primes being used. A second array is used to store the next location to be used in the work area for that prime. The work area is normally as large as possible and is accessed at intervals equal to the current prime being processed. These days, a sieve program up to a billion (10**9) is considered trivial. Most individuals who are serious consider any range under a trillion (10**12) to be in the nature of a toy. However, since the number of primes up to a trillion - described as pi(10**12) = 37,607,912,018 - requires more than 16 bits per element for the second array, just the storage of the second array of at least 78,498 elements is over 1/4 MB. And since pi(10**9) = 50,847,534 which is the number of elements in the second array required to sieve up to pi(10**18) = 24,739,954,287,740,860 for which 30 bits per element is just sufficient, the second array then requires over 200 megabytes. Of course, these memory sizes are no longer even very large for a current Pentium III system (I have a Pentium III with 768 MB of memory) and with a Pentium 4, they are only a small aspect of the problem. However, for the PDP-11, they are obviously impossible. Thus my interest in using E11 and the features that I have described. Note that pi(10**22) is considered to be known and pi (10**23) is likely known, having been recently found this year. pi(10**24) has still not been published, but will likely be known in the next year or two when faster algorithms are found or faster CPUs are used. Sieve programs were not used to find these values. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Nov 25 21:39:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:39:11 -0700 Subject: RT-11 docs (was: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:04:00 -0500. <474A37A0.1020906@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <474A37A0.1020906 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > Note that a complete RT-11 DOC set was about 10,000 pages > starting with V05.00 of RT-11. For V05.06 of RT-11, there > were 13 binders. Really? Does anyone know the title of the binders? I have a PDP-11/03 w/RT-11 and it included just a few binders, so I didn't think the doc set was that large. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 22:04:25 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:04:25 -0600 Subject: RT-11 docs (was: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available) References: Message-ID: <00b201c82fe1$6f75fe50$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Richard wrote.... > Really? Yes > Does anyone know the title of the binders? I'm not up for going downstairs and writing the titles down just now. But there's about 13 of them, I'd guess the line of manual binders is perhaps 3 feet long. > I have a PDP-11/03 w/RT-11 and it included just a few binders, so I > didn't think the doc set was that large. That would not be a complete documentation set. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 25 22:11:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:11:06 -0600 Subject: Update Re: available Fw: vax equipment... (vax, teletype, tektronix, TI980 mini) References: <01c301c82fbb$48301680$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <00db01c82fe2$5e4edc40$6a00a8c0@JWEST> I had written..... > Here is a deal that I may want a part of, interested parties contact me > off-list please.... Location is Phoenix, AZ From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sun Nov 25 22:16:19 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:16:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: Ebay item: Apple III Message-ID: <1196050579.474a489330a53@www.jblaser.org> While I may have cut my teeth on an original Apple II (still in working condition!), but I think I'll pass on this. Looks like just the hardware...no doc or software. But for those that are interested... 150187810446 150187813983 - Jared (I have no connection with the seller). From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 25 22:19:51 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:19:51 -0800 Subject: RT-11 docs (was: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available) In-Reply-To: <00b201c82fe1$6f75fe50$6a00a8c0@JWEST> References: <00b201c82fe1$6f75fe50$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: At 10:04 PM -0600 11/25/07, Jay West wrote: >Richard wrote.... >>Really? >Yes > >>Does anyone know the title of the binders? >I'm not up for going downstairs and writing the titles down just >now. But there's about 13 of them, I'd guess the line of manual >binders is perhaps 3 feet long. > >>I have a PDP-11/03 w/RT-11 and it included just a few binders, so I >>didn't think the doc set was that large. >That would not be a complete documentation set. > >Jay Good grief, that is a lot larger than any doc set I've ever seen for RT-11. I had V3, V4 (both donated to the Library), and still have 5.0x (I think 5.04). I'd be interested in knowing the titles as well. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bear at typewritten.org Sun Nov 25 23:37:08 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:37:08 -0800 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 25, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > THose aren't piggybacked chips by any chance, are they? I didn't look very closely at first and assumed they were socketed, but you're right. They are piggybacked. > Otherwise it matches your description, except that U27 is a delay > line (you didn't mention one of these) I didn't recognize it as a delay line. What I have is a printer/ memory adapter. The other question remains, however: was it possible to use the Async Adapter for the 3270 host connection, probably in combination with a modem of some description? I always assumed that one needed SDLC or Bisync to do this in the absence of the obvious (coax) interface. ok bear From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 25 23:41:43 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:41:43 -0600 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474A5C97.8050404@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > does anyone operate one of these? That is does anyone > favor this machine over any of the later models? > Commercially ISTR it being a flop, so that might seem > like a strange question, but there is no lack of > strange birds on this list. If you know what I mean > LOL LOL! Hey maybe I'm stranger then the rest of you > birds LOL LOL LOL! > anyhow interested in the thoughts that find this unit > particularly enjoyable. It's the first, so historically it has significance. It's also worth a bit more money than an A500 or A2000 because of the production run numbers. It's a bit annoying to operate since you need both a kickstart disk and then an operating system disk to get to the operating system. (Some bootable games will only require the kickstart.) As for any *practical* reasons to operate one, there is some software (circa 1985-1986) that will *only* run on early versions of kickstart. Most of the games with this requirement have been patched or otherwise worked around, but not the commercial applications. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Nov 25 16:34:43 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:34:43 -0800 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: References: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> <47499D26.9080909@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4749F883.4030903@msu.edu> I have the exact same card, from my 5271. I have no idea if it's actually a parallel port card or not, though I suppose I could test it out :). However, my 5271 originally (a long time ago, before I inherited it) had a card with a BNC connector on the back, which sounds like it may have been a host interface. Unfortunately I didn't get the card when I inherited the machine (the previous user removed it to install a modem in its place), so I can't provide more info. There's a chance I may be able to get in touch with him over the holidays, and if so I'll see if he still has it lying around somewhere... Josh r.stricklin wrote: > > On Nov 25, 2007, at 8:04 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> I'm digging in my secret archives. I have just one clue so far - >> somebody called it a 'printer/memory' card. Based on your >> description of it and this clue, I doubt that it is the comm card for >> the machine. > > This is the same card as mine, right here. I'm not sure I buy the > seller's description of it as a parallel printer card, though it's > certainly possible. I could accept the description if somebody were to > find some other corroborating evidence. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-PC-XT-Parallel-Port-Card-ISA-Parallel-Printer-Card_W0QQitemZ190173053919QQihZ009QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > Interestingly, it was also removed from a 5271. > > Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that it's > a parallel card. Would the 5271 have been capable of using the Async > Adapter as a host interface? That's the only remaining I/O card in the > machine. > > ok > bear > > From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Nov 25 17:07:06 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:07:06 -0800 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <4749F883.4030903@msu.edu> References: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> <47499D26.9080909@brutman.com> <4749F883.4030903@msu.edu> Message-ID: <474A001A.8040106@msu.edu> Just did some testing, threw the card into my IBM PC and it shows up as a parallel port card under Snooper. So I'd guess that's what it is :). Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > I have the exact same card, from my 5271. I have no idea if it's > actually a parallel port card or not, though I suppose I could test it > out :). > > However, my 5271 originally (a long time ago, before I inherited it) > had a card with a BNC connector on the back, which sounds like it may > have been a host interface. Unfortunately I didn't get the card when > I inherited the machine (the previous user removed it to install a > modem in its place), so I can't provide more info. There's a chance I > may be able to get in touch with him over the holidays, and if so I'll > see if he still has it lying around somewhere... > > Josh > > r.stricklin wrote: >> >> On Nov 25, 2007, at 8:04 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> >>> I'm digging in my secret archives. I have just one clue so far - >>> somebody called it a 'printer/memory' card. Based on your >>> description of it and this clue, I doubt that it is the comm card >>> for the machine. >> >> This is the same card as mine, right here. I'm not sure I buy the >> seller's description of it as a parallel printer card, though it's >> certainly possible. I could accept the description if somebody were >> to find some other corroborating evidence. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-PC-XT-Parallel-Port-Card-ISA-Parallel-Printer-Card_W0QQitemZ190173053919QQihZ009QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> >> Interestingly, it was also removed from a 5271. >> >> Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that >> it's a parallel card. Would the 5271 have been capable of using the >> Async Adapter as a host interface? That's the only remaining I/O card >> in the machine. >> >> ok >> bear >> >> > From ed at ed-thelen.org Sun Nov 25 17:31:31 2007 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:31:31 -0800 Subject: Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 References: <200711252153.lAPLrUJ7020121@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <009f01c82fbb$4fb45fb0$0200a8c0@TIGERTV> > From: "B. Degnan" > Subject: Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20071125093356.03328d50 at mail.degnanco.net> > > New York Weekly Messenger 2-13-1833 > Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 > On the back page of this newspaper is an article that describes in some > detail the eye-witness account of a *working* machine: "...the greater part > of the calculating machine is already constructed....I have had the > advantage of seeing it actually calculate, and of studying its construction > with Mr. Babbage himself..." The machine was never completed - long story > Does this account describe a working computer? No - to see more than you ever wanted to know about Babbage Difference Engine #2 see http://www.ed-thelen.org/bab/bab-intro.html > To help make this > determination I would want to learn more about the error checking > capability of this machine, which I assume was used for calculation of > significant digits. Error prevention was the name of the game. Bars and detents prevented motion at wrong times. The machine would jam rather than make a mistake. > A[s] described, Babbage's calculating machine could be > described as "computer-like" at least. I believe that this article reports > the closest Babbage got to a actual working computer. Or just an elaborate > calculator. There are no references in the article to what we today would > identify as punch cards or programming. Fixed program "Calculator" seems a good word. It was basically a seventh order polynomial evaluator. > Download the PDF > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/babbage/charles_babbage_2-13-1833.pdf > ...and read for yourself. The article describes error checking and how > results are viewed and how log tables could be calculated accurately, for > use in astronomy. The article noted that regarding the printer "..less > progress was made...". The second incarnation of the Babbage Difference Engine #2 (the 1st is in the London Science Museum) is now due in spring 2008 on loan to Computer History Museum, Mountain View, CA courtesy of Nathan Myhrvold. Doron Swade is currently Guest Curator :-)) http://www.computerhistory.org/about/staff/swade/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Nov 26 01:52:59 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 02:52:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711260804.DAA07057@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Incidentally, I asked a friend wbo is both a classic computer > enthusiast and a musician if there would he any audible difference > between playing the record at 45rpm and at 45.11 rpm. He said he > didn't believe anyone could tell them apart. I think he's probably wrong. Most people probably can't, at least not without a side-to-side comparison (I could sure hear the beat frequency if listening to 450Hz and 451.1Hz together, but feel sure I could not tell the difference in isolation, likely not even in a non-simultaneous A/B listen). But some of people with better "perfect pitch" (which actually isn't perfect, just substantially more precise than most people's pitch sense) could, I expect, tell you which is which even in isolation. One other thing is that mains frequency may not always be a good 50/60 Hz reference (which will, of course, affect things like the floppy speed calibration that started this thread off, if it's using the power mains as the frequency reference). The power utilities go to some lengths to make sure it averages out to that over periods measured in days, because of all the clocks that depend on it. But in the short term - seconds and minutes - I've read that it can vary slightly (the figure I recall is 1Hz or so) for various reasons, at least one of which is deliberate compensation for the others. :) I'm not sure how plausible this actually is. Given how mains power distribution works, it seems to me that the entire grid must perforce be running at the same frequency, or parts of it will drift in and out of phase with other parts, causing problems at the various points where one utility sells power to another. This means that tweaking the frequency would require grid-wide collaboration, difficult even for grids as small as England's, that much more so for grids like the North American one. Or do they use monster M-G sets or the like to deal with that? :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctech at retro.co.za Mon Nov 26 03:43:08 2007 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:43:08 +0200 Subject: OT : CRT replacement In-Reply-To: <200711252153.lAPLrUJI020121@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071126113536.04d5e0d0@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all Apologies for the off-topic, but I'm pretty sure someone here knows the answer to this one. A friend has a Motorola Communications Analyser model number R 2001 B. The CRT is blown. I don't even know if it's vector or raster, I'd suspect vector? Picture at http://www.econ2way.com/cgi-bin/service_monitor_display.cgi?site-images/MotorolaR2001.gif Any idea where I can scrounge a replacement CRT, anyone? Thanks W From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 26 04:41:52 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:41:52 +0000 Subject: RT-11 docs (was: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available) In-Reply-To: <00b201c82fe1$6f75fe50$6a00a8c0@JWEST> References: <00b201c82fe1$6f75fe50$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <200711261041.52393.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Monday 26 November 2007 04:04:25 Jay West wrote: > I'm not up for going downstairs and writing the titles down just now. But > there's about 13 of them, I'd guess the line of manual binders is perhaps 3 > feet long. Sounds about like mine. Not sure about 13 of them, but IIRC I have volumes 1-5 with some having letters, like 2a, 2b, 2c and so on. More on this when I get home. Gordon From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 26 04:57:41 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:57:41 +0000 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <474A5C97.8050404@oldskool.org> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <474A5C97.8050404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 11:41:43PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > It's the first, so historically it has significance. It's also worth a > bit more money than an A500 or A2000 because of the production run > numbers. Personally, I think it's a bit more stylish than the A500 as well. > It's a bit annoying to operate since you need both a kickstart > disk and then an operating system disk to get to the operating system. For a stock machine, yes. Mine has an add-in board, a "Rejuvinator". It's a kickstart board replacement with ROMs, a Fat Agnus, 1MB of Chip Ram (max of 2MB if you can find the right DRAMs), and 95% of an A2000 video slot. It was a somewhat cheaper way to get A2000 functionality and not obsolete A1000 peripherals - a serious consideration to those of us who had a couple of grand tied up in our machines 20+ years ago (I bought my A1000 new in 1986). > (Some bootable games will only require the kickstart.) I still have a few of those - "The Halley Project" was one of the best games to come out in the A1000-only days. Once AmigaDOS 1.3 came out and people started booting from hard drives, developers started to move away from games that required a reboot to start. > As for any *practical* reasons to operate one, there is some software > (circa 1985-1986) that will *only* run on early versions of kickstart. > Most of the games with this requirement have been patched or otherwise > worked around, but not the commercial applications. I saw plenty of games like that (including ones that were later patched for hard drive installs), but I don't think I owned any commercial stuff that was locked to older versions of Kickstart. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Nov-2007 at 10:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -31.4 F (-35.2 C) Windchill -50.0 F (-45.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.6 kts Grid 299 Barometer 681.8 mb (10560 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 26 05:13:38 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:13:38 +0000 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711261113.38946.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Sunday 25 November 2007 23:08:29 Tony Duell wrote: > > I got my math wrong. The fellow is also wrong. > > 45/60 = .75. > > 100/.75 = 133.333.... > > If rounded to 133, you get 45.11278195---- > > Incidentally, I asked a friend wbo is both a classic computer enthusiast > and a musician if there would he any audible difference between playing > the record at 45rpm and at 45.11 rpm. He said he didn't believe anyone > could tell them apart. So I susepct the only people this matters to are > the audiophools. Well, 45.11/45 is 1.00244.. big string of 4s, according to Python. I can just about hear a one cent difference in tuning (as verified with an elderly digital synthesizer). 1.002 is one fifth of that, a very tiny difference indeed. At middle A, it would take you from 440Hz to 440.88Hz - I can try generating these frequencies later and see if I hear a difference. I might - mixing them would give a beat period of a little over a second - but I doubt it, especially in the context of music rather than pure tones. Probably someone with perfect absolute pitch wouldn't hear it. Gordon From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Nov 26 07:56:02 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:56:02 -0500 Subject: RT-11 docs (was: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available) In-Reply-To: References: <00b201c82fe1$6f75fe50$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <474AD072.6030906@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >At 10:04 PM -0600 11/25/07, Jay West wrote: > >> >Richard wrote.... >> >>> Does anyone know the title of the binders? >> >> I'm not up for going downstairs and writing the titles down just now. >> But there's about 13 of them, I'd guess the line of manual binders is >> perhaps 3 feet long. > Jerome Fine replies: I just measured the length: 2 feet 5 1/2 inches - a very good estimate. Without the binders, just the paper is about half that, but almost all pages are double sided, so the total number of pages to scan is double to number of sheets of paper (obviously). >>> I have a PDP-11/03 w/RT-11 and it included just a few binders, so I >>> didn't think the doc set was that large. >> >> That would not be a complete documentation set. >> >> Jay > > Good grief, that is a lot larger than any doc set I've ever seen for > RT-11. I had V3, V4 (both donated to the Library), and still have > 5.0x (I think 5.04). I'd be interested in knowing the titles as well. I believe that V05.05 had fewer binders since the Software Support Manual had not been split. There were several a/b sets as well. For V05.06: 1. Guide to Documentation / System Release Notes / Master Index 2. Introduction to RT-11 3. Automatic Installation Guide / Installation Guide / System Generation Guide 4. Commands Manual 5a. System Utilities Manual Part I 5b. Systems Utilities manual Part II 6. Keypad Editor User's Guide / IND Control Files Manual 7. System Messages Manual 8. System Macro Library Manual 9. System Subroutine Library Manual 10. Volume and File Formats Manual / System Internals Manual 11. Device Handlers Manual / DBG-11 Symbolic Debugger User's Guide 12. Macro-11 Language Reference Manual Any other questions? Of course, there is NO documentation for the extra files included in the V05.07 binary distribution. And TECO was dropped from the binary distribution after V05.00, so that manual has been dropped as well starting with V05.01 of RT-11. And the layered products are another set of manuals, so a total set of RT-11 DOCs will probably be well over 4 feet. Included would be FORTRAN IV, FORTRAN 77, BASIC, Multi-User Basic, PASCAL and C. Can anyone name any other layered products produced by DEC (I seem to remember that PASCAL was not produced by DEC)? And then there are the DOCs for TSX-PLUS, but less than 6 inches. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 26 08:40:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:40:49 -0600 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting References: <200711261113.38946.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <001a01c8303a$5ed7da60$6500a8c0@BILLING> Kill this thread on record speeds please. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 26 09:36:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:36:20 -0700 Subject: RT-11 docs (was: PDP-11 comm stuff (and more) from a haul available) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:56:02 -0500. <474AD072.6030906@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <474AD072.6030906 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > And the layered products are another set of manuals, so a total set of > RT-11 DOCs will probably be well over 4 feet. Included would be > FORTRAN IV, FORTRAN 77, BASIC, Multi-User Basic, PASCAL > and C. Can anyone name any other layered products produced by DEC > (I seem to remember that PASCAL was not produced by DEC)? DIBOL? My RT-11 machine came with a DIBOL manual (paperback book). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 10:28:46 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:28:46 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <474A5C97.8050404@oldskool.org> <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4affc5e0711260828p4f7217e4w2e57e9778528eb2d@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 26, 2007 5:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 11:41:43PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > > It's the first, so historically it has significance. It's also worth a > > bit more money than an A500 or A2000 because of the production run > > numbers. > > Personally, I think it's a bit more stylish than the A500 as well. Agreed. > > It's a bit annoying to operate since you need both a kickstart > > disk and then an operating system disk to get to the operating system. > > For a stock machine, yes. Mine has an add-in board, a "Rejuvinator". > It's a kickstart board replacement with ROMs, a Fat Agnus, 1MB of Chip > Ram (max of 2MB if you can find the right DRAMs), and 95% of an A2000 > video slot. It was a somewhat cheaper way to get A2000 functionality > and not obsolete A1000 peripherals - a serious consideration to those > of us who had a couple of grand tied up in our machines 20+ years ago > (I bought my A1000 new in 1986). I bought my A1000 in (IIRC) 1989, upgrading from my C64. I still have it, and I just booted it up a few weeks ago. The original mouse is unfortunately broken (some of the little plastic bits inside are worn out) but other than that it's in good working condition. > > (Some bootable games will only require the kickstart.) > > I still have a few of those - "The Halley Project" was one of the best > games to come out in the A1000-only days. Once AmigaDOS 1.3 came out > and people started booting from hard drives, developers started to move > away from games that required a reboot to start. Here is what used to be my booting preocedure - no longer possible, unfortunately - but it involved 1) turn machine on with Kickstart disk (patched with antivirus) 2) fiddle with the (20M) harddrive to make it spin up. The (MFM) HD was sitting outside on top of the sidecar, (since I wanted to keep using the 5 1/4 drive in the sidecar) with the ribbon cables and power just squeezing out the side. 3) Boot with my custom Workbench disk, that would load the Janus software, then alias almost everything over to directories on the hard drive. Unfortunately, the Sidecar has not survived the long years. It still sort of works but does not boot up properly anymore, the floppy drive shows a solid LED. I still have the full length MFM controller card and the HD. The A1000 is also the first computer I modded in a major way: upgrading to 1meg ("slow", bit not chip) ram. The A1000 had 256k on the motherboard, and everyone had the 256k expansion in the front slot - the extra 512k ram were added by piggybacking 2 chips onto each of the motherboards ram chips (can't remember if there were 8 or 16) and a mess of wires to hook up the correct chip selects. (This really is the part that amazes me it still works!) It's "slow" ram since it was still slowed down to the chip ram speeds, but could not be accessed by Gary and Denise (?). I should open the thing up and take some pictures. But I remember even opening the thing was a tricky affair, due to the RF shielding... Why was the A1000 better than the A500? Well, there was the sidecar, of course, but I also like the feel of the (detachable) keyboard of the A1000 to the A500 one. Joe. Anyone with a spare sidecar and original A1000 mouse in the Montreal area, feel free to contact me :-) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 26 10:29:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:29:03 -0800 Subject: PCKeybaord keytops Message-ID: <474A83CF.8677.521AA153@cclist.sydex.com> Last week, someone pointed me to Ergonomics Resources a source for decent PC keyboards, such as their version of the old Northgate unit. I voiced a concern about a pet peeve of mine--that the keytops would be the everyday surface-marked ones, rather than the old double-shot ones (which have legends that are almost impossible to wear away). Here's the response I received: "Thanks you for visiting our web site. The Stellar is in most ways like the Northgate keyboard you used many years ago. But they too have gone the way of Laser engraved key tops." "We do still have some (new in the box) Northgate Evolution Keyboards (split keyboards) that have the double injected keycaps if you're interested. " http://www.ergonomicsmadeeasy.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID =12 I guess I'll stick with my Model M. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 11:32:17 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:32:17 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711261232.17644.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 19:05, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > > > I notice that even those guys that are building relay computers "cheat" > > and use a single small solid-state chip for RAM. :-) > > Hi > I've been thinking about how one could make a reasonable > memory, using small reed relays. If one puts a magnet close > to one end, it will cause the reed to close. Move it back > some and it will hold until the field is too weak. > If one set the magnet someplace in the middle of this > band, one could use the direction of current through the > coil to set and reset the contacts. > One could create an array of these for the memory. Placing > small magnets in opposite directions for adjacent bits would > keep from building too high a field buildup, in the array. > I was thinking that one could use small round magnets > glued to the end of a threaded rod. This could then be adjusted > to optimize the memory. > Now all I need is a pile of reed relays. > Dwight Dunno if they still sell them or not, but Radio Shack used to sell a pack of 20 reed switches for only a couple of bucks... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 11:35:03 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:35:03 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <861828.41765.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <861828.41765.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711261235.03660.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 19:10, Chris M wrote: > --- Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > This reminds me of folks I used to run into back > > > > in the day that considered > > > > > themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > > > > or RPG, > > or SQL > > RPG aint' a real language? I have a couple of *recent* books on RPG stashed > away someplace if anyone is interested. 1 or both might still be in the > shrinkwrap. One had to do with *subfile* programming, whatever that is. I don't have a clue, never having studied it. Feel free to send the books my way and I'll read 'em and see... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 11:41:16 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:41:16 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <01C82E21.F8184E00@MSE_D03> References: <01C82E21.F8184E00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200711261241.16509.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 22:40, M H Stein wrote: > --------------Original Messages: > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:58:17 -0500 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers... > > On Thursday 22 November 2007 18:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Good point. There is the concept of "depth" of understanding. Many > > people who regard themselves as programming professionals would be > > lost without an operating system. Some would be lost without an > > assembler. And, sad to say, some would be lost without some sort of > > Java facility. > > This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that considered > themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > > > For some, that's not sufficient. Understanding how a disk drive > > works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is essential to them. > > Some of us actually enjoy that sort of thing and some just want to be able > to use the end result, or maybe tweak it a bit. > > ------------Reply: > > Well, you've just insulted several thousand professional dBase programmers, > myself included, with your elitist snobbery. I would guess that a competent > dBase programmer would probably have the average small database program > completed and delivered in the time it would take just to lay out, code and > debug the necessary file- and screen-handling routines in most of the other > comparable languages of the day, at least until you'd built up a decent and > relevant library. I would tend to assume that having those libraries on hand ahead of time would be a prerequisite to trying to do that sort of an application. I know that when I worked on some of that stuff I spent an awful lot of time trying to get that part right. > Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it better; in my opinion > taking advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you > more professional, not less. No argument there. My comment wasn't directed at the "professionals" you refer to above, but to some of the folks that tended to use the "conversational" aspects of that software to get things done. A fair amount of it that I encountered was truly awful. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 11:43:40 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:43:40 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711261243.41021.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 22:01, Chris M wrote: > The 64 has the weirdest video memory layout you could ask for (afaik), and > the books aren't always cheap (eBay). A few of them are a necessity. I went > looking for some and was astounded at the prices they were getting. Maybe > that's died off. If you can find someone with a whole cache of stuff, you'd > luck out. Hm, I do have some books and magazines that deal with the 64. I wonder what box they're in? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 11:47:15 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:47:15 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474728B6.30147.44FED1D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <474763F6.9090300@jetnet.ab.ca> <474728B6.30147.44FED1D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200711261247.15898.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 22:23, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Nov 2007 at 16:36, woodelf wrote: > > Could CORE be developed to just use relay switching speeds and logic? > > Zuse's mechanical memory is a marvel. > > > > > http://www.epemag.com/zuse/part6a.htm > > There are many kinds of mechanical memory. In particular, I recall > an early TTY device that used a large rotating drum with cams > embedded in the surface. One could flip a cam one way or the other > and then read them out. I'm trying to remember what sort of machine > this was used on and its application, but my memory sadly fails me. This stirs a vague recollection of an old mechanical adding machine I once had, the kind that had a big rectangular array of buttons instead of just a "10-key" set of numbers. I have *no* idea how it stored a number in there, though. Going back even earlier, I had the occasional chance to play with some mechanical calculators. These were about the size of an old typewriter, and there were a couple of different sets of readouts that consisted of digits that showed through small windows on the front of the machine. It had a "carriage" of sorts that would shift back and forth at times, though my fuzzy recollection isn't clear on when it did that. And when you told it to multiply, it'd really take off! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 11:49:31 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:49:31 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071122112947.GB14082@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <200711231258.17875.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071123145023.M99016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200711261249.31677.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 17:50, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that > > considered themselves "programmers" -- in dbase! > > or RPG, I know nothing about RPG, though I knew of one place, a couple of decades back, that actually did still have some use for it. And I recall seeing some classifieds looking for those skills from time to time, though I couldn't say that any of those were recent. I expect that it's still out there... > or SQL That's a whole 'nother thing entirely, I'd say. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 11:58:12 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:58:12 -0500 Subject: Documentation for the AT&T Sceptre Videotex terminal In-Reply-To: <1195899706.6473.4.camel@elric.inet> References: <200711231212.45877.rtellason@verizon.net> <1195899706.6473.4.camel@elric.inet> Message-ID: <200711261258.16471.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 24 November 2007 05:21, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:12 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > It isn't just the logo on the keys, though. It's the addition of > > those "extra" keys to the bottom row, and the consequent resizing of the > > existing alt and ctrl keys to allow them to fit, that's part of what's > > messing me up with those keyboards... > > Am I being particularly dense here? I don't really see the problem. If > the Windows key is where you expect the ALT key to be, just remap it... On this IBM keyboard I'm typing on now, there are two keys to either side of the spacebar. I can find one or the other of ctrl or alt by feel, no problem. On the "windows" style keyboard I have plugged into another machine here, there are three keys to the left of the spacebar and four to the right. I can't find those by feel, have to stop and look at what I'm hitting, and it slows me down. The positioning is changed, too, which also impacts my typing speed. Somewhere I have another IBM keyboard, and once I find it in the mess here I'll be using that one on that other box as well. The quality of that windows keyboard is lousy, anyway -- having to hit keys especially hard to get them to work, and similar nonsense is also slowing me down when using that machine. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 12:11:46 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:11:46 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 24 November 2007 12:39, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > > > > > Speaking of which, I have a vague recollection of "Tiny BASIC". Never did > > actually use it, though. Any of you guys familiar with it? Is it all that > > usable? At all extensible? I can see where it might be handy for some > > stuff... > > Hi > A search on the web will show a couple of listing of a version of Palo > Alto Tiny BASIC that I posted years ago. It was slighly modified from the > original to allow on to expand it. It had I/O for the Poly88 but it could > be easily connected to any serial streams terminal. > It fit in 2 2708s which was great for the Poly88. Which works out just fine for the 2716s being the smallest part my programmer can handle. :-) > I wrote 3 extentions that I used. These could be loaded on the fly from the > cassette tape, with the BASIC program that that used them. I added PEEK, > POKE and SAVE. PEEK and POKE were useful with the Poly88's video. SAVE made > it simple to save any new programs that also need these extras. The bad part > was that the extended code had to be done in assembly code and required a > reasonable understanding of how Tiny BASIC worked inside. I guess that could be expected. > If one wanted to work with an extensible language, Forth is the most > flexible. It is also one of the best for understanding more complex > programming concepts. It isn't that it has them built in, it is that it > contains all the building blocks needed to create them. Forth is definitely one of the other things that I'm looking at, but it's style is rather putting me off. I have a 68HC11-based board that comes up in it, and should probably hook it up and play with it one of these days, or get an emulator going, or something, just to try and get a handle on it. If you know of any online resources for that language I'd sure like to hear about them. I did snag two of Leo Brodie's books, for starters, but not a whole lot else. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ray at arachelian.com Mon Nov 26 12:15:02 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:15:02 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <200711261232.17644.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200711261232.17644.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474B0D26.6040308@arachelian.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 23 November 2007 19:05, dwight elvey wrote: > >>> From: rtellason at verizon.net >>> >>> I notice that even those guys that are building relay computers "cheat" >>> and use a single small solid-state chip for RAM. :-) >>> >> Hi >> I've been thinking about how one could make a reasonable >> memory, using small reed relays. If one puts a magnet close >> to one end, it will cause the reed to close. Move it back >> some and it will hold until the field is too weak. >> .. > > Dunno if they still sell them or not, but Radio Shack used to sell a pack of > 20 reed switches for only a couple of bucks... > > Hmm... Wonder if it's possible to build a relay without a spring on the switch. That is, you have to send current with one polarity to set the switch to a 1 and reverse polarity to set a zero - sort of what core memory does with rings... I suppose this could instead be done by attaching a magnet to the switch, or using magnet as the thing inside the switch body, or better yet maybe a relay with a ball with a set of contacts as the switch and two magnets, one on each opposite side... you'd energize one coil for a "1" and the other for a "0" Hmm, could even be done with a solenoid and use the mechanical part of it to touch a wire for output. :-) Wouldn't really be a relay, but pretty close. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 26 12:10:25 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:10:25 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474B0C11.8040304@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/11/2007 00:10, Tony Duell wrote: > And I wish I could still buy the raw 'rainbow' cable. Maplin (who used to > sell it by the foot) have stopped doing it, and I really can't afford a > 30m rell from the likes of RS components. Certainly not in all thw widths > I would use. That's why I buy the 10-way stuff and glue it into multiples of 10 with PVC adhesive :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Nov 26 12:25:20 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:25:20 -0500 Subject: OT : CRT replacement Message-ID: <01C83030.026695A0@mandr71> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:43:08 +0200 From: Wouter Subject: OT : CRT replacement >A friend has a Motorola Communications Analyser model number R 2001 B. The >CRT is blown. >I don't even know if it's vector or raster, I'd suspect vector? >Picture at >http://www.econ2way.com/cgi-bin/service_monitor_display.cgi?site-images/MotorolaR2001.gif >Any idea where I can scrounge a replacement CRT, anyone? >Thanks >W -------------------- If your friend is sure it's the CRT he/she must have had it apart; what's the number, size, etc.? m From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 26 12:26:49 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:26:49 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474B0D26.6040308@arachelian.com> References: <200711261232.17644.rtellason@verizon.net> <474B0D26.6040308@arachelian.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:15:02 -0500> From: ray at arachelian.com> To: > Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's> > Roy J. Tellason wrote:> > On Friday 23 November 2007 19:05, dwight elvey wrote:> > > >>> From: rtellason at verizon.net> >>>> >>> I notice that even those guys that are building relay computers "cheat"> >>> and use a single small solid-state chip for RAM. :-)> >>> > >> Hi> >> I've been thinking about how one could make a reasonable> >> memory, using small reed relays. If one puts a magnet close> >> to one end, it will cause the reed to close. Move it back> >> some and it will hold until the field is too weak.> >> > ..> >> > Dunno if they still sell them or not, but Radio Shack used to sell a pack of > > 20 reed switches for only a couple of bucks...> >> > > > Hmm... Wonder if it's possible to build a relay without a spring on the > switch. That is, you have to send current with one polarity to set the > switch to a 1 and reverse polarity to set a zero - sort of what core > memory does with rings... I suppose this could instead be done by > attaching a magnet to the switch, or using magnet as the thing inside > the switch body, or better yet maybe a relay with a ball with a set of > contacts as the switch and two magnets, one on each opposite side... > you'd energize one coil for a "1" and the other for a "0" > > Hmm, could even be done with a solenoid and use the mechanical part of > it to touch a wire for output. :-) Wouldn't really be a relay, but > pretty close.> > Teledyne makes a 'non volitale' relay. its tradename is Maglatch. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 26 12:38:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:38:10 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <200711261247.15898.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <474728B6.30147.44FED1D5@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711261247.15898.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474AA212.32191.5290D6CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2007 at 12:47, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > This stirs a vague recollection of an old mechanical adding machine I once > had, the kind that had a big rectangular array of buttons instead of just > a "10-key" set of numbers. I have *no* idea how it stored a number in there, > though. My recollection of this device was that a drum with cams was used to store a message that could then be sent later. I don't recall if this was an attempt to provide buffering for typeahead--it's very easy for a touch typist to type faster than the old TTY machines could send--or just a way to record a message for later sending. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 12:42:36 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:42:36 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071125043113.GA30034@usap.gov> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> <20071125043113.GA30034@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200711261342.36338.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 24 November 2007 23:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The User Port on all the C= machines is more-or-less the same... 12x2 > 0.154" edge connectors. I thought those were 0.156"? I'm trying to remember what all edge connectors used to be common. I'm thinking that 0.1", 0.125", and 0.156" were some of the more common sizes of connector finger out there. And how many pins? Seemed to me there was an awful lot of stuff out there that used 22/44 pins of 0.156" spacing. I'm wondering what other ones might have been especially common. On that subject I note that the BBII I mentioned a bit ago has a space in the board for an STD bus connector, and am wondering how practical it might be to instead put some sort of an expansion box connection in there, the one other time I brought that up opinions were pretty doubtful, citing bus buffer propagation delays. That board maps the second byte of RAM out on that bus, and it'd be nice to be able to add some I/O out there too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 26 12:50:58 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:50:58 -0600 Subject: Now: Commodore machines Re: Teaching kids about computers... References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com><4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> <20071125043113.GA30034@usap.gov> <200711261342.36338.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003401c8305d$48539c70$6500a8c0@BILLING> Re below: This is good on-topic stuff regarding C64 boxes... but perhaps the subject line could be changed so that people in the future can find this type of information more easily? Thanks! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" + > On Saturday 24 November 2007 23:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> The User Port on all the C= machines is more-or-less the same... 12x2 From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 12:48:30 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:48:30 -0500 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> References: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <200711261348.30665.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 25 November 2007 02:29, r.stricklin wrote: > I am restoring a ca. 1985 IBM 5271---the so-called 3270 PC. I > received it intact, with a full complement of cards, cables, etc. It > looks very much like it was shut down, removed from its original > office installation, and then apparently left somewhere the squirrels > could get to it (thus, "restoring"). I've vacuumed about forty pounds > of sunflower seed hulls out of it. Blessedly, I haven't found any > other signs of animal inhabitation. This reminds me of the Kaypro I was brought once that had been used in a barn. I must've pulled ten pounds of straw out of it, which would tend to explain the disk errors they were getting... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 13:10:19 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:10:19 -0500 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <474712E0.6050707@flippers.com> References: <01C77210.ED942260@MSE_D03> <474712E0.6050707@flippers.com> Message-ID: <200711261410.19298.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 November 2007 12:50, John Robertson wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > > I have a programmer designed by Steve Ciarcia from BYTE - It uses an > > 8051AH-Basic (The 8051 with basic embedded) as the controller - and > > still works a treat - to this day. - Standalone board, interface via > > serial. It was fun to see peoples faces when you shipped a ^C down the > > serial line, and dropped through to a READY prompt. I have one of those too. And then you could type LIST and get a listing of what was in there. But I never did make much sense out of what I saw then... Since those days, I've collected a bit of info on that chip off the 'net, though I haven't digested it yet. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 13:21:54 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:21:54 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <005b01c82fc2$f06bd9e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <005b01c82fc2$f06bd9e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200711261421.55018.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 25 November 2007 19:26, Ensor wrote: > Also, full schematic diagrams for the machine were included in the > "Programmer's Reference Guide". For one version of it, yeah. There were at least four different versions of the boards out there, I'd have to check the manual to be absolutely sure of the count. And there were some significant differences in some areas, as well as some production changes. One thing I saw from time to time was some diodes added to either the serial bus or the user port to protect chips, but *never* to the joystick ports, where they were most needed -- the design of that silly thing was such that you'd tend to hit the pins on those joystick connectors while reaching for the power switch, and we replaced a lot of 6526 chips for that reason. A fix for that was to jam a very thin slice of black foam into the connectors, which was fine for joysticks, though some other peripherals got upset by this and you'd have to take it out to make it work properly. One area where the boards differed very much was in the video section. Earlier units used several TTL parts for the clocks, later ones went to a gate array. Another was RAM, the later boards used two 64Kx4 parts instead of eight 64Kx1, and the very latest ones I saw combined two of the ROMs (Kernel and BASIC?) into one single chip. Not that any of this mattered much from the programming perspective, I guess. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 26 13:32:07 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:32:07 -0600 Subject: RT-11 docs BOM References: <00b201c82fe1$6f75fe50$6a00a8c0@JWEST> <474AD072.6030906@compsys.to> Message-ID: <007501c83063$081887a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote.... >> Good grief, that is a lot larger than any doc set I've ever seen for >> RT-11. I had V3, V4 (both donated to the Library), and still have 5.0x >> (I think 5.04). I'd be interested in knowing the titles as well. Ok, I took the time to look up the specifics for my own set. The set is for RT-11 v5.0, and is dated March 1983. These DEC-badged orange manuals have a DEC-made printed insert on the spine with labled number/letter pairs and a list of what manuals are in that binder. Each "title" in the binder is in fact a separate manual. Note that none of these document "options", they are all manuals covering the base system with the exception of the BASIC & Fortran IV manuals. The entire set is 28.5 inches long with the two optional manuals, or 23 inches long without those two. Also, reading the "Guide to Documentation" gives me the impression that this is the normal set sent out with RT-11 at the time and not just an "expanded set". I could be wrong. Binder 1A Guide to Documentation System Release Notes Introduction to RT-11 Binder 1B Installation Guide Binder 1C System Generation Guide Binder 2A System Users Guide Binder 2B System Utilities Guide Binder 2C System Messages Manual Master Index Binder 2D Keypad Editor Users Guide TECO Users Guide Binder 3A Programmers Reference Manual Macro-11 Language Reference Manual Binder 3B Software Support Manual I'd hate to try running an RT-11 system with just a subset of the above manuals, I don't see any that would be "ok I can do without that" - but that's a fairly subjective statement on my part. According to the Guide to Documentation, also included in the above set (I have all the following too) is an RT-11 Automatic Installation Booklet, an RT-11 Mini Reference Manual (mine is in a short mini orange binder too), and a paperback book titled "Intro to BASIC" (not to be confused with the DEC manual). In addition, in binder 2D is included the TECO Pocket Guide and the PDP-11 Keypad Editor Reference Card. Then I have two optional manuals also in DEC orange binders with DEC-printed labels on the spine as follows: In one binder (no label at the top of the spine other than "RT-11 v5.0") BASIC-11/RT-11 Installation Guide & Release Notes BASIC-11/RT-11 User's Guide BASIC-11 Language Reference Manual In another binder labled "RT-11 Fortran IV" Language Reference Manual User's Guide Installation Guide & Release Notes Hope that helps! Jay West From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 13:33:36 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:33:36 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: <474B0D26.6040308@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200711261433.36759.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 26 November 2007 13:26, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:15:02 -0500> From: ray at arachelian.com> To: > > > Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's> > Roy J. Tellason wrote:> > On Friday 23 > > November 2007 19:05, dwight elvey wrote:> > > >>> From: > > rtellason at verizon.net> >>>> >>> I notice that even those guys that are > > building relay computers "cheat"> >>> and use a single small solid-state > > chip for RAM. :-)> >>> > >> Hi> >> I've been thinking about how one could > > make a reasonable> >> memory, using small reed relays. If one puts a > > magnet close> >> to one end, it will cause the reed to close. Move it > > back> >> some and it will hold until the field is too weak.> >> > ..> >> > > > Dunno if they still sell them or not, but Radio Shack used to sell a > > pack of > > 20 reed switches for only a couple of bucks...> >> > > > > > Hmm... Wonder if it's possible to build a relay without a spring on the > > > switch. That is, you have to send current with one polarity to set the > > > switch to a 1 and reverse polarity to set a zero - sort of what core > > > memory does with rings... I suppose this could instead be done by > > > attaching a magnet to the switch, or using magnet as the thing inside > > > the switch body, or better yet maybe a relay with a ball with a set of > > > contacts as the switch and two magnets, one on each opposite side... > > > you'd energize one coil for a "1" and the other for a "0" > > Hmm, could > > even be done with a solenoid and use the mechanical part of > it to touch > > a wire for output. :-) Wouldn't really be a relay, but > pretty close.> > Ack! :-) > Teledyne makes a 'non volitale' relay. its tradename is Maglatch. They did some pretty impressive stuff. I had some one time that were in an 8-leaded TO-5 Can, DPDT with a transistor driver and diode in there with it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 26 13:38:47 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:38:47 -0500 Subject: PCKeybaord keytops References: <474A83CF.8677.521AA153@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002f01c83063$f6d0be30$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:29 AM Subject: Re: PCKeybaord keytops > Last week, someone pointed me to Ergonomics Resources a source for > decent PC keyboards, such as their version of the old Northgate unit. > > I voiced a concern about a pet peeve of mine--that the keytops would > be the everyday surface-marked ones, rather than the old double-shot > ones (which have legends that are almost impossible to wear away). > > Here's the response I received: > > "Thanks you for visiting our web site. The Stellar is in most ways > like the Northgate keyboard you used many years ago. But they too > have gone the way of Laser engraved key tops." > > "We do still have some (new in the box) Northgate Evolution Keyboards > (split keyboards) that have the double injected keycaps if you're > interested. " > > http://www.ergonomicsmadeeasy.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID > =12 > > I guess I'll stick with my Model M. > > Cheers, > Chuck Oh well, you could buy a broken Northgate keyboard and use those caps on a new base. I like my Omnikey/102 keyboard, I had purchased a gateway USB keyboard around 2000 for my main machine but after a while I switched back to the Northgate again. This keyboard has been used almost continuously since I purchased it new in 1992 or so and have yet to need a repair (just a cleaning every so many years). >From what I remember the push to make computers cheaper in the 90's started with cheaper quality floppy drives, keyboards, and mice. Then they moved on to computer cases, power supplies, monitors, etc. Atleast those are the items I noticed getting made cheaply at the time. TZ From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 26 13:37:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:37:57 -0500 Subject: IBM 4019 Laser Printer Message-ID: <200711261437.57547.rtellason@verizon.net> I have one of these, and it seems to be a real workhorse, as is evidenced by the status page it kicks out on powerup, which lists somewhere close to a quarter million pages having been printed out... That status page is a part of the problem. When I got it I was told that "a postscript board" was in it, and it indeed does seem to speak postscript just fine, but as long as I have that emulation enabled (as opposed to LJ or whatever, I think there were three or four choices altogether) it kicks out that page every single time you power it up. Is there any way to defeat this? Also, since I switched to using this LJ5 I acquired fairly recently, on pulling the paper out of the IBM it seems that a roller that sits on the top of the stack of paper is in the process of turning to goo, like those capstan rollers I see mentioned in here from time to time. Is there a rebuild kit or are replacement parts for this thing available out there anywhere? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 26 13:46:17 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:46:17 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's References: , <474728B6.30147.44FED1D5@cclist.sydex.com>, <200711261247.15898.rtellason@verizon.net> <474AA212.32191.5290D6CE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <474B2289.6EFF7342@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 26 Nov 2007 at 12:47, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > This stirs a vague recollection of an old mechanical adding machine I once > > had, the kind that had a big rectangular array of buttons instead of just > > a "10-key" set of numbers. I have *no* idea how it stored a number in there, > > though. > > My recollection of this device was that a drum with cams was used to > store a message that could then be sent later. I don't recall if > this was an attempt to provide buffering for typeahead--it's very > easy for a touch typist to type faster than the old TTY machines > could send--or just a way to record a message for later sending. What about the "Who are you" id message used on some teletype networks, so one could confirm that you were talking to the desired recipient terminal? I believe the ASCII control code 'ENQuiry' was originally intended for eliciting that message. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 26 13:46:30 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:46:30 -0600 Subject: Now: Commodore machines Re: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <003401c8305d$48539c70$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com><4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> <20071125043113.GA30034@usap.gov> <200711261342.36338.rtellason@verizon.net> <003401c8305d$48539c70$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <474B2296.8080600@jbrain.com> I think the C64 and/or VIC-20 are great machines to teach a kid with, for the following reasons: * Yes, BASIC 2.0 is minimal, but you can get a lot of mileage out of the base language, without overwhelming the child with DLOAD and SPRITE and such. * No need to open the case to get at expansion options * Cool games to entice the child (see what this PC will do, it just takes time and education) * The user port has predecoded and prevalidated I/O. (However, I would put a 74LS something on the CIA/VIA I/O as a buffer as kids are kids) * If the child trends toward shiny-ness, the C64 graphics are very impressive, even for a 20+ year old machine. * If the child is younger, the big text on the VIC might be welcome. But, perhaps the best reasons: * With 14-17 million 64s and 5 million VICs, they are dirt cheap and easy to replace. Kids are kids, and they will at some point wish to try their hand at making the unit do things via paperclip, or other potentially destructive tests. If a VIC or 64 dies, just pull another one out and move on. I'm not implying we should encourage children to trach the machine, but I know many adults are afraid of computers simply because they are worried they will break it. I don't want my child to be held back from learning all there is to know by that concern. I trashed more than a handful of CIAs on my primary 64 in the day, and my son will too. Regardless of machine type, I think external access to some IO, an always available BASIC interpreter, being cheap enough to have a spare and not care if the kids trashes one, and reasonable graphics and sound are major requirements. I'm not so sure about Apple IIs and TIs, but Atari's 8-bit line might have the same advantages. TRS-80 Cocos might as well, but they were a niche player in these parts, so the units might be more rare. I can;t think of other options, but I am sure they exist. I would agree the 64 memory map is strange indeed, and maybe Atari and others had more sanity in that arena. Still, being able to swap out almost all the ROMs and get to 63kB of RAM or SWAP out all the ROMs and replace with external ones from the cart port is a neat trick. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 26 13:52:41 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:52:41 -0600 Subject: Commodores (Was: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <200711261243.41021.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711261243.41021.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474B2409.3020801@jbrain.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 23 November 2007 22:01, Chris M wrote: > >> The 64 has the weirdest video memory layout you could ask for (afaik), and >> the books aren't always cheap (eBay). A few of them are a necessity. I went >> looking for some and was astounded at the prices they were getting. Maybe >> that's died off. If you can find someone with a whole cache of stuff, you'd >> luck out. >> Lots of the books are now online at Project64, so depending on your view of orphaned data, you can print reference materials out. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 26 15:06:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:06:39 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474B2289.6EFF7342@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <474B2289.6EFF7342@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <474AC4DF.15311.5318C746@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2007 at 11:46, Brent Hilpert wrote: > What about the "Who are you" id message used on some teletype networks, so one could > confirm that you were talking to the desired recipient terminal? I believe the > ASCII control code 'ENQuiry' was originally intended for eliciting that message. Wasn't that just a perforated tape loop? Cheers, Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 26 15:42:48 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:42:48 -0800 Subject: TTY answerback (was: Re: *updating* 8088's) In-Reply-To: <474AC4DF.15311.5318C746@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <474B2289.6EFF7342@cs.ubc.ca> <474AC4DF.15311.5318C746@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <474B3DD8.4050909@mainecoon.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Nov 2007 at 11:46, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> What about the "Who are you" id message used on some teletype networks, so one could >> confirm that you were talking to the desired recipient terminal? I believe the >> ASCII control code 'ENQuiry' was originally intended for eliciting that message. > > Wasn't that just a perforated tape loop? As I recall on the model 33 family it was the so-called answerback drum, which was a drum of tabs with tabs snapped off for the relevant bit positions. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 26 16:00:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:00:29 -0800 Subject: TTY answerback (was: Re: *updating* 8088's) In-Reply-To: <474B3DD8.4050909@mainecoon.com> References: , <474AC4DF.15311.5318C746@cclist.sydex.com>, <474B3DD8.4050909@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <474AD17D.22265.534A1284@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2007 at 13:42, Chris Kennedy wrote: > As I recall on the model 33 family it was the so-called answerback drum, > which was a drum of tabs with tabs snapped off for the relevant bit > positions. That would make it a read-only memory, as would paper tape. What I recall is much larger and was read-write. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 26 17:21:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:21:08 +0000 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0711260828p4f7217e4w2e57e9778528eb2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <474A5C97.8050404@oldskool.org> <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> <4affc5e0711260828p4f7217e4w2e57e9778528eb2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071126232108.GA20850@usap.gov> On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 11:28:46AM -0500, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Nov 26, 2007 5:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I bought my A1000 in (IIRC) 1989, upgrading from my C64. I still have > it, and I just booted it up a few weeks ago. The original mouse is > unfortunately broken (some of the little plastic bits inside are worn > out) but other than that it's in good working condition. You might be able to get away with scavenging plastic bits from the right model of A500/A2000 mouse - the difference being that you will probably want to keep your A1000 cable for the right-angle DE-9. > Here is what used to be my booting preocedure - no longer possible, > unfortunately - but it involved 1) turn machine on with Kickstart disk > (patched with antivirus) 2) fiddle with the (20M) harddrive to make it > spin up. The (MFM) HD was sitting outside on top of the sidecar, > (since I wanted to keep using the 5 1/4 drive in the sidecar) with the > ribbon cables and power just squeezing out the side. 3) Boot with my > custom Workbench disk, that would load the Janus software, then alias > almost everything over to directories on the hard drive. Wow... that's elaborate. My first hard drive was on a "Wedge" - a Canadian product that mapped an 8-bit path to an ISA port, and an MFM or RLL controller (like a DTC-5150 or DTC-5160). You booted a workbench floppy which had the Wedge hard disk driver and enough of a startup script to transfer to directories on the hard drive. Mine was a little like yours, except for no MS-DOS machine in the middle. Later, I replaced that Wedge with a Starboard (memory) and a Stardrive (SCSI daughter card on the Starboard). I ran that configuration for a number of years. > Unfortunately, the Sidecar has not survived the long years. It still > sort of works but does not boot up properly anymore, the floppy drive > shows a solid LED. I still have the full length MFM controller card > and the HD. That should be diagnosable. You might be able to stick a video card in the Sidecar rather than depend on the Janus libs for mapped video, and see what it's trying to do. > The A1000 is also the first computer I modded in a major way: > upgrading to 1meg ("slow", bit not chip) ram. The A1000 had 256k on > the motherboard, and everyone had the 256k expansion in the front slot I didn't for months... I got my A1000 then found a cheap 3rd-party "front nose" 256K expansion - by Skyles, IIRC - six months later. > - the extra 512k ram were added by piggybacking 2 chips onto each of > the motherboards ram chips (can't remember if there were 8 or 16) and > a mess of wires to hook up the correct chip selects. (This really is > the part that amazes me it still works!) There should have been 8 64Kx4 DRAMs on the motherboard and another 8 on the expansion card. It's by far from the only example of memory doubling by piggyback. I didn't try that particular hack, partially because 64Kx4 chips were harder to find than 256Kx1 at the time. My first memory expansion was a Sprit Inboard. It held 1.5M of 256Kx1 chips, which at the time soared from $3.50 to $17.50 *per chip* due to anti-dumping tariffs and the resultant market roiling. There was lots of demand for 256Kx1 chips for DOS machines and Amiga owners got taken on the same ride. Fortunately for me, we discarded an engineering prototype at work (with piggybacked 256Kx1 memory, BTW) and I scavenged a handful of 50256 chips that the company had previously paid $80 *per chip* for sometime around 1984-1985, IIRC. I think those chips are still in my Inboard. > It's "slow" ram since it was still slowed down to the chip ram speeds, > but could not be accessed by Gary and Denise (?). No Gary in an A1000... Gary appeared first in the A500 and A2000. The A1000 had Agnus, Paula and Denise (though I recall one name being different in the way-back-earliest days of the Amiga). > I should open the thing up and take some pictures. But I remember even > opening the thing was a tricky affair, due to the RF shielding... Indeed. I remember that, too. I also remember needing the shielding because when I had the cover off, you could see what was happening with the Amiga on our TV downstairs when it was tuned to channel 3. > Why was the A1000 better than the A500? Well, there was the sidecar, > of course, but I also like the feel of the (detachable) keyboard of > the A1000 to the A500 one. I loved the keyboard dock. It's a shame that feature never caught on. > Anyone with a spare sidecar and original A1000 mouse in the Montreal > area, feel free to contact me :-) Sorry... not anywhere close to Montreal, even when I'm home, and I've never owned a Sidecar. As for a mouse, try opening up an A500/A2000 mouse or two to see if you could transplant the cable. The actual mouse innards are simple - it transmits raw quadrature plus the 2 buttons over the DE9 - all the work is done in the Amiga, unlike a "modern" PC mouse (but very much like an old Microsoft "bus mouse"). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Nov-2007 at 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -24.3 F (-31.3 C) Windchill -41.6 F (-40.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.6 kts Grid 0 Barometer 681.8 mb (10560 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 26 17:28:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:28:50 +0000 Subject: Edge connectors (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <200711261342.36338.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> <20071125043113.GA30034@usap.gov> <200711261342.36338.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071126232850.GB20850@usap.gov> On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 01:42:36PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 24 November 2007 23:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The User Port on all the C= machines is more-or-less the same... 12x2 > > 0.154" edge connectors. > > I thought those were 0.156"? Oops... my fingers were probably thinking 25.4mm to the inch when I mistyped the 4. > I'm trying to remember what all edge connectors used to be common. I'm > thinking that 0.1", 0.125", and 0.156" were some of the more common sizes > of connector finger out there. Those all sound common. > And how many pins? Various ones... For the C= line, 6/12 and 12/24 were common (cassette port, User Port, IEEE-488), but the VIC-20 had a 22/44 @ 0.156" expansion connector. The C-64 was much smaller, but I can't reliably recall the numbers off the top of my head, so I won't guess. > Seemed to me there was an > awful lot of stuff out there that used 22/44 pins of 0.156" spacing. Very common. My COSMAC VIP has a pair of those (one for memory, one for I/O expansion), and there was a standard RCA CPU board that used it as its off-board bus connector. There was the STD bus, and I'm sure many more examples from the 1970s and 1980s. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Nov-2007 at 23:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -25.6 F (-32.0 C) Windchill -46.6 F (-43.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.9 kts Grid 358 Barometer 681.7 mb (10564 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 26 17:35:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:35:00 +0000 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474AC4DF.15311.5318C746@cclist.sydex.com> References: <474B2289.6EFF7342@cs.ubc.ca> <474AC4DF.15311.5318C746@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071126233500.GD20850@usap.gov> On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 01:06:39PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Nov 2007 at 11:46, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > What about the "Who are you" id message used on some teletype networks, so one could > > confirm that you were talking to the desired recipient terminal? I believe the > > ASCII control code 'ENQuiry' was originally intended for eliciting that message. > > Wasn't that just a perforated tape loop? Not in my ASR-33 - it's a "finned drum" - you break off the tabs to turn ones to zeroes (or the other way 'round?) and when the terminal receives the ENQ from the host, it spins the drums which "types" back the reply. I forget how many character positions it has, but it's on the order of 12 to 16. Mine are both intact. I might consider encoding one if I had a spare, but I never worked in an environment where I wanted my TTY identified. ;-) Perhaps some models of TTY did use a tape loop, but I can't place one that did. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Nov-2007 at 23:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -25.6 F (-32.0 C) Windchill -48.3 F (-44.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.2 kts Grid 9 Barometer 681.7 mb (10564 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 26 17:41:36 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:41:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <20071126232108.GA20850@usap.gov> Message-ID: <58814.99658.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Ethan Dicks wrote:*>> snip <<* > No Gary in an A1000... Gary appeared first in > the A500 and A2000. > The A1000 had Agnus, Paula and Denise > (though I recall one name being > different in the way-back-earliest days of the > Amiga). Yes, Denise was originally called Daphne. I think Agnus and Paula had different names (starting with the same initial - A and P respectively) too, but I can't recall them right now. It's mentioned somewhere in Dave Haynies Deathbed Vigil video. Probably when he's going through the old West Chester HQ, I seem to recall it being written on a white board or something. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 17:45:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:45:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodores (Was: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <474B2409.3020801@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <494524.84856.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Brain wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Friday 23 November 2007 22:01, Chris M wrote: > > > >> The 64 has the weirdest video memory layout you > could ask for (afaik), and > >> the books aren't always cheap (eBay). A few of > them are a necessity. I went > >> looking for some and was astounded at the prices > they were getting. Maybe > >> that's died off. If you can find someone with a > whole cache of stuff, you'd > >> luck out. > >> > Lots of the books are now online at Project64, so > depending on your view > of orphaned data, you can print reference materials > out. > From memory, the first memory location in ram corresponded to a pixel 8 in and 8 down from the top left corner of the screen. Then you went toward the screen as you *ascended* in memory. Then...you proceeded to the next line, 1 pixel above where you started. So instead of having a normal rectangular coordinate layout, each 8 x 8 *character* was inverted kind of. 5 to 7 lines of BASIC code to convert to true rect. coordinates. But with boolean operators you could do it in 2. Of course most other computers are more *normal* w/regards to the way their vid mem is layed out. This applies to all *known* peecee video cards also. Anyone know of exceptions? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 17:51:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:51:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info Message-ID: <466158.88058.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> so what's a SASI board good for? I found and took pictures of my Acculogic sIDE-1/16 board (XT/IDE) if anyone would like to take a look. Besides 1 PAL chip, all standard TTL. Would be nice to get these things cloned. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 26 16:54:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:54:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <4749F883.4030903@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Nov 25, 7 02:34:43 pm Message-ID: > > However, my 5271 originally (a long time ago, before I inherited it) had > a card with a BNC connector on the back, which sounds like it may have > been a host interface. Unfortunately I didn't get the card when I > inherited the machine (the previous user removed it to install a modem > in its place), so I can't provide more info. There's a chance I may be > able to get in touch with him over the holidays, and if so I'll see if > he still has it lying around somewhere... I have something here that might be related, althoguh I don't think it was made by IBM. It's a full-length 8-bit card with a single BNC connector on the bracket. The outer of the BNC is isolated fro mthe bracket. The silkscreen on the board gives the name 'PC/3278' There's a 2*30 set of edge fingers at the top front of the PCB pointign upwards. THe board is of such a shape that a socket could be fitted here and the cover would still go on the PC. The main components on the board are : 8X305 microcontorller 3 24 pin EPROMs (I can't see the type without peeling off the labels) 8K of SRAM (4 off 6116) DP8340 and DP8341 (I have seen these chips befroe in 3270-related devices) Lots of TTL 8MHz and 18.868MHz crystaks -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 26 17:04:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:04:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <005b01c82fc2$f06bd9e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Nov 26, 7 00:26:06 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > The C64 is a great machine, but you're not going to > >learn many *deep* details about the hardware (not that > >it's necessarily an issue).... > > I disagree. > > The beauty of the '64 in respect of learning about computer architecture is > PRECISELY because the graphics and sound are handled by custom chips, rather > than a bunch of TTL. You have a nice relatively simple system divided up > into nice logical blocks....nice and easy to get to grips with for the > uninitiated. And that's exactly why I think it's a poor choice. You can't _really_ understnad what goes on inside those blocks. There aren't even data sheets published for some of them, let alone real internal descriptions (AFAIK). You have to regard them as black boxes. And as I said before, I regard that is a major problem. I have never understood this love of simplifying things by treating them as composed modules that you don't bother looking inside. To me that's a very confusing way to look at things. Mind you, I am probably one of the few people who actually battled through the transistopr-level schematic for the NE555 timer chip (it is published in some of the data sheets...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 26 17:09:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:09:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <006001c82fc3$ee695db0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Nov 26, 7 00:33:14 am Message-ID: > I'd have suggested something running "BBC BASIC" but the Beeb is a fairly > formidable system to understand and the Electron, ISTR, has most of the Is it? Why? Are you talking abotu understanding how to program it, or understanding the hardware? For the former, yes, BBC BASIC does allow local variables, named procedures/functions, recursion, etc. But you don't _have_ to use them when you're starting out. You can write spaghetti code if you want to. For the latter, I necer had any problems understanding the BBC micro circuit diagtram in the back of the Advanced User Guide (a totally essential book, BTW). There are 2 ULAs, but they;re both quite simple functiions (video dot path amd cassette encoder/decoder, basically). The rest of it is very well documented. > electronics inside a ULA so you wouldn't really learn anything useful about > it. Yes. A ULA, CPU, ROM and _4 bit wide_ RAM, basically. Yes, the Electron has 64K*4 RAM, which is fiddled by the ULA to look like 32K*8 to the processor. I am not joking. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 26 17:43:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:43:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474AA212.32191.5290D6CE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 26, 7 10:38:10 am Message-ID: > My recollection of this device was that a drum with cams was used to > store a message that could then be sent later. I don't recall if > this was an attempt to provide buffering for typeahead--it's very > easy for a touch typist to type faster than the old TTY machines > could send--or just a way to record a message for later sending. THis sounds like the 'answerback drum'. It was an option in the Teletype model 33, It was standard on some other teleprinters (my Creed 7E, for example, has it, I think all of said model do). I've never seen one that could be programmed from the keyboard. Normally you had to break off the appropraite tines at installation to encode the message you wanted to send. The Teletype Mdoel 33 one was a one-piece plastic drum, if you broke off the wrong tine, or wanted to change the message, you had to replace the whole thing. Creed had separate strips of metal for each character that you slotted into a drum that was part of the machine (and a lot harder to remove than the strips of metal), obviously with that type you could replace just the strip(s) for the characters you wanted to change. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 26 17:20:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:20:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <001201c82fca$e998bea0$6a00a8c0@JWEST> from "Jay West" at Nov 25, 7 07:23:11 pm Message-ID: > > And.... that would be completely offtopic. > Re: record speed It is your list, but... Firstly, this came about by topic-drift from the use of stroboscope disks. And IM from "Roy J. Tellason" at Nov 26, 7 01:42:36 pm Message-ID: > > On Saturday 24 November 2007 23:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The User Port on all the C=3D machines is more-or-less the same... 12x2 > > 0.154" edge connectors. > > I thought those were 0.156"? I am darn sure they were. > > I'm trying to remember what all edge connectors used to be common. I'm=20 > thinking that 0.1", 0.125", and 0.156" were some of the more common siz= > es=20 There was a UK 0.15" one, which was not quite compatible with 0.156" ptich on long connectors (I found that out the hard way!). And I have seen 0.2" pitch ones. > of connector finger out there. And how many pins? Seemed to me there wa= > s an=20 > awful lot of stuff out there that used 22/44 pins of 0.156" spacing. I'm= > =20 > wondering what other ones might have been especially common. 0.125", 100 pins (50 on each side), obviously (S100 bus, HP DIO slot, etc) 0.125" 36 pins (18 on a side, sometimes just single-sided), DEC flip-chip, etc 0.1" pitch in all sorts of widths. 62 pin is of course the 8 bit ISA slot. 20, 34, 40, 50 are all very common. As is (at least over here), 43 pins with a polarising key in place of contact 37 (that's normally single-sided, I have seen the dobule-sided 86 pin version, though). 0.156", 18, 22, 25 pins pere side are especially common, but many others turn up. In the UK, 0.156" connectors are not common, to the extent that I don't know a UK supplier for them. When I need one for repairs or making test rigs/extenders for USA-designed machines (e.g. HP stuff), I have to order it from Digikey (and pay the shipping...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 26 17:28:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT : CRT replacement In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071126113536.04d5e0d0@alpha.ccii.co.za> from "Wouter" at Nov 26, 7 11:43:08 am Message-ID: > > Hi all > > Apologies for the off-topic, but I'm pretty sure someone here knows the > answer to this one. > > A friend has a Motorola Communications Analyser model number R 2001 B. The > CRT is blown. Why do you suspect that the CRT has failed? Have yoy actually tested it (e.g is the heater open-circuit?) > > I don't even know if it's vector or raster, I'd suspect vector? There is no such thing as a 'vactor CRT'. Any CRT can be used in either mod. Although it's common for raster displayes to use magnetically-deflected CRTs and vector displays to use electrostatically-deflected CRTs, I can think of counterexamples to both of those. Can you give a little more description of the CRT? Any type number on it? Is it more like TV CRT ot a 'socpe one? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 26 17:39:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:39:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <474B0D26.6040308@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Nov 26, 7 01:15:02 pm Message-ID: > Hmm... Wonder if it's possible to build a relay without a spring on the > switch. That is, you have to send current with one polarity to set the > switch to a 1 and reverse polarity to set a zero - sort of what core > memory does with rings... I suppose this could instead be done by > attaching a magnet to the switch, or using magnet as the thing inside > the switch body, or better yet maybe a relay with a ball with a set of > contacts as the switch and two magnets, one on each opposite side... > you'd energize one coil for a "1" and the other for a "0" Absolutely, Such devices exist, and are normally magnetically-latched. There are types with one coil (as you say, one polarity to 'set', the other to 'reset') and ones with 2 coils which often you can either use as spearate set and reset coils, or wire them togetner and use them as a single polarity-dependant coil. They're often used where the power required to hold a normal relay energised would be a problem. One classic-computer applciations that I've come across is that the cassette control relays in the cassette interface/printer for Sharp pocket computers (PC1500, PC1350, etc) are of this type. I think that polaristed telegraph relays ('Carpenter relays' over here) were designed to be stable in each state. Sort-of on-topic too... Incidentally, remember those little 4-pen plotters that Radio Shack used in the CGP115, Commoodore used in the 1520, etc, etc, etc. The pen up/down solenoid in those is magnetically-latched. A pulse of one polarity puts the pane on to the paper, a pulse of the other polarity lifts it off again. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 26 17:58:56 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:58:56 -0700 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071126233500.GD20850@usap.gov> References: <474B2289.6EFF7342@cs.ubc.ca> <474AC4DF.15311.5318C746@cclist.sydex.com> <20071126233500.GD20850@usap.gov> Message-ID: <474B5DC0.9040107@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Mine are both intact. I might consider encoding one if I had a spare, > but I never worked in an environment where I wanted my TTY identified. ;-) You might consider it, if Penquiuns can learn to type... Don't want any ilegal logins you know. :) > -ethan Do any systems still use ASCII control characters for network control or device control? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 18:02:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:02:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: strange request (Sharp PC-7000) Message-ID: <974253.2426.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a NOS screen for one of these things? I turned mine on today and I like it, but it's a bit worn out. Strange request it may seem, but I actually have a brand new screen and k/b for IBM's first laptop (I can't believe the name escapes me). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 26 18:07:08 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:07:08 -0600 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <20071126233500.GD20850@usap.gov> References: <474B2289.6EFF7342@cs.ubc.ca> <474AC4DF.15311.5318C746@cclist.sydex.com> <20071126233500.GD20850@usap.gov> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:35:00 +0000> From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's> > On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 01:06:39PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:> > On 26 Nov 2007 at 11:46, Brent Hilpert wrote:> > > > > What about the "Who are you" id message used on some teletype networks, so one could> > > confirm that you were talking to the desired recipient terminal? I believe the> > > ASCII control code 'ENQuiry' was originally intended for eliciting that message.> > > > Wasn't that just a perforated tape loop?> > Not in my ASR-33 - it's a "finned drum" - you break off the tabs to turn> ones to zeroes (or the other way 'round?) and when the terminal receives > the ENQ from the host, it spins the drums which "types" back the reply.> I forget how many character positions it has, but it's on the order of 12> to 16.> > Mine are both intact. I might consider encoding one if I had a spare,> but I never worked in an environment where I wanted my TTY identified. ;-)> > Perhaps some models of TTY did use a tape loop, but I can't place one that> did.> > -ethan> > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Nov-2007 at 23:30 Z> South Pole Station> PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -25.6 F (-32.0 C) Windchill -48.3 F (-44.6 C)> APO AP 96598 Wind 9.2 kts Grid 9 Barometer 681.7 mb (10564 ft)> > Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html Didnt X-ON, X-OFF start and stop the tape reader? If so you could have your tape loop end with X-OFF and it would stop itself. Sending X-ON to the tty would start the tape loop.... Randy _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 26 18:14:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:14:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <466158.88058.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <466158.88058.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071126161109.N50829@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > so what's a SASI board good for? This is going to soubnd flippant, . . . it's for hooking up an SASI drive. (Shugart Associates System Interface)? (one of the predecessors to SCSI) From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 26 18:24:02 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:24:02 -0600 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting References: Message-ID: <001401c8308b$d0424310$6500a8c0@BILLING> Tony wrote... > It is your list, but... > > Firstly, this came about by topic-drift from the use of stroboscope > disks. And IM speed of classic computer peripherals (disk drives, teleprinters, etc). I > believe reparir methods for classic computer stuff are on-topic. I agree completely with your opinion. It was on topic. Then topic-drift occured.... ;) > Seocndly, what abotu flexidisks of computer software? That is way-on-topic... thanks :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 26 18:25:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:25:49 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: Message-ID: <002701c8308c$15f324b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote... >> > The C64 is a great machine, but you're not going to >> >learn many *deep* details about the hardware (not that >> >it's necessarily an issue).... Then someone else wrote... >> I disagree. >> >> The beauty of the '64 in respect of learning about computer architecture >> is >> PRECISELY because the graphics and sound are handled by custom chips, I smell a forthcoming religious war ;) Jay From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 18:37:14 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:37:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <20071126161109.N50829@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> ah so in other words they're useless. I had thought it was kind of sort of to be used with an mfm drive. Ah well. --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > > so what's a SASI board good for? > > This is going to soubnd flippant, . . . > it's for hooking up an SASI drive. > (Shugart Associates System Interface)? > (one of the predecessors to SCSI) > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Nov 26 18:47:36 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:47:36 -0600 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474B6928.8090209@brutman.com> Chris M wrote: > ah so in other words they're useless. I had thought it > was kind of sort of to be used with an mfm drive. Ah > well. > SASI is a predecessor to SCSI, and there are some old SCSI drives that might be able to use the board. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 18:40:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:40:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Commie 64 lives? Message-ID: <947626.22160.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> We all know decent emulators are a click away. But what do you do once you're downloaded and installed the emulator? Much C64 s/w was copy protected to begin with, so does having an emulator give you the ability to do much more then code from scratch? Is there s/w out there? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 18:47:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:47:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sega YENO Message-ID: <13684.37759.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Anyone got one? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 26 18:50:01 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:50:01 -0500 Subject: the Commie 64 lives? References: <947626.22160.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b501c8308f$7184e310$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:40 PM Subject: the Commie 64 lives? > We all know decent emulators are a click away. But > what do you do once you're downloaded and installed > the emulator? Much C64 s/w was copy protected to begin > with, so does having an emulator give you the ability > to do much more then code from scratch? Is there s/w > out there? > > You do the same thing people did back in the 80's, load cracked games into your C64. Same for every other system that has an emulator. I would guess that there are more disk images of games and programs floating around on the web with copy protection removed then there are direct images with protection intact (which would be hard to do since some games used known disk defects as copy protection). I am not saying it is legal or moral, just what's out there. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 26 18:49:26 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:49:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > ah so in other words they're useless. I had thought it > was kind of sort of to be used with an mfm drive. Ah > well. Well, there were some adapter/controller boards that permitted connecting an MFM drive to an SASI board. (similar to the OMTI boards for hanging MFM on SCSI) It MIGHT be close enough to SCSI to be possible to modify a SCSI drive into an SASI one. IF you discard it, then next week, you will find an SASI drive with no controller board. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 18:55:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:55:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <895884.23993.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > > ah so in other words they're useless. I had > thought it > > was kind of sort of to be used with an mfm drive. > Ah > > well. > > Well, > there were some adapter/controller boards that > permitted connecting an MFM > drive to an SASI board. (similar to the OMTI boards > for hanging MFM on > SCSI) > > It MIGHT be close enough to SCSI to be possible to > modify a SCSI drive > into an SASI one. > > IF you discard it, then next week, you will find an > SASI drive with no > controller board. No I won't. Besides I'd need a steam shovel to discard of the ones I got. What about Xebec? They made a *similar* z80 based controller. I had the opportunity to own several hundred of those also, but waffled. And turns out I picked up a Mindset hard drive (external) that uses that same controller. Which interface was that likely? Best guess... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 26 19:04:41 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:04:41 -0500 Subject: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs In-Reply-To: <200711261410.19298.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <01C77210.ED942260@MSE_D03> <474712E0.6050707@flippers.com> <200711261410.19298.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4d82c73639eb26dbff950c8c9fcc288c@neurotica.com> On Nov 26, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> I have a programmer designed by Steve Ciarcia from BYTE - It uses an >>> 8051AH-Basic (The 8051 with basic embedded) as the controller - and >>> still works a treat - to this day. - Standalone board, interface via >>> serial. It was fun to see peoples faces when you shipped a ^C down >>> the >>> serial line, and dropped through to a READY prompt. > > I have one of those too. And then you could type LIST and get a > listing of > what was in there. But I never did make much sense out of what I saw > then... > > Since those days, I've collected a bit of info on that chip off the > 'net, > though I haven't digested it yet. I know that chip (both the 8052 and the BASIC interpreter that shipped with that version of it) quite well. I've ported the BASIC to more modern mcs51 implementations like the Philips 89C66x family, and I've added functionality and fixed a few things. I've not released my code but am considering it. The original code is unbelievably tight...it FILLS the 8KB ROM space on the 8052, and gains density by doing crazy stuff like jumping backward to access the RET instruction from a previous subroutine, etc. Not very readable, but very, very dense. Part of my effort was spent un-densifying it for clarity and ease of maintenance. It's a very good BASIC interpreter in my opinion. Before doing all that stuff, though, I spent a good bit of time hacking with it burned into 8752 chips. The hex files and manual (as PDF) used to be readily available online, but if anyone wants them, I can provide them. I can also supply 8752 chips with the BASIC interpreter burned into them for a nominal fee. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 19:11:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:11:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Dimension Message-ID: <294320.34378.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Not exactly my Holy Grail, but a unit I hold in high regard. Anyone have one (or more) surplus to their needs (working or not). I actually have a line on one already, but the guy is taking his time. Don't want to bug him that much. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 26 19:17:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:17:13 +0000 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 04:49:26PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > Well, > there were some adapter/controller boards that permitted connecting an MFM > drive to an SASI board. (similar to the OMTI boards for hanging MFM on > SCSI) There is one of those in the CBM 9060 and CBM 9090 drives. > It MIGHT be close enough to SCSI to be possible to modify a SCSI drive > into an SASI one. I've often mused about investigating the 90x0 firmware to see if it's possible/reasonable to make the "DOS Board" speak SCSI rather than SASI, but that's one of those long-term projects that just hasn't come up in the queue yet. > IF you discard it, then next week, you will find an SASI drive with no > controller board. That is the way of things. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 27-Nov-2007 at 01:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -25.8 F (-32.1 C) Windchill -48.6 F (-44.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.3 kts Grid 3 Barometer 681.5 mb (10572 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 26 19:27:17 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:27:17 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <359ca1b33bb222a9e57cf4efa23d8eab@neurotica.com> On Nov 26, 2007, at 1:11 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> If one wanted to work with an extensible language, Forth is the most >> flexible. It is also one of the best for understanding more complex >> programming concepts. It isn't that it has them built in, it is that >> it >> contains all the building blocks needed to create them. > > Forth is definitely one of the other things that I'm looking at, but > it's > style is rather putting me off. I have a 68HC11-based board that > comes up in > it, and should probably hook it up and play with it one of these > days, or > get an emulator going, or something, just to try and get a handle on > it. > If you know of any online resources for that language I'd sure like to > hear > about them. I did snag two of Leo Brodie's books, for starters, but > not a > whole lot else. I really, really like FORTH. Any old SPARCstation makes a great FORTH learning vehicle (OpenBOOT), but I opted to build a small Z80 single-board computer and ported Brad Rodriguez' CamelFORTH to it as a machine on which to learn the language. I've had great fun with it, and the language is VERY powerful. I've extended it quite a bit; written a full-screen editor, drivers for new hardware (I2C flash, VF display, I2C tone generator, etc) etc etc. I hope to add analog I/O sometime soon. I have a few Harris RTX2000 chips (essentially a native FORTH instruction set...very neat) but haven't done anything with them yet. I really need more free time. Brodie's books are good; they will serve you well. Here are some URLs to get you going: General information and history: http://www.colorforth.com/HOPL.html http://www.ultratechnology.com/1xforth.htm http://www.ultratechnology.com/moore4th.htm Implementation: http://www.camelforth.com/news.php http://retroforth.org/ http://forthos.org/ http://www.taygeta.com/forthcomp.html -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 19:35:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:35:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <359ca1b33bb222a9e57cf4efa23d8eab@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <525348.31670.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > I really, really like FORTH. Yeah but who doesn't dig PROLOG. Or LISP. That's where the action is. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 26 19:38:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:38:25 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, , <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474B0491.9158.541196BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2007 at 13:11, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Forth is definitely one of the other things that I'm looking at, but it's > style is rather putting me off. I have a 68HC11-based board that comes up in > it, and should probably hook it up and play with it one of these days, or > get an emulator going, or something, just to try and get a handle on it. > If you know of any online resources for that language I'd sure like to hear > about them. I did snag two of Leo Brodie's books, for starters, but not a > whole lot else. Teaching a young person Forth could habits speech strange to lead. - ) ; Chuck Cheers , From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 19:42:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:42:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474B0491.9158.541196BB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <110166.65531.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Teaching a young person Forth could habits speech > strange to lead. I agree totally. Stick to FORTRAN and be safe. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 26 19:51:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:51:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474B0491.9158.541196BB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, , <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> <474B0491.9158.541196BB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071126174850.I50829@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Teaching a young person Forth could habits speech strange to lead. > - ) ; Is Japanese a post-fix language? Howzbout starting with Postscript? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 26 19:54:21 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:54:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20071126175249.K50829@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > There is one of those in the CBM 9060 and CBM 9090 drives. So, . . . an IBM PC SASI board would let you cable a CBM 90x0 drive to a PC? THAT seems like a good use. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 26 19:55:51 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:55:51 +0000 Subject: Commodores (Was: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <494524.84856.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <474B2409.3020801@jbrain.com> <494524.84856.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071127015551.GB22053@usap.gov> On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 03:45:20PM -0800, Chris M wrote: > From memory, the first memory location in ram > corresponded to a pixel 8 in and 8 down from the top > left corner of the screen. Then you went toward the > screen as you *ascended* in memory. Then...you > proceeded to the next line, 1 pixel above where you > started. So instead of having a normal rectangular > coordinate layout, each 8 x 8 *character* was inverted > kind of. That's not my recollection... Let's consider a monochrome bitmap for the VIC-II (as opposed to the double- bit 4-color screens, which is just an extension of the simpler case)... Whatever portion of RAM the VIC-II points to to display as a bitmap (there are address bits to twiddle in one of the VIC-II registers), the VIC-II grabs the first byte at that location, let's use $2000, and shoots out 8 pixels (the two possible colors of which are contained elsewhere). If we consider the top left of the screen to be (0,0), then that first byte is (0,0) through (7,0). The next byte ($2001) gets rendered as (0,1) through (7,1). As you said, the order is to fill out an 8x8 character sized block, then move to the next character position, so the ninth byte renders as (8,0) through (8,7), the seventeenth byte comes out as (16,0) through (16,7), etc. 320 bytes later, you are down to (0,8). The only "ascending" thing you might have to worry about is that (0,0) is bit $80 at $2000 (our assumed base address in this example), unless I've mis-remembered, and (0,0) is bit $01 at $2000. You can see the effect of this mapping when you turn on the 'highres' bit in the VIC-II - with a default C-64 configuration, you see the C-64 character map rendered at the top of the screen, then a bunch of random RAM garbage (the character ROM takes precedent over RAM unless you map it out). It's optimized for rendering characters into a 40x25 grid on top of bitmaps, not for rendering raw bitmaps. I found it to be annoying at first, but in the end, as long as the pattern is known, it really doesn't matter what it is. > Of course most other computers are more *normal* > w/regards to the way their vid mem is layed out. This > applies to all *known* peecee video cards also. Anyone > know of exceptions? The Apple II also has a strange mapping, but not for character convenience... it's so Woz could save a chip or two on the DRAM refresh circuit. I think it's something like the first 40 bytes render to the first line (7 mono bits per pixel, which _is_ inconvenient), then the next 40 bytes render something like 8 or 16 lines down, and so on. You can see the consequences when switching to a HIRES screen - there's sort of a venetian blind effect as the 6502 zeroes each byte sequentially, but the video hardware renders that in stripes. Having written commercial games for both platforms, the standard way to handle it was to pass an X and Y coordinate to a translation routine (which most commonly used lookup tables for the starting address of each line). Y coords were looked up and turned into a zero-page base address, X coords were divided by 8 or 7 to ignore pixel positions, then turned into an offset from the start of line (more or less, since the C-64 had 320 bytes between the left and right edges), then the remainder from the X calculations was used to figure out which pixels needed tweaked. Between a lack of hardware DIV/MUL, 8-bit offsets on 16-bit pointers, and, from platform to platform, random geometries, the rendering part of any program from the era was a source of much head-scratching and optimization when porting your app to a new platform. Since this was, I think, originally part of the "teach computers to kids" thread, I would like to add that I don't think that the C-64 is a great platform to teach bitmapped graphics on. It's good for character-cell graphics (as is the PET), and Sprites can be interesting (especially since there's such good hardware support for them on the C-64), but I agree that it is convoluted to go from (X, Y) to figuring out which particular byte needs to have its bits twiddled. The Amiga, at least, uses a bit-plane arrangement - much better than bit-stuffing, which, ISTR, VGA still uses. If you want a 320x200x8 color screen, you multiply 320x200 to get 64000 bits - 8000 bytes, then go allocate 3 sets of those and start rendering. If you want 16 colors instead, go get 4 chunks of 8000 bytes and remember to use the extra bitplane. The X*Y math stays the same. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 27-Nov-2007 at 01:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -25.8 F (-32.1 C) Windchill -48.6 F (-44.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.3 kts Grid 3 Barometer 681.5 mb (10572 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 26 19:59:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:59:01 +0000 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <20071126175249.K50829@shell.lmi.net> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> <20071126175249.K50829@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20071127015901.GC22053@usap.gov> On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 05:54:21PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > There is one of those in the CBM 9060 and CBM 9090 drives. > > So, . . . > an IBM PC SASI board would let you cable a CBM 90x0 drive to a PC? > THAT seems like a good use. As long as the PC can handle 256-byte sectors... The base drive in a CBM 90x0 is either a Tandon TM602S (9060/5MB) or a Tandom TM603S (9090/7.5MB) - 4 heads vs 6 heads, MFM encoding, 32 sectors of 256 bytes per track. But the CBM 90x0 "DOS board" _does_ speak SASI to a SASI<->ST506 board that's also in there. The geometry is fixed in ROM, though there have been intrepid souls in the past few years who have dared to fiddle the geometry table to get up to the filesystem max of 16MB per disk. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 27-Nov-2007 at 01:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -26.1 F (-32.3 C) Windchill -50.0 F (-45.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.1 kts Grid 0 Barometer 681.4 mb (10575 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 26 20:15:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:15:23 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071126174850.I50829@shell.lmi.net> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <474B0491.9158.541196BB@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071126174850.I50829@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474B0D3B.21825.54336C72@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2007 at 17:51, Fred Cisin wrote: > Is Japanese a post-fix language? Dunno about that, but I've seen some sentences in German that in Postfix constructed appeared to be. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 26 20:25:36 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:25:36 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071126174850.I50829@shell.lmi.net> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> <474B0491.9158.541196BB@cclist.sydex.com> <20071126174850.I50829@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071126202342.050b5ec8@mail.threedee.com> At 07:51 PM 11/26/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Teaching a young person Forth could habits speech strange to lead. >> - ) ; > >Is Japanese a post-fix language? I would argue it is. Verbs at the end, objects get tagged along the way, phrases stack. I remember laughing out loud when I made that realization during Japanese class. - John From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Nov 26 20:33:01 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:33:01 -0500 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <4749F883.4030903@msu.edu> References: <425ACE25-3B06-4EE9-A6A0-354E641593CA@typewritten.org> <47499D26.9080909@brutman.com> <4749F883.4030903@msu.edu> Message-ID: <474B81DD.6050707@nktelco.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > However, my 5271 originally (a long time ago, before I inherited it) > had a card with a BNC connector on the back, which sounds like it may > have been a host interface. A long time ago we used some PC/3270s and when they were junked I saved a few of the cards with BNC connectors so that I could salvage the BNC connector. I have one left. It is 8-bit and almost square. There is some standard TTL, one Toshiba package (gate array ?), one IBM SLT package, and a pulse transformer. It has a DIP switch with a single switch to select slot 8 or slots 1-7. What was special about slot 8? -chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 26 20:36:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:36:45 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <0JRT006HYIAVUDD2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JRT006HYIAVUDD2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <8569b0efeade08154306cd77870efbb3@neurotica.com> On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Allison wrote: > Though a 10mhz Z80 is also a nice thing but the 85nS memory > need is something to aware of. That short M1 read cycle > preally beats up ram. Z180 is better and Z84S180s can be > found as fast as 33mhz. I've done quite a bit of work with the eZ80F91 at 50MHz. Running an RTOS with a TCP stack...still quite zippy. I use 15ns RAM in my designs, Cypress CY7C1049CV33-15. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 26 20:37:04 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071126202342.050b5ec8@mail.threedee.com> from John Foust at "Nov 26, 7 08:25:36 pm" Message-ID: <200711270237.lAR2b4j6015924@floodgap.com> > > > Teaching a young person Forth could habits speech strange to lead. > > > - ) ; > > Is Japanese a post-fix language? > I would argue it is. Verbs at the end, objects get tagged along > the way, phrases stack. I remember laughing out loud when I > made that realization during Japanese class. Technically it is "left branching" a/k/a "head final" but it works out the same way. (I have to make *some* use of that linguistics degree.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The point of good writing is knowing when to stop. -- Lucy Montgomery ------ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 26 20:41:47 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:41:47 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <200711270237.lAR2b4j6015924@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <008301c8309f$0e0fa9e0$6500a8c0@BILLING> *sigh* From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 26 20:59:18 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:59:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <008301c8309f$0e0fa9e0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200711270237.lAR2b4j6015924@floodgap.com> <008301c8309f$0e0fa9e0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20071126185328.R50829@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Jay West wrote: > *sigh* I started a tangent that isn't likely to stay on topic. I'm sorry. I have a crackpot theory about the effect on software development of having similar or different syntax between spoken and programming languages, and therefore why Forth would be better than FORTRAN for some cultures, etc. Unless we want to talk about what effect that had in the 1970s and 1980s, this isn't the place for it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 26 21:15:39 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:15:39 -0600 Subject: the Commie 64 lives? In-Reply-To: <00b501c8308f$7184e310$42aab941@game> References: <947626.22160.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <00b501c8308f$7184e310$42aab941@game> Message-ID: <474B8BDB.9060507@jbrain.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris M" > To: "talk" > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:40 PM > Subject: the Commie 64 lives? > > > >> We all know decent emulators are a click away. But >> what do you do once you're downloaded and installed >> the emulator? Much C64 s/w was copy protected to begin >> with, so does having an emulator give you the ability >> to do much more then code from scratch? Is there s/w >> out there? >> >> >> > > You do the same thing people did back in the 80's, load cracked games into > your C64. Same for every other system that has an emulator. I would guess > that there are more disk images of games and programs floating around on the > web with copy protection removed then there are direct images with > protection intact (which would be hard to do since some games used known > disk defects as copy protection). > > I am not saying it is legal or moral, just what's out there. > Well, if you own the game disks, the there is no legal/moral issue per se, but if you feel only your own disks are sacred, there are apps for the PC to read 1541 floppies (via a real 1541) from within the emulator. Pretty slick, IMHO. There is also some action in the TeleComm space, with VICE at least having a IP based ACIA emulation, which some hook through tcpser or BBS Server to call C64/C128 IP-based BBS systems using standard 64 terminal emulator programs (an emulator in an emulator, blows your mind). Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 26 21:17:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:17:44 -0700 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071126185328.R50829@shell.lmi.net> References: <200711270237.lAR2b4j6015924@floodgap.com> <008301c8309f$0e0fa9e0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <20071126185328.R50829@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474B8C58.2020006@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > I have a crackpot theory about the effect on software development of > having similar or different syntax between spoken and programming > languages, and therefore why Forth would be better than FORTRAN for some > cultures, etc. Unless we want to talk about what effect that had in the > 1970s and 1980s, this isn't the place for it. Heck in the 70's and 80's Mr Spock, was the only different person I knew of that used computers. "logical" was the keyword back then. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com PS. We never did really find out what kids wanted to about computers any how. By the time they grow up, case modding probably will be illegal too. Warning do not let your child read this warning. Warning this product has a 5% of running FORTH and this could lead to Chinese-speaky-talky-fortune-cookie-wordies. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 26 21:32:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:32:18 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071126185328.R50829@shell.lmi.net> References: <200711270237.lAR2b4j6015924@floodgap.com>, <008301c8309f$0e0fa9e0$6500a8c0@BILLING>, <20071126185328.R50829@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474B1F42.18937.5479DB41@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2007 at 18:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > I started a tangent that isn't likely to stay on topic. > I'm sorry. > > I have a crackpot theory about the effect on software development of > having similar or different syntax between spoken and programming > languages, and therefore why Forth would be better than FORTRAN for some > cultures, etc. Unless we want to talk about what effect that had in the > 1970s and 1980s, this isn't the place for it. I think I can put this back on topic, being one of the guilty parties (sorry, Jay). While some have suggested BASIC and FOrth, no one has yet suggested COBOL. Yet, COBOL is the closest of common programming languages to English, unless you'd like to count some of the contrived "natural programming languages" such as Metafor. In any case, COBOL might be closer to the language already understood by a young person. However, natural language is rarely rigorous, as many have pointed out and attempting to add rigor to conversational natural languages is probably folly. I submit that any high-level programming language--formal or natural-- while a shortcut way to get a machine to "do something", obscures the inner workings of a computer to such an extent as to give little clue as to precisely how the thing operates. In particular, "structured programming" elements can really hide inner workings. So, I propose that programming be taught first in machine language, then assembly. That's how I learned to do it. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 26 21:47:21 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:47:21 -0700 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474B1F42.18937.5479DB41@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200711270237.lAR2b4j6015924@floodgap.com>, <008301c8309f$0e0fa9e0$6500a8c0@BILLING>, <20071126185328.R50829@shell.lmi.net> <474B1F42.18937.5479DB41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <474B9349.3030509@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, I propose that programming be taught first in machine language, > then assembly. That's how I learned to do it. Real or fictional machine? > Cheers, > Chuck > PS. I bet with the right fictional machine, it could be a easy step to building hardware. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 26 21:46:37 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:46:37 -0600 Subject: Edge connectors (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <20071126232850.GB20850@usap.gov> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <4748EE68.1010402@arachelian.com> <20071125043113.GA30034@usap.gov> <200711261342.36338.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071126232850.GB20850@usap.gov> Message-ID: <474B931D.8000103@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Various ones... For the C= line, 6/12 and 12/24 were common (cassette > port, User Port, IEEE-488), but the VIC-20 had a 22/44 @ 0.156" expansion > connector. The C-64 was much smaller, but I can't reliably recall the > numbers off the top of my head, so I won't guess. > 22/44 @ .100 I've got EAGLE libs for user port, VIC exp, and C64 exp. JIm From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 26 21:58:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:58:29 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474B9349.3030509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200711270237.lAR2b4j6015924@floodgap.com>, <474B1F42.18937.5479DB41@cclist.sydex.com>, <474B9349.3030509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <474B2565.2238.5491D109@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2007 at 20:47, woodelf wrote: > Real or fictional machine? Real, but at least it was decimal. None of that funny binary stuff. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Nov 26 22:06:28 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:06:28 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: Message-ID: <009801c830aa$e32a1a60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....the Beeb is a fairly formidable system to understand.... > Is it? Why? Are you talking abotu understanding how to program it, or >understanding the hardware? The hardware. It's a very clever design, but looking at it from the point of view of someone who's just learning about computer electronics, I think it would look pretty daunting. The 64 is a much simpler system. I think the Beeb would make an ideal SECOND system once they've got "the bug". >....has 64K*4 RAM, which is fiddled by the ULA to look like 32K*8 >to the processor. I am not joking. I'd forgotten about that....did anyone ever figure out how much of a performance hit the machine took because of that? TTFN - Pete. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 26 22:12:09 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:12:09 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: > From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > > >> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:15:02 -0500> From: ray at arachelian.com> To:> Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's>> Roy J. Tellason wrote:>> On Friday 23 November 2007 19:05, dwight elvey wrote:>>>>>> From: rtellason at verizon.net>>>>>>>> I notice that even those guys that are building relay computers "cheat">>>> and use a single small solid-state chip for RAM. :-)>>>>>>> Hi>>> I've been thinking about how one could make a reasonable>>> memory, using small reed relays. If one puts a magnet close>>> to one end, it will cause the reed to close. Move it back>>> some and it will hold until the field is too weak.>>>> ..>>>> Dunno if they still sell them or not, but Radio Shack used to sell a pack of>> 20 reed switches for only a couple of bucks...>>>>>> Hmm... Wonder if it's possible to build a relay without a spring on the> switch. That is, you have to send current with one polarity to set the> switch to a 1 and reverse polarity to set a zero - sort of what core> memory does with rings... I suppose this could instead be done by> attaching a magnet to the switch, or using magnet as the thing inside> the switch body, or better yet maybe a relay with a ball with a set of> contacts as the switch and two magnets, one on each opposite side...> you'd energize one coil for a "1" and the other for a "0">> Hmm, could even be done with a solenoid and use the mechanical part of> it to touch a wire for output. :-) Wouldn't really be a relay, but> pretty close.>> > > > Teledyne makes a 'non volitale' relay. its tradename is Maglatch. Hi Randy I used to use these or similar in equipment while I was in the service. They were not real reliable and expensive. They were in a state machine control for a reel to real multi track tape. Every now and then we'd take the control board out and smack it several times onto the work bench. It would work fine for a few weeks and then need another smack. I assumed that it was related to the armatures needing to be demagnetize every now and then. They used a bias magnet similar to what I've been suggesting to work with reed relays. One thing I learned about reed relays is to not use a weller iron with the magnetic heater switch. The reed relay would not open. I'd use that method if it was more controllable. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Nov 26 22:17:26 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:17:26 -0000 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com><005b01c82fc2$f06bd9e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200711261421.55018.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <009f01c830ac$6b5cef60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> Also, full schematic diagrams for the machine were included >>in the "Programmer's Reference Guide". > For one version of it, yeah. There were at least four different >versions of the boards out there.... Good point. But I still feel that the schematic which was published would be a useful learning aid despite this. It would only make a difference if you were going to hack around inside the machine itseelf, which may or may not be an issue. >....Another was RAM, the later boards used two 64Kx4 parts instead >of eight 64Kx1, and the very latest ones I saw combined two of the >ROMs (Kernel and BASIC?) into one single chip. I'd assumed that all 64Cs had the combined Kernel/BASIC ROM, was this not the case? Likewise, I was under the impression that the move to a pair of 64K*4 DRAMs also came about with the advent of the C-64C.... TTFN - Pete. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 26 22:24:35 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:24:35 -0800 Subject: Babbage Calculating Machine Article 1833 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20071125093356.03328d50@mail.degnanco.net> <4749BEA5.16F608FE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <474B9C03.B9015007@cs.ubc.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I haven't had time to read the article, but given the year and application > (log tables) it sounds like what the reporter saw was Babbage's difference > engine rather than analytical engine. The d-e was a calculator of a form > and was completed (or largely so), but it was not programmable. The a-e was > Babbage's uncompleted machine that looks more computer-like in modern terms. > The a-e (was going to) use punch cards, the d-e did not. A little googling > should bring up a lot more info to elaborate between the two. ..Correcting myself for the sake of accuracy: A little refresher reading indicates I overstated the state of completion of the difference engine. It was not completed. If I have it right this time, a functional portion of it was and this is presumably what the reporter saw. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Nov 26 22:25:07 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:25:07 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: Message-ID: <00a401c830ad$7dd2edb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > And that's exactly why I think it's a poor choice. You can't >_really_ understnad what goes on inside those blocks.... But you don't need to when you're starting out. Why get bogged down with the intricasies of a board full of TTL when all you need to know is how to drive it? I suppose what I'm saying is you need to keep things fairly simple to start with (but not *TOO* simple). Getting the balance right is tricky.... TTFN - Pete. From davis at saw.net Mon Nov 26 22:46:17 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:46:17 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <474BA119.8090901@saw.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers > work... any recommendations for good books for learning the basics > from? I think I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC > manual, but I really don't recall now where I found out about the > fundamental building blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU > worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of > book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... > > I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits > too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates > from at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. > > I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but > something US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a > C64, but maybe it'd be better to start with something a bit more > simple? i.e. probably something Z80 or 6502-based (just because > there's more resources devoted to them), generic cassette data > storage, basic video abilities etc. > > (You know, I don't recall seeing a 'how to introduce kids to vintage > computing' thread on here before :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > > Try Squeak. Jim Davis. --- Anybody want to buy a Symbolics 1200XL? I need wood. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 26 23:03:57 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:03:57 -0700 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474BA119.8090901@saw.net> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <474BA119.8090901@saw.net> Message-ID: <474BA53D.5080507@jetnet.ab.ca> davis wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> So the boy (9yr. old) was asking last night about how computers >> work... any recommendations for good books for learning the basics >> from? I think I started out with a Sinclair Spectrum and its BASIC >> manual, but I really don't recall now where I found out about the >> fundamental building blocks of [typical] computers and how a CPU >> worked. There must be a good 'classic' "how computers work" type of >> book which avoids going on about PCs and Xboxen... >> >> I figure I should find him one of those kids electronics projects kits >> too (I think that was where I got my first exposure to logic gates >> from at about the same age) and also some old 8-bit machine to play with. >> >> I can get a Spectrum / BBC micro shipped over in a few months, but >> something US-built might be better; any thoughts? I did wonder about a >> C64, but maybe it'd be better to start with something a bit more >> simple? i.e. probably something Z80 or 6502-based (just because >> there's more resources devoted to them), generic cassette data >> storage, basic video abilities etc. >> >> (You know, I don't recall seeing a 'how to introduce kids to vintage >> computing' thread on here before :-) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> >> > Try Squeak. > > Jim Davis. > --- > Anybody want to buy a Symbolics 1200XL? I need wood. > What is a Symbolics 1200XZL ... I got the feeling it is lisp from that name? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 26 23:08:33 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:08:33 -0800 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <001401c8308b$d0424310$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <001401c8308b$d0424310$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Hi How about back to the original subject. Has he tried to swap the boards on the drives. On floppies, these are usually interchangeable. That would Isolate the problem to the mechanical or electrical. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 26 23:17:18 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:17:18 -0800 Subject: Symbolics 1200XL (was: Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <474BA53D.5080507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <474BA119.8090901@saw.net> <474BA53D.5080507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <474BA85E.9070701@mainecoon.com> woodelf wrote: > What is a Symbolics 1200XZL ... I got the feeling it is lisp from that > name? It's a Lisp machine based on the single-chip Ivory VLSI implementation. HP did the actual fab in 2, 1.5 and ultimately one micron CMOS. Figure at least twice as fast as a 3600 class machine and a lot smaller. Would decidedly be a fun toy to have. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Nov 26 23:34:35 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:34:35 +0000 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <009f01c830ac$6b5cef60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200711261421.55018.rtellason@verizon.net> <009f01c830ac$6b5cef60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20071127053435.GA24264@usap.gov> On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 04:17:26AM -0000, Ensor wrote: > >....Another was RAM, the later boards used two 64Kx4 parts instead > >of eight 64Kx1, and the very latest ones I saw combined two of the > >ROMs (Kernel and BASIC?) into one single chip. > > I'd assumed that all 64Cs had the combined Kernel/BASIC ROM, was this not > the case? Thinking back to the Rev A and B motherboards, they should have had one 8K ROM for BASIC and another 8K ROM for the Kernel - that was an inexpensive size to manufacture in 1982. > Likewise, I was under the impression that the move to a pair of 64K*4 DRAMs > also came about with the advent of the C-64C.... Perhaps it was then, or there was also an Rev E C-64 that was more integrated, IIRC. If I have it correctly (I have none to check at the moment), the clock circuit was changed, the RAM and ROM were changed, and the overall part count dropped, to lower manufacturing cost. I could also be confusing some of these changes with the C-64C. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 27-Nov-2007 at 05:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -29.0 F (-33.9 C) Windchill -53.9 F (-47.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.4 kts Grid 8 Barometer 681.3 mb (10579 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 26 23:56:15 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:56:15 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: <200711261232.17644.rtellason@verizon.net> <474B0D26.6040308@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2007 10:26 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Teledyne makes a 'non volitale' relay. its tradename is Maglatch. Lots of manufacturers make latching relays (or at least used to. I haven't had need to use one in over 10 years). We used to use them for power switching in most of our designs. At one time we had to switch away from teledyne relays because they could end up in an indeterminate and worse uncommandable state if exposed random vibration levels normally associated with the launch vehicles we were using. I believe they eventually fixed that issue, but it caused us a lot of problems in trying to find a replacement in a similar form factor. "latching relays" only brings up 53000 hits on google, so I assume they are still fairly common. Eric From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Nov 27 00:03:36 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:03:36 +0100 Subject: Cold booting an Apple III ? Message-ID: <474BB338.6050804@bluewin.ch> Is there a way to coldboot an apple III, if you do not have the SOS disks ? On the apple II you can do it via the serial interface and the Basic ROM, but the apple iii lacks these ROM's Jos DReesen From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 27 00:05:25 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:05:25 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <359ca1b33bb222a9e57cf4efa23d8eab@neurotica.com> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> <359ca1b33bb222a9e57cf4efa23d8eab@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On Nov 26, 2007, at 1:11 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> If one wanted to work with an extensible language, Forth is the most >>> flexible. It is also one of the best for understanding more complex >>> programming concepts. It isn't that it has them built in, it is that >>> it >>> contains all the building blocks needed to create them. >> >> Forth is definitely one of the other things that I'm looking at, but >> it's >> style is rather putting me off. I have a 68HC11-based board that >> comes up in >> it, and should probably hook it up and play with it one of these >> days, or >> get an emulator going, or something, just to try and get a handle on >> it. >> If you know of any online resources for that language I'd sure like to >> hear >> about them. I did snag two of Leo Brodie's books, for starters, but >> not a >> whole lot else. > > I really, really like FORTH. Any old SPARCstation makes a great > FORTH learning vehicle (OpenBOOT), but I opted to build a small Z80 > single-board computer and ported Brad Rodriguez' CamelFORTH to it as a > machine on which to learn the language. I've had great fun with it, > and the language is VERY powerful. I've extended it quite a bit; > written a full-screen editor, drivers for new hardware (I2C flash, VF > display, I2C tone generator, etc) etc etc. I hope to add analog I/O > sometime soon. Hi Your experience is not all that unusual. Many people that get started in Forth find that problems that they thought were complicated to deal with, in other languages, seem to almost write themselves. Many are put off by the noise words ( swap dup over and such ). Still, one finds that as one becomes a better coder in Forth, dup becomes about the only one of these words that gets used in higher levels of coding. The others find them selves in the lower level words. Some don't like the RPN nature but I alway thought that it was more natural in telling a computer what to do. It always reads left to right, top to bottom. No artificial formulas, just what to do and when to do it. Type checking is that last straw for many. It can't be a high level language if it wasn't type checked, could it? Does type checking really produce better error free code? I've only seen one large project ever completed on schedule and with no errors ever found in the end product ( the Canon Cat ) and it was all done in Forth by a team of programmers, without type checking. It was more than just the language but the language didn't get in the way for using better methods that actually did produce error free code. > > I have a few Harris RTX2000 chips (essentially a native FORTH > instruction set...very neat) but haven't done anything with them yet. > I really need more free time. I've got a NC4000 on a board that I've added floppy and hard drive to. I used old XT boards and wrote all the drivers in Forth. I also had an EPROM programmer card that ran on a parallel printer port. The RTX2000 was a great chip that followed the NC4000. They fixed some of the bugs in the NC4000. The RTX2000s were often used as accelerators on the PC bus with 386s and 486s. This was impressive when you consider that the clock speeds of the RTX2000 were on the order of 10 to 15MHz and the 386s were 33MHz and more. The RTX2000s made it into space because they had a rad harden version and they ran so cool for the amount of work they did( never saw one need a heat sink, cool to the touch ). On my NC4000 ( running at 4MHz ) I wrote a sort routine that could sort 1000 signed 16 bit intergers in 19.2ms. That is spending 19.2 us on each value sorted. The last point is that most seasoned Forth programmers actually write better code in other languages. They bring habits and methods along with them that allow them to write better code. Dwight > > Brodie's books are good; they will serve you well. Here are some > URLs to get you going: > > General information and history: > http://www.colorforth.com/HOPL.html > http://www.ultratechnology.com/1xforth.htm > http://www.ultratechnology.com/moore4th.htm > > Implementation: > http://www.camelforth.com/news.php > http://retroforth.org/ > http://forthos.org/ > http://www.taygeta.com/forthcomp.html > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 27 00:18:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:18:32 -0700 Subject: govliq: 2 empty equipment racks (Richmond, VA) Message-ID: Looks like these might be good for rack mounting PDP-11, etc., type equipment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 00:48:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:48:19 -0500 Subject: Symbolics 1200XL In-Reply-To: <474BA85E.9070701@mainecoon.com> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <474BA119.8090901@saw.net> <474BA53D.5080507@jetnet.ab.ca> <474BA85E.9070701@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <474BBDB3.2050403@gmail.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: >> What is a Symbolics 1200XZL ... I got the feeling it is lisp from that >> name? > > It's a Lisp machine based on the single-chip Ivory VLSI implementation. > HP did the actual fab in 2, 1.5 and ultimately one micron CMOS. > > Figure at least twice as fast as a 3600 class machine and a lot smaller. > Would decidedly be a fun toy to have. I'm wondering how a machine like this would compare performance-wise to a new design using a Symbolics-compatible LISP machine blown into a top-end FPGA. Would it easily fit? Would it perform well? Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 27 02:36:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:36:24 -0800 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <474B6688.24417.55903D99@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2007 at 21:56, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Nov 26, 2007 10:26 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Teledyne makes a 'non volitale' relay. its tradename is Maglatch. I recall a latching relay in my Lionel toy train engine that I had when I was a mere tyke. It used a rachet-and-pawl arrangement to reverse the direction of the motor rotation. Only a pulse was necessary to change direction. I've actually seen stepping switches used as memory in primitive computers. IIRC, the position is advanced when a step pulse is received and reset when the reset coil is pulsed. Otherwise, the switch retains its setting if power is removed. Certainly one could be used as a memory element as well as a mux or demux. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Nov 27 04:39:16 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:39:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> <359ca1b33bb222a9e57cf4efa23d8eab@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200711271053.FAA22856@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Type checking is that last straw for many. It can't be a high level > language if it wasn't type checked, could it? Does type checking > really produce better error free code? In my experience, it does, other things being equal. Which of course they rarely are - has anyone built what for lack of a better term I might call a typechecked FORTH engine? I don't really know FORTH as well as I'd like, but my impression is that doing that would require enough infrastructure that it would border on reinventing PostScript (minus the rendering stuff, of course). If I wanted to do such a thing - to go typechecked but still stay as close to FORTH as feasible - I'd probably try to start with typechecked hardware, Lisp Machine style. It'd lose the portability benefit of FORTH, but for an experiment I think it'd be worth it. > The last point is that most seasoned Forth programmers actually write > better code in other languages. They bring habits and methods along > with them that allow them to write better code. I think you'll find this is true of most languages - that the more languages someone is competent in, the better that person will be at all of them. Especially so when they're drastically different (for example, someone who knows only C, Pascal, and Java will be lacking perspective compared to someone who knows, say, FORTH, Prolog, and Lisp, because the former three are, for all their differences, the same in some important respects). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Nov 27 05:21:22 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:21:22 +0000 Subject: Commodores (Was: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <494524.84856.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <494524.84856.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711271121.22089.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Monday 26 November 2007 23:45:20 Chris M wrote: > Of course most other computers are more *normal* > w/regards to the way their vid mem is layed out. This > applies to all *known* peecee video cards also. Anyone > know of exceptions? The ZX Spectrum had a fairly bonkers layout, with three blocks of 2048 bytes, comprising eight rows of eight rows of 32 bytes. So - the first 32 bytes were the top row of the display, the next 32 were eight pixels down, the next 32 were 8 pixels below that, until you got 2048 bytes in. Then you started again on the second row of the display, and so on. Once the top third was done, you moved onto the middle third, then the bottom third. After you'd got all the pixels done, you had 768 bytes of attribute memory, to set foreground and background colour, bright and flash. Writing single-pixel vertical scrolling code was a pig. Gordon From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 27 06:16:46 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:16:46 -0500 Subject: Symbolics 1200XL In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:48:19 EST." <474BBDB3.2050403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711271216.lARCGki0012405@mwave.heeltoe.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >I'm wondering how a machine like this would compare performance-wise to >a new design using a Symbolics-compatible LISP machine blown into a >top-end FPGA. Would it easily fit? Would it perform well? I think there's a lot of rom in the ivory, but I think the core logic would fit. Given that you could do a 400mhz ddr-2 interface in today's fpga's, and run with an internal clock of, well, maybe 266mhz on a good day, it should be a lot faster. I was hoping someday someone would pop up with a cad tape of the ivory. It would be fun to turn it into verilog. I've never seen one, however. I've seen schematics for the 3600, and they are complex. The "G" machines where put into fpga's (probably standard cell) but I've never seen cad files or schematics. To be honest, running an emulation of the ivory on a dual core 64 bit x86 chip at 3ghz is really fast and plenty snappy. I did compile the original CADR into an fpga. It would synthesize with the original clock speed. I don't recall how much margin there was; the ALU paths are pretty slow. I have not actually run it in hardware, but some day I will, just for fun. It would make a nice desktop curio in clear plastic. -brad From rcini at optonline.net Tue Nov 27 06:55:32 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:55:32 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The "he" is me... I've swapped drives originally and this drive worked for a short time. I was originally looking for common failure modes for these drives. I've cleaned the heads using a disk but a more thorough and direct cleaning is warranted. The problem is that this is the second drive in the pair and to get to it means I have to disassemble half of the unit. I just haven't had the time in the last few days. I also want to check the drive RPM. I found a program for the Model 100 and bar code reader which turns it into a stroboscope, but I wanted to validate it on a working drive, so I have to pull out a TM100 drive. But, alas, I haven't had time for that in the last few days, either. I'm going to try to do that today. Rich On 11/27/07 12:08 AM, "dwight elvey" wrote: > > > > Hi > How about back to the original subject. > Has he tried to swap the boards on the drives. On floppies, > these are usually interchangeable. That would > Isolate the problem to the mechanical or electrical. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i?m > Initiative now. > http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From jvdg at sparcpark.net Tue Nov 27 07:02:10 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:02:10 +0100 Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: <200711261232.17644.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 2007-11-26 18:32, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> I've been thinking about how one could make a reasonable memory, using small >> reed relays. If one puts a magnet close to one end, it will cause the reed to >> close. Move it back some and it will hold until the field is too weak. >> If one set the magnet someplace in the middle of this band, one could use the >> direction of current through the coil to set and reset the contacts. >> One could create an array of these for the memory. Placing small magnets in >> opposite directions for adjacent bits would keep from building too high a >> field buildup, in the array. >> I was thinking that one could use small round magnets glued to the end of a >> threaded rod. This could then be adjusted to optimize the memory. >> Now all I need is a pile of reed relays. > > Dunno if they still sell them or not, but Radio Shack used to sell a pack of > 20 reed switches for only a couple of bucks... There's Chinese guys on eBay selling packs of fifty print relays for under ten dollars plus shipping. They're only single throw, so a bunch would be needed for some functions, but at those prices... An 8x8 RAM card would take about 150 relays (eight latches per byte, eight enablers, one hold, one select, and a couple extra for three bit address decoding). But really, how much RAM would you need on a relay computer? Half the fun is in building a somewhat limited machine to see what you can do, right? Plus, replace some of the relays with switches, and you have ROM to hold a program. Hmm... Time to fire up EagleCAD! :-) ,xtG .tsooJ -- who | grep -i blonde | date cd $HOME; unzip; touch; strip; finger mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount sleep -- Joost van de Griek From jvdg at sparcpark.net Tue Nov 27 07:08:42 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:08:42 +0100 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474B1F42.18937.5479DB41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2007-11-27 4:32, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While some have suggested BASIC and FOrth, no one has yet suggested > COBOL. Yet, COBOL is the closest of common programming languages to > English, unless you'd like to count some of the contrived "natural > programming languages" such as Metafor. In any case, COBOL might be > closer to the language already understood by a young person. > > However, natural language is rarely rigorous, as many have pointed > out and attempting to add rigor to conversational natural languages > is probably folly. > > I submit that any high-level programming language--formal or natural-- > while a shortcut way to get a machine to "do something", obscures the > inner workings of a computer to such an extent as to give little clue > as to precisely how the thing operates. In particular, "structured > programming" elements can really hide inner workings. > > So, I propose that programming be taught first in machine language, > then assembly. That's how I learned to do it. I couldn't agree more! Then again, I have a sick love for COBOL... I very much enjoy the limitations it places on the programmer (especially COBOL-74!), and pride myself to still be able to write obfuscated code in such a chatty and readable language. But I cut my teeth on Z80 assembly, and there are many simulators available that'll get you writing low-level programs in no time at all, teaching valuable lessons about the basic workings of microprocessors. From there, you can go down to learning the gate level workings of computers, or up to learning the software side of things. ,xtG .tsooJ -- Dead end You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes to the east. In the distance you can see that it will eventually fork off. The trees here are very tall royal palms, and they are spaced equidistant from each other. There is a shovel here. >take shovel Taken. >eat shovel You forcefully shove a shovel down your throat, and start choking. You are dead. You have scored 0 out of a possible 90 points. -- Joost van de Griek From bqt at softjar.se Mon Nov 26 06:15:53 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:15:53 +0100 Subject: cAccess to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <200711260307.lAQ37ZZV024029@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711260307.lAQ37ZZV024029@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <474AB8F9.1070709@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" skrev: >> Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>>>> Jerome Fine replies: >>>>> Obviously, a SYSTEM request avoids all of the problems at a >>>>> heavy cost in overhead estimated at between 50 and 500 times >>>>> the above two examples. >>>>> >>>>> That was sort of what I was thinking about when I asked if >>>>> there was an "fast method (only a few instructions)" to >>>>> access an IOPAGE register. >>> >>> Well, in RSX, you have a rather high overhead to set up the >>> mappping to the I/O page, unless it's already mapped in when the >>> task starts. But from there on, there is no overhead at all. It's >>> located somewhere in your 16-bit address space. (Note that you >>> really don't have to map the I/O page at APR7 in RSX. You can get >>> it mapped anywhere if you use the CRAW$/MAP$ or TKB options.) >>> > > That is helpful information. There might be times when APR7 should > not be used. Might be, but I can't figure out when. But I guess if you wanted to map something else into memory as well (such as a shared library), which wasn't position independent, and which expected to be at APR7... I just mentioned it since it's technically no difference between any of the APRs for a user program. Anyway, the overhead of mapping in the I/O page is a one time cost. >> However, with normal privileged programs, the I/O page is always >> present at APR7 even if you don't do anything. > Also VERY helpful. However, if so, then would there be any reason > why APR7 could not be mapped to user memory in the normal manner so > that the user program has a full 65536 bytes of address space, but > then the PREVIOUS DATA space is mapped to KERNEL providing the user > with complete access to the IOPAGE registers via that 2 instruction > example that I gave at the beginning? I can't see that there would > be any greater loss of security since being able to change the IOPAGE > registers either directly or indirectly is just as damaging! > > Please comment? You can have a privileged program that isn't mapped to the I/O page. The problem is that the kernel sets the PSW at various times for you, so you cannot expect to be able to keep control of the previous mode field of the PSW from your program. RSX is multitasking. Things can change between one instruction and the next in your task. One typical mistake people might do is to manipulate the APR registers themself, just because they are accessible, and the program is privileged. This won't work, since a contect switch can occur at any time, and the APR registers are not preserved between context switches. Instead, they are recreated from scratch, based on your mapping context every time the task is selected to run. So in that case, it fails not because of security considerations, but because of system design. You need to have the I/O page mapped in properly. Put another way: RSX makes sure the previous mode field is set to user at every occasion the system have executed in kernel mode and goes back to user mode. That is a security design. To make this different for privileged programs would incur extra costs everywhere, whithout any real gain. Privileged programs can get around this "problem" anyway, but not by running in user mode and expecting the previous mode field to be set to kernel. >>>>>>>>> RSX had a bit more flexibility (opportunity) in this >>>>>>>>> regard. I believe you can set up a CRAW$ (create >>>>>>>>> address window) directive in either Macro or Fortran >>>>>>>>> to achieve the desired result. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes with reservation. CRAW$ (create address window) is as >>>>>>> a part of doing dynamic remapping of your address space. >>>>>>> However, CRAW$ always required a named memory partition. >>>>>>> You cannot create an address window to an arbitrary >>>>>>> memory address. Also, the memory partitions have >>>>>>> protections and ownership associated with them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On most systems, CRAW$ cannot get you access to the I/O >>>>>>> page, simply because normally you don't have an address >>>>>>> space and a partition associated with the I/O page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But if such a partition is created, then CRAW$, in >>>>>>> combination with MAP$ would allow you to access the I/O >>>>>>> page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The same thing can also be achieved even without >>>>>>> CRAW$/MAP$, since you can specify mapping that your task >>>>>>> should have already at task build time, with the COMMON >>>>>>> and RESCOM options to TKB. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This seems to be the answer if it is allowed. Obviously it >>>>> does require giving up that 8192 bytes the have APR7 mapped >>>>> to user space. >>> >>> Correct. > > But unnecessary if privileged jobs already have access to the IOPAGE. > > > Please comment? True, but that already implies that one APR is used. >>>>> There is also another option with E11 that I will make use of >>>>> when I have finished with the HD(X).SYS device driver for >>>>> RT-11. It turns out that if the memory is being accessed >>>>> sequentially, the average time to reference a single 16 bit >>>>> value in the file under: MOUNT HD: FOOBAR.DSK is actually >>>>> less than the time to get/store a single value under EMEM.DLL >>>>> when as few as 8 blocks (2048 words at a time) are being >>>>> referenced. Consequently, setting up a small 4096 byte buffer >>>>> and the associated code to handle to calls to the HD: device >>>>> driver (all standard calls to .ReadF and .WritF in RT-11) is >>>>> actually more efficient since after the values are in the >>>>> buffer inside the program, the values can be referenced and >>>>> modified at "emulated PDP-11" memory speeds. >>> >>> You mean that using a device driver, and a device that can access >>> the "normal" memory instead is better. Well, I'm not surprised. >>> What this essentially turns into, is that you're emulating DMA. > > Actually, under E11, it is almost identical in principle to the VM: > device driver which accesses "emulated normal PDP-11 extended > memory". The E11 command: MOUNT HD: RAM:/SIZE:number-of-blocks > makes HD: into a Virtual Memory device which directly uses PC memory. "Ram disk" is probably the word I'd use. > However, the average transfer rate per word for even a few blocks > (or a few thousand words) from/into emulated user memory is a small > fraction of > a normal memory access time. True. > In addition, if an operating system caches the blocks in a file, the > same speed is achieved. Not really. By using a ram disk, you don't need to run through the various layers of the operating system to deal with the system call and the device handling, even if that ends up just accessing a disk cache. >>>>> Of course, the above solution for sequential references does >>>>> not work when the references are random or when references >>>>> are at regular but very large intervals (thousands and even >>>>> millions of successive values). For this latter situation, >>>>> it may be possible to modify EMEM.DLL so that a single >>>>> reference to the IOPAGE register modifies all of the >>>>> specified values (over a range of up to many billions of >>>>> values). >>> >>> Can't comment much, since I don't know exactly what you're trying >>> to do. But speedwise, if you really want something to act like >>> fast disk, writing something that behaves like proper DMA is the >>> best. You give the device a memory address, a length, and a >>> destination address on the device, and let it process the data as >>> fast as it can, without involving the PDP-11 after that point. > > It is just a bit more complicated since the memory address can be > anywhere in the 4 MB of emulated PDP-11 memory. So 22 bit address is > required > - which can be determined during initialization. The even > better aspect is that the code (only about a dozen instructions which > set up the 6 IOPAGE registers) can be in user space which avoids the > overhead of a system call. Why limit yourself to 4 MB? If you have a device that gives you the storage, you can basically let if be of any size you want to. Johnny From ggama at coakleytech.com Mon Nov 26 13:56:14 2007 From: ggama at coakleytech.com (George Gama) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:56:14 -0600 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff Auction - More Items & Pictures Added Message-ID: <91BA58D71379BF4987E1B530CA9536350126BFD8@COAKEXCHG3.tpsc.coakleytech.com> Do you still have the Trace 5 5 1/4" duplicator? Thanks, George From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Mon Nov 26 15:14:54 2007 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:14:54 +0100 Subject: Cold booting an Apple III ? Message-ID: <474B374E.2090606@bluewin.ch> Is there a way to coldboot an apple III, if you do not have the SOS disks ? On the apple II you can do it via the serial interface and the Basic ROM, but the apple iii lacks these ROM's Jos DReesen From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 17:49:06 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:49:06 -0500 Subject: *updating* 8088's Message-ID: <0JS5006JW0E7JCDE@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: *updating* 8088's > From: Ray Arachelian > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:15:02 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> On Friday 23 November 2007 19:05, dwight elvey wrote: >> >>>> From: rtellason at verizon.net >>>> >>>> I notice that even those guys that are building relay computers "cheat" >>>> and use a single small solid-state chip for RAM. :-) >>>> >>> Hi >>> I've been thinking about how one could make a reasonable >>> memory, using small reed relays. If one puts a magnet close >>> to one end, it will cause the reed to close. Move it back >>> some and it will hold until the field is too weak. >>> >... >> >> Dunno if they still sell them or not, but Radio Shack used to sell a pack of >> 20 reed switches for only a couple of bucks... >> >> > >Hmm... Wonder if it's possible to build a relay without a spring on the >switch. That is, you have to send current with one polarity to set the >switch to a 1 and reverse polarity to set a zero - sort of what core >memory does with rings... I suppose this could instead be done by >attaching a magnet to the switch, or using magnet as the thing inside >the switch body, or better yet maybe a relay with a ball with a set of >contacts as the switch and two magnets, one on each opposite side... >you'd energize one coil for a "1" and the other for a "0" > >Hmm, could even be done with a solenoid and use the mechanical part of >it to touch a wire for output. :-) Wouldn't really be a relay, but >pretty close. Telco stepping switches. I have a few. Also you can get small relays that are dual coil, one to set and one to reset. Widely used in automatic antenna tuners to select L and C as needed to resonate an antenna for most any frequency. The idea of a latching relay is once set no more power is needed. Allison Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 22:05:27 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:05:27 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <0JS500C0YCOAKN43@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers... > From: woodelf > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:47:21 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> So, I propose that programming be taught first in machine language, >> then assembly. That's how I learned to do it. > >Real or fictional machine? Real, use PDP-8 it's simple enough and not too many instructions. > >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >PS. I bet with the right fictional machine, it could be a >easy step to building hardware. PISC Pitiful instruction set computer. A varient of TOY idea. There are others inlcusing a 4bitter. Allison From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Nov 26 23:46:26 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:46:26 -0000 Subject: Amiga TV Out Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I'm sure that I heard that some Commodore systems could do TV out and were in fact used to produce CGI stuff for 'Babylon Five" Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? Rod Smallwood From yahoo at dW.co.za Tue Nov 27 02:40:45 2007 From: yahoo at dW.co.za (Wouter) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:40:45 +0200 Subject: OT : CRT replacement In-Reply-To: <200711262226.lAQMPwVs035910@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071127103723.04d5fee0@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all >From: M H Stein > >If your friend is sure it's the CRT he/she must have had it apart; what's >the number, size, etc.? I havn't seen this animal myself, but questions yielded the following answers : CRT is marked with the following numbers : P/N95-P09122T001 P/N96/80396A98 AEG396512 D/14/390GH it could also be D/14/390GHB (None of these pop up on google). The size of the CRT is as follows; L: 360mm W: 100mm H: 125mm (I would regard these as approximate). Ideas, anyone? Thanks Wouter From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 27 08:43:57 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:43:57 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.l ocal> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071127082430.0533dc90@mail.threedee.com> At 11:46 PM 11/26/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I'm sure that I heard that some Commodore systems could do TV out >and were in fact used to produce CGI stuff for 'Babylon Five" >Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? Special effects makers strove for higher quality as the job demanded. Part of the appeal of the Amiga for special effects was the price of the 32-bit hardware and software. SGI hardware and software was an order of magnitude more expensive. NewTek's Lightwave was used by the Babylon 5 special effects group. I know they also used an early 3D Studio on a PC for some of the modeling. (And they used some of my software to convert between 3D file formats; as I recall, the spun shape of the original station was made that way.) Yes, the Amiga had the horsepower to play back animations of useful color depths in real-time. Depending on the image and the requirements, some special effects might even look OK with the straight TV-out. For example, the typical synthetic "computer display" in a cheesy sci-fi show. When you're filming an actor in front of an animation playing on a monitor, low-res is OK. More often for serious output, as in Babylon 5's case, they laid their bitmaps to an 8mm Exabyte tape as data files, then imported into an Abekas framebuffer that could play them back in real time. High quality, no generational loss every time you made an edit or copy. Straight TV-out wasn't a high-quality method of exporting video, though. In the early days, some people used single-frame video recorders to lay down a sequence of animation. This worked reasonably well, within NTSC generational limits. Later, some NewTek Video Toaster-based animators used its higher-quality framebuffer as the output to single-frame recordings. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 27 08:52:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:52:57 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474C2F49.5080909@yahoo.co.uk> Wow. Thanksgiving festivities got in the way, so I'm just catching up with the list again - I'm still reading messages, but thanks up-front for all the replies; there's some really useful stuff in there! :-) cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 08:55:43 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:55:43 +0000 Subject: Using a DB13W3 monitor on a PC Message-ID: <575131af0711270655j731556c4u97600cd84c0167a1@mail.gmail.com> (Since no-one seemed to notice this as a comment to an older thread...) I recently got given a decent 21" colour monitor with a DB13W3 connector on it. Never used one of these before. In the same pile of stuff was a Mac video connector to DB13 cable. I've tried this on an old Beige G3, and also via an SVGA-Mac convertor on a PC. It gives a good sharp picture, but on both systems, red and green were reversed. Does this mean my cable's incorrectly wired up or doesn't belong to this monitor, or is that something to do with using a DB13 monitor on a modern PC? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 27 08:59:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:59:53 -0600 Subject: SASI / SCSI bridge board availability (was: Re: SASI and XT/IDE info) In-Reply-To: <20071127015901.GC22053@usap.gov> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> <20071126175249.K50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127015901.GC22053@usap.gov> Message-ID: <474C30E9.5040307@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 05:54:21PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> There is one of those in the CBM 9060 and CBM 9090 drives. >> So, . . . >> an IBM PC SASI board would let you cable a CBM 90x0 drive to a PC? >> THAT seems like a good use. > > As long as the PC can handle 256-byte sectors... Out of interest, how obtainable are the SASI/SCSI <==> ST412 bridge boards (from the likes of OMTI / Adaptec / Xebec / Emulex)? I've got a pile I was going to ship over from the UK at some point as spares (various systems that I have use them) - but if they're still really easy to get then I guess I won't bother[1] and will just acquire a few within the US as it'll likely be cheaper. [1] The Xebec ones at least tended to have vendor-specific ROMs I think, so I'll have to make sure I have a working copy of the ROMs in my UK-side ones. cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Nov 27 09:10:37 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:10:37 -0600 Subject: Using a DB13W3 monitor on a PC In-Reply-To: <575131af0711270655j731556c4u97600cd84c0167a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0711270655j731556c4u97600cd84c0167a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <474C336D.90008@mdrconsult.com> Liam Proven wrote: > (Since no-one seemed to notice this as a comment to an older thread...) > > I recently got given a decent 21" colour monitor with a DB13W3 > connector on it. Never used one of these before. > > In the same pile of stuff was a Mac video connector to DB13 cable. > I've tried this on an old Beige G3, and also via an SVGA-Mac convertor > on a PC. It gives a good sharp picture, but on both systems, red and > green were reversed. > > Does this mean my cable's incorrectly wired up or doesn't belong to > this monitor, or is that something to do with using a DB13 monitor on > a modern PC? I wouldn't say the cable is wired incorrectly; it's just not wired for that connection. DB13W3 has been used with a lot of different pinouts. I have used several monitors with 13W3 connectors on both PCs and late-model Macs. There are a lot of cables and adapters floating around for HD15-DB13W3 connections. The only one I've seen (not a valid sample set!) that won't work is a black Dell cable. One of their 17" workstation tubes was 13W3, and not a standard pinout at all. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 27 09:18:48 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:18:48 -0500 Subject: Using a DB13W3 monitor on a PC References: <575131af0711270655j731556c4u97600cd84c0167a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003801c83108$cf88fd60$42aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:55 AM Subject: Using a DB13W3 monitor on a PC > (Since no-one seemed to notice this as a comment to an older thread...) > > I recently got given a decent 21" colour monitor with a DB13W3 > connector on it. Never used one of these before. > > In the same pile of stuff was a Mac video connector to DB13 cable. > I've tried this on an old Beige G3, and also via an SVGA-Mac convertor > on a PC. It gives a good sharp picture, but on both systems, red and > green were reversed. > > Does this mean my cable's incorrectly wired up or doesn't belong to > this monitor, or is that something to do with using a DB13 monitor on > a modern PC? > > -- I think it depends on the monitor you have and the video card/system you are using. A Google search (newsgroup posts not the web) turned this up: http://groups.google.com/group/oh.forsale/browse_thread/thread/4f2ed0a58715350e/bdda95cd0336b3a4?lnk=st&q=13w3+red+and+green+reversed#bdda95cd0336b3a4 The poster commented on how a specific SUN monitor (Sun GDM 1662B ) had the red and green switched to conform to Mac specs. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 27 09:37:07 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:37:07 -0800 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2007 9:46 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I'm sure that I heard that some Commodore systems could do TV out > and were in fact used to produce CGI stuff for 'Babylon Five" CGI type stuff was done on a "Video Toaster" which was additional hardware in an Amiga 2000 (or later) Only the first season of Bablyon used Amiga's however. The hardware was getting dated by Season 2. > Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? Both. There's some additional info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Toaster Eric From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 27 09:46:17 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:46:17 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > On Saturday 24 November 2007 12:39, dwight elvey wrote: >>> From: rtellason at verizon.net >>> >>> >>> Speaking of which, I have a vague recollection of "Tiny BASIC". Never did >>> actually use it, though. Any of you guys familiar with it? Is it all that >>> usable? At all extensible? I can see where it might be handy for some >>> stuff... >> >> Hi >> A search on the web will show a couple of listing of a version of Palo >> Alto Tiny BASIC that I posted years ago. It was slighly modified from the >> original to allow on to expand it. It had I/O for the Poly88 but it could >> be easily connected to any serial streams terminal. >> It fit in 2 2708s which was great for the Poly88. > > Which works out just fine for the 2716s being the smallest part my programmer > can handle. :-) > ---snip--- Hi I looked up one of the pointers to the files on the web. You can find a listing file, some docs and two binary images for this version of TinyBasic at: http://www.microplexus.net/projects/z80/prog/general/devel_tools_langs/basic/Poly88-TinyBASIC/ If you deside to use this code, I can dig up the code I wrote for PEEK and POKE. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.? Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 27 10:22:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:22:28 -0500 Subject: SASI / SCSI bridge board availability (was: Re: SASI and XT/IDE info) In-Reply-To: <474C30E9.5040307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> <20071126175249.K50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127015901.GC22053@usap.gov> <474C30E9.5040307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6101B50D-DFB1-4C59-B614-651ACB2C82CD@neurotica.com> On Nov 27, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, how obtainable are the SASI/SCSI <==> ST412 bridge > boards (from the likes of OMTI / Adaptec / Xebec / Emulex)? > > I've got a pile I was going to ship over from the UK at some point > as spares (various systems that I have use them) - but if they're > still really easy to get then I guess I won't bother[1] and will > just acquire a few within the US as it'll likely be cheaper. > > [1] The Xebec ones at least tended to have vendor-specific ROMs I > think, so I'll have to make sure I have a working copy of the ROMs > in my UK-side ones. The Emulex MD21 and Adaptec ACB4000, both very nice boards used on earlier Sun systems, used to be quite common but seem to have dried up in recent years...I've not seen one in the wild for quite a while. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Nov 27 10:42:04 2007 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:42:04 +0100 Subject: Symbolics 1200XL In-Reply-To: <474BBDB3.2050403@gmail.com> References: <4744398E.2010409@yahoo.co.uk> <474BA119.8090901@saw.net> <474BA53D.5080507@jetnet.ab.ca> <474BA85E.9070701@mainecoon.com> <474BBDB3.2050403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071127164204.GC21770@thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 01:48:19AM -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chris Kennedy wrote: > >>What is a Symbolics 1200XZL ... I got the feeling it is lisp from that > >>name? > > > >It's a Lisp machine based on the single-chip Ivory VLSI implementation. > > HP did the actual fab in 2, 1.5 and ultimately one micron CMOS. > > > >Figure at least twice as fast as a 3600 class machine and a lot smaller. > > Would decidedly be a fun toy to have. > > I'm wondering how a machine like this would compare performance-wise to > a new design using a Symbolics-compatible LISP machine blown into a > top-end FPGA. Would it easily fit? Would it perform well? There are people working on something like this: http://vaxbusters.org/workshop/secd.xml Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 10:47:52 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:47:52 -0500 Subject: Edge connectors (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <20071126232850.GB20850@usap.gov> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711261342.36338.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071126232850.GB20850@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200711271147.52465.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 26 November 2007 18:28, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 01:42:36PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Saturday 24 November 2007 23:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The User Port on all the C= machines is more-or-less the same... 12x2 > > > 0.154" edge connectors. > > > > I thought those were 0.156"? > > Oops... my fingers were probably thinking 25.4mm to the inch when I > mistyped the 4. > > > I'm trying to remember what all edge connectors used to be common. I'm > > thinking that 0.1", 0.125", and 0.156" were some of the more common > > sizes of connector finger out there. > > Those all sound common. > > > And how many pins? > > Various ones... For the C= line, 6/12 and 12/24 were common (cassette > port, User Port, IEEE-488), but the VIC-20 had a 22/44 @ 0.156" expansion > connector. The C-64 was much smaller, but I can't reliably recall the > numbers off the top of my head, so I won't guess. I *think* that was also a 44-pin connector, but at smaller spacing. I'd have to look to be sure though. > > Seemed to me there was an awful lot of stuff out there that used 22/44 > > pins of 0.156" spacing. > > Very common. Yes, Radio Shack even used to sell boards that were set up for that connector, and the connectors themselves, in both soldertail and wire-wrap versions. I have a rackmount box somewhere that has room for a bunch of those, though it won't take the very tall cards. > My COSMAC VIP has a pair of those (one for memory, one for I/O expansion), > and there was a standard RCA CPU board that used it as its off-board bus > connector. There was the STD bus, and I'm sure many more examples from the > 1970s and 1980s. I'm thinking STD bus was more pins, 56 maybe? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 11:05:31 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:05:31 -0500 Subject: Small 4-pen plotters was Re: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711271205.31521.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 26 November 2007 18:39, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, remember those little 4-pen plotters that Radio Shack used > in the CGP115, Commoodore used in the 1520, etc, etc, etc. The pen > up/down solenoid in those is magnetically-latched. A pulse of one > polarity puts the pane on to the paper, a pulse of the other polarity > lifts it off again. Speaking of those, I have somewhere one of those that is branded IBM. It's missing a power supply, and the connector where said supply goes in is a bit odd, not something I recall ever seeing anywhere else. Anybody know where I might pursue some info on that thing? I'm thinking that at worst I can probably hard-wire something into it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 11:09:53 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:09:53 -0500 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200711271209.53243.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 26 November 2007 20:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've often mused about investigating the 90x0 firmware to see if it's > possible/reasonable to make the "DOS Board" speak SCSI rather than SASI, > but that's one of those long-term projects that just hasn't come up in > the queue yet. How much of a difference is there between the two, really? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 11:30:32 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:30:32 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <20071126232108.GA20850@usap.gov> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <474A5C97.8050404@oldskool.org> <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> <4affc5e0711260828p4f7217e4w2e57e9778528eb2d@mail.gmail.com> <20071126232108.GA20850@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4affc5e0711270930i1dccbb15nea0164a8517f40d3@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 26, 2007 6:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Unfortunately, the Sidecar has not survived the long years. It still > > sort of works but does not boot up properly anymore, the floppy drive > > shows a solid LED. I still have the full length MFM controller card > > and the HD. > > That should be diagnosable. You might be able to stick a video card > in the Sidecar rather than depend on the Janus libs for mapped video, > and see what it's trying to do. Yes, I'm thinking of trying that. I think I still have an old 8-bit ISA mono card and appropriate monitor kicking around somewhere (though my 1084(?) with the C128-80col cable could work). Janus puts up a PC screen with distorted characters that look like a BIOS boot screen (all characters squeezed down to 2 lines or so) > No Gary in an A1000... Gary appeared first in the A500 and A2000. My mistake, I blame early-onset Alzheimer's. Or too much alcohol during engineering undergrad. > Sorry... not anywhere close to Montreal, even when I'm home, and I've never > owned a Sidecar. As for a mouse, try opening up an A500/A2000 mouse or two > to see if you could transplant the cable. The actual mouse innards are > simple - it transmits raw quadrature plus the 2 buttons over the DE9 - all > the work is done in the Amiga, unlike a "modern" PC mouse (but very much > like an old Microsoft "bus mouse"). I don't have a 500/2000 mouse unfortunately, tough I could probably look on ePay for one. I have a third-party mouse - I think I bought it as a replacement for the pregnant mouse that came with my 3000. (Still have that one too, working - both the mouse and the 3000) The third-party mouse looks like a generic mouse for that time (mid 90's) but has 3 buttons - handy for when I was using NetBSD (0.9 or so) on my 3000. Hmmmmm - X11 on 640x480 (or was that 400?) with 5megs of ram (4 fast, 1 chip)... Joe. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 11:27:10 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:27:10 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <009f01c830ac$6b5cef60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711261421.55018.rtellason@verizon.net> <009f01c830ac$6b5cef60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 26 November 2007 23:17, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >> Also, full schematic diagrams for the machine were included > >>in the "Programmer's Reference Guide". > > > > For one version of it, yeah. There were at least four different > >versions of the boards out there.... > > Good point. > > But I still feel that the schematic which was published would be a useful > learning aid despite this. It would only make a difference if you were > going to hack around inside the machine itseelf, which may or may not be an > issue. True. Giving the details of what was connected to all of the connectors was a lot of what was useful about it. > >....Another was RAM, the later boards used two 64Kx4 parts instead > >of eight 64Kx1, and the very latest ones I saw combined two of the > >ROMs (Kernel and BASIC?) into one single chip. > > I'd assumed that all 64Cs had the combined Kernel/BASIC ROM, was this not > the case? > > Likewise, I was under the impression that the move to a pair of 64K*4 DRAMs > also came about with the advent of the C-64C.... Not really, though it was more often the case than not. The major difference between those new cases and the old was the difference in the way the keyboard was mounted. The old-style cases had eight screws holding the keyboard to the top of the case, while the newer ones had the keyboard mounted to the bottom half, over some metal support brackets. If you had a new case and wanted that style but wanted to use your old parts otherwise, you'd need those brackets. And they were different for a couple of different form factors-- the later boards with higher density were narrower, front-to-back, than the older ones were. Now that I'm thinking about it a bit further, I also have this vague recollection of them combining the PLA chip with a bunch of the glue TTL and making it even simpler yet, though since the PLA was a common failure part it made it more difficult to repair. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 11:37:35 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:37:35 -0500 Subject: FD400 drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711271237.35260.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 November 2007 07:55, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I also want to check the drive RPM. I found a program for the Model 100 and > bar code reader which turns it into a stroboscope, but I wanted to validate > it on a working drive, so I have to pull out a TM100 drive. But, alas, I > haven't had time for that in the last few days, either. I'm going to try to > do that today. Now _that_ is a nifty idea! I have a couple of those "cue cat" scanners that Radio Shack was giving away some time back, and also recently aquired a similar device, and since I'm not in the habit of going around putting barcodes on stuff here I hadn't thought that I had a particular use for them. But printing a strobe disc or even a wraparound barcode for rim or shaft speed measurement sounds like it might definitely be useful... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 11:43:23 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:43:23 -0800 Subject: Edge connectors (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <200711271147.52465.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711261342.36338.rtellason@verizon.net> <20071126232850.GB20850@usap.gov> <200711271147.52465.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90711270943v33879ac0x2a2e3609a43a44e4@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2007 8:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I'm thinking STD bus was more pins, 56 maybe? > 56 pins appears to be correct for STD BUS. http://www.winsystems.com/specs/std_section1.pdf http://www.winsystems.com/specs/std_section2.pdf http://www.winsystems.com/specs/std_16bit.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 27 11:47:48 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:47:48 -0800 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info Message-ID: <474C5844.4070705@bitsavers.org> > How much of a difference is there between the two, really? The big difference is the addition of bus disconnect/reconnect in SCSI. SASI devices hogged the bus until a transaction completed, which didn't work well for high latency operations like tape seeks/rewinds. An NCR 5380 SCSI controller will work fine with SASI devices. At one point it was easy to find them on ISA cards, haven't looked lately. Mixing SASI/SCSI on the same bus is problematic if the SCSI devices try to disconnect. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 27 11:52:36 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:52:36 -0800 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <474C5844.4070705@bitsavers.org> References: <474C5844.4070705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <474C5964.1070900@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > > How much of a difference is there between the two, really? > > The big difference is the addition of bus disconnect/reconnect in SCSI. > SASI devices hogged the bus until a transaction completed, which didn't > work well for high latency operations like tape seeks/rewinds. > > An NCR 5380 SCSI controller will work fine with SASI devices. At one > point it was easy to find them on ISA cards, haven't looked lately. > > Mixing SASI/SCSI on the same bus is problematic if the SCSI devices try to > disconnect. > > I left a sentence out of that.. If you write your own software for the 5380, you can control SASI devices. You just don't use the features (like disconnect/reconnect) that SCSI implemented. The 5380 is a very dumb device, and doesn't do any of the bus protocol in hardware. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 27 11:52:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:52:39 -0600 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <200711271209.53243.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> <200711271209.53243.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474C5967.4030907@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 26 November 2007 20:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I've often mused about investigating the 90x0 firmware to see if it's >> possible/reasonable to make the "DOS Board" speak SCSI rather than SASI, >> but that's one of those long-term projects that just hasn't come up in >> the queue yet. > > How much of a difference is there between the two, really? I think there was an extra protocol phase added for SCSI, plus parity support crept in at some point, as did a few extra commands (e.g. 'basic' stuff like Inquiry). I don't think there's a clear definition between SCSI and SASI though, as some early devices calling themselves SCSI are pretty broken by modern definitions of the standard. From scratch, it'd be possible to make a dual-purpose SCSI/SASI interface I think - but taking someone else's SASI interface and hacking on the extra logic necessary for SCSI might be more tricky. Chris - you probably have something quite unique there. Whilst things calling themselves SASI interfaces are common in old 8-bitters, this is the first I've heard of one for the PC... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 27 12:08:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:08:32 -0800 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <474C5967.4030907@yahoo.co.uk> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com>, <200711271209.53243.rtellason@verizon.net>, <474C5967.4030907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <474BECA0.10266.579C0CAE@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2007 at 11:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris - you probably have something quite unique there. Whilst things calling > themselves SASI interfaces are common in old 8-bitters, this is the first I've > heard of one for the PC... The Ampex Megastore for the 5150 interfaced to both a hard disk and a tape drive (both in an external cabinet). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 27 12:11:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:11:31 -0800 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <474C5844.4070705@bitsavers.org> References: <474C5844.4070705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <474BED53.18737.579EC5DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2007 at 9:47, Al Kossow wrote: > An NCR 5380 SCSI controller will work fine with SASI devices. At one > point it was easy to find them on ISA cards, haven't looked lately. > > Mixing SASI/SCSI on the same bus is problematic if the SCSI devices try to > disconnect. Be aware that most SASI devices have very limited command support, so that you're not likely to be able to use any remotely modern driver with these things. Cheers, Chuck From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Tue Nov 27 12:16:15 2007 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:16:15 -0500 Subject: VCF 10.0 and a Stride 460 Restoration project Message-ID: <32185288.55761196187375576.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Hello, I exhibited some of my Sage and Stride computers, manuals, datasheets, newsletters and software at the Vintage Computer Festival 10.0. It was an exciting and rewarding event and I'm looking forward to the next one. I took some pictures and video. I've uploaded the pictures, the video will follow soon. VCF 10.0 pictures: http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/561582429RvEsQG?vhost=entertainment One of the Sage Computer Technology founders, Rod Coleman, gave a talk about the early days of Sage Computer Technology and some of the Stride Micro story. Sellam let me add one of his computers to my exhibit, a Stride 440 (http://www.sageandstride.org/html/stride_440.html). During the show a really interesting guy came to visit my exhibit and he told me about his experiences with Sage and Stride computers. He still has the original systems he used for development in the 80's. More on that interesting story later ... He has a couple Sage IV's (in beautiful condition) and a Stride 460 tower!! (http://www.sageandstride.org/html/stride_460.html) I've been looking for a Stride tower for quite a while. Recently, he let me get my grubby hands on the Stride 460 tower and I've been restoring it. It was not in the best condition when I picked up the pieces. I've documented the process with tons of pictures that I've uploaded for others to enjoy. I'm not finished with the project. I'm hoping to get the system fully operational and then retrieve the data from the hard drive. I've pulled the hard drive from the system and substituted another MFM drive until I've figured out the safest method for retrieving the old data. I'll be asking for advice on that topic soon. I think the original drive has Idris installed. Here are links to the pictures of the Stride 460 system: Disassembly: http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/561576298tAcFSb?vhost=entertainment Cleaning: http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/561577961QEgBvM?vhost=entertainment Reassembly: http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/561575340kcreuM?vhost=entertainment Booting: http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/561575350zNSULy?vhost=entertainment Stride 460 datasheet: http://www.sageandstride.org/html/stride_460.html Any suggestions on how to carefully check if an old MFM drive is still operational, without damaging it, are appreciated. The drive has some oxidation on the exterior and it appears to have been stored in an occasionally damp location. Regards, david. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - David W. Erhart daviderhart at hotmail.com daviderhart at oldzonian.com http://www.sageandstride.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 27 12:28:47 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:28:47 -0700 Subject: Adventure games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474C61DF.7030905@jetnet.ab.ca> Joost van de Griek wrote: Dead end You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes to the east. In the distance you can see that it will eventually fork off. The trees here are very tall royal palms, and they are spaced equidistant from each other. There is a shovel here. Forget the shovel ... I want to see the babes under the palm trees. :) BTW I wonder why I never can win at these games. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 27 12:37:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:37:04 -0500 Subject: Adventure games In-Reply-To: <474C61DF.7030905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <474C61DF.7030905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 27, 2007, at 1:28 PM, woodelf wrote: > Joost van de Griek wrote: > > Dead end > You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes to the east. > In the distance you can see that it will eventually fork off. The > trees here are very tall royal palms, and they are spaced equidistant > from each other. > There is a shovel here. > > Forget the shovel ... I want to see the babes under the palm trees. :) > BTW I wonder why I never can win at these games. You want to see babes under palm trees? I've got that right down the street...move to Florida, man! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 27 13:00:53 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:00:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I'm sure that I heard that some Commodore systems could do TV out > and were in fact used to produce CGI stuff for 'Babylon Five" > Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? I don't know about PAL. To do anything significant, you will want at least a Genlock unit (I had one on my 1000), or maybe even Video Toaster. TCI Bay Cablevision (Berkeley and Richmond) used to have a TV guide channel. It would sometimes crash, and display a "Guru Meditation Number" instead. I heard that the Video Toaster people actually got HOSTILE reactions from some Mac fanatics, so they made a BIG box containing a video toaster and an Amiga, and sold that as a "Macintosh peripheral". From James at jdfogg.com Tue Nov 27 13:16:38 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:16:38 -0500 Subject: Adventure games Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A257125@sbs.jdfogg.com> > You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes to the east. > In the distance you can see that it will eventually fork off. > The trees here are very tall royal palms, and they are > spaced equidistant from each other. > There is a shovel here. > > Forget the shovel ... I want to see the babes under the palm > trees. :) BTW I wonder why I never can win at these games. Wrong game dude, you want Leisure Suit Larry! James - "All lies and jest, still the man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" From James at jdfogg.com Tue Nov 27 13:16:38 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:16:38 -0500 Subject: Adventure games Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A257125@sbs.jdfogg.com> > You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes to the east. > In the distance you can see that it will eventually fork off. > The trees here are very tall royal palms, and they are > spaced equidistant from each other. > There is a shovel here. > > Forget the shovel ... I want to see the babes under the palm > trees. :) BTW I wonder why I never can win at these games. Wrong game dude, you want Leisure Suit Larry! James - "All lies and jest, still the man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 27 12:52:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:52:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071127104239.V928@shell.lmi.net> > So, I propose that programming be taught first in machine language, > then assembly. That's how I learned to do it. EAM first! There's nothing like "cardboard technology" to demystify the whole thing. "How can you use an 08x sorter (one column at a time) to efficiently arrange a large deck of cards with a sequence number in 73 through 80?" "Wire a plug board for an interpreter to print last name, then first name, that have fields in the middle of the card, flush left." "Use a 407? accounting machine to print results directly onto a form 1040." "Use a Gerber Data Digitizer ("Etch-a-sketch") to make a deck of cards with a risque picture." OK, NOW write machine language. (1401 emulator on a 1620)? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 27 13:18:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:18:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <474C5967.4030907@yahoo.co.uk> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126164449.B50829@shell.lmi.net> <20071127011713.GA22053@usap.gov> <200711271209.53243.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C5967.4030907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20071127111751.D928@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris - you probably have something quite unique there. Whilst things calling > themselves SASI interfaces are common in old 8-bitters, this is the first I've > heard of one for the PC... I had a DTC one. From spc at conman.org Tue Nov 27 13:44:36 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:44:36 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711271053.FAA22856@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <795026.44407.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <200711231830.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> <200711261311.46278.rtellason@verizon.net> <359ca1b33bb222a9e57cf4efa23d8eab@neurotica.com> <200711271053.FAA22856@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20071127194436.GA24511@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > Type checking is that last straw for many. It can't be a high level > > language if it wasn't type checked, could it? Does type checking > > really produce better error free code? > > In my experience, it does, other things being equal. Which of course > they rarely are - has anyone built what for lack of a better term I > might call a typechecked FORTH engine? I don't really know FORTH as > well as I'd like, but my impression is that doing that would require > enough infrastructure that it would border on reinventing PostScript > (minus the rendering stuff, of course). I did something like that in college. It had the benefit that I could automatically determine which version of a word to apply (int_plus to add ints, double_plus to add floats, string_plus to concatenate strings). But adding such type information doubled the size of the stack, but it wasn't that bad a trade off, even when I did it a dozen years ago (Unix workstation). -spc (Even made a Unix shell in the language, but the fact that I don't use it should say something about it ... ) From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 27 13:55:57 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:55:57 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711261421.55018.rtellason@verizon.net> <009f01c830ac$6b5cef60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Not really, though it was more often the case than not. The major difference > between those new cases and the old was the difference in the way the > keyboard was mounted. The old-style cases had eight screws holding the > keyboard to the top of the case, while the newer ones had the keyboard > mounted to the bottom half, over some metal support brackets. If you had a > new case and wanted that style but wanted to use your old parts otherwise, > you'd need those brackets. And they were different for a couple of different > form factors-- the later boards with higher density were narrower, > front-to-back, than the older ones were. > A lot of us did this sort of conversion later in the game. My primary C64 is such a mod, sitting here next to me. Even though the board revs for the earlier C64C were not terribly different, CBM started soldering the ROMs in, making mods like JiffyDOS and such much harder to do. Now, of course, I'd just cut the traces, desolder the pin remnants, and solder in a socket, but this was when I still used my 64 for everything (even college term papers), and I was less sure I could pull such a stunt off. So, I transplanted the 64 board into the C, and no one was the wiser. Cheap the unit may have been and may be, but I am very hard on stuff, and this baby has traveled to college and back 5 times, moved to 3 different houses, and not very carefully in any of those moves, either. Works fine every time I start it up. The original black brick power supply, OTOH, was cheap and unreliable. If anyone does consider a 64 or VIC for children, find a 1764 replacement power supply or some aftermarket one. However, when all the units are on at the desk here (4 of them), the bricks do keep one's toes nice and toasty. :-o Jim From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 13:59:15 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:59:15 -0500 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <474C5967.4030907@yahoo.co.uk> References: <400454.64449.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271209.53243.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C5967.4030907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200711271459.16214.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 November 2007 12:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 26 November 2007 20:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I've often mused about investigating the 90x0 firmware to see if it's > >> possible/reasonable to make the "DOS Board" speak SCSI rather than SASI, > >> but that's one of those long-term projects that just hasn't come up in > >> the queue yet. > > > > How much of a difference is there between the two, really? > > I think there was an extra protocol phase added for SCSI, plus parity > support crept in at some point, as did a few extra commands (e.g. 'basic' > stuff like Inquiry). I don't think there's a clear definition between SCSI > and SASI though, as some early devices calling themselves SCSI are pretty > broken by modern definitions of the standard. > > From scratch, it'd be possible to make a dual-purpose SCSI/SASI interface > I think - but taking someone else's SASI interface and hacking on the extra > logic necessary for SCSI might be more tricky. Mostly I was thinking about the fact that my BigBoard II has a SASI port on it, and how I have this whole *pile* of "small" SCSI drives (2G mostly) and how much room that'd be on one of those. All I'd need is to add an EPROM with some code in it to boot the thing, and I could do just about anything I wanted to from there. Get the right CRC in there and the BBII rom hands control off to it automatically... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 27 14:15:42 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:15:42 -0800 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711261421.55018.rtellason@verizon.net> <009f01c830ac$6b5cef60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> Message-ID: At 1:55 PM -0600 11/27/07, Jim Brain wrote: >The original black brick power supply, OTOH, was cheap and >unreliable. If anyone does consider a 64 or VIC for children, find >a 1764 replacement power supply or some aftermarket one. Wouldn't that be good advice for *anyone* wanting to use a C64? Recently I was able to pick up a "Phoenix CPS-10" off eBay and the next day was given a Tenex PS for the C128. Question on the original black bricks, do all of them have a Commodore symbol on them, or is the "Recoton" I have a 3rd party supply? I believe all of my bricks are "Recoton's". Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 14:27:26 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:27:26 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 November 2007 14:55, Jim Brain wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Not really, though it was more often the case than not. The major > > difference between those new cases and the old was the difference in the > > way the keyboard was mounted. The old-style cases had eight screws > > holding the keyboard to the top of the case, while the newer ones had > > the keyboard mounted to the bottom half, over some metal support > > brackets. If you had a new case and wanted that style but wanted to use > > your old parts otherwise, you'd need those brackets. And they were > > different for a couple of different form factors-- the later boards with > > higher density were narrower, front-to-back, than the older ones were. > > A lot of us did this sort of conversion later in the game. My primary > C64 is such a mod, sitting here next to me. Even though the board revs > for the earlier C64C were not terribly different, CBM started soldering > the ROMs in, making mods like JiffyDOS and such much harder to do. Now, > of course, I'd just cut the traces, desolder the pin remnants, and > solder in a socket, but this was when I still used my 64 for everything > (even college term papers), and I was less sure I could pull such a > stunt off. So, I transplanted the 64 board into the C, and no one was > the wiser. When we had the shop there were a whole lot of times that you couldn't tell which chip was bad without trying a new one in there, and the dropping prices of the machines made wholesale replacement of parts impractical, so it was a policy of mine to *always* unsolder the chip and put a socket in there. Over the years that I worked on that stuff I noticed that c= had *no* apparent patter to which chips were soldered in place and which were socketed. It varied a lot. Sometimes one of the ROMs (not always the same one), sometimes all three, sometimes one CIA or the other or both. It varied... > Cheap the unit may have been and may be, but I am very hard on stuff, > and this baby has traveled to college and back 5 times, moved to 3 > different houses, and not very carefully in any of those moves, either. > Works fine every time I start it up. They were fairly robust little machines for the most part, with one or two minor exceptions. > The original black brick power supply, OTOH, was cheap and unreliable. Yup! I accumulated such a pile of those at one point (I used to point to it to try and sell people on the idea of an aftermarket supply) that I thought at one point that it might be worth building a "modern art sculpture" out of them and some epoxy and planting it on the lawn down there in West Chester. :-) > If anyone does consider a 64 or VIC for children, find a 1764 > replacement power supply or some aftermarket one. 1764? With the VIC20, I find the two-pin power connection to be the preferable one. > However, when all the units are on at the desk here (4 of them), the > bricks do keep one's toes nice and toasty. :-o Heh. That's pretty much of what all they were good for. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Nov 27 14:29:54 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:29:54 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200711271529.54357.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 November 2007 15:15, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:55 PM -0600 11/27/07, Jim Brain wrote: > >The original black brick power supply, OTOH, was cheap and > >unreliable. If anyone does consider a 64 or VIC for children, find > >a 1764 replacement power supply or some aftermarket one. > > Wouldn't that be good advice for *anyone* wanting to use a C64? > Recently I was able to pick up a "Phoenix CPS-10" off eBay and the > next day was given a Tenex PS for the C128. The CPS-10 was the one we usually sold. > Question on the original black bricks, do all of them have a > Commodore symbol on them, or is the "Recoton" I have a 3rd party > supply? I believe all of my bricks are "Recoton's". Are those potted as well? There were some real early ones that weren't, that had a small set of vents on the two halves of the case. Those also had no particular strain relief on the DIN connector either, so it usually wasn't holding on to the jacket of that cable at all. They weren't too bad, though why they used an oddball regulator instead of the more common 7805 part I don't know. And if anyone's repairing one of those and putting a 7805 in, you need to cross two of the leads to that regulator by comparison with the original. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 27 15:19:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:19:01 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071127104239.V928@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20071127104239.V928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474C1945.16418.584A7203@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2007 at 10:52, Fred Cisin wrote: > EAM first! There's nothing like "cardboard technology" to demystify the > whole thing. "How can you use an 08x sorter (one column at a time) to > efficiently arrange a large deck of cards with a sequence number in 73 > through 80?" "Wire a plug board for an interpreter to print last name, > then first name, that have fields in the middle of the card, flush left." > "Use a 407? accounting machine to print results directly onto a form > 1040." "Use a Gerber Data Digitizer ("Etch-a-sketch") to make a deck of > cards with a risque picture." Eh, I don't think that learning to wire a plugboard for a 407 or 514 or even a 557 taught me much about computer operation. It was more like learning to divide on a comptometer. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 26 17:32:49 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:32:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <782429.16243.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> No, sorry. I prefer the Amiga 600, even though many consider it to be the runt of the litter. However, it's the only Amiga (other than the A1200) to have a PCMCIA slot which has proven to be useful to me. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: does anyone operate one of these? That is does anyone favor this machine over any of the later models? Commercially ISTR it being a flop, so that might seem like a strange question, but there is no lack of strange birds on this list. If you know what I mean LOL LOL! Hey maybe I'm stranger then the rest of you birds LOL LOL LOL! anyhow interested in the thoughts that find this unit particularly enjoyable. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 27 16:23:51 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:23:51 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > When we had the shop there were a whole lot of times that you couldn't tell > which chip was bad without trying a new one in there, and the dropping > prices of the machines made wholesale replacement of parts impractical, so it > was a policy of mine to *always* unsolder the chip and put a socket in there. > In the interest of full disclosure, I remember the ROM chips were always socketed, but my many "educational" endeavors on the machine (and the occasional lightning strike through the modem telephone line) caused a number of trips to the service center for repairs. The place that got all of my business (Micro Pace Computers in Champaign, IL, later called Keepin' Pace Computers) applied your rule, so my SID, CIAs, and RAM ended up socketed, making my machine very valuable. > 1764? With the VIC20, I find the two-pin power connection to be the > preferable one. > Yes, if you have the 2 prong VIC, it's solid, as the regulation and such is done internally. Though, 2 pin units seem to not be as common, as CBM switched over to DIN pretty early on. Thus, many folks guard those machines and the PS units. I assumed an everyday VIC user has their 2 prong unit boxed, as I do, and messes with things on a later DIN unit. All that said, the VIC had lower power usage and tended to not have an expansion port extended with multiple items drawing power, so I never had a VIC PS fail per se. But, the near max draw of the 64 (they re-used the VIC PS design and specs for the 64, as I recall), coupled with the plethora of expansion options for the 64, overburdened the struggling supply. To be fair, it's entirely possible the PS was fine and would live a reasonable life attached to a bone stock 64. No one actually owned a bone stock 64 for very long, though. Once you had overloaded them, it seemed only a matter of time before they would fail. To try to add some new information, the VIC/64 joysticks should not be overlooked for small IO projects for kids. DE9 female sockets are easy to find, and there's Vcc, GND, 5 pins of IO and 2 pins of 8 bit ADC available for the taking per port. In fact, using both ports with a bit of ML and a nice BASIC program, you could make a nice electronics trainer for possibly multiple machines (It looks like the Atari variants had true joystick IO ports, but I know very little about the Apple and TI units. Google says Atari created such a trainer for their 400/800 units, so the idea held some merit. Quite honestly, that is a neat idea, and one that would be easy to implement. If there's some interest, let me know. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From davis at saw.net Tue Nov 27 16:49:17 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:49:17 -0800 Subject: Adventure games In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A257125@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A257125@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <474C9EED.1080000@saw.net> James Fogg wrote: >> You are at a dead end of a dirt road. The road goes to the east. >> In the distance you can see that it will eventually fork off. >> The trees here are very tall royal palms, and they are >> spaced equidistant from each other. >> There is a shovel here. >> >> Forget the shovel ... I want to see the babes under the palm >> trees. :) BTW I wonder why I never can win at these games. >> > > Wrong game dude, you want Leisure Suit Larry! > > > James - > > "All lies and jest, still the man hears what he wants to hear and > disregards the rest" > > > > Find the big W ;) Jim Davis. From davis at saw.net Tue Nov 27 16:56:15 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:56:15 -0800 Subject: Symbolics XL400/1200 Message-ID: <474CA08F.60002@saw.net> The machine is available in Portland Or or preferably, up the gorge in Goldendale Wa. which is located about 100 miles east of Portland. The machine could be shipped, but it would require a pallet for the case, foam for the monitor and separate packing for the drive and boards. I'm not sure how much it's worth. I have had an offer for $370. So I guess thats a start. The system includes the mono hi-res graphics monitor, space cadet keyboard, full document (user) set, but no hardware prints (sorry) and a frame tosser board. I'll throw in a couple bus mice, but they will need to be rewired. I'll fire it up and verify that it still boots. (it did 6 months ago) If you pick it up in goldendale, I'll let you dig around in my shed for other goodies. The machine is badged as a XL400 but boot reports a XL1200. I assume it's the extra memory and possibly software upgrades. It has been stored inside, in a clean dry environment since I picked it up about 7 years ago. Jim Davis. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 17:03:10 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:03:10 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> On 11/27/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > TCI Bay Cablevision (Berkeley and Richmond) used to have a TV guide > channel. It would sometimes crash, and display a "Guru Meditation Number" > instead. That happened frequently on y cablesystem (whoever NW Suburban Chicago had in the early 90s) as well. Once I even got to watch them create the new slides (in Scala, I think) over the air :) > I heard that the Video Toaster people actually got HOSTILE reactions from > some Mac fanatics, so they made a BIG box containing a video toaster and > an Amiga, and sold that as a "Macintosh peripheral". Wasn't there also an Alpha-based add-on unit? Or was that after NewTek stopped using Amigas? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 16:11:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:11:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: *updating* 8088's In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Nov 26, 7 06:07:08 pm Message-ID: > Didnt X-ON, X-OFF start and stop the tape reader? If so you could have you= > r tape loop end with X-OFF and it would stop itself. Sending X-ON to the t= > ty would start the tape loop.... On an ASR33, that was an option called, IIRC, remote reader control. It involved a couple of levers in the function box behind the carriage, contacts that said levers operated, a different reader manual control switch lever/contacts and some circuitry, including at least one relay, in the call control unit. Neither of my ASR33s have it. From what I've heard it was not common in ASR33s ued with computers, for those it was more common to add a relay in series with the reader control circuit (using the normal manual-controlled reader), and control the coil of that relay directly from the computer interface. DEC, HP and Intel all had versions of this modification which are remarkably similar. But of course said mofification is not useful for making the reader act as an answerback. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 16:22:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:22:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <474B81DD.6050707@nktelco.net> from "Charles H Dickman" at Nov 26, 7 09:33:01 pm Message-ID: > > Josh Dersch wrote: > > However, my 5271 originally (a long time ago, before I inherited it) > > had a card with a BNC connector on the back, which sounds like it may > > have been a host interface. > A long time ago we used some PC/3270s and when they were junked I saved > a few of the cards with BNC connectors so that I could salvage the BNC > connector. I have one left. It is 8-bit and almost square. There is some > standard TTL, one Toshiba package (gate array ?), one IBM SLT package, > and a pulse transformer. It has a DIP switch with a single switch to > select slot 8 or slots 1-7. > > What was special about slot 8? In a true-blue IBM PC/XT (5160) or PortablePC (5155), and AFAIK very few, if any clones, the data bus on slot 8 is wired to the opposite side of a bus buffer to the data bus to the other 7 sltos. For that reason, the card in slot 8 has to assert (pull low) one pin on the conenctor on read cycles to that board (I forget the exact pin, I can look it up if you need it). The IBM Async card (RS232 card) was one card that could do this (jumper selected). I have heard that one reason such a card was included with every PC/XT was that it was bout the only thing that could go in slot 8, and by putting it there at the factory it avoided too many calls from customers 'Why doesn't the XYZ card work properly in my new XT?' I believe some Microsoft Bus Mouse cards had this facility too. I know I modified a 24 line parallel card (8255 based, the Maplin kit if anyone remembers that) to work there (I didn't get a real IBM Async card in my first XT, I bought a clone 2-port one that wnet in one of the other slots, but I wasn't goign to waste slot 8...) One particularly clueless piece of mechanical design is that the chassis of a 5155 PortablePC is about 1/4" to short to fit the Async card in slot 8. Thus slot 8 is essentially a wasted slot in that machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 16:33:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:33:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <009801c830aa$e32a1a60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Nov 27, 7 04:06:28 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > >>....the Beeb is a fairly formidable system to understand.... > > > Is it? Why? Are you talking abotu understanding how to program it, or > >understanding the hardware? > > The hardware. > > It's a very clever design, but looking at it from the point of view of > someone who's just learning about computer electronics, I think it would > look pretty daunting. The 64 is a much simpler system. It's strange, but when I looked at the BBC schematic for the first time I felt it was all very straightforward with no nasties. There is, IMHO, a big difference between 'lots of components' and 'complex'. A 1M byte RAM assembly using 1103s (1Kbits each, so 8192 RAM chips alone) has a lot of parts. But it;'s actually quite simple, in that it's the same circuit repeated over and over. Conversely, a PERQ 1a CPU board has under 300 ICs, but to understand that fully is a lot of work. It's complex, Getting back to the original point, I feel it's essential for the 'teacher' to have a much greater understnading of then the student (something that, alas, rarely, if ever, happeend to me at school :-(). I would not want to try to teach the internals of the C64, simply because of those undocumented chips. That's something I don't understnad, will probably never understand. The student could ask me a question that I would never be able to answer, and that's unfiar on them. Conversely, I would have no objections to teaching the internals of the PERQ CPU board to a student who already had a good grounding in digital electronics. No, I don't expect a 9-yerar-old kid to fit into that category. On sevaeral occasions I have given talks on the internals of particular machines, and I always ensure that I know much more aobut the machine than I say. If I am, say, talking about the HP9830, I might describe the CPU data path, microcode sequencer, and a bit of the microcde. But if somebody asked me about the cassette I/O system, I could flip up the right page in the schematics book and explain just what every chip did. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 16:40:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:40:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <00a401c830ad$7dd2edb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Nov 27, 7 04:25:07 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > And that's exactly why I think it's a poor choice. You can't > >_really_ understnad what goes on inside those blocks.... > > But you don't need to when you're starting out. No, but you might well wnat to a couple of in the future. And then find there's no way that you can. > > Why get bogged down with the intricasies of a board full of TTL when all you > need to know is how to drive it? This reminds me of the well-known comment 'The problem with linux is that you have to learn how to recompile the kernel'. My reply to that is 'No, you _can_ recompile the kernel if you want to, but you don''t _have_ to. The supplied one works fine'. So to go back to your comment, even if the processor is a big board of TTL, you don't _have_ to understnad it, or look at the schematic, or anything if you don't want to. You can treat it as a black box and write programs for it. A board of TTL can have the same wort of user- or programmer- level description as a custom chip. But if you want to get inside, you can. Anyway, we have no idea waht the OP's kid wants to do :-) > > I suppose what I'm saying is you need to keep things fairly simple to start > with (but not *TOO* simple). Getting the balance right is tricky.... Indeed it is. And my experience (possibly biased by the fact that I was a hardware hacker before I even saw a computer) is that most beginner-level books _are_ over-simplified. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 16:51:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:51:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <200711271053.FAA22856@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Nov 27, 7 05:39:16 am Message-ID: > In my experience, it does, other things being equal. Which of course > they rarely are - has anyone built what for lack of a better term I > might call a typechecked FORTH engine? I don't really know FORTH as > well as I'd like, but my impression is that doing that would require > enough infrastructure that it would border on reinventing PostScript > (minus the rendering stuff, of course). I believe it's called 'RPL' (Reverse Polish Lisp), the language used on some high-end HP handheld calculators. You can push just aboput anything onto the stack. Real numbers, complex numbers, strings, vextors, matrices, lists, programs (!), user binary numbers, system binary numbers, and so on. Built-in commands check the type of the arguments they take off the stack, and either complain that they can't handle that sort of object (for example taking the square root of a string) or execute hte appropraite code based on the object types. So '+' can add 2 real numbers, concatenate 2 strings, and so on. User-written programs generally simply use the built-in type checking of the words they're built up from (if the object types are incorrect then at some point one of those words will complain), although it's certainly possible (and quite easy) for a user progam written either in user-RPL or system-RPL to do full type checking at the start. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 27 17:17:13 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:17:13 +0000 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27/11/07 23:03, "Jason T" wrote: > On 11/27/07, Fred Cisin wrote: >> TCI Bay Cablevision (Berkeley and Richmond) used to have a TV guide >> channel. It would sometimes crash, and display a "Guru Meditation Number" >> instead. > That happened frequently on y cablesystem (whoever NW Suburban Chicago > had in the early 90s) as well. Once I even got to watch them create > the new slides (in Scala, I think) over the air :) > >> I heard that the Video Toaster people actually got HOSTILE reactions from >> some Mac fanatics, so they made a BIG box containing a video toaster and >> an Amiga, and sold that as a "Macintosh peripheral". > > Wasn't there also an Alpha-based add-on unit? Or was that after > NewTek stopped using Amigas? The only Alpha based add-on I saw here was the turboCHANNEL Denali monster used by ProEngineer in the mid 90s, this of course doesn't mean others didn't exist. If I forget everything else I'll always remember the size of the cable that ran between the host machine and the separate Denali box, it was *thick* -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 27 17:21:52 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:21:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Jason T wrote: > On 11/27/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > TCI Bay Cablevision (Berkeley and Richmond) used to have a TV guide > > channel. It would sometimes crash, and display a "Guru Meditation Number" > > instead. > That happened frequently on y cablesystem (whoever NW Suburban Chicago > had in the early 90s) as well. Once I even got to watch them create > the new slides (in Scala, I think) over the air :) > > > I heard that the Video Toaster people actually got HOSTILE reactions from > > some Mac fanatics, so they made a BIG box containing a video toaster and > > an Amiga, and sold that as a "Macintosh peripheral". > > Wasn't there also an Alpha-based add-on unit? Or was that after > NewTek stopped using Amigas? This reminds me of something that's been bugging me for a while. What was the thing with a woman's head appearing in a NewTek logo saying "NewTek!"? What was the demo that included the same sort of thing except that a guy who looked like Bluto from Popeye appeared and yelled "ScrewTek!"? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 27 17:28:02 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:28:02 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com > References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071127171606.052977b8@mail.threedee.com> At 05:03 PM 11/27/2007, Jason T wrote: >> I heard that the Video Toaster people actually got HOSTILE reactions from >> some Mac fanatics, so they made a BIG box containing a video toaster and >> an Amiga, and sold that as a "Macintosh peripheral". The Amiga had color desktop PostScript publishing before the Mac as I recall, too. If specsmanship was your bag, you had plenty to be envious about. :-) >Wasn't there also an Alpha-based add-on unit? Or was that after >NewTek stopped using Amigas? There was NewTek's "Screamer," a quad MIPS, WinNT-based computer for accelerated rendering of Lightwave scenes, of which at least press releases shipped. There were other companies selling AXP-based boxes for the same purpose, and Lightwave was independent and available for each platform. I think the Mac Toaster was not much more than a SCSI-based link between the two computers, but my memory may be failing me. I believe it just gave a way to control the video transitions and to move files between the two. (Again, I suspect some of my software was involved to translate images to Mac PICT format.) Once again proving that this list repeats topics and questions every few years and is in desperate need of a Wiki, I quote myself from 2002: Once upon a time, I wrote the first version of the "Video Toaster for Windows". Like many Amiga apps, the Toaster was highly controllable via ARexx, and these commands could come in the serial port. Newtek needed a splash for COMDEX, so I wrote a GUI in Visual BASIC running on a PS/2. It spit out ARexx via the serial port to a Toaster under the table. It had some of the same functionality as the Amiga GUI, except it was driven under Windows. The sad fact is that it won the "Best New Product of the Show" crystal trophy at that COMDEX. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, or to the Amiga under the table skirt. - John From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 27 17:32:37 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:32:37 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... Message-ID: <01C83124.00D98C20@mandr71> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:52:00 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers... >> So, I propose that programming be taught first in machine language, >> then assembly. That's how I learned to do it. >EAM first! There's nothing like "cardboard technology" to demystify the >whole thing. "How can you use an 08x sorter (one column at a time) to >efficiently arrange a large deck of cards with a sequence number in 73 >through 80?" "Wire a plug board for an interpreter to print last name, >then first name, that have fields in the middle of the card, flush left." >"Use a 407? accounting machine to print results directly onto a form >1040." "Use a Gerber Data Digitizer ("Etch-a-sketch") to make a deck of >cards with a risque picture." >OK, NOW write machine language. (1401 emulator on a 1620)? ------ RIGHT ON! That's how I got started, and it's definitely the only way! The noise alone will be special, not to mention the excitement when little brother trips him/her on the way from the sorter to the collator and 4000 cards go flying across the room; what better way to grasp the concept of a glitch on a data bus... But I didn't have anything as modern as a 407; In My Day we only had 402s!!! BTW, my claim to fame was making it multiply; they said it couldn't be done, so... Haven't seen any with peripherals on eBay lately though... m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 27 17:49:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:49:10 -0700 Subject: IBM mechnical devices In-Reply-To: <01C83124.00D98C20@mandr71> References: <01C83124.00D98C20@mandr71> Message-ID: <474CACF6.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > But I didn't have anything as modern as a 407; In My Day we only had 402s!!! > BTW, my claim to fame was making it multiply; they said it couldn't be done, so... Has look up " 402 IBM " on the web. That is old stuff, a little more on topic than what I have seen lately. > Haven't seen any with peripherals on eBay lately though... So how many of the those old beasts are still around? Ben alias woodelf. PS. How did you get it to multiply? From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 27 17:49:40 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:49:40 -0500 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options Message-ID: <01C83126.60FEF8E0@mandr71> ------------Original Messages: Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:22:09 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options > What was special about slot 8? In a true-blue IBM PC/XT (5160) or PortablePC (5155), and AFAIK very few, if any clones, the data bus on slot 8 is wired to the opposite side of a bus buffer to the data bus to the other 7 sltos. For that reason, the card in slot 8 has to assert (pull low) one pin on the conenctor on read cycles to that board (I forget the exact pin, I can look it up if you need it). The IBM Async card (RS232 card) was one card that could do this (jumper selected). I have heard that one reason such a card was included with every PC/XT was that it was bout the only thing that could go in slot 8, and by putting it there at the factory it avoided too many calls from customers 'Why doesn't the XYZ card work properly in my new XT?' -tony ------------Reply: Wasn't it used (and intended) for the expansion chassis card? m From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 17:53:58 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:53:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amgia 600 and IBM PC Radio was Re: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <782429.16243.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <357586.41837.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> I actually have a 600 myself, but never used it. I'll be bugging you with questions before too long LOL LOL. So what's the largest cflash card it can utilize? I assume that's a type 1 slot, although I don't know the difference between a type 1 or type 2. My *new* IBM PC Radios have a pcmcia slot also (that's what it looks like anyway. --- Andrew Burton wrote: > No, sorry. > > I prefer the Amiga 600, even though many consider it > to be the runt of the litter. However, it's the only > Amiga (other than the A1200) to have a PCMCIA slot > which has proven to be useful to me. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > Chris M wrote: does anyone > operate one of these? That is does anyone > favor this machine over any of the later models? > Commercially ISTR it being a flop, so that might > seem > like a strange question, but there is no lack of > strange birds on this list. If you know what I mean > LOL LOL! Hey maybe I'm stranger then the rest of you > birds LOL LOL LOL! > anyhow interested in the thoughts that find this > unit > particularly enjoyable. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From davis at saw.net Tue Nov 27 17:54:54 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:54:54 -0800 Subject: IBM mechnical devices In-Reply-To: <474CACF6.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C83124.00D98C20@mandr71> <474CACF6.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <474CAE4E.4000405@saw.net> woodelf wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >> But I didn't have anything as modern as a 407; In My Day we only had >> 402s!!! >> BTW, my claim to fame was making it multiply; they said it couldn't >> be done, so... > > Has look up " 402 IBM " on the web. That is old stuff, a little more > on topic than > what I have seen lately. > >> Haven't seen any with peripherals on eBay lately though... > > So how many of the those old beasts are still around? > Ben alias woodelf. > PS. How did you get it to multiply? > > > How can you do any business work on hardware that can't multiply? The mind boggles! Jim Davis From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 18:02:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:02:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Commie 64 lives? In-Reply-To: <474B8BDB.9060507@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <644248.66776.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> In all honesty, are there likely to be penalties for owning/downloading old software like that? I really don't have a clue. I do remember when it was deemed *illegal* for websites to host arcade machine roms (presumably it's also *illegal* to own them). It's illegal to xerox a page from a book at the library, but it goes on every day of the week. Some laws are created to prohibit outright fraud, but I can't see anyone doing time for xeroxing a page from an encyclopedia... Anyway, I'm most interested in UK/Euro shareware and stuff, mostly the old games for the C64 (and other platforms as well). Does anyone remember that stupid little game with the robot...all I can say is I managed to get it to the *end* and the thing always would up screaming it's guts out (due to electrocution IIRC). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 18:07:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:07:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474B1F42.18937.5479DB41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > While some have suggested BASIC and FOrth, no one > has yet suggested > COBOL. Yet, COBOL is the closest of common > programming languages to > English, unless you'd like to count some of the > contrived "natural > programming languages" such as Metafor. In any > case, COBOL might be > closer to the language already understood by a young > person. So? The poor kid is likely to develop CTS before he hits 18. I took COBOL in HS, and man did I hate it. FORTRAN was much more funner. Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler for a peecee or whatever else? Here's a question - what 8-bitters (or defunct 16-bitters, Atari, Amiga, you know, the common stuff) had COBOL available? What was SNOBOL? What about COBAL? I think I have COBAL for the TI PC. > I submit that any high-level programming > language--formal or natural-- > while a shortcut way to get a machine to "do > something", obscures the > inner workings of a computer to such an extent as to > give little clue > as to precisely how the thing operates. In > particular, "structured > programming" elements can really hide inner > workings. > > So, I propose that programming be taught first in > machine language, > then assembly. That's how I learned to do it. A smattering of assembly language to begin with maybe. That's something someone will learn only if they want to. Lots of people have problems with it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ingrammp at earthlink.net Tue Nov 27 18:09:23 2007 From: ingrammp at earthlink.net (mike ingram) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:09:23 -0700 Subject: free SGI Origin 2000 Message-ID: <15DD6E37-9A01-434B-9ED6-0A2B7B70BFAD@earthlink.net> Well, they may not be exactly "classic" but they were interesting machines in their time... I have two (2) SGI Origin 2000 systems.... It's an 8 node, 195Mhz R10000, 512Mbyte, CD, 4Gbyte disk.. Has two HVD (high voltage differential as opposed to the current LVD ).. interfaces on each... and a PCI card adapter.. and a bunch of cables for connecting external disks and whatnot. Both are free for the taking and are located in Tucson..., and both were working when last turned off... stored in an air-conditioned corporate office. I'll help you load one or both onto your truck !! Mike From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 18:14:14 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:14:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI / SCSI bridge board availability (was: Re: SASI and XT/IDE info) In-Reply-To: <474C30E9.5040307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <546402.54552.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 05:54:21PM -0800, Fred > Cisin wrote: > >> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>> There is one of those in the CBM 9060 and CBM > 9090 drives. > >> So, . . . > >> an IBM PC SASI board would let you cable a CBM > 90x0 drive to a PC? > >> THAT seems like a good use. > > > > As long as the PC can handle 256-byte sectors... > > Out of interest, how obtainable are the SASI/SCSI > <==> ST412 bridge boards > (from the likes of OMTI / Adaptec / Xebec / Emulex)? > > I've got a pile I was going to ship over from the UK > at some point as spares > (various systems that I have use them) - but if > they're still really easy to > get then I guess I won't bother[1] and will just > acquire a few within the US > as it'll likely be cheaper. > > [1] The Xebec ones at least tended to have > vendor-specific ROMs I think, so > I'll have to make sure I have a working copy of the > ROMs in my UK-side ones. I was going to ask what a IBM PC SASI board was, or rather where would you find one, but then I remembered a XEBEC board sitting at the bottom of an old Tecmar expansion chassis I have (similar to the IBM 51??). Is that a SASI board? Best guess? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 27 18:15:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:15:29 -0800 Subject: IBM mechnical devices In-Reply-To: <474CACF6.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C83124.00D98C20@mandr71>, <474CACF6.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <474C42A1.24783.58EC012B@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2007 at 16:49, woodelf wrote: > PS. How did you get it to multiply? Added a 602-A? Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 18:20:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:20:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <474C5967.4030907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <861082.13009.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris - you probably have something quite unique > there. Whilst things calling > themselves SASI interfaces are common in old > 8-bitters, this is the first I've > heard of one for the PC... They're not specific to anything AFAIK. They're not ISA cards if that's what you were led to believe. They're the same size as a floppy, or old klunker of a hard drive (similar to an Ampro Little Board). The guy who gave them to me supposedly had a drawing for an interface that would allow *any* computer with a *parallel* connection to utilize these boards. Kelly Leavitt (who sailed off the end of the earth apparently, haven't seen him around) should know a bit more about these things. I could e-mail Roy Soltoff about the schematics, but I doubt he held onto them. I wish I would have grabbed a box of the z80 based XEBEC boards when I was down there. They're common in older equipment. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 18:21:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:21:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <474BECA0.10266.579C0CAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <388210.46302.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > The Ampex Megastore for the 5150 interfaced to both > a hard disk and a > tape drive (both in an external cabinet). Adaptec or Xebec controller? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 27 18:27:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:27:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071127162439.N24373@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler for a > peecee or whatever else? IBM sold one that was adequate for learning COBOL. There were also some good ones. Was it "Micro-Focus" who was peddling "Structured COBOL", and even "Object Oriented COBOL"? > A smattering of assembly language to begin with > maybe. That's something someone will learn only if > they want to. Lots of people have problems with it. Howzbout: simultaneously learning machine language and a high level language? From davis at saw.net Tue Nov 27 18:37:16 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:37:16 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071127162439.N24373@shell.lmi.net> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20071127162439.N24373@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474CB83C.5010009@saw.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > >> Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler for a >> peecee or whatever else? >> > > IBM sold one that was adequate for learning COBOL. > There were also some good ones. > Was it "Micro-Focus" who was peddling "Structured COBOL", and even "Object > Oriented COBOL"? > > >> A smattering of assembly language to begin with >> maybe. That's something someone will learn only if >> they want to. Lots of people have problems with it. >> > > Howzbout: simultaneously learning machine language and a high level > language? > > > > > Take a look at Squeak. It's transparent down to the interpreter level (source included) and it's free. It's also the language chosen for the one laptop project. Very cool, based on smalltalk. It's sorta on topic. and it won't cause brain damage. Jim Davis. From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Nov 27 18:37:53 2007 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:37:53 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474CB861.7040804@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chris M wrote: > Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler for a > peecee or whatever else? Here's a question - what http://www.freebyte.com/programming/cobol/#freecobolcompilers -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHTLhhCFu3bIiwtTARAmlBAJ9calGT126+D/8vKRJQl+X9setnOACggw3B +V2ndom9qPGqa9HUQWA3+P8= =FGye -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 27 18:43:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:43:29 -0800 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info In-Reply-To: <388210.46302.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <474BECA0.10266.579C0CAE@cclist.sydex.com>, <388210.46302.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474C4931.3831.5905A267@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2007 at 16:21, Chris M wrote: > > The Ampex Megastore for the 5150 interfaced to both > > a hard disk and a > > tape drive (both in an external cabinet). > > Adaptec or Xebec controller? I don't recall, but probably neither. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 27 18:41:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:41:19 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <474B1F42.18937.5479DB41@cclist.sydex.com>, <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474C48AF.28136.5903A834@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2007 at 16:07, Chris M wrote: > So? The poor kid is likely to develop CTS before he > hits 18. I took COBOL in HS, and man did I hate it. > FORTRAN was much more funner. > Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler for a > peecee or whatever else? Here's a question - what > 8-bitters (or defunct 16-bitters, Atari, Amiga, you > know, the common stuff) had COBOL available? > What was SNOBOL? What about COBAL? I think I have > COBAL for the TI PC. SNOBOL4 was/is definitely available for the PC as well as that piece of useless flotsam, the Tandy 2000 (from Catspaw). There may have been a CP/M version of it, but I'm not sure. COBOL was even available for CP/M 2.2 (808x/Z80) and certainly available for a wide range of processors since then. I've never run into COBAL in my sheltered existence. What is it? > A smattering of assembly language to begin with > maybe. That's something someone will learn only if > they want to. Lots of people have problems with it. Were you aware that IBM used to publish coding forms for machine language? IIRC, they called it "(fill in machine name) Absolute Coding System". I used to have some 1620 ACS forms. The left column had space for the location, the next column held the opcode, the third column, the P address and the fourth column, the Q address. The remainder of the line was left for comments. Strange as it sounds, the preprinted forms actually were better than a blank sheet of paper. That punched-card mentality really sticks around ("one box for one character"). I still code on quadrule paper. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 18:52:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:52:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071127162439.N24373@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <292838.78211.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Chris M wrote: > > Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler > for a > > peecee or whatever else? > > IBM sold one that was adequate for learning COBOL. > There were also some good ones. > Was it "Micro-Focus" who was peddling "Structured > COBOL", and even "Object > Oriented COBOL"? Yes I forgot. I actually own M$'s COBOL compiler. O joy. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 27 19:51:24 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:51:24 -0000 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com><200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....plethora of expansion options for the 64, overburdened >the struggling supply. > > To be fair, it's entirely possible the PS was fine and would live a >reasonable life attached to a bone stock 64.... Quite, I never had the slightest problem with my PSU (of the black brick type), but then my C64 was 100% stock. OTOH At the company I worked for at the time, the beige "wedge shaped" PSUs were dropping like flies - we found them to be HORRENDOUSLY unreliable, and those were stock unmodified C64s too! >....It looks like the Atari variants had true joystick IO ports.... The 400 and 800 used a PIA (6520/6820) with 4 bits of each port going to each joystick port. The paddle inputs (analogue in) and triggers were handled by POKEY. The later XL and XE machines dispensed with joystick ports 3 & 4 and used port B of the PIA to map the OS and BASIC ROMs in and out of memory and control paged RAM. >....Google says Atari created such a trainer for their 400/800 units, >so the idea held some merit. Must admit I've never heard of that one, but the ports could certainly be used for generalised I/O. I designed and built my first EPROM burner to attach to my 400 via its 4 joystick ports (it needed all 4), so it's certainly possible. TTFN - Pete. From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Nov 27 20:18:47 2007 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:18:47 -0500 Subject: SASI and XT/IDE info Message-ID: > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: > > > Chris - you probably have something quite unique > > there. Whilst things calling > > themselves SASI interfaces are common in old > > 8-bitters, this is the first I've > > heard of one for the PC... > > They're not specific to anything AFAIK. They're not > ISA cards if that's what you were led to believe. > They're the same size as a floppy, or old klunker of a > hard drive (similar to an Ampro Little Board). > The guy who gave them to me supposedly had a drawing > for an interface that would allow *any* computer with > a *parallel* connection to utilize these boards. Kelly > Leavitt (who sailed off the end of the earth > apparently, haven't seen him around) should know a bit > more about these things. I could e-mail Roy Soltoff > about the schematics, but I doubt he held onto them. The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated. I've just spent the last 8 months working on a personal project that I'm not quite finished with yet. Nothing to do with classic computers though. I have a bunch of these boards. They are WD SASI to MF boards. See the WD1002-SHD docs on bitsavers. Kelly No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1154 - Release Date: 11/27/2007 11:40 AM From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 27 20:29:00 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 02:29:00 -0000 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com><200711261421.55018.rtellason@verizon.net><009f01c830ac$6b5cef60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003501c83166$709d6e90$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> I'd assumed that all 64Cs had the combined Kernel/BASIC ROM, was >>this not the case? >> >> Likewise, I was under the impression that the move to a pair of 64K*4 >>DRAMs also came about with the advent of the C-64C.... > Not really, though it was more often the case than not. The major >difference between those new cases.... Thanks for the explanation, that certainly cleared up a few things for me. TTFN - Pete. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 27 20:49:24 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:49:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474C48AF.28136.5903A834@cclist.sydex.com> References: <474B1F42.18937.5479DB41@cclist.sydex.com>, <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <474C48AF.28136.5903A834@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071127184846.W31174@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Strange as it sounds, the preprinted forms actually were better than > a blank sheet of paper. That punched-card mentality really sticks > around ("one box for one character"). I still code on quadrule > paper. . . . and you wondered what EAM brought to the party From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 27 20:50:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:50:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474CB83C.5010009@saw.net> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20071127162439.N24373@shell.lmi.net> <474CB83C.5010009@saw.net> Message-ID: <20071127185018.J31174@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, davis wrote: > Take a look at Squeak. It's transparent down to the interpreter level > (source included) and it's free. > It's also the language chosen for the one laptop project. Very cool, > based on smalltalk. > It's sorta on topic. and it won't cause brain damage. Was the Smalltalk on the Lisa ever publicly released? From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 27 20:54:46 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 02:54:46 -0000 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options References: Message-ID: <00dc01c8316a$0a4ecd10$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I believe some Microsoft Bus Mouse cards had this facility too.... Indeed, all of the ones I've seen have a "slot 8" jumper on them. I've still got a couple knocking around somewhere along with their associated meeces. TTFN - Pete. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 27 21:40:10 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:40:10 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com><200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> <002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> Ensor wrote: > OTOH At the company I worked for at the time, the beige "wedge shaped" > PSUs were dropping like flies - we found them to be HORRENDOUSLY > unreliable, and those were stock unmodified C64s too! pics? I'm not sure I recall a wedge-shaped PSU. > The 400 and 800 used a PIA (6520/6820) with 4 bits of each port going > to each joystick port. The paddle inputs (analogue in) and triggers > were handled by POKEY. Was the trigger IO, or just input? Paddle inputs were likewise handled by 6560/61 VIC-I in the VIC, and 6567/69 VIC-II in the C64. Input only for obvious reasons. If Atari only had 4 bits per port, You could still do 8 nybbles (4 bytes) of data and a SELect, or 2 bytes and SEL and CLK lines with both ports across the two machines. What about TI or Apple? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Nov 27 21:58:24 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 03:58:24 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler for a >peecee or whatever else.... Microsift....they certainly produced one for MS-DOS (dunno if there was ever a "VisualCOBOL" though). >....Here's a question - what 8-bitters (or defunct >16-bitters, Atari, Amiga, you know, the common stuff) >had COBOL available? There were several compilers which ran under CP/M, "CIS-COBOL" was one I used while at polytechnic (on SuperBrain IIs). "FaST COBOL" ran on the Atari ST, along with "Nevada(?) COBOL". I've never come across a COBOL compiler for the 8-bit Atari, I had a thing in those days about learning almost every programming language I could so had a *LOT* of compilers/interpreters for my Atari, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one out there somewhere. > A smattering of assembly language to begin with >maybe. That's something someone will learn only if >they want to. Lots of people have problems with it. Yes, and those are PRECISELY the sort of people who have no business being computer programmers, IMHO; I.E. they couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag. TTFN - Pete. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 27 23:48:11 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:48:11 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <474D011B.80002@jbrain.com> Ensor wrote: > > > Yes, and those are PRECISELY the sort of people who have no business > being computer programmers, IMHO; I.E. they couldn't program their way > out of a wet paper bag. This sounds like a variation on the language religious war. But, (and in keeping the post on topic), I submit that writing ASM or ML on 32 or 64 bit processors like x86 and PowerPC (or even the later 68K offerings) would be inappropriate for many young children as a first language. An 8 or 16 bit CPU offers less to learn (6502 has 56 opcodes, I think) and there are less things to consider. No multiple cores, no re-ordering instructions to efficiently fill the pipeline, no multi-tasking OS stealing cycles from your app, etc. As well, in keeping with the "if it's too easy, it hides too many details" view, rolling your own multiply or divide on a CPU without a native implementation in silicon is a very useful exercise. An initial subtraction based divide routine nicely ties the CPU back to the concept of long division from school. Working through ways to improve the divide by doing bit shifting and/or lookup tables brings the algorithm to the forefront, which I think is the real value. So, I think it's more than ML, it's ML on a small enough CPU to make the learning curve reasonable and to force one to learn the algorithm. All that said, I'm not sure I agree ML is the best for a budding programmer. You can use ML and still be clueless. Though, if it works out and you choose an older platform, that's one less older unit that is no longer obsolete. Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 27 23:51:03 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:51:03 -0600 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <474A5C97.8050404@oldskool.org> <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> Message-ID: <474D01C7.6060203@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I saw plenty of games like that (including ones that were later patched > for hard drive installs), but I don't think I owned any commercial stuff > that was locked to older versions of Kickstart. There was a music program from Electronic Arts that I remember not working properly on an A500 (Instant Music IIRC) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 28 00:09:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:09:26 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474D011B.80002@jbrain.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <474D011B.80002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <474C9596.23826.5A300957@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2007 at 23:48, Jim Brain wrote: > All that said, I'm not sure I agree ML is the best for a budding > programmer. You can use ML and still be clueless. Though, if it works > out and you choose an older platform, that's one less older unit that is > no longer obsolete. That's one of the reasons that I suggested a microcontroller such as a PIC (or an AVR or 8051 family). Very simple architecture (a PIC has, what, 34 instructions?). No OS to fool with, easy to program, cheap and you can actually make it do interesting things. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 28 00:11:36 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:11:36 -0600 Subject: the Commie 64 lives? In-Reply-To: <644248.66776.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <644248.66776.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474D0698.8020808@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > In all honesty, are there likely to be penalties for > owning/downloading old software like that? Legally, yes. Practically, no. The Internet Archive got a real bone-fide exception from the US government (DMCA, I believe) to archive software that has historical significance. Everyone else is breaking the law. Should you worry? Probably not. There are very high-profile sites that have been around for over a decade (Asimov mirrors and c64.com comes to mind; many others) that have not been served with any cease and desist letters because most software companies don't feel they are being harmed through unauthorized distribution of materials. > I do remember when it was deemed > *illegal* for websites to host arcade machine roms > (presumably it's also *illegal* to own them). It's *always* been illegal :-) The sites that get hit with cease and desist letters are sites that are hosting ROMs for games which the current copyright holders are still utilizing for money. The most obvious example would be Nintendo cracking down on all NES/SNES sites because their newest console, the Wii, has an online service where you can purchase the same games and play them in an emulator on the Wii. > It's > illegal to xerox a page from a book at the library, > but it goes on every day of the week. It's not illegal in the US depending on what your usage is. There is a Fair Use clause in US copyright law that protects your copy if you are using it for a limited number of purposes (educational, parody, a few others). Fair Use does **not** protect you from causing the copyright holder financial harm and/or using said property to damage their image or reputation. > Anyway, I'm most interested in UK/Euro shareware and > stuff, mostly the old games for the C64 (and other > platforms as well). Does anyone remember that stupid > little game with the robot...all I can say is I > managed to get it to the *end* and the thing always > would up screaming it's guts out (due to electrocution > IIRC). Email me off-list as I think Jay would agree going this route would be OT. One such list to discuss the hobby of collecting old software (games or otherwise) is the "swcollect" mailing list. However, that list is down this week as I'm upgrading my infrastructure at the moment :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 27 23:55:04 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:55:04 -0500 Subject: IBM mechnical devices Message-ID: <01C8315C.7FD86720@mandr71> -----------Original Messages: Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:54:54 -0800 From: davis Subject: Re: IBM mechnical devices woodelf wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >> But I didn't have anything as modern as a 407; In My Day we only had >> 402s!!! >> BTW, my claim to fame was making it multiply; they said it couldn't >> be done, so... > > Has look up " 402 IBM " on the web. That is old stuff, a little more > on topic than > what I have seen lately. > >> Haven't seen any with peripherals on eBay lately though... > > So how many of the those old beasts are still around? > Ben alias woodelf. > PS. How did you get it to multiply? > > > How can you do any business work on hardware that can't multiply? The mind boggles! Jim Davis -------------Reply: Ah, no, for that there was the 604 Calculating punch, equivalent to a numeric co-processor (but in two somewhat larger cabinets !); since it was in big demand it made sense to do simple multiplication on the 402s instead of waiting for your turn. m From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 28 00:16:33 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:16:33 -0500 Subject: IBM mechnical devices Message-ID: <01C8315C.80FD5F20@mandr71> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:15:29 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: IBM mechnical devices On 27 Nov 2007 at 16:49, woodelf wrote: >> PS. How did you get it to multiply? >Added a 602-A? >Cheers, >Chuck ---------- Actually, it was a Big Day when we replaced the 602-A with a 604; lots o' blinkenlights and warm glowing tubes instead of all those clicking relays and turning cams. Only electronic gear in the place until we replaced most of it with Canada's first Burroughs B-260, grandson of the famous Lost in Space B-205. Picture of B-260 (and some other interesting pix & facts) at: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL64-b.html#B260/B270/B280 Ah, the good old days... m From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 28 00:23:19 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:23:19 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474C9596.23826.5A300957@cclist.sydex.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <474D011B.80002@jbrain.com> <474C9596.23826.5A300957@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <474D0957.5030401@jbrain.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's one of the reasons that I suggested a microcontroller such as > a PIC (or an AVR or 8051 family). Very simple architecture (a PIC > has, what, 34 instructions?). No OS to fool with, easy to program, > cheap and you can actually make it do interesting things. > Maybe it's easier for others to grok, but I struggle with the PIC architecture (pages of memory, and the strangeness in addressing, make me wince). Though, I find the AVR simple to understand, flat memory model, and lots of IO to play with. I've created lots of C64 projects with them. Still, I have my PICkit2 and a batch of PICs from Parallax here and I'll get proficient on them as well. I cut my teeth on the Scenix SX, which mimic PIC of some vintage. I editted out the AVR comment in my previous post, since I thought it might ruffle feathers and get Jay all worried about off-topic-ness. Thus, I'll curtail my remarks once I state that if that turns my children onto programming, I can live with it. I try to be pragmatic about my old computer hobby. Jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 28 00:34:39 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:34:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <0JS500C0YCOAKN43@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JS500C0YCOAKN43@vms169133.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200711280636.BAA04352@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > PISC Pitiful instruction set computer. :-) > A varient of TOY idea. There are others inlcusing a 4bitter. This is totally doable. I once took a computer hardware design course where our term project was to design and build a small 4-bit computer - CPU (we were allowed an ALU chip), RAM (we used a "register file" - just RAM with 4 bits each of address and data), and very rudimentary I/O (switches and lights). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 28 00:17:51 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:17:51 -0500 Subject: IBM mechnical devices Message-ID: <01C8315C.81F92440@mandr71> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:49:10 -0700 From: woodelf Subject: Re: IBM mechnical devices >M H Stein wrote: >> But I didn't have anything as modern as a 407; In My Day we only had 402s!!! >> BTW, my claim to fame was making it multiply; they said it couldn't be done, so... >Has look up " 402 IBM " on the web. That is old stuff, a little more on topic than >what I have seen lately. >> Haven't seen any with peripherals on eBay lately though... >So how many of the those old beasts are still around? >Ben alias woodelf. >PS. How did you get it to multiply? ---------- Actually, I think there are a few still around, but by the time you add all the necessary "peripherals" you've filled a large room... Don't ask me to do it today, but it was the "add and shift" method used by most mechanical calculators. Doubt if I still have the "coding form" though (lots of little circles connected with lines drawn to represent wires; a *real* machine language, none of that wussy octal & hex nonsense of Kids Today...) m From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 28 00:50:01 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:50:01 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <474D0F99.1000109@oldskool.org> David Griffith wrote: > This reminds me of something that's been bugging me for a while. What was > the thing with a woman's head appearing in a NewTek logo saying "NewTek!"? While I've never seen it, I think it's a good bet that the woman was Kiki Stockhammer (http://amigairc.amigarevolution.com/kiki.html). > What was the demo that included the same sort of thing except that a guy > who looked like Bluto from Popeye appeared and yelled "ScrewTek!"? I don't know, but then again my Amiga demoscene knowledge is pale compared to some others I know. If anyone finds that I'd love to see it :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 28 00:41:36 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:41:36 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <474D0DA0.20108@oldskool.org> Rod Smallwood wrote: > I'm sure that I heard that some Commodore systems could do TV out Composite only, but yes. You could get better results with a "genlock" device; a few of them supported Y/C ("s-video"). I produced a DVD last year with footage of running Amiga programs and I had to resort to scan-converting the RGB port itself to get acceptable quality. My signal path was RGB port->vga adapter->R/G/B/H/V breakout cable->scan converter->Y/Cr/Cb output->Y/Cr/Cb video capture card. That sounds heinous, but the scan converter and the video capture card were very high-end broadcast-quality units (scan converter was RGB Spectrum Videolink 1650x; capture card was Black Magic Designs Decklink SP) and there were really only two generational losses (RGB->scan converter and scan converter->capture card). The quality from this process was an order of magnitude better than the A500 and A4000's composite video output port. > and were in fact used to produce CGI stuff for 'Babylon Five" That was a NewTek Video Toaster, not a stock Amiga :-) The Video Toaster hardware had it's own set of video output ports, IIRC, although I could be wrong as I've never used one. > Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? All models except the A4000 (and maybe the A3000, but I'm not sure) were made in NTSC or PAL specific versions, with a different color generator and crystal to match. The A4000 had a jumper on the motherboard that selected either NTSC or PAL timings. You could get any model to "emulate" the other by using free utilities like Degrader, but these only affected the RGB video output timing. I used Degrader extensively on my NTSC A1200 to get European PAL games to run, since they required a 50Hz display, but that didn't affect the composite video output port, which was still NTSC (although it output some quasi-NTSC-50-gibberish when running in "pal" mode). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 28 01:03:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:03:25 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474D0957.5030401@jbrain.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <474C9596.23826.5A300957@cclist.sydex.com>, <474D0957.5030401@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <474CA23D.22415.5A6174F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2007 at 0:23, Jim Brain wrote: > Maybe it's easier for others to grok, but I struggle with the PIC > architecture (pages of memory, and the strangeness in addressing, make > me wince). Though, I find the AVR simple to understand, flat memory > model, and lots of IO to play with. I've created lots of C64 projects > with them. Still, I have my PICkit2 and a batch of PICs from Parallax > here and I'll get proficient on them as well. I cut my teeth on the > Scenix SX, which mimic PIC of some vintage. I guess if I were teaching a young 'un, the AVR would be a good choice. Part of the problems with PIC architecture lies in the way said architecture is described in the datasheets leading to some warped thinking. But the other part does lie in the warped implementation. I think discussion of the PIC is probably on-topic, as the architecture dates back to 1975 as a support processor for the GI CP1600 CPU (which had a much more orthogonal instruction set). Of course, the 8051/8048/68HC11 all qualify as vintage architectures and would also be choices for teaching. Cheers, Chuck From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Nov 27 10:53:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:53:03 -0000 Subject: Amiga TV Out Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E512@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> My requirement is much less demanding. I only need to show test cards,static pictures and the like. Whats most important is that the output is as close to the full PAL standard as possible. So to widen the scope the question becomes: 'Where can I get an old system that will do broadcast standard PAL TV out.' PAL will be gone as soon as the analog systems TV systems are switched off and digital takes over. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: 27 November 2007 14:44 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Amiga TV Out At 11:46 PM 11/26/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I'm sure that I heard that some Commodore systems could do TV out >and were in fact used to produce CGI stuff for 'Babylon Five" >Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? Special effects makers strove for higher quality as the job demanded. Part of the appeal of the Amiga for special effects was the price of the 32-bit hardware and software. SGI hardware and software was an order of magnitude more expensive. NewTek's Lightwave was used by the Babylon 5 special effects group. I know they also used an early 3D Studio on a PC for some of the modeling. (And they used some of my software to convert between 3D file formats; as I recall, the spun shape of the original station was made that way.) Yes, the Amiga had the horsepower to play back animations of useful color depths in real-time. Depending on the image and the requirements, some special effects might even look OK with the straight TV-out. For example, the typical synthetic "computer display" in a cheesy sci-fi show. When you're filming an actor in front of an animation playing on a monitor, low-res is OK. More often for serious output, as in Babylon 5's case, they laid their bitmaps to an 8mm Exabyte tape as data files, then imported into an Abekas framebuffer that could play them back in real time. High quality, no generational loss every time you made an edit or copy. Straight TV-out wasn't a high-quality method of exporting video, though. In the early days, some people used single-frame video recorders to lay down a sequence of animation. This worked reasonably well, within NTSC generational limits. Later, some NewTek Video Toaster-based animators used its higher-quality framebuffer as the output to single-frame recordings. - John From cctech at retro.co.za Wed Nov 28 03:13:56 2007 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:13:56 +0200 Subject: OT : CRT replacement In-Reply-To: <200711271431.lAREUrbL051599@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20071128110720.08ce75b0@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi Tony and all >Why do you suspect that the CRT has failed? Have yoy actually tested it >(e.g is the heater open-circuit?) K, here's the story. The machine is about a thousand km from here. It was sent to the Motorola agents (1600 km from here :) where the technician diagnosed a faulty CRT. He also swapped his test CRT in, proving that the problem is with the CRT, but he's not prepared to part with the CRT he has. > > > > I don't even know if it's vector or raster, I'd suspect vector? > >There is no such thing as a 'vactor CRT'. Any CRT can be used in either >mod. Although it's common for raster displayes to use >magnetically-deflected CRTs and vector displays to use >electrostatically-deflected CRTs That's pretty much what I meant, yes. A vector display would imply an oscilloscope type CRT while a raster display would imply deflection coils and the like. And yes, there are exceptions I'm sure :-) >Is it more like TV CRT ot a 'socpe one? That's what I meant :) OK, so I have >CRT is marked with the following numbers : > >P/N95-P09122T001 >P/N96/80396A98 >AEG396512 >D/14/390GH it could also be D/14/390GHB > >(None of these pop up on google). > >The size of the CRT is as follows; >L: 360mm >W: 100mm >H: 125mm A length of 360 yells "oscilloscope" to me... no? I'm trying to get a picture of this animal, but since they can't fix it, maybe I should suggest they ship it to my side of the world, then I can count the pins on the base etc. I'm thinking that if it's a 'scope tube almost anything will work? Thanks W From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Nov 28 06:38:18 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 06:38:18 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071127171606.052977b8@mail.threedee.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20071127171606.052977b8@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <474D613A.6090301@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > At 05:03 PM 11/27/2007, Jason T wrote: >>> I heard that the Video Toaster people actually got HOSTILE reactions from >>> some Mac fanatics, so they made a BIG box containing a video toaster and >>> an Amiga, and sold that as a "Macintosh peripheral". > > The Amiga had color desktop PostScript publishing before the Mac > as I recall, too. If specsmanship was your bag, you had plenty > to be envious about. :-) > >> Wasn't there also an Alpha-based add-on unit? Or was that after >> NewTek stopped using Amigas? > > There was NewTek's "Screamer," a quad MIPS, WinNT-based computer > for accelerated rendering of Lightwave scenes, of which at least > press releases shipped. There were other companies selling > AXP-based boxes for the same purpose, and Lightwave was independent > and available for each platform. > > I think the Mac Toaster was not much more than a SCSI-based > link between the two computers, but my memory may be failing me. > I believe it just gave a way to control the video transitions > and to move files between the two. (Again, I suspect some of > my software was involved to translate images to Mac PICT format.) > > Once again proving that this list repeats topics and questions > every few years and is in desperate need of a Wiki, I quote > myself from 2002: Uhhh, like this? http://www.classiccmp.org/wiki :^) Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 28 07:34:29 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:34:29 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <474D0F99.1000109@oldskool.org> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> <474D0F99.1000109@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071128073331.04d1fd00@mail.threedee.com> At 12:50 AM 11/28/2007, Jim Leonard wrote: >David Griffith wrote: >>This reminds me of something that's been bugging me for a while. What was >>the thing with a woman's head appearing in a NewTek logo saying "NewTek!"? > >While I've never seen it, I think it's a good bet that the woman was Kiki Stockhammer (http://amigairc.amigarevolution.com/kiki.html). No, I think he's referring to Laura Longfellow, her blonde predecessor, in an early animated Digiview promotion called "Maxine Headroom", which you can see on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXqmTZMtAj8 At 06:38 AM 11/28/2007, Doc Shipley wrote: >John Foust wrote: >>Once again proving that this list repeats topics and questions >>every few years and is in desperate need of a Wiki, I quote >>myself from 2002: > > Uhhh, like this? http://www.classiccmp.org/wiki > > :^) I meant a Wiki that was already full of all these details, like magic. :-) - John From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 08:41:42 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:41:42 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> <002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0711280641x7e16824k1a4b3864340a599f@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2007 10:40 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Paddle inputs were likewise handled by 6560/61 VIC-I in the VIC, and > 6567/69 VIC-II in the C64. Input only for obvious reasons. I'm fairly sure the C64 paddles was handled by the SID... Joe. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 28 08:45:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:45:04 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> OK, I've managed to catch up with the thread now. Nice to see so many replies (I figured it'd generate a few, but I didn't expect this many :-) A few individual points: Re. BBC micro: will definitely have one over here at some point. It'd be nice to find a US-spec one, but I expect they're a little rare even in the US (I've only ever seen one on the UK side). Main worry about the BBC though is that it's perhaps overkill for that initial learning step (i.e. focus on ROM/RAM/CPU and basic I/O) but is a fantastic machine once initial concepts have been grasped. (C64 perhaps falls into the same category as the BBC - it might be a bit too daunting initially simply because it can do so much more than the basic stuff) Re. Zaks "Programming the Z80" - good idea. I've actually got two copies anyway, but they're boxed up in the UK; perhaps I could manage to get one sent over 'early' though. Definitely is a good book... Re. Alice. Interesting. I've not come across that before, but looking at the front page of the site it looks like it has potential - I'll do some more reading! I'm still not sure how to approach the low-level electronics side of things. Way back when in the UK, we had some electronics 'kits' at school which had basic logic gates mounted on a board and allowed kids to jump wires between them to make circuits (they contained a few LEDs, an LDR, some switches etc. too). Blue fronts, with the component legends drawn out in white (you couldn't actually see the ICs themselves). Did something similar exist in US schools? That sort of thing might be a good practical introduction... I'd still like to find a 'simple' machine for him to play on - something on a par with a 48KB Spectrum; i.e. just ROM/RAM/CPU, keyboard, cassette storage, and TV output. Extra credit for having a 'common' CPU such as the Z80 or 6502 :-) (didn't the 48KB Spectrum sell in the US via Timex? Did it have a 'proper' keyboard? Having something with a 'real' keyboard would be nice...). Maybe an Apple ][ is a good candidate and still readily obtainable in the US? Reluctant to go the emulator route (just because it feels wrong to me personally :-) but maybe that's another option... I think I'm sort of aiming for a three-pronged 'attack' here: give him the ability to learn some electronics, learn how a computer fundamentally works, and learn how computers are programmed. Maybe he'll naturally gravitate toward one area (but, like I was, maybe he'll enjoy all three equally). Too early to tell at the moment though, so it'd be nice to keep options open. cheers Jules From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Wed Nov 28 08:53:08 2007 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:53:08 -0000 Subject: Free Alpha System 2000 4/233? : Dorset UK Message-ID: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FBEF7F95@exch-be09.exchange.local> Yours for the holidays. Free Alpha System 2000 4/233? Collection only from Dorset UK. PartNo 455YD-A9, condition / parts as seen in the jpegs. Pdfs are "information only". Obtained as part of a job lot. Condition is understood to be "Powers up and self tests OK but that's all I know about DEC systems. Has a video card, 5 x scsi i/o, fibre channel/RJ-45 network card". Has not been powered on since acquisition. Must be gone for Xmas -- you know what that means ... I hope someone wants it, if only for parts. Sincerely Martin Note These files are each 0M5 to 1M0 in size http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/A2k_Isometric.jpg http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/A2k_Front.jpg http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/A2k_Left.jpg http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/A2k_Rear.jpg http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/A2k_Right.jpg http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/A2k_BackplaneL.jpg http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/A2k_BackplaneR.jpg http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/Alpha2000_technical_summary.pdf http://www.emeritus-solutions.com/alpha/EK-400MP-OP-A01.pdf From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Nov 28 08:48:58 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:48:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Symbolics XL400/1200 In-Reply-To: <474CA08F.60002@saw.net> References: <474CA08F.60002@saw.net> Message-ID: <200711281453.JAA08615@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Subject: Symbolics XL400/1200 > The machine is available in Portland Or or preferably, up the gorge > in Goldendale Wa [...] > The machine could be shipped, but it would require a pallet for the > case, foam for the monitor and separate packing for the drive and > boards. I'm not sure how much it's worth. I have had an offer for > $370. Ooh, I wish. But I raelly thnk it would cost too much to get it here, and I'm having trouble imagining where I'd find the space for it (even though I'd be pretty highly motivated to do so for a LispM). Heck, I'd even like just the keybaord; it can't be _that_ difficult to cobble together something that would let me use it with other machines. I don't suppose anyone has such a keyboard available that wouldn't involve separating it from a working machine? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 28 10:54:16 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:54:16 +0000 Subject: Moving house and clearing out... Message-ID: <200711281654.16287.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> I've got some stuff I need to find a new home for: MicroVAX 3300, working, spec unknown LA36, big box of paper and ribbons Altos 386 RL02, believed to be working but I haven't tried it. They're in Glasgow. I'd prefer it if you collect, but can deliver at least part of the way. Gordon From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 28 11:27:25 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:27:25 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0711280641x7e16824k1a4b3864340a599f@mail.gmail.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> <002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0711280641x7e16824k1a4b3864340a599f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <474DA4FD.2090405@jbrain.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Nov 27, 2007 10:40 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Paddle inputs were likewise handled by 6560/61 VIC-I in the VIC, and >> 6567/69 VIC-II in the C64. Input only for obvious reasons. >> > > I'm fairly sure the C64 paddles was handled by the SID... > > Joe. > My bad. I wanted to illustrate the VIC-20 information, and then when I switched back to the 64, I forgot I was talking about paddles. Yes, SID takes care of paddles on 64. They pass first through a 4066, as there are 2 SID inputs, and 4 paddles inputs. *hangs head in shame, as he knew this* -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 28 11:32:24 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:32:24 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> References: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <474DA628.8000507@jbrain.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I'd still like to find a 'simple' machine for him to play on - > something on a par with a 48KB Spectrum; i.e. just ROM/RAM/CPU, > keyboard, cassette storage, and TV output. Extra credit for having a > 'common' CPU such as the Z80 or 6502 :-) (didn't the 48KB Spectrum > sell in the US via Timex? Did it have a 'proper' keyboard? Having > something with a 'real' keyboard would be nice...). Maybe an Apple ][ > is a good candidate and still readily obtainable in the US? I know you stated the 64 may be overkill, but the VIC-20? A VIC with some expansion seems to fit all of your criteria. Jim From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 28 12:14:18 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:14:18 -0500 Subject: Amiga TV Out Message-ID: <01C831C0.B6CB0760@mandr71> -------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:53:03 -0000 From: "Rod Smallwood" Subject: RE: Amiga TV Out My requirement is much less demanding. I only need to show test cards,static pictures and the like. Whats most important is that the output is as close to the full PAL standard as possible. So to widen the scope the question becomes: 'Where can I get an old system that will do broadcast standard PAL TV out.' PAL will be gone as soon as the analog systems TV systems are switched off and digital takes over. -------------Reply: FWIW, if it doesn't have to be an Amiga I think some PC Video cards also could output PAL as well as NTSC. m From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 28 12:25:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:25:08 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20071128073331.04d1fd00@mail.threedee.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> <474D0F99.1000109@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20071128073331.04d1fd00@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <474DB284.9070104@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > At 12:50 AM 11/28/2007, Jim Leonard wrote: >> David Griffith wrote: >>> This reminds me of something that's been bugging me for a while. What was >>> the thing with a woman's head appearing in a NewTek logo saying "NewTek!"? >> While I've never seen it, I think it's a good bet that the woman was Kiki Stockhammer (http://amigairc.amigarevolution.com/kiki.html). > > No, I think he's referring to Laura Longfellow, her blonde predecessor, > in an early animated Digiview promotion called "Maxine Headroom", > which you can see on YouTube: Ah yes, my mistake. A better picture and discussion is here: http://www.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/26494.html?1025391051 -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 28 12:28:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:28:59 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E512@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E512@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <474DB36B.1000607@oldskool.org> Rod Smallwood wrote: > My requirement is much less demanding. > I only need to show test cards,static pictures and the like. > Whats most important is that the output is as close to the full PAL > standard as possible. > So to widen the scope the question becomes: > 'Where can I get an old system that will do broadcast standard PAL TV > out.' I'm not sure that question can be answered, since I have never ever seen a system that does "broadcast" PAL output. You have to define what you mean by "broadcast": - If you mean "broadcast as circa 1990 and before", then composite video qualifies, but I have never seen a system with a composite output without an unacceptable level of noise. - If you mean "broadcast as circa 1991 and later", you'd need a system with a bare minimum of Y/C ("s-video") output and I don't know of any, unless you stick a later-model genlock onto an Amiga. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Nov 28 12:31:32 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:31:32 -0500 Subject: Symbolics XL400/1200 In-Reply-To: <200711281453.JAA08615@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <474CA08F.60002@saw.net> <200711281453.JAA08615@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <402D7EF4-001A-4C5A-B4DB-4C97EA51117D@xlisper.com> > I don't suppose anyone has such a keyboard available that wouldn't > involve separating it from a working machine? I think you can still buy the keyboard from Symbolics. http://www.symbolics.com/ I bought a MacIvory II board from them recently and would love to acquire the XL400/XL1200. But, as you say, the shipping is likely to be prohibitive. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 28 13:04:16 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:04:16 -0600 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <474DB284.9070104@oldskool.org> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20071127105538.Y928@shell.lmi.net> <51ea77730711271503w24daf6f9wa203fa38c8ad6bb@mail.gmail.com> <474D0F99.1000109@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20071128073331.04d1fd00@mail.threedee.com> <474DB284.9070104@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071128130338.04d2b7f8@mail.threedee.com> At 12:25 PM 11/28/2007, Jim Leonard wrote: >John Foust wrote: >>No, I think he's referring to Laura Longfellow, her blonde predecessor, >>in an early animated Digiview promotion called "Maxine Headroom", >>which you can see on YouTube: > >Ah yes, my mistake. A better picture and discussion is here: http://www.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/26494.html?1025391051 I have one of those pics, too, except mine is autographed "Thank you for the best night of my life." :-) - John From spc at conman.org Wed Nov 28 14:13:34 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:13:34 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> References: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20071128201334.GB24511@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > I'd still like to find a 'simple' machine for him to play on - something on > a par with a 48KB Spectrum; i.e. just ROM/RAM/CPU, keyboard, cassette > storage, and TV output. Extra credit for having a 'common' CPU such as the > Z80 or 6502 :-) (didn't the 48KB Spectrum sell in the US via Timex? Did it > have a 'proper' keyboard? Having something with a 'real' keyboard would be > nice...). Maybe an Apple ][ is a good candidate and still readily > obtainable in the US? A Color Computer or Color Computer 2 seems to fit the bill. The CPU is the nicest of the 8bits (IMHO) and the video screen is more logical than anything you'll find on the C64, Atari or Apple. You can even do multichannel sound, but that tends to suck up the CPU 8-) -spc (Learned to program on my first computer, a Coco) From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 15:10:40 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:10:40 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071128201334.GB24511@brevard.conman.org> References: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> <20071128201334.GB24511@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711281310k4a2ee33ci807f18f2ed6f492f@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2007 3:13 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > A Color Computer or Color Computer 2 seems to fit the bill. The CPU is > the nicest of the 8bits (IMHO) and the video screen is more logical than > anything you'll find on the C64, Atari or Apple. > > You can even do multichannel sound, but that tends to suck up the CPU 8-) I'd tend to agree. The 6809 is a lovely processor, and there aren't any of the "black box" chips that others have mentioned. The video is generated by a Motorola 6547 -- simple bitmap (except for the "semigraphics" modes) and no sprites. No specialized I/O hardware to decipher; the serial port is bitbanged directly by the CPU. Besides which, they're still abundant and cheap. It can be difficult to find a disk controller cartridge nowadays, but the cassette port is fast enough (1500 baud) so that it's really not that terrible for short programs. Plus, there's the Rainbow IDE for development... From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 15:10:40 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:10:40 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071128201334.GB24511@brevard.conman.org> References: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> <20071128201334.GB24511@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711281310k4a2ee33ci807f18f2ed6f492f@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2007 3:13 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > A Color Computer or Color Computer 2 seems to fit the bill. The CPU is > the nicest of the 8bits (IMHO) and the video screen is more logical than > anything you'll find on the C64, Atari or Apple. > > You can even do multichannel sound, but that tends to suck up the CPU 8-) I'd tend to agree. The 6809 is a lovely processor, and there aren't any of the "black box" chips that others have mentioned. The video is generated by a Motorola 6547 -- simple bitmap (except for the "semigraphics" modes) and no sprites. No specialized I/O hardware to decipher; the serial port is bitbanged directly by the CPU. Besides which, they're still abundant and cheap. It can be difficult to find a disk controller cartridge nowadays, but the cassette port is fast enough (1500 baud) so that it's really not that terrible for short programs. Plus, there's the Rainbow IDE for development... From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Nov 28 14:53:30 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:53:30 -0800 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? Message-ID: <20071128125330.kxt0m58dse80s84s@webmail3.secure-wi.com> I'm having a bad day here .. I mistook an IBM Industrial CGA display for a monochrome display, and plugged it into a monochrome display adapter port. There was no smoke or funny noises, but it definitely did not work. I've heard stories about the IBM monochrome displays being fragile when mishandled like this. Were the IBM CGA displays also this fragile? (I won't be able to test it until I dig out a CGA card. And now of course I'm just paranoid and hoping that I didn't hurt it.) Mike From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:15:36 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:15:36 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200711281715.36956.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 November 2007 17:23, Jim Brain wrote: > > 1764? ? (Snip) > But, the near max draw of the 64 (they re-used the VIC PS design and specs > for the 64, as I recall), coupled with the plethora of expansion options for > the 64, overburdened the struggling supply. > > To be fair, it's entirely possible the PS was fine and would live a > reasonable life attached to a bone stock 64. No one actually owned a > bone stock 64 for very long, though. Once you had overloaded them, it > seemed only a matter of time before they would fail. I don't think that most of the folks we saw had all that much plugged into them. A modem, usually, was about the extent of it, though there were a few who went further. > To try to add some new information, the VIC/64 joysticks should not be > overlooked for small IO projects for kids. DE9 female sockets are easy > to find, and there's Vcc, GND, 5 pins of IO and 2 pins of 8 bit ADC > available for the taking per port. In fact, using both ports with a bit > of ML and a nice BASIC program, you could make a nice electronics > trainer for possibly multiple machines (It looks like the Atari variants > had true joystick IO ports, but I know very little about the Apple and > TI units. Google says Atari created such a trainer for their 400/800 > units, so the idea held some merit. > > Quite honestly, that is a neat idea, and one that would be easy to > implement. If there's some interest, let me know. I recall "repairing" some joysticks of the type that were used with those machines, maybe c=, maybe atari 2600-type, and at one point we had bought some of the small boards that contained the actual switches (membrane-type?) and also some spare cords, since those were a common problem. I may very well have some of those stashed away in a box somewhere, if anyone's interested, still in their original retail packaging. Feel free to contact me offlist if you want 'em and I'll do some digging at that point. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:43:14 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:43:14 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0711280641x7e16824k1a4b3864340a599f@mail.gmail.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0711280641x7e16824k1a4b3864340a599f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711281743.14908.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 November 2007 09:41, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Nov 27, 2007 10:40 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > Paddle inputs were likewise handled by 6560/61 VIC-I in the VIC, and > > 6567/69 VIC-II in the C64. Input only for obvious reasons. > > I'm fairly sure the C64 paddles was handled by the SID... I can confirm this, from my recollection of the 64... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 28 16:55:03 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:55:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <474D613A.6090301@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <997929.29109.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Once again proving that this list repeats topics and questions > every few years and is in desperate need of a Wiki, I quote > myself from 2002: Uhhh, like this? http://www.classiccmp.org/wiki :^) Doc Sometimes things are repeated every few months (with new members). As for the Wiki, the knowledge-base ( www.classiccmp.org/kb/ ) is in place, but no-one uses it. I was thinking of adding some Spectrum pages a few months ago, but alas (as I suspect is the case with most of us) I have too much going on at the moment and am seriously in danger of spreading myself too thin :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 28 17:55:56 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:55:56 -0600 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: <20071128125330.kxt0m58dse80s84s@webmail3.secure-wi.com> References: <20071128125330.kxt0m58dse80s84s@webmail3.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <474E000C.9070404@oldskool.org> mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > I mistook an IBM Industrial CGA display for a monochrome display, and > plugged it into a monochrome display adapter port. There was no smoke > or funny noises, but it definitely did not work. > > I've heard stories about the IBM monochrome displays being fragile when > mishandled like this. Were the IBM CGA displays also this fragile? > > (I won't be able to test it until I dig out a CGA card. And now of > course I'm just paranoid and hoping that I didn't hurt it.) CGA is 15.75KHz H and 60Hz V; monochrome is 18.4KHz H and 50Hz V. That's pretty similar bandwidth, and I haven't heard any stories nor personally experienced that doing what you did would release the magic smoke. If you didn't hear a loud high-pitched whine, or smell ozone, I wouldn't worry about it. I *have* witnessed a monochrome monitor releasing the magic smoke through software, but the software in question was something that fed random values to all of the MDA ports in rapid succession. Who knows what kind of timings (or pulses!) were responsible for blowing it up... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:43:14 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:43:14 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0711280641x7e16824k1a4b3864340a599f@mail.gmail.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0711280641x7e16824k1a4b3864340a599f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711281743.14908.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 November 2007 09:41, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Nov 27, 2007 10:40 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > Paddle inputs were likewise handled by 6560/61 VIC-I in the VIC, and > > 6567/69 VIC-II in the C64. Input only for obvious reasons. > > I'm fairly sure the C64 paddles was handled by the SID... I can confirm this, from my recollection of the 64... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:30:48 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:30:48 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474D011B.80002@jbrain.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474D011B.80002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200711281730.48335.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 November 2007 00:48, Jim Brain wrote: > As well, in keeping with the "if it's too easy, it hides too many > details" view, rolling your own multiply or divide on a CPU without a > native implementation in silicon is a very useful exercise. This reminds me of the time I'd borrowed a "Scelbi Z80 Cookbook" and after reading the stuff they had to say in there about how to do floating point math I was on my way to developing my own floating point package for that chip. Then I had to give the book back... Never saw one since then, either. :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:34:19 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:34:19 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <474D01C7.6060203@oldskool.org> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> <474D01C7.6060203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200711281734.19616.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 November 2007 00:51, Jim Leonard wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I saw plenty of games like that (including ones that were later patched > > for hard drive installs), but I don't think I owned any commercial stuff > > that was locked to older versions of Kickstart. > > There was a music program from Electronic Arts that I remember not > working properly on an A500 (Instant Music IIRC) Lots of stuff from EA didn't seem to want to work right for our customers. We went round and round with them on the phone once. I wanted to know what the heck the software was trying to do that it wasn't loading properly. They insisted that the drive had to be perfectly aligned, and I'd just done that... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:18:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:18:57 -0500 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711281718.57317.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 November 2007 17:22, Tony Duell wrote: > > What was special about slot 8? > > In a true-blue IBM PC/XT (5160) or PortablePC (5155), and AFAIK very few, > if any clones, the data bus on slot 8 is wired to the opposite side of a > bus buffer to the data bus to the other 7 sltos. For that reason, the card > in slot 8 has to assert (pull low) one pin on the conenctor on read cycles > to that board (I forget the exact pin, I can look it up if you need it). > > The IBM Async card (RS232 card) was one card that could do this (jumper > selected). I have heard that one reason such a card was included with > every PC/XT was that it was bout the only thing that could go in slot 8, > and by putting it there at the factory it avoided too many calls from > customers 'Why doesn't the XYZ card work properly in my new XT?' Hm. Remembering an XT-type MB I had (maybe still have?) that someone had put black electrical tape over the top of one of the slot connectors, and if that was maybe slot 8, and wondering if I still have that board, maybe... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 28 15:43:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:43:07 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711281310k4a2ee33ci807f18f2ed6f492f@mail.gmail.com> References: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> <20071128201334.GB24511@brevard.conman.org> <653a64ac0711281310k4a2ee33ci807f18f2ed6f492f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <474DE0EB.5070100@yahoo.co.uk> Mark Meiss wrote: > On Nov 28, 2007 3:13 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >> A Color Computer or Color Computer 2 seems to fit the bill. The CPU is >> the nicest of the 8bits (IMHO) and the video screen is more logical than >> anything you'll find on the C64, Atari or Apple. >> >> You can even do multichannel sound, but that tends to suck up the CPU 8-) > > > I'd tend to agree. The 6809 is a lovely processor, and there aren't any of > the "black box" chips that others have mentioned. The video is generated by > a Motorola 6547 -- simple bitmap (except for the "semigraphics" modes) and > no sprites. No specialized I/O hardware to decipher; the serial port is > bitbanged directly by the CPU. > > Besides which, they're still abundant and cheap. It can be difficult to > find a disk controller cartridge nowadays, but the cassette port is fast > enough (1500 baud) so that it's really not that terrible for short > programs. Plus, there's the Rainbow IDE for development... Hmm, interesting. Is that the one that was the same as the Dragon 32 in the UK (i.e. built from the 6809 app note)? If so, I'll be bringing a Dragon 64 over at some point ( > 6 months), and I have the disk controller cartridge for it, along with the disk unit itself and quite a stack of software... So yes, maybe I'm best off looking for a Coco (I assume 'Coco' == 'Color Computer') right now, and then one day (assuming the lad's still keen) 'upgrading' him to a BBC micro, C64 etc... cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Nov 28 18:08:40 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:08:40 -0500 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: <474E000C.9070404@oldskool.org> References: <20071128125330.kxt0m58dse80s84s@webmail3.secure-wi.com> <474E000C.9070404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <474E0308.2010901@atarimuseum.com> There was an urban myth back in the late 80's and early 90's that there was a virus going around that could alter the scan rate of a video adapter so that it would blow out the monitor. Never saw any such damage to a monitor in person, so I don't know if it was just a myth or actually existed. Used to see the little cap in the corner of hercules cards pop and flicker on fire though, that was always neat. Nothing beat the Bernoulli boxes, the originals in the XT cases, there was a design flaw in the power supplies, they had these big honk'n coke can sized caps on them and they would explode! No kidding, I used to work at a downtown financial client and this one floor had dozens of them hooked up to AT's and such and every once in a while you'd hear this BANG!!! It sounded like someone smacking the XT case ontop with a hammer. Sure enough you'd open up the case and the underside would have this black mark were the cap exploded. Bournelli issued replacement p/s' and the problem went away :-) Curt Jim Leonard wrote: > mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: >> I mistook an IBM Industrial CGA display for a monochrome display, and >> plugged it into a monochrome display adapter port. There was no >> smoke or funny noises, but it definitely did not work. >> >> I've heard stories about the IBM monochrome displays being fragile >> when mishandled like this. Were the IBM CGA displays also this fragile? >> >> (I won't be able to test it until I dig out a CGA card. And now of >> course I'm just paranoid and hoping that I didn't hurt it.) > > CGA is 15.75KHz H and 60Hz V; monochrome is 18.4KHz H and 50Hz V. > That's pretty similar bandwidth, and I haven't heard any stories nor > personally experienced that doing what you did would release the magic > smoke. If you didn't hear a loud high-pitched whine, or smell ozone, > I wouldn't worry about it. > > I *have* witnessed a monochrome monitor releasing the magic smoke > through software, but the software in question was something that fed > random values to all of the MDA ports in rapid succession. Who knows > what kind of timings (or pulses!) were responsible for blowing it up... From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 28 17:48:38 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:48:38 +0000 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <200711281743.14908.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0711280641x7e16824k1a4b3864340a599f@mail.gmail.com> <200711281743.14908.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474DFE56.6070508@gjcp.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 28 November 2007 09:41, Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> On Nov 27, 2007 10:40 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>> Paddle inputs were likewise handled by 6560/61 VIC-I in the VIC, and >>> 6567/69 VIC-II in the C64. Input only for obvious reasons. >> I'm fairly sure the C64 paddles was handled by the SID... > > I can confirm this, from my recollection of the 64... > ... and I can confirm this, from the SID chip datasheet I have sitting on the bench. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 28 18:14:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:14:51 -0800 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: <20071128125330.kxt0m58dse80s84s@webmail3.secure-wi.com> References: <20071128125330.kxt0m58dse80s84s@webmail3.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <474D93FB.6960.5E11C7FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2007 at 12:53, mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > (I won't be able to test it until I dig out a CGA card. And now of > course I'm just paranoid and hoping that I didn't hurt it.) Shouldn't bother a CGA, other than not syncing. For that matter, an MDA plugged into a CGA port, while not giving an in-sync display, should not emit magic smoke. It *is* possible to damage an MDA by cranking the horizontal sync up to the point where it's *almost* too high for the display to maintain sync; i.e., you're running the MDA on the "bleeding high limit" of horizontal sync. The casualty is usually the HOT. But that's not what's going on here. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:28:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:28:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: <01C83126.60FEF8E0@mandr71> from "M H Stein" at Nov 27, 7 06:49:40 pm Message-ID: [Slot 8 in a PC/XT] > Wasn't it used (and intended) for the expansion chassis card? Not as far as I can see. The XT 'Guide to Operations' states that the only card that can go in slot 8 is the Async adapter (and it does mention the epxaniso unit elsewhere, so it's obvious IBM were considering that option in that manual). Looking at the scehamtics for the Expanison Unit it the O&A TechRef, it appears that pin B08 (the pin in question that has to be asserted on read cycles) is passed on from the expansion unit to the main system, but that the expanison unit itself never asserts it. So I suppose you _could_ put the expansion interface card in slot 8, but then (a) the exp[ansion unit self-tests oulw fail, and (b) the only thing you coulf put in the expanison unit would be Async cards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 18:10:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:10:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: <20071128125330.kxt0m58dse80s84s@webmail3.secure-wi.com> from "mbbrutman-cctalk@brutman.com" at Nov 28, 7 12:53:30 pm Message-ID: > > I'm having a bad day here .. > > I mistook an IBM Industrial CGA display for a monochrome display, and > plugged it into a monochrome display adapter port. There was no smoke > or funny noises, but it definitely did not work. > > I've heard stories about the IBM monochrome displays being fragile > when mishandled like this. Were the IBM CGA displays also this fragile? No. Doing the revers (5151 MDA monitor into CGA card) lets the smoke out of the monitor, but the CGA monitor shouldn't be easily damagrd. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:56:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:56:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT : CRT replacement In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20071128110720.08ce75b0@alpha.ccii.co.za> from "Wouter" at Nov 28, 7 11:13:56 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony and all > > > >Why do you suspect that the CRT has failed? Have yoy actually tested it > >(e.g is the heater open-circuit?) > > K, here's the story. The machine is about a thousand km from here. It was > sent to the Motorola agents (1600 km from here :) where the technician > diagnosed a faulty CRT. He also swapped his test CRT in, proving that the > problem is with the CRT, but he's not prepared to part with the CRT he has. Can I confirm that just the CRT -- the 'glass bottle' was swapped. The point is that some people use 'CRT' to mean 'monitor. I doubt a service engineer would do that, but I am, after all, hearing this second- or third- hand. What is the observed synmptom? Nothing on the screen at all? do you have a seervice manual/schematic. Normally CRT faults are quite easy to diagnose. The main ones are : Open-circuit heater (check with an ohmmeter betwen the heater pins with the basee connector unplugged Inter-electrode shorts or leakage (look for crazy electrode voltages only when the CRT is connected). Cracked.broekn glass letting the vacuum out. > >Is it more like TV CRT ot a 'socpe one? > > That's what I meant :) > > OK, so I have > > >CRT is marked with the following numbers : > > > >P/N95-P09122T001 > >P/N96/80396A98 > >AEG396512 > >D/14/390GH it could also be D/14/390GHB > > > >(None of these pop up on google). > > > >The size of the CRT is as follows; > >L: 360mm > >W: 100mm > >H: 125mm > > A length of 360 yells "oscilloscope" to me... no? Assumeing 'lenght' is the distance from screen to pin base, then yes. That CRT has a small deflection angle, which would suggest an eleectrostatic type. > I'm thinking that if it's a 'scope tube almost anything will work? Actually, no. TV-type CRTs are much more generic than 'cope CRTs. The latter seem to be different for every device (only semi-joking). A scheamtic of the unit, or at least the display section, would be a great help. At least we could see if the CRT has anything really unconventional about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:35:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:35:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 27, 7 04:07:17 pm Message-ID: > So? The poor kid is likely to develop CTS before he > hits 18. I took COBOL in HS, and man did I hate it. > FORTRAN was much more funner. As a general point, I would think that any language used for this should be very interactive, like BASIC, Forth, Lisp, and so on. A kid is going to lose interest fast if he has to edit the source file, then run the compiler and maybe the linker. > Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler for a > peecee or whatever else? Here's a question - what > 8-bitters (or defunct 16-bitters, Atari, Amiga, you > know, the common stuff) had COBOL available? There was a Cobol for Z80-basied systems, mostly CP/M, but it wouldn't suprise me if it was ported to the TRS-80 too. I do know it was available for the BBC Micro with Z80 second processor, for example (but that is a CP/M machine). Was there ever a 6809-based Cobol to run under OS-9? It wouldn't suprise me. I am also pretty suee there was an MS-DOS based Cobol. I think it was avaialbe for the HP150, for example, which means it must have been available for the IBM PC. > > A smattering of assembly language to begin with > maybe. That's something someone will learn only if > they want to. Lots of people have problems with it. Hence my continuing recomendation for BBC BASIC, which has a built-in assembler for whatever processor the machine is based on (origianlly, of course, the 6502 in the BBC micro, but there's a Z80 version of BBC Basic (Sinclair Z88, I think, and certainly the Tetung Einstein) and of couse and ARM version in the Acorn Archimedes, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 18:07:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:07:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 28, 7 08:45:04 am Message-ID: > > > OK, I've managed to catch up with the thread now. Nice to see so many replies > (I figured it'd generate a few, but I didn't expect this many :-) > > A few individual points: > > Re. BBC micro: will definitely have one over here at some point. It'd be nice > to find a US-spec one, but I expect they're a little rare even in the US (I've There's no real need to get a US-spec one. Any beeb other than th very early ones will have an SMPSU, and there's a clear link to fit to the PSU board to make it work on 115V mains. And I am sure you cna find soemthing that will display one of the Beeb's video outputs (darn it, you've got composited PAL video or serparate TTL-level RGB signals there). > only ever seen one on the UK side). Main worry about the BBC though is that > it's perhaps overkill for that initial learning step (i.e. focus on > ROM/RAM/CPU and basic I/O) but is a fantastic machine once initial concepts > have been grasped. (C64 perhaps falls into the same category as the BBC - it > might be a bit too daunting initially simply because it can do so much more > than the basic stuff) But if you think of soemthign simpler, then it's either hard to larn to use (becuase yyou don't have a high-level language in ROM), or it's full of kludges (I am thinkin of the ZX80 and Jupiter Ace here) that makes it very hard for a beginner to understnad because the tricks are _not_ in the introductory books. Maybe a single-board computer based round one of those microcontrollers with Tiny-BASIC (Intel 8052 and successors, for example). Hook up a video terminal, and you can play about flashing LEDs on the I/O pins, etc. And the circuit should be easy enough to understnad. > I'm still not sure how to approach the low-level electronics side of things. > Way back when in the UK, we had some electronics 'kits' at school which had > basic logic gates mounted on a board and allowed kids to jump wires between > them to make circuits (they contained a few LEDs, an LDR, some switches etc. > too). Blue fronts, with the component legends drawn out in white (you couldn't > actually see the ICs themselves). Did something similar exist in US schools? > That sort of thing might be a good practical introduction... The problem is that many of the better educational kits are now collector's items in their own right, and hard to find. There is a review of some of the currently-available ones in the latest Elektor magazine, BTW, some of thelm look tolerable with a plugblock type breatboard, real loose components, and so on. Actually, wahat I'd doo is get a plugblock, a few simple TTL ICs, LEDs, series resistors, etc, and teach it that way. Yes, you'll get blown components, but they're cheap enough to replace. > I'd still like to find a 'simple' machine for him to play on - something on a > par with a 48KB Spectrum; i.e. just ROM/RAM/CPU, keyboard, cassette storage, > and TV output. Extra credit for having a 'common' CPU such as the Z80 or 6502 Tandy CoCo 1 or 2? It's essentially the Motorola application circuit for the 6883 SAM, so it's straightforward. OK, the CPU is a 6809, which is not as common as the others, but it _is_ a nice, easy, CPU to learn. And I cna't believe they're rare. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 18:16:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:16:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711281310k4a2ee33ci807f18f2ed6f492f@mail.gmail.com> from "Mark Meiss" at Nov 28, 7 04:10:40 pm Message-ID: > > A Color Computer or Color Computer 2 seems to fit the bill. The CPU is > > the nicest of the 8bits (IMHO) and the video screen is more logical than > > anything you'll find on the C64, Atari or Apple. > > > > You can even do multichannel sound, but that tends to suck up the CPU 8-) > > > I'd tend to agree. The 6809 is a lovely processor, and there aren't any of I also suggested it before reading the rest of the thread. The 6809 is probably the easieest 8-biotter to learn. > the "black box" chips that others have mentioned. The video is generated by > a Motorola 6547 -- simple bitmap (except for the "semigraphics" modes) and I think you mean 6847 here. In any case the video is geenrated by a combination of the 6883 SAM (which adderesses the main meory) and the 6847 VDG (which turns the data read from RAM into the video signal). IIRC, the semigraphics mode come from programming the SAM for graphics and the VDG fro text. > no sprites. No specialized I/O hardware to decipher; the serial port is > bitbanged directly by the CPU. The I/O is very simple. 2 6821 PIAs. One essentially scans the keyboard. The other cotnrols the VDG, drives the DAC (used for sound, cassette out, and joustick ports), and handles bit-banged I/O to the cassette and serial ports. -tony From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 17:20:06 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:20:06 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711281520l547ce10bja67ec37fb804c3ac@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2007 5:23 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > To try to add some new information, the VIC/64 joysticks should not be > overlooked for small IO projects for kids. DE9 female sockets are easy > to find, and there's Vcc, GND, 5 pins of IO and 2 pins of 8 bit ADC > available for the taking per port. In fact, using both ports with a bit > of ML and a nice BASIC program, you could make a nice electronics > trainer for possibly multiple machines (It looks like the Atari variants > had true joystick IO ports, but I know very little about the Apple and > TI units. Google says Atari created such a trainer for their 400/800 > units, so the idea held some merit. The TI joystick port uses the same 9-pin connector as the Atari and Commodore, but wired differently and without any ADC. Both joysticks share the same connector and signal pins back to the console, which generates "test joystick 1" and "test joystick 2" signals. There are adapters for plugging in an Atari joystick (because the TI ones were really phenomenally wretched), but all they do is rearrange the pins -- there aren't any with an ADC or support for paddle controllers, as far as I know. One very nice item that's still readily available for the Atari and probably works just fine with the C64 or VIC as well is the "AtariLab" kit, which includes a few sensors, basic programming information, and ideas for experiments. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 18:24:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:24:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474DE0EB.5070100@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 28, 7 03:43:07 pm Message-ID: [Tandy CoCo] > Hmm, interesting. Is that the one that was the same as the Dragon 32 in the UK > (i.e. built from the 6809 app note)? Similar, but not the same. Yes, they are both based on the same application note for the 6883, but there are differences. The main one is that the Dragon has a Centornics port, the CoCo has a serial port. Both make use of the 3 otherwise unused PIA lines. On the CoCo, they're used for the bit-banged RS232 port, on the Dargon, they're the Stb/, Busy and Ack/ lines o fhte Sentornics port, the data for which comes from the keyboard scan output port. Since the keyboard input is ignored during printing, and the printer only looks at data if STB/ is asserted, this causes no problems. The other differnce is that he BASIC ROM is different. In particular the tokens are in a different order (so a binary program CSAVEd on one machine will not CLOAD into the thother). Some plug0-in ROMs, including, I usepct, the disk contorller, don't work in both machines. Don't expect your Dragon disk interface to work in a CoCo. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 28 18:25:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:25:09 -0700 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:08:40 -0500. <474E0308.2010901@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <474E0308.2010901 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > There was an urban myth back in the late 80's and early 90's that there > was a virus going around that could alter the scan rate of a video > adapter so that it would blow out the monitor. Never saw any such > damage to a monitor in person, so I don't know if it was just a myth or > actually existed. Its not an urban legend. The issue was that there was a sync register (horizontal sync, I think) for which you could poke in a zero value. That's what I recall anyway, although I can't dredge up anything by google at the moment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 18:26:44 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:26:44 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474DE0EB.5070100@yahoo.co.uk> References: <474D7EF0.4000406@yahoo.co.uk> <20071128201334.GB24511@brevard.conman.org> <653a64ac0711281310k4a2ee33ci807f18f2ed6f492f@mail.gmail.com> <474DE0EB.5070100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711281626t4e692adbv3c77fe109bc3cc1f@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2007 4:43 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hmm, interesting. Is that the one that was the same as the Dragon 32 in > the UK > (i.e. built from the 6809 app note)? > > If so, I'll be bringing a Dragon 64 over at some point ( > 6 months), and > I > have the disk controller cartridge for it, along with the disk unit itself > and > quite a stack of software... > > So yes, maybe I'm best off looking for a Coco (I assume 'Coco' == 'Color > Computer') right now, and then one day (assuming the lad's still keen) > 'upgrading' him to a BBC micro, C64 etc... As I understand it, the Color Computer / "CoCo" is very similar to the Dragon 32/64, except with some differences in memory locations -- things like the location of the "speedup poke" and so forth. I don't have the slightest idea whether the CoCo version of OS-9 runs on a Dragon. If you happen to try to get a US CoCo, be aware that there are a number of levels to which they can be upgraded -- from 4K to 64K of memory and Color BASIC vs. Extended Color BASIC. (Many 32K systems actually have 64K installed, with half of it jumpered away.) The keyboards are nice, though: you can take them completely apart for cleaning without much effort. The CoCo 3 is a very different beast inside. It's a great little computer (wouldn't give mine up for the world), but something to stay away from if understanding the design is a big deal: almost everything outside the processor is implemented on a custom ASIC. From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 18:28:56 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:28:56 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: <653a64ac0711281310k4a2ee33ci807f18f2ed6f492f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711281628n718adf0fha01dfddf31503543@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2007 7:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think you mean 6847 here. > > In any case the video is geenrated by a combination of the 6883 SAM (which > adderesses the main meory) and the 6847 VDG (which turns the data read > from > RAM into the video signal). IIRC, the semigraphics mode come from > programming > the SAM for graphics and the VDG fro text. Right: the 6847, sorry. (Out of idle and off-topic curiosity, does a Dragon also display "MICROSOFT" on the screen when you do a "CLS 9"?) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Nov 28 18:38:03 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:38:03 -0600 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474E09EB.4030305@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: > No. Doing the revers (5151 MDA monitor into CGA card) lets the smoke out > of the monitor, but the CGA monitor shouldn't be easily damagrd. > > -tony > > Ok, I'm feeling a little better. I'm not touching any more hardware today. Tomorrow I will install a CGA card into the machine (5160) and try again. The industrial CGA is quite the looker .. it has a Plexiglass shield covering the front, it is rather boxy in shape, and it has air filters covering the intake vents on the bottom. The monitor also has a fan .. I was quite surprised when I powered it up and heard the fan noise. Mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 18:56:50 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:56:50 -0800 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90711281656k69ac6b5bi93f4af93c7f3b8c7@mail.gmail.com> http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=swp1466 DEC MODEL PDP11/04 COMPUTER 4 EACH Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST Phoenix, AZ Opening Bid: US$ 1,700.00 BIN: $ 2,700.00 More than I would want to pay, but someone might want these.... From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:18:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:18:57 -0500 Subject: IBM 5271 (PC3270) host interface options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711281718.57317.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 November 2007 17:22, Tony Duell wrote: > > What was special about slot 8? > > In a true-blue IBM PC/XT (5160) or PortablePC (5155), and AFAIK very few, > if any clones, the data bus on slot 8 is wired to the opposite side of a > bus buffer to the data bus to the other 7 sltos. For that reason, the card > in slot 8 has to assert (pull low) one pin on the conenctor on read cycles > to that board (I forget the exact pin, I can look it up if you need it). > > The IBM Async card (RS232 card) was one card that could do this (jumper > selected). I have heard that one reason such a card was included with > every PC/XT was that it was bout the only thing that could go in slot 8, > and by putting it there at the factory it avoided too many calls from > customers 'Why doesn't the XYZ card work properly in my new XT?' Hm. Remembering an XT-type MB I had (maybe still have?) that someone had put black electrical tape over the top of one of the slot connectors, and if that was maybe slot 8, and wondering if I still have that board, maybe... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:30:48 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:30:48 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474D011B.80002@jbrain.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474D011B.80002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200711281730.48335.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 November 2007 00:48, Jim Brain wrote: > As well, in keeping with the "if it's too easy, it hides too many > details" view, rolling your own multiply or divide on a CPU without a > native implementation in silicon is a very useful exercise. This reminds me of the time I'd borrowed a "Scelbi Z80 Cookbook" and after reading the stuff they had to say in there about how to do floating point math I was on my way to developing my own floating point package for that chip. Then I had to give the book back... Never saw one since then, either. :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 28 16:34:19 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:34:19 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <474D01C7.6060203@oldskool.org> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> <474D01C7.6060203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200711281734.19616.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 November 2007 00:51, Jim Leonard wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I saw plenty of games like that (including ones that were later patched > > for hard drive installs), but I don't think I owned any commercial stuff > > that was locked to older versions of Kickstart. > > There was a music program from Electronic Arts that I remember not > working properly on an A500 (Instant Music IIRC) Lots of stuff from EA didn't seem to want to work right for our customers. We went round and round with them on the phone once. I wanted to know what the heck the software was trying to do that it wasn't loading properly. They insisted that the drive had to be perfectly aligned, and I'd just done that... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Nov 28 20:20:46 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:20:46 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <010901c83172$ed3fe700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200711290220.lAT2Kkbd014202@mail.itm-inst.com> At 10:58 PM 11/27/2007, Ensor wrote: >Hi, > > > Besides, where would you find a COBOL compiler for a > >peecee or whatever else.... > >Microsift....they certainly produced one for MS-DOS (dunno if there >was ever a "VisualCOBOL" though). Fujitsu Cobol .NET is a "Visual COBOL" workalike. Object oriented COBOL, OLE, etc. Hoping to keep this marginally on-topic, I've used it to keep some code running on Windows that originated on a PR1ME, ported to Wang, ported to VMS, ported to MS-DOS, then ported to Windows. For what it does, COBOL is very portable. -Rick From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Nov 28 21:19:03 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:19:03 -0500 Subject: Access to IOPAGE Registers using PDP-11 Opearting Systems In-Reply-To: <474AB8F9.1070709@softjar.se> References: <200711260307.lAQ37ZZV024029@dewey.classiccmp.org> <474AB8F9.1070709@softjar.se> Message-ID: <474E2FA7.4050702@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > Might be, but I can't figure out when. But I guess if you wanted to > map something else into memory as well (such as a shared library), > which wasn't position independent, and which expected to be at APR7... > I just mentioned it since it's technically no difference between any > of the APRs for a user program. Jerome Fine replies: I agree as well. The point is that splitting the available memory into two or more sections never helps as far as I have ever found. But you do mention an important point. I once had to deal with a device driver that mapped the IOPAGE registers to APR5 (120000 - 137776) since it had to use APR6 and APR7 addresses (140000 - 177776) to access a shared library. It was very strange to see the CSR for a serial port referenced as 136500. It was even worse to debug the code since every debug software package assumed that the IOPAGE was correctly located in APR7 addresses. Hardware ODT was about the only way! > Anyway, the overhead of mapping in the I/O page is a one time cost. Which is acceptable! >>> However, with normal privileged programs, the I/O page is always >>> present at APR7 even if you don't do anything. >> >> Also VERY helpful. However, if so, then would there be any reason >> why APR7 could not be mapped to user memory in the normal manner so >> that the user program has a full 65536 bytes of address space, but >> then the PREVIOUS DATA space is mapped to KERNEL providing the user >> with complete access to the IOPAGE registers via that 2 instruction >> example that I gave at the beginning? I can't see that there would >> be any greater loss of security since being able to change the IOPAGE >> registers either directly or indirectly is just as damaging! >> >> Please comment? > > > You can have a privileged program that isn't mapped to the I/O page. > The problem is that the kernel sets the PSW at various times for you, > so you cannot expect to be able to keep control of the previous mode > field of the PSW from your program. RSX is multitasking. Things can > change between one instruction and the next in your task. One typical > mistake people might do is to manipulate the APR registers themself, > just because they are accessible, and the program is privileged. This > won't work, since a contect switch can occur at any time, and the APR > registers are not preserved between context switches. Instead, they > are recreated from scratch, based on your mapping context every time > the task is selected to run. > > So in that case, it fails not because of security considerations, but > because of system design. You need to have the I/O page mapped in > properly. > > Put another way: RSX makes sure the previous mode field is set to user > at every occasion the system have executed in kernel mode and goes > back to user mode. That is a security design. To make this different > for privileged programs would incur extra costs everywhere, whithout > any real gain. Privileged programs can get around this "problem" > anyway, but not by running in user mode and expecting the previous > mode field to be set to kernel. Thank you for this information on RSX-11. This aspect of RSX-11 certainly precludes using the PREVIOUS DATA mode bits in the PSW. Under RT-11, the operating system can be relied upon to behave in a completely reliable manner, i.e. after an EMT request, the PSW bits for the PREVIOUS DATA mode are unchanged. Since security is not an aspect of RT-11 (after all, the resident monitor code and data are normally in the user space), allowing the user access to the KERNEL via PREVIOUS DATA space doesn't seem to have caused any concern. Likewise with the IOPAGE registers. >> In addition, if an operating system caches the blocks in a file, the >> same speed is achieved. > > > Not really. By using a ram disk, you don't need to run through the > various layers of the operating system to deal with the system call > and the device handling, even if that ends up just accessing a disk cache. Doesn't seem to make a measurable difference in E11. The time to copy 65536 blocks of a RAM: disk is the same as the time to copy a 65536 block disk in cache memory. The first time takes a bit longer, but after those 32 MB are in cache, the time is the same. NOTE that this is under RT-11 under E11 under W98SE on a Pentium III with 768 MB of physical memory. The copy time for an MSCP device of 32 MB is just over 2 seconds. The copy time for E11's HD: device is about 1 second using a device driver and about 1/2 second if the subroutines are in user space - the overhead of an EMT request is not needed. >> It is just a bit more complicated since the memory address can be >> anywhere in the 4 MB of emulated PDP-11 memory. So 22 bit address is >> required > - which can be determined during initialization. The even >> better aspect is that the code (only about a dozen instructions which >> set up the 6 IOPAGE registers) can be in user space which avoids the >> overhead of a system call. > > Why limit yourself to 4 MB? > If you have a device that gives you the storage, you can basically let > if be of any size you want to. I was referring to the 4 MB of "emulated PDP-11 memory", not the disk storage. Since the 4 MB requires a 22 bit address, 2 IOPAGE registers must be set - in addition to the disk storage block number which can be 32 bits (don't have that much storage quite yet, but soon), the number of bytes in the I/O "transfer", the transfer direction (read or write) and the physical unit number of the device. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Nov 28 21:22:57 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:22:57 -0600 Subject: SEBHC has moved to Google groups Message-ID: <000001c83237$238f67d0$176fa8c0@obie> SEBHC - the Society of Eight-Bit Heath Computerists - has become a Google group. If you are interested in the H8, the H89, the better half of the H/Z100, or the ETxx trainers, please come join us. We maintain an extensive archive of Heath 8-bit software, both HDOS and CP/M, as well as a large collection of hardware and software documentation. This is a great group which includes several ex-Heath employees as well as others deeply versed in the workings of these computers. The group is closed in the interests of sanity and to protect the archive; if you're interested come to http://groups.google.com/group/sebhc?lnk=gschg and request membership. Jack No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.9/1155 - Release Date: 11/27/2007 8:30 PM From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 28 23:53:02 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:53:02 -0600 Subject: test Message-ID: <00b101c8324c$1af07a50$6a00a8c0@JWEST> test, please ignore From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Nov 29 00:24:08 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:24:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault Message-ID: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> I've finally acquired enough of the missing boards to try for a console prompt. But I want to do this carefully. I don't want to fry any of these modules if my power supplies are not on spec. I'm still waiting for a power key that's in transit (graciously copied by another classiccmp'er), but I figured I could just set the power controller to local and crank it up. So, after cleaning and reforming the removable capacitors[1], I figured that I wanted to apply power to the system with all the loads removed, and confirm proper voltages on the outputs. I left the backplane completely empty of boards, and I disconnected the power cable to the TU58 controller, just to be safe. I get a good AC indication on the controller when I plug into the main AC supply circuit. Switching the breaker on and the control switch from OFF to LOCAL gives good air from the (loud!) blower, but... What I see on the power controller indicators is the '+2.5 FAIL' and 'REG FAIL' LEDs both light up, then several seconds elapse and the 'OVER VOLTAGE' LED will flick on and the REG FAIL flicks off for about 1/2 second, then the whole sequence repeats. Each cycle takes about 8 seconds. A couple of photos of this can be found at: http://www.rogerwilco.org/VAX11-750/psfault I admit that I've never dealt with such a complex power system before, and I've just spent the last hour or so reading through the 'VAX 11/750 H7104 Power System Technical Description' document that I found on vt100.net. Trying to get my brain around what's going on, I came across the fault isolation section and it seems that what I'm seeing on the Power Controller LEDs maybe indicates a "Fault in the CPU backplane". Of course, there is no CPU installed yet. Could this indication be normal when no boards are installed? I'm hesitant to install any of my precious boards until I'm convinced that the power supplies are good, but maybe I have to install one (or more) boards to actually close the loop on something. Further reading tells me that there is a +2.5V-at-the-backplane monitoring function in the +2.5V power supply. I haven't yet looked at this particular issue up close, but maybe the monitor circuit is not complete without the proper board in the backplane. Is this a sensible explanation? I just want to be sure that putting one or more boards into the backplane is a safe next step. Thanks! - Jared [1] System hasn't been powered since 1994. I went through the motions, but I don't think the caps needed any help; the readings during the reforming process seemed to show them in good shape from the start. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 29 01:55:54 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:55:54 +0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474E708A.7080501@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> OK, I've managed to catch up with the thread now. Nice to see so many replies >> (I figured it'd generate a few, but I didn't expect this many :-) >> >> A few individual points: >> >> Re. BBC micro: will definitely have one over here at some point. It'd be nice >> to find a US-spec one, but I expect they're a little rare even in the US (I've > > There's no real need to get a US-spec one. Any beeb other than th very > early ones will have an SMPSU, and there's a clear link to fit to the PSU > board to make it work on 115V mains. And I am sure you cna find soemthing > that will display one of the Beeb's video outputs (darn it, you've got > composited PAL video or serparate TTL-level RGB signals there). > >> only ever seen one on the UK side). Main worry about the BBC though is that >> it's perhaps overkill for that initial learning step (i.e. focus on >> ROM/RAM/CPU and basic I/O) but is a fantastic machine once initial concepts >> have been grasped. (C64 perhaps falls into the same category as the BBC - it >> might be a bit too daunting initially simply because it can do so much more >> than the basic stuff) > > But if you think of soemthign simpler, then it's either hard to larn to > use (becuase yyou don't have a high-level language in ROM), or it's full > of kludges (I am thinkin of the ZX80 and Jupiter Ace here) that makes it > very hard for a beginner to understnad because the tricks are _not_ in > the introductory books. I thought the Jupiter Ace was pretty straightforward, to be honest. >> I'd still like to find a 'simple' machine for him to play on - something on a >> par with a 48KB Spectrum; i.e. just ROM/RAM/CPU, keyboard, cassette storage, >> and TV output. Extra credit for having a 'common' CPU such as the Z80 or 6502 > > Tandy CoCo 1 or 2? It's essentially the Motorola application circuit for the > 6883 SAM, so it's straightforward. OK, the CPU is a 6809, which is not as > common as the others, but it _is_ a nice, easy, CPU to learn. You can actually add a CompactFlash card to a ZX Spectrum fairly easily (one chip to handle address decoding, then swap the ROM). Gordon From cc at corti-net.de Thu Nov 29 03:51:13 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:51:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: OT : CRT replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Tony Duell wrote: >>> CRT is marked with the following numbers : >>> >>> P/N95-P09122T001 >>> P/N96/80396A98 >>> AEG396512 >>> D/14/390GH it could also be D/14/390GHB >>> >>> (None of these pop up on google). >>> >>> The size of the CRT is as follows; >>> L: 360mm >>> W: 100mm >>> H: 125mm >> >> A length of 360 yells "oscilloscope" to me... no? > > Assumeing 'lenght' is the distance from screen to pin base, then yes. > That CRT has a small deflection angle, which would suggest an > eleectrostatic type. Of course it's an oscilloscope CRT, hence the number D14-390G, or written in the old nomenclature DG14-390, an electrostatically deflected CRT ('D'), with green phospor ('G') and 14cm diameter ('14'), model 390. Christian From fryers at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 04:09:19 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:09:19 +0000 Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> References: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: All, On 29/11/2007, J Blaser wrote: [Description of 2.5V rail power supply fault.] Firstly, I have never used an 11/750 so I am offering some general advice and assuming a linear PSU with overvoltage crowbar circuit. Firstly, no smoke after power on, you have to be happy about that, and at least some life! If you have a reasonably accurate voltmeter of sorts, what are the actual voltages the power supply is producing? So far it is not clear if the fault is with the voltage generation or detection circuits in the power supplies. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 29 04:59:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:59:01 +0000 Subject: Amiga emulation for Mac OS X? Message-ID: <20071129105901.GA17069@usap.gov> Hi, all, In the past, I've run real Amigas (from my 1986 A1000 to my 1997 A4000), and I've run plenty of Amiga emulation ("Amiga Forever", etc.). Can anyone recommend a good URL for running Amiga apps under my present platform of MacOS 10.4? I have apps, I have ROMs, etc. I just need a good Intel-Mac-based Amiga engine. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 29-Nov-2007 at 10:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -29.0 F (-33.9 C) Windchill -44.3 F (-42.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.2 kts Grid 112 Barometer 682.8 mb (10523 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From philippe at cowpig.ca Thu Nov 29 08:42:15 2007 From: philippe at cowpig.ca (Philippe Vachon) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:42:15 -0500 Subject: test message Message-ID: <20071129144215.GA27192@cowpig.ca> This is a test (as requested by Jay), please ignore. From drb at msu.edu Thu Nov 29 08:42:37 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:42:37 -0500 Subject: test, pse ignore Message-ID: <200711291442.lATEgb4e001799@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> test testing testy aardvark From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 29 08:42:51 2007 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:42:51 +0000 Subject: Test, please ignore Message-ID: <200711291442.51873.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Hello Jay! Gordon From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 28 23:30:56 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:30:56 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711281520l547ce10bja67ec37fb804c3ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> <653a64ac0711281520l547ce10bja67ec37fb804c3ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <474E4E90.4050302@jbrain.com> Mark Meiss wrote: > One very nice item that's still readily available for the Atari and probably > works just fine with the C64 or VIC as well is the "AtariLab" kit, which > includes a few sensors, basic programming information, and ideas for > experiments. > I Googled for some information, but was not as successful as I wish. Do you have a link or two that tells all the features? I gather the unit plugged into JoyPort 2 on the Atari, and it looks like it has inputs for ADC (paddles), but I didn't see what else it contains, or if it contains output. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 29 08:48:49 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:48:49 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474E708A.7080501@gjcp.net> References: <474E708A.7080501@gjcp.net> Message-ID: > From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net ---snip--- >> >> But if you think of soemthign simpler, then it's either hard to larn to >> use (becuase yyou don't have a high-level language in ROM), or it's full >> of kludges (I am thinkin of the ZX80 and Jupiter Ace here) that makes it >> very hard for a beginner to understnad because the tricks are _not_ in >> the introductory books. > > I thought the Jupiter Ace was pretty straightforward, to be honest. > ---snip--- Hi The tricky thing I recall was how they interleave video and execution. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM From drb at msu.edu Thu Nov 29 08:58:01 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (drb at msu.edu) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:58:01 -0500 Subject: test Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:58:01 -0500 Message-ID: <200711291458.lATEw1L8041303@keith.ezwind.net> This is a test mailing From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 29 09:00:55 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:00:55 -0800 Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: References: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: > From: fryers at gmail.com > > All, > > On 29/11/2007, J Blaser wrote: > > [Description of 2.5V rail power supply fault.] > > Firstly, I have never used an 11/750 so I am offering some general > advice and assuming a linear PSU with overvoltage crowbar circuit. > > Firstly, no smoke after power on, you have to be happy about that, and > at least some life! > Hi I am not familiar with these machine either. Still, I suspect that he may be looking at a broble of feedback. Many high power outputs use remote sensing to supply the correct voltage at the load, not at the powersupply. He states that he doesn't have anything connected. One would still use common sense. Don't connect real components until one knows things are working correctly. Put dummy loads on the supplies and make sure that any remote sensing is properly connect at the loads. The loads don't have to be full current loads in many cases. I've found that various auto lamps are enough to get a feel for correct operation. For low current, dash lamps and for high current, head lamps. Don't expect these lamps to light with 2.5 volts on them, they are just someplace to sink current. Lamps are almost constant current devices, over small ranges of voltage. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 29 09:23:43 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:23:43 -0500 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image In-Reply-To: <474E6545.3000002@msu.edu> References: <474E6545.3000002@msu.edu> Message-ID: <38F6FB92-D8B4-4554-A12B-D881829D7549@neurotica.com> On Nov 29, 2007, at 2:07 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Yep. If there /is/ anything on either of those that I'm missing, > let me know, but I swear I've looked. > So here's a semi-stupid question; having just acquired a Data I/O > EEPROM programmer which is also fairly adept at dumping EEPROMs, is > it possible to use the Data I/O to dump the VT100 rom in question? > That is, if I choose a PROM or EEPROM type that's compatible with > the type of ROM in use on the VT100 board, is it likely that I'll > be able to read it on the programmer like a standard PROM/EEPROM? > I'm kinda new at this particular corner of the hardware field so I > have no idea... can someone set me straight? Absolutely...that's a pretty common use of such device programmers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 09:27:42 2007 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:27:42 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <474E4E90.4050302@jbrain.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> <653a64ac0711281520l547ce10bja67ec37fb804c3ac@mail.gmail.com> <474E4E90.4050302@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <653a64ac0711290727h7cfd5347jcc4224e635d27596@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 29, 2007 12:30 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > I Googled for some information, but was not as successful as I wish. Do > you have a link or two that tells all the features? > > I gather the unit plugged into JoyPort 2 on the Atari, and it looks like > it has inputs for ADC (paddles), but I didn't see what else it contains, > or if it contains output. I can't seem to find a good reference, but I seem to recall that at least some of the sensor connectors are bidirectional, as one favorite trick was to use the thing as a model train controller. I actually have one of the things at home, so I'll take a look through the documentation and see if there's some relevant material I can scan for you. From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Nov 29 09:31:25 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:31:25 -0600 Subject: Old laptop hard drive "goo" Message-ID: <474EDB4D.5080602@tdh.com> I just received an old-ish (1990) Toshiba T1000LE laptop and it wouldn't boot, so I took a look at the hard drive and there seems to be some type of goo oozing out of it. It's a Conner hard drive, nothing too abnormal. I didn't think a hard drive contained anything that could ooze out. Any idea what it could be and does that mean the drive is pretty much toast? Let the magic goo out? From marvin at west.net Thu Nov 29 09:55:42 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:55:42 -0800 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? Message-ID: <474EE0FE.5574F417@west.net> From: Richard In article <474E0308.2010901 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > There was an urban myth back in the late 80's and early 90's that there > was a virus going around that could alter the scan rate of a video > adapter so that it would blow out the monitor. Never saw any such > damage to a monitor in person, so I don't know if it was just a myth or > actually existed. Its not an urban legend. The issue was that there was a sync register (horizontal sync, I think) for which you could poke in a zero value. Wasn't the issue with a MONO monitor rather than CGA? ISTR that the horizontal frequency would get altered overheating the flyback with the resultant loss of the magic smoke. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 29 11:09:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:09:53 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474EF261.8070407@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> OK, I've managed to catch up with the thread now. Nice to see so many replies >> (I figured it'd generate a few, but I didn't expect this many :-) >> >> A few individual points: >> >> Re. BBC micro: will definitely have one over here at some point. It'd be nice >> to find a US-spec one, but I expect they're a little rare even in the US (I've > > There's no real need to get a US-spec one. Any beeb other than th very > early ones will have an SMPSU, and there's a clear link to fit to the PSU > board to make it work on 115V mains. And I am sure you cna find soemthing > that will display one of the Beeb's video outputs (darn it, you've got > composited PAL video or serparate TTL-level RGB signals there). Oh, sure... it's just going to be a while before I can get one shipped here, and I wondered how practical it was to find a US-spec one on this side of the pond. Plus I'm sort of curious; the only one I saw in the UK had been reverted to UK spec, so it was basically a UK machine with all the extra RF shielding that the US machines had. As I've stumbled across pretty much every other Acorn in existence at one time or another, it'd be nice to see a kosher US beeb :-) You're right about the PSUs though - plus I think that for small SMPSUs (i.e. without lots of protection circuitry on the 'hot' side) there's some trick to making them work from 110V anyway (i.e. the '110V operation' stuff can be added after the fact if needed). >> only ever seen one on the UK side). Main worry about the BBC though is that >> it's perhaps overkill for that initial learning step (i.e. focus on >> ROM/RAM/CPU and basic I/O) but is a fantastic machine once initial concepts >> have been grasped. (C64 perhaps falls into the same category as the BBC - it >> might be a bit too daunting initially simply because it can do so much more >> than the basic stuff) > > But if you think of soemthign simpler, then it's either hard to larn to > use (becuase yyou don't have a high-level language in ROM), or it's full > of kludges (I am thinkin of the ZX80 and Jupiter Ace here) that makes it > very hard for a beginner to understnad because the tricks are _not_ in > the introductory books. Yep, it's definitely possible to go 'too simple'. Someone's suggestion of a VIC 20 was an interesting one. I only ever had one of those years ago, and confess to never doing anything with it, so know nothing about them other than a vague notion of them being a 'simplified C64'. I did wonder about an Acorn Atom, but - whilst less complex than the BBC but still kluge-free - they're not the most robust of machines (physically or electronically). > Maybe a single-board computer based round one of those microcontrollers > with Tiny-BASIC (Intel 8052 and successors, for example). Hook up a video > terminal, and you can play about flashing LEDs on the I/O pins, etc. And > the circuit should be easy enough to understnad. That could work. I'm not sure what the best approach is - whether to go the 'simple computer and also try to tech some basic electronics first' route, or as you say there, try to combine the two initially. >> I'm still not sure how to approach the low-level electronics side of things. >> Way back when in the UK, we had some electronics 'kits' at school which had >> basic logic gates mounted on a board and allowed kids to jump wires between >> them to make circuits (they contained a few LEDs, an LDR, some switches etc. >> too). Blue fronts, with the component legends drawn out in white (you couldn't >> actually see the ICs themselves). Did something similar exist in US schools? >> That sort of thing might be a good practical introduction... > > The problem is that many of the better educational kits are now > collector's items in their own right, and hard to find. There is a review > of some of the currently-available ones in the latest Elektor magazine, > BTW, some of thelm look tolerable with a plugblock type breatboard, real > loose components, and so on. > > Actually, wahat I'd doo is get a plugblock, a few simple TTL ICs, LEDs, > series resistors, etc, and teach it that way. Yes, you'll get blown > components, but they're cheap enough to replace. True. I'm not sure how the ones I remember from school worked - you didn't get to see the ICs, so I wonder if under the hood it was something a bit more complex to get around the blown component problem :-) By the time I saw those things I'd already taught myself by taking the blown component route... but I could still appreciate at the time how they were good tutorial aids. (wish I knew who made them... I'm pretty sure it wasn't unilab, who were the people who normally did a lot of the school science kit) >> I'd still like to find a 'simple' machine for him to play on - something on a >> par with a 48KB Spectrum; i.e. just ROM/RAM/CPU, keyboard, cassette storage, >> and TV output. Extra credit for having a 'common' CPU such as the Z80 or 6502 > > Tandy CoCo 1 or 2? It's essentially the Motorola application circuit for the > 6883 SAM, so it's straightforward. OK, the CPU is a 6809, which is not as > common as the others, but it _is_ a nice, easy, CPU to learn. Yep, I saw that other post before I saw yours. That's definitely looking like a good candidate, assuming the hardware doesn't prove to be too rare. I've never prodded a 6809 myself (just 6502 and Z80), but I guess I could stand to learn too :-) cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 11:25:44 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:25:44 +0000 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: References: <474E0308.2010901@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <575131af0711290925yc45e02blb53f22220a1f5e89@mail.gmail.com> On 29/11/2007, Richard wrote: > Its not an urban legend. The issue was that there was a sync register > (horizontal sync, I think) for which you could poke in a zero value. > > That's what I recall anyway, although I can't dredge up anything by > google at the moment. Surely this is a variant on the legendary HCF operand? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 11:39:39 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:39:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old laptop hard drive "goo" In-Reply-To: <474EDB4D.5080602@tdh.com> Message-ID: <554953.95842.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Michael Lee wrote: > I just received an old-ish (1990) Toshiba T1000LE > laptop and it wouldn't > boot, so I took a look at the hard drive and there > seems to be some type > of goo oozing out of it. It's a Conner hard drive, > nothing too abnormal. > > I didn't think a hard drive contained anything that > could ooze out. Any > idea what it could be and does that mean the drive > is pretty much > toast? Let the magic goo out? Hmm, sounds like a bad valve cover seal. Perhaps the cover wasn't tightened properly when the timing belt was last changed. How many miles are on this again? No, but seriously, is it coming out from between the two halves, or is it just on the outside? I know that I have seen some machines where they put a rubber bumper or guard on/near the hard drive, to hold is secure inside the computer, and the rubber had turned to goo. Or, there is a rubber gasket between the halves of the drive, and that could very well have turned to goo over time. At least some drives *cough* RD53/Micropolis *cough* had a rubber head stop that often turns to goo with age. It's not likely to leak out though. ISTR the Macintosh portable having a really unreliable Conner 3.5" 40mb SCSI drive (with a screwy pinout), that was gooey in mine. Long time ago though, could have been caused by something else, like a coke spilled into the computer. I distinctly remember gooey in there though. -Ian From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Nov 29 12:06:07 2007 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:06:07 -0600 Subject: Old laptop hard drive "goo" In-Reply-To: <554953.95842.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <554953.95842.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474EFF8F.5070900@tdh.com> Since it was a laptop, it was stored upright in a bag for 15+ years. The goo looks like some type of old lubricant or oil. I've been told nothing had been spilled on it, and the goo is definitely pooled out from the drive halves at the bottom. It seems that gravity had pulled it down and out through the seam. Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Hmm, sounds like a bad valve cover seal. Perhaps the > cover wasn't tightened properly when the timing belt > was last changed. How many miles are on this again? > > No, but seriously, is it coming out from between the > two halves, or is it just on the outside? I know that > I have seen some machines where they put a rubber > bumper or guard on/near the hard drive, to hold is > secure inside the computer, and the rubber had turned > to goo. Or, there is a rubber gasket between the > halves of the drive, and that could very well have > turned to goo over time. At least some drives *cough* > RD53/Micropolis *cough* had a rubber head stop that > often turns to goo with age. It's not likely to leak > out though. ISTR the Macintosh portable having a > really unreliable Conner 3.5" 40mb SCSI drive (with a > screwy pinout), that was gooey in mine. Long time ago > though, could have been caused by something else, like > a coke spilled into the computer. I distinctly > remember gooey in there though. > > -Ian > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 29 12:15:48 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:15:48 -0800 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image Message-ID: <474F01D4.3080901@bitsavers.org> > is it likely that I'll > be able to read it on the programmer like a standard PROM/EEPROM? Most likely. You will need to verify on the schematic that they didn't use the extra lines to control programming as chip selects, though. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 12:49:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:49:38 -0800 Subject: Old laptop hard drive "goo" In-Reply-To: <474EDB4D.5080602@tdh.com> References: <474EDB4D.5080602@tdh.com> Message-ID: <474E9942.30517.620E6040@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2007 at 9:31, Michael Lee wrote: > I didn't think a hard drive contained anything that could ooze out. Any > idea what it could be and does that mean the drive is pretty much > toast? Let the magic goo out? A lot of small hard drives use a ferrofluid seal on the motor shaft. When it works, it's great--forms an impervious low-friction seal. I wonder if that's what your "goo" is. Cheers, Chuck 'Conner--we put the "goo" in "google"' From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Nov 29 13:02:05 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:02:05 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: References: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <474F0CAD.60708@rogerwilco.org> Simon Fryer wrote: > Firstly, no smoke after power on, you have to be happy about that, and > at least some life! > Yes, I am quite pleased about this as well! Especially since I completely disassembled both power supplies for cleanup. In fact, a couple of the PS PCBs went through the dishwasher to clean up the remains to 'rodent residue'. On the whole, it seems that I got them back together properly! ;) > If you have a reasonably accurate voltmeter of sorts, what are the > actual voltages the power supply is producing? So far it is not clear > if the fault is with the voltage generation or detection circuits in > the power supplies. > Valid points. What I see at the 2.5V output terminals on the PS itself is a moving target. There's a cycle of sorts. First I see about 1.5V that climbs up through 1.6, 1.7, on up to about 2.0V over a period of seconds. The the voltage looks like it drops to 0V momentarily, then back to 1.5V and the cycle repeats. BTW, I'm using a little digital meter, so it's hard to tell what's happening when with all the digits changing. On second thought, I do have an old analog VOM I'll dig out and see if that confirms what I think I'm seeing on the digital. I didn't determined if this is synchronous with the LED pattern I see, but it probably is...I'll look tonight. - Jared From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Nov 29 13:12:14 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:12:14 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: References: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <474F0F0E.3030507@rogerwilco.org> dwight elvey wrote: >> From: fryers at gmail.com >> >> All, >> >> On 29/11/2007, J Blaser wrote: >> >> [Description of 2.5V rail power supply fault.] >> >> Firstly, I have never used an 11/750 so I am offering some general >> advice and assuming a linear PSU with overvoltage crowbar circuit. >> >> Firstly, no smoke after power on, you have to be happy about that, and >> at least some life! >> >> > Hi > I am not familiar with these machine either. > Still, I suspect that he may be looking at a broble of feedback. > Many high power outputs use remote sensing to supply the correct > voltage at the load, not at the powersupply. > As I said, I hadn't looked at that closely yet. I think this is really my next step. I'm having trouble finding a full set of PS Engineering Drawings for this system, though, so it's means I have to sharpen my mental pencil a bit more than otherwise, and get to work. I was being lazy and hoping someone knew offhand if what I'm seeing is normal with nothing in the backplane. > He states that he doesn't have anything connected. One would still > use common sense. Don't connect real components until one knows > things are working correctly. Put dummy loads on the supplies and > make sure that any remote sensing is properly connect > at the loads. > Yes, this is a good plan, based on what I discover with the monitoring circuit. Thanks for the nudge in the ribs, reminding me to slow down and find out what's going on before committing real boards. > The loads don't have to be full current loads in many cases. > I've found that various auto lamps are enough to get a feel > for correct operation. For low current, dash lamps and for > high current, head lamps. > I'd better prepare for high current! The supply leads to the backplane are fatter than the battery cables in your car!...probably about 3/4" diameter. (I have no idea on the wire gage...probably triple-0, or something :) ) The hardware maintenance manual suggests that the basic set of CPU boards will draw about 400-500 watts, some of which is supplied by the 5V supply, but still, at 2.5V, that's a pretty big current! > Don't expect these lamps to light with 2.5 volts on them, they > are just someplace to sink current. Lamps are almost constant > current devices, over small ranges of voltage. Ah, yes. Thanks for the pointers. Hope to have more to report later tonight. - Jared From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 29 13:15:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:15:23 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: <474F0CAD.60708@rogerwilco.org> References: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> <474F0CAD.60708@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <474F0FCB.4040206@jetnet.ab.ca> J Blaser wrote: > Yes, I am quite pleased about this as well! Especially since I > completely disassembled both power supplies for cleanup. In fact, a > couple of the PS PCBs went through the dishwasher to clean up the > remains to 'rodent residue'. On the whole, it seems that I got them > back together properly! ;) You still want to clean dishes with that? From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Nov 29 13:18:47 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:18:47 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: <474F0FCB.4040206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> <474F0CAD.60708@rogerwilco.org> <474F0FCB.4040206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <474F1097.3050408@rogerwilco.org> woodelf wrote: > J Blaser wrote: > >> Yes, I am quite pleased about this as well! Especially since I >> completely disassembled both power supplies for cleanup. In fact, a >> couple of the PS PCBs went through the dishwasher to clean up the >> remains to 'rodent residue'. On the whole, it seems that I got them >> back together properly! ;) > You still want to clean dishes with that? Don't worry, I ran the machine through another washing cycle ("Power Wash") before putting dishes back into it! My wife wasn't sure about my mental state at the time I washed the PCBs, though. She said the same thing! - Jared From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 29 14:36:23 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:36:23 -0500 Subject: Old laptop hard drive "goo" Message-ID: <01C8329D.C1B24840@MSE_D03> --- Michael Lee wrote: > I just received an old-ish (1990) Toshiba T1000LE > laptop and it wouldn't > boot, so I took a look at the hard drive and there > seems to be some type > of goo oozing out of it. It's a Conner hard drive, > nothing too abnormal. > > I didn't think a hard drive contained anything that > could ooze out. Any > idea what it could be and does that mean the drive > is pretty much > toast? Let the magic goo out? ------------- I've had that problem with a Conner drive in an Ogivar laptop; it was the gasket between the housing and cover decomposing the same way as drive rollers etc. My drive was still working though and, after removing the goo and wrapping a layer of tape around the perimeter, still is (at least so far). m From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 29 15:33:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:33:55 -0700 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:56:50 -0800. <1e1fc3e90711281656k69ac6b5bi93f4af93c7f3b8c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1e1fc3e90711281656k69ac6b5bi93f4af93c7f3b8c7 at mail.gmail.com>, "Glen Slick" writes: > http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=swp1466 > > DEC MODEL PDP11/04 COMPUTER 4 EACH > Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST > Phoenix, AZ > > Opening Bid: US$ 1,700.00 > BIN: $ 2,700.00 > > More than I would want to pay, but someone might want these.... Looks like noone else wanted to pay that much either. I don't know where they came up with a price like $1700 for 4 11/04s ($425 ea?), particularly since there are no peripherals and working state is unknown and you can't preview in person. I haven't been tracking 11/0x prices on ebay, but a couple years back I bought an 11/03 w/dual RL01s, LA-120, VT-100, manuals, paper for LA-120, etc. all for $500, so $425 ea. for 11/04s in an unknown state seems a little high. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 15:08:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:08:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <653a64ac0711281626t4e692adbv3c77fe109bc3cc1f@mail.gmail.com> from "Mark Meiss" at Nov 28, 7 07:26:44 pm Message-ID: > > On Nov 28, 2007 4:43 PM, Jules Richardson > wrote: > > > > > Hmm, interesting. Is that the one that was the same as the Dragon 32 in > > the UK > > (i.e. built from the 6809 app note)? > > > > If so, I'll be bringing a Dragon 64 over at some point ( > 6 months), and > > I > > have the disk controller cartridge for it, along with the disk unit itself > > and > > quite a stack of software... > > > > So yes, maybe I'm best off looking for a Coco (I assume 'Coco' == 'Color > > Computer') right now, and then one day (assuming the lad's still keen) > > 'upgrading' him to a BBC micro, C64 etc... > > > As I understand it, the Color Computer / "CoCo" is very similar to the > Dragon 32/64, except with some differences in memory locations -- things > like the location of the "speedup poke" and so forth. I don't have the I thought the speedup poke, at least in the CoCo involved reprogramming the 6883 [1], and that the location of that was determined by the chips themselves, not by the BASIC firmware. [1] Ths 6883 SAM (Synchonous Address Multiplexer) chip is connected to the processor address bus, but not the data bus. There are a number of reserved addresses near the top of the memory space, which, by writing to them, set and clear 1-bit registers in the SAM to select things like graphics mode, video start address, memeory map type, and so on. > slightest idea whether the CoCo version of OS-9 runs on a Dragon. I would not be at all suprised if it didn;t. Although I'm in the UK and love the 6809, I';ve never done much serious stuff with the Dragon. I have a few CoCos (including a CoCo3), though. > > If you happen to try to get a US CoCo, be aware that there are a number of > levels to which they can be upgraded -- from 4K to 64K of memory and Color > BASIC vs. Extended Color BASIC. (Many 32K systems actually have 64K I think you certainly want to find one with Extanded Color BASIC. It's certainly needed for a disk system, and it's got all the high-res graphics commands (the graphics _hardware_ is there on a Color BASIC macbine, but you have to POKE about to get anything out of it). Early machines (CoCo 1s?) had one 8K ROM for Color BASIC, and a second 8K ROM that was added alongside it for Extended Color BASIC. Later machins (CoCo 2s?) have one ROM socket that can be jumpered either for an 8K Color BASIC ROM or a 16K Extended Color BASIC ROM. > installed, with half of it jumpered away.) The keyboards are nice, though: Some CoCo 1s had 32K RAM chips (== 64K chips with half defective). CoCo 2s normally have real 64K chips (actually 64K*4, 2 of them). The power-on memory map is to have 32K RAM in the bottom half of the address space, the top half of the spave being essentially ROM (16K for the cartridge slot, then 8K Extended Color BASIC, then 8K COlour BASIC), with I/O replacing part of that last ROM (this is all controlled by the SAM chip, BTW). It's possible to program the SAM to disable the ROMs and have 64K RAM (less the I/O space). Obviosuly this is only useful if you have something in the RAM to execute! > you can take them completely apart for cleaning without much effort. > > The CoCo 3 is a very different beast inside. It's a great little computer > (wouldn't give mine up for the world), but something to stay away from if > understanding the design is a big deal: almost everything outside the > processor is implemented on a custom ASIC. Indeed. This ASIC (called GIME (Grpahics, Interrupts, Memory, Enhancments) iIRC) replaces the SAM and VDG chips, and does rather more. For example you can have 512K memory, 640*192 graphics, 80 column text, true upper and lower case, and so on. The CoCo 3 also has a 32K BASIC ROM. There is some data on this ASIC in the CoCo 3 service manua, but nowhere near as much as the data sheets for the SAM and VDG give for those chips. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 15:20:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:20:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474E708A.7080501@gjcp.net> from "Gordonjcp" at Nov 29, 7 07:55:54 am Message-ID: > I thought the Jupiter Ace was pretty straightforward, to be honest. The ACE used that obnoxious trick of contenting a totem pole output in series with a 1k resuistor against a 3-state output. If the latter was enabled, it drove the output signal (overriding the signal for m the 1k resistor), if the latter was disabled, then a totem pole drive the output. That 'trick' is not going to be mentioned in any introductory book on digital electroncs (thank %deity!), so it might well cause a lot of confusion. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 14:55:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:55:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: <474D93FB.6960.5E11C7FF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 28, 7 04:14:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Nov 2007 at 12:53, mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > > > (I won't be able to test it until I dig out a CGA card. And now of > > course I'm just paranoid and hoping that I didn't hurt it.) > > Shouldn't bother a CGA, other than not syncing. For that matter, an > MDA plugged into a CGA port, while not giving an in-sync display, > should not emit magic smoke. The design of the horizontal drive stages is very different between the MDA nad CGA monitors. The CGA monitor is conventional, in that there's the normal horizontal oscillaotr/PLL circuit. I doubt that it would run far enough off-frequency to damage the output stage no matter what frequency of sync pulse you gave it (althoguh it will obviously not lock). The MDA monitor is simple. There is no horizontal oscillator circuit _at all_. The incoming sync pulses (or rather, drive pulses) go to the base of the horizontal drive transistor, which is transformer-coupled to the output transistor. It's possible to drive that way off frequncy, where the output stange is no longer resonant, and then the output transistor (HOT to you) fails. I suspect (although I am not trying it), that you could damage an MDA monitor by plugging it into a CGA card. Note that this applies to the IBM monitors. Some clone MDA monitors had the conventional oscillator/PLL circuit, I assume they're a lot harder to damage. With regards to the 'killer poke' somebofy mentioned, It's impossible to bring the drive frequency down to 0, the signal is capcitor and transofrmer coupled. But it's certainly possible to reprogram the 6845 on the MDA board to drive the monitor way off-frequency, at which point the HOT is likely to fail. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 15:24:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:24:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 29, 7 06:48:49 am Message-ID: > > > > I thought the Jupiter Ace was pretty straightforward, to be honest. > > > ---snip--- > > Hi > The tricky thing I recall was how they interleave video and execution. Err, no. Not in the Ace. The Ace has a separate video address counter chain, dot shift register, etc. Of the 3K in a standard Ace (6 off 2114s), 1K is on the processor bus only, to store user words, 1K is the video RAM, 1K is the character generator RAM (loaded from ROM at power-up, it can be reprogrammed later). There are interrconnected by 3-sate buffers contending with totem pole drivers and 1K resistors (see the other post). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 15:34:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:34:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474EF261.8070407@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 29, 7 11:09:53 am Message-ID: > You're right about the PSUs though - plus I think that for small SMPSUs (i.e. > without lots of protection circuitry on the 'hot' side) there's some trick to > making them work from 110V anyway (i.e. the '110V operation' stuff can be > added after the fact if needed). Most small SPMSUs start out by rectifying and smoothing the mains to give about 340V DC (in Eurrope). If you have such a supply, you can replace the input stage with a voltage doubler circuit and run it off 115V -- the output of that will be about 340V DC, so the rest of the supply will neither know nor care. You run into problems if there's other stuff run directly off the mains input -- like a small linear supply to provide the startup voltage, or a cooling fan, or...). You'll need to modify that too. > > Tandy CoCo 1 or 2? It's essentially the Motorola application circuit for the > > 6883 SAM, so it's straightforward. OK, the CPU is a 6809, which is not as > > common as the others, but it _is_ a nice, easy, CPU to learn. > > Yep, I saw that other post before I saw yours. That's definitely looking like > a good candidate, assuming the hardware doesn't prove to be too rare. I've I see them quite offten on E-bay. I don;t think they're rare _at all_. > never prodded a 6809 myself (just 6502 and Z80), but I guess I could stand to > learn too :-) You'll love it. It's waht the 6502 should ahve been. 16 bit index registers, 16 bit stack pointer -- no make that 2 16 bit stack pointers, progam counter relative addressign modes and long branches for position-independant code, 'zero page' in any 256 byte page of memory, 2 accumulators that can be combindd to make a 16 bit one, the most orthogonal instruction set of any 8-bitter, etc, etc, etc. I always wish the Beeb had used that as its CPU. Acorn clearly knew about it (they'd made a 6809-bsed System CPU board), but for some odd reason they didn't use it in the Beeb. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 29 15:48:57 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:48:57 -0500 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711291648.57340.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 29 November 2007, Richard wrote: > Looks like noone else wanted to pay that much either. I don't know > where they came up with a price like $1700 for 4 11/04s ($425 ea?), > particularly since there are no peripherals and working state is > unknown and you can't preview in person. I haven't been tracking > 11/0x prices on ebay, but a couple years back I bought an 11/03 > w/dual RL01s, LA-120, VT-100, manuals, paper for LA-120, etc. all for > $500, so $425 ea. for 11/04s in an unknown state seems a little high. An 11/04 is somewhat more desirable of a machine than the 11/03 is (it's UNIBUS instead of QBUS), but you still lack the MMU, and only have a calculator-keypad frontpanel instead of a full lights and toggles frontpane, and it's relatively slow. So, it's not generally all that desirable to people, compared to something like an 11/83, or even an 11/10, or 11/34. Of course, who knows if they even had any board in them still. I'd guess that if they were actually complete, and mostly working (but without any interesting I/O boards), $150-$250 ea wouldn't be too far out of line. I/O boards could dramatically raise the value of the system, though... eg, if there were a SCSI controller or something in the systems. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 29 16:11:37 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:11:37 -0600 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474F3919.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> You're right about the PSUs though - plus I think that for small SMPSUs (i.e. >> without lots of protection circuitry on the 'hot' side) there's some trick to >> making them work from 110V anyway (i.e. the '110V operation' stuff can be >> added after the fact if needed). > > Most small SPMSUs start out by rectifying and smoothing the mains to give > about 340V DC (in Eurrope). If you have such a supply, you can replace > the input stage with a voltage doubler circuit and run it off 115V -- the > output of that will be about 340V DC, so the rest of the supply will > neither know nor care. Yep - I was poking around at the Acorn ACW PSU recently [1] and it struck me that it should be hard to modify pretty much any 'simple' SMPSU to run off US 'mains', even if it was notionally 220V (-ish) only. You're right about 'auxiliary' stuff run direct from the AC input of course. [1] It was a model made by VMS - *not* the same as the one in your hand-drawn ACW schematics. I actually found two ACWs with the same supply, suggesting I didn't just happen to have someone's post-production replacement. I ended up drawing out the schematics, which I should probably mail a copy of to you sometime just for completeness' sake... >> never prodded a 6809 myself (just 6502 and Z80), but I guess I could stand to >> learn too :-) > > You'll love it. It's waht the 6502 should ahve been. 16 bit index > registers, 16 bit stack pointer -- no make that 2 16 bit stack pointers, > progam counter relative addressign modes and long branches for > position-independant code, 'zero page' in any 256 byte page of memory, 2 > accumulators that can be combindd to make a 16 bit one, the most > orthogonal instruction set of any 8-bitter, etc, etc, etc. Sounds good. I got on quite well with the Z80, which was the first CPU I ever did any assembly with, and the 6502 always seemed a bit clunky in comparison (not that I remember the Z80 being particularly elegant or anything!) > I always wish the Beeb had used that as its CPU. Acorn clearly knew about > it (they'd made a 6809-bsed System CPU board), but for some odd reason > they didn't use it in the Beeb. You know, one day when I get time (yeah, right), I'd quite like to build one of the 6809 System boards. I've got the board manual/schematic, and I believe I've got a copy of the firmware ROM somewhere. I've also got at least one Control Universal System-bus 6809 board and want to compare one to the Acorn schematic sometime - as Acorn licensed the System technology to CU, it'll be interesting to see if the CU board is essentially the same as the Acorn one. I'm not sure [1] when the 6809 CPU came out? Acorn's System 1 was circa 1978/79, so maybe that pre-dates the 6809 by a while - and it was just for legacy reasons that Acorn stuck with the 6502 for the beeb after using it for the System and Atom machines? (somewhere I've even got an Acorn System bus expansion module for a BBC micro, so it'll take System-era boards) [1] Google seems to suggest 1979 - perhaps too late (or back then, too expensive) for use over the 6502... cheers Jules From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Nov 29 16:38:04 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:38:04 +0100 Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: <474F0CAD.60708@rogerwilco.org> References: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> <474F0CAD.60708@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: Hi Jared, as far as I know, those power supplies are switchers. I once read a story that the power supplies in the *11/780* should not be run without a certain load. Perhaps that has something to do with the voltage regulation ... So, as suggested, take a few headlight bulbs from a car and connect that as a load for the power supply. Do check for "sense" wiring!Henk. > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:02:05 -0700> From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org> To: > Subject: Re: VAX 11/750 power supply fault> > Simon Fryer wrote:> > Firstly, no smoke after power on, you have to be happy about that, and> > at least some life!> > > > Yes, I am quite pleased about this as well! Especially since I > completely disassembled both power supplies for cleanup. In fact, a > couple of the PS PCBs went through the dishwasher to clean up the > remains to 'rodent residue'. On the whole, it seems that I got them > back together properly! ;)> > > If you have a reasonably accurate voltmeter of sorts, what are the> > actual voltages the power supply is producing? So far it is not clear> > if the fault is with the voltage generation or detection circuits in> > the power supplies.> > > > Valid points. What I see at the 2.5V output terminals on the PS itself > is a moving target. There's a cycle of sorts. First I see about 1.5V > that climbs up through 1.6, 1.7, on up to about 2.0V over a period of > seconds. The the voltage looks like it drops to 0V momentarily, then > back to 1.5V and the cycle repeats.> > BTW, I'm using a little digital meter, so it's hard to tell what's > happening when with all the digits changing. On second thought, I do > have an old analog VOM I'll dig out and see if that confirms what I > think I'm seeing on the digital. I didn't determined if this is > synchronous with the LED pattern I see, but it probably is...I'll look > tonight. > > - Jared From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 29 17:10:05 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:10:05 -0600 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST References: <200711291648.57340.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <000a01c832dd$00a936f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... >> Looks like noone else wanted to pay that much either. I don't know >> where they came up with a price like $1700 for 4 11/04s ($425 ea?), To which Pat replied... > An 11/04 is somewhat more desirable of a machine than the 11/03 is (it's > UNIBUS instead of QBUS), but you still lack the MMU, and only have a > calculator-keypad frontpanel instead of a full lights and toggles > frontpane, and it's relatively slow. So, it's not generally all that > desirable to people, compared to something like an 11/83, or even an > 11/10, or 11/34. Slow != UnDesireable, or HP 2100's wouldn't sell so much higher than HP 21MX/E's ;) 11/04's seem a bit rare to me. And for "curb appeal" no different than an 11/34. > Of course, who knows if they even had any board in them still. Looks like a full boardset to me... did you click on the camera icon for the picture show pics? Not to mention, they look to be in awfully nice condition. > I'd guess that if they were actually complete, and mostly working (but > without any interesting I/O boards), $150-$250 ea wouldn't be too far > out of line. I/O boards could dramatically raise the value of the > system, though... eg, if there were a SCSI controller or something in > the systems. Tis all subjective personal preference. I don't have an 11/04, and don't particularly want one. Is that because it's an 04? No, it's because of space, time, money, already owning other 11's, not being a dedicated -11-only collector, etc. Given that the above systems looked complete and in very good shape, I think the asking price of $425 each wasn't totally out of line (albeit yes, a bit high to *me*). More to the point, I don't think the auction is a fair indicator of the worth of an 11/04, because he bundled 4 of them at a high (total) price. Perhaps few people want to buy all 4 and spend $1700, but perhaps there is someone out there that would jump at buying one at 1/4th the price. Jay From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 29 17:11:07 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:11:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Chris M wrote: > Here's a question - what > 8-bitters (or defunct 16-bitters, Atari, Amiga, you > know, the common stuff) had COBOL available? > What was SNOBOL? What about COBAL? I think I > have COBAL for the TI PC. I'm relatively new to the Amiga scene (6 years experience - 5 on real hardware, 1 under emulation), but I have never heard about any of them being for the Amiga. I know you can program on the Amiga using the following languages: Assembler Amiga BASIC AMOS BASIC Blitz BASIC Rexx Arexx C Machine Code I don't think I missed any. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 17:25:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:25:10 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474F3919.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <474F3919.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <474ED9D6.3719.630AA6F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2007 at 16:11, Jules Richardson wrote: > [1] Google seems to suggest 1979 - perhaps too late (or back then, too > expensive) for use over the 6502... 1979 sounds right to me. I recall a BYTE magazine interview with the design team. One topic was the low clock speed (initially 1 MHz). The response from one of the team members was something to the effect "if we would have known that people would rate CPUs by their clock speed, we would have put a waveguide on the 6809". I believe that the 6809 actually has *fewer* instructions in its set than the 6800 (depending on what one calls an instruction), which was something very unusual at the time. But the 6809 was an evolutionary dead-end. It came out too late, and while it turned in very respectable performance, it was hampered by lousy product timing--the 68K debuted in the same year and was in a different category altogether. I recall seeing the 6809 datasheet and looking for information at the 1979 Wescon (IIRC) and coming home with a pile of 68K literature and forgetting about the 6809 entirely. It's ironic in a way--6800-family products are still made, as are 68K products. But the 6809 is forgotten. Apparently, there's a VHDL implementation for those amenable to FPGA versions. Cheers, Chuck From Mark at Misty.com Thu Nov 29 17:27:56 2007 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:27:56 -0500 Subject: free DEC AlphaServer 1000A systems Message-ID: <20071129232756.GA19475@lucky.misty.com> Hi, I've got a pair of AlphaServer 1000A systems available for free to whoever wants them. I need the space. These were previously rack-mounted, include memory and disk, and were working last time I powered them on. I'm near Plymouth Meeting, PA, USA, about five minutes from the PA turnpike exit. Please email me if interested. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) http://mail-cleaner.com/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 29 17:28:08 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:28:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amgia 600 and IBM PC Radio was Re: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <357586.41837.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <247569.70616.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Wish I kept my mouth shut now! Not actually tried using a CFlash card yet myself, though I have purchased the necessary kit. Also, my A600's are still both down :( Perhaps I can find the time to look at them over Christmas (once my brother has gone back to his place). My laptop (Dell Latitude C610) appears to have 2 PCMCIA style slots too (one is currently occupied with a wireless LAN card which I don't use), but I'm more into retro gear than modern PC (or Mac) stuff so I know nothing about type 1 or 2 etc. Getting back on topic, you may wish to know that the Amiga 600 can have a maximum of 6MB RAM using original expansions units (1MB built-in, 1MB in trapdoor and 4MB (fast RAM) via PCMCIA RAM card) or there is a modern piece of kit that can be fitted internally to add something like 128MB of RAM (I don't have this). I own a 2MB PCMCIA RAM card and another PCMCIA card that can have 4Mb (Megabits, not MB) RAM when fully populated - I haven't used this yet, so I don't know whether it's populated or not! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: I actually have a 600 myself, but never used it. I'll be bugging you with questions before too long LOL LOL. So what's the largest cflash card it can utilize? I assume that's a type 1 slot, although I don't know the difference between a type 1 or type 2. My *new* IBM PC Radios have a pcmcia slot also (that's what it looks like anyway. --- Andrew Burton wrote: > No, sorry. > > I prefer the Amiga 600, even though many consider it > to be the runt of the litter. However, it's the only > Amiga (other than the A1200) to have a PCMCIA slot > which has proven to be useful to me. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 29 17:30:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:30:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071129152552.G50720@shell.lmi.net> > > Here's a question - what > > 8-bitters (or defunct 16-bitters, Atari, Amiga, you > > know, the common stuff) had COBOL available? > > What was SNOBOL? What about COBAL? I think I > have COBAL for the TI PC. For a while, I had a binder on one of my office bookshelves labelled "COBAL", due only to having a temporary worker who couldn't spell COBOL. What is the model number for the EAM card interpreter? At the college, I had a plugboard from one of them specifically set up for putting the relevant fields of COBOL source files in handy locations on the card (the interpreter did 60 columns of text, so it did not line up with the columns on cards). That particular plugboard was clearly labelled "COBOL Interpreter". So, yes, there was a COBOL interpreter :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Nov 29 17:26:21 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:26:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711292331.SAA01552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > With regards to the 'killer poke' somebofy mentioned, it's impossible > to bring the drive frequency down to 0, the signal is capcitor and > transofrmer coupled. Well, I suppose this depends on whether you consider the absence of a signal to be a frequency of 0. :-) > But it's certainly possible to reprogram the 6845 on the MDA board to > drive the monitor way off-frequency, at which point the HOT is likely > to fail. Sticking a 0 in the register doesn't necessarily mean setting the frequency to 0; I would expect that the register is, loosely, the reciprocal of the frequency (much the way BRGs in UARTs often require the baud rate to be set by specifying a value by which some clock is divided to get the baud clock). Setting it to zero would likely give you as high a frequency as the electronics can generate, under which circumstances it's no surprise the magic smoke gets let out given what you said about the horizontal stage of the MDA monitor. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 17:45:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:45:22 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474EDE92.14698.631D2395@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2007 at 23:11, Andrew Burton wrote: >> I'm relatively new to the Amiga scene (6 years experience - 5 on real hardware, 1 under emulation), but I have never heard about any of them being for the Amiga. I know you can program on the Amiga using the following languages: > Assembler > Amiga BASIC > AMOS BASIC > Blitz BASIC > Rexx > Arexx > C > Machine Code I think your list is way too short. For example, I don't see "Absoft FORTRAN"... SNOBOL exists as the high-performance SPITBOL for the 68K from Catspaw, Inc. but primarily for *nix platforms. See: http://www.snobol4.com/ What was COBAL? Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 29 17:53:44 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:53:44 -0500 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST In-Reply-To: <000a01c832dd$00a936f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200711291648.57340.pat@computer-refuge.org> <000a01c832dd$00a936f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200711291853.44349.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 29 November 2007, Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote... > > >> Looks like noone else wanted to pay that much either. I don't > >> know where they came up with a price like $1700 for 4 11/04s ($425 > >> ea?), > > To which Pat replied... > > > An 11/04 is somewhat more desirable of a machine than the 11/03 is > > (it's UNIBUS instead of QBUS), but you still lack the MMU, and only > > have a calculator-keypad frontpanel instead of a full lights and > > toggles frontpane, and it's relatively slow. So, it's not > > generally all that desirable to people, compared to something like > > an 11/83, or even an 11/10, or 11/34. > > Slow != UnDesireable, or HP 2100's wouldn't sell so much higher than > HP 21MX/E's ;) I know, but it also doesn't have a toggle-switch front panel. Speed and/or toggle-switches (and probably to some extent size) make machines more interesting. This has neither speed nor a toggle-switch front panel, but does have UNIBUS and is relatively small. I'm mostly claiming that it would be less *popular* than a machine that was faster or had an interesting frontpanel. I'm sure that some people would find it desirable, but there's many more people that would prefer a machine with speed, a frontpanel, or an MMU. > 11/04's seem a bit rare to me. And for "curb appeal" no different > than an 11/34. I'm fairly certain that the only difference between the two is the CPU boardset, and the label. IIRC, they both use the same CPU backplane, but I'm not 100% sure on that. > > Of course, who knows if they even had any board in them still. > > Looks like a full boardset to me... did you click on the camera icon > for the picture show pics? Not to mention, they look to be in awfully > nice condition. By guessing, it looks like one CPU board, the front-panel controller, two (memory?) boards, some other I/O board (probably console port), and a BC11 unibus cable going out the chassis. This would mean that it's possible that the machine very minimal I/O and would at least need a terminator board (which also means no boot roms). Unfortunately, it's hard/impossible to tell what boards are actually in them from the pictures. > > I'd guess that if they were actually complete, and mostly working > > (but without any interesting I/O boards), $150-$250 ea wouldn't be > > too far out of line. I/O boards could dramatically raise the value > > of the system, though... eg, if there were a SCSI controller or > > something in the systems. > > Tis all subjective personal preference. I don't have an 11/04, and > don't particularly want one. Is that because it's an 04? No, it's > because of space, time, money, already owning other 11's, not being a > dedicated -11-only collector, etc. Given that the above systems > looked complete and in very good shape, I think the asking price of > $425 each wasn't totally out of line (albeit yes, a bit high to > *me*). Pricing is always subjective. :) I was thinking more of an average value, if they sold. And yes, maybe I'm a little low. I always seem to be "low" at estimating value when it comes to toggle-switch PDP-11s on ebay. Of course someone I ran into at VCF also claimed that $1200-$1500 was way too much to spend on an pdp-11/35, but I'm perfectly happy with my purchase. :) > More to the point, I don't think the auction is a fair indicator of > the worth of an 11/04, because he bundled 4 of them at a high (total) > price. Perhaps few people want to buy all 4 and spend $1700, but > perhaps there is someone out there that would jump at buying one at > 1/4th the price. I'd definately agree... I'm sure that the people who'd pay upwards of $400-$500 for an 11/04 wouldn't want to buy 4 for "4 times the money". And, realistically, the start bid shouldn't be as high as what you think the equipment will sell for, or you'll end up driving away potential bidders. Based on the BIN price of $2700, it looks like the seller expected them to be worth closer to $650-$700 each, which I'm certain is WAY too high for an 11/04, which has no peripherals, is of unknown condition, and very few I/O boards in it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 29 17:50:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:50:59 +0000 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST In-Reply-To: <000a01c832dd$00a936f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200711291648.57340.pat@computer-refuge.org> <000a01c832dd$00a936f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20071129235059.GB23879@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 05:10:05PM -0600, Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote... > >>Looks like noone else wanted to pay that much either. I don't know > >>where they came up with a price like $1700 for 4 11/04s ($425 ea?), It's more than _I_ would want to pay for a bare 11/04 in unknown condition. > To which Pat replied... > >An 11/04 is somewhat more desirable of a machine than the 11/03 is (it's > >UNIBUS instead of QBUS), but you still lack the MMU, and only have a > >calculator-keypad frontpanel instead of a full lights and toggles > >frontpane, and it's relatively slow. So, it's not generally all that > >desirable to people, compared to something like an 11/83, or even an > >11/10, or 11/34. It's a fine RT-11 box, but so is an 11/23 (which is much more common and about the same physical size). If you had some Unibus peripherals you wanted to play with, you could drop a couple in there, but ISTR there's a small number of empty slots after you install the CPU, memory, and a console. I'm not saying it's an terrible machine - I have one myself. There are just other machines which might be easier to find and can do similar (11/23) or identical (11/34) things with. > 11/04's seem a bit rare to me. And for "curb appeal" no different than an > 11/34. Agreed. > >I'd guess that if they were actually complete, and mostly working (but > >without any interesting I/O boards), $150-$250 ea wouldn't be too far > >out of line. Sure. > I/O boards could dramatically raise the value of the > >system, though... eg, if there were a SCSI controller or something in > >the systems. Not impossible, but very unlikely. I wouldn't think that someone would have ever spent that kind of money on a controller for an 11/04 in the past - perhaps a hobbyist might stuff one in there for fun, but for the era of the machine, an RX11 or RX211 or RL11 would be much more likely, or a cable to an RK11. > More to the point, I don't think the auction is a fair indicator of the > worth of an 11/04, because he bundled 4 of them at a high (total) price. > Perhaps few people want to buy all 4 and spend $1700, but perhaps there is > someone out there that would jump at buying one at 1/4th the price. Someone? I'm sure there are people out there who would find ~$400 an acceptable price for a bare 11/04, but, like Jay, I am not one of them. -ethan (the one I have used to be a bench-test machine, so ISTR it has 16K of MOS and never had any mass storage - our test software was shoved down the serial console into ODT - all standalone MACRO programs - no OS). -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 29-Nov-2007 at 23:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -28.3 F (-33.5 C) Windchill -43.2 F (-41.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.1 kts Grid 103 Barometer 683.0 mb (10515 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 29 17:57:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:57:34 +0000 Subject: Amiga languages (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071129235734.GC23879@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 11:11:07PM +0000, Andrew Burton wrote: > I'm relatively new to the Amiga scene (6 years experience - 5 on real hardware, 1 under emulation), but I have never heard about any of them being for the Amiga. I know you can program on the Amiga using the following languages: > > > Assembler > Amiga BASIC > AMOS BASIC > Blitz BASIC > Rexx > Arexx > C > Machine Code > > > I don't think I missed any. Perl? I also recall writing a few AmigaDOS scripts for complicated environment stuff for setting up the C compiler, and such. It's less capable than, say, bash or csh, but in the style of DOS .BAT files, you do have loops and control statements, not just invoking external binaries. Also, after AmigaDOS 3.0 came out, there was a graphical programming language intended for multimedia apps, called AmigaVision. You could display images, play sounds, direct a laserdisc player to display specific frames or clips, detect mouse clicks, etc. Even though it came for free with the A3000, it wasn't very popular, and there were a few apps you could download written in it. The most complex AmigaVision app I can recall off the top of my head was a walkthrough tour of Shakespeare's Globe theatre. I probably have a copy of it on an A3000 or A4000 drive at home. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 29-Nov-2007 at 23:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -27.9 F (-33.3 C) Windchill -43.0 F (-41.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.2 kts Grid 100 Barometer 683.0 mb (10515 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 29 18:23:14 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:23:14 -0800 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <997929.29109.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <474D613A.6090301@mdrconsult.com> <997929.29109.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Uhhh, like this? http://www.classiccmp.org/wiki Well, I at least added some structure to the front page. Maybe that will give people incentive to add things... Then again, maybe not. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 18:25:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:25:31 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071129152552.G50720@shell.lmi.net> References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20071129152552.G50720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2007 at 15:30, Fred Cisin wrote: > What is the model number for the EAM card interpreter? The most common was the 557. You too, with the aid of the plugboard can jumble colums, print them in the middle of the card and all sorts of other neat stuff--except for printing 80 columns in a single row across the top of the card--and enough punctuation to make sense of a deck of FORTRAN source. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 29 18:33:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:33:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com> References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20071129152552.G50720@shell.lmi.net> <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071129163021.F53939@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The most common was the 557. You too, with the aid of the plugboard > can jumble colums, print them in the middle of the card and all sorts > of other neat stuff--except for printing 80 columns in a single row > across the top of the card--and enough punctuation to make sense of a > deck of FORTRAN source. Yes, that was the one. I'm working at another campus for the last few years, I hope that the college hasn't thrown out my 557 "COBOL Interpreter" I was fortunate enough to have access for a while (George Washington University) to a special model of the 29 punch that would do interpreting. It was slow, but it did proper 80 column across the top. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 18:40:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:40:04 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071129152552.G50720@shell.lmi.net> References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20071129152552.G50720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474EEB64.2842.634F388F@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2007 at 15:30, Fred Cisin wrote: > For a while, I had a binder on one of my office bookshelves labelled > "COBAL", due only to having a temporary worker who couldn't spell COBOL. I thought it might be a dialect of 360/20 assembly language. Come to think of it, when COBOL was released for S/360 DOS (I don't know about the OS/360 version), indexed-sequential file access was left out. The compiler would accept the syntax, but wouldn't generate anything. IBM released a set of object modules that allowed the programmer to use the facility by employing "ENTER" statements. I think I still have the publication that describes the procedure somewhere. Maybe that was COBAL? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 18:44:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:44:21 -0800 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071129163021.F53939@shell.lmi.net> References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071129163021.F53939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <474EEC65.18280.63532444@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2007 at 16:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > I was fortunate enough to have access for a while (George Washington > University) to a special model of the 29 punch that would do interpreting. > It was slow, but it did proper 80 column across the top. I don't know if that feature was standard for all 029s, but I saw it on every one that I used. You could tell what someone was up to when you saw an 029 with a hopper full of cards sitting unattended going "rattle-rattle-rattle....rattle, ker-chunk" over and over again. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 29 18:49:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:49:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474EEC65.18280.63532444@cclist.sydex.com> References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com>, <20071129163021.F53939@shell.lmi.net> <474EEC65.18280.63532444@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20071129164743.F53939@shell.lmi.net> > > I was fortunate enough to have access for a while (George Washington > > University) to a special model of the 29 punch that would do interpreting. > > It was slow, but it did proper 80 column across the top. On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know if that feature was standard for all 029s, but I saw it > on every one that I used. You could tell what someone was up to when > you saw an 029 with a hopper full of cards sitting unattended going > "rattle-rattle-rattle....rattle, ker-chunk" over and over again. Of the MANY 29s at GWU, only one had the word "interpret" on it's name label, and the ability to interpret a deck of already punched cards. All of the others could only intrepret what it was punching. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 18:50:10 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:50:10 -0500 Subject: Vector Graphic restoration progress update Message-ID: <007101c832ea$f5f0e380$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am working to restore an old Vector Graphic machine. I think it is a VG 5 series machine but sort of an odd hybrid. It has a VG 1 case repainted and relabeled as a "No Name Computer" with all VG 5 components inside. Seriously, it is called NNC and that is not a joke. It is a very strange name. It contains a ZCB (Z80 CPU board), 64K RAM, Flashwriter II (video and parallel ASCII keyboard interface), and integrated FD/HD controller (aka VEDMCS). After working on this machine for weeks, I finally got it to boot CP/M 2.2 with a 56K TPA! YAHOO! I am very happy and thought I would share the good news with the folks on the VG and CCTALK mailing lists. If anyone needs or wants a VG 5 series CP/M boot disk to restore their machine, please send me an email and I will make you one. If you are interested in discussing Vector Graphic, feel free to join us on the VG mailing list. Thanks! Andrew Lynch PS, Here is all the info on the mailing list: http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=VECTOR-GRAPHIC To post (send a message to all subscribers), address your e-mail to vector-graphic at h-net.msu.edu. To unsubscribe, send the command "unsub vector-graphic", without the quotes, in the BODY of the message, to listserv at h-net.msu.edu. For other help, e-mail Dennis Boone . From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 29 18:56:02 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:56:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vector Graphic restoration progress update In-Reply-To: <007101c832ea$f5f0e380$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <007101c832ea$f5f0e380$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <20071129165452.B53939@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Andrew Lynch wrote: > I am working to restore an old Vector Graphic machine. I think it is a VG 5 > series machine but sort of an odd hybrid. It has a VG 1 case repainted and > relabeled as a "No Name Computer" with all VG 5 components inside. > Seriously, it is called NNC and that is not a joke. It is a very strange > name. I had a Vector Graphic (Sellam has it now), that was relabeled "Pentabs". "No Name Computer" is WAY cooler. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 18:57:57 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:57:57 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071129164743.F53939@shell.lmi.net> References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com> <20071129163021.F53939@shell.lmi.net> <474EEC65.18280.63532444@cclist.sydex.com> <20071129164743.F53939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Of the MANY 29s at GWU, only one had the word "interpret" on it's name > label, and the ability to interpret a deck of already punched cards. > All of the others could only intrepret what it was punching. Yes, I think that was actually a different IBM model than the 029, but it was essentially an 029. The proper model number escapes me right now. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 18:57:57 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:57:57 -0500 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <20071129164743.F53939@shell.lmi.net> References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com> <20071129163021.F53939@shell.lmi.net> <474EEC65.18280.63532444@cclist.sydex.com> <20071129164743.F53939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Of the MANY 29s at GWU, only one had the word "interpret" on it's name > label, and the ability to interpret a deck of already punched cards. > All of the others could only intrepret what it was punching. Yes, I think that was actually a different IBM model than the 029, but it was essentially an 029. The proper model number escapes me right now. -- Will From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Nov 29 19:00:21 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:00:21 -0800 Subject: Vector Graphic restoration progress update In-Reply-To: <007101c832ea$f5f0e380$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <007101c832ea$f5f0e380$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <474F60A5.5000400@msm.umr.edu> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > It has a VG 1 case repainted and > relabeled as a "No Name Computer" with all VG 5 components inside. > Seriously, it is called NNC and that is not a joke. It is a very strange > name. > There was a company called NNC located in Huntington Beach Ca in the late 70's or early 80's that made basic S-100 hardware. I'll ask a friend to get the names and history, but you may have an actual NNC box and not a vector graphics system. I don't recall VG's history but I think that a flood of their hardware appeared on the junk market and someone may have built up a box from parts using an NNC mainframe. The NNC company built chassis with a backplane and power supply initially and tried to do the entire system before collapsing. The manufacturer was actually a guy who built components from sheet metal, and found that building computer boxes was more profitable. I don't know if there was a connection to VG but that would not be impossible. Jim From lee at geekdot.com Thu Nov 29 19:39:47 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:39:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: Amiga languages Message-ID: <2397.84.68.40.52.1196386787.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > I know you can program on the Amiga using the following languages: > Assembler > Amiga BASIC > AMOS BASIC > Blitz BASIC > Rexx > Arexx > C > Machine Code > I don't think I missed any. Ada, Smalltalk, Forth, Fortran, Pascal, Lua, Lisp, BCPL, Prolog, Comal, C++, HeliOS, Intercal, J, Java, Visual Pascal, Brainfuck, Logo, Malbolge, Cobol, Perl, Pilot, Scheme, Python, Perl, SML, Y and many variations of same. And those are just the free ones. For more go look here .. http://aminet.net/search?f=2&path=dev/lang Lee. . From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 29 19:44:28 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:44:28 -0500 Subject: IBM mechnical devices Message-ID: <01C832C8.C2296580@MSE_D03> -------------Original Messages: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:30:51 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers... > > Here's a question - what > > 8-bitters (or defunct 16-bitters, Atari, Amiga, you > > know, the common stuff) had COBOL available? > > What was SNOBOL? What about COBAL? I think I > have COBAL for the TI PC. For a while, I had a binder on one of my office bookshelves labelled "COBAL", due only to having a temporary worker who couldn't spell COBOL. What is the model number for the EAM card interpreter? At the college, I had a plugboard from one of them specifically set up for putting the relevant fields of COBOL source files in handy locations on the card (the interpreter did 60 columns of text, so it did not line up with the columns on cards). That particular plugboard was clearly labelled "COBOL Interpreter". So, yes, there was a COBOL interpreter :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com -----------Reply: LOL! There were several different models - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IBM_products We did have one, but I don't recall which one (probably a 557 or 548); machines that printed card contents on the card were indeed called "interpreters." They were used mainly for utility bills, etc. which were often printed on punched cards to be returned with your payment for processing. We didn't do that sort of work very often, and when the cards had to be easily human-readable (such as your COBOL cards) they'd be punched on a printing keypunch (026) in the first place. BTW we also had a somewhat rare 047, which was a printing keypunch that could also read (and convert) paper tape. m From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 19:46:53 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:46:53 -0600 Subject: VCF 10.0 and a Stride 460 Restoration project In-Reply-To: <32185288.55761196187375576.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <32185288.55761196187375576.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <51ea77730711291746yf072b16q285a8c63a9029d3f@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2007 12:16 PM, David W. Erhart wrote: > Hello, > > I exhibited some of my Sage and Stride computers, manuals, datasheets, newsletters and software at the Vintage Computer Festival 10.0. It was an exciting and rewarding event and I'm looking forward to the next one. I took some pictures and video. I've uploaded the pictures, the video will follow soon. Hi David - I had never even heard of Sage machines before VCF this year, but I enjoyed the completeness of your display. Great pics, too! -j From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 29 19:52:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:52:31 +0000 Subject: Amiga languages In-Reply-To: <2397.84.68.40.52.1196386787.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <2397.84.68.40.52.1196386787.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <20071130015231.GA25036@usap.gov> On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 02:39:47AM +0100, Lee Davison wrote: > > I know you can program on the Amiga using the following languages: > > ...I don't think I missed any. > > Ada, Smalltalk, Forth, Fortran, Pascal, Lua, Lisp, BCPL, Prolog, > Comal, C++, HeliOS, Intercal, J, Java, Visual Pascal, Brainfuck, > Logo, Malbolge, Cobol, Perl, Pilot, Scheme, Python, Perl, SML, Y > and many variations of same. And those are just the free ones. "You said 'Perl' twice?!?" "I like Perl" ;-) Seriously though, I can't believe I forgot about BCPL, not that users wrote much in it. There's a JRE for AmigaDOS? It must have appeared after I stopped using an Amiga every day (around AmigaDOS 3.1 or so). I also can't believe I forgot about Lisp - I have an ancient, AmigaDOS 1.0 or 1.1-era Lisp disk somewhere. Also uncommon, but entirely supported. There's also Inform, for writing programs to run on the Infocom Z-machine. I've done a few programs other than adventure games in Inform, but not many. One was to predict the frequency of winning a particular deterministic form of solitaire (don't know the name of it, just the rules)... It involves holding the deck in your hand and turning over cards and discarding via certain rules - there are no choices to be made - the game is won or lost once the deck is shuffled - it just takes a couple of minutes for you to find out. I didn't have Perl on my own Amiga in 1998, so I wrote the solitaire predictor in Inform. > For more go look here .. > > http://aminet.net/search?f=2&path=dev/lang Nice. Thanks. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Nov-2007 at 01:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -28.3 F (-33.5 C) Windchill -44.3 F (-42.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.6 kts Grid 93 Barometer 683.2 mb (10508 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 29 20:09:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:09:51 -0800 Subject: Amiga languages In-Reply-To: <2397.84.68.40.52.1196386787.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <2397.84.68.40.52.1196386787.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <474F006F.1907.63A16AD9@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2007 at 2:39, Lee Davison wrote: >> Ada, Smalltalk, Forth, Fortran, Pascal, Lua, Lisp, BCPL, Prolog, > Comal, C++, HeliOS, Intercal, J, Java, Visual Pascal, Brainfuck, > Logo, Malbolge, Cobol, Perl, Pilot, Scheme, Python, Perl, SML, Y > and many variations of same. And those are just the free ones. HeliOS was just an operating system, not a language, no? And wasn't it what was used with the Transputer add-in? i.e., one couldn't run HeliOS on an ungarnished Amiga. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 29 20:51:17 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:51:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM mechnical devices In-Reply-To: <01C832C8.C2296580@MSE_D03> References: <01C832C8.C2296580@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20071129184544.W60333@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, M H Stein wrote: > LOL! > There were several different models - see: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IBM_products > They were used mainly for utility bills, etc. which were often printed on > punched cards to be returned with your payment for processing. We > didn't do that sort of work very often, and when the cards had to be easily > human-readable (such as your COBOL cards) they'd be punched on a > printing keypunch (026) in the first place. Unfortunately, the card output punches of most of the computers, and the stand-alone duplicator didn't print when it punched. > BTW we also had a somewhat rare 047, which was a printing keypunch > that could also read (and convert) paper tape. My favorite was a model 026 at GSFC (Goddard Space Flight Center) that was cabled to a Gerber Data Digitizer. Think of a 3 foot square light table, with a horizontal and vertical rule controlled by turn knobs ("Etch-a-sketch") and a foot pedal that would send a pair of 3 digit numbers for X and Y coordinates to the punch. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 21:08:25 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:08:25 -0500 Subject: Vector Graphic restoration progress update Message-ID: <001a01c832fe$464b96a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > It has a VG 1 case repainted and > relabeled as a "No Name Computer" with all VG 5 components inside. > Seriously, it is called NNC and that is not a joke. It is a very strange > name. > There was a company called NNC located in Huntington Beach Ca in the late 70's or early 80's that made basic S-100 hardware. I'll ask a friend to get the names and history, but you may have an actual NNC box and not a vector graphics system. I don't recall VG's history but I think that a flood of their hardware appeared on the junk market and someone may have built up a box from parts using an NNC mainframe. The NNC company built chassis with a backplane and power supply initially and tried to do the entire system before collapsing. The manufacturer was actually a guy who built components from sheet metal, and found that building computer boxes was more profitable. I don't know if there was a connection to VG but that would not be impossible. Jim -----REPLY----- Hi Jim, Wow, that is interesting. I thought with a name like NNC it had to be a joke. Apparently someone had a sense of humor "back in the day"! If you look at this set of photos of a Vector 1+ on Dave Dunfield's page: http://classiccmp.org/dunfield/s100/index.htm#v1p The case is almost exactly like the Vector 1 case with very minor exceptions and a beige paint job. It could be that NNC resold an S-100 box full of VG parts. I have heard that VG did sell their boards as a set for VARs. Maybe it is a custom job too, I don't know. It could go either way but I think of the machine as a Vector Graphic. Technically you are correct and I agree with you. It is not a real VG machine like an MZ but it has definite VG heritage. Thanks for finding out any information you can on NNC. I am certainly interested in whatever history there is. Here is some information on NNC from earlier CCTALK posts. Whatever they have is definitely not related to my VG machine. http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-May/171711.html I suspect NNC made S-100 chassis and motherboard. Then people populated them with whatever they wanted. Of course, I don't know. It is just a hunch. Maybe they were the OEM for the VG 1 cases? Thanks! Andrew Lynch From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Nov 29 22:19:59 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:19:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interpreting Card Punch (was Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com> <20071129163021.F53939@shell.lmi.net> <474EEC65.18280.63532444@cclist.sydex.com> <20071129164743.F53939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, William Donzelli wrote: >> Of the MANY 29s at GWU, only one had the word "interpret" on it's name >> label, and the ability to interpret a deck of already punched cards. >> All of the others could only intrepret what it was punching. > > Yes, I think that was actually a different IBM model than the 029, but > it was essentially an 029. > > The proper model number escapes me right now. I've seen various anecdotal references to an interpret option for the 029, but nothing specific. There WAS an optional interpret feature for the 129, as shown in my maintenance manuals. My 129, unfortunately, does not have it installed. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 22:25:34 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:25:34 -0500 Subject: Interpreting Card Punch (was Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: References: <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <474EE7FB.27201.6341E716@cclist.sydex.com> <20071129163021.F53939@shell.lmi.net> <474EEC65.18280.63532444@cclist.sydex.com> <20071129164743.F53939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I've seen various anecdotal references to an interpret option for the > 029, but nothing specific. I do not think it was actually an option - it was a new IBM type number, like 0mumblefoo. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 29 23:19:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:19:06 -0700 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:53:44 -0500. <200711291853.44349.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200711291853.44349.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > By guessing, it looks like one CPU board, the front-panel controller, > two (memory?) boards, some other I/O board (probably console port), and > a BC11 unibus cable going out the chassis. There was only one photo of one of the 11/04s showing the boards. So who knows whats in the other 3 systems. I've seen items re-listed on dovebid at drastically reduced prices when the initial offering resulted in no bids, as this lot did. So maybe next time its listed, it will be a bargain. Remember that you *can* contact the seller via dovebid, but they don't always reply. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 29 23:22:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:22:05 -0700 Subject: Vector Graphic restoration progress update In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:08:25 -0500. <001a01c832fe$464b96a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: In article <001a01c832fe$464b96a0$a903a8c0 at andrewdesktop>, "Andrew Lynch" writes: > Wow, that is interesting. I thought with a name like NNC it had to be a > joke. Apparently someone had a sense of humor "back in the day"! More than one company has a sense of humor like this. There is an LCD based VT-100 clone terminal by Random Corporation called the Colleague. So the full model name is the "Random Colleague". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 29 23:32:24 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:32:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vector Graphic restoration progress update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071129213058.G66227@shell.lmi.net> > More than one company has a sense of humor like this. There is an LCD Kentucky Fried Computers, Thinker Toys, Intergactic Digital Research all changed their names and then went on to greatness From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 30 00:36:52 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:36:52 -0000 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com><200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com><002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> OTOH At the company I worked for at the time, the beige "wedge >>shaped" PSUs were dropping like flies - we found them to be >>HORRENDOUSLY unreliable.... > pics? I'm not sure I recall a wedge-shaped PSU. OK, look here: http://jope.fi/cbm/cbm/c64psu.jpg. The PSU I'm referring to is the leftmost one of the three in that picture; I've always called them "wedge shaped", but I suppose "cheese block" would be closer to the mark, LOL. >>....The paddle inputs (analogue in) and triggers were handled by >>POKEY. > Was the trigger IO, or just input? Just input AFAIR. Thinking about it, I don't think the paddle inputs weren't "real" analogue inputs. Rather they timed how long a capacitor took to charge through the pot inside the paddle controller. > If Atari only had 4 bits per port, You could still do 8 nybbles (4 >bytes) of data and a SELect, or 2 bytes and SEL and CLK lines with both >ports across the two machines.... Quite, plenty of scope there too. However, by the time I moved onto an 800XL (which only had 2 joystick ports) Atari had given us the PBI expansion bus which made things vastly easier....though it didn't stop me soldering another 6520 on top of the already existing one and using one port for a centronics interface and the other to drive a UART.... :-) >....What about TI or Apple? My knowledge of those is sketchy at best - I have a couple of TI's and still have at least one Apple ][ but haven't delved into the TI yet, nor have I turned my Apple on for some 10 years! TTFN - Pete. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 30 00:58:40 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:58:40 -0600 Subject: Amiga 1000 In-Reply-To: <200711281734.19616.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <112385.41295.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <20071126105741.GA14502@usap.gov> <474D01C7.6060203@oldskool.org> <200711281734.19616.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474FB4A0.6090802@oldskool.org> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > We went round and round with them on the phone once. I wanted to know what > the heck the software was trying to do that it wasn't loading properly. They > insisted that the drive had to be perfectly aligned, and I'd just done > that... Is that a subtle/sarcastic dig at their copy protection methods, or just "they would connect me to clueless people on the other end of the line"? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 30 00:59:48 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:59:48 -0600 Subject: Amiga emulation for Mac OS X? In-Reply-To: <20071129105901.GA17069@usap.gov> References: <20071129105901.GA17069@usap.gov> Message-ID: <474FB4E4.9030401@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have apps, I have ROMs, etc. I just need a good Intel-Mac-based Amiga engine. Tried this yet? http://sourceforge.net/projects/maxuae -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Nov 28 02:56:57 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:56:57 -0000 Subject: Amiga TV Out Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E517@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Now that's interesting. So Amiga 2000 Models were availalable in PAL composite out for this side of the water. (I'm in the UK) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: 28 November 2007 06:42 To: General at icky.berkhirt.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Amiga TV Out Rod Smallwood wrote: > I'm sure that I heard that some Commodore systems could do TV out Composite only, but yes. You could get better results with a "genlock" device; a few of them supported Y/C ("s-video"). I produced a DVD last year with footage of running Amiga programs and I had to resort to scan-converting the RGB port itself to get acceptable quality. My signal path was RGB port->vga adapter->R/G/B/H/V breakout cable->scan converter->Y/Cr/Cb output->Y/Cr/Cb video capture card. That sounds heinous, but the scan converter and the video capture card were very high-end broadcast-quality units (scan converter was RGB Spectrum Videolink 1650x; capture card was Black Magic Designs Decklink SP) and there were really only two generational losses (RGB->scan converter and scan converter->capture card). The quality from this process was an order of magnitude better than the A500 and A4000's composite video output port. > and were in fact used to produce CGI stuff for 'Babylon Five" That was a NewTek Video Toaster, not a stock Amiga :-) The Video Toaster hardware had it's own set of video output ports, IIRC, although I could be wrong as I've never used one. > Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? All models except the A4000 (and maybe the A3000, but I'm not sure) were made in NTSC or PAL specific versions, with a different color generator and crystal to match. The A4000 had a jumper on the motherboard that selected either NTSC or PAL timings. You could get any model to "emulate" the other by using free utilities like Degrader, but these only affected the RGB video output timing. I used Degrader extensively on my NTSC A1200 to get European PAL games to run, since they required a 50Hz display, but that didn't affect the composite video output port, which was still NTSC (although it output some quasi-NTSC-50-gibberish when running in "pal" mode). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Nov 28 20:35:11 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:35:11 -0000 Subject: Amiga TV Out Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E520@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Broadcast PAL as defined by the IBA (Independent Broadcasing Authority) 'Specification of Television Standards for 625-line System I Transmissions' (September 1972) The IBA were the governing body for TV in the UK at the time. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: 28 November 2007 18:29 To: General at icky.berkhirt.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Amiga TV Out Rod Smallwood wrote: > My requirement is much less demanding. > I only need to show test cards,static pictures and the like. > Whats most important is that the output is as close to the full PAL > standard as possible. > So to widen the scope the question becomes: > 'Where can I get an old system that will do broadcast standard PAL TV > out.' I'm not sure that question can be answered, since I have never ever seen a system that does "broadcast" PAL output. You have to define what you mean by "broadcast": - If you mean "broadcast as circa 1990 and before", then composite video qualifies, but I have never seen a system with a composite output without an unacceptable level of noise. - If you mean "broadcast as circa 1991 and later", you'd need a system with a bare minimum of Y/C ("s-video") output and I don't know of any, unless you stick a later-model genlock onto an Amiga. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Nov 29 01:07:49 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:07:49 -0800 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474E6545.3000002@msu.edu> Yep. If there /is/ anything on either of those that I'm missing, let me know, but I swear I've looked. So here's a semi-stupid question; having just acquired a Data I/O EEPROM programmer which is also fairly adept at dumping EEPROMs, is it possible to use the Data I/O to dump the VT100 rom in question? That is, if I choose a PROM or EEPROM type that's compatible with the type of ROM in use on the VT100 board, is it likely that I'll be able to read it on the programmer like a standard PROM/EEPROM? I'm kinda new at this particular corner of the hardware field so I have no idea... can someone set me straight? Thanks, Josh Richard wrote: > In article <4747DFF9.5060708 at msu.edu>, > Josh Dersch writes: > > >> Anyone out there have a dump of the VT100 character ROM? (This is the >> ROM located at E4 on the VT100 PCB, labeled as 23-018E2-00) >> > > Did you look in the usual places? > > > > From jeffj at panix.com Thu Nov 29 03:17:40 2007 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:17:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: free things for cctech readers, pick up preferred In-Reply-To: <200711290739.lAT7dZWM081985@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711290739.lAT7dZWM081985@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'm unsure how many readers are local to Elizabeth (central) NJ but I'm being forced to "downsize" my holdings so I'm offering things for free if picked up: - hundreds of new and slightly used floppy disks, both 3.5" and 5.25" - floppy drives: 3.5" and 5.25" - salvaged PC power supplies: about 9 PC-AT and 2: PC-ATX - EISA motherboards and cards (SCSI, network) - token ring cards, hub - crates of CD plastic "jewel cases" If you /absolutely positively/ require something and cannot pick it up, we'll see about shipping. -- Jeff Jonas jeffj-at-panix-dot-com From jwilder at dremedical.com Thu Nov 29 15:45:13 2007 From: jwilder at dremedical.com (Jim Wilder) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:45:13 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: tips for fabricating with plexiglass? Message-ID: <8EC30FB94DDAC847A18856A8D01F2EDC0146F3F3@kci-1024.DREMedical.local> Regular drill bits will work fine as long as you go slow and easy - especially when you are about to "break" through the other side. Dull bits work better. The bit the salesman was trying to get you to buy was actually a bit designed to scrape the plastic instead of cutting it. The angles are different on the bits. Also, when using screws to join your pieces together be sure to drill your holes slightly larger than your screws. This allows for some movement of the plastic and prevents breakage at the stress point. From cctech at daffy.vax-11.org Thu Nov 29 18:28:04 2007 From: cctech at daffy.vax-11.org (cctech at daffy.vax-11.org) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:28:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> References: <1196317448.474e5b0861f02@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: 1) There is a minimum load required for the power supplies to regulate. 2) Check the backplane VERY carefully for bent pins. I spent weeks debugging mine before finding the bent pin... Clint On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, J Blaser wrote: > I've finally acquired enough of the missing boards to try for a console > prompt. But I want to do this carefully. I don't want to fry any of these > modules if my power supplies are not on spec. > > I'm still waiting for a power key that's in transit (graciously copied by > another classiccmp'er), but I figured I could just set the power controller to > local and crank it up. > > So, after cleaning and reforming the removable capacitors[1], I figured > that I wanted to apply power to the system with all the loads removed, and > confirm proper voltages on the outputs. > > I left the backplane completely empty of boards, and I disconnected the > power cable to the TU58 controller, just to be safe. I get a good AC > indication on the controller when I plug into the main AC supply circuit. > Switching the breaker on and the control switch from OFF to LOCAL gives > good air from the (loud!) blower, but... > > What I see on the power controller indicators is the '+2.5 FAIL' and 'REG > FAIL' LEDs both light up, then several seconds elapse and the 'OVER > VOLTAGE' LED will flick on and the REG FAIL flicks off for about 1/2 > second, then the whole sequence repeats. Each cycle takes about 8 > seconds. A couple of photos of this can be found at: > > http://www.rogerwilco.org/VAX11-750/psfault > > I admit that I've never dealt with such a complex power system before, > and I've just spent the last hour or so reading through the 'VAX 11/750 > H7104 Power System Technical Description' document that I found on > vt100.net. Trying to get my brain around what's going on, I came across > the fault isolation section and it seems that what I'm seeing on the Power > Controller LEDs maybe indicates a "Fault in the CPU backplane". > > Of course, there is no CPU installed yet. Could this indication be normal > when no boards are installed? > > I'm hesitant to install any of my precious boards until I'm convinced that > the power supplies are good, but maybe I have to install one (or more) > boards to actually close the loop on something. > > Further reading tells me that there is a +2.5V-at-the-backplane monitoring > function in the +2.5V power supply. I haven't yet looked at this particular > issue up close, but maybe the monitor circuit is not complete without the > proper board in the backplane. Is this a sensible explanation? I just want > to be sure that putting one or more boards into the backplane is a safe > next step. > > Thanks! > > - Jared > > [1] System hasn't been powered since 1994. I went through the motions, > but I don't think the caps needed any help; the readings during the > reforming process seemed to show them in good shape from the start. > From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 30 02:12:13 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:12:13 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com><200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com><002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <474FC5DD.4070504@jbrain.com> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >> OTOH At the company I worked for at the time, the beige "wedge > >>shaped" PSUs were dropping like flies - we found them to be > >>HORRENDOUSLY unreliable.... > > > pics? I'm not sure I recall a wedge-shaped PSU. > > OK, look here: http://jope.fi/cbm/cbm/c64psu.jpg. > > The PSU I'm referring to is the leftmost one of the three in that > picture; I've always called them "wedge shaped", but I suppose "cheese > block" would be closer to the mark, LOL. Wow, never seen anything like that. The ones on the right and middle are all I know as PSUs. Ya learn something new every day. > > Thinking about it, I don't think the paddle inputs weren't "real" > analogue inputs. Rather they timed how long a capacitor took to charge > through the pot inside the paddle controller. Same for the SID. (And, I suspect the VIC-I paddle inputs on the VIC-20). Years later, the C64 Mouse used the paddles inputs to represent X and Y digital coordinates via a very ingenious method, IMHO. The SID ADC works in 512 cycle periods, clamping the internal cap to ground for 256 cycles, and then unclamping, watching how many cycles it takes to charge the cap. The faster the charge, the lower the number. The mouse ASIC would start up feeding +5v to the paddle line through some small resistance, watch for the line to drop to GND, and then start timing, turning off the 5V. At count 256, if would then start counting to a certain position, and then bring the line to 5v. The position was time period 256+desired value, as I recall. The value was ((6 bits of counter mod 64) * 2). On reception, you stripped bit 0 and bit 7, and you had the counter. A few years ago, based on this reverse engineering some CBM folks had done a few years back to create a mouse interface for the 64, I implemented some AVR code to do it all in the AVR, and support the full range of ADC values. Commodore's solution had a fixed 1MHz crystal, so bit 0 jittered, as the timing was just a bit off (PAL units run a bit below 1MHz, while US ones run a bit over.). The AVR code switches into internal oscillator mode and then trims the oscillator trim register in real time to sync with the 512 cycle clamp event. Jim From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Nov 30 02:52:16 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:52:16 +0100 Subject: Mechanical calculators (was: Re: *updating* 8088's) Message-ID: <20071130085216.39840@gmx.net> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Friday 23 November 2007 22:23, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > There are many kinds of mechanical memory. In particular, I recall > > an early TTY device that used a large rotating drum with cams > > embedded in the surface. One could flip a cam one way or the other > > and then read them out. I'm trying to remember what sort of machine > > this was used on and its application, but my memory sadly fails me. > > This stirs a vague recollection of an old mechanical adding machine I > once had, the kind that had a big rectangular array of buttons instead > of just a "10-key" set of numbers. I have *no* idea how it stored a > number in there, though. Hmm, like, say, an old cash register? This design is called "Volltastaturmaschine" in German (would translate to "complete keyboard machine"). They have a latching mechanism that holds in one button per column of keys (0-9, representing one digit of a number). When a calculation is initiated, the protruding shaft of the latched key acts as a stop for a toothed rack or similar device which is used to advance the wheels of the accumulator register by as many teeth as the corresponding digit says. There are also designs which involve an arrangement of levers positioning an intermediate gear along the axis of a stepped drum, for example the Badenia VA-17/VARE-17. The big advantage is that zeros need not be entered (to enter 100.00, you just press the "1" button in the fifth column from the right) and that operators could learn to "touch-type" on these keyboards, effectively entering all digits of a number in parallel and greatly reducing cycle times. Also, correction of mistypes is very fast and easy because you just have to latch the correct key in the respective column. I have a Diehl EVM series machine of that type, unfortunately the mechanism is about completely gummed up from old grease. Most mechanical and electromechanical ten-key adders contain a "pin carriage", which essentially is such a keyboard in miniature. A set of push rods connected to the ten keys is suspended above this construction; upon entry of a digit, the corresponding pin (sticking out through the top of the carriage after a clear) is pushed through (now sticking out at the bottom) and the carriage is advanced one position by an escapement mechanism. > Going back even earlier, I had the occasional chance to play with some > mechanical calculators. These were about the size of an old typewriter, > and there were a couple of different sets of readouts that consisted of > digits that showed through small windows on the front of the machine. > It had a "carriage" of sorts that would shift back and forth at times, > though my fuzzy recollection isn't clear on when it did that. And when > you told it to multiply, it'd really take off! :-) Ah...I suppose these were Odhner / Facit electromechanical pinwheel calculators, or at least a similar construction. I got one of those not very long ago and I'm very fond of it! A wealth of information about them is to be found on James Redin's Facit Page, http://www.xnumber.com/xnumber/cmisc_facit_page.htm The input register on those is a bank (or "drum") of pinwheel mechanisms which are actuated by the input keys - gears with an adjustable number of teeth, so to say. The "pins" are extended or retracted by rotating two parts of the gear against each other. For the calculation cycle, the adjustment is locked and the whole drum turns once, advancing the adjacent intermediate wheels (and thus the accumulator wheels) by the number of pins set. Machines with keyboard entry had to use a "split pinwheel" design in order to reduce the key travel needed, involving four pins and a sector with five more. 1 - 4 steps UP from the zero position extended 1 - 4 pins; 1 - 5 steps DOWN extended the sector AND 0 - 4 pins. Mechanical Bi-Quinary. Once a digit is set, the drum is advanced one step to the left and the next unset wheel is positioned in front of the setting mechanism. So long, -- Arno Kletzander www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Nov 30 02:59:42 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:59:42 -0000 Subject: New thread - Unwanted / Available parts Message-ID: <002d01c8332f$590d6a30$911ca8c0@mss.local> I'd recently come across a few Ic's that I have spare and rather than bin them would prefer to pass them on. Next idea was what about a central point for members/people to look and see who has what. So I came up with this -> www.soemtron.org/partsavailable/index.html <- its an idea, would it be usefull ?, or not. There are possibly better ways. Comments please, I'd be happy to run it, but am also prepared to be shot down in flames if it already exists or is not wanted. The emails on those pages are live. Many thanks, Mike From cc at corti-net.de Fri Nov 30 03:33:47 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:33:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <474D0DA0.20108@oldskool.org> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903E508@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <474D0DA0.20108@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? > > All models except the A4000 (and maybe the A3000, but I'm not sure) were made > in NTSC or PAL specific versions, with a different color generator and > crystal to match. The A4000 had a jumper on the motherboard that selected > either NTSC or PAL timings. ..."There ain't such thing as NTSC or PAL timings"... only video timings and optionally a color carrier of some kind. The only model that could output a NTSC or PAL signal was the Amiga 1000. Early European models did NTSC, newer ones (like mine) did PAL. With the appearance of the 500/2000 in spring 1987 Commodore removed the color generator from the machines so they only output a monochrome BAS (VBS) instead of an FBAS (CVBS) signal. No color, no NTSC nor PAL, i.e. signals without color carrier are neither NTSC nor PAL. Christian From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Nov 30 04:02:47 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:02:47 +0100 Subject: Transportation .uk -> .de Message-ID: <20071130100247.182350@gmx.net> Hello, a few interesting items in the U.K. have recently popped up here - and the VCFe (which usually attracts some visitors from North of the Channel) is getting closer, so I figured I might try organizing a transport once again. I'm still in the process of contacting the current owners as I wanted to inform myself beforehand whether I can arrange transportation. Items may be coming from: -Glasgow -East London -Dorset (this one is fairly critical, would have to be collected before Christmas) and would have to be transported to southern Germany (Nuremberg area) for some compensation (meal, fuel money, etc). Offers and suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance, yours sincerely, Arno Kletzander -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 30 04:46:41 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:46:41 -0500 Subject: IBM mechnical devices Message-ID: <01C83314.63CB75E0@mandr71> ------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:51:17 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: IBM mechnical devices To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20071129184544.W60333 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, M H Stein wrote: > LOL! > There were several different models - see: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IBM_products > They were used mainly for utility bills, etc. which were often printed on > punched cards to be returned with your payment for processing. We > didn't do that sort of work very often, and when the cards had to be easily > human-readable (such as your COBOL cards) they'd be punched on a > printing keypunch (026) in the first place. Unfortunately, the card output punches of most of the computers, and the stand-alone duplicator didn't print when it punched. ------------Reply: Afraid I don't get your point; after all, that was the purpose of interpreters like the 557, to print the data that the computer or EAM had punched (and not printed). The 500 series output & reproducing punches couldn't punch *and* print because AFAIR the print mechanism essentially replaced the punch mechanism (except for the 519 which had a small numeric printer added, mainly for serial-numbering the cards). The keypunch equivalents could, but were much too slow for serious output operations. Not only were they slower to begin with, but they punched 80 columns lengthwise while pretty well all the electro-mechanical EAMs worked on the principle of a 12-phase synchronized cycle across the card, corresponding to the 12 zones of the cards. Your COBOL source cards on the other hand would have been punched on a keypunch and could have been printed as they were punched, no? mike From fryers at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 05:16:25 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:16:25 +0000 Subject: SG Indy Available, Cheltenham UK Message-ID: All, As I try and rationalise some of my collection, I have a SGI that I can see that I will never really have a use for and would like to give to a good home. I have the keyboard, screen and mouse to go with it. The machine is complete and worked last time I powered it up - about 12 months ago or there abouts. It is currently running some version of Irix. I don't know how much memory or the size of the HDD, but I seem to remember the HDD was somewhere between 200MB and 1GB - so not exactly huge. >From the part numbers, it has an old 8 bit frame buffer and the CPU is, "R4600PC -100mhz Primary Cache only". Ideally, I would like it to be collected from Cheltenham UK. However I work in Witney and I am up in the Milton Keynes area on weekends and can deliver to these areas, or on my way to / from Cheltenham. Bristol, Swindon and London are also deliverable when I am next in those areas. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From peksado at Cardiff.ac.uk Fri Nov 30 05:29:02 2007 From: peksado at Cardiff.ac.uk (Doug Peksa) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:29:02 +0000 Subject: Old laptop hard drive "goo" In-Reply-To: <200711292354.lATNsixm093034@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711292354.lATNsixm093034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <474FF3FE020000C900033168@zgrw01.cf.ac.uk> --- Michael Lee wrote: > I just received an old-ish (1990) Toshiba T1000LE > laptop and it wouldn't > boot, so I took a look at the hard drive and there > seems to be some type > of goo oozing out of it. It's a Conner hard drive, > nothing too abnormal. > > I didn't think a hard drive contained anything that > could ooze out. Any > idea what it could be and does that mean the drive > is pretty much > toast? Let the magic goo out? ------------- I also have this problem with a Mac Portable also from about 1990. Can't offhand remember the drive model but it's the gasket. I mop it up from time to time. It's still working. Doug From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Fri Nov 30 06:31:56 2007 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:31:56 +0000 Subject: Amiga languages (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: <20071129235734.GC23879@usap.gov> References: <918079.10479.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <246161.76467.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20071129235734.GC23879@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20071130123156.GA4709@discordance.org.uk> On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 11:57:34PM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 11:11:07PM +0000, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I'm relatively new to the Amiga scene (6 years experience - 5 on real hardware, 1 under emulation), but I have never heard about any of them being for the Amiga. I know you can program on the Amiga using the following languages: > > > > > > Assembler > > Amiga BASIC > > AMOS BASIC > > Blitz BASIC > > Rexx > > Arexx > > C > > Machine Code > > > > > > I don't think I missed any. > > Perl? > Perl for definite, I used it on the Amiga to do analysis on text for my dads PHD back in 1991. As far as I know there was no separate Rexx implementation for the Amiga, just ARexx (wasn't much call for a separate version after that :)) There was also E EzASM (might not really classify as a full language, it was just a front-end to the assembler) XLisp Scheme Stony Brook Prolog GFA Basic Draco Pascal (Metacomco had an ISO Pascal, and fairly sure there was a more useful one later but can't remember its name) Modula-2 And a ton of others, lots available via the Fish disks and AMINET. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 30 07:12:35 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:12:35 -0600 Subject: "The Purchasing Agent" In-Reply-To: <20071129213058.G66227@shell.lmi.net> References: <20071129213058.G66227@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071130071103.04d05ce0@mail.threedee.com> At 11:32 PM 11/29/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >Kentucky Fried Computers, >Thinker Toys, >Intergactic Digital Research >all changed their names and then went on to greatness The other day a new client mentioned he once worked in the Valley at an S-100 shop called "The Purchasing Agent." I googled and found a reference to them advertising in Byte circa '82, but I haven't went to the basement to fetch an issue. Anyone have an anecdote about that company? - John From lee at geekdot.com Fri Nov 30 07:47:12 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:47:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Amiga languages Message-ID: <4910.84.68.40.52.1196430432.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > HeliOS was just an operating system, not a language, no? Not according to the readme .. "HeliOS is an innovative, fast and efficient Amiga programming language which has been developed over many years. It is fully compatible with ALL Amigas running any operating system newer than AmigaDOS 1.1, including AGA and 68060 based machines." .. though I've not used it. Lee. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 30 08:18:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:18:54 -0500 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, Ends Thursday 11/29/07 10:36 AM PST In-Reply-To: <200711291853.44349.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200711291648.57340.pat@computer-refuge.org> <000a01c832dd$00a936f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200711291853.44349.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2007, at 6:53 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> 11/04's seem a bit rare to me. And for "curb appeal" no different >> than an 11/34. > > I'm fairly certain that the only difference between the two is the CPU > boardset, and the label. IIRC, they both use the same CPU backplane, > but I'm not 100% sure on that. This is correct...same backplane, front panel controller, etc etc. Only the CPU boards are different. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 30 08:21:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:21:07 -0500 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image In-Reply-To: <474FD280.8080804@msu.edu> References: <474E6545.3000002@msu.edu> <38F6FB92-D8B4-4554-A12B-D881829D7549@neurotica.com> <474FD280.8080804@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2007, at 4:06 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> Yep. If there /is/ anything on either of those that I'm missing, >>> let me know, but I swear I've looked. >>> So here's a semi-stupid question; having just acquired a Data I/O >>> EEPROM programmer which is also fairly adept at dumping EEPROMs, >>> is it possible to use the Data I/O to dump the VT100 rom in >>> question? That is, if I choose a PROM or EEPROM type that's >>> compatible with the type of ROM in use on the VT100 board, is it >>> likely that I'll be able to read it on the programmer like a >>> standard PROM/EEPROM? I'm kinda new at this particular corner of >>> the hardware field so I have no idea... can someone set me straight? >> >> Absolutely...that's a pretty common use of such device programmers. >> >> > Groovy. So the ROM in question is a Signetics (I believe) 8228; > how do I go about determining what EEPROM is equivalent? Is there > a decent reference guide for this sort of thing? There isn't necessarily an EPROM equivalent for every PROM, and in fact I don't believe there is one for the 8228...if your programmer supports the 8228 PROM, though, it should be able to read it without difficulty. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ats at offog.org Fri Nov 30 08:41:28 2007 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:41:28 +0000 Subject: Amiga languages In-Reply-To: <4910.84.68.40.52.1196430432.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> (Lee Davison's message of "Fri\, 30 Nov 2007 14\:47\:12 +0100 \(CET\)") References: <4910.84.68.40.52.1196430432.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: "Lee Davison" writes: >> HeliOS was just an operating system, not a language, no? > Not according to the readme .. They're two different things -- there's a Transputer OS called HeliOS, and there was also a compiled Forth-like language for the Amiga designed by Roger Wharmby. I don't recall HeliOS-the-language ever really taking off, but the "HeliOS Defender" demo game made it onto a few coverdisks. I suppose you could claim that having a Transputer board running HeliOS-the-OS would also let you program the Amiga in occam, although it'd only be acting as an IO server. But it's not like the Amiga's short of programming languages; a quick look at the Fish disks or Aminet will find lots of examples. -- Adam Sampson From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 08:55:24 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:55:24 -0800 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image In-Reply-To: <474FD280.8080804@msu.edu> References: <474E6545.3000002@msu.edu> <38F6FB92-D8B4-4554-A12B-D881829D7549@neurotica.com> <474FD280.8080804@msu.edu> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90711300655o11eebcd1p2a1fde8144f7eff@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2007 1:06 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Groovy. So the ROM in question is a Signetics (I believe) 8228; how do > I go about determining what EEPROM is equivalent? Is there a decent > reference guide for this sort of thing? > The 8228 is a 1024x4 ROM. There is a standard character generator ROM N82281-CB162 which has a pattern listed in a Signetics data book. It's only 64 characters, upper case only in the standard ROM. -Glen From trag at io.com Fri Nov 30 09:11:46 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:11:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Old laptop hard drive "goo" In-Reply-To: <200711300717.lAU7GwwY003198@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711300717.lAU7GwwY003198@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <18382.209.163.133.242.1196435506.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:36:23 -0500 > From: M H Stein > --- Michael Lee wrote: > >> so I took a look at the hard drive and there >> seems to be some type >> of goo oozing out of it. It's a Conner hard drive, >> nothing too abnormal. > ------------- > I've had that problem with a Conner drive in an Ogivar laptop; it was > the gasket between the housing and cover decomposing the same > way as drive rollers etc. My drive was still working though and, after > removing the goo and wrapping a layer of tape around the perimeter, > still is (at least so far). I have had the same experience. I collect Conner 60 MB and 80 MB drives (CP2064, CP2084, CP2088)for my old Outbound Model 125 Laptops (ca. 1990). A few of them have goo issues and on those drives the gasket between the metal case halves is missing. Talk about a dust/impurities hazard. I was thinking about putting a silicon seal around there. For some reason I never though of the simple solution of tape. I think I've spent too long with aquariums. Every problem can be solved wtih silicon sealant. Jeff Walther From marvin at west.net Fri Nov 30 09:28:20 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:28:20 -0800 Subject: NNC Computers, was Re: Vector Graphic restoration progress update Message-ID: <47502C14.D437D83D@west.net> I've known about NNC for quite a while and have at least one of them around here along with documentaion. It is a box with two vertical 8" drives and about the width of a regular S-100 box. I just took a look in the 1983 DATAPRO Small Computers notebook, and didn't see anything about them. That makes me think they had disappeard by then. BTW, I've found the DATAPRO marketing information to be a *great* souce of information on a lot of the companies. I think Sellam might have a more complete set of them. > From: jim s > > It has a VG 1 case repainted and > > relabeled as a "No Name Computer" with all VG 5 components inside. > > Seriously, it is called NNC and that is not a joke. It is a very strange > > name. > > > There was a company called NNC located in Huntington Beach Ca in the > late 70's or early 80's that made basic S-100 hardware. I'll ask a > friend to get the names and history, but you may have an actual NNC box > and not a vector graphics system. > > I don't recall VG's history but I think that a flood of their hardware > appeared on the junk market and someone may have built up a box from > parts using an NNC mainframe. > > The NNC company built chassis with a backplane and power supply > initially and tried to do the entire system before collapsing. The > manufacturer was actually a guy who built components from sheet metal, > and found that building computer boxes was more profitable. I don't > know if there was a connection to VG but that would not be impossible. > > Jim > From technobug at comcast.net Fri Nov 30 09:40:24 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:40:24 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: <200711292354.lATNsixZ093034@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711292354.lATNsixZ093034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:02:05 -0700, J Blaser wrote: > In fact, a > couple of the PS PCBs went through the dishwasher to clean up the > remains to 'rodent residue'. On the whole, it seems that I got them > back together properly! ;) If there are any potentiometers on the boards that you washed, you might want to ensure that the wipers are making contact. Generally, pots are installed after a board wash unless they are sealed. An open wiper will cause many of the symptoms you are describing. An easy method is to measure the resistance across the pot and then the resistance from each leg to the wiper. The sum of the wiper to legs should equal the resistance across the pot. If the wiper appears to be disconnected, mark its position and then rotate the wiper through its travel and then back to the mark. If this fails to restore contact or the wiper contact is intermittent, replace the pot - it's not worth the effort trying to save a failing potentiometer. CRC From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Nov 30 09:51:17 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:51:17 -0500 Subject: NNC Computers, was Re Vector Graphic restoration progress update Message-ID: <003201c83368$d8fd3f70$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> I've known about NNC for quite a while and have at least one of them around here along with documentaion. It is a box with two vertical 8" drives and about the width of a regular S-100 box. I just took a look in the 1983 DATAPRO Small Computers notebook, and didn't see anything about them. That makes me think they had disappeard by then. BTW, I've found the DATAPRO marketing information to be a *great* souce of information on a lot of the companies. I think Sellam might have a more complete set of them. > From: jim s > > > It has a VG 1 case repainted and > > relabeled as a "No Name Computer" with all VG 5 components inside. > > Seriously, it is called NNC and that is not a joke. It is a very strange > > name. > > > There was a company called NNC located in Huntington Beach Ca in the > late 70's or early 80's that made basic S-100 hardware. I'll ask a > friend to get the names and history, but you may have an actual NNC box > and not a vector graphics system. > > I don't recall VG's history but I think that a flood of their hardware > appeared on the junk market and someone may have built up a box from > parts using an NNC mainframe. > > The NNC company built chassis with a backplane and power supply > initially and tried to do the entire system before collapsing. The > manufacturer was actually a guy who built components from sheet metal, > and found that building computer boxes was more profitable. I don't > know if there was a connection to VG but that would not be impossible. > > Jim > -----REPLY----- Hi Marvin! Wow! You have a NNC machine? Would you mind popping the cover off on it and taking a couple of photos? I am very interested to see what is inside and it may clear up some of the mystery surrounding this machine I am restoring. If the documents mention anything about VG parts, surely that would be interesting as well. Looking at my NNC chassis, if you put two 8" floppy drives in there it would use up nearly all the room inside. I can't see how there would be any left for an S-100 motherboard so maybe it is an external drive enclosure? I am using an old IBM PC chassis as a homebuilt drive enclosure for the floppy drive on the NNC machine here. I had assumed that since the NNC was full of exclusively VG parts and the case is essentially a repainted VG 1 case that NNC was some sort of VG VAR or shell company maybe from the post VG bankruptcy era. If it were a homebuilt machine, I would think there would be a more diverse selection of parts, however, it is just a guess. Thanks! Andrew Lynch PS, is the DATAPRO Small Computers notebook available online anywhere? I can't seem to find it. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 30 10:22:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:22:22 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <474FC5DD.4070504@jbrain.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com><200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com><002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474FC5DD.4070504@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <475038BE.2040505@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Brain wrote: >> > pics? I'm not sure I recall a wedge-shaped PSU. >> >> OK, look here: http://jope.fi/cbm/cbm/c64psu.jpg. >> >> The PSU I'm referring to is the leftmost one of the three in that >> picture; I've always called them "wedge shaped", but I suppose "cheese >> block" would be closer to the mark, LOL. > Wow, never seen anything like that. The ones on the right and middle > are all I know as PSUs. Ya learn something new every day. Jumping in... Curious. For 'old shape' C64 machines, I've never seen anything *except* the wedge-shape design - I didn't know anything else existed until the time when CBM re-did the machine case itself. Isn't it exactly the same shell as the Plus/4 PSU, but in beige rather than black? J. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 10:49:15 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:49:15 +0000 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image In-Reply-To: <4747DFF9.5060708@msu.edu> References: <4747DFF9.5060708@msu.edu> Message-ID: <47503F0B.4070309@frixxon.co.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone out there have a dump of the VT100 character ROM? (This is the > ROM located at E4 on the VT100 PCB, labeled as 23-018E2-00) The patterns are shown on pages 4-78 and 4-79 of EK-VT100-TM-003, "VT100 Series Video Terminal Technical Manual". It also explains why the characters you see on screen don't look exactly like the ROM pattern, due to dot stretching. Dot stretching was also used on the VT220. You can find a simpler explanation of it here: http://vt100.net/dec/vt220/glyphs -- Paul From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Nov 30 10:53:42 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:53:42 -0500 Subject: Massively parallel C64 project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9731FE54-962E-42B4-A73D-9BE620813DDC@xlisper.com> Sellam, Is this project still happening? Do you have any need for volunteers to work on programming? Do you have a description of the hardware that will interconnect the machines? Thanks, David Betz From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 30 11:06:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:06:02 -0800 Subject: Amiga languages In-Reply-To: <4910.84.68.40.52.1196430432.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <4910.84.68.40.52.1196430432.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <474FD27A.21536.66D5E196@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2007 at 14:47, Lee Davison wrote: > "HeliOS is an innovative, fast and efficient Amiga programming > language which has been developed over many years. It is fully > compatible with ALL Amigas running any operating system newer > than AmigaDOS 1.1, including AGA and 68060 based machines." Ah, we have a case of acronym conflict. Take a look at: http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/prototypes/transputer.html Some of those Amiga add-in Transputer boards look to be pretty cool, but Helios is the Transputer OS for many of them. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 30 11:19:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:19:15 -0800 Subject: IBM mechnical devices In-Reply-To: <01C83314.63CB75E0@mandr71> References: <01C83314.63CB75E0@mandr71> Message-ID: <474FD593.18071.66E1FC4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2007 at 5:46, M H Stein wrote: > The keypunch equivalents could, but were much too slow for serious output > operations. Not only were they slower to begin with, but they punched 80 > columns lengthwise while pretty well all the electro-mechanical EAMs worked > on the principle of a 12-phase synchronized cycle across the card, corresponding > to the 12 zones of the cards. ...and if you were one of the poor unfortunates to get saddled with the 024 keypunch in a room of 026s, you needed the 557--the 024 didn't print on the card--you flew "blind" or you just read the punch holes visually. Fortunately, there was a standard IBM card form that numbered the interpreter print columns on the two top rows as 1-60 and 61-80, so you could figure out what printed character corresponded to what punched column. Unless of course, some practical joker decided to swap a couple of wires on the 557 plugboard... Later, some keypunches could be used as light-duty card punches for systems. I recall a CDC 1700 mini being hooked to a Univac keypunch. Tab offered a keypunch that had an RS-232C interface on it and probably were not the only ones. Both of those, IIRC, had "buffered" keyboard interfaces--you typed in the card, then the punch punched the whole thing. I preferred the 029 "press a key, get a kerchunk". Later, I had the same issue with the daisywheel typewriters that seemed to print asynchronously with one's typing. Cheers, Chuck From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Nov 30 11:50:04 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:50:04 +0100 Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... Message-ID: <47504D4C.7050901@bluewin.ch> .. the ( single) flash chip in it is a "HY27UV08" Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or they have run right out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 again. Jos From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 30 11:55:51 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:55:51 -0800 Subject: Massively parallel C64 project In-Reply-To: <9731FE54-962E-42B4-A73D-9BE620813DDC@xlisper.com> References: <9731FE54-962E-42B4-A73D-9BE620813DDC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: At 11:53 AM -0500 11/30/07, David Betz wrote: >Sellam, > >Is this project still happening? Do you have any need for volunteers >to work on programming? Do you have a description of the hardware >that will interconnect the machines? Wasn't this displayed at VCF-X? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Nov 30 11:58:49 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:58:49 -0500 Subject: Massively parallel C64 project In-Reply-To: References: <9731FE54-962E-42B4-A73D-9BE620813DDC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: >> Is this project still happening? Do you have any need for >> volunteers to work on programming? Do you have a description of the >> hardware that will interconnect the machines? > > Wasn't this displayed at VCF-X? It was scheduled to be displayed but it wasn't done in time. I'm just trying to find out if the project is still alive. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 30 12:52:44 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:52:44 -0600 Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... In-Reply-To: <47504D4C.7050901@bluewin.ch> References: <47504D4C.7050901@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > .. the ( single) flash chip in it is a "HY27UV08" > > Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or they have run right > out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 again. Can those of us under age 40 get a translation? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Nov 30 13:13:34 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:13:34 +0100 Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... In-Reply-To: <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> References: <47504D4C.7050901@bluewin.ch> <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <475060DE.6070108@bluewin.ch> > Can those of us under age 40 get a translation? I was just refering to the fact that this gigabit flash IC has the same typenumber as a 30 year old 1kx8 2708 eprom. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 30 13:15:57 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:15:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... In-Reply-To: <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <915926.10585.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > > > .. the ( single) flash chip in it is a "HY27UV08" > > > > Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or > they have run right > > out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 > again. > > Can those of us under age 40 get a translation? The 2708 is a 1kx8 EPROM chip. -Ian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 30 13:18:09 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:18:09 +0000 Subject: New thread - Unwanted / Available parts In-Reply-To: <002d01c8332f$590d6a30$911ca8c0@mss.local> References: <002d01c8332f$590d6a30$911ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <475061F1.8030507@philpem.me.uk> Mike Hatch wrote: > I'd recently come across a few Ic's that I have spare and rather than > bin them would prefer to pass them on. Next idea was what about a > central point for members/people to look and see who has what. So I > came up with this -> > > www.soemtron.org/partsavailable/index.html > > <- its an idea, would it be usefull ?, or not. There are possibly better > ways. Actually, I've been working on a similar thing... About three months ago I came to two separate conclusions: 1) I had too many components, some of which were bought for a project that got abandoned, and had no other real use. 2) They weren't organised in anything resembling order. Not even organised chaos. So I started writing a PHP-based database to track: A) What I had B) Where it was C) What it did That is to say, a stock database. It tracks what components I have, where I've put them (i.e. what the label on the storage box is) and how many I have left. I've also got - on the drawing board - "component trading" functionality. More like: Fred has a box of 20x XYZ123s. He wants to keep 5, but offers the rest for trade. Jim is looking for six XYZ123s. He searches the database, and finds that Fred has 15 on offer. He clicks on the Request Trade button. Fred gets an email from the site that says Jim is requesting a trade. Fred can now contact Jim via the site, and everything that's been said is tracked and listed. After a bit of to-and-fro negotiation, Jim offers some KAA9320s in trade. Fred and Jim send their parts to each other Fred and Jim receive their parts, then each leaves feedback for the other. The trade is marked as completed. They all live happily ever after The software is called ISIS, and there's a quick half-done demo of it on http://isistest.philpem.me.uk/. My offline beta has Digikey auto-importing ("I have 24x 199-9929-NDs, get the data from DK and import it") and Mass Import, but that's about all that's different. No user authentication yet, either. Comments? -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Nov 30 13:09:03 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:09:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: VT100 Character ROM image In-Reply-To: <47503F0B.4070309@frixxon.co.uk> References: <4747DFF9.5060708@msu.edu> <47503F0B.4070309@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200711301921.OAA14644@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Dot stretching was also used on the VT220. You can find a simpler > explanation of it here: http://vt100.net/dec/vt220/glyphs Simpler, perhaps - but, I believe, wrong. Consider this quote: The VT220 display was refreshed at 60 Hz, which is slow by today's standards. This slower refresh rate required a slower phosphor on the CRT, or users would notice flickering. However, slower phosphor means slower to light up as well as slower to fade, and this slow rise time would make single pixels almost invisible. The first two sentences are fine, as is the first half of the last sentence, but the second half of the last sentence is wrong. It's confusing two different rise times. In each case there is an input step signal and a somewhat smoothed output signal whose rise time is of interest, but they are totally different. In one case, the input is electrons hitting the phosphor and the output is light generated. In the other case, the input is the signal from the character generator circuitry and the output is the voltage controlling the intensity of the electron beam. The former is related to phosphor persistence; the latter is related to how much smoothing is inflicted on the signal by certain pieces of circuitry and has nothing whatever to do with phosphor - indeed, it can be applied to any amplifier or transmission line. Stating that there is a direct causal link between them, as the part of the above quote after the last comma does, is just _wrong_. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 30 13:25:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:25:11 -0700 Subject: New thread - Unwanted / Available parts In-Reply-To: <475061F1.8030507@philpem.me.uk> References: <002d01c8332f$590d6a30$911ca8c0@mss.local> <475061F1.8030507@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <47506397.2000903@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Fred and Jim send their parts to each other > Fred and Jim receive their parts, then each leaves feedback for the > other. > The trade is marked as completed. > They all live happily ever after > Comments? I this would be better for spare boards rather just parts. PS. That bunny sig is sure taking a long time for world domination. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 30 13:24:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:24:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM mechnical devices In-Reply-To: <01C83314.63CB75E0@mandr71> References: <01C83314.63CB75E0@mandr71> Message-ID: <20071130112014.D95944@shell.lmi.net> > > human-readable (such as your COBOL cards) they'd be punched on a > > printing keypunch (026) in the first place. > Unfortunately, the card output punches of most of the computers, and the > stand-alone duplicator didn't print when it punched. > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007, M H Stein wrote: > Afraid I don't get your point; after all, that was the purpose of > interpreters like . . . > Your COBOL source cards on the other hand would have been punched > on a keypunch and could have been printed as they were punched, no? That's my point. If you have a DUPLICATE copy of a COBOL source deck, then it needs to be interpreted. The first/original copy will have been printed by the punch, but all subsequent copies won't. Ah, for the days when a "backup" meant a duplicate copy of a deck, with only one magic marker diagonal, so far. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 30 13:27:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:27:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old laptop hard drive "goo" In-Reply-To: <474FF3FE020000C900033168@zgrw01.cf.ac.uk> References: <200711292354.lATNsixm093034@dewey.classiccmp.org> <474FF3FE020000C900033168@zgrw01.cf.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20071130112702.M95944@shell.lmi.net> > I didn't think a hard drive contained anything that could ooze out. > Any idea what it could be and does that mean the drive is pretty much > toast? Let the magic goo out? If you compress a drive, does the magic smoke turn into magic goo? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 30 13:50:13 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:50:13 +0000 Subject: New thread - Unwanted / Available parts In-Reply-To: <47506397.2000903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <002d01c8332f$590d6a30$911ca8c0@mss.local> <475061F1.8030507@philpem.me.uk> <47506397.2000903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47506975.5040505@philpem.me.uk> woodelf wrote: > I this would be better for spare boards rather just parts. Nothing says you have to use it just for components, or just for PCBs. You could use it for either or both. > PS. That bunny sig is sure taking a long time for world domination. Indeed... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 30 12:38:57 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:38:57 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 94 Message-ID: <01C83363.4A9C5F40@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:19:15 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: IBM mechnical devices On 30 Nov 2007 at 5:46, M H Stein wrote: >> The keypunch equivalents could, but were much too slow for serious output >> operations. Not only were they slower to begin with, but they punched 80 >> columns lengthwise while pretty well all the electro-mechanical EAMs worked >> on the principle of a 12-phase synchronized cycle across the card, corresponding >> to the 12 zones of the cards. >...and if you were one of the poor unfortunates to get saddled with >the 024 keypunch in a room of 026s, you needed the 557--the 024 >didn't print on the card--you flew "blind" or you just read the punch >holes visually. When they did it full-time, keypunchers and EAM operators got pretty good at sight-reading cards... >Fortunately, there was a standard IBM card form that numbered the >interpreter print columns on the two top rows as 1-60 and 61-80, so >you could figure out what printed character corresponded to what >punched column. Unless of course, some practical joker decided to >swap a couple of wires on the 557 plugboard... Heh, heh... yes, there was lots of opportunity for practical jokes... >Later, some keypunches could be used as light-duty card punches for >systems. I recall a CDC 1700 mini being hooked to a Univac keypunch. >Tab offered a keypunch that had an RS-232C interface on it and >probably were not the only ones. Both of those, IIRC, had "buffered" >keyboard interfaces--you typed in the card, then the punch punched >the whole thing. So did the later "normal" keypunches from IBM et al. >I preferred the 029 "press a key, get a kerchunk". >Later, I had the same issue with the daisywheel typewriters that >seemed to print asynchronously with one's typing. Cheers, Chuck Yes, they definitely had audible and tactile feedback; in fact you could feel it in your feet ;-) And then there were "light" keypunches. I've got one here by Wright that works like the old Dymo label makers: you dial up your character, press the punch bar and it moves to the next column (and prints BTW). mike From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Nov 30 14:14:13 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:14:13 -0500 Subject: Mechanical calculators (was: Re: *updating* 8088's) Message-ID: <01C83363.D43E7120@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:52:16 +0100 From: "Arno Kletzander" Subject: Mechanical calculators (was: Re: *updating* 8088's) "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Friday 23 November 2007 22:23, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > There are many kinds of mechanical memory. In particular, I recall > > an early TTY device that used a large rotating drum with cams > > embedded in the surface. One could flip a cam one way or the other > > and then read them out. I'm trying to remember what sort of machine > > this was used on and its application, but my memory sadly fails me. > > This stirs a vague recollection of an old mechanical adding machine I > once had, the kind that had a big rectangular array of buttons instead > of just a "10-key" set of numbers. I have *no* idea how it stored a > number in there, though. Hmm, like, say, an old cash register? This design is called "Volltastaturmaschine" in German (would translate to "complete keyboard machine"). They have a latching mechanism that holds in one button per column of keys (0-9, representing one digit of a number). When a calculation is initiated, the protruding shaft of the latched key acts as a stop for a toothed rack or similar device which is used to advance the wheels of the accumulator register by as many teeth as the corresponding digit says. There are also designs which involve an arrangement of levers positioning an intermediate gear along the axis of a stepped drum, for example the Badenia VA-17/VARE-17. The big advantage is that zeros need not be entered (to enter 100.00, you just press the "1" button in the fifth column from the right) and that operators could learn to "touch-type" on these keyboards, effectively entering all digits of a number in parallel and greatly reducing cycle times. -- Arno Kletzander www.iser.uni-erlangen.de -----------Reply: The IBM unit record or Tabulating machines that we've been discussing had their roots in the same principles as these calculators, adding machines and cash registers, but instead of a depressed key stopping a moving rack in a certain position (a certain point of time in the machine's "cycle"), a set of wire brushes (later replaced by photocells) would make contact through the holes in the card as it moved vertically through the different digit positions, and pick a relay, latch a rotating selector (and lock a synchronized moving typebar if it was a printer) to represent that digit electrically. Like the manual full keyboards, all 80 digits/characters were processed simultaneously. Timing diagrams looked similar to the modern square waves we're all familiar with (although they were sometimes arranged in a set of concentric circles to represent a complete cycle), but instead of a continuous linear time line they had a definite beginning and end and were divided into equal-length "digit" times. When electronics started to replace more and more of the mechanical gears and relays there was a paradigm shift and everything switched to reading and processing cards "serially" ("parallel" from our modern perspective ;-), i.e. lengthwise by character, instead of all characters in "parallel" by digit. The "Accounting" or "Posting" machines _also_ known as EAMs (Electr(on)ic Accounting Machines) made by Burroughs, NCR etc. and used in almost every bank also used the same basic principle. Because a good operator could enter an entire multi-digit amount in one "keystroke" and data entry speed was more important than processing, they retained full keyboards for quite a while even after the gears and cams had been replaced with electronic equivalents. The moving racks and cams were simply replaced by a set of rotating 10-position selector "switches" and connected to the electronic "adjunct" with thick multi-conductor cables. The processors in turn operated on "words" consisting of 15 or more 10-"bit" "bytes;" guess you could call it parallel processing... m From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 14:29:02 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:29:02 -0500 Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... In-Reply-To: <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> References: <47504D4C.7050901@bluewin.ch> <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4750728E.3000508@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >> >> .. the ( single) flash chip in it is a "HY27UV08" >> >> Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or they have run right >> out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 again. > > Can those of us under age 40 get a translation? I'm under 40 and I got that joke. 8-P Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 30 14:29:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:29:55 -0700 Subject: Amiga languages (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:31:56 +0000. <20071130123156.GA4709@discordance.org.uk> Message-ID: There were definately multiple commercial FORTH implementations for the Amiga as well as public domain FORTHs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 30 14:49:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:49:14 -0800 Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... In-Reply-To: <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> References: <47504D4C.7050901@bluewin.ch>, <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <475006CA.13450.67A239EA@cclist.sydex.com> > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > > > .. the ( single) flash chip in it is a "HY27UV08" > > > > Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or they have run right > > out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 again. I particularly enjoy the "UV" in the middle. From jzg22 at drexel.edu Fri Nov 30 15:22:38 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:22:38 -0500 Subject: PC3270 Model 5271 BIOS In-Reply-To: <200711291800.lATI0S9b088891@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200711291800.lATI0S9b088891@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47507F1E.5040302@drexel.edu> I'm looking for a copy of the BIOS of the IBM PC3270 Model 5271. Does anyone here have one of these machines that is working? If so, the bios can be dumped using MSDOS DEBUG, see http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:dump_bios_using_debug Bios should be in range E000-FFFF. Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 30 15:23:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:23:04 -0600 Subject: New thread - Unwanted / Available parts In-Reply-To: <002d01c8332f$590d6a30$911ca8c0@mss.local> References: <002d01c8332f$590d6a30$911ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <47507F38.1030603@yahoo.co.uk> Mike Hatch wrote: > I'd recently come across a few Ic's that I have spare and rather than > bin them would prefer to pass them on. Next idea was what about a > central point for members/people to look and see who has what. So I > came up with this -> > > www.soemtron.org/partsavailable/index.html > > <- its an idea, would it be usefull ?, or not. There are possibly better > ways. Actually, how well would a freecycle-type list for classiccmp.org work? For some reason the casual offered/wanted model tends to suit me a lot better than itemising everything I have and deciding which bits I definitely know I don't need now and won't ever need (somehow, I'm a lot better at getting rid of stuff when I know in advance I have a taker for it) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 30 15:33:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:33:00 -0800 Subject: Mechanical calculators (was: Re: *updating* 8088's) In-Reply-To: <01C83363.D43E7120@MSE_D03> References: <01C83363.D43E7120@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4750110C.29954.67CA4D47@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:52:16 +0100 From: "Arno Kletzander" > Hmm, like, say, an old cash register? This design is called > "Volltastaturmaschine" in German (would translate to "complete > keyboard machine"). They have a latching mechanism that holds in one > button per column of keys (0-9, representing one digit of a number). > When a calculation is initiated, the protruding shaft of the latched > key acts as a stop for a toothed rack or similar device which is used > to advance the wheels of the accumulator register by as many teeth as > the corresponding digit says. There are also designs which involve an > arrangement of levers positioning an intermediate gear along the axis > of a stepped drum, for example the Badenia VA-17/VARE-17. When you mention the big array of keys, I think of a comptometer. There's a nice discussion on the web: http://www2.cruzio.com/~vagabond/ComptHome.html But the item I'm thinking of was alphanumeric, more like a Teletype. Cheers, Chuck From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Nov 30 15:38:33 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:38:33 -0500 Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... In-Reply-To: <47504D4C.7050901@bluewin.ch> References: <47504D4C.7050901@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20071130213833.5F183BA46BC@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > .. the ( single) flash chip in it is a "HY27UV08" > > Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or they have run right > out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 again. Several years ago, Motorola/IBM used the part number "7400" for some of their PowerPC chips. Of course IBM and Motorola had their own numbers for their TTL series... Tim. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 30 17:39:04 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:39:04 -0600 Subject: Massively parallel C64 project In-Reply-To: References: <9731FE54-962E-42B4-A73D-9BE620813DDC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <47509F18.3050904@jbrain.com> David Betz wrote: >>> Is this project still happening? Do you have any need for volunteers >>> to work on programming? Do you have a description of the hardware >>> that will interconnect the machines? >> >> Wasn't this displayed at VCF-X? > > > It was scheduled to be displayed but it wasn't done in time. I'm just > trying to find out if the project is still alive. Robert Bernardo sent an email prior to VCF noting that Sellam was looking for some volunteers to chat about this project. I threw my name in the hat, and this is what I got back: (more after the include) -------------------------------------------------- Hi James and Jim and Robert. It is too late to revive the project in time for the VCF this weekend, but I would definitely like to move forward with it and am thinking about presenting this at an as yet completely perliminary idea for a vintage computer music event sometime next year. The guy I had working on it (Michael Belanger) had the design advanced to the point where he had several C64 units connected and could pass data between them. About 6 weeks ago he disappeared. I assume he either got very busy or fled to Canada or something. At any rate, the design he was focusing on used the User Port and the keyboard port to make a bi-directional 8-bit data path. I wanted him to not use the keyboard port as I thought there were plenty of other ports to use (like the joysticks). Plus, we don't need a full 8-bits of datapath. 4 is fine; even serial will suffice. The network architecture we settled on was a token ring type. The C64s would be connected in a loop. We didn't flesh out the network operation fully before Michael vanished, so that still needs some work. My preference is to not introduce any extra hardware into this. I want it to be done with stock C64s. The only hardware I would add is a carthridge with the NOS on it plugged into each CPU so we don't have to manually boot the system node by node. Anyway, there's still a lot of work to be done. I guess we can just start from scratch at this point, now that I have a couple people who are more interested in the project. The ultimate goal is to make a cluster that can perform general purpose computations that would benefit from parallelization, such as graphics rendering (fractals anyone)? And of course to turn it into a 192 voice SID synthesizer. I already have a couple artists who want to use it to compose. Let me first get through the VCF this weekend and then we'll start on this project in earnest. ---------------------------------------- I looked online for some information, given the name and the project name. I found a few snippets on the Lemon64 forum, but nothing of specific nature. I then asked the CBM-Hackers group for some ideas, and we tore through some ideas. I agree with Sellam's concern about opening up the 64 and using so much IO. Although some parallel approaches were discussed, the group consensus trended towards using the two CIA SPI ports available on the user port, which would provide very good throughput, and minimal wiring. Beyond that, I have heard nothing from Sellam, though I am eager to help. I had design notes here for the same project lying here, in the pile of things "neat to do at some point" anyway. On the CBM-Hackers discussion, there was not consensus between peer2peer and master/slave (or whatever the politically correct term for it would be), and discussion died down. Even though I was not sure about the SPI approach early in the discussions, I do believe it is the best way to go with the number of machines involved. But, the collision avoidance/detection solution eluded us. I had not thrown it out here as yet, but I am open to ideas, as it is a personal itch to scratch, especially if it does not involve much HW. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 18:01:12 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:01:12 +1100 Subject: Amiga languages (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) References: Message-ID: <011c01c833ad$4bd79ec0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:29 AM Subject: Re: Amiga languages (was Re: Teaching kids about computers...) > There were definately multiple commercial FORTH implementations for > the Amiga as well as public domain FORTHs. Indeed, I graduated in 1986 from a C64 cartridge based implementation to MVP FORTH on the A1000. Not sure if MVP was the first, but definitely one of the earliest. Still have it, still sometimes (rarely) play with it. Lance // http://www.commodore128.org // From brain at jbrain.com Fri Nov 30 18:04:28 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:04:28 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 PSUs In-Reply-To: <475038BE.2040505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com><200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com><002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474FC5DD.4070504@jbrain.com> <475038BE.2040505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4750A50C.3030100@jbrain.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: >>> > pics? I'm not sure I recall a wedge-shaped PSU. >>> >>> OK, look here: http://jope.fi/cbm/cbm/c64psu.jpg. >>> >>> The PSU I'm referring to is the leftmost one of the three in that >>> picture; I've always called them "wedge shaped", but I suppose >>> "cheese block" would be closer to the mark, LOL. >> Wow, never seen anything like that. The ones on the right and middle >> are all I know as PSUs. Ya learn something new every day. > > Jumping in... > > Curious. For 'old shape' C64 machines, I've never seen anything > *except* the wedge-shape design - I didn't know anything else existed > until the time when CBM re-did the machine case itself. Isn't it > exactly the same shell as the Plus/4 PSU, but in beige rather than black? > > THis is all I have here for old-style 64 PS: http://www.bullnet.co.uk/shops/live/images/c64.jpg Now, I only know this as the PS for the Plus/4: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/vic20/h/plus4.jpg This interesting unit I have seen on VICs: http://www.commodore.ca/products/vic20/vic202.jpg Of course, while searching, I came upon this item I have never seen. Another day of learning. I want one! http://cdn2.soundclick.com/21/imgPages/3/3/3059673_63411.jpg?version=206 I have a rounded (non-fin) 2 prong VIC PS in storage, but I can't find good pics online, so take my word at present that such rounded non-finned beasts exist. Truly trivial, but oh well. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 30 18:14:22 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:14:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 64 PSUs In-Reply-To: <4750A50C.3030100@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Nov 30, 7 06:04:28 pm" Message-ID: <200712010014.lB10EMv5011186@floodgap.com> > THis is all I have here for old-style 64 PS: I have a wedge 64 PSU for my imported 64GS. However, I use it with an American supply, of course. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is different. No two people are not on fire. -- Strong Bad #84 ---- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 18:05:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:05:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teaching kids about computers... In-Reply-To: <474F3919.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 29, 7 04:11:37 pm Message-ID: > > Yep - I was poking around at the Acorn ACW PSU recently [1] and it struck me > that it should be hard to modify pretty much any 'simple' SMPSU to run off US > 'mains', even if it was notionally 220V (-ish) only. You're right about The reverse is, alas, not true. It's easy to design an SMPSU which runs at about 170V DC, produced by rectifying 115V mains. There's no easy way to convert those to run off 230V mains (other than a step-down transformer...) > 'auxiliary' stuff run direct from the AC input of course. > > [1] It was a model made by VMS - *not* the same as the one in your hand-drawn > ACW schematics. I actually found two ACWs with the same supply, suggesting I > didn't just happen to have someone's post-production replacement. I ended up This does not suprise me. When I got my ACW, the PSU was 'held' in by heatsink compound sticking it to the monitor chassis. The 2 fixing screws were the wrong trhead for the holes in the PSU bracket. And the output cable is a bit of a kludge. But it fits, and it gives the right output voltages... I suspect Acorn used several different supplies. And maybe the supply in mine was replaced later. > drawing out the schematics, which I should probably mail a copy of to you > sometime just for completeness' sake... It would certainly be interesting to see , although the chances of me ever having to work on another ACW are slim... Talking of rare UK workstations, did you see that optimist on E-bay who's trying to sell a non-working Whitechapel MG1 [1] with a defective monitor? Starting bid \poudns 3000. Hmmm... [1] A 32016-based workstaition, the 'MG' standing for 'monochrome graphics' or 'Milliard Gargantubrain' (!) It has the odd feature of a bit-serial graphics processor thats' slower than doing the graphics operation on the 32106, and was thus left out of later machines. One option for it is a 3-slot ISA backplane (!). Oh, and it has a battery-operated power switch, the batteries routinely go flat, the cure being to connect a 9V battery to a header inside provided for the purpose (according to the techincal manual). > > >> never prodded a 6809 myself (just 6502 and Z80), but I guess I could stand to > >> learn too :-) > > > > You'll love it. It's waht the 6502 should ahve been. 16 bit index > > registers, 16 bit stack pointer -- no make that 2 16 bit stack pointers, > > progam counter relative addressign modes and long branches for > > position-independant code, 'zero page' in any 256 byte page of memory, 2 > > accumulators that can be combindd to make a 16 bit one, the most > > orthogonal instruction set of any 8-bitter, etc, etc, etc. > > Sounds good. I got on quite well with the Z80, which was the first CPU I ever > did any assembly with, and the 6502 always seemed a bit clunky in comparison > (not that I remember the Z80 being particularly elegant or anything!) I prefered the Z80 to the 6502, but then when I learnt the 6809 I prefered that to the Z80. > > > I always wish the Beeb had used that as its CPU. Acorn clearly knew about > > it (they'd made a 6809-bsed System CPU board), but for some odd reason > > they didn't use it in the Beeb. > > You know, one day when I get time (yeah, right), I'd quite like to build one > of the 6809 System boards. I've got the board manual/schematic, and I believe > I've got a copy of the firmware ROM somewhere. I've also got at least one there are at least 2 versions of the firmware. The one that's given in the source listing in the manual uses the 40 column teletext-compatible VDU card (the one with a SAA5050 character generator on it). I have that one on a 'spare' board. But the CPU board in my System has firmware for the 80-column text-only video board. > Control Universal System-bus 6809 board and want to compare one to the Acorn > schematic sometime - as Acorn licensed the System technology to CU, it'll be > interesting to see if the CU board is essentially the same as the Acorn one. > > I'm not sure [1] when the 6809 CPU came out? Acorn's System 1 was circa > 1978/79, so maybe that pre-dates the 6809 by a while - and it was just for > legacy reasons that Acorn stuck with the 6502 for the beeb after using it for > the System and Atom machines? (somewhere I've even got an Acorn System bus > expansion module for a BBC micro, so it'll take System-era boards) The 6809 and 6502 buses are _very_ similar (read 'E' for 'Phi2', basically ;-)). Most I/O cards would work with either CPU (hence the lack of problems in haveing a 6809 CPU in a System). Of course the instruction set, and thus firmware/software are very different. Yes, I suspect the Ssytem 1 does predate the 6809 -- just. But what about the relative times of the Beeb and the 6809-based System CPU board? I would have thoguht the Beeb could have been designed to use the 6809. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 18:18:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:18:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, In-Reply-To: <20071129235059.GB23879@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 29, 7 11:50:59 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 05:10:05PM -0600, Jay West wrote: > > Richard wrote... > > >>Looks like noone else wanted to pay that much either. I don't know > > >>where they came up with a price like $1700 for 4 11/04s ($425 ea?), > > It's more than _I_ would want to pay for a bare 11/04 in unknown > condition. Me too.. > > > To which Pat replied... > > >An 11/04 is somewhat more desirable of a machine than the 11/03 is (it's > > >UNIBUS instead of QBUS), but you still lack the MMU, and only have a > > >calculator-keypad frontpanel instead of a full lights and toggles IIRC the keypad frontpanel is an option (the 'Programmer's Panel'), as I believe it is on the 11/34. Every 11/34 I've seen has had the keypad, every 11/04 hasn't, but that's hardly a representative sample. > > >frontpane, and it's relatively slow. So, it's not generally all that > > >desirable to people, compared to something like an 11/83, or even an > > >11/10, or 11/34. > > It's a fine RT-11 box, but so is an 11/23 (which is much more common > and about the same physical size). If you had some Unibus peripherals The 11/04 has one advantage (to me) over the 11/23. The CPU is not one (or a few) custom chipa, it's a board of standard parts -- TTL, PROMs, etc. That could be an advnatage if you're looking for a machine you can repair easily, or what to learn (or teach) the internals of a real CPU. > you wanted to play with, you could drop a couple in there, but ISTR > there's a small number of empty slots after you install the CPU, memory, > and a console. > > I'm not saying it's an terrible machine - I have one myself. There are I nearly got one, but eneded up taking na 11/34 instead. I don't really regret that choice. The 111/04 and 11/34 are pretty similar. Same backplane, mounting box (There are 2, 5,.25" and 10.5", but either can be used for either machine), memory, PSU (for a particular box), front panel etc. The 11/04 is a simgle hex-height board for the CPU, the 11/34 is 2 boards. _Somewhere_ O have an 11/04/34 user manual were references to the 11/09 and 11/39 have clearly been whited out before the manual was duplicated... In fact I think one of the line drawings has '11/39' on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 18:27:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:27:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Nov 30, 7 10:33:47 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Does anybody know which ones and could they do PAL or just NTSC? > > > > All models except the A4000 (and maybe the A3000, but I'm not sure) were made > > in NTSC or PAL specific versions, with a different color generator and > > crystal to match. The A4000 had a jumper on the motherboard that selected > > either NTSC or PAL timings. > > ..."There ain't such thing as NTSC or PAL timings"... only video timings > and optionally a color carrier of some kind. Correct. There are certainly 525-line PAL standards. And it wouldn't suprise me if there wasn't a 625-line colour system using NTSC-lke encoding. And PAL does not imply a 4.43MHz colur subcarrier either. There are PAL standards with 35...MHz carriers. > The only model that could output a NTSC or PAL signal was the Amiga 1000. > Early European models did NTSC, newer ones (like mine) did PAL. With the > appearance of the 500/2000 in spring 1987 Commodore removed the color > generator from the machines so they only output a monochrome BAS (VBS) > instead of an FBAS (CVBS) signal. No color, no NTSC nor PAL, i.e. signals > without color carrier are neither NTSC nor PAL. Unfortunately, people tend to use 'NTSC' to mean 'RS170 video timings' (which might be reasonable, did RS-170 come from the National Television Standards Committee?) and 'PAL' to mean System B/G/I timings. No I don't like it either (I tend to say 'US' or 'European' video, which while not precise is at least not technically wrong). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 18:31:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:31:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... In-Reply-To: <47505BFC.5000202@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Nov 30, 7 12:52:44 pm Message-ID: > > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > > > .. the ( single) flash chip in it is a "HY27UV08" > > > > Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or they have run right > > out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 again. > > Can those of us under age 40 get a translation? The 2708 was an early EPROM (but by no means the first EPROM). It was a 1K*8 bit device, and needed 3 power supply voltages (even in read mode). The Chip in Jos's memory stick has a very similar number, but is many times the capacity (and different technology). He was just remarking on that similarity. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 18:38:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:38:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... In-Reply-To: <20071130213833.5F183BA46BC@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 30, 7 04:38:33 pm Message-ID: > > Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or they have run right > > out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 again. > > Several years ago, Motorola/IBM used the part number "7400" for some of their > PowerPC chips. And of course a 4040 from Intel is a 4-bit microprocessor, from RCA it's a 12 bit CMOS counter. I can never rememebr what the 4004 is in the 4000-eries CMOS, it's sufficiently rare that none of the data books I have to hand list it. -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 30 18:52:51 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:52:51 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: Message-ID: <00e601c833b4$8120a7f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > There was a Cobol for Z80-basied systems, mostly CP/M, but it >wouldn't suprise me if it was ported to the TRS-80 too.... It was certainly available for the Model III. >....but there's a Z80 version of BBC Basic (Sinclair Z88, I think, >and certainly the Tetung Einstein).... I'm pretty sure it was also available for the Torch Z80 CP/N processor....put it this way, I had the manual for it but not the disc.... :-( TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 30 19:02:27 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 01:02:27 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: <474EF261.8070407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00f901c833b5$d7579ec0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....I've never prodded a 6809 myself (just 6502 and Z80), but >I guess I could stand to learn too :-) I've been doing a fair bit of 6809 hacking on and off over the past few years (messing around with my Vectrex) and it's a very nice processor indeed. Pretty darn easy to get your head around. Sort of a "souped up" 6800/6802, not entirely unlike Z80 vs 8080. TTFN - Pete. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 19:11:43 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:11:43 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> <002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4affc5e0711301711i2ea52b80rf22a4f738fe6f393@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2007 1:36 AM, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > OK, look here: http://jope.fi/cbm/cbm/c64psu.jpg. > The PSU I'm referring to is the leftmost one of the three in that picture; > I've always called them "wedge shaped", but I suppose "cheese block" would > be closer to the mark, LOL. That's the PSU style I got with my C64 in germany, 84 or thereabouts. Great shape to rest your foot on and keep it nice and warm :-) Never saw that style after moving to canada. Joe. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 30 19:19:14 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 01:19:14 -0000 Subject: Amiga TV Out References: Message-ID: <012401c833b8$2fd24e90$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Correct. There are certainly 525-line PAL standards. And >it wouldn't suprise me if there wasn't a 625-line colour >system using NTSC-lke encoding. As an aside, isn't (wasn't?) France's SECAM system broadcast with something like 800 lines? TTFN - Pete. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Nov 30 19:35:20 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:35:20 -0600 Subject: How easy is it to damage an IBM CGA display? In-Reply-To: <200711292331.SAA01552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200711292331.SAA01552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4750BA58.6080006@brutman.com> All is well - the industrial CGA display is happy being connected to a real CGA card. It's quite the looker too. People at the office are impressed, possibly not in a good way. ;-0 The machine (a 5160) has the monochrome adapter (Hercules), a genuine CGA card, a 3Com 3C503, memory, serial, floppy and a hard disk controller. It has 512KB of RAM and a full height 10MB hard disk. NCSA Telnet *was* running on before I put the CGA card in. (I had a Cirrus Logic VGA card in it yesterday.) Now NCSA Telnet is hanging on startup after reading it's config file. I'm having a hard time believing that the CGA card replacing the VGA card broke it, so I'm going to have to undo my changes and try again. My own TCP/IP still works, so I know it's not a hardware conflict. (It's pretty hard to get CGA to conflict with anything.) Mike From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 30 19:33:57 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 01:33:57 -0000 Subject: Teaching kids about computers... References: Message-ID: <013d01c833ba$3de105b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....relative times of the Beeb and the 6809-based System >CPU board? I would have thoguht the Beeb could have been >designed to use the 6809. I must admit I was disappointed at the time that they didn't choose the 6809 for the Beeb, though not entirely surprised given their past history. Surprising too that Acorn never produced a 6809 second processor. Did any third parties like Torch ever make one? TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 30 19:37:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:37:37 -0800 Subject: Amiga TV Out In-Reply-To: <012401c833b8$2fd24e90$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: , <012401c833b8$2fd24e90$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <47504A61.14959.68AA3E78@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2007 at 1:19, Ensor wrote: > As an aside, isn't (wasn't?) France's SECAM system broadcast with something > like 800 lines? 819, but proposed but not deployed. SECAM-L used in France was 625 lines, like PAL. Variants of SECAM were also deployed in various Warsaw Block countries, including the DDR and some parts of Africa. Although color resolution is lower than NTSC, overall picture quality and relative immunity to transmission disturbances is superior to PAL. Cheers, Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 30 20:06:57 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:06:57 -0600 Subject: My Mercedes CRAY connection Message-ID: I bought a Mercedes ML500 today, and going thru the paperwork, I see the original owner was Dr. Steven Chen. Wow, is this THE Steven Chen, designer of the CRAY X-MP???!!! I dont know, but being a big supercomputer fan and onetime user (CDC 6600 at NASA JSC, and later my own Stardent/Ardent's, and a few silly -g's too) I kind of hope so. If not, the perhaps its just Steven Chen, the founder of U-Tube. Either way, my first ride today was enhanced thinking who had this wonderful machine before me. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.? Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Nov 30 20:22:04 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 02:22:04 -0000 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com><200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com><002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com><004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474FC5DD.4070504@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <014e01c833c0$f71a6a20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Wow, never seen anything like that. The ones on the right >and middle are all I know as PSUs.... I wonder if it was a European thing then? Most of the C-64 PSUs I've come across have been of that type, mine was unusual in that it was of the "black brick" type (like the one in the picture of a +4 you mention in a later message). I've seen very few of those though. And in common with Jules, all of the +4 supplies I've seen were "wedge shaped" (just black). > Years later, the C64 Mouse used the paddles inputs to represent >X and Y digital coordinates via a very ingenious method, IMHO.... Very ingenious, I'd always assumed they'd just wired a quadrature mouse to the joystick inputs.... TTFN - Pete. From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 20:24:27 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:24:27 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 (was "Re: Teaching kids about computers...") In-Reply-To: <014e01c833c0$f71a6a20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com> <200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com> <002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474FC5DD.4070504@jbrain.com> <014e01c833c0$f71a6a20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <9e2403920711301824rb9c543bsfbbdb8391e161998@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2007 8:22 PM, Ensor wrote: > Very ingenious, I'd always assumed they'd just wired a quadrature mouse to > the joystick inputs.... > That's exactly what I did, once upon a GEOS... Of course, the results needed inverting, so I held it upside down. *grins* Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Nov 30 20:57:09 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:57:09 -0600 Subject: Shugart 801 drives? In-Reply-To: <4750BA58.6080006@brutman.com> References: <200711292331.SAA01552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4750BA58.6080006@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4750CD85.2000600@brutman.com> There are two of these for sale in unknown condition. They are big old 8" drives. I've never owned an 8" drive before, and I'm thinking that it would be neat to interface them to an older PC. Any words of advice? Are they difficult to work with or interface? (Any more difficult than an older 5.25" drive?) Mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 30 20:57:25 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:57:25 -0800 Subject: Commodore 64 PSUs In-Reply-To: <4750A50C.3030100@jbrain.com> References: <901126.39063.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200711271227.10312.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C764D.5080702@jbrain.com><200711271527.26394.rtellason@verizon.net> <474C98F7.90705@jbrain.com><002201c83161$3258ac80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org .uk> <474CE31A.3060408@jbrain.com> <004c01c8331b$66790580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <474FC5DD.4070504@jbrain.com> <475038BE.2040505@yahoo.co.uk> <4750A50C.3030100@jbrain.com> Message-ID: At 6:04 PM -0600 11/30/07, Jim Brain wrote: >Of course, while searching, I came upon this item I have never seen. >Another day of learning. I want one! > >http://cdn2.soundclick.com/21/imgPages/3/3/3059673_63411.jpg?version=206 Now that is cool! I wouldn't mind having one! :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 30 21:00:23 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:00:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 64 PSUs In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 30, 7 06:57:25 pm" Message-ID: <200712010300.lB130NvY013292@floodgap.com> > >Of course, while searching, I came upon this item I have never seen. > >Another day of learning. I want one! > > > >http://cdn2.soundclick.com/21/imgPages/3/3/3059673_63411.jpg?version=206 > > Now that is cool! I wouldn't mind having one! :^) This must be the same thing as this: http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/operiph.html There's a cutaway view on the page. I'll add the VIC-1020 as an alias. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Less is more. -- Ludwig Mies van der Rohe ---------------------------------- From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Fri Nov 30 21:01:39 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:01:39 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: References: <200711292354.lATNsixZ093034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1196478099.4750ce9354910@www.jblaser.org> Quoting CRC : > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:02:05 -0700, J Blaser > wrote: > > > In fact, a > > couple of the PS PCBs went through the dishwasher to clean up the > > remains to 'rodent residue'. On the whole, it seems that I got them > > back together properly! ;) > > If there are any potentiometers on the boards that you washed, you > might want to ensure that the wipers are making contact. Generally, > pots are installed after a board wash unless they are sealed. An open Luckily, no potentiometers on the boards I washed. I was concerned about this issue, too, but when I looked over the two boards that I planned to wash, I was glad to find that neither had any 'moving parts' components, mostly just descrete stuff, with an odd IC or two. I think I'm okay on this issue. - Jared From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 30 21:02:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:02:24 -0800 Subject: My Mercedes CRAY connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47505E40.7757.68F7DED5@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2007 at 20:06, Randy Dawson wrote: > Wow, is this THE Steven Chen, designer of the CRAY X-MP???!!! Why does this bring to mind a certain Seinfeld episode having to do with Jon Voigt? I know two Steven Chens and neither has anything to do with Cray, although one is a retired programmer. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 30 21:18:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:18:00 -0500 Subject: My Mercedes CRAY connection Message-ID: <200712010318.lB13I2jk028137@keith.ezwind.net> I once bought a car whose previous owner was "Morgan Freeman" ... not the actor but a short, young, white girl. But I can't think of any way this reply is on-topic. Sorry, Jay! -----Original Message----- From: "Chuck Guzis" Subj: Re: My Mercedes CRAY connection Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:04 pm Size: 320 bytes To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" On 30 Nov 2007 at 20:06, Randy Dawson wrote: > Wow, is this THE Steven Chen, designer of the CRAY X-MP???!!! Why does this bring to mind a certain Seinfeld episode having to do with Jon Voigt? I know two Steven Chens and neither has anything to do with Cray, although one is a retired programmer. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 30 21:27:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:27:24 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an EagleCAD library with the TIL-311 hex display? In-Reply-To: <20071125043247.GB30034@usap.gov> References: <20071125031018.GA29437@usap.gov> <20071125043247.GB30034@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20071201032724.GA6270@usap.gov> On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 08:14:45PM -0800, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > >I am starting a new project and was disappointed to find that the default > >EagleCAD libraries don't have the TIL-311 hex display already entered (or > >at least not that I can find).... > > I found an "HTIL311A" in "display-hp". Is that what you are looking for? Hmm... yes and no. On the surface, it's the correct part, but the library definition is lacking. It lists pins for left and right decimal points, but omits the fact that pin 1 is LED power (you can keep the latch/decoder powered up and disable the LEDs), and very importantly, they omit a connection to pin 6, the latch input (tie low to just display whatever is on the D0-D3 inputs, IIRC). Looks like I'll have to roll my own from the datasheet. Thanks for finding a starting point, though. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 1-Dec-2007 at 03:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -23.4 F (-30.8 C) Windchill -38.6 F (-39.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.6 kts Grid 114 Barometer 681.4 mb (10575 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Fri Nov 30 21:30:30 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:30:30 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: <1196478099.4750ce9354910@www.jblaser.org> References: <200711292354.lATNsixZ093034@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1196478099.4750ce9354910@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <1196479830.4750d55685883@www.jblaser.org> Here's the latest update on the power supply adventures... Tonight I put a load, as suggested, on the 2.5V power supply (and the 5V PS) by attaching a pair of automobile headlamps to each supply. I wired both lamps (for each PS) in parallel with each other, and with the two filaments (Hi- and Lo-Beam) in parallel, too. That gave me four filaments for each power supply as a load. As a result, when I power up, happily the "2.5V FAIL" and the every-8-seconds "OVER VOLTAGE" indications are no longer seen. The voltage on the 2.5V PS output is a rock steady 2.5V. However, on the 5V PS, I'm seeing only +0.85V on the outputs, and I am still seeing the "REG FAIL" indication on the power controller. Obviously there's still a problem in the 5V PS. Using the "VAX-11/750 H7104 Power System Technical Description" doc's fault isolation procedure, which suggests that the +/-15V regulator is broken in the 5V PS, I checked the +/-15V outputs. I should see +15V and -15V, but I'm seeing +7.9 (or so, it's not quite stable) on both outputs even the one that should be negative. The fault isolation procedure in that doc doesn't go any further at this point than to suggest a replacement of the entire 5V power supply box. I'd love to repair it, but I'm certainly not as smart as Tony, nor am I likely to ever figure out the faulty component(s) directly. There is a main 'motherboard', two plug in PCBs, and other bolt-on components galore, and while I can follow some logic circuit diagrams, I'm clearly out of my league with analog/PS stuff. Besides, I haven't been able locate schematics for this power system. Soooo.... Anyone have a spare H7104D 5V PS for this baby??? ;P Aside from the tongue-in- cheekiness, does anyone have schematics and/or Engineering Drawings for this 11/ 750. Maybe I could actually try to sort it out if I had some more information, at least until I electrocute myself! :o Thanks! - Jared From useddec at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 21:45:39 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:45:39 -0600 Subject: DoveBid Phoenix, AZ (4x) PDP 11/04 $1700, In-Reply-To: References: <20071129235059.GB23879@usap.gov> Message-ID: <624966d60711301945q7b098e72nf51cdb9e8151db08@mail.gmail.com> Easy upgrade to a 34 or 34A, just slip in a M7265 and 66 or a M8265 and 66. Any cpu in any box will take the KY11-LA or LB. Paul On 11/30/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 05:10:05PM -0600, Jay West wrote: > > > Richard wrote... > > > >>Looks like noone else wanted to pay that much either. I don't know > > > >>where they came up with a price like $1700 for 4 11/04s ($425 ea?), > > > > It's more than _I_ would want to pay for a bare 11/04 in unknown > > condition. > > Me too.. > > > > > > To which Pat replied... > > > >An 11/04 is somewhat more desirable of a machine than the 11/03 is > (it's > > > >UNIBUS instead of QBUS), but you still lack the MMU, and only have a > > > >calculator-keypad frontpanel instead of a full lights and toggles > > IIRC the keypad frontpanel is an option (the 'Programmer's Panel'), as I > believe it is on the 11/34. Every 11/34 I've seen has had the keypad, > every 11/04 hasn't, but that's hardly a representative sample. > > > > >frontpane, and it's relatively slow. So, it's not generally all that > > > >desirable to people, compared to something like an 11/83, or even an > > > >11/10, or 11/34. > > > > It's a fine RT-11 box, but so is an 11/23 (which is much more common > > and about the same physical size). If you had some Unibus peripherals > > The 11/04 has one advantage (to me) over the 11/23. The CPU is not one > (or a few) custom chipa, it's a board of standard parts -- TTL, PROMs, > etc. That could be an advnatage if you're looking for a machine you can > repair easily, or what to learn (or teach) the internals of a real CPU. > > > you wanted to play with, you could drop a couple in there, but ISTR > > there's a small number of empty slots after you install the CPU, memory, > > and a console. > > > > I'm not saying it's an terrible machine - I have one myself. There are > > I nearly got one, but eneded up taking na 11/34 instead. I don't really > regret that choice. > > The 111/04 and 11/34 are pretty similar. Same backplane, mounting box > (There are 2, 5,.25" and 10.5", but either can be used for either > machine), > memory, PSU (for a particular box), front panel etc. The 11/04 is a > simgle hex-height board for the CPU, the 11/34 is 2 boards. > > _Somewhere_ O have an 11/04/34 user manual were references to the 11/09 > and 11/39 have clearly been whited out before the manual was > duplicated... In fact I think one of the line drawings has '11/39' on it. > > -tony > > From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Fri Nov 30 23:18:30 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:18:30 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 11/750 power supply fault In-Reply-To: <1196479830.4750d55685883@www.jblaser.org> References: <200711292354.lATNsixZ093034@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1196478099.4750ce9354910@www.jblaser.org> <1196479830.4750d55685883@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <1196486310.4750eea63fde9@www.jblaser.org> Quoting J Blaser : > Anyone have a spare H7104D 5V PS for this baby??? ;P Aside from the > tongue-in-cheekiness, does anyone have schematics and/or > Engineering Drawings for this 11/750. Maybe I could actually try > to sort it out if I had some more information, at least until I electrocute > myself! :o Well, I should have looked harder... I found the Print Sets for both the 2.5V and 5V power supplies on vt100.net/manx. Hopefully, a little study will give me a hint. - Jared From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Nov 30 23:51:42 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:51:42 -0800 Subject: Shugart 801 drives? In-Reply-To: <4750CD85.2000600@brutman.com> References: <200711292331.SAA01552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4750BA58.6080006@brutman.com> <4750CD85.2000600@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4750F66E.8010502@msm.umr.edu> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > There are two of these for sale in unknown condition. They are big > old 8" drives. I've never owned an 8" drive before, and I'm thinking > that it would be neat to interface them to an older PC. > > Any words of advice? Are they difficult to work with or interface? > (Any more difficult than an older 5.25" drive?) > > > Mike main thing to watch out for is that they take 5, 12 and 28 (i think) volt ps which has to be pretty substantial. If they come w/o that take care what you hook them up with. There probably are a lot of threads on this forum about 8" to PC's w/o opening that can of worms before you search that source of information. Jim From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Nov 30 23:58:42 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:58:42 -0600 Subject: Shugart 801 drives? In-Reply-To: <4750CD85.2000600@brutman.com> References: <4750BA58.6080006@brutman.com> <200711292331.SAA01552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4750BA58.6080006@brutman.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071130235747.0b049728@localhost> At 08:57 PM 11/30/2007 -0600, you wrote: >There are two of these for sale in unknown condition. They are big old 8" >drives. I've never owned an 8" drive before, and I'm thinking that it >would be neat to interface them to an older PC. > >Any words of advice? Are they difficult to work with or interface? (Any >more difficult than an older 5.25" drive?) I have a Shugart 801 for sale with power supply (no case), Price: reasonable. ----- 458. [Humor] If Miles Davis had been born in Europe, would his name have been Kilometers Davis? --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Nov 30 03:06:08 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:06:08 -0800 Subject: VT100 Character ROM image In-Reply-To: <38F6FB92-D8B4-4554-A12B-D881829D7549@neurotica.com> References: <474E6545.3000002@msu.edu> <38F6FB92-D8B4-4554-A12B-D881829D7549@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <474FD280.8080804@msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007, at 2:07 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Yep. If there /is/ anything on either of those that I'm missing, let >> me know, but I swear I've looked. >> So here's a semi-stupid question; having just acquired a Data I/O >> EEPROM programmer which is also fairly adept at dumping EEPROMs, is >> it possible to use the Data I/O to dump the VT100 rom in question? >> That is, if I choose a PROM or EEPROM type that's compatible with the >> type of ROM in use on the VT100 board, is it likely that I'll be able >> to read it on the programmer like a standard PROM/EEPROM? I'm kinda >> new at this particular corner of the hardware field so I have no >> idea... can someone set me straight? > > Absolutely...that's a pretty common use of such device programmers. > > Groovy. So the ROM in question is a Signetics (I believe) 8228; how do I go about determining what EEPROM is equivalent? Is there a decent reference guide for this sort of thing? Thanks, Josh From speedracer005 at mac.com Fri Nov 30 18:53:24 2007 From: speedracer005 at mac.com (Steven Martin) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:53:24 -0800 Subject: AMSTRAD PCW8256 systems & sw available Message-ID: My dad is 82, a retired College Professor, he owns a Amstrad PCW 8256 and his printer is broken. The printer head doesn't seem to go anywhere so it can't print. Is there someone in the USA that you know of that can help me, we are in California. If you do not know of anyone in the USA is there a way you can direct me to someone I can buy parts from that speaks english or at least can communicate through email in english. thank you, Steve Martin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 30 18:59:33 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:59:33 -0500 Subject: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... Message-ID: <0JSC007H5IP0HR16@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bought a 4GB USB stick today, and guess what... > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:38:05 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > Either someone at Hynix has a sense of humour, or they have run right >> > out of IC codes and have come full circle to 2708 again. >> >> Several years ago, Motorola/IBM used the part number "7400" for some of their >> PowerPC chips. > >And of course a 4040 from Intel is a 4-bit microprocessor, from RCA it's >a 12 bit CMOS counter. I can never rememebr what the 4004 is in the >4000-eries CMOS, it's sufficiently rare that none of the data books I >have to hand list it. ur kiddin. Just prefix 74{c, hc, hct} and the 4xxx number and you get it's function and pinout. However for us who kept those old and valuable manuals like Signetics 8xxx series and the RCA databook series (my 1973 set was some 8 books) I do have data for RCA 4xxx and a lot of other oddities. Allison >-tony